I was recently discussing the topic of undisputed (pretty much) facts about Quran that atheists/agnostics may find interesting, and it was suggested others might find this info helpful, so here is some of them.
If you have some to add, feel free.
The Quran is considered a high quality piece of Classical Arabic prose/literature, even by non-Muslim scholars in this field.
Historians agree that Arabia prior to Quran was fairly non-advanced scientifically/technologically, tribal law dominated. Yet, after Quran and early islam, its followers created a successful empire, and became the most scientifically/technologically advanced nation on earth.... for a time.
No-one (to my knowledge) has ever claimed to take credit for writing Quran, other than Muhammad, and he attributed it to God's Words, not his own.
The Quran repeatedly asks us to think, reflect, look at nature/history/biology/etc to verify what it says, and in fact challenges the reader to bring a chapter like it, find contradiction in it etc.
The Quran claimed "the reminder" would be preserved, and it seems this is the case, and at most a few letters/words can said to have variance. Please note, to my knowledge, no minor variances has ever been subjected to a systematic check to determine if they can be reduced/eliminated or not.
Two aspects that could be added:
No scientific information (if its classed as such) has ever been shown to be clearly wrong, and often ahead of its time (potentially at least). Note, there are many many claims of errors but I have examined many, and the best they can come up with is to say if its interpreted in the Traditional understanding or tafsir X or if we specifically take interpretation Y it's wrong, but that's not the only interpretation.
There seems to be a mathematical component to Quran, regarding frequency of words:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600321.0
#####
The above information would lead most truthseekers, in my view, to at the very least consider The Quran worthy of reading/studying.
And there is always this article (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm).
Quote from: Wakas on April 05, 2016, 04:29:25 PM
I was recently discussing the topic of undisputed (pretty much) facts about Quran that atheists/agnostics may find interesting, and it was suggested others might find this info helpful, so here is some of them.
If you have some to add, feel free.
This is a great idea. I think it would be helpful and clearer to the reader if this list was numbered though. ;)
Quote from: Wakas on April 05, 2016, 04:29:25 PMHistorians agree that Arabia prior to Quran was fairly non-advanced scientifically/technologically, tribal law dominated. Yet, after Quran and early islam, its followers created a successful empire, and became the most scientifically/technologically advanced nation on earth.... for a time.
I've seen some atheists/non Muslims (albeit on YouTube and other common social media platforms) disagree with this claim.
Quote from: Wakas on April 05, 2016, 04:29:25 PMThe Quran claimed "the reminder" would be preserved, and it seems this is the case, and at most a few letters/words can said to have variance. Please note, to my knowledge, no minor variances has ever been subjected to a systematic check to determine if they can be reduced/eliminated or not.
Didn't runninglikezebras and others claim in the thread "The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed" that the accepted history of the Qur'an's preservation is false? Even if the account told in that thread is untrue, it still stands that now some people may believe that the Qur'an has not been preserved, and thus this cannot be an undisputed fact.
Peace. :peace:
Quote from: Comrox on April 05, 2016, 05:40:08 PM
I've seen some atheists/non Muslims (albeit on YouTube and other common social media platforms) disagree with this claim.
Which nations did they claim were more advanced?
Quote
Didn't runninglikezebras and others claim in the thread "The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed" that the accepted history of the Qur'an's preservation is false? Even if the account told in that thread is untrue, it still stands that now some people may believe that the Qur'an has not been preserved, and thus this cannot be an undisputed fact.
By "undisputed (pretty much) facts" I did not mean every single person in the entire world agrees, only the vast majority do based on the
evidence. Evidence being the key word.
Quote from: Wakas on April 05, 2016, 05:52:05 PM
Which nations did they claim were more advanced?
I don't think they claim that another nation was more advanced, rather that the achievements of the Islamic Golden Age did not come from Muslims, and these advancements either came from non-Muslims during that time or they were ideas taken from ancient civilizations (such as the Greeks).
There is a YouTube video by Bill Warner who claims specifically that because Muslims took over so many places, they took over their land and their "intellectuals" as he puts it. (I will admit that he does come across as against Muslims, in my view.)
Also here is a YouTube commenter talking about algebra: "Your claim that algebra was ?invented? is interesting as math can NOT be invented but rather is discovered. Having said that, algebra was NOT discovered by Muslims as it has a history stretching back to Babylonian times. Algebra as a study existed in Ancient Greece (look up Diophantus who is called ?the father of algebra?) and roman era Greeks practiced higher levels of algebra than did al-Khwarizmi (look up Arithmetica). Also, Greco- Roman science served as the basis for most of the scientific achievements of the so called ?Islamic Golden Age? as did Indian science. Even during the expansion of the caliphates the Byzantine Greeks were able to maintain a technological edge over their Islamic contemporaries. Byzantine ingenuities such as Greek fire (a technology which the Arabs could never replicate) enabled the weakened empire to survive for centuries against relentless Arab Muslim onslaught."
Quote from: Wakas on April 05, 2016, 05:52:05 PMBy "undisputed (pretty much) facts" I did not mean every single person in the entire world agrees, only the vast majority do based on the evidence. Evidence being the key word.
I understand now. Thanks. :)
QuoteI don't think they claim that another nation was more advanced, rather that the achievements of the Islamic Golden Age did not come from Muslims, and these advancements either came from non-Muslims during that time or they were ideas taken from ancient civilizations (such as the Greeks).
I saw those videos. There is something they avoid talking about.
Here is how research works:
Academically, before we can research anything we have to go back the past research papers/books written about it. Some of them form the basics which must be utilized for the new research. It also saves one from wasting time on what is already there and plagiarism. This is how discovery and invention work. Even Darwin built on his theory of evolution by looking into the work of evolutionists from Muslims of the Golden age. However, evolution was not discovered by them. They just provided more theories.
The interest to learn about the world and willingness to progress seem to have a big connection with the Quran. When I started reading about House of Wisdom I got the feeling that it was the 8th century free-minds forum :P The only difference is that the former had huge amount of fund and face to face discussions. Even Caliph Al Mamun could not resist debating on philosophical issues at that place.
But anyways, here is one of my most favorite scientists of the Golden age era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen It seems he was more of a Quran only Muslim who had issue with both sunnis and muʿtazilas.
QuoteDidn't runninglikezebras and others claim in the thread "The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed" that the accepted history of the Qur'an's preservation is false? Even if the account told in that thread is untrue, it still stands that now some people may believe that the Qur'an has not been preserved, and thus this cannot be an undisputed fact.
lol, their claim had a big problem. They said that Quran was derived from notebook made on the books of Nazarene guys. This got me the question: Why then no other book of theirs was found to carry binary Symmetric structure? Then they went onto using sana manuscript as proof. Unfortunately, Birmingham Quran manuscript from prophet's time debunked whatever they claimed. I find the idea of running after sana manuscript pretty useless considering the fact that when copying mistakes happen and plus even today plenty of groups try to change Quran only to be rejected by the masses later. Then we have black magicians who are known to write Surahs backward for their hocus pocus tricks.
Anyways, back to the main topic:I think the biggest factor about the Quran is its power. I am saying this from reflection. When I first joined here I was overly into the idea that Allah's law does not change. I took it as a sign that miracles given in the Quran were not miracles and that they could be explained scientifically because they were attached to the laws of the universe. Boy, I was wrong! Miracles do exist and I came to know about it only after I began using the verses in my everyday life. It gets taken away only when I suddenly fall prey to satanic tradition of arrogance. I now get that there is power in the humbleness found specifically in the Quran.
And of course, then we have this:
Humans are all equalAnd those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and
whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend. 42:38
You can't force laws on others without their consent
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives.
Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort or refuse, then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.4:135
And O my people,
give full measure and weight in justice and do not deprive the people of their due and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption.11:85
Freedom of thought and Individualism And
you have come to Us individually, just as We had created you the first time; and you have left behind you all that We have provided for you; and We do not see your intercessors with you that you used to claim were with you in partnership; all is severed between you, and what you have claimed has abandoned you."6:94
And
if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.6:116
Also check
Say, "
Each works according to his manner, but your Lord is most knowing of who is best guided in way."17:84
Freedom of ReligionAnd
had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, would you compel the people in order that they become believers?10:99
And say, "
The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.18:29
There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.2:256
Surah 109
Say: Oh you who turn away
I do not worship what you worship,
nor do you worship what I worship.
And I will not worship what you worship,
Nor will you worship what I worship.
Your way is yours, and my way is mine.
Freedom of Speech and CriticismAnd be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.73:10
And
when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.6:68
And
when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant."28:55
QuoteThe Quran repeatedly asks us to think, reflect, look at nature/history/biology/etc to verify what it says, and in fact challenges the reader to bring a chapter like it, find contradiction in it etc.
I have gathered the verses :)
Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are
the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. 8:22
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and
He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. 10:100
And within the land are neighboring plots and gardens of grapevines and crops and palm trees, [growing] several from a root or otherwise, watered with one water; but We make some of them exceed others in [quality of] fruit.
Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason.13:4
He causes to grow for you thereby the crops, olives, palm trees, grapevines, and from all the fruits.
Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command.
Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason.And [He has subjected] whatever He multiplied for you on the earth of varying colors.
Indeed in that is a sign for a people who remember.16:11-13
But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing."
Why, even if their forefathers did not use their REASON at all, and were devoid of all guidance?2:17
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day
are signs for those of understanding.Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and
give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.3:190-191
So
let man observe from what he was created.86:5
O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made
you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.
seventh century rejection by some prominent individuals (cheif tribes man)
He is poet, he is magician, these are tales of old,
21st century rejectors (scientist, athiest, scholars of diff religions)
this book contradicts, this is work of plagarism from greek and persia, he was warlord and he capture sources of history. mathematical errros, 2o grammetical errors by the book of abdul fadi, quran claim earth is flat, muhammad never show any miracle why?
in all this time from prophet moses david jesus then muhammad i realise , the one who use his sense is the winner of the mystery. becoz when u use your sense honestly it will leads you towards your creator/source/master/initiator
all this time of history last 1400 years, claims are still there but they change its shape, interestingly look at it all , the people of that time didnt claim prophet is liar, but they were claiming these old tales are lies. seventh century people were proud of their litereture but when this master peiece come at first they confuse whether its poetry or summary, whether it literature or warning? so they started caling him poet..
when people are convincing with this truth , rejectors addressing him as a magician,
now come to the 21 century , they have establish science now they try to attack on quran grammertically, scientifically , and in their evidence they show us some interpretation by traditional of old scholars. no body is calling him poet now ,but they are thinking after verification its truth , it must be stolen from somebody else..was it not a time when they was unaware whats under the water of deep ocean,
conclusion.
if they are true in their claim, why no poet of seventh century or any century write a book like this,
if its a work of plagarism. now they have more plagarised copy inthe shape of quran, why no body can create a better plagarised copy of greek work ,,they can call their assistant if they want.
if he was really a war lord ,why he forgive the very first people who was responsible for his migration, even thogh if he already knew their agenda why didnt he killed them all to hide his agenda.
if he was a magician, why till today no magician come who will follow by billions.
even a kid know in circus . about the truth of magic.
why time by time every prediction or prophesy of quran match and happen exactly how its been told to us.apart from some future prophesies like judgement day?
pick a scientific book 200 years old and let me know how much mistakes you will find in it after reading updated version of new science book
muhammad never show miracle , because it was the planning of God what to get at what specific time. what about jesus david and moses they bring large quantity of miracles people still reject the message. they trap their own trick,, is it not a miracle quran is the only book that stand with its own words whatever it claims.
cant you see quran talks with you , have you ever seen a book that talks about you.. and you realise you are being connected with some mysterious connection.
at that time and present time quran was updated will be updated ,
peace
Peace.
I checked the following facts and I found they hold ( Check as per 17:36):
SOME SIMPLE FACTS
1. The first verse (1:1), "Basmalah" consists of 19 Arabic letters.
2. Each of the four Arabic words of "Basmalah" are repeated in the Quran in multiples of 19 in numbered verses. The first word..."Ism" (Name).....occurs...19 times The second word.."Allah" (God)....occurs...2698 times (19x142). The third word..."Al-Rahman" (Most Gracious)...57 times (19x3) The fourth word.."Raheem" (Most Merciful)..114 times (19x6)
The above can be verified by the following:
1. In the Concordance of the Quran by Abdul Baqy on page 362 the word ISM is listed with 19 occurrences. The peculiar spelling of the word ISM as BISM is repeated in the Quran three times in verses 1:1, 27:30 & 11:41. (1+1+27+30+11+41 + number of occurrences 3 =114 or 19x6)
2. The count of the word ALLAH can best be verified by Dr. Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Quran which carries the cumulative total occurrences of ALLAH on each page. Abdul Baqy gets the same count when the numbered verse 1:1 is included in his count.
3. On page 307 on Abdul Baqy's concordance we find AL REHMAN to be 57 as total occurrences.
4. The word AL RAHEEM is listed on page 307 as occurring 95 times, while RAHEEM is listed on page 309 as occurring as 20 times. The total occurrence is 114 (95 -1 + 20 = 114). AL RAHEEM in verse 9:128 is not counted (Note: verses 9:128 & 129 were falsely injected into the Quran after the death of the prophet. The subject will be discussed in another topic).
3. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ...19 x 6
4. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ..19x334.
6346 is the total of 6234 numbered verses and 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalah) Also 6 + 3 + 4 + 6 = 19
5. From the missing Basmalah in sura 9 to the extra Basmalah in sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.
6. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers.(Eg: 300 & 9 in verse 18:25). The sum of the 30 numbers is 162, 146 or 19 x 8534.
7. The sum of all verse numbers where God "Allah" is mentioned is 118, 123 or 19 x 6, 217.
QURANIC INITIALS
There are 29 suras in the Quran with prefixed initials. All the initials are linked to the common denominator - 19. "Q" (Qaaf) is initialed in suras 42 and 50. In both the suras,"Q" is repeated 57 times or 19 x 3.
"Nun" (Noon) is initialed in sura 68 and if you take the name of the letter is spelled out as - "noon wow noon" - like in the original text. The total count of "Nun" is 133 or 19 x 7.
"S" (Saad) is initialed in suras, 7, 19, 38, and the total occurrence in the three suras is 152 or 19 x 8.
"Y.S" (Ya Seen). These two letters are prefixed in Sura 36 and the total occurrence for both of them is 285 or 19 x 15.
"H.M" (Ha Mim). These letters prefix suras 40 through 46 and their total occurrence in the seven "H.M" initialed suras is 2147 or 19 x 113.
"`A.S.Q" ('Ayn Seen Qaf). These initials constitute Verse 2 of sura 42 and are repeated in the sura 209 or 19 x 11 times.
GOD bless.
Peace.
The whole book is disputable but it also defends it's self by contain the disputes that each kind of disputer will bring forth or up.
Quote from: fye on April 06, 2016, 04:09:02 PM
The whole book is disputable but it also defends it's self by contain the disputes that each kind of disputer will bring forth or up.
This applies to every single book in the world.
Not every book. Say the bible it doesn't hold the disputes against Mary.
She could have just lied that book doesn't even being up the question.
Quote from: fye on April 06, 2016, 08:54:33 PM
Not every book. Say the bible it doesn't hold the disputes against Mary.
She could have just lied that book doesn't even being up the question.
thats y sometimes bible claim the divinity of mary good show,,
Quote from: fye on April 06, 2016, 08:54:33 PM
Not every book. Say the bible it doesn't hold the disputes against Mary.
She could have just lied that book doesn't even being up the question.
Many atheists come from Christianity and they do dispute the bible. But again, whether someone will accept a Quran depends largely on whether he wants to be guided. Even during Prophet's time, people did reject Quranic chapters/verses. Hence we have:
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.18:29
But these books are not all written the same. The Quran has a different story telling method. It's true and it presents the option of belief and disbelief. But it argues for it's self and it breaks down it's agreement to an elementary level. The Quran is right it's obviously true but when you choose to believe you end up with your whole life centering around this.
Cathlic and Orthodox literature has made a great deal of Mary, but the New testamentte itself is veryhort on Mary ad does ot make a great deal of her. In fact in giving real importance to Mary the Bible amounts to nothing, she is thre like a ghost. What gavve weight to the fiure of Mary ha been the mother-divinity upheld by religionns prvious to Christianity. The Caholics and orthodox had the good sense to acknowledge that a religionn where evverything was male did to appeal to popular belief. to have a feminine part was fundametal to get to the people.
The bible is not precisely a female promoting collection of books.
Salaam
Quote from: fye on April 07, 2016, 02:38:40 AM
But these books are not all written the same. The Quran has a different story telling method. It's true and it presents the option of belief and disbelief. But it argues for it's self and it breaks down it's agreement to an elementary level. The Quran is right it's obviously true but
I agree that Quran has a different story telling method, but probably not all will be convinced by the content. Most won't approach it the way we do because they are made to believe by sectarians that all the interpretations found in it are correct. Heehee, we know how much truth lies in that claim.
Quotewhen you choose to believe you end up with your whole life centering around this.
Are you talking about those who follow only Quran or sectarians? I think most of us center our lives around the book is because we are curious and willing to learn.
I am sorry Wakas for going off topic. Fye, if you wish to discuss it just open a new thread. It is an interesting topic anyways.
Quote from: reel on April 07, 2016, 12:15:42 AM
Many atheists come from Christianity and they do dispute the bible. But again, whether someone will accept a Quran depends largely on whether he wants to be guided. Even during Prophet's time, people did reject Quranic chapters/verses. Hence we have:
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.18:29
Yep that's how the story progression of the book goes surah 2 the guide introduces himself to the reader
Reel and huruf
I understand what your saying but Quran only is a sectarian thing too.
You don't want a name it's like making friends you just do your thing and the disciples bring themselves.
Did Jesus name His group of disciples?
No man
Keep your circles but don't forget your duty to your fellow believer.
The religion is not something cultural like hats vs turbans. It's just what do you believe and did you hear the story of or ayat of.....
I'm an abrahamic monotheist I believe in one God and prophet Abraham's theory of creation. Theist for theist
Theory.
Mono one theory
Everything is just pieces.
Have you heard the story of prophet Abraham when he places birds on hill's. They all came and when they met each other they swarmed like particles of cloud flocking in spirals left and right still in flight.
Islam is abrahamic monotheism
The kabba is the house of prophet Abraham, may ALLAH bless Muhammad ( the praiseworthy one )
And may those climbing the ranks someday become the messenger.
Ralso I think it's somewhere in surah 2
Quote from: fye on April 07, 2016, 07:37:14 PM
Reel and huruf
I understand what your saying but Quran only is a sectarian thing too.
You don't want a name it's like making friends you just do your thing and the disciples bring themselves.
Did Jesus name His group of disciples?
No man
Keep your circles but don't forget your duty to your fellow believer.
The religion is not something cultural like hats vs turbans. It's just what do you believe and did you hear the story of or ayat of.....
I'm an abrahamic monotheist I believe in one God and prophet Abraham's theory of creation. Theist for theist
Theory.
Mono one theory
Everything is just pieces.
Have you heard the story of prophet Abraham when he places birds on hill's. They all came and when they met each other they swarmed like particles of cloud flocking in spirals left and right still in flight.
Islam is abrahamic monotheism
The kabba is the house of prophet Abraham, may ALLAH bless Muhammad ( the praiseworthy one )
And may those climbing the ranks someday become the messenger.
Ralso I think it's somewhere in surah 2
The true meaning of sect is inside Quran. None matches us. In order to be sectarian you have to do the following:
have doubt about the scripture (42:14). Examples: "Can you show me salaat in the Quran?"
be confused about the original religion/deen and not investigate what you believe. (23:51-54).
use violent towards other out of confusion 6:65-66
You will also find some examples of sects in Quran and one of them happens to be belief in innovation.
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I have just found out about the ring theory connected to Quran. Here is the link if someone wishes to investigate it: http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/ring-theory-the-qurans-structural-coherence/
Quote from: reel on April 12, 2016, 05:38:24 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have just found out about the ring theory connected to Quran. Here is the link if someone wishes to investigate it: http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/ring-theory-the-qurans-structural-coherence/
reel its quite interesting and excellent link thanks for sharing..
Salaam and back to sects
Do you understand how division weakens a whole?
And how can anyone choose to be anything but what ALLAH tells him to be?
The believers are simply called the believers throughout the book having a heiarchy of rank a sect would have it's own hierarchy and would be objectors to the whole but the world has changed a but but people are still genetically the same born with the same ideals and to make the same actions over and over again if. A parents rejects faith so will the child so expecting from the parables in previous generations only I only expect at least 3 people to believe with the messenger and at least one will simply be a hipocrate. I like start another post about this.
Undisputed facts about Quran:
1- Quran is written in arabic, this is an undisputed fact see 12:2, 13:37, 16:103, 26:195 etc...
This simple statement is quiet a "big" argument when I asked the same question to a Christian in which language is the Bible written, answer is not easy as it might seem!!!
What ever old Bible archaeologists may found you will never know if it is the original language or just a translation!!!!
2- Quran is written in people's language
43:3 We have made it a Qur'an in arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).
Again this is another argument for my catholic friend :)
3- Quran does not insult "messengers"
Suleiman is described as a honorable man in Quran
Elias is described as honorable man in Quran
Lot is described as honorable man in Quran
list can go on with Job...
- For source wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon
In Islamic tradition, Solomon is venerated as a prophet and a messenger of God, as well as a divinely appointed monarch, who ruled over the Kingdom of Israel. As in Judaism, Islam recognizes Solomon as the son of King David, who is also considered a prophet and a king but contrary to Judaism, Islam completely denies the claim that Solomon had sinned or turned to idolatry.
{{And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, "We are a test, so do not lose faith." But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew.}}.[45]
- For Elias: in the Bible he is described as a man who slaughtered 400 monks see story of Jezabel and Baal
- For Lot in the Bible he is described as a drunk man, his daughter abused of him when he was drunk after the event of Sodom!
4- Quran misguides the perverts people
3:7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Look at the so-called sunnis today: cutting of hands, having sexual slaves, making unjust wars etc...
Peace
Quote from: Wakas on April 05, 2016, 04:29:25 PM
I was recently discussing the topic of undisputed (pretty much) facts about Quran that atheists/agnostics may find interesting, and it was suggested others might find this info helpful, so here is some of them.
If you have some to add, feel free.
Hi,
- As far as I know no human being ever claimed to be its author
- No human (at least nowadays) knows how it came to existence (orally or in written form)
- No human understands it
Quote from: herbman on April 28, 2016, 11:26:12 AM
Undisputed facts about Quran:
1- Quran is written in arabic, this is an undisputed fact see 12:2, 13:37, 16:103, 26:195 etc...
This simple statement is quiet a "big" argument when I asked the same question to a Christian in which language is the Bible written, answer is not easy as it might seem!!!
What ever old Bible archaeologists may found you will never know if it is the original language or just a translation!!!!
2- Quran is written in people's language
43:3 We have made it a Qur'an in arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).
Again this is another argument for my catholic friend :)
Than why the Quran says in 14:04
And that we sent message of a messenger except in the language of his people to state clearly for them......Its obvious that Arabic is not the only language of this planet? The Quran was sent in several different languages considering the fact that Messengers were sent in their own languages and it is not sent down in one geographical area! So if the Quran was sent down in Arabic only, what about those other people in this world? How to make things clear to them? ALLAH will never contradict HIMSELF by saying that he will sent messengers in the language of his people in order to make things clear to them but yet only the Arabic Quran was sent down? How can it be undisputed facts?
Hizbullah,
You may pay attention to that it does not mention Quran in any way. As for the messenger it means the there is a person speaking the tongue of his people in order to reveal information in their own language. Teach about spirituality you can do without a book actually in communion with Allah. This is the danger with belief in a "Holy Book" as people may become obsessed with them. Allah does not guide with books alone and an insightful person can guide "on-the-fly".
Be well
Amenuel
Amenuel
Yes it does, in case you have forgotten, the Quran is a Book that provide detail explanation. Explain in Arabic only and to the Arabs only?
There are many verses in the Quran that says to believe in the Book, let me quote you one...02:02-04
That is the Book [AlKitab] about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious
Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
And who believe what was sent to you, and what was sent before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain
So we are to believe in the unseen, establish prayer spend out what we get, in what was sent to the Messenger and what was sent before the Messenger....So MOF what was sent to he Messenger and before him, if it was not the Quran?
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 20, 2016, 01:39:13 AM
Amenuel
Yes it does, in case you have forgotten, the Quran is a Book that provide detail explanation. Explain in Arabic only and to the Arabs only?
There are many verses in the Quran that says to believe in the Book, let me quote you one...02:02-04
That is the Book [AlKitab] about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious
Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
And who believe what was sent to you, and what was sent before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain
So we are to believe in the unseen, establish prayer spend out what we get, in what was sent to the Messenger and what was sent before the Messenger....So MOF what was sent to he Messenger and before him, if it was not the Quran?
For clarification, it sounds to me like you believe that ALL the messengers were given a (physical) Book exactly like Qur'an (in their own language, of course)? Do you believe this?
Quote from: Comrox on May 20, 2016, 01:57:31 AM
For clarification, it sounds to me like you believe that ALL the messengers were given a (physical) Book exactly like Qur'an (in their own language, of course)? Do you believe this?
Yes, that s what the Quran explicitly says,
Quran 14:04
And that we sent message of a messenger except in the language of his people to state clearly for them......
Another one I thought of was it is claimed to be the direct Word of God, unlike The Bible which is the inspired word of God compiled by multiple authors.
apart from quran, all other books and scriptures may contain words of God and may contain words of pops, priest,rabbis,historians. and in different versions.
with quran its unique , the original language in which direct revelation recived is there since 1400 years atleast ,
people claiming here its been there since adam or some ar claiming since 4th century bc, but they dnt have any historical proof for this,
some people also think muhammad plagarised it or steal it , this evdence in the light of quran also hold no water,
i want some ideas of different people whats actually it is , and for the people who believe on reverse theories of quran where are their proofs or reasoning so that we all investigate it properly,
peace
Quote from: Wakas on May 20, 2016, 04:22:04 AM
Another one I thought of was it is claimed to be the direct Word of God, unlike The Bible which is the inspired word of God compiled by multiple authors.
