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Community Needs => Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) => Topic started by: Wakas on December 25, 2013, 02:22:17 PM

Title: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on December 25, 2013, 02:22:17 PM
peace all,

It is a common occurrence to find forum members advocating 5 salat daily from Quran. Not just this forum.

However, from my 10+ years experience on this forum, it has been my experience that every single person that does this simply repeats the same erroneous arguments that have been discussed before in past threads. OR at the very least they misrepresent the information in Quran, i.e. so it looks like there may be 5, but they never highlight their assumptions or weaknesses, inconsistencies etc.
Interestingly, I do not recall ever reading one person who was open and honest about that. For example, with myself, with my own view being a minimum of 2 salat daily for the mumineen (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm), I openly admit that my view may have some minor issues but what I know for certain is that it has much less problems/assumptions than 3 or 5 daily view for example. Unfortunately, this type of honesty is rare.

So, I would like to put a challenge to those people - quite simply, if you have studied Quran for at least several years and think Quran states 5 salat daily and are willing to defend such a position in debate, then list your name here.

Unfortunately, I am not really interested in debating an individual, thus I would much prefer a large group of 5-salat-daily advocates. The larger the better.
Thus, if you know anyone on any other forum/website or facebook group etc who staunchly believes in 5 salat daily, or they frequently make posts about it, please invite them to this thread.

If we get a decent number of people, we can have a debate. Perhaps, if God wills, it will be beneficial.


Important note: whilst my view is that Quran does not state 5 salat daily, that does not mean I consider it wrong for someone to uphold 5. It does not matter to me what a fellow brother/sister does when it comes to their personal relationship with God. My only issue arises when they make claims such as "Quran states 5" then proceed to misrepresent information and/or make erroneous arguments as per Quran.

My preference has always been to have accurate information first, THEN, allow readers to weigh and consider, and make up their own minds.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on December 25, 2013, 02:48:49 PM
Obviously me. I was going to make "strong" start - but have held back.

1. I am Sunni - and hold that position to be correct and advocate that view.

2. I hold that 5 days prayers times are in fact mentioned in the Quran.

3. I also hold that the "Quran only" position of 2-3 prayers is incorrect.




Can we try to stick to the topic and try not getting personal. That would be welcome!
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: fye on December 25, 2013, 03:19:44 PM
yo quran only guy here! which one of youse guys posted in our forum??? lolz

it's in accord with the sun...wait i just thought of something do you live a solar dark spot with like no day time during these monthes? is this a riddle?

but the sunni sect guy is right it's more than 2 and 3. the mid day prayers and the setting. but to be proper i would like to ask which prayers are you making regularly? i don't wish to change your opinion just to info you on a few surahs. check the quran only facebook group later when post get hot. you'll find the conversation your looking for inshallah.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on December 26, 2013, 12:27:46 AM
Peace Wakas.

In my early days of study, I held the view of 2/3  salat daily. However as I progressed through my studies, I have now changed to the view that it is 5 salat daily. Indeed my study of Qoran confirms that for me.

You also say you are not interested to debate individuals, my aim is not to debate anyone, full stop.

If you noticed throughout my time in this forum ,I rarely enter into " QUOTE FROM ANYONE", I SIMPLY STATE MY UNDERSTANDING.

I do not belong to any sect or gathering, hence I can only put my points as an individual. If your rule omits me ,then I will not take part.

GOD bless.
Peace to you.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: huruf on December 26, 2013, 01:30:13 AM
I ask those who have looked deeply into this question in the Qur'an:

What is the possibility that the people, the person might have a choice, or that the number of salaats might be conditionned by circumstances. That is, that several of the possibilities might be correct: that 5 is correct, that three are correct, that for are correct, two, etc.?

Salaam
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: GODsubmitter on December 26, 2013, 12:51:22 PM
This is excellent and important thread.
I hope we shall finally have real tangible solid proof to know how many times a day the Salat is prescribed in the Qur'an as a physical ritual with physical movements and utterances.

Thank you all for contributing to truth.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on December 31, 2013, 01:22:26 AM
Quote
For example, with myself, with my own view being a minimum of 2 salat daily for the mumineen,


(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.238p.gif)

You people remain vigilant regards the plural number of As-sa'laat: Time Bound Formal Protocol of Servitude and allegiance; and be vigilant for the As-sa'laat which is relatively central to other four Formal Timings. [Ref 2:238]

Plural in Arabic is not for two; but three and above.

It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/3.%20Time%20bound.htm)
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Timur on December 31, 2013, 06:35:43 AM
Peace brother Mazhar.

Plural in Arabic is not for two; but three and above.

Sure. But how do you come to the conclusion that the salawat has to take place within one day? Why not one week, one month, one year, a lifetime? I cannot see such a restriction in the quoted verse. In my view it is very logical to say, hold to the salawat, meaning hold to the salawat for your whole life.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on December 31, 2013, 06:51:33 AM
Peace brother Mazhar.

Sure. But how do you come to the conclusion that the salawat has to take place within one day? Why not one week, one month, one year, a lifetime? I cannot see such a restriction in the quoted verse. In my view it is very logical to say, hold to the salawat, meaning hold to the salawat for your whole life.

Salamun alaika;

It is a time bound protocol. It is prescribed for five points in time of a day; kindly open the link and see the mention of timings for five in a day.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Earthdom on December 31, 2013, 07:09:26 AM
In this thread, people play competition in assumption games

Peace
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on December 31, 2013, 07:59:07 AM
peace Mazhar,
you and I have already discussed a little about the flaws in your article.

But in any case, if you wish to accept this thread challenge please confirm here.



Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on December 31, 2013, 10:12:17 AM
peace Mazhar,
you and I have already discussed a little about the flaws in your article.

But in any case, if you wish to accept this thread challenge please confirm here.

Conirmed.

Flaws? Please find one in that article about five timings; for convenience a graph is even given therein.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Earthdom on January 01, 2014, 11:05:39 AM
I will join the chalennge if this about "By using Quran Only, Is there any verses in the Quran which said if salat is physical raki'-sujud ritual?"

Peace
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: TheRoamingGypsy on January 06, 2014, 10:51:09 AM
I believe that since salat has been revealed before the Quranic Revelation, one has to look to the previous people/ Scriptures whom Salat has been revealed to, in order to get more understanding of what Salat really is, and the numbers.

The focus groups would be (All of which are mentioned/alluded to in the Quran are:
1) Mandaeans (Sabaens) (5 prayers lessened to 3 Prayers by John the Baptist) (Sabaeen in Quran 22:17)
2) Zoroastrians (5 prayers) (Majus in Quran 22:17)
3) Samaritans (3 times, more on holidays) (Early schism of children of Israel)
4) Early Jewish tribes/Torah/Tanakh (some 3, some 5, some combine 5 into 3 times)
5) New Testament (3 times, 3rd, 6th, 9th hours)


The two hardest group to find out is Mandaeans and samaritans, since their numbers are few, and there is not a lot of available literature out there.
1) This free online book is about Mandaeans
http://mandaeannetwork.com/Mandaean/en_The_Mandaeans_of_Iraq_and_Iran_sabians_mandaeannetwork.html?i1

Also as an intro to Mandaeans in english:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ean-WKnw_nU


2) Zoroastrianism
https://archive.org/details/ourownreligionin00millrich

3) Samaritans outreach website
http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com/

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 06, 2014, 12:35:42 PM
There are already sufficient people here . . . it is unlikely that more will join.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 06, 2014, 12:40:17 PM
Salamun alaika;

It is a time bound protocol. It is prescribed for five points in time of a day; kindly open the link and see the mention of timings for five in a day.

Quote
Salamun alaika;

It is more correct to say As-Salamu. The Arabic definite article is required. Otherwise the "Alaika" would become an adjectival clause for the "Salamun" and what you are after is a complete meaningful sentence!

Sorry - little gripe!
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Scribbler on January 06, 2014, 01:01:43 PM
It is more correct to say As-Salamu. The Arabic definite article is required. Otherwise the "Alaika" would become an adjectival clause for the "Salamun" and what you are after is a complete meaningful sentence!

Sorry - little gripe!


Peace be with you.


Sorry to interupt, but if 'As-Salamu' was the more correct form of the Islamic greeting, then surely God would have used 'As-Salamu' in the Quran. But in the Quran we can see that it is always 'Salamun'.



