Free Minds

I have a friend. She is looking after the property were I live. I am not an actual friend like someone to go out with or that. But she has helped me so much and is planing on giving me suport with bringing me stuff to hospital if the psychiatrists lock me up(I sugest you read in the health and fitness section my post were I talk about how God helped me with getting rid of schizophrenia).

So, she is ad good as gold. Now she is a catholic and she knows I am a Muslim who follows only the Quran. She says that she is a modern catholic women.

Now I really feel Like praying to God so that he would guide her in life but am not sure what would Quran say to that. I know that you are not supose to pray for polytheists and Catholics do have their saint thing that they are big on.

So, yeah can we pray for Catholics and other Christians, also can we pray for atheists who have helped us in life? Pray to God to guide them to himself.

Thanks

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Ervin: Per my understanding, there is no harm in asking for Guidance.

60:4 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father: "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

From my understanding, we are NOT supposed to ask for forgiveness for another--but asking ALLAH to help another (if ALLAH knows it to be best) seems to be acceptable.

Maybe ALLAH will provide an opening for you to peacefully and politely discuss belief. In such a case, starting by talking about Abraham (peace upon all prophets) may be fruitful, ISA.

ALLAH knows best. May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

I frequently pray for everybody. Everybody, everything belongs to God, is his deed, so how could we not pray for what is His, just like us? I pray for His will be done and that we may accept it?

I pray with His names to shower His blessing as He sees fit. And in special circumstances I ask for more particulr things, but above all that whatever may be, He guide us to accept it and forgive us. Who that "us" is is instictive, and I suppose it includes those who want to be forgiven.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on November 16, 2011, 09:30:43 AM
I frequently pray for everybody. Everybody, everything belongs to God, is his deed, so how could we not pray for what is His, just like us? I pray for His will be done and that we may accept it?
I pray with His names to shower His blessing as He sees fit. And in special circumstances I ask for more particulr things, but above all that whatever may be, He guide us to accept it and forgive us. Who that "us" is is instictive, and I suppose it includes those who want to be forgiven.
Salaam

Peace Huruf!  :peace:
What you just stated is Very Well put!
I also pray for others as well, and most of the times, it's people who i don't know. God Created ALL people, they're His Creations, whether Bad of Good!   
We are blessed of the belief in God Almighty, and so it should be incompetant upon us to "Bless" the world i should say, because some people are not fortunate enough to have that knowledge! 
Furthuremore, God's Mercy is Closer to those who are nice, and the Divine Law is that Those who show Goodness, Goodness will be shown to them, and so praying for others is a nice thing!

See: God's System of Righteousness  (God's System of Reward for the Rightous)
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602900
Peace  :peace:

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Book stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in  good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3:113-115

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Book, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3:199

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62

If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them 4.124

Christians and Jews are monotheist. So I am not sure why the question about praying for them. The criteria the koran uses is faith in God and the hereafter. The Koran is non sectarian.

Quote from: Ervin on November 16, 2011, 05:17:14 AM

So, yeah can we pray for Catholics and other Christians, also can we pray for atheists who have helped us in life? Pray to God to guide them to himself.

No you cannot!! If you do you shall become an apostate!! And hell for all eternity!!

Ok kidding aside.. yes of course.. why not... pray for anyone and/or anything....

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Bigmo on November 17, 2011, 02:57:08 AM
Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Book stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in  good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3:113-115

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Book, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3:199

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62

If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them 4.124

Christians and Jews are monotheist. So I am not sure why the question about praying for them. The criteria the koran uses is faith in God and the hereafter. The Koran is non sectarian.

Peace bigmo and everyone else. Couldn't you say that if Catholics who pray to or through the saints are going to be ok if they do deeds of righteousness that then the sunnis, sufis and others who do deeds of righteousness will be successful in the hearafter.

Thanks

Why would you want to pray for someone who Allah purposely misguided? Do you doubt his wisdom? Have you not read the story of the prophet Noah ?

Quote11:42    And while it was running with them in waves like mountains, Noah called to his son, who was in an isolated place: "My son, ride with us, and do not be with the rejecters!"
11:43    He said: "I will take refuge to the mountain which will protect me from the water." He said: "There is no protection from the decree of God except for those He has granted mercy." And the wave came between them, so he was one of those who drowned.
11:44    And it was said: "O land, swallow your water, and O sky, cease." And the water was diminished, and the matter concluded. And it came to rest on the Judi, and it was said: "Away with the wicked people."
11:45    And Noah called on his Lord, and he said: "My Lord, my son is from my family, and your promise is the truth, and you are the Wisest of all Judges."
11:46    He said: "O Noah, he is not from your family, he was of an unrighteous deed, so do not ask what you have no knowledge of. I advise you not to be of the ignorant."
11:47    He said: "My Lord, I seek refuge with You from asking You what I do not have knowledge of. And if You do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I will be of the losers!"

It is your choice.

QuoteI also pray for others as well, and most of the times, it's people who i don't know. God Created ALL people, they're His Creations, whether Bad of Good!

So because Allah created everyone, we should pray for their salvation? Thus it means, that you also pray for the forgiveness and guidance of Satan, right ? You are indeed, a proved devil. 

QuoteChristians and Jews are monotheist. So I am not sure why the question about praying for them. The criteria the koran uses is faith in God and the hereafter. The Koran is non sectarian.

When you do know something, it is best if you abstain from spreading lies and things you are not sure of. Christians are polytheists who adhere to a fully corrupted Bible, the 'Nasara' spoken of in the Qu'ran are the Nazarites and NOT the Christians. 

QuotePeace bigmo and everyone else. Couldn't you say that if Catholics who pray to or through the saints are going to be ok if they do deeds of righteousness that then the sunnis, sufis and others who do deeds of righteousness will be successful in the hearafter.

Thanks

It goes against logic to say that a Catholic is going to Paradise if he/she does good deeds. It is similar to say that a Sunni will go to Paradise if he/she does good deeds. Catholics are big polytheists, people who have been purposely lost and blinded by Allah because of what their hands have done. It does not matter how much good things they do or did, they will abide in Hell forever.

Quote from: Iznagen on November 27, 2011, 11:59:18 AM
Why would you want to pray for someone who Allah purposely misguided? Do you doubt his wisdom? Have you not read the story of the prophet Noah ?

It is your choice.

So because Allah created everyone, we should pray for their salvation? Thus it means, that you also pray for the forgiveness and guidance of Satan, right ? You are indeed, a proved devil. 

When you do know something, it is best if you abstain from spreading lies and things you are not sure of. Christians are polytheists who adhere to a fully corrupted Bible, the 'Nasara' spoken of in the Qu'ran are the Nazarites and NOT the Christians. 

It goes against logic to say that a Catholic is going to Paradise if he/she does good deeds. It is similar to say that a Sunni will go to Paradise if he/she does good deeds. Catholics are big polytheists, people who have been purposely lost and blinded by Allah because of what their hands have done. It does not matter how much good things they do or did, they will abide in Hell forever.

The problem with many new Koranist who come from a Sunni/Shia background is that they still have many aspects of sectarian Islam in them. They don't understand that it takes some time before the Sunni/Shia influence fades from them. They talk in many ways just like a salafi does. They come from a background where kufr, haram and shirk are used generously and they assume that the Koran sees it that way when in reality it does not.

As if praying has any kind of effect at all. I'd do some push-ups if I was you

Quote from: Bigmo on November 28, 2011, 03:13:26 AM
The problem with many new Koranist who come from a Sunni/Shia background is that they still have many aspects of sectarian Islam in them. They don't understand that it takes some time before the Sunni/Shia influence fades from them. They talk in many ways just like a salafi does. They come from a background where kufr, haram and shirk are used generously and they assume that the Koran sees it that way when in reality it does not.

Yup.. 100% agree...

Little they realize that:
1. islam is not a religion or sect
2. moslem is attainable through virtues & deeds and not through membership of certain religion or sect.
3. there are moslems nearly within every religion or sect.

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Bigmo on November 28, 2011, 03:13:26 AM
The problem with many new Koranist who come from a Sunni/Shia background is that they still have many aspects of sectarian Islam in them. They don't understand that it takes some time before the Sunni/Shia influence fades from them. They talk in many ways just like a salafi does. They come from a background where kufr, haram and shirk are used generously and they assume that the Koran sees it that way when in reality it does not.

The problem with many Muslims (if you would have read the Quran, you'd understand that it is what Allah has called us) is that they prejudge with no knowledge whatsoever (ex: you and Jafar). You are very wrong in what you have said anyway. It does not matter, we will both fully be judged and we will see who used to invent and lie.

Quote from: Ervin on November 16, 2011, 05:17:14 AMCan we pray for our christian friends?

You can surely pray to Allah for everybody so that Allah would guide him/her.

but the BIG problem is, that you can not take christians as friends  :D

5:51 O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as friends; these are friends of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

worse is, catholics are not only disbelievers of the people of book, but also mushriks since they associate Messiah to Allah

9:31 They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

therefore they are  simply shit acc. to Quran

9:28 O you who acknowledge, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this calendar year of theirs. If you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

If you are a true follower of Quran and not a follower of fake messengers such as RK and sahabas like EY (the American kurd) think on the above words of Allah.

peace

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments in purple, AQ quotes in red.

Quote from: ggg on November 28, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
You can surely pray to Allah for everybody so that Allah would guide him/her.

but the BIG problem is, that you can not take christians as friends  :D

5:51 O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as friends; these are friends of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

5:51  O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as allies [awliyāa], for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. GOD does not guide the wicked people.

Khalīlan means friend, and is found in 4:125, 17:73, 25:28, and 43:67. There is a vast difference between friend and ally. There is no prohibition against having friends of different faiths. Remember, where no prohibition exists:

7:32 Say: "Who has made unlawful the nice things that GOD has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say: "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.

5:87 O you who believe, do not make unlawful the good things that GOD has made lawful to you, and do not aggress; GOD does not love the aggressors.

Further, we are instructed to invite to the deen. It is difficult to invite if separated from those needing invitations.  

41:33 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says: "I am one of those who have submitted."

The label of religion doesn't matter. There are multitudes of monotheistic Christians--and many other faiths as well.

3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nazarene, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.

worse is, catholics are not only disbelievers of the people of book, but also mushriks since they associate Messiah to Allah

Not all Christians are Catholic. Even those nominally within the fold of Catholocism may privately hold different beliefs. We are not the judge of any--and with strangers, our opinions matter even less. We should attempt to master ourselves and, ISA, invite others.

9:31 They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

therefore they are  simply shit acc. to Quran

I do not find this in AQ. What I find is this:

2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in GOD and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

6:108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.

42:13 He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it. Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. GOD chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.

Do you see? Those who follow the teachings of Jesus (peace upon all prophets) or any other prophet is guided. There are many people in many different "religions" who follow teachings without taking partners beside ALLAH. ALLAH knows best who submits to ALLAH.

9:28 O you who acknowledge, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this calendar year of theirs. If you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

7:157 "Those who follow the Gentile messenger prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel; he orders them to kindness, and prohibits them from vice, and he makes lawful for them the good things, and he makes unlawful for them the evil things, and he removes their burden and the shackles that are upon them. So those who believe in him, and support him, and help him persevere, and follow the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful ones."

If you are a true follower of Quran and not a follower of fake messengers such as RK and sahabas like EY (the American kurd) think on the above words of Allah.

peace

I've recently found out that my brother rejects trinity and does not take any partners besides ALLAH.  :) I believe in the COMPLETE instructions of ALLAH. Much mischief occurs due to taking things out of context.

May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers. ALLAH knows best.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you,
and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you,
and give you peace.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

Peace. Well said Bigmo and Abdul Hadi. Your understandings are more in line with my understanding of the Quran. However sometimes i have to ask and if helps a lot when you can get someone who speaks Arabic and who is willing to say it as it is.

I would alo ask everyone to check out the thread that i posted earlier. The thread is How do we know who are those that God had condemned. Again Arabic speaking brkthers and sisters maybe have an answer.

Thanks

And if Allah guided someone, because you prayed, would you fall flat on your face? I am not saying that it is impossible, but like the story of noah, don`t be like the ignorant.  So are you supposed to pray all the time for the people of the earth? Ofcourse the angels in heaven pray for those in the earth, but I don`t think that is ritual prayer, more like hope.
Ritual prayer for everyone is not your duty. Prayer serves to be conscious of one God. Monotheistic awareness. The quran says "those who pray and purify themselves". Indeed if you take in the words of prayer, you start a process of purification, and monotheistic awareness. Once you are there, and are correcly aware, you can ask yourself if prayer for others, is something you`d do in that state of mind.

Peace.

Quote from: ggg on November 28, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
9:31 They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD.

This description fit perfectly with the common sunnis/salafis/wahhabis/shiites and any other sectarians isn't it? (e.g. catholics, orthodox, rabbanic judaism etc..)

Nonetheless.. I continue my good friendship and relations with them.... and send greetings, wishes and pray for them too..

As it's incorrect to fight sectarian behavior with another sectarian behavior....

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Ervin on November 28, 2011, 07:39:36 PM
Peace. Well said Bigmo and Abdul Hadi. Your understandings are more in line with my understanding of the Quran. However sometimes i have to ask and if helps a lot when you can get someone who speaks Arabic and who is willing to say it as it is.

I would alo ask everyone to check out the thread that i posted earlier. The thread is How do we know who are those that God had condemned. Again Arabic speaking brkthers and sisters maybe have an answer.

Thanks

Right. The way the Koran understands Iman and kufr is not the same way as most Muslims or Jews or Christians do. This is because the Koran does not seperate between the prophets. So to say a person is Jewish if his mother is Jewish is not old Testament talk. This is Rabbinic talk. To say that only through Jesus is their salvation is not Gospel talk, but Trinitarian talk. To say a believer is one who believes in the 5 pillars of Islam is not Koranic talk, but sectarian Islam talk.

Quote from: Bigmo on November 29, 2011, 09:49:18 AM
Right. The way the Koran understands Iman and kufr is not the same way as most Muslims or Jews or Christians do. This is because the Koran does not seperate between the prophets. So to say a person is Jewish if his mother is Jewish is not old Testament talk. This is Rabbinic talk. To say that only through Jesus is their salvation is not Gospel talk, but Trinitarian talk. To say a believer is one who believes in the 5 pillars of Islam is not Koranic talk, but sectarian Islam talk.

Exactly!

There are THREE groups in mankind, NOT the illusory 300000000000 zillion different sectarian divisions:

1 - The foremost: Those exclusive in seeking truth & good deeds
1 - The companions of the right hand: Following the foremost and seeking truth and doing good deeds but in a more passive fashion
0 - Companions of the left hand: No comment!

So basically a person is a 1 or a 0. And they can be an active or a passive 1, but as for 0s there is no distinction, it doesn't matter: injustice is injustice.
A person can go between these categories whenever they please but there are specific rules. Once you are a companion of the left hand twice there is no turning back (3:90 amongst others).
Peace

Peace. I understand that it says not to take Christians as alies and not to be friends with disbelievers but  then in 60:8 says that its ok but only if they are not fighting against you.

60:8  Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Now all the professionals I am dealing with, who can and want to help me with things are not Muslims. What if for instance  you need to go to court and there are  no Muslim solicitors, should you represent your self even if youdont  have any clue about how to do it. Should you just go to fourth, represent your self and put faith in God?
I mean does not verse 60:8 meant that if they don't fight you then you can take them ad allies?

Thanks

Peace.
Using Professional services is not forbidden.

Peace,

Why do we judge based on emotions?  Just because a Christian (Trinitarian) seems nice, you think you can rationalize that they will go to heaven?  This is why we follow the Quran, because God knows how we should live better than we know ourselves.  We are speaking English so it is different from what the Arabic Quran says.  What GGG said is the truth.  What does it say in the Quran about them?

Yusuf Ali Translation
4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

5:72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

5:73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Are they labeled as Christians?  No, these people are polytheists.  Therefore, if we go by Quranic English vocabulary, the definition of these people are not Christian.   They are like any other polytheist.  It's like someone claiming that they are Muslim but believe in a Trinity with Allah, Manaat and Al-Uzzah.  How hard is it to understand this? 

In the end, whatever they worship and what we worship does not benefit or hurt Allah at all.  It is all on our own self.  The fact of the matter is that the most important commandment from God is that "There is no other deity but God".  That includes, not ascribing partners to him (ie. "Christians").  If someone claims they are Christian but do not worship Jesus (ie. Jehovahs Witness) they are better off.  Doesn't God state that the only sin that He will not forgive is shirk?  Of course if God wanted to He could, but he states that he won't if maintained through death.  However, any other sins, if God wants (not that he will), He can forgive.  Shirk is worse than murder/adultery/lying/rape/etc., isn't that right?  Therefore, a person who does good things but commits shirk and dies (ie. Mother Teresa?) is not in a good position. 

Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying we should avoid these people and treat them like a disease.  All I am saying is speak the truth from the Quran.  I also ascribe to the idea that religion is manmade.  Quran clearly says that the only way of life (translated as religion) that is acceptable by God is Submission.  Does Trinitarian Christians practice Submission?  Something to reflect on.

Peace

Quote from: Iznagen on November 28, 2011, 04:13:18 PM
The problem with many Muslims (if you would have read the Quran, you'd understand that it is what Allah has called us) is that they prejudge with no knowledge whatsoever (ex: you and Jafar). You are very wrong in what you have said anyway. It does not matter, we will both fully be judged and we will see who used to invent and lie.

I have been witnessed for a while that you have a serious problem with your attitude. I would kindly suggest you to show basic manners and respect towards others in this forum. Brother Jafar and brother Bigmo are seniors here on freeminds and our deeply respected brothers. They are much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran than you would ever do, so I wound kindly suggest you to listen and learn instead of attacking and insulting.

Peace.

Quote from: Jafar on November 28, 2011, 11:35:28 AM
Yup.. 100% agree...

Little they realize that:
1. islam is not a religion or sect
2. moslem is attainable through virtues & deeds and not through membership of certain religion or sect.
3. there are moslems nearly within every religion or sect.

Salam / Peace

May God bless us with more of your enlightening knowledge brother  :bravo:

Peace

Quote from: Maha on December 10, 2011, 02:28:54 PM
I have been witnessed for a while that you have a serious problem with your attitude. I would kindly suggest you to show basic manners and respect towards others in this forum. Brother Jafar and brother Bigmo are seniors here on freeminds and our deeply respected brothers. They are much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran than you would ever do,  so I wound kindly suggest you to listen and learn instead of attacking and insulting.

Peace.

I think you have a serious problem; you only resgistered last week and yet you have taken it upon yourself to dictate to others who to listen to and behave and you give your verdict as to who is much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran
I would kindly suggest you get your head examined as it's grown a bit too big.
:peace:

Quote from: IMHO on December 10, 2011, 05:26:20 PM
I think you have a serious problem; you only resgistered last week and yet you have taken it upon yourself to dictate to others who to listen to and behave and you give your verdict as to who is much more wiser and possess much more deep knowledge about the quran
I would kindly suggest you get your head examined as it's grown a bit too big.
:peace:

Hello IMHO. I have been passive learning and reading freeminders for years although i never debated because I did not considered myself to possess so much knowledge at that time. But now I think that I have learned enough from freeminds now that I can actually engage in debates, hence I made my profile. Do you got any problem with it?

Hey by the way IMHO. You also have serious problem with you attitude just like your good friend Iznagen. You two have been VERY rude to others in this forum. I kindly suggest you two's to stop acting like small children and instead start learning how to converse and debate like grown up adults.

Peace

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Maha:I find that using the "ignore" function in the profile helps--on about a dozen or so folks (for me, so far).

Maybe it is for the best that negative attitudes show in certain persons; when someone "outs" themself with discourteous discourse, their arguments are usually (not always) grounded in opinion instead of AQ.

May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

Quote from: amuslim on December 09, 2011, 01:41:50 AM
Why do we judge based on emotions?  Just because a Christian (Trinitarian) seems nice, you think you can rationalize that they will go to heaven?

1. It's not for us to judge who shall go to heaven.
2. The habits of 'judging other people' is a very bad habit, a legacy from sectarianism or specifically the pharisee judaism sect.. A jewish dude 2000 years ago said; 'don't judge lest you yourselves shall also be judged'.
3. The notion of only certain member from certain religion (or religions) shall go to  'heaven' is as ridiculous as the notion of only American citizens shall go to heaven and/or only Saudis citizen shall go to heaven.

Quote
Quran clearly says that the only way of life (translated as religion) that is acceptable by God is Submission.  Does Trinitarian Christians practice Submission?  Something to reflect on.

Dien is 'attitude,opinion,judgement' (towards something).
The Quran said the (proper) attitude,opinion,judgement (dien) to / towards God is submit/peacefully and gladly accept (islam).

"Let Your will be done, on earth as it is on heaven"

That's the excerpt from the "Lord's prayer" which millions of people commonly labeled as 'christian' said in their daily prayer, as taught by a jewish dude named Iashua about 2000 years ago....

Salam / Peace

Peace

Quote from: Jafar on December 10, 2011, 07:22:33 PM
1. It's not for us to judge who shall go to heaven.
2. The habits of 'judging other people' is a very bad habit, a legacy from sectarianism or specifically the pharisee judaism sect.. A jewish dude 2000 years ago said; 'don't judge lest you yourselves shall also be judged'.
3. The notion of only certain member from certain religion (or religions) shall go to  'heaven' is as ridiculous as the notion of only American citizens shall go to heaven and/or only Saudis citizen shall go to heaven.

I agree with your statements completely.  I am saying that people saying that "Trinitarian Christians" are safe from God's punishment is no different than saying Abraham's father is going to heaven.  The two ways of belief are the same, shirk.  God tells us that He will not forgive it, not me.  Yet, people contradict what God says.  That in itself is judging.

I am not one to judge.  As I mentioned, it is up to God.  I am simply reminding everyone not to say things because their emotion leads them to.  Don't spread false teachings.  Speak from the Quran, not emotion.

Quote
Dien is 'attitude,opinion,judgement' (towards something).
The Quran said the (proper) attitude,opinion,judgement (dien) to / towards God is submit/peacefully and gladly accept (islam).

"Let Your will be done, on earth as it is on heaven"

That's the excerpt from the "Lord's prayer" which millions of people commonly labeled as 'christian' said in their daily prayer, as taught by a jewish dude named Iashua about 2000 years ago....

Salam / Peace

Yet they associate partners and make partners with God with a mere creation?  Christians completely go against the teachings of Christ.  They are the Quranic definition of polytheists.  Notice that when the Quran speaks of those that worship Jesus, he doesn't say that they are the Nazarenes (translated in English as Christian).  It's all a matter of terminology.  Today's Christians are not the people that God is talking about in the Quran.  It is simply a translation issue.

BTW, you sure Esau taught them the Lords Prayer?  You know that there are two different Lord's Prayer right?  You also know that according to the latest discoveries, the first "Gospel" wasn't written till about 30 to 40 after his "death".  Also, to accept what he supposedly said in the Christian Bible is dangerous, as he contradicts himself since it is not the Word of God but a compilation of many men over a 1000 years.

I also saw that you said that there are Muslims in other religions and sects.  I agree with that statement, but they need to follow the fundamental principle of Submission, strict monotheism.  Many indigenous beliefs believed in this before exposure to the West, yet Christians came in and destroyed this belief.  The very ones that called people kafirs are the primary example of what polytheists are. 

Of course, God knows us each individually and knows how we believe.  God is the best judge.

Peace

Quote from: Abdul-Hadi on December 10, 2011, 06:10:19 PM
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Maha:I find that using the "ignore" function in the profile helps--on about a dozen or so folks (for me, so far).

Maybe it is for the best that negative attitudes show in certain persons; when someone "outs" themself with discourteous discourse, their arguments are usually (not always) grounded in opinion instead of AQ.

May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

Thanks for your advice, brother.

amuslim

QuoteYet they associate partners and make partners with God with a mere creation?  Christians completely go against the teachings of Christ.  They are the Quranic definition of polytheists.  Notice that when the Quran speaks of those that worship Jesus, he doesn't say that they are the Nazarenes (translated in English as Christian).  It's all a matter of terminology.  Today's Christians are not the people that God is talking about in the Quran.  It is simply a translation issue.
   

I think you got a very narrow-minded defination of what it means to be a christian. First of all, not all christians believe in the divinity of Jesus. Third thing, if Christians all make partners with God as you claim, Than todays muslims must be in the same category since they make excately the same claims about Muhammad. And yes God is sometimes talking about todays christians, just look at the verse warning them for believeing in the divinity of jesus.

Quote
I also saw that you said that there are Muslims in other religions and sects.  I agree with that statement, but they need to follow the fundamental principle of Submission, strict monotheism.  Many indigenous beliefs believed in this before exposure to the West, yet Christians came in and destroyed this belief.  The very ones that called people kafirs are the primary example of what polytheists are. 

   

Let me add: there is also kaffirs in every religion and sects, including among todays muslims. And there is no religion today who strictly follows monotheism(but judaism is very close to strict monotheism) and NO the muslim beleif claims to be a strict monotheism religion  while it has actually made Muhammad as Gods partner. But there are people who follow a strict monotheism despite of their religion.

So, there are also muslims among the Westernes and the christians.

Peace Maha

QuoteI think you got a very narrow-minded defination of what it means to be a christian. First of all, not all christians believe in the divinity of Jesus. Third thing, if Christians all make partners with God as you claim, Than todays muslims must be in the same category since they make excately the same claims about Muhammad. And yes God is sometimes talking about todays christians, just look at the verse warning them for believeing in the divinity of jesus.

First point you made.  If you read what I wrote and understood it, you should not have gotten that assumption.  I clearly stated that not all Christians were alike. 

Second point.  When did Muslims ever say Muhammad was God?  This is the claim of Trinitarian Christians, making a creation a partner with God.

Third point.  Who exactly is being addressed in the Qur'an when God mentions about the Trinity?  You seem to be confusing the usage of the word Christian here.  God doesn't say the word Christian at all in the Qur'an.  The Nazarenes were a Jewish sect of people that followed Christ's message and never worshiped Jesus.  They would have been considered heretics to the Church.  Similarly, we Muslims follow the same message that Jesus gave.  Majority of modern day Christians do not.  They do not follow the fundamental teaching of Jesus despite the clarity of his words in their own man-made book.

Quote
Let me add: there is also kaffirs in every religion and sects, including among todays muslims. And there is no religion today who strictly follows monotheism(but judaism is very close to strict monotheism) and NO the muslim beleif claims to be a strict monotheism religion  while it has actually made Muhammad as Gods partner. But there are people who follow a strict monotheism despite of their religion.

So, there are also muslims among the Westernes and the christians.

Kafir is someone that covers up the truth and disbelieves.  I wasn't saying that all people are kafirs but that the European Christians proselytize their faith to indigenous people (many of whom were Submitters already) and forced them to leave their path and follow the polytheistic Christian belief.  For example the native american peoples. African peoples, etc.

It is simple.  You either believe in the unity of God or you don't. 1+1+1 = 1 is not going to cut it.  You can't be a Trinitarian Christian and try and fool people that it is monotheistic.  I already gave an example of someone using Muhammad in the same way the Christians use Jesus.  It will never be accepted by God.  Have you even read the Qur'an?  All of what I am saying is not my words, it is from the Qur'an itself.

Peace 

Quote from: amuslim on December 11, 2011, 04:56:49 AM
Second point.  When did Muslims ever say Muhammad was God? 
---
I already gave an example of someone using Muhammad in the same way the Christians use Jesus.  It will never be accepted by God. 

The sunnis and shiites (and other Muhammedans group) actually consider Muhammad 'higher' than God.
Although it's 'subtle' and not exactly 'verbose'...

Some of the examples are:
- In the sirah+hadiths there are many examples of "God" nullified his Judgement and/or act in accordance to Muhammad's wishes. The most infamous story are the 'bargaining for rakaah' process..
- Their comprehension of 'shalawat' as glorifying and adoration (towards Muhammad) and they said that God and His angels also performing 'shalawat' as thus adoration and glorification to Muhammad (which is a twist from Quran verse)

Nevertheless I never judge the sunnis and shiites or any other Muhammedans group as 'forbidden from heaven' or 'shall be cursed to hell'..  And I'm applying the same view to those who worship other (dead) people such as Jesus.

What they're doing is  practically the same... dead people worshiping

I refrain myself from doing such gross act.. yet I didn't label them as 'kuffar' or 'cursed to hell' either.. as it's not my place and/or authority to judge...

To me:
It's not a problem when somebody worship a stone, as long as he's not enforcing that belief to me OR
Throwing that stone at me!! Now that's a big problem..!!

Salam / Peace

Quote from: amuslim on December 11, 2011, 04:56:49 AM
Peace Maha

First point you made.  If you read what I wrote and understood it, you should not have gotten that assumption.  I clearly stated that not all Christians were alike. 

Second point.  When did Muslims ever say Muhammad was God?  This is the claim of Trinitarian Christians, making a creation a partner with God.

Third point.  Who exactly is being addressed in the Qur'an when God mentions about the Trinity?  You seem to be confusing the usage of the word Christian here.  God doesn't say the word Christian at all in the Qur'an.  The Nazarenes were a Jewish sect of people that followed Christ's message and never worshiped Jesus.  They would have been considered heretics to the Church.  Similarly, we Muslims follow the same message that Jesus gave.  Majority of modern day Christians do not.  They do not follow the fundamental teaching of Jesus despite the clarity of his words in their own man-made book.

Kafir is someone that covers up the truth and disbelieves.  I wasn't saying that all people are kafirs but that the European Christians proselytize their faith to indigenous people (many of whom were Submitters already) and forced them to leave their path and follow the polytheistic Christian belief.  For example the native american peoples. African peoples, etc.

It is simple.  You either believe in the unity of God or you don't. 1+1+1 = 1 is not going to cut it.  You can't be a Trinitarian Christian and try and fool people that it is monotheistic.  I already gave an example of someone using Muhammad in the same way the Christians use Jesus.  It will never be accepted by God.  Have you even read the Qur'an?  All of what I am saying is not my words, it is from the Qur'an itself.

Peace

I dont see any quranic references in your words. So no you are talking from your mind, you are not reciting the quran. Have you even read the Quran?

Many muslims have imposed and forced people to accept Islam as well during all their islamic crusades.

Well if you cant be a muslim while believing in the trinity, than you cant be a muslim and believe in the hadiths as well. You seem to limit the belief in God according to your own understanding.

Peace

The only real difference between the Koran and mainstream Christianity is the Trinity. Islam and Judaism has many differences with the Koran because of the influence of the Talmud and Sunnah.

The Trinity is somewhat of a mystery as nobody has been able to explain it. But there is no real difference between the Koran and unitarian Christians. I think most Christians are confused about it and do not understand it themselves.

We do know this. Whatever you imagine God to be and have an image in your mind of Him is not Him.

What is true religion?

Strict monotheism (Surah 30.30)
Who are Strict Monotheist, and what are the characteristics of pure worship?

They worship only God, And do not put one prophet above another (Deuteronomy 6,4 and Surah 47:19, 3:84,144)

They do not have idols, human or otherwise (Exodus 20:4, surah 12:106, Surah 16:20,21  31:30, 46:4,5

They give to the poor, try to do what is right, and ask for forgiveness Nehamiah 9:17 Surah 3:133-135 4:106,110 and 24:22

Allah, the Arabic word for God refers to these monotheist, his true servants as ??Believers?? nearly 200 times in the Quran

God does no change Malakias 3:6 Surah 33:62

Those who fabricates false prohibitions and attribute them to God are truly wicked

Quote from: Bigmo on November 28, 2011, 03:13:26 AM
The problem with many new Koranist who come from a Sunni/Shia background is that they still have many aspects of sectarian Islam in them. They don't understand that it takes some time before the Sunni/Shia influence fades from them. They talk in many ways just like a salafi does. They come from a background where kufr, haram and shirk are used generously and they assume that the Koran sees it that way when in reality it does not.

Salaam Bigmo

You should also mention those who, in their attempt  to rid themselves of their sectarian past feel a need to criticise and mock mainstream muslims and to demonstrate the perceived irrelevance of prophet Muhammad to 'liberate' themselves. Freeminders rather than the Qur'an  has become their source of guidance, and they engage in endless vain talk, which is frowned upon in the Quran. They think they are scholars and give fatwas about others now. on: December 07, 2011, 05:03:59 AM ? You are still doomed to hell
Here is an excerpt form Maha's post above: I have been passive learning and reading freeminders for years although i never debated, because I did not considered myself to possess so much knowledge  at that time. But now I think that I have learned enough from freeminds  now that I can actually engage in debates. His/er posts shows standard of knowledge aquired from freeminds. :(

Sadly due to such bickering members the free-minds site is becoming more of a gossip corner than a forum for healthy exchange and because of this I'm reluctant to recommend free-minds to seekers.
:peace:

Quote from: IMHO on December 11, 2011, 12:27:38 PM
Salaam Bigmo

You should also mention those who, in their attempt  to rid themselves of their sectarian past feel a need to criticise and mock mainstream muslims and to demonstrate the perceived irrelevance of prophet Muhammad to 'liberate' themselves. Freeminders rather than the Qur'an  has become their source of guidance, and they engage in endless vain talk, which is frowned upon in the Quran. They think they are scholars and give fatwas about others now. on: December 07, 2011, 05:03:59 AM ? You are still doomed to hell
Here is an excerpt form Maha's post above: I have been passive learning and reading freeminders for years although i never debated, because I did not considered myself to possess so much knowledge  at that time. But now I think that I have learned enough from freeminds  now that I can actually engage in debates. His/er posts shows standard of knowledge aquired from freeminds. :(

Sadly due to such bickering members the free-minds site is becoming more of a gossip corner than a forum for healthy exchange and because of this I'm reluctant to recommend free-minds to seekers.
:peace:

Yes IMHO. The freeminder translation of the quran has been very helpful for me as well as many of their articles.

Peace

Peace

Quote from: Jafar on December 11, 2011, 06:01:42 AM
The sunnis and shiites (and other Muhammedans group) actually consider Muhammad 'higher' than God.
Although it's 'subtle' and not exactly 'verbose'...

Some of the examples are:
- In the sirah+hadiths there are many examples of "God" nullified his Judgement and/or act in accordance to Muhammad's wishes. The most infamous story are the 'bargaining for rakaah' process..
- Their comprehension of 'shalawat' as glorifying and adoration (towards Muhammad) and they said that God and His angels also performing 'shalawat' as thus adoration and glorification to Muhammad (which is a twist from Quran verse)

Nevertheless I never judge the sunnis and shiites or any other Muhammedans group as 'forbidden from heaven' or 'shall be cursed to hell'..  And I'm applying the same view to those who worship other (dead) people such as Jesus.

What they're doing is  practically the same... dead people worshiping

I refrain myself from doing such gross act.. yet I didn't label them as 'kuffar' or 'cursed to hell' either.. as it's not my place and/or authority to judge...

To me:
It's not a problem when somebody worship a stone, as long as he's not enforcing that belief to me OR
Throwing that stone at me!! Now that's a big problem..!!

Salam / Peace

Neither am I condemning, I am just saying what God says.  Similarly, I can be punished for whatever wrong doings I have done.  Worshiping in another deity besides God from what I understand does not mean eternal punishment, it just means that there will be punishment.  However severe it is up to God as God knows us each individually.

I am also aware of what you are talking about regarding Shia and Sunni.  While it is true, they still do not place Muhammad above God.  They make a clear distinction that the two are different.  Whether God changed the required 5000 rakahs (I think that's the number) because Muhammad pleaded or not, that still doesn't mean that God obeyed Muhammad. 

I agree with the stone thing.  The only reason I said anything is because some people here are promulgating that polytheists are safe from God's punishment, when the Qur'an says the opposite.

Quote from: MahaI dont see any quranic references in your words. So no you are talking from your mind, you are not reciting the quran. Have you even read the Quran?

Many muslims have imposed and forced people to accept Islam as well during all their islamic crusades.

Well if you cant be a muslim while believing in the trinity, than you cant be a muslim and believe in the hadiths as well. You seem to limit the belief in God according to your own understanding.

Peace

Pickthall Translation:
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (72) They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. (73) Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (75)

How much simpler can it get?  You are saying that what I said is full of conjecture, why do you not look at yourself?  If you believe a certain way then God commands you to bring proof.  If you have no proof then it is best to remain silent and ask questions for my reasoning.

Believing in Hadiths (I don't) is not equal to deifying Christ.  It's a corrupted form of Islam the religion, no doubt, but it is nowhere close to the polytheism that Trinitarians practice. 

As far as Muslims forcing others to be Muslim, that is against the Quran.  God states that "There is no compulsion in religion."  Those people will be punished for their sins as well.  However, we are speaking only about polytheists here (Trinitarians), so lets try not to derail the topic.  I only brought that part up to show you that Christians claim to be Monotheists but they go to native peoples and force them into their Polytheistic ways.

Peace

Quote from: amuslim on December 11, 2011, 01:36:27 PM
I am also aware of what you are talking about regarding Shia and Sunni.  While it is true, they still do not place Muhammad above God.  They make a clear distinction that the two are different.  Whether God changed the required 5000 rakahs (I think that's the number) because Muhammad pleaded or not, that still doesn't mean that God obeyed Muhammad. 

You make no remarks regarding the "God and His angels does shalawat to Mohammad" in accordance to Mohammedans belief.
And according to the Mohammedans, the reasons why people need to do 'shalawat' towards Mohammad is because Mohammad shall save them during the judgement day.

How's that not being considered as putting Muhammad as equal or above God??

Take a quick survey, attend the friday prayer at your local Mohammedan's mosque.. and during the sermon count how many times 'Muhammad' / 'Rasullullah' get mentioned and how many times 'God' / 'Allah' get mentioned..
I've done such survey few years ago.. the average stat was 1:4.. 1 Allah : 4 Muhammad..

Take a look at the caligraphy in Muhammedans mosque... there's Allah on the right and Muhammad on the left...

Quote
I agree with the stone thing.  The only reason I said anything is because some people here are promulgating that polytheists are safe from God's punishment, when the Qur'an says the opposite.

Well to be truly objective, the Quran does mentioned another form of 'polytheist' which is 'putting the imam/priest as their Rabb/Lord', which fit perfectly well with common Muhammedans too!!

As thus.. IF.. praying for trinitarians is forbidden because they're 'polytheist' so does praying for muhammedans.. since muhammedans can also be considered as 'polytheist'..
We need to apply the same standard right?

On day to day.. practical level.. this is very difficult... as we need to inquire people belief before praying for them.. 'do you believe in trinity? or do you believe that Muhammad shall save you on judgement day? or do you believe in ijma ulema can abrogate the Quran? or do you believe in hadith??" because if you said yes to any of those.. Sorry.. I can't pray for you... tough luck mate...

As such.. I would stick to YES.. we can pray for any of our friends.. regardless of their belief.. (christians, muhammedans whatever) And it doesn't matter anyway.. since it's up to God to decide whether to grant our prayer or not...

Quote
As far as Muslims forcing others to be Muslim, that is against the Quran.  God states that "There is no compulsion in religion."  Those people will be punished for their sins as well.  However, we are speaking only about polytheists here (Trinitarians), so lets try not to derail the topic.  I only brought that part up to show you that Christians claim to be Monotheists but they go to native peoples and force them into their Polytheistic ways.

Trinity get its root from 'three faces' of God found within Hinduism and also Ancient Egyptians..

It was a hellenistic Jews named Philo from Alexandria who came up with this 'three in one' hypothesis.. looks like he tried to combine Ancient Egyptians triune main deities (Osiris, Isis and Horus) with Jewish monotheism..

And it was in Egypt the 'messianic Jews' got their first stronghold and flourish... as thus the Egyptian influence are being carried forward throughout generations..

Having said that.. not all christians belief in 'trinity' and even for those who do.. the exact details of 'trinity' are widely varied.

Salam / Peace

Peace Jafar

Quote from: Jafar on December 11, 2011, 03:24:14 PM
You make no remarks regarding the "God and His angels does shalawat to Mohammad" in accordance to Mohammedans belief.
And according to the Mohammedans, the reasons why people need to do 'shalawat' towards Mohammad is because Mohammad shall save them during the judgement day.

How's that not being considered as putting Muhammad as equal or above God??

Take a quick survey, attend the friday prayer at your local Mohammedan's mosque.. and during the sermon count how many times 'Muhammad' / 'Rasullullah' get mentioned and how many times 'God' / 'Allah' get mentioned..
I've done such survey few years ago.. the average stat was 1:4.. 1 Allah : 4 Muhammad..

Take a look at the caligraphy in Muhammedans mosque... there's Allah on the right and Muhammad on the left...

I take the shalawat on a more extreme level on how Muslims great peace to the past prophets.  They are dead, but they still offer words of peace.  Now they send their supplications and include Muhammad and Ahl Al-Bayt for whatever reasons are ridiculous, but you cannot equate them with what Christians do.  It is not close.  While they may put their efforts and prayers through/to Muhammad, they do not blatantly worship him. 

It's simple.  Ask Muslims if Muhammad is God.  They say no.  Ask Christians if Jesus is God.  They say yes.  If Christians pray to Jesus and ask for his intercession, but do not worship Jesus as God, they are not polytheists like the majority of their Trinitarian brothers.

As far as the mosques are concern, are you referring to the Shahadah?

Quote
Well to be truly objective, the Quran does mentioned another form of 'polytheist' which is 'putting the imam/priest as their Rabb/Lord', which fit perfectly well with common Muhammedans too!!

As thus.. IF.. praying for trinitarians is forbidden because they're 'polytheist' so does praying for muhammedans.. since muhammedans can also be considered as 'polytheist'..
We need to apply the same standard right?

On day to day.. practical level.. this is very difficult... as we need to inquire people belief before praying for them.. 'do you believe in trinity? or do you believe that Muhammad shall save you on judgement day? or do you believe in ijma ulema can abrogate the Quran? or do you believe in hadith??" because if you said yes to any of those.. Sorry.. I can't pray for you... tough luck mate...

As such.. I would stick to YES.. we can pray for any of our friends.. regardless of their belief.. (christians, muhammedans whatever) And it doesn't matter anyway.. since it's up to God to decide whether to grant our prayer or not...

I am not arguing with anything you are saying.  Qur'an also talks about people that take money as a god.  I am simply commenting on polytheist Christians because the Qur'an addresses them.  I am conveying the message that God gave us, not my own.  Why should we start making exceptions and try and change God's Word (not you, but anyone that tries to do so)?

Quote
Trinity get its root from 'three faces' of God found within Hinduism and also Ancient Egyptians..

It was a hellenistic Jews named Philo from Alexandria who came up with this 'three in one' hypothesis.. looks like he tried to combine Ancient Egyptians triune main deities (Osiris, Isis and Horus) with Jewish monotheism..

And it was in Egypt the 'messianic Jews' got their first stronghold and flourish... as thus the Egyptian influence are being carried forward throughout generations..

Having said that.. not all christians belief in 'trinity' and even for those who do.. the exact details of 'trinity' are widely varied.

Salam / Peace

I shouldve been more clear when talking about Trinitarians, thank you brother.  When I refer to Trinitarian Christians, I am talking of those that claim Jesus is God, equal with the Father.  Jehovahs Witness are a good example that believe in a similar Trinity but do not associate Jesus as God.

In conclusion, there really is no argument with this issue.  It isn't my opinion, it is what God tells us.  If people wish to take some parts of the Quran and reject others because they don't like what God says, that's their prerogative and will be judged accordingly, as well I.  If I were to put my own emotions into the issue, I would have said a similar statement as Maha.   I use my evidence from Qur'an, not my subjective emotions.  Then again, God knows us better than we know ourselves.

Peace

Quote from: amuslim on December 11, 2011, 03:58:21 PM
Ask Muslims if Muhammad is God.  They say no.  Ask Christians if Jesus is God.  They say yes.

Equally important: Ask Muslims if Jesus is prophet.  They say yes.  Ask Christians if Muhammad is prophet.  They say no.

In Islam, kufr (disbelief)  is almost as great as a sin as shirk. Therefore monoteist christians will also go to hell. Believing in Allah is only possible by believing in ALL his prophets, books ... etc.  Plz read the ayats below:

2:91 When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"

5:68 Say, "O people of the scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.

As for sunnis, their taking hadith as a source of religion is based on their interpretition of Quran. They believe that obeying messenger is obeying his words (hadith).  But they carefully eliminate fake hadith by checking its contradiction with Quran. Although I don't agree with them, still what they are doing is not shirk. Mentioning Mohammad's name in mosques isn't shirk either, since mentioning his name is not worshipping to him.

peace

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 11, 2011, 10:43:36 PM
Equally important: Ask Muslims if Jesus is prophet.  They say yes.  Ask Christians if Muhammad is prophet.  They say no.

In Islam, kufr (disbelief)  is almost as great as a sin as shirk. Therefore monoteist christians will also go to hell. Believing in Allah is only possible by believing in ALL his prophets, books ... etc.  Plz read the ayats below:

2:91 When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"

5:68 Say, "O people of the scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.

As for sunnis, their taking hadith as a source of religion is based on their interpretition of Quran. They believe that obeying messenger is obeying his words (hadith).  But they carefully eliminate fake hadith by checking its contradiction with Quran. Although I don't agree with them, still what they are doing is not shirk. Mentioning Mohammad's name in mosques isn't shirk either, since mentioning his name is not worshipping to him.

peace

That is not completely true as Muslims believe Muhammad has divine authority. The Sunnah gave Muhammad divine authority. Authority that in the Koran is reserved to God only. This authority can then be transfered to the Musim ruler. That is one of the reasons why the Sunnah came. The Koran gave Muhamad limited authority and gave absolute authority to God only.

Plus most Christians will tell you Jesus is the son of God but would not exactly know how to explain that.

Finally Sunnis and Shias do not use the Koran to check out fake hadith. One of the goals of the Sunnah is to do away with the Koran. That is the whole point.

10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

Here the pagans asked Muhamamd to alter the Koran or to come with another Koran and Muhammad told them that he does not have such authority. So the sunnah came to finish the job that Muhamad refused to do.

Authority of the Sunnah

1. Definition of the Sunnah, and the History of the Sunnah, and the Efforts of the Scholars in verifying the Sunnah.

For the above issues, please see the following article: The Sunnah.

One thing that must be mentioned here is that many Muslims get confused between the general term of Sunnah, which includes all the sayings and actions of the Prophet, and between the term Sunnah when used in fiqh issues where it means "recommended". For example, since the Prophet used to pray 2 rak'at before fajr prayer, we say that it is Sunnah for us to pray these 2 rak'at, which means that it is recommended to pray these 2 rak'at and not obligatory.

In this article we are discussing the Sunnah in the general sense, and not in the fiqh sense. We are talking about the Sunnah as a source of Islamic legislation. Therefore, when we say it is obligatory to follow the Sunnah, we are talking about the Prophets commands for us in the Sunnah and not about the recommended actions such as the 2 rak'at before fajr for example. Please make sure that you understand the difference here.

2. What does the Authority of the Sunnah mean?

In Arabic, the wording is Hojjiyat As-Sunnah. This basically means that the Sunnah can be used as evidence in Shariah, and that Allah (swt) has ordered us to follow the Sunnah and avoid anything it has prohibited for us. In other words, this means that it is obligatory on every Muslim to believe in what the Sunnah tells us, and to act according to the Sunnah in all aspects of our life and ensure that we do not commit any actions that contradict the Sunnah.


3. The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an:

The Sunnah can be divided into three parts:

Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.

Explanatory Sunnah. This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts: expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.

Sunnah that brings new legislation. This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.

http://www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php

Of course there is another criteria that they don't mention is the Sunnah can abrogate the Koranic verses. Apostasy law (Ridda) is a very good example of that.

Quote from: Bigmo on December 12, 2011, 02:11:26 AM
That is not completely true as Muslims believe Muhammad has divine authority. The Sunnah gave Muhammad divine authority. Authority that in the Koran is reserved to God only. This authority can then be transfered to the Musim ruler. That is one of the reasons why the Sunnah came. The Koran gave Muhamad limited authority and gave absolute authority to God only.

Indeed ..
That's why the dogma of 'Ulema and/or Caliph as the successor/heirs of prophet-hood'  which allegedly Muhammad said so in the hadith.. get a constant airtime during sermons...

God -> authority transfer to -> Muhammad -> authority transfer to -> Ulema or Ruler

It's all about 'power to control the masses' and turn them into 'obedient servant' to serve their (often political) agenda...

That's why they will get instantly 'pissed off' when somebody tried to challenge the authority of the Sunna and/or Hadiths as it will disrupt the 'status quo'.. (Political Motivation)

QuoteFinally Sunnis and Shias do not use the Koran to check out fake hadith. One of the goals of the Sunnah is to do away with the Koran. That is the whole point.

Agree.. and gain an absolute power + authority to influence the masses..

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Jafar on December 12, 2011, 05:02:22 AM
Indeed ..
That's why the dogma of 'Ulema and/or Caliph as the successor/heirs of prophet-hood'  which allegedly Muhammad said so in the hadith.. get a constant airtime during sermons...

God -> authority transfer to -> Muhammad -> authority transfer to -> Ulema or Ruler

It's all about 'power to control the masses' and turn them into 'obedient servant' to serve their (often political) agenda...

That's why they will get instantly 'pissed off' when somebody tried to challenge the authority of the Sunna and/or Hadiths as it will disrupt the 'status quo'.. (Political Motivation)

Agree.. and gain an absolute power + authority to influence the masses..

Salam / Peace

I agree. The story about Abu Bakr going to war because of Zakat is a proof of that. Zakat is a religious obligation for the believers.  Who gave Abu Bakr this kind of authority. If you read the Koran it tells us:

Here you are, called upon to spend in the Path of Allah, and some of you are being stingy, while whoever is stingy is only ungenerous towards himself. It is Allah who is rich and you who are the poor.? [Quran 47:38]

Here the Koran is saying the oppossite. So how can Abu Bakr force people to pay Zakat?

So now the ruler can impose Zakat and take it for himself and his cronies as they tried to do in Sudan. Notice also in that story of Abu Bakr, the other companions disagreed with him. But for the wrong reasons. In all, these stroies gives the ruler absolute authority where he can impose Zakat or not. Where he can conquer nations and impose Jizya or not. Where he has life and death powers like the Pharoah.

Jizya is another example. While the Kortan talked about Jizya when the believers were returning to Mecca which they were forced out of. In the Sunnah Jizya is to be paid by all non Muslims. Why should people be required to pay Jizya for? Jizya in the Koran came upon the enterance of mecca. Jizya could easily be compensation for the loss of property and businesses suffered by the believers when they were forced into exile as verse 9.13 tells us.

However lets remember that we are talking about some aspects of the Sunnah. The Sunnah comprises various factions each with their own agenda. Even Koranist got into the game and spread hadiths that encourages the recitation and following of  the Koran. Hadiths that tells us Muhamamd said do not write anything from me except the Koran is one such example.

All and all, the Sects gave Muhamamd divine authority that is reserved in the Koran for God. Such as believing or disbelieving and punishing of sins and transgression against God. The Koran reserved that for God and the day of Judgement. Only when you transgress against another person's right did the Koran gave humans authority to hold other humans account.

1. manslaughter
2. Premediated murder
3.stealing
4.slandering
5.adultery

These are the 5 areas the Koran gave Muhamad authority to intervene. All of them affect another person's right. Either property, life or reputation or spouse.

The Sunnah is very different in that regard.

Peace Bigmo, all,

Quote from: Bigmo on December 12, 2011, 02:11:26 AM
Plus most Christians will tell you Jesus is the son of God but would not exactly know how to explain that.

I gave the Qur'anic verse which tells you exactly what happens to people that worship disbelieve and worship Jesus as God.  How can we dance around the verse and start thinking of ways out of what God says?  What God says is clear, what further explanation is needed?

The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close) is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians.  Lets focus on Christians.  If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.

Peace

Quote from: amuslim on December 12, 2011, 11:53:29 AM
The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close)

You're 'right' about that one.. is not even close.. what Muslim (read: sunnis/shiites/or other Mohammedans group) did it's actually much worse!!..

Quote
is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians.  Lets focus on Christians.  If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.

It's relevant, if we're to judge about 'not to pray' for those who have a 'wrong belief/view about God'... we have to apply the same standard to any other groups, regardless the name...

And islam is not a religion or sect or group or social identity.. islam is an 'attitude/character'.. it fell within the same domain as 'honest', 'kind', 'forgiving', 'humble' etc..

Salam / Peace

Peace Jafar,

Quote from: Jafar on December 12, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
You're 'right' about that one.. is not even close.. what Muslim (read: sunnis/shiites/or other Mohammedans group) did it's actually much worse!!..

I guess we have to agree to disagree, and only God knows best.

Quote
It's relevant, if we're to judge about 'not to pray' for those who have a 'wrong belief/view about God'... we have to apply the same standard to any other groups, regardless the name...

And islam is not a religion or sect or group or social identity.. islam is an 'attitude/character'.. it fell within the same domain as 'honest', 'kind', 'forgiving', 'humble' etc..

Salam / Peace

I gave scriptural reference to Christians of what God says.  You haven't addressed the answer that God gives, which is why I said lets stay on topic.  God goes at length talking about how displeased he is with people that say Jesus is Allah.  He specifically targets those people.  Are you saying that God is wrong when he talks about these polytheists?

Peace

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 11, 2011, 10:43:36 PM
In Islam, kufr (disbelief)  is almost as great as a sin as shirk. Therefore monoteist christians will also go to hell. Believing in Allah is only possible by believing in ALL his prophets, books ... etc.  Plz read the ayats below:

Yes indeed the Paradise is reserved only for you. Everyone else would go the Hell.  :rotfl:

Stop playing God. And stop misusing the Quran in your anti-christian mission.

Quote from: amuslim on December 12, 2011, 11:53:29 AM
Peace Bigmo, all,

I gave the Qur'anic verse which tells you exactly what happens to people that worship disbelieve and worship Jesus as God.  How can we dance around the verse and start thinking of ways out of what God says?  What God says is clear, what further explanation is needed?

The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close) is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians.  Lets focus on Christians.  If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.

Peace

The verse only tells us to stop saying Jesus is divine. It does not say whether sunnah is better than that.

I dont make any difference between Sectarian muslims and Christians who believe Jesus is divine. The both share the same though, they just use different words.

There are hundreds of hadith making Muhammad God, although the word God is not used because Quran clearly says that is forbidden. So what muslims do is that they exploit the 'loopholes'. They say Muhammad is NOOR-ALLAH, That he was the first thing ever created, That he is the only one who can change Gods mind, that God gave him unlimited power and authority, that Muhammad is the best person of all creations, That Muhammad would make intercession, that it was Muhammad who decided many aspects of Islam (like prayer) etc. etc. BUT HE IS STILL NOT GOD  :o :o :o

So attribute All the qualities of God to Muhammad but just remember to not CALL him God  :o

Indeed, I would even say that the Christian who believe in trinity are somehow more righteous than the muslims, since the Christians are honest and use the right words, while the muslims are hypocrites who say one thing but believe in a compleately different thing. And Munafeqeen are worse than the Kaffirs in the quran.

The truth is, that Every person who believes in monotheism and do righteous acts would go to paradise, whether he is christian, Jew or Muslim or atheist or a secular person without any religion.

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69  

Quote from: Maha on December 13, 2011, 04:46:41 AMStop playing God.

Playing God is only the case if one dares to decide the afterlife of individuals. However the salvation criteria (rules of the game) is clear in Quran since otherwise God wouldn't hold us responsible for anything.

Quote from: Maha on December 13, 2011, 04:46:41 AMThe truth is, that Every person who believes in monotheism and do righteous acts would go to paradise, whether he is christian, Jew or Muslim or atheist or a secular person without any religion.

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69 
 

What is this? a kind of customizing the salvation criteria   :D Where does in 5:69 write anything about monoteism ? Using your way I may easily claim righteous Mekkan idolworshippers will get salvation since they also believed a single God which they called Allah/Al-Ilah (probably based on Abraham):

65:11 a messenger who recites to you GOD's revelations, clearly, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will admit him into gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. GOD will generously reward him.

To understand 5:69 read other verses. There are thousands more verses in Quran  beside 5:69, 2:62, 49:13. Anyway, you may encourage your athe/mono/polytheist christian friends to refuse Quran/Mohammad by showing them 5:69. I wish you all a happy afterlife without fear and regret.

Final words: Light-hearted bull licks the knife of the butcher. (turkish saying) :D

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 13, 2011, 11:30:33 AM
Playing God is only the case if one dares to decide the afterlife of individuals. However the salvation criteria (rules of the game) is clear in Quran since otherwise God wouldn't hold us responsible for anything.


What is this? a ii of customizing the salvation criteria   :D Where does in 5:69 write anything about monoteism ? Using your way I may easily claim righteous Mekkan idolworshippers will get salvation since they also believed a single God which they called Allah/Al-Ilah:

65:11 a messenger who recites to you GOD's revelations, clearly, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will admit him into gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. GOD will generously reward him.

To understand 5:69 read other verses. There are thousands more verses in Quran  beside 5:69, 2:62, 49:13. Anyway, you may encourage your ate/mono/polyteist christian friends to refuse Quran/Mohammad by showing them 2:62. I wish you all a happy afterlife without fear and regret.

Final words: Light-hearted bull licks the knife of the butcher. (turkish saying) :D

Your post does not make any sense. Brother, quran 5:69 tells us that Christians and jews can enter paradise.

Peace

Peace Maha,

Again, have you read what I posted at all?  I am not fluent in Arabic and do not try to appear so.  I am just a learner of the Qur'an.  With that aside, don't take offense to this, but practice what you preach.  You translate the word Muslim into English.  Although it is a rough translation, it is understandable.  Now tell me where God says the word Christian.  Also if there is this word "Christian", is he talking about all Christians, or those that conform to Islam and Tawhid?  Trinitarian Christians are neither, according to God Himself. 

What hamzamutlu says is true, it seems like you are "customizing the salvation criteria" to fit your own opinions/needs. If we go by your criteria, as hamazamutlu states, even the Meccans idolators would not have to pay for their disbelief.  The idolators in Mecca believes in Allah, but practiced similar beliefs as the trinitarian polythiest Christians of today.  And it is quite possible that their idolatoray wasn't even as bad as what the Christians do. 

Believe me, if it were up to my human emotions, I would have the same opinion as you.  However, God knows better than us, and while it doesn't hurt to question, we must accept his decision if we believe that the Qur'an is his authorship.  Please do not twist God's Words, God speaks of horrible consequences for those that did for the past scriptures.

Peace

Quote from: amuslim on December 13, 2011, 01:13:39 PM
Peace Maha,

Again, have you read what I posted at all?  I am not fluent in Arabic and do not try to appear so.  I am just a learner of the Qur'an.  With that aside, don't take offense to this, but practice what you preach.  You translate the word Muslim into English.  Although it is a rough translation, it is understandable.  Now tell me where God says the word Christian.  Also if there is this word "Christian", is he talking about all Christians, or those that conform to Islam and Tawhid?  Trinitarian Christians are neither, according to God Himself. 

What hamzamutlu says is true, it seems like you are "customizing the salvation criteria" to fit your own opinions/needs. If we go by your criteria, as hamazamutlu states, even the Meccans idolators would not have to pay for their disbelief.  The idolators in Mecca believes in Allah, but practiced similar beliefs as the trinitarian polythiest Christians of today.  And it is quite possible that their idolatoray wasn't even as bad as what the Christians do. 

Believe me, if it were up to my human emotions, I would have the same opinion as you.  However, God knows better than us, and while it doesn't hurt to question, we must accept his decision if we believe that the Qur'an is his authorship.  Please do not twist God's Words, God speaks of horrible consequences for those that did for the past scriptures.

Peace

Dear sister. I feel that you judge too much and that you consider yourself to know what God thinks.

But look just as what you wrote

QuoteAlso if there is this word "Christian", is he talking about all Christians, or those that conform to Islam and Tawhid?   

This applies for all people, not only for christians but also for muslims. Every person, whether he is Christian or Muslim should follow monothoism in order to get salvation. Thats a basic fact. I am not trying to defend any MUSHRIK, whether he calls himself for Christian or Muslim. It just seems to me, that you try to judge ALL christians and in the same time you try to DEFEND the polytheism in Islam.

What I am trying to say is, that there are monotheist Christians AND polytheist muslims (and vice versa) and that of course monotheist Christians would enter paradise.

The word 'christian' a follower of Christ is a later invention (by name). Quran use the word Nasaara (Helpers, or can refer to Nazerath a palestinian city) of the followers of Christ. But in any case, note that vers 5:69 says'' WHOEVER believes in God and the last day.... ''  so in other words, God does not really care about your membership of any sect or religion, what is important is that you believe in god, the last day and do righteous deeds.

I dont really know anything about the people from Mekka, before the islamic crusades destroyed their country and culture. Very few accounts do we possess about them beside for the thousands of hadith sources written only for the sake of insulting the mekkans. But my best guess is, that there exsisted both muslims and kaafirs among the mekkans like in any other place.

Quote from: Maha on December 13, 2011, 05:07:06 PM'' WHOEVER believes in God and the last day.... ''

I think the problem lies in understanding the phrase above which is used for believers, not for faithful people who follow their ancestors' religion. And believers are those who believe in the whole book ( i.e. muslims ). 58:22 may be a proper verse to better understand the above phrase:

58:22 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.

It can be easily seen that people who believe in GOD and the Last Day are very faithful to Mohammad. Following verses and hundreds more support this point:

5:65 If the people of the scripture only would have believed and been righteous, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.

5:66 If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.

Consequently, the salvation criteria are: be a believer (believe in the book) and be righteous (follow the book). The criteria are the same for everybody, i.e. do not change for non-muslims.

To better understand 2:62 plz read it together with 3:199:

2:62 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

3:199 Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

2:62 İnnellezıne amenu vellezıne hadu ven nesara ves sabiıne min amene billahi vel yevmil ahıri ve amile salihan fe leh?m ecruh?m ınde rabbihim ve la havf?n aleyhim ve la h?m yahzenun

3:199 Ve inne min ehlil kitabi le mey y?'min? billahi ve ma ?nzile ileyk?m ve ma ?nzile ileyhim haşiıyne lillahi la yeşterune bi ayatillahi semenen kalıla ?laike leh?m ecruh?m ınde rabbihim innellahe serıul hısab

peace

Peace Maha

Quote from: Maha on December 13, 2011, 05:07:06 PM
Dear sister. I feel that you judge too much and that you consider yourself to know what God thinks.

I am not a sister :P

Quote
But look just as what you wrote
This applies for all people, not only for christians but also for muslims. Every person, whether he is Christian or Muslim should follow monothoism in order to get salvation. Thats a basic fact. I am not trying to defend any MUSHRIK, whether he calls himself for Christian or Muslim. It just seems to me, that you try to judge ALL christians and in the same time you try to DEFEND the polytheism in Islam.

What I am trying to say is, that there are monotheist Christians AND polytheist muslims (and vice versa) and that of course monotheist Christians would enter paradise.

The word 'christian' a follower of Christ is a later invention (by name). Quran use the word Nasaara (Helpers, or can refer to Nazerath a palestinian city) of the followers of Christ. But in any case, note that vers 5:69 says'' WHOEVER believes in God and the last day.... ''  so in other words, God does not really care about your membership of any sect or religion, what is important is that you believe in god, the last day and do righteous deeds.

I dont really know anything about the people from Mekka, before the islamic crusades destroyed their country and culture. Very few accounts do we possess about them beside for the thousands of hadith sources written only for the sake of insulting the mekkans. But my best guess is, that there exsisted both muslims and kaafirs among the mekkans like in any other place.

Again, either you did not understand what I wrote or you didn't bother to read what I said.  I said "Trinitarian polytheist Christians".  Not all Christians, just those that commit shirk.  When I say that there are Christians that will be punished severely, I am talking about polytheist ones and only them.  I made it clear when I said, "Those that worship Christ as God."  Whethere there are polytheist Muslims is besides the point.  I gave you Quranic evidence, I am not saying what I am saying based on my own accord.  Now, whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, that is what God says.  Not me. Not a man-made aHadith.  But God's Hadith.   

Peace

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 13, 2011, 08:24:48 PM
I think the problem lies in understanding the phrase above which is used for believers, not for faithful people who follow their ancestors' religion. And believers are those who believe in the whole book ( i.e. muslims ). 58:22 may be a proper verse to better understand the above phrase:

58:22 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.

It can be easily seen that people who believe in GOD and the Last Day are very faithful to Mohammad. Following verses and hundreds more support this point:

5:65 If the people of the scripture only would have believed and been righteous, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.

5:66 If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.

Consequently, the salvation criteria are: be a believer (believe in the book) and be righteous (follow the book). The criteria are the same for everybody, i.e. do not change for non-muslims.

No that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You are forgetting the thousands to people who never had any access to any book. How can God judge people by a book to which they had absolutely no access too or have no knowledge of???

Monotheism is the fundamental teaching in ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES. It is this teaching that is base for all salvation not any scripture.

7:172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves: "Am I not your Lord?"  They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this."


Basically every person whether they be an Atheist,  Jew , Christian, Hindu (from ANY religion or sect) has the knowledge of an Almighty God. For example who do you think a person will call on when he or she is in life and death situation....

31:31 Have you not seen the ships sailing the sea, carrying God's provisions, to show you some of His signs? In that are signs for every one who is patient, thankful.

31:32 When waves surround them like mountains, they call on God, sincerely devoting the system to Him. But when He saves them to the shore, some of them revert. None discard Our signs except those who are betrayers, ingrates.

Everyone believes in God and everyone has knowledge of him. The scripture is only meant for those who have knowledge of them or who have access to them. Those who don't will be expected to follow the basics....

The basics....

1) We worship God and God alone
2) That we do no associate beings with him
3) That we do righteous deeds

It is by these basics that people who had no scripture or any book will be judge by.

Ask yourself this question. When Abraham was guided did he have any scripture??? Read Sura 6:74- 79 . Or did he use logic and reasoning and sincerely seek God and God guided him?That is how guidance works. Sincerity is the key to guidance and Abraham had it in spades. And because he was sincere God guided to the Straight Path. What is the Straight Path????

6:161 Say, "My Lord has guided me to a Straight Path. An upright system, the creed of Abraham the monotheist; he was not from those who set up partners."

3:51 "God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him, this is a Straight Path."

36:60 "Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy?"
36:61 "That you should serve Me? That is a straight path."



Prays, rituals and following of scripture is only binding upon those who have access to scripture.  However these things are not the basics of salvation. The basics of salvation is that we worship/serve/give thanks to God and GOD ALONE and that we do not associate beings with him. That is the sum of all of the scriptures. It is a message and teaching that ANYONE can easily be guided to since EVERYONE has the knowledge of an Almighty God. Abraham was able to do it. And he  did it  during a time when people use to believe that the world was flat and that the mountains used to support the sky. In this day in age of Science what excuse does any man have for not being aware of God?


Some people may ask what is to stop a person from not reading the Quran to do those 'other things(like rituals and regulations etc)' in the first place? The answer to that question is simple. A true monotheist will never do that.   It binding upon a  servant of God to follow the scripture when he has the means to it. Or else how can he call himself a servant of God if he rejects what God has sent???

However like I said before it the basics of Monotheism which is the Straight path and the doorway to salvation. It is not the scripture.

7:172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves: "Am I not your Lord?"  They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this."



Peace,

Kevin

Quote from: amuslim on December 13, 2011, 08:46:07 PM
Peace Maha

I am not a sister :P

Again, either you did not understand what I wrote or you didn't bother to read what I said.  I said "Trinitarian polytheist Christians".  Not all Christians, just those that commit shirk.  When I say that there are Christians that will be punished severely, I am talking about polytheist ones and only them.  I made it clear when I said, "Those that worship Christ as God."  Whethere there are polytheist Muslims is besides the point.  I gave you Quranic evidence, I am not saying what I am saying based on my own accord.  Now, whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, that is what God says.  Not me. Not a man-made aHadith.  But God's Hadith.   

Peace

Ok than brother We basically agree and were talking about the same thing. Yes christians who strongly believe and uphold the trinity are committing shirk just as muslims who strongly believe and uphold their wicked hadith are committing shirk. thats very obvious from the quranic verses you showed. But ofcourse i would not judge individually except in extreme cases like hitler, bush, bashar assad etc.

Peace

Quote from: amuslim on December 12, 2011, 11:53:29 AM
Peace Bigmo, all,

I gave the Qur'anic verse which tells you exactly what happens to people that worship disbelieve and worship Jesus as God.  How can we dance around the verse and start thinking of ways out of what God says?  What God says is clear, what further explanation is needed?

The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close) is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians.  Lets focus on Christians.  If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.

Peace

Right, as I said there are Christians who will say Jesus is god, but this is not the doctrine of mainstream Christianity.

What they said was the Jesus is fully god and fully human at the same time. But I am not sure if most Christians understand all this as Christianity is still seen as a monotheist faith.

But you are right that if a person believes that Jesus or whomever is god then he is not a believer in god and is considered a kaffir.

Nobody has been able to explain the trinity.

Quote from: KDC501 on December 13, 2011, 10:13:01 PM
No that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You are forgetting the thousands to people who never had any access to any book. How can God judge people by a book to which they had absolutely no access too or have no knowledge of???

sorry for not having given additional explanation but I thought every one with average IQ could think, that the salvation criteria which are nothing but believing and following a book is only valid for those who have access to this book. :D (and what the book is, depends on the time you live)

for the salvation of those who have no access, Quran doesn't say much as far as I know, since the info is unnecessary (since people without access don't access the info and the people with access don't need the info :D )

but my opinion is that for people without access, the quranic principle applies that Allah never hold someone responsible for things he is not capable of.

Finally only Allah can decide  who has access and who doesn't and the consequences.

but today in the information era it is only a matter of seconds to access Quran (depending on your internet connection speed :D ), so nonmuslims shouldn't hope to evade fire.

After all, our duty as muslims is to warn/threaten nonmuslims with this Quran.

Quote from: KDC501 on December 13, 2011, 10:13:01 PM
The basics....

1) We worship God and God alone
2) That we do no associate beings with him
3) That we do righteous deeds

It is by these basics that people who had no scripture or any book will be judge by.

I like this. :D At least it shows that 3 requirements in verse 2:62 aren't the minimum salvation criteria since God replaced your second "basic" requirement with another one that we do believe in afterlife. :D

peace

Quote from: Bigmo on December 14, 2011, 03:46:01 AM
What they said was the Jesus is fully god and fully human at the same time. But I am not sure if most Christians understand all this as Christianity is still seen as a monotheist faith.

Their 'exact' word is actually 'fully DIVINE and fully human' at the same time..
Xtianity (just like sunniism, shiitism and others) is the result of syncretism from many traditions/beliefs/cultures..

The word "DIVINE" was a loan word from Latin "DIVO" which also a loan word Proto-Indo-Iranian (Ancient central asia + caucasus language) DEIWO with literal meanings of "Shining"... ANother derivation of "DEIWO" are found in Sanskrit "DEVA".. with the same (literal) meanings "Shining".

In cultural context the meanings of "DEIWO" become "Shining Beings" -> "Supernatural / Coming From Heaven beings".

Within Hinduism, Krishna is another example of figure who often refered as "DEVA", much of it is due to a segment within "Gita" where it's told Krishna shows his 'true form' to Arjuna which being described as "Majesticly Shining".

Within eastern cultural traditions.. the 'universal force / power' a.k.a 'Brahman' often 'descended/manifested' as 'avatar'. These avatars are often 'descended' from 'heaven' to meddle with human affairs. Mostly their objective of 'descending' is  to restore 'dharma' (Good deeds / righteousness) upon the earth. The word 'avatar' by itself has a literal meanings of 'descent'.

A quite similar concept can be found within western cultural traditions, only the names are different, they call 'avatar' as 'angelos' (Greek for messenger) or 'Malakh' (Semitic). They believe that these 'angels' / 'malakh' are also 'made of light' (shining) and 'supernatural'.. Although within their tradition there are many legends and stories where those avatar/malakh/angel can also take form as 'human being' with flesh and blood. Similar story also appears in the Quran.

As thus the statement of X as  "Divine and human" at the same time is actually carry the notions that X is a kind of 'the universal force /power''s angel or avatar but not 'the universal power / force' itself. Although they are some kind of 'the universal force / power's manifestation.

As thus; to which concept does one map the word "God" to?.. to "Avatar"/"DEIWO"? or to the "Universal Force/Power"?
I left that to each individuals...

Just sharing that with you guys for your better understanding...

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Jafar on December 14, 2011, 01:51:50 PM
Their 'exact' word is actually 'fully DIVINE and fully human' at the same time..
Xtianity (just like sunniism, shiitism and others) is the result of syncretism from many traditions/beliefs/cultures..

The word "DIVINE" was a loan word from Latin "DIVO" which also a loan word Proto-Indo-Iranian (Ancient central asia + caucasus language) DEIWO with literal meanings of "Shining"... ANother derivation of "DEIWO" are found in Sanskrit "DEVA".. with the same (literal) meanings "Shining".

In cultural context the meanings of "DEIWO" become "Shining Beings" -> "Supernatural / Coming From Heaven beings".

Within Hinduism, Krishna is another example of figure who often refered as "DEVA", much of it is due to a segment within "Gita" where it's told Krishna shows his 'true form' to Arjuna which being described as "Majesticly Shining".

Within eastern cultural traditions.. the 'universal force / power' a.k.a 'Brahman' often 'descended/manifested' as 'avatar'. These avatars are often 'descended' from 'heaven' to meddle with human affairs. Mostly their objective of 'descending' is  to restore 'dharma' (Good deeds / righteousness) upon the earth. The word 'avatar' by itself has a literal meanings of 'descent'.

A quite similar concept can be found within western cultural traditions, only the names are different, they call 'avatar' as 'angelos' (Greek for messenger) or 'Malakh' (Semitic). They believe that these 'angels' / 'malakh' are also 'made of light' (shining) and 'supernatural'.. Although within their tradition there are many legends and stories where those avatar/malakh/angel can also take form as 'human being' with flesh and blood. Similar story also appears in the Quran.

As thus the statement of X as  "Divine and human" at the same time is actually carry the notions that X is a kind of 'the universal force /power''s angel or avatar but not 'the universal power / force' itself. Although they are some kind of 'the universal force / power's manifestation.

As thus; to which concept does one map the word "God" to?.. to "Avatar"/"DEIWO"? or to the "Universal Force/Power"?
I left that to each individuals...

Just sharing that with you guys for your better understanding...

Salam / Peace

Good point you made. If you heard a lecture by Gary Miller, a Christian convert to Islam who used to be a Christian clergy, he said that he used to ask his teachers at the clergy what does it mean God has a son and what kind of son is that and yet he was never able to get an answer. It was unexplainable. Gary Miller used to conduct lectures with Ahmed Deedat.

But the Koran does talk about Jews and Christians as monotheist. And these religions claim monotheism. I think that Jesus was a test because of his unique nature. His birth was unique and he left the Earth uniquely. Just like the Koran is ahistorical so we were left with the Sunni and Shia fitna. The Koran does not talk about places and names and biographies and so the later generation had to manufacture them. I think its a fitna to see what people will do later on.

But in the end faith is an individual issue. And the Koran did talk about Jews and Christians as monotheist. But not all have faith. Therefore just like we do against Sunni and Shias, we must attcak their doctrine and not their faith as we do not know what really goes insiode the mind of a Christian since the Trinity is actually impossible.

2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Book stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in  good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3:113-115

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Book, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3:199

So here the Koran recognizes that there are Jewish believers and Christian believers. We must focus on attacking the Trinity doctrine or the teachings of the Talmud and Sunnah and not faith since we never will know who hasfaith in God and who does not. What a Christian may say about Jesus is one thing and what he actually believes is another. We can never really know because the Trinity is unexplainable.

Quote from: Bigmo on December 14, 2011, 05:36:48 PM
Good point you made. If you heard a lecture by Gary Miller, a Christian convert to Islam who used to be a Christian clergy, he said that he used to ask his teachers at the clergy what does it mean God has a son and what kind of son is that and yet he was never able to get an answer.

The terminology of "Son Of God", is a translated word from Hebrew "Ben Elohym" and it has a plural form of "Beney Elohym". Literally it does mean "Son Of God", however it's also an idiom and the actual meanings in such context is actually "God's man" (Singular) or "God's people" (plural / beney elohym).  Not all Christians aware of this (mis) translation / misconception of Hebrew idiom.

The same case happened with the terminology of "DIVINE" which I have posted earlier.. a case of misconception..

I would like to highlight the similarity between the case of Muhammad and Jesus..

Christians ulema/clerics/priest/ruler will always insist on the importance of "Jesus Divinity" because:

God --> transfer power to --> Jesus --> transfer power to --> Church

They will often (mis) quote a verse in the Gospel which said that "Peter is the 'foundation' of church" and as thus a transfer of authority from Jesus to Peter.

And they shall bicker against each others on 'whose church did Peter build first", Catholics will insist that it's the church in Rome, (and as thus they inherit the 'authority') Orthodox will insist that it's the church in Antioch (and as thus they inherit the 'authority') and the Coptics will insist that it's the church in Alexandria (and as thus they inherit the 'authority').

The same story with Muhammadans... struggle for power to control the masses..

When the dogma of "Jesus Divinity" crumbled... so does their authority/power....

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Jafar on December 15, 2011, 09:47:07 AM
The terminology of "Son Of God", is a translated word from Hebrew "Ben Elohym" and it has a plural form of "Beney Elohym". Literally it does mean "Son Of God", however it's also an idiom and the actual meanings in such context is actually "God's man" (Singular) or "God's people" (plural / beney elohym).  Not all Christians aware of this (mis) translation / misconception of Hebrew idiom.

The same case happened with the terminology of "DIVINE" which I have posted earlier.. a case of misconception..

I would like to highlight the similarity between the case of Muhammad and Jesus..

Christians ulema/clerics/priest/ruler will always insist on the importance of "Jesus Divinity" because:

God --> transfer power to --> Jesus --> transfer power to --> Church

They will often (mis) quote a verse in the Gospel which said that "Peter is the 'foundation' of church" and as thus a transfer of authority from Jesus to Peter.

And they shall bicker against each others on 'whose church did Peter build first", Catholics will insist that it's the church in Rome, (and as thus they inherit the 'authority') Orthodox will insist that it's the church in Antioch (and as thus they inherit the 'authority') and the Coptics will insist that it's the church in Alexandria (and as thus they inherit the 'authority').

The same story with Muhammadans... struggle for power to control the masses..

When the dogma of "Jesus Divinity" crumbled... so does their authority/power....

Salam / Peace

Could be. But about Christianity it seems to me that the Romans did not struggle with authority the way the Abbasids did. After all without Muhammad what was Mecca? The Roman empire was there long before Christianity. But the Abbasids were only there because of their geneology with Muhammad. The collapse of the Ummayids, also Meccan, and the riots that toook place during Al Mutawakkil's reign in the early years of the Abbasids must have made them realize that with limited authority and historic status they could not rely on geneology alone. It was during the Mutawakkil's reign that the concept of the Sunnah emerged and became the state religion. I am not very acquainted with the Church histroy so I may not know. Joseph Schacht wrote an interesting piece about how the Muhammedan Sunnah came to be.

The need of creating some kind of theoretical justification for what so far had been an instinctive reliance on the opinions of the majority, led, from the first decades of the second/eighth century onwards, to the living tradition being retrojected, and to its being ascribed to some of the great hgures of the past. This process, too, began in Kufa, where the stage of doctrine achieved in the time of Hammad b. Abi Sulayman (d. I20/738) was attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i (d. 95-6/7I3-I5). The Medinese followed suit and retrojected their own teaching to a number of ancient authorities who had died about the turn of the century, some of whom later became known as the 'seven jurists of Medina'. At the same time as the doctrine of the school of Kufa was retrospectively attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i, a similar body of doctrine was directly connected with the very beginnings of Islam in Kufa by being attributed to Ibn Mas'ud, a Companion of the Prophet who had come to live in that city, and Ibrahim al-Nakha'i became the main transmitter of that body of doctrine, too. In the same way, other Companions of the Prophet became the eponyms of the schools of Medina and of Mecca. One further step in the search for a solid theoretical foundation of the doctrine of the ancient schools was taken in 'Iraq, very early in the second/eighth century, when the term ' Sunna of the Prophet ' was transferred from its political and theological into a legal context, and identified with the sunna, the ideal practice of the local community and the corresponding doctrine of its scholars. This term, which was taken over by the school of Syria, expressed the axiom that the practice of the Muslims derived from the practice of the Prophet, but it did not as yet imply the existence of positive information in the form of ' Traditions ' (Hadith), that the Prophet by his words or acts had in fact originated or approved any particular practice. It was not long before these Traditions, too, came into existence, and the persons who put them into circulation were the Traditionists.

The ancient schools of law themselves represented, in one aspect, an Islamic opposition to popular and administrative practice under the later Umayyads, and the opposition group which developed into the Traditionist movement emphasized this tendency. As long as a Companion of the Prophet had been the final authority for the doctrine of a school on a particular point, it was sufficient for a divergent doctrine to be put under the aegis of another Companion of equal or even higher authority, as happened in Kufa where all kinds of minority opinions were attributed to the Caliph 'Ali, who had made Kufa his capital. But after the general authority of the Prophet himself had been invoked by identifying the established doctrine with his sunna, a more specific reference to him was needed, and there appeared detailed statements or 'Traditions' which claimed to be the reports of ear- or eye-witnesses on the words or acts of the Prophet, handed down orally by an uninterrupted chain of trustworthy persons. Very soon the emphasis shifted from proposing certain opinions in opposition to the ancient schools to disseminating Traditions from the Prophet as such, and the movement of the Traditionists, which was to develop into a separate branch of Islamic religious learning, came into being. It was the main thesis of the Traditionists that formal Traditions from the Prophet superseded the living tradition of the school. The Traditionists existed in all great centres of Islam, where they formed groups in opposition to, but nevertheless in contact with, the local schools of law. Initially the ancient schools offered strong resistance to the disturbing element represented by the Traditions, but they had no real defence against their rising tide; they had to express their own doctrines in Traditions which allegedly went back to the Prophet, and to take increasing notice of the Traditions produced by their opponents. Finally the outlines and many details of Islamic law were cast into the form of Traditions from the Prophet. In this way, one of the greatest and most successful literary fictions came into being.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/schacht.asp

Authority moved backwards as the Meccan dynasties shielded themselves more and more with Muhammad and his companions because that is all Mecca really had. Their geneology status kept them in the game but could not keep them there long so they had to create a theocracy that can give them more authority. The person who would end up giving them that is Muhammad himself. So Muhammad'e enemies, the Meccans, ended up being his biggest beneficiaries. How odd.

Quote from: Bigmo on December 15, 2011, 07:18:28 PM
Could be. But about Christianity it seems to me that the Romans did not struggle with authority the way the Abbasids did.

Well they did...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Wars_of_the_Tetrarchy_%28306-324_AD%29

Religion is a perfect tool for ruler to secure his authority and control the mind of the people..

"In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun. Constantine himself disliked the risks to societal stability that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring where possible to establish an orthodoxy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

And since he control the church (he can appoint a pope who shall be the head of the church), the power layout of God->Jesus->Church give him the comfort of projecting an 'illusion' to the mind of the people that he got his authority from "Heaven". If the 'pope' dare to go against his will well he can easily replace the pope with somebody else..

The layout of:
God->Jesus->Many Churches
Is too much of a headache for him... that's why he feel the need to 'unite' the churches (with force if possible) into one easily controllable church (Catholic Church) where Catholic = Universal.

This mark the 'importance' of 'conversion', conversion into state universal religion shall establish control of the ruler over the people. In return converted people shall earn extra benefits of being regarded as the 'state citizen'. That's why converted out from the state religion is considered as an act of 'hideous crime' and punishable by death.

Compare the Roman layout with the current layout in Saudi's Kingdom.. it''s practically the same..

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Jafar on December 16, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
Well they did...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Wars_of_the_Tetrarchy_%28306-324_AD%29

Religion is a perfect tool for ruler to secure his authority and control the mind of the people..

"In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun. Constantine himself disliked the risks to societal stability that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring where possible to establish an orthodoxy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

And since he control the church (he can appoint a pope who shall be the head of the church), the power layout of God->Jesus->Church give him the comfort of projecting an 'illusion' to the mind of the people that he got his authority from "Heaven". If the 'pope' dare to go against his will well he can easily replace the pope with somebody else..

The layout of:
God->Jesus->Many Churches
Is too much of a headache for him... that's why he feel the need to 'unite' the churches (with force if possible) into one easily controllable church (Catholic Church) where Catholic = Universal.

This mark the 'importance' of 'conversion', conversion into state universal religion shall establish control of the ruler over the people. In return converted people shall earn extra benefits of being regarded as the 'state citizen'. That's why converted out from the state religion is considered as an act of 'hideous crime' and punishable by death.

Compare the Roman layout with the current layout in Saudi's Kingdom.. it''s practically the same..

Salam / Peace

I think what you are talking about is a theocracy. I was talking about how authority was formulated. That Chrisianity was seen by the Romans of a way to unite the roman Empire and keep it stable is something I agree with after all all theocracies are for that reason. Like the Pharoah and ancient Egypt and Babylon and Greece. However I was talking about how that authority came to be. The Ummayids and Abbasids were already Islamic but could not attain authority so the Sunnah came to the rescue. So the Sunnah was added for authority. The Romans had authority but were not Christian and became Christian. This is why there is no concept like the Sunnah in Christianity but we find that in Islam and Judaism. Both these religions traced their added traditions to some prophetic figure for it to enjoy authority. Something the Romans did not have to do. The celebration of Christmas is a good example of that, it is not scriptural however Christians celebrate Christmas and even at different times like the Ethiopian Church and Eastern Orthodox Church. However you will never be able to establish something like that in Islam without some religious evidence.

Quote from: Bigmo on December 14, 2011, 05:36:48 PM
Good point you made. If you heard a lecture by Gary Miller, a Christian convert to Islam who used to be a Christian clergy, he said that he used to ask his teachers at the clergy what does it mean God has a son and what kind of son is that and yet he was never able to get an answer. It was unexplainable. Gary Miller used to conduct lectures with Ahmed Deedat.

But the Koran does talk about Jews and Christians as monotheist. And these religions claim monotheism. I think that Jesus was a test because of his unique nature. His birth was unique and he left the Earth uniquely. Just like the Koran is ahistorical so we were left with the Sunni and Shia fitna. The Koran does not talk about places and names and biographies and so the later generation had to manufacture them. I think its a fitna to see what people will do later on.

But in the end faith is an individual issue. And the Koran did talk about Jews and Christians as monotheist. But not all have faith. Therefore just like we do against Sunni and Shias, we must attcak their doctrine and not their faith as we do not know what really goes insiode the mind of a Christian since the Trinity is actually impossible.

2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Book stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in  good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3:113-115

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Book, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3:199

So here the Koran recognizes that there are Jewish believers and Christian believers. We must focus on attacking the Trinity doctrine or the teachings of the Talmud and Sunnah and not faith since we never will know who hasfaith in God and who does not. What a Christian may say about Jesus is one thing and what he actually believes is another. We can never really know because the Trinity is unexplainable.

Just as a side note: Sunnies and shiites are among 'people of the book' .

Peace

Quote from: Bigmo on December 17, 2011, 09:55:54 AM
The celebration of Christmas is a good example of that, it is not scriptural however Christians celebrate Christmas and even at different times like the Ethiopian Church and Eastern Orthodox Church. However you will never be able to establish something like that in Islam without some religious evidence.

How about the "Mawlid"??
There's no Mawlid on Hadith/Sunna is it?
It was justified by "Ijma Ulema" as commanded by their Emir/Sultan...
Similarly with Christmas.. justified through "Pope Edict".. as commanded by Constantine..

And I agree.. Eid-Al-Adha, The Tawaf and Kissing the black stone.. got it's 'authority' from Hadith/Sunna..
They need to create the hadith/sunna to justify those... apparently they didn't stop there..

Quote from: Maha on December 17, 2011, 10:05:32 AM
Just as a side note: Sunnies and shiites are among 'people of the book' .

Good point..

Salam / Peace

Quote from: Maha on December 17, 2011, 10:05:32 AM
Just as a side note: Sunnies and shiites are among 'people of the book' .

Peace

The people of the Book in the Koran are the Jews.

Quote from: Jafar on December 17, 2011, 10:30:23 AM
How about the "Mawlid"??
There's no Mawlid on Hadith/Sunna is it?
It was justified by "Ijma Ulema" as commanded by their Emir/Sultan...
Similarly with Christmas.. justified through "Pope Edict".. as commanded by Constantine..

And I agree.. Eid-Al-Adha, The Tawaf and Kissing the black stone.. got it's 'authority' from Hadith/Sunna..
They need to create the hadith/sunna to justify those... apparently they didn't stop there..

Good point..

Salam / Peace

Good point about the Mawlid but isn't that the reason why the Salafis reject it? They say it is not the Sunnah. Yes Sufism did diverge but they were able to do so because the Sufi sheikhs enjoyed authority. Sufism is a very unique aspect of Islam but the reason I think they are slowly dying now is precisely that their enemies label them as not being the followers of the Sunnah.

But good point and now I see why some have said Sufism is very similar to Christianity.

Quote from: Bigmo on December 18, 2011, 12:31:51 AM
The people of the Book in the Koran are the Jews.

How do you know that? Can you come with some evidences that they are jew?

Sure you can it's not forbidden in Quran..

Quote from: Bigmo on December 18, 2011, 12:31:51 AM
The people of the Book in the Koran are the Jews.

No. plz read:

4:171 O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Quote from: maha on December 18, 2011, 12:31:51 AM
Sunnies and shiites are among 'people of the book.

No. They are believers. According to Quran, believers are the people who accept what was sent to Mohammad. Sunnies and shiites accept Quran as divine scripture. But they don't follow it properly ,that's why Mohammad's only complaint about his people will  not be that they rejected anything or associated partners to Allah but just:

25:30 The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."


People of the book are those who already had scripture before revelation of Quran. They are practically christians and jews (and may be some more). Someone  among the people of the book, after being introduced with Quran's message becomes a "believer or rejecter of the people of the book" depending whether he accepts or rejects the message.

3:199 Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

peace

Quote from: silverquin on December 18, 2011, 08:30:47 AM
Sure you can it's not forbidden in Quran..

Good answer...  :bravo:

It's a sectarian spirit for 'not to pray' / 'not to help' / 'not to bless' those who are 'THEM' and 'NOT US'...

Quote from: Jafar on December 18, 2011, 10:12:10 AM
Good answer...  :bravo:

It's a sectarian spirit for 'not to pray' / 'not to help' / 'not to bless' those who are 'THEM' and 'NOT US'...

yes , and it's also a sectarian spirit to call those who maintain salat and give zaakat "Mohammadans" and "mushreeks" while calling themselves "monoteists" instead muslims  and befriending those who reject Quran.

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 18, 2011, 10:08:54 AM
No. plz read:

4:171 O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

No. They are believers. According to Quran, believers are the people who accept what was sent to Mohammad. Sunnies and shiites accept Quran as divine scripture. But they don't follow it properly ,that's why Mohammad's only complaint about his people will  not be that they rejected anything or associated partners to Allah but just:

25:30 The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."


People of the book are those who already had scripture before revelation of Quran. They are practically christians and jews (and may be some more). Someone  among the people of the book, after being introduced with Quran's message becomes a "believer or rejecter of the people of the book" depending whether he accepts or rejects the message.

3:199 Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

peace

People of the book are the Jews and not Christians. The Rabbis to this day will tell you they rejected Jesus because he claimed to be god. However the real reason why they rejected him is the same reason Sunnis and Shias reject us.

4.153.173 The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.  And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.  (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-  That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;  That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;- That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.  But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in Allah and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- Messenger. who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. But Allah beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is Allah for a witness. Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of Allah, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path. Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way- Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allah is easy. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.

As can be seen it is talking about the Jews and not Christians. Christians are refered to as "nasara" in the Koran. I am not sure about the Trinity part. So it could be refering to Christians as well however looking at the context it seems to be talking about Jews.

In general the people of the book can either be the Jews or the Christians or both depending on the context of the verses in the Quran.


For example? Sura 4:152 obviously is talking about the Jews alone.

4:153 The people of the book ask you to bring down to them a book from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said, "Let us see God plainly!", so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the proof had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.

Whilst sura 4:171 is talking about the Christians?

4:171 O people of the book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and an inspiration from Him. So acknowledge God and His messengers, and do not say, "Trinity." Cease, for it is better for you.(Christians are the ones who use the term "trinity" Not the Jews.) God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the earth. God is enough as a caretaker.

The verse above is saying that whoever the people of the book are they are saying ?trinity? . God says : ?Cease, for it is better for you.?. Which group of people uses the word trinity??? Isn't it the Christians?


In sura 3:199 this verse is referring to both the Jews and Christians since both are recipients of the pervious scripture (The Torah and the Injeel)


3:199 Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.


Basically anyone who are students any of the scriptures (the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran) are more or less people of the book so in fact sunnies and shites are people of the book as well. HOWEVER the term ?people of the book? as used in the Quran generally specifies only two groups , the Jews and the Christians because of the CONTEXT of the verses.


Peace,

Kevin

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 18, 2011, 10:33:41 AM
yes , and it's also a sectarian spirit to call those who maintain salat and give zaakat "Mohammadans" and "mushreeks" while calling themselves "monoteists" instead muslims  and befriending those who reject Quran.

Islam in all its manifestations absolutely rejects the Quran. Have you ever studied their doctors and theologians? What they teach necessarily implies a rejection of the Quran, it doesn't matter what they otherwise claim. In fact the Jewish Rabbi who rejects the Quran openly, probably without knowing anything about it, is more honest, in that he does not claim that the Quran supports his false religion. According to your reasoning, as long as a roman catholic says he believes in the Quran, then nothing he teaches or does can put him outside of revealed truth. The post Quranic religion called Islam is shirk because it rejects the word of God as its final authority, and therefore gives the glory, that belongs to God alone, to their demons, which they camouflage as traditions.

As far as salah and zakaah go, well you simply beg the question. Why is their religious practice definitional? Ironically their doctors teach that you CANNOT do salah and zaakah without their satanic traditions, as the word of God is wholly impotent to provide the "necessary details". Yet here you are defending the teachings of these people, as if they were of God! In their satanic religion you are NOT a "muslim" precisely because you faithfully accept the word of God as sufficient, and yet you cite their "salah" and their "zaakah" as proof of their orthodoxy!

@Hamzamutlu:

1. When someone rejecting Quran it's his/her own business with Allah, not ours :D Unless that person harm us, now thats become our 'business'. When that person dont harm us do we have to hate them? Read these, only a few examples written in Quran :
-Wealth and buildings are the beauty of this life. But the good deeds that remain behind are better with your Lord for a reward, and better for hope. (18:46)
-Kind words and forgiveness is far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate. (2:263)
2. Who said that ? Salat and Zakat are mentioned in Quran as part of our duties as Muslims.
3. Muslim should abide only God.. not some imam/fellow person.. Even Rasulullah was sent by Allah only to deliver Allah's message.. not to create his own law. Because a Muslim is a Monoteist,
- Say, I warn you only through the Revelation. But the deaf can hear nothing when they are warned (21:45)

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 18, 2011, 10:33:41 AM
yes , and it's also a sectarian spirit to call those who maintain salat and give zaakat "Mohammadans" and "mushreeks" while calling themselves "monoteists" instead muslims  and befriending those who reject Quran.

I don't see it as 'sectarians' to call anyone anything.... (e.g. Americans, Africans, Asians, Mohammedans, Christians, Buddhist, Wahhabis, Suffis, Sallafis, Catholics, Saudis,  Atheists, Footballers, Actors, Actress, Socialists, Nationalists, Zionists, Tourists, Capitalists.. and so on and so forth)

As long as they don't incite hatred towards those who they regards as "NOT US" but "THEM"..

Quote

Now I really feel Like praying to God so that he would guide her in life but am not sure what would Quran say to that. I know that you are not supose to pray for polytheists and Catholics do have their saint thing that they are big on.

So, yeah can we pray for Catholics and other Christians, also can we pray for atheists who have helped us in life? Pray to God to guide them to himself.

Quote

Dear Brother

You are justifiably in confusion because most of the Muslims including those who have strong conviction that "Quran" is an only source for the knowledge of Deen e Islam. obviously it is very difficult to break the shackles around our necks by the  traditions and sometime we perceive un-intentionally according to the traditions ( Islamic History, Biography of Prophet and Hadith). Therefore a misconception prevail among Muslims.

I understand that your question is actual not for Dua but for (Prayer, (you wish that the person who helped you in every manner must be rewarded by Allah Subhanna)  The word Al-Dua'a ( you called prayer) is defined as under: 

Da?a also spelled as ?Dua? meaning ?to call someone?. Therefore, ?ad- da?a? means ?the forefinger which is used as a sign to call someone?. ?ad dayiah? denotes ? the cry of the horses in a battle?. Hu?a minni dawatar rajul convey ?he is at distance where a man?s voice can reach him; he is at a calling distance. (Taj) ?Ibn- e- Faaris? said its basic meanings are: ?to incline someone towards oneself eloquently by speech or conversation?. Dayahu alal ameer, means: he took him to ameer (leader); in this context ?dayi ?is not only one who calls but also someone who persuade you to someone else (for example: to an ideology); or call someone.

iddia?oo,(yad- da-oon) means: ?to wish or desire? (Taj ul Urus); ?to call on someone, repeatedly?.(67:28) Tadau alaih, means: ?they gathered against him?. tada?a alaihal aduwu min kulli jaa?nib, means: ?the enemy  attacked him from all sides?. tadaa?atilhaitaan means: ?walls fall down one by one?.
( Taj ul Urus) Da?autuhu zaida, means: I named him Zaid: ad dayee-o means: adopted son ? (taj) plural is ad-ia-ooأَدْعِيَاء 33:4 ad daayiah means: the milk that is left behind in the teats of the animals so that the left over milk may obtain with its help, at the time of, milking the animal again; (taj) by the reason - cause.
Such things, which entice and excite emotions of human called, ad dawa-ee (Muheet) (these meanings should be kept in mind because they throw light on the meaning of the word dua ? Call? ). Wad-oo shohada?akum وَادْعُوا شُهَدَاءَكُمْ 2:23, means: ?call those who will help you?. in Surah Kahaf,  nadao and da?a have been used as synonym;
َيَوْمَ يَقُولُ نَادُوا شُرَكَائِيَ الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُمْ فَدَعَوْهُمْ فَلَمْ يَسْتَجِيبُوا لَهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا بَيْنَهُمْ مَوْبِق 18:52. In Surah Airaaf, 7.193, AAalaykum adaAAawtumoohum am antum [sa]mitoon(a) has been used as antonym; which means: to be quiet as such da?a would mean to call. In Surah Baqarra, verse # 2:61, fa(o)dAAu lan[a] rabbaka means: Call upon your ?Rubb? for us.


An excerpt from Lughat ul Quran by Mr.GA.Pervaiz

if you need further information about this,please go to: http//rmakhtar.logspot.com

Peace!



     

salam bigmo, all
plz read 4:171 more carefully:

4:171 O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of YOUR religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity."............

Whose religion is the religion told in 4:171, the limits of which are transgressed. christians' or jews' religion ?

Quote from: KDC501 on December 18, 2011, 11:04:42 AM
Basically anyone who are students any of the scriptures (the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran) are more or less people of the book so in fact sunnies and shites are people of the book as well.

So accordingly prophet Mohammad and sahaba were also people of the book. :D so are we all. If everybody is people of the book then what's the use of using the term  "people of the book" ? :D

Quote from: KDC501 on December 18, 2011, 11:04:42 AM
HOWEVER the term ?people of the book? as used in the Quran generally specifies only two groups , the Jews and the Christians because of the CONTEXT of the verses.

Why "generally" ? have you seen exceptions ? is there any single verse in which the term  "people of the book" is used for muslims ? :D

peace all

Bigmo

QuotePeople of the book are the Jews and not Christians. The Rabbis to this day will tell you they rejected Jesus because he claimed to be god. However the real reason why they rejected him is the same reason Sunnis and Shias reject   

Brother as I can see hhe quranic word for jew are simply 'hood' and when talking about jews only the quran stats 'jews'. But 'people of the book' as the word itself describes, are more than a group of people, its 'people who have a book'. The verse you just quoted regarding jews, what you forget is that it was during the time of moses when they had and still have torah hence they were/are included 'people of the book'. So the verse you just quoted, just confirms that jews are included in the people of the book and I believe muslims as well, since they really have hundreds of book which they follow

Hamzamultlu

QuoteSo accordingly prophet Mohammad and sahaba were also people of the book.  so are we all. If everybody is people of the book then what's the use of using the term  "people of the book" ?

What is all this sudden talk about muhammad and sahaba? you sound like a real sunni  :o

QuoteWhy "generally" ? have you seen exceptions ? is there any single verse in which the term  "people of the book" is used for muslims ? 

Muslims can both be from among 'the people of the book' and they can also be people who are not among 'people of the book'

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'r?f and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaq?n .(3:113-115)

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . (quran 2:62)

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 18, 2011, 11:08:09 PM

So accordingly prophet Mohammad and sahaba were also people of the book. :D so are we all. If everybody is people of the book then what's the use of using the term  "people of the book" ? :D

Why "generally" ? have you seen exceptions ? is there any single verse in which the term  "people of the book" is used for muslims ? :D

peace all

The people of the book is used to describe people who have scripture that is from God.

Hence the term ?the people of the BOOK? . Like the Torah and the Injeel, The Quran is also a BOOK!

So basically any person who studies the scripture are people of the book. This includes , sunnis, shites, Jews, Christians etc.

HOWEVER the term ?the people of the book? by context in the Quran is only used to describe the Jews and the Christians. Because they were used as EXAMPLES of people who had scripture from BEFORE.


Ok look at it this way. If the Quran wasn?t the last scripture we today would have been categorized in a new scripture with the Jews and the Christians as ?people of the book? since we study the Quran. The Quran is a book,a scripture just like the Injeel and the Torah.


Peace,

Kevin

Quote from: KDC501 on December 19, 2011, 07:07:12 AM
The people of the book is used to describe people who have scripture that is from God.

You can use the term ?the people of the book? as you wish..no problem. The matter is for which particular people the term is used by ALLAH in Quran ? And surely each of such terms in Quran must correspond to particular people since otherwise Quran's message would be ambiguous, wouldn't it ? And as you also admit,  the term ?the people of the book? by context in the Quran is only used to describe the Jews and the Christians.

Quote from: KDC501 on December 19, 2011, 07:07:12 AM
If the Quran wasn?t the last scripture we today would have been categorized in a new scripture with the Jews and the Christians as ?people of the book? since we study the Quran.

If the Quran wasn?t the last scripture then ALLAH would have choosen the terms He used in Quran accordingly.

peace

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 19, 2011, 09:48:55 AM
You can use the term ?the people of the book? as you wish..no problem. The matter is for which particular people the term is used by ALLAH in Quran ? And surely each of such terms in Quran must correspond to particular people since otherwise Quran's message would be ambiguous, wouldn't it ? And as you also admit,  the term ?the people of the book? by context in the Quran is only used to describe the Jews and the Christians.

If the Quran wasn?t the last scripture then ALLAH would have choosen the terms He used in Quran accordingly.

peace

People of the book in the quran is desribed for anyone with a book, and christians and jews had books so they are included. But you see, muslims also have a book called quran right? So they are also among people of the book. So when the prophet got these message he would be thinking about the people who had a book, mostly known as jews and christians but since Quran is timeless the 'people of the book' also means muslims today since they also have a book.

So muslims are also 'people of the book'

Quote from: Maha on December 19, 2011, 04:09:52 PM
But you see, muslims also have a book called quran right? So they are also among people of the book.

I wonder when muslims exactly became the people of the book .. I mean after completion of revelation of Quran or after having %50 of it or maybe right after the revelation of the first verse.

Quote from: Maha on December 19, 2011, 04:09:52 PM
So when the prophet got these message he would be thinking about the people who had a book, mostly known as jews and christians

Yes yes.. very probably he thought so since he was probably not as clever as you  :D

(sorry for the joke, but I couldn't find a better answer  :D)

peace

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 19, 2011, 09:48:55 AM
You can use the term ?the people of the book? as you wish..no problem. The matter is for which particular people the term is used by ALLAH in Quran ? And surely each of such terms in Quran must correspond to particular people since otherwise Quran's message would be ambiguous, wouldn't it ? And as you also admit,  the term ?the people of the book? by context in the Quran is only used to describe the Jews and the Christians.

If the Quran wasn?t the last scripture then ALLAH would have choosen the terms He used in Quran accordingly.

peace

I don't disagree with you brother that the term people of the book was used to describe the Jews and the Christians. What I do disagree with is that you say that the definition of the term means the Jews and the Christians. This is not the case.

Sura 4:153
4:153 The people of the book ask you to bring down to them a book from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said, "Let us see God plainly!", so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the proof had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.

Here we see that the people of the book was used to describe the Jews ALONE....
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In Sura 4:171
4:171 O people of the book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and an inspiration from Him. So acknowledge God and His messengers, and do not say, "Trinity." Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the earth. God is enough as a caretaker.

We see that the term is used to describe the Christians alone...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other verses  the term is unclear regarding which group in particular....but most would agree that it generally describes the Jews and the Christians.

98:6 Those who rejected from the people of the book and those who set up partners are in the fires of hell abiding therein, those are the worst of creation

3:75 Among the people of the book are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said, "We have no obligation towards the Gentiles." They say about God lies while knowing.

59:11 Have you noted those who are hypocrites, they say to their companions in denial among the people of the book: "If you are driven out we will go out with you, and we will never obey anyone who opposes you. If anyone fights you, we will support you." God bears witness that they are liars.

We see the term people of the Book. But which people is God talking about?? The Jews or the Christians??? Or both?

Basically what I'm trying to show you is that if the term meant only Jews and the Christians why would the term be used with the Jews alone and the Christians alone? Jews and Christians are not the same. It's like jelly and peanut butter. So basically the proper definition of the term is "people who posses scripture" and not "Jews and Christians"


The term "People of the Book" is SUBJECTED TO CONTEXT! That is why you see it being used differently in the Quran. Sometimes it can mean the Jews alone, sometimes the Christians,  sometimes both. The proper definition of the term means 'people who posses scripture'. Not Jews and Christians since this is a vague definition and it will depend on the context of its use in the Quran. Look at 4:153 , 4:171 and 59:11.



Peace

Quote from: KDC501 on December 19, 2011, 10:38:58 PM
I don't disagree with you brother that the term people of the book was used to describe the Jews and the Christians. What I do disagree with is that you say that the definition of the term means the Jews and the Christians. This is not the case.

Sura 4:153
4:153 The people of the book ask you to bring down to them a book from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said, "Let us see God plainly!", so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the proof had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.

Here we see that the people of the book was used to describe the Jews ALONE....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Sura 4:171
4:171 O people of the book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and an inspiration from Him. So acknowledge God and His messengers, and do not say, "Trinity." Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the earth. God is enough as a caretaker.

We see that the term is used to describe the Christians alone...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other verses  the term is unclear regarding which group in particular....but most would agree that it generally describes the Jews and the Christians.

98:6 Those who rejected from the people of the book and those who set up partners are in the fires of hell abiding therein, those are the worst of creation

3:75 Among the people of the book are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said, "We have no obligation towards the Gentiles." They say about God lies while knowing.

59:11 Have you noted those who are hypocrites, they say to their companions in denial among the people of the book: "If you are driven out we will go out with you, and we will never obey anyone who opposes you. If anyone fights you, we will support you." God bears witness that they are liars.

We see the term people of the Book. But which people is God talking about?? The Jews or the Christians??? Or both?

Basically what I'm trying to show you is that if the term meant only Jews and the Christians why would the term be used with the Jews alone and the Christians alone? Jews and Christians are not the same. It's like jelly and peanut butter. So basically the proper definition of the term is "people who posses scripture" and not "Jews and Christians"


The term "People of the Book" is SUBJECTED TO CONTEXT! That is why you see it being used differently in the Quran. Sometimes it can mean the Jews alone, sometimes the Christians,  sometimes both. The proper definition of the term means 'people who posses scripture'. Not Jews and Christians since this is a vague definition and it will depend on the context of its use in the Quran. Look at 4:153 , 4:171 and 59:11.



Peace

The beauty of the quran is that its perfectly timeless. I find in many context references to todays muslims as well in 'people of the book' just look at following verses:

72. Some followers of the scripture say, "Believe in what was sent down
to the believers in the morning, and reject it in the evening;
maybe someday they will revert .....  Say, "The true guidance is GOD's guidance." If they claim that they
have the same guidance, or argue with you about your Lord, say, "All grace is in GOD's hand; He bestows it upon whomever He wills."
GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient

Quite different from what bukhari teaches.

Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner- unless they transgress-and say,"We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters." (Surah ankaboot 46, Rashad Khalifah translation)

Here God tells us how we should talk to the sunnites and shiites...

Peace

Quote from: hamzamutlu on December 18, 2011, 11:08:09 PM
salam bigmo, all
plz read 4:171 more carefully:

4:171 O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of YOUR religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity."............

Whose religion is the religion told in 4:171, the limits of which are transgressed. christians' or jews' religion ?

So accordingly prophet Mohammad and sahaba were also people of the book. :D so are we all. If everybody is people of the book then what's the use of using the term  "people of the book" ? :D

Why "generally" ? have you seen exceptions ? is there any single verse in which the term  "people of the book" is used for muslims ? :D

peace all

I think a good thing to do is to look at all the instances in the Koran that uses "ahlul kitaab" and see what its refering to. I am busy now so somebody has to do the search.