Hi there!
A little while ago when I was ripping the internet of books in pdf format, I stumbled upon a traditionalist heresiography, wherein I recall a passage containing the following words:
''Behind the River (ma wara an-nahr/transoxania) there lives a people who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total. Both their men and their women ride horses and participate in battle, and their men are uncircumsized (..)'
I don't remember which book it was, perhaps someone among you does, and can help me to find it?
Sincerely
Nazzam
Ok peepz, listen to why I find it very interesting. I have a very good hypothesis concerning the quran-alone methodology.
The region of transoxania first came into contact with islam during the first wave of conquests, perhaps even earlier by trade or diplomatic ties during caliph Ali.
Check the map:
(http://oneway2day.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/islamic-early-conquests-map.jpg)
Its very likely the group refered to (assuming they did ever exist, and weren't a product of the heresiographers fantasy, which is a likely possibility), was islamized during the first wave. Later when the heresiographer documented on the existing sects of the time, he refered to them as being awkward, mysterious and far away, betraying the following implications:
- These groups of people have had to be islamized before the dogmatization of traditionalism
- These groups of people must have had to be islamized before the heresiographer refered to them (duh)
- These groups of people should have had been islamized outside of centralist government control of the Ummayad or Abbasid Caliphate
- If proven so, it confirms the already known and widely accepted assumption that traditionalist dogmatization was a political project which was imposed from the central government
- It confirms that after islamization, traditionalist dogmatization took over to censure and oppress all other 'divergent' views of islam.
- It is likely to be related to the fact that the Samanid Dynasty (819-899) which was situated in large parts of Transoxiania, had very good relations with the mutazilite caliph al Ma'mun (relations would deteriorate with the mutazilites after the traditionalist shift in Baghdad because of al Mutawakkil, which led the Samanids to be 'traditionalized' by Ismail Saman who was known for conquering and oppressing fiercely anti-traditionalist Zaydite and Mutazilite Tabarestan).
The first wave of islamic conquests must therefore have had proclaimed only the quranic message as the definition of islam.
If this is the case, similar effects have to be measurable in theory in all the periphery of the islamic world. There is one exceptional factor though... Transoxania was less accessible by government control due to very vast steppes, very low population density and the absence of centralized political power over very large parts of it (this would continue until the 15th century).
Were it not for all those book burnings, fraud, oppression of intellectual creativity and corruption...
Seems the region is still receptive of the sola-scriptura methodology:
http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-1-religious-affiliation/
This data is in line with the centralization-hypothesis, and shows that the influence of this historical process is still observable:
(http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/08/gsi-ch1-1.png)
Very high data concerning the percentage of muslims inclining to traditionalist islam in the traditional central areas of the world of islam (Middle East and North Africa). These numbers are very likely to be manipulated by official political or other factors, since in these countries there is a strong traditionalist influence on society and the political system.
(http://s23.postimg.org/qo37z6ggr/gsi_ch1_2_1.png)
Very high data concerning the percentage of muslims inclining to the sola-scriptura methodology in the periphery of the muslim world (Central Asia, Indonesia, Caucasus, Russia). These numbers are less likely to be manipulated by official political or other factors, and more likely to be genuine since the countries here have a strong secularist political system.
Quote from: Nazzam on September 17, 2013, 02:43:49 AM
Hi there!
A little while ago when I was ripping the internet of books in pdf format, I stumbled upon a traditionalist heresiography, wherein I recall a passage containing the following words:
''Behind the River (ma wara an-nahr/transoxania) there lives a people who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total. Both their men and their women ride horses and participate in battle, and their men are uncircumsized (..)'
I don't remember which book it was, perhaps someone among you does, and can help me to find it?
Sincerely
Nazzam
Salaam Nazzam,
Thanks! I would be interested in moving to that place for ever. ;D
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: mmkhan on September 17, 2013, 07:31:52 AM
Salaam Nazzam,
Thanks! I would be interested in moving to that place for ever. ;D
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Salaam,
I totally agreeeeeeeeee.
I have already known this.
Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan are awesome.
Furthermore, Kazakhs are amongst the people of high IQ in the world.
The first Moroccan autonomous state (also peripheral) and even before the Zaydi Idrisids, was the Barghawata who were described as 'khariji' :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barghawata
Seems to support my hypothesis about an early solo-scriptura tendency, which would later be subject to the imposing of whatever state-ideology the centralizing authorities upheld.
So far no one remembers or recalls the passage I am looking for?
U perhaps Diamantine?
Peace All
Thanks for this info Nazzam, so according to this graph, there are more "just a muslims" then Shia?
wonder why is Shia recognised as the 2nd largest group after Sunni ?
Has to do with 'official presentation' of data, in contrast with data which is the result of scientific research.
Conclusions which are based on bias are not valid. Data which have been collected based on biased methodology, is not usable, unless its bias itself that is the subject of research.
U cant just say 'the official religion of Morocco is sunni malikite islam, so all its people belong to this sect accordingly'. Thats a fallacy.
The problem is that in many countries, muslims are subject to a limited freedom of speech/thought, which directly has major implications on the quality and representation of social research results.
Of coarse there are ways to circumvent this, but its difficult.
As for 'recognition' is just a matter of political consensus, not social scientific research.
Quote from: Nazzam on September 17, 2013, 05:02:59 AM
Very high data concerning the percentage of muslims inclining to the sola-scriptura methodology in the periphery of the muslim world (Central Asia, Indonesia, Caucasus, Russia). These numbers are less likely to be manipulated by official political or other factors, and more likely to be genuine since the countries here have a strong secularist political system.
Thanks for the information, but you're wrong in the red term.
The term "just a Muslim" is not about sola-scripture or rejecting hadith, but it's because they didn't too care about their own religion, the one of the main cause is that secular atmosphere in political and state matters.
The example is countries in Central Asia like Kaxhakstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgystan, because they're in the past is part of Soviet's republics, so they're already been in long time under secular-communist cultures and even in their independence, the secular atmosphere is still on them.
In Indonesia the term "Quranist" or hadith rejector is not too popular, and it's follower mostly hiding their faith including me.
Peace
Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 08:29:19 AM
Salaam,
I totally agreeeeeeeeee.
I have already known this.
Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan are awesome.
Furthermore, Kazakhs are amongst the people of high IQ in the world.
Salaam,
Red: Are you sure?
These are ones that Nazzam is talking about? Specially the following part:
''Behind the River (ma wara an-nahr/transoxania) there lives a people who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total. Both their men and their women ride horses and participate in battle, and their men are uncircumsized (..)'
I think it is not about Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan,
Nazzam has to clear it where this people live?
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: Earthdom on September 17, 2013, 12:58:00 PM
Thanks for the information, but you're wrong in the red term.
The term "just a Muslim" is not about sola-scripture or rejecting hadith, but it's because they didn't too care about their own religion, the one of the main cause is that secular atmosphere in political and state matters.
The example is countries in Central Asia like Kaxhakstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgystan, because they're in the past is part of Soviet's republics, so they're already been in long time under secular-communist cultures and even in their independence, the secular atmosphere is still on them.
In Indonesia the term "Quranist" or hadith rejector is not too popular, and it's follower mostly hiding their faith including me.
Peace
Hi there :)
I never asserted that the words in red refer to sola-scriptura, but to an inclination to the methodology :)
If their reason is lack of interest or care, so be it. That isnt the point, I didnt discuss their motives, just raw data which are interpretable and made me draw this conclusion.
I have no doubt that the communist era and its influence on the psyche of the people and on the educational/scientific discourse has heavy influence on the generated data, but thats not the point.
The question was how they define themselves, not in communist, socialist, secular, political or life-style terms, but in religious terms. And they answered.
I know about Indonesia, there is a reason why I didnt mention it. In Indonesia, there is an inclinement towards eucumenism due to Indonesias high level of cultural and spiritual diversity. This is translated quite clearly into the ideology of Pancasila, which has strong religious elements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_(politics)
1 Belief in the one and only God, (in Indonesian, Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa).
2 Just and civilized humanity, (in Indonesian, Kemanusiaan Yang Adil dan Beradab).
3 The unity of Indonesia, (in Indonesian, Persatuan Indonesia).
4 Democracy guided by the inner wisdom in the unanimity arising out of deliberations amongst representatives (in Indonesian, Kerakyatan Yang Dipimpin oleh Hikmat Kebijaksanaan, Dalam Permusyawaratan dan Perwakilan)
5 Social justice for all of the people of Indonesia (in Indonesian, Keadilan Sosial bagi seluruh Rakyat Indonesia)
Now lets compare them with the five tenets (!!) of mutazilite thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazila#Tenets
1 Tawheed (very strict in mutazilism)
2 Al Adl (divine justice, of which free will was derived)
3 Al Wa3d wa-l Wa3id (promise and warning; Gods promise to reward and punish justly, not contradicting Himself).
4 Al Manzilah bayn al Manzilatayn (intermediate position of sinners; not excommunicating or denouncing sinners, to promote unity of the ummah and Gods compasion -against takfeer of extremists)
5 Al Amr bi-l Ma3ruf wa-n Nahiy 3ani l-Munkar (advocating good, forbidding evil; social activism in striving for a just society).
