Surrogacy

[Sania Haque]

peace, natural/surrogate woman who gives birth or breastfeeds is considered a mother.

Gotthelf Bergstrasse Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C-dating from ms.or.fol. 4313]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/23?handschrift=73



31:14 ووصينا and instruct we of الانسن the humankind بولديه with parents his/said person حملته carry she him امه mother his وهنا weakness of علي on وهن weakness وفصاله and separation his في in (within <= less than or equal to) عامين year two ان that اشكر be thankful لي to me ولولديك and to parents your الي to me المصير the destiny

46:15 ووصينا and instruct we of الانسن the humankind بولديه with parents his/said person حسنا best/goodness of حملته carry she him امه mother his كرها dislike of/unwillingly ووضعته and gave birth him كرها dislike of/unwillingly وحمله and carry his وفصاله and separation his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycle of حتي until اذا when of بلغ reach اشده vigor his وبلغ and reach اربعين group of forty سنه year/timeframe قال said رب lord اوزعني grants me ان that اشكر I thank نعمتك favor your التي the one انعمت favors thou علي upon me وعلي and upon ولدي parents mine وان and that اعمل I work صلحا righteous of ترضه please you واصلح and reconciles لي for me في in ذريتي progeny mine اني indeed I تبت turn (repent) اليك to you واني and indeed I من of المسلمين those acquiescent

Thus regardless conception method: same calculations apply min natural survival ~5 months.

p = pregnancy time/carry his (variable)
w = weaning time/separation his (variable)
w <= 730 days {31:14 (2 x 365 days = 730 days i.e. <= 2 solar years)}

870 days – p <= 730 days {46:15 30 x (lunar months / day) = 870 days}
p = 870 days – 730 days = 140+ days

30 shr = preg | preg | preg + wean | wean | wean
(Days) #days | #wks |#mths + #days| #wks| #mths

870.00 = 116.00 16.57 4.00 + 754.00 107.71 26.00 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (False!)
_____________________________________________________________________
870.00 = 140.00 20.00 4.83 + 730.00 104.29 25.17 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (True!)
870.00 = 145.00 20.71 5.00 + 725.00 103.57 25.00 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (True!)
870.00 = 151.00 21.57 5.21 + 719.00 102.71 24.79
870.00 = 153.00 21.86 5.28 + 717.00 102.43 24.72
870.00 = 164.00 23.43 5.66 + 706.00 100.86 24.34
870.00 = 174.00 24.86 6.00 + 696.00 99.43 24.00
870.00 = 179.20 25.60 6.18 + 690.80 98.69 23.82
870.00 = 203.00 29.00 7.00 + 667.00 95.29 23.00
870.00 = 232.00 33.14 8.00 + 638.00 91.14 22.00
870.00 = 261.00 37.29 9.00 + 609.00 87.00 21.00 (average pregnancy 9 + 21 weaning)
870.00 = 290.00 41.43 10.00 + 580.00 82.86 20.00
870.00 = 319.00 45.57 11.00 + 551.00 78.71 19.00
870.00 = 348.00 49.71 12.00 + 522.00 74.57 18.00

53:32 الذين the ones يجتنبون avoiding كباير greater الاثم the detriment والفوحش and the immoralities الا except اللمم the small faults ان indeed ربك lord your واسع extensive المغفره the forgiveness هو he اعلم knows بكم in/concerning you اذ when انشاكم raises you من from الارض the land واذ and when انتم are you اجنه fetuses في in بطون interior body امهتكم mothers yours فلا so not تزكوا thou purify ye of انفسكم souls yours/yourselves هو he اعلم knows بمن in who اتقي heeds he

No I do understand that surrogate mothers are considered the mothers. They say surrogacy creates a problem Because the biological mother whose genes baby carries is not considered thr mother of the baby since Quran says that a mother is who carries the baby for 9 months, gives birth to them and breastfed them. On the other hand biological mothers are mothers in Islam. 😐 What is the heck is even this reasoning.

[Sania Haque]

Salaam, gestational surrogacy is permissible in Qur'anic principles, as for traditional surrogacy, I'm not quite certain.

You say you're looking for verses. There are no verses, it's all about principles. There is no extramarital sex involved, there is no kind of harm involved. So, it is all good.