Regards.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 06, 2014, 01:06:43 PM

Peace be with you.


Sorry to interupt, but if 'As-Salamu' was the more correct form of the Islamic greeting, then surely God would have used 'As-Salamu' in the Quran. But in the Quran we can see that it is always 'Salamun'.



Regards.

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

19:33

- -

You need to know something about the language . . .
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Bender on January 06, 2014, 01:09:06 PM

Peace be with you.


Sorry to interupt, but if 'As-Salamu' was the more correct form of the Islamic greeting, then surely God would have used 'As-Salamu' in the Quran. But in the Quran we can see that it is always 'Salamun'.



Regards.

Salaam sis,

 :yes

19:47  قَالَ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكَ ۖ سَأَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكَ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ كَانَ بِي حَفِيًّا

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 06, 2014, 01:47:29 PM
Salaam sis,

 :yes

19:47  قَالَ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكَ ۖ سَأَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكَ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ كَانَ بِي حَفِيًّا

Salaam,
Bender

Like most - bender doesn't know any Arabic either . . . but is happy enough to . . .

- -

Quote
19:47  قَالَ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكَ ۖ سَأَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكَ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ كَانَ بِي حَفِيًّا

The following greeting is within a sentence - here its grammar position and function is different.

- -

Bender seems not to be very clever either. Else he would have noticed:

Quote
But in the Quran we can see that it is always 'Salamun'.

So the posting of his verse . . . was a pointless exercise.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 07, 2014, 12:05:14 AM
It is more correct to say As-Salamu. The Arabic definite article is required. Otherwise the "Alaika" would become an adjectival clause for the "Salamun" and what you are after is a complete meaningful sentence!

Sorry - little gripe!

"Alaika" is a Prepositional Phrase. It relates to the predicate. Salamun is a Verbal Noun. The difference between a Verb and Verbal Noun is that the verb has time reference while verbal noun has time reference only to the point in time of context. The use of definite verbal noun by Easa alahissalam is for reason of associating and particularizing it with points in time.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 07, 2014, 11:09:37 AM
"Alaika" is a Prepositional Phrase. It relates to the predicate. Salamun is a Verbal Noun. The difference between a Verb and Verbal Noun is that the verb has time reference while verbal noun has time reference only to the point in time of context. The use of definite verbal noun by Easa alahissalam is for reason of associating and particularizing it with points in time.

Pointing out that Salamun is a verbal noun is not very helpful and neither does it answer the objective put to you.

Verbal noun - is an English concept and does not quite correspond to Arabic.

Salam - is Masdar - that is Verbs originate from it [According to Basri school of Grammar and which came to dominate this]. Verbal noun? Mostly in English - refer to Nouns that derive from a verb.

- -

The question is one of making complete Arabic sentence. An indefinite noun and a prepositional phrase do not make a good Arabic sentences. That is why you need the 'Salam' to be definite- 'al-Salam'.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: GODsubmitter on January 07, 2014, 06:59:23 PM
Pointing out that Salamun is a verbal noun is not very helpful and neither does it answer the objective put to you.

Verbal noun - is an English concept and does not quite correspond to Arabic.

Salam - is Masdar - that is Verbs originate from it [According to Basri school of Grammar and which came to dominate this]. Verbal noun? Mostly in English - refer to Nouns that derive from a verb.

- -

The question is one of making complete Arabic sentence. An indefinite noun and a prepositional phrase do not make a good Arabic sentences. That is why you need the 'Salam' to be definite- 'al-Salam'.

 :offtopic:
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 07, 2014, 08:08:17 PM
:offtopic:

Do you see anything else happening here? Having read his posts . . . I do not think Wakas is really up for a debate. In the mean time - might as well shoot the breeze.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 07, 2014, 11:58:51 PM
Quote
The question is one of making complete Arabic sentence. An indefinite noun and a prepositional phrase do not make a good Arabic sentences. That is why you need the 'Salam' to be definite- 'al-Salam'.

Grand Qur'aan is the source to verify correctness of use of language Arabic.

وَإِذَا جَاءَكَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا فَقُلْ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ   Refer 6:54

سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence; prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

قَالَ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكَ [Refer 19:47]

The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

A read about ellipses/elisions also might enlighten.
Elipsis [plural ellipses]: omission of implied word: the omission of one or more words from a sentence, especially when what is omitted can be understood from the context.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Earthdom on January 08, 2014, 01:59:38 AM
Salaam

This is about pronoun/dhamir.

3alaykum/عَلَيْكُمْ and 3alayka/عَلَيْكَ, both  of this are true.

-kum/كُمْ is pronoun of antum, the plural form of "you".
-ka/كَ is pronoun of anta, the singular form of "you".

Also there is no called "Al Salam" , the word س is syamsiyah alphabet, and all syamsiyah words don't use definite alif-lam, but alif with following huruf.

Example : اسّلَمْ, the definite used in this word is Alif and sa' not Alif-lam.



Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 08, 2014, 02:55:13 AM
Do you see anything else happening here? Having read his posts . . . I do not think Wakas is really up for a debate. In the mean time - might as well shoot the breeze.

Careful you don't shoot yourself in the foot, in the meantime.


This challenge has been posted on multiple Quran-islam facebook groups also, but so far, only 3 takers (I'm not even sure good logic confirmed). I was hoping for more. I will give it a little longer, if not, 3 will have to do.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Timur on January 08, 2014, 05:24:20 AM
سلم عليك

Also there is no called "Al Salam" , the word س is syamsiyah alphabet, and all syamsiyah words don't use definite alif-lam, but alif with following huruf.

Huh? Alif-lam is always used, but the lam is not pronounced when the first letter of the word is a "sun letter". Hence السلم is a correct arabic word (note: salam is written without alif in the reading/"quran").
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 08, 2014, 08:48:17 AM
Careful you don't shoot yourself in the foot, in the meantime.


This challenge has been posted on multiple Quran-islam facebook groups also, but so far, only 3 takers (I'm not even sure good logic confirmed). I was hoping for more. I will give it a little longer, if not, 3 will have to do.

Nothing like a  Jab Jibe to get a reaction!

There aint going to be many more . . . so either get on with it - or quit it, petal.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 08, 2014, 08:53:06 AM
Grand Qur'aan is the source to verify correctness of use of language Arabic.

وَإِذَا جَاءَكَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا فَقُلْ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ   Refer 6:54

سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence; prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

قَالَ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكَ [Refer 19:47]

The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

A read about ellipses/elisions also might enlighten.
Elipsis [plural ellipses]: omission of implied word: the omission of one or more words from a sentence, especially when what is omitted can be understood from the context.

Quote
prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

And herein lies your answer . . . and why السلام عليكم is correct.

In your version Alikum relates NOT to an implied predicate but to Salamun the noun . . . hence it is not a complete sentence.

- - -

Quote
سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence

No it isn't.

- - -

Quote
The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

This makes no sense at all . . . why would subject type dictate difference of grammar? The verse you give . . . is not a complete sentence.

- - -

The complete sentence is

السلام عليكم
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 08, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
Grand Qur'aan is the source to verify correctness of use of language Arabic.

وَإِذَا جَاءَكَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا فَقُلْ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ   Refer 6:54

سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence; prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

قَالَ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكَ [Refer 19:47]

The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

A read about ellipses/elisions also might enlighten.
Elipsis [plural ellipses]: omission of implied word: the omission of one or more words from a sentence, especially when what is omitted can be understood from the context.

Quote
A read about ellipses/elisions also might enlighten.
Elipsis [plural ellipses]: omission of implied word: the omission of one or more words from a sentence, especially when what is omitted can be understood from the context.

I think you are mentioning this just for effect - and do not know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 08, 2014, 08:55:39 AM
Salaam

This is about pronoun/dhamir.

3alaykum/عَلَيْكُمْ and 3alayka/عَلَيْكَ, both  of this are true.

-kum/كُمْ is pronoun of antum, the plural form of "you".
-ka/كَ is pronoun of anta, the singular form of "you".

Also there is no called "Al Salam" , the word س is syamsiyah alphabet, and all syamsiyah words don't use definite alif-lam, but alif with following huruf.

