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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: simple on August 06, 2006, 10:23:48 PM

Title: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 06, 2006, 10:23:48 PM


Salaams all,

Just sharing a Trans done for a colleague. So God forbids fat how about all them other things eating monkeys or shi- or anything else, did he forget about the billion other things?

Well may it isn't fat.

Using lanes dictionary.

6:146
> And to those who were Jews We forbade
> Everything like cat fighting and to
> cause division and the spoils of war we prohibited to them to live
> Thus except what they bear openly or possessing by entitlement/
> gathered or which is in partnership with honour/ above all
> Imperfections thus we recompensed them for their acting unjustly.

So isn't it so that if we do anything heinous to the well being of others it is likely to be forbidden don't all decent human beings do that in light of


God Bless all.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 07, 2006, 05:18:27 AM
Peace Simple

Who eats sh*t? I think it's self-explanatory not to eat it...
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 07, 2006, 08:05:59 AM
Peace Simple

Who eats sh*t? I think it's self-explanatory not to eat it...

True but lots of things can be mentioned not good for us.

But to me all the ayah is saying is don't try and get other people's things of value by heinous means but have integrity/ honour be fare.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: Elke on August 07, 2006, 08:09:58 AM
Peace simple,

you're retranslations generally make a lot of sense to me, and i don't mean linguistically as unfortunately i'm not able to verify in the arabic langage.
Keep up the good work.

lk
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 07, 2006, 02:48:20 PM
Bro simple

your translation is totally misleading regarding 7:146

bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

take care
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 07, 2006, 03:30:41 PM
Thanks elke,


Peace ahmed,

Bro simple

your translation is totally misleading regarding 7:146

bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

take care

We can't win everybody - but it wasn't 7:164 but 6:146 and you mean concepts.

Unfortunately I don't/ can't accept some of them so I use lanes to see an alternative meaning that is all.

And how beautiful they come out - to me anyways.

Your concepts make Monkeys and pigs out of men???????????? or is that wrong Br?

God Bless.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 07, 2006, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: simple
Peace ahmed,

Bro simple

your translation is totally misleading regarding 7:146

bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

take care

We can't win everybody - but it wasn't 7:164 but 6:146 and you mean concepts.

Peace bro.

do you mean my mistake was 7:146 and not 7:164?, lol

anyway, me and you know what verse we are talking about, sorry for my mistake but you too did a mistake and thought that I mmeant 7:164

Quote from: simple
Unfortunately I don't/ can't accept some of them so I use lanes to see an alternative meaning that is all.

ok, and who is lanes exactly?

Quote from: simple
And how beautiful they come out - to me anyways.

Yeh yeh, it is called the feel good religion, I know exactly what you mean

Quote from: simple
Your concepts make Monkeys and pigs out of men???????????? or is that wrong Br?

God Bless.

look I don't like vague comments regarding the Quran, bring the verses and discuss it with me and we will see, however if a verse is sort of a metaphor that does not mean the well established meaning verses fall under your efforts to find new meanings for it, in effect you are writing off what the prophet taught us and hence you are not following him, you are following lanes

cheers
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 07, 2006, 10:13:28 PM
Salaams Br ahmed,

5:60
   Say: ?Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worst place and are more astray from the right path.?


What is this , a  metaphor - if so show me where it says its a metaphor - and don't say of things what Allah doesn't say of them.

 ;D

Salaams.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 05:41:22 AM
Peace Simple

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you really can't just pick an aya that doesn't make sense to you, and instead of trying to understand it, make up things. This is really not how deen works at all. If there are issues you have with quran I would suggest you try to research thru the real meaning, because there is a big danger in attributing falsehood to God's Word.

It's great that you take nothing for granted and use ijtihad to try to break ayaat down and get to the nitty-gritty. But when you do that, please keep in mind that you can't twist the aya to your liking.

I'm not going to break down the entire aya for you because I'm sure you've gone over it enough times to know that the aya specifically states WA MIN AL BAQAR WA AL GHANAM.... and from the cows and sheep... HARRAMNA AALAYHOM SHOHOOMAHOMA ... we forbade for them their fat.... ELLA MA HAMALAT THOHOOROHOMA AW AL HAWAYA ... except what's stuck to the back or entrails... AW MA AKHTALAT BE AATHM THALIK... or what was mixed with the bones .

