Free Minds

Critical Examination of Islam => Quranic Divinity => Topic started by: Danish on August 08, 2006, 11:02:34 PM

Title: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on August 08, 2006, 11:02:34 PM
What are the differences, if any? Hope to get some intellectual thoughts and a good discussion?
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Nadeem on August 08, 2006, 11:30:34 PM
Hi bro Danish,

Could you define the terms "Organized religion" and "System of God" in your own words. So that we know exactly what we're talking about.

Thanks,

Nadeem
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on August 09, 2006, 12:49:45 AM
Hi bro Danish,

Could you define the terms "Organized religion" and "System of God" in your own words. So that we know exactly what we're talking about.

Thanks,

Nadeem
Hello Nadeem,

Honestly speaking, that's what I am trying to find out. In short, people think that organized religion comes from the bifurcation of Islam (Sunnism & Shiaism) as per Quran and Ahadith and further disintegrating while the System of God is purely from Quran as per Quran/God Aloners and that too being disintegrated. I personally believe that both the Quran and Ahadiths are just hadiths (collection of narrations) only to find out that Quranic hadith came long before the Ahadiths and hence became the best hadith. Then we have another formation of an organized religion-cum-system of God combination called Code-19 (a mathematical one) and that too getting fragmented. All of them criticise each other to better understand their own systems and forcing their issues onto others. You can witness this happening all over Internet forums. After studying and understanding various religions for quite some time and actually being there myself, I left them all and became a "naturalist", i.e. living my life as dictated by nature/reality. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Nadeem on August 09, 2006, 02:20:10 AM
Hi Danish,

Thanks for clearing things up :)

I see that the points you're making regarding fragmentation are valid. This was also my concern when I started the topic "The truth is important, but..".

If one rejects a person or accepts a person based even on those personal beliefs, superstitions, opinions, conclusions, and thoughts of that person which do not pose an imminent or a remote danger to the well-being of one self, then one is bound to cause fragmentation. I believe that the brotherhood in islam is above those factors. I take this out of:

7:87
"And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until God judges between us. He is the best of judges."  

What is God's judgment on this, and how do we recognize it? The answer is in the very next verse:

7:88
And the leaders who became arrogant form among his people said: "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who believed with you, or else you will return to our creed!" He said: "Would you force us?"  

God doesn't decide between us with numbers nor with fatwas nor with opposing views among ourselves. The decision is made when one of the groups make their beliefs a danger to the well-being of others.

I ask whoever that might read this: Why can't we unite as longs as our beliefs and interpretations of the quran do not encourage the destruction of one another, nor hinder us from contributing to betterment?

I don't know if I've given you any intellectual thoughts Bro Danish, but it seems to me that "system of god" is the fetus, and "Organized religion" is the newborn, as long as we keep impregnanting our minds with condemnation towards eachother due to our non-lethal views.

Nadeem
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on August 10, 2006, 03:03:03 AM
Peace Nadeem,

I haven't forgotten your good post above and will get to it in time. Thanks.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: mquran on August 10, 2006, 03:12:33 AM
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Danish:I haven't forgotten your good post above and will get to it in time. Thanks

Nadeem, don't hold your breath. Like Enquirer, Danish - when he recognises that you've asked questions his worm-brain can't comprehend - will retreat quickly and pretend to forget. You've got a loooong wait ahead, Nadeem.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on August 10, 2006, 11:14:49 AM
Hello Nadeem,

If one rejects a person or accepts a person based even on those personal beliefs, superstitions, opinions, conclusions, and thoughts of that person which do not pose an imminent or a remote danger to the well-being of one self, then one is bound to cause fragmentation.
Paraphrasing your point above, am I correct to understand that "if one rejects or accepts one's beliefs without imminent danger for their own well-being, then division takes place"? I shall reply accordingly.

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What is God's judgment on this, and how do we recognize it?

God doesn't decide between us with numbers nor with fatwas nor with opposing views among ourselves.
I?d like to get your own self-realization and understanding of GOD before we spin out verses from the Quran. For example, how do you know that it is ?God?s judgment? and ?God does and/or doesn?t decide? or ?God says and/or doesn?t say this or that? or ?God did and/or didn?t mention this or that?, etc., etc.? We can discuss this "GOD" issue over at the other section, if you like.

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7:88
And the leaders who became arrogant form among his people said: "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who believed with you, or else you will return to our creed!" He said: "Would you force us?"

The decision is made when one of the groups make their beliefs a danger to the well-being of others.
Aren?t the above statements common human traits mankind has witnessed eons since and still quite vibrant, only that the above specific statement addresses Shuaib in its own time, no?

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I ask whoever that might read this: Why can't we unite as longs as our beliefs and interpretations of the quran do not encourage the destruction of one another, nor hinder us from contributing to betterment?
That?s a tough question Nadeem, but I'll try to respond. My personal view is that unless people shun all unprecedented imaginations, myths and conjectures (especially on religious grounds) and live in reality and what nature calls for, they can never unite and frankly, quite impossible.

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I don't know if I've given you any intellectual thoughts Bro Danish, but it seems to me that "system of god" is the fetus, and "Organized religion" is the newborn, as long as we keep impregnanting our minds with condemnation towards eachother due to our non-lethal views.
Your thoughts are certainly relevant and must be analyzed and defined, as is mine and others too. And I?m glad we are here discussing them. I believe the ?essence of nature/reality? is the fetus (the truth), while an ?organized religion? stems from it, mixed with imaginations, myths, folklore, tales and so forth, for creed, greed and breed on individual or grouped basis, hence forming divisions. Mankind in essence, carries all fundamental unlying principles as dictated and directed by this very essence of nature/reality and is not subjected to any sole organized religion to understand its effects.

