Do you agree ?

[jkhan]

https://youtu.be/wEAE6IhPu_U?si=WQfg-00nq7T9doQD

Watch the video and if you are a believer in One God pls explain why and how he got it wrong about God and Evil and if you agree with him explain pls why.. No argument just for info and knowledge and see what people indeed think of God....
Thanks..

[Fusion]

Its interesting thread and I wonder why no one has posted a review.
For the purpose of audience, I will try to summaries my views.

In actual fact, am fond of noir movies and often watches them and I remember watching Gaslight movie of the 1940s. In the film, the term "gaslighting" originates from the plot where the husband, played by Charles Boyer in the 1944 version, manipulates and deceives his wife, portrayed by Ingrid Bergman, into believing she is losing her sanity. One of the methods he uses involves dimming the gas lights in their home and then denying that the light has changed when his wife points it out. This systematic manipulation is aimed at making her doubt her own perceptions and memory, ultimately to control her and gain power over her.

The link provided in this thread uses this concept metaphorically to describe a similar process of manipulation and control purportedly exercised by religious narratives within the Abrahamic faiths. Just as the husband in "Gaslight" manipulates his wife into questioning her sanity by altering her environment and then denying it, the video suggests that religious narratives manipulate believers into questioning their moral and existential perceptions. This is achieved by presenting a reality where an all-loving, all-powerful God is said to allow or even cause suffering, evil, and imperfection in the world, leading believers to doubt their understanding of goodness, justice, and divine benevolence.

I would go even beyond and sight many personal observations where I questioned the almighty for many things happened or happening in my own life and asking questions "why me" and then looking at the world and what's happening in the world and again question "whey them". Recent example is of the suffering inflicted upon a certain community living in Gaza and being subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatments by the followers of the same Abrahamic religion, but again this would go into geo-politics domain and so much evil has been inflicted that one can not clearly understand is the one being oppressed really being punished or what?

I would have joined the ranks of those who call themselves atheists and would have agreed with what's explained in the youtube link posted in this thread, had I not understood one thing.. which is that who ever sent by God as messengers, their main message revolves around one thing "Akhira". i.e. this world is not temporary and there is another world where every one will be held accountable for their past actions , good or bad and hence the concept of evil and suffering in the world are part of the test of life, with human free will playing a crucial role in this dynamic.

In essence, The narrator of the YouTube video presents a perspective on God and evil that overlooks key theological principles found in Islamic teachings, particularly those emphasizing the wisdom, justice, and mercy of God as outlined in the Quran. In Islam, the existence of evil and suffering is understood within the context of a divine test, where human free will plays a crucial role. The Quran teaches that God is all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent), and that everything, including apparent evil, occurs within God's wisdom and serves a purpose beyond human comprehension. This perspective challenges the video's assertion of a contradiction by highlighting that God allows human beings the freedom to choose, making the world a place of trial and testing to distinguish the righteous from the wicked. The Quranic view reconciles the presence of evil with God's benevolence by framing life's hardships as opportunities for growth, learning, and spiritual development, ultimately leading to a greater good that may not be immediately apparent to human understanding.

To illustrate the Islamic perspective on God, evil, and human suffering through a parable, consider the story of a farmer and his seeds:

Once upon a time, in a vast and fertile land, there lived a wise and compassionate farmer. This farmer had a variety of seeds, each with the potential to grow into a beautiful and fruitful plant. Before planting, the farmer knew which seeds were resilient and which were fragile, yet he planted them all across his land, giving each the same care and opportunity to grow.

As the days passed, some seeds sprouted quickly, basking in the sunlight, while others struggled, facing challenges from the harsh weather and the soil's varying conditions. The farmer watched over them, providing water and nutrients, but he also allowed the natural challenges of the environment to test the seeds. He knew that the struggle would make them stronger, more resilient, and better prepared for the life ahead.

One day, a passerby, observing the farmer's actions, questioned, "Why do you let these seeds struggle? If you are so powerful and caring, why not make all conditions perfect for them to grow without hardship?"

The farmer replied, "It is through facing the wind and the rain that these plants grow strong. Their struggles allow them to develop deep roots and sturdy stems, enabling them to withstand future storms and provide shelter and nourishment to others. Without these challenges, they would not reach their full potential or appreciate the warmth of the sun after a cold night."

This parable mirrors the Islamic understanding of God's role in human life. Just as the farmer knows the potential of each seed and provides it with the opportunity to grow, God knows the potential of every soul and places it in circumstances where it can develop strength, resilience, and faith. The challenges and "evils" in life are akin to the harsh weather and poor soil—tests that, when faced with patience and faith, lead to spiritual growth and understanding. God, like the wise farmer, does not impose these conditions out of malice but out of a deep, encompassing love, guiding every soul towards its ultimate potential. In this way, the presence of trials and tribulations in the world is not a sign of God's absence or malevolence but a testament to His wisdom, mercy, and the profound love He holds for His creation, encouraging growth, learning, and eventual flourishing in the eternal gardens of Paradise.

