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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: mmkhan on July 21, 2012, 01:59:02 AM

Title: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 21, 2012, 01:59:02 AM
Salaam,

I was wondering who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab, but could not find any answer from AlQuraan till now. But Allah has shown me something just now, lets take a look at it.

69:40 اِنَّہٗ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُوۡلٍ کَرِیۡمٍ
69:40 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

81:19 اِنَّہٗ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُوۡلٍ کَرِیۡمٍ
81:19 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

Who is this Rasoolin Kareem [a noble Messenger]?

Some say, he is Jibraeel - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Jibraeel is a Rasoolin Kareem.

Some say, he is Muhammed - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Muhammed is a Rasoolin Kareem.

No other choice left. But no body ever think, whom Allah called a Rasoolin Kareem. Can you guess? Try!! OK! Please check 44:17

44:17 وَ لَقَدۡ فَتَنَّا قَبۡلَہُمۡ قَوۡمَ فِرۡعَوۡنَ وَ جَآءَہُمۡ رَسُوۡلٌ کَرِیۡمٌ
44:17 And We had already tried before them the people of Pharaoh, and there came to them a noble messenger.

A Noble Messenger is with "M", that is not Muhammed, not Me either but that is Musa. This is only messenger called Rasoolin Kareem in AlQuraan.


Lets try it out the other way, inshaAllah.

7:144 قَالَ یٰمُوۡسٰۤی اِنِّی اصۡطَفَیۡتُکَ عَلَی النَّاسِ بِرِسٰلٰتِیۡ وَ بِکَلَامِیۡ ۫ۖ فَخُذۡ مَاۤ اٰتَیۡتُکَ وَ کُنۡ مِّنَ الشّٰکِرِیۡنَ
7:144 He said, "O Musa, I have chosen you over the people with My messages and My speaking. So hold what I have given you and be among the grateful."

7:145 وَ کَتَبۡنَا لَہٗ فِی الۡاَلۡوَاحِ مِنۡ کُلِّ شَیۡءٍ مَّوۡعِظَۃً وَّ تَفۡصِیۡلًا لِّکُلِّ شَیۡءٍ ۚ فَخُذۡہَا بِقُوَّۃٍ وَّ اۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَکَ یَاۡخُذُوۡا بِاَحۡسَنِہَا ؕ سَاُورِیۡکُمۡ دَارَ الۡفٰسِقِیۡنَ
7:145 And We wrote for him on the tablets of all things - instruction and explanation for all things, "Hold them strongly and order your people to take the best of it. I will show you the home of the defiantly disobedient."

Please note the last part of 7:145 i.e., "sa-uooreeKUM" referring to YOU all not them. Why?

I think because AlQuraan/AlKitaab is the Book given to Musa in writing, which shows that it was not written down by any human as said in 7:145 nor markings [a'raab] was put by any wicked non-believing king. Those are surely made up stories.


Please note: This is my personal understanding, please do check all the aayaats quoted before you accept anything.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 21, 2012, 05:09:29 AM
One should not draw such conclusions without having first completely studied the subject or having confidence that what is understood is correctly understood in the light of Arabic language and other references.

However perhaps Qur'aan is the only book about which even otherwise most idiots of the world keep commenting and talking that it means this and that. Otherwise idiots are not allowed to comment about any other book of world.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: good logic on July 21, 2012, 06:09:11 AM
Peace Mazhar.

Your post  seem to portrait "arrogance".

You keep reading in your Qoran that GOD ALONE teaches/explains/helps the sincere understand HIS words, yet you seem to think that only"certain types" understand it.

Only GOD decides , not you , me or anyone else.
As for this forum, everyone is entitled to their own opinion without risking being called" idiots" by you or anyone else.If you want to correct others , do it with knowledge, kindness and understanding
May the Lord grant you and us more patience.
Peace.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 21, 2012, 06:53:19 AM
I have just stated a principle which you accept with regard to every book. If some one talks same way about some other facmous book you will call him an idiot.

I have not called anyone idiot except a principle point.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: good logic on July 21, 2012, 07:26:33 AM
Thank you for your clarification Mazhar.

Peace.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: GODsubmitter on July 21, 2012, 07:37:48 AM
I always thought that Moses (Moshe) was the very first, and surely the greatest messenger of all!

He certainly spoke to God and God gave him tablets of the 10 commandments!

Even Jesus confirms this, when he said that we should all do as written in Moses' law, and that even the earth and the heavens will pass , but not one single iota of the Torah will pass!!!

Certainly, Quran is the confirmation and clarification of the Torah, there isn't much new in it.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 21, 2012, 08:10:25 AM
Thank you for your clarification Mazhar.

Peace.

Thanks good logic. Now you will start finding similar to what I said:

Quote
However perhaps Qur'aan is the only book about which even otherwise most idiots of the world keep commenting and talking that it means this and that. Otherwise idiots are not allowed to comment about any other book of world.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: 357 on July 21, 2012, 11:05:53 AM
Salaam,

I was wondering who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab, but could not find any answer from AlQuraan till now. But Allah has shown me something just now, lets take a look at it.

69:40 اِنَّہٗ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُوۡلٍ کَرِیۡمٍ
69:40 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

81:19 اِنَّہٗ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُوۡلٍ کَرِیۡمٍ
81:19 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

Who is this Rasoolin Kareem [a noble Messenger]?

Some say, he is Jibraeel - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Jibraeel is a Rasoolin Kareem.

Some say, he is Muhammed - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Muhammed is a Rasoolin Kareem.

No other choice left. But no body ever think, whom Allah called a Rasoolin Kareem. Can you guess? Try!! OK! Please check 44:17

44:17 وَ لَقَدۡ فَتَنَّا قَبۡلَہُمۡ قَوۡمَ فِرۡعَوۡنَ وَ جَآءَہُمۡ رَسُوۡلٌ کَرِیۡمٌ
44:17 And We had already tried before them the people of Pharaoh, and there came to them a noble messenger.

A Noble Messenger is with "M", that is not Muhammed, not Me either but that is Musa. This is only messenger called Rasoolin Kareem in AlQuraan.


Lets try it out the other way, inshaAllah.

7:144 قَالَ یٰمُوۡسٰۤی اِنِّی اصۡطَفَیۡتُکَ عَلَی النَّاسِ بِرِسٰلٰتِیۡ وَ بِکَلَامِیۡ ۫ۖ فَخُذۡ مَاۤ اٰتَیۡتُکَ وَ کُنۡ مِّنَ الشّٰکِرِیۡنَ
7:144 He said, "O Musa, I have chosen you over the people with My messages and My speaking. So hold what I have given you and be among the grateful."

7:145 وَ کَتَبۡنَا لَہٗ فِی الۡاَلۡوَاحِ مِنۡ کُلِّ شَیۡءٍ مَّوۡعِظَۃً وَّ تَفۡصِیۡلًا لِّکُلِّ شَیۡءٍ ۚ فَخُذۡہَا بِقُوَّۃٍ وَّ اۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَکَ یَاۡخُذُوۡا بِاَحۡسَنِہَا ؕ سَاُورِیۡکُمۡ دَارَ الۡفٰسِقِیۡنَ
7:145 And We wrote for him on the tablets of all things - instruction and explanation for all things, "Hold them strongly and order your people to take the best of it. I will show you the home of the defiantly disobedient."

Please note the last part of 7:145 i.e., "sa-uooreeKUM" referring to YOU all not them. Why?

I think because AlQuraan/AlKitaab is the Book given to Musa in writing, which shows that it was not written down by any human as said in 7:145 nor markings [a'raab] was put by any wicked non-believing king. Those are surely made up stories.


Please note: This is my personal understanding, please do check all the aayaats quoted before you accept anything.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

congratu.............on your fine reasoning.

I agree with you, even though others may not.

 :peace:

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on July 21, 2012, 11:17:47 AM
Salaam brother,

How do you want to justify this ayaat and 100 other ayaats which happened after he was given the book (think about the stories of Dawoed and Sulayman)?

7:150 And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Miserable is what you have done after I was gone; do you wish to hasten the action of your Lord?" And he cast down the tablets, and took his brother by his head dragging him towards him. He said: "Son of my mother, the people overpowered me and nearly killed me, so do not make the enemies rejoice over me, and do not make me with the wicked people."

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: bkanwar2 on July 21, 2012, 11:29:31 AM
Keep going arround in circles with current translation/mistranslation.  Will lead you no where.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 06:34:49 AM
Salaam brother,

How do you want to justify this ayaat and 100 other ayaats which happened after he was given the book (think about the stories of Dawoed and Sulayman)?

7:150 And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Miserable is what you have done after I was gone; do you wish to hasten the action of your Lord?" And he cast down the tablets, and took his brother by his head dragging him towards him. He said: "Son of my mother, the people overpowered me and nearly killed me, so do not make the enemies rejoice over me, and do not make me with the wicked people."

Salaam,
Bender

Salaam brother,

Everything is there in AlQuraan/AlKitaab clearly mentioned but we cannot see it until Allah gives us permission to see. Please take a look at the following aayat and let me know what you think bro.

7:38 قَالَ ادۡخُلُوۡا فِیۡۤ اُمَمٍ قَدۡ خَلَتۡ مِنۡ قَبۡلِکُمۡ مِّنَ الۡجِنِّ وَ الۡاِنۡسِ فِی النَّارِ ؕ کُلَّمَا دَخَلَتۡ اُمَّۃٌ لَّعَنَتۡ اُخۡتَہَا ؕ حَتّٰۤی اِذَا ادَّارَکُوۡا فِیۡہَا جَمِیۡعًا ۙ قَالَتۡ اُخۡرٰىہُمۡ لِاُوۡلٰىہُمۡ رَبَّنَا ہٰۤؤُلَآءِ اَضَلُّوۡنَا فَاٰتِہِمۡ عَذَابًا ضِعۡفًا مِّنَ النَّارِ ۬ؕ قَالَ لِکُلٍّ ضِعۡفٌ وَّ لٰکِنۡ لَّا تَعۡلَمُوۡنَ
7:38 He said, "Enter among nations which had passed on before you of jinn and mankind into the Fire." Every time a nation enter, it curse its sister until, when they have all overtaken one another therein, the last of them will say about the first of them "Our Lord, these had misled us, so give them a double punishment of the Fire. He said, "For each is double, but you do not know."

Qaala = He said [maazi - past tense], check 2:30 and see the difference in translation.
Dakhalat = They enter [maazi - past tense]
La'anat = They curse [maazi - past tense]
And also Iddaarakoo, Qaalat, etc... all are maazi - past tense. How?


Unfortunately almost all translators think that they are more smarter than Allah, hence they try to correct Allah's mistakes in their translation.

Please take a look at the translations how they try to correct Allah in this aayat, they changed all past tense to future tense.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=7&verse=38


And many other aayaats that supports my understanding, such as:

2:55 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لَکَ
2:55 And when you said, "O Musa..."

2:61 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نَّصۡبِرَ عَلٰی طَعَامٍ وَّاحِدٍ
2:61 And when you said, "O Musa, we can never endure one food..."

And also from 2:63-65

Why YOU is mentioned in these aayaats? What YOU have to do with Musa? Just think.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 06:50:46 AM
Quote
And many other aayaats that supports my understanding, such as:

2:55 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لَکَ
2:55 And when you said, "O Musa..."

2:61 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نَّصۡبِرَ عَلٰی طَعَامٍ وَّاحِدٍ
2:61 And when you said, "O Musa, we can never endure one food..."

And also from 2:63-65

Why YOU is mentioned in these aayaats? What YOU have to do with Musa? Just think.

تُمۡ is not for bender or mmkahn. It is for Bani Israel who lived with Musa alahissalam. وَ اِذۡ  is continuing the discourse with those people reminding them of their past history.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Tlepsh on July 23, 2012, 07:47:06 AM
47:2   And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 08:05:44 AM
47:2   And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.

Peace Tlepsh,

Yes of course and also consider the transmission...

3:1 الم
3:2 الله The God لا no إله deity إلا only هو He الحي The Living القيوم The Sustainer of all
3:3 نزل descended عليك to you الكتاب the book بالحق in the truth مصدقا confirming لما to what بين between يديه His hands وأنزل and descended التوراة the Taurat والإنجيل and The Injeel

2:97 قل say من who كان is عدوا an enemy لجبريل to Gabriel فإنه so indeed he نزله descended it على on قلبك your heart بإذن by permission الله The God مصدقا confirming لما to what بين between يديه His hands وهدى and guidance وبشرى and glad tidings للمؤمنين to the believers
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 09:45:04 AM
47:2   And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.

Dear Tlepsh,

Thank you for the aayat. First of all you have understand what "Nuzilla" means. If you note, Allah never used this word in aayaats that I have quoted in my original post. Do you understand what could be the reason? Please check...

Nuzillah is maazi majhool [passive], why do you think it is not Unazzilu which is muzarey [imperfect]? As per your say, those who believe and do good works they believe in what was SENT down to Mohammed, that means they believe only after its completion because of Nuzillah. If so, then how they become believers and how they do good works?

Don't get confuse bro. Naazil is not something very special, you can see Naazil of water [8:11] Naazil of fadhl [2:90] Naazil of maaida [5:112], Naazil of authority [7:33], Naazil of rizq [40:13], etc. There is nothing HOLY about naazil.

If you are talking about Naazil of aayaats, they are still in progress NOW...  :yes

16:101 وَ اِذَا بَدَّلۡنَاۤ اٰیَۃً مَّکَانَ اٰیَۃٍ ۙ وَّ اللّٰہُ اَعۡلَمُ بِمَا یُنَزِّلُ قَالُوۡۤا اِنَّمَاۤ اَنۡتَ مُفۡتَرٍ ؕ بَلۡ اَکۡثَرُہُمۡ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ
16:101 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "you, are but an inventor." But most of them do not know.