Please remember that these are my personal views coming out of my own reflections and understandings and ofcourse subject to scrutiny.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Lobster on August 11, 2006, 10:11:36 AM
peace

"islam" is just a word that means "submission to god (or peace?)."
How can "islam" be an organized religion?
submitting to god does not require rituals, it involves doing good works.

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Your thoughts are certainly relevant and must be analyzed and defined, as is mine and others too. And I?m glad we are here discussing them. I believe the ?essence of nature/reality? is the fetus (the truth), while an ?organized religion? stems from it, mixed with imaginations, myths, folklore, tales and so forth, for creed, greed and breed on individual or grouped basis, hence forming divisions.
I agree.
The reason it does is that people like seeing this world in objects. In things. "Believers" recognize that the world has no objects.
People are concerned too much with material things, when our focus should be on the immaterial.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Abuja on August 26, 2006, 11:34:39 AM
In my opinion all religions are not systems of God or Allah but systems of man.  Man has created all of the religions in the world.  The only ones that would be in any way a system of God would be those that God has created and God creates things and teaches man everyday.  It is then up to us to do exactly as God says of instructs us to do.  If we then alter from this it would not be completely correct/true.  Therefore it would then not be a system of God but of man because man altered it.  Therefore taking away its  authenticity.   

Sincerely, Abuja/Larry
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: kevynbello on December 01, 2006, 01:40:15 PM
As for me, Islam (Submission) is a system of GOD, as all the Manifestations (great rasul) have taught, but the West (as it usually does) confined it to "religion."

In reality, there is only one religion: the Religion of GOD. It is humans who add superficial rituals and superstitions instead of purifying the Words of GOD. Even Buddha preached about One GOD, whom He described in very philosophical terms, but His disciples took it to mean monism instead of that glorious Monotheism. They glorified Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Jesus, etc. instead of focusing on the messages which they intended to give, and from that worship, they developed rigid ritualism.

But I'm sure GOD will forgive them... perhaps.

I am Baha'i, by the way. :D


In the name of GOD, the Most Pure, the Most Pure,
Kevyn.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 02, 2006, 05:56:11 PM
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As for me, Islam (Submission) is a system of GOD, as all the Manifestations (great rasul) have taught, but the West (as it usually does) confined it to "religion."
Religion has nothing to do with East or West. It simply means a set of beliefs, practices and observances of faith, especially servile, dominant, restricted and emanating from unprecedented, inevident and unscientific orthodoxical claims pertaining to supernatural deity or deities.

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In reality, there is only one religion: the Religion of GOD.
In reality, and the truth is, that there are numerous religions, all of which are nothing more than human affairs. There is no such thing as Religion of GOD but System of Nature within which life is dictated, dedicated and dependent and that is Reality; the crux of which is ?what you see is what you get?.

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It is humans who add superficial rituals and superstitions instead of purifying the Words of GOD.
?Words of GOD? itself is superstition connected with superficial rituals; the ambiguousness and incredibility of religiosity palpitated by wishfully malicious humans.

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But I'm sure GOD will forgive them... perhaps.
That is a contradictory statement and a desperate one at best.

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In the name of GOD, the Most Pure, the Most Pure,
In the name of which GOD and Most Pure of What?
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: kevynbello on December 02, 2006, 11:11:45 PM
Allah'u'Abha! (GOD is Glorious!)

Religion has nothing to do with East or West. It simply means a set of beliefs, practices and observances of faith, especially servile, dominant, restricted and emanating from unprecedented, inevident and unscientific orthodoxical claims pertaining to supernatural deity or deities.

Oh? I'm referring to Eastern concept of religion, which had a tendency to be all-encompassing of daily life and values, whilst the Western concept of religion, which separates it from state and from other areas of life. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that is what I have always learned, because of the rigidness of Western monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Baha'i Faith) and Eastern religions (Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism) which allow fluidity.

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In reality, and the truth is, that there are numerous religions, all of which are nothing more than human affairs. There is no such thing as Religion of GOD but System of Nature within which life is dictated, dedicated and dependent and that is Reality; the crux of which is ?what you see is what you get?.

I personally believe that Nature itself abide by the Laws of GOD evidently, and that which does not abide usually does not progress. There are numerous religions, but the main ones have always spoken (well, moreso the Prophets/Manifestations of GOD: Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, etc.) of one essence (monism) or a single personal being (monotheism). They all agree of One Source that brought everything into being, and that is why all religions are merely variations. But if you believe otherwise, go ahead! ^__^

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?Words of GOD? itself is superstition connected with superficial rituals; the ambiguousness and incredibility of religiosity palpitated by wishfully malicious humans.

I doubt that the writers of these Sacred Words are anything malicious. Guru Nanak's Guru Granth Sahib is filled with nothing but praises of GOD and descriptions (of what humans can attempt to describe) of HIS nature. The "Seven Valleys" and the "Four Valleys" of the Baha'i Faith is nothing but explications on how to reach GOD within. The Bhagavad Gita is a great poem filled with philosophical expressions of Reality and the description of True Reality. When I say "Words of GOD," I mean mainly the Scriptures of the Manifestations: Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. There were other wonderfully inspired people whom I believed did have Divine Inspiration.

Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, I believe is divine, as well as the Guru Granth Sahib, the Dao De Jing, and others.

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That is a contradictory statement and a desperate one at best.

I withdraw the statement, sorry! But the "perhaps" was to outline the unsurity of any human judgement, as GOD alone can be the true Judge.

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In the name of which GOD and Most Pure of What?

There is only one GOD to me, and He is the Most Pure of all. That is what the statement comes, and it comes from the Writings of the Manifestation of God (Prophet of God), Baha'u'llah.


What I was trying to say though, is that religion in Western thinking has always seen it as a separate institutionalised "organism," and that religions should not be viewed that way, but rather as a Dharmic concept. ^__^


Peace! :D
Kevyn.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 04, 2006, 02:50:21 PM
Allah'u'Abha! (GOD is Glorious!)
An understatement and illogical!

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Oh? I'm referring to Eastern concept of religion, which had a tendency to be all-encompassing of daily life and values, whilst the Western concept of religion, which separates it from state and from other areas of life. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that is what I have always learned, because of the rigidness of Western monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Baha'i Faith) and Eastern religions (Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism) which allow fluidity.
Religion is a universal dogmatic concept. Daily life and values are, once again, constantly and consistently dictated, dedicated and dependent upon Nature/Reality. The separation of church and state is aptly justified in the West rather than in the East because the western society is becoming more prone to practical approaches.

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I personally believe that Nature itself abide by the Laws of GOD evidently, and that which does not abide usually does not progress. There are numerous religions, but the main ones have always spoken (well, moreso the Prophets/Manifestations of GOD: Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, etc.) of one essence (monism) or a single personal being (monotheism). They all agree of One Source that brought everything into being, and that is why all religions are merely variations. But if you believe otherwise, go ahead! ^__^
Your personal belief that Laws of Nature are evidently that of Laws of GOD is unsubstantiated and paranoiac. In order to prove this superimposed assertion, you must first prove who or what GOD is, else it becomes a superstition. One cannot make a comparative study by knowing one thing and not the other. Besides, Laws of Nature carries dual phenomenon; constructive (good) and destructive (bad), which is not inherent in an alleged GOD as claimed. GOD, its attributes and all connected practices combined is only an outlandish concept conjured up by Man himself. It?s an innovation of heathenism, from being polytheistic to monotheistic, that?s all.

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I doubt that the writers of these Sacred Words are anything malicious. Guru Nanak's Guru Granth Sahib is filled with nothing but praises of GOD and descriptions (of what humans can attempt to describe) of HIS nature. The "Seven Valleys" and the "Four Valleys" of the Baha'i Faith is nothing but explications on how to reach GOD within. The Bhagavad Gita is a great poem filled with philosophical expressions of Reality and the description of True Reality. When I say "Words of GOD," I mean mainly the Scriptures of the Manifestations: Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. There were other wonderfully inspired people whom I believed did have Divine Inspiration.

Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, I believe is divine, as well as the Guru Granth Sahib, the Dao De Jing, and others.
You keep mentioning some Guru?s and scriptures of the ancient; don?t you have a mind of your own? I believe in Truths and Facts as given, not whimsical tales, myths and notions by the so-called he-said/she-said ?prophets? of the bygone days and the once-upon-a-time stories written in books. You are living at present, not in past nor in future, so think accordingly and wisely. Men of Today are much more intelligent and knowledgeable than ?Gurus? of the past, yet most lack integrity and common sense in justifying religious doctrines.

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There is only one GOD to me, and He is the Most Pure of all. That is what the statement comes, and it comes from the Writings of the Manifestation of God (Prophet of God), Baha'u'llah.
You didn?t answer my question. Whether there is One god or Many, no one knows anything about this alleged "hidden" GOD. Writings are man-made and ?most pure? doesn?t mean pure, henceforth the god becomes technically and logically impure. Godly and Devilish idols were created by man eons ago and all sorts of attributes (both good and evil) and statuses thumped upon them and this is how Man has understood them and constantly maneuvering in all haphazard directions and discomforts and being challenged in their very superstitious core beliefs.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Tay on December 04, 2006, 10:12:54 PM
Peace Danish,

You stated:
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Men of Today are much more intelligent and knowledgeable than ?Gurus? of the past

That's a bit arbitrary. Intelligence indicates potential while knowledge is simply quantity of information, neither of which you can patently prove to be more abundant today than in days past.

But anyway, to your question...

I'd say islam as described in the qur'an is neither a religion nor a system, as all religions are systematic by definition. And all systems, when you get down to the nitty gritty, can be seen as being followed religiously. It's my understanding that islam is simply a word that describes, in arabic, the persona of those who are in harmony with the flow of life - best translated as peacefulness or tranquility. The very basic tenets of islam denote a verifiable path to achieving this state of harmony: understanding that there is one unifying force behind the universe, that our actions have consequences (both local and long-term), and that positive contribution to the social and physical environment is fundamental in nurturing this outcome.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 05, 2006, 08:38:17 PM
Hello Tay,

You stated:
That's a bit arbitrary. Intelligence indicates potential while knowledge is simply quantity of information, neither of which you can patently prove to be more abundant today than in days past.
It is rather circumspect than arbitrary. Intelligence is the faculty of comprehension and knowledge is comprehension of information. Intelligence and knowledge are inbuilt via information. Information is gathered from factual realistic Nature. Today, humans have gained, advanced and surpassed the information that was ancient. Intelligence and Knowledge are neither patented nor proved, information is. Thanks to Nature and welcome to Reality.

