I wrote this on another forum, and was addressing non-Muslims so may have used a slightly different language and approach in these posts:
"They aren't from other dimensions or even from outer space. Throughout history mankind has been in communion with another group of Earthlings that are made out of a different material than us. Instead of being made out of carbon matter they are made out of plasma (ionized gas) mostly among other things. They can be seen with the naked eye and are not magical, but their membrane appears like a mist often, and if one looks closely it almost appears as if static is bouncing around, I call it something like "static rain" because it almost looks like its raining inside, but its not rain, those are their little particles bouncing around. If they speed up their vibration somehow or condense they can also illuminate into the famous balls of light that have been seen around the world long before any UFO ideas. They were long communicated with people, and people sought their protection, favor, and help. The old families were often making pacts with these "faeries" and "elves" and "daemons" and "jinn" or whatever else one might wish to call them. They are entirely natural beings, they feed on flammable materials like methane, alcohol, fumes from waste and rot, and can easily be found in any forest or even parks without any trouble and its easier to see them on heat vision. These are the "entities" who are often befriended by the various occultists as well as the ones who help and guide some of the "elite". The character of "Satan" was supposed to be one of these people, before now coming to mean the source of all evil, he was just one of these beings, they move like the aurora so were often associated with serpents/dragons/nagas due to their whispy snake-like form that moves like flame at times.
They are not all united, have diverse beliefs, can not control people or do anything really other than whisper if they are literally in proximity to people, but most people don't realize their presence or notice the mist or anything and they can stretch their membrane out so thin that they are practically invisible, and can seep through cracks and doors and whatever and are pretty versatile in that sense and are often used as spies for those who are friends with them and feed them.
Among them are "supremacists" who dislike the human race and seek their destruction or harming them in various ways or to enslave them and often these view themselves as "higher beings" or promote the idea that they are superior beings when they are just different.
I've encountered them myself, both the gentle and the more agitated, and not alone but with witnesses and photographs and everything. One was a blustering cloud like one that was highly agitated after some fireworks the day prior and was really aggressive about touching and sucking lol was going back and forth on my arm and lifting up all the hairs and they feel like feathers almost because of the static electricity.
The others were just mists that came due to attraction to rotting food fumes they enjoyed, and another was a pinkish tinted one that was also looking for food which is what they are mainly always doing.
Humans are very evil, but many humans have made allies with these creatures too, and many of these creatures can be evil as well just like people, though like the majority of human beings, they seem to be mostly interested in day to day survival and sucking up the gasses they survive on than actually harming anyone or even communicating with anyone. Some people have supposedly long standing pacts with these beings and some of their families, but there is no real magical or mystical component to their honoring such things, which makes them as frightening in a sense as any human being.
This video shows some with night vision and the trail they leave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkNBOHKCu8#t=464
Here is one smelling some gas maybe, if it isn't a real case, its at least consistent with what they do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE_C1FXRo20
Here is a funny condensed form (other funny forms can be like one legged hopping looking things which were also mentioned throughout history, but these are just various forms and levels of condensation of the same type of plasma based creature, their abilities and form is generally due to what they have been devouring and how it changes based on that though there are possibly other factors for how they decide to manipulate their membranes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a1nDOPPXLM
Here is a nice big dragon and you get to see the particles floating in it pretty closely too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3t_8a-fYc
Anyway, people are highly deceived if they believe any of the lies told about these creatures or which they might even tell about themselves (maybe some of them believe these lies as well) but they are not from outerspace, the other worlds, any dimensions, they are entirely Earthly, they feed off real things not "energies" but actual fumes and chemical gasses. They have no access to anything spiritual or spiritual knowledge any more than any human being, they aren't superior, they are just different creatures made of something different than most carbon based life forms and they are likely older than human beings in regard to their evolution.
You can easily meet them or encounter them, though it is probably best not to get too involved with them. A good book that gives some clues regarding them is the "Secret Commonwealth" but often people go off into wrong ideas.
They can be killed, harmed, etc, but attacking them makes them highly aggressive, their mode of attacking is basically pushing, throwing things, or trying to pierce people or throwing things really sharp and fast, but some of them are more skilled at that than others. Some are adept at traveling at tremendous speeds, and they can also carry extremely heavy things or move them at times. The ancient King Solomon was said to have many of these in his service which assisted him in engineering projects and other missions.
Generally, those sorcerers who were not just messing with people, were those who had befriended these creatures and used them to frighten people or appear to have magic abilities or to spy on them so that the sorcerer appeared to have some great knowledge, but ultimately its all just trickery and nothing magical, using the ignorance of people regarding these creatures to manipulate people, and such is likely still done to this day, but the majority of these creatures are harmless and just stick to themselves in their own places and communities and families, often out in the wilderness, nearby food sources which is anywhere with ample rot and decay or gas production for them to feed on, so forests, graveyards, garbage dumps, swamps, etc."
_______________
"Shaitan doesn't have horns really in the way we know horns, because he is made out of "smokeless fire" which is by definition "plasma" (fire is ionized gas called plasma), while we are made out of carbon matter (which is the reasoning Satan gave in mockery as to his being a superior being)."
"I use the term Satan in multiple ways based on its meaning.
The Qur'an says Satan is a jinn (the term means hidden, and the root is also found in the word Jannah which is the term for paradise like a "hidden garden, hidden in the future).
The Qur'an says that the jinn race are made of "smokeless fire" which is basically plasma by definition. The Qur'an says humans are made out of carbon matter or "mud/clay", and Satan was basically a racist supremacist who wanted his race to be the dominant race on Earth rather than the humans and basically said that he is better than him for the silly racist reason that fire is better than mud. For his racism, he was sent away. His name was said to be Iblis, which comes from a word meaning "he despaired" or "he lost hope", and in his losing hope in himself, he became determined to take down as many humans as possible (instead of simply repenting as Adam later demonstrates in the Qur'an).
Iblis prayed instead to be reprieved and kept alive until the Day of Judgment. Some call him Sanat Kumara meaning the Eternally Youthful.
Then God set up a demonstration which would reveal to mankind (Adam and Eve) the nature of Iblis's tactic which lasts to this day.
An arbitrary "harm" or "wrongdoing" was set up "that which is forbidden, or would lead to harm", and Iblis then comes and does the following:
He convinces the people to expose themselves so that they are vulnerable, then he makes them feel shame about their nature or their bodies and makes them feel as if they are not good enough and inferior, then he offers them a "cure" to the fake problem he just convinced them of, and that "cure" just happens to be something that will get them in trouble or lead them to harm.
Adam falls for this "snake oil salesman" trick, but asks for forgiveness, and then continues his task on Earth along with his wife, and Iblis is sent along with them but he was exposed and his trick was made known.
To this day, this tactic of Iblis is used, to make people exposed and vulnerable (naked), to shame them and make them feel like they are missing something, then selling them the cure for their supposed problem, which is to lead them to harm to prove the point of Iblis, that the humans are a bad choice and bad people and are like the mud they are made of, the scum of the Earth.
In the Qur'an, there are many clues provided about the jinn, and in one section a jinn is recorded and this is what they talk about:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/1/default.htm
The jinn are not really totally "unseen" but can be difficult to see when they are stretched into a fine mist, or people don't know about them so they can't identify when they are around, but they are visible to the naked eye and not magical really but made of real material just like humans are made of real material and bound to "scientific laws" generally, the jinn are natural creatures made of plasma (but also made of other things possibly just as humans are made of other things besides clay and water).
They are not difficult to find or see once you know what to look for and how they look generally, as I show in the link I provided in the other post."
_______________
Oh God. Jinn as a supernatural being is just plain superstition. Jinn is a life perception, notably being faithless and not a type of creation. It is similar to the Gens of Judaism and Gentiles in English which the Jews use in reference to a non-Jew due to their arrogance.
A person who is not sanctioned or in affiliation with God is a Jinn, no matter Shaitaan or not. And a Jinn can potentially become with faith given their individual willpower and efforts. However it takes a reformation of their whole lifestyle, to attain a spiritual ascension and depth.
Faith and harmony with you
Thank you for your contribution, I appreciate it, do you believe the Qur'an is misunderstood or that the Arabic has been added to or corrupted? The Qur'an makes reference to the jinn having abilities which humans do not have, and says that not all of the jinn are disbelievers, and says they are made of "smokeless fire" and Iblis says of himself that he is made of fire while humankind (Adam) is made of mud.
I'd love to know your explanation for all these? The idea of these creatures "daemons made of aer" where common around the whole world generally, and in Hebrew they are referenced when "ob and ovoth" is mentioned, those with "familiar spirits" and also is where the idea of the "genie in the bottle" seems to have come from, since apparently the idea was that they were kept in a bottle or a wine skin.
Thank you again for replying to my messages, and I look forward to your in depth explanation.
Where does it say that not all Jinns are faithless?
If you refer to the Jinns who encounter Quran it does not say they have faith but only that they are touched by its passages. Even a faithless person can be touched by quite a few of undistorted passages. Perhaps they become with faith after the encounter, if they make a realization.
To say they are made of this or that is just playing around with the poor Arabic words. A Jinn could be a family friend of yours who lacks faith.
Like I said, it is probably a related word to the Gen or Gentiles of the Jews rather than some supernatural being made of "smokeless fire".
However, it does not say that every Jinn needs to be (like) Shaitaan but they can be servants like Jinns were in service to Solomon in he narration. It is that they lack spiritual ascension and are thus limited in the depth of thinking, such as the narrative about the Jinn who says that he can bring down the rule of the "Queen of the South" fast while the one who was blessed with Knowledge (spiritual depth) could bring it down before one could make a blink with the eye.
Salaam
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 06, 2015, 10:07:52 AM
Where does it say that not all Jinns are faithless?
If you refer to the Jinns who encounter Quran it does not say they have faith but only that they are touched by its passages. Even a faithless person can be touched by quite a few of undistorted passages. Perhaps they become with faith after the encounter, if they make a realization.
To say they are made of this or that is just playing around with the poor Arabic words. A Jinn could be a family friend of yours who lacks faith.
Like I said, it is probably a related word to the Gen or Gentiles of the Jews rather than some supernatural being made of "smokeless fire".
However, it does not say that every Jinn needs to be (like) Shaitaan but they can be servants like Jinns were in service to Solomon in he narration. It is that they lack spiritual ascension and are thus limited in the depth of thinking, such as the narrative about the Jinn who says that he can bring down the rule of the "Queen of the South" fast while the one who was blessed with Knowledge (spiritual depth) could bring it down before one could make a blink with the eye.
Salaam
The Surah commonly entitled "Al-Jinn" has believing Jinn in it.
They are not supernatural beings. It pretty clearly compares materials when referring to Jinn and Mankind, and refers to Jinn as distinct from Mankind, by saying things like many of the Jinn and Mankind will be punished, are disbelievers, stuff like that. Why is it saying "many of the mankind and mankind" or specify when materials are being mentioned the differentiation between "smokeless fire" and "mud/clay"?
Of course, the Qur'an only confirms what is in reality, so you might believe in jinn had you encountered them directly and seen them, they are just another type of creature like human beings are a certain type of creature, I even showed some video clips so you can get an idea of what they are like in real life.
In the Qur'an they are described as having at times incredible powers, like how the one brought the throne before Solomon very quickly, and they assisted with other things and were mentioned as having abilities that humans don't have, such as in the Surah about Jinn, they fly up into the sky and things.
Anyway, to answer your question though:
6:130
O species of Jinn and mankind, had the messengers not come to you, from among yourselves, who used to relate My verses to you, and used to warn you of the encounter of this your day?. They will say, .We testify against ourselves. The worldly life had deceived them, and they will testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
7:179
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
72:13
And as for us, since we have listened to the Guidance, we have accepted it: and any who believes in his Lord has no fear, either of a short (account) or of any injustice.
72:14
'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah), and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct:
51:56
I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
41:29
And those who were ungrateful would say: Our Lord! Cause us to see those who caused us to go astray among jinn and humankind. We will lay them both beneath our feet so that they become of the lowest.
15:26
AND, INDEED, We have created man out of sounding clay, out of dark-slime transmuted
15:27
And the Jinn did We create before them from a fiery blast of fervently hot wind.
Jinn were created before humans, that is why Iblis was around before Adam.
7:12
He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud.
___________
There are many more clues in the Qur'an that have indicated to people that these are not human beings referred to, and the belief in these creatures exists around the entire world. If you want to see them, you can check out the videos I posted to see what you think. They aren't entirely hard to find, though people aren't too familiar with them anymore.
Harmony be with you,
There is a grammatical error which makes you think this. But the sentence(s) is/are not supposed to say Humans and Jinns.
There are no superstitious beings called Jinns which are made of a different matter than humans. In fact the reason you think there are different substances in this universe is because you are deluded into thinking that. The universe is mere energy. And fire is a consequential reaction and not an element and thus no substance.
Please brethren, we have to employ logic based upon what we know. And science can help us even of humans know but little.
Have faith
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 07, 2015, 07:37:55 AM
Harmony be with you,
There is a grammatical error which makes you think this. But the sentence(s) is/are not supposed to say Humans and Jinns.
There are no superstitious beings called Jinns which are made of a different matter than humans. In fact the reason you think there are different substances in this universe is because you are deluded into thinking that. The universe is mere energy. And fire is a consequential reaction and not an element and thus no substance.
Please brethren, we have to employ logic based upon what we know. And science can help us even of humans know but little.
Have faith
I'm not saying that there are "superstitious beings", I'm saying there are creatures created by Allah, what are your views on angels and angels having wings?
The existence of "plasma" is a scientific thing, it is what "fire" is as well and also lightning, it is called "ionized gas".
We are not made of mud (carbon matter) only, and the main problem is you just don't believe in what you haven't seen or experienced perhaps, but the jinn are usually referred to along with mankind and then also other animals, like when mentioning the armies of Solomon having animals as part of it. Surely the speaking of a bird, and the communication to Solomon of an ant, and having sway over the winds, and having a throne brought to him by a jinn in an instant and other things are all superstitious sounding matters.
What is your view of the Qur'an? Is the Qur'an an important book to you? If so, why? I'm genuinely curious.
Certainly the Qur'an is full of things like a staff being turned into a snake and back, a voice from a burning bush, and other things, though the jinn are not even described as supernatural but a creation made before the humankind. What is Iblis? Is Iblis a human being? Is Iblis an angel? What is an angel?
Why does the Qur'an make a point about believing in the "unseen"?
Generations of Arabic grammarians and Semitic language linguists to this day have all misunderstood this word as pertaining to a race along with mankind?
Feel free to share with me all your ideas in this thread! It may help others to come to your understanding as well!
I once met a person who was a radical seeming follower of Hadith who surprised me by saying the Angels were natural elements and not what seems to be described in the English translations of the Qur'an.
There seem to be a wide variety of beliefs out there, but I showed some verses to show that the jinn can be believers, that the jinn are associated with being made of fire while humans are differentiated from jinn as being made of mud, and so on. Of course, these could all just be repeated and numerous translation errors, which you can explain probably, though the Jews understood this idea of "familiar spirits" the idea existed as the "demons" and "daemons" in the New Testament as well, and its a generally well attested to concept in the world, and though it might often sound superstitious in those contexts, the Qur'an is speaking about something natural, not superstitious or supernatural as far as I can tell.
Well, fire is not its own element on its own. It is a result of various conditions, and it "eats" elements to "survive". Nothing can be made of fire.
One way or another you can say it is like saying something is made of electricity.
What you said is when you speak of elements which are ionized and something is so hot it is plasma. It is yet not a different matter but a condition.
Traditional interpretation says angels have wings etc etc. I have not researched this phenomenon myself. However I do not see that they have a physical form at all but are ethereal beings.
Salaam
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 07, 2015, 09:11:05 AM
I'm not saying that there are "superstitious beings", I'm saying there are creatures created by Allah, what are your views on angels and angels having wings?
