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Science / History / Prophecy => Archeology & History => Topic started by: herbman on October 05, 2009, 08:29:01 AM

Title: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 05, 2009, 08:29:01 AM
Salam, Peace,

first of all some background on the subject:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598577.0

My research:

Majority has conclude that Moses story with Fir3awn was the story of Pharao in Masr (Egypt). 
Because
1- Biblical background
2- Misr is known today and in early time as Egypt
3- Pharao looks similar to Fir3awn

Xerxes

I strongly doubt this strory and as seen in the link some think it is Sargon. other Pharao and I think it is Xerxes (King of Persia) because:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia

Quran 89:10
And with Pharaoh, Lord of Stakes?

Quran 38:12
Before them (were many who) rejected messengers, the People of Noah, and `Ad, and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stakes.

God knows what a pyramid is and what a stake is!!!!

please see persepolis stakes/pillars:

http://www.hansrossel.com/fotos/fotografie/iran/ir_d5.htm

Also in Quran 66:11 Fir3awn's wife submitted to God, in the Bible there is a legend about Xerses wife helping children of Israel, her name judaised name is Esther.

But never found any story regarding Pharaoh's wife beeing submitted to God!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther

66:11
And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";

Haman

Adding to that, this conversation between Fir3awn and Haman, in 28:38 see also Quran 40:24, 29:39,:

28:38
Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"

Haman in the Bible is a vizir of Xerxes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman_(Bible)
Jewish know well about him because it was one of the greatest persecutor they had :"Haman and his wife Zeresh instigate a plot to kill all the Jews of ancient Persia"

the official sunni version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman_(Islam)

and finally, a scientic point of vieu about Moses and Exodus:

- no trace of big jewish community under Pharao
- no slavery under Pharao, people who build pyramids were free people
- no writen trace about Moses story, strangely egyptians were writing all accounting stuff
- to resume no archeological finding about hebrous in Egypt, only the Bible refer of it!!!
please see the following article on wiki, sorry it is available only in french try some web translator:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn%C3%A9es_arch%C3%A9ologiques_sur_l%27Exode_et_Mo%C3%AFse

This was initiated because of verse in 17:1

argumenting that God's servant could be either Moses than Mohamed sws

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His Servant for Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose precincts We did bless― in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the one Who heareth and seeth (all things).


44:23 about Moses:

The reply came: "March forth with My servants by night: for ye are sure to be pursued

The same expression is used Isra.

The pending question is if verse 17:1 talks about Moses, what is then the Sacred Mosque and the Farthest Mosque?

Peace

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: nimnimak_11 on October 07, 2009, 08:48:14 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 08, 2009, 02:03:36 AM
Peace,

don't get me wrong I am not saying Moses story occured in Persia.
Xerses was rulling from Persia to Egypt including Babylon.  In fact, one of the places where the story could occured is Babylon.
here is a short summary from wiki:
"Under Cyrus and the subsequent Persian king Darius the Great, Babylon became the capital city of the 9th Satrapy (Babylonia in the south and Athura in the north), as well as a centre of learning and scientific advancement. In Achaemenid Persia, the ancient Babylonian arts of astronomy and mathematics were revitalised and flourished, and Babylonian scholars completed maps of constellations. The city was the administrative capital of the Persian Empire, the preeminent power of the then known world, and it played a vital part in the history of that region for over two centuries. Many important archaeological discoveries have been made that can provide a better understanding of that era.[11][12]"


example 1:

43:51
And Fir3awn proclaimed among his people, saying: "O my people! Does not the dominion of Misr belong to me, (witness) these streams flowing underneath my (palace)? What! see ye not then?

Both Egypt and Babylon has the criteria, in Egypt is the Nil stream and in Babylon the Tigris and Eufrate.
Misr see PRL: he made it (namely a town) a limit/boundary between two things, partition, barrier, limit, great town, Egypt

Both Babylon and Egypt can be elected as  Misr.

Example 2:

40:36-37
Pharaoh said: "O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means

"The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the God of Moses; but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!" Thus was made alluring, in Pharaoh's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the Path; and the plot of Pharaoh led to nothing but perdition (for him).


This seem similar to the Babel Tower:
Look at the section Quran!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

Example 3:

7:137
And We made a people, considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both East and West lands― whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride).

Are the Pyramids still standing? Yes
What about the buildings in Babylon?
Do you belive in God's word? Then 7:137 do not apply to Egypt and Pharaon!!!!!

Example 4:
Quran 28:1-14
The story of the baby lost in the river
please read Sigmund Freud book Moses and Monotheism, first time this story is told is in Babylon!

Example 4
Historical and archeological contradiction about cruxifiction in Egypt.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/crucifixion2.htm
here is the answer to that claim:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/crucify.html#

also I highlight this:

"Crucifixion, an important method of capital punishment, particularly among the Persians, Seleucids, Jews, Carthaginians, and Romans [was practiced] from about the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD. Constantine the Great, the first Christian emperor, abolished it in the Roman Empire in AD 337, out of veneration for Jesus Christ, the most famous victim of crucifixion. ... [The earliest recording of a crucifixion was] in 519 BC [when] Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon."

Example 5
Quran 28:38
Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"

baked bricks not used in Egypt for Royal constructions!
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/bricks2.htm


Peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ahmad Bilal on October 08, 2009, 06:45:28 AM
Peace,

I think you may be right. In light of these occurrances happening in Babylon, not Egypt, the Qur'aanic story makes perfect sense... This is definately something worth looking into. Thanks for the info...

Peace,

Ahmad
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: theNabster on October 08, 2009, 07:53:34 AM
Peace herbman,
thank you very much herbman for this piece of research,
this is what i call constructive sharing
it is worth writing a thesis on at the very least!
carry on please...
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Phil on October 08, 2009, 11:12:10 AM
<snip>


This seem similar to the Babel Tower:
Look at the section Quran!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

<snip>


Is it possible that the above may have connection with the story as in Q105:3?   :-\
Waarsala AAalayhim tayran ababeela

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: arista on October 08, 2009, 10:28:26 PM
Salam,

any connection with this research? http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/DNAProjectOutline.html (*see where moses and aaron grave are...)
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: afridi220 on October 09, 2009, 11:51:37 AM
 :nope: Cannot digest this story even after eating a full bottle of hajmola digestive tablets.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Rami on October 09, 2009, 12:13:55 PM
:nope: Cannot digest this story even after eating a full bottle of hajmola digestive tablets.

As if you digested the original story.  :laugh:

Musa is an Assyrian name? and he had a SUMERIAN with him?

Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: theNabster on October 09, 2009, 01:43:13 PM
peace herbman, all
more than interesting, will revolutionize the reading of the bible, and archaeologists can start to use better clues to dig for biblical evidence. now first question, where is the likely place for the crossing of the sea in this case?

As if you digested the original story.  :laugh:

Musa is an Assyrian name? and he had a SUMERIAN with him?

Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Rami on October 10, 2009, 04:04:32 AM
peace herbman, all
more than interesting, will revolutionize the reading of the bible, and archaeologists can start to use better clues to dig for biblical evidence. now first question, where is the likely place for the crossing of the sea in this case?


The Euphrates river?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 10, 2009, 12:31:20 PM
Peace herbman,
thank you very much herbman for this piece of research,
this is what i call constructive sharing
it is worth writing a thesis on at the very least!
carry on please...

Peace Nabster, all,

First, Thanks for your support!

Secondly, to find out our way we need to take the scripture without any predesigned ideas then everything becomes clear in the light of the Great Reading.

Let's start:
Quote
peace herbman, all
more than interesting, will revolutionize the reading of the bible, and archaeologists can start to use better clues to dig for biblical evidence. now first question, where is the likely place for the crossing of the sea in this case?

Nowhere in AL Quran God swt talks about a sea that opens path and floods Fir3awn and his army!!!
Let's have a look to the verses:

First
God inspired Moses to take a certain path.
20:77

وَلَقَدْ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَسْرِ بِعِبَادِي فَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ طَرِيقًا فِي الْبَحْرِ

يَبَسًا
لَا تَخَافُ دَرَكًا وَلَا تَخْشَىٰ


We sent an inspiration to Moses: "Travel by night with my servants, and show them a path in the dry sea, without fear of being overtaken (by Pharaoh) and without (any other) fear.

Second
Fir3awn and his people get submerged

20:78

فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ بِجُنُودِهِ فَغَشِيَهُمْ مِنَ الْيَمِّ مَا غَشِيَهُمْ

Then Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and covered them up.

in PRL
Ya-Miim-Miim = sea, river, flood. To aim at getting, to intend, go towards, to have recourse to, to resort to, to head for, to be thrown in the river, purpose a thing, clean with dust or pure earth.

third
Ya-Mim-Mim is used in verse 20:39 and indicates that God is talking about a river:

20:39
أَنِ اقْذِفِيهِ فِي التَّابُوتِ فَاقْذِفِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ الْيَمُّ بِالسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِي وَعَدُوٌّ لَهُ ۚ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِنِّي وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَىٰ عَيْنِي

`Throw (the child) into the chest and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.

Four
So we know Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river.  Which river?
As Rami said Euphrates.
Why?
First we know Euphrates river shifted at least twice from its channel.  One at the time Persian Kings were ruling!

http://books.google.it/books?id=BPdLxEyHci0C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Euphrates+has+shifted+its+channel&source=bl&ots=sSUP8Oicx8&sig=P015tFphJ1FT3d2jNnttQVMyoYI&hl=en&ei=ns7QSsKWG9aMsAbQ18CsCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Euphrates%20has%20shifted%20its%20channel&f=false

other scientific fact
http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/Athens2007/FP093.pdf

wiki:
"The site at Babylon consists of a number of mounds covering an oblong area roughly 2 kilometers by 1 kilometer, oriented north to south totalling around 850 hectares. The site is bounded by the Euphrates River on the west, and by the remains of the ancient city walls otherwise. Originally, the Euphrates roughly bisected the city, as is common in the region, but the river has since shifted its course so that much of the remains on the former western part of the city are now inundated. Some portions of the city wall to the west of the river also remain. Several of the sites mounds are more prominent."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon


And as Al Quran is detailed we know even how it comes:

7:133
فَأَرْسَلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الطُّوفَانَ وَالْجَرَادَ وَالْقُمَّلَ وَالضَّفَادِعَ وَالدَّمَ آيَاتٍ مُفَصَّلَاتٍ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا وَكَانُوا قَوْمًا مُجْرِمِينَ

So We sent (plagues) on them; wholesale Death Locusts, Lice, Frogs, and Blood: signs openly Self-explained; but they were steeped in arrogance, a people given to sin.

Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.

Conclusion:
1- Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river
2- Moses escaped using a path through a dry sea inspired by God
3- Fir3awn and his army were flooded because before that event it was heavily raining

Salam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 13, 2009, 10:03:16 AM
Peace Nabster, all,

First, Thanks for your support!

Secondly, to find out our way we need to take the scripture without any predesigned ideas then everything becomes clear in the light of the Great Reading.

Let's start:
Nowhere in AL Quran God swt talks about a sea that opens path and floods Fir3awn and his army!!!
Let's have a look to the verses:

First
God inspired Moses to take a certain path.
20:77

وَلَقَدْ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَسْرِ بِعِبَادِي فَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ طَرِيقًا فِي الْبَحْرِ

يَبَسًا
لَا تَخَافُ دَرَكًا وَلَا تَخْشَىٰ


We sent an inspiration to Moses: "Travel by night with my servants, and show them a path in the dry sea, without fear of being overtaken (by Pharaoh) and without (any other) fear.

Second
Fir3awn and his people get submerged

20:78

فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ بِجُنُودِهِ فَغَشِيَهُمْ مِنَ الْيَمِّ مَا غَشِيَهُمْ

Then Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and covered them up.

in PRL
Ya-Miim-Miim = sea, river, flood. To aim at getting, to intend, go towards, to have recourse to, to resort to, to head for, to be thrown in the river, purpose a thing, clean with dust or pure earth.

third
Ya-Mim-Mim is used in verse 20:39 and indicates that God is talking about a river:

20:39
أَنِ اقْذِفِيهِ فِي التَّابُوتِ فَاقْذِفِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ الْيَمُّ بِالسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِي وَعَدُوٌّ لَهُ ۚ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِنِّي وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَىٰ عَيْنِي

`Throw (the child) into the chest and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.

Four
So we know Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river.  Which river?
As Rami said Euphrates.
Why?
First we know Euphrates river shifted at least twice from its channel.  One at the time Persian Kings were ruling!

http://books.google.it/books?id=BPdLxEyHci0C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Euphrates+has+shifted+its+channel&source=bl&ots=sSUP8Oicx8&sig=P015tFphJ1FT3d2jNnttQVMyoYI&hl=en&ei=ns7QSsKWG9aMsAbQ18CsCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Euphrates%20has%20shifted%20its%20channel&f=false

other scientific fact
http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/Athens2007/FP093.pdf

wiki:
"The site at Babylon consists of a number of mounds covering an oblong area roughly 2 kilometers by 1 kilometer, oriented north to south totalling around 850 hectares. The site is bounded by the Euphrates River on the west, and by the remains of the ancient city walls otherwise. Originally, the Euphrates roughly bisected the city, as is common in the region, but the river has since shifted its course so that much of the remains on the former western part of the city are now inundated. Some portions of the city wall to the west of the river also remain. Several of the sites mounds are more prominent."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon


And as Al Quran is detailed we know even how it comes:

7:133
فَأَرْسَلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الطُّوفَانَ وَالْجَرَادَ وَالْقُمَّلَ وَالضَّفَادِعَ وَالدَّمَ آيَاتٍ مُفَصَّلَاتٍ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا وَكَانُوا قَوْمًا مُجْرِمِينَ

So We sent (plagues) on them; wholesale Death Locusts, Lice, Frogs, and Blood: signs openly Self-explained; but they were steeped in arrogance, a people given to sin.

Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.

Conclusion:
1- Fir3awn and his army were flooded by a river
2- Moses escaped using a path through a dry sea inspired by God
3- Fir3awn and his army were flooded because before that event it was heavily raining

Salam
any thought?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on October 16, 2009, 03:50:00 AM
Salam,

I see no reason to indicate that Phraroh was other than the ones we know historically ruled out of Egypt.

If you look at the map of the kingdom of Egypt at its peak (http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_egyptian_empire_1450_bc.html) you can see that it covers not only the Nile, but also the Blue and White Nile (now in Sudan) as well as the Euphrates (Iraq/Syria) and smaller rivers such as those that flow today in Jordan, Lebanon (Litani).

That God does not mention the pyramids in relation to Pharoah might very well be for the reason that the Egyptians never built them, but, as is now being specultaed, they simply moved to reside in the land and adopted the pyramids as their signature/symbol.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on January 05, 2010, 10:32:45 AM
Hi all,

here is an argument from brother Pazuzu against Egypt taken from another thread:

Quote
There are 3 pieces of what I consider to be damning evidence of the fallacy of the theory of ?Israelites in Egypt?.

1)  The word "misr" in the Quran does NOT mean Egypt. It is not even a proper noun. The word means: "a walled fortified farming town", and pharaoh is simply the title of its ruler. Interstingly, Egypt came to be called "Misr" by the Arabs, for the first time, in much later ages. During the time of Moses, the Egyptians called their land: "Kimi", while the Greek historians called it "ha-ka-ptah" (meaning land of Ptah).  He points out that Egypt (Nile country) never had any fortified towns at all. All its towns were open and built on the banks of the nile.

2) There is ZERO mention of pyramids in the OT. (An oversight, perhaps?? Not likely!!)

3) This is straight from the Quran, which the Muslims have desecrated by making it a book to be read over the dead, or recited like parrots:

Are you all aware of the dream that Joseph had??

Let?s read the verses together:

{?Joseph, O man of truth, explain to us the matter regarding seven fat cows being eaten by seven thin ones, and seven green pods and others which are dry? Then perhaps I may go back to the people so they will know.? * He (Joseph) said: ?You will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat.? * ?Then there will come seven after that which are severe (with drought) and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored.? * ?Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again.?}?..[12:46-49]

Note from these verses that Joseph lived in a land where they depended on rain for agriculture. The proof is clear from the fact that he interpreted the king?s dream as meaning that there would be 7 ?severe years?, which will exhaust most of their crops (this is why he advised them to start storing food). The ?severity? here can only mean drought. The proof is in the verse which comes directly after, where Joseph says: ?A year will come with abundant rain, and you will produce once again?.

Egypt does NOT depend on rain for agriculture. This is geographical fact. It depends on the Nile river, with its extensive stream network as the source of water. This is why in the beginning of the story of Joseph, we find him in a well. Countries whose climates depend on rain for agriculture often build wells to store water. Abundant rain would be catastrophic for Egypt, because it would probably cause the flooding of the Nile (This is why the hieroglyphs tell us they used to sacrifice virgins to their gods in order to appease the Nile).

Joseph was in a country where the agriculture took place in enclosed plains, along mountain slopes!!! This is called in Arabic الزراعة البعلية   He was not in Egypt.

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on January 05, 2010, 12:25:47 PM
Peace,

Amarna letters/tablets (1350s ? 1330s BCE)
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.html

Interesting reading their stories (send archers! lol)

The king of Egypt (sar Misrii)

Rib Addi to a chief
EA#95 vd(53): mentions Aman and Baalat of Gubla; mentions houses, Amr[r]i, Adi-[Asirta], king of Mt[ana], Am[ur]i; says `Let [the kin]g (sar) of E[g]ypt (Miisri) sen[d] hs deputy to me'


Rib-Addi to the king, No. 53
EA#137 gc(103): uses 4 line greeting; states, `I have repeatedly written fo[r a garrison]; but it has not been given ...'; `... And I have sent (my) mes[senger] to the palace; but he [has turned back] with empty hands ...'; ... `Since no silver has been given, so they insult me, like the regents, my brothers, and they despise me.'; ... `I went to Hamuniri, and my brother, who is younger than I, incited Gubla so that the city was given to the sons of Abdi-Asirta. ... he ... committed a crime and drove me from the city. Let the king not hold back in respect to the deed of this dog.'; continues, `I cannot come to the lands of Egypt (i-ri-ba a-na m?t?ti mi-is-ri-e).

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on January 06, 2010, 03:24:19 AM
Peace,

2:61


وَإِذْ قُلْتُمْ يَا مُوسَىٰ لَنْ نَصْبِرَ عَلَىٰ طَعَامٍ وَاحِدٍ فَادْعُ لَنَا رَبَّكَ يُخْرِجْ لَنَا مِمَّا تُنْبِتُ الْأَرْضُ مِنْ بَقْلِهَا وَقِثَّائِهَا وَفُومِهَا وَعَدَسِهَا وَبَصَلِهَا ۖ قَالَ أَتَسْتَبْدِلُونَ الَّذِي هُوَ أَدْنَىٰ بِالَّذِي هُوَ خَيْرٌ ۚ اهْبِطُوا مِصْرًا فَإِنَّ لَكُمْ مَا سَأَلْتُمْ ۗ وَضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الذِّلَّةُ وَالْمَسْكَنَةُ وَبَاءُوا بِغَضَبٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ ۗ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَانُوا يَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ وَيَقْتُلُونَ النَّبِيِّينَ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ ۗ ذَٰلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوْا وَكَانُوا يَعْتَدُونَ


And remember ye said: "O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth-its pot-herbs and cucumbers its garlic lentils and onions." He said: "will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the signs of Allah and slaying His messengers without just cause. This because They rebelled and went on transgressing.

Waith qultum ya moosa lan nasbira AAala taAAamin wahidin faodAAu lana rabbaka yukhrij lana mimma tunbitu alardu min baqliha waqiththaiha wafoomiha waAAadasiha wabasaliha qala atastabdiloona allathee huwa adna biallathee huwa khayrun ihbitoo misran fainna lakum ma saaltum waduribat AAalayhimu alththillatu waalmaskanatu wabaoo bighadabin mina Allahi thalika biannahum kanoo yakfuroona biayati Allahi wayaqtuloona alnnabiyyeena bighayri alhaqqi thalika bima AAasaw wakanoo yaAAtadoona


PRL: = Miim-Sad-Ra (e.g. misra, maseeru) = he made it (namely a town) a limit/boundary between two things, partition, barrier, limit, great town, Egypt.

misr n. 2:61, 10:87, 12:21, 12:99, 43:51
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on January 07, 2010, 01:38:19 AM
Peace,

PRL: = Miim-Sad-Ra (e.g. misra, maseeru) = he made it (namely a town) a limit/boundary between two things, partition, barrier, limit, great town, Egypt.

misr n. 2:61, 10:87, 12:21, 12:99, 43:51

Qaryatinā -- community/tribe

Al-Madīnati  -- the city/town http://www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=21125

Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day.

As per the verse in question, for best meaning context (2:59-2:61) and cross-reference not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE which also have a definition of Egypt. In addition, look at the complaint and reply; to paraphrase -- if you want cucumbers go back to Egypt!

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on January 07, 2010, 03:45:34 AM
Peace,

Qaryatinā -- community/tribe

Al-Madīnati  -- the city/town http://www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=21125

Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day.

As per the verse in question, for best meaning context (2:59-2:61) and cross-reference not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE which also have a definition of Egypt. In addition, look at the complaint and reply; to paraphrase -- if you want cucumbers go back to Egypt!



Peace,

I do not reject this fact:

"Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day."

Tablets are mobile stuff (normal there were letters), they can be found in Egypt but they can be from anywhere else.
Why are they written in Akkadian and not in anciant egyptian?  Because there were send from Assyria, Palestine, Babylonia etc...
Taking that into account how do you know "sar Misrii" is pointing to the "King of Egypt" and not to any other "little king" in the region! Is it because there were found in Egypt?



But the question remaining is:

Is MISR exclusively used for Egypt and no other place?

Regards

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: RA786 on January 07, 2010, 06:17:31 AM
I have a Question....

Doest The Quran say that Pharoah's Main Archetect (Mentions him by name) Built a temple for him?


From Wikipedia
Haman (Islam)
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Jump to: navigation, search
In the Qur'an, Haman was the chief minister of Pharaoh at the time of Moses. The name Haman appears six times in the Qur'an.

According to the Qur'an, both Haman and Pharaoh had armies responsible for killing sons of the Israelites. God sent Moses to invite Pharaoh and Haman to worship him, and to seek protection of the Israelites Haman and Pharaoh were tormenting. Referring to Moses as a sorcerer and a liar, Pharaoh and Haman rejected Moses' call to worship the true God and refused to set the children of Israel free. Like Pharaoh, Haman eventually drowned.[1]

[edit] Interaction with Moses
God desires to overthrow Haman and Pharaoh by the oppressed Israelites, and to make them heirs to their power and wealth.[1] There is an irony in the fact that the infant Moses is picked up from the river by the household of the Pharaoh. Pharaoh wanted to kill the infant but changed his mind at the plea of his wife. Haman is singled out as a member of this household.[1]

As a young man, Moses kills an Egyptian, and subsequently flees to Midian. He later comes back as a messenger of God to Pharaoh and Haman saying: "Send with us the children of Israel, and do not torment them" (Qur'an 20:47). Pharaoh inquires Moses about the identity and characteristics of his God after which commands Haman to kindle a fire to bake clay for bricks (Qur'an 28:38) in order to build a lofty tower he can climb to be able to see the God of Moses (Qur'an 28:38; 40:36-7).[1]

Moses is not only sent to Pharaoh and Haman, but also to Korah (Arabic: Qarun) (Qur'an 40:24). According to Anthony Hearle Johns, "there is a vivid scene presenting the response of the three of them to Moses' message, 'A sorcerer! A liar! ... Kill the sons of those who believe along with him, and let their women live" (q 40:24-5), and Pharaoh turns to Korah and Hāmān, saying, 'Let me kill Moses, let him cry out to his lord' (q 40:28). In q 29:39 Haman, Korah and Pharaoh are named along with the peoples of Midian (q 29:36), ʿĀd (q.v.) and Thamūd (q.v.; q 29:38), as among those who rejected the prophets sent to them and were punished: Korah was swallowed up by the earth (q 28:81) and Hāmān drowned with Pharaoh (q 29:40)."[1]

[edit] Identity
Scholars disagree over the identity of Haman and the meaning of his name:[1] According to G. Vajda, for an unexplained reason, the Qur'an confuses Haman with the minister of King Ahasuerus of the Persian empire whose story is mentioned in the Biblical book of Esther[2] According to Anthony Hearle Johns however:[1]

"There is, however, no reason, other than the paradigmatic one of hostility to the Israelites, to make any direct connection between him and the eponymous minister of Ahasuerus referred to in Esther (3:1-6) who persuaded his ruler to issue an edict to exterminate the Jews of the Persian Empire because Mordechai refused to pay him homage. One suggestion is that Hāmān is an Arabized echo of the Egyptian Hā-Amen, the title of a high priest second only in rank to Pharaoh (Asad, Message, 590, n. 6). The name, however, may have become a time-honored designation for any court official hostile to the Jews and belief in the one God. His role is marginally elaborated in the "stories of the prophets" literature (qisas al-anbiya, see Kisāʾī, Tales, 213, 226-7, 229)."


