Free Minds

Politics / Economics => Islamic Constitution => Topic started by: Tunisian Man on February 18, 2003, 03:41:00 PM

Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Tunisian Man on February 18, 2003, 03:41:00 PM
Salam All,
after discussing anwar and me only about the subject of "constitution", I wonder if the rest of members are afraid about discussing this matter, and if you are afraid, I just want to know why?
After discussing about Ummah concept, is there any body who want to discuss about "territory concept".
I would like to remind every body, that constitution, if you mean constitution for a state, is the juridical mean to organise governing power
and seperate this power in three powers, executive power, legislative power, and judicial power. it is also the mean to guaranty poeple freedom and human rights and solidarity between poeple, and it is the mean to express the principle on which a state is raised.
I wonder if it was accurate to put the matter of "constitution" here, and if it is accurate to consider any political concern.
I am very skeptic about it!
Salam
Zoubeir
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Wakas on February 18, 2003, 07:52:05 PM
I personally am not afraid of discussing it. I have chosen not to thus far because my knowledge on the subject is very limited.

If by "territory concept" you mean land/country for us to physically live on/in, I dont think this will come about for a while yet. As our numbers grow (which they are every day) our social, political and economic influence will grow too. Pressure for reform of so called Muslim countries will grow from internal as well as external forces. IMHO, it is only a matter of time as I firmly believe that in the end the truth will prevail... especially as we presently live in the blessed information age, falsehood has nowhere to hide now.

The movement seems to be following a logical step by step process:

Literal translation of The Quran.

Whilst members research, reflect, increasing their knowledge and understanding of Islam... eventually culminating in an enlightened Ummah, capable of forming a Just constitution based on The Criterion, God Willing.
Giving a practical model to implement... which as far as I am aware has never been done before.

I found a useful site which groups verses from The Quran together by topic:
http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/topics/index.html


peace,
wakas
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Layth on February 18, 2003, 11:42:02 PM
Dear Zubair,

The issue of the 'constitution' has been agreed upon as one of 'prime importance' and is highlighted as one of the objectives of the Progressive Muslims movement on the site ProgressiveMuslims.Org (http://www.progressivemuslims.org)[/b].

The project is not being worked on because it was felt that a complete 'translation' be available which is more reliable in its interpretation than what we currently have in the market (that project is now close to 60% complete)...

The reason for taking it 'slow' is that once we put together a constitution then we are in essence declaring what our undertsanding is of the 'law'...We do not want to be in a situation where we give a wroong undertsanding which will linger on for generations because we were too 'hasty' and did not study the Quran as it deserved.

Just to give you an exaqmple, I personally was under the undertsanding that Polygamy was allowed if it involved orphans...more recently after reviewing the verses on the subject in the translation, I find that polygamy may not even be allowed under the laws of the book.

What we CAN do at this stage is put together an 'outline' for the constitution and then fill the subject matter when we have gotten to that stage.

The above is just my opinions and may be incorrect.

Layth
Title: now the train is on the rails
Post by: Tunisian Man on February 19, 2003, 01:14:13 AM
Salam Wakas and Layth,
As I said it above "now the train is on the rails", just to reply to you wakas
a territory, poeple, and government are the material elements of a state,
Ummah is the immaterial element of a state, and Ummah means poeple who has a strong feeling and willing to live together on a defined territory.
by discussing on this matter with anwar, it appears, that ummah in quraan, does not mean nation, and he almost blamed me and accused me by westernism, and does not see that all countries in the world are now what we call State/Nation, unless of course things change with globalization.
Nice layth, thanks for your work, and God help you, but i have some concerns, does this constitution will take into account mainly and firstly
freedom of faith, do this constitution will take into account that not all the poeple will beleive like you and me, that our religion is Quraan and our God is God, will this constitution take into account that all the poeple will not accept the punishment of adultery as 100 slashes, and even some poeple will ask for sex freedom, will this constitution and how this constitution will accept the democracy based on political life based on political parties, or it will adopt another principle, will this constitution seperates the political power, what social well fare will this constitution offer to poeple, will be there freedom of creation (arts, litterature, cinema, theater, etc....), will this constitution allow poeple to express freely.
Will quraan as we will understand allow all this
I find the translation of Quraan interesting, but who are the main poeple concerned by Quraan, the poeple who are called muslims, are they!
and then others.
and the so called muslims are mainly arabic speaking poeple, do they need really traslation, no, since they can already read the quraan in it s original language, the majority of the articles and developped idea on this site are in english, the only site who can really be browsed in arabic is submission org, is that good, poeple saw and read that quraan is added by tow human verses, that causes me insomnia for weeks.