The existence of "plasma" is a scientific thing, it is what "fire" is as well and also lightning, it is called "ionized gas".
We are not made of mud (carbon matter) only, and the main problem is you just don't believe in what you haven't seen or experienced perhaps, but the jinn are usually referred to along with mankind and then also other animals, like when mentioning the armies of Solomon having animals as part of it. Surely the speaking of a bird, and the communication to Solomon of an ant, and having sway over the winds, and having a throne brought to him by a jinn in an instant and other things are all superstitious sounding matters.
What is your view of the Qur'an? Is the Qur'an an important book to you? If so, why? I'm genuinely curious.
Certainly the Qur'an is full of things like a staff being turned into a snake and back, a voice from a burning bush, and other things, though the jinn are not even described as supernatural but a creation made before the humankind. What is Iblis? Is Iblis a human being? Is Iblis an angel? What is an angel?
Why does the Qur'an make a point about believing in the "unseen"?
Generations of Arabic grammarians and Semitic language linguists to this day have all misunderstood this word as pertaining to a race along with mankind?
Feel free to share with me all your ideas in this thread! It may help others to come to your understanding as well!
I once met a person who was a radical seeming follower of Hadith who surprised me by saying the Angels were natural elements and not what seems to be described in the English translations of the Qur'an.
There seem to be a wide variety of beliefs out there, but I showed some verses to show that the jinn can be believers, that the jinn are associated with being made of fire while humans are differentiated from jinn as being made of mud, and so on. Of course, these could all just be repeated and numerous translation errors, which you can explain probably, though the Jews understood this idea of "familiar spirits" the idea existed as the "demons" and "daemons" in the New Testament as well, and its a generally well attested to concept in the world, and though it might often sound superstitious in those contexts, the Qur'an is speaking about something natural, not superstitious or supernatural as far as I can tell.
Exactly, Jinn are natural. Just like we are natural. It's interesting to analyze the metaphor of the distinct creation of Jinn and humans. If we look into what humans are made of we know from a scientific point of view we are made of heavy elements that are created by stars/supernovas. The calcium in our bones is the same calcium that is being emitted by stars. These elements are created in supernovas by a process called fusion fueled by hydrogen and helium.
Hydrogen and helium themselves were created before the heavier elements like calcium. 3 minutes after the big bang the lighter elements helium and hydrogen formed which in turn formed the stars.
It's remarkable Quran tells us exactly this. The Jinn were created before Humans from fire (lighter elements), while man was created afterwards from mud/clay (heavier elements). The chronology is spot on. The metaphor towards heavy and light elements is spot on.
I can't tell what Jinn exactly are. But I can tell you they are made from lighter elements and predate mankind making them distinctly different from man.
Peace
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 07, 2015, 09:29:40 AM
Well, fire is not its own element on its own. It is a result of various conditions, and it "eats" elements to "survive". Nothing can be made of fire.
One way or another you can say it is like saying something is made of electricity.
What you said is when you speak of elements which are ionized and something is so hot it is plasma. It is yet not a different matter but a condition.
Traditional interpretation says angels have wings etc etc. I have not researched this phenomenon myself. However I do not see that they have a physical form at all but are ethereal beings.
Salaam
Why is that not considered superstitious though? Why isn't the idea of these "ethereal beings" not superstitious seeming to you (if it isn't)?
The Qur'an specifies "smokeless fire" as a description for some essence from which these things before humans were made, were made, while humans are said to be made of "mud" and also made of "water", both are not entirely true statements, but something is being referred to in them.
35:1
All praise is due to Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, the Maker of the angels, messengers flying on wings, two, and three, and four; He adds to creation what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 07, 2015, 10:02:59 AM
Why is that not considered superstitious though? Why isn't the idea of these "ethereal beings" not superstitious seeming to you (if it isn't)?
The Qur'an specifies "smokeless fire" as a description for some essence from which these things before humans were made, were made, while humans are said to be made of "mud" and also made of "water", both are not entirely true statements, but something is being referred to in them.
35:1
All praise is due to Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, the Maker of the angels, messengers flying on wings, two, and three, and four; He adds to creation what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.
Please view my earlier post in which I explain this to be a reference to lighter and heavier elements. The smokeless fire being referred to in Quran is of course the early state of the universe after Big Bang, consisting of clouds of gas (hydrogen and helium). By the effects of gravity these clouds formed into stars.
Yes, but all translations are interpretations. You supplied me with a translation.
Humans are also ethereal beings, but we are assigned to fleshly bodies, which are like a jail. However our soul is abstract and ethereal and once we live no more we free the spirit from the flesh (give up the spirit).
The angels can be assigned to bodies in disguise, but are most likely ethereal (bodyless) when not assigned to a body. If they are fixed beings with bodies and with wings like you say, then this is their physical limitation as well. Their body needs to turn somewhere if they loose their spirit from that shell to disguise themselves in a humanly body. If angels have physical bodies then it is slightly awkward for them to transport themselves and they must obey to the laws of physics.
And in the same kind of translations you provide me with God has a throne and will come to Earth with the angels in swarms at the end of days, according to that interpretation.
But there is a spiritual realm which that you cannot see because you cannot see through this illusion, even if you can acquire knowledge of how things really are. When you die you will see through the illusion. You could not see it because you were locked inside a beast body.
Perceptive enough people may be able to "feel" beyond this illusion though.
If there are evil spirits that are ethereal, they are not the only Jinns in that case. Jinn is a person who is not under the grace of God so to say.
Evil or good spirits do not work the way we understand it and are likely not bound to space or time as to give them a definition as per how we perceive the world.
But angels nor we in the next life will not be restricted by physical bodies. Angels may be a prior kind of souls who have passed another test. The beast you is not really you but only the spiritual part of you is. The beast (physical body) will die and you will attain a spirit form.
If one is wise in this life they begin to separate the spirit from the flesh now already instead of indulging in it, because it seems that the ones who do not manage this have a lesser accommodation than the ones who do. This is JUST an illusion and it will not work this way later. And it is all about spiritual assimilation and to grow spiritually.
Have faith
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 07, 2015, 11:43:39 AM
Yes, but all translations are interpretations. You supplied me with a translation.
Humans are also ethereal beings, but we are assigned to fleshly bodies, which are like a jail. However our soul is abstract and ethereal and once we live no more we free the spirit from the flesh (give up the spirit).
The angels can be assigned to bodies in disguise, but are most likely ethereal (bodyless) when not assigned to a body. If they are fixed beings with bodies and with wings like you say, then this is their physical limitation as well. Their body needs to turn somewhere if they loose their spirit from that shell to disguise themselves in a humanly body. If angels have physical bodies then it is slightly awkward for them to transport themselves and they must obey to the laws of physics.
And in the same kind of translations you provide me with God has a throne and will come to Earth with the angels in swarms at the end of days, according to that interpretation.
But there is a spiritual realm which that you cannot see because you cannot see through this illusion, even if you can acquire knowledge of how things really are. When you die you will see through the illusion. You could not see it because you were locked inside a beast body.
Perceptive enough people may be able to "feel" beyond this illusion though.
If there are evil spirits that are ethereal, they are not the only Jinns in that case. Jinn is a person who is not under the grace of God so to say.
Evil or good spirits do not work the way we understand it and are likely not bound to space or time as to give them a definition as per how we perceive the world.
But angels nor we in the next life will not be restricted by physical bodies. Angels may be a prior kind of souls who have passed another test. The beast you is not really you but only the spiritual part of you is. The beast (physical body) will die and you will attain a spirit form.
If one is wise in this life they begin to separate the spirit from the flesh now already instead of indulging in it, because it seems that the ones who do not manage this have a lesser accommodation than the ones who do. This is JUST an illusion and it will not work this way later. And it is all about spiritual assimilation and to grow spiritually.
Have faith
Thank you. Why do you think the laws of physics must be obeyed, when the snake was turned into the staff and the angels said Allah only says "Be" and it is? This is all information, it can change easily, the throne can come down, it doesn't mean that anything is necessarily visibly on it. What is an ethereal thing? It is unseen but has some limitations, an invisible set of limitations or "form"? We are just experience, we are "empty" in a sense, there is only the information we are receiving, same as an angel might receive information or a jinn. Just a few months ago you weren't sure about the Jinn, how did you become so sure now that its a reference to a certain kind of disbeliever or whatever, when the Qur'an even mentions believers among them? I'm more concerned about how just a few months ago you were more open seeming and have since strongly decided this thing.
Do you read the Qur'an completely, repeatedly? How do you practice your system? Your ideas at times seem to match up well with certain Gnostic ideas, like the idea of being trapped within a material body while we are ethereal beings, which Yoda says "crude matter" and whatever, but you seem to believe in sciences as if sciences aren't just an illusion as well, that if Allah wills, some information doesn't have to fit neatly into the "laws of physics" which are just laws Allah makes up anyway. The Qur'an repeatedly shows examples of how Allah can defy any such things easily, since its all information which Allah can change in an instant like turning the staff into a snake and the snake into a staff, it was to demonstrate that these things do not have to accord to any system or sciences or laws, the only law is what Allah says to "Be" and it is.
The jinn are mentioned alongside humanity repeatedly, the root of the word comes from "hidden", its the same root used for words like Jannah, implying a "hidden garden" type idea probably.
How is it that these things supposedly made of "smokeless fire" (and what is the point of it mentioning that repeatedly in the Qur'an if they are humans), are mentioned being made before the humankind? Why are they mentioned apart from humankind? Why are you so convinced of your theory? Did you see the videos I posted even? You can even see them in there.
What we are, what everything is, is information, we are experience, we are experiencers of information, whatever information God makes for us is what we "know" and "are", so the ethereal bodies (is there some science regarding them as well?), are they anything if they have no body? They would only be what we are currently, nothing but information input, experiencing information that God is creating for us, whatever it might be.
I again want to stress how the creation of Jinn and human correlates with the events of big bang. Before helium was formed in the very early beginning after big bang the universe was massively hot. Light was not seperated from matter. In fact matter didn't even exist. In a very short time frame the universe expanded massively and cooled down a little eventually resulting in light being seperated from matter and the formation of atoms.
The background noise scientists measure still today from big bang is an echo from this moment during the big bang. In fact before these atoms were formed the entire universe was transparent. Hidden.
Now compare this to the hidden Jinn being created before material man.
Is it superstitious to believe Jinn are hidden creatures seperate from humans? No, it requires as much superstition as to believe this whole universe at one point was in such a state.
Quote from: runninglikezebras on January 07, 2015, 10:22:16 AM
Please view my earlier post in which I explain this to be a reference to lighter and heavier elements. The smokeless fire being referred to in Quran is of course the early state of the universe after Big Bang, consisting of clouds of gas (hydrogen and helium). By the effects of gravity these clouds formed into stars.
The jinn look like auroras in many ways like the aurora borealis in how they move and appear, but the jinn are not stars if that is what you are suggesting, since they can not even go into the heavens according to the Surah about the Jinn to pry into its secrets when they tried and find that they are in danger there, they are also clearly on Earth awaiting judgment, and can disbelieve while others can believe, while the stars are all obedient to Allah. Iblis is not a star either, he was sent into the world along with humans.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 07, 2015, 08:32:17 PM
The jinn look like auroras in many ways like the aurora borealis in how they move and appear, but the jinn are not stars if that is what you are suggesting, since they can not even go into the heavens according to the Surah about the Jinn to pry into its secrets when they tried and find that they are in danger there, they are also clearly on Earth awaiting judgment, and can disbelieve while others can believe, while the stars are all obedient to Allah. Iblis is not a star either, he was sent into the world along with humans.
I am nowhere suggesting Jinn are stars. The only thing I'm saying is this universe at some point was a place that did not have matter. If Jinn existed in that environment which they likely did they must have been made of the same building blocks the universe was made of then. Either deuterium, hydrogen or helium-4. (Note: everything is created in pairs - deuterium has a nucleus composed of two particles).
Quote from: runninglikezebras on January 07, 2015, 08:36:43 PM
I am nowhere suggesting Jinn are stars. The only thing I'm saying is this universe at some point was a place that did not have matter. If Jinn existed in that environment which they likely did they must have been made of the same building blocks the universe was made of then. Either deuterium, hydrogen or helium-4. (Note: everything is created in pairs - deuterium has a nucleus composed of two particles).
Yeah, that is a fine idea, though I don't think they were created nearly that early though, but maybe.
Harmony Freedom,
I think I cannot really agree with you on the Jinn root as meaning hidden. جان is regarded as meaning snake and this is because it has usually seen seen as a 'lowly being' as the letters ج and ن mean literally 'lowly entity'.
"Trapped" inside a beast as you say is the general message of both Jesus and Quran. It is of course difficult to comprehend exactly how things work, but it is a sort of spiritual assimilation with what is Allah that is the aim for a person who has grasped the message.
If you mention Gnosticism then you place me in a religion which I am not.
We are information yes, or rather, our physical bodies and everything else in the world we see, is made of energy as its base. If a staff can turn into a snake this is nothing strange since God is in control of the creation.
Have faith
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 08, 2015, 08:50:40 AM
Harmony Freedom,
I think I cannot really agree with you on the Jinn root as meaning hidden. جان is regarded as meaning snake and this is because it has usually seen seen as a 'lowly being' as the letters ج and ن mean literally 'lowly entity'.
"Trapped" inside a beast as you say is the general message of both Jesus and Quran. It is of course difficult to comprehend exactly how things work, but it is a sort of spiritual assimilation with what is Allah that is the aim for a person who has grasped the message.
If you mention Gnosticism then you place me in a religion which I am not.
We are information yes, or rather, our physical bodies and everything else in the world we see, is made of energy as its base. If a staff can turn into a snake this is nothing strange since God is in control of the creation.
Have faith
Why have so many linguists associated the root or radix of the term Jinn as well as Jannah with "hidden"? What does Jannah have to do with snakes? Are you trying to mix up Nachash from the Bible with Jinn?
What is your objection to the Jinn being a natural being alongside the human race? Why is this a problem? Is it because you haven't seen them or met them personally?
I'm not accusing you of being a Gnostic, its just that the idea of an "ethereal body" or whatever that is within matter is an idea that seems somewhat important in Gnosticism.
Do you perform worship? I'm just curious how you practice your system, if you worship with prostration or at all or what.
I'm also wondering why you've come to these conclusions and what basis you have for what you are saying and also what motivation (like why you particularly don't like the idea).
The root the term jinn is well known among non-muslim linguists to mean "hidden" as well, so this is not some idea coming from Muslims only. Just a few months ago you didn't seem to be so confident on the matter, but now you are spreading the idea very frequently and with lots of confidence, how did that come about?
Snake is a different word, lowly is a different word. Is Jannah lowly somehow? Is Jannah like a snake or a place of snakes?
Regardless of that, the jinn have often been associated with snakes because of their misty form and movement, moving like the aurora at times, like big or little mist snakes or "dragons", nagas, and other things that twirl around and slink, and the "daemons" which are "made of aer" which is basically misty looking stuff in the Roman understanding, appeared heavier than the atmosphere.
They have been referred to throughout the ages, its not some new idea, and yes the people of the world were superstitious, but that does not mean that the creation of the jinn, which the Qur'an says are made of "smokeless fire" and made "before" the "nas" of which "Iblis" was one who even knows and believes in Allah and prayed to Allah so is not "without faith" if by "faith" you mean "belief", since Iblis believes in Allah but he is still a disbeliever in the sense that he lost hope or "despaired" as the root meaning of the word Iblis (balasa) means. He was of the jinn, the jinn who were made before humankind.
Do you read the Qur'an every day or often? Is the Bible very important to you? Arabic didn't derive from Hebrew, and Arabic is considered by some non-muslim linguists to have retained many of the original meanings of words that are found in the Akkadian language and so they look to Arabic often to figure out the root meanings much of the time.