Example : اسّلَمْ, the definite used in this word is Alif and sa' not Alif-lam.

Dearie, rest easy . . . I don't think even you would understand what you wrote.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 08, 2014, 09:39:32 AM
True, lemmings wish not to listen.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: The_Chimp on January 08, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
True, lemmings wish not to listen.

صاحب - جب آپ غلطی کریں اور کوئی اصلاح کر دے تو شکریا ادا کرنا مھذب لوگوں کا کام ہے۔ اب جواب دینے کے تو آپ قابل نیہں تو پھر ٹر، ٹر کیوں کرتے ہیں؟

اگر ولایتی میں سمجھ نہیں آئی تو میں اردو میں دورا دیتا ہوں۔

[/size]
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 08, 2014, 11:34:35 PM
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.63a.gif)

[Timur; please see alif--daggar alif; without alif, it is a different word.]
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Timur on January 09, 2014, 10:40:25 AM
Peace Mazhar,

thank you, I know about the dagger-alif. But those dagger-alifs do not occur in early scriptures. Hence the correct spelling of salam is simply سلم without alif. The dagger Alif is speculation about the correct pronounciation, in any case it is not part of the original word. 
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Earthdom on January 09, 2014, 10:49:09 AM
سلم عليك

Huh? Alif-lam is always used, but the lam is not pronounced when the first letter of the word is a "sun letter". Hence السلم is a correct arabic word (note: salam is written without alif in the reading/"quran").

So that's why there is no called "Al salam", because it's little bit strange if we pronounce it in Arabic language.
People mostly said "Assalamu alayka" not "Al salamu alayka"

Peace
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: GODsubmitter on January 09, 2014, 11:28:37 AM
Shall we get some more insights about the title of this thread "A challenge to those who claim Qur'an states 5 salat daily" please?

Thanx
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Timur on January 09, 2014, 01:14:38 PM
Peace Earthdom.

So that's why there is no called "Al salam", because it's little bit strange if we pronounce it in Arabic language.
People mostly said "Assalamu alayka" not "Al salamu alayka"

That is correct. Spelling is Al-Salam, pronounciation As-Salam.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 09, 2014, 11:47:06 PM
Peace Mazhar,

thank you, I know about the dagger-alif. But those dagger-alifs do not occur in early scriptures. Hence the correct spelling of salam is simply سلم without alif. The dagger Alif is speculation about the correct pronounciation, in any case it is not part of the original word.

Salamun alaika;

(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.%20Kitab%20Kaaf%20Ta%20Ba/59.gif) (1)13:38(2)15:04=2

(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.%20Kitab%20Kaaf%20Ta%20Ba/6.gif) (1)2:89(2)5:15(3)8:68(4)23:62(5)27:29(6)41:03(7)46:12(8)68:37(9)83:09(10)83:20=10                 
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Timur on January 10, 2014, 03:09:50 AM
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.%20Kitab%20Kaaf%20Ta%20Ba/59.gif) (1)13:38(2)15:04=2

(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.%20Kitab%20Kaaf%20Ta%20Ba/6.gif) (1)2:89(2)5:15(3)8:68(4)23:62(5)27:29(6)41:03(7)46:12(8)68:37(9)83:09(10)83:20=10               

Salamun alayka,

although we were talking about salam...

kitab is actually written without any alif in all occurences according to early manuscripts. Please check here:

13:38 (only examples)
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=13
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=382 (2nd pge)
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=226
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=56

-15:04 (only examples)
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/4?handschrift=13
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/4?handschrift=382
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/4?handschrift=32
- http://www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index?sure=15&vers=4&handschrift=56&anzeigen=Anzeigen

I think this will do ;)

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Earthdom on January 10, 2014, 07:40:29 PM
There is no gains for dispute about existence of alif,because the languages will get changes/updates one century to another.

Please check Al Mushaf Al Imam in : https://archive.org/details/Al-mushaf-Al-Imam
This Mushaf was collected by Khalifah Ustman and notice the alif-lam is exist in the word Kitab.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 11, 2014, 08:06:11 AM
peace all,

Flaws? Please find one in that article about five timings; for convenience a graph is even given therein.

For reference:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182


####

Along with the above, this thread, again, perfectly demonstrates the problems:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg1560#msg1560

I am confident anyone who supports 5 salat daily will inevitably run into these problems.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 11, 2014, 10:57:34 AM
peace all,

For reference:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182


Response is still awaited on that thread.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on January 11, 2014, 03:50:06 PM
Peace Wakas, Mazhar, all.

I take a different view from those you conversed with.

With all due respect, I disagree with Wakas also. My view of 5 salat daily has the following explanation:

We learn that our salat were confirmed in Quran. The elements that are dealt with in Quran are limited to the tone we use for prayer (17:110), the basic steps of ablution and dry ablution (5:6), shortening the prayers and praying at war (4:101-102), praying under unusual circumstances (2:239), the times or periods of our five daily salat (24:58, 17:78, 2:238, 11:114), how we must observe them regularly and within their designated time frames (70:34, 4:103),. Any details concerning our salat that are not mentioned in Quran have been guarded and preserved and this is logically why they didn't get to be repeated in Quran.

Muhammad, the believers from among his community and their descendants served as witnesses to pass down and guard our rites including our salat. However, history repeated itself. Few hundred years after Muhammad's departure, Muslims started to inject their idol worshiping beliefs into the salat and they have been explicitly violating 72:18 and 7:29 since then, dedicating their salat to their idols besides God. Following the unchangeable divine system of purifying and preserving our rites, God has sent another messenger, after a period of time, who purified and reconfirmed our salat to be devoted absolutely to God alone (5:19, 33:7, 3:81).

While  God's message to humanity is inviting the world to abandon idolatry, worship God alone, and follow the preserved and authenticated word of God in Quran, Satan is at work to nullify this . We have been hearing his whispers and witnessing his desperate attempts of spreading doubts about the manner in which we observe our salat. He has been also disputing the number, the perids, the times, and the order of our salat.
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Instead of feeling appreciative, content, and blessed we received and witnessed a messenger who purified and confirmed Quran, and put us back on the monotheistic path, some have been distracted by our ardent enemy. Despite the straightforward verses that spell out God's system of inheriting and preserving our rites, some have been caught up in the Satanic illusion that God would send a messenger to mislead the believers and pass down some wrong teachings in regard of salat- a precedent that DOES NOT exist in Quran. NO where in Quran we find a single example of a messenger who misguided the people or gave them wrong religious practices when their redemption relies on such practices. To the contrary, God assures the believers that His messengers are sent as a mercy to lead them out of darkness, assure their hearts, and teach them the rites to purify and redeem their souls (2:150-151, 14:4-5, 2:129, 3:164, 62:2, 9:103).

Believing in Quran mandates the belief in the words stated by God to teach us the above system of delivery, practice, inheritance, preservation, and confirmation of our rites through His messengers, His scriptures, and His witnesses. This system is a part of the complete, and perfect details of Quran. Ignoring this system, chosen and clarified by God, and hanging on personal wishes to argue about them after receiving God's guidance reflects our disbelief in the Quran, the lack of trust in its divinity, or the lack of trust in God and His systems.

I believe GOD sends messengers to confirm/clarify .

I hope this clarifies my view of 5 daily salat.

Peace to all

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 12, 2014, 04:31:51 AM
peace good logic,

I take a different view from those you conversed with.

The above is your claim but both Mazhar and Joseph use the same verses as you to claim 5 daily salat:

Quote from: good logic
... the times or periods of our five daily salat (24:58, 17:78, 2:238, 11:114)...

In this thread I am only interested in the alleged 5 daily salat timings as per Quran, nothing else.
 
In this respect, it seems your view is either identical or differs only slightly. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate you highlighting exactly where you differ when it comes to the timings.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Scribbler on January 12, 2014, 05:22:07 AM
peace good logic,

The above is your claim but both Mazhar and Joseph use the same verses as you to claim 5 daily salat:

In this thread I am only interested in the alleged 5 daily salat timings as per Quran, nothing else.
 
In this respect, it seems your view is either identical or differs only slightly. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate you highlighting exactly where you differ when it comes to the timings.

Dear Wakas,


Peace be with you.


