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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: alifaiz on May 12, 2008, 03:26:57 PM

Title: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: alifaiz on May 12, 2008, 03:26:57 PM
Ive read the koran a few times and i am convinced it is from god. I strongly agree with the practice of following islam through the koran only. However i question my faith sometimes only because of early islamic history recorded in hadiths.

Such as muhammad's(pbuh) marriage to aisha at 6 and consummation of their marriage when she was only 9 and he was in his 50's.

The conquests of surrounding nations by caliphs and companions of the prophets who clearly showed first aggression which is supposedly suppose to be forbidden in islamic teachings. the conquests of these nations is in history. Is this really what muhammad(pbuh) taught? Did he also conquer the arabian peninsula against koranic teachings or were each of his battles in self-defence?

Help strenghten my faith by providing evidence if u can. Jazakallah Khair
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: IronSky on May 12, 2008, 03:45:24 PM
Peace to all,

Welcome Alifaiz,  you answered your own concerns,  the Quran is from God , not Mohammad, so even though he relayed Gods message to us, he was still only human as were his early followers, so any transgression they committed was there fault and they answered for it to God,  dont confuse the message from the messenger.

Kurt
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: dc2 on May 12, 2008, 06:21:38 PM
here (http://realdeen.wordpress.com/2006/07/30/real-age-of-hazrat-aisha/) is a rebuttal to the aisha being 9 legend. its a clever clear and concise series of points. i often link to it when i am challanged over the issue on various websites. though i am guilty of never thanking the author. below is a small selection of his points.


Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Wakas on May 13, 2008, 05:51:53 AM
I believe there are many articles along the lines of exposing the "was Islam spread by the sword" myth etc, feel free to google it.

Secondly, if you believe the Koran to be the Word of God or feel that following "Koran only" is the right way to go, then why does corrupted, contradictory, politically influenced, sectarian traditional narrations/hadith bother you? They hold no weight here.

Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Nadeem on May 13, 2008, 06:13:20 AM
Peace,

According to Hans K?ng, the militant muslims didn't want non-muslims to convert. For them it was simple: "The more non-muslims, the more tax.".

Nadeem
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: simple on May 13, 2008, 07:40:14 AM
Peace,

According to Hans K?ng, the militant muslims didn't want non-muslims to convert. For them it was simple: "The more non-muslims, the more tax.".

Nadeem

Hey Nadeem where there ever muslims and non muslims or simply the goodies and the baddies? during those times?

Salaams.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Nadeem on May 13, 2008, 08:02:14 AM
Peace simple,

You need to explain that question a bit. Thanks

Nadeem
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: simple on May 13, 2008, 09:50:00 AM
Peace simple,

You need to explain that question a bit. Thanks

Nadeem

Hi Nadeem,

i thought you was one of those guy's who didn't believe muslim was a name but a description. So no conversion would be involved in that case- but a readiness to comply with everything good.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Aisha's age
Post by: Edip Yuksel on May 13, 2008, 01:47:31 PM
Such as muhammad's(pbuh) marriage to aisha at 6 and consummation of their marriage when she was only 9 and he was in his 50's. Help strenghten my faith by providing evidence if u can. Jazakallah Khair

This is another lie by the enemies of God and His messenger. They tried to create a moon-splitting, tree-moving, child-crippling superman with the sexual power of 30 males (Verse 24:11-12 with its non-specific language, prophetically addresses this lie too). Muhammad was an honorable person and would not have a sexual relationship with a child (68:4; see 4:5-6). Discrepancies in the historical account show a deliberate attempt to reduce Aisha's age. This lie is perhaps produced to justify the sexual excesses of kings and the wealthy. They tried to justify their violence, oppression, injustice, sexual transgressions, and many other crimes through the fabrication and promotion of hadith.

Here is one of the articles by a Sunni analizing the hearsay stories:

Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
The Ancient Myth Exposed


by T.O. Shanavas

A Christian friend asked me once, ?Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?? I kept my silence. He continued, ?If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?? I told him, ?I don?t have an answer to your question at this time.? My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet?s marriage with Ayesha.

However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.

The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.

In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.

So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha?s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ?Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu?l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: ?He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq? (Tehzi?bu?l-tehzi?b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala?ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: ?I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq? (Tehzi?b u?l-tehzi?b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala?ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).

