Free Minds

General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Cloudylemonade on December 05, 2014, 09:55:50 AM

Title: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Cloudylemonade on December 05, 2014, 09:55:50 AM
Hi all!

I have been doing some research and would like opinions. I have been reading that the bakka mentioned in the Quran is Jerusalem, it does make perfect sense to me and I find that I do feel Jerusalem is more "special" to me than Mecca this is more an emotional feeling when I look at pictures ect.

My question is where does the Kaaba and Mecca fit in? Is there any relevance to it in islam?  Obviously millions of people make pilgrimage to it so are all these people misguided?

Any info would be greatly received :)

Thanks
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 05, 2014, 10:43:05 AM
Personally I do not believe in that at all. It is all a hoax. I have done a linguistic analysis and the word appears to be one and the same but with different prefix and not refer to a location.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Cloudylemonade on December 05, 2014, 10:55:21 AM
So what does it mean to you then?
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 05, 2014, 11:15:37 AM
I am not 100% certain,  but it is not a proper noun and it refers to formation of character as in attain a specific character. The M in Mekka is due to a referential word and B in Bekka is accusative. In fact there are two b's in the Bekka word, i.e. Bebakkateh.

According to me they are just innocent words in a narrative with linguistic use and more proper nouns. They only occur once respectively, and Quran seems to have a praxis of not mentioning locations by name. It is very anonymous.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Cloudylemonade on December 05, 2014, 11:56:01 AM
Ok so the kaaba in mecca is not islamic?
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on December 05, 2014, 01:09:58 PM
peace,

Here is a good place to start your research:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: hicham9 on December 05, 2014, 02:21:06 PM
Ok so the kaaba in mecca is not islamic?

The Quranic term 'kaabah' (كعبة) does not designate a "cubic idol" (with a black pseudometeorite stuffed in a vulva shaped ornament) in the middle of nowhere! [...] Kaabah (كعبة) simply means "hill" [...] see: Temple Mount (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount).

SLM
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 05, 2014, 10:41:38 PM
Harmony with you cloudy,

Not according to me. It is something derived from the scripture to create the religion Islam with all its rituals and rites and rules which are man-made fabrications.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Farabi on December 06, 2014, 05:16:57 AM
The Quranic term 'kaabah' (كعبة) does not designate a "cubic idol" (with a black pseudometeorite stuffed in a vulva shaped ornament) in the middle of nowhere! [...] Kaabah (كعبة) simply means "hill" [...] see: Temple Mount (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount).

SLM

Once I went to makkah, I think that pseudometeorite is not placed on Kabah anymore, it placed outside of Kabah with a cage. If Im not mistaken lots of people surround it. Do I misunderstood what my mom said?
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Farabi on December 06, 2014, 05:19:23 AM
Personally I do not believe in that at all. It is all a hoax. I have done a linguistic analysis and the word appears to be one and the same but with different prefix and not refer to a location.

Have faith

Anyway, Im curious, are you native arabic speaker?
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Cloudylemonade on December 06, 2014, 05:48:00 AM
Thank you for all your replies. I have looked into The idea of it being a hoax but can't find much info on it. What is the pilgrimage then where is that to if there is no physical Mecca/bacca/Kaaba.

Does it meant that the black kabba that everyone goes to is not Islamic and we shouldn't go there for religious purpose?
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Pazuzu on December 06, 2014, 06:44:56 AM
The so-called "Kaabah" of the Hijaz is a shrine dedicated to the planet Saturn. It was originally built in the 4th century AD by the tribe of Jurhum, who migrated from the Jawf area of Yemen. Nowadays it is surrounded by 5-star hotels and Masonic towers.

The Hajj mentioned in the Quran is no longer applicable today. Forget about it, and don't trouble yourself with this issue.

Peace.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: hicham9 on December 06, 2014, 09:34:54 AM
The Hajj mentioned in the Quran is no longer applicable today. Forget about it, and don't trouble yourself with this issue.