Can you kindly share where exactly is your objection against brother Mazhar and Joseph's understanding of the five timings?


Regards.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 12, 2014, 05:33:16 AM
peace,

Can you kindly share where exactly is your objection against brother Mazhar and Joseph's understanding of the five timings?

Yes, see a few posts back in this thread, reply #42.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg345794#msg345794
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Scribbler on January 12, 2014, 06:54:55 AM
peace,

Yes, see a few posts back in this thread, reply #42.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg345794#msg345794

Dear brother Wakas,


May peace be with you.


I have read the lengthy discussion between you and Joseph. In my humble view, I can't seem to reject brother Joseph's understanding of the timings, and neither can I outright reject your arguments, and honestly speaking, anyone of you could be right. I have noted that brother Joseph justifies the five timings with an understanding which is 'indirect', and you seem to be looking for explicit mention of the five timings. I think it is best if we can establish the salat five times a day as opposed to two times, since the more you do it, the better it will be for one's soul, no? But depending on our ability and current circumstances, I would conclude that we should do it at least two times a day, and a maximum of five times a day.



Regards.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on January 12, 2014, 07:02:40 AM
Peace Wakas;

FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME :
I believe this is where God gave us the times for the Salat  in the Quran :

The Dawn salat (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
The Noon salat (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
The Afternoon salat ( or middle ) (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
The sunset salt (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
The Night salat (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Note: These are time periods ( not names  as some wrongly assume!!)of salat.
 
Peace to you
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Scribbler on January 12, 2014, 07:27:51 AM
Peace Wakas;

FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME :
I believe this is where God gave us the times for the Salat  in the Quran :

The Dawn salat (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
The Noon salat (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
The Afternoon salat ( or middle ) (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
The sunset salt (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
The Night salat (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Note: These are time periods ( not names  as some wrongly assume!!)of salat.
 
Peace to you

Salam Alaykum, brother.


Thanks for the post. After pondering for a while, I have start to think that the five timings are indeed mentioned in the Quran, but without specific names as many assume it should be, for example salat-ul-fajr and salat-ul-isha. If one looks for names, then there is no way he/she could ever come up to the conclusion of it being five times a day.


Regards.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 12, 2014, 07:56:19 AM
peace Scribbler,

In my humble view, I can't seem to reject brother Joseph's understanding of the timings, and neither can I outright reject your arguments, and honestly speaking, anyone of you could be right. I have noted that brother Joseph justifies the five timings with an understanding which is 'indirect', and you seem to be looking for explicit mention of the five timings. I think it is best if we can establish the salat five times a day as opposed to two times, since the more you do it, the better it will be for one's soul, no? But depending on our ability and current circumstances, I would conclude that we should do it at least two times a day, and a maximum of five times a day.

Firstly, it is not just about the explicit mention of the five timings, that is only one aspect.

Whilst I may agree that it is difficult to select one view over another sometimes, in this case it is very easy to determine which option causes the most unanswered questions, issues/problems/inconsistencies/etc. With regard to this, the view of a minimum of 2 salat daily for the mumineen, is by far, the least problematic, in my view. I recommend readers to simply make a list of issues for each option, e.g. 5 salat daily, 3 salat daily, 2 salat daily, no salat daily etc.

See which one is the most sound and go with that. Continue to increase one's knowledge etc.


Re: more salat the better
I do not see the regular/timed salat for the mumineen as a ritual prayer as I briefly discuss in my article (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm). But in any case, in general, in life there must be balance between knowledge or spirituality - and application or good deeds.
So I do not necessarily agree more salat the better, but that does not mean more is wrong. If one is getting the balance right, then that is up to them.


Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 12, 2014, 08:06:20 AM
peace good logic,

I note you did not highlight how your view differs.

As I said, you cite the exact same verses as Mazhar and Joseph do, thus your view will run into the exact same issues as I have already mentioned.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 12, 2014, 08:43:26 AM
peace good logic,

I note you did not highlight how your view differs.

As I said, you cite the exact same verses as Mazhar and Joseph do, thus your view will run into the exact same issues as I have already mentioned.

Peace Wakas,

The response to Reply 2 and 3 is still awaited which were the clarifications about your "objections" on this thread:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182)

Emphasis: Salat is prescribed with reference to time. Salat of each time has no specific name other than Salat. It has only relation with time.
 
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 25, 2014, 02:51:27 AM
Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat:

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time: start point (with Quran references)
Time: end point (with Quran references)



Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: GODsubmitter on January 25, 2014, 07:57:29 AM
Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat:

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time: start point (with Quran references)
Time: end point (with Quran references)



Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

excellent
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on January 25, 2014, 08:25:50 AM
Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat:

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time: start point (with Quran references)
Time: end point (with Quran references)



Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg)

It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/3.%20Time%20bound.htm)
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on January 25, 2014, 10:08:56 AM
Oh dear, the first reply and it's not in the requested format.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on February 09, 2014, 11:59:16 AM
peace all,

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

Since no-one accepted the challenge in the manner requested, I decided to write a detailed article so students of Quran can weigh and consider the information for themselves.

All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran

Click: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on February 10, 2014, 12:26:52 AM
"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

The first step is to determine the word as to which part of speech it relates and to identify the phrases.

صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ  and صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ are possessive phrases.

Phrase: It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic الْمُرَكَّبَاتُ. When two or more words are joined they constitute a Phrase [مركب ناقص] or [مركب تام] a Sentence-جُمْلَةٌ.

In English, possessive words or phrases exist for nouns and most pronouns, as well as some noun phrases. These can play the roles of determiners (also called possessive adjectives when corresponding to a pronoun) or of nouns.

Possessive determiners constitute a sub-class of determiners which modify a noun by attributing possession (or other sense of belonging) to someone or something. They are also known as possessive adjectives.

In Arabic possessive phrase is called:

أَلإضَافَةُ ٱلْحَقِيقِيَّةُ
   [literally: annexation, addition, or attachment] Possessive/Relative Phrase-"the Construct"

Salat is time bound. Time is determined by the movement of the Sun. The above two words are NOT the names, but possessive phrases-single unit where the second noun with definite article is indicative of the point in time. Point in time does not mean duration.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on February 10, 2014, 03:24:38 PM
Br. Mazhar,
salaam/peace.

I know point in time does not necessarily mean duration. You, like myself, use verses to determine time parameters of salat. I am simply trying to ascertain what verses you use and how you use them in a clear manner so we can actually examine your view.


I will try one last time to clarify my request.

From here: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg346685#msg346685
I said:
Quote
For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat:

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time: start point (with Quran references)
Time: end point (with Quran references)

In my article: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
I said:
Quote
A relatively common problem in such articles is that whilst verses are cited to indicate times, the specific times are not clearly explained and defined. This is likely because specifics do not exist. For clarity, it is preferable to have the following basic information made clear IF it is available, for each salat:

name/reference for salat as per Quran, if any (verse references for this)
salat time range: start point and end point (verse references for this)

For sake of argument, let's assume everything you said about grammar in your post above is correct, my request does NOT depend on whether you or I view it as a name or not, all I am requesting are the salat references and times of each. I actually have little problem accepting what you said is correct, because whether it is a name or not is irrelevant, as both options (i.e. name or not name) are covered in my request.

So let me clarify and make it as simple as I possibly can. Pay VERY close attention to this next part.

For each of the 5 salat daily in your view, in sequence, please provide these 3 pieces of information:

1)
the reference for the salat from The Quran, IF it has one (verse references for this)
i.e. whatever you refer to it as, I dont care if you refer to it as "1st salat of the day" or even if it has no reference/term as long as you clearly state so.

2)
salat start point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the start point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.

3)
salat end point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the end point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.



Please note I will not respond if you refer to your diagram, which I personally find unclear, and it is likely no coincidence no one on this forum has ever used it (nor your article) to explain to others when 5 salat daily from Quran are meant to be performed.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 11, 2014, 01:20:30 PM
Peace Wakas.

 In her book Muhammad, A Biography of the Prophet, Harper, 1992, pp. 148 and 163, Armstrong mentioned - without quoting sources - that the Arabs during the time of Muhammad also practiced three daily Salat prayers similar to the Jews, i.e. morning, noon and evening. In Quran 11:114, three Salat prayers are described at both ends of the day, and at night'
Since the " Qibla" change or as you described yourself, after the " Miraaj" they practiced 5 daily salat prayers.

