Free Minds

General Issues / Questions => Questions / Comments on previous Scriptures (Torah - Psalms -Injeel) => Topic started by: Andantino on February 10, 2012, 08:47:46 AM

Title: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Andantino on February 10, 2012, 08:47:46 AM
Salam :)

as the title.. Which Scripture? Torah,Zaboor,Injeel?

so WHICH Injeel (Gospel) ?
Which Zaboor?
Which Torah?

i just think to read the previous scriptures after i done with my Quran.. and last time i checked about Injeel, there are many version of it.. Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Didache,etc...

Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on February 10, 2012, 08:53:58 AM
Lol, uh oh.  Here we go (again).   :&

If you search the forum, you'll find a lot of previous discussions about it. 

Peace,
Joel


Salam :)

as the title.. Which Scripture? Torah,Zaboor,Injeel?

so WHICH Injeel (Gospel) ?
Which Zaboor?
Which Torah?

i just think to read the previous scriptures after i done with my Quran.. and last time i checked about Injeel, there are many version of it.. Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Didache,etc...
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Andantino on February 12, 2012, 03:32:10 AM
ups sorry... my bad.. pls close this thread  :handshake:

once again i;m sorry  :&
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on February 12, 2012, 05:44:25 AM
Peace Andantino,

I was kidding a little bit.  There's good information and discussion in the prior threads about previous scriptures.  Some will tell you that the non-canonical writings are the authentic torah and gospel, some will tell you that there is no prior scriptures.  I personally feel that the torah and gospel are the genuine prior scriptures - though there is some work that needs to be understood on the part of the reader to get useful information out of them.

Peace,
Joel

ups sorry... my bad.. pls close this thread  :handshake:

once again i;m sorry  :&
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Andantino on February 13, 2012, 05:01:11 AM
Peace Andantino,

I was kidding a little bit.  There's good information and discussion in the prior threads about previous scriptures.  Some will tell you that the non-canonical writings are the authentic torah and gospel, some will tell you that there is no prior scriptures.  I personally feel that the torah and gospel are the genuine prior scriptures - though there is some work that needs to be understood on the part of the reader to get useful information out of them.

Peace,
Joel

umm sorry, due to my lack of english, what do u mean by "Genuine prior scriptures?"

so sorry before  :&
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on February 13, 2012, 10:11:22 AM
Peace,

Some muslims feel that the Torah and Gospel that we have now are not the Torah and Gospel mentioned in the Quran.  They think the books used by Jews and Christians are either fake or so corrupt that there is no way to know what is genuinely from God.

This seems to be what most muslims I meet think.

Others think that books like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Judas, The Clementine Epistles, etc, contain the true Injil mentioned in the Quran, and the books in the New Testament are fake or hopelessly corrupted.  This is also a popular view in Islam.

I respectfully disagree with both of these views.  The Bible that we have today is the same Bible that was around at the time of the prophet.  The evidence for this is clear.

But if you want to read prior scriptures, you cannot read them the same way you read the Quran.  You will get too frustrated.  I suggest reading the following: Matthew, Mark, and Luke.  The Gospel of John requires some understanding of the Greek language and beliefs of Jews who were against the Jerusalem temple system, so for the time being I would wait until you understand some of these things better.  Keep in mind that the chapter and verse markings were not in the original text, they were added later.  I would also suggest reading the epistle of James.  You might also like the Jefferson Bible.  Thomas Jefferson compiled his own version of the gospel by editing the four gospels together and taking out all of the references to supernatural events.  At one time, a copy of this was given to every member elected to Congress in the United States.

Make sense?

Peace,
Joel

umm sorry, due to my lack of english, what do u mean by "Genuine prior scriptures?"

so sorry before  :&
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Bigmo on February 26, 2012, 07:02:34 AM
Peace,

Some muslims feel that the Torah and Gospel that we have now are not the Torah and Gospel mentioned in the Quran.  They think the books used by Jews and Christians are either fake or so corrupt that there is no way to know what is genuinely from God.

This seems to be what most muslims I meet think.

Others think that books like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Judas, The Clementine Epistles, etc, contain the true Injil mentioned in the Quran, and the books in the New Testament are fake or hopelessly corrupted.  This is also a popular view in Islam.

I respectfully disagree with both of these views.  The Bible that we have today is the same Bible that was around at the time of the prophet.  The evidence for this is clear.

But if you want to read prior scriptures, you cannot read them the same way you read the Quran.  You will get too frustrated.  I suggest reading the following: Matthew, Mark, and Luke.  The Gospel of John requires some understanding of the Greek language and beliefs of Jews who were against the Jerusalem temple system, so for the time being I would wait until you understand some of these things better.  Keep in mind that the chapter and verse markings were not in the original text, they were added later.  I would also suggest reading the epistle of James.  You might also like the Jefferson Bible.  Thomas Jefferson compiled his own version of the gospel by editing the four gospels together and taking out all of the references to supernatural events.  At one time, a copy of this was given to every member elected to Congress in the United States.

Make sense?

Peace,
Joel

I agree with what you said about the Bible being the same as the one the Koran talked about and yes the Koran includes all the scriptures. I also agree with u that it should not beread like the Koran. This is because the Jesus was the word of God and not the Gospel. The gospel is the Book of God and so is the Torah though they contain some of God's word. The Koran is God's word. Jesus and the Koran are one since Jesus was given the holy spirit.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Greatest-Truth on March 01, 2012, 05:31:28 PM
Well bro it depends on which scripture you are refering to.
Lets say the Bible, You got the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Old Testament is also used by the Jews today, the New Testament is kind of hard to figure out.

All we know is that the NT is written by man and not sent by God. Well it might be sent by God but there is too many alterations in the NT mainly because disciples had their own ideas and other people put their view in there(Paul). Altho if someone is to read the NT he will clearly see that it refers to Jesus as a Human and not God, The whole God concept of Jesus is mainly preached by Christians and not the Bible.

The NT also tells us about alot of things such as that Jesus actaully never died nor was he crucified etc. Someone has to read the Bible between the lines to understand what it means.

As for the Torah we can kinda conclude that it has alterations as mentioned in the Quran, Plus this can be easily shown trough the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls added so much prophecies and other text to the OT that even a Christian/Jew can admit that dont have the same scriptures as back then. The Quran just confirms the stories and corrects these where they got exaturated.

Salaam.

Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Student of Allah on March 03, 2012, 05:13:03 AM
Well bro it depends on which scripture you are refering to.
Lets say the Bible, You got the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Old Testament is also used by the Jews today, the New Testament is kind of hard to figure out.

All we know is that the NT is written by man and not sent by God. Well it might be sent by God but there is too many alterations in the NT mainly because disciples had their own ideas and other people put their view in there(Paul). Altho if someone is to read the NT he will clearly see that it refers to Jesus as a Human and not God, The whole God concept of Jesus is mainly preached by Christians and not the Bible.

The NT also tells us about alot of things such as that Jesus actaully never died nor was he crucified etc. Someone has to read the Bible between the lines to understand what it means.

As for the Torah we can kinda conclude that it has alterations as mentioned in the Quran, Plus this can be easily shown trough the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls added so much prophecies and other text to the OT that even a Christian/Jew can admit that dont have the same scriptures as back then. The Quran just confirms the stories and corrects these where they got exaturated.

Salaam.

Shalom aleikhem,

That is the most remarkable thing I noticed about the crucifixion narratives in the Gospels. Even the accounts do not support the mainstream Christian ideas.


Peace
------------- Student of Allah
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on March 03, 2012, 05:37:51 AM
Peace Greatest-truth,

1) How many alterations do you think there are that cannot be explained by good scholarship?
2) If there were things in the bible that Jesus never actually did, then why were those documents pretty much universally accepted by early church authorities?  Why does the Qur'an speak well of the gospels, calling them a "guidance and light"?

Actually, the DSS that have books of Torah are very close to existing manuscripts.  There's no certainty that the Qumran community used the additional books as scripture equal to Torah.

Peace,
Joel

Well bro it depends on which scripture you are refering to.
Lets say the Bible, You got the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Old Testament is also used by the Jews today, the New Testament is kind of hard to figure out.

All we know is that the NT is written by man and not sent by God. Well it might be sent by God but there is too many alterations in the NT mainly because disciples had their own ideas and other people put their view in there(Paul). Altho if someone is to read the NT he will clearly see that it refers to Jesus as a Human and not God, The whole God concept of Jesus is mainly preached by Christians and not the Bible.

The NT also tells us about alot of things such as that Jesus actaully never died nor was he crucified etc. Someone has to read the Bible between the lines to understand what it means.

As for the Torah we can kinda conclude that it has alterations as mentioned in the Quran, Plus this can be easily shown trough the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls added so much prophecies and other text to the OT that even a Christian/Jew can admit that dont have the same scriptures as back then. The Quran just confirms the stories and corrects these where they got exaturated.

Salaam.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Greatest-Truth on March 03, 2012, 10:15:22 AM
Peace Greatest-truth,

1) How many alterations do you think there are that cannot be explained by good scholarship?

Well to be honest we cannot know what is a alteration and what exactly isint because of the time that has passed by (2000 years), but as we all know is that the NT is mainly chosen by bishops as the rightly guided Gospels in the Nicene Council in 325 AD and not God. Jesus according to Islam received the Injeel(Gospel) and teached from that, but all the gospels we have now, there isint 1 gospel by Jesus himself. In 325 AD all the Hebrew gospels got burned which didnt fit in the NT (cannonical). There is a big possibility that one of these burned gospels included Jesus his own Injeel(Gospel)

But even than it didnt stop there, the Christian community kept on changing and adding certain verses here and there to fit the specific timeline they were living in. Ill give you a example, the mainstream Christian uses the King James Version of the translation, Did you know that John 5:7 is just a verse that is been added in 1600 AD? This cannot be found in any older translations or it cannot be found Greek manuscripts.
Quote
"1 John 5:7
King James Version (KJV)
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
This was added to the Bible because it mainly fits with the teachings of the church, otherwise it would have got a bit confusing, 1600 years after Jesus. Also in the King James the word "Unique Son" was changed into "Begotten son"

Quote
2) If there were things in the bible that Jesus never actually did, then why were those documents pretty much universally accepted by early church authorities?  Why does the Qur'an speak well of the gospels, calling them a "guidance and light"?
I dont think that there are things in the Bible which Jesus didnt do, but i believe that the eye witness accounts have kinda put their own ideas and thoughts in the Bible which people later have taken too seriously, for example Paul, He never knew Jesus but wrote more than the half of the NT, even the Disciples that knew and were with Jesus left Paul after a while because they didnt really agree with how he looked on Jesus. Now Paul is accepted by the Christians and he is basiclly the one that says Jesus is God.

The chruches all accept the same NT mainly because the Nincean council which estabilished that these 4 gospels are right and the rest is wrong, this was done with 34 bishops from all over the "christian" society.

The Quran speaks about the Injeel(Gospel of Jesus) as the rightly guided mainly because it is the word of God, The gospels Mark, Luke, Matthew, John have human authors which are actaully unknown till today.

Quote
Actually, the DSS that have books of Torah are very close to existing manuscripts.  There's no certainty that the Qumran community used the additional books as scripture equal to Torah.
Yes i agree with you that the DSS have many similarities with existing manuscripts, but the DSS have also manuscripts and prophecies which are not included in the normal OT which we have been using for centuries. For example:

Quote
And I will send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the law, and they will abrogate and change everything so as to work evil before My eyes. [Book of Jubilees p.37 verse 12]
Quote
Peace,
Joel

Salaam
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Greatest-Truth on March 03, 2012, 10:32:00 AM
Shalom aleikhem,

That is the most remarkable thing I noticed about the crucifixion narratives in the Gospels. Even the accounts do not support the mainstream Christian ideas.


Peace
------------- Student of Allah

We know from the Bible that none of the disciples was with Jesus,
"Then all his disciples deserted him and ran away. Mark 14:50

None of them was with him to see him die or getting crucified, the crucifixtion is all bassed on Hearsay. Let me give you a example which tells us that Jesus never actaully died:


Matthew 12:38-40
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.  For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

As you can see no other sign will be given except the sign of prophet Jonah. Jonah was also  senteced to death and he was trown in the water to die. But after 3 days and 3 nights he was alive. That is the miracle. So Jesus when he says the sign he means the same as what happen to Jonah. Everyone expected that Jonah was dead but he was alive. Everyone expected Jesus to be dead but he was alive. He clearly says that is the only sign that will be given.

According to the bible Maria Magdalena went on the second day to the tomb of Jesus and he wasnt in his tomb. He clearly said 3 days and 3 nights. So how can he be gone on the second day?
Doesnt that mean that he actaully never was in that grave? Because he came back after 3 days and 3 nights just as he said in the sign of Jonah.

Salaam
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on March 03, 2012, 01:07:34 PM
but as we all know is that the NT is mainly chosen by bishops as the rightly guided Gospels in the Nicene Council in 325 AD and not God.

This is a common misconception, but untrue.  Nicea was a council that was called by Constantine to resolve a theological dispute.  The canon was pretty much decided by that point, beginning with the Muratorian Canon in 170 going to the response of the church to Marcion's canon.  Athanasius wrote in a letter after Nicea what he felt were the canonical books, but the council never decided the canon.  The four gospels were overwhelmingly the majority's choice for the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus according to Islam received the Injeel(Gospel) and teached from that, but all the gospels we have now, there isint 1 gospel by Jesus himself.

Gospel just means "good news", which is the preaching of Jesus contained in the gospels.

In 325 AD all the Hebrew gospels got burned which didnt fit in the NT (cannonical). There is a big possibility that one of these burned gospels included Jesus his own Injeel(Gospel)

This is also untrue, in the late fourth century Jerome claimed to have seen a copy of a Hebrew gospel of Matthew in the hands of the Jew who taught him Hebrew.


But even than it didnt stop there, the Christian community kept on changing and adding certain verses here and there to fit the specific timeline they were living in. Ill give you a example, the mainstream Christian uses the King James Version of the translation, Did you know that John 5:7 is just a verse that is been added in 1600 AD?

You mean 1 John 5:7.

Also in the King James the word "Unique Son" was changed into "Begotten son"

No, this is a translation issue related to the meaning of the greek word "monogenes".  But the Greek text was not altered.

...for example Paul, He never knew Jesus but wrote more than the half of the NT...

He was rejected as a false apostle by the Evyonim, the Jewish followers of Jesus.

Now Paul is accepted by the Christians and he is basiclly the one that says Jesus is God.

The chruches all accept the same NT mainly because the Nincean council which estabilished that these 4 gospels are right and the rest is wrong, this was done with 34 bishops from all over the "christian" society.

This is simply not true.  Roman Catholics and Protestants still argue over the canon, and the Eastern churches have no "official" or authoritative canon.

Peace,
Joel
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Greatest-Truth on March 03, 2012, 06:12:54 PM
Salaam brother.


Quote
This is a common misconception, but untrue.  Nicea was a council that was called by Constantine to resolve a theological dispute.  The canon was pretty much decided by that point, beginning with the Muratorian Canon in 170 going to the response of the church to Marcion's canon.  Athanasius wrote in a letter after Nicea what he felt were the canonical books, but the council never decided the canon.  The four gospels were overwhelmingly the majority's choice for the teachings of Jesus.


Its not really a misconception as the First Council of Nincea was ecumenical council, The cannon wasnt really decided at that point as nearly every other church was using its own gospel. For example the Gospel of John was considered blasphamy in 200 to 300 AD but it got into the cannon in 325 AD. For more info about the various different Gospel visit http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/



Quote
Gospel just means "good news", which is the preaching of Jesus contained in the gospels.

True it means good news but Jesus according to Islam received the word of God called the Injeel which is mostly translated to Gospel. And he teached from this to the listeners if this was in a form of a book im not pretty sure just as was the Quran in the form of revalations given by God not a complete book.


Quote
This is also untrue, in the late fourth century Jerome claimed to have seen a copy of a Hebrew gospel of Matthew in the hands of the Jew who taught him Hebrew.

Constantine invited 1800 bishops from the 1800 bishops only between 200 to 350 bishops attented so its possible that some Hebrew bibles have survived trough this


Quote
You mean 1 John 5:7.

Yes my bad


Quote
No, this is a translation issue related to the meaning of the greek word "monogenes".  But the Greek text was not altered.


Please have a look at the following letter from assistant Professor of Religion, Paul B. Duff.
(http://www.mostmerciful.com/gw-university.jpg)

Quote
He was rejected as a false apostle by the Evyonim, the Jewish followers of Jesus.

Also disciples such as Barnabas etc. But in today's christian theology Paul is refered to as probably the founder of Christianity, His writings are more than half of the NT.


Quote
This is simply not true.  Roman Catholics and Protestants still argue over the canon, and the Eastern churches have no "official" or authoritative canon.

Yes they do but they argue more about specific cannonical scriptures altho they both agree on the 4 Gospels


Quote
Peace,
Joel


Salaam,
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Sidi on March 04, 2012, 04:03:54 AM
Salam / Peace Bro Joel

The Creed of Nicaea

“We believe in one God the Father, Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, only begotten that is, from the substance of the Father; God from God, light from light, Very God from Very God” (The History of Christianity, a Lion handbook, p. 177).

Once this outrageous creed was approved and set as law, the cast was set, and the corruption was born! The council also decided that all gospels not in agreement with the creed should be burned. It became a capital offence to possess an unauthorised gospel. As a result, over a million Christians were killed in the years that followed. In an attempt to understand the implications of the creed, one is ultimately faced with the following questions:

1- If Jesus is made of the same substance as God, as the creed states, he must be a God as well; and if he is a God, is he a different God? If he is, that would make them two Gods, but the creed says: “We believe in one God”

2- If Jesus is made of the same but not a different God then he must be God himself. If that is the case how can he be begotten by God? Besides, how can the idea of a begotten god be reconciled with the concept of the Eternal God?
These two possibilities are in direct contradiction to the Bible.

The first of these two possibilities, which makes Jesus a different God from God contradicts the Bible which asserts that God is One and indivisible:

“The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is One.” (Mark 12:29)

The second possibility is that there is only one God and who came down to earth in the form of a man. If that is so, and since God is indivisible, then we must conclude that God and Jesus are one being not two. This indivisibility of God, necessitates that God and Jesus must be one being. However, this does not conform with many verses in the Bible where Jesus and God are clearly spoken of as two separate beings:

1- If God came down to earth as a man, one would expect that after the end of His life on earth, and upon His return to heaven, He would be One being not two. This is not in agreement with the following verse:

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God” (Mark 16:19)

This verse, which speaks about Jesus after he was raised up into heaven, clearly indicates that God and Jesus are not one being, for how can God be sitting on the right hand of Himself?!! How can two persons be sting next to one another yet still be one person!

2- “…………and he often withdrew into the wilderness and prayed” (Luke 5:16)
“And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up on a mountain by himself to pray”(Mathew 14:23)


These two verses which speak about Jesus are of great significance. How can Jesus be God if he was worshipping God as any other mortal? Who is he praying to?

The Church have been known to seek refuge in the “symbolic” route to explain this verse! They suggest that Jesus was only praying in a symbolic manner so as to teach the people how to conduct prayer. This argument is clearly invalid for the simple reason that the words “wilderness” and “by himself” indicate that at those specific times, Jesus was all on his own while praying. He could not have been teaching anybody!

3- “and Jesus ……….for forty days in the wilderness was tempted by the devil” (Luke 4:1)

In the Bible we also read:

“God cannot be tempted by the devil” (James 1:13)

If God cannot be tempted by the devil, and Jesus was tempted by the devil, then Jesus cannot be God.

4- Jesus himself refused to be called son of God on a number of occasions. In the following verse he rebukes the ones who called him son of God, preferring the title of ‘Messiah’:

“And devils came out of many, crying out and saying, ‘You are the son of God!’ And he, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that he was the Messiah” (Luke 4:41).

The refusal of Jesus to be called the son of God, and choosing instead the title of ‘son of man’ also occurred during the trial at the Sanhedrian. When he was asked if he claimed to be the son of God he replied:

“So you say. But I tell you this: from now you shall see the son of man seated at the right hand of God” (Mathew 26:64) (in some Bibles the words ‘the words are yours’ instead of ‘so you say’)

5- On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of himself as a prophet:


[/quote]“A prophet is not without honour except in his home town and his own house” (Mathew 13:57) (Mark 6:4) and (Luke 4:24)

We also read:

“I must journey today, tomorrow and the day following for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:33)
“This is the prophet Jesus” (Mathew 21:11)


6- Jesus also spoke of himself as the messenger of God:

“Whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. Whoever welcomes God’s messenger because he is God’s messenger will share in his reward.” (Mathew 10:40)
“No messenger is greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)


The distinction in this verse is made very clear by Jesus between himself and the One who sent him. This is again made clear in the following verse:

“And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

These verses clearly speak of two separate beings. To claim that Jesus and God are one reduces these verses to mere nonsense!

7- In various other verses Jesus is referred to as the servant of God:

“Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mathew 12:18)
“To you first, God having raised up His servant Jesus, sent him to bless you” (The Acts 3:26).


These two verses, which are a fulfilment of Isaiah 42:1-4, speak of Jesus as the servant of God and not as a God.
The Church will usually argue that the terms ‘prophet’ or ‘servant’ are symbolic and are not to be taken literally. That is fine as long as this principle is applied to other equally important issues. Why does it have to be that when it comes to the title of ‘son of God’ the Church insists on taking it literally?!!

All these verses that speak of Jesus as a prophet of God, a messenger of God and indeed the servant of God if anything affirm the fact that Jesus was a man who worshipped God like any other mortal.

8- Jesus did not think of himself as being perfect, let alone divine. He knew in his heart that only God is perfect:

“Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is God.” (Mark 10:18)

These are hardly the words of someone who thought of himself as God come down to earth in the form of a man! In actual fact, in these words Jesus makes a very clear distinction between God and himself.

9- In all the Bible there is not one verse where Jesus says that he is God come down to earth, that he is divine or that he should be worshipped. On the contrary he taught the people to worship God in heaven:

“You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve” (Luke 4:8)

Was Jesus God come down to earth and did not know it himself?
The divinity of Jesus is never taught by Jesus and has no origin in the Bible, but was adopted some time after the death of Jesus.
In addition to the previous evidence from the New Testament that refute the divinity of Jesus, it can also be demonstrated that the Jesus’ divinity is inconsistent with the prophecies contained in the Old Testament about the coming of the Messiah.
Jesus was a Jew who lived and worshipped God according to the law of Moses. Jesus himself said:

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” (Mathew 5:17-18)

With the words “to fulfil” Jesus was referring to the prophecies in the Jewish Scripture. These prophecies speak about the coming of the Messiah, the King of Jews. We do not find one prophecy that speaks of the coming of God in the form of a man or of a divine son of God! All the prophecies spoke of the coming of the King of Jews not of a God.

Peace Greatest-truth,

1) How many alterations do you think there are that cannot be explained by good scholarship?
2) If there were things in the bible that Jesus never actually did, then why were those documents pretty much universally accepted by early church authorities?  Why does the Qur'an speak well of the gospels, calling them a "guidance and light"?

Actually, the DSS that have books of Torah are very close to existing manuscripts.  There's no certainty that the Qumran community used the additional books as scripture equal to Torah.

Peace,
Joel

Salam / Peace
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on March 04, 2012, 07:34:06 AM
Peace Greatest-truth, Sidi,

I don't want to go back-and-forth on every point, though I see some problems with both of your answers.  It isn't good for any of us.  I do not agree with Nicea, I do not agree with Christian "orthodox" theology.  But this is something I came to believe by understanding the Jewish and Christian texts BETTER, by understanding what they really said.  I did not become a muslim because someone showed me where there were problems with the scriptures.

What I will say is this:

1) This kind of information is what I call "predatory dawa."  Predators prey on the weak and the slow of the herd, and not the strongest.  This information only affects the Christians who do not know their religion very well.  A well-educated Christian will not fall for this.

2) Even if this information was correct (which it isn't), you cannot prove the Qur'an to be true by proving another religion to be false.  All it means is that you have helped that person eliminate one religion out of many as being the truth.

3) If you want to reach Christians, lead them to the Qur'an with the best persuasion.  The Qur'an confirms what was in the hands of Jesus and confirms his message - which is contained in the scriptures, even though the church cannot see it because of their traditions and creeds.  Much in the same way that some Muslims cannot see the truth of the Qur'an because of some of the traditions of Islam.  It is the Qur'an, and not the polemics of well-meaning Muslims attacking the Bible, that led me to become a Muslim.

Peace brothers,
Joel
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: jaimesss on March 04, 2012, 09:18:41 AM
Well bro it depends on which scripture you are refering to.
Lets say the Bible, You got the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Old Testament is also used by the Jews today, the New Testament is kind of hard to figure out.

All we know is that the NT is written by man and not sent by God. Well it might be sent by God but there is too many alterations in the NT mainly because disciples had their own ideas and other people put their view in there(Paul). Altho if someone is to read the NT he will clearly see that it refers to Jesus as a Human and not God, The whole God concept of Jesus is mainly preached by Christians and not the Bible.

The NT also tells us about alot of things such as that Jesus actaully never died nor was he crucified etc. Someone has to read the Bible between the lines to understand what it means.

As for the Torah we can kinda conclude that it has alterations as mentioned in the Quran, Plus this can be easily shown trough the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls added so much prophecies and other text to the OT that even a Christian/Jew can admit that dont have the same scriptures as back then. The Quran just confirms the stories and corrects these where they got exaturated.

Salaam.

SLM,
I am so interesting
about those old "paper" from thé dead see !!!
I found FANTASTIK to get this from thé Past.. Is this à "sign" from "God" !?

You "sounds" so informed about them.

Pleaz, let me know what in them are différent with OT&NT
And Where could i read about.

Are they so old ?
What are thé datation !?
More than thé Quran found in Saana (or Saana !) ??

Peace&Truth for All
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: jaimesss on March 04, 2012, 09:24:35 AM
Shalom aleikhem,

That is the most remarkable thing I noticed about the crucifixion narratives in the Gospels. Even the accounts do not support the mainstream Christian ideas.


Peace
------------- Student of Allah

SLM,

Very kind, from you, "student of al lah",
you are using salam&shalom.

You surely are full of true PEACE.

Peace&Truth for All
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Greatest-Truth on March 05, 2012, 10:02:36 AM
Salaam MaverickMonotheist

I understand that its no problem, you dont agree with the Nicea council idea of burning altho there is so much historical evidence for that it happend. I would recommed you to research the Nag Hammadi library, these are gnostic bibles which have been hiden because they actaully were supposed to be burned according to Nicea. It included a letter that condemned the use of non-canonical books in Festal Letter of 367AD.

My brother im not trying to preform any prededatory dawa  :) I just have been doing alot of history research over the years.

2) Im not trying to prove that chrisitianity is false in any way im just trying to show u that not everying seems as it is, one must research deeply to understand that relegion in that time mostly was about power and politics.  The Quran talks for itself it dont need anyone to prove it right, its for the mind of the human to decide.

3) ofcourse the Quran confirms Jesus message, as has been prophecied in the cannonical gospels that one should come and testify in his name. Please dont believe that im trying to attack the Bible, I enjoy reading both the Quran and the Bible to show me what is right and what is wrong, where it went that a bit further and were it got corrected etc. I completly agree that the church is leading the docterines which arent even mentioned in the Bible, Same is with muslims which follow the Hadiths and not the Quran in the essence.

May i ask you are you are JW(Jehova wtiness)? I network alot with JW and they seem to be on the same line with you, they also dont accept the Trinity but believe the Bible is the infallible word of God which rejectes the trinity concept etc.

Salaam brother.

Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Greatest-Truth on March 05, 2012, 10:09:25 AM
SLM,
I am so interesting
about those old "paper" from thé dead see !!!
I found FANTASTIK to get this from thé Past.. Is this à "sign" from "God" !?

You "sounds" so informed about them.

Pleaz, let me know what in them are différent with OT&NT
And Where could i read about.

Are they so old ?
What are thé datation !?
More than thé Quran found in Saana (or Saana !) ??

Peace&Truth for All

Salaam, You can do some research on the internet or the library and you can find out about the dead sea scrolls, Its estimated that these scrolls date back to 150 BC to 70 AD.

you can find some information here

http://www.islamawareness.net/DeadSeaScrolls/
http://hardquestions.wordpress.com/category/dead-sea-scrolls/

read it trough it got very usefull information.

Salaam.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on March 05, 2012, 10:28:31 AM
Peace GT,

Nicea dealt with theological and calendar issues, and that is all.

http://www.christian-history.org/nicea-myths.html (http://www.christian-history.org/nicea-myths.html)

Most of the books in the NH collection weren't even written by that point, and the ones that were were only used by a small number of Egyptians interested in syncretizing Christianity with Egyptian religious/philosophical traditions.  You can't burn what hasn't been written yet.  There's lots of scholarly documentation abotu how late those texts are, and how they never had any major following at all.

Athanasius' Festal Letter could only be binding on the churches under his episcopacy.  Bishops had the right to determine which texts were used within their jurisdiction.  Other bishops honored the decisions that their peers made.  Here's a table of early church writers and what texts they endorsed:

http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml (http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml)

I'm not a JW, I'm a Muslim who is a former Christian.  I spent a year in seminary, so I've had more education than most on the Bible.  I don't believe that the Bible is infallible or inerrant, but a lot of the things my fellow Muslims say about the Bible is categorically untrue. The message of the Bible and the message of the Qur'an are tied together.  It is because of the disobedience of the early Christians and Jews that the Qur'an was revealed to correct what needed correction and to confirm what was true.  It is the standard, but most Muslims are so indoctrinated or not well-educated enough to see where they fit together.

Honestly, a lot of the things that Muslims say about the Bible keep Christians away from the Qur'an.  If they would drop some of the polemics and learn some things, they'd be surprised how many would be receptive to the message of the Qur'an.

Peace,
Joel

Salaam MaverickMonotheist

I understand that its no problem, you dont agree with the Nicea council idea of burning altho there is so much historical evidence for that it happend. I would recommed you to research the Nag Hammadi library, these are gnostic bibles which have been hiden because they actaully were supposed to be burned according to Nicea. It included a letter that condemned the use of non-canonical books in Festal Letter of 367AD.

My brother im not trying to preform any prededatory dawa  :) I just have been doing alot of history research over the years.

2) Im not trying to prove that chrisitianity is false in any way im just trying to show u that not everying seems as it is, one must research deeply to understand that relegion in that time mostly was about power and politics.  The Quran talks for itself it dont need anyone to prove it right, its for the mind of the human to decide.

3) ofcourse the Quran confirms Jesus message, as has been prophecied in the cannonical gospels that one should come and testify in his name. Please dont believe that im trying to attack the Bible, I enjoy reading both the Quran and the Bible to show me what is right and what is wrong, where it went that a bit further and were it got corrected etc. I completly agree that the church is leading the docterines which arent even mentioned in the Bible, Same is with muslims which follow the Hadiths and not the Quran in the essence.

May i ask you are you are JW(Jehova wtiness)? I network alot with JW and they seem to be on the same line with you, they also dont accept the Trinity but believe the Bible is the infallible word of God which rejectes the trinity concept etc.

Salaam brother.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Sidi on March 06, 2012, 06:44:37 AM

It is the standard, but most Muslims are so indoctrinated or not well-educated enough to see where they fit together.



Salam Bro Joel,

Its the other way round,

I have had lots of encounter with christians group and how much I tried to explain from the Bible, they never agreed to the fact that Jesus was only a Messenger Of GOD who was sent to convey the message.

And not only that they started to lambast The Last Prophet of GOD.

Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: MaverickMonotheist on March 06, 2012, 06:48:52 AM

Salam Bro Joel,

Its the other way round,

I have had lots of encounter with christians group and how much I tried to explain from the Bible, they never agreed to the fact that Jesus was only a Messenger Of GOD who was sent to convey the message.

And not only that they started to lambast The Last Prophet of GOD.

Peace Sidi,

Yeah, there are a lot of not-so-educated Christians out there who talk very loudly.  I'd say they don't know the Bible very well.  I work with a lot of typical Christians and they've learned to not bring up the Bible around me.  But those you spoke to should at least have good manners enough to not speak bad things against the prophet.  :(

Peace bro,
Joel
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Ayisha on March 09, 2012, 10:13:29 AM


As for the Torah we can kinda conclude that it has alterations as mentioned in the Quran, Plus this can be easily shown trough the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls added so much prophecies and other text to the OT that even a Christian/Jew can admit that dont have the same scriptures as back then. The Quran just confirms the stories and corrects these where they got exaturated.

Salaam.

Salam, can you please show the references to the 'alterations as mentioned in the Quran' regarding the Torah, thank you.  :peace:
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: tauhid101 on March 11, 2012, 11:46:30 AM
Peace and may God's blessings be upon everyone,

I'm not a JW, I'm a Muslim who is a former Christian.  I spent a year in seminary, so I've had more education than most on the Bible.  I don't believe that the Bible is infallible or inerrant, but a lot of the things my fellow Muslims say about the Bible is categorically untrue. The message of the Bible and the message of the Qur'an are tied together.  It is because of the disobedience of the early Christians and Jews that the Qur'an was revealed to correct what needed correction and to confirm what was true.  It is the standard, but most Muslims are so indoctrinated or not well-educated enough to see where they fit together.

Honestly, a lot of the things that Muslims say about the Bible keep Christians away from the Qur'an.  If they would drop some of the polemics and learn some things, they'd be surprised how many would be receptive to the message of the Qur'an.

I agree with MaverickMonotheist. Furthermore, the final Book is only confirming and a witness to the previous Books. Who or what will confirm and be a witness to what was created after the final Book? The final revelations is the Book of Truth as promised in the Gospel which will tell all Truth and God alone is the Councillor and the Comforter. Only God alone with His Messages will guide each one of us to the Truth.

The stumbling block for those seeking the Truth is clinging on to the doctrines of man. For example, I am certain God did not want His Messages to be called the Great Reading (the Quran). The arabs were supposed to correct the Gospel and the Torah but they did not do it. The doctrines of man from these two Books still existed today and it is up to each one of us to seek what were required from them in Truth.

To seek the Truth from God alone, one has to distant himself/herself from being influenced by the doctrines of man. One of the most important thing God with the Book of Truth taught me is that I am, we are all spiritual beings. Would anyone of you want to believe we are immortal spiritual beings? To "build the rope", the bond between God and each one of us is the manifestation of the spirit of truth/faith/iman within us. That is by accepting the Truth from God alone because only God has the power and authority to send down the spirit of truth to dwell within us. Our salvation is to be like Jesus/Immanuel/Isa, a statement of Truth. Submitting(islam) oneself to God alone for the Truth and to bow to God's Will and be a righteous Believer in this life (to be muslim) is only part of the criteria imposed on the Straight Path. The final goal is to return to God as a credible Witness, just like all the prophets, men of Truth.

Peace everyone and may God's blessings be upon everyone with the Truth.
tauhid101.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: mirjamnur on March 13, 2012, 12:39:20 PM
 Salam
Quote
I'm not a JW, I'm a Muslim who is a former Christian.  I spent a year in seminary, so I've had more education than most on the Bible.  I don't believe that the Bible is infallible or inerrant, but a lot of the things my fellow Muslims say about the Bible is categorically untrue. The message of the Bible and the message of the Qur'an are tied together.  It is because of the disobedience of the early Christians and Jews that the Qur'an was revealed to correct what needed correction and to confirm what was true.  It is the standard, but most Muslims are so indoctrinated or not well-educated enough to see where they fit together.

Honestly, a lot of the things that Muslims say about the Bible keep Christians away from the Qur'an.  If they would drop some of the polemics and learn some things, they'd be surprised how many would be receptive to the message of the Qur'an.



yes this is unfortunately too true. I have the same experience. The refusal of most Muslims to the Bible is very large. I say, less than 10% of Muslims has ever opened the Bible. Here are the ahaadeeth largely to blame. There are traditions that emphasize that Prophet Muhammad was angry when someone wanted to read the Bible. Sun of course, the Sunnis reject totally to study the Bible. They obey Shaitan and give the peace  God no chance .... :brickwall:
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: SaifulAli on May 28, 2012, 05:24:17 AM
 :) well said!
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: youssef4342 on May 28, 2012, 02:32:44 PM
peace be with you as well!
I personally would se ethe truth and guidance and the cross referances between the Bible and the Quran.
i have counted around 275 times cross refrences from the Quran to the bible, and i would say there would be about 300 more cross refrences if one traces from the bible to the Quran (things that might be overlooked might be the spiders house being flimsy, in the Quran and the book of Job, and the camel going through the eye of a needle, in the Qurna & gospels)...

for the previous scriptures, i would say that most of the corruption would be in the translations of those text  as well as their commentaries (Jews have the Talmud + Hebrew Bible).
Most of the Old testament books could go back to the Dead sea scrolls--them being older than Muhammed and jesus.... and Muhammed and jesus did confirm the bible and the Gospels.
Meaning what we have today would be accurate to a high degree.

When the Quran talks about twisting the words of God, i would believe that it is twisting the meaning of the words, not the words themselves.

Maybe get the RSV bible and read it.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: huruf on May 28, 2012, 11:32:58 PM
Why the Bible? The Qur'an says God sent prophets to everypeople. So whyonly the bible? The Bible, at any rate has made well its way into the Qur'an through a multitude of hadith, and the Bible itself is hadith.

When the Qur'an confirms whas was revealed previously it says what it says, it doesn't certify the authenticity of the bible, the whole bible, it doesnt go either into this page says this which is right and that page says that which is wrong. The bible, as the bible itself makes well known is not the word of God. There are words of God in the b¡Bible, but the bible itself is not the word of God, sho how can it be held on the same standing and Qur'an ans say that God confirms "the bible" it may confirm previous revelations, parts of which may be contained in the bib but the bible itself such as it si is not revealed. Some contents of it might have been revealed. The bible is hadith. So if we reject hadith as a basis for absolute certaint or for rules of conduct, nothwithstanding that in many hadiths there may be indeed the words of the Prophet, and in many also very divine teachings, to uphold that the bible is on a foot with the Qur'an is deceiving. It is on a foot with hadith and there is no reason to be more considerate or mindful of the bible that of any other scriptures or holy teachings upheld by all the peoples of humanity as sacred and divine teachings. God revealed Itself to every people, not only to one people and there is no greater gurantee to the bible than to other holy teaching sent to every people, just as there is none to hadith. We have to deal with each content of them contrasting them with the Qur'an, but with the Qur'an untainted by biblical indoctrinating. And the Qur'an is being interpreted through centuries tainted by biblical teaching seeped into it throught the hadith.

Whoever wants to follow the bible, that is up to himself or herself, but one is under no obligation to follow the bible. Though everyone may profit from the reading of holy books, be it the bible or any other book of any other divine tradition, just as one may profit from reading hadith, because among the hadith there are sublime ones and sa lot to profit from.

Salaam
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: youssef4342 on May 29, 2012, 10:09:48 AM
peace huruf,

we are not obligated to follow the bible, however, we are commanded to believe in the previous book (4:136)


[5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: Student of Allah on May 29, 2012, 06:10:14 PM
Shalom Aleikhem,

The way I see it , as a muslim, is that Qur'an confirms the existence and stories of certain individuals who are talked about in the Bible. Not to mention, often the details differ, thus correcting on the narrative. Qur'an confirms their truthfulness as warners/messengers/prophets authorized by God. This is not to say that the modern Bible that we see is filled with all true stories dictated by God. 

Lets put it this way, you know prophet zoolander ?? Dont worry, me neither !! But when a jew/christian comes up and speaks about David, Moses, Jesus.... we instantly recognize them, even those among us that has never opened the OT/NT or met a christian or a Jew.

Now which part of the modern Bible is made up, and which is true, although interesting, its irrelevant for me.  My contract with God is exclusively based on Qur'an. If you are/were a christian , it is your duty to verify your book, ask questions, study and walk your own path.

Peace
---------- Student of Allah
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: youssef4342 on May 30, 2012, 04:00:21 PM
peace be with you as well.
I would find some wisdom in the previous scriptures. With Jesus' teaching about arrogance, forgiveness, and loving your neighbor.... all of which have similarities in the Quran
Title: Re: Quran: Follow the previous scripture?
Post by: huruf on June 02, 2012, 12:29:38 AM
Wisdom is to be found everywhere. Everywhere God sent teachers, warners. Wherever we turn, if we look with the eyes of the believer we will see previous "scriptures" where the unconfoundable message of God gets through, not just in those of the linneages that appear in the Bible. In all can we find wisdom. why restrict ourselves tot he bible and set it out as a special repository of faith, when faith is everywhere?

I am not agianst the bible, against the wisdom that is in it, but I am against making out of it a special case where thre is more truth or garantee in it and in any other sacred text of transmission. We are ignorant of many of those transmissions that doesn't mean that they do not exist or that they are less truth. Through them will happen the same as with the bible and witht he hadith, we will have to follow our innate sense for hearing spiritual truth and wisdom. Just as we do with the Qur'an too, or with anything. Not to sanctify nor condemn beforehand.

Salaam