I am personnaly very confortable with the fact that you find that polygamy is not permitted, and will be thankfull if you just explain me this, even though we do not have polygamy in Tunisia, and my self find polygamy unjust, but salafist, are attacking us for that, and for many other things, so just they let us alone

What future has this movement, if nobody watch us, look to poeple, they are influenced day by day by the Salafist and sunni TV channels, like Iqraa, these men coming from the stone age with their barbs, and bringing poeple to the stone age, I saw friends and relatives, men and women, falling in their trap, how can we stop them, fews are in islamic word who are connected to internet, just take a look on the countries from where the members of progressive muslims are, mainly Europe and USA.
don't you see poeple walking step by step to obscurantism, I want to be optimist like wakas, but really need action.
from my side I tryed to speak to poeple about it, some are thinking I am philosophizing, some others said they worry about me, some others told me how do you know better than these respectable men who make khotba in the mosque, or who come on the TV channels giving fatwas, and indeed OULAMA, just tow of my friends are open enough to see the accuracy of Quraan alone.
But I will keep trying God willing.

thanks
Salam
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Wakas on February 19, 2003, 03:34:51 AM
I am not an optimist... I'm a realist.  :wink:
Title: progressive muslims chart
Post by: Tunisian Man on February 19, 2003, 05:04:53 PM
Salam sisters & brothers,

I am more convinced to speak about and elaborate a "PROGRESSIVE MUSLIMS CHARTER or MITHAK or DECLARATION or UNIVERSAL DECLARATION" more then"CONSTITUTION".
it is more realistic, as we are realistics :)
thanks
salam
Zoubeir
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 24, 2003, 10:40:41 PM
I might take up on the same project like many seem to dare, that is, interpretation and explanation of the Quran in its entirety in order to satisfy my own opinions and desires. Thus forming a new group, a new constitution, a new sect, a new religion, a new declaration and so, in the pretext of God being the Only One. Nay, but then I just might be creating a whole new "MESS".

Just how many more varieties of God Alone Quran Alone do we need? Didn't Rashad Khalifa wake up the world and got killed for bringing the world together in the belief of the Oneness of God? As soon as he died, many more "messengers" erupted, just to prove that he was wrong and we are right in their own opinions.

What is happening with everyone these days? Are they getting too clever and arrogant? Why can't one leave the Quran alone as it originally was in order to simply "discuss" it and stop "inventing and creating" it again and again.

First the Sunni and their sub-sects, then the Shia and their sub-sects and now the God Alone and Quran Alone and their sub-sects and the BATTLE goes on. Who and What's next?
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 24, 2003, 10:45:46 PM
Peace

Human history repeats itself. There will always be such things. Persevere patiently.  :wink:

Joe
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 25, 2003, 12:40:30 AM
Hello Joe,

Thanks for your reply. But I must ask as to persevere patiently on the grounds and rules of which translation or which 'Quran'.

Can anyone respond to my questions in the category of Quran Translation as put forth on this forum earlier.

LillyChilly.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 25, 2003, 02:17:25 PM
Peace  :D

The Quran does not make one persevere patiently. One needs no Quran in order to do this.  :wink:

In response to your other inquery I''m suprised you yourself have no knowledge as to which one should be followed. Remember, half-assed attempts at understanding will only get you half-assed results.  :shock:

Take care.

Joe  :twisted:
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 25, 2003, 03:51:10 PM
The Nabi here sounds illlogical. If no Quran is needed to persevere patiently, then, why the BIG FUSS over the Quran and secondly, the question of half-assed or full-assed or whatever-assed in understanding the Quran does not arise.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 25, 2003, 03:58:56 PM
Peace  :)

You seemed to be fed up with all these sub-sects and wondering if and when they would ever stop. Remember? Then I was like, history repeats itself so you should just persevere patiently. Do you need the Quran to teach you that?  :?

Quote
If no Quran is needed to persevere patiently, then, why the BIG FUSS over the Quran


The fuss is over what is alone mandatory as the source of law and instruction in Islam. This would be the Quran, it is the criterion pointing to what is right and what is wrong(Quran 3:3).

Remember, this is just one path in life, nobody says you have to believe in this one that those who follow the Quran believe in, not even the Quran(Quran 18:29). Follow your path whatever that path may be.  :wink:

Quote
secondly, the question of half-assed or full-assed or whatever-assed in understanding the Quran does not arise.


It certainly does. Or else you'd not be wondering on all these sects and sub-sects.  :D

Take care.

Joe  :twisted:
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 25, 2003, 06:55:48 PM
Thanks fo the reply Mr. Nabi.

God is the ONLY ONE to teach and guide me. "Quran would teach me which sect or cult to join in". Afterall, isn't this how humans are respecting it.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 25, 2003, 06:57:54 PM
Thanks for the reply Mr. Nabi.

God is the ONLY ONE to teach and guide me. "Quran would teach me which sect or cult to join in". Afterall, isn't this how humans are respecting it and forming various groups of their own.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 25, 2003, 07:40:30 PM
Peace(Quran 6:54)

Quote
God is the ONLY ONE to teach and guide me.


My sentiments as well.  :wink:

Quote
"Quran would teach me which sect or cult to join in". Afterall, isn't this how humans are respecting it and forming various groups of their own.


We each think our own way and believe what we will based on our understanding of the Quran. Cults call for one frame of mind, no differings.  :wink:  Quran teaches you to be truthful to yourself. Read my message on the bottom of my post.

Take care.

Joe

P.S. If you do not like one way of thinking, or a certain following don't you think it'd be wise to not to annoy others by saying their belief is wrong? This just causes more fights before God.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 25, 2003, 10:54:29 PM
Quran 6:54...and Peace to you as well. You certainly woke me up here.

Quote
If you do not like one way of thinking,

There is no such thing as "one way of thinking".

Quote
or a certain following don't you think it'd be wise to not to annoy others by saying their belief is wrong? This just causes more fights before God

Only God knows what I am truely after. I am neither here to agress nor transgress but simply trying to get answers in a 'different way', in case you want to know, and that is because I have my own reasons. Isn't this what free-minds all about? Nabi musn't be jumping to conclusions as such and by the way, the word "half-assed" doesn't carry any meaning.

Forgive me if I was too blatant.

All the best.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 26, 2003, 05:00:01 PM
Peace again

Quote
There is no such thing as "one way of thinking".


I should have said our ways of thinking!  :cry:

Quote
Only God knows what I am truely after.


You do too. We all know what it is we want and who we are. We just mislead ourselves and get lost in our own illusions and make ourselves think we do not know.  :wink:

Quote
Nabi musn't be jumping to conclusions as such and by the way, the word "half-assed" doesn't carry any meaning.


Believe me, I never reach conclusions, I just hold to theories.  8)  And 'half-assed' is a slang term!  :wink:

Quote
Forgive me if I was too blatant.


Your quite easily forgiven.

Take care.

Joe  :twisted:
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 26, 2003, 05:59:31 PM
Thanks mate and peace.

By the way, Nabi, what would you honestly say, if I was to tell you that I truely believe in God as the ONLY ONE and that I'm trying hard not to lie, not to cheat, do not drink, do not smoke/drugs, be fair and square in just about everything I do, act and say and simply ponder and experience His natural creation, exalting and imploring Him and thinking about Him at all times WITHOUT the need of Quran? In other words, do I need to abide by the rules of the Quran in order to believe in God?
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Wakas on March 26, 2003, 06:35:24 PM
Surely those who have faith, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the reverts; any one of them who has faith in GOD and the last day, and does good work, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
[2:62]
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 26, 2003, 07:11:21 PM
Peace

You do not need the Quran to believe in God, the Quran just promotes the Gods system.

Take care.

Joe  :twisted:
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 27, 2003, 12:32:47 AM
To Nabi and Wakas....Peace.

So, by avoiding the Quran completely, does that mean that I do not need to perform ablution, 5 times salat, 30 days fasting, go to pilgrimage, pay 2.5% or whatever alms, and perhaps several other "rules" that one MUST obey in order to believe in God and still reach heaven.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: AaRoN on March 27, 2003, 02:08:53 AM
peace

joe's quote:

Quote
You do not need the Quran to believe in God, the Quran just promotes the Gods system.


delusions' quote:

Quote
So, by avoiding the Quran completely, does that mean that I do not need to perform ablution, 5 times salat, 30 days fasting, go to pilgrimage, pay 2.5% or whatever alms, and perhaps several other "rules" that one MUST obey in order to believe in God and still reach heaven.


how does what joe said about not needing the Quran to believe
suddenly turn into not needing the Quran to act on those beliefs?

if you want to follow the Quran, then the Quran is indeed necessary.

if you don't want to follow the Quran, then what possible motive would you have for continuing this discussion?
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 27, 2003, 12:46:59 PM
Peace.

Quote
joe's quote:

Quote:
You do not need the Quran to believe in God, the Quran just promotes the Gods system.

delusions' quote:

Quote:
So, by avoiding the Quran completely, does that mean that I do not need to perform ablution, 5 times salat, 30 days fasting, go to pilgrimage, pay 2.5% or whatever alms, and perhaps several other "rules" that one MUST obey in order to believe in God and still reach heaven.

how does what joe said about not needing the Quran to believe
suddenly turn into not needing the Quran to act on those beliefs?


Its pretty obvious, isn;t it? Can;t you SEE it all around you? Is it a MUST to read the Quran in order to believe in the beliefs? Also, stop defending and siding others, unless you yourself are absolutely sure, before you become too arrogant.

Quote
if you want to follow the Quran, then the Quran is indeed necessary.

Illogical statement.

Quote
if you don't want to follow the Quran, then what possible motive would you have for continuing this discussion?

There are plenty of reasons given on this forum in case you 'overlooked'.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: TheNabi on March 27, 2003, 01:03:09 PM
Peace

It is a must to believe in the Quran to believe in those things that the Quran teaches. It is not a must, and totally unnecessary to believe in the Quran to believe in God.  :wink:

Quote
Quote:
if you want to follow the Quran, then the Quran is indeed necessary.

Illogical statement.


I'm confused now, how is that statement illogical?

Take care.

Joe
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: mquran on March 27, 2003, 01:03:23 PM
Salaamun alaikum,

There are indeed many paths which Allah offers us. Please see 29/69, look out for the word 'pathS'.

In my reading, I believe our relationship with the Quran to be as such:

1. If we read Quran but inspiration (wahi) hasn't come to us, we may accept or reject it.

2. If we read Quran and inspiration comes to us that this is from Allah and we reject it, then we are in disbelief.

To Mr Delusions, the concepts which Allah gave us through the Quran are tools. These tools will help us in life and increase our standing with Allah. However, if a person goes through life without these tools, then Allah judges him based on what is in his heart.

many thanks and peace
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on March 27, 2003, 01:26:40 PM
peace.

Quote
To Mr Delusions, the concepts which Allah gave us through the Quran are tools. These tools will help us in life and increase our standing with Allah. However, if a person goes through life without these tools, then Allah judges him based on what is in his heart.

Misjudged. I never said that I do not follow for what's in the Quran, ie. the tools. In other words, I still follow the tools of the Quran without the need of the Quran.

Quote
if you want to follow the Quran, then the Quran is indeed necessary.

The reason why this is illogical is because I do not need the Quran to follow everything that I already follow what the Quran says. Still confused?

Quote
It is a must to believe in the Quran to believe in those things that the Quran teaches. It is not a must, and totally unnecessary to believe in the Quran to believe in God.  

Although well said by TheNabi, I will add my above 'statement in bold'.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Sha on September 21, 2003, 10:19:43 AM
Peace Delusions...

I'm confused about what you are trying to say or imply. And you are also confused.

Can you try making a coherent case for what you want to say? I'm not asking because I'm generally curious...I'm seriously curious about the specific subject you are messing around with. ;)

Thanx

Sha
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Danish on September 23, 2003, 06:44:53 PM
Peace Sha,

Firstly, if you yourself are confused, then you mustn’t accuse me of messing around with the subject whilst thinking that I am also confused. This by itself is illogical.

In order to understand what I was implying, I believe you must first try to grasp and eliminate your confusion by understanding, differentiating and pondering upon what is "God-made" and what is "man-made". If you have mastered this simple notion, then I presume you’ve understood your own confusion based upon the "subject".

For example: my ten year old son, who has no idea what Quran is all about, has been growing up in his very own environment as laid out in this life until he departs. He goes through several phases of life, learning and understanding every aspect of it. One day, he lies about something and gets exposed. The next day he steals something from school and gets punished for. In the following days he gets caught up in a fight and either beats or gets beaten up. On the contrary, he also does his assigned homework and gets rewarded. He works hard and gets paid for. He helps a blind man cross the street one day and gets praised for and so on and so forth. Every phase of real life incidents that he encounters, whether good or bad, he learns, understands and ponders upon them and its outcome. As he grows, he experiences zillion other real life syndromes. He also advances in the academics of ABCD’s and 1234’s, weighing in and upholding them in accordance with his best judgment. He senses the ups and downs of life that carries him along. Gradually, he questions himself and everything that surrounds him and his beliefs, the Creator and the Creation. The question is, did he ever need the Quran to justify his real life experiences which has been specially and specifically "red-carpetted" for him and only him, on this earth.

A topic you chose on this forum: "Buddhism has lessons for us". I hope it has helped somewhat in understanding my points and to get rid of your confusion, not mine.

Hope this has helped.
God Bless.
Title: ON WHICH TERRITORY?
Post by: Sha on October 02, 2003, 11:14:35 AM
Peace Delusions...

I certainly didn't mean to offend you. I wasn't refering to your state of mind but to that particular post which preceded mine.

To know the straight path, or the true path, Quran is an extremely useful guide. And I agree with you that we can discover this path even without the Quran. Divine guidance just makes things easier as well as makes them more certain then otherwise.

Relax. :)

Sha