Do you have Edward Lane's lexicon? You should get it, it discusses all the roots and gives huge insight, also to look into the Akkadian language dictionary or lexicon which is available online. It gives lots of insight into words like Muslim, Allah, and whatever, even roots for Jnn or whatever.
Even Nachash, the serpent, can also mean "whisperer", "enchanter", as well as "shining one", besides "snake" which was commonly associated with these creatures around the whole world due to their appearance of being a misty wavering slinking form like the tail often depicted in cartoon genies.
I don't just believe this stuff out of the blue though, and you might be imagining them in a silly way which makes you completely reject the idea of Jinn as being a creature created by Allah, but I showed videos that shows you what they look like, you can see them slinking around in the heat vision camera in one video or doing other things, it isn't even that hard to find them or encounter them, people used to pour out libations for them that they would come to and suck off the fumes. They are not supernatural, they are completely natural, maybe you would believe only if you met one?
Did you not even look at the videos I linked?
Jinn is a state of soul, like broken and not whole. If خ as in خلق means intact then ج means broken/disintegrated.
If it is used to symbolize Heaven then that is likely due to that the chain is broken when you give up the ghost. It is a relief, unless you are destined for Gehenna of course.
A broken soul will remain broken as well and will not have access to the realm which is the real existence. Jesus said that he was come to heal broken souls and not the healthy, and this in reply to the complaints that he invited sinners etc.
And I give a heck in what dictionaries say because I do not follow the words of men but I only do as according to God.
Have faith
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 08, 2015, 06:41:04 PM
Jinn is a state of soul, like broken and not whole. If خ as in خلق means intact then ج means broken/disintegrated.
If it is used to symbolize Heaven then that is likely due to that the chain is broken when you give up the ghost. It is a relief, unless you are destined for Gehenna of course.
A broken soul will remain broken as well and will not have access to the realm which is the real existence. Jesus said that he was come to heal broken souls and not the healthy, and this in reply to the complaints that he invited sinners etc.
And I give a heck in what dictionaries say because I do not follow the words of men but I only do as according to God.
Have faith
Please read the following, yes it does mention some words of men, but then I also show the Qur'an and make clear points:
I don't know why you're so confident about this idea that you're spreading it around, because the etymology of the term "gentile" and "gens" from Latin is from a different language family.
Many people make the serious mistake of mixing or connecting unrelated languages and words.
gentile (n.) Look up gentile at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "chivalrous person; member of the nobility;" see gentile (adj.). Also used during 14c. to mean both "one who is not a Christian" and "one who is not a Jew." The Latin word was used in Vulgate to translate Greek ethnikos, from ta ethne "the nations," which translated Hebrew ha goyim "the (non-Jewish) nations."
gentile (adj.) Look up gentile at Dictionary.com
mid-13c., "noble, kind, gracious" (mid-12c. as a surname); late 14c., "of noble rank or birth, belonging to the gentry," from Late Latin gentilis "foreign, heathen, pagan," from Latin gentilis "person belonging to the same family, fellow countryman," from gentilis (adj.) "of the same family or clan," from gens (genitive gentis) "race, clan" (see gentle).
The word Goy and Goyim has a totally different etymology and origin, and is totally unconnected to the Latin, but the term was chosen for translations.
Goyim means "nations", the eem makes it plural.
Jinn is from a totally different language family
genie (n.) Look up genie at Dictionary.com
1650s, "tutelary spirit," from French g?nie, from Latin genius (see genius); used in French translation of "Arabian Nights" to render Arabic jinni, singular of jinn, which it accidentally resembled, and attested in English with this sense from 1748.
genius (n.) Look up genius at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "tutelary god (classical or pagan)," from Latin genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent;"
The term Genius and Jinn are also unconnected, they are from different language families, though both terms refer to the same creatures.
daemon (n.) Look up daemon at Dictionary.com
alternative spelling (in specialized senses) of demon (q.v.). Related: Daemonic.
demon (n.) Look up demon at Dictionary.com
c.1200, from Latin daemon "spirit," from Greek daimon "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide" (see tide (n.)).
Used (with daimonion) in Christian Greek translations and Vulgate for "god of the heathen" and "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Greek word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii:31 has daimones, translated as deofol in Old English, feend or deuil in Middle English. Another Old English word for this was hellcniht, literally "hell-knight."
air (n.1) Look up air at Dictionary.com
c.1300, "invisible gases that make up the atmosphere," from Old French air "atmosphere, breeze, weather" (12c.), from Latin aerem (nominative aer) "air, lower atmosphere, sky," from Greek aer (genitive aeros) "air" (related to aenai "to blow, breathe"), of unknown origin, possibly from a base *awer- and thus related to aeirein "to raise" and arteria "windpipe, artery" (see aorta) on notion of "lifting, that which rises." In Homer mostly "thick air, mist;" later "air" as one of the four elements.
The Daemons were said to be made of "aer" which in that language meant "thick mist", and that is literally what they look like, you can see for yourself in the videos.
Where do you get your information from? It is mixing etymologies that have nothing to do with each other.
The word Jinn is not etymologically connected to Genius or Daemon but refers to the same thing, while the Latin Gens has nothing to do with the word Goy etymologically, they are from different languages and language families. One is from the "indo-european" language family, and one is from the "semitic" language family.
So can you please tell me where you're getting your information from? The connections you are making do not have an etymological basis. I like the idea you are presenting, it is an interesting idea, but what is it based on? You can't take words from other languages and language families and say they are connected to words from entirely different language families. Lots of people do that though, its a fallacy, its a mistake to do that, just because words sound similar from different language families doesn't mean they are etymologically connected or have the same origin.
Why do you think they are both human, when it lists a bunch of different creatures:
27:17
And his hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups.
Jinn and the men and the birds, three categories, why are they listed like that? Are the birds also humans in this section, since the bird talks and it says that he could understand the speech of creatures like birds and other animals?
Why is the root, if the root means "faithless" or "snake" or "lowly" as you suggest (with what evidence?) used in the word Jannah, what does Jannah have to do with faithlessness, snakes, or the quality of being degraded?
The root JNN is connected to the words Jinn, Jannah, Janin. Janin means "foetus", the fetus as it is hidden in the womb.
This differentiates it from the Arabic words ?Hadeeqa? and ?Bostan? that have different descriptions and are used for gardens, while Jannah specifically refers to the "Hidden" aspect of the garden, and Jinn are etymologically known by linguists (who are also non-muslim linguists) as "hidden" as well, and the JNN root has this meaning of being hidden.
The term used for faithless people is kaffir, which has a different sense of the term "covered up", which is referenced many times, that their seeing, hearing, and understanding is covered up, while the JNN word means concealment, like being hidden as a fetus hides or is concealed in the womb, that Paradise is hidden from us and hidden from view, hidden in the future.
______________
What is this Hebrew term you keep mentioning "Gens"? Do you think the word Gentile is Hebrew? It isn't Hebrew, it is a translation of the term Goy.
The other form of the Latin Gen, means origination, to beget, like Genesis, Generation, and stuff like that. It still isn't connected to the Semitic language family so has nothing to do with Hebrew or the term Goy.
So do you just get inspired with these ideas and think they are automatically the way it is or do you have some evidence to back up what you are spreading around with so much sudden confidence, when just a few months ago you didn't seem so confident on the matter, so how did you come to decide this thing?
What is the Hebrew word "gens", Latin is from a distinct language family, it is not directly related to Hebrew, but even in Latin the term Genius refers to the same creatures though this is called "accidental" or "coincidence" because the Arabic root JNN and the Latin word Genius come from entirely different language families and are unrelated, and also their meaning is unrelated, since the root JNN means hidden and is well attested among linguists to have this meaning or sense.
Plus, I'm not just making this stuff up, not only is it linguistically real, but I understand why they said the "daemons" were made of "aer" because they actually physically look like that, but they didn't know they were actually made of something described as "smokeless fire" which the Qur'an revealed.
So to recap:
I'd like to know where exactly you are getting your information and the back up for it. Do you just follow what you imagine or are you reading it somewhere and have evidence? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to understand.
What is your objection to this history and idea?
What is the Hebrew word "gens" that you keep mentioning?
Gentile comes from an entirely different language family, it is not a Hebrew word at all, and the term Genesis, Generation, and whatever else have nothing to do with Hebrew, they are from a different language family, called the Indo-European Language Family, not the Semitic Language family, the Semitic language family works differently, all words are based on a three letter radix or root in the Semitic Language family.
The Hebrew, even the Hebrew root "gnn" is the same as the Arabic JNN, and means "to cover" to "hide" to "be hidden".
The idea of "covering" is used in its other sense in the word Kaffir, which means that they are covered up from the truth, from understanding, or that they conceal the truth (or both).
What basis do you have to say Nas, which is well known to refer to the whole human race, are all spiritual? The Qur'an talks about people who do not believe in Allah and never refers to them as Jinn.
Yet, the Jinn believe in Allah, so how can they be called faithless?
59:16
the like of [what happens] when Satan says unto man, ?Deny the truth!? - but as soon as [man] has denied the truth, [Satan] says, ?Behold, I am not responsible for thee: behold, I fear God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!?
34:41
They will say: Be Thou Glorified. Thou (alone) art our Guardian, not them! Nay, but they worshipped the jinn; most of them were believers in them.
51:56
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me(created the faithless to worship him?).
Read the Surah about the Jinn, 72:
Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
Which guideth unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe no partner unto our Lord
'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.
Certainly the foolish among us say preposterous things of God.
But we, truly, thought that the humankind, nor the jinn would ever say a lie about God (These are the faithless talking?)
And indeed (O Muhammad) individuals of humankind used to invoke the protection of individuals of the jinn, so that they increased them in revolt against Allah);(This is well attested to, this was a practice of people around the world, they are called Shin in Japan, from another coincidental unrelated language root from the Chinese term jinn).
They thought, as you did, that God would never raise up anyone from the dead.
And that we sought to touch the heaven but we found it filled (with) guards severe, and flaming fires.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him; (these are humans?)
And that we know not whether evil is meant for those who are on earth or whether their Lord means to bring them good:
And among us there are righteous folk and among us there are far from that. We are sects having different rules.(Righteous folk, and disbelievers being made distinct here, "We (The Jinn Race) are sects having different rules" Why exactly is the Qur'an giving this person a whole Surah to talk in as if this would impress anyone unless its talking about some other beings of which people have little knowledge?)
And we know that we cannot escape from Allah in the earth, nor can we escape by flight. (The faithless know this? Oh yeah? Might you consider that your inspiration on this matter, of which you were not so sure a few months ago, might be not be accurate?)
Hence, as soon as we heard this [call to His] guidance, we came to believe in it: and he who believes in his Sustainer need never have fear of loss or injustice.
"'Yet [it is true] that among us are such as have surrendered themselves to God - just as there are among us such as have abandoned themselves to wrongdoing. Now as for those who surrender themselves to Him - it is they that have attained to consciousness of what is right;(WHAT? THE "FAITHLESS" ARE MUSLIMS!? WOW! Do you see that your understanding does not really make much sense anymore? Is it a matter of pride now? Don't let it be! Here is another translation of that 72:14 And that we, among us (are) Muslims and among us (are) unjust. And whoever submits, then those have sought (the) right path.)
but as for those who abandon themselves to wrongdoing - they are indeed but fuel for [the fires of] hell!?"
If they are steadfast on the path [of Allah], We shall provide them with abundant water,
so as to test them by this means: for he who shall turn away from the remembrance of his Sustainer, him will He cause to undergo suffering most grievous.
And the places of worship are only for Allah, so pray not unto anyone along with Allah.
And when the slave of Allah stood up in prayer to Him, they densely crowded on him, almost stifling. (if this is still talking about the jinn, then it is talking about how the mist came around him almost stifling his breathing with the dense mist, and if you've encountered jinn you wouldn't doubt this, its just a matter of fact thing, but because you haven't recognized or dealt with jinn, that doesn't mean you must reject their existence.)
Say: "I invoke my Sustainer alone, for I do not ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him."
Say: "Verily, it is not in my power to cause you harm or to endow you with consciousness of what is right."
Say: "Verily, no one could ever protect me from God, nor could I ever find a place to hide from Him
"Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."
Until when they see what they are threatened with, then shall they know who is weaker in helpers and fewer in number.
Say: "I do not know whether that [doom] of which you were forewarned is near, or whether my Sustainer has set for it a distant term."
(He is) the Knower of the Unseen, and He revealeth unto none His secret, (Unseen is a different word here, the Jinn are totally visible to people if you know what to recognize).
Save unto every messenger whom He hath chosen, and then He maketh a guard to go before him and a guard behind him
That He may know that they have indeed conveyed the messages of their Lord. He surroundeth all their doings, and He keepeth count of all things.
__________
Muslim Jinn, Jinn being worshiped (as they were and have been throughout the world), Jinn touching the sky but being harassed by radiation or flames. These are the "faithless" of old? These are "snakes" or "lowly"? It is some point of interest that the Jinn should talk so much about themselves "we are of differing sects" as if that is some news to people? The jinn made before humankind yet are humankind?
15:26
Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,
15:27
And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
______________
Are you still going to deny all this?
Are you going to turn away from all this in favor of your own idea which does not have any strong basis?
What is the Hebrew word Gens? Do you know that the Latin language and the Hebrew language are unrelated from different language families?
Will you deny that the words Jinn and Gentile have nothing to do with each other and are from entirely different language families?
Will you keep to your theory even when it says of the jinn there are Muslims in contrast to disbelieving jinn?
I mean there is so much, why would you continue to resist? Is it just because you haven't seen jinn? I showed links to videos which show you what they look like. Do you really need to encounter them yourself in order to believe in their existence? They are creatures, jinn, men, birds. They were made before humans and made from a different material, we are made of mud, they are made of fire, this was the whole argument of Iblis who was a jinn, he existed before Adam, was Iblis a human who existed before Adam and claimed to be made of fire while he is made of mud? What are you talking about? The Qur'an says the jinn were made before humans and were made of fire while the humans were made of mud, and that is why Iblis existed before Adam, the Qur'an remains consistent on the matter, your theory doesn't seem to match up (it is a good idea, an interesting theory, but it doesn't fit properly).
There is not Hebrew word Gentile, the word Gentile is not a Hebrew word, the word Goy is not connected to the root GNN in Hebrew which is the same as JNN, both mean Hidden, and Gentile has nothing to do with that word because its from a different language and was meant to be a translation of the word Goyim used by Jews to refer to all the "nations".
No no no Freedom. Jews say Gen and Gentile about non-Jews. I know my lesson and it is Hebrew we are talking about.
Goy is another word the Jews used and should not be confused with this one. I think if I remember it is right that they refer to an idiolator that way.
Jinn is derived from the same language family and it refers to a person who is faithless. It is only that fools got confused about it.
Jinn is no invisible being but it is simply a faithless person who is not sanctioned/blessed by God.
Let me paste an earlier draft:
Jinn is related to the Hebrew Gen which was Gens in Latin and Gentile in English. It is basically a word to refer to a person who is faithless and as arrogant as Jews were it came to refer to anyone who was not Jewish.
If dictionaries say otherwise you can either put your faith in them or me.
If Naas and Jinn occurs together as seeming like separate living beings it is because Naas is a person with spirit whereas the Jinn is faithless. But both are humans physically as far as your very eyes can see.
Compare that to the narrative about Solomon and the jinn who says he can bring the rule of the queen before Solomon stands up while the one blessed with knowledge says he can bring it to him in the blink of an eye. Both the jinn and the one with knowledge is a human.
And Kaffir does not mean cover up or hide but it means to produce. Usual context it means to fabricate.
Have faith
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 09, 2015, 01:57:46 PM
Let me paste an earlier draft:
Jinn is related to the Hebrew Gen which was Gens in Latin and Gentile in English. It is basically a word to refer to a person who is faithless and as arrogant as Jews were it came to refer to anyone who was not Jewish.