This is a very detailed description of the body parts of an animal with the exact kind of animal this pertains to as well. There can be no "alternative" meaning, I'm sorry.

These were dietary laws for the Jews in order to test them. Much like their test with the she-camel. Much like their test with the cow. It is to discern the faithful from the hypocrites. Today, for Muslims God ordains to eat from all the good foods He Blessed us with. Except the meat of a dead animal, blood, and swine. Thank God, it is a simple test for us and also beneficial to our bodies to stay away from such things. You ask why God did not add, don't eat sh_t. It's just self-explanatory. It's not appetizing but perhaps bacon is. So we'd need a heads up on that one. As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with eating a monkey. Not something I would do :D but I never heard of anything harmful coming from it... i may be wrong dunno. Even if there are a million things wrong with it. God gave us the key already. He gave us the pattern to follow. It's up to us to use our brains now. If there is something else that turns out to be bad for you, don't eat it. You don't need every detail mentioned in order to follow God's Way. Please refer to the story of the cow starting with 2:67 to get my drift of how we should not act when approaching these matters.

Peace
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 08, 2006, 07:29:23 AM
Peace Simple

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you really can't just pick an aya that doesn't make sense to you, and instead of trying to understand it, make up things. This is really not how deen works at all. If there are issues you have with quran I would suggest you try to research thru the real meaning, because there is a big danger in attributing falsehood to God's Word.

It's great that you take nothing for granted and use ijtihad to try to break ayaat down and get to the nitty-gritty. But when you do that, please keep in mind that you can't twist the aya to your liking.

I'm not going to break down the entire aya for you because I'm sure you've gone over it enough times to know that the aya specifically states WA MIN AL BAQAR WA AL GHANAM.... and from the cows and sheep... HARRAMNA AALAYHOM SHOHOOMAHOMA ... we forbade for them their fat.... ELLA MA HAMALAT THOHOOROHOMA AW AL HAWAYA ... except what's stuck to the back or entrails... AW MA AKHTALAT BE AATHM THALIK... or what was mixed with the bones .

This is a very detailed description of the body parts of an animal with the exact kind of animal this pertains to as well. There can be no "alternative" meaning, I'm sorry.

These were dietary laws for the Jews in order to test them. Much like their test with the she-camel. Much like their test with the cow. It is to discern the faithful from the hypocrites. Today, for Muslims God ordains to eat from all the good foods He Blessed us with. Except the meat of a dead animal, blood, and swine. Thank God, it is a simple test for us and also beneficial to our bodies to stay away from such things. You ask why God did not add, don't eat sh_t. It's just self-explanatory. It's not appetizing but perhaps bacon is. So we'd need a heads up on that one. As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with eating a monkey. Not something I would do :D but I never heard of anything harmful coming from it... i may be wrong dunno. Even if there are a million things wrong with it. God gave us the key already. He gave us the pattern to follow. It's up to us to use our brains now. If there is something else that turns out to be bad for you, don't eat it. You don't need every detail mentioned in order to follow God's Way. Please refer to the story of the cow starting with 2:67 to get my drift of how we should not act when approaching these matters.

Peace

Sorry souls,

but you need to start using your brain rather then simply follow what your given.

WE SHOULDN'T TRY AND UPHOLD EVERYTHING WE BELIEVE SIMPLY
BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN BELIEVING IT - THAT IS WHAT ALL OTHERS DO.

We weigh and consider as Allah wants us to.

Do men change to swine or apes - "NO"

When two people fight you make fighting illegal , and you don't say because you are fighting you can't get married or you can't eat fat...............

that is all but if you want to keep to your belief, then to you your way and to me my way.

and i don't make up things but simply investigate the meanings of words from Arabic lexicon/ dictionary which is for people to use.And would never Accept/ follow what someone says without weighing and considering for myself.

Gods Blessings.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 07:58:16 AM
Peace Simple

Please explain to me the alternative meaning for BAQAR and GHANAM if you are truthful.

