Salaam everyone,
Here is a moment that I believe will be painful for whoever dares to read:
http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm)
The article proves very simply (read part 2 for instance) how the Night of Decree is indeed the 27th night of Ramadan.
Today is the day that lots of people of freeminds are exposed because they rejected gematrical value and claimed they are human made.
Unless you bury your head in the sand, I believe that this time you have no way out.
I pray this will be a wake up call and that you will pray for forgiveness on the coming Night of Decree this sunday (in America at least).
Again, Today is the day that Ayman and others are irreversibly exposed. Starting from there I believe that many will still reject part of the message as a whole, but at least whoever reads will receive a serious shock.
God is Almighty, Forgiver.
Peace.
Pierre
Quote from: 6619 on September 02, 2010, 06:27:36 PM
Salaam everyone,
Here is a moment that I believe will be painful for whoever dares to read:
Peace be up on you -- yes, very painful indeed.
Quote from: Noon de Plume on September 02, 2010, 07:58:58 PM
Peace be up on you -- yes, very painful indeed.
Agreed, and I like numbers.
Isn't this coming Sunday the 25th night and not the 27th night though?
Also, Allah made a year to be 365.25 days according to the sun (and moon) and as the Islamic calendar is 11 days shorter than that 'natural' year, does Allah comply with the Islamic calendar or with the natural calendar when this night will be?
Salaam Ayisha and all,
Quote from: Ayisha on September 03, 2010, 05:46:32 AM
Agreed, and I like numbers.
Isn't this coming Sunday the 25th night and not the 27th night though?
Also, Allah made a year to be 365.25 days according to the sun (and moon) and as the Islamic calendar is 11 days shorter than that 'natural' year, does Allah comply with the Islamic calendar or with the natural calendar when this night will be?
This coming sunday is the 27th night (before the first night we do not fast), at least for the US.
Allah made a year 365.25, Quran mentions 365 pure singular forms of "day". If you take a close look at those 341 verses where day occurs, the word "year" intersect three times with the "day" system which is an allegory that 365 is valid for three years, the fourth being the leap year.
I am wondering: Did you read the article ? Quran makes it clear in Quran that the night of Decree is coded as the 27th night of the 9th "moon". You did not read and study it.
Please study it, it is a short article, and then let me know if you still let Freeminds misguide you.
Peace.
Pierre
God bless.
Pierre
Quote from: 6619 on September 03, 2010, 09:59:54 AM
Salaam Ayisha and all,
This coming sunday is the 27th night (before the first night we do not fast), at least for the US.
The first night was night of 11 august, we started fasting (here in Egypt anyway) on 12th August, so today is the 24th night and sunday will be 26th, sorry not 25th. So in Egypt it will be Monday night, which is your Monday day in US. So if we all use different day out by 1 day, does that mean this night of decree comes to different countries at different nights and Allah is complying to when each country's muslims says this is it?
QuoteAllah made a year 365.25, Quran mentions 365 pure singular forms of "day". If you take a close look at those 341 verses where day occurs, the word "year" intersect three times with the "day" system which is an allegory that 365 is valid for three years, the fourth being the leap year.
but by the Islamic calendar, which is the one you are now using to denote this is ramadan, there are 354 days in a year and no leap years.
QuoteI am wondering: Did you read the article ? Quran makes it clear in Quran that the night of Decree is coded as the 27th night of the 9th "moon". You did not read and study it.
I started to read it but got halfway and found too many numbers meaning nothing, like your posts directly above with how many times 'day' is in Quran. But again the 27th day of the ninth moon of which calendar? It all depends on where one starts their year and the islamic calendar is 11 days out of the 365 days a year.
QuotePlease study it, it is a short article, and then let me know if you still let Freeminds misguide you.
sorry not sure what you mean by this, Allah guides me using the brain He gave me
QuotePeace.
Pierre
God bless.
Pierre
:peace:
Quote from: Ayisha on September 03, 2010, 10:29:07 AM
The first night was night of 11 august, we started fasting (here in Egypt anyway) on 12th August, so today is the 24th night and sunday will be 26th, sorry not 25th. So in Egypt it will be Monday night, which is your Monday day in US. So if we all use different day out by 1 day, does that mean this night of decree comes to different countries at different nights and Allah is complying to when each country's muslims says this is it?
but by the Islamic calendar, which is the one you are now using to denote this is ramadan, there are 354 days in a year and no leap years.
I started to read it but got halfway and found too many numbers meaning nothing, like your posts directly above with how many times 'day' is in Quran. But again the 27th day of the ninth moon of which calendar? It all depends on where one starts their year and the islamic calendar is 11 days out of the 365 days a year.
sorry not sure what you mean by this, Allah guides me using the brain He gave me
:peace:
You have to check the moonrise where you are. In the US the first night was the 10th, first day of fasting the 11th, Sept 5 the 27th night.
Quran acknowledges both a solar and lunar calendar.
Quran details the Night of Decree as the 27th night of the 9th moon. 2:185 tells us the Quran was revealed during Ramadan.
Did you read in the article that from the verse where the 27th word "NIGHT" occurs (17:78) until the verse where the 9th word "MOON" occurs (21:33), there are 410 verses: 410 is the gematrical value of "THE NIGHT OF DECREE". Furthermore the word "DAY" occurs 27 times between the 2 verses.There are so many other signs.
Freeminds has claimed that the gematrical value system is human made. They are insincere and dead wrong.
Peace.
Pierre
Quote from: 6619 on September 03, 2010, 11:12:45 AM
You have to check the moonrise where you are. In the US the first night was the 10th, first day of fasting the 11th, Sept 5 the 27th night.
still doesnt answer my question regarding Allah complying to when muslims of a certain country decide this night is
QuoteQuran acknowledges both a solar and lunar calendar.
you cant have both, you can have a mix which is what it should be but you cant have both. The Islamic calendar is what YOU are going by to say its is now ramadan and that calendar is 354 days to a year, an Islamic year, do you understand what i'm saying?
QuoteQuran details the Night of Decree as the 27th night of the 9th moon. 2:185 tells us the Quran was revealed during Ramadan.
Not ALL the Quran was revealed in ramadan, it was revealed over 23 years and if every verse had been sent in ramadan then they would not have changed to this calendar we use now as we would know that when a revelation came it must be ramadan, that didnt happen and after Muhammed died they started following a new calendar with only 354 days in a year and not the lunar-solar calendar in use.
QuoteDid you read in the article that from the verse where the 27th word "NIGHT" occurs (17:78) until the verse where the 9th word "MOON" occurs (21:33), there are 410 verses: 410 is the gematrical value of "THE NIGHT OF DECREE". Furthermore the word "DAY" occurs 27 times between the 2 verses.There are so many other signs.
seriously? you call that a 'sign'? why not take the 10th mention of night and the 8th mention of moon? From what im looking at now the 27th mention of night is in chapter 13, not 17, but will have to check that properly against the Arabic, but there is nothing to match this with the actual verse that tells you about this night anyway.
QuoteFreeminds has claimed that the gematrical value system is human made. They are insincere and dead wrong.
Peace.
Pierre
:o they claimed that?!! How dare they use logic and fact like that!
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 03, 2010, 09:59:54 AMQuran makes it clear in Quran that the night of Decree is coded as the 27th night of the 9th "moon".
How do you know the 9th moon?
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2010, 12:19:32 PM
Peace Pierre,
How do you know the 9th moon?
Peace,
Ayman
Did you read the article?
http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm)
I know it is the 9th moon because Quran was revealed during Ramadan (2:185).
I won't be able to answer any other post before tomorrow, I hope we can set this issue straight peacefully. It is very important.
God bless.
Quote??no matter what kind of miracles you present to those who disbelieve, they say: ?you are falsifiers? (30:58).
Ayisha
QuoteAgreed, and I like numbers.
Isn't this coming Sunday the 25th night and not the 27th night though?
Also, Allah made a year to be 365.25 days according to the sun (and moon) and as the Islamic calendar is 11 days shorter than that 'natural' year, does Allah comply with the Islamic calendar or with the natural calendar when this night will be?
Ayisha
Quotestill doesnt answer my question regarding Allah complying to when muslims of a certain country decide this night is
pierre
QuoteI am wondering: Did you read the article ? Quran makes it clear in Quran that the night of Decree is coded as the 27th night of the 9th "moon". You did not read and study it.
It is very hard to make her read or study, I thought it is only Me, no also Mazhar, wait and Mushu, and Fahad and now you who have same problem with her.
As for me it is 27th all the way. even before reading this article.
Quote from: Raaajah on September 03, 2010, 03:00:01 PM
AyishaAyisha
pierre
It is very hard to make her read or study, I thought it is only Me, no also Mazhar, wait and Mushu, and Fahad and now you who have same problem with her.
yes you do all seem to have something in common dont you ;D
QuoteAs for me it is 27th all the way. even before reading this article.
so raj, assuming you mean 27th of Ramadan which is the Isamic calendar that has 354 days in a year and not 365 which Allah has decreed a year marked by the orbit of the sun, can you tell me this: does Allah comply with muslims when they decide this night will be, or would it be one of the 365 nights that Allah made of which the islamic calendar is short by 11 days? Thinking about it, what if it is one of those 11 days that the Islamic calendar is missing :o
Why had Fahad got a problem with me ??? I haven't discussed anything with him ???
Quote from: 6619 on September 03, 2010, 01:32:39 PM
Salaam Ayman,
Did you read the article?
http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm)
I know it is the 9th moon because Quran was revealed during Ramadan (2:185).
I won't be able to answer any other post before tomorrow, I hope we can set this issue straight peacefully. It is very important.
God bless.
Yes Quran was raveled on 27th day of fasting ah my dear uncle Abu jahal and company were fasting when Quran was revealed. :yes
Salam
If the Lailatul Qadr falls on 21 or 23 or 25 or 27 or today or tomorrow what makes the difference to us. What do we understand from the verse.
Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Power. (Surely Quran)
Ah, what will explain unto thee what the Night of Power is! (Prophet does not know what is Night of Power)
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. (it is better than a thousand months, because in my opinion
Quran was revealed in that Night to dispel the Darkness of Ignorance)
The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees. (Does anybody know what are the decrees?)
(That night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn. (Can anyone define what is peace)
Then why so fuss about the above verses.
Has Allah commanded us to pray in this night?
Has Allah assured us forgiveness in this night?
Is this night's prayer is equal to 80 years of prayer.
It is high time that we should follow only what Allah has decreed and not CONJECTURES. It will lead us to NOWHERE.
May Allah guide us all.
Alhamdulilah, may the Lord reconcile our hearts, and accept the judgment of the messenger of God. I think my Lord chose certain people for certain purposes, I read the work Pierre did with the Night of Decree, and Solomon with the recitation, and Edip's argument for the recitation of al-fatiha during salat, back when Rashad was on earth, though he is alive at His Lord , and was editor of Submitters Perspective.
I feel blessed too, to have understood something about the 3 Semitic religions the Buddhist idea of 3 wise monkeys, which I am still exploring. But then I can also look to the works of other men, such as Ian Brown who had an album titled Unfinished Monkey Business, and later wrote a track titled Hear No See No and various other musicians like Coldplay "you just want somebody listening to what you say, it doesn't matter who you are," , and how by listening you philosophise, and the more you listen the more you know, and how the Old Testament was an orally transmitted book, almost like music. The Quran is beautiful book too, poetic, and now I can return to study the words, instead of the immense mathematics behind, I can believe, just on the presence of words of the Quran.
One of the great miracles ( Quran 74:35)
7+4+3+5=19
Peace
A Submitter
Quote from: asubmitter on September 03, 2010, 05:19:31 PM
Alhamdulilah, may the Lord reconcile our hearts, and accept the judgment of the messenger of God.
could you clarify this statement please :peace:
I tend to agree with Br Kazi. This is the night when Qur'an was revealed and is addressed to the Messenger Muhammad (SWS). It had a great significance for the future of mankind. It came with guidance that was to dispel darkness of ignorance and bring on a dawn of peace and enlightenment.
The Qur'an does not specify special prayers to be done this night. What came to us is from our parents, family, etc. That said, those who want to pray should pray, no harm.
If it is (as some believe) a night when peoples destinies are determined (including those belonging to Muslim Ummah) then considering the present state of affairs of the Ummah, Allah does not seem too pleased with us.
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 03, 2010, 01:32:39 PMDid you read the article?
http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm)
I read the article a while back and I read it again. There is nothing in there that answers my simple question.
How do you know the 9th moon?
Quote from: 6619 on September 03, 2010, 01:32:39 PMI know it is the 9th moon because Quran was revealed during Ramadan (2:185).
I won't be able to answer any other post before tomorrow, I hope we can set this issue straight peacefully. It is very important.
God bless.
I agree that the issue is very important. This is why it is important to separate what is manmade from what is god-given.
There is nothing inherent in the Hijri calendar month (not moon) named Ramadan that makes it the 9th whatever. In fact, there is nothing inherent in Shaaban that makes it month 8 and the same can be said about any Hijri month for that matter. Your assumption that it is the 9th something is a false assumption based on the 100% arbitrary and manmade order of the months in the Hijri calendar. Shaaban is in turn based on Rajab being 7 and Jumada Al-Thani being 6 and so on all the way back to when this calendar was first made up and which month it started with. Since the calendar started at the time of Umar, your present Ramadan is approximately month 17000 (give or take). Repeating the names of the months every 12 is all that the Hijri calendar does. Those names are anyway meaningless and 100% arbitrary and manmade.
Since what I am saying is pretty much indisputable, are you saying that the god descends the spirit on a certain night based on what Umar or some other guy decided for him?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: hafeez kazi on September 03, 2010, 05:00:57 PM
Salam
If the Lailatul Qadr falls on 21 or 23 or 25 or 27 or today or tomorrow what makes the difference to us. What do we understand from the verse.
Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Power. (Surely Quran)
Ah, what will explain unto thee what the Night of Power is! (Prophet does not know what is Night of Power)
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. (it is better than a thousand months, because in my opinion
Quran was revealed in that Night to dispel the Darkness of Ignorance)
The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees. (Does anybody know what are the decrees?)
(That night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn. (Can anyone define what is peace)
Then why so fuss about the above verses.
Has Allah commanded us to pray in this night?
Has Allah assured us forgiveness in this night?
Is this night's prayer is equal to 80 years of prayer.
It is high time that we should follow only what Allah has decreed and not CONJECTURES. It will lead us to NOWHERE.
May Allah guide us all.
THIS IS ALSO WHAT I ASK ME FRIENDS ABOUT... WHATS ABOUT THIS NIGHT? WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT IT IS THAT IT IS GONE.
Quote from: WayFinder on September 04, 2010, 02:22:52 AM
THIS IS ALSO WHAT I ASK ME FRIENDS ABOUT... WHATS ABOUT THIS NIGHT? WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT IT IS THAT IT IS GONE.
No, it is not gone, it comes every year on the night of orange moon, which is God's marker for starting a year for mankind. It is the first full moon after summer solstice.
What i can perceive, Allah sends down plans/instructions for mankind/individual, to the controllers on this night. He also sent down Quran on this night once 1400 years ago.
He also picked out this marker, for us to start fasting for a few days.
siki
Quote from: siki on September 04, 2010, 02:48:34 AM
No, it is not gone, it comes every year on the night of orange moon, which is God's marker for starting a year for mankind. It is the first full moon after summer solstice.
What i can perceive, Allah sends down plans/instructions for mankind/individual, to the controllers on this night. He also sent down Quran on this night once 1400 years ago.
He also picked out this marker, for us to start fasting for a few days.
siki
Why not everyday? Moreover, the verses does not imply a single time that the quran was being revealed on that special night. How do we conclude that the quran was revealed on this particular night?
Quote from: WayFinder on September 04, 2010, 04:04:34 AM
Why not everyday? Moreover, the verses does not imply a single time that the quran was being revealed on that special night. How do we conclude that the quran was revealed on this particular night?
97-1 we sent it down in the night of destiny,
what is been sent from GOd? most probably Quran. let us confirm it.
2-185 shahar ur ramadhan , that we sent down quran,
If we co relate two ayays we can safely deduce,
Quran was sent down in a night , which was marked by shahar ur ramadhaan, ( FUll moon of scorching heat) , so the night which bagan with shhar ur ramadahn , is know as lalitul qadar, (night of destiny) why is He calling it as night of destiny or decree or Qadar? Because GOd is also telling us that He sends down his messengers/controllers with annul new plan regarding direction of our lives for next year begining with this night, which is marked with full moon of scorching heat, or the orange moon.
And He also decided to make us fast for few days after watching shahru ramadhan, so actually ,if we follow the system correctly, we would end up starting our first fast when lailatul qadar is fininshing.
TO understand above properly you have to first find out what is meant by
shahr , and shahr ur ramadhan in GOd's system.
siki
Quote
97-1 we sent it down in the night of destiny,
what is been sent from GOd? most probably Quran. let us confirm it.
Agree its a probability but why is it the only option? It could be referring to the Orders which the controllers bring in this night. Not only to the Quran... since the Quran was already revealed since long. Moreover, the explanation given on this night is directly related to the stuff occurring on that night.. Therefore, the IT can be linked to the event of the "Order' as well.
Quote2-185 shahar ur ramadhan , that we sent down quran,
Yes... that does not imply a single night . Could be the whole month little by little.
QuoteIf we co relate two ayays we can safely deduce,
Quran was sent down in a night , which was marked by shahar ur ramadhaan, ( FUll moon of scorching heat) , so the night which bagan with shhar ur ramadahn , is know as lalitul qadar, (night of destiny) why is He calling it as night of destiny or decree or Qadar? Because GOd is also telling us that He sends down his messengers/controllers with annul new plan regarding direction of our lives for next year begining with this night, which is marked with full moon of scorching heat, or the orange moon.
Personally, I have never been observe such a phenomena in my region... Though, I might have missed it.. but every time i check the moon here.. that is very often to say, it is always bright. I have read about the scorching heat etc... I would need to hunt for this moon here.
Quote from: WayFinder on September 04, 2010, 06:36:39 AM
Agree its a probability but why is it the only option? It could be referring to the Orders which the controllers bring in this night. Not only to the Quran... since the Quran was already revealed since long. Moreover, the explanation given on this night is directly related to the stuff occurring on that night.. Therefore, the IT can be linked to the event of the "Order' as well.
Yes... that does not imply a single night . Could be the whole month little by little.
Personally, I have never been observe such a phenomena in my region... Though, I might have missed it.. but every time i check the moon here.. that is very often to say, it is always bright. I have read about the scorching heat etc... I would need to hunt for this moon here.
Brother, first you have to spend a few weeks on the thread down below, for correctly comprehending "Shahar" , once you do , Inshaallah every thing will fall in place.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
This is one of the biggest breakthroughs that this forum has ever made, with brother Aymen in the lead.
Thanks
siki
Quote from: siki on September 04, 2010, 10:25:23 AM
Brother, first you have to spend a few weeks on the thread down below, for correctly comprehending "Shahar" , once you do , Inshaallah every thing will fall in place.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
This is one of the biggest breakthroughs that this forum has ever made, with brother Aymen in the lead.
Thanks
siki
Bear with me.. I have indeed read this a while back brother...
With or without the shahr... the fact remain that attibuting the HU[it] to Quran alone is just an option and the other option is the 'Malaaikah bringing the orders' itself... The Surah does not speak at all regarding revelation of the Quran. So, why are we attributing the HU[it] with Quran revelation... I think we have these options
1. Revelation of Quran
2. The event of descent of malaaikah with orders etc
3. The Rooh
Now, what are the clear proof for us to fix the HU[it] to the Quran?
