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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Edip Yuksel on January 18, 2005, 08:10:20 AM

Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 18, 2005, 08:10:20 AM
Closing the Debate, Analysis of Ali Sina and His Mission, and the Surprise

January 17, 2005
Edip Yuksel, 19.org

On January 14, 2005 I wrote the following:

Quote
"What are you saying Ali Sina? Was it your other personality who for about three weeks has been scavenging among the piles of hadith and syra books?

"In your attack to the Quran so far you have not been able to get your nose out of those trash; you always followed the "Six Steps to the Power of 666" methodology. It would be perhaps a much better argument if you could give up from your hadith treasure and focus on that book alone. But, deep in your heart you know that you cannot criticize the Quran against someone like me; so you tried to delay such a debate. So far, all your accusations have been thrown into where they belong. With the exception of the few troll who will clap you even if you sneeze, people will see it.

"I will post a brief analysis of your site, your cause and I will present you a little surprise. Hopefully, before the next week starts."


Well, now it is time for the ANALYSIS and the SURPRISE note. However, first I will explain what led me to end this debate:

About a month ago, I accepted Ali Sina's invitation to debate on Islam. I had limited time, so I invited him to debate face-to-face in public. I told him that I could arrange such a debate at the University of Arizona or Pima College. I was working to finish important projects such as the Reformist Translation of the Quran; a script for a political comedy; animation school; and establishing an alliance with other organizations under the name Islamic Reform; and teaching philosophy.

But, Ali Sina rejected to debate in public claiming security and his need for research; so, we ended up debating on Islam at his website, which took about a month. Despite my repeated reminder to debate on the Quran, Ali was obsessed with using hearsays of hearsays in his arguments. I was glad that finally, Ali Sina was offering to debate in a nicer language and focus on the Quran, and I congratulated him for that decision. Nevertheless, my happiness did not last long. On January 13, 2005, Ali posted a paragraph exposing his real face. I read the paragraph first at free-minds.org then I saw it published at his website, faithfreedom.org. I reacted to that in a language that it deserved. Here is the merged version of my successive two reactions. Note that for the first time I did not feel free to call Ali with the word "dear":

Quote
You may say but Muslims are humans too. Is having the human appearance enough to make us humans? The sign of humanity is in our humanness. No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of the Quran that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human. Therefore, this is a war between humanity and a spiritually underdeveloped subhuman species. The actions of Muslims are barbaric. Their thoughts are beastly. They have no human conscience and they are preying on us humans. So this is a war between humans and Muslims.
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Ali:

I know that your mouth is filled with foam and venom against Muslims, but I do not expect you to be using the exact language of Fascists and Nazis. In case you have not written the above-quoted idiotic statements, which I hope that you have not, then ignore these words and let the real source get my message.

To the coward vampire, who is instigating wars and genocides:

You are the real subhuman, you are a vampire who is thirsty to suck the blood of more than a billion humans on this planet. If this is an irrational reaction to a terrorist event that killed several thousand people, then you should demonstrate many times more hatred and irrational reaction to the terrorism, atrocities, murders, and massacres committed by USA-INC, UK, USSR, and Israel; in the last century alone, in which they killed MILLIONS of PEOPLE and destroyed countries and annihilated entire cities! By calling destruction of entire cities, together with families and children, with the word WAR does not make a bit difference.

Though I condemn a warmongering group of hypocrite Christians by calling their name Evilgelical, I never justify killing Evilgelical Christians, let alone all Christians, or killing Zionist Jews, let alone all Jews. You are a monster using the mask of humanism. You cannot be a human; you are a hatemonger and bloodthirsty creature. I do not condone killing animals like you; but I might approve of putting a leash around your dirty neck.

Peace is our weapon against fascist warmongers. Yes, PEACE

I am waiting for Ali Sina's answer for this matter, ASAP. This excerpt is not something simple to get away with it. I will explain after Ali Sina's rejection or admission. And I hope he will reject or rescind it. I will accept his denial even if he was the one who had written in a moment of irrationality and rabid insanity.  

So, Ali Sina, if it is not you who has written the above Neo Nazi remarks then who is posting articles together with you? If it is you, be brave and own your words.

Tell me whether it is indeed NOT you who have declared himself to be a promoter of genocide by dehumanizing all Muslims. Tell me that a TALIBAN or a NEONAZI hacker hacked your website and wrote answer in your name. I would be glad to accept this scenario. Because, I cannot believe that a person who is smart enough to engage in intellectual debates, though frequently sniffing and stuffing himself with holy trash, could be author of such rabid and diabolic words!  SALAM, that is PEACE

On January 14, 2005 Ali Sina responded to my query as follows:

Quote
"Looks like you took that personally. Does that description describes you too? If not then why you get so worked out and if yes what else do you want me to call you when all you think is killing innocent human beings?"

"Make your position clear Edip, do you approve of terror and murder of innocent people or not. Is this talk about reformation and humanization nothing but cheap propaganda? Which side you are standing anyway? If you are on the side of humanity why you get so upset and if you are on the site of the savage terrorists then why pretend to have been reformed. Is there an third position that I am not aware of?"
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Ali Sina after condemning and convicting the entire muslim world to death and then as the judge of his court now he is contemplating to forgive my life if I can prove to him that I am not guilty, or subhuman. Though he had visited my personal website (yuksel.org), my organization's website (19.org), read my life story, and learned my uncompromising standing against violence, terror, wars, human rights violation and suppression of freedom? Knowing that I had to flee my country because of my rejection of traditional corrupt Islam, knowing that my mentor and close friend was the first victim of al-Qaida terrorism in the USA, and witnessing that the rabid Sunnies and Shiites participating at his forum sided with him against me, knowing all of these, his majesty is not yet clear whether to distinguish me from other Muslims who are condemned to death by his "humanistic" decree of genocide. He needs more evidence, perhaps, me publicly begging for my life in his court of inquisition!

Thank God, this so-called Hislamic apostate who is openly supported by Evilgelical Christians does not have power. He would be worse than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or his like-minded Taliban.

I am glad that I am in a country established by deists, monotheists, and muslims (submitters to God alone and promoters of peace), who escaped from religious persecution. The constitution of the United States is mostly in harmony with Quranic principles. I am blessed for not living in a country ruled by Pope, Evangelical Christians, Talibans, Mullahs, or fascist cult of Ali Sina. Though the USA government is currently infiltrated by Evangelical Christians, there are still many institutions and majority of people who appreciate justice, equality, liberty, and the separation of church and state. I will fight against organized religion influencing the government of my country.

Thus, Ali Sina's theo-fascist remarks declaring ALL Muslims being "subhuman species" made me decide to discontinue the debate with him. His "subhuman" remark was the last, but a venomous drop that filled his cup of hatred and bigotry. He is not a person to reason with, since his mind is filled with toxic hate and his stomach is thirsty for fresh blood. I now regret calling him with the word "dear," since he does not deserve even its first letter.

Those who are curious about my response to Ali's "6-Step" criticism of the Quran will find our answer to his and many other criticism at the side notes of the Reformist Translation of the Quran, which will be published in the end of the year, inshallah.

As I promised, I am posting my analyses of the leader of this small cult. A SURPRISE note will follow these analyses:

POSITIVE ASPECTS:

1.   Ali Sina is a smart, articulate and well-versed in classic Hislamic liturgy. Thus, I do not think that he was originally a Christian introducing himself as a former Muslim.

2.   Ali Sina's website, though frequented by cheerleaders and hatemonger drunkards, is indeed an open forum with no censorship, like our forum at 19.org. I have not yet seen a Hislamic or Evilgelical website with such an open door policy.

3.   Ali Sina, though chopped some of my arguments by integrating/devouring them within his arguments, he demonstrated acceptable degree of fairness in posting them.

4.   Ali Sina, having full control on the website, could have distorted my responses and he even could have posted some outrageous statements under my name. (This happened in an atheist Turkish forum several years ago!). Ali Sina seems to have integrity in this regard.

5.   Ali Sina, though misguided, has complete dedication to his cause. (Since we do not know about his identity, we cannot verify nor falsify claims about his getting financial aid from Evangelical organizations or from CIA for his job to promote hate and genocide.).

6.   Though Ali Sina appears to be thirstier for the blood of innocent people than his Hislamic clones, such as members of Taliban and Al-Qaida, he has a mediocre sense of humor that others lack. His sense of humor might be an indication that there is hope for his recovery from hatemongering.

7.   Though, using his old sunni mentality Ali frequently confuses the Quran with books of hearsay, Ali Sina does an excellent job in exposing the numerous problems in teachings of hadith, sunnah, and sectarian jurisprudence.

NEGATIVE ASPECTS:

1.   Ali Sina follows the Evilgelical-Sunny methodology of Right foot, left foot. Wet foot, dry foot. Low foot, high foot. True foot, lie foot. Here comes the Evilgelical-Sunni sly soot!

Ali Sina shares a strikingly similar poor knowledge of the Quran with Sunnis and Shiites. He uses the same lousy argument. He uses THE STINKIEST SUBSTANCE out of the Sunni holy trash as the MAIN MENUE in his round table.  He is not able to read the Quran without smelling the piles of hadith. Now it is clear that his Hislamic disease is still in his heart and mind. His approach to the Quran is exactly similar to of the Sunni or Shiite ones.

Without being brainwashed by these teachings, any reasonable person would and should understand the meaning and message of verses. Sure, we can ask more questions regarding the details WE WISH to see, but there is no end of demands for more details, especially irrelevant details.

The idea of abrogation is a Satanic idea, and it was fabricated by Sunni and Shiite mushriks who had problems with some verses when they tried to twist others. Ironically, his mentality is not much different. It seems that he has rejected the substance of his religion but he is keeping its mind set, its fallacious reasoning methods exactly. No wonder, the Sunnys who are following our argument have found Ali Sina much closer to themselves!

Ali Sina repeatedly claimed that the Quran was not detailed because it did not provide the real identity of person in chapter 111; he wondered about Abu Lahab and claimed that Quran is meaningless without hadith and other storybooks, since they provide much detail about that character. Well, I he just proved the Quran, since according to the Quran fanatic disbelievers will never understand the Quran (17:45-46). The believers of the Quran finds Abu Lahab (Father of Fire) a universal character. For instance, with his promotion of hate and violence against one fifth of humanity, Ali Sina is an example of prototype Abu Lahab, he is the Father of Fire. He will end up in his own hell together with his supporters who carry fuel for his fire.

2.   Ali Sina frequently makes false claims with hyperbolic pontifications.

For instance, he claimed that verse 7:166 claims that God "literally" transformed Jews to monkeys and pigs and continued by saying that "no scholar has understood them as metaphors." I quoted from Muhammad Asad's translation, The Message, and proved that he was simply wrong.

Another example is his assertion regarding the Quranic verses promoting freedom of religion and expression. He claimed that all belong to Meccan era when Muhammad was weak. The trashy sources he was so fond of using against my faith, yes his favorite sources are reporting differently regarding the first verse in his reference. Thus, he misrepresented his own trashy sources. Verse 2:256 is listed as Medinan verse by the sources he wished me to believe. Again, he mixes truth with falsehood, pieces of glass with diamond, poison with candies? Exactly like hadith narrators and collectors had done.

3.   Ali Sina has the habit of putting words in his opponent's mouth.

For instance, regarding my promotion of Islamic Reform, he either from ignorance or deliberately switched my words around and described it as Reform in Islam.

I told him to go ask someone who knows English better than him the difference between "Reform in Islam" and "Islamic Reform." He indicated that he has read some of my articles at my website. Has he done so, he should have learned that I do not suggest what he is trying to put in my mouth. Perhaps, he is deliberately trying to misrepresent my position to divert from the main issues. He has somehow succeeded many times by resorting to his favorite silly storybooks, and copying and pasting them here.

4.   Ali Sina lacks academic rigor, and when it is in his advantage, he confuses modern Arabic with classic Arabic, or uses third class unreliable sources.

His suggesting MOKAFAT in our debate on Jizya was interesting: After another lengthy diversion with a load of trashy references and lies, he finally made an argument, though a funny argument. First, the word MOKAFAT is modern Arabic and is not used in the Quran and hadith books. He is confusing a Modern Arabic word with classic Arabic.

Ali's linguistic sources are little better than his hadith sources, but they are still third rate sources. He referred to vikipedia.org regarding our discussion on the word Jizya of verse 9:29. Any person can go write an article and definition in wikipedia.org, including him and any of his followers. From his MOKAFAT, his knowledge of classic Arabic became suspect, and from using wikipedia.org, his level of academic gullibility became an issue.

Another example: He criticizes the Quran for being unscientific by reading the verses of the Quran like a third grader. For instance, he refers to verse 18:86 and understand it as "Koran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring." He ignores the fact the verse is not describing an astronomic event, but the PERCEPTION of Zul Qarnain (the one with two generations), since he verse introduces the perception as "HE FOUND". I urge anyone to search google by putting the following words in quotation "sun set behind" and they will find that more than ten thousand sites, including modern universities astronomy sites "teaches us that the Sun sets" behind the mountains, clouds, trees, etc. If you wish you may search for "sun sets in" OR "sun set in."

5.   Ali Sina, instead of accepting his opponent as he is; he pretends what he should be and he debates with the imagined "little devil" character in his mind. He is like a cheap spelling program that cannot distinguish between screw and escrow, between hislamic and Islamic, between hadith and Quran!

In our one-month debate, he confused me with some of his Hislamic opponents. Or he prayed that I would just devolve to one of them so he could pull my beard smack my medieval head with those volumes of holy trash! Bad luck!

For instance, I do not separate the verses of the Quran as Meccan on Medinan verses. Again, he was confusing me with Sunnis. The Quran does not contain such a distinction and a believer must follow ALL the verses of the Quran.

Ali Sina uses the common 6 STEPS to reach TO THE POWER OF 666, which I have explained in an article published at 19.org.

6.   Ali broke his promises frequently.

Ali Sina PROMISED me several times that he would not use hadith and other dubious sources in his criticism of the Quran, but each time he sought a silly excuse to bring a truck-load of them. He was like an obese person breaking his diet not to eat junk food.

Though he knew that I would not continue this debate if he one more time break his promise of not copying and pasting from the hearsay sources, yet he went a head and filled his latest response with those trash. I finished my previous response with the following challenge:

"I challenge you to use scientific evidence and reason for your cricticsm of the Quran. I will NOT continue debate with you if you ONE MORE TIME refer to or quote from hadith, syra or tafseer books that I have rejected vehemently since 1986. If you cannot criticize the Quran without referring to hearsays of hearsays, then you will be proving to the entire world that you lost this debate against someone who followed the Quran alone."

7.   Ali Sina is unaware that he might be heading to Prison:

Ali Sina should be glad that he is in a free and secular country that people are not penalized because of their opinion or belief, how outrageous and stupid they might be. Ali Sina is thinking that he can hide his identity behind the computer screens and continue spew the message of hatred and genocide against Muslims. However, things might change. What goes around will come around.

He has already mesmerized some impressionable imbeciles and they might soon start following his advice and committing acts like Nazi or KKK members. They will kill innocent Muslims and their children in the name of "spiritual humanism." Ali Sina then will find himself in the defendant seat rather than covering his face behind computer screens. I will be there to present the jury with his "subhuman" remarks. I hope this will never happen, but if history any indication, Ali Sina's bloody dream might become his nightmare.

8.   Ali Sina is a modern crusader, masquerading as a humanist.

Ali has double standard. While he exaggerates and generalizes the atrocities committed by Hislamic fanatic terrorists, he bypasses the bigger atrocities committed by Evilgelical Christians and Zionist Jews (I exclude some of the early Zionists) and their proxy forces.

I wish Ali Sina could be brave enough to stand against the terror, destruction and massacres inflicted by Evilgelical crusaders and their Zionist allies as he stands against the terror, destruction and massacres inflicted by Taliban and Hislamic mullahs.

In his latest answer, he briefly stated that he was against all violence and terrorism; but that was it. So far, he has never condemned a single concrete example of violence, torture, terror, occupations, unjustified wars, and atrocities conducted by Evangelical-Zionist alliance or their proxies.

Modern crusaders, allied with big corporations are orchestrating a deceptive propaganda and misinformation campaign to promote their bloody cause to colonize new lands and convert more people.

Modern Crusaders distort verses of the Quran, exaggerate the deeds of terrorists and even attribute some events motivated by nationalism or other motives to islam. Their propaganda machine never referred to the Serbs as Christian Rapists and Christian Terrorists. Their propaganda machine never referred to the torturer and murderer Zionist occupying forces as Jewish Terrorists, or Jewish Murderers. Their propaganda machine never acknowledges the Christian church and zeal behind Nazi crimes. However, they frequently associate any act of terrorism to Islam and Muslims. Furthermore, they cleverly managed to depict the freedom-seeking victims of brutal occupying forces as aggressors in conflicts such as Chechnya, or Palestine.

They try to depict islam as a violent religion, thereby seeking to justify their own terror, massacres, pre-emptive wars, which are cunningly promoted in a euphemistic language through their propaganda machines. They don't kill and terrorize civilians; they just produce collateral damage and they just perform colorful shows of "shock and awe." They do not torture prisoners; they either interrogate them or turn them to anecdotals. They do not destroy cities; they do surgical and smart operations. They do not occupy others' lands; they liberate them. They do not take revenge; they take justice to their enemies. Thus, media is cleverly used to hypnotize masses and get their support for neo-colonialism. The ruling class in democracies use media to "manifacture concent." In order to plunder the resources of other countries, greedy corporations and their unholy allies replace one dictator after another, create wars and conflicts, undertake covert operations, and if they are bored, they play liberation games for fun and profit, big profit.

Crusaders have directly participated or supported many atrocities and wars in the last millennium; they have killed many more innocent people than their counterpart Sunny or Shiite warmongers. Inquisition, crusades, witch-hunt, World War I and II, holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Phillipines, Korea, Vietnam, Nikaragua, Arjantine, Iraq are just few words in the long list of wars and massacres that are committed or supported by those who call themselves Christians. Nazis used the traditional Christian hatred of Jews as fuel and a twisted Cross (swastika) as the symbol for their racist ambitions. The list of British and American wars, occupations, massacres, slavery, covert operations that were conducted with the approval and support of the Christian church or masses is too long and too gruesome. You can still find many Christians justifying the biggest terrorist attack in the history, the destruction of two big cities with their hundreds of thousands civil population, as a retaliation to the Japanese attack to an American military base. American government has not apologized humanity for this horrific and cowardly act of terror.

The mentality of these Crusaders is no different from those of al-Qaida militants who justified the destruction of the World Trade Center as retaliation to the American support for the Israeli's racist policy of occupation, massacres and terror in Palestine. If Ali Sina lived in Afghanistan, with is hatemongering and pro-genocide mentality, he would be a Taliban or Al-Qaida leader.

I defended Ali Sina:

Someone who supported me in debates with others, posted information about Ali Sina's website and his affiliation with FFI, an Evangelical organization. Not knowing that the information was available in public, I condemned his action with harsh words:

"Exposing" or more accurately unveiling the identity or whereabouts of a person who is out there not to create a personal cult, but to debate important theological issues with great political and social ramification is irrelevant.

But, it is more than irrelevant, it is irresponsible and even evil, since it may jeopardize the live of a person whose all crime is to express his faith and opinion. Putting the life of such a person at risk contradicts diametrically with what I stand for. I stand for freedom of faith and expression. If God Almighty let even Satan express himself and let people choose whatever religion, opinion, philosophy, or faith they want, then it would be against God's system and will to create a hostile environment and conditions that would suppress dissent and oppress some people because of their belief or disbelief.

So, I condemn the acts of those who want to indulge in detective or police work, rather than intellectual debate.

If I want freedom and security for myself, I have to want the same thing for others, including my enemies who are not in act and mindset of physical hostility. To do the opposite is hypocrisy.

I believe that Ali Sina's voice, regardless of its truth-value, is precious and should be protected. We cannot find truth without people like Ali Sina.

Personally, I do not care a bit, whether Evilgelical organizations, Zionist organizations, CIA, or any other power pays or uses Ali Sina. To me, it is not relevant and important, since Ali Sina is raising important issues, and voicing important problems with a religion that is followed by more than a billion people.

We are all brothers and sisters from Adam and Eve. We cannot be muslims (submitters to God alone, and men of peace) if we do not act like humans. To be a human, and care about the life of every single human being is a prerequisite of being a muslim. I have no connection with those who ignore and violate this sacred bond among human beings, a bond that was established by our Lord and Creator in the moment and fabric of our creation.

Edip Yuksel

I Scolded Ali Sina

But, after learning that the information was public and no additional harm could be done by something already given to the public by Ali Sina himself, I criticized Ali Sina and his attack dogs for accusing and insulting the person who posted that information:

Dear Ali Sina:

It seems that your hatred and emotions have turned you to those who you claim to hate.

Here is the difference between you and me:

I do not ally with a vampire or vampires to kill another vampire. I do not ally with Evilgelical Christians (you know which Christian groups I am referring to) who are supportive of wars and invasions that have been taking the lives of so many innocent people. I cannot. Throughout history they have been on the wrong side; they have been involved in many bloody and dirty tragedies in history.

However, it seems that you are following the Machiavellian path of St. Paul and you will accept any alliance to dehumanize all Muslims and making them the subject of another Holocaust. Your mindset and mission is no different from Hitler.

The guy who posted information allegedly proving your connection with Christians might have endangered your life, but with your propaganda of hatred and general condemnation, you are putting the lives of millions and perhaps billions of people at risk. You even show the audacity to put me in the same category of terrorists! I very rarely use this word. But, I think you deserved until you notice your problem: "shame on you, Ali Sina!"

It is hypocritical to applaud the massacres, terrorism, occupations, exploitations, covert operations around the world supported by super powers and its supportive Evilgelical Christian organizations, while condemning the terrorism, violence committed by a group of Sunni or Shiite extremists. This is a diabolic double standard!

If you are a humanist as you claim, you should join me to fight ANY act of terrorism, violence, injustice, regardless the identity or religion of the criminal.

Justice and peace cannot be accomplished by holding one hand of the multy-handed Devil against another hand. You become just a pawn.

I condemned the action of the person who tried to "expose" you, and similarly I condemn the actions of USA-Inc's secret agents that have secretly kidnapped and tortured many innocent people in Guatanamo Bay, Iraqi Abu Gharib, Egyptian or Saudi prisons used by the USA-Inc.

Edip Yuksel

What others say about Ali Sina and his cause?
Finally, I would like to finish this last article with a potpourri of impression by various visitors of faithfreedom.org. You will find the SURPRISE NOTE in the end of these excerpts:

A review from a seasoned visitor:
Over the years, as both a non-muslim participant in the forum and an avid reader, I have watched this site evolve. It began as a rationalist critique to LITERAL readings of the Quran, originally derived from one man's journey out of Islam - Ali Sina, the sites founder - to a compendium of contributions arraigned against Islam from "ex-muslims", religionists of various hues, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists etc etc. While some of the better critiques are well constructed on a reading of the associated texts, none of the arguments are really informed by a believers SEMANTIC on the texts proferred. Such treatments, in the final analysis, must be considered faulty, for they do not admit an adherents view to "breathe life" into the texts concerned. There have been numerous debates on the forum of this site between muslims and non-muslims, but the modus of the dialogue is to hammer the muslim opposition into a corner on some issue of contention and then to discredit them as "inhuman" etc if they have a view that differs from the prevailing view on the forum. The dialogue is forced down to the lowest common denominator and does not emerge from there. Psychologically manipulative tools of mockery, contempt, shaming and thinly veiled hate are employed to batter dissenters. The site has decayed down to a one-point agenda, that of being ideologically opposed to Islam. Thus, it is not what it claims to be - rationalist - but really, an ideological site of it's own, defined in anti-thesis to Islam. And while it is denied by participants, the site has become a conduit for jaundiced views and hate towards Islam and it's adherents.

This review is an honest appraisal of how I view the site as an ongoing, non-muslim, agnostic participant. The site, while still containing a large amount of rationally well argued treatises against Islam, appears to have succumbed to an ideological fanaticism of it's very own. Even sympathetic dissent is dismissed as "PC" or being the product of "weak-mindedness" and ridiculed without examination. Such are the trademarks of a cult in methodology. I remain a participant, to study what I consider to be the interesting phenomenon of an internet site being the core of the formation and reinforcement of a cultish mentality. Take note of this if you wish to visit or participate in this site.

A Pioneer site:
faithfreedom.org is a very honest web site telling the whole truth about islam and it's violent teachings. Most islam apostates lives is threatened by fanatics. This site gives them a chnace to speak out for their rights and tell the true story of oppressions of islam as it is.

Nursery of Fascism: Disguised Voice of Christian Far Right:

Faith Freedom International (FFI) , a self-styled "rationalist" website, preaches: "A good Christian becomes Mother Teresa; but a good Muslim becomes Khomeinii and Osama." What a facile analogy! Let someone enlightern FFI that a "good" Christian can also become Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler was faithful Catholic after all and wanted all women to attend Church punctually( a historical fact). Adolf Hitler did not exist in isolated continuum of European history. The Jewish holocaust of Nazi Germany was merely rerun of systematic pogrom of Jews conducted by pious Christians for two millenia. All of these Christians were also "good and faithful" Christians. It is the Christian holy figures like "Saint" Augustine and Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) who had written testaments of santimonious hate against Jews that led to genocides against them by pious lay Chrisitans. So FFI's claim that Islamic piety only produces evil like Osama and Christian piety produces good like Mother Teresa is not only ignorant but entirely stupid in light of recorded history. In Pakistan there is one Maulana Edhi, a pious Muslim, whose humanitarian work has earned him recognition the world over much on the lines of Mother Teresa. He is often referred by media as "Islamic Mother Teresa". Obviously , FFI has got it all wrong! Christian piety also produces Martin Luthers, Hitlers, Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of the world and Islamic piety is also capable of producing Maulana Edhis, Rumis and Shams, etc. Things in the real world do not exist in such black and white oversimplification as FFI is propagating.

