Rebuttal to article by Wakas: Disproved once and for all salat=prayer

[Samia]

Salaam IQO

Personally I find a message with different fonts and colours difficult to follow. I feel it is a bit intimidating, as if shouting at me: read this and accept it. I am sure of it!

But again, maybe it is only me.

So, would you please write in a lower voice?

[Wakas]

honor, I am an eyecare professional and I was genuinely curious as to what condition IQO has. Primarily to satisfy my curiousity because it does not fit with what I know and also to offer advice if possible, just like I offered advice to member YankeeDoodle (if anyone recalls him) who was suffering from reduced vision. Advice he found helpful I might add.

It is clear you took my intentions/tone to be other than this. This of course is up to you. I am here for evidence-based discussion so I can improve my understanding and help others if I can along the way, not second guessing someone else's intentions/sincerity/tone etc. I leave you with peace.



IQO, I was able to review your "rebuttal" last night and I will post the response soon. I noticed you used the older version of the article in your "rebuttal", the latest one is here:
http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

[ImamQuranonly]

As Salaamu Alaikum all and Wakas and Samia,

The font issue is partly because of my vision, although I don't wear glasses or contacts.  I have noticed that my eyesight is getting worse for whatever reason.    I am not that old really though.    But I think some of the fonts are larger than I would like them to be.  I will say that different colors, bold, underlined, different sizes and italicized fonts are used to "highlight" certain points that the author wants to stick out more to the reader.  All if not the vast majority of the articles do this on this site.  Just check them out if you are not sure.  Maybe mine are a little more drastic on this site because I originally did these in Microsoft word for convenience, and then tried to just copy them into the posts.  As you all who have been here for a while, or on other forums are aware, when you do this, the font sizes, colors, etc. don't copy over into the post always.  So then it takes me a long time to go through everything and try to reformat it for the post.  After spending all the time to prepare the material, this second process is tedious and gets boring, so this scenario is my excuse!   

I will try to be more conscious of everyone's sensitivities as I post more things, Allah willing.  But I will continue to use tools to "highlight" things just as most articles do.

Wakas, I wasn't aware that there was another version of the article, as I copied that version directly from the site the day before I posted the rebuttal.  I don't know if it is possible, but if you have updated the article, maybe the site should replace the old article with your updated version.  I will read the updated version to see where it differs from the one that I copied from here a few days ago.

I should be finished with the rebuttal for the other articles you did on the subject by tomorrow, Allah willing.  I combined it with a couple of the links that you had on the subject to support your view.  I will post them all as one on here when I finish it, Allah willing.  Of course I am looking forward to your reply.

As Salaamu Alaikum 

[Wakas]

I do not have access to the site you got the article from anymore, thus I cant update it.

[ImamQuranonly]

I do not have access to the site you got the article from anymore, thus I cant update it.

Salaams Wakas bro,

Do you mean this site at Freeminds?  I thought that you were one of the administrators?  I could be wrong.  Just shows how much I know about the site.  Can you request those that maintain the site to change an article that you have authored to reflect updates, once they have put up one of your articles?  It is a curious situation if not.

Just so that you know Wakas, I really do respect and appreciate your intellect and knowledge.  Disagreeing with you about salaat does not mean that I disrepect you in anyway.  I think you have a mind that seeks the truth, and that ingredient very important and rare among the majority of humanity.  Even if we never agree on this subject matter, I believe that we can learn a lot from each other as time passes, Allah willing.

Talk to you soon bro.

As Salaamu Alaikum, 

[Wakas]

peace IQO,

I am not an administrator of this site. I am a moderator on the forum only.

However, I can request Layth to update the article. I will do so in a few weeks perhaps.

And also I do not take your critiquing of my articles as any disrespect to me, however, what I do dislike is if someone attempts to critique but does not stick to an evidence-based discussion, offers mostly opinion, poorly thought out arguments and the worst of all does not properly read/reflect upon my article and thus attempts to disprove points I never even made in my article or assumes things I never even said. These things are easy to avoid if one critically analysises their own arguments. I try to do this on a regular basis.

[ImamQuranonly]

peace IQO,

I am not an administrator of this site. I am a moderator on the forum only.

However, I can request Layth to update the article. I will do so in a few weeks perhaps.

And also I do not take your critiquing of my articles as any disrespect to me, however, what I do dislike is if someone attempts to critique but does not stick to an evidence-based discussion, offers mostly opinion, poorly thought out arguments and the worst of all does not properly read/reflect upon my article and thus attempts to disprove points I never even made in my article or assumes things I never even said. These things are easy to avoid if one critically analysises their own arguments. I try to do this on a regular basis.

As-Salaamu Alaikum Wakas,

I think your assessment of how other people review your material is based on "your opinion" of how you think it should be done.  You can't make all people to utilize the exact same "techniques" as you do in your work.  What is proof to someone else is not to you, and vice versa.  That's just life and the different complexities of different minds and ways of thinking.  I have read your article enough to understand what it means to my mind, regardless of what you may "think" my mind should be perceiving.  This also happens with Al Quran.  Ten people can read the same ayat and get 10 different approaches to the understanding.  That is what this process is all about.

I am still looking forward to your arguments to my rebuttal.  As I said, we may never agree, but hopefully we will learn a thing or two from each other, Allah willing.

As Salaamu Alaikum   

[Wakas]

peace IQO,

Firstly, it seems you may just need prescription glasses to correct your reduced vision. I recommend an eye exam.

I have read your article enough to understand what it means to my mind, regardless of what you may "think" my mind should be perceiving.

Incorrect. Since I am the author of the article, I know exactly what I meant when I stated certain things, thus if a reader (i.e. you) takes it another way, then I can correct them. This is not an identical situation to 'al quran', thus your analogy using 'al quran' is not comparable.

I have attached my response to your "rebuttal" as a .htm file (viewable with any web browser).

[ImamQuranonly]

As Salaamu Alaika Wakas,

peace IQO,

Firstly, it seems you may just need prescription glasses to correct your reduced vision. I recommend an eye exam.

Incorrect. Since I am the author of the article, I know exactly what I meant when I stated certain things, thus if a reader (i.e. you) takes it another way, then I can correct them. This is not an identical situation to 'al quran', thus your analogy using 'al quran' is not comparable.

I have attached my response to your "rebuttal" as a .htm file (viewable with any web browser).

Thanks for your recommendation for an eye exam.

Being the author of an article does not give you carte blanc to determine how what you wrote will be determined to mean for the mind reading it.  Many writers find this to be the case and therefore spend years improving their craft so as the convey the meaning that they would like to get across better.  You obviously can correct a reader by stating what "you intended" something to mean, but that is not always accepted as credible if what "you intended" seems to far away from what you actually wrote.  Nevertheless, these are very small points.

I have just finished reading your response to my rebuttal to your article.  I must say that I was not convinced by anything you rebutted or how you rebutted them.  I can easily show the faults with most if not all of the arguments that you have made.  I think you may want to implore Allah to open your mind to the "spirit" of the Quran and not just the linguistical grammatical analysis only as your basis for debate.  You are missing a big portion of the "guidance" from Al Quran when you do this.  When a person does this, then they are only engaging the Quran with their "mind" and their "heart" has not yet even begun to comprehend the guidance given.

I will write a response to your rebuttal soon, it will be time consuming and I'm trying to get the rest of the books sections up for those who DO believe that Allah has ordered us to perform a "ritual" prayer.  This will be my first priority.  It would be nice if you can take the time to format your response and post it here as well so that all can see without having to download it.  I think people can clearly then make their assessment of which argument they are more in line to follow and believe.  Until next time....

As Salaamu Alaikum 

[Wakas]

peace IQO,

It would be nice if you can take the time to format your response and post it here as well so that all can see without having to download it.

It is like "downloading" a webpage. Those who wish to read it can click on the link below:
[link edited did not display correctly 12/5/19]

I must say that I was not convinced by anything you rebutted or how you rebutted them.  I can easily show the faults with most if not all of the arguments that you have made.  I think you may want to implore Allah to open your mind to the "spirit" of the Quran and not just the linguistical grammatical analysis only as your basis for debate.  You are missing a big portion of the "guidance" from Al Quran when you do this.  When a person does this, then they are only engaging the Quran with their "mind" and their "heart" has not yet even begun to comprehend the guidance given.

Interesting, but I prefer evidence-based discussion, not subjective opinion.

I think people can clearly then make their assessment of which argument they are more in line to follow and believe.

I agree wholeheartedly.


Look forward to your response, however I must point out I am unlikely to reply to any points that are not evidence-based.