Peace Siki, WayFinder, all,
Here is an article in Arabic on this subject:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
I think that the arguments are even more compelling in Arabic.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman and all,
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2010, 12:37:06 AM
Peace Pierre,
I read the article a while back and I read it again. There is nothing in there that answers my simple question.
How do you know the 9th moon?
I agree that the issue is very important. This is why it is important to separate what is manmade from what is god-given.
There is nothing inherent in the Hijri calendar month (not moon) named Ramadan that makes it the 9th whatever. In fact, there is nothing inherent in Shaaban that makes it month 8 and the same can be said about any Hijri month for that matter. Your assumption that it is the 9th something is a false assumption based on the 100% arbitrary and manmade order of the months in the Hijri calendar. Shaaban is in turn based on Rajab being 7 and Jumada Al-Thani being 6 and so on all the way back to when this calendar was first made up and which month it started with. Since the calendar started at the time of Umar, your present Ramadan is approximately month 17000 (give or take). Repeating the names of the months every 12 is all that the Hijri calendar does. Those names are anyway meaningless and 100% arbitrary and manmade.
Since what I am saying is pretty much indisputable, are you saying that the god descends the spirit on a certain night based on what Umar or some other guy decided for him?
Peace,
Ayman
Sura 97 teaches us that no only Quran was revealed on the Night of decree (97:1), it is also that day God sends the angels and the spirit to carry out every command (97:4).
- 97:1 is a one time event in the history of mankind: Revelation of Quran.
- 97:4 is a recurring event once a year since there is life on earth, until the Day of Judgment.
These are two different things. In general terms, God says The Night of Decree is better than 1000 months: It is the power associated with this yearly recurring event where God organises everything on earth.
God's system is based on 12 months:9:36 The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is
twelve.
This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
As you can see in the verse, God does not detail the names of all months,
because he knows we know.
I said in my previous post that it is an undisputable fact Quran was revealed during Ramadan. It is the only name of month mentioned by name in Quran. Why ? Because we know.
2:183 teaches us that the fast of Ramadan has been in place long before Muhammad.
Quran mentions the word "month" 12 times. It is His system.
Ayman, you are really missing the point because you do not understand that God controls everything. You look for answers and dispute everything, when the number and names of months, even the Night of Decree has been passed down to us very well.
By revisiting everything all the time, you get lost.
Again, the lunar 12 months system has been in place "since the day He created the heavens and the earth" (9:36). God says it, we shall submit.
I hope for you and as many people as possible that you will realize today, as tomorrow in "the blessed night" of Decree (at least in America, I don't know where you are), that you are going to reap the benefits of that night, pray, meditate, that we will all do that and benefit from the awesome power associated with it.
I provided dramatic proofs that it is the 27th night of the 9th moon.
I know that thus far you claimed that the gematrical value is human made. It is not too late to realize the truth:
- There are 410 verses between 17:78 (27th occurrence of the word "Night" since the beginning of Quran) and 21:33 (9th occurrence of the word "Moon").
This is an indisputable FACT.
- There are 27 words "day" between 17:78 and 21:33.
This is an indisputable FACT.
- 410 is the gematrical value of the night of Decree.
- 27 is the number of days in the "9th moon", and the day of the night of Decree:I do not need to repeat or detail here the many amazing signs mentionned in the article about "the night of Decree (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm)).
These signs are far beyond what any force in the universe can achieve.
I will thus keep it very simple, either you take it, or you leave it.
Anyone who is not sincere, God gives it the opportunity to say: "This is human made" (see 74:25), or "the gematrical value system is nothing,
410 verses between 17:78 and 21:33 was just luck". In truth, God appeals to our sincerity and intelligence.
These are staigthforward signs, yes anyone can always argue.
Ayman I simply want to let you know, from the bottom of my heart, today is a turning point, you are given a once in a lifetime chance, and everyone on this forum who does not understand the Night of Decree as well: If you reject the signs you will deeply regret it on the Day of Judgment.
There should be no ego involved here. I have crashed in my life. You have also crashed. Everyone has crashed., At one point we must say
STOP or pay the consequences.
We will all be interrogated, and rejecting such signs is not free.
I wish to everyone a blessed end of Ramadan, a blessed Night od Decree where we are given a miraculous opportunity to praise and glorify God while He is sending his blessings on earth together with the angels and Gabriel, the spirit.
Glory to God.
Pierre
Hum: How many 27 nights are there in month of ramadan??
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 04, 2010, 04:30:12 PMAs you can see in the verse, God does not detail the names of all months, because he knows we know.
I said in my previous post that it is an undisputable fact Quran was revealed during Ramadan. It is the only name of month mentioned by name in Quran. Why ? Because we know.
2:183 teaches us that the fast of Ramadan has been in place long before Muhammad.
Your fuzzy statement
"because we know" is the real basis of your entire house of cards. May I ask you HOW do you know?
You don't seem to know that your so called Ramadan is dependent upon Shaaban...Muharam and so on. Without those Hijri calendar months and their specific order and sequence and which month and year the calendar started from then there is no Ramadan for you. Are you saying that the god inspired Umar to make the Hijri calendar??
Also, you don't seem to know the simple indisputable fact that there was no such thing as the Hijri calendar before Muhammad.
How do you know anything if you don't even seem to know those simple indisputable facts.
Peace,
Ayman
The author of the book titled 3, available on Kindle and iBooks, also available to read on www.12-3.co.uk, a research into the concept of mind.body and soul, 3 wise monkeys and the 3 Semetic religions.
Producer of the 3 albums, Reflections,Retro and Wizard Music, available to listen on www.soundcloud.com/a-submitter. Electronic, spineless music, ambient and experimental, and quite childish.
The writer of 2 collection of poems, 'Growing in Logic' and 'Water is more precious than gold to people', available on Kindle and soon to be on iBooks. Also available on the official artist page, www.asubmitter.co.uk
To know things by their opposites, submitters are the opposite of warriors, whereas most agree there are ways in which to negotiate and to be peaceful there are others who choose war and selfishness, submitters to the will of God, trust in the Lord God, and know He is Most Gracious and Most Merciful, they practise patience, uphold the truth, and are not attached to the material world, instead they are keen to do right and to please God, they are blessed thankful rather than wicked regretful, if you study young children they seem to fight over everything, but submitters can let go, they realise everything is nothing. They submit to Lord of the universe, who sustains and protects. Muslim is a word which transcends other religions, in that submitters is a condition whereby you are convinced only God possesses power, and have faith in God and the prophecy of the Last Day, and believe in God and the miracles in the present moment, and devote to God and the truth of past. For more information I would recommend the book 3 available online and through Kindle and iBooks.
Peace
Kashif Hussain
A Submitter
salaam Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2010, 05:37:45 PM
Peace Pierre,
Your fuzzy statement "because we know" is the real basis of your entire house of cards. May I ask you HOW do you know?
You don't seem to know that your so called Ramadan is dependent upon Shaaban...Muharam and so on. Without those Hijri calendar months and their specific order and sequence and which month and year the calendar started from then there is no Ramadan for you. Are you saying that the god inspired Umar to make the Hijri calendar??
Also, you don't seem to know the simple indisputable fact that there was no such thing as the Hijri calendar before Muhammad.
How do you know anything if you don't even seem to know those simple indisputable facts.
Peace,
Ayman
God controls everything and you deny it.
God himself acknowldeges the month of Ramadan in Quran. Is Ramadan man made?
Are 12 months man made, when God himself proclaims it in Quran?
Believers before Muhammad fasted in the 9th month, wich God acknowledges as Ramadan.
Even the Bible acknowleges fasting the 9th month (Jeremiah 36:9).
Now you are provided with a divine system that proves the night of Decree in Quran as the 27th "Night" of the 9th "Moon", still you reject it, out of ego, even it is so logical and makes so much sense. A 10 year old would understand, and you too understand. But it would make you look bad in front of your crowd. and you would have to make a complete U turn on your approach of Islam.
You made your decision: So be it.
Peace.
Pierre
Dear 6619,
I have asked this question above and I am asking it again... what makes you think the quran was revealed on that night? Nowhere in the verse does it say or imply it as such. I am not rejecting the idea but i just want to find the origin of this concept... whether it can be showed from quranic verses or not..
Brothers
I found the answer to my own question.. Indeed the Quran tell us that IT has been revealed on a blessed night in 44:3
'Indeed, We sent it down during a blessed night. Indeed, We were to warn [mankind]'
There is no argument on this anymore, it is very clear from 44:2-4 that God is speaking about the Quran.
Therefore, now it fits for me that the IT in the laylatul qadr is eventually pointing to the Quran as well...
Praise God
Quote from: WayFinder on September 05, 2010, 03:36:45 AM
Brothers
I found the answer to my own question.. Indeed the Quran tell us that IT has been revealed on a blessed night in 44:3
'Indeed, We sent it down during a blessed night. Indeed, We were to warn [mankind]'
There is no argument on this anymore, it is very clear from 44:2-4 that God is speaking about the Quran.
Therefore, now it fits for me that the IT in the laylatul qadr is eventually pointing to the Quran as well...
Praise God
Good job , finding out the missing link.
siki
Salaam dear wayfinder,
Quote from: WayFinder on September 05, 2010, 03:32:39 AM
Dear 6619,
I have asked this question above and I am asking it again... what makes you think the quran was revealed on that night? Nowhere in the verse does it say or imply it as such. I am not rejecting the idea but i just want to find the origin of this concept... whether it can be showed from quranic verses or not..
You did not read sura 97 and you did not read the article: http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm)
Peace.
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AMGod controls everything and you deny it.
God also controls that people make up lies (see 6:112). Should we all start believe in manmade lies such as Hadiths? There is no difference between the 100% manmade Hadiths and the 100% manmade calendar that you are asking us to believe is from the god. Do you really expect us to believe in your silent assumption that the god inspired Umar to invent the Hijri calendar? Is Umar another one of your new messengers now?
Quote from: 6619 on September 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AMGod himself acknowldeges the month of Ramadan in Quran. Is Ramadan man made?
Yes. It is an indisputable fact that your so-called Ramadan is 100% manmade because it is 100% based on manmade decisions. The Arabic word "ramadan" that the god selected to describe the timing actually means "scorching heat".
Quote from: 6619 on September 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AMAre 12 months man made, when God himself proclaims it in Quran?
Yes. The Gregorian calendar also has 12 months. Are you saying that January is not manmade?
Quote from: 6619 on September 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AMBelievers before Muhammad fasted in the 9th month, wich God acknowledges as Ramadan.
Even the Bible acknowleges fasting the 9th month (Jeremiah 36:9).
This is 100% meaningless nonsense. There is no "9th month" without month 1 and it is 100% dependent on it. This is indisputable. What is your month 1? Did the god inspire your month 1?
You also keep ignoring the indisputable fact that there was no Hijri calendar prior to Umar. Surely, this is the sign of a weak mind.
Quote from: 6619 on September 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AMNow you are provided with a divine system that proves the night of Decree in Quran as the 27th "Night" of the 9th "Moon", still you reject it, out of ego, even it is so logical and makes so much sense. A 10 year old would understand, and you too understand. But it would make you look bad in front of your crowd. and you would have to make a complete U turn on your approach of Islam.
You made your decision: So be it.
Again, when cornered instead of answering to the indisputable facts that your Hijri calendar is 100% arbitrary and manmade and didn't even exist until the time of Umar you hide behind appeals to emotions and fuzzy feely rhetoric without any substance. Deep inside you are just as dogmatic as the biggest bearded Sunni.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam,
Ayman
QuoteThis is 100% meaningless nonsense. There is no "9th month" without month 1 and it is 100% dependent on it. This is indisputable. What is your month 1? Did the god inspire your month 1?
Please if you can answer following questions, it will be easier to understand.
Why there was need for Calendars?
What is the calendar inspired by God?
does it exist?
and which country/nation follows it?
Thanks
Quote from: WayFinder on September 05, 2010, 03:36:45 AM
Brothers
I found the answer to my own question.. Indeed the Quran tell us that IT has been revealed on a blessed night in 44:3
'Indeed, We sent it down during a blessed night. Indeed, We were to warn [mankind]'
There is no argument on this anymore, it is very clear from 44:2-4 that God is speaking about the Quran.
Therefore, now it fits for me that the IT in the laylatul qadr is eventually pointing to the Quran as well...
Praise God
Brother,
You correctly said this. And if you read the next Ayaat you will find the explanation of what is stated about Lailatul Qadr.
And even if you consider the verbal noun of the verb in 97:01 it will indicate one time event, as apprintice has said in his post. And pronoun "hu" in the same verb has been used for Qur'aan at 12 places in the Grand Qur'aan.
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/044.%20Ad%20Dukhan/44.03.gif) [Same information in 97:01]
It is a fact that We had descended this Book/Grand Qur'aan [as composite whole unit] during the Night which has been declared/made as of permanence and perpetuation thus blessed one. [Refer 44:03]
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/044.%20Ad%20Dukhan/44.04.gif)
During that Night [referred to above] each and every matter, which was hitherto a secreted and infolded matter/decision, is made distinctly exposed in isolated manner from each other [to the concerned Angels-the executers of commands of Allah], [44:04]
Surat 44 (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/044.%20Ad%20Dukhan/044.%20Ad%20Dukhan.htm)
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/097.%20Al%20Qadr/97.04.gif)
during that night, by the Will/permission of Allah, Angels and Gib'raa'eil cause themselves to come down intermittently [to the Sky of Earth for disclosure for implementation/execution], with command/ decision/decree on each and every matter/affair; [97:04]
Surat 97 (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/097.%20Al%20Qadr/097.%20Al%20Qadr.htm#97:04)
Peace,
Quote from: Raaajah on September 05, 2010, 05:27:02 PM
Why there was need for Calendars?
We need calendars to keep track of time, appointments, computers programs and websites running, etc.
Although time is an illusion of our consciousness -- try using that excuse next time you're late for work. lol
Quote from: Raaajah on September 05, 2010, 05:27:02 PM
What is the calendar inspired by God?
does it exist?
84:18
والقمر and the moon اذا when اتسق it evened/full
89:1-4
والفجر and the dawn
وليال and night عشر ten
والشفع and the even والوتر and the odd
والليل and the night اذا hence يسر departsPerhaps 10th night/s refers to that of full moon with 30 and 29 even/odd cycles.
Need to precisely calculate cycles see if there is a repeatable pattern; example:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/op0i9g.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/9abqiq.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/28mmn3d.jpg)
Peace Raaajah,
Quote from: Raaajah on September 05, 2010, 05:27:02 PMPlease if you can answer following questions, it will be easier to understand.
Why there was need for Calendars?
Calendars are manmade tools for keeping track of natural cycles that are important for our lives. For example, useful calendars enable farmers to plan when to plant crops and when to harvest them.
Quote from: Raaajah on September 05, 2010, 05:27:02 PMWhat is the calendar inspired by God?
does it exist?
and which country/nation follows it?
There is no calendar inspired by the god. What the god has made are natural cosmic phenomena. For example, he instructs us about the "salat" (learning connection) at daybreak and after sunset. He doesn't tell us at 5AM and 7:30PM. While daybreak and sunset are god-given universal markers, 5AM and 7:30PM are manmade and not universal. They are not always true as daytime and night will be shorter and longer and require modern timekeeping instruments. They also depend on when hour 0 takes place and how many divisions are in a day. The choice of midnight as 0 and the 24 hours divisions is 100% arbitrary and manmade.
The same thing can be said about the Hijri and Gregorian calendars. The choice of month 1 (which all the other months depend on) and the order of the months is 100% arbitrary and manmade. Just as the god has told us about timing within the day using clear signs of sunset and daybreak and not 5AM and 7:30PM, which depend on arbitrary manmade decisions, he has also told us about the timing of events within the year using clear signs and not Hijri or Gregorian or any other manmade arbitrary calendar. The god has inspired us to use natural cosmic phenomena for timing and for correctly obeying him. This is discussed in details here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Also, if you know Arabic you can read the following article:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
Peace,
Ayman
Aymen
QuoteCalendars are manmade tools for keeping track of natural cycles that are important for our lives. For example, useful calendars enable farmers to plan when to plant crops and when to harvest them.
Noon de plume
QuoteWe need calendars to keep track of time, appointments, computers programs and websites running, etc.
Therefore what i get from these statements is that Calendar is a man made tool to help us.
Aymen
QuoteThere is no difference between the 100% manmade Hadiths and the 100% manmade calendar that you are asking us to believe is from the god. Do you really expect us to believe in your silent assumption that the god inspired Umar to invent the Hijri calendar? Is Umar another one of your new messengers now?
But after reading the above I am still confused that
Weather inspired by God or not, why should we not take Hijri calendar to mark the month of "Scorching heat"? in absence of God made calendar
Aymen
QuoteThere is no calendar inspired by the god.
I will study the answers to my questions one by one, and try to understand as this concept is some thing totally contrary to existing or in practice.
May be I can find the answer to my other questions in the thread mentioned.
Aymen
Quote...he has also told us about the timing of events within the year using clear signs and not Hijri or Gregorian or any other manmade arbitrary calendar..
But I have found no aayt in Quran which says that we should not use man made tools which might help us, however may be in this thread I can find out, mentioned by you.
Noon D Plume, so you think that Allah has provided the hints to calendar in Quran, contrary to what Aymen believes that There is no calendar inspired by the god.
Peace Noon,
Quote from: Noon de Plume on September 05, 2010, 11:25:31 PM84:18
والقمر and the moon اذا when اتسق it evened/full
89:1-4
والفجر and the dawn
وليال and night عشر ten
والشفع and the even والوتر and the odd
والليل and the night اذا hence يسر departs
Perhaps 10th night/s refers to that of full moon with 30 and 29 even/odd cycles.
Need to precisely calculate cycles see if there is a repeatable pattern; example:
I actually experienced 84:16-18 this year and it was the most amazing thing.
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk. After sunset when the sky is glowing red
84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds. and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction
84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2nqe0yh.jpg)
36:39. And the moon we have measured in descending stages, until it becomes like an old curved sheath.97:1. We have sent it down in the night of measure.
97:2. And do you know what the night of measure is?
97:3. The night of measure is better than one thousand full-moons.
97:4. The controllers and the spirit come down in it by their lord?s leave in every matter.
97:5. It is peaceful until the rising of the dawn.89:1-3. By the dawn and ten nights and the even and the odd.Dawn is the common point so:
Night of measure + 10 nights = 11 odd nights marking the 10 even days of fasting.
Putting it all together:
(http://i51.tinypic.com/96hn5k.jpg)
Amazing.
Peace,
Ayman
Bro Ayman
Thanks for sharing your studies... What about the 10 days fasting? Is it meant to be the fasting of Ramadan? That is, 10 days instead of 30?
Peace brother WayFinder,
Quote from: WayFinder on September 06, 2010, 01:29:26 PMThanks for sharing your studies... What about the 10 days fasting? Is it meant to be the fasting of Ramadan? That is, 10 days instead of 30?
Yes. It is 10 days. The "scorching full-moon" (shahr ramadan) is simply a marker. The verb "shahed" (witnessed) in 2:185 is perfect past tense. It is impossible to witness a 30 day period first and then go back in time and fast it.
We are told to fast for a few days in 2:183 (few is 3 to 10). We are then told to complete the count in 2:185 (completing 3 to 10 is reaching 10). See below (I am not sure if you know Arabic. Please let me know if you would like a translation):
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الصِّيَامُ كَمَا كُتِبَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ
أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُم مَّرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ وَعَلَى الَّذِينَ يُطِيقُونَهُ فِدْيَةٌ طَعَامُ مِسْكِينٍ فَمَن تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّهُ وَأَن تَصُومُواْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ
شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ الْقُرْآنُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَاتٍ مِّنَ الْهُدَى وَالْفُرْقَانِ فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ يُرِيدُ اللّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلاَ يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
وَاذْكُرُواْ اللّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْدُودَاتٍ فَمَن تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَن تَأَخَّرَ فَلا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ لِمَنِ اتَّقَى وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ
وَأَتِمُّواْ الْحَجَّ وَالْعُمْرَةَ لِلّهِ فَإِنْ أُحْصِرْتُمْ فَمَا اسْتَيْسَرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ وَلاَ تَحْلِقُواْ رُؤُوسَكُمْ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ الْهَدْيُ مَحِلَّهُ فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُم مَّرِيضاً أَوْ بِهِ أَذًى مِّن رَّأْسِهِ فَفِدْيَةٌ مِّن صِيَامٍ أَوْ صَدَقَةٍ أَوْ نُسُكٍ فَإِذَا أَمِنتُمْ فَمَن تَمَتَّعَ بِالْعُمْرَةِ إِلَى الْحَجِّ فَمَا اسْتَيْسَرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ ثَلاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ فِي الْحَجِّ وَسَبْعَةٍ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ تِلْكَ عَشَرَةٌ كَامِلَةٌ ذَلِكَ لِمَن لَّمْ يَكُنْ أَهْلُهُ حَاضِرِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ
Peace,
Ayman
salaam Wayfinder and all,
Quote from: WayFinder on September 06, 2010, 01:29:26 PM
Bro Ayman
Thanks for sharing your studies... What about the 10 days fasting? Is it meant to be the fasting of Ramadan? That is, 10 days instead of 30?
I am amazed how gullible people on this website are.
2:185 Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witnessed this month (the new moon appeared, perfect tense, the event belongs now to the past) shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
Out of ego and lack of knowledge, Ayman is trying to reinvent the meaning of words.
"Ramadan" is the month of Ramadan (30 days), the plural of "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, the maximum number of days of fasting.
Unbelievable that people let their lives be destroyed by such an insincere person (Ayman) who utters such nonsense.
Do not let yourselves be impressed by the seemingly scholarly tone of Ayman: Look at the facts, they are simple, not twisted.
My advice: Leave this website because people who try to reinvent the wheel out of ego will destroy you. If you hang out with them, you become like them.
Follow Quran alone, not Ayman alone.
Peace.
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 06, 2010, 05:44:19 PM2:185 Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witnessed this month (the new moon appeared, perfect tense, the event belongs now to the past) shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
How do you know that it is the new moon that we are to witness? and which new moon exactly? Also, the verb witnessed applies to "shahr". Are you now saying that "shahr" means the "new moon"?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Raaajah on September 06, 2010, 07:05:00 AM
Noon D Plume, so you think that Allah has provided the hints to calendar in Quran, contrary to what Aymen believes that There is no calendar inspired by the god.
Peace Raaajah,
I don't believe in hints rather precise instructions by carefully studying every word and it's exact use and meaning; now if people want to calculate precise times collect them into a handy calendar or whatever they call it, that's up to them.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2010, 01:24:53 PM
89:1-3. By the dawn and ten nights and the even and the odd.
I have a question pertaining to 89:2 and the exact meaning:
19:10 ثلاث three ليال nights
69:7 سبع seven ليال nights وثمانية and eight ايام days
89:2 وليال and? عشر tenWhat is the difference when number is written after vs. before the phrase ? ten nights or can it mean tenth night?
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2010, 01:51:42 PM
Peace brother WayFinder,
وَأَتِمُّواْ الْحَجَّ وَالْعُمْرَةَ لِلّهِ فَإِنْ أُحْصِرْتُمْ فَمَا اسْتَيْسَرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ وَلاَ تَحْلِقُواْ رُؤُوسَكُمْ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ الْهَدْيُ مَحِلَّهُ فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُم مَّرِيضاً أَوْ بِهِ أَذًى مِّن رَّأْسِهِ فَفِدْيَةٌ مِّن صِيَامٍ أَوْ صَدَقَةٍ أَوْ نُسُكٍ فَإِذَا أَمِنتُمْ فَمَن تَمَتَّعَ بِالْعُمْرَةِ إِلَى الْحَجِّ فَمَا اسْتَيْسَرَ مِنَ الْهَدْيِ فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ ثَلاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ فِي الْحَجِّ وَسَبْعَةٍ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ تِلْكَ عَشَرَةٌ كَامِلَةٌ ذَلِكَ لِمَن لَّمْ يَكُنْ أَهْلُهُ حَاضِرِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ
Peace,
Thank you for the clarification and it is much appreciated. Since so much corruption has already occurred in the system... It would be no wonder at all if the ramadan as well had been a target in the past and therefore been distorted.. We should be striving and trying to uncover the truth in all these through our studies... May God enlighten us with knowledge.
As for the verses, I have no problem with the 2 verses which were prior to the verse above... The verse above seems to be talking about another context(hence hajj/umrah) which i have yet to understand. And the verse also seems to be a conditional statement which I have highlighted in blue.. and therefore, it does not seem to be a general rule. I would like to get your view on it.
Moreover, why at least 3 terms has been used in relation to the moon which is qamar, hilal/ahillah/shahr... what is your view on this?
Quote from: WayFinder on September 06, 2010, 10:51:52 PM
Moreover, why at least 3 terms has been used in relation to the moon which is qamar, hilal/ahillah/shahr... what is your view on this?
Qamar, is Moon.
Hilal, crescent shape of moon is called hilal
Ahillat, plural, multi shapes of hilal , crescent like
Badar, (this one you missed) Full rounded shapes could be denoted with term Badar
Shahr, Is the full moon, could be mixed up with Badars of plus minus one day, the best way to find out cosmically,
"The
first full moon which would rise
after the sun sets"
Peace siki,
Quote from: siki on September 07, 2010, 12:31:59 AM
Qamar, is Moon.
Shahr, Is the full moon
What is this then?
84:18 والقمر and the moon اذا when اتسق it evened/full
Quote from: siki on September 07, 2010, 12:31:59 AM
Qamar, is Moon.
Hilal, crescent shape of moon is called hilal
Ahillat, plural, multi shapes of hilal , crescent like
Badar, (this one you missed) Full rounded shapes could be denoted with term Badar
Shahr, Is the full moon, could be mixed up with Badars of plus minus one day, the best way to find out cosmically,
"The first full moon which would rise after the sun sets"
Thanks Siki... I did not know about the Badar... However, I do not think it has been used in the quran to mean/related to moon anywhere.. in case I am mistaken... do tell me.
Peace all, please bear with me as I try to put this across in word!
I have something new about this that I am a bit confused about. I was having a discussion at 5am this morning with hubby about Quran, hadith, Ramadan and stuff, which is a great thing as he normally ends up not quite refusing to listen but refusing to go out of his depth and 'threatening' to get the sheikh to talk to me :-\
The sheikh is spending the last 10 nights of ramadan in the mosque in prayer, so I have to wait. This leads on to when the night of decree is. Hubby recited something and in this was a word that sounded like shahr(month) but isnt. In my questioning he then tells me other words that sound like shahr to my ears like hair and mustache and this other word he said means - from what I can gather from his actions- 'blinding sun'. This reminded me of what I have read on 'scorching heat'. What he tried to explain - bearing in mind we are in Egypt and blinding sun is there all the time - and what I could gather is that after this night the sun rise is not as blinding sun as every other day is, possibly due to the peaceful stuff that's happened in the night? :-\ and thats how they know this night has happened, not that its going to happen, hence the prayer every night for the last 10 nights.
I have just got up and got on corpus Quran and I can't find this word in sura 97 ???
Any ideas anyone? ???
Salaam Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2010, 08:20:47 PM
Peace Pierre,
How do you know that it is the new moon that we are to witness? and which new moon exactly? Also, the verb witnessed applies to "shahr". Are you now saying that "shahr" means the "new moon"?
Peace,
Ayman
Yes, it is exactly what I am saying: The new "month" appears with the new "moon". It is the same. God said there are 12 months, it simply means 12 new "moons" with their phases, until the new moon reappears.
It is perfectly clear in the document that proves incontrovertibly the Night of Decree, that "Moon" and "Month" connect in the same way with the 27th night. (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm), read part 2).
Also getting to what you claim is a man made calendar, when Omar started counted years from the Hijri, in fact he did not change anything to the lunar calendar which has been in existence since the sun, planet earth and the moon form a system.
9:36
The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
People who have eyes to see know full well that the lunar calendar is not man made:
God established it. It is engraved in Quran forever.
People who make up lies on this website have in reality no faith, no fear in God. They are blind and follow their own wishes, not the Quran.
Peace.
Pierre
Peace Noon,
Quote from: Noon de Plume on September 06, 2010, 08:45:27 PMI have a question pertaining to 89:2 and the exact meaning:
19:10 ثلاث three ليال nights
69:7 سبع seven ليال nights وثمانية and eight ايام days
89:2 وليال and? عشر ten
What is the difference when number is written after vs. before the phrase ? ten nights or can it mean tenth night?
For sure it doesn't mean tenth night. I don't think that the order makes much difference. For example, see how in the case of the seven heavens the order is reversed in 17:44 and is given as السَّمَاوَاتُ السَّبْعُ .
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother WayFinder,
Quote from: WayFinder on September 06, 2010, 10:51:52 PMThank you for the clarification and it is much appreciated. Since so much corruption has already occurred in the system... It would be no wonder at all if the ramadan as well had been a target in the past and therefore been distorted.. We should be striving and trying to uncover the truth in all these through our studies... May God enlighten us with knowledge.
As for the verses, I have no problem with the 2 verses which were prior to the verse above... The verse above seems to be talking about another context(hence hajj/umrah) which i have yet to understand. And the verse also seems to be a conditional statement which I have highlighted in blue.. and therefore, it does not seem to be a general rule. I would like to get your view on it.
Moreover, why at least 3 terms has been used in relation to the moon which is qamar, hilal/ahillah/shahr... what is your view on this?
The conditional statement is for those whose family is not attending the inviolable institution of obedience. For those, the "hagg"/feast may only be 3 days. This implies that for those whose family is attending the inviolable institution of obedience (al-masjid al-haram), it is 10 days. This is in line with what we know of the meaning of "few" (ma'doodat) as being 3-10. So the completion of a few is 10. The god clarifies this by saying that the ten is "complete".
Qamar > Moon
Hilal > Crescent (waning or waxing)
Shahr > Full moon
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Noon,
Quote from: Noon de Plume on September 07, 2010, 01:29:49 AMWhat is this then?
84:18 والقمر and the moon اذا when اتسق it evened/full
Had being full been part of the inherent meaning of "qamar" then it wouldn't make sense to use the verb "itasaq" (became even/symmetric) and an adjective would have been more logical.
So "qamar" is simply "moon". Reading from 84:16 to 84:18 those passages clearly describe the process by which to observe the full-moon:
1. See the afterglow of sunset (look in the direction of the afterglow of sunset).
2. See the night enshrowding (Turn 180 degrees and look in the opposite direction from where the darkness is spreading).
3. See the symmetric full-moon. (The full moon will appear from that precise direction very shortly).
This is how very simply and precisely we can determine for sure the full-moon. On the other hand, the not so full moon that came the previous day will appear before sunset so the sun will be visible and not the afterglow.
Peace,
Ayman
Thanks brother Ayman for sharing your views with us.. Can you give me a lead where I can read more on the 'the inviolable institution of obedience (al-masjid al-haram)' please.
Peace
Peace Ayisha,
Quote from: Ayisha on September 08, 2010, 06:10:55 AMPeace all, please bear with me as I try to put this across in word!
I have something new about this that I am a bit confused about. I was having a discussion at 5am this morning with hubby about Quran, hadith, Ramadan and stuff, which is a great thing as he normally ends up not quite refusing to listen but refusing to go out of his depth and 'threatening' to get the sheikh to talk to me :-\
The sheikh is spending the last 10 nights of ramadan in the mosque in prayer, so I have to wait. This leads on to when the night of decree is. Hubby recited something and in this was a word that sounded like shahr(month) but isnt. In my questioning he then tells me other words that sound like shahr to my ears like hair and mustache and this other word he said means - from what I can gather from his actions- 'blinding sun'. This reminded me of what I have read on 'scorching heat'. What he tried to explain - bearing in mind we are in Egypt and blinding sun is there all the time - and what I could gather is that after this night the sun rise is not as blinding sun as every other day is, possibly due to the peaceful stuff that's happened in the night? :-\ and thats how they know this night has happened, not that its going to happen, hence the prayer every night for the last 10 nights.
I have just got up and got on corpus Quran and I can't find this word in sura 97 ???
Any ideas anyone? ???
I think that your husband was referring to some Hadiths which claim that the sun doesn't have any ray (sho'a') after the night of measure. Here is the text of one of those Hadiths:
أبي بن كعب رضي الله عنه قال : أخبرنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( أنها تطلع يومئذ ٍ لا شعاع لها ) -رواه مسلم
This is all part of the Sunni nonsensical guessing games since their Sheiks are clueless about this most important night and are completely unaware of it. It is clear from 97:2 that the good and peace of this night only come with awareness of it:
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ
97:2. And what will make you aware what the night of power is.The following is an article in Arabic on this subject:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
People can never be aware of this night using Hadiths or numerology and it will pass like any other night for them. It is amazingly fitting that the awarness of this night is only possible with a careful study of the signs of the great reading that was sent down in it.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2010, 01:02:58 PM
Peace Ayisha,
I think that your husband was referring to some Hadiths which claim that the sun doesn't have any ray (sho'a') after the night of measure. Here is the text of one of those Hadiths:
أبي بن كعب رضي الله عنه قال : أخبرنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( أنها تطلع يومئذ ٍ لا شعاع لها ) -رواه مسلم
This is all part of the Sunni nonsensical guessing games since their Sheiks are clueless about this most important night and are completely unaware of it. It is clear from 97:2 that the good and peace of this night only come with awareness of it:
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ
97:2. And what will make you aware what the night of power is.
The following is an article in Arabic on this subject:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
People can never be aware of this night using Hadiths or numerology and it will pass like any other night for them. It is amazingly fitting that the awarness of this night is only possible with a careful study of the signs of the great reading that was sent down in it.
Peace,
Ayman
yes you're right Ayman, just got him to look at the verse and then the hadith (not knowing it was hadith) and he said it was there. Thank you :peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2010, 01:51:42 PM
Peace brother WayFinder,
Yes. It is 10 days. The "scorching full-moon" (shahr ramadan) is simply a marker. The verb "shahed" (witnessed) in 2:185 is perfect past tense. It is impossible to witness a 30 day period first and then go back in time and fast it.
We are told to fast for a few days in 2:183 (few is 3 to 10). We are then told to complete the count in 2:185 (completing 3 to 10 is reaching 10). See below (I am not sure if you know Arabic. Please let me know if you would like a translation):
Peace,
Ayman
Out of ego and lack of knowledge, Ayman is trying to reinvent the meaning of words.
"Ramadan" is the month of Ramadan (30 days), the plural of "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, the maximum number of days of fasting. Quote 660
Apprintice 669 your observation is absolutely correct.
The sentence is
فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ Just seeing the verb in past tense he seems to have jumped to that conclusion. He does not seem to know what a conditional sentence means and how is it structured. And he also fails to see the imperative particle "Laam" and the jussive mood of the verb and the object pronoun attached to it which is masculine, singular, third person referring to the Month Ramzaan.
Peace Ayisha,
Quote from: Ayisha on September 08, 2010, 01:12:37 PMyes you're right Ayman, just got him to look at the verse and then the hadith (not knowing it was hadith) and he said it was there. Thank you :peace:
There was a big error with the translation I provided. Here is the correction:
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ
97:2. And what will make you aware what the night of measure is.Sorry about this.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2010, 04:48:34 PM
Peace Ayisha,
There was a big error with the translation I provided. Here is the correction:
وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ
97:2. And what will make you aware what the night of measure is.
Sorry about this.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
A translation to English of the hadith you quoted would be great, when you have time, please ;D :peace:
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 08, 2010, 10:43:46 AMYes, it is exactly what I am saying: The new "month" appears with the new "moon". It is the same. God said there are 12 months, it simply means 12 new "moons" with their phases, until the new moon reappears.
You are inventing your own language. What you are saying is baseless logically and linguistically. There is no dictionary that says that the word "shahr" means "new moon". Please show the word in the great reading that you are translating as "new moon".
Quote from: 6619 on September 08, 2010, 10:43:46 AMIt is perfectly clear in the document that proves incontrovertibly the Night of Decree, that "Moon" and "Month" connect in the same way with the 27th night. (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm (http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdecree.htm), read part 2).
Also getting to what you claim is a man made calendar, when Omar started counted years from the Hijri, in fact he did not change anything to the lunar calendar which has been in existence since the sun, planet earth and the moon form a system.
9:36 The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
People who have eyes to see know full well that the lunar calendar is not man made: God established it. It is engraved in Quran forever.
People who make up lies on this website have in reality no faith, no fear in God. They are blind and follow their own wishes, not the Quran.
Your translation is false and you are confusing the lunar cycle and the Hijri Calendar. Those are two different things. It is an indisputable reality that when your so-called Ramadan occurs is based on when Sha'ban occured and so on. It is an indisputable fact that if Sha'aban and Ramadan are transposed or Safar started a month earlier then you would be fasting what you now call Sha'aban. Whether they were made up by Umar or anyone else, the lunar and solar cycles have nothing to do with those 100% arbitrary and manmade decisions.
There is absolutely nothing in the sun, planet earth and moon that say that your so called Ramadan (and thus the 27th of it) has to occur on a particular day. Your only basis for this is the Hijri calendar and not the sun, planet earth and the moon.
Therefore if you are on a cruise ship and the ship sinks and you become unconcious and wake up on a deserted island and lose track of the Hijri calendar, you will never in a thousand years know your so-called Ramadan based on the lunar and solar cycles. You can have everything and all technlogy at your disposal and still you will not know when is your Ramadan and your falsehood will be lost forever. The only thing that will provide you that info is if a satellite phone washed on shore and you contact a Sunni friend to ask him about what day in the Hijri calendar it is today. This example demonstrates the indisputable reality that the Hijri calendar is 100% arbitrary and manmade and is not based on the lunar or solar cycles. Why 19ers, who claim to be all mathematical and scientific, are the least able to grasp simple indisputable physical scientific realities?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Mazhar on September 08, 2010, 02:22:32 PMOut of ego and lack of knowledge, Ayman is trying to reinvent the meaning of words.
"Ramadan" is the month of Ramadan (30 days), the plural of "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, the maximum number of days of fasting. Quote 660
You are a liar and a fraud who deliberately plays numerology games like 19ers. The plural form occurs 27 times.
Also, it is an indisputable fact that your so-called Ramadan is a 100% arbitrary and manmade timing that has nothing to do with the god's system and reality. What it really depends on are arbitrary manmade decisions about the order of the months and when month 1, year 1 was invented.
Quote from: Mazhar on September 08, 2010, 02:22:32 PMApprintice 669 your observation is absolutely correct.
The sentence is
فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
Just seeing the verb in past tense he seems to have jumped to that conclusion. He does not seem to know what a conditional sentence means and how is it structured. And he also fails to see the imperative particle "Laam" and the jussive mood of the verb and the object pronoun attached to it which is masculine, singular, third person referring to the Month Ramzaan.
The usage of the past tense verb "witnessed" in 2:185 creates two insurmountable logical problems for sectarians:
1. In Arabic the usage of the past tense for witnessed and then the present tense for "fast" indicates the sequence of events. In other words, one has to witness first and then fast. Of course, it is a physical impossibility to first witness a 30 day period and then go back in time and fast it.