 The Quran  lists all five daily prayer times, from dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset/evening to the night, see 24:58, 17:78, 2:238.


These "Salawat" must be observed at specific times during the day (4:103):
1. The Dawn salat must be observed from dawn until before sunrise.
2. The Noon salat is due when the sun start to decline from its highest point at noon up to mid afternoon.
3. The Afternoon salat can be observed from mid afternoon until prior to sunset.
4. The Sunset prayer becomes due after sunset up to when twilight disappears.
5. The night salat can be observed after the twilight disappears from the sky up to dawn.

These are the windows that will be open for each salat. Once the window closes the salat cannot be made up.

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

Peace to you.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on February 12, 2014, 11:54:57 PM
Salamun alaikum;


1. صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ : Lane says: Basic perception: He clave, [a thing]; cut, or divided, [it] lengthwise: this is the primary signification, whence several others, to be mentioned below, are derived: Time reference:   فَجْرٌ  [Daybreak; dawn;] the light of morning; (Mgh, K;) because it is a cleaving of the darkness from before the light; (Mgh;) i. e., the redness of the sun in the darkness of night; (K;) the فَجْر in the end of the night is like the شَفَق in the beginning thereof: (S, O:) it is twofold: the first is called الفَجْرُ الكَاذِبُ [the false dawn]; that which rises without extending laterally, (المُسْتَطِيلُ, Mgh, Msb,) which appears black, presenting itself like an obstacle (مُعْتَرِضًا) [on the horizon]: 

2, 3, 4: These are mentioned in one compound sentence:

(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif)

The figure of speech is climax; placement of words in ascending order towards the incoming moments of night.

The two timings for obeying the command وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ : are طَرَفَيِ النَّهَارِ:

It a possessive phrase for which reason Noon of first DUAL noun is dropped: the two visual transitions-edges [Solar ephemeris: position] of the bright day tapering towards the incoming night.   

The fourth is: وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ at َزُلَفًا مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ
"the early moments of the night". This sentence/time is defined by referring to the Sun:
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.78.gif)
"the point in time of rubbing and smoothly getting away of the Sun to the boundary of night getting cool and dark".

and

5    صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ : the definite time is الْعِشَاءِ 
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on February 13, 2014, 12:44:18 AM
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif)

I wish someone who knows the scientific delicacies of revolving of day and night reflects on the choice of words and their placements in this compound sentence. The day is ascending and the moments of night are approaching-drawing near to it.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: diamantinehoneybunch on February 13, 2014, 02:13:31 AM
Salat, SJD and RK3 are often mentioned separately.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: rahenijaat1 on February 13, 2014, 07:56:48 AM
 :)
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: TruthBehindIt on February 13, 2014, 08:08:54 AM

Salam and Peace....!

In Al-Quran 3: 7, Allah mentions there are two type of Verses in The Book of Hidayah......"Mutashabihaat" and "Muhkamaat".

....."In it are clear verses, which are the foundation of the Book, and others (that are) allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is a deviation, they will follow that which is allegorical in them (verses), seeking mischief, and seeking (their own) interpretation of it. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in knowledge say: ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And no one receives admonition except those with understanding."   (3: 7)

Some people....deviation in their hearts....seeking mischief.....seek their own INTERPRETATIONS of Mutashabihaat.

Now.....the point is .........what is the meaning of Mutashabihaat......I am not going to put dictionary meaning.
One thing we all know is that,...........Mutashabihaat are such Verses on which we can never become unanimous.....absolutely impossible.
Again.......Mutashabihaat Verses are those on which we are bound to have differences of opinions....for sure.

Unseen are described in similes, metaphors and allegories (Mutashaabihaat) for your understanding. But those who are given to crookedness in their hearts pursue the allegories and try to give them literal meanings, thus creating dissension of thought. None encompasses their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Hand, His Book of Decrees, the exact mode of revelation on the heart of the messengers, the Eternity) but God.

So.....everybody will have his own interpretaion of Mutashabihaat.........So far so good.

But bad aspect starts when some people try to impose their own interpretations of Mutashabihaat on others, and want them to follow it.....they are the ones for whom Allah says....."Then those in whose hearts is a deviation, they will follow that which is allegorical in them (verses), seeking mischief, and seeking (their own) interpretation of it."

This means, clearly.........that Mutashabihaat Verses can never be something we are Commanded to obey......because they can never become Muhkamaat.

Now, in my understanding.......all those Verses of Al Quran on which we differ, are Mutashabihaat...........and everyone of us has his own undertanding........some of those Verses are Verses in which we find the words "Salaat", "Sujood", "Ruku" etc.

All those who claim to follow Al Quran Alone.........some say there is no ritual Salaat.......some say, there are ritual Salaat also....some say five times a day....some say no only three times........some say only two times.
All trying to prove their interpretations putting before us Verses from Al Quran.....and all wish and insist their interpretation is best and must be followed.

The word in Al Quran......Salaat....for example........the Quran Aloners will never unite on one understanding (ritual, or not ritual)...........and as such, can never unite.....is Salaat (ritual, or not ritual) also not a Mutashabihaat....?

Disputing over the word "Salaat (is ritual, or is not ritual)".........will create distance among us and divide us.

Better do what you/we understand best..........the main thing is .........if we are really truthful, honest and sincere.........whatever we understand and follow.........Allah will be pleased.
The Creator who created us top to bottom.......knows what is in our hearts.

And Allah will not be please..........if anyone of us try to impose his own understanding/interpretation of the word "Salaat".

-----"(They say): ?Our Lord, let not our hearts deviate after when You have guided us, and bestow upon us mercy from Yourself. Indeed, You are the Bestower.?   (3: 8 )

If one understands truthfully, honestly and sincerely, there are rituals.......then he must do it.....
......if one understands truthfully, honestly and sincerely, there are no rituals........then don't do it.

If someone falls in physical sujood before Allah, who is there to object this act......if Allah is has no objections.

For ritual Salaat, any methodology is acceptable before Allah........if the ritual is for Allah Alone....and not for any ghairillah.

But...remember......the mankind does not need our rituals (if there is any).........the (oppressed) mankind needs our Attention, Goodness, Kindness, Help, Peace.

And Goodness is something on which no one of us/even mankind, can have different opinions.
And Goodness is fully mentioned in Al Quran.........and all those Verses mentioning Goodness....are MUHKAMAAT.

Goodness.........is an International (Natural) Language.
People of different nations, even if they dont understand each other's languages.............can be Good to one another.

Allah will accept all those truthful and sincere hearts that bows before Allah's Clear Commandments "MUHKAMAAT", which are Foundation of Deen, and if they are not followed, there is no Deen.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on February 13, 2014, 09:30:41 AM
Salamun alaika,

Mutashabihaat: [Active participle-feminine-Form-VI] A little concentration will tell that metaphors are not used in commands and injunctions.

"MUHKAMAAT": [Passive Participle-feminine-Form-IV]. Commands, injunctions, orders use imperative verbs. Salat is the object of imperative verb; hence it is not in the category of Mutashabihaat.

Moreover the conduct of scholars with tilted hearts is not with reference to ayat-Mutashabihaat but it is about the Qur'aan {minho-pronoun is masculine referring the whole Qur'aan]

Grand Qur'aan in the 21st Century (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Quraan%20and%20Physical%20World%20Science/01.%20Grand%20Qur'aan%20in%2021st%20Century/01.%20The%20Grand%20Qur'aan%20in%20the%2021st%20Century..htm)

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan: Format and Organization; two types of unitary passages (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/06.%20Book-6%20Quran%20Described%20by%20Quran/03.%20Ayaat%20Mohkmaat%20and%20Motshabehaat/03.%20Organization%20and%20Format%20two%20types%20of%20Aayat.htm)
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on February 15, 2014, 04:30:38 AM
peace good logic,

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

And I have already replied. You use the same verses and similar argument as I already discuss in the article.

I even asked you to exactly highlight wherein you differ with regard to timings. You highlighted ZERO differences.

Please note, that is not to say there is no differences but if you can't be bothered highlighting them or presenting the information in the requested format, then I will not respond.

The reason I used br. Joseph's article as the primary reference was he actually attempted to clarify each salat and its timing, thus making it easy to examine.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 15, 2014, 05:04:33 AM
Peace Wakas.

I have given you my answers and reasons for 5 salat per day from Qoran.

I have also given you why I came to the conclusion of following the messenger. GOD always clarifies the disputes/disagreements by sending a messenger.

With all due respect, I close by wishing you well with your tasks.

May the Lord guide us to His true path.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: diamantinehoneybunch on February 15, 2014, 10:40:29 AM
Good Logic,

I know you meant salat with 2,4,4,3,4 units in each of 5 salats respectively, right? The salat units can be found NOWHERE in the Qur'an.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 15, 2014, 12:28:48 PM
Peace Yuliana.

I believe "salat" is preserved from Abraham. Including the units.

Qoran corrected only what was corrupted/lost...

[Quran 21:73] We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Salat and the obligatory charity (Zakat)....

In fact, according to the Quran, Islam is called the religion of Abraham, and Muhammad was a follower of Abraham. So were Isaac, Ismail, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Jesus, and other messengers of God.

Abraham was indeed an exemplary vanguard in his submission to God, a monotheist who never worshiped idols. Because he was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16:120-123)

The practices  have been preserved in their basic form since the time of Abraham despite the efforts of corruption and distortion by idol worshipers and disbelievers. Each messenger who came after Abraham purified and followed these practices in accordance .

That is my understanding.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: diamantinehoneybunch on February 15, 2014, 12:46:50 PM
The ritual salats that are practised by Orthodox Jews, Orthodox Christians and Muslims are originated from Talmud.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 15, 2014, 02:58:17 PM
Peace Yuliana.

I quoted Qoran not talmud.

As far as I know "salat" originated from Abraham, Qoran {21:73} {14: 35-40}.

" Rituals" are for those that do not know the true purpose of deen."Salat" It is a connection to the creator.
 A personal relationship with GOD requires honesty, obedience and sincerity.
 A rirual  is meaningless if it does not change the person for the better

If one is not happy with anything they should not do it.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Man of Faith on February 15, 2014, 03:43:42 PM
I take salat absolutely as communication and seeking inspiration from God and it should be intelligible. Remember a part of The Book were salat is prescribed before an important testimony. Or were soldiers perform salat during a battle. It can be performed in any manner such as driving, riding, walking but best performed in a focused manner in calmness.

I sometimes perform salat while driving and I see results almost instantly. Opportunities arise. It is clear why we are recommended or explicitly told to perform the salat phenomenon.

I have abandoned the five prayer timings because I like many others felt no support from The Book on that matter. However, we should be conscious of God throughout the day and perform salat to help us with inspiration and choices. Salat is explicitly spoken out as prayers for guidance whenever you need some help.

Fixed prayer timing periods are however seemingly prescribed as morning and evening and then at night after that (before bedtime). I find little support for fixed prayers during daytime except for calls on your Lord for guidance in your daily life. The Book often repeats about glorification moments at the beginning and the end of the day. It does rarely even mention anything in the day except one that I suppose is misunderstood to meaning to establish regular prayer/salat whenever required throughout the day as in receiving inspiration and active guidance.

Birds have their salat too and that is how they are mindful of God through the way they are programmed for following God's system without any question such as flying in a certain formation or their species' special sound.  And spiders have a distinct pattern on their web. They have autonomous salat. Humans are a bit more free willed and require our input but once commenced is rewarded by God's active guidance and inspiration to make our life choices and directions.

We can say one if not the sole reason for salat is that we may have God's Will be done according to His System and Judgment. We seek to perform all our deeds by connecting to God's superior Judgement.

We do not connect to God in salat to parrot a certain sequence that we trigger some magical buff. And we ought to know what we say during salat meaning the words must be thought through and it should be done in normal voice. Salat in a traditional way I could do on a bottle of booze but perhaps not if I wanted an intelligible communication. It all adds up, does it not?

And with a bottle of booze God's link with superior Judgment is impaired.

Peace
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on February 17, 2014, 03:40:24 AM
peace good logic,

I respect your answer, but ultimately, for readers, it is unlikely to help them.


In fact, according to the Quran, Islam is called the religion of Abraham...

Can you provide the verse reference?
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 17, 2014, 05:54:51 AM
Peace Wakas.

Thank you for your post.

Here are the verses you requested:

[16:120-123], [14:25-30] [ 21:73]...

Muhammad: A Follower of Abraham*

16:123
Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham,* the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
ثُمَّ أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ أَنِ اتَّبِع مِلَّةَ إِبرٰهيمَ حَنيفًا وَما كانَ مِنَ المُشرِكينَ


[Quran 21:73] We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Salat and the obligatory charity (Zakat)....

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on February 17, 2014, 06:47:52 AM
peace GL,

I did not see "Islam is called the religion of Abraham" in those verses. Can you simply quote the verse you are referring to AND highlight the word "islam" in it.

Thanks.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Bender on February 17, 2014, 07:23:43 AM
Peace Yuliana.

As far as I know "salat" originated from Abraham, Qoran {21:73} {14: 35-40}.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salaam good logic,

How did you conclude from {21:73} {14: 35-40} that salaat orginated from Ibrahim?

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 17, 2014, 10:14:08 AM
Peace Bender.

Thank you for your question.
Check these verses out:

14:39
"Praise be to God for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My Lord answers the prayers.
الحَمدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذى وَهَبَ لى عَلَى الكِبَرِ إِسمٰعيلَ وَإِسحٰقَ إِنَّ رَبّى لَسَميعُ الدُّعاءِ

14:40
"My Lord, make me one who consistently observes Salat, and also my children. Our Lord, please answer my prayers.
رَبِّ اجعَلنى مُقيمَ الصَّلوٰةِ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتى رَبَّنا وَتَقَبَّل دُعاءِ

And

21:72
And we granted him Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them both righteous.
وَوَهَبنا لَهُ إِسحٰقَ وَيَعقوبَ نافِلَةً وَكُلًّا جَعَلنا صٰلِحينَ

21:73
We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Salat and the Zakat.* To us, they were devoted worshipers.

وَجَعَلنٰهُم أَئِمَّةً يَهدونَ بِأَمرِنا وَأَوحَينا إِلَيهِم فِعلَ الخَيرٰتِ وَإِقامَ الصَّلوٰةِ وَإيتاءَ الزَّكوٰةِ وَكانوا لَنا عٰبِدينَ


GOD bless you .

Peace.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Bender on February 17, 2014, 10:22:17 AM
Peace Bender.

Thank you for your question.
Check these verses out:

14:39
"Praise be to God for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My Lord answers the prayers.
الحَمدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذى وَهَبَ لى عَلَى الكِبَرِ إِسمٰعيلَ وَإِسحٰقَ إِنَّ رَبّى لَسَميعُ الدُّعاءِ

14:40
"My Lord, make me one who consistently observes Salat, and also my children. Our Lord, please answer my prayers.
رَبِّ اجعَلنى مُقيمَ الصَّلوٰةِ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتى رَبَّنا وَتَقَبَّل دُعاءِ

And

21:72
And we granted him Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them both righteous.
وَوَهَبنا لَهُ إِسحٰقَ وَيَعقوبَ نافِلَةً وَكُلًّا جَعَلنا صٰلِحينَ

21:73
We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Salat and the Zakat.* To us, they were devoted worshipers.

وَجَعَلنٰهُم أَئِمَّةً يَهدونَ بِأَمرِنا وَأَوحَينا إِلَيهِم فِعلَ الخَيرٰتِ وَإِقامَ الصَّلوٰةِ وَإيتاءَ الزَّكوٰةِ وَكانوا لَنا عٰبِدينَ


GOD bless you .

Peace.

Salaam good logic,

Yes I can see that the word sallaat is used in those verses, but I do not understand how you derived that it ORGINATED from Ibrahim.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 17, 2014, 12:40:33 PM
Peace Bender.

[16;123]  ثُمَّ أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ أَنِ اتَّبِع مِلَّةَ إِبرٰهيمَ حَنيفًا وَما كانَ مِنَ المُشرِكينَ


I do not recall seeing "salat" mentioned before Abraham either in the bible or Qoran. Even though GOD mentioned Noah, Adam...

Unless you or others know otherwise.

