Free Minds

Peace to All,

My views could sound to you as HERETIC.....thus BEWARE before you read this.

I am a student of Science as many other Monotheists could be in this forum. I see many a times people, even monotheists making weird arguments to prove that Quran is a Scientific Book.

I have Absolutely No Problem if people describe Quran as a scientific book with respect to Embryology, Biology, Evolutionary Biology, Origin of Life or such sciences.

But when it comes to Physics or Astronomy, it is a full MESS..... :brickwall:

"Quran shows evidence for a Big Bang"    :rotfl:

"Quran shows the Sun Moves in Orbit."     :rotfl:

I can easily see that these claims are a deliberate attempt to make Quran a Book compatible with Science. The Atheists make joke that the verses clearly refering to the Sun as a moving body is being distorted.

If I write a Poem and there is a verse in that

the Creator of the is Him
Due to his due
The Sun and the moon in their orbits swim

Will u say that this "poem" is unscientific....NO!!!!!

Do u ever see whether Shakespeare's Plays, or Alexandre Dumas Novels are in resonance with Cosmology.....then why Quran??? :brickwall:

The verse that "Sun swims in Orbit" is a rhetoric device, it has nothing to do with describing the astronomical aspects.[/size]

Mind u.....I am not sayin that Quran is an UNSCIENTIFIC Book!!!!!!

The evidences of Biology, Evolution, Embryology, Code 19 are ENOUGH to PROVE that QURAN is a Divine Book. It is a Guidance, Not a Science Book.

So please stop making fake arguments to prove quran shows exact info about Astronomy etc......

If anyone has problems with my views, please send me a PM so we can discuss that.....

Peace
Harun.

Quote from: Harun on January 25, 2013, 09:34:11 AM
Peace to All,

My views could sound to you as HERETIC.....thus BEWARE before you read this.

I am a student of Science as many other Monotheists could be in this forum. I see many a times people, even monotheists making weird arguments to prove that Quran is a Scientific Book.

I have Absolutely No Problem if people describe Quran as a scientific book with respect to Embryology, Biology, Evolutionary Biology, Origin of Life or such sciences.

But when it comes to Physics or Astronomy, it is a full MESS..... :brickwall:

"Quran shows evidence for a Big Bang"    :rotfl:

"Quran shows the Sun Moves in Orbit."     :rotfl:

I can easily see that these claims are a deliberate attempt to make Quran a Book compatible with Science. The Atheists make joke that the verses clearly refering to the Sun as a moving body is being distorted.

If I write a Poem and there is a verse in that

the Creator of the is Him
Due to his due
The Sun and the moon in their orbits swim

Will u say that this "poem" is unscientific....NO!!!!!

Do u ever see whether Shakespeare's Plays, or Alexandre Dumas Novels are in resonance with Cosmology.....then why Quran??? :brickwall:

The verse that "Sun swims in Orbit" is a rhetoric device, it has nothing to do with describing the astronomical aspects.[/size]

Mind u.....I am not sayin that Quran is an UNSCIENTIFIC Book!!!!!!

The evidences of Biology, Evolution, Embryology, Code 19 are ENOUGH to PROVE that QURAN is a Divine Book. It is a Guidance, Not a Science Book.

So please stop making fake arguments to prove quran shows exact info about Astronomy etc......

If anyone has problems with my views, please send me a PM so we can discuss that.....

Peace
Harun.

Read explanation

THE SUN ALSO MOVES ALONG

It was even later, thanks to sophisticated telescopes and the accumulation of cosmological data, that it was concluded that the sun was moving as well and the earth revolved about the sun in motion. Despite the fact that it took science this long, this motion of the sun had already been told 1400 years ago in the Quran. Contrary to the assertion that the sun traced a vicious circle about the earth or that it was stationary, the 38th verse of the sura Ya-Seen stated correctly that it moved on to its destination. As in other subjects, in this one also the Quran is the source that gave a correct account of the sun?s motion.
Read More http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-sun-also-moves-along/

Why?
Why should the Koran be correct about scientific topics?
There is nothing scientifically accurate or of scientific interest in the Koran. Even though people in Greece and Egypt discovered some 2000 years ago that Earth is a sphere and rotates around the sun this was not commonly accepted for some time.
I know that in the 70s some dishonest people tried to fool everyone by using a Canadian anatomist and a French doctor to believe there was some scientific facts on embryology buried somewhere in the book, but this was quickly shown to be false, especially since nowadays we have the internet available to show the information that was previously only available to scholars and specialists.

A great example illustrating this and showing the dangers of such an endeavour at the same time is the so-called "scientific miracle" of the expanding Universe.
Some people changed the meaning of musioona in 51:47 from the descriptor "vast" to the verb "expand" and it then said "We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who are steadily expanding it".
Then along came Nobel laureates Saul Perlmutter, Adam Riess and Brian Schmidt in 1998 and expanded the Big Bang model by introducing the accelerating expansion and the word "steadily" had to be removed again. Yet even today, some sites still carry the old attempt at reading science into the Koran and making themselves look a bit foolish.

http://learn-about-islam.com/2011/10/31/science-reason-compatible/

(http://learn-about-islam.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/history_science.jpg)

Quote from: Wakas on January 25, 2013, 04:56:37 PM
http://learn-about-islam.com/2011/10/31/science-reason-compatible/

http://learn-about-islam.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/history_science.jpg

Prove it. Take 4 dead birds and then do as commanded:

?Take, then, four birds and teach them to obey thee; then place them separately on every hill [around thee]; then summon them: they will come flying to thee. And know that God is Almighty, Wise."

I thought this type of thing was well known, e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falconry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_pigeon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homing_pigeon

Salam

I read your post interested and i must first note that I felt always impressed of Maurice Bucaille and others who make the Koran 'scientifically compatible'.
This  may be because I'm not a scientist and  I had earlier to rely on translations only - Now I know and I see that many things have been reinterpreted to suit any image.
The Quran is a literary masterpiece, and in many ways it needs imagination, since things are described in beautiful examples.
It can be everyting  interpreted into the Quran -  salat = prayer or not , just to name one example.
I once read a translation about the famous verse in  Sura al Nur, one he explains it as evidence for the laser.

I do not think that the Quran needs to be scientifically. Science is empirical, and the knowledge is constantly changing, the Qur'an is a spiritual book, a guidance for the soul, not a textbook/schoolbook. Not in vain, God says that he given all peoples eyes and ears, and a spirit- everyone has intelligence, but the differences are huge, so it is likely that already from this point of view is not correct, that the Qur'an should be scientifically. It is a guidance for all of humanity, not only for scholars.
Sorry for the english. hope understandable.peace

Quote from: Wakas on January 26, 2013, 05:46:30 AM
I thought this type of thing was well known, e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falconry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_pigeon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homing_pigeon

I can't find anything there on resurrected or dead birds. Can you help me find that?

Quote from: mirjamnur on January 26, 2013, 09:06:40 AM
Salam

I read your post interested and i must first note that I felt always impressed of Maurice Bucaille and others who make the Koran 'scientifically compatible'.

This  may be because I'm not a scientist and  I had earlier to rely on translations only - Now I know and I see that many things have been reinterpreted to suit any image.
The Quran is a literary masterpiece, and in many ways it needs imagination, since things are described in beautiful examples.
It can be everyting  interpreted into the Quran -  salat = prayer or not , just to name one example.
I once read a translation about the famous verse in  Sura al Nur, one he explains it as evidence for the laser.

I do not think that the Quran needs to be scientifically. Science is empirical, and the knowledge is constantly changing, the Qur'an is a spiritual book, a guidance for the soul, not a textbook/schoolbook. Not in vain, God says that he given all peoples eyes and ears, and a spirit- everyone has intelligence, but the differences are huge, so it is likely that already from this point of view is not correct, that the Qur'an should be scientifically. It is a guidance for all of humanity, not only for scholars.
Sorry for the english. hope understandable.peace

Thank you and I agree with you completely and don't worry about your English, it is easily understandable.

Quote from: StopS on January 26, 2013, 10:03:09 AM
I can't find anything there on resurrected or dead birds. Can you help me find that?

The verse you quoted was:

And Abraham said: ??My Lord, show me HOW (i.e. the method) you resurrect the dead.? He said, ?Do you not already acknowledge?? He said, ?I do, but to assure my heart. Said He: ?Take, then, four birds and teach them to obey thee; then place them separately on every hill [around thee]; then summon them: they will come flying to thee. And know that God is Almighty, Wise. [2:260]


No dead birds in there. I think you must be confused, and consider the above verses referring to dead birds and cutting them up etc. That is found in some translations, but unfortunately for them, they fail once the verse is analysed, see here:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0

Quite simply, the birds return to their master when called, just like we will when called by our master. That is how.

Quote from: FearGod on January 25, 2013, 10:58:27 AM
Read explanation

THE SUN ALSO MOVES ALONG

It was even later, thanks to sophisticated telescopes and the accumulation of cosmological data, that it was concluded that the sun was moving as well and the earth revolved about the sun in motion. Despite the fact that it took science this long, this motion of the sun had already been told 1400 years ago in the Quran. Contrary to the assertion that the sun traced a vicious circle about the earth or that it was stationary, the 38th verse of the sura Ya-Seen stated correctly that it moved on to its destination. As in other subjects, in this one also the Quran is the source that gave a correct account of the sun?s motion.
Read More http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-sun-also-moves-along/

Peace Bro FearGod,

The Sun DOES Move along......

But it is extremely clear that the Swimmimg of Sun described in the Quran is the Swimmimg as appearing to us...the swimmimg that converts night into day and vice versa......

I am sure that Muhammad and People of that time did THOUGHT of this meaning only...

Hope things are clear....

With Peace
Harun

Quote from: Harun on January 27, 2013, 06:16:57 AM
The Sun DOES Move along......

But it is extremely clear that the Swimmimg of Sun described in the Quran is the Swimmimg as appearing to us...the swimmimg that converts night into day and vice versa......

My explanation is based on that people used to think that the architecture wasL heavens, water, firmament, earth, water. I'm sure you've seen examples of this picture. http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/gier/306/commoncosmos.htm (http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/gier/306/commoncosmos.htm)

So they thought that at night the sun is underneath Earth and needs to swim through the water underneath Earth and then rise again on the other side. Hence the word swim.
You also find this in the sunnah, where the sun swims underneath Allah's throne, sitting just above the waters.

Quote from: Harun on January 27, 2013, 06:16:57 AM
Peace Bro FearGod,

The Sun DOES Move along......

But it is extremely clear that the Swimmimg of Sun described in the Quran is the Swimmimg as appearing to us...the swimmimg that converts night into day and vice versa......

I am sure that Muhammad and People of that time did THOUGHT of this meaning only...

Hope things are clear....

With Peace
Harun

Brother Harun,

i think it should be did think and not THOUGHT, anyway

May i ask you how did you know that the quran meant to say the sun revolves around the earth.

My other question is, are you a muslim ?

Peace Fear God,

Yeah it should be "did think"....by the way

QuoteMay i ask you how did you know that the quran meant to say the sun revolves around the earth.

This is the problem Bro. I DO NOT THINK OR SAY THAT QURAN SAYS THAT THE SUN REVOLVES AROUND THE EARTH.......almost all of them misunderstand.....

Brother, Quran is not an encyclopedia. If it is said that the Sun swims, it indeed appears to us as swimming in the sky (frame of reference), it indeed refers to the glory of the phenomenon (here the rotation of earth) that makes Sun constantly swim in the Orbit and cause day and night.

So, SUN SWIMS is a RHETORIC.....i hope u know what it means.....it enhances literary beauty...has nothing to do with actual state of the sun.....the moon also Swims....

It appears to us as Swimming..........thats why it Swims......

Secondly, I am a Rational Monotheist. I am surely a "muslim", maybe there is less probability of me being a "Muslim". It also depends on how u define that word.

With greetings of Peace and Love,
Harun.

P.S. Wheren do u live bro?

Quote from: StopS on January 25, 2013, 01:41:11 PM
Why?
Why should the Koran be correct about scientific topics?
There is nothing scientifically accurate or of scientific interest in the Koran. Even though people in Greece and Egypt discovered some 2000 years ago that Earth is a sphere and rotates around the sun this was not commonly accepted for some time.
I know that in the 70s some dishonest people tried to fool everyone by using a Canadian anatomist and a French doctor to believe there was some scientific facts on embryology buried somewhere in the book, but this was quickly shown to be false, especially since nowadays we have the internet available to show the information that was previously only available to scholars and specialists.

A great example illustrating this and showing the dangers of such an endeavour at the same time is the so-called "scientific miracle" of the expanding Universe.
Some people changed the meaning of musioona in 51:47 from the descriptor "vast" to the verb "expand" and it then said "We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who are steadily expanding it".
Then along came Nobel laureates Saul Perlmutter, Adam Riess and Brian Schmidt in 1998 and expanded the Big Bang model by introducing the accelerating expansion and the word "steadily" had to be removed again. Yet even today, some sites still carry the old attempt at reading science into the Koran and making themselves look a bit foolish.

You are saying that it was known before 2000 years ago and even back to the greece era that the earth was sphere and that earth revolves around the sun.

My question to you is.

Why such information wasn't mentioned in the bible about a sphere earth revolving around the sun ?


You aren't telling the truth regarding the verse (51:47) or you should first study arabic in college before making your conclusion.

Many copies of the quran have been translated in wrong way one time by a mistake and the other time to fool people about the beauty
of the quran by distorting it's wonderful meaning exactly as you are trying to do now.

But here is the evidence by using the internet to find the exact meaning of the expanding universe as shown in arabic / english dictionaries.