In the end, every one is for himself, he goes through hardships in this life and when he shall meet his lord, let him ask all these queries directly, at least that is what I would do and perhaps I will understand all the reasons that i  have been puzzled in life.... but I would still want to be on the side of being a believer that there is a creator rather then being on other side.

So to answer Jkhan question, I do not agree with the video. The narrator's analysis misses key Islamic teachings that address the coexistence of an all-loving, all-powerful God with the presence of evil. Firstly, life is seen as a test in Islam, with trials serving to strengthen faith and character. Secondly, divine wisdom is beyond human comprehension; what may seem evil can have a purpose unknown to us. Thirdly, humans have free will, making them responsible for their actions rather than attributing all evil directly to God. Fourthly, the emphasis on God's mercy and forgiveness is overlooked, which is central to understanding the Islamic perspective on suffering and redemption. Lastly, the role of Satan in Islam is not to overpower human will but to tempt, leaving individuals responsible for their choices. These concepts collectively offer a nuanced understanding of the balance between divine omnipotence, human agency, and the existence of evil.

I would like to share an interesting video where a Muslim turned atheist is discussing with an atheist turned Muslim. and I am amazed by the knowledge of Hamza in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvbnu48fVME


Thank you.

[Jafar]

Due to confusion on the actual meaning of the word "God".
I refrained from using such word and prefer to use the word "Infinite".

From the perspective of the Infinite.
Anyone is ME.
Anywhere is HERE.
Anytime is NOW.

Due to by definition, infinity does not have any edges/border, in any form of definition (identification, space or time). In time context: it doesn't have any beginning or ending. As all finite definition of time is inside / part of the Infinite.

Thus the reason why there can only be one Infinite.
And no finite things exist outside of the Infinite.

As part of the 'illusion', every finite part of the Infinite is created with opposing polarity concept.
Because of 'good' exist then it's opposite 'evil' also exist, because 'love' exist then 'hatred' also exist and so on and so on.

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.
-- Lao Tse, Tao The Ching

[Fusion]

I've pondered deeply over your insightful comments regarding the use of the term "God" versus "Infinite," and I appreciate the depth of thought you've shared with us. Your perspective has undoubtedly enriched our discussions and understanding of the divine.

The essence of our dialogue seems to revolve not around the semantics of "God" or "Infinite" but rather our individual and collective understanding of the Creator's nature. When I use the term "God," it is with the intention to convey the Infinite's boundless and unfathomable essence, much in the spirit of what you articulated. The choice of word—whether "God," "Infinite," or another—is ultimately a bridge towards communicating our reflections and feelings about the divine.

Your reflections bring to light the profound reality that the Infinite, by its very nature, transcends the limitations of human language and concepts. It encompasses all dualities and exists beyond the confines of time, space, and form. This understanding resonates deeply with the core of many spiritual traditions across the world.

It's intriguing to consider the diversity of paths and names humanity has devised to connect with and understand the Infinite. The Vedas, for instance, speak of a singular, unifying principle behind the manifold expressions of divinity, mirroring the essence of what you've described. This diversity in expression—be it through idols, rituals, or names—is perhaps a testament to the Infinite's inexhaustible nature, accommodating the limitless ways in which we, as finite beings, seek connection and meaning. Of course Islam is against all shapes or forms of describing the creator-Allah which is mention in Quran based on the Arabic use of word Allah to describe the infinite.

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment that the essence of our discourse should not be clouded by the terms we choose to employ. What matters profoundly is the intent and understanding with which we approach the concept of the divine. The Infinite, God, or any name we ascribe is but a reflection of our attempt to grasp that which is ultimately beyond comprehension.

As our understandings evolve and as science offers new lenses through which to view the universe, our language and metaphors for the divine may also shift. Yet, this journey of exploration and understanding is a beautiful aspect of the human experience. It speaks to our inherent longing to connect with and understand the Infinite in all its manifestations.


References:
OM! That (the Invisible-Absolute) is whole; whole is this (the visible phenomenal); from the Invisible Whole comes forth the visible whole. Though the visible whole has come out from that Invisible Whole, yet the Whole remains unaltered.
The indefinite term "That" is used in the Upanishads to designate the Invisible-Absolute, because no word or name can fully define It. A finite object, like a table or a tree, can be defined; but God, who is infinite and unbounded, cannot be expressed by finite language. Therefore the Rishis or Divine Seers, desirous not to limit the Unlimited, chose the indefinite term "That" to designate the Absolute.
In the light of true wisdom the phenomenal and the Absolute are inseparable. All existence is in the Absolute; and whatever exists, must exist in It; hence all manifestation is merely a modification of the One Supreme Whole, and neither increases nor diminishes It. The Whole therefore remains unaltered.
All this, whatsoever exists in the universe, should be covered by the Lord. Having renounced (the unreal), enjoy (the Real). Do not covet the wealth of any man
Source: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/3283/pg3283-images.html

So let people continue to use the word God, Allah, Bhagwan, Lord etc. as long as they try to understand the creator in hope the creator may guide them.

