As'haab-il Kahf - Number and Location

[maxq]

I was reading surah Kahf this morning and while I was on verse 22, I hit upon something I think is quite remarkable.

THE NUMBER OF CAVE DWELLERS
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quoting QXP by Dr. Shabbir Ahmad:
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18:22 Then, some would say they were three, and their dog was the fourth, and some would say five, and their dog the sixth. They only made wild guesses, and some of them said that they were seven and their dog was the eighth. Say, "My Lord is best Aware of their number.? There are some who know* their right number but, argue not about them but a passing comment. You need not consult anyone about them (to avoid undue controversies).
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The Quran here mentions three scenarios:

1) They were 3... the dog was the 4th
2) They were 5... the dog was the 6th
3) They were 7... the dog was the 8th

The first two have been labelled as "wild guesses", and after that it is said "and some say they were seven and the dog eighth". And then is another hint, "Say, 'My Lord is best Aware of their number.'" implying that the numbers mentioned above are yet in question.

This further gives a hint that 1) and 2) and (possibly) anything in between is a wild guess, and 3) could be too, so the correct number is between 2) and 3), which would be 6 men and 1 dog, totaling 7.

POSSIBLE LOCATION
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Christian accounts, especially by Jacobus de Voragine's indicate that here were "seven sleepers", and there is no mention of a dog who according to the Quran was not "sleeping". I hence started to do some digging on the internet hoping to find something that would complete the picture. I found the following:

http://www.flat3.co.uk/levant/pages/011019.htm
http://www.flat3.co.uk/levant/pages/011020.htm

The above is an exhibit that seems to support my hypothesis, which is a rock-cut hollow construct (labeled a Byzantine necropolis) near Amman, Jorden that contains 7 ossuaries. One of these is considerably smaller than the rest, hinting that it houses a child or an animal such as a dog. It is possible that that this cave-like construct was actually a cave that was later modified and dedicated to its dwellers, and these 6 people and their dog, when they died, were each buried in there over the course of time. Conjunctiure? Maybe and maybe not... but it is something that cannot be refuted at least.

THE SITE TODAY
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There is an old mosque (built from the Umayyad times) right beside this cave-like construct and the natives of the area claim it was a site of pilgrimage. Moreover, to get to this place, all you have to do is ask for a taxi in Amman and instruct the driver to take you to "Ahl al Kahf".

I am beginning to think that the legend narrated by de Voragine and Gregory of Tours may have some level of fabrication especially with regards to the location, and the number of men/people. It is possible that their accounts may have been marred by misleading details.

maxq

[Pazuzu]

It's not important what their number was. What's important is the MORAL behind the story.

My 2 cents. 

[maxq]

lol I think I got the moral of the story, hence I wanted to explore other aspects

The moral is explained within the surah itself (but whoever reads my post, must read the entire surah. It is really FUN and INFORMATIVE to read - no exaggeration):

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Hold fast to the company of those who remember their Lord morning and evening seeking His Approval. (6:52, 8:52-54, 89:29:30). And let not your eyes overlook them in quest for the beauties of this world. And pay no heed to any whom Our Law has made to forget Us because he only follows his desires, and abandons all that is right.

AND

Hence, know the Day when the tycoons of wealth and power will be shaken by Our Law, and the poor downtrodden will come at par with them. All humanity will stand equal. No person will stay behind in his or her birth right of dignity. (20:105).

AND

Say (O Prophet), "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It is revealed to me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward to meeting His Sustainer, let him do works that help others, and let him admit no one as partner in the service of his Sustainer. ?

----

The entire surah it seems was recited by prophet while he was in the company of religious figures of their time who were well-versed in their respective theo-historic "sciences". People only seem to mention As'haab-e Kahf, Moses and Cyrus, but there is the fourth pseudo-story between the cave dwellers and Moses, that is overlooked.

[mr. humble]

salaam, everyone,

what i do not understand is the significance behind why god consider it as a big of a deal about the number of people in chapter 18?

what difference does it make if you know the right number from the wrong number of the group of "ahl-al kahaf"?

the quran cannot be taken as a allegory completely, phoenix1(waleed).

peace, rifat

[jkhan]

Salam everyone....

Is there anyone who has any clue what the SIGN in chapter 18:17 ...
" This is of the proof (Aaya)  of Allah"

Any research or evidence?

[Anoushirvan]

Salam,

in the textual context, the sign in question is that the condition of the youths will be eased (v18.16) by the fact the sun at rise and the sun at set will not touch them in the cave (v18.17), i.e. they will not be burned by sun rays while they are hidden in the cave.

Or do you want to understand what this sign means beyond mere literal meaning ?

[jkhan]

Salam,

in the textual context, the sign in question is that the condition of the youths will be eased (v18.16) by the fact the sun at rise and the sun at set will not touch them in the cave (v18.17), i.e. they will not be burned by sun rays while they are hidden in the cave.

Or do you want to understand what this sign means beyond mere literal meaning ?

Salam...

Thank you...

Actually I have no clue... That's why I posed this question...

I tried but in vain... I don't understand what could be the SIGN here...

So you say giving them shade was a sign literally... Everybody knows being inside a cave can possibly not touch the sunlight...  Sometimes you are right...  God uses in various verses.. This kind of phrase..there is sign for you in this...
But unfortunately I couldn't  grasp.... God will..

Appreciate your understanding... God guide us...

[Anoushirvan]

So you say giving them shade was a sign literally... Everybody knows being inside a cave can possibly not touch the sunlight...  Sometimes you are right...  God uses in various verses.. This kind of phrase..there is sign for you in this...
But unfortunately I couldn't  grasp.... God will..

Appreciate your understanding... God guide us...

I think I have some clue why it's there.
As I said sometimes in this forum, and also Qur'an says, one must understand how ancient scholars versed in the Scriptures understood them.

Here is how I would decipher the passage.

Sunrise symbolizes resurrection day while sunset symbolizes the end of times.
Heat, be the heath of the sun or even fever (e.g. see Matthew 8.14), symbolizes God's wrath.

So the allegory of the passage means that people having rejected the worshiping of idols will be spared from God's wrath at the end of time and at resurrection day.
This is why verse 8.17 concludes with "Whoever God guides is the guided one, and whoever He misguides, you will not find for him any ally to give direction".

[jkhan]

I think I have some clue why it's there.
As I said sometimes in this forum, and also Qur'an says, one must understand how ancient scholars versed in the Scriptures understood them.

Here is how I would decipher the passage.

Sunrise symbolizes resurrection day while sunset symbolizes the end of times.
Heat, be the heath of the sun or even fever (e.g. see Matthew 8.14), symbolizes God's wrath.

So the allegory of the passage means that people having rejected the worshiping of idols will be spared from God's wrath at the end of time and at resurrection day.
This is why verse 8.17 concludes with "Whoever God guides is the guided one, and whoever He misguides, you will not find for him any ally to give direction".

Thank you brother.....

I have many a question in this chapter... I am afraid o don't get some satisfactory answers from self or others...

Other question is 18:94-98

What is that structure Dulqarnain built?...
Can anyone imagine a structure that could possibly stop one party entering another...  This is in between two mountains if translations are correct... Either mountains should be so high so that they cannot enter even after the structure is built... Or the mountain is so high as well a huge range of mountains and by blocking this entry it means they have to come to these people by traveling thousands of miles...

What is you people thought..

[Anoushirvan]

Salam

Thank you brother.....

I have many a question in this chapter... I am afraid o don't get some satisfactory answers from self or others...

Surah 18 is one of the most mysterious surahs of Qur'an.

Other question is 18:94-98

What is that structure Dulqarnain built?...
Can anyone imagine a structure that could possibly stop one party entering another... 

This one is more complicated, but like above, it has to be understood like ancient Jewish (or sometimes Christian) scholars understood the Scriptures.

Here is how I decipher this passage.

The key expression is in verse 18.96: zubara al-hadid.

This means sheets or blocks of iron and this is the correct meaning in the literal context.
But the text would like you to hear something else by the process of double-entendre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre).
Hadid / iron alludes to Hudud (https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hdd#(18:96:3)) which means "limits", in the sens of legal limits.
Zubara / sheets alludes to Zubur, the Scriptures.

So the story of the building of the iron wall, beyond its literal meaning, wants you to understand something about the establishment of the law by the Scriptures, which, by the way, is one of the major themes in Qur'an.

In the Pentateuch, there is already one key character linked with the establishment of the law and two mountains: Moses (the mountains being Sinaï and Horeb, though possibly both are the same).

Therefore, the story of Dhul-Qarnain alludes to the story of Moses in the Pentateuch and the divine commandments he received from God (technically the story of Dhul-Qarnain is a midrash on the story of Moses and other people).

The Gog and Magog are "mufsidin" (v18.94), i.e. they spread corruption on earth like the disbelievers (see Surah 2).
Surah 2 more or less explicitly advocated for the need of a divine ethical law (the deen) in order to stop spreading corruption on earth.
Passage 18.94 to 18.98 says the same as Surah 2 but in a kind of allegorical way.

The molten copper (qitr) poured onto the sheets of iron is likely alluding to the passage of the Pentateuch Numbers 21.07-09.

Nb 21.04-05 Then they set out from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, in order to bypass the land of Edom. But the people grew impatient on the journey 5and spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you led us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread or water, and we detest this wretched food!"

Lack of bread and water symbolizes lack of divine Law. Or, in the context, oblivion of the divine commandments.


Nb 21.06-09 So the LORD sent venomous snakes among the people, and many of the Israelites were bitten and died. 7Then the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned by speaking against the LORD and against you. Intercede with the LORD so He will take the snakes away from us." So Moses interceded for the people. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live." So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.

Here the bronze snake acts as a reminder of the divine commandments (see the Book of Wisdom 16.05-06).

So in Qur'an verse 18.96, qitr likely means that the divine law must be constantly remembered so as to prevent spreading corruption.
This is how the Gog and Magog cannot cross the wall.

But at the end of times, there is no law anymore, the wall has been leveled and corruption resumes spreading on earth until everyone returns to God.