Free Minds

General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 09:07:39 AM

Title: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 09:07:39 AM
Any understanding will be appreciated and hope that members can participate and discuss this issue without provocations and ill-will?
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: zenje on August 15, 2006, 09:32:35 AM
My understanding - we need God, God does not need.

Peace
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Al-Quraishi on August 15, 2006, 09:58:26 AM
I agree with you 100% Zenje without one single provocation or ill-will ;)
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 10:13:09 AM
My understanding - we need God, God does not need.
Peace Zein, all,

That is part of the concern requested. Can you please expand on this notion of "we need God but God doesn't need us"? Thanks.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Al-Quraishi on August 15, 2006, 10:29:31 AM
God is the self-sufficient, eternal, all powerful. The omnipotence of God is part of our fundamental beliefs basically, can't see this being much more of a discussion unless you wish to elaborate further.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: zenje on August 15, 2006, 10:43:24 AM
Peace Danish,

I agree with what Al-Quraishi just pointed out. Also, the God is the Sustainer, Provider, Nourisher... we need the God. The God does not need, period.

I'm not sure if you're looking for something in particular, in your question, or am I missing something?

 :peace:
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: alpha97 on August 15, 2006, 12:30:33 PM
Peace all,

In the frame of human mind seeing |a purpose | indicates a need behind it!
Where there is an invention, first was a need!
When there is a plan, one searches a purpose. and in that purpose one EXAMINES THE DEGREE OF fullfillment to a NEED.
The creation is purposeful but the maker is not in NEED.
Here the parallel is broken. Man can not rationalize the act of GOD with the indicators of his own existence.
Later i will elaborate more!

HOWAL AZZIZ OL SAMAD
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 01:28:32 PM
God is the self-sufficient, eternal, all powerful. The omnipotence of God is part of our fundamental beliefs basically,...
And just how do know all this? If God doesn't need us, then what was "HIS" purpose of sending messengers and scriptures for us to obey "HIM"?
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 01:30:00 PM
Peace all,

In the frame of human mind seeing |a purpose | indicates a need behind it!
Where there is an invention, first was a need!
When there is a plan, one searches a purpose. and in that purpose one EXAMINES THE DEGREE OF fullfillment to a NEED.
The creation is purposeful but the maker is not in NEED.
Here the parallel is broken. Man can not rationalize the act of GOD with the indicators of his own existence.
Later i will elaborate more!

HOWAL AZZIZ OL SAMAD
Good deal, I'd certainly love to hear from you.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 15, 2006, 01:59:18 PM
Peace be upon you,

God DOES need man, just not the individual. What I mean is that we SERVE the God as vehicles for his attributes to come into the world. But we say the God does not need because wether it is you or I or someone else, the God WILL manifest. Thats why we can say that the God does not need. So to put it more clearly, the God USES man, but does not need anyone in particular.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Arnold Yasin on August 15, 2006, 02:00:48 PM
God is the self-sufficient, eternal, all powerful. The omnipotence of God is part of our fundamental beliefs basically,...
And just how do know all this? If God doesn't need us, then what was "HIS" purpose of sending messengers and scriptures for us to obey "HIM"?

Peace,

Yes, this is an important philosophical question. Parwez discussed this a lot in his work. In this book he gave some very intriguiging answers:

http://www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm (http://www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm)

Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 06:37:40 PM
God is the self-sufficient, eternal, all powerful. The omnipotence of God is part of our fundamental beliefs basically,...
And just how do know all this? If God doesn't need us, then what was "HIS" purpose of sending messengers and scriptures for us to obey "HIM"?

Peace,

Yes, this is an important philosophical question. Parwez discussed this a lot in his work. In this book he gave some very intriguiging answers:

http://www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm (http://www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm)
Parwez, in his introduction and first chapter, talks about stages of how man advances from primitive to current ethno-socio cultural upbringing by natural scientific measures, briefing tit-bits on idolworshipping and mythical as well as mystical aspects of human realization to become religions and then dwells right into Quran. I've not read all the chapters and are quite lengthy, but his general view is based upon Quran's divine adaptations. That does not answer my concerns.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 15, 2006, 06:47:04 PM
Peace be upon you,

God DOES need man, just not the individual. What I mean is that we SERVE the God as vehicles for his attributes to come into the world. But we say the God does not need because wether it is you or I or someone else, the God WILL manifest. Thats why we can say that the God does not need. So to put it more clearly, the God USES man, but does not need anyone in particular.
Hello Kyle,

Sorry bro, I have no idea what you're trying to convey. Perhaps you're mixing the relative terms (God does need or doesn't) together with God USES and not sure how exactly all this fits in. Either way, please be a little clear and show us where you get "HIS" attributes from? Can you give us a few examples of God's attributes being authenticated? Thanks.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 16, 2006, 08:52:14 AM
Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
Sorry bro, I have no idea what you're trying to convey. Perhaps you're mixing the relative terms (God does need or doesn't) together with God USES and not sure how exactly all this fits in. Either way, please be a little clear and show us where you get "HIS" attributes from? Can you give us a few examples of God's attributes being authenticated? Thanks.


Lets take the attribute Of God "Forgiver". We aremade according to the God's pattern. Therefore "the forgiver" is within us, waiting to be manifested. When we become forgiving, the God uses us to express "Its" forgiveness. So the God "needs" man because we(jinn and insaan) SERVE The God. However, we cant say that teh God "needs" any particular person because if you or I dont manifest that forgiveness, another person will step to the occasion. There is a verse that says something to the effedct that if we do not do what we are suppossed to, then the God will create another who WILL. I hope whoever remembers can provide this verse for me.

