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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: mustafa on August 09, 2006, 05:39:42 AM

Title: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: mustafa on August 09, 2006, 05:39:42 AM
In the Name of All?h, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

I am a Muslim by birth and by choice. I am not a person who follows a religion just because "someone" told them, for example close family and relatives like Parents, Grandparents. I am going to use my real name and be truthful to everyone because I am here to gain something, in a proper way. I have been a Sunni by birth. I studied the differences between the Sunni and Shi'a religion and what the other religions have to say about the differences. So far the only decision I have come up with is that I want to be "only" Muslim. That led me to this forum. I have many questions and concerns that I would like to clear up but the main one is about Mr. Rashad Khalifa claiming to be a prophet. I would like for the members to find time to prove to me that I should choose to be a "Submitter", or as be like you all, "a hadith-free muslim".

The Questions:

1. Why should I believe Mr. Rashad Khalifa claims of being a prophet?

My understanding: I will be straight up about this, I don't believe that claim. As a Sunni, we believe in false Prophets (Dajjals). Thinking inside the box, as a Sunni, I will have to put him under that category, if he is doing so using Islam as the religion.

2. According to Mr. Rashad Khalifa's code-19 theory, the following Ayats are not true

9:128 --- Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from amongst yourselves (i.e.
whom you know well). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad
SAW) is anxious over you (to be rightly guided, to repent to All?h, and beg Him to pardon and forgive
your sins, in order that you may enter Paradise and be saved from the punishment of the Hell-fire),
for the believers (he SAW is) full of pity, kind, and merciful.

9:129 --- But if they turn away, say (O Muhammad SAW): "All?h is sufficient for me. L? il?ha illa Huwa (none
has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty
Throne."

(con't) Question 2:  So according to you, the Qur'an has to work because of the mathematical sense and not the logical, everyday, common sense?

My Understanding: As far as I can understand, Allah is telling the people the mentioned things in order for the people to understand that the Prophet is nothing more than a Messenger and Allah is explaining his message. I am aware that progressive Muslims believe in the message  I am not a doctor or a PhD. I am surely not a mathematician. The Qur'an was written down as a guideline for people to use in their everyday life. Islam and the Qur'an didn't come with the number 19, but it came with/through a Prophet. Some Sunni people don't realize the limit of respect that should be given, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be respected at all.

3: From what I know, the message is more important to the free-thinkers rather than the messenger. True, I agree 100%, this theory will put me under the category of free-thinkers. If it's okay to follow the teachings and good-deeds of great and successful people (non-Prophets). We obviously do that because, if they were successful by adapting certain things that they did, we might be able to get success in life as well. Considering that, what's wrong with following our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)? Is it wrong to follow the Hadith (i.e. sayings of the Prophet S.A.W)? Is it wrong according to the progressive Islam?

My understanding: As a practicing Muslim-Sunni (Follower of the Sunnah), I understand that we do so because we Believe that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) will go to heaven and he had a great healthy lifestyle. Since he was the last prophet and we have more information about his life than any other Prophet, and he also delivered the Qur'an, we believe that it would be good for ourselves to follow his everyday life. Don't get the idea that we believe he was the best prophet, etc. According to a Hadith, A Sahaba told Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) that he had argued with a Jew about Prophet Moses (Musa) being better than Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W). Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) said that don't do that because on the day of Judgement, everyone will faint, and as Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) will gain conciousness, Prophet Moses (Musa) will be sitting by Allah's throne, and Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) won't have the knowledge about who gained conciousness first.

Question 4: I was reading the Q & A in the website 19.org just now!!! (link: http://19.org/index.php?id=15,18,0,0,1,0) and I found out that Edip Yuksel left the organization,  (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edip_Yuksel) but he is still a Qur'an Alone Muslim.

My question is Why disagree with the Hadith and not agree with Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W), disrespect him, disgrace him and follow other people (Mr. Rashad Khalifa) instead?

My understanding: Qur'an Alone muslims basic idea is not to believe Hadith and Follow Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) as a prophet. But then again you choose to have a self-proclaimed "educated" prophet (Mr. Rashad Khalifa) who has very few followers and the Book he has "altered" was really written by an Illiterate person who could never read and write all his life (Prophet Muhammad S.A.W) this miracle that could only be done by Allah. Reading the Q&A (link: http://19.org/index.php?id=15,18,0,0,1,0) just made me realize something. But I give the benefit of doubt because one muslim convert once said that he is so lucky he never met muslims before converting, otherwise he wouldn't have done so. But your basic beliefs are from a Prophet and Book that you are denying. I don't mean to be offensive but since I have placed my self in the category of free-thinkers, I can say this religion is not one of the choices that I would like to choose unless someone on this site proves to me otherwise. This is a new religion and the main founders should be nicer and more accepting, instead of disrespecting other religious beliefs. To tell everyone the truth, I haven't found any truth or any reason to believe this "Qur'an Alone" argument. According to a Hadith, before Qayamah (judgement day) everyone will have their own religous beliefs. Free thinkers contradict their own beliefs. If I keep on asking "why?" one day I will be questioning the law. Law is what you worry about more than questioning the religion itself, because that's in the near future, and the after-life doesn't matter anymore. Another Hadith states that before Qayamah, the Qur'an will be taken away from the Earth and people's hearts. Thanks for contributing to the two signs of the Judgement day. You have given muslims the right to freely change the religion and soon the law will be changed in your own minds because that's what your thinking allows you to do.

My First CONCLUSION: I am a free-thinker, but I don't take it to an excessive level. I realize that I don't choose what's best for me, Allah does. I allow the government to choose my rights and law, and I worry about the cops catching me for speeding, instead of opposing them, I accept my mistake and agree to pay (if needed). I don't take a copy of the constitutional rights and distribute it all over to get supporters and prove my point, which was never there. If I do so, I just changed it for my needs, so I can simply go and freely drive my car as fast as I want. But then after an accident, I will realize my mistake. Changing two Ayats and being an unbeliever of the Hadith is absolutely done for a pointless reason. Why can't I tell you why? because I can't judge someone's action, I am not God. Yes, I am a free-thinker but I know my limits, and "Qur'an Alone" is not the way for me.

Shi'a and Sunni religions make up for the 95% of the muslim population, and there numbers are growing world wide, Mash'allah.

My Final Question: WHY?

My Understanding: Ethics, Respect and the real Qur'an and Prophets are still present as a part of the basic foundation of the religion. There are no contradictions in the religion itself. One thing that needs to be clear about this is the fact that I am talking about the scripture and the real religion instead of the actions and behaviour of the followers. The conflict remains on the Khalifahs and some other minor subjects, that I will study and try to come up with a conclusion.

However MY FINAL CONCLUSION for this religion: There is probably a 0.5% chance for me to accept this religion, now. I am a Free-thinking, Sunni(follower of the sunnah) and a Shi'a (follower) Muslim. I have taken out some teachings followed by the sub-religions because they do not follow the Qur'an. As Far as Qur'an Alone is concerned, I am Sorry, but I cannot agree with the teachings given by Mr. Rashad Kalifah. He realized himself that he will need people to promote his new "product" so he became a self-proclaimed prophet. Contradiction is not found in Islam, this is not Islam. You cannot buy a product that you have no knowledge of, without it's instructions, so he became a prophet. He is right, I agree, therefore "Qur'an Alone" is a flop and not Islam because Qur'an Alone, isn't even Qur'an "Alone", it's coming with other false-prophets and mathematical teachings. This religion falls under the Wahabi and Free-Thinkers category, the people who don't believe in God at all.

