Salam to All,
Please can anyone explain this Ayat to me. What are these two death and two lives
They said, "Our Lord, twice You have put us to death and twice You have brought us to life; now we have confessed our sins, is there any way out?" 40:11
God bless
Peace centi50.
It means at the resurrection(third life cycle) they will say they had two life cycles before and still want another chance at redeeming themselves!
They were alive then put to death then made alive/born/created again for another life then put to death again(a second time) then resurrected to face the music.
Like this verse says also:
2:28
كَيفَ تَكفُرونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُم أَموٰتًا فَأَحيٰكُم ثُمَّ يُميتُكُم ثُمَّ يُحييكُم ثُمَّ إِلَيهِ تُرجَعونَ
How can you disbelieve in God when you were dead and He gave you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life, then to Him you ultimately return?
(2 deaths experienced before the final return)
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: centi50 on September 26, 2018, 08:51:13 AM
Salam to All,
Please can anyone explain this Ayat to me. What are these two death and two lives
They said, "Our Lord, twice You have put us to death and twice You have brought us to life; now we have confessed our sins, is there any way out?" 40:11
God bless
Here is the translation by Parvez Ahmad:
(11) They would say, ?O Our Rabb, twice You have caused us to die and twice You have brought us to life. (Before we were born into this world we were dead and You gave us life; then we died and again You have given us life ? 2:28, 37:58, 44:56.) However, life in jahannam is worse than death (14:17, 20:74, 35:36, 87:13). We now confess our guilt. As such, is there any way out of this suffering so that we can also enjoy the pleasantness of real life??
Source:http://tolueislam.org/exposition-of-the-holy-quran-40-al-momin-g-a-parwez/
قَالُواْ رَبَّنَآ أَمَتَّنَا ٱثۡنَتَيۡنِ وَأَحۡيَيۡتَنَا ٱثۡنَتَيۡنِ فَٱعۡتَرَفۡنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلۡ إِلَىٰ خُرُوجٍ۬ مِّن سَبِيلٍ۬
They said, "Our Lord, twice You have put us to death and twice You have brought us to life; now we have confessed our sins, is there any way out?"
The way I understand it is that this dialogue is when they are facing judgement and its result. First death was the worldly death and second death is punishment of hell as they will not be able to remove it and have further progress in next life. That is why they are accepting their crimes and asking for a way out.
Salam to Novice and All,
When was the first death, second death, first life and second life.
God bless
Quote from: centi50 on September 27, 2018, 02:29:18 AM
Salam to Novice and All,
When was the first death, second death, first life and second life.
God bless
Salaam centi50
First life could be the life we are spending in this world and second life could be life of hereafter.
Two deaths could either be:
our state before coming into this world and second death is when we leave this world OR
first death is when we leave this world and second death is the life of punishment of hell.
Quote from: Novice on September 27, 2018, 02:49:23 AM
Salaam centi50
First life could be the life we are spending in this world and second life could be life of hereafter.
Two deaths could either be:
our state before coming into this world and second death is when we leave this world OR
first death is when we leave this world and second death is the life of punishment of hell.
Thank you brother Novice for replies.
So is there Quranic ayat pointing to our first life and second life.
First death and second Death?
God bless
Quote from: centi50 on September 26, 2018, 08:51:13 AM
Salam to All,
Please can anyone explain this Ayat to me. What are these two death and two lives
They said, "Our Lord, twice You have put us to death and twice You have brought us to life; now we have confessed our sins, is there any way out?" 40:11
God bless
قَالُوا رَبَّنَا أَمَتَّنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ وَأَحْيَيْتَنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ
فَاعْتَرَفْنَا بِذُنُوبِنَافَهَلْ إِلَىٰ خُرُوجٍ مِّن سَبِيلٍ
Speakers and the Listener know the fact. Speakers priortized causing death twice. Death is caused to a living entity. And that entity is firstly given life from the state of matter. Second life can be given to a dead person. They delayed the fact of giving life twice. And mentioned a past event of second life in the following clause.
The second sentence is dependent clause with particle Fa which relates to cause and effect,
When they had confessed their sins - refer 23:100
These are the people who are destined to Hell Prison. They used to say there is only one death 44:34
In contrast the People destined Paradise had only one death -- refer 44:56
Then please read the rule in 45:21.
In contrast please see the statement of people of Paradise in 37:59; they experienced only one death.
Peace All.
This is crystal clear:2:28
كَيفَ تَكفُرونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُم أَموٰتًا فَأَحيٰكُم ثُمَّ يُميتُكُم ثُمَّ يُحييكُم ثُمَّ إِلَيهِ تُرجَعونَ
Kuntum Amwatan ,----we were dead the first time means we were alive before that. Otherwise we would have been non existent. We die only if we were alive prior to death. Hence we had a first life and we were put to death.
Then we were made alive again (as humans)a second time---Fa Ahyakum--- Thumma yumeetukkum... Then we will be made alive a third time ----Resurrection.
is this not a logical interpretation of the verse?
