Petra is the Holy City of Islam

[Makaveli]

I think it is useless to guess a specific religious tradition within the Quran. There is too much emphasis on God an not the Messiah for it to be Messianic Judaism, not to mention the latter is mostly a new age movement within Judaism and not something too spread around 5-7 c. A.D. But judging from some of the verses, it is possible to guess that there are also many traits of Essenes community's theology, early Christian Gnosticism and/or other resembling mystical beliefs.

Arabic as a standalone language too was not developed as a language we know today until mid-late 8th century, similar as the Early Modern English (KJB and William Shakespeare) were a product of English Protestantism to spread their influence. Arabic was eventually compiled out of many Northern and Southern languages and dialects. The Quranic script was also altered throughout the the periods of Islamic development. The "earliest" copies of the Quran available today look more like bad copies used by scholars to train their writing skills and do not serve any serious theological or research purposes, even Fatihah in them are missing :/

So so far it is unknown which Semitic tradition does Quran adher too. One idea was Ge'ez, I will look at it one day. It can as well be constructed of various dialects and languages, because there is a clear indication of at least one calque word: In-jeel, which is clearly not of Semitic origin but is a calque from Greek eu'angelos, for letter jiim is also spelled as G in Semitic traditions, similar as P/F and other consonants.

Unlike calque, we can also observe possible borrowing from Persian, which is jinn, meaning soul/spirit/invisible. Yet word الجنة is used for both THE JINN and GARDENS. Such controversy is unacceptable in the script which originally was pure ABJAD, meaning it lacked any fake/additional diacritics, therefore such polarly-different meanings make the book even more intricate and unclear. Well, modern Arabic language is certainly of no use in understanding the Quran, even counter-productive in studying the Quran.

It is clear that the Quran contains influences from the Old Testament, and not only Torah. But what thing of a particular interest is the story about the People of the Cave, identified as the Seven Sleepers, which is not even based on any of the previous holy scriptures:

The earliest version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Serugh (c. 450 – 521), which is itself derived from an earlier Greek source, now lost.[2] An outline of this tale appears in Gregory of Tours (538–594), and in Paul the Deacon's (720–799) History of the Lombards.[3] The best-known Western version of the story appears in Jacobus da Varagine's Golden Legend.

And biography of this dude is of particular interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_of_Serugh

[huruf]

Has there to be a holy city of Islam?

Haven't e got enough ith Rome, the seat of a worldly empire that broke so many other people? Jerusalem so that some fake religious nuts  steal a country and use to keep the middle east under the nato empire?

If e are going to have aholy city for that God save us from holy cities. All in all, the meka of mega real estate developments looks almost naive.

ruh al quddus is for the hearts. Holy cities ar an invitation to worldly grandeurs, pure vanity.

Salaam   

[centi50]

Salam to All,

What about the work of Pazuzu,

Pazuzu disagree on Petra

God bless

[Jafar]

I think it is useless to guess a specific religious tradition within the Quran. There is too much emphasis on God an not the Messiah for it to be Messianic Judaism, not to mention the latter is mostly a new age movement within Judaism and not something too spread around 5-7 c. A.D.

It's not a guess, it's a natural evolutionary path of tradition and how they influence each others..
Messianic Judaism does relatively focus more on God if compared to Coptics, Catholics or Orthodox.
Yet it focus more on Messiah if compared to Rabbanical Judaism...

Apparently it gained more ground outside of traditional Judaism ground (ie. Judea Province of Roman Empire) during 5-7 AD.
The Cave Sleepers of Ephesus is among the popular widespread story of Messianic Judaism and Orthodox branch of Christianity.

But judging from some of the verses, it is possible to guess that there are also many traits of Essenes community's theology, early Christian Gnosticism and/or other resembling mystical beliefs.

Definitely, the fall of the Devil (from a high ranking angel due to refusal to bow to Adam) is a popular story among the Essenes...
Considered as Apocrypha (ie Illegal / Unofficial Story) by Rabbanical Judaism or other Judaism branch..

It is clear that the Quran contains influences from the Old Testament, and not only Torah. But what thing of a particular interest is the story about the People of the Cave, identified as the Seven Sleepers, which is not even based on any of the previous holy scriptures:

It was a popular story / tale widespread among Orthodox, Copts and Messianic Judaism (Eastern Christianity), the 7 sleepers of Ephesus.

The earliest (surviving) record about such tale was written by the gentleman which you've mentioned, a Syrian Orthodox bishop named  Jacob of Serugh. Which potentially derived from another older source.

Has there to be a holy city of Islam?

No.. it's all about politics and power grab anyway..

Haven't e got enough ith Rome, the seat of a worldly empire that broke so many other people? Jerusalem so that some fake religious nuts  steal a country and use to keep the middle east under the nato empire?

Religious, Nationalist, Racist and other forms of Fanatics are indeed nuts...

What about the work of Pazuzu, Pazuzu disagree on Petra

Mr. Pazuzu is fanatical towards Yemen, everything is centered and oriented towards Yemen.

[huruf]

Mr. Pazuzu is fanatical towards Yemen, everything is centered and oriented towards Yemen.

Pazuzu is not fanatic. Whatever he says he proves and gives all the facts and arguments. That you do not think Yemen deserves any attention at all, does not mean that truth should not be said aboutbecause truth is too good for it.  It is not a cquestion of orienting or centering anything but whether it is false or right.

Salaam

[Jafar]

Pazuzu is not fanatic. Whatever he says he proves and gives all the facts and arguments. That you do not think Yemen deserves any attention at all, does not mean that truth should not be said aboutbecause truth is too good for it.  It is not a cquestion of orienting or centering anything but whether it is false or right.

Thank you Mrs Pazuzu..

Yemen does deserve and really need world attention now..
It has been 2 years since Saudi troops invaded and performed murderous act there..
Thus a very good reason to put anyone attention towards Yemen..

And apparently the (western and islamic) world turned a blind eye, perhaps due to the atrocities was performed by a holy islamic kingdom, a loyal ally to the western world.

[huruf]

You intend to be insulting. Since I do not go allong with your surmissions nor lavish you with praise, you have to taint the person who praises somebody else's work or talents with something of a vested interest in what the person says, only great mr. jaffar is objective and wise.

You cannot undo what Pazuzu says but you divert the question to something that has nothing to do ith the present debate.

There are many ways to contribute to the help of people of Yemen now if you are interested in that. And most certainly Pazuzu is not to blame for that plight nor are those who find his research of great interest.

Don't use the plight of the people of Yemen to attack others.

[Makaveli]

No city deserves attention in relation to Exodus, as it did not happen historically, nowhere and never. The attempts to "prove" anything is a result of literal understanding of those scriptures, which is the plague of many people. It's like reading book of Revelation and understading it...literally. The stories of Exodus were available long before the OT was even complied. It is a clear methaphor of people being guided by faith to escape lowly aspect of their souls, such as being misled and decieved by Firaun, which symbolizes unjust authority. Word for Egypt is misr which according to the root definitions I could find means "city", but its primary meaing is "to cover", "fence", "barrier". People were released from the barrier of their by the Messiah, which is Moses (according to respective gematria values Moses and Messiah-Moschiach refer to the same). If you ever want to learn anything outside of the bus stop in this life, learn to think that there is something behind the Cosmos as well. 12 tribes of Isreal? Are you too lazy to look at the calendar on your wall?

[Makaveli]

It's not a guess, it's a natural evolutionary path of tradition and how they influence each others..
Messianic Judaism does relatively focus more on God if compared to Coptics, Catholics or Orthodox.
Yet it focus more on Messiah if compared to Rabbanical Judaism...

There is no single specific tradition within the Quran, I think anyone interested can count at least several. Christian influence - certainly. Summeria-Akkadian influence of astro-theology and Phonician religion? 100% And many more.

Yes, every new tradition completes and surpasses something of the past, there is nothing new under the Sun as the saying goes. However, the more traditions or hints on traditions we can find in the Quran the more it seems that it aims to unite them in one volume, which looks very similar to what early pre-modern was all about (archaic).

I still don't follow what do you mean by Messianic Judaism, according to your explanation. From what I observe it focuses on Jesus Christ while adhering to traditional Judaism and is a new age movement circa around 1960's. The idea of Messiah in Judaism is/was very widespread up to the Zionist movements of the 17-19th centuries, which broke/adjusted the tradition stating that they do not have to wait for Messiah anymore and can now go back to Israel since they themselves united are Messiah (especially 19th century Zionism). This logic is very intact with theosophy movements which also appeared in the 19th century. 

Apparently it gained more ground outside of traditional Judaism ground (ie. Judea Province of Roman Empire) during 5-7 AD.
The Cave Sleepers of Ephesus is among the popular widespread story of Messianic Judaism and Orthodox branch of Christianity.
Definitely, the fall of the Devil (from a high ranking angel due to refusal to bow to Adam) is a popular story among the Essenes...
Considered as Apocrypha (ie Illegal / Unofficial Story) by Rabbanical Judaism or other Judaism branch..

It was a popular story / tale widespread among Orthodox, Copts and Messianic Judaism (Eastern Christianity), the 7 sleepers of Ephesus.

The earliest (surviving) record about such tale was written by the gentleman which you've mentioned, a Syrian Orthodox bishop named  Jacob of Serugh. Which potentially derived from another older source.

Yes, Greek source. Aristotle I think had a similar story, so the story comes not necessarily from Christian or Jewish sources but Antiquity in general. The reason I mentioned it is an interesting observation is that the Quran, now it is obvious, does not claim specific Abrahamic tradition, but is more into antiquity, which for me personally is a great finding, as I do love antiquity and archaic, where man and religion was one unity of human life.

[Jafar]

There is no single specific tradition within the Quran, I think anyone interested can count at least several. Christian influence - certainly. Summeria-Akkadian influence of astro-theology and Phonician religion? 100% And many more.

Exactly!!
It's a mixed bag of neighboring tradition.
Sumerian-Akkadian (God wrote a book, Adam, Garden of Eden, Noah Flood), Egyptian (Judgement Day), Judaism (Monotheism, Abraham, Angry God because his people worship a golden calf, Moses, Solomon, David, No Pork etc...), Messianic (Jesus, John, Mary), Syrian Orthodox (Sleeper of Ephesus), Essenes (Fall of the Devil), Zoroastrianism (Battle between good and bad, Devil as the enemy of God) and local traditions.

Which is natural, as those tradition lived nearby, it's easy for human to interact with each others thus influence each others...

It's however quite hard to find influence from far away land such as Taoism or Buddhism.

The same case happened when we dig and observe Chinese Buddhism, within you can find influence from Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Local Tradition as well. And it's hard to find influence from far away land such as God wrote a book, angry and jealous God of other Gods, Abraham, Exodus, Moses, Adam, Garden of Eden, Holy City, A standardized location to face towards to upon meditation etc..

Yes, every new tradition completes and surpasses something of the past, there is nothing new under the Sun as the saying goes. However, the more traditions or hints on traditions we can find in the Quran the more it seems that it aims to unite them in one volume, which looks very similar to what early pre-modern was all about (archaic).

Ideas are continuously invented and adopted into the religion.
Then they make an effort to 'standardize' the religion by writing a holy book, to be the sole 'authority'.

I still don't follow what do you mean by Messianic Judaism, according to your explanation. From what I observe it focuses on Jesus Christ while adhering to traditional Judaism and is a new age movement circa around 1960's. The idea of Messiah in Judaism is/was very widespread up to the Zionist movements of the 17-19th centuries, which broke/adjusted the tradition stating that they do not have to wait for Messiah anymore and can now go back to Israel since they themselves united are Messiah (especially 19th century Zionism). This logic is very intact with theosophy movements which also appeared in the 19th century. 

An evidence that religion and tradition is continuously evolving up until today and well into the future..
Invented and adjusted to meet human needs at specific situation in accordance to it's place and time....

Yes, Greek source. Aristotle I think had a similar story, so the story comes not necessarily from Christian or Jewish sources but Antiquity in general. The reason I mentioned it is an interesting observation is that the Quran, now it is obvious, does not claim specific Abrahamic tradition, but is more into antiquity, which for me personally is a great finding, as I do love antiquity and archaic, where man and religion was one unity of human life.

Variety and evolution of religion / tradition is an interesting phenomenon to observe..
Although fanaticism is really pain in the arse to deal with. Any form of fanaticism...