Only now I saw that you already had a similar point as mine, didn't read your whole post :-[
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 20, 2016, 06:11:24 PM
apart from quran, all other books and scriptures may contain words of God and may contain words of pops, priest,rabbis,historians. and in different versions.
with quran its unique , the original language in which direct revelation recived is there since 1400 years atleast ,
people claiming here its been there since adam or some ar claiming since 4th century bc, but they dnt have any historical proof for this,
some people also think muhammad plagarised it or steal it , this evdence in the light of quran also hold no water,
i want some ideas of different people whats actually it is , and for the people who believe on reverse theories of quran where are their proofs or reasoning so that we all investigate it properly,
peace
Te whole thing with the quran is that no one has some real evidence about it's origin.
Best "evidences" what we have are the hadiths and you know how reliable they are.
Quote from: Bender on May 20, 2016, 07:19:35 PM
Te whole thing with the quran is that no one has some real evidence about it's origin.
Best "evidences" what we have are the hadiths and you know how reliable they are.
but the oldest copy of quran which is in birmingham library right now indicated the dates with the the dates of hadith(history)
its muslims who write the earliest history records i can understand hadith are not reliable but all the histories have same reliablity whether it is by muslims jews christians hindus so in light of history and the oldest copies indicates the muhammad was there and the dates are alright . evidences are enough
but again the people who are claiming opposite of it they dnt have any evidence so far , i will not gona beleive on their theories untill it will come to me with proper resoning and proof or any historical evidence.
peace
Quote from: Bender on May 20, 2016, 07:19:35 PM
Te whole thing with the quran is that no one has some real evidence about it's origin.
Best "evidences" what we have are the hadiths and you know how reliable they are.
The Quran says in 16:89
We have sent down to you the Book as manifestation for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims.The Quran is truely the manifestation of all things including its origin! The Quran says that it was in the era of the Cursive Musnad writings which was presented in the 3rd / 4th Century CE. What further evidences or empirical research do we need?
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 20, 2016, 11:51:13 PM
The Quran says in 16:89
We have sent down to you the Book as manifestation for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims.
The Quran is truely the manifestation of all things including its origin! The Quran says that it was in the era of the Cursive Musnad writings which was presented in the 3rd / 4th Century CE. What further evidences or empirical research do we need?
how can you so sure about the dates i didnt see any dates 3rd or 4th century in whole quran, and where is the evidence?
now dnt reply me in the same manner about the dates 7th century is not mention as well,
red where does quran say something like that can you plz reference it, thanx
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 01:52:16 AM
how can you so sure about the dates i didnt see any dates 3rd or 4th century in whole quran, and where is the evidence?
Cursive Musnad is a writting script dated on palaeographic grounds to the 3rd / 4th Century CE confirmed by Professor Peter Stein, an expert in Ancient South Arabian script, from the University of Jena, Germany .
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 01:52:16 AM
now dnt reply me in the same manner about the dates 7th century .
What are you talking about? Rephrase your sentence
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 02:03:00 AM
Cursive Musnad is a writting script dated on palaeographic grounds to the 3rd / 4th Century CE confirmed by Professor Peter Stein, an expert in Ancient South Arabian script, from the University of Jena, Germany .
whats in there, whether this so called writting script dated on 1000 bc does it make any difference? obviously arabic was not alien language for prophet, it was developed ages before revelation of quran its quite logical, and thats what aqal(reason) suggest us, if Allah want to talk with you he will talk with you in your native language instead of japanese.
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 02:03:00 AM
What are you talking about? Rephrase your sentence
forget about it, i was guessing may be you will reply me in same tone about 7th century , although its not wirtten in quran infact any event in quran is not written in dates its due to a reason, this is a timeless book by timeless God, dnt need dates.
again u didnt give me the answer wher does quran say what you claim? in red
nd one more thing .
professor peter stain,
if he get findings like, 6000 bc, or 1500 ad regarding something about this script, did it mean we blindly follow him or beleive him,
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 02:09:34 AM
whats in there, whether this so called writting script dated on 1000 bc does it make any difference? obviously arabic was not alien language for prophet, it was developed ages before revelation of quran its quite logical, and thats what aqal(reason) suggest us,
Where is your proof? Btw my logic is base from the Quran and it shows me that the original and oldest Arabic version Quran was written in Cursive Musnad script not Hijazi or Kufic script or Nastaliq Script! HIJAZI SCRIPT WAS ADOPTED IN THE 4TH CENTURY / 5TH CENTURY
Raqqush Inscription base on Nabatean Aramaic script dated in the 3rd Century. This is Ancient North Arabian script(http://arabetics.com/public/html/DeArabizing_Arabia/DeArabizing_Arabia_Chapter_3_English_files/image001.png)
Jabal Ramm inscription dated in the 5th Century. [Hijazi Script]. This inscription is the first oldest so far discovered in the Arabic alphabet. The grammar in this inscription is straightforward classical Arabic.(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image012.gif)
So called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription [Hijazi Script] At Umm Al-Jimal. The grammar in this inscription is straightforward classical Arabic.(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image022.jpg)
Zebed Inscription: So called A Pre-Islamic Trilingual Inscription In Greek, Syriac & Arabic from 5th / 6th Century CE. The Arabic is classical Arabic [Hijazi Script].
(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image005.gif)
Jabal Usays Inscription:So called Pre-Islamic Arabic [Hijazi Script] Inscription From 528 CE. This is the only so called pre-Islamic Arabic inscription with historical content.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/90/4a/ee/904aee273b1a96f93443ade5418661fe.jpg)
Harran Inscription: So called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription [Hijazi Script] From 568 CE. A Greek-Arabic bilingual inscription from Harran, near Damascus, Syria.(https://squarekufic.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/harran1.png?w=676)
One of the two earliest Arabic Kūfī inscriptions found in Mount Sal`, Madīnah, Saudi Arabia. Dated 4 Islamic Hijrī calendar (625 CE)(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image014.jpg)
In the 3rd and 4th Century CE, only ANA and ASA were use in the north [Levant & Northern part of Arabian Peninsula] and Yemen [Southern Arabian Peninsula] respectively.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 02:09:34 AM
if Allah want to talk with you he will talk with you in your native language instead of japanese.
Exactly, that was what i am trying to tell you, ALLAH WILL TALK TO US IN OUR NATIVE LANGUAGE AS PER QURAN 14:04!
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 02:09:34 AM
again u didnt give me the answer wher does quran say what you claim? in red
My replied to you in my thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 18, 2016, 01:58:46 AM
And when you see them, you wonder their personality, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. They were Musnad script [on] wood....[/size]
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 02:16:46 AM
nd one more thing .
professor peter stain,
if he get findings like, 6000 bc, or 1500 ad regarding something about this script, did it mean we blindly follow him or beleive him,
Say: "Travel through the earth and see how ALLAH did originate creation; Palaeography is the knowledge of ancient and historical handwriting. Experts like Prof Stein confirms of the forms and processes of writing and the textual content of documents. This is what knowledge is all about. Without knowledge, you are nothing, you will only be a blind follower. Thats why ALLAH says travel the earth not only for vacation but also for study purposes.
Furthermore, the most important thing is that the Quran is the manifestation of all things. Whateever the Quran agrees we will accept and what ever the Quran rejects we will reject.
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 04:31:49 AM
Exactly, that was what i am trying to tell you, ALLAH WILL TALK TO US IN OUR NATIVE LANGUAGE AS PER QURAN 14:04!
And He hasn't stopped "talking" or should I say "communicating"..
Most of the time He's talking not in language at all... but in events and symbols..
We just need to be sensitive enough to listen..
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 04:44:57 AM
Furthermore, the most important thing is that the Quran is the manifestation of all things. Whateever the Quran agrees we will accept and what ever the Quran rejects we will reject.
Incorrect.. God is the manifestation of all things and not some holy book..
Whatever God has PLANNED / Agrees it will HAPPEN and whatever God Reject / Not Planned it will NOT HAPPEN.
The true God's law doesn't need any help from 3rd parties to be enforced.. The true God's law is being enforced automatically..
We just need to accept what God has planned.. whether it's willingly or unwillingly.. happily or angrily.. it's up to us...
Because sometimes what God has planned is not in accordance to our own wishes..
The most undisputed facts about Quran are:
- Considered to be authored by God by some while some others consider it was authored by human.
- Originally it was written by Human or group of humans somewhere in the middle east region.
The rest are 'subjective' in nature and can be disputed..
Quote from: Jafar on May 21, 2016, 08:39:46 AM
And He hasn't stopped "talking" or should I say "communicating"..
Most of the time He's talking not in language at all... but in events and symbols..
We just need to be sensitive enough to listen..
Incorrect.. God is the manifestation of all things and not some holy book..
Whatever God has PLANNED / Agrees it will HAPPEN and whatever God Reject / Not Planned it will NOT HAPPEN.
The true God's law doesn't need any help from 3rd parties to be enforced.. The true God's law is being enforced automatically..
We just need to accept what God has planned.. whether it's willingly or unwillingly.. happily or angrily.. it's up to us...
Because sometimes what God has planned is not in accordance to our own wishes..
How do one know the concept of GOD? How do one know the oneness of God is to accept that HE is distinct from everything else? How do one know the concept of GOD if there is no one to teach that GOD exist and that it would not suit GOD s majesty and glory to associate the limited attributes of HIS creation to HIM because HE is not restricted in any way, while HIS creation is. Yes you are absolutely correct, GOD, is a great manifestation of HIS mercy, but how do you now that? HOW Jafar? Do you think all this while it is the wisdom of mankind that this world functions. If you do not KNOW the concept of GOD HOW COULD YOU accept or rather how do you know that it is GOD who planned.. whether it's willingly or unwillingly.. happily or angrily?
If it is not that GOD talk to his Prophets in HIS level thereafter he sent his prophet to talk to us in our level so as to teach, us, mankind, explain HIS decrees, HIS own words and wisdom, thru them. HE show us thru them what we do not know. That is where civilization comes into being. It is GOD who made civilization for mankind by sending HIS Prophets and Messengers. It is not at our own free will. Mankind were at ground zero. Once the message had been finalised thats it! No more Prophets only messengers.
Its human nature to defy things which they are not aware, if suppose GOD would have not sent HIS prophets and a HIS Books, than it will be a different scenario, it will be the opposite of what Jafar had said. The Quran 06:157
Nor can you say: ?If the Book had been sent down to us, We would have been better guided than they were.? When GOD send messengers and HIS books, you deny them, and if GOD do not send messengers and HIS books, you will ask, why GOD do not send messengers and HIS books as proves? So this how you will twist and turn, beat around the bush....
The people of Musa saw miracles and yet they denied the GOD in many occasion. Why Jafar?
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 10:47:37 AM
Yes you are absolutely correct, GOD, is a great manifestation of HIS mercy, but how do you now that? HOW Jafar? Do you think all this while it is the wisdom of mankind that this world functions. If you do not KNOW the concept of GOD HOW COULD YOU accept or rather how do you know that it is GOD who planned.. whether it's willingly or unwillingly.. happily or angrily?
How? You should ask Him directly...
From my own personal experience it is just a matter of 'realization'..
For you things might be different.. for others things might be different as well..
Everybody has their own role to play...
QuoteIt is not at our own free will. Mankind were at ground zero.
On the absolute level, there is no such thing as 'free' will..
QuoteOnce the message had been finalised thats it! No more Prophets only messengers.
Nope the message is not yet 'finalised'.. if finalized here you mean no more revelation..
Revelation is a continuing process up until now, and instead of "stopping" it's actually "accelerating"..
I don't want to go into "what is prophets or messenger" because truly it doesn't matter, the revelation is what truly matter.. the channel doesn't matter..
QuoteIts human nature to defy things which they are not aware, if suppose GOD would have not sent HIS prophets and a HIS Books, than it will be a different scenario, it will be the opposite of what Jafar had said.
The tradition or notion of "Prophets" only exist on a specific culture among human..(Semites / Israelites)
The majority of human doesn't even have this conception of "prophet" or "Gods spokeperson".
And or see themselves as the "Chosen one" and / or "Most enlightened" compared to the other human.
What would happen to those without the notion of "prophets"? Well see the humanity all around you now.. they're doing ok, progressing.. rapidly as time progress... they are billions in number... and growing..To some extent those who doesn't have any notion of "prophet" (or holy books) fare better than those who do..
Quote
When GOD send messengers and HIS books, you deny them, and if GOD do not send messengers and HIS books, you will ask, why GOD do not send messengers and HIS books as proves? So this how you will twist and turn, beat around the bush....
The people of Musa saw miracles and yet they denied the GOD in many occasion. Why Jafar?
Ergh... billions of those who didn't even have any notion of "God's Spokeperson" or "God's Book" never asked for one.. to them the entire notion of "God has wrote a book" is totally ridiculous..
In the same manner as you find the concept of "God's developed a holy computer application" ridiculous...
Regarding Musa, I wasn't even born when that even (supposed) to happen...
I really can't tell what truly happened.. perhaps it never happened at all... perhaps he never exist at all..
So I cannot comment merely on speculation or "based on the story of others"..
Last but not least.. God "speaks" through conscience.. never lose your conscience, side with it at all time..
God's revelation hasn't stop...
