Free Minds

Family Issues => Parenting & Children => Topic started by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 01:26:21 AM

Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 01:26:21 AM
Peace

I think of beating of the kids as very unsensible ...


However i give them  a few hits/strikes( i dont know if i chose the right word) here and there but only in the case when one of them hits the other -  as a kind of retaliation...and a way to teach them that it is not good to applie violence to others

i would like to hear others opinions and particularly something on the topic from the scripture....

btw

What about women who are against beating of the women but beat their kids regularly for a simple and innocent  childlish acts disobediance?
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: idolfree1 on December 30, 2004, 02:35:01 AM
Peace be upon you Zlatan,

My cultural development makes me want to say a good "whoopin" every now and then keeps you in order, but in my experience as a father, I have NEVER had to lay my hand on my daughter, who is 10 years old. I will not say that a physical punishment may not be called for in extreme conditions, but we must start our kids of with the TRUTHFUL understanding that the MIND is the greatest weapon.

The wise argument wins over physical means every day, but we should always have back up ready.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Green Leaves on December 30, 2004, 03:52:55 PM
Peace,

Quote
i would like to hear others opinions and particularly something on the topic from the scripture....


For the love of God, don't hit your kids! A parent of mine (won't say mum/dad) used to hit me when I was growing up and now there's this "wall" between me and this parent of mine. I never talk that much to them, I don't discuss anything that's going on with me, I don't even make eye contact because that fear is still in my heart. All because of some stupid discipline today I, a 20 year old have no solid and normal relationship with one of my parent. That's pathetic. Its been a long time now and I doubt we'll ever be like a normal family, the older I get, the more wiered it'll seem to try and make things normal, especially now that I only see them during these holidays and live on campus for like the rest of 9 months. I am more open on this forum here with people I know so little about than I am with this parent of mine. In an year, we only say about 500 words to each year (if we are lucky).

When I have kids, I'll NEVER hit time or even yell at them, God Willing
Quote


What about women who are against beating of the women but beat their kids regularly for a simple and innocent childlish acts disobediance?


Beating a grown woman is completly different from beating a child. To begin with, your child is a part of you and if you beat him/her (which you really shouldn't) it isn't the same thing as beating someone you actually accepted before God to be an equal and lawful partner of life.

Take care and DONT beat your kids.

Quote
I have NEVER had to lay my hand on my daughter, who is 10 years old.


idolfree1, you have a 10 year old daughter?!? For some reason, I thought you were a teenager or something...hmmm, isn't the Internet a fascinating thing where people who otherwise would've never known each other communicate across great distances (making assumptions about the person they are communicating with!?)
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Elke on December 30, 2004, 08:58:57 PM
Very hairy issue!

I must admit that I have sometimes slapped my kids. It was usually when they just wouldn't obey and after averting them more than once of what I was going to do if they wouldn't do as I told them...

Now my daughter is 11 and I didn't need to go that far for years. Even my son (7) has not been slapped by me for I think at least two years and inchallah, I will not need this again. I did need this (light) physical punishment to establish clear limits, but wish I had been able to do without !


Greenleaves wrote
Quote
A parent of mine (won't say mum/dad) used to hit me when I was growing up and now there's this "wall" between me and this parent of mine.


Exactely the same for me! My parent  hit me hard even for things I didn't do on purpose, like breaking something. I was so afraid of this that I never even talked or answered this person and at sixteen just took of! But this has nothing to do with what happened with my kids - I try to not even speak harshly to them for things they did not do intentionally. There are degrees in everything...


Maasalama, Elke
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Elke on December 30, 2004, 09:04:15 PM
Salam again,

just a short story on how my daughter felt about my corrections...

When she was 4 and a half, my then husband had slapped he bottom once.
That was the only time he ever raised his hand on her!
I must admit, me being the one who took care of them all the time, it sure happended much more often with me.
At her 5th birthday (several months later), a friend of her asked if her parents were nice to her...answer : "My mother is the nicest mother that exists, but my dad slapped me!!!" :lol:

Elke
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: warda on December 30, 2004, 10:13:53 PM
Salam Elke, :lol: all
Quote
I must admit that I have sometimes slapped my kids. It was usually when they just wouldn't obey and after averting them more than once of what I was going to do if they wouldn't do as I told them...


I want to say that I really appreciate how sincere some free-minders are :)

And it was the same with me and my kids:

When my first daughter was in her "hard time" , when she was between 2 and 3 (people who have kids know what I'm talking about) sometimes gave her a little slap. Never more.
Same with her sister. When she used to get up from bed the 10th time, I used to give sometimes a light slap.  But even then I didn't feel good and I  accused myself of doing so.
But since they are older and stopped being so stressy I never did it again. Now, as my kids are growing older I really can not imagine to slap them again. I can talk to them and they understand me - that of course helps a lot!
Bye
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Green Leaves on December 31, 2004, 09:07:59 AM
Quote
At her 5th birthday (several months later), a friend of her asked if her parents were nice to her...answer : "My mother is the nicest mother that exists, but my dad slapped me!!!" Laughing


Motherly love! See, my mum is like a sponge, I annoy her (not that much) and she soaks it all in and says nothing back, but my dady is like a flame, I say one teeny, tiny "bad" thing and he yells sooo much at me.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: idolfree1 on January 04, 2005, 05:54:07 AM
Peace be upon you Green Leaves,

Quote
idolfree1, you have a 10 year old daughter?!? For some reason, I thought you were a teenager or something...hmmm, isn't the Internet a fascinating thing where people who otherwise would've never known each other communicate across great distances (making assumptions about the person they are communicating with!?)


 :lol:  I'll be 33 yrs old on March 28th.

This is a very interesting discussion. I am very happy that my mother spanked me, I don't believe  I deserved all of them, but i think they helped me to understand cause and effect.  Hatred over an event is an EMOTION. We are suppossed to get in control of the emotions. That is how Solomon got his "kingdom".  :D
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: SwedenMajidah on January 06, 2005, 06:06:16 AM
Salaam,

I sometimes slap my kids but I'm not proud of it but I only do it when they have going too far in disobeying.

I have seen some programs on TV "Super Nanny" and that program give me some idea how to treat a wild child without violence.

I believe that if you hit someone that person learn to hit others, yeah if a kid get a slap of his mother then he thinks it is ok to slap someone because mummy are doing it and she is a grown up.

To have eyecontact with your children and to hold them and use and angry voice if they are bad and use a mild and happy voice when they are good.

One of my kids are 3 and a half year and he is so naughty most of the time and I don't know why because I have treat all of my kids in the same way.

Patience more patience are needed that's for sure.

Peace
Sis Majidah
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: idolfree1 on January 06, 2005, 06:33:08 AM
Peace be upon you,

Quote
I believe that if you hit someone that person learn to hit others, yeah if a kid get a slap of his mother then he thinks it is ok to slap someone because mummy are doing it and she is a grown up.


Good point, we start learning by imitation.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: warda on January 06, 2005, 07:08:22 AM
Hi Majidah,

Quote from: "SwedenMajidah"
Salaam,

I have seen some programs on TV "Super Nanny" and that program give me some idea how to treat a wild child without violence.


This is Globalisation :lol:  So you have the Super Nanny in Sweden too? I've seen it here in Germany. And I learnd  how it COULD BE .What monsters other parents have, and what kind of angels I have in compare to the terrorists the "Super Nanny" dealt with.
I wrote down some ideas and tried them  since my little one (four years) just doesn't wanna go to bed, lay her head down and sleep just like her sister does. Of course we have the rituals, prayers, fairy-tale, a quite atmosphere... NOTHING HELPS  :(  she is jumping happily in her bed, singing, dancing,shaking her head with her long curly hair, singing ..... . finding thousands things she still needs... :?
She can't calm down, thats her problem. So sometimes she gets up up to ten times.  And sometimes I can't even be mad with her

Does anybody has the same problem and can give some advices?

The tired Mama
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zlatan on January 06, 2005, 11:50:20 PM
Quote from: "warda"
she is jumping happily in her bed, singing, dancing,shaking her head with her long curly hair, singing ..... . finding thousands things she still needs... :?
She can't calm down, thats her problem. So sometimes she gets up up to ten times.  And sometimes I can't even be mad with her

Does anybody has the same problem and can give some advices?

The tired Mama



I actually dont see that you even have a problem...you are a very lucky women -blessed by The God with a heathy, lively and according to the description given - very sweet child...

To  feel less tired just try thinking of thousands of those whose children are deadly sick or invalids or deaf or blind etc...

Also, do not forget to try giving birth to an another children, maybe then she`ll naturally calm down....

I would sugest not to suppres her temper....every proffesion has its difficulties and many people often feel tired ...so is the case with mamas


best wishes to happy Mama

Zlatan
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: warda on January 07, 2005, 12:32:01 AM
Selam

Quote
I actually dont see that you even have a problem...you are a very lucky women -blessed by The God with a heathy, lively and according to the description given - very sweet child...

To feel less tired just try thinking of thousands of those whose children are deadly sick or invalids or deaf or blind etc...


Ohh, I didn't say that I'm depressed and unhappy and close to comitting suicide because of my daughter. It just came to my head while reading about the "Super Nanny" and in her bedroom my little one was screaming...

I don't have to mention here always the worst cases when I write about my own situation. That's what I'm doing daily anyway - thanking God for everything I have including healthy kids.

Quote

Also, do not forget to try giving birth to an another children,


It's good that you reminded me. I just prayed to God for a another kid this morning - in the meantime I forgot about it. :lol:

Salam
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: idolfree1 on January 07, 2005, 02:00:25 AM
Peace be upon you Warda,

Evertything is a test to see if we can keep a peaceful mind. Nothing outside of us should be able to effect our state.

Regarding her jumping around at night, I guess we all were at that stage, maybe try to meditate with her at night. It involved DEEP LONG BREATHING which eliminates those inner drives which are keeping her "excited"!  Just observe someone as the fall asleep, thier breathing becomes very deep.

Also, watch the sugar!  :D
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Green Leaves on January 07, 2005, 08:21:20 AM
Greetings Warda,

Quote
she is jumping happily in her bed, singing, dancing,shaking her head with her long curly hair, singing ..... . finding thousands things she still needs...


Let her jump as much as she wants on the matress and take lots and lots of pictures when she does to show them when she gets old.  I will be 21 in three weeks and I still jump on my matress :)

Let her enjoy her childhood while she can because the older you get the more you realize how much life sucks and somehow jumping on the matress doesn't make you feel as much happy at 20 :(
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: warda on January 08, 2005, 01:53:40 AM
Salam Kyle and GL
Thanks for your nice posts...:D

Quote
I guess we all were at that stage, maybe try to meditate with her at night. It involved DEEP LONG BREATHING which eliminates those inner drives which are keeping her "excited"! Just


Thank you Kyle, I will try it tonight! I'll tell you I succeeded or not. :)

Quote
Let her jump as much as she wants on the matress and take lots and lots of pictures when she does to show them when she gets old. I will be 21 in three weeks and I still jump on my matress Smile

Let her enjoy her childhood while she can because the older you get the more you realize how much life sucks and somehow jumping on the matress doesn't make you feel as much happy at 20 Sad


See, that's how I see it also. However in REALITY of daily life the kid needs around ten/eleven hours of sleep to stay healthy. Since we have to get up in the morning early there is a limit at which she needs to sleep anyway. That's the point. Not to mention that Mama wants to read Posts at free-minds, read, study, watch TV,... in the evening before she goes to bed also.:D

Salams
warda
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zlatan on January 08, 2005, 01:56:03 AM
Peace

Quote from: "warda"

Ohh, I didn't say that I'm depressed and unhappy and close to comitting suicide because of my daughter. It just came to my head while reading about the "Super Nanny" and in her bedroom my little one was screaming...


sorry  :oops: , it seems that i have projected my own frustration on you... :) i also have a four year kid... maybe they could marry in future cause they, as it seems, have very similar tempers

Nevertheless, try making your dother as bussy as much you can thrughout the day(for example -long walks), so she will be more prone to fall asleep in the night...

One of the tricks that also sometimes work is that you turn all the lights in the house off and pretend that you gonna go to sleep as well... :lol:


best wishes


Zlatan
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Green Leaves on January 08, 2005, 11:24:52 AM
Greetings Warda,

You might find this article interesting: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/42/1739_50197.htm and this one:
http://my.webmd.com/content/chat_transcripts/1/100804.htm

I haven't been around little kids since like 10 years or something and they sound like so much fun (I mean, jumping on the mattress, how much fun is that?)...makes me wanna adopt a cute kid :D
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: warda on January 08, 2005, 06:14:25 PM
Salam Kyle, GL, and Zlatan
Quote from: "idolfree1"
maybe try to meditate with her at night. It involved DEEP LONG BREATHING which eliminates those inner drives which are keeping her "excited"!


It worked. At least yesterday :) I don't know whether she was too tired anyway, but she liked it, turned around after a little while and slept !!!!! This happens once in six months :)

Saalam Green Leaves,
thanks for the links! They're quite interesting.

Salam Zlatan

Quote
sorry Embarassed , it seems that i have projected my own frustration on you... Smile i also have a four year kid... maybe they could marry in future cause they, as it seems, have very similar tempers

No problem! So do you have a boy? I will ask my princess what she thinks about our arranged wedding at the age of four :lol:
Zlatan, if I may ask: isn't your name slavish?

Salam Aleikum
warda
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: SwedenMajidah on January 10, 2005, 09:45:52 PM
Salaam warda,

Yes we have also got that TV show at last I will say because we seems to always be the last one!

I think it's a good program so I will go on and watch it more times.

Take Care!
Sis Majidah
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Damon on January 11, 2005, 04:03:15 PM
Peace people,

Well I'm sorry to have to say that I had to spank my sons bottom earlier today because he absolutely refuses to be potty trained. When I say he refuses, that's what I mean.....he absolutely refuses to be potty trained.

My wife and I have been trying to potty train him for the past three-four weeks now to no avail whatsoever. We will sit him on his potty at certain times and try to get him to handle his business. Each and Every time, he did not go to the potty, but as soon as we take him off of it and put a pull up on him, he will sneak off somewhere by himself and unload in his pull-up. Do you guys have any idea how fustrating this is??

Well, as always, I have been at it all day around the clock with him. I put him on the potty three times today and all three times he did not go. After the third time, I put a some underwear on him and about 5-10 minutes later, he once again went somewhere by himself and unloaded. Because I am pretty much at my wits end I had to go to his bottom for doing this and I had to for two reasons.........

One, he made a very bad mess with this deed. Remember, this round I did not put a pull up on him (because it wasn't bed time yet) I put a pair of underwear on him. Well making a mess in a pair of underwear is a whole different breed of chaos than making one in a pull up.

Two....anothe reason that I had to tap his little behind is because something tells me that he knows what he is doing. He always sneaks off somewhere alone to do this. There have been times where we caught him just in time and we'll hurry and snatch him up and put him on the potty. Most times though, he'll just hold it until we take him off of it. The fact that he always goes somewhere alone away from me and his mother suggests to me that he has a master plan that he's working on when he does this.

Now his older brother, my 7 year old, is really, really asking for it. My wife and I use spankings very sparingly...only to draw a line somewhere. But my seven year old son has really been pushing his luck and trying my patience lately.

Kyle made the statement that his cultural upbringing has made him used to butt whoopins. I'm also an African American and my mother used to beat me and yet I am very close to her because I understand the role whoopins have in an upbringing.

I do believe that there is a difference between spankings and child abuse. And I also believe that the key is to make sure we as parents balance everything out. Yes, discipline your children, but make sure you show them just as much love and compassion as you do disciplinary action. Try not to overdue one or the other. Too much of one (spanking) can result in an emotionally dysfunctional member of society and too much of the other (no spanking, but spoiling the child) can result in someone growing up not understanding that the world does not revolve around him/her and that there are consequences and repercussions for things that we shouldn't do but do anyway because we think we are unpunishable.

As I write this e-mail, I am trying my utmost to hold on to my patience concerning my seven year old son, but between his behaviour in school and the disrespect he's starting to display at home, I may have to remind him that there are certain things that I simply will not tolerate.

Salaam,
Damon.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: TheNabi on January 11, 2005, 04:14:56 PM
Salaam Damon,

There are ways to get your child to use the potty correctly. Keep in mind that the control of elimination [peeing and taking a dump] for children is a way for them to express independence. You should try putting your child on the toilet when you see that he/she needs to do so. Learning through observation is a good thing too. The questions will come and you just need to knock them down. Remember, don't make it a bad experience for the child. Encourage and reinforce.

Joe
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Damon on January 11, 2005, 04:34:39 PM
Peace Joe,

Quote
Salaam Damon,

There are ways to get your child to use the potty correctly. Keep in mind that the control of elimination [peeing and taking a dump] for children is a way for them to express independence. You should try putting your child on the toilet when you see that he/she needs to do so. Learning through observation is a good thing too. The questions will come and you just need to knock them down. Remember, don't make it a bad experience for the child. Encourage and reinforce.

Joe


Thanx for the advise Joe, I'll give it a try, GOD Willing.

By the way, I guess I should tell you guys that my wife and I have just found out that we have a third one on the way (GOD Willing)  :D

We already have two boys (ages 3 and 7), maybe GOD will give us a girl this time.  8)

Peace all,
Damon.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: TheNabi on January 11, 2005, 05:03:28 PM
Salaam Damon,

Quote from: "Damon"
By the way, I guess I should tell you guys that my wife and I have just found out that we have a third one on the way (GOD Willing)   :D  


Cool and good job. You're making the kids and I'm still in alot of ways a kid.  :lol:

Joe
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: SwedenMajidah on January 11, 2005, 09:38:37 PM
Peace,

My son is now about 3 and a half year old and he is very good to pee on the toilet but when he was only 3 years old he also refuses to sit on his potty even if he did it at kindergarden.

I asked him if he wanted to try the big toilet were mummy used to pee and then he got exited and give it a try and he liked it and today he always use the toilet.

I think you have to encourage him to use the toilet and describe in a fun way that it is actually only babies who use diapers.

Why can't you find a nice children book with pictures of kids doing things in the bathroom like peeing on the potty or the toilet and brush their teeth and so on then maybe he will be willing to learn.

Forcing a kid is never good and the reult will come much later than if you make it on a fun way.

Hope it helps!

Peace
Sis Majidah
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: zenje on January 12, 2005, 02:37:27 AM
Salaam Damon n all,

Glad I took the time to check this thread out today... I couldn't stop myself from smiling when I was reading Damon's ordeal with Potty training. Damon... I take it your 3 year old son is the problem child? Here's my advice... let him go on that issue. I know exactly where you're at, because I had it worse than you did! My son only caved in at 4 years old! What's worse with my son was, that he didn't want to take a dump at all, even in his pull up when we fought with him vigorously! I kept fighting with him coz my wife kept telling me how worried she was about the whole ordeal. I wasn't too worried about it, but she got me worked up. So anyway, finally this doctor gave us this prescription kinda laxative to give him with his milk. For some reason, right after, he asked us all by himself to go to the toilet! :D  

Moral of the story, let your son take his time. He knows it's not a good thing to poopoo in the pull up, but as Joe said... it's the only independence he's got right now. That's his thing and you cannot take it away from him, until he decides to give it up. The fighting will only make it worse. Your expectations have nothing to do with it. :lol:

Peace be with you brother and your family. And congratulations on your number 3. I have 2 boys also, but those will have to do for now. :wink:
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: warda on January 12, 2005, 04:29:50 AM
Salam Damon

Quote
By the way, I guess I should tell you guys that my wife and I have just found out that we have a third one on the way (GOD Willing) Very Happy

CONGRATULATION !! :D  :D

Regarding your three year old son: don't beat him or spank his bottom, cause it really will make it worse and maybe he understands at all why you are beating him. I used to have the same problem with my little one. She used to pee wherever she stood, of course I was angry, but at the same I felt sorry for her, couse she doesn't know and understand. If I would have slapt her, it doesn't make it better but worse. My advice: talk to him very seriously, loud but without screaming. Or tell him if he does the same, he will not get... (something he loves) or other way round, as soon as he succeeded and does well give him something he loves and tell him how much you love him, well, but I'm sure you do so.

GOOD LUCK!
Salam
warda
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: TAJ on January 12, 2005, 07:04:29 AM
Salaam All,


I have seen, in an ad in a magazine, a potty that plays music every time the child pees in it!  :)  

Do you have that kind of potty in the shops at your place? If you can find them, I guess they should help a lot!



Taj
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: zenje on January 12, 2005, 07:24:41 AM
We got one of those Taj, it didn't help any!

Peace
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: tux on January 12, 2005, 08:58:26 AM
Peace be upon you all!

We have our first  one on the way (30 days), God Willing :P
I will never hit my child.

Quote from: "SwedenMajidah"

Salaam,

I have seen some programs on TV "Super Nanny" and that program give me some idea how to treat a wild child without violence.


I saw that program today  :)
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: SwedenMajidah on January 12, 2005, 08:29:02 PM
Salaam Tux,

Hey who are you?

Peace
Sis Majidah
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Elena on January 13, 2005, 12:55:47 AM
Peace all,have you read this? I really enjoyed reading it:
When Amanda Craig lost her voice after an operation for thyroid cancer, she found she really started to hear what her children had to say
Listen with mother
http://www.guardian.co.uk/parents/story/0,3605,1234343,00.html
Wednesday June 9, 2004
The Guardian

Any modern parent knows that, if you are to avoid smacking, argument is the only way to maintain discipline. Quiet words and sweet reason are supposed to do the trick when confronted with a tantruming toddler or angry adolescent. But of course, it doesn't always work out like that. You can find yourself screeching like one of Roald Dahl's witches, or just abjectly begging for mercy. Yet your voice is there as your prime means of keeping your children obedient, entertained, consoled and safe. Whether you use it like a whip-lash, or roar as gently as any sucking dove, it is the tool of first choice.
But what do you do if you suddenly have no voice at all?

Earlier this year, I discovered I had thyroid cancer. I had suspected I was ill for some time because I felt tired all the time, and have (despite many attempts to reverse this) gone up four dress sizes, but my GP kept telling me I was just a stressed-out working mother. Eventually, I paid for a private blood test, which revealed that I needed a scan, which revealed that I needed a biopsy, which revealed a carcinoma right over my voice-box ... and then, last month, I had to have my thyroid taken out.

The cancer was "huge", according to the surgeon, but hadn't spread. (Thyroid cancer, though excruciating to have out, is the one cancer for which a "magic bullet" exists, in the form of radioactive iodine: catch it in time, and you have a normal life-span.) That was the good part. The bad part is that, despite being operated on by the best surgeon in Britain for this problem, I have lost my voice indefinitely.

Not only do I now look like Frankenstein's monster, with stitches right across my neck, I am also the Little Mermaid - my least favourite character. Being struck dumb is a curse second only to blindness in most fairy tales; although mine is apparently temporary, and far less dreadful than being blind or deaf, I have begun to see why. The equation of a voice with power is fundamental to most human interaction, and having none affects every possible aspect of my life. Everything, from judging this year's Whitbread prize, to making sure my kids do their homework, has just become very difficult. Do you try to convey your thoughts by writing them on huge placards that other members of a panel can read, as in Edwardian theatre? Do you enact a violent pantomime, beaming like a lunatic or miming death by strangulation when Deborah Moggach, Alan Hollinghurst or David Mitchell are mentioned? At least, in my professional life as a novelist, I can communicate via email. Domestically, however, it is a nightmare.

I always wondered, when watching The Piano, how Holly Hunter's character brought up her child when unable to speak. My daughter and son are lively, imaginative, naughty and noisy, and at times it has felt as if all that stands between domestic order and chaos is the strength of my vocal cords. For me, the experience of love in my life has always been one of conversation, and my children reflect that, at full volume. Both have been used to a continual exchange of chat, questions, jokes, gossip, songs and information from the moment they were able to put two words together. Suddenly, that has been cut off. My voice lies in my throat like a ball at the bottom of a deep well, and nothing but time can get it up again.


 I speak, effortfully, in a faint, breathless whisper that even someone sitting next to me finds hard to understand. It's bad enough for my husband, but to my children it seems as if I have become a ghost. Not only can I not ask them basic stuff like what their day at school was like, I can't read them stories at bedtime or comfort them with anything more than cuddles. Some friends have suggested I use a policeman's whistle, and it's true, I can whistle - or clap - as if to dogs. Otherwise, I have to whisper.

And yet - and yet - something else has happened, too. Not being able to speak forces you to listen. If words can seem like a ball kept bouncing between two players, or a shower of javelins between two armies, they can also mask feelings, and create misunderstandings. What to me is a supple, subtle knife, capable of splitting hairs, is to them a blunt instrument for conveying feeling. Children, like dogs, are acutely sensitive to the way words are said, rather than the language chosen. For them, the emotion is all in all, not what it is wrapped up in. They hate being shouted at as much as they hate being hit - if not more. Even if what you are saying is perfectly sensible and reasonable, they will only hear the volume. Though fewer and fewer parents strike their children, I suspect that more and more of us shout at them instead. How else to express impatience, frustration or even anger? You can believe yourself to be compassionate and non-violent, but raising your voice to a child can be just as terrifying as raising your hand. Each generation of my father's family has made efforts to shed an aspect of anger, from my grandfather, brought up in a notoriously cruel Edinburgh orphanage, to my father, who refused to beat his daughters with a leather belt as he had been beaten, to myself, possessor of the kind of temper traditionally associated with red hair and a voice that, when roused, has not needed a microphone when addressing a public meeting. I have tried not to use this weapon when exasperated, and all too often have failed. I never, however, expected to be forced into becoming a child whisperer.

If you just listen to a child, instead of talking to (and occasionally, it must be admitted, at) them, making the odd grunt or sigh to show you are there, no end of stuff comes out. Since losing my voice, I have learned more about what my son thinks and feels than I ever knew before. From this, I have learned that children want a silent, sympathetic audience far more than they want advice, stories or even prompting. Being able only to whisper gives them a sense of intimacy which they rather enjoy. My inability to call, bellow, shriek or yell at them means they have to come close and listen when I ask them to do something, which makes them concentrate harder on what I'm actually saying. To my great surprise my noisy, exuberant pair have become much quieter, more considerate and more obedient. I don't think it's just that I have been ill. We have been forced to listen to each other.

Children are assailed by noise, from over-loud music, films and personal stereos to the demands and instructions of adults in their lives. No wonder their concentration, in this generation, tends to be poor. They need to learn how to speak up, but they also need to be heard, much more than I ever realised, and they need peace and quiet in which to learn to hear their own thoughts. When my voice comes back, and the normal cacophony of family life returns, I hope the gift of the gab does not swamp the sounds of silence. Keeping mum as a mum isn't the end of the world. In fact, it feels like a new beginning.

? Amanda Craig's novel, Love in Idleness, has just been published in Abacus paperback, price ?6.99.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: zenje on January 13, 2005, 02:47:39 AM
Quote from: "tux"
I will never hit my child.

Yes, I remember telling myself that before I got married... and did quiet well too, the first 2 years! :P I'm with Damon though, there's a fine line between abuse and discipline, and balance is key. I was beaten as a child in school, by my parents and at the madrassa. I couldve done without it, but I still respect and love my parents. As for the teachers... well, maybe I would've liked school a little more... but no regrets or blames for my life's 'problems'. I come from a 3rd world country, and when I see people here talking of spanking as abuse... they have no idea what goes on in the rest of the world. I'm not advocating beating, most of the times it doesn't serve much purpose, but at the same time, depending on the child, some spanking may be necessary. In terms of political correctness, I know this gets frowned upon... but, hey, welcome to the real world. :twisted:
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Damon on January 13, 2005, 06:36:34 AM
Salaam all,

Well put Zenje.  :D  And quite an eye opener at that.

BUUUUT........he just did it again about five minutes ago. My three year old son just ruined another pair of underwear by, once again, sneaking off somewhere and proceeded to unload in his underwear even though he didn't go on the potty when we put him on it.

I'm sorry guys, I know Joe said that it's independence on his part, but I can't help but to feel as though it's more like stubborness instead. Needless to say, I gave him a whack on his boody. The thing is it wasn't a harsh wack and that's probably one of the reasons why he isn't taking this, as well as other things, seriously at all.

My wife and I use spankings  sparingly and we're content to just talk to them and yell at them when we feel it neccessary. Man, this is beyond frustrating. :x

By the way, thanx guys for giving me the congrats on the little bun my wife and I have in the oven.  :D

Salaam,
Damon.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: zenje on January 13, 2005, 07:18:35 AM
Salaam Damon,
Quote
BUUUUT........he just did it again about five minutes ago.
:lol:

Are you gonna check if it's a boy/girl in advance (ultrasound)?... or do you wanna be surprised? :D
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: tux on January 13, 2005, 08:30:30 AM
Peace be upon you zenje, all

My father hit me too as a child, not hard though.
I have forgotten all about that, but what I can?t forget is one time when my father hit my little brother and he went to school crying. It was 13 years ago and even today when I think about it I feel sad and angry. I?m maybe a little bit weak but that?s how I feel.

Let me put it this way; I hope I never hit my child.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Damon on January 13, 2005, 10:26:11 AM
Peace Zenje,

Quote
Are you gonna check if it's a boy/girl in advance (ultrasound)?... or do you wanna be surprised?


I find that it is quite effcient to find out in advance for preparation purposes (name of child, color baby clothes to buy, etc.)

We already have two boys, so my wife is hoping that we have a girl this time. I'm hoping for the same thing I had hoped for with our first two....a healthy baby GOD Willing.

Salaam,
Damon.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: zenje on January 14, 2005, 03:28:04 AM
Peace tux and Damon,

Congratulations to both of you on your upcoming attractions. :D

Keep these prayers in mind;

3:38.   It was then that Zachariah called on his Lord, he said: ?My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are hearer of the prayers.?

46:15.   And We enjoined the human being to honour his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his weaning lasts thirty months. Until he has attained his maturity, and reaches forty years, he says: ?My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have surrendered.?  


Peace.
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: tux on January 14, 2005, 04:09:04 AM
Peace

Thanks zenje :D
Title: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zlatan on January 22, 2005, 12:39:50 AM
I wish you peace, well being and salvation warda, all

sorry for the late response i was ill 2 weeks, down to bed...

Quote from: "warda"
So do you have a boy? I will ask my princess what she thinks about our arranged wedding at the age of four :lol:
Zlatan, if I may ask: isn't your name slavish?


 :D yes i do have a boy, actually 2 of them, a four and a 6 year one...

And yes my name is slavish and it means Golden

best wishes, Zlatan
Title: I very much agree with what you said!!!
Post by: kevin6337 on March 29, 2011, 07:21:19 AM
I very much agree with what you said!!!
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: wrkmmn on February 29, 2016, 11:28:08 AM
Peace:

Many here speak what they speak because they have not had children. And maybe, they have not even observed children's behavior.

We can not generalize, and say that all children are the same, or say that the way to discipline them is either words or violence. Lets not forget that children are humans, and as humans they are complex beings, and they have free will. Also, they are not a gift but a test to us according to quran.
8:78 And know that your possessions and your children are a test, and that with Allah is immense reward.

First of all, people needs to understand that children are ignorant beings that are just beginning to learn, and they do not know what is best for them. in this there is a lesson for believers. They will behave following their desires, for it is the only thing they know. As they learn from their environment, they will begin to mold their behavior, and know were the limits are.
There are some children that will respect the limits just by being told what is bad and what is good.
There are others that will require the warning of a painful punishment(a good spanking in the buttock(i personally dislike slapping in the face) in order for them to obey.
There are others that will obey but until they see the painful punishment coming. Some parents are satisfied with them as long as they obey. But, I think they should receive the punishment so that next time they will obey at the first warning.
And, there are others that even if you beat them to death they will be stubborn/arrogant (thinking they know better than the one sustaining them) and will not obey nor behave withing the limits. In this case, all you can do is pray God for a solution, and be patient.

Children need discipline, and sometimes violence has to be implemented to make them stay within the limits, and to protect them from their own violence.

may God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.


Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Man of Faith on February 29, 2016, 01:23:37 PM
Psychology is a better tool than domestic violence. Violence in child rearing is considered an obselete method and research clearly shows that there are better methods.

Child beating is also illegal by law in most developed countries leading to in worst case a prison sentence.

I think you might reconsider your view of life. But considered you seem to think wife beating is okay I understand you live in the past and have primitive ideas.

/Amenuel
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: عوني on March 02, 2016, 12:13:51 PM
It is really sad that some people here believe in abusing children.. Whether it is light violence or hard it is still extremely wrong and has no place in a civilized society. It is only primitive people who abuse their children or spouse. Throw those primitive people into jail already.

Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: wrkmmn on March 03, 2016, 11:36:54 AM
Peace:

for your words I understand that you are still little.

'wny:
Quote
It is really sad that some people here believe in abusing children
There is a clear line between discipline and abuse, but I do not think you understand either of this words.

Manoffaith:
Quote
Child beating is also illegal by law in most developed countries leading to in worst case a prison sentence.
yes, here in the Us you could go to prison for child beating. they may not allow hard old discipline ways, but they fill your hyperactive kids with drugs, lithium, etc. to keep them calm and stupid, would you say that is better. Or, until the 1970s lobotomy was legal, they took your kid and inserted a ice pick through the eyes and destroyed their brain, and it was done by your doctor gods in which you trust so blindly. Also, go and see how their children are behaving, it is normal and funny to hear a child being told to do something by his/her mother to answer " shut up bitch".

Quote
I understand you live in the past and have primitive ideas
Kids in your developed countries that you worship so much are behaving in ways that in the Torah the law of god ordains death penalty. If God has primitive Ideas, maybe you should go teach Him what is better for us.

may God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
 
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: عوني on March 03, 2016, 12:04:13 PM
Well I'm not sure if you count 22 years old as 'little'. FYI, violence is violence regardless of what its intentions are. To use violence in order to teach 'discipline' is abuse too. You obviously don't have any children, at least I don't hope so. And remember that you are passing down violence to your children who will start passing violence towards their children and it will spread, etc. This will also ruin their childhood.


Quote
yes, here in the Us you could go to prison for child beating. they may not allow hard old discipline ways, but they fill your hyperactive kids with drugs, lithium, etc. to keep them calm and stupid, would you say that is better. Or, until the 1970s lobotomy was legal, they took your kid and inserted a ice pick through the eyes and destroyed their brain, and it was done by your doctor gods in which you trust so blindly. Also, go and see how their children are behaving, it is normal and funny to hear a child being told to do something by his/her mother to answer " shut up bitch".

I'm pretty sure that he was excluding the US. He was refering to the Scandinavian countries and the other European countries (perhaps except the Eastern European nations who tend to be conservative). Any type of violence is and should be illegal, whether it is light or hard violence.

Quote
Kids in your developed countries that you worship so much are behaving in ways that in the Torah the law of god ordains death penalty. If God has primitive Ideas, maybe you should go teach Him what is better for us.

Wow.. But thanks for making the Torah look more bad than it already is though.

Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 03, 2016, 12:12:30 PM
Each child is each child. To have the same rule for all children is to ignore that they are persons. And each adult is alo each adult.

Children feel mistreated when people do not even get angry with them when they, the children behave in such a way as it would be logical for anybody to be angry. And it is false that they are encouraged to be angry themselves because of that. Some children do try and defy their parents and opush them to the limit, because they want to test them. If I can puh my mother or my father to the limit and she or he accepts it and does not do anything to me, how on earth are they going to protect me from harm if push come to shove. If they are that meek with me I just cannot trust this parent to protect me.

If they get reassured in that way not only they wont be angry with their parents but will love them more and will trust them more and will rely on them more. A parent who is too meek when she or he should be firm is of no use to a child.

I agree that beating on the face is inadmissible. not because of the pain or what but because it is humilliating. No person at no age. But I have never seen any child to bear scars because at some time the mother gave him or her a spanking. It is definitely bettr than to be cold or indifferet to them.

I was in a boarding school when I was a child younger than ten and none of the ladies teachers ever put her hand on anybody. Just one of them, when she really got fed up and ost her temper. She did it on the spur of the moment but none of the children disliked her. May be she was a little feared but not disliked. She was also the one who used to give us bear hugs and we really felt that she cared for us, and she did care. But she was human and I never resented her nor remember that any other children resented her. I guess now she would be thrown out of the school right away. 

Coldness is far more damaging than spanking. Up to a certain age, spanking does not do any damage to a child. After that age, of course it is out of place. What damages them at any age and causes them pain that lasts forever is injustice even if there is no spanking or any physical violence. Injustice is far more damaging and a tragedy for children. It would be better if parents got lectures on that rather than on spanking when the kids get impossible.

Salaam
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Comrox on March 03, 2016, 03:16:15 PM
Peace all,

Personally I'm very much against using any violence against children. Growing up I was very sensitive. I was the good kid because I always wanted to please my parents and make them happy with me. Even getting yelled at was something I didn't handle well, so I just made sure it never happened. I don't believe violence is at all necessary to raise a child well.

Now my partner was raised with physical punishments and does think that light violence can be good for kids. We haven't had many talks about it, but it worries me a bit. But anyways. That's a different topic.

Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Man of Faith on March 04, 2016, 01:28:16 AM
You can be firm with a child without inflicting physical pain. And a child that has not been reared properly from the beginning is harder to handle so if one later feel they have to use physical methods it means they did wrong to begin with. Often many children also grow a distant relationship to their parent when the child is exposed to abuse.

Usually the best method is to make ways to have the child face consequences for their deeds. Sanctions is one way, but parental guidance is also required in explaining the error to the child and explicitly telling why the error is wrong. If the child is taught empathy early on it will help making the child more tranquil, empathy is a great key. On top of that, it is important as a parent to act as a role model since the child will simply imitate your behavior and if you have a lousy appearance you cannot expect your own child to behave any better. You must be well aware of what kind of things in your surroundings that you give approval of, even if it is in fiction.

Being kind to your child and having a moderate amount of "treats" (not candy) helps both showing correct behavior and also leaves room for sanctions when needed as you have something to deprive them of as a consequence of their actions. The children will not do bad things without influence from peers, their own desire and their instinct, so making them aware of such affections early on in life may help too.

Wellness to you
Amenuel
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zulf on March 04, 2016, 10:23:07 AM
Each child is each child. To have the same rule for all children is to ignore that they are persons. And each adult is alo each adult.

Children feel mistreated when people do not even get angry with them when they, the children behave in such a way as it would be logical for anybody to be angry. And it is false that they are encouraged to be angry themselves because of that. Some children do try and defy their parents and opush them to the limit, because they want to test them. If I can puh my mother or my father to the limit and she or he accepts it and does not do anything to me, how on earth are they going to protect me from harm if push come to shove. If they are that meek with me I just cannot trust this parent to protect me.

If they get reassured in that way not only they wont be angry with their parents but will love them more and will trust them more and will rely on them more. A parent who is too meek when she or he should be firm is of no use to a child.

I agree that beating on the face is inadmissible. not because of the pain or what but because it is humilliating. No person at no age. But I have never seen any child to bear scars because at some time the mother gave him or her a spanking. It is definitely bettr than to be cold or indifferet to them.

I was in a boarding school when I was a child younger than ten and none of the ladies teachers ever put her hand on anybody. Just one of them, when she really got fed up and ost her temper. She did it on the spur of the moment but none of the children disliked her. May be she was a little feared but not disliked. She was also the one who used to give us bear hugs and we really felt that she cared for us, and she did care. But she was human and I never resented her nor remember that any other children resented her. I guess now she would be thrown out of the school right away. 

Coldness is far more damaging than spanking. Up to a certain age, spanking does not do any damage to a child. After that age, of course it is out of place. What damages them at any age and causes them pain that lasts forever is injustice even if there is no spanking or any physical violence. Injustice is far more damaging and a tragedy for children. It would be better if parents got lectures on that rather than on spanking when the kids get impossible.

Salaam

What I have seen is that the missing ingredient is mostly love. It seems that people mix spanking with beating. Those who beat their children, in the way that is not good, does so nopt out of love but out of mental misery. It seems that too often beating goes hand in hand with lack of love. So the problem is not spanking, but lack of love and especially when lack of love is accompanied by oppressive beating.

The amount of spanking will not determine the effect on the child as much as the amount of love will. Lack of love is horrible. Lack of love plus demeaning beating is even worse. Some spanking (with sanity) but with lots of love, won't have that bad effect on the children. Beating (abuse) is not done with sanity. Spanking and beating are different things.

as far as I see it right now at least
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 04, 2016, 12:21:12 PM
That is what I mean: there is no "lack of violence" that can replace love, affection, fondness. If we love the children and show it and do not make them starve for nearness, God willing, they will grow to be sane people.

And as Zulf says, there is a big, very very big difference between beating and spanking. I can't conceive of really beating a creature neither big nor small, but beating a woman or a child is such an ugly thing as to make instantaneously hell on earth with such a thing.

People are not perfect, parents are not God' that never make mistakes, who are immune to tiredness or have no limits to their capacity or their patience. Parents commit errors, have shortcomings.

To read some of the things that people write about what parents should do or not do seem to spring from a belief that parents are omnipotent people who are above all failings and limits of human nature just by virtue of their being parents.

Parents are human and have limits ad have shortcomings and have failings. Children know it and accept it if they know they are loved. A child can forgive mistakes even if they get a punshiment which was not fair if the parent acknowledges it and says so. At that point the child is happy because she or he can do something for the parent: forgive him or her if the parent lost temper or was unfair to the child. That far from bringing children and parents apart in fact brings them closer.

Children do not want perfect parents but parents who love them and show it. That is the whole thing. 

Nice that you reminded us of it, Zulf.

Salaam
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 04, 2016, 12:31:24 PM
but beating a woman or a child is such an ugly thing as to make instantaneously hell on earth with such a thing.

Salaam
Hi,

Beating a healthy strong man is not ugly?  :hmm
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Jafar on March 04, 2016, 12:57:10 PM
1. Beating of kids (or adult) has been outlawed in some countries  today.
Thus parent who think that they can still do as such must check with the governing law on where he or she lives in.

Yes.. especially you Abraham... sacrificing your own son is not considered as a heroic act now.. kapish?

2. Threatening somebody (including children) with violence has been considered as an act of harassment, a penal offense in some countries today.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 04, 2016, 02:15:03 PM
Hi,

Beating a healthy strong man is not ugly?  :hmm

Quote
I can't conceive of really beating a creature neither big nor small,

I think there is  difference between agression to somebody who is able to defend himself and somebody who may attempt to defend him or herself, but is not a match for the agressor.

And I do not mind being called sexist for it, but I do consider that being both things ugly, it is much uglier that a man should beat a woman, and I think I am not the only one to think so, but rather many people do, not that I need company for that, but what I mea is that it is not a fashion or posturing but omething which is in the fitra.

Salaam

Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 04, 2016, 03:04:22 PM
Quote
I can't conceive of really beating a creature neither big nor small,

Hi,

sorry missed this quote.

I think there is  difference between agression to somebody who is able to defend himself and somebody who may attempt to defend him or herself, but is not a match for the agressor.

And I do not mind being called sexist for it, but I do consider that being both things ugly, it is much uglier that a man should beat a woman, and I think I am not the only one to think so, but rather many people do, not that I need company for that, but what I mea is that it is not a fashion or posturing but omething which is in the fitra.

Salaam

I think you say this because men are in general stronger then women.
I think it's better to say that it's uglier when a stronger person beats a weaker person.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: wrkmmn on March 05, 2016, 12:00:04 PM
Peace:

I could give many examples of when to reward your children materially/spiritually while avoiding making them think that they are your masters, because that is a fine line that they often cross, and you notice it by the tone of their voice when they talk to you.
when can you turn a blind eye to your misbehaving children, and how many times.
when to warn and punish psychologically. 
when to warn of physical punishment, and how many warnings to give depending on how unacceptable is the action.
when to punish and the degree of the punishment, depending on the bad your children made.
However, it is not on me to give you understanding. I will have to fill many pages from what I have gathered throughout my life.  Whatever you do is part of your test. Our children is the only case where we have the opportunity to be witness, judge, and executioner, and we will be judge for it.

remember that nobody can be punished if he/she acted in ignorance. Therefore, children must have a certain age/level of understanding to begin to receive punishments. If you are not of those who fear God, and are not patient, you will be most likely to go beyond the limits. The only advice I can give you is that if you are angry do not punish your children, but intil you are calm again.

Forget the stupid idea that you should treat your children as equals, for they are not, they are your children and you are their parents, and there is a line that they shall never cross. You can be their friend, their partner, etc, but you should never allow them to feel that they are above you, and they shall honor you no matter how decrepit you have become. Discipline is the best way to show that you care/love to your children, and nobody hates it except the ungrateful ones.

Do not feel bad to tell your children that you will not tolerate disobedience, and that if they grow up to be rebellious, they will not be worthy of being called your sons/daughters. Read the Holy books, pray God for wisdom.

11:45And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!"
11:46He said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant."


proverbs 29
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
 17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.
18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.


As for those that only speak because they have mouth:
20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

may God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zulf on March 05, 2016, 12:24:23 PM
I think you say this because men are in general stronger then women.
Yes probably.

Quote
I think it's better to say that it's uglier when a stronger person beats a weaker person.
It's not necessarily better. It is perhaps true, in a theoretical and philosophical way, but when looking at reality, everyday life across the world, we see that it is in fact women, and children, who are being beaten up. The men who are being beaten and oppressed by women are a small minority, and an "anomaly" if you wish. The oppressive women and the subjugated men will probably remain lika that even when publiv opinion and culture changes. An anomaly is an exception. The real issue is the physical abuse that happens in the majority of cases. 

Ok, since men will always be larger and stronger, physically, than women, the beating will never go away completely. The beating will always be there because it is the consequence of two factors that will remain constant forever: 1) difference in phsical strength, and 2) the corruptness/weakness of the human mind. Just like men beat up women, dominant groups tend to oppress minority groups. The big bully in school will harass the weaker kids. A more powerful nation will boss around with weaker nations. This is what happens on an animal level, and it is quite natural. But human beings are not supposed to be animals. So, we should try to change general public opinion, while realizing that the extreme exceptions will always be there, and perhaps law enforcement will have to teach them a lesson.

So, I think it is better to stress that it is women who are victims of physical abuse, simply because this is reality. It serves no purpose to take it to a too philosohpical and mathematically correct level. Big vs small is too general and doesn't adress the ground level reality, even though it may be true.

Actually, violence against women and children (domestic violence) is a subset of general violence, but should not be hidden and forgotten inside general violence. The reason is that there are different mechanics at play. Like we don't call all illness by the same name and we don't treat all illness with the same medicine, yet all illness is illness.

Peace
 O0
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 05, 2016, 01:44:30 PM
Yes probably.
It's not necessarily better. It is perhaps true, in a theoretical and philosophical way, but when looking at reality, everyday life across the world, we see that it is in fact women, and children, who are being beaten up. The men who are being beaten and oppressed by women are a small minority, and an "anomaly" if you wish. The oppressive women and the subjugated men will probably remain lika that even when publiv opinion and culture changes. An anomaly is an exception. The real issue is the physical abuse that happens in the majority of cases. 

Ok, since men will always be larger and stronger, physically, than women, the beating will never go away completely. The beating will always be there because it is the consequence of two factors that will remain constant forever: 1) difference in phsical strength, and 2) the corruptness/weakness of the human mind. Just like men beat up women, dominant groups tend to oppress minority groups. The big bully in school will harass the weaker kids. A more powerful nation will boss around with weaker nations. This is what happens on an animal level, and it is quite natural. But human beings are not supposed to be animals. So, we should try to change general public opinion, while realizing that the extreme exceptions will always be there, and perhaps law enforcement will have to teach them a lesson.

So, I think it is better to stress that it is women who are victims of physical abuse, simply because this is reality. It serves no purpose to take it to a too philosohpical and mathematically correct level. Big vs small is too general and doesn't adress the ground level reality, even though it may be true.

Actually, violence against women and children (domestic violence) is a subset of general violence, but should not be hidden and forgotten inside general violence. The reason is that there are different mechanics at play. Like we don't call all illness by the same name and we don't treat all illness with the same medicine, yet all illness is illness.

Peace
 O0

Hi,

RED: But I like to be mathematically correct  >:(
It feels to me as injustice to others who are also victim of abuse to ignore them or give them less attention, only because they are men.

BLUE: I think we only use the word abuse/beating when it's an abuse/beating for that person.
My slap would be an abuse for a child, but it would be a tickle for mike tyson, but mike tyson also has his limits and can also get a slap which can be defined as abuse and then he deserves  imho as much attention as the child.
So yes we should give the most attention to children because they are weakest (physically and mentally), but mike tyson has priority over a child who just got a slap from me if he is about to get dismembered.
What I try to say is that abuse is a relative concept because it differs for every person no matter age, gender, psychological condition, etc.
So when the line of abuse is reached for a person we have to give it equal priority, so for children this line can already trespassed very early because they are not only the weakest physical but also mentally as it can destroy their whole future lives.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zulf on March 06, 2016, 09:18:40 AM
Hi,

RED: But I like to be mathematically correct  >:(
It feels to me as injustice to others who are also victim of abuse to ignore them or give them less attention, only because they are men.

Who says they would be ignored? Abusive violence is always a crime.
Men are not ignored just because there is an attempt to highlight and reduce domestic violence against women. The only reason why women are mentioned here is that they are the victims in the vast majority of cases. We are talking about Domestic violence here. Not focussing on them would be unfair and also a waste of time. Outside the home, mostly men are involved in violence. I think that gets quite it's fair attention.

Like I said, it there is no need for people to get worried just because the plight of women is talked about in open words. Physical violence is still a crime no matter who committs it and no matter who the victim is. The problem of domestic violence though is a structural one,  a societal one...  and it should be addressed as such.

Quote

BLUE: I think we only use the word abuse/beating when it's an abuse/beating for that person.
My slap would be an abuse for a child, but it would be a tickle for mike tyson, but mike tyson also has his limits and can also get a slap which can be defined as abuse and then he deserves  imho as much attention as the child.
So yes we should give the most attention to children because they are weakest (physically and mentally), but mike tyson has priority over a child who just got a slap from me if he is about to get dismembered.
What I try to say is that abuse is a relative concept because it differs for every person no matter age, gender, psychological condition, etc.
So when the line of abuse is reached for a person we have to give it equal priority, so for children this line can already trespassed very early because they are not only the weakest physical but also mentally as it can destroy their whole future lives.

 :peace:

Yes. Mike Tyson will get help if he gets beaten down outside sports. So will children,  and women.  Who is being beaten up mostly?

Peace bro
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 06, 2016, 09:39:47 AM
I think Zulf is right. Anybody who gets agresed gets attention, but the fact that violence against women gets, deservedly attntion a such is becaue it is not an individual things but like we would say, a class act. Thy are beaten because they ar women, not because they are any individual or a particular individual. Like rape, women are raped becaue they are women. Men are also raped by other men, but I do not think as a class act, except in Lut's city, or in child porn events which of course should get , and I do not think anybody disagrees with that, I do not know if enough attention, but attention as such, not as an individual event.

Women, within certain mentality are considered as territory,  something on which to exert souveraignty. I definitel think there i something very characeristic in violence against women which makes it different from any chance or individual beating of which of course women can also be the victims, like being assaulted for money by drugaddicts or events like that. In that case they ar agressed by reason alien to their being women, and as a male could also be agessed.

Salaam 
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 06, 2016, 12:35:53 PM

Who says they would be ignored? Abusive violence is always a crime.
Men are not ignored just because there is an attempt to highlight and reduce domestic violence against women. The only reason why women are mentioned here is that they are the victims in the vast majority of cases. We are talking about Domestic violence here. Not focussing on them would be unfair and also a waste of time. Outside the home, mostly men are involved in violence. I think that gets quite it's fair attention.

Like I said, it there is no need for people to get worried just because the plight of women is talked about in open words. Physical violence is still a crime no matter who committs it and no matter who the victim is. The problem of domestic violence though is a structural one,  a societal one...  and it should be addressed as such.

Yes. Mike Tyson will get help if he gets beaten down outside sports. So will children,  and women.  Who is being beaten up mostly?

Peace bro

Hi Bro,

Green: You are a man of quantity ;)
The problem imho with this approach is that the minority gets forgotten and/or are not taken seriously.

The next scenario happens to often, not only in abuse/violence, but in general:
"911 can I help you?"
"Hi, I am a man an my wife is abusing me"
":rotfl: ok thank you for calling and have a nice day, bye"  beep beep beep.
(911=society in general)

My campaign for president of the world, would be like this:
"domestic violence will have the highest priority"
and not
"domestic violence, especially against women, will have the highest priority"
It just does not feel right to me, no matter what the statistics say.

If I am going to give a group extra privileges then it would be for sure not women just because they are women or because of statistics.
The ones who deserve in my view extra privileges are children,disabled people and elderly because they are not only physically weak but also mentally.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 06, 2016, 12:54:55 PM
I think Zulf is right. Anybody who gets agresed gets attention, but the fact that violence against women gets, deservedly attntion a such is becaue it is not an individual things but like we would say, a class act. Thy are beaten because they ar women, not because they are any individual or a particular individual. Like rape, women are raped becaue they are women. Men are also raped by other men, but I do not think as a class act, except in Lut's city, or in child porn events which of course should get , and I do not think anybody disagrees with that, I do not know if enough attention, but attention as such, not as an individual event.

Women, within certain mentality are considered as territory,  something on which to exert souveraignty. I definitel think there i something very characeristic in violence against women which makes it different from any chance or individual beating of which of course women can also be the victims, like being assaulted for money by drugaddicts or events like that. In that case they ar agressed by reason alien to their being women, and as a male could also be agessed.

Salaam

GREEN:  >:(
RED: Sorry but I can not agree with this. This is maybe true in some places or whatever, but that is imo not the reason.
I think the reason of abuse/violence is simply because the party who get's oppressed is weaker.
I am stronger then him or her so I can give that one a beating without fearing for myself.

I just did some googling.
According to some paper, in 2005 76% of the victims of domestic violence in The Netherlands was a female.
So this leaves us with 24 % of the victims as males.
So you think those male victims were only victim because they are male?
I do not think so, I think they were victim because they were weaker (and weaker does not always have to be in physical aspect).

I think the whole issue is not about genders but about oppression of the weaker party.
I think if you put in a island 100 women and 100 men, and all women are stronger then the strongest man there, then the women will oppress the men.
Not because they are men but because they are weaker then them.

But of course I did not do any study on it this, it is just what my mind is telling me.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: mmkhan on March 06, 2016, 01:28:54 PM
I think if you put in a island 100 women and 100 men, and all women are stronger then the strongest man there, then the women will oppress the men.

Peace,

But why only on an island? :hmm
Is there no place on earth except islands? :hmm
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 06, 2016, 01:37:19 PM
Peace,

But why only on an island? :hmm
Is there no place on earth except islands? :hmm

 :brickwall:

If I did not know that you were bigger then me then I would jump in plane right now, to oppress you very brutally  :yes
But for my own safety I have decided to stay home.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: es on March 06, 2016, 01:42:56 PM
Peace,

GREEN:  >:(
RED: Sorry but I can not agree with this. This is maybe true in some places or whatever, but that is imo not the reason.
I think the reason of abuse/violence is simply because the party who get's oppressed is weaker.
I am stronger then him or her so I can give that one a beating without fearing for myself.

I just did some googling.
According to some paper, in 2005 76% of the victims of domestic violence in The Netherlands was a female.
So this leaves us with 24 % of the victims as males.
So you think those male victims were only victim because they are male?
I do not think so, I think they were victim because they were weaker (and weaker does not always have to be in physical aspect).

I think the whole issue is not about genders but about oppression of the weaker party.
I think if you put in a island 100 women and 100 men, and all women are stronger then the strongest man there, then the women will oppress the men.
Not because they are men but because they are weaker then them.

But of course I did not do any study on it this, it is just what my mind is telling me.

I agree with you.

 :peace:

Sajda.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 07, 2016, 12:35:08 AM
llcrimes ar ecommitted because the criminal thinks his victim is weaker, because they can get away with it. That isan enabling factor, but not the cause.

In most cases of abuse and beating of children and women it is inside the family, obviously too where they can get aeay with it because of lack of witnesses or fear of worse thing, but that i an enabling factor not the cause. Women may beat up other women or may abuse them also because they can get away with it. Because they do not get along or because they ursue some interest. But the cause of the violence against women and children may be similar and it is not the fact that they are stronger, although that may bea factor,  and please do not say that other violence does not get attention it doe get it. It hs always got it and it continues to be so, but what did not get attention till very recen9tly was the domestic violence andmost domestic if not all violence has been exerted against women and children. That is, it starts with the women and may carry on with the children and sometimes the couple is violent together wit the children. But violence against childrne got earlier attention that violence against women. Somehow it ws understood that in a way it was logical.

S it i false that onlyviolence gainst women is getting attention, in fact it goes on and again the reason is not being stronger that is just the enabling factor, when it is. There is somethign else at work which different from other violence and it is, like Zulf said, a different thing. And if it is getting attention then it was high time it got it.

And musr add if it is becuse some are stronger thn the others ll men or almost would commit violence against women and children but they do not. Far from it, so it is not a question of being weaker or stronger butof having certai compulsions unchecked. It is not a question of men or women, but of certain traits that some men ar prone to with women just because they are women.

Why do you think we get the biblical tale of paradise where God formed the woman FOR the man and then made her subservient to him and the snake annd all that.

There is a mentality, a mental construct behind all that. o to see it is to be blinded.

It is not that victims of either sex are to be neglected, that is not that and it is not hapenning at any rate if it is happening it is not because now the beating of wome is getting attention, and not as much as it believed. It is talked a lot about and ued as logan to get votes but it doe ot get as much as would be thought.

Wome are also vicims of general violence, not of ciolence against women, but the complaint is not bout that because that kind of aggressionmore or less has been attended to always. But the terror for many years suffered by wome within four walls that is somethign else.

You say that men get that too, I do not deny it, but although it is very much dished out as a counter attack against the ight against violence against women it is being handled in communications as a kind of claiing that wome should not get much attention. I have not seen personnlly that kind of abuse of men, but I have seenso many cases against women...I do not say it does not exist because I have not seen it, no I do not say that, but rather that it should be handled properly not as a cause to ubdue the violence specific against women but as its own cause, because probably, it is reallywidespread there should be some cause, specific to it. In that case, abused men and women should be  solidarity cause, ot a competing cause, but it is the kind of thing like th emiseries of some countries people only think of them when some eople speak for Palestine, they are bothered by the fact that eople speak about Palestine, not by the miseries of other countries, but the use those miseries to counter Palestine, ?ee what I mean? Each cause its treatment and struggle, but to use a cause to neglect another cause is not a hlep.

o may be the domestic mistratment of males should be handled as such.

Salaam
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zulf on March 08, 2016, 07:39:03 AM
The next scenario happens to often, not only in abuse/violence, but in general:
"911 can I help you?"
"Hi, I am a man an my wife is abusing me"
":rotfl: ok thank you for calling and have a nice day, bye"  beep beep beep.
(911=society in general)

Well, if the man had said "chasing me with a knife" or "beating me with a hammer" perhaps the response would be proper. Just "abusing" sounds like she is hurling insults towards him.

Quote
If I am going to give a group extra privileges then it would be for sure not women just because they are women or because of statistics.
The ones who deserve in my view extra privileges are children,disabled people and elderly because they are not only physically weak but also mentally.

I don't see how highlighting a common problem and trying to change people's mind is to give undue privileges to someone.

Peace bro Bender O0
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Zulf on March 08, 2016, 08:14:06 AM
Though off topic, I'll just add that:

Women are at a disadvantage because of a combination of things:

1. Since ancient times, they were physically weaker. In a physical hunter and gatherer society physical strength meant you could dominate somebody. This attitude may have been passed down through DNA. Even today we have the same difference in physical strength, but although strength is not vital in society, it can still be used to bully someone. This is how I speculate at the moment.

2. Women are different from men. Men and women are not identical. One can tell difference between men and women. It seems to be a part of the human mindset to look down on, have fear of, and be hostile towards, anything which is perceived as different from oneself. Minority groups are being oppressed throughout the world. The odd kid in school is bullied. Immigrants are discriminated and slandered against. If men perceive themselves to be stronger than women (by fact, imagination, habit or tradition) they will also bully them.

3. For negative things to be expressed, you need a certain amount of fear, anger (you name it) in combination with lack of compassion, wisdom, imagination and mental restraints. Some men do, not all. So, of course all men do not act or think negatively towards women... just like all human beings are not murderers or robbers. Men are not worse than women. Human beings are dubious in general.

Women are not oppressed just because they are women, per se... there obviously must be more to it. Just like the hispanic immigrant aren't discriminated against just because he is hispanic. The reason is that he is 1) different and 2) in a weaker position, along with the mental prerequisites (fear, mental habits -> prejudice) in the minds of the discriminators. By the way, women are discriminated against in many more ways than just being physcially abused.

So, women are being subjected to harassment because they are easy prey.
Easy prey in terms of 1) physical strength and in terms of 2) moral weakness (I mean that the oppressor is the one morally weak, and so fails to remain good. It becomes easy to oppress when you have no integrity and are slave to your negativities and fears.)

I think it is wise to target ethnic/gender/class discrimination, even though there are other cases, situations and scenarios out there were oppression is taking place. This is not undue privilege for these targeted groups. Unfair treatment should be addressed everywhere, and it should be addressed in name so that it gets highlighted, otherwise it will drown in a Sea of Obscure Average Generality where nothing stands out and nothing can be addressed, and would therefor vanish into the shadows where the oppression may continue.

Cheers all

Feel free to point out any logical flaws of mine
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Comrox on March 08, 2016, 08:02:18 PM
Though off topic, I'll just add that:

Women are at a disadvantage because of a combination of things:

1. Since ancient times, they were physically weaker. In a physical hunter and gatherer society physical strength meant you could dominate somebody. This attitude may have been passed down through DNA. Even today we have the same difference in physical strength, but although strength is not vital in society, it can still be used to bully someone. This is how I speculate at the moment.

2. Women are different from men. Men and women are not identical. One can tell difference between men and women. It seems to be a part of the human mindset to look down on, have fear of, and be hostile towards, anything which is perceived as different from oneself. Minority groups are being oppressed throughout the world. The odd kid in school is bullied. Immigrants are discriminated and slandered against. If men perceive themselves to be stronger than women (by fact, imagination, habit or tradition) they will also bully them.

3. For negative things to be expressed, you need a certain amount of fear, anger (you name it) in combination with lack of compassion, wisdom, imagination and mental restraints. Some men do, not all. So, of course all men do not act or think negatively towards women... just like all human beings are not murderers or robbers. Men are not worse than women. Human beings are dubious in general.

Women are not oppressed just because they are women, per se... there obviously must be more to it. Just like the hispanic immigrant aren't discriminated against just because he is hispanic. The reason is that he is 1) different and 2) in a weaker position, along with the mental prerequisites (fear, mental habits -> prejudice) in the minds of the discriminators. By the way, women are discriminated against in many more ways than just being physcially abused.

So, women are being subjected to harassment because they are easy prey.
Easy prey in terms of 1) physical strength and in terms of 2) moral weakness (I mean that the oppressor is the one morally weak, and so fails to remain good. It becomes easy to oppress when you have no integrity and are slave to your negativities and fears.)

I think it is wise to target ethnic/gender/class discrimination, even though there are other cases, situations and scenarios out there were oppression is taking place. This is not undue privilege for these targeted groups. Unfair treatment should be addressed everywhere, and it should be addressed in name so that it gets highlighted, otherwise it will drown in a Sea of Obscure Average Generality where nothing stands out and nothing can be addressed, and would therefor vanish into the shadows where the oppression may continue.

Cheers all

Feel free to point out any logical flaws of mine

Interesting post Zulf. Well said.

Peace. :)
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 09, 2016, 02:27:19 AM
Well, if the man had said "chasing me with a knife" or "beating me with a hammer" perhaps the response would be proper. Just "abusing" sounds like she is hurling insults towards him.
what you descibe sounds more like an attempt to murder to me  ;)

Quote
I don't see how highlighting a common problem and trying to change people's mind is to give undue privileges to someone.
Peace bro Bender O0

That's advanced math, very difficult to understand  ;)

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant with highlighting/stressing. Isn't it already very well known who the majority of victims are in domestic violence?
I think if you want to highlight a group then maybe it's better to highlight that men and elderly are also victims of domestic violence, I think a lot of people do not know this or do not take it serious.
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 09, 2016, 08:03:27 AM
Women beating has been around for milennia. Now it is getting sommme attention. Abuse of parents, old or not so old, is something that is widespreading now. I do not know whether it happnened as a social isue before, but what is going on now is somewhat new. I can't see that stresing the abuse of women, very widespread favours the neglect of other groups. I brin up again what I said about Palestine in aother post. How does the
action, at whatever level in favour of Palestine wron any other just cause in the world. I would say it favours it. But crying against action for Palestine because there are other causes not as flagrant but also very wrong is barking at the wron tree.

Old parents are abused because peole struggle against beating women, but it is something enw and there are causes for it and these must be addressed. At the bottom there is a single cause like making consumables of persons. You come to think that using persons for you own reward and watever cost for the persons abused is just acceptable to the doers. How have they come up to such understanding, or rather misunderstanding.

Again I do not think that the fight against mistreatment of women should be lessenned. There are still waaay too may who put up with hummiliation and cruelty for years... feeling that they are less tha shit.

But as I also said regarding Palestine, why not ope threads for those things that are estimated to get less attention than they deserve instead of charging against the complaint for the ake of Palestine.


I do not hink the battle against maltreatmnt and beating and terrorising of women is won, far from it. It would be a shame that it is dropped or disregarded or lessenned. It destroys social
cohesion and carries on damaging the next generation more than meets the eye.

So, Bender, I encourage you to open threads where other strains of evilness towards other huamn beings are highlighted.

Salaam
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: Bender on March 09, 2016, 03:55:39 PM
Women beating has been around for milennia. Now it is getting sommme attention. Abuse of parents, old or not so old, is something that is widespreading now. I do not know whether it happnened as a social isue before, but what is going on now is somewhat new. I can't see that stresing the abuse of women, very widespread favours the neglect of other groups. I brin up again what I said about Palestine in aother post. How does the
action, at whatever level in favour of Palestine wron any other just cause in the world. I would say it favours it. But crying against action for Palestine because there are other causes not as flagrant but also very wrong is barking at the wron tree.

Old parents are abused because peole struggle against beating women, but it is something enw and there are causes for it and these must be addressed. At the bottom there is a single cause like making consumables of persons. You come to think that using persons for you own reward and watever cost for the persons abused is just acceptable to the doers. How have they come up to such understanding, or rather misunderstanding.

Again I do not think that the fight against mistreatment of women should be lessenned. There are still waaay too may who put up with hummiliation and cruelty for years... feeling that they are less tha shit.

But as I also said regarding Palestine, why not ope threads for those things that are estimated to get less attention than they deserve instead of charging against the complaint for the ake of Palestine.


I do not hink the battle against maltreatmnt and beating and terrorising of women is won, far from it. It would be a shame that it is dropped or disregarded or lessenned. It destroys social
cohesion and carries on damaging the next generation more than meets the eye.

So, Bender, I encourage you to open threads where other strains of evilness towards other huamn beings are highlighted.

Salaam

Hi Huruf,

I think in fact palestine is the opposite. What happend and still happens in africa is so much worse and in larger numbers than palestine, think of the Rwandan genocide.
When we came to know what actually happend there the population was almost extinct. And even when we knew what was happening it was not important.
The important ones are the palestines.
They are important because we see them everyday on the news, they got/get so much attention that other groups who are maybe even in more danger are simply neglected.

RED: There are happily better people than me who in fact are doing this. Here in the Netherlands I see every know and then a "commercial" about a "forgotten" group to remind people.

I do not say that women deserve less attention then they do get now, I am only saying that we have not to forget other groups.
But I guess you and Zulf are saying the same only reasoned from a different angle ;)
Title: Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
Post by: huruf on March 10, 2016, 01:15:27 AM
Paletine would have gone down the drain just as so many genocides had it not met with resistance, enough resistance to make it lt for years. Had the genociders succeeded in the first three years of the crime, we would be happily carrying on and learning history wrong or right but thinking that what a pity a peple dissappeared. So there was resistance and so we get an opportunity of ... Of what? of not forgetting that crime is crime.

The point over that is that those who bring up something when we still carry on upporting Palestine is that they come up withthe complaining over other things, just and only just, whenPalestine is spoken about. NOthing prevent anybody from supporting whatever cause hey deem worth. The poit being if something which is all over, that we cannot say we do not know about, still get executed, than there is very little hope of anything, wither for Palestine or for anything else that is not in the interest of the most powerful.

Quote
But I guess you and Zulf are saying the same only reasoned from a different angle

Tat is what I tink. Women donot get helped if others ar beaten and like wise nobody gets helped because women are beaten. So really I guess that each person tries hi or her best those aspcts he or she is most knowledgeable or more directly touched.

Women have been beaten and abused for ages because it was considered tat nobody should intervene in affairs of he family and the head of the family was the amle, so that was it. How unlucky for a woman if she wa beati or mistreated

Today we all have high ideals about nobody being mistreated, but the thing is that the mentality that is winning is the metality of the moral right of power, ifyou can get away with something, you are not scum but successful so you tread on anybody that botherss you or wo happens to arouse your nasty feelings, be it parent, a meeker person, a woman where "she shouldn't be"... the list may be long, but the main overall culprit is the lack of morality and self-satisfaction. We crave and crave and crave and there is no end to craving, but never anything is enough to satify us... Humiliating others makes us feel more powerful...

We get taught tht through media and through news. "News is a great school of inmorality and unhumanness.

Salaam