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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Zara on August 09, 2006, 06:34:14 AM

Title: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Zara on August 09, 2006, 06:34:14 AM
It is common practice among muslims to place pbuh (peace be upon him) after writing or saying the prophet's name. According to the quran is there anything wrong with  placing this after the name of one who is no longer in this world
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Alen on August 09, 2006, 06:56:27 AM
As salamu alykum wr wb.
Respectfully.

You should always check the Qur'an.
If it says you can, then do it, if it says it's a sin, then don't do it.
Simple as that.

May The Almighty Allah reward you with Paradise.
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: muslimah22 on August 09, 2006, 07:01:43 AM
salam alekom we rahmatoallah we barakaatoo

i dont think there is anything wrong by saying "peace be upon him" but as previously mentioned, check all things from the Quran. By the way, many people forget these 4 words when mentioning other prophets which should not be forgotton:)

Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 09, 2006, 02:02:04 PM
I agree that there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with following pboh when mentioning the prophets. It seems to me that it's only a matter of respect.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: ik75243 on August 09, 2006, 03:33:25 PM
i think differentiating between the prophets is a violation, i see nothing wrong with PBUH as long as you do it to ALL the prophets
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Samia on August 09, 2006, 04:19:34 PM
 This is an Arabic habit like saying, when mentioning someone who is dead: ra7imahu/a Allah (My God Have mercy on them). Does this exist in English?
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: ik75243 on August 09, 2006, 09:42:08 PM
peace Samia

I believe in English its:

"May God have mercy on his soul"
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Magi on August 10, 2006, 04:53:37 AM
peace

Please dont do it, because all these phrases makes text truely annoying to read. Who does it serve to write or say pbuh but ones own ego. "See look at me, see how saved I am!". The best respect you can give those who passed the information is to take it seriously.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: zenje on August 10, 2006, 02:36:09 PM
Peace be with you Zara,

27:59.   Say: ?Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected.? Is God better, or that which you set up?

Chapter 37
79.   Peace be upon Noah among the worlds.

109.   Peace be upon Abraham.

120.   Peace be upon Moses and Aaron.

130.   Peace be upon the family of Elias.

180.   Glory be to your Lord, the Lord of greatness, for what they have described.
181.   And peace be upon the messengers.
182.   And praise be to God, Lord of the worlds.


 :peace:
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Edip Yuksel on August 11, 2006, 12:22:17 AM
Dear Zara:

Adding PBUH or SAW, etc, after the name of Muhammad as a rule is a symptom of idolization. I have written numerous supporting arguments on this point, but now I have no time to post them here. Especially considering the utterance of the name Muhammad without such words or acronym of praise as disrespect is declaration of idol-worship.

The Quran teaches us to utter the names of prophets without PBUH (Peace bu upon him) or SAW (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) or any other discriminating titles. Please REFLECT on 2:136. There you will find the answer to your question.

Peace,
Edip
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: ik75243 on August 11, 2006, 12:11:03 PM
2:136    Say: "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: amanda on August 13, 2006, 08:58:12 AM
salam alaykum wr wb

i do beleive i read in the quran that many prophets have said not for sure but form my memory

that they say peace be upon me the day i was born the day i die and the day i will be ressurected?

i think if anyone says peace be upon any prophets

keep in mind not making a distinction

id prefer

Muhammad peace be upon him and all the prophets and servants of Allah

thats justs me

also if your not clear on somehting i think the quran says to stay away from it

so i dont say antyhing after it since im not clear on the issue

Allahu Ellem

but maybe we shoudl just stick to saying peace be upon all the prophets and messengers inshaAllah

amanda
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Edip Yuksel on August 13, 2006, 10:45:34 AM
Quote
that they say peace be upon me the day i was born the day i die and the day i will be ressurected?

The verse you are referring is

19:33   "Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am resurrected alive."

But, the verse I refered to starts with the word SAY. Do you see the difference? If God wanted us to say PBUH or similar titles before and after prophets names, He would include them in the text that He wants us to utter. Isn't that clear and simple to understand?