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 04:31:49 AM
Where is your proof? Btw my logic is base from the Quran and it shows me that the original and oldest Arabic version Quran was written in Cursive Musnad script not Hijazi or Kufic script or Nastaliq Script! HIJAZI SCRIPT WAS ADOPTED IN THE 4TH CENTURY / 5TH CENTURY
Raqqush Inscription base on Nabatean Aramaic script dated in the 3rd Century. This is Ancient North Arabian script
(http://arabetics.com/public/html/DeArabizing_Arabia/DeArabizing_Arabia_Chapter_3_English_files/image001.png)
Jabal Ramm inscription dated in the 5th Century. [Hijazi Script]. This inscription is the first oldest so far discovered in the Arabic alphabet. The grammar in this inscription is straightforward classical Arabic.
(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image012.gif)
So called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription [Hijazi Script] At Umm Al-Jimal. The grammar in this inscription is straightforward classical Arabic.
(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image022.jpg)
Zebed Inscription: So called A Pre-Islamic Trilingual Inscription In Greek, Syriac & Arabic from 5th / 6th Century CE. The Arabic is classical Arabic [Hijazi Script].
(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image005.gif)
Jabal Usays Inscription:So called Pre-Islamic Arabic [Hijazi Script] Inscription From 528 CE. This is the only so called pre-Islamic Arabic inscription with historical content.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/90/4a/ee/904aee273b1a96f93443ade5418661fe.jpg)
Harran Inscription: So called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription [Hijazi Script] From 568 CE. A Greek-Arabic bilingual inscription from Harran, near Damascus, Syria.
(https://squarekufic.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/harran1.png?w=676)
One of the two earliest Arabic Kūfī inscriptions found in Mount Sal`, Madīnah, Saudi Arabia. Dated 4 Islamic Hijrī calendar (625 CE)
(http://arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image014.jpg)
In the 3rd and 4th Century CE, only ANA and ASA were use in the north [Levant & Northern part of Arabian Peninsula] and Yemen [Southern Arabian Peninsula] respectively.
Exactly, that was what i am trying to tell you, ALLAH WILL TALK TO US IN OUR NATIVE LANGUAGE AS PER QURAN 14:04!
My replied to you in my thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90
all your post is just showing me some arabic test, musnad test, symbol test, watch ancient aliens on H2 channel you will geet lot more i m sure, what does that mean, God is alien by presenting these pictures shit do you think that its proof ,
in more clear way, if i find a text of urdu or persion language dated back 2000 years ago, scientist verify it, does it mean my language was there , i know the history of udu is not more than 200 years old, this language drived from arabic, and persion, so if muahmmad comes this day and start reveling quran in urdu , and some archealogist find a test dated back 150 years old by syed ahmed khan , does it mean urdu quran is also `150 years old, use some common sense atleast.
ok again where is my
answer, from
quran what you claim? i know u dnt have any answer so stop trying to distract innocent people by these so called writings, its my third time i m asking you what u claim and you are still playing hide and seek with me,
peace God bless you
ok find me something even a single verse from dated back text of so called musnad , in which we see any quranic verse, of todays quran,
its an open challange come on now, lets see where we are standing,
i just need a single verse on any tablets wodden frame , any leather pad, any animal skin, that indicates quran, do you or anybody in this world have it?if not then i m sorry to even waste my time on this theory anynmore,
the traditonal dates of quran is perfectly match with the oldest manuscript of quran that is in birmingham library.
burden of evidence is on your head ,
Two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript in the Mingana Collection of Middle Eastern manuscripts of the University of Birmingham's Cadbury Research Library were radiocarbon dated in 2015 between 568 and 645, suggesting that it may be among the oldest Quran manuscripts to date
The Mingana Collection, comprising over 3,000 documents, was compiled by Alphonse Mingana, in the 1920s, and was funded by Edward Cadbury, a philanthropist and businessman of the Birmingham-based chocolate-making Cadbury family.
i gave you my proofs of these so called people who are expert in examining the dates. but the difference between my findings and your findings are very different , i provide you my proof of quran, nd you are providing me a shit of arabic text written by someone in 3rd or 4th century, if it was quran then i would have been thinking about it, not arguing with you, hope you got it.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 20, 2016, 08:34:28 PM
but the oldest copy of quran which is in birmingham library right now indicated the dates with the the dates of hadith(history)
its muslims who write the earliest history records i can understand hadith are not reliable but all the histories have same reliablity whether it is by muslims jews christians hindus so in light of history and the oldest copies indicates the muhammad was there and the dates are alright . evidences are enough
but again the people who are claiming opposite of it they dnt have any evidence so far , i will not gona beleive on their theories untill it will come to me with proper resoning and proof or any historical evidence.
peace
Hi,
RED: The oldest found does not mean it was the first one.
BLUE: There was some years ago a study done in the Netherlands about Mohammed, they could not find anything besides the ahadith that indicates the existence of Mohammed. I mean thus sources besides the arab ahadith.
What I like to know is how Chapter 12 (Yusuf) end up in the bible it has not to be neglected similarities with the story in the quran.
Quote from: Jafar on May 21, 2016, 08:43:16 AM
- Originally it was written by Human or group of humans somewhere in the middle east region.
This is a speculation.
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2016, 01:04:00 PM
Hi,
RED: The oldest found does not mean it was the first one.
i did not say its the first one , i said its the oldest one till date. may be we will find more older than this one in near future, before five years ago who was aware about it.
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2016, 01:04:00 PM
BLUE: There was some years ago a study done in the Netherlands about Mohammed, they could not find anything besides the ahadith that indicates the existence of Mohammed. I mean thus sources besides the arab ahadith.
netherland why you are going so far, some years ago research happened here about jesus christ, moses, noah , but they did not find anything apart from bibilical stories ,
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2016, 01:04:00 PM
What I like to know is how Chapter 12 (Yusuf) end up in the bible it has not to be neglected similarities with the story in the quran.
its not my headache as i told you bible may contain words of God but also words of other sources, so the stories of bible must be match with quran its something normal and logical, but the stories should filter through quran , if its going agaisnt quran we should be careful.
@ bender
jsesu christ make dead alive, can anybody prove at this age, apart from bibal or quran,
muhammad was there can anybody prove in this age,apart from quran or hadith,
simply we cannot go back to the age and verify it,
may be bibal and quran are full of stories of old people,
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 01:12:53 PM
i did not say its the first one , i said its the oldest one till date. may be we will find more older than this one in near future, before five years ago who was aware about it.
What I wanted to say is that maybe the first one was 2000 or 3000 years ago, we can not say anything about the first one by a found copy.
Quotenetherland why you are going so far, some years ago research happened here about jesus christ, moses, noah , but they did not find anything apart from bibilical stories ,
I live there.
BLUE: And this has not to be neglected. Why can't we find outside sources?
btw the strange thing is that the "oldest" one (Noah) has more external sources than the younger ones. Everywhere in the world there are some legends and myths about an event which has great similarities with Noah's story.
Quoteits not my headache as i told you bible may contain words of God but also words of other sources, so the stories of bible must be match with quran its something normal and logical, but the stories should filter through quran , if its going agaisnt quran we should be careful.
Maybe it's not your headache, but for those who want to study the origin these kind of things have not to be neglected.
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2016, 01:24:34 PM
What I wanted to say is that maybe the first one was 2000 or 3000 years ago, we can not say anything about the first one by a found copy.
I live there.
BLUE: And this has not to be neglected. Why can't we find outside sources?
btw the strange thing is that the "oldest" one (Noah) has more external sources than the younger ones. Everywhere in the world there are some legends and myths about an event which has great similarities with Noah's story.
Maybe it's not your headache, but for those who want to study the origin these kind of things have not to be neglected.
ok what i understand is we did not get eachother properly? untill i will listen about your understanding of muhammad,
with respect to quran , about the other sources i and u know very well , about their realibilty .
first tell me according to your understanind who muhammad is? where was he? or it was not a muhammad at all? forget about any history of muslims or christians , just anlyse it and i m sure you already research about it, so share ur understanding of muhammad with me, then we will proceed talk in a manner we both understand.
peace.
noah ark is also mention in quran , and history verify it, soddom and gomorrah, and lot of other things , are in perfec t harmony with quran , but we always doubt about the refferd person of book at that time he was present there so it must be something that raise questions regarding his personality. may be you are not getting what i try to say i make it simple,
let say today 2016 ad a messenger X comes up with live miracles and its sure its from God and tells us the stories of old including muhammad what he done where was he , how he wirte and collect quran, and after 1400 years, in 3400 ad we will ask who was x there is nothing mention about him in the book what he given us, we need to see wikipedia todays tenology that is recording the records of individual, can we rely on wikipedia we all know how its works,
mr x God mention four time in new quran and now we have nothing to prove who was mr x,
the present tense and past tense are in different sturucture, when quran was revelaing prophet was present, gabriel didnnot directly hand over this quran to humanity i think.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 12:45:35 PM
all your post is just showing me some arabic test, musnad test, symbol test, watch ancient aliens on H2 channel you will geet lot more i m sure, what does that mean, God is alien by presenting these pictures shit do you think that its proof ,
What I have shown you are Ancient North Arabian Text and Classical Arabic Text which you do not have any knowledge whatsoever. you have been watching too much H2 channel and to you GOD IS ALIEN. You have the right to your own opinion
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 12:45:35 PM
in more clear way, if i find a text of urdu or persion language dated back 2000 years ago, scientist verify it, does it mean my language was there , i know the history of udu is not more than 200 years old, this language drived from arabic, and persion, so if muahmmad comes this day and start reveling quran in urdu , and some archealogist find a test dated back 150 years old by syed ahmed khan , does it mean urdu quran is also `150 years old, use some common sense atleast.
So much gibberish!
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 12:45:35 PM
ok again where is my answer, from quran what you claim? i know u dnt have any answer so stop trying to distract innocent people by these so called writings, its my third time i m asking you what u claim and you are still playing hide and seek with me,
It seems that you do not have a single knowledge of Quran and the history of the Middle East. You cannot comprehend simple English! You dont even bother to read what i have shown and talking gibberish!
This will be the third time in which i will show you the Quranic evidence
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 04:31:49 AM
My replied to you in my thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 17, 2016, 10:58:46 PM
Q:63:04 - And when you see them, you wonder their personality, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. They were Musnad script [on] wood....[/size]
There are more Quranic evidences and historical evidences, but whats the point showing to those who do not have the capacity of differentiating the truth and falsehood.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 12:58:23 PM
ok find me something even a single verse from dated back text of so called musnad , in which we see any quranic verse, of todays quran,
its an open challange come on now, lets see where we are standing,
i just need a single verse on any tablets wodden frame , any leather pad, any animal skin, that indicates quran, do you or anybody in this world have it?if not then i m sorry to even waste my time on this theory anynmore,
Please read and if you do not understand, get an interpretor - http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 12:58:23 PM
the traditonal dates of quran is perfectly match with the oldest manuscript of quran that is in birmingham library.
burden of evidence is on your head ,
Two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript in the Mingana Collection of Middle Eastern manuscripts of the University of Birmingham's Cadbury Research Library were radiocarbon dated in 2015 between 568 and 645, suggesting that it may be among the oldest Quran manuscripts to date
The Mingana Collection, comprising over 3,000 documents, was compiled by Alphonse Mingana, in the 1920s, and was funded by Edward Cadbury, a philanthropist and businessman of the Birmingham-based chocolate-making Cadbury family.
The Birmingham Quran was written in Hijazi / Jazm script. Historical evidences which i have shown you [2nd onwards up to 2nd last] were written in Hijazi script. This script base on C14 and paleography, dated sometime in the 5th to the 6th Century CE. This script was used for writing Classical Arabic, the same as the Quranic Arabic. By early 7th Century CE, the written scipt used were mostly Kufic [last evidence which i have shown]. If this is the case, it is plausible the Birmingham Quran was written in the Middle of the 6th Century where the so called Arab prophet was not even born yet! Furthermore, the 3,000 documents compiled by Mingana were not all Quranic but mostly Biblical written in Syriac script.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 12:58:23 PM
i gave you my proofs of these so called people who are expert in examining the dates. but the difference between my findings and your findings are very different , i provide you my proof of quran, nd you are providing me a shit of arabic text written by someone in 3rd or 4th century, if it was quran then i would have been thinking about it, not arguing with you, hope you got it.
I have already given you the GREATEST PROOF, THE QURAN 63:04. As the Quran says, it is a manifestation of all things, indeed, it manifest itself to those who use their faculties of intelligent, eyesight and hearing.
For those who refuse and love to follow sectarian conjectures, the Quran says
Q:02:18 - Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return
Quote from: Jafar on May 21, 2016, 11:33:30 AM
How? You should ask Him directly...
From my own personal experience it is just a matter of 'realization'..
For you things might be different.. for others things might be different as well..
Everybody has their own role to play...
On the absolute level, there is no such thing as 'free' will..
Nope the message is not yet 'finalised'.. if finalized here you mean no more revelation..
Revelation is a continuing process up until now, and instead of "stopping" it's actually "accelerating"..
I don't want to go into "what is prophets or messenger" because truly it doesn't matter, the revelation is what truly matter.. the channel doesn't matter..
