Muhammadian vs Quranist

[Shah Khan]

السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ
(May God shower his peace, mercy and blessings upon you all)

Do you believers agree with this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg503Bt0njE

جزاك اللهُ خيراً
(May God reward you all with Goodness)

[good logic]

Why Muhammadan or Qoranist or any other sect ?
If one believes Qoran is from GOD that means they have GOD s words with them, Then: IS IT NOT ENOUGH FOR THEM THAT  GOD HAS SENT HIS WORDS TO THEM  TO HEAR ,STUDY AND PONDER?

Who s words can match GOD s words ?

What argument can anyone put forward to accept other words above/ besides GOD s?
If on the other hand GOD s words have lesser value than man s words ,then GOD is not valued or deserves to be valued in this case.

Case closed for following any other words besides GOD Alone words

Who is better at telling us the truth?.

So the situation now changes to : GOD s words v  man s words?
GOD bless.
Peace.

[hawk99]

So the situation now changes to : GOD s words v  man s words?
GOD bless.
Peace.

Indeed


Those are the signs of God that we recite to you with truth, then in what hadith after God and His signs do they believe?(45:6)

God bless you                                                             

[Fusion]

Indeed the only hadeeth is the word of God-Quran.

I would like to ask one hypothetical question to my friends here, for my own satisfaction.

Lets suppose we are in the time of prophet Mohammad and we witness the Wahi and the whole period of struggle and everything and we are his close companions or say living in the same city.
Lets suppose we see prophet himself HEAR ,STUDY AND PONDER(good logic words) and interpret God's words Quran and follows a direction into a physical implementation  (be it form of any rituals ; pray;fast;hajj etc).

Should we have then followed the prophet like exact copy his actions; OR
Should we resort to thinking that so and so are his own interpretations and we are free to interpret the verses as we see fit (for example the way we discuss here the very concept of Salat, fast)?

My point is that prophet may have also gone though the same process and must have reached to a conclusion of how these verses of Quran should be taken into actions or there true meanings Right?

So if the answer is Yes i.e. we are supposed or even ordered by God to follow the prophet (again we are during his time and close to him in day in day out) then the only issue which is left is that we are NOT in prophet time and we can't take man made so called books of hadiths that shows his life and also how he has understood those verses or taken into context of prayer, fast (12 days 10 days, month) or Hajj (which months etc) and list goes  on and on. is not it?

OR You guys are of the opinion that even if we were in his time, the message of God-Quran is to be taken by our own intellect individually and despite seeing prophet actions, we will still interpret the verses based on our own judgement and understanding?

My own belief is that if we were in his time, it would have been more practical life in our daily routines rather than we ponder into the debate of what these verses mean. Like any prophet nations during his life time, we would simply follow the prophet words/actions?

Please advise as per your own understanding if you get my hypothetical question?

[good logic]

Peace Fusion.
I will take us back to just few days into the prophet s messenger-ship and add few more questions to yours:

1- what did they make of the first few verses? read them to each other and reflect on them? ask questions to the prophet about any issues and help each other sort it? or did the prophet know everything and he alone had the answers?

2- does Qoran not have lots of these issue questions to the prophet and GOD was giving them the answers? like they ask you about such...Say sch and such...etc.

3- How could the prophet understand things not yet sent down to him? The process must have been gradual and pondered/debated as verses were coming down gradually over time or not?
4- what was  relevant TO THE FUTURE GENERATIONS LIKE SECRETS OF MORE KNOWLEDGE TO COME and could not have been understood properly or understood differently in that generation? Or did they understand all the verses perfectly AND HAD MORE KNOWLEDGE AND TOOLS OTHER GENERATIONS TO COME WILL AQCUIRE over then?
5- Are there verses now we read and understand -us this generation= differently than they have done because we live in a new Science and technology era?

My view is that the prophet s generation, under his leadership, wrestled with the verses of Qoran and tried to use their intellect, means they had and knowledge of that time plus GOD s help to understand what they could from it.
Following generations either followed them with their understanding or had more knowledge to understand other verses better.
Our generation is also pondering and either satisfied with what their forefathers understood or using the means we have to understand the verses better with our Science , intellect, reasoning and comparisons.

Remember the copying of the generations is done by both the believers and  hypocrites believers. Two sides trying to assert and spread their side . Some will mix and match . GOD s test to all the generations and with  each other is ongoing.
And the system of GOD  v systems of men will continue into the future generations...

Qoran is continuing its role of messenger from the prophet s generation into all the following generations until the end

GOD has given each one of us the eyes, ears and brain and made us responsible for their use. How can the most knowledgeable expect His servants not to use their intellect? ...i.e search, ask questions .learn more and be very curious about our role in the life we are given.
I find Qoran is made to wake our intellect.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Indeed the only hadeeth is the word of God-Quran.

I would like to ask one hypothetical question to my friends here, for my own satisfaction.

Lets suppose we are in the time of prophet Mohammad and we witness the Wahi and the whole period of struggle and everything and we are his close companions or say living in the same city.
Lets suppose we see prophet himself HEAR ,STUDY AND PONDER(good logic words) and interpret God's words Quran and follows a direction into a physical implementation  (be it form of any rituals ; pray;fast;hajj etc).

Should we have then followed the prophet like exact copy his actions; OR
Should we resort to thinking that so and so are his own interpretations and we are free to interpret the verses as we see fit (for example the way we discuss here the very concept of Salat, fast)?

My point is that prophet may have also gone though the same process and must have reached to a conclusion of how these verses of Quran should be taken into actions or there true meanings Right?

So if the answer is Yes i.e. we are supposed or even ordered by God to follow the prophet (again we are during his time and close to him in day in day out) then the only issue which is left is that we are NOT in prophet time and we can't take man made so called books of hadiths that shows his life and also how he has understood those verses or taken into context of prayer, fast (12 days 10 days, month) or Hajj (which months etc) and list goes  on and on. is not it?

OR You guys are of the opinion that even if we were in his time, the message of God-Quran is to be taken by our own intellect individually and despite seeing prophet actions, we will still interpret the verses based on our own judgement and understanding?

My own belief is that if we were in his time, it would have been more practical life in our daily routines rather than we ponder into the debate of what these verses mean. Like any prophet nations during his life time, we would simply follow the prophet words/actions?

Please advise as per your own understanding if you get my hypothetical question?

47:24 "Do they not then think deeply in the Quran, or are their hearts locked up (from understanding it)?"

Quran was revealed to a human being to deliver to people and to answer to their questions through Quran and not to give their personal opinion leaving Quran aside.. Muhamed was one of those messengers who did this like all prophetic Messengers in the past..

If muhammed can explain everything then why in the above verse God questions to deeply explore QURAN or our hearts locked up...  If Mohammed elaborated everything apart from literal quran and his understanding on top of it then why one need to explore Quran?  What is the outcome of exploring QURAN?  To go against what Mohamed and fabricated Hadith so say.. Reflect people.. Muhamed did his job.. That's immaculate..  God brought answers to all questions people possibly asked and it was revealed to them through the mouth of Mohammed.. But it is not his own words...

" ... When the Quran is being revealed if you ask... """  ... So clear..  Fulstop after or before Quran was revealed.. So all questions answered while Quran revealed..

@shaikrafaq..

Your blind belief has not taken you anywhere and you authorize others to believe in a book for that God has not given any authority and clear verses of God you deny in day light..

4:136 "O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."

Do you really perceive what is written above.. And how strong the verse is...  Where is hadith book here?  Did God forget?  Or you know better than God?  Or you love fabrication..?  Or you think Quran not enough or understandable?  Or you are brainwashed and in  a dilemma and draging others also to it?

According to above verse we do reject your offensive hadith books br it shia or Sunni or whatever.. You are violating the basic of basics of God's command..  How could you?  Or are you intentional?  How much you try you can't divert true believers.. Coz they were like you before and they found the guidance and they love the guidance.. But you found what your ancestors doing and you love it.. Don't you...?

Main problem with you and millions of conventional Muslim is you look in Quran answers to what you practice in life fornthqt you don't have answers in Quran  so even they have knowledge they prefer to practice hadith coz you found answers in hadith forum what you practice even it is misguidance it doesnt matter..  .. What a Shame.. Failing to use own intellect..

[Fusion]

Thanks to both of you for providing with your opinions on my queries. Indeed it is clear that even in those times, the message was revealed to the whole community to ponder and understand these verses based on the senses that god has blessed humans with. As you mentioned they had additional benefit with prophet being among them as well.

Now I have a question that what was the role of the prophet then? (besides being a messenger). I mean there are several verses where it was mentioned to follow the prophet (my context here are people who are present when prophet was living so no hadith books). Does prophet was just a microphone? or he played a lot bigger role? in day to day life am sure he would be meeting with muslims, teaching them the god messages, showing them by examples. There were probably battles took place where prophet and his companions work together and then several other social issues came... point is atlease in prophet time, the society should have been consolidated into better common understanding, is not it? or even in those times we will have multiple sects coming up with different explanations of the different events of Quran (be it zulqarnain, khidir, people of caves etc). If i was there i would have certainly ask the prophet about these things being given a logical mind by almighty?

Again am just asking hypothetically, about the practical implications of being a musim during prophets time.. of course you guys are not there but my point being that prophet role could not only be a microphone to deliver god message but should have been lot more to lead my example in all aspects of life.  I hope am able to explain my query?

thanks

[jkhan]

Thanks to both of you for providing with your opinions on my queries. Indeed it is clear that even in those times, the message was revealed to the whole community to ponder and understand these verses based on the senses that god has blessed humans with. As you mentioned they had additional benefit with prophet being among them as well.

Now I have a question that what was the role of the prophet then? (besides being a messenger). I mean there are several verses where it was mentioned to follow the prophet (my context here are people who are present when prophet was living so no hadith books). Does prophet was just a microphone? or he played a lot bigger role? in day to day life am sure he would be meeting with muslims, teaching them the god messages, showing them by examples. There were probably battles took place where prophet and his companions work together and then several other social issues came... point is atlease in prophet time, the society should have been consolidated into better common understanding, is not it? or even in those times we will have multiple sects coming up with different explanations of the different events of Quran (be it zulqarnain, khidir, people of caves etc). If i was there i would have certainly ask the prophet about these things being given a logical mind by almighty?

Again am just asking hypothetically, about the practical implications of being a musim during prophets time.. of course you guys are not there but my point being that prophet role could not only be a microphone to deliver god message but should have been lot more to lead my example in all aspects of life.  I hope am able to explain my query?

thanks

Salam Fusion..
I don't know who you address here.. Anyway... If you apply some sense you would get it...
Why God choose prophets and give them more respect in society...  A big job of delivering the message in right way.. He as a human was the Harald gor Allah's message...  First he has to be good in his all behavior and trust and good rapport with people.  If he is not got those qualities people would have moved away from him first regardless of whose message he got... 
Suppose even one has best quality of fruits in his shop if he is a bad person and behave badly with people who come to the shop then people don't mind about the quality of fruits he has got but people would disgust to enter the shop first...
Allah gradually delivered His message and initially He straightened Prophets heart.. First he should get convinced... If Mohammed became weak how he will ever deliver in truth... Do you think it was an easy task over a period of long time with all situations and complications and hatred and enmity and opposition in the society... God's sunnah OR way of delivering His message is only through a human messenger to people until it became as a book.. Apply some sense brother rather lean towards negative aspects... Suppose if you receive a call from God to deliver the same what Prophet  did over a long period of time to a community that was worse, how would you have reacted.. Was it easy..?  Was he just what did you say microphone  OR a parrot. .? How silly that for a moment.. Sorry.. But that was nonsensical entirely neglecting the scenario...

Quran was not revealed as Mohammed wished.. But as God willed at right time with right answers to suit right questions and overcome all their questions... Imagine.. Just take a mental trip towards prophets era and reflect...

He was not a postman.. He was not a delivery boy.. He was committed to the service of God's  message... He represented God to utter His words to people... After reading so much of Quran hoe could you ask this kind of a question...  Something seriously wrong with you... Better you scan yourself before it goes out of your hand...

When God says in verses like " They ask you... "... Very crucial... Meticulously ponder... Questions are already asked.. But prophet ie  Mohamed human being didn't answer them... When did he answer then?  He answers when God revealed by "Say to them".. So prophet as a messenger here doeant need to be parrot...  He would definitely communicate with people with God's answer...
Take any example... And ponder.. Qul ya ayyuhal Kafirun...  Does that mean prophet wpuld go. And tell to disbelievers Qul.. Ya ayyuhal kafir... No way.. He was the link between people and God.. Passing message and writing down and memorizing quran is different... Write down what exactly came to prophet.. It was his duty and memorize IN order he can answer people with right message from right verse..
How many things a prophet being a messnsger had to do.. Was he a microphone?  So pathetic your wording..
Anyway... Now we have the entire message... Now Messenger is QURAN for us... Quran was MESSENGER for them..do you copy that?  Slight doubt it harboring doubt would lead to the path of Satan without knowing to us..
Don't ever speak anything against wonderful messnsger.. And he is innocent from all what people practice.. He did his job.. 
Thank you... Calm and reflect.  ...

[good logic]

Peace Fusion.
You say ,quote:
"I mean there are several verses where it was mentioned to follow the prophet (my context here are people who are present when prophet was living so no hadith books). Does prophet was just a microphone? or he played a lot bigger role? in day to day life am sure he would be meeting with muslims, teaching them the god messages, showing them by examples. "

GOD  uses His words carefully and deliberately to make sure there are no contradictions . I cannot find "obey the prophet" even once in Qoran.
All the verses are "obey the messenger" .There is a difference between prophet and messenger. Prophet is the 24  hour man that says his own words . Messenger only speaks/delivers the message .
Also Qoran itself is referred to as the messenger in other verses.
GOD wants to confirm for us that messenger= message of GOD. i.e only what GOD has  revealed  and set as laws must be obeyed.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[tlihawa]

Salam Fusion,

OR You guys are of the opinion that even if we were in his time, the message of God-Quran is to be taken by our own intellect individually and despite seeing prophet actions, we will still interpret the verses based on our own judgement and understanding?

My own belief is that if we were in his time, it would have been more practical life in our daily routines rather than we ponder into the debate of what these verses mean. Like any prophet nations during his life time, we would simply follow the prophet words/actions?

Please advise as per your own understanding if you get my hypothetical question?

3:7   He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are fixed verses-they are the Mother of the Book-and others which are comparable. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they follow that of it which is comparable, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.

When this verse was revealed, the prophet Muhammad was still alive. And that did not prevent those whose hearts only have a passion for conflict over interpretations, from imposing their interpretations on others.

The same thing you can probably see to this day, maybe even in this forum.

Allah's instructions are very clear that he is the one who will teach the Qur'an,

55:1   The Almighty.
55:2   He has taught the Qur'an.
55:3   He has created man.
55:4   He taught him the explanations.

What we have to do is consistently study and be patient so that Allah brings the best interpretation,

25:33   And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.

But if you notice that the verses that are always debated are just that.

They only argue for a small portion of the Quran, while most of the verses of the Quran that must be implemented are clear verses (Muhkamat) that talk about the one God, the last day, and how to do good, give money that you love to the needy, feed and clothe the poor and restrain the crime by not eating other people's money in the wrong way, measuring and weighing fairly in business, and so on.

Allah always reminds us to start from something that is easy for us, like the things I mentioned earlier.

73:20   ......So read what is made easy of the Qur'an. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that go forth in the land seeking from the bounty of God, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so read what you can of it. ...

Allah knows that our capabilities are not the same. Some are very busy with work, some are sick, and so on. And not everyone is able to dig deep meaning by opening a dictionary, corpus, compiling context, play with numbers, etc, due to limited education and access to knowledge.

Carrying out the Muhkamat verses is super enough to save people from the Hellfire.

Hope this helps.

Peace