Peace Pazuzu,

I beg to disagree with the claim quoted above (see: 3:97, 5:97, ..)



Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Cloudylemonade on December 06, 2014, 11:06:18 AM
Thanks for your input pazuzu can you please tell me why it's not applicable today and was it to Mecca when it was applicable?
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Farabi on December 08, 2014, 07:00:29 AM
'Ibd al-hajj is never ceased, nor even temporary stoped since muhammad age, I think ka'bah position is still the same just like what people used to come. I personaly went to ka'bah, and I saw sofa and marwa even though now it had 3 floor of building.

Dont forget about this verse

5:2 O you who have believed, do not violate the rites of Allah or [the sanctity of] the sacred month or [neglect the marking of] the sacrificial animals and garlanding [them] or [violate the safety of] those coming to the Sacred House seeking bounty from their Lord and [His] approval. But when you come out of ihram, then [you may] hunt. And do not let the hatred of a people for having obstructed you from al-Masjid al-Haram lead you to transgress. And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

When I was on the bus, our bus insulting shiah who was visiting ali house, but as you might see, my people was wrong, they are in darkness. When you are doing hajj you are not allowed to do debate. And also, if youre not allowed to come to makkah dont let your hatred overwhelm you and you do injustice, let them be. Allah will help.

Peace be upon you.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 08, 2014, 01:02:23 PM
There are myriad problems with the literal quality of traditional interpretations about Hajj, Kabah and the so-called 'Masjed Haram', and all you get forth is a Pagan religion. But rationality has seldom been religious people's strong side concerning their practices.

And the cubic building covered in black was not always that form but it had an arch-shaped front which now only the remnants are there right in front of the building. You can see it on footage of the building. Sources indicate that the building fell apart due to erosion some half a millennium ago. The direction at which the building points with its original shape is towards Sinai alternative Jerusalem (I did some research a while ago). The building may have been a little church or similar in the beginning. It is a quite small building to have been erected as a temple for pilgrimage.

Quran avoids mentioning locations by name for a reason. The Mekkateh and Bakkateh are most likely a regular Arabic word in the discourse inferred to mean something which is does not by a bunch of ignorant people in the 800-900s who probably lens-read the text to be able to spot an innocent word to guess on a location to derive a Pagan site. They likely found 'Bekkah' in the Hebrew Tanakh and drew parallels and then begun to conjecture.

Quran is a spiritual guidance scripture, not a guide for this fleshy world. No locations need to be listed because the focus is on the moral lesson of the narratives.

People cannot even understand how to use the letter ة, so I am not expecting much though. A clue is that it exist in Hebrew too, like all other Arabic letters to except they have a different set of symbols, and in Hebrew you say 'teh' just as in Arabic. It is a contraction of ت and ه, for grammar reasons and ت refers to an entity with characteristics while the ه suggests implication on that entity as a result of the phrase in question. Same structure is used for the (in)famous aquyum assalateh, just because it suggests the person should adopt that characteristic "thereby".

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Farabi on December 10, 2014, 02:51:15 AM
Remember about Ibrahim wish to Allah. Arab was desert, there is almost difficult to grow wheat. By making people doing Al-hajj, people of arabic was helped because all muslims arround the world coming there brough food and animal to sacrificed. Alhajj is helping arab people to survive, and we cant let 'ibd al-hajj to cease, because it will be the death of the arabic.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: reel on December 10, 2014, 01:42:00 PM
Please note that we as Muslims are not allowed to delve into occult science. So what I am saying here is only for random educational purpose.

This is what I found out from western satanists/masons who utilize the so called sacred geometry. Certain locations of the earth give off energies either in the form of negative or positive. It has something to do with what they call spiritual or ley lines. Bermuda triangle, they say gives off negative energy. As for Kabah, it gives off positive energy. Do note that birds don't fly over Kabah. They just circle around it.

