Messages

Salam Euphoric.

I would not call these "variations," rather they are "errors".

In the process of copying the Qur'an and spreading its message, it is clear that scribal errors have taken place where a word or words have been mispelt or even omitted (I think there was a verse 57:24 where "Huwa" was missing from some versions).

The solution is a little bit laborous but simple. All scribal errors are to be reviewed, with the context being the prime determiner of which was is correct.

In the absence of context, then we need to look at other verses that support or reject the scribal difference (is God "King" of Judgement Day or "Possessor" of Judgement Day?).

Take for example 30:2-3, all "codified" versions have Rome losing then winning. Yet, the context screams the opposite. Digging a bit deeper, we find that there were some versions of the Qur'an that did indeed have Rome "winning and then losing" - as I said, it is quite a task.

Salam Fusion.

Yes, that is correct. The Qur'an was written and later arranged by the Prophet himslef. The counter argument used to attempt to discredit the verses I mentioned are that the Prophet was "ummy" and therefore could not have written the text. This is a false interpretation as the word "ummy" is mostly used in opposition to those who have received the scripture (ahlul kitaab WAL umiyeen) - the word means "gentile" (one who did not receive any previous scripture). The One who sent to the "gentiles/umiyeen" a messenger from amongst them (62:2) - obviously the Prophet was not sent to an illeterate people, but people who never knew a scripture.

For the origin of the question, it started from the Sunnis and unfortunately some brothers and sisters have been repeating it as it caused them confusion.

Finally, I did not use divine protection as an argument (I said that could be said by those who accept code-19) - I am merely saying that the act of "copying" a work does not give the copier any authority or legitimacy (which is the subtle claim being alluded to by this argument). All our religious texts are in "copy" form and, unless we can find the original tablets of Moses, this will be the case until the end of time. As for the Qur'an, if we accept that it was in written form during the life of the Prophet, then this foundation discredits those that have falsly made it into a group effort (scribes wrote it after him, the sahaba gathered it, then they arranged it, then they burned the copies to cannonize the book into one book- what rubnish!).

Why has this site become the worst? There is no moderation! People not only post nonsense but also fail to provide answers, cluttering the forum. I would rate this site as really poor—one star out of five.

The forum is a very old platform, and most of the debates have moved to other platforms (Discord, Clubhouse, YouTube, etc.). The site and its content are still intact.

Salam Fusion.

That is an excellent, though misleading question.

This argument has been recently formed (a couple of years now) by those who have given up defending the sunnah through the usual "obey God and obey and the messneger" as well as "how do you pray" arguments since those have both been completely refuted.

The question though is very loaded since they are willing now to attack the authenticity of the Quran itself to protect their precious idol (the sunna). They have also gone beyond "how can you trust the Quran if it was preserved by the same narrators of Hadith" with the recent "there is not one Quran - so, using the Quran alone, show us which is the real version!".

As I said - loaded questions.

Firsly, We accept the Quran as being the word of God by what it says and how it says it (that is also how the original recipients accepted it, for it spoke to their hearts and minds 4:82)

Secondly, we believe the Quran was written by the hands of the prohet himself (see 29:48, 85:22)

Thirdly, We believe the Qur'an was arranged by the Prophet through divine inspiration and that this arrangemnt is very deliberate as it scatters the topics throughout the Book - making it difficult to tamper with (see 16:101-102)

Now, if you accept the 3 points above, you will see that the argument that "people" participated in the Qur'an's preservation has no validity. However, what people can claim is that there were "scribes" that were copying the text from the original and that is how the Qur'an spread wide and far.

Did these scribes make errors? Yes, absolutely. That is why we have 7 or 14 versions of the Qur'an that have scribal differences (the "qiraat"). The way the sunnis deal with the Qiraat is to simply say "they are all from God" which is absolutely absurd and lazy thinking (did God say Rome "won" or was "defeated" in 33:2 - for both cannot be correct?). What we can say is that the Qur'an can be corrected by "context" and if the verse supports one over the other, then that is what we accept (e.g. Rome won, then was defeated).

I would also point out that some of our brothers and sisters accept that "19" proves the authenticity and preservation of the text - though I would say that argument works well for all the initialled suras, but not the rest.

In conclusion, people copying a text as it was given to them gives then no authority whatsoever in that text nor in its content (its like giving the printers of Harry Potter authority over its content!).

[CHARTER]

CHARTER

Name. This organization/group shall have the name of "The Nation of Believers" / "أمة المؤمنين" (3:104).

Purpose.
The purpose of this group is to create a "real-life" application of the system of Islam for individuals and families wishing to live their lives according to the way of God alone (9:122, 30:30, 3:79, 3:104).

Methodology.
•   This group accepts the Qur'an as the literal word of God – being the final revelation, revealed in the Arabic tongue (38:84, 33:40, 13:37).
•   This group accepts the Qur'an as the only source of divine law, being fully detailed and complete (4:105, 6:114).
•   This group accepts that the Qur'an was compiled into the current structure of chapters and verses by divine instruction (16:101-102).
•   This group accepts the narratives of the Qur'an as the determination of historic truth (16:36).
•   This group accepts that the context and usage in the Qur'an is what determines the correct meaning (41:44).
•   This group acknowledges that the Qur'an has two types of verses (the "firm" & the "similar") and that the "firm" verses are the "essence" of the Book (3:7).

Responsibility.
•   Members shall be those who agree, openly, to pledge themselves to the ideals contained in this Charter (58:12).
•   Members agree to dedicate their time and energy to the "purpose," and to support it as best they can (49:15).
•   Members of this group shall uphold a high moral character and not engage in any activities outlawed by the Qur'an (58:12)
•   Members of this group undertake to uphold the peace at all times and to support and respect all other members (2:208).
•   Members will be responsible for verifying information themselves (17:36) 
•   Members will present their ideas or comments in a civil manner and maintain the level of decency and tone required by the Quran (31:19, 25:72, 49:10-12).
•   Members agree to be unified and to promote the group over the individual(s) (3:105).

Leadership.
•   The members of the group, through voting, shall elect a "Council of Believers" (42:38)
•   The Council shall not exceed a maximum of 12 members (7:160)
•   The Council members shall serve for fixed period(s), making room for new members to join (58: 11).
•   The Council will take on the responsibility of driving the group's "purpose" mentioned above (23:74).
•   The Council may request the suspension and/or replacement of a member of the Council if found to be in violation of the rules of this Charter.
•   Unless agreed otherwise by the Council, all deliberations and discussions of the Council will be made public to the members (58: . 
•   The Council shall be responsible for managing the affairs of the group—including arranging for funding, media, gatherings (on-line or physical).
•   The Council shall elect a "Chairperson" to serve for a set-period.
•   All decisions of the Council shall be through majority vote. In-case of a tie, the group with whom the Chairman has voted shall prevail.
•   The Council may assign roles and tasks to members of the group to drive the purpose. The Council may also appoint and engage with external parties and agencies as required.
•   The decision(s) of the Council shall be binding on all members (4:59).

Dispute Resolution. Any dispute in the understanding or interpretation of the Quran shall be subject to the guidance of 39:18 which requires taking the "better" of the understandings being presented.

Non-Profit. This group shall have the designation of being "not for profit." Any income received (be that from donations, fees, or sales of goods, etc.) shall be used for the expansion and promotion of the "purpose." 

Amendments. This Charter may be amended by a unanimous vote of the Council. Amendments must be added to the Charter with the designation "amendment" with the clear justification of why the amendment(s) was made.

[work]

Salam.

I don't see anything wrong with the translation of 5:90 being "the devil"

Here is what the verse says: "Intoxicants, Gambling, Altars, and Arrows of chance are foul by the work of the devil"

These things in of themselves are not "foul" - it is the work of the devil than makes them such.

You cannot make the "avoid" to apply to the "foulness" - you can only make it apply to the "devil" or his "work" (or both).

Peace Audanto.

All people can live in peace as long as they adhere to the same laws and rules of the society they live in.

This will be tonight.

https://discord.gg/pFkhNrmaa5

Salam.

I believe messengers will continue to be inspired until the end of our times. Don't know about the 4 you mentioned, but messengers would usually shy away from the limelight as they're more focused on the task.

[s]

Salam,

This may be a trivial post, but I have seen many times the debate on Mohammed being the "last" Prophet, with people implying that Prophet also encompasses "Messenger" and therefore Mohammed is the last Prophet and the last Messenger.

Rather than going through the usual: "prophet and messenger are not the same" argument, I would like to share the below verse which I find ends this discussion once and for all:

"O messengers, eat from what is good, and do good work. I am aware of what you do." (23:51)