So I am assuming " salat" originated with Abraham?

Thank you brother.

Peace.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: uma on February 17, 2014, 01:17:25 PM
Salaams all

I wish I had enough time to read all previous comments before I post but unfortunately don't so forgive me if I say something repeated or out of context.

The way I see salaat:

وَاتَّخِذُوا مِنْ مَقَامِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ مُصَلًّى

2:125

Meaning Take your prayer from the Station of Ibraheem.
For me this ayat is enough and that's how I pray, how they do in our Islamic capital Makkah.

This is the only way the whole ummah will pray in unity. The point of Congregation is unity.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: GODsubmitter on February 17, 2014, 01:20:46 PM
Lately I am more inclined to think that Salat is inspiration and connection to the Divinity when we achieve the enlightened state without our thoughts (programing-data playing in our minds from memories) and we align with the Divinity, that's why it is said in the Qur'an that birds know their Salat.

Now, perhaps at one stage, the 5 daily ritual/namaz may be useful to someone in a mode of taming or disciplining his ego and his mundane/pagan nature...

PS
Abraham might have been a historical person, but he is certainly more a symbol (Brahma) (Av-ram=Aba r*m, then Avraham) and "he" didn't originate or invent the alignment with the Divinity, "he" is just a symbol of that total adherence.

Peace

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Bender on February 18, 2014, 04:40:06 AM
Peace Bender.

[16;123]  ثُمَّ أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ أَنِ اتَّبِع مِلَّةَ إِبرٰهيمَ حَنيفًا وَما كانَ مِنَ المُشرِكينَ


I do not recall seeing "salat" mentioned before Abraham either in the bible or Qoran. Even though GOD mentioned Noah, Adam...

Unless you or others know otherwise.

So I am assuming " salat" originated with Abraham?

Thank you brother.

Peace.

Salaam good logic,

I find this very strange reasoning. Is this method of reasoning only for sallaat or also for other things?

Just a couple of things that comes to mind now:

==>     19:58 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
19:59 Then, generations came after THEM who lost the SALLAAT and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

who are THEM in 19:59 does it include also Adam and Nuh, if not why not?

==>   31:17 O my son, hold the contact prayer and advocate righteousness and prohibit vice, and be patient to what befalls you. These are the most honorable traits.
can you prove that Luqmaan and his son where AFTER Ibrahim?

==>   10:87 And We inspired to Moses and his brother: "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your qibla, and hold the contact prayer. And give good news to the believers."
qibla orginated from Musa and Harun?

==>    19:26 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say: 'I have vowed an SAWMAN for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
Sawm orginated from Meryem?

==>  21:73 is not ONLY about Ibrahim, so not sure why you left the others out of competition.

salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Earthdom on February 18, 2014, 06:08:24 AM
Lately I am more inclined to think that Salat is inspiration and connection to the Divinity when we achieve the enlightened state without our thoughts (programing-data playing in our minds from memories) and we align with the Divinity, that's why it is said in the Qur'an that birds know their Salat.

Now I'm also think the same.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 18, 2014, 06:20:57 AM
Peace Bender.

Thank you for your post.

Have you forgotten the verse I gave you? {16:123}

GOD did not ask to follow " milat" Luqman" or " noah" or "Adam"...

He asked to follow " millat" Abraham. Does "millat" include the rites that include "salat"?

GOD bless you brother.

Peace.

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Bender on February 18, 2014, 07:01:42 AM
Peace Bender.

Thank you for your post.

Have you forgotten the verse I gave you? {16:123}

GOD did not ask to follow " milat" Luqman" or " noah" or "Adam"...

He asked to follow " millat" Abraham. Does "millat" include the rites that include "salat"?

GOD bless you brother.

Peace.

Salaam,

Your claim was: "salaat orginated from Ibrahim" so I do not see a link with your reaction above  :hmm

RED: I dunno, you tell me. I don't even know that sallaat has rites.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: good logic on February 18, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
Peace Bender.

Thank you once more.
Let me explain further, Why I think "salat" is part of the rites of "Millat" or " Deen"....of Abraham

2:124
Recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them. (God) said, "I am appointing you an imam for the people." He said, "And also my descendants?" He said, "My covenant does not include the transgressors.
وَإِذِ ابتَلىٰ إِبرٰهـۧمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمٰتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنّى جاعِلُكَ لِلنّاسِ إِمامًا قالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتى قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهدِى الظّٰلِمينَ

2:127
As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
وَإِذ يَرفَعُ إِبرٰهـۧمُ القَواعِدَ مِنَ البَيتِ وَإِسمٰعيلُ رَبَّنا تَقَبَّل مِنّا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ

2:128
"Our Lord, make us Muslims to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of Muslims to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
رَبَّنا وَاجعَلنا مُسلِمَينِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنا أُمَّةً مُسلِمَةً لَكَ وَأَرِنا مَناسِكَنا وَتُب عَلَينا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ التَّوّابُ الرَّحيمُ

2:130
Who would forsake the Millat of Abraham, except one who fools his own soul? We have chosen him in this world, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous.
وَمَن يَرغَبُ عَن مِلَّةِ إِبرٰهـۧمَ إِلّا مَن سَفِهَ نَفسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصطَفَينٰهُ فِى الدُّنيا وَإِنَّهُ فِى الـٔاخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصّٰلِحينَ

2:132
Moreover, Abraham exhorted his children to do the same, and so did Jacob: "O my children, God has pointed out the Deen for you; do not die except as Muslimeen."
وَوَصّىٰ بِها إِبرٰهـۧمُ بَنيهِ وَيَعقوبُ يٰبَنِىَّ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصطَفىٰ لَكُمُ الدّينَ فَلا تَموتُنَّ إِلّا وَأَنتُم مُسلِمونَ

I hope this clarifies for you my understanding of why I think the rites ,including "salat" have originated from Abraham.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Bender on February 19, 2014, 08:50:39 AM
Peace Bender.

Thank you once more.
Let me explain further, Why I think "salat" is part of the rites of "Millat" or " Deen"....of Abraham

2:124
Recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them. (God) said, "I am appointing you an imam for the people." He said, "And also my descendants?" He said, "My covenant does not include the transgressors.
وَإِذِ ابتَلىٰ إِبرٰهـۧمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمٰتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنّى جاعِلُكَ لِلنّاسِ إِمامًا قالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتى قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهدِى الظّٰلِمينَ

2:127
As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
وَإِذ يَرفَعُ إِبرٰهـۧمُ القَواعِدَ مِنَ البَيتِ وَإِسمٰعيلُ رَبَّنا تَقَبَّل مِنّا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ

2:128
"Our Lord, make us Muslims to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of Muslims to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
رَبَّنا وَاجعَلنا مُسلِمَينِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنا أُمَّةً مُسلِمَةً لَكَ وَأَرِنا مَناسِكَنا وَتُب عَلَينا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ التَّوّابُ الرَّحيمُ

2:130
Who would forsake the Millat of Abraham, except one who fools his own soul? We have chosen him in this world, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous.
وَمَن يَرغَبُ عَن مِلَّةِ إِبرٰهـۧمَ إِلّا مَن سَفِهَ نَفسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصطَفَينٰهُ فِى الدُّنيا وَإِنَّهُ فِى الـٔاخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصّٰلِحينَ

2:132
Moreover, Abraham exhorted his children to do the same, and so did Jacob: "O my children, God has pointed out the Deen for you; do not die except as Muslimeen."
وَوَصّىٰ بِها إِبرٰهـۧمُ بَنيهِ وَيَعقوبُ يٰبَنِىَّ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصطَفىٰ لَكُمُ الدّينَ فَلا تَموتُنَّ إِلّا وَأَنتُم مُسلِمونَ

I hope this clarifies for you my understanding of why I think the rites ,including "salat" have originated from Abraham.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salaam,

Thanks for your analysis.
We can discuss this very long, but our methods and understandings are to different that a futher discussion will not be very fruitful I guess. And I think it is also off-topic.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on February 19, 2014, 01:26:52 PM
Salam Wakas,

Lest it is lost by of topic

Salamun alaikum;


1. صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ : Lane says: Basic perception: He clave, [a thing]; cut, or divided, [it] lengthwise: this is the primary signification, whence several others, to be mentioned below, are derived: Time reference:   فَجْرٌ  [Daybreak; dawn;] the light of morning; (Mgh, K;) because it is a cleaving of the darkness from before the light; (Mgh;) i. e., the redness of the sun in the darkness of night; (K;) the فَجْر in the end of the night is like the شَفَق in the beginning thereof: (S, O:) it is twofold: the first is called الفَجْرُ الكَاذِبُ [the false dawn]; that which rises without extending laterally, (المُسْتَطِيلُ, Mgh, Msb,) which appears black, presenting itself like an obstacle (مُعْتَرِضًا) [on the horizon]: 

2, 3, 4: These are mentioned in one compound sentence:

(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif)

The figure of speech is climax; placement of words in ascending order towards the incoming moments of night.

