Free Minds

Should American Women Learn to Give Birth at Home?

Each year, roughly 25,000 American women decide to deliver their babies at home, and the numbers are on the rise.

The main reason is a wish to avoid overly invasive procedures during childbirth. Deliveries taking place at home tend to involve far fewer medical interventions and complications.

However, midwife-assisted home births cannot always be easily or legally arranged.

Only 27 U.S. states license or regulate professional midwives. And in the 23 states that lack licensing laws, midwife-attended births are illegal, and midwives may be arrested and prosecuted.

However, according to Time Magazine:

"Momentum appears to be growing. Of the 27 midwife-friendly states, eight began licensing midwives only in the past decade. And legislatures in 10    other states are now considering bills to institute licensing of [professional midwives] -- a fact that has not gone unnoticed by the medical establishment ?

Both the American Medical Association (AMA) and the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) ... oppose home birthing."

Dr. Mercola's Comments:

If a pregnant American woman announces to her friends and family that she is planning a home birth, the first reaction is typically shock, followed by questions like:

- "What will happen if something goes wrong?"
- "Isn't it too dirty?"
-  "Is that safe?"

Unfortunately, this is the product of a medical system that views pregnancy and childbirth as a disease or a problem that has to be "fixed" rather than the completely natural process it actually is.

More than 75 percent of women have normal pregnancies, and for these women a midwife may be more qualified to attend birth than an obstetrician, and giving birth at home may be preferable and safer than doing so in a hospital.

Why Giving Birth at Home Makes Sense

Most people consider hospital births to be safer than home births, but when you look at the facts this isn't the case.

Nearly all U.S. births (99 percent) occur in a hospital, yet the United States has one of the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country (6.3 deaths per 1,000 babies born). In the Netherlands, however, where one-third of deliveries occur in the home with the assistance of midwives, the infant death rate is lower (4.73 deaths per 1,000).

Maternal mortality rates also rose more than 54 percent from 2000 to 2005 in the United States, while decreasing in other developed countries.

This is likely due at least in part to the incredibly high rate of Caesarean section (C-section) in the United States. C-section is the most common operation performed in the United States, and accounts for nearly one-third of all births.

According to the World Health Organization, no country is justified in having a cesarean rate greater than 10 percent to 15 percent.

The United States' rate, at nearly 32 percent, is so high that even The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists admits it is worrisome. This is actually the highest rate ever reported in the United States, and a rate higher than in most other developed countries.

One study in the British Medical Journal found that a woman's risk of death during delivery is three to five times higher during cesarean than a natural delivery, her risk of hysterectomy four times higher, and her risk of being admitted to intensive care is two times higher.

Clearly C-section should be used as a last resort, and only when absolutely necessary. Yet in the United States the rates suggest they are being used far more than that. C-section rates are lower among home births, as well as midwife-attended births. At one small hospital run by the Navajo Nation, where midwives deliver most babies born vaginally, the C-section rate is only 13.5 percent.

New Homebirth Study Gives Outrageously Flawed Results

Unfortunately, a recent study by Dr. Joseph Wax that looked at the safety outcomes of home births versus hospital births gave very misleading conclusions -- and has been publicizing them in the media. What the study found was that:

- Women who delivered at home had fewer interventions such as an epidural, electronic fetal heart rate monitoring, episiotomy, and operative delivery (c-section). They were also less likely to experience lacerations, hemorrhage, and infections.

- Babies born at home had less frequent prematurity, low birthweight, and assisted newborn ventilation.
       
- Planned home and hospital births exhibited similar perinatal mortality rates.

All of these findings suggest that home birth appears to be as safe, if not safer, than hospital birth. However, what the authors focused their results on were the neonatal mortality rates, which are newborn deaths that occur within 28 days of delivery. For this they found that homebirths had a higher rate of death, by three times, compared to hospital births.

The problem with this statistic is that a lot can happen in 28 days after delivery, and many of these deaths were likely completely unrelated to the fact that the babies were born at home.

As Melissa Cheyney, assistant professor of medical anthropology and reproductive health, recently reported in the Huffington Post, " ? congenital anomalies, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, unsafe home environments, and poverty, can all contribute to death in the first month of life."

So the statistic is misleading to start. But the study authors also included what Cheyney calls "faulty data" in their report, such as grouping high-risk and low-risk mothers together and including babies that were unintentionally born at home. This flawed methodology lead to skewed results, and as Cheyney reported:

"As Dr. Michael Klein of the Child and Family Research Institute in Vancouver, B.C. points out, after removing low-quality studies and out-of-date statistics, the Wax study actually demonstrates no difference in outcomes between home and hospital-based delivery, even for neonatal mortality."

My Personal Biases

I have four siblings but am closest to my sister Janet who I started my medical practice with me in 1985. She was my assistant and office manager for 14 years until she got married and left to raise her children.

She has two boys who were both scheduled to deliver at home with an MD who performed  home births. At 31 weeks during her first pregnancy, she developed HELP syndrome, and had to have a hospital birth. We tried IV magnesium and other vitamins in hopes of turning things around, but she was admitted to the hospital and labor was induced at 35 weeks.

That was before my epiphany of the importance of vitamin D, and it is my belief that if we had got her vitamin D levels optimized she likely would have avoided these complications.

About the only complication of the hospital delivery was the painful and unnecessary episiotomy, and also the fact that my nephew received an unwanted hepatitis B injection.

Eighteen months later, she was able to successfully deliver her second son at home with a doctor, and had an absolutely positive experience.

Homebirths Can be Difficult to Plan in the United States - But it Can be Done

In the United States it often takes a lot of diligence and determination to go against the norm and find a physician or midwife who performs homebirths. It is rare to find an obstetrician that will agree to a home birth in the United States, and while certified nurse midwives (CNMs) can legally attend home births in any state, most do not and choose to practice in hospitals instead.

Only 27 states currently license or regulate direct-entry midwives (or certified professional midwives (CPMs), who have undergone training and met national standards to attend homebirths. (You can find the legal status of CPMs in your state here.)

In the other 23, midwife-attended births are illegal, however women often end up finding a midwife on the "black market," who due to lack of any type of regulatory oversight may or may not have adequate training.

It is certainly possible to find highly qualified and trained midwives practicing on the underground market. These women often believe strongly in women's right to choose home birth, and risk being arrested and prosecuted for practicing medicine or nursing without a license to offer their services.

There are also people practicing as midwives who have not received adequate training that can also be found in this underground home birth market, so if you do go this route it's imperative that you thoroughly check out and reference the person you are working with.

A campaign is currently underway to expand state licensing of CPMs so that women who want a home birth can choose from a qualified pool of applicants, but until that happens you have a few legal options for homebirth:

- Find a certified nurse midwife (CNM) who attends homebirths in your state or in a nearby state (then travel to that state to give birth)
- Find a CPM who is either licensed by your state or in a nearby state (then travel to that state to give birth)
- Use a CNM but give birth in a hospital or birth center (a compromise)

To find a midwife in your area, try:

- Midwives Alliance of North America
- Mothers Naturally
- American College of Nurse-Midwives
- Midwifery Today
- BirthLink (Chicago area)

The bottom line is that the surgical interventions obstetricians are trained to use are often unnecessary in a normal pregnancy and delivery, and can cause more harm than good when used inappropriately.

In a healthy pregnancy, a qualified midwife, who is there to offer help, education and support during pregnancy, labor, delivery and after, is actually the safest, most qualified birth attendant, and your home may very well be the best place for you to deliver.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/28/home-birth-is-safer-than-hospital-birth.aspx

Peace all   

Here are more articles about Natural Birth Vs Hospital Births. 

Should You Opt for a Home Birth or Hospital Birth?

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/26/hospital-birth-vs-home-birth.aspx

The Business of Being Born by Ricki Lake

http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/01/09/movies/09born.html?_r=0

By the way, in the documentary "The Business of Being Born" there are a few naked women in the pregnancy scenes. Just wanted to warn you in case you choose to watch it. Because as you all know Al Quran commands us to lower our gaze when we look at the opposite sex (see verses 24:30 and 24:31). Actually you don't need to watch the documentary to learn what you need to know about Natural Birth. You can read about the documentary in the article above, and you can read about natural child birth in other articles and/or books.

Here are 2 articles about the Benefits of Natural/Home Birth:

The Home Birth Advantage: The Physical and Emotional Benefits of Birthing at Home

http://icpa4kids.org/Wellness-Articles/the-home-birth-advantage-the-physical-and-emotional-benefits-of-birthing-at-home.html

Top 6 Benefits of Giving Birth at Home

http://susana-s.hubpages.com/hub/giving-birth-at-home

My cousins living in India who recently had babies were delivered by unnecessary c-section.  It is called greed. 

The amounts of cesarean operations are really worrisome. I think that with a body of well trained professional midwives, women and new borns would be better served than by everything being normalized. By that I mean that birth should be the natural way most of the time, and the abnormal the need for the cesarean or other interventions.

Also I find that 13% of cesareans beeing need is also way too much, so may be either there are not very good midwives or may be pregnant and prepregnant women are not properly prepared to go through pregnancy and delivery.

It is awful that childbirth is like an industry. Appalling.

Salaam

Aoa

Don't have time to reply to all the misconceptions in this thread. Simply to say that advantages of so called normal birth are exaggerated. Those in favour have v little scientific information to back their claims.
It is often claimed  that CS Risks > normal deliveries. However often compare emergency CS to normal delivery.

Emergency CS (in overwhelming numbers) is performed when the so called normal delivery does not remain so normal ie either the mother or the baby becomes at a significant risk. The complications of these sections are then compared with normal deliveries that were without complications.
This would equate to comparing car accidents outcomes of patients who undergo Brian surgery for head injuries & then making a claim that patients who don't undergo brain surgery have better outcome therefore we should not perform any brain surgery on head injury patients. Hope you understand my point.
What we should be asking ourselves is what would happen to women/babies in obstructed labour, bleeding from placenta praevia, foetal distress etc if there was no recourse to CS.

If you want compare like for like then compare fit healthy women who undergo CS with similar group who undergo normal delivery. The only one controlled, Canadian breech, study, had to be halted because the benefits of the CS group were overwhelming, but then hey why let the facts get in the way & after all if all fails then just state the word natural (whatever that means) and everything is explained in one stroke.

Have you ever heard of baby dying during an elective CS due to CS. Virtually unheard of. However the number of babies dying during labour (intrapartum) runs into thousands.

If you want to look at the facts then check the figures of maternal and neonatal mortality  in any one city in the Uk, say 60+ yrs ago when CS were virtually non existent and compare to to today. You will find that in a small town the adverse outcomes in one year were phenomenally greater than the entire uk (recently). suggest you check out the facts.

Regards

Peace

I support this mid-wifery and not unnecessary C-sections. There is a documentary about this and the use of mid-wives by Ricki Lake.

Joe

QuotePeace

Peace

QuoteI support this mid-wifery and not unnecessary C-sections. There is a documentary about this and the use of mid-wives by Ricki Lake.

Whilst it is good to know who who you support. Any scientific facts to support your support.
Regards

Has Mario left this site?  Regarding what he said:

Unfortunately, this is the product of a medical system that views pregnancy and childbirth as a disease or a problem that has to be "fixed" rather than the completely natural process it actually is.

I am not sure where mario got his info that the medical system considers pregnancy and childbirth as a disease.  How so? 

Shoulders being stuck in the maternal pelvis is a completely natural process.  So is breech or arrest of labor and many things that can go wrong NATURALLY.

The word ceaserean was not coined by modern obstetrician.  The etymology of the word goes back to roman times.    It is a procedure that dates back to 300 BC or beyond.  So it is irresponsible not to think of things that can go wrong.   An average person, unless has had personal experience, would not know about all the potential complications of pregnancy and delivery.   A physician trained in obstetrics would know.  When complications do occur, such as postpartum hemorrhage for example,  it is not something that can be managed at home. 

Most deliveries occur without incident.   But sometimes things go wrong and when things go wrong, it can be devastating.    Many woman have died and so have newborns.    Women who want to deliver at home need to understand the risk that they are taking.   No, home is not safe when things go wrong at time of delivery to the mother and to the child.

The aim should be to decrease morbidity and mortality to the mother and the child.   

Re:

More than 75 percent of women have normal pregnancies, and for these women a midwife may be more qualified to attend birth than an obstetrician,

What makes midwives more qualified?  How are they more qualified?  And what qualifications do they have when normal pregnancy go wrong?  AND things do go wrong.   It is irresponsible to think otherwise. 

Re Mario said:
The bottom line is that the surgical interventions obstetricians are trained to use are often unnecessary in a normal pregnancy and delivery, and can cause more harm than good when used inappropriately.


Define "unnecessary".   What do you consider unnecessary? 

  Considering that obstetrics carries the highest liability in United States,  I am sure lawyers would not sit idle if "unnecessary" c-sections are being done especially if it results in bad outcome.   If anything the fear of being sued by patients shapes practices to an extent.  It makes me question if high number of c-sections are being done due to practice of defensive medicine.  I would like to look into the reasons why c-sections are being done.   Also, looking into the demographics meaning are more c-sections performed in inner city hospitals vs rural vs suburban? 

Also, the insurance companies would not just keep paying doctors for c-sections which costs a whole lot more than uncomplicated delivery without questioning?   I think not.  The hospitals keep track and have to meet quality measures.   There are checks and balances in developed countries which are constantly being evaluated, critiqued, and revised resulting in changes.  Solution is not home delivery but look into why c-sections are being done and changing practices, setting up parameters and criteria, constantly evaluating.  Need to progress than regress. 

I know that in areas where my cousins live, there is a high rate of c-sections.  Human nature tends towards greediness, selfishness, ego, arrogance and hence a need for establishment of salat=god's system where peace, justice, moral and ethical systems will prevail.   The response to a broken system is not to be reckless and irresponsible.   We need to have a system where women can have their autonomy in having a delivery that respect their philosophy.   Such a system does exist as the hospitals that I know have midwife deliveries with obstetricians and perinatologist on stand by.    In other words when things go wrong, there is a system in place.   

When looking at data, we need to also look at bias and other factors. Obstetricians perform more c-sections than family physicians (or GP's as they are called elsewhere).  Does that mean family physicians are better than ob/gyn specialists? Ob/gyn manage more complicated cases and hence, it would be expected that they would perform more c-sections.   Midwives are not caring for pregnant women with hypertension, seizure disorder, etc.   women who go to midwives have different characteristics which also need to be taken into account. 

when comparing countries, need to also look at factors such as access to medical care.  In countries with socialized medicine, there is access to medical care to every citizen which is not the case in United States.   So are the rates higher because of physician  practice or is it because of lack of access or poor prenatal care?   

Also on the flip side, high risk pregnant women living in United States having access to better prenatal care are able to carry their pregnancy to at least 24 weeks when resuscitation is possible whereas in other countries such women may not be able to even conceive in the first place or carry to term.   Pregnancies that otherwise would result in abortions in other countries, result in deliveries and I would expect that the c-section rate would be higher in such high risk pregnancies. 

Certainly, the number of c-actions being performed has risen which raises red flags and this is being questioned and evaluated.   

Bottom line though: One can't simply look at c-sections rates and conclude that home delivery results in lower rates. 

I know how numbers can be interpreted and data interpolated to fit ones positions (much the same way as people do with the koran) and erroneous conclusions being drawn.   

Re epidurals, pain meds, episiotomy, forcep and vacuum deliveries. 

physicians are not forcing women to have epidurals or pain meds.  Actually, I would imagine physicians would prefer if the women felt the pain of contraction which would aid in pushing harder.  Standard practice is to address pain which is really subjective experience.  Pain meds are not given to do harm but to alleviate suffering.   A woman can choose not to have epidural of pain meds if she so desires.  She has that autonomy.   

Re:  Episiotomies.  they were being done to minimize soft tissue damage or controlled tear from delivery which now are being done less and less as studies and practices have shown that not to be the case (at least that is my understanding).  Unless it is financial, what other incentive would there be for those doing episiotomies besides?  I am sure a physician would much prefer to do something else than suture episiotomies post delivery creating more work for him/herself. 

If all the maneuvers fail to get a baby out, then what?  Forceps and vacuum deliveries were intended to be used for such cases and are not commonly used for convenience to the mother or the physician to get the baby out quickly. Now, are there people who do just that.  I am sure there are but this is where we need to have checks and balances and quality measures.   In other words establishment and enforcement of salat=gods system of law and codes of conduct.

There is absolutely no way would I ever deliver at home.  I have the autonomy to choose not to have epidural, pain meds if i desire.  Would discuss episiotomies at prenatal visit voicing my position that it is something to be done only in case of emergency and physician does not have my consent otherwise. My doctor is someone who I trust, having confidence in her.

re: neonatal vaccination of Hep B.  i can refuse. my brother did and vaccinate later in life.   I am still on the fence with regards to antibiotic application soon after birth to prevent blindness in children due to chlamydia.   Most women do not know they have it and cannot be sure of the faithfulness of partners.  My primary maternal instinct would be to protect my child.   

In summary, I find Mario's thread to be a dissemination of inaccurate information, misleading, creating greater distrust and not a responsible reaction to a system that he has issues with.   His proposals are reckless.   We should think about creating a better system which minimizes suffering and tragic loss while respects a woman's autonomy.  A safe, ethical and moral system is what we should aim for.   In other words, establishing and enforcing salat = gods system in every aspect of life including obstetrical care.   

The obstetric science does not know anything about uterus; the tell-tale evidence is that there is no uterine problem can it cure. For example, excessive bleeding during menstruation, delayed periods, painful periods, premenstrual symptoms, premenopausal sufferings, post menopausal sufferings, uterine cancer, fibroids, white discharge, how to carry pregnancy through to delivery without complications, anomalies, premature delivery, when to expect extended date of delivery, why the newborn does not take its first breath which they call as delayed breathing leading to brain, why still born, why dead born, developmental defects, why the uterus gives birth to autism, why the uterus produces infant mortality-prone weak babies, why the mothers develop diabetes during pregnancies, how to contain the mothers' diseases from passing on to the babies, why so many mothers do not have sufficient milk, why the mothers' uteri become bulky and loose and so on. This is obstetrics department. This department produces qualified personals in ignorance.

And above all, the obstetrics does not know, how the baby, a foreign body, grows in the uterus of the mother for full term without rejection. If this medical system has even a bit of honesty, can it give an undertaking that none of the above problems should occur when they take a pregnant woman to its anti-natal care department?

Aoa

QuoteThe obstetric science does not know anything about uterus; the tell-tale evidence is that there is no uterine problem can it cure. For example, excessive bleeding during menstruation, delayed periods, painful periods, premenstrual symptoms, premenopausal sufferings, post menopausal sufferings, uterine cancer, fibroids, white discharge, how to carry pregnancy through to delivery without complications, anomalies, premature delivery, when to expect extended date of delivery, why the newborn does not take its first breath which they call as delayed breathing leading to brain, why still born, why dead born, developmental defects, why the uterus gives birth to autism, why the uterus produces infant mortality-prone weak babies, why the mothers develop diabetes during pregnancies, how to contain the mothers' diseases from passing on to the babies, why so many mothers do not have sufficient milk, why the mothers' uteri become bulky and loose and so on. This is obstetrics department. This department produces qualified personals in ignorance.

And above all, the obstetrics does not know, how the baby, a foreign body, grows in the uterus of the mother for full term without rejection. If this medical system has even a bit of honesty, can it give an undertaking that none of the above problems should occur when they take a pregnant woman to its anti-natal care department?

Don't worry many people get delusional and think they know about a subject of which they have no clue. Simple solution just take a sip of water, lye down and say to yourself there is nothing wrong with me and close your eyes. Hopefully these delusions of medical knowledge, human anatomy, physiology etc will go away & you can simply continue to rips people, sorry cure them, by praying for them for a tidy sum of 2000 USD.

Quote from: stillearning on September 04, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Don't worry many people get delusional and think they know about a subject of which they have no clue.

Exactly. This applies to you.
If you have the guts why dont you see for yourself - visit some mothers who have given birth at home and see the Grace and blessings of God.

Quote from: stillearning on September 04, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Simple solution just take a sip of water, lye down and say to yourself there is nothing wrong with me and close your eyes. 

You are deluding yourself. You will not be able to see God as the Curer because of your pride. doctors think: "I know everything. I am a doctor" and fear of losing livelihood makes them "I have spent millions to become a doctor. Now I will squeeze it out of people. Never mind whether they become alright or not. I will keep experimenting on them."

Quote from: stillearning on September 04, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Hopefully these delusions of medical knowledge, human anatomy, physiology etc will go away & you can simply continue to rips people, sorry cure them, by praying for them for a tidy sum of 2000 USD.

I have seen people getting better and completely alright for this 2000 USD.
This is a one-time fee. For having a disease-free, poverty-free living for the entire lifetime and also for living a Grace-filled and graceful life on this earth and hereafter.

I have also seen people spending millions and still suffering/ ending up dead/ bankrupt because of hospitals, doctors, treatments, medicines, etc. In fact hospital refuses to release the dead body unless the bill is paid in full. Don't you think this is attrocious.

Quote from: stillearning on September 04, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
& you can simply continue to rips people, sorry cure them, by praying for them for a tidy sum of 2000 USD.

Yes doctors rip apart their organs, their body head to toe in the name of treatment leading to their gory deaths. They don't even allow the patient to Rest in Peace, but suffer an agonized, torturous end.

Gita

Stillearning,

You have not answered that you can cure atleast one problem in the long list mentioned by Dr Fazl.

... and they will be encircled by what they used to mock.
39:18

Seriously, don't you think, God, who creates the baby can bring the baby into this world in a beautiful manner without any help. Yes or No. Give me a straight answer.

Gita

Wiselite I am responding to you not because you will have the slightest understanding of anything I may post but simply that there are many out there who are taken in by the nonsense you post in favour of these fraudulent holy men who who use God's name to fleece people from their hard earned cash. There are hundreds and thousands of these fraudsters in the Indian subcontinent who claim to cure by their holy powers.

QuoteIf you have the guts why dont you see for yourself - visit some mothers who have given birth at home and see the Grace and blessings of God.

Ah! You gutsy warrior. Not sure what relevance this has to my point.
However Your senseless post assumes that those that born outside of the home do not have God's grace and blessing and secondly that I have not visited mothers who have given births at home. So visiting these mothers at home makes one brave. Gosh I did not realise how brave I am.

QuoteI have seen people getting better and completely alright for this 2000 USD.
This is a one-time fee. For having a disease-free, poverty-free living for the entire lifetime and also for living a Grace-filled and graceful life on this earth and hereafter.

Really you come from country where millions live in dreadful poverty & disease. if your Guru is so capable why does he not free them from poverty & disease by simply praying for them.

QuoteYou have not answered that you can cure atleast one problem in the long list mentioned by Dr Fazl.

Other than pointless rambling not sure what he has mentioned. Go to your local bookshop and there will be basic books regarding, uterus, menses etc.. Many are basic enough even for you and him to understand .

Quote
Seriously, don't you think, God, who creates the baby can bring the baby into this world in a beautiful manner without any help. Yes or No. Give me a straight answer.

You might be surprised t o learn that babies used to die and suffered terrible brain damage long before obstetricians came on the scene, whose fault was it then. Also there are millions of mothers who suffer terrible complications and yet cannot even get near to a doctor.
God has created humans with intelligence to utilise to try to improve themselves, very much like the Internet and the computer you are using to try to get your view across the globe. Whilst standing in the open and shouting may get few people's attention, doubt your message will get far. Medicine is no different it is God's creation utilising God given intelligence to better itself.
By the way can he pray so a super duper laptop can suddenly appear in front of me & I promise to reimburse him his fees.

Quote from: stillearning on September 05, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
Other than pointless rambling not sure what he has mentioned.

Quote from: drfazl on August 24, 2013, 11:11:37 PM

.. the tell-tale evidence is that there is no uterine problem can it cure. For example, excessive bleeding during menstruation, delayed periods, painful periods, premenstrual symptoms, premenopausal sufferings, post menopausal sufferings, uterine cancer, fibroids, white discharge, how to carry pregnancy through to delivery without complications, anomalies, premature delivery, when to expect extended date of delivery, why the newborn does not take its first breath which they call as delayed breathing leading to brain, why still born, why dead born, developmental defects, why the uterus gives birth to autism, why the uterus produces infant mortality-prone weak babies, why the mothers develop diabetes during pregnancies, how to contain the mothers' diseases from passing on to the babies, why so many mothers do not have sufficient milk, why the mothers' uteri become bulky and loose and so on.. 

And above all, the obstetrics does not know, how the baby, a foreign body, grows in the uterus of the mother for full term without rejection..

peace,

do you really think this a pointless rambling.

peace.

Stillearning,

I understand your concern. I agree. There are fraudulent holy men.
But what happened to a person's discerning ability to know whether a person is fraud or genuine. Why should they allow themselves to be fooled. If they had humbly said "I don't know whether this person is genuine or not", then God would have shown signs to prove it. When we seek His guidance, we will intuitively get it.

I choose to ignore your mocking words as I would like to see only what's good in you.

This happened when I visited a mother who had given birth to a child recently. One day the baby was crying relentlessly and she tried to give water, breast-feed her, make him sleep but nothing worked. Then something made her go near the tap and open the water. The baby stopped crying. She wiped his face and moved away from the tap. Baby started crying again non-stop. Then she decided to give baby a bath. Baby stopped crying and enjoyed the bath. What the mother realized was that the baby was crying to be bathed as he was feeling hot. The point is God's guidance can be noticed only when we pay attention, observe minutely. To pay attention, we need to be calm, peaceful so that we can think clearly. 

Just for a second, think how beautiful it will be to believe, what if no hospitals, medicines, doctors are required for someone to become alright. What if an individual turns to God wishing for a comfortable life, believes that if he/she lives a righteous life, will be free from poverty, disease or any other suffering. Will God not grant that?

You need guts to face the truth. You need guts to throw away your education, learned knowledge, your livelihood and trust only God. This guts is the faith in God.

I have proofs that natural birth is successful by God's grace. Can you say the same about hospital births? I am also saying this for thousands who are reading this. Let people who are reading it decide for themselves which is better.

You keep missing the point, Dr Fazl never says he cures them. When I am ill, its my faith in God that heals me.

You have not said anything about my comment that millions spent in hospitals and doctors going down the drain without patient becoming cured. You conveniently choose to ditch/ignore how these so called health care corporate and insurance companies usurp / literally suck our blood / money in the name of treatment.
I assume either you do not have an answer or you agree with what I said.

Facts:
During delivery mothers should not push the baby out.
Baby will come out with the help of the uterus natural contractions, provided mother has not taken any medicines throughout pregnancy.
Mother should be prayerful and peaceful.
Ceasarian birth results in weak, disease-prone child.
Baby should come out through vagina only where there are lot of virus and bacteria which gives immunity for the child.

Does the allopathy medical system talk about any of this God given wisdom. Years back there were no medical system. Babies were born is it not??

Gita

Aoa

Quotedo you really think this a pointless rambling.

Yes. Not a single sentence based on facts or common sense. You have put Dr as your title, however not sure you have much detailed knowledge about medicine.
Let us take the very beginning of his, what I call pointless rumblings. That obstetric medicine does not know ANYTHING about the uterus. Is this guy really serious. This implies either he is completely ignorant or a completely dishonest.
We know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth. I could go on & on. These are also very basic facts about the uterus and in no way detailed. There are huge text books written on different aspects of the uterus & therefore to state what he has stated, well I will let anyone with any intelligence to reach their own conclusion.
Our knowledge about anything in the universe is limited to what we know at any given time & I doubt we will learn ever everything about anything. This also applies to the uterus.
The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.


Aoa Wiselite.

Appreciate your attempts to at a civilised dialogue & will respond in kind.

However if you look DrFazl, he does not engage in any dialogue which is factually based.... Just go and read my posts and see how many questions he has answered directly. Simple example checkout my posts regarding small pox. I have no personal experience of any individual and can only judge by what they have written & it is entirely feasible that I have completely misunderstood your & Drfazl's characters. However from what he has written I can only conclude that he is a complete fraud with very limited understanding of orthodox medicine and avoids answering any direct factual questions.

QuoteI understand your concern. I agree. There are fraudulent holy men.
But what happened to a person's discerning ability to know whether a person is fraud or genuine. Why should they allow themselves to be fooled. If they had humbly said "I don't know whether this person is genuine or not", then God would have shown signs to prove it. When we seek His guidance, we will intuitively get it.

I think my above point will have answered this.

QuoteThis happened when I visited a mother who had given birth to a child recently. One day the baby was crying relentlessly and she tried to give water, breast-feed her, make him sleep but nothing worked. Then something made her go near the tap and open the water. The baby stopped crying. She wiped his face and moved away from the tap. Baby started crying again non-stop. Then she decided to give baby a bath. Baby stopped crying and enjoyed the bath. What the mother realized was that the baby was crying to be bathed as he was feeling hot. The point is God's guidance can be noticed only when we pay attention,  observe minutely. To pay attention, we need to be calm, peaceful so that we can think clearly.   

I am sure you are genuinely trying to make a point. Do you think DrAfzl and his followers are the only people who notice God's signs. If so what a misguidedly arrogant assumption.

Quote
Just for a second, think how beautiful it will be to believe, what if no hospitals, medicines, doctors are required for someone to become alright. What if an individual turns to God wishing for a comfortable life, believes that if he/she lives a righteous life, will be free from poverty, disease or any other suffering. Will God not grant that?

I would, and I think billions others will as well, love the world to have no disease and poverty. Unfortunately the world is not quite like this and you might be surprised to learn it never has been.
Even if your argument about doctors causing diseases is correct. Just simply explain how they are responsible for poverty and individuals who have never come within miles of a doctor or pre doctor, drugs etc people still suffered from horrible diseases.
Did prophet Mohd's sons not die very young or was that the fault of the present Doctors and Hospitals?

QuoteYou need guts to face the truth. You need guts to throw away your education, learned knowledge, your livelihood and trust only 

Please practice what you preach. Reading and writing is acquired by Education ( unless there are simple prayer methods). However you do not appear to have discarded these. Also your livelihood, I assume you mean employment to earn a living. Howe are you managing to feed yourself?

QuoteGod. This guts is the faith in God.

Most on this forum believe in God but not sure why it requires guts!

Quote
I have proofs that natural birth is successful by God's grace. Can you say the same about hospital births? I am also saying this for thousands who are reading this. Let people who are reading it decide for themselves which is better

.

Either you have very little understanding of the subject you are discussing or deliberately being disingenuous.
Humans have been born long before any form of obstetric intervention came into being and vast majority are born without any medical assistance. The reason why humans (not always doctors) tried to intervene in certain births was significant number of mothers, babies not only seriously injured but during this process of so called natural childbirth.
Just check out the figures of maternal and neonatal mortality in areas where there are no doctors or hospitals and compare it to the areas where the medical facilities are in abundance.