Thanks
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: enquirer on August 08, 2006, 08:17:06 AM
Easy peoples. I must say that simples' method of translation is one of the better methods on the forum...(relatively speaking.) Taking the quran literally results in many contradictions and problems...The chopping of hands,whippings and sticks turning into snakes are just a few examples of what happens with literalism...Sticking to literalism is a very perilous and harmful position... see 17:36...
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 08, 2006, 08:24:11 AM
Peace Simple

Please explain to me the alternative meaning for BAQAR and GHANAM if you are truthful.

Thanks

Salaams souls,

From lanes lex:

Ghanima = earning or a gain obtained without trouble/ spoils of war.

Baqarun = Cow/ Slit/ ripped/ slit/ cut/ devide.


Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 08:25:04 AM
Peace Enquirer

This issue is that he's using other "meanings" for the words in the aya. So he's not taking it at all metaphorically but rather using new definitions... which ideally is fine if something doesn't make sense the way it is traditionally seen. i have no problem with searching for parrallel analogies in verses either. But this aya is literally talking about body parts of cows and sheep and what parts were permissible to eat and what parts weren't. To say that alternative definitions would equal no fighting, is something incomprehensible given the arabic words in the specific aya. I really have no problem with the idea that we should "be fair and not take things of others". It's just that this aya has nothing to do with that in the slightest- even if we look at some kind of alternaitve definition. This is why I'm asking simple to show us the evidence. How does baqar and ghanam refer to the concept he came up with?

There's no attack here at all, I just need some evidence so we can logically reach a rational conclusion.

Peace All
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 08:32:04 AM
Peace Simple

Sorry I posted I think while you were psting too...so I didn't know you already answered  :D

Thanks for the speedy reply.

Unfortunately, you cannot use any verb forms of these root words because in the aya, it is in the noun form. Please notice the alif lam before baqar and ghanam. In the aya it is AL-BAQAR and AL-GHANAM, making it a definite noun... so it's the cow and the sheep.

I hope this clears things up

Peace All
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: enquirer on August 08, 2006, 08:37:08 AM
Peace soul. I understand your position,i just feel that one can explain things by metaphor,dictionaries or even by cross-referencing to real life experiences...I understand your need for evidence,thats natural...However in my experience we sometimes get defensive when we feel certain 'comfortable' understandings we have are 'threatened' by new or radical alternatives...When i first heard of people reading the quran without hadith i was unconvinced,then later when folks interpreted quran without 'literalism i was again unconvinced,now im at the stage where i dont even feel we need a book or god to be decent people..... 8)
Being a free-mind can be achieved when we let go of pre-conceptions,which are based on a need to be 'comfortable',and the need to have 'infallible' knowledge...
I feel 'reality' is half objective and half subjective....'Life is what you make it,but not completely'...
ps; sorry for the metaphysical stuff at the end... :)
pps; i feel the excessive use/reliance upon grammer,linguistics and verbal forms can distort the message of many books...
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 08, 2006, 08:39:54 AM
Sorry Br,

 with repsects

can't convince me as i believe the language has modified , developed after the quran and if anyone says men used to change into monkeys well i wouldn't couldn't accept it thanks though,men to monkeys  ;)...............

Salaams.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 08:49:41 AM
Peace Enquirer

I definitely agree with you that there are growing pains in letting go of blind dogma and embracing a new concept as the logical conclusion. I also agree with you that you can be a wonderful person and not believe in God or any book. Whether, you live a fullfilled life and go on to eternal bliss is another debate altogether.

I think you're right that trying to gain infallible knowledge on something is impossible. We as humans are limited in our capacity to understand everything all at once. It's a journey that never ends.

However, I need to tell you that I'm not trying to gain infallible knowledge or excessively rely on linguistics. I think it's crucial however to understand the words on a page if we are to discuss it at all. If it's not necessary to understand linguistics or grammar at any level, it would be very difficult to read any book or article or even a post.


Peace Simple

If you believe the quran was modified to make the verb into a noun, then peace be with you brother. I don't understand what you keep mentioning about men and monkeys honestly... I didn't see anything about monkeys in this verse either  :-\ but that's ok

Peace
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: enquirer on August 08, 2006, 08:54:07 AM
Easy soul. I do respect your manner of discussion and your open-ness...I also do agree with your point that some rudimentary knowledge of lingusitics is needed...
What place would you give metaphor in the quran,and what are the implications for grammer rules when one takes verses metaphorically? Thanks in advance...
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: idolfree1 on August 08, 2006, 09:06:51 AM
Peace be upon you all,

I also approach the verse about Jews being forbidden fat as metaphor also, but I dont understand it yet.

The God does not expect us to blindly believe some commandment, PROOF is required for all that we do. Why would the God command only a section of mankind to not eat the fat of an animal? What about the NON jews of that time period? Was the God condoning sectarinism?

I dont agree that "jews" are even being spoken of, I just am not sure of what its all about just yet.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 09:07:39 AM
Peace Enquirer

I believe parrallel analogies found in the quran is the miracle that makes quran so unique and could only be from Divine source.

I personally noticed this specifically with stories narrated in the quran. This is just from my own limited knowledge. Perhaps it could be found everywhere. However in regards to the stories, I believe they are literal but also have a parallel spiritual message that could only be understood if we take the meanings of the words metaphorically. It's like two meanings in one. More bang for your buck if you will  :D

In order to reach metaphorical conclusions, I think looking at root words for root meanings is beneficial. Again, I'm against this notion that the quran is a puzzle and we have to figure it out because it says something and means something else. But I do believe that the quran demands of us active thinking and active participation in reading it. We can't just passively read and the message just pops in our heads and we're done. So to a certain extent, understanding grammar and linguistics is mandatory. But we don't need to split hairs or make each verse into an unsolved mystery.
That's just my opinion

Peace
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 08, 2006, 09:22:34 AM
Peace Enquirer

I definitely agree with you that there are growing pains in letting go of blind dogma and embracing a new concept as the logical conclusion. I also agree with you that you can be a wonderful person and not believe in God or any book. Whether, you live a fullfilled life and go on to eternal bliss is another debate altogether.

I think you're right that trying to gain infallible knowledge on something is impossible. We as humans are limited in our capacity to understand everything all at once. It's a journey that never ends.

However, I need to tell you that I'm not trying to gain infallible knowledge or excessively rely on linguistics. I think it's crucial however to understand the words on a page if we are to discuss it at all. If it's not necessary to understand linguistics or grammar at any level, it would be very difficult to read any book or article or even a post.


Peace Simple

If you believe the quran was modified to make the verb into a noun, then peace be with you brother. I don't understand what you keep mentioning about men and monkeys honestly... I didn't see anything about monkeys in this verse either  :-\ but that's ok

Peace

well if there arn't monkeys in that ayah they are all over other ayah's , like 002.065 005.060 007.166
and who can say what other things there are :


men to pigs,
oceans splitting,
sticks to snakes
moon splitting.
................................you probably know the rest.

And Its all mistranslation.


Peace
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: mquran on August 08, 2006, 10:23:03 AM
Salaamun alaikum,

Quote
AB:bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

You're right. It's not about finding new concepts for the verses. It's about finding out original concepts of AQ and this is what Simple is doing. I may not agree with all of his conclusions, but he's asking some very deconstructive questions.

Quote
S2S:I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you really can't just pick an aya that doesn't make sense to you, and instead of trying to understand it, make up things. This is really not how deen works at all. If there are issues you have with quran I would suggest you try to research thru the real meaning, because there is a big danger in attributing falsehood to God's Word.

Respected sister, Simple's not making up things. What he's doing is rejecting the presupposed notions many of us take into AQ in our quest to understand it. Lets not forget that Allah doesn't disdain from using mathalan to teach us lessons (2/26).


Quote
These were dietary laws for the Jews in order to test them. Much like their test with the she-camel. Much like their test with the cow. It is to discern the faithful from the hypocrites.

The only way for us to corroborate this is through history, a big no-no when it comes to Quranic study.


Quote
Kyle:The God does not expect us to blindly believe some commandment, PROOF is required for all that we do. Why would the God command only a section of mankind to not eat the fat of an animal? What about the NON jews of that time period? Was the God condoning sectarinism?

Quite right. 'jew' is an interjected sunni term. AQ is about our lives now, not about a religious sect thousands of years ago.

Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: mquran on August 08, 2006, 10:28:34 AM
Quote
Enquirer :Easy peoples. I must say that simples' method of translation is one of the better methods on the forum...(relatively speaking.) Taking the quran literally results in many contradictions and problems...The chopping of hands,whippings and sticks turning into snakes are just a few examples of what happens with literalism...Sticking to literalism is a very perilous and harmful position... see 17:36

Show the contradictions. You've started a whole thread about this before, the believers totally rebutted you and now you're up with your lies again.