If dictionaries say otherwise you can either put your faith in them or me.
If Naas and Jinn occurs together as seeming like separate living beings it is because Naas is a person with spirit whereas the Jinn is faithless. But both are humans physically as far as your very eyes can see.
Compare that to the narrative about Solomon and the jinn who says he can bring the rule of the queen before Solomon stands up while the one blessed with knowledge says he can bring it to him in the blink of an eye. Both the jinn and the one with knowledge is a human.
And Kaffir does not mean cover up or hide but it means to produce. Usual context it means to fabricate.
Have faith
Jinn and Man can't be the same creation because they were created at different times. Jinn before Man. Saying Jinn is man contradicts those verses.
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 09, 2015, 01:52:05 PM
No no no Freedom. Jews say Gen and Gentile about non-Jews. I know my lesson and it is Hebrew we are talking about.
Goy is another word the Jews used and should not be confused with this one. I think if I remember it is right that they refer to an idiolator that way.
Jinn is derived from the same language family and it refers to a person who is faithless. It is only that fools got confused about it.
Jinn is no invisible being but it is simply a faithless person who is not sanctioned/blessed by God.
Gentile is not a Jewish word, its a translation of the Jewish word Goyim. I even showed you above.
Latin and Greek is not from the same language family as Arabic/Hebrew/Aramaic/Akkadian/Chaldean/Amharic.
Jews use the word Gentile today when speaking English, but it is not a Jewish or Hebrew word, it is a translation of the word Goyim. This is well known and well attested to, do you think I'm just brazenly making this stuff up in order to contradict you? I am not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to tell you very well known and basic things so that you don't spread information that is inaccurate or incorrect.
Did you completely skip all that I wrote above or skip a large portion of it? How can you continue to say this thing when I showed you the Qur'an verses that say that among jinn there are those who are believing Muslims?
GNN is the Jewish radix, its the same as JNN, and both of them mean "hidden". Jinn are not invisible, I agree.
Goyim means the "nations". The other term used for "pagans" is "uncircumcized" which is "arel". Goyim became commonly used to refer to all the unbelieving nations, but the term itself means "the nations" and things like that.
Why not just find me the evidence for what you are saying? Find me this word "Gen" in the Hebrew language that you might remember seeing.
Also, please be so kind and do me the great service of actually very slowly reading my post to you, the one before this one where I explain things extensively and type out the Surah about the Jinn, and read it as many times as it might take if possible, and then tell me how your theory fits and with what basis after all the evidence I provide, you can maintain this theory, and then if you can please produce your sensible evidence and counter each of my points, I'd really appreciate it, because if I'm wrong, I certainly don't wish to be wrong, so it would be wonderful if you could help me to understand.
You can ignore the following Man of Faith, but I hope you find the time to answer my other questions and actually read what I wrote in the earlier post if possible, the following is just some stuff I posted in another forum regarding the jinn too:
"Awesome! I might only put a little salt towards the "interdimensional" thing, since one can easily go to lots of places here to find them and they are like us in the sense of being earthly, "mortal", they can be killed and harmed, they also ingest things to survive like we do, except we eat solid foods generally and liquids, and they suck on gasses and fumes, particularly flammable ones like methane and alcohol fumes and whatever other chemicals and gasses."
"Yeah, I agree with the "ghost" stuff and dead ancestor stuff and all that, but the only difference here is the thing about the other dimensions. Knowing and dealing with jinn directly, there may not even be any other "dimensions" and they do not appear to have access to anything other than this dimension, so I'm not sure what that term means, since they are totally real creatures, that can be found here, that can't escape to another dimension or anything (and the existence of other dimensions is just adding or complicating matters, and I think many people who use the term don't consider occam's razor or mean some kind of "realm" that is different, but there is no such "realm", they live here and you can even find where they live, since they are in just about every local forest, underground caverns, and whatever else, even underwater sometimes.
They can't go through walls like people think, when they approach a wall and appear to disappear they are actually dispersing their form and spreading their mist like membrane thin which makes them difficult to see or realize, and they seep through cracks and other things.
You can also read the writings of a recluse Christian Saint who was dealing with them and mentions how they seep through cracks, though I'm not relying on sources for my information, they only confirm what I know based on real dealings and encounters.
So everything is fine except the necessity for the "realm" or "other dimension". They are 3d, they exist in this dimension, this world, this planet, and have certain abilities, all of which are natural and based on what they are and are made of (real material).
So the place where everyone goes a little wrong in my opinion is adding the "inter dimensions" thing, as if they are imagining some "world of jinn" or "dimension of jinn" and there is no such place, they share the Earth with human beings, and live in the secluded places of the Earth much of the time. The jinn are mentioned in the Bible as well, and throughout history they were generally understood to be connected to this planet, this sky, and this idea of other dimensions is relatively new.
Their ability to move things is a physical ability, they aren't in another place moving things, but actually present when they are moving things, and can be seen physically with normal vision and with heat vision.
They can travel into the sky or into water based on what they are made of, they are made of a fine material and their membrane has electromagnetic qualities but all these things are in this world, this dimension, they are physically real beings that have no supernatural or spiritual realm or component. They don't feed off "energies" or anything like that, they literally suck gas and fumes which are their form of calories, and they can not eat solid food, so would require "burnt offerings" and stuff like that, but if anything they descend to suck fine elements of things though they can not gulp things like humans do (hungry ghosts, like the Buddhists say).
So everything is fine, its just that the idea of "realms" or "dimensions" and some "dimension" which they have all to themselves is where people are just imagining or making up things with no real necessary justification. They travel around for food, they sleep, they speak the languages of whatever communities they live in (they don't have one united opinion, one united language, so when the guy says "what they call themselves is unknown", they call themselves all kinds of things, because they are of diverse opinions, cultures, and communities, just like humans, except they don't wear clothes, but they do speak different languages, but not all the languages, a jinn in Arabia is likely to speak Arabic, a jinn from America now speaks English, and stuff like that, though a jinn from France could have grown up in a french speaking community. They can be physically recorded, their speech is real and not psychic, they whisper into the ears of some people they are accompanying, its almost sub audible at times but can be recorded with recording devices, but if they speak loud enough or make a loud enough noise, which might take some effort, then all can hear them clear as day.
So the term "dimensions" here needs to be explained as to what it means, because they don't have a realm all to themselves, they are 3d, physical beings, belonging to the same 3d realm we belong to, they are made of matter which exists in this 3d realm, and there is not necessarily any realm we know of or have any access to besides this 3d realm, so I'm not sure what everyone means by "inter dimensions" or what they imagine "dimensions" are, since we are in a 3 dimensional plane of existence, and they are as well, and the supremacist jinn are the ones who despise humanities reign on Earth, which they wanted to reign on. They don't reign in some other realm and are just greedy for Earth too, its because Earth is their home and they wanted to be the rulers of it and not have the humans made rulers of it. It isn't that they have all the planets of the world and just want this planet too, they are connected strongly to Earth, they require elements that are found on Earth, and all that, same as humans in that sense.
They can't be in one place and then another simultaneously, they can travel extremely fast but as far as I can tell they can not be two places at once or instantly skip over to another part of the world regardless of how incredibly fast they move, they can't tele-port, they have to actually move to go places, they have to actually use force to pick up objects or push them.
They are adept at seduction and whispering suggestion to people quietly at times, and can also possibly influence people while they are sleeping through whispering to them which does not definitely always work as they wish, but at most they can come to a persons ear and sub audibly say "dog" and the person might imagine a "dog" and not know why, but those who communicate, largely communicate without any agenda greater than simply getting beers or getting stuff opened up so that they can suck off the fumes and vapors for their own sustenance.
Some Satanists and Witches deal with real jinn, as they have throughout the ages, while others just imagine things and have never encountered or dealt with real jinn or know that they are real physical beings, 3 dimensional like us.
So that is my only issue with people sometimes is that they use the word dimension in a strange way, and seem to believe in some other dimension where there are only 3 dimensions, the 4th is often called "time" and stuff, yet when people use the word dimension they are often meaning some other reality entirely, some world that belongs to jinn or whatever, but again the jinn can not travel through time, they live through the ages, they die, they are not immortal or time travelers, they have children and procreate. Iblis is able to live long because of his prayer being answered by God to be sustained until the day of judgment, the other jinn have lived and died throughout the ages.
The events of Eden were not in another dimension, they occurred right on Earth. They literally live in caverns, forests, hollow trees, possibly ocean caves (I'm not sure if they can remain underwater indefinitely or need to come up, I am only really familiar with the jinn living in places with the normal atmosphere but know that they can deep sea dive and go through the water as they frequently do and go pretty high up into the sky and atmosphere and possibly some degree of space but often need to descend rapidly to either refuel or for the atmosphere or something, but they are able to plum the depths of the Earth and go deep into caverns and explore and really they have no need to be so cranky since they can really do much more than humans naturally, except the supremacists think that because of their being "superior" in those senses and made of a different material that they should be the rightful rulers of Earth, and Iblis fell into despair or lost hope when he saw that Mankind was given the Kingship or Viceroy position not the Jinn. Not all Jinn are angry about this, and some jinn might even be very friendly with humans.
There are also some charlatan jinn, who would hide in and around idols to suck up offerings, and do other tricks to make people believe things that weren't true and receive food and libations poured out and sacrifices where they would feed off the fumes that come when a thing is rotting.
They seem to like blood as well and may be sucking something out of that in a very fine way, since the Hindus have some celebration where they mass murder thousands upon thousands of goats and leave their poured out blood and corpses everywhere and one can physically see the jinn descend upon it like a mist and begin feasting. So there is nothing at all supernatural or magical about them, they are completely natural, hungry, creatures, animals in a sense like us, though they are not related to us very closely, their creation is different from all the carbon based creatures. They are the "ghosts" but certainly not dead or magical, when they hit solid surfaces they disperse, and if you feel them hit, its like a cold blast when they disperse like if they impact your body, which may be super hot even, but it feels like that sharp cold of something super hot or super cold. I've been impacted by little jellyfish like ones and they do not go "through" a person, but just dissipate their membrane and lose their "shape" and become difficult to see when they are not compressed. Oh, they also seem to be effected by temperature and all normal things."
"I'm trying to find out again, since it had a pretty cool description that seemed accurate about how they seeped through the cracks and things and were complaining about the saint invading their territory and asking what right he has to come to dessert and bother them in their homes lol. I mean all I'm finding are the writings of Athanasius on St. Anthony the Great but I'm not sure if that is the one or if there was another one which particularly had these interesting details which match up with reality.
The daemons were said to be made of "aer", which meant "thick mist" and that is because of how they appear, but they didn't know that they were actually made out of essential plasma.
The Theosophists call Sanat Kumara and his gang of jinn "Lords of the Flame" as well, and claim they are from the planet Venus (Lucifer/Morning Star), but that isn't necessarily true at all, but just a way to neatly make a reference to the term Lucifer since that was the word for the morning star which is the planet Venus. The story of Sanat Kumara tells the story of Satan, but in a different light, where Satan is talked about as a compassionate one who left the council to descend upon Earth in order to help save humanity (lol).
The Yezidi have their book of Satan, who they call Melek Taus, and it is often looked at by Theistic Satanists.
These things do not provide real insight into the jinn though. The Qur'an provides the best clues, and other good clues are in the Secret Commonwealth book, but people can have all kinds of weird ideas about them still despite.
Even people who have encountered them may make up things about them or be told false things.
They are entirely natural, they live in the world in places that are usually not inhabited by humans, but sometimes they live in houses or visit them or buildings, but most of them live out of the way in forests, caves, mountains, valleys, all kinds of places in this spacious Earth where humans don't go and bother them and where there is food nearby, which for them are gasses from decay generally, possibly natural gasses as well, so they hang out around swamps as well.
They look like mist or misty forms that retain a certain shape, almost like the stereotypical kind of sheet ghost idea, they look like mist that weirdly retains a kind of shape and doesn't move like normal mist or separate out normally, and if agitated they can look more blustery and cloudy, they can condense into an orb and can also become luminescent but that burns calories, so generally they are just a relaxed form floating around searching for food to suck.
They talk, and they speak whatever language they know, like English or whatever, and can be heard, often they are said to sound like children, I guess it might be hard for them to produce loud sounds, but they can manage to shriek and shout and roar viciously and things like that in order to send people flying in fear.
They are fragile, in the sense that they can be harmed by physical things, but they are extremely pliable and flexible, but generally they stay away from people and stay relatively high up, so when they sneak into houses they stick to the ceilings generally and seep around and can be seen in the light, one might see a strange mist gathered or moving around wherein if one looks closely it looks like little particles or static on a tv screen almost within the mist.
They are often excited by events in the sky and among the stars, and they can also appear like stars, for example I once saw one that looked like it was a star until it started to move and spin around in circles crazily and then zoom down towards the Earth in a blue streak (meaning it was descending in altitude, if it was a red streak it would be ascending, that is called Red Shift I think). This is mentioned in the Qur'an, that some of them like to sit up high in the sky in order to "listen" or gain information of what is coming to Earth like signals and stuff. They can't stay there for long though, as they need to descend and "eat" and whatever and it might burn lots of energy to stay up there, especially to be luminescent if they have to be in order to maintain their position or whatever they might be doing.
I've directly dealt with and encountered them and that is why I'm so confident about what I am saying and why no weird ideas can phase me in the matter, because I totally know them personally. They aren't imaginary or hallucinatory and I show the videos that show they can be seen by anyone and are visible to the naked eye.
A good example of some are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugaar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_%28goddess%29
They live everywhere though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will-o%27-the-wisp
This phenomenon was also generally jinn congregations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...lvalek.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf#Scandinavia
_______
" Chinese shen 神 "spirit; etc." is a loanword in East Asian languages. "
_______
You see that they "flatten the grass" they move over in one of the videos I posted when they were fleeing, but they likewise can flatten grass in elaborate ways, so some of the old crop circles may have been this, or "faerie circles" which were areas discovered that would have flattened grass as described in the Scandinavian Elf folklore as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRndo7F6vA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M6vP8-SbU0
Such things, if they really are made by them, may have some ceremonial purpose, like a wedding celebration or something else, and these sorts of large things that can only be seen properly from the sky are generally for them to see and enjoy. Crop circles are often made by people though so one need not be too fussed by it. It should also be noted that if the video is true, the flying ones may not be the ones doing the work, but there may be others pushing the things down with pressure that are not illuminated in the condensed orb form. The work of Solomon is thought to be assisted by jinn as well."
Interesting post FreedomStands though I would never go as far as to attribute properties to Jinn or identify them in different cultural folklore. I don't do this for different reasons. I accept Jinn are a creation just like man, different in nature but altogether natural in evolutionary terms. Quran does not tell us much else about Jinn or how we can observe/study them. When we want to study this topic outside Quran we are entering the domains of occultism, esotericism. These are grounds I stay away from for good reason.
In my understanding there is no need to study Jinn. This is not the point why we are here. Just like mankind the jinns life in this universe is a trial. We will all return at some point and we will only be responsible for our own actions. When Jinn are mentioned in the Quran it tells us a lot about creation (big bang) and the last day. We know at least one malaikum has his bets on the Jinn and not on mankind. This should encourage us to finish first despite what obstacles we meet.
Ignoring Jinn are a different living creation than minkind is a shame though. The analogy of the hidden being formed first in the events after big bang and the material only later is present in Quran and one of its descriptions I admire greatly. It is one of those verses that convinced me Islam is a system of faith that is one step ahead of science always.
Quote from: runninglikezebras on January 09, 2015, 03:28:19 PM
Interesting post FreedomStands though I would never go as far as to attribute properties to Jinn or identify them in different cultural folklore. I don't do this for different reasons. I accept Jinn are a creation just like man, different in nature but altogether natural in evolutionary terms. Quran does not tell us much else about Jinn or how we can observe/study them. When we want to study this topic outside Quran we are entering the domains of occultism, esotericism. These are grounds I stay away from for good reason.
In my understanding there is no need to study Jinn. This is not the point why we are here. Just like mankind the jinns life in this universe is a trial. We will all return at some point and we will only be responsible for our own actions. When Jinn are mentioned in the Quran it tells us a lot about creation (big bang) and the last day. We know at least one malaikum has his bets on the Jinn and not on mankind. This should encourage us to finish first despite what obstacles we meet.
Ignoring Jinn are a different living creation than minkind is a shame though. The analogy of the hidden being formed first in the events after big bang and the material only later is present in Quran and one of its descriptions I admire greatly. It is one of those verses that convinced me Islam is a system of faith that is one step ahead of science always.
Thank you for your comment! I agree that learning about the jinn is not really necessary or important, but my posts are meant to give people confidence about their existence so that they don't stray into thinking that they aren't real. The occultists often imagine they are trying to deal with them, but often they are not even dealing with anything but their own imagination. When it comes to real jinn, they are very real, and when one has encountered them in multiple ways then one knows about them and isn't really confused about what is being talked about.
Such study is not important at all though, but just to know that the jinn are mentioned in relatively the same way across the whole world, and the accounts often match exactly how they really are, though often, even in the past, people would apparently embellish or imagine strange things and attribute supernatural aspects to it, while others used to discuss them as entirely natural and without superstitious imaginings.
I agree with you and the jinn also seem to like to associate themselves with star material and consider themselves in ways like that at times, and in a sense all life is connected to star material supposedly, but the jinn are likely mixed in their nature just as we have more to our elemental composition than just "mud", but that our basic material is carbon matter while their basic material is "flame of fire" which is "plasma" by definition.
I wouldn't trust any of these accounts or be able to sort truth from fiction except that I've dealt with jinn personally and with witnesses and photographs and everything, so to me its just a matter of letting people know, and its also how I can sort easily between silly stories and those that match how they really are. It could be that what I've dealt with personally are not "jinn" but something else, and that the "jinn" are the "faithless" as Man of Faith says or "imaginary beings" as others say, but what I'm discussing and calling "jinn" are what I've actually dealt with and are entirely real, a type of creature that people are not too familiar with but were much more familiar to people in the past and were described more accurately at the times in the past.
Peace
Allah speaks of the Jinn.
[46:29] Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran.
When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
[46:30] They said, "O our people, we have heard a book that was revealed after Moses, and confirms
the previous scriptures. It guides to the truth; to the right path.
[46:31] "O our people, respond to the call of GOD, and believe in Him. He will then forgive your sins,
and spare you a painful retribution."
So what do you think of these ayats?
God bless
:peace:
Quote from: hawk99 on January 09, 2015, 04:08:58 PM
Peace
Allah speaks of the Jinn.
[46:29] Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran.
When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
[46:30] They said, "O our people, we have heard a book that was revealed after Moses, and confirms
the previous scriptures. It guides to the truth; to the right path.
[46:31] "O our people, respond to the call of GOD, and believe in Him. He will then forgive your sins,
and spare you a painful retribution."
So what do you think of these ayats?
God bless
:peace:
Thank you for your question. This is what I think:
6:38
There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
They are not humans generally understood to be humans, but a race of creatures, like the birds are a race of creatures, the trees are a race of creatures, etc .
"to their folk" can be another translation. The Qur'an says they have among them Muslims as well as disbelievers and various opinions or sects just like people do.
They are different from humans in what they are made of and their appearance, and they differ from all carbon based lifeforms since they are made of "smokeless flame" which is today known as "plasma" essentially while we are made of "mud", though of course, just like we are not made entirely of "mud" but are mixed with other components, they too are likely to be mixed rather than pure flame (plasma is ionized gas, flame and lightning are plasma).
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 09, 2015, 08:01:43 PM
Thank you for your question. This is what I think:
6:38
There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
They are not humans generally understood to be humans, but a race of creatures, like the birds are a race of creatures, the trees are a race of creatures, etc. I hope I don't sound harsh.
Peace FreedomStands
Thank you for taking time to reply.
There is nothing in these ayats that indicate anything other than what it says, i.e.,
[46:29] Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran.
When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
[46:30] They said, "O our people, we have heard a book that was revealed after Moses, and confirms
the previous scriptures. It guides to the truth; to the right path.
[46:31] "O our people, respond to the call of GOD, and believe in Him. He will then forgive your sins,
and spare you a painful retribution."
Forgive the sins of sheep?
And when I add Sura Al Jinn:
[72:11] "'Some of us are righteous, and some are less than righteous; we follow various paths.
Some birds are not righteous and other birds no so!
[72:12] "'We knew full well that we can never run away from GOD on earth; we can never run away and escape.
[72:13] "'When we heard the guidance, we believed therein. Anyone who believes in his Lord will never
fear any injustice, nor any affliction.
[72:14] "'Among us are the submitters, and among us are the compromisers.'" As for those who
submitted, they are on the right path.
I don't think there are compromisers among cattle.
[72:15] As for the compromisers, they will be fuel for Gehenna.
Quran states that humans and jinns can end up in hell not buffalo.
[72:16] If they remain on the right path, we will bless them with abundant water.
[72:17] We will surely test them all. As for him who disregards the message of his Lord, He will direct
him to ever increasing retribution.
[72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD.
Also I think أُمَمٌ is more like community and not like people the way you
have translated in 6/38.
God bless you :peace:
Quote from: hawk99 on January 10, 2015, 12:31:02 AM
Peace FreedomStands
Thank you for taking time to reply.
There is nothing in these ayats that indicate anything other than what it says, i.e.,
[46:29] Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran.
When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
[46:30] They said, "O our people, we have heard a book that was revealed after Moses, and confirms
the previous scriptures. It guides to the truth; to the right path.
[46:31] "O our people, respond to the call of GOD, and believe in Him. He will then forgive your sins,
and spare you a painful retribution."
Forgive the sins of sheep?
And when I add Sura Al Jinn:
[72:11] "'Some of us are righteous, and some are less than righteous; we follow various paths.
Some birds are not righteous and other birds no so!
[72:12] "'We knew full well that we can never run away from GOD on earth; we can never run away and escape.
[72:13] "'When we heard the guidance, we believed therein. Anyone who believes in his Lord will never
fear any injustice, nor any affliction.
[72:14] "'Among us are the submitters, and among us are the compromisers.'" As for those who
submitted, they are on the right path.
I don't think there are compromisers among cattle.
[72:15] As for the compromisers, they will be fuel for Gehenna.
Quran states that humans and jinns can end up in hell not buffalo.
[72:16] If they remain on the right path, we will bless them with abundant water.
[72:17] We will surely test them all. As for him who disregards the message of his Lord, He will direct
him to ever increasing retribution.
[72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD.
Also I think أُمَمٌ is more like community and not like people the way you
have translated in 6/38.
God bless you
:peace:
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I was trying to point out by that verse that the Qur'an says the animals are all communities or peoples just like we are, that was just in case you were suggesting that the jinn are human beings, as Man of Faith has been suggesting.
The Jinn are a creature created by Allah, made of "smokeless fire" which is "plasma" by today's terminology (since that is what "fire" is), they were created before the human beings, and they live in communities and are communities like us in the sense of belonging to different sects and having different groups of ideas, some are Muslim and some are not.
The animals are all Muslims, and everything in nature is Muslim, only the Jinn and Mankind perform evil deeds or disbelieve and are given punishment in the afterlife.
I did not mean to imply that some birds are not righteous, I was just mentioning that the Jinn and Mankind and Birds are mentioned as three races of beings in the army of Sulaiman, and that the various creatures are mentioned as each having communities.
I am not saying Jinn are birds or that birds are like Jinn, birds are all Muslims, some of the jinn are not Muslims.
I was just trying to make sure you weren't suggesting they were humans the way that Man of Faith is suggesting. They are not humans, they are creatures that are different from humans and animals, but like humans and animals they are in communities and have "folk" their own kin and people.
So what was your intention in asking me the question? I posted what I did so that you do not think they are "people" as in human beings, because the Qur'an says all the animals are "peoples" just like us, but it means communities generally and that they are similar in many ways but not the same.
So I never said that cattle are disbelievers, all the animals are Muslims, the Bees, the Cattle, the Ants, the Birds, all of them.
So did you misunderstand my statements? I was trying to make sure you were not suggesting the Jinn are human beings the way that Man of Faith does.
Jinn is a spiritual affinity and not some strange creation.
Why do you not read the narrative with Solomon and understand the jinn there is just an ordinary albeit faithless person?
But you can keep your faith in what you think is right, but it will not help you understand the reason for our demise as giving in to our fleshly body and the surrounding physical world. I thithink you miss something.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 10, 2015, 01:02:13 AM
I was trying to make sure you were not suggesting the Jinn are human beings the way that Man of Faith does.
Thank you FreedomStands for your reply.
I do not agree that the jinn is a faithless person as the Quran clearly debunks that idea, I also try
not to inject what is not there, such as plasma. I only pointed out that your translation of 6/38
has inherent problems. Hope I do not sound harsh.
God bless you
:peace:
@Man of Faith
People here have read Surah Al-Jinn. Can you give an explanation regarding what that Surah is trying to teach us? Thanks.
Peace.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 10, 2015, 01:02:13 AM
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I was trying to point out by that verse that the Qur'an says the animals are all communities or peoples just like we are, that was just in case you were suggesting that the jinn are human beings, as Man of Faith has been suggesting.
The Jinn are a creature created by Allah, made of "smokeless fire" which is "plasma" by today's terminology (since that is what "fire" is), they were created before the human beings, and they live in communities and are communities like us in the sense of belonging to different sects and having different groups of ideas, some are Muslim and some are not.
The animals are all Muslims, and everything in nature is Muslim, only the Jinn and Mankind perform evil deeds or disbelieve and are given punishment in the afterlife.
I did not mean to imply that some birds are not righteous, I was just mentioning that the Jinn and Mankind and Birds are mentioned as three races of beings in the army of Sulaiman, and that the various creatures are mentioned as each having communities.
I am not saying Jinn are birds or that birds are like Jinn, birds are all Muslims, some of the jinn are not Muslims.
I was just trying to make sure you weren't suggesting they were humans the way that Man of Faith is suggesting. They are not humans, they are creatures that are different from humans and animals, but like humans and animals they are in communities and have "folk" their own kin and people.
So what was your intention in asking me the question? I posted what I did so that you do not think they are "people" as in human beings, because the Qur'an says all the animals are "peoples" just like us, but it means communities generally and that they are similar in many ways but not the same.
So I never said that cattle are disbelievers, all the animals are Muslims, the Bees, the Cattle, the Ants, the Birds, all of them.
So did you misunderstand my statements? I was trying to make sure you were not suggesting the Jinn are human beings the way that Man of Faith does.
Well said. :bravo:
Quote from: Samira1234 on January 10, 2015, 01:26:08 AM
@Man of Faith
People here have read Surah Al-Jinn. Can you give an explanation regarding what that Surah is trying to teach us? Thanks.
Peace.
It starts to speak of faithless people who hear the true interpretation of the recitation.
And in another passage it speaks of people who take shelter with faithless people.
They are human beings like the rest of us except they are not whole but broken, because they have not attained any spirituality. This is why Shaitaan was regarded among jinns, because it is a shattered soul.
But if one chooses to put faith in nonsense such as supernatural beings for them then they are missing out on important aspects of the philosophy taught by Quran.
I have difficulty understanding that despite the clear narrative about Solomon and the person among jinns who speaks about conquering the realm of the queen while the knowledgeable person says he can bring it down before the blink of an eye because he suggested shrewdness rather than blunt force.
Salaam
Hello Man of Faith,
Thanks for your reply. By the way some people are "spiritually blind" from birth. Meaning they never tasted anything on spirituality and re that way. Are they also broken?
And do you believe in supernatural beings? Do you think anywhere in the Quran they are mentioned in any way?
Peace.
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 10, 2015, 01:08:52 AM
Jinn is a spiritual affinity and not some strange creation.
Why do you not read the narrative with Solomon and understand the jinn there is just an ordinary albeit faithless person?
But you can keep your faith in what you think is right, but it will not help you understand the reason for our demise as giving in to our fleshly body and the surrounding physical world. I thithink you miss something.
I made a whole post showing you that some jinn are Muslims, so what are you talking about by calling them Faithless? Why do you keep insisting on this idea, did you not read anything I wrote even? I showed you numerous quotes. I showed you linguistic information, then I even showed you the Qur'an.
The Qur'an says they were created before mankind out of fire, while the mankind was created out of clay, I showed you all that, why not please read it at least and adress those things? I'd really appreciate it!
Hello FreedomStands,
Man of Faith has a totally different method of interpretation. He says each letter of the Arabic alphabets has a specific meaning. And in a word each of the letter's meanings are placed side by side to each other, to draw out the meaning of the word. And then those words in a sentence would give the meaning of the sentence. So yeah, it is very different from most other people's way of interpretation, where people usually use Arabic dictionaries and grammar to interpret accordingly.
But I must say though, several of the passages and verses that he had translated earlier made a lot more sense than a number of muddied translations that I have seen. They give more spiritual emphasis than the traditional more fleshly emphasis. Just giving my personal honest opinion only.
Peace.
Both things are not separate, but a continuum. The whole is consistent and the whole must be taken into account. This do not come from nothing. Roots as the vvery word say is from what something else grows and are coherent with what grows out of them.
Salaam
The animals are soulless, they are simply following a "programming", and you cannot turn them into Muslims, since Muslim is a spiritual affinity and even faith towards something. Animals are part of the flesh. Humans can be like animals of course and then they would be regarded as jinn. That is when they are limited in perception and see only this world and are very earthly by other words.
You as human who is a jinn is not much better than an animal. You have instincts and can behave like a sophisticated animal. It is this instinctive nature that is one of the lessons of becoming a spiritual person. You should not be proud over following your instincts if you think that. You are trapped in a beast body and giving in to its primitive nature is just what you are not supposed to do. Then you tend to forget your spirit and succumb to the greater beast Shaitaan. This is the meaning of the expression "separate the spirit from the flesh".
A Jinn cannot be a Muslim because they lack any sort of spiritual ascension. What makes a Muslim is the faith, they have spiritual "awareness". Since a jinn is an incomplete soul the how can this person be a Muslim?
Jinns as supernatural beings is just a hoax. It is rather that when Quran speaks of Naas and Jinn then it speaks of either spiritual ones or faithless.
And if you argue about the one passage involving jinns who hear Quran being recited to them and find it to be good, then this is because a jinn does not have to be stupid even though being earthly in perception and a jinn could change themselves and grow into a spiritually ascended person.
Have faith and salam
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 10, 2015, 07:47:01 AM
The animals are soulless, they are simply following a "programming", and you cannot turn them into Muslims, since Muslim is a spiritual affinity and even faith towards something. Animals are part of the flesh. Humans can be like animals of course and then they would be regarded as jinn. That is when they are limited in perception and see only this world and are very earthly by other words.
You as human who is a jinn is not much better than an animal. You have instincts and can behave like a sophisticated animal. It is this instinctive nature that is one of the lessons of becoming a spiritual person. You should not be proud over following your instincts if you think that. You are trapped in a beast body and giving in to its primitive nature is just what you are not supposed to do. Then you tend to forget your spirit and succumb to the greater beast Shaitaan. This is the meaning of the expression "separate the spirit from the flesh".
A Jinn cannot be a Muslim because they lack any sort of spiritual ascension. What makes a Muslim is the faith, they have spiritual "awareness". Since a jinn is an incomplete soul the how can this person be a Muslim?
Jinns as supernatural beings is just a hoax. It is rather that when Quran speaks of Naas and Jinn then it speaks of either spiritual ones or faithless.