Due to confusion on the actual meaning of the word "God".
I refrained from using such word and prefer to use the word "Infinite".

From the perspective of the Infinite.
Anyone is ME.
Anywhere is HERE.
Anytime is NOW.

Due to by definition, infinity does not have any edges/border, in any form of definition (identification, space or time). In time context: it doesn't have any beginning or ending. As all finite definition of time is inside / part of the Infinite.

Thus the reason why there can only be one Infinite.
And no finite things exist outside of the Infinite.

As part of the 'illusion', every finite part of the Infinite is created with opposing polarity concept.
Because of 'good' exist then it's opposite 'evil' also exist, because 'love' exist then 'hatred' also exist and so on and so on.

[Jafar]

Yes use whatever "name" that one prefer as a reference to the all inclusive, the infinite.
Brahman, Tao, Heavenly Father, The Source, Ar-Raheem, Great Spirit...

Name is not important, what's more important is to grasp (at least) the concept of infinite.
Bound-less, border-less, edge-less, on any dimension.
To such extent that even the definition of dimension (space, time) is also defined inside the infinite.

As such that any form of conception that is finite (bordered, edged) on any dimension will be and must be a part of that infinite.

It will be then self-evident that:
There are many finites but there can only be one infinite.

That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept.
--Ra, Law Of One

Now..
From the perspective of any finite (which definitely part of the infinite).
There is here, because not here (there) exist..
There is me, because not me (he/she/it,them) exist..
There is now, because not now (past, future) exist..

For any finite, there is always a border / edge that act as a separation between IS and NOT IS. Between 'here' and 'there', between 'me' and 'not me', between 'now' and 'past or future'.
Yet any of those finites, is always inside the infinite.

[shukri]

Yes use whatever "name" that one prefer as a reference to the all inclusive, the infinite.
Brahman, Tao, Heavenly Father, The Source, Ar-Raheem, Great Spirit...

My friend,

What is the characteristic of this "The Infinite"
Does He/She have intuity, feeling, consciousness, etc. like human beings
OR Just like a robot?

Thank you.

[Jafar]

As mentioned, all-inclusive.
And you are referring to "the infinite" with 3rd person grammar in English.
As if you view "the infinite" is located "outside of you"?
How could something that has no border / edges be located outside of anything?

Since before time and space were,
the Tao IS.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
-- Lao Tse, Tao The Ching

[shukri]

As mentioned, all-inclusive.
And you are referring to "the infinite" with 3rd person grammar in English.
As if you view "the infinite" is located "outside of you"?
How could something that has no border / edges be located outside of anything?

Do you mean "The Infinite" has no desire, no feeling, no consciousness, etc. contrary to human beings!
Sorry sir, I don't get you!

Three more questions:
(1) If you get something that makes you happy, do you pay your gratitude to "The Infinite" OR you just pay the gratitude to yourself as you are part of "The Infinite"!
(2) If you need something so badly, do you try to communicate or pray to Him/Her OR you just do nothing as "The Infinite" is already in you!
(3) Do "The Infinite'' have a jurisdiction or control over your journey on this earth and in the hereafter?

Just for my curiosity.
Thank you.

[Jafar]

Do you mean "The Infinite" has no desire, no feeling, no consciousness, etc. contrary to human beings!

As mentioned, all inclusive.
All X
Whatever X is...

From the perspective of the infinite.
- Anyone is me (Identification)
- Anywhere is here (Space)
- Anytime is now (Time)

We've discussed using the analogy of Lord Of The Rings and Tolkien on another thread.
Let's use that analogy, everyone / everything in Lord Of The Rings is actually Tolkien.

And then you're interacting with few characters, how would you answer the following:
- An Orc asked you.. "Does Tolkien have fangs?"
- Gollum asked you.. "Does Tolkien love Fish?"
- Frodo asked you.. "Where is Tolkien? Is he in Shire?"
- Gandalf asked you.. "Does Tolkien proficient in Magic?"
- Sauron asked you.. "Does Tolkien have desire towards power and control?"
- Treebeard asked you... "Does Tolkien love the tree and forest?"

[shukri]

Sir,
The main purpose of my previous posts is to know the attributes\traits of "The Infinite" you believe in.
As you know in the Quran, the God's Attributes are given by God's Asmaul-Husna (the most beautiful names of God) such as Merciful, Omnipotent, Wise and so on.

OR
May I know if "The Infinite" in your belief is not considered as God by your definition!

Thanks.

[shukri]

We've discussed using the analogy of Lord Of The Rings and Tolkien on another thread.
Let's use that analogy, everyone / everything in Lord Of The Rings is actually Tolkien.

If An Orc, Gollum, Frodo are actually Tolkien, they must have the same power/capability like the first/original Tolkien!
Is that true, sir?

[shukri]

Since before time and space were,
the Tao IS.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
-- Lao Tse, Tao The Ching

Did you do the same thing as Lao Tse did?
How to do that?

*Sorry sir!
So many questions from me.