- Substitution of aayat in place of an aayat, to understand it better, how it works, please see 4:20

- Allah is most knowing of what He sends down [continues process, please check Arabic word unazzilu in 16:101], referring to aayaats. Naazil is not referring to new additional aayaats, but it is referring to understanding of aayaats.

- In this case, they say, "you are but an inventor". Allah replies to them "most of them do not know".

Please check the exactly same word unazzilu in 30:24 for water. It means, it is continues process, not once and for all.

Hope you understand what I am trying to say, inshaAllah.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 09:55:04 AM
Peace Tlepsh,

Yes of course and also consider the transmission...

3:1 الم
3:2 الله The God لا no إله deity إلا only هو He الحي The Living القيوم The Sustainer of all
3:3 نزل descended عليك to you الكتاب the book بالحق in the truth مصدقا confirming لما to what بين between يديه His hands وأنزل and descended التوراة the Taurat والإنجيل and The Injeel

2:97 قل say من who كان is عدوا an enemy لجبريل to Gabriel فإنه so indeed he نزله descended it على on قلبك your heart بإذن by permission الله The God مصدقا confirming لما to what بين between يديه His hands وهدى and guidance وبشرى and glad tidings للمؤمنين to the believers

Thanks Noon for the aayaats.

How do you understand 4:140?

4:140 وَ قَدۡ نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکُمۡ فِی الۡکِتٰبِ اَنۡ اِذَا سَمِعۡتُمۡ اٰیٰتِ اللّٰہِ یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا وَ یُسۡتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا فَلَا تَقۡعُدُوۡا مَعَہُمۡ حَتّٰی یَخُوۡضُوۡا فِیۡ حَدِیۡثٍ غَیۡرِہٖۤ ۫ۖ اِنَّکُمۡ اِذًا مِّثۡلُہُمۡ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ جَامِعُ الۡمُنٰفِقِیۡنَ وَ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ فِیۡ جَہَنَّمَ جَمِیۡعَۨا
4:140 And indeed He has SENT DOWN [nazzala] UPON YOU ALL in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah, they are denied and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 09:58:38 AM
تُمۡ is not for bender or mmkahn. It is for Bani Israel who lived with Musa alahissalam. وَ اِذۡ  is continuing the discourse with those people reminding them of their past history.

I don't see mentioning of Bani Israel in those aayaats. And there is no those and them but YOU.


mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
I don't see mentioning of Bani Israel in those aayaats. And there is no those and them but YOU.

mmKhan

This shows unawareness about reading Arabic text.

And many other aayaats that supports my understanding, such as:

2:55 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لَکَ
2:55 And when you said, "O Musa..."

2:61 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نَّصۡبِرَ عَلٰی طَعَامٍ وَّاحِدٍ
2:61 And when you said, "O Musa, we can never endure one food..."

And also from 2:63-65

Why YOU is mentioned in these aayaats? What YOU have to do with Musa? Just think.

وَ  is a discourse coordinator. اِذۡ is a time adverb, and read English grammar that will also tell what is meant by an adverb. Just see what is the discourse. It is about the point in time when Musa alahissalam and his nation were conversing.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 10:12:31 AM
Thanks Noon for the aayaats.

How do you understand 4:140?

4:140 وَ قَدۡ نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکُمۡ فِی الۡکِتٰبِ اَنۡ اِذَا سَمِعۡتُمۡ اٰیٰتِ اللّٰہِ یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا وَ یُسۡتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا فَلَا تَقۡعُدُوۡا مَعَہُمۡ حَتّٰی یَخُوۡضُوۡا فِیۡ حَدِیۡثٍ غَیۡرِہٖۤ ۫ۖ اِنَّکُمۡ اِذًا مِّثۡلُہُمۡ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ جَامِعُ الۡمُنٰفِقِیۡنَ وَ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ فِیۡ جَہَنَّمَ جَمِیۡعَۨا
4:140 And indeed He has SENT DOWN [nazzala] UPON YOU ALL in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah, they are denied and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

Peace mmKhan, how did we all hear the book -- which source and transmission?

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 10:25:48 AM
This shows unawareness about reading Arabic text.

And many other aayaats that supports my understanding, such as:

2:55 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لَکَ
2:55 And when you said, "O Musa..."

2:61 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نَّصۡبِرَ عَلٰی طَعَامٍ وَّاحِدٍ
2:61 And when you said, "O Musa, we can never endure one food..."

And also from 2:63-65

Why YOU is mentioned in these aayaats? What YOU have to do with Musa? Just think.

وَ  is a discourse coordinator. اِذۡ is a time adverb, and read English grammar that will also tell what is meant by an adverb. Just see what is the discourse. It is about the point in time when Musa alahissalam and his nation were conversing.

Thank you for your advice for learning English grammar, I will try, inshaAllah. Now,

Allah knows how to say otherwise...

2:67 وَ اِذۡ قَالَ مُوۡسٰی لِقَوۡمِہٖۤ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَاۡمُرُکُمۡ اَنۡ تَذۡبَحُوۡا بَقَرَۃً ؕ قَالُوۡۤا اَتَتَّخِذُنَا ہُزُوًا ؕ قَالَ اَعُوۡذُ بِاللّٰہِ اَنۡ اَکُوۡنَ مِنَ الۡجٰہِلِیۡنَ
2:67 And when Musa said to his people, "Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you take us in ridicule?" He said, "I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant."

Look at the construction of this aayat and then compare it with the one in original post.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 10:28:37 AM
Peace mmKhan, how did we all hear the book -- which source and transmission?

Peace brother Noon,

Is it really important? If it is, Allah would have shown us.

I got TheBook from my aunt for the first time, then next copies I bought from a publisher. I am not kidding, this is true as it is irrelevant.

mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 10:29:14 AM
Thank you for your advice for learning English grammar, I will try, inshaAllah. Now,

Allah knows how to say otherwise...

2:67 وَ اِذۡ قَالَ مُوۡسٰی لِقَوۡمِہٖۤ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَاۡمُرُکُمۡ اَنۡ تَذۡبَحُوۡا بَقَرَۃً ؕ قَالُوۡۤا اَتَتَّخِذُنَا ہُزُوًا ؕ قَالَ اَعُوۡذُ بِاللّٰہِ اَنۡ اَکُوۡنَ مِنَ الۡجٰہِلِیۡنَ
2:67 And when Musa said to his people, "Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you take us in ridicule?" He said, "I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant."

Look at the construction of this aayat and then compare it with the one in original post.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

"His Qaum" denotes none else but Bani Israel. And the entire discourse is about reminding the Bani Israel of their past history.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 23, 2012, 10:36:08 AM
"His Qaum" denotes none else but Bani Israel. And the entire discourse is about reminding the Bani Israel of their past history.

Did I ask you who his qaum is? BTW, remember always, your words are not at all important to me [and may be to others here] until you give proper references from AlQuraan.

Why you ignored what I asked you. I said, look at the construction of that aayat which is very very clear unlike the other one and please tell me why it has been designed differently?


mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 02:35:18 PM
Thank you for your advice for learning English grammar, I will try, inshaAllah. Now,

Allah knows how to say otherwise...

2:67 وَ اِذۡ قَالَ مُوۡسٰی لِقَوۡمِہٖۤ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَاۡمُرُکُمۡ اَنۡ تَذۡبَحُوۡا بَقَرَۃً ؕ قَالُوۡۤا اَتَتَّخِذُنَا ہُزُوًا ؕ قَالَ اَعُوۡذُ بِاللّٰہِ اَنۡ اَکُوۡنَ مِنَ الۡجٰہِلِیۡنَ
2:67 And when Musa said to his people, "Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you take us in ridicule?" He said, "I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant."

Look at the construction of this aayat and then compare it with the one in original post.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

The other quoted Ayah were

Quote
And many other aayaats that supports my understanding, such as:

2:55 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لَکَ
2:55 And when you said, "O Musa..."

2:61 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نَّصۡبِرَ عَلٰی طَعَامٍ وَّاحِدٍ2:61 And when you said, "O Musa, we can never endure one food..."

And also from 2:63-65

Why YOU is mentioned in these aayaats? What YOU have to do with Musa? Just think.

You thanked for the advice but did not adhere to it. Please accept it and read about Pronouns in some English grammar site on line. What they are, what they represent, when are they used, when are they the subjects and when are they the objects.

The moment you understand Pronouns, you will find the difference and cause of use of different pronouns for second person in the above Ayah.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Tlepsh on July 24, 2012, 12:54:16 AM
2 :136

قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ


Say: "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."



3: 84

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Say: "We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."




4: 163

إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِن بَعْدِهِ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَى وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا

We have inspired you as We had inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And We had inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave David the Psalms.


42: 13

شَرَعَ لَكُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ اللَّهُ يَجْتَبِي إِلَيْهِ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَن يُنِيبُ

He has decreed for you the same systemHe ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it.  Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.


Dear mmkhan
God says he has send the same system to all. What I understand is that the book=the law is the same book/law but in Qur'an there may be some new kasas/stories compared to Taurat and İnjil
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: good logic on July 24, 2012, 02:52:35 AM
Peace mmkhan and all.
Dear mmkhan

You are absolutely right in your quest to find out for yourself, only seeking help from your creator.That is the correct method to learn the word of GOD.
I am going to add my views for you to reflect further towards finding your answer.

GOD has sent the same "Message", All true messengers of GOD are " Rassoul Karim" . They bring the same message. Here are some exract from the "Qoran":

21:25 We did not send any messenger before you except with the inspiration: "There is no god except Me; you shall worship Me alone."   وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا أَنَا فَاعْبُدُو
39:65   It has been revealed to you, and to those before you that if you ever commit idol worship, all your works will be nullified, and you will be with the losers.   وَلَقَدْ أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ لَئِنْ أَشْرَكْتَ لَيَحْبَطَنَّ عَمَلُكَ وَلَتَكُونَنَّ مِنْ الْخَسِرِينَ
41:6   Say, "I am no more than a human being like you, who has been inspired that your god is one god. You shall be devoted to Him, and ask His forgiveness. Woe to the idol worshipers.   قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَحِدٌ فَاسْتَقِيمُوا إِلَيْهِ وَاسْتَغْفِرُوهُ وَوَيْلٌ لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ

41:43   What is said to you is precisely what was said to the previous messengers. Your Lord possesses forgiveness, and He also possesses painful retribution.   مَا يُقَالُ لَكَ إِلَّا مَا قَدْ قِيلَ لِلرُّسُلِ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَذُو مَغْفِرَةٍ وَذُو عِقَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

42:13   He decreed for you the same  System/religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit.   شَرَعَ لَكُمْ مِنْ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ اللَّهُ يَجْتَبِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ

42:15   This is what you shall preach, and steadfastly maintain what you are commanded to do, and do not follow their wishes. And proclaim: "I believe in all the scriptures sent down by GOD. I was commanded to judge among you equitably. GOD is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. GOD will gather us all together; to Him is the ultimate destiny."   فَلِذَلِكَ فَادْعُ وَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَقُلْ ءامَنْتُ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنْ كِتَبٍ وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَعْدِلَ بَيْنَكُمْ اللَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمْ لَنَا أَعْمَلُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَلُكُمْ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ اللَّهُ يَجْمَعُ بَيْنَنَا وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ

The message is Submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone. Rites/rules may vary because GOD tries believers of different messengers.
Unfortunately very few follow these messengers ( Uphold the authority of GOD Alone, only follow HIS word.

35:4   If they disbelieve you, messengers before you have been disbelieved. GOD is in control of all things.   وَإِنْ يُكَذِّبُوكَ فَقَدْ كُذِّبَتْ رُسُلٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَإِلَى اللَّهِ تُرْجَعُ الْأُمُو

42:21   They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by GOD. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution.*   أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَؤا شَرَعُوا لَهُمْ مِنْ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَنْ بِهِ اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةُ الْفَصْلِ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّلِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

43:23   Invariably, when we sent a warner to any community, the leaders of that community would say, "We found our parents following certain practices, and we will continue in their footsteps."   وَكَذَلِكَ مَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فِي قَرْيَةٍ مِنْ نَذِيرٍ إِلَّا قَالَ مُتْرَفُوهَا إِنَّا وَجَدْنَا ءابَاءَنَا عَلَى أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَى ءاثَرِهِمْ مُقْتَدُونَ

You are responsible only for yourself. So you are right to question and only trust in GOD Alone.

43:44   This is a message for you and your people; all of you will be questioned.   وَإِنَّهُ لَذِكْرٌ لَكَ وَلِقَوْمِكَ وَسَوْفَ تُسْءلُونَ


27:84   When they arrive, He(GOD0 will say, "You have rejected My revelations, before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?"   حَتَّى إِذَا جَاءُ وقَالَ أَكَذَّبْتُمْ بِءايَتِي وَلَمْ تُحِيطُوا بِهَا عِلْمًا أَمَّاذَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

Peace.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 24, 2012, 03:15:37 AM
The other quoted Ayah were

You thanked for the advice but did not adhere to it. Please accept it and read about Pronouns in some English grammar site on line. What they are, what they represent, when are they used, when are they the subjects and when are they the objects.

The moment you understand Pronouns, you will find the difference and cause of use of different pronouns for second person in the above Ayah.

I know that I did not adhere it because I don't have much time to study languages.

I will thankful to you if you can quote my any aayat showing me its usage that you wanted to say.

May Allah guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 24, 2012, 03:23:17 AM
2 :136 قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
Say: "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."

3: 84 قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
Say: "We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."

4: 163 إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِن بَعْدِهِ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَى وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا
We have inspired you as We had inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And We had inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave David the Psalms.