And if you argue about the one passage involving jinns who hear Quran being recited to them and find it to be good, then this is because a jinn does not have to be stupid even though being earthly in perception and a jinn could change themselves and grow into a spiritually ascended person.
Have faith and salam
What does the word Soul mean to you? Do you think you have a soul while other things do not? What is a soul?
6:38
And there is no moving creature in or on the earth, none that is a fowl flying with its two wings, but they are communities like yours. We neglected not anything in the Book. Again, they will be assembled to their Lord.
6:39
And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.
3:83
Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.
(I meant they are Muslims by definition, those who surrender to Allah. Even the heaven and the earth are made those that surrender willingly according to the Qur'an).
3:19
urely the (true) religion with Allah is Surrender, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
41:11
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or unwillingly. They said: We come, obedient.
27:18
Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving. (You think the ants have no souls?)
So what is Iblis? A human that was supposedly created from fire rather than mud who has lived so long and created before Adam?
21:79
So We made Sulaiman to understand it; and to each one We gave wisdom and knowledge; and We made the mountains, and the birds to celebrate Our praise with Dawood; and We were the doers.
27:22
But he(the hoepoe bird) was not long in coming, and he (the hoepoe bird) said: I have found out (a thing) that thou apprehendest not, and I come unto thee from Sheba with sure tidings.
27:16
And [in this insight] Solomon was [truly] David?s heir; and he would say: ?O you people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and have been given [in abundance] of all [good] things: this, behold, is indeed a manifest favour [from God]!?
(The Birds speak, and the ants speak, are they without life or souls? Are they merely robots to you?)
That is a misinterpretation of passages regarding those talking birds. Besides the traditional translation is poor in quality. I mean who will see an ant speak?
And what does that have to do with the jinn who says that he can bring down the rule of the queen before Solomon can rise up. That person is clearly a human in his court.
There is a user who is called noshirk here who has given a better translation.
There are some primates who can speak, but they are not self-aware. They merely follow instinct patterns. Jinns are not much better though.
Have faith
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 10, 2015, 11:46:38 AM
That is a misinterpretation of passages regarding those talking birds. Besides the traditional translation is poor in quality. I mean who will see an ant speak?
And what does that have to do with the jinn who says that he can bring down the rule of the queen before Solomon can rise up. That person is clearly a human in his court.
There is a user who is called noshirk here who has given a better translation.
There are some primates who can speak, but they are not self-aware. They merely follow instinct patterns. Jinns are not much better though.
Have faith
Allah says in the Qur'an that kaffirs are worse than Cattle. The Birds being understood is mentioned as a miracle bestowed upon Solomon and his father David that was unique to them. Solomon was allowed to hear the ant, particularly a female ant, another miracle because Allah was showing that he knows that all the worker ants are females, something no one knew. For simply hearing the ant, Solomon reacts with intense happiness and joy, that he was made to hear an ant speak, another miracle of Allah. "Who will see an ant speak?" That is the whole point, it was a tremendous miracle which Solomon recognized, that Allah gave him such understanding.
The Jinn brought the Throne, the physical throne to Solomon. So when the Queen arrived, she saw it there physically and said "this throne here is just like mine!" and it was her actual throne which the jinn brought, the bird was the one who spied on her, the Qur'an said that Solomon had birds in his army because his father and him were given the understanding of the language of birds. The birds were taught the Zabur. Even to this day, you can see the birds in the trees congregate in their communities and worship Allah during the evening time after sunset, and in the early morning before the sunrise, and at other meeting points in the day perhaps. Such are the apparent miracles of Allah for those who are allowed to realize.
You seem to deny pretty much all miracles, and all of them are "mis-translations" which everyone from non-muslim linguists to anyone else can not understand apparently when it is laid forth very clearly.
Allah is the one who puts the denial in you of course, and Allah is the one who can make you a "fool" like me.
Such a "fool" (I know you haven't called me a "fool", I am just putting in quotes) as myself, who believes and showed that the Qur'an says:
Man created from Mud.
Jinn created before man and not made from Mud but made from Fire.
Angels having wings, two, three, four (What has three wings! Fooey!) "Allah creates and adds to creation as Allah wills" and it says "adds to His creation as He wills" in the same verse even.
Jinn being Muslims and Disbelievers.
Jinn being able to "touch the heavens" due to their ability of flight.
Solomon having the winds helping him so that he could travel faster (another miracle given by Allah)
Solomon overhearing an Ant and making a big deal about hearing an Ant and praying that Allah "makes him" grateful, understanding that if Allah doesn't make us do something, it will never be done.
Solomon and David being given the understanding of the Language of Birds, listed among the miracles of Allah given to them.
Jinn, men, and birds, mentioned as three different components of the Host or Army of Solomon.
The floors of the palace of Solomon looking like water because they were made of glass.
Jinn bringing the real physical throne of the Queen before Solomon, the Queen seeing the throne and recognizing it as her throne, a miracle of Allah.
I showed you in my post, all kinds of evidence, that post is a few back now, I don't know if you ever even read it.
Your name seems ironic, considering the hesitance to accept these miracles and creations mentioned pretty explicitly and in different ways.
The Sky and the Earth are given dialogue in the Qur'an.
The person before they are born is given dialogue in the Qur'an.
The Thunder praises Allah, in other words Thunear also known as Thor (Thunder) praises Odin if you want to use Norse terminology. All things bow to the will of Allah willingly or unwillingly, and Allah is in control of everything and has power over all things.
The angels bring down the visible throne, the visible throne is a symbol, and likely to be a Qiblah or node, direction point just like the Cube in Arabia. Yes, it was built by men, yes, such was the will of Allah, no, we do not worship an idol, its just a selected point to turn towards.
Yes, at other times the "throne" can refer to dominion, authority, power, rulership, etc perhaps, and it doesn't matter if it does in this case either, knowing that Allah can make such a thing easily and easily visible, or can make it a metaphor, everything is easy for Allah, and no "system" overcomes Allah, Allah makes the "systems" and can change them, and can deceive anyone thereby.
Allah turned the staff into a visible, clear, manifest snake, and turned it back, to show that Allah can create anything in an instant, that information can be changed easily by Allah. Was that story also also a "mis-translation" and when it emphasizes how it was made clear and manifest and clearly apparent to everyone as a real snake, that Allah showed how he creates what we know as "true" and "false" and can change the "truth" freely, and so all "truth" is transitory, and only Allah is the Eternal Truth, and Allah is not made of any information, is like nothing at all (and everything is made of information and is information except Allah who is not made of information), but makes information.
So where it was "true" that there was a staff, Allah made it "true" that there was a snake and not a staff, and then Allah made it "true" that it was a staff again. Thus Allah proved and demonstrated how Allah is in control of all information instantly and easily, and so too can easily annihilate people (make them return to the state of Nothing, which is called returning to Allah who is like nothing), and bring them back, like how the staff was made non-existent, and then brought back.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 10, 2015, 10:42:41 PM
Such a "fool" (I know you haven't called me a "fool", I am just putting in quotes) as myself, who believes and showed that the Qur'an says:
Man created from Mud.
Jinn created before man and not made from Mud but made from Fire.
Angels having wings, two, three, four (What has three wings! Fooey!) "Allah creates and adds to creation as Allah wills" and it says "adds to His creation as He wills" in the same verse even.
Jinn being Muslims and Disbelievers.
Jinn being able to "touch the heavens" due to their ability of flight.
Solomon having the winds helping him so that he could travel faster (another miracle given by Allah)
Solomon overhearing an Ant and making a big deal about hearing an Ant and praying that Allah "makes him" grateful, understanding that if Allah doesn't make us do something, it will never be done.
Solomon and David being given the understanding of the Language of Birds, listed among the miracles of Allah given to them.
Jinn, men, and birds, mentioned as three different components of the Host or Army of Solomon.
The floors of the palace of Solomon looking like water because they were made of glass.
Jinn bringing the real physical throne of the Queen before Solomon, the Queen seeing the throne and recognizing it as her throne, a miracle of Allah.
Well pointed out evidence FreedomStands. Some people seem to be allergic to anything that refers to the 'hidden': jinn, hell, heaven. While these are truly established concepts in Quran. Sure, there are misconceptions about everyone of them but I don't see how you can follow Quran while denying the creation of Jinn outside men and deny the existence of a (meta)physical hell/heaven.
Quote from: runninglikezebras on January 10, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
Well pointed out evidence FreedomStands. Some people seem to be allergic to anything that refers to the 'hidden': jinn, hell, heaven. While these are truly established concepts in Quran. Sure, there are misconceptions about everyone of them but I don't see how you can follow Quran while denying the creation of Jinn outside men and deny the existence of a (meta)physical hell/heaven.
Thank you! I think people could really get lots out of reading my posts by clicking my name and checking out all my writing here so far.
2:3
Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
4:136
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
2:177
True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west - but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation, and the prophets; and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God.
2:285
The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 11, 2015, 12:14:55 AM
Thank you! I think people could really get lots out of reading my posts by clicking my name and checking out all my writing here so far.
2:3
Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
4:136
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
2:177
True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west - but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation, and the prophets; and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God.
2:285
The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
I understand the feeling of being ignored on this forum. But self-promotion doesn't help. Bombard them with quranic evidence I say! :p
Quote from: runninglikezebras on January 11, 2015, 12:19:14 AM
I understand the feeling of being ignored on this forum. But self-promotion doesn't help. Bombard them with quranic evidence I say! :p
You're doing well! Except that we would perhaps derive the most benefit from our actions here by focusing on using all kinds of opportunities to say beautiful things regarding the nature of Allah, which has been my style for many posts, because regardless if they listen or not, it is what we say that matters.
Quote from: FreedomStands on January 11, 2015, 12:37:34 AM
You're doing well! Except that we would perhaps derive the most benefit from our actions here by focusing on using all kinds of opportunities to say beautiful things regarding the nature of Allah, which has been my style for many posts, because regardless if they listen or not, it is what we say that matters.
I don't share your activism. I'm not here to enlighten anyone. Only God guides who He wills. I'm only here for intellectual debate so I can improve my understanding of Quran. Contributions from others are most welcome even if they are criticism. It helps me test an understanding which can always be wrong. The worst thing however is no reaction at all, which makes posting anything here not really worthwile.
But it does not help if you bombard them with poor interpretations of the original Arabic. It does not turn anything right.
The sectarian interpretation that has been exclusive for over thousand years advocates a Pagan religion. Do you wish to proceed with it it is fine, but refrain from backbiting please.
I mean, how does an abstract entity (God) have a physical throne? That is one in a sea of poor translations and hence interpretations.
And of course God/Allah is a righteous entity , so how come Allah appears unrighteous in the mainstream Quran? Samira1234 highlighted this point. Why would Allah have a huge ego? All I say it is because that Allah is created by people with the equal size of ego.
And I got no reply concerning the jinn in Solomon's court who suggested he could help take over the dominion of the Queen (allegedly of Sheba) and this person was clearly visible and of average intellect as can be expected by a person without spiritual insight/ascension. It was no supernatural being but a standard non-elevated human who could not think outside of the box while the man blessed with knowledge could devise something outside the box and hence suggest something which would be over "before the blink of an eye" and that was through verbal skill, i.e. diplomacy. The jinn could only suggest violence as a means of stopping unrighteous behavior that the queen's people were indulging in.
And an ant cannot speak verbally because it lacks the prerequisites. Tell me how the ant can talk? It also lacks a brain capable of doing anything but which it is assigned to do by nature. Not even a bird can produce speech in any logical way and even if it can it can only parrot them. They cannot think independently.
You take the works of fabricating scholars and shower me with that and claim things from right to left, and even say I humorously call myself man of faith (Freedomstands).
Have faith
I agree some of FreedomStands interpretations were hadith-contaminated.
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 11, 2015, 01:15:59 AM
And I got no reply concerning the jinn in Solomon's court who suggested he could help take over the dominion of the Queen (allegedly of Sheba) and this person was clearly visible and of average intellect as can be expected by a person without spiritual insight/ascension. It was no supernatural being but a standard non-elevated human who could not think outside of the box while the man blessed with knowledge could devise something outside the box and hence suggest something which would be over "before the blink of an eye" and that was through verbal skill, i.e. diplomacy. The jinn could only suggest violence as a means of stopping unrighteous behavior that the queen's people were indulging in.
Unfortunately you are also using hadith sources identifying the Queen as sheba.
"And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of jinn and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks." (Quran 27:17)
Hosts translation of junūduhu which does not mean troops or military force unless you believe in hadith. To prophet Lut God sent malaika, why would it be so incredible for Solomon to have had guests of Jinn nature at his court?
Quote from: Man of Faith on January 06, 2015, 02:57:31 AM
Oh God. Jinn as a supernatural being is just plain superstition. Jinn is a life perception, notably being faithless and not a type of creation.
Prove it.
Quote from: runninglikezebras on January 11, 2015, 12:56:26 AM
I don't share your activism. I'm not here to enlighten anyone. Only God guides who He wills. I'm only here for intellectual debate so I can improve my understanding of Quran. Contributions from others are most welcome even if they are criticism. It helps me test an understanding which can always be wrong. The worst thing however is no reaction at all, which makes posting anything here not really worthwile.
What you say, should be counted towards you, and you'll be better served not to depend on necessary reactions, but I wrote similarly on the topic here in this email:
Haha, yes of course you're right. I tell them to read my posts so that they might go to the page that has them all, so that I don't have to keep repeating to them and can just relax and tell them to go check it out there and tell me what they think.
For me, it isn't really important if they listen or not as I explain here:
"You're doing well! Except that we would perhaps derive the most benefit from our actions here by focusing on using all kinds of opportunities to say beautiful things regarding the nature of Allah, which has been my style for many posts, because regardless if they listen or not, it is what we say that matters."
and on Youtube, there was a discussion I briefly got involved in which explained:
Neo said to Sofia:
I would suggest you stop wasting your time trying to debate anyone here. People are going to stick to their traditions and to what they were taught at home. So few are challenged by real arguements about god cause to them, god is about faith and not logic. I know from personal experience how infuriating that can be but this is how the world is unfortunately.
Sofia said to Neo:
It is just sad to see the kinds of excuses people will make up in order to defend this nonsense. It is really a shining example of what childhood indoctrination can do to people.
Neo then said:
If i were to respond to this effing child story, i would be writing for hours. Ignorance is bliss, ignorant.
Then I said (my name there is A Foxy Fox):
I think it was very kind of you to be concerned about any experience of anxiety and frustration coming to people, and I know you weren't talking to me in particular, but in my case I type about these things because I get to learn ways of communicating with people and saying good things which other people might see too, while enjoying what I type as well, and learning what people say and how to respond to those specific things even if they don't listen there is something potentially being gained here about communication, and finally perhaps some small seed is laid in the minds of people that might lead them to a better understanding of things, so I think what Sofia has done throughout this thread has been worthwhile and not merely frustrating for her hopefully, since she has made some beautiful logical arguments which have hopefully made people wonder a little.
Then Neo said to me:
Maybe you are right. But through platforms such as the Internet where anonimity prevails, it truly is remarkably rare for people to swallow down their pride, shut down their defences and listen to what they have been taught to not listen but counter with their own arguements. Internet conversations are deaffend to the hope of wisdom and knowledge. There is no right or wrong, no winners and no losers. Only people who simply stop replying. All of this comes from my experience. I have not done a poll to draw any of these conclusions nor am i currently under any negative emotions that affect my reply. I simply believe too many people lack a self of humanity when debating beliefs online. And i do not think this will ever change as long as anonimity prevails.
Then in between I replied to someone else who talked about their religion which appeared to be Islam, and I said:
Your religion is Islam! Excellent! Though I will make one correction here, which is that it really isn't "up there" anywhere, the Qur'an says (as you said) that this life is transitory and illusory because it isn't lasting, but that the Earth will be destroyed, and a New Earth will be created that is more spacious than the sky and the Earth combined, and the people will be resurrected/recreated and will be Judged and sorted into the paradise which is inheriting the New Earth or the place of punishment, which is also part of the New Earth.
Allah is like nothing, literally, not made of any information but that which creates all information. Everything is information, down to our thoughts, our deeds, our technologies, our experiences, the events, everything, and Allah can easily create and destroy and transform and animate all information, even down to changing the memories of people and their "past" or make them think a certain thing or make them practice a certain thing, and in a moment can make the information different and make the person realize the change or make the person oblivious to the change, Allah has power over all information, over all things absolutely, and is unlike anything because Allah is not made of information at all and was "before" information or "beyond" it in a sense, even though Allah is behind everything, Allah is not empty space, or pure blackness, or pure whiteness, or dimensions, or space, or size, or limitations or laws of any kind, because all those things are made of information. Allah is what everything depends on every moment in order to exist, animating everything, creating all events and happenings and motion and comprehension. Non-information is skipped because all we can experience is information and information that is constantly changing (if you could only see blackness, information would still be changing since you would be thinking and that is how you would comprehend and continue to comprehend and have a sense of "time" but if your thoughts were frozen and no new information was coming or able to move the whole "period" would be skipped entirely, just like death is skipped because it is "non-information" so we can't experience the "time" involved, and similarly, death and unconsciousness like in sleep are both called "returning to Allah" because they are skipped experiences of non-information and non-individuation (we are only individuated by information, and our specific set of information is what "we are" and includes everything we see and experience which is specific to us).
I thought you might enjoy hearing some of these things, and I hope you don't mind anything that I have said, thank you for your nice post.
Oh, I will say also, that not everything has to be "good", Allah does whatever Allah wants to do, and has no law binding, but is free entirely, the only true Free Will, that does whatever, but it is so intertwined with our existence that we are ignorantly made to think our desires and our will is merely our own when it is actually Allah doing everything, leading some to harm and some to benefit. Allah can and does freely harm people, and can do it for any number of reasons or no reason at all because Allah alone has the power, we can not do anything but surrender, because Allah can not be stopped or defeated (otherwise we should have fought and defeated Allah, but reality itself depends on Allah and Allah can not be harmed and is controlling even us) so this is the religion of Islam, the Surrender, willingly or unwillingly, Allah is the one we are entirely surrendered to.
_________
Then I said to Neo:
I believe you are absolutely correct in what you say, and that it will remain this way as long as the conditions remain the same, but I think that the focus should be different. If one is coming or going anywhere in the hope of "winning" against people, they will certainly "lose" many things in the process, such as their time, and perhaps even their calm, but that is why I think it is better if one does not come or go to places to "win" against people, but instead to focus on themselves, their conduct, their beautiful speech, so that even if those they are communicating to can not see it, one has practiced something which is pleasurable, like a bird singing a song, and then there may be those who come along and notice it as well, but they should not be the point either, just that we are focused on our actions rather than the results, so that we are practicing beautiful speech and actions and not on if our "opponent" at the time has listened or not, the opponents are just the catalyst for taking beautiful actions and practicing something potentially pleasurable, also leaving something of a mark behind, creating something like a sculpture of words that another may also learn from or be influenced to possibly imitate. So when the focus becomes like that, these actions do not become so dreadful seeming, nor may we feel our time is wasted or that all this was in vain. It is an exercise, a practice, and a honing of our communicative abilities, we train in typing, we train in speech patterns, and we can use this experience to gain good for ourselves by our own practice. What you said is absolutely true though, if one is not gaining from this, if one is not enjoying this, they should absolutely flee.
Then Neo said to me:
Your choice of words is very carefully picked and i respect that. It is evident that practising your speech skills is not something you have taken lightly throughout your life. I really enjoyed comming to a conclusion with you and wish you all the strength required to remain on the road in search of grace, hope and beauty in even the smalles of things
Then I said to Neo:
Thank you so much, and I liked what you wrote and particularly the compassion that drove you to make your comments in the first place, it really comes from a good place. If you would like any further correspondence you can email me at foxyfoxgames at gmail dot com
___________
Then I shared it with you! So that anything you might derive from it anything of interest or what you might find good!
So yes, I agree with what you are saying, but my intention when I offer that people read all my posts, isn't really expecting them to read them, but only to be used against them, that they really turned away even when invited or directed. So I do it in order that they either reject or accept my offer, and what they do will be counted towards them only. So my intentions with them aren't that I really deeply desire that they read it, or that I feel I am being ignored, but like I explained to the guy, I am like a bird singing a song, and enjoying praising Allah (but I am certainly pleased that you at least read my words and Allah has made me aware that they are being read, but even if no one were to see them, I saw them, and my "receivers on the right and the left" my own ears and eyes, have seen it and witnessed it, and all this is "proving" or "making manifest" who is good and who might not be, who speaks the best, and who does not make a fair estimation of Allah.
So to explain again, I wanted to extend my gratefulness for all your reading of my writing, and though I see them disbelieve and act suspiciously towards me I am not disheartened but instead excited to see that even among such people on a Muslim forum they can reject or say things that are wrong, and I am reminded of Allah's great favor on me for allowing me to think and say these things I do, and reminded that Allah has not made others to say these things, and afraid about how Allah could make me ignorant in an instant or set me astray or even now me be sending me astray without my being able to do anything about it.
I say to people "Here is the Qur'an" or I say to people "Please if you would be so kind as to click my name and check out my writings so far and tell me what you think" not with the intention that they will by such an invitation actually do it, but with the intention of proving that they are not able to do it or wont do it, or if they will do it, so basically like I'm inviting them to take action and show what they are, so that if they ignore it that will be counted against them potentially, and if they read it and hate it and let me know, that too can be a result, but mainly I expect that they will ignore my offer, which is kind of the point, to show that they are those who turn away even from a nice offer and aren't allowed (I understand it makes it seem suspicious, but I'm definitely not here to convince anyone because I know I can't, I'm here as a kind of "litmus test" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litmus_test_(politics) )
I don't think I'd ever put so much energy into this if it were a matter of trying to convince people of anything or make them read my words, I am doing it so that I say good things, and they can be used as a reason or a reference point to refine my own sayings or point out things. For example, Allah has used them to show me how they take "Justice" as more important than Allah or "19" as more important than Allah, and because of the foolish things they say, I end up saying beautiful things in reply, so I'm very happy with the process and the results coming from me and it is bad for them and good for me. Allah thereby "proves" people against and with each other, by "proving" what they are.
My mother too would have an initial reaction of saying "don't worry, don't have to bother with such people" but I explain that by such activities I am saying beautiful things, making beautiful speeches I wouldn't want to miss out on, and even refining and learning from dealing with different opposing ideas. Meanwhile, they are being proven as what they are and all that will be brought up on the Judgment Day.
What we're witnessing are miracles right before our eyes, the things the Qur'an says, of how people will act, who are the believers, who are not the believers, its a beautiful performance and show!
So my invitation to them, is (forgive my phrasing) an invitation to hell in some ways. I do it purposefully in order that they either accept or reject the offer, and I do it courteously especially so that they have no excuses on the matter. So I say, "please, if you could be so kind to read what I have written" not with an expectation that such a request will certainly work, but so that they prove that they are defiant even to polite requests and are not allowed to see, and that if they do read it, that they are perhaps not allowed to understand, so it is like an invitation to prove what they are.
So I agree totally that I may seem suspicious or bad, and that people may be reading what I write or not reading what I write (I don't really place much importance if they actually read anything I write or not, I am just grateful that you particularly are reading what I write for now and have shown me and are appreciated which is a comforting and kind thing and makes me very happy too which I take as a gift from Allah and a comfort from Allah), but it isn't important at all if they read what I write or not, I think what is happening is that the things I say are for me a beautiful speech that refines me, and for them a thing which proves what they are made of, what they are, if they surrender or not, allowed to see or not, and none of it is really my affair whether they believe or don't believe, read or don't read, but that Allah made it available for them, and proved thereby who is allowed and who is not allowed, it is a total miracle!
I hope that I am able to explain what I am meaning, I am saying that this whole event is my inviting them to the fire, and I say that humorously, the way I might joke with my family (so please forgive my humorous attitude which is something natural to me). I seem to be there to be like "here look at this!" and open the book and the light shines on their face and they flee headlong, blinded lol I like to imagine it as a funny thing like that, meanwhile, that the same good words shine on you and I and we enjoy it so much!
So be heartened, that I am not disheartened! I am very pleased with how I am writing and what I am writing, and inviting them to trouble and good, and so glad you like what I write, and glad even for those who don't believe it, because they refine me, and Allah proves what we are, what we are made to be, by these events!
Quote from: hawk99 on January 10, 2015, 01:23:02 AM
Thank you FreedomStands for your reply.
I do not agree that the jinn is a faithless person as the Quran clearly debunks that idea, I also try
not to inject what is not there, such as plasma. I only pointed out that your translation of 6/38
has inherent problems. Hope I do not sound harsh.
God bless you
:peace:
I didn't just inject "plasma" out of nowhere though. When it says "smokeless fire" and "fire intensely hot" that can be known as "plasma" today.
"The flame is the visible portion of the fire. If hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma." according to Wikipedia.
So when I was saying they are made of plasma, all I meant is "fire intensely hot" like the Qur'an mentions.
In any case though, I've directly dealt with stuff and have photographs and video and whatever, and they appear most often like an amorphous gas or mist and can become agitated and become like an irritated little flustered cloud.
If they come closed or rub on a person the hairs stand up like static electricity, and looking into them or through them there appears to be little particles bouncing around almost like static or rain, which I call "static rain".
They themselves are not apparently intensely hot except if they collide and disperse it can give a "cold sting" like something intensely hot for a moment but feels like cold how intense heat does.
They are mentioned throughout the world and history, in Rome they were said to be made of "aer" the "lower gasses" because that is how they appear (whatever it is I'm talking about).
We know that normal fires have smoke because they are burning something up, so already the Qur'an is indicating something else which they didn't have a word for when "smokeless fire" and "fire intensely hot" is being mentioned and "flame of fire", it seems pretty clearly a reference to the "smokeless fire" or "flame" which is known as "plasma" today and is one of the materials that was pretty early in the Universe, though they aren't pure plasma or flame or anything either it seems, just as we're not pure mud.
I just saw some guest was viewing this topic that is why I came back here.
"Plasma is the most abundant form of ordinary matter in the Universe, most of which is in the rarefied intergalactic regions, particularly the intracluster medium, and in stars, including the Sun."
It is just a shorter word for "smokeless flame of fire intensely hot", in the way I'm using it.
Quote from: FreedomStands on July 04, 2015, 04:12:21 PM
I didn't just inject "plasma" out of nowhere though. When it says "smokeless fire" and "fire intensely hot" that can be known as "plasma" today.
"The flame is the visible portion of the fire. If hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma." according to Wikipedia.
So when I was saying they are made of plasma, all I meant is "fire intensely hot" like the Qur'an mentions.
In any case though, I've directly dealt with stuff and have photographs and video and whatever, and they appear most often like an amorphous gas or mist and can become agitated and become like an irritated little flustered cloud.
If they come closed or rub on a person the hairs stand up like static electricity, and looking into them or through them there appears to be little particles bouncing around almost like static or rain, which I call "static rain".
They themselves are not apparently intensely hot except if they collide and disperse it can give a "cold sting" like something intensely hot for a moment but feels like cold how intense heat does.
They are mentioned throughout the world and history, in Rome they were said to be made of "aer" the "lower gasses" because that is how they appear (whatever it is I'm talking about).
We know that normal fires have smoke because they are burning something up, so already the Qur'an is indicating something else which they didn't have a word for when "smokeless fire" and "fire intensely hot" is being mentioned and "flame of fire", it seems pretty clearly a reference to the "smokeless fire" or "flame" which is known as "plasma" today and is one of the materials that was pretty early in the Universe, though they aren't pure plasma or flame or anything either it seems, just as we're not pure mud.
I just saw some guest was viewing this topic that is why I came back here.
"Plasma is the most abundant form of ordinary matter in the Universe, most of which is in the rarefied intergalactic regions, particularly the intracluster medium, and in stars, including the Sun."
It is just a shorter word for "smokeless flame of fire intensely hot", in the way I'm using it.
Peace FreedomStands, I find no dispute or agreement with what you say,
because it is your hypothesis, but not supported by Quran Kareem. I
do favor the mystical meaning personality type of mud/clay and firery.
God bless
8)
Quote from: hawk99 on July 04, 2015, 05:48:58 PM
Peace FreedomStands, I find no dispute or agreement with what you say,
because it is your hypothesis, but not supported by Quran Kareem. I
do favor the mystical meaning personality type of mud/clay and firery.
God bless
8)
Oh ok, I took it more literally yeah, since humans are real creatures, jinn are real creatures (I know you're not disputing that, plus it wouldn't even matter because I personally know they are just real creatures, or whatever I'm calling jinn anyway), and since I took the humans being made out of mud literally, I took the jinn being made out of fire literally as well. I don't find humans to particularly "humble" or "dirty" or any number of the associations with "mud" and jinn to be particularly "fiesty" or anything. Many jinn are quite gentle and graceful, floating around, sniffing gasoline or rotten food.
So what is the mystical meaning you take from those verses? What is the mystical interpretation of "mud" and "fire"? I'm just curious. I don't mind so much anyway either or both versions, I tend towards taking those verses mostly literally with maybe some symbolism involved.
It also might not make total sense, like Satan's racist complaint being that he has more of a fiery personality? When the Qur'an repeatedly says humans are made of mud, it seems literal, and says humans are "made of haste" which seems more like fire symbolically.
I don't know, can you explain your preferences and ideas?
It is illogical because nothing can be made of fire.
However, the "outer layer" (jinn) of this world is made of a strange phenomenon called atoms which if split emit energy and which word (naar) in Quran is used to speak of light/heat. Quran is therefore scientifically correct. If it was not correct and from people with inferior knowledge of science it would not argue as such. It is thus the atoms in form of molecules that makes the "outer layer" (dress) of the universe as we know and perceive it.
But if you like your fiery supernatural beings then stick to them.
To me satan is the "instinctive drive" of the flesh. Therefore Quran says Satan is of the jinn, because it refers to the worldly drive or what the atoms forming molecules causes to be done in the flesh due to the "ruh quds" (traditionally Holy Spirit).
It is humans who create nonexistent images such as Satan while there never was any person called Satan based on their imagination and failure to comprehend.
Be well
Quote from: Man of Faith on July 05, 2015, 01:17:30 AM
It is illogical because nothing can be made of fire.
However, the "outer layer" (jinn) of this world is made of a strange phenomenon called atoms which if split emit energy and which word (naar) in Quran is used to speak of light/heat. Quran is therefore scientifically correct. If it was not correct and from people with inferior knowledge of science it would not argue as such. It is thus the atoms in form of molecules that makes the "outer layer" (dress) of the universe as we know and perceive it.
But if you like your fiery supernatural beings then stick to them.
To me satan is the "instinctive drive" of the flesh. Therefore Quran says Satan is of the jinn, because it refers to the worldly drive or what the atoms forming molecules causes to be done in the flesh due to the "ruh quds" (traditionally Holy Spirit).
It is humans who create nonexistent images such as Satan while there never was any person called Satan based on their imagination and failure to comprehend.
Be well
They aren't supernatural, we can just rename whatever I'm talking about something else.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4174-plasma-blobs-hint-at-new-form-of-life.html#.VZi_B_mhSnA
Maybe some day they will be on the level, but in any case I'm talking about plasma based life forms, which aren't supernatural, I've video taped them, seen video of them, communicated with them with witnesses, dealt with them, its nothing mystical at all, no channeling, no possession. They are just a different sort of life form made out of something different than us, we are made of "mud" but "nothing can be made of mud" its talking about carbon matter which we are made of and flame of fire intensely hot which is plasma, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I might doubt it too had I not personally dealt with these clearly visible to everyones eyes creatures, photographed them, communicated with them, had witnesses and whatever else, no magic tricks involved. You can find them pretty easily. If you don't want to call them jinn though, we can just call them something else.