Choose to be complete non-muslim free-thinkers for your beliefs to make sense

As an average free-thinking, muslim,  I have crossed "Qur'an Alone" out as a choice for my religion, only in a couple of hours. It was great, and a nice experience, I learned a couple of good things that I would like to share as I depart from this site. I will be visiting frequently for the replies.

1. While being greatly successful and educated, one should not think of him/herself as a superior person, compared to others because one day that person might choose to be better than Prophets, Holy Books, and a really excessive limit would be being beter than God.

2. After learning about your religion, my appreciation about Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W) has been greatly increased. His Hadith have helped me to be a great person, with a nice, humble personality, with little or no negative thoughts or emotion.

3. As a free-thinker, you have a right to say whatever you want, whenever you want. You can absolutely trash the other person and his/her religion without a problem. There is no respect what-so-ever. It's mostly complaining, pointing fingers, disgracing, disrespecting others and being a complete ego-maniac. I have had friends from other non-accepted, so-called muslim religions. They backbite, and think of themselves as better people, and think it's okay. They have a bad thing to say about everyone except those who they are close with. If things don't go their way, they choose to trash the other person and their religion, but when it comes to their own religion or themselves (mostly retaliation against them), they are sensitive and they cannot handle it. They think and act like they are better than someone, and try to prove it. They are supposed to be innocent and the complaining victims after all of their behaviour. I am being Stereotypical? you really think so, try it. I can assure you that your free-thinker approach that I am using (stating an opinion and my understanding), will simply get replies of pure garbage instead of the educated and logical approach that this religion has advertised.

Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) said that the words he preaches aren't his own words, but are actually words sent to him by Allah.

The angels were delivering messages from Allah to the Messenger. The Hadith and Sunnah weren't pointless, Allah Knows Best!

If you really love your approach, just choose to be complete non-muslim free-thinkers for your beliefs to make sense!

Salaam!
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: Alen on August 09, 2006, 07:00:38 AM
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.

Welcome to the forum, Mustafa.
I hope we can stay in touch and on this forum, you will see and read why we follow Qur'an alone, why we reject the hadith and sunna, WITHOUT arguing or callin names.

May The Almighty Allah The most Powerful protect us all and rewards us all with Heaven.
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: andy on August 09, 2006, 07:12:58 AM
Salaam brother Mustafa,

From you post, IMHO, you are not fully aware of what is going on here.

Quote from: mustafa
1. Why should I believe Mr. Rashad Khalifa claims of being a prophet?
Did he claim to be a prophet? As far as I know he did not claim it. Please CMIIW.

Quote
2. According to Mr. Rashad Khalifa's code-19 theory, the following Ayats are not true
I believe 9:128-129 are the revelations of Allah.

The enemies of the prophet have tried to tamper with quran. They fabricate LIES and attributed them to the prophet.

Shahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:

    Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

    Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

    'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)


However, those enemies of the prophet failed.

Quote
3: From what I know, the message is more important to the free-thinkers rather than the messenger. True, I agree 100%, this theory will put me under the category of free-thinkers. If it's okay to follow the teachings and good-deeds of great and successful people (non-Prophets). We obviously do that because, if they were successful by adapting certain things that they did, we might be able to get success in life as well. Considering that, what's wrong with following our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)? Is it wrong to follow the Hadith (i.e. sayings of the Prophet S.A.W)? Is it wrong according to the progressive Islam?
Brother Mustafa, the thing you must always bear in mind when talking about hadiths is they are not the sayings of the prophet. They are the saying of people three centuries after the prophet regarding the prophet which were collected by hadith compilers.

Shahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195:

    Narrated Jabir:

    A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to the Prophet while he was in the mosque and said, "I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face to the other side. The man turned towards the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and gave four witnesses against himself. On that the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" (He added), "Are you married?" The man said, 'Yes." On that the Prophet ordered him to be stoned to the death in the Musalla (a praying place). When the stones hit him with their sharp edges and he fled, but he was caught at Al-Harra and then killed


Did the prophet order stoning? What is wrong with following "the saying of the prophet"?

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Question 4: I was reading the Q & A in the website 19.org just now!!! (link: http://19.org/index.php?id=15,18,0,0,1,0) and I found out that Edip Yuksel left the organization,  (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edip_Yuksel) but he is still a Qur'an Alone Muslim.

My question is Why disagree with the Hadith and not agree with Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W), disrespect him, disgrace him and follow other people (Mr. Rashad Khalifa) instead?
Please read more bro. As I said, IMHO you are not fully aware what is really going on here. As a starting point, maybe you can start with code 19 section. Please also read the debate between Edip Yuksel and Ayman to get the general idea of what is going on.

Quote
Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) said that the words he preaches aren't his own words, but are actually words sent to him by Allah.
I was also taught that way until I read "what the prophet preached":

Shahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:

    Narrated Abu Qilaba:

    Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle ."


I believe Allah does NOT teach us through His prophet to brand eyes with heated pieces of iron. Do you believe Allah DOES?


Please don't take my post as offense. I hope we can learn together here insha Allah.


Wassalam,
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: Wakas on August 09, 2006, 07:23:56 AM
Mustafa,

Its no wonder you rejected "Quran alone" after only a "few hours" and think it doesn't make sense. You came to hasty conclusions with your views based on extremely poor research, outright falsities and assumptions. Your information is lacking in some simple observations/facts:

1) Hardly anyone here believes Rashad Khalifa was a divine prophet. In fact, I only know of maybe one or two.

2) Hardly anyone here believes in code-19, or thinks there are false verses in 'al quran'.

3) Rashad Khalifa was not the 1st person to come up with "Quran Alone" and reject hadith. I strongly recommend you do some actual research. Read about "al kalam" for example, or read this link (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm).

4) No-one here disrespects the messenger who delivered 'al quran'. One could only argue they disrespect the alledged sayings of Muhammad. There is a BIG difference. If you cannot appreciate that simple distinction, that is your problem. Do you also take the Gospels of Jesus as Jesus's sayings?

5) Majority means nothing [12:106, 6:116], as stated explicitly by 'al quran'. Do you accept what God says or not? There are more Christians than Muslims, does that make their religion more right than Sunnis/Shias?

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Contradiction is not found in Islam

I'm very glad you said this. Continue your studies and keep your above statement in mind.

Lastly, please do some thorough reseach AND take your time. Do not rush into conclusions otherwise you'll end up missing some basic points, such as the ones I listed.


Wakas


Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: mquran on August 09, 2006, 08:14:52 AM
Salaamun alaikum Mustafa,

Quote
I am a Muslim by birth and by choice. I am not a person who follows a religion just because "someone" told them, for example close family and relatives like Parents, Grandparents. I am going to use my real name and be truthful to everyone because I am here to gain something, in a proper way. I have been a Sunni by birth. I studied the differences between the Sunni and Shi'a religion and what the other religions have to say about the differences. So far the only decision I have come up with is that I want to be "only" Muslim. That led me to this forum. I have many questions and concerns that I would like to clear up but the main one is about Mr. Rashad Khalifa claiming to be a prophet. I would like for the members to find time to prove to me that I should choose to be a "Submitter", or as be like you all, "a hadith-free muslim".