Respect to God's messengers including Muhammad, is not by adding some phrases after and before their names, but by following their message. Muhammad's message tells us to SAY or UTTER their names like we utter each other's names.

If you were an objective observer watching Muslims uttering God's name and Muhammad's name, without doubt you would think that Muhammad is their biggest god. That is obvious from the amount of noise they make when Muhammad's name is uttered. You should not join their noise.

Peace,
Edip
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 13, 2006, 01:17:12 PM
But, the verse I refered to starts with the word SAY. Do you see the difference? If God wanted us to say PBUH or similar titles before and after prophets names, He would include them in the text that He wants us to utter. Isn't that clear and simple to understand?

Salam,

It seemed pretty clear when zenje posted the following:

27:59.   Say: ?Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected.? Is God better, or that which you set up?

Edip, can you please explain your point of view with regards to 27:59.

thanks
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: lovelymoslems on August 14, 2006, 09:42:48 AM
pbuh is discrimination, Allah's say do not distinguish to prophets !

[QS.2/136] Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Samia on August 14, 2006, 09:51:19 AM
Quote


Quote from: zenje on August 10, 2006, 05:36:09 PM
27:59.   Say: ?Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected.? Is God better, or that which you set up?


Who are "His servants whom He has selected"? Are they only prophets/messengers?
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 14, 2006, 10:40:34 AM
pbuh is discrimination, Allah's say do not distinguish to prophets !
[QS.2/136] Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

Salam,

I agree 100% that we shouldn't make difference between one and another. It's the notion of saying May peace be upon him/her. What is discrimination I were to say, "... and Moses (pboh)" ...

Quote
Who are "His servants whom He has selected"? Are they only prophets/messengers?

I believe that prophethood is selection by God (sort of say). At the same time, I still see nothing wrong with wishing peace upon the living or dead (if even if they do not hear) it is a practice of respect for the individual saying it.

I still would love to hear Edips explaination of the verse which zenje posted. I understand very well Edip's observation of:

Quote
If you were an objective observer watching Muslims uttering God's name and Muhammad's name, without doubt you would think that Muhammad is their biggest god.

However are we to judge from the acts of men or from Quran? Edip, if you would please be kind enough to explain your point of view with regards to 27:59. thanks.. peace..
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Edip Yuksel on August 14, 2006, 01:15:47 PM
Dear Mahdi:

The verse is not using that phrase after the name of a particular messenger. Besides, we are not asked to utter that all the time. The problem with traditional custom is this:

1. Discrimination
2. Turning it to a requirement of RESPECTing Muhammad.

Peace,
Edip
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 14, 2006, 04:51:15 PM
Salam Edip,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my somewhat simplistic question. The definition of Respect does include "deferential". My understanding of the Quran shows me that we are to "make no difference between one and another of them" (prophets) as in 2:136 and also that Allah has used the example of the Prophets to differentiate between conduct of those who are rightly guided as oppose to those who are not. Is it not better to take the example of Allah as a form of conduct? (ref. Zene's post of Surah37)

You are correct that we are not asked to utter Peace be on him/them all the time and I agree with you about the requirement of traditional customs. I believe that we aught to strive to close the schism between our brothers and sisters. I pray that you don't deny the existance and view points of Believers, like myself, who find ourselves caught in between the view points of reformist and traditionalist.

I will (insha_Allah) process and meditate on your view point. In the mean time, please, if you do see me use: (pboh) after referring to a Prophet, please do not classify me as an idolator.

May Peace and Guidance be upon us all.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Samia on August 15, 2006, 01:36:48 AM
The problem with traditionlists is that they do not bother to put a title before any prophet except before prophet Mohammad (a must) and Jesus (you may not). Even in this case, it is still considered blasphemic to say: Mohammad pbuh (in Arabic: 3alaihis-salaam) because this is reserved for Jesus only. The Arabic "title of respect" for prophet Mohammad is (in transliteration): Salla allahu 3alaihi wa sallam (Allah prays upon him and greets him), with reference to verse: 33:56
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: idolfree1 on August 15, 2006, 05:57:03 AM
Peace be upon all of you,

I agree with Magi and Edip that the way to show respect is to be serious about following the very same message they all brought to "awaken" the One God within us all.

As Samia correctly asked, "Who are His servants that He has selected"? The answer is anyone who selects to manifest the God's attributes through programming thier Spirit(nafs) to do so. This can and should be all of us, so Peace be upon us all.

Lastly, it is interesting to note those who put (PBUH) behind the word "muhammadun", but leave Allah by itself. There is no need for any of those additions.

Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Samia on August 15, 2006, 06:19:35 AM
Quote
Lastly, it is interesting to note those who put (PBUH) behind the word "muhammadun", but leave Allah by itself. There is no need for any of those additions.


ُExactly!! Maybe you also experienced saying, for example: Allah commands or says so and so, no one will say anything. The moment you say Mohammad or the messenger/prophet said so and so, everyone would interrupt you with "salla allahu 3alaihi wa sallam"; and that's everytime you mention him!!
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: idolfree1 on August 15, 2006, 06:25:36 AM
Peace be upon you Samia,

Quote
ُExactly!! Maybe you also experienced saying, for example: Allah commands or says so and so, no one will say anything. The moment you say Mohammad or the messenger/prophet said so and so, everyone would interrupt you with "salla allahu 3alaihi wa sallam"; and that's everytime you mention him!!

Absolutely. And when you point this out to those who do that, they will correct themselves by adding (SWT) after Allah for a few moments rather than stop saying words after Muhammad, them if you catch them next week, they will be right back to it. Its a SUBCONSCIOUS thing, which is why they go right back to it. We must REPROGRAM our spirits to manifest the proper behavior through the process of "salaat".

Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 15, 2006, 07:20:08 AM
Lastly, it is interesting to note those who put (PBUH) behind the word "muhammadun", but leave Allah by itself.

Idol, why would you need to wish peace upon the source of peace? Your logic does not seems to make sense. Please explain further.

Samia, please be mindful that there is a fine line of Discrimination here that appears to be crossed. The word Discrimination seems to be been popping up in this subject as in Edip's point of view which you agree with. The sense of generalization in your words towards traditionalists is somewhat discriminatory by itself.

Discrimination - Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

peace.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Samia on August 15, 2006, 07:31:20 AM
Quote
The sense of generalization in your words towards traditionalists is somewhat discriminatory by itself.

OK. I will rephrase:

The problem with many traditionlists (although I personally never met or heard any of them who does not fit what I am going to say) is that they do not bother to put a title before any prophet except before prophet Mohammad (a must) and Jesus (you may not). Even in this case, it is still considered blasphemic to say: Mohammad pbuh (in Arabic: 3alaihis-salaam) because this is reserved for Jesus only. The Arabic "title of respect" for prophet Mohammad is (in transliteration): Salla allahu 3alaihi wa sallam (Allah prays upon him and greets him), with reference to verse: 33:56
Posted on: August 14, 2006, 07:51:15 PMPosted by: M


Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: idolfree1 on August 15, 2006, 07:55:07 AM
Peace be upon you M Mehdi,

Quote
Lastly, it is interesting to note those who put (PBUH) behind the word "muhammadun", but leave Allah by itself.

Idol, why would you need to wish peace upon the source of peace? Your logic does not seems to make sense. Please explain further.

The point I was making is that sectarians are taught to say (pbuh) after Muhammad and (SWT) after Allah. But most often you dont see the (SWT), but always the (PBUH). I used to point this out to people in the very forum, and they would adress it by adding (SWT) after Allah for a few posts, but then fall back into thier "programming" after a day, if not sooner.

I hope that clarifies my point.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: Zara on August 16, 2006, 03:29:29 AM
Thanks for the replies.  I am reaching a much clearer understanding of this issue.

I see nothing wrong with using  "peace be upon him"  occassionally but it is not an absolute requirement  after every mention of a prophets name. 