GOD bless
Peace
When a living dies he is called or becomes: (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00086.%20Maut%20Meem%20Waw%20Ta%20death%20matter/57.gif) and plural (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00086.%20Maut%20Meem%20Waw%20Ta%20death%20matter/58.gif)
Man is given life from matter.
Quote from: good logic on September 27, 2018, 02:29:10 PM
Peace All.
This is crystal clear:2:28
كَيفَ تَكفُرونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُم أَموٰتًا فَأَحيٰكُم ثُمَّ يُميتُكُم ثُمَّ يُحييكُم ثُمَّ إِلَيهِ تُرجَعونَ
Kuntum Amwatan ,----we were dead the first time means we were alive before that. Otherwise we would have been non existent. We die only if we were alive prior to death. Hence we had a first life and we were put to death.
Kuntum Amwatan...you used to be dead -- does not say first time or we were alive before that.
Our creation was started from inorganic materials which are dead from our perspective. So that dead matrial was changed into life then after lifetime this live person becomes dead and then will be raised again.
Salaam
Quote from: centi50 on September 27, 2018, 03:41:33 AM
Thank you brother Novice for replies.
So is there Quranic ayat pointing to our first life and second life.
First death and second Death?
God bless
Please see ayats quoted by brother Mazhar and reflect. People of hell will have a second death when they suffer in hell.
People of paradise will have one death in this world and then they will live in paradise as long as our Rubb wishes.
Salaam
Quote from: Novice on September 27, 2018, 04:57:13 PM
Please see ayats quoted by brother Mazhar and reflect. People of hell will have a second death when they suffer in hell.
People of paradise will have one death in this world and then they will live in paradise as long as our Rubb wishes.
Salaam
Please reconsider, they said they have already experienced two deaths. And then saying that last time in second life we had confessed the guilt, and then ask whether there is now escape.
Quote from: Mazhar on September 27, 2018, 05:03:50 PM
Please reconsider, they said they have already experienced two deaths. And then saying that last time in second life we had confessed the guilt, and then ask whether there is now escape.
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُنَادَوۡنَ لَمَقۡتُ ٱللَّهِ أَكۡبَرُ مِن مَّقۡتِكُمۡ أَنفُسَڪُمۡ إِذۡ تُدۡعَوۡنَ إِلَى ٱلۡإِيمَـٰنِ فَتَكۡفُرُونَ (١٠
Surely those who rejected, are/will be called that Allah's dislike is greater than your dislike. When you were invited to the imaan then you rejected.....So this ayat is referring to time when they will be given life after their death in this world.
قَالُواْ رَبَّنَآ أَمَتَّنَا ٱثۡنَتَيۡنِ وَأَحۡيَيۡتَنَا ٱثۡنَتَيۡنِ فَٱعۡتَرَفۡنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلۡ إِلَىٰ خُرُوجٍ۬ مِّن سَبِيلٍ۬ (١١
They said our Rabb you give us death twice and gave us life twice, So we accept our misdeeds so is there any exit from it.
Here it seems that second death is their life in hell which is named as death and that is why they are asking for an exit from this situation.
(There are many times when situation of future life is told in past tense.)
ذَٲلِكُم بِأَنَّهُ ۥۤ إِذَا دُعِىَ ٱللَّهُ وَحۡدَهُ ۥ ڪَفَرۡتُمۡۖ وَإِن يُشۡرَكۡ بِهِۦ تُؤۡمِنُواْۚ فَٱلۡحُكۡمُ لِلَّهِ ٱلۡعَلِىِّ ٱلۡكَبِيرِ
That is because when you were invited to Allah alone you rejected but when He was associated you believed so now the Command is for Allah the high the great.
This ayat further give me understanding that their second death is their stay in hell because of their rejection.
peace guys,
i was looking for this verse may b its reffering to reincarnation ?
Quote from: Novice on September 27, 2018, 05:41:52 PM
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُنَادَوۡنَ لَمَقۡتُ ٱللَّهِ أَكۡبَرُ مِن مَّقۡتِكُمۡ أَنفُسَڪُمۡ إِذۡ تُدۡعَوۡنَ إِلَى ٱلۡإِيمَـٰنِ فَتَكۡفُرُونَ (١٠
Surely those who rejected, are/will be called that Allah's dislike is greater than your dislike. When you were invited to the imaan then you rejected.....So this ayat is referring to time when they will be given life after their death in this world.
قَالُواْ رَبَّنَآ أَمَتَّنَا ٱثۡنَتَيۡنِ وَأَحۡيَيۡتَنَا ٱثۡنَتَيۡنِ فَٱعۡتَرَفۡنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلۡ إِلَىٰ خُرُوجٍ۬ مِّن سَبِيلٍ۬ (١١
They said our Rabb you give us death twice and gave us life twice, So we accept our misdeeds so is there any exit from it.
Here it seems that second death is their life in hell which is named as death and that is why they are asking for an exit from this situation.
(There are many times when situation of future life is told in past tense.)
ذَٲلِكُم بِأَنَّهُ ۥۤ إِذَا دُعِىَ ٱللَّهُ وَحۡدَهُ ۥ ڪَفَرۡتُمۡۖ وَإِن يُشۡرَكۡ بِهِۦ تُؤۡمِنُواْۚ فَٱلۡحُكۡمُ لِلَّهِ ٱلۡعَلِىِّ ٱلۡكَبِيرِ
That is because when you were invited to Allah alone you rejected but when He was associated you believed so now the Command is for Allah the high the great.
This ayat further give me understanding that their second death is their stay in hell because of their rejection.
Yes the Hereafter events are mentioned in Future Perfect to emphasize certainty as if it is history.
In the First Ayah they are reminded what they were habitually doing in their worldly life.
Certainly those who had disavowed will be reminded of their state?
"Indeed in the judgment of Allah it was more inappropriate and abominable act than the irritating vile of you people which your selves felt when you were invited towards the Belief, whereupon you kept refuting it". [40:10]
Responding to it they state how they were already dealt with for their conduct
They said, "Our Sustainer Lord, You earlier did cause us death on two occasions when You had given us life twice;
Thereby, we had confessed our sins [when we had requested to be sent back having been given second life promising that we will now perform deeds of righteous import-23:100]
Thereby, is there any way of getting out?" [from that we have placed ourselves] [40:11]
The answer to the fact or subtle complaint of giving twice life and twice death is given in the dependent clause beginning with Demonstrative pronoun:
[They are told that two deaths and two lives was for reason of their non belief in singularity] "This was for the reason that you people refused to accept when Allah was mentioned as "He is the One"
But if a partner was joined with Him you believed that (duality).
Therefore, the decision/command (regarding the way out) is for Allah, the Exalted, the Greatest." [40:12]
Peace Novice.
You mean our bodies that we are coupled with as humans were created as follows? Quote:
Our creation was started from inorganic materials which are dead from our perspective. So that dead matrial was changed into life then after lifetime this live person becomes dead and then will be raised again.
I believe originally, before our first creation we were "nothing", no matter ,no materials, Zilch(Kun Fayakun):
19:67
أَوَلا يَذكُرُ الإِنسٰنُ أَنّا خَلَقنٰهُ مِن قَبلُ وَلَم يَكُ شَيـًٔا
19:67
Did the human being forget that we created him Min Kablu, and he was nothing?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam to All,
So does this mean we exsisted before being born here in this world?
God bless
Peace centi50.
For me it can only mean that we had a life before this one.
If ,quote: Kuntum Amwatan...you used to be dead -- does not say first time or we were alive before that.
The word "Amwatan" would not have been used , as Mawt only follows a life. You could not die if you were not alive .
If it means we were materials or mud or other ,then we were not dead!!!
Also as I pointed out ,there is a clear verse(19:67) that says we started out from "NOTHING". This must have been before the first life.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: Mazhar on September 27, 2018, 04:38:58 PM
When a living dies he is called or becomes: (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00086.%20Maut%20Meem%20Waw%20Ta%20death%20matter/57.gif) and plural (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00086.%20Maut%20Meem%20Waw%20Ta%20death%20matter/58.gif)
Man is given life from matter.
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/039.%20Az%20Zumar/39.30PP.gif)
Statues are made of matter
وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
أَمْوَاتٌ غَيْرُ أَحْيَاءٍ
Peace Mazhar.
Where did you get "Statues" from the verse:وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
The verse is talking about calling on "others" like Jesus ,Mohammed, saints, other creations as "gods beside GOD Alone".
And these, gods like Jesus, Mohammed...etc are dead not alive
That verse is not talking about the statues but about the humans/other gods they represent for those who idolise them!!!
GOD bless you..
Peace
Quote from: good logic on September 28, 2018, 01:23:00 PM
Peace Mazhar.
Where did you get "Statues" from the verse:وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
The verse is talking about calling on "others" like Jesus ,Mohammed, saints, other creations as "gods beside GOD Alone".
And these, gods like Jesus, Mohammed...etc are dead not alive
That verse is not talking about the statues but about the humans/other gods they represent for those who idolise them!!!
GOD bless you..
Peace
Please read again the Ayah fullt, the characteristic of those whom people call.
Honestly brother mazhar, you will argue even with statues!
I get you. The verse is about statues because you say so even if it has nothing to do with statues.
I am wasting my time ,it is like talking to statues,
Common brother Mazhar,! The Aya is not talking about statues. and you know it. Dead prophets and dead partners with GOD are the subject.
Anyway, you may carry on with the argument, like you always do, but please do not get into the grammar, verbs, characteristics, adjectives...of the verse. You will lose me otherwise.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on September 28, 2018, 02:30:20 AM
Peace Novice.
You mean our bodies that we are coupled with as humans were created as follows? Quote:
Our creation was started from inorganic materials which are dead from our perspective. So that dead matrial was changed into life then after lifetime this live person becomes dead and then will be raised again.