I don't follow Mr Rashad Khalifa, I follow only Al-Quraan (AQ) as my source of absolute information. A 'hadith-free muslim' is a redundant term. A muslim's criteria has nothing to do with sources of information.


Quote
1. Why should I believe Mr. Rashad Khalifa claims of being a prophet?

You shouldn't. I don't.

Quote
2:  So according to you, the Qur'an has to work because of the mathematical sense and not the logical, everyday, common sense?


AQ works because its a constant mapping of the signs on the horizon and in yourself (41/53). The 'mathematical sense' has no sense to me.

Quote
3: From what I know, the message is more important to the free-thinkers rather than the messenger. True, I agree 100%, this theory will put me under the category of free-thinkers. If it's okay to follow the teachings and good-deeds of great and successful people (non-Prophets). We obviously do that because, if they were successful by adapting certain things that they did, we might be able to get success in life as well. Considering that, what's wrong with following our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)? Is it wrong to follow the Hadith (i.e. sayings of the Prophet S.A.W)? Is it wrong according to the progressive Islam?



Good point. So judge what you read according to merit. Let AQ provide your permanent, unchanging source of information and whatever else you read provide your temporal source.


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My Final Question: WHY?

I've asked myself that before. After all, leaving a socio-historical grouping like the muslims can be momentous. But leaving them, I have rejoined humanity AND allowed AQ to operate how its meant to operate. Reading AQ on its own terms is like diving into an ocean of knowledge, pardon my platitude. I ask you sir to give AQ a chance to speak for itself without Rashad before you decide.

Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: M_Mehdi on August 09, 2006, 09:22:05 AM
I want to be "only" Muslim.

salam,

By will of Allah, then just be Muslim brother. Sunni, Shia, Quran alone, etc. are terms that have little value. Please never associate me (and I pray yourself) with any sects. No worries, I also do not believe Mr. Rashad Khalifa claims of being a prophet.

peace.
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: mustafa on August 09, 2006, 08:41:34 PM
Thanx A lot for your civilized replies, instead of condemning me, you are trying to help me, and I appreciate it. You guys are right that little knowledge can be dangerous, but I am mostly interested in the Fundamentals of your religion.

I am aware of all the hadith's narrations that are done by people like Abu Haraira, who travelled over most of Arabia, and the accounts are from the people that knew Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and witnessed it with their own eyes.

I agree that the Sunni/Shi'a religion's main conflict is because of the Caliphs, which has nothing to do with the religion. *Islam was complete during Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) time, he was the last prophet*. The Caliphs were the administration and the Sahaba.

I understand that religion is just a belief. And all of the people that are here are just the people who always asked "why?" and sometimes just answered to ourselves, don't ask too many questions about your religion. But we all wanted to know, Why should we choose Islam?

Maybe because we were different than the average muslim, we did so. Therefore, I decided that there's a chance for me to choose this Qur'an Alone approach!

BUT... it worries me to find out that they have removed two of the Ayat from the Qur'an, which cannot be done since *Islam was complete during Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) time, he was the last prophet*. To tamper with the Holy Qur'an basically means you are claiming to be a prophet.

There are three types of Hadith mentioned in Sahih Al-Bukhari and another book. I classify them as instructions, sayings, and historical events.

Now the Few Confusions that I am left with because of the replies are:

1. Andy, I want to clear up a couple of things. As far as I know, "Qur'an Alone" doesn't accept and believe in the Hadith or the Sunnah. What does that mean? your action to remove the two ayat, in your version of the Holy Book, should not even take place since you don't believe in the Hadith. That point is clear, 100%, no argument there. You can tell me other factors, like Mr. Rashad Khalifa or whoever chose to do it because of code-19. Like you guys said, and according to my understanding, he isn't a prophet so he can't change the Holy Qur'an. Therefore, that point still needs to be clear. Hadith two: I still believe that according to Islamic Law, the punishment for adultry is to be stoned to death.

My questions to you are 1)who is the authority of your Islamic Law? 2)does everyone interpret it their own way or 3)actually follow from Imams? 4) or do you pick and choose between the Imam's teachings? 5) or you don't worry too much about certain things and leave some laws alone because you are unsure?

Andy, Sorry man, but you have failed to prove to me why I should use Qur'an Alone as my choice. HOWEVER, the other two hadith that you have posted have proved another point, meaning that ALL Hadith should not be followed. Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) used to do Tawaaf around the Kaaba in slippers sometimes because the Kaafirs would throw sharp objects on the floor. If you follow that now, it's won't make any sense.

Well all that leads to a conclusion that I have always wanted, but now I will be happy in choosing it. But I will state that after clearing up some other stuff.

Confusion 2: Wakas, In the points 1,2 & 3, we are on the same page. However in point 3, you are correct, mostly all of the muslims have rejected MANY hadith, and not only Rashad Khalifa chose Qur'an Alone.

Sorry but the link you sent me wasn't something I would have any interest in. Daniel Brown is a great Islamic scholar and teacher, which is great, but the problem is that he isn't muslim. If he studied so much about Islam and he hasn't chosen that as his religion, there, a problem arises. So I would like to stick to the Hadith and the Qur'an instead of adding books written by a Christian, Islamic Scholar to the discussion.

4) You are right but at http://www.19.org has competitions for Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)'s cartoons, astagfirullah. I cannot look at it as anything but disrespect. But www.19.org doesn't concern you, since you don't believe in code-19, but since you are speaking on the behalf of others...Therefore, I come to this belief,  "Contradiction is not found in Islam".

You are contradicting the beliefs of your fellow progressive muslims, and like what I said for Andy, the contradiction is taking place in your basic beliefs, like the stuff I said about Mr. Rashad Khalifa and false prophethood claims.The stuff that the Hadith states, which contradicts with the Holy Qur'an; I don't accept the Hadith or believe them in that case. You helped me to reach to the same conclusion Andy did. Thanks A LOT!

5) This is where we are not on the same page, I didn't say majority is correct etc. I meant to say that you are making your own religion complicated by adding the code-19 to it, and the people will have to witness it by themselves instead of believing you. But that doesn't concern you, therefore you are not a "Qur'an Alone" muslim, you are just a plain and simple muslim, like you are supposed to be, that has chosen to study from a different translation. Your beliefs are similar to mine, however your beliefs are not similar to the Qur'an Alone foundation or your fellow progressive muslims, and you are speaking on their behalf, meaning that you are creating your own religion in some way.

3. Mquran, your post was also a great help, thanks a lot. I quote what you have written: " After all, leaving a socio-historical grouping like the muslims can be momentous. But leaving them, I have rejoined humanity AND ..." After the "AND" there is a problem.

And M-mehdi, thanks for the support, you are absolutely correct and I choose to do that.

MY CONCLUSION: Qur'an Alone is the truth, but "Qur'an Alone" as a religion isn't. You all seem to be like me, disagreeing with the Sunni and Shi'a beliefs of having sects in Islam, you wanted to leave, just like me, but instead you have ended up in a wrong place. Removing the Ayat and all is a problem itself. Leaving a Sect, you have joined another sect for no reason at all. Contradicting your beliefs, and that doesn't take place in Islam. If you want to leave the groups, don't join another, be an independent muslim. If you are independent, and you choose to have a Prophet as your leader, why let others decide for you, once again, you haven't gained anything, but actually lost your old sect and now you have lost your belief. There are Hadith that are categorized as the ones that can be recognized with the Holy Qur'an. The other two types are the ones that are actual Historical Events and the other ones cannot be recognized with history or the Qur'an.

Therefore I choose to be a muslim that will read the Real Holy Qur'an and if I cannot understand something, I will read an authentic Tafseer, even though the Tafseer are just the historical significance of the Ayat, it would be good for me to find out why, just for extra knowledge, even though there is no need.

Two Main Fundamentals you all need to have is to be polite and harmless to others by any means AND to pray 5 times a day. If those fundamentals are present, there won't be a problem on Qayamah. The sunnah that I will follow will be for my own good, not for the blessings. There are two ways of doing things, a proper way and an improper way. Some hadith just tell us the proper way, it's up to the person to decide which one is good for you, therefore you cannot cancel out all the hadith because you cannot accept a couple. It's just for you to decide which one you will choose in your lifestyle which one you won't, but the same cannot be done for the Qur'an.

Thanks for everything my brothers. I will stick to the original Muslim beliefs and I will consider the Caliph just as the historical administrators and sahaba of Islam. Nothing more, nothing less! They just contributed towards the Muslims, not to the faith itself. The Hadith is our choice but the Qur'an isn't. Qur'an Alone can never be possible, that's why a Prophet was sent along with it, that's why you guys had a code-19 theory to go along with the reason for it to take place.   

Please post your replies and opinions!

Salaam

Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: TheNabi on August 09, 2006, 09:48:50 PM
Peace

#1- I think you're making a mistake to categorize 'Quran Alone' as being the same as 'Christianity', 'Hinduism' or 'Santana Dharma', 'Sunni', etc. I do not believe it is a title at all. If you ask me if I followed a religion and to name it, I would not say 'Quran Alone'. This statement, 'Quran Alone', is basically a short summary for the type of following I adhere to. I choose to look to the quran alone for the guidance God gives. It is a primary source to which other sources come in as secondary so long as they do not contradict this primary one.

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Why should I believe Mr. Rashad Khalifa claims of being a prophet?

Free-Minds.org is not Submission.org. Take a look at the 2 sites. This site does not promote the idea that Rashad is a messenger of God.

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The Hadith and Sunnah weren't pointless, Allah Knows Best!

They may not necessarily be pointless at all. The words [hadeeth/sunnah] are never used in the quran to refer to the hadeeth and sunnah in the context of the religion of the Sunni's.

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If you really love your approach, just choose to be complete non-muslim free-thinkers for your beliefs to make sense!

You see, you drop off your message with a subtle and insulting remark. Take care with how you write lest your motives be found out too soon beforehand.

Joe
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: mquran on August 10, 2006, 12:46:16 AM
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Thanx A lot for your civilized replies, instead of condemning me, you are trying to help me, and I appreciate it. You guys are right that little knowledge can be dangerous, but I am mostly interested in the Fundamentals of your religion.

Well you're not going to find AQ going 'chapter 1 : fundamentals of your religion'. AQ must be taken holistically. There are a few ayat which implies fundamentals of ad-deen:

1. 107/1-3 : People who belie ad-deen are those who turn away the orphans and refuse to feed the poor.

2. 2/62 : Those who believe in Allah and the last day, on them shall be no fear nor grief.


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I am aware of all the hadith's narrations that are done by people like Abu Haraira, who travelled over most of Arabia, and the accounts are from the people that knew Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and witnessed it with their own eyes.

That's the claim yes, but is it Quranically verifiable. 9/101 tells us that The Prophet never knew who the hypocrites were.


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I understand that religion is just a belief. And all of the people that are here are just the people who always asked "why?" and sometimes just answered to ourselves, don't ask too many questions about your religion. But we all wanted to know, Why should we choose Islam?


You're a brave person for asking. I salute you for it. As for those who do not ask, Allah will ask them (17/36).


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Maybe because we were different than the average muslim, we did so. Therefore, I decided that there's a chance for me to choose this Qur'an Alone approach!

Sir, there's no such thing as 'the average muslim'. You're either a muslim (by serving God's laws) or you're not.



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3. Mquran, your post was also a great help, thanks a lot. I quote what you have written: " After all, leaving a socio-historical grouping like the muslims can be momentous. But leaving them, I have rejoined humanity AND ..." After the "AND" there is a problem.


After the 'and', I wrote 'allowed AQ to operate how its meant to operate. Reading AQ on its own terms is like diving into an ocean of knowledge, pardon my platitude. I ask you sir to give AQ a chance to speak for itself without Rashad before you decide.

Mustafa, you seem to be a sincere fellow about ad-deen, so why would you have a problem with this? AQ is the most underemphasised source in the 'Islamic' faith, having being turned into a songbook. The few brave Muslim scholars who have dared to explore AQ on its own (like Maududi, Islahi, Muhammad Al-Ghazali) have been severly shackled due to sunnah constraints when imposing meaning on words.

My suggestion : Go to www.the-quran.org . See the lecture on 'What AQ says about Allah and Aaliha'. You will then see how immediate AQ is to our lives.


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MY CONCLUSION: Qur'an Alone is the truth, but "Qur'an Alone" as a religion isn't. You all seem to be like me, disagreeing with the Sunni and Shi'a beliefs of having sects in Islam, you wanted to leave, just like me, but instead you have ended up in a wrong place. Removing the Ayat and all is a problem itself.

2 things:

1. I'm not a 19er and have never been one.

2. I didn't leave because I was fed up of sectarianism. I never had a problem with that because I believe that the Islam I followed was complete. What compelled me to leave was the collapsibility of 'Islam' when challenged by the mechanism of internal contradiction and the fact that AQ proposes a whole other religion than what Muslims practise.


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Leaving a Sect, you have joined another sect for no reason at all.


Once again, wrong. I am now part of humanity with only one qualification. Bad Guys aren't welcome.

I no longer say 'ah , salaam brother' to every guy named Mohamed or girl named Fatima. I say 'salaam' to EVERYONE unless he's blatantly attacking me.

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Contradicting your beliefs, and that doesn't take place in Islam. If you want to leave the groups, don't join another, be an independent muslim. If you are independent, and you choose to have a Prophet as your leader, why let others decide for you, once again, you haven't gained anything, but actually lost your old sect and now you have lost your belief. There are Hadith that are categorized as the ones that can be recognized with the Holy Qur'an. The other two types are the ones that are actual Historical Events and the other ones cannot be recognized with history or the Qur'an.