Peace
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: idolfree1 on August 16, 2006, 08:31:55 AM
Peace be upon you Zara,

What would be the REASON for saying "peace be upon you" after saying a prophets name, only sometimes? Is it out of fear that you should be doing it? Thats what you have to ask yourself. In any case, there is no compulsion and your decision is respected.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 16, 2006, 10:30:50 AM
What would be the REASON for saying "peace be upon you" after saying a prophets name, only sometimes? Is it out of fear that you should be doing it? Thats what you have to ask yourself. In any case, there is no compulsion and your decision is respected.

salam Idolfree1,

This morning I logged onto the board and saw your reply back to me, thank you. I decided not to continue on this thread since Zara's question was answered for her. I felt no more reason to continue on this discussion. Since I see your wish to continue to push your agenda, I will proceed. :)

Quote
The point I was making is that sectarians are taught to say (pbuh) after Muhammad and (SWT) after Allah. But most often you dont see the (SWT), but always the (PBUH). I used to point this out to people in the very forum, and they would adress it by adding (SWT) after Allah for a few posts, but then fall back into thier "programming" after a day, if not sooner.

This again does not make much sense here brother, because if in fact you wish others to stop the practice of uttering such sayings after the name of a Prophet or Allah, then why would you remind another to continue?

Quote
Is it out of fear that you should be doing it? Thats what you have to ask yourself.

Why would it have to be out of fear that one would say," Muhammad(pboh)"? I would have taken your question to be sincere question to find out where Zara is coming from, however you added, "Thats what you have to ask yourself." Isn't this a bit presumptuous? It appears to say more of your mind set, than of the subject at hand.

peace.


Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: amanda on August 16, 2006, 11:59:39 AM
salam alaykum wr wb

i do not agree with edip in the fact that each time the quran says "say" we are supposed to recite it

the say: distinguishes what Muhamamd was told to say this is what i have concluded

and the other verses perhaps are the Scripture..

there is Quran and Scripture inside the book called "The Message"

this is why some sunnis think the verse about the Scripture and the Wisdom..they think it refers to the Quran and the Hadeeth which in fact the Quran states that the quran is clearly "marked"

and some verses from the previous generations that were revealed have been clarified form my knowledge

so if someone says "say" this is what God commanded Muhamamd to say in my humblest of views not what we are commanded to say

27:59.   Say: ?Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected.? Is God better, or that which you set up?

Although a Prophet is a Servant of Allah I would tend to say servants and prophets would be on different levels my guess since anyone who submits can be a servant right? but just becasue your a servant doesnt mean you can be a prophet.....

if it is permisible for a Prophet to say somehting then why would it not be allowed for us?

any feedback is appreciated

AManda


Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: idolfree1 on August 16, 2006, 12:34:05 PM
Peace be upon you M Mehdi,


Quote
IF1:
The point I was making is that sectarians are taught to say (pbuh) after Muhammad and (SWT) after Allah. But most often you dont see the (SWT), but always the (PBUH). I used to point this out to people in the very forum, and they would adress it by adding (SWT) after Allah for a few posts, but then fall back into thier "programming" after a day, if not sooner.

MM:
This again does not make much sense here brother, because if in fact you wish others to stop the practice of uttering such sayings after the name of a Prophet or Allah, then why would you remind another to continue?

Where did I say I reminded someone to continue?  :) I said I pointed out to them how they were INCONSISTENT in what they decided to do. But instead of them seeing the underlying idolization (that I once had as well) and refrainig from adding PBUH, they choose to ad SWT behind Allah. But the proof of the imitated idolization is that after a while, they go right back to only doing it after Muhammad.

Quote
Quote
Is it out of fear that you should be doing it? Thats what you have to ask yourself.

Why would it have to be out of fear that one would say," Muhammad(pboh)"?

Because sects are run off of fear, fear of eternal hellfire for not blindly believing in seas being split, sticks turning into snakes, giant ark's filled with animals, and saying PBUH after Muhammad.

Quote
I would have taken your question to be sincere question to find out where Zara is coming from

It was sincere for Zara.

Quote
however you added, "Thats what you have to ask yourself." Isn't this a bit presumptuous? It appears to say more of your mind set, than of the subject at hand.


Yes, that is what I had to ask myself and based on life experience, I urge her to do the same. But as I also stated which you have not taken the time to also add is that there is no compulsion and her decision is respected.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 16, 2006, 02:01:37 PM
peace be on you Idolfree1,

Where did I say I reminded someone to continue?  :) I said I pointed out to them how they were INCONSISTENT in what they decided to do. But instead of them seeing the underlying idolization (that I once had as well) and refrainig from adding PBUH, they choose to ad SWT behind Allah. But the proof of the imitated idolization is that after a while, they go right back to only doing it after Muhammad.

Because sects are run off of fear, fear of eternal hellfire for not blindly believing in seas being split, sticks turning into snakes, giant ark's filled with animals, and saying PBUH after Muhammad.

Thank you for making more clear about your observations. Your observations appear to be very much like the observations of brother Edip. This raises in me the curiosity. Although the behaviour you both present is true by your observation, one cannot deny that the examples which you both bring forth, are only a portion of the whole. If one takes into account the Universal Message of our Deen, we can understand that there is much more to the society of Believers than just reformists and traditionalists. Therefore again, it's understandable the observations which you bring forth, but not completely acceptable.

It was sincere for Zara.

Good to hear.

Yes, that is what I had to ask myself and based on life experience, I urge her to do the same. But as I also stated which you have not taken the time to also add is that there is no compulsion and her decision is respected.

Yes brother, I did leave that out and it was with intent. I believe your comment about compulsion with a sense of approval and therefore respect of someone elses decisions was even more presumptuous than the question you presented, given the whole of the comment. I only meant to hide it and focuse more on the subject at hand. So please do not take offense in this matter.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: idolfree1 on August 17, 2006, 05:37:28 AM
Peace be upon you M Mehdi,

I am not quite sure I understand your response, but the points have been made so we can bring this to a close. Any other question I would ask you would be of a different topic not for this thread, such as the curiosity that has been raised for you, etc.
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 17, 2006, 08:05:59 AM
Peace be upon you Idolfree1,

As you wish brother. Please feel free to start a new thread if you like in hopes for understanding. (insha_Allah) :)
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: lovelymoslems on August 17, 2006, 08:13:03 AM
ُExactly!! Maybe you also experienced saying, for example: Allah commands or says so and so, no one will say anything. The moment you say Mohammad or the messenger/prophet said so and so, everyone would interrupt you with "salla allahu 3alaihi wa sallam"; and that's everytime you mention him!!
We use to respect traditions, habits. dogmas that not in Al Quran. Conjecture become a habit whreby according to Allah no distinguish between prophets just even in calling  of their names. We have to respect all prophets similarly because they were sent by Allah,  with similar task and obligation i.e. establish the deen ! (QS.42/13) If you call Muhammad by SAW then Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and others by AS, you mean to underscore them inferior to Muhammad. The real conjecture !!!
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 17, 2006, 08:38:22 AM
We use to respect traditions, habits.

Peace,

Who are you refering to when you say "We" in your post above?

Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: lovelymoslems on August 18, 2006, 09:29:21 AM
We use to respect traditions, habits.

Peace,

Who are you refering to when you say "We" in your post above?


Men who claim as moslem
Title: Re: Placing pbuh after prophets name
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 18, 2006, 07:42:20 PM
Thank you kindly lovelymoslems for your response. Please let me relay to you that there are Muslims , men and women, as my wife and myself who do not therefore fit your description of "we":

We use to respect traditions, habits. dogmas that not in Al Quran. Conjecture become a habit whreby according to Allah no distinguish between prophets just even in calling  of their names.

It would be conjecture to think we, all Muslims, have come from the same background as Sunni, Shia etc.. traditionalism which as you say "respect traditions, habits, dogmas that not in Al Quran." Please do not let my birth place be the basis of conclusion based on guesswork and please never associate me with a sect, past or prersent.

If one takes into account the Universal Message of our Deen, we can understand that there is much more to the society of Believers than just reformists and traditionalists.

Peace be on you... May Allah guide us all... ameen