Sufis

[the tizz]

Another thing, i just read your most previous post again. You dislike all Quranist's and you dont consider them to be muslim. If you dont consider those who follow the Quran to be muslim then i dont understand who you consider to be muslim. The Quran is the divine revelation and is the backbone of Islam, if not Quranist's i'd like you to tell me what we should follow and you're reasoning for making that statement. ( "I dislike all quranist's and dont consider them muslim")

[Bosnian Thinker]

I'm sorry, you do sound a bit offended and if i sound like a jerk i appologize. But the truth is that you're going a bit back and forth on your opinions. I am a sunni muslim but i can assure you the Shia culture does not worship the devil either. I honestly have no idea how you came to that assumption at all, please explain that to me because i'm dumbfounded. 

I never said that Shi'ites or Sunnis worship the devil.  If you think I'm wrong, please show me the post/s where I said such things.

Second, why did you say you "unfourtanetly" read many hadeeth. The Kalima Shahada which you must proclaim to become a muslim is, " There is no God but Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the messenger of Allah". Notice, how the importance of the prophet is stressed. The Hadeeth is beautiful because while the Quran is the divine revelation the sunnah is it's practical exemplification. It deals with the most simple things like the five pillars of Islam all the way to ways you should deal with family life, major sins and crimes,prohibited and undesireable things, social obligations, faith and finance and also death and Dua. It's like a guideline for a proper way to live your life, by rejecting the Hadeeth your rejecting the Prophet which means you are rejecting Kalama Shahada which means you're basically not Muslim at all because that's what you need to say before you convert into Islam.

Also, i did a bit of research on the authenticity of the Hadeeth. The Muhaddithun were a group of people who systematically evaluated the authenticity of every single hadeeth. There methodology has no parallel in the entire history of mankind. First, they would look at the text of the Hadeeth and if it contained something contradictory of the Quran or to some other authentic Hadeeth or to basic human reason/ morals/ ethics, it was rejected immediately. Secondly, a VERY close  examination was made of the narrator of the hadith being examined. This was done to establish the moral and integrity of each narrator, if one of the narrators fell short of a basic criteria EVERY hadeeth he narated was rejected, not just the onle they were looking at, EVERY hadeeth he narrated.  Imam Bukhari gave only 7000 hadeeth the heads up, out of half a million. Is that system good enough for you?

Before I say anything else, I want to ask you what if there were no hadeeths?  What if nobody kept track of what Muhammad did and said?  Do you believe that there would be no Muslims in the world today because no one would know the shahadah?

[Bosnian Thinker]

Another thing, i just read your most previous post again. You dislike all Quranist's and you dont consider them to be muslim. If you dont consider those who follow the Quran to be muslim then i dont understand who you consider to be muslim. The Quran is the divine revelation and is the backbone of Islam, if not Quranist's i'd like you to tell me what we should follow and you're reasoning for making that statement. ( "I dislike all quranist's and dont consider them muslim")

I am a Quranist.  However, I don't believe that all Quranists are Muslims.  For example, 19ers are Quranists, but I don't consider them to be Muslims.  Concerning my post, you misunderstood what I wrote.  What I said was that I used to be a Sunni, and at that time when I was a Sunni, I disliked all Quranists and I didn't consider any of them to be Muslims.

[Real Truth]

GOD never proclaimed for you to say "I am a witness there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger", show me in the quran where it says to say exactly that

[Jafar]

I have met and discuss with many (claimed to be) "follower of sufi" in my life.
Many if not most of them are really wonderful people, personally i liked them more than the sunnis or the shiites..

In my view; "the sufi" are really a bridge between western religion / cultures (including Islam) and eastern religon / cultures (Budhism, Taoism etc..)

The main 'differences' between the west and the east is on how they view "God".
In the west; God is being personalized, thus God speak (through prophets) and the sayings (oral signs) was written down in books.
In the east; God is not personalized, thus there are no 'prophets' as God didn't "verbally say" anything or wrote books. Yet there are many "wise teachers" which teaches Wisdom and a way for you to gain that wisdom / peace of mind yourselves a.k.a "meditation".

