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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 02:40:20 PM

Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 02:40:20 PM
Hi All,
Quote from: "mquran"
Sadly, people have began to use the banner of 'quran alone' to legitimise thier opinion. While it's true that al-quraan has quantitatively less rules than sunnism, its rebellion against these liberal notions is pretty clear. Therefore the 'quran alone' preached by some is nothing more than secularism in disguise. Interesting malaise, I never saw this in the early days but these days, its common. The good thing is, we can always refer to the book itself. That never fails and people who project false opinions will be exposed. The lack of verse-quoting in this thread is a clear proof of this irreverence.


Is Quran anti- secular?
Should muslims not be a part of a secular society?
Are muslims meant to be anti-secular?

Today, most of the countries practice a secular governance and not a religious governance, Becoz of which muslims are able to live peacefully even in a non muslim country. Every human being has equal rights and is treated equal irrespective of religion. Would this be wrong???

Anybody with answers/views/opinions?

And Mquran, No offence meant on having quoted what u said on an other thread.
Its more like a food for thought really.

Peace!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 03:28:20 PM
No offense taken in the least.

Can you please define 'secular' and distinctify it from 'not secular' ? I think the discussion can proceed once we peg the definitions.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Omeiza on November 23, 2005, 03:32:57 PM
Dear Peacefulmuslim!

I suggest you give us your definition of SECULARISM or possibly ask mquran to do then we can have a structured discussion on the issue.

Thanks.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 03:54:08 PM
Hi all

I meant secular, as in a secular government where all people are equally important irrespective of their religious beliefs, such as most of the countries today. Like say, in countries where muslins are a minority, they are not differentiated on the basis of their religion and are considered equal to just any other person in the country.

And yeah, I have no clue what Mquran meant by secular beliefs in the quote. Propably, he can tell us, his definition as well.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 03:59:15 PM
Here is the dictionary meaning:

Secular:
Worldly rather than spiritual.
Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
Relating to or advocating secularism.
Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy.
Occurring or observed once in an age or century.
Lasting from century to century.

Lets move on from these definitions, shall we?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 04:01:41 PM
Quote
I meant secular, as in a secular government where all people are equally important irrespective of their religious beliefs, such as most of the countries today. Like say, in countries where muslins are a minority, they are not differentiated on the basis of their religion and are considered equal to just any other person in the country.


A government based on al-quraan would have the same principle of equality.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 04:05:30 PM
A government is essentially legislation, set of laws with an executive. The difference, in my view between a secular govt and a Quranic govt is that a Quranic has a permanent set of laws set by Allah. Its not concerned with winning the vote of the majority because there's no election. It's concerned with the establishment of ad-deen as opposed to maximise the pleasure in the short-term (which is what 'ad-dunya' refers to)
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 04:07:48 PM
Hi Mquran,
Say there are 10% of christians in the country. Would the Quranic laws apply to them as well or would they have different rules?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 04:11:21 PM
As far as my reading goes, in an Islamic domain, all laws apply to everyone equally.

'Christianity' applies to thier belief system. Once they enter the islamic domain, they have to iqamus-salaat and itaauz-zakaat ( what i interpret as being committed to producing growth in the quranic sense). This pledge makes them 'muslimeen' in the quranic sense. Religious freedom is a private matter. Hope im clear there.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 04:40:27 PM
So, would the christians be forced to live by Quranic laws even when they dont believe in it?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 04:42:00 PM
Quote
So, would the christians be forced to live by Quranic laws even when they dont believe in it?


Laws like 'dont kill' and 'dont cheat', yes.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 04:53:17 PM
Hi Mquran,
I didnt obviously mean 'dont kill' , 'dont cheat' laws. These are values, that any human, irrespective of any religion can realise and  understand.

How about lashing for adultery? What if the christians in the country do not relate to it?Would the law apply to them as well?

What about marriage and divorce laws? What rules will be followed for the christians? the ones mentioned in Quran(which they dont believe and accept) or seperate rules for them, according to their beliefs?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 04:56:15 PM
SALaM PM

Excellent question. Only proves that Quran was never meant to run a country.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 04:58:59 PM
Quote
I didnt obviously mean 'dont kill' , 'dont cheat' laws. These are values, that any human, irrespective of any religion can realise and understand.


These are laws in the Quran though. If you don't take them as 'religious', thats fine.


Quote
How about lashing for adultery? What if the christians in the country do not relate to it?Would the law apply to them as well?


If they dont relate to it, they shouldnt have sex in the public space like animals. If they do, its not a personal thing anymore , is it ? Obviously, adultery and fornication in thier own space is thier (as with anyone else's) own affair.


Quote
What about marriage and divorce laws? What rules will be followed for the christians? the ones mentioned in Quran(which they dont believe and accept) or seperate rules for them, according to their beliefs?


There's no 'qisas' for marriage and divorce laws, i.e. whether you follow or not, there's no punishement stipulated unless of course, you cheat someone using marriage as a scam. If a marriage and divorce is straightfoward, there's no qisas or equal retribution.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 05:03:21 PM
Hi Jaxal,
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SALaM PM

Excellent question. Only proves that Quran was never meant to run a country.


I honestly wanted to know what everyone out here thinks on this subject.

I lived all my life in India. And I am sooo glad its a secular government and not a religious government (would be hindu government since they are the majority). If it was a religious government and muslims had to follow their religious laws, even if we dont believe it, it would be unfair, wouldnt it? Say, they followed crude laws like burning widows(sati) etc and if all people living in the country were forced to follow it?
I am glad the people and the country chose a secular government where everyone is equal and we follow laws that are just to humanity in general, not taking into consideration any specific religion and religious beliefs.
The same can be said for UK, America etc, isnt it?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:10:44 PM
Quote
I honestly wanted to know what everyone out here thinks on this subject
.

I didnt bother answering because this person generally doesn't know what he's saying and can't answer a question to save his life but if you want, I can deconstruct the sentence for you.


Quote
I lived all my life in India. And I am sooo glad its a secular government and not a religious government (would be hindu government since they are the majority). If it was a religious government and muslims had to follow their religious laws, even if we dont believe it, it would be unfair, wouldnt it?


The Quran isnt a comparison for this. In an islamic domain, anyone can perform any religious rituals as they so choose. However, ppl are bound by Quranic laws which one might call 'civil' instead of 'religious'. I caution against the use of both terms. Al-quraan gives laws, period. They dont have anything to do with your rituals.


Quote
I am glad the people and the country chose a secular government where everyone is equal and we follow laws that are just to humanity in general, not taking into consideration any specific religion.
The same can be said for UK, America etc, isnt it?


Does al-quraan propagate a religion to you ? If so, I'd urge you to read al-quraan thoroughly and see where it preaches a 'religious' government.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 05:13:58 PM
The only thing i need to know regarding you is that ur the kind of man who cant keep his marriage together. The rest, as 7 of 9 says, is irrelevant.

SaLaM PM

What you say is right. Even the indians have enough sense not to run their country using religion. IT has already excelled pakistan in nearly all ways.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 05:15:03 PM
Quote from: "mquran"

Obviously, adultery and fornication in thier own space is thier (as with anyone else's) own affair.

So, according to u, there would be no punishment of lashing for adultery among the christians living under muslim law?


Quote from: "mquran"
There's no 'qisas' for marriage and divorce laws, i.e. whether you follow or not, there's no punishement stipulated unless of course, you cheat someone using marriage as a scam. If a marriage and divorce is straightfoward, there's no qisas or equal retribution.

Would the widows be required to wait for a period of 3 months to marry again?
Would they be required to follow divorce procedures like Quran says?
Would all other punishments(from Quran) apply to them?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:17:23 PM
PM, what did I tell you? Poor chap doesnt have the brains of a 6 yr old. It's good that now the women know what a sex pest he is :) so he can't pull off his lame lines on them.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:20:00 PM
Quote
So, according to u, there would be no punishment of lashing for adultery among the christians living under muslim law?


No. If they had sex publicly (in front of 4 ppl as the Quran stipulates) then there's punishment for them as with everyone else.

Quote
Would the widows be required to wait for a period of 3 months to marry again?
Would they be required to follow divorce procedures like Quran says?


As far as my reading goes, there's no punishable requirement for divorce laws. If you follow them, you gain Allah's rewards. If you don't, you won't.

 
Quote
Would all other punishments(from Quran) apply to them?


Such as what ?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 05:20:28 PM
Quote from: "mquran"
PM, what did I tell you? Poor chap doesnt have the brains of a 6 yr old. It's good that now the women know what a sex pest he is :) so he can't pull off his lame lines on them.


Did I miss anything here? What are u talking about? :shock:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: "mquran"
No. If they had sex publicly (in front of 4 ppl as the Quran stipulates) then there's punishment for them as with everyone else.

oh, is this true for muslims as well?
Are muslims punishable only when they comit adultery in the presence of 4 people?:!:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:24:06 PM
Quote
Did I miss anything here? What are u talking about?


If you want, I can deconstruct the statement Rizwan/Jaxal/Sex-pest made (Only proves that Quran was never meant to run a country). Its a statement made by a person who will never quote the Quran to you but claims to be muslim (sic).
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:26:01 PM
Quote
oh, is this true for muslims as well?
Are muslims punishable only when they comit adultery in the presence of 4 people?


Everyone is. In an islamic domain, people are all bound by the same laws.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 05:26:04 PM
SaLaM PM

Quote
Are muslims punishable only when they comit adultery in the presence of 4 people


See in a normal civilized country, we dont need 4 people as witness. We need evidence. Again, one more reason why Quran was never meant to run a country  :D
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 05:27:24 PM
Mquran,
Quote from: "mquran"
Quote
Did I miss anything here? What are u talking about?


If you want, I can deconstruct the statement Rizwan/Jaxal/Sex-pest made (Only proves that Quran was never meant to run a country). Its a statement made by a person who will never quote the Quran to you but claims to be muslim (sic).


I would appreciate it, if u do not resort to calling people 'names'.
I would kindly request u to address anyone expressing their views here, with respect, EVEN if u disagree with them.
There is no point in a discussion if there is no respect for fellow human beings
.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:28:35 PM
Quote
See in a normal civilized country, we dont need 4 people as witness. We need evidence. Again, one more reason why Quran was never meant to run a country.


Poor guy. He thinks ppl need to go round spying on others. This is what comes from not reading al-quraan but spending ones time pestering women.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: born_again on November 23, 2005, 05:30:18 PM
Oh, here we go again!

:~0
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 05:37:05 PM
Quote
I would appreciate it, if u do not resort to calling people 'names'.
I would kindly request u to address anyone expressing their views here, with respect, EVEN if u disagree with them.
There is no point in a discussion if there is no respect for fellow human beings.


Im simply stating the truth about Rizwan. He has made a nuisance of himself and once precipitated a lady actually CRYING in a voice-chat room. As such, its best to be aware of this person.  

In continuing, lets deconstruct Rizwan's statement: Only proves that Quran was never meant to run a country

What is entailed from 'running a country' ?

Answer : strategic , tactical and operational activities. In other words, long-term, mid-term and short-term goals.

Does al-quraan posess :

a) strategic goals : Yes. If one reads the story of Adam, it tells you how what a society based on Allah's concepts will be like.

b) tactical goals : Yes, if one reads the stories of David and Solomon, it tells you about the tactics of running a mulk.

c) operational goals: al-quraan's ethical code is precisely what all humans need in order to run a clean and efficient government.

In short, Rizwan is as usual, giving false accusations against the book. Try asking him for evidence if you will and you will see for yourself.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 05:46:48 PM
I feel bad humiliating you. Almost felt pity for you. but looks like you havent learnt anything from your divorce.

Quote
Im simply stating the truth about Rizwan. He has made a nuisance of himself and once precipitated a lady actually CRYING in a voice-chat room. As such, its best to be aware of this person.


Ill take being a nuisance over being divorced anyday   :wink:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 23, 2005, 06:09:52 PM
Quote from: "born_again"
Oh, here we go again!

:~0


I agree with u born again.
This attitude has to stop if we are to have a constructive discussion.
All of us are bound to differ in our views and opinions.
But that shouldnt permit anyone to use impolite behaviour in a public forum.
We need to respect each other and also the differences.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 06:13:35 PM
Its a shame your victims don't agree with you :(

Don't you know ? NO MEANS NO. No amount of crying would change that.

Quote
I feel bad humiliating you


Don't feel bad cause Im not here for my ego, unlike yourself. This is why unlike you, I wont cry if women tell me to sod off. The reason why you feel the need to resort to the egotistical dimension is due to the fact you don't have anything by way of SUBSTANCE. I'm not alone in my opinion of you either. I have noted ppl telling you to 'stfu' as you so eloquently put it. Even moderators have a hard time trying to get you to stay in topic for one very simple reason : you can't conduct a discussion. I doubt you can conduct a nursery rhyme....
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 06:15:11 PM
Quote
I agree with u born again.
This attitude has to stop if we are to have a constructive discussion.
All of us are bound to differ in our views and opinions.
But that shouldnt permit anyone to use impolite behaviour in a public forum.
We need to respect each other and also the differences.


PM, np, im done with old rizwan here. I have presented a refutation of Rizwans statement. Would you care to comment on it.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 06:29:32 PM
Quote
I doubt you can conduct a nursery rhyme


Why dont you come down my area and find out?  :wink:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 06:32:32 PM
Quote
Why dont you come down my area and find out?


You want me to pay money to go listen to you rhyme? This may come as a surprise to you but that's not very high on my list.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 06:37:32 PM
Yea... i didnt think you had the balls either to do that  :wink:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 06:46:25 PM
Quote
Yea... i didnt think you had the balls either to do that


The Quran actually forbids me to go into the masjid of the people like yourself but you can come down my way if you want. But first tell me, what is it you intend? You want to sex-pester guys now since you've exhausted all possible female options?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 23, 2005, 06:55:35 PM
Quote
The Quran actually forbids me to go into the masjid of the people like yourself


BAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl . DAMNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnUR A WUSS BAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHAHHAAHAH . No wonder you got divorced LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Im sorry mquran now i feeel sooo bad for calling you out looooooooooooooooooooolllllllllll damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn BAAAAAA HAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl

I once saw a blind man trying to fend off mugs with his stick and you cant cant even get yourself to come out  BAAAAAAAAAAAA :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl  :rotfl HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAA. THIS IS IT MAN UR DONE DEAL. DAMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 23, 2005, 06:58:31 PM
Rizwan, if you want to meet, we can arrange it cause London's huge. All I ask is for you to tell me what you plan. Im not going to meet you to hear you rhyme.

p.s. : are you medically unable to read beyond the 8th word of a sentence or something. I did actually say but you can come down my way if you want.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: shamsul-arefin on November 24, 2005, 02:31:19 AM
peace to all,

In ma opinion....Quran doesnt talk about any religion...It was never meant to establish any religious law, moreover it denounces religious believe. Being secular doesn?t mean one cant have personal spiritual believes. science doesnt denounce spirituality but speaks of it in another language which is logic and prove.

So a community who reads Quran and has the same values will have a balance community with unbiased non-religious constitution.......

The whole thing depends on how one understands the concept of "God" and how they perceive the nature. Does Quran say anything about promoting a religion in the name of "Islam" ?? I don?t think so.

I think we messed up all the words and became trapped in some Arabic words such as "Islam, muslim". Labeling is a common practice ppl cant live without..and this is one of the habit that takes us away from the actual meaning.

Quran is just a guiding source which tries to create common values between humans with an objective to create balance in the natural system...A state can never have any religion, It can only allow it.

So in a way it very similar to secularism...

Shanti
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 03:02:23 AM
Quote
In ma opinion....Quran doesnt talk about any religion...It was never meant to establish any religious law, moreover it denounces religious believe. Being secular doesn’t mean one cant have personal spiritual believes. science doesnt denounce spirituality but speaks of it in another language which is logic and prove.


So, when it tells you what to do with criminals, what do you call it then? Allah gives these ahkaam/rulings very clearly in the book.


Quote
So a community who reads Quran and has the same values will have a balance community with unbiased non-religious constitution.......


Is 'justice' not a 'value' ? If it is and 'quranites' are meant to have it,
shouldnt they seek its operationalisation from al-quraan itself?
I think your use of the terms 'religious' is unjustified here. Al-quraan does have laws and it doesnt differentiate from a religious or non-religious dimension.

Quote
The whole thing depends on how one understands the concept of "God" and how they perceive the nature. Does Quran say anything about promoting a religion in the name of "Islam" ?? I don’t think so.


Not the name but the essence. You're doing away with the whole essence, Shamsul.


Quote
I think we messed up all the words and became trapped in some Arabic words such as "Islam, muslim". Labeling is a common practice ppl cant live without..and this is one of the habit that takes us away from the actual meaning.


I agree with you. Anyone 'born muslim' is a 'muslim' to them. Al-quraan promotes a more functional term of 'muslim', 'islam' etc.


Quote
Quran is just a guiding source which tries to create common values between humans with an objective to create balance in the natural system...A state can never have any religion, It can only allow it


Im surprised that you accept these 'secular' and 'religious' categories blindly. These are just empty words. A secular state does have values. Of course it allows for empty rituals to be practised. Who cares if a bunch of worshippers go up and down 5 times a day or sing Jesus songs every week? But try opposing thier corporatisation programs. Try opposing the being sold out to the corporations and then you will see why Allah talks about ar-ribaa.

A state's religion is hedonism for the chosen few. Stalinism exists in many forms.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 03:32:21 AM
Hi Shamsul-arefin,
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
peace to all,In ma opinion....Quran doesnt talk about any religion...It was never meant to establish any religious law, moreover it denounces religious believe. Being secular doesn?t mean one cant have personal spiritual believes. science doesnt denounce spirituality but speaks of it in another language which is logic and prove.


Ofcourse, one can have their individual religious belief. But the constitution would have to be governed by a set of laws. Which do u think would be right?
Secular laws taking into consideration justice of humanity irrespective of religion,  or religious laws from the religion which majority of the people of a country follow  and the minority forced to follow the same religious legislation even if they dont believe in it?

Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
So a community who reads Quran and has the same values will have a balance community with unbiased non-religious constitution.......

I agree. The values are to be given importance. That is the whole message.

Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
Quran is just a guiding source which tries to create common values between humans with an objective to create balance in the natural system...A state can never have any religion, It can only allow it.
So in a way it very similar to secularism...


Yeah, but what should be legislation be based on? Religion of the majority or secularism?
So, to say, america, u.k would have christian legislation? Is that what some out here believe should be the case?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 03:41:34 AM
Quote
I agree. The values are to be given importance. That is the whole message


The quran doesnt even have a WORD for 'values' and it never postulated itself as a MORAL guidance or BASIC reference. This is all lies projected unto al-quraan.  PM , do you care at all what al-quraan says ?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 03:50:58 AM
Hi Mquran,
My question is simple.
I have no clue which country u live in.
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... : Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation taking into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion', like that of now?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 03:57:01 AM
Quote
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... : Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation like that of now?


Im in London, thanks.

Firstly, your question has no essential meaning.

Both religious and secular approaches have LAWS.

Laws are meant to be followed.

However, 'religious laws in the world' (i know this term is going to be misunderstood) tend to be oppressive by standards of al-quraan. Secular laws compared to this, are more in-line with al-quraan.

More in-line DOESN'T MEAN absolutely in-line. Please understand this.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 04:04:04 AM
Quote from: "mquran"
Firstly, your question has no essential meaning.

It has all the essential meaning  its meant to have. Thank u for ur opinion, though.
Quote from: "mquran"
Both religious and secular approaches have LAWS.
Laws are meant to be followed.

I agree.
Quote from: "mquran"
However, 'religious laws in the world' (i know this term is going to be misunderstood) tend to be oppressive by standards of al-quraan. Secular laws compared to this, are more in-line with al-quraan.

More in-line DOESN'T MEAN absolutely in-line. Please understand this.

Well, if u r gonna say , a country with muslim majority should have religious legislation, its only fair that the other countries also follow their religious laws, instead of secular laws meant for 'humanity in general irrespective of religion'.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 04:06:09 AM
Quote
Well, if u r gonna say , a country with muslim majority should have religious legislation, its only fair that the other countries also follow their religious laws, instead of secular laws meant for 'humanity in general irrespective of religion'.


Are you talking about muslims in the quranic sense or not ?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 05:01:03 AM
Quote from: "mquran"
Quote
Well, if u r gonna say , a country with muslim majority should have religious legislation, its only fair that the other countries also follow their religious laws, instead of secular laws meant for 'humanity in general irrespective of religion'.


Are you talking about muslims in the quranic sense or not ?


I am, indeed.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: AhmedBahgat on November 24, 2005, 05:24:36 AM
Hello

the logic is very simple, any country chooses its laws from any source they wish, if a country wants to rule by the Quran or by the Veda it is up to them indeed, however anyone lives, visits or stops by must abide by the laws of this country

for example if you get caught with a joint in australia you get a warning, in another country like Singapore you may get executed

you see same crime, same humans different countries and different laws

so if a chrsitian is not happy by living in a country that applys the Quran, it will be a good idea they leave

it is exactly like most muslim migrants who live in western countries and keep whining about the "Fasad"  in these countries, well, they can simply leave and go back to a country where they will be happy with its laws

The Quarn is desgined to run tribes, cities, countries and the whole world if humans know how to apply it right and none so far managed to do that at least in the last 1000 years

peace
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 07:45:30 AM
Hi Ahmed Baghat,
Quote from: "AhmedBahgat"
the logic is very simple, any country chooses its laws from any source they wish, if a country wants to rule by the Quran or by the Veda it is up to them indeed, however anyone lives, visits or stops by must abide by the laws of this country


I agree. But today, majority of the governments are secular, arent they?  Rules are made considering people in general and not following religious dictums.
If Australia were to follow christian law, and if any non christian also had to abide by them, even if they dont recognise it as an authority, then it would be unfair wont it? What if some of the religious laws, u feel were very unjust, but still u are forced  to abide?
And if u r talking of leaving the country, then that would mean there will be countries based on religion and not human beings, where each country will contain only people of the same faith and we will be fighting religions instead of living peacefully under the same roof.

What is wrong with a secular government where every human being is considered equal irrespective of religion and laws made taking into consideration 'justice of human beings' instead of religion based laws?

Would u prefer if Australia had a christian legislation instead of secular?

I am just trying to know and understand everyone's views.
So, Peace everyone.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 24, 2005, 07:50:04 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
What is wrong with a secular government where every human being is considered equal irrespective of religion and laws made taking into consideration 'justice of human beings' instead of religion based laws?


In a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs therefore we have no choice but have a Secular Democracy.

Chaps and Chapes's Secular Democarcy is the only way forward...

Regards.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 08:00:10 AM
Quote from: "LoteTree"

In a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs therefore we have no choice but have a Secular Democracy.

Chaps and Chapes's Secular Democarcy is the only way forward....


I completely agree with u.
When people of all religions can live together peacefully under the same roof, in a secular environment , why not?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 08:31:22 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Hi Mquran,
I didnt obviously mean 'dont kill' , 'dont cheat' laws. These are values, that any human, irrespective of any religion can realise and  understand.

How about lashing for adultery? What if the christians in the country do not relate to it?Would the law apply to them as well?

What about marriage and divorce laws? What rules will be followed for the christians? the ones mentioned in Quran(which they dont believe and accept) or seperate rules for them, according to their beliefs?


Khi- Salam. The majority dictates the rules of the country and if it has decided to take those above mentioned from Quran then it applies to EVERYBODY. Christians may also not be satisfied with imprisonment of those whove beaten up homos, yet if they live in such a country where the law applies theyve to accept it as is the case of secular countries. So whts your point? Btw the Quranic laws if applied would be best for a country. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 08:32:46 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SALaM PM

Excellent question. Only proves that Quran was never meant to run a country.


Khi- Salam. What do you mean? The Quran has laws in it for all humanity and if we were to apply them rape, murder, violence, etc all woud come down considerably and there would be a much greater sense of justice. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 08:48:15 AM
Hi IDMKhizar and all,

My question is simply this:
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... : Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation taking into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion', like that of now?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 24, 2005, 09:40:17 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Hi IDMKhizar and all,

My question is simply this:
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... : Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation taking into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion', like that of now?


My answer always has been is that SECULAR DEMOCRACY
is the only way forward...there is no other way...it is the only way to go...

SECULAR DEMOCRACY serves humanity best.

Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 10:45:17 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Hi IDMKhizar and all,

My question is simply this:
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... : Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation taking into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion', like that of now?


Khi- Salam. Do you mean the Quran doesnt take into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion'? If you do then your wrong. The lashing in public part for adultery is a social and non religious issue. It causes shame to enter peoples minds so they dont commit the same again. A similar punishment was instituted by schwazenegger making thieves stand outside in public with a cardboard saying "im a thief". GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 10:47:43 AM
Quote

My answer always has been is that SECULAR DEMOCRACY
is the only way forward...there is no other way...it is the only way to go...

SECULAR DEMOCRACY serves humanity best.

Regards,


Khi- Salam. Depends on how you define democracy. I prefer a democracy where all people have smething to add and not just a black and white ALL the opinions of the majority only. Life is grey, NOT black and white contrary to what most people want it to be. And i believe the Quranic laws serve humanity in the best way possible. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: KGB on November 24, 2005, 11:11:23 AM
Salaam Alleikum MQuran

Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.

The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.

Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 11:16:24 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Quote
Khi- Salam. What do you mean? The Quran has laws in it for all humanity and if we were to apply them rape, murder, violence, etc all woud come down considerably and there would be a much greater sense of justice. GOD Bless!


Those arent enough to run a country brother. The Quran is not a book on "How to run a country for dummies". Quran gives morals. This is good. This is right. This is wrong. It is up to us to derive the laws from the Quran and apply it to a society. PM has asked a very crucial question:

"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.

Even if we pull together the Torah, Gospel and Quran, we still cannot run a country by these books. The countries which have brought religion into their politics , are in a dump. Shouldnt that be a lesson?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 11:18:00 AM
Hi KGB,
Quote from: "KGB"
Salaam Alleikum MQuran
Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.

The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.

Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.


If u r indeed very wise and intelligent, why would u bother posting a personal  advice u r giving to ur friends in the discussion here, instead of a PM to them?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 11:24:12 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"


"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.


And vice versa. Would u all also be happy to follow the religious laws of the  majority people  of the non muslim country u live in, if given a choice between secularism and religious laws?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: KGB on November 24, 2005, 11:27:35 AM
I don't send Private Messages. Because I don't have anything to hide. I always keep posting on the public forum instead of trying to form a secertive group.

Do you have problem with this? Live with it if you have. I am not going to change myself to please you.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Quote from: "Jaxal"


"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.


And vice versa. Would u all also be happy to follow the religious laws of the  majority people  of the non muslim country u live in, if given a choice between secularism and religious laws?


Khi- Salam. If i wanna live in a country i have to follow its rules. Im living in germany where i cant just beat up the criminals like murderers or rapists or even just be somewhat harsh to homos. Im actually punished if i hurt a rapist by myself even if it were proved in the aftermath that he did rape and i saw it with my own eyes. This doesnt make me happy ofcourse but what can i do. Its the rule of the country. So your saying that secular law makes everyone happy is nonsensible. If you dont like the laws of a country or those laws go against your beliefs or religious scriptures the only logical solution is to leave unless forced by necessity. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 11:33:04 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Quote
Khi- Salam. What do you mean? The Quran has laws in it for all humanity and if we were to apply them rape, murder, violence, etc all woud come down considerably and there would be a much greater sense of justice. GOD Bless!


Those arent enough to run a country brother. The Quran is not a book on "How to run a country for dummies". Quran gives morals. This is good. This is right. This is wrong. It is up to us to derive the laws from the Quran and apply it to a society. PM has asked a very crucial question:

"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.

Even if we pull together the Torah, Gospel and Quran, we still cannot run a country by these books. The countries which have brought religion into their politics , are in a dump. Shouldnt that be a lesson?


Khi- Salam. Ok i get ur point. Quran doesnt detail each and everything. Much is left for us to decide but im talking about whats in there clearly. That should be added to the rules of the country. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 11:34:20 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

But brother, where in the Quran do you find the punishment for all criminal acts? Do you know how many criminal acts are there? Are you saying that the Quran gives the punishement to every single criminal act every commited? What about cyber crimer? Does Quran speaks of cyber crime? And as stillearning asked, what about saftey laws while building schools, building, hospitals, roads, cars, turcks, vans, cycles, rockets. There are laws for this. Quran does not gives these laws. WE , the humans, have to derieve these laws from what God gave us. A MORAL CODE.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 11:36:21 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

But brother, where in the Quran do you find the punishment for all criminal acts? Do you know how many criminal acts are there? Are you saying that the Quran gives the punishement to every single criminal act every commited? What about cyber crimer? Does Quran speaks of cyber crime? And as stillearning asked, what about saftey laws while building schools, building, hospitals, roads, cars, turcks, vans, cycles, rockets. There are laws for this. Quran does not gives these laws. WE , the humans, have to derieve these laws from what God gave us. A MORAL CODE.


Khi- Salam. U dont and i agree. Thats why i said much is left upto us BUT THOSE PUNISHEMTS WHICH ARE MENTIONED IN IT SHOULD BE APPLIED. Get it? GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 11:39:37 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Sorry brother i posted after you. I didnt see that post. But ok, so now do you agree that Quran was not meant to run a country?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 11:42:45 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Sorry brother i posted after you. I didnt see that post. But ok, so now do you agree that Quran was not meant to run a country?


Khi- Salam. Ok in that sense, yes. But this doesnt mean the Quran's laws should not be included in the legislation of country by believers. I thoguht thats what you meant to imply. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 11:44:32 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

You are around the forum so rare that i want to ask you a lot of question looolll.

Ok, do you beleive that if Quran was sent down today, it would be the exact same in every single punishment as it was 1400 years ago?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 12:43:27 PM
Salaamun alaikum,

Quote
Peacefulmuslim:Well, if u r gonna say , a country with muslim majority should have religious legislation, its only fair that the other countries also follow their religious laws, instead of secular laws meant for 'humanity in general irrespective of religion'.

MQ: Are you talking about muslims in the quranic sense or not ?

PM : I am, indeed.


What is your point here? If the christians are kafir to thier deen, we should be kafir to ours ? What people do is really thier own affair. Al-quraan commands that God's laws be established. If you reject God's laws, that's also your business.

Quote
PM: If Australia were to follow christian law, and if any non christian also had to abide by them, even if they dont recognise it as an authority, then it would be unfair wont it? What if some of the religious laws, u feel were very unjust, but still u are forced to abide?


When al-madeenah is established, no one will force you to enter it. So what's the problem here? Are you ok with people entering polities (like the UK) then blatantly disobeying  the law ?

Al-quraan postulates LAWS. If you're a muslim, you submit to them. If not, that's also cool.


Quote
LoteTree: In a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs therefore we have no choice but have a Secular Democracy.

Chaps and Chapes's Secular Democarcy is the only way forward...


The beautiful of proof of this is Paris of last month! The most rabidly anti-religion democracy was burning due to the effects of 'secular democracy'


Quote
I completely agree with u.
When people of all religions can live together peacefully under the same roof, in a secular environment , why not?


Because al-quraan forbids us to entrust protectorship (wilayaat) over to al-kafireen (5/51)


Quote
Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.

The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.

Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.


Yes, al-quraan calls ppl like this 'alladhina haadu' (4/46). Their acceptance of al-islaam is conditional to thier desires and not in full submission (4/65).


Quote
PM: If u r indeed very wise and intelligent, why would u bother posting a personal advice u r giving to ur friends in the discussion here, instead of a PM to them


What has 'wisdom and intelligence' to do with how he chooses to say this? I think he's wise to say it publically because there's so much misleading information is FM now that people should be forewarned about who really lurks in these pretending to be upholders of Al-quraan when in fact they oppose the establishment of ad-deen fully.


Quote
PM: And vice versa. Would u all also be happy to follow the religious laws of the majority people of the non muslim country u live in, if given a choice between secularism and religious laws?


If you enter a polity , a political domain, then you undertake the social contract to follow its laws. SECULAR AND RELIGION are made up names, designed to subvert the essence of things which is POWER. Al-Quraan deals with power/mulk and tells us to attain mulk.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 01:06:39 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

You are around the forum so rare that i want to ask you a lot of question looolll.

Ok, do you beleive that if Quran was sent down today, it would be the exact same in every single punishment as it was 1400 years ago?


Khi- Salam. Regrading the general punishments including all other commands  which apply to all believers, YES as those usually preceded by "ya ayuhalazeena aamanu" or simply without any further remark of time and location. Regarding local commandments precede by phrases like "for the Jews we forbade... we decreed the sabbath for the jews..." those were only for a particular time. GOD clearly distinguishes local from global commandments/punishments in the Quran otherwise it just wouldnt make any sense. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 01:17:24 PM
Salaam Khizar,

Quote
Khi- Salam. Regrading the general punishments including all other commands which apply to all believers


Are you saying that IN AN ISLAMIC DOMAIN (this is the key phrase here, a domain ruled by Allah's laws) a disbeliever can commit murder , theft and disorder without any punishment?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Hi KGB,
Quote from: "KGB"
Salaam Alleikum MQuran
Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.

The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.

Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.


If u r indeed very wise and intelligent, why would u bother posting a personal  advice u r giving to ur friends in the discussion here, instead of a PM to them?



Quote from: "mquran"
What has 'wisdom and intelligence' to do with how he chooses to say this? I think he's wise to say it publically because there's so much misleading information is FM now that people should be forewarned about who really lurks in these pretending to be upholders of Al-quraan when in fact they oppose the establishment of ad-deen fully.


 I said he could better PM his friends to advice them instead of disturbing the ongoing discussion, if he didnt want to participate. For refernce, refer Forum rules.

And we are just having a discussion of views and opinions on what people on this forum, think on the subject. Do u guys have a problem with that?
This topic is under '' General Issues / Questions'' and so we are discussing on a general but important topic.
So, whats the forewarning about? That certain people use their brains and discuss instead of shouting abuses at people who disagree with them?

It will be kind of u to stick to the discussion.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 01:48:05 PM
Quote from: "mquran"
Salaam Khizar,

Quote
Khi- Salam. Regrading the general punishments including all other commands which apply to all believers


Are you saying that IN AN ISLAMIC DOMAIN (this is the key phrase here, a domain ruled by Allah's laws) a disbeliever can commit murder , theft and disorder without any punishment?


Khi- Salam. OOOps. i guess my words were too short to get the whole sense out of them. The general commands in the Quran are those addressing legal laws, others like salat, zakaat and believing in GOD Alone do not constitute any legal punishment and anyone can choose this for himself. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 01:56:01 PM
Quote
PM:I said he could better PM his friends to advice them instead of disturbing the ongoing discussion, if he didnt want to participate. For refernce, refer Forum rules.


KGB is giving a valuable suggestion because if its true that you reject God's laws, then you'll be judging with ur hawaa (see 5/48). If you judge by your hawaa, nothing I say will help anyway (45/23). Its a good point which is essentially stop wasting time.


Quote
And we are just having a discussion of views and opinions on what people on this forum, think on the subject. Do u guys have a problem with that?


Not at all. Can I ask you though, is it polite to ask people questions and when they answer, you just overlook it and move on without acknowledgement?


Quote
This topic is under '' General Issues / Questions'' and so we are discussing on a general but important topic.
So, whats the forewarning about? That certain people use their brains and discuss instead of shouting abuses at people who disagree with them


Abuses? Show me where abuses have flown over DISAGREEMENT ?


Quote
It will be kind of u to stick to the discussion.
 
Are you kidding me? How many times have you answered a question directly? I'll try again, ok:


Do you accept al-quraan as criteria ?

If so, do you think all its laws should be established?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 01:57:38 PM
Quote
Khi- Salam. OOOps. i guess my words were too short to get the whole sense out of them. The general commands in the Quran are those addressing legal laws, others like salat, zakaat and believing in GOD Alone do not constitute any legal punishment and anyone can choose this for himself. GOD Bless!

 
Wasalam, so lets say a christian commits murder in an islamic domain, we have to punish him, right ? Despite him not believing in al-quraan?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 24, 2005, 02:03:31 PM
salaam pm

Quote
My question is simple.
I have no clue which country u live in.
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... : Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation taking into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion', like that of now?


To answer your questions and I am going by personal experience only.
I ave no doubt that I would like to live in a secular democratic society where evry one is free to pracitce their beliefs. This based purely on my experience of visiting different countries with different systems.
Even if we lived in a society where every one believed in the system according to the Quran-there will be a matter of little difficulty in interpertation(as we have already discovered in this forum), as you see there were will always be ignorant idiots like us who may disagree with the more learned and intelligent ones so whose interpertation are we going to accept?
Oh by the way does the Quran not tell us there is no compulsion in religion or am I being ignorant again!
regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 02:05:41 PM
SaLaM stillearning

Ahh, i was just thinking of pming you and inviting you to join in here. Good you showed up. Now, as you said, everyone needs to be free to practice whatever they beleive in. This wont be possible if a country is ruled by the Quran. Another reason showing why a country shouldnt be ruled using the Quran.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 02:09:58 PM
Quote from: "mquran"
KGB is giving a valuable suggestion because if its true that you reject God's laws, then you'll be judging with ur hawaa (see 5/48). If you judge by your hawaa, nothing I say will help anyway (45/23). Its a good point which is essentially stop wasting time.

If u consider it a waste of time, why do u bother to participate in the discussion and blame others for wasting ur time? Did anyone force anyone here to get into a discussion?

Quote from: "mquran"
Can I ask you though, is it polite to ask people questions and when they answer, you just overlook it and move on without acknowledgement?

Is this implied at me? Coz, if it is and if I have missed out any question, I apologise for it. Didnt intend to.

Quote from: "mquran"
Abuses? Show me where abuses have flown over DISAGREEMENT ?

Oh, Where shall we start?
democracy thread where u shouted abuses at me, stillearning and Jaxal;
Sect thread whre u shouted abuses at Mehdi
God alone thread where u shouted abuses at Mehdi

Quote from: "mquran"
Do you accept al-quraan as criteria ?

If so, do you think all its laws should be established?

I accept Quran as a guidance from God to mankind in which Allah tells us to live life righteously and in a just way without creating mischief on earth.

My Question here is different altogether. I am not asking  ''if Quran is any one's criteria?''
I am asking , ''would u be ok if Uk(whre u live today) followed a christian legislation instead of a secular one?
I am just asking for every one's views here. Am not telling anyone what they should believe and what they should not believe.
Everyone can and will use their own brains. Any problems with it?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 02:13:46 PM
SaLaM PM

Oh GOD! The things i can say here!!!

*looks at PM and glares loooooollll
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 24, 2005, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: "mquran"
Quote
Khi- Salam. OOOps. i guess my words were too short to get the whole sense out of them. The general commands in the Quran are those addressing legal laws, others like salat, zakaat and believing in GOD Alone do not constitute any legal punishment and anyone can choose this for himself. GOD Bless!

 
Wasalam, so lets say a christian commits murder in an islamic domain, we have to punish him, right ? Despite him not believing in al-quraan?


Khi- Salam. Yep since thts a legal rule. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 24, 2005, 02:16:22 PM
salaam jaxal
 Thank you for your thought-I must have got the waves.
More seriously how do you guys get to write so much on these forums-you must carry you laptop or whatever it is you use with you. At my age I get breathless just reading, also it is very difficult writing and watching cricket and football at the same time whilst pretending, to the Mrs, to be busy with work related matters otherwise hoovering and washing up.

Oops sorry I forgot where I was oh! yes:

 
Quote
This wont be possible if a country is ruled by the Quran.


Did we not encounter few problems in running a country with the Quran i.e finding few missing rules!

regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 02:17:48 PM
SaLaM stillearning

You see... I have a passion for programming. Right now, im making a software in java ( java sucks ). So while im programming, i keep checking for new posts  :D

 :offtopic
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 24, 2005, 02:21:23 PM
Hi Jaxal,
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM PM
Oh GOD! The things i can say here!!!
*looks at PM and glares loooooollll

Things u can say regarding what?

Hi Stillearning,

Welcome back!
Nice to see u posting after a long time.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 24, 2005, 02:24:01 PM
salaam jaxal

Quote
You see... I have a passion for programming. Right now, im making a software in java ( java sucks ).


Now you are showing off and trying to confuse with words like java.

Well then I hope you wont mind if I send you e-mail of very dumb sounding queries regarding programmes etc now and then
regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 24, 2005, 02:26:49 PM
Hi PM

Quote
Welcome back!
Nice to see u posting after a long time.


Thank you and ood to see you in top form.

regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 02:30:20 PM
Quote
If u consider it a waste of time, why do u bother to participate in the discussion and blame others for wasting ur time? Did anyone force anyone here to get into a discussion?


I said 'if its true that you reject God's laws, then you'll be judging with ur hawaa (see 5/48). If you judge by your hawaa, nothing I say will help anyway (45/23). Its a good point which is essentially stop wasting time.

'IF it's true', PM. You claim to be Muslim, so by Quranic definition, you should be judging according to al-quraan. If you don't, yes, it'd be pointless because we wouldnt have common ground.


Quote
Is this implied at me? Coz, if it is and if I have missed out any question, I apologise for it. Didnt intend to.


Partly yes. Thank you for paying attention to this.


Quote
Oh, Where shall we start?
democracy thread where u shouted abuses at me, stillearning and Jaxal;
Sect thread whre u shouted abuses at Mehdi
God alone thread where u shouted abuses at Mehdi


Al-quraan allows me to counter evil. Mr Mehdi by his own admission was there to mock people. Therefore, to judge him as a 'muslim' is counter-quranic. I have since ignored this person altogether.


Quote
I accept Quran as a guidance from God to mankind in which Allah tells us to live life righteously and in a just way without creating mischief on earth.


This is what I mean by not answering the question. My question was specific : If so, do you think all its laws should be established?

Its funny how you cannot confront this question. Are Allah's laws so 'barbaric' to you because you live in a 'secular democracy' ??

Quote
I am asking , ''would u be ok if Uk(whre u live today) followed a christian legislation instead of a secular one?
I am just asking for every one's views here. Am not telling anyone what they should believe and what they should not believe.
Everyone can and will use their own brains. Any problems with it?


My answer: As a Muslim, in any polity I enter, Im obliged to follow its laws.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 02:31:34 PM
Quote
Khi- Salam. Yep since thts a legal rule. GOD Bless!


Many thanks for answering directly. Its good to see sincerety still existing in this forum. God bless you.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 02:32:51 PM
SaLaM stillearning

Quote from: "stillearning"
salaam jaxal

Quote
You see... I have a passion for programming. Right now, im making a software in java ( java sucks ).


Now you are showing off and trying to confuse with words like java.

Well then I hope you wont mind if I send you e-mail of very dumb sounding queries regarding programmes etc now and then
regards


Lool. Sure, no worries.

You know, when someone really thinks this whole thing through with a rational mind, there is no doubt that he/she will agree that Quran was never meant to run a country.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: KGB on November 24, 2005, 02:39:12 PM
Salaam Alleikum MQuran

Brother. You will never get a straight forward answer from Mujafiqeen.


Regarding hiding myself behind KGB ID. Yes I am scared of Mujafiqeen and Criminals, petty thieves, jewelery theives.

I am willing to give my telephone number, address, real name or meet them in person with honest persons who will not harm me if we have differnce of opinion. I can't give me this information to someone with criminal backgroud and drug addict.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 24, 2005, 02:39:26 PM
salaam

Quote
You know, when someone really thinks this whole thing through with a rational mind, there is no doubt that he/she will agree that Quran was never meant to run a country.


Exactly!
regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 03:52:09 PM
Quote
Brother. You will never get a straight forward answer from Mujafiqeen


Salaam KGB, you've certainly done your reading about munafiqeen. I need to see if this issue is worth the time to discuss. If it seems to be a waste of time, I'd rather focus on my own research.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: born_again on November 24, 2005, 06:18:21 PM
if the Quran is enough to run a country why did (and still do) civilizations under Shariah law mostly rule from sources outside of the Quran?

if the Quran was a handbook for running a country then we certainly wouldn't need sunnah, fiqh or other human made laws to complete the country's constitution.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 24, 2005, 06:29:09 PM
SaLaM born_again

Quote
if the Quran is enough to run a country why did (and still do) civilizations under Shariah law mostly rule from sources outside of the Quran?


Exacty. And even with those sources, look how far any of them got.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: shamsul-arefin on November 24, 2005, 08:17:52 PM
this discussion is really tiring........I can see that there will be another type of fanatic group emerging in the near future within this God Alone concept.......

peace
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 10:53:20 PM
Quote
Born-again:if the Quran is enough to run a country why did (and still do) civilizations under Shariah law mostly rule from sources outside of the Quran?


Hello ? How did Shariah come into this? Do you know where you are in cyberspace, friend ?


Quote
if the Quran was a handbook for running a country then we certainly wouldn't need sunnah, fiqh or other human made laws to complete the country's constitution.


Sigh..Sunnah, fiqh and all the other made up stuff is DIRECT CONTRADICTION to Quranic Law. Have you actually looked at this or what? It was never meant to 'COMPLETE' the country's constitution but to 'SUBVERT'.  Why do you think that NOT A SINGLE element of Sharia law comes from Al-quraan?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 24, 2005, 10:59:54 PM
Quote
Shamsul:
this discussion is really tiring........I can see that there will be another type of fanatic group emerging in the near future within this God Alone concept.......  


What an unfair remark. It's ok for you to completely overlook al-quraan in your discourse and when people like myself seek evidence, we're branded as 'fanatics' pejoratively? What's a fanatic anyway ? A guy excessively into his ideology? You don't think Al-quraan warrants this kind of devotion? In that case, I don't think you fit in well with it, dude.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 02:26:43 AM
Quote
Shamsul:
this discussion is really tiring........I can see that there will be another type of fanatic group emerging in the near future within this God Alone concept.......  

U are right, Shamsul. I can sense it coming too. And its ''Quran alone'' and not God alone.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 03:22:12 AM
Quote
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4272&start=0

secular or circular?


Sadly, trying to be too clever necessitates ( a little ) cleverness. As usual, quippy and never actually addressing the point, that's Mehdi.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Nadia25 on November 25, 2005, 03:35:44 AM
Peace.


Quote
U are right, Shamsul. I can sense it coming too. And its ''Quran alone'' and not God alone.


I agree. A friend told me something beautiful the other night.

"you dont read God, you feel God"

I still think the messege of the quraan, is wonderful, but the importent thing is our belive in God.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 03:37:43 AM
HI all,
Please vote in the poll here on the issue:
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4495


Thank u.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 25, 2005, 03:44:06 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
HI all,
Please vote in the poll here on the issue:
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4495
Thank u.


I have voted and I voted for SECULAR DEMOCRACY :-)

Hey this voting thing - do you think it will catch on? :wink:

Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 03:58:46 AM
Hi Lotetree,
Quote from: "LoteTree"

Hey this voting thing - do you think it will catch on? :wink:


I think its a better way to get everyone's views coz many do not participate  in the forum discussions becoz of the all the nonsense that comes with it etc. Some others prefer reading the discussions than participating.
So, It will be good to know what all people out here, think on the subject, through a poll.

I dont know if it will catch up but yeah, I hope many participate so that we can know what everyone's views are.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 25, 2005, 04:04:49 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Hi Lotetree,
Quote from: "LoteTree"

Hey this voting thing - do you think it will catch on? :wink:


I think its a better way to get everyone's views coz many do not participate  in the forum discussions becoz of the all the nonsense that comes with it etc. Some others prefer reading the discussions than participating.
So, It will be good to know what all people out here, think on the subject, through a poll.

I dont know if it will catch up but yeah, I hope many participate so that we can know what everyone's views are.


The poll is good...I just tried to make a wider connection of voting and democracy (the debate of this thread :-) :wink:)

Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 04:41:40 AM
Quote
Please vote in the poll here on the issue:
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4495


Your initiative is proof of your bias. Look at your wording:
Quote
'religious legislation in all countries according to the religion of majority'.


Is al-quraan promoting a RELIGION?

Devious, PM, real devious.

Al-quraan promotes ad-deen al-islaam , the servitude to Allah alone, through the obedience of his laws. You''re not a muslim unless you submit to His Laws. However, you would ask the approval of al-kuffar before you serve Allah?

Never will al-yahood or an-nasara be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. (2/120)

Al-quraan predicted your attitude before you even concieved it.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: shamsul-arefin on November 25, 2005, 05:00:08 AM
Quote from: "mquran"
Quote
Shamsul:
this discussion is really tiring........I can see that there will be another type of fanatic group emerging in the near future within this God Alone concept.......  


What an unfair remark. It's ok for you to completely overlook al-quraan in your discourse and when people like myself seek evidence, we're branded as 'fanatics' pejoratively? What's a fanatic anyway ? A guy excessively into his ideology? You don't think Al-quraan warrants this kind of devotion? In that case, I don't think you fit in well with it, dude.


brother mquran...dont be offended pls.....I didnt mention anyones name here...so pls dont take it over you. I have just made a prediction and I am focusing on the mind set..not the Quranic teaching.

If I didnt accept Quran to be guiding book than I wouldnt be in this forum for yearssss........I am just focusing on the pattern which we should be aware of. We should always ask ourselve if we are getting obsessed with something or not. In my opinion Obsession about God is also harmful and can deviat us from sound judgement.

sorry if I offended you...

shanti/peace
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 25, 2005, 05:33:41 AM
Salaam PM

Quote
HI all,
Please vote in the poll here on the issue:


Dangerous indeed this democracy thing might catch on and what might that lead to: Choice for the people, better living standards, freedom to practice their faith or lack of it etc. Very dangerous indeed.
Regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 25, 2005, 06:02:56 AM
Quote from: "M_Mehdi"

secular or circular?
:?


Perhaps its a Spiral? :wink:

Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 06:14:35 AM
SaLaM stillearning

Quote
Dangerous indeed this democracy thing might catch on and what might that lead to: Choice for the people, better living standards, freedom to practice their faith or lack of it etc. Very dangerous indeed.
Regards


Exactly! This is what Quran advocates. Quran does not says ANYWHERE to use itself to run a country. The quran, quite simply put it, is not capable to be used to run a country.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: shamsul-arefin on November 25, 2005, 06:19:54 AM
Quote from: "Nadia25"
Peace.


Quote
U are right, Shamsul. I can sense it coming too. And its ''Quran alone'' and not God alone.


I agree. A friend told me something beautiful the other night.

"you dont read God, you feel God"

I still think the messege of the quraan, is wonderful, but the importent thing is our belive in God.


I agree with your friend..:) indeed it a beautiful remark..:)

shanti/peace
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: born_again on November 25, 2005, 06:33:26 AM
Quote from: "mquran"

Hello ? How did Shariah come into this? Do you know where you are in cyberspace, friend ?

Sigh..Sunnah, fiqh and all the other made up stuff is DIRECT CONTRADICTION to Quranic Law. Have you actually looked at this or what? It was never meant to 'COMPLETE' the country's constitution but to 'SUBVERT'.  Why do you think that NOT A SINGLE element of Sharia law comes from Al-quraan?


I meant the Quran is NOT enough and appropriate for running countries.

Waanzalna ilayka[/color] alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alkitabi wamuhayminan AAalayhi faohkum baynahum bima anzala Allahu wala tattabiAA ahwaahum AAamma jaaka mina alhaqqi likullin jaAAalna minkum shirAAatan waminhajan walaw shaa Allahu lajaAAalakum ommatan wahidatan walakin liyabluwakum feema atakum faistabiqoo alkhayrati ila Allahi marjiAAukum jameeAAan fayunabbi-okum bima kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

5:38 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

Do you think that if the Quran was revealed in 20th century it would have the same laws for adulters for example, whipping?

We are in the space age buddy, wake up  :wink:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 06:46:57 AM
Quote

Do you think that if the Quran was revealed in 20th century it would have the same laws for adulters for example, whipping?

We are in the space age buddy, wake up  :wink:


Khi- Salam. Yes public lashing is the best punishment especially when done today infront of the media so that the whole world could see. That would humiliate the person to an extent that he would never dare do it again. Infact Arnold Schwarzenegger called for a law in california for thieves to stand in the midst of people in the city with a sign board saying "I USED TO STEAL" so yes these rules are perfectly good for space age and even the multi dimensional age if it were to come. The Qurans Law is Univeral unless specified otherwise i.e. if GOD says in Quran like "we forbade FOR THE JEWS..." or "we made the sabbath for the Jews". GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 06:49:12 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

And what about cutting of hands?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 06:50:57 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

And what about cutting of hands?


Khi- Salam. Yes but NOT cutting off completely but to mark them. The Quran gives an example in sura 12:
[12:31]  When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they CUT THEIR HANDS.* They said, "Glory be to GOD, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel."

   *12:31 This is the same word used in 5:38 regarding the hand of the thief, and the sum of sura and verse numbers (12+31 and 5+38) are the same. Therefore, the thief's hand should be marked, not severed as practiced by the corrupted Islam (see Footnote 5:38).

[12:50]  The king said, "Bring him to me." When the messenger came to him, he said, "Go back to your lord and ask him to investigate the women who CUT THEIR HANDS. My Lord is fully aware of their schemes."

     Mathematical Proof Supports Quranic Justice

[5:38]  The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

*5:38 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 12:31 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they ``cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did not ``cut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 5:38 and 12:31, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 12:31, we see the same word (12:50).

GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 06:51:58 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Do you beleive that had prisons in those days?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 06:54:29 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Do you beleive that had prisons in those days?


Khi- Salam. Yes ofcourse. The same sura 12 i quoted above tells us abt Prophet Joseph having been thrown into prison:
[12:32]  She said, "This is the one you blamed me for falling in love with. I did indeed try to seduce him, and he refused. Unless he does what I command him to do, he will surely go to prison, and will be debased."
[12:36]  Two young men were in the prison with him. One of them said, "I saw (in my dream) that I was making wine," and the other said, "I saw myself carrying bread on my head, from which the birds were eating. Inform us of the interpretation of these dreams. We see that you are righteous."
Prisons are very old. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: born_again on November 25, 2005, 07:03:18 AM
Quote from: "idmkhizar"
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

And what about cutting of hands?


Khi- Salam. Yes but NOT cutting off completely but to mark them. The Quran gives an example in sura 12:
[12:31]  When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they CUT THEIR HANDS.* They said, "Glory be to GOD, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel."

   *12:31 This is the same word used in 5:38 regarding the hand of the thief, and the sum of sura and verse numbers (12+31 and 5+38) are the same. Therefore, the thief's hand should be marked, not severed as practiced by the corrupted Islam (see Footnote 5:38).

[12:50]  The king said, "Bring him to me." When the messenger came to him, he said, "Go back to your lord and ask him to investigate the women who CUT THEIR HANDS. My Lord is fully aware of their schemes."

     Mathematical Proof Supports Quranic Justice

[5:38]  The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

*5:38 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 12:31 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they ``cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did not ``cut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 5:38 and 12:31, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 12:31, we see the same word (12:50).

GOD Bless!


See how the division between Quranists start. Most of the forum imho (myself inluded) believe that punishment for stealing is NOT marking hands but CUTTING OFF RESOURCES of the thieves.

Now let's imagine that we will have a Quran-only country based on Quranic laws.

Which translation will be enforced?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 07:09:02 AM
Quote

See how the division between Quranists start. Most of the forum imho (myself inluded) believe that punishment for stealing is NOT marking hands but CUTTING OFF RESOURCES of the thieves.

Now let's imagine that we will have a Quran-only country based on Quranic laws.

Which translation will be enforced?


Khi- Salam. To simply answer your qs, the translation accepted by the majority would be enforced. But first we'll have to know whether it's Quran-only or "quran-only" for im 99.999999999% sure that 9:128&129 do NOT belong to the Quran, thus anyone believing that those two are part opf the Quran are not true Quran Aloners for me and many others. Ok now suppose we have a country ruled by Quran Alone code-19 believers. Again it's the opinion/interpretation of the majority which ultimately dominates though all are taken into consideration and could be accepted at a later stage. This is how it always goes. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 08:35:53 AM
Quote
brother mquran...dont be offended pls.....I didnt mention anyones name here...so pls dont take it over you. I have just made a prediction and I am focusing on the mind set..not the Quranic teaching.

If I didnt accept Quran to be guiding book than I wouldnt be in this forum for yearssss........I am just focusing on the pattern which we should be aware of. We should always ask ourselve if we are getting obsessed with something or not. In my opinion Obsession about God is also harmful and can deviat us from sound judgement.


Shamsul, Im not offended. I just think you're being unfair. But its cool, you have your way, I have mine. I AM fanatical about al-quraan and am happy to be because its from Allah, the only thing in life worth being fanatical about.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 08:43:27 AM
Quote
I meant the Quran is NOT enough and appropriate for running countries.


So why did you mention hadith, sunnah and the like ? Do you think how sunnis handle it was CORRECT? If not, why was it worth mentioning?



That's 5/48 not 5/38. And yes, Allah is telling you to judge by His Book. Either you do or you'll be judging according to hawaa, vain desires.

Quote
Do you think that if the Quran was revealed in 20th century it would have the same laws for adulters for example, whipping?

We are in the space age buddy, wake up  


Yes, that's your OPINION. Do you have textual evidence. 5/48 which you quoted completely overruled you there, 'buddy' :)

Also, do you think if you live in the space age, you will lose your essential humanity? Why are human beings still exploiting one another?

Its cool though, if you think the Quran is outdated chuck it out. Be upfront about it. Don't try to be in 2 camps like a hypocrite.

The only person brave enough to admit his kufr to the Quran is Lote Tree. The rest of the democratic camp are nothing but cowards. They never refer to the book and claim that they are muslims. Im still waiting to see ONE verse telling us to refer to the rejectors to establish our deen. One verse....
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 08:56:58 AM
Salam mquran,
Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 08:58:38 AM
Hi Mquran,
Quote from: "mquran"
Quote
Please vote in the poll here on the issue:
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4495


Your initiative is proof of your bias. Look at your wording:
Quote
'religious legislation in all countries according to the religion of majority'.


Is al-quraan promoting a RELIGION?

Devious, PM, real devious.

Al-quraan promotes ad-deen al-islaam , the servitude to Allah alone, through the obedience of his laws. You''re not a muslim unless you submit to His Laws. However, you would ask the approval of al-kuffar before you serve Allah?

Never will al-yahood or an-nasara be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. (2/120)


Isnt Islam a religion? And if a muslim country follows muslim laws , wont it be religious legislation? whats devious in it?
The 2nd option clearly indicated that every country in the world follow laws based on the religion of majority. Be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, sikhs, buddhists etc..
If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims)  in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?

Quote from: "mquran"
Al-quraan predicted your attitude before you even concieved it.


Now, whats this supposed to mean?  Cant u plain discuss with people without being judgemental?
 I can use the same Quran and judge u. But I wont. Coz u r a fellow human being like me, and I respect u for that fact,and I respect the difference in our views as well.  Cant u do that?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 09:01:47 AM
Hi Nadia,
Quote from: "Nadia25"
Peace.
Quote
U are right, Shamsul. I can sense it coming too. And its ''Quran alone'' and not God alone.

I agree. A friend told me something beautiful the other night.
"you dont read God, you feel God"
I still think the messege of the quraan, is wonderful, but the importent thing is our belive in God.


I agree, Nadia.
We can feel God's signs within and outside of us, everywhere.
Thats a good quote. :)

Peace!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 09:05:15 AM
Hi stillearning,
Quote from: "stillearning"
Dangerous indeed this democracy thing might catch on and what might that lead to: Choice for the people, better living standards, freedom to practice their faith or lack of it etc. Very dangerous indeed.
Regards

Thats a good one :P
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 09:09:46 AM
Quote

If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?


Khi- Salam. This cannot be so for legal laws. One single country cant have two legal laws. For example the OT Bible says kill/stone the adulterer while Quran says to lash him while the secular says no punishemtn at all. Now we cant have the court of a country in which there are Jews, christians, muslims and seculars ask again and agaian "are you jew or muslim or secular or christian" and then punish or leave accordingly. That wont work. If the Christians or Muslims want that such happen the country would split into two and no longer remain one. The laws is what makes up the country primarily. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 09:09:50 AM
Hi Mquran,
Quote from: "mquran"
The only person brave enough to admit his kufr to the Quran is Lote Tree. The rest of the democratic camp are nothing but cowards. They never refer to the book and claim that they are muslims.


Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 09:16:49 AM
Hi Idmkhizar,
Quote from: "idmkhizar"
Quote

If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?


Khi- Salam. This cannot be so for legal laws. One single country cant have two legal laws. For example the OT Bible says kill/stone the adulterer while Quran says to lash him. Now we cant have the court of a country in which there are Jews, christians and muslims ask again and agaian "are you jew or muslim" and then punish accordingly. That wont work. If the Christians or Muslims want that such happen the country would split into two and no longer remain one. The laws is what makes up the country primarily. GOD Bless!


I agree that there cant be many different legislations  in one country. What I mean was, if u r saying muslims countries should have Quranic legislation for all, then its only fair to say christian countries can have christian legislation for all in their country, jews have jewish legislation for all in thei country, hindus have hindu legislation for all in their countries etc

Let me give an example: Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 09:24:33 AM
Quote

I agree that there cant be many different legislations  in one country. What I mean was, if u r saying muslims countries should have Quranic legislation for all, then its only fair to say christian countries can have christian legislation for all in their country, jews have jewish legislation for all in thei country, hindus have hindu legislation for all in their countries etc


Khi- Salam. Yep, obviously if thts what they want.

Quote

Let me give an example: Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?


Khi- Id prefer not to live there and 2ndly how do you define just. For a faction of hindus(not all agree to sati) sati is just and they have thir reasons, though weird they maybe,  to justify it. If you think only secularity is just then your wrong. Countries which want secularism and the majority chooses it, fine but as a believer we must not strive for such. We must strive for quranistan. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 09:35:45 AM
Hi Idmkhizar,

Sati was one extreme example I chose, to explain. There are loads of other customs. Thankfully, the practice has come to extinction becoz of the awareness amongst people.
If one can live there, in a secular legislation, peacefully with all people and practice religion in one's  personal space, is that wrong?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 09:42:25 AM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"
Hi Idmkhizar,

Sati was one extreme example I chose, to explain. There are loads of other customs. Thankfully, the practice has come to extinction becoz of the awareness amongst people.
If one can live there, in a secular legislation, peacefully with all people and practice religion in one's  personal space, is that wrong?


Khi- Salam. For a believer i said he/she must strive for the Quranic laws to be put in action(thats one form of jihaad), not with violence but by words and educating people. If ur just content with secularity then u dont believe in Quran. Id say secularism is the intermediate stage btw corrupted relgious laws and the Quran. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 09:55:43 AM
Hi Idmkhizar,
Quote from: "idmkhizar"

Khi- Salam. For a believer i said he/she must strive for the Quranic laws to be put in action(thats one form of jihaad), not with violence but by words and educating people. If ur just content with secularity then u dont believe in Quran. Id say secularism is the intermediate stage btw corrupted relgious laws and the Quran. GOD Bless!

I would disagree with ur views but at the same time, I respect them.
And I dont see the need to tell people,''listen, this is true and will work and is best''. If it is so, It will just be plain evident and people can see it without being told to. Truth speaks for itself.
And we all believe in Quran. But I guess, Our interpretations and understandings differ. LIke u believe in Code 19 and RK, I dont, though I believe the Quran.
But its ok to have our differences as long as we respect each other.
Lets pray Allah guides all of us to the truth.

Peace to u!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 10:00:28 AM
Salaamun alaikum Khizar,

Quote
Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!


No. I looked into it 7 years ago and rejected all of it by 1999.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 10:04:47 AM
Quote

I would disagree with ur views but at the same time, I respect them.
And I dont see the need to tell people,''listen, this is true and will work and is best''. If it is so, It will just be plain evident and people can see it without being told to. Truth speaks for itself.


Khi- Salam. You must consider the fact that many people are ignorant and or deliberately kept ignorant by the media so that they have to be warned and it is out duty as believers to do so. Why otherwise do you think GOD sent messengers?

Quote

And we all believe in Quran. But I guess, Our interpretations and understandings differ. LIke u believe in Code 19 and RK, I dont, though I believe the Quran.
But its ok to have our differences as long as we respect each other.
Lets pray Allah guides all of us to the truth.

Peace to u!


Khi- Ok then heres another difference btw me and you. So you dont believe in Quran Alone then according to me since you would probably believe 9:128&129 belongs to Quran. My qs to you is "Did ypu thoroghly study the code-19 miracle before coming to such conclusion?" because if not you might risk missing to believe in something which may result in you being punished by GOD. So all i ask is go and verify it for yourself. Study each and every point. goto www.submissiontv.com and download RKs Great Debate and the others also. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 10:09:40 AM
Quote from: "mquran"
Salaamun alaikum Khizar,

Quote
Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!


No. I looked into it 7 years ago and rejected all of it by 1999.


Khi- Salam. So then you probably believe in 9:128&129 as part of Quran which would make you a non Quran Aloner acording to me. 2ndly did you study each and every point carefully before conclusing such or just skimmed through it and then a person came up pointing out some "errors" to you and you said "thts it, its nonsese"? If the latter is the case i advise you to be more careful.Study each and every point with care. Thats all i can say. In a post "to ming lo..." i mentioned some important websites which i advise you should consider. Last but not least without code-19 the Quran cannot be proven thus your being bent on following Quranic laws is based simply on your heart's feeling rather than rationality. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 10:10:34 AM
Quote
PM :Isnt Islam a religion? And if a muslim country follows muslim laws , wont it be religious legislation? whats devious in it?


Islam is a DEEN. A deen is something which a slave follows for his rabb/ilah. We are told that to serve Allah, we must follow his laws (12/40) and we must be our deen EXCLUSIVELY to him (39/3). You're not a muslim by going into the mosque and hitting your forehead on the floor 17 times a day. You become a muslim by orientating your qiblah towards masjid al-haraam, which is the establishment of God's huruumat in the world.


Quote
The 2nd option clearly indicated that every country in the world follow laws based on the religion of majority. Be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, sikhs, buddhists etc..
If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?


Huh? If some guy came up to you and said 'my religion commands me to murder kids in order to please my lord Beelzebub', would you allow him to do this in your secular domain ?


Quote
Now, whats this supposed to mean? Cant u plain discuss with people without being judgemental?
I can use the same Quran and judge u. But I wont. Coz u r a fellow human being like me, and I respect u for that fact,and I respect the difference in our views as well. Cant u do that?


Yes, PLEASE judge me using al-quraan. Everything I say, judge it with the book. Please do this. For once in your discourse, OPEN THE BOOK and show us where it supports your position. PLEASE.


Quote
Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?


Lote-Tree doesn't believe in the divinity of the Quran nor its eternal laws. He's the only brave enough to admit and I respect him for it.


Quote
Let me give an example: Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?


Gosh, this is a FALSE dichotomy. All we have really are choices of LAWS:

1. Law of a 'secular democracy'
2. Laws of various 'religious govts'

Both are LAWS.

We choose the one closer to al-quraan which is secular democracy. This doesn't make it perfect. Only what comes from al-quraan (for muslims) is perfect.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 10:12:11 AM
Hi IDMkhizar,
Quote from: "idmkhizar"
So you dont believe in Quran Alone then according to me since you would probably believe 9:128&129 belongs to Quran.


Yes, U can have ur opinions.
My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 10:13:51 AM
Quote
My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same


Especially not the Quran's. Not once have you referred to it for your principles. That's your business of course only I find it strange that a 'peaceful MUSLIM' cannot backing from his own book.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 25, 2005, 10:19:53 AM
Hi Mquran,
Quote from: "mquran"
Quote
My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same

Especially not the Quran's. Not once have you referred to it for your principles. That's your business of course only I find it strange that a 'peaceful MUSLIM' cannot backing from his own book.

I have quoted enough verses to u in discussions. And U have easily misinterpreted for ur benefit.

Here are some  Quote that u need to really contemplate on, and I have quoted these to u umpteen times as well:
Quote
49:10 The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.

49:11 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.

49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)
.


Peace!

And if u have nothing but lack of manners, to offer repeatedly, please dont bother to have discussions with me.

Peace!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 10:40:48 AM
Quote

Yes, U can have ur opinions.
My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same.


Khi- Salam. Ok no prblem but i wonder why your taking that risk and not study code-19 throughly. Why take a risk in not believing in a sign of GOD. Thats what im suggesting you to study it. Its upto you now. Btw PM are you male or female? GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: KGB on November 25, 2005, 11:03:44 AM
Forum has turned into a complete mess with shameless people who believe that the Qur'anic Laws are corrupt and do not hesitate with shamless claims Qur'anic Laws would be very much different if the revelation was in present time.

The level of intelligence of these  idiots can be determined by the questions like speed of driving, computer hacking. They have no intelligence and no knowledge of the message.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 11:56:04 AM
SaLaM PM and idmkhizar

Quote
And U have easily misinterpreted for ur benefit.


This is waht happens when you try to discuss with monkeys. And believe me, its a pun towards monkeys.

Quote from: "idmkhizar"
Ok no prblem but i wonder why your taking that risk and not study code-19 throughly.


Is studing code 19 , in any way , shape or form , neccessary towards my salvation?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: idolfree1 on November 25, 2005, 12:33:38 PM
Peace be upon you,

Quote
Last but not least without code-19 the Quran cannot be proven thus your being bent on following Quranic laws is based simply on your heart's feeling rather than rationality.


Amazing logic, too bad for those before Rashad Khalifa  :?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 12:34:33 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM PM and idmkhizar

Quote
And U have easily misinterpreted for ur benefit.


This is waht happens when you try to discuss with monkeys. And believe me, its a pun towards monkeys.

Quote from: "idmkhizar"
Ok no prblem but i wonder why your taking that risk and not study code-19 throughly.


Is studing code 19 , in any way , shape or form , neccessary towards my salvation?


Khi- Salam. Yep or else ud be taking 9:128&129 as part of the Quran resulting in believing hadith besides Quran and hence disobeying GOD's commandment in the Quran not to take hadith besides it. But you would also miss the chance of witnessing one of GOD's greatest signs and which honest person would wanna miss that. Its awesome if you witness it. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 12:43:58 PM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Hey i thought God was supposed to protect the Quran  :wink:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Hey i thought God was supposed to protect the Quran  :wink:


Khi- Salam. Ok so according to you GOD should become visible and protect the Quran or how should it be? You see there are means which GOD uses to do something, mostly natural means. It is GOD who designed the mathematical system and thereby has protected the Quran. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 01:03:17 PM
Quote

Amazing logic, too bad for those before Rashad Khalifa  :?


Khi- Salam. Here i always tell people that we dont know what was before that and so the important thing is what we have/see now. But we dont know what signs GOD may have sent to believers,if any, before RK. Then it is also possible that GOD has calculated that no one would be a real believer from 19 years after the Prophet till 1974(just another possibility). So why discuss the past. Important is whats there infront of us now in this time, not what was before that. Those are just silly excuses in order to take people away from GOD's signs of which there could well come more in the future. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 01:03:45 PM
ZOMGGG!!!!!!

What is this im hearing from you idmkhizar?? God cannot protect its own Quran? You didnt seem to have a problem in beleive that when i said Quran is altered and changed?  :wink:
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 01:06:16 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
ZOMGGG!!!!!!

What is this im hearing from you idmkhizar?? God cannot protect its own Quran? You didnt seem to have a problem in beleive that when i said Quran is altered and changed?  :wink:


Khi- Salam. GOD did protect His Quran by the code-19 mathematical patterns. I wonder what you mean now. The Quran didnt change at all. People tried to change it and GOD showed through one of His messegers RK that it aint possible. He may have shown it before also, who knows, but we dont know and its not important. Whts important is what we have now. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 01:09:07 PM
SaLaM idmkhizar

So you are saying that the Quran is EXACTLY the same as it was revealed 1400 years ago? Nothing added... nothing taken out... nothing changed?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 01:10:46 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

So you are saying that the Quran is EXACTLY the same as it was revealed 1400 years ago? Nothing added... nothing taken out... nothing changed?


Khi- Salam. Yep. People did try to change it ofcourse but they failed as code-19 has shown. And now please dont ask how come then people were allowed to change it. Its simple GOD promised to preserve the Quran, yes thus this is a law. Now we all know that a law cannot be proven to exist UNLESS SOMEONE TRIES TO BREAK IT. Get me? For example if i make a law that you cannot leave a room and you stay in that room forever then nobody would ever know that such a rule existed. But if you try to get out, then my guards throw you back in, then wed know the rule exists. Same is with the promise of them Quran. The people tried to put false verses in the Quran but GOD through the mathematical code showed that this aint possible and they are thrown back out. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 01:12:13 PM
SaLaM idmkhizar

So you dont beleive that a goat ate a page out of the Quran? Or the shias's claim that a surah has been taken out. Or the Ahmadis claim that the Quran has been altered? You are saying that the Quran is EXACTLY the same as it was revaled 1400 years ago?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Idris on November 25, 2005, 01:13:47 PM
peace jaxal,

sorry to come out of nowhere in the convo but

Quote
So you dont beleive that a goat ate a page out of the Quran?


lol u do believe this? despite the fact it came from a "hadith"?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

So you dont beleive that a goat ate a page out of the Quran? Or the shias's claim that a surah has been taken out. Or the Ahmadis claim that the Quran has been altered? You are saying that the Quran is EXACTLY the same as it was revaled 1400 years ago?


Khi- Salam. I neither believe in the goat junk nor the shias neither  the ahmadis claims. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 01:20:09 PM
SaLam idmkhizar

Lolll ok good. There is a thread which is called "How authentic is the Quran". Have a read through it. Perhaps you can refute its claim?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 01:21:44 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLam idmkhizar

Lolll ok good. There is a thread which is called "How authentic is the Quran". Have a read through it. Perhaps you can refute its claim?


Khi- Salam. Post the link please. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 01:33:54 PM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Here is the link:

How Authentic Is The Quran. (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55061#55061)

Refute the evidence if you can. Mquran has already embaressed himself on this thread.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Here is the link:

How Authentic Is The Quran. (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55061#55061)

Refute the evidence if you can. Mquran has already embaressed himself on this thread.


Khi- Salam. The problem is mquran doesnt believe in code-19 miracle so it may well be that his arguments will fail. This only further strengthens my point. Without code-19 you cannot prove the Quran, not in this time period. We dont know what the future holds but right now code-19 is the access or as bro Bahman would say the GPS GOD cerated for us to get access to the Quran. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 25, 2005, 02:14:53 PM
Salaam KGB

Quote
Forum has turned into a complete mess with shameless people who believe that the Qur'anic Laws are corrupt and do not hesitate with shamless claims Qur'anic Laws would be very much different if the revelation was in present time.

The level of intelligence of these idiots can be determined by the questions like speed of driving, computer hacking. They have no intelligence and no knowledge of the message.[/quote]

Have you been bullied or are you being bullied now. Please dont keep suffering like this as there are good counsellor out there who can help you. :(  

Salaam jaxal

What harm have monkeys inflicted upon you that you have to be so rude them :wink:  :wink:

Salaam PM

Please continue to keep your cool. :D  

regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 25, 2005, 02:57:17 PM
Quote from: "peacefulmuslim"

Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?


I never confessed to a such thing!
I don't label myself with anything.
I am just a human being. And if anyone has a problem with that and want to put a label on me then it is their problem. I won't go to the Moderators and complain and threaten to quit from this forum!

But I will not label people so easily. I take all individuals as human beings. And if these humans beings want to believe that the world is flat and is supported on the back of giant turtle or that their scripture gives them a "high" conceptual adventure then I will not label them as "kufr" or "blinkered"...  

So for everyones information this is a summary of my position, this was response to nehdia's thread, if any one one to look it up...

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4039&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Quote

Quote from: "nehdia_s"

This being the case, I no longer feel the need to bind myself to the dictates of any one scripture, or any scripture at all.


I am impressed with your insight into the connections between the worlds religions. I have myself being arguing on this forum that "transcendence" is the key to human spirituality, and the reality that many have called "God", "Allah", "Nirvana", "Tao", "Brahman-Atman" are derived from the human experience of "transcendence". All scripture is therefore is an interpretation in limited human language of a "transcendent" reality that lies beyond reason and language. This has also been the insight of the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Mystics and Meditators. But it has been hard to make others see this connection that you have made on your own.

I have also argued that "God" is not an OBJECTIVE fact but has always been a SUBJECTIVE experience of the individual. Even Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to highest heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative-trance" to meet his "maker". Therefore "Revelation" is an event that happens in each individual soul and therefore every individual is capable of having an experience like the Prophets. This experience is had via meditation.

As for myself I have not progressed enough in my meditation to "confirm" any of this "trascendence" yet. But I have so far achieved a "sense" of "infinte space" and "unity" within myself in my meditation sessions. I would like to believe, however, I am on the right track and perhaps one day it may lead to enlightenement. I will just have to remain patient, courageous and dedicated and continue to cultivate and nurture compassion for my fellow human beings and for myself too.

I am glad that your spiritual transformation have helped you to deal with your sexuality and the abuse. My spiritual transformation has allowed me to connect with humanity regardless of their religious beliefs as opposed to connecting myself to a certain scripture or set of beliefs. I now celeberate the best of humanity and also come to terms with worst of humanity through understanding. But I have not reached the end yet. I am still learning, I am still continuing with my spiritual journey but I am glad that I have met another traveller on this lonely spiritual path  


Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 03:00:33 PM
SaLaM stillearning and idmkhizar

stillearning:

I guess in the world KGB lives, there is no speeding or computer hacking... what is that? Neverland?  :D

idmkhizar:

I will be waiting for your refutation on that post. Lets continue the discussion there. Ok?  :)
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 25, 2005, 05:25:18 PM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM stillearning and idmkhizar

stillearning:

I guess in the world KGB lives, there is no speeding or computer hacking... what is that? Neverland?  :D

idmkhizar:

I will be waiting for your refutation on that post. Lets continue the discussion there. Ok?  :)


Khi- Salam- What refutation? They dont believe in code-19, thats it, all the other arguments are useless and have been repeated over and over again. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 25, 2005, 05:35:38 PM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Wow. So you are given two verses from the Quran. One with added words and you think its becoz they dont beleive in code 19? That dont even make sense. Code 19 has nothing to do with the alteration in the Quran.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 05:42:26 PM
Salaamun alaikum Khi,

Quote
Khi- Salam. So then you probably believe in 9:128&129 as part of Quran which would make you a non Quran Aloner acording to me.


Dude, there's the following camps:
1. submitters
2. yuksel's neo-submitters
3. toluislam
4. neo-toluislam by shabbir ahmed
5. layth's camp

all claiming to be 'quranic'. I dont believe in any of thier methods. What do you think your opinion does to me ?

As long as Im in concordance with al-quraan, that's all i care about.


Quote
2ndly did you study each and every point carefully before conclusing such or just skimmed through it and then a person came up pointing out some "errors" to you and you said "thts it, its nonsese"?


In the summer of 1999, the debate went on for months. At one point, 250 mails were sent in a DAY. But at the end, the 19er Arch-priestess Aisha Musa couldn't answer the questions. That sealed the issue for me.



Quote
If the latter is the case i advise you to be more careful.Study each and every point with care. Thats all i can say. In a post "to ming lo..." i mentioned some important websites which i advise you should consider.


Thanks. I know the arguments and i've answered them , with due respect.

 
Quote
Last but not least without code-19 the Quran cannot be proven thus your being bent on following Quranic laws is based simply on your heart's feeling rather than rationality. GOD Bless!


Pal, GOD HIMSELF didn't postulate your reasoning. Check these 2 out:

EVEN IF We had sent unto thee a written  parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say: "This is nothing but obvious magic (6/7)

EVEN IF We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15/14-15)

So God's telling us, EVEN IF he showed this, they wouldn't believe. So this is the best objective evidence he can give yet people won't believe. So please, don't set up conditions about how to believe in al-quraan when Allah already set it up for you.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 05:43:27 PM
Quote
PM:I have quoted enough verses to u in discussions. And U have easily misinterpreted for ur benefit.


Give us one example please. A single verse which you used to support your ideology.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 05:47:49 PM
Quote
Forum has turned into a complete mess with shameless people who believe that the Qur'anic Laws are corrupt and do not hesitate with shamless claims Qur'anic Laws would be very much different if the revelation was in present time.

 
Brother KGB, think of it like this : Is al-quraan from Allah and did it tell us without qualification to judge with it? If our answer is 'yes' sincerely (unlike most ppl on this thread), then how can it be different if al-quraan descended today? Its only because these democrats are intoxicated with modernity not knowing Allah said about following the vain desires. Sadly, there's nothing we can do except deliver the message.


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The level of intelligence of these idiots can be determined by the questions like speed of driving, computer hacking. They have no intelligence and no knowledge of the message.


More importantly, they dont WANT to know it. Seeing just how many times the modernists quote the ayaat is enough for me to see thier sincerety. Al-quraan have us flexibility of how we carry out His Commands, but His Commands are constant.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 05:51:53 PM
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Khi- Salam. The problem is mquran doesnt believe in code-19 miracle so it may well be that his arguments will fail. This only further strengthens my point. Without code-19 you cannot prove the Quran, not in this time period. We dont know what the future holds but right now code-19 is the access or as bro Bahman would say the GPS GOD cerated for us to get access to the Quran. GOD Bless!


Khizar, you seem like a sincere chap unlike some people. You know the ayaat which is your signature. THAT'S the key to understanding the authenticity and conceptual power of al-quraan. Al-quraan is the ETERNAL PROPHECY of humankind. Humankind cannot operate outside its laws, THATS the grip of Allah. That's all I have to say to you. Peace.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 25, 2005, 05:53:28 PM
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I never confessed to a such thing!
I don't label myself with anything.
I am just a human being. And if anyone has a problem with that and want to put a label on me then it is their problem. I won't go to the Moderators and complain and threaten to quit from this forum!


Simple question to LoteTree (he avoided my precise syntax for a reason):

Do you believe al-quraan is God's eternal system for humankind?

Yes or no?

If answer is no, that's kufr to the Quran.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Ali Omar on November 25, 2005, 06:44:56 PM
Hi,

I am not sure how much we all understand of God?s system and the guidelines laid down in God?s words in the quran and the signs in the world around us.

Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??

It seems to be a common understanding that the rules and regulations we can find in the quran are in opposition to the function of the human being and the universe as a whole.
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?

The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.

It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a ?muslim? he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I don?t quite know how to put it; maybe ?stupidity? is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a ?muslim? one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a ?muslim?.

There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To ?run a country? in accordance to the ?laws? of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.

There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of God?s system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.

There is no such thing as complete and total democracy.
We all have to obey certain ground rules in the universe that humans can not change, however much we wish to do so.
Democracy, therefore, works within a frame of rules and regulations, outside of human control.
This seems to be difficult to understand.

The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.
We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.

It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you ?do not believe?. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you ?do not understand? that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.

All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
As an example, the quran does not say that, if you are proven a fornicator, then you MUST be punished with 100 lashes.
It sets a tough maximum punishment as a possibility, to emphasize that this can be a very detrimental action. However, punishment is not the primary goal in islam, the way it usually is in our human law systems; it is to lead us and to set things right, in any way possible, if something wrong has been done.

Many of the detailed laws we have developed ourselves, take into account the circumstances surrounding an act, thereby diversifying legal actions.
Why do we not consider God to be vastly more capable of this than some individual human beings?
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why don?t we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
What is important to us as a group called humanity?
To worship ?something?........? To feed our egos............? What?

Regards

Ali Omar
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 12:33:16 AM
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Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into “muslims” and “non-muslims”?


Misleading question. The essential being of humankind is ummatan wahid, a single ummah however, since people seek things between themselves, its THEY who cause themselve to be divided (2/213). So you can either be in submission to God's system or not.

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It seems to be a common understanding that the rules and regulations we can find in the quran are in opposition to the function of the human being and the universe as a whole.


A wrongful understanding if it is indeed common. Al-quraan's laws are there to ensure the creation of salaam in our lives.

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Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?


The modernists/democrats don't because to them, al-quraan is an outdated book.

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The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.


This is your opinion. Evidence please.

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It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a “muslim” he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I don’t quite know how to put it; maybe “stupidity” is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a “muslim” one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a “muslim”.


I agree with you on 'stupidity' but disagree in your last sentence. In Quranic discourse, a 'muslim' is a person who has committed himself to growth in an islamic domain. Its *similar* to being a citizen if you like. As a citizen you undertake the contract to follow laws of a certain polity. A muslim follows something similar to this. So if a christian entered a muslim domain with this pledge, he's a 'muslim'. He can believe whatever he likes and pray however he likes. That's not being encroached upon whatsoeer.

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There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To “run a country” in accordance to the “laws” of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.


Agreed. Well said.

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There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of God’s system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.


I do understand how such naiveness exists. The media does invade the minds to that degree in most cases.

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There is no such thing as complete and total democracy.
We all have to obey certain ground rules in the universe that humans can not change, however much we wish to do so.
Democracy, therefore, works within a frame of rules and regulations, outside of human control.
This seems to be difficult to understand.


This frame of rules and regulations is the human essence. Al-quraan is the detailling of that essence.

Quote
The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.


Evidence please, that al-quraan is 'a guide to an optimal form of democracy'.


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We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.


Your syntax doesn't follow here. The interpretative gap, as I call it , which lies between text and understanding of text will always exist. We can only narrow the gap. But whatever we DO understand, we must follow to the letter.


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It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you “do not believe”. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you “do not understand” that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.


Well, Al-quraan calls it 'laa yuminoon'/ they do not believe. I take this to mean that thier essence has been made inaccessible due to kufr (concealment) of God's signs, especially within.


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All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
As an example, the quran does not say that, if you are proven a fornicator, then you MUST be punished with 100 lashes.


How do you interpret that? 24/1 begins with an emphatic statement about how obligatory al-quraan is on us. I take that as a 'must'.

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It sets a tough maximum punishment as a possibility, to emphasize that this can be a very detrimental action. However, punishment is not the primary goal in islam, the way it usually is in our human law systems; it is to lead us and to set things right, in any way possible, if something wrong has been done.


Agreed. Allah commands with justice and ihsaan/proportionate beauty characterised by asmaaul husna.

Quote
Many of the detailed laws we have developed ourselves, take into account the circumstances surrounding an act, thereby diversifying legal actions.
Why do we not consider God to be vastly more capable of this than some individual human beings?
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why don’t we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
What is important to us as a group called humanity?
To worship “something”........? To feed our egos............? What?


What is important to humanity/an-naas is to live so that they may live, die and rise in salaam.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: stillearning on November 26, 2005, 03:17:57 AM
salaam

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But I will not label people so easily. I take all individuals as human beings. And if these humans beings want to believe that the world is flat and is supported on the back of giant turtle or that their scripture gives them a "high" conceptual adventure then I will not label them as "kufr" or "blinkered


Good for you

regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 26, 2005, 06:48:15 AM
SaLaM Idris

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lol u do believe this? despite the fact it came from a "hadith"?


Looooolll no idris, i dont beleive that. But who knows... 1400 years have passed. The shias claim that a surah has been taken out of the Quan. Do you think that they just woke up one day and thought "Ahh i know, i will claim that a surah has been taken out of the Quran to support my belief" ?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Wow. So you are given two verses from the Quran. One with added words and you think its becoz they dont beleive in code 19? That dont even make sense. Code 19 has nothing to do with the alteration in the Quran.


Khi- Salam. Code-19 defines the boundaries of the Qran in our age. Without that there is no Quran but simply conjecture. The Quran as i made cear many times is not just some ink on a piece of paper or manuscript. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 26, 2005, 07:00:18 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Brother, if you said the rotation of pluto determined the authenticity of the Quran, i would repect your opinion. Have you read the "Da Vinci Code" ?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 26, 2005, 07:01:18 AM
hypocrisy?

here is a transcript of a converstation with the forum member "mquran".

Quote

19/09/2005 11:35:54 mq - its like humans have 2 dynamic poles
19/09/2005 11:35:59 mq - the heaven and the earth
19/09/2005 11:36:03 mq -heavenS, sorry
19/09/2005 11:36:23 mq -part of us soar in this heavenly realm, which the poet captures
19/09/2005 11:36:44 mq -but our earthly realm brings us back
19/09/2005 11:37:00 mq -this is where my love of mystical poetry ends
19/09/2005 11:37:05 Lote-Tree -poet captures both chap..
19/09/2005 11:37:15 Lote-Tree -the hell as well as the heaven
19/09/2005 11:37:34 mq -agreed.., but where we depart is that actual program
19/09/2005 11:37:54 mq -i think heaven can be found in the earthly side of things
19/09/2005 11:37:59 mq -if we follow the path
19/09/2005 11:38:03 Lote-Tree -heaven is within us
19/09/2005 11:38:09 Lote-Tree -hell is within us
19/09/2005 11:38:33 Lote-Tree -we would not know the differnece without them
19/09/2005 11:39:01 mq -potentially, yes
19/09/2005 11:39:17 mq -but they must be given birth to
19/09/2005 11:39:30 mq -thats the whole point
19/09/2005 11:40:27 Lote-Tree - elaborate
19/09/2005 11:40:52 mq - well, the concept of heaven is within us, its actualisability is also within our grasp
19/09/2005 11:41:03 mq -but in order to bring it forth, that requires a prograk
19/09/2005 11:41:07 mq -progam*
19/09/2005 11:41:15 mq -all human beings seek that
19/09/2005 11:41:38 mq -the quran calls this 'al-kitaab'...the writ
19/09/2005 11:41:57 mq -as a programmer, what are u trying to do ? ur WRITING something which the system understands
19/09/2005 11:42:06 mq -why ? in order to exploit the usage of the system
19/09/2005 11:42:35 mq -if we discover LIFE'S program, we could do the same
19/09/2005 11:43:52 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
19/09/2005 11:44:29 Lote-Tree -so why bother with quran?
19/09/2005 11:45:13 mq -its the best programming language
19/09/2005 11:45:24 mq -i have not seen concepts so illustrated
19/09/2005 11:45:33 Lote-Tree -for you it is mquran... for you it is
19/09/2005 11:45:38 mq -oh agreed


See the highlighted and now see what you have written now

Quote from: "mquran"

Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?



Hypocrisy?

I think so....

Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 07:10:37 AM
Salam mquran,

Quote

Dude, there's the following camps:
1. submitters
2. yuksel's neo-submitters
3. toluislam
4. neo-toluislam by shabbir ahmed
5. layth's camp

all claiming to be 'quranic'. I dont believe in any of thier methods. What do you think your opinion does to me ?

As long as Im in concordance with al-quraan, that's all i care about.


Khi- It's true there are many different "camps" or rather people who understand some parts of Quran differently but that's not the main issue. The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible. It just doesnt seem logical to me because in this way anyone can just add up some verses in between what you now call as Quran and voila in a few years therell be a group having another "quran" with additional verses. Those who believe in code-19 i dont have much problems with them even if we have more or less differences in interpretation of ceratin verses for i believe those would be clarified gradually in the future GW as per the ayat in my signature.

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In the summer of 1999, the debate went on for months. At one point, 250 mails were sent in a DAY. But at the end, the 19er Arch-priestess Aisha Musa couldn't answer the questions. That sealed the issue for me.


Khi- I dont know why your putting an innocent woman down. Why dont you challenge bro Edip to a debate and then well see?

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Thanks. I know the arguments and i've answered them , with due respect.


Khi- Ok.

Quote

Pal, GOD HIMSELF didn't postulate your reasoning. Check these 2 out:

EVEN IF We had sent unto thee a written  parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say: "This is nothing but obvious magic (6/7)

EVEN IF We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15/14-15)

So God's telling us, EVEN IF he showed this, they wouldn't believe. So this is the best objective evidence he can give yet people won't believe. So please, don't set up conditions about how to believe in al-quraan when Allah already set it up for you.


Khi- In the above verses GOD is obviously talking about the people who have received enough signs and yet are rejecting and thus would continue to reject, logically which is not the case with code-19 believers for they surely believe dont they? This ofcourse varies from time to time from generation to generation and GOD knows this. Thats why the following verse:
[2:106]  When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, We produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
The above verses you quoted are often brough up by code-19 rejectors and then i show them verses from the Quran that those who reject GOD's "ayaat(any signs from GOD)" are kaafir no matter whether theyd believed before and thats the issue here. It's not that we asked for code-19. GOD knew why and He is the one Who sent it to us and we would be arrogant to reject it, plain and simple. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 26, 2005, 07:13:11 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Quote
The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible.


You think Abraham and Muhammad believe in code 19?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 07:14:09 AM
Salam Jaxal and mquran

Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Brother, if you said the rotation of pluto determined the authenticity of the Quran, i would repect your opinion. Have you read the "Da Vinci Code" ?


Khi- Now this statement of yours is what applies exatly to the verses quoted by mquran that those who dont wont to believe would never do so and go on make excuses. Can you see it Jaxal? Your not happy with GOD's code-19 sign and now you say that if plutos rotation was somehow connected to the Quran then id have considered it. This verse is for you:
[6:35]  If their rejection gets to be too much for you, you should know that even if you dug a tunnel through the earth, or climbed a ladder into the sky, and produced a miracle for them (they still would not believe). Had GOD willed, He could have guided them, unanimously. Therefore, do not behave like the ignorant ones.
GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 07:18:02 AM
Salam jaxal,

Quote

You think Abraham and Muhammad believe in code 19?


Khi- Like i said, forget the past. We dont know what were the conditions at that time. It could be possible that since those were in direct contact with the Prophet then obviously at that time the Quran wasnt written down and people could get the Message through him directly. After the Prophets death people started to forge hadith again and i believe because of that GOD took the true Quran away from the people for many years or had other methods of showing the true Quran to sincere believers of which we have no knowledge. Remeber the Quran says not to argue about things of which we have no knoledge as well. We should appreciate TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW. How many times do i have to repeat myself. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 26, 2005, 07:32:53 AM
Hi Ali Omar,
Quote from: "Ali Omar"
Hi,

Welcome to the discussion.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
I am not sure how much we all understand of God?s system and the guidelines laid down in God?s words in the quran and the signs in the world around us.
Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??

I agree all of mankind are equal to God.


Quote from: "Ali Omar"
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?

I agree.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.

I agree.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a ?muslim? he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I don?t quite know how to put it; maybe ?stupidity? is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a ?muslim? one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a ?muslim?.

Can u please explain ur views?

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To ?run a country? in accordance to the ?laws? of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.
There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of God?s system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.

Please explain.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.

I agree. But some believers of Quran believe that Quran is anti-democratic and that according to Quran, country should be governed by a rasul/messenger who would follow Quranic laws to govern and add other laws as necessary. Would u suggest the same?
U should give this thread a read: http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4140


Quote from: "Ali Omar"
We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.

I agree. I think its important to understand the message of the Quran, and imply in our lives, instead of getting fanatical about Quran itself. But some Quran believers here,  claim that every word we utter should be proven/mentioned in quranic verses else u r a 'Kafir'.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you ?do not believe?. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you ?do not understand? that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.

I agree.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.

I agree.

Quote from: "Ali Omar"
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why don?t we reflect on what to use these gifts for?

I agree.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 26, 2005, 08:03:57 AM
Quote
Like i said, forget the past.


No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.

Quote
i believe because of that GOD took the true Quran away from the people for many years or had other methods of showing the true Quran to sincere believers of which we have no knowledge.


So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.

Quote
Remeber the Quran says not to argue about things of which we have no knoledge as well


The above has nothing to do with code 19.

Quote
We should appreciate TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW


What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: peacefulmuslim on November 26, 2005, 08:24:20 AM
Hi Mquran,

Here is my answer to ur posts:

Do u believe wisdom/knowledge/goodness exsists out of Quran as well?
Or If not,  do u beleive all that man knows today, all the discoveries, all the lessons learnt are from Man(MaN BEING SUPERIOR) himself and not from God?
Bang, I believe all the knowledege, all the wisdom, all the goodness on earth and beyond is from God. And Man attains knowlegde, wisdom only with Allah's will/ favour and guidance.

Quote
19:76 "And Allah doth advance in guidance those who seek guidance: and the things that endure, Good Deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best in respect of (their) eventual return."


see the difference? Now dont bother replying though.
And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs  exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's  signs and wisdom  are in Quran only.

If someone talks of stuff not mentioned in Quran or even utters words not in Quran, u ask for quotes from Quran and call them kafirs.

U read the same QUran that we do. But our understanding of it, is different from  urs. I said Allah wants us to be respectful of all, and u refute that. Are u saying God is unjust or God doesnt condider virtue and righteousness  as essential criteria for humanbeings? I have repeatedly quoted the verses to u but u dont want to see it.

Mquran, I dont have to prove to u, in which discussions u used abuses and in which posts I used Quran quotes.  U can see it urself if u do some homework. I dont have to prove anything to u nor do I have to seek ur approval about anything. U r just a human being like me.

Here is my request once again: I dont want to discuss with u coz, u lack basic manners. So, this is my final post to u.
I apologise if I have been impolite anytime.
Thank u.

Peace!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 26, 2005, 08:26:41 AM
SaLam PM

Quote
To u, God's only signs are in Quran.


A changed and altered Quran at that.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 08:39:50 AM
Quote

No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.


Khi- Salam. Oh you believe in that cavemen junk? Well i dont and there are many many people out there who share my views. I believe mankind was created perfect like Adam who new all the names of animals and had probably a much greater intellect than us  today. Remeber Quran says:
[50:36]  Many a generation before them, who were more powerful, we annihilated. They searched the land; did they find an escape?
And 2ndly i was talking about not to conjecture of the past. All is conjecture. Like i said we dont know what signs GOD gave to them so thats why it is totally irrelevant. These are silly excuses just to ignore any new signs which GOD has or GW will provide us with in the future. Get it?

Quote

So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.


Khi- To the Mushaf yes NOT the Quran. PLZ try to understand this. The corrupt Muslims, id say, didnt deserve the true Quran no more. GOD knew whats in their hearts while we do not and allows things to happen accordingly. The statement "allowed them enter in the Quran" is incorrect. The Quran is NOT mere ink and paper which you and most others here have still not understood.

Quote

The above has nothing to do with code 19.


Khi- Heh?

Quote

What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.


Khi- :lol:   What are you saying? Code-19 is crystal clear for those whove studied it like bros Bahman, Edip , myself and many others. Some people just cant see the miracle and GOD knows their hearts and thus the reasons as to why they dont. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 26, 2005, 08:55:17 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

Lets continue the discussion on this thread : http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65302#65302
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Lets continue the discussion on this thread : http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65302#65302


Khi- Ok
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: NoProgressive on November 26, 2005, 09:35:17 AM
As Salaam Alaikum Everyone,

I believe that the Quranic laws should prevail over everything, and everyone.  But we should note that there are some laws that have only been made for the believers, and not for all people.


Other than that, other things can be debated.


I'm down with God! I don't like to run away from him, and act like religion doesn't exist. It does! I hate secularism.

salam
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 11:15:57 AM
Quote
19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs

Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?


In the 'secular democracy' religion, does PROGRAMS mean SCRIPTURES ? How well you twist words, LT :)

29/69 of al-quraan approves of SUBUUL, multiple PATHS , but never any other scripture.

I challenge you to bring proof from al-quraan to the contrary.

Further, I challenge you to bring your 'objective instruments of analysis'. Your inability to do so only shows the empty nature of your lofty ideals. When you condescend towards those who believe in the absolute truth of al-quraan, you should remember that free-thinkers like you are also accountable for what they say.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 11:29:10 AM
Salaam Khi,

Quote
Khi- It's true there are many different "camps" or rather people who understand some parts of Quran differently but that's not the main issue
.

You alleged I'm not 'quran only'. Im only answering you by telling you I couldn't care less. No offense.


Quote
The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible.


I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?

Quote

 It just doesnt seem logical to me because in this way anyone can just add up some verses in between what you now call as Quran and voila in a few years therell be a group having another "quran" with additional verses. Those who believe in code-19 i dont have much problems with them even if we have more or less differences in interpretation of ceratin verses for i believe those would be clarified gradually in the future GW as per the ayat in my signature.


Yes, anyone can write another 'quran' but would it be the one in eminence (az-zikr) ? Never. Az-zikr is the one known in the world and any changes would be immediately known.



Quote
Khi- I dont know why your putting an innocent woman down. Why dont you challenge bro Edip to a debate and then well see?


Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.



Quote
Khi- In the above verses GOD is obviously talking about the people who have received enough signs and yet are rejecting and thus would continue to reject, logically which is not the case with code-19 believers for they surely believe dont they? This ofcourse varies from time to time from generation to generation and GOD knows this. Thats why the following verse:
[2:106]  When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, We produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
The above verses you quoted are often brough up by code-19 rejectors and then i show them verses from the Quran that those who reject GOD's "ayaat(any signs from GOD)" are kaafir no matter whether theyd believed before and thats the issue here. It's not that we asked for code-19. GOD knew why and He is the one Who sent it to us and we would be arrogant to reject it, plain and simple. GOD Bless!


Hmm, lets start from beginning, ok?

19 is the miracle of the Quran, you assert. Correct?

If 19 is the miracle, why wasn't 19 mentioned as the 'even if' verses ? Why is there only mentioned the literal descent of a book on paper and the ascent of the person into heaven?

God's saying, EVEN IF he does this, they won't believe.

Why didn't he say EVEN IF he showed the most intricate 19 aspect, they wont believe? If 19 is the miracle of the Quran?

That's what im saying.

[/quote]
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: LoteTree on November 26, 2005, 11:31:02 AM
hypocrisy?

here is a transcript of a converstation with the forum member "mquran".

Quote

19/09/2005 11:35:54 mq - its like humans have 2 dynamic poles
19/09/2005 11:35:59 mq - the heaven and the earth
19/09/2005 11:36:03 mq -heavenS, sorry
19/09/2005 11:36:23 mq -part of us soar in this heavenly realm, which the poet captures
19/09/2005 11:36:44 mq -but our earthly realm brings us back
19/09/2005 11:37:00 mq -this is where my love of mystical poetry ends
19/09/2005 11:37:05 Lote-Tree -poet captures both chap..
19/09/2005 11:37:15 Lote-Tree -the hell as well as the heaven
19/09/2005 11:37:34 mq -agreed.., but where we depart is that actual program
19/09/2005 11:37:54 mq -i think heaven can be found in the earthly side of things
19/09/2005 11:37:59 mq -if we follow the path
19/09/2005 11:38:03 Lote-Tree -heaven is within us
19/09/2005 11:38:09 Lote-Tree -hell is within us
19/09/2005 11:38:33 Lote-Tree -we would not know the differnece without them
19/09/2005 11:39:01 mq -potentially, yes
19/09/2005 11:39:17 mq -but they must be given birth to
19/09/2005 11:39:30 mq -thats the whole point
19/09/2005 11:40:27 Lote-Tree - elaborate
19/09/2005 11:40:52 mq - well, the concept of heaven is within us, its actualisability is also within our grasp
19/09/2005 11:41:03 mq -but in order to bring it forth, that requires a prograk
19/09/2005 11:41:07 mq -progam*
19/09/2005 11:41:15 mq -all human beings seek that
19/09/2005 11:41:38 mq -the quran calls this 'al-kitaab'...the writ
19/09/2005 11:41:57 mq -as a programmer, what are u trying to do ? ur WRITING something which the system understands
19/09/2005 11:42:06 mq -why ? in order to exploit the usage of the system
19/09/2005 11:42:35 mq -if we discover LIFE'S program, we could do the same
19/09/2005 11:43:52 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
19/09/2005 11:44:29 Lote-Tree -so why bother with quran?
19/09/2005 11:45:13 mq -its the best programming language
19/09/2005 11:45:24 mq -i have not seen concepts so illustrated
19/09/2005 11:45:33 Lote-Tree -for you it is mquran... for you it is
19/09/2005 11:45:38 mq -oh agreed
 
See the highlighted and now see what you have written now

Quote from: "mquran"

Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?


I have highlighted few more lines above so that it may help...

Hypocrisy?
I think so....

Regards,
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 11:34:58 AM
Quote
19/09/2005 11:43:52 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs


Dear Secular Democrat who doesn't know what 'objective instruments of analysis' are, please read what YOU said 'MILLIONS' of different programs.

I responded to that o you who is unable to read...

MILLIONS of programs. can you see MILLIONS of scriptures?

Tsk tsk...scraping the bottom of the barrel now, are we?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 11:37:27 AM
One more message to the Secular Democrat, Robespierre the peaceful :)

How do i know you didn't change anything of the log? You're capable of making empty assertions so I'm not sure our logs is admissible evidence.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 11:39:37 AM
Quote
And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's signs and wisdom are in Quran only.


The fact that you think this shows how closely you've read my posts. You're right, its a futile exercise. Go on, keep misleading people with your 'respect the ones who are killing you' Quran.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 11:44:19 AM
Salam mquran,

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You alleged I'm not 'quran only'. Im only answering you by telling you I couldn't care less. No offense.


Khi- Ok.

Quote

I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?


Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed.

Quote

Yes, anyone can write another 'quran' but would it be the one in eminence (az-zikr) ? Never. Az-zikr is the one known in the world and any changes would be immediately known.


Khi- Now thats a good one. Your accepting one part of GOD's protection method and rejecting the other one logically required. Memorization can guard against loss but NOT against addition and the immediate exposure argument is silly similar to those of the sunnis. A group can be formed over years sneaking in verses. Once it becomes dominant in the world it can claim to the other "muslims" that they are the ones who posess the complete Quran and not the others. Also this argument of yours again involves mere "majority check" while the Quran itself says that the majority will mislead rfom the path of GOD which is here the issue.

Quote

Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.


Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.


Quote

Hmm, lets start from beginning, ok?

19 is the miracle of the Quran, you assert. Correct?

If 19 is the miracle, why wasn't 19 mentioned as the 'even if' verses ? Why is there only mentioned the literal descent of a book on paper and the ascent of the person into heaven?

God's saying, EVEN IF he does this, they won't believe.

Why didn't he say EVEN IF he showed the most intricate 19 aspect, they wont believe? If 19 is the miracle of the Quran?

That's what im saying.



Khi- The miracle of code-19 was meant for our generation and it was kept hidden before, therefore the sura name 74 "the secret". This is so obvious. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 11:57:59 AM
Quote
Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed


Ok.

Quote
Khi- Now thats a good one. Your accepting one part of GOD's protection method and rejecting the other one logically required. Memorization can guard against loss but NOT against addition and the immediate exposure argument is silly similar to those of the sunnis. A group can be formed over years sneaking in verses. Once it becomes dominant in the world it can claim to the other "muslims" that they are the ones who posess the complete Quran and not the others. Also this argument of yours again involves mere "majority check" while the Quran itself says that the majority will mislead rfom the path of GOD which is here the issue.


Congratulations on UNDERSTANDING my thesis. I admire this about you, Khi, you take the trouble to read even if you are on the 'opposing camp'. You're one of the guys who makes staying on FM worth it. Cheers.

What you have hypothesised could happen, but hasn't. Proof? Al-quraan is totally consistent (4/82).


Quote
Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.


I've never called him and he doesn't know me. If you want, by all means please do so.


Quote
Khi- The miracle of code-19 was meant for our generation and it was kept hidden before, therefore the sura name 74 "the secret". This is so obvious. GOD Bless!


Sorry, i believe there's no change in the sunnatullah. I believe that those two examples were given due to the essence of man being constant. Man will have always have his earth and sky. Its an inescapable aspect of his being.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 26, 2005, 12:14:03 PM
Salam mquran,

Quote

Congratulations on UNDERSTANDING my thesis. I admire this about you, Khi, you take the trouble to read even if you are on the 'opposing camp'. You're one of the guys who makes staying on FM worth it. Cheers.

What you have hypothesised could happen, but hasn't. Proof? Al-quraan is totally consistent (4/82).


Khi- The fact that it didnt happen cannot  be a proof for the consistency of the Quran since theres a very high possibility of this to happen. This is just when i make a law that you mquran cannot leave freeminds forum and then you stay in this forum for lets say 30 yrs. This wont prove my thesis nor the consistency of my statement. Its only when you try to leave the forum and then my secret agents force you to stay that my law is proven. Similar is the case with the Quran. Somebody has to try to make additions and those need to be forced out in order for the Quran'ss thesis to be proven, get it?And this is exactly what hppened in 1974.

Quote

I've never called him and he doesn't know me. If you want, by all means please do so.


Khi- Ok though he seems very busy these days ill try GW.

Quote

Sorry, i believe there's no change in the sunnatullah. I believe that those two examples were given due to the essence of man being constant. Man will have always have his earth and sky. Its an inescapable aspect of his being.


Khi- What is this now your saying? How come sending a miracle is a change in the sunnatullah??? This IS THE SUNNATULLAH according to 2:106:
[2:106]  When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Fahad on November 26, 2005, 12:31:12 PM
Quote

I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?


Quote
Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed.


Quote
[2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?


salam.

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65351#65351




.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Fahad on November 26, 2005, 12:41:41 PM
Quote from: "idmkhizar"


Quote

Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.


Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.



salam.
have mercy bros . give Edip some rest . how many times has he debated on code-19 , and now you want more ?

debate on 'democracy' would be OK , but how many times will he debate on 19 ?
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 26, 2005, 12:53:35 PM
Salaamun alaikum,

Quote
Khi: The fact that it didnt happen cannot be a proof for the consistency of the Quran since theres a very high possibility of this to happen. This is just when i make a law that you mquran cannot leave freeminds forum and then you stay in this forum for lets say 30 yrs. This wont prove my thesis nor the consistency of my statement. Its only when you try to leave the forum and then my secret agents force you to stay that my law is proven. Similar is the case with the Quran. Somebody has to try to make additions and those need to be forced out in order for the Quran'ss thesis to be proven, get it?And this is exactly what hppened in 1974.


HUH? Since there's a high possibility of corruption, this cannot be proof ? What's that, dude? The 'high probability' is coming from you. All I know is:

Allah : if the Quran is from other than Allah, it'd have contradictions.

Fact : Al-quraan has no contradictions.

Therefore al-quraan must be from Allah.

If someone inserted anything into al-quraan, only part of al-quraan would be from Allah and therefore, it would have contradictions.


Quote
Khi- What is this now your saying? How come sending a miracle is a change in the sunnatullah??? This IS THE SUNNATULLAH according to 2:106:
[2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?


I'm saying those 2 verses in the thread above are the ULTIMATE things Allah does to prove the truth, but EVEN SO, people wont believe. The ultimate thing isnt 19, but those 2 experiences above.

As for 2/106, the word there isnt mujiza or miracle, its ayaat or SIGN. Further, these ayat werent given to prophets. Read 2/105, 'an yunazzila alaiKUM' , i.e. in plural. This is not talking about some miraculous event but rather our experiences of God's signs.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Ali Omar on November 26, 2005, 07:23:25 PM
Dear mquran,

Quote
Quote
Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??


Misleading question. The essential being of humankind is ummatan wahid, a single ummah however, since people seek things between themselves, its THEY who cause themselve to be divided (2/213). So you can either be in submission to God's system or not.


Then I take it you mean that God has not given us the quran in order to divide ourselves. That we ourselves are doing it despite the words of God?
Why is it then that we are calling each other ?muslims? and ?non-muslims?? I.e. dividing ourselves, and still claim to believe in the words of God which says NOT to do that?

Quote
Quote
The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.


This is your opinion. Evidence please.


Well, if this is not the case then the opposite must be true, the quran is there, first and foremost, to punish us and not to guide us. I do not hold that as very likely.


If you are a person who tries to live according to the words of God then you may be a ?muslim?. If you don?t, you may not be. But, again, this is not for us to decide.
Whatever pledge you give is not worth anything, unless you follow it up with actions. To claim to be a ?muslim? doesn?t make you a ?muslim?. To claim to be a cook doesn?t make you a cook.
Nobody can enter an ?islamic domain? through a pledge, only through the way of life and our actions. Way of life and actions according to the words of God is the ?islamic domain?.

You can not ?sign on? as a citizen of islam and due to this be required to abide by the laws of islam. It is the other way around. It is only through abiding by the laws of islam that you may become a ?member? of that community.

If the quran is not ?a guide to an optimal form of democracy (?rule? by the people)? then what is it?
When it is informing us of how to behave, live and function, is it not guiding us to the best way of life? Is it not giving us clues as to how to ?rule? ourselves within the framework of the system of God?

It is not difficult to understand the text in the quran saying ?an eye for an eye?. If we follow this to the letter does it mean that if somebody makes another person blind, he/she must also be blinded?
Does this make sense? Is this the best solution for everybody? Or is the one who has been wronged, and the humanity at large, better off by finding another solution to the situation at hand?

When we translate ?laa yuminoon? into meaning ?they do not believe?, we must try to find out what this ?believe?-thing is. It does not take too much research to find out that it means a kind of belief based on a certain degree of knowledge. I.e. they actually do not have knowledge enough to ?believe? with certainty.
The acquisition of knowledge is made inaccessible to them.

Yes, the quran is obligatory on us, but if we take every word in the quran literally we have not understood the message from God. It says that we have to study all of it and find what is ?best?.
Now, ?best? for whom, for God, or for one particular individual, or for the human community?

Regards

Ali Omar
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Ali Omar on November 26, 2005, 08:07:43 PM
Dear peacefulmuslim,

My views concerning being a ?muslim?, in short:
You can not ?sign on? as a citizen of islam and due to this be required to abide by the laws of islam. It is the other way around. It is only through abiding by the laws of islam that you may become a ?member? of that ?community?.

Concerning democracy vs. islam, I see islam as a way by which we may obtain a near-to-perfect balanced system to govern ourselves.
It promotes a ?rule by the people? within a framework set by the words, and other signs, of God.
It does mention a leader for the community, i.e. as opposed to total anarchy, but in a way where the leader is supposed to seek advice from the members of the community.
Meaning the leader is not to be a dictator. In other words, some sort of democracy.

Regards

Ali Omar
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: mquran on November 27, 2005, 03:06:27 AM
Quote
Then I take it you mean that God has not given us the quran in order to divide ourselves. That we ourselves are doing it despite the words of God?


Allah gave us al-quraan as a guidance to achieve what He set out for us. We divided ourselves because humanity overwhelmingly seek other than what Allah has ordained.

Quote
Why is it then that we are calling each other “muslims” and “non-muslims”? I.e. dividing ourselves, and still claim to believe in the words of God which says NOT to do that?


If people have transgressed certain behavioural patterns, they are put in certain categories. This is why, at the very end of the spectrum, when they are completely out of servitude to Allah (wa maa antum aabiduna maa a'bud - 106/5) , we address them as 'yaa ayyuhal kafiroon' (106/1).


Quote
Well, if this is not the case then the opposite must be true, the quran is there, first and foremost, to punish us and not to guide us. I do not hold that as very likely.


Well, I hold thier neither thesis nor antithesis to be true because in my reading, Al-quraan is silent on it. This is why I asked for evidence.


Quote
If you are a person who tries to live according to the words of God then you may be a “muslim”. If you don’t, you may not be. But, again, this is not for us to decide.


Oh but we HAVE to decide because being a 'muslim' necessitates certain strategies of interactions from ourselves. Lets say person 'a' is a criminal and says 'in my heart, i submit'. You let him into your house and he kills you. Not a very smart move, was it?

Quote
Whatever pledge you give is not worth anything, unless you follow it up with actions. To claim to be a “muslim” doesn’t make you a “muslim”. To claim to be a cook doesn’t make you a cook.
Nobody can enter an “islamic domain” through a pledge, only through the way of life and our actions. Way of life and actions according to the words of God is the “islamic domain”.


Correct. And the evidence for this is 9/11 which says 'if they return, establish as-salat and render az-zakaat, SO THEY ARE YOUR BROTHERS IN AD-DEEN'. Therefore, any person who transgresses this, should be chucked out of the domain after any adequate warning.

Quote
You can not “sign on” as a citizen of islam and due to this be required to abide by the laws of islam. It is the other way around. It is only through abiding by the laws of islam that you may become a “member” of that community.


Thanks for telling me. There's the ayat above to prove it again.

Quote
If the quran is not “a guide to an optimal form of democracy (“rule” by the people)” then what is it?
When it is informing us of how to behave, live and function, is it not guiding us to the best way of life? Is it not giving us clues as to how to “rule” ourselves within the framework of the system of God?


It also postulates that:
1. most of humankind wont believe (12/103)
2. those who DO believe mostly do it with shirik (12/106)
3. most of humankind follow conjecture (10/36)
4. most of humankind mislead from the path of Allah (6/116)

I give these statements the reverence deserved of an eternal truth. Therefore, in an ideal situation, im not about to trust an electorate. I'd rather trust an inspired rasool.
 

Quote
It is not difficult to understand the text in the quran saying “an eye for an eye”. If we follow this to the letter does it mean that if somebody makes another person blind, he/she must also be blinded?


It depends on the intention of the defendant which the judge decides and then if guilty, on the generosity of the victim's family.

Quote
Does this make sense? Is this the best solution for everybody? Or is the one who has been wronged, and the humanity at large, better off by finding another solution to the situation at hand?


I say it is the best solution and I further assert that your resistance to it is due to incorrect notions of justice.

Quote
When we translate “laa yuminoon” into meaning “they do not believe”, we must try to find out what this “believe”-thing is. It does not take too much research to find out that it means a kind of belief based on a certain degree of knowledge. I.e. they actually do not have knowledge enough to “believe” with certainty.
The acquisition of knowledge is made inaccessible to them.


Or made accessible but they still refuse. Thats a possibility too.

Quote
Yes, the quran is obligatory on us, but if we take every word in the quran literally we have not understood the message from God. It says that we have to study all of it and find what is “best”.
Now, “best” for whom, for God, or for one particular individual, or for the human community?


Ahsnahu for 'the better of it' doesn't mean what is 'best' but better. When al-quraan is read out, we are to choose the ayaat which better suits our situation. This isn't talking about the literal/figurative dichotomy. If the equivalency laws were figurative, then it would not mention expiation or compensation.

Regards
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 27, 2005, 07:10:43 AM
Salam mquran,

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HUH? Since there's a high possibility of corruption, this cannot be proof ? What's that, dude? The 'high probability' is coming from you.


Khi- I already explained to you that a law cannot be proven to exist unless someone tries to break it and gav you an exdample.

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 All I know is:

Allah : if the Quran is from other than Allah, it'd have contradictions.

Fact : Al-quraan has no contradictions.

Therefore al-quraan must be from Allah.

If someone inserted anything into al-quraan, only part of al-quraan would be from Allah and therefore, it would have contradictions.


Khi- This is certainly ONE OF the tests. But not all additions to Quran would necessary have a contradiction to the other verses. Somebody  may add "xyz is a messenger of GOD sent to the present times and he believes firmly in what was sent down to him in this quran..." and it wont be a contradiction YET not part of the Quran either. I hope you get my point.


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I'm saying those 2 verses in the thread above are the ULTIMATE things Allah does to prove the truth, but EVEN SO, people wont believe. The ultimate thing isnt 19, but those 2 experiences above.

As for 2/106, the word there isnt mujiza or miracle, its ayaat or SIGN. Further, these ayat werent given to prophets. Read 2/105, 'an yunazzila alaiKUM' , i.e. in plural. This is not talking about some miraculous event but rather our experiences of God's signs.


Khi- If you know Arabic well youd know that ayat can mean BOTH "sign" and "miracle". I took Arabic classes where native Egyptians taught and he clearly explained one meaning of "ayat" to be "miracle". Btw GOD always uses the word AYAT in the Quran in reference to Moses mirales like stick turning to snake and the hand turning white. I dont find the word "mujizah" in the Quran at all. GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Jaxal on November 27, 2005, 09:04:38 AM
SaLaM idmkhizar

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Khi- I already explained to you that a law cannot be proven to exist unless someone tries to break it and gav you an exdample.


Im sorry brother but that is not true.
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: jonny_k on November 27, 2005, 10:52:40 AM
Salam Jaxal,

Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

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Khi- I already explained to you that a law cannot be proven to exist unless someone tries to break it and gav you an exdample.


Im sorry brother but that is not true.


Khi- That is not true???! I gave you an example. If i make a law that someone cannot leave a room and that person stays in that room forever NOBODY WILL EVER KNOW THAT SUCH A LAW, WHICH I CLAIMED TO HAVE MADE, EXISTED OR WAS TRUE. It is ONLY WHEN THAT PERSON IS FORCED BACK IN WHILE TRYING TO LEAVE that my law or rule, which i made, is proven. Dont you see this simple fact? GOD Bless!
Title: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: Ali Omar on November 27, 2005, 07:54:06 PM
Dear mquran,

From what you have written, it seems that we agree that the quran is here to guide us.
The quran is not silent on this issue.
As you know, there are numerous verses in the quran mentioning balance, justice, guidance, forgiveness etc. It therefore seems that God is not so taken with punishment in our lifetime, as with guidance to maintain a balanced ?ummat?. How should we act to obtain that goal?

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This is why, at the very end of the spectrum, when they are completely out of servitude to Allah (wa maa antum aabiduna maa a'bud - 106/5) , we address them as 'yaa ayyuhal kafiroon' (106/1).


Please check these references again.

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If you are a person who tries to live according to the words of God then you may be a ?muslim?. If you don?t, you may not be. But, again, this is not for us to decide.



Oh but we HAVE to decide because being a 'muslim' necessitates certain strategies of interactions from ourselves. Lets say person 'a' is a criminal and says 'in my heart, i submit'. You let him into your house and he kills you. Not a very smart move, was it?


God tells us to use the signs of God, including the quran to guide ourselves in life. God tells us to use our senses and our minds and not blindly follow what others say. Whether a person saying ?in my heart I submit? is a ?criminal? or not, is only visible through his/her actions through life. ?Words are cheap?.
We can not decide whether a person is ?muslim? in ?the eyes? of God.

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Correct. And the evidence for this is 9/11 which says 'if they return, establish as-salat and render az-zakaat, SO THEY ARE YOUR BROTHERS IN AD-DEEN'. Therefore, any person who transgresses this, should be chucked out of the domain after any adequate warning.


Again, it is not for us to ?chuck? anybody out of ?the domain?. A person opposing the words of God is not ?in the domain?, it is not something that we decide, it is a result of the person?s actions.

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I give these statements the reverence deserved of an eternal truth. Therefore, in an ideal situation, im not about to trust an electorate. I'd rather trust an inspired rasool.


Is your ?trusted rasool? the same as somebody else?s ?trusted rasool?? Or rather, who decides who is trusted and who is not?
You should not trust an electorate because the person is elected; trust has to be earned through actions. Again it is what you do and not what you say that counts.

Do you believe that ?justice is served? if someone who kills another human being is killed as well?
Let us say that a person who is murdered has a family that he/she took care of. Will the family be better off if the perpetrator is killed? Will it make any difference to the one who was murdered?
The perpetrator may also have responsibility towards his/her own family, is his/her family to be punished for the one person?s criminal action?

In short, is balance restored, and justice served, if two families lose their breadwinner due to one person?s actions?
Maybe you could say that balance is restored as both families? means of support would be equally reduced.
Who is then going to sustain these families? lives? Is the community better off by this kind of ?justice?, or is this solution only a question of satisfying an urge for revenge?
In that case, is revenge what God is telling us to seek?
Doesn't this remind you more of a "Cosa Nostra" way of dealing with problems?

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Ahsnahu for 'the better of it' doesn't mean what is 'best' but better. When al-quraan is read out, we are to choose the ayaat which better suits our situation. This isn't talking about the literal/figurative dichotomy. If the equivalency laws were figurative, then it would not mention expiation or compensation.


The ?better? of two options is also the ?best? of these options. And you are right; it has to be weighed in accordance with the present situation.

Regards

Ali Omar
Title: Re: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: good logic on July 18, 2019, 02:51:44 AM
All we can teach is "how to access language of Qoran". May be also teach languages. But as for Qoran teaching, it is done by the Author:
Al Rahman Allama Qoran".
Yes indeed GOD Alone is the teacher of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: huruf on July 18, 2019, 05:22:47 AM
God teaches, yes, by all means, I mean that God may teach us through others, through events, through suffering, through joy, throug literature...
Particularly, I think, through our unconscious needs and through our conscious effort.

I is as if all things that exist were water and all we are were thirst.

Salaam
Title: Re: Is Quran anti- secular?
Post by: good logic on July 18, 2019, 05:50:44 AM
I mean we can also teach "men s books" like hadiths and Science and....Ya it is fine to teach your fellow humans . Definitely recommended.
Of course I am all for teaching any knowledge.
As for salvation/redemption , each to seek their own .Nobody can teach it really.
GOD bless.
Peace.