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Other Issues => Hadith Discussions => Topic started by: shamsul-arefin on April 10, 2004, 12:35:49 AM

Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 10, 2004, 12:35:49 AM
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.537


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/071.sbt.html#007.071.673
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Andya Primanda on April 10, 2004, 12:46:12 AM
Peace shamsul-arifin

Or better yet, I dare anyone prove its scientific validity by doing an actual experiment!

I have designed experimental methods to test this hadiths hypothesis.  Details are available upon request.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 10, 2004, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: "Andya Primanda"
Peace shamsul-arifin

Or better yet, I dare anyone prove its scientific validity by doing an actual experiment!

I have designed experimental methods to test this hadiths hypothesis.  Details are available upon request.



There can be many interpretations on this hadith and many attempts to prove it right by extracting certain information?s and than mixing it with present scientific findings than give a most acceptable explanation.

But thats something goes off the topic as the hadith above is trying to say. I would like to know if the hadith is true than how is it meant to be practiced..?

peace
Title: Re: How are these Hadith explained...??
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 08:15:40 AM
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.537


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/071.sbt.html#007.071.673


The Ahadith explain themselves, so I can't see hw anyone with eyes and bit of a brain can see an difficulties with the Hadith.

The reason is that the fly might have contaminated the drink with it's poisinous body fluids. However, within the body of the fly itself, there are chemicals that can neautralise these poisoneous fluids.

If you think about it... the body of the snake contains deadly venom, yet the snake remains alive. WHy is that. Because within its body there are chemicals that can neautralise the poison of the snake and therefore has no affect on the snake.

Therefore, if you dip the fly totally into the drink, you will neautral the drink if it got contaminated with some poisoneous chemicals.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 08:18:34 AM
Quote from: "Andya Primanda"
Peace shamsul-arifin

Or better yet, I dare anyone prove its scientific validity by doing an actual experiment!

I have designed experimental methods to test this hadiths hypothesis.  Details are available upon request.



That would be great if someone could do that.
Title: Re: How are these Hadith explained...??
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 10, 2004, 09:11:38 AM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.537


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/071.sbt.html#007.071.673


The Ahadith explain themselves, so I can't see hw anyone with eyes and bit of a brain can see an difficulties with the Hadith.

The reason is that the fly might have contaminated the drink with it's poisinous body fluids. However, within the body of the fly itself, there are chemicals that can neautralise these poisoneous fluids.

If you think about it... the body of the snake contains deadly venom, yet the snake remains alive. WHy is that. Because within its body there are chemicals that can neautralise the poison of the snake and therefore has no affect on the snake.

Therefore, if you dip the fly totally into the drink, you will neautral the drink if it got contaminated with some poisoneous chemicals.



dear zed,

             Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I was quite aware of your interpretation and I also thought of that even before posting it. So the literal practice of this is that if a Fly carrying malaria or any other disease falls on a glass of milk than we should dip the fly more in the milk.

So I think it would be better if we can get a Doctors opinion on this part as how practical is this hadith. I think we need to do some probable test on that technique of curing disease so that we can get a more clear understanding.

So anyone here of that skill who can verify this method..???

Peace
Title: Re: How are these Hadith explained...??
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 09:35:55 AM
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
dear zed,

             Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I was quite aware of your interpretation and I also thought of that even before posting it. So the literal practice of this is that if a Fly carrying malaria or any other disease falls on a glass of milk than we should dip the fly more in the milk.

So I think it would be better if we can get a Doctors opinion on this part as how practical is this hadith. I think we need to do some probable test on that technique of curing disease so that we can get a more clear understanding.

So anyone here of that skill who can verify this method..???

Peace


*cough* *cough* .... first of all, I think the Hadith mentions "house fly"... you are referring to a mosquito. I don't think a mosquito would land in your tea or drink!! :lol:

Anyway, on the issue of a mosquito.... there is a higher chance of catching malaria from a mosquito if it stings you directly on your skin... the infection goes straight into the blood stream...

The "infection" of a house fly on the otherhand will not end up in your blood stream. First of all... you will have neautralised the infection by dipping it in the drink, this is done in two ways.. 1) within the body of the flie there is antidote to it's own poison.. 2) by dipping it.. you have diluted the infecteous chemicals in the drink and therefore their potency of the disease.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Tay on April 10, 2004, 10:00:47 AM
Peace Zed,

Flies do not carry venom like a snake. They transmit bacteria and disease based on what they feed on: carcusses, rotting food, and open wounds. They transmit these bacteria to humans, although they do not transmit any "antidote". Marinating a fly in a drink will not "dilute" the effect of the contaminants, unless of course, you're drinking alcohol. If a fly lands on your food or in your drink, the best thing to do is throw it away.

They can carry and transmit: typhoid fever, cholera, dysentery, pinworms, hookworms, and some tapeworms, all of which can infect the person by digesting the fly, whether "diluted" in a non-alcoholic drink or not.

Check out http://medent.usyd.edu.au/fact/nonbitingflies.htm for more info.

Here's a little clip:

Department of Medical Entomology
...Flies are equipped with special sensory cells on their antennae and feet which enable them to locate suitable food and egg laying sites. These sensory cells aid in detecting compounds such as ammonia, carbon dioxide and other strong compounds that are emitted from decomposing organic materials, such as carrion and faeces. The free interchange flies have with such sites ensures the flies are laden with bacteria on their mouthparts, body hairs and the sticky pads of their feet, as well as in their stomachs (where the bacteria rapidly multiply), faeces and vomitus. Contact with any foodstuffs, or feeding, which often involves vomiting and defecating, will contaminate food, preparation surfaces and utensils with potentially disease causing organisms. Eggs or young larvae may also be deposited if the substrate is deemed suitable for oviposition by the fly. Flies can be strongly attracted to uncovered, malodorous wounds, body openings, open sores or damaged skin...

Peace,
Tay
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 10:13:53 AM
Quote from: "Tay"
Flies do not carry venom like a snake.


I didn't say they did.  :roll:


Quote
They transmit bacteria and disease based on what they feed on: carcusses, rotting food, and open wounds. They transmit these bacteria to humans, although they do not transmit any "antidote". Marinating a fly in a drink will not "dilute" the effect of the contaminants, unless of course, you're drinking alcohol. If a fly lands on your food or in your drink, the best thing to do is throw it away.

They can carry and transmit: typhoid fever, cholera, dysentery, pinworms, hookworms, and some tapeworms, all of which can infect the person by digesting the fly, whether "diluted" in a non-alcoholic drink or not.

Check out http://medent.usyd.edu.au/fact/nonbitingflies.htm for more info.

Here's a little clip:

Department of Medical Entomology
...Flies are equipped with special sensory cells on their antennae and feet which enable them to locate suitable food and egg laying sites. These sensory cells aid in detecting compounds such as ammonia, carbon dioxide and other strong compounds that are emitted from decomposing organic materials, such as carrion and faeces. The free interchange flies have with such sites ensures the flies are laden with bacteria on their mouthparts, body hairs and the sticky pads of their feet, as well as in their stomachs (where the bacteria rapidly multiply), faeces and vomitus. Contact with any foodstuffs, or feeding, which often involves vomiting and defecating, will contaminate food, preparation surfaces and utensils with potentially disease causing organisms. Eggs or young larvae may also be deposited if the substrate is deemed suitable for oviposition by the fly. Flies can be strongly attracted to uncovered, malodorous wounds, body openings, open sores or damaged skin...

Peace,
Tay



Yeh, thanks for the info dude.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Tay on April 10, 2004, 11:38:33 AM
No problem, brother.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Alireza on April 10, 2004, 11:44:22 AM
Quote
The Ahadith explain themselves, so I can't see hw anyone with eyes and bit of a brain can see an difficulties with the Hadith.

The reason is that the fly might have contaminated the drink with it's poisinous body fluids. However, within the body of the fly itself, there are chemicals that can neautralise these poisoneous fluids.

If you think about it... the body of the snake contains deadly venom, yet the snake remains alive. WHy is that. Because within its body there are chemicals that can neautralise the poison of the snake and therefore has no affect on the snake.

Therefore, if you dip the fly totally into the drink, you will neautral the drink if it got contaminated with some poisoneous chemicals.



Brothers and sisters.. People like Zed who believe in this kind of nonsense, are no danger.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: zenje on April 10, 2004, 12:04:21 PM
You're right Alireza! :lol:  It's kinda like someone with down syndrome, they can only hurt themselves.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: "Alireza"
Brothers and sisters.. People like Zed who believe in this kind of nonsense, are no danger.


Brothers and Sisters, you have some scientific evidence to prove this wrong do you???   :roll:  :roll:  :roll:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Incognito on April 10, 2004, 02:31:26 PM
Salam PrinceZ?D

Quote
Brothers and Sisters, you have some scientific evidence to prove this wrong do you???  


To prove what wrong? That flies contain

Quote
chemicals that can neautralise these poisoneous fluids


Flies spread disease by pathogenic microbes, as brother Tay has rightly pointed out. There are no "poisonous fluids" contained within a fly. Nor do they have antidotes to these "poisons". Although I may be wrong, do you have any proof (as in scientific, as to whether the existence of these poisons?)

Brother Z?D,

Can I ask, if you don't mind my asking, whether you follow this hadith? Do you personally, submerge flies in your drinks when they land in your cup, and then drink it? What about food? Do you eat food upon which insects have landed?

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Feshari on April 10, 2004, 02:45:11 PM
One more reason why hadiths are ridiculous.

Dipping flies in  your drinks?  :roll:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Jaxal on April 10, 2004, 02:52:22 PM
SaLaM ...

Quote
The Ahadith explain themselves, so I can't see hw anyone with eyes and bit of a brain can see an difficulties with the Hadith.


Really??? No kidding.. the Quran explains it self too.. so i guess u must be blind and stupid to not to believe it ... hmm?? looooooooolll
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 06:33:29 PM
Quote from: "Incognito"
Flies spread disease by pathogenic microbes, as brother Tay has rightly pointed out.


LOL!!! And your proof is based on what "Tay" said!! Nice proof. ;)


I think all of you have taken this topic into a different direction. We are discussing the validity of the hadith here.


Quote
There are no "poisonous fluids" contained within a fly.


Why don't you eat flies and se what happened to you!! :lol:



Quote
Nor do they have antidotes to these "poisons".



And your proof is "because Tay" said so!!! LOL!!! :lol:


Quote
Although I may be wrong, do you have any proof (as in scientific, as to whether the existence of these poisons?)


Why don't you start a diet on eating flies!!! :lol: :lol:


Quote
Can I ask, if you don't mind my asking, whether you follow this hadith? Do you personally, submerge flies in your drinks when they land in your cup, and then drink it? What about food? Do you eat food upon which insects have landed?



The place I live right now doesn't have any flies flying around. If a fly did land in my cup of tea or whatever, I would throw it away, and fill my cup with tea tea!!! :D

You don't understand that at the time of the Holy Prophet, where the people used to live in middle of deserts and therefore, water (and food)was of shortage, people cannot just throw away their food or drink because it got contaminated with something.

Therefore, in those times.. even if a fly did land in your cup you had to drink it otherwise you wouldn't be getting anymore and will be  left thirsty or hungary. In those times, as the Hadith suggests, if a fly did land in your cup, dip it totally and throw the fly away.... since.. as the Holy Prophet (pbuh) states: one wing of fly contains certain bioligical particles that would result in giving disease to the person, while the other wing provides the cure. You have not sientifically proven this to be false, so don't be so arrogant and that too for something you have no knowledge of and ALSO going against the words of God, since you are rejecting the words of the prophet (pbuh).. which too you have not PROVEN to be false.