I believe originally, before our first creation we were "nothing", no matter ,no materials, Zilch(Kun Fayakun):
19:67
أَوَلا يَذكُرُ الإِنسٰنُ أَنّا خَلَقنٰهُ مِن قَبلُ وَلَم يَكُ شَيـًٔا
19:67
Did the human being forget that we created him Min Kablu, and he was nothing?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace GL
4:82 أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا
Do they not reflect on Quran, had it been from other than Allah they would have found many differences in it.
Quran does not contradict itself. It has given us information on how we were evolved. To cite few examples:
3:59 إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَۖ خَلَقَهُ ۥ مِن تُرَابٍ۬ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ ۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ
......He created him from dust......
6:2 هُوَ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُم مِّن طِينٍ۬ ثُمَّ قَضَىٰٓ أَجَلاً۬ۖ وَأَجَلٌ۬ مُّسَمًّى عِندَهُ ۥۖ ثُمَّ أَنتُمۡ تَمۡتَرُونَ
He who created you all from mud......
7:12 قَالَ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَلَّا تَسۡجُدَ إِذۡ أَمَرۡتُكَۖ قَالَ أَنَا۟ خَيۡرٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ خَلَقۡتَنِى مِن نَّارٍ۬ وَخَلَقۡتَهُ ۥ مِن طِينٍ۬.......You created him from mud
15:26 وَلَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ مِن صَلۡصَـٰلٍ۬ مِّنۡ حَمَإٍ۬ مَّسۡنُونٍ۬
We created the man from sounding decayed clay
and on and on...
Now coming to your cited ayat:
19:67 أَوَلَا يَذۡڪُرُ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ أَنَّا خَلَقۡنَـٰهُ مِن قَبۡلُ وَلَمۡ يَكُ شَيۡـًٔ۬اDoes the insaan not recall that indeed We created him before and he was nothing.
Thay ayat does not say he was created out of nothing rather it says he was nothing before creation.
Hope I made myself clear.
Quote from: Novice on September 28, 2018, 03:22:40 PM
Peace GL
4:82 أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا
Do they not reflect on Quran, had it been from other than Allah they would have found many differences in it.
Quran does not contradict itself. It has given us information on how we were evolved. To cite few examples:
3:59 إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَۖ خَلَقَهُ ۥ مِن تُرَابٍ۬ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ ۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ
......He created him from dust......
6:2 هُوَ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُم مِّن طِينٍ۬ ثُمَّ قَضَىٰٓ أَجَلاً۬ۖ وَأَجَلٌ۬ مُّسَمًّى عِندَهُ ۥۖ ثُمَّ أَنتُمۡ تَمۡتَرُونَ
He who created you all from mud......
7:12 قَالَ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَلَّا تَسۡجُدَ إِذۡ أَمَرۡتُكَۖ قَالَ أَنَا۟ خَيۡرٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ خَلَقۡتَنِى مِن نَّارٍ۬ وَخَلَقۡتَهُ ۥ مِن طِينٍ۬
.......You created him from mud
15:26 وَلَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ مِن صَلۡصَـٰلٍ۬ مِّنۡ حَمَإٍ۬ مَّسۡنُونٍ۬
We created the man from sounding decayed clay
and on and on...
Now coming to your cited ayat:
19:67 أَوَلَا يَذۡڪُرُ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ أَنَّا خَلَقۡنَـٰهُ مِن قَبۡلُ وَلَمۡ يَكُ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا
Does the insaan not recall that indeed We created him before and he was nothing.
Thay ayat does not say he was created out of nothing rather it says he was nothing before creation.
Hope I made myself clear.
Very good, very clear.
The details of the raw material are explicitly mentioned. I have compiled them, and analysed the words describing them.
Human Being - the Blue eyed of created realm
Introduction
Man is the cause behind the creation of physical realm.
In English Frame Index the Creation, Create physical artwork, Create representation, Intentionally create is defined: "The Creator creates a new entity, the Created entity, possibly out of Components"; "A Creator creates an artifact that is typically an iconic Representation of an actual or imagined entity or event. The Representation may also be evocative of an idea while not based on resemblance"; A Creator produces a physical object which is to serve as a Representation of an actual or imagined entity or event, the Represented".
In Arabic the semantic frame Creation is embedded in Root: خ ل ق. Ibn Faris [died-1005] in his famous lexicon: مقاييس اللغة stated about this Root:
الخاء واللام والقاف أصلان: أحدهما تقدير الشيء، والآخر مَلاسَة الشيء
That it signifies the act of determining the measures and proportionality of a thing to other things, and then smoothening of the object.
Its general perception and meanings as creation are well known. The basic perception is that of the idea and intention of giving existence to the intended object. Thus the thing is created and exists firstly in Abstract Realm before it takes existence in the Physical Realm.
The words that stem from this Root are result oriented. The irreducible semantic features of this Root are:
(1) A living Who is the creator of the object;
(2) The will - decision taken by the living to create;
(3) The purpose the Creator has in mind to create the object;
(4) For what or for whom it is meant;
(5) Idea - blue print - determination of measures and proportionality of the thing to other things that creates interrelationships before the object takes existence;
(6) The span of time it will continue to exist or live.
(7) Assigning a name to the object for its cognition.
The first occurrence of the word "creation" is about Man's creation, reflecting the honour he has in the physical realm, though he was made to emerge in physical form when all arrangements commensurate to his status and security were set in place:
http://haqeeqat.pk/Human%20being.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Human%20being.htm)
Quote from: good logic on September 28, 2018, 01:23:00 PM
Peace Mazhar.
Where did you get "Statues" from the verse:وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
The verse is talking about calling on "others" like Jesus ,Mohammed, saints, other creations as "gods beside GOD Alone".
And these, gods like Jesus, Mohammed...etc are dead not alive
That verse is not talking about the statues but about the humans/other gods they represent for those who idolise them!!!
GOD bless you..
Peace
Everything you may have might be good, minus logic. Please study the whole Qur'aan you will find nowhere it is alleged what you say. Just check يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ you will find the names of gods besides Allah and they are hand sculpted idols, statutes.
مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ Prepositional Phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase occurs 71 times. Ayahs where it occurs are mentioned here:
http://haqeeqat.pk/208.MinDooniAllahe.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/208.MinDooniAllahe.htm) Pl study them in context, Allah willing confusion will be over.
إِنَّمَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ أَوْثَانًا وَتَخْلُقُونَ إِفْكًا ۚ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَمْلِكُونَ لَكُمْ رِزْقًا فَابْتَغُوا عِندَ اللَّهِ الرِّزْقَ وَاعْبُدُوهُ وَاشْكُرُوا لَهُ ۖ إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ
Peace Novice.
Indeed Qoran does not contradict itself. So this here, quote:
Thay ayat does not say he was created out of nothing rather it says he was nothing before creation.
How can this not contradict your ayat about creating the human from Teen,Turab...?
Are these materials nothing? Remember "Chaiian" in Arabic means Zero things. So the human was Teen, turab, water...But not zero thing?
Also when did this happen(7:112)?
We may not have existed as humans before, but as souls(with other coupling body) we certainly have. Just like after the resurrection, our souls will be coupled with something else. i.e we will not be humans in this dying body!
Questions to ponder:
What is the original sin? What sin did you yourself commit to be given a trial here as human?
Why has GOD created humans to live on earth with a massive universe?
What is the meaning of(38: 67-74)?
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace Mazhar.
I am surprised at your understanding of this:
إِنَّمَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ أَوْثَانًا وَتَخْلُقُونَ إِفْكًا إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَمْلِكُونَ لَكُمْ رِزْقًا فَابْتَغُوا عِندَ اللَّهِ الرِّزْقَ وَاعْبُدُوهُ ...
GOD is giving you an example here. The verse is saying following /idolising others is like following the statues you make of them/things that do not think/ ,and GOD even says elsewhere in Qoran it is like following/idolising nothing. NO benefit from it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 03:14:50 AM
Peace Mazhar.
I am surprised at your understanding of this:
إِنَّمَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ أَوْثَانًا وَتَخْلُقُونَ إِفْكًا إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَمْلِكُونَ لَكُمْ رِزْقًا فَابْتَغُوا عِندَ اللَّهِ الرِّزْقَ وَاعْبُدُوهُ ...
GOD is giving you an example here. The verse is saying following /idolising others is like following the statues you make of them/things that do not think/ ,and GOD even says elsewhere in Qoran it is like following/idolising nothing. NO benefit from it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
قَالَ أَتَعْبُدُونَ مَا تَنْحِتُونَوَاللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَمَا تَعْمَلُونَ
Salaam GL
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Remember "Chaiian" in Arabic means Zero things.
The root for the noun "Chaiian" is ش ي أ which means "to wish". Please share your Arabic source which says "Chaiian" means Zero thing.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Also when did this happen(7:112)?
I guess brother you are referring to 7:172 which has been happening all the times in human history and will continue to happen.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
We may not have existed as humans before, but as souls(with other coupling body) we certainly have. Just like after the resurrection, our souls will be coupled with something else. i.e we will not be humans in this dying body!
What is the proof for your above statement brother.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Questions to ponder:
What is the original sin? What sin did you yourself commit to be given a trial here as human?
There is no concept of original sin in Quran. There is no trial for humans here rather it is an opportunity given to us to give "zaka" to our "Nafs".
Brother lets clear above points for our benefit.
Peace Mazhar.
People make statues to represent other "gods" ,
Exactly the same meaning as the verse before brother! مَا تَنْحِتُونَ just represents the "gods" they idolise.
You should know this ,Hindus do this with many gods.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:07:14 AM
Peace Mazhar.
People make statues to represent other "gods" ,
Exactly the same meaning as the verse before brother! مَا تَنْحِتُونَ just represents the "gods" they idolise.
You should know this ,Hindus do this with many gods.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Then you may have also read what they idolize are imaginary names, not real names which you keep mentioning as idols.
They carved stones, gave them a name and declared them as gods besides Allah and started worshiping them.
Peace Novice
1-So "Lam Yukun Chaian" means he was not what he wished?
In Arabic it means "He was nothing/zero"
Like "Wa Ma MIn Chaiin" means everything. Surely not wishes?
"Yachau" is to wish. Are you sure you are not mixing up words?
2-Sorry yes(7:172). My understanding is different. I will elaborate at the end of the last point.
3-Humans means determined time. The body rots. After the resurrection Earth and the universe will be changed. We will be changed to be accommodated in a different domain. That is the message from Qoran.
Or are you expecting to stay human and repeat the cycle? "Wa Zawajnahum " It means we will be coupled with a new body" it does not mean giving us virgin spouses. There will be no reproduction.
4-So who is this verse(43:5) addressed to first?:أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
And why are the addressed "musrifeen"?
It is this concept in Qoran I was referring to as "original sin"
Coming back to 7:172, in my opinion it refers to the time of 38:67 and before we were made humans.. GOD has made this particular covenant with every human .
Also this life is a trial(yabluakum) :67:2 الَّذى خَلَقَ المَوتَ وَالحَيوٰةَ لِيَبلُوَكُم أَيُّكُم أَحسَنُ عَمَلًا وَهُوَ العَزيزُ الغَفورُ
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace Mazhar.
You say, quote:
They carved stones, gave them a name and declared them as gods besides Allah and started worshiping them.
So you acknowledge that people make statues to represent their "god". Hence they idolise/follow their god. The statues are there because what they idolise are dead ,not with them.
The stones have no meaning on their own, The verses with "taabudoon" are meant for the "represented gods".
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:50:36 AM
Peace Mazhar.
You say, quote:
They carved stones, gave them a name and declared them as gods besides Allah and started worshiping them.
So you acknowledge that people make statues to represent their "god". Hence they idolise/follow their god. The statues are there because what they idolise are dead ,not with them.
The stones have no meaning on their own, The verses with "taabudoon" are meant for the "represented gods".
GOD bless you.
Peace.
They "represent" none. These are no more stones. They are personified by giving them a imaginative names and are declared they are gods. When they see or worship it they have no other image in their heads except it. Thereby, they represent none else.
Peace Mazhar.
How can a statue not represent someone? It even looks human, so what you say reflects what I keep saying to you.
You want it your way and you will keep saying so.
As far as I can see and say, we have reached the end of the circle.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Al-A'raf 7:172
وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنۢ بَنِىٓ ءَادَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰٓ أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْۖ قَالُوا۟ بَلَىٰۛ شَهِدْنَآۛ أَن تَقُولُوا۟ يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَٰمَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَٰفِلِينَ
And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."
get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
Peace Mazhar.
How can a statue not represent someone? It even looks human, so what you say reflects what I keep saying to you.
You want it your way and you will keep saying so.
As far as I can see and say, we have reached the end of the circle.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
What you name are real names. While statute gods are given hypothetical names that is why they represent no further image. I don't know why not you get this simple thing.
Brother Mazhar, the statues are going to disown their followers on the day of judgement?
Jesus, Mohammed ...Those humans ,Malaika, Jinns(No stones or statues!!) are going to disown those who idolised them.
"Yakfuroona Bishirkikum" "Wala Unabbiuka mithlu Khabir".
I have said all I have to say on this issue.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
1-So "Lam Yukun Chaian" means he was not what he wished?
No. "Lam Yukun Chaian" means he was nothing.
Past tense verb from root ش ي أ is Sh'aa which means "he wished" and present tense is yasha'u which means "he wishes/will wish".
شَيْئًا is a noun from this root which means thing, or matter, or issue or affair. I leave it to you to figure out how root meaning are reflected in this noun.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
In Arabic it means "He was nothing/zero"
Correct he was nothing before its creation. It does not mean that he was created from nothing. Qur'an informs us that he was created from inorganic material... turab, teen etc
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
3-Humans means determined time. The body rots. After the resurrection Earth and the universe will be changed. We will be changed to be accommodated in a different domain. That is the message from Qoran.
Or are you expecting to stay human and repeat the cycle? "Wa Zawajnahum " It means we will be coupled with a new body" it does not mean giving us virgin spouses. There will be no reproduction.
Irrelevant to out discussion.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
4-So who is this verse(43:5) addressed to first?:أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
And why are the addressed "musrifeen"?
It is this concept in Qoran I was referring to as "original sin"
You have the right to make your opinion. For me there is no "original sin" in this ayat.
Quote from: good logic on September 29, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
Coming back to 7:172, in my opinion it refers to the time of 38:67 and before we were made humans.. GOD has made this particular covenant with every human .
Also this life is a trial(yabluakum) :67:2 الَّذى خَلَقَ المَوتَ وَالحَيوٰةَ لِيَبلُوَكُم أَيُّكُم أَحسَنُ عَمَلًا وَهُوَ العَزيزُ الغَفورُ
GOD bless you.
Peace.
There is no base to contact 38:67 with 7:172
"Yabluakum" comes from root ب ل و which has the basic meaning of "to portray the reality".
Why all knowing God would test man? He gives us opportunity in this life to develop our nafs and to show our real self during the time of difficulty. At the end successful are those who have developed their nafs and will progress into next life of Jannah.
Salaam
Quote from: NewFrenzy on September 29, 2018, 10:32:29 AM
Al-A'raf 7:172
وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنۢ بَنِىٓ ءَادَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰٓ أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْۖ قَالُوا۟ بَلَىٰۛ شَهِدْنَآۛ أَن تَقُولُوا۟ يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَٰمَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَٰفِلِينَ
And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."
get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk
Do you remember anything if you had an awareness before this life? Do you remember being asked by your Rabb "am I not you Rabb?
Here is the interpretation of Parvez Ahmed:
Quote "(172) The history of mankind shows that, despite various serious calamities which could have wiped them off the earth, the human race has continued. This is clear evidence that Allah?s programme of creation and Rabubiyya is in operation continuously. We have narrated this history so that human beings may not say on the Day of Reckoning that they were unaware of it." Unquote.
Source: http://tolueislam.org/exposition-of-the-holy-quran-07-surah-al-araaf-g-a-parwez/
So if we reflect on our existence it is an evidence that there is a Rabb.
Peace Novice.
1- Either Insaan was nothing Min kablu or he originated from something. The difference is clear.
Nothing means no matter/particle/atom... From something means frpm matter/particle atom...
So original creation was from nothing. Second creation was from something. GOD does not make such an error.
What you say here is contradictory, quote:
Correct he was nothing before its creation. It does not mean that he was created from nothing. Qur'an informs us that he was created from inorganic material... turab, teen etc
2- Very relevant to our discussion how GOD starts a creation and repeats it.
3-If you think there is no original sin/blame in the Ayat, then explain what it means? You want to settle this issue.
4- Again give your take on 38:67 ?
As for "trial , whether you want "Yablu" or "fitna" they both point to a trial:" A Hasiba Al Naas An Yutraku an Yakulu Aamanna Wa Hum La YUFTANOON".
As for: Why all knowing God would test man?
Exactly for the reason you are saying no to. To test who keeps the covenant agreement (7:172) after our first life blunder.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on September 30, 2018, 02:35:09 AM
1- Either Insaan was nothing Min kablu or he originated from something. The difference is clear.
Nothing means no matter/particle/atom... From something means frpm matter/particle atom...
So original creation was from nothing. Second creation was from something. GOD does not make such an error.
Salaam GL
Lets make it simple. What is your understanding from Quran about creation of mankind?
I will respond to all your questions in your post after reading your reply to my above question.
Peace Novice.
You mean why mankind were created? Or how they were created?
Both are important questions to ask .
The why question leads to what we are talking about in this thread.
I believe Qoran answers both.
The how mankind was created question, I agreed with your take on it and the verses you quoted.
From a single cell(water,materials...) and evolved) + reproduction+ Ruh
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on October 03, 2018, 05:35:40 AM
Peace Novice.
You mean why mankind were created? Or how they were created?
Both are important questions to ask .
The why question leads to what we are talking about in this thread.
I believe Qoran answers both.
The how mankind was created question, I agreed with your take on it and the verses you quoted.
From a single cell(water,materials...) and evolved) + reproduction+ Ruh
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Why aspect is answered in the Qur'aan
http://haqeeqat.pk/Human%20being.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Human%20being.htm)
How aspect is explained rather in detail
Man's Origin: History of his coming into being.
http://haqeeqat.pk/Human%20origin.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Human%20origin.htm)
Peace Mazhar.
Do you believe this happened instantly? ;quote from your link:
Aa'dam is the First Man in Human Species. He was created and took existence as fully mature man.
I disagree to your statement: "Faida sawaytuhu" Fashioning/evolution can take years!
May be this is off topic here ,if others think it is, we can discuss in another thread.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on October 03, 2018, 11:11:44 AM
Peace Mazhar.
Do you believe this happened instantly? ;quote from your link:
Aa'dam is the First Man in Human Species. He was created and took existence as fully mature man.
I disagree to your statement: "Faida sawaytuhu" Fashioning/evolution can take years!
May be this is off topic here ,if others think it is, we can discuss in another thread.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
You seem not to have read. I did not say what you said. A mould - Bashr was created -- it was preened - then came the moment to vivify that preened structure - mould - modal. All process mentioned in Qur'aan are explained ayah by ayah.
Pl read again, we will discuss it threadbare.
Ok let us move to I just recalled having posted this topic
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610316.0 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610316.0)
Quote from: good logic on October 03, 2018, 05:35:40 AM
The how mankind was created question, I agreed with your take on it and the verses you quoted.
From a single cell(water,materials...) and evolved) + reproduction+ Ruh
Salaam good logic
I want to understand how you establish that man was created out of nothing in the light of your above quoted understanding about creation of man.
Peace Novice.
My understanding of the verse is the first creation was from nothing:
"Awalam Yara...Anna Khalaqnahu MIN KABLU Wa lam Yakun Chaian".
MIN KABLU is key here, it means before he was created man.
Otherwise why use MIN KABLU? Before what?
GOD could have said just ; ...Kahlaqnahu Wa Lam Yakun Chaian."?
This and various other verses about "remind us" of our past errors leads me to this understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace Mazhar.
Ok thanks for the link.
I may join that conversation with you later.
I agree with some of your points there.
"Kul Seeroo FI Al Ardi... Kaifa Badaa Allak Al Khalq...Thumma Yueeduhu..."
Yes for sure evolution of the species took place along with mankind. However each species was designed inside that single cell starter to come out and evolve separately and independently.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on October 04, 2018, 02:30:24 AM
Peace Novice.
My understanding of the verse is the first creation was from nothing:
"Awalam Yara...Anna Khalaqnahu MIN KABLU Wa lam Yakun Chaian".
MIN KABLU is key here, it means before he was created man.
Otherwise why use MIN KABLU? Before what?
GOD could have said just ; ...Kahlaqnahu Wa Lam Yakun Chaian."?
This and various other verses about "remind us" of our past errors leads me to this understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
19:66-69
وَيَقُولُ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ أَءِذَا مَا مِتُّ لَسَوۡفَ أُخۡرَجُ حَيًّا (٦٦
and the man says will he be brought forth when he die. (It shows his denial of the truth told to him through the scripture)
أَوَلَا يَذۡڪُرُ ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُ أَنَّا خَلَقۡنَـٰهُ مِن قَبۡلُ وَلَمۡ يَكُ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا (٦٧
Does the man not reflect that we created him before he was nothing. (the man thinks he is something hence shows arrogance and rejection but before his creation he was dust i.e. nothing.
فَوَرَبِّكَ لَنَحۡشُرَنَّهُمۡ وَٱلشَّيَـٰطِينَ ثُمَّ لَنُحۡضِرَنَّهُمۡ حَوۡلَ جَهَنَّمَ جِثِيًّ۬ا (٦٨
So your Rabb is a witness, we will surely gather them and shayateen then make them present around jahannam fallen on their knees.
ثُمَّ لَنَنزِعَنَّ مِن كُلِّ شِيعَةٍ أَيُّہُمۡ أَشَدُّ عَلَى ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ عِتِيًّ۬ا
then we will surely draw from every group those who were most rebellious against Ar-Rehman. (The man becomes rebellious when he think he is something.)
So brother good logic this is what I understand from these verses.
God creates everything from Himself, fromhis rahma
Ar-rahmaan
(Allah) Most Gracious! (1) It is He Who has taught the Qur'an. (2) He has created man: (3) He has taught him speech (and intelligence). (4) The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; ....
Read de hole sura.
There can never exist nothing. Sha'i is thing.
Before his creation, man was nothing, no thing, but that does not mean that he was created from nothing, but rather that the creation he is or anything is before its creation is no thing, but God is, and is rahmaan, and all His names.
Salaam
Thank you brother Novice for your take on the verses.
I understand from them that GOD is saying that we have already been recreated i.e we lived and died(before) and now we are created as humans . So indeed we will be resurrected again as another creation.(GOD creates a cycle and repeats a different cycle so that He completes His plan of Justice and Mercy towards all His creations- Trial, Judgement reward, sanction...Whatever is planned for what He creates)
GOD bless you.
Peace.
This topic got of lot of things to research..
lets solve this thing first what is meant by TWICE we give you life and death.
first theory, we were created before in some other forms of life where God ask us for becoming human being then we put to death..
and now here we have again life and death what we will face. 2 + 2 = 4 + we will b alive again for hereafter without getting dead again..
so equation is like this 2(life) + 2(death) + 1 life = 5 no dead in hereafter
lets go onto other theory ...just this life and death + the life what we will get hereafter
so equation is like this 2(life) + 1 (death)... = 3
how you guys make it 2(lifes) + 2 (death) = 4 ? [thats what we need to think]
you all knowledgeable people are jumping to second step without solving the first core subject of the verse.
whether we created from nothing or we were nothing.. will come after the first step.. :police:
17:75 Then, We would have made you taste double the retribution in this life and double the retribution in death
40:11 They will say: "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this state?"
Guys apparently nobody's interested in the equation but i found another verse saying something similar.
RED is there is any hint of re-incarnation ?
or we can come back again and again thats REAL hell and once we passed we dnt have to come back ?
thats y death is mystery no religion give details of afterlife?
becoz if we know the mystery it will b no fun everybodys enjoying life relaxly that we will come back i dun know tbh lol .
but reincarnation is something interesting to think about, specially one chance philosphy is quite risky i feel ?
what you say lovely members ?
these two verses also hints towards evolutionary process of species and cells may b ?
becoz twice اثنتينand double ضعف also used as multipliedفيضاعفه respectively. example verse below.
57:11 Who will lend God a loan of righteousness that He may multiply it for him, and he will have a generous recompense.
I think we were alive in some form before being put to death and resurrected in the womb. Then we die again in this life and we're resurrected again to return to our Lord. Anything beyond that seems like conjecture.