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I'd say islam as described in the qur'an is neither a religion nor a system, as all religions are systematic by definition.
Now that?s a newbie; a fascinated attempt. You point is well taken.

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And all systems, when you get down to the nitty gritty, can be seen as being followed religiously.
The essential constituent of any religion is a man-made superstitious supernatural unknown deity (or deities) along with all its delusional adherents and rituals passed down over generations. Anything is possible when a human takes an oath in the name of such specie. You, as a Muslim, can conveniently extrapolate that Allah said this while another Muslim or even a non-Muslim can easily swear by this very Allah to mean that, both adamant in their views without knowing who or what exactly Allah is to begin with and suddenly each thumping the verses 2:18 and 2:171 upon each other. Such religious systems are dishonest, fictional and dangerous to mankind and must be totally eradicated. I believe in honesty, facts and a current just way of living a life, not by people bereft of such qualities. 

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It's my understanding that islam is simply a word that describes, in arabic, the persona of those who are in harmony with the flow of life - best translated as peacefulness or tranquility. The very basic tenets of islam denote a verifiable path to achieving this state of harmony: understanding that there is one unifying force behind the universe, that our actions have consequences (both local and long-term), and that positive contribution to the social and physical environment is fundamental in nurturing this outcome.
Yours and a few others' understanding of Islam as per Quran is misrepresented, distorted and dislodged from historical standpoint. Fundamental principals of living a ?good?, ?peaceful? and ?just? life are common traits inherent in ALL humans, including Atheists and ?wrongdoers?. How these traits are encountered, administered and diversified are purely environmental and have nothing to do with a superstitious insidious demanding commanding fearful unknown Deity written in a man-made book. All life-forms live, survive and adjust their environments as a direct consequence of what Nature dictates.

Edit: On a sidenote, when Islam is criticized or challenged, unlike other religions, one of two things happen: on a forum, a warning is given and ultimately the individual is disbanded from participation, whilst on confrontration, one is either subjected to extreme externalities or slaughtered. This is exactly the way of the Quran.....believe or else??????
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Lobster on December 05, 2006, 09:25:36 PM
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Yours and a few others' understanding of Islam as per Quran is misrepresented, distorted and dislodged from historical standpoint. Fundamental principals of living a ?good?, ?peaceful? and ?just? life are common traits inherent in ALL humans, including Atheists and ?wrongdoers?. How these traits are encountered, administered and diversified are purely environmental and have nothing to do with a superstitious insidious demanding commanding fearful unknown Deity written in a man-made book. All life-forms live, survive and adjust their environments as a direct consequence of what Nature dictates.
peace Danish, an "athiest" can be a "muslim." And can you explain the part in bold letters? We make choices based on our situation/environment, and whether we prosper or fail depends on the choices we make. And to make the right choices, we have to be in a state of peacefulness. That's islam.
You have to stop looking at the word and at the quran like everyother religion filled with superstition. It's much simpler than most people make it out to be.

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.....believe or else
exactly. Your actions have consequences, don't they?
You can either believe in the truth, and live a good, happy life, or you can believe in falsehood and be miserable.

Don't look at this as Muslim vs Non Muslim. I think taking it this way ruins the whole message.
If you think about it, all the rituals and superstitions we have today come from literal interpretation of people's words or "holy" texts.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Tay on December 05, 2006, 10:14:42 PM
Peace Danish,

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Information is gathered from factual realistic Nature. Today, humans have gained, advanced and surpassed the information that was ancient. Intelligence and Knowledge are neither patented nor proved, information is. Thanks to Nature and welcome to Reality.

Danish, if intelligence is the faculty of comprehension, then there is nothing in your words to indicate someone alive today is more intelligent than someone alive 1000 years ago. The abundance of data is completely irrelevant because it is the potential to analyze/comprehend that data that you've called into question. Nevertheless, this is far off-topic.

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Now that?s a newbie; a fascinated attempt. You point is well taken.


Attempt at what, bro? Religions are systematic. Do you agree or disagree?

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You, as a Muslim, can conveniently extrapolate that Allah said this while another Muslim or even a non-Muslim can easily swear by this very Allah to mean that, both adamant in their views without knowing who or what exactly Allah is to begin with and suddenly each thumping the verses 2:18 and 2:171 upon each other.

And you conveniently say that Allah does not exist. So who's right? Is that what this thread is about? In the past, I've enjoyed debating with you because your approach seemed fair in the realm of logic. This reply of yours seems to me, however, as simply a way to steer the conversation into your arena of islam-bashing.

The fact is, my view is what I'm sharing. I don't represent the masses nor even a few. I represent me and my understanding of the book called the qur'an, and my understanding of what islam equates to. It has nothing to do with convenience nor backpedalling nor apologia. These are simply my views based on my capacity to understand the text. If it's ok with you, in our future dialogue, I would appreciate keeping the points between me and you and leave the rest of the muslim world out of it.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 06, 2006, 07:45:17 AM
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Information is gathered from factual realistic Nature. Today, humans have gained, advanced and surpassed the information that was ancient. Intelligence and Knowledge are neither patented nor proved, information is. Thanks to Nature and welcome to Reality.