You people are standing on dangerous grounds.  :shock:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Idris on April 10, 2004, 06:49:24 PM
Quote
The place I live right now doesn't have any flies flying around. If a fly did land in my cup of tea or whatever, I would throw it away, and fill my cup with tea tea!!!  

You don't understand that at the time of the Holy Prophet, where the people used to live in middle of deserts and therefore, water (and food)was of shortage, people cannot just throw away their food or drink because it got contaminated with something.

Therefore, in those times.. even if a fly did land in your cup you had to drink it otherwise you wouldn't be getting anymore and will be left thirsty or hungary. In those times, as the Hadith suggests, if a fly did land in your cup, dip it totally and throw the fly away.... since.. as the Holy Prophet (pbuh) states: one wing of fly contains certain bioligical particles that would result in giving disease to the person, while the other wing provides the cure. You have not sientifically proven this to be false, so don't be so arrogant and that too for something you have no knowledge of and ALSO going against the words of God, since you are rejecting the words of the prophet (pbuh).. which too you have not PROVEN to be false.

You people are standing on dangerous grounds.


so according to you this hadith is only for the people of Muhammad's time and place but how does one going about the hadiths choosing which is for the people of Muhammad's time and place and which is for the people of this day and age? if these hadiths came from God Whose Book is for people of all different places and times should not these same hadiths be for people of all ages and times? I'll await your response

rebuttal to this hadith

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/flies.html

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease." (Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537)

Here is what the medical world says:

There are many bacteria and parasites that infest the fly, making flies a major factor in spreading many diseases by touching surfaces with their legs or their saliva. After walking on much excrement, flies may carry up to as many as 6 million bacterias on their feet. SO BE WARY OF FOODS THAT HAVE BEEN TOUCHED BY A FLY! Here's some information on the diseases some flies are known to help spread. (Source: http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/html/diseases.html; emphasis mine)

Even if there should exist such a disease that is only carried on one wing of a fly, and the antidote always coming on the other wing (any scientist of bacteriology will reject such a theory as impossible), what about all the other diseases on the feet of the fly? Why is Muhammad talking about the wings, when the main source of infection are the feet of flies?

Why is Muhammad making sure with his instruction that the fly gets a full body ablution in your drink, transfering the maximum number of bacteria and diseases into it?

Another website has this to say about flies:

... The two-winged flies constitute a larger order of insects and well over 110,000 different species are known throughout the world. This group forms one of the most highly specialized of insect orders and many species are of the utmost significance in regard to human welfare. If there is anything as "harmless as a fly", it is certainly not the common housefly or any of its relatives.
Diseases, e.g., malaria, dysentery, sleeping sickness, onchocerciasis, elephantiasis and yellow fever are carried or transmitted from man to man by bloodsucking dipterous flies. Many other diseases are transmitted mechanically by flies due to the habit exhibited by many species of sucking liquid from excreta and other decaying organic matter and then settling on and vomiting on your food.

The fly was made to distribute quantities of pathogenic disease organisms. Its 6 feet are equipped with bristles and sticky pads and its proboscis is hairy. A sticky liquid comes out of the hollow hairs on their feet allowing them to walk upside down and on glass, etc. The fly's digestive tract is an incubator for germs! My mother began to teach me IPM control when I was a very young boy. She said, "Shut the door you are letting in the flies!" This is still good advice - even better is to have a second entry door as an extra barrier against fly invasion.

... A well fed fly defecates at least once every 5 minutes!

(Source: http://www.thebestcontrol.com/bugstop/control_flies.htm; bold emphasis theirs, underline emphasis mine)

No doubt, the stress put on a fly by drowning it, would only cause it to vomit and defecate even more, releasing an extra portion of germs into your drink!

The first of the above links provides an even more detailed list of diseases that are transmitted by flies:

Leishmaniasis

This disease is found in South America, Africa, Indian Subcontinent and Europe.
It's caused by a parasitic protozoan transmitted by the bite of sand flies.
Symptoms of this disease usually includes fever, weakness, swollen spleen, and skin sores.
There is no treatment for this disease; it eats away at your skin.


Onchocerciasis

Onchocerciasis, also known as River Blindness is an infectious cause of blindness.
It is carried by a minute nematode worm that is spread by the Simulium black fly.
Found in South America and Africa, a bite from this insect can transmit the worm to its victim.
The drug invermectin has helped stop the progress of the disease.


African Trypanosomiasis

This is a sleeping sickness and epidemic caused by a protozan blood parasite Trypanosoma.
It is transmitted by the salivary glands of infected Tsetse flies in Africa.
Symptoms include a boil- like sore at the site of the bite, fever, headaches, and severe illness.
Treatment should apply in the early stages of the disease by anti-parasitic drugs.


Bartonellosis

Found in South America, this disease is caused by the rickettsia organism transmitted by the bite of a Sand Fly.
Victims are usually exhausted from anemia, and experience a high fever and wart-like eruptions on the skin.
Treatment is available.


Myiasis

This disease occurs mostly on animals such as dogs and sheep and cows, but sometimes it may occur on humans, more frequently carried by the Cheese Skipper fly.
It is transmitted by a fly that lays its eggs on the skin of another organism. The larvae can burrow into the skin or penetrate itself in open wounds.
Symptoms include violent abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea with bloody discharge.
There is currently no treatment for this disease (on humans, that is; on animals insecticides are used), except to either let the larvae grow and leave at its own accord, or to remove it by enticing it.


Typhoid

Flies rummaging around excrement may come across bacteria known as Salmonella Typhi, which may come from a person shedding it.
This disease is a type of fever. Symptoms include a body temperature of as high as 103? to 104? F (39? to 40? C), weakness, stomach pains, headaches, and/or loss of appetite.
This disease can be found all over the world except in industrial countries such as United States, Western Europe, and Japan.
Treated with the drug chloromycetin, or ampicillin for those infected with bacteria that is immuned chloromycetin.


Dysentery

This is a chronic disease that affects the large intestine in humans.
The parasite Entamoeba histolytica is the cause of this disease. This particular parasite can be found in uncooked meats, and may be transported by flies.
This disease is characteristic of severe diarrhea and severe stomach cramps.
Treatment with drugs containing metronidazole or ementine is recommended.


Leprosy

Leprosy, also known as Hansen's Disease, is a chronic disease that affects mainly the skin.
It is caused by the bacillus Mycobacterium leprae, which may be carried by flies from rotted foods.
An early symptom is anesthesia (or the numbness) of a patch of skin. Some muscles may be paralyzed. Because of the numbness of some nerves, injuries to the area are not noticed.
This disease is generally rare nowadays, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A vaccine for leprosy is currently being developed.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 07:54:22 PM
Quote from: "Idris"
so according to you this hadith is only for the people of Muhammad's time and place but how does one going about the hadiths choosing which is for the people of Muhammad's time and place and which is for the people of this day and age? if these hadiths came from God Whose Book is for people of all different places and times should not these same hadiths be for people of all ages and times? I'll await your response


And when did I say it is "only" for the people at the time of the prophet???  :roll:  I was giving you explanation and an answer to your question "would you do this?".

To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).

However, notice that there is no recommendation or the obligation to drink the drink in which a fly has fallen. ;)


The wisdom is what you people lack. You do not understand the message of the Hadith, but instead you go on and on about debate over silly and childish things.

The wisdom is that within the body or an animal, insect or anything that is poisoneous, there is also an antidote. :)
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Feshari on April 10, 2004, 09:34:18 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"


To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).



Oh please.  That's idiocy. It's scientifically known that flies cause diseases! Yet you would foolishly drink something that contains known diseases.  

Sigh.  How is that following the prophet?  That's following fools like Bukhari et al.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: "Feshari"
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"


To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).



Oh please.  That's idiocy. It's scientifically known that flies cause diseases! Yet you would foolishly drink something that contains known diseases.  

Sigh.  How is that following the prophet?  That's following fools like Bukhari et al.


Excuse me, but if you are going to come in like this in the middle of a discussion, it would be wise if you first read what we have been talking about instead of quoting out of context...

Besides.. I make that statement in context.. and you still cut my words into bit and made it look like something I didn't say.. let me quote to you the words you quoted of mine in its context:


Quote from: "PrinceZ?d"
To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).

However, notice that there is no recommendation or the obligation to drink the drink in which a fly has fallen.


Can't you read my words that I would not drink it, although if I had to (maybe because I am poor and can't afford another dink) then I would drink it.. without worrying about being infected with disease since I have the words of the Prophet (pbuh) and hence inspiration of God to back me up!! :) :) :)
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: David on April 10, 2004, 09:49:39 PM
Salam Prince,

Which is it? You would or you wouldn't?

Quote
To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).


Quote
The place I live right now doesn't have any flies flying around. If a fly did land in my cup of tea or whatever, I would throw it away, and fill my cup with tea tea!!!


Also, you did not answer my question about apostasy which I asked earlier. Is that hadith you posted earlier referring to both men and women apostates?

Here is what you posted

Quote
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims." [Bukhari, volume 9, 17]


My question was in this link:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1467&start=100

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 09:59:33 PM
Quote from: "David"
Salam Prince,

Which is it? You would or you wouldn't?


When did I say I wouldn't?? The answer is I WOULD. :)
However, you keep seeing the obligation to drink the drink :lol:
There is no obligation to eat or drink seomthing that you do not want... as stated above, this practice would be feasible and useful for those who are deprived of food and drink, who are poor, and in those times lived in desert with hardly any or no water at all.

For the present age, the hadith teaches that within the body of an animal or insect, there is a cure for the disease it can infect to others. :)




Do you know that when Uwais Qarni heard that the prophet (pbuh)'s teeth were martyred in a battle, in sorow of this and in following the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh), he broke one of his tooth too. Then he thought that maybe it was the next tooth that the prophet broke, so he broke the next one, and he kept doing this until he broke all his own teeth.

This is the love that real followers of the prophet (pbuh) had for him.  :cry:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: David on April 10, 2004, 10:43:04 PM
Salam Prince,

Okay, thanks, now I understand. You would dip the fly in your drink, but you would not drink the drink. Is that right?

So now I have some more questions:

1) What is the purpose of that hadith?

To me it seems to say that one should not throw away a perfectly good drink just because a fly fell in it. One should dip the fly and continue drinking.

(Is this also your understanding for the purpose of the hadith? Yes, I realize it does not mention drinking, but then what would be the point, right?)

2) You mention that you would not drink it unless you had to:

Quote
I would not drink it, although if I had to (maybe because I am poor and can't afford another dink) then I would drink it..


Why would you not drink it?

For instance, if an eyelash fell into my drink, I would remove the eyelash and continue drinking without any hesitation. So, if a fly falls into your drink, and you believe that Muhammad's (alleged) dictate of fly dipping would nullify the fly having fell into the drink in the first place, why would you not continue drinking your drink?

Peace

P.S. You still have not answered my question about apostasy.
Title: Re: How are these Hadith explained...??
Post by: esimsek100 on April 10, 2004, 11:03:12 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"

If you think about it... the body of the snake contains deadly venom, yet the snake remains alive. WHy is that. Because within its body there are chemicals that can neautralise the poison of the snake and therefore has no affect on the snake.


Snake's still have conflicts with each other, some snakes eat other species of snakes. But please do note that a snakes venom still has the desired effect on other snakes. So no, snakes are not immune from poisonous venom.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 10, 2004, 11:13:38 PM
Quote from: "David"
Salam Prince,

Okay, thanks, now I understand. You would dip the fly in your drink, but you would not drink the drink. Is that right?


YES. See explanation below for purpose of Hadith:


Quote
So now I have some more questions:

1) What is the purpose of that hadith?

To me it seems to say that one should not throw away a perfectly good drink just because a fly fell in it. One should dip the fly and continue drinking.