2. Second, how can one witness "time"? it is impossible and nonsensical. (http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.185c.gif)
Mazhar tried to overcome the first logical problem by changing the tense from past to present. However, a conditional in Arabic doesn't change the sequence of events and the tense of any verb from past to present as he did in his translation (here it is copied from his website):
Therefore anyone from amongst you who witnesses this month then he should fast therein. (Grand Qur'aan is a Statement of Fact, excludes those living but could be in such state as coma :rotfl: )When there is no required sequence of events and the first event doesn't have to be done first before the next clause then there is nothing wrong in Arabic with using the present tense with the conditional as we can see in 2:229, for example (again from Mazhar's website):
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.229p.gif)
And whoever transgresses the limits set by Allah, for this reason they are the people who are evil-doers/distorters/creators of imbalances/disorders/over stepping. [2:229]Next Mazhar tries to go around the logical absurdity of interpreting "shahr" to mean a 30 day period by interpreting "shahid" (witnessed) to mean "lived" or "was present". However, by doing so he created a third logical absurdity for himself. Since everyone is living or is present, then his nonsense now renders the conditional pointless. This is after his empty ranting about how knowing what the conditional means and how is it structured is so important. According to him, the conditional is present
to exclude those in a coma!! :rotfl: Sorry I don't usually use those kind of smileys but this is too comical. But seriously, as everyone can see, by distorting the great reading to hypocritically justify his sectarian preconceptions Mazhar exposes himself as he slides down a slippery slope of absurdities.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2010, 10:15:38 PM
The usage of the past tense verb "witnessed" in 2:185 creates two insurmountable logical problems for sectarians:
1. In Arabic the usage of the past tense for witnessed and then the present tense for "fast" indicates the sequence of events. In other words, one has to witness first and then fast. Of course, it is a physical impossibility to first witness a 30 day period and then go back in time and fast it.
2. Second, how can one witness "time"? it is impossible and nonsensical.
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.185c.gif)
Mazhar tried to overcome the first logical problem by changing the tense from past to present. However, a conditional in Arabic doesn't change the sequence of events and the tense of any verb from past to present as he did in his translation (here it is copied from his website):
Therefore anyone from amongst you who witnesses this month then he should fast therein. (Grand Qur'aan is a Statement of Fact, excludes those living but could be in such state as coma :rotfl: )
When there is no required sequence of events and the first event doesn't have to be done first before the next clause then there is nothing wrong in Arabic with using the present tense with the conditional as we can see in 2:229, for example (again from Mazhar's website):
(http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.229p.gif)
And whoever transgresses the limits set by Allah, for this reason they are the people who are evil-doers/distorters/creators of imbalances/disorders/over stepping. [2:229]
Next Mazhar tries to go around the logical absurdity of interpreting "shahr" to mean a 30 day period by interpreting "shahid" (witnessed) to mean "lived" or "was present". However, by doing so he created a third logical absurdity for himself. Since everyone is living or is present, then his nonsense now renders the conditional pointless. This is after his empty ranting about how knowing what the conditional means and how is it structured is so important. According to him, the conditional is present to exclude those in a coma!! :rotfl: Sorry I don't usually use those kind of smileys but this is too comical. But seriously, as everyone can see, by distorting the great reading to hypocritically justify his sectarian preconceptions Mazhar exposes himself as he slides down a slippery slope of absurdities.
Peace,
Ayman
I am happy Aymen, instead of keeping silent like Edip after exposure of stupidity, you keep further exposing and confirming yourself to be totally a derailed person, and a person absolutely non conversant what to say of delicacies and nicities even with basics of Arabic.
002.185
YUSUFALI: Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
PICKTHAL: The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.
SHAKIR: The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
The month gets a name with the appearance of first moon. A particular month becomes known and stands witnessed by a person the moment the first moon appears, and not after lapse of 29/30 days that he comes to know about that month. Immediately on sight of first moon, one finds/witnesses the month. And except for stupids everyone knows that the Lunar month begins immediately after the sunset of previous month and appearance of first moon, and fast begins after passing of that night from dawn.
Seems the keyword is 'shahida' and all translator has translated it in the way they understand it with their additional thought in brackets. An analysis of this word from the quranic perspective should reveal crucial information.
Salaam Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2010, 08:31:13 PM
Peace Pierre,
You are inventing your own language. What you are saying is baseless logically and linguistically. There is no dictionary that says that the word "shahr" means "new moon". Please show the word in the great reading that you are translating as "new moon".
Your translation is false and you are confusing the lunar cycle and the Hijri Calendar. Those are two different things. It is an indisputable reality that when your so-called Ramadan occurs is based on when Sha'ban occured and so on. It is an indisputable fact that if Sha'aban and Ramadan are transposed or Safar started a month earlier then you would be fasting what you now call Sha'aban. Whether they were made up by Umar or anyone else, the lunar and solar cycles have nothing to do with those 100% arbitrary and manmade decisions.
There is absolutely nothing in the sun, planet earth and moon that say that your so called Ramadan (and thus the 27th of it) has to occur on a particular day. Your only basis for this is the Hijri calendar and not the sun, planet earth and the moon. Therefore if you are on a cruise ship and the ship sinks and you become unconcious and wake up on a deserted island and lose track of the Hijri calendar, you will never in a thousand years know your so-called Ramadan based on the lunar and solar cycles. You can have everything and all technlogy at your disposal and still you will not know when is your Ramadan and your falsehood will be lost forever. The only thing that will provide you that info is if a satellite phone washed on shore and you contact a Sunni friend to ask him about what day in the Hijri calendar it is today. This example demonstrates the indisputable reality that the Hijri calendar is 100% arbitrary and manmade and is not based on the lunar or solar cycles. Why 19ers, who claim to be all mathematical and scientific, are the least able to grasp simple indisputable physical scientific realities?
You are a liar and a fraud who deliberately plays numerology games like 19ers. The plural form occurs 27 times.
Also, it is an indisputable fact that your so-called Ramadan is a 100% arbitrary and manmade timing that has nothing to do with the god's system and reality. What it really depends on are arbitrary manmade decisions about the order of the months and when month 1, year 1 was invented.
Peace,
Ayman
1. First of all, and wether you like it or not, there are 12 months in God's system:
9:36 The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been
GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
Wether you like it or not there are twelve words "month" in Quran. Indisputable fact. At least admit that.
2. You are no only a liar, but an ignorant: The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times:
AYYAM/YAWMAYN يومين/أيام (Days) occurs 30 times.
2:80 2:184 2:184 2:185 2:196 2:203 2:203 3:24 3:41 3:140 5:89 7:54 10:3 10:102 11:7 11:65 14:5 22:28 25:59 32:4 34:18 41:9 41:10 41:12 41:16 45:14 50:38 57:4 69:7 69:24.
And yes Ayman, you are stuck: It is an indisputable
FACT :yes. Check it instead of proclaiming lies !!! Will you have the courage to admit that you were dead wrong or will you try to talk about something else so people forget ? But I know Ayman: 30 days, just another coincidence.
Why 30 days? because it symbolizes the maximum number of days in a lunar month, and a lot more, but not now: you will learn the rest soon enough, God willing.
And, by the way, "day" occurs 365 times, and that also Ayman, is an undisputable fact. Only the ignorants will choose to be blind. Quran acknowledges in reality both lunar and solar calendar. Again you will have to confront the miracle of the Quran about that, but later, God willing.
YAWM يوم (Day, 10,6,40) occurs 365 times!
1:4 2:8 2:48 2:62 2:85 2:113 2:123 2:126 2:174 2:177 2:212 2:228 2:232 2:249 2:254 2:259 2:259 2:264 2:281 3:9 3:25 3:30 3:55 3:77 3:106 3:114 3:155 3:161 3:166 3:180 3:185 3:194 4:38 4:39 4:59 4:87 4:109 4:136 4:141 4:159 4:162 5:3 5:3 5:5 5:14 5:36 5:64 5:69 5:109 5:119 6:12 6:15 6:22 6:73 6:73 6:93 6:128 6:141 6:158 7:14 7:32 7:51 7:53 7:59 7:163 7:163 7:167 7:172 8:41 8:41 8:48 9:3 9:18 9:19 9:25 9:29 9:35 9:36 9:44 9:45 9:77 9:99 9:108 10:15 10:28 10:45 10:60 10:92 10:93 11:3 11:8 11:26 11:43 11:60 11:77 11:84 11:98 11:99 11:103 11:103 11:105 12:54 12:92 14:18 14:31 14:41 14:42 14:44 14:48 15:35 15:36 15:38 16:25 16:27 16:27 16:63 16:80 16:80 16:84 16:89 16:92 16:111 16:124 17:13 17:14 17:52 17:58 17:62 17:71 17:97 18:19 18:19 18:47 18:52 18:105 19:15 19:15 19:15 19:26 19:33 19:33 19:33 19:37 19:38 19:38 19:39 19:85 19:95 20:59 20:64 20:100 20:101 20:102 20:104 20:124 20:126 21:47 21:104 22:2 22:9 22:17 22:47 22:55 22:69 23:16 23:65 23:100 23:111 23:113 23:113 24:2 24:24 24:37 24:64 25:14 25:17 25:22 25:25 25:26 25:27 25:69 26:38 26:82 26:87 26:88 26:135 26:155 26:156 26:189 26:189 27:83 27:87 28:41 28:42 28:61 28:62 28:65 28:71 28:72 28:74 29:13 29:25 29:36 29:55 30:12 30:14 30:43 30:55 30:56 30:56 31:33 32:5 32:25 32:29 33:21 33:44 33:66 34:30 34:40 34:42 35:14 36:54 36:55 36:59 36:64 36:65 37:20 37:21 37:26 37:144 38:16 38:26 38:53 38:78 38:79 38:81 39:13 39:15 39:24 39:31 39:47 39:60 39:67 40:15 40:16 40:16 40:17 40:17 40:18 40:27 40:29 40:30 40:32 40:33 40:46 40:49 40:51 40:52 41:19 41:40 41:47 42:7 42:45 42:47 43:39 43:65 43:68 44:10 44:16 44:40 44:41 45:17 45:26 45:27 45:28 45:34 45:35 46:5 46:20 46:20 46:21 46:34 46:35 50:20 50:22 50:30 50:34 50:41 50:42 50:42 50:44 51:12 51:13 52:9 52:13 52:46 54:6 54:8 54:19 54:48 55:29 56:50 56:56 57:12 57:12 57:13 57:15 58:6 58:7 58:18 58:22 60:3 60:6 62:9 64:9 64:9 64:9 65:2 66:7 66:8 68:24 68:39 68:42 69:35 70:4 70:8 70:26 70:43 70:44 73:14 73:17 74:9 74:46 75:1 75:6 76:7 76:10 76:11 76:27 77:12 77:13 77:14 77:35 77:38 78:17 78:18 78:38 78:39 78:40 79:6 79:35 79:46 80:34 82:15 82:17 82:18 82:19 83:5 83:6 83:11 83:34 85:2 86:9 90:14 101:4
3. No Ayman, I am not reinventing the Arabic language like you are to mislead people and yourself:
2:185 Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book.
Those of you who witnessed this month (the new moon appeared, perfect tense, the event belongs now to the past) shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar of 12 months, each month lasting 30 days maximum (30 days, ring a bell ?) and the new month starts when we witness the new moon in the sky:
Those of you who witnessed this month are the ones who saw the new moon, it is only illogical for people like you who
choose to be blind; it has been working the same way for millions of years. You are just playing on words to try to save face, but you are just a liar.
4. The Hijri calendar is indexed on the same lunar calendar of 12 months that Muhammad and the prophets experienced. The Hijri calendar is simply a way to count the number of years in the lunar system of 12 months decreed by God. What kind of game are you playing ? Your conspiracy theories that someone changed everything are pure lies; Human beings have been very good at preserving the lunar calendar. Only people like you would like to change and corrupt everything.
Peace.
Pierre
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PM
Salaam Ayman,
1. First of all, and wether you like it or not, there are 12 months in God's system:
9:36 The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
Wether you like it or not there are twelve words "month" in Quran. Indisputable fact. At least admit that.
2. You are no only a liar, but an ignorant: The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times:
AYYAM/YAWMAYN يومين/أيام (Days) occurs 30 times.
2:80 2:184 2:184 2:185 2:196 2:203 2:203 3:24 3:41 3:140 5:89 7:54 10:3 10:102 11:7 11:65 14:5 22:28 25:59 32:4 34:18 41:9 41:10 41:12 41:16 45:14 50:38 57:4 69:7 69:24.
And yes Ayman, you are stuck: It is an indisputable FACT :yes. Check it instead of proclaiming lies !!! Will you have the courage to admit that you were dead wrong or will you try to talk about something else so people forget ? But I know Ayman: 30 days, just another coincidence.
Why 30 days? because it symbolizes the maximum number of days in a lunar month, and a lot more, but not now: you will learn the rest soon enough, God willing.
And, by the way, "day" occurs 365 times, and that also Ayman, is an undisputable fact. Only the ignorants will choose to be blind. Quran acknowledges in reality both lunar and solar calendar. Again you will have to confront the miracle of the Quran about that, but later, God willing.
YAWM يوم (Day, 10,6,40) occurs 365 times!
1:4 2:8 2:48 2:62 2:85 2:113 2:123 2:126 2:174 2:177 2:212 2:228 2:232 2:249 2:254 2:259 2:259 2:264 2:281 3:9 3:25 3:30 3:55 3:77 3:106 3:114 3:155 3:161 3:166 3:180 3:185 3:194 4:38 4:39 4:59 4:87 4:109 4:136 4:141 4:159 4:162 5:3 5:3 5:5 5:14 5:36 5:64 5:69 5:109 5:119 6:12 6:15 6:22 6:73 6:73 6:93 6:128 6:141 6:158 7:14 7:32 7:51 7:53 7:59 7:163 7:163 7:167 7:172 8:41 8:41 8:48 9:3 9:18 9:19 9:25 9:29 9:35 9:36 9:44 9:45 9:77 9:99 9:108 10:15 10:28 10:45 10:60 10:92 10:93 11:3 11:8 11:26 11:43 11:60 11:77 11:84 11:98 11:99 11:103 11:103 11:105 12:54 12:92 14:18 14:31 14:41 14:42 14:44 14:48 15:35 15:36 15:38 16:25 16:27 16:27 16:63 16:80 16:80 16:84 16:89 16:92 16:111 16:124 17:13 17:14 17:52 17:58 17:62 17:71 17:97 18:19 18:19 18:47 18:52 18:105 19:15 19:15 19:15 19:26 19:33 19:33 19:33 19:37 19:38 19:38 19:39 19:85 19:95 20:59 20:64 20:100 20:101 20:102 20:104 20:124 20:126 21:47 21:104 22:2 22:9 22:17 22:47 22:55 22:69 23:16 23:65 23:100 23:111 23:113 23:113 24:2 24:24 24:37 24:64 25:14 25:17 25:22 25:25 25:26 25:27 25:69 26:38 26:82 26:87 26:88 26:135 26:155 26:156 26:189 26:189 27:83 27:87 28:41 28:42 28:61 28:62 28:65 28:71 28:72 28:74 29:13 29:25 29:36 29:55 30:12 30:14 30:43 30:55 30:56 30:56 31:33 32:5 32:25 32:29 33:21 33:44 33:66 34:30 34:40 34:42 35:14 36:54 36:55 36:59 36:64 36:65 37:20 37:21 37:26 37:144 38:16 38:26 38:53 38:78 38:79 38:81 39:13 39:15 39:24 39:31 39:47 39:60 39:67 40:15 40:16 40:16 40:17 40:17 40:18 40:27 40:29 40:30 40:32 40:33 40:46 40:49 40:51 40:52 41:19 41:40 41:47 42:7 42:45 42:47 43:39 43:65 43:68 44:10 44:16 44:40 44:41 45:17 45:26 45:27 45:28 45:34 45:35 46:5 46:20 46:20 46:21 46:34 46:35 50:20 50:22 50:30 50:34 50:41 50:42 50:42 50:44 51:12 51:13 52:9 52:13 52:46 54:6 54:8 54:19 54:48 55:29 56:50 56:56 57:12 57:12 57:13 57:15 58:6 58:7 58:18 58:22 60:3 60:6 62:9 64:9 64:9 64:9 65:2 66:7 66:8 68:24 68:39 68:42 69:35 70:4 70:8 70:26 70:43 70:44 73:14 73:17 74:9 74:46 75:1 75:6 76:7 76:10 76:11 76:27 77:12 77:13 77:14 77:35 77:38 78:17 78:18 78:38 78:39 78:40 79:6 79:35 79:46 80:34 82:15 82:17 82:18 82:19 83:5 83:6 83:11 83:34 85:2 86:9 90:14 101:4
3. No Ayman, I am not reinventing the Arabic language like you are to mislead people and yourself:
2:185 Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witnessed this month (the new moon appeared, perfect tense, the event belongs now to the past) shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar of 12 months, each month lasting 30 days maximum (30 days, ring a bell ?) and the new month starts when we witness the new moon in the sky: Those of you who witnessed this month are the ones who saw the new moon, it is only illogical for people like you who choose to be blind; it has been working the same way for millions of years. You are just playing on words to try to save face, but you are just a liar.
4. The Hijri calendar is indexed on the same lunar calendar of 12 months that Muhammad and the prophets experienced. The Hijri calendar is simply a way to count the number of years in the lunar system of 12 months decreed by God. What kind of game are you playing ? Your conspiracy theories that someone changed everything are pure lies; Human beings have been very good at preserving the lunar calendar. Only people like you would like to change and corrupt everything.
Peace.
Pierre
Sorry bro for intruption then why the so called Islamic callender is of 29 and 30 days? why all the months not lasting 30 days :hmm
Quote2. You are no only a liar, but an ignorant: The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times:
AYYAM/YAWMAYN يومين/أيام (Days) occurs 30 times.
2:80 2:184 2:184 2:185 2:196 2:203 2:203 3:24 3:41 3:140 5:89 7:54 10:3 10:102 11:7 11:65 14:5 22:28 25:59 32:4 34:18 41:9 41:10 41:12 41:16 45:14 50:38 57:4 69:7 69:24.
Pl permit me for a little clarification. In English يومين may be considered/translated as plural but in Arabic it is not plural. It is "Dual". "two days".
Quote from: Mazhar on September 09, 2010, 12:18:36 PMI am happy Aymen, instead of keeping silent like Edip after exposure of stupidity, you keep further exposing and confirming yourself to be totally a derailed person, and a person absolutely non conversant what to say of delicacies and nicities even with basics of Arabic.
Listen Mazhar, since I am stupid and you are so smart then show us the other occurrences of "shahd" where it means "present" as the transaltions that you gave claim but excludes those living but could be in such state as coma as you claim. For example, when the god says that "he shahd that there is no god except him" does this mean that "he is present and not in a coma"?? When you say that someone "shahd fi alma7kama" does it mean the he was present and not in a coma in court?? Just bring ONE example from the great reading or even from any source where "shahd" means "present and not in a coma" according to your nonsense. Show us how smart you really are. :)
Quote from: Mazhar on September 09, 2010, 12:18:36 PMThe month gets a name with the appearance of first moon. A particular month becomes known and stands witnessed by a person the moment the first moon appears, and not after lapse of 29/30 days that he comes to know about that month. Immediately on sight of first moon, one finds/witnesses the month. And except for stupids everyone knows that the Lunar month begins immediately after the sunset of previous month and appearance of first moon, and fast begins after passing of that night from dawn.
Since you are not stupid and are abviously very smart tell us what would you name that new moon when you wake up from a coma on a deserted island? :)
Peace on the smart ones,
Ayman
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PM1. First of all, and wether you like it or not, there are 12 months in God's system:
I like it :) . Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PM2. You are no only a liar, but an ignorant: The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times:
AYYAM/YAWMAYN يومين/أيام (Days) occurs 30 times.
2:80 2:184 2:184 2:185 2:196 2:203 2:203 3:24 3:41 3:140 5:89 7:54 10:3 10:102 11:7 11:65 14:5 22:28 25:59 32:4 34:18 41:9 41:10 41:12 41:16 45:14 50:38 57:4 69:7 69:24.
And yes Ayman, you are stuck: It is an indisputable FACT :yes. Check it instead of proclaiming lies !!! Will you have the courage to admit that you were dead wrong or will you try to talk about something else so people forget ? But I know Ayman: 30 days, just another coincidence.
Not knowing the difference between plural and dual and arbitrarily adjusting the count is not a coincidence but it is typical numerology tricks. :)
So according to you the month is 30 days and there are 12 months so we should have 30x12 = 360 days.
Unfortunately here is what you say next:
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PMWhy 30 days? because it symbolizes the maximum number of days in a lunar month, and a lot more, but not now: you will learn the rest soon enough, God willing.
And, by the way, "day" occurs 365 times, and that also Ayman, is an undisputable fact. Only the ignorants will choose to be blind. Quran acknowledges in reality both lunar and solar calendar.
Can you multiply? 30x12 = 360, not 365 and certainly not 354. So according to your logic the god neither acknowledges the solar or the lunar calendars.
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PMAgain you will have to confront the miracle of the Quran about that, but later, God willing.
YAWM يوم (Day, 10,6,40) occurs 365 times!
There are actually 475 occurrences of the various forms of day. Please list all the forms you are arbitrarily excluding and those you are arbitrarily including to reach 365.
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PM3. No Ayman, I am not reinventing the Arabic language like you are to mislead people and yourself:
The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar of 12 months, each month lasting 30 days maximum (30 days, ring a bell ?)
12x30 =360, ring a bell?
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PMand the new month starts when we witness the new moon in the sky:
Those of you who witnessed this month are the ones who saw the new moon, it is only illogical for people like you who choose to be blind; it has been working the same way for millions of years. You are just playing on words to try to save face, but you are just a liar.
If it has been working like this for millions of years long before humans and I am blind and you are so insightful and your Ramadan is not manmade and arbitrary then you should be able to easily tell us how to find your Ramadan when you are stranded with your buddy Mazhar on a deserted island with no means to contact Sunnis. :)
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PM
4. The Hijri calendar is indexed on the same lunar calendar of 12 months that Muhammad and the prophets experienced. The Hijri calendar is simply a way to count the number of years in the lunar system of 12 months decreed by God. What kind of game are you playing ?
So you are saying that the god created the heavens and the earth on Friday, Muharam 1, year 1!
If you are so smart and I am playing games then tell us how you would find your Ramadan on your deserted island by simply counting the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god.
Also, as an FIY, none of the previous people (prophets or otherwise) heard of your Hijri calendar or its months. They used different calendars with different months and didn't have a month called Ramadan.
Quote from: 6619 on September 09, 2010, 12:49:19 PMYour conspiracy theories that someone changed everything are pure lies; Human beings have been very good at preserving the lunar calendar. Only people like you would like to change and corrupt everything.
Yes. It is a conspiracy that if you wake up on a deserted island and have all the technology in the world to count the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god then you will never find your false Ramadan again. You can blame me since I conspired with others to alter reality and the cycles of the moon and the sun decreed by the god and prevent you from ever finding your Ramadan without calling a Sunni buddy. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother WayFinder,
Quote from: WayFinder on September 09, 2010, 12:29:22 PMSeems the keyword is 'shahida' and all translator has translated it in the way they understand it with their additional thought in brackets. An analysis of this word from the quranic perspective should reveal crucial information.
One thing is for sure. In no other occurrence in the great reading or even in regular Arabic language the word "shahida" can be taken to mean "present at home" or "present/living and not in a coma" as per our friend Mazhar.
Modern translators and Mazhar had to change the meaning to get around the logical impossibility of first witnessing 30/29 days and then going back in time and fasting them.
On the other hand, traditionalists have long acknowledged that "shahr" cannot be a time period but is an event that marks the beginning of the period. This is why traditionalists insist on witnessing the new waxing crescent event and not using calculations. However, the "waxing crescent" is not a valid meaning for "shahr". In fact, the waxing crescent is never mentioned in the great reading. Everyone who knows Arabic knows that the words "hilal/ahila" mean both waxing and waning crescents and there are 24 of these (not 12) in a 12 month lunar cycle. This is why Pierre is clueless about the linguistic issues and can't address them.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Afridi,
Quote from: afridi220 on September 09, 2010, 12:54:56 PM
Sorry bro for intruption then why the so called Islamic callender is of 29 and 30 days? why all the months not lasting 30 days :hmm
It is like in sura 97. The sura has 30 words symbolizing the maximum number of days in a lunar months. The 27th word in sura 97 is the pronoun "hiya" which refers to the "night of Decree". Some months have 29 days, some have 30 days, depending on when the new moon occurs. Please read my answer to Ayman I will say more about that.
Quote"shahd" means "present and not in a coma" according to your nonsense.
For being a "witness" or "bearing witness" one has either to be present on the occasion/point in time and/or he is to be the one who has the knowledge of that. A person in coma is present when any month begins but does not have the knowledge so he is not witnessing anything despite being existing at that point in time. A lunatic does see appearance of a moon but he is not considered to have witnessed it.
QuoteQuote from: Mazhar on Yesterday at 05:18:36 PM
The month gets a name with the appearance of first moon. A particular month becomes known and stands witnessed by a person the moment the first moon appears, and not after lapse of 29/30 days that he comes to know about that month. Immediately on sight of first moon, one finds/witnesses the month. And except for stupids everyone knows that the Lunar month begins immediately after the sunset of previous month and appearance of first moon, and fast begins after passing of that night from dawn.
QuoteSince you are not stupid and are abviously very smart tell us what would you name that new moon when you wake up from a coma on a deserted island? Aymen
No one needs to prove a stupid a stupid. Stupids keep giving evidence to this effect at their own.
Salaam Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 10, 2010, 08:53:28 AM
Peace Pierre,
I like it :) . Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
Not knowing the difference between plural and dual and arbitrarily adjusting the count is not a coincidence but it is typical numerology tricks. :)
So according to you the month is 30 days and there are 12 months so we should have 30x12 = 360 days.
Unfortunately here is what you say next:
Can you multiply? 30x12 = 360, not 365 and certainly not 354. So according to your logic the god neither acknowledges the solar or the lunar calendars.
There are actually 475 occurrences of the various forms of day. Please list all the forms you are arbitrarily excluding and those you are arbitrarily including to reach 365.
12x30 =360, ring a bell?
If it has been working like this for millions of years long before humans and I am blind and you are so insightful and your Ramadan is not manmade and arbitrary then you should be able to easily tell us how to find your Ramadan when you are stranded with your buddy Mazhar on a deserted island with no means to contact Sunnis. :)
So you are saying that the god created the heavens and the earth on Friday, Muharam 1, year 1!
If you are so smart and I am playing games then tell us how you would find your Ramadan on your deserted island by simply counting the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god.
Also, as an FIY, none of the previous people (prophets or otherwise) heard of your Hijri calendar or its months. They used different calendars with different months and didn't have a month called Ramadan.
Yes. It is a conspiracy that if you wake up on a deserted island and have all the technology in the world to count the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god then you will never find your false Ramadan again. You can blame me since I conspired with others to alter reality and the cycles of the moon and the sun decreed by the god and prevent you from ever finding your Ramadan without calling a Sunni buddy. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman you are not a sincere person: There are two forms of plural in Arabic: Dual and "more than three".
If you deny this it is not even worth talking with you.
Singular = 1
Plural = 2 or more.
1 day.
2 days
3 days
4 days
Ayman, do you see the little "
s" starting from "2 days", it means it is a plural. This is why dual and "more than three" type of plural are found 30 times in Quran, Got that ? ::)
Either you are really stupid if you do not admit this, or really your ego is sooo big that you will deny simply for the sake of denying and try to save face (unfortunately I am afraid that it is your ego that makes you deny simple things like that ).
Anyways Ayman, it is an indisputable fact that there are 30 "days" in Quran, and you got burned. 30 "days" is the maximum number of "days" in the lunar calendar of 12 months decreed by God. It means more but I will keep it simple here.
As for the forms of "day" you have been told in a number of previous debates that there is a peculiar way of counting words in the Quran.
The reason why you deny it is that you refuse to see God's miracle of the Quran like 365 x "day".
The peculiar form of counting singular forms is.... singular generic forms without pronouns attached or else, simply the singular form.
When you open your mind to this then the miracle of 19 and many others like 365 "day" become a reality; they alll click together at the same time which proves their veracity. In other words it is miracle reserved for people who are sincere, on the other hand, insincere people with "closed minds" are forbidden from seeing the miracles. A veil separates them from the believers.
How do I know Ramadan is the 9th month out of 12?
1. God tells us there are 12 months (9:36).
2. God tells us that Ramadan is the month Quran was revealed (2:185)
3. Sura 97 tells us that Quran was revealed during the "Night of Decree", therefore the Night of Decree is part of the month of ramadan.
4. There are 30 words in sura 97, an allegory for the maximum number of days in Ramadan, the 27th word is the pronoun "Heya" refering to "Night of Decree", which is one of the Quranic signs that it is the 27th day of Ramadan.
5. The expression "The Night of Decree" has 9 letters (symbolizing Ramadan) and occurs three times: 9 x 3 = 27. It is an allegory that "The night of Decree" is the 27th day of the 9th month.
6. If we select the verse where the 27th pure generic form "Night" occurs (verse 17:78), as well as the verse where the 9th word "Moon" occurs (21:33), there are from verse 17:78 to 21:33 (from verse to verse, both included) exactly 410 verses. 410 is the gematrical value of the 27th "night" of the 9th "Moon": "The night of Decree" (ليلة القدر). :jedi:
7. Between verse 17:78 (27th night) and 21:33 (the 9th "Moon"), the word "day" (singular generic form) occurs 27 times. Self explanatory. (many more signs in the article mentionned in the opening topic)
Derived from these amazing signs from God, I know not only that "the night of decree" (G.V 410, the night Quran was revealed) is the 27th night of the 9th "Moon", I also know that the 9th "Moon" is Ramadan (2:185).
Simple to understand, impossible to imitate. These profound signs are very easy to understand, an 8 year old would understand easily; still, because they are very easy but allegorical signs, they are
designed by God to be rejected by the wicked. They will always claim that it is a coincidence, that we should calculate gematrical value a different way, etc... One can always make up stuff to run away from the truth.
I will finish my post by one of the great miracles of the Quran that proves that the Hijri lunar calendar is approved by God almighty.
It is the "splitting of the moon" (54:1).
54:1 The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.This amazing event in the history of mankind occured when the american spacecraft left the "Moon" (we are talking a lot about the moon today, I know) with lunar rocks. Again it is both an allegory and a reality: The "Moon" experienced a "Separation".
Because of various time zones around the world, the human race witnessed this event at different times, but they all had one thing in common:
It was
54 minutes and
1 second exactly (documented historically by Nasa). Guess what the sura and verse of "the separation of the moon" is?
54:1Insincere people who do not understand that God controls everything will say: "Yes but hours and minutes are human made, this is a pure coincidence."
This is how they find an exit and believe they saved face.
Moreover, from the end of the Quran to verse 54:2 included, there are
1389 verses,
the lunar year in the Hijri calendar for the "splitting of the moon".This means that since the event occured well into the
1389th lunar year (the 6th day of the 5th month 1389 in the Hijri calendar), symbolically 54:1 displays even more precisely that the "splitting of the moon" indeed took place exactly in verse 54:1,
inside the
1389th lunar year in the Hijri calendar.
What will insincere people say in the face of these great miracles of the Quran: They will say: "Yes, but the Hijri calendar is man made, it is but a coincidence." Pharaoh would have said something similar: "this is but clever magic". History repeats itself.
Again,
God controls everything , He uses systems like calendars (which hundreds of millions of people understand) to display His signs, and shows intelligent people (that is to say
sincere) that indeed He supports the Hijri calendar, which is nothing but a continuation of the divine 12 lunar months system that He implemented since the solar system, planet earth and the moon were created (9:36).
There is more to say about the subject, a lot more. People who are not sincere will keep on arguing, even though those profound signs are from God and are engraved in the holy Quran. This is where people who believe in God are seperated from those who "no matter what kind of proofs, they willl not believe. (30:58)"
30:58 Thus, we have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples. Yet, no matter what kind of proof you present to the disbelievers, they say, "You are falsifiers."Peace.
Pierre
Quote from: 6619 on September 10, 2010, 12:27:15 PM
Salaam Ayman,
Ayman you are not a sincere person: There are two forms of plural in Arabic: Dual and "more than three".
If you deny this it is not even worth talking with you.
Singular = 1
Plural = 2 or more.
ahem, wrong
dual is 2, plural is 3 or more :peace:
Quote from: Mazhar on September 10, 2010, 12:03:09 PMFor being a "witness" or "bearing witness" one has either to be present on the occasion/point in time and/or he is to be the one who has the knowledge of that. A person in coma is present when any month begins but does not have the knowledge so he is not witnessing anything despite being existing at that point in time. A lunatic does see appearance of a moon but he is not considered to have witnessed it.
Same thing can be said about any verb such as "walking" (those in a coma can't do it). This doesn't mean that "walking" means "present/living and not in a coma". It only means that you are just an idiot parading his stupidity on a public forum and your stupid website. This is why you are scared to bring a single example from the great reading where "shahid" means "living/present and not in a coma."
Quote from: Mazhar on September 10, 2010, 12:03:09 PMNo one needs to prove a stupid a stupid. Stupids keep giving evidence to this effect at their own.
Indeed stupid is as stupid does. This is unlike your "smart" coma logic and how you evade answering how you would know your stupid manmade Ramadan not because you are clueless but because you are so "smart". :)
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
Peace Pierre,
Quote from: 6619 on September 10, 2010, 12:27:15 PMAyman you are not a sincere person: There are two forms of plural in Arabic: Dual and "more than three".
If you deny this it is not even worth talking with you.
Singular = 1
Plural = 2 or more.
Ayman, do you see the little "s" starting from "2 days", it means it is a plural. This is why dual and "more than three" type of plural are found 30 times in Quran, Got that ? ::)
Either you are really stupid if you do not admit this, or really your ego is sooo big that you will deny simply for the sake of denying and try to save face (unfortunately I am afraid that it is your ego that makes you deny simple things like that ).
It is not my problem that you ignore that in Arabic there is a difference between dual and plural and that plural is "3 or more", which renders everything that you just said nonsense. If being stupid means that unlike you I know that plural is "three or more" and not "more than three" then I would rather be stupid than be so incredibly smart like you. :)
Why include the dual in your counts? The only reason is so that you can get to 30, which is not even a real month and no calendar in existence has months with 30 days. So you are falsifying counts to get to what is anyway a false imaginary month.
Quote from: 6619 on September 10, 2010, 12:27:15 PMAnyways Ayman, it is an indisputable fact that there are 30 "days" in Quran, and you got burned. 30 "days" is the maximum number of "days" in the lunar calendar of 12 months decreed by God. It means more but I will keep it simple here.
As for the forms of "day" you have been told in a number of previous debates that there is a peculiar way of counting words in the Quran.
The reason why you deny it is that you refuse to see God's miracle of the Quran like 365 x "day".
The peculiar form of counting singular forms is.... singular generic forms without pronouns attached or else, simply the singular form.
When you open your mind to this then the miracle of 19 and many others like 365 "day" become a reality; they alll click together at the same time which proves their veracity. In other words it is miracle reserved for people who are sincere, on the other hand, insincere people with "closed minds" are forbidden from seeing the miracles. A veil separates them from the believers.
This is false selective numerology counting to reach a preconceived count by hook or by crook. You arbitrarily included "this day" and the non generic form "in the day" and "to a day", etc. but exclude "that day" ("that" is not a pronoun). You also include the accusative but hypocritically excluded it in other counts such as that of "wahid".
Quote from: 6619 on September 10, 2010, 12:27:15 PMHow do I know Ramadan is the 9th month out of 12?
This was not my question. Everything you said is based on Muharam being month 1 in year 1. This is why you are evading to answer my real question. Here it is again:
Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?See if you can answer using your numerology crap.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
I think what Pierre needs is a simple question. What ayman is trying to ask you, very consistent I might add, ;D what is the first month of the islamic calender based upon. History tells us the calender starts with the Hijra, the movement of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina. That's why ayman said it is man made. The date of the Hijra could not be taken as the starting point, when one is calculating the moon, the stars, the sun. It must be against God's creation. For example, the chinese calendar starting point is Winter. And they had perfected their calendar since then by using Winter as the starting point.
Now Ramadan is scorching heat, does the Hijra occurs during Summer but then again which month of Summer? Four seasons and three months to a season. How do you confirm the Hijra, by using the code 19, from within the Book of Truth, Pierre? :hmm
I hope this is as simple as I can put it. ;D
tauhid101.
Peace Tauhid,
Quote from: tauhid101 on September 11, 2010, 04:36:20 AMI think what Pierre needs is a simple question. What ayman is trying to ask you, very consistent I might add, ;D what is the first month of the islamic calender based upon. History tells us the calender starts with the Hijra, the movement of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina. That's why ayman said it is man made. The date of the Hijra could not be taken as the starting point, when one is calculating the moon, the stars, the sun. It must be against God's creation. For example, the chinese calendar starting point is Winter. And they had perfected their calendar since then by using Winter as the starting point.
Now Ramadan is scorching heat, does the Hijra occurs during Summer but then again which month of Summer? Four seasons and three months to a season. How do you confirm the Hijra, by using the code 19, from within the Book of Truth, Pierre? :hmm
I hope this is as simple as I can put it. ;D
Thank you for further clarifying the question that neither Pierre nor Mazhar can give a straight answer for.
If you read between the lines in Pierre's response, he seems to be implying that Umar only started the era but the order of the months in the Hijri calendar and Muharam has always been month 1 "since the creation of the heavens and the earth" (even before there were humans around to name it "Muharam"). Of course this is complete nonsense for several reasons:
1. Claiming that the god created the heavens and the earth on Muharam 1 before there was even humans around to name anything Muharam is not much different from the Jews who claim that the god completed the creation on a Friday or Sunnis who claim that the god created Adam on Friday. Pierre is exactly like the ignorant Jews and Sunnis who ignore that the week hasn't always been 7 days and this innovation started only about 2500 years ago with the Jews (long after the death of Moses and the revelation of the Torah). Similarly, the Hijri Months and their order hasn't always been around and this is an even more modern invention than the 7 day week.
2. There is absolutely no evidence of the months in the Hijri calendar prior to Umar. A couple of the months in the Hijri calendar were actually names of seasons used by the Arabs in their nomadic calendar that divided the year into 6 seasons. In this calendar, Rabii-Alawal was in spring and Rabii-Althani was in early fall.
3. Let's say for argument sake that the Hijri calendar existed before Umar's time (which it didn't) and Umar only decided the beginning of the new era. Still the same problem exists. Ultimately, some guy prior to Umar had to arbitrarily decide when Muharam 1 occurs and the order of the months and this is what really determines when Pierre and Mazhar's Ramadan occurs. So it is a 100% certain and indisputable fact that their so-called Ramadan is manmade arbitrary falsehood that has nothing to do with the god.
This is why they evade answering how they would find their Ramadan purely using the moon cycles if they wake up on a deserted island. This is because in reality their Ramadan is not based on the moon cycles but on arbitrary manmade falsehood. They know that on that day their falsehood will be completely lost from them.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Agreed with all your arguments there. It seems they are so engrossed with their code 19 and the traditions (it is always there between their lines), they ignored the Truth even when Truth bites them in the eyes.
I did a little research on Google about seasons and the start of winter? And trying to compare the start of winter in China and Saudi Arabia, so that I could use the Chinese calendar and compare them with the Hijri. Roughly.
This is what I find:
Winter starts between December 21st and 22nd in the Northern Hemisphere and between March 20th and 21st in the Southern Hemisphere. Meteorologically, it starts on December 1st and June 1st, respectively. According to the lunisolar calendar, it begins around November 7th.
http://answers.yourdictionary.com/science/units-of-measure/when-does-winter-start.html (http://answers.yourdictionary.com/science/units-of-measure/when-does-winter-start.html)
Since China and Saudi Arabia are both in the northern hemisphere, basically their seasons start at the same time. Basically the Chinese calendar could be used to determine whether the just finished Ramadan is actually the 9th month. With a little research of the Chinese calendar, this is what I get:
http://chinesecalendar.orados.com/english.aspx?d=2010-09-12 (http://chinesecalendar.orados.com/english.aspx?d=2010-09-12)
The calendar shows today:
World
Year: 2010
Month: September (9th month)
Day: 12th
Chinese
Year: The Tiger
Month: 8th Lunar month
Day: 5th (15th Autumnal Equinox)
Hijri
Year: 1431
Month: Syawal (10th month)
Day: 2 (Yawm al-Ithnayn - 2nd day)
The difference between the Chinese calendar month and the Hijri calendar month is almost 2 months. These are rough facts which shows the just finish fasting month called Ramadan, could not be the 9th month.
According to the Chinese calendar, the 9th month of this year is next month not last month. According to facts, the differences between the seasons in the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere is only a day or two. That is between north and south. But a difference of two months in the same hemisphere?
Peace.
tauhid101
Selam
In my opinion what ever counting system we use as a calendar must be useful to us. For example, we will need this calendar to conduct our daily lives, plant our crops etc. We will need it to determine the seasons and also know the restricted periods in not hunting certain animals to perserve the population. As a result which ever system we use it will be man made. But that man made system will need to be in sink with natural occuring events, so it is easy for us to conduct our daily affairs. The question we must ask is the lunar calendar able to do this? In my opinion, no. It would be very hard for a farmer for example to follow it in knowing the seasons. I read this post which I found very interesting:
"The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year) - so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth...." (Q9:36).
"It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory, and the moon to be a light of beauty, and measured out stages for it, that you might know the number of years and the count of time. Allah did not create this except in truth and righteousness. And He explains His signs in detail, for those who understand" (Q10:5).
With the above passages from the Quran, it is clear and confirmed by science that the moon orbits the Earth twelve times during the Earth orbits the sun in approximately 354 days. And mankind observing this phenomena has learned to count days and nights, by observing the moon and the sun, and to formulate a calender system either by lunar, or the solar system.
Either way, man has got a counting device to measure time in days, months and years.
The calender is very useful for mankind to schedule his activities, be it for social, business, agricultural, and since the creation of religion by man himself, it is a tool to mark "holy" days for his paganistic events and rituals.
The Hijrah, was setup for religious rituals purposes, and its inventor, decided to go lunar counting, as opposed to the Christian calender (Gregorian - named after Pope Gregory), which is solar based because this would set them apart from the Christians - to be different. Well, the decision to be different put them side-by-side with the Taoist, Bhuddist, and the Hindus, whom use the lunar system.
Fine, whichever method, solar, or lunar, there is nothing wrong in creating a calender for counting time, but the Hijrah was meant to be strictly followed for religious activities, e.g. prayers, fasting, pilgrimage etc., and this is where the fallacy lies.
As we know it, the Hijrah being lunar, has twelve months, and 29/30 days in a month, and therefore does not apply the 7days/week method as the Gregorian. The names of days correspond to the moon cycle, which is day 1,2,3 - 29/30. This is in fact, the same with all the other lunar calender system, which are being practiced by the Chinese, Indians, etc.
Now, the big religious question is, how did "Holy Friday" get into the Hijrah? There is no Friday in the lunar based Hijrah as there is no 7days/week system! Only the Gregorian has the 7days/week system and Friday is the 5th day of the 7 days/week.
It is very clear now that the holy Friday prayer (Jumaat) is following the Gregorian Friday, and the question is - Is there really a Friday prayer to start with? Nothing is mentioned in the Quran about this! I'm not going to delve into this, but the question is even if there is such a prayer, why is it scheduled on the Gregorian Friday? The answer is simple - they forgot about this when they concocted the Hijrah, and the choice of the lunar method does not allow for the 7days/method to be scientifically incorporated into the Hijrah (full stop)!
Ok, lets say they will argue that there is a day called Friday (5th day) in the Hijrah, then there is only one 5th day in a month, and so it would be a monthly prayer instead of weekly.
Again...ok...they will argue and say that there is a 7day/week system in the Hijrah, then how come it correspond to the Gregorian Friday all the time, whilst it is a fact that the Lunar Hijrah days/months/years never correspond to the Gregorian day/week/month/year. The Hijrah Friday would always fall on other Gregorian days and maybe on certain period it would correspond to the Gregorian Friday, but not every week!
Their fasting month of Ramadan attest to this clearly. Whilst they try hard every Hijrah year to be very accurate in proclaiming the start and end of the fast, they blindly (and unashamedly) remix the Gregorian Friday into the new month every year...if the first day of Ramadan falls on the Gregorian Friday... the first day of Ramadan begins on Friday...then, happily and conveniently - they pray...and fast, of course.
Now, as we look into the history of the Hijrah itself (according to Islamic Hijrah experts), briefly, the first day of the Hijrah correspond to the day Muhammad fled Mecca for Medina circa (mind you approximates only) 622 A.D. Since the date given is 'circa', there's no proof that that event took place on the first day of the new moon! Take note that the Hijrah was not conceptualized until 638 A.D. (approx. again), which means by simple mathematics the Hijrah was invented after 16 years in Medina.
As history has it, Muhammad remained for approximately 10 years in Mecca after the Quran was revealed to him. That means the Hijrah was only incorporated 26 years after Muhammad received the Quran.
The big religious question is - How did Muhammad and his followers perform all the rituals of prayers, fasting, and pilgrimage for 26 years before the Hijrah was invented. The only calender being used then, would be the Julian (now Gregorian), and it certainly seems odd that the so called 'Muslims' perform their rituals according to the Julian calender, as the Quran never make any reference to the Julian/Gregorian months of Jan-Dec, nor the days Mon-Sun ?
Since all the historical dates pertaining to Muhammad are 'circa' based, its difficult to determine if Muhammad was around to witness the implementation of the Hijrah, and whats more with all the events having conflicting 'circa' dates it turns any research on this matter into a mind boggling and futile enterprise. Whichever way one looks at it, whats apparent now is that the Hijrah was established after his demise, because his reign as the messenger supposedly only lasted 20 years!
However, one thing is sure, at least according to the Islamic historians and writers - the Hijrah was initiated by one of the companions, and not Muhammad himself, and that to me is the suggestion that he might not have been around.
In summation...when the tool that is used to schedule events, or rituals is inaccurate, and unreliable then the event/ritual that depends on it becomes questionable, or if it should ever take place? One could expect some explanations on this matter coming from them, but I can assure you it would be nothing more than some mathematical nonsense. It surely is something for the 'Muslims' to think about, and mind you this is year 2007, and they are still fumbling in their religion. Mathematically speaking, the Hijrah calendar, at best could only be labelled as 'Conjecture'.
The above verse (Q10:5) ends with "...for those who understand", obviously, these people don't understand!
Peace
Peace Tauhid,
Quote from: tauhid101 on September 12, 2010, 04:08:45 AMAgreed with all your arguments there. It seems they are so engrossed with their code 19 and the traditions (it is always there between their lines), they ignored the Truth even when Truth bites them in the eyes.
I did a little research on Google about seasons and the start of winter? And trying to compare the start of winter in China and Saudi Arabia, so that I could use the Chinese calendar and compare them with the Hijri. Roughly.
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.How can we determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the longest/shortest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. What people call "start" of winter or summer is actually in nature the winter and summer solstices. The fact that the year is the interval between solstices will always be true. Unlike any manmade calendar, even supposedly solar ones where for example, you have a year with 366 days every 4 years to adjust.
So the next question is which of the two solstices to start the count from? The meaning of "ramadan" as provided by Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly point to the summer solstice. You can see more discussions and details on this thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Also, the following Article in Arabic:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman and all,
Quote from: ayman on September 10, 2010, 02:03:30 PM
Peace Pierre,
It is not my problem that you ignore that in Arabic there is a difference between dual and plural and that plural is "3 or more", which renders everything that you just said nonsense. If being stupid means that unlike you I know that plural is "three or more" and not "more than three" then I would rather be stupid than be so incredibly smart like you. :)
Why include the dual in your counts? The only reason is so that you can get to 30, which is not even a real month and no calendar in existence has months with 30 days. So you are falsifying counts to get to what is anyway a false imaginary month.
This is false selective numerology counting to reach a preconceived count by hook or by crook. You arbitrarily included "this day" and the non generic form "in the day" and "to a day", etc. but exclude "that day" ("that" is not a pronoun). You also include the accusative but hypocritically excluded it in other counts such as that of "wahid".
This was not my question. Everything you said is based on Muharam being month 1 in year 1. This is why you are evading to answer my real question. Here it is again:
Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
See if you can answer using your numerology crap.
Peace,
Ayman
In Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?
Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities: Two types of plural.
If Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month").
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! :nope:
30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.
Peace.
Pierre
Quote from: 6619 on September 13, 2010, 07:29:05 PM
Salaam Ayman and all,
In Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?
Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities: Two types of plural.
If Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month").
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! :nope:
30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.
Peace.
Pierre
30 x 12 is 360, not 365
The moon does its thing every 27. something days, not 29 and not 30, so there can sometimes be 13 new moons in a solar year of 365 days
6619 you need to choose 1 way and stick to it as your arguments are not taking account of any FACTS
In arabic there is DUAL (2) and PLURAL (3+)
a dual ending would be alif nun, a plural ending would be alif taa or waw nun depending on gender, so your 'we are going to the park' you would see the change in the verb 'to go' depending on the gender of those going and not in the 'we' part.
I think :-\
Peace Pierre and Mazhar,
Quote from: 6619 on September 13, 2010, 07:29:05 PMIn Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?
Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities: Two types of plural.
If you say "you" are going to the park in English is "you" plural or singular? In English there is no difference only in the second person. This doesn't mean that there is no difference in general between singular and plural in English. Same thing in the Arabic only in the first person there is no difference between dual and plural. This doesn't mean that there is no difference in general between dual and plural in Arabic. When it comes to "ayam" and "yawmayn" the first person doesn't even arise and they are definitely different.
The ONLY reason you add the dual is to force the count to come to your imaginary 30 day month. Had the plural count been already 30 then you would have been arguing the exact opposite if I asked you why you didn't include the dual.
You are also unable to address the fact that the count of the singluar form "day" is never 365, as I mentioned previously.
Quote from: 6619 on September 13, 2010, 07:29:05 PMIf Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month").
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! :nope:
Am I "blind" because I don't want to believe you when you say that 365 is 30 x 12 !?? At least the blind can multiply. :)
Quote from: 6619 on September 13, 2010, 07:29:05 PM
30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.
Maybe the god is fooling you when he didn't make the lunar cycles 30 days. Do you think that the god is inaccurate and it would have been hard for him to make it 30 days?? You think that your nonsensical code and haphazard selective counting of words is more accurate than the god's system?
This is why neither you or Mazhar will ever be able to answer my questions:
How do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
If you wake up from a coma on a deserted island how would you be able to find your Ramadan based on your Code 19 and/or the lunar and/or solar cycles?You and Mazhar keep evading as usual, because you are both nothing more than a couple of clueless guys parading their ignorance on a public forum. What benefits people stays and what doesn't benefit them is swept away. Had you been able to answer those two questions, then you would be the heros of Sunnis and 19ers.
Peace,
Ayman
I agree these questions has not been answered by anyone...
QuoteHow do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
If you wake up from a coma on a deserted island how would you be able to find your Ramadan based on your Code 19 and/or the lunar and/or solar cycles?
Only Aymen could ask such irrelevant rather foolish questions based on ridiculous propositions.
Quote from: Mazhar on September 24, 2010, 11:39:45 AM
Only Aymen could ask such irrelevant rather foolish questions based on ridiculous propositions.
No Its not a foolish question, its a very valid question which you cannot answer.
The calendar at the time of Muhammed is not the calendar Islam goes by today, so very rightly one must ask when was the day 1 month 1 calculated from. Quran is not dependant on any of our calendars or months but on the system of Allah, so how would you know ramadan if you had no calendar and no watch? If you cannot answer it then you are saying that ramadan IS dependant on a calendar that is man made, which is how it is worked out now, not how Allah worked it out.
Unshackling the mind is really tricky and hard.. this is why most of our understanding gets biased and blurred by our pre-conceived ideas and old beliefs.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 24, 2010, 12:06:33 PM
No Its not a foolish question, its a very valid question which you cannot answer.
These are Mega foolish questions that can only be asked Mega foolish people and supported by Mega foolish people.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 24, 2010, 12:06:33 PM
The calendar at the time of Muhammed is not the calendar Islam goes by today, so very rightly one must ask when was the day 1 month 1 calculated from.
Where is the evidence of your faulty claim, Pom Pom girl?
21:73 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
32:24 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2010, 12:53:43 PM
These are Mega foolish questions that can only be asked Mega foolish people and supported by Mega foolish people.
so yu cant answer it either, that's erm, surprising ::)
QuoteWhere is the evidence of your faulty claim, Pom Pom girl?
Look it up no mind boy, calendars go back a long way and are different depending on what they are based on.
Quote21:73 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
32:24 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
was there a point to this post or was it just to remind us all you're still here not answering anything?
Common Ayisha.... you are smarter than this.. you are a grown up now.. stop playing in the play-pen with with the kids... you have better things to do for your own soul.. Leave the babies... their gurus... oh sorry.. their moms will take care of them.
Quote from: WayFinder on September 24, 2010, 01:16:15 PM
Common Ayisha.... you are smarter than this.. you are a grown up now.. stop playing in the play-pen with with the kids... you have better things to do for your own soul.. Leave the babies... their gurus... oh sorry.. their moms will take care of them.
yes I know you're right, obvious to anyone it came to poke a stick and not conribute.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 24, 2010, 01:06:42 PM
so yu cant answer it either, that's erm, surprising ::)
Answer to the nonsense questions were provided in the ?Hot/"ramadan" Answer? thread including a challenge which your (and WayFinder?s) master Ayman refused to accept. Thus exposing the falsehood and fakeness. The ?Hot Ramadan? article has no head or tail. It is absolutely the best example of ?no no?. It is the worst known article in the history of mankind. And who else would follow it other than you and WayFinder?
Quote from: Ayisha on September 24, 2010, 01:06:42 PM
Look it up no mind boy, calendars go back a long way and are different depending on what they are based on.
I have looked everywhere where sun shines but found no such evidence. You must be getting it out of where sun never shines.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 24, 2010, 12:06:33 PM
No Its not a foolish question, its a very valid question which you cannot answer.
The calendar at the time of Muhammed is not the calendar Islam goes by today, so very rightly one must ask when was the day 1 month 1 calculated from. Quran is not dependant on any of our calendars or months but on the system of Allah, so how would you know ramadan if you had no calendar and no watch? If you cannot answer it then you are saying that ramadan IS dependant on a calendar that is man made, which is how it is worked out now, not how Allah worked it out.
What a correct observation
QuoteThese are Mega foolish questions that can only be asked Mega foolish people and supported by Mega foolish people.
Are the phases of moon measured by watches?
Quote from: Mazhar on September 24, 2010, 03:18:18 PM
Are the phases of moon measured by watches?
How would you know it is the ninth moon?
Quote from: WayFinder on September 24, 2010, 03:44:02 PM
How would you know it is the ninth moon?
and how many pages the same question unanswered.
Seems there are a few who just post insults because they are backed up with questions they cannot answer. :peace:
Quote from: Ayisha on September 24, 2010, 01:06:42 PM
Quote
21:73 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
32:24 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
was there a point to this post or was it just to remind us all you're still here not answering anything?
You seem to be at a lost whenever straight forward Quranic verses are quoted. You fail to grasp the meaning of it in the context of the discussion at hand. But you rejoice whenever someone twist the meaning of a verse and produce a devilish interpretation to it. You leave crystal clear evidence of it in your writing. The latest example being in the Dr. Qamar's Haqeeqat...thread: ?Downloaded both and have read introduction only on fasting. I like this guy already, thanks mubashir55. will let you know how i get on with the rest.? Even a mentally retard person would show a better understanding than him. And you love him!!!
Now I will give you the the reasons (baby steps) for citing those verses:
21:73 tells us that we are to learn salat, zakat, and other religious rites from imam. And you and people like you would violate this verse and say we know better than the imams we will tell you how to perform salat and other religious rite. We have the master book ?root meaning dictionary? where we find all the explanation of the Quranic verses. Even though the Quran does not say that you will learn salat from the Quran, our root meaning dictionary override the Quran and says this is it.
With your approach you would have argued with Prophet Muhammad regarding salat and other rites if you were living at that time. You would have said to Prophet Muhammad that he was doing the salat wrong because the Quran does not tell us to do it this way. And your timing is wrong as well, you shall perform salat 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....times a day.
And if you were living after prophet Muhammad died (within 30 years or so), you would have said the same thing to the follower of Prophet Muhammad who has learned to perform salat from Prophet Muhammad.
This is the absurdity you and your friends are propagating here. You can never succeed.
Quote from: WayFinder on September 24, 2010, 03:44:02 PM
How would you know it is the ninth moon?
With this question he implying the following:
1. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not know when the ninth moon was i.e. when the Ramadan is.
2. For certain, Prophet Muhammad knew when the Ramadan month was and the night of destiny
3. WayFinder wants us to believe that Prophet Muhammad did not know it and hence his follower did not know it. Otherwise why would he ask such a foolish question.
4. The reference point has been established by Prophet Muhammad which has been propagated to us via continuity and blessings of Allah
5. Only the wicked people will disregard the truth.
guest to Ayisha
QuoteBut you rejoice whenever someone twist the meaning of a verse and produce a devilish interpretation to it. You leave crystal clear evidence of it in your writing. The latest example being in the Dr. Qamar's Haqeeqat...thread: ?Downloaded both and have read introduction only on fasting. I like this guy already, thanks mubashir55. will let you know how i get on with the rest.? Even a mentally retard person would show a better understanding than him. And you love him!!!
That was just classic :bravo:
Quote from: guest on September 25, 2010, 02:00:42 PMQuote
21:73 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
32:24 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
was there a point to this post or was it just to remind us all you're still here not answering anything?
apart from the last line, that was your quote.
QuoteYou seem to be at a lost whenever straight forward Quranic verses are quoted. You fail to grasp the meaning of it in the context of the discussion at hand. But you rejoice whenever someone twist the meaning of a verse and produce a devilish interpretation to it. You leave crystal clear evidence of it in your writing. The latest example being in the Dr. Qamar's Haqeeqat...thread: ?Downloaded both and have read introduction only on fasting. I like this guy already, thanks mubashir55. will let you know how i get on with the rest.? Even a mentally retard person would show a better understanding than him. And you love him!!!
You seem to be at a loss that what you quoted had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You fail to grasp the context of the verses you posted.
I am glad that I have got up your nose to the point you are now searching my posts to find something to twist and say your hadith on though. I had read the introduction and liked it, it doesnt mean I have read all of it and 'loved him' so that is another thing you have publicly twisted.
QuoteNow I will give you the the reasons (baby steps) for citing those verses:
21:73 tells us that we are to learn salat, zakat, and other religious rites from imam. And you and people like you would violate this verse and say we know better than the imams we will tell you how to perform salat and other religious rite. We have the master book ?root meaning dictionary? where we find all the explanation of the Quranic verses. Even though the Quran does not say that you will learn salat from the Quran, our root meaning dictionary override the Quran and says this is it.
Now I will attempt to teach you what you seem to be blind to.
21.73 is talking about Isaac and Jacob, not the imam in the local Mosque showing you how to pray. It is wise to check previous verse to see the context of the verse you are claiming means something totally different. The Imams are the prophets
QuoteWith your approach you would have argued with Prophet Muhammad regarding salat and other rites if you were living at that time. You would have said to Prophet Muhammad that he was doing the salat wrong because the Quran does not tell us to do it this way. And your timing is wrong as well, you shall perform salat 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....times a day.
And if you were living after prophet Muhammad died (within 30 years or so), you would have said the same thing to the follower of Prophet Muhammad who has learned to perform salat from Prophet Muhammad.
This shows you up so much.
QuoteThis is the absurdity you and your friends are propagating here. You can never succeed.
Then why is it you and your friends that cannot ever answer a straight question?
Now lets look at your other verses you have given in your attempt to have some other book and hadith other than God's followed.
32.24, please refer to 32.23 and you will see it relates to the people of Moses and the prophets given to them.
7.179 tells about people like yourself, more misguided than cattle and totally unaware.
Quote from: guest on September 25, 2010, 02:14:27 PMQuoteHow would you know it is the ninth moon?
With this question he implying the following:
1. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not know when the ninth moon was i.e. when the Ramadan is.
2. For certain, Prophet Muhammad knew when the Ramadan month was and the night of destiny
3. WayFinder wants us to believe that Prophet Muhammad did not know it and hence his follower did not know it. Otherwise why would he ask such a foolish question.
4. The reference point has been established by Prophet Muhammad which has been propagated to us via continuity and blessings of Allah
5. Only the wicked people will disregard the truth.
the great logical deductions again!
1. No it doesnt, It reinforces what has been written many times that you seem totally blind to or possibly do not have the ability to understand what is being said. Baby steps for you:
-the
c a l e n d a r that was in use at the time of the prophet
was not the islamic one used now 2. the prophet would definitely have known when it was and how to know it. He was the one that got the message when using the
calendar at that time,
not the one used now. the
lunar calendar used now was brought into force
after the prophets death 3. No that is not what wayfinder is saying nor is anyone else. Nor is it a foolish question considering all the
new things that have been
brought into Islam since the
death of the
prophet. What
is foolish is to think that nothing has changed since his death, even when what you are looking at as proof wasnt there a few hundred years after his death.
Think hundreds of years, not one or 2. Within
days of Moses and his brother preaching God's message to his people
they started worshipping a calf!
D A Y S. Within
weeks or months of the prophet's death there were
more than 12 different sects! What
is foolish is not even seeing this or
considering the possibility and being
lazy enough just to assume the ones that teach you know the right stuff and following that regardless because you feel comfortable in that
cattle mode blindly following what you are told and not having to devote any brain time on it.
4. The reference point was
established by Allah and followed by Muhammed, after his death they changed the
calendar and it is not followed now. The continuity it by saying 'its ramadan now' as the ramadan period the prophet followed was ramadan then and for over 1300 years at a
loss of 11 days a year between
calendar then and
calendar now is a quite out of sync with when God says it was and Muhammed followed.
Really I am trying to explain this in very simple terms, sorry if it's gone right over your head but if you used your brain more it would work better. It is like any other part of your body and needs exercise.
5. I absolutely 100% agree with you.
QuoteHow would you know it is the ninth moon?
A person who is mentally Okay pesistently, and does not undergo spells of stupidity intermittently like some of our friends on this forum, always knows as to which is the month of the year he is living in. Only a lunatic getting back to senses may not be able to know immediately as to which is the month he is passing through.
Quote1. No it doesnt, It reinforces what has been written many times that you seem totally blind to or possibly do not have the ability to understand what is being said. Baby steps for you:
-the c a l e n d a r that was in use at the time of the prophet was not the islamic one used now
2. the prophet would definitely have known when it was and how to know it. He was the one that got the message when using the calendar at that time, not the one used now. the lunar calendar used now was brought into force after the prophets death
And by the way who has told you these "baby steps" which are litterally a talk of a baby who thinks these are "gems"
Quote4. The reference point was established by Allah and followed by Muhammed, after his death they changed the calendar and it is not followed now. The continuity it by saying 'its ramadan now' as the ramadan period the prophet followed was ramadan then and for over 1300 years at a loss of 11 days a year between calendar then and calendar now is a quite out of sync with when God says it was and Muhammed followed.
What specific change was brought in the calendar?
I could not make out anything of the red part. Will you please break it and make it simple.
Quote from: Mazhar on September 25, 2010, 04:37:30 PM
A person who is mentally Okay pesistently, and does not undergo spells of stupidity intermittently like some of our friends on this forum, always knows as to which is the month of the year he is living in. Only a lunatic getting back to senses may not be able to know immediately as to which is the month he is passing through.
do you have daylight saving time in Pakistan? If it is 2am now and the same time tomorrow it is 1am is it really 2am or 1am?
This is September, if someone decided to change the calendar and decide there were not 365 in a year but 354 and as of today this new calendar would start as month one day one and call it January 1st, would it be January 1st that we can base the 9th month of September on?
Quote from: Mazhar on September 25, 2010, 04:42:38 PM
And by the way who has told you these "baby steps" which are litterally a talk of a baby who thinks these are "gems"
could you clarify the question, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote from: Mazhar on September 25, 2010, 04:49:07 PM
What specific change was brought in the calendar?
I could not make out anything of the red part. Will you please break it and make it simple.
8 pages and another 2 or is it 3 threads and you are still playing dumb? Cant make that any simpler and if you haven't got it by now then you never will, so stop trying.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 25, 2010, 03:58:20 PM
With this question he implying the following:
1. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not know when the ninth moon was i.e. when the Ramadan is.
2. For certain, Prophet Muhammad knew when the Ramadan month was and the night of destiny
3. WayFinder wants us to believe that Prophet Muhammad did not know it and hence his follower did not know it. Otherwise why would he ask such a foolish question.
4. The reference point has been established by Prophet Muhammad which has been propagated to us via continuity and blessings of Allah
5. Only the wicked people will disregard the truth.
the great logical deductions again!
The true color of your buddy (WayFinder) has been exposed and he realizes it and went into hiding. And you being what you are grabbing on to his falsehood and trying to mislead other by claiming FALSEHOOD = TRUTH. You will not succeed!!
Quote from: Ayisha on September 25, 2010, 03:58:20 PM
1. No it doesnt, It reinforces what has been written many times that you seem totally blind to or possibly do not have the ability to understand what is being said. Baby steps for you:
-the c a l e n d a r that was in use at the time of the prophet was not the islamic one used now
And you know this because you saw a vision when you and your buddy were practicing voodooism on a full moon night in the summer solstice. And this is your evidence of truth. How awful!!!!!
We use the calendar system that has been established by Prophet Muhammad. It has been preserved for us (believer).
You seem to think that if I start a new calendar today, my fasting month would be inconsistent from that of Prophet Muhammad. This is the thinking of ignorant, immature and wicked people. I will demonstrate this via an example which I posted in the Hot Ramadan debate thread (Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer ? Reply #2087 on: October 01, 2009, 04:25:07 PM ?).
As usual, Ayman doesn?t know what he is talking about. He turns a simple matter into a complex and complicated thing. This is his nature. I will illustrate Ayman?s ill thinking using a simple concept that uses Prophet Muhammad as the reference point. Other prophets can be used just as well.
Arbitrary Months: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Pre Quranic)
Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---
9---10---11---12
(Receive revelation)
Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---
9---10---11---12
(Defines Calendar)
Prophet Muhammad has the authority to define the arbitrary pre-Quranic months into Islamic months/calendar. Thus, Prophet Muhammad establishes the Islamic calendar with 9 as the month of Ramadan because that?s when he received the revelation from the God. Henceforth, by definition the calendar cannot be called arbitrary anymore. Thus, the Islamic calendar has been canonized by Prophet Muhammad.
Now, guest wants to establish an Islamic calendar with new initial point (mark or month 1)
Islamic Calendar: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6----7----8----
9 Guest Calendar: 1---2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---
12 As a God fearing person, I would have to maintain synch with Prophet Muhammad defined month of Ramadan. Therefore, in Guest calendar, Ramadan is performed in the month 12. This way I have a different calendar, yet fasting in the same physical timeframe, even though Guest month is 12 and Islamic month is 9. Similarly, I can move the initial point to any point in time without compromising the calendar defined by Prophet Muhammad.
This is so simple, yet, Ayman doesn?t get it.
22:3 - Among the people, there are those who argue about GOD without knowledge, and follow every rebellious devil.
22:4 - It is decreed that anyone who allies himself with him, he will mislead him and guide him to the agony of Hell.
Ayisha, since your faulty logic on calendar has been exposed, I suggest you go into hiding with WayFinder and kick each other?s hiney.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 25, 2010, 03:58:20 PM
3. No that is not what wayfinder is saying nor is anyone else. Nor is it a foolish question considering all the new things that have been brought into Islam since the death of the prophet. What is foolish is to think that nothing has changed since his death, even when what you are looking at as proof wasnt there a few hundred years after his death. Think hundreds of years, not one or 2. Within days of Moses and his brother preaching God's message to his people they started worshipping a calf! D A Y S. Within weeks or months of the prophet's death there were more than 12 different sects! What is foolish is not even seeing this or considering the possibility and being lazy enough just to assume the ones that teach you know the right stuff and following that regardless because you feel comfortable in that cattle mode blindly following what you are told and not having to devote any brain time on it.
This is the straw that breaks the camel's back. You need to get your head examined!
You have the nerve to equate Moses?s people with believers who fought with Prophet Muhammad with their life and money in the cause of Allah. You are truly a lost soul. Reflect on the following verse:
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Selam
I think a point has been missed here. The Quran's description of Ramadan does not rely on any calander but naturally occuring phenomena. This meaning that at any point if an error is made in the calander system for any reason the actual timming of Ramadan could easily be determined by Allah's natural laws which we could easily witness around us. This way no one could lead no one else astray as the phenomena does not require mans input. Anyways, this is my understanding of the situation, Allah has given us free will to choose.
May Allah's guidance be with us.
Peace
Quote from: hope4 on September 27, 2010, 05:48:38 PM
Selam
I think a point has been missed here. The Quran's description of Ramadan does not rely on any calander but naturally occuring phenomena. This meaning that at any point if an error is made in the calander system for any reason the actual timming of Ramadan could easily be determined by Allah's natural laws which we could easily witness around us. This way no one could lead no one else astray as the phenomena does not require mans input. Anyways, this is my understanding of the situation, Allah has given us free will to choose.
May Allah's guidance be with us.
Peace
yes that is the point that is trying to be put across. As the calendar has changed there must be some way to know using the signs that Allah gave us and not using a man made calendar system at all, hence how would you know its ramadan if you woke up on a desert island.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2010, 08:56:50 AM
And you know this because you saw a vision when you and your buddy were practicing voodooism on a full moon night in the summer solstice. And this is your evidence of truth. How awful!!!!!
you are insane.
QuoteWe use the calendar system that has been established by Prophet Muhammad. It has been preserved for us (believer).
and dumb
QuoteYou seem to think that if I start a new calendar today, my fasting month would be inconsistent from that of Prophet Muhammad. This is the thinking of ignorant, immature and wicked people. I will demonstrate this via an example which I posted in the Hot Ramadan debate thread (Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer ? Reply #2087 on: October 01, 2009, 04:25:07 PM ?).
As usual, Ayman doesn?t know what he is talking about. He turns a simple matter into a complex and complicated thing. This is his nature. I will illustrate Ayman?s ill thinking using a simple concept that uses Prophet Muhammad as the reference point. Other prophets can be used just as well.
Arbitrary Months: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Pre Quranic)
Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Receive revelation)
Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Defines Calendar)
Prophet Muhammad has the authority to define the arbitrary pre-Quranic months into Islamic months/calendar. Thus, Prophet Muhammad establishes the Islamic calendar with 9 as the month of Ramadan because that?s when he received the revelation from the God. Henceforth, by definition the calendar cannot be called arbitrary anymore. Thus, the Islamic calendar has been canonized by Prophet Muhammad.
Now, guest wants to establish an Islamic calendar with new initial point (mark or month 1)
Islamic Calendar: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6----7----8----9
Guest Calendar: 1---2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
As a God fearing person, I would have to maintain synch with Prophet Muhammad defined month of Ramadan. Therefore, in Guest calendar, Ramadan is performed in the month 12. This way I have a different calendar, yet fasting in the same physical timeframe, even though Guest month is 12 and Islamic month is 9. Similarly, I can move the initial point to any point in time without compromising the calendar defined by Prophet Muhammad.
This is so simple, yet, Ayman doesn?t get it.
22:3 - Among the people, there are those who argue about GOD without knowledge, and follow every rebellious devil.
22:4 - It is decreed that anyone who allies himself with him, he will mislead him and guide him to the agony of Hell.
Ayisha, since your faulty logic on calendar has been exposed, I suggest you go into hiding with WayFinder and kick each other?s hiney.
This is the straw that breaks the camel's back. You need to get your head examined!
You have the nerve to equate Moses?s people with believers who fought with Prophet Muhammad with their life and money in the cause of Allah. You are truly a lost soul. Reflect on the following verse:
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
with written proof of both
Quote from: hope4 on September 27, 2010, 05:48:38 PM
Selam
I think a point has been missed here. The Quran's description of Ramadan does not rely on any calander but naturally occuring phenomena. This meaning that at any point if an error is made in the calander system for any reason the actual timming of Ramadan could easily be determined by Allah's natural laws which we could easily witness around us. This way no one could lead no one else astray as the phenomena does not require mans input. Anyways, this is my understanding of the situation, Allah has given us free will to choose.
May Allah's guidance be with us.
Peace
Peace
Your statement is very subjective. It does not add any value unless you say my system (my way) give me an error of plus minus: 0.00000000000000001 and here is the proof of it. In reality, the system you and Ayman are advocating makes an error of more than 30 days. If you invented new system then please give the detail of that system.
[The true color of your buddy (WayFinder) has been exposed and he realizes it and went into hiding. ]
You are waaaay tooo smart for me... :giveup:
I think you should feel really good now... :rotfl:
Quote from: guest on September 28, 2010, 01:27:31 PM
Peace
Your statement is very subjective. It does not add any value unless you say my system (my way) give me an error of plus minus: 0.00000000000000001 and here is the proof of it. In reality, the system you and Ayman are advocating makes an error of more than 30 days. If you invented new system then please give the detail of that system.
Peace Guest
Hope you are well. Just to reply to the above I would like to say that the lunar calendar is out of sink with all natural systems, e.g. we could not use it to determine the seasons. What you have stated is not proof at all. How did you workout the error of plus/minus 10^-16? I think I have missed the point ???
In short no matter what calendar we use its only purpose is to serve as organising our lives. The Quran does not mention no calendar in use today but rather markers that are naturally occuring in which we can find a reference point inorder to count. The Islamic lunar calander only came into being around 638 A.D. The question you must therefore ask is, what calander was in use before then, considering our prophets death occured around 632 A.D.?
Peace
Quote from: hope4 on September 28, 2010, 07:09:13 PM
Peace Guest
Hope you are well. Just to reply to the above I would like to say that the lunar calendar is out of sink with all natural systems, e.g. we could not use it to determine the seasons. What you have stated is not proof at all. How did you workout the error of plus/minus 10^-16? I think I have missed the point ???
In short no matter what calendar we use its only purpose is to serve as organising our lives. The Quran does not mention no calendar in use today but rather markers that are naturally occuring in which we can find a reference point inorder to count. The Islamic lunar calander only came into being around 638 A.D. The question you must therefore ask is, what calander was in use before then, considering our prophets death occured around 632 A.D.?
Peace
Peace
Lunar calendar is not out of sync with all natural systems. Lunar cycle itself is a natural system (Allah?s system). And what is season got to do with our deen. Nothing!
The lunar cycle, solar cycle and seasons are independent natural phenomenon. None of them are in synch with each other. If you use lunar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor, say X. If you use solar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor as well, say Y. The value of X may be larger than the value Y, the fact is a correction is required.
You can track the seasons with lunar cycle by applying the correction X. Likewise you can track the seasons with solar system by applying the correction factor Y. The key point is none of them are naturally in synch with the seasons. And this has nothing to do with religion.
You have talked about a natural marker. How accurately can you get back to the marker from year to year? You seem to imply the error is zero. I made the zero to a very small number. How do you assure yourself that your starting point is the same every year and not off by say 30 days.
Quote from: guest on September 29, 2010, 02:40:16 PM
Peace
Lunar calendar is not out of sync with all natural systems. Lunar cycle itself is a natural system (Allah?s system). And what is season got to do with our deen. Nothing!
???
QuoteThe lunar cycle, solar cycle and seasons are independent natural phenomenon. None of them are in synch with each other. If you use lunar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor, say X. If you use solar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor as well, say Y. The value of X may be larger than the value Y, the fact is a correction is required.
The lunar cycle, the solar cycle and the seasons are from Allah, not a phenomenon. They are prefectly in sync with each other. The number of months in a year is 12 according to Allah. The moons orbit around the earth is once every 29.53 days, so x 12 = 354.36 in one
year if the islamic calendar uses 12 lunar cycles. The Earth and its orbiting moon orbit the sun once every 365.25 days. The Islamic man made calendar has given the 12 months 30 (or 29) days each, and the total in a year is 354 days or sometimes 355 days, so this is out of sync with the solar calendar which give the seasons and the vegetation of those seasons by 11 days a year. The islamic calendar used now is not a lunar calendar based on any astronomical calculations as a lunar calendar is.
The calendar you are refering to with your x and y values is to bring it into sync. The original calendar used when Muhammed was here was a lunisolar calendar and every 3 years there was an intercalary
month or a
leap month added. This was repeated through all the months over the years so in the leap year you have Muḥarram to Dhū al-Ḥajja + Dhū al-Ḥajja. the next leap year you have 2 months of Muḥarram then complete to Dhū al-Ḥajja, the next leap year you have Muḥarram and 2 months of Ṣafar then complete the year. With this you are postponing some forbidden months till the following month, cant you see that? So some leap years would even have 2 months of 'Ramadan' too. This obviously was what Allah referred to in verse 9.37 regarding
postponing forbidden months.The Islamic calendar used now by
most of the Muslim world was brought in after Muhammeds death
QuoteYou can track the seasons with lunar cycle by applying the correction X. Likewise you can track the seasons with solar system by applying the correction factor Y. The key point is none of them are naturally in synch with the seasons. And this has nothing to do with religion.
the solar calendar is in sync with the seasons and adding leap
day every 4 years brings it in sync. This has everything to do with Allah and it is in Quran that you were given sun and moon to measure time and count the years and that you were given stars to guide you.
QuoteYou have talked about a natural marker. How accurately can you get back to the marker from year to year? You seem to imply the error is zero. I made the zero to a very small number. How do you assure yourself that your starting point is the same every year and not off by say 30 days.
you cannot make zero to a small number. You made the variation to a small number but you were not basing it on anything and took numbers out of your head. As I have said above the calendar used was off by 30 days and thats why there was a month added every 3 years because the Lunar cycle is out of sync with the solar one. The natural marker would be the sun and the seasons, the earth travelling round the sun, 365.25 days a
year from one spring to the next spring etc. That is a marker. The moon travels round the earth but the
earth AND its moon both travel around the sun, no sun = no life
Quote from: guest on September 29, 2010, 02:40:16 PM
Peace
Lunar calendar is not out of sync with all natural systems. Lunar cycle itself is a natural system (Allah?s system). And what is season got to do with our deen. Nothing!
The lunar cycle, solar cycle and seasons are independent natural phenomenon. None of them are in synch with each other. If you use lunar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor, say X. If you use solar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor as well, say Y. The value of X may be larger than the value Y, the fact is a correction is required.
You can track the seasons with lunar cycle by applying the correction X. Likewise you can track the seasons with solar system by applying the correction factor Y. The key point is none of them are naturally in synch with the seasons. And this has nothing to do with religion.
You have talked about a natural marker. How accurately can you get back to the marker from year to year? You seem to imply the error is zero. I made the zero to a very small number. How do you assure yourself that your starting point is the same every year and not off by say 30 days.
Selam guest
The sighting of the starting point is described here:
Anytime the moon is full, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth. Thus, if one is high in the sky, as the sun is around the summer solstice, the moon must be low. Of course, this is 100% consistent. So full moons that occur around the summer solstice are special because they follow the lowest path across the sky of all of the year's full moons.
The "scorching" aspect of the full moon occurs due to the same phenomenon that gives sunsets their red color. It is the scattering of light in the earth's dusty atmosphere close to the horizon. Thus, a full-moon that hangs lower across the horizon will appear and stay redder than one that quickly climbs to a higher altitude. Also, for some reason, our brains are wired to perceive such low hanging red full moons as much larger than normal. In addition, the red full-moon after the summer solstice is special because it occurs when the weather is starting to get very hot. Thus, the two aspects of "scorching" (the red color and heat) are associated with this particular full-moon.
Because of its color and appearance being associated with the hotter time of the year many ancient cultures had names for the full moon after the summer solstice such as hot moon, blood moon, red moon, etc. In a flat desert with its dusty atmosphere and very hot weather, this "scorching full moon" would have appeared very dramatic to the pre-quranic Arabs.
This is all easily verifiable by observing the full moon after the summer solstice when it appears. This is one of the easiest to witness attention-grabbing sights in the night sky.
It happens once a year every year. What a wonderful marker.
Peace
Quote from: hope4 on September 29, 2010, 06:31:24 PM
Selam guest
The sighting of the starting point is described here:
Anytime the moon is full, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth. Thus, if one is high in the sky, as the sun is around the summer solstice, the moon must be low. Of course, this is 100% consistent. So full moons that occur around the summer solstice are special because they follow the lowest path across the sky of all of the year's full moons.
The "scorching" aspect of the full moon occurs due to the same phenomenon that gives sunsets their red color. It is the scattering of light in the earth's dusty atmosphere close to the horizon. Thus, a full-moon that hangs lower across the horizon will appear and stay redder than one that quickly climbs to a higher altitude. Also, for some reason, our brains are wired to perceive such low hanging red full moons as much larger than normal. In addition, the red full-moon after the summer solstice is special because it occurs when the weather is starting to get very hot. Thus, the two aspects of "scorching" (the red color and heat) are associated with this particular full-moon.
Because of its color and appearance being associated with the hotter time of the year many ancient cultures had names for the full moon after the summer solstice such as hot moon, blood moon, red moon, etc. In a flat desert with its dusty atmosphere and very hot weather, this "scorching full moon" would have appeared very dramatic to the pre-quranic Arabs.
This is all easily verifiable by observing the full moon after the summer solstice when it appears. This is one of the easiest to witness attention-grabbing sights in the night sky.
It happens once a year every year. What a wonderful marker.
Peace
Peace
How do you determine the full moon? What is the criterion?
How do you know that full moon you are looking at is a FULL MOON not a day away from the actual full moon? It is not an on/off situation. Run a test with humans and you will know what I mean. This is the first error!
The second error you will make is with full moon that occurs few days prior to summer solstice vs. the full moon after the summer solstice. There is your 30 day error. Just run an impartial test to determine the fact for yourself.
The third error will be the 13th moon. Somehow you have to make it disappear.
All these issues were discussed in the hot Ramadan thread. There is no need to rewrite them again in this thread.
Quote from: guest on September 30, 2010, 11:09:04 AM
Peace
How do you determine the full moon? What is the criterion?
How do you know that full moon you are looking at is a FULL MOON not a day away from the actual full moon?
Seems we have someone who never took the time to observe the moon in his entire life... poor lad. Maybe he should try to measure the roundness of the moon with a coin... or an egg ... or an orange... :rotfl:
Peace brother WayFinder,
Quote from: WayFinder on September 30, 2010, 11:29:19 AMSeems we have someone who never took the time to observe the moon in his entire life... poor lad. Maybe he should try to measure the roundness of the moon with a coin... or an egg ... or an orange... :rotfl:
We don't even need a coin, an egg or an orange :). The god tells us exactly and very simply how to determine the full moon:
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk. (http://i56.tinypic.com/2us79mo.jpg)
84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds. 84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric/full.(http://i47.tinypic.com/2nqe0yh.jpg)
After sunset when the sky is glowing red,the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite directionwhere the full symmetric moon appears. Guest ignores that the full-moon and the sun are on opposite sides of the earth. So the actual full-moon will appear shortly after sunset in 180 degrees opposite direction from where the darkness enshrouds the sky. This is why there has NEVER been any dispute amongst ANY people on the full-moon while EVERY SINGLE YEAR there are MANY disputes even in the same region and between neighbors about the waxing crescent moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Now that sort of sunset we get on the Nile in winter only, not in summer. I have some amazing pics of the reds and oranges from December sunsets
Peace Ayisha,
Quote from: Ayisha on September 30, 2010, 12:30:22 PMNow that sort of sunset we get on the Nile in winter only, not in summer. I have some amazing pics of the reds and oranges from December sunsets
It is because in Egypt there are usually no clouds in the summer to further defract the light. On the East Coast of the US we get those kind of sunsets all the time :sun:. I am not sure where this pic was taken though. It is just a picture of dusk I found on line.
In the desert the sunsets look very red and dramatic because of the dusty atmosphere increasing the defraction of light.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 30, 2010, 12:34:25 PM
Peace Ayisha,
It is because in Egypt there are usually no clouds in the summer to further defract the light.
Peace,
Ayman
thats true, endless blue skies and blazing sun and not a cloud or a breeze ;D Like hell with sky :'(
Peace Ayman
I witnessed the full moon which you are describing in London this year. However, did not really know the significance of what I was seeing until I read your notes. It even made me pull over to the side, get out of my car and watch it in amazment, the redness of the moon and also how big it appeared was breath taking. I just wished I had a camera to capture that moment and share it.
Peace
Quote from: WayFinder on September 30, 2010, 11:29:19 AM
Seems we have someone who never took the time to observe the moon in his entire life... poor lad. Maybe he should try to measure the roundness of the moon with a coin... or an egg ... or an orange... :rotfl:
Hey, I thought you were hiding behind Ayisha?s skirt. You had to come out to make fun of yourself again. Didn?t I tell you that you don?t know the implication of your own writing? Like Ayisha you respond without even understanding the question.
For your information the Full Moon, the moon day before the full moon, and the moon day after the full moon, looks the same with naked eyes. You need telescope or binocular to see the difference in the moon disk. I suppose the average Arabs during the time of Prophet Muhammad was walking with a telescope to find the easy marker. If you remove the calculated full moon reference from you head you will pick the day before or the day after moon as the full moon.
Unlike you, I have already validated the theory with an experiment. I asked people who knew nothing about the experiment, to identify the moon that appeared one day before the full moon; they said it was a full moon. An error! I did the same with the moon that appeared day after the full moon. They said it was a full moon. Another error. And you call this a clear cut marker. Lies after lies whose root can be traced back to root meaning dictionary.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 29, 2010, 04:05:37 PM
The lunar cycle, the solar cycle and the seasons are from Allah, not a phenomenon. They are prefectly in sync with each other.
Peace Ayisha,
I hate to tell you that you don?t know the meaning of synch in this situation. I will leave it at that.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 29, 2010, 04:05:37 PM
the solar calendar is in sync with the seasons and adding leap day every 4 years brings it in sync. This has everything to do with Allah and it is in Quran that you were given sun and moon to measure time and count the years and that you were given stars to guide you.
Your own statement proves that the solar calendar is not in synch with the seasons. If it is in perfect sync then you wouldn?t be adding anything to it! The fact that you are adding something tells me that it is out of sync without the additional thing.
Quote from: Ayisha on September 29, 2010, 04:05:37 PM
As I have said above the calendar used was off by 30 days and thats why there was a month added every 3 years because the Lunar cycle is out of sync with the solar one.
Previously you said ?The lunar cycle, the solar cycle and the seasons are from Allah, not a phenomenon. They are prefectly in sync with each other. ?
Now you are saying ??.the Lunar cycle is out of sync with the solar one?. Can you understand these are contradictory statements? You should determine your limit and stay within it!
Quote from: guest on September 30, 2010, 02:19:39 PM
Hey, I thought you were hiding behind Ayisha’s skirt.
:police:
QuoteYou had to come out to make fun of yourself again. Didn’t I tell you that you don’t know the implication of your own writing? Like Ayisha you respond without even understanding the question.
No... we know nothing here... you are the only person who knows everything... guess what... I dont know what i am writing right now!
QuoteFor your information the Full Moon, the moon day before the full moon, and the moon day after the full moon, looks the same with naked eyes. You need telescope or binocular to see the difference in the moon disk. I suppose the average Arabs during the time of Prophet Muhammad was walking with a telescope to find the easy marker. If you remove the calculated full moon reference from you head you will pick the day before or the day after moon as the full moon.
Hmmm... the arabs failed to do this.. by civilizations which predates the arabs by long periods were able to do this.... and moreover, they did it accurately... Such as the mayan calendar.. which remains accurate upto this date.. each eclipse and every moon phases are accurate.. http://www.scribd.com/doc/36215072/Maya-Astronomy
Keep your garbage in your mouth next time! Do not come here to distort facts...
QuoteUnlike you, I have already validated the theory with an experiment. I asked people who knew nothing about the experiment, to identify the moon that appeared one day before the full moon; they said it was a full moon. An error! I did the same with the moon that appeared day after the full moon. They said it was a full moon. Another error. And you call this a clear cut marker. Lies after lies whose root can be traced back to root meaning dictionary.
Seems that according to you... God made an error and every one of us should have been born with telescopic eyes or with a binocular in hand... this is pure bull_____!
Quote from: guest on September 30, 2010, 02:19:39 PM
Hey, I thought you were hiding behind Ayisha?s skirt. You had to come out to make fun of yourself again. Didn?t I tell you that you don?t know the implication of your own writing? Like Ayisha you respond without even understanding the question.
see 33.58
QuoteFor your information the Full Moon, the moon day before the full moon, and the moon day after the full moon, looks the same with naked eyes. You need telescope or binocular to see the difference in the moon disk. I suppose the average Arabs during the time of Prophet Muhammad was walking with a telescope to find the easy marker. If you remove the calculated full moon reference from you head you will pick the day before or the day after moon as the full moon.
Unlike you, I have already validated the theory with an experiment. I asked people who knew nothing about the experiment, to identify the moon that appeared one day before the full moon; they said it was a full moon. An error! I did the same with the moon that appeared day after the full moon. They said it was a full moon. Another error. And you call this a clear cut marker. Lies after lies whose root can be traced back to root meaning dictionary.
confirms Aymans red large red moon that only happens on one day :peace:
Quote from: guest on September 30, 2010, 03:07:55 PM
Peace Ayisha,
I hate to tell you that you don?t know the meaning of synch in this situation. I will leave it at that.
why bother replying if you cant explain why?
QuoteYour own statement proves that the solar calendar is not in synch with the seasons. If it is in perfect sync then you wouldn?t be adding anything to it! The fact that you are adding something tells me that it is out of sync without the additional thing.
Previously you said ?The lunar cycle, the solar cycle and the seasons are from Allah, not a phenomenon. They are prefectly in sync with each other. ?
Now you are saying ??.the Lunar cycle is out of sync with the solar one?. Can you understand these are contradictory statements? You should determine your limit and stay within it!
I would have to go on to embryo steps for you but then you still have a barrier so no point
Quote from: ayman on September 30, 2010, 12:22:33 PM
Peace brother WayFinder,
We don't even need a coin, an egg or an orange :). The god tells us exactly and very simply how to determine the full moon:
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2us79mo.jpg)
84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds.
84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric/full.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2nqe0yh.jpg)
After sunset when the sky is glowing red,
the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction
where the full symmetric moon appears.
Peace Ayman,
Just to make sure, from what you are proposing, i take it that you do equate
والقمر إذا اتسق (wa 'l-qamara Id.aa 'ttasaqa/and the moon when it becomes full) with
شهر (shahr), is this correct?
ed: minor typo
Quote from: WayFinder on September 30, 2010, 04:17:27 PM
No... we know nothing here... you are the only person who knows everything... guess what... I dont know what i am writing right now!
Hmmm... the arabs failed to do this.. by civilizations which predates the arabs by long periods were able to do this.... and moreover, they did it accurately... Such as the mayan calendar.. which remains accurate upto this date.. each eclipse and every moon phases are accurate.. http://www.scribd.com/doc/36215072/Maya-Astronomy
Finally, you spoke the truth: ?I dont know what i am writing right now!?
If you knew what you are writing then you would have known that the clear marker bull ?. you are advocating should require No technological aid to determine the so called clear marker. In other word, regular Joe Schmo should find the marker with their naked eyes. Therefore, when you brought the mayan crap you were contradicting yourself with your dearest clear marker concept. Didn?t I tell you that you don?t know the implication of your own writing?
Quote from: guest on October 01, 2010, 10:04:59 AM
Finally, you spoke the truth: ?I dont know what i am writing right now!?
If you knew what you are writing then you would have known that the clear marker bull ?. you are advocating should require No technological aid to determine the so called clear marker. In other word, regular Joe Schmo should find the marker with their naked eyes. Therefore, when you brought the mayan crap you were contradicting yourself with your dearest clear marker concept. Didn?t I tell you that you don?t know the implication of your own writing?
How was it a contradiction? Sorry... i did not know the mayan had telescopes and satellites in orbit... had i know, it would not have said that!! I am looking forward to read your thesis on the Mayan civilization and their astronomical might for their time. I do not know what I would be without you! :rotfl:
Quote from: hope4 on September 30, 2010, 01:24:42 PM
Peace Ayman
I witnessed the full moon which you are describing in London this year. However, did not really know the significance of what I was seeing until I read your notes. It even made me pull over to the side, get out of my car and watch it in amazment, the redness of the moon and also how big it appeared was breath taking. I just wished I had a camera to capture that moment and share it.
Peace
Peace
If you really want to earn credibility and earn respect for your theory from knowledgeable people then I suggest you do the following:
1. Produce the picture of the moon that appears day before the full moon. Time stamp, background color, and other relevant data.
2. Produce the picture of the full moon. Time stamp, background color, and other relevant data.
3. Produce the picture of the moon that appears day after the full moon. Time stamp, background color, and other relevant data.
4. Do the above three steps for previous moon cycle
5. Do 1-3 steps for next moon cycle
6. Post the data for open review
My prediction: you will not do it because you are not serious about it. Serious people would have already done it with their original publication to validate the theory. You guys are FAKE or don?t know what you are doing! Thus you will earn no respect from good knowledgeable people.
Even if you do the above experiment, you will not publish the data because it will not validate your faulty theory. The evidence will bite your behind real hard.
Peace brother Hope4,
Quote from: hope4 on September 30, 2010, 01:24:42 PMI witnessed the full moon which you are describing in London this year. However, did not really know the significance of what I was seeing until I read your notes. It even made me pull over to the side, get out of my car and watch it in amazment, the redness of the moon and also how big it appeared was breath taking. I just wished I had a camera to capture that moment and share it.
It is an amazing feeling when one lives and experiences the signs in the great reading. It is that awareness that makes us achieve enlightment. I experienced for the first time 84:16-18 this year and became aware of their meaning as they were happening in front of my eyes. The god is great.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: san on September 30, 2010, 10:22:07 PMJust to make sure, from what you are proposing, i take it that you do equate والقمر إذا اتسق (wa 'l-qamara Id.aa 'ttasaqa/and the moon when it becomes full) with شهر (shahr), is this correct?
Yes. :)
Quote from: guest on October 01, 2010, 10:51:39 AM
Peace
If you really want to earn credibility and earn respect for your theory from knowledgeable people then I suggest you do the following:
My prediction: you will not do it because you are not serious about it. Serious people would have already done it with their original publication to validate the theory. You guys are FAKE or don?t know what you are doing! Thus you will earn no respect from good knowledgeable people.
Even if you do the above experiment, you will not publish the data because it will not validate your faulty theory. The evidence will bite your behind real hard.
Selam guest
I am not here to earn credibility or respect. I am not trying to sell anyone here anything which includes any theories. I am only pointing out that out of all the full moons you observe in a year there is a special one. Now try this test if you are truthful, observe all of them from now till october of next year and I will also, and we will talk again inshallah.
But remember guest if you are convinced with your timing method/intepretation of the Quran etc then may Allah bless you and may Allah guide us on the right path.
Peace
I believe the night of destiny " al quadar' is so important and better than a 1000 months because that's the night that the holy spirit started delivering the quran to mohamed, this sourah isn't stressing that night as a night only to be observed for something, because the night of destiny happened in the life of prophet mohamed, and it's stressing how important the quran is, allah says "salamun hiya hatta matlaa alfadjr" what happened when the night of destiny came, the light of dawn had risen, that is the quran for the world, if u guys believe that there's a special night that is mysterious and the spirit and the angels descend in it, than i believe that intead of been rationnel in learning and understanding the quran, u been superstitious, the night of destiny happened on the first night of the start of revelation, peiod.
u might not like it what i'm saying, but there's no magic, no miracles, no oracles, there's normal life, when it's done, you're a dead man at the end, ciao
Quote from: hope4 on October 03, 2010, 07:32:09 PM
Selam guest
I am not here to earn credibility or respect. I am not trying to sell anyone here anything which includes any theories. I am only pointing out that out of all the full moons you observe in a year there is a special one. Now try this test if you are truthful, observe all of them from now till october of next year and I will also, and we will talk again inshallah.
But remember guest if you are convinced with your timing method/intepretation of the Quran etc then may Allah bless you and may Allah guide us on the right path.
Peace
Peace
Like I said you guys are not serious in what you advocate!
What is ?special one? mean. Is it not a subjective definition? You need to provide a clear cut definition and the necessary criteria to determine the ?special one?
Don?t you know you cannot come to a definitive conclusion with a subjective concept? Haven?t you heard of the term ?beauty is in the eye of the beholder?? This is very flimsy approach. It is not recommended!
You cannot ask me to gather evidence for your faulty proposition. It is your responsibility to validate your proposition with proper evidence. Once you present your evidence and if it has any merits then I can further validate your evidence. But I already have the scientific evidence to invalidate your proposition.
Since you proposition is 100% dependent on seeing the clear marker, what do you do if you are unable to see the market due to clouds or some other problems? You don?t fast for that year right. This is absurd. Even more absurd is that you condemn calculation of moon?s phases which is so accurate and consistent with the Quran. Thus your premise is false!