Danish, if intelligence is the faculty of comprehension, then there is nothing in your words to indicate someone alive today is more intelligent than someone alive 1000 years ago. The abundance of data is completely irrelevant because it is the potential to analyze/comprehend that data that you've called into question.
Tay, intelligence and knowledge gained and advanced over a span of 1000 years is by metes and bounds truely relevant and important and has nothing to do with my words. It is a very basic continuous life?s upward trend (called advancing stages) having combined past and present information gathered along that you can?t seem to grasp. It?s an evolution process. One can clearly see this from an education standpoint. Do you think that the level of education taught today at universities would match that of 1000 years ago? Don?t we have the tools to live a much sophisticated and comforted life today than 1000 years ago? Aren?t we not traveling, communicating and commuting in speeds rivaled 1000 years ago? If the ?Gurus? of the past were to suddenly appear today, they?d be in shock-n-awe and in total dismay. If not, why not and what made today what was not yesterday? And please don?t give me this potential stuff to steer away from what I am expressing because according to the holy-shmolies an alleged deity taught Adam everything and bestowed some of his "favorites" with unimaginable powers of knowledge, intelligence and strength long before Muhammad was born. 

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Now that?s a newbie; a fascinated attempt. You point is well taken.

Attempt at what, bro? Religions are systematic. Do you agree or disagree?
Attempt to fascinate your own convoluted statement as to ?Islam being neither a religion nor a system?. Religions are systematic in what way? By comparison, they are world apart, carry some truth and mostly capricious.

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You, as a Muslim, can conveniently extrapolate that Allah said this while another Muslim or even a non-Muslim can easily swear by this very Allah to mean that, both adamant in their views without knowing who or what exactly Allah is to begin with and suddenly each thumping the verses 2:18 and 2:171 upon each other.

And you conveniently say that Allah does not exist. So who's right?
While your reply is off-tangent, I will respond by saying, ?Not conveniently but honestly and factually?. Honesty and facts are always right.

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The fact is, my view is what I'm sharing. I don't represent the masses nor even a few. I represent me and my understanding of the book called the qur'an, and my understanding of what islam equates to. It has nothing to do with convenience nor backpedalling nor apologia. These are simply my views based on my capacity to understand the text. If it's ok with you, in our future dialogue, I would appreciate keeping the points between me and you and leave the rest of the muslim world out of it.
I?m afraid Your views of the Quran, and rightly so of any other, are only fitting by convenience and extrapolation of words/verses without historical backup just to shape up the look-good feel-good faith. This seems to be an ongoing genetic problem among all Muslims and more recently in Quran Aloners, especially the hilarious scientific ones. It is no wonder Muslims themselves can?t seem to comprehend their own holy book and live in peace together. Virtually all denominations of Islam are segregated and confrontational. The most peaceful sect of Islam that I've come across thus far are the Ismailies (Aga Khanies), unlike the hard-core faithheads who cannot think outside their sealed patented super-duper boxes.

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In the past, I've enjoyed debating with you because your approach seemed fair in the realm of logic. This reply of yours seems to me, however, as simply a way to steer the conversation into your arena of islam-bashing.
Please stick to the discussion at hand. I have deliberated several criticisms against the Quran and towards a religious personal supreme idol, so this mustn?t be a surprise. Islam-bashing, if you must put it that way, is a common trait among Muslims as well, which ofcourse they will never realize nor admit.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Tay on December 06, 2006, 09:11:00 AM
Peace Danish,

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Tay, intelligence and knowledge gained and advanced over a span of 1000 years is by metes and bounds truely relevant and important and has nothing to do with my words. It is a very basic continuous life?s upward trend (called advancing stages) having combined past and present information gathered along that you can?t seem to grasp. It?s an evolution process. One can clearly see this from an education standpoint. Do you think that the level of education taught today at universities would match that of 1000 years ago?


You're stretching to prove your point, which was refuted in my first reply. Potential is not affected by the available data. Rather than take a guru from the past and present him/her with todays technology (which is intellectually dishonest in regards to the definition of intelligence), you would have to take a guru baby and raise him/her in today's society to see that your ridiculous original comment is arbitrary. Hawking is not more intelligent than Galilieo, and Galileo is not more intelligent than Aristotle. More factual based on more data, yes. But not more intelligence. You cannot measure the intelligence of dead people.

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Attempt to fascinate your own convoluted statement as to ?Islam being neither a religion nor a system?. Religions are systematic in what way? By comparison, they are world apart, carry some truth and mostly capricious.

Let's ask merriam webster:

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Main Entry: re?li?gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

Don't believe Webster? Let's ask Oxford:

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religion
  ? noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.



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While your reply is off-tangent, I will respond by saying, ?Not conveniently but honestly and factually?. Honesty and facts are always right.


And subjective, apparently  ;)

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I?m afraid Your views of the Quran, and rightly so of any other, are only fitting by convenience and extrapolation of words/verses without historical backup just to shape up the look-good feel-good faith.

So the same can be said of your anti-islamic views (minus the look-good feel-good part).

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Please stick to the discussion at hand.

I tried, but you seem to be dead-set on staging another venting session. I said islam is neither a religion nor a system. Rather than address what I stated, you chose to describe my view as "misrepresented, distorted and dislodged ". Now if I did the same to you from the get-go, then there would be no discussion. What's the point of starting a thread if you don't want to discuss anything that differs from your own viewpoint?

Like I said, in the future, please address me and what I've stated as dialogue between me and you. If you're incapable of that, then I leave you in peace.

-Tay
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 06, 2006, 12:43:01 PM
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Tay, intelligence and knowledge gained and advanced over a span of 1000 years is by metes and bounds truely relevant and important and has nothing to do with my words. It is a very basic continuous life?s upward trend (called advancing stages) having combined past and present information gathered along that you can?t seem to grasp. It?s an evolution process. One can clearly see this from an education standpoint. Do you think that the level of education taught today at universities would match that of 1000 years ago?

You're stretching to prove your point, which was refuted in my first reply. Potential is not affected by the available data. Rather than take a guru from the past and present him/her with todays technology (which is intellectually dishonest in regards to the definition of intelligence), you would have to take a guru baby and raise him/her in today's society to see that your ridiculous original comment is arbitrary. Hawking is not more intelligent than Galilieo, and Galileo is not more intelligent than Aristotle. More factual based on more data, yes. But not more intelligence. You cannot measure the intelligence of dead people.
My stretching is an extension to get to your head (if you don?t mind me being discreet) as to what I am talking about while you deliberately bend and twist it to talk about intelligence ONLY and claim a misconstrued refutation/victory and then acknowledge more data. Without data, there?s no potential and the more the data/information (knowledge), the more the potential (intelligence).

Pick out any today?s guru and he will teach wonders to his ancient predecessors. As far as those scientists you mentioned, the ?data? (information/knowledge) Aristotle had centuries ago is no where close to today's Hawking?s and since Hawking already knows Aristotle?s, Galileo?s and as well as his own all latest data, Hawking is a lot more informed and knowledgeable and hence vastly intelligent. Besides, unlike gurus of God, scientists have their own fields of studies and can be totally unrelated. Another bend and twist, LOL! Was that a joke, Tay! Never seen you like this before. This is getting nowhere and becoming absurd.

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Attempt to fascinate your own convoluted statement as to ?Islam being neither a religion nor a system?. Religions are systematic in what way? By comparison, they are world apart, carry some truth and mostly capricious.

Let's ask merriam webster:

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Main Entry: re?li?gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

Don't believe Webster? Let's ask Oxford:

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religion
  ? noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.
Earlier you mentioned ?as per Quran? and now you are mentioning ?as per English dictionaries? and that too with a pick-n-choose verbiage. What happened to those good old fashioned classical Arabic/Aramaic/Hebrew language. Yet another bend and twist to suit your need.

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While your reply is off-tangent, I will respond by saying, ?Not conveniently but honestly and factually?. Honesty and facts are always right.

And subjective, apparently
Certainly not, since I?m not the one making superstitious wishful claims and twisting and bending words/verses of an ancient alleged Allah?s book fallen out of thin air to fit today?s agenda by hook or by crook.

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I?m afraid Your views of the Quran, and rightly so of any other, are only fitting by convenience and extrapolation of words/verses without historical backup just to shape up the look-good feel-good faith.

So the same can be said of your anti-islamic views (minus the look-good feel-good part).
Certainly not, because I take historical information, other sources, current views and world views as legitimate accounts (as per the Quran by any stretch of means) that are extremely important to understand Quran and not just pick, choose and fit dictionary or personal meanings as whatever pleases you to budget your wishful latest agendas just because that meaning fits, and viola. Without historical support, Quran will never be properly understood, no matter how hard you try and this is exactly what is being witnessed by Quran Aloners and even by 19ers. I will guarantee you that much and you will spend all your life trying to figure it out by venting upon Allah said this and Allah said that whilst having no clue whatsoever, which has become rather a nuisance. 

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Like I said, in the future, please address me and what I've stated as dialogue between me and you. If you're incapable of that, then I leave you in peace.
I?m not sure what you are trying to achieve here, but my responses are addressed directly to your replies and none other. Perhaps you need some fresh air, bro.

What I am truly concerned with as of this very moment, is that, you and five other moderators, may take my criticisms to Martian levels of profanity and disband me from further participation by unjust means without a trial. Can you guarantee my save haven on this forum, if I were to stay within justified means of ?free speech?? If I am not supposed to bring about criticisms and discussions against religious belief systems on this section of forum, then please let me in advance and I shall refrain from doing so without getting ?slaughtered? out of forum.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Arnold Yasin on December 06, 2006, 01:24:25 PM
Peace,

Danish, here is a small article on the differences between religion and the Quranic system:

http://mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/quranic-system-compared-to-religion-or.html (http://mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/quranic-system-compared-to-religion-or.html)
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Tay on December 06, 2006, 01:38:39 PM
Peace Danish,

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Without data, there?s no potential and the more the data/information (knowledge), the more the potential (intelligence).


This is where you're wrong. Potential and ability to fulfil that potential are not the same, Danish. More data does not mean more potential. 500mb of storage does not change if you have more or less data than 500mb. The potential stays the same no matter what.

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This is getting nowhere and becoming absurd.

Agreed.

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Earlier uou mentioned ?as per Quran? and now you are mentioning ?as per dictionaries? and that too with a pick-n-choose verbiage.


Context. "System" is a word you used in the title of this thread. You did not get "system" from the qur'an. Further, you said a religion cannot be a system. Since we're using English words, I provided the English definitions.

