Hi all,
Here is my contribution regarding the topic of SAWM.
1-Introduction
2-Definition
3-List of occurrences
4-Verses analysis and Context
5-Conclusion
1-Introduction
To make the topic short I did not copy all the verses mentioned, but I invite you to read them all.
To have an explanation of 2:187 please read http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607602.0
2-Definition
2.1 Lane Lexicon
**********************************************
He abstained, (Mb, TA,) in
an absolute sense: (Mqb:) this is the primary
signification: (TA:) [or] this is said to be the
signification in the proper language of the Arab:
(Mb :) and in the language of the law, (MNb,
TA,) he observed a particular kind of abstinence;
(Msb;) i. e. (TA) he abstained from food (S,
M, , TA) and drink (M, , TA) and Coit wu:
(M, ] :) and (8,* M, &c.) by a tropical applica.
tion, (TA,) ?from speech: (g,* M, Mgh, Mqb,-
1g, TA:)
or.,-" in the proper language of the
Arabs signifies a man's abstaining f rom eating:
and by a secondary application, a particular
serving of God [by fasting];
(Mgh;) [i.e.] the
abstaining from eating and drising and coitus
from daybreak to sunset: (KT:)
accord. to Kh,
it signifies [properly] the standing without work.
Etc etc
**************************************************
3. List of occurrences
2:184, 2:187, 2:196, 3:41, 4:92, 5:89, 19:10, 19:26, 33:35, 58:4
4. Verses analysis and Context
-2:184 to 2:188
*Shows the aim of syam is to become righteous (and definition of righteous= mutaqin is in 2:177)
*Shows a compensation for not doing sawm is to feed poors (strange cause in sunism you should not eat and drink but you have to feed poor people)
*Shows in 2:188 "to not eat" properties among yourselves wrongfully
- 4:92
*Shows if you kill someone, pay blood money, or free a captive, if you cannot you have to SAWM 2 consecutive "full moon"
- 5:87 to 5:89
*Shows again if you commit a fault you have either to feed 10 needy people, or free a slave or if you cannot make a SAWM during 3 days
- 19:26
*Shows about the SAWM of Mary not talking to people
- 58:3 to 58:4
*Show the same as above if you commit a fault you have to free a captive or do a SAWM of 2 consecutive full moon.
5-Conclusion
what we know
- Sawm helps to get righteous (2:183) and definition of righteous is in 2:177 (mutaqeen)
- Sawm is a compensation when not possible to free a captive or to feed a poor (4:92, 5:89, 58:4)
- At the opposite when you can not SAWM then you can compensate with feeding poor people ( feeding is the opposite of fasting)
So all in all SAWM is clearly a means of compensation when you can not afford to pay financially for a fault.
I have my conclusion and this is clearly stated in 2:177.
So what is your mean when you can not financially afford to pay for a fault?
Peace
Salam,
by the way for those you like to find the confirmation in the Bible, you can find it in the Book of Isaiah 58:3-7
3 ?Why have we fasted, and you see it not?
Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it??
Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure,1
and oppress all your workers.
4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight
and to hit with a wicked fist.
Fasting like yours this day
will not make your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is such the fast that I choose,
a day for a person to humble himself?
Is it to bow down his head like a reed,
and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him?
Will you call this a fast,
and a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 ?Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
Peace
Quote from: herbman on July 01, 2016, 04:27:31 AM
Salam,
by the way for those you like to find the confirmation in the Bible, you can find it in the Book of Isaiah 58:3-7
3 ?Why have we fasted, and you see it not?
Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it??
Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure,1
and oppress all your workers.
4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight
and to hit with a wicked fist.
Fasting like yours this day
will not make your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is such the fast that I choose,
a day for a person to humble himself?
Is it to bow down his head like a reed,
and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him?
Will you call this a fast,
and a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 ?Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
Peace
Peace, this is very much appreciated by me.
Praise be to god, the lord of the universe, and may he guide us all to the straight path.
Just a reminder,
Instead of looking when is Ramadan, people should first understand what is SAWM!!!
We did the same mistake with SALAT, before looking HOW MANY SALAT, the one should first understand WHAT is the SALAT.
Peace
Quote from: herbman on June 07, 2017, 09:44:54 AM
Just a reminder,
Instead of looking when is Ramadan, people should first understand what is SAWM!!!
We did the same mistake with SALAT, before looking HOW MANY SALAT, the one should first understand WHAT is the SALAT.
Peace
exactly i agree..
peace
Quote from: herbman on July 01, 2016, 04:27:31 AM
Salam,
by the way for those you like to find the confirmation in the Bible, you can find it in the Book of Isaiah 58:3-7
3 ?Why have we fasted, and you see it not?
Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it??
Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure,1
and oppress all your workers.
4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight
and to hit with a wicked fist.
Fasting like yours this day
will not make your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is such the fast that I choose,
a day for a person to humble himself?
Is it to bow down his head like a reed,
and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him?
Will you call this a fast,
and a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 ?Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
Peace
Salaam Bro
just to notice that the book called bible is a collection of books and that is absolutely not sure that all correspond to true prophets. Moreover, many of these books were probably written by other(s) that the "prophet" to who they were attributed.
Peace
Quote from: noshirk on June 23, 2017, 09:34:40 AM
Salaam Bro
just to notice that the book called bible is a collection of books and that is absolutely not sure that all correspond to true prophets. Moreover, many of these books were probably written by other(s) that the "prophet" to who they were attributed.
Peace
Salam human brother NoShirk if i remember correctly nowhere in the Bible does it call it self The Bible. (Unless im am mistaken)
Bible is a collection of all books that Jews and Christians consider holy.
Bible would be like including Quran and hadithbooks in one collection and calling it something.
From what I understand,Bible includes the Gospel and many fabrications (quite equivalent to hadiths). I think they also include the Psalms.
Im yet to find the Gospel though. Each time I search, I get something else.
Anyway, the whole thing is a big mess. Some texts are shared between Jews and Christians, and some arent. There are hundreds of terms such as old testament, new testament, tanakh. Then this tanakh is just another collection which includes the Torah.
Confusing
Salam
Did you deliberately leave out 2:185 Herbman?
That's like the most important part regarding fasting in Ramadan.
It clearly shows that we should fast in Ramadan not as expiation but as a means to magnify Allah to what He has guided us to, meaning the Quran which as 2:185 explains was revealed in the month of Ramadan.
Sure fasting has other purposes in other situation or circumstances but it is undeniable that is a right which must be observed as indicated during Ramadan as a means of being grateful to your Lord for guiding you. It is a commemoration of the revelation of His Quran.
In that respect your contribution was severely lacking
That is my contribution to your contribution
Peace
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 23, 2017, 01:01:29 PM
Salam
Did you deliberately leave out 2:185 Herbman?
That's like the most important part regarding fasting in Ramadan.
It clearly shows that we should fast in Ramadan not as expiation but as a means to magnify Allah to what He has guided us to, meaning the Quran which as 2:185 explains was revealed in the month of Ramadan.
Sure fasting has other purposes in other situation or circumstances but it is undeniable that is a right which must be observed as indicated during Ramadan as a means of being grateful to your Lord for guiding you. It is a commemoration of the revelation of His Quran.
In that respect your contribution was severely lacking
That is my contribution to your contribution
Peace
Dear HP_Tech,
Sorry for the late reply,
2:185 is the verse we use to define when is the SAWM.
My concern in this topic is what is the SAWM, and conclude that the "when" will be answered when we understand and know the "what".
To help the reader understand my view I will clarify:
Why do we have to SAWM?
2:187
It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah , so do not approach them.
Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous.
What is righteousness?
2:177
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in]
one who believes in Allah ,
the Last Day,
the angels,
the Book,
and the prophets
and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help],
and for freeing slaves;
[and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah;
[those who] fulfill their promise when they promise;
and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle.
Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
This is clear confirmation of what is written in Book of Isaiah 58:3-7.
2:177 clarify as well that personal meditation e.g. turning toward east and west is not what is righteousness thus will not help for SAWM.
In conclusion:
SAWM as per the Quran would mean "volunteering", help community, do good actions etc...
Volunteering is also a "financial alternative" when someone have no money to give!
The basic basic idea as I understand it is if you cannot give money, give your time.
And apply (act) what you have learned during your "learning process" (salat) and self development.
Peace.
YOU WAIT THIS ENTIRE TIME TO COME UP WITH THIS RESPONSE??!
:wow
(http://viralviralvideos.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2015/05/Alright-fine-Im-outta-here-GIF.gif)
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 23, 2017, 01:01:29 PM
Salam
Did you deliberately leave out 2:185 Herbman?
That's like the most important part regarding fasting in Ramadan.
It clearly shows that we should fast in Ramadan not as expiation but as a means to magnify Allah to what He has guided us to, meaning the Quran which as 2:185 explains was revealed in the month of Ramadan.
Sure fasting has other purposes in other situation or circumstances but it is undeniable that is a right which must be observed as indicated during Ramadan as a means of being grateful to your Lord for guiding you. It is a commemoration of the revelation of His Quran.
In that respect your contribution was severely lacking
That is my contribution to your contribution
Peace
Dear HP_Tech,
- Indeed The Quran has been revealed during "Shahru Ramadan" --but it is not the only event that occurred during "Shahru Ramadan", other events in the past occurred during that special night!
- Indeed "Sawm" during "Shahru Ramadan" is a commemoration of the Quran -- but not only, again Syam has been prescribed for people before "us", before The Quran!.
Now the question I rise to myself is why "SYAM", I could partially found an answer see https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607602.0
But again commemorating is not the only purpose, other purpose are described in 2:177, and I think they are the real purpose.
ps: Sorry for not replying before cause I was in a very busy period.
Peace
Don't worry about not replying on time.
It is alright. There is no problem here.
The only problem I have is with your conclusion.
Are you implying that we should not fast in Ramadan?
Quote from: HP_TECH on February 01, 2018, 10:22:15 AM
Don't worry about not replying on time.
It is alright. There is no problem here.
The only problem I have is with your conclusion.
Are you implying that we should not fast in Ramadan?
Personally No I am nit fasting anymore.
I am just studying the Quran and what I found is
SYAM is to become righteous (and definition of righteous= mutaqin is in 2:177)
Righteous is:
2:177
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in]
one who believes in Allah ,
the Last Day,
the angels,
the Book,
and the prophets
and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help],
and for freeing slaves;
[and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah;
[those who] fulfill their promise when they promise;
and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle.
Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
If fasting leads to become righteous then please explain?
Peace
Hello herbman,
I think ramadan is indeed a great tool of allah exercice to separate the spirit from the flesh.
However most people shall only get thirst and hunger from it, because they have missed the below point.
Cutting the supplies of food/water/sex is not the goal of fasting but it is only the mean in order to be able to see clearer into oneself and what is going on within. That is when you can purify yourself effectively.
It is a lot harder to do that when we have all the noise of life around us and we constantly respond to our instinctive desires as any animal would.
Abstention also sharpens our will, so that we can become more in control of ourselves, and not the other way around.
Ramadan is a cool month to try all that stuff out, but I think it is even cooler to try that at random days during the week.
"Many receive nothing from the fast except hunger and thirst." -Prophet Muhammad (Yes, I quoted a hadith)
Dear Cerberus
Thanks for your input.
Let me explain you my view regarding fasting.
Actualy fasting from drink is dangereous for your kidneys. Even more in warm countries like Arabia, risking dehydratation.
I have seen my self many misconduct regarding young and old people fasting even if dangereous for their health because of social pression.
Indeed fasting is a good think for health and meditation if you fast from food and keep drinking this is even a well know therapy that cures many diseas and is under used.
Peace
I made a video for you
https://youtu.be/CueDDyV7NDs
Quote from: HP_TECH on February 01, 2018, 09:56:43 PM
I made a video for you
https://youtu.be/CueDDyV7NDs
Hi HP_tech,
thanks for your clear answer, let me answer you claims in the video.
First the title:
Salaamu Alaykum Quran Alone Imams Please Stop inventing your own religions
I am not an Imam inventing my own religion, I try to find answers based on the Quran only.
I do not have any religion.
Religions are man made.
Secondly:
You say I am making a deduction based only on the last sentence from 2:187 Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous.
Remember 2:187 is not just a sentence out of context cause it is right in the context of sawm, same for 2:177!
Third:
You say fast is "abstaining" which I totally agree with.
But you claim it is abstaining from food, drink and sexual intercourse.
Please show me where in Quran it stated so?
Nowhere in the Quran it is written that sawm is abstaining from food and drink.
Instead It is clearly stated that sawm is abstaining from talking! see - 19:26
Four: Please read point 4 of my post Verses analisys and Context
Please explain how fasting from food and drink will help your victims from your fault?
If fasting from food and drink helps you find Peace for yourself so be it, but please explain how it would help the people you get faulty with!
- 4:92
*Shows if you kill someone, pay blood money, or free a captive, if you cannot you have to SAWM 2 consecutive "full moon"
- 5:87 to 5:89
*Shows again if you commit a fault you have either to feed 10 needy people, or free a slave or if you cannot make a SAWM during 3 days
- 58:3 to 58:4
*Show the same as above if you commit a fault you have to free a captive or do a SAWM of 2 consecutive full moon.
Five:
Please explain clearly why do you fast from food and drink?
Please avoid answer like because it is prescribed. I want to know the reason, why? It must have a clear reason behind.
Peace
Another one:
(http://imgur.com/vO1sHmy.gif)
Sorry it's loooooooong
https://youtu.be/Rb45t5kt6EY
Dear HP_Tech,
if you want to keep debating please write your arguments here.
This would be easier to interact than a video.
Thanks
Ok love you
Hello,
as a side note, this is my personal view on fasting.
When I was fasting in a muslim country, during the day and even when sun set approaches I use to avoid going out. The reason was because many people are let say quiet nervous, and a fight in the street was not so unusual.
This is in fact something quiet natural and scientificaly demonstrated
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/hanger-real-psychological-hangry-anger-hunger-food-blood-sugar-levels-hormones-nutrition-a8338786.html
Now you might say, ok but fasting is to control yourself etc etc...these people are just bad people.
OK Right but I can tell you sel control is not for every one!
Another side effect.
In European countries now a days I read an article saying that more and more young children in basic schools (from 6-12) come at school fasting!
This is again another misuse of fasting.
Now let me re-phrase my simple question:
Why do you abstain from eating and drinking? What is the goal, what does it bring to you?
Peace
No hate just love
Herbman