Mizanu?l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: ?When he was old, Hisham?s memory suffered quite badly? (Mizanu?l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu?l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).

CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham?s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha?s marriage and age are unreliable.

CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

?   pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
?   610 CE: First revelation
?   610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
?   613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
?   615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
?   616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
?   620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
?   622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
?   623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet

EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ?Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: ?All four of his [Abu Bakr?s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period? (Tarikhu?l-umam wa?l-mamlu?k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara?l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha?s age.

EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

According to Ibn Hajar, ?Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha? (Al-isabah fi tamyizi?l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu?l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

If Ibn Hajar?s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha?s age at marriage would be 12 years.

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha?s Age in relation to Asma?s Age

According to Abda?l-Rahman ibn abi zanna?d: ?Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la?ma?l-nubala?, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu?assasatu?l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

According to Ibn Kathir: ?She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years? (Al-Bidayah wa?l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Kathir: ?She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.? (Al-Bidayah wa?l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: ?She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.? (Taqribu?l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi?l-nisa?, al-harfu?l-alif, Lucknow).

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda?l-Rahman ibn abi zanna?d, Ayesha?s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha?s age.

EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha?s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu?l-jihad wa?l-siyar, Bab karahiyati?l-isti`anah fi?l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: ?when we reached Shajarah?. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha?s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu?l-jihad wa?l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi?l-nisa? wa qitalihinna ma`a?lrijal): ?Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].? Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu?l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati?l-khandaq wa hiya?l-ahza?b): ?Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.?

Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

CONCLUSION: Ayesha?s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha?s age.

EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: ?I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)? when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu?l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa?l-sa`atu adha? wa amarr).

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane?s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.

EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet?s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: ?You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)?. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha?s name.

All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word ?virgin? in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a ?lady? (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is ?adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.? Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

EVIDENCE #8. The Qur?anic Text

All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha?s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran?s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: ?And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...? (Quran, 4:5-6).

In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity ?until the age of marriage? before entrusting them with management of finances.

Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.

Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, ?How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?? The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?

AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.

CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.

SUMMARY:

It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha?s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha?s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha?s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.

T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.

? 2001 Minaret


Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Ghazal on May 13, 2008, 03:42:23 PM
Hi
I am new to this site.I thank you Edip for this article refuting a wrong concept.
I have also heard about the objection concerning number of wives of the prophet? Do you have any refuation about it also ?
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: dc2 on May 13, 2008, 05:31:06 PM
thanks for the post edip. great article.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Bubbles on May 14, 2008, 07:26:04 AM
Hi
I am new to this site.I thank you Edip for this article refuting a wrong concept.
I have also heard about the objection concerning number of wives of the prophet? Do you have any refuation about it also ?
Historical sources attest that the Prophet had a number of wives and I don't see that as something objectionable. Most of the women that he married were widows or women that were divorced and they married him of their own free will.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Ghazal on May 14, 2008, 08:40:14 AM
Historical sources attest that the Prophet had a number of wives and I don't see that as something objectionable. Most of the women that he married were widows or women that were divorced and they married him of their own free will.
He could not go against God's order which is narrated in the Quran.It shows that he might be having only one wife.History is all rubbish.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Nun de plume on May 14, 2008, 09:13:59 AM
He could not go against God's order which is narrated in the Quran.It shows that he might be having only one wife.

33:28 You, you the prophet, say to your wives: "If you were (F) wanting (F) the life the present/worldly life and its decoration/beauty, so come, I make you (F) enjoy, I divorce/free you (F), divorce/freeing gracefully (peaceful/quiet)."

33:30 You, the prophet's women (wives), who does/commits from you (F) with an evident enormous/atrocious deed , the torture be doubled/multiplied for her two doubles, and that was/is on God easy/little.

33:32 You, the prophet's women (wives), you are not as anyone from the women, if you feared and obeyed so do not soften/submit/obey with the word/opinion and belief, so wishes/desires who in his heart/mind (is) sickness/disease, and say (F) a kind/generous word/opinion and belief.