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَ مُوسِعُ ونَ
AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (51:47)

Reference : http://www.wordreference.com/enar/expanded
(http://pictat.com/i/2013/1/31/11433expand.png)

(http://pictat.com/i/2013/1/31/19021htmltoimag.png)

Quote from: Harun on January 31, 2013, 05:48:23 AM
Peace Fear God,

Yeah it should be "did think"....by the way

This is the problem Bro. I DO NOT THINK OR SAY THAT QURAN SAYS THAT THE SUN REVOLVES AROUND THE EARTH.......almost all of them misunderstand.....

Brother, Quran is not an encyclopedia. If it is said that the Sun swims, it indeed appears to us as swimming in the sky (frame of reference), it indeed refers to the glory of the phenomenon (here the rotation of earth) that makes Sun constantly swim in the Orbit and cause day and night.

So, SUN SWIMS is a RHETORIC.....i hope u know what it means.....it enhances literary beauty...has nothing to do with actual state of the sun.....the moon also Swims....

It appears to us as Swimming..........thats why it Swims......

Secondly, I am a Rational Monotheist. I am surely a "muslim", maybe there is less probability of me being a "Muslim". It also depends on how u define that word.

With greetings of Peace and Love,
Harun.

P.S. Wheren do u live bro?

Thanks Brother for your reply.

i live in Jordan.

Please read my thread about the verses showing how god caused the night and day to rotate around our earth.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604790.0

Quote from: FearGod on January 31, 2013, 06:37:44 AM
You are saying that it was known before 2000 years ago and even back to the greece era that the earth was sphere and that earth revolves around the sun.

My question to you is.

Why such information wasn't mentioned in the bible about a sphere earth revolving around the sun ?

1. the Bibles are not scientific encyclopaediae
2. it was not common knowledge
3. it was not accepted and did not fit into their worldview where Earth was required to be the centre and mankind the highest in creation

What would it change if the Bible did mention it? Nothing. What does the contents of the Bible have to do with the contents of the Koran?

Quote
You aren't telling the truth regarding the verse (51:47) or you should first study arabic in college before making your conclusion.

Here the Bible DOES say in Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out..."

Well, let's just say I am telling the truth as far as most Arabic speakers and professional translators go. The way I understand it, musioon is a word describing a state, not an action word or verb! A garden can be "musioon", vast or extensive, but that does not mean it expands.

What is strange is that to my knowledge it was translated as "vast" until someone discovered that the Universe was expanding and when Bucailleism spread, the meaning was changed. As I showed, it was wrong because they didn't know that the expansion of the Universe was accelerating, so the "steadily" is factually wrong and has thus been removed in some versions.

M. M. Pickthall   We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir   We are the makers of things ample.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)   it is We Who create the vastness of space.
Wahiduddin Khan   We built the universe with Our might, giving it its vast expanse.
Abdel Haleem   We built the heavens with Our power and made them vast,
Abdul Majid Daryabadi   And the heaven! We have built it with might, and verily We are powerful.
Ahmed Ali   We built the heavens by Our authority; and We are the Lord of power and expanse.
Aisha Bewley   As for heaven ? We built it with great power and gave it its vast expanse.
Amatul Rahman Omar   As for the heaven, We have built it with (Our) Mighty power, and verily We are Makers of the vast extent.
Hamid S. Aziz   it is We that expand the vastness of space
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali   We are indeed extending (it) wide.
Syed Vickar Ahamed   We are Who create the vastness of space with it.
Farook Malik   We have built the heavens with Our hands, for We have the power to do so.
Dr. Kamal Omar   We are indeed those Who make expansion and create vastness.
Bilal Muhammad   We construct the firmament, for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
Maududi   And heaven ? We made it with Our Own Power and We have the Power to do so.

So, yes, it is theoretically possible that all these professional translators, who studied classic Arabic, were wrong and a French doctor, a Christian who did not speak Arabic, was right.

Let me show you what an Arabic speaking Muslim says about this:

Quote"Wassamaa banaynahabi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoon"

Sahih International   "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander."
Muhsin Khan   "With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof."
Pickthall   "We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)."
Yusuf Ali   "With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace."
Shakir   "And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample."
Dr. Ghali   "And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide."

The word in question here is 'moosiAAoon', which means 'the ones who make things vast/expand' (it is a noun, not a verb). The verse does not specify that the universe is still expanding, only that Allah is the one who makes things vast/expand, including the 'heavens'. Only recently have some people such as Dr. Ghali translated 'moosiAAoon' as a verb in the present tense, meaning 'extending/expanding it'. This is incorrect, as can be seen by someone with knowledge of Arabic grammar, and as evidenced by the fact that this is a departure from the majority of previous translations.

Now, even if we suspend our disbelief, ignore all other translations, and assume that Dr. Ghali is correct, what is so miraculous about such a vague description? What 'heaven' is the Quran referring to? The word used is 'samaa', which also means 'sky'. What does 'god' mean when he speaks of how he 'built' the sky? Also, what is so grand about such a description? Anyone could look up at the sky and come to the conclusion, for whatever reason, that the 'heavens' are expanding. Add a few details and maybe then you have something worth bragging about.

Do you not see how all these 'miracles' are just vague descriptions, and are often simply invented by people who deliberately mistranslate the Quran to insert their own 'miracles' into the text? Now if God wanted to include clear scientific miracles, why didn't he include something concrete and completely unknowable at the time? Why didn't he say something like:

'verily we have created all things with energy equal to it's mass multiplied by the speed of light multiplied unto itself; and God is the creator of all things'

There, completely clear and not in the least bit vague; and had it been in the Quran, not one person would be able to refute the fact that this is completely correct and completely unknowable at the time.

Now please tell me what is the truth? Is only your version the truth?

You are showing me once again that I am right in demanding not to mix science and religion. It leads to futile discussions and simply does not work!

Quote from: StopS on January 31, 2013, 03:35:43 PM
1. the Bibles are not scientific encyclopaediae
2. it was not common knowledge
3. it was not accepted and did not fit into their worldview where Earth was required to be the centre and mankind the highest in creation

What would it change if the Bible did mention it? Nothing. What does the contents of the Bible have to do with the contents of the Koran?

Here the Bible DOES say in Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out..."

You have changed our subject where you have said about the sphere earth and its revolution around the sun which you claimed it to be known since the time of pharaoh and greece era and now you shifted the subject to the expanding universe to show it mentioned in the bible whereas we were discussing earth ,day and night

I SAID,

QuoteYou are saying that it was known before 2000 years ago and even back to the greece era that the earth was sphere and that earth revolves around the sun.

My question to you is.

Why such information wasn't mentioned in the bible about a sphere earth revolving around the sun ?

You are only eluding and even not smart on it but only showing your hypocrisy and dishonesty on debating this thread.

Quote from: StopS on January 31, 2013, 03:35:43 PMWell, let's just say I am telling the truth as far as most Arabic speakers and professional translators go. The way I understand it, musioon is a word describing a state, not an action word or verb! A garden can be "musioon", vast or extensive, but that does not mean it expands.

The garden can't be musioon except if the one saying it a baby child or a lunatic boy
حديقة موسعون  :rotfl:

the correct one is حديقة واسعة

Quote from: StopS on January 31, 2013, 03:35:43 PMWhat is strange is that to my knowledge it was translated as "vast" until someone discovered that the Universe was expanding and when Bucailleism spread, the meaning was changed. As I showed, it was wrong because they didn't know that the expansion of the Universe was accelerating, so the "steadily" is factually wrong and has thus been removed in some versions.

M. M. Pickthall   We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir   We are the makers of things ample.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)   it is We Who create the vastness of space.
Wahiduddin Khan   We built the universe with Our might, giving it its vast expanse.
Abdel Haleem   We built the heavens with Our power and made them vast,
Abdul Majid Daryabadi   And the heaven! We have built it with might, and verily We are powerful.
Ahmed Ali   We built the heavens by Our authority; and We are the Lord of power and expanse.
Aisha Bewley   As for heaven ? We built it with great power and gave it its vast expanse.
Amatul Rahman Omar   As for the heaven, We have built it with (Our) Mighty power, and verily We are Makers of the vast extent.
Hamid S. Aziz   it is We that expand the vastness of space
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali   We are indeed extending (it) wide.
Syed Vickar Ahamed   We are Who create the vastness of space with it.
Farook Malik   We have built the heavens with Our hands, for We have the power to do so.
Dr. Kamal Omar   We are indeed those Who make expansion and create vastness.
Bilal Muhammad   We construct the firmament, for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
Maududi   And heaven ? We made it with Our Own Power and We have the Power to do so.

So, yes, it is theoretically possible that all these professional translators, who studied classic Arabic, were wrong and a French doctor, a Christian who did not speak Arabic, was right.

Let me show you what an Arabic speaking Muslim says about this:

Now please tell me what is the truth? Is only your version the truth?

You are showing me once again that I am right in demanding not to mix science and religion. It leads to futile discussions and simply does not work!

What you did here, copy...paste ,,,, copy...paste ,,, copy...paste.

But i am sorry to say that you unserstand nothing because you have no knowledge in the complexity of the Arabic language which i have spent more than 12 years studying it in school and still not perfect on its grammers even though it is my native language.

So you are discussing something which you don't know and refuting without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

The word موسع is different than لموسع and different than لموسعون
we have also واسع , واسعة , واسعون , متسع , يتسع , يسع , وسع , اوسعنا , ليسع , تتسع

i don't know if there is still else words for the arabic grammer which you know nothing about it.

How you refute something which you actually have no knowledge on it,if you have even a litlle knowledge then
i can help you to understand,but you have nill.

How can you discuss something in english if i don't know one english word.

that complexity of language in the quran had challenged the experts in the Arabic language at that
era and then you are saying musioon .

Quote from: FearGod on February 01, 2013, 04:55:13 AM
You have changed our subject where you have said about the sphere earth and its revolution around the sun which you claimed it to be known since the time of pharaoh and greece era and now you shifted the subject to the expanding universe to show it mentioned in the bible whereas we were discussing earth ,day and night

It would be so easy if you would first check and then make accusations! I hate all this "I said" "you said" nonsense, but if you insist....

The topic of this thread is: "Is Quran Really Compatible with Science????"
In reply #2 I pointed out that "Earth is a sphere and rotates around the sun" was known long before Islam started, if we can agree that it started in the 7th century CE.

You say I have changed "your" subject. Based on what?

In my reply I show how pseudo-science is introduced and how this was done.

In reply #14 you first ask me why "the bible" doesn't mention this and accuse me of lying about the translation of a sentence.

In reply #16 I give you the reasons why I think the Bibles did not mention this and demonstrate that your translation of 51:47 can be just as wrong/off/misunderstood as the one I have taken from reputable translators.

In the same reply I also showed you why I believe the claim in the example I provided was indeed dishonest, misleading and wrong. I also demonstrated that the Jewish Bible uses the same idea.

So, pray tell, how exactly am I changing what topic from what to what?

Quote
I SAID,

You are only eluding and even not smart on it but only showing your hypocrisy and dishonesty on debating this thread.

The garden can't be musioon except if the one saying it a baby child or a lunatic boy
حديقة موسعون  :rotfl:

the correct one is حديقة واسعة

What you did here, copy...paste ,,,, copy...paste ,,, copy...paste.

But i am sorry to say that you unserstand nothing because you have no knowledge in the complexity of the Arabic language which i have spent more than 12 years studying it in school and still not perfect on its grammers even though it is my native language.

So you are discussing something which you don't know and refuting without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

The word موسع is different than لموسع and different than لموسعون
we have also واسع , واسعة , واسعون , متسع , يتسع , يسع , وسع , اوسعنا , ليسع , تتسع

i don't know if there is still else words for the arabic grammer which you know nothing about it.

How you refute something which you actually have no knowledge on it,if you have even a litlle knowledge then i can help you to understand,but you have nill.

How can you discuss something in english if i don't know one english word.

that complexity of language in the quran had challenged the experts in the Arabic language at that era and then you are saying musioon .

Ok, so according to you, I am a dishonest hypocrite. I have no idea what "even not smart on it" means. It seems that you are not aware that "eluding" actually means "escape from, as by daring, cleverness, or skill". You don't sound as though you are intentionally paying me a compliment.  ;)

Maybe your ancient Arabic is better than you English.

Languages are made by humans. And because there are so many, we humans have invented something called translations. People who are better in one language and learn another, help create translations from one language into another. That is why I can talk about a word used in a language I don't speak myself.

But, you see, because I get this weak and futile argument a lot, I included the position of a native Arab speaker, who does not agree with you but agrees with me.

Now what?
Now I have one native Arabic speaker who tells me he studied ancient or classic Arabic and I have you, admitting you don't really know the language.

Are you saying that the word musioon in 51:47 "Waalssamaa banaynaha biaydin wainna lamoosiAAoona" is really not an adjective, but a verb?

So I suggest that instead of calling me names using words you obviously don't understand, why don't you prove something, using, you know, facts and real arguments the way adults do?

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PM
It would be so easy if you would first check and then make accusations! I hate all this "I said" "you said" nonsense, but if you insist....

The topic of this thread is: "Is Quran Really Compatible with Science????"
In reply #2 I pointed out that "Earth is a sphere and rotates around the sun" was known long before Islam started, if we can agree that it started in the 7th century CE.

Yes i agree that you mentioned that the earth was known to be a sphere and rotate around the sun since the era of ancient egypt and greece

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMYou say I have changed "your" subject. Based on what?

Based on your discussion about the sphere earth and its rotation around the sun

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMIn my reply I show how pseudo-science is introduced and how this was done.

In reply #14 you first ask me why "the bible" doesn't mention this and accuse me of lying about the translation of a sentence.

Yes that was my point since you claimed that the earth was known to be a sphere and rotates around the sun then why it wasn't mentioned in the bible since the bible had mentioned the creation of day and night,sun..etc

But instead of replying my question you had moved to the expanding universe .

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMIn reply #16 I give you the reasons why I think the Bibles did not mention this and demonstrate that your translation of 51:47 can be just as wrong/off/misunderstood as the one I have taken from reputable translators.

You have to rely on yourself to find the truth and not what you called the reputable translators but the problem you don't know anything about arabic language and one example is your funny statement garden musioon الحديقة موسعون

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMIn the same reply I also showed you why I believe the claim in the example I provided was indeed dishonest, misleading and wrong. I also demonstrated that the Jewish Bible uses the same idea.

informations in the bible have been corrupted

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMSo, pray tell, how exactly am I changing what topic from what to what?

You didn't reply my question why the bible mentioned creation of day , night and the sun while not mentioning the sphere earth that rotates around the sun since it was known during ancient egyptians as you and some others claimed.

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMOk, so according to you, I am a dishonest hypocrite. I have no idea what "even not smart on it" means. It seems that you are not aware that "eluding" actually means "escape from, as by daring, cleverness, or skill". You don't sound as though you are intentionally paying me a compliment.  ;)

Maybe your ancient Arabic is better than you English.

Yes of course,for that reason i said to you it is useless trying to explain it to you while you know nothing about the arabic language and you have noticed that i said something in english which was wrong such as "even not smart on it" and "eluding".

You don't have your thoughts but only just copy and paste what other had said and i think that is the big problem

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMLanguages are made by humans. And because there are so many, we humans have invented something called translations. People who are better in one language and learn another, help create translations from one language into another. That is why I can talk about a word used in a language I don't speak myself.

Arabic language isn't as easy as english,try to translate the word لموسعون

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMBut, you see, because I get this weak and futile argument a lot, I included the position of a native Arab speaker, who does not agree with you but agrees with me.

if he agrees with you that doesn't mean that both of you are right.

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMNow what?
Now I have one native Arabic speaker who tells me he studied ancient or classic Arabic and I have you, admitting you don't really know the language.

Thats why i said its hard to explain it to you because you rely on the others and not yourself

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMAre you saying that the word musioon in 51:47 "Waalssamaa banaynaha biaydin wainna lamoosiAAoona" is really not an adjective, but a verb?

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (51:47)

You can notice first how long is the english sentence to explain the short arabic verse, 5 arabic words explained by around 20 english words.

i can't explain it to you whiloe you don't know arabic but i'll try my best to show you something which is easy for you to realize.

[it is we who are (or ) we are the one who]  What word do you think can be after it

it is we who are expand
it is we who are expanding it
it is we who are expanders

There is an action after "it is we who are",hope you can understand it even still in arabic much easier for you to understand 

it is we who are do
it is we who are doing it
it is we who are doers

Quote from: StopS on February 01, 2013, 04:03:11 PMSo I suggest that instead of calling me names using words you obviously don't understand, why don't you prove something, using, you know, facts and real arguments the way adults do?

Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity.

Quote from: FearGod on February 02, 2013, 07:24:18 AM
Yes i agree that you mentioned that the earth was known to be a sphere and rotate around the sun since the era of ancient egypt and greece

So how is talking about a spherical Earth and the orbits in our solar system a change of topic, when that is what I mentioned right at the start?

Quote
Yes that was my point since you claimed that the earth was known to be a sphere and rotates around the sun then why it wasn't mentioned in the bible since the bible had mentioned the creation of day and night,sun..etc
But instead of replying my question you had moved to the expanding universe .

I replied and because I try and show why I think this is true I usually provide an example or the sources. Here I gave an example.

Quote
You have to rely on yourself to find the truth and not what you called the reputable translators but the problem you don't know anything about arabic language and one example is your funny statement garden musioon الحديقة موسعون

ok

Quote
informations in the bible have been corrupted

And so what?

Quote
You didn't reply my question why the bible mentioned creation of day , night and the sun while not mentioning the sphere earth that rotates around the sun since it was known during ancient egyptians as you and some others claimed.

What does the Bible have to do with the contents of the Koran? Do I need to quote ALL creation myths around since Gilgamesh?

Quote
Yes of course,for that reason i said to you it is useless trying to explain it to you while you know nothing about the arabic language and you have noticed that i said something in english which was wrong such as "even not smart on it" and "eluding".

So then what are we doing here on an English speaking forum speaking English?

Quote
You don't have your thoughts but only just copy and paste what other had said and i think that is the big problem

Again jumping to conclusions. If you would have asked I would have explained that I copied this from my book I wrote after researching this myself.
You however, have nothing based on your own thoughts and research as you repeat only the Koran.

Quote
Arabic language isn't as easy as english,try to translate the word لموسعون

if he agrees with you that doesn't mean that both of you are right.

Thats why i said its hard to explain it to you because you rely on the others and not yourself

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (51:47)

You can notice first how long is the english sentence to explain the short arabic verse, 5 arabic words explained by around 20 english words.

i can't explain it to you whiloe you don't know arabic but i'll try my best to show you something which is easy for you to realize.

[it is we who are (or ) we are the one who]  What word do you think can be after it

it is we who are expand
it is we who are expanding it
it is we who are expanders

There is an action after "it is we who are",hope you can understand it even still in arabic much easier for you to understand 

it is we who are do
it is we who are doing it
it is we who are doers

Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity.

Ok, then I am stupid and you are not. This action called eisegesis is futile and dishonest. But if that's what you need in your life, thanks for letting me know.

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PM
So how is talking about a spherical Earth and the orbits in our solar system a change of topic, when that is what I mentioned right at the start?

i said since the earth was known to be a sphere and rotates around the sun then why not mentioned in older books and even if it
was mentioned in older books then their view was a speculation and philosophical one with no tangible evidence so to claim that the prophet used the philosophical views in the quran is a silly one.

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PMI replied and because I try and show why I think this is true I usually provide an example or the sources. Here I gave an example.

you didn't about heliocentric but you moved to the expanding universe

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PMAnd so what?

The bible is also a holy book and the information in Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out" was corrupted or mistranslated.

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PMWhat does the Bible have to do with the contents of the Koran? Do I need to quote ALL creation myths around since Gilgamesh?

Did you see,you have called them myths.
so how you claim that the quran got those scientific informations from those myths since Gigamesh and upward.

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PMSo then what are we doing here on an English speaking forum speaking English?

i meant to say i don't know english language as much as you know and conversely i know arabic language much than you know.

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PMAgain jumping to conclusions. If you would have asked I would have explained that I copied this from my book I wrote after researching this myself.
You however, have nothing based on your own thoughts and research as you repeat only the Koran.

Research what and you don't know anything about the arabic language.

Quote from: StopS on February 02, 2013, 01:25:08 PMOk, then I am stupid and you are not. This action called eisegesis is futile and dishonest. But if that's what you need in your life, thanks for letting me know.

i didn't mean to insult and accept my apology if it is understood to be so.

That was a quote by Michel De Montagaine which can apply on me and you and any one in our world,
search and understand well than just to be programmed to refuse anything which is religious.

Quote from: FearGod on February 03, 2013, 04:50:56 AM
i said since the earth was known to be a sphere and rotates around the sun then why not mentioned in older books and even if it was mentioned in older books then their view was a speculation and philosophical one with no tangible evidence so to claim that the prophet used the philosophical views in the quran is a silly one.

What brings you to believe I can answer a question regarding what people were thinking 2000 years ago? I told you it was NOT commonly known and you turn my words around as "it was known". What tangible evidence for what? "the prophet" being which prophet? What view is a "philosophical views in the quran" and what would make it silly.

Why don't make a bit more sense by explaining what you are talking about? Putting riddles here does not help anyone. Thanks.

Quote
you didn't about heliocentric but you moved to the expanding universe

Correct. I am not in the habit of explaining the problem with the problem itself. That wouldn't make sense, would it?

Quote
The bible is also a holy book and the information in Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out" was corrupted or mistranslated.

And the tangible evidence for this claim is: ......

Look, repeating something is not an explanation or evidence. It does not matter how many times you repeat it.

Quote
Did you see,you have called them myths. so how you claim that the quran got those scientific informations from those myths since Gigamesh and upward.

Yes, I called them myths. That's what you call something which is repeated often, but is the product of emotion and imagination.
I did not claim anything about how something originated in the Koran. I don't know.

Quote
i meant to say i don't know english language as much as you know and conversely i know arabic language much than you know.

Research what and you don't know anything about the arabic language.

i didn't mean to insult and accept my apology if it is understood to be so.

That was a quote by Michel De Montagaine which can apply on me and you and any one in our world,
search and understand well than just to be programmed to refuse anything which is religious.

Tell me something: does it really make much sense to ask me to translate something from Arabic to English when you know I don't speak Arabic?

You say you know Arabic but not whether you speak MSA or classic Arabic, whether you are a native speaker or whether you know just a few words. But regardless, it does not allow you to jump to conclusions when I write something.

How was I to know this was a quote from someone else? Anyway, I find it condescending, judgemental and wrong.

If you have any tangible evidence for anything of scientific interest in the Koran, which I consider to contain signs and not science, then please bring it up see if you can change my opinion.