42: 13 شَرَعَ لَكُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ اللَّهُ يَجْتَبِي إِلَيْهِ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَن يُنِيبُ
He has decreed for you the same systemHe ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it.  Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.

Dear mmkhan
God says he has send the same system to all. What I understand is that the book=the law is the same book/law but in Qur'an there may be some new kasas/stories compared to Taurat and İnjil

Salaam brother,

Thanks for quoting aayaats. You highlighted "wahi", without going into details, I just wanted to give you some references, inshaAllah you will understand what "wahi" is. Please check - Zachariyya's wahi in 19:11, Shaitaan's wahi in 6:121, etc.

Brother, I take AlKitaab/TheBook means TEXT/Written. If you search for AlTauraat, you will NOT find that it was given to Musa, if you search for AlQuraan, you will NOT find that it was given to Muhammed, so why to differentiate?

We have to understand that AlQuraan/AlKitaab is from Allah, we need to serve Him by agreeing what He said in it. That is what we have been created for.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 04:51:40 AM
Quote
I know that I did not adhere it because I don't have much time to study languages.

I will thankful to you if you can quote my any aayat showing me its usage that you wanted to say.

Such an irrational and illogical answer and understanding through which one has the hallucination of understading Qur'aan is enough for me to say good bye to you. And pray that Shaitaan does not fully overpower you.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 24, 2012, 04:56:21 AM
Such an irrational and illogical answer and understanding through which one has the hallucination of understading Qur'aan is enough for me to say good bye to you. And pray that Shaitaan does not fully overpower you.

Is it irrational and illogical answer for you when I say you "the Truth"? Learning English language is NOT necessary for me, you or anyone else. How can you force anyone on that.

Instead, I asked you to get me some aayaats from AlQuraan, is this important or learning English language for you? How you people judge!

Anyways, thanks for your prayers and same to you.


May Allah protect us and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 05:02:10 AM
Is it irrational and illogical answer for you when I say you "the Truth"? Learning English language is NOT necessary for me, you or anyone else. How can you force anyone on that.

Instead, I asked you to get me some aayaats from AlQuraan, is this important or learning English language for you? How you people judge!

Anyways, thanks for your prayers and same to you.


May Allah protect us and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

Not learning English, but only to know what Pronouns mean and how are they used in the text. Stupid is he who does not know the basics like Pronouns and is boasting like a elevated scholar and passing verdicts even about the Messengers. It is nothing but hallucination and fascination caused by the Shaitaan.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: savage_carrot on July 24, 2012, 05:16:05 AM
Mazhar, he wanted more clarification. To say he's being partially overcome by Shaitaan is counter productive. Abusing someone for not knowing grammar and yet daring to try and understand the quran while you do and have it all worked out is a form of elitism. If you can't help clarify your points further regarding what he asked, just walk away.


Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 05:50:47 AM
Mazhar, he wanted more clarification. To say he's being partially overcome by Shaitaan is counter productive. Abusing someone for not knowing grammar and yet daring to try and understand the quran while you do and have it all worked out is a form of elitism. If you can't help clarify your points further regarding what he asked, just walk away.

The issue is only about pronoun. You ask me placing before me two verses and insist in the manner he is saying, how will I make you understand except telling you to first acquaint yourself with what a Pronoun is in the language and why and where it is used. If you are not willing to know what Pronoun is heavens cant make you understand.

He brings Kum against Tum and makes his philosphy about every subject. One Pronoun is the Object of Verb and the other is the Subject of Verb. When you wish not to know a Pronoun what is the point that I might make you understand what is meant by subject and object in a language.

When people say something that amounts to a loud mouthm in a state of not aware of abc on that issue, rather they should be given a shut up call by the moderator. Freedom of speech does not mean to let every one talk all nonesense and idiotic things unchecked.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 24, 2012, 06:13:51 AM
The issue is only about pronoun. You ask me placing before me two verses and insist in the manner he is saying, how will I make you understand except telling you to first acquaint yourself with what a Pronoun is in the language and why and where it is used. If you are not willing to know what Pronoun is heavens cant make you understand.

He brings Kum against Tum and makes his philosphy about every subject. One Pronoun is the Object of Verb and the other is the Subject of Verb. When you wish not to know a Pronoun what is the point that I might make you understand what is meant by subject and object in a language.

When people say something that amounts to a loud mouthm in a state of not aware of abc on that issue, rather they should be given a shut up call by the moderator. Freedom of speech does not mean to let every one talk all nonesense and idiotic things unchecked.

Did you try to explain me your point? NO!
Did you try to give me an example? NO!
Did you try to show me an aayat to explain your point? NO!
Then what you were doing? You know exactly what you were doing already.

Anyways, as per my understanding

Mazher always try to convince mmKhan without bringing forward any proof. He always do that to me.

As per the above sentence, "Mazher" is Subject and "mmKhan" is Object. And "He" is subject pronoun and "me" is object pronoun.

Am I correct sir? If not, please correct me and then put forward your point. If I am right, then what is your point?


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on July 24, 2012, 06:21:44 AM
Did you try to explain me your point? NO!
Did you try to give me an example? NO!
Did you try to show me an aayat to explain your point? NO!
Then what you were doing? You know exactly what you were doing already.

Anyways, as per my understanding

Mazher always try to convince mmKhan without bringing forward any proof. He always do that to me.

As per the above sentence, "Mazher" is Subject and "mmKhan" is Object. And "He" is subject pronoun and "me" is object pronoun.

Am I correct sir? If not, please correct me and then put forward your point. If I am right, then what is your point?


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

 :rotfl:
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: savage_carrot on July 24, 2012, 08:51:46 AM
Okay, that was amusing.

Shut up calls? lol

I'd better start revising my pronouns now... :P
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 09:02:45 AM
Okay, that was amusing.

Shut up calls? lol

I'd better start revising my pronouns now... :P

Yes, just calls, not the use of sword type thing in your hand--in avator.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 09:24:30 AM
Quote
Did you try to explain me your point? NO!

I had no point. I will try to explain your point.

Allah knows how to say otherwise...

2:67 وَ اِذۡ قَالَ مُوۡسٰی لِقَوۡمِہٖۤ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَاۡمُرُکُمۡ اَنۡ تَذۡبَحُوۡا بَقَرَۃً ؕ قَالُوۡۤا اَتَتَّخِذُنَا ہُزُوًا ؕ قَالَ اَعُوۡذُ بِاللّٰہِ اَنۡ اَکُوۡنَ مِنَ الۡجٰہِلِیۡنَ
2:67 And when Musa said to his people, "Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you take us in ridicule?" He said, "I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant."

A pronoun refers to a Noun which has already been stated. Musa alahisalam said to HIS Nation. Now he is addressing his nation and Kum refers to his people with whom is face to face. And Kum is the Object of Verb.

Quote
2:55 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لَکَ
2:55 And when you said, "O Musa..."

2:61 ...وَ اِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ یٰمُوۡسٰی لَنۡ نَّصۡبِرَ عَلٰی طَعَامٍ وَّاحِدٍ2:61 And when you said, "O Musa, we can never endure one food..."

The people referred by this pronoun are same people who are in the first example. Only role is different, now they are the Subject of Verb.

Moreover only the first consonant is second prerson pronoun and Meem indicates plurality.


Pronouns


Pronouns in Arabic الْضَّمَاْئِرُ belong to the category of "nouns." Therefore, everything that applies to nouns will apply to them. Pronouns have genders, numbers, and grammatical case. Pronouns are always definite nouns.

Pronouns in Arabic are four categories:

Subject Pronouns:

Separate Subject Pronouns

Attached Subject Pronouns

 
Object Pronouns:

Separate Object Pronouns

Attached Object Pronouns


There is no harm in going through these 4-5 pages

Pronouns (http://arabic.tripod.com/Pronouns1.htm)



Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: savage_carrot on July 24, 2012, 09:35:11 AM
Yes sir. I'll get right on it.

Tbh Mazhar, when you explain things normally, I learn a lot from your posts. It's when you start with the arcane grammar speak that people's eyes generally glaze over. For example: 'broken feminine plural'...and a silence descends in which we absorb the awe of what has just been revealed. To most it's like yeah and? To some it's maybe I shouldn't say anything at this point because it obviously must mean something important but I don't know why and I won't ask because what if everyone else knows and I'm the only one who doesn't. A few ask for further clarification and get abused for it :p

But I appreciate you taking the time out and explaining things for those of us who have no idea what your point is :)

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 24, 2012, 09:51:03 AM
I had no point. I will try to explain your point.

Allah knows how to say otherwise...

2:67 وَ اِذۡ قَالَ مُوۡسٰی لِقَوۡمِہٖۤ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَاۡمُرُکُمۡ اَنۡ تَذۡبَحُوۡا بَقَرَۃً ؕ قَالُوۡۤا اَتَتَّخِذُنَا ہُزُوًا ؕ قَالَ اَعُوۡذُ بِاللّٰہِ اَنۡ اَکُوۡنَ مِنَ الۡجٰہِلِیۡنَ
2:67 And when Musa said to his people, "Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you take us in ridicule?" He said, "I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant."

A pronoun refers to a Noun which has already been stated. Musa alahisalam said to HIS Nation. Now he is addressing his nation and Kum refers to his people with whom is face to face. And Kum is the Object of Verb.

Oh! Thanks for accepting that you don't have any point. I was simply taking stress!

I know that, where did I say KUM is not referring to HIS people?

Quote
The people referred by this pronoun are same people who are in the first example. Only role is different, now they are the Subject of Verb.

Moreover only the first consonant is second prerson pronoun and Meem indicates plurality.
Now, here is the problem! How can you decide that people referred by this pronoun are same people mentioned in 2:67? This is what I was asking you for supporting aayat for your claim.

When Allah used KUM in 2:67, to avoid confusion, He clearly mentioned by adding "li-qaumihi", so that you should not take it to yourselves unlike 2:55

Otherwise, why it has not been clarified in 2:55 by adding the same or similar word? There are no assumptions in TheBook of Allah, everything has been made very clear. But you are assuming that 2:55 refers to same people mentioned in 2:67 without any support from other aayaats.

Did you get my point? This was my point when I asked you to compare the construction and design of those two aayaats. Didn't I say knowing about pronouns or English language is irrelevant to understand Allah's message?

Quote
Pronouns

Pronouns in Arabic الْضَّمَاْئِرُ belong to the category of "nouns." Therefore, everything that applies to nouns will apply to them. Pronouns have genders, numbers, and grammatical case. Pronouns are always definite nouns.

Pronouns in Arabic are four categories:

Subject Pronouns:

Separate Subject Pronouns

Attached Subject Pronouns
 
Object Pronouns:

Separate Object Pronouns

Attached Object Pronouns


There is no harm in going through these 4-5 pages

Pronouns (http://arabic.tripod.com/Pronouns1.htm)
I am really thankful for explaining all this and thanks for the link.

BTW, is that you Mazhar in that picture in given link above? If it is you, where is your beard brother? Oh sorry for  :offtopic:


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 24, 2012, 09:55:52 AM
For example:

Salaam SC,

 :rotfl:

BTW, what mean tbh? Sorry, I am asking beside your example  :P

Quote
But I appreciate you taking the time out and explaining things for those of us who have no idea what your point is :)

You are appreciating on wrong thing. He said he don't have a point.  :P


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmkhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 11:11:33 AM
Oh! Thanks for accepting that you don't have any point. I was simply taking stress!

I know that, where did I say KUM is not referring to HIS people?
Now, here is the problem! How can you decide that people referred by this pronoun are same people mentioned in 2:67? This is what I was asking you for supporting aayat for your claim.

When Allah used KUM in 2:67, to avoid confusion, He clearly mentioned by adding "li-qaumihi", so that you should not take it to yourselves unlike 2:55

Otherwise, why it has not been clarified in 2:55 by adding the same or similar word? There are no assumptions in TheBook of Allah, everything has been made very clear. But you are assuming that 2:55 refers to same people mentioned in 2:67 without any support from other aayaats.

Did you get my point? This was my point when I asked you to compare the construction and design of those two aayaats. ...


The discourse of 2:55 starts from 2:47 by addressing the Nation of Musa alahissalam.

In 2:54 are the same words---وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِقَوْمِهِ . The conversations that took place in the past on various occassions are reported verbatem. The same people of his nation are talking to Musa alahissalam.

I recall I had mentioned earlier about conjunction followed by adverb وَإِذْ. One also need to study adverbs to understand a written text of any language.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 11:24:53 AM
Yes sir. I'll get right on it.

Tbh [to be honest, I have uncoded the abbreviated start for those who wish not consume personal minds] Mazhar, when you explain things normally, I learn a lot from your posts. It's when you start with the arcane grammar speak that people's eyes generally glaze over. For example: 'broken feminine plural'...and a silence descends in which we absorb the awe of what has just been revealed. To most it's like yeah and? To some it's maybe I shouldn't say anything at this point because it obviously must mean something important but I don't know why and I won't ask because what if everyone else knows and I'm the only one who doesn't. A few ask for further clarification and get abused for it :p

But I appreciate you taking the time out and explaining things for those of us who have no idea what your point is :)

'broken feminine plural'. The text comprises of words, phrases and sentence. Many people "understand" Qur'aan and base their "disertations" without working on any of three parts of text as they sanely do with all other texts of other languages and books.

Such word has its own identity and meanings and effect upon other words in the Text. Unless one identifies individual words and knows their particularities, you tell me, what he is understanding  could either be Heavens telling him or some whispers of Shaitan make him so understand.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: savage_carrot on July 24, 2012, 12:26:45 PM
Quote
You are appreciating on wrong thing. He said he don't have a point.
Haha...oops, I'm being scolded now for abbreviating something so...I'll just sit in the corner and watch the fireworks.

'broken feminine plural'. The text comprises of words, phrases and sentence. Many people "understand" Qur'aan and base their "disertations" without working on any of three parts of text as they sanely do with all other texts of other languages and books.

Such word has its own identity and meanings and effect upon other words in the Text. Unless one identifies individual words and knows their particularities, you tell me, what he is understanding  could either be Heavens telling him or some whispers of Shaitan make him so understand.
I agree with you Mazhar. We look at whatever we need to look at to better understand. Most people have problems with arabic because that's not their native language and so need some extra help, is all. In as clear a way as possible. When I came to the forum, bro Ayman helped me out a lot patiently and still does with arabic etc, he's an awesome teacher (and he doesn't scold me :p).
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on July 24, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
Yes sir. I'll get right on it.

Tbh Mazhar, when you explain things normally, I learn a lot from your posts. It's when you start with the arcane grammar speak that people's eyes generally glaze over. For example: 'broken feminine plural'...and a silence descends in which we absorb the awe of what has just been revealed. To most it's like yeah and? To some it's maybe I shouldn't say anything at this point because it obviously must mean something important but I don't know why and I won't ask because what if everyone else knows and I'm the only one who doesn't. A few ask for further clarification and get abused for it :p

But I appreciate you taking the time out and explaining things for those of us who have no idea what your point is :)

Salaam,

I totally agree. It always costs me a lot of time just to translate his posts (the ones which are full of grammar terms) let alone understanding them. Even translators have trouble with some of those terms. When he explains normally it's more refreshing.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 03:25:37 PM
Salaam,

I totally agree. It always costs me a lot of time just to translate his posts (the ones which are full of grammar terms) let alone understanding them. Even translators have trouble with some of those terms. When he explains normally it's more refreshing.

Perhaps, I have to bring in the grammar with those posts where some friends of the forum handle Ayah at their own assigning them meanings by seeing similar looking words at some other places. I will try to make terms simpler by defining or giving their meanings and connotations they add to the sentences.

But you just see that there are 58 pages discussion where our sister moderator is very active, discussion is going on and on without firt determining the meanings of words which is neither a noun nor an idiom but a complete sentence. Even for English word [oaths] used making it the  premises of the thread none cares to see whether it is abstract or a substantive noun.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: savage_carrot on July 24, 2012, 10:26:03 PM
Perhaps, I have to bring in the grammar with those posts where some friends of the forum handle Ayah at their own assigning them meanings by seeing similar looking words at some other places. I will try to make terms simpler by defining or giving their meanings and connotations they add to the sentences.

But you just see that there are 58 pages discussion where our sister moderator is very active, discussion is going on and on without firt determining the meanings of words which is neither a noun nor an idiom but a complete sentence. Even for English word [oaths] used making it the  premises of the thread none cares to see whether it is abstract or a substantive noun.

You wound me Mazhar, deeply :p  Discussion goes on for different reasons...in the case of that thread in particular I already have notes regarding the subject 'grammatically'; (neither did I read most of your posts or most of the other posters on that thread) I like discussing from different angles. Not only does it broaden my understanding, but it also helps me tear it down to basics via reasoning as opposed to myopic examinations when confronted with another pov regardless of it being 'crazy talk'. It's more rigid for you, I can appreciate that (mmkhan, this time I finally might be appreciating the right thing)...but don't think that other people should always discuss in ways that you'd heartily approve of.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 25, 2012, 03:40:29 AM
Well, I will try to give you some others aayaats to see how they are constructed.

40:28 وَ قَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤۡمِنٌ ٭ۖ مِّنۡ اٰلِ فِرۡعَوۡنَ یَکۡتُمُ اِیۡمَانَہٗۤ اَتَقۡتُلُوۡنَ رَجُلًا اَنۡ یَّقُوۡلَ رَبِّیَ اللّٰہُ وَ قَدۡ جَآءَکُمۡ بِالۡبَیِّنٰتِ مِنۡ رَّبِّکُمۡ ؕ وَ اِنۡ یَّکُ کَاذِبًا فَعَلَیۡہِ کَذِبُہٗ ۚ وَ اِنۡ یَّکُ صَادِقًا یُّصِبۡکُمۡ بَعۡضُ الَّذِیۡ یَعِدُکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ لَا یَہۡدِیۡ مَنۡ ہُوَ مُسۡرِفٌ کَذَّابٌ
40:28 And a believing man said who was from the family of Pharaoh who concealed his faith, "Do you kill a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah ' while he has brought you clear proofs from your Lord? And if he should be lying, then upon him is his lie; but if he should be truthful, there will strike you some of what he promises you. Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar.

40:29 یٰقَوۡمِ لَکُمُ الۡمُلۡکُ الۡیَوۡمَ ظٰہِرِیۡنَ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ۫ فَمَنۡ یَّنۡصُرُنَا مِنۡۢ بَاۡسِ اللّٰہِ اِنۡ جَآءَنَا ؕ قَالَ فِرۡعَوۡنُ مَاۤ اُرِیۡکُمۡ اِلَّا مَاۤ اَرٰی وَ مَاۤ اَہۡدِیۡکُمۡ اِلَّا سَبِیۡلَ الرَّشَادِ
40:29 O my people, sovereignty is yours today, dominant in the land. But who would protect us from the punishment of Allah if it came to us?" Pharaoh said, "I do not show you except what I see, and I do not guide you except to the way of right conduct."

40:30 وَ قَالَ الَّذِیۡۤ اٰمَنَ یٰقَوۡمِ اِنِّیۡۤ اَخَافُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ مِّثۡلَ یَوۡمِ الۡاَحۡزَابِ
40:30 And he who believed said, "O my people, indeed I fear for you like the day of the companies

40:31 مِثۡلَ دَاۡبِ قَوۡمِ نُوۡحٍ وَّ عَادٍ وَّ ثَمُوۡدَ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡۢ بَعۡدِہِمۡ ؕ وَ مَا اللّٰہُ یُرِیۡدُ ظُلۡمًا لِّلۡعِبَادِ
40:31 Like the custom of the people of Nooh and of 'Aad and Thamud and those after them. And Allah wants no injustice for  servants.

40:32 وَ یٰقَوۡمِ اِنِّیۡۤ اَخَافُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ یَوۡمَ التَّنَادِ
40:32 And O my people, indeed I fear for you the Day of Calling

When it is mentioned that the one who believed started saying in 40:28, then what is use of repeating it by saying "the one who believed said" in 40:30? Why no subject pronoun is used?

When already it is said in "yaa qaumi" in 40:29, why is it necessary to use the same word in 40:30 and 40:32, where we already know whom this person is addressing.

What your grammar says on this?

Another example:

33:30 یٰنِسَآءَ النَّبِیِّ مَنۡ یَّاۡتِ مِنۡکُنَّ بِفَاحِشَۃٍ مُّبَیِّنَۃٍ یُّضٰعَفۡ لَہَا الۡعَذَابُ ضِعۡفَیۡنِ ؕ وَ کَانَ ذٰلِکَ عَلَی اللّٰہِ یَسِیۡرًا
33:30 O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah , easy.

33:31 وَ مَنۡ یَّقۡنُتۡ مِنۡکُنَّ لِلّٰہِ وَ رَسُوۡلِہٖ وَ تَعۡمَلۡ صَالِحًا نُّؤۡتِہَاۤ اَجۡرَہَا مَرَّتَیۡنِ ۙ وَ اَعۡتَدۡنَا لَہَا رِزۡقًا کَرِیۡمًا
33:31 And whoever of you [feminine] devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness - We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a noble provision.

33:32 یٰنِسَآءَ النَّبِیِّ لَسۡتُنَّ کَاَحَدٍ مِّنَ النِّسَآءِ اِنِ اتَّقَیۡتُنَّ فَلَا تَخۡضَعۡنَ بِالۡقَوۡلِ فَیَطۡمَعَ الَّذِیۡ فِیۡ قَلۡبِہٖ مَرَضٌ وَّ قُلۡنَ قَوۡلًا مَّعۡرُوۡفًا
33:32 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.

Now, please educate me Mazhar with you grammar.

1- Who is mentioned in 33:31, if you say, they are referring to wives of the prophet, then why 33:32 again used "O wives of the prophet"?

2- If you say, they are referring not to wives of the prophet, but it is general for all, then why you are mixing up 2:55 and 2:67?


Other points we will discuss later after clarifying this first, inshaAllah. Other points also includes Bani Israel is different than Musa's qaum.

May Allah increase me in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 04:21:40 AM
Well, I will try to give you some others aayaats to see how they are constructed.

40:28 وَ قَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤۡمِنٌ ٭ۖ مِّنۡ اٰلِ فِرۡعَوۡنَ یَکۡتُمُ اِیۡمَانَہٗۤ اَتَقۡتُلُوۡنَ رَجُلًا اَنۡ یَّقُوۡلَ رَبِّیَ اللّٰہُ وَ قَدۡ جَآءَکُمۡ بِالۡبَیِّنٰتِ مِنۡ رَّبِّکُمۡ ؕ وَ اِنۡ یَّکُ کَاذِبًا فَعَلَیۡہِ کَذِبُہٗ ۚ وَ اِنۡ یَّکُ صَادِقًا یُّصِبۡکُمۡ بَعۡضُ الَّذِیۡ یَعِدُکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ لَا یَہۡدِیۡ مَنۡ ہُوَ مُسۡرِفٌ کَذَّابٌ
40:28 And a believing man said who was from the family of Pharaoh who concealed his faith, "Do you kill a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah ' while he has brought you clear proofs from your Lord? And if he should be lying, then upon him is his lie; but if he should be truthful, there will strike you some of what he promises you. Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar.

40:29 یٰقَوۡمِ لَکُمُ الۡمُلۡکُ الۡیَوۡمَ ظٰہِرِیۡنَ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ۫ فَمَنۡ یَّنۡصُرُنَا مِنۡۢ بَاۡسِ اللّٰہِ اِنۡ جَآءَنَا ؕ قَالَ فِرۡعَوۡنُ مَاۤ اُرِیۡکُمۡ اِلَّا مَاۤ اَرٰی وَ مَاۤ اَہۡدِیۡکُمۡ اِلَّا سَبِیۡلَ الرَّشَادِ
40:29 O my people, sovereignty is yours today, dominant in the land. But who would protect us from the punishment of Allah if it came to us?" Pharaoh said, "I do not show you except what I see, and I do not guide you except to the way of right conduct."

40:30 وَ قَالَ الَّذِیۡۤ اٰمَنَ یٰقَوۡمِ اِنِّیۡۤ اَخَافُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ مِّثۡلَ یَوۡمِ الۡاَحۡزَابِ
40:30 And he who believed said, "O my people, indeed I fear for you like the day of the companies

40:31 مِثۡلَ دَاۡبِ قَوۡمِ نُوۡحٍ وَّ عَادٍ وَّ ثَمُوۡدَ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡۢ بَعۡدِہِمۡ ؕ وَ مَا اللّٰہُ یُرِیۡدُ ظُلۡمًا لِّلۡعِبَادِ
40:31 Like the custom of the people of Nooh and of 'Aad and Thamud and those after them. And Allah wants no injustice for  servants.

40:32 وَ یٰقَوۡمِ اِنِّیۡۤ اَخَافُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ یَوۡمَ التَّنَادِ
40:32 And O my people, indeed I fear for you the Day of Calling

When it is mentioned that the one who believed started saying in 40:28, then what is use of repeating it by saying "the one who believed said" in 40:30? Why no subject pronoun is used?

When already it is said in "yaa qaumi" in 40:29, why is it necessary to use the same word in 40:30 and 40:32, where we already know whom this person is addressing.

What your grammar says on this?

Another example:

33:30 یٰنِسَآءَ النَّبِیِّ مَنۡ یَّاۡتِ مِنۡکُنَّ بِفَاحِشَۃٍ مُّبَیِّنَۃٍ یُّضٰعَفۡ لَہَا الۡعَذَابُ ضِعۡفَیۡنِ ؕ وَ کَانَ ذٰلِکَ عَلَی اللّٰہِ یَسِیۡرًا
33:30 O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah , easy.

33:31 وَ مَنۡ یَّقۡنُتۡ مِنۡکُنَّ لِلّٰہِ وَ رَسُوۡلِہٖ وَ تَعۡمَلۡ صَالِحًا نُّؤۡتِہَاۤ اَجۡرَہَا مَرَّتَیۡنِ ۙ وَ اَعۡتَدۡنَا لَہَا رِزۡقًا کَرِیۡمًا
33:31 And whoever of you [feminine] devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness - We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a noble provision.

33:32 یٰنِسَآءَ النَّبِیِّ لَسۡتُنَّ کَاَحَدٍ مِّنَ النِّسَآءِ اِنِ اتَّقَیۡتُنَّ فَلَا تَخۡضَعۡنَ بِالۡقَوۡلِ فَیَطۡمَعَ الَّذِیۡ فِیۡ قَلۡبِہٖ مَرَضٌ وَّ قُلۡنَ قَوۡلًا مَّعۡرُوۡفًا
33:32 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.

Now, please educate me Mazhar with you grammar.

1- Who is mentioned in 33:31, if you say, they are referring to wives of the prophet, then why 33:32 again used "O wives of the prophet"?

2- If you say, they are referring not to wives of the prophet, but it is general for all, then why you are mixing up 2:55 and 2:67?


Other points we will discuss later after clarifying this first, inshaAllah. Other points also includes Bani Israel is different than Musa's qaum.

May Allah increase me in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

Please let me know what are you presuming from all these quotes that they refer to.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 04:34:38 AM
You wound me Mazhar, deeply :p  Discussion goes on for different reasons...in the case of that thread in particular I already have notes regarding the subject 'grammatically'; (neither did I read most of your posts or most of the other posters on that thread) I like discussing from different angles. Not only does it broaden my understanding, but it also helps me tear it down to basics via reasoning as opposed to myopic examinations when confronted with another pov regardless of it being 'crazy talk'. It's more rigid for you, I can appreciate that (mmkhan, this time I finally might be appreciating the right thing)...but don't think that other people should always discuss in ways that you'd heartily approve of.

Sorry, you took it in that direction, it was just informative--prompt to read you there--- argumentative--away from baseless thread issue. I know you were busy on specific issues ignoring other posts. Never feel wound, even negative propaganda earns attention for the rightful person.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: savage_carrot on July 25, 2012, 04:52:43 AM
Sorry, you took it in that direction, it was just informative--prompt to read you there--- argumentative--away from baseless thread issue. I know you were busy on specific issues ignoring other posts. Never feel wound, even negative propaganda earns attention for the rightful person.
I was kidding with the wounding, no worries... and point well understood and completely agreed, I mentioned it on the thread a few times myself ;)
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 25, 2012, 05:01:49 AM
Please let me know what are you presuming from all these quotes that they refer to.

After aayaats quoted, there are some questions asked about your understanding. Didn't you read them? Please check again and get back with you answers.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 05:21:28 AM
After aayaats quoted, there are some questions asked about your understanding. Didn't you read them? Please check again and get back with you answers.

I have seen those. I want what you intend to interpret finding those reiteration. It is the speakers choice to reiterate the qualitative trait of a person through relative pronouns or personal pronouns. Read about emphasis, rhetoric etc.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 25, 2012, 05:37:37 AM
I have seen those. I want what you intend to interpret finding those reiteration. It is the speakers choice to reiterate the qualitative trait of a person through relative pronouns or personal pronouns. Read about emphasis, rhetoric etc.

But AlQuraan is not about speakers choice, it is The Book of guidance. Every letter/word has been specifically added.

OK, please tell me who is mentioned in 33:31?

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 06:44:52 AM
Quote
I have seen those. I want what you intend to interpret finding those reiteration. It is the speakers choice to reiterate the qualitative trait of a person through relative pronouns or personal pronouns. Read about emphasis, rhetoric etc.

Quote
But AlQuraan is not about speakers choice, it is The Book of guidance. Every letter/word has been specifically added.

OK, please tell me who is mentioned in 33:31?

Dear, what is wrong with you, you do not let even simple things enter your mind and keep circling around what thoughts have veiled your intellect about a certain issue like pronouns here.

Every book, including Qur'aan is a spoken word of a speaker. It was His choice how he selected relative pronouns or personal pronouns. For that you need to know minimum emphasis aspect, rhetoric. 

In 33:31 are solely and exclusively the honourable wives of the Elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on July 25, 2012, 12:18:24 PM
Dear, what is wrong with you, you do not let even simple things enter your mind and keep circling around what thoughts have veiled your intellect about a certain issue like pronouns here.

Every book, including Qur'aan is a spoken word of a speaker. It was His choice how he selected relative pronouns or personal pronouns. For that you need to know minimum emphasis aspect, rhetoric. 

In 33:31 are solely and exclusively the honourable wives of the Elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted.

I think you always forget that AlQuraan is a guidance for MANKIND, not only for scholars or the ones having good command on language. How is it a guidance for the naas? All aayaats are set on patterns and designs for lay man [like me] to compare and understand the usage of different aayaats.

It is not a choice simply to fill the Book, but it has been purposely set in that pattern to show you something and guide you, etc.

Now, if 33:31 is about Messenger's wives, then why again 33:32 used "yaa nisaa alnabiyyi" when it is already in context as per your understanding? There is surely a reason for such usage. When you make your mind blank [without recalling your previous knowledge], inshaAllah, you will see what I am trying to say.

May Allah increase me in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 12:34:24 PM
I think you always forget that AlQuraan is a guidance for MANKIND, not only for scholars or the ones having good command on language. How is it a guidance for the naas? All aayaats are set on patterns and designs for lay man [like me] to compare and understand the usage of different aayaats.

It is not a choice simply to fill the Book, but it has been purposely set in that pattern to show you something and guide you, etc.

Now, if 33:31 is about Messenger's wives, then why again 33:32 used "yaa nisaa alnabiyyi" when it is already in context as per your understanding? There is surely a reason for such usage. When you make your mind blank [without recalling your previous knowledge], inshaAllah, you will see what I am trying to say.

May Allah increase me in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

Dear, the day you understand how the text of Arabic of Qur'aan flows, where the discourse ends, and where a new discourse starts not to be linked with the earlier statements, you might know the beauty of Ayah 32:32 starting with a fresh call seeking attention of them and then breaking the news about their status and position amongst the woman folk of all times.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Maha on July 25, 2012, 02:02:39 PM
Did you try to explain me your point? NO!
Did you try to give me an example? NO!
Did you try to show me an aayat to explain your point? NO!
Then what you were doing? You know exactly what you were doing already.

Anyways, as per my understanding

Mazher always try to convince mmKhan without bringing forward any proof. He always do that to me.

As per the above sentence, "Mazher" is Subject and "mmKhan" is Object. And "He" is subject pronoun and "me" is object pronoun.

Am I correct sir? If not, please correct me and then put forward your point. If I am right, then what is your point?


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

Just want to thank you for giving me a lot of food for thought. I never really considered this issue before reading your post, but i will now definately check your references up and make up my mind, because you have discussed some very important things. It really seems like either that it wasnt muhammed who came with the quran as per the traditional islamic belief, and/or muhammed is a title and not a name.

And please dont limit yourself due to Mazhars (sunni) agenda. Please keep posting about the issue.

Peace
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
Quote
Just want to thank you for giving me a lot of food for thought.

Kindly share that food with us so that we could also benefit intake:

(1)
(2)..., if more
(3)
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Maha on July 25, 2012, 04:48:28 PM
Kindly share that food with us so that we could also benefit intake:

(1)
(2)..., if more
(3)

Read my whole post, and you will see that I explained it further. I dont have time enough to repeat myself.

Peace
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 05:04:38 PM
We have experience of many members who kept posting meaningless talks or clapping but never to substantiate. And then went away. Obviously rubbish cant be substantiated.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Maha on July 25, 2012, 05:09:07 PM
We have experience of many members who kept posting meaningless talks or clapping but never to substantiate. And then went away. Obviously rubbish cant be substantiated.

Frankly Mazhar, I find it VERY difficult to understand what you are talking about. And I just never get your point. And I know that others here also find it difficult to understand you as well. In any case, I was waiting for brother mmkhan to share more of his thoughts. If you could kindly stop posting, you would save everyones time.

Peace
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 25, 2012, 05:43:39 PM
I know self adopted stupidity is deep rooted in all cells of the brain. But there is no harm trying.

 نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ  بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنجِيلَ
مِن قَبْلُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ  يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْأَغْلاَلَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِي أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ  أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

إِنَّ اللّهَ اشْتَرَى مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُم بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الجَنَّةَ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنجِيلِ وَالْقُرْآنِ  وَمَنْ أَوْفَى بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللّهِ فَاسْتَبْشِرُواْ بِبَيْعِكُمُ الَّذِي بَايَعْتُم بِهِ وَذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: GODsubmitter on July 26, 2012, 05:19:52 AM
"His Qaum" denotes none else but Bani Israel. And the entire discourse is about reminding the Bani Israel of their past history.

I agree

The whole Qur'an is but the reminder for the Bani Israel and followers of Jesus, and it doesn't bring anything new which is not already in the Torah! Present Islam is but an invention of men as a new innovation, same as Christianity.
Jesus was the most perfect Jew, same as Moses who is the greatest prophet of them all.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: GODsubmitter on July 26, 2012, 05:24:48 AM
So, could we keep up the subject gentlemen , and do try to answer the question:

Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!!

(do try to answer without old or new hadiths),

 thank you
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 26, 2012, 05:53:49 AM
Quote
The whole Qur'an is but the reminder for the Bani Israel


Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever. They were cursed also by Dawood alahisalam and Easa alahissalam.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on July 26, 2012, 06:15:43 AM


Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever. They were cursed also by Dawood alahisalam and Easa alahissalam.

Salaam,

 :hypno:

From where did you got this wrong understanding? 
Can you please give us some verses to support your understanding?
Please don't quote 5:78  :nope:

And who are Bani Israel according you?
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Maha on July 26, 2012, 07:08:18 AM
I agree

The whole Qur'an is but the reminder for the Bani Israel and followers of Jesus, and it doesn't bring anything new which is not already in the Torah! Present Islam is but an invention of men as a new innovation, same as Christianity.
Jesus was the most perfect Jew, same as Moses who is the greatest prophet of them all.

That may seems to mean that Quran was written shortly after Jesus death .
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Maha on July 26, 2012, 07:10:59 AM


Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever. They were cursed also by Dawood alahisalam and Easa alahissalam.

Lol. :rotfl: David and Jesus were both from Bani Israel so it's hard to believe that They cursed themselves . Please use your brain.

Peace .
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on July 26, 2012, 08:03:20 AM
Lol. :rotfl: David and Jesus were both from Bani Israel so it's hard to believe that They cursed themselves . Please use your brain.

Peace .

The job of the jokers is to laugh and make people laugh mostly thru stupid things.

Ease alahissalam did not belong to Bani Israel. He is not from that Qaum-nation. He was son of Syeda Maryam.

Dawud alahissalam was the Messenger to Bani Israel. He also cursed those of his nation Bani Israel who did not believe.

لُعِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَلَى لِسَانِ دَاوُودَ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ ذَلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُواْ يَعْتَدُونَ  [5:48]
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: 357 on July 26, 2012, 08:54:58 AM
So, could we keep up the subject gentlemen , and do try to answer the question:

Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!!

(do try to answer without old or new hadiths),

 thank you

Try this...........if you have time.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600004.msg239942#msg239942

 :peace:
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: GODsubmitter on July 26, 2012, 12:26:49 PM
Thank you so much brother @357!

It is utterly interesting and informative!

Thank you for the links and threads, don't know how would I be able to find them otherwise.

 :peace:
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Wakas on December 31, 2012, 03:35:02 PM
Just read the first post. The evidence presented is very poor in my view.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on December 31, 2012, 04:32:04 PM
Quote
Just read the first post. The evidence presented is very poor in my view.

Salaam,

I was wondering who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab, but could not find any answer from AlQuraan till now. But Allah has shown me something just now, lets take a look at it.

69:40 اِنَّہٗ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُوۡلٍ کَرِیۡمٍ
69:40 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

81:19 اِنَّہٗ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُوۡلٍ کَرِیۡمٍ
81:19 Indeed, it is surely a speech of a noble Messenger.

Who is this Rasoolin Kareem [a noble Messenger]?

Some say, he is Jibraeel - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Jibraeel is a Rasoolin Kareem.

Some say, he is Muhammed - There is no evidence from AlQuraan that Muhammed is a Rasoolin Kareem.

No other choice left. But no body ever think, whom Allah called a Rasoolin Kareem. Can you guess? Try!! OK! Please check 44:17

44:17 وَ لَقَدۡ فَتَنَّا قَبۡلَہُمۡ قَوۡمَ فِرۡعَوۡنَ وَ جَآءَہُمۡ رَسُوۡلٌ کَرِیۡمٌ
44:17 And We had already tried before them the people of Pharaoh, and there came to them a noble messenger.

A Noble Messenger is with "M", that is not Muhammed, not Me either  but that is Musa. This is only messenger called Rasoolin Kareem in AlQuraan.


One word قَبۡلَہُمۡ suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread.

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on December 31, 2012, 06:14:10 PM
One word قَبۡلَہُمۡ suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread.

How ? Will you please explain?

And what does قَبۡلَہُمۡ means as per your understanding?


May Allah guide us to His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2013, 02:35:22 AM
How ? Will you please explain?

And what does قَبۡلَہُمۡ means as per your understanding?


May Allah guide us to His path :pr
mmKhan

 فَتَنَّا قَبْلَهُمْ قَوْمَ فِرْعَوْنَ

?قَبْلَهُمْ? ظرف زمان ?قَوْمَ? مفعول به ?فِرْعَوْنَ? مضاف إليه

Pronoun Hum refers to the people whom Qur'aan addressed and before them in time line were the nation of Pharoah.

وَجَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ كَرِيمٌ

Pronoun Hum refers to the people  قَوْمَ فِرْعَوْنَ . Subject of verb, that is who came to them is رَسُولٌ. It is indefinite noun therefore needs to be made somewhat specific so كَرِيمٌ  adjectival صفة رسول  makes it specified. This is an episode of long time back than the people referred by قَبْلَهُمْ? ظرف زمان.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Solomon on January 01, 2013, 02:54:31 AM
Salam mmKhan,

This is my post in another topic regarding the issue. I'm posting it here:

 You do have a point from the Quranic perspective that Quran was given to Moses, not Muhammad. This view has some support in historical records because some manuscripts from the very early period of Islam (7th century) shows that the Saracens/Muhageerens/Hagarenes/Ishmaelites (today's "muslims") had very good relations with the Jews of the time. The jews were even fighting alongside the Muslims. Apparently, the hostility between Jews and muslims started after AbdulMalik ibn Marwan and gained full traction during Abbasid period when hadiths such as those which prophecise killing jews were invented.

However the first question that comes to my mind is how come the quran discusses about Jesus, Mary, Zachariah, hijrah (emigration), Yathrib, Mecca and other concepts that came after Moses? Also, how come quranic manuscripts older than 7th century has not been found as the bible has been?
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: GODsubmitter on January 01, 2013, 10:21:27 AM
Salam mmKhan,

This is my post in another topic regarding the issue. I'm posting it here:

 You do have a point from the Quranic perspective that Quran was given to Moses, not Muhammad. This view has some support in historical records because some manuscripts from the very early period of Islam (7th century) shows that the Saracens/Muhageerens/Hagarenes/Ishmaelites (today's "muslims") had very good relations with the Jews of the time. The jews were even fighting alongside the Muslims. Apparently, the hostility between Jews and muslims started after AbdulMalik ibn Marwan and gained full traction during Abbasid period when hadiths such as those which prophecise killing jews were invented.

However the first question that comes to my mind is how come the quran discusses about Jesus, Mary, Zachariah, hijrah (emigration), Yathrib, Mecca and other concepts that came after Moses? Also, how come quranic manuscripts older than 7th century has not been found as the bible has been?

Very interesting post...
But I think no Bible in its entirety was found before 7th C either... just some scattered scrolls in Hebrew I think...
And the oldest complete Hebrew Bible is from 10th century I think... (if you want I can gather the proofs and data again)
That's what made me think at one point that the Qur'an might be even earlier Scripture then the Bible... :)
But then, historicity and linal perception of time is not such a serious category... ;)
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on January 01, 2013, 02:32:44 PM
However the first question that comes to my mind is how come the quran discusses about Jesus, Mary, Zachariah, hijrah (emigration), Yathrib, Mecca and other concepts that came after Moses? Also, how come quranic manuscripts older than 7th century has not been found as the bible has been?

Salaam Borakk,

Please take a look at my reply#10 of this thread or click here (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604108.msg302202#msg302202). And regarding Eisa, Maryam, Zachariayya, I think they all are available at the same time of Musa as per 19:28. And Yathrib, Makkah etc, are not referring to physical places as per my understanding.

Red: I cannot say anything about manuscripts, they might have destroyed and that is not important as a part of this discussion.

If alQuraan was given to Musa in writing, it might have given in parts. For example, one task was given to Musa, like going to Firaun, then their communication, etc. is mentioned in writing and given to Musa and so on. This is how I think now.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on January 01, 2013, 02:38:20 PM
فَتَنَّا قَبْلَهُمْ قَوْمَ فِرْعَوْنَ

?قَبْلَهُمْ? ظرف زمان ?قَوْمَ? مفعول به ?فِرْعَوْنَ? مضاف إليه

Pronoun Hum refers to the people whom Qur'aan addressed and before them in time line were the nation of Pharoah.

وَجَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ كَرِيمٌ

Pronoun Hum refers to the people  قَوْمَ فِرْعَوْنَ . Subject of verb, that is who came to them is رَسُولٌ. It is indefinite noun therefore needs to be made somewhat specific so كَرِيمٌ  adjectival صفة رسول  makes it specified. This is an episode of long time back than the people referred by قَبْلَهُمْ? ظرف زمان.

Yes, so what is the problem here? How is this support what you said "One word قَبۡلَہُمۡ suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread."?

If you read my opening post, it already clearly said that this is referring to qawme firaun.

I think, you misunderstood the concept of this thread. Please re-read it.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2013, 03:59:44 PM
Yes, so what is the problem here? How is this support what you said "One word قَبۡلَہُمۡ suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread."?

If you read my opening post, it already clearly said that this is referring to qawme firaun.

I think, you misunderstood the concept of this thread. Please re-read it.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path :pr
mmKhan

I am talking about the pronoun in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ and not hum of verb Jaahum. This hum in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ is for the people to whom Qur'aan was addressing. 
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on January 02, 2013, 03:47:56 PM
I am talking about the pronoun in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ and not hum of verb Jaahum. This hum in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ is for the people to whom Qur'aan was addressing.

Red: Who are those people whom alQuraan was addressing in قَبۡلَہُمۡ ?
Title: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on May 21, 2013, 05:45:06 PM
Salaam,

One of our forum members said this today about this thread.

Quote
The thread which you've referred above, clearly shows your fallacies and how you've failed to reply to the arguments which Mazhar has put forward against yours.

I confess that I was wrong about 2:55 and 2:61 in this thread while discussing with Mazhar. But now Allah has corrected me as usual, alhamduliAllah :hail

I should also admit that I was asking for simple aayat to explain me [to Mazhar] that why I am wrong, but he want me to learn English grammar, then pronouns, then adverbs, then emphasis, rhetoric to see how I am wrong. Instead, he would have shown me in a simple manner what I was asking him. Anyways the simple way Allah guided me is with اِذۡ and اِذَا.

اِذۡ is used for past in alQuraan.
اِذَا is used for present and future in alQuraan.

Simple as that. Both 2:55 and 2:61 used اِذۡ hence referring to past.

But, this isn't effecting my opening post in anyways.



Update on the opening thread:

Q. To whom alQuraan was given?
A. alQuraan was NOT GIVEN to anyone.

Here it is how...

alKitaab was given to Musa, then
Zuboor was given to Dawood, then

Compilation of alKitaab given to Musa + Zuboor given to Dawood = Tawraat, then

Tawraat was available with Eisa, then
Eisa was given Injeel, then

Compilation of Tawraat + Injeel given to Eisa = alQuraan.

This is because,
alKitaab was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Musa - 17:2 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=2) and 7:144 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=7&verse=144)
Zaboor was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Dawood - 4:163 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=163)
Tawraat was REVEALED - 5:44 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=44) [please note, it was not GIVEN]
Injeel was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Eisa - 5:46 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=46) and 57:27 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=57&verse=27)
alQuraan was REVEALED - 2:185 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=2) [please not, it was not GIVEN]

This is how I understand it... Please note that this is my personal understanding, study the aayaat quoted by clicking on it's numbers. Hope this may help at least some people inshaAllah.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2013, 05:19:26 AM
Salaam,

But, this isn't effecting my opening post in anyways.



Update on the opening thread:

Q. To whom alQuraan was given?
A. alQuraan was NOT GIVEN to anyone.

Here it is how...

alKitaab was given to Musa, then
Zuboor was given to Dawood, then

Compilation of alKitaab given to Musa + Zuboor given to Dawood = Tawraat, then

Tawraat was available with Eisa, then
Eisa was given Injeel, then

Compilation of Tawraat + Injeel given to Eisa = alQuraan.

This is because,
alKitaab was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Musa - 17:2 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=2) and 7:144 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=7&verse=144)
Zaboor was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Dawood - 4:163 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=163)
Tawraat was REVEALED - 5:44 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=44) [please note, it was not GIVEN]
Injeel was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Eisa - 5:46 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=46) and 57:27 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=57&verse=27)
alQuraan was REVEALED - 2:185 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=2) [please not, it was not GIVEN]

This is how I understand it... Please note that this is my personal understanding, study the aayaat quoted by clicking on it's numbers. Hope this may help at least some people inshaAllah.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Salamun alaika,

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَاكَ  سَبْعًا مِّنَ الْمَثَانِي وَالْقُرْآنَ الْعَظِيمَ  
Title: Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on May 22, 2013, 07:38:29 AM
Salamun alaika,

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَاكَ  سَبْعًا مِّنَ الْمَثَانِي وَالْقُرْآنَ الْعَظِيمَ  

Salaamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

15:87 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=87) وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=87) And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 3:3 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=3).

3:3 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=3) نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکَ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَ اَنۡزَلَ التَّوۡرٰىۃَ وَ الۡاِنۡجِیۡلَ
3:3 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=3) He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Tawraat and the Injeel.

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59).

4:59 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59) یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡۤا اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ اُولِی الۡاَمۡرِ مِنۡکُمۡ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَنَازَعۡتُمۡ فِیۡ شَیۡءٍ فَرُدُّوۡہُ اِلَی اللّٰہِ وَ الرَّسُوۡلِ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِاللّٰہِ وَ الۡیَوۡمِ الۡاٰخِرِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ خَیۡرٌ وَّ اَحۡسَنُ تَاۡوِیۡلًا
4:59 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.

Please note that the word atiy3oo is used before the word 'Allah' and before the word 'alRasool' but atiy3oo is missing before the words 'those in authority among you'. This means, we are not asked to atiy3oo [obey] those who are in authority among you, but they also have to obey Allah and obey alRasool.

Similarly you can clearly find difference between 3:32 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) and 5:92 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=92).

3:32 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) قُلۡ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ الرَّسُوۡلَ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰہَ لَا یُحِبُّ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ
3:32 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

5:92 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=92) وَ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ احۡذَرُوۡا ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّیۡتُمۡ فَاعۡلَمُوۡۤا اَنَّمَا عَلٰی رَسُوۡلِنَا الۡبَلٰغُ الۡمُبِیۡنُ
5:92 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=92) And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away ? then know that upon Our Messenger is only clear notification.

This is a clear difference, in 3:32 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) atiy3oo is missing before alRasool. Once we understand this pattern of alQuraan, you will understand that aataiyna is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem in 15:87 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=87). If not, then there must be some other aayaat which will clarify that alQuraan was given and I don't find any. Please share if you find.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2013, 08:27:51 AM
Quote
laamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 3:3.

Salamun alaika,

The sentence in translation and the inference are contradictory. Please try reconciling it.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on May 22, 2013, 09:12:16 AM
Salamun alaika,

The sentence in translation and the inference are contradictory. Please try reconciling it.

Salaamun a3laika,

I don't find it is difficult to understand what wrote. Anyways, here it is..

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

I mean that orange part is referring to blue part only and not the red part.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2013, 09:44:09 AM
Salaamun a3laika,

I don't find it is difficult to understand what wrote. Anyways, here it is..

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

I mean that orange part is referring to blue part only and not the red part.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Salamun alaika,

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences:
1) We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
2) We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

By combining these two sentences with conjunction "and" you have done the economy of one "We have certainly given you".

One thing more; in english your first sentence is incomplete --hence meaningless for the reader.

Please read about conjunctions in the grammar of any language to know how sentences are structured using conjunctions to avoid repetition of words for succintness.

Please don't mind when I suggest you to read about grammar of the language. Sincerely, let me tell you that without knowing grammar you know nothing of the text of any language and will keep conjecturing and roaming in vacuum. 
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on May 22, 2013, 11:52:18 AM
Salamun alaika,

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences:
1) We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
2) We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

By combining these two sentences with conjunction "and" you have done the economy of one "We have certainly given you".

One thing more; in english your first sentence is incomplete --hence meaningless for the reader.

Please read about conjunctions in the grammar of any language to know how sentences are structured using conjunctions to avoid repetition of words for succintness.

Please don't mind when I suggest you to read about grammar of the language. Sincerely, let me tell you that without knowing grammar you know nothing of the text of any language and will keep conjecturing and roaming in vacuum.

Salaamun a3laika,

I am not surprised to see such a response from you, yes.

But please let me clarify the tricks you used to get favor from others or whatever.

- No one can? You should think about what you can, don't take burden on you of what others can.

- I replied in that way just to make clear what I wanted to say which you are fully aware of. And btw, it was not my sentence but it is a translation of an aayat of alQuraan which was translated by Sahih International, not me. Click on the aayat number in my previous post to confirm.

- Did I not given much evidences from alQuraan to support my point and you bring NONE?

- You already knew it that whether that sentence is incomplete or not, and again don't think about readers, but say, it is difficult for you to read and understand.

- Came up again with your big shield of learning grammar, thanks anyway for your advice, and please keep this tool to use it on others, I learned a lot about it, hence it is no more effecting me ;)

- No no no... I didn't mind it at all for sure... but would like to thank you for teaching me how to talk and trick people, and show ourselves clean [to others] and say everything that would like to.

Thank you Master Ji, for teaching me great lessons, but I suggest, please bring some new ones, old ones are already known ;)

Note: Please make it sure that it is my current understanding and it may change as Allah guides me.


May Allah show liars the place they deserve and guide US on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2013, 01:15:55 PM
Quote
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.



Quote
No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences:
1) We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
2) We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

Salamun alaika,

I stand by this post. Let one English native on this forum come forward and deny it. Or even put your sentence in some auto parser and see what it tells you back. It is not a random process when words are arranged in sentences; the rules of grammar must be adhered to.
Let some sane person put this claim that he has the miraculous power of comprehending and writing in non-native language without knowing abc of grammar of that language. Obviously sane persons are not fools. So I don't expect anybody coming forward on this forum to make this claim.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on May 22, 2013, 03:56:06 PM
Salaamun a3laika,

And here goes your translation of an aayat.

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 Moreover, the fact remains that We did give you the Messenger [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] Seven distinctly elaborative Aa'ya'at-Verbal Unitary Passages selected-excepted from the Binary-Symmetrical-analogous Miscellany. Moreover, it also remains a certain fact that We have given the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam].

This is what you were expecting? Sorry, I cannot dare to add my words to the word of Allah and cannot translate a single line aayat with 4 lines translation.

And what I wrote, even if it is grammatically wrong but, still you understood it. That is what important, no need write paragraphs.
Title: Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: The_Chimp on May 22, 2013, 06:46:52 PM
Salaamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

15:87 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=87) وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=87) And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 3:3 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=3).

3:3 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=3) نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکَ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَ اَنۡزَلَ التَّوۡرٰىۃَ وَ الۡاِنۡجِیۡلَ
3:3 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=3) He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Tawraat and the Injeel.

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59).

4:59 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59) یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡۤا اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ اُولِی الۡاَمۡرِ مِنۡکُمۡ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَنَازَعۡتُمۡ فِیۡ شَیۡءٍ فَرُدُّوۡہُ اِلَی اللّٰہِ وَ الرَّسُوۡلِ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِاللّٰہِ وَ الۡیَوۡمِ الۡاٰخِرِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ خَیۡرٌ وَّ اَحۡسَنُ تَاۡوِیۡلًا
4:59 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.

Please note that the word atiy3oo is used before the word 'Allah' and before the word 'alRasool' but atiy3oo is missing before the words 'those in authority among you'. This means, we are not asked to atiy3oo [obey] those who are in authority among you, but they also have to obey Allah and obey alRasool.

Similarly you can clearly find difference between 3:32 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) and 5:92 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=92).

3:32 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) قُلۡ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ الرَّسُوۡلَ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰہَ لَا یُحِبُّ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ
3:32 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

5:92 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=92) وَ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ احۡذَرُوۡا ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّیۡتُمۡ فَاعۡلَمُوۡۤا اَنَّمَا عَلٰی رَسُوۡلِنَا الۡبَلٰغُ الۡمُبِیۡنُ
5:92 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=92) And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away ? then know that upon Our Messenger is only clear notification.

This is a clear difference, in 3:32 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=32) atiy3oo is missing before alRasool. Once we understand this pattern of alQuraan, you will understand that aataiyna is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem in 15:87 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=87). If not, then there must be some other aayaat which will clarify that alQuraan was given and I don't find any. Please share if you find.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Hi,

I have read many of your posts mmKhan - I get the feeling your understanding of Arabic is very weak. This is incorrect:

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59).

In Arabic if the Verb is mentioned before then it takes singular form, even if the the Subject is plural. Here the verb applies to both Toran and Injeel.

You also say:

"اِذۡ is used for past in alQuraan.
اِذَا is used for present and future in alQuraan."

But that is not correct. Iz is not just used for past tense - see verse 3:124.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmmm on June 01, 2013, 11:49:13 PM
To me it seems the "linguists" have taken the role of "the ulema", history repeats.
Title: Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on June 02, 2013, 01:30:15 AM
Hi,

I have read many of your posts mmKhan - I get the feeling your understanding of Arabic is very weak. This is incorrect:

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59 (http://free-minds.org/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=59).

In Arabic if the Verb is mentioned before then it takes singular form, even if the the Subject is plural. Here the verb applies to both Toran and Injeel.

You also say:

"اِذۡ is used for past in alQuraan.
اِذَا is used for present and future in alQuraan."

But that is not correct. Iz is not just used for past tense - see verse 3:124.

Hello Chimp,

Unfortunately you don't see how alQuraan speaks. Those are the patterns set by Allah for guidance to all humans. Which will be very easy for everyone to understand.

And brother the aayat you quoted 3:124, it needs to be rechecked. Please take a look again and see what you said.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: wrkmmn on June 02, 2013, 03:27:30 PM
Peace:

To MMKHAN:
Quran was given to Moses, not Muhammad? I thought I had heard the worst. So, this guy is trying to make people believe that thousands of Muslims forgot the name of the person who was preaching the Qur?an, this is utterly nonsensical. It is like saying that the injeel was not given Jesus, because in the gospels attributed to him he doesn't mentions his own name, and we will not believe his followers accusing them of forgetting, being that one of the most important things for believing in a message is believing in the messenger (when such is walking the earth). However, we believe the injeel was given to Jesus because the Qur?n says ?.....and we sent jesuss..... We gave him the Gospel...?. As conclusion, whose heart Gabriel brought the Quran to? ?your heart?, you meaning Mohammed's heart, not Moses's heart, not MMKhAN's heart?47:2..........والذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات وآمنوا بما نزل على محمد whereas those who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds, and have come to believe in what has been bestowed from on high on/over Muhamad. Of course, you have the right to argue that in both verses it doesn't specify what is being brought down or whose heart, but inventing that the heart is of Moses and Muhammad did not existed, is entering the dangerous ground of conjecture. tomorrow you will say that you are the prophet mentioned in the Quran.

As for you the disbelievers, you can wait for another revelation, where God will tell you ?and we sent Muhammad...We gave him the Quran? .


63:3 this, because [they profess that] they have attained to faith, whereas [inwardly] they deny the truth - and so, a seal has been set on their hearts so that they can no longer understand [what is true and what false].
63:4 Now when thou seest them, their outward appearance may please thee; and when they speak, thou art inclined to lend ear to what they say. [But though they may seem as sure of themselves] as if they were timbers [firmly] propped up, they think that every shout is [directed] against them. They are the [real] enemies [of all faith], so beware of them. [They deserve the imprecation,] "May God destroy them!" How perverted are their minds! (63:5) for, when they are told, "Come, the Apostle of God will pray [unto God] that you be forgiven", they turn their heads away, and thou canst see how they draw back in their false pride.


To GODSUBMITER:
Quote
Jesus was the most perfect Jew, same as Moses who is the greatest prophet of them all.

Saying that Jesus and Moses were perfect Jews is a very ignorant statement. Jews were and are only those who descended from the tribe of Judah, and those cursed by David and Jesus, and those who killed Jesus and have been in the category of disbelievers for a long time. On the other hand, Jesus and Moses were Levites, and they were true believers, and though some of the best, not perfect, for nobody is perfect but God. (Perfect Jews were the Pharisees and the Sadducees).



to BENDER:
Quote
?Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever?
From where did you got this wrong understanding? 
Can you please give us some verses to support your understanding?
Please don't quote 5:78

98:6Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth8 - [be they] from among
the people/family of the book or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
- will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.



To MAHA:
Quote
Lol David and Jesus were both from Bani Israel so it's hard to believe that They cursed themselves . Please use your brain.

Mattew 23:31-32 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Guess who has to use His/her brain.
Title: Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Noon waalqalami on June 02, 2013, 06:43:03 PM
Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed.

Peace --

5:47 ولىحكم and let judge اهل individuals الانجىل the injeel بما by what انزل anzala/descended الله the god فىه in it ومن and from لم not ىحكم rules بما by what انزل anzala/descended الله the god فاولىك so those هم are الفاسقون the disobeying
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 03, 2013, 03:03:48 AM
Peace:

to BENDER:
98:6Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth8 - [be they] from among
the people/family of the book or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
- will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.



Salaamun alayka,

Just for the case you missed on what I was replying:

member Godsubmitter: The whole Qur'an is but the reminder for the Bani Israel

member Mazhar to member Godsubmitter: Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever. They were cursed also by Dawood alahisalam and Easa alahissalam.  

member Bender to member Mazhar: From where did you got this wrong understanding? 
Can you please give us some verses to support your understanding?
Please don't quote 5:78
 

member wrkmmn to member Bender:  98:6Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth8 - [be they] from among
the people/family of the book or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
- will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.



a couple of things:

1) Godsubmitter was talking about BANI ISRAEL, Mazhar was talking about BANI ISRAEL, Bender was talkig about BANI ISRAEL, wrkmmm comes back with a verse about "those who are kafaru from AHL ALKITAAB and THE MUSHRIKS". 2 different things.

2) Even IF you take them as equals then quoting 98:6 is still a blank in this case. Maybe you missed the word "MIN", I know it's a small word BUT veeeeeery important  :yes
In reply 69 Mazhar realizes that he missed the word "MIN" when he made his statement to Godsubmiter in reply 65, so he corrects it in a subtle way by saying: "He also cursed those of his nation Bani Israel who did not believe"

3) Not sure if the translation you gave for 98:6 is yours but it's very bad. It does not say "or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God" 
There is no OR but AND, and there is no FROM AMONG THOSE WHO.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 03, 2013, 01:29:52 PM
Certain information about those of the People of Book and the Polytheists: idol worshippers who refused to accept and died in that state:
They will be forced in the scorching heat of the Hell-Prison.
They will reside therein perpetually.
They are truly the people who exposed themselves as disturbers of equilibrium-eternal truth. [98:06]

Prepositional phrase with Min relates to the elided circumstantial clause. It relates to continuation of the state of non-believing till the point in time of death. The embedded circumstantial clause is evident from other Ayah where it is said that they died while they were in the state of deniers by that point in time.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 04, 2013, 09:20:48 AM
Certain information about those of the People of Book and the Polytheists: idol worshippers who refused to accept and died in that state :
They will be forced in the scorching heat of the Hell-Prison.
They will reside therein perpetually.
They are truly the people who exposed themselves as disturbers of equilibrium-eternal truth. [98:06]

Salaamun alayka,

I really do not understand you Mazhar.
I assume that you translated "الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا " with the red highlight.
Why did you put it there while in arabic it is before "the People of Book"?
I really do not understand this  :tempt:

And NO it does not read: "those who refused to accept and died in that state from the People of Book AND those who refused to accept and died in that state from the Polytheists"
You can probably justify it with your grammar rules, but I assume you know very well that there is not a single ayaat in The Quran where some of the muskriks are set in a positive light.
Mushriks are always bad, and not only a couple of them but all of them.

Quote
Prepositional phrase with Min relates to the elided circumstantial clause. It relates to continuation of the state of non-believing till the point in time of death. The embedded circumstantial clause is evident from other Ayah where it is said that they died while they were in the state of deniers by that point in time.

I have no idea what you are saying here. I am sure that if one is able to write down such exotic sentences he must also be able to write also normal sentences so that eveybody can understand them.
"الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ " simply says that it ONLY refers to those who are kafaru from the People of Book, not all of them, just the ones who are kafaru. As simple as that.

GREEN: I like to know which verse.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 04, 2013, 12:09:18 PM
Quote
I really do not understand you Mazhar.
I assume that you translated "الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا " with the red highlight.
Why did you put it there while in arabic it is before "the People of Book"?
I really do not understand this

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ  فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

You did not colour one word, I have coloured it red:those

Quote
Certain information about those of the People of Book and the Polytheists: idol worshippers who refused to accept and died in that state :They will be forced in the scorching heat of the Hell-Prison.
They will reside therein perpetually.
They are truly the people who exposed themselves as disturbers of equilibrium-eternal truth. [98:06]

The linkage clause for the relative pronoun is one grammatical unit which is to be transferred as a unit in the target language taking care of its conventions. All of the People of Book and Mushrikeen are not mentioned but a subset of them who did the act signified by the verb which is the linkage clause of Allazeena-Those -- who.

If someone is today a Mushrik, tomorrow he can become a believer. He is not going to hell-prison subject to having met other condionalities of becoming a believer. Always remember to see the case endings of the words to determine their relationship with the preceding word. Mushrikeena is in genitive case. If they were a separate entity as another predicate of Inna then it has to be in nominative case.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 04, 2013, 12:30:29 PM
Quote
GREEN: I like to know which verse.

2:161; 3:91; 9:84; 9:125; 47:34

The certain fact about those who had deliberately denied to accept the belief;
and they died while they were determined-staunch rejecters-Non Believers:
The Condemnation-contemptuous discard by Allah the Exalted and the Angels and by men is collectively destined for such Non-Believers [on the Day of Judgment]. [2:161]
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 06, 2013, 02:50:08 PM
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ  فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

You did not colour one word, I have coloured it red:those

Salaamun alayka,

That is because of how you translated the verse, it's very difficult to connect your translation with the Arabic, but we had this discussion before.

Quote
The linkage clause for the relative pronoun is one grammatical unit which is to be transferred as a unit in the target language taking care of its conventions. All of the People of Book and Mushrikeen are not mentioned but a subset of them  who did the act signified by the verb which is the linkage clause of Allazeena-Those -- who.

GREEN: I am very sorry but your grammar books leads you to wrong understandings.
ONLY subset of People of Book but ALL Mushrikeen.

Here is a nice example from 5:5
5:5 "...  وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ  الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ  الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ    ..."
You see it was not that hard  :nope:

Look at the next ayaat please:
A- 9:17   مَا كَانَ لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ  أَن يَعْمُرُوا مَسَاجِدَ اللَّـهِ شَاهِدِينَ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِم بِالْكُفْرِ  ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ حَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ وَفِي النَّارِ هُمْ خَالِدُونَ
All of them not a single one is spared, no subset. So this contradicts your understanding.

if 98:6 was talking about a subset of AlMushrikeen then it should have been something like this:
Inna allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi waallatheena kafaroo mina  almushrikeena...as per 5:5

or at least something like this:
Inna allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi wamina  almushrikeena...
but this would be I think a weird sentence.

By the way AlMushrkeena gets MINA not MIN. This already makes it weird to understand that it's talking about a subset of almushrikeen.

Quote
If someone is today a Mushrik, tomorrow he can become a believer. He is not going to hell-prison subject to having met other condionalities of becoming a believer.

We now that.
But the ayaat is not talking about the believers of tomorrow but about the kafaru from the people of the book and the mushreeks of today.


Quote
Always remember to see the case endings of the words to determine their relationship with the preceding word. Mushrikeena is in genitive case. If they were a separate entity as another predicate of Inna then it has to be in nominative case.

what you fail to understand is that "allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi" is 1 entity in itself. And "almushrikeena" is 1 entity.
you take "ahli alkitabi" as 1 entity and that is not correct.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 06, 2013, 02:56:50 PM
2:161; 3:91; 9:84; 9:125; 47:34

The certain fact about those who had deliberately denied to accept the belief;
and they died while they were determined-staunch rejecters-Non Believers:
The Condemnation-contemptuous discard by Allah the Exalted and the Angels and by men is collectively destined for such Non-Believers [on the Day of Judgment]. [2:161]

Salaamun alayka,

Thank you I see now what you mean with "and died in that state".
But I see also that Allah is capable to say something like "and died in that state" in 2:161.
So I wonder why you translated 98:6 with an "and died in that state" while it's not there.
We can already learn from 2:161 that He is capable of doing it, but He did not do it in 98:6.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 07, 2013, 12:39:58 AM
Salaamun alayka,

Thank you I see now what you mean with "and died in that state".
But I see also that Allah is capable to say something like "and died in that state" in 2:161.
So I wonder why you translated 98:6 with an "and died in that state" while it's not there.
We can already learn from 2:161 that He is capable of doing it, but He did not do it in 98:6.

Salaam,
Bender

Salamun alaikum,

Writing --- the original text is according to conventions and the style of author.

Translation is the transference of  the information [not words equivalence----naive are they who do it-they ignore what writing means] embedded in the original text in the target language which has its own conventions. Its conventions are also to be taken care of.

فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ   This is a compound of Prepositional Phrase and Possessive Phrase. This is about the EMBEDDED/ELIDED predicate of the Verb Like Particle "Inna". A prepositional phrase is neither a subject of sentence nor predicate. It is relating to either.

"in the fire of Hell" is obviously relevant only after death. Though the elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic, but I insist in translation that it should only be from Qur'aan as I quoted you the Ayahs.

Reading does not mean picking the meanings of individual words. It needs comprehension. And for comprehending a non native text,  one MUST know the grammar and modes of writing in that language. 
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: wrkmmn on June 07, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
Peace:

4:150 VERILY, those who deny God and His apostles by endeavouring to make a distinction between [belief in] God and [belief in] His apostles, and who say, "We believe in the one but we deny the other,"* and want to pursue a path in-between - (4:151) it is they, they who are truly denying the truth: and for those who deny the truth We have readied shameful suffering.

* Or: "We believe in some and we deny the others"- that is, they believe in God but not in
His apostles (Zamakhshari) or, alternatively, they believe in some of the apostles and
deny others (Tabari and Zamakhshari). To my mind, the first of these two interpretations
is preferable inasmuch as it covers not only a rejection of some of the apostles but also
a total rejection of the idea that God may have revealed His will through His chosen
message-bearers. In Islam, the rejection of any or all of God's apostles constitutes almost
as grave a sin as a denial of God Himself.(Mohamed Assad)
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 10, 2013, 04:44:00 AM
Salamun alaikum,

Salaamun alayka,

I am singular.

Quote
فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ   This is a compound of Prepositional Phrase and Possessive Phrase. This is about the EMBEDDED/ELIDED predicate of the Verb Like Particle "Inna". A prepositional phrase is neither a subject of sentence nor predicate. It is relating to either.

"in the fire of Hell" is obviously relevant only after death. Though the elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic, but I insist in translation that it should only be from Qur'aan as I quoted you the Ayahs.

Reading does not mean picking the meanings of individual words. It needs comprehension. And for comprehending a non native text,  one MUST know the grammar and modes of writing in that language.


Can you please show me what elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic in:
103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 10, 2013, 05:39:19 AM
Salaamun alayka,

I am singular.
 

Can you please show me what elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic in:
103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

Salaam,
Bender

Salamun alaika, [for singular the plural pronoun can also be used - it is a complete sentence with predicate elided to which relates the prepositional phrase --for this reason you can wish this even for a polytheist on meeting or departure]

إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

In categorization of sentences it the the simple sentence. It is news given under oath. Subject noun of Verb Like Particle is الْإِنسَانَ man as species.

It needs a predicate. لَفِي خُسْرٍ is not predicate since it is a prepositional phrase with prefixed emphatic particle to lay another emphasis on the news given.

The elided predicate is visible to rational beings if they know what is signified by خُسْرٍ a verbal noun which states only action and state without reference to time. The oath is also about the timeline.

You determine the meanings and signification of خُسْرٍ and the elided predicate will emerge before your eyes. Please try.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 11, 2013, 02:17:55 AM
Salamun alaika, [for singular the plural pronoun can also be used - it is a complete sentence with predicate elided to which relates the prepositional phrase --for this reason you can wish this even for a polytheist on meeting or departure]

Salaamun alayka,

I can not find such usage in The Quran.
Can I say also to a singular person: Barakatun Aleikum  :hmm


Quote
إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

In categorization of sentences it the the simple sentence. It is news given under oath. Subject noun of Verb Like Particle is الْإِنسَانَ man as species.

It needs a predicate. لَفِي خُسْرٍ is not predicate since it is a prepositional phrase with prefixed emphatic particle to lay another emphasis on the news given.

The elided predicate is visible to rational beings if they know what is signified by خُسْرٍ a verbal noun which states only action and state without reference to time. The oath is also about the timeline.

You determine the meanings and signification of خُسْرٍ and the elided predicate will emerge before your eyes. Please try.

What I see is that the structure of 103:2 is the same as 98:6
A- 103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ  لَفِي خُسْرٍ
A- 98:2 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

I was wondering why there is no "and died in that state" in your translation of 103:2

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 11, 2013, 02:34:22 AM
Salaamun alayka,

What I see is that the structure of 103:2 is the same as 98:6
A- 103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ  لَفِي خُسْرٍ
A- 98:2 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

I was wondering why there is no "and died in that state" in your translation of 103:2

Salaam,
Bender

The similarity is that both prepositional phrase are about the elided predicate of Inna. "Loss" is determined at the extreme end of time. Going within the Hell-Prison is also to be determined by the end state of a person.

Swearing is by the Span of Time; [103:01]
That the fact is: the Man as a species is certainly heading towards loss-worse state at the concluding point in time than the state-position at the point in time of beginning. [in time span from obeisance of Angels and Paradise to Hell-Prison] [103:02]
Except those who willingly and affectionately accepted-believed and performed moderate righteous deeds;
And they consciously kept themselves embedded-tied with the Infallible Fact-Grand Qur'aan;
And they convincingly kept themselves remain coolly perseverant and steadfast. [103:03]
 
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 11, 2013, 02:42:23 AM
The similarity is that both prepositional phrase are about the elided predicate of Inna. "Loss" is determined at the extreme end of time. Going within the Hell-Prison is also to be determined by the end state of a person.

Swearing is by the Span of Time; [103:01]
That the fact is: the Man as a species is certainly heading towards loss-worse state at the concluding point in time than the state-position at the point in time of beginning. [in time span from obeisance of Angels and Paradise to Hell-Prison] [103:02]
Except those who willingly and affectionately accepted-believed and performed moderate righteous deeds;
And they consciously kept themselves embedded-tied with the Infallible Fact-Grand Qur'aan;
And they convincingly kept themselves remain coolly perseverant and steadfast. [103:03]

Salaamun alayka,

So now man is not in loss?

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 11, 2013, 03:13:44 AM
Salaamun alayka,

So now man is not in loss?

Salaam,
Bender

"Loss" is relative to Start and End. If someone is progressing towards Hell Prison he is even at this point in time in loss. If he reverts, he starts moving towards profit-gain. The purpose of the Book is to incline people to revert from loss direction.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 12, 2013, 08:00:46 AM
"Loss" is relative to Start and End. If someone is progressing towards Hell Prison he is even at this point in time in loss. If he reverts, he starts moving towards profit-gain. The purpose of the Book is to incline people to revert from loss direction.

Salaamun alayka,

I am not sure, but it looks to me that you have changed your direction several times during this conversation. That is ofcourse not a bad thing but at the moment I am not even sure what we are discussing.
Anway, do you still believe that "and died in that state" belongs in your translation of 98:6? If you still believe so, then be sure to implement it also in 103:2 and all other ayaats with similar stucture like 98:6.
Even better is ofcourse to delete it from your translation of 98:6 as you know very well that if Allah wanted to say that, then for sure He does not need your help on it.

Salaam,
Bender

ps. sorry MmKhan for  :offtopic:
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 12, 2013, 09:05:17 AM
Salaamun alayka,

I am not sure, but it looks to me that you have changed your direction several times during this conversation. That is ofcourse not a bad thing but at the moment I am not even sure what we are discussing.
Anway, do you still believe that "and died in that state" belongs in your translation of 98:6? If you still believe so, then be sure to implement it also in 103:2 and all other ayaats with similar stucture like 98:6.
Even better is ofcourse to delete it from your translation of 98:6 as you know very well that if Allah wanted to say that, then for sure He does not need your help on it.

Salaam,
Bender

ps. sorry MmKhan for  :offtopic:

Salamun alaika,

No change of direction; the problem in comprehending the otherwise simple things is only because you are not taking care how the prepositional phrases in sentences are linked to the semantics of the sentence. The preposition and its object noun determine the elided predicate. When the object noun changes the predicate is not the same at both places.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 14, 2013, 01:24:41 AM
Salamun alaika,

No change of direction; the problem in comprehending the otherwise simple things is only because you are not taking care how the prepositional phrases in sentences are linked to the semantics of the sentence. The preposition and its object noun determine the elided predicate. When the object noun changes the predicate is not the same at both places.

Salaamun alayka,

It might be that I'm a litle bit slow in understanding things, so maybe you can help me a bit to understand better.

Can you please translate for me the next sentence please, it's not Quran.
Inna allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi waalmushrikeena fee cold of Alaska khalideena feeha.

Salaam and thx!
Bender

Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 14, 2013, 02:59:02 AM
Salaamun alayka,

It might be that I'm a litle bit slow in understanding things, so maybe you can help me a bit to understand better.

Can you please translate for me the next sentence please, it's not Quran.
Inna allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi waalmushrikeena fee cold of Alaska khalideena feeha.

Salaam and thx!
Bender

Salaman,

Once we are able to write few sentences and read some sentences; we never look back to recap as to what is writing and what is reading. It is always good to go through basic lessons as to how a text is written, rules and conventions of writing and rules and conventions for how to read a text in any language.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 14, 2013, 03:52:43 AM
Salaman,

Once we are able to write few sentences and read some sentences; we never look back to recap as to what is writing and what is reading. It is always good to go through basic lessons as to how a text is written, rules and conventions of writing and rules and conventions for how to read a text in any language.

Salaamun alayka,

Is this your translation of what I asked  :hmm

salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Mazhar on June 14, 2013, 04:13:01 AM
Yes, if only you had given a thought. A thoughtful posture does not mean one is applying mind. Please see your sentence and think if it is what is called writing.
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: Bender on June 14, 2013, 04:33:51 AM
Yes, if only you had given a thought. A thoughtful posture does not mean one is applying mind. Please see your sentence and think if it is what is called writing.

salaamun alayka,

:handshake:
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: QuranOnly on December 29, 2014, 12:48:41 PM
Salam,

I'm reviving this old thread.

Brother MMkhan, can you please explain your understanding of this:

S28V44:
And you, [O Muhammad], were not on the western side [of the mount] when We revealed to Moses the command, and you were not among the witnesses [to that].

Who is Allah talking to?

According to your theory, the book was given to Moussa but is adressing someone else?
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on December 30, 2014, 02:23:51 AM
Salam,

I'm reviving this old thread.

Brother MMkhan, can you please explain your understanding of this:

S28V44:
And you, [O Muhammad], were not on the western side [of the mount] when We revealed to Moses the command, and you were not among the witnesses [to that].

Who is Allah talking to?

According to your theory, the book was given to Moussa but is adressing someone else?

Salaam brother,

Here are the possible translations of the aayat given:

- And you, [O QuranOnly], were not on the western side when We revealed to Moses the command, and you were not among the witnesses.

- And you, [O mmKhan], were not on the western side when We revealed to Moses the command, and you were not among the witnesses.

AlQuraan always refer to the reader whoever it might be. When it says "Qul huwaAllahu ahad" it does not means only only Mohammed has to say "huwaAllahu ahad". When you read it you will clearly understand that Allah is asking YOU to "SAY". AlQuraan always talk to the reader unless it is clearly stated by NAME whom it is addressing to.

BTW, my current understanding on this concept that alQuraan/alKitaab was given to Musa is changed. InshaAllah, I will write it down when my Lord allow me to do so.

Thanks for clarifying it.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: huruf on December 30, 2014, 08:32:20 AM
33.8.
وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِيثَاقَهُمْ وَمِنكَ وَمِن نُّوحٍ وَإِبْرَ‌اهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْ‌يَمَ ۖ وَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُم مِّيثَاقًا غَلِيظًا ﴿٧﴾


And remember We took from the prophets their covenant and from you (singular masculine) and from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant:

There are many addresses in singuar masculine in sura 33, which seem to refer to a specific prophet in spexific situation, even if tht kind of speecha, of course, can be generalised to analogous events and circumstances, such as are told in those passages.



 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. (21)

Here a specific, defined prophet is addressed, not an  undetermined one or a collection of them.

Also 33.28 and others:

  O Prophet! Say to thy Consorts: "If it be that ye desire the life of this World, and its glitter,- then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner. (28) But if ye seek Allah and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward. (29)

Salaam
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: mmkhan on December 30, 2014, 03:06:23 PM
33.8.
وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِيثَاقَهُمْ وَمِنكَ وَمِن نُّوحٍ وَإِبْرَ‌اهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْ‌يَمَ ۖ وَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُم مِّيثَاقًا غَلِيظًا ﴿٧﴾

And remember We took from the prophets their covenant and from you (singular masculine) and from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant:

There are many addresses in singuar masculine in sura 33, which seem to refer to a specific prophet in spexific situation, even if tht kind of speecha, of course, can be generalised to analogous events and circumstances, such as are told in those passages.

Salaam,

This could also refer to the reader, but unfortunately most of us don't take it on us and leave it for Nabi. Allah is very specific while addressing someone, like 33:28 which you have quoted below. It clearly says O Nabi, Allah knows how to address to the reader and to the Nabi and to the Rasool.


Quote
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. (21)

Here a specific, defined prophet is addressed, not an  undetermined one or a collection of them.

I don't see any specific Rasool or Nabi mentioned in this aayat i.e.,33:21. If the name is mentioned then you can say it is specific.

Quote
Also 33.28 and others:

O Prophet! Say to thy Consorts: "If it be that ye desire the life of this World, and its glitter,- then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner. (28) But if ye seek Allah and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward. (29)

Salaam

Yes, this is the proof how Allah address to a Nabi.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
Post by: huruf on December 30, 2014, 03:25:27 PM
No his name is not mentionned but still it is a specific nabi, not any person whatever. I am not talking about names, but about persons. The fact that the name is not mentionned, does not make out of it any nabi whatever, but that secific nabi being addressed at that point.

On the other hand, if at a given time there is one that is known as nabi and only that one, the address to a naby in determined form must be taken that it is the nabi that is known as the nabi who is addressed.

Salaam