How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

[mmmm]

To whomever posted this topic:
If you weren't socially programmed to think that getting married is long process and you need dozens of years to get to know someone before you marry them (if at all) and you should get married in your late 20 or 30, you would probably already be married and wouldn't be looking for justification for immorality.
My personal opinion is get married young and there would be no need for many kinds of question regarding dating or any other similar topic I see posted on this forum.

[t-hamzei]

Peace t -hamzei
No disrespect intended but did your mother treaty you badly ,you seem to have a great hatred for women sorry if I have caused any offence.

Peace Salim

Salim,

not at all, we were speaking about the situation getting out of hand in Australia with non-muslim women becoming too dominant, being given management roles, having too many sex partners...and muslim women taking some, even if the slightest bad example from the culture here and not realising it, not realising the differences between men and women.

[SarahY]

Emil
Some people do not understand the nature of "conversation".

t-hamzei
if some women are more successful than some men that is not necessarily "bad".

4:32 (Asad) Hence, do not covet the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on some of you than on others. Men shall have a benefit from what they earn, and women shall have a benefit from what they earn. Ask, therefore, God [to give you] out of His bounty: behold, God has indeed full knowledge of everything

Both sexes, men and women can adopt bad examples, the sole blame is not on the women. The blame is on men and women who choose to commit to bad acts.

33:35 (Asad) VERILY, for all men and women who have sur?rendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves [before God], and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women,  and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remember God unceasingly: for [all of] them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.

peace.

[Emil]

Emil
Some people do not understand the nature of "conversation"

True dat.......I will leave you to battle.......sorry, have this conversation with our brother.......u are a lot more patient than me.....

[IAMOP]

24:31 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.


I looked at it again. It is on the list.
One possible meaning of Ma malekat aymunkum= fiance, girlfriend concubine etc.

Peace

I still do not agree with 'sex outside of marriage' esp. promiscuity. On the other hand I do have reason to believe that MMA could refer to fiances/"girlfriends".


However the NUMBER ONE rule is that the relationship is entirely in the open and you go towards them with your wealth. This is explicit, anything else is purely transgression and no amount of rationalisation or reading into words will change this.

[Earthdom]

24:31 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.


I looked at it again. It is on the list.
One possible meaning of Ma malekat aymunkum= fiance, girlfriend concubine etc.

Peace

Ma malekat aymunkum can translated "posses their right hand"

Posses their right hand is allogarical setence and its reffering to "slave/maid" if you read the whole ayah in Quran
Word "hand" means employee, this means  another "hand" of the boss to accomplish some works.

Quran itself contains some allogarical words/sentences, like verse 2:188 "... takulu (eat) your property..." this not means literally you eat your property.

In verse 23:6, if you look on entire ayah in the Quran again this slave means slaves who was liberated and already married with you

Quran never mentioned of any girlfriend-boyfriends things.
Slave in the Quran actually was slavery tradition in Arab in the past time and no courtship tradition in Arab in that time too.

We also ordered to meet non mahram woman with hijab/barrier : 33:53-5, also ordered to protect our wild gaze 24:30-1 37:48

[nimnimak_11]

To whomever posted this topic:
If you weren't socially programmed to think that getting married is long process and you need dozens of years to get to know someone before you marry them (if at all) and you should get married in your late 20 or 30, you would probably already be married and wouldn't be looking for justification for immorality.
My personal opinion is get married young and there would be no need for many kinds of question regarding dating or any other similar topic I see posted on this forum.

It's not a question of whether marriage is a short or long process. It's a question of whether marriage is necessary for engaging in sexual activity. From the thread I concluded that marriage is primarily for the sake of starting a family. Sex isn't for the sake of starting a family. So I don't see the need for marriage if all that was sought was sex.

[nimnimak_11]

I still do not agree with 'sex outside of marriage' esp. promiscuity. On the other hand I do have reason to believe that MMA could refer to fiances/"girlfriends".

If you take MMA to encompass finances or girlfriends, where is the prohibition on sexual activity with the MMA?
More importantly if you were to pin it down from A Quranic perspective, what constitutes sex? As in at what point could it be said that a couple have gone too far with regards to their physical interactions with each other?

In trying to answer the second question I came to the realisation that there is nothing in the Quran that conveys this sort of guideline. The only implication I got from the Quran is don't have kids until after marriage. Don't have illegal sex (zina) don't engage in lewdness (fahisha) such as sexual acts that involve degradation, fetishism and so on.

Given that you can have kids without having sex (sperm donors for example) I thought it necessary that the Quran's message regarding the purpose of marriage is for the sake of having kids rather than for the sake of sex.

So in my opinion, this answers how far one can go in terms of physical interactions with one's legitimate unmarried partner:

So long as the odds of having a child is 0%, and so long as the physical interaction involved is not lewd or illegal (for example someone who under the legal age to have sex) then the Quran's guidelines have been met.

[nimnimak_11]

Ma malekat aymunkum can translated "posses their right hand"

Posses their right hand is allogarical setence and its reffering to "slave/maid" if you read the whole ayah in Quran
Word "hand" means employee, this means  another "hand" of the boss to accomplish some works.

Quran itself contains some allogarical words/sentences, like verse 2:188 "... takulu (eat) your property..." this not means literally you eat your property.

In verse 23:6, if you look on entire ayah in the Quran again this slave means slaves who was liberated and already married with you

Quran never mentioned of any girlfriend-boyfriends things.
Slave in the Quran actually was slavery tradition in Arab in the past time and no courtship tradition in Arab in that time too.

We also ordered to meet non mahram woman with hijab/barrier : 33:53-5, also ordered to protect our wild gaze 24:30-1 37:48

I don't think slave/maid makes sense with regards to Quran's overall usage of the phrase Ma Malekat aymunkum. I also don't think it to morally make sense for us to understand MMA as slave/maid. Why would it be ok to have sex with our maids/slaves but not our girlfriend with whom there is mutual consent?

33:53-55 is about the prophet and his wives only. It doesn't make a distinction between mahram and non-mahram women as far as I can see.

[IAMOP]

If you take MMA to encompass finances or girlfriends, where is the prohibition on sexual activity with the MMA?
More importantly if you were to pin it down from A Quranic perspective, what constitutes sex? As in at what point could it be said that a couple have gone too far with regards to their physical interactions with each other?

In trying to answer the second question I came to the realisation that there is nothing in the Quran that conveys this sort of guideline. The only implication I got from the Quran is don't have kids until after marriage. Don't have illegal sex (zina) don't engage in lewdness (fahisha) such as sexual acts that involve degradation, fetishism and so on.

Given that you can have kids without having sex (sperm donors for example) I thought it necessary that the Quran's message regarding the purpose of marriage is for the sake of having kids rather than for the sake of sex.

So in my opinion, this answers how far one can go in terms of physical interactions with one's legitimate unmarried partner:

So long as the odds of having a child is 0%, and so long as the physical interaction involved is not lewd or illegal (for example someone who under the legal age to have sex) then the Quran's guidelines have been met.

I have not seen anything in the quran that talks about when sexual interaction may begin between a couple.

However there is a clear sign here:

4:20 (Asad) But if you desire to give up a wife and to take another in her stead, do not take away anything of what you have given the first one, however much it may have been. [21] Would you, perchance, take it away by slandering her and thus committing a manifest sin? [22]

So we see that surely sexuality and finance exchange is identical in the eyes of God, to the point that taking the finance out of a sexual relationship is considered a grave wrong, and consequently a kind of retroactive zina.


Perhaps fiancee relationship can count as MMA. But the key is that money must change hands from the man to the woman, always. So a person cannot hold a relationship or contract as such without finance, as the finance is what actually makes that contract valid.


I do not agree with it being to do with children as the punishment on Zina is for illicit sex with no doubts, not children - a pregnancy from zina would of course likely dissolve the need for four witnesses. Contraception is not available to everyone, so are these to be left out? Of course, this is not the strongest argument against it as surely there are many commands of God which only apply here and there to relevant people.



Whatever is the case, we maintain that:

1.) Relationship must entirely be in the open
2.) Wealth must change hands from male to female
3.) Contract/witnesses is necessary, to prevent accusations of zina