(Is this also your understanding for the purpose of the hadith? Yes, I realize it does not mention drinking, but then what would be the point, right?)



1) I have explained this again and again if you refer to the posts above. In short, the Hadith was useful and feasible at the time of prophet when there was mush poverty and deprivation of food and drink. These people lived in the desert mostly, and therfore that was lack of water. A person wouldn't just throw away his drink. The hadith is referring to these situations that if you really had to drink your drink, then dip the fly totally into the drink instead of partly since within the wings of the fly, there is a disease in one and a cure in the other. No one has yet scientifically proven otherwise.

2) For the purpose of present time, it taches us the scientific fact that within the body (or wings to be precise) there is a disease in one and a cure in the other.


Quote
2) You mention that you would not drink it unless you had to:

Quote
I would not drink it, although if I had to (maybe because I am poor and can't afford another dink) then I would drink it..


Why would you not drink it?

For instance, if an eyelash fell into my drink, I would remove the eyelash and continue drinking without any hesitation. So, if a fly falls into your drink, and you believe that Muhammad's (alleged) dictate of fly dipping would nullify the fly having fell into the drink in the first place, why would you not continue drinking your drink?


Again, see how your mind goes back to the obligation to drink when there is no obligation??? :lol:
The Hadith does not say that "dip the fly and then drink the drink", does it?? As explained in point 1, this practice was for those deprived of food and drink, poor, who could not afford a drink and therefore had to drink what they had otherwise they were not going to get anything.


The reason why I wouldn't drink it is because of personal choice. Althought, I have full faith and trust in the Prophet's (pbuh) words that dipping the fly would neautralise any contamination transfered into the drink. If the Prophet (pbuh) had said that "dip the fly and drink the drink", then I would have drank my drink!! But has stated againd and again, there is no obligation.


The real message of the Hadith is that within the wings of the fly, there are some disease producing cells in one wing, and disease curing cells in the other cell. So why are people so naive and simple minded and begin an endless debate about "dipping the fly"???!!! :lol:



Quote
P.S. You still have not answered my question about apostasy.


Sorry dude, been busy.. and got all these other posts in line with discussion to reply to as well, so maybe we will discuss later when I have some free time.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: neo on April 10, 2004, 11:47:14 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
1) I have explained this again and again if you refer to the posts above. In short, the Hadith was useful and feasible at the time of prophet...


I think that answers it right there, the rest of your post isn't needed (and it isn't very scientifically accurate either). The hadith were made for THOSE times, and do not apply now. Otherwise, you'd be dipping your fly on your drink as we speak.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Tay on April 10, 2004, 11:53:25 PM
Peace Prince,

Nice try in deflecting the criticism to me. I referred you to the website for more info, but of course you didn't bother to check it out.

Here's what you missed:

Quote
TYPHOID FEVER - An infectious febrile illness usually spread by contamination of food, milk, or water supplies with Salmonella typhi, either directly by sewage, indirectly by flies, or by faulty personal hygiene.


...

Quote
www.cdc.gov
Typhoid fever is a life-threatening illness caused by the bacterium Salmonella Typhi. In the United States about 400 cases occur each year, and 70% of these are acquired while traveling internationally. Typhoid fever is still common in the developing world, where it affects about 12.5 million persons each year.


Despite your wishful thinking, the antidote is not carried on the fly's wing.

Quote
What do you do if you think you have typhoid fever?

If you suspect you have typhoid fever, see a doctor immediately. If you are traveling in a foreign country, you can usually call the U.S. consulate for a list of recommended doctors.

You will probably be given an antibiotic to treat the disease. Three commonly prescribed antibiotics are ampicillin, trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole, and ciprofloxacin. Persons given antibiotics usually begin to feel better within 2 to 3 days, and deaths rarely occur. However, persons who do not get treatment may continue to have fever for weeks or months, and as many as 20% may die from complications of the infection.


Notice no mention of fly wings.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: FRANK on April 11, 2004, 12:09:46 AM
Asalamu alaikum,Muslims,Hello otherrs.....>>>>Dr. Ghyath Hasan al-Ahmad in his book al-Tibb al-Nabawi fi Daw' al-`Ilm al-Hadith ("Prophetic Medicine in the light of Modern Science") (1995 2:188-189) mentions that a Dr. Nab?h D?`ish ran an experiment at King `Abd al-`Aziz University in Ryadh in which he created ten bacterial cultures from samples of sterilized fluid into which a fly fell without being immersed; ten more bacterial cultures from samples into which a fly fell and was immersed once; ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed twice; and ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed three times. The results showed that bacterial colonies thrived in the first set but were stunted and depleted in the second, more so in the third, and most in the fourth set.It is established that house flies are carriers of dangerous pathogens of animals and humans. Even the muscaphobic critics of this hadith are forced to admit that no one at the time of the Prophet, upon him peace, knew that flies carry such harmful organisms. Whence the observation that "under one of its wings there is venom"?
Second, from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.

Further, the transmission of what the fly carries in or on its body is not an automatic fact. For example, the microbe responsible for ulcers and other stomach ailments can live on houseflies, although it remains to be seen whether flies transmit the pathogen. http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/6_7_97/ref1.htm

There has long been evidence of bacterial pathogen-suppressing micro-organisms living in houseflies. An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation's Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated:

The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies - bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity against four other kinds.

Cited in `Abd Allah al-Qusami, Mushkilat al-Ahadith al-Nabawiyya wa-Bayanuha (p. 42).

More recently, a Colorado State University website on entomology states, "Gnotobiotic [=germ-free] insects (Greenberg et al, 1970) were used to provide evidence of the bacterial pathogen-suppressing ability of the microbiota of Musca domestica [houseflies] .... most relationships between insects and their microbiota remain undefined. Studies with gnotobiotic locusts suggest that the microbiota confers previously unexpected benefits for the insect host." http://lamar.colostate.edu/~insects/systems/digestion/plenuryrd.html

So then, flies are not only pathogenic carriers but also carry microbiota that can be beneficent. The fly microbiota were described as "longitudinal yeast cells living as parasites inside their bellies. These yeast cells, in order to perpetuate their life cycle, protrude through certain respiratory tubules of the fly. If the fly is dipped in a liquid, the cells burst into the fluid and the content of those cells is an antidote for the pathogens which the fly carries." Cf. Footnote in the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammad Muhsin Khan (7:372, Book 76 Medicine, Chapter 58, Hadith 5782).

These fly microbiota are bacteriophagic or "germ-eating". Bacteriophages are viruses of viruses. They attack viruses and bacteria. They can be selected and bred to kill specific organisms. The viruses infect a bacterium, replicate and fill the bacterial cell with new copies of the virus, and then break through the bacterium's cell wall, causing it to burst. The existence of similar bacteria-killing mechanisms in two bacteriophages suggests that antibiotics for human infections might be designed on the basis of these cell wall-destroying proteins. Science 292 (June 2001) p. 2326-2329.

Bacteriophagic medicine was available in the West before the forties but was discontinued when penicillin and other "miracle antibiotics" came out. Bacteriophages continued to flourish in Eastern Europe as an over-the-counter medicine. The "O1-phage" has been used for diagnosis of all Salmonella types while the prophylaxis of Shigella dysentery was conducted with the help of phages. Annales Immunologiae Hungaricae No. 9 (1966) in German.

"Phage therapy" is now making a comeback in the West:

First named in 1917 by researcher Felix d'Herelle at France's Pasteur Institute, bacteriophages (or just phages for short) are viruses that prey upon bacteria. They have a simple structure - a DNA-filled head attached by a shaft to spidery "legs" that are used to grip onto the surface of a bacterium. Once a phage latches onto a bacterium, it injects its payload of genetic material into the bacterium's innards. The bacterium then begins to rapidly produce "daughter" copies of the phage -- until the bacterium becomes too full and ruptures, sending hundreds of new phage particles into the open world.

Doctors used phages as medical treatment for illnesses ranging from cholera to typhoid fevers. In some cases, a liquid containing the phage was poured into an open wound. In others, they were given orally, via aerosol, or injected. In some cases, the treatments worked well - in others, they did not. When antibiotics came into the mainstream, phage therapy largely faded in the west.

However, researchers in eastern Europe, including the former Soviet Union, continued their studies of the potential healing properties of phages. And now that strains of bacteria resistant to standard antibiotics are on the rise, the idea of phage therapy has been getting more attention in the worldwide medical community. Several biotechnology companies have been formed in the U.S. to develop bacteriophage-based treatments - many of them drawing on the expertise of researchers from eastern Europe."

http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2000/Jul/hour1_072100.html





Research on the medical application of bacteriophages is now considered to be in its most promising stage. A University of Pittsburgh researcher said in June 2001, "Given the sheer number and variety of bacteriophages lurking on the planet, the viruses may represent a sizable untapped reservoir of new therapeutics." Science 292 (June 2001) p. 2326-2329.

Possibilities for use of bacteriophages in disease control is discussed in the article "Smaller Fleas... Ad infinitum: Therapeutic Bacteriophage Redux" in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America [PNAS] Vol. 93 No. 8 (April 16, 1996), 3167-8. http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/tocrender.fcgi?iid=1253

The fact that the fly carried pathophagic or germ-eating agents was known to the ancients, who noticed that wasp and scorpion stings are remedied by rubbing the sore spot with a decapitated fly as mentioned in al-Antaki's Tadhkira (1:140), al-`Ayni's citation of Abu Muhammad Ibn al-Baytar al-Maliqi's (d. 646) al-Jami` li-Mufradat al-Adwiya wal-Aghdhiya in `Umdat al-Qari (7:304), and al-Sha`rani's Mukhtasar al-Suwaydi fil-Tibb (p. 98).

Avicenna preferred the use of a live chicken slit in two and applied to the wound cf. Ibn al-Azraq, Tas-h?l al- Manafi` (1306 ed. p. 171=1315 ed. p. 147). A similar use is current even today for camel urine according to a University of Calgary website. http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/beginnings/camels.html.

In the two world wars the wounds of soldiers exposed to flies were observed to heal and scar faster than the wounds of unexposed soldiers. Even today, fly larvae, or maggots, are used medicinally to clean up festering wounds. They only eat dead tissue and leave healthy tissue alone.

Is the fly ritually filthy (najis)? No. The Jurists concur that the fly is pure (al-dhubab tahir) and does not defile a liquid even if its quantity is small and even if it dies in it except, according to al-Shafi`i, if one of the aspects of the liquid is affected (smell, color, taste) cf. al-Baghawi, Sharh al-Sunna (11:260-261) and al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari (5:304-305).

The Prophetic Sunna is an endless manual of healthy living and practical husbandry for people of all walks of life, especially the poor. The Prophet, upon him peace, at all times directed his Umma to avert waste and penury even in unsanitary conditions. Just as the hadith on camel milk and urine reveals knowledge of dietetics and natural medicine, so does the hadith of the fly reveal knowledge of preventive medicine and immunology. In this respect the command in these hadiths, as in many others, denotes an advisory Sunna of permissibility, not a literal obligation. "The command [of immersing the fly] denotes counsel (al-amru lil-irshad) so as to counter disease with cure." Al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari (5:304).

Despite the abundance of supporting evidence for the authenticity of these medicinal narrations (camel and fly) on the one hand and for their scientific viability on the other, certain voices continue to reject them on both counts. Principle skepticism of authentically transmitted narrations that pertain to facts demonstrated by ancient and modern science, or whose scientific worth is just now coming into view, is the wont of stagnant minds and diseased hearts for which there is no cure save the mercy of our Lord.

Hajj Gibril
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Tay on April 11, 2004, 02:07:39 AM
Peace Frank,

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the info. I looked into the links referenced and didn't find anything concrete that stated a fly dipped in water/drink would release any type of antidote to transmitted bacteria.

Particularly disturbing was the paragraph...

"So then, flies are not only pathogenic carriers but also carry microbiota that can be beneficent. The fly microbiota were described as "longitudinal yeast cells living as parasites inside their bellies. These yeast cells, in order to perpetuate their life cycle, protrude through certain respiratory tubules of the fly. If the fly is dipped in a liquid, the cells burst into the fluid and the content of those cells is an antidote for the pathogens which the fly carries." Cf. Footnote in the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammad Muhsin Khan (7:372, Book 76 Medicine, Chapter 58, Hadith 5782).

These comments are highly presumptuous for what otherwise seems to be a scientific journal article. And there is no reference to where this footnote should point to.

Nevertheless, the argument presented for the existence of "pathogen-suppressing ability of the microbiota" of a housefly is strong. This is to be expected of any animal that makes it living working with bacteria. However, what's missing is the idea that a fly can pass along it's "pathogen-suppressing" ability to humans, simply by dipping it in tea.

I wouldn't try this at home.

Flies have been implicated in the spread of typhoid and cholera, particularly, and are known to carry over 100 different bacterial pathogens.

In short, I've been fooled by these websites in the past that claim to have "scientific proof" of the authenticity of hadith and the Qur'an. It seems many of these sites have their roots in Saudia, and the Saudi's are known to pump misinformation out there because they know we Muslims will spread the info like wildfire.

That's why I'm always skeptical of these proofs until I've read through all the links and references.

I'll do some more digging and see what comes up. If in fact dipping a fly in tea can release the bacteriophages that attack viruses and bacteria, it is surely a breakthrough in modern medicine, and one that would confirm the validity of this particular hadith.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 11, 2004, 02:24:54 AM
Dear Frank,


I am not looking forward to any scientific explanation how antidote can be extracted from certain flies; I am just interested to know about the practice according to the literal meaning of that hadith.

Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?


Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 11, 2004, 02:43:15 AM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"


You don't understand that at the time of the Holy Prophet, where the people used to live in middle of deserts and therefore, water (and food)was of shortage, people cannot just throw away their food or drink because it got contaminated with something.

Therefore, in those times.. even if a fly did land in your cup you had to drink it otherwise you wouldn't be getting anymore and will be  left thirsty or hungary. In those times, as the Hadith suggests, if a fly did land in your cup, dip it totally and throw the fly away.... since.. as the Holy Prophet (pbuh) states: one wing of fly contains certain bioligical particles that would result in giving disease to the person, while the other wing provides the cure. You have not sientifically proven this to be false, so don't be so arrogant and that too for something you have no knowledge of and ALSO going against the words of God, since you are rejecting the words of the prophet (pbuh).. which too you have not PROVEN to be false.

You people are standing on dangerous grounds.  :shock:


Is this your assumption..? Is the source of above explanation from another hadith relating to the fly..?


Quote
To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).


So I think, from above statement of yours it is clear that you gonna follow this hadith because of your emotional blind love for prophet and not logic or scientific proof.

And I would assume that, you have chosen to depend on your blind faith to believe on the above hadith because scientifically and also according to health issues Its a bad practice to literally follow that hadith as its a great threat towards our health.

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: FRANK on April 11, 2004, 06:11:05 AM
it was asked:"
Quote
Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?

If a fly falls into my Glass of tea,I dont think there is any need to dip a fly in my cup , for I could  simply return to the refrigerator and pour another glass,or walk into the store and get another drink :wink:..
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: morningdew on April 11, 2004, 07:53:54 AM
Peace,

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Science/flies.html

Here is another site about this hadith.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 11, 2004, 09:57:14 AM
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?




You questions are same as one another, but worded differently. The answer to both of them is:

If I fly did fall in my cup (first of all, understand that this is a very rare event ;)), I would follow the Hadith, and then I would throw the drink away! :) :)


I have already stated again and again, the hadith that this hadith was practical in thse times when there was much poverty and lack of water. So it was very "expensive" to throw away a drink.

In cases where you can't throw away the drink, and you just had to drink the water, but a fly fell it, it would be wise to follow the Hadith and not just throw the fly out and drinkt he water, in which case, you will have a chance of being infected with some disease.

The real wisdom of the Hadith is that it taught us a scientific fact that flies have those characteristics as described by the Prophet (pbuh). These facts were need in those times more than they are needed now, where eveyrything is so "cheap". Also, obviously, there were no scientific means to find these facts out, and on top of that, in places of hot and humid enviroments, the population of flies is of large. Therefore, this Hadith provided the answer to those people regarding flies falling into their drinks.



Thanks Frank for the scientific info on this. :)


Quote
So I think, from above statement of yours it is clear that you gonna follow this hadith because of your emotional blind love for prophet and not logic or scientific proof.



It is not "blind".. I have love for the prophet using my own senses, mind, and awareness.



I have already stated in another post that a man named Uwais Qarni once heard that the prophet (pbuh)'s tooth was matyred in a battle. In sorrow of this, he broke one of his tooth, then he thought maybe it was a different tooth of the prophet that broke, and so he broke all his own teeth in this way. This is the kind of love that true followers and "lovers" of the prophet (pbuh) had. What are we compared to that? Nothing! :(

Why do you make statement for which you have no knowledge of??? How are you so sure that I am wrong??? Have you received some direct revelation from God??? What if it turned out that you were wrong on the Day of Judgment, what will you have in response?


"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)


Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)


Quote
And I would assume that, you have chosen to depend on your blind faith to believe on the above hadith because scientifically and also according to health issues Its a bad practice to literally follow that hadith as its a great threat towards our health.


And give me one reason why it is a bad practice.  :roll:
Can you prove it scientifically??? I am not talking about specualtions.. I am talking about actual tests where flies have fell in and people drank the drink and they were infected with diseases. Have you got some tests you have carried out? I would like to see the results.  :P
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 11, 2004, 02:38:26 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?




You questions are same as one another, but worded differently. The answer to both of them is:

If I fly did fall in my cup (first of all, understand that this is a very rare event ;)), I would follow the Hadith, and then I would throw the drink away! :) :)


The question was reffered to bro Frank...anyway thanks for your answer....I think you stand is quite clear by the below statement...

Quote
To be honest, if a fly DID fall in my cup, I WOULD FOLLOW THIS HADITH, just for the sake of following the prophet (pbuh), and hence for the sake of following Allah (swt), since obeying the prophet (pbuh) = obeying Allah (swt).


Quote
I have already stated again and again, the hadith that this hadith was practical in thse times when there was much poverty and lack of water. So it was very "expensive" to throw away a drink.

In cases where you can't throw away the drink, and you just had to drink the water, but a fly fell it, it would be wise to follow the Hadith and not just throw the fly out and drinkt he water, in which case, you will have a chance of being infected with some disease.


This is your own assumption...because the hadith is not pointing towards any situation such as less water or drink but its trying to make a statement on curing disease.

If such dipping the fly could have been a cure at that time than it can cure in this time also. But obviously such practice is a threat towards our health.


Quote
The real wisdom of the Hadith is that it taught us a scientific fact that flies have those characteristics as described by the Prophet (pbuh). These facts were need in those times more than they are needed now, where eveyrything is so "cheap". Also, obviously, there were no scientific means to find these facts out, and on top of that, in places of hot and humid enviroments, the population of flies is of large. Therefore, this Hadith provided the answer to those people regarding flies falling into their drinks.


Now you are trying to mishmash with your speculations to pull out some sort of wisdom from that hadith.!! aren?t you distorting the actual practice which you believe to be taught by prophet..!!!?? In no way the hadith is allegorical, its straight forward pin-pointing towards a practice which will actually cure disease....

It is a proven fact that fly spread diseases and thats why thousands of people die all around the world, mostly in the village area. Thats why there are so any programs in the TV and campaigns to make ppl aware about this situation and how we should try to prevent fly from infecting our health.

So bro Zed, if you really want to follow such practice for the sake of blind love towards Bukhary's book than it?s totally your choice. But as health cautious ppl we feel the need to make ppl aware of such health threatening practice.

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 11, 2004, 02:41:13 PM
Quote from: "FRANK"
it was asked:"
Quote
Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?

If a fly falls into my Glass of tea,I dont think there is any need to dip a fly in my cup , for I could  simply return to the refrigerator and pour another glass,or walk into the store and get another drink :wink:..



Thanks for your sincere answer.......

peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 11, 2004, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Quote from: "FRANK"
it was asked:"
Quote
Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?

If a fly falls into my Glass of tea,I dont think there is any need to dip a fly in my cup , for I could  simply return to the refrigerator and pour another glass,or walk into the store and get another drink :wink:..



Thanks for your sincere answer.......

peace





So a sincere answer based on person feelings is respected, and anything that shows love for the prophet in following him, and therefore in following Gods words (obey the prophet) is disrespected by the Quranists. I can see the biased and closed mindedness you people have. Keep it up. :)


LOL!!! Funny, how no one has ever heard of a death caused by a "fly" falling in the person's cup!!! LOL!!! :lol: Nice scientific proof. :lol:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 11, 2004, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Quote from: "FRANK"
it was asked:"
Quote
Simple Question

1) Do you practically follow the hadith as it is described..?

2) What should muslims do according to that hadith..?

If a fly falls into my Glass of tea,I dont think there is any need to dip a fly in my cup , for I could  simply return to the refrigerator and pour another glass,or walk into the store and get another drink :wink:..



Thanks for your sincere answer.......

peace





So a sincere answer based on person feelings is respected, and anything that shows love for the prophet in following him, and therefore in following Gods words (obey the prophet) is disrespected by the Quranists. I can see the biased and closed mindedness you people have. Keep it up. :)


LOL!!! Funny, how no one has ever heard of a death caused by a "fly" falling in the person's cup!!! LOL!!! :lol: Nice scientific proof. :lol:


you see, according to your view anyone can chop off another persons head and say that he/she has done it for the love of prophet and I hope your type of thinking will find it totally ok.

Loving with sincerity and becoming obsessed with blind love  is totally different. there are people who are obsessively in love with their ego, money, children, popularity, leaders or even themselves. this type of love are blind and makes one person incapable of thinking properly. These type of people becomes problematic in the society.

anyway, your sincere answer was also the same as Frank..but than suddenly you reverted to your blind love of prophet and religiously(psychologically) became forced to accept that hadith.

Well bro, its very hard to breakdown the retarded ideals which we are fed from childhood. Its hard to accept the truth as we are bombarded with falsehood from childhood. May be that?s why there is a reward for good deeds.

peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 11, 2004, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
you see, according to your view anyone can chop off another persons head and say that he/she has done it for the love of prophet and I hope your type of thinking will find it totally ok.


Why would anyone want to chop someone's head for the love of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Are you feeling ok??  :roll:


Quote
Loving with sincerity and becoming obsessed with blind love  is totally different.


I wish I was obsessed with love for the Prophet (pbuh). I wish because of my love people would call me mad, metal or someone who has lost his head. I wish I was a "deewana" or "Aashiq" of the Prophet (pbuh) (Aashiq-e-Rasool):

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)



Quote
there are people who are obsessively in love with their ego, money, children, popularity, leaders or even themselves. this type of love are blind and makes one person incapable of thinking properly. These type of people becomes problematic in the society.


Any obssessive love for a wordly thing or purpose more than the love of Allah (swt) and the Prophet (pbuh) and for striving in religion would be in vain and would result in disbelief. See quotes above.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Sara on April 11, 2004, 08:38:46 PM
LoL PrinceZ?D, you are desi, aren't you?
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: shamsul-arefin on April 11, 2004, 08:48:06 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
you see, according to your view anyone can chop off another persons head and say that he/she has done it for the love of prophet and I hope your type of thinking will find it totally ok.


Why would anyone want to chop someone's head for the love of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Are you feeling ok??  :roll:


thats something you have to ask those who do it.

Quote
Any obssessive love for a wordly thing or purpose more than the love of Allah (swt) and the Prophet (pbuh) and for striving in religion would be in vain and would result in disbelief. See quotes above.


Obsessive love for anything can make a person insane. Even if its love for prophet or God.

An insane person can go about anything such on God, prophet, Pir, gf, money or whatever but that doesn?t mean that he will be able to give reasonable decisions. So in a way, Obsession with anything is bad.

thanks for your time with this hadith....and I hope the discussion was enough for a person with sound mind to drag their own conclusion/understanding about it. But if anyone wish to continue more than you are welcome..:)

I will be posting another hadith for your explanation?

peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Incognito on April 12, 2004, 07:21:31 AM
Salaam PrinceZ?D

Quote
LOL!!! Funny, how no one has ever heard of a death caused by a "fly" falling in the person's cup!!! LOL!!!  Nice scientific proof.


Check out these website

http://www.watercan.com/pdf/technote13.pdf

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2000-11/ASfM-Fiav-0111100.php

http://www.aldeaglobal.com.ar/agua/wbd.htm

And please reassess your love for the prophet;

2.164: Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

2.166: When those who were followed will disown those who followed them, and they will see the retribution, and all excuses have abandoned them.

On the Day of Judgement Muhammed will disown you and the conjecture which you follow. :cry:

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: ayman on April 12, 2004, 01:06:05 PM
Peace on who followed the guidance,

The first question that comes into mind when one encounters lunatics promoting the medicinal benefits of dipping flies into food and drink is where would one even start in the face of such nonsense deceptively presented as science?

The famous fly Hadith that is attributed to the prophet is repeated many times in slightly different versions in the book of Bukhari, making it one of those highly reliable Hadiths according to the nonsensical science of Hadith. Hence, placing doubt in this Hadith will unavoidably place a shadow of doubt on ALL Hadiths. I hope that it is now clear why Ahl-al-Hadith will defend such falsehood at any cost. Here are two out of the many similar Hadiths:

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.537
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/071.sbt.html#007.071.673


The main contention of those who concocted those Hadiths is that "in one wing of the fly is the disease/venom and in the other wing is the cure/antidote".

By making such general statements about each of the wings of the fly, the Hadiths fabricators have once again inadvertently exposed the falsehood of their Hadiths and have embarrassed their sectarian Ahl-al-hadith cohorts. Likewise, both Frank and PrinceZED demonstrate that they are hopelessly unaware of common logical fallacies such as "hasty generalization" as they fail or deliberately ignore to address the main thesis of their Hadith:

"IN ONE WING OF THE FLY IS THE DISEASE/VENOM AND IN THE OTHER WING IS THE CURE/ANTIDOTE".

How hard can it be to pinpoint the "good wing"? Unlike many other insects, the housefly only has TWO wings. With even simple trial and error people could have pinpointed the "good wing" if such thing existed. Failure to pinpoint the "good wing" and the inevitable demise of some people who got sick or even died after heeding the advice given by the Hadith explains why some people might have come up with overstretched interpretation of the hadith.

On other forums where he personally posts his nonsense such as soc.religion.islam, I have exposed Frank's master, Hajj Jibril, as a fraud who on other occasions conjured up references to "scientifically" support nonsensical Hadiths such as those promoting the medicinal benefits of Camel Urine. Hence, I am not surprised that we see such nonsense from him:

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Dr. Ghyath Hasan al-Ahmad in his book al-Tibb al-Nabawi fi Daw' al-`Ilm al-Hadith ("Prophetic Medicine in the light of Modern Science") (1995 2:188-189) mentions that a Dr. Nab?h D?`ish ran an experiment at King `Abd al-`Aziz University in Ryadh in which he created ten bacterial cultures from samples of sterilized fluid into which a fly fell without being immersed; ten more bacterial cultures from samples into which a fly fell and was immersed once; ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed twice; and ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed three times. The results showed that bacterial colonies thrived in the first set but were stunted and depleted in the second, more so in the third, and most in the fourth set.


The above experiment only serves as a possible explanation to why despite having large amounts of funding King Abd al-Aziz University and all other universities in Saudi Arabia have a poor track record of scientific research and discovery. The reader has to remember that this is the same education and research system that appointed sheikh Bin-Baz as President of the University of Madina. This despite the fact that he promoted that the earth is flat (based on Hadiths) and issued a "fatwa" that whoever claims it is spherical is an atheist.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
It is established that house flies are carriers of dangerous pathogens of animals and humans. Even the muscaphobic critics of this hadith are forced to admit that no one at the time of the Prophet, upon him peace, knew that flies carry such harmful organisms. Whence the observation that "under one of its wings there is venom"?


I don't think that the author is giving the people at the time of the prophet enough credit. Surely, unlike those here who promote the "good fly wing" Hadith, even back then people would have been intelligent enough to know that flies prefer to hang around filth and that filth makes people sick. It must have also been observed that people who ate food that has been infested with flies became sick in some cases. So, even though people did not know what viruses and bacteria were, anybody would have known that flies carried some harm.

Here is another Hadith, which could only be used to prove that at the time of Al-Nisa'i people knew that dipping flies was harmful:

A sound-chained version in Ahmad, al-Tahawi, al-Nasa'i, and Ibn Majah (the latter two mention only the second half) states:

 <<Sa'id ibn Khalid said: I went in to see Abu Salama. He brought us some butter and date pastry. A fly fell into the dish. Abu Salama began to submerge it (yamquluhu) with his finger. I said, "Uncle! What are you doing?" He said: "Truly, Abu Sa`id al-Khudri told me that the Messenger of Allah said, 'In one of the fly's two wings there is poison and in another, its antidote. If it falls into food, submerge it in it; for it sends the poison first and keeps the cure last.'">> Al-Tahawi in Sharh Mushkil al-Ath?r (8:339 #3289) has, <<Uncle! Allah forgive you! What are you doing?>>


Again, if the above Hadith can be used to prove anything, it can only be used to prove that at the time of Al-Nasa'i the presently famous fly Hadith was not widely known as the voodoo science of Hadith claims and dipping a fly was seen as a disgusting and abhorrent act.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Second, from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.


There are many species that carry pathogens harmful to other species but harmless to their own. It has more to do with the virus or bacteria itself having a design capable of attacking specific systems in other species while incapable to attack the very different systems of the carrier specie. For example, a virus designed to attack the houseflies' digestive system will probably be totally harmless to humans because we have a different type of digestive system altogether NOT because humans carry the antidote to the fly's disease. Hence, from the perspective of logic, Hajj Jibril's arguments are simple minded and border on childish.

Moreover, the Hadith doesn't leave room for Hajj Jibril, Frank, or PrinceZED, or anyone here including myself to guess what form of protection the fly may carry. The Hadith unambiguously states that in one wing is the disease/venom and in the other wing is the cure/antidote, a clear falsehood by any measure.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Further, the transmission of what the fly carries in or on its body is not an automatic fact. For example, the microbe responsible for ulcers and other stomach ailments can live on houseflies, although it remains to be seen whether flies transmit the pathogen. http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/6_7_97/ref1.htm


The above reference, as well as the citation from Science magazine, has nothing to do with validating the statement "in one wing of the fly is the disease/venom and in the other wing is the cure/antidote". It seems to be cited merely for the "sciencenews" name in the URL to add an aura of credibility to an otherwise unscientific article. The same can be said for the following references:

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~insects/systems/digestion/plenuryrd.html
http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2000/Jul/hour1_072100.html
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/tocrender.fcgi?iid=1253


Surely, any rational person can see that all the other references such as those from the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari, al-Jami` li-Mufradat al-Adwiya wal-Aghdhiya, Mukhtasar al-Suwaydi fil-Tibb, etc. are devoid of scientific value and mostly rely on circular arguments.

The fact is that no matter what the Ahl-al-Hadith say, they cannot change the reality that the wing of the fly is NOT even the main culprit for transmitting disease. The main culprits are the legs that get contaminated by walking over manure and other materials containing infectious organisms. Flies excrete their fecal material wherever they come to rest and thereby mechanically transmit disease organisms without the need for any of their wings to even touch the surface. Because flies cannot eat solid food directly, they feed by regurgitating saliva on it. Hence, flies redeposit disease agents with each time that they defecate, feed or vomit. By comparison to the Sunni "al-dhubab tahir" even the cockroach is hygienic.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
The Prophetic Sunna is an endless manual of healthy living and practical husbandry for people of all walks of life, especially the poor. The Prophet, upon him peace, at all times directed his Umma to avert waste and penury even in unsanitary conditions.


Unless Bukhari is someone's prophet then the real "prophetic" sunna has no relation to the book of Bukhari and the like. The prophet, like all other prophets such as Ibrahim followed "sunnat Allah". There is never any mention of "sunnat-al-nabi" or "sunnat mohamed" in the quran. Of course, the Hadith doesn't mention anything about the conditions (sanitary, unsanitary, or otherwise) under which dipping the fly should be applied hence the author is taking the reader on another speculative trip.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Just as the hadith on camel milk and urine reveals knowledge of dietetics and natural medicine, so does the hadith of the fly reveal knowledge of preventive medicine and immunology. In this respect the command in these hadiths, as in many others, denotes an advisory Sunna of permissibility, not a literal obligation. "The command [of immersing the fly] denotes counsel (al-amru lil-irshad) so as to counter disease with cure." Al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari (5:304).


In his "camel urine" article Hajj Jibril relied on endorsing the fanatic Hindu Ayurveda fraud and on conjuring up references to support that weird Sunni fetish. Similarly, as we saw, his marketing of the "good fly wing" antidote is just as flimsy as that of the "camel urine" tonic.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Despite the abundance of supporting evidence for the authenticity of these medicinal narrations (camel and fly) on the one hand and for their scientific viability on the other, certain voices continue to reject them on both counts. Principle skepticism of authentically transmitted narrations that pertain to facts demonstrated by ancient and modern science, or whose scientific worth is just now coming into view, is the wont of stagnant minds and diseased hearts for which there is no cure save the mercy of our Lord.

Hajj Gibril


Despite the abundance of evidence refuting that in one wing of the fly is the disease and in the other the antidote, some people will continue to carelessly push the alleged medicinal uses of fly wings and work backwards to dig out any unscrupulous or unrelated sources to support their dogmatic view. This is as hypocritical as Ahl-al-hadith who dare to promote such falsehood yet most of them will not eat or feed their children food or drink where a fly has taken a dip and thus should see verse 26:226.

If they have children, I strongly advise Frank, PrinceZED, and all Sunni parents NOT to obey the Hadith and not to feed their helpless young babies, who are especially vulnerable in the face of disease, food or drink where a fly has taken a dip. If even one Sunni parent who would have bought Frank, PrinceZED, and Hajj Gibril's arguments heeds my advice and as a result one child is saved from disease or death, then all my writing on this forum and all other forums would have been worthwhile. As for those who promote this Hadith, if they don't repent and correct by denouncing this Hadith and one child dies as a result of their scam, I am certain that, like all of us, they will be held fully accountable on the day of the account. However, on that day their falsehood will not have any weight.

16:105. Indeed who fabricates the lies/falsehood are those who do not have faith in The God's verses/evidences, and those, they are the liars.

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman.
_________
22:41. Those who if We empowered them in the earth they upheld the learning connection/"salat" and brought the purification/betterment/"zakat", and ordered with the kindness and forbade disguised-obscenity, and to The God are the decisions/matters' end results.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Tay on April 12, 2004, 01:38:39 PM
Peace Ayman,

Excellent Post.

Quote
As for those who promote this Hadith, if they don't repent and correct by denouncing this Hadith and one child dies as a result of their scam, I am certain that, like all of us, they will be held fully accountable on the day of the account.


This is what amazes me. The Ahl-al-Hadith will most likely not be dining on marinated flies, nor will they feed it to their families, but they go right ahead prescribing it to the rest of the world, as if there is some glory in justifying this disgusting advice.

6:93 Who can be a greater wrongdoer than the one who fabricates a lie against Allah, or claims receiving Revelation while he has received none? Or someone who says, ?I, too, can bestow the like of what Allah has bestowed.? If only you could see such transgressors reach the pangs of death! The angels extend their hands to them saying, ?Bring out your egos. This day you will be awarded a punishment of disgrace for speaking lies concerning Allah, and being arrogant to His revelations.?

Thanks.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Jaxal on April 12, 2004, 02:59:58 PM
SaLaM...

PrincessZed gave the excuse that a poor man will have to waste his milk or water or whatever... so the hadeeths tell him that he dont have to do that.. he can simple dip the fly whole in the water or milk .. and drink it...

But.. what if a cockroach falls in? what if an eartworm falls in? or a beetle or a mosquito falls in? what then? the same poor man will HAVE to throw his milk or water.. or whatever.. tough luck for him eh?

In this age... water is available everywhere.. if something falls into the glass.. just throw it all out.. clean the glass with some anti bacterial soap.. and fill it again... simple!!
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 05:19:33 PM
Quote from: "Incognito"
Salaam PrinceZ?D

Quote
LOL!!! Funny, how no one has ever heard of a death caused by a "fly" falling in the person's cup!!! LOL!!!  Nice scientific proof.


Check out these website

http://www.watercan.com/pdf/technote13.pdf

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2000-11/ASfM-Fiav-0111100.php

http://www.aldeaglobal.com.ar/agua/wbd.htm


First, of all, let me get this straight to you.. no one disagrees with the fact that flies CAN transmit infections and diseases. Even the Hadith of the prophet states that one of the wing of the fly carries a disease.

However, we are looking at an ISOLATED case where a fly falls in your drink, what do you do in this case??? We are not looking at the big picture of "do flies carry infentions>". Of course they do.

We are looking at the scenario of what to do when a fly falls in your drink. In this case, see the scientific facts in the artivle posted by Frank to see what it shows.



Quote
And please reassess your love for the prophet;

2.164: Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

2.166: When those who were followed will disown those who followed them, and they will see the retribution, and all excuses have abandoned them.

On the Day of Judgement Muhammed will disown you and the conjecture which you follow. :cry:

Peace



LOL!!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


This is the habit f the so called "Qur'anists", they think they can associate ANY verse with ANYONE!!! :lol:

They label the verses that are revealed in reference to the unbelievers with those who believe in Allah (swt). !!!!! :lol: :lol:

This is the level of intellect they have!!! :lol: :lol:

As you can see CLEARLY, the message is going out to those "who have taken other gods besides Allah".. Now prove to me that I BELIEVE that Muhammad (pbuh) Is GOD. Please prove this to me if you but speak the truth.


I love prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the Sake of Allah (swt). and my Love for the prophet (pbuh) is GREATER than the love I have for Allah (swt) :)

This is a fact and you can't do anything to change it :)

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)


Please show me how following the words of God for loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) means that I don't believe in Allah (swt).  :?
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2004, 05:23:15 PM
Peace ZED

You said earlier that you would dip the fly in the drink and THEN throw the drink away. So I ask you, why dip the fly in the drink if you will not be drinking it? If the fly has the cure for the disease it carries on the other wing is there a problem you have with drinking your drink?

Joe
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 05:54:11 PM
Quote from: "TheNabi"
Peace ZED

You said earlier that you would dip the fly in the drink and THEN throw the drink away. So I ask you, why dip the fly in the drink if you will not be drinking it? If the fly has the cure for the disease it carries on the other wing is there a problem you have with drinking your drink?

Joe


LOL!! We are going in circles. I have already given a reply to this. Sorry, if I reply to that, then same questions and same answers will be given. If you really want an answer, read my replies in this thread above. Thanks. :)
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2004, 06:04:44 PM
Peace ZED

So dipping the fly in the drink to not drink the drink is beneficial to the fly?

Joe
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: "TheNabi"
Peace ZED

So dipping the fly in the drink to not drink the drink is beneficial to the fly?

Joe


It is beneficial to you. Read my replies above I said.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2004, 06:37:52 PM
Peace ZED

I read your replies. You were speaking of it being beneficial in a time when one had to drink their drink if a fly fell in it, so they would have to dip the fly in the drink. If it is of no benefit to you and you can simply get another drink why dip it ZED?

Joe

P.S. What if a fly landed in your food?
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: albion on April 12, 2004, 06:51:08 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
It is beneficial to you. Read my replies above I said.


I'm just wondering ZED, do you practice what you preach?.

I mean do you have a fly meals?
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 07:16:32 PM
Quote from: "TheNabi"
Peace ZED

I read your replies. You were speaking of it being beneficial in a time when one had to drink their drink if a fly fell in it, so they would have to dip the fly in the drink. If it is of no benefit to you and you can simply get another drink why dip it ZED?


Answer:

"Say (O Muhammad) : If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Holy Qur'an AaliImraan (3):31]


Do you think I comply with the verse???



Quote
P.S. What if a fly landed in your food?


It is difficult to transfer contamination from the fly to food. Liquid, as you know can easily "wash" off the contamination from the fly to itself.

I think you people are looking wayyy too much into this and going wayy too far just to invalidate it. But I'm afraid it's not going to work! :)
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: "albion"
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
It is beneficial to you. Read my replies above I said.


I'm just wondering ZED, do you practice what you preach?.

I mean do you have a fly meals?


Oh yeh, I love them  :roll:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2004, 07:39:33 PM
Peace ZED

Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Answer:

"Say (O Muhammad) : If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Holy Qur'an AaliImraan (3):31]


Do you think I comply with the verse???


In a crooked sort of way yes.  :)  You see I believe that verse is referring to following the messenger in following God (see 6:50). What is the duty of the messenger and what is the context of his work? Is it not God's message and deen? I believe this is what it is and thus because of my love for God I follow the messenger IN following God.  :wink:

If Muhammad as a man liked to dip flies in his drinks you can follow him and do such but this has no relevence to my success in the hereafter.  :wink:  Maybe you should go all the way and just BE Muhammad. Why don't you follow him in professing 'messengership' or follow him in saying that you are a 'prophet'?

Do you understand what follow the messenger is? Why can't it be following him in being a messenger and a prophet? Think about it.

Quote
It is difficult to transfer contamination from the fly to food. Liquid, as you know can easily "wash" off the contamination from the fly to itself.


I do not think it would be difficult to transer contamination, it just won't spread about like it would in liquid.  :wink: It'll just be sitting in that one spot. So maybe you can eat the fly to ensure the cure?

Quote
I think you people are looking wayyy too much into this and going wayy too far just to invalidate it. But I'm afraid it's not going to work!  :)


If the main point is dipping the fly in the drink what is the point of doing it if you do not need to drink it? In this day and age is this a necessary thing except for the poor? Where's your evidence that a fly has both a disease and cure in it's wings besides someone just saying that it is there?

Joe
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: vincentia on April 12, 2004, 08:50:34 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Oh yeh, I love them  :roll:


Maybe when you take your fly medicine you could dip your fly in a glass of camel urine. I hear thats good for you also
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 09:10:03 PM
Quote from: "vincentia"
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Oh yeh, I love them  :roll:


Maybe when you take your fly medicine you could dip your fly in a glass of camel urine. I hear thats good for you also


Looks like you are an expert on fly dishes cooked in some camel urine. Tell me, did it taste good when you tried it??
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Sara on April 12, 2004, 09:10:55 PM
You are disgusting.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 12, 2004, 09:15:54 PM
:lol:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Jaxal on April 12, 2004, 10:15:13 PM
SaLaM sara...

Quote
You are disgusting.


Its a sunni thing sara... he cant help it  :wink:
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Incognito on April 13, 2004, 05:34:15 AM
Peace

Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"



LOL!!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


This is the habit f the so called "Qur'anists", they think they can associate ANY verse with ANYONE!!! :lol:

They label the verses that are revealed in reference to the unbelievers with those who believe in Allah (swt). !!!!! :lol: :lol:

This is the level of intellect they have!!! :lol: :lol:

As you can see CLEARLY, the message is going out to those "who have taken other gods besides Allah".. Now prove to me that I BELIEVE that Muhammad (pbuh) Is GOD. Please prove this to me if you but speak the truth.


I love prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the Sake of Allah (swt). and my Love for the prophet (pbuh) is GREATER than the love I have for Allah (swt) :)

This is a fact and you can't do anything to change it :)

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)


Please show me how following the words of God for loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) means that I don't believe in Allah (swt).  :?


PrinceZ?D, you may laugh all you want, but if you had read the verse I highlighted (2.165), you can see that one of the characteristics of the people who take gods beside The God is that they love them with the same amount of love as they love The God. The believers are told to     "... love God more strongly".
You on the other hand take great pride in the fact that you love the messenger more than you love God.

I will repeat the verse one more time just so you can heed the verses of Allah and obey the messenger.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

Do you count yourself as among those who believe? If so then you should "Love God more strongly".

Quote
"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)


Please show me how following the words of God for loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) means that I don't believe in Allah (swt).  


I didn't say you didn't believe in Allah. I said that you equate the messenger Muhammed and God as being co-equal, by loving the messenger more than Allah. The verse you quoted 9.24 (Which is NOT 9.25 as you stated) doesn't say that we should love the messenger MORE than Allah. It says;
 
9.24: Say: ?If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your wives, and your clan, and money which you have gathered, and a trade which you would fear if it declines, and homes which you find pleasing; if these are dearer to you than God and His messenger and striving in the cause of God, then wait until God brings His decision. God does not guide the wicked people.?

We are not commanded to love just the messenger but also God and striving in the cause of God is supposed to be dearer to us than the things mentioned in 9.24. So I do not see how you can justify the extent of your love for the prophet from the Quran.

I know I've now gone off topic from what the original debate was, but I just wanted to make the above clear to you Z?D.

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 13, 2004, 10:55:46 AM
Quote from: "Incognito"
PrinceZ?D, you may laugh all you want, but if you had read the verse I highlighted (2.165),


I did read it. I read it again and again, and I still couldn't see what you were saying. Let's analyse again...


Quote
you can see that one of the characteristics of the people who take gods beside The God is that they love them with the same amount of love as they love The God. The believers are told to     "... love God more strongly".


Where does it say that this is a "characteristic" of those who take gods besides God?? (although it is true).. but don't try to bring in your own words here, since you are supposed to be a follower of the Qur'an and not some beliefs or your own or some scholar. So let's keep our own interpretations out of this.

The verse in question, as you quoted is:

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly... (part)

Therefore, Allah (swt) is saying that there are some people WHO TAKE OTHER TAN GOD AS EQUAL TO HIM. So already, your argument has been lost.. since no where did I say or believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is equal to God. So bye bye there. First establish that I take Muhammad (pbuh) equal to God, and THEN associate me with those who take others besides Allah (swt) as God and the love therefrom.


Quote
You on the other hand take great pride in the fact that you love the messenger more than you love God.


Yes I do. And I am proud to say that I have much love for the one who brought to me my religion, for the one who showed me the way to God, for the one who gave me Qur'an, gave me prayer, gave me Holy Ka'ba, and in fact gave me the whole of Islam!!! :)

Should I not love him the way that Allah (swt) has told us to love him:

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

"Say (O Muhammad) : If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Holy Qur'an AaliImraan (3):31]



Quote
I will repeat the verse one more time just so you can heed the verses of Allah and obey the messenger.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

Do you count yourself as among those who believe? If so then you should "Love God more strongly".


No need to repeat. I have already explained above. I will explain to you one more time though:

I DO count myself among those who believe. Therefore, I LOVE GOD MORE STRONGLY THAN THOSE WHO LOVE FALSE GODS BESIDES ALLAH (swt). Hope you get my point and the message of Allah (swt).


Quote
Quote
"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)


Please show me how following the words of God for loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) means that I don't believe in Allah (swt).  


I didn't say you didn't believe in Allah. I said that you equate the messenger Muhammed and God as being co-equal, by loving the messenger more than Allah. The verse you quoted 9.24 (Which is NOT 9.25 as you stated) doesn't say that we should love the messenger MORE than Allah. It says;


Please tell me how LOVING someone (especially loving Allah and the prophet MORE than anything in life) means that I have equated Allah and the prophet with each other!!  :roll:

Doesn't Allah (swt) show EUQALITY in love in these verse, for example:

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

"Say (O Muhammad) : If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Holy Qur'an AaliImraan (3):31]




Quote
9.24: Say: ?If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your wives, and your clan, and money which you have gathered, and a trade which you would fear if it declines, and homes which you find pleasing; if these are dearer to you than God and His messenger and striving in the cause of God, then wait until God brings His decision. God does not guide the wicked people.?

We are not commanded to love just the messenger but also God and striving in the cause of God is supposed to be dearer to us than the things mentioned in 9.24. So I do not see how you can justify the extent of your love for the prophet from the Quran.


Yes we are commanded to love God as well. And when did I say that I don't love God??? It's just the fact that you concentrate your love on God more often, and I concentrate my love in Muhammad (pbuh) more often.


Quote
I know I've now gone off topic from what the original debate was, but I just wanted to make the above clear to you Z?D.



Well, by making these statements, you  have just shown the level (or low level) of understanding and intellect that you possess.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Incognito on April 13, 2004, 02:03:58 PM
Salaam

Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"

Well, by making these statements, you  have just shown the level (or low level) of understanding and intellect that you possess.


Well if you're just going to insult me, is there any point of continuing?

Quote
but don't try to bring in your own words here, since you are supposed to be a follower of the Qur'an and not some beliefs or your own or some scholar. So let's keep our own interpretations out of this.


How did I add words to the verses? I will post 2.165 again and if you can't see what I getting at then there's no point in wasting both our time.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

Quote
Where does it say that this is a "characteristic" of those who take gods besides God?? (although it is true)..  


The bit underlined in the above verse does. Do not argue with God's words. A way to recognise the mushriks is by using the verse above, and not love anything MORE THAN GOD!  :wink:

Quote
since no where did I say or believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is equal to God.


Your right, you haven't said that Muhammed is equal to God. You said this

Quote
Let me re-itterate: I have more love in my heart for my maula Muhammad (pbuh) than Allah (swt).


You have put Muhammed above God. Have you even read the Quran?
"...but those who believe love God more strongly..." 2.165

Love God more strongly than what!? The believers do not worship any idols, or false gods. So what do the believers love God more strongly than? They love their Creator, their Maula, the Sustainer of the universe, MORE than anything and everything. They do not and cannot compare the creation of Allah to Him who created us all, and only to Him will we all have to answer to in the end! I hope you have the correct answers.  :wink:

I have other verses for you to look at, but I will not post them here at this minute and bog down this thread.

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 13, 2004, 02:21:35 PM
Quote from: "Incognito"

Quote from: "PrinceZ?d"
since no where did I say or believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is equal to God.


Your right, you haven't said that Muhammed is equal to God. You said this

Quote from: "PrinceZ?d"
Let me re-itterate: I have more love in my heart for my maula Muhammad (pbuh) than Allah (swt).


You have put Muhammed above God. Have you even read the Quran?
"...but those who believe love God more strongly..." 2.165



LOL!!! :lol:

exactly! Strongly than WHAT??? The reason is given in the verse itself, which you have chopped into pieces. Let's quote the verse again in full:

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

The verse mentions that there are some people in the world who take others as gods besides Allah (swt). And they love these false gods as they should love Allah (swt). The believers on the other hand love GOD MORE STRONGLY!!! The comparison is given between loving Allah (swt) and loving false gods.

I have love for Allah (swt) more than "Lord Jesus", more than "Lord Krishna", more than "Lord Rama" and more love than any other false god that people of the world worship. In fact, I don't even have any love for these "false gods" (in the case of Jesus, I love him as I love the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) i.e. as a prophet of God and not as a god). So you can't associate that verse with me mate. Sorry to say!! ;)
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Incognito on April 13, 2004, 02:40:22 PM
Peace brother Z?d,
Lol
Its like I'm talking to a brick wall!  :lol:

Quote
I have love for Allah (swt) more than "Lord Jesus", more than "Lord Krishna", more than "Lord Rama" and more love than any other false god that people of the world worship.


Yet you have more love for Muhammed. How strange?  :?  :?

We could exhaust this verse till Judgement day itself, we'll just keep going round in circles.

Peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: zenje on April 13, 2004, 03:07:47 PM
Quote from: "Incognito"
Its like I'm talking to a brick wall!
(http://www.upcomingdiscs.com/phpbb/images/smiles/brickwall.gif)
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Idris on April 13, 2004, 03:13:36 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Quote from: "Incognito"

Quote from: "PrinceZ?d"
since no where did I say or believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is equal to God.


Your right, you haven't said that Muhammed is equal to God. You said this

Quote from: "PrinceZ?d"
Let me re-itterate: I have more love in my heart for my maula Muhammad (pbuh) than Allah (swt).


You have put Muhammed above God. Have you even read the Quran?
"...but those who believe love God more strongly..." 2.165



LOL!!! :lol:

exactly! Strongly than WHAT??? The reason is given in the verse itself, which you have chopped into pieces. Let's quote the verse again in full:

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

The verse mentions that there are some people in the world who take others as gods besides Allah (swt). And they love these false gods as they should love Allah (swt). The believers on the other hand love GOD MORE STRONGLY!!! The comparison is given between loving Allah (swt) and loving false gods.

I have love for Allah (swt) more than "Lord Jesus", more than "Lord Krishna", more than "Lord Rama" and more love than any other false god that people of the world worship. In fact, I don't even have any love for these "false gods" (in the case of Jesus, I love him as I love the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) i.e. as a prophet of God and not as a god). So you can't associate that verse with me mate. Sorry to say!! ;)


Just because when someone does not call Muhammad a god or a son of God does not mean that person does not commit idolatry, someone sets up partners with God when that person devotes more or as much time, energy, love, etc. to something other then God, God tests our claims of believing that He is God alone by our actions, so when someone mentions Muhammad's name in prayers and loves him more then he/she does God it is a form of idol worship

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

plus where does it say "other gods"? it just says "other", it could mean anything (their cash, children, cars, houses, etc.) regardless of whether you call something a god or not if someone puts more or as much time and devotion into it then he/she does God then he/she is setting it up as a partner besides god

Who Is Your God?

Most people are outraged upon hearing this question. "What do you mean, `Who is your god?' they ask, `My god is the Creator of the heavens and the earth.' " And most of these people will be shocked to find out that their proclamation that their god is the Creator of the heavens and the earth is no more than lip service, and that they are in fact destined for Hell (12:106).

Your god is whoever or whatever occupies your mind most of the time.

Your god can be your children (7:190), your spouse (9:24), your business (18:35), or your ego (25:43).
This is why we note that one of the most important and most repeated commandments in the Quran is:

"O you who believe, you shall remember God frequently; glorify Him day and night.
" [33:41]
To put this commandment into practice, we must establish certain habits whereby we guarantee that God occupies our minds more than anything else. The Quran helps us establish such soul saving habits:

1. Commemorate God before eating: Verse 6:121 enjoins us to mention God's name before we eat: "You shall not eat from that upon which God's name has not been mentioned."

2. God Willing (IN SHAA ALLAH): "You shall not say, `I will do this or that tomorrow,' without saying, `God willing' (IN SHAA ALLAH). If you forget to do this, then apologize and say, `May my Lord guide me to do better next time.'" [18:24]. This is a direct commandment that we must carry out, no matter who we are talking with.

3. God's Gift (MAA SHAA ALLAH): To invoke God's protection for our beloved objects - our children, our cars, our homes, etc. - we are enjoined in 18:39 to say "MAA SHAA ALLAH" (This is God's gift).

4. Glorify God day and night: When we eat anything, we shouldn't be like animals; we must reflect on God's creation of the food we are eating - the flavor, our enjoyment due to the senses God has given us, the perfect packaging of the banana or the orange, the varieties of sea foods created by God, etc. - and glorify Him as we enjoy His provisions. When we see a beautiful flower, or animal, or sunsets, we must glorify God.
We must seize every possible opportunity to remember and glorify God, so that God may be our God.

5. First Utterance: Make it a habit to say: "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. There is no other god besides God," the moment you wake up every morning. If you establish this good habit,
this is what you will utter when you are resurrected.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Jaxal on April 13, 2004, 03:50:25 PM
SaLaM... im still looking for  hadeeth to explain this:

Quote
SaLaM...

PrincessZed gave the excuse that a poor man will have to waste his milk or water or whatever... so the hadeeths tell him that he dont have to do that.. he can simple dip the fly whole in the water or milk .. and drink it...

But.. what if a cockroach falls in? what if an eartworm falls in? or a beetle or a mosquito falls in? what then? the same poor man will HAVE to throw his milk or water.. or whatever.. tough luck for him eh?

In this age... water is available everywhere.. if something falls into the glass.. just throw it all out.. clean the glass with some anti bacterial soap.. and fill it again... simple!!


What happened? ur hadeeths running out?
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 13, 2004, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: "Incognito"
Yet you have more love for Muhammed. How strange?  :?  :?

We could exhaust this verse till Judgement day itself, we'll just keep going round in circles.


Why is that strange to you when my love for God is more than the false gods that people worship??? That is the only comparison given in the verse. Love for God versus love for FALSE GODS, and nothing else.

And why is it strange to you when Allah 9swt) HIMSELF has equate the love we should have for Him with the love we should have for the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and for the striving in his way:

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Therefore, if Allah (swt) allows us to EQUATE LOVE FOR HIM WITH THE HOLY PROPHET, then it cannot be wrong to love the Holy Prophet (pbuh) more than Allah (swt)!!!

If Allah (swt) HIMSELF loves the Holy Prophet (pbuh) so much as He shows throught the Holy Qur'an, then why can't we "follow" Allah (swt) in loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) more than anything else, for Allah's sake????

"Say (O Muhammad) : If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Holy Qur'an AaliImraan (3):31]
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: zenje on April 13, 2004, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
If Allah (swt) HIMSELF loves the Holy Prophet (pbuh) so much as He shows throught the Holy Qur'an, then why can't we "follow" Allah (swt) in loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) more than anything else, for Allah's sake????

"Say (O Muhammad) : If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Holy Qur'an AaliImraan (3):31]
:?
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: PrinceZ?D on April 13, 2004, 09:48:06 PM
Quote from: "Idris"
Just because when someone does not call Muhammad a god or a son of God does not mean that person does not commit idolatry,



LOL!!! :lol: Do you even KNOW what idolatry is??? :lol:


Quote
someone sets up partners with God when that person devotes more or as much time, energy, love, etc. to something other then God,



LOL!!! :lol:

Again, do you even know what you are talking about??? :lol:


When did I ever take time out to WORSHIP Muhammad (pbuh)??? I am talking about LOVE and following him the way Allah (swt) has commanded us.


Quote
God tests our claims of believing that He is God alone by our actions, so when someone mentions Muhammad's name in prayers and loves him more then he/she does God it is a form of idol worship



And which verse or Hadith of the prophet are you using to make such judgment???  :roll:  :roll:

Don't make up stories and assumptions and beliefs from your own desire instead of the Holy Qur'an mate.  :roll:

First of all, get one thing straight, idolatry is the worship of idols, which idol do I worship???  :roll:

Secondly, I am saying for the thousands time, I DO NOT WORSHIP Muhammad (pbuh). So isn't that enough for you to back off??? If you are trying to make me force to admit that I worship Muhammad (pbuh), it's not going to happen mate, so back off.


Quote
2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

plus where does it say "other gods"? it just says "other", it could mean anything (their cash, children, cars, houses, etc.) regardless of whether you call something a god or not if someone puts more or as much time and devotion into it then he/she does God then he/she is setting it up as a partner besides god


LOL!!! :lol:

I can't believe how simple your minds operate and you see everything the way you want to see it from your own perceived beliefs. You like taking words out of context don't you. Read the whole phrase, and then read the whole verse:

It says "take other than God as equals to Him". It means that people take OTHERS besides Allah (swt) AS EQUAL TO HIM.

And for the one thousand-and-oneth time, I do not worship Muhammad (pbuh) or make him equal to God.

Why can't I love him for what he is???? Why can't I love him and follow him the way Allah (swt) has commanded us. Why do you people have to show so much hate in your words for the Holy Prophet (pbuh)???  :(


Quote
Who Is Your God?


Allah (swt)

Quote
Most people are outraged upon hearing this question. "What do you mean, `Who is your god?' they ask, `My god is the Creator of the heavens and the earth.' " And most of these people will be shocked to find out that their proclamation that their god is the Creator of the heavens and the earth is no more than lip service, and that they are in fact destined for Hell (12:106).



You make me laugh with your bent interpretations: :lol:

Verse 12:106:

And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him! [Holy Qur'an 12:106]

How did you make all that interpretation from this verse???  :roll:
The verse is regarding those Polythiests who believe in ONE GOD, yet at the same time they ASSOCIATE PARTNERS WITH HIM. The example is what the Christians did with Jesus, they believe in One God (the Father) yet they also associate partners with God by believing that Jesus (pbuh) is also a god. This is the meaning of the verse. "Most of them" - is Christianity supposedly not the largest religion in the world??


Besdies, for the one-thousand-and-second time, I DO NOT ASSOCIATE PARTNERS with Allah (swt). Muhammad (pbuh) is the Creation of Allah (swt), the best and the first of Creations (see other thread for this discussion and proof). :)


Quote
Your god is whoever or whatever occupies your mind most of the time.


Bullshit!!!!

I can't believe that this is your concept of God!!! :lol:
That a persoon's God is that which is occupied in his mind most of the time!! :lol: :lol:

(Although I agree, that we SHOULD think about God all the time, howeverm the reverse is not true, thinking about something all the time does not make that thing a god to you automatically :lol:)



Quote
Your god can be your children (7:190), your spouse (9:24), your business (18:35), or your ego (25:43).



LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I can't believe that you believe think like this !!! :lol:

Mannnn.. I really feel sorry for you for the low level of knowledge and intellect you have :lol:


Verse 7:190 in context:

It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful." But when He giveth them a goodly child, they ascribe to others a share in the gift they have received: but Allah is exalted high above the partners they ascribe to Him. [Holy Qur'an 7:189-190]


So notice story.. A man and woman get married.. they pray to God alone to give them a good child, but when they are blessed with a good child, they begin to set up other gods besides Allah (swt). Allah (swt) is showing us that when we are in need of help, we worship Him, but when He gives us what we ask for, then we forget his favour and we begin to associate partners with him. Maybe this verse is again applying to the Christians.. certainly not the Muslims though since we worship one and only God, Allah (swt) and do not ascribe partners to Him.

No where is the verse referring to the child being set up as god!!! :lol:


Verse 9:24:

Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious. [Holy Qur'an 9:24]

Again, where doesit say that your "spouse can be god"??? The verse is giving us a clear picture that we should have love for Allah (swt), the Prophet (pbuh) and striving in His cause more than anything in life. Sorry dude! I failed to see the "your spouse can be god" bit!!!! :lol:

I have used this verse again and again to show you the importance of love for the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which you peole seem to have trouble with!!!!


Verse 18:35 in context:

Each of those gardens brought forth its produce, and failed not in the least therein: in the midst of them We caused a river to flow. (Abundant) was the produce this man had : he said to his companion, in the course of a mutual argument: "more wealth have I than you, and more honour and power in (my following of) men." He went into his garden in a state (of mind) unjust to his soul: He said, "I deem not that this will ever perish, "Nor do I deem that the Hour (of Judgment) will (ever) come: Even if I am brought back to my Lord, I shall surely find (there) something better in exchange." [Holy Qur'an 18:33-36]


Where does it say that people set up their "business as god"??? :lol: The message of the verses is that you cannot take this life for granted. This life is only temporary, we have to believe in the Day of Judgment. And this life will surely come to an end very soon.


Verse 25:43 in context:

When they see thee, they treat thee no otherwise than in mockery: "Is this the one whom Allah has sent as a messenger?" "He indeed would well-nigh have misled us from our gods, had it not been that we were constant to them!" - Soon will they know, when they see the Penalty, who it is that is most misled in Path! Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him? Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. [Holy Qur'an 25:41-44]


The meaning of the verse is that people follow their own desire and believe in false gods according to their lower desires. It is not saying that the lower desires are in fact gods to them. Don't be silly.. why would Allah 9swt) say such a thing when no one takes their "lower desires" as gods??  :roll:  However, it is true that out of desire, "lust" or impulse people are worshipping idols, Jesus, Rama, Krishna etc. This is the meaning of the verse. That the people are following their desires instead of using their logic and mind and reasoning into deciding what true God is.


So, in all the examples, you have been misinformed mate. Hope you have learnt something. ;)

Insha'Allah!



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This is why we note that one of the most important and most repeated commandments in the Quran is:

"O you who believe, you shall remember God frequently; glorify Him day and night. " [33:41]

To put this commandment into practice, we must establish certain habits whereby we guarantee that God occupies our minds more than anything else. The Quran helps us establish such soul saving habits:

1. Commemorate God before eating: Verse 6:121 enjoins us to mention God's name before we eat: "You shall not eat from that upon which God's name has not been mentioned."

2. God Willing (IN SHAA ALLAH): "You shall not say, `I will do this or that tomorrow,' without saying, `God willing' (IN SHAA ALLAH). If you forget to do this, then apologize and say, `May my Lord guide me to do better next time.'" [18:24]. This is a direct commandment that we must carry out, no matter who we are talking with.

3. God's Gift (MAA SHAA ALLAH): To invoke God's protection for our beloved objects - our children, our cars, our homes, etc. - we are enjoined in 18:39 to say "MAA SHAA ALLAH" (This is God's gift).

4. Glorify God day and night: When we eat anything, we shouldn't be like animals; we must reflect on God's creation of the food we are eating - the flavor, our enjoyment due to the senses God has given us, the perfect packaging of the banana or the orange, the varieties of sea foods created by God, etc. - and glorify Him as we enjoy His provisions. When we see a beautiful flower, or animal, or sunsets, we must glorify God.
We must seize every possible opportunity to remember and glorify God, so that God may be our God.

5. First Utterance: Make it a habit to say: "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. There is no other god besides God," the moment you wake up every morning. If you establish this good habit,
this is what you will utter when you are resurrected.


Agreed.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: hafeez kazi on April 14, 2004, 11:39:37 AM
Bukhari: 3:13 Jabir Bin Abdullah 3:683 ibn Abbas
The Prophet (along with his companions) reached Mecca in the morning of the fourth of Dhul-Hijja assuming Ihram for Hajj only. So when we arrived at Mecca, the Prophet ordered us to change our intentions of the Ihram for 'Umra and that we could finish our Ihram after performing the 'Umra and could go to our wives (for sexual intercourse). The people began talking about that. Jabir said surprisingly, "Shall we go to Mina while semen is dribbling from our male organs?" Jabir moved his hand while saying so. When this news reached the Prophet he delivered a sermon and said, "I have been informed that some peoples were saying so and so; By Allah I fear Allah more than you do, and am more obedient to Him than you. If I had known what I know now, I would not have brought the Hadi (sacrifice) with me and had the Hadi not been with me, I would have finished the Ihram." At that Suraqa bin Malik stood up and asked "O Allah's Apostle! Is this permission for us only or is it forever?" The Prophet replied, "It is forever." In the meantime 'Ali bin Abu Talib came from Yemen and was saying Labbaik for what the Prophet has intended. (According to another man, 'Ali was saying Labbaik for Hajj similar to Allah's Apostle's). The Prophet told him to keep on the Ihram and let him share the Hadi with him.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: hafeez kazi on April 14, 2004, 11:43:22 AM
Bukhari: 3:13 Jabir Bin Abdullah 3:683 ibn Abbas
The Prophet (along with his companions) reached Mecca in the morning of the fourth of Dhul-Hijja assuming Ihram for Hajj only. So when we arrived at Mecca, the Prophet ordered us to change our intentions of the Ihram for 'Umra and that we could finish our Ihram after performing the 'Umra and could go to our wives (for sexual intercourse). The people began talking about that. Jabir said surprisingly, "Shall we go to Mina while semen is dribbling from our male organs?" Jabir moved his hand while saying so. When this news reached the Prophet he delivered a sermon and said, "I have been informed that some peoples were saying so and so; By Allah I fear Allah more than you do, and am more obedient to Him than you. If I had known what I know now, I would not have brought the Hadi (sacrifice) with me and had the Hadi not been with me, I would have finished the Ihram." At that Suraqa bin Malik stood up and asked "O Allah's Apostle! Is this permission for us only or is it forever?" The Prophet replied, "It is forever." In the meantime 'Ali bin Abu Talib came from Yemen and was saying Labbaik for what the Prophet has intended. (According to another man, 'Ali was saying Labbaik for Hajj similar to Allah's Apostle's). The Prophet told him to keep on the Ihram and let him share the Hadi with him.
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Idris on April 14, 2004, 02:26:18 PM
peace,

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I can't believe how simple your minds operate and you see everything the way you want to see it from your own perceived beliefs. You like taking words out of context don't you.


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LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!      

I can't believe that you believe think like this !!!  

Mannnn.. I really feel sorry for you for the low level of knowledge and intellect you have  


do I really need to quote Qu'ranic verses showing the errors in your ettiquite? if I'm wrong I'm wrong, if I have a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of something then that's ok, I'll humbly admit if I'm wrong and just pray that God gives me better understanding next time

plus

noun form

Main Entry: 1wor?ship
Pronunciation: 'w&r-sh&p
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

verb form

Main Entry: 2worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship?ing or -ship?ping
transitive senses
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
intransitive senses : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship

Idol worship of something is not just calling it a god, giving prayers to it, making statues of it, etc. it can also mean giving equal or greater devotion to, respect to, or honor to something other then God

I'm not insisting that you worship Muhammad either :wink:  

peace
Title: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
Post by: Jaxal on April 14, 2004, 03:22:53 PM
SaLaM Idris...

Bro... havent u figured it out yet? PrincessZed is just a typical sunni.. he cant face the facts that what he is following is wrong... u see.. he dont answer all post.. becoz he knows that he cant answer them.. his hadeeths run away from those posts.. LOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL... so bro.. his example is of that person on whome God has set his seal, blinded him, and take away his hearing... The most beautiful God talks about ppl like him.. and that makes me so happy in my heart  :D