"Fir'uan (Pharaoh) said: "O chiefs! I know not that you have an Allah other then me. So kindle for me (a fire), 'O' Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Srhan (a lofty tower or a palace) in order that I may (climb) look at (or look for) the Allah of Moses; and verily, I think that he (Moses) is one of the liars."

(Sura 28. Al-Qasas Section 4 Ayat 38)

And Fir'uan said; "O Ham'an! Build me a tower that I may arrive at ways > the ways of the heavens and I may look upon the Allah of Moses: But verily I think him to be a liar."


(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/haman43.jpg)

Here Is a Good Website to check out, Read, Refute, or Varify...There are also some videos on youtube about the Issue.
http://www.classicalislam.com/pages/articles/pyramids.htm


I was watching a video that was explaining how one of the Egytian kings Pharoah's Left egypt to concure new land, and as a way to cover it up he created the story of Moses Since Many people in the future would ask questions about such a giant group of egyptians leaving egypt...So they created the sotry of moses as a cover story and then created judaism to rule from new countries...

However I dont subscribe to this belief...I feel there is Little to No Basis and it is from the Zeitigist Movies, which seems to have many errors and fallacies... But Whether it was a REAL King from Egypt or it was Moses (an EX-Prince of Egypt) what does it matter?
Both Were Suposidily, Egyptian Royals who went on an Exodus and Suposidily Left the Oppressive Egypt with a bunch of People...and wanted to create a new place of Dwelling...

So whether it was REALLY Moses or the Roayal Egyptian...or BOTH...what difference does it make?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on January 07, 2010, 06:33:02 AM
Peace all,

No it makes no difference at all.

I personnaly think that in the Reading God is intentionnaly vague on geographical location and these stories are but (real) examples for humanity, these stories can be translocated anywhere on earth where any king/governor could oppress people for their origin/religion e.g. Hitler and nazism in Germany, Appartheid in South Africa, Arabs in Palestine etc...

Peace

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: RA786 on January 07, 2010, 06:44:20 AM
As-salam,

Yes Brother, I agree.

I think They are Multiple meanings in the Quran.

Yes, I think there really was a Specific Pharoah mentioned in the Quran and a Specific Muhammad and Musa...
But I also believe that at the SAME time, Pharoah can also be Modern Pharoah.

Just Like there really was a place called Babylon (original)...But also today there are many Cities/Systems that resemble and Embody the Attributes of Babylon thus making them "Modern Day Babylon".

Personnaly, I Do believe in Emulation of the Prophets...But not to the extant of the Sunnis and Shia..
For example, I believe there really was a Moses (pbuh), But I also feel that at certain times in my life and in your life.....we are Moses.
(not LITERALLY) but Symbolicly. We share some of the similar trails that Moses went through and share the similair exodus.
Emulation meaning, Every Prophet has a different story of how they came to Islam and their trials... We as Believers Sometimes share or try to share their traits and charactoristics. Sometimes we even share their Similar struggles.

Sometimes we are Muhammad. (agin not LITERALLY THEE Muhammad) but symbolically represent Muhammad by enduring some of the trials he went through and his quest for freedom, and submission to Allah.
(That type of emulation)

Every Generation has its Pharoah and its Babylon. Its the Prinicap that matters. :D
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on January 09, 2010, 09:01:41 AM
Peace,

I do not reject this fact:

"Those 3,300+ year old tablets confirm Egypt was known by that name in the ancient world according to other empires (Hittites, Canaanites, Assyrians, etc) and themselves as they still are called by that name to this day."

Tablets are mobile stuff (normal there were letters), they can be found in Egypt but they can be from anywhere else.
Why are they written in Akkadian and not in anciant egyptian?  Because there were send from Assyria, Palestine, Babylonia etc...
Taking that into account how do you know "sar Misrii" is pointing to the "King of Egypt" and not to any other "little king" in the region! Is it because there were found in Egypt?



But the question remaining is:

Is MISR exclusively used for Egypt and no other place?

Regards



Yes, that's to whom the letters were being addressed (interesting character)...

Rebel Pharaoh: Sneak Peek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0KlSDNmPgE

Akenaten The religious Revolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbBbrhQ4WQA&feature=related

Nice song...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSWyAK5NjW0
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hope4 on January 09, 2010, 01:04:24 PM
Its amazing that there have been many discoveries in Eygpt, but no where has there been anything writen on the so called isrealie slaves that did all the work there. I think the only mention of Isreal by name was a tablet which mentioned isreal conquered, which I saw on a documentary. Can it be that Egyptians did not want to document a dark past?
 :peace: 
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: ihsan on May 26, 2010, 04:48:49 AM
http://www.exodusconspiracy.com/

PROOF af the EXODUS!!!!!
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on August 22, 2010, 08:30:52 AM
Thank you herbman for great info.. All those facts proves Moses was not in Egypt IMO. Actually God is giving us very clear clues for finding the proper info about story of Moses in Quran.

Also, these facts clearing that why Egypt Kingdom continued to date of Romans..instead of ended via river flood much before Christ.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Wakas on September 27, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X/
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on September 28, 2010, 01:18:34 AM
Peace herbman,


Quran 89:10
And with Pharaoh, Lord of Stakes?

Quran 38:12
Before them (were many who) rejected messengers, the People of Noah, and `Ad, and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stakes.

God knows what a pyramid is and what a stake is!!!!

please see persepolis stakes/pillars:

http://www.hansrossel.com/fotos/fotografie/iran/ir_d5.htm


I don't think God referred Pharaoh as the Lord of Stakes to the pyramids. It was to the Obelisk which can only be found in Egypt and they resemble giant stakes.

http://www.egipto.com/obeliscos/biblio.html (http://www.egipto.com/obeliscos/biblio.html)

The hieroglyphs inscribed on the obelisk were the title and the name of the ruling pharaoh.

http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/usrtsn0.htm (http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/usrtsn0.htm)

Hope this help.

Peace :peace:
tauhid101.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 01, 2010, 03:07:41 PM
I don't think God referred Pharaoh as the Lord of Stakes to the pyramids. It was to the Obelisk which can only be found in Egypt and they resemble giant stakes.

Only one obelisk could be assigned to a pharaoh, thus we can't assign all obelisks into one pharaoh's name. Calling a pharaoh as a "owner of obeliskS" is not logic.

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on October 02, 2010, 12:15:39 AM
Peace exodus,


Only one obelisk could be assigned to a pharaoh, thus we can't assign all obelisks into one pharaoh's name. Calling a pharaoh as a "owner of obeliskS" is not logic.


Do you mean the verse 89:10? Definitely we could not assign all the obelisks into one pharaoh's name. The word "pharaoh" was a title, like a "king" or a "emperor" it's not the ruler's name and from different dynasty:

Pharaoh Tuthmosis I, Karnak Temple, Luxor
Pharaoh Ramses II, Luxor Temple
Pharaoh Hatshepsut, Karnak Temple, Luxor
Pharaoh Senusret I, Al-Masalla area of Al-Matariyyah district in Heliopolis, Cairo
Pharaoh Ramses III, Luxor Museum
Pharaoh Ramses II, Gezira Island, Cairo, 20.4 m
Pharaoh Ramses II, Cairo International Airport, 16.97 m
Pharaoh Seti II, Karnak Temple, Luxor, 7 m
Pharaoh Senusret I, Faiyum (ancient site of Crocodilopolis), 12.9 m.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk#Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk#Egyptian)

Now if only we can ascertain which pharaoh was with Haman and Qarun? Doesn't the obelisk looks like a giant stake to you, exodus? The truth is there in Egypt for thousand of years. It is not about whether it's logical or not but only the Truth from God.

If and when you accept this to be the Truth from God, then you might want to read the "discoveries" by Ron Wyatt:

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing.htm (http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing.htm)

Peace :peace:
tauhid101.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 04, 2010, 01:38:03 AM
Peace exodus,

Do you mean the verse 89:10? Definitely we could not assign all the obelisks into one pharaoh's name. The word "pharaoh" was a title, like a "king" or a "emperor" it's not the ruler's name and from different dynasty:

It's highly possible that "Fraun" is a proper name of a king instead of a title. We have no any strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a title just by Qur'an.

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 04, 2010, 02:52:30 AM
It's highly possible that "Fraun" is a proper name of a king instead of a title. We have no any strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a title just by Qur'an.

Peace.
Did Allah have to put in every slight detail of what was well known at the time? Pharaoh of Egypt has been a title for the king of Egypt since before Moses. There is plenty enough strong evidence for that! There is also evidence in the previous books Allah tells you He also authored before Quran. Quran is not a stand alone revelation and that is proven by the many references to what is in those other revelations before it.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 04, 2010, 07:18:03 AM
Did Allah have to put in every slight detail of what was well known at the time? Pharaoh of Egypt has been a title for the king of Egypt since before Moses. There is plenty enough strong evidence for that! There is also evidence in the previous books Allah tells you He also authored before Quran. Quran is not a stand alone revelation and that is proven by the many references to what is in those other revelations before it.

We have two of choices:

* Describe traditions using God's words
* Describe God's words using traditions

I generally choose first one.

[40:46]The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said): Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.

If "Pharaoh" is just a title, can you confirm that all generations of Pharaoh deserved most awful doom?

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 04, 2010, 10:39:15 AM
We have two of choices:

* Describe traditions using God's words
* Describe God's words using traditions

I generally choose first one.

[40:46]The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said): Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.

If "Pharaoh" is just a title, can you confirm that all generations of Pharaoh deserved most awful doom?

Peace.
no of course not, can you confirm that all desert arabs are worst in hypocrisy?
 It is speaking about a time in history that was past when Quran was revealed, it is talking about those that worshipped pharaoh as a God, all pharoahs, not just one. It is a title and that verse is talking about the one that was in the time of Moses which was a different pharaoh to the one in Chapter 12 (called the king of Egypt), which can be found in Genesis chapter 40.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 04, 2010, 10:45:32 AM
Did Allah have to put in every slight detail of what was well known at the time? Pharaoh of Egypt has been a title for the king of Egypt since before Moses. There is plenty enough strong evidence for that! There is also evidence in the previous books Allah tells you He also authored before Quran. Quran is not a stand alone revelation and that is proven by the many references to what is in those other revelations before it.

Salam,

I would be very interested by your thought and would like you to explain this fact:

Quote
{We thus took vengeance upon them by drowning them in a fast current (of water), for their denial of Our signs, and their disregard of them * And We let the people who were persecuted inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived.}....[7:137]

The above verses are telling us, in words that are as clear a the sun, that the Israelites INHERITED the land AFTER pharaoh's reign came to a watery end.

Answer me this:  Is there any proof od the Israelites ever having ruled Egypt???


Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 04, 2010, 11:29:51 AM
Salam,

I would be very interested by your thought and would like you to explain this fact:
{We thus took vengeance upon them by drowning them in a fast current (of water), for their denial of Our signs, and their disregard of them * And We let the people who were persecuted inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived.}....[7:137]

The above verses are telling us, in words that are as clear a the sun, that the Israelites INHERITED the land AFTER pharaoh's reign came to a watery end.

Answer me this:  Is there any proof od the Israelites ever having ruled Egypt???

The land that was blessed was Israel. This watery end was not the end of Pharaoh, only of that one, there were more after and Cleopatra was the last known Pharaoh. It was after Moses freeing his people that the revelation came to him of the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai and Israel and Egypt have fought over this land which is to the west of Israel and now part of Egypt. Moses was in Sinai for 40 years, this was Israeli land at that time.

Prior to this Joseph (father of Jacob (Jacob was later named Israel)) had been a high official in Egypt and is thought to be the Imhotep that saved Egypt from the famine years. There has always been history between Egypt and Israel and you have to bear in mind that borders now are not the same as borders then. Egypt was much larger than it is now.

Sorry if that doenst answer your question, got to go out so it was quick.  :peace:
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 06, 2010, 03:58:46 AM
no of course not, can you confirm that all desert arabs are worst in hypocrisy?

If God Says so, what can I say additionally? I think there is no one here to claiming that "badawii" is a proper name instead of just a title. Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy".

Quote
It is speaking about a time in history that was past when Quran was revealed, it is talking about those that worshipped pharaoh as a God, all pharoahs, not just one. It is a title and that verse is talking about the one that was in the time of Moses which was a different pharaoh to the one in Chapter 12 (called the king of Egypt), which can be found in Genesis chapter 40.

Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings.

This result totally related with pure logic beyond of traditions. Logic is the most effective for understanding efforts of Qur'an. We are responsible from our logic beyond of traditions. Jewish/Christian traditions are most effective barriers standing front of realizing true aspect of Moses story.

Additionally, please read the topic from beginning, then its possible to you have to see why "Misr" translated mistakenly as "Egypt" in Qur'an.

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 06, 2010, 04:38:02 AM
If God Says so, what can I say additionally? I think there is no one here to claiming that "badawii" is a proper name instead of just a title.
there are hundreds of Egyptian here with the name Badawi

Quote
Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy".
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.

Quote
Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings.
There are many references to 'most awful doom' in Quran regarding many types of people.

Quote
This result totally related with pure logic beyond of traditions. Logic is the most effective for understanding efforts of Qur'an. We are responsible from our logic beyond of traditions. Jewish/Christian traditions are most effective barriers standing front of realizing true aspect of Moses story.
I agree, use some

Quote
Additionally, please read the topic from beginning, then its possible to you have to see why "Misr" translated mistakenly as "Egypt" in Qur'an.

Peace.
Do some research. Misr is Egypt, it is the Arabic name for Egypt. England is the English name for England and Inglaterra is the Arabic name for England. Lebanon is the English for Lebanon, Libnan is the Arabic. America is English for America, Amrika is Arabic.

Egypt or Misr or Mizraim it is still th same land.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 06, 2010, 06:09:14 AM
there are hundreds of Egyptian here with the name Badawi

Please don't act as a child. You know what i mean exactly.

Quote
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.

I just trying tell you to we don't have strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a people. We can assume "badawi" as a people because of evidence of linguistics.

Quote
There are many references to 'most awful doom' in Quran regarding many types of people.

We are talking about generations of Pharaoh. If paharaoh is a people, then all of them have to be warned by God's messenger, witnessed to God's miracle then punished by God. Otherwise, deserving same awful doom as Moses's Pharaoh is NOT FAIR.

Quote
Do some research.

Ok..Let's get start here:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599235.msg236636#msg236636

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on October 07, 2010, 01:11:06 AM
Peace,

It's highly possible that "Fraun" is a proper name of a king instead of a title. We have no any strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a title just by Qur'an.

Peace.

There is no mention in the Quran that Firaun is a proper name or a title and God did not mention the name of that particular Firaun or Pharaoh during Moses. But there are plenty of archaeological evidences that Firaun in Arabic is the Pharaoh in English of Egypt.

If you read the articles of Ron Wyatt on his website, the chariot wheels they found at the crossing of the Red Sea were confirmed from the 18th Dynasty and further to their research, they found that there is a land bridge under the Red Sea at that particular place of crossing.

http://wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm (http://wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm)

Whats important here is that Moses was in Egypt as per topic.

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on October 07, 2010, 01:28:12 AM


We have two of choices:

* Describe traditions using God's words
* Describe God's words using traditions

I generally choose first one.

[40:46]The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said): Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.

If "Pharaoh" is just a title, can you confirm that all generations of Pharaoh deserved most awful doom?

Peace.

The above verse should be cross-referenced with all the stories of Moses in the Quran. It is not logical referring to one verse only when asking a question.

26:27   (Pharaoh) said: "Truly your messenger who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!"
26:28   (Moses) said: "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! If ye only had sense!"
26:29   (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"

28:38   Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! No god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned I think (Moses) is a liar!"
28:39   And he was arrogant and insolent in the land, beyond reason, he and his hosts: they thought that they would not have to return to Us!"
28:40   So We seized him and his hosts, and We flung them into the sea: now behold what was the End of those who did wrong!
28:41   And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find.
28:42   In this world We made a Curse to follow them: and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the loathed.

The topic is about Moses and the particular Pharaoh during the exodus. It was the Pharaoh and his hosts during Moses who were drowned into the sea, condemned and cursed because the Pharaoh said he was god. Too bad for that particular Pharaoh because God decided to send Moses to him and show the Signs. Have you considered why, exodus? And why Egypt, and not other places, Abraham was send to the Egyptians, Joseph was send to the Egyptians and Moses. Maybe a new topic for Egypt should be started.

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on October 07, 2010, 02:09:28 AM
Peace,

If God Says so, what can I say additionally? I think there is no one here to claiming that "badawii" is a proper name instead of just a title. Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy".

Ayisha, I think he meant the Bedouins, the tribal desert dwellers.

The verse about the awful doom is a punishment already decreed and the worst in hypocrisy are attitudes and yet to be punished. But if a person is a hypocrite until his death, then he will deserve that same awful doom punishment. Once someone is decreed to be in the Fire, there is nothing special or difference about them. But if a hypocrite repented before his death then he will deserve the Garden. Let?s leave the punishment to God alone, as for the still living, the past mentioned in the Book are examples for us to choose and follow, so that we know what our future will be like.

Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings.

Read the above verses 26:29 and 28:38, the Pharaoh and his people during the time of Moses said he was god.

43:47   But when he(Moses) came to them with Our Signs, behold, they ridiculed them.
43:48   We showed them Sign after Sign, each greater than its fellow, and We seized them with Punishment, in order that they might turn (to Us).
43:49   And they said, "O thou sorcerer! Invoke thy Lord for us according to his covenant with thee; for we shall truly accept guidance."
43:50   But when We removed the Penalty from them, behold, they broke their word.
43:51   And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying: "O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, these streams flowing underneath me? What! See ye not then?
43:52   "Am I not better than this (Moses), who is a contemptible wretch and can scarcely express himself clearly?
43:53   "Then why are not gold bracelets bestowed on him, or come with him angels accompanying him in procession?"
43:54   Thus did he make fools of his people, and they obeyed him: truly were they a people rebellious.
43:55   When at length they provoked Us, We exacted retribution from them, and We drowned them all.
43:56   And We made them of the Past and an Example to later ages.

Jewish/Christian traditions are most effective barriers standing front of realizing true aspect of Moses story.

No it is not just the Jewish/Christian traditions who distorted the story of Moses, but the most ?effective barriers?, are those done by the Saudi authorities with their wahhabism. Have you seen this news report in 2005?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-destruction-of-mecca-saudi-hardliners-are-wiping-out-their-own-heritage-501647.html  (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-destruction-of-mecca-saudi-hardliners-are-wiping-out-their-own-heritage-501647.html)

And here is another from the American Muslim website:

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/saudi_destruction_of_muslim_historical_sites1/ (http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/saudi_destruction_of_muslim_historical_sites1/)

And if you Google Earth the place where Ron Wyatt discovered the Red Sea Crossing and Mt. Tur, you will find that most of the blackened mountain top has been scraped and the mountain east side are fenced and guarded by soldiers. They are all trying to destroy the Truth and the Signs from God and what did God say about this people, the rejectors of Truth and Faith. If they did not repent before their death, who do you think will be their leader to lead them to the Fire? The most awful doom punishment.

God had revealed all the evidences of Moses and the exodus to a Christian man (refer to the website), do you believe this verse?

5:82   Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 07, 2010, 02:17:24 AM
Peace,

There is no mention in the Quran that Firaun is a proper name or a title and God did not mention the name of that particular Firaun or Pharaoh during Moses.

If God should mention a particular name for Pharaoh, then how would you sure that is particular name? God mentioned Haman, Karun with their particular names, but for Firaun not?

There are strong mentions in the Quran that we can accept Firaun as a proper name,

* Used in a unique singular form without any exception along Quran
* Used for pointing a particular person along Qur'an
* Never used in plural form
* Mentioning other lower people ( Haman, Karun ..) using particular names but not for himself, produces an illogic situation

Quote
But there are plenty of archaeological evidences that Firaun in Arabic is the Pharaoh in English of Egypt.

Besides that not make any sense at all, If you can point me an archaeological and lungiustic evidence from Arabia that confirms that word of Firaun/Firuan used for Egypt kings before Qur'an, then I respect it. This evidence should be independent from previous religious texts.

Quote
If you read the articles of Ron Wyatt on his website, the chariot wheels they found at the crossing of the Red Sea were confirmed from the 18th Dynasty and further to their research, they found that there is a land bridge under the Red Sea at that particular place of crossing.

http://wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm (http://wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm)

Whats important here is that Moses was in Egypt as per topic.

Chariot wheels? I just wonder that if Wyatt would took Qur'an as only source, then would he sure about Red Sea that much prior to "chariot wheels" ?

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on October 07, 2010, 02:27:05 AM
Peace,

I just trying tell you to we don't have strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a people. We can assume "badawi" as a people because of evidence of linguistics.

From your earlier post you said Firaun is not a title but a proper name for a person. Now from above Firaun as a people. You still could not accept that Firaun in Arabic OR Pharaoh in English was a title for a single king, one person? And yet now you wanted to assume Firaun as a people?

We are talking about generations of Pharaoh. If paharaoh is a people, then all of them have to be warned by God's messenger, witnessed to God's miracle then punished by God. Otherwise, deserving same awful doom as Moses's Pharaoh is NOT FAIR.

If you read the above verse 28:40-42, you will understand that it was only the Pharaoh and his hosts during Moses who were drowned and condemned and cursed. Read and understand more of the Truth from God through His Book. Do extra research from archaeology reports and articles if the histories mention in the Book of Truth interest you. Whoever deserve the Fire or the Garden are already explain in detail and decreed in the Book.

God is Just, Merciful and Compassionate.

Peace.
tauhid101.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 02:37:54 AM
Please don't act as a child. You know what i mean exactly.
Please do not assume the position of guest and raj in their absence. Badawi is a name for many people here just as Muhammed is or Hassan is. If you mean Bedouins as Tauhid says then dont misspell and accuse me of being a child for misunderstanding.


Quote
I just trying tell you to we don't have strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a people. We can assume "badawi" as a people because of evidence of linguistics.
No one said Pharaoh were 'a people'. Egyptians are a people, Pharaoh was a KING. King is a title, Pharaoh is a title for ONE person at a time. Chapter 12 Pharaoh is refered to as king but it is Pharaoh of that time.

Quote
We are talking about generations of Pharaoh. If paharaoh is a people, then all of them have to be warned by God's messenger, witnessed to God's miracle then punished by God. Otherwise, deserving same awful doom as Moses's Pharaoh is NOT FAIR.
No, YOU are talking about generations of people and claiming its not fair. I am talking about Pharaoh at that time, a person, a King of Egypt at that time. This happened to ONE KING at that time. NOW the people 'of the land of Pharaoh' are 90% Muslims. There is no Pharaoh now, there is a president.

Bedouins are still Bedouins, they are a tribe of people. Badawi is a name of a person, not a tribe of people. Pharaoh was never a name, always was a title meaning King of Egypt.

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 02:52:03 AM
If God should mention a particular name for Pharaoh, then how would you sure that is particular name? God mentioned Haman, Karun with their particular names, but for Firaun not?


Quote
There are strong mentions in the Quran that we can accept Firaun as a proper name,

* Used in a unique singular form without any exception along Quran
* Used for pointing a particular person along Qur'an
* Never used in plural form
* Mentioning other lower people ( Haman, Karun ..) using particular names but not for himself, produces an illogic situation

*it is used in singular because there was only 1 king at that time in Egypt.
*the particular person was the king at that time
*again, 1 at a time. There is only one ruler, king at a time in any kingdom
*why illogical? Pharaoh had slaves, workers, high officials, the Ancient Egyptian Kingdom of this era was like no other on earth then or now.


Quote
Besides that not make any sense at all, If you can point me an archaeological and lungiustic evidence from Arabia that confirms that word of Firaun/Firuan used for Egypt kings before Qur'an, then I respect it. This evidence should be independent from previous religious texts.
Why would there be linguistic evidence from Arabia for this? you are asking for proof that the Arabs knew all this before Quran was revealed, prove to me they knew anything about the rest of Quran before it was revealed and you will prove its fake!

Like it or not this is about Egypt, Egypt played a huge part in all Gods books. Pharaoh is the king of Egypt and not someone from Arabia.

