In Surah 5:6 this word KABAYNI appears, this is the ayah the mushriks call WUDHU, a word non existent in Al Quran.
In Surah 5:95 it says "hadyan balighal KABATI" correctly rendered "guided (by the) MATURITY/REACHING (the animals) ankle. Kafirs translate this as offerings reaching the cube, that's exactly it, today's kafirs still associate offerings to the cube with THE GOD, but of course they claim to being Muslim.
If you read Surahs 5:94-97 it's clearly discussing hunting/wildlife conservations, the laws and method of taking care of animals.
5:95 discusses if anyone kills animals then it's a like for a like, 2 witnesses judge the animals maturity and give an equivalent in recompence.
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kEb#(5:6:17)
You are right. 5:6 is totally misrepresented. While I do not have any good translation of the passage, merely having refuted a ritual concerning salateh means the passage does not make any sense. Also, a lot of the words are questionable when it comes to interpretation and I reached a totally different translation when I attempted to seriously decipher it. The original interpreters have inferred too much in a wild manner. It is among the worst interpretation acrobatics I have observed.
And there is no such thing as a (Pagan) pilgrimage anywhere to a "holy" site. No place is, by the way, holier than its inhabitants.
Salaam
Quote from: Nonmushrik on March 24, 2015, 10:12:33 AM
In Surah 5:6 this word KABAYNI appears, this is the ayah the mushriks call WUDHU, a word non existent in Al Quran.
In Surah 5:95 it says "hadyan balighal KABATI" correctly rendered "guided (by the) MATURITY/REACHING (the animals) ankle. Kafirs translate this as offerings reaching the cube, that's exactly it, today's kafirs still associate offerings to the cube with THE GOD, but of course they claim to being Muslim.
If you read Surahs 5:94-97 it's clearly discussing hunting/wildlife conservations, the laws and method of taking care of animals.
5:95 discusses if anyone kills animals then it's a like for a like, 2 witnesses judge the animals maturity and give an equivalent in recompence.
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kEb#(5:6:17)
Please clarify the following:
1) are you implying "hadyan" means "guiding" in its other occurrences also?
2) can you provide a classical Arabic dictionary source for the singular ankle?
3) using your meaning of kabaah can you provide us with your rendering of 5:97?
4) can you provide us with evidence that you are not a mushrik/kafir? (considering Quran says there are those think they are not but they are, see 12:106, 7:30, 6:22-24)
Thanks.
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=hdy#(2:2:6)
I don't accept sunni or yuksel/layth polytheist translations, such as their unity on animal offerings.
So 2 men should judge cattle and take it to the kaba temple, for what exactly?
Have you read 5:94-97 correctly, you don't agree there's illegal hunting of animals being discussed?
Are you 19 khalifa follower?
Your lack of response to any of my questions is disappointing.
I suggest you tone down your rhetoric, bear the forum rules in mind, and reflect on my question 4:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0
Peace.
I do not accept polytheist translators and interpreters of the Quran.
This includes polytheistic people such as edward lane, hans wehr, edip/layth, yusuf ali etc...
As far as I know I'm a Muslim I don't mix my beliefs with kafirs.
What makes you think I would accept these people, books etc...?
Politeness seems to be some kind of a sin for some people it seems.
Salaam
Imho it does not mean ankle but:
kaba
: trouble, pain [Heb keev, Aram k?b] Per kabe borrowed from Ara
5:95 is a recompense for the kaba/trouble/pain/grief done
Most likely this misunderstanding is caused by diacritic marks. I have no evidence for this though being the cause. All I know is this translation is the only one I find valid.
reference: https://www.academia.edu/4847281/Arabic_Etymological_Dictionary
Peace
Peace running like zebras
I'll study the link you sent me, thanks.
I'm not prepared to accept a new meaning of a word in which in 5:6 kabayni is ankle and 5:95/97 as being either trouble/pain and or cubic temple when from the same root, without any real morphing of the word.
Also from my understanding your agreeing that passages 5:94-97 is consistent in talking about hunting?
What trouble/pain is given to the wronged hunter as a recompense? Are you agreeing that cattle is the recompense but kabati in 5:95 is not the animals joints but the hunters trouble pain? You know when horse breeders rub and inspect the thighs/calfs/ankles of the horse? They make horse shoes to for the horses feet.
I'm only trying to understand clear consistent Quranic arabic.
Peace Nonmushrik.
You said:
I'm only trying to understand clear consistent Quranic arabic.
If you are still trying to understand clear consistent Qoran,why are you calling others - those who do not agree with your understanding- Kafirs?
Wait ,at least, until you have clear understanding, in case you regret your prejudgement?