QuoteYou keep missing the point, Dr Fazl never says he cures them. When I am ill, its my faith in God that heals me.

Let me understand this. He is charging them to point out they should have faith in God.

QuoteYou have not said anything about my comment that millions spent in hospitals and doctors going down the drain without patient becoming cured. You conveniently choose to ditch/ignore how these so called health care corporate and insurance companies usurp / literally suck our blood / money in the name of treatment.

You have covered the whole world in two sentences. Hospitals, doctors and corporate insurance companies.
I am not here to defend the bog corporations. As for Doctors and hospitals: I owe my life these doctors as I was successfully treated of a condition which number of my older family members died as they had no access to doctors or the hospitals.
I was born in a small village (no doctors or hospitals) & even as a child I can recall number of women and babies that died during your so called home birth. I presumed you live in India, why don't you go and checkout some very rural areas and see if no babies or mother die when these individuals have never seen. Doctor in their life.

Quote
Facts:
During delivery mothers should not push the baby out.
Baby will come out with the help of the uterus natural contractions, provided mother has not taken any medicines throughout pregnancy.

Sorry whose facts are these. The above statements are ridiculously inaccurate and go against every thing we know about child birth.
Can you tell me how you have established these as facts?

Quote
Mother should be prayerful and peaceful.

For once agreed, and so should be everyone else.

QuoteCeasarian birth results in weak, disease-prone child.
Baby should come out through vagina only where there are lot of virus and bacteria which gives immunity for the child.

More nonsense.

QuoteDoes the allopathy medical system talk about any of this God given wisdom. Years back there were no medical system. Babies were born is it not??

Yes babies were born and significant number used to die. So your point is


Regards

My sister had a natural birth at her home in her bath tube she wanted to feel how it will feel giving naturally she said she felt empowered

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Aoa

We know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth. I could go on & on. These are also very basic facts about the uterus and in no way detailed. There are huge text books written on different aspects of the uterus & therefore to state what he has stated, well I will let anyone with any intelligence to reach their own conclusion.
Our knowledge about anything in the universe is limited to what we know at any given time & I doubt we will learn ever everything about anything. This also applies to the uterus.
The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.


Aoa Wiselite.

Appreciate your attempts to at a civilised dialogue & will respond in kind.

However if you look DrFazl, he does not engage in any dialogue which is factually based.... Just go and read my posts and see how many questions he has answered directly. Simple example checkout my posts regarding small pox. I have no personal experience of any individual and can only judge by what they have written & it is entirely feasible that I have completely misunderstood your & Drfazl's characters. However from what he has written I can only conclude that he is a complete fraud with very limited understanding of orthodox medicine and avoids answering any direct factual questions.

Dear wiselite,

You were absolutely perfect about MM and here are certain facts for your enlightenment on medicos.

QuoteWe know its position

Seeing the position we cannot say when she would conceive; whether she would normally deliver her baby; when would the delivery pain start; in how many hours the delivery would complete with its placenta; whether the placenta would naturally expel or it would need brutal medico-manual extraction so that the lady would suffer future after effects. They know nothing. But they are not ashamed.

Go ahead wiselite.
More to follow:

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Aoa

We know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth. I could go on & on. These are also very basic facts about the uterus and in no way detailed. There are huge text books written on different aspects of the uterus & therefore to state what he has stated, well I will let anyone with any intelligence to reach their own conclusion.
Our knowledge about anything in the universe is limited to what we know at any given time & I doubt we will learn ever everything about anything. This also applies to the uterus.
The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.


Aoa Wiselite.

Appreciate your attempts to at a civilised dialogue & will respond in kind.

However if you look DrFazl, he does not engage in any dialogue which is factually based.... Just go and read my posts and see how many questions he has answered directly. Simple example checkout my posts regarding small pox. I have no personal experience of any individual and can only judge by what they have written & it is entirely feasible that I have completely misunderstood your & Drfazl's characters. However from what he has written I can only conclude that he is a complete fraud with very limited understanding of orthodox medicine and avoids answering any direct factual questions.

QuoteWe know its position, blood supply

wiselite,

We know its position, we know its blood supply: But what we do not know is why there is excess bleeding in many or no bleeding but only spotting in some during the menstruation; we do not know whether it is normal physiological adjustment or pathological development.

And we do not know why there is intolerable pain in many while normal in some during menses; why there is delayed menstruation that it does not happen for months and then there is sudden gush of blood for weeks non-stop; we would only say there is hormonal excess and deficits without knowing the causes for it; we would then only play havoc with the patients' harmonious mechanisms of their naturally fluctuating hormones with the  semi-synthetic hormones. We will only meddle with the natural mechanisms with our 'semi' knowledge, you know!

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Aoa

We know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth. I could go on & on. These are also very basic facts about the uterus and in no way detailed. There are huge text books written on different aspects of the uterus & therefore to state what he has stated, well I will let anyone with any intelligence to reach their own conclusion.
Our knowledge about anything in the universe is limited to what we know at any given time & I doubt we will learn ever everything about anything. This also applies to the uterus.
The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.


Aoa Wiselite.

Appreciate your attempts to at a civilised dialogue & will respond in kind.

However if you look DrFazl, he does not engage in any dialogue which is factually based.... Just go and read my posts and see how many questions he has answered directly. Simple example checkout my posts regarding small pox. I have no personal experience of any individual and can only judge by what they have written & it is entirely feasible that I have completely misunderstood your & Drfazl's characters. However from what he has written I can only conclude that he is a complete fraud with very limited understanding of orthodox medicine and avoids answering any direct factual questions.

QuoteWe know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions,

We know its physiology of its actions:

We would fool the people with these tantrums when people encounter us; these public would not know we are playing with our jargons. If our claim is true that we know the physiology of uterus, then why are we unable to set a pathologically suffering uterus, back to physiologically functioning organ; why are we 100 percent at our wits' end in almost all patients that we butcher out the uterus with our knives? If there is a bleeding uterus, we would throw away the organ; if there is a lesion in the uterus or there is a swelling, or a bigger swelling, or a benign tumour, or a fast growing tumour - they do not matter at all; just cut and eliminate the organ. If there are donkeys around with no sense of understanding us, when we are openly deceiving, why should we ever stop putting burden on their backs, especially when they are patients?

The MM philosophy of physiology is very simple: you suffer because there is this bloody organ, uterus; remove it and be happy; operation success is the rhetoric of MM. But later on? There develops secondaries of the tumour elsewhere. We apply the same philosophy of MM physiology as before - take the knife and slaughter the organs wherever there is evidence of secondary tumours; if extensive burn the patient with radiation therapy; and before that we do enjoy the sharpness of the blades with our blunt brains.

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Aoa

We know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth. I could go on & on. These are also very basic facts about the uterus and in no way detailed. There are huge text books written on different aspects of the uterus & therefore to state what he has stated, well I will let anyone with any intelligence to reach their own conclusion.
Our knowledge about anything in the universe is limited to what we know at any given time & I doubt we will learn ever everything about anything. This also applies to the uterus.
The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.


Aoa Wiselite.

Appreciate your attempts to at a civilised dialogue & will respond in kind.

However if you look DrFazl, he does not engage in any dialogue which is factually based.... Just go and read my posts and see how many questions he has answered directly. Simple example checkout my posts regarding small pox. I have no personal experience of any individual and can only judge by what they have written & it is entirely feasible that I have completely misunderstood your & Drfazl's characters. However from what he has written I can only conclude that he is a complete fraud with very limited understanding of orthodox medicine and avoids answering any direct factual questions.

QuoteWe know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures,

wiselite,

We know ..... surrounding structures:

This is very important subject of MM. Unless we know the surrounding structures of uterus such as the ovaries we will not be able to able to cut and remove them even as they are physiologically functioning and no aberrancy in it or no physical problems caused due to it; we should know the surrounding structures of the uterus because we do not know how to save a physiologically functioning ovaries or a pathological uterus from spreading to the ovaries. Not only this, we remove even the remotely positioned female organs, the breasts. Because we know that a lesion from the ovaries would go and invade the breasts too; and we are so dumb as doctors that we are, we are moronic spectators giving the running commentary of the diseases as they keep spreading, using our bio-scope, the MRI - Moron Recognisable Information.

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
I could go on & on.

We will never stop wiselite; these gullible people and patients are our bread winners; the governments world over are on our sides as they are on the pay-rolls of the drug-lords. if you know, the MM is made the legal out let of the illegal drugs and medicines. So who could stop us, do you think?

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Aoa

We know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth. I could go on & on. These are also very basic facts about the uterus and in no way detailed. There are huge text books written on different aspects of the uterus & therefore to state what he has stated, well I will let anyone with any intelligence to reach their own conclusion.
Our knowledge about anything in the universe is limited to what we know at any given time & I doubt we will learn ever everything about anything. This also applies to the uterus.
The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.


Aoa Wiselite.

Appreciate your attempts to at a civilised dialogue & will respond in kind.

However if you look DrFazl, he does not engage in any dialogue which is factually based.... Just go and read my posts and see how many questions he has answered directly. Simple example checkout my posts regarding small pox. I have no personal experience of any individual and can only judge by what they have written & it is entirely feasible that I have completely misunderstood your & Drfazl's characters. However from what he has written I can only conclude that he is a complete fraud with very limited understanding of orthodox medicine and avoids answering any direct factual questions.

QuoteWe know its position, blood supply, physiology of its actions, surrounding structures, how it increases in size during pregnancy, how the cervix dilates before birth.

wiselite, I know you are about to ask then what the heck you are doing with the dilators and force opening the birth canal with your forceps? How many heads of the foetus you might have crushed or damaged their brains during forceps delivery? If you know how the birth canal dilates during pregnancy, then why C-section deliveries? wiselite our only answer to you is: who is the doctor here? You or we?  so shut up and stay dumb!

Quote from: Loveleen on September 11, 2013, 09:23:01 AM
My sister had a natural birth at her home in her bath tube she wanted to feel how it will feel giving naturally she said she felt empowered

God had saved and blessed your sister from the O & Gs. This is how God helps those who are good doers.

drfazl

Quote from: stillearning on September 05, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
By the way can he pray so a super duper laptop can suddenly appear in front of me & I promise to reimburse him his fees.

Peace dr Fazl,

This reminds me of the ayat:

6:35 - And if their evasion is difficult for you, then if you are able to seek a tunnel into the earth or a stairway into the sky to bring them a sign, [then do so]. But if Allah had willed, He would have united them upon true guidance. So never be of the ignorant.

Gita

Stillearning,

I think dr Fazl's explanation is very reasonable. His concern for women about childbirth and mankind as a whole should be appreciated. He is bold enough to talk the truth and expose the entire medical fraternity which you seem to frown upon:

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
You have covered the whole world in two sentences. Hospitals, doctors and corporate insurance companies. I am not here to defend the bog corporations.

Gita

peace still learning,

what is Aoa?

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM

You have put Dr as your title, however not sure you have much detailed knowledge about medicine.

yes, i do not have detailed knowledge about modern medicine. only a little understanding given by God, how our body system works.  so i do not go to any doctor by God's leave.  but, doctors - allopathy, siddha, acupuncture, homeopathy, veterinary, naturecure, do come to me as patients.

Quote from: stillearning on September 06, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Yes. Not a single sentence based on facts or common sense. ..
..This implies either he is completely ignorant or a completely dishonest.
..The rest of his post is also utter ignorant nonsense.

if we refer drfazl's post 23 - 28, we can see he is knowledgeable and honest.

many patients who came to me had faced such consequences caused by prior and post allopathic treatments.  this proves and confirms to me that drfazl is saying the truth.

peace.

 OaO still learning

I studied medicine to cure the sick people, to save the diseased people. I studied medicine not to kill people,not to misguide the people. I was very much disappointed after practising 20 years of modern medicine. People are getting only temporary relief or they go for lot complications with medicines or surgeries. Recently i read a news that an american parent filed a case against a hospital and drug companies and proved in the court that only because of the vaccination the child got irreversible complications. Almost the child is now in a vegetative state. American court confirmed after seven years of legal battle. The hospital was askedto pay the compensation of so many millions to the parents. No many can be equivalent to their child. 

Recently a seven yr old boy brought by his mother to my clinic 2 months before. She said she gave all the vaccinations as advised by the american doctors.she said "My child was alright for first six months then he is unable to listen what i say and not obeys what teacher says. Now the child is unfit to study in school". He is suffering from attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder according to modern medicine. I dont know how many 1000s of children are suffering like this after vaccinations. 

Dr.Stilllearning have you seen the film american beauty ? Our people may live in poverty but we are humane and cultured. After the oklohama tragedy i read a song in youtube based on a true incident which goes,"oh god this 1 storm is not sufficient ,please send 100s like this to root out all these people". The incident is a girl of 8 years who wanted to escape from her step-father abusing her sexually. This reveals the nature of american society. 

In our state lakhs of people are following dr.fazl's speech and thousands of deliveries are getting conducted. Initially a few fatalities occured but after that not even a single bad incident happened. People are following dr.fazl's book written in tamil "Home delivery by god's way"

There is no need of certificate from anybody in the world for dr.fazl because people acknowledge him and follow since god is guiding him. 

Remember the history, every civilsation will dig its own grave likewise everyone who follow modern medicine will dig their own grave. 

(http://s7.postimg.org/bu2w4xqtn/noidea.png) (http://postimage.org/)

SL, all doctors and personnel related to the medical field in any way, shape or form are ginger tabbies in white coats to some.

Aoa

Quote
SL, all doctors and personnel related to the medical field in any way, shape or form are ginger tabbies in white coats to some.

:) lol

To all those calling themselves drs and wise people. We can start a sensible discussion when you stop smoking what ever its that you are smoking, for it is seriously effecting your ability to work out 2+2=4. No matter how many of you guys state to the contrary by normal human understanding it is 4.

drfazl


Pointless ignorant (or deliberately dishonest) rambling nonsense.

However someone who can write this:

QuoteWe will never stop wiselite; these gullible people and patients are our bread winners

$2000. Pot, kettle, black

Quote from: stillearning on September 13, 2013, 04:38:20 PM
Aoa

No matter how many of you guys state to the contrary by normal human understanding 2+2 is 4.

According to common understanding with sensible people with applied intelligence guided by intuition, numbers never matter; but for material, down to earth dunces numbers and materials are life. Keep counting heads as they role under your MM.

Quote from: stilllearning on September 05, 2013, 04:40:06 PM

Really you come from country where millions live in dreadful poverty & disease. if your Guru is so capable why does he not free them from poverty & disease by simply praying for them.


Other than pointless rambling not sure what he has mentioned. Go to your local bookshop and there will be basic books regarding, uterus, menses etc.. Many are basic enough even for you and him to understand .

You might be surprised t o learn that babies used to die and suffered terrible brain damage long before obstetricians came on the scene, whose fault was it then. Also there are millions of mothers who suffer terrible complications and yet cannot even get near to a doctor.
God has created humans with intelligence to utilise to try to improve themselves, very much like the Internet and the computer you are using to try to get your view across the globe. Whilst standing in the open and shouting may get few people's attention, doubt your message will get far. Medicine is no different it is God's creation utilising God given intelligence to better itself.
By the way can he pray so a super duper laptop can suddenly appear in front of me & I promise to reimburse him his fees.

QuoteMedicine is no different it is God's creation utilising God given intelligence to better itself.

Is there any reference to this effect in Quran? Medicine is God's creation? Or you say on Allah that which you know not?

QuoteGod has created humans with intelligence to utilise to try to improve themselves

God created humans without a flaw like he had created any other creation from skies to earth and all in between; and it is inclusive primarily of inherent wisdom. Wisdom is total and complete; and Allah had completed and perfected Quran as the only guidance for those who ponder to get reminded of the wisdom. These are the people who give thanks to Allah; and as a reward to this show of thanks Allah increases them in their application of wisdom throughout their lives. Allah and His Quran is there only to guide and upgrade us from the intelligence which is given as only a test unto those who believe not in the only guidance from the Most Wise, All-Knowing.

You cannot improve upon your intelligence yourselves but by His Leave.

QuoteWhilst standing in the open and shouting may get few people's attention, doubt your message will get far

Those who are humble, attentive and God-abiding are but a few, if you know. My message shall thus not hit who are far away from earshot.

QuoteBy the way can he pray so a super duper laptop can suddenly appear in front of me & I promise to reimburse him his fees.

You are completely lost getting at me. I do not pray for anybody; I show them the way to pray primarily for Allah is keen watcher over their efforts at mending their evil ways and intent to listen to their faithful call. And if they do so, then if Allah so wish there is chance of intercession by His Leave. So my prayer is of secondary nature. You cannot reimburse me for this even if you possess all worlds.

QuoteReally you come from country where millions live in dreadful poverty & disease. if your Guru is so capable why does he not free them from poverty & disease by simply praying for them.

Not really. it is a mixed population here with wealth, health, poverty, diseases and with all ups and downs. The worlds second and fourth wealthiest people are of this country. It is rich in perceptible wisdom and down to earth knowledge; western nations are possessed with avarice towards power and arrogance where as the people of eastern nations are antagonists and are free from such evil. Current position is rehabilitation course for the people who are put to test by God.

But it is time to understand usa are becoming wholesomely, and growingly mentally sick generation because of their evil possessed, trangressive mindset. This country from physical sickness and affliction had crossed all limits of civilised threshold of tolerance and had entered deep into mental sickness is what the world is seeing. This is a situation of total abandonment. Very pitiable situation indeed.

Here is the warning from Allah:

16:112  And Allah presents an example: a nation which was safe and secure, its provision coming to it in abundance from every location, but it became ungrateful to the favors of Allah . So Allah made it taste the extreme degree of hunger and fear for what they had been doing.

3:178   And let not those who disbelieve in humility think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement.

And so,

3:106   Let it not deceive you that those who disbelieve go to and fro in the land head-high.


May God Bless
fazl

Here is the case for the MM doctors rambling here. what a beautiful treatment is going on. Their vaccines after the birth had caused this. What are your says:

Dr, I thank God for giving me this opportuninty to contact you. I've been blessed with 2nd baby boy last year. Till 5 days after birth, he was normal like my 1st baby boy after which he aspirated milk and stopped breathing. His diagnosis are Severe GERD, Tracheomalacia, Sensiro neural hearing loss in both the ears. He had Nissen fundoplication surgery and G tube placed. I'm still feeding him in G tube. He is slowly starting to take baby food 2 or 3 tsp. He has secretions pooling in the throat, for which we are going for vital stim therapy. He has been getting frequent ear infections and Dr has planned to operate to remove his adenoid glands and put tubes in the ears. He is on hearing aids now. CT scan results showed Cochlear dysplasia. Dr, please tell what I should do for him to eat, breath normally and hear everything. Thank you so much for your kindness.

http://foolproofcure.net/mythandtruth.aspx

fazl

.

peace,

for some 'it' is warning;  for many 'it' is charming.  you are not able to distinguish a Warner from a charmer.

I consider drfazl is warning about medicine systems.  but here many are arguing about doctors good nature and bad nature. quite a difference.

if someone got better feeling from medical systems, it's because by the grace of Lord the Curer to his bondsmen, not for the medicine system man has created.

peace.

Quote from: drfazl on September 13, 2013, 11:14:33 PM

Here is the case for the MM doctors rambling here. what a beautiful treatment is going on. Their vaccines after the birth had caused this. What are your says:

Dr, I thank God for giving me this opportuninty to contact you. I've been blessed with 2nd baby boy last year. Till 5 days after birth, he was normal like my 1st baby boy after which he aspirated milk and stopped breathing. His diagnosis are Severe GERD, Tracheomalacia, Sensiro neural hearing loss in both the ears. He had Nissen fundoplication surgery and G tube placed. I'm still feeding him in G tube. He is slowly starting to take baby food 2 or 3 tsp. He has secretions pooling in the throat, for which we are going for vital stim therapy. He has been getting frequent ear infections and Dr has planned to operate to remove his adenoid glands and put tubes in the ears. He is on hearing aids now. CT scan results showed Cochlear dysplasia. Dr, please tell what I should do for him to eat, breath normally and hear everything. Thank you so much for your kindness.

http://foolproofcure.net/mythandtruth.aspx

fazl

Within hours after birth the MM barbarians had given vaccinations that affect nervous system in hypersensitive or immune sensitive babies to drive away the foreign bodies and toxins, the derivatives of the vaccinated materials which led to paralysis of specific innervations of the nervous system of this baby within 5 days of birth. Within 5 days of birth, a healthy baby became terribly ill, and was diagnosed to be suffering from severe GERD, Gastro-esophagial-reflex-disease. This is no diagnosis at all. The meaning of the diagnosis is: the child regurgitates the milk as the food pipe from throat down has been rendered paralysed. This diagnosis says nothing about the reason that had possibly led to this state. The reason is the vaccination caused neural paralysis.

Trachea, the muscles of the air passage is no more functioning; so there is respiratory difficulty as added suffering. This they call tracheomalacia which says there is no cure. The baby is put a G tube to the stomach; ear tube for ear infection; tracheal tube for respiration survival; all these were created and developed in the hospital care, specialised for infants.

This barbaric treatment is going on in Detroit.

fazl

In the Indian subcontinent, and many other area, there are millions of fraudsters in the guise of holy men, alternative medical practitioners. They mainly operate by travelling around and claim to cure all sorts of ailments known to mankind either by means of their divine powers or by means of a miracle cure only they know.

They usually have about three other crooks with them, who pretend to be completely unknown to the main crook and then proceed to be cured of an extremely debilitating condition.
The finale, which most of you are probably aware, is that everyone can be relieved of their afflictions for a tidy sum of money.

It would seem that the process, almost in an identical manner, has gone global by the means of Internet.


Rank   Country   Infant mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births)
1   Afghanistan   121.63
2   Niger   109.98
3   Mali   109.08
4   Somalia   103.72
5   Central African Republic   97.17
218   Sweden   2.74
219   Singapore   2.65
220   Bermuda   2.47
221   Japan   2.21
222   Monaco   1.80


Above is a quick summary of infant mortality rates. This is the number of deaths in the Ist year of life per 1000 births

Intelligent and honest conclusion:
                  Economically advanced countries, ie better health facilities (mm - to some) better the chance of a child surviving.

For those who will argue to the contrary: I will let the you draw your own conclusions about their intellect and motives.


SMALLPOX

Written about in ancient texts.

19th century caused 300 million deaths.

Vaccine developed, who started worldwide programme in 50s. Virus completely eradicated in 1986. Since no reported deaths.
I will let you draw your own conclusion why those opposed to medicine may criticise vaccines.

Will post more when have few moments

Why vaccination deaths and paralysis occur when all parameters about vaccines safety measures are well preserved? Let the barbarians speak out. Why there are adverse effects and adverse diseases cripple the patients who are already ill with every medicine the druggists administer? When creating newer diseases in an already ill cannot be avoided, where is the question if these drug lords curing the diseases?

If the claim of curing the small pox vaccine is true, why the barbarians cannot cure chicken pox, hepatitis, swine flu, HIV, common flu, typhoid, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, tuberculosis, malaria, chikunguniya etc, and are these not eradicated from the globe? Why this paradox? The answer to this is small pox is not eradicated as these drug lords claim with their crooked, distorted and cooked up statistics but as nature evolves elimination of some species and creation of newer species with newer more powerful diseases is the rule. And that is happening.

It is well known to the world, the fraudulent practice of the MM drug-lords to hire the killers in white coat uniform to give deliberately false research reports and bribe the governments to accept the drugs to distribute among the people. It is for anybody to understand who the fraudsters are that maim, and butcher, and kill and squander the money in the name of medicine and surgery.

An information:

Vaccination is the stolen principle by the drug lords from the Homoeopathy Medical System, invented by Hahnemann. The principle of homeopathic cure is this: "Like diseases are cured by like diseases." MM principle of medicine is completely alien to this. What do you think about the robbers who having robbed mishandle a beautiful concept of homeopathy? Under the auspices of homeopathic physicians there are no fatal deaths or adverse reactions; but in the hands of robbers what havoc they cause to the suffering patients is beyond tolerance.

QuoteWhy vaccination deaths and paralysis occur when all parameters about vaccines safety measures are well preserved? Let the barbarians speak out. Why there are adverse effects and adverse diseases cripple the patients who are already ill with every medicine the druggists administer? When creating newer diseases in an already ill cannot be avoided, where is the question if these drug lords curing the diseases?

You really are need of serious help. What pure juvenile drivel.
Speak out! How much more do you want, thousands of journals, billions a of pages of written text, endless TV radio programmes across the globe. TB, malaria and thousands of other conditions either cured or prevented. Millions across the globe busy researching for new better and more effective treatments. Only the blind, dumb and deaf could fail to notice.

Yes millions of these doctors, physios, nurses & other health care professionals ( who are regulated by their own professional bodies) and are apparently publishing thousands of research articles critically analysing the very treatments they provide & indeed often very critical. Yet this is all fraud. Thank God we have the holy warriors in the shape of drfazl and his three stooges who are standing tall against all this conspiracy and all for mere $2000. Boy isn our world so fortunate.

QuoteIf the claim of curing the small pox vaccine is true, why the barbarians cannot cure chicken pox, hepatitis, swine flu, HIV, common flu, typhoid, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, tuberculosis, malaria, chikunguniya etc, and are these not eradicated from the globe? Why this paradox? The answer to this is small pox is not eradicated as these drug lords claim with their crooked, distorted and cooked up statistics but as nature evolves elimination of some species and creation of newer species with newer more powerful diseases is the rule. And that is happening.

What chance have they compared to you first with homeopathy, single needle and now the prayer all these have been cured at stroke. Obviously these diseases do not exist in the Tamil region as millions there follow you and have been completely cured. Not sure why this spectacular example of disease free state has not captured every news media. Oh yes sorry forgot, the entire planet is involved in the conspiracy of mm

QuoteIt is well known to the world, the fraudulent practice of the MM drug-lords to hire the killers in white coat uniform to give deliberately false research reports and bribe the governments to accept the drugs to distribute among the people. It is for anybody to understand who the fraudsters are that maim, and butcher, and kill and squander the money in the name of medicine and surgery

.

Yes the entire world is. Fraud, except you and three disciples. You brave man I take my hat of to you.

QuoteAn information:

Vaccination is the stolen principle by the drug lords from the Homoeopathy Medical System, invented by Hahnemann. The principle of homeopathic cure is this: "Like diseases are cured by like diseases." MM principle of medicine is completely alien to this. What do you think about the robbers who having robbed mishandle a beautiful concept of homeopathy? Under the auspices of homeopathic physicians there are no fatal deaths or adverse reactions; but in the hands of robbers what havoc they cause to the suffering patients is beyond tolerance.

Thank you for this gem of information. No doubt you will now post evidence of huge numbers being cured. Remember the cousin of a friends friend of your disciple does not really constitute serious evidence (even by your standards).
By the way not sure what you understand by conventional medicine. It accepts anything which is PROVEN to be effective. Hence nothing is out of bounds.
Also the practitioners of medicine have no issues with accepting their limitations and acknowledging that their treatments can on occasions be harmful.
Obviously they have long way to go to catch up with you as you perfected cure for every disease known to mankind by a single needle. What I will say is that you are very selfish by not spreading these wonderfully simple cures for everything across the globe

Quote from: stillearning on September 16, 2013, 04:52:55 PM

You really are need of serious help. What pure juvenile drivel.

Your rage is outrageously crying foul; but do you know you belie not me but belie the Signs of Allah; and your plot against this is that either you understand but nevertheless maintain to the contrary, or fail to understand and say against my saying thus: I am curing the patients! No, it is Allah who cures if He accepts your prayer'.

6:33.  We know indeed that what they say certainly grieves you, but surely they do not call you a juvenile drivel; but the unjust reject the Signs of Allah.

QuoteSpeak out! How much more do you want, thousands of journals, billions a of pages of written text, endless TV radio programmes across the globe. TB, malaria and thousands of other conditions either cured or prevented. Millions across the globe busy researching for new better and more effective treatments. Only the blind, dumb and deaf could fail to notice.

To deny, divert and dodge one truth, 'MM cannot cure a single ordinary disease, say even a common flu' it goes around propagating the falsehood through symposiums and street plays; with its jargons and journals; through media purchasing their pages and airtime, constantly clouding the minds of the commons with its endless clouts. Have you ever made first hand attempt to see evidences for the MM claim if those diseases are really either cured or prevented?

You say millions of people across the globe are busy researching for newer, better, more effective treatments. This means what is available with you is old, rotten, worse, ineffective treatment. This is your own copyright statement. Using this treatment your claim you had eradicated all the above said diseases is by all means a strange nexus. If it is true what are you busily researching? Cheating and deceiving the people under their very noses? Do you still say the observant people who notice this blatant arrogance of the MM are blind, deaf and dumb?

Would you now say staying away from such chaos and mischief mongering MM and preserving God-given health by seeking the wisdom from Him is unholy and cry foul at them? Are your hearts sealed or is there a veil before your eyes or your hearing has hardened, and that you shout dumb so that voice of truth is subdued in your din?

9:32.  They desire to put out the Light of Allah in the din of their bandwagons, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His Light, though the unbelievers are averse.

41:26.  And those who disbelieve say: Do not listen to this Truth and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.

Stillearning,

Be aware and beware.
You are in denial or you just don't understand the truth.

Dr Fazl never claimed that he is a holy man, you named him so. Neither does he sport a beard or wear saffron or some other holy attire.

He has taught how to get cured by seeking God's help and turning to God alone for every need and is teaching many people for free too. There is no entrance fee for the weekly classes too. Many people who learnt from him are showing the path -God alone, to others too by GOD's grace.

Truth needs no advertisement. Truth can never be suppressed nor does God allow it to die.

None of your posts has any concrete answer or solution. Readers can see that for themselves.

Fearing God and being little humble will not harm you. In fact it may make you see light through darkness.

Your choice: you can continue to be arrogant and ignorant OR turn to God for guidance and understanding. If God wills and if you are humble you will see signs, evidence.

"modern medicine is not but Your trial by which You send astray whom You will and guide whom You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us and have mercy upon us; and You are the best of forgivers."
 
Gita

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 12:27:48 AM

Your rage is outrageously crying foul; but do you know you belie not me but belie the Signs of Allah; and your plot against this is that either you understand but nevertheless maintain to the contrary, or fail to understand and say against my saying thus: I am curing the patients! No, it is Allah who cures if He accepts your prayer'.

6:33.  We know indeed that what they say certainly grieves you, but surely they do not call you a juvenile drivel; but the unjust reject the Signs of Allah.

To deny, divert and dodge one truth, 'MM cannot cure a single ordinary disease, say even a common flu' it goes around propagating the falsehood through symposiums and street plays; with its jargons and journals; through media purchasing their pages and airtime, constantly clouding the minds of the commons with its endless clouts. Have you ever made first hand attempt to see evidences for the MM claim if those diseases are really either cured or prevented?

You say millions of people across the globe are busy researching for newer, better, more effective treatments. This means what is available with you is old, rotten, worse, ineffective treatment. This is your own copyright statement. Using this treatment your claim you had eradicated all the above said diseases is by all means a strange nexus. If it is true what are you busily researching? Cheating and deceiving the people under their very noses? Do you still say the observant people who notice this blatant arrogance of the MM are blind, deaf and dumb?

Would you now say staying away from such chaos and mischief mongering MM and preserving God-given health by seeking the wisdom from Him is unholy and cry foul at them? Are your hearts sealed or is there a veil before your eyes or your hearing has hardened, and that you shout dumb so that voice of truth is subdued in your din?

9:32.  They desire to put out the Light of Allah in the din of their bandwagons, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His Light, though the unbelievers are averse.

41:26.  And those who disbelieve say: Do not listen to this Truth and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.

Dear Drfazl,

You are RIGHT. God does not like Modern Medicine.
God Bless You.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/01/deadly-medicine-201101

http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html

http://www.deathbymodernmedicine.com/

http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/pharmaceutical_drug_damage.html

http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/death-by-medicine-is-leading-cause-of-death.html

http://www.medicinekillsmillions.com/

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/mar/15/health.medicineandhealth2

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/six-reasons-to-say-no-to-vaccination/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/27/vaccines-are-dangerous-says-the-government.aspx


http://www.drugwatch.com/dangerous-drugs.php

Quote6:33.  We know indeed that what they say certainly grieves you, but surely they do not call you a juvenile drivel; but the unjust reject the Signs of Allah.

Suppose it was only matter of time before you claimed (if you had not already done so) yourself a rasool.

QuoteQuote
Speak out! How much more do you want, thousands of journals, billions a of pages of written text, endless TV radio programmes across the globe. TB, malaria and thousands of other conditions either cured or prevented. Millions across the globe busy researching for new better and more effective treatments. Only the blind, dumb and deaf could fail to notice.

and such a factually laden and logical reply:

QuoteTo deny, divert and dodge one truth, 'MM cannot cure a single ordinary disease, say even a common flu' it goes around propagating the falsehood through symposiums and street plays; with its jargons and journals; through media purchasing their pages and airtime, constantly clouding the minds of the commons with its endless clouts. Have you ever made first hand attempt to see evidences for the MM claim if those diseases are really either cured or prevented?

Quote
You say millions of people across the globe are busy researching for newer, better, more effective treatments. This means what is available with you is old, rotten, worse, ineffective treatment. This is your own copyright statement. is treatment

Quoteyour claim you had eradicated all the above said diseases

[/b][/color] is by all means a strange nexus. If it is true what are you busily researching? Cheating and deceiving the people under their very noses? Do you still say the observant people who notice this blatant arrogance of the MM are blind, deaf and dumb?

As I don't know you it is difficult to decipher whether your intellect is seriously impaired or you are deliberately being dishonest. Can you point out for me where I have said all the diseases have been wiped out.
Just to clarify small pox does not = all the diseases ( interesting you did not comment on 300 million and the disease eradication. I suppose facts are v uncomfortable for you)

Anyhow let me simplify it for you:
Humans walked ran, learned to ride a horse, invented wheel, steam engine, motor car, plane and travelled to moon. All through wanting to improve. Also constantly researching to improve better and quicker means of transport. Again billions of pages of all kinds of texts devoted to this purpose so according to drfazl this proves that all the travel methods are rotten and outdated. Can you possibly see perhaps a teeny weeny comparison.

Wiselite. I bow to your superior reasoning and logic. Afraid way beyond my understanding.

Mr Bond. Hope you or any member of your family do not ever need what God does not like ( I suppose God has also told you about dislikes.)

Quote from: stillearning on September 17, 2013, 05:38:17 PM
Suppose it was only matter of time before you claimed (if you had not already done so) yourself a rasool.

So be ready 'For The Kill' as people like you have always been the FTKs of the prophets and messengers and all those who espouse the Truth following those messengers and their messages from Allah, for the truth stands between you and your pride. I am follower of the Truth in the message, the messengers brought. You now suggest to people, 'I am calling myself a rasool.' Is this the answer to my post? Any one who abides by Quran and Rasul is Rasul himself, right?

3:21.  As to those who deny the Signs of Allah and in defiance of right, slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty.


and such a factually laden and logical reply from James Bond.

This is by all means a strange nexus. If it is true what are you busily researching? Cheating and deceiving the people under their very noses? Do you still say the observant people who notice this blatant arrogance of the MM are blind, deaf and dumb?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/01/deadly-medicine-201101

http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html

http://www.deathbymodernmedicine.com/

http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/pharmaceutical_drug_damage.html

http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/death-by-medicine-is-leading-cause-of-death.html

http://www.medicinekillsmillions.com/

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/mar/15/health.medicineandhealth2

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/six-reasons-to-say-no-to-vaccination/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/27/vaccines-are-dangerous-says-the-government.aspx

http://www.drugwatch.com/dangerous-drugs.php

You can answer against the proof given by James Bond.

QuoteMr Bond. Hope you or any member of your family do not ever need what God does not like ( I suppose God has also told you about dislikes.)

Wow, what an answer!

QuoteAs I don't know you it is difficult to decipher whether your intellect is seriously impaired or you are deliberately being dishonest. Can you point out for me where I have said all the diseases have been wiped out.

Say so, then small pox was not eliminated because of the MM with your basic acquaintance. Start speaking the truth about the killer allopathy. You shall understand from the following ayat why you are unable to decipher with your impaired intellect.

7:146.  Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs: Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

QuoteWiselite. I bow to your superior reasoning and logic. Afraid way beyond my understanding.

Sanity returning. That is better.

Salaam,

Didn't God create isotopes, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and any other chemical elements as provisions to mankind so why is MM forbidden?


Regards,
Yuliana

Quote from: stillearning on September 17, 2013, 05:38:17 PM

Anyhow let me simplify it for you:

Humans walked ran, learned to ride a horse, invented wheel, steam engine, motor car, plane and travelled to moon. All through wanting to improve. Also constantly researching to improve better and quicker means of transport. Again billions of pages of all kinds of texts devoted to this purpose so according to drfazl this proves that all the travel methods are rotten and outdated. Can you possibly see perhaps a teeny weeny comparison.

You had cracked indeed the mystery of cure from all diseases:

-  walk and get cured of your myalgia
-  run and get cured of your knee joint pain
-  ride on horse and get cured of your back pain
-  sit on the rolling wheel and get cured if your giddiness
-  steam engine would relieve you of your breathlessness and asthma
-  motor car should motorise your heart and save you from cardiomyopathy
-  take a flight to save you from malaria and viruses
-  go to moon get relieved of all the diseases of the world

Thanks for deciphering and zeroing in.

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 10:32:41 PM
Salaam,

Didn't God create isotopes, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and any other chemical elements as provisions to mankind so why is MM forbidden?

peace dhb,

God did not create MM.

Quote from: DrGm on September 17, 2013, 11:05:05 PM


peace dhb,

God did not create MM.

I didn't say God created MM but aren't MM made of chemical elements such as carbon etc?

God also doesn't create computers and computers produce radiation so why are antiMM using computers anyway?

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 10:32:41 PM
Salaam,

Didn't God create isotopes, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and any other chemical elements as provisions to mankind so why is MM forbidden?

10:59 Say: "Have you seen what God has sent down to you from provisions, then you have made some of it forbidden and some lawful?" Say: "Did God authorize you, or do you invent lies about God?"

Regards,
Yuliana

Halal is Allah's provision:

Everything Allah created has life in it and provides the life-force to you. Air, water, light, Food is sent down on the earth from the heavens that create the life-force for us in the form of provisions. What he has sent down is a total mixture of life-force generating, creative with incalculable formless ingredients, which takes the shape of foods and provisions.

Haram is Man's invention of ingredients:

O men! Can you create an atom of air with its unlimited combinations of all its elements with its life-force intact? Can you invent a drop of water which has in it all its elemental mixture of life-force? Can you create a dust of sand wherefrom the provisions are cropped up for you? If you are given the elements such as carbon, hydrogen, oxygen or starch - can you create a potato using the air, water, sand and light you had invented or you would invent? 

The blood contains in it Allah created RBCs, WBCs, platelets. Why can't we drink it? Allah knows what is haram and what is halal. The pig has Allah created myofibrils yet its meat is forbidden.

Allah has all power and wisdom, and provides for your sustenance every readily available energy and life force to eliminate evil and to progress on with the strengthening of the life-force. Anything that does not create life force, is man invented and is haram. You can use your "isotopes, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and any other chemical elements" but put it to test if they have life-force in it and can create even a living unicellular organism. You cannot create life. Anything invented by man is lifeless and they are not God-send provisions and thus haram.

22:73.  O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides The Only Creator, ye rely, cannot create even a fly, if they all met together for the provision! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Futile is their knowledge; and worthless are they who lean on to it.

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 17, 2013, 11:09:44 PM
I didn't say God created MM but aren't MM made of chemical elements such as carbon etc?

God also doesn't create computers and computers produce radiation so why are antiMM using computers anyway?

As prophet Sulaiman used and made subservient even jinns and shaitans as disposables, you can use all these disposables and material people and such anti-God elements at your disposal for a mean price. This is halal. But if you think these elements are above the provisions of God, it is haram.

Dear Diamantinehoneybunch

                                          Have you ever tasted modern medicine? Now you see the taste of mm.
Allah should forgive me for a sin i have committed by using mm (so called radioisotope ). When i was practising MM i came across a patient named Rajagopal who is no more now. At the age of 35 he developed dysphagia( difficulty in swallowing). He was suffering for five years and he was investigated in our hospital and was found to be suffering from severe thyrotoxicosis i.e toxic nodules in the thyroid gland. There are 2 kind of treatment available 1- antithyroid drugs, 2- Radioisotope i.e giving radioactive iodine to destroy the overactive thyroid cells (I-131isotope).

We decided to give oral isotope treatment which will be taken by mouth. Patient gave consent for that.
All the symptoms disappeared within a month. Pt was completely relieved of dysphagia. But he didnot realise what danger was ahead for him in the future.

This person went to a gulf country in the same year for a job and worked there for 3 years. Returned back with the complaints of abdominal pain and abdominal distension. After investigation the kidney was totally shifted to the left side and there was a huge abdominal mass arising from behind the intestine and in front of the vertebra (retroperitoneal) region. That was compressing on the intestine and kidney. We planned for surgery and it was done by a leading surgeon and urologist was also assissting and totally 3 surgeons were doing the surgery but the tumour was inoperable. Tumor bled profusely while opening it and the patient died on the table. This affected me so much. This is one of the many reasons why i quit mm.

The cause for the tumour in this patient is the radiation effect due to the radioisotope used for treatment. He swallows the radioisotope, reaching intestines and gets absorbed in blood reaching the body cells causing cancer (Abnormal cells).

MM says that the radioisotope is organ specific and now its proved with this patient that its not true. It affects the whole body in general and all the organs.


Dr.R.Kanagasabapathy

Oh dear. How do you deal with hypocrites who claim that Mm is not specifically created by God (let's just turn a blind eye to planes, trains and million of other non God creations). However $$$$$$$ are perfect creation of the nature & no doubt our holy miracle worker will go eeny, meeny, miny mo and pick a Quranic Ayat and claim that $$$ are Mentioned in the Quran & also he should be paid at least 2000 for teaching individuals how to pray (although it started off as wanting to cure them)

Quote

QuoteAs I don't know you it is difficult to decipher whether your intellect is seriously impaired or you are deliberately being dishonest. Can you point out for me where I have said all the diseases have been wiped out.

And reply

QuoteSay so, then small pox was not eliminated because of the MM with your basic acquaintance. Start speaking the truth about the killer allopathy. You shall understand from the following ayat why you are unable to decipher with your impaired intellect

.

Most six years will understand that smallpox is a disease and if you add an s to the word disease at the end. It means more than one
I am sure one day you will grasp these points.
Also another clue which might help you to understand my post: all

Quote from: stillearning on September 18, 2013, 05:41:04 PM

Oh dear. let's just turn a blind eye to planes, trains and million of other non God creations. $$$$$$$ ...... eeny, meeny, miny mo and pick a Quranic Ayat and claim that $$$ are Mentioned in the Quran & also he should be paid at least 2000 for teaching individuals how to pray (although it started off as wanting to cure them)

Totally out of gear and running amok!

Now her ire had turned towards the ayats of Allah which says take away of their wealth a charitable portion and purify them in their souls and in their living  9:103. Why so much contempt on her face of denial? If she denies Allah's signs what else can she adhere to?

22:72.   And when Our clear communications are recited to them you will find denial on the face of those who disbelieve; they almost spring upon those who recite to them Our communications. Say: Shall I inform you of what is worse than this? The fire; Allah has promised it to those who disbelieve; and how evil the resort!

I know her fiery anger against Allah and His Quran would aggravate at this ayat, yet it is referred here perchance she fears the J Day, it might regain her lost sensibilities and set her on righteous course, God-willing!

QuoteNow her ire had turned towards the ayats of Allah which says take away of their wealth a charitable portion and purify them in their souls and in their living

As expected, take God's words completely out of context to justify lining your own pockets.

Anyway you seem to have problem discussing factual information so.
To keep matters simple lets try one issue at time:

          Smallpox that in the 19th century it killed hundreds of millions & for the past two decades (after the vaccination programme was declared complete) there have been no cases of this dreaded disease. Can we discuss this point and then we can discuss which ever point you raise

Quote from: stillearning on September 20, 2013, 12:01:05 PM
As expected, take God's words completely out of context to justify lining your own pockets.

Anyway you seem to have problem discussing factual information so.
To keep matters simple lets try one issue at time:

          Smallpox that in the 19th century it killed hundreds of millions & for the past two decades (after the vaccination programme was declared complete) there have been no cases of this dreaded disease. Can we discuss this point and then we can discuss which ever point you raise

This is the simple beginning and end of game by MM
http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/pharmaceutical_drug_damage.html

Please answer every word of the documented proof of MM frauds given in the above link
The medical historians of our century... agree that the decline of the epidemics which had wrought havoc in the Middle Ages was not due to the introduction of vaccination, but of hygiene, for they had diminished long before large-scale inoculations had begun..." Hans Ruesch, 'History of Medicine', Slaughter of the Innocent, CIVIS, 1991, p.194

Quote from: drfazl on September 20, 2013, 12:44:22 PM

This is the simple beginning and end of game by MM
http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/pharmaceutical_drug_damage.html

Please answer every word of the documented proof of MM frauds given in the above link
The medical historians of our century... agree that the decline of the epidemics which had wrought havoc in the Middle Ages was not due to the introduction of vaccination, but of hygiene, for they had diminished long before large-scale inoculations had begun..." Hans Ruesch, 'History of Medicine', Slaughter of the Innocent, CIVIS, 1991, p.194

Oops. Poor lady... RIP....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2338947/Pregnant-mother-32-died-trainee-surgeons-removed-OVARY-appendix.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2338947/Pregnant-mother-32-died-trainee-surgeons-removed-OVARY-appendix.html)

Quote from: drfazl on September 20, 2013, 12:44:22 PM

This is the simple beginning and end of game by MM
http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/pharmaceutical_drug_damage.html

Please answer every word of the documented proof of MM frauds given in the above link
The medical historians of our century... agree that the decline of the epidemics which had wrought havoc in the Middle Ages was not due to the introduction of vaccination, but of hygiene, for they had diminished long before large-scale inoculations had begun..." Hans Ruesch, 'History of Medicine', Slaughter of the Innocent, CIVIS, 1991, p.194

Truth By Doctor
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161869/Top-doctors-chilling-claim-The-NHS-kills-130-000-elderly-patients-year.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161869/Top-doctors-chilling-claim-The-NHS-kills-130-000-elderly-patients-year.html)

Seems my earlier reply was deleted v quickly will try again

Quote
Please answer every word of the documented proof of MM frauds given in the above link
The medical historians of our century... agree that the decline of the epidemics which had wrought havoc in the Middle Ages was not due to the introduction of vaccination, but of hygiene, for they had diminished long before large-scale inoculations had begun..

Not sure what your point is.
Let me simplify it for you once again. Orthodox medicine is not one particular discipline but thousands of different ones which are effective or appear promising. Most Western hospitals even have priests, rabi's and imams.
What a strange comment. You trying to hijack hygiene as something you guys advocate only. One of the major factor recognised by orthodox medicine is hygiene. Even in most basic of doctors consulting rooms first thing usually are the hand washing facilities. Check out any hospital, no matter how basic, and you will see the facilities dedicated to washing and notice how many individuals are dedicated to keeping the place clean.
99.99999% of known facts, figures, statistics, scientists, publications state that smallpox was completely eliminated by the smallpox vaccination. Not sure which reference to give you, there literally thousands if not millions. If you think that 99.999% of the scientific community is involved in some kind of bizarre fraud then factual evidence will be helpful.

However you have not directly answered the question but given your vague link:

Quote." Hans Ruesch, 'History of Medicine', Slaughter of the Innocent, CIVIS, 1991, p.194

As my question was about smallpox. Can you tell me where in the above (simple copy and paste will do) proves that smallpox was not completely eliminated by the vaccine.

Quote from: stillearning on September 22, 2013, 04:20:07 PM

Not sure what your point is.

You are very much sure of what I write. See your answer below which simplifies to you that allopathy is the combination of all humbugs in the world and MM has no damn thing, medicines and drugs wise to do any thing with the patients. And thanks for so simply understanding after a long, long time.

QuoteLet me simplify it for you once again. Orthodox medicine
is not one particular discipline but thousands of different ones which are effective or appear promising. Most Western hospitals even have priests, rabi's and imams.
What a strange comment. You trying to hijack hygiene as something you guys advocate only. One of the major factor recognised by orthodox medicine is hygiene. Even in most basic of doctors consulting rooms first thing usually are the hand washing facilities. Check out any hospital, no matter how basic, and you will see the facilities dedicated to washing and notice how many individuals are dedicated to keeping the place clean.

There is confusion and mischief in your quote below to what you have said above: do not read the cooked up and distorted truth of the scientists, in the pay rolls of the drug lords who have purchased the publications for handsome bribes. Your above quote is perfectly 99.99999% correct.

Quote99.99999% of known facts, figures, statistics, scientists, publications state that smallpox was completely eliminated by the smallpox vaccination. Not sure which reference to give you, there literally thousands if not millions. If you think that 99.999% of the scientific community is involved in some kind of bizarre fraud then factual evidence will be helpful.

What is fact? And what is evidence? And what is factual evidence? All from in-camera manipulated propaganda plots to claim ownership of what is hijacked?

Allopathy has no original or even borrowed knowledge on the principle of vaccinations. Tell me the principle of vaccination before claiming your vaccination programme eradicated the disease, smallpox. If you have subject to talk, talk the principle behind the vaccination and you will know for sure it is not MM medicine principle. Never again keep saying publications, journals, worthless scientists, and so on. Discuss the subject, vaccination to prove your worth.

QuoteAs my question was about smallpox. Can you tell me where in the above (simple copy and paste will do) proves that smallpox was not completely eliminated by the vaccine.

I do not want to beat around; yes it is about smallpox, its vaccine we shall discuss. Do not side track and hide behind the frauds' propaganda machinations such as scientists, journals etc.

What is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is.  Then first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

Let me set the ball rolling:

Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

When did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

When did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

See below how the doctrine originally invented by Hahnemann was hijacked by Edward Jenner in the same year and got it publicised to earn the name as if it was him who invented it.

The smallpox vaccine was the first successful vaccine to be developed. The process of vaccination was first publicised by Edward Jenner in 1796, who acted upon his observation that milkmaids who caught the cowpox virus did not catch smallpox. Before widespread vaccination, mortality rates in individuals with smallpox were high?  and the story thus was spread until yesterday. 

Let us discuss one issue at a time & promise will discuss one by one  including homeopathy, humbug literature ( as you describe it etc). Once we have concluded the current topic will be happy to discuss the point of your choosing.

However for now your quote:

Quote
The smallpox vaccine was the first successful vaccine to be developed. The process of vaccination was first publicised by Edward Jenner in 1796, who acted upon his observation that milkmaids who caught the cowpox virus did not catch smallpox. Before widespread vaccination, mortality rates in individuals with smallpox were high?  and the story thus was spread until yesterday

. 

Am I correct to assume, from your quote above, that small pox vaccine has eliminated mortality caused by small pox. The details of who was responsible for vaccine we can discuss later.

                               
                                     "Even Edward jenner fell into the hands of drug lords"

                   World knows that Edward jenner discovered small pox vaccine. Below is an article extract from a medical journal called 'Historia medicinae' which claims that Edward jenner accepted bribe from the parliament and physicians for propagating his theory of protection from smallpox through vaccine.

"Biggs was a prominent campaigner in Leicester, what was to become an anti-vaccination stronghold, and dismissed of the ?Protection Theory? conferred by smallpox vaccination as a ?loudly-vaunted assertion which secured Jenner ?30,000 of the public money ? in the shape of two grants from Parliament of ?10,000 and ?20,000?.[xxii] The vested interests of physicians and politicians alike were central to bringing Jenner into disrepute. Paul on the other hand sought primarily to question the statistics being championed by the pro-vaccinationists by highlighting what he described as the ?classification difficulty?, with ?false unvaccinated? death rates in babies dying allegedly after vaccination subsequently being classed as ?unvaccinated.?[xxiii] Paul advocated that ?something septic was introduced?, something unhygienic, leading to the ?accidents of vaccination?, linking to the debate surrounding sanitation versus vaccination as the root cause for diminishing cases of smallpox."

Quote
However for now your quote:

Quote
The smallpox vaccine was the first successful vaccine to be developed. The process of vaccination was first publicised by Edward Jenner in 1796, who acted upon his observation that milkmaids who caught the cowpox virus did not catch smallpox. Before widespread vaccination, mortality rates in individuals with smallpox were high?  and the story thus was spread until yesterday
. 

Am I correct to assume, from your quote above, that small pox vaccine has eliminated mortality caused by small pox. The details of who was responsible for vaccine we can discuss later.

Simple response to the above please

Quote from: stillearning on September 23, 2013, 02:32:22 PM
Let us discuss one issue at a time & promise will discuss one by one  including homeopathy, humbug literature ( as you describe it etc). Once we have concluded the current topic will be happy to discuss the point of your choosing.

esponsible for vaccine we can discuss later.

Are you ready for it at least now?

I do not want to beat around; yes it is about smallpox, its vaccine we shall discuss. Do not side track and hide behind the frauds' propaganda machinations such as scientists, journals etc.

What is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is.  Then first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

Let me set the ball rolling:

Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

When did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

I know you will never answer or dare get into the topic at all.

Quote from: dr.rks on September 18, 2013, 02:31:51 AM
Dear Diamantinehoneybunch

                                          Have you ever tasted modern medicine?

Yes.
Some tastes really sweet. Some tastes bitter. Some even tastes sour like orange. Some tastes like mentos. ;D

Quote
Now you see the taste of mm.

Nay, we can't see the taste but we can taste the taste by using our tongue ;D

Quote
Allah should forgive me for a sin i have committed by using mm (so called radioisotope ).

Sin?
It is like saying "Allah should forgive me a sin I have committed by using computers because they are unnatural and produce radiations. I should use papyrus to write letters to my fellow God alone muslims instead of communicating with them on Free-minds by using computers."

QuoteWhen i was practising MM i came across a patient named Rajagopal who is no more now. At the age of 35 he developed dysphagia( difficulty in swallowing). He was suffering for five years and he was investigated in our hospital and was found to be suffering from severe thyrotoxicosis i.e toxic nodules in the thyroid gland. There are 2 kind of treatment available 1- antithyroid drugs, 2- Radioisotope i.e giving radioactive iodine to destroy the overactive thyroid cells (I-131isotope).

We decided to give oral isotope treatment which will be taken by mouth. Patient gave consent for that.
All the symptoms disappeared within a month. Pt was completely relieved of dysphagia. But he didnot realise what danger was ahead for him in the future.

This person went to a gulf country in the same year for a job and worked there for 3 years. Returned back with the complaints of abdominal pain and abdominal distension. After investigation the kidney was totally shifted to the left side and there was a huge abdominal mass arising from behind the intestine and in front of the vertebra (retroperitoneal) region. That was compressing on the intestine and kidney. We planned for surgery and it was done by a leading surgeon and urologist was also assissting and totally 3 surgeons were doing the surgery but the tumour was inoperable. Tumor bled profusely while opening it and the patient died on the table. This affected me so much. This is one of the many reasons why i quit mm.

The cause for the tumour in this patient is the radiation effect due to the radioisotope used for treatment. He swallows the radioisotope, reaching intestines and gets absorbed in blood reaching the body cells causing cancer (Abnormal cells).

MM says that the radioisotope is organ specific and now its proved with this patient that its not true. It affects the whole body in general and all the organs.


Dr.R.Kanagasabapathy

You generalize all the MMs to be dangerous.
Why can't people use God-given chemical elements to make MMs?

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 24, 2013, 09:30:35 PM
Nay, we can't see the taste but we can taste the taste by using our tongue ;D

So childish...,For example,Havent you 'tasted' defeat or victory in your whole life ?

You have no substance to debate , so you are ignored.

Quote from: dr.rks on September 25, 2013, 12:49:54 AM

So childish...,For example,Havent you 'tasted' defeat or victory in your whole life ?

You have no substance to debate , so you are ignored.

Ignoring childish behaviour certainly preserves your behaviour in keeping with good taste and propriety of a forum.

25:63.   For, true servants of the Most Gracious are they who behave gently on earth, and who, whenever the childish address them, reply with peace.

Quote from: dr.rks on September 25, 2013, 12:49:54 AM
So childish...,For example,Havent you 'tasted' defeat or victory in your whole life ?

You have no substance to debate , so you are ignored.

I didn't debate either.
You serious people don't understand humor. You take everything seriously. You say this is haraam, that is haraam, those are haraam, these are haraam et cetera et cetera et cetera et cetera et cetera for nothing and then attribute all these ridiculous prohibitions to God by saying that "MM is haraam because it causes illness, eternal sufferings etc".

You also did not reply to my other simple questions.

Just because you and your cohorts write a lot with 'mind-blowing' words and statements, doesn't mean you are right with your anti modern medicines ideology either.

My mother gave birth to me through C-section because she waited too long for giving birth to me while undergoing the pain. Before giving birth to me through C-section, my mom also wanted to give birth to me by using natural birth method but since my mom had waited too long with the pain she had, she had to undergo Caesarean section. Without this C-section, I would had died because of breathing difficulties in my mom's womb.

What I have noticed is you and your cohorts only know how to write and give evidences but then when other people who don't agree with you and criticize your writings, you reply to them angrily.

If MMs are haraam because they are dangerous and 'modern', then vehicles such as cars are also haraam because they are modern and unnatural, aren't they? Let's ride horses!

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 24, 2013, 09:30:35 PM
Yes.
Some tastes really sweet. Some tastes bitter. Some even tastes sour like orange. Some tastes like mentos. ;D
Nay, we can't see the taste but we can taste the taste by using our tongue ;D
Sin?

10:39 Nay, they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge Fallacies of MM they cannot compass, even before the elucidation Torment at the end in ICU'S thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong! So many people walk in to the hospital and stretched out as dead ripping them  to the extent of bankruptcy

2:258  Have you not noted him who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while Allah had given him a kingship? Abraham said: ?My Lord is the One who gives life and death,? he Ignorant MM said: ?I bring life and death.? Abraham said: ?God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west.? The one who rejected was baffled! And God does not guide the wicked people.

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 24, 2013, 09:30:35 PMIt is like saying "Allah should forgive me a sin I have committed by using computers because they are unnatural and produce radiations. I should use papyrus to write letters to my fellow God alone muslims instead of communicating with them on Free-minds by using computers."
You generalize all the MMs to be dangerous.
Why can't people use God-given chemical elements to make MMs?

DrFazl has earlier clearly explained to you in Reply #54 & #55 in this same thread

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605462.50

QuoteYou serious people don't understand humor. You take everything seriously.

53:60  And you are laughing, while you should be crying?

9:82  Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they have earned.

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM

Halal is Allah's provision:

So are Carbons.

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
Everything Allah created has life in it and provides the life-force to you. Air, water, light, Food is sent down on the earth from the heavens that create the life-force for us in the form of provisions. What he has sent down is a total mixture of life-force generating, creative with incalculable formless ingredients, which takes the shape of foods and provisions.

Okay I agree with this.

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
Haram is Man's invention of ingredients:

It is like saying that computers are haraam because they are made of elements such as silica, iron, glass, zinc, steel, gold, bauxite etc [different computers are made of different materials].

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
O men! Can you create an atom of air with its unlimited combinations of all its elements with its life-force intact? Can you invent a drop of water which has in it all its elemental mixture of life-force? Can you create a dust of sand wherefrom the provisions are cropped up for you? If you are given the elements such as carbon, hydrogen, oxygen or starch - can you create a potato using the air, water, sand and light you had invented or you would invent? 

Even detergents are haraam because they are man-made invention. Detergents are not biodegradable so it can cause the death of aquatic organisms in river if detergents flow into it.
:yeah:

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
The blood contains in it Allah created RBCs, WBCs, platelets. Why can't we drink it? Allah knows what is haram and what is halal. The pig has Allah created myofibrils yet its meat is forbidden.

You use this argument to prove that all types of medicines are haraam. I don't think all the medicines chemical elements are taken from vomit, drain, spoilt food, pig's blood, camel's blood.

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
Allah has all power and wisdom, and provides for your sustenance every readily available energy and life force to eliminate evil and to progress on with the strengthening of the life-force. Anything that does not create life force, is man invented and is haram. You can use your "isotopes, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and any other chemical elements" but put it to test if they have life-force in it and can create even a living unicellular organism. You cannot create life. Anything invented by man is lifeless and they are not God-send provisions and thus haram.

As far as I know the intentions of most MM manufacturers, inventors etc just make MMs to heal diseases, relieve pain, heal wounds etc. Not to create lives. I agree 100% that cloning of human beings is haraam.
RED: Computers, Cars, Handbags and shoes made of leathers are also haraam.   :yeah: :peace:

Quote from: drfazl on September 17, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
22:73.  O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides The Only Creator, ye rely, cannot create even a fly, if they all met together for the provision! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Futile is their knowledge; and worthless are they who lean on to it.

MM makers don't create lives. They create medicines.
Anyway thanks for this verse.

Quote from: newmoon on September 25, 2013, 02:16:19 AM


53:60  And you are laughing, while you should be crying?

9:82  Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they have earned.

It is funny how serious people like newmoon pick and choose verses of Qur'an out of context and throw them at people who disagree with them.

53:55   So which powers of your Lord do you doubt?
53:56   This is a warning like the old warnings.
53:57   That which is inevitable draws near.
53:58   None besides God can unveil it.
53:59   Are you surprised by this narrative?
53:60   And you are laughing, while you should be crying?

9:81   Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is much hotter," if they could only understand.
9:82   Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they have earned.
9:83   So, if God sends you back to a group of them, and they ask your permission to come with you, then say: "You will not come with me ever; nor will you fight any enemy with me. You had accepted staying behind the first time, so stay with those who remain behind."

What do the 2 verses you posted have to do with humor?

MM makers do not create life; so they cause diseases and death. Their tool is medicines.

Allah creates life; and so purifies and enlivens the life-force. His provision is food.

MM puts restrictions on food intake while liberally allowing medicines; it is haram, for

Allah puts end to medicines; ordains feeding in the Name of the Provider, the Most Pure.

Quote from: drfazl on September 25, 2013, 03:09:38 AM

MM makers do not create life; so they cause diseases and death. Their tool is medicines.

Allah creates life; and so purifies and enlivens the life-force. His provision is food.

MM puts restrictions on food intake while liberally allowing medicines; it is haram, for

Allah puts end to medicines; ordains feeding in the Name of the Provider, the Most Pure.

Isn't death also caused by God?
So what about computers?
Why do you expect us to live like ancient times?

Quote53:55   So which powers of your Lord do you doubt?

Do you doubt Allah is Needless and Self-Sufficient? And He needs nothing of your medical know-how or your modern medical means to cure you from your illnesses and misery you brought upon yourselves with those knowledge? Do not you see you are already suffering from the forbidden miseries through them all? So are you still proud before your God?

Quote53:56   This is a warning like the old warnings.

This is a warning as much the same as to those who were given by MM, the suffering-to-death due to the denial of the Almighty Power.

Quote53:57   That which is inevitable draws near.

If only they have humility and fear for their God, they would see the punishing torment drawing nigh.

Quote53:58   None besides God can unveil it.

They shall never be able to see it, until Allah lifts the veil in front of their eyes and makes the punishing torment come before them of a sudden. They would not be given then a respite; nor would they receive any help.

Quote53:59   Are you surprised by this narrative?

Lo! This warning brings surprise to them!

Quote53:60   And you are laughing, while you should be crying?

They ridicule and make fun of such warnings; soon their mocking should encompass them for their final cry. 21:15.  And that cry of theirs shall not cease until We cause them to become like a field mown down, still and silent as ashes.

Irrelevant

Quran and its ayats are irrelevant for those who deny Allah's Signs therein. Everything is recorded; let them cry for what they earn and become humble for a while at least.

Quote from: drfazl on September 25, 2013, 04:01:14 AM

Quran and its ayats are irrelevant for those who deny Allah's Signs therein. Everything is recorded; let them cry for what they earn and become humble for a while at least.

I meant the verses that you shared are irrelevant to my inquiries.

Computers are: man-made invention, produce radiations that can cause myopia, headache, unnatural. So computers are haraam right?

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 25, 2013, 01:34:09 AM
..My mother gave birth to me through C-section because she waited too long for giving birth to me while undergoing the pain. Before giving birth to me through C-section, my mom also wanted to give birth to me by using natural birth method but since my mom had waited too long with the pain she had, she had to undergo Caesarean section. Without this C-section, I would had died because of breathing difficulties in my mom's womb..

peace,

my first girl child was c-section (1999).  the doctor who attended her told me that the fetus not in position (foot presentation-legs coming first instead of head).  they asked my confirmation for going for c-section.  i asked her is there any other alternative without c-section?  i got negative reply.

in 2005, i attended a free public meeting arranged by drfazl.  in the meeting he was addressing about healthcare with God's help.  i was not a believer then.  healthcare interested me, at the same time his talk about God also created an eagerness in me.  his introduction to God is not the same as any religious men/saint/godman/holyman.    his talk is direct application to my life or anyone's life who attended the meeting.

at that point of time, what i understood from the meeting is in nature or in God's creation there is no flaw.  there is no intervention of any kind is required for me to keep me healthy.  after the meeting i was collecting and reading all the books/magazines written by drfazl.  i started slowly living without any sort of medical help.  every month i attended drfazl's public meeting.

end of the year, my wife was expecting second delivery.  right from the day she told me pregnant, i told her not to take any medicine or do any checkup.  i gave her to read all the books written by drfazl, related to health and how to seek God and asked her to pray God for a pleasant delivery.

on the day of delivery, 4.30 am she woke me up and said amniotic sac ruptured.  i said do not panic, pray for patience.  i called a nearby nurse, she examined and said, "it takes time.  if u fear get admit in a hospital, the first is a c-section.  no fear, then wait i will return from my duty around noon."  she came around noon and again examined and said the fetus is foot presentation.  we have to admit in a hospital.  i said don't worry, we need not seek hospital.  i called drfazl the first time over phone, i havn't spoken to him earlier.  i told him, "i'm attending your meeting regularly, my wife is expecting, i wish my delivery at my home.  she is foot presenting, no pain since morning."  he replied, pray your Lord and be patience, call me after 4 pm if required.

the moment i cut the phone, i saw my wife feeling the pain.  the pain gave strength to the nurse who is otherwise disturbed because of the foot presentation.  the nurse informed me, "now i'm relieved, if there is natural pain then the delivery is sure natural (in hospitals they induce pain).  i only counseled my wife to be in patience and remember God's words.  remembering God's words gives us peace of mind.  she gave birth to a girl hip/foot presenting around 4.30 pm in my home.  the amniotic fluid was pouring from 4.30 am to 4.30 pm.  my girl was breathing normally (normally doctors here scare people that less amniotic fluid will cause breathing problems in fetus, so go for emergency c-section).

my third boy child's delivery at home was even more easier.  by seeing her face, i understood it is delivery time.  my child was getting delivered foot presentation, the delivery stopped after hip came out.  head, shoulder and hands yet to come out.  there is no movement for few minutes.  my wife was looking at me, i told her just stand up and squat.  i do not want to intervene and pull the child out.  she got.. up, walked two steps and squatted.  within few seconds, his shoulder, hands and head came out to my palms.  my son was not breathing, blood in his face and head.  i was holding in my palms, me and my wife still squatting was watching the child.  she whispered, he is not breathing.  i said, "let us wait, our Lord has brought us to this point, let us see further."  after a few more minutes, there was a gentle gasp.  my son breathed, now he is 4+years.

peace.

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 25, 2013, 02:40:02 AM
It is funny how serious people like newmoon pick and choose verses of Qur'an out of context and throw them at people who disagree with them.

What do the 2 verses you posted have to do with humor?

9:81   Those who have remained are happy with their position Equating Doctors as SAVIOURS of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize Believe God Alone   in the heat Torment." Say: "The fire Torment of Hell ICU's at Hospital is much hotter," if they could only understand.

9:82   Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they have earned.

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 25, 2013, 04:53:10 AM
I meant the verses that you shared are irrelevant to my inquiries.

Computers are: man-made invention, produce radiations that can cause myopia, headache, unnatural. So computers are haraam right?

Peace dbh

In a way I felt good to see a 17 year old girl following Quran Alone rejecting Hadiths down to the core. But your experience with health care, you have to go a long way in terms of reality. With more than 30 years of experience ,it is the duty of God Fearing humans like DrFazl and Dr rks to bring about the Truth of Health Care for the betterment of the human kind.

Seek protection and help from the ONLY SAVIOUR besides the specialist human saviours, for you to forsee the Truth without suffering for the days to come.

Any human knowledge we are enjoying does more harm than good , but the veil of pride sees the other way. In a way all Human knowledges are disguised Hadiths. So be aware seeking protection while using the human knowledge , until such time we are elevated to imbibe God given Wisdom for a suffering free life.

BalaChandran

Quote from: newmoon on September 25, 2013, 05:14:25 AM


9:81   Those who have remained are happy with their position Equating Doctors as SAVIOURS of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize Believe God Alone   in the heat Torment." Say: "The fire Torment of Hell ICU's at Hospital is much hotter," if they could only understand.

9:82   Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they have earned.

Cool.

9:81   Those who have remained are happy with their position Equating DR FAZL as SAVIOURS of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize Believe God Alone   in the heat Torment." Say: "The fire Torment of Hell is much hotter," if they could only understand.

Poor little girl, GOD Willing you are hell bent to learn that too  by suffering

For you it is your way, and for me mine.

Peace

BalaChandran

The question was. Will repeat again

QuoteAm I correct to assume, from your quote above, that small pox vaccine has eliminated mortality caused by small pox. The details of who was responsible for vaccine we can discuss later.

[/b][/color]

Your answer:

Quote

Are you ready for it at least now?

I do not want to beat around; yes it is about smallpox, its vaccine we shall discuss. Do not side track and hide behind the frauds' propaganda machinations such as scientists, journals etc.

Quote
What is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is.  Then first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

Let me set the ball rolling:

Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

When did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

Can you tell me where you have answered the simple question Was smallpox vaccine responsible for completely eliminating smallpox
A simple YES or NO will do.

QuoteI know you will never answer or dare get into the topic at all.

What is that you want an answer to or which topic you want discussing.
Let us conclude the smallpox vaccine effectiveness first. Not who discovered it (can make that as a subsequent point if you wish)

QuoteComputers are: man-made invention, produce radiations that can cause myopia, headache, unnatural. So computers are haraam right?

[/b]

V simple point and v simple question but not a single word, over two pages, to even attempt to answer.

Quote from: diamantinehoneybunch on September 25, 2013, 04:53:10 AM

I meant the verses that you shared are irrelevant to my inquiries.

Computers are: man-made invention, produce radiations that can cause myopia, headache, unnatural. So computers are haraam right?

Haram means the evil that which you would not like to experience for life, as life-sentence. Allah commands us to say, "Save us from all men's evils". Would you like to suffer those symptoms and more for life? If yes, then Allah says, "We have not wronged them; they wronged their souls by seeking what is haram for them, all with pride; and Allah does not love those who are proud."

Now you can decide what is haram? And the choice is yours. Nobody stops you. I withheld answering because I thought you would understand yourself. But you never did.

Quote from: stillearning on September 25, 2013, 09:34:16 AM
The question was. Will repeat again onsible for completely eliminating smallpox[/b]
A simple YES or NO will do.

What is that you want an answer to or which topic you want discussing.
Let us conclude the smallpox vaccine effectiveness first. Not who discovered it (can make that as a subsequent point if you wish)

No. This answer is there in such ampleness page after page with clear evidences, from so many people and you do not get it. Now let me answer you in simple one word down to earth terminology: No! The frauds MM have nothing to do with smallpox elimination. No is the answer.

Now, if you have anything left as truth behind your claim

QuoteWhat is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is.  Then first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

Let me set the ball rolling:

Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

When did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

I am awaiting you; and will bear two more pages of your dead silence before you barge in again to ask the same question.

Was small pox vaccine responsible for eliminating smallpox

& the answer

QuoteNo is the answer

Good at least an answer in the midst of usual rants (will discuss this in detail but as promised will deal with your question(s) first)

So your query

QuoteQuote
What is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is. 

A question
And in the same breath

QuoteThen first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

Are you asking a question or giving me the answer or are you trying to extract a confession!
Anyhow lets us just put it down to your usual lack of understanding of what you write. Maybe brain needs to engage before attacking the key board

Quote
Let me set the ball rolling:

Ok

Quote

Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

When did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

I am awaiting you; and will bear two more pages of your dead silence before you barge in again to ask the same question

.

So your are saying, assumption on my part - as you post is not very clear, that smallpox vaccine principle was stolen from Hahneman by Jenner & I am happy to be corrected if that is a wrong assumption.

QuoteWhen did you develop the principle? So based on which principle, are you boasting today?

Also I assume that your question refers to vaccine and not the entire orthodox medicine (otherwise we will be discussing this topic for thousands of pages and barely get started).
Therefore as you have already stated that smallpox vaccine does not work. Does this imply that Hahneman principle was wrong and Jenner stole a dud technique. If the whole vaccine principle is a non functional then not much to boast about its development or principle then. So according to you assertion Hahneman's principle was pretty rubbish.

Quote from: stillearning on September 25, 2013, 11:39:45 AM
Was small pox vaccine responsible for eliminating smallpox

& the answer

Good at least an answer in the midst of usual rants (will discuss this in detail but as promised will deal with your question(s) first)

So your query



A question
And in the same breath

Are you asking a question or giving me the answer or are you trying to extract a confession!
Anyhow lets us just put it down to your usual lack of understanding of what you write. Maybe brain needs to engage before attacking the key board



Ok.

So your are saying, assumption on my part - as you post is not very clear, that smallpox vaccine principle was stolen from Hahneman by Jenner & I am happy to be corrected if that is a wrong assumption.

Also I assume that your question refers to vaccine and not the entire orthodox medicine (otherwise we will be discussing this topic for thousands of pages and barely get started).
Therefore as you have already stated that smallpox vaccine does not work. Does this imply that Hahneman principle was wrong and Jenner stole a dud technique. If the whole vaccine principle is a non functional then not much to boast about its development or principle then. So according to you assertion Hahneman's principle was pretty rubbish.

What is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is.

If you cannot: Then first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

QuoteWhat is vaccine? And refer from your medical and pharmaceutical books whence you got to know of this principle and say what the principle of vaccine is.

If you cannot: Then first admit it was not allopathic principle. But brazenly stolen truth by the drug lords from homeopathy, invented by Hahnemann.

You have already stated that smallpox vaccine did not work and then state that the principle was stolen from your Lord Hahnemann.
Let us for a moment accept your theory that Jenner stole Hahnemann's vaccine principle. The fact (according to you) the vaccine did not work means that according to drfazl Hahnemann's principle was useless.

Quote from: stillearning on September 25, 2013, 03:47:18 PM

You have already stated that smallpox vaccine did not work and then state that the principle was stolen from your Lord Hahnemann.
Let us for a moment accept your theory that Jenner stole Hahnemann's vaccine principle. The fact (according to you) the vaccine did not work means that according to drfazl Hahnemann's principle was useless.

It is them fraudsters that maintain and say, "We cured; we eradicated; we eliminated small pox; after our vaccine inoculation programme" and not me. So it should not matter to you what I stated. Even if by all comprehensive understanding any one watching her can easily identify her ignorance behind her mask or pose of intelligence, she still has time to save her face. Let her answer: What is vaccine? What is the principle of vaccine? Show references from your pharmacopeia to prove it is MM fraudsters' original invention.

The entire forum is seeing and hearing her utter ignorance about the principle of vaccine. I assure she has no substance and she can never discuss this issue. It is the MM that she believed had let her down so miserably. Bad luck for having believed in worthless fraudulent MM.

Homeopathy became a viable alternative to fraud MM 250 years since, and still going strong with its vaccine principle. People choose homeopathy despite having been disillusioned and cheated and squandered by allopathy and left bankrupt and exhausting them of all their health and to an almost complete deprivation in every way, lead a comparatively comfortable life in homeopathy. Thanks to the original founder of vaccine truth, putting the fraudulent gangsters at bay. They are unable to steal the original intelligence since it is non-material power. Even today unable to master "Like cures Like" principle of homeopathy, the fraud MM smears on it all sorts of demeaning anecdotes such as 'occult science; pseudo science; suggestive science; placebo science' etc. l

Let us remind us what Allah says about these:

10:39.   Nay, they reject answering that of which they have no comprehensive knowledge, and the truth of it has not come to them yet; even thus did those before them reject the truth; see then what was the end of the unjust.

It is evident now she has nothing in her brains to exchange or debate or discuss but posing to be one capable of, is her face-saving deliberation; if better sense prevails, I should stay away from her and her coterie for good. They are drowned in their contumacy. If I still persist with them I will become of them slipping down from wisdom. Here is Allah's warning:

6:68.   And when you see those who enter into false discourses about the evident Truth, withdraw from them until they enter into right course, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people.

dr.rks was right when he ignored her for good.

"Bid her bye, to abide by Allah"

Apart from individual fraudsters claiming homeopathy has any use what so ever.
It has NEVER been shown to be any better than placebo.
Fazl whilst you may escape justice in this world ( although I have a feeling you will pay for your frauds in this world sooner or later) you will not escape the ultimate justice.

Savage_Carrot,

Your retort should have been directed at your friend for reasons below; I think you had misjudged and have wrongly directed your post to me.

Quote from: stillearning on September 04, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Aoa
you can simply continue to rips people, sorry cure them, by praying for them for a tidy sum of 2000 USD.

This is the first unnecessary personal remark your friend SL made; does she have any evidence to this? While I was openly sharing my ideas on and discussing the medical system; why she is obsessed with $2000, in a discussion if she has any subject to defend her medicine? She had not defended the subject with content except that she talked about statistics.

Quote from: stillearning on September 04, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Aoa

Don't worry many people get delusional and think they know about a subject of which they have no clue. Simple solution just take a sip of water, lye down and say to yourself there is nothing wrong with me and close your eyes. Hopefully these delusions of medical knowledge, human anatomy, physiology etc will go away & you can simply continue to rips people, sorry cure them, by praying for them for a tidy sum of 2000 USD.

Is there any assertion here from SL with her subject except tone of ridicule and dismissal even going to the extent of ridiculing seeking help and praying for cure and believing in God? While the entire population believe in God is it not that she passes judgement on the world populace as delusional people ? Did she spare even God? If she is not a believer in God that is her privilege to be so; I never said a word on her disbelief. Because ti is between God and her.

Quote from: stillearning on September 05, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
Wiselite I am responding to you not because you will have the slightest understanding of anything; Ah! You gutsy warrior. However Your senseless post

Sarcasm is demeaning and mischief and worse than killing or open rebuke. You overlook her. There is no humility to even doubt if she had something wrong in her comprehension ability.

QuoteThere are hundreds and thousands of these fraudsters in the Indian subcontinent

Is this discussion to insinuate me with the fraudsters? Have I anywhere tried to sell me in this forum; I was sharing the truth of some discipline which subject most might be unaware of. And every subject will have some substance to ponder and reflect that would induce one to think that would make them feel the revelation of truth and I had not aired out the statistics. Believing in God alone means they are all fraudsters? And I am one among the hundreds and thousands of fraudsters? Does she have evidence or one proof ? And statistics to prove this I am one among them? Were you deaf or turn a deaf ear to or turn a blind eye towards your friend? This is evidence if I call you deaf; you cannot claim I am insulting you.

QuoteReally you come from country where millions live in dreadful poverty & disease. if your Guru is so capable why does he not free them from poverty & disease by simply praying for them.

Did I say I am Guru any where? Or is it an assumption or casual sarcasm of your friend's habitual behaviour? Is she fit for a forum? How come you turned a blind eye towards your friend? Let her bring here the proof. And did I say I have the capabilities to free the people of poverty and diseases? Or I stood by my belief in my Scripture? And she ridicules prayer to God. The whole world believes in God and believes in prayer to oneself and to others shall bring good. Is it wrong to claim that it does work and God is Truthful in His words? If she has no belief in God and scripture nobody fights her here. But why she comments with sarcasm and playing mischief and exposing her ignorance? For fun?

QuoteOther than pointless rambling not sure what he has mentioned. Go to your local bookshop and there will be basic books regarding, uterus, menses etc.. Many are basic enough even for you and him to understand

If your friend has any subject or idea on her own thinking ability will she say such answers in a forum asking one to go to any local platform book shops and find our answer? If she is not sure of what I had mentioned can't she keep her mouth shut? Does she have to say with a comment 'Pointless ramblings'? Were you deaf, then?

QuoteBy the way can he pray so a super duper laptop can suddenly appear in front of me & I promise to reimburse him his fees.

Do you say I can answer this or this deserves any answer; I quote from my scripture God does not promise all these mundane things of this world. Your friend loves the best in this world she finds: super duper laptop as the best one could possess of this world.

"And do not exchange the covenant of Allah for a small price. Indeed, what is with Allah is best for you, if only you could know. Whatever you would have will end, but what Allah has is lasting. And We will surely give those who were patient their reward according to the best of what they used to do."

Based on my belief in my God, I believe in His words and I ignored her challenge and did not answer her mostly to her posts, having known her ignorance. She is unfit for any forum if you know for she hates God, His Almighty power, His Wisdom and so on. And she has contempt for those who believe in God Alone. And I do not know if you assume the position of judging others when you tend to look the other way from your friend's mismatch in this forum.

Finally, knowing well her talent here, I quit the thread telling her I am ignoring her and started a new thread, "vaccines are dead and are deadly". Your friend barges in there; but I have been keeping up and with my subject airing my view and idea on health and I am contending as a discussion the need for my topic here. And just look at your friend's entry and see for yourself if she discusses and defends her medicine with principle of her system? How come you are deaf, blind and dumb towards your friend?

I am sorry to say you are losing credibility as a moderator in my view.

I prefer natural birth.

I suppose I was born by natural birth with the help of midwife.


If one day Allah gives me child, then if possible I also want to give birth naturally by using midwife's aid, insha Allah. 

:pr

Peace.

I would choose natural birth if I had a choice. As a sufferer of cerebral palsy, I am somewhat skeptical of doctors but one should never shun modern medicine just as one should not shun traditional medicine, in the end it is all medicine and all medicine is from Allah and He knows what is best. So, my question is this: Who are we to say that this method is better or that method is better when it comes from Allah?

I will say that I believe my disability could been avoided, if the doctor that was to oversee my birth wasn't an hour late from playing golf. I was born normal but a few hours later, I suffered brain damage and had to be in a ICU, for fifty-five days between life and death. Only after that, was I well enough to go home with my parents. I am thankful to Allah that I live, I do see quite a few anti-modern medicine posts on this thread and I am quite disappointed with the ignorance. As I said before, all medicine comes from Allah. Each method has it's strengths and weakness. I favor a balance between two, I believe that would be most effective. Everything in moderation as I see it.

Salam to all.  :sun:

Quote from: Themaninblack on April 23, 2014, 04:06:09 AM
I am thankful to Allah that I live, I do see quite a few anti-modern medicine posts on this thread and I am quite disappointed with the ignorance.

If there are warning to us about the dangers of modern medicine, I suppose it doesn't always show ignorance.

I think we also need to listen to them, perhaps they do have good intentions for us (and Allah knows what are in their hearts).

Unfortunately, the discussion may sometimes seem tense if there are any member throw less appropriate words that may offend others.

I hope brothers and sisters can respect each other and can forgive each other.


Peace.

Quote from: Themaninblack on April 23, 2014, 04:06:09 AM

all medicine is from Allah and He knows what is best. So, my question is this: Who are we to say that this method is better or that method is better when it comes from Allah?

6:42  And certainly We sent to nations before you then We seized them with afflictions and diseases in order that they might humble themselves. And 6:17 says: And if Allah touch you with affliction, there is none to take it off but He; and if He visit you with good, then He has power over all things.

What do you gather from the above ayats? The diseases and adversities come upon us because of our pride and arrogance before Allah. Unless we fear and humble ourselves before Him, there is no remover of them both. Do you think the medical systems all over the world could remove the affliction that Allah touched us with? And are  all the medical systems from Allah? Please provide your Ayats as proof to your stand. If the proof from ayat is not available in Quran, then every system of medicine we resort to amounts to association; and our afflictions shall worsen right under our nose, until we die in ICU,which fails us in the end.

No way, shun all the systems of medicine and fear Allah; do not fear the doctors invented diseases; unless Allah allows no disease shall touch you. Even before the afflictions befall you, they are faraway removed from you. And if we do associate these medicines as remover of diseases, then we are proud and arrogant before Allah. Fear Him alone! And stay free from poverty and diseases.

Themaninblack
Salam, Here is the solution to you.

If you are a believer that Allah has power over all things, then believe so. Before that you understand your impure and lowly position in the eyes of Allah in that you doubted His Able over all things; this is because you valued the medical knowledge above God's Power over all things; and thus you associated and held high above the wretched medical knowledge above Allah's Wisdom. Seek Forgiveness and seek Patience from Him while you ask of Him to increase you in your Iman in the Power of Allah. By Allah, the Most Able, sister you shall improve. Follow my articles in the General Issues -> If Only Allah, then Allah Alone is Our Watch Word.

Allah has already sent down upon your RUH, the soul, "Get Well". Call on Him with His Name, thus: O Allah, the God of the Arsh, O The Most Able, You are the Most Forgiving, Most Merciful and the Most Near. Now with this in mind, believe in what your heart holds as "Get Well" with regard to your inability, as God send Mercy. The Most Able is by you. Never from this moment keep in your heart the diagnosis of the arrogant modern medicine system. Keep and revere only The Call Upon Him.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg349500#msg349500

If by natural birth you mean 'home birth' then I agree.

Pregnancy is not a disease and labour does not consitute a medical emergency, there is no need to be in hospital. Really it is the worst place as hospitals are noisy and stressful with little to no privacy which I think you need for such an intimate thing as childbirth.

My mother is a midwife in a rural area, most of the births she attends to are at home with the woman in bed although some are having them on the sofa, in a paddling pool or even in the bath! and sometimes by the time she gets there the baby is already born. She has had no any injuries or deaths. And this is in 'modern' Britain, not some third-world country.

:sun:

Quote from: Rachel84 on June 04, 2014, 08:56:13 AM
My mother is a midwife in a rural area, most of the births she attends to are at home with the woman in bed although some are having them on the sofa, in a paddling pool or even in the bath! and sometimes by the time she gets there the baby is already born. She has had no any injuries or deaths. And this is in 'modern' Britain, not some third-world country.

Wow! How lovely!  ;D


Peace.

Quote from: Themaninblack on April 23, 2014, 04:06:09 AM
I would choose natural birth if I had a choice. As a sufferer of cerebral palsy, I am somewhat skeptical of doctors but one should never shun modern medicine just as one should not shun traditional medicine, in the end it is all medicine and all medicine is from Allah and He knows what is best. So, my question is this: Who are we to say that this method is better or that method is better when it comes from Allah?

I will say that I believe my disability could been avoided, if the doctor that was to oversee my birth wasn't an hour late from playing golf. I was born normal but a few hours later, I suffered brain damage and had to be in a ICU, for fifty-five days between life and death. Only after that, was I well enough to go home with my parents. I am thankful to Allah that I live, I do see quite a few anti-modern medicine posts on this thread and I am quite disappointed with the ignorance. As I said before, all medicine comes from Allah. Each method has it's strengths and weakness. I favor a balance between two, I believe that would be most effective. Everything in moderation as I see it.

Salam to all.  :sun:

Yeah, tell that to some people here.. they will go nuts.

True, and thank God for your safety..

There is indeed lots of ignorant people here... and even more ignorant are those who defend them without any knowledge, (I personally belief there is a co-interest, just a belief).

These people are like bots.. they are either trained to be stupid, or simply paid to do so.

However, the light of a scientists will not extinguish with the blow of an ignorant.

These people have existed and will continue to exist.. the more they do, there will be more victims.
Medicine will stay forever, and will keep developing... and these peopel will keep digging more graves.

Im glad I work in the Medical field and do not buy the crap these people post here.
Glad you have passed through something real your self. So  I don't think they can blind you.

Peace,
Yami.

Quote from: Themaninblack on April 23, 2014, 04:06:09 AM
I would choose natural birth if I had a choice. As a sufferer of cerebral palsy, I am somewhat skeptical of doctors but one should never shun modern medicine just as one should not shun traditional medicine, in the end it is all medicine and all medicine is from Allah and He knows what is best. So, my question is this: Who are we to say that this method is better or that method is better when it comes from Allah?

I will say that I believe my disability could been avoided, if the doctor that was to oversee my birth wasn't an hour late from playing golf. I was born normal but a few hours later, I suffered brain damage and had to be in a ICU, for fifty-five days between life and death. Only after that, was I well enough to go home with my parents. I am thankful to Allah that I live, I do see quite a few anti-modern medicine posts on this thread and I am quite disappointed with the ignorance. As I said before, all medicine comes from Allah. Each method has it's strengths and weakness. I favor a balance between two, I believe that would be most effective. Everything in moderation as I see it.

Salam to all.  :sun:

I agree with this. Things do not have to be black or white. Each things has its advantages and disadvantages and it depends a lot on how they are done. My mother died recently and before that she had been to hospital from time to time and one thing that is bad about hospitals is the hustle and the lack of human nearness, when it is so. But with my mother I have seen that it does not have to be so. From the doctors to the cleaners I was so pleasantly surprised by their kindness, affability, efficiency, utmost care and attention to the patients and their visitors... May prayers for all those people who do very hard jobs and keep such a human attitude. And also it was very calm too in there.

So really, a hospital environment dos not have to be hostile or cold, I have seen it, that in fact it can be warm, caring and affectionate. And I must state too that it was not a private hospital, but a public one. May God bless them all who do those jobs which are so full of mercy.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on June 05, 2014, 03:35:37 AM

So really, a hospital environment dos not have to be hostile or cold, I have seen it, that in fact it can be warm, caring and affectionate. And I must state too that it was not a private hospital, but a public one.

Firstly: my condolences for your loss.

I agree, not all hospitals are bad, the efficiency of some of them is quite impressive, and particularly in the smaller ones the staff have more of the human touch, yep.

But at the end of the day they're still strangers aren't they. If I was exiting or bringing a new person into the world, I think I would still want to be at home. As long as you listen to what God is telling you for your own good then I think you'll be alright.

This thread is about birth, I have seen some videos on youtube/internet blogs of homebirths where it appears the woman is alone and does not seem to be thinking straight. For instance, one on youtube where a woman is filming herself giving birth in the bath and she appears to be alone. When the baby comes out and into the water and she picks it up, instead of holding it forwards to let the water come out of its nose, she instead is holding it back and kind of playing with it and you can hear it making choking sounds  >:(  as it's trying to breathe.

For people like this, who aren't paying attention to what they're doing, I think they may be better of in hospital IMO; as some irresponsible people have tried homebirth and the baby has died and rather than realising they just did it wrong they have blamed the whole concept of it and even set up websites saying homebirth is always dangerous, must never be allowed etc  :brickwall: just 'cause they themselves were careless.

I think people, we all, tend to want or expect the magical solution for everything which does not have any disadvantage and has all the advantages.  But that does not exist. We have to choose with which imperfections we are best fitted and with what conveniences we get more reward. And I am sure variety of choices is always good, because people are not machine pieces, each one has her or his own life and circumstances. The important things is choice and balance and maintaining standards of whatever choices there may be. There is always ways to do anything wrong and way to do it right, so we should try to do whatever you choose the best way.

It is the same as with the systems of governmente. Most of the problems are with the people and they way they manage them, more than with the systems themselves.

Salaam

Salaam,

Thank you all for the nice comments, means a lot to me.  May Allah reward you for this small act of kindness!.