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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Noon waalqalami on July 04, 2012, 11:45:51 AM

Title: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 04, 2012, 11:45:51 AM
Peace,

Admin please consider making this thread a sticky; perhaps I'll work on an online calculator.

Internet is filled with challenges to Qur'an inheritance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkzLeE3GR0E

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i001.html

No agreement with different traditional islamic schools as with this calculator:
http://www.islamicsoftware.org/irth/irth.html mother, 1 sister

Allow reversion: 2/5 mother, 3/5 sister
No reversion: 1/3 mother, 1/2 sister, Islamic Treasury: 1/6

Confusion in earliest traditions: Al-Muwatta' of Imam Malik (163 AH)
http://www.sunnipath.com/Library/Hadith/H0001P0027.aspx
    
27.1 Inheritance of Direct Descendants
A)  How much to give when they are exactly two daughters?
2)  They assume فوق over اثنتين two or three+ also means two?

There is confusion with meanings of إخوة ikh'watun and الكلالة al-kalālati

Quote
Book 011, Number 3937: , Abu Talha reported: 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be please..
Abu Talha reported: 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a sermon on Friday and made a mention of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he also made a mention of Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) and then said: I do not leave behind me any problem more difficult than that of Kalala. I did not refer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) more repeatedly than in case of the problem of Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) never showed more annoyance to me than in regard to this problem, so much so that he struck my chest with his fingers and said: 'Umar, does the verse revealed in summer season, at the end of Sura al-Nisa' not suffice you? Hadrat 'Umar (then) said: If I live I would give such verdict about (Kalala) that everyone would be able to decide whether he reads the Qur'an or he does not.

When asked simple questions like which amount to give the sister: 1/6 (4:12) or 1/2 (4:176)?

They say 4:12 refers to uterine siblings/half sisters and brothers having the same mother different father to resolve the issue which brought about other confusion when total distribution is greater than the whole and fix was to use algebra to proportionately increase/decrease each amount by a common denominator called al-awl as in this example:

husband, mother, 3 uterine brothers, 2 full brothers
1/2 husband + 1/6 mother + 1/3 uterine brothers (4:12) = 0 full brothers (4:176)

The above was a supposed case during the caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab who ruled the 2 full brothers got nothing since there was nothing remaining to share. The full brothers argued that even if their father was a donkey or a stone cast into the sea and they had no paternal relationship, they still had the same and equal relationship with the deceased as the uterine brothers through the same mother. Umar reconsidered his ruling and allowed the full brothers to inherit equally with the uterine brothers in the shares thus:

1/2 husband + 1/6 mother + 1/3 brothers = 1

Which is incorrect according to Qur'an when there is a spouse siblings get nothing!
They resolve using algebra or al-Awl increase/decrease evenly all shares, example:

1 - 1/6x father - 1/6x mother - 1/4x husband - 1/2x daughter = 0
1 - 2/12x father - 2/12x mother - 3/12x husband - 6/12x daughters = 0
1 = 13/12x
12/13 = x use substitution...

1/6*12/13 = 2/13 father
1/6*12/13 = 2/13 mother
1/4*12/13 = 3/13 husband
2/4*12/13 = 6/13 daughter

Using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra one can wrongly "fix" surplus/shortfall any combinations.

One of the issues has to do with ولد walad child/son; it can also mean ولد waladun child/born or offspring.

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth.

Here are the verses which if followed literally will give precise amounts without excess/shortfall.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصية a will يوصين they made بها in it أو or دين judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment وإن and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ a brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so for each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا they were أكثر more من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصية a will يوصى is recommended بها in it أو or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصية a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلالة al-kalālati (the fatherless spouseless) إن if امرؤ a person هلك died ليس is not له to that person ولد waladun child/born وله and has أخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it إن if لم not يكن is لها to her ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كانتا were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the two thirds مما from what ترك left وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings رجالا men/males ونساء and females فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing


Pay careful attention to see 4:11 kalala no son; 4:12 kalala with son; 4:176 the kalala no child/born.

Here are all combinations and obviously a sole inheritor gets the whole no need for distribution laws.

1 = mother
1 = father
1 = spouse
1 = daughter/s
1 = son/s
1 = sister/s
1 = brother/s

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

son/s, daughter/s: distribute 2:1 ratio male to female

mother/father, son/s: 1/6 5/6
mother/father, 1 daughter : 1/2 1/2 no son, mother/father variable
mother/father, 2 daughters: 1/3 2/3 (2 daughters variable) all share equally
mother/father, 3 daughters: 1/3 2/3

mother, father : 1/3 2/3
mother, brother/s: 1/6 5/6

mother/father, husband: 1/2 1/2
mother/father, wife  : 3/4 1/4

father, sibling/s : 1 0 not kalala has father
husband/wife, sibling/s: 1 0 not kalala has spouse

husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/2 1/2 not childless; no son; husband/wife variable
husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/3 2/3
husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/3 2/3

husband, son/s: 1/4 3/4

mother, father, husband: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, father,    wife : 3/8 3/8 1/4

mother, father, 1 daughter : 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, father, 2 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, father, 3 daughters: 1/6 1/6 2/3

mother, father, son/s: 1/6 1/6 2/3

mother, husband/wife, 1 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/6 1/6 2/3

mother, husband, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12
mother, wife,    son/s : 1/6 1/8 17/24

father, husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/4 1/4 1/2
father, husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
father, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/6 1/6 2/3

father, husband, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12
father, wife,    son/s : 1/6 1/8 17/24

father, daughter/s,  son/s : 1/6 5/6 children 2:1 ratio
husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/4 3/4 children 2:1 ratio

mother, father, husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/6 1/6 1/6 1/2
mother, father, husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/5 1/5 1/5 2/5
mother, father, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/9 1/9 1/9 2/3
 
mother, father, husband, son/s: 1/6 1/6 1/4 5/12
mother, father, wife,    son/s : 1/6 1/6 1/8 13/24

mother, husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12  children 2:1 ratio
mother, wife, daughter/s,    son/s : 1/6 1/8 17/24 children 2:1 ratio

father, husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12  children 2:1 ratio
father, wife, daughter/s,    son/s: 1/6 1/8 17/24 children 2:1 ratio

mother, father, husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/6 1/4 5/12  children 2:1 ratio
mother, father, wife, daughter/s,    son/s: 1/6 1/6 1/8 13/24 children 2:1 ratio

mother, father, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/6 2/3 children 2:1 ratio


4:11 kalala fatherless spouseless no son (sibling/s variable)
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s : 1/4 1/2 1/4
mother, 1 daughter, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equally

mother, 2 daughters, sister/s: 1/4 1/2, 1/4 each 1/4 1/4
mother, 2 daughters, brother/s: 1/6 5/6 daughters siblings share equally
mother, 2 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 5/6 daughters siblings share equally

mother, 3 daughters, sister/s : 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, 3 daughters, brother/s: 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, 3 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 2/3 1/3 siblings share equally

1 daughter, sister/s : 1/2 1/2
1 daughter, brother/s: 1/2 1/2
1 daughter, sister/s, brother/s: 1/2 1/2 siblings share equally
 
2 daughters, sister/s : daughters siblings share equally
2 daughters, brother/s: daughters siblings share equally
2 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: daughters siblings share equally

3 daughters, sister/s : 2/3, 2/9 each 1/3
3 daughters, brother/s: 2/3, 2/9 each 1/3
3 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: 2/3 1/3 siblings share equally


4:12 kalala fatherless spouseless has son (sibling/s fixed 1/6 or 1/3)
son/s, sister : 5/6 1/6
son/s, brother: 5/6 1/6
son/s, sisters: 5/6 1/3
son/s, brothers:5/6 1/3
son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 2/3 1/3 siblings share equally

daughter/s, son/s, sister : 5/6 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
daughter/s, son/s, brother: 5/6 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
daughter/s, son/s, sisters: 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
daughter/s, son/s, brothers:2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
daughter/s, son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/3 siblings share equally

mother, son/s, sister : 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, son/s, brother: 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, son/s, sisters: 1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, son/s, brothers:1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equally

mother, daughter/s, son/s, sister : 1/6 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
mother, daughter/s, son/s, brother: 1/6 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
mother, daughter/s, son/s, sisters: 1/6 1/2 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
mother, daughter/s, son/s, brothers:1/6 1/2 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
mother, daughter/s, son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 children 2:1 ratio 1/3 siblings share equally


4:176 kalala fatherless spouseless no child/born
sister/s, brother/s: 2:1 ratio male to female

mother, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 5/6 siblings 2:1 ratio

mother, 1 sister : 1/2 1/2
mother, 2 sisters: 1/3 2/3
mother, 3 sisters: 1/4 3/4 unstated/variable distribute equally

4:176... يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mirjamnur on July 05, 2012, 02:47:05 AM
Salam
check out this link:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm)
peace :)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 05, 2012, 08:39:19 AM
Salam
check out this link:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm)

Peace mirjamnur,

Have you tested a few examples using the above site?
e.g.: woman leaves $1,000: husband and 3 daughters

http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm

Is the deceased a male = No
Is there a spouse, parents or any descents = Yes
Are parents still alive = No
Is there a husband = Yes
Are there any children = Yes (husband receives 1/4)

Are there only daughters = Yes
Is there only one daughter = No (daughters share from 2/3)

1/4 + 2/3 = 11/12, who gets remaining 1/12 or $1000 x 1/12 = $83.33?


Let's also try woman leaves $1,000: husband, 3 daughters, mother, father

1/4 husband   $250
2/3 daughters $1000 x 2/3 = $666.67
1/6 mother    $1000 x 1/6 = $166.67
1/6 father    $1000 x 1/6 = $166.67

= 1 + 1/4 or $1,250 too much or short $250!

Do you now see the problem with all these sites and translations?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mirjamnur on July 05, 2012, 03:22:16 PM
Salam noon waalqalami
Caught! i didn't ... yes, and I see your problem. and I will, so God will,  now study the matter .i will post, if I could draw any new conclusions.
Thank you for your input the topic is very important -r better if we leave nothing behind:  no dispute ... ;D
(but please make contact with the author from the site and look , what he will answer you.)
peace :)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mirjamnur on July 06, 2012, 02:58:42 AM
Peace mirjamnur,

Have you tested a few examples using the above site?
e.g.: woman leaves $1,000: husband and 3 daughters

http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm

Is the deceased a male = No
Is there a spouse, parents or any descents = Yes
Are parents still alive = No
Is there a husband = Yes
Are there any children = Yes (husband receives 1/4)

Are there only daughters = Yes
Is there only one daughter = No (daughters share from 2/3)

1/4 + 2/3 = 11/12, who gets remaining 1/12 or $1000 x 1/12 = $83.33?


Let's also try woman leaves $1,000: husband, 3 daughters, mother, father

1/4 husband   $250
2/3 daughters $1000 x 2/3 = $666.67
1/6 mother    $1000 x 1/6 = $166.67
1/6 father    $1000 x 1/6 = $166.67

= 1 + 1/4 or $1,250 too much or short $250!

Do you now see the problem with all these sites and translations?

e.g.: woman leaves $1,000: husband and 3 daughters

husband 1/4= 3/12
parents 1/6=2./12
daughters =7/12= 21/36 everyone 7/36


when she leaves husband and 2 daughters and 1 son
husband 1/4
parents 1/6
daughters and son 7/12 =28/48
daugther 1= 7/48
daughter 2=7/48
son 14/48

when she leaves husband and 3 daughters and one son
husband 1/4=3/12 (250$)
parents 1/6= 2/12 (166.66$) the rest will be 7/12
three daughters and the son together 7/12= 21/36 
daughters 2/3= 14/36
son= 1/3= 7/36

Salam what you think about? :peace:

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Pleiades on July 06, 2012, 06:48:41 AM
Salam
check out this link:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/inheritance%20FM3.htm)
peace :)

Peace Mirjumanur - Thanks for the link. I think it is an honest effort. To be fair to the author of the site, he does seem to recognise that there is room for discussion and ain't a case of my way or the highway type presentation. 

I noted the opening sentence on the top of the diagram.

"The illustration below attempts to best capture the inheritance directives in the Quran. It is left for the reader to consult the verses mentioned and scrutinise them with a view to understand the topic deeply. The illustration merely intends to provide an overview and a cue for further study"


Inheritance is a really important and really involved topic. I reckon it always has been. I look forward to it being discussed here and agree with Noon waalqalami that it should be considered as a sticky! I'd like to work out my own inheritance properly according to the Quran! Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 06, 2012, 09:00:45 AM
e.g.: woman leaves $1,000: husband and 3 daughters

husband 1/4= 3/12
parents 1/6=2./12
daughters =7/12= 21/36 everyone 7/36

Peace mirjamnur,

You gave the 3 daughters 7/12 and did not follow the instructions in Qur'an?

4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds

2/3 = 2/9 x 3 daughters
1/3 = 1/9 husband + 2/9 parents (1/9 mother + 1/9 father)

4:11 to parents 1/6 if walad/son = false
4:12 to husband 1/2 if no child/born = false; 1/4  if walad/son = false

Therefore, in this case, husband and parents are unstated or variable who share remaining 1/3 equally.

when she leaves husband and 2 daughters and 1 son
husband 1/4
parents 1/6
daughters and son 7/12 =28/48
daugther 1= 7/48
daughter 2=7/48
son 14/48

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son
4:12 فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

1/4 or 3/12 husband
1/3 or 4/12 parents = 1/6 mother + 1/6 father
......... 5/12 children = 5/24 son + 5/24 daughters (5/48 x 2 daughters); if children mixed 2:1 ratio male to female

when she leaves husband and 3 daughters and one son
husband 1/4=3/12 (250$)
parents 1/6= 2/12 (166.66$) the rest will be 7/12
three daughters and the son together 7/12= 21/36 
daughters 2/3= 14/36
son= 1/3= 7/36

See above 1/4 husband; 1/3 parents (1/6 each); 5/12 children = 2/12 son + 3/12 three daughters, 1/12 each

Salam what you think about?

Follow exactly as stated in Qur'an and you'll be fine; perhaps be a bit more neat/orderly as well.  :)

Inheritance is a really important and really involved topic. I reckon it always has been. I look forward to it being discussed here and agree with Noon waalqalami that it should be considered as a sticky! I'd like to work out my own inheritance properly according to the Quran! Peace

Peace Pleiades,

Yes this topic should be a sticky; it teaches logic, how to read Qur'an using cross-reference and context to extrapolate certain words and to take the best non-contradicting meaning.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 07, 2012, 08:36:20 AM
Peace,

Most reciters have the correct sequence for verse 4:11 walad/son followed by waladun child/born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4tyaki83aY
Scroll to beginning of verse 4:11 at 04:29 minute

4:12 (05:45 minute) they have incorrect and reversed walad/son followed by waladaun child/born.

The above is an obvious contradiction; the husband cannot receive both 1/2 and 1/4!

1/2 husband if no son
1/4 husband if child/born

If only daughters (no son = true) 1/2 husband
If only daughters (if child  = true) 1/4 husband

4:176 1:12:37 minute, most have 1st correct if no waladun child/born, 2nd is incorrect if no walad/son.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mirjamnur on July 07, 2012, 09:58:09 AM
Salam

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصية a will يوصين they made بها in it أو or دين judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment وإن and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ a brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so for each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا they were أكثر more من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصية a will يوصى is recommended بها in it أو or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصية a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

Quote
You gave the 3 daughters 7/12 and did not follow the instructions in Qur'an?

4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه

Because i understand: normal case:  male and female =male double from female, when more then two for them 2/3
abnormal ::): only female they become all= the rest all the 7/12

Quote
4:11 to parents 1/6 if walad/son = false
yes i see, to each from them 1/6 that will be 2/6 thats right? or 4/6?

4.12...so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left
why you say
Quote
1/4  if walad/son = false
? walad here means not children? why you translate it one time with son and other time with children?

Quote
Follow exactly as stated in Qur'an and you'll be fine; perhaps be a bit more neat/orderly as well. 
isA i will try it  ;)
the best solution: to give in the lifetime much sadaqa , then we will not have anything to study ;D
peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 07, 2012, 03:55:24 PM
Peace mirjamnur,

why you say ? walad here means not children? why you translate it one time with son and other time with children?

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

The above is the only non-contradicting meaning. Example case: husband, 3 daughters

These are all the possibilities ...

4:12 1/2 if no son (true), 1/4 if child (true): both true its not known what to give husband 1/2 or 1/4?
4:12 1/2 if no son (true), 1/4 if son   (false): 1/2 husband + 2/3 daughters = 1 + 1/6 or 1/6 shortfall?

4:12 1/2 if no child (false), 1/4 if child (true): 1/4 husband + 2/3 daughters = 11/12 or 1/12 excess?
4:12 1/2 if no child (false), 1/4 if son  (false): both false, husband unstated/variable gets remainder.

1 - 2/3 (2/9 x 3 daughters) = 1/3 husband

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mirjamnur on July 08, 2012, 06:48:07 AM
Salam Noonwalqalami

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise[/b].


directs you The God in your CHILDREN (waladakum) to the male (al thakkar) like share the two feminine(al unthaiyn)...


God is clear in his testimony. He uses in 4.11 walad for children and clearly differentiated by Thakkar and Unthain the sexes.
It can be assumed that walad in this matter, the word refers to the children and not sons.
Then everything is much easier

now the example husband three daughters

4.12 husband become 1/4 because there are childrens
the daughters become all the rest, because there is no boy. i understand the 2/3 for the girls, when there are males also
because why 2/3 for whom the rest??? this would be illogical what you have proved...

wait, because to much Math in the morning ;) Allah may give me knowledge
peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 08, 2012, 01:37:14 PM
directs you The God in your CHILDREN (waladakum) to the male (al thakkar) like share the two feminine(al unthaiyn)...


God is clear in his testimony. He uses in 4.11 walad for children and clearly differentiated by Thakkar and Unthain the sexes.
It can be assumed that walad in this matter, the word refers to the children and not sons.
Then everything is much easier

now the example husband three daughters

4.12 husband become 1/4 because there are childrens
the daughters become all the rest, because there is no boy. i understand the 2/3 for the girls, when there are males also
because why 2/3 for whom the rest??? this would be illogical what you have proved...

wait, because to much Math in the morning ;) Allah may give me knowledge
peace

Peace mirjamnur,

Take your time and clearly think it through before posting; it cannot be 2/3 for the girls when there are males.

It was explained in beginning of  thread the word can mean son, child, or born/begot...
37:152 ولد begot الله The God وإنهم and indeed they لكاذبون surely liars

Example: mother, father, husband, 3 daughters, son

If we give 3 daughters 2/3 and the parents 1/3 leaves nothing to give the husband and son.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)  ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

If children mixed 2:1 ratio male to female always the case for mixed children or siblings.
If son = true 1/6 mother
If son = true 1/6 father
If son = true 1/4 husband

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children at 2:1 ratio male to female (1/12 x 3 daughters + 1/6 son)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mirjamnur on July 09, 2012, 07:20:45 AM
Salam
I will meditate over the problem :hmm :hail first in german and when i'm finished i will come back here. o.k?
thanks for your sabr...

peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 11, 2012, 12:05:51 PM
salaam Nun,

Have you posted this on anti-Islam websites and asked them to refute? If so, please provide the links. Thanks.

If you have, and all attempts to refute have failed, then I am willing to offer help to develop a dedicated site for this, i.e. an online calculator. I have experience in such projects, e.g. AreYouMuslim.com, Learn-About-Islam.com, QuranConnection.com etc.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 12, 2012, 04:29:51 PM
It is quite funny to see my video used here as a challenge to the Koranic inheritance guidelines :)

The problem is simple: there are numerous calculators on the net concerning Islamic inheritance rules and laws. None of them really follow the rulings in the Koran and they differ between each other.

The reason is that a simple example will show that the mathematics used is insufficient to create a realistic solution, which leaves only one possibility: the sentences in question are merely allegorical and are there to serve not as accurate calculations but concepts.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 12, 2012, 11:53:44 PM
salaam/peace StopS,

Please provide the author of this thread with your "simple example".

Thanks.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 13, 2012, 11:25:23 AM

Please provide the author of this thread with your "simple example".


Sure, I was under the impression everybody knew it.

Calculate the inheritance for a wife, 3 daughters and 2 parents of a man who died.

1/8 wife/wives    3/24          have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth
2/3 daughters    16/24     women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves
2/6 parents    8/24            parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves

= 3 + 16 + 8 = 27/24
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 13, 2012, 12:35:27 PM
salaam Nun,

Have you posted this on anti-Islam websites and asked them to refute? If so, please provide the links. Thanks.

If you have, and all attempts to refute have failed, then I am willing to offer help to develop a dedicated site for this, i.e. an online calculator. I have experience in such projects, e.g. AreYouMuslim.com, Learn-About-Islam.com, QuranConnection.com etc.

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for making this thread a sticky; it's for the benefit of those who seek understanding for their own souls and if they truly desire they'll be quided here. I have little interest in evangelizing or proving anything to anyone especially annoying missionaries, followers of hearsay, math deficiate numerologists or the godless aroused at miss-leading others into the abysss chanting...

"Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada [then nothing]. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee."
― Ernest Hemingway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean,_Well-Lighted_Place

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 13, 2012, 12:36:35 PM
It is quite funny to see my video used here as a challenge to the Koranic inheritance guidelines :)

The problem is simple: there are numerous calculators on the net concerning Islamic inheritance rules and laws. None of them really follow the rulings in the Koran and they differ between each other.

The reason is that a simple example will show that the mathematics used is insufficient to create a realistic solution, which leaves only one possibility: the sentences in question are merely allegorical and are there to serve not as accurate calculations but concepts.

Hello, peace and welcome StopS,

Your video was funny too and inaccurate according to Qur'an. In addition, the other sites and people that you were debating are clueless on the subject of inheritance verses, cannot follow simple instructions, and lack basic IF THEN ELSE logic.

Sure, I was under the impression everybody knew it.

Calculate the inheritance for a wife, 3 daughters and 2 parents of a man who died.

1/8 wife/wives    3/24          have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth
2/3 daughters    16/24     women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves
2/6 parents    8/24            parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves

= 3 + 16 + 8 = 27/24

All combinations and their appropriate mathamatical distributions were posted at beginning of this thread.

Here are the verses which if followed literally will give precise amounts without excess/shortfall.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصية a will يوصين they made بها in it أو or دين judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment وإن and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ a brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so for each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا they were أكثر more من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصية a will يوصى is recommended بها in it أو or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصية a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلالة al-kalālati (the fatherless spouseless) إن if امرؤ a person هلك died ليس is not له to that person ولد waladun child/born وله and has أخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it إن if لم not يكن is لها to her ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كانتا were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the two thirds مما from what ترك left وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings رجالا men/males ونساء and females فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing


mother, father, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/9 1/9 1/9 2/3


Quote
Calculate the inheritance for a wife, 3 daughters and 2 parents of a man who died.

4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
3 daughters = 2/3

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

IF son THEN each parent share = 1/6 ELSE parents share = variable/unstated
It's same as in case mother and son (1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 son variable/unstated )

4:12... ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight

IF no child/born THEN wife share = 1/4 (false, there are daughters i.e. children)
ELSE IF son THEN wife share = 1/8 (false, no son)
Thus wife share for this case = variable/unstated

Therefore: 1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 13, 2012, 01:56:44 PM
Quote
4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
3 daughters = 2/3

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

IF son THEN each parent share = 1/6 ELSE parents share = variable/unstated
It's same as in case mother and son (1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 son variable/unstated )

4:12... ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left

IF no child/born THEN wife share = 1/4 (statement = false, there are daughters i.e. children)
ELSE if son THEN wife share = 1/8 (statement = false, no son)
ELSE wife share = variable/unstated

Therefore: 1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife)

Could you drop the emotional garbage, please? Thanks. I would prefer a civilised discussion.

You are playing games. Please don't.

Quote
"And for his parents for each of them there is one-sixth of the inheritance if he has a child, but if he does not have a child and the parents are the heirs then for the mother one-third." [Quran 4:11]

The Arabic word "walad" has been variously translated as child, son, children and offspring by translators. However, there is universal agreement amongst the Sunni Muslim jurists that "walad" here refers to any child or agnatic grandchild (grandchild through son).

If there is a child or agnatic grandchild amongst the heirs then each of the parents inherits one-sixth. In the absence of a child or agnatic grandchild the mother inherits one-third, the share of the father is not mentioned under these circumstances. The father in fact inherits as a residuary (a residuary heir gets whatever remains of the inheritance after the Quranic sharers have been allocated their shares, residuary heirs are generally male agnates) under these circumstances.

http://www.kalamullah.com/fatwa13.html

This fatwa also interprets and deviates from the decree in the Koran by insinuating that the father receives what is left, which not in the Koranic text.

Another opinion says:

Quote
the Court stated simply that "so long as the deceased is survived by children, either male or female, the rights of inheritance of the deceased's blood relations, except for parents and spouse, are foreclosed". The only reasoning or authority cited in support of this interpretation was a brief reference to the views of Ibnu Abbas, one of the companions of the Prophet, who construed the word walad in Koran 4: 176 as embracing both male and female children.

Another one says:

Quote
The word 'walad' in in kana lahu walad (if he has children) and fa in lam ya kun lahu walad (if he does not have children) is used both for male and female children. In the Arabic language, this connotation is conventional and customary. Besides being used here, it has also been used subsequently where the shares of the spouses are stated. In this writer's opinion, in all these instances it has the same meaning. There is no contextual indication, intrinsic or extrinsic, to believe that the word has specifically been used for male children. Linguists maintain that it is used in the singular as well as the plural sense and, also, both for the masculine and the feminine gender. In all the cases mentioned, whether boys and girls in the indicated numbers are present or absent, these connotations of the word shall be considered understood.

This means that your view of walad being a single boy is not universally accepted.

Please show me where in the Koran it says that the inheritance is divided into shares which can be re-allocated?
Where in my example is there a son?
Please show me where in the Koran the 1/9 comes up.
Where is the adherence of the text which says very explicitly: "parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children" or "parents, a sixth share to each"???
What happened to the decree for the wives: "if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth"? Can 1/8 decided in the Koran, be changed to 1/9 by a human?

What you also leave out is the "bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence" stated in 2:240, which is also not considered.

Sorry, but your argument is based on the obfuscation of a word, which you are re-assigning a new meaning to and then following it up with re-interpretation.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 13, 2012, 02:54:50 PM
Could you drop the emotional garbage, please? Thanks. I would prefer a civilised discussion.

You are playing games. Please don't.

Peace be upon you! I know that it bothers you that all calculations work perfectly!

This fatwa also interprets and deviates from the decree in the Koran by insinuating that the father receives what is left, which not in the Koranic text.

Another opinion says:

Another one says:

This means that your view of walad being a single boy is not universally accepted.

Please show me where in the Koran it says that the inheritance is divided into shares which can be re-allocated?
Where in my example is there a son?
Please show me where in the Koran the 1/9 comes up.
Where is the adherence of the text which says very explicitly: "parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children" or "parents, a sixth share to each"???
What happened to the decree for the wives: "if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth"? Can 1/8 decided in the Koran, be changed to 1/9 by a human?

I do not care about the univeral opions or fatwa's of the ignorant and explained earlier that one of the issues has to do with ولد walad/son; it can also mean ولد waladun child/born/begot or offspring.

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth.

Walada (prf. 3rd. p. m. sing.): he has begotten.
Waladna (prf. 3rd. p. f. plu.): They (f.) gave birth.
Wulida (pp. 3rd. p. m. sing.): He was born.
Wulidtu (pp. 1st. p. sing.): I was born.
Yalid (imp. 3rd. p. sing. juss.): He begets.
Yaliduu (imp. 3rd. p. m. plu. acc.): They will beget.
Alidu (imp. 1st. sing.): I will give birth, will bear a child.
Yuulad (pip. 3rd. p. m. sing. juss.): He is begotten.
Waladun (n.): Child; Offspring.
Aulaad (plu.): Children.
Waalidun (act. pic. m. sing.): Begotten, Real father.
Waalidatun (act. pic. f. sing.): Mother.
Waalidaan/Waalidain (act. pic. dual): Parents.
Waalidai (act. pic. duel. f. d.): Parents.
Wildaan (n. plu.): Youths; Children.
Waliidun (act. 2nd. pic. m. sing.): Child.
Mauluudun (pis. pic. m. sing. ): Begotten one; One who is born.

walada vb. (1)
perf. act. 37:152, 58:2, 90:3
impf. act. 11:72, 71:27, 112:3
perf. pass. 19:15, 19:33
impf. pass. 112:3
pcple. act. (f. walidah, du. walidan) 2:83, 2:180, 2:215, 2:233, 2:233, 4:7, 4:7, 4:33, 4:36, 4:135, 5:110, 6:151, 14:41, 17:23, 19:14, 19:32, 27:19, 29:8, 31:14, 31:14, 31:33, 31:33, 46:15, 46:15, 46:17, 71:28, 90:3
pcple. pass. 2:233, 2:233, 31:33

walad n.m. (pl. awlad) 2:116, 2:233, 2:233, 2:233, 2:233, 3:10, 3:47, 3:116, 4:11, 4:11, 4:11, 4:12, 4:12, 4:12, 4:12, 4:171, 4:176, 4:176, 6:101, 6:137, 6:140, 6:151, 8:28, 9:55, 9:69, 9:85, 10:68, 12:21, 17:31, 17:64, 17:111, 18:4, 18:39, 19:35, 19:77, 19:88, 19:91, 19:92, 21:26, 23:91, 25:2, 28:9, 31:33, 34:35, 34:37, 39:4, 43:81, 57:20, 58:17, 60:3, 60:12, 63:9, 64:14, 64:15, 71:21, 72:3

walid n.m. (pl. wildan) 4:75, 4:98, 4:127, 26:18, 56:17, 73:17, 76:19

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages: 220, 221, 222

What you also leave out is the "bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence" stated in 2:240, which is also not considered.

2:240 والذين and the ones يتوفون who die منكم from you ويذرون and leave أزواجا spouse?s وصية a will لأزواجهم for their spouse?s متاعا matāʿan provision إلى to الحول al-ḥawli the cycle غير not إخراج driving out فإن so if خرجن they leave فلا so not جناح blame عليكم on you في in ما what فعلن they do في in أنفسهن themselves من from معروف honorably والله and The God عزيز Mighty حكيم Wise

Inheritance verses are applied separate (IF no will) and after all bequests are paid.


Sorry, but your argument is based on the obfuscation of a word, which you are re-assigning a new meaning to and then following it up with re-interpretation.

See above http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth

37:152 ولد child/born/begot الله The God وإنهم and indeed they لكاذبون surely liars
3:47 قالت said رب Lord أنى how يكون will be لي to me ولد walad/son
4:11  إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد child/born/begot

Plenty of examples: 4:11 and 54:17 للذكر to the male/remembrance (use context best non-contradicting meaning).

Now carefully read and re-test your basic IF THEN ELSE logic... 3 daughters, parents, wife

4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son
4:12... ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born/begot فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight

IF no child/born THEN wife share = 1/4 (false, there are daughters i.e. children)
ELSE IF son THEN wife share = 1/8 (false, no son)
Thus wife share and parents for this case = variable

Therefore: 1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife)

Peace!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 13, 2012, 04:18:27 PM
And?

What have you added or improved? Nothing. You just repeat your position and think it suddenly works by magic.
On the one hand you show the multitude of meanings and then you assert that, when it suits you, it MUST only this.

You come up with this faulty "IF THEN ELSE logic" and abort it in the very next line. Why do you insist on introducing a son? Only because it serves your purpose?

I ask you some questions to try and narrow it down, but you can't answer them and choose to simply ignore them.

Come on, stop being so dogmatic and boring and bring some real arguments.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 13, 2012, 04:27:35 PM
And?

What have you added or improved? Nothing.


The verses distribute perfectly for every possible case...

Quote
I ask you some questions to try and narrow it down, but you can't answer them and choose to simply ignore them.

All your questions were answered -- do you want to try another example?

Quote
Come on, stop being so dogmatic and boring and bring some real arguments.

Quote
You come up with this faulty "IF THEN ELSE logic" and abort it in the very next line. Why do you insist on introducing a son? Only because it serves your purpose?

Most the reciters have correct sequence for verse 4:11 walad/son followed by waladun child/born/begot.

Surah 04 An-Nisaa Complete
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4tyaki83aY
Scroll to verse 4:11 at 04:29 minute, walad/son 05:03 minute then waladun child/born/begot 05:07 minute.

That was to show slight difference in reading and we are to use the best (39:18) non-contradicting meaning.
The case was: 3 daughters, parents, and wife.

Simply read exactly as stated and apply basic IF THEN ELSE logic what differentiates the human from cattle...

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصية a will يوصين they made بها in it أو or دين judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment وإن and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ a brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so for each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا they were أكثر more من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصية a will يوصى is recommended بها in it أو or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصية a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلالة al-kalālati (the fatherless spouseless) إن if امرؤ a person هلك died ليس is not له to that person ولد waladun child/born وله and has أخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it إن if لم not يكن is لها to her ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كانتا were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the two thirds مما from what ترك left وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings رجالا men/males ونساء and females فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 14, 2012, 02:47:24 AM
peace StopS,

I am disappointed in your replies to Nun.

For example, you seem to imply that he did not answer any of your questions when he did, or at the very least, answered some/most. The right response from you should have been to explain why his answers did not satisfy.

Here are some clear examples:

StopS said:
Where is the adherence of the text which says very explicitly: "parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children"
Why do you insist on introducing a son?

Nun clearly explained why in reply 19, and then later.


So the disagreement between you two is the meaning of "walad/waladun".

You previously said "This means that your view of walad being a single boy is not universally accepted.". This implicitly admits that there are different views on this. Nun is one of those with a differing view.

So you admit, indirectly, that theoretically "wld" could be taken as "son" or "children". So Nun's view is theoretically possible, according to you.

The point you should be arguing is that whether this is a valid reading/recitation of Quran. Since Quran had no tashkeel/vocalisation initially, then it would seem so. If you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it forth.

Perhaps Nun could have clarified he is alluding to different recitation/reading of Quran script, without vocalisation marks. I believe this is what he is saying. Nun, please correct me if I am wrong.


And lastly, another example, you did not even refer to his answering of your statement on 2:240 "What you also leave out is the "bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence" stated in 2:240, which is also not considered."
Nun said: "Inheritance verses are applied separate (IF no will) and after all bequests are paid."

If you disagree, even though this seems fairly straightforward, please state why.


In summary, if I have understood correctly, Nun's view is certainly unorthodox (nothing wrong with that however) but not impossible. If you can prove it is impossible, I am all ears.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 14, 2012, 02:57:27 AM
peace Nun,

I have little interest in evangelizing or proving anything to anyone especially annoying missionaries, followers of hearsay, math deficiate numerologists or the godless aroused at miss-leading others into the abysss chanting...

I agree that most of the time, telling such people can be a waste of time, however, sometimes, it can help refine/prove/disproe one's understanding. It is sometimes handy channelling their seemingly anti-islam fervour for one's own use, e.g. checking a theory one has.

For example, in the past, I posted Quran434.com's understanding on faithfreedom and offered a $ incentive if they were able to disprove it. No-one challenged. I did this to check my understanding, but also to expose the type of people you described. Some are heedless, and parrot what they've been told, but I like to think it may have made some think differently. God knows best.


My offer still stands.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 14, 2012, 11:06:08 AM
Peace Wakas,

Perhaps Nun could have clarified he is alluding to different recitation/reading of Quran script, without vocalisation marks. I believe this is what he is saying. Nun, please correct me if I am wrong.

12:21 وقال and said الذي the one who اشتراه bought him من from مصر Egypt لامرأته to his woman/wife أكرمي make comfortable مثواه his stay عسى perhaps أن that ينفعنا he will benefit us أو or نتخذه we take him ولدا for a son (trailing alif denotes for)
4:11... ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

Yes, the first ولد in verse 4:11 means son therefore parents get 1/6 fixed share only IF there is a son present else their shares are variable.

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father = 2/3 son/s (variable)
1 - 1/6 mother/father = 5/6 (son/s + daughter/s) 2:1 ratio male to female

1 - 1/2 one daughter = 1/2 mother/father (variable)
1 - 2/3 three daughters (2/9 each) = 1/3 mother/father

Likewise the word can also mean child/born e.g. 4:12 husband only gets the fixed 1/4 if son is present, 1/2 if no child/born else if only daughters husband shares are variable/unstated.

19:15 وسلام and peace عليه upon him يوم day ولد wulida/born ويوم and day يموت he dies ويوم and day يبعث he is raised حيا alive
4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن was لهن for them ولد waladun/child born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

1 - 1/4 husband (fixed, son=true) = 3/4 son/s (variable)
1 - 1/4 husband (fixed, son=true) = 3/4 (son/s + daughter/s) 2:1 ratio male to female

1 - 2/3 three daughters (2/9 each) = 1/3 husband (variable; son=false; no child/born=false)

1 - 1/2 husband (fixed, no child/born=true) = 1/2 mother/father (variable; son=false)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 14, 2012, 11:37:09 AM

The verses distribute perfectly for every possible case...

All your questions were answered -- do you want to try another example?

Most the reciters have correct sequence for verse 4:11 walad/son followed by waladun child/born/begot.

That was to show slight difference in reading and we are to use the best (39:18) non-contradicting meaning.
The case was: 3 daughters, parents, and wife.

Simply read exactly as stated and apply basic IF THEN ELSE logic what differentiates the human from cattle...


You are kidding yourself. No, the calculation is almost always faulty and requires human intervention.

No, you did not answer my questions.

Why are you doing this? Do you really believe you have solved something?

Let me explain it again as there seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere:
I asked for the calculation of an inheritance according to the Koran, where the estate needs to be divided amongst just a few people:
a wife, 3 daughters, and 2 parents.

In the Koran, in 4:11 it states regarding inheritance of daughters:
if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves

I understand this to mean: if there are more than 2 daughters, i.e. 3 daughters, they inherit 2/3rds of the estate. This is an interpretation as it does not explicitly or literally say daughter and only mentions "more than 2" and what "he" leaves.

Next in 4:11 it says regarding the inheritance of the parents:
and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children

I understand this to mean: if there are children, then the parents each receive 1/6th of the estate. Why do I think this? Well, because it then says but if he has no children, which makes sense logically, because you have a case for the presence of children, which is different than the case for no children.

Finally, for this simple example, the Koran specifies in 4:11:
but if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth

This is again an interpretation, as the Koran does not specify whom this is addressing, but the context shows us this is directed at the wives. Again we have the same split of a couple having children or no children, which changes the portion of the estate, in this case, because there are children, the Koran specifies an eighth for the wife.


So if I take above fractions and use the closest common denominator, we get 3 + 16 + 8 = 27/24   which is a bit too much.

What Noon does is perform some magic and comes up with

[/quote]
1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife)
Quote

or: 1 - 2/3 = 1/3 = 9/27

He specifies this as 3 daughters, 2/9 each, where the 2/9 each is not mentioned anywhere, least of all the Koran. He just makes it up.

Noon is now left with 1/3, which he splits evenly between parents and wife, where the Koran says:

each one of the two the sixth and for them of what you leave an eighth

Why does Noon think the Koran requires his personal adjustment? Because apologists over the years have noticed the same problems and have tried to find ways around this by re-re-interpreting the words.

So Noon changes the word walad from children into son and the inheritance laws are suddenly different. But do they make any sense?

In 4:11 we have a reference to sons: Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females.
A male child is commonly known as a son. Is the word walad used here? No. Why not?
If walad really would mean son, then why is the portion of the parents reduced to 1/9 and not 1/12 or 1/123? Where in the Koran does it aspecify 1/9 if the condition is not met?

In 4:12 we have the word 4 times. Are all 4 times considered to mean "son"? Are all these instances excluding female children completely? Why does this version discriminate against females? Young females!

In 4:176 we have "If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child", which would need to be changed to "If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no son". Also, "he would have inherited from her had she died childless" would be changed to "he would have inherited from her had she died sonless". What a mess!

So up until now all I see is someone arbitrarily changing what has been universally accepted for hundreds of years and now apparently requires an adjustment.

Let me look at what others say about this. I have no idea what level of knowledge Noon has and whether he has studied ancient or classical Arabic and is qualified to make changes to the interpretation of the Koran, so let me look at what people say who DO have these qualifications.

Quote
World of Islam says:

This is because, in a strictly patriarchal family as envisaged by Islam, men shoulder most of the financial burdens of their dependants, who often include parents of both spouses, their siblings in need, their own children, orphans within the inner family, consanguines from the wider family, their education, their marriages, their medical bills etc.

ii) If the deceased has no sons but is survived by daughters only, two or more, they inherit two thirds of the estate after deducting all valid bequests and outstanding debts and the rest is divided between other relatives;

iii) If the deceased has one daughter, she inherits half the estate after deductions as above and the rest is divided between other relatives;

iv) If the deceased has children as well as both the parents, the parents inherit one sixth of the estate each

Quote
Ibn Kathir:
Then Allah cancelled whatever He willed from that custom and ordained that the male get twice the amount inherited by the female, and for each parent a sixth (of the whole legacy), for the wife an eighth or a fourth, and for the husband a half or a fourth.

(For parents, a sixth share of inheritance to each) There are several forms of the share that the parents get in the inheritance. 1. If the deceased left behind children, the parents get a sixth each.

Hilali-Khan:
For parents, a sixth share of inheritance to each if the deceased left children;

Dr. Susmit Kumar:
A male shall inherit twice as much as a female. If there be more than two girls, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance, but if there be one only, she shall inherit the half. Parents shall inherit a sixth each, if the deceased have a child; but if he leave no child and his parents be his heirs, his mother shall have a third.

Nope, they don't agree.

If I look at other instances of the word, I come across only the description of a god with children, where it is used as son because the Christians say Jesus was a son of a god.

In conclusion I see that someone uses parlour tricks to obfuscate the shortfalls of a literal usage of the Koran. Not convincing and a common apologetic trick I see from Christians all the time.
The inheritance calculation does not take into account contextual sentences which also claim a portion of the estate, which I pointed out but Noon chose to ignore. The entire construct does not use the Koran as was decreed many centuries ago, but hinges solely around the re-translation of a word, which has been is use in a sense different than what Noon is trying to use it as.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 14, 2012, 11:50:28 AM
Quote
Yes, the first ولد in verse 4:11 means son


"son" may be substitued since it denotes only male. The word is however اسم جنس. It includes a daughter. This is the subject noun of deficient verb. "Lahu" is relating to its predicate. "provided a child exists as heir of him". The response clause for the condition is not needed since its effect is narrated prior to it.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 14, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
peace StopS,

I am disappointed in your replies to Nun.

I am sorry to hear that. I will try to improve.

Quote
For example, you seem to imply that he did not answer any of your questions when he did, or at the very least, answered some/most. The right response from you should have been to explain why his answers did not satisfy.

Here are some clear examples:

StopS said:
Where is the adherence of the text which says very explicitly: "parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children"
Why do you insist on introducing a son?

Nun clearly explained why in reply 19, and then later.

This is what I asked:
Please show me where in the Koran it says that the inheritance is divided into shares which can be re-allocated?
Where in my example is there a son?
Please show me where in the Koran the 1/9 comes up.
Where is the adherence of the text which says very explicitly: "parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children" or "parents, a sixth share to each"
What happened to the decree for the wives: "if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth"?
Can 1/8 decided in the Koran, be changed to 1/9 by a human?
Why do you insist on introducing a son? Only because it serves your purpose?

Nothing was clearly explained. He just repeated a claim, without explanation. His main effort was a simple copy/paste exercise and repeating the inheritance paragraphs. I can do that myself, which is why I asked: Why? Where? Show me, what happened etc etc.


Quote
So the disagreement between you two is the meaning of "walad/waladun".

Not really. I disagree with the re-interpretation of a word, rendering the rest of the sentences largely useless, which has already been demonstrated above.

Quote
You previously said "This means that your view of walad being a single boy is not universally accepted.". This implicitly admits that there are different views on this. Nun is one of those with a differing view.

So you admit, indirectly, that theoretically "wld" could be taken as "son" or "children". So Nun's view is theoretically possible, according to you.

Yes. Absolutely. Not only indirectly.

Quote
The point you should be arguing is that whether this is a valid reading/recitation of Quran. Since Quran had no tashkeel/vocalisation initially, then it would seem so. If you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it forth.

And that has been my point all along.

Quote
Perhaps Nun could have clarified he is alluding to different recitation/reading of Quran script, without vocalisation marks. I believe this is what he is saying. Nun, please correct me if I am wrong.

Ah, that could be an explanation, but does not answer the why.

Quote
And lastly, another example, you did not even refer to his answering of your statement on 2:240 "What you also leave out is the "bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence" stated in 2:240, which is also not considered."
Nun said: "Inheritance verses are applied separate (IF no will) and after all bequests are paid."

If you disagree, even though this seems fairly straightforward, please state why.

Thank you for the clarification. I did not identify this as the answer to my question. :)  My mistake, sorry.

And you are right, I disagree. WHY are other decrees considered after everything else is paid?
Here, we have an over-subscription - which, by the way, online inheritance calculators acknowledge -  and there should still be  "a year's maintenance and residence" paid from this? How?

Quote
In summary, if I have understood correctly, Nun's view is certainly unorthodox (nothing wrong with that however) but not impossible. If you can prove it is impossible, I am all ears.

I agree and that's why it requires a clear explanation.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 14, 2012, 02:04:34 PM
Peace and welcome back StopS,

You are kidding yourself. No, the calculation is almost always faulty and requires human intervention.

No, you did not answer my questions.

Why are you doing this? Do you really believe you have solved something?

No, the calculations are correct.
Yes, answered your questions.
To accurately distribute shares.
Yes.

Let me explain it again as there seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere:
I asked for the calculation of an inheritance according to the Koran, where the estate needs to be divided amongst just a few people:
a wife, 3 daughters, and 2 parents.

In the Koran, in 4:11 it states regarding inheritance of daughters:
if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves

I understand this to mean: if there are more than 2 daughters, i.e. 3 daughters, they inherit 2/3rds of the estate. This is an interpretation as it does not explicitly or literally say daughter and only mentions "more than 2" and what "he" leaves.

It explicitly starts and specifically addresses "your children" therefore about daughters...

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children
للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) ... IF MIXED 2:1 ratio male to female
فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds  ... ELSE IF females/daughters > 2  = 2/3
وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ... AND IF one/daughter = 1/2

Note: case of exactly two daughters "alone" is unstated and therefore variable.

Next in 4:11 it says regarding the inheritance of the parents:
and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children

I understand this to mean: if there are children, then the parents each receive 1/6th of the estate. Why do I think this? Well, because it then says but if he has no children, which makes sense logically, because you have a case for the presence of children, which is different than the case for no children.

No. It says they get 1/6 fixed IF male/child/son present and continues ELSE IF no child/born (it's like a computer program) ...

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son
فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third

Logically it all makes perfect sense since all the combinations/calculations distribute perfectly!

Finally, for this simple example, the Koran specifies in 4:11:
but if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth

This is again an interpretation, as the Koran does not specify whom this is addressing, but the context shows us this is directed at the wives. Again we have the same split of a couple having children or no children, which changes the portion of the estate, in this case, because there are children, the Koran specifies an eighth for the wife.

So if I take above fractions and use the closest common denominator, we get 3 + 16 + 8 = 27/24   which is a bit too much.

No. You are not following the instructions in Qur'an which leads to errors and bad math.

Let me ask this -- why are all my calculations correct for all combinations and yours not?

son/s, daughter/s: distribute 2:1 ratio male to female

mother/father, son/s: 1/6 5/6
mother/father, 1 daughter : 1/2 1/2 no son, mother/father variable
mother/father, 2 daughters: 1/3 2/3 (2 daughters variable) all share equally
mother/father, 3 daughters: 1/3 2/3

mother, father : 1/3 2/3
mother, brother/s: 1/6 5/6

mother/father, husband: 1/2 1/2
mother/father, wife  : 3/4 1/4

husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/2 1/2 not childless; no son; husband/wife variable
husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/3 2/3
husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/3 2/3

continue every case...


If I look at other instances of the word, I come across only the description of a god with children, where it is used as son because the Christians say Jesus was a son of a god.

In conclusion I see that someone uses parlour tricks to obfuscate the shortfalls of a literal usage of the Koran. Not convincing and a common apologetic trick I see from Christians all the time.

Have a closer look it can mean son or child/born (use context apply best non-contradicting meaning).

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wld#(4:11:33)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 14, 2012, 02:17:55 PM

"son" may be substitued since it denotes only male. The word is however اسم جنس. It includes a daughter. This is the subject noun of deficient verb. "Lahu" is relating to its predicate. "provided a child exists as heir of him". The response clause for the condition is not needed since its effect is narrated prior to it.

Peace Mazhar,

If "it includes a daughter" solve: mother, father, 3 daughters, husband?

Please explain if these are grammatically correct?

4:11 ... فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له lahu/to person ولد walad/son
4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن was لهن for them ولد waladun/child born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 15, 2012, 04:36:56 AM
Peace and welcome back StopS,

No, the calculations are correct.
Yes, answered your questions.
To accurately distribute shares.


Ok, I have shown you why I think the methodology is wrong. If you insist on your interpretation it is your choice.

Thanks
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 15, 2012, 08:55:04 AM
Ok, I have shown you why I think the methodology is wrong. If you insist on your interpretation it is your choice.

Thanks

Like the rest you chose to interpret child/born where it should be son thus your math errors, contradicts, and reading makes no sense.

19:34-35 ذلك that عيسى Isa/Jesus ابن son مريم Mary قول speech الحق the truth الذي the one فيه in it يمترون they dispute ما not كان is لله to God أن that يتخذ He should take من from ولد a son سبحانه Glory be to Him إذا when قضى He decrees أمرا a matter فإنما so only يقول He says له to it كن be فيكون so it becomes

28:9 وقالت and said امرأت woman فرعون Pharaoh قرت joy عين eye لي to me ولك and to you لا not تقتلوه kill him عسى perhaps أن that ينفعنا he will benefit us أو or نتخذه we take him ولدا for a son وهم and they لا not يشعرون they realize

4:11 ? ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد a son  

Parents get 1/6 IF son present ELSE their share is variable.

1 - 1/6 mother/father (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable)
1 ? 1/2 daughter (fixed) = 1/2 mother/father (variable)
1 ? 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 parents (variable)

Thank you, best wishes (I did like your video), and peace!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 15, 2012, 08:56:25 AM
Quote
Please explain if these are grammatically correct?

4:11 ... فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له lahu/to person ولد walad/son


I hope no one disputes that the pattern of understanding English and Arabic are quite different. The above style of translating Arabic text into English is reflective as if both the languages are considered of similar origins and nature. It has all the possibilities of leading to a perception that might not be present in the original Arabic text.

وَلِأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ

This is inverted nominal sentence where the Subject-Topic of sentence is red word.

إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ

This is a conditional clause. The Subject of the Deficient Past Verb in Jussive state is the red word which is delayed and لَهُ relates to the fronted Predicate which is not visible there but is understood because of the verb and its subject, denoting presence-existence of the Subject. The apodosis of this conditional clause is elided since it is described in the preceding sentence. The masculine Pronoun third person refers back to the subject of  verb تَرَكَ-meaning the deceased man.
This clause stands amended in case the situation on ground is this:

فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ

This clause perhaps leaves no room to restrict the earlier وَلَد to son only.  أَبَوَاهُ is the subject of Verb وَرِثَهُ showing that the deceased had neither a son nor a daughter as inheritor.

A reference to 2:233 might clarify that this word includes son and daughter. Thanks

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 15, 2012, 09:20:56 AM


I hope no one disputes that the pattern of understanding English and Arabic are quite different. The above style of translating Arabic text into English is reflective as if both the languages are considered of similar origins and nature. It has all the possibilities of leading to a perception that might not be present in the original Arabic text.

وَلِأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ

This is inverted nominal sentence where the Subject-Topic of sentence is red word.

إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ

This is a conditional clause. The Subject of the Deficient Past Verb in Jussive state is the red word which is delayed and لَهُ relates to the fronted Predicate which is not visible there but is understood because of the verb and its subject, denoting presence-existence of the Subject. The apodosis of this conditional clause is elided since it is described in the preceding sentence. The masculine Pronoun third person refers back to the subject of  verb تَرَكَ-meaning the deceased man.
This clause stands amended in case the situation on ground is this:

فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ

This clause perhaps leaves no room to restrict the earlier وَلَد to son only.  أَبَوَاهُ is the subject of Verb وَرِثَهُ showing that the deceased had neither a son nor a daughter as inheritor.

A reference to 2:233 might clarify that this word includes son and daughter. Thanks

Peace Mazhar,

Yes it can also mean both i.e. child/born although in that part of verse 4:11 it does not.

Apply to case: mother, father, 3 daughters, husband -- what's left to give the husband?

Apply what you wrote to verses below; how can these also pertain to child/born or daughter?

19:34-35 ذلك that عيسى Isa/Jesus ابن son مريم Mary قول speech الحق the truth الذي the one فيه in it يمترون they dispute ما not كان is لله to God أن that يتخذ He should take من from ولد a son سبحانه Glory be to Him إذا when قضى He decrees أمرا a matter فإنما so only يقول He says له to it كن be فيكون so it becomes

28:9 وقالت and said امرأت woman فرعون Pharaoh قرت joy عين eye لي to me ولك and to you لا not تقتلوه kill him عسى perhaps أن that ينفعنا he will benefit us أو or نتخذه we take him ولدا for a son وهم and they لا not يشعرون they realize

4:11 إن if كان is له to person ولد son فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد child/born

Surah 04 An-Nisaa Complete http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4tyaki83aY
Scroll 4:11 at 04:29 minute, walad/son 05:03 minute, waladun child/born 05:07 minute.

What?s missing is slight difference in recitation even though spelling is identical as in?

4:11 للذكر to the male
54:17 للذكر to the remembrance


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 15, 2012, 12:09:55 PM
The point-evidence in post 33 first needs to be rebutted. Thereafter one could proclaim

Quote
Yes it can also mean both i.e. child/born although in that part of verse 4:11 it does not.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 15, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
The point-evidence in post 33 first needs to be rebutted. Thereafter one could proclaim

Already replied, evidence shown, see my last post above...

Now are you going to avoid applying your interpretation and logic to solve this simple case or not?

mother, father, 3 daughters, husband

Thus according to Mazhar's interpretation: 1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 daughters = 1 leaves husband nothing!

Then they use algebra to normalize which can be applied to fix any shortfall/excess.

See stupid calculator and input to see amounts which are never stated in Qur'an.

http://www.islamicsoftware.org/irth/irth.html

Daughters get 8/45 each
Husband gets 1/5
Father gets 2/15
Mother gets 2/15

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 15, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
Dear, I am not in mathematics or algebra. My point is simply this:

Quote
فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ

This clause perhaps leaves no room to restrict the earlier وَلَد to son only.  أَبَوَاهُ is the subject of Verb وَرِثَهُ showing that the deceased had neither a son nor a daughter as inheritor.

A reference to 2:233 might clarify that this word includes son and daughter. Thanks


For my convenience to understand the Ayah through your mathematics please be simple for me showing only the amount by the percentage of share allowed for them.

Inheritance left by a Deceased Man=Rs. 1000/-

Mourners left.

1. Three daughters only
2.Father
3. Mother
4. Wife [widow]
5. Brother 1

.......................
Mourners
1. One son only
2.Father
3. Mother
4. Wife [widow]
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 15, 2012, 11:27:47 PM
Peace Mazhar,

Dear, I am not in mathematics or algebra. My point is simply this:

Quote
فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ

This clause perhaps leaves no room to restrict the earlier وَلَد to son only.  أَبَوَاهُ is the subject of Verb وَرِثَهُ showing that the deceased had neither a son nor a daughter as inheritor.

A reference to 2:233 might clarify that this word includes son and daughter. Thanks

You are correct in that 2nd occurrence waladun child/born means deceased had no child/born/begot.
My argument is 1st occurrence walad/son is different from 2nd occurrence waladun/child/born/begot.

It?s always إن IF كان kāna/is له to person ولد walad/son which كان kāna points to singular masculine.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن kunna/are (feminine plural) نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن yakun/was له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان kāna/is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان kāna/is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse?s إن if لم not يكن yakun/was لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان kāna/is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصية a will يوصين they made بها in it أو or دين judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن yakun/was لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان kāna/is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment وإن and if كان kāna/is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so for each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا kānū/they were أكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصية a will يوصى is recommended بها in it أو or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصية a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing


For my convenience to understand the Ayah through your mathematics please be simple for me showing only the amount by the percentage of share allowed for them.

Inheritance left by a Deceased Man=Rs. 1000/-

Mourners left.

1. Three daughters only = 2/3 fixed
4:11 فإن so if كن kunna/are (feminine plural) نساء females فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
2. Father = variable/unstated no son and there is a child
3. Mother = variable/unstated no son and there is a child
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son
4:11 فإن so if لم not يكن yakun/was له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third
4. Wife [widow] = variable/unstated no son and there is a child
4:12 ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن yakun/was لكم to you ولد waladun/child born
4:12 فإن so if كان kāna/is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight
5. Brother 1 = 0 siblings only inherit if deceased was kalala; not case father/spouse present

1 ? 2/3 three daughters 2/9 each = 1/3 divided equally; all are variable/unstated (1/9 father + 1/9 mother + 1/9 wife)

2/3*1000 = 666.667 three daughters 2/9*1000 = 222.222 each
1/9*1000 = 111.111 father
1/9*1000 = 111.111 mother
1/9*1000 = 111.111 wife

.......................
Mourners
1. One son only = variable/unstated
2. Father = 1/6
3. Mother = 1/6
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son
4. Wife [widow] = 1/8
4:12 فإن so if كان kāna/is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight

1 ? 1/6 father ? 1/6 mother ? 1/8 wife = 13/24 son (variable/unstated gets remainder)
13/24*1000 = 541.667 son
1/6 * 1000 = 166.667 father
1/6 * 1000 = 166.667 mother
1/8 * 1000 = 125.000 wife

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 16, 2012, 02:20:46 AM
Quote
1 ? 2/3 three daughters 2/9 each = 1/3 divided equally; all are variable/unstated (1/9 father + 1/9 mother + 1/9 wife)

2/3*1000 = 666.667 three daughters 2/9*1000 = 222.222 each
1/9*1000 = 111.111 father
1/9*1000 = 111.111 mother
1/9*1000 = 111.111 wife


So you are proposing that after meeting the injunction about daughters the left over should be equally distrubted amonst the other three father, mother and wife.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 16, 2012, 05:14:16 AM
peace StopS,

What I find odd about your questions is that you mix seemingly poor questions with seemingly good ones, e.g.

You said:
"WHY are other decrees considered after everything else is paid?"

This is well understood by the verses 4:11, 4:12 e.g.

Various translations:
...All after a will is carried through or a debt....
after [the deduction of] any bequest he may have made, or any debt [he may have incurred].

*the word debt can also mean obligation.


Granted, I have not studied the inheritance issue, but I think the above is fairly obvious. What say you?

My only original concern with Nun about his theory was that this would make "nisa" mean "females" whilst everywhere else, afaik, it means "women". I did not research this avenue however.
I dont really have a problem with a different reading based on an originally unvocalised text.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 16, 2012, 10:08:09 AM

So you are proposing that after meeting the injunction about daughters the left over should be equally distrubted amonst the other three father, mother and wife.

Correct. Any case when shares are variable/unstated an equal split; examples...

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)
1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/stated) = 5/6 son/s (variable/unstated share equally)

1 - 1/4 wife (fixed/stated) = 3/4 mother/father (variable/unstated)
1 - 1/2 husband (fixed/stated) = 1/2 parents share equally (variable/unstated)

1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/stated) = 1/2 spouse (variable/unstated)
1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/stated) = 1/2 spouse and parent/s share equally (variable/unstated)

1 - 1/8 wife (fixed/stated) = 7/8 children mixed (variable/unstated)
In above case only ratio 2:1 male to female is known, amount is not

When looking at the precise word selection and each case the logic is amazing!

My only original concern with Nun about his theory was that this would make "nisa" mean "females" whilst everywhere else, afaik, it means "women". I did not research this avenue however.
I dont really have a problem with a different reading based on an originally unvocalised text.

Nisa are females any age (use context to figure out age) otherwise all girls would be excluded from inheritance who have not reached adulthood which in case of orphans their shares are kept from them until they reach adulthood/sound mind anyways which one can say would be the same for non orphans as well although up to their father.

4:2 وآتوا and give اليتامى the orphans أموالهم their wealth ولا and not تتبدلوا exchange الخبيث the bad بالطيب with the good ولا and not تأكلوا eat أموالهم their wealth إلى to أموالكم your wealth إنه indeed it كان is حوبا sin كبيرا large

4:6 وابتلوا and test اليتامى the orphans حتى until إذا when بلغوا reached النكاح the marriage فإن so if آنستم you perceive منهم from them رشدا rational فادفعوا so deliver إليهم to them أموالهم their wealth ولا and not تأكلوها eat/consume it إسرافا wastefully وبدارا and hastily أن lest/that يكبروا they grow up ومن and from كان is غنيا rich فليستعفف so should refrain ومن and from كان is فقيرا poor فليأكل so let eat/consume بالمعروف in fair manner فإذا so when دفعتم you deliver إليهم to them أموالهم their wealth فأشهدوا so take witnesses عليهم on them وكفى and sufficient بالله with The God حسيبا Reckoner

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 16, 2012, 12:15:31 PM
peace StopS,

What I find odd about your questions is that you mix seemingly poor questions with seemingly good ones, e.g.

You said:
"WHY are other decrees considered after everything else is paid?"

This is well understood by the verses 4:11, 4:12 e.g.

Various translations:
...All after a will is carried through or a debt....
after [the deduction of] any bequest he may have made, or any debt [he may have incurred].

*the word debt can also mean obligation.


Granted, I have not studied the inheritance issue, but I think the above is fairly obvious. What say you?

My only original concern with Nun about his theory was that this would make "nisa" mean "females" whilst everywhere else, afaik, it means "women". I did not research this avenue however.
I dont really have a problem with a different reading based on an originally unvocalised text.

Why do you find odd that some things are more difficult for me than others? I am unable at times to concisely express what I want to know. It proves I am human :)

My point is: I can't see any consistency here. Yes, as you say: it CAN mean this or that or something else.

If I look at the Koran and look at what has been said about the sentences for 1000 years and now see that a person says it actually does not mean "A", but it means "C" and then I check this with a Koran teacher who says it means "B" and a Koran scholar says it means "D" and the Islamic calculators disagree with all of them, I ask myself: what am I supposed to believe?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 16, 2012, 01:00:15 PM
peace,

Nisa are females any age (use context to figure out age) otherwise all girls would be excluded from inheritance who have not reached adulthood which in case of orphans their shares are kept from them until they reach adulthood/sound mind anyways which one can say would be the same for non orphans as well although up to their father.

AFAIK "untha" is for females, hence my comment. Girls could be covered under waladun/children. I have not studied it, so cant say.

IF you have studied it AND shown it does not work, can you provide one clear example? This would then take this theory off the table.

Background:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11583.0
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 16, 2012, 01:10:10 PM
peace StopS,

My point was your questioning (and apparently video - I have not watched it) indicated you have somewhat studied this topic, thus when you come out with something obviously not an issue (as if you haven't read it), it makes me wonder about credibility/sincerity/etc.

If you feel you are looking at this objectively, sincerely etc, fair enough.

If I look at the Koran and look at what has been said about the sentences for 1000 years and now see that a person says it actually does not mean "A", but it means "C" and then I check this with a Koran teacher who says it means "B" and a Koran scholar says it means "D" and the Islamic calculators disagree with all of them, I ask myself: what am I supposed to believe?

Firstly, almost all of the Quran tafsir/interpretation out there is based heavily on tradition, which most of us here reject the necessity of. Thus, if you are asking Traditionalists questions seeking answers, or looking at Quran through their eyes, then of course you will find multiple views and problems etc. Does this disprove Quran? No.

If a person finds a problem with Quran's content based only upon what they can prove from Quran, then fair enough. From my experience, I know that Traditional understandings are often filled with errors. For a brilliant example of this, see: www.Quran434.com
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 16, 2012, 01:24:33 PM
peace StopS,

My point was your questioning (and apparently video - I have not watched it) indicated you have somewhat studied this topic, thus when you come out with something obviously not an issue (as if you haven't read it), it makes me wonder about credibility/sincerity/etc.

Ah, now I understand. You don't say which is what, so I can't comment.

Quote
If you feel you are looking at this objectively, sincerely etc, fair enough.

Firstly, almost all of the Quran tafsir/interpretation out there is based heavily on tradition, which most of us here reject the necessity of. Thus, if you are asking Traditionalists questions seeking answers, or looking at Quran through their eyes, then of course you will find multiple views and problems etc. Does this disprove Quran? No.

If a person finds a problem with Quran's content based only upon what they can prove from Quran, then fair enough. From my experience, I know that Traditional understandings are often filled with errors. For a brilliant example of this, see: www.Quran434.com

Ok, you started off well enough - and I find a second half missing somehow.

Oh dear, I am not trying to disprove the Koran. I disprove claims. Or try to, anyway. But here and now I am trying to understand how Muslims handle "problematic" areas of the Koran in 2012. Looking at the 3 inheritance verses it is obvious they are not so clear and easy to understand as we see a lot of interpretation and wriggling and different results every time you ask.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 16, 2012, 01:53:49 PM
Quote
Firstly, almost all of the Quran tafsir/interpretation out there is based heavily on tradition, which most of us here reject the necessity of. Thus, if you are asking Traditionalists questions seeking answers, or looking at Quran through their eyes, then of course you will find multiple views and problems etc. Does this disprove Quran? No.

StopS

But let me clarify that use of "traditionalists" will seem nothing but a joke or trick since all translations of so called modernists are also nothing but copy of the "traditional translations". Dozens of translations are available on this site and let anyone know me where they have any difference worth mentioning.

Noon is inserting Arabic words from left to right, exposing many many translators what they understood of Arabic and how they read the Arabic of Qur'aan.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/11/default.htm (http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/11/default.htm)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 16, 2012, 02:30:59 PM
But let me clarify that use of "traditionalists" will seem nothing but a joke or trick since all translations of so called modernists are also nothing but copy of the "traditional translations". Dozens of translations are available on this site and let anyone know me where they have any difference worth mentioning.

Many examples. One: www.Quran434.com
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 16, 2012, 02:47:25 PM
Many examples. One: www.Quran434.com

Today I again scrolled it only to fail to find the translation of the Ayah that is discussed therein.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 16, 2012, 03:06:50 PM
StopS

But let me clarify that use of "traditionalists" will seem nothing but a joke or trick since all translations of so called modernists are also nothing but copy of the "traditional translations". Dozens of translations are available on this site and let anyone know me where they have any difference worth mentioning.

Noon is inserting Arabic words from left to right, exposing many many translators what they understood of Arabic and how they read the Arabic of Qur'aan.

I don't understand how inserting Arabic "exposes" anyone. Look at the page you offered.
in the event of his having
a child
if he have a son
if he has a child
if the deceased left children
if he would have a child
if you have children
if he had a son
if he has children
if the deceased leaves children
if for him was a child (son)
if you have children
his having left a child
if he has children


I can continue for some time and anyone will see that the classical understanding has always been: children.

Can this be wrong? Yes.
Would it make sense to substitute children with son?
Now it gets technical. I need to now construct different models to test this. And this is what apologists like Noon rely on: the laziness of people like me. I am sure I can construct examples which will render this model useless, but I don't really need to, because it serves only one single purpose: to make more rulings exempt so that the portions or beneficiaries can be freely distributed. That's the magic trick.

The more you remove from strict Koranic rulings and shift into the hands of humans, the more you can shift and wangle as desired. The consequence is the result you see in the online Islamic calculators which provide the most preposterous combinations which no longer have anything in common with the Koranic rules. Is it intellectually honest? In my eyes: no!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 16, 2012, 04:04:16 PM
I can continue for some time and anyone will see that the classical understanding has always been: children.

Can this be wrong? Yes.
Would it make sense to substitute children with son?
Now it gets technical. I need to now construct different models to test this. And this is what apologists like Noon rely on: the laziness of people like me. I am sure I can construct examples which will render this model useless, but I don't really need to, because it serves only one single purpose: to make more rulings exempt so that the portions or beneficiaries can be freely distributed. That's the magic trick.

Why do you call me names like apologist and trickster yet at same time admit you are lazy to study?
Everything I posted is according to Qur'an while majority scholars are ignorant who lack basic logic.

These are few examples of poor comprehension, bad logic/study, and none use of cross-reference.

Cutting off hands for theft nowhere stated in Qur'an...
5:38 والسارق and the male thief والسارقة and the female thief فاقطعوا so cut off أيديهما aydiyahumā for their hands
(i.e. cut off their means to perpetrate crime which trailing alif only usage أيديهم their hands denotes to/for)

4:176 الكلالة al-kalāla they are clueless only conjecture use funny math that you are familiar with.
Listen to this conspiracy ranter saying it means "daughter in law" and wrote a book on subject.

http://quranconference.nd.edu/lecture-abstracts
David S. Powers: ?BNF 328a and the Mystery of al-Kalala?

The word kalala occurs twice in the Quran, first in Quran 4:12b and again in 4:176. Although little-known today, even among native speakers of Arabic, this word was of great interest to the first Muslims. ?Umar b. al-Khattab, for example, is reported to have said that he would rather know the meaning of this word than possess a sum of money equal to the poll-tax levied on the fortresses of Byzantium. One might say that the meaning of kalala was a mystery. I will propose a solution to this mystery based upon examination of Biblioth?que Nationale de France 328a, a Quran codex written in the Hijazi script some time in the second half of the 1st century AH. Paleographic and codicological evidence indicates that the consonantal skeleton of Q. 4:12b was revised, with the result that the meaning of the sub-verse underwent a radical transformation. The revision of v. 12b, in turn, made it appear as if the inheritance rules contained in vv. 11-12 of surat al-nisa" are incomplete. This problem was solved by adding supplementary legislation at the end of surat al-nisa" ?what is now Q. 4:176, the second verse in which the word kalala occurs.


Noon is inserting Arabic words from left to right, exposing many many translators what they understood of Arabic and how they read the Arabic of Qur'aan.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/11/default.htm (http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/11/default.htm)

You have problem with my showing readers which words are being translated exactly or what's your point?

Back to topic; it's clear from math which all fits logically and also from basic speech...

4:11 وإن and if كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half
4:11 إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son

peace,

AFAIK "untha" is for females, hence my comment. Girls could be covered under waladun/children. I have not studied it, so cant say.

IF you have studied it AND shown it does not work, can you provide one clear example? This would then take this theory off the table.

Background:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11583.0

Peace Wakas,

It would also exclude all young siblings from inheriting and verse 4:176 ties the two together...

4:176... فإن so if كانتا kānatā/they are (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the two thirds مما from what ترك left وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) رجالا men/males ونساء wanisā and females فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 17, 2012, 01:10:46 AM
Quote
Nisa are females any age (use context to figure out age) otherwise all girls would be excluded from inheritance who have not reached adulthood which in case of orphans their shares are kept from them until they reach adulthood/sound mind anyways which one can say would be the same for non orphans as well although up to their father.

Nothing gets excluded from inheritance. The word used is "Women". It has no singular, just plural with diminuiive "few women". It is nowhere used for female of any age since age starts from birth to death. It solely denotes women. A person leaving behind property could be one when his daughters are already women.  Moreover, as you pointed out, they are handed over inheritance only when they become women-a female having become mature to enter marriage bond. The opposite gender of her is Man not boy or child.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 17, 2012, 07:11:58 AM
peace,


It would also exclude all young siblings from inheriting and verse 4:176 ties the two together...

4:176... فإن so if كانتا kānatā/they are (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the two thirds مما from what ترك left وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) رجالا men/males ونساء wanisā and females فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing 

It could be that since they are incapable of managing they do not inherit. What I was after was an example, that would disprove the theory. One or two will suffice.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 17, 2012, 09:00:20 AM
Salaam,

Because of this thread I wanted to study this subject.
But I got stuck already in the beginning of the verse.
I don?t understand why ثُلُثَا is translated everywhere as 2/3.
From other words I learned that when a couple is mentioned it finishes with ?ayni?.
So I expected here ?thulathayni? instead of ?thulathaa?.

Also please check verse 73:20
"...  إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدْنَىٰ مِنْ ثُلُثَيِ  اللَّيْلِ وَنِصْفَهُ وَثُلُثَهُ وَطَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الَّذِينَ مَعَكَ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ يُقَدِّرُ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ "
2 times the word thulatha is mentioned first time it?s translated as 2/3 and second time as 1/3. Does anybody know why?



here are the other occurences from the corpusquran site:
Nominal
(1) Noun
(4:11:15) thuluthā two thirds فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَاءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ
(4:11:42) l-thuluthu (is) one third فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلِأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ
(4:12:73) l-thuluthi the third فَإِنْ كَانُوا أَكْثَرَ مِنْ ذَٰلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ
(4:176:30) l-thuluthāni two thirds فَإِنْ كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ
(73:20:8 ) thuluthayi two-thirds إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدْنَىٰ مِنْ ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ وَنِصْفَهُ وَثُلُثَهُ

(2) Time adverb
(73:20:11) wathuluthahu and a third of it إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدْنَىٰ مِنْ ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ وَنِصْفَهُ وَثُلُثَهُ

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 17, 2012, 03:36:01 PM
Quote
I don?t understand why ثُلُثَا is translated everywhere as 2/3.

It is a dual noun with Noon dropped for reason of being first-annexed noun of Possessive Phrase, Ma-Relative Pronoun is the Annexer.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 17, 2012, 04:20:17 PM
It is a dual noun with Noon dropped for reason of being first-annexed noun of Possessive Phrase, Ma-Relative Pronoun is the Annexer.

Salaam brother,

I am not sure if I understood correctly.

What is the difference then with: 4:176 "... فَإِنْ كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ   ..." looks to me almost the same.
and why is in 73:20 no Noen?
73:20 "...  إِنَّ رَبَّكَ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّكَ تَقُومُ أَدْنَىٰ مِنْ ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ وَنِصْفَهُ وَثُلُثَهُ وَطَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الَّذِينَ مَعَكَ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ يُقَدِّرُ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ "

Do you know any similar ayaat where this Noen is missing?

Salaam and thanks,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 18, 2012, 03:08:01 AM
ثُلُثَا مَا   This is Possessive Phrase, therefore following the rule the Noon-نِ of dual noun is dropped as is dropped the Noon of plural in such construction. This is same word الثُّلُثَانِ-two third. It is Nominative indicated by alif. When it is genitive you see it ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ since it is preceded by Preposition. يِ is the sign of genitive. Here too Noon of dual is dropped because of Possessive construct.

ثُلُثَهُ is singular in Possessive Phrase.

I hope it clarifies.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 18, 2012, 07:57:15 AM
Nothing gets excluded from inheritance. The word used is "Women". It has no singular, just plural with diminuiive "few women". It is nowhere used for female of any age since age starts from birth to death. It solely denotes women. A person leaving behind property could be one when his daughters are already women.  Moreover, as you pointed out, they are handed over inheritance only when they become women-a female having become mature to enter marriage bond. The opposite gender of her is Man not boy or child.

Peace Mazhar -- I?ll leave rijal and nisa un-translated and extrapolate their meaning from verses and keeping a child?s or orphans inheritance safe until they mature does not say inheritance is only for adults and warns those in their care not eat their wealth ? i.e. the shares were already assigned although not yet distributed.

Example: mother and sister (age 2)

4:176 الكلالة al-kalālati إن if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد waladun/child born وله and has أخت sister فلها so for her نصف half (no mention of nisa)

1 ? 1/2 sister (fixed) = 1/2 mother (variable) no son/brother

The above is an orphan case (fatherless child) comes with dire warning the shares belong to her.

4:6 وابتلوا and test اليتامى the orphans حتى until إذا when بلغوا reached النكاح the marriage فإن so if آنستم you perceive منهم from them رشدا rational فادفعوا so deliver إليهم to them أموالهم their wealth

4:10 إن indeed الذين the ones who يأكلون eat أموال wealth اليتامى the orphans ظلما injustice إنما surely يأكلون eat في in بطونهم their bellies نارا a fire وسيصلون and they will be burned سعيرا a blaze


ثُلُثَا مَا   This is Possessive Phrase, therefore following the rule the Noon-نِ of dual noun is dropped as is dropped the Noon of plural in such construction. This is same word الثُّلُثَانِ-two third. It is Nominative indicated by alif. When it is genitive you see it ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ since it is preceded by Preposition. يِ is the sign of genitive. Here too Noon of dual is dropped because of Possessive construct.

ثُلُثَهُ is singular in Possessive Phrase.

I hope it clarifies.

Peace Bender and thank you for the question and Mazhar for the clarification which to put in simple speech/practice ...

4:11 فإن so if كن are نساء nisā فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so for them ثلثا 2/3

4:176 فإن so if كانتا kānatā/they were (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3)

73:20 ثلثي third twice (1/3 x 2) الليل the night ونصفه and half of it (1/2 x 1) وثلثه and third of it (1/3 x 1)

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 18, 2012, 08:21:42 AM
ثُلُثَا مَا   This is Possessive Phrase, therefore following the rule the Noon-نِ of dual noun is dropped as is dropped the Noon of plural in such construction. This is same word الثُّلُثَانِ-two third. It is Nominative indicated by alif. When it is genitive you see it ثُلُثَيِ اللَّيْلِ since it is preceded by Preposition. يِ is the sign of genitive. Here too Noon of dual is dropped because of Possessive construct.

ثُلُثَهُ is singular in Possessive Phrase.

I hope it clarifies.

Salaam,

 :nope:

If I would give this sentence (wich is not Quran) to an arab scholar would he then know that I am talking here about 2/6 instead of 1/6?
"... فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَاءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ سُُدُسا مَا تَرَكَ ..."

Also do you have another ayaat for reference?

Salaam and thanks,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 18, 2012, 08:49:06 AM

Peace Bender and thank you for the question and Mazhar for the clarification which to put in simple speech/practice ...

4:11 فإن so if كن are نساء nisā فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so for them ثلثا 2/3

4:176 فإن so if كانتا kānatā/they were (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3)

73:20 ثلثي third twice (1/3 x 2) الليل the night ونصفه and half of it (1/2 x 1) وثلثه and third of it (1/3 x 1)

Salaam Noon,

Next thing what I found  :hmm
why only this part (thulathaa) is without AL in 4:11, thus undefined?
all the other parts have AL.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 18, 2012, 09:03:02 AM
Salaam,

 :nope:

If I would give this sentence (wich is not Quran) to an arab scholar would he then know that I am talking here about 2/6 instead of 1/6?
"... فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَاءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ سُُدُسا مَا تَرَكَ ..."

Also do you have another ayaat for reference?

Salaam and thanks,
Bender

It is okay to say it to me. Don't say it to a mathematician like Noon. Give it a second thought what you have said and laugh it out. Thanks.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 18, 2012, 09:08:19 AM
It is okay to say it to me. Don't say it to a mathematician like Noon. Give it a second thought what you have said and laugh it out. Thanks.

Salaam,

I know exactly what I said. And I believe you also know what my point is. We are not talking about the math.
So can you please tell me what you read there?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 18, 2012, 01:24:03 PM
Salaam Noon,

Next thing what I found  :hmm
why only this part (thulathaa) is without AL in 4:11, thus undefined?
all the other parts have AL.

Salaam Bender,

الثمن the eight
السدس the sixth
الربع the fourth
الثلث the third
النصف the half

No such word as the two third more like third parts; see history of fractions...

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/journal/lffract.pdf

It could be that since they are incapable of managing they do not inherit. What I was after was an example, that would disprove the theory. One or two will suffice.

Peace Wakas,

92:3 وما and Who خلق created الذكر the male والأنثى wal-unthā and the female

Example: husband, two sons ages 10, 21 and three daughters ages 2, 14, 19
4:11 للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:12 فإن so if كان kāna is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

Obviously husband gets 1/4 and children remainder regardless of age 2, 10, 14 etc.
1 - 1/4 husband (fixed) = 3/4 children (variable) 2:1 ratio male to female

What if: husband and three daughters ages 2, 14, 19 ? why cannot all inherit as before?
4:11 فإن so if كن are نساء nisāan فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
1 ? 2/3 (three daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 husband (variable) no son and there is child/born

What if husband and later the oldest son died: brother age 10 and three sisters ages 2, 14, 19
4:176 ... وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun رجالا rijalan ونساء wanisā فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

2:1 ratio male to female same as when they were under the children category.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 18, 2012, 02:32:08 PM
Salaam Bender,

الثمن the eight
السدس the sixth
الربع the fourth
الثلث the third
النصف the half

No such word as the two third more like third parts; see history of fractions...

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/journal/lffract.pdf

Salaam Noon,

The Quran has it's own rules.
"... وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَا إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ ۚ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ ..."

see also that 4:12 and 4:176 begin with NISF without AL, but the parts after that are with AL.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 18, 2012, 03:25:30 PM
Salaam Noon,

The Quran has it's own rules.
"... وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَا إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ ۚ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ ..."

see also that 4:12 and 4:176 begin with NISF without AL, but the parts after that are with AL.

Salaam,
Bender

Salaam Bender,

Yes we know there  is half or the half or third or the third or kalala or the kalala, etc.
What I'm relaying to you is that there is no such word as two third or the two third.

Have you read the article? http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/journal/lffract.pdf

See prior examples; it's third two or the third each or third parts which add to 2/3 we translate as such.


4:11 فإن so if كن are نساء nisā فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so for them ثلثا 2/3

4:176 فإن so if كانتا kānatā/they were (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3)

73:20 ثلثي third twice (1/3 x 2) الليل the night ونصفه and half of it (1/2 x 1) وثلثه and third of it (1/3 x 1)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 19, 2012, 02:17:49 AM
Salaam,

I know exactly what I said. And I believe you also know what my point is. We are not talking about the math.
So can you please tell me what you read there?

How naive. You did not give a second thought to realize your simplicity in having asked such question. You say 1/6 + 1/6= 2/6. Thereby you coined a dual word سُُدُسا  for it.

Qur'aan also deals with people when they are so simple. Note carefully how Qur'aan is teaching you simple mathematics alongwith Arabic:

 فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ  فَإِن كَانُواْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ

Again see your proposition
1/6 + 1/6= 2/6-------it is
1/3 one third.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 19, 2012, 08:31:04 AM
How naive. You did not give a second thought to realize your simplicity in having asked such question. You say 1/6 + 1/6= 2/6. Thereby you coined a dual word سُُدُسا  for it.

Qur'aan also deals with people when they are so simple. Note carefully how Qur'aan is teaching you simple mathematics alongwith Arabic:

 فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ  فَإِن كَانُواْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ

Again see your proposition
1/6 + 1/6= 2/6-------it is
1/3 one third.

At the risk of being called naive and simple:

Is this what the Arabic in the Koran says:

فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ

= 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 = 1/3?

Google translate says: Every one of them gets one-sixth
 :-[  :giveup:
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 19, 2012, 08:42:54 AM
Salaam Bender,

Yes we know there  is half or the half or third or the third or kalala or the kalala, etc.
What I'm relaying to you is that there is no such word as two third or the two third.

Have you read the article? http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/journal/lffract.pdf

See prior examples; it's third two or the third each or third parts which add to 2/3 we translate as such.

Salaam Noon,

I took a quick look at the article. But that was not my point.
InshaAllah I will study this a bit better and come back to you.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 19, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
How naive. You did not give a second thought to realize your simplicity in having asked such question. You say 1/6 + 1/6= 2/6. Thereby you coined a dual word سُُدُسا  for it.

Qur'aan also deals with people when they are so simple. Note carefully how Qur'aan is teaching you simple mathematics alongwith Arabic:

 فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ  فَإِن كَانُواْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ

Again see your proposition
1/6 + 1/6= 2/6-------it is
1/3 one third.

Salaam,

What you don't understand or refuse to understand is that I am not intrested in the math.
I took 6 because that was the first number I saw in 4:11

Let's try it again now with a prime, inshaAllah you will now focus on my question instead of the math.
"... فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَاءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ خُمُسَا  مَا تَرَكَ ..."
If an arab reads this, what does he read here:
1/5  or 2/5 or n/5 where 2<n<5 or does he read parts of 1/5 where parts is any number >1 thus it could also be 17 x 1/5

InshaAllah you will now focus on what I am asking instead of being the smart guy.
And I will appreciate it if you can give me a verse from The Quran where this concept is supported.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 19, 2012, 09:07:46 AM
At the risk of being called naive and simple:

Is this what the Arabic in the Koran says:

فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ

= 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 = 1/3?

Google translate says: Every one of them gets one-sixth
 :-[  :giveup:

Yes 1/6 and 1/6 of a quanity becomes collectively 1/3. In case the brother and sister each of whom gets one sixth are more than two the share will remain the same measuring 1/3 for all of them.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 19, 2012, 10:45:14 AM
Yes 1/6 and 1/6 of a quanity becomes collectively 1/3. In case the brother and sister each of whom gets one sixth are more than two the share will remain the same measuring 1/3 for all of them.

Am I that unclear? I am NOT talking about the veracity of mathematics. Every schoolboy knows that.

I asked:

"Is this what the Arabic in the Koran says"?

I asked this because you claimed that "Qur'aan is teaching you simple mathematics" and then said: "1/6 + 1/6= 2/6-------it is 1/3 one third" along with Arabic script.

Does the Koran really say: 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 = 1/3?
I can't find this in the Koran. When entering the sentence you quoted it does not mention that, so I was asking for clarification.

I do not understand how what you are saying and what I find in the Koran fit together.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 19, 2012, 12:32:25 PM
Am I that unclear? I am NOT talking about the veracity of mathematics. Every schoolboy knows that.

I asked:

"Is this what the Arabic in the Koran says"?

I asked this because you claimed that "Qur'aan is teaching you simple mathematics" and then said: "1/6 + 1/6= 2/6-------it is 1/3 one third" along with Arabic script.

Does the Koran really say: 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 = 1/3?
I can't find this in the Koran. When entering the sentence you quoted it does not mention that, so I was asking for clarification.

I do not understand how what you are saying and what I find in the Koran fit together.

Mathematics is represented by digits. And mathematics is verbally partrayed by words. When we do not write 2/6 in mathematics since it is divisible yielding 1/3 which is verbally described by a single word. This was also quoted in the part of Ayah

فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُواْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ

I just repeated the quote of another member who said 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 19, 2012, 01:23:23 PM
It might help if gone through entirely

Fractions
http://www.learnarabiconline.com/arabic-numbers.shtml (http://www.learnarabiconline.com/arabic-numbers.shtml)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 19, 2012, 02:24:57 PM
It might help if gone through entirely

No, this does not help at all.

How can explaining numbers and mathematics help when I am asking a question relating to words used in the Koran?

Do you also want to explain how a car wash works in time cycles or the sink rate of a 747 in m/sec? None of these have anything to do with my question. Is it possible to answer a straight question with a straight answer?

If I ask a question about a sentence and the representation, I am not asking about the origins of the representation.

You claimed that "1/6 + 1/6= 2/6-------it is 1/3 one third" along with Arabic script.
I don't care whether this was in reply to anyone.

The following expects and answer in the form yes/no:
Does the Koran really say: 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 = 1/3?

If you answer yes, I will ask: where, please show me.
and if you answer no, then I will ask: why do you bring it up then?

So, do you care to qualify and rephrase what you actually want to say?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 19, 2012, 02:42:46 PM
فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُواْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ

The One sixth is for each of those two, thereby if they are more than two, thereat they all are sharers in the one third.

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: StopS on July 19, 2012, 02:50:59 PM
فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُواْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاءُ فِي الثُّلُثِ

The One sixth is for each of those two, thereby if they are more than two, thereat they all are sharers in the one third.

Thank you. You have clarified it for me. This is what I understood. All I need to do now is irrefutably clarify when and under what conditions this applies.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 19, 2012, 03:00:06 PM
Thank you. You have clarified it for me. This is what I understood. All I need to do now is irrefutably clarify when and under what conditions this applies.

Yes, I clarified it for you. Perhaps I bothered you as I gathered from your earlier post. To tell you the truth when I quoted you I had taken it as Bender post, not yours. Thanks.

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 20, 2012, 06:20:31 AM
I just repeated the quote of another member who said 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6

Salaam,

I think you are referring to me.
I didn't say that, and even if I said it, is 1/6 + 1/6 not 2/6?

And for the record:
The part of the ayaat that you quoted that teaches 1/6 + 1/6 =1/3 for someone simple like me does not teach that.
It says if there are more then 2   then only 1/3 for all of them. Do you understand the difference.

If not take al look at 4:76
"...If a person passes away and has no children but has a sister, then she shall receive half of what he leaves behind. And he will inherit from her if she has no child. However, if he has two sisters, then they will receive two thirds of what he left behind;..."
is 1/2 + 1/2 = 2/3 :hmm

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 20, 2012, 08:10:12 AM
Quote
It says if there are more then 2   then only 1/3 for all of them. Do you understand the difference.

This is the part of statement which you have not quoted. First is two getting each 1/6th but if they are more that two they will share 1/3rd. Those two getting each 1/6th are sharing with all, 1/6+1/6=1/3. What could be more simplistic?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 20, 2012, 08:21:22 AM
This is the part of statement which you have not quoted. First is two getting each 1/6th but if they are more that two they will share 1/3rd. Those two getting each 1/6th are sharing with all, 1/6+1/6=1/3. What could be more simplistic?

Salaam,

If it's like what you said then it would not have been  الثُّلُثِ  but  thuluthu-huma or something like that (you are the grammar expert). Also please check the example I gave of 4:176
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 20, 2012, 08:24:56 AM
Quote
If not take al look at 4:76
"...If a person passes away and has no children but has a sister, then she shall receive half of what he leaves behind. And he will inherit from her if she has no child. However, if he has two sisters, then they will receive two thirds of what he left behind;..."
is 1/2 + 1/2 = 2/3


I do not see by what logic you are drawing this sort of inference. What is said therein is that in case there is one sister she will receive half, but if there are two sisters they both will obtain 2/3rd. Only Noon might make you understand about mathematics.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 20, 2012, 08:33:23 AM


I do not see by what logic you are drawing this sort of inference. What is said therein is that in case there is one sister she will receive half, but if there are two sisters they both will obtain 2/3rd. Only Noon might make you understand about mathematics.

Salaam,

InshaAllah one day you will understand  :pr
Try to read you own messages first. I just used the same logic as you did, to show you your wrong logic.
I am done with you, have a nice day.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 20, 2012, 12:25:23 PM
If not take al look at 4:76
"...If a person passes away and has no children but has a sister, then she shall receive half of what he leaves behind. And he will inherit from her if she has no child. However, if he has two sisters, then they will receive two thirds of what he left behind;..."
is 1/2 + 1/2 = 2/3 :hmm

Salaam Bender, it's not read like that i.e. two thirds (no such word) read as stated ...
4:12 فإن so/ELSE IF كانوا kānū they were أكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third
4:176 ..فإن so/ELSE IF كانتا kānatā/they were (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the third for each

2 sisters mother
1 ? (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) = 1/3 mother (variable, no son/brother)

Trying to figure out 4:11 and believe was read incorrectly and should be read like this?
4:11فإن so/ELSE IF كن kunna/are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so to them ثلثا third for ما what ترك left
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 20, 2012, 12:36:24 PM
Quote
4:176 ..فإن so/ELSE IF كانتا kānatā/they were (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the third for each

Sorry Noon, there is no such word in Ayah "for each". "thereby, two third is for them [them denoting two]"
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 20, 2012, 12:40:31 PM
Sorry Noon, there is no such word in Ayah "for each". "thereby, two third is for them [them denoting two]"

Mazhar I was thinking to both i.e. dual or 1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 20, 2012, 12:44:42 PM
Mazhar I was thinking to both i.e. dual or 1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3?

In descriptions having the force of law, no word is allowed to be added in the text for interpreting the intention of law maker. When it is mentioned "for each of the two" only then we can say 1/3+1/3. Here only one pronoun of third person dual referring back to two feminine is mentioned.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 20, 2012, 12:56:00 PM
Sorry Noon, I forgot to acknowledge your point regarding Waladun as singular son for reason of Kana. Yes, there it means only son because of masculine deficient verb and it being its Ism-Noun subject.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 20, 2012, 12:58:27 PM
Sorry Noon, I forgot to acknowledge your point regarding Waladun as singular son for reason of Kana. Yes, there it means only son because of masculine deficient verb and it being its Ism-Noun subject.

Thank you Mazhar, that was what makes all the calculations work and rather amazing logic.

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 20, 2012, 01:22:07 PM
Thank you Mazhar, that was what makes all the calculations work and rather amazing logic.

Peace

I see it from another angle also.

Daughter not Son is the central theme of Inheritance

لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الْأُنثَيَيْنِ

Resembling the share of  the two daughters is to be apportioned for the male child.

The Man-dominance notion engulfing the intellect quite often blurs the sight to even watch the words of the text. "Reading" signifies the process of identifying the characters and words and their relationships to understand the meanings in written text. This is the object of reading to reduce the spread text to a "focal-gathered spot" yielding "thought-perception" infolded therein. Arabic is the Mother of Languages and its words are mostly picturesque depicting that which needs to be defined in other languages. The word for reading a written text in Arabic are made from Root ق ر ء which signifies collecting a thing at one place-point, thus changing the spread position of a thing into a collective whole. It is for this reason that we need to understand Arabic first to enable ourselves to "read" its text.

The above sentence is an Inverted Nominal Sentence. It is always the Subject-topic that a speaker or text talks something about it. The last three words comprising a unit as Possessive Phrase + Possessive Phrase with first noun in nominative is the delayed Subject-مبتدأ مؤخر. The Prepositional Phrase [الجار والمجرور متعلقان بمحذوف خبر مقدم ] relates to elided Predicate vividly understandable by the Subject, preposition and the nature of discourse.

It is thus self evident that the daughters and not the son is the centre around which the discourse of inheritance revolves. A general principle is laid down that resembling the share accruing to the two daughters shall be apportioned for a male progeny.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Wakas on July 20, 2012, 03:10:44 PM
peace Nun,

Thanks for the example, but can you clarify what it proves? I'm not sure I follow.

Thanks.


Peace Wakas,

92:3 وما and Who خلق created الذكر the male والأنثى wal-unthā and the female

Example: husband, two sons ages 10, 21 and three daughters ages 2, 14, 19
4:11 للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:12 فإن so if كان kāna is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

Obviously husband gets 1/4 and children remainder regardless of age 2, 10, 14 etc.
1 - 1/4 husband (fixed) = 3/4 children (variable) 2:1 ratio male to female

What if: husband and three daughters ages 2, 14, 19 ? why cannot all inherit as before?
4:11 فإن so if كن are نساء nisāan فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
1 ? 2/3 (three daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 husband (variable) no son and there is child/born

What if husband and later the oldest son died: brother age 10 and three sisters ages 2, 14, 19
4:176 ... وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun رجالا rijalan ونساء wanisā فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

2:1 ratio male to female same as when they were under the children category.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Bender on July 20, 2012, 03:40:52 PM
Salaam Bender, it's not read like that i.e. two thirds (no such word) read as stated ...
4:12 فإن so/ELSE IF كانوا kānū they were أكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third
4:176 ..فإن so/ELSE IF كانتا kānatā/they were (feminine dual) اثنتين two فلهما so to them الثلثان the third for each

2 sisters mother
1 ? (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) = 1/3 mother (variable, no son/brother)

Trying to figure out 4:11 and believe was read incorrectly and should be read like this?
4:11فإن so/ELSE IF كن kunna/are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن so to them ثلثا third for ما what ترك left

Salaam Noon,

Thank you, at the moment I am only trying to understand the words and design used in those verses in relation to other verses in The Quran.
The math is the simpliest part, it is only difficult when we don't understand the words and the usage of those words.
InshaAllah I will be back to you when I complete my study (it can take some time).

ps. notice that in some sentences it says "MAA Taraka" and some not and some have "MIMAA Taraka" have to figure this out. (to what is this ma-taraka and mimaa-tarakaa reffering to? To the whole what is left OR what is left after some get their share?)
pps. I now also believe that thulathaa is 2/3 or maybe (1/3 + 1/3). A brother showed me 20:47 where RASULAA is indeed used for 2 people.

Salaam,
Bender
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 21, 2012, 08:57:06 PM
peace Nun,

Thanks for the example, but can you clarify what it proves? I'm not sure I follow.

Thanks.

Peace Wakas, try these examples and restrict nisa to only adult women...

1 son age 10; wife
1 ? 1/8 wife (fixed 4:12) = 7/8 son (variable/unstated)
1 son age 10; wife; 3 daughters ages 2, 14, 19
1 ? 1/8 wife (fixed 4:12) = 7/8 children (variable 4:11) 2:1 ratio male to female

1 brother age 10; mother
1 ? 1/6 mother (fixed 4:11) = 5/6 brother (variable)
1 sister age 2; mother
1 ? 1/2 sister (fixed 4:176) = 1/2 mother (variable) no son/brother

Why not all inherit as with only son/s or mixed or sibling/s above?
3 daughters ages 2, 14, 19; wife -- need 4:11 cannot restrict based on age/nisa.
1 ? 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 wife

Above are orphan cases and we know their shares are allocated kept safe until maturity (4:6).

Thus need to use context in translating ri-j-ā-l-a and ni-s-ā-a not always auto insert  "men and women?  ?

4:176 ... وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة a-kh-wa-t brothers/siblings (at least one male present any age) رجالا ri-j-ā-l-a ونساء wa-ni-s-ā-a فللذكر so to the masculine/male gender مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)


ps. notice that in some sentences it says "MAA Taraka" and some not and some have "MIMAA Taraka" have to figure this out. (to what is this ma-taraka and mimaa-tarakaa reffering to? To the whole what is left OR what is left after some get their share?)
pps. I now also believe that thulathaa is 2/3 or maybe (1/3 + 1/3). A brother showed me 20:47 where RASULAA is indeed used for 2 people.

Salaam Bender, use context carefully read every word and best avoid translations do your own.

4:11 ...فلهن fa-la-hu-n so to them ثلثا third for ما m-a not/what/who (use context) ترك ta-ra-ka left
4:11 ... السدس the sixth مما mim-m-ā of/from what ترك ta-ra-ka left

4:12 نصف half ما m-ā what ترك ta-ra-ka left أزواجكم spouses yours
4:12 الربع the fourth مما mi-m-ā of what تركن ta-ra-k-na they left

4:12 الربع the fourth مما mi-m-ā of what تركتم ta-ra-k-tu-m you left
4:12 الثمن the eight مما mim-m-ā of what تركتم ta-ra-k-tu-m you left

4:176 وله and to person أخت sister فلها so to her نصف half ما m-a what ترك ta-ra-ka left
4:176 فإن so if كانتا were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما fa-la-hu-m-ā (dual pronoun) so to them الثلثان the third for (dual noun; 1/3 + 1/3) مما mim-m-ā of what ترك ta-ra-ka left
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 22, 2012, 01:17:48 PM
Quote
Quote from: mirjamnur on July 06, 2012, 02:58:42 AM
when she leaves husband and 2 daughters and 1 son
husband 1/4
parents 1/6
daughters and son 7/12 =28/48
daugther 1= 7/48
daughter 2=7/48
son 14/48
Quote
4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son
4:12 فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

1/4 or 3/12 husband
1/3 or 4/12 parents = 1/6 mother + 1/6 father
......... 5/12 children = 5/24 son + 5/24 daughters (5/48 x 2 daughters); if children mixed 2:1 ratio male to female

Noon
Are the priorities or sequence not changed in this case?

It begins يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children.

The share allocated to أولاد [plural that includes dauthers and sons-even one daughter and one son who will equal to three daughters by gender equation settled] is not alterable.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 22, 2012, 11:41:52 PM
Noon
Are the priorities or sequence not changed in this case?

It begins يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children.

The share allocated to أولاد [plural that includes dauthers and sons-even one daughter and one son who will equal to three daughters by gender equation settled] is not alterable.


Peace Mazhar,

When ratio is given (2:1 male to female) it?s not solvable unless amount is first known.
Unless they are alone i.e. they get the whole or 1, priority is allocate fixed shares first. 

4:11 للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:176 فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

1 daughter, 1 son, father
1 ? 1/6 father (fixed) = 5/6 children 2:1 ratio (10/18 son + 5/18 daughter)

This is one proof father cannot inherit with siblings; kalalah is fatherless:

1 sister, 1 brother, father (unsolvable)
1 = father (variable) + siblings 2:1 ratio male to female
1 = y + 2x + x
1 = y + 3x (no solution without negative numbers (-2=y, 1=x))

Some suggest kalalah from Iklil ?crown that surrounds head? ? no head of household?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 04:19:49 AM
Quote
1 daughter, 1 son, father
1 ? 1/6 father (fixed) = 5/6 children 2:1 ratio (10/18 son + 5/18 daughter)


Noon, please do consider this:

1 daughter, 1 son will get 2/3, their share cannot be reduced or left to be settled by remainder.

It is not meaningless that the like of share of two daugthers be apportioned for a male. The division is based beginning with daughters not a son or sons. Two third will be share of progenies. Rest is to be divided to the secondary relatives after progenies which is either solely daughters or includes a daughter. This cannot be compromised otherwise everything else would be against Qur'aan and priorities settled by Allah the Exalted.

Please note that when Progeny comprises only of daughters, they are prioritized about the share in the inheritance and other relatives are at secondary place to receive what is left over.
But in the case of single son, it is not the son who is prioritized but other near-ones. The son will get the left over.

When there is solitary son, it is he who is to be given the remainder after the share of others. Please make calculations in that way also. Perhaps you made it 7/12 and 5/12.  When they have to receive the remainder left afther 2/3 going to progenies, their percentages will proportionately be reduced.
Please note that equivalence between two females and male need NOT be decimal correct. "Mislo" does not mean hundred percent alike, it also shows that things are to taken in a very broader sense. Therefore, we need not act like Diophantus, Hero of Alexandria, or al-Khw?rizm? to understand the injunctions given in the Qur'aan about division and distribution of inheritance.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 07:44:19 AM

Noon, please do consider this:

1 daughter, 1 son will get 2/3, their share cannot be reduced or left to be settled by remainder.

Mazhar,

Please distribute according to Qur'an and which part of verse 4:11 is being used?

1 daughter 1 son = ?
3 daughters 1 son = ?

parents 1/3 fixed (1/6 each 4:11)
husband 1/4 fixed 4:12

Total = 7/12 (parents + husband) + remainder 5/12 = 1

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 09:05:59 AM
Quote
parents 1/3 fixed (1/6 each 4:11)
husband 1/4 fixed 4:12

Total = 7/12 (parents + husband) + remainder 5/12 = 1

Yes this is the case when the deceased has only one son. Here the son is not prioritized but parents. Similarly in 4:12 the share for husband/wife is prioritized when there is only one son.

Man died: 1/6 + 1/6 +1/8=11/24-1=13/24 for son
Woman died: 1/6+1/6+1/4=7/12-1=5/12 for son.

Since equation of gender is share of two daughters shall be given to one son, whenever there is a daughter the distribution will be started with daughter not parents. Since the share of two or more daughters is two third, this will not be disturbed and shall be the first to be set aside for the entire progeny which may comprise daugther son, daughters son, daughter sons. Initially it is told that the injunction is for the progenies not parents or husband/wife. They are secondary beneficiaries.
All situations are conditional with apodosis clauses.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 09:39:57 AM
Yes this is the case when the deceased has only one son. Here the son is not prioritized but parents. Similarly in 4:12 the share for husband/wife is prioritized when there is only one son.

Man died: 1/6 + 1/6 +1/8=11/24-1=13/24 for son
Woman died: 1/6+1/6+1/4=7/12-1=5/12 for son.

This leaves nothing for daughters and we know they inherit?

Now try example: 3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband?

whenever there is a daughter the distribution will be started with daughter not parents.

Obviously without son/s only daughter/s: 1 - daughter/s = parent/s and/or spouse (variable)

It can never be fixed amounts on all entities which lead to contradiction -- shortfall/surplus.

This whole priority business one has to start first with the known then allocated remainder to unknown.

1 son, mother 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/known) = 5/6 son (variable/unknown)
1 son, husband 1 - 1/4 husband (fixed/known) = 3/4 son (variable/unknown)
1 son, 1 daughter, mother, father, husband 1 - 1/6 m - 1/6 f - 1/4 h = 5/12 children (variable/unknown) 2:1 ratio male to female

1 daughter, mother 1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/known) = 1/2 mother (variable/unknown)
1 daughter, wife 1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/known) = 1/2 wife (variable/unknown)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 10:02:41 AM
Quote
Yes this is the case when the deceased has only one son. Here the son is not prioritized but parents. Similarly in 4:12 the share for husband/wife is prioritized when there is only one son.

Man died: 1/6 + 1/6 +1/8=11/24-1=13/24 for son
Woman died: 1/6+1/6+1/4=7/12-1=5/12 for son.
Quote
This leaves nothing for daughters and we know they inherit?

Yes, because there is no daugter in this situation. The inheritance divisions is described by ground realities not hypothetical propositions.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 10:16:43 AM
Yes, because there is no daugter in this situation. The inheritance divisions is described by ground realities not hypothetical propositions.

OK rewind, I want to understand; please distribute:

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband?
3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 10:26:49 AM
OK rewind, I want to understand; please distribute:

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband?
3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband?

Perhaps now I have been able to convey what I think.

3 dauthers + 1 son=2/3 leaving behind 1/3 for other survivors father, mother, husband/wife as thecase maybe. Two third has five shares since one son will get like share of two daughters. Simplest form of distribution.

3 D + 2 sons =same 2/3 ....................of 2/3 are seven shares 3 + 2 + 2=7 shares.

The remaining is for living parents and husband/wife. It can be sub divided by restricting to percentages set in case of solitary son.  Pl use your mathematical knowledge to get those.


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 10:58:58 AM
Perhaps now I have been able to convey what I think.

3 dauthers + 1 son=2/3 leaving behind 1/3 for other survivors father, mother, husband/wife as thecase maybe. Two third has five shares since one son will get like share of two daughters. Simplest form of distribution.

3 D + 2 sons =same 2/3 ....................of 2/3 are seven shares 3 + 2 + 2=7 shares.

The remaining is for living parents and husband/wife. It can be sub divided by restricting to percentages set in case of solitary son.  Pl use your mathematical knowledge to get those.

Mazhar -- Qur'an specifically states 1/6 each parent (1/3) and 1/4 to husband?

4:11 ... ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth
4:12... فإن so if كان kāna is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

Should be thus:

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children 2:1 ratio male to female

3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children 2:1 ratio male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 11:16:58 AM
Quote
Mazhar -- Qur'an specifically states 1/6 each parent (1/3) and 1/4 to husband?


Yes, but only in case the prescribed condition is met or exists. It becomes null and void if condition does not exist. It is simple law that any thing subject to a certain thing will take effect only when firstly condition is met.

In case-subject to the condition--if the deceased has solitary son in his progeny----
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 11:31:19 AM

Yes, but only in case the prescribed condition is met or exists. It becomes null and void if condition does not exist. It is simple law that any thing subject to a certain thing will take effect only when firstly condition is met.

In case-subject to the condition--if the deceased has solitary son in his progeny----

Yes the condition is "IF son" which is true regardless 1 son or 10 sons! Not about solitary.

Ask anyone who has 1 son or 10 sons simple question -- do you have male child Yes or No?

If you give all mixed children 2/3 -- how to distribute the 1/3 to parents and husband?

Likewise with solitary son condition try to distribute:

10 sons, husband?
10 sons, parents?
10 sons, parents, husband?

With that logic all above are undefined; so what to do -- distribute evenly?

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 01:25:30 PM
Quote
Yes the condition is "IF son" which is true regardless 1 son or 10 sons! Not about solitary.

In Arabic no such thing exists that one son can be considered as ten sons also. Wherever there is more than one it is specified. Once the equation is given two daughters or more, and two daughter share is to be given to a son, that takes care of entire progency and need not be repeated for two sone or more sons.

In case of one daughter the rule is specifically given, she gets half. Similarly rule in case of solitary son is given who  gets remainder which is also slightly above the half of inheritance. One can calculate the proportion of other relatives from 1/3 left by the progenies by applying the formula given for one son instead of making them equal. If 5/12 goes to solitary son the others get 7/12. In case of a single daughter getting 6/12 you can calculate what will be proportioned reduction in individual shares which was once 7/12 collectively, if it is not be equally distributed amongst them.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 03:13:08 PM
In Arabic no such thing exists that one son can be considered as ten sons also. Wherever there is more than one it is specified.

It's basic logic in any language...
IF is to person male child, YES or NO?
IF is to person child/born, YES or NO?

Once the equation is given two daughters or more, and two daughter share is to be given to a son, that takes care of entire progency and need not be repeated for two sone or more sons.

In case of one daughter the rule is specifically given, she gets half. Similarly rule in case of solitary son is given who  gets remainder which is also slightly above the half of inheritance. One can calculate the proportion of other relatives from 1/3 left by the progenies by applying the formula given for one son instead of making them equal. If 5/12 goes to solitary son the others get 7/12. In case of a single daughter getting 6/12 you can calculate what will be proportioned reduction in individual shares which was once 7/12 collectively, if it is not be equally distributed amongst them.

What do you mean "one can calculate the proportion of other relatives from 1/3 left"?

It is clearly stated parents get 1/3 (1/6 each), husband gets 1/4 -- where you get 1/3?

Perhaps think, work all combinations instead of adding things which don't make sense!

son/s, daughter/s: distribute 2:1 ratio male to female

mother/father, son/s: 1/6 5/6
mother/father, 1 daughter : 1/2 1/2 no son, mother/father variable
mother/father, 2 daughters: 1/3 2/3 (2 daughters variable) all share equally
mother/father, 3 daughters: 1/3 2/3

mother, father : 1/3 2/3
mother, brother/s: 1/6 5/6

mother/father, husband: 1/2 1/2
mother/father, wife  : 3/4 1/4

father, sibling/s : 1 0 not kalala has father
husband/wife, sibling/s: 1 0 not kalala has spouse

husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/2 1/2 not childless; no son; husband/wife variable
husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/3 2/3
husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/3 2/3

husband, son/s: 1/4 3/4

mother, father, husband: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, father,    wife : 3/8 3/8 1/4

mother, father, 1 daughter : 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, father, 2 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, father, 3 daughters: 1/6 1/6 2/3

mother, father, son/s: 1/6 1/6 2/3

mother, husband/wife, 1 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
mother, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/6 1/6 2/3

mother, husband, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12
mother, wife,    son/s : 1/6 1/8 17/24

father, husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/4 1/4 1/2
father, husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/4 1/4 1/2
father, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/6 1/6 2/3

father, husband, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12
father, wife,    son/s : 1/6 1/8 17/24

father, daughter/s,  son/s : 1/6 5/6 children 2:1 ratio
husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/4 3/4 children 2:1 ratio

mother, father, husband/wife, 1 daughter : 1/6 1/6 1/6 1/2
mother, father, husband/wife, 2 daughters: 1/5 1/5 1/5 2/5
mother, father, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/9 1/9 1/9 2/3
 
mother, father, husband, son/s: 1/6 1/6 1/4 5/12
mother, father, wife,    son/s : 1/6 1/6 1/8 13/24

mother, husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12  children 2:1 ratio
mother, wife, daughter/s,    son/s : 1/6 1/8 17/24 children 2:1 ratio

father, husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/4 7/12  children 2:1 ratio
father, wife, daughter/s,    son/s: 1/6 1/8 17/24 children 2:1 ratio

mother, father, husband, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/6 1/4 5/12  children 2:1 ratio
mother, father, wife, daughter/s,    son/s: 1/6 1/6 1/8 13/24 children 2:1 ratio

mother, father, daughter/s, son/s: 1/6 1/6 2/3 children 2:1 ratio


4:11 kalala fatherless spouseless no son (sibling/s variable)
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s : 1/4 1/2 1/4
mother, 1 daughter, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, 1 daughter, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equally

mother, 2 daughters, sister/s: 1/4 1/2, 1/4 each 1/4 1/4
mother, 2 daughters, brother/s: 1/6 5/6 daughters siblings share equally
mother, 2 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 5/6 daughters siblings share equally

mother, 3 daughters, sister/s : 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, 3 daughters, brother/s: 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, 3 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 2/3 1/3 siblings share equally

1 daughter, sister/s : 1/2 1/2
1 daughter, brother/s: 1/2 1/2
1 daughter, sister/s, brother/s: 1/2 1/2 siblings share equally
 
2 daughters, sister/s : daughters siblings share equally
2 daughters, brother/s: daughters siblings share equally
2 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: daughters siblings share equally

3 daughters, sister/s : 2/3, 2/9 each 1/3
3 daughters, brother/s: 2/3, 2/9 each 1/3
3 daughters, sister/s, brother/s: 2/3 1/3 siblings share equally


4:12 kalala fatherless spouseless has son (sibling/s fixed 1/6 or 1/3)
son/s, sister : 5/6 1/6
son/s, brother: 5/6 1/6
son/s, sisters: 5/6 1/3
son/s, brothers:5/6 1/3
son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 2/3 1/3 siblings share equally

daughter/s, son/s, sister : 5/6 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
daughter/s, son/s, brother: 5/6 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
daughter/s, son/s, sisters: 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
daughter/s, son/s, brothers:2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
daughter/s, son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/3 siblings share equally

mother, son/s, sister : 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, son/s, brother: 1/6 2/3 1/6
mother, son/s, sisters: 1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, son/s, brothers:1/6 1/2 1/3
mother, son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 1/3 siblings share equally

mother, daughter/s, son/s, sister : 1/6 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
mother, daughter/s, son/s, brother: 1/6 2/3 children 2:1 ratio 1/6
mother, daughter/s, son/s, sisters: 1/6 1/2 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
mother, daughter/s, son/s, brothers:1/6 1/2 children 2:1 ratio 1/3
mother, daughter/s, son/s, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 1/2 children 2:1 ratio 1/3 siblings share equally


4:176 kalala fatherless spouseless no child/born
sister/s, brother/s: 2:1 ratio male to female

mother, sister/s, brother/s: 1/6 5/6 siblings 2:1 ratio

mother, 1 sister : 1/2 1/2
mother, 2 sisters: 1/3 2/3
mother, 3 sisters: 1/4 3/4 unstated/variable distribute equally
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 03:20:18 PM
Quote
It's basic logic in any language...
IF is male child, YES or NO?
IF is child/born, YES or NO?

I corrected myself because of you when you drew attention to masculine verb Kana that waladun meands a son not a child.

Waladun is masculine, its broken plural is grammatically feminine.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 03:23:23 PM
Quote
It is clearly stated parents get 1/3 (1/6 each), husband gets 1/4 -- where you get 1/3?

Yes only when the deceased had a son. Not otherwise. The situation is altogether different when he left dauther or daughters.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 03:38:52 PM
Yes only when the deceased had a son. Not otherwise. The situation is altogether different when he left dauther or daughters.

Mazhar -- the cases were below; once again please distribute according to Qur'an?

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children 2:1 ratio male to female

3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children 2:1 ratio male to female

3 daughters, 1 son
1 = children 2:1 ratio male to female

3 daughters, 2 sons
1 = children 2:1 ratio male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 04:32:38 PM
Quote
Mazhar -- the cases were below; once again please distribute according to Qur'an?

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children 2:1 ratio male to female


Mother and father you have prioritized. It means that the inheritance instructions are with regard to parent.

But in Qur'aan the discourse starts:

يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ

أَوْلاَدِ means all daugthers, means all sons, means combination of daugthers and sons. Subject of discourse is progenies not father and mother. They are residue beneficaries in case of progenies-dual or plural. But are prioritized in case of a son or in the absence of a son.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 04:38:45 PM


Mother and father you have prioritized. It means that the inheritance instructions are with regard to parent.

But in Qur'aan the discourse starts:

يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ

أَوْلاَدِ means all daugthers, means all sons, means combination of daugthers and sons. Subject of discourse is progenies not father and mother. They are residue beneficaries in case of progenies-dual or plural. But are prioritized in case of a son or in the absence of a son.

Will you please distribute according to Qur'an and cite which part of which verse?

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband

3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband

3 daughters, 1 son

3 daughters, 2 sons

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 04:53:42 PM
Will you please distribute according to Qur'an and cite which part of which verse?

3 daughters, 1 son, parents, husband

3 daughters, 2 sons, parents, husband

3 daughters, 1 son

3 daughters, 2 sons

3 daughters, 1 son-2/3 in 4:11 even if son was not there three daughters will get 2/3 and he gets share equal to two sisters. Parents, husband get the residue.

3 daughters, 2 son= 2/3 of inheritance. Residue for remaining living mentioned as who could be heirs.

Any number of daughters 2,3,4 and any no of son 1,2,3,4----=2/3 as per 4:11
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 05:04:25 PM
3 daughters, 1 son-2/3 in 4:11 even if son was not there three daughters will get 2/3 and he gets share equal to two sisters. Parents, husband get the residue.

3 daughters, 2 son= 2/3 of inheritance. Residue for remaining living mentioned as who could be heirs.

Then go ahead and distribute the 1/3 residue to parents and husband?

Any number of daughters 2,3,4 and any no of son 1,2,3,4----=2/3 as per 4:11

The remaining 1/3 goes to whom exactly?

I also see you are translating 4:11 فوق above/over اثنتين two = 2 ?

Now use priority and distribute: 1 sister, mother?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 23, 2012, 05:33:01 PM
Then go ahead and distribute the 1/3 residue to parents and husband?

The remaining 1/3 goes to whom exactly?

I also see you are translating 4:11 فوق above/over اثنتين two = 2 ?

Now use priority and distribute: 1 sister, mother?

This is also your quote

This whole priority business one has to start first with the known then allocated remainder to unknown.

Quote
1 son, mother 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/known) = 5/6 son (variable/unknown)
1 son, husband 1 - 1/4 husband (fixed/known) = 3/4 son (variable/unknown)
1 son, 1 daughter, mother, father, husband 1 - 1/6 m - 1/6 f - 1/4 h = 5/12 [where you find this word childre] children (variable/unknown) 2:1 ratio male to female [where is 1/2 for daughter when it is said that if the feminine were one she will get 1/2---it is also specified one]

1 daughter, mother 1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/known) = 1/2 mother (variable/unknown)
1 daughter, wife 1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/known) = 1/2 wife (variable/unknown)

The only difference what I am saying is that the moment there is daughter in the progenies we will revert back to the first command. Share of progenies will always be 2/3rd notwithstanding how many or how few are the remaining living ones.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 23, 2012, 05:53:31 PM
The only difference what I am saying is that the moment there is daughter in the progenies we will revert back to the first command. Share of progenies will always be 2/3rd notwithstanding how many or how few are the remaining living ones.

Therefore my question if always: 3 daughters, 1 son = 2/3, who gets the remaining 1/3?

Likewise case: 1 daughter, 1 son

Who gets the 1/2 exactly; daughter and son or when she is obviously alone?

4:11 وإن and if كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so to her النصف the half


Want to try and apply that to siblings as well since it is in reverse?

4:176 ...  فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 04:44:54 AM
Sorry Noon,

Your system is self contradictory. Once you say speicifically assigned and in other case you start where you like variable/unknown, and using at discretion son or child/children for the same word. Words of Qur'aan need not be manipulated at one's choice.

Pl first resolve this

Quote

1 son, mother 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/known) = 5/6 son (variable/unknown)
1 son, husband 1 - 1/4 husband (fixed/known) = 3/4 son (variable/unknown)
1 son, 1 daughter, mother, father, husband 1 - 1/6 m - 1/6 f - 1/4 h = 5/12 [where you find this word childre] children (variable/unknown) 2:1 ratio male to female [where is 1/2 for daughter when it is said that if the feminine were one she will get 1/2---it is also specified one]

1 daughter, mother 1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/known) = 1/2 mother (variable/unknown)
1 daughter, wife 1 - 1/2 daughter (fixed/known) = 1/2 wife (variable/unknown)

Or resolve this where all are assigned specific share:

2 daughters, one father, one mother, one wife, one son.

The only problem in your system is that you are not accepting the Conditions placed by Allah the Exalted, but are reading the text word by word without assigning the role to them. Once a conditions is there, only in that case the apodosis clause is applicable otherwise it has no existence in the book of law and not to be considered.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 24, 2012, 09:54:04 AM
Sorry Noon,

Your system is self contradictory. Once you say speicifically assigned and in other case you start where you like variable/unknown, and using at discretion son or child/children for the same word. Words of Qur'aan need not be manipulated at one's choice.

Pl first resolve this

Or resolve this where all are assigned specific share:

2 daughters, one father, one mother, one wife, one son.

The only problem in your system is that you are not accepting the Conditions placed by Allah the Exalted, but are reading the text word by word without assigning the role to them. Once a conditions is there, only in that case the apodosis clause is applicable otherwise it has no existence in the book of law and not to be considered.

2 daughters, son, father, mother, wife -- simply follow the instructions...

Children any mixed combination it's always 2:1 male to female
4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Parents if is to person son (i.e. if son present) 1/6 each
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son

Wife if is to deceased son (i.e. if son present) 1/8
4:12... فإن so if كان kāna is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so to them الثمن the eight

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/8 wife = 13/24 children 2:1 ratio male to female (26/72 son, 13/72 to each of 2 daughters)


Now your turn -- please solve using Qur'an?

1 son, mother, father (here we agree)
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father = 2/3 son

2 sons, mother, father (Qur'an says condition IF to person son = TRUE)
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father = 2/3 sons, 1/3 each

2 sons, mother, father (You say condition IF to person son = FALSE thus all variable/undefined?)

1 daughter, 2 sons, mother, father (You say condition IF to person son = FALSE and "revolves around females")

1 daughter, 10 sons  (You say it revolves around females and give 1 daughter how much exactly?)
4:11 ... وإن and if كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half
1 - 1/2 daughter = 1/2 sons (1/20 each son)

Mazhar, if you disagree or you have another view then please solve each case above?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 10:54:57 AM
Quote
2 daughters, son, father, mother, wife -- simply follow the instructions...

Children any mixed combination it's always 2:1 male to female
4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Parents if is to person son (i.e. if son present) 1/6 each
4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son

Wife if is to deceased son (i.e. if son present) 1/8
4:12... فإن so if كان kāna is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so to them الثمن the eight

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/8 wife = 13/24 children 2:1 ratio male to female (26/72 son, 13/72 to each of 2 daughters)

But this is not what Qur'aan says.

One important and the foremost instruction for which all is being instructed, i.e. progenies, you skip it and thus make the progenies secondary in the scheme of things.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)-----agter this is the main and primary order:

You skip this which is the ground reality in this case:

فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ  

Particularly note the red, it does not suggest "out/remaining of" but straight 2/3 of that which he the deceased has left.

First meet this then proceed further for left over 1/3.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 24, 2012, 12:59:52 PM
But this is not what Qur'aan says.

One important and the foremost instruction for which all is being instructed, i.e. progenies, you skip it and thus make the progenies secondary in the scheme of things.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)-----agter this is the main and primary order:

You skip this which is the ground reality in this case:

فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ  

Particularly note the red, it does not suggest "out/remaining of" but straight 2/3 of that which he the deceased has left.

First meet this then proceed further for left over 1/3.

I skipped nothing; it is you who skips and fails to apply what you suggest not solving simple cases.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children
mixed children -- للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
daughters > 2 -- فإن so/ELSE IF كن kunna/are (feminine plural) نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two (feminine)
1 daughter --   وإن AND IF كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half

Why you include girls with boys when it clearly says...
فإن so/ELSE IF كن kunna/are (feminine plural) نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two (feminine)?

Why you include girl with boys when it clearly says...
 وإن AND IF كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half?

Now do you want to solve these simple distributions according to Qur'an or not?

2 sons, mother, father
2 sons, 1 daughter, mother, father
10 sons, 1 daughter 

There can only be one non-contradictory solution/reading -- that is Qur'an!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 01:45:57 PM
Quote
Now do you want to solve these simple distributions according to Qur'an or not?

2 sons, mother, father
2 sons, 1 daughter, mother, father
10 sons, 1 daughter 

There can only be one non-contradictory solution/reading -- that is Qur'an!

Two third to progenies since they are more than two daughters in equation of Aulad which is a plural feminine noun to include combination of progenies and to show plurality. Other situations are with regard to duality and singularity. The left over goes to others. If the first pronouncement is not to be given any weight thereby one thinks it is redundant while nothing is redundant.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 24, 2012, 01:56:58 PM
Two third to progenies since they are more than two daughters in equation of Aulad which is a plural feminine noun to include combination of progenies and to show plurality. Other situations are with regard to duality and singularity. The left over goes to others. If the first pronouncement is not to be given any weight thereby one thinks it is redundant while nothing is redundant.

Excuse me are we solving the right examples?

2 sons, mother, father
2 sons = ?
mother = ?
father = ?


2 sons, 1 daughter, mother, father
2 sons = ?
1 daughter = ?
mother = ?
father = ?

10 sons, 1 daughter
10 sons = ?
1 daughter = ?

Please state which words of what verse that you are using, thank you.

This is serious not like we can agree to disagree and walk off the job; people are waiting for their shares and we still have siblings to also distribute accordingly.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 02:32:39 PM
The moment the progeny exceeds one dauhter or one son they fall in the first category---two third is theirs, otherrwise there was no point in determining individual share of a daughter, and then remainder going to others if son is the only progeny.
Pl see the numericals for daughters, it starts 3 or more than three--Kunna already contained plural feminine pronoun as its Noun, its predicate is again plural feminine, and then is over and above two feminine, and lastly is one feminine. Qur'aan is also indicating and correcting stupid concept of people that two women equal a man, or one son is equal to two daughters.   

And see almost the similarity in treatment regarding a daughter and a son. Single Daughter gets, if I use your way of mentioning, 6/12 and son gets the left over 5/12.

What help I was seeking was regarding reproportioning the left over 6/12, when there is only daughter, amongst father, mother, and wife accordingly without disturbing what equation they have amongst them in casr of a single son.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 24, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
What help I was seeking was regarding reproportioning the left over 6/12, when there is only daughter, amongst father, mother, and wife accordingly without disturbing what equation they have amongst them in casr of a single son.

OK to solve any problem we simplify or break it down to most basic elements/cases.

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son

1 son, mother (this we agree on)
1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/stated) = 5/6 son (variable/dependent)

2 sons, mother ?

Likewise with siblings...

4:11  فإن so if كان kāna/is (masculine singular)  له to person إخوة ikh'wat/brother فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth

1 brother, mother
1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/stated) = 5/6 brother (variable/unstated)

2 brothers, mother ?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 24, 2012, 05:06:09 PM
2/3, 1/3
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 24, 2012, 09:26:56 PM
2/3, 1/3

2 sons, mother ?
2 brothers, mother ?

Your answer 2/3, 1/3 ?

Continue...

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان kāna/is (masculine singular) له to person ولد walad/son
4:12 فإن so if كان kāna is (masculine singular) لهن to them ولد walad/son فلكم so to you الربع the fourth
4:12  فإن so if كان kāna is (masculine singular) لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so to them الثمن the eight

Is your solution to ignore verses above and evenly distribute all these cases?

2 sons, mother ?
2 sons, father ?
2 sons, wife ?
2 sons, husband ?

2 sons, mother, father ?

2 sons, father, wife ?
2 sons, mother, wife ?
2 sons, father, husband ?
2 sons, mother, husband ?

2 sons, mother, father, wife ?
2 sons, mother, father, husband ?

Likewise with siblings...

4:11  فإن so if كان kāna/is (masculine singular)  له to person إخوة ikh'wat/brother فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth
4:176  وإن and if كانوا kānū/they were إخوة ikh'watun/siblings رجالا rijalan ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

2 brothers, 3 sisters, mother ?

The above forces you to follow the directive in 4:176 ratio 2:1 male to female.
Likewise forces you to follow 4:11 1/6 to mother IF brother ELSE not solvable.

Mathematical proof:
1 = mother (if variable) + siblings mixed 2:1 ratio male to female
1 = y + 2x + x
1 = y + 3x (no solution without negative numbers (-2=y, 1=x))

The above is also proof that 4:176 الكلالة al-kalālah is fatherless.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 26, 2012, 03:42:30 PM
Brother Noon, have you given a thought to this:

The most striking feature of the Inheritance law-injunction is that it is to be distributed according to the Will of Allah the Exalted and the wish of dying person who owns the wealth. Both are mandatory for the bereaved family. Moreover, it is mandatory for the dying person to bequest to dispense justice left to his discretion since he fully knows the ground realities of his kin.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 27, 2012, 02:05:27 PM
Brother Noon,

I have attempted a draft going by strictly the words and their grammatical structuring. Please see it and advise where you find mistakes and omissions.

Daughter not Son is the central theme of Inheritance. Dying wealthy person is given discretion to bequeath for parents and near blood relatives. (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 08:30:19 AM
Brother Noon,

I have attempted a draft going by strictly the words and their grammatical structuring. Please see it and advise where you find mistakes and omissions.

Daughter not Son is the central theme of Inheritance. Dying wealthy person is given discretion to bequeath for parents and near blood relatives. (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)

Peace brother Mazhar,

Well written with slight miss-reading of solitary son and applying "to the male like share the two females" and the females in 4:11 are alone, otherwise numerous cases math does not add.

example (person leaves $24k) any mixed children/siblings always use 2:1 ratio ...

children: 1 son 2 daughters
$12k son + $12k 2 daughters ($6k each)
4:11 للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

siblings: 1 brother 2 sisters
$12k brother + $12k 2 sisters ($6k each)
4:176 فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Quote
This direction is to meet the situation if solitary son is in the state of being for him-the deceased

Not only applied to solitary son case; more accurately read IF kana/he is (male) to deceased  born...

90:3 ووالد and the begetter وما and what ولد born/begot
19:15 وسلام and peace عليه upon him يوم day ولد born/begot
37:152 ولد born/begot الله The God وإنهم and indeed they لكاذبون surely liars

We obviously cannot use son above; son is ...

9:30 وقالت and said اليهود the Jews عزير Uzair ابن son الله The God وقالت and said النصارى al-nasara المسيح the Messiah ابن son الله The God


$24k to children, husband, and parents

example: 1 son
1/3   or $ 8k parents ($4k each) 4:11 IF male born = TRUE; parent = 1/6
1/4   or $ 6k husband            4:12 IF male born = TRUE; husband = 1/4
5/12  or $10k remainder son

example: 2 sons
1/3   or $ 8k parents ($4k each)
1/4   or $ 6k husband
5/12  or $10k remainder sons ($5k each)

example: 1 son 2 daughters
1/3   or $ 8k parents ($4k each)
1/4   or $ 6k husband
5/12  or $10k remainder children: $5k son + $5k 2 daughters ($2.5k each)
4:11 للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 08:46:17 AM
Quote
Not only applied to solitary son case; more accurately read IF kana/he is (male) to deceased  born...

90:3 ووالد and the begetter وما and what ولد born/begot
19:15 وسلام and peace عليه upon him يوم day ولد born/begot  [the verb is passive-the day he was born; begot denotes he bacame father of a child]
37:152 ولد born/begot الله The God وإنهم and indeed they لكاذبون surely liars


Sorry Noon, serious mistake----here in all three examples the word is Verb not a noun. In inheritance it is Noun with tanween, signifying solitary son-a son.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 08:51:53 AM
Quote
children: 1 son 2 daughters
$12k son + $12k 2 daughters ($6k each)
4:11 للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
siblings: 1 brother 2 sisters
$12k brother + $12k 2 sisters ($6k each)
4:176 فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Equation is given by the words that denote gender, not ecessarily dauther and son. It is the basic key in distribution.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 09:25:02 AM


Sorry Noon, serious mistake----here in all three examples the word is Verb not a noun. In inheritance it is Noun with tanween, signifying solitary son-a son.

We can explore addition of tanween to the script and when. Even if noun male child/son main question is:

IF kana/he is (male) to person walad/son (male child) = TRUE for cases > 1?

Does presence of a son trigger 1/6 to parent, 1/4 to husband, 1/8 to wife?

Like asking does deceased have son, yes/no? Or asking does deceased have brother, yes/no?

We have to choose the best meaning otherwise the calculations do not work.

Equation is given by the words that denote gender, not ecessarily dauther and son. It is the basic key in distribution.

It's clearly explained when they are mixed to use 2:1 ratio...

4:176 وإن AND IF كانوا kānū/they were إخوة ikh'watun siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing


 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 09:36:10 AM
Quote
IF kana/he is (male) to person walad/son (male child) = TRUE for cases > 1?

Does presence of a son trigger 1/6 to parent, 1/4 to husband, 1/8 to wife?


Son is the Noun of Verb Kana and matches the number and gender of verb. And Lahu relates to the predicate of Kana. This is conditional clause, which is describing a ground situation. Its apodosis clause is previous sentence. Thereat 1/6--it is Subject of sentence--is for each of the Parents. Similar is the condition clause for determined shares of spouses, there 1/8 is the Subject of sentence.
The share of solitary son is not determined by Allah the Exalted. The left over in such case is left to the discretion and justice of dying man. 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 09:47:39 AM
Quote
We obviously cannot use son above; son is ...

9:30 وقالت and said اليهود the Jews عزير Uzair ابن son الله The God وقالت and said النصارى al-nasara المسيح the Messiah ابن son الله The God

It needs to be kept in mind that each word of the vocabulary of Qur'aan is unique and un-substitutable pearl embedded at its place of occurrence in the text.

If you take this word and place it in 4:11 the whole sentence will be spoiled and shall become incorrect in all respects. Please note that it is used in Possessive Phrase and always becomes definite.
 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote
We have to choose the best meaning otherwise the calculations do not work.

Your approach and perhaps all others who have been trying to make the total equal 1 forgets that the total facts are not in front of them.

The issue is not hypothetical but an happening in real life. Data indicated in the Bequest is not before you. The mandatory prioritized shares are only known to you. The rest of the  inheritance is in the Bequest. 

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 10:04:44 AM

Son is the Noun of Verb Kana and matches the number and gender of verb. And Lahu relates to the predicate of Kana. This is conditional clause, which is describing a ground situation. Its apodosis clause is previous sentence. Thereat 1/6--it is Subject of sentence--is for each of the Parents. Similar is the condition clause for determined shares of spouses, there 1/8 is the Subject of sentence.
The share of solitary son is not determined by Allah the Exalted. The left over in such case is left to the discretion and justice of dying man.

Yes; the question is if the statement is TRUE for 2 sons, 3 sons, 10 sons, etc.?

IF kana/(he is) shapes gender of walad IF male child/son then 1/6 to parent.

Your approach and perhaps all others who have been trying to make the total equal 1 forgets that the total facts are not in front of them.

The issue is not hypothetical but an happening in real life. Data indicated in the Bequest is not before you. The mandatory prioritized shares are only known to you. The rest of the  inheritance is in the Bequest. 


If we had the total facts, a will etc.,no need to consult inheritance verses to arbitrate.
They are to be applied when person died, no will, nothing! That is reality for majority.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 10:15:22 AM
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 09:55:49 AM
Quote
Your approach and perhaps all others who have been trying to make the total equal 1 forgets that the total facts are not in front of them.

The issue is not hypothetical but an happening in real life. Data indicated in the Bequest is not before you. The mandatory prioritized shares are only known to you. The rest of the  inheritance is in the Bequest.
 


Yes; the question is if the statement is TRUE for 2 sons, 3 sons, 10 sons, etc.?

IF kana/(he is) shapes gender of walad IF male child/son then 1/6 to parent.

If we had the total facts, a will etc.,no need to consult inheritance verses to arbitrate.
They are to be applied when person died, no will, nothing! That is reality for majority.

It is not you and me [yes only when death approaches us] to consult the Shares determined and allocated to certain ones by Allah the Exalted. It is the dying person to know the "out of bound" areas of his wealth and decide only about that wealth which is left to his discretion for distribution.

Those who do what you stated in red are the violators of the command of Allah the Exalted. They accept Qur'aan partially. We are not concerned with them. It is incumbent upon the Muttaqeen.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 09:55:49 AM 


It is not you and me [yes only when death approaches us] to consult the Shares determined and allocated to certain ones by Allah the Exalted. It is the dying person to know the "out of bound" areas of his wealth and decide only about that wealth which is left to his discretion for distribution.

Those who do what you stated in red are the violators of the command of Allah the Exalted. They accept Qur'aan partially. We are not concerned with them. It is incumbent upon the Muttaqeen.

OK what's the whole point of inheritance verses; what do we do with his $4 million property?

A man died, no will, and left three small children: 1 son, 2 daughters

A man died, no will, and left three small siblings: 1 brother, 2 sisters

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
OK what's the whole point of inheritance verses; what do we do with his $4 million property?

A man died, no will, and left three small children: 1 son, 2 daughters

Two thrid of $ 4 million property shall be reserved for orphans-2 daughters-1 son who will acquire it on reaching strengthen maturity. The near blood men of deceased enjoying repute will maintain the property of orphans, and decide about the remaining 1/3rd.

وَابْتَلُواْ الْيَتَامَى حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُم مِّنْهُمْ رُشْدًا فَادْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ وَلاَ تَأْكُلُوهَا إِسْرَافًا وَبِدَارًا أَن يَكْبَرُواْ وَمَن كَانَ غَنِيًّا فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ وَمَن كَانَ فَقِيرًا فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ  فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ حَسِيبًا

Allah the Exalted has taken care of a situation where a person dies all of a sudden. Please see the article I have coloured and bolded OR appearing between Bequest and Outstanding business obligation of the deceased.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 10:38:52 AM
Two thrid of $ 4 million property shall be reserved for orphans-2 daughters-1 son who will acquire it on reaching strengthen maturity. The near blood men of deceased enjoying repute will maintain the property of orphans, and decide about the remaining 1/3rd.

وَابْتَلُواْ الْيَتَامَى حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُم مِّنْهُمْ رُشْدًا فَادْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ وَلاَ تَأْكُلُوهَا إِسْرَافًا وَبِدَارًا أَن يَكْبَرُواْ وَمَن كَانَ غَنِيًّا فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ وَمَن كَانَ فَقِيرًا فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ  فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ حَسِيبًا

Contradiction; you are giving away $1.33 million of their money to others?
What if there are no near blood relatives? Even if there were that's stealing!

Now do the other example same amount: 1 brother, 2 sisters?


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 10:46:25 AM
Contradiction; you are giving away $1.33 million of their money to others?
What if there are no near blood relatives? Even if there were that's stealing!

Now do the other example same amount: 1 brother, 2 sisters?

I have not given. Allah the Exalted is so allowing. Please see the red part of just quoted Ayah. As regards stealing, Allah the Exalted knows it---that is why He the Exalted has mentioned such people in other Ayah mentioned in the Article and the effect of all such foul plays with the property of orphans. No other blood relatives does not mean that the whole society does not exist for this dead man. That is why no specific person is nominated to maintain the property--just general advice what they can consume out of the inheritance.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 10:53:41 AM
I have not given. Allah the Exalted is so allowing. Please see the red part of just quoted Ayah. As regards stealing, Allah the Exalted knows it---that is why He the Exalted has mentioned such people in other Ayah mentioned in the Article and the effect of all such foul plays with the property of orphans. No other blood relatives does not mean that the whole society does not exist for this dead man. That is why no specific person is nominated to maintain the property--just general advice what they can consume out of the inheritance.

What does I have not given mean? If you don't know it's OK to say so. Here use this:

1 brother, 2 sisters (or any mixed siblings)
4:176 وإن AND IF كانوا kānū/they were إخوة ikh'watun siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Mazhar -- take the same example as before for little kids; what if they were adults?

You suggesting take their $1.33 million away and give it to whom exactly strangers?

Simply do what the book says: 1 son, 2 daughters (or any mixed children)
4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 11:34:35 AM
Quote
You suggesting take their $1.33 million away and give it to whom exactly strangers?


It is not me suggesting this. Allah the Exalted is asking the dying person to decide about it. If he could not decide it because of sudden death, others have to decide about it.
The discourse about the distribution of inheritance begins with the Bequest made mandatory for the dying person. What was the point in making it compulsory for Muttaqeen if Allah the Exalted had to decide about the hundred percent distribution of wealth?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 12:23:11 PM

It is not me suggesting this. Allah the Exalted is asking the dying person to decide about it. If he could not decide it because of sudden death, others have to decide about it.
The discourse about the distribution of inheritance begins with the Bequest made mandatory for the dying person. What was the point in making it compulsory for Muttaqeen if Allah the Exalted had to decide about the hundred percent distribution of wealth?

Mazhar --

It's written and decided; does not say 2/3 for mixed children/siblings anywhere?
It is 2:1 ratio when mixed; how many times do I have to post the same verses?

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:176 وإن AND IF كانوا kānū/they were إخوة ikh'watun siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

(http://oi47.tinypic.com/2cs8och.jpg)

It's you who is wrongly allocating be they old or young 2/3 for all mixed cases:

1 son, 1 daughter
2 sons, 2 daughters
3 sons, 3 daughters

Read carefully, 2/3 is only when nisa are alone, no sons hence they get the whole 2/3...

4:11 فإن so if كن kunna/are (feminine plural) نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن falahunna so to them (feminine plural) 2/3

(http://oi49.tinypic.com/30hrbc3.jpg)

Likewise, 1/2 for the daughter, no sons; she gets the whole half

4:11  وإن and if كانت kānat/is (feminine singular) واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
Quote
It is not me suggesting this. Allah the Exalted is asking the dying person to decide about it. If he could not decide it because of sudden death, others have to decide about it.
The discourse about the distribution of inheritance begins with the Bequest made mandatory for the dying person. What was the point in making it compulsory for Muttaqeen if Allah the Exalted had to decide about the hundred percent distribution of wealth?

Quote
Mazhar -- that is the whole point, it does not say 2/3 for mixed children or siblings anywhere?

It's always 2:1 ratio for mixed siblings; how many times does one have to post the same verses?

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:176 وإن AND IF كانوا kānū/they were إخوة ikh'watun siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

أولادكم  It is plural and includes multiple progenies inclusive of feminines and males. Nowhere, we find subsequently that Allah the Exalted has appointed shares for أولادكم . But it is not like that. The shares of أولادكم  are determined by the mention of 3 daughters, two daughters, and one daugther sequence. And in case of combined progenies no share is described since the basic unit of inheritance are the feminines--- share of two feminine shall be given to a male.

There cannot be an equation of shares netween feminine and masculine when there is only a daughter or only a son. Such situations are seperately dealt. 

The point that the whole scheme revolves around daughters, is also evident from the last information where أولادكم is not used but only sons

The Parents and the Sons of you people, You know not with certainty who of them are more nearer for you, nearer in context of beneficent [on Day of Judgment].
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
أولادكم  It is plural and includes multiple progenies inclusive of feminines and males. Nowhere, we find subsequently that Allah the Exalted has appointed shares for أولادكم . But it is not like that. The shares of أولادكم  are determined by the mention of 3 daughters, two daughters, and one daugther sequence. And in case of combined progenies no share is described since the basic unit of inheritance are the feminines--- share of two feminine shall be given to a male.

There cannot be an equation of shares netween feminine and masculine when there is only a daughter or only a son. Such situations are seperately dealt.

What you mean separately dealt with, how you going apply 4:176?

The equation or 2:1 ratio covers all mixed children and siblings combinations.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:176 وإن AND IF كانوا kānū/they were إخوة ikh'watun siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

(http://oi47.tinypic.com/2cs8och.jpg)

1 son, 1 daughter (2/3, 1/3 or m = 2f)
1+ sons, 1+ daughters


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
What you mean separately dealt with, how you going apply 4:176?


It is at:

7. With regard to progeny, we are left with only a situation where the deceased is leaving behind the solitary Son. In this situation, Allah the Exalted has not made the Son as preferential. Instead, the parents and spouse of the dying person are declared preferential and their share is mandatory prioritized leaving the allocation for the living Son at the discretion of the dying person. Allah the Exalted has not prescribed the share for a solitary living son of the deceased.

8. In case of a solitary son as heir, the living father and mother each get straight away 1/6th out of that inheritance which the deceased has left behind. The mandatory prioritized share of Wife is 1/8th out of the inheritance. In such cases, the Inheritance is divided into twenty-four parts; eleven out of twenty-four parts straight going to father, mother and the Widow, if they all are surviving, otherwise their respective share will also obviously go to the discretion of the dying person to allocate it to the next relatively near blood relation. Near Blood relation is referred by the relationship of Wombs, it thus includes grandfather, grandmother and grand-progeny.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 28, 2012, 01:44:19 PM
What you mean separately dealt with, how you going apply 4:176?

It is at:

7. With regard to progeny, we are left with only a situation where the deceased is leaving behind the solitary Son. In this situation, Allah the Exalted has not made the Son as preferential. Instead, the parents and spouse of the dying person are declared preferential and their share is mandatory prioritized leaving the allocation for the living Son at the discretion of the dying person. Allah the Exalted has not prescribed the share for a solitary living son of the deceased.

8. In case of a solitary son as heir, the living father and mother each get straight away 1/6th out of that inheritance which the deceased has left behind. The mandatory prioritized share of Wife is 1/8th out of the inheritance. In such cases, the Inheritance is divided into twenty-four parts; eleven out of twenty-four parts straight going to father, mother and the Widow, if they all are surviving, otherwise their respective share will also obviously go to the discretion of the dying person to allocate it to the next relatively near blood relation. Near Blood relation is referred by the relationship of Wombs, it thus includes grandfather, grandmother and grand-progeny.


No need to write so much; I asked to apply 4:176 kalala no child: 1 brother, 1 sister?

4:176 ... فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

Your answer should be simple: 2/3 brother, 1/3 sister or m=2f

Suggest applying to EVERY CASE test consistency; like program three logic gates...

إن IF, فإن so/ELSE IF,  وإن AND IF

Input inheritors, output according to Qur'an!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 28, 2012, 02:15:18 PM
Have you noticed what was not mentioned or prescribed in 4:11 and 4:12 which could also be a ground reality, leaving a question for the listeners to enquire about it?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: mahmuud on July 29, 2012, 03:56:49 AM
Pleace look at this book about this matter:

http://www.quraniclesson.com/download.php?fid=1&ext=pdf&fn=Division%20of%20Inheritance%202nd%20Edition.pdf




   
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 29, 2012, 05:10:53 AM
His basic premises, what to read afterwards 500 pages, is patently incorrect and far away from Qur'aan. Son concept is heavily controlling his mind.

He begins with Status 1 as Son, Qur'aan gives status 1 to women.

Daughter (s) are direct beneficiary by the shares determined by Allah the Exalted.

One Son has nowhere been given direct share by Allah the Exalted.

He forgets about the Bequest part which is fundamental to Inheritance division.

He ignores difference between مَوَالِيَ and الْوَارِثُ to determine who is primary and secondary.

   
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 29, 2012, 09:06:47 AM
Pleace look at this book about this matter:

http://www.quraniclesson.com/download.php?fid=1&ext=pdf&fn=Division%20of%20Inheritance%202nd%20Edition.pdf

You keep spamming the forum with same link to stupid book by the clueless.

Have you noticed what was not mentioned or prescribed in 4:11 and 4:12 which could also be a ground reality, leaving a question for the listeners to enquire about it?

The verses are clear instructions to be applied in the real world and when someone asks to show them, it does little to answer with questions and perpetual expounding -- simply show distributions; it's not complex.

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلالة al-kalalah إن if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد child/born...

No children; we know only inheritors to enter the verse are mother and siblings. Therefore...

1 sister, mother: 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2 sisters, mother: 1 - 2/3 sisters, 1/3 each = 1/3 mother
3+ sisters, mother: unstated distribute evenly

1+ sisters, 1+ brothers: 2:1 ratio male to female

mother, 1+ brothers: 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brothers

mother, 1+ sisters, 1+ brothers: 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings 2:1 ratio male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 29, 2012, 10:53:18 AM
Quote
في in الكلالة al-kalalah


What does it mean?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 29, 2012, 11:09:11 AM


What does it mean?

Deceased left no crown/head of house 4:176 الكلالة al-kalālah is father-less spouse-less.

Mathematical proof:
1 = father (variable) + siblings mixed 2:1 ratio male to female
1 = y + 2x + x
1 = y + 3x (no solution without involving negative numbers (-2=y, 1=x))

1/2 sister   + 1/4 wife = 3/4 to little
2/3 sisters + 1/2 husband = 1 + 1/6 too much

Likewise more contradictions with other computations with siblings and father/spouse.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 29, 2012, 12:09:00 PM
Deceased left no crown/head of house 4:176 الكلالة al-kalālah is father-less spouse-less.


I infer from above---is it correct

You mean his father is not living at the time of his death-he is already dead. What about mother?

And spouse-less, you mean his/her spouse is not surviving at the time of his/her death.

What about a son? He be having a surviving son or might have died without a son.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 29, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
I infer from above---is it correct

You mean his father is not living at the time of his death-he is already dead. What about mother?

Correct, deceased did not have a father.
Mother may be alive since  4:11 IF إخوة ikh'wat mother =1/6

And spouse-less, you mean his/her spouse is not surviving at the time of his/her death.

Correct, deceased did not have a spouse.

What about a son? He be having a surviving son or might have died without a son.

Of course there is the possibility of kalalah with son/child otherwise no need to state if not to person child if kalalah is childless as most translators wrongly interpret.

Kalalah no child use 4:176
4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلالة al-kalalah (fatherless spouseless) إن if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد waladun/child

Kalalah with son use 4:12 otherwise there is confusion what to give 1 sister: 1/2 or 1/6

4:12... وإن and if كان kāna is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا kānū they were أكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 29, 2012, 01:21:05 PM
Quote
I infer from above---is it correct

You mean his father is not living at the time of his death-he is already dead. What about mother?

Quote
Correct, deceased did not have a father.
Mother may be alive since  4:11 IF إخوة ikh'wat mother =1/6

So alternate state could be that Father survives while the Mother is dead.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 29, 2012, 06:34:46 PM
So alternate state could be that Father survives while the Mother is dead.

All inheritors can be present or not present; with presence of father/spouse siblings get nothing.

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed 4:11) = 2/3 father; siblings = 0

1 - 1/6 mother (fixed 4:11) = 5/6 brother/siblings mixed

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 30, 2012, 04:50:35 AM
Quote
All inheritors can be present or not present; with presence of father/spouse siblings get nothing.

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed 4:11) = 2/3 father; siblings = 0

Where is this red part written?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 30, 2012, 05:57:44 AM
Where is this red part written?

4:11 ... فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/known) = 2/3 father (variable/unknown)

Logical deduction AND IF OR NOT ELSE (used to build supercomputers) differentiates the human from most creatures.

Peace!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 30, 2012, 09:30:40 AM
4:11 ... فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/known) = 2/3 father (variable/unknown)

Logical deduction AND IF OR NOT ELSE (used to build supercomputers) differentiates the human from most creatures.

Peace!

In the interpretation of law, and particularly in matters of money/wealth it is not permitted that the reader starts inserting new law in the name of logical deductions.

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 30, 2012, 09:39:26 AM
4:11 ... فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/known) = 2/3 father (variable/unknown)

Logical deduction AND IF OR NOT ELSE (used to build supercomputers) differentiates the human from most creatures.

Peace!

What will be the case if the diceased is a woma?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 30, 2012, 12:33:19 PM
What will be the case if the diceased is a woma?


The same; why ask ? are not women included in the human category or want discuss nuances of Arabic?

4:11 ... فلأمه  so to his mother الثلث the third

31:14 ووصينا and We enjoined الإنسان the human بوالديه to his parents حملته carried him أمه  his mother وهنا weakness على upon وهن infirmity وفصاله and his separation في in عامين two years أن that اشكر be thankful لي to Me ولوالديك and to your parents إلي to Me المصير the destiny
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on July 30, 2012, 02:09:49 PM

The same; why ask ? are not women included in the human category or want discuss nuances of Arabic?

4:11 ... فلأمه  so to his mother الثلث the third

31:14 ووصينا and We enjoined الإنسان the human بوالديه to his parents حملته carried him أمه  his mother وهنا weakness على upon وهن infirmity وفصاله and his separation في in عامين two years أن that اشكر be thankful لي to Me ولوالديك and to your parents إلي to Me المصير the destiny

بوالديه is dual active participle signifying The Father and the Mother. Parents being plural in english is perhaps not suitable translation particularly because it also denotes to act as parent. When genders are specified in text then they refer only to that gender not interchangeably.

I have attempted in two parts and posted it seperately since Arabic text is used in images. You are requested to critically examine it. Thanks
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 04, 2012, 07:12:26 PM
I have attempted in two parts and posted it seperately since Arabic text is used in images. You are requested to critically examine it. Thanks

Peace Mazhar, your article starts off well then turns into an illogical hairball with multiple errors started by assigning 2/3 to mixed children/siblings ignors clear instructions 2/3 is to females only, lacks comprehension of basic فإن ELSE IF وإن AND IF switch to different case and gives only partial distributions with remainder unaccounted.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:11 فإن ELSE IF كن are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha 2/3

4:176...  فإن ELSE IF كانتا they were (feminine) اثنتين two فلهما falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) الثلثان the third dual (2/3)
4:176... وإن AND IF كانوا they were إخوة siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 04, 2012, 07:22:29 PM
Thank you. You have clarified it for me. This is what I understood. All I need to do now is irrefutably clarify when and under what conditions this applies.

These are all conditions 1/6 or 1/3 to siblings applies (what differentiates sister in 4:12 and 4:176).

كلالة kalalah (fatherless spouseless, left no crown/head of household) has son

4:12 ..فإن so if كان kana/is (masculine) لكم to you ولد walad/offspring (i.e. if to person male child/born/son) فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment (continue case if son...)

 وإن and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalalah (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman
 وله and has أخ brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth
 فإن so if كانوا they were أكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third

1 - 1/6 sister/brother = 5/6 son/s
1 - 1/3 2+ sisters/brothers/mixed = 2/3 son/s

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 sister/brother = 2/3 son/s
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/3 2+ sisters/brothers/mixed = 1/2 son/s

1 - 1/6 sister/brother = 5/6 children (daughter/s and son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female
1 - 1/3 2+ sisters/brothers/mixed = 5/6 children (daughter/s and son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 sister/brother = 2/3 children (daughter/s and son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/3 2+ sisters/brothers/mixed = 1/2 children (daughter/s and son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 05:11:09 AM
Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on July 30, 2012, 02:09:49 PM
I have attempted in two parts and posted it seperately since Arabic text is used in images. You are requested to critically examine it. Thanks
Peace Mazhar, your article starts off well then turns into an illogical hairball with multiple errors started by assigning 2/3 to mixed children/siblings ignors clear instructions 2/3 is to females only, lacks comprehension of basic فإن ELSE IF وإن AND IF switch to different case and gives only partial distributions with remainder unaccounted.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:11 فإن ELSE IF كن are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha 2/3


Sorry Noon,

What is stuck up in mind is to make the total equal to 1, that is, the whole inheritance.
Thereby, you are not listening and keep on ignoring the basic provisions of law for distribution of inheritance. What you are making hundered percent is just superfluous mathematics not the portions assigned by Allah the Exalted or the Dying Man.

The share is based on feminine gender, not daughter or sister and son or brother,. It is not equatining of persons belonging to different gender. First take the Subject of Sentence and then read its predicate. You read predicate first and the subject later on as was done by majority of translators showing as if they did not know even the basics of Arabic grammar and sentence structuring.

The base for distribution is feminine shares which will bring in the brother in total that can go to three feminine shares.
The other base for distribution is single son or absence of single son.

What is the share for unknown "someone" who is still in the womb of a wife?
What will be the fate of "someone" unknown in the womb of a wife who was alienated-pronounced suspension of Matrimonial Bond [divorce not effected yet] a day before his death?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 05, 2012, 07:43:38 AM
Sorry Noon,

What is stuck up in mind is to make the total equal to 1, that is, the whole inheritance.
Thereby, you are not listening and keep on ignoring the basic provisions of law for distribution of inheritance. What you are making hundered percent is just superfluous mathematics not the portions assigned by Allah the Exalted or the Dying Man.

No, it is you who is not listening or reading correctly making up things that is nowhere stated in Qur'an.
By your logic if only heirs parents; you would give mother 1/3 tell father to take a hike 2/3 unaccounted.

4:11  فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable)

The share is based on feminine gender, not daughter or sister and son or brother,. It is not equatining of persons belonging to different gender. First take the Subject of Sentence and then read its predicate. You read predicate first and the subject later on as was done by majority of translators showing as if they did not know even the basics of Arabic grammar and sentence structuring.

The base for distribution is feminine shares which will bring in the brother in total that can go to three feminine shares.
The other base for distribution is single son or absence of single son.

Again a mathematical illogical hairball; obey the explicit instructions pay attention to switch case ELSE IF AND IF!
In addition you always have to give 2/3 to 3+ daughters or 1/2 to 1 daughter; therefore if you insist on mixing...

1 - 1/2 one daughter     = 1/2 ten sons (1/20 each) is illogical
1 - 2/3 three daughters = 1/3 ten sons (1/30 each) is illogical

What is the share for unknown "someone" who is still in the womb of a wife?
What will be the fate of "someone" unknown in the womb of a wife who was alienated-pronounced suspension of Matrimonial Bond [divorce not effected yet] a day before his death?

Again, I've posted for you and asked you numerous times to answer the basic question which you consistently avoid and come back with more perpetual questions and tireless expounding of grammar of clear simple verses. Now are you going to answer the question how you assign 2/3 to both males and females when it's explicit that 2/3 goes only to females?

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)
4:11 فإن ELSE IF كن are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha 2/3

4:176...  فإن ELSE IF كانتا they were (feminine) اثنتين two فلهما falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) الثلثان the third dual (2/3)
4:176... وإن AND IF كانوا they were إخوة siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)

As to your question of a pregnant wife (man dies leaves no will), distribute the same 100% to all inheritors according to Qur'an whether she was pregnant or not pregnant, rich or poor, etc., and they the inheritors (not you) are responsible for their care after the distribution depending on their situation.

These are examples which I stated to you numerous times if you are going to comment on inheritance verses you need to go through all combinations and your math has to be consistent otherwise you contradict and therefore it is not Qur'an!

100% wife, sibling/s 0 not kalalah case

1 - 1/4 wife = 3/4 mother/father

1 - 1/2 (1 daughter, 1/2 always)= 1/2 wife
1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 wife

1 - 1/4 wife = 3/4 (3/8 mother + 3/8 father)

1 - 1/2 (1 daughter)  = 1/2 (1/4 wife + 1/4 mother/father)
1 - 2/3 (3 daughters) = 1/3 (1/6 wife + 1/6 mother/father)

1 - 1/6 mother/father - 1/8 wife       = 17/24 son/s
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/8 wife = 13/24 son/s

1 - 1/8 wife = 7/8 children (mixed) 2:1 ratio male to female

1 - 1/2 (1 daughter)   = 1/2 (1/6 wife + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father)
1 - 2/3 (3 daughters) = 1/3 (1/9 wife + 1/9 mother + 1/9 father)
 
1 - 1/6 mother/father - 1/8 wife         = 17/24 children (mixed) 2:1 ratio male to female
1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/8 wife = 13/24 children (mixed) 2:1 ratio male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 08:29:04 AM
Quote
No, it is you who is not listening or reading correctly making up things that is nowhere stated in Qur'an.
By your logic if only heirs parents; you would give mother 1/3 tell father to take a hike 2/3 unaccounted.

4:11  فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable)

You assign 2/3 to father of a deceased man who had no son to inherit him and instead his Father and Mother are called his Waris. This is because Allah the Exalted has assigned only for mother the 1/3 in this case.

Who has assigned 2/3 to father?
Where is it said that left over will be for such and such person?
Variable means liable to change especially suddenly and unpredictably. Who will decide the change this 2/3?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 08:34:27 AM
Quote
Again a mathematical illogical hairball; obey the explicit instructions pay attention to switch case ELSE IF AND IF!
In addition you always have to give 2/3 to 3+ daughters or 1/2 to 1 daughter; therefore if you insist on mixing...

1 - 1/2 one daughter     = 1/2 ten sons (1/20 each) is illogical
1 - 2/3 three daughters = 1/3 ten sons (1/30 each) is illogical

I did not say this. What I said is that the progenies [comibination of daughters and sons] where shares are three minimum, the two third is fixed by Allah the Exalted for the progeneies. The rest is at the discretion of the dying person.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 08:42:46 AM
You straight go to mathematics for arriving at 1.
Do you accept this injunction as the Part of Inheritance distribution or otherwise like those who might call it Mansukh:

The Oral Bequest in favour of the Mother and Father and the relatively Near Blood relatives, in accordance with the well known norms, has been prescribed-decreed upon you at the point in time when the natural death has approached someone of you people, in case he is leaving behind worldly wealth.
This is mandatory-incumbent upon people who are cautious, heedful and mindful in reverence and fear of Allah the Exalted.
[2:180]
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 05, 2012, 09:03:34 AM
You assign 2/3 to father of a deceased man who had no son to inherit him and instead his Father and Mother are called his Waris. This is because Allah the Exalted has assigned only for mother the 1/3 in this case.

Who has assigned 2/3 to father?
Where is it said that left over will be for such and such person?
Variable means liable to change especially suddenly and unpredictably. Who will decide the change this 2/3?

Peace Mazhar -- use the brain, this is basic common sense logic. IF only parents, no child.

You only need to know one to figure out the other. I don't have time to teach simple logic.

a + b = 1; 1 - a = b; 1 - b = a

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

Likewise example: 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 brother (variable/unstated)

4:11... فإن so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third
4:11... فإن so if كان kana/is (masculine) له to person إخوة ikh'wat (i.e. if to person male sibling) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth

You straight go to mathematics for arriving at 1.
Do you accept this injunction as the Part of Inheritance distribution or otherwise like those who might call it Mansukh:

The Oral Bequest in favour of the Mother and Father and the relatively Near Blood relatives, in accordance with the well known norms, has been prescribed-decreed upon you at the point in time when the natural death has approached someone of you people, in case he is leaving behind worldly wealth.
This is mandatory-incumbent upon people who are cautious, heedful and mindful in reverence and fear of Allah the Exalted.
[2:180]

Yes at time of death make out a will and if he gets hit by a big rock (no will) distribute according to Qur'an.

Likewise at time of death one can simply say distribute all my property according to Qur'an -- use verses.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 09:26:03 AM
Quote
Peace Mazhar -- use the brain, this is basic common sense logic. IF only parents, no child.

You only need to know one to figure out the other. I don't have time to teach simple logic.

a + b = 1; 1 - a = b; 1 - b = a

1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

In Law there is no such simple logic. In executing provisions of law, such use of brain is not allowed. In law things are not left in vacuum at the mercy of general public to draw whatever their brains suggests them to infer.

Law is always definite and specific. The principle is laid down. Allah the Exalted is assigning shares by His Will and asking the Dying Person to give his Will for the rest.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 09:30:12 AM
Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 08:42:46 AM
You straight go to mathematics for arriving at 1.
Do you accept this injunction as the Part of Inheritance distribution or otherwise like those who might call it Mansukh:

The Oral Bequest in favour of the Mother and Father and the relatively Near Blood relatives, in accordance with the well known norms, has been prescribed-decreed upon you at the point in time when the natural death has approached someone of you people, in case he is leaving behind worldly wealth.
This is mandatory-incumbent upon people who are cautious, heedful and mindful in reverence and fear of Allah the Exalted. [2:180]

Quote
Yes at time of death make out a will  and if he gets hit by a big rock (no will) distribute according to Qur'an.

So he made a will, where would go then your mathematics yielding result 1?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 05, 2012, 10:08:23 AM
In Law there is no such simple logic. In executing provisions of law, such use of brain is not allowed. In law things are not left in vacuum at the mercy of general public to draw whatever their brains suggests them to infer.

Law is always definite and specific. The principle is laid down. Allah the Exalted is assigning shares by His Will and asking the Dying Person to give his Will for the rest.

What is it that you do not understand inheritance verses are to be applied when there is no will?

IF left no will or killed in battle or die instantly or after distribution the wife has a heart attack, etc...

So he made a will, where would go then your mathematics yielding result 1?

It's not mine and whatever they decide the amount is always equal to 1 or the whole!

Example man writes a will $ 3.111 million total inheritance:

$ 1 million to his daughter
$ 1 million to his wife
$ 1 million to his mother
$ 0 to incompetent son
$ 100k to his neighbors
$ 10k throw in street to strangers
$ 1k convert to Russian Rubles then burn it





Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 10:12:37 AM
Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 09:26:03 AM
In Law there is no such simple logic. In executing provisions of law, such use of brain is not allowed. In law things are not left in vacuum at the mercy of general public to draw whatever their brains suggests them to infer.

Law is always definite and specific. The principle is laid down. Allah the Exalted is assigning shares by His Will and asking the Dying Person to give his Will for the rest.

What is it that you do not understand inheritance verses are to be applied when there is no will?

IF left no will or killed in battle or die instantly or after distribution the wife has a heart attack, etc...

But brother why you conveniently forget that in all the three Verses where Allah the Exalted assigns shares to particular persons in particular situations, the Bequest is the integral part at all places?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 10:15:30 AM
Quote
It's not mine and whatever they decide the amount is always equal to 1 or the whole!

Example man writes a will $ 3.111 million total inheritance:

$ 1 million to his daughter
$ 1 million to his wife
$ 1 million to his mother
$ 0 to incompetent son
$ 100k to his neighbors
$ 10k throw in street to strangers
$ 1k convert to Russian Rubles then burn it

Again you are presuming things in vacuum. In law there is no such funny things. The Bequest is in favour of Mother and Father, and the Relatively Nearer Blood Relatives.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 10:21:33 AM
Quote
hat is it that you do not understand inheritance verses are to be applied when there is no will?

Thereby, acording to your variable formula, if there is a Will, the Verses are not to be applied. Are you suggesting this?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 05, 2012, 10:34:42 AM
But brother why you conveniently forget that in all the three Verses where Allah the Exalted assigns shares to particular persons in particular situations, the Bequest is the integral part at all places?

Thereby, acording to your variable formula, if there is a Will, the Verses are not to be applied. Are you suggesting this?

Peace, I forget nothing! 4:11 ... من from (means to subtract) بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment

1 - 100% (if left will to distribute the whole) =   0% amount to be distributed
1 -    0% (if deceased has left no will at all) = 100% amount to be distributed
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 10:39:57 AM
Peace, I forget nothing! 4:11 ... من from (means to subtract) بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment

1 - 100% (if left will to distribute the whole) =   0% amount to be distributed
1 -    0% (if deceased has left no will at all) = 100% amount to be distributed

What I had stated verbally what you think about distribution of inheritance, you have simply endorsed that in mathematical way.

"judgment" decreed by whom?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 05, 2012, 11:02:49 AM
What I had stated verbally what you think about distribution of inheritance, you have simply endorsed that in mathematical way.

"judgment" decreed by whom?

Yes, if they see it good or fair to leave nothing to certain relatives or leave everything to one child -- up to them!

Without a will or partial will, inheritance verses kick in to arbitrate and avoid bickering among different inheritors.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 11:32:39 AM
Yes, if they see it good or fair to leave nothing to certain relatives or leave everything to one child -- up to them!

Without a will or partial will, inheritance verses kick in to arbitrate and avoid bickering among different inheritors.

So, the Bequest is an integral part for distribution of Inheritance;  this is agreed!!

Now about "judgment". The word  دَيْنٌ, is a Verbal Noun/Infinitive Noun, reflecting a state of having bought on credit-the liability outstanding, or under loan.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 22, 2012, 06:28:46 PM
Here are all combinations again for reference; obviously sole inheritor gets the whole, no need for arbitration laws.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)...

son/s + daughter/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 ... فان so if كن kunna/are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha (2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kanat/is (feminine) واحده one فلها so to her النصف the half

 ولابويه and to their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child/born)

 فان so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child born وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

 فان so if كان kana/is (masculine singular) له to person اخوه ikh'wat (if male sibling/brother) فلامه so to his mother السدس the sixth

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصي have made بها in it او or دين judgmentاباؤكم your fathers وابناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know ايهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضه obligation من from الله The God ان indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

1 father + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/3 mother + 2/3 father = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 brother/s = 1

1/6 mother/father + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 mother/father = 1
2 daughters + mother/father equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 mother/father = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
2 daughters + mother + father all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 kalalah fatherless and spouseless no son (sibling/s variable/unstated)
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (mother + sister/s) = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + mother + sister/s (all share equally) = 1
2 daughters + brother/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1
2 daughters + brother/s + sister/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (mother + sister/s) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 sister/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + sister/s = 1
2 daughters + brother/s = 1
2 daughters + sister/s + brother/s = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 sister/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

4:12 ولكم and to you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouse?s ان if لم not يكن was لهن to them ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لهن to them ولد walad/son (if is male child/born) فلكم so to you الربع the fourth

 مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصين they made بها in it او or دين judgment

 ولهن and to them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left ان if لم not يكن was لكم to you ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لكم to you ولد walad/son (i.e. if to person male child/born) فلهن falahunna/so to them الثمن the eight

 مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصيه a will توصون you made بها in it او or دين judgment...

1 spouse + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 son/s = 1
1/8 wife    + 7/8 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 spouse = 1
2 daughters + spouse equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 spouse = 1

1/2 husband + 1/2 mother/father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/4 mother/father = 1

1/2 husband + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/8 mother + 3/8 father = 1

1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife    + 17/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother/father + 1/4 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother/father + spouse all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother/father + 1/6 spouse = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/8 wife    + 13/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/6 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother + father + spouse (share equally) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/9 mother + 1/9 father + 1/9 spouse = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife + 17/24 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 children mixed (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:12 kalalah fatherless and spouseless has son; sibling/s fixed at 1/6 or 1/3
4:12 .. وان and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلاله kalalah (no crown/head of household; fatherless and spouseless) او or امراه woman

 وله and has اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth

 فان so if كانوا they were اكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصى is recommended بها in it او or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصيه a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 son/s = 1

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 son/s = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:176 al-kalalah the fatherless and spouseless no offspring/child born
4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah (the fatherless and spouseless; deceased left no crown/head of household)

 ان if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child وله and has اخت sister فلها so to her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it ان if لم not يكن was لها to her ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كانتا they were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the third twice (2/3) مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

 يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you ان lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing

1 sister  1/2 + 1/2 mother = 1
2 sisters 2/3 (1/3 each) + 1/3 mother = 1
3 sisters (1/4 each x 3) + 1/4 mother = 1

sister/s + brother/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 (sister/s + brother/s) distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 23, 2012, 01:13:42 PM
But from where you draw the authority in doint that?
For doing any thing one must quote the provision of law, otherwise the court declares it dismissed as nonsense gossip.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 23, 2012, 02:06:05 PM
But from where you draw the authority in doint that?
For doing any thing one must quote the provision of law, otherwise the court declares it dismissed as nonsense gossip.


My dear Mazhar,

Qur'an is for people with logic who understand basic IF ELSE statements which half your posts are gossip fantasies and therefore, instead of spamming this thread I strongly suggest you go back to that other pre-marital nonsense thread and argue about how you possess your housemaids and desire to do them a favor and marry them or whatever.

Logic is not for you since you are wired different and only write needlessly long grammatical expositions of clear, short, precise verses, and instructions; evident when you could not comprehend a simple concept of an IF statement like...

?IF only parents give to the mother 1/3? then you asked from where the father gets 2/3?

Duh!

The difference between humans of intellect and the cattle can be described as such...

The dog pursues a scent and comes to a fork in the road.
The dog sniffs false the 1st path.
The dog will not reason IF NOT 1st THEN logically it's the 2nd!
The dog will need to sniff the 2nd as well to have it register!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 23, 2012, 02:45:22 PM
Quote
?IF only parents give to the mother 1/3? then you asked from where the father gets 2/3?

Law books do not leave its provisions at the mercy of logic of people like the sniff of dogs. Unless it is described in the book that in such case 2/3 goes to father, saying so is mere presumption void of legality.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 23, 2012, 03:15:11 PM
Law books do not leave its provisions at the mercy of logic of people like the sniff of dogs. Unless it is described in the book that in such case 2/3 goes to father, saying so is mere presumption void of legality.

4:11 ولابويه and to their parents (start case distribution to parents and apply ان IF فان so IF logic)

 لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان IF كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child)

 فان so IF (we are still on parents) لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents alive) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

basic logic if only parents: 1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

$3000

$1000 or 1/3 mother
$2000 or 2/3 father

likewise apply same logic: if mother & son; if father & son; etc...

1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/stated) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
1 - 1/6 father (fixed/stated) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 23, 2012, 03:23:51 PM
Quote
My dear Mazhar,

Qur'an is for people with logic who understand basic IF ELSE statements which half your posts are gossip fantasies and therefore, instead of spamming this thread I strongly suggest you go back to that other pre-marital nonsense thread and argue about how you possess your housemaids and desire to do them a favor and marry them or whatever.

You again incorrectly read that thread. I am not saying "possess". Like there, I am also trying to dissolve the knot that you have developed erroneously about inheritance.

You perhaps are not aware that regulations are made in line with certain rules. You go to regulation, without even knowing what are the rules prescribed for implementing the regulation of inheritance. Therefore, I have first given the rules prescribed by Allah the Exalted before notifying the inheritance regulation. See the article critically.
There is not a single situation that is left for distribution of wealth of the deceased. The orphaned grand progeny is one of the nearest for the dying person. Your mathematics does not consider them, because you are denying the rules prescribed by Allah the Exalted. You are believing in some part of Qur'aan and denying some other part on the pretext of your so called logic.

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 23, 2012, 03:35:16 PM
Reply 185

Peace Noon,

There is a law point. You have not replied it instead repeated the same thing. Try to find legality for your presumptive distribution on the basis of logic.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: farida on August 23, 2012, 03:48:11 PM
Law books do not leave its provisions at the mercy of logic of people like the sniff of dogs. Unless it is described in the book that in such case 2/3 goes to father, saying so is mere presumption void of legality.

Yes they do in fact; there is a question of how would a reasonable wo/man have acted/reacted for most legal issues, including crimnal cases assessed by a jury on presumption of innocence until proven guilty according to ordinay person's logic and common sense.
Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 23, 2012, 04:00:36 PM
Reply 185

Peace Noon,

There is a law point. You have not replied it instead repeated the same thing. Try to find legality for your presumptive distribution on the basis of logic.

Peace Mazhar, replied to what exactly? You like posting and when ask to apply in a real case you have no answers.
Simple example -- person walking down the street has a heart-attack and dies leaves only heirs mother and father.

Please distribute according to Qur'an the deceased persons property worth $300,000? 
What you suggest; consult the dead; try revive back to live, ask what to do with 2/3?

4:11 ولابويه and to their parents (start case distribution to parents)

 لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان IF كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child)

 فان so IF (we are still on parents) لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents alive) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

basic logic if only parents: 1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 23, 2012, 04:11:49 PM
Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 02:45:22 PM
Law books do not leave its provisions at the mercy of logic of people like the sniff of dogs. Unless it is described in the book that in such case 2/3 goes to father, saying so is mere presumption void of legality.

Quote
Yes they do in fact; there is a question of how would a reasonable wo/man have acted/reacted for most legal issues, including crimnal cases assessed by a jury on presumption of innocence until proven guilty according to ordinay person's logic and common sense.
Salaam

These two quotes are not relevant to each other. The second is about assessment of evidence produced, not about the provisions of law given in the law book.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 23, 2012, 04:20:50 PM
These two quotes are not relevant to each other. The second is about assessment of evidence produced, not about the provisions of law given in the law book.

Clear evidence was already produced for you; not our fault or anyone's that you cannot grasp simple logic.

4:11 ولابويه and to their parents (start case distribution to parents and apply ان IF فان so IF logic)

 لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان IF كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child)

 فان so IF (we are still on parents) لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents alive) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

basic logic if only parents: 1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

$3000

$1000 or 1/3 mother
$2000 or 2/3 father

likewise apply same logic: if mother & son; if father & son; etc...

1 - 1/6 mother (fixed/stated) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
1 - 1/6 father (fixed/stated) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 23, 2012, 04:36:15 PM
Peace Mazhar, replied to what exactly? You like posting and when ask to apply in a real case you have no answers.
Simple example -- person walking down the street has a heart-attack and dies leaves only heirs mother and father.

Please distribute according to Qur'an the deceased persons property worth $300,000? 
What you suggest; consult the dead; try revive back to live, ask what to do with 2/3?

4:11 ولابويه and to their parents (start case distribution to parents)

 لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان IF كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child)

 فان so IF (we are still on parents) لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/child وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents alive) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

basic logic if only parents: 1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

Peace.

Proposition in above quote: A person died all of a sudden, who did not have a son and has living father and mother.

Qur'aan says 1/3rd of the inheritance after discharging his outstanding liabilities is the inalienable right of his mother-not subject to alteration whatever might be the ground realities, reduced to 1/6th if he has sisterd and brothers.

Allah the Exalted has not touched the remaining amount. Sudden death of a man does not imply that now there is none including Courts to decide about the portion regarding which the dead man had the authority to disburse according to his judgment amongst his father and other nearones.
People of family of good repute have the right to modify the Will of the deceased. Why your logic does not accept that they have also the right to decide in case of sudden death without Will?

Who would adjudge to accept the claims of people about outstanding liabilities of the dead man and pay them off from the left property?



   

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 23, 2012, 05:32:01 PM
Peace.

Proposition in above quote: A person died all of a sudden, who did not have a son and has living father and mother.

Qur'aan says 1/3rd of the inheritance after discharging his outstanding liabilities is the inalienable right of his mother-not subject to alteration whatever might be the ground realities, reduced to 1/6th if he has sisterd and brothers.

Allah the Exalted has not touched the remaining amount. Sudden death of a man does not imply that now there is none including Courts to decide about the portion regarding which the dead man had the authority to disburse according to his judgment amongst his father and other nearones.
People of family of good repute have the right to modify the Will of the deceased. Why your logic does not accept that they have also the right to decide in case of sudden death without Will?

Who would adjudge to accept the claims of people about outstanding liabilities of the dead man and pay them off from the left property?



 

Peace -- why are you mindlessly ranting and conjecturing?

Simple freaking case "ONLY" parents; no body else is left other than the "parents" -- distribute the freaking shares!

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 24, 2012, 04:05:09 AM
Peace -- why are you mindlessly ranting and conjecturing?

Conjecturing is this, to an extent of turning ears deaf to listen to the commands of Qur'aam.

Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 10:12:37 AM
But brother why you conveniently forget that in all the three Verses where Allah the Exalted assigns shares to particular persons in particular situations, the Bequest is the integral part at all places?

Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on August 05, 2012, 10:21:33 AM
Thereby, acording to your variable formula, if there is a Will, the Verses are not to be applied. Are you suggesting this?[/quote]

Quote of Noon

Quote
Peace, I forget nothing! 4:11 ... من from (means to subtract) بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment

1 - 100% (if left will to distribute the whole) =   0% amount to be distributed
1 -    0% (if deceased has left no will at all) = 100% amount to be distributed




كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَكُمُ الْمَوْتُ إِن تَرَكَ خَيْرًا  الْوَصِيَّةُ لِلْوَالِدَيْنِ وَالْأقْرَبِينَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُتَّقِينَ  

The Oral Bequest in favour of the Mother and Father and the relatively Near Blood relatives, in accordance with the well known norms, has been prescribed-decreed upon you at the point in time when the natural death has approached someone of you people, in case he is leaving behind worldly wealth.
This is mandatory-incumbent upon people who are cautious, heedful and mindful in reverence and fear of Allah the Exalted.
[2:180]

However, in case one apprehended inclination or evident injustice by a testator, thereby if he struck a correction amongst them-the beneficiaries and affected party, there shall at all be no blame upon him [since it is not substitution of the Will].
It is a fact that Allah the Exalted is oft the Forgiving-Overlooking, the fountain of Mercy. [2:182]

Man has left worldly wealth.

Left wealth - Outstanding liabilities of the deceased  = Divisible Inheritance

Divisible Inheritance  = 1

a) The shares cut and apportioned by Allah the Exalted from Divisible Inheritance = X
It is called by Allah فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ . Inalienable and unalterable part cut and apportioned by Allah the Exalted.

b) Divisible Inheritance - X = Y   الْوَصِيَّةُ

c) X + Y=1   فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ [/size]. + الْوَصِيَّةُ[/size
Allah the Exalted has covered all possible situations that could exist on ground relating to many many combinations of relatively nearer relatives. Relativity keep shifting to the remotest relationship step by step for which reason Comparitive Noun is used for الْوَصِيَّةُ.

The past conjecturists invented myth of Nasikh and Mansukh. You have gone one step further by declaring the Ayah giving Mandatory Shares apportioned by Allah the Exalted as redundant in case the man left a Will.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 06:19:58 AM
Conjecturing is this, to an extent of turning ears deaf to listen to the commands of Qur'aam.

Mazhar, first we have to determine if you have a functioning brain.

This is very simple and can get no simpler -- distribute inheritance:

case a. mother and father
mother gets 1/3 and father gets what? hint hint there is exactly 2/3 left!

case b. mother and son
mother gets 1/6 and son gets what? hint hint there is exactly 5/6 left!

Until you answer the above simple brain test everything that you write is irrelevant.
Now there are two options for people to consider in your stubbornness, no answer:

1. you are very dumb and a complete ignorant; probably not case
2. you are too proud to admit an error and on a pompous ego trip

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 24, 2012, 08:52:21 AM
Mazhar, first we have to determine if you have a functioning brain.

This is very simple and can get no simpler -- distribute inheritance:

case a. mother and father
mother gets 1/3 and father gets what? hint hint there is exactly 2/3 left!

case b. mother and son
mother gets 1/6 and son gets what? hint hint there is exactly 5/6 left!

Until you answer the above simple brain test everything that you write is irrelevant.
Now there are two options for people to consider in your stubbornness, no answer:

1. you are very dumb and a complete ignorant; probably not case
2. you are too proud to admit an error and on a pompous ego trip

Such stupid propositions can emerge only in a thoughtless brain.
You are presuming as if only three persons are living on Mars, and son died leaving behind a father and mother.
No person on Earth dies or will die without there being his الْأقْرَبِينَ and مَوَالِي to benefit from the left wealth, in order of nearness.

When logic assumes a style of stubborn idiocyncracy, people become blind in addition to deaf ears. Allah the Exalted is more knowledgable what situations can occur on ground. Find your proposition a nonsense thought in vacuum:

وَلِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مَوَالِيَ مِمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ عَقَدَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ
And We have declared relatives and under patronage persons, in order of relative nearness, for each excluding none deceased man and woman, to benefit partially in that which the Mother and Father, and relatively Nearer Relatives have left behind.
Take note about those whom your right hand had pledged responsibility, therefore, you people grant them their payable obligation-fortune in the inheritance. [R 4:33]
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 09:08:00 AM
Such stupid propositions can emerge only in a thoughtless brain.
You are presuming as if only three persons are living on Mars, and son died leaving behind a father and mother.

I'm not presuming and that is exactly the case; person leaves only inheritors:

case a. father and son   1 - 1/6 father   (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
case b. mother and son 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
case c. mother and father   1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)
case d. mother and brother 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 brother (variable/unstated)

Therefore, since you cannot answer simple questions or refuse to answer; we are left to decide...

1. if you are a complete idiot?
2. if you are a stubborn idiot?
3. if you are a human being?

Logic is not for you since you are wired different and only write needlessly long grammatical expositions of clear, short, precise verses, and instructions; evident when you could not comprehend a simple concept of an IF statement like...

?IF only parents give to the mother 1/3? then you asked from where the father gets 2/3?

Duh!

The difference between humans of intellect and the cattle can be described as such...

The dog pursues a scent and comes to a fork in the road.
The dog sniffs false the 1st path.
The dog will not reason IF NOT 1st THEN logically it's the 2nd!
The dog will need to sniff the 2nd as well to have it register!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 24, 2012, 09:28:59 AM
Reply 197

Quote
I'm not presuming and that is exactly the case; person leaves only inheritors:

case a. father and son   1 - 1/6 father   (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
case b. mother and son 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
case c. mother and father    1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)
case d. mother and brother  1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 brother (variable/unstated)

Therefore, since you cannot answer simple questions or refuse to answer; we are left to decide...

1. if you are a complete idiot?
2. if you are a stubborn idiot?
3. if you are a human being?



What about the Ayah quoted in Reply 196. Do you not accept it to be the Word of Allah?
For your information  الْأقْرَبِينَ and مَوَالِي both are Plural and in Arabic Waladain is dual not plural-two active participles who participated for the birth of their offspring.
Allah the Exalted says they are plural in number-three minimum and above who will benefit from inheritance of deceased but you are insisting they are only two in all your above imaginary cases a to d.

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 11:31:18 AM
Reply 197



What about the Ayah quoted in Reply 196. Do you not accept it to be the Word of Allah?
For your information  الْأقْرَبِينَ and مَوَالِي both are Plural and in Arabic Waladain is dual not plural-two active participles who participated for the birth of their offspring.
Allah the Exalted says they are plural in number-three minimum and above who will benefit from inheritance of deceased but you are insisting they are only two in all your above imaginary cases a to d.

What about it?

4:32 ولا and not تتمنوا covet ما what فضل favored الله The God به with it بعضكم some of you على over بعض some/others للرجال to the men نصيب a share مما from what اكتسبوا they earned وللنساء and to the women نصيب a share مما from what اكتسبن they earned واسالوا and ask الله The God من from فضله His bounty ان indeed الله The God كان is بكل in every شيء a thing عليما Knowing
4:33 ولكل and for all جعلنا We made موالي heirs مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت aqadat pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

It shows that you cannot read or comprehend a simple thing!

IF ONLY two relatives left -- do you think that is not possible?

case: mother and father 1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

Who is the third -- you, perhaps your housemaid, or the dog?


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 24, 2012, 12:15:48 PM
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 09:28:59 AM
Quote
Reply 197

What about the Ayah quoted in Reply 196. Do you not accept it to be the Word of Allah?
For your information  الْأقْرَبِينَ and مَوَالِي both are Plural and in Arabic Waladain is dual not plural-two active participles who participated for the birth of their offspring.
Allah the Exalted says they are plural in number-three minimum and above who will benefit from inheritance of deceased but you are insisting they are only two in all your above imaginary cases a to d.     Mazhar

What about it?

4:32 ولا and not تتمنوا covet ما what فضل favored الله The God به with it بعضكم some of you على over بعض some/others للرجال to the men نصيب a share مما from what اكتسبوا they earned وللنساء and to the women نصيب a share مما from what اكتسبن they earned واسالوا and ask الله The God من from فضله His bounty ان indeed الله The God كان is بكل in every شيء a thing عليما Knowing
4:33 ولكل and for all جعلنا We made موالي heirs مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت aqadat pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

It shows that you cannot read or comprehend a simple thing!

IF ONLY two relatives left -- do you think that is not possible?

case: mother and father 1 - 1/3 mother (fixed/stated) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)

Who is the third -- you, perhaps your housemaid, or the dog?

There is never contradiction about any thing in Qur'aan.

موالي Plural

 للرجال  Plural

للنساء Plural

لِّلرِّجَالِ نَصيِبٌ مِّمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ وَلِلنِّسَاءِ نَصِيبٌ مِّمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ مِمَّا قَلَّ مِنْهُ أَوْ كَثُرَ نَصِيبًا مَّفْرُوضًا

There will never be two, always موالي Plural, three and more. Is it not a simple thing?

In view of Allah the Exalted saying there are موالي plural, your assumption is conjectural

Quote
I'm not presuming and that is exactly the case; person leaves only inheritors:

case a. father and son   1 - 1/6 father   (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
case b. mother and son 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 son (variable/unstated)
case c. mother and father    1 - 1/3 mother (fixed) = 2/3 father (variable/unstated)
case d. mother and brother 1 - 1/6 mother (fixed) = 5/6 brother (variable/unstated)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 09:28:59 AM
There will never be two, always موالي Plural, three and more. Is it not a simple thing?

You are clueless! Think before you post! According to you it's impossible for there to be only two heirs?




Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 24, 2012, 03:05:46 PM
You are clueless! Think before you post! According to you it's impossible for there to be only two heirs?

Quote authority--only of Qur'aan.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 03:48:21 PM
Quote authority--only of Qur'aan.

You confusing verses addressing plural three or more, saying two is not applicable or possible is ridiculous!
We need only find case anywhere in the world two heirs to prove your nonsense incorrect reading of verse.

4:11 ... وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

You are done! Only two heirs mentioned!

4:33 ولكل and for all جعلنا We made موالي mawāliya heirs
19:5 واني and indeed I خفت fear الموالي al-mawāliya the heirs من from ورائي after me

Likewise, he was praying for what; three or more heirs or will not one suffice?

I'll advise once again unless you have something to contribute don't spam this thread with nonsense.

People are still waiting for you to distribute....

case: mother and father
case: mother and son


If you cannot or are too stubborn and refuse perhaps I'll have my little 10 year old nephew teach you.


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 24, 2012, 05:12:55 PM
Quote
You confusing verses addressing plural three or more, saying two is not applicable or possible is ridiculous!
We need only find case anywhere in the world two heirs to prove your nonsense incorrect reading of verse.

4:11 ... وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

You are done! Only two heirs mentioned!


What an evidence!!! Only one third, who will get the remaining two third?

Now again read the verdict of Allah the Exalted and ask your nephew if he knows Arabic to make you understand.

وَلِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مَوَالِيَ مِمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ عَقَدَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ


If he knows even elementary Arabic, he might tell you something about كُل that this indefinite noun knows no exception in all the population of the world.

Every person with no exception has مَوَالِي plural--three and above.

Why are you defying the declarative statement of Allah the Exalted only to stick to your nonsense matehmatical gimmicks?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 06:39:03 PM
What an evidence!!! Only one third, who will get the remaining two third?

You're babbling!

Only idiots will not understand if two people and if one gets 1/3 the other gets remaining 2/3!

How you can insert Allah in your every other post to such nonsense and stupidity is obscene!

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 24, 2012, 07:12:34 PM
Thread is distributing shares according to Qur'an; either provide alternative distributions or stop spamming!

Here are all combinations for reference; obviously sole inheritor gets the whole, no need for arbitration laws.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)...

son/s + daughter/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 ... فان so if كن kunna/are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha (2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kanat/is (feminine) واحده one فلها so to her النصف the half

 ولابويه and to their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child/born)

 فان so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child born وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

 فان so if كان kana/is (masculine singular) له to person اخوه ikh'wat (if male sibling/brother) فلامه so to his mother السدس the sixth

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصي have made بها in it او or دين judgmentاباؤكم your fathers وابناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know ايهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضه obligation من from الله The God ان indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

1 father + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/3 mother + 2/3 father = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 brother/s = 1

1/6 mother/father + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 mother/father = 1
2 daughters + mother/father equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 mother/father = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
2 daughters + mother + father all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 kalalah fatherless and spouseless no son (sibling/s variable/unstated)
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (mother + sister/s) = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + mother + sister/s (all share equally) = 1
2 daughters + brother/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1
2 daughters + brother/s + sister/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (mother + sister/s) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 sister/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + sister/s = 1
2 daughters + brother/s = 1
2 daughters + sister/s + brother/s = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 sister/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

4:12 ولكم and to you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouse?s ان if لم not يكن was لهن to them ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لهن to them ولد walad/son (if is male child/born) فلكم so to you الربع the fourth

 مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصين they made بها in it او or دين judgment

 ولهن and to them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left ان if لم not يكن was لكم to you ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لكم to you ولد walad/son (i.e. if to person male child/born) فلهن falahunna/so to them الثمن the eight

 مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصيه a will توصون you made بها in it او or دين judgment...

1 spouse + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 son/s = 1
1/8 wife    + 7/8 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 spouse = 1
2 daughters + spouse equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 spouse = 1

1/2 husband + 1/2 mother/father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/4 mother/father = 1

1/2 husband + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/8 mother + 3/8 father = 1

1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife    + 17/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother/father + 1/4 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother/father + spouse all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother/father + 1/6 spouse = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/8 wife    + 13/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/6 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother + father + spouse (share equally) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/9 mother + 1/9 father + 1/9 spouse = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife + 17/24 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 children mixed (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:12 kalalah fatherless and spouseless has son; sibling/s fixed at 1/6 or 1/3
4:12 .. وان and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلاله kalalah (no crown/head of household; fatherless and spouseless) او or امراه woman

 وله and has اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth

 فان so if كانوا they were اكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصى is recommended بها in it او or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصيه a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 son/s = 1

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 son/s = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:176 al-kalalah the fatherless and spouseless no offspring/child born
4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah (the fatherless and spouseless; deceased left no crown/head of household)

 ان if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child وله and has اخت sister فلها so to her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it ان if لم not يكن was لها to her ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كانتا they were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the third twice (2/3) مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

 يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you ان lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing

1 sister  1/2 + 1/2 mother = 1
2 sisters 2/3 (1/3 each) + 1/3 mother = 1
3 sisters (1/4 each x 3) + 1/4 mother = 1

sister/s + brother/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 (sister/s + brother/s) distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 25, 2012, 03:29:29 AM
Again mathematical gimmick without quoting legal provision.
You do not attend the declarative statement of Allah the Exalted and start calling its mention as  nonsense and stupidity obscene. Explore why such verdict giving Ayah is causing irritation to you---  because they compel you to accept your stupidity of arriving at what you repeatedly reproduce mathematics but selfish ego does not permit it---hence irritation and outburst.

Noon,  sincerely advise you to consult someone for psycho checkup before it is too late like 19 gimmicks of Rashad Khalifa that veiled his intellect.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 25, 2012, 03:42:33 AM

Let me make a final attempt to try dissolving clot that got developed in your brain on this issue

وَلِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مَوَالِيَ مِمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ عَقَدَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ


Mind it this declaration is about the INHERITANCE left behind by the father and mother and near relatives.

Every person with no exception has مَوَالِي plural--three and above. And look at the beauty of narration in Qur'aan that it has not left mention of those who must be taken into consideration while distributing that part of wealth left to the discretionary Will of the dying wealthy person. The possibility of ignoring who are otherwise weakest within the ambit of مَوَالِي is mentioned seperately after it.


فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ This is Imperative-a command of Allah the Exalted. Your mathematic equation lengthy gimmick forget to give them their due share.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 25, 2012, 05:37:27 AM
Noon,  sincerely advise you to consult someone for psycho checkup before it is too late like 19 gimmicks of Rashad Khalifa that veiled his intellect.

Mazhar, you are a moron! Your reading is wrong! We know these heirs exist!

mother, father
mother, son
mother, daughter
mother, sister
mother, brother
mother, spouse
father, son
father, daughter
father, sister
father, brother
father, spouse
son, daughter
son, sister
son, brother

Until you answer the above and admit your error everything you write on any subject will dismissed as a moronic rant!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 25, 2012, 05:52:48 AM
Quote
Mazhar, you are a moron! Your reading is wrong! We know these heirs exist!

Who denies their existance? The only thing that you are not allowing to enter your brain is that they exist not in isolation somewhere unknown place, but exist alongwith others becoming plural beneficiaries as is declared by Allah the Exalted.

You are ignoring Verses of Qur'aan deliberately as if they were not the part of speech on Inheritance. Rk had also done this while juggling with digits.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 25, 2012, 06:07:31 AM
Who denies their existance?

You are! Totally misreading the verse attributing your stupidity and ignorance to Qur'an!

Now distribute below inheritance admit your error or you can choose to run away like a coward!

mother, father
mother, son
mother, daughter
mother, sister
mother, brother
mother, wife
mother, husband
father, son
father, daughter
father, sister
father, brother
father, wife
father, husband
son, daughter
son, sister
son, brother
son, wife
son, husband
daughter, sister
daughter, brother
daughter, wife
daughter, husband
sister, brother
sister, wife
sister, husband
brother, wife
brother, husband
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 25, 2012, 03:11:26 PM
Quote
You are! Totally misreading the verse attributing your stupidity and ignorance to Qur'an!

If I am misreading it, you please educate me how you correctly read it and share your knowledgable understanding of its perception.

وَلِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مَوَالِيَ مِمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ عَقَدَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ


I will be obliged.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 25, 2012, 08:32:36 PM
If I am misreading it, you please educate me how you correctly read it and share your knowledgable understanding of its perception.

وَلِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مَوَالِيَ مِمَّا تَرَكَ الْوَالِدَانِ وَالْأَقْرَبُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ عَقَدَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَآتُوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ


I will be obliged.

OK I'll be happy to...

4:33 ولكل and for all (i.e. each individual) جعلنا We made موالي heirs (i.e. eligible to inherit) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

The above is simply stating that each individual is eligible to inherit from what left their parents, and their close relatives (i.e. their children, brothers, sisters); their spouse, etc. and does not say or suggest as you incorrectly inferred earlier that every deceased person will have minimum of three heirs.

It is a known fact that in reality there are numerous people who died or who are going to die will leave no heirs, only one heir, or only two heirs ? simply look at those around you Mazhar including most probably yourself. Therefore, your reading of the verse is incorrect, contradicts reality, and is easily proven false.

Also consider the request made and granted ...
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=19&verse=5


Peace!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 03:38:38 AM
OK I'll be happy to...

4:33 ولكل and for all (i.e. each individual) جعلنا We made موالي heirs (i.e. eligible to inherit) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share  ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

The above is simply stating that each individual is eligible to inherit from what left their parents, and their close relatives (i.e. their children, brothers, sisters); their spouse, etc. and does not say or suggest as you incorrectly inferred earlier that every deceased person will have minimum of three heirs.

It is a known fact that in reality there are numerous people who died or who are going to die will leave no heirs, only one heir, or only two heirs ? simply look at those around you Mazhar including most probably yourself. Therefore, your reading of the verse is incorrect, contradicts reality, and is easily proven false.

Also consider the request made and granted ...
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=19&verse=5


Peace!

The translation and inference  do not correspond to each other. In translation you say, "for all individuals We made heirs". And heirs are those who are eligible to inherit.
In your translation, "each" individual and "heirs" are two different entities.

In the inference you say each individual is eligible to inherit.

Please reconcile.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2012, 08:21:55 AM
The translation and inference  do not correspond to each other. In translation you say, "for all individuals We made heirs". And heirs are those who are eligible to inherit.
In your translation, "each" individual and "heirs" are two different entities.

In the inference you say each individual is eligible to inherit.

Please reconcile.

I see, fixated on grammar invented 100 years ago not reading context and avoiding contradictions?

6:132 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they did (plural) وما and not ربك your Lord بغافل unaware عما of what يعملون they did (plural)

4:33 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs (plural) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them (plural) نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

Once again individuals are made/appointed/entitled as heirs from what left their parents, etc. and not as you infer/read that each individual is guaranteed three or more heirs which is easily proven a false reading and a contradiction simply by finding only one case since the beginning of humanity (~ 57 million people leave us each year or ~155,000 each day) where someone died and left less than three heirs or simply examine each kalalah case ...

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 09:58:43 AM
Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on Today at 03:38:38 AM
The translation and inference do not correspond to each other. In translation you say, "for all individuals We made heirs". And heirs are those who are eligible to inherit.
In your translation, "each" individual and "heirs" are two different entities.

In the inference you say each individual is eligible to inherit.

Please reconcile.


I see, fixated on grammar invented 100 years ago not reading context and avoiding contradictions?

6:132 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they did (plural) وما and not ربك your Lord بغافل unaware عما of what يعملون they did (plural)

4:33 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs (plural) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them (plural) نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

Once again individuals are made/appointed/entitled as heirs from what left their parents, etc. and not as you infer/read that each individual is guaranteed three or more heirs which is easily proven a false reading and a contradiction simply by finding only one case since the beginning of humanity (~ 57 million people leave us each year or ~155,000 each day) where someone died and left less than three heirs or simply examine each kalalah case ...

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah

Just yesterday you said this:

Quote
OK I'll be happy to...

4:33 ولكل and for all (i.e. each individual) جعلنا We made موالي heirs (i.e. eligible to inherit) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

The above is simply stating that each individual is eligible to inherit from what left their parents, and their close relatives (i.e. their children, brothers, sisters); their spouse, etc. and does not say or suggest as you incorrectly inferred earlier that every deceased person will have minimum of three heirs.
English preposition "for" which you used yesterday, correctly for Arabic preposition "Li", but today you have replaced it by "to". Are both prepositions "synonym"?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2012, 10:50:14 AM
Please reconcile.


Just yesterday you said this:
English preposition "for" which you used yesterday, correctly for Arabic preposition "Li", but today you have replaced it by "to". Are both prepositions "synonym"?

Peace Mazhar,

Regardless if using to/for, each/all does not change the basic meaning or the fact that your reading is erroneous.

I'm in process of carefully studying each word which there are ~ 77,797 in Qur'an to find the best non-contradicting and consistent meaning unlike most translations/translators who are careless, too lazy, inconsistent, contradictory, and often insert their own bizarre fetishes like you inserting housemaids.

It's a work in progress and today after having a look at all usages decided best/closest to render as such.

4:33 ولكل and to each جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

Use "for" if you like...

2:148 ولكل and to/for each
6:132 ولكل and to/for each
7:34 ولكل and to/for each امه tribe/nation اجل a term
10:47 ولكل and to/for each امه tribe/nation رسول a messenger
13:7  ولكل and to/for each قوم community هاد a guide
22:34 ولكل and to/for each امه tribe/nation جعلنا We made/appointed منسكا a rite
46:19 ولكل and to/for each درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they have done

Now back to the topic of distributions; do you have other than what was posted for these combinations or want to let people decide which is clear, precise, and accurate according to Qur'an: IF case THEN distribute exactly?

mother, father
mother, son
mother, daughter
mother, sister
mother, brother
mother, wife
mother, husband
father, son
father, daughter
father, sister
father, brother
father, wife
father, husband
son, daughter
son, sister
son, brother
son, wife
son, husband
daughter, sister
daughter, brother
daughter, wife
daughter, husband
sister, brother
sister, wife
sister, husband
brother, wife
brother, husband

Thread is distributing shares according to Qur'an; either provide alternative distributions or stop spamming!

Here are all combinations for reference; obviously sole inheritor gets the whole, no need for arbitration laws.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)...

son/s + daughter/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 ... فان so if كن kunna/are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha (2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kanat/is (feminine) واحده one فلها so to her النصف the half

 ولابويه and to their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child/born)

 فان so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child born وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

 فان so if كان kana/is (masculine singular) له to person اخوه ikh'wat (if male sibling/brother) فلامه so to his mother السدس the sixth

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصي have made بها in it او or دين judgmentاباؤكم your fathers وابناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know ايهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضه obligation من from الله The God ان indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

1 father + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/3 mother + 2/3 father = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 brother/s = 1

1/6 mother/father + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 mother/father = 1
2 daughters + mother/father equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 mother/father = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
2 daughters + mother + father all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 kalalah fatherless and spouseless no son (sibling/s variable/unstated)
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (mother + sister/s) = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + mother + sister/s (all share equally) = 1
2 daughters + brother/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1
2 daughters + brother/s + sister/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (mother + sister/s) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 sister/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + sister/s = 1
2 daughters + brother/s = 1
2 daughters + sister/s + brother/s = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 sister/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

4:12 ولكم and to you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouse?s ان if لم not يكن was لهن to them ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لهن to them ولد walad/son (if is male child/born) فلكم so to you الربع the fourth

 مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصين they made بها in it او or دين judgment

 ولهن and to them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left ان if لم not يكن was لكم to you ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لكم to you ولد walad/son (i.e. if to person male child/born) فلهن falahunna/so to them الثمن the eight

 مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصيه a will توصون you made بها in it او or دين judgment...

1 spouse + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 son/s = 1
1/8 wife    + 7/8 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 spouse = 1
2 daughters + spouse equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 spouse = 1

1/2 husband + 1/2 mother/father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/4 mother/father = 1

1/2 husband + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/8 mother + 3/8 father = 1

1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife    + 17/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother/father + 1/4 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother/father + spouse all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother/father + 1/6 spouse = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/8 wife    + 13/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/6 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother + father + spouse (share equally) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/9 mother + 1/9 father + 1/9 spouse = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife + 17/24 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 children mixed (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:12 kalalah fatherless and spouseless has son; sibling/s fixed at 1/6 or 1/3
4:12 .. وان and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلاله kalalah (no crown/head of household; fatherless and spouseless) او or امراه woman

 وله and has اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth

 فان so if كانوا they were اكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصى is recommended بها in it او or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصيه a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 son/s = 1

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 son/s = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:176 al-kalalah the fatherless and spouseless no offspring/child born
4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah (the fatherless and spouseless; deceased left no crown/head of household)

 ان if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child وله and has اخت sister فلها so to her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it ان if لم not يكن was لها to her ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كانتا they were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the third twice (2/3) مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

 يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you ان lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing

1 sister  1/2 + 1/2 mother = 1
2 sisters 2/3 (1/3 each) + 1/3 mother = 1
3 sisters (1/4 each x 3) + 1/4 mother = 1

sister/s + brother/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 (sister/s + brother/s) distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 11:59:15 AM
Quote
It's a work in progress and today after having a look at all usages decided best/closest to render as such.

4:33 ولكل and to each جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

Use "for" if you like...

2:148 ولكل and to/for each
6:132 ولكل and to/for each
7:34 ولكل and to/for each امه tribe/nation اجل a term
10:47 ولكل and to/for each امه tribe/nation رسول a messenger
13:7  ولكل and to/for each قوم community هاد a guide
22:34 ولكل and to/for each امه tribe/nation جعلنا We made/appointed منسكا a rite
46:19 ولكل and to/for each درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they have done

Did you notice some difference between the two red. Do you know what is the difference between both?
And do you know the reason why at some places there is Tanween while at others there is only one vowel sign?

If you do not know such elementary things about Arabic your criticism of all the translators seems ridiculous boast.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 12:29:25 PM
Quote
4:33 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs  (plural) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them (plural) نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

Mind it, leave Arabic aside, your English even after switching over from "for" to "to" has not resolved the contradiction in your translation and your inferencem which I pointed out to you.

Quote
The translation and inference do not correspond to each other. In translation you say, "for all individuals We made heirs". And heirs are those who are eligible to inherit.
In your translation, "each" individual and "heirs" are two different entities.

In the inference you say each individual is eligible to inherit.

Read your sentence carefully:

Quote
and to each(individual; noun) We made/appointed heirs

If you know what the preposition "to" means you will realize the blunder in your understanding.

In the sentence "each" with prep "to" is a different entity and "appointed heirs" are different entities.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2012, 12:35:47 PM
Did you notice some difference between the two red. Do you know what is the difference between both?
And do you know the reason why at some places there is Tanween while at others there is only one vowel sign?

If you do not know such elementary things about Arabic your criticism of all the translators seems ridiculous boast.

Mazhar -- you were clearly proven wrong on this topic and instead of correcting yourself and apologizing for wasting my time and spamming this thread you continue being a hard-head needing to have the last word and contributing absolutely nothing to this thread/topic and now you are grasping for anything to redeem yourself including debating if to use "to/for" which I've already told you use "for" if you like, it makes little difference.

Now go away! Play with housemaid or whatever.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 01:52:51 PM
Mazhar -- you were clearly proven wrong on this topic and instead of correcting yourself and apologizing for wasting my time and spamming this thread you continue being a hard-head needing to have the last word and contributing absolutely nothing to this thread/topic and now you are grasping for anything to redeem yourself including debating if to use "to/for" which I've already told you use "for" if you like, it makes little difference.

Now go away! Play with housemaid or whatever.

I know whenever you do not have an argument, you say like this or start reproducing a page length mathematical equations.

However, I will give you more points to ponder and realize how much you keep missing while jumping to conclusions and start thinking to have become the only scholar on the subject.

Do you know something about time-line? And do you know time-line in linquistics has a role to determine and understand a text when time adverbs are used therein?

Have you found any time adverb in Inheritance discourse? Did you give a second to understand it?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote
Did you notice some difference between the two red. Do you know what is the difference between both?
And do you know the reason why at some places there is Tanween while at others there is only one vowel sign?

If you do not know such elementary things about Arabic your criticism of all the translators seems ridiculous boast.

Take your time. Study further and come back if you have understood the difference. Believe me it will make you to think for some other alternative than switching "for" to "to" to make the verse serve your purpose because it exposed you instead of helping support your inference.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2012, 02:51:53 PM
Take your time. Study further and come back if you have understood the difference. Believe me it will make you to think for some other alternative than switching "for" to "to" to make the verse serve your purpose because it exposed you instead of helping support your inference.

OK this is a thread on inheritance and if you want to open a thread on  housemaids or to/for go right ahead.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 26, 2012, 03:12:21 PM
OK this is a thread on inheritance and if you want to open a thread on  housemaids or to/for go right ahead.

Yes this is about Inheritance. The points raised are in respect of your semblence verses about "to" and "for". But they were different. The question is relevant about that. Please come back with an answer.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2012, 03:33:14 PM
Yes this is about Inheritance. The points raised are in respect of your semblence verses about "to" and "for". But they were different. The question is relevant about that. Please come back with an answer.

OK you're free to choose whichever you like; "to" comes out better and using "for" still does not help you...

45:7 ويل woe لكل to each افاك liar اثيم flagrant
4:11 . ولابويه and to their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما of them السدس the sixth

4:33 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs (plural) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness

2:148 ولكل and to each (individual; noun)
6:132 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they have done (plural) وما and not ربك your Lord بغافل unaware عما of what يعملون they have done (plural)
7:34 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) امه tribe/nation اجل a term
10:47 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) امه tribe/nation رسول a messenger
13:7 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) قوم community هاد a guide
22:34 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) امه tribe/nation جعلنا We made/appointed منسكا a rite
46:19 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they have done (plural)

Now your turn; I'll ask once again -- do not waste my time and like a coward avoid, divert,  and run away...

Individuals are made/appointed/entitled as heirs from what left their parents, etc. and not as you infer/read that each individual is guaranteed three or more heirs which is easily proven a false reading and a contradiction simply by finding only one case since the beginning of humanity (~ 57 million people leave us each year or ~155,000 each day) where someone died and left less than three heirs or simply examine each kalalah case ...

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah

Now distribute the shares or go away!

mother, father
mother, son
mother, daughter
mother, sister
mother, brother
mother, wife
mother, husband
father, son
father, daughter
father, sister
father, brother
father, wife
father, husband
son, daughter
son, sister
son, brother
son, wife
son, husband
daughter, sister
daughter, brother
daughter, wife
daughter, husband
sister, brother
sister, wife
sister, husband
brother, wife
brother, husband
   

mother, father, son
mother, father, daughter
mother, father, wife
mother, father, husband
mother, father, sister
mother, father, brother
mother, son, daughter
mother, son, wife
mother, son, husband
mother, son, sister
mother, son, brother
mother, daughter, wife
mother, daughter, husband
mother, daughter, sister
mother, daughter, brother
mother, wife, sister
mother, wife, brother
mother, husband, sister
mother, husband, brother
mother, sister, brother
father, son, daughter
father, son, wife
father, son, husband
father, son, sister
father, son, brother
father, daughter, wife
father, daughter, husband
father, daughter, sister
father, daughter, brother
father, wife, sister
father, wife, brother
father, husband, sister
father, husband, brother
father, sister, brother
son, daughter, wife
son, daughter, husband
son, daughter, sister
son, daughter, brother
son, wife, sister
son, wife, brother
son, husband, sister
son, husband, brother
son, sister, brother
daughter, wife, sister
daughter, wife, brother
daughter, husband, sister
daughter, husband, brother
daughter, sister, brother
wife, sister, brother
husband, sister, brother
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 27, 2012, 03:00:59 AM
Reply 218

Did you notice some difference between the two red. Do you know what is the difference between both?
And do you know the reason why at some places there is Tanween while at others there is only one vowel sign?

If you do not know such elementary things about Arabic your criticism of all the translators seems ridiculous boast.

Remaining truthful to habit, you again repeated the Ayah and lengthy math page without using brain to attend to question.

Quote
45:7 ويل woe لكل to each افاك liar اثيم flagrant
4:11 . ولابويه and to their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما of them السدس the sixth

4:33 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) جعلنا We made/appointed موالي heirs (plural) مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذين and the ones who عقدت pledged ايمانكم your right hands فآتوهم so give them نصيبهم their share ان indeed الله The God كان is على over كل each شيء a thing شهيدا Witness


45:7   لِّكُلِّ

4:33 لِكُلٍّ

Do you see the difference? Vowel signs is double in 4:33, in others it is single?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 27, 2012, 03:11:29 AM
These are your trasnslation and then explanation

Quote
and to each(individual; noun) We made/appointed heirs

Quote
Individuals are made/appointed/entitled as heirs from what left their parents, etc. and not as you infer/read that each individual is guaranteed three or more heirs which is easily proven a false reading

See both. Why are you making mockery of yourself that you do not know even simple English?

Your translation says

"We have appointed heirs to each individual".

 Get out of your madness to know what is there in the Verses about inheritance.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 27, 2012, 04:24:52 AM
Get out of your madness to know what is there in the Verses about inheritance.

Mazhar -- I asked you to stay on topic, do not spam this thread; instead you post useless information.

You said that Allah said that each person will have three or more heirs -- that is proven false and a lie!








Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 27, 2012, 05:13:22 AM
Mazhar -- I asked you to stay on topic, do not spam this thread; instead you post useless information.

You said that Allah said that each person will have three or more heirs -- that is proven false and a lie!

Your own translation says they are more than two. Reconcile your translation and respond to basic contradictions of yours.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 27, 2012, 05:43:21 AM
Your own translation says they are more than two. Reconcile your translation and respond to basic contradictions of yours.

No it does not -- each individual is heir. Only way translation cannot contradict reality. it's same as...

6:132 ولكل and to each (individual; noun) درجات degrees مما from what عملوا they have done (plural; i.e. each individual) وما and not ربك your Lord بغافل unaware عما of what يعملون they have done (plural; i.e. each individual)

In summary, like saying We made you each heirs entitled to a share from what left their parents, etc. not as you claim that Qur'an contradicts reality and each will have at least three heirs -- that is ridiculous!

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 27, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
Quote
No it does not -- each individual is heir.

It is time to take admission in KG in some good English medium school.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 27, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
My dear Noon,

Peace

If you are really interested to get complete picture and perception of Inheritance discourse, I have simplified the Article, best trying to make it reader friendly but not allowing him to float on the surface of the text, rather keep using his own intellect at every parargraph to grasp it before moving to next and agree or prove it wrong, in any sense, language, grammar, context, concordance.

The points towards I have been trying to draw your attention, like tanween and time-line---use of time adverb I have covered therein.

Allah the Exalted has covered all, even if there are hundreds of ground situations, in just five sub classifications. You can have hundreds of mathematical equations by just referring to those 5 classifications.

You might also notice the beauty of succintness by superb choice of words in the Ayah which could cover multiple situations. Please do pay attention to the meanings and perceptions by noticing what type of a word is it.

Daughter not Son is the central theme of Inheritance. It is incumbent upon death expecting wealthy person to bequeath for the Mother and Father; and nearer relatives. (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 27, 2012, 07:48:10 PM
My dear Mazhar,

You are a dumb OX devoid of simple logic and you wrote stupid article.
You are clueless on simple distributions; you run away from questions.
You distribute shares to son when it clearly says 2/3 is to females only.

Qur'an is for people of intelligence not for stupid cattle without a brain!

Goodbye!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 28, 2012, 02:36:32 AM
Noon,

Do open it and read it carefully. Don't be childish, take some time reading it, and then come back if you find objection on any para. Just quote para No. and what you say about it.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 28, 2012, 07:28:29 PM
Noon,

Do open it and read it carefully. Don't be childish, take some time reading it, and then come back if you find objection on any para. Just quote para No. and what you say about it.

No one should waste time reading your stupid stuff. Stop spamming/polluting this thread.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 29, 2012, 03:20:17 AM
Quote
No one should waste time reading your stupid stuff. Stop spamming/polluting this thread.


Allah the Exalted has covered all, even if there are hundreds of ground situations, in just five sub classifications. You can have hundreds of mathematical equations by just referring to those 5 classifications.

Daughter not Son is the central theme of Inheritance. It is incumbent upon death expecting wealthy person to bequeath for the Mother and Father; and nearer relatives. (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)
[/quote]

Admin: attention please! Placing of this thread under sticky by some was a mere reflexive fascination by lengthy table. It should be a cause of concern for the Administrator of the Forum as many visitors will think that this ridiculous thread by a person who does not know ABC of Arabic, even its vowel, has the approval and agreement of Free Minds. Should we give impression to general public how poor is Free Minds in Arabic and yet claims "Qur'aan alone"!!!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 29, 2012, 06:01:32 AM
Admn: Pl look into this:

Quote
Yes this topic should be a sticky; it teaches logic, how to read Qur'an using cross-reference and context to extrapolate certain words and to take the best non-contradicting meaning.

He translates one word at two places in the same Ayah which are identical in all aspects, both in nominative case and absolute state [he does not know what is the meaning and difference between case and state], once masculine son, and then says it is genderless--any gender?

Is this the way we on this widely visited forum interpret Qur'aan making even mockery of word "logic"?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 29, 2012, 06:19:06 AM
Allah the Exalted has covered all, even if there are hundreds of ground situations, in just five sub classifications.
Yes, I've answered all combinations while you write stupid rants, are a coward, and don't answer questions.

Thread is distributing shares according to Qur'an; either provide alternative distributions or stop spamming!

Here are all combinations for reference; obviously sole inheritor gets the whole, no need for arbitration laws.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)...

son/s + daughter/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 ... فان so if كن kunna/are نساء nisa فوق above اثنتين two فلهن falahunna/so to them (feminine plural) ثلثا thulutha (2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kanat/is (feminine) واحده one فلها so to her النصف the half

 ولابويه and to their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kana/is (masculine) له to person ولد walad/son (if male child/born)

 فان so if لم not يكن was له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child born وورثه and heirs ابواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

 فان so if كان kana/is (masculine singular) له to person اخوه ikh'wat (if male sibling/brother) فلامه so to his mother السدس the sixth

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصي have made بها in it او or دين judgmentاباؤكم your fathers وابناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know ايهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضه obligation من from الله The God ان indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

1 father + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/3 mother + 2/3 father = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 brother/s = 1

1/6 mother/father + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 mother/father = 1
2 daughters + mother/father equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 mother/father = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
2 daughters + mother + father all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:11 kalalah fatherless and spouseless no son (sibling/s variable/unstated)
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (mother + sister/s) = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + mother + sister/s (all share equally) = 1
2 daughters + brother/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1
2 daughters + brother/s + sister/s 5/6 share equally + 1/6 mother = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (mother + sister/s) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 sister/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 brother/s = 1
1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

2 daughters + sister/s = 1
2 daughters + brother/s = 1
2 daughters + sister/s + brother/s = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 sister/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

4:12 ولكم and to you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouse?s ان if لم not يكن was لهن to them ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لهن to them ولد walad/son (if is male child/born) فلكم so to you الربع the fourth

 مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصين they made بها in it او or دين judgment

 ولهن and to them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left ان if لم not يكن was لكم to you ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كان kana is (masculine) لكم to you ولد walad/son (i.e. if to person male child/born) فلهن falahunna/so to them الثمن the eight

 مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصيه a will توصون you made بها in it او or دين judgment...

1 spouse + 0 sibling/s = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 son/s = 1
1/8 wife    + 7/8 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/2 spouse = 1
2 daughters + spouse equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 spouse = 1

1/2 husband + 1/2 mother/father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/4 mother/father = 1

1/2 husband + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
1/4 wife    + 3/8 mother + 3/8 father = 1

1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife    + 17/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/4 mother/father + 1/4 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother/father + spouse all equally = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother/father + 1/6 spouse = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12  son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/8 wife    + 13/24 son/s = 1

1 daughter  1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/6 spouse = 1
2 daughters + mother + father + spouse (share equally) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/9 mother + 1/9 father + 1/9 spouse = 1

1/4 husband + 3/4 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
 
1/6 mother/father + 1/4 husband + 7/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife + 17/24 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 children mixed (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:12 kalalah fatherless and spouseless has son; sibling/s fixed at 1/6 or 1/3
4:12 .. وان and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلاله kalalah (no crown/head of household; fatherless and spouseless) او or امراه woman

 وله and has اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth

 فان so if كانوا they were اكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third

 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصى is recommended بها in it او or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصيه a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 son/s = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 son/s = 1

1/6 sister/brother + 5/6 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 son/s = 1

1/6 mother + 1/6 sister/brother + 2/3 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 1/3 sisters/brothers/(sister/s + brother/s) + 1/2 (daughter/s + son/s) 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

4:176 al-kalalah the fatherless and spouseless no offspring/child born
4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلاله al-kalalah (the fatherless and spouseless; deceased left no crown/head of household)

 ان if امرؤ person هلك died ليس is not له to person ولد waladun/offspring/child وله and has اخت sister فلها so to her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it ان if لم not يكن was لها to her ولد waladun/offspring/child

 فان so if كانتا they were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the third twice (2/3) مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

 يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you ان lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing

1 sister  1/2 + 1/2 mother = 1
2 sisters 2/3 (1/3 each) + 1/3 mother = 1
3 sisters (1/4 each x 3) + 1/4 mother = 1

sister/s + brother/s distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1
1/6 mother + 5/6 (sister/s + brother/s) distribute at 2:1 ratio male to female = 1

Admin: attention please!

Admin: this clueless person is hijacking/spamming this thread to promote his stupid article -- can we do something?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on August 29, 2012, 10:42:43 AM

Admin: this clueless person is hijacking/spamming this thread to promote his stupid article -- can we do something?

Quote
You are a dumb OX  devoid of simple logic and you wrote stupid article. Noon


Learned Noon writes in his Post 127
Quote
Peace brother Mazhar,

Well written with slight miss-reading of solitary son and applying "to the male like share the two females" and the females in 4:11 are alone, otherwise numerous cases math does not add.

The most interesting part of the story is that after having read his premises and responses to few others, I wanted to get him out of his trap and self styled trick with the word وَلَدٌ which he now called "slight mis-reading of solitary son" in my article. I suggested him that it can be child. He scholarly corrected me earning my thanks.

Quote
Post 86. Sorry Noon, I forgot to acknowledge your point regarding Waladun as singular son  for reason of Kana. Yes, there it means only son because of masculine deficient verb and it being its Ism-Noun subject.

Noon naively reponded in Post 87

Quote
Thank you Mazhar, that was what makes all the calculations work and rather amazing logic.

I got worried. He was behaving like late Rashad Khalifa. I kept confronting him to take him out of that state with simple and evident facts about the Ayaat. But it did not work since he starts reproducing his first lenghty page.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 29, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
Learned Noon writes in his Post 127

Quote
Well written with slight miss-reading of solitary son and applying "to the male like share the two females" and the females in 4:11 are alone, otherwise numerous cases math does not add.

Yeah it was fine until you got to the actual verses. I asked you to distribute/apply then you went on a STUPID rant!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 07, 2012, 04:47:02 PM
Lildhakar mithlu haz el unthayain, (to the male like the portion of the two females)

I do not understand that as meaning he gets double of each of them, but that he gets the same as each of them. His portion is like the portion of the two females, who have already been aportionned their portion so as to aportion after for the others. It is not stating that when you calculate the shares you automatically aportion double to males. In fact if it was so, the Qur'an could have said stright out for the males double than for the females. But it doesn't say so nor proceeds that way. So first a portion is assigned for the females when they are two. So two females one male they would there would be three equal portions. Then after considering the case when there are two females, comes the case when it is one female, and finally the case when it is more than two females. So the first thing is to set the share of the females when they are two to one, which would be the same share for all the offspring.

As has already been stated, inheritance es calculated or fixed taking it as a function of the number of female offspring.

If two, then the male takes the part like the two females

If there is only one daughter she takes half regardless of the number of males

If there are more than two they take two thirds, regardless equally of the number of males.

On the other hand, there is a curious thing and I do not know whether anybody has commented on it:

There are two expressions which occur in succession in the three ayas 4.11 4.12 and 3.176

First we read in 4.11

thuluthaa ma taraka

later in the same aya speakign about the parents it says li kulli wahid minhuma as-sudus min ma taraka


The same phenomenon we observe in the ayas I have mentioned the use first of ma taraka and then the use of min ma taraka

So ?Any idea as to what is the difference between them "ma taraka" and "min ma taraka"?

I think it must necessarily mean something. Looks systematic.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 07, 2012, 11:51:16 PM
Lildhakar mithlu haz el unthayain, (to the male like the portion of the two females)

I do not understand that as meaning he gets double of each of them, but that he gets the same as each of them. His portion is like the portion of the two females, who have already been aportionned their portion so as to aportion after for the others. It is not stating that when you calculate the shares you automatically aportion double to males. In fact if it was so, the Qur'an could have said stright out for the males double than for the females. But it doesn't say so nor proceeds that way. So first a portion is assigned for the females when they are two. So two females one male they would there would be three equal portions. Then after considering the case when there are two females, comes the case when it is one female, and finally the case when it is more than two females. So the first thing is to set the share of the females when they are two to one, which would be the same share for all the offspring.

As has already been stated, inheritance es calculated or fixed taking it as a function of the number of female offspring.

If two, then the male takes the part like the two females

If there is only one daughter she takes half regardless of the number of males

If there are more than two they take two thirds, regardless equally of the number of males.

Salaam huruf,

There is a problem using that train of thought not only with 1 daughter for example $200,000 inheritance gets 1/2 or $100,000 while 10 sons would get $10,000 each or 1/10 that of the girl. It's precisely stated for any mixed siblings 4:176 and same wording is used ? ?to the male like share the two females.?

Therefore cannot solve for example unless using 2:1 male to female ratio: 3 sisters, 2 brothers?

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in اولادكم your children?
للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

4:176 وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

On the other hand, there is a curious thing and I do not know whether anybody has commented on it:

There are two expressions which occur in succession in the three ayas 4.11 4.12 and 3.176

First we read in 4.11

thuluthaa ma taraka

later in the same aya speakign about the parents it says li kulli wahid minhuma as-sudus min ma taraka


The same phenomenon we observe in the ayas I have mentioned the use first of ma taraka and then the use of min ma taraka

So ?Any idea as to what is the difference between them "ma taraka" and "min ma taraka"?

I think it must necessarily mean something. Looks systematic.

I've looked into both these and need to examine further; my first thought was it has to do with priority of who gets paid first. Mathematically in all languages ما ma/what/of ترك left is multiplication like in English we say 1/2 "of" Y (1/2 x Y) whereas  مما from what ترك left implies subtraction first or Y - 1/2 although ran into an issue with consistency with distributions to husband and wife likewise other fractions are given without ma or mimma...


4:11 فلامه so to his mother الثلث the third

4:12
 ولكم and to you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouses (if no child)
 فلكم so to you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left (if son)

 ولهن and to them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left (if no child)
فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left (if son)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 08, 2012, 12:47:30 AM
On the first part of your answer I do not agree. I have been a long time turning that in my mind, and logically it makes sense the way I said, to me at least, whereas textually the the male like twice the female is exotic o estraneous. I also had taken notice of 4.176, which is different, but in that particular expression may be the same.

As to the unfairness, no. What is absolutely unfair is that women get punished with half for the heck of it on the asumption, not made int he Qur'an that in all cases the men will be angels and they will look after them better than themselves. The money given to women is consistently better spent that the money gone to males. Women spend on their family.I am old enough to have seen with my own eyes what happens with inheritance when women are desregarded. There are very good men around, but God knows as I know and many people know that to trample on women does not take a lot of trouble or effort and that it is better that the power over themselves (the women) in in their own hands (of the women) rather and in other hands.

I think inheritance has also been coloniazed by the boys hypnotic club.



Thanks for your efforts with the ma and min ma. I also thought it might be something to do with whether you take out first whatever legacies and liabilities, but same I am lost. Let us hope we well get some light on that, because it might also help on other aspects.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 08, 2012, 01:17:13 AM
On the first part of your answer I do not agree. I have been a long time turning that in my mind, and logically it makes sense the way I said, to me at least, whereas textually the the male like twice the female is exotic o estraneous. I also had taken notice of 4.176, which is different, but in that particular expression may be the same.

Then distribute 3 sisters and 2 brothers using your understanding apply it consistently?

4:176 وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

As to the unfairness, no. What is absolutely unfair is that women get punished with half

They don't always get half; depends on the situation; here are a few examples they get more or share equally...

فان so if كانوا they were اكثر greater من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third

1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 2/3 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/8 wife + 13/24 son/s = 1
1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/4 husband + 5/12 son/s = 1

1 daughter 1/2 + 1/2 husband = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/2 brother/s = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/4 mother + 1/4 father = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/2 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 brother/s = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/4 mother/father + 1/4 husband = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father + 1/6 husband = 1
1 daughter 1/2 + 1/6 mother + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1

3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 father = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 brother/s = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/6 mother + 1/6 (sister/s + brother/s) = 1
3 daughters 2/3 (2/9 each) + 1/9 mother + 1/9 father + 1/9 husband = 1

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 08, 2012, 03:03:23 AM
I am not going to distribute anything. I leave that to specialists, but that is not an argument. You cannot mix justice and mathematics. You first find out what is just and then find the mathematics to apply it.

To say that not always is less for the female really must be a joke, it is almost always. So the "almost" should compensate for the bulk of the injustice? Whom are we kidding?

In inheritance the bulk of it is from ascendants to descendants, from parents to children, so you trample there, the rest is peanuts.

So no, fundamentally the male twice as the female is not fair and it is not what the Qur'an says.

I acknowledge that there are holes in the whole set up of inheritance in my view, in your view, in evrybody's view that I know off, but I do not believe that cutting justice corners helps en solving them. We need patience and the intelligence and vision of persons like you and others and all of us who try to find as much of the truth that we can. The Qur'an, when I have got through to the end of some question has never disappointed me. It has surprised me many times, but not disappointed.

I keep hoping we get some light in the ma taraka and min ma taraka.

Salaam

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 08, 2012, 09:06:14 PM
I am not going to distribute anything. I leave that to specialists,

Then you should not have posted below unless you are ready to distribute 4:176 mixed siblings...

If two, then the male takes the part like the two females

If there is only one daughter she takes half regardless of the number of males

If there are more than two they take two thirds, regardless equally of the number of males.

Therefore be consistent apply what you wrote above to all combinations of mixed siblings...

4:176 وان AND IF (i.e. begin new case) كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

You cannot mix justice and mathematics. You first find out what is just and then find the mathematics to apply it.

No, you cannot write your own book according what you think is just.
Math is oblivious to any justice and the distributions  explicitly stated.
4:11 and 4:176 does not say "to the male like share the female."

To say that not always is less for the female really must be a joke, it is almost always. So the "almost" should compensate for the bulk of the injustice? Whom are we kidding?

Check for yourself how many are equal, favor male, favor female, and circumstances.

Here are all combinations again for reference; obviously sole inheritor gets the whole, no need for arbitration laws.

So no, fundamentally the male twice as the female is not fair and it is not what the Qur'an says.

Inheritance verses are clear and precise. People are free to make a will if they disagree.

4:11 من from بعد after وصيه a will يوصي have made بها in it او or دين judgment

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 09, 2012, 01:12:06 AM
Like share THE two females is not = double than the females, That would be a twisted interpetation, an interested interpretation. Because what it indicates is that there are two concrete females who have already been attributed their part on the basis precisely that they are two, the two females, so they have their share on the basis of that proportion. The share of the male, that male that is in proportion to the two females, well he gets a share the same as the share they have got, not double, not twice their share, but the same share.

For the rest, I admire your mathematical capacity, but I do not hold it sacred. It is not part of the Qur'an.

And it is very rare that the proportion of males to females in a family be something like 1 to 10, although there are cases, but they are rare, proportions tend to be more equal. The equity is far, far far more guaranteed when the distribution is done quranically than when it is done according to the interested manipulations of those who interpret freely. Because in this case every female in the world gets punished, because every female is somebody's daughter, whereas in the proportions stated by the Qur'an, even in the extreme cases of 1 female to 10 males (?how many of those do you know?), ten males are far more capable of getting ahead and helping each other along, than if you leave one single, lonely, alone female with 1/22nd part of the whole inheritance. If the brothers, as many of them do, do not give a damn about her, she is done.

?For God's sake! Next we will want what, to sell what bridge? Everybody, universally, many, many muslims included, say that woman half the male, is not fair not because they hate islam, that is apart, but simply because that is their gut feeling. And the gut feeling usually does not lie.

Yes we may react piously and since it is holy we look for those little instances where according to the ulemas in fact, ?isn't that great! females get the same, or ?EVEN!?EVEN! more and with that we shut up because we are good girls or boys and accept the pretty status quo... Whom are we cheating?

No, the Qur'an does not say to the male twice what the female, or double the female. That is a lie. If the Qur'an wanted to say that, it would have said it. As clear as when it says you require four witnesses for something.

Males in proportion one to two females, get the same as them, not double as them. An only daughter gets half. The discourse in aya 4.11 has not changed, it continuews speaking about the children, it doesn't say if there are only daughters and no males, it doesn't. But if it is too much for us, it is our problem not the Qur'an speaking.

And I am sorry again, I am not going to distribute anything. I do not think that would be a problem. Mathematics and algebra are a pretty good tool if one knows how to use it. If by one means you cannot get a result, another means should be tried. To say you cannot and therefore you must change the Qur'an dispositions so that you can do your mathematics for me is not acceptable. Rather to have bad mathematics than injustice.

Also, you yourself recognize that we do not know what to do with ma taraka and min ma taraka, and I suspect that there are things that are still obscure. May be that will throw some light on the whole thing.

The problem is that along the centuries we have let so many accretions muddle the understanding and the clarity of the Qur'an that many times we do not see its clarity even when it is shining on our nose. We have seen that so many times!

As far as I am concerned, the "to the male twice as to the female" is a heinous lie, a treacherous act of hipnotism. There is something indeed very hypnotic to the traditional interpretations, as if they were inescapable, like fate, or sacred.

They are not, and they are escapable.

Salaam



Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 09, 2012, 08:09:51 AM
No, the Qur'an does not say to the male twice what the female, or double the female. That is a lie. If the Qur'an wanted to say that, it would have said it. As clear as when it says you require four witnesses for something.

These are logically incorrect; two cannot have same result as three...

to the male like share the two females?
(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=255236612)

to the male like share the three females?
(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=833522170)


4:176 وان AND IF (i.e. begin new case) كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

Above starts new case "mixed" siblings and logically this is correct...

to the male like share the female
(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=1957586161)

to the male like share the two females
(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=1230912497)

to the male like share the three females
(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=1029359866)

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 09, 2012, 09:36:05 AM
I do not get what you are trying to say.

The boy has the same amount of fingers as the two girls.



What?: He has twenty fingers?

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 09, 2012, 12:25:34 PM
I do not get what you are trying to say.

The boy has the same amount of fingers as the two girls.


What?: He has twenty fingers?

Salaam

No, it's not about him having twenty fingers and toes. That analogy is true regardless of the number of girls.

The boy has the same amount of fingers as the one girl
The boy has the same amount of fingers as the two girls
The boy has the same amount of fingers as the three girls
 
It's an illogical analogy when applied to sharing inheritance. Two females is used for a reason; not one, three, etc.

The boy has the same amount of money as the one girl (1:1 ratio)
The boy has the same amount of money as the two girls (2:1 ratio)
The boy has the same amount of money as the three girls (3:1 ratio)

4:176 وان AND IF (i.e. begin new case) كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=1230912497)

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 09, 2012, 01:11:56 PM
No, it's not about him having twenty fingers and toes. That analogy is true regardless of the number of girls.

The boy has the same amount of fingers as the one girl
The boy has the same amount of fingers as the two girls
The boy has the same amount of fingers as the three girls
 
It's an illogical analogy when applied to sharing inheritance. Two females is used for a reason; not one, three, etc.

The boy has the same amount of money as the one girl (1:1 ratio)
The boy has the same amount of money as the two girls (2:1 ratio)
The boy has the same amount of money as the three girls (3:1 ratio)

4:176 وان AND IF (i.e. begin new case) كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

(http://easycalculation.com/charts/imagedisplay.php?rand=1230912497)

Peace

Of course, it is used for a reason, but the reason is to fix the part of the inheritance as a function of the number of girls, Therefore it alots first to the girls: it is not, again, a male the same amount as the amount given to two girls together, it is: if there are two girls he gets the same amount as them. There is a determinate article and it is the number of girls that maters. And then it continues with the case of more than two girls and then with the case of one girl and at no time in all that it suggests or hints or says that in the first case it is speaking about mixed gender and then only about one gender, it is still speaking about mixed gender.

The amount of twisting of the arabic in order to uphold "the male double the female" is fantastic. And the maths is not going to change what the Arabic says.

And the Qur'an if it wasn't a question of the shares as a function of the number of females, could have said with no trouble and no esoteric idioms that the male takes double as the female, which it doesn't say.

No matter how many cakes to cut you put in the messages, the fact that it does not say to the male double the female, but that it says the share of the male is the same as the share of the two females, it is the same as if you say the salary of that employee is the same as the salary of those two employees, it is not saying it is double, but that those emplooyees get a salary which the same as the salary of the first. not the summ of both salaries amount to the salary of the one.

But I suppose it is very hard to rennounce privilege and arabic and Qur'an will be twisted and pressed in every way so as to get what one wants to get out of it, no matter how preposterous.

It is preposterous that somebody is shocked and reject such possibility because in some very rare cases some males might get less than some female, but that the fact that all the females in existence will be skimmed of half their inheritance is taken for granted with no qualms or exclamations of it being unfair.


The problem is not in the Arabic or the maths or anything, the problem is somewhere else.

Salaam

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 09, 2012, 03:58:10 PM
Of course, it is used for a reason, but the reason is to fix the part of the inheritance as a function of the number of girls, Therefore it alots first to the girls: it is not, again, a male the same amount as the amount given to two girls together, it is: if there are two girls he gets the same amount as them.

Peace huruf, with that reasoning you cannot ever distribute:

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in اولادكم your children
للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

2 daughters 2 sons
2 daughters 3 sons

Nor can you distribute when parents or spouse are included above.
That is mathematical/logical proof that your reading is contradicting.

4:176 ? وان and if كانوا they were اخوه ikh'watun brethren/siblings رجالا rijal ونساء wanisa
فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)
 يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you ان lest تضلوا you stray
 والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 10, 2012, 02:17:15 AM
If the distribution is as a function of the number of female daughters,
It says the male like the share of the two females, and the number of males does not matter, wht is fixed is what is alotted to the females, then what is left is alotted to the males, in whatever number.

The females are the ones that are numbered, one, two, over two. So the the effects one, the male is any number of males. So the male (any number of males) is one third between them.

Or you can use proportion if they are one to two they will get the same as the two females, or if they are three, the three get the same amount as one of the females, which is what goes on when there are over two females and they get two thirds. The third that is left is for the males.

Now, please, please, please don't cringe that that would be unfair, because you are pushing all along the principle with no qualms and no trouble that to disinherit the whole feminine population is quite acceptable and no big deal, in spite of the Qur'an itself considering women generally as more vulnerable than men.

How would you find that the first care of those who are supposedly qawwamun (carers) dor the women would be to snatch as dilligently as possible any parte that might fall on the women as inheritance?

Some jokes are funny, others are not.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 10, 2012, 03:21:33 PM
If the distribution is as a function of the number of female daughters,
It says the male like the share of the two females, and the number of males does not matter, wht is fixed is what is alotted to the females, then what is left is alotted to the males, in whatever number.

The females are the ones that are numbered, one, two, over two. So the the effects one, the male is any number of males. So the male (any number of males) is one third between them.

What I'm trying to explain is that it contradicts 4:176 which does not revolve around the number of females.
It leads to unsolvable combinations. Examples:

2 daughters 2 sons
2 daughters 3 sons
The above with siblings (two unknowns; hence unsolvable)

3 sisters 2 brothers
3 sisters 3 brothers

Even with your interpretation revolving around females you still end up with male getting twice. Example:

3 daughters 1 son
girls get 2/3 (2/9 each) 1 son gets 1/3 (3/9) or 1.5 times.

4 daughters 1 son
girls get 2/3 (1/6 each) 1 son gets 1/3 or twice as much

You really have to study all cases and correct interpretation cannot contradict give unsolvable results. It is the same proof for example we know the spouse or father cannot share together with siblings.

Proof:
1 = father (variable) + siblings mixed 2:1 ratio male to female (undefined in your interpretation)
1 = y + 2x + x
1 = y + 3x (no solution without involving negative numbers (-2=y, 1=x))

In conclusion: للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine) is a simple 2:1 ratio.

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 11, 2012, 12:27:25 AM
So with the children nothing to complain about. The gretaer the number of the same sex, individually they may have less, but also they are more to help and share along. It goes the same for the males as for the females. It is fair and I think wise that precisely those who might be in a minority are better protected. That s single daughter among many males should inherit more is sensible, she is more protected. the other way around are less fvoured but still with lesser number reltively more favoured. For a measure that is general I think it is very thoughtful.

Of course, there is for all cases the possibility to make wills based on the individual needs. A general dispositions cannot fullfill individual need nor it is its purpose.

The distribution for the children I already answered that. And for the restin another forum in Spansih we hve been dealing with it, and now, as far as I can judge, I have may be a good idea of what the

ma taraka
and the
min ma taraka entails.

Ma taraka is the first distribution which is stated, and min ma taraka comes after as a "correction" in the sense that what it refers to should be charged to that same first inheritance. So that from the inheritance you take out at the same time the two sixths for the parents as the parts for the twos of sisters, or the two thirds for the more than two or the half for the one girl child.

If there is left an amount without being ditributed, if the inheritors are poor it me be attributed to them in the same proportion as the same attribution, if they are well off, it can go for social purposes. That I am not inventing the Qur'an commands to do that, so either to the needy inheritors, or to the needy non natural inheritors.

I think all combinations following that pattern can be had.

If not there may be an error in interpretation of the dispositions of the Qur'an or no the right proceedure has been applied.

I uote form the spanish site:

"
- Se considera que hay un solo legado inicial, que consta de la suma de la parte correspondiente a los progenitores y a la viuda.
- Sobre los 1.000? se aplica una sola cantidad de 333,33? (2 sextos) + 125? (1 octavo)
- La cantidad restante de esta operaci?n es 541,67?
- Sobre la cantidad de 541,67? se aplican 2 tercios para las f?minas y 1 tercio para los varones
"

Salaam

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Released on October 11, 2012, 10:58:44 AM
Peace :)

Interesting discussion guys!! I'm going to read this thread from the beginning and see what I can deduce.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 11, 2012, 10:01:48 PM
Of course, there is for all cases the possibility to make wills based on the individual needs. A general dispositions cannot fullfill individual need nor it is its purpose.

Of course!

The distribution for the children I already answered that. And for the restin another forum in Spansih we hve been dealing with it, and now, as far as I can judge, I have may be a good idea of what the

ma taraka
and the
min ma taraka entails.

Ma taraka is the first distribution which is stated, and min ma taraka comes after as a "correction" in the sense that what it refers to should be charged to that same first inheritance. So that from the inheritance you take out at the same time the two sixths for the parents as the parts for the twos of sisters, or the two thirds for the more than two or the half for the one girl child.

If there is left an amount without being ditributed, if the inheritors are poor it me be attributed to them in the same proportion as the same attribution, if they are well off, it can go for social purposes. That I am not inventing the Qur'an commands to do that, so either to the needy inheritors, or to the needy non natural inheritors.

I think all combinations following that pattern can be had.

If not there may be an error in interpretation of the dispositions of the Qur'an or no the right proceedure has been applied.

I uote form the spanish site:

"
- Se considera que hay un solo legado inicial, que consta de la suma de la parte correspondiente a los progenitores y a la viuda.
- Sobre los 1.000? se aplica una sola cantidad de 333,33? (2 sextos) + 125? (1 octavo)
- La cantidad restante de esta operaci?n es 541,67?
- Sobre la cantidad de 541,67? se aplican 2 tercios para las f?minas y 1 tercio para los varones
"

Salaam

OK to translate, case is: parents, wife, 3+ daughters, 2+ sons

1 - 1/3 parents (2/6 x 1000 = 333.33) - 1/8 wife (?1000 x 1/8 = 125) = 13/24 to children (1000 x 13/24 = 541.67)

children: 541.67

541.67 x 2/3 = 361.113 to girls
541.67 x 1/3 = 180.557 to boys

Problema/contradiccion numero uno -- take out the sons try distributing...

3 daughters, parents, wife?
3 daughters, mother?
3 daughters, sister?

Problema/contradiccion numero dos -- be consistent with 4:176 where 1/2 and 2/3 is not applicable nor are ما ma/what ترك taraka/left or مما mimma/from what ترك tarakna/left mentioned; it's clearly about mixed siblings and we are only given this function...

4:176... فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الانثيين the two (feminine)

How for example using only the above to distribute 3 sisters and 2 brothers?

Interesting discussion guys!! I'm going to read this thread from the beginning and see what I can deduce.

Gracias!

Paz!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: herbman on October 22, 2012, 05:23:32 AM
Salam, Peace, Nun, Huruf, all,

just a question that come to me, I don't know if you already looked at it or maybe discussed it before:

In the verses regarding inheritence, in the scenario where the husband die, and leave behind wife and children, the usual scenario is having one wife and children.  Do we have any case where verses speak about 2, 3, 4 wives, is it 1/8 each etc...
Does the verse say 3-"To the wife...1/8" or "To wives ...1/8"

This can help to conclude if "polygamy" was the default or not.

Thanks
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 23, 2012, 10:09:33 AM
Salam, Peace, Nun, Huruf, all,

just a question that come to me, I don't know if you already looked at it or maybe discussed it before:

In the verses regarding inheritence, in the scenario where the husband die, and leave behind wife and children, the usual scenario is having one wife and children.  Do we have any case where verses speak about 2, 3, 4 wives, is it 1/8 each etc...
Does the verse say 3-"To the wife...1/8" or "To wives ...1/8"

This can help to conclude if "polygamy" was the default or not.

Thanks

Peace herbman,

It cannot be confirmed since verses addresses the community as a whole (plural).

4:12
 ولكم and for you (masculine plural) نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouses
 ولهن and for them (feminine plural) الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left (plural)

Having multiple wives is clear since prohibition of marrying sisters is stated.

4:23
 حرمت prohibited عليكم onto you ...
 وان and that تجمعوا you gathered بين between الاختين the two sisters الا only ما what قد hence سلف passed

This is basic logic...

IF marrying multiple sisters = FALSE
THEN marrying non-sisters = TRUE

Distribution same any like category inheritors (e.g. sons) they all share evenly.

2 wives, 2 sons

1 - 1/8 wives (1/16 each) = 7/8 sons (7/16 each)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 23, 2012, 11:31:07 PM
Peace herbman,

Notice the switch "لهن to them" with "لكم to you" otherwise the math would not work.
Example: 4 wives, no child, each wife would get 1/4, leaves nothing for the parents.

4:12
 ولكم and to you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم your spouses ان if لم not يكن was لهن to them ولد waladun/offspring/child
 فان so if كان kana/is (masculine) لهن to them ولد walad (if to deceased/wife a male child/born) فلكم so to you الربع the fourth

 ولهن and to them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left ان if لم not يكن was لكم to you ولد waladun/offspring/child
 فان so if كان kana/is (masculine) لكم to you ولد walad (if to deceased/husband a male child/born) فلهن so to them (feminine plural) الثمن the eight

Few more examples...

wife-1 (son)
wife-2 (son)
wife-3 (no child)
wife-4 (no child)
if son = true
if no child = false
wives share = 1/8 fixed
parent share = 1/6 fixed
1 - 1/3 parents - 1/8 wives = 13/24 sons


wife-1 (daughter)
wife-2 (no child)
wife-3 (no child)
wife-4 (no child)
if son = false
if no child = false
wives share = variable
1 - 1/2 daughter = 1/2 wives (1/8 each)


wife-1 (son)
wife-2 (daughter)
wife-3 (no child)
wife-4 (no child)
if son = true
if no child = false
wives share = 1/8 fixed
1 - 1/8 wives = 7/8 children (7/24 daughter + 7/12 son) 2:1 ratio male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: herbman on October 24, 2012, 04:52:30 AM
Thanks a lot Noon.

It is very helpfull and instructive.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Notexceling on January 31, 2014, 09:59:44 AM
Hi guys,

I think I finally worked out inheritance.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6KVs7S_G7YEQkN5Y3RlZmJzOFE/edit?usp=sharing

Here is a simple questionnaire that highlights the respective ayat related to your situation.

Answer the 5 questions, Get your answer.

Let me know if there are any problems....Been testing it seems to work fine.

Go to File and press download (doesnt work on the google drive, requires conditional formatting)

I need all the feedback I can get. Test it and tell me if you find errors.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on February 11, 2014, 01:35:58 PM
Hi guys,

I think I finally worked out inheritance.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6KVs7S_G7YEQkN5Y3RlZmJzOFE/edit?usp=sharing

Here is a simple questionnaire that highlights the respective ayat related to your situation.

Answer the 5 questions, Get your answer.

Let me know if there are any problems....Been testing it seems to work fine.

Go to File and press download (doesnt work on the google drive, requires conditional formatting)

I need all the feedback I can get. Test it and tell me if you find errors.

Peace Notexceling,

Incomplete, erroneous translation e.g. kalala, walad, etc., nor does it cover all combinations or give distributions.

Perhaps as an exercise distribute: parents die leave property jointly owned.
3 children heirs; 2 sisters and 1 half-brother from father's first marriage

CASE 1: father dies then later that same day the mother
CASE 2: mother dies then later that same day the father
CASE 3: parents perish simultaneously as in an accident

Here are all the combinations that the calculator needs to consider ?

Daughter/s
Son/s
Father
Mother
Wife/Husband
Sister/s
Brother/s

Daughter/s, Son/s
Daughter/s, Father
Daughter/s, Mother
Daughter/s, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Father
Son/s, Mother
Son/s, Wife/Husband
Son/s, Sister/s
Son/s, Brother/s
Father, Mother
Father, Wife/Husband
Father, Sister/s
Father, Brother/s
Mother, Wife/Husband
Mother, Sister/s
Mother, Brother/s
Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Sister/s, Brother/s

Daughter/s, Son/s, Father
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother
Daughter/s, Son/s, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Son/s, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother
Daughter/s, Father, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Father, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Father, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Mother, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Mother, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Mother, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Mother
Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband
Son/s, Father, Sister/s
Son/s, Father, Brother/s
Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband
Son/s, Mother, Sister/s
Son/s, Mother, Brother/s
Son/s, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Son/s, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Son/s, Sister/s, Brother/s
Father, Mother, Wife/Husband
Father, Mother, Sister/s
Father, Mother, Brother/s
Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Father, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Father, Sister/s, Brother/s
Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s

Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband
Son/s, Father, Mother, Sister/s
Son/s, Father, Mother, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Son/s, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Father, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s

Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s

Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Son/s, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Daughter/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s
Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s

Daughter/s, Son/s, Father, Mother, Wife/Husband, Sister/s, Brother/s

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on February 16, 2014, 07:51:26 AM
Perhaps as an exercise distribute: parents die leave property jointly owned.
3 children heirs; 2 sisters and 1 half-brother from father's first marriage

CASE 1: father dies then later that same day the mother
CASE 2: mother dies then later that same day the father
CASE 3: parents perish simultaneously as in an accident

Peace, here are distributions for reference.

CASE 1: fathers? half property
1/8 wife
7/8 children (7/32 each daughter + 7/16 half-brother from fathers first marriage)
Then mothers 1/2 property + 1/8 to daughters (half-brother zero, not his mother)

CASE 2: mothers? half property
1/4 husband
3/4 daughters (half-brother zero, not his mother)
Then fathers 1/2 property + 1/4 to 3 children (3/16 each daughter and 3/8 to son)

CASE 3: parents perish simultaneously as in an accident
?   mother?s half property to daughters (half-brother zero, not his mother)
?   father?s half property to 3 children (1/8 to each daughter and 1/4 to son)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on March 01, 2014, 07:20:27 PM
Wanted to link threads; two ways to resolved the contradictions:

1) using 1, 2, or 3+ female to male ratios for children and siblings
2) toggle meaning of walad as exampled in this thread and below

Peace NielsJacob

It has to do with definition of walad and we know from 4:11 that either sex is included.
4:11 ىوصىكم directs you الله the god فى in اولادكم awlādikum/children yours

Likewise with cross-reference we know ىكن yakun can refer to either sex.
2:196 ... لمن to whom لم not ىكن yakun/that be اهله family his حاضرى present

Likewise with cross-reference we know that ?اهله family his? includes females
29:32 واهله and family his الا except امراته lady his كانت be she (f/s) من from الغابرىن the remain behind

Whereas كان kana/be he (m/s) always refers to masculine


Example Case: 3 daughters, husband

4:11 فان so if كن kunna/be they (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق above اثنتىن two (f)
  فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا third dual (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم spouses yours
 ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لهن for them ولد walad (if no child 1/2)
 فان so if كان kana/be (m/s) لهن for them ولد walad فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

Therefore husband share is left variable/undefined this particular case and gets 1/3 remainder.
1/2 if no child = false
1/4 if son = false

That?s only non-contradicting reading far as I know for all combinations without surplus/deficit.

Contradiction: excess 2/3 + 1/4 = 0.9167
1/2 if no child = false
1/4 if child = true

Contradiction: deficit 2/3 + 1/2 = 1.1667
1/2 if no son = true
1/4 if son = false

4:176 ... ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest تضلوا stray yeh والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم knower

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 17, 2014, 11:27:10 PM
Peace ? needed to update definition of Kalala as also a person who leaves no daughters as heirs else there is a contradiction in 4:12 and key difference whether to apply 4:12 presence of son or 4:176 no son.

Thus siblings only inherit together with mother and/or son/s and never with daughter/s, spouse, or father.   

4:11 ىوصىكم directs you الله the god فى in اولادكم children yours للذكر to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (feminine) فان so if كن be/are (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن two (feminine) فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا  third dual (1/3*2=2/3) ما what ترك left وان and if كانت be she (f/s) واحده one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half ولابوىه and to parents dual his لكل to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان be (s/m) له for him ولد waladun/born (son) فان so if لم not ىكن that be له for him ولد waladun/born (child) وورثه and heirs ابواه parents dual his فلامه so to mother his الثلث the third فان so if كان be (s/m) له for him اخوه ikh'watun/brother فلامه so to mother his السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى have made بها in it او or دىن judgment اباوكم fathers yours وابناوكم and sons yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه obligation من from الله the god ان surely الله the god كان be علىما knowledge of حكىما wisdom of

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم spouses yours ان if لم not ىكن that be لهن for them ولد waladun/born (child) فان so if كان be (m/s) لهن for them ولد waladun/born (son) فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن left they من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصىن made they بها in it او or دىن judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم left thou you ان if لم not ىكن that be لكم for you ولد waladun/born (child) فان so if كان be (s/m) لكم for you ولد waladun/born (son) فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم left thou you من from بعد after وصىه will توصون thou making بها in it او or دىن judgment وان and if كان be (m/s) رجل rajulun/man ىورث inherited كلاله kalālatan/fatherless spouse-less daughter-less (i.e. mother, son/s, and/or siblings are only heirs) او or امراه im'ra-atun/lady وله and to him اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth فان so if كانوا be they of (2+) اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى is recommended بها in it او or دىن judgment غىر other than مضار harmful وصىه will من from الله the god والله and the god علىم know-er حلىم forbear-er

4:176 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives a ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalālati/the fatherless spouse-less daughter-less (i.e. mother, son/s, and/or siblings are only heirs) ان if امرو person هلك perished لىس not له for him ولد waladun/born (son) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها inherits it ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/born (son) فان so if كانتا be dual (f/d) اثنتىن two (f/d) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third dual (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left وان and if كانوا be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (feminine) ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest تضلوا stray yeh of والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم know-er

Examples:

If children mixed 2:1 male to female (4:11)

3 daughters 2/3 (no son/s), 1/3 (parent/s and/or spouse) share equally
2 daughters (no son/s, unstated), parent/s, spouse; they share equally
1 daughter 1/2 (no son/s), 1/2 (parent/s and/or spouse); share equally

1/3 parents, 2/3 son/s or children mixed 2:1 male to female
1/3 mother, 2/3 father

1/2 husband, 1/2 parent/s (4:12 if no child)
1/4 husband, 1/3 parents (1/6 each), 5/12 children mixed 2:1 male to female (4:12 if son)

1/4 wife, 3/4 parent/s (4:12 if no child)
1/8 wife, 1/3 parents (1/6 each), 13/24 son/s or children mixed 2:1 male to female (4:12 if son)


4:12 ... وان and if كان be (m/s) رجل rajulun/man ىورث inherited كلاله kalālatan/fatherless spouse-less daughter-less (i.e. mother, son/s, and/or siblings are only heirs) او or امراه im'ra-atun/lady وله and to him اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth

1/6 mother, 1/6 sibling, 2/3 son/s

4:12 ...  فان so if كانوا be they of (2+) اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third

1/6 mother, 1/3 siblings (share equally), 1/2 son/s

4:176 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives a ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalālati/the fatherless spouse-less daughter-less (i.e. mother, son/s, and/or siblings are only heirs) ان if امرو person هلك perished لىس not له for him ولد waladun/born (son) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها inherits it ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/born (son)

1+ brothers 5/6, mother 1/6 (4:11)
1 sister 1/2, mother 1/2


4:176 ... فان so if كانتا be dual (f/d) اثنتىن two (f/d) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third dual (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left

2 sisters 2/3 (1/3 each), mother 1/3
3+ sisters unstated share equally
3 sisters (1/4 each), mother 1/4
4 sisters (1/5 each), mother 1/5
5 sisters (1/6 each), mother 1/6


4:176 ... وان and if كانوا be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (feminine) ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest تضلوا stray yeh of والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم know-er

2:1 male to female ratio siblings mixed
1/6 mother (4:11), 5/6 siblings mixed 2:1 male to female
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 20, 2014, 12:42:50 AM
Peace,

This has been puzzling me for a long time ? where is distribution for exactly two daughters?

4:11
 فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن ith'natayni/two
 فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا third dual (1/3*2=2/3) ما what ترك left
 وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāḥidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half


Lane, An Arabic English Lexicon
? thus one says, العَشَرَةُ فَوْقَ التِّسْعَةِ (Mgh, Msb) i. e. Ten is above nine; meaning ten exceeds nine
... also, in the Kur iii. 12], فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَآءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ (Mgh, Msb) [And if they are women,] exceeding two


Likewise puzzling, where is distribution for 3+ sisters?

4:176
 فان so if كانتا kānatā/be (f/d) اثنتىن ith'natayni/two
 فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each مما from what ترك left


The answer I believe has been there the whole time 4:176 which is not two sisters.
Read closely the part right after if no child which then gives case for two daughters!


4:176
 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives a ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalālati/the fatherless spouseless
 ان if امرو im'ru-on/person هلك perished لىس not له for him ولد waladun/born (child)
 وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left
 وهو and he ىرثها inherits it ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/born (child)

 فان so if كانتا kānatā/be (f/d) اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (daughters!)
 فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا be they of اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk
 فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ share الانثىىن the two (feminine)



Kalala case - fatherless spouseless, no child
1  sister 1/2, mother 1/2
2+ sisters, mother (share equally)

1+ brothers 5/6, mother 1/6 (4:11)

If siblings mixed 2:1 male to female (4:176)
1/6 mother (4:11), 5/6 siblings mixed 2:1 ratio


Kalala case - fatherless spouseless, no son
3+ daughters 2/3 (4:11),  sibling/s 1/3 (If siblings mixed 2:1 male to female 4:176)
2  daughters 2/3 (4:176), sibling/s 1/3
1  daughter  1/2 (4:11),  sibling/s 1/2

3+ daughters 2/3 (4:11),  (sister/s, mother) 1/3 share equally
2  daughters 2/3 (4:176), (sister/s, mother) 1/3 share equally
1  daughter  1/2 (4:11),  (sister/s, mother) 1/2 share equally

3+ daughters 2/3 (4:11),  mother 1/6, brother/s 1/6
2  daughters 2/3 (4:176), mother 1/6, brother/s 1/6
1  daughter  1/2 (4:11),  mother 1/6, brother/s 1/3

3+ daughters 2/3 (4:11),  mother 1/6, siblings mixed 1/6 (2:1 male to female 4:176)
2  daughters 2/3 (4:176), mother 1/6, siblings mixed 1/6
1  daughter  1/2 (4:11),  mother 1/6, siblings mixed 1/3


4:12
 وان and if كان be رجل rajulun/man ىورث inherited كلاله kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) او or امراه im'ra-atun/lady
 وله and to him اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth
 فان so if كانوا kānū/be they of اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third


Kalala case - fatherless spouseless, has son
1/6 sister/brother, 5/6 son/s or children mixed (2:1 male to female 4:11)
1/3 siblings, 2/3 son/s or children mixed

It needs to be resolved in 4:12 language to distinguish presence of son else contradicts if only daughters?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 20, 2014, 09:28:28 PM
Kalala case - fatherless spouseless, has son
1/6 sister/brother, 5/6 son/s or children mixed (2:1 male to female 4:11)
1/3 siblings, 2/3 son/s or children mixed

It needs to be resolved in 4:12 language to distinguish presence of son else contradicts if only daughters?

Peace everyone,

Final notes to explain logic especially Kalala (fatherless spouseless daughterless).

Cannot say Kalala is fatherless spouseless with son then say in 4:176 if no child.
That would be contradictory, like defining Kalala fatherless then say if no parent!

4:176 siblings mixed no child (2:1 male to female) and father ? unsolvable! Father cannot inherit with siblings.
4:12 wife 1/4 no child, 1/2 sister (4:176 no child) ? 1/4 too much! Spouse cannot inherit with siblings.
4:11 daughter 1/2, sibling 1/6 (4:12) ? 1/3 too much! Daughters cannot inherit with siblings.


4:11
 ىوصىكم directs you الله the god فى in اولادكم awlādikum/children yours
 للذكر lildhakari/to the male مثل similitude حظ share الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)


If children mixed 2:1 male to female ratio

فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن two فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا third dual (1/3*2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left

3 daughters 2/3 (2/9 each), parent/s and/or spouse 1/3

Lane, An Arabic English Lexicon
? thus one says, العَشَرَةُ فَوْقَ التِّسْعَةِ (Mgh, Msb) i. e. Ten is above nine; meaning ten exceeds nine:
... Kur iii. 12], فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَآءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ (Mgh, Msb) [And if they are women,] exceeding two.

2 daughters 2/3 (4:176), parent/s and/or spouse 1/3

وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāḥidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half

1 daughter 1/2, parent/s and/or spouse 1/2

ولابوىه and to parents dual his لكل to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kāna/be (m/s) له for him ولد waladun/born (son)

1/6 mother, 1/6 father, 2/3 son/s or if children mixed 2:1 male to female

فان so if لم not ىكن yakun/that be له for him ولد waladun/born (child) وورثه and heirs ابواه parents dual his فلامه so to mother his الثلث the third

1/3 mother, 2/3 father

فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for him اخوه ikh'watun/brother فلامه so to mother his السدس the sixth

1/6 mother, 5/6 brother/s

من from بعد after وصىه a will ىوصى have made بها in it او or دىن judgment اباوكم fathers yours وابناوكم and children/sons yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه obligation من from الله the god ان surely الله the god كان kana/be علىما knowledge of حكىما wisdom of


4:12
 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم azwājukum/spouses yours ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لهن for them (f/p) ولد waladun/born (child)


1/2 husband, 1/2 parent/s

فان so if كان kāna/be (m/s) لهن for them ولد waladun/born (son) فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن left they (f/p) من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصىن made they (f/p) بها in it او or دىن judgment

1/4 husband, 1/3 parents (1/6 each), 5/12 son/s or if children mixed 2:1 male to female

ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم left thou you ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لكم for you ولد waladun/born (child)

1/4 wife, 3/4 parent/s

فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) لكم for you ولد waladun/born (son) فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم left thou you من from بعد after وصىه will توصون thou making بها in it او or دىن judgment

1/8 wife, 1/3 parents (1/6 each), 13/24 son/s or if children mixed 2:1 male to female

وان and if كان kāna/be (m/s) رجل rajulun/man ىورث inherited كلاله kalālatan/fatherless spouseless daughterless (i.e. possible heirs are son, mother, and siblings) او or امراه im'ra-atun/lady وله and to him اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth

1/6 sister/brother, 5/6 son/s
1/6 sister/brother, 1/6 mother (4:11), 2/3 son/s

فان so if كانوا kānū/be they of اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third

1/3 siblings (share equally), 2/3 son/s
1/3 siblings (share equally), 1/6 mother (4:11), 1/2 son/s

من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى is recommended بها in it او or دىن judgment غىر other than مضار harmful وصىه will من from الله the god والله and the god علىم knower حلىم forbearer


4:176
 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives a ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalālati/the fatherless spouseless daughterless ان if امرو im'ru-on/person هلك perished لىس not له for him ولد waladun/born (child) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها inherits it ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لها for her ولد waladun/born (child)


Kalala case - (no child)
1 sister 1/2, mother 1/2
2+ sisters, mother (share equally)
1+ brothers 5/6, mother 1/6 (4:11)

فان so if كانتا kānatā/be (f/d) اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (daughters!) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = /3) مما from what ترك left

2 daughters 2/3 (see 4:11)

وان and if كانوا kānū /be they of اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk فللذكر falildhakari/so to the male مثل similitude حظ share الانثىىن al-unthayayni the two (feminine)

If siblings mixed 2:1 male to female ratio
1/6 mother (4:11), 5/6 siblings mixed 2:1 male to female ratio

ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest تضلوا stray yeh of والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم knower

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: taalibul ilm on October 16, 2014, 05:13:41 PM
SubhaanAllah, 27 pages of confusion. As with any topic, in-depth discussion requires that you know the topic being discussed.

No need for such discussion when the `ulamaa' have already explained everything.

Please visit this site to learn ilmul faraa'idh in-depth: http://inheritancelawsblog.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: JavaLatte on October 16, 2014, 05:57:46 PM
No need for such discussion when the `ulamaa' have already explained everything.

Bold:  To be honest, I dislike this statement. 

So, how do you know that 'the ulamaa' have already explained everything

Are they "gods"?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: taalibul ilm on October 16, 2014, 07:43:50 PM


Bold:  To be honest, I dislike this statement. 

So, how do you know that 'the ulamaa' have already explained everything

Are they "gods"?

To be honest, I saw this comment coming from a mile away.

Never said they were gods, but they know the deen better than us. You guys like to play the mantra of "Qur'an only", right? How about when Allah says, "Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know".

When you follow a madhab, you are following a group of scholars. Its the safe road. And honeslty speaking, the question of madhabs does not even really come up when talking about inheritance, as there is very little ikhtilaaf in inheritance laws. All scholars agree on almost every ruling when it comes to inheritance.

Entire volumes have been written on this topic by the `ulamaa in great detail, masha'Allah. And here you are, 27 pages, still as confused as ever.

Make your life easy, and take the deen from people who know more than you. If you try to figure out every ruling for yourself, you'll end up with a headache, and still have no understanding of the issue.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: taalibul ilm on October 16, 2014, 07:47:11 PM
The site will explain the concept of `awl and Radd. Only when these two concepts are understood will theconfusion subside, at least a little.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 16, 2014, 09:43:16 PM
SubhaanAllah, 27 pages of confusion. As with any topic, in-depth discussion requires that you know the topic being discussed.

No need for such discussion when the `ulamaa' have already explained everything.

Please visit this site to learn ilmul faraa'idh in-depth: http://inheritancelawsblog.wordpress.com/

Peace -- the site is full of errors and contradictions which were parroted from long ago.


The site will explain the concept of `awl and Radd. Only when these two concepts are understood will theconfusion subside, at least a little.

Using al-awl or algebra to normalize or increase/decrease evenly all shares to new values that are never mentioned in Qur'an can be used to wrongly "fix" surplus/shortfall any combinations.


Case which supposedly occurred during caliphate of Umar ibn Khattab.
A woman left: husband, mother, 2 uterine brothers & 2 full brothers.

Umar initially gave: 1/2 husband + 1/6 mother + 1/3 two uterine brothers which left nothing to the two full brothers.

The two full brothers argued that even if their father was a donkey or a stone cast into the sea and they had no paternal relationship, they still had the same and equal relationship with the deceased as the uterine brothers through the same mother.

Umar reconsidered allowed the two full brothers to inherit equally with uterine brothers the 1/3.



Please ask ulamaa' explain: husband, mother, 2 uterine sisters, 2 full sisters & 2 full brothers?

Please state which verses you are using for all cases above and where Qur'an differentiates full and uterine siblings?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: taalibul ilm on October 16, 2014, 10:32:28 PM
Peace -- the site is full of errors and contradictions which were parroted from long ago.


Using al-awl or algebra to normalize or increase/decrease evenly all shares to new values that are never mentioned in Qur'an can be used to wrongly "fix" surplus/shortfall any combinations.


Case which supposedly occurred during caliphate of Umar ibn Khattab.
A woman left: husband, mother, 2 uterine brothers & 2 full brothers.

Umar initially gave: 1/2 husband + 1/6 mother + 1/3 two uterine brothers which left nothing to the two full brothers.

The two full brothers argued that even if their father was a donkey or a stone cast into the sea and they had no paternal relationship, they still had the same and equal relationship with the deceased as the uterine brothers through the same mother.

Umar reconsidered allowed the two full brothers to inherit equally with uterine brothers the 1/3.



Please ask ulamaa' explain: husband, mother, 2 uterine sisters, 2 full sisters & 2 full brothers?

Please state which verses you are using for all cases above and where Qur'an differentiates full and uterine siblings?

Nope, no contradictions. You are only saying that because you reject Hadith, which are HALF of Islam.

The case which you've brought up is quite interesting. This is actually one of the few instances in inheritance law where there is disagreement among the scholars.

The Shafi'i scholars accept the ruling of 'umar.

According to the Hanafi madhab, however, the two full brothers will simply not inherit.

There is consensus of the 'ulamaa that verse 4:176 refers to full and consanguine siblings, while 4:12 refers to uterine siblings. This si mentioned in the books of tafseer. Of course, you guys wouldn't understand this because you only go by the Qur'an.

'Awl has been proves through narrations where `umar applied it. Even if you dont accept that, its been proven through qiyaas (analogy) for when the shares of creditors is proportionally decreased when the assets care not enough to pay them all off. Agian, these are narrations, NOT in the Qur'an, so you guys will obviously dismiss them all. Even though the Qur'an tells us to follow the example of Rasulullah (sallAllaahu `alayhi wasallama) MANY TIMES and he (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) tells us to follow his sahaabah. 

Now since you claim you don't need ahadeeth or narrations from the sahaabah, here is a question for you.

What happens when only a spouse is inheriting? Where does the residue go?

May Allah guide you all. Ameen.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: taalibul ilm on October 16, 2014, 10:38:13 PM
Where did you derive this ruling: "When there is a spouse the siblings dont inherit"?

Incorrect. Siblings DO inherit in the presence of a spouse. Only when a Father (or fathers' father etc..) or son (or sons son etc..) is inheriting are the siblings deprived.

You are claiming contradiction in rules which have already been established for 1400 years by the true scholars of Sunni Islam, yet you dont even know the basics of the rules of exclusion!

I can see this will be a waste of time. Insha'Allah, will take my leave now. No point in conversing with hadith-rejectors.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: JavaLatte on October 17, 2014, 12:09:55 AM
To be honest, I saw this comment coming from a mile away.

I think you still don't understand why I dislike that statement.

And, could you answer these:

How do you know that 'the ulamaa' have already explained everything?

And why you choose Hanafi madhab?

Do you also follow another madhab?  Or perhaps only Hanafi?


Quote
Never said they were gods, but they know the deen better than us.

How do you know that they follow the right path?


Quote
You guys like to play the mantra of "Qur'an only", right?

I think you still don't understand about us. 


Quote
How about when Allah says, "Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know".

Do you think that the famous of 'the ulamaa/scholars' are the people of knowledge?


Quote
When you follow a madhab, you are following a group of scholars.

I do not want to follow a path that may put me in big trouble in the hereafter.

Those scholars are not my guardians.


Quote
Its the safe road.

I don't think so. The safe road is to follow the truth, and the truth is from God.


Quote
Entire volumes have been written on this topic by the `ulamaa in great detail, masha'Allah.

I don't care whether it has 'great' detail or not. I am not impressed with the teachings that mix between right and wrong, because something like that is potentially misleading.


Quote
And here you are, 27 pages, still as confused as ever.

I suppose you could use this 27 pages as materials to study if you want, but if you feel confused, then... perhaps you could check these pages at another time, such as if one day you decide to study Qur'an without the influence of scholars.


Quote
Make your life easy, and take the deen from people who know more than you.

Well, if what you mean is to take the deen from the people who follow madhab/s, then I think the above sentence sounds like persuasion to enter the Hell.

What I want is following the path that God teaches me. I do not want to follow madhab/s.


Quote
If you try to figure out every ruling for yourself, you'll end up with a headache, and still have no understanding of the issue.

Headache if we study the Qur'an?  No, inshaAllah.

If we are patient and constantly regard Allah as our Teacher, then inshaAllah we can improve our understanding and gain wisdom without headache.

Salām.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Man of Faith on October 17, 2014, 01:00:51 AM
It is quite apparent that the so-called hadith of Muhammad follow interpretation errors of Quran. One can always wonder why.

Hundreds of invented religious rules, just like the Jews. Oh, by the way they are the same, just took the name Muslim after the prophet of Quran came around.

Be of one with God
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: si di on October 17, 2014, 01:51:05 AM
How do People come to a 2:1 ratio of man to female,i read something different in the second ayat it is clear to read that unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females so according to my reading the Distribution is like:

                                     Man-2/3;   Two man-2/3;...

                                    Women-1/2;  Two women-2/3;  Three women-2/3;  Four women-2/3...
Can someone clarify?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Man of Faith on October 17, 2014, 03:53:51 AM
The whole inheritance invention is nonsense since why should women get less inheritance because she also supposedly has her husband and they are like one body so the inheritance goes to their family and the other part, if she had a brother, goes to him, and not as suggested here with 2/3 to brother and 1/3 to sister or what it is you suggest. It does not make sense. God does not make any particular difference between man and woman and together they are ONE family. Should one of the spouses "die" they are still one even if one of them is temporarily gone, so the possession shall remain with one half which is husband or wife depending on who outlives the other.

If a husband or wife dies the wealth hence obviously stays within the household even if the children have moved out unless there is some kind of will or the mother wants to hand out from the deceased husband/wife's possessions.

If both parents are dead then their children share equally, disregarding gender, what was in the household, unless there is a will which says something else, and it gets merged into respective household.

This is so natural that you need no written book to see how obvious it is.

Be of one with God
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: si di on October 17, 2014, 12:39:31 PM
Maybe it is all about geneticall inheritance :
(http://www.health.qld.gov.au/haemophilia/images/inherited%20chart.jpg)

And the portions for the Boy equal like two for the girls just showing the Boys x-chromosome xy which is like two xx of the girls
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on October 17, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
That is interesting, si di, I do not know whether it means anything from the point of view of wealth inheritance but it is interesting indeed, and something to bear in minds. The Qur'an does bring many surprises.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on October 17, 2014, 01:37:56 PM
According to Grand Qur'aan it is not the x of mother that matters, it is the x or y of father that will determine the gender of child; because sperm is the determiner.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 17, 2014, 02:32:30 PM
The case which you've brought up is quite interesting. This is actually one of the few instances in inheritance law where there is disagreement among the scholars.

The Shafi'i scholars accept the ruling of 'umar.

According to the Hanafi madhab, however, the two full brothers will simply not inherit.

Peace -- they disagree on many things which Umar "changed his mind" due to lack of comprehension.

Quote
Ma'dan b. Talha reported:
'Umar b. Khattab, delivered the Friday sermon...And I leave not after me anything which to my mind seems more important than Kalala. And I never turned towards the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) (for guidance) more often than this Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) was not annoyed with me on any other (issue) than this: (And he was so perturbed) that he struck his fingers on my chest and said: Does this verse. that is at the end of Surat al-Nisa'. which was revealed in the hot season not suffice you? And if I live longer I would decide this (problem so clearly) that one who reads the Qur'an, or one who does not read it, would be able to take (correct), decisions (under its light).


Example: 1 daughter, mother
Qur'an clearly says only daughter gets 1/2!

4:11 ... وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāhidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half

Malik: 1/6 mother + 1/2 daughter + 1/3 to nobody!
Shafii & Abu-Haneefa: 1/4 mother + 3/4 daugther!

There is consensus of the 'ulamaa that verse 4:176 refers to full and consanguine siblings, while 4:12 refers to uterine siblings. This si mentioned in the books of tafseer. Of course, you guys wouldn't understand this because you only go by the Qur'an. 


Then explain what was posted to you earlier thus according to the followers of hearsay it would be thus?
1/2 husband + 1/6 mother + 1/3 (2) uterine sisters + (2) full sisters & (2) full brothers
What math are you going to use to distribute "zero" at 2:1 male to female ratio to the full siblings?

4:12 ... فان so if كانوا be they اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third
4:176... وان and if كانوا be they اخوه siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk
 فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

What happens when only a spouse is inheriting? Where does the residue go?

With any sole inheritor: child, spouse, father, mother, brother, sister -- entire amount!
No need for inheritance laws single heir none to contest -- should it go to you or Umar?

Where did you derive this ruling: "When there is a spouse the siblings dont inherit"?

Incorrect. Siblings DO inherit in the presence of a spouse. Only when a Father (or fathers' father etc..) or son (or sons son etc..) is inheriting are the siblings deprived.

Perhaps study, siblings inherit in case of Kalala; you imply Kalala has a spouse?
Again try to distribute what was posted above follow exact Qur'an instructions.

4:176 siblings mixed no child (2:1 ratio), father variable ? unsolvable!
Therefore, father cannot inherit with siblings!

4:12 wife 1/4 (no son), 1/2 sister (4:176 no child) leaves 1/4 excess!
Therefore, spouse cannot inherit with siblings!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 17, 2014, 02:46:57 PM
How do People come to a 2:1 ratio of man to female,i read something different in the second ayat it is clear to read that unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females so according to my reading the Distribution is like:

                                     Man-2/3;   Two man-2/3;...

                                    Women-1/2;  Two women-2/3;  Three women-2/3;  Four women-2/3...
Can someone clarify?

Peace si di

4:11... للذكر to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (feminine)

likeness/similarity/equivalence
Perhaps rephrase your question or solve actual example and distribute according to your reading?

1 female & 1 male
1 female & 2 males

2 females & 1 male
2 females & 2 males

The whole inheritance invention is nonsense since why should women get less inheritance ...

4:34 الرجال the menfolk قوامون maintaining على over النساء the womenfolk بما in what فضل favor الله the god بعضهم some them على over بعض others وبما and in what انفقوا spend they of من from اموالهم wealth theirs ...

Peace MF -- not always less and as you stated write a will (5:106) to prevent family quarrels.

1/6 father + 1/6 mother + 2/3 son
1/6 sister + 1/6 brother + 2/3 son

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: si di on October 18, 2014, 12:53:12 PM
@Mazhar
Quote

According to Grand Qur'aan it is not the x of mother that matters, it is the x or y of father that will determine the gender of child; because sperm is the determiner.



You bring it to the Point;the sperm is either x or y and the egg(?) is xx
4:11"يوصيكم الله في أولدكم للذكر مثل حظ الأنثيين "

Thats why it is a Boy like two portions of girls but further on it is difficult because you need genetic knowledge and arabic to understand if only girls are Born they get 2/3 of genes?or is it talking about lineage (ma taraka?)

Any students of medicine here?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: si di on October 19, 2014, 08:29:35 AM
4:11 ... And if she is only one, then she will have one half. And to his parents, each one of them shall have one sixth of what is inherited, if he has a child. If he has no child and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which are closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, for God is Knowledgeable, Wise."

If you parents have a Special appearance the daughter will have 50% of it but she can be different.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 19, 2014, 01:21:43 PM
If you parents have a Special appearance the daughter will have 50% of it but she can be different.

Peace si di -- if genetics what about write a will part, distributions to parents, siblings, and to spouses?

4:7 للرجال to the menfolk نصىب share مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives وللنساء and for the womenfolk نصىب share مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives مما from what قل small منه from it او or كثر large نصىبا share of مفروضا obligatory 4:8 واذا and when حضر comes القسمه the division اولو owners القربى the relatives/near والىتامى and the bereaved/orphaned والمساكىن and the needy فارزقوهم so provide ye them منه from it وقولوا and speak ye of لهم to them قولا speech of معروفا right 4:9 ولىخش and let fear الذىن the ones لو in case تركوا left they of من from خلفهم behind them ذرىه descendant ضعافا weak خافوا fear they of علىهم over them فلىتقوا so let fear they of الله the god ولىقولوا and to says they of قولا speech of سدىدا appropriate 4:10 ان surely الذىن the ones ىاكلون eating اموال wealth الىتامى the bereaved/orphaned ظلما injustice of انما only ىاكلون eating فى in بطونهم interior of body theirs نارا fire of وسىصلون and shall be burning سعىرا blaze of

4:11 ىوصىكم instructs you الله the god فى in اولادكم offspring yours
 للذكر to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (feminine)
 فان so if كن be (f/p) نساء womenfolk فوق above اثنتىن two (f) فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا  third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left
 وان and if كانت be she (f/s) واحده one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half

 ولابوىه and to parents dual said person?s لكل to each واحد one منهما of them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left
 ان if كان be (m/s) له for said person ولد offspring (son)

 فان so if لم not ىكن that be له for said person ولد offspring (child) وورثه and heirs said person?s ابواه parents dual said person?s فلامه so to mother said person?s الثلث the third

 فان so if كان be (s/m) له for said person اخوه brother فلامه so to mother said person?s السدس the sixth

 من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment

  اباوكم fathers yours وابناوكم and sons yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه obligation من from الله the god ان surely الله the god كان be (m/s) علىما knowledgeable حكىما wisdom of
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: BobaFett on October 27, 2014, 06:53:56 PM
Selam noon.

I was wondering if you could help me with something?

Wife1/8            =    3/24
Daughters 2/3    =  16/24
Father 1/6    =    4/24
Mother1/6            =    4/24

Total             =  27/24

I understand the math you used to solve this. I just want to know what makes your translation correct?

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person?s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

Why is ولد translated as "son" in the first use and "child/born" in the second?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 27, 2014, 07:30:34 PM
Why is ولد translated as "son" in the first use and "child/born" in the second?

Peace BobaFett,

Daughters = 2/3
4:11
... فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن two (f) فلهن so for them ثلثا  third dual (2/3) ما what ترك left

Parents (variable, no son)
4:11
... ولابوىه and to parents dual said person?s لكل to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kāna/be (m/s) له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (i.e. son)


Wife variable if conditions are false 1. has daughters 2. no son
4:12
... ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم left thou you ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لكم for you ولد waladun/offspring (child)
 فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) لكم for you ولد waladun/offspring (son) فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم left

Therefore the remaining 1/3 is equally dispersed to wife, mother, and father 1/9 each.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: BobaFett on October 27, 2014, 09:25:49 PM
Peace, and thank you for your response Noon, but I am still not sure why in 4:11,  ولد  is translated as "son" in the first instance and "child" the second?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 28, 2014, 12:00:17 PM
Peace, and thank you for your response Noon, but I am still not sure why in 4:11,  ولد  is translated as "son" in the first instance and "child" the second?

Peace and you are welcome BobaFett,

كان kāna/be (m/s) always refers/points to male; like asking if "he" be offspring (i.e. son) in English

4:11 ... فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه ikh'watun (i.e. male sibling/brother) فلامه so to mother said person?s السدس the sixth

ىكن yakun/that be can refer/point to either gender; e.g.:

4:11... فان so if لم not ىكن yakun/that be له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (child)

2:196...  ذلك such لمن to who لم not ىكن yakun/that be اهله ahluhu/family said person's حاضرى present ...

112:1 قل say هو he الله the god احد one
112:2 الله the god الصمد the eternal
112:3 لم not ىلد yalid/begets ولم and not ىولد yūlad/begotten
112:4 ولم and not ىكن yakun/that be له to him كفوا equivalent of احد one
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: BobaFett on October 31, 2014, 06:13:30 PM
Thank you Noon, that's exactly what I was looking for. :)

EDIT: Sorry, I have one more question, what do the (s/m) (m/s) mean?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 31, 2014, 09:12:20 PM
Thank you Noon, that's exactly what I was looking for. :)
You're welcome BobaFett only way math works toggle if son/child present, etc.

2/3 3+ daughters (4:11), 1/3 husband (variable: if son=false; if no child=false)
1/2 sister (4:176 no child), 1/2 mother (variable: if son=false; if brother=false)

Quote
EDIT: Sorry, I have one more question, what do the (s/m) (m/s) mean?

I use for gender which Arabic is male dominant language thus often depends on context.

 الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (f/d - feminine dual)

 فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p - feminine plural)
 فلهن falahunna/so for them (f/p)

 وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s - feminine singular)
 واحده wāhidatan/one (f/s)

 ان if كان kāna/be (m/s - masculine singular)
 فان so if كان kāna/be (m/s) له for said person اخوه ikh'watun (i.e. if brother present).

 ان surely الله the god كان kana/be (m/s) علىما knowledgeable حكىما wisdom of
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
Post by: Suppliant on November 04, 2014, 04:14:54 PM
Peace Noon,

I'm sorry if you have already addressed this, but I can't seem to find this situation on your first page with all the scenarios put forth. I also saw that you had a correction a few pages back. Has this been reflected on the first page by any chance? It would be good to have that page with the most up-to-date info for your calculations.

How should the inheritance be for 1 son and 1 daughter? I do not believe parents will inherit in this case, as it is quoted from 4:11 "...And to his parents, each one of them shall have one sixth of what is inherited, if he has a child...." (free-minds.org translation). Since there are children, parents do not inherit.

Is it obvious that the they both receive half the inheritance? Or should this part of the ayah be applied: 4:11 "...To the male shall be as that given to two females." even though there aren't two females?


Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 04, 2014, 06:51:56 PM
Peace Suppliant,

I'm sorry if you have already addressed this, but I can't seem to find this situation on your first page with all the scenarios put forth. I also saw that you had a correction a few pages back. Has this been reflected on the first page by any chance? It would be good to have that page with the most up-to-date info for your calculations.

Not sure if the first page can be updated.

How should the inheritance be for 1 son and 1 daughter? I do not believe parents will inherit in this case, as it is quoted from 4:11 "...And to his parents, each one of them shall have one sixth of what is inherited, if he has a child...." (free-minds.org translation). Since there are children, parents do not inherit.

Is it obvious that the they both receive half the inheritance? Or should this part of the ayah be applied: 4:11 "...To the male shall be as that given to two females." even though there aren't two females?

If son=true thus parents receive 1/3 (1/6 each) remaining 2/3 distributed at 2:1 male to female ratio.
Not about two females ratio is given for any combination of males and females else 4:176 contradicts.

4:176 ...
 وان and if كانوا be they of (2+) اخوه siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk
 فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: si di on November 05, 2014, 01:43:39 PM
4:7For the men is a portion from what the parents and the relatives left behind, and for the women is a portion from what the parents and relatives left behind, be it little or much; a forced portion.

One can read the above vers in a genetic sense,relatives here is meant to be the grandparents of the woman and the men(motherly/fatherly branch)
 
4:8 And if the distribution is attended by the relatives and the orphans and the needy, then you shall give them part of it and say to them a kind saying.

In this vers relatives is given in a General term "dul kurba" and is not same as in 4:7 .
And when the birth to a child happened with relative cromosome(trisomi-21) and orpaned cromosome(Turner-syndrome) and with cromosome abrogations(lack of intelligence),their "rizq" is from that genetic material,so talk to him in a Kind way because you consist of the same geniticpool.

Thats a thougt of mine so don?t take it serious with your comments.

salam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 05, 2014, 09:54:27 PM
And when the birth to a child happened with relative cromosome(trisomi-21) and orpaned cromosome(Turner-syndrome) and with cromosome abrogations(lack of intelligence),their "rizq" is from that genetic material,so talk to him in a Kind way because you consist of the same geniticpool.

Thats a thougt of mine so don?t take it serious with your comments.

Peace sidi,

Not about genetics; cannot inherit chromosomes from spouses.

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم spouses yours...
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: si di on November 06, 2014, 01:49:00 PM
Peace sidi,

Not about genetics; cannot inherit chromosomes from spouses.

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم spouses yours...

Well i have slight guess what 4:12 is about after 4:11 was ending with the glorification of Allah i think the above verse is a different one dealing with another subject.I think it is about the fertility or unfertility of men and woman.
This is a difficult field gentic not long ago ingeneers recently found that x-cromosome also inherit unfertility in the past they blame it on the males y-cromosome.
Don't worry NoonWaaqalmi this was the last post of me. :giveup:
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 06, 2014, 02:46:12 PM
Don't worry NoonWaaqalmi this was the last post of me. :giveup:

Peace and no worries si di,

I too have a theory not only are physical traits inherited/encoded from our ancestors also prior knowledge.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: BobaFett on November 10, 2014, 09:41:56 PM
Thanks again Noon!
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 21, 2014, 08:26:24 PM
Peace everyone, was taking a closer look at Kalala in 4:12 believe may refer to inheritor as in ...


7:128 قال said موسى Musa/Moses لقومه to folk his استعىنوا that seek help ye of بالله in the god واصبروا and have patience ye of ان surely الارض the earth لله to god ىورثها yūrithuhā/he causes to inherit her/it من whom ىشاء he wills من from عباده servants his والعاقبه and the end للمتقىن for the righteous

(http://corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=21126)            (http://corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=9949)

4:12 ...  وان and if كان kāna/be (m/s) رجل rajulun/man ىورث yūrathu/he heirs (i.e. leaves as heir) كلاله kalalatan (feminine indefinite noun -- fatherless attribute) او or امراه im'ra-atun/woman (feminine indefinite noun) وله and to him/said person اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth فان so if كانوا kānū/be they of (2+) اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third[/color]


Whereas 4:176 refers to the departed ...

4:176 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalālati (feminine noun -- fatherless attribute) ان if امرو im'ru-on/person هلك perished لىس not له for him/said person ولد waladun/offspring (son) وله and for him/said person اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he (i.e. brother) ىرثها yarithuhā/inherits her/it ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on December 22, 2014, 06:56:09 AM
One verb is passive, other is active.

Kalalatan is a verbal noun; not feminine noun. It refers to a state of being.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 22, 2014, 11:54:50 AM
One verb is passive, other is active.

Kalalatan is a verbal noun; not feminine noun. It refers to a state of being.

Peace Mazar, yes thank you they read incorrectly and tagged it as feminine noun.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:12:54)
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:176:6)

Inheritance dealing with wealth would be first prone to corruption.

Hence we read ...

4:12 ...  وان and if كان kāna/be رجل rajulun/man ىورث yūrathu/leaves heir كلاله kalalatan او or امراه im'ra-atun/woman

1. If deceased man left as heir kalala (fatherless son/s)

or

2. If deceased man left as heir a woman (i.e. wife)

These are combinations which without fatherless son/s or wife mathematically contradict.

 1/1  (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/1  (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)

 1/2 wife 1/2 1 daughter 
 1/3 wife 1/6 brother 1/2 1 daughter 
 1/3 wife 1/6 mother 1/2 1 daughter 
 1/3 wife 1/6 sister 1/2 1 daughter 
 1/3 wife 2/3 2+ daughters 
 1/4 wife 3/4 mother       
 1/4 wife 3/5 mother 1/6 sister   

 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 2/3 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 2/3 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 2/3 son/s
 1/6 brother 5/6 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 brother 5/6 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 brother 5/6 son/s

 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 son/s
 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 2/3 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 2/3 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 2/3 son/s
 1/6 mother 1/6 sister 2/3 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 1/6 sister 2/3 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 1/6 sister 2/3 son/s
 1/6 mother 5/6 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 5/6 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 mother 5/6 son/s

 1/6 sister 5/6 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 sister 5/6 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/6 sister 5/6 son/s
 
 1/6 wife 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 1 daughter 
 1/6 wife 1/6 brother 2/3 2+ daughters 
 1/6 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/2 1 daughter 
 1/6 wife 1/6 mother 2/3 2+ daughters 
 1/6 wife 1/6 sister 2/3 2+ daughters 
 1/8 wife 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 1/2 son/s
 1/8 wife 1/6 brother 5/7 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 brother 5/7 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 brother 5/7 son/s
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/2 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/2 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/2 son/s
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 3/8 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 3/8 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 brother 1/6 sister 3/8 son/s
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 sister 1/2 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 sister 1/2 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 1/6 sister 1/2 son/s
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 5/7 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 5/7 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 mother 5/7 son/s
 1/8 wife 1/6 sister 5/7 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 sister 5/7 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 1/6 sister 5/7 son/s
 1/8 wife 7/8 (1 daughter 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 7/8 (2+ daughters 2:1 ratio son/s)
 1/8 wife 7/8 son/s
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on December 22, 2014, 12:26:41 PM
Quote
4:12 ...  وان and if كان kāna/be رجل rajulun/man ىورث yūrathu/leaves heir كلاله kalalatan او or امراه im'ra-atun/woman

1. If deceased man left as heir kalala (fatherless son/s)

or

2. If deceased man left as heir a woman (i.e. wife)

وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلَالَةً أَوِ امْرَأَةٌ

Both the red nouns are the subject noun for deficient verb by conjunction through "aau". Either man or a woman can be يُورَثُ كَلَالَةً

A man can die in the state that he was all by himself [spouseless either because of alteady dead or divorced]; and so can a woman die in such state.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 28, 2014, 08:43:53 AM
وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلَالَةً أَوِ امْرَأَةٌ

Both the red nouns are the subject noun for deficient verb by conjunction through "aau". Either man or a woman can be يُورَثُ كَلَالَةً

A man can die in the state that he was all by himself [spouseless either because of alteady dead or divorced]; and so can a woman die in such state.

Peace -- yes most definitely without a spouse and much confusion on exact meaning...

The Qur'anic Term Kalala
Studies in Arabic Language and Poetry, Hadit, Tafsir, and Fiqh: Notes on the Origins of Islamic Law
Edition: 1
Author: Agostino Cilardo

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N%2BX6tg1uL.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Quranic-Term-Kalala-Monograph/dp/074861916X

David S. Powers: ?BNF 328a and the Mystery of al-Kalala?
http://rorotoko.com/interview/20090904_powers_david_muhammad_not_father_any_your_men_making_last_prophet/?page=2

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:12:54)
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:176:6)

The best approach is to take the non-contradicting meaning to extrapolate definition...

motherless contradicts!
4:11 ... so if be for said person ikh'watun/brother so to mother said person the sixth

childless contradicts!
4:176 ... and he inheritor hers if not that be for her waladun/offspring (child)
1/4 (4:12) wife + 1/6 (4:12) sister = 5/12!
1/4 (4:12) wife + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 3/4!

fatherless contradicts! (see above)

fatherless & no son contradicts! (see above)
1/4 (4:12) wife + 2/3 (4:11) daughters + 1/3 (4:12) siblings + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 1 3/4 + 0 to mother!

fatherless & no daughter contradicts! (see above)
1/6 (4:11) mother + 1/8 (4:12) wife + 1/3 (4:12) siblings + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 1 1/8 + 0 to son!

fatherless & childless contradicts! (see above)
1/6 mother 1/6 (4:12) brother + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 5/6!
1/6 (4:11) mother + 1/6 sister + 1/6 brother = 1/2!

no spouse alone contradicts!
1/3 (4:11) parents + 1/3 (4:12) siblings + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 1 + 0 to children!
2/3 (4:11) daughters + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 1 1/3 + 0 to parents!

no spouse & no son contradicts! (see above)

no spouse & childless contradicts!
4:176 ... and he inheritor hers if not that be for her waladun/offspring (child)
1/6 mother + 1/6 (4:12) brother + 1/2 (4:176) sister = 5/6!

fatherless & no spouse contradicts!
1/6 mother (4:11 if brother) + 2/3 (4:11) daughters + 1/3 (4:12) siblings = 1 1/6!
1/2 (4:11) daughter + 1/6 (4:12) sister = 2/3!


If using Algebra or al-Awl as some suggest to reduce/increase amounts evenly would make all the above definitions valid!


Hence below is the only two attribute definition which does not contradict!
IF kalala no spouse & no daughter/s! (4:12 if son else use 4:176 no child)

1/6 mother + 1/3 father + 1/2 (4:176) sister/s = 1
1/6 father + 1/6 (4:12) brother + 2/3 son = 1
4:176 (father + siblings mixed 2:1 ratio) = 1

4:11
 ىوصىكم instructs you الله the god فى in اولادكم awlādikum/offspring yours للذكر lildhakari/to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

 فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن two (f/d) فلهن so for them (f/p i.e. 3+) ثلثا  third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāḥidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف al-niṣ'fu/the half

 ولابوىه wali-abawayhi/and to parents dual said person لكل to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kāna/be (m/s) له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (son) فان so if لم not ىكن yakun that be له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (child) وورثه wawarithahu/and bestows to inherit said person ابواه parents dual said person فلامه so to mother said person الثلث the third فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه ikh'watun/brother فلامه so to mother said person السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment

 اباوكم fathers yours وابناوكم and sons yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه obligation من from الله the god ان surely الله the god كان be علىما knowledgeable حكىما wisdom of

4:12
 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم azwājukum/spouses yours ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لهن for them ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كان kāna/be (m/s) لهن for them ولد waladun/offspring (son) فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن left they من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصىن made they بها in it او or دىن judgment

 ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم left you ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لكم for you ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) لكم for you ولد waladun/offspring (son) فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم left you من from بعد after وصىه will توصون thou making بها in it او or دىن judgment

 وان and if كان kāna/be (m/s) رجل rajulun/man ىورث yūrathu/he bestows to inherit كلاله kalalatan (spouse-less without daughter)او or امراه im'ra-atun/woman وله and to said person اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth فان so if كانوا kānū/be they of (2+) اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment غىر other than مضار harmful وصىه will من from الله the god والله and the god علىم knower حلىم tolerant

4:176
 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalalati (the spouseless without daughter) ان if امرو im'ru-on/person هلك perished لىس not له for him ولد waladun/offspring (child) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها yarithuhā/he inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)

 فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (i.e. daughters) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا kānū /be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk فللذكر falildhakari/so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

 ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest/that تضلوا stray ye of والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم knower


(http://oi60.tinypic.com/4g2lbb.jpg)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on December 31, 2014, 09:24:09 AM
A bachelor died at age 40 leaving behind father, sister and adopted son. What will be the distribution according to Grand Qur'aan. The man left a will that all his inheritance goes to his adopted son.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: good logic on December 31, 2014, 09:46:47 AM
Peace Mazhar.

Then the "will" is the outcome.
Qoran encourages a person to make a will. The rules are there in case one does not leave a will.

A believer will be fair to all his/her next of kin when making a wiil- i.e  take the Qoran s advice-.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2015, 12:06:19 AM
And if he died suddenly without leaving a Will, then what will be the distribution formula.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 01, 2015, 12:02:55 PM
A bachelor died at age 40 leaving behind father, sister and adopted son. What will be the distribution according to Grand Qur'aan. The man left a will that all his inheritance goes to his adopted son.

Salaam Mazhar, there is no concept of an adopted son in Qur'an...

33:5 ادعوهم and call ye them لاباىهم to fathers theirs هو it اقسط more just عند near الله the god فان so if لم not تعلموا know ye of اباءهم fathers theirs فاخوانكم so brethren yours فى in الدىن the practice وموالىكم and friends yours ولىس and not علىكم on you جناح blame فىما in what اخطاتم erred you به in it ولكن and however ما what تعمدت intended قلوبكم hearts yours وكان and be الله the god غفورا forgiver of رحىما merciful

None the less a will and last testament always prevails and "من from" mathematically denotes subtraction:
1 - 100% adopted son = 0 (father & sister)

4:11 ... ولابوىه and to parents dual said person... من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment...

Likewise provision is made for spouses or recently divorced with remaining proceeds distributed accordingly...

2:240 والذىن and the ones ىتوفون are dying منكم from among you وىذرون and leaving ازواجا spouses of وصىه will لازواجهم for spouses theirs متاعا provision of الى to الحول the around/year cycle غىر other than اخراج driving out فان so if خرجن leave they  فلا so not جناح blame علىكم on you فى in ما what فعلن do they فى in/concerning انفسهن soul theirs/themselves من from معروف right والله and the god عزىز mighty حكىم wise

2:241 وللمطلقات and for the divorced (f/p) متاع provision بالمعروف in the right حقا truthful على on المتقىن the righteous


However leaving 100% neglecting the near relatives for whatever reason is not recommended...

2:180 كتب written/prescribed علىكم on you اذا when حضر comes احدكم any of you الموت the death ان if ترك left خىرا best of الوصىه the will للوالدىن to the parents dual والاقربىن and the near relatives بالمعروف in the right حقا truthful على on المتقىن the righteous

4:11.. اباوكم fathers yours وابناوكم and sons/children yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه obligation من from الله the god ان surely الله the god كان be علىما knowledgeable حكىما wisdom of


And if he died suddenly without leaving a Will, then what will be the distribution formula.

1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 father (see above chart leaves nothing for adopted son or anyone)

4:176 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalalati/the spouseless without daughter ان if امرو person هلك perished لىس not له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (child) وله and for said person اخت sister فلها so for her  نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)...

Examples:

1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father
1 - 1/6 mother = 2/3 (1/3 father + 1/3 brother)

4:11 ...  فان so if لم not ىكن yakun/that be له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (child) وورثه and bestows to inherit said person ابواه parents dual said person فلامه so to mother said person الثلث the third فان so if كان be له for said person اخوه ikh'watun/brother فلامه so to mother said person السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment ...



Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2015, 01:10:18 PM
Quote
Salaam Mazhar, there is no concept of an adopted son in Qur'an...

33:5 ادعوهم and call ye them لاباىهم to fathers theirs هو it اقسط more just عند near الله the god فان so if لم not تعلموا know ye of اباءهم fathers theirs فاخوانكم so brethren yours فى in الدىن the practice وموالىكم


Salamun alaika

Yes I know adopted son is not son he is brother in Deen: islam but is also amongst beneficiaries
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.033c.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.033d.gif)
Would you not like to give those mentioned here some share as is directed by Allah to give them?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2015, 02:25:57 PM
Quote
فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن two  (f/d) فلهن so for them (f/p i.e. 3+) ثلثا  third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left

Above two means three, four or more.

نساء: Itself means three women or more than three women.

"Over two" is thus redundant according to this translation.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 01, 2015, 02:38:08 PM


Salamun alaika

Yes I know adopted son is not son he is brother in Deen: islam but is also amongst beneficiaries
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.033c.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.033d.gif)
Would you not like to give those mentioned here some share as is directed by Allah to give them?

Peace Mazhar, exactly where does it say adopted are direct heirs?

4:32 ولا and not تتمنوا covet ye of ما what فضل favor الله the god به with it بعضكم some you على over بعض others للرجال to the menfolk نصىب share مما from what اكتسبوا earned they of وللنساء and to the womenfolk نصىب share مما from what اكتسبن earned they واسالوا and ask ye of الله the god من from فضله bounty his ان surely الله the god كان be بكل in every شىء thing علىما knowledgeable 4:33 ولكل and to each جعلنا made we موالى heirs مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives والذىن and the ones عقدت pledged اىمانكم right hands/oaths yours فاتوهم so give ye them نصىبهم share theirs ان surely الله the god كان be على on كل each شىء thing شهىدا witness of

Likewise "brethren" includes everyone even those at war and repent which one is free to give after they inherit...

9:11 فان so if تابوا repented they of واقاموا and guard they of الصلاه the prayer واتوا and give they of الزكاه the recompense alms فاخوانكم so brethren yours فى in الدىن the practice ونفصل and we explain الاىات the signs لقوم to people ىعلمون are knowing

Above two means three, four or more.

نساء: Itself means three women or more than three women.

"Over two" is thus redundant according to this translation.

Yes above two (> 2) means three or more (3+) and it cannot ever mean exactly two.

Exactly two is written thus...

4:176 .... فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2015, 02:38:55 PM
Quote
Hence below is the only two attribute definition which does not contradict!
IF kalala no spouse & no daughter/s! (4:12 if son else use 4:176 no child)
1/6 mother + 1/3 father + 1/2 (4:176) sister/s = 1

This also contradicts
In 4:176 if two sisters the portion is two third.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 01, 2015, 02:44:08 PM
Quote
Yes above two (> 2) means three or more (3+) and it cannot ever mean exactly two.

Exactly two is written thus...

4:176 .... فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left

But what does "over two" means and what is the need to write two unnecessary words when the word Nisa itself means three or more women?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 01, 2015, 03:07:23 PM
This also contradicts
In 4:176 if two sisters the portion is two third.

Not two sisters -- read without verse numbers getting in the way.

If 3+ daughters
4:11 ... فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (f) فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا  third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left

If exactly 2 daughters
4:176 ... ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (i.e. daughters) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)

If exactly 1 daughter
4:11  وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāḥidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half

But what does "over two" means and what is the need to write two unnecessary words when the word Nisa itself means three or more women?

It clarifies depends on context which nisa can pertain to 1+ as example any combination 1+ males and 1+ females...

3:61 فمن so from حاجك argues you فىه in it من from بعد after ما what جاءك came you من from العلم the knowledge فقلت so say عالوا come ندع let ابناءنا sons ours وابناءكم and sons yours ونساءنا and womenfolk ours ونساءكم and womenfolk yours ...

4:176 ... وان and if كانوا kānū /be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine) ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest تضلوا stray ye of والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم knower
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 01, 2015, 08:29:35 PM
If you guys may excuse me for it, I find these inheritance laws pretty much nonsensical. Trying to stuff in mathematical ratios as best as possible within the weird fractions, and extremely unjust at times, having a degree of sexism and not much regard for how things work in reality. One thing I appreciate is the laws giving some priority to parents.

Frankly overall I would expect a God to come up with better than this. An educated adult who have good knowledge of the real world would come up with better laws than these type of laws in the Quran.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 02, 2015, 12:25:49 AM
Quote
If exactly 2 daughters
4:176 ... ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (i.e. daughters) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)

Dear, recheck
There is no mention of daughter in 4:176. It is about a sister, two sisters, siblings comprising men and women.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 02, 2015, 03:13:16 AM
If you guys may excuse me for it, I find these inheritance laws pretty much nonsensical.

Peace -- you are excused. What is nonsensical are god was born absurdities by missionary trolls.

Dear, recheck
There is no mention of daughter in 4:176. It is about a sister, two sisters, siblings comprising men and women.

Dear, is not child mentioned twice in the verse?

4:176 ... وهو and he ىرثها inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (i.e. daughters) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left

Likewise if two sisters explain how to distribute exactly two daughters (where are instructions?) and 3+ sisters no child?


4:11
 فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن ith'natayni/two فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا third dual (1/3*2=2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāḥidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف the half


Lane, An Arabic English Lexicon
? thus one says, العَشَرَةُ فَوْقَ التِّسْعَةِ (Mgh, Msb) i. e. Ten is above nine; meaning ten exceeds nine
... also, in the Kur iii. 12], فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَآءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ (Mgh, Msb) [And if they are women,] exceeding two




Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 02, 2015, 04:00:01 AM
@Noon waalqalami

Peace -- you are excused. What is nonsensical are god was born absurdities by missionary trolls.

Um, what do you mean? You think I am a Christian? I am a woman born in a quite devout Sunni Muslim family. I gave my O Level London Board exam in Islamic Studies too. Just because my opinions may coincide with Christian ones, you would say I am a Christian? Oh man.

This seems to be quite common. A person who criticizes Islam may immediately be labeled as a Christian in disguise, or a person working for the Jews, or never tasted the sweetness of faith in their hearts while being a Muslim, or being grappled by Shaytan. In my case all of these are false. I am simply a truth seeker. And I try to give my honest opinions in several matters. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Noon, I know you spend a lot of time trying to figure out these quranic ayahs letter by letter. I do not criticize your work. I appreciate your will and your intellect. I criticize the writer behind these verses, who would give instructions which make no sense in a civilized progressive world which acknowledges human rights, and is sexist and unrealistic in the share-giving. Surely a just, compassionate and merciful God would have had come up with better than this? Instead of creating such laws and carving them in stone for eternity?

Which is what questions me on the whole scripture on it's authenticity on it's divinity. Or at least whether the Arabic language was ever properly interpreted as was supposed to be. The Old Testament faced distortions on God's word, on being misinterpreted, I am suspecting the Quran may have gone through similar phase as well, however disappointing that may sound to us Muslims.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 02, 2015, 05:35:45 AM
Noon, I know you spend a lot of time trying to figure out these quranic ayahs letter by letter. I do not criticize your work. I appreciate your will and your intellect. I criticize the writer behind these verses, who would give instructions which make no sense in a civilized progressive world which acknowledges human rights, and is sexist and unrealistic in the share-giving. Surely a just, compassionate and merciful God would have had come up with better than this? Instead of creating such laws and carving them in stone for eternity?

Peace Samira1234 -- which are sexist and unrealistic "from after a will one dictates believes is fair" or if one neglects duty to write a will?

4:11
 ىوصىكم instructs you الله the god فى in اولادكم awlādikum/offspring yours للذكر lildhakari/to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

 فان so if كن kunna/be (f/p) نساء nisāan/womenfolk فوق fawqa/above اثنتىن two (f/d) فلهن so for them (f/p i.e. 3+) ثلثا  third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left

 وان and if كانت kānat/be she (f/s) واحده wāḥidatan/one (f/s) فلها so for her النصف al-niṣ'fu/the half

 ولابوىه wali-abawayhi/and to parents dual said person لكل to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kāna/be (m/s) له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (son) فان so if لم not ىكن yakun that be له for said person ولد waladun/offspring (child) وورثه wawarithahu/and bestows to inherit said person ابواه parents dual said person فلامه so to mother said person الثلث the third فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه ikh'watun/brother فلامه so to mother said person السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment

 اباوكم fathers yours وابناوكم and sons yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه obligation من from الله the god ان surely الله the god كان be علىما knowledgeable حكىما wisdom of

4:12
 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left ازواجكم azwājukum/spouses yours ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لهن for them ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كان kāna/be (m/s) لهن for them ولد waladun/offspring (son) فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن left they من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصىن made they بها in it او or دىن judgment

 ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم left you ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لكم for you ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) لكم for you ولد waladun/offspring (son) فلهن so to them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم left you من from بعد after وصىه will توصون thou making بها in it او or دىن judgment

 وان and if كان kāna/be (m/s) رجل rajulun/man ىورث yūrathu/he bestows to inherit كلاله kalalatan (spouse-less without daughter)او or امراه im'ra-atun/woman وله and to said person اخ brother او or اخت sister فلكل so to each واحد one منهما from them dual السدس the sixth فان so if كانوا kānū/be they of (2+) اكثر more من from ذلك such فهم so they شركاء partners فى in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصىه will ىوصى instructs بها in it او or دىن judgment غىر other than مضار harmful وصىه will من from الله the god والله and the god علىم knower حلىم tolerant

4:176
 ىستفتونك they seek ruling your قل say الله the god ىفتىكم gives ruling you فى in الكلاله al-kalalati (the spouseless without daughter) ان if امرو im'ru-on/person هلك perished لىس not له for him ولد waladun/offspring (child) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها yarithuhā/he inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن yakun that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)

 فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (i.e. daughters) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left

 وان and if كانوا kānū /be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk فللذكر falildhakari/so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

 ىبىن shows الله the god لكم for you ان lest/that تضلوا stray ye of والله and the god بكل in every شىء thing علىم knower


(http://oi60.tinypic.com/4g2lbb.jpg)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 02, 2015, 06:47:24 AM
@Noon

Quote
Peace Samira1234 -- which are sexist and unrealistic "from after a will one dictates believes is fair" or if one neglects duty to write a will?

There are may be several reasons why a person may fail to write a will. Accidental death, being unsure over property distribution and facing a sudden death, etc. The highest priority should be given to the spouse and kids, and also a portion to parents. Here the wife gets 1/4th or even 1/8th share if she has kids. Is that fair to him as a wife? And why should a wife get half share compared to husband? That's clearly sexist. Women being frequently left vulnerable due to life situations, raising children and being homemakers, can be left more vulnerable due to these distributions.

And have you taken this portion of verse into account in your calculations:

"...But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate..."

That's another example of sexism in regards to daughters.

Sons get twice that of daughters, no matter what, no matter what at all. Whether the children are married, unmarried, rich, poor, widow, etc. That's another example of sexism.

What if a person only left a spouse as a heir and nobody else? How will the distribution take place?

Seeing your fractions, I know you put a lot of work into them, but they look like you are trying to force fractions into being a complete 1, regardless of the actual justice behind the distributions.

Frankly these shares look outdated, like an ancient inheritance distribution. Bringing ancient patriarchal laws into a timeless society carved in stone. That is a form of injustice by itself.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 02, 2015, 11:37:29 AM
@Noon

There are may be several reasons why a person may fail to write a will. Accidental death, being unsure over property distribution and facing a sudden death, etc. The highest priority should be given to the spouse and kids, and also a portion to parents. Here the wife gets 1/4th or even 1/8th share if she has kids. Is that fair to him as a wife? And why should a wife get half share compared to husband? That's clearly sexist. Women being frequently left vulnerable due to life situations, raising children and being homemakers, can be left more vulnerable due to these distributions.

Yes fair, men have responsibility to support women and wife may re-marry thus major portion is left to children.


Quote
And have you taken this portion of verse into account in your calculations:

"...But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate..."

Yes I've taken into account "every" combination including these three situations...

1.  and if  be she (f/s)  wahidatan/one (f/s)  so for her  the half
2.  so if  be dual (f/d)  ith'natayni/two (f/d)  so to them dual  the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)  from what  left
3.  so if  be (f/p)  nisaan/womenfolk  fawqa/above  ith'natayni/two (f)  so for them   third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3)  what  left

Quote
That's another example of sexism in regards to daughters.

What's sexist about daughters alone getting major share?

Quote
Sons get twice that of daughters, no matter what, no matter what at all. Whether the children are married, unmarried, rich, poor, widow, etc. That's another example of sexism.

Correct, sons are responsible for their mother and/or their sisters until they marry.
Again, if don't like it then don't be lazy with excuses write a will, a partial will, etc.

Quote
What if a person only left a spouse as a heir and nobody else? How will the distribution take place?

Distribution is same if only son or only mother or only father or only sister or only brother; sole inheritor receives the whole; none to contest; no need for distribution laws; to divide something needs minimum two participants.

Quote
Seeing your fractions, I know you put a lot of work into them, but they look like you are trying to force fractions into being a complete 1, regardless of the actual justice behind the distributions.

Frankly these shares look outdated, like an ancient inheritance distribution. Bringing ancient patriarchal laws into a timeless society carved in stone. That is a form of injustice by itself.

Please show an example I'm not adhering to the text and forcing the whole?
What's modern justice women portrayed as sex objects and forced to work?

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 02, 2015, 12:34:18 PM
Quote
4:176 ... وهو and he ىرثها inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child) فان so if كانتا kānatā/be dual اثنتىن ith'natayni/two (i.e. daughters) فلهما so to them dual (f/d) الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما from what ترك left


Dear, there is no daughter in 4:176. Daughter and daughters are mentioned in 4:11.

It is about sisters:

 يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ  فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ  وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاءً فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الْأُنثَيَيْنِ
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 02, 2015, 02:30:12 PM


Dear, there is no daughter in 4:176. Daughter and daughters are mentioned in 4:11.

It is about sisters:

 يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ  فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ  وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاءً فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الْأُنثَيَيْنِ

Dear Mazhar,

Why assume "the two sisters" written thus: الاختىن al-ukh'tayni

When it clearly states -- IF NO CHILD ELSE IF TWO FEMALES?

ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)
فان else if كانتا kānatā/be dual (f) اثنتىن ith'natayni/two females

Again, research exactly "two daughters" and "three or more sisters" and "two or more brothers" no child?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 12:19:00 AM
Dear Mazhar,

Why assume "the two sisters" written thus: الاختىن al-ukh'tayni

When it clearly states -- IF NO CHILD ELSE IF TWO FEMALES?

ان if لم not ىكن that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)
فان else if كانتا kānatā/be dual (f) اثنتىن ith'natayni/two females

Again, research exactly "two daughters" and "three or more sisters" and "two or more brothers" no child?

two sisters is not assumption; two daughters is certainly assumption. Firstly a man-kalala died without a surviving son but one sister is surviving who gets half; similarly if the deceased were this sister without a son his brother will get half. And in case instead of one sister they were two sisters of this man the share will be two third; and if they were brothers and sisters in plural number the share will remain two third and distributed in ratio 2:1.
Particle Fa connects the sentence with single sister sentence.

Dear Noon, please see the difference:

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.12f.gif)

compare with 4:176
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.176d.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/4.176PPP.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/4.176PPQ.gif)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 01:49:03 AM
@Noon

Quote
Yes fair, men have responsibility to support women and wife may re-marry thus major portion is left to children.

That's one-sided reasoning being used here. What about cases where the daughters are grown, can support themselves or get married and the mother is old and/or disabled (like my family's case)? Mother deserves at least quarter to half share, isn't it? That is why a fairer share for everyone should be there to prevent severe injustice for all potential cases.

We live in a Sunni country so writing a will is difficult here. So we have to abide by the Divine Law.

Quote
sole inheritor receives the whole; none to contest; no need for distribution laws; to divide something needs minimum two participants.

Where did you get that from? Is it from the Quran itself?

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 02:28:43 AM
Quote
That's one-sided reasoning being used here. What about cases where the daughters are grown, can support themselves or get married and the mother is old and/or disabled (like my family's case)? Mother deserves at least quarter to half share, isn't it? That is why a fairer share for everyone should be there to prevent severe injustice for all potential cases.

We live in a Sunni country so writing a will is difficult here. So we have to abide by the Divine Law.

Salamun alaiki.

16. Grand Qur'aan is for entire humanity in time line; for men of ordinary prudence, as well for scholars and intelligentsia. Therefore, all its injunctions regarding conduct and relationships need necessarily be simple and understandable for majority, who understand simple mathematics but not advanced calculators and algebra etc. Therefore, we need not act like Diophantus, Hero of Alexandria, or al-Khw?rizm? to understand the injunctions given in the Qur'aan about division and distribution of inheritance since it is mentioned succinctly and explicitly in simple terms. The legal stakeholders for whom Allah the Exalted has apportioned mandatory shares in inheritance are the following:

       (a) Off-springs of parents;

       (b) Parents of offsprings;

       (c) Spouses;

       (3) Siblings; brothers and sisters

Other blood relatives like grand progeny and adopted or under patronage collateral child-person are not allocated any share but it is left to the discretion of deceased to bequeath for them in the left over.

 Inheritance from siblings when died kalala]Inheritance:  Grand Qur'aan, disapproving patrilineal inheritance, declared daughter not Son as the central theme of Inheritance (http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 03:26:41 AM
Hello Mazhar,

If the Quran is supposed to be a timeless piece of guidance for all mankind, reality should also reflect the result of such guidance as well. As in the implementation of the Quran should produce good fruit in society as well, and no solid injustice being caused to any party for whichever case, no matter what reasoning is applied. But then, I see the reverse being true in several of cases. Such as in the case of inheritance. If it was simply said in the Quran that off-springs, spouses, parents and potentially siblings (for absence of the immediate family) are to inherit shares and left at it, it would have been good. Then societies could choose to implement the ratios by themselves however they see fit. But actually specifying fixed ratios for each in the Quran, in an unequal manner between the sexes regardless of whether the men are actually providers for the women or not, is frankly, ridiculous. This is my opinion only.

I find the Quran having a more materialistic position at times instead of a more spiritual position which is actually expected from a God. Such as this verse:

[The Monotheist Group] 3:14 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.

Mentioning desire of women and of having sons, and that they are made as the enjoyment of this world, is incredibly misogynistic. The verse should also have mentioned desire of men (which many of us women struggle from) and of having daughters as well. But then this verse takes a misogynistic and materialistic stand. There are many more verses like this which are incredibly patriarchal and misogynistic and totally unexpected from a just God. These look more like the words of men than of a God. I see similar statements being made in Hadith, but here people laughing them off and calling them evidently the made-up words by man.

If people try to defend these verses, that the desire of women is stronger in men hence mentioned singularly this way, and that people usually want sons rather than daughters, etc, then they should also try to defend the concept of hoor, and of having big-breasted companions (78:33), both of the concepts which are carefully tackled around by the modern Quranist translations.

Unless such verses are completely re-translated, the Muslim world would remain forever patriarchal and misogynistic. And people would keep blaming one another for their problems rather than directly at the very source that they are trying to follow, and getting the due results.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 05:17:06 AM
Quote
But actually specifying fixed ratios for each in the Quran, in an unequal manner between the sexes regardless of whether the men are actually providers for the women or not, is frankly, ridiculous. This is my opinion only.

The ground realities vary for different families. Leaving everything at the judgment of testator, rights of some would be at jeapardy. In inheritance discourse, there is no consideration whether the men are actually providers for the women or not. That is the subject of marriage not inheritance. Husband can inherit from the wealth of wife which obviously shows she was taking care of her own economic activities/status.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: good logic on January 03, 2015, 05:19:13 AM
Peace Samira.

Qoran has two roles. It guides and misguides!!!!

Please allow me to highlight a big misconception you have with Qoran:(verse 3:!4)

This verse addresses "people" who are both genders. So the views you gave in your post are a "misconception" and a lot of misunderstandings?

Think about it ,GOD is addressing "females" as well,so He cannot mean what you suggested.

I have conversed with you in the past. Please also allow me to suggest to you to study Qoran and seek the help of HIS author only, not any translator/other...That is if you want to.

What is most unfair  is to criticise Qoran and HIS author by relying on "corrupt" translations and opinions.

Also I am not defending GOD or Qoran, I am asking for fairness.

How can we expect to be fair if we still have certain "prejudices"/wrong motives...etc. We must start from a clean /sincere point.

Then we can produce our own conclusions after our own checks/hard effort/expertise/studies...etc

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 05:32:08 AM
Quote
[The Monotheist Group] 3:14 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.

Erroneous translation, by not considering syntax, will obviously lead to framing of erroneous perceptions.

In my link it is rather the reason for allocating inheritance.

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.14PPP.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.14PPQ.gif)

The love of sensual excitements felt for some of the women has become alluring for people;

And having sons has become a longing for people.

The Arabic sentence is a compound sentence. Qur'aan is infallible fact. Not all women are sexually attractive for a man.

Because of general tedency of having exceeding love for sons, the inheritance law in Qur'aan is not patrilineal.

Grand Qur'aan, disapproving patrilineal inheritance, declared daughter not Son as the central theme of Inheritance (http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)   
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 03, 2015, 05:49:56 AM
two sisters is not assumption; two daughters is certainly assumption. Firstly a man-kalala died without a surviving son but one sister is surviving who gets half; similarly if the deceased were this sister without a son his brother will get half. And in case instead of one sister they were two sisters of this man the share will be two third; and if they were brothers and sisters in plural number the share will remain two third and distributed in ratio 2:1.
Particle Fa connects the sentence with single sister sentence.

Dear Mazhar,

If two sisters then explain exactly 3+ sisters?
If two sisters then explain exactly 2 daughters?

Last part 4:176 is case (no child) mixed siblings 2:1 ratio any combination...

1 brother 1 sister
1 brother 2 sisters
1 brother 3+ sisters

2 brothers 1 sister
2 brothers 2 sisters
2 brothers 3+ sisters

3+ brothers 1 sister
3+ brothers 2 sisters
3+ brothers 3+ sisters

Not sure where you get "the share will remain two third and distributed in ratio 2:1" when it precisely states...

4:176   فان so if كانتا be dual اثنتىن two (i.e. exactly two females) فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)

@Noon

That's one-sided reasoning being used here. What about cases where the daughters are grown, can support themselves or get married and the mother is old and/or disabled (like my family's case)? Mother deserves at least quarter to half share, isn't it? That is why a fairer share for everyone should be there to prevent severe injustice for all potential cases.

We live in a Sunni country so writing a will is difficult here. So we have to abide by the Divine Law.

Where did you get that from? Is it from the Quran itself?

Dear Samira1234 what if this what if that ? play me world's smallest violin. Albania or Bangladesh, figure it out take care of your mother.

Likewise Qur?an warns of dire consequences messing with inheritance ?don?t even think about it!?

4:6 وابتلوا and test ye of الىتامى the bereaved حتى until اذا when بلغوا attained they النكاح the marriage فان so if انستم perceive you منهم from them رشدا rational فادفعوا so deliver ye of الىهم to them اموالهم wealth theirs ولا and not تاكلوها eats/consumes ye it اسرافا wastefully وبدارا and hastily of ان lest/that ىكبروا grow up they of ومن and who كان be غنىا ample of فلىستعفف so should refrain ومن and who كان be فقىرا in need of فلىاكل so let eat/consume بالمعروف in the right فاذا so when دفعتم deliver you الىهم to them اموالهم wealth theirs فاشهدوا so witnesses ye of علىهم on/over them وكفى and sufficient بالله in the god حسىبا reckoner of
4:7 للرجال to the menfolk نصىب share مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives وللنساء and for the womenfolk نصىب share مما from what ترك left الوالدان the parents والاقربون and the close relatives مما from what قل small منه from it او or كثر large نصىبا share of مفروضا obligatory
4:8 واذا and when حضر comes القسمه the division اولو possessors القربى the relatives/near والىتامى and the bereaved والمساكىن and the needy فارزقوهم so provide ye them منه from it وقولوا and speak ye of لهم for them قولا speech of معروفا rightful
4:9 ولىخش and let fear/be mindful/concerned الذىن the ones لو in case تركوا left they of من from خلفهم behind them ذرىه descendant ضعافا weak خافوا fear/concerned they of علىهم over them فلىتقوا so let fear/be mindful they of الله the god ولىقولوا and to says they of قولا speech of سدىدا appropriate
4:10 ان surely الذىن the ones ىاكلون eating/consuming اموال wealth الىتامى the bereaved ظلما injustice of انما only ىاكلون eating/consuming فى in بطونهم interior of body theirs نارا fire of وسىصلون and shall be burning سعىرا blaze of
4:11 ىوصىكم instructs you الله the god فى in اولادكم awlādikum/offspring yours ...



Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 07:23:41 AM
Quote
The ground realities vary for different families.

That is right. Which is why I mentioned a more fair distribution of inheritance in general which would prevent severe injustice for the majority of the range of cases would be good. And which is why fixating ratios for each person, and that too in unequal proportions for each gender in particular, for eternity for ALL circumstances, ALL types of societies, and ALL ages throughout is a bad idea.

Quote
In inheritance discourse, there is no consideration whether the men are actually providers for the women or not. That is the subject of marriage not inheritance.

Spot on. I have no idea why people keep bringing "women get provided by other men" type reasoning, without seeing the broad range of real world cases that are actually possible and is happening. I see real life cases which do not follow such ideal case, of women having in-built good and generous providers all of the time, is actually the majority.

Quote
Husband can inherit from the wealth of wife which obviously shows she was taking care of her own economic activities/status.

That's true. People's one-sided justifications seem laughable at times. I am sorry. I know everybody is on the same path. Most people here are good people, who are trying their best to understand and follow God's word. However, I read these lines of wisdom from a great spiritual teacher: "Our thoughts, feelings and observance of real world evidence should be given higher priority than written words (such as in scripture), which can be more easily misunderstood and tampered with by human beings. Our thoughts, feelings and real world evidence are a more direct channel of God's expression than written words, which are actually the least reliable of all of them." I understand that many a time though it is easier said than done. Scripture can contain timeless wisdom for everybody, but it shouldn't be taken so much at face value at the cost of injustice to other people, and intentionally shutting off our conscience and reasoning to keep abiding by those words.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: hawk99 on January 03, 2015, 07:38:44 AM


If the Quran is supposed to be a timeless piece of guidance for all mankind, reality should also reflect the result of such guidance as well. As in the implementation of the Quran should produce good fruit in society as well, and no solid injustice being caused to any party for whichever case, no matter what reasoning is applied. But then, I see the reverse being true in several of cases. Such as in the case of inheritance. If it was simply said in the Quran that off-springs, spouses, parents and potentially siblings (for absence of the immediate family) are to inherit shares and left at it, it would have been good. Then societies could choose to implement the ratios by themselves however they see fit. But actually specifying fixed ratios for each in the Quran, in an unequal manner between the sexes regardless of whether the men are actually providers for the women or not, is frankly, ridiculous. This is my opinion only.

I find the Quran having a more materialistic position at times instead of a more spiritual position which is actually expected from a God. Such as this verse:

[The Monotheist Group] 3:14 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.

Mentioning desire of women and of having sons, and that they are made as the enjoyment of this world, is incredibly misogynistic. The verse should also have mentioned desire of men (which many of us women struggle from) and of having daughters as well. But then this verse takes a misogynistic and materialistic stand. There are many more verses like this which are incredibly patriarchal and misogynistic and totally unexpected from a just God. These look more like the words of men than of a God. I see similar statements being made in Hadith, but here people laughing them off and calling them evidently the made-up words by man.

If people try to defend these verses, that the desire of women is stronger in men hence mentioned singularly this way, and that people usually want sons rather than daughters, etc, then they should also try to defend the concept of hoor, and of having big-breasted companions (78:33), both of the concepts which are carefully tackled around by the modern Quranist translations.

Unless such verses are completely re-translated, the Muslim world would remain forever patriarchal and misogynistic. And people would keep blaming one another for their problems rather than directly at the very source that they are trying to follow, and getting the due results.

Peace.

Peace Samira1234


What is your opinion of Islam?


What is your opinion of the Quran?


What is your opinion of Allah?


What I see so far in your posts are:


1.  Doubt

2.  Disbelief

3.  Know better than Allah

4.  Disdain

5.  Criticizing Allah

6.  Unable to understand context



Hey guys!  :D

I saw this video on Sam Harris commenting regarding the mindset of Muslims, and on Quran and Hadith.
He is a famous atheist by the way, who commented on
quite a lot of religions. I found his points to be quite honest and straightforward. What do you guys
have to say? I am very curious to know you guys' opinions. Thanks a lot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CeiO-v8D1E

To ask an atheist about the deen is akin to: Asking a Nazi about Jews.

God bless

   :peace:






Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 07:43:32 AM
@Mazhar

Quote
The Arabic sentence is a compound sentence. Qur'aan is infallible fact. Not all women are sexually attractive for a man.

I do not understand. The verse clearly says:

3:14 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.

I do not understand how this verse could have anything to do with inheritance. It is mentioning the general likes of people. And by the way, there are people who favour daughters more than sons. This verse is either meant for the ancient centuries or is a misinterpreted verse. I can't imagine a God speaking this way. And if people interpret it in a different way, I want to see how they broke down that particular word to come up with their interpretation.

Quote
Because of general tedency of having exceeding love for sons, the inheritance law in Qur'aan is not patrilineal.

How much more patrilineal can the inheritance laws be? Such as by not giving any share to women at all? If a person gives this reasoning to Western and European countries, or even a number of other non-Muslim countries, he or she should be prepared to get laughed at and removed out. I am sorry, I am just saying how it is. And no, not all non-Muslim countries have women who are forced to go to work, or are treated as sex objects. Muslims have to give any number of reasoning to abide by the words of the Quran which they cannot interpret in any other way.

@good logic

Quote
What is most unfair  is to criticise Qoran and HIS author by relying on "corrupt" translations and opinions.

Also I am not defending GOD or Qoran, I am asking for fairness.

How can we expect to be fair if we still have certain "prejudices"/wrong motives...etc. We must start from a clean /sincere point.

Hello good logic, I understand your sincerity. I am trying to be fair as well. What I have seen, the Quranists first declared Hadith as being corrupt. Then they trying to squirm around certain verses which they could find an alternate meaning for, or a softer meaning. Then when they are stuck, and the words mean what they mean, they hold on to them like life and death, and will give any number of one-sided reasoning to justify them, and shut off a part of their conscience for them. This I do not find fair. I do not find them honest in this regard. The same words in another context besides the Quran would have gotten ousted already. And our countries will always remain backwards for as long as we have this kind of mindset, which I am worried about. I am just saying.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 08:03:44 AM
Quote
I do not understand. The verse clearly says:

3:14 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.


The love of sensual excitements felt for some of the women has become alluring for people;

And having sons has become a longing for people.

So has become the desire to have a state of hoarded abundance of Gold and Silver;

And the marked-pedigree horses [top of the line products], and abundance of herbivore-mammals, and for plenty of harvesting lands.

This is the wealth-sustenance-provision of the transitory worldly life.

Mind it that Allah the Exalted grants the most appropriate return and abode by His Grace. [3:14]

The first verb is passive, denoting something that has become alluring, whose proxy subject is sensual excitements and longing for sons; and love of wealth.
Allah the Exalted is telling about the general psyche of people. When this is pysche of majority of people, what makes you to believe that people will be just if things are left to them to decide about inheritance?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 03, 2015, 08:11:52 AM
I find the Quran having a more materialistic position at times instead of a more spiritual position which is actually expected from a God. Such as this verse:

[The Monotheist Group] 3:14 ...

Peace, "instead of a more spirtual position" that's how you read?

3:14-17 زىن beautified للناس to the humankind حب love الشهوات the lusts من from النساء the womenfolk والبنىن and the sons والقناطىر and the heaps المقنطره the stored up من from الذهب the gold والفضه and the silver والخىل and the horses المسومه the branded والانعام and the cattle والحرث and the harvest ذلكم such yours تاع provision الحىاه the life الدنىا the world والله and the god عنده before him حسن best الماب the place of return قل say اونبىكم shall I inform you بخىر in better من from ذلكم such yours للذىن to the those اتقو fear اعند near ربهم lord theirs جنات gardens تجرى flow من from تحتها beneath it الانهار the springs خالدىن eternally live فىها therein وازواج and spouses مطهره purified ورضوان and approval من from الله the god والله and the god بصىر seer بالعباد in the servants الذىن the ones ىقولون are saying ربنا lord ours اننا surely we امنا believe we فاغفر so forgive لنا for us ذنوبنا sins ours وقنا and save us عذاب punishment النار the fire الصابرىن the steadfast والصادقىن and the sincere والقانتىن and the obedient والمنفقىن and the who spend والمستغفرىن and the who ask forgiveness بالاسحار in/by the dawn

Applicable then as now; interesting was actually thinking to get one of these today (the car lol).

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SHIBzBp9nNE/UEAmyN6o3gI/AAAAAAAAThE/MVf3RvqULaQ/s1600/9+%28Custom%29.jpg)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: good logic on January 03, 2015, 08:12:20 AM
Peace Samira.

Thanks for your reply.
I suppose that is fair enough.

It is better to search for our own understanding of everything that is going to make a difference to how we live our lives.

Each of us will have to strive to satisfy their own mind. Living in doubt and/ or accepting nonsense are two bad options.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 08:23:36 AM
Hello hawk99,

Quote
Peace Samira1234


What is your opinion of Islam?


What is your opinion of the Quran?


What is your opinion of Allah?


I am a truth seeker at this point. I have been a devoutly religious Muslimah all my life. Although also highly curious and wanting to go to the heart of matters at times to get to the truth, instead of splashing around in the surface. Many of my relatives in my mother's side grew more religious after observing me. I had always wondered though why people call Islam the best religion, or the most peaceful religion, etc.

I am comfortable with a lot of parts of Islam. I wear the hijab (although I know it is not necessary), keep my modesty, etc. I went out to seek Islam's truth to find out how I can use the religion as a beacon of light to illuminate the world and humanity further. And to be more comfortable to teach Islam to my kids once I do get married and have kids.

I found a number of progressive and good teachings within Islam, which I abide by to be a better human being and person. But then to think of it, every religion has it's own set of unique good teachings. I need to see the whole picture to make a better informed decision regarding the religion.

I found contradiction between verse 2:256 and chapter 9. Chapter 9 is clearly coercing polytheists in matters of faith. I do not know how to see it otherwise.

I had posted this earlier to another person regarding my issues with the Quran:

"Yeah I have issues directly with the Quran, according to current interpretations at least. Seeing the hundreds and hundreds of verses cursing, mocking and threatening "unbelievers", "rejectors", "ingrates", to boil, cut, chop, roast and bake people simply for not believing (e,g: verses 22:19-22); the misogyny such as polygamy, half testimony, lesser inheritance, dealing with disloyal wives etc; racism regarding Arabs (9:97); giving freedom to choose religion and after that immediately threatening "rejectors" to hell for eternity hence using fear-based tactics (2:256-257); cursing at Jews and Christians and telling Muslims not to take the rejectors as allies (9:30, 3:28); calling polytheists as impure (9:28); giving instructions how to mutilate the enemy during war (8:12); giving harsh punishments for adultery and lewdness (24:2, 4:15); Islam being incompatible with secularism and democracy (8:39, 4:59, 5:44); one time saying Allah misleads people by making their deeds pleasing to them, another time saying it is Satan who does the exact same thing (27:4, 13:33, 6:43, 8:48, 16:63); confusing verses regarding free will (13:11, 16:93, 2:6-7, 7:178-179, 14:4, 4:88)."

Also I am finding a few grammatical, language and logical errors slowly within the Quran. For example, this may look very simple, but we can't expect a God to make even such a simple language mistake:

39:53 Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

The verse begins with 'Say', which means whatever is after that, is what Muhammad is supposed to be saying to his people. And the people he definitely didn't call them HIS servants. But this verse makes the language and logical error by saying "O MY servants..." immediately after the word "Say". It should have been written 'Say: "O Allah's servants..." '.

That's one example. There is more as well.

Anyway, if taken literally the Quran with it's current interpretations most definitely cannot be the word of God. I am suspecting some tampering took place. Like it took place for the Old Testament. Either it got thoroughly misinterpreted, or the Arabic text itself got distorted. There are a couple of people I am chatting with who are also raising similar concerns and ideas. Otherwise after doing some more research, I might have to leave Islam. I have no choice. Just because I like some parts of the Quran doesn't mean I will try to ruin the lives of myself and others by holding on to it as a whole.

What I feel surprised though is how ardently Muslims would hold on to the Quran, no matter how absurd some things within might be. One person told me even if he had to kill his child to obey Allah's orders in the Quran, he would do so, because that is what Abraham did with his son. Um. He also told me that only God could decide how progressive or just a society could be, and I don't have a say to it over the text of God. Basically I feel many Muslims sacrifice a part of their conscience and reasoning to justify holding onto the Quran. A person told me it is because many Muslims have an innate feeling regarding the authenticity of the Quran, and many also want to hold on to a convenient organized moral system to abide by. Which is why they would get highly defensive and block off reasoning regarding the Quran.

Quote
To ask an atheist about the deen is akin to: Asking a Nazi about Jews.

Even if atheism is illogical to me, the one advantage of being an atheist is that for the first time ever you get to have a cleaner conscience and reasoning minus the religious indoctrination. So they get to speak from a level of honesty and clearer mindset that is absent in many religious people. Which is why I appreciate listening to them. I don't agree with a lot of what the atheists may say. In case of Sam Harris, I agree with a number of his points, and I disagree with some others. In case of his commentary regarding Islam though, he made a lot of valid points, which is why I had posted the video earlier.

Anyway, these are just my words.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 08:39:58 AM
@Noon

Quote
Applicable then as now; interesting was actually thinking to get one of these today (the car lol).

So according to you, there are two options: either give women unequal rights, or give them equal rights and also treat them like sex objects. Maybe we can take a look at Iceland. Iceland is one of the countries in the world that has repeatedly topped lists on being one of the most women-friendly countries in the world, such as in terms of health, education, workplace, etc. Also Iceland is the first country in the world to ban stripping and lapdancing, for feminist, rather than religious, reasons. Kolbr?n Halld?rsd?ttir, the politician who first proposed the ban, firmly told the national press: "It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold."

The country is now looking at restricting hardcore and violent porn, for the same reasons. It is frequently called one of the most feminist countries in the world. And it is a developed and peaceful country too. Australia is another country with advancing women's rights. Here is a video talking on them by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an ex-Muslim woman, which would put a lot of Muslim countries to shame:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEc7kfPuUVU

Although I like Iceland's position better, at least for now. So yeah, giving more equal rights does not need to mean we need to start looking at women as sex objects. Or force them to work. Perhaps we Muslims can even set an example in terms of protecting women and also giving them equal rights. We don't need to go from one end to another end, but find more of a balance which creates minimal injustice to everyone involved.

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 08:45:10 AM

Dear Noon, please reconcile calculations in respect of one sister:

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.12f.gif)

compare with 4:176
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.176d.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/4.176PPP.gif)
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/4.176PPQ.gif)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 08:48:22 AM
I am myself very, very doubtful about what has been made out traditionnally of the provisions of the Qur'an regarding inheritance. I daoubt very much that we have readlly made out what they relly say. It would be nothing new. There are many things that have been made out out of texts of the Qur'an that once one gets the initiative to look at them objectively and rigorously turn out to say even the opposite of the commongly admitted stance, even to make that stance as ridiculous as it really is.

I have nto bothered for a long time with inheritance questions, because I was too much conditionned and too dep in in the usual understanding to be able to make out anything independent. I do not take anything for guaranteed, but I do have the gut feeling that there is something else to it, something we just do not get because we are blinded, probably to something so plan that we do nto realise it, like witht he famous hidden letter under plain view.

There is no question that the "classical" view is unacceptable. -Besides, the logic that has been putported to underlie it and legitimize it is not such logical but blatant distortion or hypocritical attitude, depending ont he intention. For honest people must have been a reminder to mke an effort to redres whatever torts might occur because of that outlook. For les honest people it was a rainfall of goodies to eliminate competitors for inheritance.

The question is that when it is said that on the men falls the sustenance of the family, it is taken for granted that that works for absolutely every male and for no woman at all, and that therefore, all males, all of them, no exception are entitled to extra rights for inheritance and all women, no matter how burdened are "entitled" to be dispossessed in thesame amoun that their male comoetitors are "gidted" with those extra rights, even if a woman for instance, works from sun to sun and more, in the fields outside the home and then also in the home and no man works for her, even she workes for her men, etc.  THAT STANCE IS A REAL JOKE. It bases the rights of males on theory and the forces the lack of rights on women who do not see at all at work the theory that they are supported for free by their men. A wholly win-win situation for them mles and a wholly lose-lose situation for women.

I must say I thank God there are no such inheritance laws in my country. If after being exploited by brothers many years in A life, now I was going to get half of what they get, I would indeed be very, very, very indignant. Which could have happenned. Because even the laws did not provide for that I have known of many cases in the past where parents distribute inheritance when alive and generously give everything away to males and women got very little or nothing, depending on the moral quality of the family members. So in fact, when one wants to be unfair, one can manage it even with fair laws, and I suppose it also works the other way, but of course the laws are there to sway those in the middle and give the average.


One thing is for sure, in aya 4.11 an "only" is inserted before "daughters" in translations which most certainly is not there. And that "only" is a give away of how the trick is going to be played out to divest women without much trouble. It is not the fault of the Qur'an but the fault of the mindsets of people, whether intentionnally or otherwise.

Salaam 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 09:20:40 AM
Hello huruf,

Quote
I daoubt very much that we have readlly made out what they relly say. It would be nothing new. There are many things that have been made out out of texts of the Qur'an that once one gets the initiative to look at them objectively and rigorously turn out to say even the opposite of the commongly admitted stance, even to make that stance as ridiculous as it really is.

Yeah that's true. I would say the Quran in many ways reminds me of the Old Testament. I have spotted a number of linguistic gymnastics and deliberate misinterpretations in Edip's translation as well, to soften the harsh tone of the Quran, to completely change the meaning of certain words, and also add a word here and there or so.

Even a number of so-called scientific claims within the Quran are being steadily debunked already by rational critics.

Quote
I have nto bothered for a long time with inheritance questions, because I was too much conditionned and too dep in in the usual understanding to be able to make out anything independent.

That has been 100% my case as well. Religious indoctrination is difficult to deal with. Sometimes when people simply have not much choice, or are truth seekers at heart, they keep pushing against the tide in order to spot hidden truths, whatever they may be.

Quote
There is no question that the "classical" view is unacceptable. -Besides, the logic that has been putported to underlie it and legitimize it is not such logical but blatant distortion or hypocritical attitude, depending ont he intention. For honest people must have been a reminder to mke an effort to redres whatever torts might occur because of that outlook. For les honest people it was a rainfall of goodies to eliminate competitors for inheritance.

To a sensible, logical person who is not indoctrinated, a whole number of things in the Quran itself would start appearing irrational and unforgivingly unjust.

Quote
The question is that when it is said that on the men falls the sustenance of the family, it is taken for granted that that works for absolutely every male and for no woman at all, and that therefore, all males, all of them, no exception are entitled to extra rights for inheritance and all women, no matter how burdened are not "entitled" to be dispossessed in thesame amoun that their male comoetitors are "gidted" with those extra rights, even if a woman for instance, works from sun to sun and more, in the fields outside the home and then also in the home and no man works for her, even she workes for her men, etc. THAT STANCE IS A REAL JOKE.

Yeah. If that is not unjust and sexism in the face, I don't know what is.

Quote
the theory that they are supported for free by their men

You would see men telling women to be oh-so-grateful for the scraps of rights they get because they are being provided for, as though women don't do much otherwise.

Quote
I must say I thank God there are no such inheritance laws in my country. If after being exploited by brothers many years in A life, now I was going to get half of what they get, I would indeed be very, very, very indignant. Which could have happenned.

You are lucky. In my country we are stuck with such laws. My parents had some of the biggest fights on basis of such inheritance laws. Since we are only daughters, a share would go to my father's siblings as well, according to the law.

Quote
One thing is for sure, in aya 4.11 an "only" is inserted before "daughters" in translations which most certainly is not there. And that "only" is a give away of how the trick is going to be plqur'an but ayed out to divest women without much trouble.

I haven't seen that. I would take a look at it. It is mainly Edip's translation and a number of other modern Quran translations which do not put the word "only" in brackets, or put it in the first place.

Quote
It is not the fault of the Qur'an but the fault of the mindsets of people, whether intentionnally or otherwise.

We keep trying to defend the Quran. I used to blame people too but I stopped now. Why not see the Quran as to what it is? Using traditional Arabic dictionary, the Quran is actually harsher in it's original Arabic language. It's not people's fault; the Quran itself is a tedious and unclear book, which sometimes can be interpreted in a number of ways, and is quite confusing in general. It is absurd that over a billion Muslims would have wrong intentions regarding translating the Quran. Makes no sense. More likely they are confused regarding the book. Which means there is either something wrong in the method of interpretation, or the Arabic dictionaries are messed up, or is divinely inspired and modified later, or the Quran is not from God but made by man. Either one.

Man of Faith has a different way of interpreting the text, in a letter-by-letter way, which is what he said the Quran was originally intended to be translated as. He says the letters at the beginning of several Surahs are giveaway to that the Quran was supposed to be interpreted that way. If it wasn't for him and a couple others, I would have distanced myself from Islam already.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: hawk99 on January 03, 2015, 09:44:53 AM
Peace Samira1234

Thank you for taking the time to reply.  What I conclude at this juncture is your misunderstanding of the
Quranic text.  Not in a restricted sense but in a broad sweeping conclusion of the message.  Example,
the allegorical description of hell (e,g: verses 22:19-22)  for those who feud (opponents) of Allah and
die in that state will not be close to Allah in the next life, neither do folks such as Sam Harris care to be
close to Allah, they prefer to be away from Allah, and that distance is hell in the next life.  I Consider
your conclusions on many of the ayats you quoted also to be a misunderstanding of the Quran.


God bless you

    :peace:
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
Hello hawk99,

Quote
Thank you for taking the time to reply.  What I conclude at this juncture is your misunderstanding of the Quranic text.

That's a MAJOR misunderstanding there then. Not just from my side but countless other people's.

Quote
Example,
the allegorical description of hell for those who feud (opponents) of Allah and die in that state will not be
close to Allah in the next life, neither do folks such as Sam Harris care to be close to Allah, they prefer
to be away from Allah, and that distance is hell in the next life.

In other words you turned many of the Quran's words into metaphors and allegory. I don't know how you are translating the Quran though. The descriptions of Hell in the Quran are quite vivid and obvious, in every translation, even the foods the people in Hell would eat, and how they would be tortured. I really don't want to see any more of linguistic gymnastics being at play. People like Sam Harris are honest and clear in their explanations.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 03, 2015, 10:05:03 AM
@Noon

So according to you, there are two options: either give women unequal rights, or give them equal rights and also treat them like sex objects.

Dear Samira -- according to me what/where exactly what are you saying?

Thread is on inheritance let's stay on topic; you brought up 3:14 and I posted rest of text.


Dear Mazhar -- let's not revolve in circles please answer simple question posted to you?

4:176   فان so if كانتا be dual اثنتىن two (i.e. exactly two females) فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)

If two sisters then explain exactly 3+ sisters?
If two sisters then explain exactly 2 daughters?

Likewise explain difference sister 4:12 and sister 4:176 -- examples to distribute according to you which verses?

mother, 3 sisters, 2 daughters
mother, 2 sisters, 3 daughters

wife, 3 sisters, 2 daughters
wife, 2 sisters, 3 daughters

wife, mother, father, 3 sisters, 2 daughters
wife, mother, father, 2 sisters, 3 daughters

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 10:07:08 AM
Quote
The country is now looking at restricting hardcore and violent porn, for the same reasons. It is frequently called one of the most feminist countries in the world.

This is also not a favour to women. This has created a problem for men. That is why they want to stop it.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 10:11:21 AM
Quote
Dear Mazhar -- let's not revolve in circles please answer simple question posted to you?

4:176   فان so if كانتا be dual اثنتىن two (i.e. exactly two females) فلهما so to them dual الثلثان the third each (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3)

If two sisters then explain exactly 3+ sisters?
If two sisters then explain exactly 2 daughters?

Dear not revolving in circles. I am not talking about daughters; I am talking about one sister mentioned in 4:12 and 4:176. What is your formula 1/6th or 1/2?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: hawk99 on January 03, 2015, 10:17:01 AM
Hello hawk99,

That's a MAJOR misunderstanding there then. Not just from my side but countless other people's.


True

Hello hawk99,

In other words you turned many of the Quran's words into metaphors and allegory.

Not many.

See 14/18, 2/26, 13/35, 24/35, 24/40, 29/41, 47/15,

God bless you

   :peace:
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 03, 2015, 10:22:56 AM
Dear not revolving in circles. I am not talking about daughters; I am talking about one sister mentioned in 4:12 and 4:176. What is your formula 1/3rd or 1/2?

4:12 if kalala with child/son sister = 1/6
4:176 if kalala case no child sister = 1/2

see distribution summary posted earlier...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.msg360442#msg360442

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 10:42:54 AM
@Noon

Quote
Dear Samira -- according to me what/where exactly what are you saying?

Thread is on inheritance let's stay on topic; you brought up 3:14 and I posted rest of text.

The verse 3:14 on desire of women and of sons is misogynistic, and also only acknowledges men in the verse. Women also struggle from desire of men. And people can want to have daughters as well, not just sons. The desire of sons being a part of man, and lust for women being strong in men and hence worth quoting singularly, means God made people misogynistic by nature and patriarchal. And women's desire for men are not worth quoting as well on, since it is apparently more negligible comparatively. Basically such wording in the verse looks nonsensical. Sorry, just saying it like it is.

@Mazhar

Quote
This is also not a favour to women. This has created a problem for men. That is why they want to stop it.

It is the women and feminist organizations in Iceland who promoted closing strip clubs and regulating hardcore and violent porn. Men never raised such issues themselves. The reason was not religious or because men raised it, but for purely feminist reasons. They even said men just have to deal with it because of such limits being put by law, and on that women are not sex objects after all. It is the only country in the world to have such reasoning for putting such laws, which is that too non-religious.

@hawk99

Why did you quote those hand-picked verses? There are many other verses which clearly state the evident punishment in a lake of fire in the Hereafter. What do you have to say on verses 22:19-22, 69:30-37, 44:43-48? Those are some fearful verses themselves, with clear descriptions regarding treatment in Hell, and the food served there. Please talk on the verses I quoted, instead of other verses and turning everything into allegories.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 10:44:42 AM


We keep trying to defend the Quran. I used to blame people too but I stopped now. Why not see the Quran as to what it is? Using traditional Arabic dictionary, the Quran is actually harsher in it's original Arabic language. It's not people's fault; the Quran itself is a tedious and unclear book, which sometimes can be interpreted in a number of ways, and is quite confusing in general. It is absurd that over a billion Muslims would have wrong intentions regarding translating the Quran. Makes no sense. More likely they are confused regarding the book. Which means there is either something wrong in the method of interpretation, or the Arabic dictionaries are messed up, or is divinely inspired and modified later, or the Quran is not from God but made by man. Either one.

Man of Faith has a different way of interpreting the text, in a letter-by-letter way, which is what he said the Quran was originally intended to be translated as. He says the letters at the beginning of several Surahs are giveaway to that the Quran was supposed to be interpreted that way. If it wasn't for him and a couple others, I would have distanced myself from Islam already.

Peace.


I completely disagree on this. I defend the Qur'an 100% and it is not the Qur'an IT IS PEOPLE  and their short sightedness or blindness or self-inderest or self delusions what is wrong.

Do they think that god has got a special relationship with males like that between USA and Israel?  There is no such thing and I am sorry if you have got sold on a figment of Qur'an to "male" size, but I am afraid that would be it, a figment.

The Qur'an hs not yet dissapointed me as to my aspirations for truth and for justice, but I see that many women are caught in a circle of anger where they vent their frustrations on a book which clearly they do not understand. Because if they understood, they would stop being angry and start feeling self assured and at peace with themselves. God is not their enemy, nor their task master, but their steadfastest friend. God loves women. Look, look in the Qur'an for an equivalent of the temptress  Eve, cause of the Fall, for for an obscure virgin Mary. The Maryam in the Qur'an is not presented as a virgin butas a prophet and as a real courageous and noble woman, not a word of anger in the Qur'an against women. Not one. The harshest you get is about the wife of Abu lahab, and then the husband gets even worse. Noe even about Lut's or Nuh's wives are harsh words spent beyond stating sparsely the facts that they choose to stay behind.

Look at the events between yusuf and his boss's wife and the women. Even though she tries to seduce him, no harsh word against her nor against the women who are charmed by Yusuf. You read and you feel that God rather than angry with them, in fact understands them nd does not blame them. And by the way, you see the exampple of a man who makes women fall because of his beauty, but no woman ever does that to any man in the Qur'an and in spite of it you get all that crap about hijab for the sake of male virtue. Who does that? The Qur'an? and you get angry with the Qur'an and not with people.. What do you need?

As to science... There is nothing wrong with the Qur'an unless of course you should want that it got uptdated very year with the latest scientifical terminology in English for its text. And what for, it si much better than that. Thos who do wrong are those who try to match it with the latest Discovery, which may be a real one or just a provisional one or a fashion. That again is not the Qur'an fault, but people's fault. And also the fault of people that think that if they do not understand everything in the qur'an, which at this stage in develo,pment we alredy know EVERYTHING,  y we do no readily see in the Qur'an with oroper scientifical modern terms, then it is wrong...

Some common sense is not out of place most of the time, with the Qur'an, with science or purported science or with whatever...
 
Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 10:49:46 AM
@Noon

The verse 3:14 on desire of women and of sons is misogynistic, and also only acknowledges men in the verse. Women also struggle from desire of men. And people can want to have daughters as well, not just sons. The desire of sons being a part of man, and lust for women being strong in men and hence worth quoting singularly, means God made people misogynistic by nature and patriarchal. And women's desire for men are not worth quoting as well on, since it is apparently more negligible comparatively. Basically such wording in the verse looks nonsensical. Sorry, just saying it like it is.

@Mazhar

It is the women and feminist organizations in Iceland who promoted closing strip clubs and regulating hardcore and violent porn. Men never raised such issues themselves. The reason was not religious or because men raised it, but for purely feminist reasons. They even said men just have to deal with it because of such limits being put by law, and on that women are not sex objects after all. It is the only country in the world to have such reasoning for putting such laws, which is that too non-religious.

@hawk99

Why did you quote those hand-picked verses? There are many other verses which clearly state the evident punishment in a lake of fire in the Hereafter. What do you have to say on verses 22:19-22, 69:30-37, 44:43-48? Those are some fearful verses themselves, with clear descriptions regarding treatment in Hell, and the food served there. Please talk on the verses I quoted, instead of other verses and turning everything into allegories.

Peace.

Arn't you contradicting yourslef?

Why does the Qur'an point that out about the craving for women sons, and so one, because that is one of the failures of wonrg males, who see women as a mark of success, and not as sentient beings, or sons as equally a mark of success and not their progeny and charge... You get angry against the Qur'an whether it does what you yourself would want to do ot not.

Be logical a little and not so prejudiced. You are prpecisely suporting those you pretend you are struggling against. You are telling them that they are right, that they have all foundation for doing what they do.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 11:17:29 AM
@huruf

Quote
I completely disagree on this. I defend the Qur'an 100% and it is not the Qur'an IT IS PEOPLE  and their short sightedness or blindness or self-inderest or self delusions what is wrong.

Do they think that god has got a special relationship with males like that between USA and Israel?  There is no such thing and I am sorry if you have got sold on a figment of Qur'an to "male" size, but I am afraid that would be it, a figment.

You are romanticising on the Quran's words, and it's opinion regarding women. Apparently over a billion people, many of them being good people, are ALL misogynistic, for translating the Quran in a certain way. Edip actually tried to make it more feminist, but his softening of the Quran's original Arabic text, adding extra words, even changing some of the words become apparent for a more eagle-eyed reader.

How would you interpret the inheritance and the half testimony verses otherwise?

By the way another misogynistic example I can point: there is a list of names of males in the Quran, but not a single female's name apart from Maryam is present. Only one female name versus a list of males' names. All other names that we know of, even of Eve, is due to the Bible. Women are usually called "wife of...", "daughter of...", "queen of...", etc. Even the queen of Sheba in Surah Naml is not called by name. People try to excuse this by saying women's chastity is being protected here. Which is quite irrational, since Maryam's name is repeated 34 times in the Quran and there is even a surah named under her. Which actually makes it more detrimental, since apparently her chastity is not bothered about.

Some say the past was patriarchal. Well, apparently in this regard the ancient religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, were non-patriarchal, since they equally mentioned men and women's names and each one's contributions. Even the Bible has names of female prophetesses, which the Quran doesn't. And this is worrisome regarding the Quran, since it is supposed to be a scripture for all of eternity.

And where did you get that Maryam is a Prophet? Is it mentioned in the Quran?

Quote
The Qur'an hs not yet dissapointed me as to my aspirations for truth and for justice

The overall content has disappointed me quite miserably. By the way I didn't make too many verses as allegories, so I am not sure on other readers' points of view. In your case you seem to be cherry-picking the verses that make sense to you, and see the rest with rose-coloured lenses.

Quote
Because if they understood, they would stop being angry and start feeling self assured and at peace with themselves.

I wish someone would rationally make me understand, regarding the whole of the Quran's verses, such as on women's position. In that case they would also change the mindset of countless other people.

Quote
As to science... There is nothing wrong with the Qur'an unless of course you should want that it got uptdated very year with the latest scientifical terminology in English for its text. And what for, it si much better than that. Thos who do wrong are those who try to match it with the latest Discovery, which may be a real one or just a provisional one or a fashion.

A number of Quran's critics have already debunked a number of the Quran's verses regarding it's scientific claims. By the way what Muslims do, they see existing science, and then try to match it up with the Quran's verses, and then claim science. I have been seeing how minor words have been changed over time to suit the existing science.

The Quran has some of the most unclear verses ever possible, which can be interpreted in a number of ways. Why not make things crystal clear, instead of sounding allegorical or severely unclear, hence confusing people? And by the way if the Quran contained so much science, Muslims were supposed to be the foremost among science in the world, isn't it? But we see the reverse. They are among the most backwards in science, and instead learn from the so-called "kafir" people. And their claims on the non-Muslims taking science from the Quran is also bogus.

Quote
Be logical a little and not so prejudiced. You are prpecisely suporting those you pretend you are struggling against. You are telling them that they are right, that they have all foundation for doing what they do.

I am looking at the Quran more objectively, instead of the rose-coloured lens that I did all my life, and that the Quran is perfect, the Muslims are not. And with such notions we blame each other, foster hatred for others, and wage war against each other throughout the centuries, each claiming to be right and the other one wrong. While throughout people like in the West or Europe go about their business and actually discover and invent science and take responsibility in their own hands to create progressive societies and justice. Even the concept of human rights came from the West. I believe the Muslims are holding onto too much of the Quran in it's existing interpretations and hence having the disasters befall them. The first step is to stop putting the blame on each other (a lot of us are decent people after all who are quite rational), see the Quran for what it is, and then decide what to do about it.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 11:32:43 AM
@huruf

By the way what do you have to say on this? This may look very simple, but we can't expect a God to make even such a simple language mistake:

39:53 Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

The verse begins with 'Say', which means whatever is after that, is what Muhammad is supposed to be saying to his people. And the people he definitely didn't call them HIS servants. But this verse makes the language and logical error by saying "O MY servants..." immediately after the word "Say". It should have been written 'Say: "O Allah's servants..." '.

I have had a number of Muslims defending the verse. Their defending reminds me of Sunnis defending regarding their shirk committed when they recite 'Peace be upon YOU, O Prophet' instead of 'Peace be upon the Prophet' during tashahud during contact prayer. One word can change the meaning of an entire sentence. There are more similar errors as well.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 11:35:35 AM
4:12 if kalala with child/son sister = 1/6
4:176 if kalala case no child sister = 1/2

see distribution summary posted earlier...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.msg360442#msg360442

Peace

Quote
Hence below is the only two attribute definition which does not contradict!
IF kalala no spouse & no daughter/s! (4:12 if son else use 4:176 no child)
1/6 mother + 1/3 father + 1/2 (4:176) sister/s = 1
1/6 father + 1/6 (4:12) brother + 2/3 son = 1
4:176 (father + siblings mixed 2:1 ratio) = 1

1/2 is for ONE sister not sisters in 4:176 first part.

You say the two feminine means two daugthers not two sisters:
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.176f.gif)

Then what you give to siblings who are few brothers and sisters:
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.176g.gif)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: hawk99 on January 03, 2015, 11:46:00 AM

@hawk99

Why did you quote those hand-picked verses? There are many other verses which clearly state the evident punishment in a lake of fire in the Hereafter. What do you have to say on verses 22:19-22, 69:30-37, 44:43-48? Those are some fearful verses themselves, with clear descriptions regarding treatment in Hell, and the food served there. Please talk on the verses I quoted, instead of other verses and turning everything into allegories.

Peace Samira1234

Thanks for replying,

Here I refer to 22:19-22

Peace Samira1234

Thank you for taking the time to reply.  What I conclude at this juncture is your misunderstanding of the
Quranic text.  Not in a restricted sense but in a broad sweeping conclusion of the message.  Example,
the allegorical description of hell (e,g: verses 22:19-22)  for those who feud (opponents) of Allah and
die in that state will not be close to Allah in the next life, neither do folks such as Sam Harris care to be
close to Allah, they prefer to be away from Allah, and that distance is hell in the next life.  I Consider
your conclusions on many of the ayats you quoted also to be a misunderstanding of the Quran.

So according to you sometimes hell is "Mathal" (allegorical) in some verses and whatever you say it is in
other verses?  Please supply verses or word meaning other than allegory in regards to hell.

Please research 3/7 

2/24.......... Men are the fuel of hell?  :nope:



God bless you

   :peace:

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 12:11:11 PM
Hello hawk99,

How would you individually translate verses of 22:19-22, 69:30-37, 44:43-48? They are clearly displaying the picture of Hell. I can show more verses talking on Hell with all it's glory. Just saying.

And what's with this emphasis on belief/disbelief? One can say they believe in Allah, and go to Paradise after spending some time in Hell for their misdeeds. Others who disbelieve would go to Hell for eternity, and their deeds are useless, such as seeing verses in 14:18 and 2:257. What kind of God is this, so obsessed with people's belief/disbelief in him? I thought the earth was less than a quark's size compared to the rest of the universe? But we see this God foaming with rage over simple belief/disbelief. And using severe name-calling for them, calling them worse than cattle, and foaming especially in matters of shirk, which is the worst sin in Allah's eyes (even above murder, oppression, rape, etc).

Even the reason this God created us is solely for us to worship him (51:56). If seeing all this if this is not a needy God who needs our worship, I don't know what to say otherwise. More than serving humanity we need to believe in this God and worship him to make him the most happy.

Please know I am a truth seeker at this point. I am only after the truth of a matter. Whatever it may be.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 12:18:13 PM
@hawk99

Quote
So according to you sometimes hell is "Mathal" (allegorical) in some verses and whatever you say it is in
other verses?  Please supply verses or word meaning other than allegory in regards to hell.

Please research 3/7 

Why research 3/7? The verses on hell are crystal clear. A number of matters I have mentioned here apart from hell are also quite clear.

On 2:24,

2:24 And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.

Yeah, people are the fuel of hell, that hell probably burns more with people in it. See these verses too:

25:11 But they have denied the Hour, and We have prepared for those who deny the Hour a flaming Fire.
25:12 When it sees them from a far place, they hear it raging and roaring.

67:7 When they are cast therein, they hear its furor as it boils.
67:8 It almost explodes from rage. Whenever a group is thrown therein, its keepers would ask them: "Did you not receive a warner?"

How on earth can you consider these verses as allegories?

Peace
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: hawk99 on January 03, 2015, 01:00:08 PM
Peace Samira1234

Thanks for replying,

I see so far you have not answered my points of view in my last post.



Peace Samira1234

Here I refer to 22:19-22

hell is "Mathal" (allegorical) in some verses and whatever you say it is in
other verses?  Please supply verses or word meaning other than allegory in regards to hell.

Please research 3/7 

2/24.......... Men are the fuel of hell?  :nope:




You do not have to insert "Mathal" in every verse about hell because hell is already
understood to be allegorical.

Much like you do not have to say Samira1234 every time I refer to you.





 The verses on hell are crystal clear. A number of matters I have mentioned here apart from hell are also quite clear.

Again, Please supply verses or word meaning other than allegory in regards to hell.

God bless you

   :peace:





Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 01:03:29 PM
Hello hawk99,

Um, can you show me how you translated those specific verses I showed in my last posts? Only then I can understand your point better.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 03, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
@Noon

The verse 3:14 on desire of women and of sons is misogynistic, and also only acknowledges men in the verse. Women also struggle from desire of men. And people can want to have daughters as well, not just sons. The desire of sons being a part of man, and lust for women being strong in men and hence worth quoting singularly, means God made people misogynistic by nature and patriarchal. And women's desire for men are not worth quoting as well on, since it is apparently more negligible comparatively. Basically such wording in the verse looks nonsensical. Sorry, just saying it like it is.

Dear Samira -- topic is on inheritance, no need to be sorry we are here to discuss any and all topics albeit not this thread.

12:30 وقال and said نسوه nis'watun/women (i.e. few of from the community) فى in المدىنه the town امرات woman العزىز the mighty تراود seeking to seduce فتاها youth hers عن about نفسه himself قد hence شغفها infatuated her حبا love انا surely we لنراها surely see her فى in ضلال misguidance مبىن clear

2:212 زىن beautified للذىن to the those كفروا disregard they of الحىاه the life الدنىا the world وىسخرون and are mocking من from الذىن the ones امنوا believe they of والذىن and the ones اتقوا fear/mindful they of فوقهم over them ىوم day القىامه the resurrection والله and the god ىرزق provides من whom ىشاء wills بغىر without حساب measure

3:14-17                   
زىن beautified للناس to the humankind حب love الشهوات the desires من from (i.e. subset of things follows)...   
النساء the womenfolk                 
والبنىن and the sons                 
والقناطىر and the heaps المقنطره the stored up من from الذهب the gold       
والفضه and the silver                 
والخىل and the horses المسومه the branded             
والانعام and the cattle                 
والحرث and the harvest                 
ذلكم such yours تاع provision الحىاه the life الدنىا the world         
والله and the god عنده before him حسن best الماب the place of return       
قل say اونبىكم shall I inform you بخىر in better من from ذلكم such yours?     
للذىن to the those اتقو fear/mindful اعند near ربهم lord theirs جنات gardens تجرى flow من from تحتها beneath it
الانهار the springs خالدىن eternally live فىها therein             
وازواج and spouses مطهره purified               
ورضوان and approval من from الله the god             
والله and the god بصىر seer بالعباد in the servants? الذىن the ones ىقولون are saying     
ربنا lord ours اننا surely we امنا believe we فاغفر so forgive لنا for us ذنوبنا sins ours   
وقنا and save us عذاب punishment النار the fire           
الصابرىن the steadfast                 
والصادقىن and the sincere                 
والقانتىن and the obedient                 
والمنفقىن and the who spend               
والمستغفرىن and the who ask forgiveness بالاسحار in/by the dawn


1/2 is for ONE sister not sisters in 4:176 first part.

You say the two feminine means two daugthers not two sisters:
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.176f.gif)

Then what you give to siblings who are few brothers and sisters:
(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.176g.gif)

Peace Mazhar,

4:176 kalala case (no child) it is the same as for 1+ brothers, examples:
We know 4:11 no child 1/6 mother if brother thus kalala can have mother.

4:11 ? فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه ikh'watun/brother فلامه so to mother said person السدس the sixth
4:176 ? لىس not له for him ولد waladun/offspring (child) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her  نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها he inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)?


1/6 mother, 5/6 brother
1/6 mother, 5/6 (2 brothers 5/12 each)
1/6 mother, 5/6 (3 brothers 5/18 each)

1/2 mother, 1/2 sister
1/2 mother, 1/2 (2 sisters 1/4 each)
1/2 mother, 1/2 (3 sisters 1/6 each)

4:176
? وان and if كانوا be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk
 فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)


1 @2:1 ratio (1+ brother/s & 1+ sister/s) for all mixed
1/6 mother + 5/6 @2:1 ratio (1+ brother/s & 1+ sister/s)

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 02:01:48 PM
Quote
Peace Mazhar,

4:176 kalala case (no child) it is the same as for 1+ brothers, examples:
We know 4:11 no child 1/6 mother if brother thus kalala can have mother.

4:11 ? فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه ikh'watun/brother  فلامه so to mother said person السدس the sixth
4:176 ? لىس not له for him ولد waladun/offspring (child) وله and for him اخت sister فلها so for her  نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he ىرثها he inheritor hers ان if لم not ىكن yakun/that be لها for her ولد waladun/offspring (child)?

1/6 mother, 5/6 brother
1/6 mother, 5/6 (2 brothers 5/12 each)
1/6 mother, 5/6 (3 brothers 5/18 each)

1/2 mother, 1/2 sister
1/2 mother, 1/2 (2 sisters 1/4 each)
1/2 mother, 1/2 (3 sisters 1/6 each)

4:176
? وان and if كانوا be they of (2+) اخوه ikh'watan/siblings رجالا rijālan/menfolk of ونساء wanisāan/and womenfolk
 فللذكر so to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)


Red words are plural denoting 3 or 3+
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 02:10:29 PM
@huruf

You are romanticising on the Quran's words, and it's opinion regarding women. Apparently over a billion people, many of them being good people, are ALL misogynistic, for translating the Quran in a certain way. Edip actually tried to make it more feminist, but his softening of the Quran's original Arabic text, adding extra words, even changing some of the words become apparent for a more eagle-eyed reader.

How would you interpret the inheritance and the half testimony verses otherwise?

By the way another misogynistic example I can point: there is a list of names of males in the Quran, but not a single female's name apart from Maryam is present. Only one female name versus a list of males' names. All other names that we know of, even of Eve, is due to the Bible. Women are usually called "wife of...", "daughter of...", "queen of...", etc. Even the queen of Sheba in Surah Naml is not called by name. People try to excuse this by saying women's chastity is being protected here. Which is quite irrational, since Maryam's name is repeated 34 times in the Quran and there is even a surah named under her. Which actually makes it more detrimental, since apparently her chastity is not bothered about.

Some say the past was patriarchal. Well, apparently in this regard the ancient religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, were non-patriarchal, since they equally mentioned men and women's names and each one's contributions. Even the Bible has names of female prophetesses, which the Quran doesn't. And this is worrisome regarding the Quran, since it is supposed to be a scripture for all of eternity.

And where did you get that Maryam is a Prophet? Is it mentioned in the Quran?

The overall content has disappointed me quite miserably. By the way I didn't make too many verses as allegories, so I am not sure on other readers' points of view. In your case you seem to be cherry-picking the verses that make sense to you, and see the rest with rose-coloured lenses.

I wish someone would rationally make me understand, regarding the whole of the Quran's verses, such as on women's position. In that case they would also change the mindset of countless other people.

A number of Quran's critics have already debunked a number of the Quran's verses regarding it's scientific claims. By the way what Muslims do, they see existing science, and then try to match it up with the Quran's verses, and then claim science. I have been seeing how minor words have been changed over time to suit the existing science.

The Quran has some of the most unclear verses ever possible, which can be interpreted in a number of ways. Why not make things crystal clear, instead of sounding allegorical or severely unclear, hence confusing people? And by the way if the Quran contained so much science, Muslims were supposed to be the foremost among science in the world, isn't it? But we see the reverse. They are among the most backwards in science, and instead learn from the so-called "kafir" people. And their claims on the non-Muslims taking science from the Quran is also bogus.

I am looking at the Quran more objectively, instead of the rose-coloured lens that I did all my life, and that the Quran is perfect, the Muslims are not. And with such notions we blame each other, foster hatred for others, and wage war against each other throughout the centuries, each claiming to be right and the other one wrong. While throughout people like in the West or Europe go about their business and actually discover and invent science and take responsibility in their own hands to create progressive societies and justice. Even the concept of human rights came from the West. I believe the Muslims are holding onto too much of the Quran in it's existing interpretations and hence having the disasters befall them. The first step is to stop putting the blame on each other (a lot of us are decent people after all who are quite rational), see the Quran for what it is, and then decide what to do about it.

Peace.

?Do you read the Qur'an in Aravic or in translation?

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 02:22:21 PM
@huruf

I use a number of Quran translations. I can understand classical Arabic to some extent only. Otherwise I try to find meanings of specific words online. What about you?
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: truthseeker11 on January 03, 2015, 02:33:25 PM
Peace Noon,

I agree with Samira that inheritance laws in al-quran don't make any sense.

Quote from: Noon
Yes fair, men have responsibility to support women and wife may re-marry thus major portion is left to children.

Can you please back this up from al-quran? Where does it say men have responsibility to support women? "Rijaal" as used in al-quran and classical Arabic does not mean only men but can also include women and "nisaa" does not mean only women but can also include men. This has been extensively discussed on this forum years ago by Samia and others. The "nisaa" men can also re-marry.

The inheritance verses make sense only if addressed to "rijaal" (men or women) in opposition to "nisaa" (men or women) but the presence of gender specific words such as "walad" and "umm" and "imra'a" makes it totally unfair and does not make any sense.

What if the "walad" is a "nisaa"? Why should he get more in that case? What if "umm" or "imra'a" is a "rajul"? Why should she get less in that case? Millions of women nowadays are "rijaal"

Peace and may the love and light of the infinite Creator be with you.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 02:36:03 PM
@huruf

I use a number of Quran translations. I can understand classical Arabic to some extent only. Otherwise I try to find meanings of specific words online. What about you?

Semantics does not mean knowing the meanings of individual words of a text. This thread is one example of making mockery of a language since only individual words are being translated while meanings and perceptions are conveyed by the grammar: morphology and syntax.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 02:49:17 PM
I read the original, and I think that the kind of arguments you use either one sticks to the original or is a waste of time. You do not believe may trnaslation, because since there are all those millions out there who are so good and unromantic and think so, if I think different obviously I must be wrong.

I don't have so much time to go through all the sticks to the wheels that you put, besides having done it already many times, and there is so much repetition one can psychological stand. I do not need to win an argument and I don'tmhave the energy tio dispute all the non-arguments you bring into the fry. Like where in the qur'an syas Maryam is a prophet. Read it and you will see, may be, if you dare think something without permission from all those millions out there.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 03:08:21 PM
Semantics does not mean knowing the meanings of individual words of a text. This thread is one example of making mockery of a language since only individual words are being translated while meanings and perceptions are conveyed by the grammar: morphology and syntax.

So in other words at the end of the day the Quran is still perfect, may it sit on a throne high above a shelf. I am just saying. And we people, no matter how much we try to figure out the Quran from any angle, if the results produce disaster in the world, would end up being labelled as having wrong interpretations, being misogynistic, unjust, arrogant, or "sealed in mind or heart to understand Quran". And while the people are fighting down below, on whose interpretation is right, and who is being arrogant instead, the Quran would be staring down at us, smiling at us, thinking we are all fools.

How about opening the Quran from a humanistic, progressive, non-sexist, and just mindset, and if the Quran does not fit that mindset (being honest throughout and using honest interpretations, instead of using linguistic gymnastics or adding or deleting small words as necessary, such as I have come across a few times in Edip's translation), then one of the following is most likely true:

1) There is something wrong in our method of interpretation
2) The Arabic dictionaries are messed up in some way
3) The Arabic text of the Quran has been distorted
4) The Quran is not from God (the hardest pill to swallow, and the most upsetting, internally deflating and disappointing one. Not to mention the most dangerous too, knowing that we live among sectarians who believe in penalty for blasphemy and apostasy)

I am still holding on that one of the first three may be true. Otherwise instead of splashing around in the mud with our debates (since all of which lead to mostly nowhere and do not produce due results in society), we need to move the Quran aside, and discuss reforms in society and in political laws without using religion. The people in this forum have enough brains and are humanistic too to come up with great ideas to progress our countries within a few years, without using Quran as a tool that they have to abide by. And hopefully slowly one by one start implementing the ideas, as far as they are possible. This is the path taken by secular countries, and they use more of spiritual values and mindset to make their judgements. Just saying.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 03, 2015, 03:21:30 PM
@huruf

Quote
I read the original, and I think that the kind of arguments you use either one sticks to the original or is a waste of time. You do not believe may trnaslation, because since there are all those millions out there who are so good and unromantic and think so, if I think different obviously I must be wrong.

Nobody is calling you wrong just because you may stand out against the majority. Although I have no idea how you are reading the Quran. Sharing with me would be helpful though. How do you translate the word "kafir"? How do you explain the apparent animosity in hundreds and hundreds of verses against the translated words of "disbelievers", "rejectors", "ingrates", etc? How do you translate 2:282, on woman's half testimony? And according to the currently used Arabic dictionaries the inheritance laws are definitely unequal fractions given to the men and women, so how do you reconcile that without calling God a misogynist? Also you didn't answer regarding the language and logical error I had pointed out earlier.

Quote
Read it and you will see, may be, if you dare think something without permission from all those millions out there.

Please point out specifically where it may be mentioned. Or at least strongly hinted as. Otherwise I have to form a romanticised idea of the Quran's words and hope against hope there would be a prophetess indeed. All other males are clearly mentioned as rasool or nabi, so why not in Maryam's case too? And mentioning any other female's name, was it that difficult for the Creator? Now for every other name we have to depend upon the Bible for identification. Unlike in the men's cases. The Quran is the most patriarchal book I have seen so far, even unlike the books for Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism. The female deities in Hinduism are clearly mentioned. The prophetesses in the Bible are clearly mentioned. In the Quran even normal female names are not clearly mentioned, except for one, versus the many males' names being comfortably mentioned.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: truthseeker11 on January 03, 2015, 04:44:11 PM
Peace huruf,

This post is my opinion only and is meant only to be intellectually stimulating and there is no need to reply. We should all verify and seek the truth as al-quran itself advises us. Please discard what I am posting if it does not appeal to your mind, reason or logic.

Quote from: huruf
The Qur'an hs not yet dissapointed me as to my aspirations for truth and for justice, but I see that many women are caught in a circle of anger where they vent their frustrations on a book which clearly they do not understand. Because if they understood, they would stop being angry and start feeling self assured and at peace with themselves. God is not their enemy, nor their task master, but their steadfastest friend. God loves women. Look, look in the Qur'an for an equivalent of the temptress  Eve, cause of the Fall, for for an obscure virgin Mary. The Maryam in the Qur'an is not presented as a virgin butas a prophet and as a real courageous and noble woman, not a word of anger in the Qur'an against women. Not one. The harshest you get is about the wife of Abu lahab, and then the husband gets even worse. Noe even about Lut's or Nuh's wives are harsh words spent beyond stating sparsely the facts that they choose to stay behind.

Look at the events between yusuf and his boss's wife and the women. Even though she tries to seduce him, no harsh word against her nor against the women who are charmed by Yusuf. You read and you feel that God rather than angry with them, in fact understands them nd does not blame them. And by the way, you see the exampple of a man who makes women fall because of his beauty, but no woman ever does that to any man in the Qur'an and in spite of it you get all that crap about hijab for the sake of male virtue. Who does that? The Qur'an? and you get angry with the Qur'an and not with people.. What do you need?

Thank you for summarizing parts of al-quran that are not misogynistic and do not discriminate against women. These parts indeed seem to have been inspired by the infinite Creator. But what about those parts that are misogynistic and which do discriminate against women such as the inheritance verses? How can that part be inspired by the same infinite Creator?

One of the ways to verify if a book has a single source is to check its consistency. Part of al-quran is not misogynistic or discriminatory against women (such as creation of nafs from its zauj - both words non gender specific, and your examples above) but part of al-quran does seem misogynistic, unfair and discriminatory against women (such as inheritance verses). This seems to be a clear lack of consistency. The mathematical fractions and gender specific words in inheritance verses don't leave anything open to misinterpretation. How can both parts be from the same source?

We have to be intellectually honest with ourselves and be open to any possibility. Is it completely outside the realm of possibilities that some verses in al-quran could have been added or deleted or tampered with? (Please research the codices of al-quran). What proof do we have that the CURRENT Arabic text of al-quran (as opposed to the ORIGINAL Arabic text of al-quran) is inspired by the infinite Creator in its ENTIRETY and not even a single word has been added or deleted?

What is the fault of a nafs to have been born as a female and deserve a lesser share in inheritance?

Peace and may the love and light of the infinite Creator be with you.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 04:59:56 PM
What do you think, Samira, prophets are fore? Are they honorary titles so that we may bend in front of important men, or are they sent by God for a certain purpose or to satisfy some need?

And wht about wicked males, are more wicked males in the Qur'an or wicked females?

And outside the Qur'an in the world are there more wicked men or wicked women. Or let us be more specific, are there more male murderers or more female murderers, more male rapers or more female rapers, more, more genociders male or more female? Is prophethood contagious? That is, the fact that there are many known prophets males, does it rub on all men so that they get a commission on it or are a bit prophet themselves by the fact that SOME males are prophets known by name? And what about monsters, does that make dishonour all males, because it lso rubs on them all?

As to Maryam there is not there the sura Al Anbia' (the prophets) where there is a relation of prophets, cited one after another, sayin g "and remember so and so, and is there not Maryam mentionned within that recount of prophets. And the same thing occurs again in the sura Al muminin (The believers) there is also a listing of prophets with deeds and there also comes Maryam mentioned. And you, who are so fond of having the names of people mentionned, why do you think we know not the name of any mother of prophets, or fathers for that matter, but not only is the name of 3isa's mother mentionned, but he is mentionned as his son almost every time, not her as her mother but he as her son. Why? and he is a prophet, but in his naming gladly admits to being known as son of hers?
What does that say?

Is anywhere int he Qur'an stated that the fact that there being a greater number of male prophets mentionned in the Qur'an should entitle males as such to mor eprerrogatives or privileges. It did not entitle the prophets to any favour or privilege or money whatever. Nor did it entitle Maryam to anything, except to cary out her mission, just as male pophets had to carry out their mission and many times to be persecuted.

So then why does God make some people prophet, to give all males something to boast about?
 
Why does God order us in 4.1 ittaqw Allah ... wal arham. Be conscious of God ... and of the wombs?

Do you know of anything else in the world that is mentionned in the Qur'an together with God of which we should be conscious? No, you do not, because there is no such a thing.

If the Qur'an is so misogynist why does it command us that with wombs and does not say a damned word about any interesting male part?

Your words, as far as I can appreciate, reveal an eminently worldly, success oriented outlook on life and the world, where if your name is in every mouth (or in the papers or tv) you are somebody and if not you are nothing. I guess that is modern compulsion for worldly success or not necessarily modern, but of all ages, but that has nothing to do with the preferences of God, nor with what human beings destiny is nor what God's way for them is.

Salaam 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 03, 2015, 05:56:12 PM
@huruf

Nobody is calling you wrong just because you may stand out against the majority. Although I have no idea how you are reading the Quran. Sharing with me would be helpful though. How do you translate the word "kafir"? How do you explain the apparent animosity in hundreds and hundreds of verses against the translated words of "disbelievers", "rejectors", "ingrates", etc? How do you translate 2:282, on woman's half testimony? And according to the currently used Arabic dictionaries the inheritance laws are definitely unequal fractions given to the men and women, so how do you reconcile that without calling God a misogynist? Also you didn't answer regarding the language and logical error I had pointed out earlier.

Please point out specifically where it may be mentioned. Or at least strongly hinted as. Otherwise I have to form a romanticised idea of the Quran's words and hope against hope there would be a prophetess indeed. All other males are clearly mentioned as rasool or nabi, so why not in Maryam's case too? And mentioning any other female's name, was it that difficult for the Creator? Now for every other name we have to depend upon the Bible for identification. Unlike in the men's cases. The Quran is the most patriarchal book I have seen so far, even unlike the books for Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism. The female deities in Hinduism are clearly mentioned. The prophetesses in the Bible are clearly mentioned. In the Quran even normal female names are not clearly mentioned, except for one, versus the many males' names being comfortably mentioned.

Peace.


Like for Eve? And what have we got out of having a name Eve who is suposed to be the cause and guilt of the human fall, of the sin of all humanity? Do we need big names for that? Or to be told that because of her causing the fall,the woman causin g the fall, God decrees:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Great thing indeed. The most important thing in the world is that a name is known, so that the woman can be blamed by name. Great, -and told that se will crave for a male who in loving compensation will rule her.

Indeed, the Qur'an misogynistic but other books not so much. Really, really. For God's sake. After that opening anything goes.

And after seeing that so much of Qur'an has been hidden under prejudiced or self-seeking interpretations, the suggestion to modify de Qur'an is like having a shoe that is way too small and wrong shaped and being told to cut pieces of the foot so that it does not suffer when it gets inside the shoe. Fantastic.

The inheritance question I have not studied yet to my satisfaction and I m not going to say anything that I cannot uphold on the Qur'an. I do not feel that the resent understanding though is clear. To me it does not seems to fit seamlessly when all things are taken into account. Therefore, there are some things that we are not understanding.

Of course I do not want the Qur'an changed. Along many years I have kept solving all the riddles that I found concerning the Qur'an. Had it been changed there would have been no way to solve anything, and if we change something now, we will spoil the possibility of solving anything later on.

And besides, as is the Qur'an is so ffull of insights, so uncany...

Whoever does not like it, drop it but, please, do not "improve it". We can wait to get the jest out of it at the right pace.

May God bless our efforts.


Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 03, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
So in other words at the end of the day the Quran is still perfect, may it sit on a throne high above a shelf. I am just saying. And we people, no matter how much we try to figure out the Quran from any angle, if the results produce disaster in the world, would end up being labelled as having wrong interpretations, being misogynistic, unjust, arrogant, or "sealed in mind or heart to understand Quran". And while the people are fighting down below, on whose interpretation is right, and who is being arrogant instead, the Quran would be staring down at us, smiling at us, thinking we are all fools.

How about opening the Quran from a humanistic, progressive, non-sexist, and just mindset, and if the Quran does not fit that mindset (being honest throughout and using honest interpretations, instead of using linguistic gymnastics or adding or deleting small words as necessary, such as I have come across a few times in Edip's translation), then one of the following is most likely true:

1) There is something wrong in our method of interpretation
2) The Arabic dictionaries are messed up in some way
3) The Arabic text of the Quran has been distorted
4) The Quran is not from God (the hardest pill to swallow, and the most upsetting, internally deflating and disappointing one. Not to mention the most dangerous too, knowing that we live among sectarians who believe in penalty for blasphemy and apostasy)

I am still holding on that one of the first three may be true. Otherwise instead of splashing around in the mud with our debates (since all of which lead to mostly nowhere and do not produce due results in society), we need to move the Quran aside, and discuss reforms in society and in political laws without using religion. The people in this forum have enough brains and are humanistic too to come up with great ideas to progress our countries within a few years, without using Quran as a tool that they have to abide by. And hopefully slowly one by one start implementing the ideas, as far as they are possible. This is the path taken by secular countries, and they use more of spiritual values and mindset to make their judgements. Just saying.

Peace.

Only the red point is relevant and true. Even those people who do not know how to read a book of their native language try interpreting Qur'aan by seeing the meanings in dictionaries. They naively forget that if they memorize the entire vacabulary of a language even then they cannot understand the message in a discourse unless they learn the grammar of that language.

You are commenting about Qur'aan while it seems you perhaps know not the meanings of this title of the Book. You evaluate Qur'aan even without knowing the criteria for evaluation of books. Please glance through a book in English avilable free on line "how to read a book"; and the criteria that renders a book great in timeline.

Experts and educationists suggest that the first rule in critical reading is that you must know what kind of a book is in your hand; and they say that we should know this as early in the process as possible, preferably before we begin to read. Many readers ignore titles and prefaces because perhaps they do not think it important to classify the book they are about to read. However, the author of a book facilitates its reader to know the kind of book he is being given by assigning it a title. Obviously, a descriptive and illustrative title will be considered the best for a reader to facilitate him immediately classify the book in hand.

Grand Qur'aan in the 21st Century (http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Quraan%20and%20Physical%20World%20Science/01.%20Grand%20Qur'aan%20in%2021st%20Century/01.%20The%20Grand%20Qur'aan%20in%20the%2021st%20Century..htm)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 04, 2015, 01:32:30 AM
Red words are plural denoting 3 or 3+

One does not say ?if he is three? (unless about trinity).

4:11 ? فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه brother فلامه so to mother his السدس the sixth

If 3 or 3+ what about?
1 brother & mother
2 brothers & mother

No diacritical marks which is correct?
اخوه brethren
اخوه brothers
اخوه brother his

Semantics does not mean knowing the meanings of individual words of a text. This thread is one example of making mockery of a language since only individual words are being translated while meanings and perceptions are conveyed by the grammar: morphology and syntax.

Dear Mazhar

Please drop the pompous attitude and if you have better meanings then use grammar, morphology, syntax; books, call a friend or whatever to distribute:

 2 daughters, husband, mother, and father?

Peace Noon,

I agree with Samira that inheritance laws in al-quran don't make any sense.

Can you please back this up from al-quran? Where does it say men have responsibility to support women? "Rijaal" as used in al-quran and classical Arabic does not mean only men but can also include women and "nisaa" does not mean only women but can also include men. This has been extensively discussed on this forum years ago by Samia and others. The "nisaa" men can also re-marry.

The inheritance verses make sense only if addressed to "rijaal" (men or women) in opposition to "nisaa" (men or women) but the presence of gender specific words such as "walad" and "umm" and "imra'a" makes it totally unfair and does not make any sense.

What if the "walad" is a "nisaa"? Why should he get more in that case? What if "umm" or "imra'a" is a "rajul"? Why should she get less in that case? Millions of women nowadays are "rijaal"

Peace and may the love and light of the infinite Creator be with you.

Peace truthseeker11

Yes we discussed before and with cross-reference points to females; we?re still waiting proof otherwise?

2:222 ?فاعتزلوا so abandon ye of النساء al-nisaa/the womenfolk فى in المحىض the menstruation ولا and not تقربوهن approach ye them (f/p)?

4:22 ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry ye of ما whom نكح married/had sex اباوكم fathers yours من from النساء al-nisāi/the womenfolk الا except ما what قد hence سلف passed انه surely it كان be فاحشه immorality ومقتا and abomination وساء and an evil سبىلا way of

4:34 الرجال al-rijālu/the menfolk قوامون maintaining على over النساء al-nisāi/the womenfolk بما in what فضل favor الله the god بعضهم some them على over بعض others وبما and in what انفقوا spend they of من from اموالهم wealth theirs?


Peace

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 02:16:42 AM
Quote
Please drop the pompous attitude and if you have better meanings then use grammar, morphology, syntax; books, call a friend or whatever to distribute:

 2 daughters, husband, mother, and father?

According to Qur'aan, not according to whims and conjectures of people, it falls in the category: Parent to off-springs

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/4.11k.gif)

2 daughters are apportioned 2/3 of wealth of the deceased parent by Allah the Exalted, inalienably.
husband, mother, and father surviving are to be given according to the will of the deceased from the remaining 1/3rd.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 02:22:51 AM
@Mazhar

I saw this comment on another thread:

Grand Qur'aan is a non-fiction book. It must be interpreted literally. When you do so, the time-frames mentioned therein are taken care.

Its title indicates that it is a living book, time-space wraped to a compact dot.

Grand Qur'aan is alive in time and space (http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Quraan%20and%20Physical%20World%20Science/01.%20Grand%20Qur'aan%20in%2021st%20Century/01.%20The%20Grand%20Qur'aan%20in%20the%2021st%20Century..htm)

You are going with the pre-assumption that the Quran is an 100% infallible Word of God, and EVERYBODY ELSE creating unexpected real world results by applying it have misunderstood it, because of their own character flaws, or that their interpretations are wrong. Seeing your interpretations, they are not hardly better as well, except a few times where you are playing interpretation acrobatics to soften the message of some of the verses or sugar-coating the meaning of certain verses. Or using one-sided reasoning to explain away some verses. We Muslims would end up having mud fights with each other for eternity in this way, and stare with horror at people who don't play any interpretation acrobatics or one-sided reasoning and apply the verses in their lives as they are.

I have suggested earlier that we hold onto our conscience, reasoning and using our five senses to see the real world and what is happening there. And we approach the Quran from a humanistic, progressive and just mindset, and see if the Quran matches up to that mindset or not. And then yes, take the Quran literally as it should be. And then decide regarding the Quran, and whether our own interpretation is off or not.

If no matter what interpretation is applied and the results are still backwards, unjust and even error-filled (I already said I spotted a few errors in the Quran; in grammar, language and logic, and also scientifically), then maybe there could be some tampering that occurred with the Arabic text. This would be a harder pill to swallow, since then a harder task would be laid for us.

If after a lot of time all else is a fail and the Quran is what it is, then why hold on to it so strongly? Some Muslims say they have an innate knowing regarding the authenticity of the Quran. I have it too. But if the Quran does not match up with proper real-world results, and instead regresses our mind back and creates pain for us, I don't see the point of trying to keep holding on. We can hold on to it's moral system where we cherry-pick the good parts into our lives, but get rid of the Quran as an actual guide then. I see no other choice. But this is a last option, by the way.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 02:33:40 AM
Quote
(I already said I spotted a few errors in the Quran; in grammar, language and logic, and also scientifically),

Please quote an example of each, refer Ayah. 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 02:51:31 AM
Quote
One does not say ?if he is three? (unless about trinity).

4:11 ? فان so if كان kāna/be (s/m) له for said person اخوه brother فلامه so to mother his السدس the sixth

If 3 or 3+ what about?
1 brother & mother
2 brothers & mother

No diacritical marks which is correct?
اخوه brethren
اخوه brothers
اخوه brother his

This is the point that I am trying to communicate you; unless you care for grammar your perceptions will be in vacum.

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/4.11r.gif)

It does not mean "if he is three". (http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.178/36.gif) It is plural and is NOMINATIVE. It is the subject noun of deficient perfect verb "Kana", and له is about its fronted predicate. It means: "However, if brothers and sisters of the deceased also existed, thereby, the One Sixth shall be the share apportioned for his Mother."

 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 02:58:13 AM
@huruf

Quote
What do you think, Samira, prophets are fore? Are they honorary titles so that we may bend in front of important men, or are they sent by God for a certain purpose or to satisfy some need?

Being a prophet is indeed an honorary title. And since all prophets have been men in the Quran, that could be a major reason why our religion looks so patriarchal, since they are mostly interpreted from a male point of view. A female would have given a feminine dimension to the religion and cleared up many pre-assumptions regarding women. Being in an ascended spiritual position of a prophet she would best do the job of explaining religion from a woman's point of view.

Quote
And wht about wicked males, are more wicked males in the Qur'an or wicked females?

It's not a secret that males are more prone to violence than women. See the percentage of men committing violence in the world and their numbers in prisons versus females, as a start. There are catty women indeed, but that still doesn't match up to a men's tendency of aggressiveness and coldness which can be apparent often.

Quote
And outside the Qur'an in the world are there more wicked men or wicked women. Or let us be more specific, are there more male murderers or more female murderers, more male rapers or more female rapers, more, more genociders male or more female?

You just clarified my point better. A male victim of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing who spoke extensively on his experience told the press that if there is to be a president of USA, it should be a woman, not just any woman but a woman who is nursing a baby. We women with our naturally higher empathetic nature would better serve to bring compassion and peace to countries which have ruthless male rulers creating war and destruction. Again, here also people need to be careful. Not all women are suited for leadership or have empathetic nature. The women who do have these qualities, they can bring peace to a country from a much needed feminine dimension. Take a look at the ex-prime minister of Iceland, as a very good example.

Quote
As to Maryam there is not there the sura Al Anbia' (the prophets) where there is a relation of prophets, cited one after another, sayin g "and remember so and so, and is there not Maryam mentionned within that recount of prophets. And the same thing occurs again in the sura Al muminin (The believers) there is also a listing of prophets with deeds and there also comes Maryam mentioned.

Thanks for pointing that out. She is indeed repeatedly mentioned, but then many a time along with her son. Although it is not mentioned explicitly that she was a messenger. But I get your point in a way.

Quote
If the Qur'an is so misogynist why does it command us that with wombs and does not say a damned word about any interesting male part?

That is a good thing in the Quran. It does have protection-oriented talk, which I am glad about. I just highlighted the misogynistic parts, but didn't blanket the misogyny over the entire Quran.

As a side note, Hadith also contains many protective statements regarding women. Such as the best of men are those who are the best towards their wives, a man who raises two or more daughters would be side-by-side with the prophet in Paradise, and Paradise lies in the feet of mothers. Also in a Sahih Hadith, the Prophet when some women were riding some animals to travel somewhere, telling companions to take care of the glass structures, in other words highlighting women's vulnerability hence their need for protection. Also that a woman should conveniently have male supporters when traveling. There are plenty of Hadith highlighting her need for protection and her delicacy. Also making it compulsory for a man to provide for her, but she has absolutely no need to do the same for another man. Then why do we Quranists brand Hadith as misogynistic? It's by seeing the overall content right, instead of cherry-picking accordingly? Anyway, I just thought of mentioning this that's all.

Quote
Your words, as far as I can appreciate, reveal an eminently worldly, success oriented outlook on life and the world, where if your name is in every mouth (or in the papers or tv) you are somebody and if not you are nothing. I guess that is modern compulsion for worldly success or not necessarily modern, but of all ages, but that has nothing to do with the preferences of God, nor with what human beings destiny is nor what God's way for them is.

I do have success-oriented vision. I think it is important. Even sub-consciously and emotionally things affect us. Although I didn't say to the point that a name should be broadcast everywhere or that person is nothing. However, when you are dealing with a scripture which is supposed to have timeless guidance for eternity, and considered as the best book which everybody else should take inspiration from, shouldn't such a writer, which that too is a God who understands human nature, be particularly careful regarding such matter? And how such matters can end up affecting people psychologically and emotionally? And give a subliminal message regarding patriarchy? And the subliminal message that only a HIGHLY exceptional person from the female gender is worth naming, because women are otherwise always a step behind men in a way, and there are plenty of men who have easily achieved that height of exception? Or that women are at the end only helpmates of men and not an equal figure who can have an equal status and privilege over specific matters? These things should have been counted on by a just God.

The Bible and other scriptures are misogynistic in their own way, I never denied that, very misogynistic in fact, but at least they lend the simple courtesy of mentioning females' names alongwith males. Imagine if a world-renowed and respected book was going to be released, regarding you and your husband. This book would be cherished by billions of people, for centuries. In that book you find you are only referred to as your husband's mate, whereas your husband is repeatedly mentioned by name. Wouldn't that disturb you and upset you thoroughly? Like why on earth was your name not mentioned equally? Is it because you have less to contribute? You would probably immediately demand a re-write of the book with your name properly inserted in. This is not asking for success orientation or those stuff, this is asking for a simple human courtesy, that's all.

Peace/
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 03:06:17 AM
@huruf

Quote
And after seeing that so much of Qur'an has been hidden under prejudiced or self-seeking interpretations, the suggestion to modify de Qur'an is like having a shoe that is way too small and wrong shaped and being told to cut pieces of the foot so that it does not suffer when it gets inside the shoe. Fantastic.

The Quran needs an overwhelmingly large reformation. Aside from some beautiful universal messages and teachings, this book in many ways looks good in theory, but is a fail in reality. I appreciate our Muslims' higher level of modesty and chastity though, and that we try to follow our religion quite seriously. But then, look at other developed countries. Aside from the countries blessed with natural resources like oil, which of those countries are Muslim countries? In terms of women-friendly countries, which Muslim country do you see within the top twenty countries, which strongly adhere to the Quran only? So to a large extent our mindset is affected by the scripture we follow. This scripture is not applicable, not in this day and age, not in any day and age actually, except if an age was deeply unjust then the Quran could have improved the society to an extent.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 03:08:43 AM
@Mazhar

I am still looking at other errors more carefully, although having issues with time management for now. For this case, this may look very simple, but we can't expect a God to make even such a simple language mistake:

39:53 Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

The verse begins with 'Say', which means whatever is after that, is what Muhammad is supposed to be saying to his people. And the people he definitely didn't call them HIS servants. But this verse makes the language and logical error by saying "O MY servants..." immediately after the word "Say". It should have been written 'Say: "O Allah's servants..." '.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 04, 2015, 03:19:15 AM
@Mazhar

I saw this comment on another thread:

You are going with the pre-assumption that the Quran is an 100% infallible Word of God, and EVERYBODY ELSE creating unexpected real world results by applying it have misunderstood it, because of their own character flaws, or that their interpretations are wrong. Seeing your interpretations, they are not hardly better as well, except a few times where you are playing interpretation acrobatics to soften the message of some of the verses or sugar-coating the meaning of certain verses. Or using one-sided reasoning to explain away some verses. We Muslims would end up having mud fights with each other for eternity in this way, and stare with horror at people who don't play any interpretation acrobatics or one-sided reasoning and apply the verses in their lives as they are.

I have suggested earlier that we hold onto our conscience, reasoning and using our five senses to see the real world and what is happening there. And we approach the Quran from a humanistic, progressive and just mindset, and see if the Quran matches up to that mindset or not. And then yes, take the Quran literally as it should be. And then decide regarding the Quran, and whether our own interpretation is off or not.

If no matter what interpretation is applied and the results are still backwards, unjust and even error-filled (I already said I spotted a few errors in the Quran; in grammar, language and logic, and also scientifically), then maybe there could be some tampering that occurred with the Arabic text. This would be a harder pill to swallow, since then a harder task would be laid for us.

If after a lot of time all else is a fail and the Quran is what it is, then why hold on to it so strongly? Some Muslims say they have an innate knowing regarding the authenticity of the Quran. I have it too. But if the Quran does not match up with proper real-world results, and instead regresses our mind back and creates pain for us, I don't see the point of trying to keep holding on. We can hold on to it's moral system where we cherry-pick the good parts into our lives, but get rid of the Quran as an actual guide then. I see no other choice. But this is a last option, by the way.

This is like the french saying: love is a Spanish inn: there you eat whatever you brought in.

That is so, also with Qur'an and also with everything else in life.

Anybody intending that somebody else, "those (millions) ou there", whoever, will solve her or his problem, make life perfect for them, is in for a failure, a complete failure.

You get what you put in. If you expect that you will get a ride for free, that others are going to give you hapiness, solutions to your quests, you are in for a BIG disappointment. You will be disaappointed if you expect that from the Qur'an, your will be disappointed if you expect that from the Bible, from the upanishads, from the neighbour, from the millions out there...

Nobody is supposed to do that FOR YOU. If you want something, go and get it. And for that you do not need the approval or the permission of anybody. But by your writings I get the feeling of that very common thing of depending so much on others, being so mindful of what the "general feeling or view is".

No matter if you scream so much about women being mistreated, with that kind of discourse, you will be mistreated always, because as long as you are so worried about the treatment others give you, you are paying them hommage. Are they God? No? then why do you care, why do you give a damn? You also can treat them anyway, right? Why do you accept to be the one "treated"? Why don't you start to be a treater, of yourself in the first place?

Your problem as it seems to me is not the Qur'an, the problem is your submissive attitude. As if you are just looking to whom to submit so that you can receive approval from others. You will never get anywhere that way.

You keep mentionning all those that have said what the Qur'an says and opppose them to what I said. That seems to be a problem for you, but not for me. What do I care if most women are so needing of approval in order to feel legitimized by "society"? If they cannot give up approval, they will never be free, not to speak about equality. Equality to what? To those pushers who live for the rat race? Go ahead, and get that equality. But that kind of mentality is not one that promotes de interests of women. Nor of anybody, but most particularly not those of women.

The world is a mess, to start with, because it has disobeyed and mostly mistranslated God's command to be conscious of God and of the wombs. No, they have done just the oposite, they have attempted to take over the wombs. Humanity will pay for that till it learns to honour and be conscious of God and the wombs. 

And the greatest humiliation is in you dear Bible: the male, who will never give birth to anything, ruling over the giver of life. After that, what do you expect? And muslims have followed the bible, that is, their delusions, their shaytanic delusions, not the Qur'an. That is their problem. And Maryam was sent to say loud and clear that children do not need any male's permission to be born, that that gift is between God and woman, but muslims do not want to hear such a weird thing, and for others than muslims, that message does not exist.

Humanity is lost in its delusions, in wanting to hear whatever makes it easier for them, whatever panders more to their confused ego and ignorance, not whatever makes them truer.

You are barking at the wrong tree.

And however you keep on and on on the inheritance question about the misoginystic thing and all that, you still have not acknowledged what I wrote, that little word ("only") inserted in translations which is not in the original in aya  4.11, in spite of the fact that that changes everything. That shows that you do not want to find justice or liberation or whatever, but just beein able to cry and protest the awful things that the Qur'an does to women.

There are many people who pose as independent and feminist or contestatarians not because they want to be free and independent but because symply they enjoy posing in the role of the victim struggling (just a little) for the liberation of women or of whatever. It seems it gives so much pleasure... For that kind of thing, disparaging the Qur'an is quite appropriate nd brings much better dividends that most other "fights". Look at all those women who have taken up the profession of islam bashing and at the purported apostates of islam of both sexes whose profession is Qur'an bashing. I don't know how many employments are open for those jobs, but some people seem to make a living out of it and enjoy popularity, and ?waw! a name. Who cares if they do not know anything of what they blabber about as far as the Qur'an is concerned. But seemingly coming from a Mulism background gives all the science they need for the job.

May God bless those who struggle for truth and justice.

Salaam 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 03:37:01 AM
@huruf

Quote
What do I care if most women are so needing of approval in order to feel legitimized by "society"? If they cannot give up approval, they will never be free, not to speak about equality. Equality to what? To those pushers who live for the rat race? Go ahead, and get that equality. But that kind of mentality is not one that promotes de interests of women. Nor of anybody, but most particularly not those of women.

I don't care about society. Society can still be managed, reasoned with, etc, to make them understand. I have noticed people by nature usually have a decent enough conscience and reasoning, which are usually layered with years of societal, cultural, and most importantly, religious conditioning. That is, provided they didn't have a very disturbed childhood to cope with, which also layers the conscience.

What I am concerned with is that if a source claims to be from God Himself, that source should show the fruits of God within too. And implementing the words in the scripture should produce good fruits in society too. That is why I am targeting the very scripture itself. It is easier to change people's mentality when their scripture reflects what others try to preach to them.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: good logic on January 04, 2015, 03:44:52 AM
Peace Samira.

I know you have many people interacting with you.Take your time to check the misconceptions. There is precedence for this type of "say" then what follows are GOD s words?

In all this cases "say" just means -proclaim/repeat my words...etc..

Why? because Mohammed cannot be the one who is saying the statement, if he was he would have added "my mercy,  Iam...etc but the statement clarifies for us that it is GOD speaking ,hence "my servants refers to GOD.

39:53
Say/Proclaim: "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
قُل يٰعِبادِىَ الَّذينَ أَسرَفوا عَلىٰ أَنفُسِهِم لا تَقنَطوا مِن رَحمَةِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغفِرُ الذُّنوبَ جَميعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الغَفورُ الرَّحيمُ
Look the statement carries on saying Obey your Lord,submit to Him...etc All the statement refers to GOD .Mohammed is just delivering/proclaiming that statement about GOD.
39:54
You shall obey your Lord, and submit to Him totally, before the retribution overtakes you, then you cannot be helped.
وَأَنيبوا إِلىٰ رَبِّكُم وَأَسلِموا لَهُ مِن قَبلِ أَن يَأتِيَكُمُ العَذابُ ثُمَّ لا تُنصَرونَ

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 03:53:21 AM
@good logic

Hello and peace be upon you.

I just posted one simple error, because I know posting more would create more lengthy debates which I don't have time for currently.

Quote
39:53
Say/Proclaim: "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."

This requires a little more of eagle-eye. When God asked Muhammad to proclaim, why He said after that O MY servants, and then the rest of the verse reflecting accurate way of speaking from Muhammad's perspective? God should have told Muhammad to proclaim 'O Allah's servants'. The people were not Muhammad's servants, were they?

Quote
Mohammed is just delivering/proclaiming that statement about GOD.

So he should be careful on not saying 'O my servants' right? Otherwise the word 'Say' should not be present before this statement. This is an error of the Arabic text itself. Unless Arabic was supposed to be interpreted in a very different way than what we currently know of.

This reminds me of discussing the tashahud issue with Sunni Muslims where the large majority of them, educated or not, still refuses to acknowledge that any shirk is being done when they say 'Peace be upon you, O Prophet' during Salah, instead of 'Peace be upon the Prophet' or something similar.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 04:02:49 AM
@huruf

You are talking on this part of 4:11 right:

[Muhammad Asad] "CONCERNING [the inheritance of] your children, God enjoins [this] upon you: The male shall have the equal of two females' share; but if there are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what [their parents] leave behind..."

So are you saying if there are two or more daughters, the ruling on males getting twice of that of females get abrogated, and the females regardless of other people, directly inherits 2/3 of the estate? This makes it confusing. So when is the ruling on males getting twice of that of females applicable? When there is only one daughter versus son/s?

What would the son/s inherit then?

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: good logic on January 04, 2015, 04:14:39 AM
Peace Samira.

GOD uses His own style. Qoran sets the parameters not the other way around.

GOD uses singular/plural/Lord/GOD/...etc Or mixes and matches. When you study the scripture ,you will find that "the context" is key.

Look, I am not debating with you by the way. It is futile. I agree with you that "each person has to check every detail and come to her/his own conclusion. I am satisfied there are "no contradictions" in Qoran

I happen to be on that journey for years. I now have -solid proof- that both, GOD exists and Qoran is the message from HIM.But remember each will have to go in search of their own "proofs"whichever way.

The worse scenario is when doubt/s remain one way or the other.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 04:29:50 AM
Quote
@Mazhar

I am still looking at other errors more carefully, although having issues with time management for now. For this case, this may look very simple, but we can't expect a God to make even such a simple language mistake:

39:53 Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

The verse begins with 'Say', which means whatever is after that, is what Muhammad is supposed to be saying to his people. And the people he definitely didn't call them HIS servants. But this verse makes the language and logical error by saying "O MY servants..." immediately after the word "Say". It should have been written 'Say: "O Allah's servants..." '.

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/039.%20Az%20Zumar/39.53.gif)

You, the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce universally and declaratively,
"O my those allegiants who have done excesses to their selves; you people should not loose hope for the Mercy of Allah the Exalted in consideration of your hitherto conduct.
It is a fact that Allah the Exalted forgives the slanders and sins [of the past subject to conditions hereafter mentioned], all collectively. [thus it includes statue worshipping in past]
Indeed He the Exalted is the One Who is repeatedly Forgiving-Overlooking, and is the Fountain of Infinite Mercy. [39:53]

Allah the Exalted asked him to address and tell them a fact. You thought that the use of this particular word is exclusive for Allah the Exalted. You are wrong in this perception; please see the same possessive phrase with different suffixed pronoun for second person; masculine plural instead of first person, singular.

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/024.%20An%20Noor/24.32.gif)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 04:41:28 AM
@huruf

You are talking on this part of 4:11 right:

[Muhammad Asad] "CONCERNING [the inheritance of] your children, God enjoins [this] upon you: The male shall have the equal of two females' share; but if there are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what [their parents] leave behind..."

So are you saying if there are two or more daughters, the ruling on males getting twice of that of females get abrogated, and the females regardless of other people, directly inherits 2/3 of the estate? This makes it confusing. So when is the ruling on males getting twice of that of females applicable? When there is only one daughter versus son/s?

What would the son/s inherit then?

Peace.

Nothing gets abbrogated. The ground relaities change, the fortunes change.

2. Thereby, a married man or a married woman at the time of his or her death shall be in any of these states mutually exclusive:

     a). Leaving behind a daughter or daughters: who may be girls and women depending upon the age the parent died.

     b) Leaving behind a son or sons.

     c) Leaving behind daughter and a son, or daughters and a son, or daughter/s and sons.

     d) Leaving behind no progeny.

Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 04:47:25 AM
Hello Mazhar,

So you interpret the word instead of 'servant', as 'allegiant'. Are you sure the interpretation is accurate as to the Arabic text? Would you use the same word 'allegiant' for all the verses containing the same word?

2:186 And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.

27:59 Say: "Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected." Is God better, or that which you set up?

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 04, 2015, 04:51:16 AM
@huruf

You are talking on this part of 4:11 right:

[Muhammad Asad] "CONCERNING [the inheritance of] your children, God enjoins [this] upon you: The male shall have the equal of two females' share; but if there are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what [their parents] leave behind..."

So are you saying if there are two or more daughters, the ruling on males getting twice of that of females get abrogated, and the females regardless of other people, directly inherits 2/3 of the estate? This makes it confusing. So when is the ruling on males getting twice of that of females applicable? When there is only one daughter versus son/s?

What would the son/s inherit then?

Peace.

Look at this:

4.11. He instructs as to your children: to the male the same portion as that of the two females, and if there are more than two women, for them two thirds of the of what left  (the decesed).

Several things:

In this part: "to the male the same portion as that of the two females"

Look at it carefully and forget what you have been told or what you, like a masochist, want to believe because you do not dare believe the opposite.

Does it say to the male double that of the female? No it does not. Does it say to the male the same as the sum of the two females? No it does not.
It says the portion of the two females.

Now if you have two accounts, and put an amount, in each of the them, the sme amount, in each of them. and then comes somebody an tells you: put in this other acount the same you have put in the other two. What do you understand? Answer that.


Then, immediately it goes on, and if there are more than two women... This is continuing from before, where we were given a number of females, which were two, we go on on to the next case, where there are more than two. Have we been told that the whole thing has changed and we are not talking any more concerning "Your children" but that we are talking only about females? Do you see any indication of that? I do not. As far as I can read, the discourse continuews to be about "Your children", so yes, indeed, if there are women over two, they get two thirds of the succession, the rest to be distributed, between those children that are not women, because we are still talking about "Your children".

Now, do not come and tell that the Qur'an this and that. That is what it says, if you want to think that you must punish yourself an pick for the Qur'an the worst idiocy you can imagine, do not blame the Qur'an, blame yourself or all those millions aout there that exert so much pressure in your mind that you do not dare to decide for yourself what yous hould understand. You is ruling you? The millions our there, the centuries of purported history and purported saying of purported knowers?

Would you have others believe that what is plainly written and said cannot be that, because so many peoppole cannot be wrong?


As to what would the son/s get, well I guess it is not that complicated, the only compplicated thing is that you do not allow yourself to trust what you read and be made laughable by the millions out there, who obviously are very comfortable with believe that the same portion given to each of two people is the same as the sum of that portion.

If it was the double that a male should get than the female, you can be trustful that there are means in Arabic to say that, exactly. But it does not say it.


Salaam

 


Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 04:51:52 AM
Nothing gets abbrogated. The ground relaities change, the fortunes change.

I do not understand. See this part of 4:11 verse carefully (I removed the bracket containing 'only'):

[Sahih International] "Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half."

What does it mean? Since you interpret the Quran literally. The sentence on daughters start with 'But'. Which means the previous statement on males inheriting twice of females gets abrogated apparently. Can you please try to make it clear for me? Thanks.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 04:52:43 AM
Hello Mazhar,

So you interpret the word instead of 'servant', as 'allegiant'. Are you sure the interpretation is accurate as to the Arabic text? Would you use the same word 'allegiant' for all the verses containing the same word?

2:186 And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.

27:59 Say: "Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected." Is God better, or that which you set up?

Peace.

I hope you know the fact that collocates do effect the meanings of words in a sentence. He is not asked to address his personal servants. The following relative pronoun clarifies he is not addressing to his personal servants but allegiants who accept him as their rules, guide.

Root "ع ب د" denotes a relational signification that can be translated as "slavery-servitude-allegiance-subject" in reference to his Master.

Subservience and allegiance to anyone other than one's creator and guide costs compromising one's self respect. But everything which is created is always subservient to the will and desire of its creator since the creator puts in it the built-in guidance for its every cell/component part to coherently function for the achievement of the purpose for which it was created. Human beings are given the freedom of choice, will and decision for the purpose that they behave rationally and submit by will affectionately and willingly to their Creator since they know that they were created, like everything around them, by the Creator. Therefore, like every thing around them they should also owe their allegiance and subservience to their Creator which will not cost them sacrifice of self respect and ego. When they submit to anyone other than their Creator and the appointed guide they in fact humiliate and degrade themselves.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 05:00:50 AM
@huruf

I am confused. The verse says the male gets portion of two females, and if there are more than two females, they get 2/3 of the property. Can you demonstrate this in a real life case example as to how it would work?

And how to you interpret this part of the verse:

"And if she is only one, then she will have one half."

Here for if she is only one, is it only one daughter as a child or only one daughter and some number of sons as well?

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 05:02:42 AM
@Mazhar

Quote
I hope you know the fact that collocates do effect the meanings of words in a sentence. He is not asked to address his personal servants. The following relative pronoun clarifies he is not addressing to his personal servants but allegiants who accept him as their rules, guide.

So in the case of Allah we are servants, and in the case of Muhammad we are allegiants, and not personal servants? I am confused.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 05:24:00 AM
I do not understand. See this part of 4:11 verse carefully (I removed the bracket containing 'only'):

[Sahih International] "Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half."

What does it mean? Since you interpret the Quran literally. The sentence on daughters start with 'But'. Which means the previous statement on males inheriting twice of females gets abrogated apparently. Can you please try to make it clear for me? Thanks.

Peace.

But translated for conjunction particle "Fa": CORE-MEANING: a grammatical word used in the middle of or at the beginning of a sentence to introduce something that is true in spite of either being or seeming contrary to what has just been said
introducing opposing proposition: used to introduce a statement that disagrees with something just said

2.  conjunction
introducing further information: used to introduce a clause or a new sentence that adds information such as background or reasoning 
3.  conjunction
except that: used to introduce a dependent clause, e.g. a reason for doing or not doing something 

Arabic conjunction particle "Fa" is used for sequence, cause and effect relations, apodosis clause. So "but" can be used.

Both the clauses are mentioning a different and exclusive to each other ground reality and instructions are accordinglt given.

The syntactic analysis is given at Para 21-22 of the link I had given earlier. For convenince:
Inheritance according to injunctions in Grand Qur'aan (http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/4.%20Articles%20Ontology/2.%20Inheritance/2.%20Inheritance.htm)
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 04, 2015, 05:48:56 AM
@huruf

I am confused. The verse says the male gets portion of two females, and if there are more than two females, they get 2/3 of the property. Can you demonstrate this in a real life case example as to how it would work?

And how to you interpret this part of the verse:

"And if she is only one, then she will have one half."

Here for if she is only one, is it only one daughter as a child or only one daughter and some number of sons as well?

Peace.

No, please, read what I wrote and which as faithful  translation as doable as far as I can jedge. It is not "portion of two females" it s the "portion of THE two females". The two females is a given and each gets a portion. The females are not counted as cattle, they are two specific individuals who each gets a portion.

You see, the Qur'an in the case of inheritance as in other things too, sets things as a function of females, that is set, and then the rest is fitted to that, which is the given factor.

So, if it is instructing regarding "your children, "awladicum" (all your children, daughters and sons) it does not change in the pararagraph to make it only one gender, nowhere is such change in the consideration introduced, it keeps to "awladicum" all along. You do not need to make any specification, becuse the basic factor are the females, the whole is settled as a function of them. So it does not matter what the rest is, it will be settled once the female part is settled. And since no distinction is made as to individual females or males, it is taken that the children of either sex will get each of them the same amount as the others. That is, of the two thirds alloted to the more than two females will be devided equally between them. As is previously done between the two females, which sets the measure since it is understood that the two females get the same amount or there wouldn't make sense to fix the amount for the male as the same as the amount of the two females. 

And, again, where in the paragraph is it said that we have changed from dealing with "your children" (daughters and sons, whatever they are) and that we have started dealing only with the case of only daughters? There is no such thing, we are still with "your children".

And what is the problem. if you have a whole and then take two thirds, clearly there willbe one third left. If you take half there will be another half left. I am not a wheez at mathematics, but that far I can get, and anybody can get.

 The problem is not hte Qur'an. The problem is not daring to think the "unthinkable", what? Poor overburdened males who really sacrifice their whole lives for the women will get less than them? Yes unthinkable. However to think that women who get the burden of given life and many times are abandoned by the selfscrificing males should get always or almost always half of what the males get that is perfectly thinkable, right? For God's sake, males are god...

No, the problem is not the Qur'an, the problem is the contumacious habit of not daring believe what it says, and instead try to "interpret" it. ?How could we let the Qur'an run riot with our beliefs?

You have the problem, Samira, not the Qur'an. Of course, you are not  the only one who has a problem, far from that you are in plenty of company. 

And that is one reason why I think God has allowed the rather irreligeous "west" to gain power, to open up a door from which honest belief in God and His revelation by sincere muslims may access to another stage of social conscience and humanity. God knows nd we do not. Praised be He and may He shower His guidance on us.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Mazhar on January 04, 2015, 05:51:35 AM
@Mazhar

So in the case of Allah we are servants, and in the case of Muhammad we are allegiants, and not personal servants? I am confused.

Peace.

A servant-subject is he who owes allegiance and servitude to his master. Servant is a limited word denoting a persons who serves some one else; a personal attendant to somebody is also called servant. So "allegiant" is a better word for Arabic 'abd" when referred with Allah the Exalted or the Messenger sas.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 06:05:53 AM
@huruf

I am as confused as I could get regarding inheritance. I feel like I am rolling around in the mud with only mud in sight.

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And that is one reason why I think God has allowed the rather irreligeous "west" to gain power, to open up a door from which honest belief in God and His revelation by sincere muslims may access to another stage of social conscience and humanity. God knows nd we do not. Praised be He and may He shower His guidance on us.

God did not let the West gain power, the West with their mindset and thinking gained power for themselves. Some of the Muslim countries are more blessed with their overload of natural resources. Yet due to having Muslim mindset from the scripture, the countries do not progress more than what would have been possible. See countries like Singapore. They built their country from scratch and is now a developed country, mainly for their mindset. The West adopted spiritual values from the 10 Commandments of Moses and teachings from the New Testament of Jesus, who first brought the teaching of The "Golden Rule", on 'do unto others what you would want for yourself', which I see nearly absent or hypocritical at times in the Quran in it's current interpretations, which gave them the opportunity to write on human rights and having a better conscience. I appreciate our Muslims' sense of modesty and chastity though.

Looks like for a long time we Muslims would have to look up to the West to teach us on human rights, and even give us human rights by migrating to the West or seeking their help, which many Muslims do already.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 04, 2015, 06:12:24 AM
Go ahead, forget God and create the Church of the Divine West, and the divine bible with the devil Eve and its racists horrors and genocides.

Good luck.

Who are you trying to delude? For God's sake you seem to be swallowing the christianist bullshit. Those same that killed millions of women in the fire because they were witches. Who did away with any disidents by the harshest means, who very recently sent millions upon millions to death in two great wars, and destroyed Palestine and somalia, and iraq and Libya.


Go and suck up to them and good luck.

Salaam
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 06:22:27 AM
@huruf

The spiritual values and teachings of Jesus in the New Testament are basically good ones. If the Christians cherry-pick his teachings only, the fruit would be good more or less. And it's not just the West, even the European countries and mostly founded on similar values and teachings. Sweden managed to deflect war in it's country during World War 2 through peaceful means. Scandinavian countries are all mostly peaceful. It's their mindset more than anything else which contributed to their current state of country. Iceland can easily be taken as a symbol for feminism, while being the developed and peaceful country it is.

Quote
Go ahead, forget God and create the Church of the Divine West, and the divine bible with the devil Eve and its racists horrors and genocides.

I wonder if the Muslims think and behave the same way when they migrate to the West and look up to them to give them their human rights, which they enforced in the first place.

I still have no idea how you interpreted the inheritance verse. An example of your theoretical explanation would be helpful.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 06:24:15 AM
Quote
the divine bible with the devil Eve

Good you pronounced her name properly. Instead of calling her "the devil Adam's mate".
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: huruf on January 04, 2015, 07:05:05 AM
Samaria, spare us, or at least me, your tricks aat moving posts and acting like the Qur'an is shit and christianity and Bible this and the Bible that. You make sorry fake with those things. If yu are interested in the Qur'an, discuss it loyaly, which you have not done yet. If what you ar einterested in is in spiting poison against the Qur'an and even God, go ahead andmake a laughing stock of yourself, but do not expect to get a better answer than what you give.

Your rants against the Qur'an and against other things yoou are so kin in discrediting and you ever so sweetness and sweet Jesus and that pop christian crap hope give you some profit in some respect, as to respect itself I doubt they willg et you any, but I also doubt that it is respect you are after or after being taken seriously.


 
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Samira1234 on January 04, 2015, 08:01:41 AM
@huruf

There are a number of very good and beautiful teachings in the Quran. I appreciate that. But there seems to be an overwhelmingly large number of non-spiritual type teachings, which concerns me regarding the scripture. Just read Surah al-Anfal, al-Tawbah and al-Masad as examples. When contrasted with such types of teachings I appreciate the character and teachings of Jesus in the New Testament at a number of places. The Quran seems to be missing that spiritual depth within it. And no, I am not a Christian simply for appreciating Jesus.

I am just a truth seeker at this point, that's all.

Peace.
Title: Re: Inheritance according to Qur?an
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 04, 2015, 08:45:24 AM
2 daughters are apportioned 2/3 of wealth of the deceased parent by Allah the Exalted, inalienably.
husband, mother, and father surviving are to be given according to the will of the deceased from the remaining 1/3rd.

Explain (no will) he was suddenly hit in the head with a brick?
Explain which part states exactly two daughters get 2/3?
Explain be consistent (no will): 2 sons, husband, mother, father?

Please use verses #'s for benefit of others state exactly which Arabic word/s you are translating as what in English.

(http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.178/36.gif) It is plural and is NOMINATIVE. It is the subject noun of deficient perfect verb "Ka