Quote from: FreedomStands on July 05, 2015, 01:28:07 AM
They aren't supernatural, we can just rename whatever I'm talking about something else.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4174-plasma-blobs-hint-at-new-form-of-life.html#.VZi_B_mhSnA
Maybe some day they will be on the level, but in any case I'm talking about plasma based life forms, which aren't supernatural, I've video taped them, seen video of them, communicated with them with witnesses, dealt with them, its nothing mystical at all, no channeling, no possession. They are just a different sort of life form made out of something different than us, we are made of "mud" but "nothing can be made of mud" its talking about carbon matter which we are made of and flame of fire intensely hot which is plasma, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I might doubt it too had I not personally dealt with these clearly visible to everyones eyes creatures, photographed them, communicated with them, had witnesses and whatever else, no magic tricks involved. You can find them pretty easily. If you don't want to call them jinn though, we can just call them something else.
I call them humans or I call them stones. It is the same.
Be well
Quote from: FreedomStands on July 04, 2015, 05:57:35 PM
Oh ok, I took it more literally yeah, since humans are real creatures, jinn are real creatures (I know you're not disputing that, plus it wouldn't even matter because I personally know they are just real creatures, or whatever I'm calling jinn anyway), and since I took the humans being made out of mud literally, I took the jinn being made out of fire literally as well. I don't find humans to particularly "humble" or "dirty" or any number of the associations with "mud" and jinn to be particularly "fiesty" or anything. Many jinn are quite gentle and graceful, floating around, sniffing gasoline or rotten food.
So what is the mystical meaning you take from those verses? What is the mystical interpretation of "mud" and "fire"? I'm just curious. I don't mind so much anyway either or both versions, I tend towards taking those verses mostly literally with maybe some symbolism involved.
It also might not make total sense, like Satan's racist complaint being that he has more of a fiery personality? When the Qur'an repeatedly says humans are made of mud, it seems literal, and says humans are "made of haste" which seems more like fire symbolically.
I don't know, can you explain your preferences and ideas?
Sure FreedomStands, the mud and fire analogies are general
metaphors depicting the nature of the two types of invisible entities that
inhabit the human body.
God bless
:peace:
Quote from: hawk99 on July 05, 2015, 06:26:39 AM
Sure FreedomStands, the mud and fire analogies are general
metaphors depicting the nature of the two types of invisible entities that
inhabit the human body.
God bless
:peace:
How can you come to that conclusion after reading the Qur'an though when it talks about the Jinn in the Surah called The Jinn?
Children of Adam, the mud people, seem to be a reference to humankind.
Could you explain your beliefs?
So the jinn, which is part of the human body in a mystical way, were "created before" the human race? According to the Qur'an. Can this idea make sense?
Quote from: FreedomStands on July 05, 2015, 04:22:04 PM
How can you come to that conclusion after reading the Qur'an though when it talks about the Jinn in the Surah called The Jinn?
Children of Adam, the mud people, seem to be a reference to humankind.
Could you explain your beliefs?
So the jinn, which is part of the human body in a mystical way, were "created before" the human race? According to the Qur'an. Can this idea make sense?
Peace FreedomStands, the prevailing consensus on this subject has so many gaps
that it is difficult to arrive at any sensible collective conclusion. I will start by enumerating
the characteristics of the jinn and we and other forum members can work from there.
Characteristics of the Jinn
1. Arrogance
2. Can talk 6/112 ??? ??
3. Received messengers 6/130
4. Have nations or communities
5. Will end up in heaven or hell
6. Feel superior for some reason (culture, ethnicity, race, wealth etc.,)
7. A companion
8. Intelligent
9. Refuse to serve man (not worship)
10. Worked for Solomon
and many more................
From this list we can deduce that the jinn are very familiar to us humans.
So who are they?
God bless
:peace:
Hello readers,
Humans are at the 3rd density/dimensional state of existence. They have consciousness and free will to choose between STS (service to self) or STO (service to others) path.
Jinns AKA aliens are at 4th or higher density states of existence. They have all of the above plus their sub atomic particles are made of strings of energy vibrating at a different frequency than the lower densities so their "bodies" appear different, with different physical properties. For example they can cloak themselves from the lower densities, have ability of telepathic communication, can materialize as 3rd density beings, exist as a collective, exist on planets that are uninhabitable to lower density entities, have advanced intelligence, technology and spiritual abilities, have extremely long lifespans ranging from 100,000 years to millions of years at highest densities etc. Their bodies become less and less dense and more and more light as the densities increase.
This can be researched by studying the rapidly increasing body of evidence about "aliens" that has accumulated since the dawn of mankind, including archeological evidence, encounters of the third and fourth kind, UFO sightings and videos, alien autopsies after UFO crashes etc. If anyone is interested I will be happy to summarize some of these evidences which you can then research in more detail.
Please feel free to discard this if it does not resonate with your beliefs or views.
Peace
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 01, 2015, 07:14:43 PM
If anyone is interested I will be happy to summarize some of these evidences which you can then research in more detail.
Peace
Peace truthseeker11, please summarize your evidence for all to learn the details. Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 01, 2015, 07:14:43 PM
They have consciousness and free will to choose between STS (service to self) or STO (service to others) path.
I agree
God bless you
8)
Peace everyone,
The following is a brief summary from my notes, in no chronological order. Readers are free to discard this if it doesn't resonate with their beliefs and views.
UFO crash Freiburg, Germany, 1936.
UFO crash, Roswell, New Mexico, 1947. Bodies of EBE (extra terrestrial biological entitities) recovered. Taken to Wright Patterson air force base and then to Area 51. Autopsy on EBE performed at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. Autopsy revealed that EBE (AKA Grey Aliens) had no digestive system but had a respiratory system. There were no sex organs. Eyes had a black lens for night vision. Brains had 4 hemispheres as opposed to 2 hemispheres in humans. In the crashed UFO there were handprints on panels where aliens put their hands and controlled the spacecraft by signals from brains - a direct mental interface. Please look up "Stringfield Files".
UFO crash Kecksburg, Pennsylvania, 1965
Please look up "Edgar Fouche, TR-3B" for details about American built UFO reverse engineered from Alien UFOs.
Varginha, Brazil, 1996, 7 aliens found wandering in street, witnessed by many people. Brazilian officials turned them over to USA government. 2 of the captured aliens died.
Kingman Incident, 1953, Kingman, Arizona reported by Arthur Stansel. There was a UFO crash and alien body was recovered.
"Guy Hottel Memo" was sent to Edgar Hoover about UFO crashes in 1947 in New Mexico. Alien bodies were recovered.
San Augustin, New Mexico, 1947. Alien seen by roadside in evening by a rancher driving his truck. Rancher drove alien to his home and offered food but alien won't eat. Alien had disappeared when the family woke up in morning.
Please look up "UFO crash in 1947, alien bodies recovered, Barney Barnett".
Please look up "Linda Moulton Howe, alien autopsies".
Please look up "2013 Citizens hearing held on UFOs in Washington, DC".
Phoenix, Arizona, 3/1997, thousands of witnesses saw UFO's, multiple camera shot pictures, videos from multiple angles, UFOs were triangular shaped.
Eupen, Belgium, UFO wave, November 1989 to Spring 1990, over 1000 sightings, 1500 witnesses, multiple photos, UFOs were black and triangular.
US government has finally admitted crash of UFO, Roswell, New Mexico, 1947.
Please look up "Washington Flap". US government admitted existence of UFOs when 7 UFOs flew over Washington, DC, 1952.
Somerset, England, 1993, wave of UFO sightings. Several dozen witnesses including air force officers. UK government also admitted seeing them.
Dulce, New Mexico, southwest of Archuleta Mesa, secret underground base and lab discovered in 8/1979. Alien human fire fight broke out. Phil Shneider, army engineer, was injured, some humans and aliens died in the fight. In the lab, aliens were performing experimentation on humans, harvesting their organs, human mutilations, stem cell and DNA research on humans was being performed by aliens.
Utah, canyon land national park, alien rock coating AKA desert varnish discovered, which is found only on Mars.
Thousands of years old petroglyphs discovered on rocks, depicting tall thin beings in body space suits.
Colares Incident, Brazil, 1977-1978, victims attacked and samples taken by alien visitors, 35 people received radiation burns. Air force attacked UFOs but were helpless. 200 UFOs reported over 4 month period. Ionizing and non ionizing radiation, and high powered pulse microwaves found.
Tehran Incident, 9/1976, F-4 Phantom fighter jet dispatched after UFO, fighter jet instrument panel fails near UFO. 2nd fighter jet dispatched but its electronics shut down as soon as missile fire button pressed.
UFO crash, Dalnegorsk, Russia, 1986, strange metallic beads recovered.
Cumbria, England, 1964, Solway Firth Spaceman captured on photo. Kodak offered reward to anyone who can prove image to be fake.
Socorro, New Mexico, 4/1964, Zamora Incident. Police officer Zamora had close encounter of 3rd kind, saw 2 humanoid figures standing next to UFO on ground.
Ted Davenport, Alamogordo, New Mexico, 1975, close encounter of 4th kind, saw aliens and blacked out. Aliens were small humanoid beings. 5 years later MRI revealed metallic implant in his brain.
Travis Walton, Arizona, 11/1975, alien abduction. Abducted by 5 feet tall humanoid beings. He was found 5 days later several miles from abduction site.
Rendelsham Forest Incident, UK, 12/1980, involving 2 US air force bases. 3 nights of consecutive UFO activity. 1st night triangular UFO landed with strange symbols on it, one airman touches the craft. Radiation later detected at landing site. Deputy commander of base Colonel Halt witnessed the UFOs.
Gary McKinnon hacked into NASA computers in 2001 and found evidence of extra terrestrial alien air force officers and pictures of alien spaceships like USSS Hillenkoetter. Found evidence of a secret alien space force.
Peru Incident, La Joya, 4/1980, direct cannon fired by SU-22 Russian fighter jet hits UFO with no damage whatsoever.
Allagash abduction, Maine, 8/1976. 4 men fishing on boat in lake, later found to have missing time. Remembered abduction by aliens under regression hypnosis. Medical procedures were performed on them by aliens.
Betty and Barney Hill abduction, 9/1961, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, one of the most famous and well documented alien abduction.
Travis Walton abduction, Arizona, 11/1975. Taken aboard mother ship for 5 days.
Corina Saebels, multiple repeated abductions.
Tremonton film, 1950s, video of fleet of UFOs.
Mariana film, 1950, video of UFOs.
Janos Incident, 6/1978, Gloucester, UK, John Mann and family abducted, taken to mother ship where they saw 10 million aliens. They were told by aliens that their home planet Janos was destroyed by its moon and offered to share propulsion technology in return for permission to land and stay on Earth!
Papua, New Guinea wave, 6/1959. Local priest Father Gill and any locals witnessed around 30-40 UFO sightings. Humanoid entities seen in windows of UFO, who waved back to the people!
Please look up "Die Glocke".
Please look up "Project High Jump".
Please look up "Project Pegasus".
Please look up "Project Montauk".
Please look up "Nazca Lines".
Please look up "Sumerian inscriptions and the Annunaki".
Please look up "Vimanas".
Please read the book or watch the video "Chariots of the gods" if you can.
https://subharanjangupta.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/chariots_of_the_gods1.pdf
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JQwMWEB0sQk
Please watch all seasons of "Ancient Aliens", "George Tsoukolos", "Ancient Aliens - the Ultimate Evidence".
Peace and regards.
Hello readers,
Intellectually adventurous readers please feel free to read the following message from a 6th density/dimension alien to humanity, transmitted to humanity in the 1980s, and judge this material on its own merits. I found striking resemblances with al-quran in its key fundamental messages and came across some other mind boggling material relevant to jinns/aliens and some other scientific stuff. It also mentions Muhammad, Jesus and Moses and gives a hint where the "biblical" teachings originated from!
http://www.llresearch.org/library/the_law_of_one_pdf/the_law_of_one_pdf.aspx
Narrow minded, close minded and dogmatic people should kindly refrain from reading this material!
Peace and regards.
Quote from: hawk99 on August 01, 2015, 02:55:18 PM
Peace FreedomStands, the prevailing consensus on this subject has so many gaps
that it is difficult to arrive at any sensible collective conclusion. I will start by enumerating
the characteristics of the jinn and we and other forum members can work from there.
Characteristics of the Jinn
1. Arrogance
2. Can talk 6/112 ??? ??
3. Received messengers 6/130
4. Have nations or communities
5. Will end up in heaven or hell
6. Feel superior for some reason (culture, ethnicity, race, wealth etc.,)
7. A companion
8. Intelligent
9. Refuse to serve man (not worship)
10. Worked for Solomon
and many more................
From this list we can deduce that the jinn are very familiar to us humans.
So who are they?
God bless
:peace:
Many people can use the word to mean anything else, I am using the word to mean a specific type of creature, if you want to call that creature "gimbles" then we will call them "gimbles".
Freedomstands,
They are humans with severed link to God. Could also be called non-spiritual or blind sheep.
Be well
Quote from: Man of Faith on August 02, 2015, 11:28:40 PM
Freedomstands,
They are humans with severed link to God. Could also be called non-spiritual or blind sheep.
Be well
Sure, you can take the word to mean that, I'll call what I am talking about "gimbles" then, totally different thing. I've dealt with the "severed link" people and "gimbles" as well.
Excellent, freedomstands.
Salam,
I'd really like to meet a jin. What should i do Freedom Stands?
Peace
Quote from: Kingkreem on December 04, 2015, 07:20:45 AM
Salam,
I'd really like to meet a jin. What should i do Freedom Stands?
Peace
discover the properties of unseen if you can. then may b you are able to meet jinn.
there are experts who can communicate with jinn . 99 percent are fake though.
but this is study of unseen whereas science is a study of seen matter so scientifically until the end of world this topic will stay in the discussion of supersticious thing. unless science discover something to see unseen thing from the technology of seen thing.
peace:
(7:27) O children of Adam! Do not allow Satan to seduce you in the same way as he caused your ancestors to be driven out of the garden: he deprived them of their garment in order to make them aware of their nakedness. Verily, he and his tribe are lying in wait for you where you cannot perceive them! Verily, We have placed satanic forces near unto those who do not believe;
(7:28) and [so,] whenever they commit a shameful deed, they are wont to say, "We found our forefathers doing it," and, "God has enjoined it upon us." Say: "Behold, never does God enjoin deeds of abomination. Would you attribute unto God something of which you have no knowledge?"
Muslims claiming that they can see jins, is like Cristians claiming they can see the devils, spirits.
Our Human senses only allow us to see a very narrow line of the world created. but, if somebody is able to see the soul/spirit of a person leaving the body when death comes, then maybe such person can see Jins and devils. whenever they commit a shameful deed, they are wont to say, "We found our forefathers doing it
Jeremiah 29:8-9
8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the Lord.
leviticus 19:3131 ?You are to consult neither mediums nor familiar spirits. You are never to seek them?you?ll just be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 20:27 A man or woman that consults spirit, or that do divination, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
may God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
Quote from: wrkmmn on March 12, 2016, 01:09:57 PM
peace:
Muslims claiming that they can see jins, is like Cristians claiming they can see the devils, spirits.
may God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
I agree no body can see jinn.. atleast not with wordly eyes..
but you can feel their presence.. or you can also communicate with them ( its not my observation I didn't feel this anytime in my life)
but that's what experts says about it I dnt know is it true or not but when I see some signs from quran a liitle bit help u can see in the case of adam and eve and Solomon team of these creatures.. and also last two chapters are somewhat similar to hidden knowledge whatever God created
allah knows best.