33:59 You, you the prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they (F) near (lengthen) on them from their shirts/gowns/wide dresses, that (is) nearer that (E) they (F) be known (better than being identified), so they (F) do not be harmed mildly/harmed, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Bubbles on May 14, 2008, 10:18:22 AM
He could not go against God's order which is narrated in the Quran.It shows that he might be having only one wife. History is all rubbish.
:giveup:
Title: Re: Aisha's Age
Post by: Edip Yuksel on May 14, 2008, 10:40:26 AM
Quote
Here is one of the articles by a Sunni analizing the hearsay stories:

I made an assumption based on where the article was published (Minaret magazine), but yesterday I decided to contact the author of the article on Aisha's age, to my surprize I learned that he rejects hadiths like we do.

Peace,
Edip
Title: Re: Aisha's Age
Post by: Andya Primanda on May 15, 2008, 12:09:42 AM
I made an assumption based on where the article was published (Minaret magazine), but yesterday I decided to contact the author of the article on Aisha's age, to my surprize I learned that he rejects hadiths like we do.

Peace,
Edip

He's Mr. T.O. Shanavas, isn't he...

Please ask him to join us in this forum, bro Edip!
Title: Re: Aisha's Age
Post by: farida on May 15, 2008, 07:15:41 AM
I made an assumption based on where the article was published (Minaret magazine), but yesterday I decided to contact the author of the article on Aisha's age, to my surprize I learned that he rejects hadiths like we do.

Peace,
Edip

Salaam
I read this article few years back maybe it was by the same author, I did pasted it ( I think) on this forum but there wasn't much interest shown. I am glad this subject is discussed and you can also read counter arguments on this website below.
 :peace:

What was Ayesha?s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?

What was Ayesha?s (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply1

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
 

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards   

The Learner                                                                                                       Read Next Comment




http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm




Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Ghazal on May 15, 2008, 07:25:59 AM
We should beleive that the prophet never married more than one wife.This is Quranic principle.Please do not quote fabricated material .You know all this history stuff is full of lies.
Thanks
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: alifaiz on May 15, 2008, 10:46:53 PM
Firstly i would like to thank everyone that has shown me how unreliable and conflicting the hadiths regarding aisha's age are. But i have yet to find convincing evidence that muhammad(pbuh) and the first caliphs fought only defensive wars. Below are some instances of the caliphs who were guaranteed paradise by muhammad(pbuh) being quite brutal. 


"The Rightly Guided Caliphs" by Dr. Abu Zayd Shalabi

Dr. Abu Zayd Shalabi discusses the Islamic wars which were initiated by the four caliphs who succeeded Muhammad and who, at the same time, are his favored relatives. These caliphs are: Abu Bakr, ?Umar, ?Uthman and ?Ali. Muhammad married ?Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, and Hafesa, daughter of ?Umar. ?Uthman married Ruqayya, the daughter of Muhammad, then after her death, he married her sister Um Kalthum. ?Ali was married to Muhammad?s youngest daughter, Fatima al-Zahra.

On pages 35-38, Dr. Abu Zayd remarks,

"Muhammad had prepared an army to invade the borders of Syria. When Muhammad died Abu Bakr sent an army headed by Usama Ibn Zayd and ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab. The army marched towards southern Palestine and invaded some parts of the land, frightened the people and captured some booty."

At the beginning of page 70, Dr. Abu Zayd talks about the Islamic conquests and indicates that at the inception of the year 12 of Hajira, Abu Bakr ordered Khalid Ibn al-Walid to invade Persian lands and to seize the ports near Iraq. Khalid marched with the army, but before he started the war, he sent his famous message to Hermez, one of the Iraqi generals, "Embrace Islam, or pay the poll-tax, or fight." The Hermez declined to accept any of these terms but war. The Persians were defeated in this battle and Khalid seized the booty and sent Abu Bakr one-fifth of the spoils of war, exactly as they were accustomed to send to Muhammad. One-fifth of the booty belonged to God and to Muhammad.

Abu Bakr presented Khalid with the Hermez?s tiara which was inlaid with gems. Dr. Abu Zayd says the value of the gems amounted to 100,000 dirham (p. 73). After that, the successful, savage invasions continued against other countries which could not repel the forces of Islam. This Azhar scholar tells us that in the battle of Alees which took place on the border of Iraq, Khalid killed 70,000 people! He was so brutal in his attack that the nearby river was mixed with their blood (p. 75).

On p. 77, Dr. Abu Zayd mentions another country which surrendered to Khalid. Khalid demanded that they pay 190,000 dirhams. When he attacked Ayn al-Tamr in Iraq, its people took shelter in one of the fortresses. Khalid laid siege to the fortress and forced them to come out. He killed all of them mercilessly. They had done nothing against him or against the Muslims except that they refused to embrace Islam and to recognize Muhammad as an apostle of God. The Muslims seized all that they found in the fortress along with forty young men who were studying the Gospel. Khalid captured them and divided them among the Muslims (refer to p. 81).

It is well-known that Khalid Ibn al-Walid was a very brutal, vicious man. His relentlessness made ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab ask Abu Bakr to kill him or at least to depose him because he killed another Muslim in order to marry his wife! Abu Bakr did not listen, but when ?Umar became the second caliph, he deposed him immediately This was ?Umar?s opinion about Khalid. Yet, to Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, Khalid was one of the best among his relatives and warriors.

On page 134, Abu Zayd relates that when Khalid besieged another town called Qinnasrin which belonged to the Byzantine Empire, its people were so afraid that they hid themselves from him. He sent them a message in which he said: "Even if you hide in the cloud, God will lift us up to you or He will lower you down to us." They asked for a peace treaty, but he refused and killed them all. Then he eradicated the town. These are the words of Dr. Abu Zayd which we faithfully relay to you.

Dr. Abu Zayd continues to list the names of the towns and the regions which the Islamic army invaded after the fall of ?Ain al-Tamr. He says:

"By the end of the year 12, Hajira Abu Bakr became interested in Syria (Al Sham). He issued orders to four of his great generals and designated for each one of them a country which he was given to invade. He assigned Damascus to Yazid, Jordan to Sharhabil, Homs to Abu ?Ubayda and Palestine to ?Umru Ibn al-?As.

We wonder: Are these wars defensive wars or are they definitely offensive wars and unjustified military invasions? Abu Bakr?s era ends during the famous battle of Yarmick in which tens of thousands were slain for no reason except to impose religion by force, capturing women and plundering the properties. Muslims claim that Abu Bakr died from eating poisoned food a few months before.

When ?Umar was elected to the Caliphate, he deposed Khalid Ibn al-Walid and replaced him immediately with Abu ?Ubayda.

 

The Caliphate (ruling period) of ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab

The Invasion of Persia 

?Umar Ibn al-Khattab sent Sa?d Ibn Abi Waqqas to invade Persia. He camped in al-Qaddisia near the river Euphrates. Dr. Abu Zayd narrates for us a very important incident (pages 117-118) which we would like to examine. The author says:

"Sa?d sent some of his followers (among them the Mu?man Ibn Maqrin to Yazdagird, one of the Persian generals) who asked him, ?What enticed you and brought you to invade us?? (Ibn Maqrin) said to him, ?Choose for yourself either Islam or the poll-tax or the sword.? The Persian general became very angry and said to him, ?Had it not been (the custom that messengers should not be killed), I would have killed you. Go; you have nothing to do with me."?

Ibn Khaldun confirms this incident in the end of the second volume of his famous history book (pages 94-96). He says,

"Rustan, the Persian general, said to one of Sa?d?s messengers, ?You were poor and we used to provide you with plenty of food. Why do you invade us now?"?

It was obvious that the Persians had never thought to invade the Arabs, but they used to send them plenty of food because of the poverty of the Arab peninsula. Never-the-less, the Arabs seized the opportunity to invade Persia after they realized that the Persians had been weakened by its wars with the Byzantine Empire and their own internal problems. Thus, they repaid compassion with wickedness and goodness with evil. The question which the Persian general Sa?d asked was a logical one, "Why do you attack us? Did we mistreat you?" The answer was also very clear, "You have three options!" Dr. Abu Zayd says on in p. 123:

"Sa?d seized (after the battle of Qadisiyya) all that was in the treasury of Khusro of money and treasure. It was so plentiful that each Arab horseman received 12,000 dirham."