Masons that is why recognize Kabah. They don't intend to destroy it. The Saudi Royal family who also happens to be in the same position as Rothschilds takes pride in maintaining the place. It has nothing do with Islam, but superstitious belief coming from occult science. For us, Kabah is holy. Thats all should matter. But its not bad sometimes to laugh at those who despise Islam, yet get dumbfounded by the amazing mysteries surrounding Kabah.  ;)


Do check out here how atheists are also amazed by Kabah: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/archive/index.php/t-2054.html

Here is one video that speaks about Kabah from occult perspectives:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pH91Cule-M

Description: The Core of Islamic Teachings is identical to Russellian Science and the Cubic Wave fields Model of a Sacred Geometrical Universe. What this video series demonstrates is that Islam is based on the higher knowledge obtained by communion with the Universal One. We all have access to this knowledge since we are all part of the One. Walter Russell received this same information about the Cube and the Sphere while caught up in a state of divine ecstasy for a period of 39 days in the 1920's. Walter Russell did not obtain this information from studying Islamic Teachings yet they are identical at their core. This is proof of the divine Nature of these transcendent truths. The Universe is a Sacred Geometrical Construct with the Creator centering and bounding all geometries from the sub atomic to the super galactic. All is one. As above so below. The entire Universe conforms to geometrical patterns based on the cube and sphere, which produce atom, solar systems and galaxies

Thing to note: Kabah wasn't of cube shape before. It was rectangle. The shape has nothing to do with the positive energy spoken about by the other western satanists. I suppose its more about the ley line. They just don't have answer to why such energy flows from Kabah. All they say is that it can be felt or caught through experiment.

Here is another interesting fact, the tawaf done by people during Hajj is relevant to the direction of the movement of stars.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on December 12, 2014, 05:27:48 AM
peace reel, all,

Do note that birds don't fly over Kabah. They just circle around it.

False. See here for video (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605163.msg323827#msg323827).

For what the cuboid called Kaabah likely is, here is a good place to start:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/arabic.txt

Quote
North Arabia
     Allah (al-Ilahah) "the God"
     "Daughters of Allah"
          Allat (Ilat)   "the Goddess"  Mother goddess, Goddess of
                         Taif (east of Mecca)
               Shams     Sun goddess
                    ash-Shiraq  "the Rising One" (Male?)
                    Muharriq    "the Burner" (Male?)
               Chabou, Ka'bu [Nabatean/Petra] Virgin Sun Mother of
                         Dhu-al-Shara/Dushares

          al-Uzza, Lady `Uzzay-an  "the Most Mighty." Planet Venus
               ash-Sa'ida     "The Blessed"
               Azizos    "the Powerful"  Morning star
               Monimos   "the Benificent"  Evening star
          Manah, Manat [Nabatean/Petra], Maniya   "Fate"

     .
.
     Dhu-al-Shara/Dhu-'sh-Shara/Dushares [Nabatean/Petra] {Block of
               black stone, 4x2} Dying god, son of the Earth
               mother.  Sacred day, Dec 25.

    .
.

     Hubal     Chief god of Ka'bah (Allah?)

Root entry in Lane's Lexicon for Kaf-Ayn-Ba
Quote: "a house or temple belonging to the tribe of Rabee'ah, who used to compass it, or perform circuits round it (as is done round the Kabbeh of Mekkeh)".

e.g. Book: Mecca and Eden: ritual, relics and territory in islam (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nNQ_3aRdHPYC&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=dhu+al+shara&source=bl&ots=TvwkWvVzuV&sig=7O_z2LV93zlRfIx5eydC9o5FLNw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e9CKVKjtGYPmUuG8gvgH&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dhu%20al%20shara&f=false)

p26,
Quote
Such stones, especially black stones, were used as the main cult objects for the worship of other Arabian gods. According to Epiphanius the Nabatean God Dhu-shara (Dhu al Shara) was represented by something called "khaabou" which represented the deity. The Byzantine lexicographer Suidas reports that this was a black stone, roughly square, four feet high by two feet wide. Antoninus Placentinus relates that in Sinai the local Arabs had an idol which changed from snow white to pitch black..... Ibn al Kalbi relates that a number of Arab deities were represented by stones

Discussed in more detail here:
http://www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/language.htm

e.g.