Quote
Chariot wheels? I just wonder that if Wyatt would took Qur'an as only source, then would he sure about Red Sea that much prior to "chariot wheels" ?

Peace.
That makes no sense
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 07, 2010, 02:55:22 AM
Please do not assume the position of guest and raj in their absence. Badawi is a name for many people here just as Muhammed is or Hassan is. If you mean Bedouins as Tauhid says then dont misspell and accuse me of being a child for misunderstanding.

 No one said Pharaoh were 'a people'. Egyptians are a people, Pharaoh was a KING. King is a title, Pharaoh is a title for ONE person at a time. Chapter 12 Pharaoh is refered to as king but it is Pharaoh of that time.
 No, YOU are talking about generations of people and claiming its not fair. I am talking about Pharaoh at that time, a person, a King of Egypt at that time. This happened to ONE KING at that time. NOW the people 'of the land of Pharaoh' are 90% Muslims. There is no Pharaoh now, there is a president.

Bedouins are still Bedouins, they are a tribe of people. Badawi is a name of a person, not a tribe of people. Pharaoh was never a name, always was a title meaning King of Egypt.



Peace Aysha, all,

can you then explain why فرعون fir3awn in the Quran is always written without the particule AL?

I mean if it was just a title any occurence of فرعون would mean "a king", indefinate case.
While putting "AL" would definetly proove it is a title.

Peace



Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 07, 2010, 03:12:19 AM
Peace,

From your earlier post you said Firaun is not a title but a proper name for a person. Now from above Firaun as a people. You still could not accept that Firaun in Arabic OR Pharaoh in English was a title for a single king, one person? And yet now you wanted to assume Firaun as a people?

I mentioned all of paharaohs as "people" while answering Ayaisha below. I thought Ayisha mentioned about all pharaohs as "people" then it was acceptable for me while assuming Fraun as title for all kings of Egypt. All pharaohs compose a group of "people" is it not?

Quote from: Ayisha
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.

Quote
If you read the above verse 28:40-42, you will understand that it was only the Pharaoh and his hosts during Moses who were drowned and condemned and cursed. Read and understand more of the Truth from God through His Book. Do extra research from archaeology reports and articles if the histories mention in the Book of Truth interest you. Whoever deserve the Fire or the Garden are already explain in detail and decreed in the Book.

God is Just, Merciful and Compassionate.

Thank you for good advise but you have to sure I know what I have readen from the Book. People sometimes failed to see basic Truth which standing front of us very clear.

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 03:20:53 AM
Peace Aysha, all,

can you then explain why فرعون fir3awn in the Quran is always written without the particule AL?

I mean if it was just a title any occurence of فرعون would mean "a king", indefinate case.
While putting "AL" would definetly proove it is a title.

Peace




This has been brought up before somewhere.
Pharaoh was and is never called The Pharaoh, or A Pharaoh, always just Pharaoh. Pharaoh was not just King, he was one of the GODS, he was worshipped as a god, sacrifices made to him along with other gods etc. Pharaoh means Great House which refered to the King's palace but during the new Kingdom (16th to 11th Century BC) this became the title used to refer to the king himself.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 03:31:41 AM
I mentioned all of paharaohs as "people" while answering Ayaisha below. I thought Ayisha mentioned about all pharaohs as "people" then it was acceptable for me while assuming Fraun as title for all kings of Egypt. All pharaohs compose a group of "people" is it not?


Quote from: Ayisha
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.

the group of people was in answer to your post:
 "Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy"." and

"Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings."

I replied that there are many groups of people refered to in Quran who will meet an awful doom.

The awful doom was in reference to 'the people of Pharaoh' and not all the Pharaohs.


Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 07, 2010, 03:43:00 AM
Please do not assume the position of guest and raj in their absence. Badawi is a name for many people here just as Muhammed is or Hassan is. If you mean Bedouins as Tauhid says then dont misspell and accuse me of being a child for misunderstanding.

raj in absence? I'm sorry but this should not be an answer for after claiming "childish act". Here is an internet forum, then I don't have to check your online status while answering you.

You have mentioned desert arabs, then i mentioned "badawi" which I thought it was arabic form of "desert arabs" instead of "badoui". You have to know what i meant.

I thought you are mentioning all pharaohs as "people" in quote below, then it was not unacceptable thing for me due to composing of paharaohs of a group of "people".

Quote
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.

I'm not fluent in English..this situation leaves a little bit misunderstood on me.

Peace.

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: herbman on October 07, 2010, 03:49:18 AM
This has been brought up before somewhere.
Pharaoh was and is never called The Pharaoh, or A Pharaoh, always just Pharaoh. Pharaoh was not just King, he was one of the GODS, he was worshipped as a god, sacrifices made to him along with other gods etc. Pharaoh means Great House which refered to the King's palace but during the new Kingdom (16th to 11th Century BC) this became the title used to refer to the king himself.

If you setup the rules then fine.  If Pharaoh is a title like "King" then it should have the same grammatical behaviour, e.g. we can find in the Quran malikun= a king and al maliku= the king, never the case with Pharaoh.

Peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 04:24:32 AM
If you setup the rules then fine.  If Pharaoh is a title like "King" then it should have the same grammatical behaviour, e.g. we can find in the Quran malikun= a king and al maliku= the king, never the case with Pharaoh.

Peace
why should it? It is not Arabic it is Ancient Egyptian and THE or A was never and is still never used for Pharaoh. I'm sure Allah was quite aware of the situation and got the grammar correct.

And I am not setting the rules, this is all ancient and well documented proven history that I am telling you. Egypt is FULL of this history in temples still standing and those unearthed, which is probably about 5% of what there is here.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 04:31:02 AM
raj in absence? I'm sorry but this should not be an answer for after claiming "childish act". Here is an internet forum, then I don't have to check your online status while answering you.

You have mentioned desert arabs, then i mentioned "badawi" which I thought it was arabic form of "desert arabs" instead of "badoui". You have to know what i meant.
It has nothing to do with checking online status before replying. It has to do with you calling me childish for no reason other than not understanding your error. I had no idea what you meant until it was pointed out the correct word you meant.

Quote
I thought you are mentioning all pharaohs as "people" in quote below, then it was not unacceptable thing for me due to composing of paharaohs of a group of "people".

I'm not fluent in English..this situation leaves a little bit misunderstood on me.

Peace.


I understand you are not fluent in English. The group of people that will meet an awful doom at that time in those verses were Pharaoh and the people of Pharaoh, those who worshipped him as god. Also there are many other groups of people and individuals that the same applies to according to Quran. The verse in question here was referring to this particular Pharaoh at the time of Moses and not all Pharaoh as a group of people.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 07, 2010, 04:37:43 AM
why should it? It is not Arabic it is Ancient Egyptian and THE or A was never and is still never used for Pharaoh. I'm sure Allah was quite aware of the situation and got the grammar correct.

If we should compose an arabic sentence using word of "Fraun" then it is not case of whether Ancient Egyptian or not. We have to use arabic grammatical rules, not ancient Egyptian rules.

1. He is Pharaoh
2. He is a Pharaoh
3. He is the Pharaoh
4. He is one of Pharaohs

You see, I can use an ancient Egyptian word with English grammatical rules. First one is the exact form which used along by Quran that implies on me a proper noun. Other ones implies such a title.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: exodus on October 07, 2010, 06:10:34 AM
It has nothing to do with checking online status before replying. It has to do with you calling me childish for no reason other than not understanding your error. I had no idea what you meant until it was pointed out the correct word you meant.

I'm sorry but mentioning hundreds of people those named "badawi" was childish act for me anyway while mentioning desert arabs in Quran. It is not case of that I'm used words of "badawi" or "badoui". Meaning of "jarring in absence", "Don't talk me like that when I'm not here" is it not? Then, what have I do for claiming you to acting as a child?

Quote
I understand you are not fluent in English. The group of people that will meet an awful doom at that time in those verses were Pharaoh and the people of Pharaoh, those who worshipped him as god. Also there are many other groups of people and individuals that the same applies to according to Quran. The verse in question here was referring to this particular Pharaoh at the time of Moses and not all Pharaoh as a group of people.

I'm agree on that God is calling a particular person to most awful doom in 40:46. This is the way of I'm trying to tell you to Fraun is name of a particular person.

[40:46]The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said): Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.

God orders here in Judgement Day. Then, If Pharaoh is a title, all pharaohs (Egyptian Kings) should be there. Then calling someone in Judgement Day as a title makes no sense. It is like "Cause king's folk to enter the most awful doom".

Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 07, 2010, 10:12:42 AM
I'm sorry but mentioning hundreds of people those named "badawi" was childish act for me anyway while mentioning desert arabs in Quran. It is not case of that I'm used words of "badawi" or "badoui". Meaning of "jarring in absence", "Don't talk me like that when I'm not here" is it not? Then, what have I do for claiming you to acting as a child?
i think we may have both got the wrong end of the stick because i have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote
I'm agree on that God is calling a particular person to most awful doom in 40:46. This is the way of I'm trying to tell you to Fraun is name of a particular person.

[40:46]The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said): Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.

God orders here in Judgement Day. Then, If Pharaoh is a title, all pharaohs (Egyptian Kings) should be there. Then calling someone in Judgement Day as a title makes no sense. It is like "Cause king's folk to enter the most awful doom".

Peace.
It makes sense if you see it properley as the Pharaoh at the time and the people at that time which is why i asked you about the desert arabs in the first place! Are ALL desert arabs the worst in hypocrisy NOW, have all of them ever been and does that verse refer to ALL of them for ever more?

Pharaohs folk were the people at that time who worshipped Pharaoh!

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tauhid101 on October 08, 2010, 08:12:14 AM
Peace Ayisha and all,


Like it or not this is about Egypt, Egypt played a huge part in all Gods books. Pharaoh is the king of Egypt and not someone from Arabia.


I always have questions about why God send the earlier prophets to Egypt mostly, before Moses and the Torah.

Have you heard and read Wayne Herschell, Ayisha? About Egypt and the ancient knowledge. Just don?t forget about God and the Book of Truth when you read them. :)

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/sphinx.htm (http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/sphinx.htm)

There is also a Dr. Paul Laviolette, astrophysicist, developer of Subquantum Kinetics, who make use of the dendera zodiac disc in Hator,  Egypt and the Tarot cards in his study of the cosmos? I find his theory predictions and their verification very much related to some of the verses in the Book of Truth.

"He is the developer of subquantum kinetics, a novel approach to microphysics that accounts for electric, magnetic, gravitational, and nuclear forces in a unified manner and resolves many long-standing physics problems. Based on the predictions of this theory, he developed an alternative cosmology that effectively replaces the big bang theory."

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/Witnesses/AllWitnesses/DrPaulLaViolette/tabid/259/Default.aspx (http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/Witnesses/AllWitnesses/DrPaulLaViolette/tabid/259/Default.aspx)

http://www.etheric.com/GalacticCenter/Galactic.html (http://www.etheric.com/GalacticCenter/Galactic.html)

Tell me what you think about these two people, if you find their works to have any relations to the Book of Truth. :)

Peace :peace:
tauhid101
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ayisha on October 08, 2010, 10:57:43 AM
Peace Ayisha and all,

I always have questions about why God send the earlier prophets to Egypt mostly, before Moses and the Torah.

Have you heard and read Wayne Herschell, Ayisha? About Egypt and the ancient knowledge. Just don?t forget about God and the Book of Truth when you read them. :)

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/sphinx.htm (http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/sphinx.htm)

There is also a Dr. Paul Laviolette, astrophysicist, developer of Subquantum Kinetics, who make use of the dendera zodiac disc in Hator,  Egypt and the Tarot cards in his study of the cosmos? I find his theory predictions and their verification very much related to some of the verses in the Book of Truth.

"He is the developer of subquantum kinetics, a novel approach to microphysics that accounts for electric, magnetic, gravitational, and nuclear forces in a unified manner and resolves many long-standing physics problems. Based on the predictions of this theory, he developed an alternative cosmology that effectively replaces the big bang theory."

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/Witnesses/AllWitnesses/DrPaulLaViolette/tabid/259/Default.aspx (http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/Witnesses/AllWitnesses/DrPaulLaViolette/tabid/259/Default.aspx)

http://www.etheric.com/GalacticCenter/Galactic.html (http://www.etheric.com/GalacticCenter/Galactic.html)

Tell me what you think about these two people, if you find their works to have any relations to the Book of Truth. :)

Peace :peace:
tauhid101

Thanks, will have a look at those.  :peace:
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: loxbox13 on February 17, 2011, 08:47:47 PM
Salam, Peace,

first of all some background on the subject:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598577.0

My research:

Majority has conclude that Moses story with Fir3awn was the story of Pharao in Masr (Egypt). 
Because
1- Biblical background
2- Misr is known today and in early time as Egypt
3- Pharao looks similar to Fir3awn

Xerxes

I strongly doubt this strory and as seen in the link some think it is Sargon. other Pharao and I think it is Xerxes (King of Persia) because:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia

Quran 89:10
And with Pharaoh, Lord of Stakes?

Quran 38:12
Before them (were many who) rejected messengers, the People of Noah, and `Ad, and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stakes.

God knows what a pyramid is and what a stake is!!!!

please see persepolis stakes/pillars:

http://www.hansrossel.com/fotos/fotografie/iran/ir_d5.htm

Also in Quran 66:11 Fir3awn's wife submitted to God, in the Bible there is a legend about Xerses wife helping children of Israel, her name judaised name is Esther.

But never found any story regarding Pharaoh's wife beeing submitted to God!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther

66:11
And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";

Haman

Adding to that, this conversation between Fir3awn and Haman, in 28:38 see also Quran 40:24, 29:39,:

28:38
Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"

Haman in the Bible is a vizir of Xerxes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman_(Bible)
Jewish know well about him because it was one of the greatest persecutor they had :"Haman and his wife Zeresh instigate a plot to kill all the Jews of ancient Persia"

the official sunni version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman_(Islam)

and finally, a scientic point of vieu about Moses and Exodus:

- no trace of big jewish community under Pharao
- no slavery under Pharao, people who build pyramids were free people
- no writen trace about Moses story, strangely egyptians were writing all accounting stuff
- to resume no archeological finding about hebrous in Egypt, only the Bible refer of it!!!
please see the following article on wiki, sorry it is available only in french try some web translator:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn%C3%A9es_arch%C3%A9ologiques_sur_l%27Exode_et_Mo%C3%AFse

This was initiated because of verse in 17:1

argumenting that God's servant could be either Moses than Mohamed sws

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His Servant for Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose precincts We did bless― in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the one Who heareth and seeth (all things).


44:23 about Moses:

The reply came: "March forth with My servants by night: for ye are sure to be pursued

The same expression is used Isra.

The pending question is if verse 17:1 talks about Moses, what is then the Sacred Mosque and the Farthest Mosque?

Peace



All the kings in Egypt are the prophets,  all of them,  history has been modified to change the future , byzoroastrians and by satanists allies

Ra Msses is Moses
Isis , was femisnised ,  for Isa , Maryamon,  is miriam , horonetop is Haroun etc...  the history of the prophets was twisted to make them look like a sufi religious rebels who were only bothering the people who were living good, with rituels.
the last mesenger is the last King Horemheb , is Mohamed Twisted so no one will notice,  u can see even the pictures of Mohamed in musuems with a twisted name, and the illuminati proud for making him one of their people while creating for us a personnage from the desert.
Here you can see the picture of Mohamed, and how he looked like ,  translate from frensh, and you see the similarities, even though history of archeologists is twisted and innacurate, but the similarities are stricking,   
no parents,  a sheperd when he was a kid, revolutionised the religion after people were lost in misery,  made wars, lost one, had two wives, took over the power, became the general , and the ruler, and in his time Egypt get to the peak of civilisation,  and the best is , he didn't have kids, and built a temple in medinet as a governement central etc... read it
Hebreu language gave biirth to arabic language,  it is the language of Bani Israel, when arabic started, meaning hebreu Evolved, that's all,  modern hebreu is  a fabrication. if you read them in arabic,  they sound the same, and write the same, except switching one single letter. r b became  b r
Mecca is called in Egypt Malqata
Yathrib is called in Egypt Athribis ,  noerth of malkata 300km
Medina is called Medinet e first temple built by the first monotheist religion in Egypt,  by Akhenaton  ,  there is no P in egyptian,  this name sound like Abraham The house that was built ,  called the temple of Aton,  sounds like Adam, the quran say it's the first house in becca. the name was twisted to "karnak " the house built by Akhenaton didn't have a ceiling,  the lat king of the synasty built the ceiling.

The temple of solomon is the pyramid with the missing cap,  they hid it from everyone just to keep out the history of the messengers
the statues built for solomon are still standing,  46 meters high,  plus the bassins mentioned in the quran.

the queen of Sheeba came from the south,  Sudan,  and that was an extension of Egypt. and that was the land of the hijra of the companions of mohamed,  they didn't cross thousands of KMs of the red sea,  they walked there.

The verse over it are 19 ,  is an image in the walls of Egypt with 19 angles over hell,  and that image is also in the book of the dead, that is why allah said , this number is so people of the book will know this is from god.


Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Prince on February 25, 2011, 06:01:39 AM
All the kings in Egypt are the prophets,  all of them,  history has been modified to change the future , byzoroastrians and by satanists allies

Ra Msses is Moses
Isis , was femisnised ,  for Isa , Maryamon,  is miriam , horonetop is Haroun etc...  the history of the prophets was twisted to make them look like a sufi religious rebels who were only bothering the people who were living good, with rituels.
the last mesenger is the last King Horemheb , is Mohamed Twisted so no one will notice,  u can see even the pictures of Mohamed in musuems with a twisted name, and the illuminati proud for making him one of their people while creating for us a personnage from the desert.
Here you can see the picture of Mohamed, and how he looked like ,  translate from frensh, and you see the similarities, even though history of archeologists is twisted and innacurate, but the similarities are stricking,   
no parents,  a sheperd when he was a kid, revolutionised the religion after people were lost in misery,  made wars, lost one, had two wives, took over the power, became the general , and the ruler, and in his time Egypt get to the peak of civilisation,  and the best is , he didn't have kids, and built a temple in medinet as a governement central etc... read it
Hebreu language gave biirth to arabic language,  it is the language of Bani Israel, when arabic started, meaning hebreu Evolved, that's all,  modern hebreu is  a fabrication. if you read them in arabic,  they sound the same, and write the same, except switching one single letter. r b became  b r
Mecca is called in Egypt Malqata
Yathrib is called in Egypt Athribis ,  noerth of malkata 300km
Medina is called Medinet e first temple built by the first monotheist religion in Egypt,  by Akhenaton  ,  there is no P in egyptian,  this name sound like Abraham The house that was built ,  called the temple of Aton,  sounds like Adam, the quran say it's the first house in becca. the name was twisted to "karnak " the house built by Akhenaton didn't have a ceiling,  the lat king of the synasty built the ceiling.

The temple of solomon is the pyramid with the missing cap,  they hid it from everyone just to keep out the history of the messengers
the statues built for solomon are still standing,  46 meters high,  plus the bassins mentioned in the quran.

the queen of Sheeba came from the south,  Sudan,  and that was an extension of Egypt. and that was the land of the hijra of the companions of mohamed,  they didn't cross thousands of KMs of the red sea,  they walked there.

The verse over it are 19 ,  is an image in the walls of Egypt with 19 angles over hell,  and that image is also in the book of the dead, that is why allah said , this number is so people of the book will know this is from god.

That's interesting. Would be good if you could create a separate topic expanding on what you wrote together with relevant links.

PEACE
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: mmkhan on March 02, 2011, 03:43:40 PM
Salaam,

Is this of any help to anyone?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread667378/pg1


May Allah guide us all towards the correct path  :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Riz on March 16, 2011, 09:54:22 AM
I posted this in a different thread, but it applies here as well.

As far as the story of Exodus goes, it is easily verifiable and there is much evidence that supports it.  If you are interested, read "The Mystery of Israel in Ancient Egypt: The Exodus in the Qur'an, the Old Testament, Archaeological Finds, and Historical Sources ".   Here are some quick facts that you should consider.  

-The "Israel Stele" of Merneptah mentions Israel, and it refers to them as a group of people, not a nation.

-Unlike the biblical version, the Quran implies that the group that left with Moses was a rather small group.  The bible claims it was 2-3 million.  

-Unlike the Bible, the Quran says that Moses fled with his people and was not allowed to leave.

-Unlike the Bible, the Quran implies that there was only one Pharaoh, not two.

-Unlike the Bible, the Quran states that God preserved the body of the Pharaoh.  The fact that pharaohs were mummified was lost at the time of prophet Muhammad, so for the Quran to claim that God had somehow preserved the Pharaoh so he could be an example to people is certainly something to consider.  Also, this statement is not found in the Bible, so if Muhammad was just copying it, this was a rather bizarre and accurate statement of him to make.  The Quran mentions many nations and people being destroyed, but the Pharaoh is the only one who is said to have been preserved.

-Hamman is a clear reference to the high priest of Yamānu (also spelled Amon, Amoun, Amen, and rarely Imen or Yamun, Greek Ἄμμων Ammon, and Ἅμμων Hammon).  Note that the Pharaoh consults Hamman for religious matters in the Quran.  He also asks Hamman to make him buildings.  The construction of religious temples was done under the directions of the priests of Amun in ancient Egypt.  The Bible doesn't mention any such figure and the knowledge of the religious courts of ancient Egypt was lost at the time of Muhammad.  In fact most knowledge of the customs and language of ancient Egypt was lost by 300 BCE.

-The Pharaoh asked Hamman to build him a building so he could climb up there and see this God of Moses.  The idea of climbing a high place to speak with gods is in fact what the ancient Egyptians believed.  I've seen this idea mentioned in several documentaries on the History Channel and other channels.

-In the Quran, the Pharaoh keeps saying that he thinks that Moses just wants to drive the people out of the land.  Why does he keep saying this?  It is probably because not too long ago the Hyksos who were a semetic people like Moses had driven the Egyptians out of lower Egypt where the Pharoah now lived.  The Hyksos were defeated and kicked out of Egypt out only a few generations before Ramesses, so he feared that there would again by an invasion by semites.

-The Pharaoh is called Firaun al-awtad, which is often translated as the Pharaoh of might or the Pharah of the stakes, but when read in context, it is probably saying the Pharoah of high/many buildings.   Who was the Pharaoh who was obsessed with building?  Ramesses II.  All the things noted above also point to him being THE pharoah, and yes we do have his body.

-The "Israel Stele" was completed under Ramesses successor Merneptah soon after the death of his father.  In it he claims that the tribe of Israel is destroyed.  Clearly this wasn't the case.  The Pharaoh's would often claim victories when really they had lost.  This is apparent in some of the victories Ramesses II claimed because we also have records from the opposing side (the Hittites).

-The Quran says that the Pharaoh declared himself to be THE God (79:24).  Although Pharoahs were considered divine, very few of them actually made this claim.  As it happens, Ramesses II did declare himself to be God.  The inscription of him declaring this is found at his temple at Abu Simbel.  Again, the Pharaoh is the only one that the Quran says made such a claim and no one could have known this at the time of Muhammad.  

As far as the location of the real Mount Sinai, I think it has been discovered.  Everything is there.  A giant stone altar with engravings of the Egyptian bovine god Apsis, the cave of Elijah, the bitter springs, and even till this day quails descend by it in large groups which is what the Israelites were supposed to have eaten.  It is located in modern day Saudi Arabia.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm

I think the story of the exodus is actually one of the greatest signs that the Quran is indeed divine.  There are so many things in there that Muhammad just could not have known.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Ahmad Bilal on February 20, 2013, 12:28:33 PM
Peace.

This thread hasn't been visited for quite some time, but I just came upon it, and I wanted to expound on some of the points made concerning the Israelites being in ancient Egypt (Khemet)...

-The "Israel Stele" of Merneptah mentions Israel, and it refers to them as a group of people, not a nation.

-Unlike the biblical version, the Quran implies that the group that left with Moses was a rather small group.  The bible claims it was 2-3 million. 

-Unlike the Bible, the Quran says that Moses fled with his people and was not allowed to leave.

-Unlike the Bible, the Quran implies that there was only one Pharaoh, not two.

-Unlike the Bible, the Quran states that God preserved the body of the Pharaoh.  The fact that pharaohs were mummified was lost at the time of prophet Muhammad, so for the Quran to claim that God had somehow preserved the Pharaoh so he could be an example to people is certainly something to consider.  Also, this statement is not found in the Bible, so if Muhammad was just copying it, this was a rather bizarre and accurate statement of him to make.  The Quran mentions many nations and people being destroyed, but the Pharaoh is the only one who is said to have been preserved.

