Muhammadian vs Quranist

[Fusion]

Thanks for every one, appreciate it.

[Kaddie]

bismillah
-simply put, we need not analyze the importance of Muhammad (saw) to the ummah
-Allah 'taala stressed his importance:
-so, His words are enough verification for us, the Ummah of Muhammad (pbuh)

Quran tells us what to do and Hadeeth tells us how to do (what) was told in Quran
-we cannot have one without the other
-Quran and hadith are both important to the life of the Ummah
-to our lives as Muslims
-we can't allow any to stress importance of one over the other
-or shaytaan will try his wiles with us to cause division,
-though Allah 'taala put no division

.. and as always, He SWT knows best, not me.

[good logic]

Peace Kaddie
You say this, quote:
"Quran tells us what to do and Hadeeth tells us how to do (what) was told in Quran
-we cannot have one without the other
-Quran and hadith are both important to the life of the Ummah
-to our lives as Muslims
-we can't allow any to stress importance of one over the other
-or shaytaan will try his wiles with us to cause division,
-though Allah 'taala put no division"

How about Qoran is the message from Allah It does not require another message from another source to be complete. i.e no partners to complete GOD s message.
Simply Qoran is both what and how to do.
Putting any partner/authority with GOD s message is taking on another god beside Allah Alone. i.e idol worship.

Enlightenments have come to you from your Lord. As for those who can see, they do so for their own good, and those who turn blind, do so to their own detriment. I am not your guardian.
قَد جاءَكُم بَصائِرُ مِن رَبِّكُم فَمَن أَبصَرَ فَلِنَفسِهِ وَمَن عَمِىَ فَعَلَيها وَما أَنا۠ عَلَيكُم بِحَفيظٍ
We thus explain the revelations, to prove that you have received/studied knowledge -from GOD s message-, and to clarify them for people who know.
وَكَذٰلِكَ نُصَرِّفُ الـٔايٰتِ وَلِيَقولوا دَرَستَ وَلِنُبَيِّنَهُ لِقَومٍ يَعلَمونَ
Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord,(only GOD s message/-Qoran-) there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers.
اتَّبِع ما أوحِىَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا هُوَ وَأَعرِض عَنِ المُشرِكينَ
Had God willed, they would not have followed idols. We did not appoint you as their guardian, nor are you their advocate.
وَلَو شاءَ اللَّهُ ما أَشرَكوا وَما جَعَلنٰكَ عَلَيهِم حَفيظًا وَما أَنتَ عَلَيهِم بِوَكيلٍ

Look below, GOD completes His argument about His authority and words alone are sufficient and complete:

We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
وَكَذٰلِكَ جَعَلنا لِكُلِّ نَبِىٍّ عَدُوًّا شَيٰطينَ الإِنسِ وَالجِنِّ يوحى بَعضُهُم إِلىٰ بَعضٍ زُخرُفَ القَولِ غُرورًا وَلَو شاءَ رَبُّكَ ما فَعَلوهُ فَذَرهُم وَما يَفتَرونَ
This is to let the minds of those who do not really believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.*
وَلِتَصغىٰ إِلَيهِ أَفـِٔدَةُ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِالـٔاخِرَةِ وَلِيَرضَوهُ وَلِيَقتَرِفوا ما هُم مُقتَرِفونَ

Qoran is enough and complete:

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
أَفَغَيرَ اللَّهِ أَبتَغى حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ إِلَيكُمُ الكِتٰبَ مُفَصَّلًا وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعلَمونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ فَلا تَكونَنَّ مِنَ المُمتَرينَ
The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
وَتَمَّت كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدقًا وَعَدلًا لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
وَإِن تُطِع أَكثَرَ مَن فِى الأَرضِ يُضِلّوكَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِن هُم إِلّا يَخرُصونَ
Your Lord is fully aware of those who stray off His path, and He is fully aware of those who are guided.
إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعلَمُ مَن يَضِلُّ عَن سَبيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعلَمُ بِالمُهتَدينَ
 Can one really argue against GOD s message as the only source from the one and only authority. GOD Alone.
But of course GOD gave each one of us the freedom of choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace

[jkhan]

Peace Kaddie
You say this, quote:
"Quran tells us what to do and Hadeeth tells us how to do (what) was told in Quran
-we cannot have one without the other
-Quran and hadith are both important to the life of the Ummah
-to our lives as Muslims
-we can't allow any to stress importance of one over the other
-or shaytaan will try his wiles with us to cause division,
-though Allah 'taala put no division"

How about Qoran is the message from Allah It does not require another message from another source to be complete. i.e no partners to complete GOD s message.
Simply Qoran is both what and how to do.
Putting any partner/authority with GOD s message is taking on another god beside Allah Alone. i.e idol worship.

Enlightenments have come to you from your Lord. As for those who can see, they do so for their own good, and those who turn blind, do so to their own detriment. I am not your guardian.
قَد جاءَكُم بَصائِرُ مِن رَبِّكُم فَمَن أَبصَرَ فَلِنَفسِهِ وَمَن عَمِىَ فَعَلَيها وَما أَنا۠ عَلَيكُم بِحَفيظٍ
We thus explain the revelations, to prove that you have received/studied knowledge -from GOD s message-, and to clarify them for people who know.
وَكَذٰلِكَ نُصَرِّفُ الـٔايٰتِ وَلِيَقولوا دَرَستَ وَلِنُبَيِّنَهُ لِقَومٍ يَعلَمونَ
Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord,(only GOD s message/-Qoran-) there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers.
اتَّبِع ما أوحِىَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا هُوَ وَأَعرِض عَنِ المُشرِكينَ
Had God willed, they would not have followed idols. We did not appoint you as their guardian, nor are you their advocate.
وَلَو شاءَ اللَّهُ ما أَشرَكوا وَما جَعَلنٰكَ عَلَيهِم حَفيظًا وَما أَنتَ عَلَيهِم بِوَكيلٍ

Look below, GOD completes His argument about His authority and words alone are sufficient and complete:

We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
وَكَذٰلِكَ جَعَلنا لِكُلِّ نَبِىٍّ عَدُوًّا شَيٰطينَ الإِنسِ وَالجِنِّ يوحى بَعضُهُم إِلىٰ بَعضٍ زُخرُفَ القَولِ غُرورًا وَلَو شاءَ رَبُّكَ ما فَعَلوهُ فَذَرهُم وَما يَفتَرونَ
This is to let the minds of those who do not really believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.*
وَلِتَصغىٰ إِلَيهِ أَفـِٔدَةُ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِالـٔاخِرَةِ وَلِيَرضَوهُ وَلِيَقتَرِفوا ما هُم مُقتَرِفونَ

Qoran is enough and complete:

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
أَفَغَيرَ اللَّهِ أَبتَغى حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ إِلَيكُمُ الكِتٰبَ مُفَصَّلًا وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعلَمونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ فَلا تَكونَنَّ مِنَ المُمتَرينَ
The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
وَتَمَّت كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدقًا وَعَدلًا لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
وَإِن تُطِع أَكثَرَ مَن فِى الأَرضِ يُضِلّوكَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِن هُم إِلّا يَخرُصونَ
Your Lord is fully aware of those who stray off His path, and He is fully aware of those who are guided.
إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعلَمُ مَن يَضِلُّ عَن سَبيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعلَمُ بِالمُهتَدينَ
 Can one really argue against GOD s message as the only source from the one and only authority. GOD Alone.
But of course GOD gave each one of us the freedom of choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Absolutely GL..
As I told you before 'ignorance has no medicine '
Quran = What to do...
Hadith = How to do ie  demonstration (practical)
That's how almost all conventional Muslims have confined it in order that Hadith to be maintained ...
You know why GL why  they have bifurcated in this manner.. Number one claim is they don't understand Quran on its own (Allah blinded them) .. Number two Quran is not enough and not complete to practice anything in life... List goes on.. But what is the reason to say so?.. Yes.. Fundamental reason is RITUALS... every human invented RELIGION is inevitably comprised with various rituals... And strangely Quran doesn't furnish them any RITUALS in black and white though they have tried their level best to manipulate words and change meanings out of context etc... Since there is no Rituals in Quran they invented shrewdly Rituals as if it is there in Quran but unfortunately they are not able to invent from Quran 'HOW TO DO' part..  Thus they claim Hadith explains HOW TO DO them all in detail... That's why hadiths are so attractive like classical movies... Deception needs baits.. Right...
Again I reiterate SATAN will never get tired.. He will definitely live up to his challenge to Allah to the day of Deen.. I call it a challenge cuz it was indeed a challenge cuz SATAN will prevail and whatever SATAN said will become true.

Why to read a book called 'WHAT TO DO' while 'HOW TO DO' book has everything in it.. Would any book explain how to do without explaining how to do what?  So.. Literally for them Hadith books are more than enough.. Anyway what do they follow from Quran?  Do they follow anything from Quran?  Nope.. Nothing.. Cuz How to do book has replaced and exagerated and fabricated completely the book of God..

Don't be mad at me for bringing this example.. Cuz I know those who follow Quran alone also doing this.. But still let me bring.. No harm.. Cuz real believers don't get angry but they reflect..
Sujud.. SJD is acknowledgement.. Fine don't agree.. Your life.. But you know what 'HOW TO DO' book states.. You know but still I would like to enlighten.. In your sujud position your toes should be bent level to floor.. You should not lift your toes from floor.. Knees should be touching floor.. Both palms should be touching perfectly.. Nose should touch well.. Top of forehead should touch without hair touching I mean forehead should be direct without any obstacles in between.. And both elbows should be well spread and some say close to chest etc and both toes should be close thus both legs should be close not wide spread. Hands first not knees, Most importantly exact direction of black cube in Macca on top of that with wudu/ablution... Etc etc.. This is what HOW TO DO book states.. Many variations too... If not done in this manner their sujud is not accepted by Allah...
Well WHAT  TO DO book is silent on this..  While Quran States 2:185
".... ... was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and manifest proofs FOR guidance and criterion .... ...."

Would Allah miss something ?  Yes Allah has missed ..well I don't say but that's what these people who say Quran is not enough Says.. Allahs book is not enough..
"Guidance of Allah is THE guidance"  Allah'says... but they forgot it.. Neglected it.. Happy with fabrications..

Ignorants are always ignorants.. True believers will always find their ultimate goal... They will keep refreshing their faith with gradual guidance... They update their guidance.. Cuz guidance won't fall at once.. That's why we keep asking guide us our Lord..
Thank you.. Who cares about ignorants while Allah has left them ignorants... So believers.. Keep heralding let those who seek reflect... It's your duty to herald...

[amin]

Finally these all comes to believes and communities formulates rules for its survival and named it religion, some things in nature are hard to control or considered important role for our well being as a community and they called them gods angels or signs of God.

Praised One or Mohammed is our construct, in my understanding, we have formulated them for following and we all do it knowingly and unknowingly, in life its easy and safe to follow instead of inventing our own way,to me its not related to one person, thats why we have prophets/examples everywhere and all are Mohammed and we as a society constructed this and follow  the one. We have 'great examples' to emulate and lead us in the right way... Prophets are repeatedly born to show us the Kitab(Quran) the message of guidance and thats how the system works.

not limited and restricted to one person or one book, if we limit and we may not see the right one and we mistake,Quran does not recommend this or wants us to do this but the Hadiths restrict and limit, it may be good in specific conditions but it could mislead to idolizing when not seeing in the right perspective.

[jkhan]

Tbh I didn't get Most of what you described.. I mean I have no idea you follow hadith or not.. Whatever it is.. I am here to herald message of Allah in my understanding cuz Allah's message is already in His book and no one needs to herald it.. Anyone wishes can reach to Quran but you won't get what others understands of Allah's message and is not found anywhere unless they reveal what they comprehended..

Let me just point out phrase Uswat Hasana (Good remedy / Good example)...  There is nothing to emulate... No one needs to emulate anyone.. Note well.. Three times this particular phrase occurs in Quran.. And immediately God states what those Uswat Hasana they did so that you/we can reflect upon them.. What they did indeed was God's path... There is nothing to emulate from Ibrahim or his people or Mohamed or his people.  Needless to emulate anyone if you know path of Allah.. God has immediately with the same verse itself elaborated what Uswat Hasana they performed  .. Let's see..
Compare verses
60:6
"There has certainly been for you (plural) IN THEM a good remedy /.good example (Uswat hasana) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day......"

33:21
"There has certainly been for you (plural) in  MESSENGER of Allah a good remedy / good example (Uswat hasana) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day ....."

Do you see any difference in the above two verses..?  Nothing ..  I have typed in capital letters what it matters in the verse..
You know very well who is Messenger of Allah.. But who are IN THEM in  verse 60:6 .. Yes.. Normal people plus Prophet Ibrahim ..read 60:4-5 for better clarity .. They were not liars.. They had ideal exemplary behaviour at all times.. Same messenger of Quran.. He was not a liar and he was an ideal humam being, truthful person, brave and full of good conducts and honest... That's how people behave who follow truly the path of Allah.. Isn't it Uswat hasana of a person.. ? Why to emulate a person while Allah has clarified path of Allah.. If you follow path of Allah then you have Uswat Hasana in you..
If your father says " learn from your elder brother and how good behaviour he has cultivated' does that mean you want to emulate your elder brother?  No. Just do good and be good and that's missing that's why father points out elder brother's character.. Just an analogy..

Note below God says follow path of believers.. Not emulating.. Cuz true believers characters are save path Allah..

4:115
"whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the path of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination."

[centi50]

Salam to all,

If you find a grown up person wiggling his tongue inside a small boy mouth what what you think what will you do? I find this hadith so inappropriate and disgusting to say the least



It is related that Abu Hurayra said, "I never sae al-Hasan without my eyes overflowing with tears. That is because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and he found me in the mosque. He took my hand and I went along with him. He did not speak to me until we reached the market of Banu Qaynuqa'. He walked around it and looked. Then he left and I left with him until we reached the mosque. He sat down and wrapped himself in his garment. Then he said, 'Where is the little one? Call the little one to me.' Hasan came running and jumped into his lap. Then he put his hand in his beard. Then the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, opened his mouth and put his tongue in his mouth. Then he said, O Allah, I love him, so love him and the one who loves him!'"
حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ قَالَ‏:‏ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ أَبِي فُدَيْكٍ قَالَ‏:‏ حَدَّثَنِي هِشَامُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ، عَنْ نُعَيْمِ بْنِ الْمُجْمِرِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ‏:‏ مَا رَأَيْتُ حَسَنًا قَطُّ إِلاَّ فَاضَتْ عَيْنَايَ دُمُوعًا، وَذَلِكَ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم خَرَجَ يَوْمًا، فَوَجَدَنِي فِي الْمَسْجِدِ، فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِي، فَانْطَلَقْتُ مَعَهُ، فَمَا كَلَّمَنِي حَتَّى جِئْنَا سُوقَ بَنِي قَيْنُقَاعٍ، فَطَافَ فِيهِ وَنَظَرَ، ثُمَّ انْصَرَفَ وَأَنَا مَعَهُ، حَتَّى جِئْنَا الْمَسْجِدَ، فَجَلَسَ فَاحْتَبَى ثُمَّ قَالَ‏:‏ أَيْنَ لَكَاعٌ‏؟‏ ادْعُ لِي لَكَاعًا، فَجَاءَ حَسَنٌ يَشْتَدُّ فَوَقَعَ فِي حِجْرِهِ، ثُمَّ أَدْخَلَ يَدَهُ فِي لِحْيَتِهِ، ثُمَّ جَعَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَفْتَحُ فَاهُ فَيُدْخِلُ فَاهُ فِي فِيهِ، ثُمَّ قَالَ‏:‏ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أُحِبُّهُ، فَأَحْبِبْهُ، وَأَحِبَّ مَنْ يُحِبُّهُ‏.‏
Grade:    Hasan (Al-Albani)     حـسـن   (الألباني)   حكم   :
Reference    : Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 1183
In-book reference    : Book 48, Hadith 9
English translation    : Book 48, Hadith 1183

[Bajram Hoxhaj]

Salam to all,

If you find a grown up person wiggling his tongue inside a small boy mouth what what you think what will you do? I find this hadith so inappropriate and disgusting to say the least



It is related that Abu Hurayra said, "I never sae al-Hasan without my eyes overflowing with tears. That is because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and he found me in the mosque. He took my hand and I went along with him. He did not speak to me until we reached the market of Banu Qaynuqa'. He walked around it and looked. Then he left and I left with him until we reached the mosque. He sat down and wrapped himself in his garment. Then he said, 'Where is the little one? Call the little one to me.' Hasan came running and jumped into his lap. Then he put his hand in his beard. Then the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, opened his mouth and put his tongue in his mouth. Then he said, O Allah, I love him, so love him and the one who loves him!'"
حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ قَالَ‏:‏ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ أَبِي فُدَيْكٍ قَالَ‏:‏ حَدَّثَنِي هِشَامُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ، عَنْ نُعَيْمِ بْنِ الْمُجْمِرِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ‏:‏ مَا رَأَيْتُ حَسَنًا قَطُّ إِلاَّ فَاضَتْ عَيْنَايَ دُمُوعًا، وَذَلِكَ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم خَرَجَ يَوْمًا، فَوَجَدَنِي فِي الْمَسْجِدِ، فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِي، فَانْطَلَقْتُ مَعَهُ، فَمَا كَلَّمَنِي حَتَّى جِئْنَا سُوقَ بَنِي قَيْنُقَاعٍ، فَطَافَ فِيهِ وَنَظَرَ، ثُمَّ انْصَرَفَ وَأَنَا مَعَهُ، حَتَّى جِئْنَا الْمَسْجِدَ، فَجَلَسَ فَاحْتَبَى ثُمَّ قَالَ‏:‏ أَيْنَ لَكَاعٌ‏؟‏ ادْعُ لِي لَكَاعًا، فَجَاءَ حَسَنٌ يَشْتَدُّ فَوَقَعَ فِي حِجْرِهِ، ثُمَّ أَدْخَلَ يَدَهُ فِي لِحْيَتِهِ، ثُمَّ جَعَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَفْتَحُ فَاهُ فَيُدْخِلُ فَاهُ فِي فِيهِ، ثُمَّ قَالَ‏:‏ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أُحِبُّهُ، فَأَحْبِبْهُ، وَأَحِبَّ مَنْ يُحِبُّهُ‏.‏
Grade:    Hasan (Al-Albani)      حـسـن  (الألباني)    حكم  :
Reference    : Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 1183
In-book reference    : Book 48, Hadith 9
English translation    : Book 48, Hadith 1183

Salaam,
There is no word 'tongue' in that hadith.
'tongue' is 'لسان' pronounced as 'lisaan'.

ثُمَّ (thumma) - then
أَدْخَلَ (adkhala) - he puts
يَدَهُ (yadahu) - hand his
فِي (fi) - in
لِحْيَتِهِ (lihyatihi) - beard his

ثُمَّ (thumma) - then
جَعَلَ (ja'ala) - he made
النَّبِيُّ (an-nabiyyu) - the Prophet
صلى الله عليه وسلم (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam)
يَفْتَحُ (yaf'tahu) - he opens
فَاهُ (fahu) - mouth his
فَيُدْخِلُ (fayudkhilu) - so puts
فَاهُ (fahu) - mouth his
فِي (fi) - in
فِيهِ (fihi) - into it

The Arabic word "فيهِ" (fiihi) can mean "into it" or "in it". In this context, the meaning is "into it", as the speaker is putting his mouth into his own mouth. This phrase is often used in a metaphorical sense to describe someone who is very engrossed in something or who is talking to themselves.

ثُمَّ (thumma) - then
قَالَ (qala) - he said
اللَّهُمَّ (Allahumma) - O Allah
إِنِّي (inni) - indeed I
أُحِبُّهُ (uhibbuhu) - I love him
فَأَحْبِبْهُ (fa'ahbibhu) - so love him
وَأَحِبَّ (wa'ahibba) - and love
مَنْ (man) - whom
يُحِبُّهُ (yuhibbuhu) - loves him

other examples:

يَفْتَحُ فَاهُ فَيُدْخِلُ فَاهُ فِي فِيهِ وَيَقُولُ أَشْيَاءَ غَرِيبَةً. (Yaftahu faahu fayudkhilu faahu fii fiihi wa yaquulu ashyaa'a gharibah.) - He opens his mouth and puts his mouth into his mouth and says strange things.

الْعَالِمُ يَفْتَحُ فَاهُ فَيُدْخِلُ فَاهُ فِي فِيهِ وَيَقْرَأُ كِتَابًا. (Al-'aalimu yaftahu faahu fayudkhilu faahu fii fiihi wa yaqra'u kitaaban.) - The scholar opens his mouth and puts his mouth into his mouth and reads a book.