It is better to say, for now," Peace be upon you brothers and sisters" like Qoran advises .
GOD bless you .
Peace.
Quote from: Nonmushrik on March 26, 2015, 05:08:28 PM
Peace running like zebras
I'll study the link you sent me, thanks.
I'm not prepared to accept a new meaning of a word in which in 5:6 kabayni is ankle and 5:95/97 as being either trouble/pain and or cubic temple when from the same root, without any real morphing of the word.
Also from my understanding your agreeing that passages 5:94-97 is consistent in talking about hunting?
What trouble/pain is given to the wronged hunter as a recompense? Are you agreeing that cattle is the recompense but kabati in 5:95 is not the animals joints but the hunters trouble pain? You know when horse breeders rub and inspect the thighs/calfs/ankles of the horse? They make horse shoes to for the horses feet.
I'm only trying to understand clear consistent Quranic arabic.
What I find in etymological resources is this:
ka?b
: cube [Amh kebbebe (enclose)] Per ka?b borrowed from Ara
ka?b
: heel [?]
kaba
: trouble, pain [Heb keev, Aram k?b] Per kabe borrowed from Ara
ka?ba : cube [ka?b] Hin kaba, Ind kaabah, Per ka?be borrowed from Ara
Relating this back to Quran:
5:6 l-kaʿbayni - genitive masculine dual noun
The noun being dual leaves no doubt what it is speaking about, next to its context it must mean ankles.
5:95
l-kaʿbati - genitive feminine proper noun
This is not a dual noun making it next to the context unlikely to be speaking about ankles. It's definitely describing a hunting/butchering situation, the normal recompense for such a thing can only be measured by the grief done. The size of the animal is not relevant, besides ankles have never been a measure for anything as far as I know (in contrary to eg elbows). Most likely this meaning is related to the hebrew aqeb whereas kaba is related to hebrew kaab. Kaab is mostly translated as pain, be it physical or non-physical. Aqeb means heel, ankle. When one violates the rules given to us for Ihram, we damage inflict pain/sorrow to ourselves.
My understanding summarized: if you kill an animal during Ihram - the recompense is an animal or expiation by feeding the needy or fasting. If the physical recompense is chosen over expiation, the offered recompense is judged wether it's sufficient to recompense the grief/pain/trouble being caused.
What is interesting here is Quran encourages the expiation over material recompense by making the material recompense more difficult. It has to pass the approval of judges, who judge if the recompense stands up to the grief it caused. There is no such process when expiation is chosen. This shows God is fully aware a material recompense does not guarantee any remorse of realization of the damage one has done oneself.
5:97 to me also speaks about the 'sorrows' rather then some cubic stone. Although I must admit I do not fully understand yet what is referred to with l-bayta. I have a feeling it may refer to the sorrows and the virtues (blessings and burdens) but so far I have no evidence for this.
I understand these verses only speak about what God expects if you commit the mistake of killing an animal during Ihram. 5:97 only defines this recompense to be a just one just like the other burdens one bears during Ihram are just. It's nowhere near an expectation to go butcher an animal. In contrary.
ps: I'm not urging you to accept any interpretation including mine. I'm sharing what I know and found out. I only hope it helps you understanding.
Peace
Kaaba, here could mean the authority/leader.
One of the good things about Quran, from my experience, is that if you try to insert an incorrect meaning into it, it usually gets exposed. Application of cross-reference, logic etc will help with this.
Of course, some dont bother with that.
Quote from: Nonmushrik on March 24, 2015, 10:12:33 AM
In Surah 5:6 this word KABAYNI appears, this is the ayah the mushriks call WUDHU, a word non existent in Al Quran.
In Surah 5:95 it says "hadyan balighal KABATI" correctly rendered "guided (by the) MATURITY/REACHING (the animals) ankle. Kafirs translate this as offerings reaching the cube, that's exactly it, today's kafirs still associate offerings to the cube with THE GOD, but of course they claim to being Muslim.
If you read Surahs 5:94-97 it's clearly discussing hunting/wildlife conservations, the laws and method of taking care of animals.
5:95 discusses if anyone kills animals then it's a like for a like, 2 witnesses judge the animals maturity and give an equivalent in recompence.
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kEb#(5:6:17)
Salam.
May I suggest you be more careful in using the word "kafir".
I believe Qur'an does not allow us the authority to question anyones faith as long as they offer us peace (4:94).
As far your proposition is concerned, I fully agree that the verse is about wildlife conservations, but I am not convinced about your proposed meaning of ka'ba yet - because "MATURITY/REACHING (the animals) ankle" does not make complete sense to me.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
Salamun Alaikum.
After a careful review of the potential range of meanings of the word "ka'ba", I am convinced that the English word "sanctuary" would be the closest appropriate translation. In other words, Ka'ba could be any enclosed area set out as a sanctuary.
Quote
Full Definition of SANCTUARY
1: a consecrated place: as a : the ancient Hebrew temple at Jerusalem or its holy of holies b (1) : the most sacred part of a religious building (as the part of a Christian church in which the altar is placed) (2) : the room in which general worship services are held (3) : a place (as a church or a temple) for worship
2a (1) : a place of refuge and protection (2) : a refuge for wildlife where predators are controlled and hunting is illegal b : the immunity from law attached to a sanctuary
(Ref: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sanctuary)
If one kills an animal within a prohibited sanctualy, the expiation should reach the same sanctuary (either to be released in the sanctuary or to be used as a feed for the wild animals/inhabitants of the sanctuary). This makes the most sense - both from a religious and "wildlife conservation" point of view.
So my translation for the verses now stand as follows:
Quote
5:95 O! Those who have put faith ? do not kill the (hunting) game while you are under prohibition. And whoever intentionally kills it among you, then repayment is similar to what he killed from the herd ? judged by a couple of impartial individuals among you ? an offering reaching the Sanctuary ; or an expiation feeding needy (ones); or compensation of that (in) siam - that he may taste the consequences of his deed. Allah pardons whatever has occurred ? but whoever goes back then Allah will take retribution from him - and Allah is Mighty Authority of Retribution.
5:96 Legitimized for you is the (hunted) game of the sea and its food as provision for you and for the carriages, while prohibited for you are the (hunted) games of the land as long as you are under prohibition. And be conscious of Allah ? the One to whom you will be gathered.
5:97 Allah has assigned the Sanctuary, as the sacred house, (as) an establishment for mankind ? and the sacred months and the offerings and the (decorative) circlets. That is so that you may know ? that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and that Allah is Knowledgeable of everything.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
peace arman, all,
You said:
QuoteKa'ba could be any enclosed area set out as a sanctuary.
And:
Quote5:97 Allah has assigned the Sanctuary, as the sacred house
In other words:
kaaba = any enclosed area / sanctuary = sacred house
You may be interested to know that I make the case in the following article that kaaba refers to an area also:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
Quote from: Wakas on April 09, 2015, 05:09:34 AM
peace arman, all,
You said:
And:
In other words:
kaaba = any enclosed area / sanctuary = sacred house
You may be interested to know that I make the case in the following article that kaaba refers to an area also:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
Thanks brother Wakas.
It is indeed comforting to know that others have come to the same conclusion using their own independent analysis.
BTW, would you ever consider producing a more simplified summary of your understanding of the concepts of hajj and masjid al haram? Perhaps in the format of a translation (of relevant verses) with appropriate footnotes? Everytime I try to read through your analysis I seem to get lost in what it could be and what it could not be, the final conclusion continues to remain obscure.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
So you guys are offering animals in a sanctuary and call this Islam?
Again, I point you to the ambiguous root words that exist for this letter combination, meaning "trouble, pain" which is a normal measure for any recompense. Offering animals in a sanctuary is not a translation I'm willing to accept.
Peace
Quote from: runninglikezebras on April 10, 2015, 07:12:11 AM
So you guys are offering animals in a sanctuary and call this Islam?
Again, I point you to the ambiguous root words that exist for this letter combination, meaning "trouble, pain" which is a normal measure for any recompense. Offering animals in a sanctuary is not a translation I'm willing to accept.
Peace
Salam runninglikezebras:
The verses lead me to the understanding that I cannot hunt prohibited wild animals in a sanctuary (i.e. hunting restricted area) - which can be any animal sanctuary established at any place by the appropriate authority to preserve worldlife. If someone intentionally hunts in that area he would be liable to purchase equivalent animals and replace in the sanctuary.
The equivalance will be decided by 2 imparial individuals.
Expiation by feeding the needy or by siam are other alternative options.
On the other hand imagine someone kills a tiger in a sanctuary / hunting restricted area. Buying and replacing the tiger would not be feasible. It may be an option that instead of a tiger the hunter is made to donate equivalent number from domestic animals (e.g. say 7 cows) which will be used to feed tigers in the sanctuary. This is another possible approach to address the situation.
This is what I am getting from the verses. You are welcome to excercise your judgement.
Regards,
Arman
Quote from: Armanaziz on April 10, 2015, 02:38:45 AM
Everytime I try to read through your analysis I seem to get lost in what it could be and what it could not be, the final conclusion continues to remain obscure.
May i ask if you completed reading the article? if so how many times did you read it?
Quote from: Wakas on April 14, 2015, 12:55:31 PM
May i ask if you completed reading the article? if so how many times did you read it?
Salam Wakas.
How many times am I supposed to read the article to get what it says? I can tell you that I have given my sincere effort to understand your article - but it is possible that it was not enough.
I do not want to pick a debate with you here. I was curious about your view and your current article seemed too obscure to me - so I asked if a simpler summary is available or can be made available. (Are you suggesting Hajj can be conducted at any place? Is it mandatory? Can any conference on discussing God suffice as Hajj? Does the existing "Hujj" ritual at KSA suffice your definition of Hujj?- questions like this keep poping up in mind but I do not get any clear answer.) If you do not have time for any further clarification or you believe the existing article is the best you can offer - fair enough. Too bad for me that I didn't get it.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
Peace all,
It seems to me that there are two issues at hand here.
The first is knowledge, the second decorum.
The first issue relates to a fundamental misapprehension of the understanding of the Arabic text of the Quran, and to the whimsical fancies to which one's self betakes for its own satisfaction. A blatant disregard for reason and for evidence is profoundly indecorous of rational creatures. I would go so far, in this case, as to allege a forgery of significations; waman 'aẓlamu mimmani -ftarā 'ala -llāhi kadhibā?!
The second issue relates to a readiness in the use of sensitive appellations and their ineffectualness in furthering the objective pursuit of truth. One's labelling someone a mushrik or a kāfir would depend entirely on one's definition of shirk and of kufr. And if one has not been so liberal as to provide a definition of shirk or of kufr, then to what extent is one's appellation tenable in the first instance?!
If neither knowledge nor decorum are acknowledged as fundamental behavioural operators in the objective pursuit of truth, then two implications arise. The first is that debate cannot continue if assertions are readily imposed as objective truths with no care for reason or for evidence. The second is that it will be incumbent upon the protagonist, in my view, to desist for his own sake; perchance he alienates those to whom he so eagerly appeals, on account of his unrefined language and his unseemly disposition.
w/salaam Arman,
The reason I asked the question was that a summary is given at the end of my articles. A reader can simply read the summary if they wish.
The questions you asked are all discussed in the articles, sometimes explicitly:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
However, I will answer in brief:
Quote from: Armanaziz on April 14, 2015, 10:20:04 PM
(Are you suggesting Hajj can be conducted at any place?
Any place that fulfils the criteria as laid out in Quran, see summary.
Is it mandatory?
If such an event exists in the present day then perhaps yes.
Can any conference on discussing God suffice as Hajj?
No, only if it fulfils the criteria as laid out in Quran, e.g. is there a mechanism at this conference/commemoration/symposium for feeding the poor/needy etc.
Does the existing "Hujj" ritual at KSA suffice your definition of Hujj?
No, unless one avoided the non-Quranic aspects AND had no issue with the cuboid called Kaabah, i.e. one does not view it as a pagan symbol or idolatry. If this is the case, then in terms of practicality, one could avoid Traditional hajj time in KSA and simply go there any time, e.g. "umrah" time and undertake their commemoration as per Quran.
Thanks Wakas. these short answers make your conclusion much more clearer to me now. I have no further questions for you.
May Allah guide us both to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
سلام
Sorry to excavate that thread again but there are some things that are not clear for me. I'm of a certainty that a sacred temple is needed as a proxy for GOD and the worshipers - any faith had a central House which was sanctified and kept clean so that the energy of purity could be felt in its presence and this is the most certain place where one could experience GOD or the Angels (like Maryam or Zakariyya did). This was the whole idea of Solomons Temple and the Masjid al-Haram+Kaaba (today the meaning of a holy place is completely distorted by the capitalist/satanic saudi government). But concerning the leg-joint, it does make sense IF you can truly measure the age of the game by it. I didn't find any information to proof that you can measure the age of an animal while observing the leg-joint. First time i heard about the leg-joint was while i read through Sam Gerrans' translation which i find meanwhile very inaccurate and subjective. It is also very fuzzy if you read further in his translation of the Qur'an. Did anyone made some independent research and found something concerning this? Anyone here who hunts and knows that to be true?
Now i know for a fact that the original Haram was located somehere else. But so did Solomons Temple. The accumulation of pure energy and the intention to sanctify certain locations is what makes a place holy and not when you turn it into a cash cow. Thats why it was so important for Muhammad to get rid of all those Idols in Haram - as this building also represents the Haram of the Soul. But this is only my understanding of the whole al-Masjid al-Haram topic.
الله اعلم