Please do not take me to be some disgruntled Muslim. I am not even remotely Islamic to have any soft corner for it. I am normal 43 year old agnostic person (with Western ethnic background) who happens to have travelled and read a lot. FFI is no rationalist website but a rather motley collection of self-seeking third world "intellectuals" and elements of Christian far right in West who have happened to become bedfellows for political reasons. This website's agenda stands diametically opposite to the minority interests in Western countries (let all blacks, Jews, Hindus,Sikhs and New Agers who visit this site be cautioned along with Muslims). FFI is firmly against religious and ideological pluralism in politics as well as culture. The heavy element of Christian apologists, and people with evangelical leanings disguised as "rationalists", make this website suspicious to its core. One would not be surprised if FFI's connection with Christian Coalition or a similar lobby would be fully exposed. FFI is catering to the agenda of the malevolent right wing forces in America who want to designate all non-Christian ideologies (that also includes all New Age movements) as cults and thus prepare a fabricated case for their marginalization in the Western world. If you are not a Christian with a Western ethnic background, please be extremely wary of this website. This is a site for Pat Robertsons of America where they can pretend to be "rationalists" to fool the gullible multitudes. Quite unsuccessfully , alas! Almost all of FFI's cheerleaders , supposedly "rationalists", are derived from Christian far right and similar backgrounds. This website is a nursery of fascism on the web. Don't trust its pretensions to the contrary. Stay away from this hate trap! Today Muslims are its targets. Tommorrow, all other minorities would be on its hit list. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to perceive this. So beware!

This site has it all!, December 14, 2003

Faithfreedom should continue its journey:
I am a secular humanist. Though I do not subscribe with Ali's view, I think Fithfreedom should continue it's jourey. It is indeed a very rare and couageous effort from muslim comunity.

We should be grateful that Ali Sina exists:
This site, to the contrary of the other reviewers, is one of the only accesible resources that people can access by former Muslims. The articles go through various aspects of Islam, Islamic countries, and Islamic life as experienced by people. I for one am glad that this site exists because there is a forum where views can be aired without fear, daily updates with news articles on the web, and op-eds on important issues that concern everybody. Ali Sina is not out to kill people or hurt anybody, as some other reviewers have claimed. It is a small and growing community of people from Muslim origin (by birth) and converts who have left.

This site is very important because they are not allowed to live in Muslim countries because they are supposed to be killed. They can only live safely in the Western countries where their rights are protected and their lives. We should be grateful that Ali Sina and others like him exist otherwise we would not know the danger we are in.

Cheap attention seeker:
I honestly believe that Ali(as) Sina has a personality disorder in which he collects contact with famous people and he gets off on this. He immediately publicises his contact with those of high reknown or high repute. He has debated/interviewed the younger Pahlavi, James Randi, etc and I believe that he is just a cheap attention seeker.

His arguments are on the whole weak, and he is completely insincere? Here is an excerpt that i found amusing - Ali(as) Sina is telling a 'friend' :

"I told him about a strange incidence that happened to myself when I was a university student. One summer night I was reading a book while my sister was sleeping in the adjacent room. I heard noises coming from her room. She was groaning as if having a nightmare. I went to her room to wake her up. What I saw took me by surprise. I saw a globe of orange light about three feet in diameter suddenly moving away from my sister's bed and hovering in the middle of the room. I stood at the door watching this strange thing. I got the impression that this thing was also startled. This thing seemed to have a thought of its own. For a moment we both were paralyzed gazing at each other. Then the thing zoomed out of the window and disappeared in the adjacent field practically in thin air. I woke up my sister and told her what I saw. She said she was having a bad dream and in her dream a bad being wanted to hurt her while someone good had come to her rescue. Well, people have dreams and nothing is strange about that. However, what to me seemed to be strange is that I possibly saw one of the protagonists of my sister?s dream. Even if that is not the case, that thing was strange on its own. "

Seeing orange balls of light after hearing his sister moan in the next room... hmmm.

========

The SURPRISE NOTE and THE GREAT PROPHECY:

I recommend every person who followed my debate with Ali Sina (which is available at both 19.org and faithfreedom.org) to share this note and this instruction under the "The Surprise Note and The Great Prophecy" with as many people as possible. You may share this encoded message with your friends via email or you may post it in other forums.

As the audience knows, Ali Sina has finally unveiled his real mission; promoting genocide against ALL Muslims, in a much bigger scale than even Hitler or Stalin had envisioned.

I will declare the KEY of the coded note, and decode it on February 19, 2005 at 19.org/forum. With the original text unveiled, you will witness a fulfillment of a great prophecy regarding Ali Sina and ditto-heads. The issue will not end with the fulfillment of the prophecy; in fact, it will just start.

If Ali Sina is scared from this message, his fear will not help him. Even if he hires several bodyguards and inform FBI, CIA, al-Qaida, Taliban, or his Evilgelical friends; he will still not be able to escape from the fulfillment of this prophecy! He and his cult members might speculate with paranoia and fabricate any lie they want. Their deception and lies will be exposed one more time the day of the prophecy: February 19. Wait and I am too waiting.

Here is a portion of the great prophecy:

U-N-D-P-R-W-J-Q-Q-W-G-U-A-B
A-N-V-B-Q-P-B-U-R-F-F-G-F-M
R-W-Z-F-W-G-W-A-N-V-B-Z-M-D
N-A-J-P-J-M-S-G-U-Q-I-H-E-F
V-M-"L-I-L-E-N-F-K-M-U-F-X-J
I-N-J-N-D-S-N-P-C-Z-J-V-U-X
U-D-E-B-Q-Y-F-Q-N"-A-X-L-X-Q
P-X-E-N-L-F-M-V-V-L-P-U-Q-Y
E-R-T-V-W-U-T-A-F-Z-B-W-D-J
G-A-A-C-X-F-N-B-W-L-I-R-D-T
H-P-Z-B-Q-P-H-B-V-H-S-H-T-J
A-B-A-W-H-A-G-I-R-G-V-V-F-T
N-U-D-U-K-Q-U-R-X-H-M-H-A-A
R-A-A-U-L-E-S-V-W-W-U-H-Q-S


Peace,
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: TheNabi on January 18, 2005, 09:46:33 AM
Salaam Edip,

Nice article, but under some testimonies there is something weird, like this person is mentioned twice.

Quote from: "1st One"
Nursery of Fascism:

Please do not take me to be some disgruntled Muslim. I am not even remotely Islamic to have any soft corner for it. I am normal 43 year old agnostic person who happens to have travelled and read a lot. This man is no rationalist but some rag intellectual from third world in secret league with extreme right in West for some narrow personal agenda. This man's agenda stands diametically opposite to the minority interests in Western countries. This man is firmly against religious and ideological pluralism in politics as well as culture. One would not be surprised if FFI's connection with Christian Coalition or a similar lobby would be fully exposed. FFI is catering to the agenda of the malevolent right wing forces in America who want to designate all non-Christian ideologies (that also includes all New Age movements) as "cults" and thus prepare a fabricated case for their banishment. If you are neither a Christian nor a white, please be extremely wary of this website. This is a site for Pat Robertsons of America where they can pretend to be "rationalists" to fool the gullible multitudes. Quite unsuccessfully , alas! Almost all of Ali Sina's cheering minions are derived from Christian far right. This website is nursery of fascism on the web. Don't trust its pretensions to the contraty. Stay away from this hate trap!




Quote from: "2nd One"
Nursery of Fascism: Disguised Voice of Christian Far Right:

Please do not take me to be some disgruntled Muslim. I am not even remotely Islamic to have any soft corner for it. I am normal 43 year old agnostic person (with Western ethnic background) who happens to have travelled and read a lot. FFI is no rationalist website but a rather motley collection of self-seeking third world "intellectuals" and elements of Christian far right in West who have happened to become bedfellows for political reasons. This website's agenda stands diametically opposite to the minority interests in Western countries (let all blacks, Jews, Hindus,Sikhs and New Agers who visit this site be cautioned along with Muslims). FFI is firmly against religious and ideological pluralism in politics as well as culture. The heavy element of Christian apologists, and people with evangelical leanings disguised as "rationalists", make this website suspicious to its core. One would not be surprised if FFI's connection with Christian Coalition or a similar lobby would be fully exposed. FFI is catering to the agenda of the malevolent right wing forces in America who want to designate all non-Christian ideologies (that also includes all New Age movements) as cults and thus prepare a fabricated case for their marginalization in the Western world. If you are not a Christian with a Western ethnic background, please be extremely wary of this website. This is a site for Pat Robertsons of America where they can pretend to be "rationalists" to fool the gullible multitudes. Quite unsuccessfully , alas! Almost all of FFI's cheerleaders , supposedly "rationalists", are derived from Christian far right and similar backgrounds. This website is a nursery of fascism on the web. Don't trust its pretensions to the contrary. Stay away from this hate trap! Today Muslims are its targets. Tommorrow, all other minorities would be on its hit list. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to perceive this. So beware!

This site has it all!, December 14, 2003


Joe
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Damon on January 18, 2005, 10:13:40 AM
Peace Edip,

GOD Bless you for your efforts!! If you recall from  a prior conversation you and I had, I told you that's exactly what Ali Sina is about and that's exactly what I said would be the end result of this debate.

Everyone should see the only post I made in the thread Edip started inviting everyone to join the debate at faithfreedom.org.

That Ali Sina chump is one of the worst types of people.

Peace.

GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 18, 2005, 02:57:30 PM
Quote
No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of the Quran that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human.


Yeezevee highlights the above statement in Ali's blanked condemnation of Muslims as subhuman.

Now let us analyze that statement.

First, answer me dear Yeezevee, "When will you stop eating raw hotdogs?" This question is called "complex question" in legal or philosophical terminology. It is a logical fallacy. Your friend Ali Sina's statement above too is a complex statement infected by logical fallacy.

First, NOT A SINGLE VERSE of the QURAN calls for killing and murder of INNOCENT people. This hallucination of Ali Sina is embedded as a fact in his allegation. With this cheap twist, he wants to condemn any Muslim who confesses belief in the Quran.

To make it clearer for you let me, with a little modification, translate it to a language that you will understand better:


Quote
"You may say but the supporters of FFF are humans too. Is having the human appearance enough to make us humans? The sign of humanity is in our humanness. No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of ALI SINA that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human. Therefore, this is a war between humanity and a spiritually underdeveloped subhuman species. The mission of FFF is barbaric. Their thoughts are beastly. They have no human conscience and they are preying on us humans. So this is a war between humans and FFF."


Did you like this as a supporter of FFF (reminds me KKK)? Though the Quran (not hadith and other trashy story books) NEVER calls for killing the innocent, but here Ali Sina called for the killing of ALL those who believe in the Quran.

Obviosly, here you outnumber me, and you will repeatedly post what you are instructed to do by your cult leader, but a ray of fact will destroy your darkness!

PS: A proverb states that if you want to know someone look at his friend. Interestingly, the Sunni "sbwus" is siding with you against me; whenever he sees you attacking me he is joining you with his saliva leaking from his mouth. This is another evidence that you are dancing on the same circle, that while you are trying to put as much distance between each other, whenever you see me, you meet each other at one point of THAT CIRCLE. When a monotheist delivers the message all idolworsihpers join their forces. Like your sunni evil twins, your circle is made of the same ingredients: ignorance, fanaticism, hatred and sefl-deception.

PS2: Thank you the Nabi for pulling my attention to that repeatition.

PEACE,
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 19, 2005, 07:27:34 AM
Peace be upon you Edip,

I have been away from the site for a moment, I see that Ali Sina was not able to defend his position, that is expected. My question is, please elaborate on the following;

Quote
I will declare the KEY of the coded note, and decode it on February 19, 2005 at 19.org/forum. With the original text unveiled, you will witness a fulfillment of a great prophecy regarding Ali Sina and ditto-heads. The issue will not end with the fulfillment of the prophecy; in fact, it will just start.

If Ali Sina is scared from this message, his fear will not help him. Even if he hires several bodyguards and inform FBI, CIA, al-Qaida, Taliban, or his Evilgelical friends; he will still not be able to escape from the fulfillment of this prophecy! He and his cult members might speculate with paranoia and fabricate any lie they want. Their deception and lies will be exposed one more time the day of the prophecy: February 19. Wait and I am too waiting.


I was lost as to what that meant. Can you please elaborate?
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 19, 2005, 01:54:20 PM
Dear Idolfree:

I think, I was clear. This was a note for Ali Sina meant to be decoded one month later. If you are lost, it is because you were expected to get lost. You will find yourself a month later, if you remember where you were lost :wink:

Peace,
Edip
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: esimsek100 on January 19, 2005, 11:37:17 PM
Peace

Edip just wondering if you did in fact answer Ali Sina's question of your usage of hadiths?

By that I mean referralls to such things as Mohammed receiving the message at 40 years of age, etc, etc.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 19, 2005, 11:41:14 PM
Peace be upon you Edip,

WHat kind of game is this? Did the God say to beat around the bush? Or did the God say that righteousness is coming through the proper doors?

The God says do not conceal the truth when you know.

Do you wish for Ali Sina to have an accident before Feb and not get a chance to witness your great prophecy and not have a chance to be changed by this "parting of the sea/flood/brimstone and fire"?


Is this prophecy based on a 19 formula?
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Ash Shuura on January 20, 2005, 02:14:33 AM
Quote from: "idolfree1"

WHat kind of game is this? Did the God say to beat around the bush? Or did the God say that righteousness is coming through the proper doors?



Peace all,

If I were to come up with an analogy I remember those nature programmes in the way they get the poisson from a poissonous snake. They grab it by the back of its neck and dig the fangs of the snake into a jar with a baloon stretched across its top. Patience is required to collect sufficient amount of possion to make its antidote.

Do I need to say more, or may I leave it to your imagination...? :D

P.S. Pure speculation on my behalf. I think I'll wait for Feb 19th.

regards
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 21, 2005, 12:30:15 AM
Peace be upon you Ash Shura,

I guess we will all have to wait since Edip seems to want to hold us in suspense until Feb NINETEENTH.

Although the God states not to conceal the truth when you know.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Ash Shuura on January 21, 2005, 01:30:41 AM
Quote from: "idolfree1"
Although the God states not to conceal the truth when you know.


Salaam,

We should also give him the benefit of the doubt. I haven't verified this but I suppose the God does not ask us to let the cat out of the bag when there is the question of allowing the disbelivers to deceive themselves.

regards
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 21, 2005, 01:43:17 AM
Peace be upon you Ash Shura,

Quote
We should also give him the benefit of the doubt. I haven't verified this but I suppose the God does not ask us to let the cat out of the bag when there is the question of allowing the disbelivers to deceive themselves.



Isn't confining the cat in the bag CONCEALING THE TRUTH?

I just finished saying that the God states NOT TO CONCEAL the truth when you know. THAT is verified.

Rejectors will  always decieve themselves, even if you show the ALL OF THE SIGNS IN THE UNIVERSE, says the God's message. SO do you know see clearly? Or do you think that if Edip tells us what will happen, that the rejectors have a power equal to the God's to stop the so called prophecy?
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 21, 2005, 02:41:26 AM
Quote
Peace be upon you Edip,

WHat kind of game is this? Did the God say to beat around the bush? Or did the God say that righteousness is coming through the proper doors?

The God says do not conceal the truth when you know.

Do you wish for Ali Sina to have an accident before Feb and not get a chance to witness your great prophecy and not have a chance to be changed by this "parting of the sea/flood/brimstone and fire"?

Is this prophecy based on a 19 formula?

...

I guess we will all have to wait since Edip seems to want to hold us in suspense until Feb NINETEENTH.

Although the God states not to conceal the truth when you know.

...

Isn't confining the cat in the bag CONCEALING THE TRUTH?

I just finished saying that the God states NOT TO CONCEAL the truth when you know. THAT is verified.

Rejectors will always decieve themselves, even if you show the ALL OF THE SIGNS IN THE UNIVERSE, says the God's message. SO do you know see clearly? Or do you think that if Edip tells us what will happen, that the rejectors have a power equal to the God's to stop the so called prophecy?
 

Dear Idolfree:

Perhaps I spent more time with Ali than he deserved and I delivered the message perhaps with too many words than it was necessary.

However, you seem to have no experience or personal taste with a sophisticated debate. Perhaps, you would chasite Abraham too for playing a prank on idolworshipers. Perhaps, you have some problems with verses telling disbelievers "wait, I am waiting too."

May be, because of your allergy to the number 19 you have allergy to mee too and you want to find an excuse just to pick on me.

Listen, my too serious and too grumpy old friend :D  :

My debate was partially theological, philosophical and partially an intellectual game, since my main opponent was not a serious investigator of the truth, but a "father of flame." My "prophetic" coded message had several goals. Here are some of them:

To create suspense and interest.

To move the debate from his forum, which is invested with foul-mouthed trolls, to my forum, which moves obscene or pure adhominem attacks to another forum called TRASH.

To start a new debate on a topic that was not debated but repeatedly referred to by innuendos and mockery.

To get the upper hand in a war.

You might not understand any of this. That's okay. I think we have different ways of eating yoghurt. That's okay too.

Peace,
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 21, 2005, 05:34:20 AM
Peace be upon you Edip,

Quote
Perhaps I spent more time with Ali than he deserved and I delivered the message perhaps with too many words than it was necessary.

However, you seem to have no experience or personal taste with a sophisticated debate.


And your information is based on what?


Quote
Perhaps, you would chasite Abraham too for playing a prank on idolworshipers.


A prank? Is that what you call what Abraham did? SInce when does the prankster ANNOUNCE HIS PLANS?

(21:57) "And by The God, I will manipulate/fight/(destroy) your idols/statues , after you turn giving (your) backs."  

Abraham told them EXACTLY what he intended to do, how does that qualify as a prank? So Abraham , KNOWING that they knew he did it told them the BIGGEST ONE did it, to expose thier foolish ideas.

Please tell me how your prophecy relates to Abrahams strategy. And so that you are sure, since you want to try to DEFINE my thinking to  everyone, NO, I would not chastise Abraham  for his wise strategy. Only one blinded by an idol would do such a thing.


Quote
Perhaps, you have some problems with verses telling disbelievers "wait, I am waiting too."


No, I have no problem waiting for the effect that follows every cause. I have no problem waiting  to see who was correct in thier philosophy and who was wrong. But you are trying to rework the context  to make it seem like we should wait for some prophecy, and that is what I have a problem with.


Quote
May be, because of your allergy to the number 19 you have allergy to mee too and you want to find an excuse just to pick on me
.

THis is a lot of maybes, a lot  of guessing.  I have an allegy to too  much cat hair in my eyes, thats the only allergy I can think of. Regarding "thier count", I have no allergy  to that, I understand it well as a TRIAL for rejectors. Regarding you, I have stated many times it is not personal, I disagree with your philosophy, YOU are just a vehicle for the philosophy that I reject. SO as long as you try to promote this 19 miracle, especially in a forum that I frequent, you  will see resistance to your plans.

I am all for mathematics, it plays a HUGE part in understanding this book(LIFE ITSELF). BUt it is not restricted to the number 19, all numbers are included in mathematics.

Quote
Listen, my too serious and too grumpy old friend  :


Please stop trying to define me. I am at peace, and persistent against falsehood. But yes, I am very serious about these topics discussed here, you should be too.

Quote
My debate was partially theological, philosophical and partially an intellectual game, since my main opponent was not a serious investigator of the truth, but a "father of flame." My "prophetic" coded message had several goals. Here are some of them:

To create suspense and interest.


Well  I hope you have a good ending to keep him there.

Quote
To move the debate from his forum, which is invested with foul-mouthed trolls, to my forum, which moves obscene or pure adhominem attacks to another forum called TRASH.


Yes, they are foul mouthed there, but does that mean one issues a prophecy  to TRICK THEM into going somewhere else? We should be those who have the INNER PEACE to deal with mere WORDS!  :D  Words! Thats all they are. Did Musa TRICK Pharoah to go to his house and "debate", or did he do it in front of those "foul mouthed trolls"? And even convinced some of them to see his way. At  the very least we are instructed to turn our bakcs on the ignorant and say PEACE, not trick anyone with a prophecy to happen on the NINETEENTH day of feb.

That suprises me from a man who claims to be MASTER DEBATOR and is in the midst of trying to get "free minds" to join with him knowing that many in free minds don't want anything to do with the 19 "miracle". But you chose to use that method to get Ali Sina in some "trap". I hope that all are paying attention to how you cannot be without  your partner, 19.


Quote
To start a new debate on a topic that was not debated but repeatedly referred to by innuendos and mockery.

To get the upper hand in a war.

You might not understand any of this. That's okay. I think we have different ways of eating yoghurt. That's okay too.


Although you repeatedly try to discredit my character, I understand very well what you  did, now that you have explained it further, and I disagree. Where is that example in our criterion?

Trickery and deciet? NO thanks, righteousness is attained by being straight foward, not applying smoke and screen tactics used by wicked governments.

YOu had no time to discuss salaat with me, but you have time to play tricks and games with Ali Sina.

Well, that your choice, peace be upon you  just the same.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 21, 2005, 07:16:42 AM
Dear idolfree:

First, Abraham did not tell them that he would breake the idols. He not only left them in suspense, he secretly broke ther small idols and suprised them. I am not exatcly sure about English cannotation of the word prank, but as far as I know, I can say what Abraham did was a philosophical prank, trick or trap, if you wish.

As for the reason why I am not willing to discuss the issue of Salat with you is because I do not want to give you the opportunity to use that debate to flame the division you are trying to promote.

I do enjoy debating with people. However, you should not decieve yourself that I am afraid of debating this issue with you; but I am trying to avoid an argument with someone who appears to be gripping a black-and-white sword of zeal in his hand ready to chop my head off. I am not scared of losing my head, but I am concerned that you might breake your sword from swinging it too recklessly and you may regret afterwords. If that fighter were someone that I considered my enemy, then I would go ahead and fight back with my rainbow colored sword. But, if I believe that the challenging person is someone I should consider my potential ally and brother, then I am hesitant to take that challenge. Do you understand? :idea:  

NOW:
Your prayer is for you; my prayer is for me.

TOMORROW:
When you cool down, we might debate the issue.

Peace,
Edip
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 21, 2005, 07:48:11 AM
Peace be upon you Edip,

Quote
Dear idolfree:


Somehow "dear" does not seem to match up with the greeting instructed by the God, but there is no compulsion.

Quote
First, Abraham did not tell them that he would breake the idols. He not only left them in suspense


(21:57) "And by The God, I will manipulate/fight/(destroy) your idols/statues , after you turn giving (your) backs."

(21:59-60) They said: "Who made/did that with our Gods? Surely he is from the unjust/oppressive." They said: "We heard a youth/adolescent mentioning them, is said to him, Abraham."

Will you still hold the view that Abraham did not tell them?

Quote
he secretly broke ther small idols and suprised them.


He told them exactly what he was going to do, they were suprised that he really did it because they assumed that everyone should FEAR thier gods. That is why when they saw that he really did it, they were able to figure out who had done it, they started to recall that Abraham TOLD THEM exactly what he was going to do.


Quote
I am not exatcly sure about English cannotation of the word prank, but as far as I know, I can say what Abraham did was a philosophical prank, trick or trap, if you wish.


I would call it a strategy, but how does it apply to what you did by  making a prophecy for feb 19th? Musa did not make a prophecy to get out of the debate witnessed by Firauns court. Since when is trickery the strategy used? The God's clear signs are enough.


Quote
As for the reason why I am not willing to discuss the issue of Salat with you is because I do not want give you the opportunity to use that debate to flame the division you are trying to promote.


Quote
I do like debating with people and do not decieve yourself that I am afraid of debating this issue with you


Where have I said you were afraid? My thoughts are that you are too focused on 19, not afraid, thats not a word I would choose for you.

Quote
but I am trying to avoid an argument with someone who appears to be gripping a black-and-white sword of zeal in his hand ready to chop off my head with it.


Nonsense, my message is PEACE, and can be clearly documented throughout this forum.


Quote
If that fighter were someone that I considered my enemy, then I would go ahead and fight back.


Well, in this forum, we understand the God's instructions of debating(hajja) and not arguing(jidala), so we debate to get at the truth of a matter. We don't describe it as fighting.

Quote
But, if I believe that the challenging person is someone I should consider my ally and brother, then I am hesitant to take that challenge. Do you understand?


No, based on the info I gave above. Perhaps you should stop looking at me as a "fighter" or a "challenging person" and it will clear your perception. Further, I do not ALLY with your philosophy of 19, just so we are clear on that.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: naxus on January 21, 2005, 08:46:06 AM
Peace to every one here by this post i will convey my message to bro yudip n idol free i think it will be very nice to have a debate on salat b/n u guys i think we will learn alot from both of u guys disscussion peace
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 21, 2005, 02:46:21 PM
Quote
That is why when they saw that he really did it, they were able to figure out who had done it, they started to recall that Abraham TOLD THEM exactly what he was going to do.


Dear idolfree:

You are misinterpreting the verses. Abraham never told them what he would do specifically or exactly. He told them that he would do a TRICK, TRAP, or A PLAN against their idols. The word KaYD, as you want us to believe, does not mean destroy, smash, break. Most likely they never expected him to break them; they expected something silly, as some people are expecting something silly from my "prophecy"!

They had no clue what he meant with it. Otherwise, they would most likely guard them day and night, imprison or banish Abraham before he fulfilled the act. You are insulting Abraham's intelligence by claiming that he told people that he was going to break their idols, risking his safety and success of his pedagoical plan. You are also undermining the devotion of idolworshipers to their idols; if they new exactly what Abraham was going to do, they would not sleep on his threat.

Besides, his people did not recall that Abraham was going to break their idols, they recalled that Abraham was talking against their idols. Recalling someone talking against something is different than recalling someone doing a particular act against something. You are confusing both.

Abraham gave them a VAGUE warning and surprised them by morning. What I am doing with Ali Sina is very similar to that.

As for Moses, are we required to parrot him? Are we limited with what Moses or another messenger did? I do not think so. I believe that as long as the means of delivering the message does not violate a divine principle, it is fine. Otherwise, using your logic, I can site the names of 27 messengers and their delivery of God's message and accuse you of following a wrong strategy by discussing God's message via computer; since none used the computer, except the most recent messenger who you deny. None of the messengers in the Quran asked his followers to mimick them or the acts of previous messengers.

I see that we have important methodological difference. You tend to even prohibit or reject the word DEAR as a greeting. I started having a good idea about your attitude, comprehension, and position on issues.

I guess we would not be able to work together as a united force. But, this does not mean we have to work against each other, eiether. Perhaps the best strategy is not discussing anything with each other. Of course, you are free to criticize me.

Peace,
Edip
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Idris on January 21, 2005, 02:50:47 PM
peace be upon all,

Quote
Your approach to the Quran, appears to be too literal


I swear to The God, I never thought I'd ever see anybody say this to you Kyle  :lol: Edip check around for his posts and it won't take you too long to see why
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 21, 2005, 02:59:31 PM
Dear Idris:

Without seing your answer and your quotation of my reference to idolfree's literal approach, I edited and deleted thath part. Not because I changed my mind or learned something about him, I just did not want to be too confrontational. Unfortunately, you snatched that sentence with a twitzer while I was deleting it; and now I am stuck with it :cry:

If idolfree (Kyle?) is not too literal then he is more complex than I thought. I wish I had time to learn more about him and analize his mind; but, unfortunately I am too busy these days.

Peace and blessings be to you and to idolfree.

PS: Why do you think that Idolfree is not starting his mails with Bismillah, like Solomon?

Edip
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: truth on January 21, 2005, 04:40:35 PM
Hi all,

I don't think that there is anything wrong with greeting someone in the normal way in English - I know the Koran says answer with an equal or better greeting - but there is nothing at all negative in 'dear'.


dear
adj. dear?er, dear?est

   1.
         1. Loved and cherished: my dearest friend.
         2. Greatly valued; precious: lost everything dear to them.
   2. Highly esteemed or regarded. Used in direct address, especially in salutations: Dear Lee Dawson.

   4. Earnest; ardent: ?This good man was a dear lover and constant practicer of angling? (Izaak Walton).
   5. Obsolete. Noble; worthy.
   6. Heartfelt: It is my dearest wish.


n.

   1. One that is greatly loved.
   2. An endearing, lovable, or kind person.


adv.

   1. With fondness; affectionately.


So I think pedantry is not called for. Undue attention to these formal rules with ostentation is also not a very admirable thing.

Whether it be 'peace' or 'dear' each is acceptable in my opinion.

Regards.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 22, 2005, 12:30:32 AM
Peace be upon you Edip,

Quote
You are misinterpreting the verses. Abraham never told them what he would do specifically or exactly. He told them that he would do a TRICK, TRAP, or A PLAN against their idols. The word KaYD, as you want us to believe, does not mean destroy, smash, break. Most likely they never expected him to break them; they expected something silly, as some people are expecting something silly from my "prophecy"!


Yes, the translation I used was off on the word Kayd, it correctly means "scheme/plan", but how does that change my position? Abraham told them clearly that he was going to scheme against thier idols. Yes or no?

Quote
They had no clue what he meant with it. Otherwise, they would most likely guard them day and night, imprison or banish Abraham before he fulfilled the act. You are insulting Abraham's intelligence by claiming that he told people that he was going to break their idols, risking his safety and success of his pedagoical plan.


You are insulting the FEARLESSNESS of the messengers.  Musa stood before Firaun and his court and challenged the enemy face to face, now you want us to believe that Abraham should have been scared and concealed the truth? YOU want us to beleive that Abraham should fear men instead of the God? Did you not read the verse? He told them he would execute his plan WHEN THEY TURNED THIER BACKS. True, they did not know he would break them, but he told them CLEARLY  he was going to scheme against them.


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You are also undermining the devotion of idolworshipers to their idols; if they new exactly what Abraham was going to do, they would not sleep on his threat.


They underestimated the messenger of the God and must have took him for a joke, because he told them clearly he had a scheme for when they turned thier backs.


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Besides, his people did not recall that Abraham was going to break their idols, they recalled that Abraham was talking against their idols. Recalling someone talking against something is different than recalling someone doing a particular act against something. You are confusing both.



What was the "talk" that they heard?


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Abraham gave them a VAGUE warning and surprised them by morning. What I am doing with Ali Sina is very similar to that.


With a cross word puzzle? For the 19th of Feb?

Quote
As for Moses, are we required to parrot him?


We are instructed to follow the examples set for us by the messengers.

Quote
Are we limited with what Moses or another messenger did?


NO, but the God is giving us guidance to follow, that is the best method.


Quote
I do not think so. I believe that as long as the means of delivering the message does not violate a divine principle, it is fine. Otherwise, using your logic, I can site the names of 27 messengers and their delivery of God's message and accuse you of following a wrong strategy by discussing God's message via computer; since none used the computer, except the most recent messenger who you deny.


Are you serious? First of all, a computer is a means of communication, just like writing a letter as Solomon did. Second, you calim rashad is a messenger, so how would I be violating according to YOUR position? You cant have it both ways. Lastly, I don't deny ANY messenger, but  you should understand that a person is only a messenger at the time they are speaking TRUTH, any other time they are just "Kyle, Edip, Rashad, etc"


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None of the messengers in the Quran asked his followers to mimick them or the acts of previous messengers.


Are the messengers examples for us to follow, yes or no?

Quote
I see that we have important methodological difference. You tend to even prohibit or reject the word DEAR as a greeting. I started having a good idea about your attitude, comprehension, and position on issues.


The God gave us a greeting that is BEST, because the goal is PEACE, so we wish those whom we come in contact with a greeting of PEACE to be upon them.

Quote
I guess we would not be able to work together as a united force.


United in what? Not 19, not salaat, not hajj, not ramadan, what would we be united on?

But I would ALWAYS work with you in that which promotes good, like charity, helping faith freedom understand that "muslims" are not the proper description for terrorists, etc. Basically, I help in all that is good.


Quote
But, this does not mean we have to work against each other, eiether.


Debating is not working againt each other. I am against the creation of sects, and I am agaisnt joining with a group that hold 19 as partner to the God, wether realized or not. I say that because when I was deep in that same trial, after Layth helped me to see my error, I stepped back and looked at my posts and articles and saw that I had 19's everywhere, when I escaped that the whole message started to open up. I hope that you will see the same.

Quote
Perhaps the best strategy is not discussing anything with each other. Of course, you are free to criticize me.


My critisisms are for your philosophy, not you. If I met you today I would hug you as a friend, I respect your struggle, but I long for the day that you shed the 19 partner and use your talents to help us.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 22, 2005, 12:38:17 AM
Peace be upon you  Idris and Edip,

 :D  Idris, Edip does not know me that well  :D


Quote
PS: Why do you think that Idolfree is not starting his mails with Bismillah, like Solomon?


Probably because I am here studying and debating, not writing letters to a Queen.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 22, 2005, 12:49:49 AM
Peace  be upn you Truth,

Quote
So I think pedantry is not called for. Undue attention to these formal rules with ostentation is also not a very admirable thing.

Whether it be 'peace' or 'dear' each is acceptable in my opinion.


Thank you for your opinion. Please tell me how you understand the following statement;

(58:8) ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what God does not greet you with it, and they say in their minds: "If only God tortures us because (of) what we say." ...

What was the greeting the God instructed us to say? We have to understand that we are supposed to be  creating a CULTURE , so that it can develop righteous beings devoted to PEACE.

That is why we say "Salaam"
That is why Jews say "Shalom"
That is why Ancinet  Egyptians said "Hetep"
That is why Christains say "Peace be with you, and also with you"

I don't really have a problem with "Dear", but I am pointing out that you can determine a lot of things by the WHAT PEOPLE SAY.

(47:30) (RK) If we will, we can expose them for you, so that you can recognize them just by looking at them. However, you can recognize them by the way they talk. GOD is fully aware of all your works.

So in conclusion, you are not under any compulsion by myself to say "Peace", but I will stick to the message of the God and continue to give the BEST greeting possible,knowing that what I say has an EFFECT, and is not meaningless.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: KGB on January 22, 2005, 04:26:19 AM
There are plenty of occassions I have noticed a clear favoritism to 19ers followers of false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah cult as they can get away with anything else including personal attacks.

The good which happened that Free Minds had make me a much more firm believer in God Almighty message and firm belief that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Last Prophet and Last Messenger.

The articles and posts which do idolized Rashad Al Khalifah and his faulty code 19 has driven me to much more close to Islam which btw I was drifting.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Grourself on January 22, 2005, 08:21:09 AM
Peace Truth,

Quote
I don't think that there is anything wrong with greeting someone in the normal way in English - I know the Koran says answer with an equal or better greeting - but there is nothing at all negative in 'dear'.

[4.86] And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.

The word rendered as greeting is HAYYA. This word means to give life. I understand this verse differently. Can anyone explain?
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 22, 2005, 01:43:15 PM
Quote
The articles and posts which do idolized Rashad Al Khalifah and his faulty code 19 has driven me to much more close to Islam which btw I was drifting.


What a lousy reason to stop drifting, KGB!

Strentghening fate by looking at the fault or perceived fault of a group, to me, is one of the most ridiculous way of continuing believing in something.

Let me illustrate your pathetic argument:

Let's assume, I believe that 2+3 is 7. But, I add two apples to three apples and count them and I do not get the number 7. I start drifting. Then, I learn that a fringe group believes that 2+3 is 5. I find it a faulty idea and I stop drifting. Now I believe that 2+3 is indeed 7 :D

No wonder you do not get the message of 19!

Peace,
Edip
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: KGB on January 23, 2005, 02:01:07 AM
Stupid idiotic analysis based on mockery and foolishness just like the code 19 illogical reasoning to prove it a miracle.

19ers are not the first or last enemy of the Prophet who God Almighty has commanded us to follow there were hadith writers who created doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an by including fabricated stories about goat chewing up two verses or some one named Imam Mehdi has the original Qur'an which has plenty more verses and chapters.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed messengership by calling himself better than Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and he was Jesus, Marry, Imam Mehdi, the promised hindus avtar according to me he was a mad man. Mirza had the same sologan as 19ers false Messenger Rashad Al Khalifah that he has come to unite Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus. So keep following the fase Messengers and prophets I am sure there will be plenty more coming. I am at peace following Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as commanded by God Almighty.

Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Ash Shuura on January 23, 2005, 06:57:23 AM
Quote
Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?


49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: tux on January 23, 2005, 08:13:47 AM
Peace KGB

Quote from: "KGB"
Stupid idiotic analysis based on mockery and foolishness...


Is this necessary?
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Edip Yuksel on January 23, 2005, 08:30:03 AM
Quote
Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?


This is just a hillarious question, since it is asked by KGB. (Do I need to tell what KGB stand for?).

Well, for myself, let me answer this question with answers that it deserves:

1. CIA would be much happier keeping people like in the middle east so that they could continue using you and your acts as pretext to exploit its resources.

2. My organization was first funded by BAHAIS, then MOSSAD, then KGB, then CIA, and in the near future we are hoping that we will get great funding from MARS.

Peace,
Edip
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: KGB on January 24, 2005, 12:46:00 AM
Quote from: "Ash Shuura"
Quote
Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?


49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.


Suspicions are honest concern after reading topics where people are trying to create doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an message. This suspicion virus created by false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah to justify deleting two verses from Qur'an and to prove code 19 a miracle. This suspicions regarding Qur'an message is growing and unfortunately Free Minds are playing a big role in promoting this sick idea of corruption of the message.

It is not spying. The messages are on the open discussion forum.

Backbite. Absolutely not. I said it right on your own forum even if I say this on different forums it would not be backbite simply because I am doing this for the purpose of keping the muslims informed about this rising fitna.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Olusanya on January 24, 2005, 02:40:52 AM
Salaam All,

One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition, wherein we begin to take sides as we can see in this thread. If indeed Islam is the way chosen for us by Allah, does it not stand on its own merit? Does Allah... or Hu's deen need champions for its cause? When we take sides in intellectual gymnastics, is that not fitna?

The structure of the Qur'an demonstrates many mathematical correspondences, the occurences of 19 being just one. Recognizing this does not make one an idolater, anymore than one who recognizes the metaphorical similarities between the Qur'an and the Matrix, both being examples of ijtahid [free-thinking].

Can we all not take our intellects/interpretations so seriously that it keeps us from being able to share each others understanding and experience?

Practice... makes perfect! The practice of Islam leads to Oneness and Unity, if our words and actions do not promote/lead to this result, we cannot claim to practice Islam, no matter how intellectually stunning or clever our debates/arguments/discussions may be.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 26, 2005, 07:38:35 AM
Peace be upon you Olusanya,

Quote
One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition,


I would disagree, it is when debating(hajja) turns into baseless (no proof) arguing (jidala) that causes the problem.

We CANNOT reject debating(hajja) , the God has included this in our system.

(6:83) And this (is) Our argument (hujjatuna), We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.

(2:197) ...wala jidala fee alhajji ...
And NO arguing in the debate...

Yes, there is nothing wrong with free thinking, but we need to start putting some proof behnd the statements, I am willing to PROVE my statements about symbolism. And by that , those who witness can see how the God proves the truth throuigh His words.

We do not take a number out of all the numbers and uphold it as if no other numbers are mentioned.

Symbolism is verified in the reading.
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: Olusanya on January 26, 2005, 08:49:42 AM
Peace idolfree,

I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end. It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.
In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2:197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse [maybe you can clarify your use for me]. I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point [I understand there is a possibility I may be wrong in my interpretation, please correct me if so], so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.
Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.
I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!
Title: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
Post by: idolfree1 on January 26, 2005, 11:38:25 AM
Peace be upon you Olusanya,

First, thank you for demonstrating the description of one who is peacefully submissive by trying to bring unity to the discussion.

Quote
I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end.


Thats why we must have faith in the unseen  :D

Actually, I don't even think there is any further debate. We are just waiting for Feb 19th to see the prophecy. My issues were people thinking they needed to join 19.org to gain some momentum. I have given my warnings about that based on my understanding. The only other debate I was interested in was salaat, but I have no interest anymore, because Edip has no time. So I will just continue with the discussions and debates already going on in that thread.

Quote
It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.


I will discontinue right now.


Quote
In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2:197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse [maybe you can clarify your use for me].


How do you understand the word "hajja"? I have a list somewhere on this forum of both words that are normally translated as "argue". They are "hajja" and "jidala". "Hajja" has been shown to mean "debating based on proof", where as "jidala" is "arguing with no evidence from Life(al kitaab)". I will try to find where I posted them. It was quite a while ago so the thread might be far down on the list.


Quote
I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point [I understand there is a possibility I may be wrong in my interpretation, please correct me if so], so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.


Well, I intend to stop here, but the reason for continuing to debate, if there was proof coming from both sides, would be to see how far the others argument could stand, but I do not see any proof coming, so I have no problem stopping.


Quote
Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.


We cannot both be presenting "truths", we both SHOULD be providing evidence, so we can get to the truth. We have to wait for Feb 19th to get the rest of Edips evidence.


Quote
I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.


I agree, debating should be fruitful, but many are just too afraid to be wrong. I hope that I have shown that I am willing to admit when I have been wrong and continue to do so.


Quote
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.


I guess we have a difference of opinion on "hajja"(debating). There are levels of understanding, those that are on higher levels must not conceal what was inspired to them. WHat is our purpose here if not to study and debate? Again , I liken it to martial arts, you have to practice your craft.

I think the issue might be HOW LONG do we debate, because Musa certainly debated the magicians, Abraham certainly debated his fathers traditions, etc.

Noah debated wrong (called to the God) day and night in secret and public. Unless it is though that my position is wrong, then I don't see where I error.


Quote
P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!


Thank you for the kind words, there are actually two threads, the very long one was something I wrote a while back, but my understandings have increased since then. So everything I wrote might not be exactly the same as before.  

I was thinking it is based on the book we call "Quran" because there are indeed references to certain verses, but  it is really deeper than that.