Quote
In the fourth century AD, Epiphanius, the bishop of Salamis, Cyprus wrote a letter describing cults such as the Nabataean cult and their celebration of the festival of the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara around the winter solstice. It is interesting that the birth celebrations culminated with bringing forth from beneath the earth the image of the male infant idol, which was carried seven times around the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple. [See Langdon, S., Semitic Mythology, The Mythology of All Races, Vol. V. Boston: Archaeological Institute of America, Marshall Jones Company, 1931, page 19.]

.
.
The celebration of the idol's birth around the winter solstice is also an indication of a relationship to the sun. The present cube structure of Dhu Al-Shaara in Saudi Arabia also has evidence of its pagan purpose. For example, the cube is aligned such that the Southeast corner is in the direction of the winter sunrise. Interestingly, in that corner lies the so-called Black Stone, which is the most revered object by sectarians who love to kiss and fondle it.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 12, 2014, 08:04:45 AM
Good information, Wakas. Thanks.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: reel on December 12, 2014, 02:06:31 PM
Quote
False. See here for video.

Umm, they were doing the circling thing bro. The angle of the camera makes it look like they are on the top of the kabah. Look at it again.

Kabah was damaged by flood water. Qurayshis didnt have enough fund to put it back to rectangular shape. So ended up shrinking its size, turning it into a cube. But again, history says it was renovated too many times. Who made it is debatable. But Quran says Allah guided Prophet Ibrahim to construct it in that exact place.  Traditionalists like to believe it was built by Prophet Adam. It has no foundation in Quran. Western historians like to claim it was made for pagan deities first.



Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on December 12, 2014, 03:12:11 PM
Umm, they were doing the circling thing bro. The angle of the camera makes it look like they are on the top of the kabah. Look at it again.

I have watched it several times. It seems blatantly obvious to me that roughly the same amount are flying in arcs (it's difficult to pick out one bird that did a complete circle) and others are flying from one side to another, from almost all directions, sometimes opposite directions.

You make some more false statements:

Quote
Qurayshis didnt have enough fund to put it back to rectangular shape. So ended up shrinking its size, turning it into a cube.

False. It is not a cube, it is a cuboid (http://www.ask.com/math/difference-between-cube-cuboid-5d72cf2ec6caf5a0).

Also, what evidence are you referring to about Quraysh funding?

Quote
But Quran says Allah guided Prophet Ibrahim to construct it in that exact place.

False. Actually, the Quran verses you are likely alluding to are referring to "bayt" or "al bayt al muharam" which may or may not be the same as "kaabah". Also, Quran never mentions him building anything in "Makkah", only "Bakkah" (not kaabah though) which only has weak evidence suggesting "Bakkah" is the same as "Makkah".


The cuboid called Kaabah that is in Mecca today has no Quranic evidence for it. The evidence is based on secondary sources, mixed with Quran interpolations, assumptions etc. Albeit it is the common view, but common is not equivalent to evidenced.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 12, 2014, 11:15:25 PM
The building in Mecca was a generic church-like building in the past. Its arch-shaped foundation which originally hosted a wall is aligned towards Sinai alternatively Jerusalem.

A building should never be walked around performing Pagan rituals and revered for this is in violation of the spiritual law of Moses making it an idol. A temple is supposed to be used inside as a place to go and grow spiritually.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: reel on December 13, 2014, 02:06:10 PM
Quote
I have watched it several times. It seems blatantly obvious to me that roughly the same amount are flying in arcs (it's difficult to pick out one bird that did a complete circle) and others are flying from one side to another, from almost all directions, sometimes opposite directions.

You make some more false statements:
I don't see them fly over. I am looking for additional videos, but people just leave the angle of the camera towards the sky for which Kabah's part isnt showing up in them. Once I get a clear picture, I will believe it.

Quote
Qurayshis didnt have enough fund to put it back to rectangular shape. So ended up shrinking its size, turning it into a cube.
Typo there, cuboid, not cube.

Quote
Also, what evidence are you referring to about Quraysh funding?
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14305.165;wap2


Quote
False. Actually, the Quran verses you are likely alluding to are referring to "bayt" or "al bayt al muharam" which may or may not be the same as "kaabah". Also, Quran never mentions him building anything in "Makkah", only "Bakkah" (not kaabah though) which only has weak evidence suggesting "Bakkah" is the same as "Makkah".

And [mention] when We made the House a place of return for the people and [a place of] security. And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, [saying], "Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying [there] for worship and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer]." 2:125

And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.2:127

Example of foundation of a house (technical word of architects)
(http://outbackbids.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/home-foundation.jpg)


And [mention, O Muhammad], when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, [saying], "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand [in prayer] and those who bow and prostrate. 22:26

And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass -22:27

Then let them end their untidiness and fulfill their vows and perform Tawaf around the ancient House."22:29

There is an entire Surah called Hajj which mentions ancient house on and on.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 13, 2014, 10:41:04 PM
Harmony reel,

Those passages do not mention any physical house. The word used does not mean house but assembly. It is ignorant people who interpreted it in the beginning. It is supposed to say Abraham laid the foundation of the first assembly, and prayed for the land to be a one of affinity.

People who read them are merely beguiled.

Sources I know indicate that Solomon built the first temple.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on December 14, 2014, 01:29:26 AM

There is an entire Surah called Hajj which mentions ancient house on and on.

That may well be, but I hope you realise the seemingly small but important point I am making, which was: "...the Quran verses you are likely alluding to are referring to "bayt" or "al bayt al muharam" which may or may not be the same as "kaabah". Also, Quran never mentions him building anything in "Makkah", only "Bakkah" (not kaabah though) which only has weak evidence suggesting "Bakkah" is the same as "Makkah"."

As I said:

The cuboid called Kaabah that is in Mecca today has no Quranic evidence for it. The evidence is based on secondary sources, mixed with Quran interpolations, assumptions etc. Albeit it is the common view, but common is not equivalent to evidenced.

For my view:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

One of the interesting findings was how the Quranic evidence suggests "al bayt" (the shelter) can be a reference to a safe locality*. Much to my surprise, a good explanation for some of the traditions. What I have noticed is that generally speaking the traditions are a mix of truth and falsehood, but that does not mean everything in them is false. We can use The Quran as our criterion to determine which is which.

*Abraham brought such a place to fruition, hence us being recommended to follow his blueprint, or in Quran parlance "...take from the status (maqam) of Abraham a time/place of blessing (musalla)..." [2:125]






Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: hawk99 on December 14, 2014, 04:25:36 AM
Peace,

So is there such a thing as Hajj?



If there is Hajj where is it to be held?



God bless



   :peace:
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: good logic on December 14, 2014, 05:33:22 AM
Peace Hawk.

A good question!

However , we humans have all sorts of weird and wonderful answers according to our weird and wonderful opinions/beliefs/lack of them...etc?

That is why GOD sends messengers!!!!!!

And we also have the choice to follow GOD and His messenger or "others"?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 14, 2014, 07:47:25 AM
Quote
That is why GOD sends messengers!!!!!!

And if people could just stop perverting information and fabricating what is not true, then those messengers who were would have been enough who already were.

But the truth is quite much easier than people want to make it. You have the old Guidelines of Moses yes? And you may have heard what Jesus had to say about them? And you have understood the parables of gaining affinity with Allah and the realm?

In case you do, then you need no additional messenger.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: hawk99 on December 14, 2014, 08:56:50 AM
And if people could just stop perverting information and fabricating what is not true, then those messengers who were would have been enough who already were.


