Free Minds

General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: /*JM*/ on June 05, 2006, 12:45:38 PM

Title: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: /*JM*/ on June 05, 2006, 12:45:38 PM
[20:12] : "I am your Lord, so take off your slippers, you are in the holy valley Tawa."

Does someone knows where this valley is ?

What is the meaning of this valley being holy ?

Looking forward for your opinions
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: idolfree1 on June 05, 2006, 01:23:29 PM
Peace be upon you,

The literal translation translates "tawa" as "wrapped WITHIN".

Musa was told to remove his shoes because this is not a physcial journey, it is a spiritual journey within.

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 07, 2006, 02:21:39 PM
[20:12] : "I am your Lord, so take off your slippers, you are in the holy valley Tawa."

Does someone knows where this valley is ?

What is the meaning of this valley being holy ?

Looking forward for your opinions

Peace bro

I know exactly where it is and ironically my brother had an amazing experience in that valley, it is located in Sinai "Egypt", my nrother is a resident doctor in that blessed area for the last 20  years, please google maps for Sinai to see where it is located exactly, the valley is a very popular tourist destination, and is a must tour if you will visit Egypt, because it consists of a group of mountains, it is sort of rugged and elevated area , see photos below:

(http://mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/Sinai/Sinai1.jpg)
(http://mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/Sinai/Sinai2.jpg)
(http://mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/Sinai/Sinai3.jpg)

Tourists who visit Egypt must visit and climb one of these blessed mountains in a tour that starts at about 2 AM to watch the sunrise from the summit at about 5 AM, an amazing sight if you ask me man, THIS IS A MUST SEE BY ALL

One day my brother and one of my friends took that tour to climb the mountain on foot, the route up will take about 2 to 3 hours, from the top all with cameras take some of the best shots/videos ever, just knowing that Moses was standing somewhere near by talking to Allah  makes a whole heap of difference,  any way my brother and my friend followed the tour line ?a very long line consists of tourists following a leader with sort of flash light? ?very dark indeed?, half way through my brother sort of wanted to leak ?lol?, however he forgot totally that he was walking in the BLESSED LAND where Moses was ordered to take off his shoe and walk bare foot in it due to ?how Tahirra it is?

My brother answered the call so he stopped following the line and quickly in the dark stopped and tried to leak, the other tourists including my friend continued on their climb up the rugged mountain, my brother on the other hand zipped it open and all of a sudden a lighting bolt smashed him cold on the ground hitting his front tooth on a rock breaking it into halves, you can call me a liar if you wish but Allah knows that this is a true story, I have photos up the mountain during the sunrise and his face is like being smashed by Tyson, he stood up quickly after loosing it for a few seconds and ran screaming calling my friend name who was a bit further up the mountain, anyway the rest is history to my brother and a warning to others

Sorry for the boring story bro but you can find more info about the Valley of Towa in here:

http://springtours.com/citysain.htm

Salam


Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 07, 2006, 02:50:21 PM
Hey JM

Here is the photo of my brother at the summit of the Valley of Towa, if you can notice that one tooth is missing, this was talken about 2 hours after the incident I mentioned earlier

(http://mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/sinai/004.jpg)

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 07, 2006, 03:00:48 PM
Peace,

The problem with taking the valley as literal is the taking of the slippers. You wear slippers so you don't damage your feet and to keep them as clean as possible. When you take off the sandals, you do this when you enter a place where the ground must be kept clean and free from outside dirt. Here Moses was asked to take off his sandals in the valley. So he's not entering a clean place where the outside dirt must be kept away. God doesn't care about dirt as He is above that, all the cleanness codes inside the Quran are for us, not because "God likes cleanness", all has a reason. So here then comes the question: If we take it literaly, why then has Moses to take off his sandals, where his feet were gonna be as dirty as his sandals? Not out of respect, as the respect of taking off your shoes is connected with that you respect the cleaness of a house/residence, so this taking off the sandals cannot be connected with respect.

So for me, the only thing left is that taking off the sandals is used metaphorically, and refers to that he arrived at the end of his journey, and can enter the house of prophethood.

As for the valley AB mentiones, in the old days there were also more then ten mountain sinai. So refering to names given by people is not that trustworthy.

Oh yeah, AB welcome back...............
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 07, 2006, 06:56:44 PM
You wear slippers so you don't damage your feet and to keep them as clean as possible.

LOL bro

can you please tell me how you can prove that we wear sandals to protect our feet, a verse form the Quran should be enough, thank you

When you take off the sandals, you do this when you enter a place where the ground must be kept clean and free from outside dirt.

well, we can p[erform salat while we are wearing sandals, so I donlt get your point exactly

Here Moses was asked to take off his sandals in the valley. So he's not entering a clean place where the outside dirt must be kept away.

LOL, thanks again bro for the laugh, so all the msajid are dirtytyt because we take oiff our shoes when we enter it, a new insight that is

God doesn't care about dirt as He is above that, all the cleanness codes inside the Quran are for us, not because "God likes cleanness", all has a reason. So here then comes the question: If we take it literaly, why then has Moses to take off his sandals, where his feet were gonna be as dirty as his sandals? Not out of respect, as the respect of taking off your shoes is connected with that you respect the cleaness of a house/residence, so this taking off the sandals cannot be connected with respect.

bro iot will be silly of me to get involove into this, you take it as you want and I will take it as I explained

So for me, the only thing left is that taking off the sandals is used metaphorically, and refers to that he arrived at the end of his journey, and can enter the house of prophethood.


hehe, I will warn you using the Quran


"La Taddirbo Lellah Al Amathal"

which means, do not associate metaphores to Allah that He never said himeself

As for the valley AB mentiones, in the old days there were also more then ten mountain sinai. So refering to names given by people is not that trustworthy.

oh yeh I',m conspiring with the egyptian government to promote tourism to egypt

Oh yeah, AB welcome back...............

cheers, glad to be back
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 07, 2006, 07:46:41 PM
Peace all

This idea that it is all a spiritual journey, adds a beautiful meaning to the message. I think it is in accordance with the quran. But I think the other words in the aya make this theory problematic.

How would you metaphorically understand a holy valley (el-wad el-mukkadas)?
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 12:07:46 AM
You wear slippers so you don't damage your feet and to keep them as clean as possible.

LOL bro

can you please tell me how you can prove that we wear sandals to protect our feet, a verse form the Quran should be enough, thank you

This is pure logic. Tell me then, why do you wear shoes?



When you take off the sandals, you do this when you enter a place where the ground must be kept clean and free from outside dirt.

well, we can perform salat while we are wearing sandals, so I donlt get your point exactly

What has this to do with salaat? This talks about any place. This is the house-rule almost everywhere on earth.



Here Moses was asked to take off his sandals in the valley. So he's not entering a clean place where the outside dirt must be kept away.

LOL, thanks again bro for the laugh, so all the msajid are dirtytyt because we take oiff our shoes when we enter it, a new insight that is

? I see you don't get the point. Why the need to take off sandals? People only take off shoes/sandals because they want to keep outside-dirt outside the place. Where is the need for that in an outside valley?



God doesn't care about dirt as He is above that, all the cleanness codes inside the Quran are for us, not because "God likes cleanness", all has a reason. So here then comes the question: If we take it literaly, why then has Moses to take off his sandals, where his feet were gonna be as dirty as his sandals? Not out of respect, as the respect of taking off your shoes is connected with that you respect the cleaness of a house/residence, so this taking off the sandals cannot be connected with respect.

bro iot will be silly of me to get involove into this, you take it as you want and I will take it as I explained.

This is normal definition, things have a clear reason and taking off shoes/sandals have clear non-mysterious reasons.



So for me, the only thing left is that taking off the sandals is used metaphorically, and refers to that he arrived at the end of his journey, and can enter the house of prophethood.


hehe, I will warn you using the Quran


"La Taddirbo Lellah Al Amathal"

which means, do not associate metaphores to Allah that He never said himeself

Ok, then explain why did he take of his sandals in a valley? Where is the need for that?



As for the valley AB mentiones, in the old days there were also more then ten mountain sinai. So refering to names given by people is not that trustworthy.

oh yeh I',m conspiring with the egyptian government to promote tourism to egypt

No AB, this is normal and can be seen allover the world. Egypt just took over the valley-name from the old people. If the old peoples didn't name the valley themselves Tuwa is something to be disproven. There used to be more ten different Mount Sinai. One survived because of The Isrealy people were the only ones that had historical bond to the name. Their Mount Sinai is close to Jerusalem, while in the Bible story they were supposed to be still far away from Jerusalem. Same as calling the Dome of the Rock Al-aqsa. This has nothing with conspiring but with that the later people take the old name serious and don't question if the old people really meant that it was the real mount or valley...

Peace
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 01:08:24 AM
Quote from: arnoldyasin
This is pure logic. Tell me then, why do you wear shoes?

I wear shoes because I learnt to wear shoes since I was born, now you tell me why many humans don?t wear shoes at all?

Quote from: arnoldyasin
What has this to do with salaat? This talks about any place. This is the house-rule almost everywhere on earth.

Is the act of taking off the shoe as Moses were ordered when he entered the valley of Towa sounds like humans taking off their shoes when they enter the Masajid?

Sounds the same to me, I take it a matter of respect, how do you take it?

Quote from: arnoldyasin
? I see you don't get the point. Why the need to take off sandals? People only take off shoes/sandals because they want to keep outside-dirt outside the place. Where is the need for that in an outside valley?

the valley is muqaddas and therefore it sounds to me as a matter of respect exactly like entering the masajid

Quote from: arnoldyasin
This is normal definition, things have a clear reason and taking off shoes/sandals have clear non-mysterious reasons.

Well, a child will get it that it is  a matter of respect

Quote from: arnoldyasin
Ok, then explain why did he take of his sandals in a valley? Where is the need for that?

You dodged the strong argument against the likes of you who invent similitudes and associate then to Allah, again, have some sense please and fear the warning from Allah directed to you and the likes of you:

74- Invent not similitudes for Allah: for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

75- Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.

76- Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?

[The Quran ; 16:74-76]

فَلاَ تَضْرِبُواْ لِلّهِ الأَمْثَالَ إِنَّ اللّهَ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ (74)
ضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً عَبْدًا مَّمْلُوكًا لاَّ يَقْدِرُ عَلَى شَيْءٍ وَمَن رَّزَقْنَاهُ مِنَّا رِزْقًا حَسَنًا فَهُوَ يُنفِقُ مِنْهُ سِرًّا وَجَهْرًا هَلْ يَسْتَوُونَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ (75)
وَضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً رَّجُلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا أَبْكَمُ لاَ يَقْدِرُ عَلَىَ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ كَلٌّ عَلَى مَوْلاهُ أَيْنَمَا يُوَجِّههُّ لاَ يَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ هَلْ يَسْتَوِي هُوَ وَمَن يَأْمُرُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَهُوَ عَلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ (76)


-> Now do you have enough common sense to understand 16:74-76 or you need a hand?

Quote from: arnoldyasin
No AB, this is normal and can be seen allover the world. Egypt just took over the valley-name from the old people. If the old peoples didn't name the valley themselves Tuwa is something to be disproven. There used to be more ten different Mount Sinai. One survived because of The Isrealy people were the only ones that had historical bond to the name. Their Mount Sinai is close to Jerusalem, while in the Bible story they were supposed to be still far away from Jerusalem. Same as calling the Dome of the Rock Al-aqsa. This has nothing with conspiring but with that the later people take the old name serious and don't question if the old people really meant that it was the real mount or valley...
Peace

Damn bro, I don?t talk politics

Cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 01:25:36 AM
Peace,

This is directly what i mean. You don't understand that taking of the shoes in a masjid has to do wth not taking dirt into the masjid or a house. The 'showing respect' is showing respect for not wanting to dirty up the floor where people put there fore-heads on the floor, so the respect is linked with hygene. Everything has a direct reason. And i advise you to investigate more what are the psychological reasons for terms as 'respect' and 'holy'. That a kids takes it as respect is because a kid doesn't look further then it's nose and doesn't think where the feeling of respect comes from. You tell me: Why is taking of your shoes/sandals out of respect? And when is respect given and what is it's source and function? There are bases behind the term respect. And there as much people wearing sandals/shoes as not wearing shoes/sandals which a lot of times is also connected with social wealth.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 01:38:49 AM
Peace,

This is directly what i mean. You don't understand that taking of the shoes in a masjid has to do wth not taking dirt into the masjid or a house. The 'showing respect' is showing respect for not wanting to dirty up the floor where people put there fore-heads on the floor, so the respect is linked with hygene. Everything has a direct reason. And i advise you to investigate more what are the psychological reasons for terms as 'respect' and 'holy'. That a kids takes it as respect is because a kid doesn't look further then it's nose and doesn't think where the feeling of respect comes from. You tell me: Why is taking of your shoes/sandals out of respect? And when is respect given and what is it's source and function? There are bases behind the term respect. And there as much people wearing sandals/shoes as not wearing shoes/sandals which a lot of times is also connected with social wealth.

bro don't assume things and associate them to me as you do with the metaphores that you associate to Allah and He never said that it is a metaphore as as well warned you agaisnts such ignorant act , i never denied what you say regarding the dirty shoe, all I said it is a matter of respect to take the shoe in a mosque as well on the valley of Towa, but let me corner you then, how the hell you know the the foot is clean if you say the shoes must not be clean?, i need a scientific answer please

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 01:49:06 AM
Peace,

On what is this respect based? What are the reasons behind this respect? The respect people show by taking off shoes is based on respecting not to take outside dirt into the residence. Why would God demand a respect based on hygene? I believe all will agree that you take of your shoes so you don't take outside dirt into the house. Taking off your shoes/sandals refers to having reached your destination.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 04:09:34 AM
Peace,

On what is this respect based? What are the reasons behind this respect? The respect people show by taking off shoes is based on respecting not to take outside dirt into the residence. Why would God demand a respect based on hygene? I believe all will agree that you take of your shoes so you don't take outside dirt into the house. Taking off your shoes/sandals refers to having reached your destination.

bro, before i go to bed, remember this, it is you who is not happy with what Allah said to Moses then you made up a metaphore and associated it to Allah while He never suggested that, how blind you are man, anyway bro this is called kufr

good night
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 04:14:42 AM
Peace,

Not happy? No, i'm trying to understand it. This is called gaining knowledge. Answer my questions then. Sleep well...
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 04:21:19 AM
Peace,

Not happy? No, i'm trying to understand it. This is called gaining knowledge. Answer my questions then. Sleep well...

fine, gain the knoweldge you want but in the process don't associate lias to Allah, Allah described those who associate metaohores to Him while He never said so, as liars and I'm certain this applies to you. i understand that you don't do it delibertly rather ignorantly

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 04:25:09 AM
Peace,

You have your right on your opinion. And i can see you ignore certain factors. Sleep well...
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 07:54:54 AM
Peace
The idea of taking off shoes out of a sign of respect is cultural. For example, here in the U.S. nobody takes off their shoes when they enter someone's house. The home owners don't even take off their shoes. In fact, when I ask someone to please take off their shoes before proceeding to enter my home, they look at me funny. So I think you're taking this coming from the culture you were raised in. When God commands Moses to take off his sandals, I believe it is directly linked with the word holy in the same aya.  And dirt by the way is not bad. If we don't have water to wash ourselves we can use dirt for ablution.
Also, if we are to take the translation idolfree1 gave us for the word tuwa as wrapped within, perhaps it is symbolic to take off something. We wear clothes and shoes as a sort of crutch. To cover ourselves, to appear taller, shorter, thinner, fatter, muscular. Perhaps it has the connotation of "Come as you are". Moses felt inadequate in speech and seemed to have low self-esteem. He even told his Creator , "NO i can't do it! i need my brother he can speak better!" Perhaps it was a way to show you are accepted with any imperfection you may have. His hand turned white without any imperfection also ties into that explanation - that God will perfect him if any imperfections should arise. Again this is just my opinion. Most likely it has more of a link with the word holy than anything else.
I still didn't get an explanation to my question by the way. If it was just a spiritual journey why mention a valley?
Peace all
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 08:01:01 AM
 A valley is between to high points, and is hidden between those points, but i also still need to understand more. And also 'holy' is determined by the viewer. For a christian, a statue of jesus is holy, for a Muslim it is not. So holy is also determined by the view point.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 08:11:42 AM
Peace bro arnold

I like the connotation of the valley you mentioned. It shows alot of symbolism. My question to you then is why can't God with all His infinite wisdom, create stories with layer upon layer of meaning? Could it be that the holy valley is both physical and at the same time symbolic, while also being allegorical to parallel his spiritual journey? I tend to believe that things mentioned in the quran have more than one explanation. For the simple person, it will convey a message and for a deep introspector, it would have a deeper meaning but still along the same lines.
As for the term holy, I agree with you. What is holy to one may not be holy to another. But given that neither a Christian nor a Muslim said that line, and that it was God that stated it, I believe the valley is objectively holy. Whether we believe in it or not it will remian holy.
Peace all
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 08, 2006, 08:31:36 AM
Peace,

Yes, i have the same view on the Quran, that it has multiple layers and that verses can mean multiple things. As for the 'holy' in this verse. I believe it was called holy because of what was gonna happen there, so for that moment it was holy for the whole humanity.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 09:14:23 AM
Peace

Quote
As for the 'holy' in this verse. I believe it was called holy because of what was gonna happen there, so for that moment it was holy for the whole humanity.

I agree. Good explanation
Peace
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: simple on June 08, 2006, 11:17:30 AM
Salaams all,

Using quranic dictionary by Omar:

Naala = a metaphorical expression for making the heart vacant from care for family and property. The shoes signify the relations with family and the community.

And remember he ran away after taking a life, so essentially two things where keeping him away from his people:

 20:12
Verily I am your Lord make yourself detached from responsibility and from compensation due for life the sacred both.

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 01:20:08 PM
Peace Simple

I never heard of this definition. The dictionary i used only shows that it means sandal or a leather sole. the root form of the word is nun ayn lam if that helps
Peace all
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 01:54:09 PM
Peace,

You have your right on your opinion. And i can see you ignore certain factors. Sleep well...

Salam

I'm glad that my opinion is nothing but the literal meaning of the Quran, at least on the JD when I'm questioned about my ego, i will have a strong argument and as you know Allah is 100% Just, my argument is simply Allah didn't say it is a metaphore like He has done with many other metaphores He mentioned in the Quran, as well Allah has warned me of the followings:

1) To say about Allah things that He never said about Himself (40:35)
2) To associate metaphores to Allah that He never mentioned Himself (16:74)

see how strong my defence will be

on the other hand, I can see you on the JD red faced and very embarassed indeed

therefore you need to respond to at least 16:74 before i listen to your non sense regarding the lies you say about Allah

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: zenje on June 08, 2006, 02:19:17 PM
 :welcome: back AB
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 02:25:45 PM
Peace AB

I may be wrong but doesn't 16:74 mean: Do not make metaphors about God?

fala tadrebo lellah el amthaala enn allaha ya3lamo w antom la ta3lamoon

In other words don't say something like God is like an old wise man (aootho bellah)
Or did I mistranslate?
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 08, 2006, 02:27:47 PM
Peace Ahmed, All,

First, I hope your trip was enjoyable.

You quoted 16:74 but did not quote 16:73. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 2 ayat connected?

Transliteration Fala tadriboo lillahi al-amthala inna Allaha yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona
Literal So do not give the examples/proverbs to God, that God knows and you do not know.
Free-Minds So do not give parables to God. God knows while you do not know.
Rashad Khalifa Therefore, do not cite the examples for GOD; GOD knows while you do not know.
Yusuf Ali Invent not similitudes for Allah: for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
Shakir Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know.
Pickthal So coin not similitudes for Allah. Lo! Allah knoweth; ye know not.
Arberry So strike not any similitudes for God; surely God knows, and you know not.

If this is the case, then the context of 16:73 is vital to understanding 16:74.

16:73 And they serve besides God that which does not and cannot possess anything of the provisions from the sky or the land.

In conclusion, it seems that God is warning people not to make metaphors or similitudes in describing God. It doesn't seem to say that we are not to take any ayat metaphorically.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 02:28:24 PM
:welcome: back AB

thank you bro

glad to be back to this great board

peace
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Lobster on June 08, 2006, 04:05:32 PM
peace AB,

welcome back.

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5984.0
please answer this young man's question.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 06:23:59 PM
Quote from: Tay
Peace Ahmed, All,

Peace mate

Quote from: Tay
First, I hope your trip was enjoyable.

It was but also very exhausting though I recovered Alhamdullellah

Quote from: Tay
You quoted 16:74 but did not quote 16:73. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 2 ayat connected?

Of course I didn?t quote 16:73 because I can?t see any connection or very lil if there is any, but I?m open to listen to your view on how they are connected, but don?t you agree that 16:74 is more connected to 16:75 and 16:76?

Quote from: Tay
Transliteration Fala tadriboo lillahi al-amthala inna Allaha yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona
Literal So do not give the examples/proverbs to God, that God knows and you do not know.
Free-Minds So do not give parables to God. God knows while you do not know.
Rashad Khalifa Therefore, do not cite the examples for GOD; GOD knows while you do not know.
Yusuf Ali Invent not similitudes for Allah: for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
Shakir Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know.
Pickthal So coin not similitudes for Allah. Lo! Allah knoweth; ye know not.
Arberry So strike not any similitudes for God; surely God knows, and you know not.

If this is the case, then the context of 16:73 is vital to understanding 16:74.

Brother Tay, while you have not added anything really, to bring a list of different translations is not a strong argument against the Arabic Quran if you ask me, however let?s analyse each one of the above:

1- Literal So do not give the examples/proverbs to God, that God knows and you do not know.
Ahmed says: the key word is لِلّهِ , ?To Allah? pronounced ?Lillah?, and clearly it is something that belongs to Allah, NOT ABOUT ALLAH. We have zillions of examples in the Quran that will confirm this crystal clear fact that ?Lillah? means ?To Allah?, or ?Belongs to Allah?, also the second part of the verse as understood literally :? that God knows and you do not know? must be considered because it is the reason of the warning at the first part of the verse, so if the first part is about Allah, then the second part should be understood as ?because Allah knows about Himself and you don?t know about Him?, hhhhhmmmmm, surely does not make any sense, we know that Allah knows about Himself and everything in the heaven and earth, what is new here?, and He also told us there is nothing like Him:

(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

[The Quran ; 42:11]

 فَاطِرُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَمِنَ الْأَنْعَامِ أَزْوَاجًا يَذْرَؤُكُمْ فِيهِ لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ (11)

-> See, لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ , ? there is nothing whatever like unto Him?

-> Another possible hint, in 16:74 we read فَلاَ تَضْرِبُواْ لِلّهِ الأَمْثَالَ , translated as ? Invent not similitudes for Allah?, the similitudes may NOT be about Allah because it is plural ?Amthal?, which contradicts the Tawheed message of the Quran about Allah, therefore it can be plural if the meaning is about inventing many metaphors and associating them to Allah as if He intended to it be that way without telling us as such.

Let?s look at a few examples to the very important key word ?Lillah? ?To Allah?:


Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,

[The Quran ; 1:2]

 الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (2)

-> See, Praise be to Allah, ?Lillah?, للّهِ , not Praise be about Allah


Say: To Allah belongs exclusively (the right to grant) intercession: to Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: In the End, it is to Him that ye shall be brought back.

[The Quran ; 39:44]

 قُل لِّلَّهِ الشَّفَاعَةُ جَمِيعًا لَّهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ (44)

-> Again, Intercession belongs to Allah, ?Lillah?, للّهِ , not Intercession be about Allah.


Say: To whom belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth? Say: To Allah. He hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) Mercy. That He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment, there is no doubt whatever. It is they who have lost their own souls, that will not believe.

[The Quran ; 6:12]

 قُل لِّمَن مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ قُل لِلّهِ كَتَبَ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ الرَّحْمَةَ لَيَجْمَعَنَّكُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ الَّذِينَ خَسِرُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ فَهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (12)

-> And again, All that is in the heavens and on earth belong to Allah, ?Lillah?, للّهِ , not  All that is in the heavens and on earth be about Allah.

There are zillions of examples but that should be enough to prove that the ?Amthal? ?Metaphors?  mentioned in 16:74 is about inventing metaphors to Allah, NOT ABOUT ALLAH

Looking at the other translations and realizing the above logical context we can take it that most of the translations are accurate:

2- Free-Minds So do not give parables to God. God knows while you do not know.

Ahmed says: sure and I agree that it is about parables to Allah and not parables about Allah because Allah knows when it is a parable or when it is not, and we sure don?t know that, this is obvious because He is the one talking in the Quran not us.

3- Rashad Khalifa Therefore, do not cite the examples for GOD; GOD knows while you do not know.

Ahmed says: sure and I agree that it is about examples for Allah and not parables about Allah  because Allah knows when it is an example or when it nis not and we sure don?t know that, this is obvious because He is the one talking in the Quran not us.

4- Yusuf Ali Invent not similitudes for Allah: for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Ahmed says: can?t agree more

5- Shakir Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know.

Ahmed says: Mister Shakir went too far in here, he translated it as likenesses (plural) to Allah (singular), not sure how this will work with him if Allah told us in 42:11, لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ , ? there is nothing whatever like unto Him? and as you can see Allah used the singular word ?Shai? as an example of the likeness of Him that does not exist in the human world., Mister Shakir translation to 16:74 should be dismissed

6- Pickthal So coin not similitudes for Allah. Lo! Allah knoweth; ye know not.

Ahmed says, yeh that?s right we can not coin similitudes for Allah as He makes them Himself as He did many times in the Quran, in fact straight after 16:74, in 16:75 Allah gave us a parable then again in 16:76 Allah gave us another parable as we will see later

7- Arberry So strike not any similitudes for God; surely God knows, and you know not.

Ahmed says: fine if he wants to translate it that literal ?strike? as long as he meant that we should not invent parables for Allah because Allah does this for Himself as He did in 16:75 and 16:76 and many other locations in the Quran

Now you think that 16:73 is related to this warning in 16:74, let?s see:

Quote from: Tay
16:73 And they serve besides God that which does not and cannot possess anything of the provisions from the sky or the land.

In conclusion, it seems that God is warning people not to make metaphors or similitudes in describing God.

It can?t be because He told us that there is nothing like Him as well He ?Darab? for us two metaphors in 16:75 and 16:76, how come you can?t see that?, well you see what you want to see at the end of the day and

To be continued......
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 06:24:20 PM

Quote from: Tay
It doesn't seem to say that we are not to take any ayat metaphorically.

Of course it does warn us from doing as such because if we do we will be saying lies about Allah as we will see in another comment but let?s look at 16:74-76 again:

74- Invent not similitudes for Allah: for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

75- Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.

76- Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?

[The Quran ; 16:74-76]

فَلاَ تَضْرِبُواْ لِلّهِ الأَمْثَالَ إِنَّ اللّهَ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ (74)
ضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً عَبْدًا مَّمْلُوكًا لاَّ يَقْدِرُ عَلَى شَيْءٍ وَمَن رَّزَقْنَاهُ مِنَّا رِزْقًا حَسَنًا فَهُوَ يُنفِقُ مِنْهُ سِرًّا وَجَهْرًا هَلْ يَسْتَوُونَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ (75)
وَضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً رَّجُلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا أَبْكَمُ لاَ يَقْدِرُ عَلَىَ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ كَلٌّ عَلَى مَوْلاهُ أَيْنَمَا يُوَجِّههُّ لاَ يَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ هَلْ يَسْتَوِي هُوَ وَمَن يَأْمُرُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَهُوَ عَلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ (76)

-> 16:74, فَلاَ تَضْرِبُواْ لِلّهِ الأَمْثَالَ , ?Invent not similitudes for Allah?, we have 3 keywords in here: ?Tadribbo?, ?Lillah? and ?Amthal?:

?Tadribbo?, means ?to strike? but in the context with the word ?Amthal?, it means ?to create metaphors?, considering the word ?Lillah? with the context, then it means ?to create not metaphors to Allah or for Allah?, for the ones who say this verse means about Allah then they have to answer the second half of the verses, إِنَّ اللّهَ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ , ? for Allah knoweth, and ye know not ?, now we have a problem in hand an intellect problem that is, so they take the warning because Allah knows about Himself and we don?t know about Allah, hhhhmmmmm, man this is clearly confusing

-   firstly Allah knows about Himself and everything in the heaven and earth
-   secondly Allah told us a lot about Himself and one of the things He told us that there is nothing like Him
-   thirdly Allah told us that there are humans who knows Allah very well ?Rasikhoon Fi Al Ilm? so how come he tells us that we don?t know Him in 16:74?


-> When we read 16:75 everything should be clear regarding 16:74, it starts like this: ضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً , ? Allah sets forth the Parable of?..?, it is pronounced like this ?Daraba Allahu Mathalan??, for God sake we have almost the same three keywords ?Darab?, ?Allah? and ?Mathal?, can you spot the difference?, well the difference is like this:

1) Allah is warning us in 16:74 NOT to ?Naddrib Amthal to Him?
2) In 16:75 Allah ?Darab a Mathal?
3) and again in 16:76 Allah ?Darab another Mathal?

-> 16:76 starts like this: وَ ضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً , ? Allah sets forth another Parable of?..?, it is pronounced like this ?Wa Daraba Allahu Mathalan??, again almost the same key words

Considering the more obvious meaning we see that everything makes sense, Allah is warning against inventing Amthal and associate it to Him, because He knows better when it should be a metaphor or not and to confirm that in the following two verses He gave us two examples of a metaphor that He told us in advance that ?Here is a parable?.?

The problem for those who set forth parables and say Allah meant as such is huge and I?m sure that they don?t realize their fatal mistake but that will be another comment that I will  add later inshaallah

Salam Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 06:26:27 PM
Peace AB

I may be wrong but doesn't 16:74 mean: Do not make metaphors about God?

fala tadrebo lellah el amthaala enn allaha ya3lamo w antom la ta3lamoon

In other words don't say something like God is like an old wise man (aootho bellah)
Or did I mistranslate?

Peace bro

I hope I have responded to your question in my long comment

Cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 08, 2006, 06:43:26 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Thank you for the detailed reply.

Quote
Of course I didn?t quote 16:73 because I can?t see any connection or very lil if there is any, but I?m open to listen to your view on how they are connected, but don?t you agree that 16:74 is more connected to 16:75 and 16:76?

I'd say they're all connected.

Quote
to bring a list of different translations is not a strong argument against the Arabic Quran if you ask me, however let?s analyse each one of the above

Bro, I just wanted you to focus on the words I underlined, which you ignored. You went on about everything except what I underlined. Perhaps some jetlag?  ;)

In any case, let's move on, shall we. The one thing you did not address...the use of the word "therefore" or "so" that begins ayah 16:74. This is translated from "fa". This is certainly a connector, correct?

Let's keep this one point at a time for the sake of the readers and my own mind.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 07:13:30 PM
Peace Tay

I agree that I haven?t addressed the ?Fa? ?Therefore?, I was actually working on it before you posted your comment but got interrupted by a friend, any way the ?Fa? is dealt like the ?Wa? i.e. it can be a start of a new and an independent sentence, here is a few examples from the Quran "Please read the corresponding English translation:


 وَهَدَيْنَاهُ النَّجْدَيْنِ (10)
 فَلَا اقْتَحَمَ الْعَقَبَةَ (11)

[The Quran ; 90:10-11]


 بَلَى إِنَّ رَبَّهُ كَانَ بِهِ بَصِيرًا (15)
 فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ (16)

[The Quran ; 48:15:16]


 وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَبَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ قَرْيَةٍ نَذِيرًا (51)
 فَلَا تُطِعِ الْكَافِرِينَ وَجَاهِدْهُم بِهِ جِهَادًا كَبِيرًا (52)

[The Quran ; 25:51-52]

-> See, and I have more than 50 other examples to show you that the ?Fa? can be used easy as a start of a new independent sentence exactly like the "Wa", therefore to tran slate it as ?Therefore? is a case of Arabic language ignorance, that?s all

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 08, 2006, 07:24:38 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Why is it Arabic language ignorance? If you were a translator, how would you decide whether or not to translate "fa" as "therefore" or not? Furthermore, in the examples you gave, it is true that the sentences are new, however, they are ceratinly connected to the previous sentences. This, I think, only further strengthens my point.

Peace,
Tay

p.s. if you could provide a use of the term "fa" that DID NOT connect two sentences or phrases, then you would have an argument.

(edited to add p.s.)
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 07:36:37 PM
Peace Ahmed,

You made a very thorough analysis that I'm still tackling.
You made one interesting point that caught my eye-
Quote
?Tadribbo?, means ?to strike? but in the context with the word ?Amthal?, it means ?to create metaphors?, considering the word ?Lillah? with the context, then it means ?to create not metaphors to Allah or for Allah?,

It would then follow logically that if we're not creating metaphors, we're safe.  I would say investigating the quran for allegorical meanings that coincide with the message is quite different from creating new story lines in order to understand the message. If I deeply investigated the reference of Moses in the holy valley of Tuwa, I'm not creating anything but rather discovering. If I make up a new story about Moses having coffee with his brother and along came a burning bush and call it all one big metaphor just so others won't reject it, I'd be guilty of the above aya you mentioned.
Peace
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 07:59:50 PM
Peace Ahmed,

You made a very thorough analysis that I'm still tackling.
You made one interesting point that caught my eye-
Quote
“Tadribbo”, means “to strike” but in the context with the word “Amthal”, it means “to create metaphors”, considering the word “Lillah” with the context, then it means “to create not metaphors to Allah or for Allah”,

It would then follow logically that if we're not creating metaphors, we're safe.  I would say investigating the quran for allegorical meanings that coincide with the message is quite different from creating new story lines in order to understand the message. If I deeply investigated the reference of Moses in the holy valley of Tuwa, I'm not creating anything but rather discovering. If I make up a new story about Moses having coffee with his brother and along came a burning bush and call it all one big metaphor just so others won't reject it, I'd be guilty of the above aya you mentioned.
Peace

peace bro

yes mate, it is the most safe path is to not to invent any metaphires and associate that cojecture to Allah, because He never said as such, also He always tells us in advance that here is a metaphor, so why following guesses?

my concern is regarding those who say that the story of Moses is a metaphor, or part of it like removing his shoe, well if that ios the case then the fire was a metaphor, his white hand was a metaphor and the snake was a metaphor and all the humans who believe in the Quran are being deceived by their god because all these were metaphores and he never told us a s such but he selected a few other things that are obviously metaphores and told us in advance "here is a metaphor", well the complication is now like this, we can not really know for certain which one is a metaphor if the message is that encrypted

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 08, 2006, 08:18:30 PM
Peace AB

Why can't it be both? In other words, why can't it be both physical with archeological sites and also contain symbolism that reflects a parallel spiritual journey? I think it only adds depth to the meaning of the example.  Anyone can tell a story, but to show an example to mankind that has physically happened and symbolically reflects spiritual meanings, while staying in line with the overall message, that  also follows a rhyme, has a mathematical code embedded into it, all while referring to a miriad of sciences, I believe can only be the work of our Creator. Praise be to God. It only adds to the beauty of the quran to discover spiritual meanings to the examples set forth in the quran. Nobody is adding or taking away anything from the story but simply pointing out yet another dimension. Would you agree with that?
Peace
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 08, 2006, 08:35:11 PM
Peace bro

Please man don't confuse me, the story happened for real because Allah never told us here is a metaphor, how you want to understand it is now up to you, and how you learn lessons from it is also up to you, I myself careless of any lesson regading taking off the shoe, all I care about that the story happened exactly as Allah said it

thanks
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 09, 2006, 08:00:55 AM
Peace Ahmed,

I have a few questions that may help in our mutual understanding of each other:

41:11 Then He turned to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: "Come both, willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come willingly."

Did the heavens and the earth "speak" to God in the Arabic tongue as described in this ayah?
If so, please explain how a gas and a planet can speak.
If not, then please explain why you've chosen to accept this metaphor when God didn't tell us it is a metaphor.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 09, 2006, 06:02:02 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Peace bro

I have a few questions that may help in our mutual understanding of each other:

Sure mate, i would like to understand the mates I converse with as much as I want them to understand where I'm coming from

41:11 Then He turned to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: "Come both, willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come willingly."

Did the heavens and the earth "speak" to God in the Arabic tongue as described in this ayah?

Well, did the verse said the language they used?, NO IT DIDN'T, the verse is a mere record about what happened without going into that details you are looking for, these details does not concern me the slightest, it makes no difference to me what language they used hence i don't need to know it neither I have to know it, what is important is this, if I suggest any language that they used then my suggestion is nothing but conjecture and surely Allah only knows what language they used, frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

If so, please explain how a gas and a planet can speak.

for me, i can't really know that the case was "If so" or "If not so", it is a mere record told to me by Allah and I will take what He said without adding/removing anything to what He said

If not, then please explain why you've chosen to accept this metaphor when God didn't tell us it is a metaphor.

Bro, did i say that verse is a metaphor?, NEVER EVER, for me the verse can't be a metaphor for three reasons:

1) Allah didn't say in advance that it is a metaphor
2) The heaven and earth which were created by Allah may have the ability to talk but we just don't know how nor we can understand what we hear from them
3) the verse does not have any hint that conclusively and logically confirm that it is a metaphor

Just for your knoweldge and I stated this many times already, I take many verses in the Quran as metaphores, but only if any of the following exists:

1) Allah said in advance "Here is a parable"
2) The verse has enough logic and common sense to conclusively confirm that it is a metaphor

Peace,
Tay

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 09, 2006, 06:04:21 PM
p.s. if you could provide a use of the term "fa" that DID NOT connect two sentences or phrases, then you would have an argument.


Peace bro

haven;t i done this already?

i posted three x 2 verses, in each case the two verses are not connected

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 10, 2006, 09:51:42 AM
Peace Ahmed,

You stated:
Quote
frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

I respect your opinion, but understand that this suggestion of yours indicates a symbolic understanding of the text. The text clearly states that God spoke to the heavens(as gas) and the earth. The text clearly states that they both responded by saying, "We come willingly". If they didn't actually say these words, then the text is symbolic of something else entirely.

What is symbolism?
1 : the art or practice of using symbols especially by investing things with a symbolic meaning or by expressing the invisible or intangible by means of visible or sensuous representations: as a : artistic imitation or invention that is a method of revealing or suggesting immaterial, ideal, or otherwise intangible truth or states b : the use of conventional or traditional signs in the representation of divine beings and spirits

Quote
for me, i can't really know that the case was "If so" or "If not so", it is a mere record told to me by Allah and I will take what He said without adding/removing anything to what He said

OK

Quote
Just for your knoweldge and I stated this many times already, I take many verses in the Quran as metaphores, but only if any of the following exists:

1) Allah said in advance "Here is a parable"
2) The verse has enough logic and common sense to conclusively confirm that it is a metaphor

Excellent. I approach it the same way. I guess we just have different versions of logic and common sense. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Quote
i posted three x 2 verses, in each case the two verses are not connected


Actually, all your examples show "fa" connected one sentence to the next. Look:

90:10 And shown him the two highways?
90:11 But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.

See, there is a connection. He was shown 2 ways, BUT he avoided the harder path. 90:11 cannot stand on it's own because it is referencing 90:10.

90:10 = he was shown 2 paths
90:11 = he quickly chose the easy one

The same with your other examples. The "fa" connects one sentence to the other.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 10, 2006, 05:19:04 PM
Quote from: Tay
Peace Ahmed,

Peace Mate,

Quote from: Tay
You stated:
Quote
frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

I respect your opinion, but understand that this suggestion of yours indicates a symbolic understanding of the text.

Thanks, but again please don?t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ? and used a totally different method of communication?, now for you to consider that the only way of talking is pushing the air through the throats, then you have limited the ability of Allah and the way He can talk and the ways He can make His creatures talk, for me anything is possible when it comes to the Creator, i.e. He can produce talks without having throats from the first place.

Quote from: Tay
The text clearly states that God spoke to the heavens(as gas) and the earth.

Excuse me bro, did the verse said that Allah has a throat and He talked via pushing the air through it?, please confirm to me first how Allah talked and after that we will move to the heaven and earth and how they can talk, thank you

Quote from: Tay
The text clearly states that they both responded by saying, "We come willingly". If they didn't actually say these words, then the text is symbolic of something else entirely.

Excuse again bro, you assumed two things that someone like me must  consider a lie, sorry:

1) you assumed that they didn?t actually say that, while the verse said they said that
2) you assumed then the verse is symbolic while Allah never told us ?here is a parable? in advance

now you need to tell us, do you expect that the heaven and earth have throats like us and talk the same way like us?

Quote from: Tay
What is symbolism?
1 : the art or practice of using symbols especially by investing things with a symbolic meaning or by expressing the invisible or intangible by means of visible or sensuous representations: as a : artistic imitation or invention that is a method of revealing or suggesting immaterial, ideal, or otherwise intangible truth or states b : the use of conventional or traditional signs in the representation of divine beings and spirits


bro, I really careless about the definition you posted above, I know very well what is symbolism as Allah showed me zillions of examples in the Quran

Quote from: Tay
Excellent. I approach it the same way.


But I don?t think it is the same way really, you assume many things as metaphors while the following never happened:

1)   the verse said it is a metaphor
2)   the verse have a hint that conclusively and beyond an atom weight of doubt that it has to be a metaphor

the above action by you is nothing but conjecture as will it is a clear cut act of inventing metaphors and associating it to Allah, while I never do that and surely both actions were warned against in the Quran so how come you say our approach is the same way?


Quote from: Tay
I guess we just have different versions of logic and common sense.

Good this will definitely make our approaches very different, I guess we need to not to worry about our logics and just concentrate on the common  sense and see which approach of ours is more commonly sensible

Quote from: Tay
And there's nothing wrong with that.

I think there is bro, it is either I?m wrong or you are wrong

Quote from: Tay
Quote
i posted three x 2 verses, in each case the two verses are not connected


Actually, all your examples show "fa" connected one sentence to the next. Look:

90:10 And shown him the two highways?
90:11 But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.

See, there is a connection. He was shown 2 ways, BUT he avoided the harder path. 90:11 cannot stand on it's own because it is referencing 90:10.

90:10 = he was shown 2 paths
90:11 = he quickly chose the easy one

The same with your other examples. The "fa" connects one sentence to the other.

Peace,
Tay

mate, you totally missed what I?m talking about, I meant GRAMATICALLY CONNECTED, nor the way different people understand it, and also I  see the verses I posted not connected the way you described it

NOW PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

DO YOU THINK THAT 16:74 is connected to 16:75 and 16:76?

Let me remind you with the start of each  before you give an answer  :

16:74 ?Fa La Taddribo Lillah Alamtha?..?

16:75 ?Daraba Allahu Mathalan???

16:76 ?Wa Daraba Allahu Mathalan???

Cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: warner on June 10, 2006, 05:56:20 PM
Peace All

Just because we want to stay and argue do we have to come up with the most childish
Of arguments. AB I do not know why you even care to reply other than say salam and put your efforts in another discussion.

Pahroah spoke to moses . Did he speak in Arabic. Did Adam, Noah , Abraham, Jesus, and many other figures from the past and different regions and countries speak in Arabic. C?mon Tay this is the Arabic translation of the conversations.

If some one says a computer speaks/communicates with another computer/equipment/modem today, it is no big deal. All these stuff made of 
Metals and plastic communicating with each other and also with man ,
if you say this couple of hundred years back they will call you stupid or imbecile . The church might burn you in a stake . Metal talking to metal. Is it not possible for God if He wants to ?

C?mon I thought this forum is about intelligence
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 10, 2006, 08:23:22 PM
peace AB,

welcome back.

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5984.0
please answer this young man's question.



sorry mate, he does not have a serious question, just the old confusing shaitan calls, for him, if he does not believe that soliman existed then how come he believes that Allah exists?, using his own flawed logic that has nothing to do with belief, he needs to prove  Allah existrance before he believes in Him

Salam
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 11, 2006, 12:08:39 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Quote
but again please don?t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ? and used a totally different method of communication?, now for you to consider that the only way of talking is pushing the air through the throats, then you have limited the ability of Allah and the way He can talk and the ways He can make His creatures talk, for me anything is possible when it comes to the Creator, i.e. He can produce talks without having throats from the first place.

I work with what you give me. And what you gave me was, in your words, "and used a totally different method of communication". The reality is, the qur'an does not tell you that they used a totally different method. This is what you extracted from the text by using your mind.

So, the text says "they talked".
Ahmed says, "they used a totally different method of communication".

Therefore, Ahmed takes the text as symbolic of something else.

Case closed.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 11, 2006, 12:16:51 PM
Peace Warner,

Quote
Pahroah spoke to moses . Did he speak in Arabic. Did Adam, Noah , Abraham, Jesus, and many other figures from the past and different regions and countries speak in Arabic. C?mon Tay this is the Arabic translation of the conversations.

Correct. These were people, and people speak. But do gases speak? Does the earth speak?

Quote
If some one says a computer speaks/communicates with another computer/equipment/modem today, it is no big deal. All these stuff made of 
Metals and plastic communicating with each other and also with man

Exactly. The word "speak" is symbolic of another form of communication. I'm just illustrating to Ahmed that "symbolism" isn't some curse word. We use it all the time. And he uses it all the time. Yet somehow, he blocks this out and insults everyone who is capable of seeing that symbolism is in fact a major part of the Qur'an.

Frankly, I'm tired of it.

Quote
C?mon I thought this forum is about intelligence

 :peace:

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Lobster on June 11, 2006, 01:24:28 PM
peace

i agree with Tay.

Also, a "parable" is any story with a moral or lesson. It doesn't have to be symbolic (but the fact is that to learn any kind of lesson from something, we have to look at it symbolically.)
So it'll be helpful if someone could give me the arabic word for parable in the quran and it's literal meanings. Or at least the word.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 11, 2006, 03:00:14 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Quote
but again please don’t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ” and used a totally different method of communication”, now for you to consider that the only way of talking is pushing the air through the throats, then you have limited the ability of Allah and the way He can talk and the ways He can make His creatures talk, for me anything is possible when it comes to the Creator, i.e. He can produce talks without having throats from the first place.

I work with what you give me. And what you gave me was, in your words, "and used a totally different method of communication". The reality is, the qur'an does not tell you that they used a totally different method. This is what you extracted from the text by using your mind.

So, the text says "they talked".
Ahmed says, "they used a totally different method of communication".

Therefore, Ahmed takes the text as symbolic of something else.

Case closed.

Peace,
Tay


Peace bro


For the second time I see that you try to manipulate what I said, here it is again for the record:

frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication



now if you can see "frankly they may", then good

"Case is closed"


cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 11, 2006, 03:04:04 PM
Brother Tay

Are you going to answer my question or not?, it seems that it is me who answers questions all the time, here is my querstion again for the record:

please, do you think 16:74 is connected to 16:75 & 16:76?

before you give an answer, let me remind you with the start of each one:

16:74 "Fa La Taddribo Lillah Alamathal..."

16:75 "Daraba Allahu Mathalan..."

16:76 "Wa Daraba Allahu Mathalan..."

Cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Lobster on June 11, 2006, 03:43:15 PM
peace

the definition of speak:
To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.
Quote
frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication



now if you can see "frankly they may", then good

"Case is closed"
So Ahmed,
you can either believe that they actually talked using human words, or it is a symbol for a method of communication humans don't understand or cannot be explained in simple words.

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 11, 2006, 07:16:18 PM
peace

the definition of speak:
To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.


This definition apply to humans and animals, and possibly other creatures on earth, it does not apply to Allah  if you don't mind

unless you prove to me that it does apply to Allah

frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

So Ahmed,
you can either believe that they actually talked using human words, or it is a symbol for a method of communication humans don't understand or cannot be explained in simple words.


yep and I won't speculate or promote any conjectures regarding what method of communication they used, simply I don't know, but you guys seems to know a lot of things, oh yeh 17:36 made you know a alot, Haha

cheers
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 11, 2006, 07:20:35 PM
Peace Ahmed,

I'm not trying to manipulate anything. Here is your quote, verbatim:

Quote
Thanks, but again please don?t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ? and used a totally different method of communication?, ...

Ok. So, you say "they may have", or maybe you mean "they definitely do", or maybe you mean, "more often than not", whatever. It's irrelevant. You're focusing on the wrong things bro.

The bottom line... do you believe that gases speak in any spoken language, ie, with words, yes or no?

If yes, then more power to you.
If no, then the ayah is symbolic, by the very definition of the word "symbolic".

As for your question, I answered it the first time you asked me.

Peace,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 11, 2006, 07:30:20 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Peace man

I'm not trying to manipulate anything. Here is your quote, verbatim:

Quote
Thanks, but again please don’t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ” and used a totally different method of communication”, ...

Ok. So, you say "they may have", or maybe you mean "they definitely do", or maybe you mean, "more often than not", whatever. It's irrelevant. You're focusing on the wrong things bro.


am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

The bottom line... do you believe that gases speak in any spoken language, ie, with words, yes or no?

i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

If yes, then more power to you.


I'm 100% sure about the heaven and earth but I only believe that anything that is created can speak the way it was designed to do so


If no, then the ayah is symbolic, by the very definition of the word "symbolic".

I didn't answer "Yes or "No", any answer is nothing but conjecture because Allah didn't specifically say that He talked to the gases, He only said that He talked to the heaven and earth in the verse, if you want to break the heaven down to its celestical objects then fine you can do that, I won't because  I don't try to prove Allah words, I take it for granted

As for your question, I answered it the first time you asked me.

Ok, it seems OI missed it, i will try to find it

Peace,
Tay


Salam
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 11, 2006, 08:11:15 PM
Peace Ahmed,

Quote
am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

I never mentioned anything about Moses or his shoes.

Quote
i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

God gave you eyes and ears and a brain. Have you ever seen a rock speak? Does a rock speaking make any sense to you? I'm sorry bro, but I am not trying to make this symbolic. It is symbolic. It seems that to you, if you admit that it is symbolic, it's equivalent to something terrible. I respect that and will carry this dialogue no further.

Peace be upon you brother,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: AhmedBahgat on June 12, 2006, 12:02:12 AM
Peace Ahmed,

peace mate

Quote
am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

I never mentioned anything about Moses or his shoes.

ok, i'm sorry, it seems i got mixed up between you and Arnold, however you are sort of on the same approach which is making the verses a symbol if it does not make sense to the human sense and totally ignoring that the one who is saying the story is Allah and He telling us about affairs that happened between Him and His messengers

regadless of the lessons learnt from the story told, as long as Allah didn't say that it was a metaphor then saying it is a metaphor on behalf of Allah is exactly what 16:74 is warning  us from doing

Quote
i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

God gave you eyes and ears and a brain. Have you ever seen a rock speak?

no i have not, but what is the relevence of your question?

do you mean the earth is a rock and can't talk?

Does a rock speaking make any sense to you?

if Allah wants the rock to speak for a specific circumsances then He told me about it later, for God sake yeh it will make great sense to me, Allah told me in the Quran numerous times "Ina Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir", "Allah is able to do anything"

I'm sorry bro, but I am not trying to make this symbolic. It is symbolic.

I'm sorry bro what you are proposing is a CLEAR CUT LIE because Allah never said it is symbolic, you are only following and promoting conjecrtures and lies, sorry again

It seems that to you, if you admit that it is symbolic, it's equivalent to something terrible.


not really if I say it is symbolic that it will be terrible, what is terrible and clear cut blasphemy is to say things on Allah behalf without being authored to do as such and without Him suggesting that what He said is as such

I respect that and will carry this dialogue no further.

respect is mutual here, if my words are a bit harsh, then I'm sorry, I'm implementing the method of the Quran to warn all humanity

Peace be upon you brother,
Tay

Take care man
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 12, 2006, 05:15:31 AM
Peace Ahmed,

Quote
it seems i got mixed up between you and Arnold, however you are sort of on the same approach which is making the verses a symbol if it does not make sense to the human sense and totally ignoring that the one who is saying the story is Allah and He telling us about affairs that happened between Him and His messengers

Brother, for the last time, I am not limiting or ignoring Allah's all-mighty abilities by calling something symbolic. In fact, I am doing exactly the opposite. By understanding that rocks and gases do not have vocal chords or mouths, I readily admit that they do not speak, but that Allah chose these words to describe a form of communication that we cannot understand. This is called symbolic, and there's no negative association to it.

Peace be upon you,
Tay
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: idolfree1 on June 15, 2006, 07:05:20 AM
Peace be upon you,

Musa removed his shoes because the journey is within "tawa".

"We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: soul2squeeze on June 17, 2006, 08:31:26 AM
Peace be also upon you Idolfree1,

I loved this interpretation of the story of Moses when you posted it along with the help of bro arnoldyasin explaining some parts I couldn't get around at first. May God increase you both in knowledge!

Since there has been enough heated debate as to whether this verse can be taken as an allegory, I'll just leave it aside so as not to offend anyone's strong convictions on this issue.
Quote
We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you are referring to:

[2.144] Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

This is a very perceptive interpretation of the issue of "qibla" but how does one turn one's face to "within"?

Peace all

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 17, 2006, 09:37:48 AM
Peace,

As the masjid al-haram means restriction place of prostration, which refers to any place where one bows to the laws of the Quran. So this also refers to the mind as this also has to do sujood for Allah's laws. Here i wrote a little thing on this concept:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6019.msg92488#msg92488 (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6019.msg92488#msg92488)

So this is also 'wrapped within', as also valley refers to a narrow space, as that you can only see what is inside the valley when you stand inside it.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: warner on June 17, 2006, 10:30:16 AM
Peace Everyone


Peace idol free

Can we use the same interpretation of Qibla for the following verses.

2 : 142   
Yusuf Ali   The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?"  Say: To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight. 

2 :143   
Yusuf Ali
   Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced that ye might be witnesses over the nations and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith).  Indeed it was (a change) momentous except to those guided by Allah.  And never would Allah make your faith of no effect.  For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness Most Merciful.   
 
2: 144   
Yusuf Ali
   We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee.  Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction.  The people of the book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.   

2 : 145   
Yusuf Ali
   Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not follow thy Qiblah; nor art thou going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong.

2: 146   
Yusuf Ali
   The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.


Also,


What is the verse which says to turn towards the Qiblah to do Salat , I could not find it.
(I guess I have seen it, but now I am not sure)

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Arnold Yasin on June 17, 2006, 11:54:33 AM
Peace,

Yes this verse, but i don't believe salaat means bond/commitment/contact-method in every verse as it also refers to following the Quran(see how QXP translates it). Also this one is not sure to really connect qibla with salaat or even a physical direction. As it looks here more that they were inside the houses, and not far away from it. Also, it can say more that the houses should be the focus(qibla) on from the people of Moses, AND they should do salaat. So that these two are seperated. More research should be done on this. That people should stand the same way is already clear from 4:102, where they ordered to stand together with the prophet and prostrate, which for me sounds logical that all faced the same direction.

10:87Transliteration Waawhayna ila moosa waakheehi an tabawwaa liqawmikuma bimisra buyootan waijAAaloo buyootakum qiblatan waaqeemoo alssalata wabashshiri almu/mineena 

Literal And We inspired/transmitted to Moses and his brother that you (B) reside/establish houses/homes to your (B)'s nation by a city/border/region/Egypt, and make your houses/homes direction, and keep up the prayers, and announce good news (to) the believers.
 
Yusuf Ali We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!" 

Pickthal And We inspired Moses and his brother, (saying): Appoint houses for your people in Egypt and make your houses oratories, and establish worship. And give good news to the believers. 

Arberry And We revealed to Moses and his brother, 'Take you, for your people, in Egypt certain houses; and make your houses a direction for men to pray to; and perform the prayer; and do thou give good tidings to the believers.'

Shakir And We revealed to Musa and his brother, saying: Take for your people houses to abide in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and keep up prayer and give good news to the believers. 

Sarwar We sent a revelation to Moses and his brother to build houses for their people in the Pharaoh's town and to build them facing one another. (We told him) that therein they should pray and that Moses should give the glad news (of God's mercy) to the faithful ones.

Khalifa We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Contact Prayers (Salat). Give good news to the believers." 

Hilali/Khan And We inspired Moosa (Moses) and his brother (saying): "Take dwellings for your people in Egypt, and make your dwellings as places for your worship, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give glad tidings to the believers."

H/K/Saheeh And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and make your houses [facing the] qiblah and establish prayer and give good tidings to the believers." 

Malik We revealed Our will to Moses and his brother, saying: "Take your people to dwell in Egypt, and make your houses as your Qiblah (places of worship) and establish Salah and give good news to the believers!"[87]

QXP We commanded Moses and his brother, "Maintain your homes in Egypt, and turn them into places of worship to remember God. Establish the Commandments in your lives and give good news to the believers." 

Maulana Ali And We revealed to Moses and His brother: Take for your people houses to abide in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and keep up prayer. And give good news to the believers.

Free Minds And We inspired to Moses and his brother: "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the contact-method. And give good news to the believers." 

Qaribullah  We revealed to Moses and his brother: 'Take certain houses for your people in Egypt. Make your houses a direction (for pray); establish the prayer; and give glad tidings to the believers. ' 
 
George Sale And We spake by inspiration unto Moses and his brother, saying, provide habitations for your people in Egypt, and make your houses a place of worship, and be constant at prayer; and bear good news unto the true believers. 

JM Rodwell Then thus revealed we to Moses and to his brother: "Provide houses for your people in Egypt, and in your houses make a Kebla, and observe prayer and proclaim good tidings to the believers."
 
Asad And [thus] did We inspire Moses and his brother: "Set aside for your people some houses in the city, and [tell them], `Turn your houses into places of worship,'?' and be constant in prayer!' And give thou [O Moses] the glad tiding [of God's succour] to all believers."



 

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: warner on June 18, 2006, 02:53:10 AM
Peace ArnoldYasin

As the masjid al-haram means restriction place of prostration, which refers to any place where one bows to the laws of the Quran. So this also refers to the mind as this also has to do sujood for Allah's laws. Here i wrote a little thing on this concept

Can we use the same meaning for every place in the Quraan where masjid al haram occurs.

Can you explain the wrapped within part more since I did not understand properly. Thank you.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: idolfree1 on June 19, 2006, 06:29:14 AM
Peace be upon you S2S,

Quote
I loved this interpretation of the story of Moses when you posted it along with the help of bro arnoldyasin explaining some parts I couldn't get around at first. May God increase you both in knowledge!

And you as well, thank you for the kind words.  :)


Quote
Since there has been enough heated debate as to whether this verse can be taken as an allegory, I'll just leave it aside so as not to offend anyone's strong convictions on this issue.

Respected.

Quote
IF1:
We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

S2S:
If I'm not mistaken, I think you are referring to:

[2.144] Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

This is a very perceptive interpretation of the issue of "qibla" but how does one turn one's face to "within"?


When we ponder on this verse, we have to ask ourselves the question, can we physically face in the direction of a physical stucture AT ALL TIMES, WHEREVER WE ARE? (caps for emphasis only). Since we cannot we have to look at the allegorical side. Without dragging it out, to "face" the resticted masjid is to have the CHARACTER of the "restricted masjid". Where ever we are we are to maintain this character. The face is what helps one determine another persons nature, for example when someone is frowning or crying is different from one who is smiling or laughing. Just give it some thought while reading all related verses.

So turning our face within is to say that we EMULATE the God's attributes which are within us, not imitate faulty humans outside of us. Also, to add more to this, did you know that the origin of people looking to the sky for God is due to astrology. It is true that the heavens influence our behavior, but the test of life is to not be compeleed by the compelling forces of life but to transcend them and live God-like, manifestig the God's attributes both in thoughts(jinn) and actions(insaan), and that is how jinn and man SERVE the God, but being Its vehicle of expression.
Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: idolfree1 on June 19, 2006, 07:16:10 AM
Peace be upon you Warner,

Quote
Peace idol free

Can we use the same interpretation of Qibla for the following verses.

2 : 142   
Yusuf Ali   The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?"  Say: To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight. 



Yes. The word "qibla" only means direction of focus. Regarding the above verse, all humans are born focused on the external world, at some point in thier spiritual development, just like our examples, we have to change our focus from the outer material world to the inner metaphysical world which controls the outer world. We have to start dealing with al ghayb (the unseen) and the hidden(al jinn). Remember the God says that It does not change the condition of a people until they change what is IN thier spirits(nafs). Facing an external structure is dismissed with teh statement that to The God belongs East and West (all points).

Quote
2 :143   
Yusuf Ali   Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced that ye might be witnesses over the nations and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith).  Indeed it was (a change) momentous except to those guided by Allah.  And never would Allah make your faith of no effect.  For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness Most Merciful.   
 

Again, all of mankind starts out focused on the external world, that is the TEST to see who will follow the MESSAGE of the inner journey, or remain on the path of shayteen.

Quote
2: 144   
Yusuf Ali   We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee.  Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction.  The people of the book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.   


This verse has already been discussed, but I just want to give my understanding of "al masjid al haraam".  Mankind serves as the God's vehicle of expression on Earth. Therefore we must be FREE from compulsion. However some people do not realize that it is a freedom through restrictions. Without restrictions this freedom could be used for wickedness. Al masjid al haraam means "the place of hearing and obeying the restrictions".  So the verse means that AT ALL TIMES, our focus in life should be on manifesting the character of the God!!! Powerful message this is! Unfortunately it is too heavy for many people who would rather just sin and sin then seek forgiveness from some type of savior. No, we were created to SERVE the God as its vehicle of righteousness in the world, not to cause havoc al over the earth then beg forgiveness.


Quote
2 : 145   
Yusuf Ali   Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not follow thy Qiblah; nor art thou going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong.


This verse just shows how most people are focused on different objectives, money, opposite gender, children, intoxicants, etc.

You can bring one all of the external signs, but change does not take place in anyone until they make corrections WITHIN thier spirit(nafs). They are ultimately responsible.


Quote
2: 146   
Yusuf Ali   The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.


Yes, the universe is right in front of us all "people of the book(universe)" verifying each and every statement of truth at every second. For example, someone says "dont smoke, it is bad for you", and the people of this universe can see universal law working every single day verifying this fact, but many try to conceal this truth to either make profit or indulge in a conditioning that has them enslaved.


Quote
Also,

What is the verse which says to turn towards the Qiblah to do Salat , I could not find it.
(I guess I have seen it, but now I am not sure)

We are not told to face any direction for "salaat", so there will not be any such verse to find.  :)

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: idolfree1 on June 19, 2006, 07:46:53 AM
Peace be upon you,

Regarding 10:87, I am not 100% sure of the verse. If we take Egypt as the actual place, then to me it speaks on the Wisdom that came from this place in history. If it is not literally Egypt, then we need to know what it means. Further, we need to investigate the difference between House and the "tabawwaa " which is translated sometimes as house or residence.

Title: Re: The holy valley of Tawa
Post by: Tay on June 19, 2006, 04:16:18 PM
Peace All,

I'm glad to see this thread get back on track. My apologies for contributing to it's "derailment".

Peace,
Tay