The Invasion of Damascus

On pages 131 and 132 of the same book, "The Rightly Guided Caliphs," the author indicates,

"Abu ?Ubayda marched towards Damascus and besieged it for seventy nights. He cut off all supplies while its inhabitants were pleading for help and assistance. Then Khalid attacked the city and massacred thousands of people. (They were forced) to ask for a peace treaty. Abu ?Ubayda turned over the rule of Damascus to Yazid and ordered him to invade the neighboring (cities). He attacked Sidon, Beirut, and others."

The Attack on Jerusalem

On pages 136 and 137, we read about the attack of ?Umru Ibn al-?as on Jerusalem. He besieged it for four months. Then its Christian inhabitants agreed to pay the poll-tax and to surrender to ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the caliph. ?Umar made the trip to Jerusalem and laid the foundation of the mosque. With that, the conquest of Syria was accomplished, but as the pestilence (plague) raged, many of the high-ranking generals of the Islamic army died, among them Abu Ubayda, Yazid and Sharahbil.

The Invasion of Wealthy Egypt

On pages 141 and 142, the author narrates how the invasion and occupation of Egypt were accomplished. Among the justifications which ?Umru Ibn al-?As presented to ?Umar which convinced him to allow ?Umru to attack Egypt were the following:

"Egypt?s abundance and yields are plentiful. The conquest of Egypt would gain for the Muslims a foothold in Syria and make it easier for them to invade Africa to spread Islam."

It is important to mark ?Umru?s statement that "Egypt?s abundance and yields are plentiful." Eventually Egypt and Africa were both conquered.

On pages 145 and 146, the professor of civilization at the Azhar relates how ?Umru besieged the Fortress of Babylon (south of ancient Egypt) for a full month, and that he said to the messengers of the Muqawqis, the governor of Egypt,

"There is nothing between us and you except three things:

(1) Embrace Islam, become our brethren and you will have what we have and you will be subjected to what we are subjected (in this case they would pay alms to the treasury of the state).

(2) If you refuse that, you are obligated to pay tribute with humiliation.

(3) War.

"The Muqawqis attempted to offer them something different, but they rejected it. At last, after a fight, he accepted the second condition, namely to pay tribute and to be subjugated to Islamic rule. The Muslims entered Egypt. "

 On page 147 and 148 Abu Zayd describes the conquest of Alexandria and denies that the Muslims burned the famous library of Alexandria. Yet he admits that many chroniclers have mentioned that ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab ordered ?Umru to burn it entirely.

[ Web editor's note: Abu Zayd is right in this. This story is a false rumor. See this page. ]
After the conquest and the occupation of Egypt, the author says (page 151) that ?Umru wanted to secure this conquest from the west by conquering Tripoli of Libya, and from the south by seizing Ethiopia. Thus at the close of the year 21 H. as Ibn Khaldun and Yaqut al-Kindi remarked (that is in the first half of the year 643 A.D. as Ibn al Athir and other chroniclers said), "?Umru marched on with his horsemen towards Tripoli."

On page 153 he adds:

"?Umru besieged Tripoli for a month. It was a well-fortified city. At last a group of Muslims infiltrated the city and fought some of the Byzantines who soon fled. ?Umar entered the city and captured all that was in it, then he assailed the city of Sabra without warning and conquered it by force. He seized all that could be seized from it. Then he sent his army to Ethiopia, but he failed to enter it and suffered great losses. The skirmishes continued until a peace treaty was signed during the time of ?Uthman Ibn ?Affan."

 Are these wars considered defensive? What is an offensive war then?


Are the hadiths that grossly DISTORTED!!?? These recollections had to have come from somewhere! History shows companions of the prophet whom were promised paradise conquering nations aggressively. How can one argue this? Ne evidence?

 

Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Nun de plume on May 16, 2008, 08:50:31 AM
Are these wars considered defensive? What is an offensive war then?

Are the hadiths that grossly DISTORTED!!?? These recollections had to have come from somewhere! History shows companions of the prophet whom were promised paradise conquering nations aggressively. How can one argue this? Ne evidence?

Is it possible to get a clear/honest perspective of the events in Iraq war only 5 years old with media coverage?

With that in mind ? how reliable is information/hearsay over a hundred years old from the FOX news of its day?
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: alifaiz on May 16, 2008, 12:46:15 PM
How did islam spread that fast then. I mean i agree that the concept of one all powerful god sending prophets is simple and very convincing but i dont see how people can abandon the religions of their fathers so easily. it is a hard thing to break especially for entire populations. i can see maybe conquest of these lands but not the forced conversion of the populace. That must have come slowly and they saw the beauty in islam. But still conquests are barbaric and un-islamic.
Can u show that all Muhammad(pbuh) fought defensively only? Also the the night raids he made against meccan caravans casualties had to include women and children. This was economic warfare.
So was bin ladens attack on world trade center which included women and children casualties.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Nun de plume on May 16, 2008, 03:00:50 PM
How did islam spread that fast then. I mean i agree that the concept of one all powerful god sending prophets is simple and very convincing but i dont see how people can abandon the religions of their fathers so easily. it is a hard thing to break especially for entire populations. i can see maybe conquest of these lands but not the forced conversion of the populace. That must have come slowly and they saw the beauty in islam. But still conquests are barbaric and un-islamic.
Can u show that all Muhammad(pbuh) fought defensively only? Also the the night raids he made against meccan caravans casualties had to include women and children. This was economic warfare.
So was bin ladens attack on world trade center which included women and children casualties.

One should not confuse the rise of empires (materialistic gains) with spread of religion.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf

Impossible to force a belief for it?s a conviction of the mind; as soon as the force is removed people will revert back to whatever thoughts pop in their heads and can even fake it during. Then you have most of the people meaninglessly wearing a label and clueless about their beliefs like walking zombies parroting whatever they heard.

Knowingly harming innocent non combatants (i.e. woman and kids) is a line no true Muslim can consciously cross without loosing their soul ? nothing can justify it, not even saving lives. Eventually all die, at a sudden moment or wither away to old age/nothingness and they?ll be questioned about actions which their own conscious will be a witness against them.


31:6-7 And from the people who buys the hadeeth amusement to misguide from God's way without knowledge, and takes it mockingly, those, for them (is) a humiliating torture. And if Our verses/evidences are read/recited on (to) him, he turned away arrogantly, as if he did not hear/listen (to) it, as if in his two ears (is) deafness/a heavy weight, so announce good news to him with a painful torture.

Peace
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: alifaiz on May 16, 2008, 09:59:06 PM
valid point. thanx and salaam
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Alen on May 19, 2008, 06:36:49 AM
Ive read the koran a few times and i am convinced it is from god. I strongly agree with the practice of following islam through the koran only. However i question my faith sometimes only because of early islamic history recorded in hadiths.
Such as muhammad's(pbuh) marriage to aisha at 6 and consummation of their marriage when she was only 9 and he was in his 50's.
The conquests of surrounding nations by caliphs and companions of the prophets who clearly showed first aggression which is supposedly suppose to be forbidden in islamic teachings. the conquests of these nations is in history. Is this really what muhammad(pbuh) taught? Did he also conquer the arabian peninsula against koranic teachings or were each of his battles in self-defence?
Help strenghten my faith by providing evidence if u can. Jazakallah Khair

Peace.
Respectfully.

No prophet of The Most Powerful God would ever marry a minor nor have sex with a minor.
Prophet Muhammad had wives.
God does not tell us their names in the Quran nor their age.
Why?
1. It is not our business.
2. It is not about glorifying God.
3. Knowing prophet's wives by name does not help you entering Paradise, doing good deeds, does.

God bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: nsws1988 on April 27, 2009, 09:29:16 AM
Does Islam allow a man to beat up his wife?
Does Islam allow marrying 4 wives just for the man's own satisfaction?

The reason why most muslims don't challenge the authenticity of these claims is because they trust the sources.
Its an excuse for sex hungry males who think they are doing a great deed by copying what the prophet 'did' and 'preached' through his hadeeths. If they did their research and found out the truth they would be very disappointed.

One example...
My dad knows a 'muslim' man who was 40-ish who married a young girl. Can't remember how old she was. Around 9. And he got her pregnant as soon as she hit puberty!

Even if Aisha was 9, I doubt they consummated their marriage so early. I mean would God give such an important job to someone who would do that?
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Bigmo on April 28, 2009, 12:05:39 PM
Does Islam allow a man to beat up his wife?
Does Islam allow marrying 4 wives just for the man's own satisfaction?

The reason why most muslims don't challenge the authenticity of these claims is because they trust the sources.
Its an excuse for sex hungry males who think they are doing a great deed by copying what the prophet 'did' and 'preached' through his hadeeths. If they did their research and found out the truth they would be very disappointed.

One example...
My dad knows a 'muslim' man who was 40-ish who married a young girl. Can't remember how old she was. Around 9. And he got her pregnant as soon as she hit puberty!

Even if Aisha was 9, I doubt they consummated their marriage so early. I mean would God give such an important job to someone who would do that?

Its similar to the Talmud. Where a person marry a baby girl but consumate the marriage later. It could be where this source came from. many Talmudic traditions originated from Babylon and the Talmud is notorious when it comes to pedophilia. Google it if you want.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: nsws1988 on April 28, 2009, 03:12:28 PM
Its similar to the Talmud. Where a person marry a baby girl but consumate the marriage later. It could be where this source came from. many Talmudic traditions originated from Babylon and the Talmud is notorious when it comes to pedophilia. Google it if you want.

Why would the Talmud be notorious when it comes to paedophilia if the marriage is consumated much later? You mean it has been taken out of context like with the Prophets marriage to Aisha (if she was really 9 years old)?
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: almarh0m on April 28, 2009, 04:05:06 PM
Peace

Perhaps if you search the Hadiths , either Bukhari or Muslim you'd find that : the prophet allegedly married Aisha when she was 7 years old and consumated the marriage when she was 9 . Common sense dictates that No man of God such as a prophet and messenger would commit such despicable and cruel act . This hadiths were clearly designed to vilify and denigrate the messenger .

almarh0m
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Diem on April 28, 2009, 08:56:00 PM
One should not confuse the rise of empires (materialistic gains) with spread of religion.

Agreed,

On a slightly different note,
I want to ask why the prophet had dozens of wives according to some accounts, and why he even married Aisha? The traditional answer (to build ties between warring factions) seems pretty BS considering that Abu Bakr is regarded as exteremely close to the prophet and that there were many other companions that could have been married to wo/men from other factions. Why only the prophet?
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Bigmo on April 28, 2009, 11:18:20 PM
Why would the Talmud be notorious when it comes to paedophilia if the marriage is consumated much later? You mean it has been taken out of context like with the Prophets marriage to Aisha (if she was really 9 years old)?

First of all the Koran does not dwell into the private lives of prophets. Its mainly concerned about their theological aspecat and the Koran relates the stroies of the prophet from a theological aspect. What their private lives was like is not a concern of the Koran. There is very little about Muhammad's life in the Koran or for that matter any other prophet

The Talmud footnotes 3 and 4 to Sanhedrin 55a clearly tell us when the rabbis considered a boy and girl sexually mature and thus ready for marriage. "At nine years a male attains sexual matureness? The sexual matureness of woman is reached at the age of three."

The Pharisees justified child rape by explaining that a boy of nine years was not a ?man? (See, "Judaism and Homosexuality: A Marriage Made in Hell") Thus they exempted him from God?s Mosaic Law: ?You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination? (Lev. 18:22) One passage in the Talmud gives permission for a woman who molested her young son to marry a high priest. It concludes, ?All agree that the connection of a boy aged nine years and a day is a real connection; whilst that of one less than eight years is not." 5 Because a boy under 9 is sexually immature, he can't "throw guilt" on the active offender, morally or legally. 6

A woman could molest a young boy without questions of morality even being raised: "?the intercourse of a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act." 7 The Talmud also says, "A male aged nine years and a day who cohabits with his deceased brother's wife acquires her (as wife)." 8 Clearly, the Talmud teaches that a woman is permitted to marry and have sex with a nine year old boy.

Sanhedrin 54b . A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

So there is this similarity about 9 year old.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Alen on April 29, 2009, 02:44:23 AM
Ive read the koran a few times and i am convinced it is from god. I strongly agree with the practice of following islam through the koran only. However i question my faith sometimes only because of early islamic history recorded in hadiths.
Such as muhammad's(pbuh) marriage to aisha at 6 and consummation of their marriage when she was only 9 and he was in his 50's.
The conquests of surrounding nations by caliphs and companions of the prophets who clearly showed first aggression which is supposedly suppose to be forbidden in islamic teachings. the conquests of these nations is in history. Is this really what muhammad(pbuh) taught? Did he also conquer the arabian peninsula against koranic teachings or were each of his battles in self-defence?
Help strenghten my faith by providing evidence if u can. Jazakallah Khair

Peace,
Respectfully.

First of all, Thank God Who has guided you.
Second, prophet Muhammad was not married to any minor, that is a fact.
Third, compare prophet Muhammad from The Quran with prophet Muhammad from the hadith books.

May The Exalted God bless you and give you more Strength in Islam.
Glory be to our God.
Peace.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Jafar on April 29, 2009, 12:56:03 PM
How did islam spread that fast then. I mean i agree that the concept of one all powerful god sending prophets is simple and very convincing but i dont see how people can abandon the religions of their fathers so easily. it is a hard thing to break especially for entire populations. i can see maybe conquest of these lands but not the forced conversion of the populace. That must have come slowly and they saw the beauty in islam. But still conquests are barbaric and un-islamic.
Can u show that all Muhammad(pbuh) fought defensively only? Also the the night raids he made against meccan caravans casualties had to include women and children. This was economic warfare.
So was bin ladens attack on world trade center which included women and children casualties.

Muhammad and his mates did the conquests to neighboring countries...
It was 'political' decision.. the aim was to 'make war with the oppressor till there are no more oppression'..
("Operation Middle East Freedom". :D)

"Justified War" is not only on "Self Defense"..
If there are ruthless / evil ruler oppressing a group of people (e.g. killing them through gas) , making war to topple that ruler and establish peace and justice can be considered "Justified War".

Back then "The Byzantine" and "Persian" is so ruthless and do a lot of 'forced conversion' on its people. (e.g. The byzantine oppressed the jews, unless they're converting to Christianity, they are subject for massacre..).

I myself doubt that Muhammad do a 'religion conversion', as 'Islam' back then was not a 'religion' as we know today..
Later on the 'movement' was evolved into a religion/sect, complete with its priestly class and forced dogma..

The evidence is so striking on today's "Islam" it is actually a 'mixed culture/faith' contains elements from Judaism, Christianity, Zoroaster and Arab/Kanaan Paganism..

And there are no 'night raids' on meccan caravans mentioned in the Quran..
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Diem on April 29, 2009, 04:20:55 PM
Interesting point to share. I was recently talking with some Sunni friends that were frustrated with Zul'Qarnain being confused as Alexander the Great by Christians. According to them, a conqueror/emperor/warrior king could not be a Muslim. Oh the irony.

I laughed.
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: almarh0m on April 29, 2009, 05:01:58 PM
Peace be upon you all

Muhammad was a just 'Revolutianary' like all other Great Revolutionaries of the bygone millenia such as Noah , Abraham , Moses and Isa ( Jesus ) et al . All and each of these individuals Transformed societies in their respected Eras . I never believed that these great leaders of men simply brought religions and certain rituals to be followed by their people . One does not get persecuted with such great hatred and malice by one's own people for asking them to perform rituals . One thing I am sure of is , that these great Imams ( leaders of men ) transformed their societies from barbaric , cruel , polytheistic and uncivilized one into a greatly civilized , established justice and equality amongst men and women .

Muhammad or Ahmad shared a lot of similarities with these past great prophets/messengers/Imams and have a lot in common with them . We could deduce from The Qur'an that , these Great Leaders were all chosen by Allah/God as His prophets/Messengers from amongst The Seekers of Truth and Knowledge , and they all had to go through the necessary learning processes as any human being should . In the case of Ibrahim we could see these process through The Qur'an 6:75-79 , as for Moses ...18:60-82 , these are by no means all of the Qur'anic evidences as there are much more to be found in the great reading . I have not cited any verses in Muhammad's case because there are far too many in the Qur'an .

Peace

almarh0m
Title: Re: Muhammad(pbuh)
Post by: Samia on April 29, 2009, 05:14:31 PM

"Justified War" is not only on "Self Defense"..
If there are ruthless / evil ruler oppressing a group of people (e.g. killing them through gas) , making war to topple that ruler and establish peace and justice can be considered "Justified War".

I agree with you. Verse 4:75: And why wouldn't you fight in the cause of God and the vulnerable men, women and children?