The tradition or notion of "Prophets" only exist on a specific culture among human..(Semites / Israelites)
The majority of human doesn't even have this conception of "prophet" or "Gods spokeperson".
And or see themselves as the "Chosen one" and / or "Most enlightened" compared to the other human.
What would happen to those without the notion of "prophets"? Well see the humanity all around you now.. they're doing ok, progressing.. rapidly as time progress... they are billions in number... and growing..To some extent those who doesn't have any notion of "prophet" (or holy books) fare better than those who do..
Ergh... billions of those who didn't even have any notion of "God's Spokeperson" or "God's Book" never asked for one.. to them the entire notion of "God has wrote a book" is totally ridiculous..
In the same manner as you find the concept of "God's developed a holy computer application" ridiculous...
Regarding Musa, I wasn't even born when that even (supposed) to happen...
I really can't tell what truly happened.. perhaps it never happened at all... perhaps he never exist at all..
So I cannot comment merely on speculation or "based on the story of others"..
Last but not least.. God "speaks" through conscience.. never lose your conscience, side with it at all time..
God's revelation hasn't stop...
You did not answer the first few sentences of my question?
Let me tell you the story of Abraham. Now Abraham who was also stated in the Hindu Book of high dignitary, even god. He was called Brahma in the Hindu book.
Quran 02:74 - 82
And, when Abraham said to his father Azar, "Do you take idols as deities? Indeed, I see you and your people to be in manifest error."
And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain
So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."
And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."
And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with.
Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, a true monotheist, and I am not of the the polytheists.
And his people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me concerning ALLAH while He has guided me? And I fear not what you associate with HIM unless my Lord should will something. My Lord encompasses all things in knowledge; then will you not remember?
And how should I fear what you associate while you do not fear that you have associated with ALLAH that for which HE has not sent down to you any authority? So which of the two parties has more right to security, if you should know?
They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are [rightly] guided.Prophet Abraham was a knowledgeable man, he used his faculties of intelligence, eyesight and hearing. With this he was granted Prophethood. He conveyed the message to his people but they ignored him. They attempted to kill him but were not successful and he managed to escape.
They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are [rightly] guided.If your are a Deist and believe in the last days as the Quran confirms that those who believe in ONE GOD and the Last Days, you are Muslim. That is good enough! How many in this world will even be a Deist if its not for the message that GOD sent to mankind. Those who are successful, probably have a Deist believe in them. As long as you believe in the ONE LORD and the Last days, you are safe. GOD knows there are people like you and HE already conveyed that message. You and me do not know if not for the message of the messengers that were conveyed to our forefathers.
Q:49:14 - The Arabs said, "We are Mu'mens (believers)." Say, "You have not believed; what you should say is, 'We are Muslims (submitters),' until belief is established in your hearts." If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 07:27:52 PM
This will be the third time in which i will show you the Quranic evidence
And if you saw them , their bodies pleases/marvels you, and if they say (talk), you hear/listen to their statement/word as if they are supported wood (logs), they think/suppose each/ every loud strong cry/torture raid is on (against) them, they are the enemy, so be warned/cautious (of) them , God fought them , (so) where/how (do) they be turned away ?
Yusuf Ali When thou lookest at them, their exteriors please thee; and when they speak, thou listenest to their words. They are as (worthless as hollow) pieces of timber propped up, (unable to stand on their own). They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah be on them! How are they deluded (away from the Truth)!
Pickthal And when thou seest them their figures please thee; and if they speak thou givest ear unto their speech. (They are) as though they were blocks of wood in striped cloaks. They deem every shout to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. Allah confound them! How they are perverted!
Arberry When thou seest them, their bodies please thee; but when they speak, thou listenest to their speech, and it is as they were propped-up timbers. They think every cry is against them. They are the enemy; so beware of them. God assail them! How they are perverted!
Shakir And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?
Sarwar When the prayer ends, disperse through the land and seek the favor of God. Remember Him often so that perhaps you will have everlasting happiness.
H/K/Saheeh And when you see them, their forms please you, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. [They are] as if they were pieces of wood propped up they think that every shout is against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Malik When you see them, their good stature pleases you; and when they speak, you listen to what they say. Yet they are as worthless as hollow pieces of propped up timber. Every shout they hear, they think it to be against them. They are your enemies, so guard yourselves against them. May Allah destroy them! How perverse they are
Maulana Ali** And when thou seest them, their persons please thee; and if they speak, thou listenest to their speech. They are like pieces of wood, clad with garments. They think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them! How they are turned back!
Free Minds And when you see them, you are impressed by their physical stature; and when they speak, you listen to their eloquence. They are like blocks of wood propped-up. They think that every call is intended for them. These are the enemies, so beware of them. May God condemn them; they have deviated.
Qaribullah When you see them their bodies please you, but when they speak and you listen to their sayings, they are like proppedup timber. Every shout (they hear) they take it to be against them. They are the enemy be wary of them. Allah kills them! How perverse they are!
George Sale When thou beholdest them, their persons please thee: And if they speak, thou hearest their discourse with delight. They resemble pieces of timber set up against a wall. They imagine every shout to be against them. They are enemies; wherefore beware of them. God curse them: How are they turned aside from the truth!
JM Rodwell When thou seest them, their persons make thee marvel; and if they speak, thou listenest with pleasure to their discourse. Like timbers are they leaning against a wall! They think that every shout is against them. They are enemies-Beware of them then-God do
Asad Now when thou seest them, their outward appearance may please thee; and when they speak, thou art inclined to lend ear to what they say. 4 [But though they may seem as sure of themselves] as if they were timbers [firmly] propped up, they think that every shout is [directed] against them. They are the [real] enemies [of all faith], so beware of them. [They deserve the imprecation,] "May God destroy them!" 5 How perverted are their minds!
Khalifa** When you see them, you may be impressed by their looks. And when they speak, you may listen to their eloquence. They are like standing logs. They think that every call is intended against them. These are the real enemies; beware of them. GOD condemns them; they have deviated
Hilali/Khan** And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May Allah curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.
QXP Shabbir Ahemd** Now when you see them, their looks may impress you. And if they speak, you are inclined to listen to their speech. But they are like wooden logs propped up. (Empty of inner strength unable to stand on their own feet). They think that every call is directed against them. These are the real enemies, so beware of them. Allah condemns them. They are far deviated.its you who need to understand what this quranic verse is talking about ,this verse clearly talking about people and people are like wooden frame , not the script of quran,
now i m doubt about your mental health .
you failed fourth time its enough to disqualified you from any claim what you are saying,
thank you so much for your evidence :bravo:
i highlight it i doubt about your eyessight advice for you go to dcotor and get your eyes checkup it you who are blind , not only by eyes by mind as well,
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 07:56:39 PM
I have already given you the GREATEST PROOF, THE QURAN 63:04. As the Quran says, it is a manifestation of all things, indeed, it manifest itself to those who use their faculties of intelligent, eyesight and hearing.
For those who refuse and love to follow sectarian conjectures, the Quran says
Q:02:18 - Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return
exactly people of intelligence understand very well about this verse , but people like you i m doubt about it, so this verse perfectly fit for people like you,
Q:63:04 - And when you see them, you wonder their personality, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. They were Musnad script [on] wood....
this is your interpretation, do astagfar as much as you can for changing the meanings of quranic verse , how dare you to doing dishonesty with the book of God, do you have any fear or you forget the consequenses of rashad khalifa.
green words musnad script, nobody in the whole history interpret it like this , who gave you lisence to change the meanings of this verse, are you claiming urself a messenger or you have direct orders from God to change it like this
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 11:46:12 PM
And if you saw them , their bodies pleases/marvels you, and if they say (talk), you hear/listen to their statement/word as if they are supported wood (logs), they think/suppose each/ every loud strong cry/torture raid is on (against) them, they are the enemy, so be warned/cautious (of) them , God fought them , (so) where/how (do) they be turned away ?
Yusuf Ali When thou lookest at them, their exteriors please thee; and when they speak, thou listenest to their words. They are as (worthless as hollow) pieces of timber propped up, (unable to stand on their own). They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah be on them! How are they deluded (away from the Truth)!
Pickthal And when thou seest them their figures please thee; and if they speak thou givest ear unto their speech. (They are) as though they were blocks of wood in striped cloaks. They deem every shout to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. Allah confound them! How they are perverted!
Arberry When thou seest them, their bodies please thee; but when they speak, thou listenest to their speech, and it is as they were propped-up timbers. They think every cry is against them. They are the enemy; so beware of them. God assail them! How they are perverted!
Shakir And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?
Sarwar When the prayer ends, disperse through the land and seek the favor of God. Remember Him often so that perhaps you will have everlasting happiness.
H/K/Saheeh And when you see them, their forms please you, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. [They are] as if they were pieces of wood propped up they think that every shout is against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Malik When you see them, their good stature pleases you; and when they speak, you listen to what they say. Yet they are as worthless as hollow pieces of propped up timber. Every shout they hear, they think it to be against them. They are your enemies, so guard yourselves against them. May Allah destroy them! How perverse they are
Maulana Ali** And when thou seest them, their persons please thee; and if they speak, thou listenest to their speech. They are like pieces of wood, clad with garments. They think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them! How they are turned back!
Free Minds And when you see them, you are impressed by their physical stature; and when they speak, you listen to their eloquence. They are like blocks of wood propped-up. They think that every call is intended for them. These are the enemies, so beware of them. May God condemn them; they have deviated.
Qaribullah When you see them their bodies please you, but when they speak and you listen to their sayings, they are like proppedup timber. Every shout (they hear) they take it to be against them. They are the enemy be wary of them. Allah kills them! How perverse they are!
George Sale When thou beholdest them, their persons please thee: And if they speak, thou hearest their discourse with delight. They resemble pieces of timber set up against a wall. They imagine every shout to be against them. They are enemies; wherefore beware of them. God curse them: How are they turned aside from the truth!
JM Rodwell When thou seest them, their persons make thee marvel; and if they speak, thou listenest with pleasure to their discourse. Like timbers are they leaning against a wall! They think that every shout is against them. They are enemies-Beware of them then-God do
Asad Now when thou seest them, their outward appearance may please thee; and when they speak, thou art inclined to lend ear to what they say. 4 [But though they may seem as sure of themselves] as if they were timbers [firmly] propped up, they think that every shout is [directed] against them. They are the [real] enemies [of all faith], so beware of them. [They deserve the imprecation,] "May God destroy them!" 5 How perverted are their minds!
Khalifa** When you see them, you may be impressed by their looks. And when they speak, you may listen to their eloquence. They are like standing logs. They think that every call is intended against them. These are the real enemies; beware of them. GOD condemns them; they have deviated
Hilali/Khan** And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May Allah curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.
QXP Shabbir Ahemd** Now when you see them, their looks may impress you. And if they speak, you are inclined to listen to their speech. But they are like wooden logs propped up. (Empty of inner strength unable to stand on their own feet). They think that every call is directed against them. These are the real enemies, so beware of them. Allah condemns them. They are far deviated.
its you who need to understand what this quranic verse is talking about ,this verse clearly talking about people and people are like wooden frame , not the script of quran,
now i m doubt about your mental health .
you failed fourth time its enough to disqualified you from any claim what you are saying,
thank you so much for your evidence :bravo:
i highlight it i doubt about your eyessight advice for you go to dcotor and get your eyes checkup it you who are blind , not only by eyes by mind as well,
An ignorant man is he who has no knowledge, a stupid man is he who knows not that he has no knowledge, and a fool is he who has no understanding of his lack of understanding. The Quran gives much importance to the intellect and always addresses the intelligent ones while condemning those who do not use their intellect. The Quran also urges man to use their intellect in order to see and experience the truth.
Only those who are deaf dumb and blind who only think they have knowledge but in actual facts nothing is in their brain. Thank you for showing me that you are a sectarian blind follower.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 11:55:39 PM
Q:63:04 - And when you see them, you wonder their personality, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. They were Musnad script [on] wood....
this is your interpretation, do astagfar as much as you can for changing the meanings of quranic verse , how dare you to doing dishonesty with the book of God, do you have any fear or you forget the consequenses of rashad khalifa.
green words musnad script, nobody in the whole history interpret it like this , who gave you lisence to change the meanings of this verse, are you claiming urself a messenger or you have direct orders from God to change it like this
Who gave the translators the right to translate the Arabic Quran, they were not even Arabs?
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 12:06:12 AM
Who gave the translators the right to translate the Arabic Quran, they were not even Arabs?
one word for you check mate,
i tear apart you intelligence from inside out,
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 12:03:33 AM
Thank you for showing me that you are a sectarian blind follower.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
check mate my friend focus your attentions on verses still not convince then see corups .uran and find me a word script there,
:yay: i hope u will not find, if you find we will play again right now all of ur chess players including queen king castle night bishops are ripped apart . go find some more proofs and we will play again :elektro:
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 21, 2016, 08:27:48 PM
Let me tell you the story of Abraham. Now Abraham who was also stated in the Hindu Book of high dignitary, even god. He was called Brahma in the Hindu book.
I don't think so.. that Abraham = Brahma is purely speculation..
And what "Hindu book" are you talking about here?
I never aware of a book titled "Hindu"...
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 12:10:55 AM
one word for you check mate,
i tear apart you intelligence from inside out,
You are so stupid you did not realize that i was the one who torn you a part.
Please carry on crying, i like to see a retarded cries
Quote from: Jafar on May 22, 2016, 01:01:30 AM
I don't think so.. that Abraham = Brahma is purely speculation..
And what "Hindu book" are you talking about here?
I never aware of a book titled "Hindu"...
Abraham and Brahma were one and same person. Abraham was exactly 100 years old when Sarah bore him Ishaaq, Genesis 17:21! It is an interesting fact that IN THE HINDU HOLY BOOK - The Vedas, it is also known that Abraham [Brahma] and Sarah [Saraswati] had their first born when Abraham was at the age of 100 years old.
The names of Ishaaq and Ishmael are known in Sanskrit:;
(Semitic) Ishaaq = (Sanskrit) Ishakhu = ?Leader of Shiva [Nation];
(Semitic) Ishmael = (Sanskrit) Ish-Mahal = ?Great Shiva [Nation];
The Ancient Ebla Tablet found in Syria in 1975, mentioned Abraham and Ishmael.
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 01:13:32 AM
You are so stupid you did not realize that i was the one who torn you a part.
Please carry on crying, i like to see a retarded cries
oh really, :rotfl:
i know its the matter of ego now , but ego hold no water in front of reality, not only you everybody who try to challange the words of Allah they get defeated very badly , i feel sympathy for ur emotions , but sorry for ur defeat hope so next time u will get some backup in ur defense, better luck next time, :ignore:
changing the meanings of verse is intelligence, :&
ur intelligence is perfectly stupidity , what we say height of stupidity
Abraham was a prophet so a human having normal life span like humans ,on the other hand brahma is believed to be first 'jiva' he is a 'devta' ,architect who builds all the universe with order from The universal god Parameshvara or the Eternal Para-brahma and also his life span is billions of human years.
Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities in Hinduism. If you told a fundamentalist Hindu that they were human, he will probably throw slippers at you.
i think somebody need pyscatrist. may God bless him.
according to hindus they got 33 million gods including monkey god hanuman,
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 03:47:18 AM
oh really, :rotfl:
i know its the matter of ego now , but ego hold no water in front of reality, not only you everybody who try to challange the words of Allah they get defeated very badly , i feel sympathy for ur emotions , but sorry for ur defeat hope so next time u will get some backup in ur defense, better luck next time, :ignore:
I was not challenging the words of ALLAH, in fact i was translating the correct meaning of the sentence. Its pertaining to speech and it is correlated with the script of the speech. i am not forcing anyone to take my words, is my personal understanding.
For mockers like you, ALLAH says
Q:30:10 - Then evil was the end of those who did evil, because they rejected the communications of ALLAH and used to mock them.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 03:47:18 AM
changing the meanings of verse is intelligence, :&
ur intelligence is perfectly stupidity , what we say height of stupidity
Stupidity refers to those who do not have a mind of his own to think. By reading the verses without comprehending what its all about, without checking the rules of grammer, thats stupidity. By following blindly, thats stupidity.
Unfortunately, sectarian like you will never admit their stupidity, they only think they are the best of the best. Anyways, good luck to you and peace!
Just a piece of reminder
Q:07:179 - And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. For them intelligence not they understand with them and for them eyes not they see with them and for them ears not they hear with them. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 04:51:05 AM
I was not challenging the words of ALLAH, in fact i was translating the correct meaning of the sentence. Its pertaining to speech and it is correlated with the script of the speech. i am not forcing anyone to take my words, is my personal understanding.
For mockers like you, ALLAH says
Q:30:10 - Then evil was the end of those who did evil, because they rejected the communications of ALLAH and used to mock them.
Stupidity refers to those who do not have a mind of his own to think. By reading the verses without comprehending what its all about, without checking the rules of grammer, thats stupidity. By following blindly, thats stupidity.
Unfortunately, sectarian like you will never admit their stupidity, they only think they are the best of the best. Anyways, good luck to you and peace!
Just a piece of reminder
Q:07:179 - And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. For them intelligence not they understand with them and for them eyes not they see with them and for them ears not they hear with them. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.
BLUE . lol are you language expert or gabriel come to tecch you after 1432 years.
RED perfectly suited to you, coz i represent almost all the accepted transaltions where nobody claim what you are claiming by your so called intellegence.
BROWN , my side its always peace and God bless you. only allah is best and best, rest of the tom dick and harries like you and me do mistakes
BTW i m not a secterian and this piece of reminder you need it, you are doing cheating and lying about verses not me, becareful .
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 04:14:16 AM
Abraham was a prophet so a human having normal life span like humans ,on the other hand brahma is believed to be first 'jiva' he is a 'devta' ,architect who builds all the universe with order from The universal god Parameshvara or the Eternal Para-brahma and also his life span is billions of human years.
Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities in Hinduism. If you told a fundamentalist Hindu that they were human, he will probably throw slippers at you.
i think somebody need pyscatrist. may God bless him.
according to hindus they got 33 million gods including monkey god hanuman,
So you believe Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities? Now you are going to throw slippers at me just because i believe they are both humans? You must be STAUNCH HINDU. HINDUS ARE IN THE CATEGORY OF SECTARIANS!
Peace
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
BLUE . lol are you language expert or gabriel come to tecch you after 1432 years.
RED perfectly suited to you, coz i represent almost all the accepted transaltions where nobody claim what you are claiming by your so called intellegence.
BROWN , my side its always peace and God bless you. only allah is best and best, rest of the tom dick and harries like you and me do mistakes
BTW i m not a secterian and this piece of reminder you need it, you are doing cheating and lying about verses not me, becareful .
I am always careful unlike you sectarian, BLIND FOLLOWER
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:04:35 AM
So you believe Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities? Now you are going to throw slippers at me just because i believe they are both humans? You must be STAUNCH HINDU. HINDUS ARE IN THE CATEGORY OF SECTARIANS!
Peace
did i say they are divinities? thats what hindus claim, now you are changing your own statement first you said abraham and brahma are same now accroding to their doctrine they are not same, do you think there are bunch of stupids here, :rotfl:
red yeh obviously.
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:07:11 AM
I am always careful unlike you sectarian, BLIND FOLLOWER
yeh secterians are blind followers , but i m not one of them lol
whats about you who is not a blind follower but you know you are
cheating and
lying with verses, and claiming something without a proof, and when you bring your proof it was not on the level of acceptence becoz the other side of your proof is totally different by experts. and then you claim its your personal understaning, wao :bravo:
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
BLUE . lol are you language expert or gabriel come to tecch you after 1432 years.
Quran says use your intelligence, which obviously you do not have.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
RED perfectly suited to you, coz i represent almost all the accepted transaltions where nobody claim what you are claiming by your so called intellegence.
Even if they are wrong?
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
BROWN , my side its always peace and God bless you. only allah is best and best, rest of the tom dick and harries like you and me do mistakes
Off course, that goes without saying, thank you for reminding me!
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
BTW i m not a secterian and this piece of reminder you need it, you are doing cheating and lying about verses not me, becareful .
Am I? What about those who supported the malicious sectarion translators, abusing the correct rendering of the Quran, people like YOU, deviating mankind from the right course!
THOSE WHO SUPPORTED THE LIARS THEY ARE ALSO GUILTY OF LYING!
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:24:05 AM
Quran says use your intelligence, which obviously you do not have.
lol, my intelligence you already check. how do you now whats my iq level? or you are also guessing here on personal grounds ..
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:24:05 AM
Even if they are wrong?
yeh they are wrong and your one is correct you have a certification from God , on your certificate it is to certify that mr hizbullah interpret 63. 4 in correct manner , issued by allah, do u have a certificate like this,
on the contrary do u have a certification that all these translations are wrong,
both options are open select anyone of it and prove where is the certification or your
right and their
wrongQuote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:24:05 AM
Am I? What about those who supported the malicious sectarion translators, abusing the correct rendering of the Quran, people like YOU, deviating mankind from the right course! THOSE WHO SUPPORTED THE LIARS THEY ARE ALSO GUILTY OF LYING!
cant you feel funny here, every single words is saying you are lying and trying to distract the original meanings ,
ooh my goshhhhh where i stuck today :rotfl:
you need to get your haircut may be cold air will put some ideas on your bald head, i think evil hairs occupied ur senses lol just a advice ,lol
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:15:29 AM
did i say they are divinities? thats what hindus claim, now you are changing your own statement first you said abraham and brahma are same now accroding to their doctrine they are not same, do you think there are bunch of stupids here, :rotfl:
red yeh obviously.
I wrote they were same person not their doctrine...check below
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 01:31:51 AM
Abraham and Brahma were one and same person.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 04:14:16 AM
Abraham was a prophet so a human having normal life span like humans ,on the other hand brahma is believed to be first 'jiva' he is a 'devta' ,architect who builds all the universe with order from The universal god Parameshvara or the Eternal Para-brahma and also his life span is billions of human years.
Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities in Hinduism. If you told a fundamentalist Hindu that they were human, he will probably throw slippers at you.
i think somebody need pyscatrist. may God bless him.
according to hindus they got 33 million gods including monkey god hanuman,
Now everyone knows what kind of a person you are. Thank you so much for exposing yourself!
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:37:33 AM
Now everyone knows what kind of a person you are. Thank you so much for exposing yourself!
infact i exposed you, and your stupidity, sorry i mean your intelligence. and alhamdulliah i m successful in it. :yay:
dnt try to apply my science on me , prove it braham and abraham were same person .
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:44:34 AM
infact i exposed you, and your stupidity, sorry i mean your intelligence. and alhamdulliah i m successful in it. :yay:
dnt try to apply my science on me , prove it braham and abraham were same person .
The evidence are all in this thread, read it, but off course, feel free to accept or reject
Abraham was a prophet so a human having normal life span like humans ,on the other hand brahma is believed to be first 'jiva' he is a 'devta' ,architect who builds all the universe with order from The universal god Parameshvara or the Eternal Para-brahma and also his life span is billions of human years.
Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities in Hinduism. If you told a fundamentalist Hindu that they were human, he will probably throw slippers at you.
i think somebody need pyscatrist. may God bless him.
according to hindus they got 33 million gods including monkey god hanuman,
thats all what hindus claim and in light of their claim ibraham and braham cant be same,(these ideas are not mine)
i was thinking you are stupid but now i change my mind your are very weak in understanding who is adressing who?
i make it big
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:36:09 AM
lol, my intelligence you already check. how do you now whats my iq level? or you are also guessing here on personal grounds ..
yeh they are wrong and your one is correct you have a certification from God , on your certificate it is to certify that mr hizbullah interpret 63. 4 in correct manner , issued by allah, do u have a certificate like this,
on the contrary do u have a certification that all these translations are wrong,
both options are open select anyone of it and prove where is the certification or your right and their wrong
cant you feel funny here, every single words is saying you are lying and trying to distract the original meanings ,
ooh my goshhhhh where i stuck today :rotfl:
you need to get your haircut may be cold air will put some ideas on your bald head, i think evil hairs occupied ur senses lol just a advice ,lol
Relax man, you stressed up, you need a good head message
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:47:41 AM
The evidence are all in this thread, read it, but off course, feel free to accept or reject
the evidence is based on your personal understanding of interpretation , can you get it passed from authorities so that they write a certification of your
perosnal undersrtanding.
and ok atleast gather ten votes from this forum who are agree with your understanding, of 63.4
again i give you two options , see how generous i m lolxx but you are getiing fail again and again,
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:50:57 AM
Relax man, you stressed up, you need a good head message
oooh man,,, again you steal my words its not fair, lol
i m always relax becoz , stress is on losing side always,
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:48:54 AM
Abraham was a prophet so a human having normal life span like humans ,on the other hand brahma is believed to be first 'jiva' he is a 'devta' ,architect who builds all the universe with order from The universal god Parameshvara or the Eternal Para-brahma and also his life span is billions of human years.
Brahma and Saraswathi are divinities in Hinduism. If you told a fundamentalist Hindu that they were human, he will probably throw slippers at you.
i think somebody need pyscatrist. may God bless him.
according to hindus they got 33 million gods including monkey god hanuman,
thats all what hindus claim and in light of their claim ibraham and braham cant be same,(these ideas are not mine)
i was thinking you are stupid but now i change my mind your are very weak in understanding who is adressing who?
i make it big
Thats what you claimed
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:58:15 AM
Thats what you claimed
i didnt lol..
all that post was the views of hindus regarding their God brahma.
and i m alhamdullaih submittor to God alone who dnt beleive in 33 million gods
shall i send you my id or documents so that it will be a proof for you i m not hindu, see i m always ready to provide proofs
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
oooh man,,, again you steal my words its not fair, lol
Its English.....so you wanna claim everything, eh....ok its all yours!
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
i m always relax becoz , stress is on losing side always,
Are you sure, you dont look like it! Anyways, this thread is all yours...Peace
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 06:01:15 AM
i didnt lol..
all that post was the views of hindus regarding their God brahma.
and i m alhamdullaih submittor to God alone who dnt beleive in 33 million gods
shall i send you my id or documents so that it will be a proof for you i m not hindu, see i m always ready to provide proofs
No need, you have the right to your believe.... ;) ALL YOURS
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 06:04:31 AM
Its English.....so you wanna claim everything, eh....ok its all yours!
Are you sure, you dont look like it! Anyways, this thread is all yours...Peace
RED i was talking about head part thingie , lol not about english see you lose ur senses, get your hair cut
BLUE nothing is mine brother,
everthing belongs to GOD alone me you this thread winning losing , we are just players in a big game , and all the times games cannnot be successful the example of rashad khalifa is infront of you,
peace
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
BROWN , my side its always peace and God bless you. only allah is best and best, rest of the tom dick and harries like you and me do mistakes
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:07:11 AM
I am always careful unlike you sectarian, BLIND FOLLOWER
Quote from: Hizbullah on May 22, 2016, 05:24:05 AM
...use your intelligence, which obviously you do not have.
...people like YOU, deviating mankind from the right course!...
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2016, 05:44:34 AM
infact i exposed you, and your stupidity, sorry i mean your intelligence. and alhamdulliah i m successful in it. :yay:
dnt try to apply my science on me , prove it braham and abraham were same person .
Have you guys read: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0) ?
If yes, then read again, if not, I suggest you do so, carefully. This personal stuff needs to stay out. You have been warned.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 21, 2016, 02:05:18 PM
first tell me according to your understanind who muhammad is? where was he? or it was not a muhammad at all? forget about any history of muslims or christians , just anlyse it and i m sure you already research about it, so share ur understanding of muhammad with me, then we will proceed talk in a manner we both understand.
Hi,
The information I have about a certain Mohammed is like anyone else only from the ahadith.
- From my own research, the word "mohammed" in the quran is not a name.
- Even if it was a name then it still can not be proved that the Mohammed mentioned in the quran is also the receiver of the book.
- Even if it was a name then there is absolutly nothing in the quran that would hint that he lived in somewhere in the middle east 1400 years ago.
For me the traditional theory, thus a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in mecca who received the quran, is a likely as a woman named Sof?a who lived 3000 years ago in Cadiz who received the quran.
Quotenoah ark is also mention in quran , and history verify it, soddom and gomorrah, and lot of other things , are in perfec t harmony with quran , but we always doubt about the refferd person of book at that time he was present there so it must be something that raise questions regarding his personality. may be you are not getting what i try to say i make it simple,
I don't think history verifies Noah or Sodom.
Quotelet say today 2016 ad a messenger X comes up with live miracles and its sure its from God and tells us the stories of old including muhammad what he done where was he , how he wirte and collect quran, and after 1400 years, in 3400 ad we will ask who was x there is nothing mention about him in the book what he given us, we need to see wikipedia todays tenology that is recording the records of individual, can we rely on wikipedia we all know how its works,
mr x God mention four time in new quran and now we have nothing to prove who was mr x,
the present tense and past tense are in different sturucture, when quran was revelaing prophet was present, gabriel didnnot directly hand over this quran to humanity i think.
I am not sure if I understood what you are trying to say.
Quote from: Bender on May 27, 2016, 07:55:07 AM
For me the traditional theory, thus a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in mecca who received the quran, is a likely as a woman named Sof?a who lived 3000 years ago in Cadiz who received the quran.
thanx for you reply,
i dnt think so our discussion will go anywhere in light of your claims and research . what i have for you is a simple advise. give your research little bit more time.
sofia 3000 years ago , is a clear fiction by you,if sofia recieved the quran its meaning after revelation of quran jesus christ come and when jesus christ was there sofia already revealed quran.
muhammad 1400 years ago was not a fiction history is witness, and the work of the last prophet is alive by billions of followers,
marking of your example is 0 out of 10 very illogical , wrong, unworthy example. i was thinking if there is negetive marking system may b the example of this kind will get -10 lol
best of luck i did research as well i m satisfied in my research there was a muhammad and he did recieve quran,
i think we are agree to disagree,
peace
God bless you.
Edip-Layth (Quran: A Reformist Translation)
48:29 Muhammed, the messenger of God, and those who are with him, are severe against the ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. Their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the ingrates with them. God promises those among them who acknowledge and promote reforms forgiveness and a great reward.
The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
48:29 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek the blessings and approval of God. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
48:29 MUHAMMAD is God's Apostle; and those who are [truly] with him are firm and unyielding43 towards all deniers of the truth, [yet] full of mercy towards one another.44 Thou canst see them bowing down, pros?trating themselves [in prayer], seeking favour with God and [His] goodly acceptance: their marks are on their faces, traced by prostration.45 This is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel:46 [they are] like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and [in the end] stands firm upon its stem, delighting the sowers. [Thus will God cause the believers to grow in strength,] so that through them He might confound the deniers of the truth.47 [But] unto such of them as may [yet] attain to faith and do righteous deeds, God has promised forgiveness and a reward supreme.48
Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
Qualities of the Believers
48:29 Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.
Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
48:29 Muhammad is God?s Messenger. And those who are with him are stern towards the deniers, and compassionate among themselves. You can see them bowing, adoring (Him), as they seek God?s bounty and acceptance. Their signs (of belief) are on their faces, the effects of adoration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel. They are like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and then stands firm on its stem, delighting those who have sown it. As a result it enrages the deniers at them. And God promises forgiveness and an immense reward to those who attain belief and do acts of beneficence
who is this muhammad, a courier service i think that deleiver quran to everywhere. what this verse is talking about, and these are not the transaltions of any traditional muslims these are quran alone based translations,
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 27, 2016, 06:11:40 PM
thanx for you reply,
i dnt think so our discussion will go anywhere in light of your claims and research . what i have for you is a simple advise. give your research little bit more time.
sofia 3000 years ago , is a clear fiction by you,if sofia recieved the quran its meaning after revelation of quran jesus christ come and when jesus christ was there sofia already revealed quran.
muhammad 1400 years ago was not a fiction history is witness, and the work of the last prophet is alive by billions of followers,
marking of your example is 0 out of 10 very illogical , wrong, unworthy example. i was thinking if there is negetive marking system may b the example of this kind will get -10 lol
best of luck i did research as well i m satisfied in my research there was a muhammad and he did recieve quran,
i think we are agree to disagree,
peace
God bless you.
Hi,
RED: Yes think so.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 27, 2016, 06:29:11 PM
who is this muhammad, a courier service i think that deleiver quran to everywhere. what this verse is talking about, and these are not the transaltions of any traditional muslims these are quran alone based translations,
Like I said even if you take it as a name in that verse then you still did not prove that he is the receiver of the book we call the quran and also no proof of time and place.
Only with help of Bukhary & Co you can make these kind of claims.
Quote from: Bender on May 28, 2016, 02:10:19 PM
Like I said even if you take it as a name in that verse then you still did not prove that he is the receiver of the book we call the quran and also no proof of time and place.
Only with help of Bukhary & Co you can make these kind of claims.
same you cannot prove from quran muhammad is not the reciever of quran,
but history is witness , not only one person plantey of them ,
burden of proof is on your head,
having no proof of claims or burden of proof means case by default win by bukhari & co. simple daily law of courts. lolxx
have a good day.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 28, 2016, 10:56:22 PM
same you cannot prove from quran muhammad is not the reciever of quran,
Yes that is true, just like you and anyone else here can not prove that it was not Michael or Anna who was the receiver.
Quotebut history is witness , not only one person plantey of them ,
burden of proof is on your head,
having no proof of claims or burden of proof means case by default win by bukhari & co. simple daily law of courts. lolxx
have a good day.
RED: No it's not. It is you who is claiming that the receiver was a certain man named Mohammed and lived 1400 years ago somewhere in the middle east, I did not claim that.
I really don't get what i wrong with Muhmmad, the prophet, be it a name or an eithet or a distinction or whatever. the Qur'anmakes no secret of the name of prophets, and no ecret of things being revealed to htem and of hem beeing "pampered" by god. ?Why is there such an outrage the the receiver and trnasmitter of the Qur'an to the people should be ombody known and acknowledged by God just as Musa was or 'sa was or so many prophets as are named and acknowledged in the Qur'an. We are told to treat all prophets alike not to disdain Muhammad down under all the others.
This is something I just don't get. Do we get fewer points if we praise Muhammad (and by Muhammad I understand the transmitter of the Qur'an to the people) tahn if we praise other prophets, like Musa, Ibrahim, and darling 'Isa-Jesus? And by this I do not mean at all any disrespect for 'Isa, by no meansand quite the opposite, but simply point out that for some people it seems it is more distinguished and select to be in love with Jesus than to have any words for Muhammad that are not short of hostile. I mean you loose category if you praise Muhammad. ?What is this nonsense? You can praie all the prophets except Muhammad.
Of ocurse som say that Muhammad is not the reciver of the Qur'an, I don't give a damn which name the reciver had, but smebody did receive the Qur'an and somebody is aluded many times in the Qur'an as the transmitter of it, then let us say it is not Muhammad, somebody is, then who?
Salaam
Quote from: huruf on May 29, 2016, 06:35:37 AM
I really don't get what i wrong with Muhmmad, the prophet, be it a name or an eithet or a distinction or whatever. the Qur'anmakes no secret of the name of prophets, and no ecret of things being revealed to htem and of hem beeing "pampered" by god. ?Why is there such an outrage the the receiver and trnasmitter of the Qur'an to the people should be ombody known and acknowledged by God just as Musa was or 'sa was or so many prophets as are named and acknowledged in the Qur'an. We are told to treat all prophets alike not to disdain Muhammad down under all the others.
This is something I just don't get. Do we get fewer points if we praise Muhammad (and by Muhammad I understand the transmitter of the Qur'an to the people) tahn if we praise other prophets, like Musa, Ibrahim, and darling 'Isa-Jesus? And by this I do not mean at all any disrespect for 'Isa, by no meansand quite the opposite, but simply point out that for some people it seems it is more distinguished and select to be in love with Jesus than to have any words for Muhammad that are not short of hostile. I mean you loose category if you praise Muhammad. ?What is this nonsense? You can praie all the prophets except Muhammad.
What I do not get is why people get sensitive if Mohammed is the subject.
I did not say anything wrong about him, I only said that it can not be proved with only the quran that a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in the middle east is the receiver of the quran. If people insist that it is him, then that's totally ok with me but the fact stands that that understanding is purely based on Bukhary & Co, it can not be derived from the quran.
Mohammed (if he existed) is for a lot of people who believe in the quran more then other messengers, you can witness this in this forum a lot, and that is I think not really healthy.
QuoteOf ocurse som say that Muhammad is not the reciver of the Qur'an, I don't give a damn which name the reciver had, but smebody did receive the Qur'an and somebody is aluded many times in the Qur'an as the transmitter of it, then let us say it is not Muhammad, somebody is, then who?
Salaam
BLUE: I have no idea.
From my understanding the receiver of the quran is mohammed (the meaning of the word) but can be anybody and is in fact not important unless you want to study the origin of the quran.
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 04:36:57 AM
Yes that is true, just like you and anyone else here can not prove that it was not Michael or Anna who was the receiver.RED: No it's not. It is you who is claiming that the receiver was a certain man named Mohammed and lived 1400 years ago somewhere in the middle east, I did not claim that.
lol, you said its bukhari and company who claimed that, and then i handle their case becoz they are not alive, and in the light of historical evidences and historical records by multiple chains of multiple regions make them win the case,
on the other hand a person mr bender deny to accept the perosnalty of that perosn and moreover he dnt have any evidence so far not any witness soo far,, not any historical record ,,so far , not any logical record so far,, in light of his own persoanl idea, court by law given the decison in the favor of bukhari and company.
thats what it mean, lol
peace.
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 11:30:16 AM
BLUE: I have no idea.
and in the ending statement of mr bender he clearly say i have no idea, who recieved it, so case by default is illogical when there is no idea who recieved it ? how can be an idea its not muhammad ? moreover its the issue 1400 years old only history can verify it. and history already play their role,
questions and answers of mr bender contradict with eachother.
peace and have a good day.
as a good friend i want to share one verse with mr bender. hope so it will help, quran is very helpful for people always .
Edip-Layth (Quran: A Reformist Translation)
33:40 Muhammed was not the father of any man among you, but he was the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. God is fully aware of all things.
The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
33:40 Mohammed is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. And God is fully aware of all things.
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
33:40 [And know, O believers, that] Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men,but is God's Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets And God has indeed full knowledge of everything.
Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
33:40 Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is God?s Messenger and the closing seal of all Prophets. God is Knower of all things.
there are three main parts of this verse for believers , first is muhammad is not father of any men, second , he is the last prophet , third God is knower of all things,
third thing clear everything , lol
and God is telling us that muhmmad(praised one) is the last prophet, what else left moreover the interpretation is not by any bukhari and company group.
burden of proof is always on ...... you.
Please excuse me. Redundant post.
Be well
Amenue
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 11:30:16 AM
What I do not get is why people get sensitive if Mohammed is the subject.
I did not say anything wrong about him, I only said that it can not be proved with only the quran that a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in the middle east is the receiver of the quran. If people insist that it is him, then that's totally ok with me but the fact stands that that understanding is purely based on Bukhary & Co, it can not be derived from the quran.
Mohammed (if he existed) is for a lot of people who believe in the quran more then other messengers, you can witness this in this forum a lot, and that is I think not really healthy.
BLUE: I have no idea.
