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Community Needs => Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) => Topic started by: redsulphur1229 on January 05, 2012, 01:48:18 PM

Title: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: redsulphur1229 on January 05, 2012, 01:48:18 PM
Here is my review of the verses of the Quran regarding Salat (Prayer), and it appears to me that only two Prayer times are prescribed in the Quran.  Everything depends on the interpretation of 11:114.

Prayer (Salat) ? Prescribed Times
4:103 ? Prayer is enjoined in the ?prescribed form? and at ?prescribed times.?

This verse states that Prayer is in prescribed form and at prescribed times.  The prescribed form consists of standing, bowing and prostrating (see below).  First, let's review what timings are actually prescribed in the Quran.

11:114 ? (literal translation) ?And establish Prayer at the edges of the day and in proximity to the night (zulfun layl)?

Although the foregoing is a literal translation, ?edges? is often translated as ?two ends? or "two edges".  This verse refers only to 2 prescribed Prayer times, namely, the two ?edges? of the day.  Despite the fact that this verse is often cited as referring to 3 prescribed times, with many translations translating ?zulfun layl? as ?some hours of the night?, this appears incorrect.  The term ?zulfun? is derived from the root ?zalafa? which means ?to bring near, to approach? and ?zulfa? means ?nearness, proximity?.  Therefore, ?zulfun? cannot be translated as ?some hours of? but must be a reference to nearness or proximity to something.  The term ?layl? means ?night?.  Therefore, the phrase ?zulfun layl? means ?near or in proximity to the night?.  The words ?edges of the day? means that the Prayer times referred to in this verse occur during daylight hours, once at the beginning of the day and the other at the end, and not at anytime during the night.  However, these day times are close to the night, and thus presumably just after sunrise and just before sunset.  The ?approach of the night? (or ?proximity of the night?) cannot be a separate prayer time but merely further description of when these ?edges? occur, namely, in proximity or closest to the night. 

17:78-79 ? ?Observe Prayer at declining and paling of the sun on to the darkness of the night, and recite the Quran at morning (fajr).?

This verse refers to only one time prescribed for Prayer, namely, when the sun begins to decline (which is when it passes its zenith), and therefore, anytime after the zenith (afternoon or evening).  Read with 11:114, the prayer is to be closer to the sunset time, and is thus a reference to the second ?edge of the day?.  Query: No mention is made in this verse to Prayer at morning (fajr) to accompany the Quran recitation.

24:58 ? ?O ye who believe, let those whom your rights hands possess (servants), and those of you who have not reached puberty, ask leave of you 3 times before coming into your presence, before Salatil Fajr (morning Prayer), when you shed your clothes at noon in summer, and after the Salatil Isha (evening Prayer).  These are 3 times of privacy for you.? 

While there are 3 times of privacy mentioned, only two of them are referred to as Prayer times -- morning Prayer (Salatil Fajr) and evening (pre-sunset) Prayer (Salatil Isha).  This is consistent with 11:114 above provided "Isha" (evening) is taken to be the time just before sunset.  Noon is described as the time when the Prophet takes off his garments due to the heat of the noon, but is not referred to as a Prayer time and therefore cannot be a reference to the ?Middle Prayer? (see next verse).   

2:238 ? ?Watch over Prayers, particularly the ?Salatil Wusta? (the Best Prayer).?

Translators translate "wusta" to mean ?middle?, which would constitute the one and only reference to a third prayer but with absolutely no indication as to its prescribed time anywhere in the Quran.  As the Quran states that the Prayer times are prescribed, and no time is prescribed for a so-called Middle Prayer, it must thus be another name for one of the other two Prayers.  Indeed, the word ?wusta? comes from the root ?wasata? which also means ?best?, ?most excellent?, ?most important? and ?noblest?.  Therefore, as no prescribed timing has been provided for any other Prayer other than Salatil Fajr and Salatil Isha, this verse must be a reference to one of these two Prayers (mentioned in 11:114 and 24:58), with one of them being the ?best?, ?better? or ?more excellent/important? than the other.  As 17:78-79 makes a reference to only one Prayer, the evening Prayer, perhaps this special mention of the evening Prayer means it is the more important of the two Prayers.  If we are to give credence to the Prophet's Seera, we know that the Meccan pagans did not bar the Muslims from performing Salatil Fajr, but did bar them from performing the pre-sunset Prayer as it coincided with the noisy rituals of the pagans held at the same time.  Perhaps because Muslims were barred from the pre-sunset Prayer (Salatil Isha), it was deemed Satail Wusta as well.

Glorify the name of the Lord (subhai bai humdai rabbai) ? not a reference to Prayer

20:130-132 ? ?Glorify Allah and His praise before sunrise and before sunset, and in the early hours of the night and at the edges of the day ? and enjoin Prayer and be constant therein.?

While these verses prescribe 5 times for glorification, these cannot be references to Prayer times because 20:132 later states, additionally, to ?enjoin Prayer? thus treating Prayer and glorification as separate and distinct from one another.  Interpreting 20:130 as referring to 5 Prayer times not only renders the additional instruction to ?enjoin Prayer? as nonsensical, but it contradicts the specific mention of 2 prescribed Prayer times in 11:114.

50:39-40 ? ?Glorify before sunrise and before sunset and in a part of the night, and after prescribed prostrations.?

As presumably the reference to ?prescribed prostrations? are a reference to Prayer, these verses prescribe glorification ?after prescribed prostrations? further illustrating that Prayer and glorification are separate and distinct from one another.
 
As glorification occurs at more times than the Prayer, and is mentioned as something in addition to Prayer, then the times given for glorification are not references to Prayer times. 

Call upon the Lord (yud?oona rabbahum)
6:52 ? morning (ghadat) and evening (isha)
18:28 ? morning (ghadat) and evening (isha)

Is ?calling upon Lord? a reference to Prayer?  If it is, the timings appear consistent with 11:114, but morning is referred to as ?ghadat? and not ?fajr?. 

Remembrance (dhikr)
7:205 ? morning (ghuduw) and evenings (asal)
76:25 ? morning (bukra) and evening (asil)

Is ?remembrance? same as Prayer?  If it is, the timings are consistent with Prayer, but the morning is not referred to as ?fajr? and nor is the evening referred to as ?isha?.  Note - only two times are mentioned for ?remembrance?.   20:14, 62:9 and 4:103 indicate that Salat is for the purpose of remembrance.

20:15 ? Verily, I am Allah, there is no god but Me.  So serve Me, and observe the Prayer of Remembrance (Salatil Dhikr)

Is Salatil Dhikr another name for one or both of the two Prayers, Salatil Fajr and Salatil Isha?  Unclear as no reference is made to the prescribed time of this Prayer. Therefore, like Salatil Wusta, it may simply be another reference to one of the 2 Prayers, or to both of them generally.

Night Prayer and Vigils ? never referred to as ?Prayer?
73:2 ? stand up (qaleel) at night (in vigil)
This addresses the Prophet Muhammad only ? the one bearing a heavy burden, and because he has many engagements/duties during the day.

76:26 ? remembrance morning and evening, and prostrate and glorify for a long part of the night

This verse addresses the Prophet Muhammad only ? the one to whom the Quran was revealed piecemeal.

25:64 ? those who spend the night before their Lord prostrate and standing (not referred to as Prayer)
15:17-18 ? sleeping only a little at night and seeking forgiveness at dawn (no reference to this as Prayer)
39:9 ? meditating in the early hours of the night, prostrating and standing, fears the Hereafter and hopes for mercy (no reference to this as Prayer)

Performing night vigils is referred to as commendable and blessed, but not as Prayer.

Friday Prayer
62:9 ? ?O ye who believe!  When the call is made for Salat on yaum al jumuah, hasten to the remembrance of Allah and leave all selling.  That is better for you if you only knew.?

In this verse, no mention is made of which of the 2 Salats the call is being made for.  Further, this verse refers to ?yaum ul jumuah?, which literally means ?day of gathering/assembly/congregation?.  While this term has been traditionally translated as ?Friday?, that is not what it means.  For the Arabs of the time of the Prophet Muhammad, the word for day of the week known as Friday was ?Aruba?, and not ?Juma? (as it is today).  Further, ?yaum ul jumuah? is very different from and cannot connote ?Juma?.  Therefore, this verse cannot be interpreted as referring to a particular day of the week, and thus could be any day designated as a ?day of gathering/assembly/congregation,? or simply a reference to one day only.  As this verse makes no reference to the time for the particular Salat mentioned, but makes reference to ceasing all selling, it must be referring to Salatil Isha (the late afternoon or evening prayer prior to sunset), and not Salatil Fafr (the morning prayer, as markets would not have opened until after the Salatil Fajr.  Such a prayer time would be consistent with the practice of Jews who ceased all selling prior to sunset (and not in the early afternoon) on Fridays in preparation for the Sabbath.  In other words, that the Quran is inviting all Muslims to close their markets at the same time as the Jews but to also gather for the Salat is a reasonable interpretation of this verse.  That said, that this verse refers to a particular day of the week, or for that matter, the Zuhr prayer time, is not supported by the verse itself.


Prayer (Salat) ? Prescribed Form
2:238, 3:39, 4:101 - qiyaam (standing) 
2:43 ? ruku (bowing)
4:102 ? sujud (prostrating)
   ruku and sujud in tandem ? 2:125, 3:43, 9:112, 22:26-27, 48:29
   ruku and sujud interchangeable ? 38:24 (reference to David)
   sujud and weeping ? 19:58 (reference to Adam, Noah, Abraham and Israel)
   sujud when hear Quran recited ? 17:107
   sujud and repentance ? 2:58, 7:161
   sujud leaving a mark on the face ? 48:29

What is the prescribed number of raka?ats in the Quran?  No mention is made in the Quran of the number of raka?ats or the form of Prayer.  4:101 states that the number of raka?ats can be shortened when on a journey or when under threat from enemies.  Therefore, the number of raka?ats must be at least 2, so that they can be shortened to 1.  However, one Hadith appears to indicate that the minimum number of raka?ats, while initially 2, was changed to 4.

Sahih Bokhari: Volume 1, Book 8, Number 346: Narrated 'Aisha: Allah enjoined the Prayer and when He enjoined it, it was two Rakat only (in every prayer) both when in residence or on journey. Then the prayers offered on journey remained the same, but (the Rakat of) the prayers for non-travellers were increased. 

While this Hadith acknowledges, that the prescribed number of raka'ats was initially 2.  The notion that 2 raka'ats existed whether in residence or on journey appears to indicate that that this practice existed prior to the revelation of 4:101 (which allows for the halving of the raka'ats when on a journey).  However, instead of halving the raka'ats to 1, it appears that the response to 4:102 appears to have been to to double the number of residence raka'ats to 4 so that the journey raka'ats remained as 2.  Doing so appears to blatantly contradict the spirit and intent of 4:101, which further suggests unreliability of this Hadith and an effort on the part of later Muslims to add to religious requirement, not minimize it.  That said, there is no indication from the Quran as to the correct number of raka'ats for Prayer, other than whatever number it is, it must be capable of being halved in accordance with 4:101.

The only other Hadith which makes mention of the timings prescribed for Prayer is Bokhari 1:8:345 where the Prophet ascends to Heaven and is depicted as negotiating with Allah at the behest of Moses until the number is set at 5.  Many cite the dubious reliability of this Hadith, especially since, according to it, Moses is shown as more sensible that the Prophet and even Allah.

Just my thoughts.
Allah knows best.
 
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Kaiokenred on January 05, 2012, 03:17:26 PM
Salat doesn't mean prayer. But Allah knows better
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: GODsubmitter on January 05, 2012, 06:20:52 PM
Thank you redsulphur1229 for this excellent post with references and explanations!
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: youssef4342 on January 06, 2012, 09:13:43 AM
Peace   :peace:
This has been debated from before:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603015.0
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Bender on January 06, 2012, 01:59:11 PM
Salaam redsulphur1229,

Welcome to the forum  :handshake:
Thank you for your post. Just a question, how long are you a Quran-alone muslim?

I agree with some parts of your post and some not, but most of time after a couple of days I don't even agree with my own understandings anymore  ;) But we are all here to learn and we learn everyday more and more. And everyday we are correcting ourselves, sometimes little corrections sometimes total new understandings. And I believe (when I see how much effort you put in this post) that inshaAllah Allah will give you a lot of knowledge.

Salaam and may Allah increase us in our knowledge,
Bender
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: GODsubmitter on January 07, 2012, 09:56:08 PM
Salat doesn't mean prayer. But Allah knows better

Well Kaiokenred, instead of posting the same in many threads that Salat doesn't mean prayer, when are you going to reveal to all of us what does it mean??? ha? :hmm
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: redsulphur1229 on January 11, 2012, 10:01:08 AM
Bender,
Thank you for your comments - despite my efforts, I know I have weaknesses and just want to discover Allah's will as expressed in the Quran.  I confess I have not been a Quran-alone Muslim for long coming from a background which holds fast to the Hadith, usually in precedence to the Quran - a disease which plagues much of the Muslim world unfortunately.  An eminent scholar (Fazlur Rehman?) remarked that the Islam of today bears little or no resemblance to the Islam of the Prophet and its first 150 years - that comment sparked my inquiries and led me to this site.
At the end of the day, if the Quran asserts that it is perfect and complete, are we not to take it at its word?
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Abdul-Hadi on January 11, 2012, 10:42:19 AM
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

...At the end of the day, if the Quran asserts that it is perfect and complete, are we not to take it at its word?

@redsulphur1229:  :welcome: A winner is you! There is no need for "confessions" between us. You are a seeker, and I call myself a seeker; there are many seekers on this site.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: dawngorgeous on January 12, 2012, 12:29:20 AM
Peace,
Both ends of the day means morning and night and nearly night basically means sunset.  I don't think this is an issue anymore.  What is a more pressing issue is what is salat.  Is it a prayer or an assembly?
Dawn.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Layth on January 12, 2012, 01:20:43 AM
Salam,

The easiest pitfall of 11:114 is to "assume" that the day only has 2 parts (thus we end up looking at dusk & dawn - and since "near night" is dusk, we assume the verse is simply being repeptitive).

The day has at least 3 parts (see 20:130) - which means that 11:114 is refering to the "first 2 parts" (dawn & noon) while the last part os refering to the 3rd Salat "dusk" which is near the night.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: herbman on January 12, 2012, 07:59:10 AM
Salam,

The easiest pitfall of 11:114 is to "assume" that the day only has 2 parts (thus we end up looking at dusk & dawn - and since "near night" is dusk, we assume the verse is simply being repeptitive).

The day has at least 3 parts (see 20:130) - which means that 11:114 is refering to the "first 2 parts" (dawn & noon) while the last part os refering to the 3rd Salat "dusk" which is near the night.

Salam brother Layth,

how would name the noon salat as per Qur'an?

peace
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: redsulphur1229 on January 12, 2012, 08:55:07 AM
While 20:130 mentions multiple times for glorification (more than 3), no reference is made to this as Salat, especially since Salat is separately mentioned in 20:132.

After reviewing all of the excellent threads relating to this topic, I agree that perhaps the focus should now be on what exactly "Salat" means.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Layth on January 12, 2012, 11:15:33 AM
Salam Herbman,

Quote
how would name the noon salat as per Qur'an?

The name is "Wusta/Middle" - which makes perfect sence as the Salat time streches from noon till sunset.

Salam Redsuphur,

Quote
While 20:130 mentions multiple times for glorification (more than 3), no reference is made to this as Salat, especially since Salat is separately mentioned in 20:132

I think you missed the point I was making. Verse 20:130 uses the word "Atraaf Alnahhar" - meaning there are "3 or more" edges/parts to the day. Verse 11:114 uses the words "Tarafi Alnahhar" - meaning it is only referring to "2" of these edges/parts.

Thus to assume that 11:114 is referring to dawn and dusk is incorrect - it is referring to dawn and noon (the first 2 parts/edges of the day).
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: mmkhan on January 13, 2012, 02:20:43 AM
Salaam,

Brother RedSulpher  :welcome: to the forum.


As per my understanding 11:114 refers to a single Salaat at 2 parts/edges of day [i.e., Salaat AlFajr] as there are many edges of the day.

In contrast to Eishaan there are many edges used by their names in AlQuraan.

AlAshiyee wa AlAbkaar - AlAbkaar is an edge of day [morning] 3:41
AlGhadaati wa AlAshiyee - AlGhadaati is an edge of day [morning] 6:52
AlAshiyee wa AlIshraaq - AlIshraaq is an edge of day [morning] 38:18

Besides AlFajr we have three more times mentioned by their names, and also there is Subha, etc. This shows that there are many edges of the day. Now back to 11:114

11:114 وَ اَقِمِ الصَّلٰوۃَ طَرَفَیِ النَّہَارِ وَ زُلَفًا مِّنَ الَّیۡلِ ؕ اِنَّ الۡحَسَنٰتِ یُذۡہِبۡنَ السَّیِّاٰتِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ ذِکۡرٰی لِلذّٰکِرِیۡنَ
17:78 اَقِمِ الصَّلٰوۃَ لِدُلُوۡکِ الشَّمۡسِ اِلٰی غَسَقِ الَّیۡلِ وَ قُرۡاٰنَ الۡفَجۡرِ ؕ اِنَّ قُرۡاٰنَ الۡفَجۡرِ کَانَ مَشۡہُوۡدًا

AlSalaata is singular word used in both aayaats that clearly shows that it talks about a single Salaat before waw. Hence 11:114 also refers to a single Salaat at two edges of day [i.e., Salaat AlFajr] and another Salaat refers to Salaat AlEishaan.


May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: missabou on January 13, 2012, 09:27:31 PM
I'm new to this group, so I'm still learning.  My question is, what about the hadith Allah told Mohammed believers should pray 50 times a day and Mohammed finally got Allah to agree with only 5 prayers per day.  How do the hadith fit in with the Quran?  The idea of prayer at the beginning of the day and end of the day makes a lot of sense just taking what is in the Quran.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: mmkhan on January 14, 2012, 01:22:39 AM
I'm new to this group, so I'm still learning.  My question is, what about the hadith Allah told Mohammed believers should pray 50 times a day and Mohammed finally got Allah to agree with only 5 prayers per day.  How do the hadith fit in with the Quran?  The idea of prayer at the beginning of the day and end of the day makes a lot of sense just taking what is in the Quran.

:welcome: missabou,

The highlighted part above is from me.

It really makes me laugh on that part because I remember aayat 35:44

35:44 اَوَ لَمۡ یَسِیۡرُوۡا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ فَیَنۡظُرُوۡا کَیۡفَ کَانَ عَاقِبَۃُ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِمۡ وَ کَانُوۡۤا اَشَدَّ مِنۡہُمۡ قُوَّۃً ؕ وَ مَا کَانَ اللّٰہُ لِیُعۡجِزَہٗ مِنۡ شَیۡءٍ فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ لَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ اِنَّہٗ کَانَ عَلِیۡمًا قَدِیۡرًا
35:44    Did they not roam the earth and note how was the consequence for those who were before them? And they were even more powerful than they in strength. But nothing can inhibit God be it in the heavens, or the earth. He is Knowledgeable, Omnipotent.

Please look at the Arabic word "aajiz"

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path  :pr
mmKhan

Sorry for  :offtopic:
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: missabou on January 14, 2012, 08:20:23 AM
Salaam!  Thank you for all the good information! May Allah bless you.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: redsulphur1229 on January 16, 2012, 01:40:43 PM
Salaam missabou

You asked about the hadith where Salat was reduced from 50 to 5.  Frankly, it does not fit into any discussion of the Quran - the Quran makes no mention of 5 prayers, and the only support for it is the hadith.  Personally, I do not accept the authenticity of hadith generally being 150 plus years after the fact, based on hearsay upon hearsay, and the result of Abbasid political influence.  The hadith regarding the 5 prayers is particularly suspectm mostly because, on its face, of the 3 players in the hadith, only Moses is portrayed as having more sense than even Allah and Muhammad.  The following is the full text of that hadith, from Bokhari:


Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345: Narrated Abu Dhar: Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'
Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet ) met Adarn on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.?
Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham.? The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we '' reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: GODsubmitter on March 28, 2012, 03:18:52 PM
Quote
Such a prayer time would be consistent with the practice of Jews who ceased all selling prior to sunset (and not in the early afternoon) on Fridays in preparation for the Sabbath.  In other words, that the Quran is inviting all Muslims to close their markets at the same time as the Jews but to also gather for the Salat is a reasonable interpretation of this verse

I agree with you on this redsulphur1229.

There is an excellent article confirming that:

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p274.html
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Lachini on April 01, 2012, 12:29:27 PM
Salaam redsulphur1229

   It seems unreasonable that God sets time for glorifying or remembering Him. According to the Quran we must always glorify and remember God. Therefore , in my opinion the times mentioned refer to the contact prayers and contact prayers have different titles and not only one presupposed title, ie salaat.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: GODsubmitter on April 05, 2012, 09:15:21 AM
Very interesting point Lachini.
What is it, according to you, then, a format for the prayer and the salat, instead of traditional 5 times ritualistic Muslim prayer worship?
Thank you
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Lachini on April 14, 2012, 07:01:42 AM
Salaam

Dear Godsubmitter

Upon your request I studied the subject from different sources and I came to the conclusion that redsulphur 1229 is right but he mistranslates some of the Quranic verses or quotes them from the  mistranslated sources.

For instance :

وَ أَقِمِ الصَّلاةَ طَرَفَيِ النَّهار : Establish worship at the two ends of the day

If the two ends of the day were the case , then طرفین must have been used. طرفین is a dual plural in Arabic meaning two ends or two edges but طَرَفَيِ means only one end and in this case one end of the day.

Surely my conclusion may be wrong and therefore I need your and the other friends' help and guidance.

May God bless you. 
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: progressive1993 on May 21, 2012, 06:45:22 PM
Peace,

Salam,

The easiest pitfall of 11:114 is to "assume" that the day only has 2 parts (thus we end up looking at dusk & dawn - and since "near night" is dusk, we assume the verse is simply being repeptitive).

The day has at least 3 parts (see 20:130) - which means that 11:114 is refering to the "first 2 parts" (dawn & noon) while the last part os refering to the 3rd Salat "dusk" which is near the night.

Taraf = extremity/edge, so it definitely refers to sunset and sunrise, but the parts that are in proximity/closeness to the night - dawn and dusk.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Wakas on May 22, 2012, 04:30:23 AM
salaam/peace all,

Taraf = extremity/edge, so it definitely refers to sunset and sunrise, but the parts that are in proximity/closeness to the night - dawn and dusk.


Isn't it amazing people dont realise that when it says adjacent/proximal/near, they dont ask, "near to what?". If they did ask this simple question, all would become clear.


Quran clearly implies a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen/believers. Only two are named in it. There is a reasonable example of two daily in Quran itself (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602015.msg271810#msg271810), and in early Islamic history, they clearly show it was two. Seems convincing to me.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2012, 12:45:43 PM
Do you think the number of prayer per day is the most important?

How come everyone is still discussing it if it was that clear?

What about the ones who want to pray more than 2,3,5 ....:

6:52″ Do not dismiss those who implore(pray to) their Lord day and night, (Asking their creator to help them decide in this life!) devoting themselves to HIM ALONE.( They are not wasting your time!) You are not responsible for their reckoning, nor are they responsible for your reckoning.( It is their own time!) If you dismiss them, ( You are being unfair!) you will be a transgressor.?

I agree with one thing, that you should ponder the word of GOD to check for yourself, after all:

27:84″ When they arrive, HE ( GOD-your creator-) will say:? You have rejected my revelations before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?? ?

Has GOD left it up to us?
Peace.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: nurmuhammed on May 29, 2012, 10:26:11 AM
http://www.aididsafar.com/mental.html


no RITUAL!!!!
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: good logic on May 29, 2012, 10:48:38 AM
I am asking you to acquire knowledge about the revelations of your lord! ( 27:84)

I am not asking you to do any "ritual".
Peace.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: Mr.Q on May 29, 2012, 11:45:24 AM
Has GOD left it up to us?
Peace.

Of course He has!  ;)  He has left it up to us to use our reason and intellect to the best of our ability and to follow and apply the Quran in our lives to the best of our ability and understanding, with sincerity.

I think that is a big part of our Test - to follow others without knowledge or understanding or to follow only that with which we have a reasonable understanding of for ourselves. If that is only twice? Then do that. If you find 3 times, then do that and if you find 5 then do that too and put your trust in God and always be willing to listen to other points of view and understandings to keep learning.
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: mmkhan on June 22, 2012, 11:14:24 PM
Of course He has!  ;)  He has left it up to us to use our reason and intellect to the best of our ability and to follow and apply the Quran in our lives to the best of our ability and understanding, with sincerity.

I think that is a big part of our Test - to follow others without knowledge or understanding or to follow only that with which we have a reasonable understanding of for ourselves. If that is only twice? Then do that. If you find 3 times, then do that and if you find 5 then do that too and put your trust in God and always be willing to listen to other points of view and understandings to keep learning.

Salaam all,

I agree to each and everything what Q wrote... oops! I mean what Mr. Q wrote.  :)


May Allah guide us all to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
Title: Re: Salat - only two times mentioned in the Quran
Post by: mirjamnur on June 23, 2012, 07:57:10 AM
Of course He has!  ;)  He has left it up to us to use our reason and intellect to the best of our ability and to follow and apply the Quran in our lives to the best of our ability and understanding, with sincerity.

I think that is a big part of our Test - to follow others without knowledge or understanding or to follow only that with which we have a reasonable understanding of for ourselves. If that is only twice? Then do that. If you find 3 times, then do that and if you find 5 then do that too and put your trust in God and always be willing to listen to other points of view and understandings to keep learning.
i like it so much :) thanks for your wise words