Not often I use exclamation marks, but with the recent release of classified documents by Wikileaks I cant help myself!
An example: The King of Saudi Arabia urging the US to attack Iran
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cable-leak-diplomacy-crisis
I wonder what else will be discovered.
You beat me to it was going to post this topic. There's quite a few things leaked and it doesn't shock me at all...
The following site has an interactive guide where you can select which country you want to read about in the leaks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-wikileaks (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-wikileaks)
Some turbulent times to come ahead now.........be prepared.
PEACE
I'm not sure about this. Just like the last set of leaks, there's a suspicion that these were deliberate. The Iraq leaks portrayed Iran providing weapons and fighters and causing sectarian violence in Iraq. The result was condemnation of Iran despite the war being fought by America. This set of leaks again put Iran at the center. Now the story is that "even the Muslims want war against the Nazi Iran regime". Showing that Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries want America to invade Iran allows America to step up their rhetoric with a bit more freedom. They can sell the war as the whole world, including "moderate" Muslim states, vs Iran.
Do they mention invasion or an attack?
oh.. a third "be careful" post in one single day.
don't just believe because you want to..
Quote from: Wakas on November 29, 2010, 06:58:54 PM
Do they mention invasion or an attack?
Attack, as far as I can tell. I was referring to any future invasion of Iran, where the US can make it look like the Muslim world is also against Iran. Acording to the Guardian, Israel feels it is vindicated by what the leaks reveal about Iran: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-claims-psychological-warfare-ahmadinejad.
See what I mean? Leaks that show the two-faced, dishonest governance of the US is turning into another Iran bashing exercise, similar to the last one.
Personally, I dont think its US propaganda, because it embarrasses them in many other situations. One of the best ones was Hilary Clinton telling US diplomats at the UN to spy on others. That's pretty bad.
I did find it interesting some gulf states want Iran nuclear facilities to be attacked though. I can only assume they think if Iran gets nukes, it will make Iran stronger and they may threaten their own countries, but I highly doubt that, because if Iran attacked/invaded any other country it would guarantee their own destruction. I suspect Iran only wants to get nukes so it doesn't get attacked or invaded itself, no aggressive reason. AFAIK Iran has never attacked anyone.
I dunno, I'm just really skeptical about this.
Quote from: san on November 29, 2010, 08:49:08 PM
oh.. a third "be careful" post in one single day.
don't just believe because you want to..
What you think san?
@Mushu, i don't know much about the details.. but what i'm thinking about is the ratio between USA's "disadvantages" and the recurring "vs. Iran" theme. The only clue will be, how much time it will take to "cure" the "disadvantages" or what they say "diplomacy crisis" (that is, USA vs UK, Italy etc) and what remains afterward.
Wikileaks is now kind of a popular media :| and by popular i mean it's sensational! (in its own way that is)
Quote from: san on November 30, 2010, 09:17:42 AM
@Mushu, i don't know much about the details.. but what i'm thinking about is the ratio between USA's "disadvantages" and the recurring "vs. Iran" theme. The only clue will be, how much time it will take to "cure" the "disadvantages" or what they say "diplomacy crisis" (that is, USA vs UK, Italy etc) and what remains afterward.
Wikileaks is now kind of a popular media :| and by popular i mean it's sensational! (in its own way that is)
I agree about the ratio point. But I doubt the ratio will be dictated by the facts i.e. what the leaks actually contain, rather it will be how well the spin is applied. I have no doubt the Iran theme will prevail.
i agree with brother Wakas. I take these leaks at face value for a number of reasons. They fit perfectly well into my world view about how the U.S. is run and what their interests actually are. It should be noted though that the real dirt would be classified "top secret" and isn't in this leak which is mainly unclassified cables and a minority labeled "secret".
Noam Chomsky: WikiLeaks Cables Reveal "Profound Hatred for Democracy on the Part of Our Political Leadership"
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/30/noam_chomsky_wikileaks_cables_reveal_profound
Re: Wikileaks- In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble.- Ron Paul (https://twitter.com/repronpaul/status/10716266021003264)
Quote from: Jack on December 03, 2010, 08:16:22 PM
Re: Wikileaks- In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble.- Ron Paul (https://twitter.com/repronpaul/status/10716266021003264)
Gotta love Ron Paul.
Julian Assange: "The Cable Gate archive has been spread, along with significant material from the US and other countries to over 100,000 people in encrypted form. If something happens to us, the key parts will be released automatically."
http://jonslattery.blogspot.com/2010/12/assange-if-something-happens-to-us-key.html
As time passes I am totally convinced that the US government is in full control of the leaks. US & Israel have come out of it really well. Hilary could hardly contain her delight when talking about Iran.
With other stuff they are just testing the waters on new policies, checking out the public reaction.
They are also using it to embarrass other political figures by showing them that they can leak any view about them, but make it seem genuine by putting it out through wikileaks.
I'd be watching the news that?s not getting press while all eyes are on wikileaks ... it's a smoke screen. These leaks are just (biased) civil servants banter i.e. complete bullshit.
Here's blog excerpt that is rapidally disappearing from the web. Even googles not caching it. If you can find the full article please post it here.
Quote
There is a small but growing body of opinion that Wikileaks, far from being anathema to the US government, is actually beneficial and that Julian Assange may be an agent of the US, whether he knows it or not. Consider: The US government is making a huge hullaballoo about finding Assange, dark rumblings about assassinating him from various nutjob American political noisemakers etc. But why? What in these leaks is truely damaging to the United States? The cables are occasionally mildly embarassing but reveal no dark and terrible secrets, just opinion, tittle-tattle and things that anyone with a brain pretty much knew anyway ? Russia is a gangster state, Berlusconi is a silly little crook, British politicians are fawning and subservient to the US. Far from being besmirched, the US comes out of this looking rather good and principled. So what?s going on here? 1) The US seemingly has its dirty laundry exposed to the world? and it?s not so bad. See? They?re not the boogeyman after all! 2) In the mass of signal noise and bullshit there are some ideas released to the world so we can get used to them and let them grow in our minds. Such as ?Iran is dangerous. Even the Arabs hate and fear Iran. Bomb Iran before it?s too late?. 3) This is only ?secret? and ?no foreigners? stuff being released. There are no Top Secret files. And do you seriously imagine that the really heinous stuff is recorded in any shape or form whatsoever? 4) Perhaps most importantly, it is a virtual 9/11 which will provide the excuse for the US authorities to clamp down and exert control over the internet. Under cover of ?national security? thay can do pretty much anything. It?s well know that the US government has long been furious that the web is out of their control, those who seek ?fill spectrum dominance?. It doesn?t make sense. Was it Cicero who said that if a situation seems inexplicable just ask one question ? Qui bono ? Who benefits? And it seems the US and Israel benefit
Quote from: Wakas on November 28, 2010, 02:23:17 PM
An example: The King of Saudi Arabia urging the US to attack Iran
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cable-leak-diplomacy-crisis
It's a common well known Facts that the Sunnis hates the Shiites and Saudi Arabia Kingdom supports and urges any country (Israel or US) to attack Iran.
However 'common blinded people' of the middle east and arab countries always refuses / reject the reality of their own kingdom / government.
Salam / Peace
Quote from: burhan on December 06, 2010, 04:33:46 PM
As time passes I am totally convinced that the US government is in full control of the leaks. US & Israel have come out of it really well. Hilary could hardly contain her delight when talking about Iran.
Burhan, no they are not...
Peace
But, has anything particularly shocking to the intelligence community come out? They would have know about the UN thing.
Roshan
US company with US/Afghan contract pimped little boys to stoned Afghan cops. US Diplomats covered it up. [That would be child-slave trafficking my friends]
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DynCorp&diff=400332734&oldid=400331537
US 'lobbied Russia on behalf of Visa and MasterCard'
US diplomats intervened to try to amend draft law so that it would not 'disadvantage' US credit card firms, cable says
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-us-russia-visa-mastercard
Quote from: burhan on December 06, 2010, 04:33:46 PM
As time passes I am totally convinced that the US government is in full control of the leaks. US & Israel have come out of it really well. Hilary could hardly contain her delight when talking about Iran.
With other stuff they are just testing the waters on new policies, checking out the public reaction.
They are also using it to embarrass other political figures by showing them that they can leak any view about them, but make it seem genuine by putting it out through wikileaks.
I'd be watching the news that?s not getting press while all eyes are on wikileaks ... it's a smoke screen. These leaks are just (biased) civil servants banter i.e. complete bullshit.
Here's blog excerpt that is rapidally disappearing from the web. Even googles not caching it. If you can find the full article please post it here.
Salam,
I totaly agree, any junior spy would use encrypted message for top secret communication!!!! Encrypting all these messages is so easy and almost impossible to decrypt!
Cheese
I am sorry but these conspiracies are laughable. Wikileaks is only helping to prove what we suspected all along: The US can do what it wants, where it wants, how it wants to do it. Rulers of the free world. And virtually every nation will bend over backwards to accommodate them.
Also, what do we expect Hillary to say? She's made to look like the biggest idiot out there. The same idiot who not too long ago said how governments should be transparent to its people. Grade A hypocrite.
Answer me this: why is the US working so hard to censor this? To make sure they have no support? Luckily the Swedes refuse to budge in banning the host site.
They don't want the truth to be known. Because the truth is very damning to a segment of the population who actually feels they can trust the government. Remember Manning who actually leaked the cables in the first place? Yeah he's gonna spend his life in prison for this: "Bradley Manning, the United States soldier who stole and released around 260,000 classified cables to Wikileaks, is facing up to 52 years in prison."
QuoteEvery one of us owes a debt to Julian Assange. Thanks to him, we now know that our governments are pursuing policies that place you and your family in considerably greater danger. It's only because of his leaks that we know the US government has secretly launched war on yet another Muslim country, sanctioned torture, kidnapped innocent people from the streets of free countries and intimidated the police into hushing it up, and covered up the killing of 15,000 civilians -- five times the number killed on 9/11. Each one of these acts has increased the number of jihadis. We can only change these policies if we know about them -- and Assange has given us the black-and-white proof.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/julian-assange-has-made-u_b_793504.html
Quote from: Jack on December 08, 2010, 01:28:01 PM
I am sorry but these conspiracies are laughable. Wikileaks is only helping to prove what we suspected all along: The US can do what it wants, where it wants, how it wants to do it. Rulers of the free world. And virtually every nation will bend over backwards to accommodate them.
Also, what do we expect Hillary to say? She's made to look like the biggest idiot out there. The same idiot who not too long ago said how governments should be transparent to its people. Grade A hypocrite.
Answer me this: why is the US working so hard to censor this? To make sure they have no support? Luckily the Swedes refuse to budge in banning the host site.
They don't want the truth to be known. Because the truth is very damning to a segment of the population who actually feels they can trust the government. Remember Manning who actually leaked the cables in the first place? Yeah he's gonna spend his life in prison for this: "Bradley Manning, the United States soldier who stole and released around 260,000 classified cables to Wikileaks, is facing up to 52 years in prison."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/julian-assange-has-made-u_b_793504.html
When I'll see the US suited for their crimes in their own court then I will agree with you and say YES their secret has been revealed and caused them to pay for their crimes.
Peace
I am afraid that's just living in a fantasy world. No offense bro.
Julian Assange should be awarded Nobel peace prize, suggests Russia
Russia has suggested that Julian Assange should be awarded the Nobel peace prize, in an unexpected show of support from Moscow for the jailed WikiLeaks founder.
In what appears to be a calculated dig at the US, the Kremlin urged non-governmental organisations to think seriously about "nominating Assange as a Nobel Prize laureate".
"Public and non-governmental organisations should think of how to help him," the source from inside president Dmitry Medvedev's office told Russian news agencies. Speaking in Brussels, where Medvedev was attending a Russia-EU summit yesterday , the source went on: "Maybe, nominate him as a Nobel Prize laureate."
Russia's reflexively suspicious leadership appears to have come round to WikiLeaks, having decided that the ongoing torrent of disclosures are ultimately far more damaging and disastrous to America's long-term geopolitical interests than they are to Russia's.
The Kremlin's initial reaction to stories dubbing Russia a corrupt "mafia state" and kleptocracy was, predictably, negative. Last week Medvedev's spokesman dubbed the revelations "not worthy of comment" while Putin raged that a US diplomatic cable comparing him to Batman and Medvedev to Robin was "arrogant" and "unethical". State TV ignored the claims.
Subsequent disclosures, however, that Nato had secretly prepared a plan in case Russia invaded its Baltic neighbours have left the Kremlin smarting. Today Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said Nato had to explain why it privately considered Russia an enemy while publicly describing it warmly as a "strategic partner" and ally.
Nato should make clear its position on WikiLeaks cables published by the Guardian alleging that the alliance had devised plans to defend Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia against Russia, Lavrov said.
"With one hand, Nato seeks agreement with us on joint partnership, and with the other, it makes a decision that it needs to defend. So when is Nato more sincere?" Lavrov asked today. "We have asked these questions and are expecting answers to them. We think we are entitled to that."
Lavrov said his attitude towards the leaked US state department cables was "philosophical". "It is interesting to read, including what ambassadors write to provide a stream of information to their capitals," he admitted.
Dmitry Rogozin, Russia's hardline ultra-nationalist ambassador to Nato, also today voiced his support for the embattled Assange. He tweeted that Assange's arrest and incarceration on Monday at the City of Westminster magistrates' court demonstrated that there was "no media freedom" in the west. Assange's "fate" amounted to "political persecution" and a lack of human rights, the ambassador said.
In London, meanwhile, Russia's charg? d'affaires and acting ambassador in the UK, Alexander Sternik, said relations with Britain had improved since the coalition came to power. He complained, however, about the hostile reaction in the British media after Fifa's executive committee voted that Russia ? and not England ? should host the 2018 World Cup.
In a briefing to journalists this morning, Sternik said: "While the English bid was technically a strong one, the Russian bid was in line with the well-known Fifa philosophy of opening new frontiers for world football. The vote result was therefore quite logical, and while the disappointment of many in England is understandable, the media outrage was a step too far. It's not cricket, as the English say."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/09/julian-assange-nobel-peace-prize
Quote from: Jack on December 04, 2010, 01:06:48 AM
Julian Assange: "The Cable Gate archive has been spread, along with significant material from the US and other countries to over 100,000 people in encrypted form. If something happens to us, the key parts will be released automatically."
http://jonslattery.blogspot.com/2010/12/assange-if-something-happens-to-us-key.html
Haha nice work Assange. That sounds like a pretty good safeguard.
:peace:
Regarding conspiracy can I just say that something worries me about conspiracy theories and Muslims. Since I reverted I hear a lot of Muslims defending Muslims & Muslims countries in situations where in my opinion they shouldn't be defended. There seems to be a feeling of having to and I don't know whether that is because so many of us feel attacked or if that is part of the Muslim way for other reasons. But coming from another culture I thought it was very strange and I was ill at ease with it.
On a personal note I was told the other day (because I was disagreeing about something...again :P) that I should contact the Saudi scholars for advice because ''they know their Islam''. I asked them (the person, not the scholars lol) about women's rights - driving, dress, work, legal inequalities and they didn't know (or believe) there were any inequalities in those areas. Saudi Arabia is not an area of expertise for me, however I found what proof I could and presented it. Then they made excuses as to why things were like that in SA and it was all along the lines of how it benefits women. So for me it felt like another case of a Muslim who, even when confronted with some contrary truth, finds it hard to just admit that Muslims aren't always right. Muslim countries sometimes have big problems.
Short version ( :laugh:): I am critical of many conspiracy theories.
@ afridi220 - Interesting news. I hadn't seen that although I've been following the wikileaks & Julian Assange dramas as much as I can lately.
Muslims and conspiracy theories go hand in hand! But maybe there is more to it than meets the eye, perhaps this seemingly default position is ingrained so deeply because it stems from the oldest and biggest conspiracy of them all: Hadith based Islam ;)
###
Anyone remember the film "V for Vendetta"?
Fiction:
http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/article/690/690251/v-for-vendetta-20060221085724795.jpg
Non-fiction:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11977406
:)
I saw a statistical analysis done by some researchers that said that wikileaks is undoubtedly an intelligence operation, they analyzed the fact that with every document dump done by wikileaks there were over 250000 or so leaked cables, they then analyzed the amount of time it took the major news orgs to review and report on them, it was statistically impossible for them to read threw each one and then only report on the ones that made america and israels foreign policy objectives seam rational, it was like hitting three whole in ones in a row in golf they said, impossible and prrof its all been preplanned i think.
Link to this analysis?
AFAIK 251 287 cables were leaked, but not 251 287 were released. See: http://213.251.145.96/cablegate.html
QuoteCurrently released so far... 1344 / 251,287
Quote from: Wakas on December 12, 2010, 10:21:48 AM
Muslims and conspiracy theories go hand in hand! But maybe there is more to it than meets the eye, perhaps this seemingly default position is ingrained so deeply because it stems from the oldest and biggest conspiracy of them all: Hadith based Islam ;)
###
Anyone remember the film "V for Vendetta"?
Fiction:
http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/article/690/690251/v-for-vendetta-20060221085724795.jpg
Non-fiction:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11977406
:)
Salaam Wakas - excellent point. You are right :) Reading that was a good way to start my morning too...with a smile.
I don't know that film, but :bravo: for the Spanish. I am very concerned about this whole thing and I would probably protest if I could. From what I've read the sexual assault charges are not what many people think they are.
"Assange?s attorney, Mark Stephens has said: ?Both the prosecutor and the defence agree that it was an incident of consensual sex where the condom broke. They are saying that amounts to rape, we are saying it doesn?t.? (from:http://www.thelocal.se/30310/20101119/)
So any moral arguments aside, if that is the case, in what way is this not being used to try and destroy his reputation? I keep reading his name associated with the word ''rape'' but if the above is true it's not rape in the sense that most people would think. It's a great opportunity for those who want to sling mud and they are taking it from what I can see.
Apparently Sweden has the strictest rape and sexual abuse laws in the Western World, and he could be prosecuted using a technicality.
A part of me hopes there is a mass demo in London when Assange's extradition hearing is heard.
Quote from: Wakas on December 12, 2010, 08:44:28 PM
Apparently Sweden has the strictest rape and sexual abuse laws in the Western World, and he could be prosecuted using a technicality.
A part of me hopes there is a mass demo in London when Assange's extradition hearing is heard.
Yes, Wakas, that's what I've heard/read about the situation in Sweden too. The problem is that someone like him is really, really vulnerable to prosecution on ''technicalities"'. Which is why I think we all need to be aware of that and make sure that he is given a fair hearing. If he's done something wrong then by all means let the legal system do it's work..but this hardly seems like a normal case.
I would be very surprised if there is not a mass demo in London. Are you in the UK?
How funny! No need to answer that question as I just looked at the ''Hi from england'' thread and saw you're from Scotland. OT - I have a friend there and I'm enjoying all her snow pics lately. We have high humidity here right now...
Yes, snow is nice............................... from afar.
:P
Quote from: Wakas on December 12, 2010, 09:15:41 PM
Yes, snow is nice............................... from afar.
:P
:laugh: yeah, same with our summers...the theory is wonderful.
Quote from: Wakas on December 12, 2010, 09:15:41 PM
Yes, snow is nice............................... from afar.
:P
Snow? What snow? Been seein no snow for years
Quote from: san on December 13, 2010, 05:35:06 AM
Snow? What snow? Been seein no snow for years
Oh really? Where are you San?
As an Aussie I was really happy to see this article this morning:
Party revolt growing over Prime Minister Julia Gillard's WikiLeaks stance
http://www.news.com.au/features/wikileaks/party-revolt-at-pms-wiki-stance/story-fn79cf6x-1225970594165
(not that I want to see instability in our government...but I was really unhappy with what she had been saying about the issue previously)
Wikileaks: The Movie
Watch here:
http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/2192/27/
I thought this documentary was excellent. It was interesting to see the work that went into creating wikileaks. I recommend it.
Quote from: Wakas on December 14, 2010, 07:17:46 AM
Wikileaks: The Movie
Watch here:
http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/2192/27/
I thought this documentary was excellent. It was interesting to see the work that went into creating wikileaks. I recommend it.
Yes, very interesting. I've just watched half of it and will finish the rest later today. I might repost the link for my friends to watch too. You know I saw the "Collateral Murder'' footage quite late but once I did it was what really made me sit up and take notice. Every time I catch a little of that footage I have that awful feeling of desperation...wanting to stop what happens in it but being able to do nothing. I bet many people felt that way when they watched. It's pretty damning.
Quote from: Wakas on December 12, 2010, 10:21:48 AM
Muslims and conspiracy theories go hand in hand! But maybe there is more to it than meets the eye, perhaps this seemingly default position is ingrained so deeply because it stems from the oldest and biggest conspiracy of them all: Hadith based Islam ;)
Lets not confuse skepticism with conspiracy theory, instead look at who benefitted from cablegate. America.
Don't get me wrong ... the world is a better place with wikileaks.
Anway lets make a list of leaks wishlist. I have two
1. Meeting minutes on devolution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8405907.stm
2. Meeting minutes on Iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7907991.stm
Great interview on MSNBC. Must see. Scroll down for video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/22/julian-assange-msnbc-fox_n_800471.html
Watch for his definition of terrorism. He also clears the air on Bradley manning.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nikolas-kozloff/wikileaks-from-south-atla_b_804296.html?ref=fb&src=sp
:peace:
Peace, all! I'm more inclined to the theory that it is an intelligence operation. Specifically Israel's.
"A leak on this scale is only a leak if it is a random data dump. If items were purposely included or excluded based on their intended effect, it?s an intelligence operation."
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/02/jeff-gates-wikileaks-and-espionage-%E2%80%93-israeli-style/
The problem with this theory is that Wikileaks is not 'pro israel' by any means.
Israel told US officials it would keep Gaza "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/israel-gaza-collapse-wikileaks/)
Israel said it had ?secret accord? with U.S. over expanding settlements even as Obama said in Cairo they must stop (http://mondoweiss.net/2010/12/the-smoking-wiki-gun-israel-and-us-had-secret-accord-for-settlements-even-as-obama-promised-muslim-world-they-must-end.html)
QuoteThough the information has not been released there will be a considerable dump, according to reports, including some 3,700 documents detailing Israel?s assassination plot in Dubai, the 2007 air strike against Syria, and the 2006 invasion of southern Lebanon.
WikiLeaks Poised for Major Israel Document Dump
Info on Killings, 2006 War Near Release (http://news.antiwar.com/2010/12/24/wikileaks-poised-for-major-israel-document-dump/)
Problem?
You have a point, but I still think that these leaked cables just go to show that the US is Israel's bitch :) and that they are in it together. Stories similar to these cables have been reported in the mainstream media pre-Wikileaks, like when Biden went to Israel and they announced more settlement building:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/03/11/biden-in-israel/
Also, there's the question as to why they are still waiting to publish the Israeli document dump. Why not now with the rest of it? I believe that Julian Assange has said it's because of the "sensitivities" of the US media or something like that. Also, there have been allegations of a deal with the Israeli government:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/12/07/18665978.php
Peace.