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Certainly not, since I?m not the one making superstitious wishful claims and twisting and bending words/verses of an ancient alleged Allah?s book fallen out of thin air to fit today?s agenda by hook or by crook.


Please provide the evidence that I made a single superstitious claim, else, stand corrected.

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Certainly not, because I take historical information, other sources, current views and world views as legitimate accounts that are extremely important to understand Quran and not just pick, choose and fit dictionary or personal meanings as whatever pleases you to budget your wishful latest agendas just because that meaning fits, and viola.


I see. Historical information = hadith? Other sources = no other sources? Current views = someone's opinion? World views = media? Interesting how not included in your criterion is the arabic language itself, nor your own understanding of the text. Like I said, subjective. And you accuse me of being selective?

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I?m not sure what you are trying to achieve here, but my responses are addressed directly to your replies and none other.


I'm trying to achieve dialogue, between Tay and Danish, without the constant interference of your mind's compelling desire to bring the entire muslim world into the mix. You've known me long enough to know that I don't buy what the majority is selling. It's truly disappointing to see this regression coming from you.

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What I am truly concerned with as of this very moment, is that, you and five other moderators, may take my criticisms to Martian levels of profanity and disband me from further participation by unjust means without a trial.


My appointment has not changed my persona. Have I ever treated you this way before?

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Can you guarantee my save haven on this forum, if I were to stay within justified means of ?free speech??


The rules are the rules, bro. You know what they are and you know the limits. It's not my place to guarantee anything. I'm just a helper.

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If I am not supposed to bring about criticisms and discussions against religious belief systems on this section of forum, then please let me in advance and I shall refrain from doing so without getting ?slaughtered? out of forum.

Criticism and discussion is fine, and you know that. What I'm talking about is our discussion right here and now. I presented my view, answering your question at the title of this thread, and you didn't address it. What you did was tell me it's irrelevant and that it's wishful thinking. Not very cool. If that's the way you're going to handle your threads, then let me know and I'll refrain from wasting my time.

In ending, you of all people should know that views and understandings change with time. We remain open-minded and we discuss and share thoughts and keep things respectful, and all is well. There will always be disagreement. But no one on this forum holds a monopoly on the truth. As long as you come at me with that attitude, we're better off not discussing at all.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 06, 2006, 03:19:35 PM
Tay, JFYI, you don't need to address by 'Peace' on each and every replies and I really don't mind as I understand its a continuous converstation, but then again, I shall leave that up to you. I rather prefer being realistic.

This is where you're wrong. Potential and ability to fulfil that potential are not the same, Danish. More data does not mean more potential. 500mb of storage does not change if you have more or less data than 500mb. The potential stays the same no matter what.

Agreed.
Tay, the more the data, the more or better the potential. Your analogy of 500mb becomes restrictive and moot, simply because if I had 550mb of data, your storage cannot hold and would thus require more storage (potential) to store that xtra data and hence retain all information. Why are so bent with desperation to misunderstand a simple fact and bring about silly analogies, beats me? 
 
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Context. "System" is a word you used in the title of this thread. You did not get "system" from the qur'an. Further, you said a religion cannot be a system. Since we're using English words, I provided the English definitions.
Okay fine, and I gave you an answer either way. Further, it was you who contended towards Islam being neither a system nor a religion, and I acknowledged it.
 
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Please provide the evidence that I made a single superstitious claim, else, stand corrected.
O com'on Tay, don't be such a naive pain in the butt. Not only yours but this entire forum is full of such claims and you know exactly what I've been talking about. You are acting like a child now.

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I see. Historical information = hadith? Other sources = no other sources? Current views = someone's opinion? World views = media? Interesting how not included in your criterion is the arabic language itself, nor your own understanding of the text. Like I said, subjective. And you accuse me of being selective?
I'm sorry, but I call your above two quoted replies as "bull-crap" or victimization. This happens too often when religious fanciful and wishful adherents start losing grounds.
 
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I'm trying to achieve dialogue, between Tay and Danish, without the constant interference of your mind's compelling desire to bring the entire muslim world into the mix. You've known me long enough to know that I don't buy what the majority is selling. It's truly disappointing to see this regression coming from you.
This regression and arrogance of yours will come out of its hibernation when majority becomes Quranists. Let me know how would you handle the minority's view then? The majority line of reasoning, is the one of most vicious and crooked argument Islamists has invented. If the majority is right, you will cheerlead, but when they are wrong you will spit out the magical verse. How convenient!!!
 
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My appointment has not changed my persona. Have I ever treated you this way before?
 
The rules are the rules, bro. You know what they are and you know the limits. It's not my place to guarantee anything. I'm just a helper.
All I know that your rules as per Quran are not my rules and certainly not the rules of 6+ billion people living succesfully and meaningfully today. But ofcourse, as per your persona, the majority are wrong and they simply can't help in living their purposeful natural ways without the Quran. O well, tough luck to all "miserable" ones, they will abide in hell either way and I am sure I shall be treated well in hell, like Abraham did.

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Criticism and discussion is fine, and you know that. What I'm talking about is our discussion right here and now. I presented my view, answering your question at the title of this thread, and you didn't address it. What you did was tell me it's irrelevant and that it's wishful thinking. Not very cool. If that's the way you're going to handle your threads, then let me know and I'll refrain from wasting my time.
Tay, what are bungling about now. I really don't seem to understand you. One minute you start talking about intelligence only and the next on personal issues and then on titles of thread. It is you who is hip-hopping from side to side and blaming me for it. Is this your newly moderated rule of way in expounding to expunge me. Check who I gave my first response to on this thread AFTER taxing me for a month and then you barged in to respond. Revert, read and reflect, and come to your senses please.