-Hamman is a clear reference to the high priest of Yamānu (also spelled Amon, Amoun, Amen, and rarely Imen or Yamun, Greek Ἄμμων Ammon, and Ἅμμων Hammon).  Note that the Pharaoh consults Hamman for religious matters in the Quran.  He also asks Hamman to make him buildings.  The construction of religious temples was done under the directions of the priests of Amun in ancient Egypt.  The Bible doesn't mention any such figure and the knowledge of the religious courts of ancient Egypt was lost at the time of Muhammad.  In fact most knowledge of the customs and language of ancient Egypt was lost by 300 BCE.

-The Pharaoh asked Hamman to build him a building so he could climb up there and see this God of Moses.  The idea of climbing a high place to speak with gods is in fact what the ancient Egyptians believed.  I've seen this idea mentioned in several documentaries on the History Channel and other channels.

-In the Quran, the Pharaoh keeps saying that he thinks that Moses just wants to drive the people out of the land.  Why does he keep saying this?  It is probably because not too long ago the Hyksos who were a semetic people like Moses had driven the Egyptians out of lower Egypt where the Pharoah now lived.  The Hyksos were defeated and kicked out of Egypt out only a few generations before Ramesses, so he feared that there would again by an invasion by semites.

-The Pharaoh is called Firaun al-awtad, which is often translated as the Pharaoh of might or the Pharah of the stakes, but when read in context, it is probably saying the Pharoah of high/many buildings.   Who was the Pharaoh who was obsessed with building?  Ramesses II.  All the things noted above also point to him being THE pharoah, and yes we do have his body.

-The "Israel Stele" was completed under Ramesses successor Merneptah soon after the death of his father.  In it he claims that the tribe of Israel is destroyed.  Clearly this wasn't the case.  The Pharaoh's would often claim victories when really they had lost.  This is apparent in some of the victories Ramesses II claimed because we also have records from the opposing side (the Hittites).

-The Quran says that the Pharaoh declared himself to be THE God (79:24).  Although Pharoahs were considered divine, very few of them actually made this claim.  As it happens, Ramesses II did declare himself to be God.  The inscription of him declaring this is found at his temple at Abu Simbel.  Again, the Pharaoh is the only one that the Quran says made such a claim and no one could have known this at the time of Muhammad. 

To touch on the points numerically, here are some ideas to consider:

1. The Stele of Merneptah (e.g. "Israel Stele") has been shown by many scholars to be mistranslated. The word "Israel" is never mentioned in the script at all - the word used is "iisii-r-iar", which means 'those exiled because of their sin'. There's no evidence that it's speaking about the nation, or colony, of the Biblical Israel.

2. There's no specific populace mentioned in the Qur'aan. In addition, there's no evidence to support the idea of them being there at all, whether the group was large or small.

3. The concept from point #2 can also be relayed in this point - there's no specific evidence to suggest that the Israelites were actually in Egypt. Therefore, their 'being allowed to leave' is not an issue.

4. Again, there's no specific evidence to suggest that the Israelites were there, making the reference to one pharaoh, rather than two, insignificant.

5. In order to grasp the concept of the Bible saying this specifically, we also have to consider the fact that there's not only one Torah; there are TWO - the written and the oral Torahs. The Oral Torah, compiled in what's now known as the Mishna, specifically mentions God (known therein as "the Lord of Avraham") preserving the body of the pharaoh so that he could be a 'witness to the nations' concerning God's deliverance of the Hebrew people.

6. Where does the Qur'aan state that Hamaan was a "priest of Yamanu"? What 'knowledge of ancient Egypt' is described in the Qur'aan, that Mohammed wouldn't have had knowledge of?

7. The pharaohs of ancient Egyptian (Khemetic) culture did NOT believe in 'climbing up' anywhere to talk to the gods. The central point of religious life in Egypt was what was known as the 'state temple', and the pharaoh was considered the high priest. The people, often viewing him as a god in their midst, were not allowed to enter the temple on holy days with him or to watch him perform his religious rites and rituals. So, the idea of him climbing up a tower to meet (one of) the gods, in plain sight and in public view, is completely contradictory to their established way of life.

8. The Torah relays a similar idea, stating that the pharaoh accuses Moses (or Moshe, as he's called in Hebrew) of trying to 'drive the people out'. Historically, there's no direct evidence to support any of this.

9. Variations of the word "awtaad" are used periodically in the Qur'aan, and NONE of them refer to 'tall buildings'. So, what leads you to this conclusion?

10. As mentioned, the "Israel Sele" doesn't specifically mention this, and this fact is noted by scholars of the text.

11. The idea of a pharaoh referring to himself as "THE" god is not unusual; nearly all of them did this, and this has been well-documented throughout history. The pharaohs often considered themselves incarnations of the gods Ausar (Osiris) and Heru (Horus). Again, this wasn't something that was unknown during the time of Mohammed, and this idea was also propagated throughout the Torah, which Mohammed may have had access to.

Again, these are just points to consider.

Peace,

Ahmad
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: mmmm on February 21, 2013, 01:33:30 PM
 Then We inspired to Moses, "Strike with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain.(26:63)
Nobody mentions this ayat?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: TheJackel on November 05, 2013, 12:12:25 PM
Then We inspired to Moses, "Strike with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain.(26:63)
Nobody mentions this ayat?

This is likely a theme ripped from the Egyptian story of the Golden Lotus.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: telekenixis on February 01, 2014, 09:41:33 PM
Salam,

I must say I do not agree with assertions in this topic.

Firstly, the location of the stories of Moses and Joseph are definitely Egypt.

The Quran uses both the proper noun mis'ra and the indefinite noun mis'ran (2:61) (a city). This distinction suggests that the four uses of the proper noun mis'ra refer to a definite place. Apart from Lexicons and the Bible telling us it is Egypt, we also have internal and historical evidence to suggest the place is in fact Egypt. Fir'awn in 43:51 talks about rivers (plural form, i.e. 3 or more) flowing underneath him, which sounds like the Nile Delta. Historically, the word "m-s-r" or similar have been used in reference to Egypt both within Egypt and by foreigners. There are hieroglyphs which refer to Egypt as "m-s-r" (the pyramid grapheme [024], the hoe grapheme [U7], and the sun rays grapheme [F31]). There are also correspondences between Egyptian and foreign rulers where Egypt is referred to as "m-s-r" or similar (such as the 14th Century BC 'Armana letters').
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarna_letters

With regards to the name fir'awn, there is no evidence that it is NOT the title "Pharaoh". Although a good argument has been put forth, that there is no THE or A before the title, and therefore it is a proper noun, this is not necessarily the case. Firstly, unlike the word malik, the word fir'awn is a specific title for Egyptian sovereigns after the New Kingdom, and cannot be used to describe other sovereigns. I looked in the Quran for other uses of a specific title and found "Son of Mary" as a reference to Jesus. Before someone argues that it is used alongside with Isa or al-Masih, the title is used independently twice (23:50 & 43:57), both times without THE or A. This is internal evidence within the Quran that specific titles do not need THE or A. Also, if you look at the use of the title Pharaoh in the Bible, the title is not used ONCE with THE or A, just like the Quran [I checked all instances in Genesis and Exodus]. The Bible uses the same title (Pharaoh) for the sovereigns in Abraham's time, Joseph's time and Moses' time, thus it wasn't a proper name but in fact a title. The Quran however does not mention an Egyptian sovereign with regards to Abraham, and uses "malik" (king) with regards to Joseph. If the Quran also used the title  fir'awn for the Egyptian sovereign during Joseph's time, there would have been no doubt that it is in fact a title. However, this would have been historically incorrect, since the title "Pharaoh" was not used until the New Kingdom, and before this sovereigns of Egypt were referred to as kings.
"Pharaoh" in T. Wilkinson, The Thames & Hudson Dictionary Of Ancient Egypt, 2005, Thames & Hudson: London, p. 186.

With regards with the argument about "Lord of the Stakes", firstly, the pyramids were built long before every estimate regarding the timeline of the Pharaoh of Moses (usually around 1400 or 1200 BCE). Also the Egyptians were also famous for columns/pillars in their architecture (example: temple complex of Karnak at Thebes). Here is a picture of the famous twin obelisks that are replicated throughout the world:
http://hawkebackpacking.com/images/pictures/africa/egypt_2009/luxor_karnak/egypt_2009_luxor_karnak_14.jpg

Peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: FreedomStands on July 12, 2015, 02:47:05 PM
This is as close to we can get to some "facts" on the matter:

The Jews have long considered the place of Moses in the Bible to be Egypt, which they called Mizr and the Qur'an calls Misr.

The Qur'an uses the term Misr, and does not seem to explicitly correct any misinterpretation the Jews and Christians may have had at that time considering the place to be Egypt, which was stilled called Misr in that day apparently, while other places were called other things.

It really doesn't matter much where Moses was at all probably, just that we take the important lessons from the stories, in that we it is also not important whether it happened this way or that way or at all, since the information is created by God, and all that exists now are the stories where one can maybe learn things, whereas all those events themselves are not in our experience, only the simulations in our imaginations when reading the stories perhaps.

Using this sort of careful analysis, we can maybe re-focus on taking what is of real value from the scriptures, rather than warring about what may be ultimately arbitrary and even is "changeable" by God.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Abu Bruce on February 14, 2016, 07:08:29 AM
https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/ancient-egypt-knew-no-pharaohs/ (https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/ancient-egypt-knew-no-pharaohs/)

Quote
If you think that history is all about the past ?  you?d better think again.If you think the stories the Hebrew Bible had told about ancient Egypt were true ? you?d better think once again.And if you believe that ancient Egypt was ruled by pharaohs ? then you?d better read the next lines...

Dr. Ashraf Ezzat
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 14, 2016, 07:45:46 AM
Contrary to popular belief, Mōsē* (موسى) - the figure most mentioned in the Qurān - was not in Egypt, but ancient Mesopotamia (QA: مصر (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mSr)), i disclose.

* spelled Mōsheh in Aramaic.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Man of Faith on February 14, 2016, 01:19:20 PM
In your opinion yes, hicham9. Although I do agree that he was not in the Egypt that we know.

However, he was much further away from this part of the world. Far far away towards the west.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on February 14, 2016, 01:33:03 PM
Brother MOF, was he in Sweden?

 Or may be he was leading the Vikings?

Where is the "far far  away towards the west" place?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Man of Faith on February 14, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
No, good logic, he was not in Sweden.

I suppose you have to practice on your geographic skill. Sweden is more north than west if you speak about that.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on February 14, 2016, 02:19:15 PM
Peace MOF.

Moses was with Pharaoh.
Pharaoh and Egypt (Masr) go together like a hand and a glove.

Why do I need geography or any kind of skill to know that?

Sometimes I have no idea why we do not throw everything we know about anything and start again.

This sectarians have made up the maps, the history and where Moses was?

However I will still look at your findings to see what is new about where Moses was.

I take it you will tell me where this "far far away to the west place " is?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 14, 2016, 02:32:36 PM
In your opinion yes, hicham9.

Of course, in my book,
as i speak from personal scrutiny !

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it,
but to inquest the matter, objectively [...]

Salute
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Man of Faith on February 14, 2016, 02:45:27 PM
Quote
I take it you will tell me where this "far far away to the west place " is?

It is "over jordan". Moses people traveled for many many years. And they traveled through the Sahara desert.

Quote
Why do I need geography or any kind of skill to know that?

I was being sarcastic in return to your not so serious input as you mentioned Sweden and you obviously know that Sweden is towards the north rather than west.

The traditional Egypt place is a good guess, but it is not far away enough and the scope is way larger.
Title: Meṣr(a)'s Tyrant Pharaoh (frame tale)
Post by: hicham9 on February 19, 2016, 07:45:31 AM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Id4QazXTFs8/VQx7auiVM2I/AAAAAAAAC6w/BMstWgIgEXA/s1600/gilgamesh%2Btyrant.png)

Looks consistent with the qurānic account ? 26:22 (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(26:22:6)); 28:4; &c.
Title: Two-shot of Hāmān and Pherʕōn !!!
Post by: hicham9 on February 21, 2016, 11:11:27 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/35/ba/0d/35ba0d81f6b3f4e44c34bdef2cbdfee4.jpg)

Most likely ಠ_ರೃ
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 21, 2016, 04:37:41 PM
Interesting why is Haman portrayed as a hoofed and horned man ?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 21, 2016, 06:45:48 PM
In the epic, he's said to embody the wild/natural world, being a "wild man" (allegedly raised by animals) who would later come closer to civilization and somehow become "best friends" with the (tyrant) cultured, urban-bred king ! I'd say an authoritative high priest-like figure who claimed supernatural powers (& whatnot).

The priests of ancient Mesopotamia were considered 1st class, and thus possessed a large amount of authority, i was told.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 21, 2016, 08:31:31 PM
What civilization authored these depictions?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 22, 2016, 04:07:02 AM
Thank you for showing interest, brother HP

What civilization authored these depictions?

S (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(20:85:9))umerians (see: Epic of Gilgamesh)

The tyrannical king of Uruk, Gilgamesh, seems to fit well the persona/image of Pherʕōn - the cruel self-proclaimed "god (http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/38/default.htm)" of mṣr as depicted in the Qurān - way better than the alleged mummy of Ramesses II (mainstream op), i daresay ?Though, more scrutiny needs be done here before a final/decisive conclusion can be reached just yet. For, if Gilgamesh is indeed "Pharaoh," then who's Mōsē (in context) ?

I want to draw a graphic novel starring the real Mesopotamian Mōsē (based on the real story/chronology) so badly ಥ_ಥ

SLM
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 23, 2016, 07:34:37 PM
Do you draw Hicham?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 24, 2016, 03:26:23 AM
Yes, i (https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/10363381_975932289083688_6575804381630006549_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=13ecdba6d32380d86facda6fdcc4d07a&oe=5758BA60) do ? thanks to His Absoluteness :)

Should i reckon ALLH's gifts/favors upon me, i'd never be able to count them.

I'm indebted, from head to toe.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 24, 2016, 08:41:50 AM
Hich perhaps you're my long lost brother I've been searching for?

I can draw too! I haven't in a while though... I wanted to be cartoonist when I was younger, I even made a small comic book once of a series. My classmates loved it hahaha

Now I am lucky if I have time to doodle in my notebook   :-\

We are both firm on the Quran, acknowledge His Signs about the creation of the heavens and the earth ("flat" earth) and we both can draw.
What are the chances??

I would like to see some of your work someday!
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 26, 2016, 09:33:08 AM
Hich perhaps you're my long lost brother I've been searching for?

Haha! Maybe ;P

I can draw too! I haven't in a while though... I wanted to be cartoonist when I was younger, I even made a small comic book once of a series. My classmates loved it hahaha. Now I am lucky if I have time to doodle in my notebook   :-\

Interesting!

I've kinda had a similar past ! ... a pattern ?

We are both firm on the Quran, acknowledge His Signs about the creation of the heavens and the earth ("flat" earth)

The planate/stationary Earth is but the very tip (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(78:6:4)) of the iceberg :)

May ALLH increase us in knowledge/gnosis, and grant us salvation/redemption.

True liberty consisteth in man's complete submission to the Will of ALLH.
Kneeling in homage/servitude is only natural/rational --- hybris is out of the question.

and we both can draw.

Everyone can,
they just forgot.

What are the chances??

Qurān 3:179, 10:9, &c. It's fate :)

I would like to see some of your work someday!

The same i say to you  8)

Publicly, or privately ?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 26, 2016, 05:38:31 PM

The same i say to you  8)

Publicly, or privately ?

Either or is fine. I am not an exceptional artist, I am what my father calls a copy-artist hahaha  ;D
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 28, 2016, 07:43:48 AM
Cool (●ヮ●)ノ

A copy-artist can draw what he see (https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/r90/905897_1062601933750056_9206598741627601073_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)s, right ? (https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/192769_200948543271531_2114087_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Drawing from imagin (https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/r270/11700922_1062606333749616_1509417350759063004_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)ation ain't much different ... (https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/56953_158201404212912_6795019_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Ps. Does your father draw too ?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 28, 2016, 08:31:42 AM
Cool (●ヮ●)ノ

A copy-artist can draw what he see (https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/r90/905897_1062601933750056_9206598741627601073_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)s, right ? (https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/192769_200948543271531_2114087_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Drawing from imagin (https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/r270/11700922_1062606333749616_1509417350759063004_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)ation ain't much different ...

(https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/56953_158201404212912_6795019_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Ps. Does your father draw too ?
Wow bro your art is on point!!
I am nowhere near your skill level but I'll show you some of my old work for sure.
How do I link it or show it to you in an efficient way, I am not too techy despite my username haha
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 29, 2016, 06:41:47 AM
Here goes nothing Bro!

Actually a lot of these drawings were done way before I repented, so some are a bit on the dark side lol

http://postimg.org/gallery/2n2apwgbq/ (http://postimg.org/gallery/2n2apwgbq/)
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: hicham9 on February 29, 2016, 08:36:44 AM
http://postimg.org/gallery/2n2apwgbq/ (http://postimg.org/gallery/2n2apwgbq/)

Neat!

The flair is there,
the rest is practice ?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 29, 2016, 09:41:49 AM
Much obliged

God willing I'll start drawing again soon
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: mmkhan on February 29, 2016, 10:50:24 AM
Here goes nothing Bro!

Actually a lot of these drawings were done way before I repented, so some are a bit on the dark side lol

http://postimg.org/gallery/2n2apwgbq/ (http://postimg.org/gallery/2n2apwgbq/)

Peace,

Nice drawings! :yes
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: HP_TECH on February 29, 2016, 01:25:46 PM
Thanks mmkhan
But have you seen Hicham's they are amazing and his coloring!
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Hizbullah on March 01, 2016, 01:42:12 AM
Salam

Quran;02:102 - And they followed what the devils had recited during the Kingdom of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah. And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But they certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.

The verse above tells us that people of Sulaiman, were the descendants of the preexilic people who follow Musa. They were the descendants of the Sumerian, who were fond of magic. The verse tells us that these people, their descendants were from Babylon, Mesopotamia!
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: mmkhan on March 01, 2016, 12:11:40 PM
Thanks mmkhan
But have you seen Hicham's they are amazing and his coloring!

Peace,

You are welcome bro.
Was that drawing by Hicham? It was amazing, mashaAllah. Really cool.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 18, 2020, 08:39:07 AM
Hello

I think moses was in egypt

Please see the following verse : “for you are well aware of those from among you who profaned the Sabbath, whereupon We said unto them, "Be as apes despicable!" - 2:65

For me it was clear that the “apes despicable” refer to what scientists claim to be the common ape ancestor of humans and apes. and the skeletons of these hominids were found in africa ... and the transgressors of the sanbath were told to be depised apes - so what scientists claim as common ancestors are actually transgressors of sabbath (Yhe God also says He left then as deterring punishment in chapter 2 verse 66)

Note how The God uses an adjective to describe the apes whilst in chapter 5 verse 60 The God does not use any adjectives ro describe the apes

Regarding the pharaoh, I think it could perhaps be akhenaton.

According to historians he did not have sons. His wife nefertiti was taken away from all records and lost to history (in the Quran The God tells us she asked to be separated from pharaoh and to be have a house built
in paradise so I am guessing she became a muslim). Also the city of amarna was totally forgotten and destroyed and The God tells us in Quran that He destroyed pharaoh’s works and buildings (surah 7 verse 137)
akhenaton was also a tyrant as he completely changed the religion in egypt and shut down many temples. he me tioned he was son of atun (please check the hymns) so it wasnt really a monotheistic religion.
the city he built amarna was also on the nile river

Please also google the first time the word pharaoh was used and results will come back either for akhenaton or during dynasty he ruled in

please also check this article :

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/was-pharaoh-akhenaten-so-cruel-he-forced-children-build-his-city-amarna-021429

my counter arguments:

pharaoh in Quran says rivers (plural) floweing beneath him whilst amarna had only the nile i think

pharaohs advisors mention that they believed what their fore fathers believed whilst akhenaton changed the religion (albeit perhaps he changed it after a long period)

archeologists say akhenaton ruled only 17 years (they could veeery well be wrong though)

other candidate cities include thonis-heraclion

those were just my thought maybe im wrong

for those who claim persia, i think persia was rather where david and solomon were and zoroastrianism was actually formed from what was sent to david, the Zabor

please share your thoughts :)

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 18, 2020, 10:55:43 AM
What the Qur'an says in the stories about Musa and Yusuf does not match Egypt even by far. Impossible.

Salaam 
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 18, 2020, 11:33:09 AM
What the Qur'an says in the stories about Musa and Yusuf does not match Egypt even by far. Impossible.

Salaam 

please be more specific :) what exactly does the Quran say about Musa and Yusuf that does not fit egypt?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 19, 2020, 03:16:10 AM
Quote
please be more specific :) what exactly does the Quran say about Musa and Yusuf that does not fit egypt?



It took me a long time and effort some time ago to go through all this to my satisfaction. I can remember some specific things of it, but I would have to redo  again to be truly specific. However, I will mention some things of what I remember, but if it really interests you the best hing is that you check for yourself all the mentions and non mentions but related narration concerning it and get your own idea.

First: when you read the episodes of Yusuf and Musa you never are set in a complex, well established and extensive State as was ancient Egypt, particularly at the epoch at which are usually attributed the events with Musa and to a lesser degree with Yusuf.
The word Misr as a proper name is in fact given today to Egypt, but that Misr, or as pronnounced in Arabic, maSr, referred to the country Egypt, is in fact an extension of the name given to the capital, Cairo, proper name Al-Qahira, but which is rarely named so, but always referred to as MaSr. maSr is a common name which denotes the most important city in a land, If you say in Egypt or among egyptians that you are going or descending to maSr, it is Cairo.
That word in the Qur'an is that, the most important town in the land where a person named Fir3awn (arbitrarily transformed into Pharao) ruled at a certain time. It is not a title, but a proper name of a person (with its own meaning), and gramatically it is so handled in the Qur'an. The wife of this man, in the story of Musa is mentionned as So and So's wife and not as the wife of "the" so and so. It is the name of that particular person.
In the story of Yusuf, Yusuf is brought into maSr, the mos imortant town of the land, regardless of which the the land might be. And there he becomes an important servant of the lord of the place.

Later on, when his brothers intend to go back again to where Yusuf has become an important person, their father tells them to enter through different gates, not to enter all of them through the same gate. ¿Can you tell that speaking about a country, and a big country at that? You can only do that with a city or town, which indeed has gates.

Then at one point in the story of Musa, Fir3awn boasts about his importance and how the "rivers" flow underneath his palace. That gives the egyptian setting completely away. When, how did the rivers or streams run underneath any palace in Egypt? Someone mentionned the different branches of the Nile, but the branches of the Nile, never, never to any Egyptian would be streams or rivers, but THE RIVER. May be for a tourist it would be conceivable, but not for anybody not completely ignorant and least of all for an Egyptian.
And that is another thing, why, even when speaking long stretches about Yusuf's and Musa's life in maSr and supposing it were Egypt, never, not a single time a river, simply as river, in singular, and never, not a single time the name is given. Egypt is the Nile, why not mention the Nile. That is in itself an interesting question which might give many hints about the whole Qura'nic text itself.
In fact that boasting of Fir3awn, when we disentangle it from the Bible narrations and stick to the Qur'an only, what it suggests as to the the setting of this maSr is a city on high, and several streams running  it on the land below sorrounding it. May be a mountain setting.

Another one: when escape of the party that escaped with Musa and Haroon in the night was discovered, Fir3awn, the lord of maSr sent recruiters to gather a force to pursue the escaped, who, according to Fir3wan himself as he says in the Qur'an, were but a small party.
That cannot have happenned in Egypt. Would the King Ramses II, to whose kingship is attributed the episode, or any other king of Egypt for that matter, be in need to send recruiters to the towns in order to gather a force to pursue a party? As far as we know, there was no need for that. Egypt had an army, a professional army and, (proffessional police forces also), at that, very capable, and above all, like most everything in ancient Egypt at the time, extremely well organized.

And here comes the trap of taking other sources for the Qur'an, Qur'an does not write about particular proples but rather about events in settings where they can be presented as an illustration of moral and human behavours, for guidance, not for presenting ethnicities or separating peoples.

And it is so much so, that in the Qur'an we are told about the pepople of Musa and the people of the maSr, but we are not told which peoples were they. If you read carefully 28.14-21 you can see how many roundabouts does the text in order to avoid naming a particular people. Never are we given an ethnicity. Only translators mostly put it in, because, in good faith, I guess, think that that is what it means, but the Qur'an, neither there nor anywhere else takes any interest in assigning ethnicities at all. Rather presenting this lesson or that lesson anywhere to give with them universal guidance.