From my understanding the receiver of the quran is mohammed (the meaning of the word) but can be anybody and is in fact not important unless you want to study the origin of the quran.
You re evading the issue and on top of it you say that people get ensitive on Muhammad. I have already said, I do not care which name it is, or whether it is a name or an epithet or whatever, what I say is again, there is obviously in the Qur'an a person who is addressed as the messenger sent y God to transmit th Qur'an. And I have said that it would be really intriguing why God mentions so many messengers and talks about the scriptures or missions given to them, and when we come to Muhammad or whatever name to cknowledge to him the same as to other prophets, neither more nor less.
It is not being sensitive, it is being intrigued by and attituted that seems inconsistent. o His name is not Mhyammed, why would God name very other Prophet and not the one He is talking about in so much of Qur'an, We have Musa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Maryam, 3ia, et etc. etc. o either the one who got revealed the Qur'an is not named either it is called Muhammad or somethin gelse we have missed in te Qur'an. Either there is an answer to that which is logical and consistent or there is not. I guess what you are saying is that there is ot an answer to that.
I do get that the Qur'an is revealed to everybdy who cares to receive it, but so has been the case with every previous or later scripture, that is o answer nor an explantion for making the reception of the Qur'an, as narrated in the Qur'an itself an exception in the way that God has dealt with the Prophets. Was Muhmmad to be an outcast amonst the Prophets, without name nor recognition of his mission?
Nobody, well not I, am aking to crown Myhammad for president or anything la that that you call ensitive, I am just at a loss, always have been at a loss as to why he should be singled out for divesting him of the usual things which are vested on other prophets, like a name, an existence and an aknowledgement of his mission.
Salaam
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 29, 2016, 03:01:24 PM
lol, you said its bukhari and company who claimed that, and then i handle their case becoz they are not alive, and in the light of historical evidences and historical records by multiple chains of multiple regions make them win the case,
Yes they win I loose.
But in the end you and all of your resources still have no quranic proof, still hearsay.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 29, 2016, 03:06:21 PM
on the other hand a person mr bender deny to accept the perosnalty of that perosn and moreover he dnt have any evidence so far not any witness soo far,, not any historical record ,,so far , not any logical record so far,, in light of his own persoanl idea, court by law given the decison in the favor of bukhari and company.
thats what it mean, lol
and in the ending statement of mr bender he clearly say i have no idea, who recieved it, so case by default is illogical when there is no idea who recieved it ? how can be an idea its not muhammad ? moreover its the issue 1400 years old only history can verify it. and history already play their role,
questions and answers of mr bender contradict with eachother.
peace and have a good day.
Me having no idea does not make your assumption true.
And what history are you talking about?
May I ask why you switched to 3rd person?
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 29, 2016, 03:18:10 PM
as a good friend i want to share one verse with mr bender. hope so it will help, quran is very helpful for people always .
Edip-Layth (Quran: A Reformist Translation)
33:40 Muhammed was not the father of any man among you, but he was the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. God is fully aware of all things.
The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
33:40 Mohammed is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. And God is fully aware of all things.
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
33:40 [And know, O believers, that] Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men,but is God's Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets And God has indeed full knowledge of everything.
Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
33:40 Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is God?s Messenger and the closing seal of all Prophets. God is Knower of all things.
there are three main parts of this verse for believers , first is muhammad is not father of any men, second , he is the last prophet , third God is knower of all things,
third thing clear everything , lol
and God is telling us that muhmmad(praised one) is the last prophet, what else left moreover the interpretation is not by any bukhari and company group.
burden of proof is always on ...... you.
Nice verse but can you highlight for me the part where it says that Mohammed is the receiver of the book we call the quran?
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 03:51:08 PM
Nice verse but can you highlight for me the part where it says that Mohammed is the receiver of the book we call the quran?
ok so do you want me to teach you 2+2 = 4
ok then last prophet = last revelaed book( quran)
second last = second last revealed book(bible)
or do you also have anyother book apart from quran ,
let me guess what will b your next question,
show me a verse from quran, 2+2= 4
hence you did not show me a verse this math equation is wrong,,,, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 03:51:08 PM
Yes they win I loose.
yeh thats what happen when you claim something without proof , you just waste your court fee( i mean time)
Quote from: huruf on May 29, 2016, 03:29:55 PM
You re evading the issue and on top of it you say that people get ensitive on Muhammad. I have already said, I do not care which name it is, or whether it is a name or an epithet or whatever,
I did not say Huruf gets sensitive but people, I know that it is for you not a sensitive subject.
QuoteIt is not being sensitive, it is being intrigued by and attituted that seems inconsistent. o His name is not Mhyammed, why would God name very other Prophet and not the one He is talking about in so much of Qur'an, We have Musa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Maryam, 3ia, et etc. etc. o either the one who got revealed the Qur'an is not named either it is called Muhammad or somethin gelse we have missed in te Qur'an. Either there is an answer to that which is logical and consistent or there is not. I guess what you are saying is that there is ot an answer to that.
RED: yes that is all what I am saying, from the quran alone there is no answer to this question, at least I did not find any and I never read any from someone else.
It's actually very simple those who insist that it was Mohammed and that it can be proved from the quran that it was him, then bring on the verses.
QuoteI do get that the Qur'an is revealed to everybdy who cares to receive it, but so has been the case with every previous or later scripture, that is o answer nor an explantion for making the reception of the Qur'an, as narrated in the Qur'an itself an exception in the way that God has dealt with the Prophets. Was Muhmmad to be an outcast amonst the Prophets, without name nor recognition of his mission?
Nobody, well not I, am aking to crown Myhammad for president or anything la that that you call ensitive, I am just at a loss, always have been at a loss as to why he should be singled out for divesting him of the usual things which are vested on other prophets, like a name, an existence and an aknowledgement of his mission.
Salaam
Quotewhat I say is again, there is obviously in the Qur'an a person who is addressed as the messenger sent y God to transmit th Qur'an. And I have said that it would be really intriguing why God mentions so many messengers and talks about the scriptures or missions given to them, and when we come to Muhammad or whatever name to cknowledge to him the same as to other prophets, neither more nor less.
There are a lot of good people (including messengers) in the quran without a name.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 29, 2016, 03:57:08 PM
ok so do you want me to teach you 2+2 = 4
ok then last prophet = last revelaed book( quran)
second last = second last revealed book(bible)
or do you also have anyother book apart from quran ,
let me guess what will b your next question,
show me a verse from quran, 2+2= 4
hence you did not show me a verse this math equation is wrong,,,, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I also used to do these kind of maths.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 29, 2016, 04:00:12 PM
yeh thats what happen when you claim something without proof , you just waste your court fee( i mean time)
You are the one who is claiming something. I said I do NOT know. So if you have something better than the math above then please enlighten me if not then I guess you just know as much as I do.
Quote from: imrankhawaja on May 29, 2016, 03:57:08 PM
ok so do you want me to teach you 2+2 = 4
ok then last prophet = last revelaed book( quran)
second last = second last revealed book(bible)
or do you also have anyother book apart from quran ,
let me guess what will b your next question,
show me a verse from quran, 2+2= 4
hence you did not show me a verse this math equation is wrong,,,, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Salaamun Bender,
Don't you have wall around where you are sitting, go hit your head instead :brickwall:
Quote from: Bender on May 27, 2016, 07:55:07 AM
For me the traditional theory, thus a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in mecca who received the quran, is a likely as a woman named Sof?a who lived 3000 years ago in Cadiz who received the quran.
Surprising considering:
http://www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf
Quote from: Wakas on May 29, 2016, 04:16:37 PM
Surprising considering:
http://www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf
Lot of harsh views there.
Quote from: mmkhan on May 29, 2016, 04:16:03 PM
Salaamun Bender,
Don't you have wall around where you are sitting, go hit your head instead :brickwall:
good advise actually. but quote him not me. i dnt want to get myself blame ,lol
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 04:13:13 PM
I also used to do these kind of maths.
excellent atleast you beleive in math.
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2016, 04:03:01 PM
There are a lot of good people (including messengers) in the quran without a name.
I know, amonst them the wives of some of the prophets that have a name. However there is plenty of mention with name of people who received scriptures and also of people who did not receive scriptures. Qur'an is upposed to be the contrasting scripture to check the authenticity fo othr scriptures, at least we all use it as such or purport to, so there are very legitimte questions as to why the prophet of the Qur'an should be singled out to be left without a name to name him. Because there i a prohet who received and trnasmitted the Qur'n to people, or is that also questionned? Was the Qur'an handed down to a cooperative? r depoited nonymously somewhere.
I know that we all receive the Qur'an individually in our fitr, the sign in the horizon and within ourselves. No need to go into tht we are all agreed on it. But there is this scripture which we all use, so how did it get to us?
Salaam
Quote from: huruf on May 30, 2016, 02:46:11 AM
But there is this scripture which we all use, so how did it get to us?
Salaam
sister huruf, sometimes math works, lets play math, equation.
left hand side = right hand side. equation proved.
first solve the left hand side,
there is a scripture thats how we get it,answer lies in the scripture, interestingly in the verse 19 of chapter 6.
6:19 Say (O Messenger), "What could be the greatest witness?? Say, ?God is Witness between me and you. This Qur?an has been revealed to me so that I may warn you as well as whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that there are other deities besides God?? Say, ?I bear no such witness.? Say, ?He is the One God. I disown what you associate with Him.?5:48 (O Messenger) We have sent to you this Divine scripture, setting forth the truth. It confirms the remaining truth in the earlier scriptures since it is a Watcher over them. So, judge between them by what God has revealed, and do not follow their desires diverging from the truth that has come to you.according to left hand side this scripture is started from one person who was definately the last prophet /reciver of scripture and then it carry on to the generations including
us .
right hand side who is the last prophet? and how we know he is the last prophet, and how we know scripture (quran) is the last scripture? can we have any hints from quran regarding this? very simple,
here you go.
3:144 And Mohammed is but a messenger, like many messengers who have passed before him. If he dies or is killed will you turn back on your heels? And whoever turns back on his heels, he will not harm God in the least. And God will recompense the thankful.47:2 And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is God?s Messenger and the closing seal of all Prophets. God is Knower of all things.what we see here.from above three verses. muhammad was the last prophet who recieved last scripture.and God is telling us to beleive what sent down to muhammad.
now the equation is like this
LHS=RHS . according to quran
LHS=RHS accoridng to early history by muslims,
LHS=RHS according to early non muslim histories as well.
equation proved.
and for the people who dnt beleive i have a verse after the first verse which i posted. have a look into it.
6:20 Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their children. Those who lost their souls, they do not believe.
6:21 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.
this verse is telling us God know and God is telling us there will be some people who will not gona beleive and its happening from last 1400 years. lol so not be be worried much. it will happen untill judgement day.
peace and God bless you all
Quote from: mmkhan on May 29, 2016, 04:16:03 PM
Salaamun Bender,
Don't you have wall around where you are sitting, go hit your head instead :brickwall:
Not any more, I have demolished them all already ;)
Quote from: Wakas on May 29, 2016, 04:16:37 PM
Surprising considering:
http://www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf
Thank you! Have been reading it since yesterday.
I can not verify the sources and the dates but still very interesting.
What I find interesting is that it reminds me of Keyser Soze, no one of the sources met him, at best they only know/met someone who told them about him and or his deeds (which are according to those sources not really positive).
btw I am not saying that nothing happened 1400 years ago, because without history books and archaeology we can witness today that something world changing happened somewhere in the middle east some time ago.
But I am interested in the origin, the first copy and the first one(s) who got the first copy and of course the HOW. And the history books and narratations about these questions are very questionable for a lot of reasons.
Quote from: Comrox on May 29, 2016, 05:59:24 PM
Lot of harsh views there.
So what do you think? Do you think the man they ascribe fits the messenger of the quran?
Quote from: huruf on May 30, 2016, 02:46:11 AM
I know, amonst them the wives of some of the prophets that have a name. However there is plenty of mention with name of people who received scriptures and also of people who did not receive scriptures. Qur'an is upposed to be the contrasting scripture to check the authenticity fo othr scriptures, at least we all use it as such or purport to, so there are very legitimte questions as to why the prophet of the Qur'an should be singled out to be left without a name to name him. Because there i a prohet who received and trnasmitted the Qur'n to people, or is that also questionned? Was the Qur'an handed down to a cooperative? r depoited nonymously somewhere.
I know that we all receive the Qur'an individually in our fitr, the sign in the horizon and within ourselves. No need to go into tht we are all agreed on it. But there is this scripture which we all use, so how did it get to us?
Salaam
RED: I do not agree with this. I think only Musa got maybe something like a "scripture", depends on how we want to understand the red word (7:145)
وَكَتَبْنَا لَهُ فِي الْأَلْوَاحِBLUE: I wish I knew, I have no idea.
Of course I have my own speculations, but they are just speculations like any other speculation.
Quote from: Bender on May 30, 2016, 08:53:38 PM
So what do you think? Do you think the man they ascribe fits the messenger of the quran?
Salam Bender,
Quran 16:103
And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches him. The tongue of the one who deviates on him is foreign, and this is [in] clear Arabic language.My question is,
1. Green - Who was the HUMAN BEING [A MORTAL] who teaches?
2. Red - Who was the "him" that was taught?
:peace: