Now Iran did it!

[zenje]

Oppy,

I wonder what all of you who do not see the value of the USA liberating Iraq would say about the early muslims invading other regions 1400 years ago

.
Perhaps if you'd stop watching fox and wake up, you'd see that there's nothing liberating at all about this whole war. Hint - Watch Control Room (documentary) and Democracy Now (Independent station)... but I guess you already know

I pray to God that Bush wins and does what I wan't him to do which is liberate all of the Middle East and Iran so maybe in 10-20 years from now they might have a chance to even come close to the rest of the civililzed countries.

Civilized?... :roll:

Muslims did a horrible job of creating a good goverance system. Two of the four Calphates were killed and not all of its citizens were equal under the law that were liberated from China to Spain.

Oh.. I get it now. :lol:

[savage_carrot]

Oppy,

Just read your post now, google muslim contributions in history and look what you come up with:

So let's do a brief review of the contribution of Islam to the civilization as we know it:

Invention of the Zero

First of all, the zero was invented by Muhammad Ibn Musa, who was also the first to use the Decimal Point notation.
Great Historian Gibbons: He wrote in his fifth volume of "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" that the science of Chemistry owes its origin and improvements to the Muslims.

Trigonometry / Sine / Tangent / Co. - Tangent

The Arabs developed these and Ibn Musa's work "Hisab-Al Jab-Wal Muqabala" (meaning the Calculation of Integration and Equation) presented 800 examples in the eight century. His work was translated from Arabic into Latin and until the 16th century, it was Europe's main textbook on the subject.

Geometry / Algebra

Another great mathematician was Omar Khayyam, who offered to the world geometric as well as algebraic solutions of the second degree. Nasiruddin wrote the treatise on the quadrilateral trigonometry, as well as plain and spherical geometry.

Physics

Kamaluddin examined the refraction of sunlight in rain drops and actually offered an explanation of the genesis of primary and secondary rainbows. The story of the invention of the pendulum and the presentation of a water clock to Emperor Charlemagne by Harun Al Rashid is well known.

Science of Mechanics

The development of science of Mechanics in Islam is an act of genius. Musa Ibn Shakir described one hundred pieces of mechanical equipment in his book of artifices. Other outstanding Muslim treatises included "Al Kitab Fi Marifat Al Hiya Al Handasiyya" (The Book of the Knowledge of Ingenious Geometrical Contrivances" by Abul Fiaz Ibn Al Raz. Al Kitab Mizanal Hikmah (The book of the Balance and Wisdom by Al Khazini). He also did work on accurate weighing, determination of specific Gravity.

Camera Obscura

In the field of optics, Camera Obscura was invented by Ibm Haitham in 1038 AD. Incidentally, Ghous Paak was born in the year 1077 AD.

Theory of Relativity

Qazi Abu Bakr had developed the theory of relativity in the Eighth Century in terms of time and space by means of mathematical equations and Astrophysics. Imagine, Einstein wasn't even born in the western world, who propounded the same theory of relativity in the Twentieth Century.

Geography

As far as Geography was concerned, the Muslim Scientists established in the ninth century that the world was round and under the Caliphate of Ma'mun, the first map of the globe was made.

Paper Makings

This was one of the earliest skills attained by the Muslims. As early as the Eighth Century, high quality paper was being manufactured in Samarkand. Egypt was known to have its first paper mill in the year 900 A.C. The earliest Arabic manuscript written on paper that has been discovered is the Gharib Al Hadith by Abu Ubayed, dated 837 A.C. It can be seen in Holland preserved in the Library of University of Leyden.

Advances in the Industry

Spain under the Islamic rule was an industrial centre. It was one of the wealthiest and thickly populated of European countries. Muslims were leading in Weaving Wool, Silk, Home Pottery, Jewelry, Leather and Perfume Industry. In the middle ages, the world trade was commanded by the Muslims, and Baghdad, Bukhara and Samarkand remained centers for world fairs until the 16th Century. The Bait Al Hikmah at Cairo contained 2 Million books, the library at Tripoli contained some 3 Millions but this library was burned down by the Christians during the first crusade.

http://islamweb.net/php/php_arabic/readArt.php?lang=E&id=54617

Where were the western civilization in the middle/dark ages?? Oh let me think...searching for the holy grail?? Have you seen Monty Python by any chance??

[Mystic]

The Muslims were a great civilization before. However many Muslims began to get lazy afterwards and the West began to pick up where we left off. That's why we are no longer in power

[Oppy]

Let me address the points that were raised about my comments

YankeeDoodle - Bush is not evil and is not part of the axis of evil. I would like to know what you called Sadam's invasion of Kuwait or going back to when Ottmans invaded Vienna 500 years ago. Were they agressors or liberators? :wink:
The USA did learn from Vietnam and now is better at war. To bad I can not say that muslims/arabs learn from their mistakes since they lose every war in record time.

Wakas/Zenje/ Savage_carrot - I consider myself a very well read person. I visit daily many arab, muslim, Fox, CNN, etc and I come to conlusions based on the facts and not speculation.

As far the at "inventions" that you all proceeded to list about are unfortunately not. They are simple discoveries as part of science and math. By itself it does not lead to a product that humans can use. These discoveries were later used in conjunction with thousands of little discoveries by many races (mostly the west) all over the world to come with many of today's inventions/products.

I have not doubt in mind that some other humans would have come with these discoveries at some point that the muslims found.

One of the main reason that you missing is that the reason the USA is the leading industrial nation that invented (planes, cars, TV, Radio, Phone, etc) is because of FREEDOM to invent and be able to use your invention to make money and no one can steal it or copy it.  

Muslim civilization did not have any such thoughts about freedom or system of goverance to reward inventors and give them help them. No free market system or anything to encourage them.

Also muslims had a strict interpretations of the religion like for example that the dead had to be buried immediately and could never be used to study human anatomy. So thank God for the other races/religions that did not consider such a thing otherwise how would have we learned how to do operations to save people.

Yes muslims did some good in the begining but that was during too short of a time period and has no value in today's huge world of immense needs and challenges. :?

[zenje]

Oppy, you have no idea what free-minds is about do you? :lol:

[savage_carrot]

I consider myself a very well read person. I visit daily many arab, muslim, Fox, CNN, etc and I come to conlusions based on the facts and not speculation.

I'm glad you decided to inform us of this fact, one could have easily thought differently... :lol:

As far the at "inventions" that you all proceeded to list about are unfortunately not. They are simple discoveries as part of science and math. By itself it does not lead to a product that humans can use. These discoveries were later used in conjunction with thousands of little discoveries by many races (mostly the west) all over the world to come with many of today's inventions/products.

Meaning of invention:

Noun 1. invention - the creation of something in the mind
excogitation, innovation, conception, design
creative thinking, creativeness, creativity - the ability to create

       2. invention - a creation (a new device or process) resulting from   study and experimentation
innovation
creation - an artifact that has been brought into existence by someone
 
       3. invention - the act of inventing
creating by mental acts - the act of creating something by thinking
neologism, neology, coinage - the act of inventing a word or phrase
devisal, contrivance - the act of devising something

Please regale us with your defination of invention...look forward to reading it...

I have not doubt in mind that some other humans would have come with these discoveries at some point that the muslims found.

But the point is, the muslims did...

One of the main reason that you missing is that the reason the USA is the leading industrial nation that invented (planes, cars, TV, Radio, Phone, etc) is because of FREEDOM to invent and be able to use your invention to make money and no one can steal it or copy it.

These inventions of the muslims occurred quite miraculously then, i take it, maybe they too had FREEDOM to invent eh??

Also muslims had a strict interpretations of the religion like for example that the dead had to be buried immediately and could never be used to study human anatomy.

Seeing as how you are a well read person, maybe you can once again research into muslim advances in the fields of medicine and anatomy or do you want me to search for you?? It's not that difficult, google is a breath away...

Yes muslims did some good in the begining but that was during too short of a time period and has no value in today's huge world of immense needs and challenges.

Every civilization has it's ups and downs...every country its ebb and flow...
Refusing to awknowledge the muslim contribution to the world is a point of view full of error...granted they are in a bad position now..but their contributions are their contributions...that good in the beginning is in all the fields of sciences and other fields like governance and justice which have now evolved with the same basics...and their fall is a seperate topic entirely...

Regarding governace and justice, can you please look up the crusades and what the christians did when they came to jerusulem and how saladin acted in his victory??

But the victorious Saladin forbade acts of vengeance. There were no more deaths, no violence. A token ransom was arranged for the thousands of residents. Saladin and his brother paid for hundreds of the poorest themselves and arranged guards for the caravans of refugees.

Sound familiar? If not, don't feel bad. Saladin doesn't get much play in Western history books. You're more likely to read about Richard the Lion-Hearted, the leader of the European expedition to retake Jerusalem?and even he is most often remembered as a peripheral character in Robin Hood tales. But ask most Muslims, and they'll tell you all about Saladin and his generosity in the face of Christian aggression and hatred. And they'll be right.

http://www.submission.org/christians/crusades.html

[lrhazi]

As far the at "inventions" that you all proceeded to list about are unfortunately not. They are simple discoveries as part of science and math. By itself it does not lead to a product that humans can use. These discoveries were later used in conjunction with thousands of little discoveries by many races (mostly the west) all over the world to come with many of today's inventions/products.

Salam Oppy, Please dont take it personaly, but the above statements are pure ignorance of science and of the history of science.

I have not doubt in mind that some other humans would have come with these discoveries at some point that the muslims found.

The above, on the other hand, is a honest and correct assumption.

Peace,
Mohamed~

[YankeeDoodle]

Ooppy wrote:

I would like to know what you called Sadam's invasion of Kuwait....

Lets talk about Iraq,USA,Saddam and Bush.Leave ottoman out of this for the time being.
I fully agree with you Saddam and his army did aggress and dishonor the sovereignty of Kuwait.Kuwait was right to seek help from the UN to reclaim their land annexed by Iraq.In so doing the Americans made great contributions to liberate the country Kuwait from its oppressors and aggressors.That was under the leadership of Bush Senior.The Iraqis under Saddam then had paid a heavy price for their mistake to have  awaken a sleeping Giant once again by invading Kuwait.Now after 911,to cook up a reason or cause why Saddam and Iraq should not be further punish because according to CIA and Bush like Osama ,Saddam has that terrorist mentality being an Ultra Arab:meaning  also dare to aggress and oppress for lust or whatever to achieve their goal.This is where I cannot agree with you for reasons stated below.

Main Entry: sanc?tion
Pronunciation: 'sa[ng]k-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : a punitive or coercive measure or action that results from failure to comply with a law, rule, or order <a sanction for contempt>
2 : explicit or official approval
3 : an economic or military coercive measure adopted usually by several nations in concert for forcing a nation violating international law to desist or yield to adjudication

The Iraqis were being sanctioned for years leaving them to bleed and rot to death by the US led of the UN agreement.

Quote:
[22:60] It is decreed that if one avenges an injustice that was inflicted upon him, equitably, then he is persecuted because of this, GOD will surely support him. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiving.
[42:41] Certainly, those who stand up for their rights, when injustice befalls them, are not committing any error.
[42:42] The wrong ones are those who treat the people unjustly, and resort to aggression without provocation. These have incurred a painful retribution.

As such my wish and hope for Iraq is may the God protect the innocent people there from aggression of foreign powers under the banner of UN. They are hell bent on undermining its freedom and sovereignty on the pretext of liberating them from the Bushes newly coined word 'axis of evil'.As for thinking about Iran "No way Jose" Jimmy Carter/Ronald Reagan presidency goofed once on his first attempt to rescue hostages during the fall of the Shah.
In 1980, the death of the shah in Egypt and the invasion of Iran by Iraq  made the Iranians more receptive to resolving the hostage crisis. In the United States, failure to resolve the crisis contributed to Ronald Reagan's defeat of Carter in the presidential election. After the election, with the assistance of Algerian intermediaries, successful negotiations began. On Jan. 20, 1981, the day of President Reagan's inauguration, the United States released almost $8 billion in Iranian assets and the hostages were freed after 444 days in Iranian detention; the agreement gave Iran immunity from lawsuits arising from the incident.
N.B. for those here who like to juggle with numbers ,the number 4(four) connotes death in Chinese.


cheers.

[Oppy]

Oppy, you have no idea what free-minds is about do you? :lol:

Zenje,

Please enlighten me  :wink:

[Oppy]

Refusing to awknowledge the muslim contribution to the world is a point of view full of error

I am not taking the extreme postion that everything they ever did was worthless and meaningless. They did have a productive society at some point and that is well understood and documented.

Everyone if getting off track here to my main point.

Bottom line is that the muslim system of governance and social order failed

We need a replacement and it is NOT going back to that period but looking forward to a new system called freemarket and freedoom of religion, thought, press, rule of law, etc.

On their own the muslims will NOT invent this system. They need others to show them. Nothing wrong with that. Look at Germany and Japan after USA showed them how it is done even if it means war.

The nations that adopted this system have invented (any defention you want ) so many things that is not even close to compare to the muslim inventions. It would be a joke to compare.

Do you want to use the same system of the early muslims? If yes, then we disagree completely

Peace