The two timings for obeying the command وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ : are طَرَفَيِ النَّهَارِ:

It a possessive phrase for which reason Noon of first DUAL noun is dropped: the two visual transitions-edges [Solar ephemeris: position] of the bright day tapering towards the incoming night.   

The fourth is: وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ at َزُلَفًا مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ
"the early moments of the night". This sentence/time is defined by referring to the Sun:
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.78.gif)
"the point in time of rubbing and smoothly getting away of the Sun to the boundary of night getting cool and dark".

and

5    صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ : the definite time is الْعِشَاءِ
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on February 19, 2014, 02:56:26 PM
Good idea:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Mazhar on February 22, 2014, 01:00:30 PM
Salam Wakas,

Do you think and translate the phrase as two corners on a straight line:

(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/114.%20Anhaar%20Noon%20Haa%20Ra/2.gif)(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/01.Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20003/34.%20Tarfan%20Toi%20Ra%20Fa/2.gif)   

1.Fajr___________________________________________2 Isha
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Pleiades on June 01, 2014, 12:11:56 PM
Good idea:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Salam everybody, Its been a while since my last post but have been dipping in and out of the forum. I thought I'd share this response from bro Joseph to Wakas's critique. (A request from a sister).

http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: shukri on April 05, 2015, 07:44:39 AM
Salaam ,

I give you simple proofs ... to prove that quran states 5 salat daily ... by using numeric miracle of this two key phrases of words ...

1) Observe the Contact Prayers (أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰة)

This phrase occurs exactly 5 times in quran  ...

11:114 You shall observe the Contact Prayers (1) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.
 17:78 You shall observe the Contact Prayer (2) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed. 

20:14 "I am God; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (3) to remember Me.

29:45 You shall recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and observe the Contact Prayers (4), for the Contact Prayers prohibit evil and vice. But the remembrance of God (through Salat) is the most important objective.* God knows everything you do.

31:17 "O my son, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (5). You shall advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and remain steadfast in the face of adversity. These are the most honorable traits.

2) Turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid

    This phrase also occurs  exactly 5 times in quran ...

2:144 We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid (1). Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it (2). Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. God is never unaware of anything they do.
2:149 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid (3). This is the truth from your Lord. God is never unaware of anything you all do.

2:150 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid (4) ; wherever you might be, you shall turn your faces (during Salat) towards it (5). Thus, the people will have no argument against you, except the transgressors among them. Do not fear them, and fear Me instead. I will then perfect My blessings upon you, that you may be guided.

All the facts given above ... I extract from ...
http://www.universalunity.org/17.html#TheFiveDailyContactPrayers
 
 
And for the determination of middle prayer (salat wustha) ... just apply code 19 for these two verses AQ2:238 & AQ103:1 ...

2:238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to God .

103:1 By the afternoon (asr)

22381031 = 19 x 1177949 -------> proof that middle prayer refer to afternoon prayer (asr) ---------> subsequently total prayer should be five ---------> dawn/noon/afternoon/sunset/night prayer ...

Thanks .
 
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 05, 2015, 09:37:11 PM
Salaam ,

I give you simple proofs ... to prove that quran states 5 salat daily ... by using numeric miracle of this two key phrases of words ...

1) Observe the Contact Prayers (أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰة)

This phrase occurs exactly 5 times in quran  ...

11:114 You shall observe the Contact Prayers (1) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.
 17:78 You shall observe the Contact Prayer (2) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed. 

20:14 "I am God; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (3) to remember Me.

29:45 You shall recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and observe the Contact Prayers (4), for the Contact Prayers prohibit evil and vice. But the remembrance of God (through Salat) is the most important objective.* God knows everything you do.

31:17 "O my son, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (5). You shall advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and remain steadfast in the face of adversity. These are the most honorable traits.

2) Turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid

    This phrase also occurs  exactly 5 times in quran ...

2:144 We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid (1). Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it (2). Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. God is never unaware of anything they do.
2:149 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid (3). This is the truth from your Lord. God is never unaware of anything you all do.

2:150 Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid (4) ; wherever you might be, you shall turn your faces (during Salat) towards it (5). Thus, the people will have no argument against you, except the transgressors among them. Do not fear them, and fear Me instead. I will then perfect My blessings upon you, that you may be guided.

All the facts given above ... I extract from ...
http://www.universalunity.org/17.html#TheFiveDailyContactPrayers
 
 
And for the determination of middle prayer (salat wustha) ... just apply code 19 for these two verses AQ2:238 & AQ103:1 ...

2:238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to God .

103:1 By the afternoon (asr)

22381031 = 19 x 1177949 -------> proof that middle prayer refer to afternoon prayer (asr) ---------> subsequently total prayer should be five ---------> dawn/noon/afternoon/sunset/night prayer ...

Thanks .

Peace -- are you consistent?

1.   5:12 اقمتم establish you (masculine plural) الصلاه al-ṣalata
2.   11:114 واقم and establish (masculine singular) الصلاه al-ṣalata
3.   17:78 اقم establish (masculine singular) الصلاه al-ṣalata
4.   20:14 واقم and establish (masculine singular) الصلاه al-ṣalata
5.   29:45 واقم and establish (masculine singular) الصلاه al-ṣalata
6.   31:17 اقم establish (masculine singular) الصلاه al-ṣalata
7.   33:33 واقمن and establish (feminine plural) الصلاه al-ṣalata

2:144
1.   فول so turn وجهك face your (masculine singular) شطر direction المسجد al-masjid الحرام al-haraam
2.   فولوا so turn ye of وجوهكم faces yours (masculine plural) شطره direction its

2:149
3.   فول so turn وجهك face your (masculine singular) شطر direction المسجد al-masjid الحرام al-haraam

2:150
4.   فول so turn وجهك face your (masculine singular) شطر direction المسجد al-masjid الحرام al-haram
5.    فولوا so turn ye of وجوهكم faces yours (masculine plural) شطره direction its

Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: huruf on April 06, 2015, 12:15:19 AM
This writing of masculine plural is a real trap. Everything that is not specifically feminine is called masculine although we do know without any doubt that there is a plural which is general, that is, cinludes anybody of any sex. Most "masculine plurals" in the Qur'an, as anywhere, are not masculine but global. That grammarians have not come with a proper figure for that is a grammatical misdeed, and given it a proper name is a grammatical misdeed but that does not change the substance of what is spoken or written.

It is fraudulent to make it masculine and exact one hundred scientifical evidences in order to allow texts, in this case the Qur'an to speak of both sexes everytime the "masculine" plural appears.

Also there is the singular masculine, which in fact is not such but inspecified singular when we speak of any person. We may be saying you, but we may be referring to an unspecified you who can be any person.

Salaam
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on April 06, 2015, 09:26:20 AM
In addition to Noon's post, is mankind lost only by the afternoon?

103:1 By the afternoon.,
103:2 The human being is utterly lost.,
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: shukri on April 06, 2015, 06:41:35 PM
In addition to Noon's post, is mankind lost only by the afternoon?

103:1 By the afternoon.,
103:2 The human being is utterly lost.,

Salaam ,

Some interesting points given by this article ... point 4 onwards ...

http://www.universalunity.org/17.html#MiddlePrayer

Thanks .
Title: Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
Post by: Wakas on April 14, 2015, 11:43:30 PM
Those "interesting" points you refer have no consistency, one of the fundamental flaws in code 19 maths. In any case, here are my two favourite threads on code 19:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16958.0
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601308.0

They are very telling in my opinion.