Do u see a likeness? Its clear where the Indonesian ideologues got their inspiration from.
1 Same
2 Same
3 Different
4 Similar; denouncing exceptionalism
5 Similar; striving for social justice.
Of coarse there is no widespread organized theological institution which promotes the sola-scriptura methodology, and of coarse shafi'ite sunnism is integrated, although Indonesianized, into the society.
But... it does show an inclination. Egypt, the Hijaz, Syria, Jordan or the Kurdish geocultural area who are predominantly shafi'ite too, are very different from Indonesia.
This is because Indonesia is peripheral, and culturally very distinct and historically isolated from the Middle East. But other than Central Asia, its peripheral location has no historical implications regarding to the introduction of an ancient pre-traditionalist islam. It became muslim quite recently (15th century).
So the reason of this inclination shouldnt be sought in early contact with a pre-traditionalist islam, nor should it be exaggerated. It should be sought in cultural and political factors.
Thats why I focussed on Central Asia only.
Quote from: mmkhan on September 17, 2013, 02:51:01 PM
Salaam,
Red: Are you sure?
These are ones that Nazzam is talking about? Specially the following part:
''Behind the River (ma wara an-nahr/transoxania) there lives a people who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total. Both their men and their women ride horses and participate in battle, and their men are uncircumsized (..)'
I think it is not about Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, Nazzam has to clear it where this people live?
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
I recall 'Maa waraa an-nahr', Transoxania, so... This area:
(http://ansmagazine.com/files/Spring07/bukhara-map.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Karte_Map_Chorasan-Transoxanien-Choresmien.png)
Its in the middle of todays Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and parts of Kirgizstan and Turkmenistan.
It must have been pre-Turkish north Iranian tribes, or perhaps some syncretic ethnicity between newly arrived Turkics and Iranian tribes.
Too bad I will have to screen my pdf books, I have some 20 candidates to fast-read.
Most of these "Just a muslim" are in fact some sort of Mohammedan they just don't admit it. I've met plenty of sunni/shiite that claim they are "just a muslim". Also notice how the less Arabic they speak the less they identify with a sect. That doesn't mean monotheist, though, far from it.
Quote from: mmkhan on September 17, 2013, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 08:29:19 AM
Salaam,
I totally agreeeeeeeeee.
I have already known this.
Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan are awesome.
Furthermore, Kazakhs are amongst the people of high IQ in the world.
Salaam,
Red: Are you sure?
These are ones that Nazzam is talking about? Specially the following part:
''Behind the River (ma wara an-nahr/transoxania) there lives a people who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total. Both their men and their women ride horses and participate in battle, and their men are uncircumsized (..)'
I think it is not about Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, Nazzam has to clear it where this people live?
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Salaam,
You said you want to move
there so I was pretty sure that you were talking about countries where the majority of the folks consider themselves just muslims.
If you check IQ level by countries, Kazakhstan, as a MUSLIM-MAJORITY country has the highest IQ, if you compare to other muslim-majority countries.
Anyway, just because the former USSR countries are former USSR countries, doesn't mean that the people don't care about religion.
Quote from: nonplus on September 17, 2013, 06:36:08 PM
Most of these "Just a muslim" are in fact some sort of Mohammedan they just don't admit it. I've met plenty of sunni/shiite that claim they are "just a muslim". Also notice how the less Arabic they speak the less they identify with a sect. That doesn't mean monotheist, though, far from it.
Salaam,
I agree.
Quote from: Nazzam on September 17, 2013, 04:51:39 PM
I recall 'Maa waraa an-nahr', Transoxania, so... This area:
Its in the middle of todays Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and parts of Kirgizstan and Turkmenistan.
It must have been pre-Turkish north Iranian tribes, or perhaps some syncretic ethnicity between newly arrived Turkics and Iranian tribes.
Too bad I will have to screen my pdf books, I have some 20 candidates to fast-read.
Salaam,
Got it! Thanks! :D
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: nonplus on September 17, 2013, 06:36:08 PM
Most of these "Just a muslim" are in fact some sort of Mohammedan they just don't admit it. I've met plenty of sunni/shiite that claim they are "just a muslim". Also notice how the less Arabic they speak the less they identify with a sect. That doesn't mean monotheist, though, far from it.
Salaam,
I agree :handshake:
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 07:29:11 PM
Salaam,
Red: Are you sure?
These are ones that Nazzam is talking about? Specially the following part:
''Behind the River (ma wara an-nahr/transoxania) there lives a people who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total. Both their men and their women ride horses and participate in battle, and their men are uncircumsized (..)'
I think it is not about Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, Nazzam has to clear it where this people live?
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
Salaam,
You said you want to move there so I was pretty sure that you were talking about countries where the majority of the folks consider themselves just muslims.
If you check IQ level by countries, Kazakhstan, as a MUSLIM-MAJORITY country has the highest IQ, if you compare to other muslim-majority countries.
Anyway, just because the former USSR countries are former USSR countries, doesn't mean that the people don't care about religion.
Salaam,
Thanks! Yes, I wanted to move to a country [if exist any] which is based on "who only uphold the Quran and reject the Sunna in total." I was referring to this quote of Nazzam :D
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
I am a social researcher myself, and I know that while determining questions to be used to answer a question u want to research, u don't ask it directly to prevent bias, but use special techniques to get them answered.
A small chart or diagram is the product of extensive work, according to certain theoretical frameworks and substantiated argumentation, which is publicized in an even larger report. This again will be p2p reviewed by a team of academicians before its granted the rights to be publicized and used in the domain of established scientific institutions.
I am convinced the researches knew what they asked, and the respondents knew what they were answering, and that the data which is presented is a fair representation of social reality.
With all respect, but 'i know many shiite/sunnis who say...' is just as invalid an argument as 'Ibn Abbas has said that...', u get the picture.
:jedi:
Quote from: mmkhan on September 17, 2013, 07:31:52 AM
Salaam Nazzam,
Thanks! I would be interested in moving to that place for ever. ;D
May Allah bless you :pr
mmKhan
WAIT I ALSO WANT TO COME TO THAT PLACE :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:
Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 08:29:19 AM
Salaam,
I totally agreeeeeeeeee.
I have already known this.
Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan are awesome.
Furthermore, Kazakhs are amongst the people of high IQ in the world.
Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 07:29:11 PM
Salaam,
You said you want to move there so I was pretty sure that you were talking about countries where the majority of the folks consider themselves just muslims.
If you check IQ level by countries, Kazakhstan, as a MUSLIM-MAJORITY country has the highest IQ, if you compare to other muslim-majority countries.
Anyway, just because the former USSR countries are former USSR countries, doesn't mean that the people don't care about religion.
Salaam,
There are only 56.4% Muslims (probably most of them are Muslims
TM) of total Kazakhstanis in Kazakhstan.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim-majority_countries
Regards,
Yuliana
I am sure, 100% (I know this is a hell of a assertion, LOL), that there is a demonstrable correlation between the IQ level of a group, and its stance towards religion.
I have no doubt that the introduction of scientifism under the communists, brought about a major transformation in the peoples psyche and world view.
I am 100% sure that sola-scriptura methodology is the most receptible approach to Islam in those area's.
Our 'handicap' (turn it into a strong point I would say), is that we dont have an organized, institutionalized religion with clergy and facilities to exert influence on society.
I guess (to turn it over), we should not try to reform the old institutions but create alternative ones, parallel to the old ones, but which are qualitatively better and easier to access.
There is no magical word or solution, but the internet in combination with modern education and lobbying in politics and economy, must play a major role herein.
:!
Salaam,
Thanks. That's an interesting information.
Quote from: Nazzam on September 18, 2013, 09:41:01 AM
I am sure, 100% (I know this is a hell of a assertion, LOL), that there is a demonstrable correlation between the IQ level of a group, and its stance towards religion.
I seriously doubt that.
I have seen brilliant people on both side of the fence.
What counts though is emotions. If we are entrained towards something, then we tend to support and promote it, regardless of IQ.
But of course, low IQ, and being uneducated, may perhaps make you more gullible and less critical in your thinking, or so I think at least.
Peace