Ah no I am looking for verses which can give me some insight whether the claim by sectarians that biological mother is not considered the mother of the baby Because according to Quran a mother is the one who carries you and breastfeed you, not the one with whom you share your genes, is true or not ? I was looking for more Quranic evidences like that because then the sectarians are implying that the baby can also marry the biological mother since according to their understanding of Quran biological mothers are not actually mothers. Which kind of sounds absurd. I donot understand why some people have a problem with it. At the end of the day it's just transfering the cells into your body. Dont we transfer blood, kidney, cornea etc ? In my eyes it's the same thing tbh

[jkhan]

See, I do not believe in the kind of circular reasoning you are giving. I do appreciate you trying to educate me but no offense but the way you reason is just like how any sectarians reasons. I think we have different ethical values that's why we are not able to find common grounds. And I wasn't talking on behalf of you ( i was being sarcastic in previous comment sorry 👉🏻👈🏻 ) anyways I donot see God giving any character certificate to women. Your beliefs I respect it, I just don't agree with it. I honestly donot get the logics you use. Thank you, peace

Peace...

I don't blame you.. Coz I know you are very young but curious as well to pose questions... Posing questions and finding answers cultivate a person...
I never want you to take my way... My way is satisfied to me coz I am certain that I take Quran for guidance... Ensure yourself whether you take Quran for guidance... I mean in the end for salvation...

Note:  quran is a book to explore and get what suits best for our questions and concerns... There are in Quran straight forward rules and there are within Quran you have to penetrate for finding the right path...
Just tell me simply... I hope I have asked this question before also to someone in this forum... Has Allah forbidden a biological daughter from marrying her father?
4:23 prohibits a father from marrying a daughter but not a daughter marrying a father... Or can a woman marry her father in  law? No separate instructions given to daughter etc.. Further, does Quran prohibits a brother marrying another brother? If not how you or anyone say that brother to brother or sister to sister marriage is not allowed?  Or you or anyone make it allowed since Quran not prohibited literally? That's why God says do they not explore deeply QURAN,  are their hearts locked up?  47:24 why we need to explore Quran if things are manifest.. What happens if we deeply explore QURAN.. Do we understand same way as they who didn't explore it..

I explored the Quran and explained what I understood from my exploration but you don't like the way I reason it saying that I don't like the way you circular reason it and it doesn't  make logic.. That's your quote... No grudges.. Coz path is manifest in Quran... failing to perceive is one's destiny..

So answer to my above questions within Quran.....

If one person sells his sperm for money and somewhere a boy got birth and with the time this person's own daughter and his sperm son fall in love unknown and they get married.. Who is responsible for this crime against Quranic law? The one who allowed surrogacy is responsible..

If you don't use quran in its entirety, then it is your choice to accept anything that pleases you regardless whether God allowed or not
That's all..

[Sania Haque]

Peace...

I don't blame you.. Coz I know you are very young but curious as well to pose questions... Posing questions and finding answers cultivate a person...
I never want you to take my way... My way is satisfied to me coz I am certain that I take Quran for guidance... Ensure yourself whether you take Quran for guidance... I mean in the end for salvation...

Note:  quran is a book to explore and get what suits best for our questions and concerns... There are in Quran straight forward rules and there are within Quran you have to penetrate for finding the right path...
Just tell me simply... I hope I have asked this question before also to someone in this forum... Has Allah forbidden a biological daughter from marrying her father?
4:23 prohibits a father from marrying a daughter but not a daughter marrying a father... Or can a woman marry her father in  law? No separate instructions given to daughter etc.. Further, does Quran prohibits a brother marrying another brother? If not how you or anyone say that brother to brother or sister to sister marriage is not allowed?  Or you or anyone make it allowed since Quran not prohibited literally? That's why God says do they not explore deeply QURAN,  are their hearts locked up?  47:24 why we need to explore Quran if things are manifest.. What happens if we deeply explore QURAN.. Do we understand same way as they who didn't explore it..

I explored the Quran and explained what I understood from my exploration but you don't like the way I reason it saying that I don't like the way you circular reason it and it doesn't  make logic.. That's your quote... No grudges.. Coz path is manifest in Quran... failing to perceive is one's destiny..

So answer to my above questions within Quran.....

If one person sells his sperm for money and somewhere a boy got birth and with the time this person's own daughter and his sperm son fall in love unknown and they get married.. Who is responsible for this crime against Quranic law? The one who allowed surrogacy is responsible..

If you don't use quran in its entirety, then it is your choice to accept anything that pleases you regardless whether God allowed or not
That's all..

Aren't you talking of artificial insemination ? Surrogacy is totally different from. Artificial insemination Because the biological father and mother of the baby is totally known. Secondly, the demerits of something doesn't renders it prohibited. That's really weak reasoning. A person always has the chance to get addicted to antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs and addiction is totally haram in Islam. Does that mean using Quran's reasoning we would say anti depressants and anti anxiety pills are forbidden ? But to answer your question people using Artificial insemination wrongly doesn't makes the whole thing prohibited. In Islam, people are responsible for their own actions, Allah doesn't prohibits a thing because some people are exploiting the things he made lawful. If a crime like that is committed then only Allah knows what's gonna happen. It all depends on the intentions of the person selling his sperm, whether he did out of necessity or he did it out of greed, nothing is going to happen to the brother and sister Because they are innocent and they have had no idea. If they find out in the future the. It's their decision what to do. And this is something that can totally happen in a traditional conceptions as well. There are fathers who leave behind their wives and kids and cut off all connections from them. Then they get married to someone else and have a child. Now just imagine, his two kids meet each other and fall in love and get married. Eho is to blame here? In no way artificial insemination is haram, and hence it's necessary for you to remember that there are many people who practice AI safely.

[Neptin]

Okay I would like to make one correction here, I do want your opinion but which is based on solid proofs from Quran and not on circular reasoning. I hold a strong opinion that surrogacy is very much permissible in Islam. If not for the verse I mentioned I wouldn't even be asking this question.

Peace. That's his opinion based on his own proof from the Qur'an. You can't hope for anything different. If you do, then you're probably putting Qur'anists on a pedestal. Like any other theist, a Qur'anist's beliefs are mostly influenced by their cultural and personal dispositions.

I think the opponents are just naturally averse to the idea of surrogacy, accordingly they resort rationalizing their aversion with the Qur'an. But then they do it so badly as all they cite are passages that have no bearing with surrogacy. It's a form of abusing the Qur'an. Take the Qur'an and find in it justification to ban or dissuade others for things that personally offends or appalls them. Kind of like what Muslims do on other subjects like anal sex.

The other options like fostering/adoption better ? Yes.

No. Adoption is not necessarily better. It's a mixed bag. Especially, if you already have a full biological child, bringing in an adoptee could sow the seeds for future envy and rivalry between your adoptee and non-adopted children. Plus, you could lose your adoptee at anytime to their biological parents.

As of now I really donot pay any heed to conservative Quranist's opinions. Their beliefs and way of reasoning mirrors the sectarians and there's nothing wrong with it but I have spent my whole life trying to view Quran through circular reasonings, now when I am trying to re discover Quran I want to use more logic now.

  @underlined.

Hadith was never the problem, this is what 7.5 years in Qur'anist forums have taught me. The real problem is with how people are. Your approach to Qur'an and Islam is a function of the kind of person you are, which is a product of your genes, cultural background and real experiences. Your religious beliefs are an adaptation to whom you are.

So when people state, "I support X because the Qur'an prescribed it", that's kind of half truth. They support X primarily because they've been naturally conditioned to accept it. And realizing this, is very key to understanding why people hold certain beliefs that may be poorly conceived, antiquated and impractical.

Because according to Quran a mother is the one who carries you and breastfeed you, not the one with whom you share your genes, is true or not ? I was looking for more Quranic evidences like that because then the sectarians are implying that the baby can also marry the biological mother since according to their understanding of Quran biological mothers are not actually mothers. Which kind of sounds absurd

@underlined is no better than half truth. There is no definition of mother in the Qur'an. The verse 58:2 was addressed to specific men pertaining to an incident at the time of the prophet. And yes, the mothers of those men were only those who conceived and gave birth to them. But the purpose of that verse wasn't to define a mother.

The Qur'an's terms and language are restricted to the knowledge of the 7th century. At the time of it's revelation, every baby automatically carried the genes of the woman that conceives and give birth to them. They didn't even fathom gestational surrogacy then. Hence, the Qur'an never distinguished genetic mother from surrogate mother.

PS: You may state that I'm restricting the audience of Qur'an primarily to the 7th century Arabs, and I'd say "Yes". Even if we argue that Qur'an is for all times, it's language and context is limited to the 7th century Arabia.

[jkhan]

Aren't you talking of artificial insemination ? Surrogacy is totally different from. Artificial insemination Because the biological father and mother of the baby is totally known. Secondly, the demerits of something doesn't renders it prohibited. That's really weak reasoning. A person always has the chance to get addicted to antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs and addiction is totally haram in Islam. Does that mean using Quran's reasoning we would say anti depressants and anti anxiety pills are forbidden ? But to answer your question people using Artificial insemination wrongly doesn't makes the whole thing prohibited. In Islam, people are responsible for their own actions, Allah doesn't prohibits a thing because some people are exploiting the things he made lawful. If a crime like that is committed then only Allah knows what's gonna happen. It all depends on the intentions of the person selling his sperm, whether he did out of necessity or he did it out of greed, nothing is going to happen to the brother and sister Because they are innocent and they have had no idea. If they find out in the future the. It's their decision what to do. And this is something that can totally happen in a traditional conceptions as well. There are fathers who leave behind their wives and kids and cut off all connections from them. Then they get married to someone else and have a child. Now just imagine, his two kids meet each other and fall in love and get married. Eho is to blame here? In no way artificial insemination is haram, and hence it's necessary for you to remember that there are many people who practice AI safely.

You didn't reply to my question...

Further out of necessity, evil cannot be applied as right... Try to understand  that pls..

[jkhan]

Dear Neptin

Below your quote..
"I think the opponents are just naturally averse to the idea of surrogacy"

I hope you address me here as well since I am opponent  to surrogacy...
Look brother we are not againat to any act naturally...thats your wrong assumption... We can't believe in extreme truth of Quran by being already prejudice to anything.. So then our opinion overpowers Quranic truth... Surrogacy is evil coz it is evil as I explained within Quran...
Everything God doesn't need to lose out that this is haram and this halal.. Just use the tone of Quran you will find what to avoid and what to accept  ....
4:23 is a good example

[Sania Haque]

Peace. That's his opinion based on his own proof from the Qur'an. You can't hope for anything different. If you do, then you're probably putting Qur'anists on a pedestal. Like any other theist, a Qur'anist's beliefs are mostly influenced by their cultural and personal dispositions.

I think the opponents are just naturally averse to the idea of surrogacy, accordingly they resort rationalizing their aversion with the Qur'an. But then they do it so badly as all they cite are passages that have no bearing with surrogacy. It's a form of abusing the Qur'an. Take the Qur'an and find in it justification to ban or dissuade others for things that personally offends or appalls them. Kind of like what Muslims do on other subjects like anal sex.

No. Adoption is not necessarily better. It's a mixed bag. Especially, if you already have a full biological child, bringing in an adoptee could sow the seeds for future envy and rivalry between your adoptee and non-adopted children. Plus, you could lose your adoptee at anytime to their biological parents.

  @underlined.

Hadith was never the problem, this is what 7.5 years in Qur'anist forums have taught me. The real problem is with how people are. Your approach to Qur'an and Islam is a function of the kind of person you are, which is a product of your genes, cultural background and real experiences. Your religious beliefs are an adaptation to whom you are.

So when people state, "I support X because the Qur'an prescribed it", that's kind of half truth. They support X primarily because they've been naturally conditioned to accept it. And realizing this, is very key to understanding why people hold certain beliefs that may be poorly conceived, antiquated and impractical.

@underlined is no better than half truth. There is no definition of mother in the Qur'an. The verse 58:2 was addressed to specific men pertaining to an incident at the time of the prophet. And yes, the mothers of those men were only those who conceived and gave birth to them. But the purpose of that verse wasn't to define a mother.

The Qur'an's terms and language are restricted to the knowledge of the 7th century. At the time of it's revelation, every baby automatically carried the genes of the woman that conceives and give birth to them. They didn't even fathom gestational surrogacy then. Hence, the Qur'an never distinguished genetic mother from surrogate mother.

PS: You may state that I'm restricting the audience of Qur'an primarily to the 7th century Arabs, and I'd say "Yes". Even if we argue that Qur'an is for all times, it's language and context is limited to the 7th century Arabia.

I have no problem with them giving me their reasonings but damn that has to have some correlation with my question. As I said there's nothing wrong with a Quranist using sectarian's way of thinking, especially because Quranist donot impose their ideas on others ( and i think that's one of the best thing community). Jkhan has been an amazing brother to me who has from the day one encouraged me to use my own critical thinking and knowledge to come to conclusions. He can have his own views and I can have my views and we can co exist peacefully.

But that doesn't change the fact that the same kind of reasoning is made by scholars of hadith. They use the same method to derive meanings from different verses which has nothing to do with the actual questions. I have been hearing them say the same thing my whole life. It has made sense then, when I used to think that God is there to prohibit everything and make us miserable. It doesn't makes sense to me anymore. So that's why I think I am at a point where I am mostly going to disgree with conservative Quranists

[Sania Haque]

You didn't reply to my question...

Further out of necessity, evil cannot be applied as right... Try to understand  that pls..

See here, I am going to disagree with you because as you said it's not necessary that what you think evil is also perceived in the same way by others. I have already answered your question so i donot know what you want me to say now. Artificial insemination is not haram. It's not prohibited. At least bring some coherent arguement here. Anecdotes and personal opinions donot form the laws of Quran. I can whine that breastfeed a kid doesn't makes you that kid's mother but if Allah has ordained it then this is the law we have to follow it. You can give 1000s of reasons why something can be exploited and can be a crime but if Quran doesn't have any evidences against it then that thing cannot be prohibited. Simple

[jkhan]

See here, I am going to disagree with you because as you said it's not necessary that what you think evil is also perceived in the same way by others. I have already answered your question so i donot know what you want me to say now. Artificial insemination is not haram. It's not prohibited. At least bring some coherent arguement here. Anecdotes and personal opinions donot form the laws of Quran. I can whine that breastfeed a kid doesn't makes you that kid's mother but if Allah has ordained it then this is the law we have to follow it. You can give 1000s of reasons why something can be exploited and can be a crime but if Quran doesn't have any evidences against it then that thing cannot be prohibited. Simple

Peace...
Remember Sania if you say another that you can't forbid one thing at the same time you can't allow it as well for yourself, coz QURAN has not allowed it literally .. If you allow it is your own opinion only as well.. Not Quran's.. ...to avoid and reject,  Quran verses should be compared... BTW I never referred artificial insemination of wedded couple.. I know what surrogacy is.. Lol..

Okay.. Let me bring some similar questions...

1...Can one have sex before marriage with his boy friend ?
2... Can one have sex willingly with a prostitute .. Coz it is their body and both consent for pleasure?
3... Can one watch porn?   And watch porn and do sex?
4... Can one act/play a role in porn video for fun for money?
5... Can one do profession of prostitution willingly?
6.... Can one be a pimp?
7... Can one have anal sex with wife without her consent?
8... Can one have homosex since he or she is naturally addicted to homosex instead of?

9... Can one kiss a girl with her permission...
10...can one take another's help to get his masturbation done?

11... Can one have sex with animals of their choice.. If animal seems interested in it... ?

12... Can one sell his kidney etc since offer is so high while living?

13...can one have sex with robots, gadgets etc.. Etc

14... Can one live without marriage but as couple ciz of not being able take responsibilities of wedded life .. Can they live shifting their partners at will... Etc etc

Above such questions and such acts not harm anyone literally coz they do with consent... If you try direct orders from Quran I am afraid you won't find. 

Purpose of evil and purpose of good play a huge role to identify things crystal clearly...

9:67 "The hypocrite men and hypocrite women are of one another. They enjoin what is wrong and forbid what is right and close their hands. They have forgotten Allah , so He has forgotten them [accordingly]. Indeed, the hypocrites - it is they who are the defiantly disobedient"

9:112 "..... those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits of Allah. And give good tidings to the believers."

As I said earlier,  God has not listed out every Evil and every good act.. It is believers who perceive them within Quran with the magnitude of act.. Failing to perceive Quran results in allowing them.. For example has God forbidden the flesh of human being for consumption? Coz only 4 things God has forbidden in which human flesh is not included... Unless you don't understand the tone of Quran you can say God has not forbidden human flesh then who the hell you are to forbid it and you also a sectarian ..
Evil is self perception and comparison of verses and outcome of act etc...
Likewise God didn't forbid homosex marriage...but comparisons allow you to perceive that it is evil.. Needless for God to mention such a common sense..

For you your way and for me my way... I am responsible for what I do and what I avoid.. And yours is your choice.

Little tip.. Find out thoroughly the evil in an act before avoiding it or allowing in one's own life not for others ..

Laws are equal to all. If surrogacy OR homosex is allowed for one and it should be allowed to all..

If suurgacy is allowed coz the technology is developed now,  so,  best way a surrogacy could be practices in the ancient time is taking the permission of barren wife by husband and have sex with surrogate mother until she conceives.. And take the baby... And why surrogacy is allowed now and not before in whay is possible for them ..

If a mother of daughter agrees to bear the created embryo, in fact she gives a birth to a child and she becomes grand mother of her own delivered child.. Though biologically grandchild is not her own coz eggs and sperm is her daughter's and son in law ... What a shame?

If such acts are very reasonable then advise to people to carry out and be responsible for what you advised.. Coz your only criteria is QURAN not forbidden..so allow human flesh as well coz not forbidden