In the east; you can "reach God" yourself through deep meditation, in the west through reading and contemplating on His books..
In the west they have silly people acting as a 'broker' to God (they call it priests) as they're the one with privileged access and knowledge of God's books, in the east "the priest / monks" is a teacher of "the way" (mediation) to reach God by yourself.

Sufis seems to embrace both concepts, thus "God can be found within you and also outside of you, by yourself".
In my view; they're not as 'dogmatic' as their sunnis/shiites/christians/judaism counterparts who likes to dictate people on what to believe.

Bear in mind that there are no wars ever fought in the name of budhism or taoism or other eastern religion/beliefs.
Infact in the eastern cultures there are no recorded history of 'religious war'.

Salam / Peace

[Phil]

<snip>
Sufis seems to embrace both concepts, thus "God can be found within you and also outside of you, by yourself".
In my view; they're not as 'dogmatic' as their sunnis/shiites/christians/judaism counterparts who likes to dictate people on what to believe.

Bear in mind that there are no wars ever fought in the name of budhism or taoism or other eastern religion/beliefs.
Infact in the eastern cultures there are no recorded history of 'religious war'.

Salam / Peace

Great write-up to summarize east/west approach on "religion" and how sufism fits somewhere in the middle.  Couldn't be better.

But being in power as with any other institution, the eastern model could not escape their own debacles.  War has been fought over territories under the pretext of religion and this includes for example Buddhism or rather the majority Buddhist controlled government.


http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

A glance at history, however, reveals that not all the many and widely varying forms of Buddhism have been free of doctrinal fanaticism, nor free of the violent and exploitative pursuits so characteristic of other religions. In Sri Lanka there is a legendary and almost sacred recorded history about the triumphant battles waged by Buddhist kings of yore. During the twentieth century, Buddhists clashed violently with each other and with non-Buddhists in Thailand, Burma, Korea, Japan, India, and elsewhere. In Sri Lanka, armed battles between Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu Tamils have taken many lives on both sides. In 1998 the U.S. State Department listed thirty of the world?s most violent and dangerous extremist groups. Over half of them were religious, specifically Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist. 1

In South Korea, in 1998, thousands of monks of the Chogye Buddhist order fought each other with fists, rocks, fire-bombs, and clubs, in pitched battles that went on for weeks. They were vying for control of the order, the largest in South Korea, with its annual budget of $9.2 million, its millions of dollars worth of property, and the privilege of appointing 1,700 monks to various offices. The brawls damaged the main Buddhist sanctuaries and left dozens of monks injured, some seriously. The Korean public appeared to disdain both factions, feeling that no matter what side took control, ?it would use worshippers? donations for luxurious houses and expensive cars.? 2

As with any religion, squabbles between or within Buddhist sects are often fueled by the material corruption and personal deficiencies of the leadership. For example, in Nagano, Japan, at Zenkoji, the prestigious complex of temples that has hosted Buddhist sects for more than 1,400 years, ?a nasty battle? arose between Komatsu the chief priest and the Tacchu, a group of temples nominally under the chief priest's sway. The Tacchu monks accused Komatsu of selling writings and drawings under the temple's name for his own gain. They also were appalled by the frequency with which he was seen in the company of women. Komatsu in turn sought to isolate and punish monks who were critical of his leadership. The conflict lasted some five years and made it into the courts. 3

Salam/Shalom/Peace

[Hope]

But then again what is a muslim?

Peace

My understanding is who believe in god verses and follow them is the moslem

30:53 Nor can you enlighten the blind from their straying; but you can only make those who believe in Our revelations listen, for they have submitted.
وما أنت بهد العمي عن ضللتهم إن تسمع إلا من يؤمن بءايتنا فهم مسلمون

[aynur]

I'm sorry, you do sound a bit offended and if i sound like a jerk i appologize. But the truth is that you're going a bit back and forth on your opinions. I am a sunni muslim but i can assure you the Shia culture does not worship the devil either. I honestly have no idea how you came to that assumption at all, please explain that to me because i'm dumbfounded. Second, why did you say you "unfourtanetly" read many hadeeth. The Kalima Shahada which you must proclaim to become a muslim is, " There is no God but Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the messenger of Allah". Notice, how the importance of the prophet is stressed. The Hadeeth is beautiful because while the Quran is the divine revelation the sunnah is it's practical exemplification. It deals with the most simple things like the five pillars of Islam all the way to ways you should deal with family life, major sins and crimes,prohibited and undesireable things, social obligations, faith and finance and also death and Dua. It's like a guideline for a proper way to live your life, by rejecting the Hadeeth your rejecting the Prophet which means you are rejecting Kalama Shahada which means you're basically not Muslim at all because that's what you need to say before you convert into Islam.

Also, i did a bit of research on the authenticity of the Hadeeth. The Muhaddithun were a group of people who systematically evaluated the authenticity of every single hadeeth. There methodology has no parallel in the entire history of mankind. First, they would look at the text of the Hadeeth and if it contained something contradictory of the Quran or to some other authentic Hadeeth or to basic human reason/ morals/ ethics, it was rejected immediately. Secondly, a VERY close  examination was made of the narrator of the hadith being examined. This was done to establish the moral and integrity of each narrator, if one of the narrators fell short of a basic criteria EVERY hadeeth he narated was rejected, not just the onle they were looking at, EVERY hadeeth he narrated.  Imam Bukhari gave only 7000 hadeeth the heads up, out of half a million. Is that system good enough for you?

that's how I feel right now. 

How about this "authentic" hadith:

?The Prophet (PBUH) urged the women to be generous with their gifts, for when he had glimpsed into the flames of Hell, he had noted the vast majority of people being tormented there were women. The women were outraged, and one of them instantly stood up and demanded to know why that was so. ?Because,? he replied, ?you women grumble so much, and show ingratitude to your husbands! Even if the poor fellows spent all their lives doing things for you, you have only to be upset at the least of thing and you will say, ?I have never received any good from you!?, At that the women began vigorously to pull off their rings, and throw them into Bilal?s Cloak. (Bukhari 1.28, Abu Dawud 439).
vs.
Qur'an verse 3:35 : ?Surely the men who submit and women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and truthful women, and the patient men and patient women, and the humble men and humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and fasting men and fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah and women who remember ? Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and mighty reward.?

Another "authentic" hadith:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Whoever believes in Allah and
the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you
to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the
most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to
straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain
crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 7.114 Narrated by Abu Huraira (r.a.)

The "crooked rib" part sounds like it's from Christianity.

[M_Mehdi]

Peace.

I do not believe that Shi'ites or Sunnis are Muslims, but I don't know about Sufis.  Currently, I guess I would say that I don't believe they are, but I don't know much about Sufis and their beliefs and practices.  Can anyone enlighten me?

would be my pleasure..

I don't think you're a "Muslim".

What the hell is Sufi?

[Bigmo]

Takfirsm is creeping. Many people are still Salafi oriented in their thinking. The problem of course is if you ask them

What is a "Muslim" according to the Koran? They can't answer. So how can you say someone is not a Muslim when you don't even know what defines a Muslim.

A Muslim is a verb. It is used in the Koran on many occasions and not only on humans. I personally define a believer as anyone who believes in God and the day of Judgement.

As the movement grows many takfiris are creeping in. The good thing about the Koran is it does not give them their evidence. They can always be countered by the Koran.

I am surprised when someone says that those who believe in the 19 concept are not Muslims. What is a Muslim? And what does believing in the 19 has to do with a person is a Muslim or not. I was never comfortable with that word, Muslim or even Islam. Because its very vague. So I tend to define it according to the criteria of the Koran which is very broad. 

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" ( 5:69).

124. If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them. Holy Qur'an (4:124)

O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware. Holy Qur'an (49:13)

I hate takfirism and so does the Koran. May God protect us from the dangers of takfirism and sectarianism.