Quote
When i first heard of people reading the quran without hadith
25 years ago, don't forget.

Quote
i was unconvinced,then later when folks interpreted quran without 'literalism i was again unconvinced,

It's difficult to be convinced when you don't think about it.

Quote
now im at the stage where i dont even feel we need a book or god to be decent people.....

A decent person actually doesn't accuse without evidence, or is that ok in your book?Of course, once one gives up Allah, one can do as one pleases. Please don't keep up the pretense of being decent, its nauseating.


Quote
pps; i feel the excessive use/reliance upon grammer,linguistics and verbal forms can distort the message of many books...

Excessive LACK of knowledge is dangerous too.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 11:12:58 AM
Peace MQuran

Allow me to rephrase my statement. It is my opinion that Bro Simple is making up new meanings for this aya that is not based on metaphor. According to Bro Simple himself, he uses the dictionary to find another meaning to the same words. Therefore, he's not using the same definitions, only using them metaphorically instead of literally - he is using a whole new set of definitions. In other words, he's not saying cow symbolizes something else... he's saying cow isn't even the right definition.

Finding metaphors and mithaal like you stated, is 100% fine and I have no problem with it. If he told me he believes the cow symbolizes something else, all of my posts would be totally different. He's telling me the word Al-Baqar is a verb that means to cut.

I may be completely wrong in my original hypothesis that this aya is talking about Jews and their dietary laws. But the only way to discuss it is thru looking at the words and the grammatical structures of them. This is why I asked for his definitions of those two crucial words. And when we established that these 2 words are not verbs but are nouns, then according to him the quran was modified. That basically ends the debate with me, because we both must take the quran to be without error as a given for us to discuss anything in it. Or else anything I say will just be thrown out as a modification. It's completely fine if this is his belief. I would have liked to see a more fruitful discussion breaking down all the words in the aya instead of stopping at just those two... but it's better to leave it alone if it has the potential to create bad feelings between folks.

Just wanted to clarify my position.

Peace all

Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 11:20:50 AM
Peace

Just another note so that nobody misunderstands me: I also believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with searching for all the possible meanings for each and every word in the quran. But it must fit into the quran properly and not awkwardly and we must always be aware of grammar so that we choose the exact definition. MUDARRIS: is it to teach, a school, a student, or an instructor? The only way to know is to understand grammar rules.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: mquran on August 08, 2006, 11:25:46 AM
Quote
S2S:Allow me to rephrase my statement. It is my opinion that Bro Simple is making up new meanings for this aya that is not based on metaphor. According to Bro Simple himself, he uses the dictionary to find another meaning to the same words. Therefore, he's not using the same definitions, only using them metaphorically instead of literally - he is using a whole new set of definitions. In other words, he's not saying cow symbolizes something else... he's saying cow isn't even the right definition.


Right, I take your point here and sadly I lack the linguistic resource to answer you.

Quote
Finding metaphors and mithaal like you stated, is 100% fine and I have no problem with it. If he told me he believes the cow symbolizes something else, all of my posts would be totally different. He's telling me the word Al-Baqar is a verb that means to cut.

Right, clearly it's not a verb but a noun. You're right once again.



Quote
I may be completely wrong in my original hypothesis that this aya is talking about Jews and their dietary laws. But the only way to discuss it is thru looking at the words and the grammatical structures of them. This is why I asked for his definitions of those two crucial words. And when we established that these 2 words are not verbs but are nouns, then according to him the quran was modified. That basically ends the debate with me, because we both must take the quran to be without error as a given for us to discuss anything in it. Or else anything I say will just be thrown out as a modification. It's completely fine if this is his belief. I would have liked to see a more fruitful discussion breaking down all the words in the aya instead of stopping at just those two... but it's better to leave it alone if it has the potential to create bad feelings between folks.

AQ lays out the groundwork, if you like, as a prelude to the exercise of understanding. 'Alladhina haadu' isn't used in AQ anywhere as a religious sect during the time of Musa. Further, to typologise such people according to their heritage is contrary to teachings of AQ.

I consider AQ error-free and if one's understanding is incorrect, contradictions will appear. Such has been the case with much of my understanding over the years in salaat, zakaat, hajj etc.

I will try to work on Simple's explanation once I obtain more linguistic resources.

shukran wa salam.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 08, 2006, 11:38:36 AM
Peace Bro

Quote
I will try to work on Simple's explanation once I obtain more linguistic resources.

I would love to see your understanding and for all of us to work thru the aya step by step so that we can all raise our understanding to a new level.

Quote
'Alladhina haadu' isn't used in AQ anywhere as a religious sect during the time of Musa. Further, to typologise such people according to their heritage is contrary to teachings of AQ.

Already, I see I made a huge assumption based on traditional interpretations of the quran. This is why it's great to go thru it slowly. Maybe I made a million wrong assumptions and Bro Simple's translation is more accurate. Maybe we're all wrong and it's something else. The only way to know is to humor me and go thru it one by one  :D

Peace  ;)
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 08, 2006, 01:53:39 PM
Salaams Br ahmed,

5:60
   Say: “Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worst place and are more astray from the right path.”


What is this , a  metaphor - if so show me where it says its a metaphor - and don't say of things what Allah doesn't say of them.

 ;D

Salaams.

Peace bro

Who said that it is a metaphor, you?

Well the verse for me is never a metaphor, I believe Allah cursed some of the jews to monkeys and pigs, I believe Allah in anything He says, He told me 35 times in the Quran that He is able to do anything

Was that the answer you were expecting?

Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 08, 2006, 02:01:26 PM
Quote
AB:bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

Quote from: mquran
Salaamun alaikum,

Salam bro

Quote from: mquran
You're right. It's not about finding new concepts for the verses. It's about finding out original concepts of AQ and this is what Simple is doing.

And how do you know that you will find the original context?

Well the original context is in the very same book that is still preserved in its original language

Quote from: mquran
I may not agree with all of his conclusions, but he's asking some very deconstructive questions.

well, I see simple and his likes falling under the following verse:

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

[The Quran ; 5:41]

 يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لاَ يَحْزُنكَ الَّذِينَ يُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ آمَنَّا بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قُلُوبُهُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ هِادُواْ سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّاعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ آخَرِينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَاضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ وَمَن يُرِدِ اللّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَن تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللّهُ أَن يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (41)


-> See: ? they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts;?

Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 08, 2006, 02:10:47 PM
Sorry Br,

 with repsects

can't convince me as i believe the language has modified , developed after the quran and if anyone says men used to change into monkeys well i wouldn't couldn't accept it thanks though,men to monkeys  ;)...............

Salaams.

Well, you don't believe Allah then when He said the following:

1) 35 times that He is able to do anything
2) that He made some Jews to look like monkeys and pigs
?

well here is somthing for ya, Allah is telling us that He can make us look in any form He desires:

6- O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-
7- Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;
8- In whatever Form He wills, does He put thee together.

[The Quran ; 82:6-8]

 يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ مَا غَرَّكَ بِرَبِّكَ الْكَرِيمِ (6)
 الَّذِي خَلَقَكَ فَسَوَّاكَ فَعَدَلَكَ (7)
 فِي أَيِّ صُورَةٍ مَّا شَاء رَكَّبَكَ (8)


Now let me ask you :

What has seduced you  from the  Lord Most Beneficent not to believe Him when He says :   In whatever Form He wills, does He put thee together.?

Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 03:46:37 AM
Sorry Br,

 with repsects

can't convince me as i believe the language has modified , developed after the quran and if anyone says men used to change into monkeys well i wouldn't couldn't accept it thanks though,men to monkeys  ;)...............

Salaams.

Well, you donlt believe Allah then when He said the following:

1) 35 times that He is able to do anything
2) the He made some Jews to look like monkeys and pigs
?

well here is somthing for ya, Allah is telling us that He can put us look in any form He desires:

6- O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-
7- Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;
8- In whatever Form He wills, does He put thee together.

[The Quran ; 82:6-8]

 يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ مَا غَرَّكَ بِرَبِّكَ الْكَرِيمِ (6)
 الَّذِي خَلَقَكَ فَسَوَّاكَ فَعَدَلَكَ (7)
 فِي أَيِّ صُورَةٍ مَّا شَاء رَكَّبَكَ (8)


Now let me ask you :

What has seduced you  from the  Lord Most Beneficent not to believe Him when He says :   In whatever Form He wills, does He put thee together.?

Salam

Peace ahmed ,

I came across such a blatant degrading heathenish answer from an imam from my younger days.

What he said when I asked him a question was, "don't you know asking to many question can take you out of Islam"

What a nut he was.

Mind you I stopped asking questions, but only realized some time after that such people are blatantly unfortunate and consider their belief/ the way they understand their idol.


Salaams.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 09, 2006, 03:56:30 AM

Peace ahmed ,

I came across such a blatant degrading heathenish answer from an imam from my younger days.

What he said when I asked him a question was, "don't you know asking to many question can take you out of Islam"

What a nut he was.

Mind you I stopped asking questions, but only realized some time after that such people are blatantly unfortunate and consider their belief/ the way they understand their idol.


Salaams.


Peace bro

The imam you asked is actually 100% right, I believe 5:101-102 supports his view and I do support his views

however bro you are not asking questions, you are manipulating the Quran verses according to lanes, that's all bro

cheers
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 04:14:35 AM
To me likewise you are far from your maker also Br. but don't realise it.

Which is a sad sad thing.

And I thank the allmighty for showing me the idolatory ways of such people as the imam and thank him i didn't follow the imam.

Bye.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 09, 2006, 04:25:16 AM
Great bro

Now we should seek Allah to be the witness between us

Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 04:29:59 AM
Great bro

Now we should seek Allah to be the witness between us

Salam

you don't need seeking or anything as such,
He is a witness and allways so for all times



God Bless.

Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 09, 2006, 04:31:22 AM
I agree

Then Allah is the witness between us

Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 05:19:49 AM
 
Quote
Then

Why agree ?

Salaams.

Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 09, 2006, 05:25:00 AM
Quote
Then

Why agree ?

Salaams.




did you get what i mean or what bro?

far out mate

I agreed with your view of Allah being a wtiness all the time and we don't need to seek His witness, i. bloody e. I agreed that your statement is more accurate than mine

when I used "then" I meant this is how I should have said it after your better view of it

man please don't make it hard on me because I can make really hard on you and both of us will end up wasting our time

Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 05:32:29 AM
try it. Br.

Salaams.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 05:37:09 AM
Quote
Then

Why agree ?

Salaams.




did you get what i mean or what bro?

far out mate

I agreed with your view of Allah being a wtiness all the time and we don't need to seek His witness, i. bloody e. I agreed that your statement is more accurate than mine

when I used "then" I meant this is how I should have said it after your better view of it

man please don't make it hard on me because I can make really hard on you and both of us will end up wasting our time

Salam

Who is confused -read your post man!

Salaams.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 09, 2006, 05:39:58 AM
Peace Bro Simple

Quote
I came across such a blatant degrading heathenish answer from an imam from my younger days.

What he said when I asked him a question was, "don't you know asking to many question can take you out of Islam"

What a nut he was.

Mind you I stopped asking questions, but only realized some time after that such people are blatantly unfortunate and consider their belief/ the way they understand their idol.

Aaah I had the same experience! I used to go to this "Sunday School" it was such crap. I was something like 11 or 12 yrs old at the time. I felt really confused because I was raised at home as a God-Aloner using RK's old-version "The Golden Message" if anyone has heard of it. Anyway that "school" was absurdly sunni. I always asked why they tell us to do certain things that seemed so un-quranic to me. Then I was labelled the devil incarnate by the "teacher"  :D which is very funny if you get to know my personality lol
I remember she was explaining that we can't have this dessert many Egyptians make during Ramadan. It's dried fruits soaked in juice and left overnight or as long as possible. So this teacher tells us it's haram because it turns into wine
 :rotfl:
And when I told her wine takes longer than overnight to make, she told me but it begins the fermentation process. So I asked her well is it alcohol? She said no but we need to stay away from these things. So I said why not stay away from grape juice. And she said this is haram too.  :rotfl: so I asked why is grape juice haram
Then she turned to the class and said "take a good look at what just happened between me and her. This is how the devil behaves he keeps asking why why why"  ::) of course she never answered
Anyway tensions rose to a high level when they put aside the quran for "story-time" and made us memorize hadith for homework .

Sorry for the drawn-out story I just felt your pain for a minute there ;D

I disagree with you, Bro AB with all due respect. There is nothing wrong in asking questions. I would say the only stipulation would be that your intent is to gain more knowledge, even if the answer turns out to be the opposite of what you wanted/initially believed.

Peace All
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: simple on August 09, 2006, 05:48:44 AM
Nice going souls,

Quote
I just felt your pain for a minute there

I think it wasn't pain - but just a test to see when ahmed will become a tornado - he nearly did.



Salaams.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 09, 2006, 05:49:46 AM
Sister soul2squeeze

don't take my statement as general one covering every question, of course not, this is ridiculous to take it as such, i don't have to bloody explain eveything in details that I say, I thought most of us have enough IQ to get it with ease

I meant questions that has no answer, like:

why Allah does not forgive shirk?

why Allah need Angels?

why Allah need to torture us in Jahannam?

how Allah created Jesus with out a mother?

how Allah created Adam without both?

etc.

etc

now to ask your grape fruit question, sure that is an ok question

also mister simple is making it really hard by manipulating the Quran words, he is not even clever in doing as such and coming witn such laughable argument regarding the word Ghanam

so what is his question  exactly sister?

salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 09, 2006, 04:27:46 PM
Peace Ahmed

Quote
don't take my statement as general one covering every question, of course not, this is ridiculous to take it as such, i don't have to bloody explain eveything in details that I say, I thought most of us have enough IQ to get it with ease

I'm glad to see that's not what you meant. I don't know about you but when someone says a fanatical imam was right when he says asking too many questions leads to leaving Islam, then my comment really wasn't so ridiculous after all.

Perhaps you should explain your thoughts more clearly the first time, so that those of us with a lesser IQ could understand you ...

An extra advice, try phrasing your responses without getting personal because you really don't know me to make such passing comments without a second thought.


Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 09, 2006, 04:54:29 PM
Peace
Also I disagree that you can't ask those questions either. Those questions lead to great discussions and more knowledge on what the nature of angels is, what defines shirk, who goes to Johannam and why, to name a few. We may not ever come to an answer on some of those questions, but the journey to getting to an answer proves to be quite valuable.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: Danish on August 09, 2006, 05:18:32 PM
I meant questions that has no answer, like:

why Allah does not forgive shirk?

why Allah need Angels?

why Allah need to torture us in Jahannam?

how Allah created Jesus with out a mother?

how Allah created Adam without both?
All these questions and more can be answered if you knew who or what your "Allah" is?

Quote
also mister simple is making it really hard by manipulating the Quran words, he is not even clever in doing as such and coming witn such laughable argument
That is exactly what everyone does to this poor ancient book called Quran.
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on August 09, 2006, 06:13:23 PM
Quote from: soul2squeeze
Peace Ahmed

Peace sister

Quote
don't take my statement as general one covering every question, of course not, this is ridiculous to take it as such, i don't have to bloody explain eveything in details that I say, I thought most of us have enough IQ to get it with ease

Quote from: soul2squeeze
I'm glad to see that's not what you meant. I don't know about you but when someone says a fanatical imam was right when he says asking too many questions leads to leaving Islam, then my comment really wasn't so ridiculous after all.

I guess my question is why you took it that he was  a fanatic Imam, why not he was a reasonable one?

Simple didnlt tell us what questions he was asking that Imama anyway, so to build a jusgment over that Imam based on not even hearsay is very rediclulous, sorry sister

Quote from: soul2squeeze
Perhaps you should explain your thoughts more clearly the first time,

I guess so now

Quote from: soul2squeeze
so that those of us with a lesser IQ could understand you ...

I never used the word lesser, I only said low IQ I believe, however it was a joke, sorry

Quote from: soul2squeeze
An extra advice, try phrasing your responses without getting personal because you really don't know me to make such passing comments without a second thought.

sorry again, true I don't know you but true also that I respect you


Salam
Title: Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
Post by: soul2squeeze on August 09, 2006, 06:38:20 PM
Peace AB

Thank you for respecting me as I too respect you.  No problems 

 :handshake: