Question for the people with knowledge

[The Sardar]

@noon waalqalami

you keep saying it speaks of all species and not of every individual, so im asking you again, please answer in few basic words : are you claiming some individuals among species are not signs from Allah?

Correct me if i missed something but when i checked Noon's response he mentioned about sub-groups

Groups have subgroups; read exactly as it is written not make erroneous assumptions.

8:22 ان indeed شر worst الدواب l-dawābi/the creatures عند near/with الله the god الصم the deaf البكم the dumb الذىن the ones لا not ىعقلون reasoning

22:75 الله the god ىصطفى designated من mina/from (subset) الملىكه the controllers رسلا messengers of ومن and from (subset) الناس the humankind ان indeed الله the god سمىع hearer بصىر seer

16:49 من min/of دابه dābbatin والملىكه wal-malāikatu

Again i apologize if i have missed something.

[Noon waalqalami]

@noon waalqalami

you keep saying it speaks of all species and not of every individual, so im asking you again, please answer in few basic words : are you claiming some individuals among species are not signs from Allah?

finally please cease saying "kulli", min can speak of all according to context without the need of the word kulli and i showed proof of that earlier

It says of species including humans are sign i.e. assemblies not all individuals or their personalities, etc.
Moreover, there are species in the heavens and earth which humans cannot see ? universe is very large.

42:29 ومن and among اىته signs his خلق creation السموت the heavens والارض and the land وما and what بث disperse فىهما in them dual من min/of دابه dabbatin وهو and he على on جمعهم assembly theirs اذا when ىشا willed قدىر supreme

45:3 ان indeed فى in السموت the heavens والارض and the land لاىت surely signs للمومنىن to the believers 45:4 وفى and in خلقكم creation yours وما and what ىبث dispersed من min/of دابه dābbatin اىت signs لقوم for folk ىوقنون assured being

[The Sardar]

It says of species including humans are sign i.e. assemblies not all individuals or their personalities, etc.
Moreover, there are species in the heavens and earth which humans cannot see ? universe is very large.

42:29 ومن and among اىته signs his خلق creation السموت the heavens والارض and the land وما and what بث disperse فىهما in them dual من min/of دابه dabbatin وهو and he على on جمعهم assembly theirs اذا when ىشا willed قدىر supreme

45:3 ان indeed فى in السموت the heavens والارض and the land لاىت surely signs للمومنىن to the believers 45:4 وفى and in خلقكم creation yours وما and what ىبث dispersed من min/of دابه dābbatin اىت signs لقوم for folk ىوقنون assured being

I wonder how big is the universe. Maybe i will find out in this worldly life or in The Hereafter.

[Ju5]

@noon waalqalami
dont stray from the topic please, this little argument about your metaphoric  interpretation of dabbatin (species, etc) is secondary,  answer to this

This verse is clear , it says "of malaika", so you are right, but :

16:49 says : prostrate what is in the earth and in heavens of creatures and malaika. It clearly means that if any angel or creature lies in earth or in heavens, then it prostrates. Hence it speaks of all of them.This is pretty straightforward and i believe that you are dishonest on purpose but i could be wrong, whatever.

finally please cease saying "kulli", min can speak of all according to context without the need of the word kulli and i showed proof of that earlier

[The Sardar]

@noon waalqalami
dont stray from the topic please, this little argument about your metaphoric  interpretation of dabbatin (species, etc) is secondary,  answer to this

Wait i got lost there, since when Noon's research dabbatin become metaphoric? I checked the root word of dabbatin and this is what it said:

Dal-Ba-Ba = to go gently, crawl/creep/walk, hit, expine, flow, throw.
Whatsoever moves on earth especially beasts of burden, quadraped, beast, moving creature, insect, creature on earth, materialistic person whose endeavors are wholly directed to the acquisition of worldy riches and material comforts and who has fallen on the pleasures of this world with all his might and main.


dabbah n.f. (pl. dawab) 2:164, 6:38, 8:22, 8:55, 11:6, 11:56, 16:49, 16:61, 22:18, 24:45, 27:82, 29:60, 31:10, 34:14, 35:28, 35:45, 42:29, 45:4

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages: 7, 8, 9  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=dbb

[si di]

they Sound like Evil beings to me like gog and magog

[alihawa]

thanks for summarizing bro good logic, i think i understand what happened here

Peace All.
I need to summarise this thread for new readers and others who are wavering or still not sure. The thread needs a summary since it has gone on a bit in my opinion:
Ju5 claimed 2:34 and 16:49 contradict because of two things
1-Iblees is a Malaika but refused an order from GOD.2:34
2-Malaika are not arrogant, reverence GOD and obey GOD s orders.

and

Brother Noon gave him the following summary:
1-Al Malaika in 16:49 are a certain group, It does not say "Kullu" all of them.
2- He gave examples from Qoran to confirm this.
This is another example: Qoran says:Wa Ma MANAA Al- Naas AN Yuminu...Illa An Kalu Abaatha Allah Bacharan Rasoola" -What has stopped the peole from believing ...because theyb said why does GOD send a human like us as messenger.
In here even though it says "AL-NAAS" it does not mean all the people because surely few always believe.

Ju5 kept sticking to his view that all Malaika obey if Iblees disobeyed ,then there is a contradiction.
Ju5 has also said, as a summary, the following:
1-He/She does not know if Malaika have got free will .
2-He/She does not care about other verses in Qoran or context.
3- He/she did not bring a  single other verse that confirms clearly Iblees is a Malaika other than 2:34, yet there is other verses that confirm Iblees is from Jinn.

i agree with ju5 that iblees is malaika, Q 2:34 is enough to indicate that.

the problem lies in the phrase "wahum la yastakbirūna" (and they are not arrogant) in the end of Q 16:49. here bro ju5 assume that the word "wahum" (they) is referring to all malaika, thus make this verse contradict with Q 2:34.

bro Noon already explain that the word "min" means "some of", so the word "wahum" in Q 16:49 can not be referred to all malaika, but only to some malaika. but i don't see where bro Noon explain which malaika that are referred in Q16:49, if it is not all malaika ( ju5 asked about this question also)

from my understanding "wahum" in Q 16:49 refers to sujud-ing malaika and all dabba, not all malaika and all dabba. it fits to bro Noon explanation about the word "min" and fit with the rest of the verse which basically says : all dabba and some of malaika in heaven and earth sujud to Allah and they are not arrogant

please let me clarify my understanding.
1. iblees is malaika and a jinn. malaika is a role (role of controller) and jinn is a trait or characteristic (being hidden). so basically iblees is a hidden malaika (just like other malaika). it is similar to a statement : ju5 is a teacher and he is smart. ju5 is a smart teacher
2. malaika has free will. iblees is a plain example. other case where freewill is exercise is by bad malaika is the case of harut and marut in Q 2:102-103. why else they teach human about something that has no benefit ? other then supporting Iblees plan/promise to mankind? another example is when malaika questions ALLAH's decision prior to creating Adam, which we all are familiar with.

i thank bro ju5 for presenting this case, so that i can learn and expand my understanding about Quran.

if God allowed, i will look up bro ju5 original finding in

I have looked at the skeptic annotated qur'an and found most contradictions debatable/about bad translations/interpretations/blatantly false, but this, i can't refute. Anyone with explanations ?
Don't answer if don't know please, i don't want mental gymnasts and people who follow rumors and speak of what they do not know to pollute the topic. Just plain logic and knowledge in pursuit of truth, and no hate.

Heaven then earth
79:27   Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
79:28   He raised its height, and perfected it.
79:29   And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
79:30   And the land after that He spread out.
79:31   He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
79:32   And the mountains He fixed firmly.

Earth then heaven
41:9   Say: "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
41:10   And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
41:11   Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth: "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We come willingly."
41:12   Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Second,
people here say that Injil is indeed an arabic word and not greek words(good news), and that the Injil is not the gospel, and that Isa is not Jesus, but i found a post that make this position very hard to defend, which i am quoting here (by "youssef4342") :
It would be quite farfetched to say that Isa is not Jesus and that the gospel is not the injil (what would be that injil that is mentioned several times? Why would the gospels would not be mentioned as they are the scriptures of christians ?  Wikipedia :

The Arabic word Injil (إنجيل) as found in Islamic texts, and now used also by Muslim non-Arabs and Arab non-Muslims, is derived from the Syriac Aramaic word awongaleeyoon (ܐܘܢܓܠܝܘܢ) found in the Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Bible),[1] which in turn derives from the Greek word euangelion (Εὐαγγέλιον)[2] of the originally Greek language New Testament, where it means "good news" (from Greek "Εὐ αγγέλιον"; Old English "gōdspel"

Please note also that Mary in the gospel is not called Miriam, but Mariam (the aramaic form of Miriam). She is also called Mariam in the Qur'an.

Now, if Jesus is Isa :-it is quite striking than his mother Mariam has a father called Imran and a brother called Harun (Aaron), while the Miriam of the Torah is also sister to Aaron and daughter to Amram. This may be a confusion between Miriam from the Torah and Mariam from the gospels.

If anyone has the answer please share

and other findings in here

because the article was long, and because i was talking about plural of hands in the thieves and the lies/inventions around this,  not about the baseless speculation(you can always speculate and invent things indefinitely), and anyway i answered to those because of you

the real question you should be wondering is why are you all dishonest when the subject is the qur'an? answer : because you want to believe

i don't know if its the best website, but it sure does his job referencing the occurences of words in the qur'an

now, as i wage war against the qur'an are you going to cut my feet/hands opposed or crucify me like a good muslim? or will you disobey allah and twist his command?

since noone has correct answsers for my accusations, i will add even more


1    39:53 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins
4:48 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills
One could say : he forgives shirk once you repent. But isn't that true of all sins? then why bother saying that allah does not forgive shirk/association?



2    58:22 You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred.
31:15(about parents) But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness


3    41:16 Aad is destroyed in days of misfortune
54:19 Aad is destroyed in a day of misfortune
69:7 Aad is destroyed in seven nights and eight days of misfortune


4    7:120 Firaun wizards believe in musa
10:80 None believed Musa save the offspring among his people


5    The qur'an is not clear, proof=the existence of all these discussion on this forum.


6    God gave the Gospel To Jesus which doesn't make sense. You can argue all day long about it, it is the most probable meaning injil=good news, the kitab word=book. Christians can find the name of Muhammad in it(qur'an says so). You say it doesn't make sense on the false premise that the qur'an is perfect and true.


7    Israel means "who wrestled with god" as jacob fought him, see the bible story. He called the place "the face of god" because he saw him. And God renamed him Israel. "Who wrestled with god". Unqur'anic to say the least, but still mentioned as Israel.



8    16:49   And to God prostrate all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, from the creatures and the angels, and they are not arrogant.
16:50   They fear their Lord from above them, and they do what they are commanded.

2:34 And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
Note: if you say iblis is a jinn not an angel, learn grammar. Allah gives an orders to angels and all obey save Iblis. Nothing more, nothing less.




God may very well exist regardless of religions or not.
Maybe there was a perfect qur'an. Maybe there wasn't. One thing is sure, our qur'an is not.

Last hint of this post, if you think the qur'an can not contradict itself. then it will never contradict itself. Because of you. It is all in your mind.