Better, if anybody and read Arabic, go to the original and examine it minutely, to discern what is said and what we assume, even when it is not said or when it is said someting completely different. Translators, unfortunately have already a setting for most or many of the passages of the Qur'an which they have learnt without noticing that they were pre-conditionning the Qur'an.

Not to forget also, that recording things of every tenor, was a parcicular strength of the ancient Egyptian civilisation, writings have been found by the million about anything, but one, merely one, is yet to be found which touches even far anything to do with these themes or "peoples" or characters in history.

Nothing like each one doing her or his own appreciation of Qur'an text, otherwise it may seem as if one is pretending to convince anybody of anything in particular, which is not the case. Nobody, that I know, gets a prcentage. So it is just a matter of wanting to get to the bottom of things.



Salaam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 19, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
Salam Huruf.

I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.

Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 2:74)

Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.

Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.

Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 19, 2020, 01:45:40 PM
Fine, Layth, you believe that, the Qur'an is there for anybody to check. Your arguments to do not seem such.

Salaam
Salam Huruf.

I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.

Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 2:74)

Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.

Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.

Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.


I can't follow you. I can't see see in what way what you say is answering anything I wrote. But never mind, the Qur'an is there for anybody to verify things, besides all the studies and materials in egyptology are also there.
Also obviously everybody does not have to agree on anything.

Salaam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 20, 2020, 09:16:42 AM
salam

I still believe moses was in egypt

The God uses the word qariya when He mentions city as in chapter 42 verse 7 when He tells us about the mother of cities. so why would misr/masr mean city?

regarding the gates of the city well maybe they entered the capital of egypt to meet yusuf

regarding wife of so and so note that even in yusuf narrative we are told the wife of so and so (wife of governor similar in moses narrative we are told wife of pharaoh)

and for the plural of rivers, please note that during narmer (or menes) time which mamy attribute as first pharaoh, the capital was memphis which was at the mouth of the nile delta (many streams flowing from that point)

do you think its a coincidence that the word pharaoh was used for the ruler at moses time and not yusuf time, and that according to historians rulers of egypt were first kings and that at a certain moment in time they were known as pharaohs?

we do not find archeological evidence of the exodus in my opinion because if i remember a verse, The God tells us He has made prophets and messengers of before ahadiths (narratives?)

btw may we assume the exodus was crossing the nile? The God tells them to enter egypt (dont know if before or after “expdus”) so maybe they inherited egypt before crossing a second time the sea?

again look at the verse (chapter 2, verses 65-66) where The God tells the transgressors of the sabbath to be despicable apes. dont you think its what scientist call the human/ape common ancestors whose bones were found in africa? The God clearly uses an adjective to describe what kind of apes He turned the trangressors of sabbath into. He alao mentions they are a deterrent punishment to those of their generation and subsequent generations. and we have found human-ape like fossils! for me that pinpoints to sabbath transgressors being in africa and hence moses narrative being in africa/egypt

on another note, the issue with many people in this site is that they try soo much to be different from “mainstream”. do not try to be different from mainstream just for the sake of being different. we do not know who The God permitted to understand the Quran so rather than trying to be different, try to understand  the Quran as it is.

i think people also overcomplicate things as in ramadan is full moon or salat is not prayer by prostration and bowing (in my opinion it is clear ramadan is a month and salat is prostration (i personally prostrate by completely lying down with chin on floor as well as “traditional prostration” and bowing)

i think ramadan has to do with when the star sirius descends and is closest to earth maybe (surah 53 holds the answer in my opinion) - i.e. perhaps ramadan is dog days of summer. from my understanding the angels guard the stars and sirius being the brightest star we can see is perhaps where gabriel is

if i am wrong along the line i supplicate The God to please forgive me and to please increase my knowledge

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 20, 2020, 11:50:43 AM
When one wants things to be one way one can always make anything fit anything one likes. You may call the river Nile streams when it builds a delta, fine with me. You may make the word misr mean anything you like no matter wht because you have found that naother word in the Qur'an mean this or that, fine. Everything n be twisted to fit one's prejudices. You may put streams in Egypt nd turn fir3awn into something that did not exist in aciente Egypt. There was not such word as pharao but something that is taken to be pharao and which only hasin comon with pharao but one single letter and which does not mean king. But one can always invent something to justify it.                                                                       

Never mind the country of the Nile converted into a land of streams, neve mind that in all the overwhelming abundance of documentation from acient Egyp there is not even a hint of anything like the "hebrews" and the "exodus" or of anything in any way ressembling those stories.

But the most beautiful is that, Ramses II or one of his dinasty sending some recruiters to gather a force to pursue a party of escaped. Is that the same king who kept at bay fierce armies all around? Poor thing havin to gather on the spot a few armed men?

Again, the Qur'a is there. Nobody is getting paid for convincing anybody of anything, and certainly sound egos are in need of anybody talling them "you are right", but certain things, when one can spare the time and the effort, must be said, so that people who have not been exposed to the reality of Qur'an as many who have studied it thoroughly see it, may have a chance to look at it from other points of departure than whose who have been shaped by other long standing conventions.

Salaam



                                     
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 20, 2020, 12:28:15 PM
See in Yusuf 12.51

قَالَ مَا خَطْبُكُنَّ إِذْ رَاوَدتُّنَّ يُوسُفَ عَن نَّفْسِهِ ۚ قُلْنَ حَاشَ لِلَّـهِ مَا عَلِمْنَا عَلَيْهِ مِن سُوءٍ ۚ قَالَتِ امْرَأَتُ الْعَزِيزِ
الْآنَ حَصْحَصَ الْحَقُّ أَنَا رَاوَدتُّهُ عَن نَّفْسِهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَمِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ ﴿٥١

It says imratu-al-aziz   =   wife of THE Aziz   with article
Aziz title


See At taHrim 66.10-11:

 ضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّـهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ ﴿١٠﴾ وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتًا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِن فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿١١﴾

it says
imara'ata luTin imra'a nuH     without article
imara'ata fir3awn          without article

Fir3awn proper name of person




Salaam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 20, 2020, 12:28:50 PM
salam

i am not trying to make things fit. it is just clear to me that moses was in egypt. perhaps i am wrong, i never said i know for a fact.

so you say it is not egypt, so what is it then? what would make it not egypt but some other place? and what is this other place?

btw also in english and french we say the king’s wife  (la femme du roi) and we also say pharaoh’s wife and not the pharaoh’s wife (la femme dE (of) pharaon and la femme dU (of the) pharaon are both correct). it doenst mean pharaoh is the name of a person.

btw just a side note, is it a coincidence that akhenaton was “erased” from history by the succeeding egyptian pharaohs and city he built amarna was layed to ruin? and also a coincidence that his wife nefertiti was erased from recorded history and no one knows for sure what happened to her or why she was erased? (remember in the Quran The God tells us pharaoh’s wife believed in The God) is it also a coincidence that she and akhenaton only had daughters?
im just guessing here it could very well not be akhenaton

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 20, 2020, 02:33:23 PM
The wife of fir3awn says the Qur'an, the same as the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut,
But the wife of THE aziz,

It does not say the wife of the Fir3awn, no article before fir3awn  just like the wife of Nuh without article, and wife of Lut, no article with the name of the husband

But article with the name of the title,

the wife of THE aziz



Salaam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 20, 2020, 03:40:53 PM
salam

my point is it is not grammatically incorrect to say fir3awn rather than The fir3awn

so saying fir3awn only is okay to mean pharaoh. no need to say “the fir3awn” to mean a title. the rulers of egypt are called fir3awn

anyways, where was moses then ? :)

peace


Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 20, 2020, 11:25:26 PM
Can you give any instances of the same thing without the article from the Qur'an? Where is it said that the article is correct and still mean the same as without the article?  Articles have a purpose, there are not there or are there for nothing.

As to where it was, there were long debates int he forum as it being in Southwestern Arabian Paninsula, Yemen and surroundings, where really there are streams and there were indeed many kingdoms or domains. But I have no interest in convincing anybody of anything, again. whoever is interested should verify her or himself for her or his own benefit.


Salaam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 21, 2020, 12:55:30 AM
Salam,

Pharaoh being a title or the name of the first person who used it does not make any difference.

Julius Ceaser (proper name) was the first to adopt his name as a title, and all that followed were named "Ceaser".

We know that "Al Firoun" (the family of Pharaoh) are mentioned several times in the Qur'an and that God is very angry with them all (He condemns them to the worst punishment in Hell 40:46).

Nothing in the Quran contradicts the argument that Egypt (Nile area) is the same Egypt mentioned by God.



Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: huruf on May 21, 2020, 02:48:29 AM
Everything in the Qur'an contradicts Musa and Yusuf being in Egypt. But nobody is bound to agree either on one thing or the oher.

However, a streams and one river, I still find the Nile to miss, and very much. Specially when it is a matter in which pretended Egypt and egyptians are involved. Unbelievable. Streams under but no Nile.

The day Egyptians recover some self respect will recover also their past marred by an undocumented attribution unde th eguise of religion. Because again, nothing, but nothing, not even a small piece has been found corroborating anything of that.

The idea of the King of Egypt at its most powerful sending some recruiters to gather a force to pursue some people...

Salaam
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 21, 2020, 05:01:09 AM
I don't see the contradictions you keep bringing up. Let's break it down into some smaller discussion points:

Q. Can one river spawn many rivers?

A. Yes, according to 2:74, one point (in this case a rock with water gushing through it) may spawn forth many rivers (anhaar).

Q. Is ancient Egypt a land of many such rivers?

A. Yes, looking at the ancient kingdom which was based out of Memphis, the kingdom was situated on the Nile Delta which had many rivers flowing around/in it.

Q. Can Pharaoh be a name and a title?

A. Yes, it can be the name of the person who first took this mantle (which is why the Quran refers to the extended family of Pharaoh as "Al" Firawn).

Q. Did ancient Egypt undergo a "drought" as mentioned in the story of Joseph?

A. Yes, according to a rock inscription, ancient Egypt went through a 7 year drought  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela).

Q. Would the Pharaoh call for people to be recruited to pursue a rag-tag group of commoners?

A. Not sure what the point of this question is, but if the Quran says it happened (26:53), then it must have. Pharaoh would have been a broken man by this time after years of plagues infested the land (7:130) and he and his people would have been completely broken and exhausted.

Q. Has any Egyptian king's body been found preserved after all these centuries (in fulfillment of 10:92)?

A. Yes, the body of Ramsees II was found mummified (having lived till old age) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II

I would finally conclude with a link to an interesting article "Who Was Imhotep?" which speaks of Prophet Joseph being the famous Egyptian Vizier Imhotep:

 https://free-minds.org/who-was-imhotep

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 21, 2020, 10:47:56 AM
salam

I do not see contradictions either in moses being in egypt

if you (huruf) say it is not egypt, what is it then?

we have to becareful not to start interpreting and being different from mainstream just for the sake of being different.

we should not let satan fool us. it is not because many of us refute hadiths etc and believe that only the Quran (and the other Books The God metions in Quran such as Injeel) is from The God and is complete that we are necessarily guided by The God. remember, The God does what He wants, and He guides whom He wants.

people claiming to follow only the Quran start interpeting things as in salat is not prostration (salat is sujud an prostration and supplicating The God for forgiveness mercy and guidance etc..) or ramadan is only a couple of days or masjid al Haram is not a physical place etc i mean come on people stop innovating

and for those who claim 19 magic number i mean come on how different are you from the other sects. you took away verses form the Quran without any right. That clearly shows that you do not believe the Quran to be preserved by The God. and seriously, its pretty obvious (to me) that 19 refers to angels who guard(?) the fire (not hell but the fire) - and i believe that hell is earth and the 7 skies/universes (The God says something like 7 heavens and the likes of earth so perhaps also 7 earths and remember that hell has 7 abwab (doorways, gates, segments?))

anyways my point is people should stop interpeting and all just for the sake of being different.

dont let satan fool you. shirk is not just openly worshipping idols or others but following the devil and falling into his traps. the devil also makes people think what they do is great whilst it is disobeying The God (following idols and disobeying The God such as in not giving charity or maintaining your prayers etc and pehaps innovating!)

Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - indeed, he is to you a clear enemy, And that you worship Me? This is a straight path. - (chapter 36, verses 60 and 61)

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 21, 2020, 01:27:37 PM
Dear TF,

Yes and no to what you have said.

We should always be weary of the devil diverting us and letting us create new idols, yet, at the same time, we are commanded by 17:36 not to uphold what we have not been able to verify.

There is no absolute wrong idea until we have allowed all avenues of an idea to be explored and debated - the truth can withstand extended scrutiny.

For example, sujood is physical in some instances when done by humans in the Quran. However, it is not physical when the stars or trees or even angels do it (hence the idea has merit and debate).

Also, fasting is both for a number of days and a month - depending on the reader seeing 2 separate fasts or 1 single fast in the verses.

The prophet is called Ahmed, but also Mohammed - which allows a deeper look at the historic character and where he was from.

Abraham left part of his progeny at the restricted House to guide people, yet Lot is from Abraham’s progeny (so is this about Lot or Ismail or Isaac)?

God refers to the House, the ancient House, and the restricted House...are they the same?

God refers to Bakka and Mecca...are they the same?

God refers to the restricted Tenple and the farthest Temple...are they the same?

God calls all people to pilgrimage, yet the restricted Temple is closed off to idolaters?

The list goes on, but the idea is that everything is debatable as long as we don’t  create idols of these ideas and put them above God.

We only fail if we stop challenging our own understanding and cease to search for truth.

This life is about serving God and only God.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 21, 2020, 04:25:46 PM
salam layth

hope you are doing well

my opinions:

there are not many ways, there is one way in sens that ramadan is either some days or a month, prayer is either physical or not etc. we should strive to find it yes, but not by interpeting where there should be no interpretation. i believe the Quran is to be taken at face value.

1) prayer - yes existence submits to The God: the moon is in an orbit and its phases are layed out and it does other things like regulate tides, the sun lightens the earth is in an orbit and sends energy to earth, the trees grow and provide oxygen and others things etc etc all creation follows the order and purpose that it has been created for. humans have been given the choice and we should obey The God. within those commands is to prostrate physically. The God mentions specific salats (evening (sunset to susk and throughout the night) and fajr) and on the day of gathering.

if salat were to just obey Him, why name the salats? are we not supposed to obey Him all the time? The God also says to bow down with those who bow (surah 2 verse 43)

The God also tells us to not be loud or too quiet in our prayers but in between, and to say what is said in verse 111 of surah 17. He also tells us those who seek forgiveness before dawn. so for me its clear, prayer is to bow and fall to our faces and supplicate Him for forgiveness and guidance

2) abraham mentions that The God gave him isaac and ishmael (and jacob as well perhaps as grandson). he never mentions that The God gave him lot. The God tells us that abaraham says he put of his progeny in the restricted temple to pray, and there is also a verse in the Quran where The God tells us that ishmael used to push his kin to prayer. so for me it was clear ishmael was in the restricted temple and not lot (if i remember well there is a verse where The God mentions that there is peace in the restricted temple whilst lot’s city was destroyed although maybe city destroyed but temple remained intact)

3) the farthest mosque for me could maybe mean limi of the tree of the outmost boundary (limit of the tree ie something like the cosmic tree that all religions have example yggdrasil) i think The God permitted the prophets and messengers to go to the outmost boundary near which there is paradise (but they have not seen paradise i believe) in order to witness the creation and strengthen their beliefs.

i am not yet knowledgeable about the restricted or ancient temple issue and mecca bakka (although i believe it is not mecca in saudi arabia but perhaps the monastery in petra) once i forge an understanding on that matter ill revert to you.

3) The God says whoever witnesses the month let him fast IT, not fast a part of it or within it or whatever an answer for ramadan is in surah 53. and from surah 106 i think hajj is in summer and winter so ramadan is other than that. (unless restricted months are consecutive and hajj is in a restricted month)

4) regarding ahmed and mohammed i do not have an opinion on it yet apart perhaps in area and language of jesus (hebrew? aramaic?) mohammed is mentioned as ahmed just like yusuf is jospeh

5) i am not knowledgeable yet about the issue with all mankind invited to restricted temple but not idolators, but why would idolators go to the restricted temple that is dedicated to The God?

to conlclude, in my opinion the Quran should be read as a whole and taken at face value. example when The God says He made pigs and apes from humans well He literally did that (that is why apes and pigs are very similar to humans and why pork is forbidden) so we should maybe read the Quran and stop interpreting left and right

i may be wrong allll along the line lol but i take the Quran at face value

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 21, 2020, 09:39:38 PM
Peace...
I do agree with Huruf with certain points what she claims... Coz it was her choice after perceiving ... I don't like to call Egypt since there is no Egypt in Quran.. let's keep as Misr (however it is pronounced)..  But I don't agree with her that Misr being only a city... Misr according to Quran is a well planned country which has a city and and surrounded with rivers and agriculture and farming... A perfect nation...
If you go through all the occurences of Misr in Quran that you can't deny that unless blinded.. Misr was called as Kingdom as well...

43:51 " And Pharaoh called out among his people; he said, "O my people, does not the kingdom of Misr (Mulk  Misr)belong to me, and these rivers flowing beneath me; then do you not see?"
No need to call kingdom of city.. Unless one thinks so.. Even verse 2:61 is a great nation which produces all fruits..

King pharoa can't simply rule a huge City.. He needs the resources reaching to his city.. That's not inside the city but outside... So it's a massive kingdom ... Being the ruling place in a huge city.. That's Misr... So it can merely mean a massive city as well as the whole kingdom that massive city belongs to... Kings were not ruling only cities... They rule nations of kingdoms..

Read carefully  all Misr verses within the context..

Next point is location in our current world...

I don't think it matters much like it matters where is masjid Al haram or ancient house or where Muhamed lived... Coz people claim Mohamed lived in current Day makka so they keep circumnavigate or rather rounding allegedly called ancient house.  So that's worth a research than musa. 

Okay any how.. Question is before knowing, Was Musa from Misr, better to know who was Musa?
Can anyone say who was He? That's it...

One thing to note is Rome is Rome still Misr is Misr .... Can anyone change the location of Rome?  Then why to change Misr..
Musa was everywhere... wasn't he? 
** He is one of those who fought to deliver Children of Israel...so he has connection with Israel.. Where is Israel?  Fair question right...
** Musa was in Midean at least 8 years... Where was Midean?  Not far from where he escaped... Isn't it? At least outside pharoa's control.. Coz old man called musa "you are safe here"
** And musa was in Misr 10"87..
So did he live only in Misr..?

Aren't these places all close-by that Musa could manageby..
If anyone claim it is Yemen current days the southern peninsula of Arabia then all above three locations should be in very close proximity to Yemen..
Before Quran many glaring books were revealed.. So all those should be concerned with Yemen..
But Romans were in Yemen and remnants are still there though not in Makka . But previous scripture holders have no concerns of Yemen but areas of Jordan Israel lebonan  etc. Area.. Why they neglected Yemen if their ancestors connected to Yemen..

No more comments.. There is truth.. Perceive it...

@ TF.. I won't agree with your emotions.. Let people search and debate.. Don't worry God will guide whoever deserves.. If guided they cannot have chosen the wrong path... No guidance with wrong path..
God knows the guided ones.. You can't take quran at face value in everything.. . Explore and let God guide if God wills and if He doesn't then that's the end of right path..

Unless you know truth without doubt argue with it till you get convinced by others view.. Afterall you are totally in a confused state as per what you have written above.. Then why you try to stop others being exploring and presenting their view.. Right and wrong is always clear to the guided ones and God knows them..
Peace...
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Wakas on May 21, 2020, 11:06:34 PM
peace Layth,

Nice to see you posting again.


God refers to the House, the ancient House, and the restricted House...are they the same?

God refers to the restricted Tenple and the farthest Temple...are they the same?

God calls all people to pilgrimage, yet the restricted Temple is closed off to idolaters?


Have you read these articles:

What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

What is "al hajj" according to The Quran?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2020, 04:59:09 AM
Peace All.
Those who are doing the rounds with subjects from Qoran will notice that some subjects will stay interpreted differently depending on where the "logic / understanding/search/. of the individual.." lies.
 Bringing "proofs" can also be pointless, because the past can never be brought with it. So it is each to their proof/fact/...

As for history ,well what can one say ,except there is some history that is agreed on by many but still disputed by others. The devil can sometimes be in the details. And this is where we differ. Can humans tell lies? Of course they can. Can humans distort the truth? Of course they can.. Can history be written and controlled by the "Victors" ? Of course it can.... And so on.

So how are we to check/ use 17:36 on many subjects and issues of the past? Why did Qoran only deal with certain people and sometimes left some details out? One can only say Qoran is not a history book but a message. I will come to my point at the end of this post.

For example if one tried to search Moses history and came up to this:
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm

Do they believe all of it? Is there any distortions/?...etc.

One can use Qoran to chreck, some details agree but others differ...Then we move on to another side of the same story like for example:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/moses-0012411

And so forth....One can compare /analyse...But still little issues will arise. So what is the solution that gets us to the truth?

This is where I go back to my earlier point that Qoran is a message not a history book first and formost.
What is the message that will unite all its students?
 I say it is the call to "Sirat Al Mustaqueem". Qoran has come to unite us on this very important path so that we can live in peace and harmony with each other ,now in our present time.

As for other subjects ,like this one, it does not matter an iota who is right or wrong. The lesson of Moses will give us the motivation to better our lives not where he was or the exact location of the people and place.

Thise who have the truth should be to their own satisfaction,not others. They can only share it ,not ram it down throats..
Brothers and sisters, discuss by all means, but remain united and do not divide because of issues that do not matter.
Yes of course bring in your views, you are all welcome.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 22, 2020, 06:06:24 AM
salam jkhan

i am not saying people should not debate. on the contrary i think we most definately should

what i am saying is that we should not start interpreting and trying to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different (thats my debate lol)

example prayer The God me tions specific prayers and tells us not to be too loud or quiet. He also tells us to bow with those who bow. why start saying salat is not physical and interpreting and all. is it not salat is physical non?

or ramadan, He tells us to fast IT, so is it not clear it is the month?

or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.

i am not confused i have my opinions i just do not want to say things that could misguide in case i am wrong and as such i say that i could be wrong lol

so yeah let us definately debate i am just saying (debating :) ) we should not innovate just to be different especially where the words are clear





peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Wakas on May 22, 2020, 10:43:08 AM


or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.


It seems you are equating al masjid al haram and al bayt. What is your evidence for that?

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 22, 2020, 11:19:57 AM
salam wakas

perhaps the house is a generic term and the masjid al Haram is the name of the house. non?

in any case for me its a bit obvious the place is physical
all i am saying is i feel like people here try sooo hard to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Wakas on May 22, 2020, 01:53:47 PM
peace tf,

I have seen many claim it should be understood how it is commonly understood (i.e. same as your view it seems) but they are silent when it comes to answering some basic questions I have asked over the years.
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

In fact I do not recall anyone who has answered the issues/questions in the above articles. Some answer bits here and there but that's about it. On this forum I have created threads for each article so you can read what others say in them.
:
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2020, 04:23:12 PM
peace tutti_frutti.
My understaniding from Qoran is that Abraham was given a task with instructions from GOD to take part of his family (  Likely Ishmael and family) to a physical place and build a sanctuary for GOD Alone commemoration for all monotheists from Al Naas:

"Our Lord, I have settled part of my family in this plantless/Arrid valley, at Your -Baytica Al Muharram- Sacred House. Our Lord, they are to observe the Salat, so let throngs of people converge upon them, and provide for them all kinds of fruits, that they may be appreciative.
رَبَّنا إِنّى أَسكَنتُ مِن ذُرِّيَّتى بِوادٍ غَيرِ ذى زَرعٍ عِندَ بَيتِكَ المُحَرَّمِ رَبَّنا لِيُقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ فَاجعَل أَفـِٔدَةً مِنَ النّاسِ تَهوى إِلَيهِم وَارزُقهُم مِنَ الثَّمَرٰتِ لَعَلَّهُم يَشكُرونَ

This Abraham and Ishmael did somewhere as these verses explain further:

Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of God, and from the -Masjid Al Haram-Sacred Masjid that we designated for all the people - be they natives or visitors - and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ كَفَروا وَيَصُدّونَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ وَالمَسجِدِ الحَرامِ الَّذى جَعَلنٰهُ لِلنّاسِ سَواءً العٰكِفُ فيهِ وَالبادِ وَمَن يُرِد فيهِ بِإِلحادٍ بِظُلمٍ نُذِقهُ مِن عَذابٍ أَليمٍ

 Abraham was following GOD s instructions

We appointed Abraham to establish the Beyt( Shrine): "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My Beyt- (shrine) for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
وَإِذ بَوَّأنا لِإِبرٰهيمَ مَكانَ البَيتِ أَن لا تُشرِك بى شَيـًٔا وَطَهِّر بَيتِىَ لِلطّائِفينَ وَالقائِمينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجودِ
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj . They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
وَأَذِّن فِى النّاسِ بِالحَجِّ يَأتوكَ رِجالًا وَعَلىٰ كُلِّ ضامِرٍ يَأتينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَميقٍ
They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate God's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."
لِيَشهَدوا مَنٰفِعَ لَهُم وَيَذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ فى أَيّامٍ مَعلومٰتٍ عَلىٰ ما رَزَقَهُم مِن بَهيمَةِ الأَنعٰمِ فَكُلوا مِنها وَأَطعِمُوا البائِسَ الفَقيرَ
They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the-Beyt Al Atik-( ancient shrine).
ثُمَّ ليَقضوا تَفَثَهُم وَليوفوا نُذورَهُم وَليَطَّوَّفوا بِالبَيتِ العَتيقِ
Those who reverence the rites decreed by God have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم حُرُمٰتِ اللَّهِ فَهُوَ خَيرٌ لَهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَأُحِلَّت لَكُمُ الأَنعٰمُ إِلّا ما يُتلىٰ عَلَيكُم فَاجتَنِبُوا الرِّجسَ مِنَ الأَوثٰنِ وَاجتَنِبوا قَولَ الزّورِ
You shall maintain your devotion absolutely to God alone. Anyone who sets up any idol beside God is like one who fell from the sky, then gets snatched up by vultures, or blown away by the wind into a deep ravine.
حُنَفاءَ لِلَّهِ غَيرَ مُشرِكينَ بِهِ وَمَن يُشرِك بِاللَّهِ فَكَأَنَّما خَرَّ مِنَ السَّماءِ فَتَخطَفُهُ الطَّيرُ أَو تَهوى بِهِ الرّيحُ فى مَكانٍ سَحيقٍ
Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by God demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم شَعٰئِرَ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّها مِن تَقوَى القُلوبِ

The questions that various members are debating are:
Is this beyt  a physical or abstract  place or both?
If physical, where is it?
What is Hajj?
...etc.
For me it is clear this is a phydical place where people live or visit, commemorate GOD and gather together in a specific GOD Alone sacred Masjid to remember GOD and give thanks for what He provided and spend some specific days doing this as a rite.
There may be some abstract/spiritual meaning as well and benefit to the soul in doing this..
 GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 22, 2020, 11:46:20 PM
Salam TF,

Quote

i am not saying people should not debate. on the contrary i think we most definately should

what i am saying is that we should not start interpreting and trying to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different (thats my debate lol)

Why did you assume that people here debate ideas so they can be different from the mainstream?

The mainstream of people do not even believe in God (see 12:103), while the mainstream of those who believe are idolaters (See 12:106)

Quote
example prayer The God mentions specific prayers and tells us not to be too loud or quiet. He also tells us to bow with those who bow. why start saying salat is not physical and interpreting and all. is it not salat is physical non?

I have never said that. I simply point out that we must be open to people who have different views in-case we have made a mistake in our understanding. For example, if you see Salat as a physical "prayer", then how will you reconcile 9:5 which tells us that if the idolaters/mushrikeen uphold the Salat, then we are to no longer fight them?

Will you force a person to pray when the Quran gives full freedom of worship and expression?

It is this lack of understanding or challenging tradition meanings that has created satanic "Islamic" nations that beat people to attend prayer and cut off hands and heads...

Quote
or ramadan, He tells us to fast IT, so is it not clear it is the month?

And did you read the verses before this verse (see 2:183-184) which talks about people fasting "for a limited number of days" as was decreed for "those before"?

You have assumed that its a full month based on a) tradition, b) not noticing the other verses on the subject.

I can argue here that "Ramadhan" in 2:185 is a separate fast from 2:183-184. I can also argue that the "limited number of days" occurs within the month of Ramadhan (just like the days of Hajj occur within the 4 restricted months)...

Quote
or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.

I did not say it was not physical - but you have made an assumption (like the traditionalists) that Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of this restricted Temple (actually, they say the Kaaba/Bayt and not the Temple). Was there only one Bayt? If so, then why does God refer to the Bayt in Bakka as the "first" (see 3:96).

Quote
i am not confused i have my opinions i just do not want to say things that could misguide in case i am wrong and as such i say that i could be wrong lol

so yeah let us definately debate i am just saying (debating :) ) we should not innovate just to be different especially where the words are clear

Actually, you are saying things that misguide because you maybe repeating the falsehoods that have been taught without subjecting them to the scrutiny of 17:36.

Also, I would remind that the Quran is not a normal textbook...It can totally misguide those who view it through distorted eyes - look at the mess that has been made by "Islamic" states based on their mishmash of what they think the Quran says.

We must seek God to unlock our hearts and minds when reading His words (see 6:25), and we must always remember that the Quran does have verses which are clear, but others which require deeper study (see 3:7)
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 23, 2020, 12:01:39 AM
peace Layth,

Nice to see you posting again.

Have you read these articles:

What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

What is "al hajj" according to The Quran?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Salam Wakas.

Great to see you brother...

Must be the lockdown...I have better energy to write again :)

I have had a look at the 2 links.

The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.

As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 23, 2020, 01:19:24 AM
Peace TF..

So your debate is MAINSTREAM.. Who are they?  Why you worry about them as if they have founded the truth.. Why people should go hand in hand with so called mainstream.. Why you decided so?  Do you think they are guided so that we should discard views of others and not differentiate from them so we would be guided aright... Or is it just for the sake of keeping peace by having to go inline with them..

Next point..  Salat..
Yes salat is physical as well Salat has many other meaning..
Why you worry about those who say Salat is not prayer?   Just debate within Quran that Salat is prayer and it is physical and verbal ... 'Bow with those who bow... ' .. Why do you say it is Salat.. Does QURAN teaches you so.. If so bring evidence?  Get clear picture of raakiun by verse 5:55 OR any other rakiun verses before respond to me...

Next concern.. Ramadhan and fasting and one month...
You seems to be agreeing one month as per yasummuhu (fast it)..
Fine fast it.. BUT
Is it must to fast anyway?
Do we not go to Janna if we don't fast... Is there any warning from God so..
If there is no month called ramadhan among Arabs, which month would you fast?  Why you think that God asked us to fast in Arabic month...  While God has not mentioned any names for months in Quran .. While He has restricted 04 months from the day He created... So are those restricted months only Arabic.. Or common..
Fasting prescribed as it was prescribed to those before you... So were they fasting in calender month Arabic... Or they were fasting as it was prescribed for them.. Or do they need to leave all those practices and fast according to Arabic month ramadhan.. While we are told prescribed for you fasting as those before you..
Isn't the verse 2:187 addressing mainly previous people as they were wronging themselves by doing sex in the nights of fasting,  while fasting only prescribed to the people of Quran with that very verse..
At the time of revelation of Quran there were scriptures revealed by God and fully preserved.. "Bring Torah and recite to me" is useless unless it was preserved..(people may sell the verses for petty price, but scriptures were in its real form) So,  the instructions to fast would have been in Torah and Injeel unless God won't call as it prescribed for earlier people.. .  Why they should leave the instructions written in them to Quran.. It's not alteration verses... it's  continuation.. Fast as they fasted... Not a verse like what is prohibited foods jews made allowed by QURAN verses.. Then Torah or Injeel verse goes invalid and quran verse is valid.. But not in the case of fasting.. . Coz they were fasting and these were asked to fast first time..
How do you ensure to yourself that this is the month God ordered to fast or just fast coz everyone fasts?  So for practicing God's book we need human culture and their respective months to be verified.. . I don't think so.. God gives instructions with what He created and not what human created..

I agree with Layth most of the points .. It makes sense within Quran..
Taje example Haj.. God says Haj is in well known months.. Not mentioned any Arabic month by name..
2:197 "The Pilgrimage is in MONTHS WELL-KNOWN; whoso undertakes the duty of Pilgrimage IN THEM shall not go in to his womenfolk nor indulge in ungodliness and disputing in the Pilgrimage. Whatever good you do, God knows it. And take provision; but the best provision is godfearing, so fear you Me, men possessed of minds"

If you take above verse only as base,  it would literally mean one should do haj complete well known months not for days.. But if you read other verses it clearly indicates haj is only few days within those months.. .. But only within those months.. Anyone can start haj at any time within those months.. Same for me yasummuhu is.. It doesn't mean all should start beginning of the month and complete end of the month..
Three days is very clear with verse 2:184 during the heated(ramadhan shahr (month / full cycle of moon)..
So compare 2:197 with 2:185 .. Does both order for all believers to do haj continuously throughout well known months and fast whole month.. Simply No.. First 2:183 gives order of fasting is prescribed.. Second.. 2:184 orders how many days.. Third.. 2:185 indicates when to fast..
Fourth.. 2:187 .. How to fast and restrictions..

Are you referring masjid Al haram or ancient house. ? Both physical places...  If there is a new thread we can discuss and debate  .

Yes.. You are confused as long as you use the phrase "in case I am wrong"...so there is possibility that you are wrong than right... All I can say come up with strong mind that you are right.. Debate with it.. Find out where your RIGHT minded approach stands.. . You will learn you are right or wrong in the end if the understandings of others did or didn't convince you after fair debate.. ..

Your last point "innovation"... If the person who debate or present his views for innovation manifestly,  then he or she will end up as it is.. But if a person find there is something wrong in what majority accepts then he is not innovating but he brings his fair point with logic.. He may end up right or wrong ultimately in people's mind.. For instance what Huruf presented.. It was not innovation but her research.. That's all.. Innovation has only oneway oriented goal.. Misguidance.. Knowingly or unknowingly... Mostly with knowledge.. Difference of opinion with clean heart is not innovation..
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 23, 2020, 07:20:52 AM
salam wakas

thank you for your links, ill read them :)

salam good logic

i agree with you that it is a physical place and it is to thank The God for everything including animals He created for humankind

salam layth

i assume its to be different cause goong through variois posts on this forun i see that people debate evry single thing and change everything from prayer no being prostration to satan being the human mind and not an entety enemy to mankind to masjid Al Haram not physical to gog & magog being nuclear energy to ramadan being only some days etc etc

we cannot judge who truly believes in The God or not, only The God knows

i am not saying you said prayer is not physical i was just replying to the posts i have seen on other threads on the forum and i am only giving my opinion that it is physical. if it were not physical, why would we be told by The God to do wudu when we rise to prayer in chapter 5, verse 6

for “limited number of days”, well i read that part as “fixed number of days” and not limited. also limited does not mean anything btw. and let us assume it is limited, well limited number of days meaning limited to one month perhaps? it is quite clear that He tells us the Quran was sent in the month of ramadan and we should fast IT. it is a fixed number of days. nothing to do with traditions as i dont believe in traditions (including circumcision, slaughtering of sheep for 3eid etc etc naa i dont believe in that)

yes i assumed it is the same. The God tells abraham that people will come there from everywhere and to take care of the place for people who will to come to it and pray (ch 22, v26) and in chaoter 2, verse 196 i understood that pilgrimage is fo masjid Al Haram. so as abraham was told people will come form everywhere and then we are told about hajj and mention of masjid Al Haram in ch2 v196, yeah for me they are the same. for me the restricted temple is the house built by anraham and ishamel. unless pilgrimage is to masjid Al Haram and al bayt is just extra (which i doubt) look at surah 106 where we are told people will travel in winter snd summer snd to let them worship the Lord of “this house” so in my understanding they are the same and hajj is in winter and summer

regarding issue of the first house and second house i am not yet knowledgeable about that :)

maybe i am wrong. well maybe you are wrong and misguiding by saying things for example that ramadan is only ten days and laylat al Qadr is in winter (you assume too much in saying that btw) others who claim salat is not physical also misguide. so what does misguide mean? should we not share our opinions?

salam jkhan

i am not concerned anout mainstream. again you miss the point. i am saying we should not start trying to be different for the sake of being different thats all. and whatever we debate we should use verses as proofs and not start being complicated and innovating.

salat : euh yeah salat is prostrating. we are given specific times for salat as well as wudu and we are told how to perform it (i cld share verses if you want) and to maintain our prayers

ramadan yeah it is a must it was decreed on us like on those before us. Jannah or not for fasting it or not, well The God does what He wants. i never said anything regarding that matter. i dont really understand your other arguments abou ramadan. in any case, i never said i agree that ramadan is the month that has been fixed in islamic calendar. on the contrary i think it very well could not be the case. i believe the answer lies in surah 53, and has to do with the star sirius when it was at its highest horizon and then came closest to earth (for me that is laylat Al Qadr)

why do you assume ramadan is three days? what in 2, 184 makes you say three days?again assumptions assumptions assumption
fast IT is very clear to me to fast the month

ancient house for me is the generic name and masjid Al Haram is its name.

no i cannot say i am right. i only try. remember there is a verse where The God tells us those who think they are guided by they are not. so we should not assume just cause we believe that hadiths sunnah etc are fabrications and adhere to Quran only means we are guided. The God does what He wants.

peace :)
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 23, 2020, 08:21:48 AM
Dear TF,

Quote
i assume its to be different cause goong through variois posts on this forum i see that people debate every single thing and change everything from prayer no being prostration to satan being the human mind and not an entety enemy to mankind to masjid Al Haram not physical to gog & magog being nuclear energy to ramadan being only some days etc etc

This forum is over a decade old. I'm sure you'll find lots of stuff from the many people that have come through. This website is open to all ideas as long as they can be backed-up with some Quranic reference - we do not mock anyone's ideas as long as the discussion is civilized and polite.

After all, what made the early Muslims go from simple nomads and farmers to become the leaders of the world in science, astronomy, mathematics, etc. was their understanding that the Quran removed all shackles from the mind and allowed them to imagine and strive...

Quote
i am not saying you said prayer is not physical i was just replying to the posts i have seen on other threads on the forum and i am only giving my opinion that it is physical. if it were not physical, why would we be told by The God to do wudu when we rise to prayer in chapter 5, verse 6

I would venture that the people who said that were finding 9:5 difficult to reconcile. After all, when we study the Quran, we need to take ALL verses on any particular subject into account, else the conclusion will be flawed.

For example: the Sunnis rely heavily on "obey God and obey the messenger" to advocate for the credibility of Hadith as a form of law (Quran is God, Hadith is the messenger)...Yet, had they done the job of collecting all verses/data on the subject, then they would have seen that the Quran qualifies the statement later on by saying "whoever has obeyed the messenger has obeyed God" (4:80), meaning that God & the messenger in the area of obedience are not mutually exclusive.

Quote
for “limited number of days”, well i read that part as “fixed number of days” and not limited. also limited does not mean anything btw. and let us assume it is limited, well limited number of days meaning limited to one month perhaps? it is quite clear that He tells us the Quran was sent in the month of ramadan and we should fast IT. it is a fixed number of days. nothing to do with traditions as i dont believe in traditions (including circumcision, slaughtering of sheep for 3eid etc etc naa i dont believe in that)

Ayaam Madoodat = Limited Days (see its use in 2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24).

The word "madooda" is used in Arabic to typically denote a number from 3-10 and no more. As you can see, the pilgrimage of 3 days in 2:203 uses the same exact terminology as 2:184.

Before you fast forward to 2:185 which speaks of the month of Ramadhan, ask yourself: what is the fast that the previous people of the Book have been upholding or exists in their books as God says it does?

Have you ever heard of a 30 day fast with the Jews or Christians?

Do they have a 3-10 day fast that they upheld in the past?

Anyway, the subject is not to turn this thread into a discussion on fasting...It is merely to point out that you are rushing to conclusions (wrong ones) without using 17:36.

Even when the Quran was revealed, God tells the Prophet "not to hasten his tongue with it" because it is God who will explain it (75:16-19)

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yes i assumed it is the same. The God tells abraham that people will come there from everywhere and to take care of the place for people who will to come to it and pray (ch 22, v26) and in chaoter 2, verse 196 i understood that pilgrimage is fo masjid Al Haram. so as abraham was told people will come form everywhere and then we are told about hajj and mention of masjid Al Haram in ch2 v196, yeah for me they are the same. for me the restricted temple is the house built by anraham and ishamel. unless pilgrimage is to masjid Al Haram and al bayt is just extra (which i doubt) look at surah 106 where we are told people will travel in winter snd summer snd to let them worship the Lord of “this house” so in my understanding they are the same and hajj is in winter and summer

The pilgrimage is to the House (Al-Bayt). The Masjid (whether the restricted Temple or any other Temple) is either another construct or the area surrounding the Bayt/House.

Quote
maybe i am wrong. well maybe you are wrong and misguiding by saying things for example that ramadan is only ten days and laylat al Qadr is in winter (you assume too much in saying that btw) others who claim salat is not physical also misguide. so what does misguide mean? should we not share our opinions?

Why have you been given eyes, ears, and a mind if you will surrender them to others whom the devil may have misguided?

Would you rather stand before God having followed people who were misguided, or, would you rather stand before God having done your own research and thought process and only upheld what you were comfortable having verified?

"The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence." (39:18)

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 23, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
salam layth

yes obviously this is a place to share ideas. i am definatly not mocking anyone. i dont even know if what i am saying is correct. i am just giving my opinion

the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?

for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day)
why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etc

I want to add: people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer

regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))
(i am speaking in general regarding prayer and not about you layth)

you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?

what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?

again i am not following any group or wtver i am speaking from what i understand of the Quran

and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Wuran or saying or me tioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).

my point is we simply cannot say who is a true believer and who is not and who is guided and who is not. we do not know, only The God knows.

peace :)
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 23, 2020, 10:50:32 AM
Peace tutti_frutti.

Everyone of us would love to have a private reveletion from GOD , or in this day and age a private PM to explain every detail we have doubt about or even just basic meaning of certain words. But this is not going to happen.Why?

 Because GOD keeps doing that every few generation through a messenger:
Look for example what GOD said to this messenger:
إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُم مَّيِّتُو ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عِندَ رَبِّكُمْ تَخْتَصِمُونَ

You are gping to die and they are going to die(those that you brought the message to),then you will be arguing with each other on the day of judgement!!!. That means even followers of any present messenger have issues with his message and they disagree with some of it!!

It is no wonder we are the same. Different views/meanings/ways/...sects upon sects of the same book!!

Why would GOD keep repeating this fact to us in Qoran:
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءُوهَا فُتِحَتْ أَبْوَابُهَا وَقَالَ لَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَا أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُونَ عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ رَبِّكُمْ وَيُنذِرُونَكُمْ لِقَاءَ يَوْمِكُمْ هَـٰذَا ۚ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَـٰكِنْ حَقَّتْ كَلِمَةُ الْعَذَابِ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ

Did no messengers from among your came to you with my message? Why would we say Yes of course!!!? Or is GOD lying to us?
Or are we going to say to GOD I understood it my way? I thought I was cleverer than the messenger? I ridiculed the messenger and my logic/cleverness was better and made more sense to me?

We all have the same Qoran, does our differences not show us that GOD intended to send a messenger after Mohammed to clarify certain things? Who was it, is it or is going to be?

Of course at the end of our bickering all one can say is :
قُلْ يَا قَوْمِ اعْمَلُوا عَلَىٰ مَكَانَتِكُمْ إِنِّي عَامِلٌ ۖ فَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ

You work for your destiny my people and I work for mine Then GOD will judge on that day and show us our difference of opinions and views.
 اللَّـهُمَّ فَاطِرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ عَالِمَ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ أَنتَ تَحْكُمُ بَيْنَ عِبَادِكَ فِي مَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُون

Still all is not lost, simlpy because GOD is forever with us and we should turn to His help and guidance in all our needs and doubts.
Keep up your study and search for your truth.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 23, 2020, 11:17:12 AM
Dear TF,

Quote
the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?

I have not said that month/shar is the full moon, nor have I denied the statement that you are to "fast it". I merely pointed out that you have skipped an important part of the story by ignoring 2:183-184, and that will always lead to a distorted understanding (with your posts, the fast begins in 2:185 and we can pretend 183-184 do not even exist?!)

Is the fast of 182-183 and the fast of 185 the same thing?

Is Ramadhan a recurring month (the night of destiny in it is equated to 1,000 months)?

When was Ramadhan during the time of revelation - was it summer or winter or spring or autumn?

What does it mean "those who witness the month" - are not all months "witnessed"?

Quote
for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day) why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etc

Why have you called Al Salat "prayer"? Prayer is "Duaa" and can happen at any time with no requirements for ritual ablution or voice (like the men to pray to God when they thought they will drown on the ship and He saves them).

Quote
I want to add: people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer

Again, you are mixing prayer with Al Salat. People can and should remember God frequently when they rise and when they sleep and when they commit to something...None of that is Al Salat.

Does God need you to be clean when you pray? Does He smell you? Also, why the audible voice, does He need to hear you?

Quote
regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))

I only pointed out fasting because the Quran  specifically mentioned that it was decreed "as it was decreed to those before you".

Quote
you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?

I carry out what I find to be defendable, and leave open the subjects that still need clarity/depth. You have made assumptions from the start that this is correct and that is wrong - I am simply trying to point out that you are skipping a bunch of stuff on each of these subjects - that is rushing.

Quote
what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?

The Bayt/House (original) was revealed by God and its foundations raised by Abraham and Ismail. Our obligation is to make pilgrimage to the House.

The Masjid (restricted or otherwise) only gets mention during the story/life of Mohammed - meaning it could be a separate structure or the structure that encompassed the Bayt/House.


Quote
and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Quran or saying or mentioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).

Yes, that is called "shirk" and is an unforgivable offence if maintained until death. All good works done under this state are nullified.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Wakas on May 23, 2020, 01:00:56 PM

The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.

As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?

Not a physical place, as that is the weaker of the options.

The article explains in detail why and also highlights issues/problems for various understandings, including a physical place.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 23, 2020, 02:54:17 PM
salam layth

the answer to when ramadan is is definately in the Quran as we are told the Quran is detailed and has all information. i think it is a month. for me it was clear for you something else was clear lol

what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?

also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)

The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it

so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?

why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?

what do you mean I have made assumptions? are you not making assumptions too??

shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.

salam wakas

i still think masjid Al Haram is physical

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 24, 2020, 05:45:38 AM
Salam TF,

Quote
what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?

also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)

The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it

so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?

I am asking these questions so you will reflect on the mater beyond the surface understanding.

If you need to be clean (be it water or clean soil), then it means you are dealing with other people - hence the command to dress well in the Temples.

What is the purpose of gathering with these people at specific times (dawn/dusk/funeral)? If it is to pray to God, then we have already proven that you can pray to God under any circumstances and on your own (the example of Jonah or the people who were about to drown in the ship comes to mind).

If its not to "pray" then what is the gathering for? And, why should idolaters/mushrikeen uphold such gatherings?

Quote
why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?

Bayt/House is what Abraham was shown and from which the foundation was raised and the pilgrimage was called (see 22:26, 2:127, 3:97), so there is nothing that I need to show you beyond these verses to prove that the pilgrimage is to House/Bayt.

Now, if you want to make the Temple/Masjid and the Bayt/House to be one in the same, you are required to provide evidence (of which there is none).

Quote
shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.

Shirk is to associate anything/anyone with God. It is the opposite of serving "God Alone" (see 39:45, 40:12)

Also, we know that many believers in God commit Shirk without knowing they are doing so (see 12:106).

Hadith is actually worse than Shirk as it associates man-made laws with the laws of God and even overrides the laws of God in some cases (such as allowing no will to be made for relatives or stoning married adulterers to death, etc..).

We know with certainty that those who rule by other than what God has revealed are the "Kafiroon/Zalimoon/Fasiqoon (see 5:44-49).

So, will you still defend those whom God calls Kafiroon/Zalimoon/Fasiqoon and say "we can't know", or, will you be truthful and call things for what they are as God has called them...
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 24, 2020, 08:08:33 AM
salam layth

i am confused. i do not understand your position on wudu and prayer. what do you think prayer and salat is?? im interested in your point of view

also wudu is not to pray solely in gatherings. wudu is even to pray on you own. The God says do not rise to prayer before wudu. there is no specification about gathering or not

dont the following verses (chapter, verse) show that masjid Al Haram is where pilgrimage is to be made?
(2:196) (5:2) (9:19) (22:25) (48:25) (48:27)

shirk is obeying satan and outcast devil assigned to every human. it is the devil that tells humans to reject The God and make up idols and not pray and not do charity etc etc

Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - indeed, he is to you a clear enemy - And that you worship Me? This is a straight path. (36, 60-61)

And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, The God had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." (14,22)

O my father, do not worship Satan. Indeed Satan has ever been, to the Most Merciful, disobedient. (19,44) although abraham’s people worship idols, abraham tells them to not worship satan

shirk is disobeying The God and following the devils (they whisper to humans to reject The God and disobey) and by obeying them people put them as partners (this results in people believing things like trinity or multiple gods and other forms of polytheism etc)

i am not defending anyone. my point is we cannot say so and so is a kafir. we have no right to say that. we ourselves do not know if we are guided.

for example maybe your and other people definition of ramadan is wrong (btw i have nooo idea why some people say it is ten days or 3 days, its just conjecture and using unrelated verses) maybe mine and other people (1 month) is wrong. maybe we dont know how to pray etc etc no one knows if they are truly guided by The God. we can only hope for The God’s mercy, guidance and forgiveness of our sins.

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 24, 2020, 09:00:03 AM
Peace..
I am afraid it goes well and truly off topic..

@ Layth.. TF
I don't see any difference of what both says about Shirk OR mushrikun... You both bringing the Quran verses to denote shirk and what is the argument here then.. ... Both are right about Shirk..
Take this example as well..

6:121 "And eat not of that over which God's Name has not been mentioned; it is ungodliness. The Satans inspire their friends to dispute with you; if you obey them, you are Idolaters(mushriqun)" ...no need further elaboration by anyone coz QURAN is manifest who can be mushrik and how and why...

But I don't agree with Layth additionally  saying hadith is worse than Shirk.. I don't think you have any support for that.. Of course hadith following leaving Quran and replacing quran is worse but why worse than shirk is question  mark.. Action of leaving Quran to another is by getting deceived to Satan... So criteria meets with what is shirk.. Not worse is extra..

@ TF

You totally not getting what Layth saying... To know kafir you don't need science or God never ordered not to call qafir as qafir... How to call qafir then.. Mumin?  Utterly ridiculous...
109:01 "Say, "O disbelievers (Qafirun ) "...
If God orders to say why you stop it..  To call some qafir, one should know the qafir..
It's not difficult to find the qafir if you live with them... And if you know them what they do. 
There are so many examples in Quran.. Such as qafir,  mushrikun,  etc.. Mumin knows them.. Unless you can't kill them Whereever you find them.. Don't get upset.. It was an order during war... And war situation.. So.. Unless you know them you will only kill mumin..
Just know them if you are believer..  Treat them well as long as they don't harm you... And be friend with them.. They are Human.. Ibrahim's  father was not a Muslim or mumin.. So he only could have been a qafir.  ...ibrahim prayed for him... We are human.. Live as human..

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 24, 2020, 09:33:38 AM
salam jkhan

i dont think you get my point

we cant say those who uphold hadith are kafreen and those Quran only people are not kafreen

example:

if ramadan is a month and prayer is physical and to be done every evening and fajr, those who dont fast or fast only ten or three days and dont do prayers evening and fajr, are they guided? or did they fall into trap of satan and thus kafreen

same for those who fast a month and pray every evening and night and fajr, what if that is incorrect, are they guided or they fell into satan’s trap?

i am not talking about the openly atheists or polytheists etc etc  i am talking about those who believe and uphold hadith, sunnah and traditions

i do not think people should boast about being guided and the others not guided and kafreen

we do not know who is guided and who is not

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 24, 2020, 10:51:26 AM
Thank you Jkhan.

You are correct - it is perhaps clearer to coin such behavior as Shirk and not Kufur.

Also, I agree 100% with your observation that the Quranic laws that address the Kufaar or Munafiqeen becomes completely meaningless unless such groups can be identified.

Dear TF,

I would not worry much about people who have taken partners with God...Their recompense will be with God.

If someone wants to associate partners with God (be they saints or prophets or men or jinn, etc.) then they have deal with the consequences and our job is to merely remind them that there is no compromise/substitute to God alone.

The only path acceptable to God is submission, and anything other than submission will not be accepted by Him (3:85).
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 24, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
salam layth

indeed i agree :)

And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims." (ch 41, verse 33)

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 24, 2020, 07:32:12 PM
salam jkhan

i dont think you get my point

we cant say those who uphold hadith are kafreen and those Quran only people are not kafreen

example:

if ramadan is a month and prayer is physical and to be done every evening and fajr, those who dont fast or fast only ten or three days and dont do prayers evening and fajr, are they guided? or did they fall into trap of satan and thus kafreen

same for those who fast a month and pray every evening and night and fajr, what if that is incorrect, are they guided or they fell into satan’s trap?

i am not talking about the openly atheists or polytheists etc etc  i am talking about those who believe and uphold hadith, sunnah and traditions

i do not think people should boast about being guided and the others not guided and kafreen

we do not know who is guided and who is not

peace

Salam TF..

You don't get me.. You don't get me is very common in a debate.. So that we can change what is stated previously... But in your case it's too much.. As if you have written in alien language..
Dear Brother or Sister.. I get you what you have written crystal clearly... I get you what you change with much transperancy... I skipped many things from your thread unanswered coz you twist.. And further Layth was answering you to the best..
Why I skipped is coz you used the word MAINSTREAM in your thread and later you started saying "I don't get you" and OMITED Mainstream from the wording and adjusted.. This is intentional... Your intention is clear.. You are prejudiced and cannot get out of the shackles.. Either with knowledge or without.. May be you don't perceive it..

But I only came up to clarify what Layth said and your claim of qafir cannot be identified.. Just anyone who deny or belie what's revealed is Disveliever.. That's qafir... Or disbeliever is not only common to Quran but in general.. For example I am a qafir in existence of ghost..

If you want to show affection to those who follow hadith.. Show.. No harm.. But your affection won't change the sunna of God.. God is furious on those who reject His verses... That's why He promises to punish in hell fire those who reject His verses...
If you think those who follow hadith dont reject God's verses then no need to worry.. They are believers who don't reject God's verses and practice them..
But I do think they do reject God's verses in black and white.. Quran for them is just mere symbol of their religion.. But for practices of hadith is their lifeline.. To the extent without hadith NO ISLAM.. Simply they can't live without hadith..
But for believers quran is guidance and everything even they take it right or wrong they depend on it solely.. ... 
Among those who follow hadith, Can anyone be a Muslim if they don't circumcise...  Just think practically. The one who is not circumcised is qafir with the belief of Hadith..
What if the story is different in the eyes of God... Who is qafir then? Who gave this authority to them... Just a shameless practice of circumcision demoralizing God's perfect design.. Most of all making it religious and moreover threshold to becoming a Muslim with sheding the piece of flesh.. Simply barbaric...

Simply and finally.. Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..
Don't compare believer with them.. Coz believer has a weapon.. He can always say to God on the day of ressurection I took only your verses for guidance.  Forgive me if I took it wrong with my lack of knowledge... But followers of hadith has no explanation... Coz they too another book..
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 24, 2020, 09:45:12 PM
Peace jkhan.
 This is a trap that anyone can fall into, quote:

Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..

Also it should be:
Those who reject GOD s words DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY...Be it anyone including you ,me and everyone else....Knowingly....

Which by the way can only be known by GOD  if it is kept to themselves unless they are openly opposing GOD and creating Fassad(wickedness on earth.

Never mind thinking others are following hadiths, when we ae all capable of following our own made up hadiths or someone elses aware or unaware ,thinking we are the ones guided!!!

.Yet we argue "our truth" as if  it is GOD s truth and we have monopoly of GOD s truth. If we are so sure of our truth, then the best way is to use it to better our ways and improve our character by treating everyone as "innocent" unless proven guilty/admitting guilt openly.

Those who believe ,believe for themseves. A big part of our belief is to leave the judgement to GOD.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 25, 2020, 03:13:03 AM
Peace jkhan.
 This is a trap that anyone can fall into, quote:

Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..

Also it should be:
Those who reject GOD s words DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY...Be it anyone including you ,me and everyone else....Knowingly....

Which by the way can only be known by GOD  if it is kept to themselves unless they are openly opposing GOD and creating Fassad(wickedness on earth.

Never mind thinking others are following hadiths, when we ae all capable of following our own made up hadiths or someone elses aware or unaware ,thinking we are the ones guided!!!

.Yet we argue "our truth" as if  it is GOD s truth and we have monopoly of GOD s truth. If we are so sure of our truth, then the best way is to use it to better our ways and improve our character by treating everyone as "innocent" unless proven guilty/admitting guilt openly.

Those who believe ,believe for themseves. A big part of our belief is to leave the judgement to GOD.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

Peace brother good logic...
No one is exempted... All are in a trial...we are on a mission.. Until his or her last moment.. It can break into pieces at any time and lose everything if we dont keep looking for guidance.. .. 
That's why believer begs for pardon... Almost every day.. Even on every action which concerns. For example what Dawud did after his decision on Shepard ..  He was not sure he was right or wrong .. but he did ..so best way to ask for forgiveness... Asking pardon is a weapon in this life for believers when we are not sure and when we wrong unknown and by mistake etc..

I don't know what difference it makes DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY... Anyhow rejectors are of various type.. Rejecting under any circumstances or any manner is rejection...even wittingly or unwittingly.. All rejection..
How one rejects a matter for example God or His verses..
1 .. Rejecting even before knowing it.. Not even try to know it..not at all interested in truth..
2... Rejecting out of pride..
3.. Rejecting after very well knowing..
4...Rejecting not being able to adapt to truth..
5... Rejecting to remain in belief of what the ancestors left..
6... Rejecting to nullify the truth..
7... Rejecting so that deception and lie prevail..
8.... Rejecting coz living in full of doubt...
9... Rejecting coz they found majority rejecting ...
10... Rejecting out of envious, dirty mind on believers..
11... Rejecting with over confidence..
12... Rejecting when failing in the life and trial... When life not going well for one.
13... Rejecting coz always the path of Satan decorated to him..
14... Rejecting coz God never guided them.. And their hearts are locked for guidance and truth...
15... Rejecting coz they feel all these are ancient innovation of nonsensical people... And all teach same nonsense..
16 ... Rejecting coz they feel they are better equipped and educated and feels self sufficient...

You can name...

Somehow all rejectors... Kafir..
If a believer doesn't know he is a believer that's far from reality... Everyone should judge themselves where they stand... If we don't know about ourself first then it is pointless living.  23:1-10... Even 2:177 is a good example to self judge.. Many a verse spread throughout QURAN.. We should be able to judge ourself... But.. God will judge us our action our truthfulness.. ... Believers will always know about their belief in fact throughout life span. Even at the time of death believers will know they are believers.. Even on the day of ressurection they will remain with confidence and with good news.. Will God treat believers same as disbelievers..
True believer knows he is a believer.. That's incontrovertible.. For example.. The one who hid his faith to king Pharaoh.. Was he thinking he was a disbeliever.. And why he should think so.. Why he should say to people "come I will show you right path ".. Who is he? Why people should  believe him.. Why God says to marry your children to those who believe.. 

48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the DISBELIEVERS, merciful among themselves...."
how do they know disbelievers in the first place.. to be forceful against them..

4:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the DISBELIEVERS as allies instead of the BELIEVERS. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"
Look at above verse.. First judge self... Then find who is Disbeliver then know your fellow Believers... Then take action according to verse.. That's what those believers would have done..

If one claim he doesn't know who the DISBELIVERS are then even though he lives with them,  then he may not be a believer in the first place.. That's my understanding.. ..
For all these you shouldn't deny God's verses..  Our actions shouldn't deny God's verses.


Knowing disbeliever is easier coz he is much exposed by what he does.. Harder part is to know Munafiq... That's a big challenge... If you read verses where Munafiq appears... Munafiq are believers.. But they will be exposed.. The weakness in the belief turn a believer to Munafiq..
9:101 "And among those around you of the a'rab are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment"

Strange isn't it? But slowly but surely they will be exposed.. It's not something that can be hidden.. Their dirty mind under the blanket of believer cannot survive for long...



Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 25, 2020, 11:44:56 AM
salam jkhan

you still dont get what i am saying lol

you (Quran only people) think because you believe in Quran only that you are guided and that your line of defense is you followed the Quran only

it is not because we followed Quran only that we are necessarily guided. The God does what He wants. Remember the verse where we are told told people think they are guided by they are not?

The God knows who He guides. not you not me not anyone else knows

Do not go assuming this person or that is a kafir and you are guided just cause you uphold Quran only.

many who still believe in hadith give charity all the time, spend their nights and dawns praying, avoid vain talk, spend with their lives and goods in The God’s name etc etc

you (as in Quran alone people) spend your nights and dawns in prayer and Quran recitation? many Quran alone people dont even think prayer is physical

you went to pilgrimage wherever you think it might be? many Quran alone people dont even think the masjid is physical while people who uphold hadith spend their wealths to go pilgrimage for The God
etc etc

using the i followed Quran alone as defense in day of judgement... you realize that if The God wants we will not even speak or be given opportunity to defend our case right? the best thing to do is to strive in our faith of The God and make worship of The God our passion, and never assume we are guided cause we do not know

so dont go assuming Quran only people are guided just cause we uphold Quran only. maybe we understood nothing in the Book

peace

Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 25, 2020, 03:05:21 PM
Peace jkhan.
We find ourselves disagreeing about "disbelievers". You think you know them?

For me, there are more important things to do in life than worry about someone s  point of view about disbelievers or religion or disbelievers whoever they are!
-Saariou Ila Maghfiratin Min Rabbikum- Racing each other to good deeds , good morals and helping others(including disbelievers,if they require it) should be our aim according to Qoran.

 Or are you going to disagree again? Is the main/important  message of Qoran not clear? here is a summary:

Whatever we  do for our salvation, we  do it to "feed our soul"/"connect to our Creator"/Redeem ourselves "/"Prepare ourselves to  meet Him"...
The instructions in Qoran are GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else on how to grow our "soul" to be able to withstand GOD s presence on the day of the "meeting".
It is GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else  to "follow His path( good conduct and good morals and total loyalty to Him Alone) and look after our "soul"the same or even better than we are looking after our "body". Do not neglect the "spiritual self":

"The well fed souls-Heavyweights- will succeed. The starving souls- the light weights- will lose!!!!!!
It is for our own good. Each to save their own neck.
Do not worry about the "disbelievers", it is between them and the Creator!!!!!
Hope we agree now.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 25, 2020, 08:29:39 PM

you still dont get what i am saying lol



I wish you don't say this quote on the day of ressurection... 'O God you dont get me, i did follow Quran" ...
Remember 25:30 carefully... Messenger was not worried about Hadith...but merely Quran...



you (Quran only people) think because you believe in Quran only that you are guided and that your line of defense is you followed the Quran only

it is not because we followed Quran only that we are necessarily guided. The God does what He wants. Remember the verse where we are told told people think they are guided by they are not?



I don't believe only in Quran... i believe as per 2:285  The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.""

Yes I do follow Quran only... That's what My God has ordered me to do in His book Quran...Coz I am not born before Quran...If you feel you are not necessarily guided while following Quran only, then beg to God to guide you to the straight path... Following Quran is criteria, Guiding and misguiding is God's Business..Intention is key... If ones intention is to get the guidance and only guidance then having to get the misguidance from the Lord He begged for guidance is shear piece of Joke... Those who are misguided definitely their inner intention was not guidance but lip service... God knows them... Don't worry about them..




The God knows who He guides. not you not me not anyone else knows


Ofcourse God ONLY knows whomE He guides... Any doubt? Any issue? Did i ever say that someone else also has the capacity to guide... Just even messengers or believers can pass the message but no one can guide anyone...

But don't forget it is not alien thing to know who is guided... if guided they are believers... I know within my capacity who are believers when i live with them for sometime... Coz quran has basic how one can be a believer... if you dont have capacity to know... it's not my issue..




Do not go assuming this person or that is a kafir and you are guided just cause you uphold Quran only.



You are blinded to say about me and to order me... I don't go after each and everyone he is believer and he is disbeliever.... You think, i am a paid spy.. lol..
I am not living in a strange world not to know my collegues, my friends, my familiy members... They themselves accept what they believe and what they don't ... And we can see what they do as well to verify... All one has to do is compare what they do with Quran and its message...
For example... Why Ibrahim was worried about his father.... How Ibrahim knew he is guided and his father is not.... what right ibrahim has to say to his father you are going on wrong path.... Just use your wits dude... know where you live and with whome you live unless you are lost, how can you know about others..




many who still believe in hadith give charity all the time, spend their nights and dawns praying, avoid vain talk, spend with their lives and goods in The God’s name etc etc



Their destiny is in God's Hand... But it is not difficult to know who is believer or disbeliever.... if one himself he is a believer... even the destiny of believer is in God's hand... it doesnt mean we cannot know the disbeliever... All religious people giving charity .... spend night in prayers of their way, all good people avoid vain talk... For example my Hindu friend... I hope he is better charactor than me... coz i know my limit... the most charitable he is.... But he worship idols calling they are gods... and he claims they 330 millons of gods .. He says he cant change his way... and he finds that's right.... Now as a friend what i will understand ... Can i call him a believer in God just coz he is charitable....

My ancestors and relatives... very religious... women are face covered... wonderful peacful charactors... unbelievable people... love to be with them as human... but if i say who authorized you to follow Hadith.... my goodness... it is even sin to say like that brother... our prophet told follow hadith.... not shia hadith but sunni hadith.... without hadith you are not complete....When i ask what do follow according to Quran? Can you give me a single example...honestly they dont have answer what they follow according to Quran.... Simply they don't follow anything according to quran... that's why they are speachless.. but they feel they are right... Who am i to guide them... But don't i know they have discarded quran in place of hadith....if i don't know i should be a fool...



you (as in Quran alone people) spend your nights and dawns in prayer and Quran recitation? many Quran alone people dont even think prayer is physical



I am not quran alone people... It is your whim that makes you to call me as such.... I am a believer...If you can call, call it ... if you can't.. just leave it... But don't call me quran alone people... There is no such thing...

Hope God guide you and me and all....Guidance is something we always should beg for from God....But believer cannot be believer today and change tomorrow... Thank you for reading...
i wonder even if you say i don't get you...
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 25, 2020, 09:10:42 PM

We find ourselves disagreeing about "disbelievers". 1.You think you know them?

2..For me, there are more important things to do in life than worry about someone s  point of view about disbelievers or religion or disbelievers whoever they are!
-Saariou Ila Maghfiratin Min Rabbikum- Racing each other to good deeds , good morals and helping others(including disbelievers,if they require it) should be our aim according to Qoran.


 3...Or are you going to disagree again? Is the main/important  message of Qoran not clear? here is a summary:

4. Whatever we  do for our salvation, we  do it to "feed our soul"/"connect to our Creator"/Redeem ourselves "/"Prepare ourselves to  meet Him"...
The instructions in Qoran are GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else on how to grow our "soul" to be able to withstand GOD s presence on the day of the "meeting".
It is GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else  to "follow His path( good conduct and good morals and total loyalty to Him Alone) and look after our "soul"the same or even better than we are looking after our "body". Do not neglect the "spiritual self":

"The well fed souls-Heavyweights- will succeed. The starving souls- the light weights- will lose!!!!!!
5 .It is for our own good. Each to save their own neck.
6.Do not worry about the "disbelievers", it is between them and the Creator!!!!!
[b7..]Hope we agree now.[/b]
GOD bless you.
Peace.


1.. Yes i know them... as long as they they live with me with what they do and what they practice and what they claim and what they reject is obvoius....

2.. I wish you can help me... i have too much important things to do as well....lol...I am not worried about those who disbelieve... do you think i am worried about them... What benefit for me by worrying about them... I only pray for them for their guidance and forgiveness from God.. God will he would..

3... Disagree what ?   important message of quran for me is clear... if you have any doubt and if you wish you may request...God willing i will explain..

4... about my soul i will look after it...

5.. Yes... Agree... now what is the issue with that?

6... as i said earlier... i won't worry about them... do you?

7.. There is nothing to agree with you... just follow quran if you wish, so do i...that's all...

God bless you and me and all and guide us always.. Ensure not to die without being Muslim (Surrenderer)... Now don't say that also we don't know..

Do you know you are a muslim or not, since you dont know you are believer or not? I know i am a muslim.. hope you too..lol

coz..
3:102 "O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims"...
See the difference here... God advises the believers (Mumin) not to die without being Muslim ... So one should first know he is a believer in God.. and before his death he has to ensure that he is not going to die without being a Muslim...
If one cannot know this simple verse... it is his destiny...

additioinally...
I advise both of you...
Reade verse 02:2-17 carefully and meticulously each and every verse.... You would never have argued with me on this very topic, had you got it.... Believers know believers and disbelievers know believers as well.


Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 26, 2020, 05:45:02 AM
Salam,

Quote
you (Quran only people) think because you believe in Quran only that you are guided and that your line of defense is you followed the Quran only

I hope you aren't referring to people here as "Quran Only". We are Muslims/Submitters as God has named the people who follow His system. Quran only, from the name of it, seems to be some sick Quran worshiping sect.

Quote
Do not go assuming this person or that is a kafir and you are guided just cause you uphold Quran only.

I honestly don't get why people are scared of using terms that God uses...I have seen this "political correctness" go on for many years now, where suddenly there are no Kafirs or Mushriks or Munafiqs or Muslims or Mumins - we are all one big soup of "only God can judge!".

No wonder Muslims are lost...

For example, God teaches us that people who say "trinity" or "God is Jesus" are "Kufaar" (see 5:73-73).

So, you get a simple question from a Christian asking you "what does the Quran say about Christianity?"

You can be truthful and say "anyone who says trinity or Jesus is God is considered a rejecter/kaffir and his destiny is not so great if he does not repent" - while this answer maybe shocking, it provides clarity to the person asking based on very specific and clear instructions from God.

Alternatively, you can follow the "politically correct" route and say "I don't know, his judgement is with God, but if he did good work, then I'm sure he will be fine"

One response is specific and truthful and may help the person to find the correct path - while the other is vague and deceitful and will most likely cause both the person asking and the person responding to be held accountable for their stupidity.

Quote
many who still believe in hadith give charity all the time, spend their nights and dawns praying, avoid vain talk, spend with their lives and goods in The God’s name etc etc

So what? If they committed shirk then their deeds are all for nothing...

39:65 And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers.

In-fact, the first commandment for the "Straight Path" is not to set-up partners with God (6:151).

Quote
using the i followed Quran alone as defense in day of judgement... you realize that if The God wants we will not even speak or be given opportunity to defend our case right? the best thing to do is to strive in our faith of The God and make worship of The God our passion, and never assume we are guided cause we do not know

Your posts are clearly smart enough to tell me you get this whole scam that has been going on and you know the truth from the falsehood...Yet, something is holding you back (the threads of culture/society/family?!). Your example reminds me of Abraham who tried his best to see that his father was still "OK" even though he knew it was a lost cause 60:4.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 26, 2020, 09:10:18 AM

I honestly don't get why people are scared of using terms that God uses...I have seen this "political correctness" go on for many years now, where suddenly there are no Kafirs or Mushriks or Munafiqs or Muslims or Mumins - we are all one big soup of "only God can judge!".

No wonder Muslims are lost...

For example, God teaches us that people who say "trinity" or "God is Jesus" are "Kufaar" (see 5:73-73).

So, you get a simple question from a Christian asking you "what does the Quran say about Christianity?"

You can be truthful and say "anyone who says trinity or Jesus is God is considered a rejecter/kaffir and his destiny is not so great if he does not repent" - while this answer maybe shocking, it provides clarity to the person asking based on very specific and clear instructions from God.

Alternatively, you can follow the "politically correct" route and say "I don't know, his judgement is with God, but if he did good work, then I'm sure he will be fine"

One response is specific and truthful and may help the person to find the correct path - while the other is vague and deceitful and will most likely cause both the person asking and the person responding to be held accountable for their stupidity.


Peace Layth..

That's a a perfect response... I wonder why a believer doesn't know he is believer and doest know the disbeliever...  Seriously sometging wrong with them..

I don't want to give any more example since your answer is perfect... But still I present the following verse...

3:149 "O you who have BELIEVED, if you obey those who DISBELIEVE, they will turn you back on your heels, and you will [then] become losers"

I wish those who say they don't know whether they are guided or believrs and not know who the Disbelivers are.. Pls rethink...
How would you obey a disbeliever whome you don't know he is disbeliever...  How would you keep away from the disbeliever from obeying him unless you know you are a Believer.. .. Just know the self and you will know the disbeliever to not to obey them...
If you still say you don't know the disbeliever then you will definitely obey them... Those who obey them will be losers...
Peace..
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 26, 2020, 09:56:05 AM
salam

so believer/submitter is defined to be someone who believes in The God and upholds Quran only whilst hadith followers are disbelievers?

you need to understand what shirk means. you think shirk is openly being polytheistic. well no.

shirk is obeying the devil rather than The God. it is quite clear from the Quran
example the devil makes it seem to christians that trinity is okay and correct. the devil also pushes people to not give charity, or to be atheist.

Certainly! You and that which you are worshipping now besides The God, are fuel for Hell! you will enter it. (ch 21, verse 98)

what is it that the disbeliever worship that will enter? trinity? krishna? “atheism”? etc well no, it is the devil(s)

the devil perhaps also makes “submitters” (who updhold Quran only) believe that prayer is not physical, that they do not need to bow down to The God and prostrate.
the devil could also make it seem to submitters that ramadan is just a couple of days and not a month, or that there is no masjid to make pilgrimage to.
and yet the “submitters” will think they are on the right path eventhough they dont pray or make pilgrimage etc. remember The God gave permission (as nothing happens without His permission) to the devil to make people’s works seem good and attractive to them.

can we say that just because people uphold Quran only that the devil has no power over them? I do not know, i am only saying we should not think we are guided, but rather continuously strive in our worship of The God and constantly ask The God for guidance and forgiveness.
and pray bowing down and prostrating to The God everyday with our faces to the floor from (1) sunset to darkness of the night and in parts of the night, (2) at day of gathering, and (3) before fajr, and to also recite the Quran every night and fajr (that is my understanding, and i am just sharing)

thinking “submitters” are guided and those who uphold hadith are allll kufar and disbelievers is arrogance i think
and remember, arrogance caused the devil to fall from angel state to becoming a djinn and a kafir (i think devil was an angel before disobeying)

again, it is not because people have “submitted” that they are necessarily guided cause we do not know who truly submitted. only The God knows what is in our hearts and, He does what He wants.

also, remember that many from before and many from after will enter one of the paradises. many from before and some from after will enter the other (foremost) paradise. we do not know who these “many” are and who these “some” are (although “some” maybe we could guess includes those who died in the name of The God)

i clash with people regarding abandoning hadith, sunnah etc and many reply to me that they pray to The God and not prophet, but they just cannot take the “risk” of deviating from  what billions of people believe in and have been doing for generations. so they obviously know that there is only The God and they pray only to The God.

yes i know The God says do not mention anyone with Him (which could make shahada is perhaps shirk) and we are told to not follow hadith etc but again we cannot judge those who uphold hadith

do i think those who are for example in awe when they see prophet hair or sandals or whatver are okay? or who uphold stories such as the 50 prayer thing are ok?
no i do not, i think that is an extremely dangerous thinking.

but i do not know what is in their hearts nor what is in mine

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 26, 2020, 01:29:10 PM
Peace Layth, All.
Fisrt brother Layth, you say this,quote:
"
Alternatively, you can follow the "politically correct" route and say "I don't know, his judgement is with God, but if he did good work, then I'm sure he will be fine"
One response is specific and truthful and may help the person to find the correct path - while the other is vague and deceitful and will most likely cause both the person asking and the person responding to be held accountable for their stupidity.
"
Here is what Qoran advises:
Do not call any peaceful person "you are not a believer", if your aim is to correct them, then do it " Bi Al Hikmati Wa Al Mawidati Al Hasanati".With good intention.
Of course you should uphold the truth and be honest with it.
The issue is what is the benefit of calling a kafir even if they are one?

There is a difference between knowing that certain people are following traditions and false religions and being hostile with them by calling them kafirs..
We should give the example by being peaceful,but  honest with our views and inviting them amicably to reflect., unless  of course they turn away/refuse . Then one should ignore and walk away amicably.

Ittabiu Ashana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum. We should follow the best path instructed to us in Qoran by GOD.
Calling anyone a Kafir is never the best path to follow.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 26, 2020, 04:21:34 PM
salam good logic

i agree with your logic lol

we should not call people kafir
we dont know who is kafir who is not (i am not speaking about the open polytheism)
only The God knows

salam eveyone,

i want to add another thing. we need to stop making assumptions and taking the Quran as a mystery book.
example we cannot assume ramadan is ten days or three days. why assume that? did The God say that? no
The God said who witnesses the month let him or her fast IT.
starting to use verses that have no relationship to ramadan to try to figure out what fixed number of days means is a bit weird in my opinion. fixed numner of days could perhaps mean: the whole month and not some of it! or perhaps not 29 or 30 days depending on the year but always either 30 or 29!
or maybe shahr means a period! and ramadan is a period of 40 days?
the point is, we fast IT! the period/month of ramadan

The God says bowing and prostrating and even tells us when (salats are named! aaand described !!! (ends of dlthe day and oarts of the night and day of gathering!) why start making assumptions and thinking ourselves heros that are soo clever that they figured out that prostating and bowing means something else and salat does not mean prayer

same goes for the masjid! its quite obvious to me (unless im
mistaken of course) that we make pilgrim to the house which is the masjid al Haram and we face it from wherever we go out ! (and other instances perhaps like during prayer maybe?)

we should not let satan fool us.

people, we need prostrate eveyday to The God and ask forgiveness for us, our family, and the mo’mineen, seek guidance from The God, submit completely and say it (in Quran we are told to say sayings like our lives, worship, devotion and death belong to The God and our Lord give us good in this life, good in the hereafter and save us from the fire (i personally say these and others during prayer)). also please read verses 110 and 110 of surah 17 (more info on prayer and what to say)

anyways i am just sharing what i truly believe
and hope to also learn from other people here

to conclude, please stop making assumptions and seeking interprtations. satan makes people’s deeds seem good to them

none of us know if we are guided or not. we should always question ourselves and seek guidance from The God

glory to The God, The only King, The Owner of existence

and peace to you all


Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 26, 2020, 07:41:24 PM
Peace...

@ TF. 
I see you as a kind hearted person.. I am not going to respond your repeated emotions... Only thing I can advise you is keep on asking for guidance which is truth... Ask your creator to expose the truth in day light... Coz you say you don't know you are guided or not or believer or not Muslim or not... You want to die in ambiguity? ..
Don't worry about people what people say of masjid...  What is right for you take it.  If God guides you He will only guide you with truth soon or later.... If not totally lost...
But you should note this Ramadhan, salat, masjid haram, Zakath, ummi and many a verses only very much straightforward when Quran revealed.. But for us needs exploration... Coz time elapsed, language changed, Satan influenced and things are hidden... So without exploring if anyone can follow Quran that's worthy answering to God..
Explore dear...  Our emotions are useless.. if you happen to go Janna and your loved ones not.. We can't say to God I will never enter until you allow my loved ones as well to Janna.. ..
Real believers never go and say to any kafir, Munafiq, mushrik etc.. "You are a damn kafir".. Why should they?  I have in my entire life never called anyone as such.. But those who follow hadith (Sunni Muslim) calls us kafir just coz we follow Quran and that's what God ordered to and for not following hadith which has no base according to Quran... Not only they call us kaafir face to face but they unfortunately call us iblees and Satan and even call us destined for hell.. But I never call them by anything.. But I definitely know what they follow is wrong according to Quran... Coz their actions reflects what they follow.. Coz they don't follow Quran  ..
But knowing them is not difficult and sometimes useful for our life to keep away from them and their deception ..
My friends specially budhists they mock the word Allah..   And openly call He didn't create anything it's all craps of Quran.. So do i say to them " you kafir "... I know they are..  What I wish is guidance for them and debate with Quran till they get away speechless .. That's all I don't  worry about them.. Coz it's God's  business why they live so.. ..
We are human..  Whether hadith follower or christian or budhist or Hindu or jews what ever.  We  all share the world together ... Believers are tested by having to live with disbelievers.. that's why disbelivers don't share Janna... Never forget some disbelievers accept at certain point the God and His way.. Haven't you seen those themselves call they are DISBELIVERS (kafir) in God... Budhist clergies in our country publicly preach saying according to budhism if anyone claims there is  God he is no more a budhist.. So according to Quran they are kaafir.. And accept that there is No God.. So what's the big issue in it.. It's his path.. It's just a word Arabic kufar to disbelive...  I kufar/ disbelieve man landed on moon.. So I am a kafir for those who mumin (believer) on man landed on moon... What's wrong they call me kaafir of moon landing.. What's wrong i call them mumin of manlanding on moon.. Kafir of God and his verses.. Believer of God and His verses.. Just as simple as that..

Right path is right path..  Only one path...

There is criteria for belief.. That's why prophet Nuh said there is no one to believe anymore ... 71:26-27 indicates Nuh knew believers to take them on board to ship and leave the disbelievers on the ground... How did he know?  That's coz there is a criteria to become a believer.. And nuh knew them.. Don't say nuh would have boarded by mistake  kaafir as well and could have missed some believers too..

Finally there could be assumptions within believers who take Quran as guidance... Coz they explore... Note they all say as a note verify...  So verify..
For example I do not believe earth is spinning and man never landed on moon according to Quran but believers like Layth brother Waqas do believe it seems as man landed on moon and earth is spinning ... Does this mean we are disbelievers of God and His verses since we contradict .. Did we reach for any other books to explore it.. I remained only with quran to nullify it..and they bring the same book to justify it.. God will He will expose what is truth..
That's why I said we have explanation to God on the day of ressurection that we took only Your book.. Our knowledge made us to assume things in the manner it is not coz we wanted to deny You intentionally .. Our Lord.. But if one follows Hadith what's his explanation?  Who authorized it?  Did Quran authorised following hadith?  So why did you follow?  They will only blame their leaders..
True Believers have no leaders but Quran..

Verify.. That's it..
Just verify below verses as well for a change.. .

10:05 "It is He who made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and determined it by stations/
phases, that you might know the number of the years and the reckoning. God created that not save with the truth, distinguishing the signs to a people who know."

God said created moon phases and not for sun or Earth phases.. Unfortunately Earth has phases according to science.. ... That's why I don't trust them and trust Quran.. Hope my fellow believers also ponder..
From the day God created earth and heavens 12 full cycle of moon... In our language 12 months.. But unfortunately Earth has full cycle..
2:189 "They ask you about crescent / hilal.. " Unfortunately earth has hilal..
Verify and follow what is right..
Why do earth need hilal?  Probably we gonna live on moon in future.. While God promises we live on earth and die here..

Believers are believers as long as they adhere to Quran alone... But knowledge within Quran may differ person to person.. Like I mentioned above..

Refer this topic if anyone interested  in this..

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610127.0
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 27, 2020, 01:45:29 AM
Salam Good Logic,

Quote
Here is what Qoran advises:
Do not call any peaceful person "you are not a believer", if your aim is to correct them, then do it " Bi Al Hikmati Wa Al Mawidati Al Hasanati".With good intention.
Of course you should uphold the truth and be honest with it.

First of all, the Quran does not say what you have said:

"O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of God, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to he who greets you with peace: "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God graced you, so investigate carefully. God is expert over what you do." (4:94)

The verse quoted is from a military expedition where the prophet is on the offensive and he is told by God that if someone comes to him and says "peace unto you", then he should not assume that person is a "hostile" enemy, but that he should "investigate".

Quote
The issue is what is the benefit of calling a kafir even if they are one?

Do you think when God says in chapter 109 "Say: O you rejectors, I do not serve what you serve..." that He is addressing nobody? Or, do you think the people of Mecca knew who the audience was and the audience knew who they were?

It is not my role to tell you who is who, but you should know that there are some people out there who will work diligently to make you fail for calling to God alone and will even persecute or try to harm you if they have the opportunity...

We can all sing Kumbaya and hold hands, but I fear that is not the reality of this world.

Quote
There is a difference between knowing that certain people are following traditions and false religions and being hostile with them by calling them kafirs..
We should give the example by being peaceful,but  honest with our views and inviting them amicably to reflect., unless  of course they turn away/refuse . Then one should ignore and walk away amicably.

Where on earth did you get the notion from any posts made here about "being hostile" to rejectors?

We all work and live with rejectors and mushriks and manafiqs and muslims and mumins...This is the nature of people that they will gravitate towards one of the 5-types.

Knowing what type you are dealing with will give you clarity and understanding, especially in light of the Quran. For example, a munafiq hides his/her disbelief, so they will always be agreeable with the believers and pose as one of them (which is why they get the worst level in Hell), yet they will slip in saying certain phrases which stem from their lack of faith...A mushrik is someone who loves God, but loves others with Him and will always bring his/her idol into the conversation and will even take religious laws and rules from them...A kaffir is one who rejects outright, be it the rejection of God, His laws, or His messengers. This is the most active and hostile type towards believers as the clash of ideas cannot be reconciled.

Now, I repeat for clarity: you can be friends with ALL these types and you can live and work with them in harmony and peace. However, when things go south, remember that the lack of law and order reveals peoples innermost selves, and the behavior of outwardly peaceful people in Rawanda or Darfur, or Bosnia or Iraq or Germany (WWII) or anywhere was a confirmation of what God is warning us about.
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: Layth on May 27, 2020, 02:52:20 AM
Salam TF,

Quote
so believer/submitter is defined to be someone who believes in The God and upholds Quran only whilst hadith followers are disbelievers?

Submitter is anyone who submits to God and does good work (41:33). Upholding the Quran is not a prerequisite.

Quote
you need to understand what shirk means. you think shirk is openly being polytheistic. well no.

Shirk is a constant that needs to be worked on avoiding until the day we die (hence the prayer of the prophets is always "our Lord, let us die as submitters". Some people are lazy and continue shirk when it is pointed out, while others are diligent and make sure to repent or change their ways if they feel they have erred (like Solomon with the horses or David with the judgement of the shepherds).

Quote
the devil perhaps also makes “submitters” (who updhold Quran only) believe that prayer is not physical, that they do not need to bow down to The God and prostrate.
the devil could also make it seem to submitters that ramadan is just a couple of days and not a month, or that there is no masjid to make pilgrimage to.
and yet the “submitters” will think they are on the right path even though they dont pray or make pilgrimage etc. remember The God gave permission (as nothing happens without His permission) to the devil to make people’s works seem good and attractive to them.

Says the person who rushes into the Quran thinking he knows it all, when it should have been done slowly (20:114).

God tells man to "think/reflect/analyze/examine." So, this is your chance to do so.

I will point you to a nice article that shows the distinction between "Muslim" & "Mumin". You will need this information as you keep bringing up the subjects of Salat & Fasting in the wrong context and for the wrong audience (not your fault as the Sunnis/Shia were the ones who first did this shuffle):

https://www.free-minds.org/mumins
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: good logic on May 27, 2020, 06:36:07 AM
Peace Layth.
Let us take your points one at a time:
1 your quote   First of all, the Quran does not say what you have said:

My take; it says many more like what I said.about being fair, being sure, being forgiver, being nice, being peaceful, not calling anyone if they are peaceful....Or do you want me to give you the verses? You are a student of Qoran I am sure you can find them .I will provide them ., if you wish.
Just because GOD can distinguish and always justly,  GOD has the complete knowledge of our innermost thoughts.We need to be careful and give folks the benefit of a doubt, we can easily be unjust to people.

Resorting to patience and forgiveness reflects a true strength of character.

2-your quote:  We can all sing Kumbaya and hold hands, but I fear that is not the reality of this world..

No. We are not each others Wakils. Who is asking you to give up your values? GOD is asking us to live the example not just say it in a nice manner  and certainly to treat all people nicely and fairly unless they agress against us or try to stop our freedom of choice.
 Remember GOD was giving authorisation and starting a movement that was supported and guided by GOD. Who has the authority now to carry on with this?
We can only pass on the message in a peaceful manner and with a good example.
If you feel GOD is asking you to do it differently ,then you have the freedom to do it your way or even call it GOD s way.
As for people being all sorts ,that is not relevant if we trust in GOD and follow the straight path under GOD s protection. We should not fear anything or act out of fear and assumptions.

3- your quote: Where on earth did you get the notion from any posts made here about "being hostile" to rejectors?

Do you think I just posted my take out of the blue? I was answering jkhan, just read again and you will find why.
Even then, I was advising and being general. I was not accusing or blaming anyone.. I will be going against my own advice brother!

How can we have a better argument if we do the same as others that do not follow GOD s message? Should we not follow the best path instructed to us by GOD in Qoran?
Of course one can do as they please ,follow Qoran as they understand it and ignore what I say. I am not expecting anything from anyone they do not want to do or agree with me.

4- Your quote:  Now, I repeat for clarity: you can be friends with ALL these types and you can live and work with them in harmony and peace. However, when things go south, remember that the lack of law and order reveals peoples innermost selves, and the behavior of outwardly peaceful people in Rawanda or Darfur, or Bosnia or Iraq or Germany (WWII) or anywhere was a confirmation of what God is warning us about.

I will also clarify:
You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

Since we are always in  contact with fellow humans, it is likely to encounter a wide range of defective behavior and negative traits . That is the norm with hunam beings.. This generates hurt which could escalate to various emotional and psychological problems specially for those who are aware and appreciative of their God-given rights and those who are blessed with thoughtful hearts and high standards of morality. We need to learn to practice forgiveness and replace the negative vibes by positive ones towards all people who do us no harm.

Forgiveness is sufficiently highlighted by our Merciful God, and all what we need to do is to grasp the correct understanding, the guidelines and the consequences of this practice in order to apply it comfortably and firmly and benefit from its positive outcome:

 But of course we also need to stand up  for our right and defendind against aggression,

And even when we stand for our rights, our strength of character to pardon and let go of the pain comes naturally as an outcome. Standing for our rights is a command from God to all believers. In no way, God would allow the believers to be apathetic towards aggression and injustice is clear to me in Qoran.

However there is no need to distrust people as a habit. We must be friendly, peaceful , helpful and loving to all.
 For me , I found the worst enemy is myself. I have enough to be going on with trying to do what is right.
 Thanks brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
:
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 27, 2020, 06:38:11 AM
salam jkhan

hope all is well with you

we should not make any assumptions and think just brcause we believe inThe God and uphold Quran as the only truth that we are guided

we do not agree on what shirk means

also do not assume you will be given the opportunity to plead your case on day of judgement and say “i only followed Quran”. Did The God say we could plead our cases? if so please show me the verse
and even if you plead, The God does whatever He wants

There are not many ways but one. example prayer is either physical or not. those who uphold Quran and believe in One God but do not pray physically, are they guided? does not The God say to maintain our prayers, and that even at times of war we should pray? and that a group should pray whilst another should be of watch and then vice verse (isnt that yet another proof prayer is physical) The God guides whom He wants and He also knows who desrves to be guided.

regarding verses with nuh you mentioned, i do not think it is what you said. nuh does not know who is a believer and who is not on earth except from his people (as obviously the believers boarded the ship with him). did nuh not plead with The God for his son? the verses you mention in my opinion serve to tell us that the flood was global and not local as nuh asks The God to not leave any disbelievers on earth

you do not believe man was on the moon, why? have you spoken with those who claim to have landed on the main or organized it? you assume no man landed on moon from other assumptions (such as the issue with the flag etc) again my point is that we should not assume things

salam layth

hope all is well with you too

i do not follow what sunni shia do for salat or ramadan but my understanding of them through the Quran

i honestly absolutely do not understand your definition of salat or ramadan and why you also made assumptions from your article about ramadan being in winter and only ten days

i do not think i know it all, i perhaps know nothing. that is the point  am trying to get accross. no one knows who is guided and we should stop assuming we are guided. and to also stop innovating

i gave my opinion about salat and ramadan etc and you give/gave yours (in your articles as well as the forum and this thread) how am i the “i know it all” type and you no? and how am i the i know it all if i keep saying we should not assume we are guided and you assume to be guided whilst alll the others including hadith believers to not be guided?

i only share what i believe and call on people here who believe prayer not physical to maintain their physical prayers and stop with the assumptions

if you may, please prove to me salat is not physical using the verses and i will prove to you the contrary

same for ramadan being ten days and in winter (if you want to do so of course)

anyways, i reflect and look at the verses and take them at face value, i do not jump to conclusions just to be different from sunni or shia for the sake of being different like i felt some people do in this website

thanx for the article :)

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 27, 2020, 08:47:40 AM
Peace...

1... I will make assumptions.. And explore QURAN as long as I need clarity and guidance... Is that an issue for you?  You want me to do what you say.. "pls don't make assumptions"..
I am responsible for my life... I need to explore.. In explorations assumptions are vital.. Bit within Quran..

2... I don't want to agree with you about shirk.. Quran is clear about what is shirk. If doubt go re-read all shirk verses..

3... I wish I don't need to plead with God about anything on the day of ressurection... Those who plead could only be the misfortunes.. So I don't need your imaginary assumption that I do plead  ... I wish God judge me with what I have done as He has promised in His book.  My God never break His promise... God will give the record to me and I know what I have done and He won't miss anything in that book without being recorded.. I know what I have done. So don't worry about me.. I don't know my future in current life .. God bless me to be better than past..

Don't think we don't get opportunity to talk with God.. Coz He says every soul will be questioned on what they did...  Harder the questions for disbelievers... Questions needs to answered.. I know I have surrendered to the one who created me..
And I have believed in His promise in Quran.. He says " why should I punish the believers ".. Cannot remember verse number.. I am not serving a God who is injustice and promise breaker... I am serving the one the most merciful and most Just...God does what He wants but He cannot break the promise that He made to men and jinn... He is true and not a liar..

4.. Salat in Quran has many meaning  .one of them is PHYSICAL PRAYER... Just go ask anyone who says it's not physically done.. Not me... Coz I do stand three times a day and what I do... It's my contact with God..

5....i know very well nuh pleaded to God for his son.. Nuh was human.. And how can he see his son dying at least not calling him to the ship.. But God clearly advised not to disobey Him.. Then He understood..
For me.. The deluge was worldwide.. But on the earth only Nuh's community lived.. So it was not an issue for him..

6...dont assume and say that I assume this and that while you don't know what I assume..
Man never landed on moon.. I say it coz it is not a place to land.. Moon has its own light and it is not created in a way that we could land.. Quran verses clear moon has phases.. And these phases has no connection with sun.. God changes its shape until it return to appear as date stalk.. ... And I don't have time to find out when they land on any other so called moons... How many moons God has created? You think I am fool to trust them whenever they land on each and every imaginary moons and planets.. While God says he created Moon  and not MoonS.. God says He created sun a radiant light and moon a light in the sky.. May be God forgot earth is also a light in the sky it may be forgotton that  there more bigger and larger objects than this sun and moon to be called radiant to sun in the sky..

Out of Quran if you need explanation. For me moon is plasma.. So don't try to near it ...

I wish I can speak to them and ask what I have to ask? You seem you are just a little joker.. I have spoken to them.. Ha ..ha ha
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 27, 2020, 09:01:17 AM
salam jkhan

i would like to please ask you a question (for my knowledge)

you pray 3 times a day
please explain to me what are the three prayers you do and how you got to that conclusion? (do you recite Quran or not during prayer?)

my understanding of prayer is (1) from sunset to dusk and throughout night, (2) before fajr, (3) and day of gathering

please share your understanding

thank uuu

peace
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 27, 2020, 07:17:28 PM
salam jkhan

i would like to please ask you a question (for my knowledge)

you pray 3 times a day
please explain to me what are the three prayers you do and how you got to that conclusion? (do you recite Quran or not during prayer?)

my understanding of prayer is (1) from sunset to dusk and throughout night, (2) before fajr, (3) and day of gathering

please share your understanding

thank uuu

peace

Dear brother sister..

Why do you ask from someine whome you keep calling full of assumptions. Will my assumptions suit you?

anyhow it's God's will you asked..
So go through any of the salt topic I have debated.. Honestly I cannot remember under which topic I did.. But I hope in many..
Search if you are interested... So you will get what I practice when it comes to Salat...

Is what you follow an assumption of yours when it comes to Salat deviating from mainstream...
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 27, 2020, 07:35:51 PM
salam

i asked you in hopes you tell me using verses as proofs and not assumptions

and no, i followed verses and not assumptions

okay thanx

peace brother or sister :)
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: jkhan on May 27, 2020, 09:56:14 PM
salam

1.. i asked you in hopes you tell me using verses as proofs and not assumptions

2... and no, i followed verses and not assumptions

okay thanx

3....peace brother or sister :)

Peace brother sister  ..

1...That's why I asked you to search... I don't want to repeat a huge amount of information.. Search and refer...

2... That's what I also  I say.. I followed verses not assumptions... Assumptions are while studying.. To follow need clarification...

3... My gender is very much publicised by Free-minds administrators...and also by people calling me brother   Don't you have a gender... 😬.. I wish you have.. Lol
Title: Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
Post by: tutti_frutti on May 28, 2020, 07:32:25 AM
salam jkhan

lol im a brother too

peace