We are mental creations of God, just as we have our own mental creations. Just as easy as we imagine a certain image, we can erase it and have a new one with hardly any effort.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Samia on August 16, 2006, 09:00:31 AM
4:133
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 16, 2006, 09:03:52 AM
Peace be upon you Samia,

Thanks for the quick response. I was actually thinking of another verse, but this one is more direct and to the point, thank you.

(4:133) If He wills/wants He makes you go away, you the people, and He comes with others, and The God was/is on that capable/able.

(Free Minds)  O you people, if He wills, He could make all of you cease to exist; then He would bring others in your place. God is most capable to do this.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: zenje on August 16, 2006, 09:04:35 AM
Quote from: idolfree1
There is a verse that says something to the effedct that if we do not do what we are suppossed to, then the God will create another who WILL. I hope whoever remembers can provide this verse for me.

Not sure if you meant this...
9:38.   O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told: ?March forth in the cause of God,? you become heavy on Earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.
9:39.   If you do not march forth, then He will punish you with a painful retribution, and He will replace you with another people, and you do not bother Him in the least. God is capable of all things.


 
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 16, 2006, 09:10:30 AM
Peace be upon you Zenje,

I dont think that was the verse I was thinking of either, but it also fits the understanidng I am trying to share. Thank you.

This shows that the God has stold us repeatedly that "IT" Needs man, but doesnt NEED any one in particular. I hope I am making sense. I am not trying to paint the picture of a "god" that is worried that it wont manifest in teh physical world, It KNOWS it will and is at perfect PEACE.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 16, 2006, 12:22:07 PM
Sorry bro, I have no idea what you're trying to convey. Perhaps you're mixing the relative terms (God does need or doesn't) together with God USES and not sure how exactly all this fits in. Either way, please be a little clear and show us where you get "HIS" attributes from? Can you give us a few examples of God's attributes being authenticated? Thanks.

Lets take the attribute Of God "Forgiver". We aremade according to the God's pattern. Therefore "the forgiver" is within us, waiting to be manifested. When we become forgiving, the God uses us to express "Its" forgiveness. So the God "needs" man because we(jinn and insaan) SERVE The God. However, we cant say that teh God "needs" any particular person because if you or I dont manifest that forgiveness, another person will step to the occasion. There is a verse that says something to the effedct that if we do not do what we are suppossed to, then the God will create another who WILL. I hope whoever remembers can provide this verse for me.

We are mental creations of God, just as we have our own mental creations. Just as easy as we imagine a certain image, we can erase it and have a new one with hardly any effort.
Kyle, our "maker" (GOD) is beyond our perception and UNSEEN and UNKNOWN. Anything and everything to do with GOD are deliberations of our own imagination. The attributes assigned to this GOD are the figments of our imagination, a hypothetical or an extraordinary perception. According to Quran, the Allah is a male deity addressed by HE, HIM and HIS. This is also true for all other male gods and the same shared attributes are true for all female gods addressed as SHE and HER, outside the scope of this alleged divine book.

In primeval and midieval ages, man-made gods were common practices for simplistic and unrealistic social upbringing and continues its veneration to this day. Everything has always been a human affair and since generations, man has advanced and excelled through knowledge, intelligence and science directly related to nature/reality, and continues to do so.

The attributes, such as forgiving yet unforgiving, merciful yet merciless, present yet absent, knowing yet unknowing and so forth, all of which are extraordinarily assigned to gods and godesses which stems out of behavioural patterns and mindsets. There are not only humans as lords, gods and godesses, but all sorts of animals (birds as winged animals, two-headed beasts, cats, reptiles, etc.) and celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars, meteorites) as well, including fire, water and wind to assimilate, osmose and acclimatize the upright and evil, good and bad, wrong and right, construction and destruction, preservation and neglect, creation and annihilation, etcetera, etcetera, and therefore the attributes. It is due to these natural phenomenon and SIGNS of REALITY which gave man an upperhand to become dignified and somber in manner and character. BUT, Today, man has reached such higher levels of sophistication so as to compromise its very own living standards and existence in an extremely unusual and unbalanced systems yet can bring about death and destruction instantaneouly.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 16, 2006, 12:48:15 PM
Peace be upon you,

Quote
Kyle, our "maker" (GOD) is beyond our perception and UNSEEN and UNKNOWN.

Agreed.

Quote
Anything and everything to do with GOD are deliberations of our own imagination.

I disagree. Man is made according to the pattern of the God. The God is the CORE of Being. When we "know ourselves" we come to know The God. Thats how this all began.

Quote
The attributes assigned to this GOD are the figments of our imagination, a hypothetical or an extraordinary perception. According to Quran, the Allah is a male deity addressed by HE, HIM and HIS. This is also true for all other male gods and the same shared attributes are true for all female gods addressed as SHE and HER, outside the scope of this alleged divine book.


I disagree, I am told that "he" is used because there is no word for nueter gender in Arabic. Regarding other cultures, Khamit does not specify male nor female "gods". Only male and female energies that manifest from "NebErtcher" (Lord of All) that is above male and female distinction. I try not to write "He" anduse "IT".


Quote
In primeval and midieval ages, man-made gods were common practices for simplistic and unrealistic social upbringing and continues its veneration to this day. Everything has always been a human affair and since generations, man has advanced and excelled through knowledge, intelligence and science directly related to nature/reality, and continues to do so.

I am not sure I grasped what you were trying to say here so I will not comment.


Quote
The attributes, such as forgiving yet unforgiving, merciful yet merciless, present yet absent, knowing yet unknowing and so forth, all of which are extraordinarily assigned to godsand godesses which stems out of behavioural patterns and mindsets. There are not only humans as lords, gods and godesses, but all sorts of animals (birds as winged animals, two-headed beasts, cats, reptiles, etc.) and celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars, meteorites) as well, including fire, water and wind to assimilate, osmose and acclimatize the upright and evil, good and bad, wrong and right, construction and destruction, preservation and neglect, creation and annihilation, etcetera, etcetera, and therefore the attributes. It is due to these natural phenomenon and SIGNS of REALITY which gave man an upperhand to become dignified and somber in manner and character. BUT, Today, man has reached such higher levels of sophistication so as to compromise its very own living standards and existence in an extremely unusual and unbalanced systems yet can bring about death and destruction instantaneouly.

I am having a hard time understanding your point. The planets are used to symbolize energies in the universe that effect us. The part man part animals symbolized the divine and animal natures of man and how we must transcend the animal nature. They were not "gods", just ways to help people learn. At least this was the way of Khemet, were all came to learn.

Please give me a clear example of what you are stating so I can be clear.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: zenje on August 16, 2006, 01:18:44 PM
Quote from: Danish
According to Quran, the Allah is a male deity addressed by HE, HIM and HIS. This is also true for all other male gods and the same shared attributes are true for all female gods addressed as SHE and HER, outside the scope of this alleged divine book.
So with that same logic, then according to quran, there are many gods, since the God refers to himself as We?
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 16, 2006, 03:04:51 PM
Peace be upon you,

Quote
Kyle, our "maker" (GOD) is beyond our perception and UNSEEN and UNKNOWN.

Agreed.

Quote
Anything and everything to do with GOD are deliberations of our own imagination.

I disagree. Man is made according to the pattern of the God. The God is the CORE of Being. When we "know ourselves" we come to know The God. Thats how this all began.

Quote
The attributes assigned to this GOD are the figments of our imagination, a hypothetical or an extraordinary perception. According to Quran, the Allah is a male deity addressed by HE, HIM and HIS. This is also true for all other male gods and the same shared attributes are true for all female gods addressed as SHE and HER, outside the scope of this alleged divine book.


I disagree, I am told that "he" is used because there is no word for nueter gender in Arabic. Regarding other cultures, Khamit does not specify male nor female "gods". Only male and female energies that manifest from "NebErtcher" (Lord of All) that is above male and female distinction. I try not to write "He" anduse "IT".
First you agree that GOD is beyond perception and then you disagree the figment of our imagination. But then again, you bring about "patterns" of GOD, which itself is extraordinary imagination, LOL!! Kyle, you seem confused and not sure which way to go. Who or what is this GOD from which you extract "patterns" from? Unless humans have SEEN and KNOWN who or what GOD actually is, everything is imaginary, mythical, mystical, transcendental and thus, figment of our imaginations.

For what I have observed from most of your posts, you have been promoting the black Kemetic philosophy recently founded in NY and infusing it with Quran. The Kemetic philosophy is a revival of Egyptology. It is similar yet distinct from Quranic discernments. Do you believe in the Quranic or Kemetic wilfullness. The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra_Un_Nefer_Amen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausar_Auset_Society

Quote
In primeval and midieval ages, man-made gods were common practices for simplistic and unrealistic social upbringing and continues its veneration to this day. Everything has always been a human affair and since generations, man has advanced and excelled through knowledge, intelligence and science directly related to nature/reality, and continues to do so.

I am not sure I grasped what you were trying to say here so I will not comment.

Quote
The attributes, such as forgiving yet unforgiving, merciful yet merciless, present yet absent, knowing yet unknowing and so forth, all of which are extraordinarily assigned to godsand godesses which stems out of behavioural patterns and mindsets. There are not only humans as lords, gods and godesses, but all sorts of animals (birds as winged animals, two-headed beasts, cats, reptiles, etc.) and celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars, meteorites) as well, including fire, water and wind to assimilate, osmose and acclimatize the upright and evil, good and bad, wrong and right, construction and destruction, preservation and neglect, creation and annihilation, etcetera, etcetera, and therefore the attributes. It is due to these natural phenomenon and SIGNS of REALITY which gave man an upperhand to become dignified and somber in manner and character. BUT, Today, man has reached such higher levels of sophistication so as to compromise its very own living standards and existence in an extremely unusual and unbalanced systems yet can bring about death and destruction instantaneouly.

I am having a hard time understanding your point.
It's pretty clear and common sense. It touches briefly on how man began his socio-econo lifestyle. Parwez explains slightly better in the link provided by Arnold. Study history of man and reflect upon our current situations. They are very much the same but advanced in materialistic and ornamental ("icing on cakes") fashions via experimentations of nature.

Quote
The planets are used to symbolize energies in the universe that effect us. The part man part animals symbolized the divine and animal natures of man and how we must transcend the animal nature. They were not "gods", just ways to help people learn. At least this was the way of Khemet, were all came to learn.
You are once again mixing the current way of lifestyles to primeval ones and how man excelled to this day. Animals, humans and celestial bodies were, during primitive times, venerated as gods. The Quran also mentions this. Read the "the daughters of God", the story of Abrahim, the "house of Allah" and much more.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 16, 2006, 03:12:52 PM
Quote from: Danish
According to Quran, the Allah is a male deity addressed by HE, HIM and HIS. This is also true for all other male gods and the same shared attributes are true for all female gods addressed as SHE and HER, outside the scope of this alleged divine book.
So with that same logic, then according to quran, there are many gods, since the God refers to himself as We?
The "we" is pluralistic, designating many and is purely human in terms of carrying a message. It cannot be GOD ALONE. Man-made deities made from clay/mud or other earthly materials, are insignificant in this respect.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Lobster on August 16, 2006, 04:19:44 PM
Quote
everything is imaginary, mythical, mystical, transcendental and thus, figment of our imaginations.

not really.
Danish, i do get your point, but for some reason you can't understand that "god" can actually mean something other than what you think it means. The question you should be asking isn't "is God real?" but "what is God?"
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Elena on August 17, 2006, 04:02:17 AM
Peace Danish

. The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra_Un_Nefer_Amen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausar_Auset_Society

wikipedia is not the infallible source of knowledge.

You can know what is Kemetic philosophy reading Ra Un Nefer books much better than believing blindy faulty net resources. --as you implied by saying "The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:" 

I came to know it through the books Maat The 11 Laws of God and Metu Neter, I recommend you them, the teachings serve everybody.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: enquirer on August 17, 2006, 04:51:37 AM
Easy folks. The mythical concept of monotheism and one god needs humans to support it....Without humans blindly worshipping an unrealistic entity,god would have no power in the world,eg if everbody just said 'forget god/religion,lets just try to be peaceful and happy to the best of our knowledge and ability',then i feel the 'hypnotic' conditioned effect of god/religion would fade away,and peace could be more realistic....Of course since the 'enlightenment' this has been happening in western society to an extent anyway....Lets hope the fundamentalists,philistines,luddites and sectarians dont gain to much sway in the land...
 :handshake: :muscle: :bravo:
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 06:06:35 AM
Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
First you agree that GOD is beyond perception and then you disagree the figment of our imagination. But then again, you bring about "patterns" of GOD, which itself is extraordinary imagination, LOL!! Kyle, you seem confused and not sure which way to go. Who or what is this GOD from which you extract "patterns" from? Unless humans have SEEN and KNOWN who or what GOD actually is, everything is imaginary, mythical, mystical, transcendental and thus, figment of our imaginations.

Let me clarify my position. The God is UNSEEN, however this does not lead to UNPROVEABLE. In the same manner that wind and gravity are unseen, yet proveable by MATHEMATICS. MATHEMATICS proves the Unseen Intelligence responsible for the creation of the Universe. Once we understand that thier is an Intelligence that creates all things according to MATHEMATICAL PATTERNS, and we begin to observe the cycles of the universe (movement of planets, peaking of digestion around 12noon, womens menstruation, etc) then we can extract information from these observable laws.


Quote
For what I have observed from most of your posts, you have been promoting the black Kemetic philosophy recently founded in NY and infusing it with Quran. The Kemetic philosophy is a revival of Egyptology. It is similar yet distinct from Quranic discernments. Do you believe in the Quranic or Kemetic wilfullness.


I have been promoting that which has descended upon me AND THOSE BEFORE ME, just as this reading(quran) suggests we do. And there has been no secret at all about that. I do not restrict myself to one text, especially when that text tells me not to. It is not the book called quran that is fully detailed, it is the Universe that is fully detailed. The problem many have is that when they look back to "that which descedned before me", they look only to the Jewish and Christian books, as if no other culture recieved messengers and prophets. I chose to go back to the oldest recorded spiritual philosophy, that records indicate was a "mecca" for knowledge to many cultures. I cannot overstate how beneficial my search has been and that is why I strongly recommend the same books over and over again for those who want help with the very same questions you are posing to me today.

But let me be clear, I deal with that which can be PROVEN, not blind faith, and that is what this reading(quran) is teaching us. It is not teaching us to blindly believe in a single text, it states that the signs are from the horizons to within our spirits(nafs). Lets not close our eyes to wise teachings.


Quote
The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra_Un_Nefer_Amen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausar_Auset_Society



Thank you for sharing that. I just want to add however that this is not "black" kemetic philosophy, just kemetic philosophy. Although it is true that this group is geared towards African and African Americans, knowledge is for everyone and I have never seen anyone turned away from coming to thier classes and certainly not from buying the books or audio cd's of classes. The teaching itself is about transcending your animalistic level, where race is an issue.

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I am having a hard time understanding your point.

It's pretty clear and common sense. It touches briefly on how man began his socio-econo lifestyle. Parwez explains slightly better in the link provided by Arnold. Study history of man and reflect upon our current situations. They are very much the same but advanced in materialistic and ornamental ("icing on cakes") fashions via experimentations of nature.


Please provide the link

Quote
Quote
The planets are used to symbolize energies in the universe that effect us. The part man part animals symbolized the divine and animal natures of man and how we must transcend the animal nature. They were not "gods", just ways to help people learn. At least this was the way of Khemet, were all came to learn.



You are once again mixing the current way of lifestyles to primeval ones and how man excelled to this day. Animals, humans and celestial bodies were, during primitive times, venerated as gods. The Quran also mentions this. Read the "the daughters of God", the story of Abrahim, the "house of Allah" and much more.

Yes, some did, but some did not. If you would take time to understand the teachings of Khemet where much of it came from, you would understand that they did not worship planets and animals, etc.

Its the same as what happens today, many take the metaphors and symbolisms as literal and get astray.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 06:10:23 AM
Peace be upon you Elena,

Quote
I came to know it through the books Maat The 11 Laws of God and Metu Neter, I recommend you them, the teachings serve everybody.

Exactly! Thank you for confirming that from a non African/African American perspective.

Danish, "MAAT, 11 LAws of God" is very quick read and very informative, I strongly recommend it to all. Metu Neter is a lot more complex.

But again, this is for those who are not stuck to just one text for aquiring knowledge. 
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 06:16:45 AM
Peace be upon you Enquirer,

Quote
Easy folks. The mythical concept of monotheism and one god needs humans to support it.
.

I am not promoting monotheism, I am promoting the UNIFYING FORCE within man, that same force that makes all the cells work as ONE and coordinates all your unconscious actions such as digesting food, etc. This same "Force" must be cultivated to manifest in the outer world, in our daily actions.

Quote
..Without humans blindly worshipping an unrealistic entity,god would have no power in the world,eg if everbody just said 'forget god/religion,lets just try to be peaceful and happy to the best of our knowledge and ability',then i feel the 'hypnotic' conditioned effect of god/religion would fade away,and peace could be more realistic....Of course since the 'enlightenment' this has been happening in western society to an extent anyway....Lets hope the fundamentalists,philistines,luddites and sectarians dont gain to much sway in the land...

I agree, we should not be worshipping a "god out there", that is unrealistic and unverifyable. That which we SERVE is at the core of our being. It is THAT which percieves the world, but itself cannot be percieved. And we can all bear witness to this fact that within us ALL, we have THAT whic percieves, but itself cannot be percieved. That is consciousness itself, the ONE consciousness that manifests through the many earthly vehicles. We do not "worship" That, we serve THAT.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 17, 2006, 07:50:22 AM
Hello Elena,

wikipedia is not the infallible source of knowledge.
Encyclopedias are sources of extensive and most accurate information containing valuable references to vast line of subject matters. Ofcourse, it is not a detailed instruction book or a coaching/tuitioning manual but enlightens upon the subject itself as to what it is. Kemetic religion is just a grain of salt in the world of information contained in Encyclopedias, such as Wikipedia, Britanica, Answers.com, Encarta, etc.

Quote
You can know what is Kemetic philosophy reading Ra Un Nefer books much better than believing blindy faulty net resources. --as you implied by saying "The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:" 

I came to know it through the books Maat The 11 Laws of God and Metu Neter, I recommend you them, the teachings serve everybody.
Maat is another term for "divine law", just like Quran is. They are two totally distinct religions and carries the same blind and delusional beliefs underlying some of the basic universal principles which all religions teaches.

Here's something very interesting....A MUST READ:
Ma?t (believed to be pronounced Muh-aht) was the Ancient Egyptian concept of law, morality, and justice which was deified as a goddess. As a goddess, her masculine counterpart was Djehuty (i.e. Thoth) and their attributes go hand in hand. Like Djehuty, she was seen to represent the Logos of Plato. Her primary role in Egyptian mythology dealt with the weighing of words that took place in the Underworld, Duat.

Because it was the pharaoh's duty to ensure truth and justice, many of them were referred to as Meri-Ma'at (Beloved of Ma'at). Since she was considered as merely the concept of order and truth, it was thought that she came into existence at the moment of creation, having no creator. When beliefs about Thoth arose and started to consume the earlier beliefs at Hermopolis about the Ogdoad, it was said that she was the mother of the Ogdoad and Thoth the father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A0t
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: lovelymoslems on August 17, 2006, 07:57:19 AM
35:15 O men! It is you, who stand in need of God, whereas He alone is self-sufficient, the One to whom all praise is due.

51:57 No Sustenance do I require of them, nor do I require that they should feed Me.

17:107 Say: Believe therein or believe not, lo! those who were given knowledge before it, when it is read unto them, fall down prostrate on their faces, adoring,
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Elena on August 17, 2006, 08:00:40 AM
Hi Danish

please, you still knows nothing what kemetic philosophy is about, kindly I ask you to stop reading wikipedia and taken everything there, please, have a look at those books and you will know what it is about.

Hello Elena,

wikipedia is not the infallible source of knowledge.
Encyclopedias are sources of extensive and most accurate information containing valuable references to vast line of subject matters. Ofcourse, it is not a detailed instruction book or a coaching/tuitioning manual but enlightens upon the subject itself as to what it is. Kemetic religion is just a grain of salt in the world of information contained in Encyclopedias, such as Wikipedia, Britanica, Answers.com, Encarta, etc.

Quote
You can know what is Kemetic philosophy reading Ra Un Nefer books much better than believing blindy faulty net resources. --as you implied by saying "The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:" 

I came to know it through the books Maat The 11 Laws of God and Metu Neter, I recommend you them, the teachings serve everybody.
Maat is another term for "divine law", just like Quran is. They are two totally distinct religions and carries the same blind and delusional beliefs underlying some of the basic universal principles which all religions teaches.

Here's something very interesting....A MUST READ:
Ma?t (believed to be pronounced Muh-aht) was the Ancient Egyptian concept of law, morality, and justice which was deified as a goddess. As a goddess, her masculine counterpart was Djehuty (i.e. Thoth) and their attributes go hand in hand. Like Djehuty, she was seen to represent the Logos of Plato. Her primary role in Egyptian mythology dealt with the weighing of words that took place in the Underworld, Duat.

Because it was the pharaoh's duty to ensure truth and justice, many of them were referred to as Meri-Ma'at (Beloved of Ma'at). Since she was considered as merely the concept of order and truth, it was thought that she came into existence at the moment of creation, having no creator. When beliefs about Thoth arose and started to consume the earlier beliefs at Hermopolis about the Ogdoad, it was said that she was the mother of the Ogdoad and Thoth the father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A0t
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 17, 2006, 08:26:35 AM
Hi Danish

please, you still knows nothing what kemetic philosophy is about, kindly I ask you to stop reading wikipedia and taken everything there, please, have a look at those books and you will know what it is about.

Hello Elena,

wikipedia is not the infallible source of knowledge.
Encyclopedias are sources of extensive and most accurate information containing valuable references to vast line of subject matters. Ofcourse, it is not a detailed instruction book or a coaching/tuitioning manual but enlightens upon the subject itself as to what it is. Kemetic religion is just a grain of salt in the world of information contained in Encyclopedias, such as Wikipedia, Britanica, Answers.com, Encarta, etc.

Quote
You can know what is Kemetic philosophy reading Ra Un Nefer books much better than believing blindy faulty net resources. --as you implied by saying "The following is what Kemetic religion is all about:" 

I came to know it through the books Maat The 11 Laws of God and Metu Neter, I recommend you them, the teachings serve everybody.
Maat is another term for "divine law", just like Quran is. They are two totally distinct religions and carries the same blind and delusional beliefs underlying some of the basic universal principles which all religions teaches.

Here's something very interesting....A MUST READ:
Ma?t (believed to be pronounced Muh-aht) was the Ancient Egyptian concept of law, morality, and justice which was deified as a goddess. As a goddess, her masculine counterpart was Djehuty (i.e. Thoth) and their attributes go hand in hand. Like Djehuty, she was seen to represent the Logos of Plato. Her primary role in Egyptian mythology dealt with the weighing of words that took place in the Underworld, Duat.

Because it was the pharaoh's duty to ensure truth and justice, many of them were referred to as Meri-Ma'at (Beloved of Ma'at). Since she was considered as merely the concept of order and truth, it was thought that she came into existence at the moment of creation, having no creator. When beliefs about Thoth arose and started to consume the earlier beliefs at Hermopolis about the Ogdoad, it was said that she was the mother of the Ogdoad and Thoth the father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A0t
Since you know your Kemetic religion that well, then please let us know what faults did you come across in those wikipedia links that you disagree with and that which is false according to Kemetic beliefs. Do you want me to present other sources besides wikipedia that talks about the same thing but in different wordings? Just because I'm exposing this delusional Kemetic belief, doesn't mean that you start insisting upon it and thereby disbelieve in everything else and start alluding to all other information as faulty. I'm not sure if you know your own Kemetic belief that well but will soon find out. Very typical of Quranists adherents. Now, we are seeing Kemetic and Islamic religioins being infused and cloaked together. What a joke this religionists are becoming, all in the name of their invented gods. 
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 17, 2006, 08:38:34 AM
One more thing: Does your Kemetic religion promote Muhammad, Islam, Quran and Allah? Yes or NO???
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Elena on August 17, 2006, 09:32:11 AM
Peace Danish

Since you know your Kemetic religion that well,
Please, quote where I said I know Kemetic well. I am reading and learning about the things I am interested in. 

Quote from: Danish
then please let us know what faults did you come across in those wikipedia links that you disagree with and that which is false according to Kemetic beliefs.

sure, in the first links you gave, other links are available, I clicked on them but  the content had nothing to do with the teachings, that are what is worthy.

The path has been:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausar_Auset_Society
on that page I clicked on the word "Kemetic" that gives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemetic_Reconstructionism
in this page I clicked on the word "Amun" as it is presented as part of Kemetic but the resulting page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun has nothing to do with the teachings of that philosphy, then I clicked on "Isis" and seeing the result I gave up, those pages connect with the traditional explanations, history of religions books, etc and not with the Kemetic philopshy I have reading about and from I learnt a lot.
 

Quote
Do you want me to present other sources besides wikipedia that talks about the same thing but in different wordings?

of course not, I am asking you not to insist on taking information just from the net, don't beleive just becasue it is written somewhere, verify yourself if you are interested, and if you are not, please, abstain from judging what you don't know.

Quote
Just because I'm exposing this delusional Kemetic belief,
you have no idea about it and you call it "delusional"  besides, it is not a belief.

Quote
doesn't mean that you start insisting upon it and thereby disbelieve in everything else and start alluding to all other information as faulty.
What I say is that those sources you take as truth don't explain the teachings of that philosophy. It is you who takes wikipedia to measure kemetic, wrong approach.

Quote
I'm not sure if you know your own Kemetic belief that well but will soon find out.
you speak as if you knew about it?

Quote
Very typical of Quranists adherents.
Ia m not a "Quranist adherent" I don't adhere to any religion but to the teachings my mind finds valuable, in any religion, they can come from Jainism, Kemetic, Skhism, Islam or atheism, philosophy, a wise word of a friend, any source.

Quote
Now, we are seeing Kemetic and Islamic religioins being infused and cloaked together. What a joke this religionists are becoming, all in the name of their invented gods
those words make me say  I understand you feel bad about organised religions, any of them can be harmful if imposed and ritualizaded.  Once realased from them you will be able to be more objective and take the valuable if they have.

Quote
One more thing: Does your Kemetic religion promote Muhammad, Islam, Quran and Allah? Yes or NO???
noo, it promotes peace, but you are taken literally those words, Muhammad, Islam, etc, yopu are speaking about a man and about an organised religion, if you take islam as peace, then yes, and it is not mine  :D  I don't follow any religion Danish!!! it is kemetic philosophy, not an organised religion, I don't "follow" any philosophy, I learn what I can.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 10:37:09 AM
Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
Maat is another term for "divine law", just like Quran is. They are two totally distinct religions and carries the same blind and delusional beliefs underlying some of the basic universal principles which all religions teaches.

Blind and delussional? Give one example.

Quote
Here's something very interesting....A MUST READ:
Ma?t (believed to be pronounced Muh-aht) was the Ancient Egyptian concept of law, morality, and justice which was deified as a goddess.


Incorrect. In the records we read "nebetcher", or LORD OF ALL. Therefore there are no other gods or goddesses. These concepts are more likened to the malaika. Others who came after accussed the ancients of many gods and goddesses. You are doing a blanket search trying to understand information that is misunderstood by most, same way if youdid a blanket research of "Islam", you wouldget a bunch of nonsense. Maat does represent Law however.

Quote
As a goddess, her masculine counterpart was Djehuty (i.e. Thoth) and their attributes go hand in hand. Like Djehuty, she was seen to represent the Logos of Plato. Her primary role in Egyptian mythology dealt with the weighing of words that took place in the Underworld, Duat.

Tehuti and Maat both deal with SEEING and by that , MEASURE. Tehuti deals with weighing of words and Maat with weighing of actions. I have no idea how you can compare it to Plato which came after that.

Quote
Because it was the pharaoh's duty to ensure truth and justice, many of them were referred to as Meri-Ma'at (Beloved of Ma'at). Since she was considered as merely the concept of order and truth, it was thought that she came into existence at the moment of creation, having no creator. When beliefs about Thoth arose and started to consume the earlier beliefs at Hermopolis about the Ogdoad, it was said that she was the mother of the Ogdoad and Thoth the father.

That is total nonsense. It reminds me of Muhammad having the sexua power of 30 men or some nonsense.

Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 10:47:59 AM
Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
Since you know your Kemetic religion that well, then please let us know what faults did you come across in those wikipedia links that you disagree with and that which is false according to Kemetic beliefs. Do you want me to present other sources besides wikipedia that talks about the same thing but in different wordings?


In the same manner, you can present millions of links about sunnisim, will that be a fair assesment of "islam"? I hope you get the point. If you want to critisize, then please go to the information that is being referred to you and draw your critisisms from that.


Quote
Just because I'm exposing this delusional Kemetic belief, doesn't mean that you start insisting upon it and thereby disbelieve in everything else and start alluding to all other information as faulty. I'm not sure if you know your own Kemetic belief that well but will soon find out. Very typical of Quranists adherents. Now, we are seeing Kemetic and Islamic religioins being infused and cloaked together. What a joke this religionists are becoming, all in the name of their invented gods. 


All messengers were sent with the same message, we are to trust in that which descedned upon us and those before us. We are no those who join sects.

I myself, and I would assume Elena as well(but she can speak for herself) are in search of TRUTH, no matter where it comes from. What I have come to find out is that the symbolisms of all these teachings are basicaly the same and it is my intention to show as many as possible.

Of course, there is no compulsion for you to follow, but I just ask that if you critisize, do some study first, dont just grab information that you have no experience with and pass it off as law.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 10:54:56 AM
Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
One more thing: Does your Kemetic religion promote Muhammad

Literal hostorical figure? No

description of one exalting themself through the God's teachings, Yes

Quote
Islam?

Arabic religion? No

Descritption of PEACE? Absolutely, Peace (called Amen in Khamit) is the highest goal.

Quote
Quran

Literal book? Of course not, it came THOUSANDS of years before that.

The word Quran just means "reading/announcement/proclamation", there are several books that have come out of Khamit such as the "Book of the Coming forth by Day", which would be "quran". ALL teachings are described as quran, our job is to VERIFY the teachings in everyday life.

Quote
and Allah?


Yes, the term would be "Nebetcher" (Lord of All) and what ignorant egyptologists, who have no undestanding of African thought, call "gods" are the Malaikah.



Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 17, 2006, 11:34:59 AM
Kemetic religion is nothing more than a revival and reconstruction of an ancient pagan belief as an advanced system recently formulated (check any of the links below). Every religion approaches its primitive beliefs in much the same ways as mankind advances and surely but slowly shunning dogmatic pagan ideologies and realizing the most natural and realistic ways of living their lives. All religions are imposed and ritualistic in their own invented and innovated ways.

Islam threatens, apostatizes, condemns and sends all others to hell if they disbelieve in its dogmas (especially the alleged divine historic Quranic laws), which no other religion does with such ferociousness. Actually, Muhammad condemns everyone who disbelieves in his deity named Allah and the system he brings about. Shockingly, this same deity sends wrath upon its own believers by commanding that everyone will taste his punishment. In essence, there's no way out for Muslims. They are stuck in their own whirlpools from moving ahead and thinking straight. We can see a few of the thickest ones trolling around on this forum and thousands of others seen all over the world.

The basic tenants of living a ?peaceful, meaningful and purposeful? life are common to all humankinds, including the atheists and are NOT specific to any religious belief whatsoever. The differences among all organized religions originate from primeval beliefs of false gods and goddesses, myths and mystics, and carry its pagan orthodoxy deeply rooted and presumptuously hidden in an advanced fashion. The TRUE and REAL "maker" of our creations (if there is one) is UNSEEN and UNKNOWN to all mankind. The assumptions and excuses of wind and gravity to become KNOWN yet UNSEEN is not a similitude of a ?maker? that is beyond our capacities. The only TRUTH is REALITY and what is KNOWN and/or SEEN.

http://search.earthlink.net/search?q=Kemetic&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowband&cgid=1&li=0
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Magi on August 17, 2006, 11:45:45 AM
Peace idolfree1

Quote
Yes, the term would be "Nebetcher" (Lord of All) and what ignorant egyptologists, who have no undestanding of African thought, call "gods" are the Malaikah.

In my understanding, this might be true. However there is no doubt that there has been a perversion of the principles, similar to what happened to hinduism, going on. We see strong traces of this in todays masonry (alltho keep in mind, much of the stuff they are into are made up, plain and simple) and the understanding promoted by masonic scholars. There is berufsverbot regarding archeology and egypt. Anyone who doesnt go along with what the pharisees of egyptology wants to belive, is rideculed and several have had their careers ruined for trying. I strongly belive that several generations would have had multiple gods, and thus, the civilisation fell, just like ours is about to for the same very reason.





Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Elena on August 17, 2006, 12:06:44 PM
Peace

Quote from: Danish
Kemetic religion is nothing more than a revival and reconstruction of an ancient pagan belief as an advanced system recently formulated (check any of the links below). ...


again with links and taken what others say as the truth.

As with any other source, you have to check, study, use reasoning or at least, read a bit by yourself, not the summaries others give.



Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 12:28:10 PM
Peace be upon you Danish,

Quote
Kemetic religion is nothing more than a revival and reconstruction of an ancient pagan belief as an advanced system recently formulated (check any of the links below). Every religion approaches its primitive beliefs in much the same ways as mankind advances and surely but slowly shunning dogmatic pagan ideologies and realizing the most natural and realistic ways of living their lives. All religions are imposed and ritualistic in their own invented and innovated ways.

Islam threatens, apostatizes, condemns and sends all others to hell if they disbelieve in its dogmas (especially the alleged divine historic Quranic laws), which no other religion does with such ferociousness. Actually, Muhammad condemns everyone who disbelieves in his deity named Allah and the system he brings about. Shockingly, this same deity sends wrath upon its own believers by commanding that everyone will taste his punishment. In essence, there's no way out for Muslims. They are stuck in their own whirlpools from moving ahead and thinking straight. We can see a few of the thickest ones trolling around on this forum and thousands of others seen all over the world.

The basic tenants of living a ?peaceful, meaningful and purposeful? life are common to all humankinds, including the atheists and are NOT specific to any religious belief whatsoever. The differences among all organized religions originate from primeval beliefs of false gods and goddesses, myths and mystics, and carry its pagan orthodoxy deeply rooted and presumptuously hidden in an advanced fashion. The TRUE and REAL "maker" of our creations (if there is one) is UNSEEN and UNKNOWN to all mankind. The assumptions and excuses of wind and gravity to become KNOWN yet UNSEEN is not a similitude of a ?maker? that is beyond our capacities. The only TRUTH is REALITY and what is KNOWN and/or SEEN.

Danish, if you had the patience you could see that I do not follow religion, I folow that which is verifyable. Once you show me that whatever  promote is not verifyable, then you will have a point. Until then, I respect your opinion but you continue to pull up sites about Khemet that are incorrect, the same way a search on Islam will give you thousands of foolish sites.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 12:37:54 PM
Peace be upon you Magi,

Quote
Quote
Yes, the term would be "Nebetcher" (Lord of All) and what ignorant egyptologists, who have no undestanding of African thought, call "gods" are the Malaikah.

In my understanding, this might be true. However there is no doubt that there has been a perversion of the principles, similar to what happened to hinduism, going on. We see strong traces of this in todays masonry (alltho keep in mind, much of the stuff they are into are made up, plain and simple) and the understanding promoted by masonic scholars. There is berufsverbot regarding archeology and egypt. Anyone who doesnt go along with what the pharisees of egyptology wants to belive, is rideculed and several have had their careers ruined for trying. I strongly belive that several generations would have had multiple gods, and thus, the civilisation fell, just like ours is about to for the same very reason.


Yes, I agree, but just as with "islam", I dwell on the proper understandings that were intended by the symbols and metaphors, not what those who "lost thier salaat" came and corrupted.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: xthug on August 17, 2006, 04:02:18 PM
Selam all,

danish its quite simple,
The Almighty GOD is truly rich; he is free from any Need. <--- easy as that.

now that is to say The Creator "Wanted" our existence, he does not "need" any of his creations including us.


i'll make it simpler for you;    you "need" water  .....  you "want" a mercedes benz.

all praise is due to the Most Merciful, the Irrisistable.

peace, ex



Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: Danish on August 17, 2006, 04:28:59 PM
Selam all,

danish its quite simple,
The Almighty GOD is truly rich; he is free from any Need. <--- easy as that.

now that is to say The Creator "Wanted" our existence, he does not "need" any of his creations including us.


i'll make it simpler for you;    you "need" water  .....  you "want" a mercedes benz.

all praise is due to the Most Merciful, the Irrisistable.

peace, ex
Thanks but no thanks. I'll take the most truthful and sophisticated route.
Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: xthug on August 17, 2006, 05:06:40 PM
you have free will to choose your way and i mine, it's called free will, i believe God created and gave us free, and that God is omnipotent, and you believe what you believe in i'm cool with that :)

by the way i'm glad you have an interest in islam, and you will understand what your free will wants you to understand out of it.


peace danish, ex

Title: Re: God needs us and/or we need God?
Post by: lovelymoslems on August 18, 2006, 09:55:48 AM
Since you know your Kemetic religion that well, then please let us know what faults did you come across in those wikipedia links that you disagree with and that which is false according to Kemetic beliefs. Do you want me to present other sources besides wikipedia that talks about the same thing but in different wordings? Just because I'm exposing this delusional Kemetic belief, doesn't mean that you start insisting upon it and thereby disbelieve in everything else and start alluding to all other information as faulty. I'm not sure if you know your own Kemetic belief that well but will soon find out. Very typical of Quranists adherents. Now, we are seeing Kemetic and Islamic religioins being infused and cloaked together. What a joke this religionists are becoming, all in the name of their invented gods. 

Islam recognizes no religion, Islam recognizes that Allah taught men a deen, a way of life prevails for every human creature. So Adam was a moslem, Abraham was a moslem, Isaac was a moslem, Yesus was a moslem.

Allah is perfect, no and never changes in His taught. If you think Allah is otherwise I worry you don't ever know God.