But people do pervert/fabricate/misunderstand, hence the need for explaining,
like we are doing now!

God bless

   :peace:
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Man of Faith on December 14, 2014, 09:21:35 AM
We want explanation for we are looking for a religion. This is why.

It is not rocket science what we must do, even if one can make it like that, but then it is also easy to lose oneself in confusion and conjecture.

Have faith
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: hawk99 on December 14, 2014, 09:30:33 AM
We want explanation for we are looking for a religion. This is why.


Peace Man of Faith,

Please clarify the above statement.


God bless you

   :peace:
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Samira1234 on December 14, 2014, 11:48:13 AM
Peace Man of Faith,

Please clarify the above statement.


God bless you

   :peace:

His idea of a religion is more of a spiritual one than a physical one, which is having many physical rituals to abide by. And that if we follow the 10 Commandments of Moses and the teachings of Jesus only, we don't really need to abide by anything else, especially in the form of physical rituals. And that it is the Muslims' obsession to turning God into an 'objectified God' and form and trying to please this God like people would to a pagan God, as though it needs mechanical rituals to produce mechanical results to people, which created much of the downfall of the Muslims. And it is the adherence of the Western world to the spiritual values and teachings of Jesus and abandoning much of the other parts of religion which caused the Western world to prosper.

Peace,

Samira
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: hawk99 on December 14, 2014, 12:06:14 PM
His idea of a religion is more of a spiritual one than a physical one, which is having many physical rituals to abide by. And that if we follow the 10 Commandments of Moses and the teachings of Jesus only, we don't really need to abide by anything else, especially in the form of physical rituals. And that it is the Muslims' obsession to turning God into an 'objectified God' and form and trying to please this God like people would to a pagan God, as though it needs mechanical rituals to produce mechanical results to people, which created much of the downfall of the Muslims. And it is the adherence of the Western world to the spiritual values and teachings of Jesus and abandoning much of the other parts of religion which caused the Western world to prosper.


Peace Samira,

So in your version of Islam there is no ablution (ritual)?

No Ramadan (ritual)?

No Salat (ritual)?

No hajj (ritual)?

God Bless you

   :peace:
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Samira1234 on December 14, 2014, 12:23:27 PM
@hawk99

According to Man of Faith, we need to abide by the 10 commandments of Moses and the teachings of Jesus, such as in the New Testament. He says there is no ablution, Salah, and Hajj. Not sure about Ramadan though. He has a wholly different way of interpreting the Quranic scripture though from others, which could be seen as radically different. Anyway, his point is, Muhammad didn't really come with a "new" message to people, but rather repeat the same message as did the previous Prophets like Moses and Jesus. It is people who could not interpret the Quran properly, and ended up adding paganistic rituals. And the Kaaba is one paganistic structure, the Cube of Saturn apparently.

You still need to verify them yourself. Particularly the Salah part. Man of Faith says God is more looking at a person's spirit, how much they assimilate themselves with their inner divine, and how much they reduce their ego self, rather than outward rituals to "bride" God, which God has no real use for. Anyway, that is Man of Faith's interpretation.

Peace,

Samira
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: reel on December 14, 2014, 02:02:22 PM
Quote
That may well be, but I hope you realise the seemingly small but important point I am making, which was: "...the Quran verses you are likely alluding to are referring to "bayt" or "al bayt al muharam" which may or may not be the same as "kaabah". Also, Quran never mentions him building anything in "Makkah", only "Bakkah" (not kaabah though) which only has weak evidence suggesting "Bakkah" is the same as "Makkah"."
Quote
The cuboid called Kaabah that is in Mecca today has no Quranic evidence for it. The evidence is based on secondary sources, mixed with Quran interpolations, assumptions etc. Albeit it is the common view, but common is not equivalent to evidenced.