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In ending, you of all people should know that views and understandings change with time. We remain open-minded and we discuss and share thoughts and keep things respectful, and all is well. There will always be disagreement. But no one on this forum holds a monopoly on the truth. As long as you come at me with that attitude, we're better off not discussing at all.
I just hope there's no political vandalism by "defeat" to cause an unecessary effect on "attitude" by superiority complex. That's all.
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Tay on December 06, 2006, 03:51:29 PM
Peace Danish,

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O com'on Tay, don't be such a naive pain in the butt. Not only yours but this entire forum is full of such claims and you know exactly what I've been talking about. You are acting like a child now.

Just one superstitious example would have been good. I really don't know what you're talking about. Superstition is something I shy away from.

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I'm sorry, but I call your above two quoted replies as "bull-crap" or victimization. This happens too often when religious fanciful and wishful adherents start losing grounds.


Religious fanciful??? I guess you don't know me at all. I guess all the dialogue you and have had in the past was lost on deaf ears.

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If the majority is right, you will cheerlead, but when they are wrong you will spit out the magical verse. How convenient!!!

Thanks for reading my mind and telling the future in the process, and then judging me based on these phenomena.

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All I know that your rules as per Quran are not my rules...

Forum rules, bro. Not mine. Not rules as per Quran.

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I really don't seem to understand you.


Ditto.

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One minute you start talking about intelligence only and the next on personal issues and then on titles of thread.

As each point is made, it's addressed. This is the way we converse.

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It is you who is hip-hopping from side to side and blaming me for it.

I don't know about any hip-hopping or blame. My beef is pretty simple, and I've stated it more than once now. You asked a question in your thread title. I answered to the best of my ability. You did not respond to my view, you swept it under the rug as wishful thinking. It's in black and white for all to see. I'm not evading, I'm not hip-hopping, I'm not blaming, I'm not thinking wishfully. If you're still confused, then so be it.

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Is this your newly moderated rule of way in expounding to expunge me.

There's no agenda here bro. It's me...Tay. I'm talking to you about our discussion.

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Check who I gave my first response to on this thread AFTER taxing me for a month and then you barged in to respond.


I didn't realize it was a private thread. I apologize.

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I just hope there's no political vandalism by "defeat" to cause an unecessary effect on "attitude" by superiority complex. That's all.

If I treated you that way in the past, then I would understand your apprehension. As it stands, I do not. I've always respected you and your beliefs. I've never talked to you the way you've talked to me in this thread. If there's one thing you can take from these most recent exchanges, let it be that I harbor no ill will. I maintain my respect for you and your beliefs. I am, however, disappointed that we've come to this point.

May peace be upon you,
Tay
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Danish on December 06, 2006, 05:04:35 PM
Just one superstitious example would have been good. I really don't know what you're talking about. Superstition is something I shy away from.
How about a deity named ALLAH and HIS words called Quran??? Do you personally know anything about this Allah to begin with?
 
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Religious fanciful??? I guess you don't know me at all. I guess all the dialogue you and have had in the past was lost on deaf ears.
I guess so, pretty sad.

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Thanks for reading my mind and telling the future in the process, and then judging me based on these phenomena.
Kyle taught me the secrets of mental phenomenon.;)

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Forum rules, bro. Not mine. Not rules as per Quran.
I guess forum are current and superior, but not the Quran, which is fine with me.:D
 
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Ditto.
Fair enough.

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As each point is made, it's addressed. This is the way we converse.
Must change forum rules then pertaining to off-tangent addressing. Nevermind, things change around pretty fast here to catch up to. But then, must be my sluggish mind. :-X

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I don't know about any hip-hopping or blame. My beef is pretty simple, and I've stated it more than once now. You asked a question in your thread title. I answered to the best of my ability. You did not respond to my view, you swept it under the rug as wishful thinking. It's in black and white for all to see. I'm not evading, I'm not hip-hopping, I'm not blaming, I'm not thinking wishfully. If you're still confused, then so be it.
You didn't answer to thread title but to a specific post on my come-back. Nevertheless, almost every thread on this entire forum strays off one way or the other. I guess I'm on the Watchful Squadron Eagle Eye's top list to spite upon while the beautiful singing Robins and Finches are petted?

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There's no agenda here bro. It's me...Tay. I'm talking to you about our discussion.
Okay  Tay, understood. My bad.:'(

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I didn't realize it was a private thread. I apologize.
You simply didn't catch my words, how silly of me. I wish I knew there were private threads.

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If I treated you that way in the past, then I would understand your apprehension. As it stands, I do not. I've always respected you and your beliefs. I've never talked to you the way you've talked to me in this thread. If there's one thing you can take from these most recent exchanges, let it be that I harbor no ill will. I maintain my respect for you and your beliefs. I am, however, disappointed that we've come to this point.
Trust me, I had the same feelings and would rather not become emotional and disspirited but brush it off to begin anew. :)

Perhaps we shall meet again in good spirits. :peace:
Title: Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
Post by: Tay on December 06, 2006, 05:25:07 PM
Peace  :peace: