Is the Koran all from all Allah or is some of it from Gabriel, Mohammad, Jinn and so on? For instance is it claimed that every word in the Koran is directly what Allah told Gabriel to say to Mohammad verbatim?
yes. It is all from Allah
Quote from: rraza on January 06, 2011, 09:12:58 PM
yes. It is all from Allah
Thanks. So you believe Allah told Gabriel who told Mohammad who recorded it all verbatim?
im not too sure of Gabriel being the only medium..but yes i do believe that its from God..word for word
Sometimes it says the spirit of truth descended it , sometimes the holy spirit, sometimes the mighty in power, sometimes angel gabriel , sometimes the angels , i don't know if these are the same thing, but the content is from god , because there is a lot of the unseen in the quran and there is no way mohamed could have getten these ideas just by guessing, but the wording i don't know if they are gods words or mohamed put the quran into words. but still, inspiration, when you think, you do with your own language, therefore could be the words also are god's words. I only know that the meanings are from god.
I think it is narrated by some kind of very high entity who carry themselves with eloquence and a suitable amount of grandeur but themselves are subservient to the almighty. It reads as if an envoy came across space from a foreign place to let us know.
For example, 37:165 switches POV fairly rapidly. I think the term "We" is merely a collective of entities, like the Borg collective of Star Trek :p
Peace,
You know I have been wondering that for a while too! It seems to me it is narrated by a group who refer themselves as 'We'. But then there are some parts where God speaks himself and it becomes 'I'. I find the story about Khidhr especially interesting when he talks to Moses about what he had done. Because he uses 'We' instead of himself. I dunno I guess I am rambling here. Some people say the 'I' denotes an intensive form when God is becoming personal.
Does God Exist?
An answer using The Quran and probability: http://www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf
Quote from: Wakas on January 12, 2011, 05:08:55 PM
Does God Exist?
An answer using The Quran and probability: http://www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf
Be aware that the method you used is defeated easily by the anthropic principle.
Actually, the probability for God to exist is either 1 or 0 depending on the definition of God. With a correct definition of God, it is 1, this fact is inescapable ;)
QuoteBe aware that the method you used is defeated easily by the anthropic principle.
Can you elaborate?
Quote from: Wakas on January 13, 2011, 07:02:38 PM
Can you elaborate?
I'm sure you're aware of the typical argument about creationism, people say "for life to exist, 1 in 1000000000000000 chance, for life to evolve into us, 1 in 10^1000 chance". Yet if you flip the lenses you see this through, chances of life to exist in a universe with our physics = 100%, that is to say that because we are here to observe it, the chances MUST be 100%.
Another way to look at it, what are the odds for anything to happen? For example with a dice, you may say "1 in 6" for any side. But you can also say, with a bit less rigour, that the "chance" is 1 in 2 - it either happens or it doesn't :P In this case, the 1 in 6 probability is actually irrelevant and the 1 in 2 is what matters though this is counterintuitive. It's hard to explain this thing so early in the morn, if I try explaining any further I will merely cloud your mind but a bit of reading around will work wonders ;)
Yes, but I am not referring to the probability of creation, I am referring to the probability of a human authoring such a book. To boot, in our 'closed system' called earth, within the experience of what we know. Of course, one could argue that the probability of this is actually high if we imagine in our vast universe many human-inhabited planets exist and we just happen to live in the one where the 1 in 10 thousand billion billion human did it. Fair enough.
Ahhhh the old if you can't convince them confuse them argument. And better yet confuse them with heavy maths that they probably don't know. So they feel not only confused but stupid and inferior.
***Putting on professor jacket*** (yes I have one)
As a person who does have the title "Tenured Associate Professor of Statistics" with a PhD in Statistics I do know a bit about probability. I do not claim to know everything about probability but I teach it at a university and have published many research articles in it.....
What are you talking about??? using probability to PROVE something has to be true?!?! Probability is the language of uncertainty not the language of certainty. If you are certain then from a maths perspective you are deterministic. If you are uncertain you are "stochastic" or "probabilistic". You use probability to tell people YOU ARE UNCERTAIN. Rare events happen all the time. Ever read in the newspaper or hear on the news that someone won the lottery? The odds of winning the big prize in the Powerball lottery is around 1 in 53,000,000 (which is really small). But several people win this lottery every year. Sometimes every week.
Here is my point. Don't use probability to confuse people. You can't use probability to PROVE that something is true or something is not true. You can only use it to understand how uncertain you are about that something.
My apologies to anyone. I felt the need to protect my discipline.
***Taking off my professor jacket***
Religion and faith are not about confusing other people. When you read the Quran does it seem as though it is authentic to you? If not then you are uncertain. Being uncertain is ok. Being uncertain is probably advantageous as it requires us to seek out Allah. It requires us to get to know him/her and to strive for certainty. Don't look for certainty in probabilities because you won't find it there. Look for certainty in your hearts, in a newborn's eyes, in the laughter of a friend. That is where you will find your certainty. There is where you will see Allah shine through to you. Be open to finding Allah and you will see his/her works. Once you see Allah's works you will be able to answer the question that is the title of this thread. Once you see Allah's works you will push your certainty to 1.
Just my thoughts.
Jewish Dude
:peace: Salam, Shalom, Peace :peace:
Thanks @JewishDude,
I taught Maths and IT,and my weakness is actually Probability and Statistics, that is why I usually refused to lecture it to seniors ;D
There are some distinctions you made which I directly relate to...
My certainty for the existence of God (Allah) are through the events in my life...
In fact most times I use these events as feedback for guidance, and if I am doing the right thing... (it is very surprising the "answers" I get
even for the most trivial of matters)...
An important and vital breakthrough for me was my asking the question: "if the hadith and traditions of the prophet Mohamed were what Allah expected of me
or being guided by the Quran alone, and that I be given a Sign" - one night, I had a dream of searching on google about hadith and quran,
so I did what my dream told me, and I stumbled on this site, that was in 2003...
Since then, now I am certain Allah has guided me to what I need as He wishes, not only did it increase me in Faith, but I started looking and digging deeper into the past
of the other associated faiths in the Torah and the Gospel...
Furthermore, I took the question of my origins seriously, as my genealogical trees on the arabic side bring me back to Ali and Fatima through Hassan,
and I do also have a Jewish side from the Aures on the side of a Grandmother...
So there is some fascinating research for me to do now...
I also wish to do a DNA genome collection to find out more scientifically about my origins...
Peace be with you
Nabil
Quote from: Wootah on January 06, 2011, 08:47:30 PM
Is the Koran all from all Allah or is some of it from Gabriel, Mohammad, Jinn and so on? For instance is it claimed that every word in the Koran is directly what Allah told Gabriel to say to Mohammad verbatim?
[/quote
Gabriel is the medium of transmission of the communication between allah and his messengers. he is holy because he's not like cellphones , but another technology, allah's technology]
Quote from: JewishDude on February 16, 2011, 01:34:43 PM
Ahhhh the old if you can't convince them confuse them argument. And better yet confuse them with heavy maths that they probably don't know. So they feel not only confused but stupid and inferior.
***Putting on professor jacket*** (yes I have one)
As a person who does have the title "Tenured Associate Professor of Statistics" with a PhD in Statistics I do know a bit about probability. I do not claim to know everything about probability but I teach it at a university and have published many research articles in it.....
What are you talking about??? using probability to PROVE something has to be true?!?! Probability is the language of uncertainty not the language of certainty. If you are certain then from a maths perspective you are deterministic. If you are uncertain you are "stochastic" or "probabilistic". You use probability to tell people YOU ARE UNCERTAIN. Rare events happen all the time. Ever read in the newspaper or hear on the news that someone won the lottery? The odds of winning the big prize in the Powerball lottery is around 1 in 53,000,000 (which is really small). But several people win this lottery every year. Sometimes every week.
Here is my point. Don't use probability to confuse people. You can't use probability to PROVE that something is true or something is not true. You can only use it to understand how uncertain you are about that something.
My apologies to anyone. I felt the need to protect my discipline.
***Taking off my professor jacket***
Religion and faith are not about confusing other people. When you read the Quran does it seem as though it is authentic to you? If not then you are uncertain. Being uncertain is ok. Being uncertain is probably advantageous as it requires us to seek out Allah. It requires us to get to know him/her and to strive for certainty. Don't look for certainty in probabilities because you won't find it there. Look for certainty in your hearts, in a newborn's eyes, in the laughter of a friend. That is where you will find your certainty. There is where you will see Allah shine through to you. Be open to finding Allah and you will see his/her works. Once you see Allah's works you will be able to answer the question that is the title of this thread. Once you see Allah's works you will push your certainty to 1.
Just my thoughts.
Jewish Dude
:peace: Salam, Shalom, Peace :peace:
I like this post very much! I have not taken classes in statistics in many years, so it is really not something I'm strong in; however, describing probability as the language of uncertainty really clicked with me. Thanks for the insight! :bravo:
Quote from: JewishDude on February 16, 2011, 01:34:43 PM
Ahhhh the old if you can't convince them confuse them argument. And better yet confuse them with heavy maths that they probably don't know. So they feel not only confused but stupid and inferior.
***Putting on professor jacket*** (yes I have one)
As a person who does have the title "Tenured Associate Professor of Statistics" with a PhD in Statistics I do know a bit about probability. I do not claim to know everything about probability but I teach it at a university and have published many research articles in it.....
Oh no. Stats makes me want to crawl into a hole and hide! Well good on you for tackling it. :)
The probability of an event is a measure of the likelihood that the event will occur. Statisticians have agreed on the following rules and conventions.(from http://stattrek.com/Help/Glossary.aspx)
It doesn't mention that "you can only use it to understand how uncertain you are". Can you please explain?
:peace:
peace JD,
Quote from: JewishDude on February 16, 2011, 01:34:43 PM
Ahhhh the old if you can't convince them confuse them argument. And better yet confuse them with heavy maths that they probably don't know. So they feel not only confused but stupid and inferior.
***Putting on professor jacket*** (yes I have one)
As a person who does have the title "Tenured Associate Professor of Statistics" with a PhD in Statistics I do know a bit about probability. I do not claim to know everything about probability but I teach it at a university and have published many research articles in it.....
I think the above comment is quite patronising to the lay reader. As statistics and probability are not that difficult to understand. In fact, I cite the following example in the PDF:
QuoteLets say ?1 in 2? people of the general population are male, and ?1 in 4? males are
brown eyed. Now, in order to find the probability of finding a male with brown eyes
within the general population, all you do, is multiply both probabilities as follows: 1/2 *
1/4 = 1/8 (which equates to a ?1 in 8? chance of finding a brown eyed male in the
general population).
Mathematicians prefer to state the probability value as a decimal, in this case that would
be ?0.125? (1/8). It is also well established that probability values closer to the value of
one are more likely to occur than those furthest from one. If a value of one is obtained,
this means that it is a certainty, if a value of zero is obtained this means it is impossible.
Are you implying the above is too confusing for people?
IF that were true, then I think pondering upon whether God exists or not or trying to understand The Quran will be the least of their problems.
QuoteWhat are you talking about??? using probability to PROVE something has to be true?!?! Probability is the language of uncertainty not the language of certainty. If you are certain then from a maths perspective you are deterministic. If you are uncertain you are "stochastic" or "probabilistic". You use probability to tell people YOU ARE UNCERTAIN. Rare events happen all the time. Ever read in the newspaper or hear on the news that someone won the lottery? The odds of winning the big prize in the Powerball lottery is around 1 in 53,000,000 (which is really small). But several people win this lottery every year. Sometimes every week.
Here is my point. Don't use probability to confuse people. You can't use probability to PROVE that something is true or something is not true. You can only use it to understand how uncertain you are about that something.
You may have some education in statistics, but it is clear you either did not read the article or if you did you did not understand it. Here are some nice quotes, taken directly from the article:
QuoteFirst of all, I would like to point out that no-one can prove or disprove that
God exists, 100% beyond doubt, because this is impossible to do either way.
QuoteIf you believe that this is possible, then you could just as easily believe that The Quran is
man made. However, if you believe that this occurrence would be very rare (because the
odds are far too low) then, you should also consider that The Quran may in fact be the
word of God
I do not talk about certainty in the article.
If you wish to comment on something, it is recommended to actually read it before commenting on it.
Wakas I can't be sure (it was a little unclear since JewishDude didn't mention anyone in the post) but he might have been referring to another commenter who spoke numerically in his/her post? But, like I said...not really sure. (and no stats to back up my idea :D)
Sorry to offend anyone.
My comment is about the fact that people often confuse people in order to convince them. And then say if you don't understand then you aren't worthy of the knowledge. Think about the people who guard the hadith against interpretation. They say Itijihad is closed and you need to be an expert in order to understand it. That makes people feel inferior or plain stupid.
My personal opinion about mathematics/statistics is it allows me to see the patterns in the world that Allah created. There is a funny saying:
Some use statistics like a drunkard uses a lamp post, he uses it for support instead of illumination. I think the same way about the Quran. People use it to support their position instead of using it for illumination.
Again if I offended any one I humbly ask for your forgiveness.
JewishDude
:peace: Shalom, Salam, Peace :peace:
Quote from: JDMy personal opinion about mathematics/statistics is it allows me to see the patterns in the world that Allah created. There is a funny saying:
Some use statistics like a drunkard uses a lamp post, he uses it for support instead of illumination. I think the same way about the Quran. People use it to support their position instead of using it for illumination.
Sweet quote, makes sense.
Quote from: WakasAre you implying the above is too confusing for people?
IF that were true, then I think pondering upon whether God exists or not or trying to understand The Quran will be the least of their problems.
I found it sexist personally and take offense to the rest of your statement :P
I take offence to your spelling of offence.
:P
Pedantic as always ;D
Omg you guys! lol. At least you are funny on this thread so you gave me a giggle this morning.
:peace:
I have the impression that statistics has its uses in things that occur in great numbers, but for a specific thing, there are no statistics. You may draw statististics about how much formal or even informal education believers or non believers have, how many children, any amount of data you care to take into consideration, but to say, fulan such and such is he or she a believer or not, there are no statistics. To say there is a God by this definition, you cannot say by statistics. And then the definitions... How can we define what we cannot fathom or grasp?
It is a matter of existence or non existence, if something exists then what really exists we may call God, or we may call it something else, but the point is The thing we re calling. If we conceive of existence without meaning... that for instance, I cannot grasp. For me everything has meaning, so how can I grasp or interact we something that has no meaning, included myself. If something has meaning and it exists, and everything that exists exists, and is coherent and has meaning, call it by whatever you want, but it is only ONE, everything is ONE, and there a MIND that is ONE. Otherwise we would be chaos and we couldn't possibly be here pinching words.
And that is not a matter of probabilities, that is a fact.
Salaam
Getting back to the topic,
In my opinion Quran is too trivial a thing to be compiled by Allah himself. I think HIS planning division must have floated the idea and Got it approved. HIS R&D cell, probably chalked a broad outline and then let the Owners/controllers for earthly affairs finish the job.
Once complete and approved, it must have been passed on to the messenger in charge (Gabriel) of inspectorate team, to be taken along in their next annual visit. They brought it down on one of the Shahar ur Ramadhan night some 14 centuries ago and handed it over to the last layer of controllers for deliverance across the border.
siki