For my view:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html[/quote]

Quote
Those passages do not mention any physical house. The word used does not mean house but assembly. It is ignorant people who interpreted it in the beginning. It is supposed to say Abraham laid the foundation of the first assembly, and prayed for the land to be a one of affinity.

I saw the word bayt in the verse. I will have to do additional research to come to a proper conclusion.  This is all I have right now.

(http://islamawakened.com/quran/roots/files/screen-shot-2013-09-02-at-3.10.37-am.jpg)

I also have to read the entire Hajj Surah.  To my knowledge, Bakkah is Makkah. Scholars are the ones who for some reason think Kabbah is Bakkah. Quran rejects it and confirms Bakkah to be a city/town/location but not a house.

The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.3:96
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on October 31, 2019, 03:31:04 AM
In addition to my previous post: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607054.msg359847#msg359847

Some may find this work (https://www.academia.edu/24737662/The_Goddesses_of_Pre-Islamic_Arabia_Al-Lāt_Al-_Uzzā_Manāt_) useful. There was some interesting bits, e.g.

Quote:
The Arabs who inhabited the Peninsula used to offer their hair as a sacrifice to Manāt. Interestingly, having made a pilgrimage to Al-Kaba in Mecca, the goddess’ followers believed that the hajj ritual could be deemed complete only after they also visited the goddess’ sanctuary in Kudayd. Manāt’s name, just like that of Al-Lāt and Al-‘Uzzā, was invoked during the oath taking ceremonies. The three goddesses were also worshipped in the  Kuraysh’s Mecca. According to many scholars, in the pre-Muslim era the famous Al-Kaba served as the all-Arab cult centre of Al-Lāt, Al-‘Uzzā and Manāt, all of whom were later recognized as daughters of the supreme god: Hubal and then Allāh, whom the  Arabs were to equate with Hubal.


###
Coincidentally there are 3 pillars inside the cuboid called Kaabah (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KLtapKRTg_k/maxresdefault.jpg). I don't know if this is related.
Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: quincy on October 31, 2019, 11:48:49 PM
What is more interesting is that small altar. Whats its function?

5:90    O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are made foul by the work of the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.

Another thing is that i expected the cuboid to have 4 corners but there are 6 as if it was made purposely. Then we have those jars hanging - i think there is much more symbolism then we might think. And it can only have pagan origins.

Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on October 30, 2020, 09:43:55 AM
In addition to my previous posts: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607054.msg427188#msg427188

From:
https://www.almuslih.org/Library/Peterson,%20S%20-%20The%20Cult%20of%20Dushara.pdf

Quote:

This is also done in the city of Petra (this is the capital of Arabia, which is called
Edom in the scriptures), in the temple of the idol there. They sing hymns to the
virgin in Arabia, calling her in Arabic "Chaabu," which means Core or "virgin,"
and the one born from her "Dusares,"
which means "only begotten of the Lord."
The rite is also performed in the city of Elusa on that night as in Petra and

In this passage Epiphanius elucidates the rituals of the Nabataeans with the intent of
showing that the Nabataeans understood the concept of a virgin birth, like the
Christians.273 In his explanation, he names the main deity of the Nabataeans as Dushara,
but is incorrect in his explanation of Dushara's origins. According to Epiphanius,
Dushara is worshipped as the son of a virgin, which raises questions as to the
role of Ruda, if female, or Allat in relation to the deity? In fact, it appears that
Epiphanius confused the Arabic word ka 'ba, which means "stone, cube, betyl," with
words such as ka'iba or ku 'ba, which mean "young females" or "female breasts."
Because of this confusion, Epiphanius concluded that Dushara was born from a virgin,
misinterpreting Dushara's actual worship in the form of a stone
. Aside from the
etymylogical confusion, Epiphanius does indicate a festival of the Nabataeans that
occurred on the sixth of January, around the winter solstice.


Title: Re: Kaaba Mecca and Jerusalem
Post by: Wakas on May 27, 2021, 03:47:03 AM
In addition, 7 circuits seem to be a common feature in Jewish practices:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hakkafot