There comes a point when hadith, sects and recognition is no longer an issue. What's important is : Am I A Good Guy ? Do I Strive HARD against At-Taghoot. These are things which will save you from hell.
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: andy on August 10, 2006, 01:26:20 AM
Salaam mustafa,
Thanx A lot for your civilized replies, instead of condemning me, you are trying to help me, and I appreciate it. You guys are right that little knowledge can be dangerous, but I am mostly interested in the Fundamentals of your religion.

I am aware of all the hadith's narrations that are done by people like Abu Haraira, who travelled over most of Arabia, and the accounts are from the people that knew Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and witnessed it with their own eyes.
Shahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 121:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    I have memorized two kinds of knowledge from Allah's Apostle . I have propagated one of them to you and if I propagated the second, then my pharynx (throat) would be cut (i.e. killed).


Abu Huraira is reported to conceal the truth. What do you think mustafa?

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There are three types of Hadith mentioned in Sahih Al-Bukhari and another book. I classify them as instructions, sayings, and historical events.
I think your classification has not covered all types. Below is an example of hadith which does not fit your classification (hint: read the content!):

Shahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371:

    Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

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Now the Few Confusions that I am left with because of the replies are:

1. Andy, I want to clear up a couple of things. As far as I know, "Qur'an Alone" doesn't accept and believe in the Hadith or the Sunnah. What does that mean?

To be more precise, I would say: unlike sunni and shia, "quran alone" does not accept the DIVINITY of hadith books.

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your action to remove the two ayat, in your version of the Holy Book, should not even take place since you don't believe in the Hadith. That point is clear, 100%, no argument there.

This one is not for me to response since I don't remove any verse in quran.

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You can tell me other factors, like Mr. Rashad Khalifa or whoever chose to do it because of code-19. Like you guys said, and according to my understanding, he isn't a prophet so he can't change the Holy Qur'an. Therefore, that point still needs to be clear. Hadith two: I still believe that according to Islamic Law, the punishment for adultry is to be stoned to death.
Actually, this stoning is similar with REMOVAL attempt of quranic verses. Only this time it is ADDITION attempt to quranic verses.

Shahih Malik Muwatta Book 41, Number 41.1.8:

    Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud that Abdullah ibn Abbas said, "I heard Umar ibn al-Khattab say, 'Stoning is in the Book of Allah for those who commit adultery, men or women when they are muhsan and when there is clear proof of pregnancy or a confession.' "


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My questions to you are 1)who is the authority of your Islamic Law? 2)does everyone interpret it their own way or 3)actually follow from Imams? 4) or do you pick and choose between the Imam's teachings? 5) or you don't worry too much about certain things and leave some laws alone because you are unsure?
1 => The authority is Allah (6:114)
2 => Allah is the Teacher of quran and the students are not necessarily on the same level of understanding (75:16-19)
3 & 4 => Depends on the verification (17:36)
5 => Leaving laws never authorized by Allah is commanded, otherwise we are setting up partners with Him (42:21)

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Andy, Sorry man, but you have failed to prove to me why I should use Qur'an Alone as my choice.

Mustafa, as I said, I am here to learn together and not to guide anyone. It is Allah alone who can guide and He guides whom He wills.

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HOWEVER, the other two hadith that you have posted have proved another point, meaning that ALL Hadith should not be followed. Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) used to do Tawaaf around the Kaaba in slippers sometimes because the Kaafirs would throw sharp objects on the floor. If you follow that now, it's won't make any sense.
That is a good point bro.

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Well all that leads to a conclusion that I have always wanted, but now I will be happy in choosing it. But I will state that after clearing up some other stuff.
If you are sincerely seeking the truth, then you should not set the conclusion first and then do the research. It should be the other way around bro.

2:159 Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them which was clear, and the guidance, after God Had made it clear in the Scripture; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse.

Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: tanveermd on August 10, 2006, 05:36:52 AM
Peace be upon you brother Mustafa,

Welcome to the forum.  :welcome:

First of all please allow me to clarify somethings about myself:

I consider myself a "muslim" i.e. submissive to Allah alone.

I believe that islam does not have ANY sects.

For me, the source of guidance and law is Allah alone.

I do not consider Rashad Khalifa to be a messenger of Allah.

I believe that "code 19" is nothing but a fitna for the disbelievers and do not need any "code 19" to believe in al-qur'aan as Allah's word.

I do not reject any verse of al-qur'aan and do not add any verse to it either and I believe that Allah Himself has preserved the message:

41:42 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.

15:9 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

Now coming to why we should follow al-qur'aan for our guidance:

3:64 Say: "O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common understanding between us and between you; that we do not serve except God, and do not set up anything at all with Him, and that none of us takes each other as patrons beside God." If they turn away, then Say: "Bear witness that we have submitted."

17:46 And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'aan alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.

Following the unverifiable hearsays and rumors and the baseless and fabricated sayings falsely attributed to the messenger and accepting them as the source of law and guidance in addition to Allah's revelations is setting up the authors of those fabricated sayings as partners with Allah and idolizing them which is the highest form of sin and makes one a disbeliever.

3:80 Nor does He order you that you take the Angels and the prophets as patrons. Would He order you to rejection after this, while you have submitted?

9:31 They took their priests and monks to be patrons besides God,..................

42:21 Or do they have partners who decree for them a system which has not been authorized by God? And if it were not for the word already given, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors will have a painful retribution.

6:121 ..............And the devils they inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you have set up partners.


4:48 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.

These idols will not be able to help the misguided people:

46:28 Why then did the idols they set up to bring them closer to God fail to help them? Instead, they abandoned them. Such was their lie, and what they fabricated.

Currently the only book which contains the authentic message of Allah in its entirety is al-qur'aan. According to al-qur'aan, Allah made it complete and detailed and cited every kind of example in it necessary for our guidance and did not neglect anything out of the book. Thus al-qur'aan is enough and we do not need any book other than al-qur'aan for our guidance to the straight path.

According to al-qur'aan, the messenger himself followed only what was revealed by Allah, and judged only by Allah's revelations, and conveyed the message truthfully without adding anything to it from his own desires.

Please see the following link for evidences of the above from al-qur'aan:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5200.0

We should not follow anything other than the truth from Allah:

5:77 Say: "O followers of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system other than the truth, and do not follow the desires of a people who have been misguided before, and they misguide many; and they strayed from the right path."

According to al-qur'aan, we should not follow any hadeeth other than Allah's revelations. Al-qur'aan is the best hadeeth and we should follow only the best. All the true and authentic hadeeth of the messenger are in al-qur'aan itself and we don't need any other book to find them:

39:23 God has sent down the best "hadeeth" (narration), a Scripture that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.

45:6 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which "hadeeth" (narration), after God and His revelations, do they believe?

7:185 Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which "hadeeth" (narrations) after this one will they believe?

68:37 Or do you have another book which you study?
68:38 In it, you can find what you wish?

12:111 In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a "hadeeth" that was invented, but an authentication of what was already revealed and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.


We should follow only the best:

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

We should reject the false, fabricated, and baseless hadeeth:

31:6 And from the people, there are those who accept baseless "hadeeth" (narrations) to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

29:68 Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to God, or denies the truth when it comes to him? Is there not a place in Hell for the rejecters?

How can one follow and obey the messenger ? by following and obeying the message ! What is the message of the messenger ? al-qur'aan, of course ! Thus when we follow and obey al-qur'aan, we are following and obeying the messenger, thereby obeying Allah, and that is what the test is.

Please look at the following links for further reading and discussions relevant to this topic:

http://members.tripod.com/lebou/authorityof.htm
http://free-minds.org/articles.htm#hadith
http://free-minds.org/books.htm
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5257.0

May Allah guide us all to the straight path so that we can serve Him by humbly submitting to Him.

Regards,

Tanveer
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: Elena on August 10, 2006, 06:23:35 AM
Peace Mustafa,

I just wanted to check if it is clear for you now that free minds org and followers of Rashad Khalifa are two different things, because I have seen other people that arrive to the forum and confuse the two.

I didn't when I arrived here, it was very easy to differenciate them. I don't know what's the reason of this repeated confusion.

For the record, I don't follow any religion, in case you are going to catalogue us, the users of the forum, in some way.

A comment regarding the quoted below, backbiting and that almost doesn't happen here, there are very few, I think just three users that spend time insulting and so, the rest is sharing, discussing and learning a lot.

Quote from: mustafa
3. As a free-thinker, you have a right to say whatever you want, whenever you want. You can absolutely trash the other person and his/her religion without a problem. There is no respect what-so-ever. It's mostly complaining, pointing fingers, disgracing, disrespecting others and being a complete ego-maniac. I have had friends from other non-accepted, so-called muslim religions. They backbite, and think of themselves as better people, and think it's okay. They have a bad thing to say about everyone except those who they are close with. If things don't go their way, they choose to trash the other person and their religion, but when it comes to their own religion or themselves (mostly retaliation against them), they are sensitive and they cannot handle it. They think and act like they are better than someone, and try to prove it. They are supposed to be innocent and the complaining victims after all of their behaviour. I am being Stereotypical? you really think so, try it. I can assure you that your free-thinker approach that I am using (stating an opinion and my understanding), will simply get replies of pure garbage instead of the educated and logical approach that this religion has advertised
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: mustafa on August 11, 2006, 01:02:27 AM
Joe, I apologize if I offended you but that wasn't my intention. I am here to learn and so far what I am learning is that almost everyone here has different beliefs. As far as I can understand, you are saying that you are just a Muslim, not Sunni or Shi'a. If you aren't saying that, then I don't think I would like to know because that would mean you have your own beliefs and religion.

Elena, I am confused because I am getting different answers from different people, so for now, I am going to consider mquran as a representative for the beliefs of this site. I won't waste my time getting into Rashad Khalifa's religion because that's a belief that they are strongly committed to. Free-mind people are similar to me, and accepting, therefore a debate for my knowledge can be held.

I always questioned the Hadeeth's authenticity but I don't think anyone has the authority to say if it's false or not. I just pick and choose between the ones that I like. What I want to make clear is the fact that I follow some Hadeeth, not because I think I will get blessings for it. I do it because I feel like it's a better way to live life. Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)'s character, as stated in the Hadith was great, if you think it was fictious or not.

I believe there are three types of Hadeeth.

1) True Historical Events (wars etc.)

2) The Hadith that can be recognized with the Qur'an.

3) Very Old Hadith, non-historic and ones that cannot be recognized with the Qur'an.

I choose to believe in the first two, However, ALL Hadith aren't false or true. Therefore, we can assume that #2 might be truthful, but might have no concern in our lives, just a historical significance behind the specific Qur'anic Ayat. I follow #1 just to live my life in a better way and just for extra knowledge.

mquran, I agree with you 100%. That's what I meant to say, that the things that will save us from hell are basic, not the widespread knowledge of the history. I agree with you, follow the true Islam, be nice to everyone, not only to Muslims. I am sure you and me are following the True Islam, because we are doing the basic things that will save us from the Hell-Fire, Inshallah!

It's not the way you pray or the way you shake hands, its those basic things that we need, but we usually forget because we worry too much about the minor stuff that is usually preached to us. Sunni/Shi'a sects are not found in the Caribbean Islands. The muslims there are just simply muslim. Once I came to a conclusion that they must be Sunni since they don't do Matam. Now when I think about it, it makes me sad that Islam has sects and when you find out if your friend is a muslim, it's not enough. You usually find out if he's Sunni or Shi'a. You are right, we are far away from humanity, Islam is being turned into a political religion with many different sects following human beings instead of the Holy Qur'an.

However, the problem with this site is the fact that everyone here has different beliefs.

Andy, the Hadith you have stated are sayings or historical events which I don't believe in. I agree that the Hadith aren't what Islam was all about, I never had a Hadith book until a couple of years ago. Islam has been made very complicated for whatever reason, but it doesn't concern me. I won't go into too much details about the Hadith etc. because they don't matter or affect my life after death. From what I have read, I follow pnly some Hadith of our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W). What I mean by follow is that I try to adapt certain habits of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)stated in the Hadith. For example, eating manners, hygeine stuff, etc. I agree that the Hadith can be changed but the Qur'an cannot.

mquran, Thanks A Lot!!! for all of your help. You were the only person that actually made sense to me. The first reason is basically the fact that you didn't disrespect the Hadith or try to take apart the Hadith books but instead you told me your part without disrespecting anyone or any book. That for one, was the right way, which is the proper, decent, Islamic way. That's how the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and his companions used to spread Islam, instead of finding mistakes in the Bible, they read out the verses from the Qur'an. As far as I can understand, your approach is that you are not completely denying the Prophet's Hadith.

95% of the muslims (Sunni and Shi'a) believe in the Hadith. Maybe other sects do as well.

I can't agree with anyone of you by denying all the Hadith, because that's my belief and what I think is right as well. I explained to everyone what my idea of the Hadith really is. Picking one or two unlogical Hadith doesn't mean all of them can't be followed BUT, the ones that contradict with the Qur'an shouldn't, ofcourse.

Like I said before, I have come to a conclusion for what my belief should really be, but I will state in a proper and easy format.

1. "La Illaha Il Allah Muhammad Ur Rasool Allah". - I am pretty sure you all are familiar with that.

2. Follow the Qur'an!!!

3. Allah comes first! and then I choose to put Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) as my peaceful and great role model in life.

My Beliefs about the Hadith:

1. The Hadith are there to guide you, they don't concern your life after death or your blessings but if you choose to adapt the ones where you are helping out the community and your land. Also the one where you do stuff for the humanity(not only muslims, ALL HUMANS). For my life to be a discipline and healthy one, I think it's good for me to follow the ones that concern the good and logical hobbies of the Prophet (S.A.W). I choose to live my life under his shadow, you know.

2. Prophets were great, God-Chosen, Heavenly people. They were all equal, like I stated in a post before. We have no right to judge who is better than who. I have no accounts of the lives of any other prophets except Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W). That's why I choose to live the life like he did. I mean you can't say that his great habits  shouldn't be followed because they aren't mentioned in the Qur'an.

3. We all follow habits of some people, like our parents, grandparents, everyone has someone that influences them. I choose to follow the life of a Prophet, like he is my role model, but that doesn't mean I will marry 11 times. I just pick and choose the ones that are suitable for this era and my life. You never know I might get a Nobel Peace Prize if I work for my community or even on a wider scale. Being truthful to everyone, being nice and not hurting anyone emotionally or physically. You can't say that's a bad trait to adapt. I am not only influenced by the Prophet but his Companions/Caliphs as well.

4. Just like you can't say the ENTIRE Bible isn't the word of God, you can't say that ALL the Hadith are useless. But then again I don't follow the life of Prophet Jesus (Issa), but that's my choice, not that I am sinful because of it, its just because I choose to.

Sorry, but some of the posts I have read seem to me like you guys have something against the Hadith or the Prophet. I don't understand why there's a problem in choosing even one hadith for your life, not to gain blessings though, just for yourself. Some of you sound as if you are in the opposition of the Hadith, just because you don't believe they are authentic, doesn't mean you can't accept a couple. Fictious or Not, we ALL must agree that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)'s character and life was a very great one. If it's okay for us to follow Gandhi's peaceful way, then why say no to the Prophet, who had been through way worse?

I don't follow his life exactly and every step of the way, just some stuff that I choose and find good for myself. I mean come on, we all wash ourselves when we pee, lol. And our hands, specially before eating because you know, it would be gross, otherwise.

If we all are free-thinkers, we should just use the Hadith as a book of wise sayings, obviously not as a secondary source to the religion. I understood your religion long ago because that's my religion too, I am a Muslim. I am aslo a positive person, I try to find the good in everything and that's why I choose the Hadith. I even find good in a "gangsta rapper" Tupac, even though most might say he was a thug and gangster, but that's his negative half. All I can do is curse it and gain nothing, but lose energy and time as well. It's better to look at everything in a positive way, causes less stress, hate and opposition towards others.

Therefore I agree with mostly all of your beliefs because that's what Islam is. You guys don't believe that all the Hadith are true, but not ALL are false either. I only have one objection and that's the fact that you believe that the last two ayat of Surah Al-Taubah are not supposed to be there (some say yes, some say no on this site) so I am referring to those who don't. The Qur'an itself states that it shouldn't be changed or can be changed until Allah wants

Otherwise everything is okay, we are all on the same page, what I have mentioned was the exact way I used to live my life before, and after studying the Hadith books. I don't believe any Scholar or Mufti until they have proven to me that their fatwa can be recognized with the Qur'an, and yes I learned that from a Hadith.

Please post your reply, and thanks for all of your help, it was a great experience learning here. The best thing I learned was that, I should finish the Qur'an first and try to memorize it so I won't need a Scholar's help to solve my problems. So I would know on the top of my head. What destroys the muslim faith is the fact that some people decide to follow whatever they are told blindly, which shouldn't be done. Even if it's true or not.

I am a follower more than a leader, and I like to absorb positive things from everyone, that's how I started adapting habits of our Prophet. Once again, Thanks, I have learned a lot here. My dad once said that you should finish reading and studying The Holy Qur'an before you move on to the Bible. He said that to me when I started reading/studying the Bible. When I started the Holy Qur'an it seemed to be as if it was a correction being made to the Bible, it started off in a similar way, it was as if the Qur'an was completing the entire religion, truly the words of Allah...Subhanallah!

This site has literally slapped me back on track, my blindness couldn't see the light that was being shown to me by the users constantly saying "Al-Qur'an". No matter how much you have read the Qur'an, you should keep on studying for more knowledge. However, the hadith and history is secondary.

Please post your opinions and replies!

Jazakallah!

Salam
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: andy on August 11, 2006, 02:13:06 AM
I always questioned the Hadeeth's authenticity but I don't think anyone has the authority to say if it's false or not. I just pick and choose between the ones that I like.
68:35 Should We treat the ones who surrendered the same as those who are criminals?
68:36 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
68:37 Or do you have another book which you study? 
68:38 In it, you can find what you wish?

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What I want to make clear is the fact that I follow some Hadeeth, not because I think I will get blessings for it. I do it because I feel like it's a better way to live life. Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)'s character, as stated in the Hadith was great, if you think it was fictious or not.
39:3 Absolutely, the religion shall be devoted to GOD alone. Those who set up idols beside Him say, "We idolize them only to bring us closer to GOD; for they are in a better position!" GOD will judge them regarding their disputes. GOD does not guide such liars, disbelievers.

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1. "La Illaha Il Allah Muhammad Ur Rasool Allah". - I am pretty sure you all are familiar with that.
63:1 When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD." GOD knows that you are His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

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2. Follow the Qur'an!!!
6:114 Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

45:6 These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

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3. Allah comes first! and then I choose to put Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) as my peaceful and great role model in life.
2:285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers: "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said: "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."

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What I mean by follow is that I try to adapt certain habits of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)stated in the Hadith.
61:2 O ye who believe! Why say ye that which ye do not?
61:3 It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that ye say that which ye do not.

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For example, eating manners, hygeine stuff, etc.
Shahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 65, Number 366:

    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    The Prophet said, 'When you eat, do not wipe your hands till you have licked it, or had it licked by somebody else."


Shahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:

    Narrated Abu Qilaba:

    Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle ."


Shahih Muslim Book 025, Number 5370:

    Abu Huraira reported having heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say: He who peeped into the house of people without their consent, it is permissible for them to put out his eyes.


Shahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 21, Number 230:

    Narrated Al-Mughira:

    The Prophet used to stand (in the prayer) or pray till both his feet or legs swelled. He was asked why (he offered such an unbearable prayer) and he said, "should I not be a thankful slave."


61:2 O ye who believe! Why say ye that which ye do not?
61:3 It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that ye say that which ye do not.
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: tanveermd on August 11, 2006, 04:37:33 AM
Peace brother Mustafa,

I do not reject ALL the hadeeth. I believe in only the 100 % true and authentic hadeeth, and nowadays the only place where I can find 100 % true and authentic hadeeth is in al-qur'aan.

Some examples of the 100 % true and authentic hadeeth of the Prophet are as follows. The underlined portion of these ayaat is the "hadeeth" of Prophet Muhammad, because Allah is asking him to say that in response to questions from the people:

2:189 They ask you regarding the new moons, Say: "They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Pilgrimage." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.

2:214 They ask you what they should spend, Say: "What you spend out of goodness should go to your family and the relatives and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer. And any good you do, God is fully aware of it."

2:216 They ask you about the restricted month: "Is there fighting in it?" Say: "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!

2:218 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, Say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

2:219 In this world and the next; and they ask you regarding the orphans, Say: "To fix their situation is best, and if you are to care for them, then they are your brothers." And God knows the corrupt from the good, and had God wished He could have made things difficult. God is Noble, Wise.

2:221 And they ask you about menstruation? Say: "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.

5:6 They ask you what was made lawful to them, Say: "All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch, you teach them from what God teaches you." So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.

7:188 They ask you regarding the Hour: "When will be its time?" Say: "Its knowledge is with my Lord, none can reveal its coming except Him. It is heavy through the heavens and the Earth; it will not come to you except suddenly." They ask you, as if you are responsible for it! Say: "Its knowledge is with God, but most people do not know."

8:2 They ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say: "The spoils of war are for God and the messenger." So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.

9:66 And if you ask them they Say: "We were only jesting and playing." Say: "Is it in God and His verses and His messenger you were mocking?"

11:30 "And my people, I do not ask you for money, my reward is with God. Nor will I turn away those who believe, for they will meet their Lord. But I see that you are a people who are ignorant."

17:86 And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little."

39:37 And if you ask them: "Who created the heavens and the Earth?", they will Say: "God." Say: "Do you see what you call on besides God, If God wanted any harm for me, can they alleviate His harm? Or if He wanted a mercy for me, can they hold back his mercy?" Say: "God is sufficient for me; in Him those who trust shall put their trust."


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I always questioned the Hadeeth's authenticity but I don't think anyone has the authority to say if it's false or not. I just pick and choose between the ones that I like.

Allah has the authority to say if a hadeeth is false or not. Islam is submission to Allah alone, not picking and choosing what we like. Allah clearly tells us to follow only that hadeeth which is His revelation:

45:6 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which "hadeeth" (narration), after God and His revelations, do they believe?

68:37 Or do you have another book which you study?
68:38 In it, you can find what you wish?


All hadeeth that are other than those already mentioned in al-qur'aan are baseless and not necessary/relevant for our guidance and should not be followed:

31:6 And from the people, there are those who accept baseless "hadeeth" (narrations) to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

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What I want to make clear is the fact that I follow some Hadeeth, not because I think I will get blessings for it. I do it because I feel like it's a better way to live life. Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)'s character, as stated in the Hadith was great, if you think it was fictious or not.

Yes, following the messenger is a better way to live life, PROVIDED WE FOLLOW THE AUTHENTIC SAYINGS AND THE AUTHENTIC EXAMPLES OF THE MESSENGER, and those authentic sayings and the authentic examples of the messenger can be found only in Allah's revelations.

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I believe there are three types of Hadeeth.

1) True Historical Events (wars etc.)

2) The Hadith that can be recognized with the Qur'an.

3) Very Old Hadith, non-historic and ones that cannot be recognized with the Qur'an.

I choose to believe in the first two, However, ALL Hadith aren't false or true. Therefore, we can assume that #2 might be truthful, but might have no concern in our lives, just a historical significance behind the specific Qur'anic Ayat. I follow #1 just to live my life in a better way and just for extra knowledge.

There are only two types of hadeeth:

1. The 100 % true and authentic hadeeth of the messengers which are found only in al-qur'aan.

2. The unverifiable hearsays, rumors, fabrications etc. which cannot be 100 % authenticated and confirmed.

It is safe only to follow the first type of hadeeth, and that is enough for our guidance as Allah's words are complete, detailed, contain every kind of example, and nothing is neglected from the book of Allah relevant to our guidance.

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I agree with you, follow the true Islam, be nice to everyone, not only to Muslims.

Agreed, good deeds/works are for everyone, not just for muslims.

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From what I have read, I follow only some Hadith of our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W). What I mean by follow is that I try to adapt certain habits of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)stated in the Hadith.

How can you determine that a particular habit of Prophet Muhammad relevant to our guidance as mentioned in a particular hadeeth was, with 100 % certainty, really/actually the habit of Prophet Muhammad, and not a fabrication by someone later on ? By following the true hadeeth stated in al-qur'aan, of course !

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I agree that the Hadith can be changed but the Qur'an cannot.

The true hadeeth are in al-qur'aan and can never be changed.

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I can't agree with anyone of you by denying all the Hadith, because that's my belief and what I think is right as well. I explained to everyone what my idea of the Hadith really is. Picking one or two unlogical Hadith doesn't mean all of them can't be followed BUT, the ones that contradict with the Qur'an shouldn't, ofcourse.

As I mentioned before, I don't deny ALL the hadeeth. I accept only those hadeeth that are 100 % authentic and true, and those hadeeth can only be found in al-qur'aan. Please see the examples of such hadeeth given earlier in this post.

Of course those hadeeth which contradict with al-qur'aan should be rejected, and those hadeeth that are authenticated and verified by al-qur'aan are in al-qur'aan anyway, so they are redundant.

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1. "La Illaha Il Allah Muhammad Ur Rasool Allah". - I am pretty sure you all are familiar with that.

This phrase is not a testification (bearing witness) but just a statement of belief and thus brother Andy's comments on this quote are not justified.

However, following are the problems with this quote:

Firstly, by mentioning only the name of Prophet Muhammad as messenger of Allah, we are differentiating between the messengers by not mentioning names of other messengers.

2:285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers: "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers";

Secondly, the messengers did not come to ask us to state their messengership but to state and believe the oneness of Allah. We believe in their messengership, but there is no command to state it verbally anywhere in al-qur'aan.

Thirdly, the name of Allah should be mentioned alone, and not along with someone else's name:

39:45 And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!

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I have no accounts of the lives of any other prophets except Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W). That's why I choose to live the life like he did. I mean you can't say that his great habits  shouldn't be followed because they aren't mentioned in the Qur'an.

Really ! You have no account of the lives of Prophets other than Prophet Muhammad ?  :o

What about the 100 % authentic and true accounts of the lives of the various Prophets in al-qur'aan ?

Prophet's Muhammad's habits should be followed along with the habits of other Prophets, and all those habits relevant and necessary for our guidance are already mentioned in al-qur'aan. Allah's words are complete, detailed, and contain EVERY kind of example relevant and necessary for our guidance, remember ?

Peace
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: FJ on August 11, 2006, 05:59:00 AM
Peace all,

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I do not reject ALL the hadeeth. I believe in only the 100 % true and authentic hadeeth, and nowadays the only place where I can find 100 % true and authentic hadeeth is in al-qur'aan.

Very well said, Tanveer.
Title: Re: Why choose "Qur'an Alone"? (Help from the current Followers)!!!
Post by: mquran on August 11, 2006, 10:47:12 AM
Salaamun alaikum Mustafa,

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mquran, I agree with you 100%. That's what I meant to say, that the things that will save us from hell are basic, not the widespread knowledge of the history. I agree with you, follow the true Islam, be nice to everyone, not only to Muslims. I am sure you and me are following the True Islam, because we are doing the basic things that will save us from the Hell-Fire, Inshallah!


Insha Allah.

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mquran, Thanks A Lot!!! for all of your help. You were the only person that actually made sense to me. The first reason is basically the fact that you didn't disrespect the Hadith or try to take apart the Hadith books but instead you told me your part without disrespecting anyone or any book. That for one, was the right way, which is the proper, decent, Islamic way. That's how the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and his companions used to spread Islam, instead of finding mistakes in the Bible, they read out the verses from the Qur'an. As far as I can understand, your approach is that you are not completely denying the Prophet's Hadith

You're welcome. I must admit, I did enough hadith criticism and bashing in my day. However, at this point, I find just concentrating on Al-Quraan would deneccistate bashing other texts.

In conclusion, I humbly ask you to focus on Al-Quraan as if Allah had revealed it unto you today. Al-Quraan is a living revelation with an organic system of imposing meaning unto its text. By all means, read other books but never let them corrupt, let alone override the world-view Al-Quraan builds. Al-Quraan is a map, you may traverse the journey without a map or with fragmented maps and still get there but why do that when you can have the map build by the One who made the territory!

shukran wa salam.