Every year, a common occurrence is a dispute between followers of various sects about when so-called Ramadan starts and ends. This year is no exception and some countries ended their so-called Ramadan one day before others.
In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent.
The current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]
Interestingly, the word "hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts until much later so we don't really know what this arbitrary dating of the new era was based on.
One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.
As a side note, traditionalists also contend that the prophet first started to abstain in the second year after migration/"hijra". So according to them this means that 2:185 was revealed early in Yathrib. The traditionalists contend that Chapter 9 (where they claim there is the alleged calendar modification order) was revealed in the last year of the prophet's life. By holding to this traditional view and backdating the so-called Islamic calendar to the alleged first year of "hijra" sectarians imply that all his life, the prophet abstained on the wrong dates (see Appendix).
Another factor that the start of the present so-called Ramadan depends on is the order of the months at the time the new calendar system was adopted. In "pre-quranic" times, the Arabs didn't use a single standard calendar. Arabs used calendars based on 4, 5, and 6-season system. Some "pre-quranic" Arabs used the calendar system of the Persians. Others used the calendar system of the Jews and some used the calendar system of the Romans. The Nabataeans used to align the months with the zodiac and hence some Arabs used the star based calendar system. Rabi3 months etymology denotes grazing in spring and fall. In Arabia the rainy season, which would promote the growth of grasses for grazing, occurs during autumn. This is confirmed by what is known about Arabs using a 6 season system that split fall into Rabi3 Althani (early fall) and Kharif (late fall) prior to the so-called Islamic calendar. In this system each season lasted two months. The new Omar Calendar that we have today has a different order for the months. The arbitrary decision to rearrange the order of the months also affects when the present day so-called Ramadan occurs.
Hence, in addition to the sighting of the new crescent moon, we have two other completely arbitrary factors affecting when so-called Ramadan starts. Hence, for all intents and purposes, the current so-called Ramadan is completely arbitrary and it is no different than randomly picking a month for abstaining.
The problem of pinpointing an arbitrary month called Ramadan is the same type of problem that the Jews, Christians, and sectarians face in pinpointing their "holy" days in the arbitrary week. For example, sectarians claim that Friday, which they named Al-Jum3at (as opposed to the common noun "ywm al-jum3at"/time of gathering in the great reading), is a special "holy" day where, according to their traditions, Adam was created. What is hard for many people to understand is that the week is completely arbitrary. Hence, the fact is that the week has not always been seven days. Weeks from 4 to 20 days were observed. For example, the ancient Egyptians used a 10-day week while the Mayans used a 20-day week. The week was typically the interval from one market day to the next. Four to 20 days gave farmers and craftsmen enough time to gather and transport products to sell. Hence, when Friday occurs depends on when the present seven day week was arbitrarily adopted and which day it started with.
There is nothing wrong or forbidden with an arbitrary timeframe in itself. The problem is to act as if The God somehow has to conform to the man-made arbitrary timeframes and to say to people that The God ordered you to fast in this or that completely arbitrary timeframe or take that arbitrary day as "holy". Another problem with such arbitrary timeframes is that errors made at the beginning of their adoption are propagated into the future and get larger and larger. This shouldn't be the case because we are not responsible for the errors of those who came before us. Hence, an effective method of specifying a timeframe shouldn't be one that allows such errors to propagate. It should be one that allows those who have faith at any point of time to obey The God's command correctly irrespective of what their predecessors decided to do or not to do. This is impossible with the current so-called Islamic calendar, which as we saw is influenced by decisions made centuries ago. Another problem is that, as we saw earlier, now and in the past people used different calendars, a universal command that is to be understood by everybody would best be based on clear cosmic phenomena and not on man-made calendars.
Now that we presented the problem, let's look in the great reading for the solution.
2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?
Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon.
There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.
However, one can indirectly verify the meaning. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the second half of the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only separators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly after 9:82, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending at that time and from 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended so that provides an additional link between "shahr ramadhan" and "al-shahr al-7aram". Hence, circumstantial evidence from the great reading supports that "al-shahr al-7aram"/"shahr ramadhan" is a hot time of the year and confirms the dictionary's meaning.
With this understanding, let's now complete the translation of 2:185 that we started above:
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
Now 2:185 contains the complete information that we need to know when to start the abstinence. It is the complete information irrespective of what calendar system each nation or group uses because it doesn't rely on any calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot.
Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal. In fact, not only will the full-moon seem bigger than normal, but the low-hanging full moon takes on an orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere. For the same reason that warning lights are orange, this orange hue creates a strong visual response, preserves the observer's night vision, and allows him/her to better see the shape and details of the moon than the normal white moon light (while driving, we all experienced how looking into white headlights degrades those abilities). Hence, the full-moon after the summer solstice is easier to witness. Moreover, because this orange moon appears while the days are longest, at the time of its appearance it is still daylight and it is still hot outside. All these signs are certainly not coincidental.
Now the next question to ask is about the year. Is the year in the great reading solar or lunar?
10.5. It is He who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light and made it stages; so that you might know the number of years and the calculation. The God didn't create this except with the truth, He explains His signs to people who know.
From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon, however there is no mention of a specific stage of the moon. Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 17:12:
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.
More confirmation is in 12:47-49 that talk about the "year" definitely as a solar year because of reference to agricultural cycles and planning of crops that would have to be done according to seasons that don't change from one year to the next.
A verse that is often mistranslated and hence confused is 2:189. Here is the mistranslation of Yusuf Ali:
002.189
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper.
Please notice that Yusuf Ali and most other translators translate "ahila(t)" (the plural of "hilal") as new moons. On the other hand, the meaning given for "hilal" by Arabic lexicons such as Al-Mo7it, Al-Wasit, and Lisan Al-3arab is different. The lexicons say that the "hilal" is the moon in both its beginning and its end. Yet for some reason, most translators ignored this fact and instead claim that "hilal"/"ahila(t)" means only the new moon. Let's now replace new-moons with the correct translation:
2:189. They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say: "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
According to the corrected translation, crescent moons in general (both the thinning crescent and the widening crescent) can serve as timing devices.
Another verse that talks about timing/"myqat" is 7:142 where Moussa is described as completing the "myqat"/timing. So "myqat"/"mawaqit" can signify timing/timings for completion of something.
7:142. And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten: thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
We also hear about 10 nights in 89:2.
Interestingly, 10 nights is exactly how long it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage. Note the relationship between the 10 extra nights in 7:142 and the 10 days of "7ajj"/debate in 2:196. We hear about 10 days in 2:196, three during the "7aj"/bargain and seven when those whose family was not in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction/"al-masjid al-haram" return. As for those whose family is in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction, they would stay the whole 10 days. This makes sense because those whose family are not oriented to the truth from our Lord, should go back earlier to teach them based on what they heard. Hence, putting 2:189, 7:142, and 2:196 together, we can see that the "ahila(t)"/crescents provide timing for the completion of the "7ajj"/debate not its beginning.
We also know from 2:189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate. This way it lasts for 10 total days, which is the exact period from full-moon to crescent:
<full moon ><---10 days--><-- thinning crescent 4-5 days--><-- widening crescent ---4-5 days--><---10 days--><full moon>
This is how the crescents provide timing for the "7aj"/bargain. Moreover, the "7aj"/bargain is a known counted days at the four restriction "ash-hur"/full moons. They are the 10 days between the full moon and the crescent moon for four consecutive full moons, starting with the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan" after the summer solstice. This gives people 4 opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate.
Verse 2:184 talks about abstaining for a few/"ma3doodat" days. The word "ma3doodat" typically indicates a number from 3-10 as the term is used for numbers which can be simply counted even by the fingers of the hand. As we saw already, 2:196 indicates that the full time of "7ajj"/debate is 10 days for those whose family are in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction and three days for those whose family is not (could be shortened to two according to 2:203). Thus, in 2:185 the complete count is 10 days, which again is the exact period from full-moon to crescent. Hence, the crescent once again serves as a timing device, in this case to time the abstinence.
This would be a good time to find out how the restricted full-moons fit in all this. First, let's see the traditional view. The reason for the so-called Islamic calendar is always given as verse 9:37:
9:37. But the "nasi'a" is an increase in rejection, whereby those who have rejected are misguide with it. They make it permitted one year, and they restrict it one year, to circumvent the count that The God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what The God made restricted! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and The God does not guide the rejecting people.
The whole lunar calendar was adopted to avoid the "nasi'a". Interestingly, despite this there is no consensus about what the word "nasi'a" means. Some people claim that it is the addition of an intercalary month. Others claim that it is the haphazard assignment of the restricted "ash-hur" at the beginning of each year. All the classical Arabic dictionaries say that "nasi'a" means "delay" and that the Arabs used to delay the start of the restricted "ash-hur" by making the month of Safar restricted instead of Mu7aram. Given the etymology of the word that points to "delay" then most probably the dictionaries are the most correct and their meaning has nothing to do with changing the calendar to lunar, since the arbitrary assignment of a restricted "shahr" can be delayed in a lunar calendar just as easily as in a solar one.
Another verse that is used to justify a fully lunar calendar is 9:36. Here is a translation of 9:36 that is based on our findings:
9:36. The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God?s book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively and know that The God is with the forethoughtful.
Now, people will point out that in some years the number of full-moons is actually 13. However, we are not concerned about the number ("3adad") of full-moons in a year. We are concerned about the count ("3idat") of full-moons in a year.
To illustrate the difference between "3adad" and "3idat", let me use an example. In so-called Islamic countries the laws for divorce state that there is a 3 months waiting period before a divorce becomes final. Hence, a couple who divorced on September 7th would have their divorced finalized on December 7th, if using the Georgian calendar. Or applying the same principle in the so-called Islamic calendar, a couple who divorces on the 12th of Mu7aram would have their divorce finalized on the 12th of Rabi3 Al-Thani. Hence, the number of months is 3 and the waiting period in both cases is approximately 90 days. As we will see, this is different than the count "3idat".
Verse 2:228 provides interesting clues into how the count is different than the absolute number. It shows us how waiting periods and "shahr" are measured.
It can be seen from 2:226-228 that in case the couple decides to divorce after the initial 4 "ash-hur" waiting period in 2:226, then 2:228 prescribes an additional waiting period of 3 menstruations.
What is interesting here is that assuming that the average is 28 days for a menstrual cycle and it lasts for a week, counting 3 menstruations could be between 56+7=61 days (if the lady happens to have her menstruation right after the divorce) and 82 days (if the lady happens to finish her menstruation right before the divorce). This is certainly different than the 90 days we found earlier by waiting for 3 months.
In 2:226, assuming a cycle of full moon to full moon is 30 days, then waiting for 4 "full moons" could range from 90 days (if a full moon occurs right after the couple is estranged) to 119 days (if a full moon occurred right before the couple is estranged). This is again different than the 120 days of the absolute 4 months.
Another interesting observation is that 2:234 talks about 4 "ash-hur" plus 10 (days?/nights?) for the woman whose husband died. What are the 10 days/nights after the full moon? As we saw earlier, it is the time it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage again. So here we have the crescent used as a timing device for the purpose of counting the waiting period.
There is a sign in this that can help us to correctly understand 9:36. If The God was telling us about the number (i.e., an absolute number), then given that a few billion years passed since He created the moon and the earth, the absolute number of full-moons would not be twelve but would be in the billions. Hence, what is meant here is not an absolute number but how to count the full moons in a year. What The God is telling us is that we should always count 12 full moons in a year, out of which, we should count four as restricted. We start with the marker given to us. So in a solar year starting from the summer solstice, the first full-moon to count would be the one after the summer solstice and that is the full-moon of "ramadhan"/scorching heat. So what happens in the occasional years where we have 13 full-moons from one summer solstice to the next? The answer is that we simply do not count the 13th moon. This would automatically readjust the count and the full-moon of "ramadhan" would always be the first moon after the summer solstice. It is a very clear and surprisingly simple mechanism. All it requires is that we put our faith in The God and count only 12 full-moons in a year despite that we occasionally see 13.
So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan") is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual, the crescent times the end of the period (a period of about 90+10 ≈ 100 days). The solstice happens towards the later part of June (June 22 or so). The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that. Thus, the start of the restricted full-moons would be on average around the beginning of the second week of July and would end around the third week in October (this is average but it could be sooner or as late as end of October depending on when the full-moon occurred after the summer solstice). So the restriction full-moons cover the time from about mid summer to mid fall.
The timing of the restriction is significant, especially given that the restriction is on hunting wild-life. Interestingly, the restriction doesn't cover domesticated livestock animals (see 5:1). Why is that? The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth. By killing a wild female animal, you are not only killing it but you would also be inadvertently killing all its new-born off-spring who cannot feed and fend for themselves. Also, finding the new-born animals gives the hunter an unfair advantage because the mother is sometimes reluctant to leave them or the hunter can just wait close by until the mother comes back for them and easily bring her down. On the other hand, when a mother of a domesticated livestock animal is killed, her new-born can be easily cared for by people and they will survive fine. Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine. There is nothing in the great reading that indicates that they should be the same for people all over the world. We should orient our direction to the truth from our Lord wherever we are, whether in the Southern or Northern hemisphere (see 2:149).
In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena. The orange full-moon after the summer solstice that appears clearer and larger to the observer and is directly in the line of sight can be witnessed by almost everybody so that even primitive societies with no means to calculate the moon cycles ahead of time can witness it. 2:185 doesn't say "whoever was told by someone, who was told by a Mullah about "al-shahr"", it says "whoever witnessed "al-shahr"". This is the simplest and most straightforward method that would generate the least discrepancies no matter how primitive or advanced a society is and no matter what man-made calendar system they use. Moreover, this marker is unaffected by the arbitrary decisions of people who came before us and we don't have to implicitly blindly accept those decisions. Hence, those who have faith can always now and in the future make a fresh start and reset the system to the true marker. So clearly this is a robust timing solution that is not affected by any errors propagated from those who came before us.
Interestingly, after completing this article, we inadvertently found out exactly when the night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr") occurs. Simply, the great reading was descended in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat.
Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 29:14 where both are used.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER:
2:2. This is the book no doubt in it, a guidance for the forethoughtful.
This article reflects my personal interpretation of the verses of the reading as of November 14, 2004. I will try to improve my understanding of the great reading and the universe, except if The God wills and perhaps my Lord guides me to what is nearer in rationality. Please verify all information within for yourself as commanded in 17:36, and remember that simply "none" is the forethoughtful answer to 45:6. If The God willed, the outcome of this article will be beneficial.
APPENDIX
According to unverifiable hearsay stories, it is alleged that Abu Musa Asha'ari, the Governor of Basra wrote the following to Caliph Omar:
"Amir-ul-Mominin, we receive instructions from you every now and then, but as the letters are undated, and some times the contents of the letters differ, it becomes difficult to ascertain as to which instructions are to be followed."
The unverifiable hearsay tale of the establishment of the new calendar then goes something like this:
That set Omar thinking. In the meantime, he received from Yemen a draft for some money which was encashable in Shaban. Omar thought that the practice of merely mentioning the month in such cases was defective for one could not be sure whether the month referred to was of the current or the following year.
Omar convened an assembly to consider the question of calendar reform.
Some one suggested that the Roman calendar should be adopted. After discussion the proposal was rejected as the Roman calendar dated from too remote an era and was cumbersome.
It was next considered whether the Persian calendar might be adopted. Hormuzan explained the salient features of the Persian calendar called 'Mahroz'. The consensus of opinion was that such a calendar would not be suitable for the Muslims.
The general opinion was that instead of adopting any alien calendar, the Muslims should have a calendar of their own. This was agreed to, and the point next considered was from when should such an era begin?
Some one suggested that the era should begin from the date of birth of the Holy Prophet. Some suggested that it should begin from the death of the Holy Prophet. Ali suggested that it should begin from the date the Muslims migrated from Mecca to Madina. After discussion, Ali's suggestion was agreed to.
The Holy Prophet had migrated in the month of Rabi-ulAwwal, when the year had already run two months and eight days. Next the question arose from which month should the new era start.
Some one suggested that the calendar should start with the month of Rajab as in the pre-Islamic period this month was held sacred. Some one proposed that the first month should be Ramzan as that is a sacred month for the Muslims. Another proposal was that the first month should be 'Zul Hajj' as that is the month of the pilgrimage.
Usman suggested that as in Arabia the year started with Muharram the new era should also start with Muharram. This suggestion was accepted. The date was accordingly pushed back by two months and eight days, and the new Hijri calendar began with the first day of Muharram in the year of migration rather than from the actual date of migration.
Peace Ayman
Excellent, super, informative and thoughtful.
Peace all,
An Indepth RESEARCH on SALAAT (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&t=2757)
Quote from: "Idris"peace,
lets take a look at Yankee's question and apply it to Ramadan
QuoteTaking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it? this is only part of the problem, in verses 2:184, 2:196, 4:82, 5:89, 5:95, 58:4, and so forth we are told to abstain/fast in different occasions for different reasons, so lets say somebody that lives in latitudes beyond 66 degrees North during the summer and breaks a pledge, how would he abstain/fast according to 2:196? to my view these verses aren't telling us to fast from dust to dawn when we fail at doing these certain things but to abstain from doing a particular thing when we do so (hence the meaning of saum-abstain) for these reasons I believe we have to change our views of dawn/dusk when it comes to Ramadan too, I'm not sure if Abstinence was also decreed for the prophet and his people as well too? whats your view Marie?
peace
Quote from: "marie"Peace all,
Quote from: "Elena"Peace SwedenMajidah, all,
How do muslims who live in Northern Europe, say Norway and Sweden, organise the fast? In summer there is no night, in winter there is no day, more in the extreme North, but it also happens in the south part, I experienced it.
2:183. O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you perhaps you may be righteous.
In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it is valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
If we cannot apply it for certain areas of our sphere during seasons of winter and summer, perhaps this is the proof that the month of ramadan is neither in winter nor in summer but in other season.
2:187. It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
We know the timing of ?alhajj? is in the months (restricted months) which have been appointed (2:197).
If the four restricted months correspond to the season of autumn in order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, we read in chapter 106 that Quraysh accomplish their journey in winter and summer; they don?t travel during the season of autumn which could correspond to the period of the ramadan and alhajj (the four restricted months) and where they receive "alhujjaj / Pilgrims" (9:19).
Any comments appreciated
Thanks
Marie
Peace sister Marie, all,
Quote from: "marie"Quotethis question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it?
I think that if abstaining is abstaining from food and drink then we are told that those who can do it but with great difficulty should give out charity instead. This would certainly apply to those few living in areas where the days are extremely long.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteIf the four restricted months correspond to the season of autumn in order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, we read in chapter 106 that Quraysh accomplish their journey in winter and summer; they don?t travel during the season of autumn which could correspond to the period of the ramadan and alhajj (the four restricted months) and where they receive "alhujjaj / Pilgrims" (9:19).
Any comments appreciated
The Arabs had six and five season systems that divided what we know today as "summer" into "sayf" (Around 22 april - 22 June) and "qayth" (Around 22 June - 22 August). Hence, "ramadhan" occured in "qayth" not "sayf".
You actually bring up a very important point that totally destroys the present so-called Islamic calendar. In a purely lunar calendar, the alleged restricted months change and would eventually fall in "shitaa" or in "sayf". However, because Quraysh traveled during those times, those CANNOT be the times of the resticted full-moons of "7ajj"/debate.
Given that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair where people gather their products to sell, it makes perfect sense that Quraysh would travel in "sayf" before the start of the restricted full-moons in "qayth" to buy goods to sell at the "7ajj". After the end of the restricted full-moons, it would also make sense that they use the money they earned during trading and travel to buy goods.
Thank you for helping me further clarify and confirm my understanding.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I found your article quite informative, and it seems like the best understanding I've heard so far. Great work!
Peace brothers Hafeez and Peace,
Quote from: "hafeez kazi"Excellent, super, informative and thoughtful.
Quote from: "Peace"I found your article quite informative, and it seems like the best understanding I've heard so far. Great work!
Thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. Ultimate gratitude is to The God who descended the book and didn't allow any deviation in it.
It is brother Zein who got me thinking about this topic again after I had set it aside a while back when I reached a dead end. The reminder that he provided me led to this article and finally solving this puzzle.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: "ayman"...it makes perfect sense that Quraysh would travel in "sayf" before the start of the restricted full-moons in "qayth" to buy goods to sell at the "7ajj". After the end of the restricted full-moons, it would also make sense that they use the money they earned during trading and travel to buy goods.
Please claify what does "restricted full-moons" mean? What has trading and traveling got to do with "restricted full-moons"?
Thanks and GOD Bless.
Peace Danish,
Quote from: "Danish"Please claify what does "restricted full-moons" mean? What has trading and traveling got to do with "restricted full-moons"?
The restriction full-moons is counting a period spanning four full-moons starting with the full-moon of scorching heat/"ramadan". During that period, hunting wildlife is restricted and the gathering of the "7ajj"/debate takes place.
Chapter 106 addresses the people of the prophet. They were making two trips one in "sayf" and another in "shetaa". Those cannot be the same times as the time of "7ajj" where they have to be present (not traveling) so that they can conduct their business. More confirmation that people worked all year so that they can sell their products at the "7ajj"/debate is in 28:27 where hiring is done for the purpose of the "7ajj"/debate.
I hope this helps clarify things.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman, all,
Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." [9:36],
if "shahr" = the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?" (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587&highlight=elke)
I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7:142, another word with the same root is used in 4:103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7:142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.
The complete term would take forty nights = fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan
meeqat = 40 nights (a period)
For me alahilat/new moon or crescent indicates the begenning and the end of the four restricted shahr (aljajj) among the twelve months in a year (9:36)
I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon" = shahr.
Maybe 58:4 brings an additionnal information about the word "shahr"
58:4. If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months (shahrayni mutatabiAAayni) before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the limits set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.
"shahrayni mutatabiAAayni/two consecutive shahr" and "to feed sixty poor people" is a coincidence or not?
I don't mean that shahr = 30 days but 58:4 can clarifiy the length of the month.
In 2:184, should we understand that for those who can do so but with difficulty, then to feed the same number of indigents than the number of days of abstinence (shahr ramadhan)?
1 day of abstinence = to feed 1 indigent
2 days of abstinence = 2 indigents
...
2:184. A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.
Looking for your thoughts
Thanks
Marie
peace all.
In SULTANATE OF OMAN (MUSCAT) the festival of KHAREEF is celeberated from 15TH JULY TO 14TH AUGUST, every year. Many visitors come from neighbouring countries like Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc.
I do not know why the Omanis do not follow the Islamic calendar, but follow the Christian calendar.
thanks.
Peace sister Marie, all,
Quote from: "marie"Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." [9:36],
if "shahr" = the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?" (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587&highlight=elke)
We should only count 12 even in the years where there are 13. Hence, we should simply not count the 13th moon. The difference between absolute number ("3adad") and count ("3idat") was explained in more details in the article. Please go over those details again and let me know if there is anything that specifically requires more clarification.
Quote from: "marie"I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7:142, another word with the same root is used in 4:103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7:142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.
It doesn't mean only the start of a period either. So we agree that it could mean EITHER end of a period OR start of a period.
Quote from: "marie"The complete term would take forty nights = fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan
meeqat = 40 nights (a period)
That is a perfect example of "meeqat" used to describe the END of a period. In this case, the end of a 40 night period. It is IMPOSSBILE to time a 40 day period with the "hilal" as a start and at the end. So how was "hilal" a timing device for Moses? It is a timing device because the extra 10 days is EXACTLY how long extra it takes for two consecutive full-moons to reach the "hilal" stage again. Hence, Like us Moses used the "hilal" as a timing device.
Remember, The God didn't just make up special timing devices for the 1400 year old Arabs. The same logical principles and timing devices were applied by previous messengers.
Quote from: "marie"For me alahilat/new moon or crescent indicates the begenning and the end of the four restricted shahr (aljajj) among the twelve months in a year (9:36)
9:36 doesn't mention "ahilat" so you must be refering to the wrong verse.
Quote from: "marie"I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon" = shahr.
What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?
Quote from: "marie"Maybe 58:4 brings an additionnal information about the word "shahr"
58:4. If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months (shahrayni mutatabiAAayni) before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the limits set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.
"shahrayni mutatabiAAayni/two consecutive shahr" and "to feed sixty poor people" is a coincidence or not?
I don't mean that shahr = 30 days but 58:4 can clarifiy the length of the month.
In 2:184, should we understand that for those who can do so but with difficulty, then to feed the same number of indigents than the number of days of abstinence (shahr ramadhan)?
1 day of abstinence = to feed 1 indigent
2 days of abstinence = 2 indigents
...
2:184. A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.
Firstly, 2:184 doesn't say how many indigents to feed. From the Arabic original and even the English translation you provided, it seems like it is feeding just ONE indigent for the 10 days (i.e., 10 days of abstinence = feed 1 indigent)
Abstaining for the period of two consecutive full moons means abstaining for ONE full-moon cycle (i.e., 1 day of abstinence = feeding of 2 indigents).
Secondly, please see 5:89 where feeding 10 indigents is equivalent to abstaining for 3 days.
So here we have 1 day of abstinence = 3.33 indigents!
Hence, indigents and days of abstinence are not the same and their ratio depends on what it is we are compensating for.
I hope this was useful.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman, all,
Thanks for your patience and understanding.
Quote from: "ayman"Peace sister Marie, all,
Quote from: "marie"Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." [9:36],
if "shahr" = the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?" (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587&highlight=elke)
We should only count 12 even in the years where there are 13. Hence, we should simply not count the 13th moon. The difference between absolute number ("3adad") and count ("3idat") was explained in more details in the article. Please go over those details again and let me know if there is anything that specifically requires more clarification.
Maybe I'm wrong but I disagree with you and I think that 9:36 is a proof that the word "sha-hr" doesn't mean the full moon because we can't count 12 full moon every year. I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (36:39).
Quote
Quote from: "marie"I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7:142, another word with the same root is used in 4:103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7:142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.
It doesn't mean only the start of a period either. So we agree that it could mean EITHER end of a period OR start of a period.
What is said in 7:142 is not a good example to solve our problem, Allah didn't appoint for Moses a specified sha-hr completed with ten but only forty nights whatever the stage of the moon.
About hilal (new moon or crescent), I consider it both the start and the end of a period or the end and the start of a period:
sha-hr 12........................sha-hr 1..............................sha-hr 2.............
---------------->hilal1--------------------> Hilal2----------------------->Hilal 3
For example
Hilal 1 is the end of the 12nd sha-hr and the start of the first sha-hr
Hilal 2 is the end of the first sha-hr and the start of the second sha-hr
Hilal 1 and 2 are the start and the end of the first sha-hr.
QuoteQuote from: "marie"I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon" = shahr.
What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?
This is a good question and I will try to answer it insha'Allah.
We read:
Shahru ramadana (2:185)
Inna AAiddata (the count)
alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara (12)
shahran (9:36)
minha arbaAAatun (Four of these twelve sha-hr) hurumun (are restricted) (9:36)
Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji (2:189)
"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for
1) the people as well as for 2) Alhajj.
"Alhajju"
ashhurun maAAloomatun (which have been appointed) (2:197) which correspond to the four restricted ashhurun.
"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for the twelve sha-hr.
In 2:185 we are told "whoever of you obseve/witness
alshsha-hra, then let him abstain
it"
"alshsha-hra" refers to "shahru ramadana/the period of ramadan", I prefer to use a period for the word "sha-hr" instead of a month or cycle of moon.
There are twelve periods per year which have a start and an end
When I observe a period of ramadan, I have to abstain it; to abstain this period which is one period among the twelve periods in the year.
How to determine the start and the end of any period among the tewelve periods, the response is provided in 2:189.
We are not asked to abstain the full moon or the new moon or the moon but a period of ramadan.
Allah didn't ask us to abstain 10 days (it is only guessing work) but to abstain a period of ramadan.
Quote
Quote2:184. A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.
Abstaining for the period of two consecutive full moons means abstaining for ONE full-moon cycle (i.e., 1 day of abstinence = feeding of 2 indigents).
I disagree "shahrayni mutatabiAAayni" in 58:4 correspond to two periods among the twelve periods in the year.
For the moment I don't adhere to the meaning of ramadan as extreme heat" and I lean towards early autumn. I think a period of ramadan is the first period of the year and occurs during the first season.
Maybe I'm wrong but it is simple to abstain during early automn than extreme heat; "Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship"(2:185).
The God knows best
Marie
Peace sister Marie, all,
Quote from: "marie"Maybe I'm wrong but I disagree with you and I think that 9:36 is a proof that the word "sha-hr" doesn't mean the full moon because we can't count 12 full moon every year.
It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.
Quote from: "marie"I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (36:39).
This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 21:33 but the moon in all its phases does.
Quote from: "marie"What is said in 7:142 is not a good example to solve our problem, Allah didn't appoint for Moses a specified sha-hr completed with ten but only forty nights whatever the stage of the moon.
Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7:142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.
Quote from: "marie"About hilal (new moon or crescent), I consider it both the start and the end of a period or the end and the start of a period:
sha-hr 12........................sha-hr 1..............................sha-hr 2.............
---------------->hilal1--------------------> Hilal2----------------------->Hilal 3
For example Hilal 1 is the end of the 12nd sha-hr and the start of the first sha-hr
Hilal 2 is the end of the first sha-hr and the start of the second sha-hr
Hilal 1 and 2 are the start and the end of the first sha-hr.
According to 7:142, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do timing/"meeqat" of a 40 day period with crescent/"hilal" BOTH at the start and at the end. You have to choose either start or end. Hence, crescent/"ahilat" are used to time EITHER the start OR the end of a period but not BOTH.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteWhat do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?
This is a good question and I will try to answer it insha'Allah.
We read:
Shahru ramadana (2:185)
Inna AAiddata (the count) alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara (12) shahran (9:36)
minha arbaAAatun (Four of these twelve sha-hr) hurumun (are restricted) (9:36)
Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji (2:189)
"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for 1) the people as well as for 2) Alhajj.
"Alhajju" ashhurun maAAloomatun (which have been appointed) (2:197) which correspond to the four restricted ashhurun.
"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for the twelve sha-hr.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.
Quote from: "marie"In 2:185 we are told "whoever of you obseve/witness alshsha-hra, then let him abstain it"
"alshsha-hra" refers to "shahru ramadana/the period of ramadan", I prefer to use a period for the word "sha-hr" instead of a month or cycle of moon.
There are twelve periods per year which have a start and an end
When I observe a period of ramadan, I have to abstain it; to abstain this period which is one period among the twelve periods in the year.
How to determine the start and the end of any period among the tewelve periods, the response is provided in 2:189.
"Period" is not the dictionary meaning of "shahr", so we must have very strong evidence from the great reading to support that it means "period".
I looked in 2:189 but I didn't find any answer on how we can determine 12 periods using the 24-26 crescents/"ahila(t)" as timing devices.
Could you please kindly translate "shahr" as "period" instead of leaving it as "shahr" and let us know how we can determine the start and end of any "period" among the twelve "periods" using the 24-26 crescents/"ahila(t)" in a year.
Quote from: "marie"We are not asked to abstain the full moon or the new moon or the moon but a period of ramadan.
Allah didn't ask us to abstain 10 days (it is only guessing work) but to abstain a period of ramadan.
Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something.
Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.
Quote from: "marie"I disagree "shahrayni mutatabiAAayni" in 58:4 correspond to two periods among the twelve periods in the year.
Please tell us what those mysterious "periods" are.
Quote from: "marie"For the moment I don't adhere to the meaning of ramadan as extreme heat" and I lean towards early autumn. I think a period of ramadan is the first period of the year and occurs during the first season.
Maybe I'm wrong but it is simple to abstain during early automn than extreme heat; "Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship"(2:185).
Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.
Thanks and all best wishes and peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
Quote from: "ayman"
It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.
Personnaly I understand from 9:36 that there are 12 fixed periods per years not 11 or 13 periods and I think it doesn't imply that we have to only count 12 sha-hr/12 full moons according to your reasoning.
QuoteQuote from: "marie"I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (36:39).
This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 21:33 but the moon in all its phases does.
I did not say it is just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit. The phases of the moon/full moon is the consequence of this movement... That seems logical when Allah speaks about the sun it is not a partial sun, idem for the moon.
For me I distinguish the full moon (alqamar) and its phases in the light of 36:39 and they are two distinct things.
QuoteEvery sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7:142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.
I disagree, this is your own deduction not supported by the quran, one can count 40 nights without using any crescent. Don't forget the sun, we can use it to count the number of days and years. Allah doesn't specify the sha-hr for moses, only 40 nights and the sun is sufficient for this task : 40 sunsets for 40 nights.
QuoteIt is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.
This is what is said in 2:189. alahillat are a timing mechanism for
1) the people and as well as for
2) alhajj.
Alhajj is in the periods (ash-hurun) which have been appointed = the four restricted) (2:197)
and I consider "sha-hr ramadan" as the first period of the four retricted period. Consequetly, alahillat are a timing mechanism for the period of ramadan.
Some years have 13 full moons doesn't imply that there are 13 period per year. I try only to follow the instruction given in 2:189, alahillat and not the full moon which are a timing mechanism for the four restricted period and also for the first restricted period= the period of ramadan.
Quote
"Period" is not the dictionary meaning of "shahr", so we must have very strong evidence from the great reading to support that it means "period".
Let us be patient to verify this meaning in the light of the quran.
QuoteSister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something
.
Early automn according to the preservation of land-game (the hemisphere north).
QuotePlease tell us how long is the period of abstinence.
This period is between two new moons (hilal), in 2004 the period of early automn (ramadan) start from 15 october november till 13 november.
QuoteSister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.
- extreme heat, rain that comes just before autumn, the period ending summer and begining autumn.
Allah knows best
Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Thank you for your response.
Quote from: "marie"Quote from: "ayman"
It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.
Personnaly I understand from 9:36 that there are 12 fixed periods per years not 11 or 13 periods and I think it doesn't imply that we have to only count 12 sha-hr/12 full moons according to your reasoning.
In other words, you don't see the difference between absolute number "3adad" and what The God told us to count "3idat" out of that "3adad". In this case, you have a major problem sister because there aren't exactly 12 crescents/"hilal" or 12 periods between 2 "hilal" per year and there are in fact 25 crescents on average. The period between each two consecutive "hilal" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilal"" periods in a year.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteThis is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 21:33 but the moon in all its phases does.
I did not say it is just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit.
So you are admitting that when The God says "al-qamar" swims in an orbit, He means not just the full-moon. I hope that you can clearly see that you are contradicting your earlier statement that "qamar" just means "full-moon".
Quote from: "marie"The phases of the moon/full moon is the consequence of this movement... That seems logical when Allah speaks about the sun it is not a partial sun, idem for the moon.
You can't say phases of the full-moon. The full-moon only has one phase by definition. The indisputable fact is that "moon/qamar" is not the same as "full-moon/shahr". Like "al-qamar"/the moon, when the sun has a partial or full eclipse it is still the same "sun" that The God speaks about and it didn't cease to exist.
Quote from: "marie"For me I distinguish the full moon (alqamar) and its phases in the light of 36:39 and they are two distinct things.
36:39 doesn't make such distinction. In fact, in 36:39 ALL the phases of the moon are "qamar" and even the "qamar" is LIKE an old curved sheath.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteEvery sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7:142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.
I disagree, this is your own deduction not supported by the quran, one can count 40 nights without using any crescent. Don't forget the sun, we can use it to count the number of days and years. Allah doesn't specify the sha-hr for moses, only 40 nights and the sun is sufficient for this task : 40 sunsets for 40 nights.
You are missing the point. The link is provided by the word "meeqat". It is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".
Moreover, if one uses the "hilal" for timing as The God told us, then the count becomes much simpler because one doesn't have to keep track of the days. All one has to do is to count two consecutive full-moons and then one "hilal" and there you have it, 40 nights. The God gives us the most robust and most efficient way possible.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteIt is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.
This is what is said in 2:189. alahillat are a timing mechanism for 1) the people and as well as for 2) alhajj.
I think you mean to say "alahillat are a timing mechanism for
people except Moses" according to your understanding of 7:142 above!
Quote from: "marie"Alhajj is in the periods (ash-hurun) which have been appointed = the four restricted) (2:197)
and I consider "sha-hr ramadan" as the first period of the four retricted period. Consequetly, alahillat are a timing mechanism for the period of ramadan.
But there aren't 12 "ahilat" in a year. There are on average 25 "ahilat" in a year. There is no link between "shahr" and "ahilat", linguistically and logically. Like in the case of Moses, the "hilal" is simply used to time the END of the 10 day period of "7ajj" and abstinence.
Quote from: "marie"Some years have 13 full moons doesn't imply that there are 13 period per year. I try only to follow the instruction given in 2:189, alahillat and not the full moon which are a timing mechanism for the four restricted period and also for the first restricted period= the period of ramadan.
The "shahr"/full moon is literally the marker for the four ristricted full moons/"ash-hur" and I already explained the difference between number and count. If you don't see the difference between number and count, then you better forget about "ahilat" because there are in fact on average
25 "ahilat"/crescents in a year!
Moreover, the period between each two consecutive "hilals" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilals"" periods in a year.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteSister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something
.
Early automn according to the preservation of land-game (the hemisphere north).
Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.
Moreover, Quraysh, the people of the prophet were traveling during the winter (see chapter 106), therefore it is highly unlikely that winter is the time for "7ajj".
We are also told that the time at which a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) was a HOT time of the year (9:81).
Quote from: "marie"QuotePlease tell us how long is the period of abstinence.
This period is between two new moons (hilal), in 2004 the period of early automn (ramadan) start from 15 october november till 13 november.
But "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works. The "hilal" means crescent moon (which could be the thinning crescent or the widening crescent) and that is an indisputable fact. Hence, there are on average 25 crescents/"ahila(t)" in a year. The period between each two consecutive "hilals" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilal"" periods in a year.
Quote from: "marie"QuoteSister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.
- extreme heat, rain that comes just before autumn, the period ending summer and begining autumn.
Which meaning out of the above is confirmed by the great reading?
I look forward to your answer.
Paix and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
I finally read the articles and the rest of the posts here, and I must commend you on a job well done! :D From all the conjecture and guess work that we've been through, this is the closest to reality and truth that I've seen. So far, I don't think there would be any confusion in this system.
Just wanted to mention that I found this connection interesting;
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
2:196. And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
7:142. And We appointed for Moses thirty nights and completed them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was completed at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: ?Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters.?
And this is my own addition... which probably doesn't make much sense. :oops:
28:27. He said: ?I wish you to marry one of my two daughters, on condition that you work for me through eight pilgrimage periods; if you complete them to ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, God willing, of the righteous.?
Peace brother Zein,
Thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. It is you who originally reminded me and got me started thinking about this issue again after I had given up. :)
You bring some more excellent clarifying evidence from the great reading. I will add this excellent evidence to the article.
With all best wishes and peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman, all,
Quote from: "ayman"2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
This expression "
let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (
IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period : sha-hr ramadan
To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.
Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?
The count of the months with God is twelve months
in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (9:36)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.
In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas during some seasons because there is no night or no day.
Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2:183), we have to follow the same commands.
Allah always fixes the days of fasting : 3 days (5:89), 3+7 days (2:196), two sha-hr/period (4:92, 58:4). The period is also fixed in 2:185 which is the period of ramadan.
2:197. Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj)
in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada
feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi
From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.
QuoteBut "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works.
Hallatun can mean the first rain
Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)
In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal. This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.
The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.
The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7:142 nor in 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17.
Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.
QuoteIt is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".
In 7:142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (17:12, 6:96).
Allah knows best
Marie
Peace sister Marie, all,
Quote from: "marie"This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period : sha-hr ramadan
To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.
In 2:185 we are directly and clearly told to abstain it and to complete the count of the days (also previously talked about in 2:184). If I tell you "abstain today and complete 10 days", what doesn't make sense about that?
It doesn't make sense to you because you ignore the Arabic meaning of "shahr" and wrongly interpret it as the fuzzy "period", which could be anything since even half a day is a period.
Quote from: "marie"Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?
Please do the math sister. 365/12 gives a greater number of days than the lunar cycle. Hence, the 12 lunar cycle you are proposing is not the 12 "shahr" talked about in 9:36. You will remain stuck here until you see that there is a difference between "3adad" and "3ida(t)" and that The God doesn't use them haphazardly.
Quote from: "marie"The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (9:36)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.
A day is a "period" and even half a day is a "period". So your saying that there is twelve periods doesn't tell us anything. You are forced to be vague because you know very well that there aren't 12 new-moon cycle in a year and that is a fact. This is why the so-called Islamic calendar that you are advocating is not in-sync with the year. You are advocating the current traditional calendar without knowing because you then contradict yourself and say that "ramadan" is in the autumn, which means that you would have to add a 13th month every three years to keep the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.
Quote from: "marie"In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas during some seasons because there is no night or no day.
Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2:183), we have to follow the same commands.
I agree.
Quote from: "marie"Allah always fixes the days of fasting : 3 days (5:89), 3+7 days (2:196), two sha-hr/period (4:92, 58:4). The period is also fixed in 2:185 which is the period of ramadan.
"Period" could be anything. Please be specific sister. If you think that "shahr" means "the period between two new moons" then say it but then your explanation would contradict 9:36 and your "ramadan" would be disconnected from the seasons.
According to my understanding, The God gives the complete info we need in 2:185.
Quote from: "marie"2:197. Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi
From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.
So now you change your mind and say that "when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition", in other words it is any period and that the "ahila(t)" are not timing devices for "al-7ajj"/the debate anymore. I am sorry sister but the "ahila(t)" definitely time the "7ajj" according to 2:189. My interpretation is that they time it by telling us when it ends.
Quote from: "marie"Hallatun can mean the first rain
That is not a meaning that is supported by the context in the great reading.
Quote from: "marie"Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)
Here is the meaning given by all classical Arabic dictionaries for "hilal"/plural:"ahila(t)":
الهِلالُ: غُرَّةُ القَمَرِ أو لِلَيْلَتَيْنِ أو إلى ثلاثٍ أو إلى سبعٍ وللَيْلَتَيْنِ من آخِرِ الشهرِ سِت وعشرينَ وسبعٍ وعشرينَ
Clearly, it doesn't mean the new moon but it means the crescent moon in general.
Notice how you say "hallatu al-qamar" so do you finally admit that "al-qamar" doesn't mean full-moon but simply means "moon". Please close this issue.
Quote from: "marie"In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal.
Who says so? I already gave you the example of autumn being the best time for deer hunting in the northern hemisphere. Please give any scientific references to what you are claiming.
Quote from: "marie"This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.
Since you start in autumn, I think that you mean to say autumn - early winter. Besides your alleged restricted new-moons would float every year and would not always occur in autumn so until you somehow fix this error, you can forget about autumn.
Quote from: "marie"The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.
No it is not what people normally associate with heat. In fact, in Arabia autumn is the rainy season.
Quote from: "marie"The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7:142 nor in 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17.
In all those instances (except 7:142 and 7:155) we are told about the specific timing device used. for example, we are told in another verse that the meeqat in 26:38 is "ywm al-zinat" (the time/day of beautification). As for the others, their timing is specifically "the day of judgment". In 7:142 "ahilat"/crescents, the general "meeqat" for people, is most likely to have been used because it is also talking about NIGHTS. We know that nights is when the crescent would be apparent.
Quote from: "marie"Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.
It is used for "kitab"/book and we are told about the specific times for learning the book/"salat" in the great reading.
Quote from: "marie"In 7:142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (17:12, 6:96).
Which is easiest and more efficient? counting 40 nights or counting 2 full-moons and 10 nights (or until the "hilal" stage appears). The answer is clear.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
In the light of the quran AAiddat or AAadad is a number and AAiddat is a fixed number:
The count (AAiddata) of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth (9:36)
so as to circumvent the count (AAiddata) that God has made restricted (9:37)
four of them are restricted (9:36)
Say: ?My Lord is fully aware of their number (AAiddatihim), none know them except for a few.? (18:22)
As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim (AAiddatuhunna) shall be three months.(65:4)
You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).
I try to use the quranic evidence and I don't trust the meaning given by the dictionnaries neither for salat nor for sha-hr...
I understand your view and I have mine.
I prefer to stop the debate at this stage looking for other quranic argument Insha'Allah. I believe the clear response is in the quran.
I always learn from your good articles.
Thanks
Peace and best wishes
Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.
Quote from: "marie"You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).
I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.
You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 9:36-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
Quote from: "ayman"Peace sister Marie,
Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.
I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons : 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.
The names of the lunar calendar periods have not systematically a link with the seasons.
Which of the two definitions should we believe?
For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.
Another problem, we cannot apply 2:187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot adjust 2:187 for some people.
QuoteQuote from: "marie"You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).
I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.
AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (9:36), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.
To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2:185) and not to 10 days.
QuoteYou say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 9:36-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.
By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 9:36-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.
The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.
Allah knows best
Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Quote from: "marie"I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons : 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.
There is no reference to "kharif" or "qayth" in the great reading. This doesn't mean that those seasons don't exist.
What you have been taught in the school is Modern Arabic defintions NOT Classical Arabic definitions. We know from archeological and linguistic evidence that the Arabs used 4, 5, and 6 season systems. Even their 4 season system was different than the modern 4 season system that you were taught in school. Here is what Lisan Al-3arab says about the definition of the seasons in the 4 season system that some Arabs used:
العرب تقول : السنة أَربعة أَزمان , ولكل زمن منها ثلاثة أَشهر , وهي فصول السنة : منها فصل الصيف وهو فصلُ ربيع الكَلإِ آذارُ ونَيْسانُ وأَيّارُ , ثم بعده فصل القيظ حَزِيرانُ وتَموزُ وآب , ثم بعده فصل الخريف أَيْلُولُ وتَشْرِين وتَشْرين , ثم بعده فصل الشتاء كانُونُ وكانونُ وسُباطُ .
From the above, you can see that even for the Arabs that used 4 seasons "sayf" was spring, "qayth" was summer, "kharif" was autumn, and "shitaa" was winter.
Please remember that what we are after is not how present day school children and modern Arabs understand terms such as "sayf" but how a "pre-quranic" Arab hearing Chapter 106 would have understood it.
Quote from: "marie"For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.
You can lean towards anything you want but you have to consider the fact that when a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) was a HOT time of the year (9:81). You can't ignore that.
Quote from: "marie"Another problem, we cannot apply 2:187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot adjust 2:187 for some people.
According to your argument, "in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer" there would also be no "salat al-fajr" or "salat al-3ishaa" for some people. Of course, this is incorrect.
Quote from: "marie"Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.
If you take "shahr" to mean "period between any two phases of the moon" then in every year there is going to be more than 12 periods, there will be 12.3 periods in your calendar. If you take "shahr" to mean "full moon" then you would get exactly 12 full moons and you would get a year with 13 full-moons every three years, however as I indicated since we are talking about "3idat" and not "3adad", you simply don't count the 13th moon. The would automatically adjust the full-moons to coincide with the seasons.
Quote from: "marie"AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (9:36), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.
You are correct. However, in 2:184 we see the term "ma3doodat"/few/counted which we don't see in 9:36. The completion of the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" is always 10 in the great reading and brother Zein already kindly provided the references.
Quote from: "marie"To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2:185) and not to 10 days.
Why does The God need to say "complete the count" if as you claim the count is a known period between two new-moons. This would be redundant.
Also, keep in mind that you have ZERO evidence for your "ahilat" meaning of "new-moons" since ALL the dictionaries say that they mean "crescents" in general (both thinning and widening crescents). Hence, if we take your interpretation for a period being the period between two "hilals" then it could be either 3 days or a median of 25 days.
Quote from: "marie"By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 9:36-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.
If you interpret "shahr" to mean period and see no difference between "3idat" and "3adad" then you are indeed violating 9:36. As you said, you are now counting 13 periods while 9:36 says to count only 12. I don't know what you mean by "imaginary". During that 30 day "period" will you just imagine that time stopped and that reality ceased to exist for 30 days?
Quote from: "marie"The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.
If you take period to mean "period between two new moons" and you want to keep it in line with the seasons then your calendar system has 13 periods in some years. The Georgian solar calendar has some arbitrary periods with 31 days and others with 30 and 28/29 days to make them 12. The so-called Islamic calendar has 12.3 months every year and not 12. Only in the system that I understood from the great reading do we count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE year and it is in-sync with the seasons.
I hope this helps and as usual The God knows best.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
Several points in your reasoning remains fuzzy and approximate. A clear soklution should be based on all evidence quranic and this is not the case because that doesn't fit your final conclusion.
We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc
MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.
In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.
There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in 28:27 and 7:142.
We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7:142, 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17). Salat (timed book) is a good example.
We have not the same understanding of the verse 9:36.
Agree to disagree for the moment.
Thanks for patience and perseverence.
Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Quote from: "marie"We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc
I agree.
Quote from: "marie"MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.
In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.
Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2:184 because then you are building a circular argument.
Quote from: "marie"There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in 28:27 and 7:142.
Is the number 10 in those verses not a counted number?
Sister, you have got to use some deductive reasoning and you can't expect the answer to be presented on a silver platter as "completing the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" = 10".
Quote from: "marie"We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7:142, 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17). Salat (timed book) is a good example.
Actually, I have the same understanding as you of "meeqat" but it is you who doesn't have the same understanding as me. This is for the simple reason that I see "meeqat" as the timing of the START and/or END of something while you see it ONLY as the start. Therefore my understanding encompasses your understanding. So far, you have brought zero evidence that "meeqat" only means the start of something and never the end. The example of "salat" actually completely negates your understanding because "salat" has a START and an END.
Quote from: "marie"We have not the same understanding of the verse 9:36.
Agree to disagree for the moment.
The only reason why we have different understanding of 9:36 is because you don't see a difference between "3idat" and "3adad". On the other hand, I believe and logically one can see that The God doesn't use those two different terms haphazardly. Let's at least agree on that.
We also agree that when one counts more or less than EXACTLY 12 "shahr", one would be in violation of 9:36. In the system as I understand it, one ALWAYS counts EXACTLY 12 "full-moons" EVERY year, while in your understanding because you don't see the difference between "3idat" and "3adad", you are forced to count 13 in some years to keep your alleged "period between two new moons" in line with the seasons.
Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time. :)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
QuoteNotice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2:184 because then you are building a circular argument.
In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (2:80, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20).
I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.
You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.
QuoteThank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time. :)
This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.
For the moment, I have not the response to several points.
Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you :twisted:
Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a guide and especially during the night of alqadr (97:1)
If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of alqadr (97:1-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (36:39)
97:1 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati
alqadri97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of
alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu
alqadriI wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon :twisted:
97:3 The Night of
alqadri is better than a thousand
months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu
alqadri khayrun min alfi
shahrin36:39 And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara
qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi
Peace
Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Quote from: "marie"In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (2:80, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20).
I totally agree, "maAAdoodat" doesn't mean a known number but a few days (a "few" by definition is between 3-10) and not specifically 10 days.
Quote from: "marie"I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.
To complete "alAAiddat" of "maAAdoodat", which we already agree means a few (between 3-10) means complete/reach the maximum of a few/"maAAdoodat" which is 10.
Quote from: "marie"You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.
But "ahilat" are only described as "mawaqeet" for people and for "7ajj" not for "ramadan". We agree that the term "ramadan" is season related. In other words, scorching heat or in your case the time between "sayf" and "kharif" (which is called "qayth" according to Lisan Al-3arab).
The term "mawaqeet" is the timing of the start, end, or start and end. One cannot use "hilal" to time any 12 periods because there are actually 25 "hilals" on average in a year. Please remember that "hilal" denotes both thinning and widening crescents.
One cannot use "hilal" to time both the start and end of the several 40 day periods talked about in the great reading or the 10 day period of "7ajj" and of abstinence. Hence, it must be that the "hilal" in those cases is used to time either the end or the beginning. Given the evidence, it is most likely to be used as a timing device for the end of "7ajj". Remember 2:189 and the example of ENTERING through the obvious/clear and apparent one front door ("the obvious one full-moon") and not the non-obvious back of the house ("the unobvious crescents"). However, there is nothing that says that we can't EXIT the house through the unobvious back doors.
Quote from: "marie"This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.
For the moment, I have not the response to several points.
Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you :twisted:
Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a guide and especially during the night of alqadr (97:1)
If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of alqadr (97:1-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (36:39)
97:1 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri
97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadri
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon :twisted:
97:3 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin
36:39 And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi
C'est magnifique. :) Thank you sister for your excellent observation. When we reach the proper understanding everything falls into place and the age old mystery of "laylatu al-qadr" solves itself. I didn't even notice that the article inadvertently solved when exactly "laylatu al-qadr" occurs until after I had completed it.
Paix and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful 8)
About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings :
Quote6:96. Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 36:38, 41:12, 76:16
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the
the night of abstinence :
1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of
dawn;
Allah said that
the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of
dawn (97:5)
I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 89:1-2 and 2:187:
1) The night
and
2) the dawn
Quote89:1. By the dawn.
Waalfajri
89:2. And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin
We can see a connection between these verses :twisted:
89:3.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
Maybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc
2N (even)---> 1D (odd)
3N---> 2D
4N---> 3D
5N---> 4D
6N---> 5D
7N---> 6D
8N---> 7D
9N---> 8D
10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)
Looking for your toughts
Thanks
Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Quote from: "marie"I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful 8)
Quand j'?tais petit, la langue Fran?aise ?tait ma seconde langue apr?s l'Arabe. Mais maintenant je manque du pratique et ce n'est plus facile pour moi. Heureusement, mon ?pouse est un professeur de Fran?ais. :)
Quote from: "marie"About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings :
Quote6:96. Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 36:38, 41:12, 76:16
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :
1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)
I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 89:1-2 and 2:187:
1) The night
and
2) the dawn
Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
Quote from: "marie"Quote89:1. By the dawn.
Waalfajri
89:2. And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin
We can see a connection between these verses :twisted:
89:3.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
Maybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc
2N (even)---> 1D (odd)
3N---> 2D
4N---> 3D
5N---> 4D
6N---> 5D
7N---> 6D
8N---> 7D
9N---> 8D
10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence
It makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup.
Paix,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
Your French is perfect :)
QuoteSister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
No need to ask the permission.
All praise to the God
Quote1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence
Just a little remark, in 89:2, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong, to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights:
1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 Ten nights (89:2)
......1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2:184)
1: the night of alqadr; the night of the first days 1 of abstinence
10: the 10th night is the night of the 10th days 10 of abstinence
In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.
Peace and all best wishes
Your sister Marie
Peace sister Marie,
Thank you for your kind help sister. :)
Quote from: "marie"Just a little remark, in 89:2, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong, to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights:
97:1-5 we hear the night of the measure being peace until "al-fajr".
89:1-2 we hear about "al-fajr" and then ten nights.
Let's call the night of "qadr"/measure Q.
Q to fajr........ 1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 fajr + Ten nights (89:1-2)
................1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2:184)
Q: the night of alqadr; the night before the first day 1 of abstinence
Remember we have to witness the "shahr"/full moon first before we abstain.
10: the 10th night is the night of the 10th day 10 of abstinence with which we complete the abstinence as per 2:187 ("atimu al-siyam ila al-layl").
On that 10th night we would see the thinning crescent signaling the end of the abstinence and hence not abstain the next day (Just in case we forget to keep track of the number of days).
Quote from: "marie"In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.
I agree. However, in the case of abstinence in 2:187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
QuoteIn the case of abstinence in 2:187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.
Agree, the night of "qadr"/measure is the night before the first day of abstinence, but we start to follow what is said in 2:187 from the night "qadr"/measure in other word :
1) It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually.
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn
The night after the 10th day of abstinence is an ordinary night where we have no obligation to follow about eating, drinking and the sexual relations with our spouse.
In my opinion, the night of "qadr"/measure is the first night of abstinence and the 10th night is the 10th nights of abstinence.
We have to complete the 10th day of abstinence until the night not with one more night. The 11st night should be not counted because it is an ordinary night where we have no obligation (2:187 is not applied for the 11st night).
We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2:187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.
When we witness the full moon of the night of "qadr"/measure, we have to abstain it and wehave to apply 2:187 from this first night.
Consequently, 10 nights and ten days of abstinence according the quran.
I wonder a question, if to complete the count is equivalent to ten dfays, the re is no need to witness the hilal to stop abstinence.
According 2:189, there is no mention to use hilal/cresnet for abstinence.
Looking for your comment
Peace
Marie
Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,
I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.
Peace be with you.
Zein
Peace sister Marie,
I would agree with your understanding except a problem comes up when we compare 2:187, 97:5 and 89:1-3.
The "fajr" in 89:1, 2:187, and 97:5 is probably the same one.
Quote from: "marie"We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2:187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.
I agree that we start
after the "fajr". Verses 89:1-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.
Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(97:1-5, 2:187) - (89:1-2)
"fajr" is common.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Brs Ayman, Zein,
Quote from: "zenje"Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,
I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.
Peace be with you.
Zein
Thanks for your nice words. All the readers of this debate are so patient :)
Our Lord grant us patience, and make firm our foothold.
Quote from: "ayman"
I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 89:1-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.
Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(97:1-5, 2:187) - (89:1-2)
I arrived to the same conclusion than you this morning, praise to the God :)
Thanks
Marie
Salam brother Ayman, all,
If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions :
Abstinence:
1) How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?
The timed salat
2) How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11:114 and 17:78 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise ?
All comment appreciated.
Thanks
Marie
Salaams marie,
you will figure it out sooner or later:
The fish can't swim on land,and neither are the eskimos going to make their houses of brick,if they only have ice Allahs will show them how to adopt ice.
And the quran can't be applied every where as it stands , but with modifications it can.
But isn't it available in modified forms to all nations - but not through the arabs but from Allah.And some of these forms are far better then the form of the arabic quran,As people have progressed so Allah has given them improved versions of the quran.And isn't this why even the arabs are followers nowadays.
No reply required , thanks,Salaams.
peace
Peace sister Marie, all,
Quote from: "marie"If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions :
Abstinence:
1) How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?
The timed salat
2) How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11:114 and 17:78 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise ?
I think that to answer those questions we need to look at the purpose of the timed learning connection/"salat".
First, let's start with the learning connection/"salat". The purpose is to remember The God and we accomplish this by studying His signs. The God gave us the best times to accomplish the purpose.
The time of "fajr" is when light starts to emerge and we wake up with a clear mind. I have personally made most of the big breakthroughs in my understanding of the great reading and even in my professional work during that time.
The time after sunset is when we generally get off work and go home. This is also a relaxing time where we can study the great reading more effectively.
Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.
As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.
I hope this helps and all comments would be appreciated.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
QuoteNow if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.
You are right.
I think the dawn and the dusk are a temporal indication, the goal is to consecrate a moment to read and study the divine message and His signs before starting and at the end of our activities, this is a good food mind.
In73:20 we are told to study what we can of the quran and there is no mention of time; one can choose the good moment in harmony whith his activity to do it :
So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that
there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness. (
73:20)
QuoteAs for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.
You are correct, the God give us a temporal indication and it is not an obligatory condition to abstain during a counted days.
The God describes the night as a cover, and sleep for resting and the day to move about in (25:47) and this is also a criterion that one can used to do both salat and abstinence independently of the sun movement.
Before I believed that 11:114 & 17:78 are only adressed to the prophet but now I change my mind about it. Praise to the God.
Starting and finishing our activity by reading and studying is a good food for our mind :)
Thanks for your helpful inputs
Peace
Marie
Peace be upon you Ayman and Marie,
I don't know if I can get used to all this agreement! :D
Just kidding.
I agree as well. Marie you mentioned the night for sleeping. In those areas where the sun stays up, the people still go to sleep. They don't stay up just because the sun never goes down.
So while we are in areas that are unusual, we should make the adjustments.
I have to woder why people ended up migrating to areas where the day and night were different from most of the earth? I believe that those places weren't meant for people to remian there, but only to go to for a while, then come back, but that is all just guessing on my part. Indeed the earth is spacious for anyone that wants to sleep everyday in the darkness of night.
I'm rambling so I will say Peace :D
Peace all
Ayman
First i commend the great effortss you have made trying to solve the mistery... irrespective of whether the conclusions of the article are correct or not i think your work is a rich contribution to solving of the mistery...at least in respect of opening many diferent horizons of how this matter could be approached....
without debating the validity of all the arguments(for example whats the real meaning of the word shahr) and conclusions proposed in the article here are 3 points that seems very subjective from my point of view....
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
third question
how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
wait to hear and learn from you more
best wishes, Zlatan
Peace brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.
Quote from: "Zlatan"first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?
The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD":
1. Highest point of the sun:
وقتِ الضُّحَى عند ارتفاعِ النهار
Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.
فَهُنّ مُعْتَرِضاتٌ ، والحَصى رَمِضٌ ،
والرِّيحُ ساكنةٌ ، والظِّلُّ مُعْتَدِلُ
2. What comes when the sun is still hot:
فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها
Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.
3. Red eyes:
فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ
So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?
The first full moon after the summer solstice:
1. Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
2. Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
3. Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).
Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.
Now, let me answer your third question first.
Quote from: "Zlatan"third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
From 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (9:86) was a hot time of the year (9:81) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".
Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year:
ترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ : رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه
التَّرَمُّضُ صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته
They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.
Another point is in 5:2 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".
Quote from: "Zlatan"second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman, Marie, all...
Thank you for posting this article at a time i really needed to research it..
I had some questions, but i think the majority have been answered in the course of this discussion quite satisfactorily...the rest i will soon get to...wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?
Also, sister marie wrote :
QuoteI wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon
This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...
Excellent article though and quite logical and easy to understand methodically...
Nadia
Peace all,
For how many nights the red full moon is visible?
For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 16:2 16:102 bringing the commands of the lord.
16:1 أتى أمر الله فلا تستعجلوه سبحنه وتعلى عما يشركون
16:2 ينزل الملئكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا فاتقون
16:3 خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون
Peace sister Nadia,
It is good to see you back on the forum :)
Quote from: "savage_carrot"wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?
Feeding of the poor would also be another mean of control since it is mentioned 5:95 with abstinence as corresponding to "qala'id" in 5:97. Moreover, feeding of the poor is mentioned in other signs as a substitute for abstinence.
Quote from: "savage_carrot"Also, sister marie wrote :
QuoteI wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon
This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...
It is most likely that the great reading was descended in Arabia in the Northern hemisphere. Now is the night of measure only one where the great reading was descended long time ago or does it occur again and again at the specified time period?
I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Someone,
Quote from: "Someone"For how many nights the red full moon is visible?
For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 16:2 16:102 bringing the commands of the lord.
16:1 أتى أمر الله فلا تستعجلوه سبحنه وتعلى عما يشركون
16:2 ينزل الملئكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا فاتقون
16:3 خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون
I agree that 97:1 could be either interpreted to be talking about what we are reading (the scripture) or the "ru7"/spirit but either way the conclusion is valid. Don't forget that the "ru7" is what brought the scripture (see 42:52, 40:15, 26:192-195). The link is provided because the great reading was descended at the time of the scorching full-moon (2:185) and the great reading (or the ru7 that brought it) was descended in the night of measure (97:1).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace to you dear Ayman, all
Quote from: "ayman"
Quote from: "Zlatan"second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
I hope this helps.
thanks for the explanations, now it seems less subjective to me...(with the strong emphasis on less...)
Ayman, please, can you explain shortly how do you deduce it?
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....
what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction
by default...
at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution
Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan
Peace be upon you all,
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other. I think that is what we all lack and which is why we are having trouble accepting this, or perhaps still not 100% at the answer. I feel comfortable with this answer that Ayman has brought, but not 100% and I cant explain why.
Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?
Maythe God increase our KNOWlegde.
Peace brother Ayman, Kyle, all...
Thank u for the observations on the abstinence and the night of measure...much appreciated!
QuoteI tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.
This way we would have at the very least, two nights of measure globally per one year, or 12 moon counts...as it can't be one given the nature of earth as spherical...I too am leaning toward this...have u any research that might lead u to believe that the 'night' of measure is only one? I haven't come across it but then again, it's easy to deduce that one night of measure would be equal in both parts of the globe thus leading to equality and once per ramadan even if it does occur twice annually in the big global yearly picture...one could witness the phenomenon twice obviously but don't need to complete the count once we already have in a year...that were the couple of observations we had while discussing it...
Also brother Ayman, if u can, please can u clarify the count as being 10 days maximum...i mean the meaning of the arabic word used as being a max of 10 and any other relevant info pertaining to this as i can't understand the meaning clearly enough to be able to explain it....Thank you!
Brother Kyle:
QuoteAlso, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?
I think that the silence is part of a special fast/sign rather than a regular required thing in ramadan(i could be wrong)...Abstaining from food and drink and feeding the needy seems to be something that can be done on a regular basis yearly without much changing in the norm...apart from a lot of discipline required...Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?
Nadia
Peace be upon you kyle
Quote from: "idolfree1"
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.
very well noticed!
this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...
Peace, Zlatan
Peace Ayaman
Takeing your article on ramadan
Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 2:46 AM EDT
Full moon is June 22 2005
So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
Peace Saleem
Peace be upon you Nadia,
QuoteNot talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?
I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.
In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.
I don't know, just trying to keep up in this discussion :D
Peace be upon you Zlatan,
Quoteidolfree1 wrote:
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.
very well noticed!
this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...
Thank you brother. I am sure you could expand on this, assuming you are still practicing agriculture as you had chosen at one point.
I would love that oppurtunity to be self substaining (on a human level of course).
Peace be upon you all,
Just wanted to copy and paste Saleems question so it is not missed, I would like that confirmation as well so I can be sure and have more of a basis to analyze this understanding.
QuoteTaking your article on ramadan
Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 2:46 AM EDT
Full moon is June 22 2005
So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
In regard to saleem's question... just to clarify, this is NOT for the whole world, I don't think southern hemisphere has the same deal. :wink:
Peace!
Peace Ayman, and all
In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.
I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.
Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.
All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.
I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. :)
Peace Kyle,
QuoteI am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.
Indeed, language is a very powerful tool for communication outside and within...so lack of outside would certainly stress the communication within.
QuoteIn any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.
Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....
Nadia
Peace be upon you Nadia,
QuoteCould be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....
Yes, at this stage it is still open and I agree that the abstaining from talk could be specific based. But just want to be sure that we do not disregard this SIGN that was given not once, but twice in this reading. May the Lord increase us in knowledge.
Peace dear brother Zlatan,
Quote from: "Zlatan"QuoteFrom the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
Ayman, please, can you explain shortly how do you deduce it?
From the answer of 3 we can deduce that the time of shahr ramadan is the time of restriction and that the restriction occurs in the hot time of the year (after the summer solstice). From the answer of 1 we determined that the shahr of ramadan is the first shahr/full moon after the summer solstice.
Hence, the scorching full moon is the first of the restricted full moons. Here is your question 2:
Quote from: "Zlatan"how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
I hope that you can now see the answer.
Quote from: "Zlatan"However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2:185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need to find out exactly when to begin the abstinence. Also, once we understand the completion of the count to mean "ten" then we also know how long exactly the abstinence is for. Hence, 2:185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose.
Quote from: "Zlatan"i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".
Quote from: "Zlatan"i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...
So far, this is the most direct, clear and straight forward answer on this subject. However, I am not particularly attached to anything except The Truth. Hence, if someone finds a more direct, clear, and straight forward answer tomorrow, then I am all for it.
Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.
Quote from: "Zlatan"however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.
Quote from: "Zlatan"when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...
Yes, even now people here in America who have NEVER read the great reading restrict the hunting of deer during the summer and the hunting season begins in November. So everybody knows when the times of hunting restrictions are. I am sure it is the same in Europe and other places that properly manage wild life according to The God's natural laws (even though they may not realize it).
Quote from: "Zlatan"at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution
Thank you for your kind words brother. We should all do our learning connection/"salat" as long as we are alive. I pray that I do not stop studying until I die. I can only hope for mercy from our Lord. I would be more than satisfied with just that.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Saleem, all,
Quote from: "salgan"Takeing your article on ramadan
Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 2:46 AM EDT
Full moon is June 22 2005
So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
Thank you for the information. One thing we have to remember is that The God tells us that the whole night until dawn is one unit (73:20). Hence, we should not let the arbitrary start of day at midnight (12AM) confuse us.
I was not planning to look up the info until we get closer to the time. However, I was having a discussion on the subject and a kind sister pointed out that the full moon occurs shortly after 12AM on June 22. Hence, for those of us in the northern hemisphere we would actually start the abstinence from the dawn of June 22 for 10 days. I haven't looked up the info for the southern hemisphere, but I think that the time for their restricted full moons should be coming up shortly.
If you have the opportunity, go out and watch the full moon on the night of the 21-22 June with your family. It is going to be a beautiful sight, especially so close to the solstice. It cannot get any better and I know my children love to watch the moon and stars. Don't forget to take your cameras. :)
If weather doesn't permit where you are then enjoy some internal peace.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Someone, all,
Quote from: "Someone"In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.
I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.
Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.
All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.
I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. :)
I think I agree with everthing you say and you are not going too far. The only question I would ask is for you to go further and clarify by translating "laylat al-qadr".
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace dear brother Ayman, all !
Quote from: "ayman"
Quote from: "Zlatan"However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2:185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need
Ok it may be so, but what about the determinining of all of the restricted periods?
Its far from being direct and clear cut given ...compare it to the god `s decree on number of the restricted shahrs,
the way it is said(9:36), it is very unlike it and very unlike the way other numerous decrees and restrictions throughout the book are given?
why the god havent said:"
o you who believe ashaurul hurumu are:1..,2...,3...,4... or from... to ..."or something similar to it...
thats the way He decres when He is decreeing something to people...there`s no beating around bush...
Can you found any decree that you believe is from the god which is given in a fashion similar to the way (as you understand it now) restricted periods are given?QuoteQuote from: "Zlatan"i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".
i dont understand, can you elaborate a bit more, maybe its my poor english now? what would be meaning of the expression "timed book" in english?
QuotePlease remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.
very wisely said! thanks for the reminder.... i should really try this tactic
QuoteQuote from: "Zlatan"however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.
Of course everything has universal importance, however, correct me if i am wrong, it may be either direct or indirect....that is, the perpetual importance of some of the book`s sayings may be exactly in their temporary importance, significance or validity...i mean we can not applie them directly but we can deduce from them and thus indirectly extract wisdom(like some regulations concerning the prophet only-related solely to the prophet).
By reading of some regulations which are highy culturaly or similarly conditioned we learn from it that all the regulations are not for all the times and all the people and that everything is relative...or that following of the essence of the god`s messages can take different forms of expressions depending of conditions...( for example what about eskimos in the case when they are having not water no sand to rub with as ordered in 5:6?)
Thus for our generation the significance of the periods of the restrictions(even if we do not know when they are) might be the message that the very essence of the righteous life is in a very strict respecting of the God given borders and instructions,
upholding of the laws, contracts and promises and all obligations and particularly peace treaties.....what say you?
anyway, thanks for advices and all the info!
Peace and best wishes, Zlatan
Ayman, let me import an another issue which maybe might shed some light on this topic...
Tell me, how do we determine the amount of ransom(money or resources) which murderer should pay in the cases of killing.... if I am not mistaken it is a prescribed solution for some cases of killing....
but nowhere the book prescribes the amount of the ransom...
similarly, we do not find what are prescribed restricted shahrs...
has this reasoning any validity?
best wishes, Zlatan
Peace Ayman, all
I have studied your article more carefully and here are my results ...i believe you will take my comment postively, nevertheless i would like to state that i have bolded some of my comments with no purpose of hostility and blind opposition but in order to make them more difficult to escape readers` attention
Quote from: "ayman"Peace brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.
Quote from: "Zlatan"first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?
The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD":
1. Highest point of the sun:
وقتِ الضُّحَى عند ارتفاعِ النهار
Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.
فَهُنّ مُعْتَرِضاتٌ ، والحَصى رَمِضٌ ،
والرِّيحُ ساكنةٌ ، والظِّلُّ مُعْتَدِلُ
2. What comes when the sun is still hot:
فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها
Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.
3. Red eyes:
فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ
So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?
The first full moon after the summer solstice:
1. Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
2. Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
3. Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).
Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.
Now, let me answer your third question first.
Quote from: "Zlatan"third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
From 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (9:86) was a hot time of the year (9:81) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".
Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year:
ترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ : رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه
التَّرَمُّضُ صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته
They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.
Another point is in 5:2 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".
Quote from: "Zlatan"second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that
shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(9:81)and where was fighting, plus that there was some fighting during shahr haram(2:217)....
The problem is that
there is no proof presented that the fighting in 2:217 and chapter 9 is the same fighting...even
if there is evidence to it,
it would only prove that
some of the asshurul hurumu coincide with the hot time of the year
but not all of them...the ashurul hurumu might started in spring and thus one or two of them would still coincide with the hot time and the big fightings
so there is no proof in the article that all of the ashurul hurumu fall in the hot time or summer...and particularly, though there might be room for claiming that shahr of ramadan is one of the ashurul hurumu,
there is no any evidence in the article that the shahr of ramadan is the first of the four shahrs....
I hope that you will give your answers in january when as you have said you will have more time, until then i must commend your great debating at SRI ... i am reading its archives these days....your knowledge, reasoning, wit, and detail, patient and very lucid responses and debating in very wise and nice manner is truly fascinating to me... may The God honors us with more of his servants like you....
Peace and all the best wishes, Zlatan
Peace Dear brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and good questions.
Quote from: "Zlatan"no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(9:81)and where was fighting, plus that there was some fighting during shahr haram(2:217)....
I think that a good approach is to start by agreeing on what we agree on.
Do you agree:
1. That a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) in a hot time of the year (9:81).
2. That "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended (2:185).
If you agree with the above, do you agree:
3. That the meaning of "ramadhan" is "scorching/burning".
4. That the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon".
If you agree with the above, do you agree:
5. That the hottest time of the year occurs after the summer solstice.
6. That the first "shahr"/full moon after the summer solstice is reddish in color (as if it is burning).
Also, do you agree:
7. That "sayf" means spring and "shitaa" means winter.
8. That "7ajj"/debate/bargain is during the count of 4 "ash-hur hurum".
9. That Quraysh/"quraysh?" traveled in spring and winter (chapter 106) and hence those cannot be the same times for the "7ajj"/debate/bargain.
Let's first see if we agree on the above and then continue.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
peace dear brother Ayman
QuoteDo you agree:
Quote1. That a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) in a hot time of the year (9:81).
2. That "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended (2:185).
ok
QuoteIf you agree with the above, do you agree:
3. That the meaning of "ramadhan" is "scorching/burning".
4. That the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon".
not 100% sure but for the sake of the argument i`ll agree
QuoteIf you agree with the above, do you agree:
5. That the hottest time of the year occurs after the summer solstice.
not sure but for the sake of argument ill accept it
Quote6. That the first "shahr"/full moon after the summer solstice is reddish in color (as if it is burning).
now you are switching between two meanings of the word... yes the meanigs are related but nevertheless distinct...If you have decided to consider ramadan as hotest/burning you can not now use it as redish for the same word in the same verse...
(just)for example if qwm means 1 to stand and 2 support you can not use both of the meanings for the same signle occurence of this word in the same verse...only if there are two occurences, only then you might switch from one meaning to the other
QuoteAlso, do you agree:
7. That "sayf" means spring and "shitaa" means winter.
8. That "7ajj"/debate/bargain is during the count of 4 "ash-hur hurum".
9. That Quraysh/"quraysh?" traveled in spring and winter (chapter 106) and hence those cannot be the same times for the "7ajj"/debate/bargain.
although i am not sure of all the translations you suggest here, BUT now i better understand where you stand :lol:
so because they were allegedly traveling during spring and autumn you think hajj couldnt possibly be in those months and baecause ramadan is in summer all of the restriction
shahrs or ashuru must be placed in summer....hmm...it sounds logical, however 2:185 mention of traveling during ramadan?
btw from where did you get hajj is bargain?
QuoteLet's first see if we agree on the above and then continue.
nice methodology
Peace and all best wishes,
may your lord strenghteen your feet brother, for your efforts in serving Him and debating in an excellent manner!
btw here are more of my thouhts which occured to me these days...
have you noticed that your timing of ramadan greatly coincided with that of anwar goins who concluded based on chapter 53 that chapter alegedly mentions rising of the star sirius in the time of the beggining of the revelation that is shahr of ramadan, and thus Anwar have located it after summer solistice and it allegedly begins with the rise or fall (i can not remmember now) of sirius?
(let us more carefully study 2:197 i believe it is a
key and a straightforward answer to the topic...)
Ayman, what is your translation of 2:197 hajj is in:
1 in well-known ashuru
2 in known ashuru
3 in assigned ashuru
4 in marked ashuru
5 in appointed ashuru
6 in discernible ashuru
7?
also, the vocalisation of the verse is a bit strang to me... wouldnt ashurAN malumatAN better fit to these translations above?expression al hajju ashurUN malumatUN gives me impression of meaning "al haj(itself)
is ashur malumat" and not "al hajj is
in ashur malumat"...
my arabic is pretty poor, can you explain this shortly?
Zlatan
Peace Ayman all
Here are more thoughts that maybe might help...
Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?
that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...
btw how do you translate it?
the day of the great(er/est) hajj or the great(er/est) day of the hajj?
Here are some thoughts and possible answers on why theres no a direct answer or solution to the timing of the ahsurul hurumu in the script...
they are maybe crazy however many of the great ideas seemed as crazy at its begginings...so let us at least take them into consideration...we have nothing to lose...
1. The abrogation theory(2:106), or the theory of literal abrogation is true,....the verse x(cant remember the exact number) says that the messenger will forget some of the revelation- "sa nuqriuke fa la tansaa, illaa ma shaaallah" "we will surely teach you(or read to you) and you wont forget, except what the god wills"
2. the message of 3/7 is that the meaning of some of the books messages is known only to The God...
3. 22:52-53 says that theres is some falsehood in this scripture instiled by the devil [/b]just like was the case when all of the previous messengers recited The God`s messages, in order that this devil`s injection might serve as a means of misdirecting for the rejecters...and this falsehood are things mentioned in the book but for which theres no explanation in the rest of the book
QuoteIs there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?
that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...
Ayman is there any chance the archeology might reveal this fact?
Let me remind you also that the book do not defines, although prescribes the ransom or the prize that is to be payed by killer in the case the murder wasnt intentional or is forgiven by the family/society?
Can this in any way help us to resolve ahurul hurumu which are also prescribed but not( as it seems now) directly defined?
best wishes, Zlatan
Is there any phenomenon in the heaven that is present during four months only while absent throughout the rest of year? or which apear/repeat exactly four times in a year?
anyone knowlegeable in astronomy?
Peace be upon you all,
Thank you Zlatan and Ayman for keeping this discussion alive. This is the only way we can resolve it.
Zlatan, I do think that the more we learn about astronomy the closer we will get to the answer. The "heavenly bodies" certainly have an effect upon the earth, and we are earth beings. We are certainly being given a timing that will be most beneficial to the PURPOSE of the concept.
If we are talking abouut debating (hajja) , then that appears to me to be a "fiery" time. The summer solstice which last 4 days(not years :cry: ) keeps coming to mind. With the winter and summer solstices and the two equinoxes, we have 10 days (a recurring theme).
Just wanted to throw some ideas on the fire while it is still burning.
Peace Ayman & Kylle
Ayman can you also check for the meaning of maGloomat instead of ma˛&loomat?
i have checked but can not recall what the meaning was right now...but surely there some interesting notions in that root which maybe can lead to something, if not right now, then after we gather more knowledge and the facts...
btw 2:187 and its words "wala tubashiroohunna waantum AAakifoonafee almasajidi" "and do not approach them/make them happy while you are devouted in time/place/institution of obeying"
might be another evidence that ramadan is one of the four ashuru of restriction?
Peace Ayman, all
Quote from: "Zlatan"
Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?
that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...
In 2:185 we read that the reading is "unzila" in shahr of ramadan..tell me ayman, anyone knowledgeable, does this stem of n-z-l allow it to be read/understood as "when the revelation of the reading started/initiated" or its only restricted to "when the reading is (completely) revealed".
Is the whole of the reading revealed only during shahr of ramadan and not in any other time?
If this is the case, and revelation has been restricted only to the time of shahr of ramadan then from 9:1-3 its quite and almost undeniably clear that ramadan is the first of 4 ashuru of restriction...
best wishes
Peace brother Zlatan,
Quote from: "Zlatan"In 2:185 we read that the reading is "unzila" in shahr of ramadan..tell me ayman, anyone knowledgeable, does this stem of n-z-l allow it to be read/understood as "when the revelation of the reading started/initiated" or its only restricted to "when the reading is (completely) revealed".
Is the whole of the reading revealed only during shahr of ramadan and not in any other time?
If this is the case, and revelation has been restricted only to the time of shahr of ramadan then from 9:1-3 its quite and almost undeniably clear that ramadan is the first of 4 ashuru of restriction...
Thank you for an excellent observation. I think that perhaps the answer to your question is in understanding something that I have long wondered about myself. What, if any, is the difference between the terms "anzl" and "nzl"?
I think that perhaps "anzl" denotes the first step of "descending" while "nzl" denotes the second step. So it is a two-step process.
The first step is chapters of the reading being descended/"anzl" (see 24:1, 9:86, 2:185, 97:1, etc.). This happens during one night, the night of measure, which is also the burning/scorching full-moon (shahr ramadhan).
The second step is Jibril/"jibril?"/the spirit descending ("nzl") the book on the prophet's heart, an internal process (see 26:193, 2:97). This takes place gradually and not all at once (see 25:32).
Please let me know what you think.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace ayman, all,
These are some charts made by Muhammad Shahroor for his book "al-kitab wa al-quran". There's an entire chapter about "inzal wa tanzil".
We can discuss about it later, but for now my understanding is as follow:
"anzala/inzal" means that the person understands what has been "nouzzila".
"nazzala/tanzil" means that the object is *made* available to a person in a manner that the person *can* understand it, but the person has not yet understood the object.
Like in the example with Newton below, things are falling to the ground for millions of years because of the gravity, everybody saw this phenomenon but nobody made the link, until Newton had the revelation (or arrived to the understanding) that there is a law made by the creator, and studied this law to put it in a formula.
http://www.shahrour.org/bookListPages.php?cid=360&pid=359&page=147&bid=1&imagetopurl=drasat1.jpg
(http://puadam.jeeran.com/en-1.JPG)
(http://puadam.jeeran.com/en-2.JPG)
(http://puadam.jeeran.com/en-3.JPG)
--
I do no doubt what someone is saying when it comes to modern Arabic. But I know that in CLassical Arabic anzala and nazzala are synonymous forms on the most part. So inzaal and tanzeel can mean the same things but they both definitely have two distinct meanings. One is to 'understand' the other is 'to come down.' As well as 'to couse to understand' and 'to cause to come down'
Godbless,
Anwar
"but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he returns" 2:196
If one is already fasting how then the expiation could be the fasting during the same time?
best wishes, zlatan
Peace brother Zlatan,
Quote from: "Zlatan""but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he returns" 2:196
If one is already fasting how then the expiation could be the fasting during the same time?
There are several possible answers. Which answer is most correct will depend on:
1. A proper understanding of 2:196.
2. Possibly, the context of war from 2:190-195 must also be taken into account in relationship to the interpretation of what could be construed as the cutting of the hair.
3. Also, if one continues reading in 2:196, one will see that there is a certain group that is exempted from this rule. However, it is no clear what they should do instead of the prescribed abstinence. One interpretation is that they should abstain the whole ten days during the "7ajj"/debate. So for them, the "7ajj" duration is 10 days.
4. A proper understanding of "7ajj" and what it is. Also, if it is one time at any of the "ash-hur ma3lumat" or if it occurs at all the "ash-hur ma3lumat".
Point 4 is actually the most important point. I think that once we properly understand "7ajj" then the picture will become clearer. To start, please let me know what you understand "7ajj" to be.
My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 22:27 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 28:27 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (28:23-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disadvantaged.
Thus, I think that the concept of "7ajj" has nothing to do with any religious challenge no more than it has to do with a holy pilgrimage. It is an entirely secular concept.
I think that once we agree on a proper understanding of "7ajj" then we can address the other issues and answer your question together.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace be upon you Ayman,
QuoteMy understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 22:27 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 28:27 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (28:23-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disatvantaged.
Thus, I think that the concept of "7ajj" has nothing to do with any religious challenge no more than it has to do with a holy pilgrimage. It is an entirely secular concept.
I think that once we agree on a proper understanding of "7ajj" then we can address the other issues and answer your question together.
WoW!!! I need to reflect on that. Very good work indeed Ayman.
thanks ayman, thoughts provoking comment, indeed....
i will study and ponder further
best wishes, zlatan
C'est magnifique Ayman :D
Keep good works
The god bless you
God blessings on all,
I will put my understanding in points:
1. For the compensation of killing someone to be to fast for a number of months does not give that number of months any particular signifance other than that the Koran says that that is the number of months that we are to fast in.
2. Therefore, if someone is prescribed to fast during the Pilgrimage for 10 days that does not make the Pilgrimage and that number of days equal. If the Koran had said that they must fast 2 months would we assume that the pilgrimage should be two months then? That would be jumping to conclusions.
3. The passage where Moses (God bless him) works for a man of Midian for 8 pilgrimages obviously says that the people of Midian engaged in a pilgrimage and used it to refer to time periods. Just as we do. We can say I want you to work for me for 5 easters, or for 5 summers or from 5 winters. Depending on the context we can mean all 5 years or literally for just those 5 seasons.
4. So the people of Midian had a pilgrimage. What is so wrong about that? Just about every people in the world has some sort of pilgrimage that they make annually, weekly, bianually, biweekly, or even haphazardly.
So if we are to fast 10 days during the pilgrimage for whatever reason how does that make the pilgrimage equal to 10 days.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace be upon you Anwar,
QuoteJust about every people in the world has some sort of pilgrimage that they make annually, weekly, bianually, biweekly, or even haphazardly.
What are some examples?
God's blessings on you Kyle,
Jews make pilgrimages to the wailing wall, Christians make pilgrimages to
Jerusalem, Catholics still make pilgrimages to Rome, Muslims in West Africa make pilgrimages to the tombs of their saints, other Muslims do the same in Iran and other countries. Buddhist make pilgrimages to the statues and relics and tomb of Buddha. Hindus make pilgrimages to the Ganges river, which they consider holy, etc. etc.
Many peoples throughout the world have made pilgrimages to different things. The ancient greeks made pilgrimages to oracles. If you consider it holy and you go to visit it it is considered a pilgrimage. Some pilgrimages are coordinated and some are not. Some are for certain seasons and others can be done at any time. But they are all pilgrimages.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace brother Ayman, all...
In regards to the full moon being easier to sight and how we can tell if its 'full', i had some observations...last month i tried to observe if the moon was full and during that time it was high and it was quite difficult to tell if it was full or off by a little...this month a few days back i noticed it very close/closer to the horizon and it was surprisingly easy to tell it was full...
Here is an interesting link regarding this phenomenon:
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionI.html
Regards,
Nadia
Peace sister Nadia,
Quote from: "savage_carrot"In regards to the full moon being easier to sight and how we can tell if its 'full', i had some observations...last month i tried to observe if the moon was full and during that time it was high and it was quite difficult to tell if it was full or off by a little...this month a few days back i noticed it very close/closer to the horizon and it was surprisingly easy to tell it was full...
Here is an interesting link regarding this phenomenon:
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionI.html
It is amazing when what the book tells us is verified through empirical observation. I certainly look forward to the full-moon of scorching heat next month. It will come one day after the summer solstice. Being so close to the solstice it should be more spectacular and even easier to make out than the full moon you saw.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
Peace
I have been wondering if there are any established counter arguments by anyone to your understanding of shahr ramadan? If so could you please direct me to them?
Go in peace.
Peace Soof,
Quote from: Soof on August 18, 2008, 02:12:27 PMI have been wondering if there are any established counter arguments by anyone to your understanding of shahr ramadan? If so could you please direct me to them?
I think that the main counter arguments that I have seen fall into three categories.
There is the traditional understanding which has to ignore the meaning of the word "ramada" and assume it to be meaningless. It also has to ignore the contradictions brought about by considering "shahr" to mean a calendar month as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full-moon, a meaning indicated in the Classical Arabic dictionary Lisan Al-3arab). For example the contradiction created in 2:185 by supposedly making the fast for a month and then turning round and saying that fasting is for a few days.
There is Layth's understanding which, as far as I know, corrects the traditional understanding about month and acknowledges that the word "shahr" means full moon but like traditional understanding ignores the meaning of the word "ramadan" and thus puts the timing around the winter solstice.
There is also Anwar (Progod) who takes into account the correct meaning of "ramadan" and doesn't ignore it but sticks to the traditional understanding and resulting contradictions of taking "shahr" to mean "month" as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full moon).
As usual, any other types of counter arguments are welcome.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.
Go in peace.
Peace Soof,
Quote from: Soof on August 20, 2008, 02:05:40 PMThanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.
Long after the article was written, I came accross information on other sites about Jewish festivals. I found it interesting that several of them are also timed according to the full moon. One festival in particular, if I remember correctly is the feast of Tebernacles (I believe this is what it is called) is a harvest feast which seems similar to the hagg/feast talked about in the great reading.
I don't think much research has been done in this area since all orientalists simply assume that the sectarian timing is the correct one and no one has bothered to look into this and verify it. There is definitely more research needed in this and many other areas taken for granted.
Peace,
Ayman
Salamun alaikum,
To Ayman,
I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative. I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic. When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills. I do have 2 questions for you and one note. The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why. How do you interpret the 2 ayat 10:5 and 17:12? Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning? For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 58:4 (also 4:92) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker? I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon? Do you see the difference I am talking about? Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 65:4, it says 3 ashhur. Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3?
As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any. I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this? Here are the verses I found: 2:259, 7:130, 9:28,37,126, 10:5, 12:42,47,49, 17:12, 18:11,25, 20:40, 22:47, 23:112, 26:18, 205, 29:14, 30:4, 31:14, 32:5, 70:4 Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 31:14 and 46:15 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother. In 46:15 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 31:14 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams. If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer? If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period? Subhanallah. Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?
Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic. I sent an email with links to you two's articles. I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation. It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book. It IS something important in our obligation/ system.
Looking forward to your reply.
Umm Tariq
Peace Umm Tariq,
Thank you for your comments and it is great to see you on the forum.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 08:19:21 AMI read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative. I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic. When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills. I do have 2 questions for you and one note. The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why. How do you interpret the 2 ayat 10:5 and 17:12?
I don't disagree that the timing of the hunting restriction, the abstinence and the feast (hagg) is based on a luni-solar cycle. What I disagree with is the term "calendar". The god doesn't give us a calendar and doesn't command us to use a certain calendar. Calendars have things like the days of the week and so on that are completely arbitrary. One can use any calendar as long as they don't change the timing of the hunting restriction in order to violate what the god restricted as warned against in 9:36. The timing described by the god is independent of any calendar. It is based on clear cosmic phenomenon. Of course, this god-given timing mechanism is very effective so it is probably a good idea to use a calendar that is aligned with this timing but it is not compulsory.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 08:19:21 AMSecond, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning?
The meaning of "full-moon" fits all the uses of the word "shahr" in the great reading.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 08:19:21 AMFor example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 58:4 (also 4:92) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker? I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon? Do you see the difference I am talking about?
Yes, it would mean to fast the period covering two full-moons (about 30 days).
Quote from: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 08:19:21 AMAlso in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 65:4, it says 3 ashhur. Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3?
It would depend on when the full-moon occurred after the couple is separated. If it just occurred the day before separation then waiting for three full-moons would mean waiting for about 90 days. If the full moon occurs the day after the couple is separated then it would be about 60 days. So the waiting period varies between 60-90 days. This is the same as when the women are asked to count menstruations. The waiting period will be different depending on when the woman?s menstruation occurred.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 08:19:21 AMAs far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any. I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this? Here are the verses I found: 2:259, 7:130, 9:28,37,126, 10:5, 12:42,47,49, 17:12, 18:11,25, 20:40, 22:47, 23:112, 26:18, 205, 29:14, 30:4, 31:14, 32:5, 70:4 Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 31:14 and 46:15 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother. In 46:15 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 31:14 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams. If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer? If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period? Subhanallah. Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?
46:15 talks about pregnancy and weaning together being 30 full-moons. On the other hand, 31:14 talks about the weaning alone being
within two years. So according to 31:14 two years is the maximum period for weaning but it could be less. The two passages are talking about two different but overlapping periods and not the same period. For example, if the pregnancy was 9 full-moons then the weaning would be 21 full-moons. On the other hand, if the baby was premature and say he was born in only 7 full-moons then the weaning would be 23 full moons. In either case, the weaning would be within the two years.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 08:19:21 AMAlso I wanted to post a link to this article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic. I sent an email with links to you two's articles. I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation. It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book. It IS something important in our obligation/ system.
Thank you for the link to the article. I wasn?t aware that the issue of the timing was being challenged in Christian circles. It is finally about time. I think that what rational Christians are starting to realize is that the seven day week is a completely manmade arbitrary timeframe and that it is not tied to any objective cosmic phenomenon. Many have also undoubtedly been disturbed by the Roman pagan origin of the seven day week. I think that the issue addressed in the great reading is broader than this. It is not just about the week but it is about ?al-sabt? i.e., ?day of rest? or ?Holidays? in general. The god is indicating that we shouldn?t take a day of rest based on the false premise that the god authorized or required us to rest on that day. Based on the great reading, I don?t think that it matters if this ?day of rest? occurs every seven days, every month, every year or whatever time interval. So the condemnation of such practice equally applies to weekly Holidays such as Friday, Saturday or Sunday and to annual Holidays such as Eid, Christmas and so on. In general, I believe that it is OK to take time to relax and rest but we shouldn?t claim that the god ordered us to do so or authorized such specific days.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks so much for your post, it helped to clarify alot for me.
I agree with you about using the term calendar, it's a strong argument. I looked over the article again and I see you mentioned the 'year' being solar. However, can this be summarized as we follow a solar year but yet we use the moon to determine certain events?
Excuse me for my mistake in the verses about pregnancy and weaning, I see the difference thanks. I guess we are still left to figure out whether there is a difference between 'sanah' and 'aam'.
I got a reply from the woman of that article. I am amazed at how open minded she is and the reply was really welcoming. I also shared with her the same point that the God mentions about the sabt in relation to previous people but He is not asking us to observe such. We are concerned about the fasting, hajj and the forbidden time period.
Thank you again and as more questions arise or I need help in clarifying an issue I will post except as the God wills.
Umm Tariq
Peace all;
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?
شَہۡرُ رَمَضَانَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ هُدً۬ى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَـٰتٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَٱلۡفُرۡقَانِۚ فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ وَمَن ڪَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوۡ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ۬ فَعِدَّةٌ۬ مِّنۡ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَۗ يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡيُسۡرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡعُسۡرَ وَلِتُڪۡمِلُواْ ٱلۡعِدَّةَ وَلِتُڪَبِّرُواْ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَٮٰكُمۡ وَلَعَلَّڪُمۡ تَشۡكُرُونَ (١٨٥)
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)
Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.
Now how long is one month?
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month :
وَوَصَّيۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ بِوَٲلِدَيۡهِ إِحۡسَـٰنًاۖ حَمَلَتۡهُ أُمُّهُ ۥ كُرۡهً۬ا وَوَضَعَتۡهُ كُرۡهً۬اۖ وَحَمۡلُهُ ۥ وَفِصَـٰلُهُ ۥ ثَلَـٰثُونَ شَہۡرًاۚ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۥ وَبَلَغَ أَرۡبَعِينَ سَنَةً۬ قَالَ رَبِّ أَوۡزِعۡنِىٓ أَنۡ أَشۡكُرَ نِعۡمَتَكَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَىَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَىَّ وَأَنۡ أَعۡمَلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا تَرۡضَٮٰهُ وَأَصۡلِحۡ لِى فِى ذُرِّيَّتِىٓۖ إِنِّى تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَإِنِّى مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ (١٥)
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَٮِٕسۡنَ مِنَ ٱلۡمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕكُمۡ إِنِ ٱرۡتَبۡتُمۡ فَعِدَّتُہُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشۡهُرٍ۬ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمۡ يَحِضۡنَۚ وَأُوْلَـٰتُ ٱلۡأَحۡمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعۡنَ حَمۡلَهُنَّۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجۡعَل لَّهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَمۡرِهِۦ يُسۡرً۬ا (٤)
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (١٨٩)
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
Peace
Salaams All,
Quote
So everyone of you witness that month should fast it
It is using lanes and the Quranic Dictionry something along the lines;
So everyone who sees or is witness to an act of treachury must shun it but if one doesn't realise the treachury they must shun it when they come to such a realisation later.
Of course we are all entiitled to our idols though , arn't we?
And remember just one month is named out a dozen?
And thirteen moons in a twelve month year!?
my conclusion;
There arn't any twelve months in the quran at all.
God Bless all.
Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators: I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 27, 2008, 10:50:35 PMIt is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?
شَہۡرُ رَمَضَانَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ هُدً۬ى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَـٰتٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَٱلۡفُرۡقَانِۚ فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ وَمَن ڪَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوۡ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ۬ فَعِدَّةٌ۬ مِّنۡ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَۗ يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡيُسۡرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡعُسۡرَ وَلِتُڪۡمِلُواْ ٱلۡعِدَّةَ وَلِتُڪَبِّرُواْ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَٮٰكُمۡ وَلَعَلَّڪُمۡ تَشۡكُرُونَ (١٨٥)
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)
Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.
But 2:184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat). So now you have created a contradiction between 2:184 and 2:185. Also, why would you need to complete the count of a month? A month is a month and there is no completion of a count issue. The only way that counting would be an issue is if "shahr ramadan" (the scorching full-moon) is a marker and not a timeframe.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 27, 2008, 10:50:35 PMNow how long is one month?
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 27, 2008, 10:50:35 PMMoreover, the following would show the length of one month :
وَوَصَّيۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ بِوَٲلِدَيۡهِ إِحۡسَـٰنًاۖ حَمَلَتۡهُ أُمُّهُ ۥ كُرۡهً۬ا وَوَضَعَتۡهُ كُرۡهً۬اۖ وَحَمۡلُهُ ۥ وَفِصَـٰلُهُ ۥ ثَلَـٰثُونَ شَہۡرًاۚ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۥ وَبَلَغَ أَرۡبَعِينَ سَنَةً۬ قَالَ رَبِّ أَوۡزِعۡنِىٓ أَنۡ أَشۡكُرَ نِعۡمَتَكَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَىَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَىَّ وَأَنۡ أَعۡمَلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا تَرۡضَٮٰهُ وَأَصۡلِحۡ لِى فِى ذُرِّيَّتِىٓۖ إِنِّى تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَإِنِّى مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ (١٥)
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
The word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 27, 2008, 10:50:35 PM
وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَٮِٕسۡنَ مِنَ ٱلۡمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕكُمۡ إِنِ ٱرۡتَبۡتُمۡ فَعِدَّتُہُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشۡهُرٍ۬ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمۡ يَحِضۡنَۚ وَأُوْلَـٰتُ ٱلۡأَحۡمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعۡنَ حَمۡلَهُنَّۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجۡعَل لَّهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَمۡرِهِۦ يُسۡرً۬ا (٤)
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing). Menstruation, like the full-moon is an event. So when the god is telling women in 2:228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 27, 2008, 10:50:35 PM
يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (١٨٩)
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent). Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2:189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators: I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
Peace Ayman,
My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
But 2:184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat).
No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
So now you have created a contradiction between 2:184 and 2:185.
In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).
Please note that God's order is فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
The word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing).
Well, it is funny :rotfl:
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
when the god is telling women in 2:228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent).
Agree
Quote from: ayman on August 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM
Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2:189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).
Peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMMy intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)
It doesn't upset others. The idea is that if everyone posted every message on three or four threads, then people will just start ignoring the messages the same way they ignore other repeated messages such as spam. So spaming the board with the exact same message on several threads is not productive.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMNo, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)
This is false because in 12:20 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?
Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month").
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMIn 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).
Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?
Also, why say "complete the count in 2:185 if it was already given as "30 days" or whatever "month" you conjure up.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMPlease note that God's order is فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".
So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?
Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMDo you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMWell, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).
But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMWell, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMWell, it is funny :rotfl:
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.
So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMTrue, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?
Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 28, 2008, 07:00:48 PMAgree
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).
So when does Shaban start?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
This is false because in 12:20 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?
Peace,
Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?
Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORD
What is the Root Word For M3dodat?
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month").
In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?
I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?
To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
I used the Quran as shown above :jedi:
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
So when does Shaban start?
When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
Peace,
I have an issue which is related to this debate.
[2:185] شهر رمضان الذي انزل فيه القران هدي للناس وبينات من الهدي والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان منكم مريضا او علي سفر فعدة من ايام اخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولايريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله علي ما هداكم ولعلكم تشكرون
Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.
I think this because within the verse, it says فمن شهد منكم الشهر which I translate to: so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like: فمن شهد منكم شهر رمضان .
I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
Quote from: alalmakt on August 30, 2008, 07:30:14 PM
Peace,
I have an issue which is related to this debate.
[2:185] شهر رمضان الذي انزل فيه القران هدي للناس وبينات من الهدي والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان منكم مريضا او علي سفر فعدة من ايام اخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولايريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله علي ما هداكم ولعلكم تشكرون
Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.
I think this because within the verse, it says فمن شهد منكم الشهر which I translate to: so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like: فمن شهد منكم شهر رمضان .
I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
Peace:
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.
Peace
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 08:47:25 PM
Peace:
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.
Peace
Peace to all.
This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed? You base your number of days (in a "month") on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?
The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat"). "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?
In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted') coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".
Peace.
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 31, 2008, 11:55:57 AM
Peace to all.
This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed?
God said that
شهر رمضان الذي انزل فيه القران
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 31, 2008, 11:55:57 AM
You base your number of days (in a "month") on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?
I based my number on the following logic and Quran:
Now how long is one month?
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month :
وَوَصَّيۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ بِوَٲلِدَيۡهِ إِحۡسَـٰنًاۖ حَمَلَتۡهُ أُمُّهُ ۥ كُرۡهً۬ا وَوَضَعَتۡهُ كُرۡهً۬اۖ وَحَمۡلُهُ ۥ وَفِصَـٰلُهُ ۥ ثَلَـٰثُونَ شَہۡرًاۚ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۥ وَبَلَغَ أَرۡبَعِينَ سَنَةً۬ قَالَ رَبِّ أَوۡزِعۡنِىٓ أَنۡ أَشۡكُرَ نِعۡمَتَكَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَىَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَىَّ وَأَنۡ أَعۡمَلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا تَرۡضَٮٰهُ وَأَصۡلِحۡ لِى فِى ذُرِّيَّتِىٓۖ إِنِّى تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَإِنِّى مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ (١٥)
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months
. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَٮِٕسۡنَ مِنَ ٱلۡمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕكُمۡ إِنِ ٱرۡتَبۡتُمۡ فَعِدَّتُہُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشۡهُرٍ۬ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمۡ يَحِضۡنَۚ وَأُوْلَـٰتُ ٱلۡأَحۡمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعۡنَ حَمۡلَهُنَّۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجۡعَل لَّهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَمۡرِهِۦ يُسۡرً۬ا (٤)
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (١٨٩)
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 31, 2008, 11:55:57 AM
The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat"). "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?
So, based on your logic, the Quran was revealed in the month of extreme heat.
Is it June or July or August or September, as you know all these months are Hot in the region where the Quran was revealed.
Thus, your argument is wrong. Ramadan is a Name that is refreing to the time when Quran was revealed to prophet Mohamed and when Moslems should Fast.
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 31, 2008, 11:55:57 AM
In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted') coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".
Peace.
Cheap price is what these people paid for Yousuf; Do you think 30 Derahm is Cheap as a Price For Yousuf?
No I take it that 30 Deraham is too much for Him, according to your Logic.
Again, Draham M3dodatt means "Counted Draham" and Never "Few Draham", according to its Root Word.
Peace
Peace All
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/moon_phases.php
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php
In the above link, you can witness the Moon size (every day) and the way Moslem calculate one Period (one Month), as they were instructed by Quran.
Peace
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2008, 01:21:36 AM
It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
Ayman
Peace:
That would answer your Question:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMAgain, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?
Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORD
A Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMWhat is the Root Word For M3dodat?
The root is not a good indicator by itself. You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms. Take for example, ?infaq? (spending) and ?nifaq? (hypocrisy): two totally different meanings from the same root NFQ (spend). Meanings are not developed in a vacuum and the Arabic language is not some divine language that suddenly descended from the sky. One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMIn Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.
The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet. :D
If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words:
Quote from: belalhammadGod told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMI answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).
You have made a long post as if you are presenting some new understanding but in reality you are doing nothing but repeating the old nonsensical and completely useless so-called Islamic Calendar. All that you really did is prove that your logic is even less well thought out than even Sunnis as you demonstrated by your leaf falling contradiction.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMTo witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.
This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2:189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D.
If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2:185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMI used the Quran as shown above :jedi:
This is the same exact thing Sunnis say about their so-called Islamic calendar. They also say ?it is based in the Quran? but then they fail to address the contradictions. They try to force their preconceived "Islamic Calendar" to fit the great reading exactly like you are doing.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMFinally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.
You are the only one on this forum who is saying that one month is equal to 10 days. I didn?t say that. The only thing that you are proving by repeating this is that you like the logical fallacy of a strawman.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMThat is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.
So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2:189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.
Quote from: belalhammad on August 30, 2008, 12:27:28 PMWhen we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
But your completely arbitrary Ramadan is 100% dependent on when Shaaban occurred and this has nothing to do with anything in the great reading. So stop pretending that you are basing your Ramadan on the ?Quran?. You don?t even know the basics such as what the word ?ramadan? means, let alone anything about the timing. I would suggest that you start by learning the meaning of the words first before drawing a conclusion.
You can see the meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab as I quoted earlier on this thread or summarized here:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
Peace Belal,
A Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.
وَشَرَوۡهُ
بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬
Ayman, what happened? Why cann't you see where God said "Cheap Price" before "Counted Draham".
Do you think Counted Draham can be 30 Derham, and still a Cheap price for Yousuf? Please give me a Straight Answer.
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
The root is not a good indicator by itself.
You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms.
Now, I can tell that you do not like to be Wrong, and you will twist every thing logic to fit and support your opinion--HUMAN EGO.
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.
Agree, where M3dodatt can mean Few, when "Bakss" gave the mening of Cheap.
وَشَرَوۡهُ
بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬
Where can you indecate that M3dodatt would equal 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 1000 Deraham, when such number is still Cheap for Yousuf.
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet. :D
Agree.
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words:
It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.
The wisdom behind why Ramadan will shift in season every 10 years is in this thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
but you are runing from answreing to such wisdom which proves God Justics between his creatuers.
The Islamic Calander is full of times for many worshiping duties, such as Hajj, Ramadan. Now Why do you think the Season will matter for such duties.
Why do you think All Moslems Should Fast in June, when June is Hot in the USA and Arab Contries and Cold in South Africa, and Spring in another part of the Word. So your point is meaningless in South Africa.
Why are you so Fixed on that June is a Month of Heat All over the Earth.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2:189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D.
From the Waxing to the next Waxing is 1 Month; from the Waning to the Waning is one Month, and From Full to Full is One Month.
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2:185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Ayman, You are Associating a wrong information to God's Religion.
Where in the Quran Can the word Shar be translated as Full Moon.
Shar is a Month period which is measuered by the Moon Cycle
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2:189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.
Again, From Waxing Crescent to Waxing is one Month. Does that equal 20 days :confused:
Happy Ramadan to every Fasting Moslem
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PM
وَشَرَوۡهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬
Ayman, what happened? Why cann't you see where God said "Cheap Price" before "Counted Draham".
Do you think Counted Draham can be 30 Derham, and still a Cheap price for Yousuf? Please give me a Straight Answer.
Prove that "counted" means 30 and not 100, a Million or any number.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMNow, I can tell that you do not like to be Wrong, and you will twist every thing logic to fit and support your opinion--HUMAN EGO.
You are simply evading to address the fact that "infaq" and "nifaq" coming from the same root and yet having completely different meanings. It is not my opinion This is an indisputable fact. You are really in no position to give any opinion about anything relating to the Arabic language if you are ignorant of this most basic of facts.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMAgree, where M3dodatt can mean Few, when "Bakss" gave the mening of Cheap.
وَشَرَوۡهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬
Where can you indecate that M3dodatt would equal 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 1000 Deraham, when such number is still Cheap for Yousuf.
The idea of "cheap" is already covered by "bakhs". If it is any number as you falsely claim then the term "ma3doodat" is redundant. It is not my problem that you can't understand this simple logic.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMAgree.
If you agree then stop making such ridiculous statements and focus on the issue.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMThe wisdom behind why Ramadan will shift in season every 10 years is in this thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
but you are runing from answreing to such wisdom which proves God Justics between his creatuers.
The Islamic Calander is full of times for many worshiping duties, such as Hajj, Ramadan. Now Why do you think the Season will matter for such duties.
Why do you think All Moslems Should Fast in June, when June is Hot in the USA and Arab Contries and Cold in South Africa, and Spring in another part of the Word. So your point is meaningless in South Africa.
Why are you so Fixed on that June is a Month of Heat All over the Earth.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
Why can't you make up your mind? What happened to your statement about the falling leaf to falling leaf? You are clearly confused.
Also, everything on earth follows the solar cycle. All the animals follow the solar cycle. Since 9:36 and the four restricted "shahr" (full-moons) are about the hunting restrictions then certainly the timing for them has to be in line with the seasons.
The so-called Islamic calendar on the other hand is completely about false manmade religious duties that are irrelevant to the natural order of things.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMFrom the Waxing to the next Waxing is 1 Month; from the Waning to the Waning is one Month, and From Full to Full is One Month.
But 2:189 doesn't say "waxing" or "waning". It simply says "crescent". The time between two consecutive crescents is either 20 days or 1 day. It is NEVER 30 or 29 days. You admitted that "ahilat" means "crescents" and not "new moons". Are you now flip-flopping on this like you did with the "falling leaf to falling leaf" analogy. Again, this only demonstrates that you are hopelessly confused.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMAyman, You are Associating a wrong information to God's Religion.
Where in the Quran Can the word Shar be translated as Full Moon.
Where does it say in the Quran that "shahr" can be translated as month?
The meaning of full moon fits in all the occurences of the word "shahr" and it perfectly corrects the issue of the timing.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMShar is a Month period which is measuered by the Moon Cycle
What moon cycle? The time between two consecutive crescents is 20 days or 1 day. Only the time between full moons is going to work. Also, only the full-moon can be easily witnessed by everyone. I guarantee that despite all the noise that you are making, you have never witnessed the new moon.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMIt is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
Why are you ignoring the sun?
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMAgain, From Waxing Crescent to Waxing is one Month. Does that equal 20 days :confused:
You are confused because you are ignoring 2:189 which clearly says "crescent" and not waxing crescent.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 01, 2008, 02:04:51 PMHappy Ramadan to every Fasting Moslem
If you knew the meaning of the word "ramadan" and were able to translate it then you would have realized that what you are saying is pure nonsense.
How do you expect to convince anyone if you don't even know the meaning of the very word "ramadan"?
I already gave you the link to the article and you can see it on the first page of this thread:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
If you see anything wrong with the article then point it out. Meanwhile, I am not going to waste anymore of my time on your uninformed arguments when you don't even want to learn the basics such as the meaning of "ramadan", the central word in 2:185.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
Peace Belal,
Prove that "counted" means 30 and not 100, a Million or any number.
:confused:
It does not mean a spacific count unless given. Thus M3doodat does not mean Few or Too Much, but means Counted.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
You are simply evading to address the fact that "infaq" and "nifaq" coming from the same root and yet having completely different meanings. It is not my opinion This is an indisputable fact. You are really in no position to give any opinion about anything relating to the Arabic language if you are ignorant of this most basic of facts.
Examples of how God Used the Word M3doodat, (beside the example of Rammadan and Yousuf):
Nor shall We delay it but for a counted term. (11-104)
وَمَا نُؤَخِّرُهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا لِأَجَلٍ۬ مَّعۡدُودٍ۬ (١٠٤)
وَقَالُواْ لَن تَمَسَّنَا ٱلنَّارُ إِلَّآ أَيَّامً۬ا مَّعۡدُودَةً۬ۚ
And they say: "The fire shall not touch us but for a numbered days";.....(2-80)
Ayman, again, M3doodat means Counted.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
The idea of "cheap" is already covered by "bakhs". If it is any number as you falsely claim then the term "ma3doodat" is redundant. It is not my problem that you can't understand this simple logic.
You are going NUTS;
I never said that M3doodat means any number. But you are trying to say that M3doodat is Few and less Than 30. In other words, you are trying to prove lies using twisted words. ;D
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
Why can't you make up your mind? What happened to your statement about the falling leaf to falling leaf? You are clearly confused.
Another use of the Word M3dodat is :
إِنَّ
عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, the Number of Months is 12;
Now, 12 X 20 days= 240 day, Still less than one year.
Ayman, we have to Fast for the period of one Month, and the year has 12 Month; and each month starts and ends during one Moon Cycle (28, 29, 30 days).
Now you want to Fast do, if not, please Keep it to yourself.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
Also, everything on earth follows the solar cycle. All the animals follow the solar cycle. Since 9:36 and the four restricted "shahr" (full-moons) are about the hunting restrictions then certainly the timing for them has to be in line with the seasons.
Ayman, the time of the 4 seasons in Mecca are different from Russa or South Africa.
If Ramadan in June every year because of Heat, then all Moslems all over the word will have to be in area that is Hot. In other words, people in South Africa Can not Fast.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
But 2:189 doesn't say "waxing" or "waning".
Ayman, Waxing is when the Moon appears after disappearing.
Waning is when the Moon is Disappearing
Thus, How can you confuse yourself, when calculating one Moon Cycle (Month). Should it be a Complete Cycle or half Cycle.
I have to go, the time for Breakfasting is comming soon.
Peace Belal, everyone,
All your questions were answered here:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
If there is an error with the article then point it out. Meanwhile, I am not going to waste my time on your mindless arguments where you are merely trying to justify your sectarian preconceptions about "ramadan" while you are clueless about even simple things such as what the word means.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
I'm sorry but I have to jump in for the sake of fairness. Ma'dood primarily means 'counted' and CAN also be used to mean a few. It's like telling someone their days are numbered. That obviously implies that they don't have many more days to live and they might as well count them. It is an expression. So whereas numbered here means few that is not the primary meaning of the word. With that said ma'dood carries a similar usage, but its primary meaning is 'counted/numbered', be that many, moderate or few.
Conclusion: We have two meanings here to this word. Context and logic will point to which one is most appropriate in this context. Unfortunately this depends on a person's desire to see a context that might go against his or her agenda. For those who know me I agree with the meaning of 'counted/numbered' in this context, and NOT 'few.' 'Counted' has a meaning of 'limited' or 'specific number.' Ma'dood can also mean 'countable.' That means that there is a limited amount of days and not an indefinite amount, which might be interpreted with just the use of 'days.'
So scour at me, hate me or call me ridiculous as well but I think the conclusion of 'few days' for this context is a distortion of logic, context and knowledge about the meanings of this word.
Godbless,
Anwar
Now I do believe that Ramadan means hot season, and that peopel should fast for 30 days during their REPSECTIVE summers (wherever they are on the planet).
And I also want to wish a fulfilling Ramadan for all those fasting during what they believe to be Ramadan.
ma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
To those who can read Arabic (cut-and-paste from lisaanul 3arab):
والأَيام المعدودات: أَيامُ التشريق وهي ثلاثة بعد يوم النحر، وأَما الأَيام المعلوماتُ فعشر ذي الحِجة، عُرِّفَتْ تلك بالتقليل لأَنها ثلاثة، وعُرِّفَتْ هذه بالشُّهْرة لأَنها عشرة، وإِنما قُلِّلَ بمعدودة لأَنها نقيض قولك لا تحصى كثرة؛ ومنه وشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود، ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو دُرَيْهِماتٍ وحَمَّاماتٍ، وقد يجوز أَن تقع الأَلف والتاء للتكثير.
What I also find interesting in this quote: the phrase about the ten days of Dhul Hijja: [...and this is known by "shuhra" (derived from shahr; my comment) because it is ten (days)]
Quote from: ayman on May 04, 2005, 12:23:01 AM
Peace sister Nadia,
It is amazing when what the book tells us is verified through empirical observation. I certainly look forward to the full-moon of scorching heat next month. It will come one day after the summer solstice. Being so close to the solstice it should be more spectacular and even easier to make out than the full moon you saw.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
Salaam
If witnessing is important does that mean a blind person is exempt from fasting?
:peace:
Quote from: Samia on September 02, 2008, 01:52:09 PM
ma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
Peace,
what is your proof from Quran?
Even if M3doodat would refere to any thing that can be counted, it still can not be controlled by a spacific. In other words, it could be 10, 20, 30, 40, 100, 100,000, 1Million.
If you still can count it it is M3doodat.
Peace
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2008, 05:36:45 PMIf witnessing is important does that mean a blind person is exempt from fasting?
:peace:
Yes.
Paix
Progod, if it is counted and not few, what is the amount of days? 30? Why is this so?
Pace
Quote from: ayman on September 02, 2008, 06:15:15 PM
Yes.
Salaam Ayman,
I am sorry I would disagree, the God I know would not discriminate against blind or deaf person. It is the rigid thinking of people who see God in their own image.
Blind person were were best in memorizing the Qur'ana and you believe they can not experience the blessing of fasting are they less qualified to worship god?
80:7 And why does it concern you that he does not want to purify?
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 02, 2008, 06:15:15 PM
Yes.
Ayman, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND.
Who Gave you the Authority to declare God's Laws :brickwall:
Are you making yourself equal to God?
By the way, I read your artical.
Ayman, your artical is an artical and does not qualify to be a resarch. It lacks supporting data from Quran; it uses Hadiths and stories as its proofs,
Thus, it is worse nothing.
Now, where in the Quran can you claim that Rammadan Means Heat?
Where in the Quran can you claim that Sher means Moon?
In how Many verse did God refers to Moon as "Kamer" and not "Shar"?
The following are some of the hundreds proofs that support the existing of Celender in the Prophet time:
Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage― that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)
Unless you bring proof from Quran, your theory is worsless to all True Believers.
......But who doth more wrong than one who invents a lie against Allah, to lead astray men without knowledge? For Allah guideth not people who do wrong.(6-144) :!
Quote from: belalhammad on September 02, 2008, 06:01:01 PM
Peace,
what is your proof from Quran?
Salaam belal
Where in my post did I refer to God or to a rule of His concerning this word? I quoted lisaanul 3arab and I am talking dictionaries and meaning of words. If you want a proof from lisaanul 3arab, then ask for that.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2008, 08:22:50 PMI am sorry I would disagree, the God I know would not discriminate against blind or deaf person. It is the rigid thinking of people who see God in their own image.
Blind person were were best in memorizing the Qur'ana and you believe they can not experience the blessing of fasting are they less qualified to worship god?
80:7 And why does it concern you that he does not want to purify?
:peace:
The god clearly said in 2:185 that fasting is for "whoever witnesses from amongst you". So a blind person would be exempt from fasting. Now they can still fast if they wanted to but they don't have to. If you or I don't witness the "shahr" because we were locked in a room or whatever then we are exempt from fasting too. Does this mean that I am discriminating against us? But again we can fast anyway if we wanted to. It is just not compulsory.
In fact, if you didn't witness the scorching full moon last July then you are exempt from fasting. What you and others such as Belal are doing right now is instead fasting a completely random lunar month. You can do this if you want but don't claim that the god ordered you to fast what is in fact a completely random month without any authority from him.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 02, 2008, 01:52:09 PMma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
To those who can read Arabic (cut-and-paste from lisaanul 3arab):
والأَيام المعدودات: أَيامُ التشريق وهي ثلاثة بعد يوم النحر، وأَما الأَيام المعلوماتُ فعشر ذي الحِجة، عُرِّفَتْ تلك بالتقليل لأَنها ثلاثة، وعُرِّفَتْ هذه بالشُّهْرة لأَنها عشرة، وإِنما قُلِّلَ بمعدودة لأَنها نقيض قولك لا تحصى كثرة؛ ومنه وشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود، ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو دُرَيْهِماتٍ وحَمَّاماتٍ، وقد يجوز أَن تقع الأَلف والتاء للتكثير.
What I also find interesting in this quote: the phrase about the ten days of Dhul Hijja: [...and this is known by "shuhra" (derived from shahr; my comment) because it is ten (days)]
12:20 confirms the dictionary meaning since if "ma3doodat" meant "any number" then the passage could have simply said "Dirhams" or simply stop at saying that they "bought him cheaply". The only reason to qualify it is to show that it is a few Dirhams and not just any conjectured counted number, including 30 or 100 Billions (which would still be cheap for a son or daughter). The meaning from the context in the great reading and from dictionaries matches perfectly.
Peace,
Ayman
Hi ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 11:57:31 AMThe god clearly said in 2:185 that fasting is for "whoever witnesses from amongst you". So a blind person would be exempt from fasting.
I think it is not "whoever witnesses" but "whoever was present" (note the verse is in past tense). Even if the English word used is 'witness', it does not necessarily mean "by sight" only. Blind, deaf and dumb are all subjected to fasting and the exception eased on the sickly, travelers and the destitute provided they complete the favor in due course.
QuoteNow they can still fast if they wanted to but they don't have to.
The question begs: where in the Quran is the clear command that prohibits from eating and drinking? The word 'fasting' itself is undefined.
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 11:57:31 AM
Peace Farida,
The god clearly said in 2:185 that fasting is for "whoever witnesses from amongst you". So a blind person would be exempt from fasting. Now they can still fast if they wanted to but they don't have to. If you or I don't witness the "shahr" because we were locked in a room or whatever then we are exempt from fasting too. Does this mean that I am discriminating against us? But again we can fast anyway if we wanted to. It is just not compulsory.
In fact, if you didn't witness the scorching full moon last July then you are exempt from fasting. What you and others such as Belal are doing right now is instead fasting a completely random lunar month. You can do this if you want but don't claim that the god ordered you to fast what is in fact a completely random month without any authority from him.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
So in your opinion a blind person is not allowed to give witness?
This sounds similar to the case of ?Blind Justice in The Land Of Pure? where ex-president of Pakistan Zia ul Haqq under ?hudood law? locked away a blind girl for fornication.
I can only recall from a extract of a novel ?A case of exploding mangoes? about this true case. I believe death by stoning was passed to punish this girl named Zainab who was actually raped. Since she was required to recognise all five culprits in the court, but her testimony was not acceptable as she was not able to witness the act or the person in who committed this horrible crime.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 01:59:57 PM
Salaam Ayman,
So in your opinion a blind person is not allowed to give witness?
This sounds similar to the case of ?Blind Justice in The Land Of Pure? where ex-president of Pakistan Zia ul Haqq under ?hudood law? locked away a blind girl for fornication.
I can only recall from a extract of a novel ?A case of exploding mangoes? about this true case. I believe death by stoning was passed to punish this girl named Zainab who was actually raped. Since she was required to recognise all five culprits in the court, but her testimony was not acceptable as she was not able to witness the act or the person in who committed this horrible crime.
:peace:
Peace Farida
Be aware of another blind person Qazi Husain Ahmed he is still mourning hadood law. :( :)
Quote from: afridi220 on September 03, 2008, 02:10:19 PM
Peace Farida
Be aware of another blind person Qazi Husain Ahmed he is still mourning hadood law. :( :)
Salaam Afridi
I am not aware of that one, but do send a link or details, even of this case of Zainab I remembered from this novel and I am waiting to see how much rigid interpratation of Quran will result in yet more discrimination.
:peace:
Peace Prissy,
Quote from: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 01:29:03 PMI think it is not "whoever witnesses" but "whoever was present" (note the verse is in past tense).
Yes thank you for correcting me. The verb is in the past tense. So it is better translated as "whoever amongst you witnessed". However, I disagree that it simply means "was present". One can be present during an event but not witness it. Also, The passage clearly says "whoever
amongst you witnessed". This means that there are some "
amongst you" who would witness and others would not. Since all are present, being present is not enough.
Also, please remember that the passage clearly said "whoever witnessed" not "whoever was told by someone who witnessed".
Quote from: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 01:29:03 PMEven if the English word used is 'witness', it does not necessarily mean "by sight" only.
I agree. How one witnesses is dependent on what is witnessed. There is nothing to witness about a "month". For example, there is nothing to witness about December. It is simply the arbitrary period that some people agreed upon would be called December. Similarly, there is nothing to witness about Shaaban. It is simply the arbitrary period that some people agreed upon to be called Shaaban. On the other hand, one can witness cosmic phenomenon with his or her eyes or witness a musical recitation with his or her ears.
Quote from: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 01:29:03 PMBlind, deaf and dumb are all subjected to fasting and the exception eased on the sickly, travelers and the destitute provided they complete the favor in due course.
No, even 100% healthy people are not obligated to fast if they can't witness. Thus, people
amongst us here who don't even know what "shahr ramadan" means let alone how to witness it, would be exempted from fasting.
Quote from: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 01:29:03 PMThe question begs: where in the Quran is the clear command that prohibits from eating and drinking? The word 'fasting' itself is undefined.
The Arabic word "swm" simply means "abstaining from something". However, 2:187 specifcally tells us that we can have sexual activity and eat and drink only during the night of the fast.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 01:59:57 PMSo in your opinion a blind person is not allowed to give witness?
No. It depends on what they are witnessing. If they are witnessing that they heard a certain sound then of course they can witness. This would be the same situation if you or I were blind folded by a thief while we were asleep and he or she robbed us. We can't witness that we saw him or her but if he spoke then we can witness that we heard his voice. See my response above to Prissy for more info.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 01:59:57 PMThis sounds similar to the case of ?Blind Justice in The Land Of Pure? where ex-president of Pakistan Zia ul Haqq under ?hudood law? locked away a blind girl for fornication. I can only recall from a extract of a novel ?A case of exploding mangoes? about this true case. I believe death by stoning was passed to punish this girl named Zainab who was actually raped. Since she was required to recognise all five culprits in the court, but her testimony was not acceptable as she was not able to witness the act or the person in who committed this horrible crime.
I don't know the details of this case but certainly even if she was not raped and fornicated on purpose, she shouldn't be punished in any way. Unlike "zina" (pornography), fornication is a private matter.
It doesn't matter if a blind girl was raped by five men or a blind man was raped by five girls. Either way if he or she can't identify the attackers then she is not a witness because what if he or she identify the wrong people. In this case some other witness must be used such as a chemist who can analyse DNA samples. So again, it depends on what is being witnessed as I mentioned above to Prissy. Back to 2:185, witnessing is not just by sight but the person THEMSELVES must witness and not be told by someone who was told by some other guy, etc. This is why the passage says "whoever
amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some
amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman, all
Does the verse say (only during the night)?
If we drink and eat during the night, it means that we will have to sleep during the day. Doesn't this contradict the definiton of night and day in the qur'aan vis-vis living and sleeping (78:11 and other verses)?
Question 2: What is meant in the verse (2:184) by: "and for those who can afford it to feed a poor"?
Question 3: 2:185 "...and whoever is ill or travelling, then a count of other days. God intends for you ease and He dos not want to make things difficult for you, and to complete the count..." Which count to complete?
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 03:02:31 PM
Peace Farida,
No. It depends on what they are witnessing. If they are witnessing that they heard a certain sound then of course they can witness. This would be the same situation if you or I were blind folded by a thief while we were asleep and he or she robbed us. We can't witness that we saw him or her but if he spoke then we can witness that we heard his voice. See my response above to Prissy for more info.
I don't know the details of this case but certainly even if she was not raped and fornicated on purpose, she shouldn't be punished in any way. Unlike "zina" (pornography), fornication is a private matter.
It doesn't matter if a blind girl was raped by five men or a blind man was raped by five girls. Either way if he or she can't identify the attackers then she is not a witness because what if he or she identify the wrong people. In this case some other witness must be used such as a chemist who can analyse DNA samples. So again, it depends on what is being witnessed as I mentioned above to Prissy. Back to 2:185, witnessing is not just by sight but the person THEMSELVES must witness and not be told by someone who was told by some other guy, etc. This is why the passage says "whoever amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman
I myself have no details of Zainab's case but I think she knew the attackers and, as you know a blind person is compensated by having other senses to a higher standard than a normal person. The issue was not that she did not know the attackers but that, because she was blind, her evidence was not acceptable so even DNA testing would not be acceptable to those who apply a rigid interpretation of the Qur'an, just as you do not accept an online sighting of the moon.
:peace:
Soof Pax,
For fasting it is 30 and for pilgriamge it is 90. But one need only be present for 3 or 2 if rushed.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Samia,
Thank you for your questions.
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 03:14:19 PMDoes the verse say (only during the night)?
If we drink and eat during the night, it means that we will have to sleep during the day. Doesn't this contradict the definiton of night and day in the qur'aan vis-vis living and sleeping (78:11 and other verses)?
Whether at day or night if one is hungry and thirsty then not eating and drinking contradicts one's instincts. The same goes for not speaking to anyone for days since we are communicative by nature. So whatever abstinance mentioned in the great reading it is certainly an exception that goes against what one would normally do.
2:187 says to eat and drink until dawn and then to complete the fast until the night. Had it said to eat and drink until night and then to complete the fast until the dawn then we would be fasting at night.
If fasting is not about sexual contact and eating and drinking then what is the point of mentioning those things in 2:187?
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 03:14:19 PMQuestion 2: What is meant in the verse (2:184) by: "and for those who can afford it to feed a poor"?
But 2:184 doesn't say "those who can afford it". It says "those who can do it with difficulty". So even if you can abstain from food and drink but with difficulty, you are OK to feed the poor instead.
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 03:14:19 PMQuestion 3: 2:185 "...and whoever is ill or travelling, then a count of other days. God intends for you ease and He dos not want to make things difficult for you, and to complete the count..." Which count to complete?
The count to complete is the count of a few days talked about immediately before in 2:184. A few is 3-10 so completion of a few is reaching the maximum of 10.
I am of course open to better interpretations, if you would like to share them.
Peace,
Ayman
Brother ayman, in order for Muhammad to address what was revealed to him, people must have gathered/present to witness his call. The question of the blind, deaf and dumb to not (or cannot) "witness" does not arise (perhaps the word witness as translated seems either incorrect or misunderstood). The leverage of fasting set upon the sickly, travelers and the destitite is pretty much conditioned as per the Quran.
Samia makes a good first point in her previous post. Perhaps verse 2:187 is grossly misunderstood. Doesn't the worse state that ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread, then complete the fast until 'fajar' (dawn)"? It then further goes on to state that "....do not approach your wives at night whilst (or IF) one decides/retreats to worship in mosques"? What's the point of eating and drinking all night long and not during daytime? Besides, was the quran revealed/addressed at night or during the day?
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 04:02:34 PMI myself have no details of Zainab's case but I think she knew the attackers and, as you know a blind person is compensated by having other senses to a higher standard than a normal person. The issue was not that she did not know the attackers but that, because she was blind, her evidence was not acceptable so even DNA testing would not be acceptable to those who apply a rigid interpretation of the Qur'an, just as you do not accept an online sighting of the moon.
:peace:
DNA is acceptable as evidence as witnessed by an expert on DNA. The blind girl didn't witness the DNA of the attackers so your analogy is irrelevant. If she knew her attackers and can identify them based on sound then this is another matter and her testimony based on sound can be accepted although any defense attorney would probably cast doubt on it.
As for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.
If you are talking about the image that Belal posted and claimed to be the sighting of the new moon, he was lying and it was actually a doctored image.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 05:33:45 PM
Peace Farida,
DNA is acceptable as evidence as witnessed by an expert on DNA. The blind girl didn't witness the DNA of the attackers so your analogy is irrelevant. If she knew her attackers and can identify them based on sound then this is another matter and her testimony based on sound can be accepted although any defense attorney would probably cast doubt on it.
As for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
I am talking about those who apply the verses of the Qur'an rigidly, (in the case of Ramadan you do it), and for them DNA does not matter nor that the girl could identify the culprits. This case made international headlines and left a terrible impression of Islam on the wider world so I am by no means trying to outdo you, but I am discussing what we read and what we should see as the essence of the message which you do on many occasions.
QuoteIf you are talking about the image that Belal posted and claimed to be the sighting of the new moon, he was lying and it was actually a doctored image.
No I am talking about the moonsighting site I followed:http://www.moonsighting.com/
:peace:
Peace Prissy,
Quote from: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 05:12:45 PMBrother ayman, in order for Muhammad to address what was revealed to him, people must have gathered/present to witness his call. The question of the blind, deaf and dumb to not (or cannot) "witness" does not arise (perhaps the word witness as translated seems either incorrect or misunderstood). The leverage of fasting set upon the sickly, travelers and the destitite is pretty much conditioned as per the Quran.
It depends on what is being witnessed. If your talking to a blind person then they can witness. If you are talking to a deaf person then they can witness by reading your lips. If your or my eyes are covered and our ears are plugged then you and I cannot witness. So in this case both the blind and deaf persons can witness while you and I can't (although we are present). As I asked you and you didn't answer, what is the point of saying "whoever amongst you"? Since in the context of time everyone is always "present" anyway then why not just command to abstain and that is it?
Quote from: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 05:12:45 PMSamia makes a good first point in her previous post. Perhaps verse 2:187 is grossly misunderstood. Doesn't the worse state that ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread, then complete the fast until 'fajar' (dawn)"? It then further goes on to state that "....do not approach your wives at night whilst (or IF) one decides/retreats to worship in mosques"? What's the point of eating and drinking all night long and not during daytime? Besides, was the quran revealed/addressed at night or during the day?
No it doesn't say ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread, then complete the fast until
'fajar' (dawn)". It says ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of
'fajar' (dawn), then complete the fast until
'layl' (night)". So you objection is not valid.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 05:33:45 PM
If you are talking about the image that Belal posted and claimed to be the sighting of the new moon, he was lying and it was actually a doctored image.
(http://www.birding.in/images/Birds/golden_eagle.jpg)
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php
Instead of answering my Questions, you are making more new lies.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 05:47:49 PMI am talking about those who apply the verses of the Qur'an rigidly, (in the case of Ramadan you do it), and for them DNA does not matter nor that the girl could identify the culprits. This case made international headlines and left a terrible impression of Islam on the wider world so I am by no means trying to outdo you, but I am discussing what we read and what we should see as the essence of the message which you do on many occasions.
Farida, do you have faith in the great reading? If so, do you really think that those who commit such terrible injustices are applying the great reading rigidly?
I would say quite the opposite. They are not applying the truth from our lord in the great reading rigidly. They don't even understand what the word "islam" means and they take it as a meaningless label that we are born with or achieved by mechanically uttering some words. You are not helping them and in fact you are contributing to the very problems that you are criticizing by not translating the language-independent universal concept of "islam" which was known even before Arabic was invented. If you want change, then let's start with ourselves first.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 05:47:49 PMNo I am talking about the moonsighting site I followed:http://www.moonsighting.com/
I am afraid you are following another doctored image :)
QuoteWe, at Moonsighting.com, calculate where the crescent moon sighting is possible for every lunar month. Visibility of the New Crescent Moon is calculated using the criteria, developed after decades of research by Khalid Shaukat, of Moonsighting Committee Worldwide (MCW).
Hmm... I don't remember 2:185 saying anything about witnessing a doctored image, a committee, or even an image doctored by a committee.
Come on everyone, help Farida out. How hard can this be? We are in the digital age where everyone and their 4 year old son or daughter has a digital camera or a camera phone and yet no one of the billion so-called Muslims can witness the new moon and post a real image????????????!
How sad. But this is what the god does to even a billion people who ignore his clear command in 2:185.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 05:52:33 PM
Peace Prissy,
what is the point of saying "whoever amongst you"? Since in the context of time everyone is always "present" anyway then why not just command to abstain and that is it?
Ayman
Salaam Ayman
Sorry the question was directed at Prissy, but maybe it meant those who live in places near the North and South pole where, during a summer month, the sun never sets, so dawn does not happen and thus do not experience day and night as the rest of the world. Often its been debated in those parts of the world how they are supposed to fast in the absence of a clear division of day and night.
Even in countries like the Uk and Sweden duirng summer months there is just twilight (no real darkness) and then the sun rises. I will be so happy if I am exempted from fasting in those months as days are really long and, in a few years Ramadan will fall in mid summer. :wow
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 06:14:18 PM
Peace Farida,
Farida, do you have faith in the great reading? If so, do you really think that those who commit such terrible injustices are applying the great reading rigidly?
Peace,
Ayman
Of course they are not following the Quran but if we insist on literal meanings of the Arabic than according to some a deaf person would not be able to divorce his wife as he can not utter world talaq.
QuoteI am afraid you are following another doctored image
I was not following any image just the calculation of moon cycle by new techonology/websites.
QuoteHmm... I don't remember 2:185 saying anything about witnessing a doctored image, a committee, or even an image doctored by a committee.
Come on everyone, help Farida out. How hard can this be? We are in the digital age where everyone and their 4 year old son or daughter has a digital camera or a camera phone and yet no one of the billion so-called Muslims can witness the new moon and post a real image????????????!
How sad. But this is what the god does to even a billion people who ignore his clear command in 2:185.
Does the great reading mention an image by the digital camera or do we have a tug of war here who wins the arguments??????
I have posted above my understanding of those "who witness/whoever amongst you" in an earlier post and would welcome your comments.
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 05:08:06 PM
But 2:184 doesn't say "those who can afford it". It says "those who can do it with difficulty". So even if you can abstain from food and drink but with difficulty, you are OK to feed the poor instead.
Salaam Ayman
Thanks for your response
Why is it (with difficulty)? What's the meaning of (Taaqa: طاقة, the verbal noun of yuteeq) in these verses:
2:249: "They say: We have no power this day against Goliath". In other words, we cannot afford fighting Goliath, not we cannot afford with difficulty fighting Goliath;
2:286: "Our lord, ....and do not put upon us a burden greater than we have strength to bear..." in other words, greater than we are able to, than we can afford.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 06:17:16 PMSorry the question was directed at Prissy, but maybe it meant those who live in places near the North and South pole where, during a summer month, the sun never sets, so dawn does not happen and thus do not experience day and night as the rest of the world. Often its been debated in those parts of the world how they are supposed to fast in the absence of a clear division of day and night.
Even in countries like the Uk and Sweden duirng summer months there is just twilight (no real darkness) and then the sun rises. I will be so happy if I am exempted from fasting in those months as days are really long and, in a few years Ramadan will fall in mid summer. :wow
Those who find hardship in fasting regardless of the reason can feed a poor person according to 2:185.
The question was about Prissy saying that "shahad" doesn't mean "witness" but simply means being "pesent". Your answer doesn't address the question since people in Sweden or anywhere on earth are also "present".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Every one'
The word "Shahed" means Testify, according to the Quran;
An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran:
شَهِدَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّهُ ۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَأُوْلُواْ ٱلۡعِلۡمِ قَآٮِٕمَۢا بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۚ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَڪِيمُ (١٨)
Allah Testifies (Shahed) that there is no god but He, and angels and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice: There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3-18)
I testify (Ashadu) that there is No God But Allah, without Seeing Him.
قُلۡ أَىُّ شَىۡءٍ أَكۡبَرُ شَہَـٰدَةً۬ۖ قُلِ ٱللَّهُۖ شَہِيدُۢ بَيۡنِى وَبَيۡنَكُمۡۚ وَأُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِۦ وَمَنۢ بَلَغَۚ أَٮِٕنَّكُمۡ لَتَشۡہَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ ءَالِهَةً أُخۡرَىٰۚ قُل لَّآ أَشۡہَدُۚ قُلۡ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬ وَإِنَّنِى بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّمَّا تُشۡرِكُونَ (١٩)
Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is Witness between me and you: this Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him. (6-19)
Now Why Ayman insisting that ones must SEE The MOON if they Want To Fast.
According to God, Shahad means testify or witness by true knowledge.
Peace Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 06:49:06 PMWhy is it (with difficulty)? What's the meaning of (Taaqa: طاقة, the verbal noun of yuteeq) in these verses:
2:249: "They say: We have no power this day against Goliath". In other words, we cannot afford fighting Goliath, not we cannot afford with difficulty fighting Goliath;
It means we can't do it even with difficulty. If they say they can't do it with ease then they are admitting to be lazy and cowards. But if they say they can't do it with difficulty then "dificulty" is their excuse. I hope you see the difference.
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 06:49:06 PM2:286: "Our lord, ....and do not put upon us a burden greater than we have strength to bear..." in other words, greater than we are able to, than we can afford.
Exactly. It is not "do not burden us with what we can't carry easily" (otherwise we are lazy) it is "do not burden us with what we can't carry even with great difficulty".
Let me ask you a couple of questions.
When you say to someone in Arabic "Ana tayiq al7arr" then what does this mean? Does it mean that you can easily take the heat or you can take it with difficulty?
Also, when you say to someone in Arabic "Ana la atiq al7arr" then what does this mean? Does it mean that you can't take the heat even though it is easy on you or you can't take it even with great difficulty?
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Belal
I also thought of the meaning "to testify", but descarded it immediately after scanning this verb in the qur'aan and how it is used.. The verb "yashhadu" meaning "to testify" does not take a direct object. You cannot find in the qur'aan "yashhadu something" meaning to testify. It's to testify THAT or testify ON/UPON something/someone (yashhadu unna/inna or yashhadu 3ala), or just yashhadu without being followed directly by the object.
In the case this verb is followed directly by the object (as the case of the verse we are discussing), then it means to witness.
I hope others try to search this verb in the qur'aan in case I missed something.
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 06:50:45 PM
Peace Farida,
Those who find hardship in fasting regardless of the reason can feed a poor person according to 2:185.
Peace,
Ayman
This is the blessing of our Lord, but I was talking about excemption from fasting.
QuoteThe question was about Prissy saying that "shahad" doesn't mean "witness" but simply means being "pesent". Your answer doesn't address the question since people in Sweden or anywhere on earth are also "present".
Sorry I should have explained I was reffering to "whoever amongst you" witness the clear division of day and night" and even if people in Sweden are present they do not ger to witness night and dark night most summer months.
Brother Bilal in his last post has given "An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran" and I would now follow your response to that.
Thanks for addressing my questions.
:peace:
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 07:09:51 PM
Salaam Belal
I also thought of the meaning "to testify", but descarded it immediately after scanning this verb in the qur'aan and how it is used.. The verb "yashhadu" meaning "to testify" does not take a direct object. You cannot find in the qur'aan "yashhadu something" meaning to testify. It's to testify THAT or testify ON/UPON something/someone (yashhadu unna/inna or yashhadu 3ala), or just yashhadu without being followed directly by the object.
In the case this verb is followed directly by the object (as the case of the verse we are discussing), then it means to witness.
I hope others try to search this verb in the qur'aan in case I missed something.
Do You Witness that Allah Exist?
And if Yes, is your testimony based on your seeing of Allah or something else?
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 06:36:50 PMOf course they are not following the Quran but if we insist on literal meanings of the Arabic than according to some a deaf person would not be able to divorce his wife as he can not utter world talaq.
Where does it say in the great reading that divorce is about uttering a word? I think that you are confusing what you learned from traditions with what is in the great reading. No wonder you don't want to follow the great reading rigidly.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 06:36:50 PMI was not following any image just the calculation of moon cycle by new techonology/websites.
You clearly said you followed the "moonsighting" site. I am afraid that you are following a grossly and misleadingly titled website. If they can't even be truthful about the simple matter of the title of the site then I doubt they are truthful about anything.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 06:36:50 PMDoes the great reading mention an image by the digital camera or do we have a tug of war here who wins the arguments??????
But you can't even present a digital image by a digital camera. What you showed is an artificial doctored image. As I said, it is pathetic that 1 billion so-called Muslims in this information age can't even post a real image of the actual new moon from last Sunday or Saturday.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 06:36:50 PMI have posted above my understanding of those "who witness/whoever amongst you" in an earlier post and would welcome your comments.
:peace:
Thank you and I answered.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belalhammad on September 03, 2008, 07:18:49 PM
Do You Witness that Allah Exist?
And if Yes, is your testimony based on your seeing of Allah or something else?
That's exactly what I am saying:
The verb here means testify: ashhadu alla (an laa:
that there's no) God but God. God here is not a direct object. This cannot be to witness. I do not say (ashhadu allah)
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Peace Farida,
Where does it say in the great reading that divorce is about uttering a word? I think that you are confusing what you learned from traditions with what is in the great reading. No wonder you don't want to follow the great reading rigidly.
You clearly said you followed the "moonsighting" site. I am afraid that you are following a grossly and misleadingly titled website. If they can't even be truthful about the simple matter of the title of the site then I doubt they are truthful about anything.
Salaam Ayman,
No I am not confused I was talking of the jewish "gett" style divorce by this free minder who wrote this:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596857.0
Re: Divorce: State versus Islam
? Reply #24 on: August 13, 2008, 04:23:27 AM ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam dotty. As I said previously there is no mention of marriage or divorce in the Quran. Asking me for the procedure for divorce is a waste of your time.
However, if you are asking me to outline the procedure for talaq in the Quran, I can give you a skeleton outline. This is not a comprehensive answer because every single talaq is different, with crossover issues, relating in large part to the discretionary decisions of the zawj, and their actions. This outline applies to two normal people and their nikah. May Allah forgive me if I make an error.
The first stage in talaq is for either zawj to request an arbitration, wherein either party appoints their chosen arbitrator from amongst their people, briefs the arbitrator on the issues, then the arbitrators meet and go through the issues and come to a decision as to the issues. The parties are advised to comply with the decision of the arbitrators. There must be a reasonable time frame in the execution of the arbitration so as to allow enough time for both parties to discharge their duties to Allah. The arbitration must be complete as the first step before a talaq can move to the second stage.
The second stage is the pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties begin to come to a decision as to the issues of mahr and maintenance. According to Allah these issues are to be decided by the parties themselves. There is a mandatory waiting period here again prescribed by Allah. The first pronouncement of talaq and the waiting period must be complete before moving on to the third stage.
The third stage is the second pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties abide by another mandatory waiting period. At the end of the second waiting period comes the fourth and final stage.
The fourth stage is the separation of the zawj and the completion of the requirements of the talaq and the wife is free to leave the husband.
This is a skeleton outline of the process, when going through this process a person must be careful that all the requirements are met. This outline is based on verses of the Quran.
Allah is the lawgiver.QuoteAs I said, it is pathetic that 1 billion so-called Muslims in this information age can't even post a real image of the actual new moon from last Sunday or Saturday.
Thank you and I answered.
Peace,
Ayman
I am sorry; for you the Muslim world may include just the rich, but there are those who do not own a digital camera.
Yes the state of 1 billion so-called Muslims is pathetic and there's no chance that it will improve in the near future. :'(
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 07:10:37 PMThis is the blessing of our Lord, but I was talking about excemption from fasting.
As you saw, this is the exemption due to hardship of any sort, including too long days. It has nothing to do with witnessing anything.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 07:10:37 PMSorry I should have explained I was reffering to "whoever amongst you" witness the clear division of day and night" and even if people in Sweden are present they do not ger to witness night and dark night most summer months.
But there is no reference to "day and night". The passage clearly says whoever witnesses the "shahr" (according to me the well known and easily witnessed by everyone "scorching full-moon" and according to you some vague and un-witnessable "month" with a meaningless name that doesn't portray reality).
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 07:10:37 PMBrother Bilal in his last post has given "An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran" and I would now follow your response to that.
I already explained previously how witnessing something is dependent on what it is we are witnessing. There are bigger issues than wasting time repeating myself for someone who has demonstrated to me that he is only looking in the great reading for excuses to justify following traditions.
The word "shahada" simply means "witness". Therefore, it is not surprising that you can't witness "the god" with any senses or even your mind. You can only witness that there is no god except the god. In other words, you can witness that there is only one god. The god chooses words very carefully. The god's words are universal so they are not dependent on some committee coming up with a doctored image of the new moon. They were as true hundreds of years ago as they are now and in the future. You only cause hardship on yourself by ignoring what 2:185 is saying and the clear meaning of a key word such as "ramadan".
By the way, you didn't answer my question. Do you have faith in the great reading?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 07:33:13 PM
That's exactly what I am saying:
The verb here means testify: ashhadu alla (an laa: that there's no) God but God. God here is not a direct object. This cannot be to witness. I do not say (ashhadu allah)
لِّيَشۡهَدُواْ مَنَـٰفِعَ لَهُمۡ وَيَذۡڪُرُواْ ٱسۡمَ ٱللَّهِ فِىٓ أَيَّامٍ۬ مَّعۡلُومَـٰتٍ عَلَىٰ مَا رَزَقَهُم مِّنۢ بَهِيمَةِ ٱلۡأَنۡعَـٰمِۖ فَكُلُواْ مِنۡہَا وَأَطۡعِمُواْ ٱلۡبَآٮِٕسَ ٱلۡفَقِيرَ (٢٨)
"That they may witness the benefits for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed over the cattle which He has provided for them: then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. (22-28)
What do you witness in Hajj?
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 07:49:42 PMNo I am not confused I was talking of the jewish "gett" style divorce by this free minder who wrote this:
I am really surprised and dissapointed. I thought that you were more intelligent and critical minded than to accept such nonsense and then claim that it is due to following the great reading "too rigidly".
Quote
...This outline is based on verses of the Quran.
Not.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 07:49:42 PMI am sorry; for you the Muslim world may include just the rich, but there are those who do not own a digital camera.
This has nothing to do with rich or poor. It has to do with the so-called Muslim world relying on a Mullah or a committee or their government to witness for them. They fail to see the universal spirit of 2:185. It has to do with ignorance versus enlightment. Indeed, the night of the measure is better than a thousand full-moons.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 07:49:42 PMYes the state of 1 billion so-called Muslims is pathetic and there's no chance that it will improve in the near future. :'(
You can help them by translating the word "muslim" and show them that it is not a meaningless title that they were born with instead of contributing to the problem by propagating this myth.
Peace,
Ayman
وَلَا تَقۡفُ مَا لَيۡسَ لَكَ بِهِۦ عِلۡمٌۚ إِنَّ ٱلسَّمۡعَ وَٱلۡبَصَرَ وَٱلۡفُؤَادَ كُلُّ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ كَانَ عَنۡهُ مَسۡـُٔولاً۬ (٣٦)
And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of feeling will be enquired into. (17-36)
Not only the seeing, but the hearing and the reasoning of humans are equal in front of God.
رُّسُلِهِۦۚ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعۡنَا وَأَطَعۡنَاۖ غُفۡرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيۡكَ ٱلۡمَصِيرُ (٢٨٥)
...." And they say: "We hear and we obey; (We seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." (2-285)
Even here we can witness that the Seeing is not as important as the Hearing :!
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2008, 08:24:53 PM
Peace Farida,
I am really surprised and dissapointed. I thought that you were more intelligent and critical minded than to accept such nonsense and then claim that it is due to following the great reading "too rigidly".
Not.
Ayman
Salaam again
Thank you for your faith in my intelligence and there is no need to feel disappointed with me as I am the one who has fiercely protested about this ?get? version of divorce.
In fact I expected you and other learned people on this forum to confront this sort of interpretation but you all ignored it as if he was right. :-\
QuoteThis has nothing to do with rich or poor. It has to do with the so-called Muslim world relying on a Mullah or a committee or their government to witness for them. They fail to see the universal spirit of 2:185. It has to do with ignorance versus enlightment. Indeed, the night of the measure is better than a thousand full-moons.
You can help them by translating the word "muslim" and show them that it is not a meaningless title that they were born with instead of contributing to the problem by propagating this myth.
Peace,
I can only speak for myself that |I never relied on Mullah nor ever sent my children to learn from them.
As for teaching others well I am still learning so how can a student become a teacher?
I am off to bed or I would miss my early morning meal before dawn.
:peace:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 03, 2008, 08:12:09 PM
لِّيَشۡهَدُواْ مَنَـٰفِعَ لَهُمۡ وَيَذۡڪُرُواْ ٱسۡمَ ٱللَّهِ فِىٓ أَيَّامٍ۬ مَّعۡلُومَـٰتٍ عَلَىٰ مَا رَزَقَهُم مِّنۢ بَهِيمَةِ ٱلۡأَنۡعَـٰمِۖ فَكُلُواْ مِنۡہَا وَأَطۡعِمُواْ ٱلۡبَآٮِٕسَ ٱلۡفَقِيرَ (٢٨)
"That they may witness the benefits for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed over the cattle which He has provided for them: then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. (22-28)
What do you witness in Hajj?
The benefits !! :confused:
You see that the verb here means "witness" and not testify, since it's followed by a direct object.
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2008, 02:42:23 PM
Salaam Afridi
I am not aware of that one, but do send a link or details, even of this case of Zainab I remembered from this novel and I am waiting to see how much rigid interpratation of Quran will result in yet more discrimination.
:peace:
Salaam farida
here is the link you can read the story of zainab and her hubi imamm -e- masjid it is horraible story only bearded and turban Mullahs the descended of Abu Jahel can .....
http://www.bridgew.edu/soas/jiws/Nov05V2/Imran.pdf
Peace
Peace,
Samia, you said that taaqatun is the verbal noun of yuteequ/ataaqa (form 4). I would urge you to look that up again. The verbal noun of ataaqa would be Itaaqatun, and not just taaqatun. Taaqatun is the verbal noun of the first form yateequ/taaqa. It would seem that the first form means to be able or to be in a position to do something (may be some more meanings). Form 4 means to suffer through something or to be able to suffer through it. So they both can apply ability, but form 4 implies ability with effort and toll, and form 1 just implies ability, like qadira and astitaa3. Hope i helped to clarifiy.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 04, 2008, 10:51:37 AM
Peace,
Samia, you said that taaqatun is the verbal noun of yuteequ/ataaqa (form 4). I would urge you to look that up again. The verbal noun of ataaqa would be Itaaqatun, and not just taaqatun. Taaqatun is the verbal noun of the first form yateequ/taaqa. It would seem that the first form means to be able or to be in a position to do something (may be some more meanings). Form 4 means to suffer through something or to be able to suffer through it. So they both can apply ability, but form 4 implies ability with effort and toll, and form 1 just implies ability, like qadira and astitaa3. Hope i helped to clarifiy.
Godbless,
Anwar
Salaam Anwar
Taaqa is a noun that can be used as verbal noun according to classical dictionaries:
قال أَبو منصور: يقال طاقَ يَطُوق طَوْقاً وأَطاقَ يُطيقُ إِطاقةً وطاقةً، كما يقال طاعَ يَطُوع طَوْعاً وأَطاعَ يُطيع إِطاعةً وطاعةً. The verbal noun is "iTaaqa" which means the ability to do something (lisaanul 3arab; al-Sahaah fil-Lugha; al-Qaamuuaul MuheeT).
Quote from: afridi220 on September 04, 2008, 09:10:00 AM
Salaam farida
here is the link you can read the story of zainab and her hubi imamm -e- masjid it is horraible story only bearded and turban Mullahs the descended of Abu Jahel can .....
http://www.bridgew.edu/soas/jiws/Nov05V2/Imran.pdf
Peace
Salaam
Thank you Afridi for this link
:peace:
Salam belalhammad. Having examined many calendars, including native american calendars, then reading the suras of the Quran I wish to offer the following concepts as a way out of the apparent confusion.
The confusion is evident when a debate takes place over ramadan being the hottest month of the year, then the comparison being made between the hottest month in Saudi Arabia in the northern hemisphere, versus the hottest month in South Africa in the southern hemisphere. Obviously the hottest month in the northern hemisphere is six months away from the hottest month in the southern hemisphere.
Allah made the earth and the seasons and the hemispheres, and in such a way, that the hottest month does not fall at the same time on all parts of the earth. Allah in his wisdom established the hottest month ramadan as the month of fasting.
The presumption that exists in the mind of some people, that ramadan must occur at the same time all over the world, is a presumtion that has no basis in any authority from the Quran. I cannot find any ayat of the Quran that says "you must establish ramadan in the same month all throughout the earth"
Because Allah establishes truth and rejects falsehood, we must establish the truth as well. In order to establish the truth, ramadan must be the hottest month of the year in the location at which the momin resides. I am aware that this precludes naming a particular month of the year as ramadan. What this means in practice is there may be a third month in Saudi Arabia that is ramadan for Saudis, and a ninth month in South Africa that is ramadan for South Africans.
I am sure that readers will react in confusion. However, I have faith in Allah, that in what Allah establishes is the truth, therefore, to establish the same for myself is to bring me closer to the truth. If readers can grasp this concept, that establishing the truth of Allah is more important than slavishly following false ideas, I believe this will be valuable to them as a tool for better comprehension of the Quran.
Allah reveals the Quran in stages.
Quote from: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 04:32:00 PM
The confusion is evident when a debate takes place over ramadan being the hottest month of the year,
Peace'
Why does "Rammadan" word means "Hot", when God uses other words for Hot?
LET GOD TELL US:
Extreme and intense Heat is:
Part of 9-81 وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬اۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)
Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat
. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat
." If only they could understand! (9-81)
Why God did not use the Word Ramadan Instead of "Har" or "Al-Har"?
وَلَا ٱلظِّلُّ وَلَا ٱلۡحَرُورُ (٢١)
Nor are the (chilly) shade and the extreme heat of the sun: (35-21)
Why again God ignored the use of Rammadan instead of "Harror"
وَٱللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّمَّا خَلَقَ ظِلَـٰلاً۬ وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡجِبَالِ أَڪۡنَـٰنً۬ا وَجَعَلَ لَكُمۡ سَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيڪُمُ ٱلۡحَرَّ وَسَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيكُم بَأۡسَڪُمۡۚ كَذَٲلِكَ يُتِمُّ نِعۡمَتَهُ ۥ عَلَيۡڪُمۡ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تُسۡلِمُونَ (٨١)
It is Allah who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat
, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete his favours on you, that ye may surrender to His will (in Islam). (16-81)
Heat is "Har" and never the Word Rammadan.
فَأَنذَرۡتُكُمۡ نَارً۬ا تَلَظَّىٰ
(١٤)
Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely; (92-14)
كَلَّآۖ إِنَّہَا لَظَىٰ (١٥)
By no means! For it would be the blazing Heat of Hell!― (70-15)
NOW, Where is Your and Ayman and every body who claim Rammadan to mean Heat, proof FROM QURAN. OTHERWISE, you are Misleading People From the TRue Meaning of Quranic Words.
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2008, 02:42:43 AM
The benefits !! :confused:
You see that the verb here means "witness" and not testify, since it's followed by a direct object.
Peace
OK,
What ones can witness in Hajj?
Can a Blind Still witness the Hajj (the Benefits), as he can Witness Rammadan?
Thus, witnessing can be by Hearing or Seeing or Both.
Peace all,
From Chapter 9:
81. Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.
82. Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they had earned.
83. If God returns you to a group of them, and they ask your permission to come with you, then say: ?You will not come with me ever; nor will you fight any enemy with me. You had accepted staying behind the first time, so stay with those who remain behind.?
84. And do not commune over any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.
85. And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken to death while they are rejecters.
86. And when a chapter is sent down: ?That you shall believe in God and strive with His messenger,? those with wealth and influence ask your permission and they say: ?Let us be with those who remain behind.?
87. They were content to stay with those who remained behind, and it was stamped on their hearts, for they do not comprehend.
Chapter 2:
2:185 A scorching full moon is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever amongst you witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The god wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify the god for what he guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
It is very clear but unfortunately some people can't read a few lines down and they can only follow their forefathers like sheep.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2008, 06:10:29 PM
Peace all,
From Chapter 9:
81. Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.
Did God used the Word Rammadan to refer to the word Heat? Or did he used "Har"?
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2008, 06:10:29 PM
82. Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they had earned.
83. If God returns you to a group of them, and they ask your permission to come with you, then say: ?You will not come with me ever; nor will you fight any enemy with me. You had accepted staying behind the first time, so stay with those who remain behind.?
84. And do not commune over any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.
85. And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken to death while they are rejecters.
86. And when a chapter is sent down: ?That you shall believe in God and strive with His messenger,? those with wealth and influence ask your permission and they say: ?Let us be with those who remain behind.?
87. They were content to stay with those who remained behind, and it was stamped on their hearts, for they do not comprehend.
Chapter 2:
2:185 A scorching full moon is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever amongst you witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The god wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify the god for what he guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
It is very clear but unfortunately some people can't read a few lines down and they can only follow their forefathers like sheep.
Peace,
Ayman
::) :confused:
OK...What do you want to prove?
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2008, 06:10:29 PM
Peace all,
It is very clear but unfortunately some people can't read a few lines down and they can only follow their forefathers like sheep.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman
I am glad to see that among many sheeps you have A_A (reply 166 above), who can read even more lines down than you can .
One excludes the blind, the other exclude's the deaf and the dumb. :handshake:
Looking forward to non sheepish understanding of the bigger picture when two "momins" exchange their understanding on verbal talaq as well. :hmm
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2008, 06:47:38 PM
Salaam Ayman
I am glad to see that among many sheeps you have A_A (reply 166 above), who can read even more lines down than you can .
One excludes the blind, the other exclude's the deaf and the dumb. :handshake:
Looking forward to non sheepish understanding of the bigger picture when two momins exchange their understanding on verbal talaq as well. :hmm
:peace:
وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُعۡجِبُكَ قَوۡلُهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنۡيَا وَيُشۡهِدُ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا فِى قَلۡبِهِۦ وَهُوَ أَلَدُّ ٱلۡخِصَامِ (٢٠٤) وَإِذَا تَوَلَّىٰ سَعَىٰ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لِيُفۡسِدَ فِيهَا وَيُهۡلِكَ ٱلۡحَرۡثَ وَٱلنَّسۡلَۗ وَٱللَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡفَسَادَ (٢٠٥) وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُ ٱتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ أَخَذَتۡهُ ٱلۡعِزَّةُ بِٱلۡإِثۡمِۚ فَحَسۡبُهُ ۥ جَهَنَّمُۚ وَلَبِئۡسَ ٱلۡمِهَادُ (٢٠٦)
There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life may dazzle thee and he calls Allah to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies. (204)
When he turns his back his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief. (205)
When it is said to him "Fear Allah", he is led by arrogance to commit more sins. Enough for him is Hell;―an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! (2-206)
Do not mind what he Says, as you can note from the above verses, that is what his reply will be when you tell him he is wrong.
:sun:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 04, 2008, 07:03:59 PM
وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُعۡجِبُكَ قَوۡلُهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنۡيَا وَيُشۡهِدُ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا فِى قَلۡبِهِۦ وَهُوَ أَلَدُّ ٱلۡخِصَامِ (٢٠٤) وَإِذَا تَوَلَّىٰ سَعَىٰ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لِيُفۡسِدَ فِيهَا وَيُهۡلِكَ ٱلۡحَرۡثَ وَٱلنَّسۡلَۗ وَٱللَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡفَسَادَ (٢٠٥) وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُ ٱتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ أَخَذَتۡهُ ٱلۡعِزَّةُ بِٱلۡإِثۡمِۚ فَحَسۡبُهُ ۥ جَهَنَّمُۚ وَلَبِئۡسَ ٱلۡمِهَادُ (٢٠٦)
There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life may dazzle thee and he calls Allah to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies. (204)
When he turns his back his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief. (205)
When it is said to him "Fear Allah", he is led by arrogance to commit more sins. Enough for him is Hell;―an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! (2-206)
Do not mind what he Says, as you can note from the above verses, that is what his reply will be when you tell him he is wrong.
:sun:
Salaam
Free_Minds:
"Our Lord, we believe in what You have sent down, and followed the messenger, so record us with those who bear witness."3:53Free_Minds:
A group from the people of the Scripture wished that they could misguide you, but they only misguide themselves and they do not notice.
3:69
:peace:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 04, 2008, 05:57:31 PM
Peace
OK,
What ones can witness in Hajj?
Can a Blind Still witness the Hajj (the Benefits), as he can Witness Rammadan?
Thus, witnessing can be by Hearing or Seeing or Both.
Which post of mine are you alluding at?
Salam belalhammad. There is an interesting analysis to be had, why often more than one Arabic word means almost the same thing.
The example I came across was in studying the origin of the "Ze" in Arabic. Without drawing a Ze, if you imagine the shape of a Ze it is similar to a scythe, an agricultural tool used to cut wheat or rice stalks. If you look at the English Z, you will see the shape of a similar tool, the three parts of the Z being the handle, the arm, and the blade. The scythe was the origin of the Pharoanic scimitar, an early sword. If you compare a Pharoanic scimitar to a scythe you can see the similarity. Eventually the Pharoanic scimitar evolved into the Arab saif, the shape of which resembles a Ze. Apparantly agricultural tools were the origin of some weapons.
The interesting evolution of the letters and words in Arabic results in two ways in which one can say a person has been killed. You can either use the agricultural route and say they have been cut off similar to a harvest, or you can say they have had their head removed similar to a sword being used. Both descriptions are valid.
I hope this clears up your question as to why sometimes more than one word can be used in Arabic to convey the same meaning.
When you come to the word for hot, there is a general consensus that the word Ramadan means the month of hot ground. This is not unusual, Jumada Al Awwal and Jumada Al Thani are the first and second dry months, Jumda means dry. There is often a connection between the names of the month and a seasonal event. The name of the month of Ramadan is no exception.
What is notable is that the month of Ramadan, the month of hot ground, is a month that is readily identifiable worldwide. There is one month in all countries which is the hottest month. This makes the identification of the month of Ramadan easy.
The problem does not lie in identifying which month is Ramadan. The problem begins when people try and impose one universal month as Ramadan, that does not work. People are foolish and not wise. Allah is wise.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2008, 06:47:38 PMI am glad to see that among many sheeps you have A_A (reply 166 above), who can read even more lines down than you can .
One excludes the blind, the other exclude's the deaf and the dumb. :handshake:
Looking forward to non sheepish understanding of the bigger picture when two "momins" exchange their understanding on verbal talaq as well. :hmm
:peace:
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have faith in the great reading?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 07:58:24 PM
Salam belalhammad. There is an interesting analysis to be had, why often more than one Arabic word means almost the same thing.
The example I came across was in studying the origin of the "Ze" in Arabic. Without drawing a Ze, if you imagine the shape of a Ze it is similar to a scythe, an agricultural tool used to cut wheat or rice stalks. If you look at the English Z, you will see the shape of a similar tool, the three parts of the Z being the handle, the arm, and the blade. The scythe was the origin of the Pharoanic scimitar, an early sword. If you compare a Pharoanic scimitar to a scythe you can see the similarity. Eventually the Pharoanic scimitar evolved into the Arab saif, the shape of which resembles a Ze. Apparantly agricultural tools were the origin of some weapons.
The interesting evolution of the letters and words in Arabic results in two ways in which one can say a person has been killed. You can either use the agricultural route and say they have been cut off similar to a harvest, or you can say they have had their head removed similar to a sword being used. Both descriptions are valid.
I hope this clears up your question as to why sometimes more than one word can be used in Arabic to convey the same meaning.
When you come to the word for hot, there is a general consensus that the word Ramadan means the month of hot ground. This is not unusual, Jumada Al Awwal and Jumada Al Thani are the first and second dry months, Jumda means dry. There is often a connection between the names of the month and a seasonal event. The name of the month of Ramadan is no exception.
What is notable is that the month of Ramadan, the month of hot ground, is a month that is readily identifiable worldwide. There is one month in all countries which is the hottest month. This makes the identification of the month of Ramadan easy.
The problem does not lie in identifying which month is Ramadan. The problem begins when people try and impose one universal month as Ramadan, that does not work. People are foolish and not wise. Allah is wise.
Where in The Quran does Rammadan means Heat?
Straight Answer if you want to not drag this for ever.
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2008, 07:32:24 PM
Which post of mine are you alluding at?
your reply to this:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 03, 2008, 06:55:44 PM
Peace Every one'
The word "Shahed" means Testify, according to the Quran;
An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran:
شَهِدَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّهُ ۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَأُوْلُواْ ٱلۡعِلۡمِ قَآٮِٕمَۢا بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۚ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَڪِيمُ (١٨)
Allah Testifies (Shahed) that there is no god but He, and angels and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice: There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3-18)
I testify (Ashadu) that there is No God But Allah, without Seeing Him.
قُلۡ أَىُّ شَىۡءٍ أَكۡبَرُ شَہَـٰدَةً۬ۖ قُلِ ٱللَّهُۖ شَہِيدُۢ بَيۡنِى وَبَيۡنَكُمۡۚ وَأُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِۦ وَمَنۢ بَلَغَۚ أَٮِٕنَّكُمۡ لَتَشۡہَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ ءَالِهَةً أُخۡرَىٰۚ قُل لَّآ أَشۡہَدُۚ قُلۡ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬ وَإِنَّنِى بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّمَّا تُشۡرِكُونَ (١٩)
Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is Witness between me and you: this Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him. (6-19)
Now Why Ayman insisting that ones must SEE The MOON if they Want To Fast.
According to God, Shahad means testify or witness by true knowledge.
Was as follow:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 03, 2008, 06:55:44 PM
Peace Every one'
The word "Shahed" means Testify, according to the Quran;
An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran:
شَهِدَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّهُ ۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَأُوْلُواْ ٱلۡعِلۡمِ قَآٮِٕمَۢا بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۚ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَڪِيمُ (١٨)
Allah Testifies (Shahed) that there is no god but He, and angels and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice: There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3-18)
I testify (Ashadu) that there is No God But Allah, without Seeing Him.
قُلۡ أَىُّ شَىۡءٍ أَكۡبَرُ شَہَـٰدَةً۬ۖ قُلِ ٱللَّهُۖ شَہِيدُۢ بَيۡنِى وَبَيۡنَكُمۡۚ وَأُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِۦ وَمَنۢ بَلَغَۚ أَٮِٕنَّكُمۡ لَتَشۡہَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ ءَالِهَةً أُخۡرَىٰۚ قُل لَّآ أَشۡہَدُۚ قُلۡ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬ وَإِنَّنِى بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّمَّا تُشۡرِكُونَ (١٩)
Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is Witness between me and you: this Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him. (6-19)
Now Why Ayman insisting that ones must SEE The MOON if they Want To Fast.
According to God, Shahad means testify or witness by true knowledge.
Now do you agree with Ayman when saying that ones have to witness the Moon by their Eyes if they want to Fast?
Do you agree that "Famen Shahed menkom Elshaher falyasoma" means witnessing by eyes or Ears, or is it by Eyes only?
Salam belalhammad. There is no ayat in the Quran that says "Ramadan means heat" However the root word of Ramadan, Ramd, does mean "burn"
Your question is an example of what is called "Reductio ad Absurdum"
You have reduced your question to an absurd point. Your question makes it impossible for anyone to give you a reasonable answer.
Let me demonstrate. The English word heat is not in the Quran. You know this as well as anyone else. You poisoned the question so that it could not be answered and you will gloat over the fact it was not answered. The result of this is, instead of identifying the correct month, which should have been your goal, you can identify nothing.
Allah exposes falsehood with the truth.
Quote from: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 08:24:56 PM
Salam belalhammad. There is no ayat in the Quran that says "Ramadan means heat" However the root word of Ramadan, Ramd, does mean "burn"
Ramd is R + M + "D"; The "D" is "Dal" and NOT "DaD".
رَمَادٍ is different from رَمَضَانَ
مَّثَلُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِرَبِّهِمۡۖ أَعۡمَـٰلُهُمۡ كَرَمَادٍ ٱشۡتَدَّتۡ بِهِ ٱلرِّيحُ فِى يَوۡمٍ عَاصِفٍ۬ۖ لَّا يَقۡدِرُونَ مِمَّا ڪَسَبُواْ عَلَىٰ شَىۡءٍ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ هُوَ ٱلضَّلَـٰلُ ٱلۡبَعِيدُ (١٨)
The parable of those who reject their Lord is that their works are as ashes, on which the wind blows furiously on a tempestuous day: No power have they over aught that they have earned: That is the straying far, far (from the goal). (14-18)
Now, where is an arabic word that say: رَمَضَ
Quote from: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 08:24:56 PM
Let me demonstrate. The English word heat is not in the Quran. You know this as well as anyone else. You poisoned the question so that it could not be answered and you will gloat over the fact it was not answered. The result of this is, instead of identifying the correct month, which should have been your goal, you can identify nothing.
Allah exposes falsehood with the truth.
Heat in Quran is as I posted before, "Har" and "Lza".
Please read and let us repect the Quran as the final say (a Judge) between us, so we can end this debate:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 04, 2008, 05:52:16 PM
Peace'
Why does "Rammadan" word means "Hot", when God uses other words for Hot?
LET GOD TELL US:
Extreme and intense Heat is:
Part of 9-81 وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬اۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)
Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat
. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat
." If only they could understand! (9-81)
Why God did not use the Word Ramadan Instead of "Har" or "Al-Har"?
وَلَا ٱلظِّلُّ وَلَا ٱلۡحَرُورُ (٢١)
Nor are the (chilly) shade and the extreme heat of the sun: (35-21)
Why again God ignored the use of Rammadan instead of "Harror"
وَٱللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّمَّا خَلَقَ ظِلَـٰلاً۬ وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡجِبَالِ أَڪۡنَـٰنً۬ا وَجَعَلَ لَكُمۡ سَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيڪُمُ ٱلۡحَرَّ وَسَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيكُم بَأۡسَڪُمۡۚ كَذَٲلِكَ يُتِمُّ نِعۡمَتَهُ ۥ عَلَيۡڪُمۡ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تُسۡلِمُونَ (٨١)
It is Allah who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat
, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete his favours on you, that ye may surrender to His will (in Islam). (16-81)
Heat is "Har" and never the Word Rammadan.
فَأَنذَرۡتُكُمۡ نَارً۬ا تَلَظَّىٰ
(١٤)
Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely; (92-14)
كَلَّآۖ إِنَّہَا لَظَىٰ (١٥)
By no means! For it would be the blazing Heat of Hell!― (70-15)
NOW, Where is Your and Ayman and every body who claim Rammadan to mean Heat, proof FROM QURAN. OTHERWISE, you are Misleading People From the TRue Meaning of Quranic Words.
Now, read this:
كَانَ ٱلنَّاسُ أُمَّةً۬ وَٲحِدَةً۬ فَبَعَثَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ لِيَحۡكُمَ بَيۡنَ ٱلنَّاسِ فِيمَا ٱخۡتَلَفُواْ فِيهِۚ وَمَا ٱخۡتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا جَآءَتۡهُمُ ٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتُ بَغۡيَۢا بَيۡنَهُمۡۖ فَهَدَى ٱللَّهُ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لِمَا ٱخۡتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ ٱلۡحَقِّ بِإِذۡنِهِۦۗ وَٱللَّهُ يَهۡدِى مَن يَشَآءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَٲطٍ۬ مُّسۡتَقِيمٍ (٢١٣)
Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the believers to the Truth concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight. (2-213)
أَفَغَيۡرَ ٱللَّهِ أَبۡتَغِى حَكَمً۬ا وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ إِلَيۡڪُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مُفَصَّلاً۬ۚ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ يَعۡلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ ۥ مُنَزَّلٌ۬ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِٱلۡحَقِّۖ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلۡمُمۡتَرِينَ (١١٤)
Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?― when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. (6-114)
LET US USE THE BOOK TO END THIS IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH
dear belalhammed,
just curious, are there any other words in the Qu'ran that don't mean anything?
Quote from: rsw on September 04, 2008, 09:30:54 PM
dear belalhammed,
just curious, are there any other words in the Qu'ran that don't mean anything?
There are Names that Means nothing but the Name.
Example:
Moses, Jesus, Moon, Sun, Stars, Jin, Ramadan, Ismael, ..etc
Moses: son or deliver http://www.behindthename.com/name/moses
Jesus: based on Joshua http://www.behindthename.com/name/jesus ---> Joshua "Yahweh is salvation" http://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua
Moon: satellite of earth http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:moon&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Sun: star that is source of light and heat for the solar system http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sun&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Stars: massive luminous ball of plasma http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Astars
Jinn: invisible being created from fire http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ajinn
Ishmael: God will hear http://www.behindthename.com/name/ishmael
I'm not trying to lend credibility to the "ramadan = scorching heat" thing; I don't have any knowledge about that. Most words have meanings, however, or else they would not be words. Even proper names have meanings.
belal: wetting, refreshing http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Belal.html
hammad: praised http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/findresults.asp?name=HAMMAD
An example of a word without meaning is a gibberish word like "clufth" or "cubirm", these words have no meanings because I just invented (or discovered...?) them. Do you think month names are derived nonsensically like this, or that they are named after their qualities?
Quote from: rsw on September 04, 2008, 10:57:11 PM
Moses: son or deliver http://www.behindthename.com/name/moses
Jesus: based on Joshua http://www.behindthename.com/name/jesus ---> Joshua "Yahweh is salvation" http://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua
Moon: satellite of earth http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:moon&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Sun: star that is source of light and heat for the solar system http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sun&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Stars: massive luminous ball of plasma http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Astars
Jinn: invisible being created from fire http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ajinn
Ishmael: God will hear http://www.behindthename.com/name/ishmael
I'm not trying to lend credibility to the "ramadan = scorching heat" thing; I don't have any knowledge about that. Most words have meanings, however, or else they would not be words. Even proper names have meanings.
belal: wetting, refreshing http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Belal.html
hammad: praised http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/findresults.asp?name=HAMMAD
An example of a word without meaning is a gibberish word like "clufth" or "cubirm", these words have no meanings because I just invented (or discovered...?) them. Do you think month names are derived nonsensically like this, or that they are named after their qualities?
Peace
Did God use one of the words that I showed you to refer to spacific meaning, as the ones you stated, in Quran?
For example, when hearing the name Moses in Quran, what does God wants us to understand?
DO you know that the Arabic word that discribes two men having sex is "Loat".
Do you know why? Because they are using the name of Prophet Lut as a Root word for Man and man having Sex. Would you agree with them, or would you agree that Lut is a name of a respected Messanger?
Arabic dictionaries containe mistakes, simply because they are not divine.
Thus, the Quran is above all Books when Judging a meaning of a Word.
Peace
Hello all,
Well I am not into Ayman's camp or another member's camp in fact Ayman would totally agree that there is no such thing. The only thing that anyone should care about is the quran.(God,Quran and me..)
Scorching moon,scorching month,new moon...whatever...BUT the quran as we all know,was not only meant for this generation with their cellphones,notebooks,fancy equipment to sight the stars...it was also meant for generations before us, way way before us. & remember fasting was prescribed to those who came before us too..The thing that could be easliy spotted would be something outa the norm.The moon is always white/a shade of white but a red moon clearly would stand out! If that is so that would mean something and Allah mentions it in the quran ,why choose to look the other way. Anyone who can prove that this red moon appears several times/regularly within 360 or 365 days (in a 30 day or so interval) please do so(I doubt except for eclipse).
The red moon could be the marker for start of ramadhan (current thinking) or more accurately the 4 forbidden months. Fasting may fall into this period of time. Occam' razor-no need to look elsewhere-just watch the moon,of course not all the time...forget the mainstream calendar..But just use it for secular/work-related purposes. (so is is a six day week?-maybe another time...)
Happy Red Moon Year!!
This year I actually saw a red moon (not a full one)-I was so excited-the very first time in my life..(a little spooky though)
Salaam to all..
Peace RSW,
Quote from: rsw on September 04, 2008, 10:57:11 PMAn example of a word without meaning is a gibberish word like "clufth" or "cubirm", these words have no meanings because I just invented (or discovered...?) them. Do you think month names are derived nonsensically like this, or that they are named after their qualities?
Proper names have their original meanings in common nouns but those meanings are irrelevant and for all intents and purposes they are just as meaningless as gibberish word like "clufth". This is why proper names are not translated. So when I say Bush, if I am talking about the plant then it is translated but if I am talking about the proper name of the president then it is not translated. Common nouns fit in the context while proper names do not and translating them leads to nonsense. So in the great reading proper names like Ismail and Ibrahim are not translated into Arabic from whatever they meant in Canaanite or Old Akadian or whatever language Abraham spoke or those names were borrowed from. On the other hand, the god translates concepts that existed since the time of Abraham like "al-muslimin", "islam", etc. into Arabic so those cannot be proper names, especially since their common universal meaning fits in the context. So those must be translated in an English conversation. Similarly the word "ramadan" must be translated because its common meaning fits in the context and in fact, it provides valuable information about the timing.
In the great reading, words like "qamar"/moon, "shams"/sun, "nejoom"/stars, "ins"/humans, "jin"/fantasies, "ramadan"/scorching are all common nouns and they should be translated and their meanings fit in the context. The trick of turning common universal concepts into proper names to mislead people has been used by hypocrites and deceivers throughout history and unfortunately we are seeing it here on this thread. So for example, now "ramadan" the central word in 2:185 becomes meaningless so people can justify following their forefathers in fasting a completely random month and it was used by politicians to make a Michiavilian unpatriotic law into the PATRIOT Act. For more info on the timing issue, you can see the following article:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Rajah on September 04, 2008, 11:33:45 PM
The moon is always white/a shade of white but a red moon clearly would stand out! If that is so that would mean something and Allah mentions it in the quran ,why choose to look the other way.
Peace
Scorching Moon is discribed as Follow:
وَخَسَفَ ٱلۡقَمَرُ (٨) وَجُمِعَ ٱلشَّمۡسُ وَٱلۡقَمَرُ (٩)
And the moon is (Kussef) eclipsed. (75-8)
And the sun and moon are joined together― (75-9)
Why God did not use the word Rammadan to discrib such an event? :!
Peace Rajah,
Quote from: Rajah on September 04, 2008, 11:33:45 PMWell I am not into Ayman's camp or another member's camp in fact Ayman would totally agree that there is no such thing. The only thing that anyone should care about is the quran.(God,Quran and me..)
Scorching moon,scorching month,new moon...whatever...BUT the quran as we all know,was not only meant for this generation with their cellphones,notebooks,fancy equipment to sight the stars...it was also meant for generations before us, way way before us. & remember fasting was prescribed to those who came before us too..The thing that could be easliy spotted would be something outa the norm.The moon is always white/a shade of white but a red moon clearly would stand out! If that is so that would mean something and Allah mentions it in the quran ,why choose to look the other way. Anyone who can prove that this red moon appears several times/regularly within 360 or 365 days (in a 30 day or so interval) please do so(I doubt except for eclipse).
The red moon could be the marker for start of ramadhan (current thinking) or more accurately the 4 forbidden months. Fasting may fall into this period of time. Occam' razor-no need to look elsewhere-just watch the moon,of course not all the time...forget the mainstream calendar..But just use it for secular/work-related purposes. (so is is a six day week?-maybe another time...)
Happy Red Moon Year!!
This year I actually saw a red moon (not a full one)-I was so excited-the very first time in my life..(a little spooky though)
Salaam to all..
Indeed it is all very simple and easy. We would only make it harder on ourselves by ignoring the truth from our lord and instead trying to desperately fit the great reading into the traditional timing. It is good to have debates as long as everyone is focused on the truth. However, there is no benefit when people are focused on arguing for the sake of arguing or for the sake of justifying traditional preconceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all:
Happy Rammadan Gift for you, understand the Red Moon here:
http://oblate-spheroid.blogspot.com/2008/02/leap-year-red-moon-lunar-eclipse.html
Now, does it happen only in summer?
Quote from: belalhammad on September 04, 2008, 08:22:53 PM
your reply to this:
(quoting yourself)
Was as follow:
(quoting yourself again)
Which of the two quotes is posted by me? :nope:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 04, 2008, 08:22:53 PM
Now do you agree with Ayman when saying that ones have to witness the Moon by their Eyes if they want to Fast?
Do you agree that "Famen Shahed menkom Elshaher falyasoma" means witnessing by eyes or Ears, or is it by Eyes only?
Do
you agree that one has to witness the moon if they want to fast?
Quote from: belalhammad on September 04, 2008, 11:46:01 PM
Peace
Scorching Moon is discribed as Follow:
وَخَسَفَ ٱلۡقَمَرُ (٨) وَجُمِعَ ٱلشَّمۡسُ وَٱلۡقَمَرُ (٩)
And the moon is (Kussef) eclipsed. (75-8)
And the sun and moon are joined together― (75-9)
Why God did not use the word Rammadan to discrib such an event? :!
Hello bro! Of course, with all due respect, what God wanted to say has been said in the quran...Well if you don mind me asking,do all lunar eclipses turn the moon red?(Honestly, pardon me) How often do they appear? If such a red moon appears in winter due to an eclipse, should we call it (just) a red moon or a scorching moon? Does the description fit?
Remember Allah does not want to impose any hardships on us therefore He could have made the shahr ramadhan (the one we are talking about that appears once a year during the hottest periods) easy to spot. Not too frequent & not too remote like the eclipse....It blends in with the easy system,30 day month(sexagesimal?)..comes back in a circle-a historical meaning to it-instead of like the current Eid falling one year in December and another in October..& prior to that,someome has to scramble to see the moon to announce "Okay I declare all should fast right about now!!" while the masses have been waiting "when..when". We all depend on someone,cannot use own own brains and it all be fine if we just follow what is in the quran...AND if anyone sincerely is not sure...don't follow..right?
Of course the handicap is language, people like Ayman and some others are the 'language tutors' whose help we need besides the lexicon stuff..As long the "handicap" is not ignorance or indifference or disbelief..peace will prevail... :pr
have a great weekend....
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2008, 08:08:01 PM
Peace Farida,
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have faith in the great reading?
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman
Sorry I didn't realise you had this question for me.
Well!!! I centainly have faith in the Qur'an but I do not have faith in the personal interpretation of one person, so for that reason, we need to debate and research all channels before arriving at a conclusion.
Now as I have replied to your question it would benefit us all if you could reply to Neil who has asked you for a clarification.
For your convenience I am pasting it here:
[Peace all,
I have read Ayman's articles on Ramadan and Laylat Al-Qadr and have questions that I hope can be answered.
Ayman you seem to say that Ramadan is around the time of the summer solstice (first full moon after it until the next full moon) and that the restrictions on game hunting associated with Hajj in the following months have much to do with the seasons and animal behavior within these months. I quote below..
"The timing of the restriction is significant, especially given that the restriction is on hunting wild-life. Interestingly, the restriction doesn't cover domesticated livestock animals (see 5:1). Why is that? The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth. By killing a wild female animal, you are not only killing it but you would also be inadvertently killing all its new-born off-spring who cannot feed and fend for themselves...."
"...Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine. There is nothing in the great reading that indicates that they should be the same for people all over the world. We should orient our direction to the truth from our Lord wherever we are, whether in the Southern or Northern hemisphere (see 2:149). "
I understand that Ayman means that in the Southern Hemisphere Ramadan will take place after the first full moon after the summer solstice here (I am in Australia) ie after 22 December. Consequently I also take Ayman to mean that we will also have our own 'sacred/restricted months' in which we in the Southern Hemisphere will observe our own Hajj in the months after our Ramadan and hunting restrictions which are appropriate in those months?
If there are 2 Ramadans does it not follow that there are also two sets of sacred months/hajj? Will the location of Hajj cater to pilgrims over a period of 6 months in the year or are there two different locations? surely not?
It also follows that there would be two laylat al-qadr per year? Will there not also be two calendars with two different new years day as the count of full moon months is to begin in the period between one summer solstice to the next?
Thanks for your clarification
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
:hmm According to your learned friend A_A okey, it doesn't matter if we have two sets of sacred months/hajj as the aim is to preserve wild life and its doesnt matter that momins fast where ever they happen to face the scorching moon, but which laylat al-qadr should be taken as the real one, mentioned in the Qur'an ???
Look forward to your contribution
:peace:
Quote from: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 09:44:57 AM
Hello bro! Of course, with all due respect, what God wanted to say has been said in the quran...Well if you don mind me asking,do all lunar eclipses turn the moon red?(Honestly, pardon me) How often do they appear? If such a red moon appears in winter due to an eclipse, should we call it (just) a red moon or a scorching moon? Does the description fit?
Peace,
We do not need to play around; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to happen in June; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to be "Shahar Rammadan".
Now; after I showed you the Verse where ALLAH Calls Such Event As "Kosef El Kamar" and Not Shahar Rammadn; and after I posted a very reliable Link that explains why Red Moon occurs, and shows that it Happen in Winter, Summer, or Spring and Fall.
Now, are you still trying to find more excuse for Ayman's Propaganda?
Quote from: Samia on September 05, 2008, 03:50:37 AM
Do you agree that one has to witness the moon if they want to fast?
Please, clairfy to Which Stage (e.g., Crescent or Full) of the Moon you are refering to, and what Color (Red or the common Collor--White)?
Quote from: Samia on September 05, 2008, 03:13:28 AM
Which of the two quotes is posted by me? :nope:
NONE of Them :rotfl:
Sorry about that, I will try one more time
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2008, 07:09:51 PM
Salaam Belal
I also thought of the meaning "to testify", but descarded it immediately after scanning this verb in the qur'aan and how it is used.. The verb "yashhadu" meaning "to testify" does not take a direct object. You cannot find in the qur'aan "yashhadu something" meaning to testify. It's to testify THAT or testify ON/UPON something/someone (yashhadu unna/inna or yashhadu 3ala), or just yashhadu without being followed directly by the object.
In the case this verb is followed directly by the object (as the case of the verse we are discussing), then it means to witness.
I hope others try to search this verb in the qur'aan in case I missed something.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 05, 2008, 01:56:58 PM
Peace,
We do not need to play around; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to happen in June; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to be "Shahar Rammadan".
Now; after I showed you the Verse where ALLAH Calls Such Event As "Kosef El Kamar" and Not Shahar Rammadn; and after I posted a very reliable Link that explains why Red Moon occurs, and shows that it Happen in Winter, Summer, or Spring and Fall.
Salaam Bilahhammad
I would like to add this; in fairness I would say that there's doubt that, the month of Ramadan we are observing is actually the right one. I have seen, even in my own life time, how relegious organizations have played with the sighting of the moon and how Saudies control when to start Ramadan so that Hajj may fall in convenient days to accomodate huge number of Hajjis.
I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.
For that reason I have pasted above some very valid questions for deliberations from all who can contribute including Nun de plume.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2008, 02:18:02 PM
Salaam Bilahhammad
I would like to add this; in fairness I would say that there's doubt that, the month of Ramadan we are observing is actually the right one. I have seen, even in my own life time, how relegious organizations have played with the sighting of the moon and how Saudies control when to start Ramadan so that Hajj may fall in convenient days to accomodate huge number of Hajjis.
I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.
Peace,
ones can play and make mistakes when sighting the crescent. But the mistake will never effect the sequence of the Months; after all the Crescent will have to appear and the Moon will have to disappear.
Salam
Quote from: belalhammad on September 05, 2008, 02:33:21 PM
Peace,
ones can play and make mistakes when sighting the crescent. But the mistake will never effect the sequence of the Months; after all the Crescent will have to appear and the Moon will have to disappear.
Salam
Salaam Belalhammad
True! but its been claimed that even months or hijri was messed up, and its possible that things drastically changed after the Mongol invasion;
the question arises: why would one change it unless there was some political reason to do so?
However no one can reject that the moon is used to calculate the year or, as Ayman says the 12 moons and as Neil said :
It also follows that there would be two laylat al-qadr per year? Will there not also be two calendars with two different new years day as the count of the full moon months is to begin in the period between one summer solstice and the next? I am waiting for Ayman to clarify, in such a scenario, which would be the actual laylat al-qadr, as its definitely one night per year.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2008, 05:39:54 PM
Salaam Belalhammad
True! but its been claimed that even months or hijri was messed up, and its possible that things drastically changed after the Mongol invasion;
Peace,
Rumors are what you will hear, but truth is what you should believe.
Our Rammadan Month has been comming in its respected turn after Shaban; There is no Moslem contry or sect will disagree that Rammadan month this year is between September 1 thru October 1.
By the way, did you watch the Scorching Moon Video in the Link I provided?
It is amazing!!!
Quote from: belalhammad on September 05, 2008, 06:11:58 PM
Peace,
By the way, did you watch the Scorching Moon Video in the Link I provided?
It is amazing!!!
Yes I did and I understand very well what you posted and looked at it too
However I am waiting for Ayman to resolve the two laylat al-qadr scenario. :-XMaybe it's Friday night so not many want to sit on this site but I will be waiting for a response.
:hmm
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2008, 01:30:48 PMWell!!! I centainly have faith in the Qur'an but I do not have faith in the personal interpretation of one person,
Thank you for answering. It is good that we established that you have faith in the great reading because otherwise the whole matter of discussing with you the timing of the abstinence would be pointless.
Not having faith in personal interpretations is what most people say. On the other hand, here is what you said on September 3rd on another thread about who you are following:
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2008, 08:06:48 PMIt could be someone like you but surely he has a bigger following than you will ever have.
So for the timing of the abstinence you have faith in someone that you don?t know and who didn?t even base the timing on anything in the great reading. In fact, had that person started the so-called Islamic calendar three years earlier then you would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month ago. So you are currently fasting a completely random month that has nothing to do with the great reading.
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2008, 01:30:48 PMso for that reason, we need to debate and research all channels before arriving at a conclusion.
What debate? A debate requires at least two points of views to be presented and compared. I presented my point of view based on the great reading. You didn?t present anything based on the great reading or otherwise. All you presented was some attempt at a strange argument that since Umar is a proper name then ?ramadan? must be a proper name. This is not a logical argument for any debate and it doesn?t say anything about how you achieved your present understanding based on your faith in the great reading.
When your children ask you why are we fasting now, is that what you are going to tell them? ?We are following someone like Ayman but surely he has a bigger following than Ayman will ever have? and "because Umar is a proper name". Is this the legacy you want to leave?
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2008, 01:30:48 PMNow as I have replied to your question it would benefit us all if you could reply to Neil who has asked you for a clarification.
All of Neil?s questions are already explained by the fact that the restriction is on hunting wild-life and hence the restricted full-moons have to be different in the southern and northern hemispheres. Neil then goes on and answers his own questions as ?surely not?. So why does he need an answer from me if it is ?surely not??
If one is talking about the meaningless cultural names Ramadan, Laylat-al-Qadr, Hajj, and manmade calendars then yes, ?surely not?. But if one is talking about the common universal concepts of scorching full-moon, the night of measure (36:39 and 97:1), the feast, and god-given cosmic markers then surely when the scorching full-moon occurs and when the restricted full-moons occur would be different between the southern and northern hemispheres and surely there can be more than one location for the feast (hagg) based on the clear location given in 22:26 and surely the night of measure according to 36:39 occurs many times in the year every year and it is the same in the southern and northern hemispheres. One of those nights of measure which also had a scorching full-moon is when the great reading was descended. This doesn?t mean that the night of measure and a scorching full-moon only occurred one time over 1400 years ago. I hope I am clear.
If you want to have a real debate then please present how you reached your understanding of the timing based on your faith in the great reading and then we can compare and follow the best available as of now.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belalhammad on September 05, 2008, 01:56:58 PM
Peace,
Now, are you still trying to find more excuse for Ayman's Propaganda?
I said it before and I say it again,bro...There is no Ayman's propaganda for me....There is no Ayman's version! (I donno whether you give a rat's tail,
I don believe in fasting for ten days or 20 or 29,30 or 31. BTW the 10 day fast is conjucntion with the pilgrimage..pilgrimage to where?I really donno..i don follow..). For you it is your own belalhammad/mainstream ramadhan version.For me I sincerely believe God really wants no hardship. If you read the my earlier posts carefully,I was refering strictly to the 4 restricted months in relation to the scorching moon and for the record, I don giva flying ____ about your fasting month that you have chosen to call 'Ramadhan'. I just said this to sunnis now I am saying this to a fellow free-minds org member... (U may say that to me too,alright , peace to the world) I will fast if I had broken any vows...
Peace is my vow...but ....
"shows that it Happen in Winter, Summer, or Spring and Fall.'
Well done, so which will fit 'shar ramadhan'? An eclipse is an eclipse and a shar is a shar..Did you answer my query on how oftern it happens within a year?. So you are very postively sure that all eclipses will result in red moon? Moon,satelite,crescent,full moon........it all depends on the situation.Now Shahr needs to be proved that it is an event not caused by an eclipse,that's all.It a full moon that is red and not caused by an eclipse.Either it should or disapproved,right?
'Our Rammadan Month has been comming in its respected turn after Shaban; There is no Moslem contry or sect will disagree that Rammadan month this year is between September 1 thru October 1.'
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. for you....
2:185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
taken off our sweet website..'month'OOOOkay.This is the
one and only verse which has the word ramadhan..
Now lemme ask you ,where in the Quran does Allah say fast for
28 or 29 (if your month falls in Feb) 30 or 31 days depending on the month in clear explicit qurayish arabic? He only says fast therein..where man where Allah also says the month to fast will vary year to year, sunni to shia,19ers to you get the drift....Now do not point to four or five star members..Do not come up with NASA pix.
Remember Allah behind the whole shebang did not forget anything 20:52 He said: ?It?s knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.?
We have proven to you (some other guys & i could not refuse) that fasting is not meant for all except a few folks by refering to all the verses in the quran and not to NASA pix,youtube videos and the like.U wanna fast for 30 days,your own biz..U wanna see a moon and call the following 30 days ramadhan,again your own biz.....
Remember my main concern is the scorching moon welcoming a new count of 12 months. And the 4 restricted months where there's a lot going on y'all..AND also a way to establish a community based on the quran.(which was soon deserted-in the forum that is..after i mentioned hunting,non pollution..etc) My next would be having a consesus on 6 day week...
7:54 Your Lord is God who created the heavens and Earth in
six days, then He settled upon the throne. The night runs from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are all subjected by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory be to God, the Lord of the worlds.
a hint at sexagesimal?10:5 He is the One who made the sun to emit light, and the moon to reflect it, and He measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know.
...yeah yeah yeah the topics in the quran jump all over the place like they are placing hopscotch..the scribes who wrote the whole thing did not have time to arrange it?I donno -offtopic---Hey I am having fun!!!
80:13 In records which are honorable.
80:14 Raised and pure.
80:15 By the hands of scribes.
ahem....
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15421.45
I just wanted to say i have got nothing against the arabic language when I mentioned not giving a..about ramadhan.
.
Peace Ayman
To end this, please read the following:
If the following is true:
?and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide a Mercy and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (16-89)
and if the following is true:
And Allah will judge with Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not to judge at all. Verily it is Allah Who hears and sees. (40-20)
And if the following is true:
Whatever it be wherein ye differ, the decision thereof is with Allah: Such is Allah my Lord: in Him I trust, and to Him I turn. (42-10)
Then, proof to me and to all that:
1-The word Rammadan=Heat
2-The word Shahar=Full Moon
3-The Word M3dodat=few or 10 days
From the Quran, as I did prove that they don't from Quran.
Otherwise, you have no Ground in claiming that Shahar Rammadan=Scorching Moon, and we should fast for ten days
Quote from: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 09:44:57 AM
Of course the handicap is language, people like Ayman and some others are the 'language tutors' whose help we need besides the lexicon stuff..As long the "handicap" is not ignorance or indifference or disbelief..peace will prevail... :pr
>:D
QuoteRemember my main concern is the scorching moon welcoming a new count of 12 months. And the 4 restricted months where there's a lot going on y'all..AND also a way to establish a community based on the quran
Is it really to establish a community based on the Quran and, not following the majority, or joining even a bigger majority of Solstice community. Starting from the night of measure and from then on journay to secret months etc. Actually you should go back to the orignal event:
A celebration of life - standing amongst the towering stones with 30,000 others watching the sun rise on the magical midsummer morning.
It's great to be able to stand inside the sacred circle of sarsens as our ancestors did as dawn appears over the Heel Stone - much better than from behind a fence. A traditional way to celebrate the longest day of the year.
There's an amazing communal excitement at the solstice sunrise as the spiritual ancestry of this prehistoric temple is celebrated - with whoops of joy, drumming, horn blowing, cheering and applause...it makes you feel good to be alive.
This re-enacting of an ancient ceremony brings a mystical link, stretching right back through the aeons of time, producing almost a celebratory communion with our ancestors.
The mighty stones seem to breathe...
http://www.new-age.co.uk/
Quote from: Rajah on September 04, 2008, 11:33:45 PM
Happy Red Moon Year!!
This year I actually saw a red moon (not a full one)-I was so excited-the very first time in my life..(a little spooky though)
Salaam to all..
:hmm and how come it is scorching because it has taken its light from Sun God the maker
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2008, 09:54:12 PM
Peace Farida,
Thank you for answering. It is good that we established that you have faith in the great reading because otherwise the whole matter of discussing with you the timing of the abstinence would be pointless.
Ayman
My Pleasure!!!
QuoteNot having faith in personal interpretations is what most people say.
If you want to have a real debate then please present how you reached your understanding of the timing based on your faith in the great reading and then we can compare and follow the best available as of now.
Peace,
But the Hoopoe said: "I have compassed ( www ) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm with tidings true.
"I found (there) Ayman ruling over them and provided with every requisite
"I found him and his people worshipping the sun besides Allah. Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,-
Save the blind!!!Ayman says:
QuoteHence, the full-moon after the summer solstice is easier to witness. Moreover, because this orange moon appears while the days are longest, at the time of its appearance it is still daylight and it is still hot outside. All these signs are certainly not coincidental
Pagans are in awe of the incredible strength of the sun and the divine powers that create lifeThis is how You incorporate the incredible strength of the sun into your version of the great reading:
Quote:
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot
So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan") is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual, the crescent times the end of the period (a period of about 90+10 ≈ 100 days). The solstice happens towards the later part of June (June 22 or so). The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that. Thus, the start of the restricted full-moons would be on average around the beginning of the second week of July and would end around the third week in October (this is average but it could be sooner or as late as end of October depending on when the full-moon occurred after the summer solstice). So the restriction full-moons cover the time from about mid summer to mid fall.
Reflection from the sun god starting from mid summe ????
You say:
When the night of measure ("laylat al-qadr") occurs was inadvertently found. Simply, according to 2:185 the great reading was sent down in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat, which is also the night of measure: 97:1. We have sent it down in the night of measure.
Hence, the night of the measure is the night of the abstinence (i.e., the night before the abstinence when the full-moon of scorching heat is observed... linking it again to 'Solstice'( derives from the Latin term meaning 'sun stood still', ...Sun God
Similar incorporation occurred in the past:The Summer Solstice was incorporated into the Christian calendar during the spread of Christianity, and like so many of the old festivals, was given new meaning which was considered less Paganistic and more suited to the Christian festival. The Summer Solstice became the feast day of 'St. John the Baptist' Another method to mark a season/solstice was by watching the Sun or Moon from a fixed position. The method was frequently used throughout Europe, Asia, and the Americas. Stonehenge (England UK) is an example of this method. This is one of the reasons that Summer Solstice celebrations continue even today linking with the acknowledgement of 'Nature and the Seasons' and may be why they have been passed on/through different belief systems (Pagans, Druids). Stonehenge is believed to have been constructed before the Pyramids. Incidently, the temple at 'Karnack' in Egypt also appears to have used solstice alignmentshttp://www.mystical-www.co.uk/solstice/index.htm#sols
I would therefore suggest that Ayman put his and his sheeps picture on this site bellow or withdraw your claim.
Stonehenge Summer Solstice pictures Sto
New Age Events 2008 - festivals, fairs and fun
As for me I follow the Qur'an and the rightly guided messenger.
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2008, 12:56:42 PMAs for me I follow the Qur'an and the rightly guided messenger.
This is just an empty slogan used by all clueless Sunnis and Shias while they blindly follow like sheep their forefathers. Thus, exactly like them when quizzed on showing how the timing that they follow is based on the great reading, you are conveniently mute. So it is not surprising that you are unable to debate and you instead make noise with mindless argumentation to evade the question of "
how your timing is based on the great reading?". I invited you to a debate by presenting your evidence for the timing based on the great reading, which you claimed to have faith in. If you are unable to do it, then your claim just like your slogan is empty and I don't have any time to waste on your nonsense (such as "ramadan is a proper name because Umar is a proper name") especially since my point is already being proven by your hypocrisy.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2008, 12:16:18 PM
>:D Is it really to establish a community based on the Quran and, not following the majority, or joining even a bigger majority of Solstice community. Starting from the night of measure and from then on journay to secret months etc. Actually you should go back to the orignal event:
A celebration of life - standing amongst the towering stones with 30,000 others watching the sun rise on the magical midsummer morning.
It's great to be able to stand inside the sacred circle of sarsens as our ancestors did as dawn appears over the Heel Stone - much better than from behind a fence. A traditional way to celebrate the longest day of the year.
There's an amazing communal excitement at the solstice sunrise as the spiritual ancestry of this prehistoric temple is celebrated - with whoops of joy, drumming, horn blowing, cheering and applause...it makes you feel good to be alive.
This re-enacting of an ancient ceremony brings a mystical link, stretching right back through the aeons of time, producing almost a celebratory communion with our ancestors.
The mighty stones seem to breathe...
http://www.new-age.co.uk/
:hmm and how come it is scorching because it has taken its light from Sun God the maker
:peace:
Woman,you are deranged...Have you forgotten Allah and jumped on board with your imaginary pagan friends? Are you not a little old for imaginary friends.
You praise Sun God, that 's your problem,You deny Allah being the reason behind every phonemenon by calling upon your pagan infested views..How dare you mention a pagan deity!!! Allah says the moon and the sun are for markers and such. My life is dedicated to Allah and that's my problem. You go to the stonehenge and do your dance..I never ever thought about the stone Henge,you did .Instead of reading the quran and giving all of us here a better understanding of each others' views you go search for stonehenge...what.the ???.remember my appraoch has always been polite,you step outa line by calling me 'cult member' or similar degrading mantles, God helpme keep a civil tongue.. For me, It has always been Allah from the day I began my journey. farida,where did you get the idea we worship the sun? How can you stoop so goddamn low to protect your interests and views..Noone else have been so aggressive in defending baseless views yes again Goddamn Baseless views & you have to dig your pagan past and summon the sun-god and the stonehenge to harrass..To Allah all your imaginary monsters are too trivial and will be sqaushed..No 2 members in this forum will agree on everthing......SO LEAVE IT AT THAT...
God willing, I will join any quranic communtiy that i can find no matter how small,how poor and I bet we will not speak of pagan things,You go join the 30 day fast New Moon community-oh yeah you are already in (the biggest and the majority )and it seems you are the spokesperson,all the best,look for a new moon every year (oh dearwhere's the new moon ..where's the new moon..has anybody seen the new moon..boohoohoo i wanna fast and i wanna fast now!!) fast whatever month, be it 28,29,30 or 31 day month you are told to...your problem.Oh yah the Quan says ramadan comes after Shaban NOT!!
I am not a spokesperson for any Solt...I cannot even mention such a lowly thought with my mind and heart that only praises Allah,In case you are in doubt,Allah is the RabbAlamin and not one of your imaginative pagan buddies......The Quran speaks for me..the everlasting messenger..oh yes sorry,you cannot find any hymns for your sun god but you can find the beautiful Al Fatihah FOR ALLAH AND ALLAH ONLY & NOT THE MOON OR THE SUN OR ANY MESSENGER PROPHET....
BTW the night of power or the night journey are past events....why do you even bring that in...let go of the past..
Allah is my guide...The Quran is the only word of God..for some of you, mystically add your own words even they are proven that they do not exist..look the other & do things the devil whispers into your ears. and then go on summoning sungod and stonehenge mystism eew.to smear/block the quranic views. I have never brought extra/pagan materials to support my claims only the quran....
So it has come to this,I have said this to many others and this time to a member of free-minds.org :(Bismillahin Al raman AlRahim) May the curse of Allah be upon the one and the family who is lying....(you and the rest of the non fixed fasting month observers OR whoever can curse me the same) Right now I could not even care about getting banned from this forum by saying these things...I
3:61 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has
come to you, then say: ?Let us call our children and your
children, our women and your women, ourselves and
yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s
curse upon the liars.?
11:18 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about
God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the
witnesses will say: ?These are the ones who lied about their
Lord.? Alas, God?s curse will be upon the wicked.
Quote from: Rajah on September 06, 2008, 02:42:29 PM
Woman,you are deranged...Have you forgotten Allah and jumped on board with your imaginary pagan friends? Are you not a little old for imaginary friends.
Why does it have to be like this; why do you have to be uncivil when somebody disagree with you? Is that how Your Lord ordered you to be like?
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 02:39:53 PM
Peace Farida,
I invited you to a debate by presenting your evidence for the timing based on the great reading, which you claimed to have faith in.
Peace,
Ayman
Civil is what we should be like when debating;
Now here is what Quran says about timing:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 06, 2008, 11:51:46 AM
Peace Samia,
هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥)
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light, and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the calculation. No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (5)
Is it not enough for you to understand from the well-established verse that the Moon and its Stages (Full, Crescent) are what Moslems ordered to use to calculate periods of time.
وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩)
And the Moon― We have measured for it stages, till it returns like the old "3rgoon"(39)
MOON Stages is what Submitter Use to Calculate Period of time, Months and years.
Now, if the above is true, how should we calculate?
Well, if we are calculating Moon Cycle, we should count the days from the begining of cycle untill the end.
They ask thee concerning the crescents. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
What is the begining of the Moon Cycle: is it the Waxing crescent or the wining crescent? :confused:
Well, I say the one that marks the begining of the Moon Cycle--the Waxing Crescent.
Peace
God gave me a heart..there is only so much the heart can take. Offtopic:U know the opposite of muslim? It could be very well 'mischief maker'. I never wanted to create mischief. If anyone does not like my views but have thier own and very convinced of it, just say so - say a bye bye in peace..I am full of love...believe me
thank you for asking.Godbless.
Salaam members
I hope the attck stops here, and let's discuss calmly, without cursing or silly accusations. We are all here seeking the truth, and should respect each other the way we would like to be respected. Let's not be obliged to block this thread.
Salaam belal
If you have noticed, the first verse speaks of (the moon) not the crescent, and the sun, to know the years and the count...the sun for the years, the moon for the count.
The second verse speaks of crescents: why not just (the crescent) like (the moon)? Because in a moon's cycle there is more than one crescent.
Quote from: Samia on September 06, 2008, 03:30:24 PM
Salaam belal
If you have noticed, the first verse speaks of (the moon) not the crescent, and the sun, to know the years and the count...the sun for the years, the moon for the count.
The second verse speaks of crescents: why not just (the crescent) like (the moon)? Because in a moon's cycle there is more than one crescent.
Salam;
Do you want an honst debate? if yes please note the following:
جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا
وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ The Moon is what God is refering to when saying "Wa Kadarho Manazel Le-tarofo Addad elsineen wa-elhesab"
The words wa-Kdarho Manazel, which means Made its Stages only refers to Moon Stages.
وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩)
And the Moon― We have measured for it stages, till it returns like the old "3rgoon"(39)
The Sun does not have stages as the Moon; it is allways Full Sun.
Also, as I told you before, when calculating the Moon Cycle in order to know the Month and year, we should start from the begining of the Cycle (Waxing crescent) till the end of cycle (the other Waxing crescent).; as I would know that the wineing Crecsent is giving me hints the the Moon Cycle is about to end. But if I use it (the wineing Crescent) as a mark of the end of Month, then the month would be 20 days or less; and that will not agree with the verses that says the year has 12 month; nor with the verses that discribs the women period and its relation to one month.
Peace
Peace Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 06, 2008, 03:30:24 PMIf you have noticed, the first verse speaks of (the moon) not the crescent, and the sun, to know the years and the count...the sun for the years, the moon for the count.
The second verse speaks of crescents: why not just (the crescent) like (the moon)? Because in a moon's cycle there is more than one crescent.
Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 03:47:49 PM
Peace Samia,
Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.
Peace,
Ayman
Manazel is Stages; the Stages (cycle) starts from smallest untill its peak and then it will descend to its smallest.
Moreover if you agree that Manazel was refering to Moon, then to calculate the years is by Moon as will. (please note the verse)
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 02:39:53 PM
Peace Farida,
This is just an empty slogan used by all clueless Sunnis and Shias while they blindly follow like sheep their forefathers. Thus, exactly like them when quizzed on showing how the timing that they follow is based on the great reading, you are conveniently mute. So it is not surprising that you are unable to debate and of "how your timing is based on the great reading?". I invited you to a debate by presenting your evidence for the timing based on the great reading, which you claimed to have faith in. If you are unable to do it, then your claim just like your slogan is empty and I don't have any time to waste on your nonsense (such as "ramadan is a proper name because Umar is a proper name") especially since my point is already being proven by your hypocrisy.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Br Bilal has been telling you, with evidence from the Quran, how the timing from Quran should be approched yet you shun him and keep promoting your Summer Solstice agenda
If you want to read my views then they are same as those of Belalhammad, so take that as my argument and my evidence for the timing based on the Qur'an.
I follow the Qur'an and this was reavealed to the seal of the prophets Mohammad who established final version of the the deen for us. Many hypocrites since then have been busy distorting the true message and have succeeded in doing so, but they could not change the wording of the Qur'an. Attached to the Qur'an is the month when it was revealed and its has been observed since that time, regardless of what hijri you call. Many many sects with in so called Muslims have two things in common one is the Qur'an and the Ramadhan.
You claim that it is random month so burden of proof is with you.Quoteyou instead make noise with mindless argumentation to evade the question
Is that all you have to say in response to my post above? So you are mute about the Summer Solstice as your origin of faith?
I reiterate the method you are promoting has its origin in pagan traditions and I have proved that to you with evidence and everyone can search under Summer Solstice for the origin of this approach; you can call it mindless.
....
Like other religious groups, Pagans are in awe of the incredible strength of the sun and the divine powers that 'create life'. For Pagans this spoke in the Wheel of the Year is a significant point. The Goddess took over the earth from the horned God at the beginning of spring and she is now at the height of her power and fertility. For some Pagans the Summer Solstice marks the marriage of the God and Goddess and see their union as the force that creates the harvest's fruits :peace:
Quote from: Rajah on September 06, 2008, 02:42:29 PM
Woman,you are deranged...Have you forgotten Allah and jumped on board with your imaginary pagan friends? Are you not a little old for imaginary friends.
You praise Sun God, that 's your problem,You deny Allah being the reason behind every phonemenon by calling upon your pagan infested views..How dare you mention a pagan deity!!! Allah says the moon and the sun are for markers and such. My life is dedicated to Allah and that's my problem. You go to the stonehenge and do your dance..I never ever thought about the stone Henge,you did .remember my appraoch has always been polite,you step outa line by calling me 'cult member' or similar degrading mantles, God helpme keep a civil tongue.. For me, It has always been Allah from the day I began my journey. farida,where did you get the idea we worship the sun? How can you stoop so goddamn low to protect your interests and views..Noone else have been so aggressive in defending baseless views yes again Goddamn Baseless views & you have to dig your pagan past and summon the sun-god and the stonehenge to harrass..To Allah all your imaginary monsters are too trivial and will be sqaushed..No 2 members in this forum will agree on everthing......SO LEAVE IT AT THAT...
God willing, I will join any quranic communtiy that i can find no matter how small,how poor and I bet we will not speak of pagan things,You go join the 30 day fast New Moon community-oh yeah you are already in (the biggest and the majority )and it seems you are the spokesperson,all the best,look for a new moon every year (oh dearwhere's the new moon ..where's the new moon..has anybody seen the new moon..boohoohoo i wanna fast and i wanna fast now!!) fast whatever month, be it 28,29,30 or 31 day month you are told to...your problem.Oh yah the Quan says ramadan comes after Shaban NOT!!
I am not a spokesperson for any Solt...I cannot even mention such a lowly thought with my mind and heart that only praises Allah,In case you are in doubt,Allah is the RabbAlamin and not one of your imaginative pagan buddies......The Quran speaks for me..the everlasting messenger..oh yes sorry,you cannot find any hymns for your sun god but you can find the beautiful Al Fatihah FOR ALLAH AND ALLAH ONLY & NOT THE MOON OR THE SUN OR ANY MESSENGER PROPHET....
BTW the night of power or the night journey are past events....why do you even bring that in...let go of the past..
Allah is my guide...The Quran is the only word of God..for some of you, mystically add your own words even they are proven that they do not exist..look the other & do things the devil whispers into your ears. and then go on summoning sungod and stonehenge mystism eew.to smear/block the quranic views. I have never brought extra/pagan materials to support my claims only the quran....
So it has come to this,I have said this to many others and this time to a member of free-minds.org :(Bismillahin Al raman AlRahim) May the curse of Allah be upon the one and the family who is lying....(you and the rest of the non fixed fasting month observers OR whoever can curse me the same) Right now I could not even care about getting banned from this forum by saying these things...I
3:61 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has
come to you, then say: ?Let us call our children and your
children, our women and your women, ourselves and
yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s
curse upon the liars.?
11:18 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about
God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the
witnesses will say: ?These are the ones who lied about their
Lord.? Alas, God?s curse will be upon the wicked.
Salaam Rajah
Calm down I apologise for sounding harsh and I can understand that, to a believer like you, my post was a shock but I had to write that to save my brother from getting swayed by the eloquence of Ayman.
Before I say more I?ll paste for you something from Anders, with whom I disagreed on most issues but I recommend you read this warning:
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7268/1240/
Monotheists, in their zeal to profess their monotheism, have a very strong tendency to acknowledge only 2 intelligent parties, man and god. This causes them to think that anything that is too complicated for man to create MUST therefore originate from god.
This is nonsensical, for it over looks the 3rd party known by various names which I shall here refer to as Satan.
Satan is known to be far beyond the intelligence of man, and no one who considers the ongoing suffering on this planet can rationally deny that.
Rationally therefore, we can not conclude without further evidence that something found to be beyond the creative abilities of man must therefore originate from god.It could very well originate from Satan!...............anders
QuoteInstead of reading the quran and giving all of us here a better understanding of each others' views you go search for stonehenge...what.the ???.
It is not enough that we read the Qur'an we must also be aware of what goes on around us and beware of Satan so I would not stop keeping an eye on the pagan traditions and:
Say: "I seek refuge with the Lord of the people,"
The King of the people,"
The god of the people,"
From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
Who whispers into the chests of the people."
God bless you
salaam Farida,
It warms my heart to hear your wonderful words. I was not happy about what I did. I apologise if I had hurt your feelings.
Be at peace and God bless you.
Quote from: Rajah on September 06, 2008, 04:50:32 PM
salaam Farida,
I apologise if I had hurt your feelings.
Be at peace and God bless you.
Salaam Rajah
No you did not hurt my feelings, in fact I was pleased to notice a believer shaking with anger at the thought of paganism.
Best regards
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2008, 04:12:15 PMIf you want to read my views then they are same as those of Belalhammad, so take that as my argument and my evidence for the timing based on the Qur'an.
This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word ?sun? in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc. So don?t expect me to waste my time on a guy who argues for the sake of arguing, can?t read, and makes idiotic claims such as ?Moon, Sun, Stars are all proper names?. I am also not going to waste my time repeating myself to any of his mentally lazy followers who like to use the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity to desperately try to justify fasting a completely random month, a fact which is already proven in my article. Again, if you are sincere about having a debate and finding the truth then you have to let go of all your preconceptions and instead of focusing on me read the great reading and present your own case.
As for using the sun and the moon for timing being pagan, this just demonstrates to which depth you will sink and what lies you will tell to argue for the sake of arguing. It also shows once again your hypocricy since you yourself use the new-moon for timing the fast and the sun to time all your daily and annual activities.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 06:02:11 PM
Peace Farida,
This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word ?sun? in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc. So don?t expect me to waste my time on a guy who argues for the sake of arguing, can?t read, and makes idiotic claims such as ?Moon, Sun, Stars are all proper names?.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
How arrogant! You say you follow the great reading this is how you speak looking down on others. IS this how you interprete humbleness in your great reading?.
Since this discussion started you have shown no flexibility in your approach, you mock those who have less knowlege than you of the Arabic language and you are pleased with those who agree with you, regardless of their rigid views on other issues, as long as they follow you; that is all that matters.
On many important discussions, I have noticed you conveniently keep out; one example was Al-Araf's view on verbal divorce. You have put all your effort into the matter of Ramadan; I can see that you have done lots of hard work and this is now a matter of your ego but I saw nowhere in your article a proof of when the calender was messed up from Summer Solstice to luner appraoch or the Prophet forgot to explain this and left it to you to carry the burden; you only give details that hijri was added. You have given no reason, political or commercial, for the chage you claim " a completely random month".
QuoteI am also not going to waste my time repeating myself to any of his mentally lazy followers who like to use the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity to desperately try to justify fasting a completely random month, a fact which is already proven in my article. Again, if you are sincere about having a debate and finding the truth then you have to let go of all your preconceptions and instead of focusing on me read the great reading and present your own case
I do not want to discuss further with you, unless you explain to me why you base your logic on Summer Solstice? Are you...
Like other religious groups, Pagans are in awe of the incredible strength of the sun and the divine powers that create life. For Pagans this spoke in the Wheel of the Year is a significant point. The Goddess took over the earth from the horned God at the beginning of spring and she is now at the height of her power and fertility. For some Pagans the Summer Solstice marks the marriage of the God and Goddess and see their union as the force that creates the harvest's fruitsI have never claimed to possess greater understanding than you or any one else I believe in my own one to one connection with God and this connection has carried me through. You may call me lazy, but I do not want to rely on your, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding my faith.
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 06:02:11 PM
Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word ?sun? in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc. So don?t expect me to waste my time on a guy who argues for the sake of arguing, can?t read, and makes idiotic claims such as ?Moon, Sun, Stars are all proper names?. I am also not going to waste my time repeating myself to any of his mentally lazy followers who like to use the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity to desperately try to justify fasting a completely random month, a fact which is already proven in my article. Again, if you are sincere about having a debate and finding the truth then you have to let go of all your preconceptions and instead of focusing on me read the great reading and present your own case.
:rotfl:
You are a Tough Cookie!
If you want to show me you are so good, please answer:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 06, 2008, 01:48:06 AM
Peace Ayman
To end this, please read the following:
If the following is true:
…and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide a Mercy and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (16-89)
and if the following is true:
And Allah will judge with Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not to judge at all. Verily it is Allah Who hears and sees. (40-20)
And if the following is true:
Whatever it be wherein ye differ, the decision thereof is with Allah: Such is Allah my Lord: in Him I trust, and to Him I turn. (42-10)
Then, proof to me and to all that:
1-The word Rammadan=Heat
2-The word Shahar=Full Moon
3-The Word M3dodat=few or 10 days
From the Quran, as I did prove that they don't from Quran.
Otherwise, you have no Ground in claiming that Shahar Rammadan=Scorching Moon, and we should fast for ten days
Peace All;
Please understand why Ayman is defending his calender:
http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html#SECTION00380000000000000000
And here is its history which shows that it has no religous bases at Mohamed time nor Jesus time nor Moses time:
http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html
Now, ask yourself a Question, Why Ayman is doing this?
Peace
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 06:02:11 PM
Peace Farida,
This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word “sun” in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc.
(Joseph) said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear― except a little, of which ye shall eat. (12-47) "Then will come after that (period) seven dreadful (years), which will devour what ye shall have laid by in advance for them, (all) except a little which ye shall have (specially) guarded. (12-48) "Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water, and in which they will press (wine and oil)." (12-49)
Now understand what yousuf was refering to, as an Egyption:
The following is a quotation from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002061.html
The Egyptian Calendar
The ancient Egyptians used a calendar with 12 months of 30 days each, for a total of 360 days per year. About 4000 B.C. they added five extra days at the end of every year to bring it more into line with the solar year.1 These five days became a festival because it was thought to be unlucky to work during that time.
The Egyptians had calculated that the solar year was actually closer to 3651/4 days, but instead of having a single leap day every four years to account for the fractional day (the way we do now), they let the one-quarter day accumulate. After 1,460 solar years, or four periods of 365 years, 1,461 Egyptian years had passed. This means that as the years passed, the Egyptian months fell out of sync with the seasons, so that the summer months eventually fell during winter. Only once every 1,460 years did their calendar year coincide precisely with the solar year.
In addition to the civic calendar, the Egyptians also had a religious calendar that was based on the 291/2-day lunar cycle and was more closely linked with agricultural cycles and the movements of the stars.
1. The correct figures are lunation: 29 d, 12 h, 44 min, 2.8 sec (29.530585 d); solar year: 365 d, 5 h, 48 min, 46 sec (365.242216 d); 12 lunations: 354 d, 8 h, 48 min, 34 sec (354.3671 d).
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 06:02:11 PM
in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12
وَجَعَلۡنَا ٱلَّيۡلَ وَٱلنَّہَارَ ءَايَتَيۡنِۖ فَمَحَوۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَجَعَلۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلنَّہَارِ مُبۡصِرَةً۬ لِّتَبۡتَغُواْ فَضۡلاً۬ مِّن رَّبِّكُمۡ وَلِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ وَڪُلَّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ تَفۡصِيلاً۬ (١٢)
We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail. (17-12)
That is how we calculate the day; it is very clear by the Sun Cycle as I said before. But to calculate the Month, God said to use Moon Cycle and count its days. and to calculate the year is 12 Month.
هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥)
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
I hope you can read that the Moon Stages (Full and Crescent) is for calculating the year, and not the Sun (it does not have stages)
Is that all you have as proof to call for 2 Rammadan months and two Night of Measuer?
Peace Farida,
Let's focus on what is important and leave aside the idle talk. Here is the most important and constructive thing you said and I commend you on it:
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2008, 07:00:31 PMI have never claimed to possess greater understanding than you or any one else I believe in my own one to one connection with God and this connection has carried me through. You may call me lazy, but I do not want to rely on your, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding my faith.
If you do not want to "rely on me, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding your faith" then you have got to read the great reading and present your own case. There is no way around it.
Therefore, let's try a different approach going forward instead of you asking me questions and then me answering. If we continue to do this then you would simply continue to not ponder on my answers and ignore them and I would be robbing you of a chance to reach your own understanding and make a one on one connection with the god. So let's try an approach where I only give you a small hint and you research and answer the question yourself. To start with let's use this approach with the 2 questions that you had:
1. Why the summer solstice?
Hint 17:12 and 2:185
Hint use online Classical Arabic dictionary http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp to look up the meaning for key words such as "shahr" and "ramadan" and confirm which meaning best fits in the context given the above passages.
2. What was the motive to mess up the timing of the restriction after the death of the prophet?
Hint 9:36-37, 5:1, 5:94-96.
Also, when you check http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp for the meaning of "ramadan" see how some derived meanings relate to hunting.
Please present your answers when you are ready. If you don't want to present them now then that is fine too and I hope that in the future you will.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all;
Here are some links so you can learn about Summer Solistic
http://www.religioustolerance.org/summer_solstice.htm
http://www.sikhnet.com/people/summer-solstice-2008
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/travel/newsandnotes/article_1713297.php
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/107/story_10796_1.html
Peace
Hey Ayman,
This thread that you posted which reads Hot/Ramadhan is very enlightening although I must say it got washed away by several views through their inconsistent and irrelevant replies .Acceptable also are your views concerning the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies which conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientistsand astro researchers.
My question is if the northern summer solstice begins from the prescribe date of around 21st June and therafter the scorching moon avails itself due to movement of the earth relative to the stationary positions of the heavenly bodies will it be possible for the communities along the narrow parallels of the equator observe not one but 2 scorching moons every 6 months when the sun moves up and down between the notherthern and southern tropics of cancer and capricorn?
Please elaborate as I need to decide when to fast?
Thank you.
Peace Sibute,
Quote from: Sibute on September 07, 2008, 03:31:47 AMThis thread that you posted which reads Hot/Ramadhan is very enlightening although I must say it got washed away by several views through their inconsistent and irrelevant replies .Acceptable also are your views concerning the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies which conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientistsand astro researchers.
Thank you for your kind comments. What is amazing is that with all the advancements and precise calculations in modern astronomy, no scientist or astro physicist has proposed a simple and fool proof method of intercalation to use lunar months with a solar year. In one sentence in 9:36 the god tells us that we simply have to count exactly 12 full-moons in every single year. This means that we would skip counting the 13th full-moon that we get every three years. This is the most simple and elegant solution and it is amazing that no one has put it in such simple terms even with all the advancements in astronomy.
Quote from: Sibute on September 07, 2008, 03:31:47 AMMy question is if the northern summer solstice begins from the prescribe date of around 21st June and therafter the scorching moon avails itself due to movement of the earth relative to the stationary positions of the heavenly bodies will it be possible for the communities along the narrow parallels of the equator observe not one but 2 scorching moons every 6 months when the sun moves up and down between the notherthern and southern tropics of cancer and capricorn?
Please elaborate as I need to decide when to fast?
If you are nearer to the tropic of cancer then the scorching full moon would be with the northern hemisphere. If you are nearer to the tropic of capricon then the scorching full moon would be with the southern hemisphere. I think that if you are exactly on the equator then you have the choice to fast either with the northern or the southern hemispheres.
Peace,
Ayman
[
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2008, 12:43:32 AM
1. Why the summer solstice?
Hint 17:12 and 2:185
Hint use online Classical Arabic dictionary http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp to look up the meaning for key words such as "shahr" and "ramadan" and confirm which meaning best fits in the context given the above passages.
2. What was the motive to mess up the timing of the restriction after the death of the prophet?
Hint 9:36-37, 5:1, 5:94-96.
Also, when you check http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp for the meaning of "ramadan" see how some derived meanings relate to hunting.
Please present your answers when you are ready. If you don't want to present them now then that is fine too and I hope that in the future you will.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman
Thank you for the hints above, today I sat down and read again the debate in this thread between you Marie and Zenje and others. Before I started reading I made sure I do not have any preconceived notions and I also read the hints u recommended and it is very convincing, but there comes a point where all the eloquence of that discussion fades away and very valid questions from the Qur?an come to mind.
Here is what you said earlier:
QuoteThis is why the passage says "whoever amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.
a-I beleive there is deeper meaining in 'those amongst you who witnessed?.
My questions to you is if what you say above is ture than this verse gives me freedom not to fast, just as a blind person is exempted.
The verse only says ?
those amongst you who witnessed?; there is no command that I should make any effort to witness: Let?s say I was too busy or preferred blogging on my computer and did not go out to witness the scorching moon; in that case I would not be obliged to fast and could get away with no fasting.
b- I see that you carry the image of the scorching full moon on your avatar as you reminded me:
QuoteAs for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.
You seem to hold the sighting of this event as an important part of belief, whereas nowhere in the Quran are we asked to make any effort to witness it. I am sorry I'm not accusing you of anything but the importance you give to seeing this cosmic phenomenon is similar to these:
More than 30,000 summer solstice revellers refused to let a chilly, wet morning dampen their spirits as they welcomed the longest day of the year.
The solstice, also known as the pagan festival of Litha, attracts people from across the country and has been celebrated for centuries.
Stonehenge was constructed so the rising sun only reached the middle of the stones for just one day of the year.
Pagans believe the summer solstice marks the marriage between the sun and the earth. In astronomical terms, it marks the day when the planet is most tilted towards the sun and produces the longest period of daylight of the year in the northern hemisphereI am here to learn and would be looking forward to your convincing evidence to my points above and would welcome any frank discussion.
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2008, 03:47:49 PM
Peace Samia,
Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.
Peace,
Ayman
And
I still do not know how to properly use the dictionary you suggested bur I understand "manajil" means stages towards a goal/ ascending/ stages towards a manjil.
Please correct me if I am wrong I welcome contribution from everyone here.
:peace:
Peace all,
Another point I would like to share with you; The following is a Quotion from Ayman 4 years ago
Quote from: ayman on November 25, 2004, 06:42:38 AM
Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.
As you can note Rammadan is the begining of 4 restricted Months. Thus according to Ayman, if Rammadan Moon starts in June 15 (solistic Moon), then the end of the 4 restricted Months would be in about October 15. In this time according to Ayman would be Fall time.
Now let us explore the following
بَرَآءَةٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ (١) فَسِيحُواْ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَرۡبَعَةَ أَشۡہُرٍ۬ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِۙ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مُخۡزِى ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ (٢) وَأَذَٲنٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلنَّاسِ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡحَجِّ ٱلۡأَڪۡبَرِ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَۙ وَرَسُولُهُ ۥۚ فَإِن تُبۡتُمۡ فَهُوَ خَيۡرٌ۬ لَّڪُمۡۖ وَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِۗ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (٣) إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ ثُمَّ لَمۡ يَنقُصُوكُمۡ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَلَمۡ يُظَـٰهِرُواْ عَلَيۡكُمۡ أَحَدً۬ا فَأَتِمُّوٓاْ إِلَيۡهِمۡ عَهۡدَهُمۡ إِلَىٰ مُدَّتِہِمۡۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤) فَإِذَا ٱنسَلَخَ ٱلۡأَشۡہُرُ ٱلۡحُرُمُ فَٱقۡتُلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ حَيۡثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمۡ وَخُذُوهُمۡ وَٱحۡصُرُوهُمۡ وَٱقۡعُدُواْ لَهُمۡ ڪُلَّ مَرۡصَدٍ۬ۚ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتَوُاْ ٱلزَّڪَوٰةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمۡۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌ۬ رَّحِيمٌ۬ (٥)
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances.― (1) Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage― that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)
As you can note the war would start after October 15--Fall Time and not in the heat of Summer time.
Now read the following, from the same Chapter:
فَرِحَ ٱلۡمُخَلَّفُونَ بِمَقۡعَدِهِمۡ خِلَـٰفَ رَسُولِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَرِهُوٓاْ أَن يُجَـٰهِدُواْ بِأَمۡوَٲلِهِمۡ وَأَنفُسِہِمۡ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬اۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)
Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! (9-81)
Now is the period after October 15 Hot or should be...Mild or Cold? Or Maybe it was Global Warming? :confused:
Peace
manzil means stage like mawqi3 or even mawqif means situation. waqa3 is to fall and mawqi3 is the point where something lands/falls/happens at any given time. This is how manzil is used, as nazala means to descend like waqa3 is to fall (down) or happen. waqafa means to stop, so mawqif is where something stops at any given time. It's like asking someone how is this exact moment, as if you stopped in time and place. Manzil also means house/home the concept being the place you descend on (constantly). Arabic is flowery like that and very imaginative (and sometimes too specific) in its concepts. Don't blame me. I actually happen to like that about it. Makes it easy to relate to coming from a more imaginative dialect of English and having learned other languages, which involves imagining concepts differently as other languages do. Especially the languages more invovled with latin that have latin based cognates with sometimes all together different meanings. For instance mirar in portuguese is to aim where it's is to look in Spanish. Mirror obviously shares a similar root. I could go on and on. So I find Classical Arabic concepts (even in dialects) very interesting. Even how alot of dialect words were corrupted from Classical is interesting. That's enough from me. You guys can keep on arguing.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2008, 07:57:20 PMThank you for the hints above, today I sat down and read again the debate in this thread between you Marie and Zenje and others. Before I started reading I made sure I do not have any preconceived notions and I also read the hints u recommended and it is very convincing, but there comes a point where all the eloquence of that discussion fades away and very valid questions from the Qur?an come to mind.
Here is what you said earlier:
a-I beleive there is deeper meaining in 'those amongst you who witnessed?.
My questions to you is if what you say above is ture than this verse gives me freedom not to fast, just as a blind person is exempted.
The verse only says ?those amongst you who witnessed?; there is no command that I should make any effort to witness: Let?s say I was too busy or preferred blogging on my computer and did not go out to witness the scorching moon; in that case I would not be obliged to fast and could get away with no fasting.
Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that someone who doesn't fast would roast in hell. This is no where mentioned in the great reading. In fact, we are told that even those who can do it but with difficulty (yatiqunuh) should feed a poor person instead. We should fast because it is better for us if we knew. There is no punishment for not fasting. There is nothing to "get away" from.
This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2008, 07:57:20 PMb- I see that you carry the image of the scorching full moon on your avatar as you reminded me:
You seem to hold the sighting of this event as an important part of belief, whereas nowhere in the Quran are we asked to make any effort to witness it. I am sorry I'm not accusing you of anything but the importance you give to seeing this cosmic phenomenon is similar to these:
More than 30,000 summer solstice revellers refused to let a chilly, wet morning dampen their spirits as they welcomed the longest day of the year.
The solstice, also known as the pagan festival of Litha, attracts people from across the country and has been celebrated for centuries.
Stonehenge was constructed so the rising sun only reached the middle of the stones for just one day of the year.
Pagans believe the summer solstice marks the marriage between the sun and the earth. In astronomical terms, it marks the day when the planet is most tilted towards the sun and produces the longest period of daylight of the year in the northern hemisphere
I am here to learn and would be looking forward to your convincing evidence to my points above and would welcome any frank discussion.
As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.
There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 17:12. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 10:5 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 17:12 and 10:5 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 17:12 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 17:12 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.
As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 5:94, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their
hands and spears.
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2008, 07:57:20 PMAnd
I still do not know how to properly use the dictionary you suggested bur I understand "manajil" means stages towards a goal/ ascending/ stages towards a manjil.
Please correct me if I am wrong I welcome contribution from everyone here.
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something
descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.
However,the believers are ordered the fasting, therefore, not fasting without valid reason or to not redeem is disobedience to The God.
Hi,
QuoteHowever,the believers are ordered the fasting, therefore, not fasting without valid reason or to not redeem is disobedience to The God
is this a whimsical statement without proofs or quotes from any reliable source? :yeah:
Quote from: Sibute on September 08, 2008, 12:17:41 AM
Hi,is this a whimsical statement without proofs or quotes from any reliable source? :yeah:
:P
2:183 o you who have believed, you are ordered to fast as those before you were, it could be that you fear and obey ( God ). P
:eat:
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2008, 11:24:43 PM
Peace Farida,
Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that someone who doesn't fast would roast in hell. This is no where mentioned in the great reading. In fact, we are told that even those who can do it but with difficulty (yatiqunuh) should feed a poor person instead. We should fast because it is better for us if we knew. There is no punishment for not fasting. There is nothing to "get away" from.
........
.........
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Its early morning here and I couldn?t help checking for your response.
For now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like a politician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.
I look expect more from the one who believes in the great reading (which should also including points raised today by Bilalhamad above)
:peace:
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 07, 2008, 11:38:50 PM
There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.
Salaam anthonywallace
And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 12:37:28 AMFor now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like a plitician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.
Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns. ;)
Peace Farida,
Ayman
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 12:40:00 AM
Salaam anthonywallace
And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???
:peace:
???
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 12:40:00 AMAnd what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???
You are the only one here barring them. What do you have against blind people? :)
They are certainly not barred but they are not obligated to fast. I hope that you can see the difference.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2008, 11:24:43 PM
Peace Farida,
As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.
There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 17:12. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 10:5 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 17:12 and 10:5 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting:
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-MuttaqoonDoes that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???
Quote
So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 17:12 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 17:12 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.
As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 5:94, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their hands and spears.
Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians: http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?QuoteNotice that 10:5 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 17:12 and 10:5 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
If what you say is meant by the surah 17:12... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim and the passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a programme about rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes, I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as:
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solsticeshttp://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta :
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2008, 12:45:52 AM
Peace Farida,
Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns. ;)
Peace Farida,
Ayman
They are not clowns, one avoids straight answers by acting like a clown and the other displays excellent lawyer skills when it comes to playing with words.
Up and coming Obama is good with words too :'(
QuoteI would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
I :hmm Zl is common in both ?Mana ? ZL? and N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your help
:peace:
Peace Frida and All;
Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.
Peace
Quote from: belalhammad link=topic=9188.msg177136#msg177136
date=1220842056
Peace all,
Another point I would like to share with you; The following is a Quotion from Ayman 4 years ago
Begin Quote
Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.
End Quote
As you can note Rammadan is the begining of 4 restricted Months. Thus according to Ayman, if Rammadan Moon starts in June 15 (solistic Moon), then the end of the 4 restricted Months would be in about October 15. In this time according to Ayman would be Fall time.
Now let us explore the following
بَرَآءَةٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ (١) فَسِيحُواْ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَرۡبَعَةَ أَشۡہُرٍ۬ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِۙ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مُخۡزِى ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ (٢) وَأَذَٲنٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلنَّاسِ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡحَجِّ ٱلۡأَڪۡبَرِ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَۙ وَرَسُولُهُ ۥۚ فَإِن تُبۡتُمۡ فَهُوَ خَيۡرٌ۬ لَّڪُمۡۖ وَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِۗ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (٣) إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ ثُمَّ لَمۡ يَنقُصُوكُمۡ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَلَمۡ يُظَـٰهِرُواْ عَلَيۡكُمۡ أَحَدً۬ا فَأَتِمُّوٓاْ إِلَيۡهِمۡ عَهۡدَهُمۡ إِلَىٰ مُدَّتِہِمۡۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤) فَإِذَا ٱنسَلَخَ ٱلۡأَشۡہُرُ ٱلۡحُرُمُ فَٱقۡتُلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ حَيۡثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمۡ وَخُذُوهُمۡ وَٱحۡصُرُوهُمۡ وَٱقۡعُدُواْ لَهُمۡ ڪُلَّ مَرۡصَدٍ۬ۚ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتَوُاْ ٱلزَّڪَوٰةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمۡۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌ۬ رَّحِيمٌ۬ (٥)
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances.― (1) Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage― that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)
As you can note the war would start after October 15--Fall Time and not in the heat of Summer time.
Now read the following, from the same Chapter:
فَرِحَ ٱلۡمُخَلَّفُونَ بِمَقۡعَدِهِمۡ خِلَـٰفَ رَسُولِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَرِهُوٓاْ أَن يُجَـٰهِدُواْ بِأَمۡوَٲلِهِمۡ وَأَنفُسِہِمۡ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬اۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)
Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! (9-81)
Now is the period after October 15 Hot or should be...Mild or Cold? Or Maybe it was Global Warming? :confused:
Peace
Salaamun all,
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 04:08:20 PM
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon
Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???
80:1 HE FROWNED and turned away
AAabasa watawalla
عَبَسَ وَتَوَلَّى (80:1)
80:2 because the blind man approached him!
An jaahu alaAAma
أَن جَاءهُ الْأَعْمَى (80:2)
80:3 Yet for all thou didst know, he might perhaps have grown in purity,
Wama yudreeka laAAallahu yazzakka
وَمَا يُدْرِيكَ لَعَلَّهُ يَزَّكَّى (80:3)
80:4 or have been reminded, and helped by this reminder.
Aw yaththakkaru fatanfaAAahu alththikra
أَوْ يَذَّكَّرُ فَتَنفَعَهُ الذِّكْرَى (80:4)
80:5 Now as for him who believes himself to be self-sufficient
Amma mani istaghna
أَمَّا مَنِ اسْتَغْنَى (80:5)
80:6 to him didst thou give thy whole attention,
Faanta lahu tasadda
فَأَنتَ لَهُ تَصَدَّى (80:6)
80:7 although thou art not accountable for his failure to attain to purity;
Wama AAalayka alla yazzakka
وَمَا عَلَيْكَ أَلَّا يَزَّكَّى (80:7)
80:8 but as for him who came unto thee full of eagerness
Waamma man jaaka yasAAa
وَأَمَّا مَن جَاءكَ يَسْعَى (80:8)
80:9 and in awe [of God]
Wahuwa yakhsha
وَهُوَ يَخْشَى (80:9)
But... nothing about Taqwa here :-[
Regards,
mmKhan
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 04:11:54 PM
I :hmm Zl is common in both ?Mana ? ZL? and N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your help
You forgot the "N" ;D
The root for both words is "nuun zain laam: NZL"
ZLIL (do you mean thaleel: lowly; humble?) has only the laam in common, so it's not of the same root (first letter is Thaal, not Zain)
Quote from: belalhammad on September 08, 2008, 04:37:03 PM
Peace Frida and All;
Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.
Peace
Salaam Bilalhammad,
I think, according to Ayman's calculation, Ramadan would always fall after June 21 and you have put June 15 above. Maybe for that reason he is ignoring it.
I am hopeful that, in the interest of removing all doubts, Ayman would address this post of yours.
:peace:
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2008, 05:09:23 PM
You forgot the "N" ;D
The root for both words is "nuun zain laam: NZL"
ZLIL (do you mean thaleel: lowly; humble?) has only the laam in common, so it's not of the same root (first letter is Thaal, not Zain)
Thanks Samia for correcting me but, still could you elaborate Ayman's question;
QuoteQuote
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 05:17:38 PM
Salaam Bilalhammad,
I think, according to Ayman's calculation, Ramadan would always fall after June 21 and you have put June 15 above. Maybe for that reason he is ignoring it.
I am hopeful that, in the interest of removing all doubts, Ayman would address this post of yours.
:peace:
Peace,
Let me ask you Question; If Rammadan is the First rectricted month, and it Falls in June 21st; and if the end of the 4 restricted is about October 21, according to Ayman; then, Does verse 9-81 proves that Ayman theory is Wrong?
The Truth is, Rammadan had to be 4 months before Summer time.
Peace
Salam. Because of the large number of people posting, and the various opinions I am addressing everyone in this thread instead of a particular person.
The issue of what and when is shahr ramadan, is a vexing question, and has no consensus amongst Muslims. This is not the only place there is this debate, the issue of when the fast begins and when the fast ends, is also another vexing question with no consensus amongst Muslims.
Because each Muslim has to answer for their own deeds, and not the deeds of others, my first instinct is to advise Muslims to make a determination for themselves as to what shahr ramadan means, and what the black thread of night distinct from the white thread of day means. The reason I say this is because as Muslims we will be judged by our own actions, not by the actions of others.
Of course I know that this will find no satisfaction amongst those Muslims who seek to impose personal concepts on other Muslims. To them I say, remember, if what you insist upon turns out to be wrong, the wrong of what you insisted will be held against you on the day of judgment. For this reason, even if the answer that comes out of the Quran is distasteful to some people, sometimes even to myself, I will share the answer even in the face of a lot of hostility.
When I talk about personal concepts, I am referring to the concepts being insisted upon, like all Muslims should fast at the same time, or all Muslims should pray at the same time. I find there is no clear authority to support the imposition of these concepts. I for one, will not participate in such concepts until I am shown clear authority.
I can cite a clear example of where these concepts produce an irrational result, and because of this I cannot accept these concepts. Take the example of a momin, who lives above the geographical boundary known as the Arctic Circle. In the Arctic Circle one day is six months long, one night is six months long. Should a momin not eat or drink for six months? Should a momin pray only five times in a year? No, obviously not. When these concepts produce irrational results, we have enough sense to go back and figure out what we are supposed to do.
Inshallah Allah will guide all of us.
Peace Araf,
Quote from: Al Araf on September 08, 2008, 07:03:03 PMThe issue of what and when is shahr ramadan, is a vexing question
It is not a vexing question. The answer is right under your nose in the question. Just translate "shahr ramadan" and the question will answer itself.
Peace,
Ayman
All,
Ayman said:
QuoteSince it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala. Despite that we are not dealing with etymology. I was just trying to help people understand the sense behind this meaning and the possible logic for it. manzil means stage, any stage, descending or ascending. As it refers to the moon it includes all its stages before full moon, at full moon and after full moon.
To give a similar word with a somewhat similar concept going on here: Mawqa3 means location as well. It is from the root waqa3 which is to fall literally, and also means to occurr/happen. Now Mawqa3 is not where someone literally falls (although it can mean this). It arrived at that meaning from an archaic usage of the concept 'to fall'. Old English I think makes similar use of the concept to fall for location. Ex. "The old oak tree wilst fall to thy left upon the road hither" It can still be used in today's language albeit rare. Ex. "If you keep going straight the store your're looking for will fall on your left." No literal falling at all. And we need only go to the word 'befall' to see how the concept of falling is also connected to occurrence and happenings. So I hope everyone can see how the concept of to fall or descend doesn't have to be literal or order-oriented as it concerns the use of manzil. In the end no matter how far the meanings may seem to stray from the original root, if there is no evidence that it is a post-quranic meaning (the most obvious being that it is an interpretational meaning given by a post-quranic figure) then the meaning is what it is. Period.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 08, 2008, 10:04:02 PM
All,
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala.
وَقُل رَّبِّ أَنزِلۡنِى مُنزَلاً۬ مُّبَارَكً۬ا وَأَنتَ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمُنزِلِينَ (٢٩)
And say: "O my Lord! Enable me to disembark with Thy blessing: for Thou art the Best to enable (us) to disembark." (23-29)
And say: "My Lord! Cause me to land at a blessed landing-place, for You are the Best of those who bring to land." (23-29)
You are right; here God is ordering the prophet to ask for the blessed Rank (Manzilan) because God is the best when rewarding Ranks (kair El-Monzalin) in Heaven (and not the best in lowring and decending the true believers in ranks of Heaven)
Peace
Salam ayman. Simply because you personally believe that translations are a magic incantation whereby everything is solved, does not mean thats is true. Even if we examine your claim, to give you fair hearing on the issue, the phrase "shahr ramadan" gets stuck in the starting gate.
I have seen mutiple translations of the word shahr to begin with, month, period, moon, moon goddess, are some of the ones I have seen. Who is to say which one of these is the right one, I am sure people will choose a different translation for different reasons. The word ramadan is alternately claimed to be a proper noun, a derivative of the word ramd meaning to burn, and even then a dispute arises as to whether ramd means burn, when other words are used for burn in the Quran.
I am sure this will lead to forum members insisting they have the answer and that the other person is wrong based on their own personal education and biases. Some people look only in Arabic dictionaries, some people obssess over diacritical marks, some people go to lexicons, you know the drill as well as I do.
Inshallah keeping an open mind on the subject is the best way to go at this point. Claiming we know what everyone should do is improper on weak grounds such as this. Reasonable observance of fasting is the best course.
Quote from: ayman on November 20, 2004, 10:55:00 AM
Every year, a common occurrence is a dispute between followers of various sects about when so-called Ramadan starts and ends. This year is no exception and some countries ended their so-called Ramadan one day before others.
In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent.
The current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]
Interestingly, the word "hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts until much later so we don't really know what this arbitrary dating of the new era was based on.
One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.
As a side note, traditionalists also contend that the prophet first started to abstain in the second year after migration/"hijra". So according to them this means that 2:185 was revealed early in Yathrib. The traditionalists contend that Chapter 9 (where they claim there is the alleged calendar modification order) was revealed in the last year of the prophet's life. By holding to this traditional view and backdating the so-called Islamic calendar to the alleged first year of "hijra" sectarians imply that all his life, the prophet abstained on the wrong dates (see Appendix).
Another factor that the start of the present so-called Ramadan depends on is the order of the months at the time the new calendar system was adopted. In "pre-quranic" times, the Arabs didn't use a single standard calendar. Arabs used calendars based on 4, 5, and 6-season system. Some "pre-quranic" Arabs used the calendar system of the Persians. Others used the calendar system of the Jews and some used the calendar system of the Romans. The Nabataeans used to align the months with the zodiac and hence some Arabs used the star based calendar system. Rabi3 months etymology denotes grazing in spring and fall. In Arabia the rainy season, which would promote the growth of grasses for grazing, occurs during autumn. This is confirmed by what is known about Arabs using a 6 season system that split fall into Rabi3 Althani (early fall) and Kharif (late fall) prior to the so-called Islamic calendar. In this system each season lasted two months. The new Omar Calendar that we have today has a different order for the months. The arbitrary decision to rearrange the order of the months also affects when the present day so-called Ramadan occurs.
Hence, in addition to the sighting of the new crescent moon, we have two other completely arbitrary factors affecting when so-called Ramadan starts. Hence, for all intents and purposes, the current so-called Ramadan is completely arbitrary and it is no different than randomly picking a month for abstaining.
The problem of pinpointing an arbitrary month called Ramadan is the same type of problem that the Jews, Christians, and sectarians face in pinpointing their "holy" days in the arbitrary week. For example, sectarians claim that Friday, which they named Al-Jum3at (as opposed to the common noun "ywm al-jum3at"/time of gathering in the great reading), is a special "holy" day where, according to their traditions, Adam was created. What is hard for many people to understand is that the week is completely arbitrary. Hence, the fact is that the week has not always been seven days. Weeks from 4 to 20 days were observed. For example, the ancient Egyptians used a 10-day week while the Mayans used a 20-day week. The week was typically the interval from one market day to the next. Four to 20 days gave farmers and craftsmen enough time to gather and transport products to sell. Hence, when Friday occurs depends on when the present seven day week was arbitrarily adopted and which day it started with.
There is nothing wrong or forbidden with an arbitrary timeframe in itself. The problem is to act as if The God somehow has to conform to the man-made arbitrary timeframes and to say to people that The God ordered you to fast in this or that completely arbitrary timeframe or take that arbitrary day as "holy". Another problem with such arbitrary timeframes is that errors made at the beginning of their adoption are propagated into the future and get larger and larger. This shouldn't be the case because we are not responsible for the errors of those who came before us. Hence, an effective method of specifying a timeframe shouldn't be one that allows such errors to propagate. It should be one that allows those who have faith at any point of time to obey The God's command correctly irrespective of what their predecessors decided to do or not to do. This is impossible with the current so-called Islamic calendar, which as we saw is influenced by decisions made centuries ago. Another problem is that, as we saw earlier, now and in the past people used different calendars, a universal command that is to be understood by everybody would best be based on clear cosmic phenomena and not on man-made calendars.
Now that we presented the problem, let's look in the great reading for the solution.
2:183 O you who have believed, you are ordered to fast as those before you were , it could be that you fear and obey ( God).
2:184 (At) certain times ; so whoever of you be ill or on a journey, then finish at differnt times. And concerning those who cannot endure it, you redeem by feeding any (of the) poorest of the poor ; and whoever gives alms volutarily then it is best for him; and it is best that you fast, if you are able.
2:185 The Quran was sent down (in the) hottest month, to guide the people and (to) clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the entire month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever be ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants you with flexiblness and not with hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful. :eat:
:yay:
Praise be to Allah :eat:
8)
Salaam everyone
I have noticed that when anyone asks Ayman a question he comes up with his verdict. This habit goes against the practice of the prophet. From the sample of Qur?an verses below we learn how he replied to concerns raisedonly after seeking guidance from God:
2:189 They ask thee concerning the crescent moons /New Moons/ phases of the moon!. Say: .....
2:215 They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say:.....
2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited MONTH. Say: " ....
219 They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say ......
Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.
41:20 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
41:21 They will say to their SKINs: "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say: "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.
41:22 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!
I would therefore ask Ayman again: Do you still think there is no obligation on the blind to fast and, if so, where is the evidence for that ???
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
:peace:
Performance agreement
Desired Results - ( This is what The God expexts of all the believers :muscle: )
1. Fast the entire month (of) hottness. 2:184 - 185 :handshake:
Guidelines- ( This is what not to do ) :nope:
(1.)It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous. 2:187 :police:
Accountabilities- ( This is the standard performance that is expected of you,how you are to fast, and what you will be held accountable for )
(1.) Eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then complete the fast until night; 2:187 :handshake: :eat: :handshake:
Consequenses :elektro: :& :elektro:
Rewards - ( These are the benifits of fasting :yay:)
33:35 Surely, .... the fasting men, and the fasting women,........ God has prepared for them a forgiveness and a great recompense. :pr :yay: :angel:
Punishments - ( These are the penaltys for not fasting the hottest month :&)
N/A :wow :o :wow
:peace: :jedi:
Peace,
Belal, you used this verse as proof that manzil means any stage. However this word is munzal, and not manzil. Munzal is the verbal noun and place noun for form 4 anzala which is ' to cause to descend.' munzal means either making something descend (inzaal) or a place where something is made to descend (munzal). Manzil is where something descend on it's own.
Quoteوَقُل رَّبِّ أَنزِلۡنِى مُنزَلاً۬ مُّبَارَكً۬ا وَأَنتَ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمُنزِلِينَ (٢٩)
Godbless,
Anwar
48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution :jedi:
مثلهم كمثل الذي استوقد نارا فلما اضاءت ما حوله ذهب الله بنورهم وتركهمفي ظلمات لا يبصرون
Peace,
I want to respond to this:
Quotema3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
To those who can read Arabic (cut-and-paste from lisaanul 3arab):
والأَيام المعدودات: أَيامُ التشريق وهي ثلاثة بعد يوم النحر، وأَما الأَيام المعلوماتُ فعشر ذي الحِجة، عُرِّفَتْ تلك بالتقليل لأَنها ثلاثة، وعُرِّفَتْ هذه بالشُّهْرة لأَنها عشرة، وإِنما قُلِّلَ بمعدودة لأَنها نقيض قولك لا تحصى كثرة؛ ومنه وشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود، ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو دُرَيْهِماتٍ وحَمَّاماتٍ، وقد يجوز أَن تقع الأَلف والتاء للتكثير.
What I also find interesting in this quote: the phrase about the ten days of Dhul Hijja: [...and this is known by "shuhra" (derived from shahr; my comment) because it is ten (days)]
The first part of this definition is referring to the islamic ritual of Hajj and its names. The first meaning of the phrase al-ayyaamul-ma3doodaatu is a religious meaning connected to hajj rituals. Hence the day of nahr (the day of Immolation or slaughter) done on the 10 of dhul-hijjah. So this meaning is an islamic interpretation of the phrase. At the very least it is a religious pagan Arab interpretation of the phrase. In both cases the phrase DOES have literal meaning outside of these two non-Quranic religious contexts. Notice the religous interpretation of al-ayaam al-ma3loomaat that follows the first definition.
Now if we pay attention to what Zujaaj has to say in this citation he says that ma3dood is a count small or large. But he claims that alif, taa has diminutive properties. He cites durayhimaat (which is strange because durayhim is already the diminutive of dirham, and durayhimaat is plural. My guess is that the word is used exclusively in the meaning of a few small dirhams, exactly equalling daraahima qaleelatun). I'm not sure how Hammaamaat is diminutive.
But he then says that the alif ta may also be used for takthir, implying plurality.
On that level I would like to say that the dictionary is saying that ma3doodaat can be few (obviosly coming from it's use as numbered, i.e. limited) as well as plural implying many with no particular count involved.
As far as the female plural being used for plural inanimate objects. I'd like to point out that samawaat is referred to as hunna (2:29, and in Iraqi dialect inaminate plurals can still be reffered to as hin or hun, a leftover from Classical Arabic), ayyaam is refered to as ma3loomaat (2:80 is a singular female use and wouldn't fall under the diminutive possibility used in the above definition) and ma3doodaat on more than a few occasions in the Quran. A more nuetral and very common Quranic example is ayaaatun bayyinaatun (2:99).
With that said I'd like to clarify:
1. In classical Arabic feminine plural can be used to describe plural inanimate objects.
2. Ma3dood, Ma3doodah, Ma3doodaaat (and even possibly ma3doodoona or ma3aadid or ma3aadeed) means numbered or counted primarily and literally. But it can take a diminutive meaning of 'few' through its meaning of numbered or limited. A good English example is 'your days are numbered.'
3. Ma3dood in no way ONLY means few.
4. The limitation of time as it concerns Ramadan and pilgrimage depends on the Quranic implication of shahr, and not the other way around.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 09, 2008, 03:22:28 PM
48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution
:jedi:
Salaam Anthony and everyone,
Indeed!! As I understand from the verse above, there is no undue expectations on the physically impaired and, performing within their capacity will earn them a reward on par with that of the able.
However the argument was: ?how can one witness a month?? so it must, here, imply the scorching moon,
"shahr ramadan".As we learn from verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify.
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him.
b.?
those amongst you who witnessed?? exclude only those who are mentally incapacitated.
These verses also made me realise that the deaf, the dumb and the blind are not excluded from testifying.
How does a deaf or dumb person bear witness?
By the use of eyes and skin, which would include using sign language, as well as employing writing tools. In both cases the skin is used to bear witness. Similarly a deaf person, capable of speaking, may use his sight and his lips/skin .
A blind person can use the skin (to feel with), along with the ears to witness and, regarding the month of Ramadan, a blind person has witnessed it simply by being present in his body, in that month .
This, in my opinion, is conclusive evidence, but I would welcome any input from others.
Quote from: progod on September 09, 2008, 04:06:24 PM
Peace,
1. In classical Arabic feminine plural can be used to describe plural inanimate objects.
2. Ma3dood, Ma3doodah, Ma3doodaaat (and even possibly ma3doodoona or ma3aadid or ma3aadeed) means numbered or counted primarily and literally. But it can take a diminutive meaning of 'few' through its meaning of numbered or limited. A good English example is 'your days are numbered.'
3. Ma3dood in no way ONLY means few.
4. The limitation of time as it concerns Ramadan and pilgrimage depends on the Quranic implication of shahr, and not the other way around.
Godbless,
Anwar
I hope we can now look into a timing device, using the sun and the moon, as a next step forward.
:peace:
Quote from: progod on September 09, 2008, 03:00:05 PM
Peace,
Belal, you used this verse as proof that manzil means any stage. However this word is munzal, and not manzil. Munzal is the verbal noun and place noun for form 4 anzala which is ' to cause to descend.' munzal means either making something descend (inzaal) or a place where something is made to descend (munzal). Manzil is where something descend on it's own.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar
How would you translate verse 10-5:
هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥)
Thanks
Peace everyone,
2:185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it
Which is Ramadan?
Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
Harvest Moon - September
(http://www.earthsky.org/images/13821.jpg)
This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.
Hunter's Moon - October
(http://www.nightskyinfo.com/sky_highlights/hunters_moon/full_moon_small.jpg)
With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.
44:3 ?We descended it in a blessed night
97:1 ?We descended it in night Al-Qadr
97:3 Night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
Better than 1000 full moons or 1000 months?
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 09, 2008, 07:32:50 PM2:185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it
Which is Ramadan?
Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon
Out of all the full-moons that you listed, the solstice moon takes the lowest path accross the horizon and thus has the most vivid reddish color and stays red the longest (thus the name strawberry/rose moon):
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm
There are actually two solstice moons, the one right before the summer solstice and the one right after the summer solstice. So which one is it?
The word "ramadan"/scorching has two connotation: (1) the color red (2) hot. Naturally, the solstice moon after the summer solstice would be the one that best fits those two criteria.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
what if it's cloudy?
Peace rsw,
Quote from: rsw on September 09, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
what if it's cloudy?
Same as if underground or cannot see. None are accountable for circumstances beyond their control.
btw, interesting reading your story in the other thread.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 09, 2008, 08:21:25 PM
Out of all the full-moons that you listed, the solstice moon takes the lowest path accross the horizon and thus has the most vivid reddish color and stays red the longest (thus the name strawberry/rose moon):
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm
There are actually two solstice moons, the one right before the summer solstice and the one right after the summer solstice. So which one is it?
The word "ramadan"/scorching has two connotation: (1) the color red (2) hot. Naturally, the solstice moon after the summer solstice would be the one that best fits those two criteria.
Yes when I first saw the huge moon it freaked me out; thought it was going to crash into earth. :o
Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
June 21 2008 Begins Summer in the Northern Hemisphere
Next full moon occurred 30 days later in day time...
Date Illuminated Phase
Jul 16, 2008 97.8%
Jul 17, 2008
Jul 18, 2008 99.8% Full at 10:59 AMJul 19, 2008 99.7%
Jul 20, 2008 97.4%
How do we witness which night/day is Ramadan?
Also, its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?
97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
Was that ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots witnessed?
Or
Better than a thousand months (i.e. lunar cycles x 1000 = 80.852076 years or lifetime witnessed)?
These Google algorithms are smart.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_en-USUS291&q=lunar+cycles+x+1000&btnG=Search
Peace
Peace Ayman,
To clarify a bit on the first question...
Next full moon occurred 30 days later in day time...
Date Illuminated Phase
Jul 16, 2008 97.8%
Jul 17, 2008
Jul 18, 2008 99.8% Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008 99.7%
Jul 20, 2008 97.4%
How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
(http://s4.tinypic.com/24faadt.jpg)
Learning Things
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5riBjv3MZyU
Peace
Peace all,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 10, 2008, 05:14:17 AM
How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
Some time ago I noticed that the full moon rose after the sun set. I didn'it verify the illumination percentage but my hunch would be that the full moon with the highest percentage of illumination would be the night it rose after the sunset.
adjwi
I just got a ? (2)
Is this the month OF hotness or not?
In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?
iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?
Peace adjwi,
Quote from: adjwi on September 10, 2008, 09:57:23 AM
Some time ago I noticed that the full moon rose after the sun set. I didn'it verify the illumination percentage but my hunch would be that the full moon with the highest percentage of illumination would be the night it rose after the sunset.
adjwi
Use link below and check the full moon for your area after June 21st and notice sometimes they appear in the daytime and varying hours as well.
Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 16, 2008 97.8%
Jul 17, 2008
Jul 18, 2008 99.8% Full at
10:59 AMJul 19, 2008 99.7%
Take a look at the picture I posted earlier and imagine walking outside seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?
The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2472224091_c9637ac4f8.jpg?v=0)
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 10, 2008, 10:32:00 AM
I just got a ? (2)
Is this the month OF hotness or not?
In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?
iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?
We're getting there anthony.
Peace
Salaaman Anthoney,
What??? ???
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 10, 2008, 10:32:00 AM
I just got a ? (2)
Is this the month OF hotness or not?
In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?
iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?
You said you got "a" ?
Then you extended to (2)
And finally asked THREE
:laugh:
Regards,
mmKhan
Quote from: mmkhan on September 10, 2008, 11:46:10 AM
Salaaman Anthoney,
What??? ???
You said you got "a" ?
Then you extended to (2)
And finally asked THREE
:laugh:
Regards,
mmKhan
:laugh:
Belal,
Manaazil like you have in this quote:
Quoteهُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥
Does mean stages. It is the plural of manzil.
But the quote before:
Quoteوَقُل رَّبِّ أَنزِلۡنِى مُنزَلاً۬ مُّبَارَكً۬ا وَأَنتَ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمُنزِلِينَ
Is singular munzal and it means what i said before.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: belalhammad on September 08, 2008, 04:37:03 PM
Peace Frida and All;
Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.
Peace
Salaam Belalhammad
I had time to understand the relevance of 9:1-5 and 81 last night :
Free_Minds:
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving,9:5 tells us that? when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill....?
Hence , 4 months later, when the war was going on as in:
Free_Minds:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
..... : "Do not mobilize in the heat." confirms that fighting was indeed engaged during the hot season.
Applying Ayman?s theory:The hot months in Arabia should stretch from May to August, which means that Ramadan must have occurred sometime in April/May according to the verses above.
So Ramadan was not in the month of extreme heat, if we believe Ayman?s theory that the sacred months follow Ramadan and than apply the evidence from the Qur'an...a contradiction here!!!
As nun de plume wrote earlier, we are getting there. Alhumdullilah, with the combined effort of everyone here, we are getting to the root question Hot/Ramadan or The Month of Ramadan. I would suggest we all do our own verification by looking into.9:1-5 and 81
3:61 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say: "Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God's curse upon the liars." :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 10, 2008, 04:49:00 PM
Salaam Belalhammad
I had time to understand the relevance of 9:1-5 and 81 last night :
Free_Minds:
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving,
9:5 tells us that? when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill....?
Hence , 4 months later, when the war was going on as in:
Free_Minds:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
..... : "Do not mobilize in the heat." confirms that fighting was indeed engaged during the hot season.
Applying Ayman?s theory:
The hot months in Arabia should stretch from May to August, which means that Ramadan must have occurred sometime in April/May according to the verses above.
So Ramadan was not in the month of extreme heat, if we believe Ayman?s theory that the sacred months follow Ramadan and than apply the evidence from the Qur'an...a contradiction here!!!
Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.
:peace:
Peace all,
Quote from: progod on September 08, 2008, 10:04:02 PMAyman said:
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala. Despite that we are not dealing with etymology. I was just trying to help people understand the sense behind this meaning and the possible logic for it. manzil means stage, any stage, descending or ascending. As it refers to the moon it includes all its stages before full moon, at full moon and after full moon.
To give a similar word with a somewhat similar concept going on here: Mawqa3 means location as well. It is from the root waqa3 which is to fall literally, and also means to occurr/happen. Now Mawqa3 is not where someone literally falls (although it can mean this). It arrived at that meaning from an archaic usage of the concept 'to fall'. Old English I think makes similar use of the concept to fall for location. Ex. "The old oak tree wilst fall to thy left upon the road hither" It can still be used in today's language albeit rare. Ex. "If you keep going straight the store your're looking for will fall on your left." No literal falling at all. And we need only go to the word 'befall' to see how the concept of falling is also connected to occurrence and happenings. So I hope everyone can see how the concept of to fall or descend doesn't have to be literal or order-oriented as it concerns the use of manzil. In the end no matter how far the meanings may seem to stray from the original root, if there is no evidence that it is a post-quranic meaning (the most obvious being that it is an interpretational meaning given by a post-quranic figure) then the meaning is what it is. Period.
This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 05:26:01 PM
Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.
:peace:
Salaam
Afridi,
Thank you for this information. So if the hottest months are June, July and August then, as we learn from 9:81, the war was in one of the hot months, after the sacred months; in other words, at least 3 months had passed since Ramadan, according to Ayman's theory.
Now work it out yourself when was Ramadan?
:peace:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 05:26:01 PM
Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.
:peace:
If Rammadan starts in June 25, according to Ayman;
and if Rammdan is the starter of the 4 restricted months;
Then, Verse 9-81 had to be in October.
If you look deeply in verse 9-81, you will note that they were complaining from going to war in Summer Season; as you know going to war in the days of prophet is different than our days. It will involve traveling that might take a month, and it will involve weeks of fighting untill some one would win.
In 9-81, they were complaining about doing all the above in Heat time (summer time). Trust me,if it was september, as you said (how did you calculate) they would have never use that reason, knowning that the next two or three month will be not as hot.
Quote from: farida on September 10, 2008, 06:59:43 PM
Salaam
Afridi,
Thank you for this information. So if the hottest months are June, July and August then, as we learn from 9:81, the war was in one of the hot months, after the sacred months; in other words, at least 3 months had passed since Ramadan, according to Ayman's theory.
Now work it out yourself when was Ramadan?
:peace:
Muharam is the first and Ramadan is the ninth month
salam farida
The Islamic months are named as follows:[3]
Muharram محرّم (or Muḥarram al Ḥaram)
Safar صفر (or Ṣafar al Muzaffar)
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabī' I) ربيع الأول
Rabi' al-thani (or Rabī' al Thānī, or Rabī' al-Akhir) (Rabī' II) ربيع الآخر أو ربيع الثاني
Jumada al-awwal (Jumādā I) جمادى الاولى
Jumada al-thani (or Jumādā al-akhir) (Jumādā II) جمادى الآخر أو جمادى الثاني
Rajab رجب (or Rajab al Murajab)
Sha'aban شعبان (or Sha'abān al Moazam)
Ramadan رمضان (or Ramzān, long form: Ramaḍān al Mubarak)
Shawwal شوّال (or Shawwal al Mukarram)
Dhu al-Qi'dah ذو القعدة
Dhu al-Hijjah ذو الحجة
The three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single forbidden month is Rajab. These months were considered forbidden both within the new Islamic calendar and within the old pagan Meccan calendar, although whether they maintained their "forbidden" status after the conquest of Mecca has been disputed among Islamic scholars.[citation needed]
:peace:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 07:19:17 PM
Muharam is the first and Ramadan is the ninth month
salam farida
The Islamic months are named as follows:[3]
Muharram محرّم (or Muḥarram al Ḥaram)
Safar صفر (or Ṣafar al Muzaffar)
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabī' I) ربيع الأول
Rabi' al-thani (or Rabī' al Thānī, or Rabī' al-Akhir) (Rabī' II) ربيع الآخر أو ربيع الثاني
Jumada al-awwal (Jumādā I) جمادى الاولى
Jumada al-thani (or Jumādā al-akhir) (Jumādā II) جمادى الآخر أو جمادى الثاني
Rajab رجب (or Rajab al Murajab)
Sha'aban شعبان (or Sha'abān al Moazam)
Ramadan رمضان (or Ramzān, long form: Ramaḍān al Mubarak)
Shawwal شوّال (or Shawwal al Mukarram)
Dhu al-Qi'dah ذو القعدة
Dhu al-Hijjah ذو الحجة
The three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single forbidden month is Rajab. These months were considered forbidden both within the new Islamic calendar and within the old pagan Meccan calendar, although whether they maintained their "forbidden" status after the conquest of Mecca has been disputed among Islamic scholars.[citation needed]
:peace:
Salaam Afridi
At the moment we are working on Ayman's theroy and not the forbidden months you stated above. I am trying to ascertain when Ramadan could be, if the fighting took place in hot weather.
Bilalhammd is showing that, if we apply Aymans thery, the forbiden months are not in the hot months as the surah indicates.
I hope this helps
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 10, 2008, 05:47:02 PM
Peace all,
This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
I notice you have been ignoring my posts of late. If, in any way, I have offended you please understand it was not malicious but sometimes, in order to reach a conclusion, one needs to be frank and straightforward.
I would like to thank you for inviting me to take part in this discussion, and let me tell you it has been the most productive ten day of the month of Ramadan for me, and a lot of the credit goes to you for making us find out the truth ourselves.
Best regards
farida
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 10, 2008, 10:32:00 AM
I just got a ? (2)
Is this the month OF hotness or not?
In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?
iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: What are you saying anthonywallace, I cant stop laughing. :laugh:
:laugh:
No it is not he month of hotness
No it is not he moon of redness
:hmm It is the time of fastness :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Salaam all
Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?
Quote from: Samia on September 10, 2008, 07:55:57 PM
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Salaam all
Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?
:nope:
Samia, God would have said that, but instead He confirmed that it was Hot by saying "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
God is given us a hint that it was Summer time.
Do not try to save Ayman Theory using twisted prove
Quote from: farida on September 10, 2008, 07:31:04 PM
Salaam Afridi
At the moment we are working on Ayman's theroy and not the forbidden months you stated above. I am trying to ascertain when Ramadan could be, if the fighting took place in hot weather.
Bilalhammd is showing that, if we apply Aymans thery, the forbiden months are not in the hot months as the surah indicates.
I hope this helps
:peace:
Thsat calendar can help you in Ayman theory
:peace:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 08:18:28 PM
Thsat calendar can help you in Ayman theory
:peace:
Salaam Afridi,
6:71 Say: "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, 'come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to SUBMIT ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;- 3:200O you who believe, be patient and call for patience, and bond together and revere God that you may succeed :peace:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 10, 2008, 08:03:55 PM
Do not try to save Ayman Theory using twisted prove
Salaam belal
Please don't be silly, I am not sharing yours or Ayman's understanding of fasting, let alone when. And please do not turn a discusion into duel camps: the camp of Ayman and the camp of belal or whoever....
Moreover, why shouldn't you consider all possibilities and eliminate them with a strong proof? "God could have said that" does not mean God said the opposite, and He does not "have to say" that. He did not say they were lying, so can you say that they were not lying because God did not say that when He "would have said that"?
Peace Ayman,
What i said is completely true. Idiomatic usage CAN INDEED change the meaning of a word over time. Take for example like you said 'to hit the road.' That condensed into 'to hit it' as in 'to get out/to leave' and from that you can say 'we are going to hit los angeles, san fransisco and San antonio on this trip.' To hit now means 'to travel to.' So orignally this was not hit's meaning. But idiomatic usage gave the word new meaning OVER TIME (key word being OVER TIME). There are plenty of examples of this in all langauges. I'll see if I can dig up some more.
But here is the problem, this is talking etymology and we are not talking etymology here with nzl. I gave some etymological reasons for why the word has meanings that seem to be separate from it's base meaning to descend, but the word is what it is now. It has all of those meanings and there is an etymological reason behind it. Idiomatic usage is the prime suspect. But at this point it is not an idiom but a certified meaning of the word.
Furthermore manAZIL like I stated before is a plural for manzil. Which mean literally place of descent. Madras/madrasah/pl. MaDARIS means place of study, masjid/maSAJID measn place of paying homage, i.e. worship. the form is maf3il/maf3al singular and mafA3IL plural. You don't have to explain Arabic to me. Unless you are trying to teach something in your dialect to me, keep the lessons to yourself please. From our conversations I think I know more about Arabic then you are willing to know.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote
This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
I would also like to point out that the connection between colors and the concept of scorching is a fallacy, and is not true to all cultures. Flames can be reddish, whitish or even bluish. In English we have the phrase to to burn white hot. Because really high fires tend to be more white than red. Alchohol burns blue. I just don't think it is an absolute thing to say because something is red we can connect that with the concept of scorching. Scorched bones and other things in the sun get bleached white. Fir even chars things and turns them black. So i don't buy this basic connection between a reddish moon and the concept of very hot. I've seen red moons in the fall. I think here in the states red moons are mostly associated with fall and fall colors. Just my take, I think it is a fallacious argument. Not to mention that shahr has all kinds of meanings, from month to plain old moon, to crescent moon. hilaal means moon stage and can even mean a full moon. I think I showed along time ago that if we take the Quranic concept of day from sunrise to sunrise using the dictionry meaning of a shahr as 29 islamic days, it equals 30 of the quranic days. Islamic days are from sunset to sunset. So when a day begins at night in the Islamic system the first day has already begun sunrise that same day in the Quranic system. That creates an extra day in the Quranic system whereas in the Islamic system it stays 29 days. If you count out 30 sunrise to sunrise Quranic days you get 29 sunset to sunset islamiic days within them. Everyone can try it. Use Q for Quranic days and I for Islamic days, then count the Q and I's
Q =Quranic day and I = Islamic day Only thinking minds should dare to attempt this.
Begiiiin Counting!
Sunrise(1st) Sunset(1st) Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q
Conclusion 29I = 30Q. In English that is 29 Islamic days equals 30 Quranic days.
I set it up this way because from sunrise (1st) to the first Q is the completion of the first Quranic day so start counting from 1 at the first Q. From Sunset(1st) to the first I is the completion of the first Islamic day. You will see that every Quranic day has a sunset in it and every Islamic day has a sunrise in it. This is all the proof I need to show you that 30 days is also a shahr.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 10, 2008, 05:14:17 AMHow do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
In addition to our brains being programmed to make the solstice moon appear bigger, our brains are programmed to appreciate symmetry. We even associate symmetry with beauty. The full moon will be symmetric. This is how we all know a full moon when we see one. On the other hand, how many of us have actually seen the new-moon? I bet none.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 10, 2008, 07:55:57 PM9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?
I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 9:5 and 9:81 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 9:81 immediately follows 9:5. If one uses the logic that the passages from 9:5 to 9:81 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 9:25-26 happened before 9:81 and so did the event in 9:40. So either way, the idea that the events described in 9:81 immediately followed 9:5 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2:217.
Here are the facts:
1. A chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) during this hot time of the year (9:81).
2. The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".
Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on September 11, 2008, 07:35:40 AMFurthermore manAZIL like I stated before is a plural for manzil. Which mean literally place of descent. Madras/madrasah/pl. MaDARIS means place of study, masjid/maSAJID measn place of paying homage, i.e. worship. the form is maf3il/maf3al singular and mafA3IL plural. You don't have to explain Arabic to me. Unless you are trying to teach something in your dialect to me, keep the lessons to yourself please. From our conversations I think I know more about Arabic then you are willing to know.
As I said, no one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance like you claimed that MaNAZL can be a place of ascending.
As for knowing Arabic, what you know is Classical Arabic, a theoretical idealized language of post-quranic literature that no one ever actually spoke. This is not only my opinion at this stage but this is what gradually the Arabic language research community is beginning to realize.
This is why you are unable to provide the "plain truth" as you claimed here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596565.msg170452#msg170452
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Ayman, stop your manipulating and untruths. You have been spreading these untruths for too long. I don't know a theorized language I know a real one. Go back as far as you can and read anythin and it is all in what you call a theorized language. All of it. Even the Quran is in this so-called theorized language written with every case ending and even pronounced with them. That is proof that your ideas are the theories here, the false theories at that. You suffer from the epidemic Arab mentality of not being able to distinguish the evolution of the Arab language and the Arab people. And you don't even know your own dialect well enough to distinguish it and what it really is. For you it is all a conspiracy. Guess what, no one conspires to evolve languages they just do that. You can only get an audience on an internet forum like free-minds for these crazy ideas. And only ignorant Arabs can put forth or believe these untruths. Educated Arabs know better. Maybe that will set all the other ignorant individuals in motion here but the truth is that your camp is one of untruth and lies. You can only form your opinions by fabricating historical conspiracies and defaming dictionaries. The intelligent laugh at this, the ignorant actually take you serious. I am all for unorthodox, but unintelligent and uneducated . . . NEVER.
So here is your main lie here:
QuoteAs I said, no one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance like you claimed that MaNAZL can be a place of ascending.
I gave you an explanation for why the word came to mean any general stage. It is an etymological explaination and it is admittedly an educated guess. You have always looked at things upside down which is why you come up with these cooky conclusions. Can you explain to me why someone's mawqi3 (remember root word is to fall) can be up in a tower that that they had to ascend to get there? Now if I say that the person's mawqi3 is up in a tower am I claiming that mawqi3 means a place of ascension? HELL NO! Likewise I am not claiming what you are falsely accusing me of. And if you beleve that that is what I think then you have a brain problem.
Now here's the main piont. We have to accept that mawqi3 like manzil has come to mean location and stage despite their (most likely) original meanings of descent and not ascent. Now if we want to guess how manzil and mawqi3 acquired these meanings (location and stage) that are indifferent of ascent or descent then we can go into some eytmological reasonings and probably propose ARCHAIC idiomatic usage of the word that allowed for it to EVOLVE into a totally separate meaning from its (most likely) original root meaing. So stop being foolish Ayman and acting like this upside-down, inside-out logic you use is going to get you anywhere.
You seem to be the only one theorizing on the Arabic language here with your shahr as ONLY full moon (ignoring all of the other meanings) and manaazil as descending phases of the moon. Give me a break! I think it is mighty big of everyone here to even be entertaining these fallacies of yours. All in the name of Free minds. But then you'll probably start talking about my Anwar-months, etc. etc. But the proof is in my previous post. And I don't have to ignore or pidgeon-hole meanings to come to my conclusions.
It's obvious to me that you don't even pay attention when you read the Quran. Just from our last conversation if you would pay attention to all of th spelling conventions used in the Quran that include case endings by using alif, waw and yaa, you would back off of half of these crazy conclusions of yours. You haven't studied language in general, and the Arabic language in particular, or even thought about it enough to propose half of the things you propose here.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace,
I guess another never-ending free-minds battle has been started. I'm sorry I have to speak the truth and denounce untruths. But I'm sorry for the virulent discourse that will follow this, zap my energy and waste my time for the next couple of weeks at the very least.
I'm hoping God shows me the worth of Free-minds some day. Because I only stay on here to help people understand things they don't. But most times people don't want help understanding anything they just want people to accept their ridiculous ideas because they are different, non-conformist, anti-establishment or radical. Woe to the rebellious! God is MOST GREAT!
Godbless,
Anwar
Salaam everyone,
I am writing to bow out of this thread about Hot/Ramadan, as my journey was to find out the truth for myself and I have strong proofs from the Qur?an to believe that;
?Amongst those who witnessed? the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
More importantly the month of Ramadan is not confined to the months of extreme heat.
If we say that 1:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.
Even though ?the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientists and astro researchers? (Sibute ) the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of Ramadan.
Thanks to Nun de plume for this very valid question;
How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
...seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?
Whoever feels a need to eliminate more possibilities, obstructing the truth, it?s their prerogative. I am not going to invest any more of my time in this thread.
?I am out?
Quote from: Samia on September 11, 2008, 03:22:41 AM
Moreover, why shouldn't you consider all possibilities and eliminate them with a strong proof? "God could have said that" does not mean God said the opposite, and He does not "have to say" that. He did not say they were lying, so can you say that they were not lying because God did not say that when He "would have said that"?
Salaam Samia,
Please read the following verses and see if they pertain to your antics.
2:68 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."
2:69 They said: "Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is." He said: "He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it."
2:70 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."
2:71 He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance :hmm
All the best
Quote from: farida on September 11, 2008, 04:23:08 PM
Salaam Samia,
Please read the following verses and see if they pertain to your antics.
2:68 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."
2:69 3:86 How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.
2:70 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."
2:71 He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance
:hmm
All the best
Good verses farida,....
However this discussion is deeper than what I thought, and I will have to take my time to analize these posts further...
I have never really watched the moon phases and differences ect...and got into debth about the particular months the 4 months is ect...
But as of now, starting next year God willing, I will start my fast in august ( for it is the " hottest month. " that I know of, witness, and also feel over hear in Michigan )....unless my Lord guide me and forgive me, then I will surly be of those lost...
Quote from: progod
This is all the proof I need to show you that 30 days is also a shahr.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace
Which month is used to fast based on your understanding of the Qur'an alone and how did you determine this? Thanks.
Peace
Salaam farida
I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.
Quote from: Samia on September 11, 2008, 05:23:27 PM
Salaam farida
I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.
Excellent point. Since the clear, absolute details of fasting have apparently been obscured (if it was easy there won't be all this debate over it) I think this is what I will do as well! What a load off!
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2008, 09:32:54 AM
Peace Samia,
I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 9:5 and 9:81 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 9:81 immediately follows 9:5.
If one uses the logic that the passages from 9:5 to 9:81 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 9:25-26 happened before 9:81 and so did the event in 9:40.
Yousuf Ali:
Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunayn: behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land for all that it is wide, did constrain you and ye turned back in retreat. (9-25)
But Allah did pour His calm on the Mssenger and on the Believers and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers: thus doth He reward those without Faith. (9-26)
Again will Allah after this turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-27)
Ayman; you are twisting the truth; Why cann't you say what you understood when reading the above verses or the following verses?
If ye help not: for Allah did indeed help him; when the unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion: they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion "Have no Fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. (9-40)
Is it hard to say that these verses are reminders for the believers of past events?
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2008, 09:32:54 AM
So either way, the idea that the events described in 9:81 immediately followed 9:5 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2:217.
As we all know Chapter 9 is very unique; it is the only Chapter that the prophet did not start with "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful"
If you read Chapter nine, you cann't miss how its verses are related to each other.
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2008, 09:32:54 AM
Here are the facts:
1. A chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) during this hot time of the year (9:81).
2. The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".
Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Here are the Facts...wow :o Ayman are you a Prophet :hail
Here are the Quranic Facts:
9-81 was in Hot summer days
9-81 was after the Four Restricted months
9-81 is the strongest prove from Quran that Rammadan does not have to be in Summer time.
another fact, from me:
9-81 is the Nail in the coffin that ended your theory .
:yes
Quote from: Samia on September 11, 2008, 05:23:27 PM
Salaam farida
I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.
:hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor :pr
Quote from: afridi220 on September 11, 2008, 06:33:53 PM
:hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor :pr
If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!
Quote from: Samia on September 11, 2008, 06:37:49 PM
If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!
:)
Soof,
According to my understanding:
1. Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.
2. According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.
3. The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.
4. A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.
5. So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.
Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: farida on September 11, 2008, 04:04:17 PM
If we say that 9:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.
Peace Frieds:
You are right; either 9-81 is related or not related to 9-1 to 5, it still shows that summer time was not within the 4 restricted month; simply because the prophet was asking them to fight in Summer time.
Ayman!!!
9-81 is too strong to argue aginest; and if you continue to ignor its proof that The four restricted month were not in summer time, including Rammadan, during chapter 9, then you will look BEAINLESS in front of everybody.
Peace
Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else
Quote from: progod on September 11, 2008, 07:12:42 PM
Soof,
According to my understanding:
1. Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.
2. According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.
3. The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.
4. A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.
5. So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.
Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace
Ok before I ask, I'm not trying to discredit your understanding or put any understanding I have over yours (as I know people can get sensitive about this). Is a month explicitly defined in the Qur'an or is every man woman child over the world supposed to know that a month is 30 qur'anic days from general consensus that is so apparent it doesn't need to be explained? A day is defined in the Qur'an, A night is defined, a year is defined. But the month? hmmm. God made it explicit for these periods of time so why not so for a month? (rhetorical) We all know the Qur'anic time measurement is not the same as the general time measurement (new day starts at 00:00) as you showed with qur'anic days so what is the Qur'anic month?
Peace
Quote from: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 05:26:01 PM
Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.
:peace:
[hide]Mecca Climatological Data
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun J ul Aug Sep Oct Nov
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (108) 47 (117) 42 (108) 42 (108) 42 (108) 41 (106)
Nov Dec Year
41 (106) 34 (93)
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (88) 33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66) 22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (68) 17 (63) 12 (53)
Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2) 61 (2.4)
[edit]
Quote from: afridi220 on September 11, 2008, 08:24:41 PM
[hide]Mecca Climatological Data
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun J ul Aug Sep Oct Nov
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (108) 47 (117) 42 (108) 42 (108) 42 (108) 41 (106)
Nov Dec Year
41 (106) 34 (93)
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (88) 33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66) 22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (68) 17 (63) 12 (53)
Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2) 61 (2.4)
[edit]
Why are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth
:yes
Peace,
As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways:
1. The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.
2. In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.
In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 11, 2008, 09:31:52 PM
Peace,
In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.
Godbless,
Anwar
Good Words. :sun:
And may God lead you and all of us to the Honest Truth.
Peace
Peace to all,
The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year? There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month. The verse simply says "shahru ramadhan".
(1) If "shahr" refers to a "month", then the scriptures refers to an intensely hot month.
(2) If "shahr" refers to a full-moon, then the scripture refers to a specifically hot time period of the full-moon, or perhaps a "scorching hot/red moon".
Either way, given the root of the word "ramadhan", it would have to occur during a hot time period.
Also, even the traditional submitters base their calculator for "shahru ramadhan" on witnessing/sighting the moon. That is what the reading instructs us to do - whoever "sights/witnesses" the moon was to fast the period, according to the scripture. Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon. And regardless, the determination for the "shahr" isn't based on an arbitrary timetable - it's based on witnessing the moon, regardless of if "shahr" means "month" or "full-moon"...
Quote from: rsw on September 11, 2008, 07:23:13 PM
Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else
:hmm Good question. May The God guide all of us to the truth.
Peace,
Ahmad
Quote from: progod on September 11, 2008, 09:31:52 PM
Peace,
As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways:
1. The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.
2. In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.
In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace
OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is? Does it say 60 persons for 2 months? [Where did the definition of a Qur'anic month = 29 days come from?] is my main query, or is it something that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an? If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism. You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance. The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after.
Peace
Peace,
Quote
OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is?
They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.
Quote
Does it say 60 persons for 2 months?
Yes. 58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for t
wo consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed
sixty needy onesHere it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people
5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads:
QuoteAllah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage. But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.
Here are the two verses that lay down the rule: 2:183-2:184
Quote[Where did the definition of a Qur'anic month = 29 days come from?] is my main query, or is it something that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an?
Lisaanul-Arab. I saw it in another dictionary as well. i don't have acceess to it any more. I think it was mu'jamat al-lughaat.
This is a meaning that was once automatically known. In MSA (modern standard Arabic which is the closest thing to Classical Arabic still spoken) a month is known either as an Islamic month, a western one or any number of days around 30 days in general. But we are talking about in the past here. And the Classical dictionaries tell us what people considered a month in the past amongst Classical Arabic speakers. We are speaking of a time period of over 1400 years. For that reason we are referring to dictionaries that tell us how people automatically understood these word 1400 years ago. Hence the Classical Arabic dictionary.
QuoteIf it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism.
I understand your point here. The fact here however is that it was being documented how Arabic was blending and changing and how in certain places it wasn't. We are at the point now (and have been for centuries now) where Arabic has totally blended and evolved everywhere, except in the academic and scholarly field, where they maintained what was once the natural language of all Arabs but is now an archaic Arabic like Elizabethan English is archaic to us. Hence MSA was derived after many official councils on the Arabic language in the 20th century to install an official langauge in the education curriculum and media use based in most part on the now archaic (Classical) Arabic found in the Quran, pre-islamic poems, the hadeeth and other discourse of people after that. This was done to respect the history of Arabic literature and to mitigate some of the many subtle differences and the somtimes stark differences between the blended evolved Arabics (often called dialects, 3aamiyah or darijah) of different regions (these are known as Khaliji (gulf), Maghribi (incluses hassaniyyah and shuba), Misri (includes Sudan and Egypt), Yamani (includes Soqotri and Mehri which are technically different languages than Arabic, Soqotri has more Arabic in it I believe), And Saudi (also a product of mixing because of the inflow of non-Arabic or dialect speaking Muslims from all of the conquered Arabic territories))
That is the history. All Classical Arabic dictionaries were dedicated to reaching the people who still spoke Classical Arabic after the Quran and checking, analyzing and recording their use of the language. Reading the prefaces of Lisan-Al-Arab or lane's lexicon will give you a better picture of how early the works are and the situation of Arabic at the time. These dictionaries are all after the Quran, but Classical Arabic was still being fluently spoken after the Quran. Seeing that there were few educational institutions early on besides Quranic schools, the widely spread rumorous hadeeths prove this point as well. The Hadeeths are pure rumor and all of them are in Classical Arabic, which confirms the language's existence as a commonly spoken language among Arabs and especially bedouin Arabs.
Now to put these dictionaries under skepticism would be equal to putting our dictionaries like webster and oxford's under criticism and saying that they don't apply to works like the constitution or other English works pre-1800. But a good dictionary like Oxford for instance (which is the one we would refer to for archaic Englsh works) dates meanings and quotations, espeically if they come from interpretations of religious or political scholars where the words have been embellished upon and changed from their original meanings.
So I hope you understand that
1. The effort of any dictionary is to record the use of the langauge it has dedicating itself to.
2. If there were reasons to suggest differences in language B as it is spoken as opposed to records of how it was spoken before (Quran reciters, pre-islamic poem reciters being the ones to refer to) they would have been noted, and they were noted.
3. Dictionary writers checked with people who lived during the time of the prophet or shortly after his death as to how they used their language and their words.
4. All this may resemble the hadeeth but there is a major difference between verifying rumors and what people heard about the prophet and history surrounding him and how they spoke to each other and used their everyday words with each other(and being able to recognize if it is the same langaue as the Quran or not).
5. The Bedouins of that day were recorded as still using the same language and language structure as that found in the Quran, pre-islamic poetry and the hadeeths (as an every day house and street language in addition to a literate one for those who knew how to write) up to 300 years after the death of the prophet. After that the blended Arabic of the city areas where different cultures and ethnicities met and lived together (a result of Arab imperialism, Arab importation of foreign slaves as servants, international trade and the attraction of non-Arab Muslms to Arab centers of commerce and learning) began to fully affect bedouin speech as well.
QuoteYou are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance.
I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.
To me alternative agendas are easy to spot, but it is impossible to get people with these agendas to admit it to others, let alone themslves. I understand your sentiment, but it is not the Quran, it is the people.
QuoteThe description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after
These are all your requirments and expectations. Honestly instead of demanding this of the Quran, demand this of your understanding of the book and its issues. That when you come to a conclusion it be as clear, unbiased and as non-convaluted as possible, and agrees with every Quranic verse on the subject and that it be as universal as possible. Remember that the Quran is for those who use their 3aql, not those who refuse to or choose to abuse. Unfortunately since we cannot control how justly and fervently peeople use their 3aql we can't guarantee that they would have understood this at the time of the Quran's revelation or after. That they understand the Quran as best as they can is all I think is required. So if the people at the time of its revelation honestly thought that their Jahillliyah month of Ramadan is what was meant then they did their best. If they realized that just 30 days during their local summer is what was meant then I think they were more correct in that estimation. If they though that the Quran validated their month names but not the way they added months to keep their year solar and that was their most honest assessment then they did their best. SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.
Do you see my points here?
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 12, 2008, 02:07:20 PM
Yes. 58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones
Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people
Salaam Anwar, all
I know you expect me to respond, so I did not want to disappoint you ;D. However, my question is not linguistic, but something that I was thinking of. I mentioned that I opted for the option of feeding the poor, but the verse does not say how many poor people, but mentions (compensation of feeding a poor) 2:184. I personally took it as a collective plural, although it could be just one.
My question: Does it mean fasting is only one day, or this sawm is not even "fasting from food and drink" but something else, or is it a third understanding? What do you think?
Peace everyone,
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 12, 2008, 06:17:38 AM
The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year?
The word July comes from Julius Caesar - it's also the name of a month.
QuoteThere is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month.
They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 12, 2008, 06:17:38 AM
Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon.
Are you sure? Is this a full moon?
(http://i35.tinypic.com/dbntlk.jpg)
On different days you would see a 99.7% full moon.
The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...
(http://fredkleinastro.com/images/MoonAndVenus.JPG)
Peace
Quote from: progod
Peace,
They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.
The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?
Quote from: progodYes. 58:4 However, he who does not have the wherewithal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones
Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people
5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads:
But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage. But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.
Here are the two verses that lay down the rule: 2:183-2:184
Fair enough.
I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.
Quote from: progodI hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.
Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect
Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
39:18
But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all :nope:, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!
So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)
What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.
Peace
[/quote]
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 12, 2008, 06:05:29 PMThey called the months something back then and those names were passed down.
What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 12, 2008, 06:05:29 PMAre you sure? Is this a full moon?
I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 12, 2008, 06:05:29 PMThe new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...
Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?
Peace,
Ayman
updated response to Progod:
Quote from: Soof on September 12, 2008, 06:56:51 PM
The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?
Fair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?
Why is it described here as fast for two consecutive months in this verse yet in the verse regarding ramadhan it says whoever witnesses the month should fast it?
How do you witness a month?
Why do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says
(Fast) a certain number of days; and (for) him who is sick among you, or on a journey, (the same) number of other days; and for those who can afford it there is a ransom: the feeding of a man in need - but whoso doeth good of his own accord, it is better for him: and that ye fast is better for you if ye did but know
2:184
Does this mean the fast is one day according to your logic?
I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.
Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect
Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
39:18
But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all :nope:, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!
So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)
What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.
Peace
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
Peace Nun,
Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?
Peace,
Ayman
This is the year of a dispute, for all I know. I believe you started this dispute this year...Thus I never knew of it to be a dispute...every year as you say...
:peace:
Peace,
i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.
QuoteThe Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?
Ok, I didn't know that was rethorical. As for the story, I'm just giving possiblities for why Islam has done this whole Ramadan thing incorrectly and unquranically (I'm not saying that God won't accept the traditional way from sincere servants). No we don't need this when approaching the Quran, just trying to give possiblities for why it hasn't been so clear too many in the past and what could have gone wrong. Ther are even debatablities on hajj, inheritance (some people say it doesn't add up), divorce, orphans and even marriage. I'm sure we could find those points that some people will not let go and force into unsolvable ambiguities. But you and I understand why that is. The fasting duty is clear it is just that you have come accross camps of people who want to take any hint of an ambiguity and use it to help their agendas. As for this being a worldwide religion I agree. i believe that those instances of the Quran that cannot be seen from a universal point of view are there to serve as universal lessons on how we are to approach or view the issues involved. Again those scenarios were to explain what could have gone wrong during or after the prophet's time that bliinded them to the inherent universal application of these passages. As for knowing what a month is, that is cultural. And it was in the culture and therefore in the language of the pre-islamic Arabs that a month was 29 sunset to sunset days, and analyzing what that translates into when converted into Quranically mandated sunrise to sunrise days we get 30 days, that in addtion to the fact tha the Quran gives us clues on to this meaning. So the Arabs of that time had in their minds many things when they thought shahr and they had a few defintions for what a month could be as well, one of which translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
QuoteFair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?
It is not a punishment but a compensation, an atonement. The fact is that in chapt. 2 with those verse i gave you how to fast Quranically is given to us, as well as how to compensate for our missed fasts. So with that verse we see clearly how 2 months of fasting is being equals to 60 daily fasts.
Hence if 2 months is 60 days, 30 days is a month.
Quotehy do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says
In my opinion because people like to argue about simple things. Shahdia is both to witness and to consciously be in the presence of. There are alot of things I wish God had said in ways that people could not make room for doubt. But this book is for those who use their 3aql. Also the fast is not for the month. The fast is for each day during the month. You are fasting daily for 30 days. You are not fasting for the whole month. I think there will be those cases where people can stand to fast part of the month. And that can be any number of days. Hence the Quran is dealing with each daily fast.
QuoteBut what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all no way, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!
Yes, the Quran explains itself. I think knowledge of the universe also makes the Quran even more clear to us. When we meet people that the Quran describes it makes it all the more clear what the Quran is talking about, even though it was clear before we me those people. It's just we didn't fully grasp the gravity of it. I also think that sometimes hearing others' honest and insightful opinons on the Quran can help us understand what we didn't see before in the book, as long as we come to see the same thing too by honestly analyzing and scrutinizing. Again, clear is only as clear as the human mind that reads it. I've seen people contort clear mandates over and over again. And the Quran says that there will be those who distort it. So even knowing that God will make the book clear to those who approach it corretly, that is, as a whole and taking what is best, in context and consistent with the rest of the book, there will be those who will try to pick and choose and make us doubt if the book is really clear or not. In the end that is up to you and the circle of people you come to trust to conclude on, being honest and sincere with yourselves.
QuoteSo in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)
I can agree to that mostly. As for interpretations from hadeeth. I think there are few examples of this. For instance not even the defintion of Islam in the Hadeeth as the five pillars has found its way into the dictionaries I have used. Shafi's interpretation of the word has, but his saying is cited clearly as his interpretation of the word. So dictionaries are not as guilty of this as they have been made out to be on this forum. That is mainly because hadeeths rarely try to redefine words. The scholars are the ones who, expounding upon a word in the Quran, try to redefine it. Hadeeths are just rumors of what the prophet and his companions did and said. I haven't seen much interpretation of single words in the Hadeeth, which is why they rarely find their way into the dictionaries. Now the hadeeth are used for linguistic reference. So if the hadeeth used the word 'to walk' dictionaries will quote the hadeeths usage of the word to walk if it clearly gives away the correct meaning and usage of the word. But there is nothing wrong with that because the hadeeth is in Classical Arabic as well and can be used as a linguistic reference. The opinions and facts of the hadeeth are what are dubious because of the fact that they are rumor. You wouldn't doubt the grammar of a a rumor, you doubt the message that it is trying to convey.
QuoteWhat do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.
I wote about this earlier. The word can mean counted/numbered and few. Just like the English word 'numbered' can be used in the expression 'your days are numbered' to mean 'you have only few days left to live.' But that doesn't change the meaning of 'numbered'. I explained everyting in lisan al-arabi (if lane's lexicon only says few then it is an incomplete entry, and that is not the end of the world because you have to check more than oen dictionary soemtiemes to get all the meaings. The dictionary is only as good as its compiler). ANd yes the goal is to fast the whole month. That is the implication. Now that might not happen for many reasons and the Quran gives the scenarios. But I think fasting each day for a whole month is the implied message. Because that would leave it too ambiguous and we wouldn't know what to do. So if some says fast during September, he could mean only to fast for a part of it, but if he doesn't specify any part than the whole month is naturally implied. Again, the fast is daily so that is why compensating for the daily fasts during ramadan is dealt with day by day.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
Peace Nun,
What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.
Why you keep hammering us with un-Quranic proofs? Why do you rely on Hadiths and rumers? Have you been advising people to not follow Hadiths and rely on Quran when speaking about religion?
Are the names you posted came from stories and hadiths or from Quran?
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.
:brickwall: Again...No Quranic proof
A Warrning to you From Your Lord:
وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُجَـٰدِلُ فِى ٱللَّهِ بِغَيۡرِ عِلۡمٍ۬ وَلَا هُدً۬ى وَلَا كِتَـٰبٍ۬ مُّنِيرٍ۬ (٨) ثَانِىَ عِطۡفِهِۦ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِۖ لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلدُّنۡيَا خِزۡىٌ۬ۖ وَنُذِيقُهُ ۥ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ عَذَابَ ٱلۡحَرِيقِ (٩) ذَٲلِكَ بِمَا قَدَّمَتۡ يَدَاكَ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَيۡسَ بِظَلَّـٰمٍ۬ لِّلۡعَبِيدِ (١٠)
And among men is he who disputes about All?h, without knowledge or guidance, or a Book giving light (from All?h), (22-8)
Bending his neck in prid, and leading (others) too astray from the Path of All?h. For him there is disgrace in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection We shall make him taste the torment of burning (Fire). (9)
That is because of what your hands have sent forth, and verily, All?h is not unjust to (His) slaves. (22-10)
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?
Peace,
Ayman
Happy Ramadan
If you want to sight the Moon yourself, please Feel Free, it is Fun:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php
Or will you reject technology as Mulas Do :rotfl:
Peace everyone,
I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view:
- The traditional timing:
We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:
1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:
It assumes that the word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus that the god could have said ?bla bla bla?, as long as it came after the month named Shaaban, which brings us to the next point.
2. The traditional timing is 100% arbitrary:
In reality, the only thing that the sectarian Ramadan is based on is when Shaaban occurred and this in turns depends on when Rajab occurred and so on.
So if one follows this back, one can see that in fact Ramadan is dependent on when the new era was made to start. Many people mistakenly believe that Islamic Calendar starts with the alleged date of migration of the prophet. However, even this arbitrary start is false since Muharram was selected as the start of the era and not the supposed date of migration of the prophet.
It is an indisputable fact that had the new era been made to start according to a different marker such as the date of first revelation or the date of birth of the prophet or the date of the final victory of the prophet, etc. then people here who happily embrace the traditional timing would have been fasting in an entirely different month. So for example, had the beginning of the new era been set to 3 years earlier then they would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month earlier. In addition to the beginning of the era, the order of the months in this new era is completely arbitrary. So what sectarians are doing right now is essentially fasting a completely random month and this is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute.
3. The traditional timing ignores the fact that the year is certainly solar in the great reading:
According to 17:12, daylight and night are used to determine the number of years. Since day and night are a function of the sun and not the moon, then the year is certainly solar or luni-solar.
4. The traditional timing violates 9:36:
By assuming that the word ?shahr? means a lunar month and given the fact that the year is solar as shown in (3), the traditionalists actually count 12.3 months in a year and not exactly twelve.
5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1
On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.
6. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184
Traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the abstinence is for a month while 2:184 is clearly saying ?a few days?. Some try to make up excuses by making up a new meaning for ?ma3doodat? as ?any number?. So now they create another problem by implying that the god is giving superfluous useless information. This false understanding also creates another problem further down in 2:185 when the passage mentions ?completing the count?. If the count is already known as ?30 days? or ?29 days? then both ?any number? and ?completing the count? become useless and unnecessary information.
These are just 6 problems with the traditional understanding and I am sure that there are more but I already wasted enough time stating what should be obvious to everyone but unfortunately isn?t as evident by all the confusion. So let me move to the next point of view on timing:
- The timing according to Anwar (ProGod):
Basically, Anwar acknowledges the meaning of ?ramadan? so this way, at least initially, he avoids issues (1), (2) and (3) in the traditional timing. However, his theory still suffers from the following problems and he later reintroduces issues (1), (2) and (3) as we will see below:
1. Anwar?s timing violates 9:36:
He invents an imagined meaning for ?shahr? as a 30 day month when it is an indisputable reality that no lunar or even solar calendar has constant 30 day months. So he actually counts 12.17 of his imaginary months in a year and not exactly 12.
The closest calendar to what Anwar is proposing is the ancient Egyptian calendar, which had twelve 30 day months and a thirteenth month that lasted only 5 days. This 5 day month was a national holiday that they conducted festivals on.
Unlike ancient Egyptians, Anwar is completely silent on what he is doing with the extra five days. I am really surprised given how several here are jumping to make up non-existent issues to criticize the timing that I proposed that no one has pointed his attention to this glaring issue of the missing five days. It probably has to do with people unconsciously focusing on the point of view that has more merit and is thus more threatening to their status quo. At any rate, back to Anwar?s five vanishing days. If he ignores them as he seems to be doing then his calendar will very quickly be out of sync with the seasons and thus he has unknowingly reintroduced traditional problems (1), (2) and (3) into his theory.
Anwar?s view is one that I am particularly familiar with because at one point perhaps five years ago or so I used to have the same exact view about the timing and the ?30 day? fixed month. Fortunately, I was able to progress with the god?s guidance beyond that understanding.
2. Anwar?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1
Anwar claims that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in ?30 days? while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. So like traditionalists, this false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.
3. Anwar?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184
This is the same exact traditional problem (6) discussed above in the Traditional Timing section.
- The timing according to Layth:
At one point Layth was embracing the same understanding that I had except that he had the scorching full-moon ending the restricted full-moons instead of beginning them. Now, in his latest article about the so-called Night of the Decree, he has presented a new understanding. The underlying premise of Layth?s understanding is his interpretation of 19:25.
He bases his entire thesis on when the palm trees mature. However, even if we assume that this is the correct interpretation then the harvest season when the palm trees mature varies greatly. There are hundreds of varieties of palm trees (there is over 100 varieties in Iraq alone). They mature at different times and are harvested at different times ranging from June through end of October. So the timing is uncertain. Add this to the fact that the time of the pregnancy is also somewhat variable and we have the interaction of two uncertain variables.
There is also another major problem. When one sees a palm tree with fully ripened dates, you can often see some ripened dates which had fell by themselves to the ground. However, if you have seen a mature palm tree up close and you actually tried to shake it, you would very quickly realize that this is not an easy matter like shaking a twig. Their trunks are not easy to shake even for a fully able strong man, let alone a woman in labor! Why do you think we see people climbing up palm trees to get the fully ripened dates during the harvest season instead of seeing everyone simply hugging a palm tree and shaking it? So how things happened in 19:25 could be very different from what is normal and would more likely involve some divine intervention to cause it to happen. So the entire episode of pregnancy, labor and dates falling down from the palm tree could very well involve some divine intervention and thus be different from what would normally happen.
In addition, Lyth?s timing suffers from the following problems:
1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:
Like traditionalists, Layth assumes that the key word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus its meaning has nothing to do with his timing.
2. Layth?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1
Layth goes back to the meaning of ?shahr? as ?month? so this again creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1
As for any other issues, I am not really sure since Layth ends the article with the following statement:
?This night is not only a blessed night in itself, but it also would bless the period around it explaining why the fast has been commanded to occur in the month of Ramadhan in which the Night of Decree is contained?
He doesn?t tell us when this supposed ?month of Ramadhan? starts or ends. So the reader is left with no information whatsoever on when it starts or ends or how long the abstinence is for. Given this deliberate vagueness then Layth is probably aware of those issues and couldn?t address them at that time. I am hopeful that he can address them in the future.
- The timing according to Ayman, Marie, Zenje, and many others who contributed to this present understanding:
First of all I would like to say that all good comes from the god and I don?t deserve any credit except for mistakes. In fact, one of the ideas that led to this understanding came at a time over four years ago when I was holding the same view as Anwar and I was debating with a Sunni on another forum that the month is 30 days. The Sunni fellow kindly pointed to me that one of the meanings of ?shahr? is moon and the moon cycle is not 30 days. I checked Lisan Al-Arab and indeed the meaning of ?full-moon? was right there. This led to shifting my mindset from thinking about ?shahr? in terms of the vague term ?month? and manmade calendars to god-given natural cosmic phenomenon.
Of course, this timing mechanism doesn?t suffer from any of the above problems. It naturally solves the problem of when the night of measure is without making any extra effort or speculating about uncertain factors. It is the only understanding that doesn?t violate 9:36 and in fact based on 9:36 simply and elegantly maintains the timing of the restriction in sync with the seasons.
I hope this helps everyone.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.
Any evidence the word Ramadan is used in pre-quranic inscriptions, writings etc., as red hot?
If you have information to substantiate your theory then lets see it.
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/24jun_moonillusion.htm
Editor's Note: If you miss the moon illusion on June 24th, try again on June 25th or 26th -- two nights with nearly-full moons. Or wait until July 23rd when the second full moon of summer arrives.Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?
It is 2008 and we have precise tools; thousand years ago they did not.
http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php
Why do all lunar calendars start with new moon waxing crescent and end with waning crescent and not full moon to full moon?
Peace
Quote from: progod on September 12, 2008, 02:07:20 PM
SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.
Yes, I like this statement :)
Regards
Ramzi
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 01:25:53 AMAny evidence the word Ramadan is used in pre-quranic inscriptions, writings etc., as red hot?
If you have information to substantiate your theory then lets see it.
There are many words in the great reading not used in pre-quranic inscriptions. So using your logic you might as well reject all of them.
As for the names of months, it is perfectly normal that we have these since many inscriptions end with the author writing "this was written on such date in the month of x in the year x". NONE of those months is named Ramadan. More importantly, the common meaning of the common noun "ramadan" fits in 2:185 so the great reading confirms the meaning. On the other hand, you have ZERO evidence for the traditional timing from the great reading.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 01:25:53 AMhttp://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/24jun_moonillusion.htm
Editor's Note: If you miss the moon illusion on June 24th, try again on June 25th or 26th -- two nights with nearly-full moons. Or wait until July 23rd when the second full moon of summer arrives.
The nearly full moons on the 25th and 26th were not as symmetric as the 24th one. Also, they will not take a path as low on the horizon as the one on the 24th and thus will not appear as vividly red as that one. So unlike the new-moon there is more than one factor and they all converge at the right time.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 01:25:53 AMIt is 2008 and we have precise tools; thousand years ago they did not.
http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php
The god's commands apply equally a thousand years ago as now. You never saw the new moon and you will probably never see it in your life. So you are arguing about something that you never witnessed and never will. On the other hand, everyone can easily witness the scorching full moon and I have witnessed it every year with my family since 2005.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 01:25:53 AMWhy do all lunar calendars start with new moon waxing crescent and end with waning crescent and not full moon to full moon?
All calendars are manmade. The god doesn't give us calendars or prohibit us from using any calendar. He gives us clear cosmic phenomenon for the purpose of timing the fast and the restriction on hunting wild life. Thus, the people of the book timed the major festivals according to the full moon. This further points to the full-moon being the original marker as confirmed in the great reading.
As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: progod on September 12, 2008, 10:58:22 PM
Peace,
i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.
Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days
>> two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture:
shahr: full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs): one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu: who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.
QuoteSalaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days
>> two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture:
shahr: full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs): one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu: who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.
This is not conjecture if we make up for a daily fast by feeding 1 person then making up for two months of fasting by feeding 60 people is making it obvious that 2 months = 60 days. Hence . . .
Shahr can mean full moon, but i don't think it means that in the Quranic contexts of fasting. Fating any month, like I said is fasting each day within it. That is why expiation for fasting is done on a daily basis. I don't expect you to want to understand me, if think about it. Read thos scriptures more carefully and see what is being said. The month here is any month during summer. I would disagree as to whether you conjecture is better than my conclusion. However, I have never known you to be very sensible on any issue when it comes to these kinds of discussions. So believe what you will. May God guide us all. For those who see my point, thank you for studying the issue honestly. This is not an issue of making up things. It is an issue of trying to pull what is most logical out of the Quranic verses and put it into practice. I am not conjecture here I am concluding on facts. Those facts are:
1. To fast, Quranically, for a month is to fast each day during that month. That explains why expiation for missed fasts is dealt with on a day by day basis. Technically you are not fasting all of Ramadan because you are fasting the nights. So whereas you can say you are fasting Ramadan as a generality or a stereotype and not be incorrect, the specifics of the matter is that you are only fasting daily, and specifically during the daylight hours of Ramadan. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
2. This Quranic usage and its equating 2 months of fasting with 60 daily fasts shows very clearly what the Quran thinks of the word shahr (It's a 30 day period).
3. The word shahr has many different meanings, but the above shows that in the matter of fasting a 30 day period is what is preferred. The Quran's usage of the word shahr seems to be more conducive to a 30 day period than any moon phase. Remember that shahr can mean crescent moon as well. and in that case we can go back to the Islamic method of counting from crescent moon to crescent moon. As I said from the above i think the Quran prefers 30 days for a shahr. That is my conclusion. I think that is pretty simple and don't see how I can be accused of conjecturing here..
4. I am not an anti-traditionalists nor a pro-traditionalists. But I do beileve in logic, evidence and sound analysis of issues. I don't think it's necessary to go left field with my analysis unless there is no other way to make something in the Quran make sense, and stay consistent. I think the interpreting full moon here creates too many inconsitencies, Quranically and logically. But Ayman, Samia and anyone else are entitled to their opinions I just hope we all try to keep it logical, simple and consistent.
I think I've made my pints clear in this topic, see them if you will or dismiss them if you will. The honesty and integrity of your reasons and intentions that lead you to your conclusions is what God will judge you by.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2008, 10:56:09 AM
As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.
Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?
I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...
Quote5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1
On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.
How is that a contradiction?
Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?
Its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?
97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ?Jul 2, 2004 Full at 2:09 PM
Jun 22, 2005 Full at 7:14 AM
Jul 11, 2006 Full at 6:02 AM
Jun 30, 2007 Full at 4:49 PM
Jul 18, 2008 Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 12:22 PM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 2:31 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 9:40 AM
Peace Nun de plume
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 10, 2008, 11:41:31 AM
Peace adjwi,
Use link below and check the full moon for your area after June 21st and notice sometimes they appear in the daytime and varying hours as well.
Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 16, 2008 97.8%
Jul 17, 2008
Jul 18, 2008 99.8% Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008 99.7%
Take a look at the picture I posted earlier and imagine walking outside seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?
The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2472224091_c9637ac4f8.jpg?v=0)
We're getting there anthony.
Peace
I appreciate your answer and the difficulty you present. Now, my understanding is that a ''Full Moon'' lasts an instant, then it is enters its phase of less illumination. Now if the question is how can you differ from a ''Full Moon'' and one that is becoming or one that was simply by looking, I agree it is indeed difficult. My answer was to look at it's rising and compare that time to that of the setting sun. Upon re-examining anew the schedule calculated for my location, I noticed that the occurance of the ''Full Moon'' (UT) seems to co-incide with a rising ''Full Moon'' simultaneously to that of the setting sun.
The day of the ''Full Moon'' is one of no darkness sort to speak. After the sun set, the moon rises before the darkness gains all of the sky. Afterwards, the next day and so on darkness seems to take hold up to the time when the moon rises. So to know when is the full moon, one is to watch the movie and not simply look at a picture.
The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?
adjwi
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2008, 11:33:10 PM
Peace everyone,
I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view:
- The traditional timing:
We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:
Peace all;
My answers to Aymans propaganda is here, http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597103.0, if you are interested to know about his misleading allegations; (this thread is getting to be so confusing)
Ayman, I'm Looking forward for a True debate with you so we can show the truth.
Salam
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 12:00:41 PMWhy do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?
I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...
If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 12:00:41 PMHow is that a contradiction?
Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?
It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 12:00:41 PMIts clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?
97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...
Please see the etymology of the word "ShaHR" and see how the ancient Arabs used the term and its derivatives. In addition to full-moon, it also means something apparent, something bright, something big and round. Do you think that the ancient Arabs thought about the invisible full-moon that has not risen yet from below the horizon as the "ShaHR"?
Also, please look back on this thread and read sister Marie's excellent commentary on 97:3.
I would suggest that you try for yourself next year to witness the scorching full-moon. It is not just about percent illumination. It is about the full-moon taking the lowest path accross the horizon when it rises and thus appearing more red than the next day's full-moon. Therefore, this year in Mecca one had a choice between the full-moon on the 17th and the one on the 18th. However, if you observed the actual full-moon in Mecca you would see that the one on the 17th takes a lower path accross the horizon and rises more slowly to a maximum altitude of 43 degrees while the one on the 18th rises faster to an altitude of 46.6 degrees. So the one on the 17th in addition to being full would also appear more vivid red than the one on the 18th. Moreover, EVERYONE would have seen it and not had to rely on their Mullah or a computer to tell them when the timing is while they never actually witness it their entire lives. The idea is to start the fast the next day after one witnesses the "scorching full-moon". So observing the scorching full-moon in Mecca on the night of July 17th, you would start the fast on July 18th. This is true for all of the northern hemisphere. So whether in the US or in Europe you would have still fasted starting on the 18th. There is no doubt or confusion about that.
The calculations for Mecca below are from the following site:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
MECCA
E 40 00, N22 00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 17, 2008
Zone: 3h East of Greenwich
h m Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
18:50 1.7 118.1 1.00
19:00 3.6 119.0 1.00
19:10 5.5 120.0 1.00
19:20 7.4 121.1 1.00
19:30 9.3 122.1 1.00
19:40 11.2 123.3 1.00
19:50 13.0 124.4 1.00
20:00 14.9 125.7 1.00
20:10 16.7 127.0 1.00
20:20 18.5 128.3 1.00
20:30 20.2 129.7 1.00
20:40 22.0 131.2 1.00
20:50 23.6 132.7 1.00
21:00 25.3 134.3 1.00
21:10 26.9 136.0 1.00
21:20 28.4 137.8 1.00
21:30 29.9 139.7 1.00
21:40 31.4 141.6 1.00
21:50 32.8 143.7 1.00
22:00 34.1 145.8 1.00
22:10 35.3 148.0 1.00
22:20 36.5 150.3 1.00
22:30 37.6 152.8 1.00
22:40 38.6 155.3 1.00
22:50 39.5 157.9 1.00
23:00 40.4 160.6 1.00
23:10 41.1 163.4 1.00
23:20 41.7 166.2 1.00
23:30 42.2 169.1 1.00
23:40 42.6 172.1 1.00
23:50 42.9 175.1 1.00
00:00 43.0 178.1 1.00
00:10 43.0 181.2 1.00
00:20 43.0 184.2 1.00
MECCA
E 40 00, N22 00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 18, 2008
Zone: 3h East of Greenwich
h m Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 1.3 114.3 1.00
19:40 3.2 115.2 1.00
19:50 5.1 116.2 1.00
20:00 7.1 117.2 1.00
20:10 9.1 118.2 1.00
20:20 11.1 119.3 1.00
20:30 13.0 120.4 1.00
20:40 14.9 121.6 1.00
20:50 16.9 122.9 1.00
21:00 18.7 124.2 1.00
21:10 20.6 125.5 1.00
21:20 22.4 127.0 1.00
21:30 24.2 128.5 1.00
21:40 26.0 130.0 1.00
21:50 27.7 131.7 1.00
22:00 29.4 133.4 1.00
22:10 31.0 135.2 1.00
22:20 32.6 137.2 1.00
22:30 34.2 139.2 1.00
22:40 35.6 141.3 1.00
22:50 37.0 143.5 1.00
23:00 38.4 145.9 1.00
23:10 39.6 148.3 1.00
23:20 40.8 150.9 1.00
23:30 41.9 153.6 1.00
23:40 42.8 156.3 1.00
23:50 43.7 159.2 1.00
00:00 44.5 162.2 1.00
00:10 45.2 165.3 1.00
00:20 45.7 168.5 1.00
00:30 46.1 171.7 1.00
00:40 46.4 175.0 1.00
00:50 46.6 178.3 1.00
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Adjwi,
Quote from: adjwi on September 13, 2008, 04:35:03 PMThe point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?
Those questions have been answered several times on this thread. The fact that the restricted full-moons only purpose is wild life hunting restriction and wild life follows the solar cycle tells us that the period of the restriction must be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Everything has a purpose. The idea that everyone has to fast together to achieve "unity" is false as evident in the highly disunited and self-destructing so-called Islamic world today.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace aymen, and all
There is only one place to worship God at...
He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...
So now let us ask this, traditional or not:
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2:183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?
:peace: 8)
Peace Anthony,
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 13, 2008, 09:28:19 PMThere is only one place to worship God at...
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 13, 2008, 09:28:19 PMHe sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...
Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 13, 2008, 09:28:19 PMSo now let us ask this, traditional or not:
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2:183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?
No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2008, 09:38:08 PM
Peace Anthony,
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
Do you face a Sacred Temple :brickwall: "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
He chooses to worshiped at the Sacred Temple. And He is owed by the people to make pilgramage to it, :P and whoever rejects, then God is Rich, the Praiseworthy...
And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go... :P
were are the sacrafices slatered at? were is the pilgramage to? What is the focal point? Towards the Temple... ;D
Do not sacrafise goat demons in just any field ect...There is only one place to do this at and to make pilgramage to...
And my Lords hands are wide open, spending as He pleases...I didnt say He was an idol stored in a black stone box...My Lord will destroy every idol...
And my focal point is that direction, towards the Sacred Temple :P
Yes I do. :P
Hi,
Plume wrote
QuoteWhat contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...
Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as :
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting. thx.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2008, 08:59:15 PM
If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?
I'm still working on it.
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2008, 08:59:15 PM
It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?
God gave us intelligence and we know days/nights = months = years.
46:15 And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship and she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty (30) months, till when he attains full strength and reaches forty years...
Quote from: Sibute on September 14, 2008, 04:58:23 AM
Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as :
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.
thx.
Hi Sibute --
I go by Quran definition of night not seaman (I was one at age 16 btw) how dark is the night.
20:130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before
the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.
See thread...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596792.msg177611#msg177611
Thanks
Hi Plume,
20:130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give .
Thank you for this wonderful quote plume but my point is night is not equal to sunrise - sunset but from the quote above it it clearly distincts between rising, setting and the hours of the night.
All scientific discoveries will relate back to the quran whether it be a seamen,scientist or anyone who seeks knowledge of this universe.
i can see that you are well verse with quotes from the quran and thats good but one should also refelect on how people with knowledge should also be sought after when it conforms with what quran is telling us.
Thank you.
Hi Sibute,
You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.
91:1-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2qun98y.jpg)
Peace
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2008, 09:38:08 PM
Peace Anthony,
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
Let me ask you in other words:Has it been announed that it is time to fast? :wow
Did you witness the month/moon ( of " Ramadan) ? :o yes, I believe you surely did. :P
And are they fasting in Meccah? ( celebrating Ramadan fast ) ? :P
QuoteHi Sibute,
You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.
91:1-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);
Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??
thank you.
WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color)
http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/ (http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/)
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm)
Godbless,
Anwar
I'll see if i can find some more articles, from more scientific sources.
Quote from: Sibute on September 14, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??
thank you.
If the sun is concealed below the horizon then its direct light cannot beam the observer and I break my fast.
Likewise when it is unconcealed at dawn and its white thread is beaming at the observer I start my fast.
Thank you.
Quote from: progod on September 14, 2008, 12:24:01 PMWHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color)
http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/ (http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/)
Quote from above:
When the moon is near the horizon, the moonlight must pass through much more atmosphere than when the moon is directly overhead. By the time the moonlight reaches your eyes, the blue, green, and purple pieces of visible light have been scattered away by air molecules. That's why you only see yellow, orange, or red.It is a scientific fact that the full-moon around the summer solstice takes the lowest path accross the horizon. This is why it appears more vivid red than any other full-moon. This fact was explained in my article and people can easily confirm it.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 13, 2008, 09:53:06 PM
And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go...
Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?
Peace,
Ahmad
Ok plume i cant argue with that when u decide when u want to break your fast and call it a night as long as its conceal.
thank you.
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 14, 2008, 01:29:45 PM
Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?
Peace,
Ahmad
Were is the House of God at? The place of Abraham??? I thought it wa s mecca...
Peace be upon all,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply. As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 34:12: "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..." If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see. If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse? ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know. However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!
The next points that I would like to share with everyone is what I also see as contradictions involving the meaning 'month' for shahr in the reading. These points are also what really convinces me that 'full moon' is the correct meaning.
The 4 verses in question are 2:184, 2:228, 9:2 and 9:37. In 2:184, I believe that the word shaheda lends a lot of weight that shahr means full moon which is something that can be witnessed/ seen. Samia, I also checked about the usage of shaheda in the book and I agree that in this verse it has to do with witnessing/ seeing something 'physically'. It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it.
In 2:228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 65:4, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2:228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'.
In 9:2, the god tells those who ascribe partners with Him that they can go through the earth 4 ashhur. When I was a sunni following the lunar calendar as they do, they teach that the '4 forbidden months' are Thul Qa'dah, Thul Hijjah, Muharram, 11th, 12th and 1st month respectively and then Rajab the 9th month. When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 9:5, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum? Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time. The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?
Regarding verse 9:37, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow. The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime. Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply. I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.
Umm Tariq
2:185 The Quran was sent down in the red moon, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge . So one should fast the entire moon, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever is ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship ; and so that you may complete the term , and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
8)
Salam everyone:
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PM
As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.
If You follow the Quran, you will be calculating each Month period using the Moon Cycle. But if you try to use Ayman way, which is not the Quran way, you will be confused.
The Moon Cycle is from the Waxing Crescent stages to the Next Waxing Crescent stage, which is EQUAL IN NUMBER of DAYS TO:
1- Full Moon Stage to the next Full Moon Stage;
2- from Wening Crescent to the next Wening Crescent
Now why are you so confused like Ayman in number of days per Moon Month?
The Number of Days will be the same if you were Honest when calculating; but Ayman is trying to Cheat Allah in Fasting by discounting the Month Days to 10 days.
:)
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PM
Peace be upon all,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.
28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.
How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum? Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time. The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?
These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply. I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.
Umm Tariq
Salaam Umm Tariq
As you may have read I bowed out of this debate about hot Ramadan because I am 100% convinced that the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of fasting.
However you have raised some very interesting questions and I too have been thinking on those points so I am going to put here my understanding. It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.
2:184. (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; ...Please note that here the name of the month of Ramadan is not mentioned.
Please note that in this verse word Ramadan is mentioned and that this is the time of the great event when the Qur?an was sent down as
guidance for mankind.This was the great event for the whole mankind, it was hot in northern hemisphere and cold in the southern hemisphere that is when the night of degree originated. It happened therefore that this single event fell in different seasons in different parts of the world. We cannot make it a seasonal event related to Arabia only as that would mean the event should take place again and again and again for rest of the world. No it was one time for the whole world and if we make it a summer event, expecting everyone to celebrate it only in the summer, it becomes a local event not a universal one.
We sent it down during a Blessed NIGHT: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time: 2:189
However it's possible that the puzzle could be solved if we reflect on how Ayman concludes his article: http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htmby .....?
Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 29:14 where both are used.? Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue: if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long : 29:14
Could the term "sana(t)" be based on the summer solstice calculation as in Ayman;s formula? ???
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PM
Regarding verse 9:37, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow.
Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
Cont:Now in the next few verses we see the moon and the sun used together to know the count of years, in other words luni-solar years and ?Sana(t)? is used for year and it?s referring to seasonal events seeking bounty harvest etc and also for the computation of the year
10:5 , 17:12, seeking bounty ie harvest.
12:47 He said: "You will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
For planting here sana(t) is used
12:48 Then there will come seven after that which are severe and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored."
Here neither 3am nor sana(t)"is used, just seven. Could the ? seven? here mean the combination of both ???
12:49 Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again
Now for a year 3am is used and here its not about harvesting or sacred months but the whole year ie 3am.
From the above observations I understand that "sana(t)" is used when referring to seasonal events ie harvest or restricted months and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon so in this type of calculations the summer solstice may be used As restricted/sacred month was observed by the pagans too. I wonder if sana(t) is the year which was used when it was divided into four/six season were used in a year prior to Islam.
And 3am is the years which take into account of seasonal as well as fixed term and making the total number of months 12.
To get the desired result one could adjust sana(t) into 3am so that it adds up to twelve months.Now the mind-blowing thing is to work out how to arrive at 12 as the number of months using both calculations to get the resulting year ? 3am?. But how do we use both counts for seasonal events like sacred month and fix term count which marks the event like a Blessed NIGHT linked to fasting to arrive at 12 monhts .
If we study the verse 9:36. we see 3am or sana(t)" is not use just twelve months and we assume its same way of counting months that we arrive at twelve to make 3am or is it combination of two ???
I believe The verse 9:37 is not about sacred months; that's just what the translator assumed. I believe its simply talking of postponement or delay of additional months and, if we use Ayman?s summer solstice count then count up to twelve full moons and disregard the 13th. This may amount to disbelief as the year thus becomes un-Quranic so, yes we may include his calculation but only for seasonal events.
Lets reflect on:
kamilayni 2:233 The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole YEARS, if the father desires to complete the term
31:14 AAamayni -- mother bear him, and in YEARS twain was his weaning:
sineena AAadadan 18:11 Then We draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of YEARS, in the Cave, (so that they heard not):
Amadan -18:12 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!
Sineena 18:25 So they stayed in their Cave three hundred YEARS, and (some) add nine (more)
Again, as I always say, there is such brain pool here; if only we could use it to benefit our deen and just prick a little pin into our inflated egos.
:peace:
Peace,
Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)If I sa a moon in constant heat/scorching, why would that automatically mean an orange moon? Do we have any other uses orangish or yellowing colors being refered to as ramadan in Older Arabic sources? When thes sun rises red/orange we don't have any reference to it being hotter. Do we say that the horizon is hot or on fire before sunrise or after sunset? I see you combining the word Ramadan with the English use of blaze or blazen. But whereas blaze is used from tempers, to lively colors, to fire, to heat, can Ramid be used in this way? I will be double checking as well. Also how could we fast during this constantly blazing moon if we are commanded to fast during daylight hours, and not at night?
Godbless,
Anwar
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 14, 2008, 09:49:38 PM
Peace,
Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)
Peace Progod:
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan:
حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬اۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)
Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).
:peace:
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on September 14, 2008, 09:49:38 PMAyman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)If I sa a moon in constant heat/scorching, why would that automatically mean an orange moon? Do we have any other uses orangish or yellowing colors being refered to as ramadan in Older Arabic sources? When thes sun rises red/orange we don't have any reference to it being hotter. Do we say that the horizon is hot or on fire before sunrise or after sunset? I see you combining the word Ramadan with the English use of blaze or blazen. But whereas blaze is used from tempers, to lively colors, to fire, to heat, can Ramid be used in this way?
I think that the word "scorching/ramadan" seems to be kind of like "red hot" in English. Thus, we hear in the Classical Arabic dictionaries the word used to describe what is commonly known as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English:
فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ،
تَشَكَّتْ عَيْنَيْها حتى كادتْ تَرْمَضُ،
Clearly, the above is a reference to the color and how the eye appears and not literally to the eye being blazing or buring or hot.
The same concept is used in relation to a woman whose thighs are rubbed:
والرَّمِضةُ: المرأةُ التي تَحُكُّ فَخِذُها فَخِذَها الأُخْرَى
Clearly, here it is again about the woman's thighs appearing red from the rubbing.
Quote from: progod on September 14, 2008, 09:49:38 PMI will be double checking as well.
Thank you. The more checking the better.
Quote from: progod on September 14, 2008, 09:49:38 PMAlso how could we fast during this constantly blazing moon if we are commanded to fast during daylight hours, and not at night?
Exactly, we are told afterwards to fast during daylight hours and the length of the fast (complete count of a few days). So the initial information about "shahr ramadan" is simply the marker and not a command to fast an entire lunar month (30 or 29 days and nights), otherwise the info about when and how many days to fast would be redundant or contradicting this command.
As a side note, there is also additional info in Classical Arabic dictionaries that link "ramadan" specifically to hunting. This is significant given the fact that the restricted period is about hunting:
والتَّرَمُّضُ: صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته.
وترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ: رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه.
This inhumane way of hunting would have a significant negative impact on the preservation of wild life and would very quickly decimate it. Apparently, the Arabs were using this inhumane way of hunting during this period of hunting restriction.
5:94
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لَيَبْلُوَنَّكُمُ اللّهُ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الصَّيْدِ تَنَالُهُ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَرِمَاحُكُمْ لِيَعْلَمَ اللّهُ مَن يَخَافُهُ بِالْغَيْبِ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
Notice how 5:94 says "your hands" would reach the wild game. This means that it was an easy catch. The only time a prey is normally such an easy catch is when it is exhausted and especially when it is young. This is far more likely to happen during the time of extreme heat when young animals who have recently been born are already suffering from the heat.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2008, 11:04:39 PM
Peace Anwar,
I think that the word "scorching/ramadan" seems to be kind of like "red hot" in English. Thus, we hear in the Classical Arabic dictionaries the word used to describe what is commonly known as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English:
فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ،
تَشَكَّتْ عَيْنَيْها حتى كادتْ تَرْمَضُ،
Clearly, the above is a reference to the color and how the eye appears and not literally to the eye being blazing or buring or hot.
The same concept is used in relation to a woman whose thighs are rubbed:
والرَّمِضةُ: المرأةُ التي تَحُكُّ فَخِذُها فَخِذَها الأُخْرَى
Clearly, here it is again about the woman's thighs appearing red from the rubbing.
As a side note, there is also additional info in Classical Arabic dictionaries that link "ramadan" specifically to hunting. This is significant given the fact that the restricted period is about hunting:
والتَّرَمُّضُ: صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته.
وترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ: رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه.
This inhumane way of hunting would have a significant negative impact on the preservation of wild life and would very quickly decimate it. Apparently, the Arabs were using this inhumane way of hunting during this period of hunting restriction.
Peace Ayman;
Where are your Quranic Proof?
The Quran Shows you in a very well-Established verse that the Hot or the Pink is not the Word "Rammadan".
حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬اۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)
Here God discribes the color of the water at the time of the Sun Set (when the sun is reflecting on the water surface) as "Hammeaa" and not Rammadan.
The dictionary can not be above Quran...don't you agree.
:)
Peace everyone,
I have been following this thread with great interest and wanted to jump in and point out some additional defects in progod's theories and logic in addition to the ones mentioned by ayman.
Progod makes the following claims in an earlier post:
Quote from: progod58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones
Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people
5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads:
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage. But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.
The parts of his quote in red are completely wrong and misleading and I hope that was not intentional on his part.
Feeding 60 people is
not compensation for fasting for "shahrain",
but is a compensation for estranging one's wife per 58:3,
if one cannot fast for "shahrain" for estranging one's wife. Both fasting for "shahrain", and feeding 60 people are compensation for estranging one's wife.
5:89 and 58:3-4 are similar in the sense that in both verses,
feeding people is not compensation for fasting, and fasting for a few days is not compensation for feeding people, but
BOTH actions are compensation for something else. If feeding 60 people is equivalent to fasting for "shahrain" according to 58:4 and from this it is deduced that feeding one person = fasting one day, then using the
same logic, according to 5:89 feeding 3 people would be equivalent to fasting 10 days which gives an equation of one person = 3.33 days. Therefore, it cannot be said that according to The Qur'an, feeding one person is always equivalent to fasting one day.
This collapses the foundation of progod's theory.
A second defect in his theory is that what if a lunar month is 28 days ? How would a "Quranic month" be equal to 30 days then ?
A third defect is that 2:185 asks us to witness/"shahida" a "shahr". How can one "witness" a "month", which is an arbitrary man-made time period ? Does an angel blow a trumpet at the start of a month ? or does the temperature suddenly change at the onset of a month ? or is there a blinding flash of light at the start of a month ? :P
Also I am surprised to see why belalhammad is unable to realize that fighting in the hot month of June immediately before the "shahru ramadhan" could also be classified as "after" the restricted months of the hot season, and would thus have no bearing on fasting being in the period of scorching heat.
I would like to remain an interested observer without engaging in any debate unless some other point comes up. May God guide us all to the truth.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 15, 2008, 12:11:10 AM
Also I am surprised to see why belalhammad is unable to realize that fighting in the hot month of June immediately before the "shahru ramadhan" could also be classified as "after" the restricted months of the hot season, and would thus have no bearing on fasting being in the period of scorching heat.
Peace;
Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 15, 2008, 12:11:10 AM
Peace everyone,
I have been following this thread with great interest
But how come that you have a very deep knowledge of Ayman theory and your profile says that you just registered Today at 04:25:10 AM.
Just a Question? :confused:
Anyway welcome to the Fourm ;D
Salaam belal
Quote from: belalhammad on September 14, 2008, 11:35:28 PM
The Quran Shows you in a very well-Established verse that the Hot or the Pink is not the Word "Rammadan".
حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬اۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)
Here God discribes the color of the water at the time of the Sun Set (when the sun is reflecting on the water surface) as "Hammeaa" and not Rammadan.
The dictionary can not be above Quran...don't you agree.
:)
Where is your qur'aanic proof that "hami'a" is a description of colour/blazing?
Peace all,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PM
Peace be upon all,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply. As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 34:12: "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..." If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see. If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse? ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know. However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!
Br. Ayman, maybe you missed this.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 14, 2008, 06:48:05 PM
Salam everyone:
Now why are you so confused like Ayman in number of days per Moon Month?
Peace Br. belalhammad,
I'm not confused it's just that I haven't personally began from one full moon and then counted the number of days between it and the next. I just wanted to leave open the possibility that it could differ. The topic however is about the full moon itself and using it as a marker.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 14, 2008, 06:48:05 PM
The Number of Days will be the same if you were Honest when calculating; but Ayman is trying to Cheat Allah in Fasting by discounting the Month Days to 10 days.
:)
How did you conclude that this opinion is discounting 'month days' to 10 days? We are not saying that a 'month' is ten days. We are saying that 'shahr' should be translated as 'full moon', using it as a marker to begin the fasting and then the number of days total is based on the additional analysis of the verses.
I hope this clarifies what I am discussing. I was also looking for those who could answer directly the questions that I raised in my post if possible, those who take shahr to mean 'month'.
Quote from: farida on September 14, 2008, 07:13:41 PM
It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.
Peace Sis Farida,
Please Farida, you made two such comments and I really don't believe that it helps any. You are making an assumption that all of us here have egos just because we disagree and I am offended by that. I seek refuge with the god from arrogance and I hate it as well. I am posting here in all honestly to aid in arriving at the truth so please don't assume otherwise without proof as the god has told us that much suspicion is sin.
Quote from: farida on September 14, 2008, 07:13:41 PM
Please note that in this verse word Ramadan is mentioned and that this is the time of the great event when the Qur?an was sent down as guidance for mankind.
This was the great event for the whole mankind, it was hot in northern hemisphere and cold in the southern hemisphere that is when the night of degree originated. It happened therefore that this single event fell in different seasons in different parts of the world. We cannot make it a seasonal event related to Arabia only as that would mean the event should take place again and again and again for rest of the world. No it was one time for the whole world and if we make it a summer event, expecting everyone to celebrate it only in the summer, it becomes a local event not a universal one.
We sent it down during a Blessed NIGHT: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time: 2:189
That's a good point that you are pointing out and it's true. I will consider that some more however, remember also that this issue involves the forbidden 'full moons' in which hunting wild life is forbidden. How could this change from year to year? Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area. We can also try looking at it from this angle. In verse 2:189 are you translating 'ahillah' as 'moon'??
I read the rest of your post about 'sanah' and ''aam' and as I was looking over this issue I also realized that maybe now I can look into these two words. Since I haven't done so yet I really can't comment on this part but when I do we can exchange viewpoints on it. :) Also if you can answer some of the questions I raised initially, directly, I would appreciate that. Take care all.
Umm Tariq
From Arabic Classical dictionaries:
sana/sineen: periods of little/no rain/dryness/drought:
7:130: And We took the people of the Pharoh by drought
3aam: period of rain/vegetation (from 3aam: tall; for plant):
12:47 "He said: you will farm tiredlessly seven periods of little rain, so leave what you harvested on its /ears cobs, save for the little you will eat"
12: 48 " then will come seven periods of extreme hardness that will eat what you provided except the little that you saved"
12:49 "then after that comes a time of abundant rain when people will press". (the harvest)
The other verses containing these two words are not as explicit as these foor me. Any opinion?
Peace all --
2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait for four months...
Depending on the day in which this oath occurs waiting four full moons can vary by 28 days.
9:2 So walk/go/travel in the earth, four months?
How much time exactly does travel freely four full moons?
9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth, from it four (are) sacred?
12 full moons which 4 full moons (i.e. sightings/snapshots) are sacred? What does that mean?
Time is continuous (infinite snapshots) from a point in time to another point in time.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/C_solarcorona2003.gif)
2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
IF a man dies on August 17; his widow must wait 4 ?full moons? and 10 days.
Full Moon Dates 2008August 16 4:18 P.M.
September 15 4:15 A.M.
October 14 3:04 P.M.
November 13 12:19 A.M.
December 12 10:38 A.M.
Add 10 days ? December 22, 2008 is the term date
Calculate duration between two dates
http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html
From and including: Sunday, August 17, 2008
To and including: Monday, December 22, 2008
It is 128 days from the start date to the end date, end date included
IF a man dies on September 14; his widow must wait 4 ?full moons? and 10 days.
From and including: Sunday, September 14, 2008
To and including: Monday, December 22, 2008
It is 100 days from the start date to the end date, end date included
If shahr is month this woman is breaking the commandment by 28 days too early.
One can argue it is based on a menstrual cycle and each woman waits 4 periods and 10 days.
What about women past menopause between age of 45 and 55?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 15, 2008, 12:11:10 AM
A third defect is that 2:185 asks us to witness/"shahida" a "shahr". How can one "witness" a "month", which is an arbitrary man-made time period ?
To bear witness is to have knowledge of a thing which is not always physical.
Surah 85
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZrM7qYYrM
Peace
Peace,
Truth seeker, feeding people to subsitute for a fast is expiating the fast. Plain and simple. THe reasons for the fast are to either to compensate certain actions or to uphold God's commands. But we expiate daily fasts by feeding people for each fast we do not do. That is not illogical or misleading.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace,
Ayman I would like to point out that all of those quotes specififically refer to the feeling of heat, including the heat felt in a burning eye and from two thighs rubbing together. It is only your implication or better said, your guesswork, about the color being red. No color is mentioned in any of those quotes and all of them logically imply the feeling of heat as the main root ramada implies. So why are you guessing and putting the idea of color in here when it is not there?
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on September 15, 2008, 09:27:28 AMAyman I would like to point out that all of those quotes specififically refer to the feeling of heat, including the heat felt in a burning eye and from two thighs rubbing together. It is only your implication or better said, your guesswork, about the color being red. No color is mentioned in any of those quotes and all of them logically imply the feeling of heat as the main root ramada implies. So why are you guessing and putting the idea of color in here when it is not there?
Now you are just being argumentative and when you do that like some people here you forget your god-given common sense. Last time I checked no one who felt his eye burning had their eyes turn blue, white, or black. Their eyes always turn red. You think عيناها تَرْمَضانِ is refered to as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English for nothing? The term scorching is clearly about two things, heat and glowing red. So when referring to "shahr"/full-moon, they can only refer to the full-moon immediately after the summer solstice. Notice that you are now not arguing anymore about the indisputable scientific fact that this full moon will appear more red than the other full moons.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PMBr. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.
All thanks is due to the god sister. I only get credit for any mistakes. The god shows us the straight path by contrasting it with the paths of those who are lost (1:6-7). So it is always useful to compare all the different approaches and see which one is closest to the straight path to the truth.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PMAs of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.
This would depend on when the event of the full-moon occured. Remember your excellent analogy of full-moons and menstruations. The number of days will depend on when those events occur in relation to the start of the counting.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PMHowever, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 34:12: "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..." If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see. If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse? ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know. However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!
I don't think that anyone (including me) can say with certainty what 34:12 is talking about.
"The interrelationship of the solar wind and the earth?s magnetosphere is receiving considerable attention in recent years. It has been suggested that the passage of the moon through the earth?s magnetic shield may serve to trigger various weather and magnetic activity. The interrelationship of indicators like the geomagnetic index, solar flux and other measures of solar activity with the moon is just now in the process of being researched and understood." (From: http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/The-Astrology-of-Space/3031-The-Solar-Wind )
There is also other information that may be interesting but I don't think that it is scientifically proven:
http://www.policeops.com/full-moon-ion-effect.htm
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 03:56:31 PMRegarding verse 9:37, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow. The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime. Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
If the "nasi" is the 13th full moon (we don't know this for sure) then the problem was with making it permissible some years and not others. What we are told in the great reading is that we should never count it (i.e., we should skip it and start counting again at the next full-moon). A year with 13 full-moons occurs every three years and interestingly this simple and elegant method given in 9:36 would automatically and accurately maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 15, 2008, 05:04:51 AM
Peace all,
The topic however is about the full moon itself and using it as a marker.
How did you conclude that this opinion is discounting 'month days' to 10 days? We are not saying that a 'month' is ten days. We are saying that 'shahr' should be translated as 'full moon', using it as a marker to begin the fasting and then the number of days total is based on the additional analysis of the verses.
Peace Sis Farida,
Please Farida, you made two such comments and I really don't believe that it helps any. You are making an assumption that all of us here[/b] have egos just because we disagree and I am offended by that. I seek refuge with the god from arrogance and I hate it as well.
Umm Tariq
Salaam Umm Tariq,
Please read my reply again:
QuoteQuote from: farida on Today at 12:13:41 AM
It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.
You are a new member here and I hardly know you, I am surprised that you are offended by my general statement where I used the word "we"; that means including myself, I am sorry, its your problem if you took it as directed towards you. However I have highlighed above in red ,in your reply, where you are calling yourself part of Ayman's camp even though you say that you need to study this subject.
You seek refuge with the god from arrogance, so do I, but I do not see Ayman doing that, as he clearly wants to impose his theory or he calls others ignorant, "those who are lost" to him he is the only informed one and his is the "simple and elegant method" ::)
QuoteI am posting here in all honestly to aid in arriving at the truth so please don't assume otherwise without proof as the god has told us that much suspicion is sin.
When did I cast doubt on YOUR honesty ??? Assume what? That you are part of Ayman/'s team???? Did I touch some raw nerve ???
QuoteThat's a good point that you are pointing out and it's true. I will consider that some more however, remember also that this issue involves the forbidden 'full moons' in which hunting wild life is forbidden. How could this change from year to year
Thank you for noticing the good point and thank you again for considering it. While doing that do keep in mind that I am talking of two models to follow No single man made calender; one the lunar months that we follow for the month of fasting and Ayman's version could be acceptable for seasonal events like harvesting, restricted months etc.
QuoteAlso, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area. We can also try looking at it from this angle.
Why not use simple common sense!!!
Yes the message was descended on one man but for the benefit of
the whole mankind. So its the event not the messanger who is our concern but the message. Its not a local even but a universal one, and
it cannot be repeated in a mock exercise round the globe.
The 'night of measure' was a special night it was a night, during which there was night in one side of the world, afternoon at the other or early morning, what ever in other parts but, as Nun says in his last post "
Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflect!!!
QuoteIn verse 2:189 are you translating 'ahillah' as 'moon'
I did not translate the verse as I am not like some who manipulate translations according to their theory I said this:
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time: 2:189 Yes full cycle of moon from start to finish from one cresent to last one. I hope I made it clear now.
QuoteI read the rest of your post about 'sanah' and ''aam' and as I was looking over this issue I also realized that maybe now I can look into these two words. Since I haven't done so yet I really can't comment on this part but when I do we can exchange viewpoints on it. :)
It will benefit us all if we consider this:
18:12 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried! QuoteAlso if you can answer some of the questions I raised initially, directly, I would appreciate that. Take care all
If you read my replies in this thread it does answer your concerns, and its backed by the verses of the Quran. In my last reply to you I did reply to your questions by saying:
I am 100% convinced that the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of fasting.
Regarding the subject of witness now more signs for all and following Nun's post, how many more proof do you need after this :
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 15, 2008, 08:29:00 AM
Peace all --
2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait for four months...
9:2 So walk/go/travel in the earth, four months?[/color]
How much time exactly does travel freely four full moons?
9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth, from it four (are) sacred?
12 full moons which 4 full moons (i.e. sightings/snapshots) are sacred? What does that mean?
Time is continuous (infinite snapshots) from a point in time to another point in time.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/C_solarcorona2003.gif)
To bear witness is to have knowledge of a thing which is not always physical.
Surah 85
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZrM7qYYrM
Peace
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 14, 2008, 07:51:58 PMFrom the above observations I understand that "sana(t)" is used when referring to seasonal events ie harvest or restricted months and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon so in this type of calculations the summer solstice may be used As restricted/sacred month was observed by the pagans too. I wonder if sana(t) is the year which was used when it was divided into four/six season were used in a year prior to Islam.
And 3am is the years which take into account of seasonal as well as fixed term and making the total number of months 12.
Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.
When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 9:28, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 9:37, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 9:36.
This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg") being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.
Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 15, 2008, 01:24:05 PM
Peace Farida,
Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.
When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 9:28, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 9:37, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 9:36.
This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg") being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.
Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot of attention to my last post to Umm Tariq and then say thanks to me.
WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 18:12
Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried! I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 15, 2008, 01:51:17 PMIf you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
Logically, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.
Quote from: farida on September 15, 2008, 01:51:17 PMWE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 18:12 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!
The word YEARS doesn't occur in 18:12.
Quote from: farida on September 15, 2008, 01:51:17 PMI would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.
I think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and this is why you want to work out the best calculation for the term. This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 39:18). To put it in other terms, we shouldn't be stuck in paralysis in the traditional understanding while we are doing more analysis.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color). But how do we know this is pink eye?
I did a great injustice to this discusion by not looking up these quotes of yours before
فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضان
(Translation: She did not apply anitmony (to her eyes) until her eyes started to burn.)
(if the feminine taktahil refers to the eyes then the translation is: They (the eyes) were bothered until her eyes started to burn.)
In lisan al-arab iktahala is likened to kuhhala (passive of kahhala) and it says 'jufoonu 3uyoonin bil-qadhaa lam tukahhal' (The eyelids of the eyes with a foreign particle in them are not unbothered/at rest/at ease/refershed) it says that takahhala and iktahhala can be used the same way.
تَشَكَّتْ عَيْنَيْها حتى كادتْ تَرْمَضُ،
(Her eyes were pricked until they started to burn)
(shakka is to prick or jab with a lance an arrow or anything sharp, taskhakkaa would be a constant state of being pricked.)
So again, no mention of pink eye here. Ayman you are acting like pink eye is the only disease of the eye. And these contexts are talking about a disease of the eye that is cured most likely with antimony and that make the eyes BURN. That is the meaning of tarmidaan and tarmid here; TO BURN (To be or feel extremely hot (not to carbonize))
Now I am not being arugmentative but you are injected red into the meaning of ramada when burning is the only meaning there. Even iktahala is when the eyes are refreshed from sleep or from being healed and when they DON'T BURN. iktahala is the relief of the eyes from burning or the application of antimony to heal the eyes.
Please stop this interjection of meaning. There is nothing here that says that this is talking about pink eye or red eyes. It is talking about burning eyes in particular. The redness is optional, and not in the meaning here.
Thank you for the quotes. It is a shame most people cannot read Arabic well enough to see that you are injecting the color red into these quotes (you are injected pink eye as well) without red being there.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace,
And what about Hawl ?
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on September 15, 2008, 02:42:42 PMI never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).
This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 15, 2008, 02:40:22 PM
Peace Farida,
Logically, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam
Yes and yours is not a simple explanation, not even logically sound I paste here what I wrote earlier:
"Why not use simple common sense!!!
Yes the message was descended on one man but for the benefit of the whole mankind. So its the event not the messanger who is our concern but the message. Its not a local even but a universal one, and it cannot be repeated in a mock exercise round the globe.
The 'night of measure' was a special night it was a night, during which there was night in one side of the world, afternoon at the other or early morning, what ever in other parts but, as Nun says in his last post "Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflect"
QuoteThe word YEARS doesn't occur in 18:12.
Thanks for reminding, Its duly noted. I only took this from a Qur'an search, in English, under "years". Looks like someone added words they desired :P.
QuoteI think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 39:18).
Nor is your version credible it refuted by the Qur'an. Alhumdullilah I am following the best avaliable route. Who is more intellegent only Allah knows, but beware that Satan uses intelligence to mislead.
I don't beleive that you are seriously intersted in working with others for the benefit of the deen. It appears for you its your way or no way.
Quotethis is why you want to work out the best calculation for the term.
I am truly in search of the truth about sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this :
Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue: if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long : 29:14 [/b]
QuoteTo put it in other terms, we shouldn't be stuck in paralysis in the traditional understanding while we are doing more analysis
I think you are completely exhausted and "stuck in paralysis" after working on your Summer Solstice Scorching Full Moon Theory and could not contribute further but No worries just look at all the brilliant minds on free-minds and outside free-mind I'm sure the best calculations will be reached in due time. :sun:
:peace:
Quote from: Samia on September 15, 2008, 02:19:11 AM
Salaam belal
Where is your qur'aanic proof that "hami'a" is a description of colour/blazing?
Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
Salam
Quote from: Samia on September 15, 2008, 06:00:25 AM
From Arabic Classical dictionaries:
sana/sineen: periods of little/no rain/dryness/drought:
Peace;
When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 15, 2008, 07:12:17 PM
Peace;
When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.
Salaam belal
I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 15, 2008, 06:52:59 PM
Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
Salam
Quote from: belalhammad on September 14, 2008, 10:03:08 PM
Peace Progod:
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan:
حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬اۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)
Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).
:peace:
حمأ is black mud and حمئة is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.
Quote from: Samia on September 15, 2008, 08:27:32 PM
Salaam belal
I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.
Would you agree, based on the verses I provided, that we can not say that Sana means Drought?
Also, the verse you quoted does not have to be Drought, but could mean other meanings. It could mean that: for years God punished the people of Pharos.
Quote from: Samia on September 15, 2008, 08:45:33 PM
حمأ is black mud and حمئة is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.
Agree based on verses 15-26, 28. But in these verses The Mud could be Red Mud as well; don't you agree? thus, The meaning I refered to could be right, if we take the root word for Hamma'a into consideration. The Root word is "Hamia", which means HOT.
peace
Peace Ayman,
This is another case of you taking things too far. A burning sensation and the color red are not the same. These quotes are obviously referring to the burning sensation and NOT redness. To guess redness is adding a meaning that is not there, by conjecture. Not everyone's thighs turn red either. That depends on how dark their thighs are. And not all Arabs are light-skinned Arabs. In any case this is typical you. You should just admit that you are inserting your own meanings into these contexts. Because redness, which is humr, is not there. If Ramada referred to redness there would be an obvious meaning of Ihmarra (to turn red) or hamira (to be red). There is no need to change the meaning of a word based on what YOU think it should be, instead of what is actually mentioned.
The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.' That is what would have to be there to say that ramada implies redness. So now you are doing what a great deal of Free-minders used to do with words inside of the Quran (changing their meanings to what they think they should mean despite what the definition of the word really is), but now you are doing it to the words in the context of the dictionaries. Great Job! Not.
Godbless,
Anwar
QuotePeace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on Today at 07:42:42 AM
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).
This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on September 15, 2008, 09:43:33 PMThe dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.'
The dictionary doesn't say that "strawberries with the logical and normal connotation that these strawberries, and everything else that has strawberries involved, is red". Yet somehow, English-speaking people know that when people mention "strawberry moon" they talk about the moon around the summer solstice because that is when strawberries are harvested and because it is RED. Similarly, ancient Arabs undoubtedly knew that when people mention "scorching full-moon" they talk about the full-moon after the summer solstice because that is when the weather is hot and it is RED.
Let me put it in a simpler way so that maybe you can get it. You have two people in front of you. One has normal white eyes and the other one has red eyes. One of them complains that their eyes are scorching. Which one do you think it is? The answer is clear.
Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 15, 2008, 11:00:08 PM
Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.
Peace Ayman:
Can I answer?
Thank you
I will choose the one that is more Red
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 09, 2008, 07:32:50 PM
Peace everyone,
2:185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it
Which is Ramadan?
Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
Harvest Moon - September
(http://www.earthsky.org/images/13821.jpg)
This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.
Hunter's Moon - October
(http://www.nightskyinfo.com/sky_highlights/hunters_moon/full_moon_small.jpg)
With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.
That would be the Hunter Moon and I would never choose the Solistic Moon because it looks whiter :!.
Note, Rammadan does not mean Red or Hot, nor Shaher means Full Moon, according to Quran :)
Peace be upon all,
"You are a new member here and I hardly know you, I am surprised that you are offended by my general statement where I used the word "we"; that means including myself, I am sorry, its your problem if you took it as directed towards you. However I have highlighed above in red ,in your reply, where you are calling yourself part of Ayman's camp even though you say that you need to study this subject.
You seek refuge with the god from arrogance, so do I, but I do not see Ayman doing that, as he clearly wants to impose his theory or he calls others ignorant, "those who are lost" to him he is the only informed one and his is the "simple and elegant method" Roll Eyes"
Farida, you using 'we' is still an assumption on your part about 'everyone else', just talk about yourself might be better. Like I said, it doesn't help in a mutual discussion where people are trying to learn. Why is it that if two people, from two completely different backgrounds happen to come to the same conclusion on what something means in the god's book it becomes one or the other's 'camp'? Ayman was not in my house when I first began reading people's articles and posts and holding a gun to my head for me to only accept what he says! I investigated what I read and if I agreed alhamdulillah and if I didn't alhamdulillah. Does anyone here agree with everything any other person says? This is what I mean Farida, having to go off topic because you insist on making such comments and personal attacks on others, IT DOESN"T HELP!!! And because I am new just trying to seek more information, I do not need you throwing your hatred for someone else towards me just because I happen to agree with one of their opinions that is based on the god's book. You two should make peace between each other and all who like to throw around personal insults should refrain from doing so. Be straightforward but don't make assumptions without proof or just trying to provoke others. Farida, you talk about how Ayman acts but when I read your posts, I see that you feel just as strong as well about your opinions and in my opinion you can be very offensive about it as well. As a new member, when I read your posts, I feel turned off from even seeing what you have to say because of how offensive you are. This is my honest observation. Is it all necessary? Can we be firm, but yet openminded, about our opinions based on the reading without being offensive to one another??
"Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area. We can also try looking at it from this angle."
This was just a suggestion really. Your truth is not necessarily someone else's truth, THE TRUTH is in the god's book and we can all try our best to understanding it properly.
Here are my exact questions again 'bold' if you can answer from your viewpoint anew or cut and paste from where you believe you already answered them since I cannot find them.
"...It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it."
"In 2:228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 65:4, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2:228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "
"When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 9:5, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?" (If you are not following the sunni traditionalist calendar as it is, you believe it is different in some way, then please share your opinion about that, i.e. which are the 4 hurum in your opinion.)
"Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?"
I am asking these questions to any who believe that 'shahr' means 'month'. I would like these questions answered from this perspective so I can compare, that's all. I appreciate anyone's input.
Umm Tariq
Peace Ayman,
"This would depend on when the event of the full-moon occured. Remember your excellent analogy of full-moons and menstruations. The number of days will depend on when those events occur in relation to the start of the counting."
Yes and I did update that point in a later post by mentioning 'in the minimum' it's off by a 'month'.
"I don't think that anyone (including me) can say with certainty what 34:12 is talking about. "
:( O Our Lord, increase us in knowledge.
"A year with 13 full-moons occurs every three years and interestingly this simple and elegant method given in 9:36 would automatically and accurately maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons."
Have you personally been counting the full moons yourself since you came to this conclusion about 'shahr' and noticed this happened during your count? I intend to start this myself, it would be the first time I ever did such in my life, now there's a good reason to try it.
Of course all of the praise and thanks is to the god for any good and for what helps increase us in knowledge and wisdom. I didn't see anything wrong with thanking you personally for your post since it was informative for me alhamdulillah. May the god reward us all for our sincere efforts and guide us to the truth in which the people differ.
Umm Tariq
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 16, 2008, 05:33:27 AM
"In 2:228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month.
....However, in verse 65:4, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2:228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "
There is no disagreement; depends on date of divorce and menstrual cycle.
Full Moon/Menstrual Dates 2008
September 15 4:15 A.M.
October 14 3:04 P.M.
November 13 12:19 A.M.
December 12 10:38 A.M.
If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months
If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum
For 2:228 we are to use 3 menstrual cycles as stated, whereas...
2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?
How should women past menopause (average age 45 to 55) read the above?
Wait 4 full moons/menstrual cycles and 10 days -- how does that work?
For 2:234 we are to use
4 months and 10 days as stated.
Peace
Peace Nun de Plume,
I appreciate your post. I understand what you mean about how the starting dates vary and which will vary the whole time waiting, this happens whether one uses 'full moon' or 'month. However, notice that I was referring to 'the minimum' in both verses. I was looking at the consistency of the two verses. In the minimum, if you translate 65:4 using 'full moon' then it will automatically equal the time in 2:228, in the minimum. You see what I am talking about? If you use 'month' then, in the minimum, they do not agree and that's what for me, gives weight to 'full moon'. Yeah, I just noticed something, you only put possible dates based on the menstrual cycles which is a clear marker. If we do the same for the women in 65:4 using 'month' (this is my contention) then this is what we get:
Full Moon/Month Dates 2008
September 15 4:15 A.M.
October 14 3:04 P.M.
November 13 12:19 A.M.
December 12 10:38 A.M.
If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'months', until
Jan. 13th.If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'full moons' until Dec. 12th (2 'months' approx.)
If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months
If divorce is on Sept. 16 she waits for 3 'full moons' (just shy of 3 months total)\
If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum
You see the agreement between menstrual cycles calculations and full moons as opposed to using 'months' outright? In the minimum case for 'months', 3 months is 3 months.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 16, 2008, 08:33:18 AM
For 2:228 we are to use 3 menstrual cycles as stated, whereas...
2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?
How should women past menopause (average age 45 to 55) read the above?
Wait 4 full moons/menstrual cycles and 10 days -- how does that work?
For 2:234 we are to use 4 months and 10 days as stated.
Peace
I don't see the difference in how women past menopause read the above since it's for whoever's husband has died. They of course can't count by menstrual cycles but they can count by 'full moons' as well which as you can see would come out,
in the minimum to be 3 'months' and 10 days. Using the dates example helped bring more clarity to the issue.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 16, 2008, 05:33:27 AM
Peace be upon all,
Farida, you using 'we' is still an assumption on your part about 'everyone else', just talk about yourself might be better.
Salaam Umm Tariq,
I am sorry I do not look at it that way.
QuoteLike I said, it doesn't help in a mutual discussion where people are trying to learn. ..... I investigated what I read and if I agreed alhamdulillah and if I didn't alhamdulillah. Does anyone here agree with everything any other person says?
If you are honestly trying to learn, then how come you are ignoring excellent points raised by:
progod Anwar, I commend his patience in this thread, he has honestly and unbiasly covered the linguistic approach to many words; that makes no sense to you?
Nun de plume, excellent observation with regards to the summer solstice full moon an impressive calculation,
Belalhammad summed up:
Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod. You have learned nothing from these posts ???
QuoteThis is what I mean Farida, having to go off topic because you insist on making such comments and personal attacks on others, IT DOESN"T HELP!!!
Yes I too dislike when topic is derailed and people are distracted from the actul issues. AND I MADE NO SUCH PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. I DO NOT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY NO DO I HAVE ANY SUCH DESIRE.
QuoteAnd because I am new just trying to seek more information, I do not need you throwing your hatred for someone else towards me just because I happen to agree with one of their opinions that is based on the god's book.
I am
NOT throwing hatred towards anyone; I am simply defending my faith.
QuoteYou two should make peace between each other and all who like to throw around personal insults should refrain from doing so. Be straightforward but don't make assumptions without proof or just trying to provoke others. Farida, you talk about how Ayman acts but when I read your posts, I see that you feel just as strong as well about your opinions and in my opinion you can be very offensive about it as well. As a new member, when I read your posts, I feel turned off from even seeing what you have to say because of how offensive you are. This is my honest observation. Is it all necessary? Can we be firm, but yet openminded, about our opinions based on the reading without being offensive to one another??
Maybe you missed this post of mine too:
Quote from: farida on September 10, 2008, 07:32:43 PM
Salaam Ayman,
I notice you have been ignoring my posts of late. If, in any way, I have offended you please understand it was not malicious but sometimes, in order to reach a conclusion, one needs to be frank and straightforward.
I would like to thank you for inviting me to take part in this discussion, and let me tell you it has been the most productive ten day of the month of Ramadan for me, and a lot of the credit goes to you for making us find out the truth ourselves.
Best regards
farida
I hope you notice that I received no response to my appeal above just because I disagreed with Ayman BTW you would exempt the blinds (positive discrimination) from fasting too ???
QuoteThis was just a suggestion really. Your truth is not necessarily someone else's truth,
I too only gave my common sense approach, which coincides with the truth that time continues.
QuoteTHE TRUTH is in the god's book and we can all try our best to understanding it properly. Here are my exact questions again 'bold' if you can answer from your viewpoint anew or cut and paste from where you believe you already answered them since I cannot find them.
"...It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it."
Maybe you missed this post too which btw. is backed by "
THE TRUTH is in the god's book"
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #258 on: September 09, 2008, 01:36:50 PM ?
________________________________________
Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.
41:20
At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
41:21 They will say to their SKINs: "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say: "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.
41:22 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do! I would therefore ask Ayman again: Do you still think there is no obligation on the blind to fast and, if so, where is the evidence for that All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Quote"In 2:228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 65:4, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2:228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "
You have an eloquent reply to your query above, posted by: Nun de plume , which is a great help for someone like me, I am sure you would learn a lot with the post exchange.Thanks Nun.
Quote"When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 9:5, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?" (If you are not following the sunni traditionalist calendar as it is, you believe it is different in some way, then please share your opinion about that, i.e. which are the 4 hurum in your opinion.)
"Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?"
I repeat what I wrote earlier:
I
am truly in search of the truth about the sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this :Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue: if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long : 29:14 [/b]
Quote from: farida on September 15, 2008, 01:51:17 PM
Salaam Ayman,
If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot of attention to my last post to Umm Tariq and then say thanks to me.
WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 18:12 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!
I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.
:peace:
:peace:
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 16, 2008, 05:51:33 AMHave you personally been counting the full moons yourself since you came to this conclusion about 'shahr' and noticed this happened during your count? I intend to start this myself, it would be the first time I ever did such in my life, now there's a good reason to try it.
Yes, we do have to count only 12 and skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon as per 9:36. This year's solar cycle was precisely such cycle that had 13 full-moons between the two summer solstice. So I counted 12 and I skipped counting the 13th full-moon on June 18th:
Summer Solstice 2007
1. JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)
2. JULY 30, 2007
3. AUG 28, 2007
4. SEPT 26, 2007
5. OCT 26, 2007
6. NOV 24, 2007
7. DEC 24, 2007
8. JAN 22, 2008
9. FEB 21, 2008
10. MAR 21, 2008
11. APR 20, 2008
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip)
Summer Solstice 2008
1. JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 2008)
Therefore, the marker, the "scorching full moon", became the one that we witnessed on July 17th. This also automatically adjusted the full-moon cycle so that it is in sync with the seasons. Please note that this method is independent of any manmade calendar and thus can be used in conjunction with any calendar (for example, the Gregorian calendar as above or even the so-called Islamic calendar) or without any calendar.
Peace,
Ayman
The Islamic Calendar
There are only few sources about the calendars used on the Arabian peninsula in pre-Islamic times, especially for central Arabia. In what is now Yemen probably a modified Julian calendar was in use with a year beginning in April. For central Arabia it is known that there were four "forbidden" months in which warfare had to cease, for instance. Sure 9 of the Qur'an states that the number of months in a year is twelve and rejects any "shifting" (nasi). The word nasi does not necessarily designate the insertion of an additional month, which would suggest the existence of lunisolar calendars in pre-Islamic Arabia. But probably only religious feasts were moved from one month to the next according to certain circumstances.
The Islamic calendar as it is used today as well as the counting of years according to the Hijra era were introduced at the latest during the reign of caliph 'Umar (caliph 634-644). Already slightely more than a hundred years later, in about 750 Islamic territory strechted from Andalusia in the west to Samarkand in Central Asia in the east. Thus, the calendar being based on moon observations dates could (and can) differ in various areas.
In the 9th century CE science reached a high level in the caliphate, especially during the reign of al-Ma'mun (r. 813-833). For astronomical almanacs schematic versions of the calendar were created, which were used in comprehensive tables and for chronological purposes.
Internal Structure and Era
The year consists of twelve months strictly bound to lunar phases. Names and order of the months are shown in the follwing table(1).
No. Name
1 Muharram
2 Safar
3 Rabi al-Awwal
4 Rabi al-Akhir
5 Djumada 'l-Ula
6 Djumada 'l-Akhira
7 Radjab
8 Shaban
9 Ramadan
10 Shawwal
11 Dhu 'l-Kada
12 Dhu 'l-Hidjdja
The beginning of each month was determined by the first visibility of the crescent after new moon(2). The visibility of the crescent depends on the observer's location as well as on the meteorological conditions. Therefore, months of as many as 31 days occurred although a synodic month has a length of about 29.5 days only. An exception is the 9th month of the Islamic year, Ramadan, which is considered as ending with the 30th day latest, presumably because of the strict fasting to be observed during daylight. Despite the uncertainty about the actual last day of a month, days were sometimes counted backwards from a supposed final day.
The era of the Islamic calendar is taken by some to be 15 July 622 CE, others put it one day later on 16 July 622 CE (Julian). It commemorates the move of Muhammad from Mekka to Medina (then called Yathrib), the Hijra. The exact date of the Hijra has not been found so far, but it took place probably about two months later. As for the difference of one day between the two eras in use, that has only theoretical importance calendrically, the beginning of each month being determined by observation.
Schematic Version
A great disadvantage for computations is the observation-based beginning of each month. Future events cannot be dated exactly as the visibility conditions for a certain day and location are not known in advance. Thus, a regular calendar with fixed month lengths and intercalation rules was required especially for astronomical calculations.
To tackle this problem a schematic version of the Islamic calendar was developed with the months having lengths of alternating 30 and 29 days, beginning with the first month Muharram. The last month Dhu 'l-Hidjdja was given a length of 29 days in common years or 30 days in leap years.
No. Name Length
Common
Year Leap
Year
1 Muharram 30 30
2 Safar 29 29
3 Rabi al-Awwal 30 30
4 Rabi al-Akhir 29 29
5 Djumada 'l-Ula 30 30
6 Djumada 'l-Akhira 29 29
7 Radjab 30 30
8 Shaban 29 29
9 Ramadan 30 30
10 Shawwal 29 29
11 Dhu 'l-Kada 30 30
12 Dhu 'l-Hidjdja 29 30
To keep the calendar aligned with the moon's phases 11 years of a 30-year-cycle were made leap years. These were the 2nd, 5th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 18th, 21st, 24th, 26th, and 29th years(3). The era of this calendar is 16 July 622 (Because days begin with sunset, that moment falls on 15 July 622 already.) Sometimes the counting was begun a day earlier.
Holidays and Feast Days
Canonical holidays are 'Id al-'Adha on 10 Dhu 'l-Hidjdja as well as the end of the fasting period ('Id al-fitr) beginning on 1 Shawwal and lasting three or four days. Besides these two holidays, further feast and remembrance days are observed.
During the whole month Ramadan is strict fasting is observed between sunrise and sunset. During daylight eating and drinking is prohibited. Exceptios are made, e. g. for expecting women, nursing mothers, the ill or old who would have to fast later or donate food for the poor etc. instead.
To Shiite muslims the month Muharram is a mourning period, especially 10 Muharram. This remembers the martyr death of Husain in the battle of Kerbela on 10 Muharram in the year 61 of the Hijra.
During the first years of Islam, still before the hijra, 10 Muharram was assigned to be a fasting day because Moses was said to have fasted on that day. However, after the introduction of Ramadan as a fasting month fasting on 10 Muharram was no more obligatory.
12 Rabi al-Awwal, called Mawlid, is celebrated as the prophet Muhammad's birthday and is an official holiday in many countries. The actual origin is Muhammad's death in the year 11 of the Hijra (first half of June 632 Julian). It was not until the reign of the Fatimid dynasty in the Middle Ages that it was started to be celebrated as a feast day in Egypt. Therefore in some areas 12 Rabi al-Awwal is considered a day of mourning until today.
One of the last five odd nights of Ramadan , most often that of 27 Ramadan, is Lailat al-Qadr in which the first reveal of the Qur'an is said to have taken place.
The full moon night of Shaban (i. e. the one of 15 Shaban) is Lailat al-Bara'at in which sins are pardoned and destiny determined. The night of 27 Radjab is celebrated as the night of the prophet's heavenly journey (Lailat al-Mi'raj).
Tax Year in the Ottoman Empire
Many difficulties arose because the calendar was completely independent from the seasons. Islamic New Year slowly moved backwards through the seasons 11 days a year, while harvest was only possible in late summer and autumn. In the Ottoman Empire, therefore, the tax year was oriented on the Julian calendar, beginning on 1 September until 1677, when the beginning of the tax year was moved to 1 March. However, the salaries were paid according to the Islamic year, which led to difficulties in bookkeeping. In addition, the different lengths of the years required the ommission of a tax year every 33 Julian years, so as to give tax year and Islamic year roughly the same number. In 1872 documents for the following tax year had been printed with the tax year number 1288 instead of the correct 1289, and subsequently the decision was made to count tax years in an unbroken sequence from then on. Since then Islamic year and tax year did not correspond anymore. In 1917 the beginning of the tax year was shifted to 1 March of the Gregorian calendar. Thus, tax year 1333 began on 1 March 1917. The last tax year following this reckoning was 1341, and on 1 January 1926 the Gregorian calendar was introduced.
:peace:
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 16, 2008, 09:29:52 AM
I appreciate your post. I understand what you mean about how the starting dates vary and which will vary the whole time waiting, this happens whether one uses 'full moon' or 'month. However, notice that I was referring to 'the minimum' in both verses. I was looking at the consistency of the two verses. In the minimum, if you translate 65:4 using 'full moon' then it will automatically equal the time in 2:228, in the minimum. You see what I am talking about? If you use 'month' then, in the minimum, they do not agree and that's what for me, gives weight to 'full moon'.
65:4 gives the maximum (3 months) which includes the minimum case.
2:228 And the divorced wait with themselves 3 menstrual cycles
3 menstrual cycles can vary between 2 - 3 months.
65:4?so their term/count (is) three months
3 months is the maximum for 3 menstrual cycles. No contradiction.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 16, 2008, 09:29:52 AM
Yeah, I just noticed something, you only put possible dates based on the menstrual cycles which is a clear marker. If we do the same for the women in 65:4 using 'month' (this is my contention) then this is what we get:
Full Moon/Month Dates 2008
September 15 4:15 A.M.
October 14 3:04 P.M.
November 13 12:19 A.M.
December 12 10:38 A.M.
If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'months', until Jan. 13th.
If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'full moons' until Dec. 12th (2 'months' approx.)
If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months
If divorce is on Sept. 16 she waits for 3 'full moons' (just shy of 3 months total)\
If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum
You see the agreement between menstrual cycles calculations and full moons as opposed to using 'months' outright? In the minimum case for 'months', 3 months is 3 months.
Do you see that 65:4
3 months covers any
3 menstrual cycles?
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 16, 2008, 09:29:52 AM
I don't see the difference in how women past menopause read the above since it's for whoever's husband has died. They of course can't count by menstrual cycles but they can count by 'full moons' as well which as you can see would come out, in the minimum to be 3 'months' and 10 days. Using the dates example helped bring more clarity to the issue.
The verse says wait 4 months and 10 days.
If they go outside each night/day to see 4 full moons they can be 28 days too early.
That is disobedience to a commandment of God.
Too many inconsistencies with full moons -- what are 4 sacred full moons?
9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, from it four (are) sacred...
Salaam belal
Quote from: belalhammad on September 15, 2008, 09:32:49 PM
Would you agree, based on the verses I provided, that we can not say that Sana means Drought?
Also, the verse you quoted does not have to be Drought, but could mean other meanings. It could mean that: for years God punished the people of Pharos.
It's just not the style of the qur'aan which usually tells us what the punishment was, not how long it lasted.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 15, 2008, 09:32:49 PM
Agree based on verses 15-26, 28. But in these verses The Mud could be Red Mud as well; don't you agree? thus, The meaning I refered to could be right, if we take the root word for Hamma'a into consideration. The Root word is "Hamia", which means HOT.
Hama' and Haamia are two different words that do not share the same root. The first has the root (Ha Meem hamza), which generlly means black/black mud; the second has the root (Ha Meem Ya), which means hot.
In verses 15-26,28, it is clear that "hama' '" is black clay...from which is derived the noun adam: dust, crust of the earth; also: a black/dark person.
We can count days through sunrise and its setting, we can count months with either cresent moon or full? but i guess full would be better to start counting a month because we cant miss it. NOw my question is how do we count years?
if we ignore the Red moon , then there is no natural marker available. Moreover the ayah saying, "count of the month is twelve" is precisely there for this purpose, so that we can start counting from a natural celestial marker and ignore the 13th if it is there to auto correct, along the sun cycle, makes sense to me.
siki
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2008, 02:30:15 PMWe can count days through sunrise and its setting, we can count months with either cresent moon or full? but i guess full would be better to start counting a month because we cant miss it. NOw my question is how do we count years?
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night we have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and we have explained all things in detail.The ONLY possible way to use "night and day" to know the number of years is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice).
Of course, the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the scorching full-moon after the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(dusk) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , From sun rise to sun set, but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense, Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
And most likely it is days not a month, cause the command uses the word days , not month, had it been a whole full month , He would not have used the word days.
siki
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2008, 03:09:23 PM
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. and it clearly indicates that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
This is a good remark
Peace everyone,
Quote from: progod on September 15, 2008, 02:42:42 PM
Peace,
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color). But how do we know this is pink eye?
I did a great injustice to this discusion by not looking up these quotes of yours before
فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضان
(Translation: She did not apply anitmony (to her eyes) until her eyes started to burn.)
(if the feminine taktahil refers to the eyes then the translation is: They (the eyes) were bothered until her eyes started to burn.)
In lisan al-arab iktahala is likened to kuhhala (passive of kahhala) and it says 'jufoonu 3uyoonin bil-qadhaa lam tukahhal' (The eyelids of the eyes with a foreign particle in them are not unbothered/at rest/at ease/refershed) it says that takahhala and iktahhala can be used the same way.
تَشَكَّتْ عَيْنَيْها حتى كادتْ تَرْمَضُ،
(Her eyes were pricked until they started to burn)
(shakka is to prick or jab with a lance an arrow or anything sharp, taskhakkaa would be a constant state of being pricked.)
So again, no mention of pink eye here. Ayman you are acting like pink eye is the only disease of the eye. And these contexts are talking about a disease of the eye that is cured most likely with antimony and that make the eyes BURN. That is the meaning of tarmidaan and tarmid here; TO BURN (To be or feel extremely hot (not to carbonize))
Now I am not being arugmentative but you are injected red into the meaning of ramada when burning is the only meaning there. Even iktahala is when the eyes are refreshed from sleep or from being healed and when they DON'T BURN. iktahala is the relief of the eyes from burning or the application of antimony to heal the eyes.
Please stop this interjection of meaning. There is nothing here that says that this is talking about pink eye or red eyes. It is talking about burning eyes in particular. The redness is optional, and not in the meaning here.
Thank you for the quotes. It is a shame most people cannot read Arabic well enough to see that you are injecting the color red into these quotes (you are injected pink eye as well) without red being there.
Godbless,
Anwar
When I read this, 17:36 came to my mind:
17:36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
I consulted a doctor friend of mine and also did some research about the eye. What I found is that whenever the eye burns because of any reason, be it an infection or foreign object etc., it is because of what is called "acute inflammation", and is ALWAYS accompanied by redness in the eye. The eye could belong to a white or a black guy, but it will ALWAYS be red in addition to burning. The redness is not "optional". This is because whenever there is acute inflammation, there is increased blood flow to the organ, causing swelling, heat, pain, and REDNESS.
Definition of "inflammation":
Inflammation (Latin, inflammatio, to set on fire) is the complex biological response of vascular tissues to harmful stimuli, such as pathogens, damaged cells, or irritants. It is a protective attempt by the organism to remove the injurious stimuli as well as initiate the healing process for the tissue.
Definition of "acute inflammation":
Acute inflammation is a short-term process which is characterized by
the classic signs of inflammation - swelling, redness, pain, heat, and loss of function - due to the infiltration of the tissues by plasma and leukocytes. It occurs as long as the injurious stimulus is present and ceases once the stimulus has been removed, broken down, or walled off by scarring (fibrosis)
The burning eye as meant by "tarmad" would ALWAYS imply redness too; it is not "optional". Once the stimulus is removed, the pain, heat, redness, and swelling all go away. So "iktahala" is the relief of the eye from burning, which implies relief from redness too.
This has strengthened my faith in The Quran and has solidified the meaning of "shahru ramadhan" to be nothing else but "red hot full-moon". May God guide us all to the truth.
Peace farida,
Quote from: faridaTherefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.
41:20 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
41:21 They will say to their SKINs: "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say: "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.
41:22 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!
I will let ayman answer this but I have a question.
As is apparent from the above referenced verses, the skin will bear witness on the Last Day and not this life. The issue of fasting is in the here and now, and not in the hereafter. My question is that how can ears and skin witness a "shahr" ? Does an angel blow a trumpet during "shahr" or does the temperature suddenly jump many degrees ? :hmm
Peace bilal,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 15, 2008, 12:36:56 AM
Peace;
Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.
But how come that you have a very deep knowledge of Ayman theory and your profile says that you just registered Today at 04:25:10 AM.
Just a Question? :confused:
Anyway welcome to the Fourm ;D
Thank you for the welcome :)
I was commenting about progod and not ayman; perhaps you meant that I have "deep knowledge" of progod's theories?
If reading someone's posts on a thread gives me a "deep knowledge" of their theories, then BEWARE: I have "deep knowledge" of your theories too :P
FOR YOUR INFORMATION: One can read the posts on a forum for years without registering. :!
As far as your argument is concerned:
1. Please prove that ALL wars ALWAYS last more than a month and back it up with undisputable evidence. Some wars in history have been decisively fought and won within a few days. Conversely, ALL wars do not ALWAYS end in 8 months; some can last years. So according to your logic, the believers should never start a war thinking "what if it lasts long enough to encroach on the following restricted shahoor".
The following gives a list of important short wars:
http://listverse.com/politics/top-10-shortest-wars/
Any of those could have been started in May and would have ended before July ;)
2. Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 9:81 lasted more than a month.
3. Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 9:81 was immediately after the restricted shahoor.
The above are enough to collapse your argument ;)
Peace nun,
Quote from: nunTo bear witness is to have knowledge of a thing which is not always physical.
1. "To bear witness" is "to provide..........", not "to have...........".
2. In 2:185, as explained by samia already in one of the earlier posts, "shahida" does not mean "to bear witness" but "to witness". We can only witness something using our own senses, and to witness something is to witness it firsthand. To witness is not to rely on a secondhand information or a calendar. That is called "belief" or "trust". How can you witness an arbitrarily assigned man-made period of time known as a "month" using your senses ?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 16, 2008, 03:26:23 PM
Peace farida,
I will let ayman answer this but I have a question.
As is apparent from the above referenced verses, the skin will bear witness on the Last Day and not this life. The issue of fasting is in the here and now, and not in the hereafter.
My question is that how can ears and skin witness a "shahr" ? Does an angel blow a trumpet during "shahr" or does the temperature suddenly jump many degrees ? :hmm
Finger prints, DNA sample from your skin can bear witness and are used in this life Now!This is what I said before:
Quote from: farida on September 09, 2008, 04:22:27 PM
Salaam Anthony and everyone,
Indeed!! As I understand from the verse above, there is no undue expectations on the physically impaired and, performing within their capacity will earn them a reward on par with that of the able.
However the argument was: ‘how can one witness a month?’ so it must, here, imply the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan".
As we learn from verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify.
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one’s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ‘I did not witness the month of Ramadan’. His skin will then speak out against him.
b.“ those amongst you who witnessed’” exclude only those who are mentally incapacitated.
These verses also made me realise that the deaf, the dumb and the blind are not excluded from testifying.
How does a deaf or dumb person bear witness?
By the use of eyes and skin, which would include using sign language, as well as employing writing tools. In both cases the skin is used to bear witness. Similarly a deaf person, capable of speaking, may use his sight and his lips/skin .
A blind person can use the skin (to feel with), along with the ears to witness and, regarding the month of Ramadan, a blind person has witnessed it simply by being present in his body, in that month .
This, in my opinion, is conclusive evidence, but I would welcome any input from others.
I hope we can now look into a timing device, using the sun and the moon, as a next step forward.
:peace:
My concluding post said, summed up:
I have strong proofs from the Qur’an to believe that;
“Amongst those who witnessed” the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
More importantly the month of fasting is not confined to the months of extreme heat.
If we say that 1:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.
:peace:
Peace farida,
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 04:28:56 PM
Finger prints, DNA sample from your skin can bear witness and are used in this life Now!
This is what I said before:My concluding post said, summed up:
I have strong proofs from the Qur?an to believe that;
?Amongst those who witnessed? the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
More importantly the month of fasting is not confined to the months of extreme heat.
If we say that 1:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.
:peace:
You still have not answered my question. How can a blind man witness a "shahr" using ears and skin ?
You say that:
Quote from: farida?Amongst those who witnessed? [/b] the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
1. How can a blind man witness a "shahr" using his ears and skin ?
2. EVERYONE is present during a "shahr". "Those among you who witness" obviously cannot mean "everyone". If everyone present is meant, the phrase would be "when the shahr is witnessed".
You say that:
Quote from: faridaMore importantly the month of fasting is not confined to the months of extreme heat.
If we say that 1:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war alluded to in 9:81 could have still been during heat if it was in June, just before "shahru ramadhan".
You say that:
Quote from: faridaThe war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time
Is that a fact ?
I asked bilal something and I will ask you the same. "HAATOO BURHAANAKUM", bring forth your proof if you are truthful!
1. Please prove that ALL historical wars ALWAYS lasted more than a month and back it up with undisputable evidence. Some wars in history have been decisively fought and won within a few days. Conversely, ALL wars do not ALWAYS end in 8 months; some can last years. So according to your logic, the believers should never start a war thinking "what if it lasts long enough to encroach on the following restricted shahoor".
The following gives a list of important short wars:
http://listverse.com/politics/top-10-shortest-wars/
Any of those could have been started in May and would have ended before July, and still be "during the heat" if fought in a desert in the Northern Hemisphere ;)
2. Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 9:81 lasted more than a month.
Peace progod,
Quote from: progod on September 15, 2008, 09:22:14 AM
Peace,
Truth seeker, feeding people to subsitute for a fast is expiating the fast. Plain and simple. THe reasons for the fast are to either to compensate certain actions or to uphold God's commands. But we expiate daily fasts by feeding people for each fast we do not do. That is not illogical or misleading.
Godbless,
Anwar
Feeding people in 58:3-4 is not a compensation for fasting, but both are compensation for estranging one's wife, and are thus
equivalent, but
not compensation for the other.
Similarly in 5:89, feeding the people and fasting are compensation for breaking oath, and are thus
equivalent but
not compensation for the other. The ratio here, arrived by the same principle of EQUIVALENCE is 1:3.33 and not 1:1
For your theory to be correct, feeding 60 people should have been a DIRECT compensation for fasting 60 days (sitteen ayyaam).
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2008, 03:09:23 PM
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(dusk) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , From sun rise to sun set, but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense, Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
And most likely it is days not a month, cause the command uses the word days , not month, had it been a whole full month , He would not have used the word days.
siki
Salaam Siki
You are talking about the benefits of fasting- the benefits are huge, and thought provoking;
Here we should consider two aspects :
a.
The benefits of fasting - you can discover this as you pay attention and do research on this.
b.
The purpose of fasting - We have been given the purpose of fasting from God
2:183 O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation. The purpose of fasting is linked to feeding the poor and empathy. Unless one goes thorough an experience of hunger one cannot feel what it?s like for those who suffer starvation for whatever reason. For further details see:
My detailed answer, the last post on Re: Ramadan
? Reply #72 on: September 12, 2008, 06:08:39 PM ?
this link: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15421.60
:peace:
Peace truthseeker11,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 16, 2008, 04:04:48 PM
1. "To bear witness" is "to provide..........", not "to have...........".
2. In 2:185, as explained by samia already in one of the earlier posts, "shahida" does not mean "to bear witness" but "to witness". We can only witness something using our own senses, and to witness something is to witness it firsthand. To witness is not to rely on a secondhand information or a calendar. That is called "belief" or "trust". How can you witness an arbitrarily assigned man-made period of time known as a "month" using your senses ?
1. One cannot provide without having (knowledge, etc???..).
2. We witness a ?month? by having knowledge of it (i.e. the month of fasting).
Not always using physical senses thus even the blind can witness.
3:18 God witnessed that He, L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He), and the angels and those of the knowledge (also give witness)...
3:53 Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing/testifying (to the truth).
Now your turn -- what are 4 sacred full moons?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 16, 2008, 04:48:36 PM
Peace farida,
You still have not answered my question. How can a blind man witness a "shahr" using ears and skin ?
You say that:
1. How can a blind man witness a "shahr" using his ears and skin ?
2. EVERYONE is present during a "shahr". "Those among you who witness" obviously cannot mean "everyone". If everyone present is meant, the phrase would be "when the shahr is witnessed".
Salaam
I am glad that you are asking these questions I was expecting the same from Ayman, but he did not address this.
Just as a blind person is well aware of days months and years and time and are capable of performing most demanding task like Mr Blunket (ex home minister of Uk.) They witness all events by more gifted senses then the seeing posses. Just because Ayman wants to impose his theory he is excluding the blind.. I have given you my reason which I paste again,
This is what you said earlier:
QuoteAs is apparent from the above referenced verses, the skin will bear witness on the Last Day and not this life. The issue of fasting is in the here and now, and not in the hereafter. My question is that how can ears and skin witness a "shahr" ? Does an angel blow a trumpet during "shahr" or does the temperature suddenly jump many degrees ?
What is wrong with my this reply as the blind will be answerable to GOd ? :s
we learn from verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify.
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against himHowever, if you agree with Aymans theroy of excluding the blind, then please give me one valid reason why a person without sight should be excluded ? ???
Quote
You say that:
The war alluded to in 9:81 could have still been during heat if it was in June, just before "shahru ramadhan".
You say that:
Is that a fact ?
I asked bilal something and I will ask you the same. "HAATOO BURHAANAKUM", bring forth your proof if you are truthful!
1. Please prove that ALL historical wars ALWAYS lasted more than a month and back it up with undisputable evidence. Some wars in history have been decisively fought and won within a few days. Conversely, ALL wars do not ALWAYS end in 8 months; some can last years.
The following gives a list of important short wars:
http://listverse.com/politics/top-10-shortest-wars/
Any of those could have been started in May and would have ended before July, and still be "during the heat" if fought in a desert in the Northern Hemisphere ;)
2. Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 9:81 lasted more than a month
.
I paste here 9:81 for you again: Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say:
"Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
What do you understand from "Do not mobilize in the heat."
Does that mean war is ending or due to start? Seeing that there were no tanks or aeroplanes and other advanced equipment; would the prophet mobilize for a quick war before the sacred months; if so well we are doomed then.
But if you think that it could be possible that the prophet would prepare and start a war in May and end in July and start fasting by August with an exhusted army then, by all means, its your understanding but you have no proof of this from the Qur'an.
QuoteSo according to your logic, the believers should never start a war thinking "what if it lasts long enough to encroach on the following restricted shahoor".
Absolutely! This is called pre-planning and, even in this day and age when wars are quick, its planned way before take for example Desert Storm and the ongoing war in Iraq, although it was criticised for lack of foresight.
I hope I have answered your questions. if I left any, please do ask again as I sometime tend to overlook.
:peace:
PS: I hope you are aware that the Americans carefully planned two gulf wars so that the month of Hajj would have passed, as that is when they receive their revenues from the Saudi tourist business. :-X
Truthseeker,
In the case of the eyes that just may be so, whether the eyes turn red when they burn is a very, very, very minor point. Nothing in this world is 100 percent (atleast rarely), but again THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Rubbing of the thighs is another example, and the MAIN meaning is the sensation of significant heat. That is the root meaning of the word, ask Ayman to give you the root definition of the word so you are not confused. And for the root of the word to be 'to be signficantly hot/to feel signficant heat' and then to imply ath redness is apart of the meaning because there are two references to the burning sensation of bodily parts that when irritated, rubbed or inflamed MAY have redness acompanying that burning sensation is conjecture and falsehood beyond measure. Again look up the definition that those dictionaries give and then YOU be honet with yourself and ask if the word means to turn reddish or just has to do with being or feeling significantly hot.
As it concerns the shahr being 30 days in the context of the Quran, how about I put it to you like this:
IN EVERY CONTEXT OF THE QURAN WHERE A FAST CANNOT BE DONE IT IS SUBSTITUTED WITH FEEDING A PERSON PER DAILY FAST MISSED. THE QURANIC EQUATION IS IF FASTING IS TOO DIFICULT FOR YOU, YOU FEED A PERSON PER DAY OF FASTING MISSED.
So if the Quran is saying that I can substitue 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 people, the conclusion is crystal clear and there is no amount of clouding that you can do that will make this unclear. It is a very simple and clear deduction. I'm sorry you are missing it.
Godbless,
Anwar
Ayman,
Quote
The dictionary doesn't say that "strawberries with the logical and normal connotation that these strawberries, and everything else that has strawberries involved, is red". Yet somehow, English-speaking people know that when people mention "strawberry moon" they talk about the moon around the summer solstice because that is when strawberries are harvested and because it is RED. Similarly, ancient Arabs undoubtedly knew that when people mention "scorching full-moon" they talk about the full-moon after the summer solstice because that is when the weather is hot and it is RED.
Now I am not too familiar with strawberry harvesting so I didn't know about the strawberry moon, and I'm a native, American English speaker. But you are speaking of a tradition that has been recorded. I'm sure you looked it up and it is easy to reference in some farmer's almanac. We can all get a source for this. But where is your source that the ancient Arabs referred to the solstice moon in this way? Or is this your conjecture that you are trying to impose on the Arabs of the past without any proof besides trying to imaginatively attatch redness to the meaning of ramada because redness usually accompanies the burning in somene's eyes (reffered to using ramada) or the burning after rubbing one's thighs together (also referred to using the verb ramada) when burning is the real meaning?
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 16, 2008, 05:48:34 PM
1. One cannot provide without having (knowledge, etc???..).
2. We witness a ?month? by having knowledge of it (i.e. the month of fasting).
Not always using physical senses thus even the blind can witness.
3:18 God witnessed that He, L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He), and the angels and those of the knowledge (also give witness)...
Peace,
This is not the same concept at all. In this declaration, The God is BEARING WITNESS to a concept or idea. That's why the this testimony would read:
I bear witness
THAT there is no god but the god.
We obviously can't visually see The God, so we can't witness Him, but we can witness His creation and His glory and supremacy, and this is what be acknowledge. Similarly, we can't physically "witness"/see a month. In most cases, you can't even "bear witness" to a month without the use of a man-made calendar... That's why the ancient Arabs "witnessed" their months based on the sighting of the moon... If this scripture simply meant those who are "present" during the month, you have to ask "PRESENT WHERE?" It wouldn't make sense to view it as all living people, since this would clearly apply to everyone, and that would make the concept of
witnessing "shahru ramadhan" completely redundant...
Peace,
Ahmad
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 16, 2008, 06:44:43 PM
Peace,
This is not the same concept at all. In this declaration, The God is BEARING WITNESS to a concept or idea. That's why the this testimony would read:
I bear witness THAT there is no god but the god.
We obviously can't visually see The God, so we can't witness Him, but we can witness His creation and His glory and supremacy, and this is what be acknowledge. Similarly, we can't physically "witness"/see a month. In most cases, you can't even "bear witness" to a month without the use of a man-made calendar... If this scripture simply meant those who are "present" during the month, you have to ask "PRESENT WHERE?" It wouldn't make sense to view it as all living people, since this would clearly apply to everyone, and that would make the concept of witnessing "shahru ramadhan" completely redundant...
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam.
Really!! I do remember ex UK Home Minister David Blunket using his finger to do the reading which must have included finding out day and date of the documents and that is how he was running UK home affairs beside using his ears and his mouth of course. By the way he is only one example of many talented high profile blind persons.
QuoteThat's why the ancient Arabs "witnessed" their months based on the sighting of the moon...
Proof? And those who did not sight the moon were excluded from giving witness involving the month/date ???
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 04:28:56 PM
Finger prints, DNA sample from your skin can bear witness and are used in this life Now!
This is what I said before:My concluding post said, summed up:
I have strong proofs from the Qur?an to believe that;
?Amongst those who witnessed? the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
Peace,
This is a completely improper view and misinterpretation of this scripture. The scripture says:
"They will say to their skins: 'Why did you bear witness against us?' They will reply, 'The God made us speak up. He is the one who causes everything to speak. He is the One who created you the first time, and now you have been returned to Him.'" (41:21)
This scripture is clearly speaking of our "skins" testifying to wrongdoing, and this speech is caused by The God. Our skins don't speak to us and tell us when "shahru ramadhan" occurs... How can your "skin" witness a month?
Peace,
Ahmad
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 06:57:22 PM
Salaam.
Really!! I do remember ex UK Home Minister David Blunket using his finger to do the reading which must have included finding out day and date of the documents and that is how he was running UK home affairs beside using his ears and his mouth of course. By the way he is only one example do many talented high profile blind persons.
:peace:
Peace,
Okay... :D The ancient Arabs identified the start of their months by the sighting of the moon, mostly the new crescent. So, can this blind man see the new crescent moon when it appears in the sky? If so, he's very talented...
Peace,
Ahmad
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 16, 2008, 07:06:09 PM
Peace,
Okay... :D The ancient Arabs identified the start of their months by the sighting of the moon, mostly the new crescent. So, can this blind man see the new crescent moon when it appears in the sky? If so, he's very talented...
Peace,
Ahmad
There is no requirement for a blind person or anyone else, to physically witness the new crescent, as long as we know its been sighted even via satellite.
QuoteThis scripture is clearly speaking of our "skins" testifying to wrongdoing, and this speech is caused by The God. Our skins don't speak to us and tell us when "shahru ramadhan" occurs... How can your "skin" witness a month?
Where did I suggest that our skin speak in this world, you have missed out on my post ,please read it again, a blind person will be answerable to God for not fasting, not to me or you and this it what I wrote:
but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 05:02:27 PM
Salaam Siki
You are talking about the benefits of fasting- the benefits are huge, and thought provoking;
Here we should consider two aspects :
a. The benefits of fasting - you can discover this as you pay attention and do research on this.
b. The purpose of fasting - We have been given the purpose of fasting from God 2:183 O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.
The purpose of fasting is linked to feeding the poor and empathy. Unless one goes thorough an experience of hunger one cannot feel what it?s like for those who suffer starvation for whatever reason. For further details see:
My detailed answer, the last post on Re: Ramadan
? Reply #72 on: September 12, 2008, 06:08:39 PM ?
this link: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15421.60
:peace:
Farida,
Offcourse , the fasting was decreed for believers due to multiple reasons, and only His infinite wisdom encompasses the true benifits for humans, the reason you mention, could be definnitely a part of it, but even that can not be expeirenced in its true spirit , in a comfortable winter day environment.
Ayman's point regarding the blind being exempted from fasting is definitely a wrong argument.
peace
siki
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 16, 2008, 06:44:43 PM
This is not the same concept at all. In this declaration, The God is BEARING WITNESS to a concept or idea. That's why the this testimony would read:
I bear witness THAT there is no god but the god.
We obviously can't visually see The God, so we can't witness Him, but we can witness His creation and His glory and supremacy, and this is what be acknowledge. Similarly, we can't physically "witness"/see a month. In most cases, you can't even "bear witness" to a month without the use of a man-made calendar... That's why the ancient Arabs "witnessed" their months based on the sighting of the moon... If this scripture simply meant those who are "present" during the month, you have to ask "PRESENT WHERE?" It wouldn't make sense to view it as all living people, since this would clearly apply to everyone, and that would make the concept of witnessing "shahru ramadhan" completely redundant...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace,
The concept/idea of a month:
n.
1. A unit of time corresponding approximately to one cycle of the moon's phases,
I am here and bear witness it?s the month of Ramadan based on the concept/idea of month beginning at waxing crescent of the moon.
Not all living; only those who ?witness? or acknowledge it is the month to fast same as L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He). It?s customary to answer questions posted as well...
2:217 They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred full moons
What are sacred full moons?
2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four full moons
Wait implies time ? what is waiting 4 full moons?
9:2 So travel in the earth, four full moons?
What if he is traveling north to south hemisphere, which full moons to use?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 16, 2008, 03:50:51 PM
3. Please prove from The Quran that the war mentioned in 9:81 was immediately after the restricted shahoor.
The above are enough to collapse your argument ;)
Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)
Hello Mr. TruthSeeker:
As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. :!
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.
Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? :confused:
Quote from: Samia on September 16, 2008, 01:48:22 PM
Salaam belal
It's just not the style of the qur'aan which usually tells us what the punishment was, not how long it lasted.
Peace Samia;
I hope we can agree on this; You said that Sinian is Drought; let me show you that it can't be drought:
So We sent on them: the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, and the blood:manifest signs, yet they remained arrogant, and they were of those people who were Mujrim?n(7-133)
It is a Flood. and Flood is "Tofaan" and not Sinian.
Quote from: Samia on September 16, 2008, 01:48:22 PM
In verses 15-26,28, it is clear that "hama' '" is black clay...from which is derived the noun adam: dust, crust of the earth; also: a black/dark person.
Let me ask a Question; what is the common thing in humans' bodies, regardless of their skin color?
Is it the Red Blood; is it the Red Cell Tissue; is it all their Red Organs? :!
even animals and birds, all are Red from inside.
Thus, the "Clay" would be Red Clay and not Black Clay; hence, Hama is refering to Red and not Black.
Hope we can agree on this one also :)
Peace
Quote from: belalhammad on September 16, 2008, 11:08:57 PM
Peace Samia;
I hope we can agree on this; You said that Sinian is Drought; let me show you that it can't be drought:
So We sent on them: the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, and the blood:manifest signs, yet they remained arrogant, and they were of those people who were Mujrim?n(7-133).
It is a Flood. and Flood is "Tofaan" and not Sinian.
If you start with the verse I quoted (7:130) and continued, to this verse, you will find that it has to be drought, and that it is definitely not (years):
130
And We punished the people of the Pharoh with drought and
shortness in fruit that they might remember131
But when good comes to them, they say (we deserve this) and if evil afflicts them, they ascribe the bad omen to Moses and those with him. Verily, their bad omen is fom/by/with God but most do not know.
132
And they said whatever sign you bring to charm us/work your sorcery on us, we shall never believe you
133 So, we sent on them the flood, the locust, the lice, the frogs and the blood:
Manifest signsQuote from: belalhammad on September 16, 2008, 11:08:57 PM
Let me ask a Question; what is the common thing in humans' bodies, regardless of their skin color?
Is it the Red Blood; is it the Red Cell Tissue; is it all their Red Organs? :!
even animals and birds, all are Red from inside.
Thus, the "Clay" would be Red Clay and not Black Clay; hence, Hama is refering to Red and not Black.
Hope we can agree on this one also :)
Does this mean red organs are created from red clay, and white organs, e;g bones, are created from white clay? Is this the logic you want me to agree with you on? Sounds like a kindergarten class.
Peace Nun de plume,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 16, 2008, 01:30:56 PM
Peace Umm Tariq,
65:4 gives the maximum (3 months) which includes the minimum case.
2:228 And the divorced wait with themselves 3 menstrual cycles
3 menstrual cycles can vary between 2 - 3 months.
65:4?so their term/count (is) three months
3 months is the maximum for 3 menstrual cycles. No contradiction.
Again I thank you for taking the time to share your perspective in a calm, respectful manner. I hope you find me the same. So you want to look at that in 65:4, the god is giving us the maximum case so that these two verses don't have to agree directly? I can't say it's wrong of you to look at it that way but I have to disagree. Since the god informs us that His book is consistent I like to go with what is consistent. I see it as consistent that in the minimum cases, using either the start of a menstrual cycle (something to be seen) and sighting full moons, they equal. Both are used as markers to start a count. Like I said earlier, maybe the key phrase in verse 65:4 is 'if you doubt'. Is this implying that the two cases
are using the same time frames? Is this implying that when a woman doesn't have a menstrual cycle as a marker, she is to use counting by the 'full moons', as markers instead, which like I showed, in the minimum, produce the same results? Which leads back to my initial question, since you are saying that if using 'month' in 65:4 has produced the maximum of the menstrual count but certainly for a woman with no cycle she then is bound by this maximum, why the difference? Why should a woman with no cycle automatically wait more than a woman who does? It's just a question that comes to my mind and that's what gives weight to me accepting using 'full moon' for shahr which is accepted in arabic usage.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 16, 2008, 01:30:56 PM
The verse says wait 4 months and 10 days.
If they go outside each night/day to see 4 full moons they can be 28 days too early.
That is disobedience to a commandment of God.
Too many inconsistencies with full moons -- what are 4 sacred full moons?
9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, from it four (are) sacred...
Again, this is our difference and I already pointed that out. Like you said, "can be 28 days too early", in all minimum counts, the difference between understanding 'shahr' to be 'full moon' or 'month' produces this difference in time. The arabic text says what it says, "arba'a ashhur wa ashran", it's the two viewpoints that don't agree so I can't say it's disobedience. If you say 'month' meaning however many days you see it as then your count would be 4 months and 10 days. If I say 'full moon' using it as a marker just like a menstrual cycle, then I am still counting 4 full moons then and 10 days, so no disobedience, but the total time in the minimum would differ between me and you. Remember, this is what we are trying to ascertain, which is most correct keeping the consistency of the text and not outright violating anything, 'full moon' or 'month'.
The four sacred full moons is the god telling us that we count 4 full moons consecutively in a certain time period, which is restricted/ forbidden, the main question then is
when does that count begin? As of today, I haven't gotten to look at this issue myself (I've noticed the debate going on about it) to see if I agree that the start of this count is shahr ramadan or not so I have no comment on that yet.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 16, 2008, 09:05:26 PM
2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four full moons
Wait implies time ? what is waiting 4 full moons?
9:2 So travel in the earth, four full moons?
I would tell you that the full moons are the markers and the wait is what is in between. This is why I brought up the issue of the menstrual cycle verse. The actual cycle of blood lasts on average between 3-7 or 10 days, I've read this before somewhere, so if your issue is that a full moon is technically only 1 night then how can one wait? It's a 'marker', would a woman only be waiting the time she sees blood, 3-7 days, and then she's not waiting, she's starting and stopping each time? That makes no sense. So that's why I see the consistency in the god using 'full moon' as a marker to start a count just like a menstrual cycle is a marker to start a count. I don't see any inconsistencies with this do you still? We can agree to disagree for the moment as well.
An example for the 4 sacred full moons is this, IF the starting full moon is shahr ramadan, then when this is seen that's full moon no.1, the next, full moon no.2, the next, full moon no.3, and the last is full moon no.4 and that whole time period of restriction is finished. Since you are looking at 'shahr' as 'month' you would count this as 3 months only and say that it should be 4 months but as you can see, it all depends on what 'shahr' means.
I also think it's important to remember that the god's revelations is for all times and peoples. If at a certain time before our present reality some people also had their own concept of 'month' being an already fixed number of days less than 28 or 30 days, let's say 20 days then what? The difference between 'full moon' counts and 'month' would be even greater.
I hope this clarifies more the position I am taking and that I've answered your questions.
Umm Tariq
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 07:17:26 PM
There is no requirement for a blind person or anyone else, to physically witness the new crescent, as long as we know its been sighted even via satellite.
Back during the time when the reading was sent down and composed, the Arabs couldn't sight the moon "via satellite". So, it would be illogical to assume that's what The God was referring to. If His command was for those to abstain who witness/sight the full-moon of blazing heat, then the command would only apply to those who witness it themselves... However, it doesn't say that others cannot abstain as well. In reality, we can abstain/fast whatever days we wish - the reading doesn't place a limit on this. It just tells us which times are obligatory or encouraged...
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 07:17:26 PM
A blind person will be answerable to God for not fasting, not to me or you and this it what I wrote:
but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ‘I did not witness the month of Ramadan’. His skin will then speak out against him
Are you sure that the skin of a blind man will speak out against him for not sighting the moon? :confused: Okay, if you truly want to believe that a blind person can sight the moon himself without any help, then you are free to believe so - your opinion is your own opinion. However, I don't think it's possible for a blind person to physically "sight" the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent moon, not without the help of God Himself. Therefore, he would be unable to sight the "shahru ramadhan" and would be exempt from the fasting, as the scripture confirms. The fact that the scripture says
"those of you who witness/sight the 'shahru ramadhan'" shows plainly that there will be some who can not sight/witness this time period.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Farida,
"If you are honestly trying to learn, then how come you are ignoring excellent points raised by:
progod Anwar, I commend his patience in this thread, he has honestly and unbiasly covered the linguistic approach to many words; that makes no sense to you?
Nun de plume, excellent observation with regards to the summer solstice full moon an impressive calculation,
Belalhammad summed up: Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.
You have learned nothing from these posts Huh?"
I hope your beginning statement isn't an assumption that I am not honestly trying to learn. All you had to say was "how come you are ignoring excellent points" or "why are you". First of all, it is your opinion whether someone's words are excellent are not, that's respected but if in what you can tell from my posts that you THINK or SUSPECT that I am ignoring some posts or not learning anything from any particular ones then this is a false assumption on your part. How would you be able to tell either way since you do not encompass the unseen in knowledge? Either, I missed a post or if I did read it but disagreed then that's disagreeing, not ignoring, like I said, how would you know? If I've learned something beneficial then that is for me anyway. I am glad to be discussing the points I am with Nun directly, that's beneficial for me. Also, I may have a question that comes up after many threads have been posted on it that I may have missed or sometimes it's hard to follow, not all posts are so clear either or a question needs to be asked a different way, you do acknowledge that don't you?
"Maybe you missed this post of mine too:"
I did.
"Maybe you missed this post too which btw. is backed by "THE TRUTH is in the god's book"
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #258 on: September 09, 2008, 01:36:50 PM ?
________________________________________
Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.
41:20 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
41:21 They will say to their SKINs: "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say: "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.
41:22 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do! "
These verses that you have POSTED are THE TRUTH in the god's book (the arabic of them only) but maybe not how you want to use them or interpret them. Previously, Samia had a post about her looking into how the book uses the verb 'shaheda', I also checked out those verses and I agree that in 2:184 it means witnessing as in seeing. Here's why: In these verses that you post you notice the word 'bear' mentioned as well as the key words "against" something. In the arabic it's respectively: "shaheda 'alaihim", "shahadtum 'alainaa" and "shahednaa 'alaakum", the verb is not standing alone in these cases. In 6:130, 7:172, 4:15, 7:37 this verb is also used the same way with the corresponding preposition 'alaa' to mean against something. In verses like 3:18, 3:86 it uses the verb with 'anna' meaning 'that' respectively: "the god bears witness that there is no god except Him..." and "...and they bore witness that the messenger is the truth...". We understand in which way bearing witness is being used here. Now in verses 12:26, 12:81 and 27:49 like in 2:185 we have the verb without 'alaa' or 'anna'.
12:26 ...and a witness witnessed from her family "if his shirt was torn from the front then she was truthful and he is from the liars.
12:81 Return to your father and then say "O our father verily your son stole and we didn't witness except with what we knew and we were not for the unseen protectors/ guarders."
27:49 ...we didn't witness the destruction of his family and verily we are truthful ones.
This is how I understand arranging similar verses should be done. If I want to look at the word 'shaheda' more closely I will look at all of the verses it's used in. Yes, our skins will be made to bear witness/ testify against some on the day of judgement but I don't see how that subject matter is related to witness shahr ramadan. I am looking at how the verb is used so that I can properly ascertain it's usage in 2:185 and this verse doesn't fit since the verb is used differently. In these last verses, how would you understand 'witness'? I clearly see the relation of witnessing something physically. In the first it's about witnessing where a short is torn, next they didn't witness meaning see the brother steal so they can't comment on it and then there's a mention of the unseen as well, and third is clearly physical, witnessing the destruction of his family, seeing it and who did it. But that's me. So noticing that these verses also don't use the previous prepositions as well as in 2:185, and remembering consistency in the god's words and their usage, I understand in 2:185 to be in regards to seeing the full moon, a clear marker like a woman's menstruation.
If you understand shahr' to mean 'month' then of course we can't witness it in the seeing type of way so maybe that's why you brought those verses but it's the usage of the verb that's the problem, the verb is not used in these verses the same way and I would wonder how that can be ignored? You mention the issue of the blind person. I personally do not have a concrete conclusion on that point as of yet but I would like to add these points: if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction? Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started. If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them. Just my observation.
Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death. Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use. This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me. If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day. How do you reconcile that? If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up. Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?
"I repeat what I wrote earlier:
I am truly in search of the truth about the sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this "
Same here, that's what I will be looking into next. However, firstly, I saw that I have to sought out whether when the god uses the word 'shahr' does He mean full moon or month.
Note: In one of the dictionaries I possess, arabic/ english, Al Mawrid by Dr. Rohi Baalbaki, he lists for the first definition of shadeda: to witness, see (personally or for oneself): and secondly, to attend, be present at
This is not as important for me however as it was to arrange the verses and see how the god uses the verb but it shows that there is nothing wrong with such a usage and I see that the verb by itself takes this first meaning.
Umm Tariq
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 05:57:36 AM
So you want to look at that in 65:4, the god is giving us the maximum case so that these two verses don't have to agree directly?
How do they not agree?
The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2:228.
Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event
2:228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles
65:4 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 05:57:36 AM
Like I said earlier, maybe the key phrase in verse 65:4 is 'if you doubt'. Is this implying that the two cases are using the same time frames?
Why should a woman with no cycle automatically wait more than a woman who does?
They wait the maximum amount of any 3 menstrual cycles to make sure!
How much clearer can it get??
Women who menstruate wait three menstrual cycles.
Women who do not or you are unsure wait 3 months.
Women who are pregnant wait until they give birth.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 05:57:36 AM
An example for the 4 sacred full moons is this, IF the starting full moon is shahr ramadan, then when this is seen that's full moon no.1, the next, full moon no.2, the next, full moon no.3, and the last is full moon no.4 and that whole time period of restriction is finished.
4 sacred full moons means four of these are sacred ? idolization?
(http://s4.tinypic.com/mhg2eo.jpg)
4 full moons if taken consecutively equals 3 lunar months!
Full moon 1 ? start?
Full moon 2 ? 1 month
Full moon 3 ? 2 months
Full moon 4 ? 3 months
Total time = 3 months!
12 full moons = 11 months!
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 05:57:36 AM
Since you are looking at 'shahr' as 'month' you would count this as 3 months only
???
4 months is exactly 4 months!
12 months is exactly 12 months!
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 05:57:36 AM
I hope this clarifies more the position I am taking and that I've answered your questions.
No you have not.
9:2 So travel in the earth, four full moons?
First, telling that to someone will sound absurd in any language.
Its August 20th how does one interpret four full moons ? that they have until December 13?
Full Moon Dates 2008August 16 4:18 P.M.
September 15 4:15 A.M.
October 14 3:04 P.M.
November 13 12:19 A.M.
December 12 10:38 A.M.
What if traveling north to south hemisphere, which full moons?
Conclusion: shahr to mean full moon is illogical and nonsensical!
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AMHow do they not agree?
The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2:228.
Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event
Nun, I hope that you can see that you keep repeating fallacious circular arguments. You are trying to prove that "shahr" means "month" starting from the premise that "shahr" means month. This is circular. On the other hand, the way the god uses menstruations and "shahr" in the same EXACT way indicates independently that they are both EVENTS.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AM
2:228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles
65:4 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?
They wait the maximum amount of any 3 menstrual cycles to make sure!
How much clearer can it get??
Ask this to yourself.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AM(1) Women who menstruate wait three menstrual cycles.
(2) Women who do not or you are unsure wait 3 months.
(3) Women who are pregnant wait until they give birth.
(1) and (3) are events and this is indisputable. By assuming that "shahr" is "month' (whatever that means), you make (2) the only odd one out. Moreover, now (2) is dependent on human culture. Your "month" is whatever month people made up: 28, 29, 30, 31, 20 days or whatever.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AM4 sacred full moons means four of these are sacred ? idolization?
What is this "sacred" nonsense? We are told that the meat of the pig is "haram". Does this mean that the meat of the pig is "sacred" or "restricted"? You really need to think before screaming "idolization".
On the other hand, if you insist on falsely taking "haram" to mean "sacred", why didn't you consider your arbitrary "sacred months" idolization? Who is this February or Shaaban or whatever that you want to make "sacred"?
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AM4 full moons if taken consecutively equals 3 lunar months!
Full moon 1 ? start?
Full moon 2 ? 1 month
Full moon 3 ? 2 months
Full moon 4 ? 3 months
Total time = 3 months!
12 full moons = 11 months!
???
4 months is exactly 4 months!
12 months is exactly 12 months!
Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (9:36), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AMNo you have not.
9:2 So travel in the earth, four full moons?
First, telling that to someone will sound absurd in any language.
Tell this to the god, he revealed it. Do you think you know better than the god? According to you he should have told them to travel in Ragab, Shaaban, Ramadan, Shawwal (since this is what "months" means to you) while he would have told Christians to travel in February, March, April and May (this is what "months" means to them)? Now this is absurd. By thinking that you know better than the god, you are making the god's commands culture dependent and based 100% on arbitrary manmade timeframes.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AMIts August 20th how does one interpret four full moons ? that they have until December 13?
Full Moon Dates 2008
August 16 4:18 P.M.
September 15 4:15 A.M.
October 14 3:04 P.M.
November 13 12:19 A.M.
December 12 10:38 A.M.
What if traveling north to south hemisphere, which full moons?
Conclusion: shahr to mean full moon is illogical and nonsensical!
Last I checked, a full-moon in the northern hemisphere is also a full-moon in the southern hemisphere. What is really illogical and nonsensical is that you seem to be implying that a full-moon in the northern hemisphere is seen as a crescent or whatever in the southern hemisphere!
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: progod on September 15, 2008, 02:47:25 PM
Peace,
And what about Hawl ?
Godbless,
Anwar
(حول) means the period in which certain plants attain their complete strength.
It means the time required from planting a vegetable as a seed until it produces fruits.
Hawl means a year concerning the sun in consideration of its changing, and of the revolution of the sun in its places of rising and setting.
Concerning a human حول is the period of pregnancy, which is 40 weeks, 280 days, 10 lunar months, or 10 full moons.
Therefore, حَوْلَيْنِ كَامِلَيْنِ (two complete Hawl) is 20 lunar months or 20 full moons.
The carrying and his weaning is thirty Shahr...46-15
Carrying in Womb + Breastfeeding=30 full moons
Carrying in Womb = 10 full moons
Breastfeeding = 20 full moons
In 31.14 it says ending of breastfeeding is فِي عَامَيْنِ (within two ?am?) It does not say two complete years (am) as is said in 46.15 two complete hawl.
Peace.
The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright".
As for the meaning of ramadhan: Lane?s Arabic English Lexicon says.
رَمِضْتُ لَهُ
رَمِضْتُ مِنَ الأَمْرِ
اِرْتَمَضْتُ
Means: I was distressed and disquieted because of the thing or I grieved for it
اِرْتَمَض لِفُلانٍ
Means: He grieve for such a one
Ramadhan can mean ?mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning? besides its meaning of ?scorching heat?.
In verses 25 to 29 of Sura Maryam, when Maryam pledged to the Almighty a ?SAUMAN? did she witnessed ?shahr ramadan??
She was blamed of committing indecency by her people. She witnessed the obvious anger of her people and she witnessed her obvious feelings of sadness and distress. She had to SELF DISCIPLINE herself before she meets her people.
She was righteous in the way she dealt with her people.
2.183 ?O you who believe, SIYAM has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be RIGHTEOUS?.
The main purpose of SIYAM is to become RIGHTEOUS.
The Saum of Maryam is an example for us because she is one of those before us.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2008, 03:06:25 PM
Peace Siki,
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night we have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and we have explained all things in detail.
The ONLY possible way to use "night and day" to know the number of years is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice).
Of course, the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the scorching full-moon after the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
Just for the time being if you forget ?the etymology of "
shahr ramadan" points to the scorching full-moon after the summer solstice? instead pay attention to the term "Sinian" used in verse 17:12 and invite all to discuss the link between ...
the night and the day as two signs.. sinian, and and the calculation we may learn what we know not. :hmm
: وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِتَبْتَغُوا فَضْلا مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُوا عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلا
:peace:
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2008, 08:42:03 PM
Farida,
Offcourse , the fasting was decreed for believers due to multiple reasons, and only His infinite wisdom encompasses the true benifits for humans, the reason you mention, could be definnitely a part of it, but even that can not be expeirenced in its true spirit , in a comfortable winter day environment.
Ayman's point regarding the blind being exempted from fasting is definitely a wrong argument.
peace
siki
Salaam Siki
Exactly!!. and for some winter may be the time of comfort for others its a nightmare:
Quote from: Rajah on September 10, 2008, 10:56:05 PM
Hello all,
Well it makes sense that ramadan should start earlier as it it were to cross over to the cooler months nearing winter, it would be very dangerous. For the cooler months we need food (thermogenic-yes we need food all year round too) and shelter and maybe the skins/furs of animals as extra clothings to keep warm. Well one should remember quran was revealed about 1200 years ago and the message had remained the same and also generations way way way before that also would have had such a similar Book Of God for their use. Of course the state of things now is quite different in terms in clothing etc, but there's no guarantee.
BUT now, we need proof. Hopefully anyone of us would be able to come up with the answer.
salaam.....
As I understand:
The purpose of fasting is not to punish us but to make us experience what if feels like, in all seasons, to be without food and water. When one experiences thirst and hunger and keeps in mind that the reason we are commanded to do it is to make us fearing and obeying( mutaqeenn) the result will be that we develop empathy and humility and a sense of responsibility to act as true trustees of this world.
:peace:
Peace nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 16, 2008, 05:48:34 PM
Peace truthseeker11,
1. One cannot provide without having (knowledge, etc???..).
2. We witness a ?month? by having knowledge of it (i.e. the month of fasting).
Not always using physical senses thus even the blind can witness.
3:18 God witnessed that He, L? il?ha illa Huwa (there is no God except He), and the angels and those of the knowledge (also give witness)...
3:53 Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing/testifying (to the truth).
Now your turn -- what are 4 sacred full moons?
You are again confusing "to testify/to bear witness" with "to witness". The discussion cannot proceed any further until you educate yourself on the difference.
My question once again:
How do you witness/have firsthand knowledge through your senses of a man-made arbitrary time period known as a "month" ?
I am not talking about trusting/believing someone or secondhand knowledge because that is not witnessing.
Quote from: nunI am here and bear witness it?s the month of Ramadan based on the concept/idea of month beginning at waxing crescent of the moon.
Please provide evidence from The Quran for the above statement.
1. Why waxing crescent? The Quran says "crescents". Nowhere it says "waxing crescent".
2. Which crescent out of the 24-26 crescents is to be used as a marker to start fasting?
If you cannot provide evidence of your answers from The Quran then I am afraid I cannot carry on this discussion any further.
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 17, 2008, 06:20:19 AM
Peace Farida,
Back during the time when the reading was sent down and composed, the Arabs couldn't sight the moon "via satellite". So, it would be illogical to assume that's what The God was referring to. If His command was for those to abstain who witness/sight the full-moon of blazing heat, then the command would only apply to those who witness it themselves... However, it doesn't say that others cannot abstain as well. In reality, we can abstain/fast whatever days we wish - the reading doesn't place a limit on this. It just tells us which times are obligatory or encouraged...
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam Ahmad,
As I understand we are clearly told to use moon/new crescent moon, as a singn to mark the month, not some sort of goddess we need to see before the ritual of fasting.
The Qur?an explains itself so please read surh 2:185 carefully, taking into consideration that the surah
first include those who witness the moon and than goes on to
exclude those who do not come under this category; those who are on a journey and any one ill, from what I understand it is referring to those; of sound mind, who witness the month in normal circumstances i.e. at home and able to abstain due to good health.
QuoteAre you sure that the skin of a blind man will speak out against him for not sighting the moon? :confused: Okay, if you truly want to believe that a blind person can sight the moon himself without any help, then you are free to believe so - your opinion is your own opinion. However, I don't think it's possible for a blind person to physically "sight" the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent moon, not without the help of God Himself. Therefore, he would be unable to sight the "shahru ramadhan" and would be exempt from the fasting, as the scripture confirms. The fact that the scripture says "those of you who witness/sight the 'shahru ramadhan'" shows plainly that there will be some who can not sight/witness this time period.
:brickwall: :brickwall: when did I claim a blind man sighting the moon ???
Please read carefully:
but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him :peace:
Peace farida,
Quote from: farida on September 16, 2008, 05:51:24 PM
Salaam
I am glad that you are asking these questions I was expecting the same from Ayman, but he did not address this.
Just as a blind person is well aware of days months and years and time and are capable of performing most demanding task like Mr Blunket (ex home minister of Uk.) They witness all events by more gifted senses then the seeing posses. Just because Ayman wants to impose his theory he is excluding the blind.. I have given you my reason which I paste again,
This is what you said earlier:What is wrong with my this reply as the blind will be answerable to GOd ? :s we learn from verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify.
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him
However, if you agree with Aymans theroy of excluding the blind, then please give me one valid reason why a person without sight should be excluded ? ???
.
I paste here 9:81 for you again: Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
What do you understand from "Do not mobilize in the heat."
Does that mean war is ending or due to start? Seeing that there were no tanks or aeroplanes and other advanced equipment; would the prophet mobilize for a quick war before the sacred months; if so well we are doomed then.
But if you think that it could be possible that the prophet would prepare and start a war in May and end in July and start fasting by August with an exhusted army then, by all means, its your understanding but you have no proof of this from the Qur'an.
Absolutely! This is called pre-planning and, even in this day and age when wars are quick, its planned way before take for example Desert Storm and the ongoing war in Iraq, although it was criticised for lack of foresight.
I hope I have answered your questions. if I left any, please do ask again as I sometime tend to overlook.
:peace:
PS: I hope you are aware that the Americans carefully planned two gulf wars so that the month of Hajj would have passed, as that is when they receive their revenues from the Saudi tourist business. :-X
1. You still have not answered my question:
In this life, here and now, how can a blind man witness a "shahr" by his ears or skin ? I am afraid that if you cannot answer this question then it is no use pursuing this particular issue.
2. If believers are attacked and they have to fight back, should they stop as soon as the restricted shahoor begin and let themselves be slaughtered by the attacking enemy ? The attack on the believers can happen any time and is not a "scheduled" event, booked in advance by the enemies. The enemies can start a war and attack the believers one day before the restricted shahoor. What then ? Such a war can easily last through all the restricted shahoor :!
progod,
Quote from: progod on September 16, 2008, 06:38:56 PM
Truthseeker,
In the case of the eyes that just may be so, whether the eyes turn red when they burn is a very, very, very minor point. Nothing in this world is 100 percent (atleast rarely), but again THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Rubbing of the thighs is another example, and the MAIN meaning is the sensation of significant heat. That is the root meaning of the word, ask Ayman to give you the root definition of the word so you are not confused. And for the root of the word to be 'to be signficantly hot/to feel signficant heat' and then to imply ath redness is apart of the meaning because there are two references to the burning sensation of bodily parts that when irritated, rubbed or inflamed MAY have redness acompanying that burning sensation is conjecture and falsehood beyond measure. Again look up the definition that those dictionaries give and then YOU be honet with yourself and ask if the word means to turn reddish or just has to do with being or feeling significantly hot.
As it concerns the shahr being 30 days in the context of the Quran, how about I put it to you like this:
IN EVERY CONTEXT OF THE QURAN WHERE A FAST CANNOT BE DONE IT IS SUBSTITUTED WITH FEEDING A PERSON PER DAILY FAST MISSED. THE QURANIC EQUATION IS IF FASTING IS TOO DIFICULT FOR YOU, YOU FEED A PERSON PER DAY OF FASTING MISSED.
So if the Quran is saying that I can substitue 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 people, the conclusion is crystal clear and there is no amount of clouding that you can do that will make this unclear. It is a very simple and clear deduction. I'm sorry you are missing it.
Godbless,
Anwar
1. Rubbing of thighs produces the same acute inflammatory reaction, and redness is ALWAYS a part of that if the rubbing is strong enough to produce burning sensation. Significant heat is IMPOSSIBLE without the accompanying redness due to increased blood flow.
2. Thank you for switching to "substitution" for feeding the people and fasting which is the right word instead of "expiation" in the context of 58:3-4 and 5:89 and not misleading people anymore.
Substitution works both ways and the things which are alternative substitutes are EQUIVALENT,
no matter what the order. 5:89 talks about substituting fasting 3 days for feeding 10 people which gives a ratio of 1:3.33 using the same "substitution" or "equivalence" logic and thus your deduction that one day of fasting is always equivalent to feeding one person according to The Quran is a false statement.
Peace
Hello belal,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 16, 2008, 10:19:17 PM
Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)
Hello Mr. TruthSeeker:
As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. :!
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.
Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? :confused:
1. I am not stressed about ayman; you are the one making that an issue. I am trying to address YOUR theory to see if there is any truth to it. Ayman or anyone else are perfectly capable of answering for themselves and I have nothing to do with them. So please get rid of this preoccupation and obsession with ayman. I hope he is not in your dreams too!
2. You are addressing me as Mr. Why are you assuming I am a male? Is it male chauvinism? Or is it conjecture?
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
3. When the enemies break their treaty with the believers it is an act of aggression by the enemies and is an attack on the believers. So the war in the first part of chapter 9 is not an aggressive war but a defensive war by the believers. This is proven from The Quran itself:
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger,
especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
4. Just because there is a war mentioned in 9:81 does not mean it is the same war that is being ordered in the first part of chapter 9. Please give the Quranic proof that they are the same wars.
I would request you to focus on the discussion instead of making personal remarks :peace:
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 07:46:45 AM
Peace Farida,
I hope your beginning statement isn't an assumption that I am not honestly trying to learn. All you had to say was "how come you are ignoring excellent points" or "why are you". First of all, it is your opinion whether someone's words are excellent are not, that's respected but if in what you can tell from my posts that you THINK or SUSPECT that I am ignoring some posts or not learning anything from any particular ones then this is a false assumption on your part. How would you be able to tell either way since you do not encompass the unseen in knowledge? Either, I missed a post or if I did read it but disagreed then that's disagreeing, not ignoring, like I said, how would you know? If I've learned something beneficial then that is for me anyway. I am glad to be discussing the points I am with Nun directly, that's beneficial for me. Also, I may have a question that comes up after many threads have been posted on it that I may have missed or sometimes it's hard to follow, not all posts are so clear either or a question needs to be asked a different way, you do acknowledge that don't you?
Peace Umm Tariq
Please why are you speculating about what I "THINK or SUSPECT " O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion (speculation) , indeed some suspicions are sins. .... (49-12) I on the other hand don?t care much about the opinion you have about me, what matters most to me is the judgment of my creator. I f you want to keep on making my post personal then I would simply use this :ignore:
QuoteThese verses that you have POSTED are THE TRUTH in the god's book (the arabic of them only) but maybe not how you want to use them or interpret them. Previously, Samia had a post about her looking into how the book uses the verb 'shaheda', I also checked out those verses and I agree that in 2:184 it means witnessing as in seeing. Here's why: In these verses that you post you notice the word 'bear' mentioned as well as the key words "against" something. In the arabic it's respectively: "shaheda 'alaihim", "shahadtum 'alainaa" and "shahednaa 'alaakum", the verb is not standing alone in these cases. In 6:130, 7:172, 4:15, 7:37 this verb is also used the same way with the corresponding preposition 'alaa' to mean against something. In verses like 3:18, 3:86 it uses the verb with 'anna' meaning 'that' respectively: "the god bears witness that there is no god except Him..." and "...and they bore witness that the messenger is the truth...". We understand in which way bearing witness is being used here. Now in verses 12:26, 12:81 and 27:49 like in 2:185 we have the verb without 'alaa' or 'anna'.
12:26 ...and a witness witnessed from her family "if his shirt was torn from the front then she was truthful and he is from the liars.
12:81 Return to your father and then say "O our father verily your son stole and we didn't witness except with what we knew and we were not for the unseen protectors/ guarders."
27:49 ...we didn't witness the destruction of his family and verily we are truthful ones.
This is how I understand arranging similar verses should be done. If I want to look at the word 'shaheda' more closely I will look at all of the verses it's used in. Yes, our skins will be made to bear witness/ testify against some on the day of judgement but I don't see how that subject matter is related to witness shahr ramadan. I am looking at how the verb is used so that I can properly ascertain it's usage in 2:185 and this verse doesn't fit since the verb is used differently. In these last verses, how would you understand 'witness'? I clearly see the relation of witnessing something physically. In the first it's about witnessing where a short is torn, next they didn't witness meaning see the brother steal so they can't comment on it and then there's a mention of the unseen as well, and third is clearly physical, witnessing the destruction of his family, seeing it and who did it. But that's me. So noticing that these verses also don't use the previous prepositions as well as in 2:185, and remembering consistency in the god's words and their usage, I understand in 2:185 to be in regards to seeing the full moon, a clear marker like a woman's menstruation.
If you understand shahr' to mean 'month' then of course we can't witness it in the seeing type of way so maybe that's why you brought those verses but it's the usage of the verb that's the problem, the verb is not used in these verses the same way and I would wonder how that can be ignored?
Arabic is not my native language, I depend on the translations available, and I have explained in my post above to Ahmad how I understand 2:185, if you like you can educate me on that as well.
Quote
You mention the issue of the blind person. I personally do not have a concrete conclusion on that point as of yet but I would like to add these points: if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction? Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started. If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them. Just my observation.
Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death. Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use. This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me. If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day. How do you reconcile that? If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up. Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?
I would be looking forward to your concrete conclusion on the issue of the blind person.
To me seeing moon physically by each and everyone is not a requirement as long as it?s been acknowledged that the moon been sighted as a mark for the start of the month.
Sun /Moon is not a god/goddess one must see before one's journey to become muta?qeen.
QuoteSame here, that's what I will be looking into next. However, firstly, I saw that I have to sought out whether when the god uses the word 'shahr' does He mean full moon or month.
Note: In one of the dictionaries I possess, arabic/ english, Al Mawrid by Dr. Rohi Baalbaki, he lists for the first definition of shadeda: to witness, see (personally or for oneself): and secondly, to attend, be present at
This is not as important for me however as it was to arrange the verses and see how the god uses the verb but it shows that there is nothing wrong with such a usage and I see that the verb by itself takes this first meaning.
I hope while soughting out
whether when the god uses the word 'shahr' does He mean full moon or month. you would also look into surah 9:81 especially.
My replies are short but thank you for taking time on my post.
:peace:
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 17, 2008, 05:57:36 AMSo you want to look at that in 65:4, the god is giving us the maximum case so that these two verses don't have to agree directly? I can't say it's wrong of you to look at it that way but I have to disagree. Since the god informs us that His book is consistent I like to go with what is consistent. I see it as consistent that in the minimum cases, using either the start of a menstrual cycle (something to be seen) and sighting full moons, they equal. Both are used as markers to start a count. Like I said earlier, maybe the key phrase in verse 65:4 is 'if you doubt'. Is this implying that the two cases are using the same time frames? Is this implying that when a woman doesn't have a menstrual cycle as a marker, she is to use counting by the 'full moons', as markers instead, which like I showed, in the minimum, produce the same results? Which leads back to my initial question, since you are saying that if using 'month' in 65:4 has produced the maximum of the menstrual count but certainly for a woman with no cycle she then is bound by this maximum, why the difference? Why should a woman with no cycle automatically wait more than a woman who does? It's just a question that comes to my mind and that's what gives weight to me accepting using 'full moon' for shahr which is accepted in arabic usage.
I would tell you that the full moons are the markers and the wait is what is in between. This is why I brought up the issue of the menstrual cycle verse. The actual cycle of blood lasts on average between 3-7 or 10 days, I've read this before somewhere, so if your issue is that a full moon is technically only 1 night then how can one wait? It's a 'marker', would a woman only be waiting the time she sees blood, 3-7 days, and then she's not waiting, she's starting and stopping each time? That makes no sense. So that's why I see the consistency in the god using 'full moon' as a marker to start a count just like a menstrual cycle is a marker to start a count. I don't see any inconsistencies with this do you still? We can agree to disagree for the moment as well.
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Thank you, very nice points.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 01:06:01 PM
Peace farida,
1. You still have not answered my question:
In this life, here and now, how can a blind man witness a "shahr" by his ears or skin ? I am afraid that if you cannot answer this question then it is no use pursuing this particular issue.
Salaam
News of sighting using ears and reading about the news using fingers and also by being alive in the atmosphere of that time.
Quote2. If believers are attacked and they have to fight back, should they stop as soon as the restricted shahoor begin and let themselves be slaughtered by the attacking enemy ? The attack on the believers can happen any time and is not a "scheduled" event, booked in advance by the enemies. The enemies can start a war and attack the believers one day before the restricted shahoor. What then ? Such a war can easily last through all the restricted shahoor :!
I do not see the war in question as a defensive war unless you can prove it from the great reading.
:peace:
Peace farida,
Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 01:54:31 PM
Salaam
News of sighting using ears and reading about the news using fingers and also by being alive in the atmosphere of that time.
I do not see the war in question as a defensive war unless you can prove it from the great reading.
:peace:
1. You are confusing "witnessing" with "trusting/believing". News can be wrong too. The blind man will be trusting/believing someone else who is giving or printing the news and that cannot be classified as witnessing. :nope:
2. 9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger,
especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 02:12:36 PM
Peace farida,
1. You are confusing "witnessing" with "trusting/believing". News can be wrong too. The blind man will be trusting/believing someone else who is giving or printing the news and that cannot be classified as witnessing. :nope:
2. 9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
No I am not confusing anything you are the confused one and underestimate blind people's judgment. There are many sighted persons who fall prey to wrong guidance, being much more gullible than the blind. In your opinion media can only fool the blind :'(
Please don't play politics by asking irrelevant general questions, instead provide proof from the Qur'an that the war in 9:81 was a defensive war. If you read sura 9 it is quite obvious that it was a process over months that led to this war. And even if we take 9:81 on its own it is not a defensive war.
9:2
Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
:peace:
Peace farida,
Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 03:46:30 PM
No I am not confusing anything you are the confused one and underestimate blind people's judgment. There are many sighted persons who fall prey to wrong guidance, being much more gullible than the blind. In your opinion media can only fool the blind :'(
Please don't play politics by asking irrelevant general questions, instead provide proof from the Qur'an that the war in 9:81 was a defensive war. If you read sura 9 it is quite obvious that it was a process over months that led to this war. And even if we take 9:81 on its own it is not a defensive war.
:peace:
1. Let's stick to facts and not get personal. I did not play politics by asking irrelevant general questions. Witnessing/"shahida" is not trusting/believing/"aamana". When a blind man hears news given by someone else or reads news printed by someone else by fingers, he is not "witnessing"/"shahida", but "trusting"/"believing"/"aamana". This is undisputable.
2. I provided the Quranic proof and you ignored it. There is no point in discussing any further with someone who ignores clear Quranic aayaat. Here it is once again:
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger,
especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
I am not going to repeat myself again. Peace out and thank you for the discussion. You can have the last word and knock yourself out!
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 03:54:37 PM
Peace farida,
1. Let's stick to facts and not get personal. I did not play politics by asking irrelevant general questions. Witnessing/"shahida" is not trusting/believing/"aamana". When a blind man hears news given by someone else or reads news printed by someone else by fingers, he is not "witnessing"/"shahida", but "trusting"/"believing"/"aamana". This is undisputable.
2. I provided the Quranic proof and you ignored it. There is no point in discussing any further with someone who ignores clear Quranic aayaat. Here it is once again:
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
I am not going to repeat myself again. Peace out and thank you for the discussion. You can have the last word and knock yourself out!
Salaam
The skin is capable of witnessing, merely by its presence in the month. Here are two proofs; now you give me a proof that no war was waged in the sacred months.
9:2 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:12 If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism - you are no longer bound by your covenant with them - that they may
Peace everyone,
First restricted full moon: End of June-July variation (the scorching full-moon)
Second restricted full-moon: July-August variation
Third restricted full-moon: August-September variation
Fourth restricted full-moon: September-October variation
Now let's see the average maximum temperatures in the south-west area of Saudi Arabia in September and October (which will be immediately following the four restricted full-moons):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002760
Average max temp September: 36 degrees C (96 degrees F) Discomfort: Extreme
Average max temp October: 35 degrees C (95 degrees F) Discomfort: Extreme
Also see the following:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/country_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002770
Excerpt from above:
"Any visitor to the states of the Arabian peninsula should be prepared for very hot conditions between May and October."
See the following for Yanbu airport temperatures, which is near Medina:
http://www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#weather
http://www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#month-by-month
Look at the September and October temperatures.
Excerpt from above:
"Weather at Yanbu Airport in October
In October the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a very hot 36?C (96?F), with very high heat and humidity. On average only 1 mm (0.1 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during October, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month. There are usually 10 hours of bright sunshine each day, which represents 90% of daylight hours. Average sea temperature around Yanbu Airport in October is a warm 29?C (84?F)."
Now notice the consistency with 9:81:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 12:57:18 PM
:brickwall: :brickwall: when did I claim a blind man sighting the moon ???
Please read carefully: but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him
If "shahru ramadhan" is the "month of Ramadhan", and you're saying that a month is witnessed by sighting the new crescent moon, then in order for someone to witness/sight the month, he would have to physically sight the new crescent moon. Either way, "ramadhan" is identified by the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent... So, if a blind man said to The God, "I did not witness/sight the 'shahr (moon) of ramadhan'," he would be telling the truth. There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind...
Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 04:09:20 PM
The skin is capable of witnessing, merely by its presence in the month.
This is incorrect, especially in the case of "shahru ramadhan". If the skin witnessed the "month", then none of us would need calendars... :laugh: It makes no sense for the reading to address the people who witness "shahru ramadhan" if this applies to everyone alive - that would make the issue completely redundant. It would say something more like:
"All of you shall fast/abstain shahru ramadhan..."
It specifically says "shahru ramadhan" is for those who witness it, so it's obviously not pertaining to everyone - there will obviously be LIVING people who will not witness it...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2008, 09:40:59 AM
Nun, I hope that you can see that you keep repeating fallacious circular arguments. You are trying to prove that "shahr" means "month" starting from the premise that "shahr" means month. This is circular.
No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2008, 09:40:59 AM
What is this "sacred" nonsense?
You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?
Definition please -- there are four of them right?
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2008, 09:40:59 AM
Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (9:36), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?
Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2008, 09:40:59 AM
Tell this to the god, he revealed it. Do you think you know better than the god?
NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.
Ego dude -- kill it!
Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.
I'm out this thread...
28:55 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said: "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."
Truthseeker (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you a Truthblocker),
Quote1. Rubbing of thighs produces the same acute inflammatory reaction, and redness is ALWAYS a part of that if the rubbing is strong enough to produce burning sensation. Significant heat is IMPOSSIBLE without the accompanying redness due to increased blood flow.
That depends on how dark your thighs are, but in any case since WHEN does the word Burning = redness? it doesn't. And neither does ramada equal hamira/hamura or Ihmarra. So stop side stepping the issue. I know people who's thighs will NEVER turn red, despite the local blood flow. Inflamation in very dark areas of the body often turn darker and even purple in some people. No redness. That would incude the Akhdar (dark brown Arabs) and the aswad (black) Arabs. I know you will tell me that akhdar is green but it also stood for the dark brown Arabs who weren't literally the color black as you will find among some Arabs and Africans who are almost black.
Quote2. Thank you for switching to "substitution" for feeding the people and fasting which is the right word instead of "expiation" in the context of 58:3-4 and 5:89 and not misleading people anymore. Substitution works both ways and the things which are alternative substitutes are EQUIVALENT, no matter what the order. 5:89 talks about substituting fasting 3 days for feeding 10 people which gives a ratio of 1:3.33 using the same "substitution" or "equivalence" logic and thus your deduction that one day of fasting is always equivalent to feeding one person according to The Quran is a false statement.
About the word choice, expiation vs. subsitution, WHATEVER. You are picking at straws here. I am misleading no one. You are misleading yourself. And this is why you are wrong. Feeding individuals for each day of fasting you miss is a substitution AND an expiation for the fast missed. I can't believe you are arguing this and that you believe yourself. I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SUBSTITUTION AND EXPIATION OF A DAILY FAST. in 5:89 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the last resort. But in 58:3-4 and in al-baqarah we are talking about the
expiatory substitution (I combined the two terms to make it more understandable to you) of fasting. So you are spreading falseness and the confusion here by unjustly knitpicking at words and not understanding the meanings behind these words. And this is English!
To make up for a day of fasting missed you feed 1 person. In the context of 5:89 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the very last resort. Therfore the Quran DOES equate the feeding of 1 indvidual to make up for missing one daily fast, and 2 months to 60 daily fasts by saying we make up for 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 individuals. If you want to try confuse the people here and yourself more, feel free. But the truth has been spoken here and whoever will try to confuse, shall try to confuse.
Godbless,
Anwar
I'm glad Nun de Plume sees through this mess. It's a shame no matter how clearly false this is, Ayman keeps trying to push this.
Just like Nun de Plume said:
Quote1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
That's not a year, now matter how many times you try to push it:
But Ayman says:
QuoteYet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (9:36), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?
Let's repeat that cold truth again just in case you didn't get it:
Quote1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
That is not even close to a solar year of 365 days. Not only do you have 41 days left you have a 13th full moon left and 11 days left before you get to 365. 13 shahr = unquranic and 41 days left = not even close to a solar year.
QuoteQuote from: ayman on Today at 02:40:59 AM
Nun, I hope that you can see that you keep repeating fallacious circular arguments. You are trying to prove that "shahr" means "month" starting from the premise that "shahr" means month. This is circular.
No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.
Quote from: ayman on Today at 02:40:59 AM
What is this "sacred" nonsense?
You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?
Definition please -- there are four of them right?
Quote from: ayman on Today at 02:40:59 AM
Yet somehow we can count exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year and maintain the seasons in sync with the moon cycle (9:36), while we can't count 12 months in any year. Do you think it is magic?
Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
Quote from: ayman on Today at 02:40:59 AM
Tell this to the god, he revealed it. Do you think you know better than the god?
NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.
Ego dude -- kill it!
Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.
I'm out this thread...
28:55 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said: "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."
Godbless,
Anwar
progod (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you antigod),
Quote from: progod on September 17, 2008, 05:21:22 PM
Truthseeker (I hate calling you this because so far it has not seemed to be a true description, I'd call you a Truthblocker),
That depends on how dark your thighs are, but in any case since WHEN does the word Burning = redness? it doesn't. And neither does ramada equal hamira/hamura or Ihmarra. So stop side stepping the issue. I know people who's thighs will NEVER turn red, despite the local blood flow. Inflamation in very dark areas of the body often turn darker and even purple in some people. No redness. That would incude the Akhdar (dark brown Arabs) and the aswad (black) Arabs. I know you will tell me that akhdar is green but it also stood for the dark brown Arabs who weren't literally the color black as you will find among some Arabs and Africans who are almost black.
About the word choice, expiation vs. subsitution, WHATEVER. You are picking at straws here. I am misleading no one. You are misleading yourself. And this is why you are wrong. Feeding individuals for each day of fasting you miss is a substitution AND an expiation for the fast missed. I can't believe you are arguing this and that you believe yourself. I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SUBSTITUTION AND EXPIATION OF A DAILY FAST. in 5:89 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the last resort. But in 58:3-4 and in al-baqarah we are talking about the expiatory substitution (I combined the two terms to make it more understandable to you) of fasting. So you are spreading falseness and the confusion here by unjustly knitpicking at words and not understanding the meanings behind these words. And this is English!
To make up for a day of fasting missed you feed 1 person. In the context of 5:89 you cannot make up for the fast because it is the very last resort. Therfore the Quran DOES equate the feeding of 1 indvidual to make up for missing one daily fast, and 2 months to 60 daily fasts by saying we make up for 2 months of fasting by feeding 60 individuals. If you want to try confuse the people here and yourself more, feel free. But the truth has been spoken here and whoever will try to confuse, shall try to confuse.
Godbless,
Anwar
Back to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?
In 58:3-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.
In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.
Keep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.
When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.
QuoteBack to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?
Hmm, truthblocker and antigod? Well I wouldn't call you antigod. But you certainly are blocking truth here. Hence the epithet. But I naturally suppose that you are just as progod as I am although it seems you have some trouble with blocking some truths. Like the following.
QuoteIn 58:3-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.
I'm not distorting God's clear verses in any way. The verse in chapt. 2 and these make it crystal clear that if you want to expiate a fast except where fasting is the last resort (for whatever reason the fast is: God's command to just fast or if the fast is to expiate a sin) you feed a person per daily fast you miss. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry for you.
Quote
In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.
If you can't see red, then it doesn't turn red. Seems you don't know much about darker people.
QuoteKeep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.
Not at all. The evidence is factual, but you are kntipicking on words and I am showing you the logic of the matter.
Quote
When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.
That is your decision. All I know is that as it concerned these topic you were absolutely blocking the truth, and hence I felt the need to call you on it. Of course you will not thin that that is the case (or atleast you won't admit it) but when it is clear in the Quran that subsituting or expiating a duty to fast is done by feeding individuals per daily fast missed and hence the Quran equates 2 months of fasting to 60 days worth of it and you try to deny that by twisting a verse where fasting is the very last option and there is no expiating it if the previous options are not feasible, well that is deny factual evidence, and I don't have to say so for it to be so.
I don't wish for you to leave the conversation because you felt I was trying to maliciously insult you. Whether you took it as that or not, it was not malicioius, on that I swear. But you were being unjust inflexible and refusing to see it from my position to even being to illustrate the possible correctness of yours. The only way to to prove me wrong was to completely ignore my logic and that is unjust and not the way of a true truthseeker. I made room for your knitpicking of words by including others to help you get past your rigid perceptions of these words but you weren't having it. And when someone refuses to see the bigger picture like that, it is not truth seeking, it is truth blocking to themselves and to others.
Honestly it seemed to me that you were just defending Ayman from what you may have seen as unjust criticism. That may not be true, but the above points still remain.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 04:39:11 PM
Peace everyone,
"Weather at Yanbu Airport in October
In October the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a very hot 36?C (96?F), with very high heat and humidity. On average only 1 mm (0.1 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during October, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month. There are usually 10 hours of bright sunshine each day, which represents 90% of daylight hours. Average sea temperature around Yanbu Airport in October is a warm 29?C (84?F)."
Now notice the consistency with 9:81:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.
Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer weather in November. ???
:peace:
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 17, 2008, 04:54:15 PM
Peace Farida,
If "shahru ramadhan" is the "month of Ramadhan", and you're saying that a month is witnessed by sighting the new crescent moon, then in order for someone to witness/sight the month, he would have to physically sight the new crescent moon. Either way, "ramadhan" is identified by the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent... So, if a blind man said to The God, "I did not witness/sight the 'shahr (moon) of ramadhan'," he would be telling the truth. There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind...
This is incorrect, especially in the case of "shahru ramadhan". If the skin witnessed the "month", then none of us would need calendars... :laugh: It makes no sense for the reading to address the people who witness "shahru ramadhan" if this applies to everyone alive - that would make the issue completely redundant. It would say something more like:
"All of you shall fast/abstain shahru ramadhan..."
It specifically says "shahru ramadhan" is for those who witness it, so it's obviously not pertaining to everyone - there will obviously be LIVING people who will not witness it...
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam Ahmad
Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.
I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where by hook or by crook you would make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 06:12:16 PM
Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer weather in November. ???
:peace:
Peace everyone;
Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
:peace:
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 05:17:33 PM
Peace Ayman,
No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.
You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?
Definition please -- there are four of them right?
Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.
Ego dude -- kill it!
Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.
I'm out this thread...
28:55 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said: "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."
May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.
Peace belal, everyone,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 17, 2008, 07:10:53 PM
Peace everyone;
Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
:peace:
May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.
Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.
39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 9:81 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.
I am trying to cover all possibilities. I don't think it is the same war, but EVEN IF IT IS, I have shown that it is possible to have hot weather after the restricted shahoor even if shahru ramadhan started in July. I referenced temperatures of Yanbu which is very close to Medina and has similar temperatures. Actually The Quran does not say where the war/wars mentioned in chapter 9 were fought. It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.
Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September:
http://www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1
Next month, this link will show the temperatures for October and then you will be able to see for yourself how hot it is in October in Medina. Even November is quite hot in that area.
See the following again:
http://www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#weather
http://www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#month-by-month
"Weather at Yanbu Airport in November
In November the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a hot 32?C (89?F), with high heat and humidity. On average only 19 mm (0.7 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during November, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month."Where is the "nice November weather" as mentioned by farida?
It does not matter what the November weather was because even if the last restricted full-moon was in October and even if the war of 9:81 was immediately after that full-moon, it would still have been VERY HOT at that time according to all the factual data I have presented.
There are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period:
1. The war of 9:81 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
2. The war of 9:81 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
3. The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat:
a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151
b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 9:13.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 9:13)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE
As you can see, shahru ramadhan can be in the scorching heat in all possible scenarios, with no contradiction between 9:1-13 and 9:81!
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Peace belal, everyone,
There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 9:81 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.
That was an answer, beside Farida's.
Quote from: belalhammad on September 16, 2008, 10:19:17 PM
Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)
Hello Mr. TruthSeeker:
As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. :!
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.
Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? :confused:
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.
If you following Ayman's, the 4 restricted Months will end in the end of October and the begining of November. And according to your link, such months will be the begining of the Lowest Heat season of the year.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September:
http://www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1
I could not get any info in this link.
:)
Peace belal,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 17, 2008, 09:44:54 PM
That was an answer, beside Farida's.
If you following Ayman's, the 4 restricted Months will end in the end of October and the begining of November. And according to your link, such months will be the begining of the Lowest Heat season of the year.
I could not get any info in this link.
:)
Click on the link and then enter Medina, Saudi Arabia in the search field and then look at the 15 day forecast.
If the first restricted full-moon i.e. the scorching full-moon (shahru ramadhan) is in July, the 4th restricted full-moon will be in October. For example, this year the scorching full-moon was on July 18, which would be the first restricted full-moon, and the 4th restricted full-moon will be on Oct 14. Oct 15th will be after the 4 restricted full-moons (ashhur alharaam).
Even November is hot in the south-west Arabian peninsula. According to the links I referenced in my earlier post, the average maximum temperature in November in Yanbu (near Medina) is 32 degrees C (90 degrees F), and combined with humidity, it feels hot in November too. The highest temperatures in November can go up to as high as 40 degrees C in that region (104 degrees F).
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PMThere are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period:
1. The war of 9:81 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
2. The war of 9:81 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
3. The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat:
a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151
b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 9:13.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 9:13)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE
First, there is no need for any of those scenarios since even if one assumes like Belal that the passages in chapter 9 are arranged chronologically immediately following one another then there are many events described between 9:5 and 9:81, for example:
1. The battle in 9:25.
2. The event in 9:28.
3. The fight against the people of the book in 9:29.
4. The event in 9:40.
5. The fight against the hypocrites in 9:73.
The most important piece of evidence is in 9:86 which clearly says"
"And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during
"shahr ramadan" (2:185). So 9:81 describing
"a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year. So given this fact and the number of events that could have happened between 9:5 and 9:81, the fourth and I think the most likely scenario is that almost a year had passed and now we are back to the restricted full-moons again. Please remember that according to 2:217 BIG fighting is allowed during the restriction. The only thing the restriction is really about is hunting wild life. So this time around the believers are fighting the rejecters during the restricted period.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 10:38:44 PM
Peace belal,
Even November is hot in the south-west Arabian peninsula. According to the links I referenced in my earlier post, the average maximum temperature in November in Yanbu (near Medina) is 32 degrees C (90 degrees F), and combined with humidity, it feels hot in November too. The highest temperatures in November can go up to as high as 40 degrees C in that region (104 degrees F).
Peace all;
According to the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/country_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002770, can you tell which are the coolest months of the year?
Please, can every body check the link and answer a straight answer.
Also, ca anybody ask truth seeker, why he does not want to provide a temperature history for the Madina, as he did for Mecca.
Peace all,
Nun, I hope that you still answer my post here.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AM
Peace Umm Tariq,
How do they not agree?
The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2:228.
Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event
2:228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles
65:4 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?
I know the word 'shahr' is not in 2:228 what I was pointing to was the fact that the subject is the same, divorce, and when one takes the word 'shahr' as 'full moon', to use as a marker it's not the 'time period' itself just like menstruation, then I see the consistency of the god's message kept since this verse and 65:4 will EQUAL in the minimum case. I have shown you how what you produced doesn't cause equality. Then I asked you, why in the minimum count, should the post-menstrual wait longer than the menstrual woman if shahr is taken as month? You haven't answered this for me. If 'to be sure' is your answer then THAT actually shows that there is doubt in your way of counting but this doesn't come up when using 'full moon'. Can you provide a stronger reason for the difference?
I also agree that you are not seeing the real purpose of our discussion. Your conclusion is that 'shahr' equals time, a month, and my conclusion is that it is most consistent in the reading that 'shahr' should be 'full moon' so you can't point out to me I am wrong using your conclusion. I already included that the these two definitions do not equal each other. I have looked at your perspective and I see inconsistencies which aren't there with using 'full moon' so we will have to agree to disagree.
I have 2 more points. You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it. Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum:
9:36 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum. That is the straight/ valuable obligation
so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...2:217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein.
Say fighting therein is kabeer...
5:95 O you who have believed
do not kill the game while you are hurum9:2 So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape the god...
9:5
So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...
In 9:36, 2:217 and 5:95 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is
why they are described as hurum. In 9:2 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 9:5 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2:217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this:
5:2 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...
This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.
I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now. Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'.
Here is my last question to all who share your view on this point if any can answer CLEARLY, it's really important to me.
As a new muslim, I am faced, during the study of the god's book, with the issue of whether shahr means full moon or month. When I first was made aware that shahr had the meaning of full moon I was astounded and it automatically cleared up my confusions with verse 2:185 when it's translated using 'month' with the words (new crescent of ) added to the verse. Then I realized that if we don't take the meaning of ramadan and take it as a meaningless name then how on earth would I know when it is without referring to the arab sunni calendar? I've already been duped by them so how can I trust them on anything relating to the god's message? Without their calendar then that would mean that the god's book is not complete on it's own nor provides a clarification for everything. That would be a big blow to belief itself. Or am I to make up my own calendar, still it must be based on the god's message.
So now I am asking all of you, if I take shahr to be 'month' in 2:185
1. how do I know what that month is without referring to tainted outside sources? 2. how do I know when that month is without referring to tainted outside sources?My only conditions for the answers I am seeking is that it should be based on the god's book alone without distorting any meanings and that the answer wouldn't violate the 4 hurum.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 06:40:12 PM
Salaam Ahmad
Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.
I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where by hook or by crook you would make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen
:peace:
Peace Farida,
You are missing the whole concept of the fast. It says abstaining is required for those who witness/sight it, but it doesn't say that blind people can't abstain as well if they choose to... If a blind person hears from friends about the sighting of "shahru ramadhan" and they choose to abstain, who's preventing them? They can do so if they choose. But since they did/can not sight/witness it for themselves, it is not required. That's according to the reading... If the scripture was saying that EVERYONE PRESENT/LIVING is to fast the period, then this would also apply to non-muslims, since they are also "present" during this period. Why isn't it interpreted in that light? Do you not understand? The scripture sets a distinction between those who "WITNESS/SIGHT" the "shahru ramadhan" and those who don't, and this is clearly given in the reading. Who is a better witness than The God Himself? Surely, He has prepared us a book fully detailed, explaining all things. A blind person can be a believer in The God and in the message, so he is definately a follower of the system - not being able to sight the moon doesn't make a person an "unbeliever", does it?
Here's a question: Is a newborn baby, who is also "present"/living during the shahru ramadhan, exempt from the fast, or are we to starve the child because the period has come?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Is anyone actually gaining any further insight into fasting or are people just growing more and more adamant in their own views on the Qur'an? What a tiresome exercise!
Peace
Peace all,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.
Truthseeker 11, my sentiments exactly. That's all I am looking for as well and I guess we have to exhibit patience when we don't get that maashaa'a Allah.
To Farida,
"Arabic is not my native language, I depend on the translations available, and I have explained in my post above to Ahmad how I understand 2:185, if you like you can educate me on that as well."
I am not sure which response you are talking about in particular, if you can paste it to me or give the link I will look at it. However do you understand what I showed you about the use of shaheda in the reading? Others have made issue with you about not seeing this difference,
is it clear from the reading and is it possible or just to ignore it?
"if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction? Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started. If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them. Just my observation.
Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death. Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use. This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me. If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day.
How do you reconcile that? If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up. Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?"
Can you please answer my questions here directly pertaining to the blind and about the issue of death. As a simple comparision I see that you view ramadan as a name (but I'm not really sure how you know when it is, I asked that in my other post) and you still need to 'witness' a particular phase of the moon to know it has begun. Taking shahr as full moon which needs to be witnessed and ramadan as a common word still produces the same results in reference to the blind to me. I just want clear answers to my questions.
"To me seeing moon physically by each and everyone is not a requirement as long as it?s been acknowledged that the moon been sighted as a mark for the start of the month."
The first part is correct since the verse, the god, stipulates so whoever 'minkum' (from amongst you) witnesses it, but your last inclusion of 'being acknowledged' is not included in the verse. ???
Umm Tariq
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 18, 2008, 06:31:03 AM
Peace Farida,
You are missing the whole concept of the fast. It says abstaining is required for those who witness/sight it, but it doesn't say that blind people can't abstain as well if they choose to... If a blind person hears from friends about the sighting of "shahru ramadhan" and they choose to abstain, who's preventing them? They can do so if they choose. But since they did/can not sight/witness it for themselves, it is not required. That's according to the reading... If the scripture was saying that EVERYONE PRESENT/LIVING is to fast the period, then this would also apply to non-muslims, since they are also "present" during this period. Why isn't it interpreted in that light? Do you not understand? The scripture sets a distinction between those who "WITNESS/SIGHT" the "shahru ramadhan" and those who don't, and this is clearly given in the reading. Who is a better witness than The God Himself? Surely, He has prepared us a book fully detailed, explaining all things. A blind person can be a believer in The God and in the message, so he is definately a follower of the system - not being able to sight the moon doesn't make a person an "unbeliever", does it?
Here's a question: Is a newborn baby, who is also "present"/living during the shahru ramadhan, exempt from the fast, or are we to starve the child because the period has come?
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam
Your go on to insist that a blind person is exempt but raise a ridiculous question about new born baby.
Now let me ask same question to you let?s say; a two year old happen to be outside in the garden playing in the summer evening and notice most obvious full moon which marks start of your fasting then this two year old is obliged to fast where as a healthy grownup blind person is exempt????
Unless you lock away kids in that summers evening and make sure allow only those to come out who
YOU think should witness and thus fast :confused:
:peace:
Quote from: Soof on September 18, 2008, 06:31:27 AM
Peace
Is anyone actually gaining any further insight into fasting or are people just growing more and more adamant in their own views on the Qur'an? What a tiresome exercise!
Peace
Salaam Soof
As you know I was part of this debate to find out the truth for
myself and there is no doubt left for me. Howver it was my world to Umm Tariq that I would reply to her that I came back and in that process few more questions were thrown towards me and I had to reply otherwise I am out I am not debating this anymore I have better things to do.
74:31 And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers,
and that those in whose hearts is a DISEASE and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. :peace:
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 18, 2008, 06:32:28 AM
Peace all,
Truthseeker 11, my sentiments exactly. That's all I am looking for as well and I guess we have to exhibit patience when we don't get that maashaa'a Allah.
Umm Tariq
Salaam Umm Tariq
You obviously see only one side of the debate so I don?t think I would bother replying to your concern after this.
I must correct you that I do not see Ramadan is the name for our month of fasting it has now become a name, but when first time the Qur'an was revealed it was in summer evening in Northern Hemisphere and winter in Sothern hemisphere. The time continued, month of fasting has been rotating since then Please see my posts for details replies.
You have answers to all your questions in this thread and for the last time I am pasting my previous reply to you as something to reflect on.
Please make some effort and look for my replies which answers all your queries, Its our month of fasting and we have better things to do
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2008, 04:08:20 PM
Peace Ayman,
I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting:
2-183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon
Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen? Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???
Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.
I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians: http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?
If what you say is meant by the surah 17:12... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim and the passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a programme about rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes, I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as:
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solstices
http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta :
:peace:
:peace:
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 18, 2008, 06:03:39 AM
I also agree that you are not seeing the real purpose of our discussion. Your conclusion is that 'shahr' equals time, a month, and my conclusion is that it is most consistent in the reading that 'shahr' should be 'full moon' so you can't point out to me I am wrong using your conclusion. I already included that the these two definitions do not equal each other. I have looked at your perspective and I see inconsistencies which aren't there with using 'full moon' so we will have to agree to disagree.
I have 2 more points. You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it. Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum:
9:36 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum. That is the straight/ valuable obligation so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...
2:217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein. Say fighting therein is kabeer...
5:95 O you who have believed do not kill the game while you are hurum
9:2 So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape the god...
9:5 So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...
In 9:36, 2:217 and 5:95 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is why they are described as hurum. In 9:2 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 9:5 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2:217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this:
5:2 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...
This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.
I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now. Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'.
Here is my last question to all who share your view on this point if any can answer CLEARLY, it's really important to me.
As a new muslim, I am faced, during the study of the god's book, with the issue of whether shahr means full moon or month. When I first was made aware that shahr had the meaning of full moon I was astounded and it automatically cleared up my confusions with verse 2:185 when it's translated using 'month' with the words (new crescent of ) added to the verse. Then I realized that if we don't take the meaning of ramadan and take it as a meaningless name then how on earth would I know when it is without referring to the arab sunni calendar? I've already been duped by them so how can I trust them on anything relating to the god's message? Without their calendar then that would mean that the god's book is not complete on it's own nor provides a clarification for everything. That would be a big blow to belief itself. Or am I to make up my own calendar, still it must be based on the god's message.
So now I am asking all of you, if I take shahr to be 'month' in 2:185 1. how do I know what that month is without referring to tainted outside sources? 2. how do I know when that month is without referring to tainted outside sources?
My only conditions for the answers I am seeking is that it should be based on the god's book alone without distorting any meanings and that the answer wouldn't violate the 4 hurum.
Umm Tariq
Peace Um Tariq,
Shahr has two primary meanings:
1. apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known
2. The moon: or the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.
Ramadhan has two primary meanings:
1. mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning
2. scorching heat
Haram means:
1. forbidden, prohibited, unlawful.
In God?s book, shahr is used to mean manifest in some verses and it is used to mean the full moon in some other verses. The meaning depends on the context and subject of the verse.
The word ramadhan is used only once in Good?s book (in 2.185) and its meaning is ?suffering, bothering, and concerning?
The word haram is always used to mean ?forbidden, prohibited, and unlawful? and it never means sacred.
Uncontrolled fantasies cause a miserable life for the human being and society and makes life as hell. Hell is all fire and suffering. The obvious suffering (Shahr ramadhan) is caused by the people when they are controlled by their fantasizes and they go astray. The obvious suffering is in the hearts and surroundings of the people. The great reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion when this intensive suffering which is caused by the fantasies of people was obvious.
Therefore we can translate 2.185 as follows:
2.185 The obvious/clear/apparent/noticeable suffering is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever among you experiences/witnesses the manifestation/sign/symptom, shall self discipline himself. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
If we take shahr ramadhan as ?the physical scorching moon after the summer solstice? or ?month? it will be difficult to imagine how all the people (blind or not) living on the earth or on a space station (in future) may experience this shahr ramadhan. On the other hand it is possible to experience the obvious suffering caused by the uncontrolled hidden fantasies of the people wherever they are.
This is explained in chapter 19 in verses 25 to 29:
19:25 And shake towards you the palm tree, it will drop ripe fruits.
19:26 So savor* it, and relax, and when you see anyone, then say, "I have pledged to the Almighty a "syauman"; therefore I shall not converse, today to anyone.'"
19:27 She went with it to her people, carrying him. They said, "O, Mary, you have committed indecency".
19:28 "O sister of Aaron; your father was not evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
19:29 Hence, she pointed at him; they said, "How could we converse with the messiac (Mahdi) infant?"
Did Mary witnessed ?shahr ramadhan??
She was blamed of committing indecency by her people. She witnessed the obvious anger of her people and she witnessed/experienced her obvious feelings of sadness and distress. She had to SELF DISCIPLINE herself before she meets her people.
She was righteous in the way she dealt with her people.
2.183 ?O you who believe, SIYAM has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be RIGHTEOUS?.
The main purpose of SIYAM is to become RIGHTEOUS.
The Saum of Maryam is an example for us because she is one of those before us. One can become righteous if he trains himself or self discipline himself and abstains from uncontrolled fantasies that cause a miserable life for the human being himself the and society. I am not sure if not eating and drinking for some period may cause one to be righteous.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2008, 11:09:39 PM
Peace Truthseeker,
First, there is no need for any of those scenarios since even if one assumes like Belal that the passages in chapter 9 are arranged chronologically immediately following one another then there are many events described between 9:5 and 9:81, for example:
1. The battle in 9:25.
2. The event in 9:28.
3. The fight against the people of the book in 9:29.
4. The event in 9:40.
5. The fight against the hypocrites in 9:73.
The most important piece of evidence is in 9:86 which clearly says" "And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during "shahr ramadan" (2:185). So 9:81 describing "a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year. So given this fact and the number of events that could have happened between 9:5 and 9:81, the fourth and I think the most likely scenario is that almost a year had passed and now we are back to the restricted full-moons again. Please remember that according to 2:217 BIG fighting is allowed during the restriction. The only thing the restriction is really about is hunting wild life. So this time around the believers are fighting the rejecters during the restricted period.
Peace,
Ayman
Thank you for bringing 2:217 and other events in chapter 9 to attention. 2:217 is the clincher and removes any confusion I had about the issue of war in restricted full-moons. The scenario described by you does appear to be the most likely one. The war described in 9:81 is most likely during the full-moon cycle of shahr ramadhan but not during the restricted full-moons described in 9:2 and 9:5 so those two events are most likely different ones.
Peace Tlepsh,
Quote from: Tlepsh on September 18, 2008, 10:34:50 AM
Peace Um Tariq,
Shahr has two primary meanings:
1. apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known
2. The moon: or the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.
Ramadhan has two primary meanings:
1. mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning
2. scorching heat
Haram means:
1. forbidden, prohibited, unlawful.
In God?s book, shahr is used to mean manifest in some verses and it is used to mean the full moon in some other verses. The meaning depends on the context and subject of the verse.
The word ramadhan is used only once in Good?s book (in 2.185) and its meaning is ?suffering, bothering, and concerning?
The word haram is always used to mean ?forbidden, prohibited, and unlawful? and it never means sacred.
Uncontrolled fantasies cause a miserable life for the human being and society and makes life as hell. Hell is all fire and suffering. The obvious suffering (Shahr ramadhan) is caused by the people when they are controlled by their fantasizes and they go astray. The obvious suffering is in the hearts and surroundings of the people. The great reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion when this intensive suffering which is caused by the fantasies of people was obvious.
Therefore we can translate 2.185 as follows:
2.185 The obvious/clear/apparent/noticeable suffering is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever among you experiences/witnesses the manifestation/sign/symptom, shall self discipline himself. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
If we take shahr ramadhan as ?the physical scorching moon after the summer solstice? or ?month? it will be difficult to imagine how all the people (blind or not) living on the earth or on a space station (in future) may experience this shahr ramadhan. On the other hand it is possible to experience the obvious suffering caused by the uncontrolled hidden fantasies of the people wherever they are.
This is explained in chapter 19 in verses 25 to 29:
19:25 And shake towards you the palm tree, it will drop ripe fruits.
19:26 So savor* it, and relax, and when you see anyone, then say, "I have pledged to the Almighty a "syauman"; therefore I shall not converse, today to anyone.'"
19:27 She went with it to her people, carrying him. They said, "O, Mary, you have committed indecency".
19:28 "O sister of Aaron; your father was not evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
19:29 Hence, she pointed at him; they said, "How could we converse with the messiac (Mahdi) infant?"
Did Mary witnessed ?shahr ramadhan??
She was blamed of committing indecency by her people. She witnessed the obvious anger of her people and she witnessed/experienced her obvious feelings of sadness and distress. She had to SELF DISCIPLINE herself before she meets her people.
She was righteous in the way she dealt with her people.
2.183 ?O you who believe, SIYAM has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be RIGHTEOUS?.
The main purpose of SIYAM is to become RIGHTEOUS.
The Saum of Maryam is an example for us because she is one of those before us. One can become righteous if he trains himself or self discipline himself and abstains from uncontrolled fantasies that cause a miserable life for the human being himself the and society. I am not sure if not eating and drinking for some period may cause one to be righteous.
Your translation of "shahru ramadhan" is not grammatically and linguistically correct. In order for your translation of "obvious suffering" to be correct, it should be "ramadhan shahr", making shahr the adjective. The actual phrase is the other way around "shahr ramadhan", in which "ramadhan" is the adjective. It can only be translated as "scorching full-moon".
Others like Samia with better knowledge of Arabic grammar and linguistics are invited to give their comments on this.
Peace rsw,
Quote from: rsw on September 11, 2008, 07:23:13 PM
Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else
We can feed the fasting poor when they break their fast and before dawn :!
Tlepsh,
Quote
Shahr has two primary meanings:
1. apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known
2. The moon: or the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.
Ramadhan has two primary meanings:
1. mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning
2. scorching heat
Haram means:
1. forbidden, prohibited, unlawful.
THis is incorrect. The root shahira means to be apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known. The noun shahr means moon, full moon, crescent moon, or 29 Islamo-Judaic days.
The root ramada = to be constantly or intensely hot (felt internally or externally).
Haraam means forbidden, prohibited, restricted and holy.
I know that naturally you will argue me on this but I just wanted others to know that you are giving incorrect information. You can save your hands any effort if that is your intent. Secondly your defintion of shahru ramadan can be correct. But neither you nor anyone here understands Arabic grammar enough nor respects the letter of the Quran to know how some of what you claim can be understood by shahru ramadana no matter how incorrect contextually your meanings may be.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 18, 2008, 06:03:39 AM
Nun, I hope that you still answer my post here.
Then I asked you, why in the minimum count, should the post-menstrual wait longer than the menstrual woman if shahr is taken as month? You haven't answered this for me.
Alright Umm Tarig and I hope you will answer my question.
This is simple logic.
Menstruating women depending on date of divorce 3 cycles vary from 2 ? 3 months.
Women not menstruating wait maximum 3 months which covers 3 cycles.
Example; a divorced woman is having menstrual issues, irregular timings...
What should she do?
1. Go outside each night or day look to see if there is a full moon
2. Wait 3 months
Explain what restricted full moon is...
Full moon July 18 ? there is no fighting that day, right?
You guys keep referring ?full moon? yet a time frame of a month is in all the posts.
1 2 3 4 restricted full moons ? four full moons (i.e. 4 different dates) or time frame = 3 months?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ? twelve full moons (dates) or time frame = 11 months?
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2008, 11:09:39 PM
Peace Truthseeker,
First, there is no need for any of those scenarios since even if one assumes like Belal that the passages in chapter 9 are arranged chronologically immediately following one another then there are many events described between 9:5 and 9:81, for example:
1. The battle in 9:25.
2. The event in 9:28.
3. The fight against the people of the book in 9:29.
4. The event in 9:40.
5. The fight against the hypocrites in 9:73.
The most important piece of evidence is in 9:86 which clearly says" "And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during "shahr ramadan" (2:185). So 9:81 describing "a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year. So given this fact and the number of events that could have happened between 9:5 and 9:81, the fourth and I think the most likely scenario is that almost a year had passed and now we are back to the restricted full-moons again. Please remember that according to 2:217 BIG fighting is allowed during the restriction. The only thing the restriction is really about is hunting wild life. So this time around the believers are fighting the rejecters during the restricted period.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman and Mr. truthseeker :confused::
Do not underestimate the readers? intelligent; no one can turn off the light of truth.
Ayman, Frida told you before that even if 9-81 is not related to 9-1 to 5, which I know that they are related, still we can?t ignore that:
1-the war in 9-81 in summer time
2-the war in 9-81 was after the 4 restricted months, which shows that Rammadan was not in summer time but was 4 month before.
3-the war in 9-81 was under the control of the prophet in when it should start (the prophet was on the offensive side).
4-the only war that the prophet was ordered to be in the offensive side is the war of chapter 9.
Now, for the truthseeker, why are you running around from posting the weather trend in Madina?
For Ayman, why do you think that the entire Quran was revealed only in Rammadan?
Moreover, Ayman you said:
Quote:
The most important piece of evidence is in 9:86 which clearly says"
"And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during
"shahr ramadan" (2:185). So 9:81 describing
"a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year.
End Quote
9-86 does not say that fight should be during the restricted month, as 9-81 shows that the war was not during the 4 restricted months ,but after.
And your argument about that the entire Quran was revealed in Rammadan is not only irrelevant to our topic, but also a misleading one.
Your argument shows your deliberate intention to confuse the readers; but as I told you, you can?t turn off the Truth Light, nor you can confuse the Believers intelligent.
:tempt:
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 18, 2008, 11:29:42 AM
Peace Tlepsh,
Your translation of "shahru ramadhan" is not grammatically and linguistically correct. In order for your translation of "obvious suffering" to be correct, it should be "ramadhan shahr", making shahr the adjective. The actual phrase is the other way around "shahr ramadhan", in which "ramadhan" is the adjective. It can only be translated as "scorching full-moon".
Others like Samia with better knowledge of Arabic grammar and linguistics are invited to give their comments on this.
Peace truthseeker11,
I am sure Samia will give her comments and clarify this subject. Thanks to her in advance.
Quote from: progod on September 18, 2008, 04:38:56 PM
Tlepsh,
THis is incorrect. The root shahira means to be apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known. The noun shahr means moon, full moon, crescent moon, or 29 Islamo-Judaic days.
The root ramada = to be constantly or intensely hot (felt internally or externally).
Haraam means forbidden, prohibited, restricted and holy.
I know that naturally you will argue me on this but I just wanted others to know that you are giving incorrect information. You can save your hands any effort if that is your intent. Secondly your defintion of shahru ramadan can be correct. But neither you nor anyone here understands Arabic grammar enough nor respects the letter of the Quran to know how some of what you claim can be understood by shahru ramadana no matter how incorrect contextually your meanings may be.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
17.36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Everybody including you and me shall verify every peace of knowledge before upholding. God has given hearing, eyesight, and mind to everybody not only to you or me.
Peace Nun,
Here is where I explained about what is meant by 4 hurum:
"I have 2 more points. You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it. Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum:
9:36 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum. That is the straight/ valuable obligation so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...
2:217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein. Say fighting therein is kabeer...
5:95 O you who have believed do not kill the game while you are hurum
9:2 So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape the god...
9:5 So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...
In 9:36, 2:217 and 5:95 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is why they are described as hurum. In 9:2 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 9:5 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2:217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this:
5:2 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...
This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.
I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now. Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'. "
I had also made it very clear and you see it as well that when we say 'shahr' is 'full moon' then we mean in the sense of it being a MARKER to start and end whatever particular count it is, the period of time BETWEEN, 2,3 or 4 full moons, that's all. Because of the way shaheda is used in verse 2:185, and I posted to Farida it's different usages in the reading, that is one point for me that shahr should be full moon, something that can be witnessed in seeing and not month which cannot. I am sure everyone is agreeing that this verse itself doesn't mention witnessing the hilal to know the beginning of this particular month which is why those words are added in translations who take shahr as month. That's another strike against the 'month' translation for me.
Your logic is this:
"Menstruating women depending on date of divorce 3 cycles vary from 2 ? 3 months.
Women not menstruating wait maximum 3 months which covers 3 cycles."
What I am saying is that keeping with the CONSISTENCY of the god's verses and ACCURACY and PRECISION, the menstruating women are using their cycles as a MARKER and not the time it lasts itself since it only lasts from 3 to 7 or 10 days on average for different women. If they did, and I mentioned this before, they would be starting and stopping during this count and that makes no sense and everyone knows that that's not what's intended. It's intended to be a MARKER to start and end the total count, the total time period of waiting.
SO...
I saw the CONSISTENCY in taking shahr as 'full moon' even in these verses pertaining to divorce, in 65:4, since it can ALSO be used as a MARKER. It would be understood, like in the case of the cycles, that you use the full moon as a SURE MARKER to start and end the full waiting.
You still didn't answer WHY should the non-menstruating AUTOMATICALLY, if you take shahr to be month, wait for 3 months max? As opposed to the minimum case illustrated by the verse for menstruating women. Have you sorted out why this discrepancy whereas if we use 'full moon' for 'shahr' the two verses EQUAL in the minimum count. I am convinced by such consistency.
Remember, you are using 'month' in all of your translations and what that means to you and I am using 'full moon'. Our COUNTS will undoubtedly differ so I asked for this discussion so that I can see the perspective of one who uses 'month', how the verses pan out, compared to using full moon and I thank you for this discussion. My conclusion stays so far that full moon is the most accurate translation for 'shahr' in these verses and it keeps consistency when the verses are put next to each other. Here are just 3 examples of why I believe in the consistency of the god's verses and why I can't accept 'month' for 'shahr', too many more questions arise that aren't answered by the book.
I was looking for why the god uses 'ikhwa' in this verse:
49:10 Verily the believers are 'ikhwa'...
I found this verse:
4:176 ...and if they were 'ikhwa' men and women...
Since I know that the god's verses explain themselves and each other I believe that I found my answer. When He used ikhwa referring to believers, clearly believers include men and women, 4:176 seems to show that this form of the word refers to men and women so alhamdulillah, CLEAR and PRECISE.
What does 'bayt' mean according to the reading?
2:125 And when we made the bayt a mathaaba for the people and security...
This I see as another style in the reading where a word and it's meaning are actually together in the same verse or at least clearly alluded to. Look up the definition of 'mathaaba' and that's basically what a bayt is in the least. CLEAR and PRECISE.
I come to the issue of fasting 'shahr ramadan' and we have:
2:185 shahr ramadan which was sent down therein the reading...
44:2-3 And by the clear book.-- Verily we have sent it down in a blessed night (laylah mubaarakah)...
97:1,5 Verily we have sent it down in/within the night of al-qadr ...-- peace it is until the beginning/ start of the dawn.
Hmmm. I look at these verses and I see, related to the sending down, shahr ramadan, blessed night, night of al-qadr. Night is no mistaking it. I believe the god is consistent and precise so if shahr means full moon, this is all equal since we know that a full moon is during the night and the fast begins at fajr as well. The god made reference to peace until the start of fajr. These are enough signs for me to AT LEAST look into the meaning of full moon as opposed to month. If we use month in 2:185 then consistency and preciseness goes away. If month was correct, then to keep consistency, the other verses should have said something like 'a night amongst nights' or something related. The subject of these 3 verses is the same so how can they not be consistent??? Do you see CLEAR and PRECISE here, I do?
Do you see my point here? This is one of the basis that I go by in trying to understand the god's message. The god has described His book as consistent so I definitely can't go against that. This is how I understand doing 'tarteel' of the verses, arranging similar verses by word, topic, phrase etc.
I can't be any more clear than this. This discussion has been positive and after all you presented this is why, for now, I still will stick to the conclusion of full moon for shahr. If you can prove that the reading isn't consistent...don't know about that one.
Sincerely,
Umm Tariq
Peace all,
Here's another verse using 'shaheda', 'witness' in the present tense without 'alaa' (against/ upon) or 'anna' (that):
24:2 ...and let a taa'ifah (party/ group) of the believers 'witness' their punishment.
It's clearly also understood here, I hope so anyway, that witness here means to SEE their punishment. We would 'hear' it too, at least at the time it's happening, but if someone is not seeing but only hearing it, how can they be sure, without looking, that it was someone being punished for zinaa and not just someone in pain after an accident or whatever we can think of.
Also, comparing to the other verses mentioned earlier, the examples in the verses are clearly about seeing something as well.
Umm Tariq
Peace Umm Tarig,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 19, 2008, 09:20:57 AM
I had also made it very clear and you see it as well that when we say 'shahr' is 'full moon' then we mean in the sense of it being a MARKER to start and end whatever particular count it is, the period of time BETWEEN, 2,3 or 4 full moons, that's all.
Yes you made it clear -- markers need start and an end that is called a MONTH!
Dictionary:
month
n.
1.
A unit of time corresponding approximately to one cycle of the moon's phases
full moon
n.
1. The moon when it is visible as a fully illuminated disk.
(http://jeffreykishner.com/images/full_moon_large.jpg)
Please tell us what is restricted about that picture?
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 19, 2008, 09:28:33 AM
Here's another verse using 'shaheda', 'witness' in the present tense without 'alaa' (against/ upon) or 'anna' (that):
24:2 ...and let a taa'ifah (party/ group) of the believers 'witness' their punishment.
It's clearly also understood here, I hope so anyway, that witness here means to SEE their punishment.
Lets continue reading...
24:8 But it shall avert the punishment from her, if she bears "witness" four times by Allah, that he is telling a lie.
What did she SEE?
Peace Nun,
Your right, another example of the word shaheda being used, thanks, but you are missing the key word in that verse:
And it will avert the punishment from her that she 'bears witness' four testimonies by Allah THAT indeed he is of the liars. 24:8 The part in arabic is: "...an tashhada arba'a shahaadaat billah ANNAHU la minal kaathebeen." I gave examples of this which makes the meaning in the sense of 'bearing witness' that something... The ANNA, that, goes with shaheda.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 19, 2008, 11:34:16 AM
Peace Umm Tarig,
Yes you made it clear -- markers need start and an end that is called a MONTH!
We look at that MARKER as the full moon, something apparent, obvious, easily seen.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 19, 2008, 11:34:16 AM
Dictionary:
month
n.
1. A unit of time corresponding approximately to one cycle of the moon's phases
Yes, evidently not a set 'unit of time', they don't even acknowledge a particular number of days since it can vary. Question still remains for you to prove how to 'witness' a month, with the way witness is used in the reading consistently, not mixing it's usages, considering no one knows if they will be alive the whole month to really say that they have witnessed it for sure? That also leaves for you, how do you know when it begins? If you say new crescent moon, most people don't get to witness that, way less than those who can witness a full moon, even when not looking for it. Also, ahillah, is not mentioned in this verse and I don't believe we can make such additions and then say that this is from the god.
So when does this month begin?Quote from: Nun de plume on September 19, 2008, 11:34:16 AM
Please tell us what is restricted about that picture?
I brought the verses about hurum previously and we already ascertained that those particular full moons are markers and the time in between is what is restricted. Since the god didn't give us in the reading a full calendar with names and all, then there must be other indications of how to ascertain these times still from the book itself not from some unknown people.
Peace Nun, everyone,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 18, 2008, 05:48:57 PMThis is simple logic.
Menstruating women depending on date of divorce 3 cycles vary from 2 ? 3 months.
Women not menstruating wait maximum 3 months which covers 3 cycles.
Your interpretation of "months" is clearly creating an inconsistency in the command of the god (whatever your haphazard month means since you haven't said what a month is).
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 18, 2008, 05:48:57 PMExample; a divorced woman is having menstrual issues, irregular timings...
What should she do?
1. Go outside each night or day look to see if there is a full moon
2. Wait 3 months
She would do the same thing that she does when she is counting her menstruations. Here are the choices:
1. Stay in the bathroom all night and day and look to see if there is blood.
2. Wait 3 months.
3. None of the above. She actually counts three menstruation events in the same exact way as counting three full-moons events.
Clearly, 3 is the only correct answer.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 18, 2008, 05:48:57 PMExplain what restricted full moon is...
Full moon July 18 ? there is no fighting that day, right?
Who said anything about no fighting? See 2:217.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 18, 2008, 05:48:57 PMYou guys keep referring ?full moon? yet a time frame of a month is in all the posts.
1 2 3 4 restricted full moons ? four full moons (i.e. 4 different dates) or time frame = 3 months?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ? twelve full moons (dates) or time frame = 11 months?
Why don't you actually count 12 of your "months" every year as per 9:36? The only way you can do it and maintain the timing in sync with the seasons is if "shahr" is "full-moon". There is no way around it. Here is the count of the full moons from 2005 to 2010 (I can go as far in the past or in the future as you want):
2005 Summer Solstice
1. JUNE 22, 2005 (scorching full moon)
2. JULY 21, 2005
3. AUG 19, 2005
4. SEPT 18, 2005
5. OCT 17, 2005
6. NOV 16, 2005
7. DEC 15, 2005
8. JAN 14, 2006
9. FEB 13, 2006
10. MAR 14, 2006
11. APR 13, 2006
12. MAY 13, 2006
13. JUNE 11, 2006 (Skip as per 9:36)
2006 Summer Solstice
1. JULY 10, 2006 (scorching full moon)
2. AUG 9, 2006
3. SEP 7, 2006
4. OCT 7, 2006
5. NOV 5, 2006
6. DEC 5, 2006
7. JAN 3, 2007
8. FEB 2, 2007
9. MAR 3, 2007
10. APR 2, 2007
11. MAY 2, 2007
12. JUNE 1, 2007
Summer Solstice 2007
1. JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)
2. JULY 30, 2007
3. AUG 28, 2007
4. SEPT 26, 2007
5. OCT 26, 2007
6. NOV 24, 2007
7. DEC 24, 2007
8. JAN 22, 2008
9. FEB 21, 2008
10. MAR 21, 2008
11. APR 20, 2008
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 9:36)
Summer Solstice 2008
1. JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 2008)
2. AUG 16, 2008
3. SEPT 15, 2008
4. OCT 14, 2008
5. NOV 13, 2008
6. DEC 12, 2008
7. JAN 11, 2009
8. FEB 9, 2009
9. MAR 11, 2009
10. APR 9, 2009
11. MAY 9, 2009
12. JUNE 7, 2009
Summer Solstice 2009
1. JULY 6, 2009 (scorching full moon 2009)
2. AUG 6, 2009
3. SEPT 4, 2009
4. OCT 4, 2009
5. NOV 2, 2009
6. DEC 2, 2009
7. DEC 31, 2009
8. JAN 30, 2010
9. FEB 28, 2010
10. MAR 30, 2010
11. APR 28, 2010
12. MAY 27, 2010
Summer Solstice 2010
1. JUN 25, 2010 (scorching full moon 2010)
Now let's see you count EXACTLY 12 months every single solar year (9:36) according to whatever your definition of "month" is and automatically sync the timing with the seasons.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 19, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
Who said anything about no fighting? See 2:217.
2:217 is a fight to defend yourself, but 9-81 is an offinsive fight; thus no fight in the 4 restricted month unless for self defense purpose.
Quote from: ayman on September 19, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
13. JUNE 11, 2006 (Skip as per 9:36)
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 9:36)
:rotfl:
You are a Cheater; do you thing God made a mistake and you are fixing by skiping? There is NO Solar Year, otherwise you will have to Cheat ;D
Quote from: ayman on September 19, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
Now let's see you count EXACTLY 12 months every single solar year (9:36) according to whatever your definition of "month" is and automatically sync the timing with the seasons.
There is No Solar Year per Quran; IT IS A LUNAR YEAR :brickwall:
:)
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 19, 2008, 01:45:03 PM
We look at that MARKER as the full moon, something apparent, obvious, easily seen.
As explained the moon is full momentarily at a specific time and looks full on different days with variance of .3 % lunminance. NOT easy.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 19, 2008, 01:45:03 PM
Question still remains for you to prove how to 'witness' a month, with the way witness is used in the reading consistently, not mixing it's usages, considering no one knows if they will be alive the whole month to really say that they have witnessed it for sure?
2:185 ...so who witnessed from you the month,
so he should fast itWho testifies/makes a conscious intention to fast the month, so he should fast it.
5:111 ...they said: "We believe and witness/testify with that we truly (are) submitters."
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 19, 2008, 01:45:03 PM
So when does this month begin?
2:185 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted
from other days.Fasting is during days (dawn to sunset)
It does not say to fast a full moon which lasts a moment during days and nights.
I'm still researching the exact day to start.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 19, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
She would do the same thing that she does when she is counting her menstruations. Here are the choices:
1. Stay in the bathroom all night and day and look to see if there is blood.
2. Wait 3 months.
3. None of the above. She actually counts three menstruation events in the same exact way as counting three full-moons events.
Clearly, 3 is the only correct answer.
Clearly you do not know about irregular menstruations and basic women's issues.
How can she count 3 menstruation events if she is having menstruation problems?
65:4 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months...
http://www.targetwoman.com/articles/irregular-menstrual-cycle.html
Typically a menstrual cycle ranges anywhere from 21 ? 35 days. Irregular menstrual cycle is a common complaint with about 20% of the women. Irregularity of menses can be either of short term or long term irregularity. In rare cases, it can be as long as 40 days. Even menopause varies from woman to woman. For some, menopause doesn?t occur until they reach sixties.
Quote from: ayman on September 19, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
Here is the count of the full moons from 2005 to 2010 (I can go as far in the past or in the future as you want):
2005 Summer Solstice
1. JUNE 22, 2005 (scorching full moon)
2. JULY 21, 2005
3. AUG 19, 2005
4. SEPT 18, 2005
5. OCT 17, 2005
6. NOV 16, 2005
7. DEC 15, 2005
8. JAN 14, 2006
9. FEB 13, 2006
10. MAR 14, 2006
11. APR 13, 2006
12. MAY 13, 2006
13. JUNE 11, 2006 (Skip as per 9:36)
2006 Summer Solstice
1. JULY 10, 2006 (scorching full moon)
2. AUG 9, 2006
3. SEP 7, 2006
4. OCT 7, 2006
5. NOV 5, 2006
6. DEC 5, 2006
7. JAN 3, 2007
8. FEB 2, 2007
9. MAR 3, 2007
10. APR 2, 2007
11. MAY 2, 2007
12. JUNE 1, 2007
Summer Solstice 2007
1. JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)
Now let's see you count EXACTLY 12 months every single solar year (9:36) according to whatever your definition of "month" is and automatically sync the timing with the seasons.
1 ? 12 lunar cycle x 11 = 324.83649 days
How can you obliterate a whole month one year and not next year ? what happens to the time?
9:37 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit it a year and they forbid it a year, to agree to (the) term God prohibited...
The twelve months are continuous; no skipping or adding.
1 lunar month = 0.080852076 solar years
12 lunar month = 0.970224912 solar years
365.242199 x 19 solar years = 6 939.60178
29.53058867 x 235 lunar months = 6 939.68834
As stated earlier I'm working on it.
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:33:52 AMClearly you do not know about irregular menstruations and basic women's issues.
Clearly you are bringing irrelevant issues to evade answering the reason for your inconsitancy.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:33:52 AMHow can she count 3 menstruation events if she is having menstruation problems?
65:4 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months...
65:4 is not about your irrelevant menstruation problems. It is about women who don't have menstruations all together. Hence, they have "given up" on menstruations. As I said, you are evading the issue by bringing up an irrelevant point.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:33:52 AM1 ? 12 lunar cycle x 11 = 324.83649 days
How can you obliterate a whole month one year and not next year ? what happens to the time?
It is not my problem that you can't understand that we are counting events and not a time period.
The god told us that the "count"/"3idat" is 12 "shahr" (9:36) in a solar year (17:12). The word "count"/"3idat" is different than "3adad"/number and the god doesn't use words haphazardly. The count is about counting. So we count exactly 12 each year and we skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon. This is what 9:36 is clearly saying, otherwise the god would have said the number/"3adad" is 12 and that the year is lunar.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:33:52 AMThe twelve months are continuous; no skipping or adding.
If they are continuous as you claim then they are in the billions since a few billion years have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:33:52 AM1 lunar month = 0.080852076 solar years
12 lunar month = 0.970224912 solar years
365.242199 x 19 solar years = 6 939.60178
29.53058867 x 235 lunar months = 6 939.68834
12/0.970224912 = 12.36826621 months NOT 12So you are violating 12:36-37 and instead of counting 12 as I am doing as per the god's command (which is the ONLY possible way) you are counting 12.36826621. This way you would allow the hunting restrictions to be violated. You don't believe in the hunting restrictions or in the god when he tells you that you have to count EXACTLY 12 "shahr" every year and not 12.36826621. The "restricted months" according to you will be violated every single year and not just every other year like the pagans did.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2008, 01:08:25 PM
Clearly you are bringing irrelevant issues to evade answering the reason for your inconsitancy.
65:4 is not about your irrelevant menstruation problems. It is about women who don't have menstruations all together. Hence, they have "given up" on menstruations. As I said, you are evading the issue by bringing up an irrelevant point.
NO, you are clearly evading the issue and not reading the verse correctly.
This same twisting fanatics use to condone sex with 9 year olds.
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an
65:4 And
those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women,
if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and
those who did not menstruate, and of
the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth...
The verse covers:
1. Those with irregular cycles, ?if you became doubtful/suspicious?
2. Those who do not menstruate (menopause)
3. Pregnant women
20% of women have irregular menstrual timing issues and are told to wait 3 months
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2008, 01:08:25 PM
It is not my problem that you can't understand that we are counting events and not a time period.
O? I see full moons are individual events -- what is the word for month or is there such a word in Quran?
2:217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it...
Explain how one can fight/not fight in ?an event? of ONE full moon? How much time is that?
58:4 And he who finds not must fast two successive full moons...
Two successive full moon ?events? is exactly 1 lunar cycle 29.53059 days, right?
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2008, 01:08:25 PM
If they are continuous as you claim then they are in the billions since a few billion years have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth.
Yes a continuous count of 12...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12...
NOT
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
SKIP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2008, 01:08:25 PM
12/0.970224912 = 12.36826621 months NOT 12
So you are violating 12:36-37 and instead of counting 12 as I am doing as per the god's command (which is the ONLY possible way) you are counting 12.36826621.
You are cheating by dropping a month.
Likewise one can also cheat by dropping .36826621
Quote
This way you would allow the hunting restrictions to be violated. You don't believe in the hunting restrictions or in the god when he tells you that you have to count EXACTLY 12 "shahr" every year and not 12.36826621. The "restricted months" according to you will be violated every single year and not just every other year like the pagans did.
5:2 ...when you have completed the Hajj, you are free to hunt.
I believe restriction on hunting is to preserve the game in the area during Hajj -- too many people.
Where does it say 12 months has to equal exactly a solar year?
1 lunar cycle = 29.53059 days
1 solar year = 365.242199 days
How can we have .242199 days?
I'm still researching although ruled out full moon ? it?s nonsensical.
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMNO, you are clearly evading the issue and not reading the verse correctly.
This same twisting fanatics use to condone sex with 9 year olds.
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an
It is again not my problem that you and the Christian missionaries that you are trying to apologize to are unable to read that the whole passage is talking about "nisa'a" which means women not girls. You are the only one on this thread who is talking about sex with a 9 year old. Where did you get such a perverted idea? You are obviously spending too much time reading baseless Christian missionary propaganda and it is clearly affecting your judgment. You are sounding just as pathetic and apolegetic as Sunnis who can't read the word "nisaa" because of their Hadiths which promote pedophilia.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM65:4 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth...
The verse covers:
1. Those with irregular cycles, ?if you became doubtful/suspicious?
False. Those who have irregular cycles didn't "
despair from the menstruation". They still get them no matter how irregular. When they stop getting them completely then they have
despaired from getting them (gave up).
Also, besides being irrelevant since the passage is talking about "women", a 9 year old is far from "despaired". She still has a life full of menstruations to look forward to.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM2. Those who do not menstruate (menopause)
Yes those women are the ones who have despaired of menstruations. Last I checked no woman I know ever went through menopause and then sometime later suddenly restarted to menstruate. So she has truly "despaired" given up on menstruations.
Also, the women who have some reproductive problem and therefore never menstruated do not menstruate.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM3. Pregnant women
Last I checked no woman I know got pregnant and despaired of menstruation ever again because she was pregnant.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM20% of women have irregular menstrual timing issues and are told to wait 3 months
This is your nonsensical interpretation based on your lack of understanding of the word "despaired" and preconceptions from the Hadiths.
Irregular or not irregular they are told to wait for 3 menstruations. The word "irregular" is no where to be found in any of the passages that discuss this subject. Your apolegetic attitude towards the great reading is based entirely on Sunni preconceptions from Hadiths.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMO? I see full moons are individual events -- what is the word for month or is there such a word in Quran?
There is no word for "month" in the great reading. Pre-quranic inscriptions often use the words "warkh" or "yarkh" as meaning "month". For example, see "yarkh" used below:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM2:217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it...
Explain how one can fight/not fight in ?an event? of ONE full moon? How much time is that?
2:217 clearly says that this event has no bearing on stopping fighting or continuing to fight.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM58:4 And he who finds not must fast two successive full moons...
Two successive full moon ?events? is exactly 1 lunar cycle 29.53059 days, right?
You are right. Full moons occur on average every 29.53059 day. So full-moon to full-moon is either going to be 29 or 30 days (see my table above).
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMYes a continuous count of 12...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12...
NOT
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 SKIP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
This is false. You still can't understand the difference between count and number in the great reading. There is no such thing as a continuous count of 12. In order for you to count, you have to have some set that you are counting out of. This set is the solar year. The lunar cycle is not 12 units of anything. So in a solar year as a set that you are counting out of (not absolute number), it goes like this:
SUMMER SOLSTICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 (SKIP) SUMMER SOLSTICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 SUMMER SOLSTICE...
This naturally, automatically and effortlessly adjusts the lunar cycle to make it in sync with the seasons so that hunting restrictions are not violated.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMYou are cheating by dropping a month.
Likewise one can also cheat by dropping .36826621
I am not cheating. I am putting my faith in the god and listening to his advice to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons in a solar year (even when I see 13).
You can try to drop .36826621 if you want and count only 12 "months" as the god told you. However, you will end up going out of sync with the lunar cycle and now your lunar cycle will be completely disconnected from your "months". You can only count in whole integer units if you want to maintain both the lunar and solar cycles in sync. This is indisputable.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM5:2 ...when you have completed the Hajj, you are free to hunt.
The word "hajj" doesn't occur in 5:2. You are conjuring up your own scripture to justify your baseless position.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMI believe restriction on hunting is to preserve the game in the area during Hajj -- too many people.
Another baseless belief.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMWhere does it say 12 months has to equal exactly a solar year?
Months are not even mentioned in the great reading, let alone say that they are equal anything.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM1 lunar cycle = 29.53059 days
1 solar year = 365.242199 days
How can we have .242199 days?
We can't. This is why the western solar calendar has a leap year every four years. Otherwise the seasons would start to slowly shift.
On the other hand 17:12 clearly tells us that the counting of the years is based on the time between the solstices. This is the perfect method of counting years and it doesn't require leap years or any other manmade devices.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PMI'm still researching although ruled out full moon ? it?s nonsensical.
Keep researching and you will see that it is not.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2008, 08:41:52 PM
Irregular or not irregular they are told to wait for 3 menstruations. The word "irregular" is no where to be found in any of the passages that discuss this subject. Your apolegetic attitude towards the great reading is based entirely on Sunni preconceptions from Hadiths.
Please answer simple questions without inferring about my preconceptions.
65:4 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months,
and those who did not menstruateHOW CAN A WOMAN WITH IRREGULAR/MISSED MENTRUATIONS KNOW TO WAIT 3 MENTRUATIONS?
Mentruations are not consistent like clocks or full moons and vary depending on the individual.
Secondary amenorrhea.
no periods for three to six months or longer. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581/DSECTION=causes
Secondary amenorrhea is much more common than primary amenorrhea. Many possible causes of secondary amenorrhea exist:
Breast-feeding.
Stress.
Illness.
Hormonal imbalance.
Low body weight.
Excessive exercise.
Thyroid malfunction.
Pituitary tumor.
Premature menopause.
Therefore -- they wait 3 months!
Quote2:217 clearly says that this event has no bearing on stopping fighting or continuing to fight.
What does it say then, what's the event, and how long does it last, a full moon? Translate for us...
2:217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it, say: "Fighting/killing in it...
2:194 The full moon, the restricted, with the full moon, the restricted, and the God's ordered prohibitions...
QuoteSo full-moon to full-moon is either going to be 29 or 30 days (see my table above).
So that makes all verses which say 4 full moons really 3 months and 1 full moon 1 day.
QuoteThe word "hajj" doesn't occur in 5:2. You are conjuring up your own scripture to justify your baseless position.
Another baseless belief.
Like full moon?
5:2 But when you finish the pilgramage (lets call it the "event"), you may hunt
It's not baseless and has to do with logistics, 100s of thousands of people will eat every animal in the visinity.
QuoteKeep researching and you will see that it is not.
I will?
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PMPlease answer simple questions without inferring about my preconceptions.
Your preconceptions are what is driving you. Why did you mention 9 year old girls as opposed to 10 or 11? It is called preconceptions. Why can't you get your ego to admit to the indisputable fact that "nisa'a" means women and not girls? Preconceptions.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PM65:4 And those who became despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate
HOW CAN A WOMAN WITH IRREGULAR/MISSED MENTRUATIONS KNOW TO WAIT 3 MENTRUATIONS?
Mentruations are not consistent like clocks or full moons and vary depending on the individual.
Secondary amenorrhea. no periods for three to six months or longer.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581/DSECTION=causes
Secondary amenorrhea is much more common than primary amenorrhea. Many possible causes of secondary amenorrhea exist:
Breast-feeding.
Stress.
Illness.
Hormonal imbalance.
Low body weight.
Excessive exercise.
Thyroid malfunction.
Pituitary tumor.
Premature menopause.
Therefore -- they wait 3 months!
No they don't. This is your own conjecture. The only condition for waiting three full-moons is if they despaired from menstruation. There is nothing about irregular menstrution in the passage let alone that gives them any exemption. Show me the word "irregular" in 65:4. So even if they get a period every three months, they still have to count them because a period every three months is not "despaired from ever mensturating again".
As for those women who never menstruated (because of a biological problem) or are pregnant, their waiting period is the gestation period.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PMWhat does it say then, what's the event, and how long does it last, a full moon? Translate for us...
2:217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted, fighting in it, say: "Fighting/killing in it...
2:194 The full moon, the restricted, with the full moon, the restricted, and the God's ordered prohibitions...
The god tells us that we have to count 4 restricted full-moons (9:36). This is the same like counting menstruations. When the woman counts a menstruation she can't remarry until the three are over. How come you are smart enough to figure the waiting period according to counting the event of the menstruation but you suddenly play dumb when it comes to figuring out the restricted period according to the event of the full-moon? According to your logic, a divorcee would not marry when she gets a menstruation but she can marry between say the first and second menstruation as long as she get divorced by the second one and so on. Come on Nun, surely you are smarter than this.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PMSo that makes all verses which say 4 full moons really 3 months and 1 full moon 1 day.
No, the full moon is a marker. It is not a continuous month or even 1 day. This is the same as three menstruations are not continuous bleeding by the woman for three months. So the restricted full moon only signals the beginning of the restricted period but the full-moon itself doesn't last the whole month. So hunting is restricted all days between it and the next restricted full moon.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PMLike full moon?
Blame Classical Arabic dictionaries. They clearly said that "shahr" means "full-moon" long before I was born. Maybe you think it is baseless because you believe that somehow I traveled back in time and conspired with their authors and invented this meaning.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PM5:2 But when you finish the pilgramage (lets call it the "event"), you may hunt
It's not baseless and has to do with logistics, 100s of thousands of people will eat every animal in the visinity.
Can you read Arabic or even a transliteration? Can you show me where the word "pilgrimage" is in 5:2? You are going beyond baseless. You are now inventing your own scripture that says what you like to imagine.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 10:40:36 PMI will?
Yes.
Notice that you are not contesting anymore that we have to count exactly 12 full-moons (9:36) in a solar year (17:12) to maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons and not violate the hunting restrictions. It is not because you suddenly started to like me or because you want to do me a favor. It is because this amazingly simple and elegant mechanism is indisputable. The only astonishing question in my mind is how come no one thought of this before.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Nun,
The discussion that has ensued between me, you and Ayman has more than clarified this issue for me.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:30:48 AM
2:185 ...so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it
Who testifies/makes a conscious intention to fast the month, so he should fast it.
5:111 ...they said: "We believe and witness/testify with that we truly (are) submitters."
I highlighted the key word in the verse that you bring and again, this way of using 'shaheda' is not consistent with how it's used in 2:185 which is without 'that' nor 'against/upon'. Even if you are unable to read the arabic, those keys words are translated into English and this is why. The verse isn't, 'so whoever amongst you witnesses '
against/ upon' the shahr then let him fast it', NOR, 'so whoever amongst you witnesses '
that' the shahr then let him fast it'. As you see, this doesn't even make sense in English nor is it accepted since the corresponding words in arabic are not there. I gave these examples, please read them and tell me if it's allowed to interchange such verses, hence the meaning of witness?
If verses, w,y, and z used 'witness' with 'that or against' and verses t,u, and v don't, and thus they have a variance in meaning, CLEARLY, then how can you take how 'witness' is used in w, y and z and superimpose that onto t, u and v??? What you are really doing then, if you insist on looking at witness in 2:185 like this, is ADDING WORDS to the god's, LAA YAJUUZ, NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE LEAST, be warned.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 11:30:48 AM
Fasting is during days (dawn to sunset)
It does not say to fast a full moon which lasts a moment during days and nights.
I'm still researching the exact day to start.
This is also understood when one uses 'shahr' as 'full moon' since it's something to 'witness (see)' as a MARKER like a woman's menstruation, which is also known that you don't start and stop for the bleeding itself, but wait the whole time in between 3 menstruations.
Also, you're right, it doesn't say ONLY 'fast the 'shahr' but FIRST is the 'witnessing', 'so whoever shaheda the shahr then let him fast it'. If it only said 'fast the shahr' maybe using 'month' might have a case. However, since the 'witnessing' is mentioned, in the seeing sense (I brought my proof for this), this is the big clue for 'full moon' and against 'month'. Also, if you use, 'month', then it still needs a starting time. Most who use 'month' seem to say that the beginning is the 'new crescent', which is however not mentioned in this verse. ??? Can we just add that to the verse? Some do, I seek refuge with the god from such actions. It's also still something that needs to be 'witnessed' in the SIMPLEST sense, for those who can't calculate or don't use satellites and such. Since the god clearly says 'witness' the shahr, it must mean 'full moon', which makes sense, nothing is left out, it's a recognized arabic meaning of the word and it brings consistency in view of other verses and subjects. I am convinced walhamdulillah.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: Tlepsh on September 19, 2008, 06:01:46 AM
Peace truthseeker11,
I am sure Samia will give her comments and clarify this subject. Thanks to her in advance.
Salaam Tlepsh
Truthseeker is right. Adjectives in Arabic follow the noun they modify unlike Englis where they preceed it.
Quote from: progod on September 18, 2008, 04:38:56 PM
Tlepsh,
THis is incorrect. The root shahira means to be apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known. The noun shahr means moon, full moon, crescent moon, or 29 Islamo-Judaic days.
The root ramada = to be constantly or intensely hot (felt internally or externally).
Haraam means forbidden, prohibited, restricted and holy.
I know that naturally you will argue me on this but I just wanted others to know that you are giving incorrect information. You can save your hands any effort if that is your intent. Secondly your defintion of shahru ramadan can be correct. But neither you nor anyone here understands Arabic grammar enough nor respects the letter of the Quran to know how some of what you claim can be understood by shahru ramadana no matter how incorrect contextually your meanings may be.
Godbless,
Anwar
Salaam Anwar
I am afraid that you too are not correct, but if we have to choose between a verbal noun and a verb as the original word/root, it will definitely be the verbal noun. Scholars of Basra have long settled this matter, arguing that the verb is dependent on time and subject (conjugation), unlike a noun/verbal noun, which is timeless and impersonal.
However, the root, literally, is three (occasionally two or four) letters that are the raw material from which new words, according to a definite pattern, can be derived such as verbs of different forms, adjectives, participles..etc. Moreover what you wrote is not a correct verb. The verb is "shahara", so no much difference between what Tlepsh or you say, since these short vowels do ot show in the root, but are just used to facilitate reading the group of three letters.
Quote from: Samia on September 21, 2008, 06:38:38 AM
Salaam Tlepsh
Truthseeker is right. Adjectives in Arabic follow the noun they modify unlike Englis where they preceed it.
Salam Samia,
Thank you for your clarification. That is right; in Arabic, the adjective follows the noun. As in ?alshahr al3eqaary?. 3eqaar defines shahr.
Here ?ramadhan? defines ?shahr?. Shahr means ?some thing obvious? and ramadhan means, ?suffering? So it is actually ?a suffering obvious thing?.
The form of ?Shahru Ramadan? is same as the form of ?Mu3allimu Saffin?
The meaning of Shahr is clear in ?alshahr al3eqaary?. I took this phrase ?alshahr al3eqaary? from one of your quotes.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Ramadhan has two primary meanings:
1. mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning2. scorching heat
Lane?s Arabic English Lexicon says.
رَمِضْتُ لَهُ
رَمِضْتُ مِنَ الأَمْرِ
اِرْتَمَضْتُ
Means: I was distressed and disquieted because of the thing or I grieved for it
اِرْتَمَض لِفُلانٍ
Means: He grieve for such a one
Another question to you Samia:
الْحَجُّ أَشْهُرٌ مَّعْلُومَاتٌ
Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat
Please comment.
Here ?ma3lumat? defines ?ashhur?. ?Ashhurun ma3lumat? defines ?hajj?
?Ma3lumat? is the plural of ?ma3luma?, which means peace of information. Shahr means declaration as per your definition from ?alshahr al3eqaary?. Therefore ?Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat? means Al hajj is declarations of information. Verse 2.197 continues and says ?Thus whoever decides to take the challenge in these declarations??
فَمَن فَرَضَ فِيهِنَّ الْحَجَّ..
Thank you for your valuable comments.
Salaam Tlepsh
Quote from: Tlepsh on September 21, 2008, 10:08:47 AM
Another question to you Samia:
الْحَجُّ أَشْهُرٌ مَّعْلُومَاتٌ
Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat
Please comment.
Here “ma3lumat” defines “ashhur”. “Ashhurun ma3lumat” defines “hajj”
“Ma3lumat” is the plural of “ma3luma”, which means peace of information. Shahr means declaration as per your definition from “alshahr al3eqaary”. Therefore “Alhajju ashhurun ma3lumat” means Al hajj is declarations of information. Verse 2.197 continues and says “Thus whoever decides to take the challenge in these declarations…”
فَمَن فَرَضَ فِيهِنَّ الْحَجَّ..
Thank you for your valuable comments.
This is an interesting rendition! The only problem is that "ma3luumaat" as "informations" is a modern meaning not found in any classical dictionary. "ma3luuma" means known in a definite way; known as marked, specified; and so here it is an adjective not a noun. Thus it will be: the hajj is defined/marked ashhur.
The other thing is the different plurals for shahr: ashhur and shuhuur. Maybe each of the two meanings of shahr is assigned a different plural. I do not know of such a rule, but there are examples.
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2008, 01:08:25 PM
It is not my problem that you can't understand that we are counting events and not a time period.
The god told us that the "count"/"3idat" is 12 "shahr" (9:36) in a solar year (17:12). The word "count"/"3idat" is different than "3adad"/number and the god doesn't use words haphazardly. The count is about counting. So we count exactly 12 each year and we skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon. This is what 9:36 is clearly saying, otherwise the god would have said the number/"3adad" is 12 and that the year is lunar.
12/0.970224912 = 12.36826621 months NOT 12
So you are violating 12:36-37 and instead of counting 12 as I am doing as per the god's command (which is the ONLY possible way) you are counting 12.36826621. This way you would allow the hunting restrictions to be violated. You don't believe in the hunting restrictions or in the god when he tells you that you have to count EXACTLY 12 "shahr" every year and not 12.36826621. The "restricted months" according to you will be violated every single year and not just every other year like the pagans did.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
So is this how the additional month is used, by not droping the . 37 ( the . 37 is almost 50% ( nearly half a month), thus every other year it would add up to close to a month ( the additional month/ or 13 months in one year )... If I am understandin this correctly. I dont know. And how do we only count 12 months and drop the .37
And I would like some straight answers from you... And not no too long explanations...If you can, tell me what is is that you are trying to say in a couple sentances....I know we learn by reading, but I dont like reading long posts and dont be havin the paitience especially with no proofs. And bring your proofs. Gather all your evedences together. Do this for me.( quranic evedence or the previous Scripyure, or some real facts, about your claims. And we take it from there.
:peace:
Quote from: Samia on September 21, 2008, 10:58:05 AM
Salaam Tlepsh
This is an interesting rendition! The only problem is that "ma3luumaat" as "informations" is a modern meaning not found in any classical dictionary. "ma3luuma" means known in a definite way; known as marked, specified; and so here it is an adjective not a noun. Thus it will be: the hajj is defined/marked ashhur.
The other thing is the different plurals for shahr: ashhur and shuhuur. Maybe each of the two meanings of shahr is assigned a different plural. I do not know of such a rule, but there are examples.
Salam Samia,
The plurals for shahr: ashhur and shuhuur:
Ashhur is mentioned in verses 2.197, 2.226, 2.234, 9.2, 9.5, and 65.4
Shuhuur is mentioned only once and it is in verse 9.36.
9.36
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلاَ تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَآفَّةً وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ
9.36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
The above translation is from Progressive Muslims.
Here "3iddat? is translated to be ?count?. Mr. Ayman translates it to be ?count? too.
In Lanes Lexicon, it is as follows:
3idda = a number collected together; a number collectively. You say ?raaytu 3iddata rijalin? I saw a number of men collected together.
It is very clear that ?3iddat? when used before a plural noun such as ?rijal? or ?shuhuur? it means ?a group of? or ?a collection of? or ?a number of? not ?the count?. For example (a group / a collection / a number) of men or (a group / a collection / a number) of shuhuur.
In the above translation it says: ?four of them are restricted,? God says: ?minha arba3atun hurum?
Minha does not mean ?from them? but means ?from it?. ?Minha? is singular because it represents a ?collection of shuhuur? which is singular.
This ?collection of shuhuur? is the correct system (deen al-qayyim) of God and it is in his record since he created the heavens and earth. This collection (system) is composed of twelve shuhuur. Four of it are hurum (forbidden, unlawful).
The system of God is ?sunnatullah?. There is no change in sunnatullah as in 33.62.
The question is:
Is the collection of shuhuur the sunnatullah composed of twelve declarations of which four is forbidden such as ?shirk?, ?killing a self unlawfully?, ?fowahish? and ?taking orphan?s money??
Please compare ?alshahr al3eqaary? to ?alshahr alharam?
Please comment. Thank you.
Peace Umm,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 21, 2008, 06:35:09 AM
If verses, w,y, and z used 'witness' with 'that or against' and verses t,u, and v don't, and thus they have a variance in meaning, CLEARLY, then how can you take how 'witness' is used in w, y and z and superimpose that onto t, u and v??? What you are really doing then, if you insist on looking at witness in 2:185 like this, is ADDING WORDS to the god's, LAA YAJUUZ, NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE LEAST, be warned.
Please write clearly and logically not in garbled cryptology.
Example...
2:185...so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should fast it...
How do we fast
the full moon?
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2008, 02:29:20 AMYour preconceptions are what is driving you. Why did you mention 9 year old girls as opposed to 10 or 11? It is called preconceptions. Why can't you get your ego to admit to the indisputable fact that "nisa'a" means women and not girls? Preconceptions.
This is what I wrote...
QuoteThis same twisting fanatics use to condone sex with 9 year olds.
Why do you preconceive I agree with FANATICS who twist verses?
Of course the verse is about woman; one can only divorce a woman.
QuoteSo even if they get a period every three months, they still have to count them because a period every three months is not "despaired from ever mensturating again".
You completely missed it!
Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran
65:4
And those (F) who became infertile/despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months,
and those (F) who did not menstruate,
and (those) of the pregnant...
How many ?and those? (waalla-ee) are in the above verse?
How many different groups of women?
According to you (women who do not menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a full moon she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a full moon she waits 3 months
How can the same woman wait 2 or 3 months?
According to you how long should women with irregular menses wait...
IF menses is every 3 to 5 weeks?
9:2 So travel in the earth four full moons
IF day before a full moon 3 months
IF day after a full moon 4 months
How absurd contradictive and inconsistent.
QuoteBlame Classical Arabic dictionaries. They clearly said that "shahr" means "full-moon" long before I was born.
What else do they say "shahr" means?
QuoteYou are now inventing your own scripture that says what you like to imagine.
Exactly describes the "fantasies" you love to imagine.
QuoteNotice that you are not contesting anymore that we have to count exactly 12 full-moons (9:36) in a solar year (17:12) to maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons and not violate the hunting restrictions. It is not because you suddenly started to like me or because you want to do me a favor. It is because this amazingly simple and elegant mechanism is indisputable. The only astonishing question in my mind is how come no one thought of this before.
There you go presuming again. You are right; futile to discuss any longer.
Full moon, so nonsensical -- who wouda thunk it!
Peace
Peace Tlepsh,
Quote from: Tlepsh on September 21, 2008, 02:05:15 PMIn Lanes Lexicon, it is as follows:
3idda = a number collected together; a number collectively. You say ?raaytu 3iddata rijalin? I saw a number of men collected together.
What does Lane say about "3iddat
AL-rijjal", if anything?
Can you tell Samia, Truthseeker and me what you think the difference is between "3iddat
AL-shuhoor" and "3iddat shuhoor"?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Anthony,
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 21, 2008, 12:54:02 PMSo is this how the additional month is used, by not droping the . 37 ( the . 37 is almost 50% ( nearly half a month), thus every other year it would add up to close to a month ( the additional month/ or 13 months in one year )... If I am understandin this correctly. I dont know. And how do we only count 12 months and drop the .37
If you count "months" then things will never add up. If you drop .37 then you are out of sync with the lunar cycle and your "months" are not based on the moon anymore. The .37 is almost .33 or 1/3 of a lunar month NOT half. So to add up to a whole of a month you would need to intercalate every three years (not every other year). However, even this will be inacurate over a longer period since it is .37 and not .33 so you will eventually be out of sync again. More importantly, you would be violating 9:36 TWO out of THREE years (where you are counting 12.37 "months" until you accumulate the approximate "1" in year 3).
THE ONLY WAY you can have a solar year with a lunar cycle that is in sync with the seasons is if you count EXACTLY 12 full-moons EVERY SINGLE year (9:36) and not "months". It is amazingly simple. Please see my earlier post above where I list the actual full-moons from 2005-2010 and see how simple it is to count 12 full-moons every single year and automatically sync with the solar year as per 9:36 and 17:12:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg178453#msg178453
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 21, 2008, 12:54:02 PMAnd I would like some straight answers from you... And not no too long explanations...If you can, tell me what is is that you are trying to say in a couple sentances....I know we learn by reading, but I dont like reading long posts and dont be havin the paitience especially with no proofs. And bring your proofs. Gather all your evedences together. Do this for me.( quranic evedence or the previous Scripyure, or some real facts, about your claims. And we take it from there.
If you are looking for real facts without much reading then see the real full-moons from 2005-2010 here and see how based on 9:36 and 17:12 the lunar cycle is perfectly in sync with the seasons:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg178453#msg178453
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Tlepsh
Thank you for bringing up this difference in the two ways "3idda" is used. I think it will help know the difference between "ashhur" and "shuhuur".
First of all, 3idda is a verbal noun (مصدر ) of the verb "3adda" which means to count.
There's a difference in meaning between "3iddat rijaal" and "3iddat ar-rijaal" where the second part of the construction is definite or indefinite (rijaal and arrijaal). The first means "
a counted number of men" and the second means "
the count of men". Notice how one construction is indefinite and the other is definite as a whole.
Analogically, we say "3iddata ashhur" meaning a counted amount/number (usually not a big number) of ashhur, and "3iddatul shuhuur" which means the count of shuhuur. I can say that I understand from these two differences that shuhuur is of a bigger amount than ashhur, or shuhuur is the collective plural, whereas ashhur is a countable plural. Example of "baqara: a cow": From 3 to ten cows we say "baqaraat", but we also have the collective plural "baqar" without a definite count/amount/number.
Minha: It can correctly mean "from them" if it refers to non-human plural. The plural of non humans is treated like a singular feminine according to the Arabic rules. But you are also right, if we consider that the pronoun refers to the "3idda": counting four restricted ashhur out of the count of shuhuur.
I would not say "aldeenul qayyem" is the same as "sunnatullaah"
QuotePlease compare ?alshahr al3eqaary? to ?alshahr alharam?
Only when "shahr" is in the singular. When it's "ashhur" or "shuhuur", it can only mean full moon.
Peace everyone,
I think there is a misunderstanding of 65:4. It is describing two categories of women, not three.
A woman who has been menstruating before and stopped menstruating (secondary amenorrhea) could be for two reasons:
1. Pregnancy
2. Reasons other than pregnancy
The first interim (3 full-moons) is for women who stopped menstruating but there is doubt whether they are pregnant or not. They will wait for 3 full-moons before divorce is finalized.
The second interim is for women who have stopped menstruating because of pregnancy, i.e. they definitely know they are pregnant. Their interim is until they give birth.
65:4 As for the women who have despaired from menstruation, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. And for those whose menstruation has ceased, and those who are pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.
If "those whose menstruation has ceased" is a group separate from "those who are pregnant", then it would lead to the nonsensical interpretation that those who are not menstruating without being pregnant will wait until they give birth ??? "Wa" in Arabic does not always separate two different categories but can also link two attributes of the same category. The context will clarify the usage.
The above bolded part is referring to the same category, i.e. women who have stopped menstruating because of pregnancy. It should be read as "those whose menstruation has ceased THAT IS those who are pregnant".
Peace Nun,
Sorry if it was over simplified for you.
If verses, w,y, and z used 'witness' with 'that or against' and verses t,u, and v don't, and thus they have a variance in meaning, CLEARLY, then how can you take how 'witness' is used in w, y and z and superimpose that onto t, u and v??? What you are really doing then, if you insist on looking at witness in 2:185 like this, is ADDING WORDS to the god's, LAA YAJUUZ, NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE LEAST, be warned.
Here it is again:
If several verses use the verb 'witness' with the words, 'that or against' and other verses use 'witness' without 'that or against', which shows a difference in meaning, then how can you take 'witness' as used in the verses with the additional 'that or against' and superimpose that meaning onto verses that use 'witness' without 'that or against???
For example, some verses say 'bear witness against (something)', OR, 'bear witness that (such and such)'. In verse 2:185 and those similar it's just 'witness (as in seeing) something'. Please tell me that you see the difference. If you insist on looking at 'witness (as in seeing) something' as in 2:185 the same as it's used in the first examples, with an additional 'that' or 'against', then you are ADDING WORDS to the god's! I hope this is clear enough now. If you claim that what you are doing is allowed, to interchange the usage of this word as you feel like, then prove it with the god's book. As for now, His words are refuting you.
As far as how to fast a full moon, we've shown what is meant and I can't be anymore clear. If you can't understand this, then ask yourself how does a woman wait 3 menstrual cycles when they start and stop as well? I hope that you can understand what it means to use a MARKER for a starting period and ending period and you are not just being stubborn about this.
Umm Tariq
Peace truthseeker 11,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 21, 2008, 03:37:52 PM
65:4 As for the women who have despaired from menstruation, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. And for those whose menstruation has ceased, and those who are pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.
If "those whose menstruation has ceased" is a group separate from "those who are pregnant", then it would lead to the nonsensical interpretation that those who are not menstruating without being pregnant will wait until they give birth ??? "Wa" in Arabic does not always separate two different categories but can also link two attributes of the same category. The context will clarify the usage.
The above bolded part is referring to the same category, i.e. women who have stopped menstruating because of pregnancy. It should be read as "those whose menstruation has ceased THAT IS those who are pregnant".
I can't agree with your translation of this verse. First, maybe it's just me but doesn't
who have despaired from menstruation say the same as
those whose menstruation has ceased? However this part of the verse that you are translating as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' in arabic is '
lam yahidna', those who DIDN'T/ HAVEN'T menstruated. In this case I would take the 'wa' as the additional rule for women who are pregnant, to wait until they give birth, which is reiterated again in verse 6. Did you notice that? Can 'lam yahidna' be translated as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' or does this change how you look at it now? I just had to mention this just to make sure that I am not missing something.
Peace,
Umm Tariq
Peace every one;
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 20, 2008, 06:03:15 PM
5:2 ...when you have completed the Hajj, you are free to hunt.
I believe restriction on hunting is to preserve the game in the area during Hajj -- too many people.
Peace Nun de plume:
I too believe that hunting is not allawed only when we are going to Hajj. In other words, we can hunt during the 4 restricted months, but we cann't Hunt if we in "Hurm" condition (when performing Hajj). Here are the verses that supports that:
يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ أَوۡفُواْ بِٱلۡعُقُودِۚ أُحِلَّتۡ لَكُم بَہِيمَةُ ٱلۡأَنۡعَـٰمِ إِلَّا مَا يُتۡلَىٰ عَلَيۡكُمۡ غَيۡرَ مُحِلِّى ٱلصَّيۡدِ وَأَنتُمۡ حُرُمٌۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَحۡكُمُ مَا يُرِيدُ (١) يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لَا تُحِلُّواْ شَعَـٰٓٮِٕرَ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا ٱلشَّہۡرَ ٱلۡحَرَامَ وَلَا ٱلۡهَدۡىَ وَلَا ٱلۡقَلَـٰٓٮِٕدَ وَلَآ ءَآمِّينَ ٱلۡبَيۡتَ ٱلۡحَرَامَ يَبۡتَغُونَ فَضۡلاً۬ مِّن رَّبِّہِمۡ وَرِضۡوَٲنً۬اۚ وَإِذَا حَلَلۡتُمۡ فَٱصۡطَادُواْۚ وَلَا يَجۡرِمَنَّكُمۡ شَنَـَٔانُ قَوۡمٍ أَن صَدُّوڪُمۡ عَنِ ٱلۡمَسۡجِدِ ٱلۡحَرَامِ أَن تَعۡتَدُواْۘ وَتَعَاوَنُواْ عَلَى ٱلۡبِرِّ وَٱلتَّقۡوَىٰۖ وَلَا تَعَاوَنُواْ عَلَى ٱلۡإِثۡمِ وَٱلۡعُدۡوَٲنِۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَۖ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ شَدِيدُ ٱلۡعِقَابِ (٢)
O ye who believe! fulfil obligations. Lawful unto you are all animals with the exceptions named: but animals of the chase (hunting) are forbidden while ye are in the Sacred; for Allah doth command according to His Will and Plan. (1)
O ye who believe! violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the Sacred House, seeking of the bounty, and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the Sacred Precincts, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression. Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment. (5-2)
In the above verses, God says not to hunt when we are "Hurm" (in a Sacred condition). But when such condition is over, it is Ok to Hunt.
يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لَيَبۡلُوَنَّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ بِشَىۡءٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلصَّيۡدِ تَنَالُهُ ۥۤ أَيۡدِيكُمۡ وَرِمَاحُكُمۡ لِيَعۡلَمَ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَخَافُهُ ۥ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِۚ فَمَنِ ٱعۡتَدَىٰ بَعۡدَ ذَٲلِكَ فَلَهُ ۥ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ۬ (٩٤) يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لَا تَقۡتُلُواْ ٱلصَّيۡدَ وَأَنتُمۡ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ وَمَن قَتَلَهُ ۥ مِنكُم مُّتَعَمِّدً۬ا فَجَزَآءٌ۬ مِّثۡلُ مَا قَتَلَ مِنَ ٱلنَّعَمِ يَحۡكُمُ بِهِۦ ذَوَا عَدۡلٍ۬ مِّنكُمۡ هَدۡيَۢا بَـٰلِغَ ٱلۡكَعۡبَةِ أَوۡ كَفَّـٰرَةٌ۬ طَعَامُ مَسَـٰكِينَ أَوۡ عَدۡلُ ذَٲلِكَ صِيَامً۬ا لِّيَذُوقَ وَبَالَ أَمۡرِهِۦۗ عَفَا ٱللَّهُ عَمَّا سَلَفَۚ وَمَنۡ عَادَ فَيَنتَقِمُ ٱللَّهُ مِنۡهُۗ وَٱللَّهُ عَزِيزٌ۬ ذُو ٱنتِقَامٍ (٩٥) أُحِلَّ لَكُمۡ صَيۡدُ ٱلۡبَحۡرِ وَطَعَامُهُ ۥ مَتَـٰعً۬ا لَّكُمۡ وَلِلسَّيَّارَةِۖ وَحُرِّمَ عَلَيۡكُمۡ صَيۡدُ ٱلۡبَرِّ مَا دُمۡتُمۡ حُرُمً۬اۗ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ ٱلَّذِىٓ إِلَيۡهِ تُحۡشَرُونَ (٩٦) ۞ جَعَلَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡكَعۡبَةَ ٱلۡبَيۡتَ ٱلۡحَرَامَ قِيَـٰمً۬ا لِّلنَّاسِ وَٱلشَّہۡرَ ٱلۡحَرَامَ وَٱلۡهَدۡىَ وَٱلۡقَلَـٰٓٮِٕدَۚ ذَٲلِكَ لِتَعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَعۡلَمُ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بِكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ عَلِيمٌ (٩٧)
O ye who believe! Allah doth but make a trial of you in a little matter of game well within reach of your hands and your lances, that He may test who feareth Him unseen: any who transgress thereafter, will have a grievous penalty. (94) O ye who believe! kill not game while Sacred (Hurm). If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'bah of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty: For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution. (95) Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food― for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game:― as long as ye are in Sacred. And fear Allah, to whom ye shall be gathered back. (96) Allah made the Ka'bah the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: that ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things. (7-97)
In the above verses God says if someone Kills a game durng his Sacred condition, He will need to compensate by animal that is equivalent to the one he killed; And He will need to Compensate IN KA'BAH.
Thus No one can Hunt while in Sacred Condition, and not While the 4 Sacred months. And if one Hunts and kills an animal, he needs to pay his punishment by the Ka'bah only; hence, he is in Hajj.
What do you think?
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMWaalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran
65:4 And those (F) who became infertile/despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those (F) who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant...
Why do you cut the translation of 65:4 short. Can't you read the rest of the passage?
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMHow many ?and those? (waalla-ee) are in the above verse?
How many different groups of women?
There are three kinds of women divided into two groups:
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons:
1. Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period:
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMAccording to you (women who do not menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a full moon she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a full moon she waits 3 months
How can the same woman wait 2 or 3 months?
Same as according to you (women who menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 months
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMAccording to you how long should women with irregular menses wait...
IF menses is every 3 to 5 weeks?
3 menstruations.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PM9:2 So travel in the earth four full moons
IF day before a full moon 3 months
IF day after a full moon 4 months
Same as according to you (women who menstrate) if they had to wait four instead of three menstruations...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 3 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 4 months
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMHow absurd contradictive and inconsistent.
By your measure, the god telling the women who menstruate to wait for three menstruations is equally absurd contradictive and inconsistent since it is an indisputable fact that:
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 months
I think that you are the one who is absurd contradictive and inconsistent. You haven't even told us what your "month" is and you instead keep providing a lame excuse that "you are working on it". Well, if you spend more time working on it and less time spewing baseless nonsense and throwing tantrums you would have been done by now.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMWhat else do they say "shahr" means?
Notice that you are not arguing anymore that "shahr" meaning full-moon is baseless.
On the other hand, you have still not proven your baseless claim that "pilgrimage" is mentioned in 5:2.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 21, 2008, 02:33:42 PMExactly describes the "fantasies" you love to imagine.
There you go presuming again. You are right; futile to discuss any longer.
There is no "presuming" on my part. It is an indisputable fact that the word "pilgrimage" is not mentioned in 5:1-2 and it is only in your fantasy. It is not my problem that you can't read.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Umm Tariq and Truthseeker,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 21, 2008, 06:21:17 PM
I can't agree with your translation of this verse. First, maybe it's just me but doesn't who have despaired from menstruation say the same as those whose menstruation has ceased? However this part of the verse that you are translating as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' in arabic is 'lam yahidna', those who DIDN'T/ HAVEN'T menstruated. In this case I would take the 'wa' as the additional rule for women who are pregnant, to wait until they give birth, which is reiterated again in verse 6. Did you notice that? Can 'lam yahidna' be translated as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' or does this change how you look at it now? I just had to mention this just to make sure that I am not missing something.
I agree with you. I was just about to answer Truthseeker but you beat me to it. There are three types of women divided into 2 groups in 65:4:
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons:
1. Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period:
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Sorry you have confused me now too. :confused: Are you saying, as per your group 2, that 'and those who didn't/ haven't menstruated' should wait the gestation period of those who are pregnant? Maybe you made a typo? I would make:
group 1 ---> wait 3 full moons: 1. those who have despaired of menstruation 2. those who didn't/ haven't menstruated
Group 2 are those who are pregnant, their 'ajl', specified term til completion, is when they deliver, 'an yada'na hamlahunna'. Do we agree on this?
Umm Tariq
Peace Umm Tariq and Ayman,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 21, 2008, 06:21:17 PM
I can't agree with your translation of this verse. First, maybe it's just me but doesn't who have despaired from menstruation say the same as those whose menstruation has ceased? However this part of the verse that you are translating as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' in arabic is 'lam yahidna', those who DIDN'T/ HAVEN'T menstruated. In this case I would take the 'wa' as the additional rule for women who are pregnant, to wait until they give birth, which is reiterated again in verse 6. Did you notice that? Can 'lam yahidna' be translated as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' or does this change how you look at it now? I just had to mention this just to make sure that I am not missing something.
Thank you for the correction.
FIRST POSSIBILITY:
65:4 As for the women who have despaired from menstruation (meaning those whose menstruation has ceased), if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three full-moons, and for those who did not menstruate. And those who are pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.
The full stop is after "lam yahidna".
Group 1: women with primary amenorrhea (those who never menstruated), and those with secondary amenorrhea (those whose menstruation has stopped for reasons other than pregnancy but they are not sure about it).
Group 2: pregnant women (who are 100 % sure of pregnancy).
SECOND POSSIBILITY:
What if "lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" can mean "those who haven't menstruated because of pregnancy". In that case it would read "those who haven't menstruated THAT IS those who are pregnant". The "wa" here between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali" would not indicate two categories but would separate two attributes of the same category. The full stop in this case would be before "lam yahidna". What do you think ?
The translation in that case would be:
65:4 As for the women who have despaired from menstruation (meaning those whose menstruation has ceased), if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three full-moons. And for those who have not menstruated, that is those who are pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.
If this is true then:
Group 1 describes women whose menstruation has stopped for reasons other than pregnancy but they are not sure about it.
Group 2 describes women whose menstruation has stopped because of pregnancy (who are 100 % sure of pregnancy).
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Ayman,Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2008, 06:55:24 PM
There are three types of women divided into 2 groups in 65:4:
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons:
1. Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period:
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.
How can those who didn't menstruate wait gestation period? They are not pregnant!
That is what was confusing me initially and there were two possibilities. The one that I mentioned initially or the one Umm Tariq mentioned. I tend to agree with Umm Tariq's understanding because of "lam yahidna" meaning "those who didn't menstruate, unless "lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" can mean "those who haven't menstruated because of pregnancy". In that case it would read "those who haven't menstruated THAT IS those who are pregnant". What do you think?
Which translation is correct grammatically?
Samia's input is invited also.
Peace all:
Here are anoter signs from God regarding calculating the Month; as you know the Bible, the Old Testement and Quran are the Books of our Creator. Please read the following to understand that the month is calculated from Waxing Crescent to the next Waxing Crescent in the three books; also you will note why Ayman is trying to discount the 13 moon from the year, as the Jews and Christian did.
http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html
http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom7.htm
Happy Rammadn and peace to you all
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 22, 2008, 12:04:20 AM
Peace all:
Here are anoter signs from God regarding calculating the Month; as you know the Bible, the Old Testement and Quran are the Books of our Creator. Please read the following to understand that the month is calculated from Waxing Crescent to the next Waxing Crescent in the three books; also you will note why Ayman is trying to discount the 13 moon from the year, as the Jews and Christian did.
http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html
http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom7.htm
Happy Rammadn and peace to you all
Two questions:
1. Where in the Quran does it say "waxing crescent"? All it says is "crescents" in 2:189
2. Which of the 24-26 crescents will you use as a marker to start fasting per The Quran?
If you cannot bring evidence from The Quran for answers to the above then please don't bother to reply. The Quran authenticates the previous scriptures, not the other way around.
Peace everyone,
Excerpt from one of the links Belal provided:
"The Rabbis would structure elaboate rules as to what constituted an appearance of the new moon, how many witnesses to the event were necessary, what qualifications those witnesses must possess, etc."
This shows how hard it is to accurately witness a new moon. The current sectarians who follow the Jews instead of The Quran have the same problem of determining the new moon every year and it is an empiric fact that there is always a dispute among them about the appearance of the new moon.
Now let's see what The Quran says:
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2:185)
Only self witnessing is enough per The Quran and the full-moon is much easier to witness than the elusive new moon. No elaborate rules needed, no multiple witnesses needed, and no qualifications needed!
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 22, 2008, 12:38:49 AM
Peace everyone,
Excerpt from one of the links Belal provided:
"The Rabbis would structure elaboate rules as to what constituted an appearance of the new moon, how many witnesses to the event were necessary, what qualifications those witnesses must possess, etc."
This shows how hard it is to accurately witness a new moon. The current sectarians who follow the Jews instead of The Quran have the same problem of determining the new moon every year and it is an empiric fact that there is always a dispute among them about the appearance of the new moon.
Now let's see what The Quran says:
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2:185)
Only self witnessing is enough per The Quran and the full-moon is much easier to witness than the elusive new moon. No elaborate rules needed, no multiple witnesses needed, and no qualifications needed!
So, you don't deny that calculating the Month starts from the New Moon (Waxing crescent) in all the Books.
So, why do you want to reject God's commendment? Is not enough for you to know that is what God's wants? Why cann't you say "We Hear and we Obay"?
Peace
Peace everyone,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 22, 2008, 01:10:52 AM
So, you don't deny that calculating the Month starts from the New Moon (Waxing crescent) in all the Books.
So, why do you want to reject God's commendment? Is not enough for you to know that is what God's wants? Why cann't you say "We Hear and we Obay"?
The above is a perfect example of fallacy of false premise. :giveup:
Everyone is invited to study the various logical fallacies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Logical_fallacies
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2008, 03:03:41 PM
Peace Tlepsh,
What does Lane say about "3iddat AL-rijjal", if anything?
Can you tell Samia, Truthseeker and me what you think the difference is between "3iddat AL-shuhoor" and "3iddat shuhoor"?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thank you for your comment. You are right.
Yes it says the COUNT.
Peace truthseeker,
It would be nice if someone can explain this from the grammatical angle, whether this 'wa' can be used as an additional description or not but I also know that even in the study of arabic grammar, there is taint (rules that don't agree with the great reading). I agree with this conclusion of yours and it makes the most sense:
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Taking this verse and 2:228 which are about 'divorce', 2:228 covers the case for all who have a menstrual cycle, they use it to count by. I see 65:4 as covering those who don't have a menstrual cycle, due to pregnancy (which is understood) or otherwise, so we have the full moon event to count by or the delivery event to use as an ending. Nice and simple to me. :) Let me know what you think.
Umm Tariq
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2008, 06:48:52 PM
There are three kinds of women divided into two groups:
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons:
1. Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period:
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.
Same as according to you (women who menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 months
3 menstruations.
Same as according to you (women who menstrate) if they had to wait four instead of three menstruations...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 3 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 4 months
By your measure, the god telling the women who menstruate to wait for three menstruations is equally absurd contradictive and inconsistent since it is an indisputable fact that:
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 months
Notice that you are not arguing anymore that "shahr" meaning full-moon is baseless.
It is not my problem that you can't read.
Ayman?s full moon calendar11. APR 20, 2008
April 21 ? divorce Mrs. A (100% in menopause).
May 19, 2008 ? divorce Mrs. B (100% in menopause).
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 9:36)
Summer Solstice 2008
1. JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 2008)
2. AUG 16, 2008
3. SEPT 15, 2008
How many days must each woman wait?
Ayman's answer -- the same as menstruating women!
Which menstruating women?
http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/irregular_menses/irregular_menses.html
The average length of the menstrual cycle is 28 days, however in reality the normal menstrual cycle may vary in length from 26-35 days.1 lunar month is exactly = 29.53059 days
Menstruating women are inconsistent and have little to do with full moons!
9:2 So travel in the earth four full moons
Ayman?s full moon calendar11. APR 20, 2008
April 21 ? incident Mr. A
May 19, 2008 ? incident Mr. B
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 9:36)
Summer Solstice 2008
1. JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 2008)
2. AUG 16, 2008
3. SEPT 15, 2008
How many days does each man travel?
4:92?And whoso finds this beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive full moons?
How many days does each man fast?
Ayman's answer to all the above --
the same as menstruating women! :laugh:
Goodbye and peace be upon you!
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 21, 2008, 12:54:02 PM
Peace Ayman
So is this how the additional month is used, by not droping the . 37 ( the . 37 is almost 50% ( nearly half a month), thus every other year it would add up to close to a month ( the additional month/ or 13 months in one year )... If I am understandin this correctly. I dont know. And how do we only count 12 months and drop the .37
And I would like some straight answers from you... And not no too long explanations...If you can, tell me what is is that you are trying to say in a couple sentances....I know we learn by reading, but I dont like reading long posts and dont be havin the paitience especially with no proofs. And bring your proofs. Gather all your evedences together. Do this for me.( quranic evedence or the previous Scripyure, or some real facts, about your claims. And we take it from there.
:peace:
Salaam Anthonywallace,
You are expecting a short and precise and direct answer from someone who, along with his team is manipulating the verses of the Qur?an by
?Skiping as per 9:36? :confused:
This in an organised attempt to establish a false system where there is no obligation on anyone towards Allah. I have never heard as much nonsense as this where if it?s cloudy no one has to fast, as you missed witnessing the moon. :bravo:
In fact the month should not be taken into consideration as no one witnessed the full moon :yay: so no month if its cloudy, :laugh: Yet this team pretend to ask each other questions and level out all creases by saying ?that makes sense? :hmm. Just go through this thread from the beginning and you will notice how it all started with Ayman proposing a system and few eloquent cronies quizzing him, soon to agree with him.
Now you see a similar team, with new identities, come to establish his deen. They have deliberately ignored solid proof from the Qur?an against their system and their last wordl is "
What does Lane say about."
7:176
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may REFLECT.
:peace:
Peace everyone:
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts: :wow :giveup:
Ad hominem: attacking the personal instead of the argument.
Appeal to emotion: where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Wishful thinking: a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive: where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Judgmental language: It employs insultive, compromettant or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgement.
Straw man argument: is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy: in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning.
Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis)
Package-deal fallacy: when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Existential fallacy: an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution: when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Moving the goalpost: in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Cherry picking: the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
Spotlight fallacy: when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.
Thought-terminating clich?: a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 22, 2008, 08:53:28 AM
Peace truthseeker,
It would be nice if someone can explain this from the grammatical angle, whether this 'wa' can be used as an additional description or not but I also know that even in the study of arabic grammar, there is taint (rules that don't agree with the great reading). I agree with this conclusion of yours and it makes the most sense:
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Taking this verse and 2:228 which are about 'divorce', 2:228 covers the case for all who have a menstrual cycle, they use it to count by. I see 65:4 as covering those who don't have a menstrual cycle, due to pregnancy (which is understood) or otherwise, so we have the full moon event to count by or the delivery event to use as an ending. Nice and simple to me. :) Let me know what you think.
Umm Tariq
Makes sense.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 22, 2008, 11:48:17 AM
Peace everyone:
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts: :wow :giveup:
Ad hominem: attacking the personal instead of the argument.
Appeal to emotion: where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Wishful thinking: a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive: where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Judgmental language: It employs insultive, compromettant or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgement.
Straw man argument: is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy: in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning.
Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis)
Package-deal fallacy: when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Existential fallacy: an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution: when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Moving the goalpost: in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Cherry picking: the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
Spotlight fallacy: when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.
Thought-terminating clich?: a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Agreed :handshake:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 22, 2008, 12:33:55 PM
Attacking and mocking others :& :nope:
Strive hard against those who mock & attack your deen.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 22, 2008, 01:01:44 PM
Strive hard against those who mock & attack your deen.
:peace:
Are you sure they are mocking and attacking your deen :nope: i don?t think so i think they are trying to reach the truth and if someone is not distorting words are meaning of Quran purposely then they be considered innocent and should not be blamed.
:& are you saying that you know what is in their hearts.
Only Allah knows what is in our hearts.
God Bless you
:handshake:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 22, 2008, 01:16:33 PM
Are you sure they are mocking and attacking your deen :nope: i don?t think so i think they are trying to reach the truth and if someone is not distorting words are meaning of Quran purposely then they be considered innocent and should not be blamed.
:& are you saying that you know what is in their hearts.
Only Allah knows what is in our hearts.
God Bless you
:handshake:
Salaam
It would be helpful if you could summarize what truth they or you have reached from their posts?
4:63
These are a people whom God knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them and advise them, and speak to their souls with a clear saying :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 22, 2008, 01:23:35 PM
Salaam
It would be helpful if you could summarize what truth they or you have reached from their posts?
4:63 These are a people whom God knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them and advise them, and speak to their souls with a clear saying
:peace:
:) I said they are trying to reach the truth, 8) :angel:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 22, 2008, 01:28:43 PM
:) I said they are trying to reach the truth, 8) :angel:
I would rather say they are trying to distort the truth and I have no desire to appear angelical to anyone.
:peace:
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 22, 2008, 11:48:17 AM
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts: :wow :giveup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
4:92?And whoso finds this beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive full moons?
Ayman?s full moon calendar11. APR 20, 2008
April 21 ? incident
Mr. AMay 19, 2008 ? incident
Mr. T12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 9:36)
Summer Solstice 2008
1. JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 2008)
How many days does each man fast?
"The same as menstruating women!" :wow :giveup:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/idiocies
id?i?o?cy
n. pl. id?i?o?cies
1. Extreme folly or stupidity.
2. A foolish or stupid utterance or deed.
3. Psychology The state or condition of being an idiot; profound mental retardation.
idiocy
Noun
1. utter stupidity
2. a foolish act or remark
bovinity
the state or quality of being like a cow or ox, especially in the sense of being dull, stolid, and slow-witted. ? bovine, adj.
idiotism
1. the condition of an idiot, especially an extreme degree of mental deficiency, usually a mental age of less than three or four years; idiocy.
2. idiotic conduct or action, especially in a normal person. ? idiotie, adj.
moronism
the condition of being slow or mentally defici?nt. ? moronic, adj.
stultiloquence
Rare. foolish talk or babble.
-Ologies & -Isms.
Noun 1. idiocy - extreme mental retardation
amentia
backwardness, mental retardation, subnormality, slowness, retardation - lack of normal development of intellectual capacities
idiocy
noun foolishness, insanity, lunacy, tomfoolery, inanity, imbecility, senselessness, cretinism, fatuity, abject stupidity, asininity, fatuousness << OPPOSITE wisdom
Peace Umm Tariq and Truthseeker,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 21, 2008, 11:35:53 PMSorry you have confused me now too. :confused: Are you saying, as per your group 2, that 'and those who didn't/ haven't menstruated' should wait the gestation period of those who are pregnant? Maybe you made a typo? I would make:
group 1 ---> wait 3 full moons: 1. those who have despaired of menstruation 2. those who didn't/ haven't menstruated
Group 2 are those who are pregnant, their 'ajl', specified term til completion, is when they deliver, 'an yada'na hamlahunna'. Do we agree on this?
Quote from: Truthseeker11How can those who didn't menstruate wait gestation period? They are not pregnant!
There is no typo. Those who didn't/ haven't menstruated (but didn't DESPAIR of menstruation) should wait the gestation period same as those who are actually pregnant. This is the simplest and most straight forward interpretation of 65:4 without having to insert punctuations that don't make sense or interpret the "wa"/and between the two categories in a strange way. Since those who "didn't menstruate" didn't despair from menstruation, then this is also the only 100% sure way. Of course, everyone knows how long the human gestation period is. Even those who are not pregnant know it. Even men :) know it.
In addition to being straight forward, this is also the only interpretation that guarantees that the waiting period command in 65:4 is not violated so it is nearer to "taqwa"/being careful/forethought.
Peace,
Ayman
This is my understanding of verse 65:4:
I think the first part is clear: Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).
The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?
So we have two categories of women:
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery
After I read 9:36, I continued to the following verse:
9:37 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth: kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray: they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 22, 2008, 12:22:51 AM
Peace Belal,
The Quran authenticates the previous scriptures, not the other way around.
Peace all;
It seams that Ayman and his sect are trying to cover up the Truth that I posted regarding the Month calculation in the Bible and Torah. the following is a Quotion from http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html, which shows that God always wanted the True Submitter to calculate the Month using the Moon Cycel:
The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new [moon]," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 19:1). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 29:6, 1 Sam 20:5, 1 Chron 23:31). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 4:23, Ezek 45:17). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 1:14, Amos 8:5). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel?s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 81:3).
Now; it seams that Ayman and his followers are rejecting the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah.
By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D
Salaaaaam
I have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.
I have been studying his schorching moon theory for the past three years with an open mind, and I must say that over a time I have progressed from giving it "an out side chance" to a "definite possibility", His understanding is still far from being perfect, but seems to be taking the right dirction.
Current debate has certainly helped me cross a threshold where , if i have to pick purely on evidence (only God knows the truth) , I would change to fasting in the summers after the Red Moon.
I must appriciate :bravo: some new comers like ,Tlepsh, Anthony, umme tariq , truth seeker, bellahamad, soof, ahmad belal, and off course our old pals, Nun, samia, Farida ,Afridi and Anwar! You Guys burned Midnight oil , but we benifited for free, so keep it up friends you are doing a great job.
Lastly, Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension. :handshake:
Siki
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:22:59 PM
After I read 9:36, I continued to the following verse:
9:37 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth: kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray: they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?
Peace
May be the ones mentioned in verse 9.34
9.34 O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume people?s money in falsehood, and block them from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
Peace sister Samia,
Thank you for sharing your understanding. I am torn between your understanding and mine of 65:4. I think that both certainly have merits. I think that there are a couple of issues that we need to clarify.
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:13:21 PMThis is my understanding of verse 65:4:
I think the first part is clear: Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).
But what does "desperate" really mean? They (the women) are desperate of menstruation tells me that they completely gave up. So they don't think they will ever have any menstruation (whether in 4, 6, or 100 months). "If
you are in doubt" is not saying that the women themselves are in doubt. If the women thought that they might get the menstruation every 4 or 6 months as you say then they wouldn't be "despaired of menstruation". Also, in this case waiting for the count of three full-moons doesn't accomplish anything. Since they could very well be pregnant. Absent of a pregnancy test, the only way to know if they are pregnant or not is if they start showing the signs of pregnancy which may not necessarily appear within the three full-moons or even longer.
Logically, the only way to guarantee that those women are not pregnant is to either wait for three menstruations or the gestation period, whichever comes first. This leads me to your next point.
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:13:21 PMThe second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?
I think that "women who didn't menstruate" refers to those women who didn't menstruate for any reason (known or unkown) since the time of the divorce. In this case, it is not known if she has amenorrhea or if she is semi menopausal or actually became menopause and the key is that unlike the first group, this woman hasn't DESPAIRED of menstruation.
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:13:21 PMSo we have two categories of women:
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery
But the semi menopausal can't be grouped together with the definite menopausal. The semi menopausal women are actually the ones in more danger of thinking that they are not pegnant while they are. If they are indeed pregnant then interruptions in their menstruation will be seen as normal and they may not feel any effects of the pregnancy until it is too late after the three-full moons. I think that this is why those who didn't menstruate (but didn't despair of menstruation) are grouped together with pregnant women and their waiting period is the gestation period. So here are the categories in order of risk of being pregnant while not knowing (from least risky to most risky):
1. Women who have despaired of menstruation - Least risk - wait is ZERO or the count of 3 full-moons as an extra precaution.
2. Average women who have normal menstruations - Low risk - wait 3 menstruations.
3. Women who didn't menstruate since the divorce but have not despaired of menstruation - High risk - wait gestation period.
4. Women who are pregnant - Risk is realized - wait gestation period.
Please let me know what you think.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace sister Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:22:59 PM
After I read 9:36, I continued to the following verse:
9:37 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth: kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray: they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?
To know who is meant by
those who make lawful what the god restricted we need to know what the god restricted during the restriction period.
So the question is what did the god restrict during the period of the restricted full-moons. He ONLY restricted hunting wild life.
So it is those who make lawful hunting wild life during the restriction period.
Notice how the passage says:
"The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them."For example, Sunnis make the violation of the restriction seem fair by attributing the restriction to preventing the thousands of pilgrims from eating every wild animal in the vicinity of Mecca. Therefore they claim that hunting is not restricted except for the pilgrims during the three days of pilgrimage despite pilgrimage not even being mentioned in relation to the hunting restriction. They even cover what they believe is the truth of their own interpretation of "shahr" since 9:36 specifically says four "shahr" (according to them "months") and not just the few days of their sectarian pilgrimage.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on September 22, 2008, 11:16:07 PMI have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.
It is funny that you mentioned this. I just checked today and Fahad had bumped your old thread all the way up:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.0
It is good to see you back on the forum. :handshake:
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:22:59 PM
After I read 9:36, I continued to the following verse:
9:37 "The postponing is an additin of covering (the truth: kufr), by which those coverers of truth (the kafirs) are led astray: they make it lawful a year and restrict it another in order to adjust the count set by God for restriction, so they make lawful what God restricted. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And the God guides guides not the people who cover the truth (the kafirs).
Who are meant by this verse? Any idea?
36. The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
37. Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
Is it about fighting in these months? or is about hunting?
Peace Ayman,
Hmmm, I see what you are getting at. This is regarding divorce and it's important to make sure whether the divorcee is pregnant or not hence the command from the god to believing women to not hide what is in their wombs.
"There is no typo. Those who didn't/ haven't menstruated (but didn't DESPAIR of menstruation) should wait the gestation period same as those who are actually pregnant. This is the simplest and most straight forward interpretation of 65:4 without having to insert punctuations that don't make sense or interpret the "wa"/and between the two categories in a strange way. Since those who "didn't menstruate" didn't despair from menstruation, then this is also the only 100% sure way. Of course, everyone knows how long the human gestation period is. Even those who are not pregnant know it. Even men Smiley know it."
I see what you mean about the punctuations which don't all agree with each other in different masaahif, if we pay too much attention to them they can actually hinder clear understanding. :yes However, since this part of the verse ends with 'ajalahunna an yadana hamlahunna', those who didn't/ haven't menstruated may not be pregnant so they have no 'haml', so how long would they really wait? If you are saying they wait until they know for sure that they aren't pregnant, then would they stop waiting???? ??? Sorry, it's the first time I've ever realized this verse 'could' be looked at this way so these are my initial inquiries. It still seems a little confusing because of this point, what if they aren't pregnant.
Peace Siki,
It is really positive and mature of you to share these thoughts of yours on this issue. Sometimes others' negativity and insults can put a real damper on the process of just trying to sincerely learn and seek out the truth with others, being respectful of differences that are truly based on the reading. All praise and thanks is to the god for everything good!
Umm Tariq
Peace all,
Ayman I forgot to ask about this:
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2008, 01:15:58 AM
Peace sister Samia,
To know who is meant by those who make lawful what the god restricted we need to know what the god restricted during the restriction period.
So the question is what did the god restrict during the period of the restricted full-moons. He ONLY restricted hunting wild life.
So it is those who make lawful hunting wild life during the restriction period.
Notice how the passage says: "The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them."
For example, Sunnis make the violation of the restriction seem fair by attributing the restriction to preventing the thousands of pilgrims from eating every wild animal in the vicinity of Mecca. Therefore they claim that hunting is not restricted except for the pilgrims during the three days of pilgrimage despite pilgrimage not even being mentioned in relation to the hunting restriction. They even cover what they believe is the truth of their own interpretation of "shahr" since 9:36 specifically says four "shahr" (according to them "months") and not just the few days of their sectarian pilgrimage.
This is the big question I asked to those who take 'shahr' as 'month' and who may also go by a strictly lunar calendar, how do they justify the 4 hurum CHANGING from year to year? Where did the god say that this happens? Wouldn't that contradict the very idea that they are hurum if it can change from year to year? Did you ever get a clear answer from them on this, maybe I missed that post. This is the big sticker to me and I definitely don't want to even THINK that these hurum can be violated even if I don't personally hunt.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: siki on September 22, 2008, 11:16:07 PM
I have always been quiet skeptical of Ayman's postulates and had couple of bloody confrontations in the past.
You Guys burned Midnight oil , but we benifited for free, so keep it up friends you are doing a great job.
Lastly, Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension. :handshake:
Siki
Salaam Siki,
You can then look forward to fast-free time, July being the month of monsoons in the Indian sub continent and a thick cloud cover is likely absolve you from any obligation to fast. Smile ,another reason to welcome Monsoons.
The monsoon is widely welcomed and appreciated by city-dwellers as well, for it provides relief from the climax of summer in June.
June 1 is regarded as the date of onset of the monsoon in India, which is the average date on which the monsoon strikes Kerala over the years for which scientific data is available with the Indian Meteoreological Department.
The North American Monsoon (NAM) occurs from late June or early July into SeptemberThe North American Monsoon (NAM) occurs from late June or early July into September
As monsoons have become better understood, the term monsoon has been broadened to include almost all of the phenomena associated with the annual weather cycle within the tropical and subtropical land regions of the earth.
Northeast Monsoon (Southern Asia and Australasia)
In Southern Asia, the northeastern monsoons take place from December to early March. The temperature over central Asia is less than 25?C as it is the northern hemisphere winter, therefore creating a zone of high pressure there. The jet stream in this region splits into the southern subtropical jet and the polar jet. The subtropical flow directs northeasterly winds to blow across southern Asia, creating dry air streams which produce clear skies over India. Meanwhile, a low pressure system develops over South-East Asia and Australasia and winds are directed toward Australia known as a monsoon trough.
:
For lovely images of cloud cover please visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsoon
Enjoy a fast-free system
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 23, 2008, 06:41:10 AM
[/i]:[/color]
For lovely images of cloud cover please visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsoon
Enjoy a fast-free system
:peace:
Salaam Siki et al,
Yes, enjoy a fast free system and make sure a divorce happens right after a full moon so women in semi-menopause or 20% of women (puberty to menopause) who do not menstruate UNSURE as to reason and you are suspicious if they are pregnant wait THREE months (12 weeks or first trimester) and not only TWO months before a full moon.
http://www.babycenter.com/slideshow-baby-size
(http://assets.babycenter.com/ims/2007/10oct/20071004/12-lime.jpg?width=424&height=302&pad=true)
(http://assets.babycenter.com/ims/2007/10oct/20071004/08-kidney-bean.jpg?width=424&height=302&pad=true)
In addition, if anyone commits the below make sure it?s before a full moon so they fast only ONE month and not the required TWO MONTHS!
4:92? so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other, a repentance from at God, and God is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Quote from: farida on September 23, 2008, 06:41:10 AM
Salaam Siki,
You can then look forward to fast-free time, July being the month of monsoons in the Indian sub continent and a thick cloud cover is likely absolve you from any obligation to fast. Smile ,another reason to welcome Monsoons.
My dear Farida and Nun
salam,
" Who so ever witnesses" If one has to literly witness the moon for fasting, then the same applies for sighting the cresent (Ahilla). And let me tell you that if the metrological conditions are not favorable , there is still a fair chance that one can make out the full moon , but sighting the cresent moon is not :nope: possible.
But why are we getting in to this ? we dont have to, nor is the blind man excused. The word witness simply ensures that whe all fast in the hottest possible, and for the longest duration, weather we live in the Northren hemisphere or down under.
And as the mankind has better tools avaiable to pin point Red moon at every Lat and Long, so a calender can be made for every region.
By the way, :'( July days are longest, hottest, :sun: :sun: and very humid :&, and I guess I have managed to get my fasting stuck around this month for the rest of my life :( .
peace
siki
Quote from: siki on September 23, 2008, 11:35:18 AM
My dear Farida and Nun
salam,
" Who so ever witnesses" If one has to literally witness the moon for fasting, then the same applies for sighting the crescent (Ahilla). And let me tell you that if the metrological conditions are not favorable , there is still a fair chance that one can make out the full moon , but sighting the cresent moon is not :nope: possible.
siki
Salaam Siki,
I/we do not believe in the literal sighting of the moon as a basis for fasting. Otherwise we would be excluding, not only the blind, but also the partial sighted, actually we are satisfied with the crescent as a marker for the beginning of a month. :yes even web/satellite viewing would do.
The example of a crescent is like a person born and a full moon is the state of his prime and then comes the decline towards old age. :hmm
QuoteBut why are we getting in to this ? we dont have to, nor is the blind man excused. The word witness simply ensures that whe all fast in the hottest possible, and for the longest duration, weather we live in the Northren hemisphere or down under
And as the mankind has better tools avaiable to pin point Red moon at every Lat and Long, so a calender can be made for every region..
Try telling this to Ayman and his team and also Umme Tariq and Truth seeker! who"
Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension." Quote
By the way, :'( July days are longest, hottest, :sun: :sun: and very humid :&, and I guess I have managed to get my fasting stuck around this month for the rest of my life :( .
Why very humid ???
:peace:
Ps: I hope Nun can adress your Red moon suggestion. :P
Peace Umm Tariq and Ayman,
Quote from: Umm TariqHowever, since this part of the verse ends with 'ajalahunna an yadana hamlahunna', those who didn't/ haven't menstruated may not be pregnant so they have no 'haml', so how long would they really wait?
That is exactly my question too. The words are "yada'na hamlahunna" meaning "they deliver their burdens/pregnancy" which signifies an EVENT and not a TIME PERIOD. It cannot be interpreted as "gestation period".
Why can't "lam yahidna" mean those who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea)?
Peace Siki,
Quote from: sikiUmme Tariq and Truth seeker! Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension.
Thank you for the kind and positive words. May The God guide us all to the truth.
Peace everyone,
Quote from: belalhammad on September 22, 2008, 05:37:20 PM
It seams that Ayman and his sect are trying to cover up the Truth that I posted regarding the Month calculation in the Bible and Torah. the following is a Quotion from http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html, which shows that God always wanted the True Submitter to calculate the Month using the Moon Cycel:
The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new [moon]," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 19:1). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 29:6, 1 Sam 20:5, 1 Chron 23:31). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 4:23, Ezek 45:17). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 1:14, Amos 8:5). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel?s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 81:3).
Now; it seams that Ayman and his followers are rejecting the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah.
By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D
Firstly, I never referenced any website about Mecca's weather
Secondly, I did reference a website about Medina's weather. It is not my fault that Belal cannot see it.
I have no cure for spiritual inability to see :(
Logical fallacies in Belal's post:
Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Package-deal fallacy: when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution: when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Cherry picking: the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Quote from: faridawe are satisfied with the crescent as a marker for the beginning of a month.
Two questions:
1. WHICH crescent (waxing or waning) is to be used to begin fasting per The Quran?
2. WHEN does that crescent occur during a year in relation to fasting per The Quran?
Peace Samia, others,
Quote from: Samia on September 22, 2008, 04:13:21 PM
This is my understanding of verse 65:4:
I think the first part is clear: Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).
The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses. Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?
So we have two categories of women:
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery
Thank you Samia for your understanding. This is the same as my initial understanding.
I think the two groups are:
1.
Waallaee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum (those women who have despaired/given up from the menstruation, if you are doubtful). This would include all the women who have stopped menstruating because of menopause or other reasons excluding pregnancy but "you" are doubtful as to whether "they" have actually stopped menstruating due to those reasons.
2.
Waallaee lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali (those who haven't menstruated and are pregnant). This would include all those women who were menstruating regularly but haven't menstruated since divorce due to pregnancy.
Please not that "waallaee" separates the two groups and
there is no "waallaee" between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali".
Let me give an example:
If I say to a class: "
Those students who are tall
and are wearing a white shirt, stand up", I will mean those students who are tall
as well as wearing white shirt, i.e. they have to fulfil
both criteria.
If I had meant all tall students and all those wearing white shirt (including the ones who are not tall), I would have said: "
Those students who are tall and
those who are wearing a white shirt", i.e.
I would have used two "waallaee".
"Lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" would mean "Those who haven't menstruated
AS WELL AS are pregnant".
"Lam yahidna" cannot mean those who
never had menstruation because then it will create a logical contradiction with "yada'na hamlahunna". Therefore, the women who never menstruated (primary amenorrhea) will be excluded and will have no interim because it is certain that they are not pregnant and it is certain that they don't have menstruations.
The words are "yada'na hamlahunna" meaning "they deliver their burdens/fetuses" which signifies an EVENT and not a TIME PERIOD. It cannot be interpreted as "gestation period".
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2008, 12:58:44 AM
But what does "desperate" really mean? They (the women) are desperate of menstruation tells me that they completely gave up. So they don't think they will ever have any menstruation (whether in 4, 6, or 100 months). "If you are in doubt" is not saying that the women themselves are in doubt. If the women thought that they might get the menstruation every 4 or 6 months as you say then they wouldn't be "despaired of menstruation". Also, in this case waiting for the count of three full-moons doesn't accomplish anything. Since they could very well be pregnant. Absent of a pregnancy test, the only way to know if they are pregnant or not is if they start showing the signs of pregnancy which may not necessarily appear within the three full-moons or even longer.
Logically, the only way to guarantee that those women are not pregnant is to either wait for three menstruations or the gestation period, whichever comes first. This leads me to your next point.
Salaam Ayman
You're right in the underlined part, my mistake. But still I have another understanding. Maybe it is those women who make believe they are still menustrating, but because, say, of their age, you are in doubt; or they bleed for another reason. Since we have two ways in the verse to count the 3idda, we have to exclude these women from the possibility of being pregnant.
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2008, 12:58:44 AM
I think that "women who didn't menstruate" refers to those women who didn't menstruate for any reason (known or unkown) since the time of the divorce. In this case, it is not known if she has amenorrhea or if she is semi menopausal or actually became menopause and the key is that unlike the first group, this woman hasn't DESPAIRED of menstruation.
Why would she wait until delivery? How long before she finds she was not pregnant?
As I understand, there are two groups: Those who can't be pregnant (menopausal and those who believe they are not but we doubt that) and those who are pregnant (those who have their menustrations stop during pregnancy and those who continue their menustartion during pregnancy).
Quote from: siki on September 22, 2008, 11:16:07 PM
Current debate has certainly helped me cross a threshold where , if i have to pick purely on evidence (only God knows the truth) , I would change to fasting in the summers after the Red Moon.
:hypno:
Even after knowing that the Quran, the Bible and the Torah are calling for Luner Year?
But, it is your Free-well to choose; but I will be witnessing aginest you in the Judgment Day. See you there :yes
Peace Belalhammad,
I don't want to get into a big discussion but what if I told you that there are Christians who believe that the real message in the Bible points to a luni-solar calendar as well and it's 'tradition' that said otherwise? http://www.4angelspublications.com/lunisoloar.html
They are also considered 'nuts' by 'traditionalists'. You can debate with them if you like. Anyway, the reading is 'muhaiman' over what is before it and there are known falsehoods in these books as they are now so we know to reject those falsehoods only based on the reading. We believe that initially they were sent from Allah, His books, but we know that they have been corrupted, hence, the need and mercy for our Lord to send us this book and then promise to protect this message. One of the women is a very nice lady, I consider her a believer since she says that she believes Muhammad was a prophet and that the 'quran' is from the god. She is still studying and I hope you don't offend her.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 23, 2008, 05:18:15 PM
Peace Belalhammad,
I don't want to get into a big discussion but what if I told you that there are Christians who believe that the real message in the Bible points to a luni-solar calendar as well and it's 'tradition' that said otherwise? http://www.4angelspublications.com/lunisoloar.html
A Big discussion is what started in this thread 3 weeks ago; A Big discussion that what made the viewer of this thread to reach over 6000 after it was only 800 three weeks ago (this thread started in 2004).
The Majorty of Christian follow Luni-Solar year scince the invantion of the new Calender (Luni-Solar) 500 years ago. The one who are considered nuts are the ones who are holding in thier Book, and they are the ones who call for Lunar Year. Evidences are Easter, Passover, Tabernacles that fall at the same time every year; and that is what Ayman and you are trying to accomplish with Rammadan.
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 23, 2008, 05:18:15 PM
Anyway, the reading is 'muhaiman' over what is before it and there are known falsehoods in these books as they are now so we know to reject those falsehoods only based on the reading.
The Quran Confirms the other books; hence, the Lunar Year calculation
(6-96, 10-5, 55-5, 39-5). In other words, both the Quran and Torah agree in Lunar Year.
If you are calling the Lunar Year to be a Falsehood, then you are calling the Quran, the Bible and Torah Falsehood.
I warn you, Fear Allah while you have time; otherwise, you will loose the Eternal Life.
Peace
The following translations are taken from Progressive Muslims. Can you please compare these verses and comment? Is studying quran what is meant by Siyam?
73.20 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God?s forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2.187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
2.184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if you knew.
Quote from: Samia on September 23, 2008, 03:39:28 PM
Salaam Ayman
You're right in the underlined part, my mistake. But still I have another understanding. Maybe it is those women who make believe they are still menustrating, but because, say, of their age, you are in doubt; or they bleed for another reason. Since we have two ways in the verse to count the 3idda, we have to exclude these women from the possibility of being pregnant.
Why would she wait until delivery? How long before she finds she was not pregnant?
As I understand, there are two groups: Those who can't be pregnant (menopausal and those who believe they are not but we doubt that) and those who are pregnant (those who have their menustrations stop during pregnancy and those who continue their menustartion during pregnancy).
:offtopic:
:hmm
Quote from: Samia on September 11, 2008, 05:23:27 PM
Salaam farida
I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.
:peace:
Peace Truthseeker, Samia,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 23, 2008, 03:10:37 PMI think the two groups are:
1. Waallaee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum (those women who have despaired/given up from the menstruation, if you are doubtful). This would include all the women who have stopped menstruating because of menopause or other reasons excluding pregnancy but "you" are doubtful as to whether "they" have actually stopped menstruating due to those reasons.
2. Waallaee lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali (those who haven't menstruated and are pregnant). This would include all those women who were menstruating regularly but haven't menstruated since divorce due to pregnancy.
Please not that "waallaee" separates the two groups and there is no "waallaee" between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali".
I agree with group 1.
On group 2, the terms "allaee" and "olatu" serve approximately the same function, the first is "those who" stopped menstruating since the divorce and the second is "those with" a load (carrying a baby). You can reverse the order and say "olatu alahmali wa allaee lam yahidna" and the meaning is the same. So those are two separate categories within group 2. Now for the category of those who are pregnant there is no issue since
at the time of the divorce it is known that they are pregnant. So if they are divorced 5 minutes before they give birth, their waiting time is 5 minutes.
There is also very low risk with group 1 since they
had already despaired from menstruation prior to the divorce so their waiting period is ZERO or 3 full-moons if you (not they) are in doubt. The highest risk is the other category of group 2. They are the ones who stopped menstruating since the divorce. For those, there are two possibilities:
1. They are pregnant.
2. They are not pregnant.
If they are pregnant then they automatically fall into the category of "pregnant" above.
If they are not pregnant then two things will happen:
1. They may suddenly start menstruating again at anytime. In this case, since they haven't despaired of menstruation, they would fall back into the category of menstruating women who wait for 3 menstruations.
2. They may not menstruate for the 9-10 months maximum gestation period. In this case, after a while they will know for sure that they are not pregnant and hence move into the category of "despaired from menstruation".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace All:
Here is another Sign from your Lord:
ٱللَّهُ ٱلَّذِى رَفَعَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ بِغَيۡرِ عَمَدٍ۬ تَرَوۡنَہَاۖ ثُمَّ ٱسۡتَوَىٰ عَلَى ٱلۡعَرۡشِۖ وَسَخَّرَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ وَٱلۡقَمَرَۖ كُلٌّ۬ يَجۡرِى لِأَجَلٍ۬ مُّسَمًّ۬ىۚ يُدَبِّرُ ٱلۡأَمۡرَ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لَعَلَّكُم بِلِقَآءِ رَبِّكُمۡ تُوقِنُونَ (٢)
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for an appointed period. He doth regulate all affairs explaining the Signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord. (13-2)
The Sun and The Moon Run for an Appointed and Known Period.
The Known period of the Sun is from Sun Rise to the next Sun Rise?One day. For thousands of year since God Created the Sun, the Sun appears the same way every day. If the Sun has another Appointed Period beside Day and Night calculation, God would have appointed it in Quran or Bible or Torah (by saying that the Month has 30 days or year has 365 days)
The Known and appointed Period of the Moon is the Moon Stages (10-5, 36-39). Thus, from the beginning of the Moon Cycle to the End is the Appointed Period. Such Period is known in the Quran, the Bible, and Torah. And we calculate from the Waxing Crescent (the New Moon) to the Next Waxing Crescent (The Mark of the new next period).
Unless Ayman and his Sect provide a period that is Appointed by God in His Books, They are Misleading you.
DO NOT FOLLOW ANY ONE EXECPT ALLAH?S WORDS
Salam and may God Lead you to the Truth
By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D
Salaaaaam
[/quote]
salam bilal
QuoteWhy are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth
It was me I posted that calendar and choose not to respond the reason....
Quran was revealed in Mecca and not in Madina. :hail
:peace:
:peace:
Peace Afridi,
Quote from: afridi220 on September 25, 2008, 10:53:13 AMQuran was revealed in Mecca and not in Madina. :hail
No it wasn't:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
I was thinking hard about the "shahr" issue and asking God for guidance when suddenly He drew my attention to two key signs that establish once in for all that "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran. I don't think anyone has considered this aspect before so I want to share this with all of you.
I am really excited about this :! :yay:
17:12 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
This sign makes it crystal clear that a year is solar according to al-quran.
Now let's see the following sign:
9:36 The count of the "shahr" with God is twelve "shahr" in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
This sign makes it clear that the count of "shahr" is twelve.
Now, if "shahr" means month, and as per al-quran phases of moon can be used as timing mechanism (10:5, 2:189), then let's see how many lunar months can be counted in a solar year (assuming a lunar month is from waxing crescent to waxing crescent, or full-moon to full-moon, both will theoretically make no difference as to the count of lunar months). A solar year can be from summer solstice to summer solstice or winter solstice to winter solstice or the current solar calendar can be used. Again this will make no difference as far as the count of "shahr" is concerned.
2006 lunar months
1. Jan 29 - Feb 27
2. Feb 28 - Mar 28
3. Mar 29 - April 26
4. April 27 - May 26
5. May 27 - Jun 24
6. Jun 25 - Jul 24
7. Jul 25 - Aug 22
8. Aug 23 - Sep 21
9. Sep 22 - Oct 21
10. Oct 22 - Nov 19
11. Nov 20 - Dec 19
As we can clearly see, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2006 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.
2007 lunar months
1. Jan 19 - Feb 16
2. Feb 17 - Mar 18
3. Mar 19 - Apr 17
4. Apr 17 - May 15
5. May 16 - Jun 14
6. Jun 15 - Jul 13
7. Jul 14 - Aug 11
8. Aug 12 - Sep 10
9. Sep 11 - Oct 10
10. Oct 11 - Nov 8
11. Nov 9 - Dec 8
As we can clearly see again, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2007 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.
In fact, the count of lunar months in a solar year will be 11 for 2 years in a row and then 12 in the third year. But according to al-quran the count of "shahr" is always 12.
Therefore "shahr" CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTH in al-quran.
On the other hand, if we count the full-moons in a solar year, WE WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO COUNT 12 FULL-MOONS EVERY YEAR and every 3rd year the 13th full-moon will not be counted.
This proves beyond any shadow of doubt that "shahr" CAN ONLY MEAN FULL-MOON in al-quran.
Indeed, God has detailed everything completely relevant to our guidance as per 17:12. The answer was always staring in the face; it is us who don't understand sometimes! May God guide us all to the truth.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 25, 2008, 12:29:15 PM
Peace everyone,
I was thinking hard about the "shahr" issue and asking God for guidance when suddenly He drew my attention to two key signs that establish once in for all that "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran. I don't think anyone has considered this aspect before so I want to share this with all of you.
I am really excited about this :! :yay:
17:12 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
This sign makes it crystal clear that a year is solar according to al-quran.
Now let's see the following sign:
9:36 The count of the "shahr" with God is twelve "shahr" in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
This sign makes it clear that the count of "shahr" is twelve.
Now, if "shahr" means month, and as per al-quran phases of moon can be used as timing mechanism (10:5, 2:189), then let's see how many lunar months can be counted in a solar year (assuming a lunar month is from waxing crescent to waxing crescent, or full-moon to full-moon, both will theoretically make no difference as to the count of lunar months). A solar year can be from summer solstice to summer solstice or winter solstice to winter solstice or the current solar calendar can be used. Again this will make no difference as far as the count of "shahr" is concerned.
2006 lunar months
1. Jan 29 - Feb 27
2. Feb 28 - Mar 28
3. Mar 29 - April 26
4. April 27 - May 26
5. May 27 - Jun 24
6. Jun 25 - Jul 24
7. Jul 25 - Aug 22
8. Aug 23 - Sep 21
9. Sep 22 - Oct 21
10. Oct 22 - Nov 19
11. Nov 20 - Dec 19
As we can clearly see, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2006 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.
2007 lunar months
1. Jan 19 - Feb 16
2. Feb 17 - Mar 18
3. Mar 19 - Apr 17
4. Apr 17 - May 15
5. May 16 - Jun 14
6. Jun 15 - Jul 13
7. Jul 14 - Aug 11
8. Aug 12 - Sep 10
9. Sep 11 - Oct 10
10. Oct 11 - Nov 8
11. Nov 9 - Dec 8
As we can clearly see again, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2007 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.
In fact, the count of lunar months in a solar year will be 11 for 2 years in a row and then 12 in the third year. But according to al-quran the count of "shahr" is always 12.
Therefore "shahr" CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTH in al-quran.
On the other hand, if we count the full-moons in a solar year, WE WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO COUNT 12 FULL-MOONS EVERY YEAR and every 3rd year the 13th full-moon will not be counted.
This proves beyond any shadow of doubt that "shahr" CAN ONLY MEAN FULL-MOON in al-quran.
Indeed, God has detailed everything completely relevant to our guidance as per 17:12. The answer was always staring in the face; it is us who don't understand sometimes! May God guide us all to the truth.
Lets wait and see what Bilal and his folower Farida says about that, till that keep smilling :)
Quote from: ayman on September 25, 2008, 11:41:21 AM
Peace Afridi,
No it wasn't:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Salam ayman
The so called archaeological evidences about Islam and Quran are all written by Christians and not trust worthy.
For example see this link
http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html :&
:peace:
Quote from: belalhammad on September 24, 2008, 06:34:47 PM
The Sun and The Moon Run for an Appointed and Known Period.
The Known period of the Sun is from Sun Rise to the next Sun Rise—One day. For thousands of year since God Created the Sun, the Sun appears the same way every day. If the Sun has another Appointed Period beside Day and Night calculation, God would have appointed it in Quran or Bible or Torah (by saying that the Month has 30 days or year has 365 days)
The Known and appointed Period of the Moon is the Moon Stages (10-5, 36-39). Thus, from the beginning of the Moon Cycle to the End is the Appointed Period. Such Period is known in the Quran, the Bible, and Torah. And we calculate from the Waxing Crescent (the New Moon) to the Next Waxing Crescent (The Mark of the new next period).
Salam and may God Lead you to the Truth
Brother Belal, Salam. :handshake:
:! lets assume for a while that >:D "Aliens abduct you, and take you to planet X ;D . There you lose all track of earth time. One day they decide to dump you back. You splash down, manage to swim out to a small deserted island with no one around.
You wanted to keep track of time , and most probably this is how you ended up doing. You remembered God's words in his book for keeping time, and hence started to count days with the help of sun rise and set. You counted 30 days but then your month started from the day you arrived back on the planet. The only way to synchronise it with the rest of the mankind was, to take refernce of the moon. So you reset your count and started counting months with the help of moon. To begin with, for a strange reason you chose the waxing cresent which followed the sun and was barely visible in the refracting light of the setting sun (By the way the wanning cresent is much more distinct, because it is at dawn, and is opposite to the rising sun) You counted "12" as per God's commandment, for a year and then restarted , but then your year was not synchronised with the rest of the world. This method started your year when you arrived back on the planet. Over a period of a few years you noticed, that in your count of 12, once there was a full Moon, which was so distinct in colour that you couldn't miss it, and hence you reset your year count with the help of this Orange full moon.
As you started to count the year from this bright marker , your month count automatically began to start with Full Moon, and so was every month from then on. Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.
(because in certain months you missed it and ended up having a count of 29 or sometimes 30-31 days, and every other month you had overcast and hence had no idea weather to start recounting or not whereas the bright full moon could still be noticed even in cloudy days when it started to rise soon afer sun set)I sincerly hope that you realize the difference.
peace
siki
Peace everyone,
I am also convinced, based on the god's verses, that prophet Muhammad was not from some place called Mecca, nor was the first bayt built there since the god says:
3:96 Verily the first bayt put/placed for the people is verily the one at Bakka, blessed and a guidance for all the worlds.
I remember early on being sunni and I was amazed at this verse and asked about it and the only answer I got was, 'oh, that was the old name for Makkah.' No evidence for such a claim was ever presented. I remember reading the name Bakka in the Bible as well and I was amazed that it mentioned the same place but back then, didn't think too much more of it.
However, I mainly wanted to share another point about this, some food for thought for all if anyone has noticed this or not, these two verses:
11:73 They said are you amazed from the command of the god? The mercy of the god and His blessings upon you all family/ people/ citizens (etc.) of the bayt (ahlul bayt)...
33:33 ...the god only wants to remove from you all the rijs family/ people/ citizens of the bayt (ahlul bayt) and purifying you all completely.
When I realized the arabic for the first time I was shocked, this same phrase addressing Ibrahim and his family and addressing prophet Muhammad and those with him. The beginning of verse 33:33 starts out addressing just the wives of the prophet Muhammad and this was the first time I noticed the change in the pronouns used at the end of the verse, going from 'kunna' referring to you (plural) female to 'kum' you all including male and female. I then noticed how my copy of translation of the meaning of the reading from Saheeh International, sunni, translates these two verses:
11:73 "They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house..."
33:33 "And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification."
What happened???! This simple phrase 'ahlul bayt' is the same in both verses yet here, all of these additions, one must ask why? They don't even let you know that the 'O' is an addition nor can you tell the gender of all of the 'yous' used in English. In this verse they use 'household' (more personal). I automatically asked, what are you trying to hide by this? I realized, with these two verses, with this phrase, is this showing that Ibrahim, as well as Muhammad were in the same vicinity, near the same house, not in Mecca?
Again, food for thought, let me know how others have seen this verse translated. For me, additions like these, let's me know automatically that something is amiss and it's not the god's perfect verses.
Umm Tariq
Peace Afridi,
Quote from: afridi220 on September 25, 2008, 12:52:28 PMThe so called archaeological evidences about Islam and Quran are all written by Christians and not trust worthy.
I don't think that non trust worthy Christian archeologists built the present pagan theme park in Mecca and told sectarians to idolize a stone cube, the Black Stone, "holy" Zamzam water, etc... .
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 25, 2008, 12:29:15 PM
17:12 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
This sign makes it crystal clear that a year is solar according to al-quran.
I would like to draw your and Ayman's attention to a very important Rule when trying to understand Quran verses; This Rule is verse 3-7 Rule.
In such a rule, we have to know the Well-established verses and the non-well-established verses. Otherwise you will end up canceling out many verses in Quran because of following a non-well-established verse.
If you succeed in knowing the well-established verses, you will not need to cancel any verse.
Example, is Our case of Lunar year Vs Solar:
Verse 17-12 says:
And
We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and
that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
Verse 13-2:
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for an appointed period. He doth regulate all affairs explaining the Signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.
Verse 39-5
He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running for an appointed period. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.
Verse 6-96:
He Cleaver of the daybreak. He has appointed the night for resting, and the sun and the moon for Counting. Such is the measuring of the All?Mighty, the All?Knowing.
Verse 10-5:
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. All?h did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge.
Verse 55-5
The sun and the moon for calculation
Verse 2-189
They ask you about the crescents. Say: These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage. It is not Al-Birr that you enter the houses from the back but Al-Birr who fears All?h. So enter houses through their proper doors, and fear All?h that you may be successful.
Now find the Well established Verses, from above, that if you follow you do not need to Cancel out any of the other verses.
As you Know you are following the first verse 17-12 and canceling out all the other verses; thus you are breaking the Rule of 3-7:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Do you want to be from wicked with a sick Heart?
Quote from: Umm Tariq on September 25, 2008, 06:40:06 PM
Peace everyone,
I am also convinced, based on the god's verses, that prophet Muhammad was not from some place called Mecca, nor was the first bayt built there since the god says:
3:96 Verily the first bayt put/placed for the people is verily the one at Bakka, blessed and a guidance for all the worlds.
Peace;
Now, try to find the weather Trend for The area you are talking about (Jordan and Baka).
And when you do, you will find that 9-81 is the Ultimate proof that Fighting was in Summer time after the 4 Restricted Months; thus Rammadan can not fall in summer time as Ayman says.
Peace
Im just go be paitent. I have to analize this who forum. May God grant me the paitience. But for all I know is that i havent seen Aymen ordering righteousness nor forbiding to much evil. I fear more the warnings of belehamad than what ayman is presenting. Who is Ayman? And im not go keep sittin back while I see one striving in the cause of God and reciting His verses to them and ordering ritiousness and giving warning of the Fire, so im with belahamd. Here we have someone warning the people of Hell Fire and also bringing proofs and not speaking too much of his own accord.
The time for fasting has been made known, there should be no confusion about it. So stand to God traditionally or your own uncomman way, and then reflect. There is no madness in your friend he is only a warner to you in the face of a sever torture.
Or should we continue to reject traditinal fast and the warnings and wait for ayman?
Peace Anthony,
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 25, 2008, 09:48:19 PMOr should we continue to reject traditinal fast and the warnings and wait for ayman?
What are you waiting for me on?
You can fast during the traditional arbitrary time if you want. Millions of sectarians do it anyway. They also take the four restricted full-moons as arbitrary "months" that are not consecutive despite knowing very well that passages such as 9:5 make it clear that they are consecutive. But of course they can't read 9:5 and the only thing they can do is use it in mindless argumentation as we see here. They also count 12.37 of their "months" in a year instead of 12 "shahr". They are unable to read "sun and moon" and only read "moon" and want to abrogate 17:12. They mindlessly quote 2:189 but they hypocritically start their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent and end it on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So for them the crescents don't time anything about their pilgrimage and they are just lying. What they are really doing is blindly following in their forefathers misguided ways which are entirely based on Hadiths.
Again, you can time the fast based on Hadiths and lies and as I said millions of people do anyway. I give you credit though because unlike people here who hypocritically claim to follow the great reading/"quran" when they clearly aren't, you are at least honest enough to admit that for now you are merely following the traditional way.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2008, 07:53:56 PM
Peace Anthony,
They also count 12.37 of their "months" in a year instead of 12 "shahr".
No I do not; one year is 12 Moon Cycles.
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2008, 07:53:56 PM
They are unable to read "sun and moon" and only read "moon" and want to abrogate 17:12.
I do not cancel out any of thoes verses:
Verse 17-12 says:
And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
Verse 13-2:
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for an appointed period. He doth regulate all affairs explaining the Signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.
Verse 39-5
He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running for an appointed period. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.
Verse 6-96:
He Cleaver of the daybreak. He has appointed the night for resting, and the sun and the moon for Counting. Such is the measuring of the All?Mighty, the All?Knowing.
Verse 10-5:
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. All?h did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge.
Verse 55-5
The sun and the moon for calculation
Verse 2-189
They ask you about the crescents. Say: These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage. It is not Al-Birr that you enter the houses from the back but Al-Birr who fears All?h. So enter houses through their proper doors, and fear All?h that you may be successful.
But you do abrogate all of them except 17-12.
You know why, because you have a sick heart as God told us in 3-7:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding (3-7)
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2008, 07:53:56 PM
They mindlessly quote 2:189 but they hypocritically start their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent and end it on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So for them the crescents don't time anything about their pilgrimage and they are just lying. What they are really doing is blindly following in their forefathers misguided ways which are entirely based on Hadiths.
Please read 2-197, and you will know when is Hajj for the Believers and not the Sectrians.
Ayman, we are not Sactrian (Suni or Shia or Ayman's Scet or any other) but we are the Sect of Allah. We strive to follow His words that are written in his Book; we reject all other Books, including your dictionary, when we are looking for the Truth. We know that the Truth is only in His Books.
And May God Lead us to his Truth, and make it our only Light in the darkeness of Lies.
If you want to End this in the Truth, Let us Use God's Book (Quran, Bible, and Torah) as a Judge between us and not any other book. And in this case our dispute is a) Lunar Year Vs Solar, b) is Rammadan happens only in Summer or not? c) is Fasting for all Moslems all over the world a Common Month or different Months? d) Is the Night of Kader one Night or many nights? e) do Blinds people have to Fast or not? f) Does Shaer Means Month or Full Moon. g) is Fasting for the Complete Moon Cycel or 10 days? h) are Moslems forbiden from Starting a war in the 4 Ristricted Month or not? i) is Land Hunting Forbiden during Hajj time or during the entire 4 ristricted Months?
Your Key to end this is the BOOK of God, because we are the Sect of God.
:)
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2008, 07:53:56 PM
Peace Anthony,
What are you waiting for me on?
You can fast during the traditional arbitrary time if you want. Millions of sectarians do it anyway. They also take the four restricted full-moons as arbitrary "months" that are not consecutive despite knowing very well that passages such as 9:5 make it clear that they are consecutive. But of course they can't read 9:5 and the only thing they can do is use it in mindless argumentation as we see here. They also count 12.37 of their "months" in a year instead of 12 "shahr". They are unable to read "sun and moon" and only read "moon" and want to abrogate 17:12. They mindlessly quote 2:189 but they hypocritically start their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent and end it on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So for them the crescents don't time anything about their pilgrimage and they are just lying. What they are really doing is blindly following in their forefathers misguided ways which are entirely based on Hadiths.
Again, you can time the fast based on Hadiths and lies and as I said millions of people do anyway. I give you credit though because unlike people here who hypocritically claim to follow the great reading/"quran" when they clearly aren't, you are at least honest enough to admit that for now you are merely following the traditional way.
Peace,
Ayman
All Im sayin is that I believe that everyone deserves a hearing. And no idea is too small or too crazy for consideration. So Im trying to be paitient. And investigate carfully. I dont want to harm nobody wrongfully is what I thought. But then on the other hand I see one striving against you merly warning you with the quran,and they call you a misleader, sect, ect... And then I thought of the dog, how you are being scolded with the Fire, and if you scold him or not he still pants....
The way I see it is everyone fast at the same time ( the hyporcrits, the believers, the sects, ect...) the times for fast is made known. Do you know that you are causing a division?
I would like you to answer belahamad qusestions. And he said he dont count 12.37 of their months in a year instead of 12 " shahr"
And he dont cancel out any of them verses, ect...
And the hyporcrites are neither for or from you, they are swaying inbetween neither belonging to either side... is what i thought...too.............................................. :peace:
Peace Anthony,
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 26, 2008, 11:08:36 PMAll Im sayin is that I believe that everyone deserves a hearing. And no idea is too small or too crazy for consideration. So Im trying to be paitient. And investigate carfully. I dont want to harm nobody wrongfully is what I thought. But then on the other hand I see one striving against you merly warning you with the quran,and they call you a misleader, sect, ect... And then I thought of the dog, how you are being scolded with the Fire, and if you scold him or not he still pants....
You should have read 7:175-176 before bungling up the example. The example in 7:175-176 is about those who are given the god's signs but they instead continue to follow whatever it is they were following before they were given the god's signs. So the god's signs don't matter to them and whatever they do doesn't change as a result of the god's signs. Now who here on this thread hasn't changed their inherited timing of the fast based on the god's signs? Who has been using the great reading not to find out the timing but to work backwards to justify a preconceived timing? Answer this and you will see who is exactly like the dog example described in 7:175-176, you give them the god's signs or not, they keep doing the same thing. This is why it is better to ignore them as I have been doing.
Anyone can mindlessly copy and paste passages from the great reading. So notice that they throw at you 2:189 and 2:197 but they don't tell you how their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja is based on those passages. This is because of the fact is that their timing for the pilgrimage and for fast is entirely based on Hadiths and not on anything in the great reading.
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 26, 2008, 11:08:36 PMThe way I see it is everyone fast at the same time ( the hyporcrits, the believers, the sects, ect...) the times for fast is made known. Do you know that you are causing a division?
The believers are ALWAYS divided from the hypocrites and the sectarians. If letting go of all preconceptions and following the god's clear signs causes division away from the hypocrites and the sectarians then we must be doing something right.
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 26, 2008, 11:08:36 PMI would like you to answer belahamad qusestions. And he said he dont count 12.37 of their months in a year instead of 12 " shahr"
He doesn't ask any sincere questions. If he doesn't ignore all the passages that he quotes which clearly say BOTH THE SUN AND THE MOON are used to count the years and if he doesn't ignore 17:12 then he will answer his own questions.
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 26, 2008, 11:08:36 PMAnd he dont cancel out any of them verses, ect...
This is not reality. He just admitted above to cancelling out 17:12. He also cancelled the word "sun" out of all the passages that he quoted.
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 26, 2008, 11:08:36 PMAnd the hyporcrites are neither for or from you, they are swaying inbetween neither belonging to either side... is what i thought...too.............................................. :peace:
The hypocrites know who they are. They are claiming to follow the great reading while all they are really doing is defending their inherited preconceptions. Hence they mindlessly copy and paste passages from the great reading without following those passages. I think that it is clear on this thread who they are.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
May the god reward you for your patience Ayman in replying. I had to also come to the conclusion to just ignore certain posts. My being new to this forum seems to expose them more as well. What, did I, after 14 grueling years as a sunni salafi just decide I will come to the forum and just follow some names on posts as opposed to others!!! ??? Since I don't know anyone personally, that's really what it is. I know better now to VERIFY everything I read. My Lord in His mercy didn't let me die on that shirk of sunnism, so am I now going to act foolish and absurd to just come and follow anyone CLAIMING to be following the god's book alone for judgment when most certainly shaytaan will be on this path more so? Just because some make MORE NOISE than others and throw names around and slander?
Being the internet, it makes it even easier for hypocrites, whoever they are, since their faces are hidden but the god didn't even tell the Prophet that he would know them by their marks, He could have made it possible, but by their 'lahnil qawl', 'the tone of their speech'. I also realize that sometimes we may have to reply just to let other innocent bystanders see the other side and they can decide for themselves. The Prophet had to beware of this as well and he was the recipient of the revelation:
2:204 And of mankind there is he whose speech may please you in this worldly life and he calls the god to witness as to that which is in his heart, yet he is the most quarrelsome of the opponents.
They can sound very convincing if one lacks proper understanding. For me, it has become too much like dealing with sunnis with the name calling, getting personal, accusing of disbelief without evidence and throwing around the god's threat as if they alone possess it. Been there done that and I can do without it. I came here for mature discussion with respect sincerely trying to increase in knowledge and understanding and I ask the god to expose for me the liars.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: ayman on September 25, 2008, 06:43:03 PM
Peace Afridi,
I don't think that non trust worthy Christian archeologists built the present pagan theme park in Mecca and told sectarians to idolize a stone cube, the Black Stone, "holy" Zamzam water, etc... .
Peace,
Ayman
Archaeology News
peace
So how about this i know you will say it is written by Muslims so not trust worthy.
http://archaeologynews.multiply.com/journal/item/212
you said that Arabic was derived from Aramaic now let us find out how a reach and superior language can be derived from inferior language.
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
In what may be described as one of the earliest comparative linguistic attempts, al-Jahiz concludes that whereas the languages and ideas of non-Arabs had followed a process of immense meditation and long exercise of the mind, and rested heavily on studying books[1], Arabic language and thought, he says ? while attempting to historize for the pre-Qur'anic period ? were uniquely spontaneous[2] and were almost inspired. Words were at the Arabs' disposal once they wanted them, and were uttered in abundance without exerting any extraordinary effort. The Arabs were not like those who needed to memorize the knowledge of others deliberately, nor had they to artificially model their speech in the form of those who preceded them. They could not but transmit what hey naturally found palatable and close to their hearts and minds[3].
Furthermore, Arabic has a charming simplicity and smoothness to learners, provided, that there exists a genuine need to know it.[4] Those who question al-Jahiz's opinion are advised by him to visit Arabia and meet its most eloquent poets and orators in order to have a direct taste of Arabic[5].
2 Richness
Arabic expression, "البيان العربي", al-Jahiz adds, "has no equal, and Arabic language has no parallel in its richness and wealth."[6] This richness is attributed by al-Jahiz to an incomparable synonymic[7] and derivative[8] nature of Arabic. Al-Jahiz says,
"The Arabs have been 'more' eloquent in their expression and they enjoyed a language which was 'richer' in vocabulary, 'terser' and (uniquely) precise in word, the composition of its speech was 'more varied' and the application of proverbs which were in use therein were outstanding and more current".[9]
3 A Divine gift or a human product?
One may ask how was it that the literary excellence of the Arabs preceded their cultural excellence? i.e., how did it happen that Arabic reached a certain level of maturity (before Islam) prior to the actual appearance of their civilization? Was there an Arabic civilization before the Arabic language matured to its pre-Qur'anic stage? Was it an outcome of a gradual agreement among Arabs? Or was it installed in form and content all of a sudden?
These questions bring us closer to al-Jahiz's view of the relation between Arabic and the Qur'an.
Not only the Qur'an was divinely revealed, Arabic itself (amongst other languages) was also inspired. Adam (PBUH) is said to have been the first speaker of Arabic[10], the language that was exclusively endowed with a unique capacity to grow and increase in perfection and was enriched with unique incomparable features in order to allow it to demonstrate the miraculous difference between human and divine eloquences. According to a Hashimite report[11], al-Jahiz says that an outstanding Arabic was later initiated in the person of the Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) who is said to have become an outstanding speaker of Arabic, not after proper instruction but because of a divine miracle that shifted his tongue and character to Arabic. That shift was a proof to the truth of his prophethood[12]. So Ismacil (PBUH) stood in relation to his people in the same relation Muhammad (PBUH) was to stand before Quraysh[13]. In both instances the miracle was in the sudden way each excelled the native speakers of Arabic before him.
What happened between Prophet Ismacil's time (PBUH) and the pre-Qur'anic stage of Arabic maturity? al-Jahiz's answer is interesting, as it reflects a developmental outlook within the overall inspirational outlook to Arabic. In other words, al-Jahiz gives room for a human role in the journey undertaken by Arabic. According to al-Jahiz, Arabic was a bounty-lent[14] by God to the Arabs. It was God who provided the Arabs with the chance of exercising and experimenting with that bounty, thanks to the superior synonymic and derivative capacities endowed in it, before the time came to reveal the difference between human and Divine eloquences of Arabic.
Until Arabic reached its pre-Qur'anic stage, al-Jahiz's account of the journey made by Arabic may hypothetically be sketched as follows:
1- Prophet Adam (PBUH): first Divine inspiration of Arabic with potentialities of excellence which were not given to other languages inspired to Adam (PBUH).
2- The Arabs: were offered God's bounty to experiment and enrich it in Arabia[15].
3- Prophet Ismacil's (PBUH) outstanding Arabic in relation to the Arabic of the people around him.
4- Pre-Islamic Arabs continued exercising with God's lent bounty until they produced an unprecedented literary output. al-Jahiz's rough estimation of the oldest poetry before Islam does not precede it by more than two hundred years[16]. His other estimate of an (indefinite) but longer[17] period does not go as far as the period that witnessed Greek wisdom. In both cases it is implied in al-Jahiz's attitude that Arabic had been undergoing a growing line of excellence which was proportional to its proximity to Islam. This observation applied to all Arabs, initially the Northerners then followed by the Southerners who could not avoid joining the circle of Arabic due to the common geographic setting, and frequent inter-marriages with the Northerners[18].
5- Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) outstanding Arabic in relation to the Arabic of his people; Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) sudden excellence in Arabic, ranks after the Qur'an in the hierarchy of excellence[19].
6- The unsurpassable Qur'anic Arabic.
7- Post-Islamic Arabic.
So what al-Jahiz believes to have occurred to Arabic in the meantime, is eventually evident in the superior literary status of its most notable clan, Quraysh. Quraysh is said to have been subjected to the strictest divine supervision that "eliminated genetic impurities (and raised it in its literary and socio-moral excellences over all other Arabian tribes) in preparation for all that is magnificent and most significant"[20], al-Jahiz says:
"وقريش قوم لم يزل الله تعالى يقلبهم في الأرحام البريئة من الآفات وينقّلهم من الأصلاب السليمة من العاهات ويعبّيهم لكل جسيم ويربيهم لكل عظيم".
[Wa Quraysh qawmun lam yazal Allahu ta?ala yuqallibuhum fi al-arham al-bari?a min al-aafat, wa yunaqqiluhum min al-aslab al-salima min al-?Aahat, wa yu?abbihum likul jasim wa yurabbihum likul ?azeem]
al-Jahiz's own description of the literary status of Quraysh[21] and the Pre-Islamic Arabs[22] sums up his view of Arabic mentioned above; i.e., of an inspired supervised Arabic. According to al-Jahiz, Arabic had been miraculously enriched, initiated and divinely nurtured until it reached its pre-Qur'anic destined stage of maturity whereby Arabic and the Arabs were both to experience and witness an unusual charming Arabic, the Qur'an, that had an unprecedented arrangement (Nazm ), a new literary configuration that assembled their very own alphabets and words yet which lies beyond their literary level of superiority, and stays unsurpassable!
4 Divine ' Qisma'
Al-Jahiz substantiates his original thesis of the divine origin of Arabic by making another comparative study, this time among the Arabian tribes themselves; he says:
"While some Arabian tribes had shared the same fertile geographical setting, they however exhibited different poetical output. Thus, there was no relation between the geographical setting and poetical output. Poetry and power of expression, are due to "ما قسم الله", i.e., what Allah has allocated (Qasama)"[23]
According to al-Jahiz the invisible caring hand of God was not confined to the Arabs alone, but was also responsible for the virtues of all other nations. For example, the Greeks were also gifted with wisdom, the Persians with political management, the Turks with military strength, etc.
The Arabs were endowed with the Arabic language and its corresponding socio-moral code, which al-Jahiz calls: "حظ العربية", "the fortune of Arabic" (Hazz al-cArabiyya)[24].
Again he says:
"God's Justice ordained that His bounties be evenly divided among His creations, by giving each generation and every nation its right share, that is conducive to the correct understanding of religion and leading to the perfection of the world's welfare"[25].
And his notion of Divine "qisma" does not mean that such virtues bestowed by God on nations should be apparent in every member of these nations. They have been available on a general basis, and are likely to be almost uniquely present in one but not in the other nation, says al-Jahiz:
"It was not that every Arab was a poet and expert in tracking foot-steps or in the science of physiognomy, but these virtues and the like were more abundant, widespread, exclusively perfected and more apparent amongst them"[26] .
5 Superiority of Arabic: " حظ العربية" ("Fortune of Arabic")
Owing to the superior feature of Arabic, the Arabs were elevated to a distinguished literary and socio-moral status among nations:
"Because of the eloquence of Arabic and the beauty of its expression, God sent His best Prophet amongst the Arabs, made his language Arabic and even revealed to him an Arabic Qur'an"[27].
In other words, Arabic was God's chosen language for His chosen message: i.e., Arabic could not have carried God's message to humanity had He chosen English or Latin for that purpose. Since Arabic was destined to play a specific function in the future, i.e., to witness the revelation of the Qur'an, we can now understand why al-Jahiz was inclined to expect a distinguished birth of the Arabic language, first in the person of Prophet Adam (PBUH), then in Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) accompanied in the latter case by God's supervision of his Qurayshite descendents, lest they, the Qurayshites, ? as an expected Islamic nation ? will not certainly benefit from the beautiful Arabic, its charming logic and its binding moral code that it had been intended to convey.
What is significant in al-Jahiz's view of Arabic is not just the linguistic aspects of Arabic but also the inseparable socio-moral dimensions[28]
"وليس في الأرض قوم أعنى بذم جليل القبيح ودقيقه وبمدح دقيق الحسن وجليله من العرب، حتى لو جهد أفطن البرية وأعقل الخليقة أن يذكر معنى لم يذكروه، لما أصابه. ولهم حظّ العربية مع الحفظ لأنسابهم ومحاسن أسلافهم ومساوئ أكفائهم للتعاير بالقبيح والتفاخر بالحسن ليجعلوا ذلك عونا لهم على اكتساب الجميل واصطناع المعروف، ومزجرة لهم عن إتيان القبيح وفعل العار وليؤدبوا أولادهم ب ما أدبهم به آباؤهم".
[Wa laysa fi al-ard qawmun a?ana bi zamm jalil al-qabih wa daqiqihi wa bi madh daqiq al-hasan wa jalilihi min al-?Arab, hatta law jahida aftan al-bariyya wa a?aqal al-khaliqa an yazkura ma?nan lam yazkuruh, lama asabah. Wa lahum hazz al-?Arabiyya ma?a al-hifz li ansabihim wa mahasin aslafihim wa masawi? akfa?ihim li al-ta?ayur bi al-qabih wa al-tafakhur bi al-hasan li yaj?alu zalika ?awnan lahum ?ala iktisab al-jamil wa istina?a al-ma?arouf, wa majzaratan lahum ?an ityan al-qabih wa fi?il al-?Aar wa li yuaddibu awladahum bi ma addabahum bihi aaba?uhum?]
If the Arabs were to excel the nations of the world, Arabic has been the mark and the cause of their excellence[29].
The fortune of Arabic, "حظّ العربية", that was exclusively for the Arabs had given them a three-fold superiority and a distinction over the nations:
The Arabs have proved to be perfect candidates for the first Islamic society proposed in the Qur'an owing to the binding moral code that remained amongst their notables as was evident in the mastery of Arabs in cheering of virtues and condemning of vices, says al-Jahiz[30]:
"إحكام العرب شأن المناقب والمثالب ... في بقايا ما ثبتوا عليه من دين إبراهيم."
[Ihkam al-?Arab sha?n al-manaqib wa al-mathalib?fi baqaya ma thabatu ?alayh min din Ibrahim?]
The Arabs have been credited with the honour of transmitting to the human race God's first Universal Speech that was conveyed through their language. It was through the Arabs that God addressed humanity, and it is therefore incumbent on the Arabs to translate the meaning of the Qur'an to all the world[31].
As the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, the Arabs were raised to be God's direct addressee, thanks to the (socio)-literary excellences He has provided[32].
The Arabic language is superior to the languages of the world in the same way that the Qur'an is superior to the language of the Arabs[33]. The Arabs who failed to display something similar to the Qur'an, while they being God's direct addressees has been meant to be God's permanent sign and proof of His miracle to humanity at large,[al-?Arab hum al-hujja ?ala jami? ahlal-lughat] "العرب هم الحجة (حجة الله) على جميع أهل اللغات", as they, themselves, have failed to match its excellences[34].
6 The notion of Nazm (Qur'anic literary configuration)
al-Jahiz found the Qur'an to be magnificent in its amazing literary configuration, he says:
"The Qur'an differs from all the known rhymes of poetry and prose. It is a prose whose rhythm is not modelled on that of poetry or rhymed prose (sajc, "سجع") and whose configuration stands as a magnificent evidence and as a great Divine proof"[35].
The underlying secret of the Qur'an, says al-Jahiz, lies in the very special and unprecedented composition of the very Arabic letters and words used by the Arabs. As in any masterpiece of art, the attention follows the way things are composed and assembled from the same raw material known to all [36].
It is remarkable that this notion of Nazm was later developed by cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjani[37] (d. 471 AH) who adopted al-Jahiz's position regarding the miraculousness or the inimitability of the Qur'an.
7 The notion of Sarfa and the literary capacity of the Arabs
In spite of al-Jahiz's Muctazilite position regarding man's great capacity of free will, it is only in this place that we find his view of human ability in relation to (i) literary output and (ii) the inability to surpass the Qur'an to reflect his belief in the "Jabrite" doctrine of Predestination (i.e., human free will is restricted in this respect)[38].
Could he not have served the notion of Icjaz better without resorting to "sarfa", i.e., while still recognizing man's ability as continuously perfect and not turned away?[39] The point was that while some maintained the notion of Icjaz, in their full recognition of man's undisrupted free will yet of his inability to surpass the Qur'an, men like al-Jahiz however, thought that it would show more respect for man's free will if we assume his established weakness vis-?-vis the Qur'an, was not a malfunction of our perfect faculties, something not coming from within when left to their normal functioning, but due to a Superior Will that turned them away from so doing. If al-Jahiz's resort to sarfa may appear to be an early compromise between caql (reason) and naql (revelation), it is in facta diplomatic call to continuously marvel man's caql that could have produced something like the Qur'an, had he been able to do so; i.e., if he could have escaped being eventually turned away by God from doing so. Al-Jahiz's view of sarfa is therefore twofolded in its implication. It is first implying a sarfa of capacity (Divine intervention, man's ability being divinely incapacitated), hence leading to sarfa of attention, will and desire[40]. In this respect he was following the position of his teacher, al-Nazzam[41].
But does al-Jahiz see the Qur'an as an obstacle to the future post-Qur'anic literary capacities of the Arabs?
No. If Arabic was destined to grow before the Qur'an, its post-Qur'anic development cannot be denied. Arabic was not meant to be frozen in the literary forms of pre-Islamic Arabs. Post-Qur'anic eloquence of Arabic was still possible[42], and al-Jahiz himself notes that some Arabic tribes reacted differently to the coming of Islam: a tribe like Banu Badr remained poetless while Banu al-Harith b. Kacb produced famous Islamic poets, when they were not famous poetically before the advent of Islam[43]. So while post-Qur'anic eloquence was recognized by al-Jahiz (even if it was emitted by non-Arabs) ? that eloquence was recognized by al-Jahiz, displayed by their predecessors and consequently below the perfect Arabic that had been cristallized in the Qur'an, thanks now not to the factor of mixing with nations that was gradually diluting their pure literary talents but also due to the Divine intervention or mechanism of "sarfa" through which al-Jahiz implies ? God was maintaining, generation after generation, His version of the "Perfect Qur'anic Arabic".
I think that the Qur'anic challenge loses its defying intensity and cannot be held as really open and charismatically eternal if man's literary abilities are unnecessarily and continuously checked, incapacitated and diverted from meeting that challenge. al-Jahiz's attempt to serve the concept of eternal challenge ? eternal cajz (failure) therefore need not be based on Divine "sarfa " but rather on an undisrupted capacity and undeflected attention; al-Qur'an's superiority is not because man's attention is eventually being turned away, but it is because man's capacity is kept at its best. In short, endowed with a promising potential for a growing exellence, Arabic's journey rested - in perfecto - in the Qur'an, leaving Arabs with the unsurpassable walls of the excellences of the Qur'anic Suras, as if these written suras (literally, walls or fences) were erected before all Arabs, speakers of Arabic and the nations of the world, as an empirical sign pointing to the undeniable difference between the literary peak of human (i.e. Arabic) eloquence and that of the Divine Qur'anic eloquence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concluding Comments
al-Jahiz's above views on Arabic should be fitted into their historical context as they initially reflect an intellectually curious search for the wisdom underlying the conditions that brought about the Qur'an in an Arabic dress. Hence, al-Jahiz may be credited for initiating such an analytical search into the distinctive features of pre-Islamic Arabic language and culture[44], and how they stand in comparison to the Qur'an and to all other languages and cultures, in the belief that there was no conflict between the "Universality" of the Qur'an and its "particular" Arabic setting.
In his rational attempt to understand the harmonious relation that existed between the Qur'an and the pre-Islamic language and culture, al-Jahiz at one point did say that Arabic enjoys a higher literary status than that of the other languages, simply because of the undeniable charismatic fact that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic. This position needs not be necessarily implying a national prejudice by al-Jahiz towards the Arabs. In my opinion, the notion of the superiority of Arabic to the other languages, outlined above, does not reflect the real and complete picture, because before Arabic happened to enjoy that status, it had to demonstrate its inferiority to the Qur'an. Similarly, had the Qur'an been revealed in Latin, all non-Latin languages would have been inferior to it, as Latin would be less superior to the revealed Latin. So before raising Arabic to an internationally comparative linguistic analysis, we have to remember the historical failure of the most eloquent Arabs to imitate the Qur'an[45], that was intended to stress the permanent difference between human and Divine eloquences, between pre-Islamic Arabic and Qur'anic Arabic, and left as a sign to attract the world via the Arabs to its contents[46] .
If the superiority of Arabic was not proposed by al-Jahiz out of a "Shucubi" national prejudice, it was nevertheless forwarded against those Shucubi's (anti-Arabs), who undermined the language and culture of the Arabs after realizing their role in the appearance of the Qur'an and the proposed Muslim Umma. al-Jahiz's opinion on the special birth or distinctive initiation and Divine supervision of Arabic could be seen from the same angle. In order to face "Shucubi" attacks, al-Jahiz had to raise the superiority of Arabic from the pre-Qur'anic era to the time of Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) or Adam (PBUH), thus enhancing its historical prestige (and future one too) that could fit with his Muctazilite notion of Khalq al-Qur'an (createdness of the Qur'an), but without taking it any further in time as his contemporary Hanbalites were assumed by him to have raised it above the limits of time (and therefore accused by him of polytheism by assuming it had co-existed with God) by opposing to hold the Muctazili notion[47].
As far as al-Jahiz's inspirational attitude to the origin of languages is concerned[48], one may raise the objection that if Prophet Adam (PBUH) was equally the first speaker of languages, what was the special thing about Arabic? Because Arabic had been special since its inception in Prophet Adam (PBUH), then this raises its status vis-?-vis other languages since its initiation. We may infer that out of all languages that had been revealed to Prophet Adam (PBUH), Arabic was the only language exclusively chosen by God to enjoy those innately incomparable superior features in order to fulfill its destined Qur'anic role i.e., in order to demonstrate miraculously the obvious difference between human and Divine eloquences. Of course, languages other than Arabic were used by God or His prophets before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), but by raising the charismatically inspired features of Arabic to Prophet Adam's time (PBUH), we may also say that not even one of the languages revealed to those Prophets was intended to demonstrate the dimension Arabic had had to convey. Previous prophetic messages were instead concerned with the content that could have been expressed in any language. The content of previous languages of revelation was stressed by external miracles which were outside the realm of human speech, but the content of the final revealed message was mainly stressed by its Divine and inimitable expression .
In short, Arabic had a special start in preparation for a special future function. That is why we have seen al-Jahiz's explanation of the literary excellence of Arabs as being "almost inspirational"[49], i.e., drawing from the Divine pool, implying that it could not have been learnt or acquired. Similarly was the case with Prophets Adam (PBUH), Ismacil (PBUH) and Muhammad,(PBUH), because perfection in Arabic eloquence can only be sought from the reservoirs of God whereby no one can rival Him in this respect. This outlook reflects another Muctazilitic way[50] for expressing their concern to apply monotheism or Tawhid (here, uniqueness of power of speech of God) in all aspects; a concern that sometimes had grown out of its (Muctazilitic) proportions, and unintentionally bridged the gap with the Hanbalite's or "Jabrite's" concept of God, especially when one prominent member like al-Jahiz held that although it appears that man had had a share in the linguistic development undertaken by Arabic[51], it was in fact ? al-Jahiz says ? God who was the Hidden and Real Architect of events, Sole Supervisor and Unique Perfector of Arabic[52].
:voodoo:
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 26, 2008, 11:08:36 PM
And the hyporcrites are neither for or from you, they are swaying inbetween neither belonging to either side... is what i thought...too.............................................. :peace:
Peace Anthony and all:
I Think I and others posted all the Quranic and Biblic Signs that support our points; on the other hand, Ayman and His Sect did provide theirs (dictionary and 7:12).
I think I'm done with this debate because I do not have any more new Proofs to provide, except one more, which is about Should the Blind fast or not;
as you Know Ayman and his Sect say that Blind should not Fast, but God says otherwise. Here are the ones who should not Fast according to God:
(Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the prescribed number from days later. For those who can do it is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free-will―it is better for him, and it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew. (2-184)
Now, the Blind is excused From two thing, according to God:
it is no fault in the blind nor in one born lame, nor in one afflicted with illness, nor in yourselves, that ye should eat in your own houses, or those of your fathers, or your mothers, or your brothers, or your sisters, or your father's brothers, or your father's sisters, or your mother's brothers, or your mother's sisters, or in houses of which the keys are in your possession or in the house of a sincere friend of yours: there is no blame on you, whether ye eat in company or separately. But if ye enter houses, salute each other― a greeting or blessing and purity as from Allah. Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: that ye may understand. (24-61)
No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): but he that obeys Allah and His Messenger― (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty. (48-17)
NOW, To Ayman Sect, Would you still TRUST HIM after knowing that he approved what God Did Not Approve? If you follow Him, You are Making him Equal To God.
May God Lead the True Believers to The Truth.
:sun:
Peace Afridi,
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AMSo how about this i know you will say it is written by Muslims so not trust worthy.
http://archaeologynews.multiply.com/journal/item/212
This is a news blog not an academic article. It doesn?t say anything useful.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AMyou said that Arabic was derived from Aramaic now let us find out how a reach and superior language can be derived from inferior language.
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
You didn?t understand what I said. It is not uncommon that people who never studied linguistics confuse language and script as you did. The Arabic language is from an entirely different branch of Semitic languages than Aramaic. Aramaic is from the Western Semitic branch while Arabic is from the Southern Semitic branch. So Arabic is certainly not derived from Aramaic.
What I stated is that the Arabic SCRIPT is actually the Nabataean Aramaic script. This is not what I say, this is an indisputable fact based on physical evidence. Script and language are two different issues. When I write ?bism allah alrahman alrahim?, it is still Arabic language but using the English script. So the Arabic language that you are reading in the great reading is actually written in a foreign script. This is why dotting had to be used since Nabataean Aramaic only has 22 letters to Arabic?s 28. On the other hand, Arabian scripts have the full 28 letters of Arabic. Here is an example of the real Arabian script:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/image007.jpg
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AMIn what may be described as one of the earliest comparative linguistic attempts, al-Jahiz concludes that whereas the languages and ideas of non-Arabs had followed a process of immense meditation and long exercise of the mind, and rested heavily on studying books[1], Arabic language and thought, he says ? while attempting to historize for the pre-Qur'anic period ? were uniquely spontaneous[2] and were almost inspired. Words were at the Arabs' disposal once they wanted them, and were uttered in abundance without exerting any extraordinary effort. The Arabs were not like those who needed to memorize the knowledge of others deliberately, nor had they to artificially model their speech in the form of those who preceded them. They could not but transmit what hey naturally found palatable and close to their hearts and minds[3].
The above is simply a decorated way of saying that while Aramaic and Greeks were prestige languages of literary and religious books, Arabic was a vernacular street language.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
Furthermore, Arabic has a charming simplicity and smoothness to learners, provided, that there exists a genuine need to know it.[4]
People do not go to school to learn an oral vernacular. They learn it intrinsically. Hence, even illiterate people can speak very well the vernacular that they speak at home and on the streets.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
Those who question al-Jahiz's opinion are advised by him to visit Arabia and meet its most eloquent poets and orators in order to have a direct taste of Arabic[5].
I have visited Arabia many times and spoken with nomads and heard poets and orators and none of them speaks Classical Arabic.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
2 Richness
Arabic expression, "البيان العربي", al-Jahiz adds, "has no equal, and Arabic language has no parallel in its richness and wealth."[6] This richness is attributed by al-Jahiz to an incomparable synonymic[7] and derivative[8] nature of Arabic. Al-Jahiz says,
"The Arabs have been 'more' eloquent in their expression and they enjoyed a language which was 'richer' in vocabulary, 'terser' and (uniquely) precise in word, the composition of its speech was 'more varied' and the application of proverbs which were in use therein were outstanding and more current".[9]
This is false. Arabic is just like any other human language. It is full of inconsistencies and it borrows heavily from other languages. In fact, the majority of words in Arabic are not even ?Arabic? and they come from other languages.
Even the word ?allah? is borrowed from older languages such as Lihyanite and Thamudic where it is ?hn-ilah? (with the hn- Thamudic definite article) and in the contracted form as ?hnlh? all of which mean ?the god? or ?the deity (previously mentioned)?. In the contracted form, Arabic replaces the Thamudic definite article with the Arabic ?al? definite article to make is ?allh?.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
3 A Divine gift or a human product?
One may ask how was it that the literary excellence of the Arabs preceded their cultural excellence? i.e., how did it happen that Arabic reached a certain level of maturity (before Islam) prior to the actual appearance of their civilization? Was there an Arabic civilization before the Arabic language matured to its pre-Qur'anic stage? Was it an outcome of a gradual agreement among Arabs? Or was it installed in form and content all of a sudden?
There was no Arabic ?literary excellence? prior to the great reading. Like all oral languages, Arabic was not a language of literacy and literary or religious compositions. Such role is preserved for the written languages of prestige.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
These questions bring us closer to al-Jahiz's view of the relation between Arabic and the Qur'an.
Not only the Qur'an was divinely revealed, Arabic itself (amongst other languages) was also inspired. Adam (PBUH) is said to have been the first speaker of Arabic[10],
This is idiotic nonsense. Compared to other Semitic languages, Arabic is relatively modern. The earliest Arabic inscription is dated to the 2nd century CE. If you read the article?s references your will see that reference [10] refers to nothing but al-Jahiz?s own Al-Bayan wa-al-Tabyin. Also, the language of the great reading and pre-Quranic Arabic inscriptions is vastly different to the Abbasid era literary language that later became known as Classical Arabic and that Al-Jahiz refers to.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
the language that was exclusively endowed with a unique capacity to grow and increase in perfection and was enriched with unique incomparable features in order to allow it to demonstrate the miraculous difference between human and divine eloquences.
Arabic isn?t some miraculous language that descended from the sky. It is unbelievable that people in this day and age believe in such unscientific nonsense.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
According to a Hashimite report[11], al-Jahiz says that an outstanding Arabic was later initiated in the person of the Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) who is said to have become an outstanding speaker of Arabic, not after proper instruction but because of a divine miracle that shifted his tongue and character to Arabic. That shift was a proof to the truth of his prophethood[12]. So Ismacil (PBUH) stood in relation to his people in the same relation Muhammad (PBUH) was to stand before Quraysh[13]. In both instances the miracle was in the sudden way each excelled the native speakers of Arabic before him.
This is so funny that it is sad that in this day and age people still believe it.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
What happened between Prophet Ismacil's time (PBUH) and the pre-Qur'anic stage of Arabic maturity? al-Jahiz's answer is interesting, as it reflects a developmental outlook within the overall inspirational outlook to Arabic. In other words, al-Jahiz gives room for a human role in the journey undertaken by Arabic. According to al-Jahiz, Arabic was a bounty-lent[14] by God to the Arabs. It was God who provided the Arabs with the chance of exercising and experimenting with that bounty, thanks to the superior synonymic and derivative capacities endowed in it, before the time came to reveal the difference between human and Divine eloquences of Arabic.
Until Arabic reached its pre-Qur'anic stage, al-Jahiz's account of the journey made by Arabic may hypothetically be sketched as follows:
1- Prophet Adam (PBUH): first Divine inspiration of Arabic with potentialities of excellence which were not given to other languages inspired to Adam (PBUH).
2- The Arabs: were offered God's bounty to experiment and enrich it in Arabia[15].
3- Prophet Ismacil's (PBUH) outstanding Arabic in relation to the Arabic of the people around him.
4- Pre-Islamic Arabs continued exercising with God's lent bounty until they produced an unprecedented literary output. al-Jahiz's rough estimation of the oldest poetry before Islam does not precede it by more than two hundred years[16]. His other estimate of an (indefinite) but longer[17] period does not go as far as the period that witnessed Greek wisdom. In both cases it is implied in al-Jahiz's attitude that Arabic had been undergoing a growing line of excellence which was proportional to its proximity to Islam. This observation applied to all Arabs, initially the Northerners then followed by the Southerners who could not avoid joining the circle of Arabic due to the common geographic setting, and frequent inter-marriages with the Northerners[18].
5- Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) outstanding Arabic in relation to the Arabic of his people; Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) sudden excellence in Arabic, ranks after the Qur'an in the hierarchy of excellence[19].
6- The unsurpassable Qur'anic Arabic.
7- Post-Islamic Arabic.
The above is nothing but imaginary Abbasid era tales. Again, what is amazing are not the tales but that people forget their god-given common sense and believe in such ridiculous fairy tales. You might as well believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth-fairy.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
So what al-Jahiz believes to have occurred to Arabic in the meantime, is eventually evident in the superior literary status of its most notable clan, Quraysh. Quraysh is said to have been subjected to the strictest divine supervision that "eliminated genetic impurities (and raised it in its literary and socio-moral excellences over all other Arabian tribes) in preparation for all that is magnificent and most significant"[20], al-Jahiz says:
"وقريش قوم لم يزل الله تعالى يقلبهم في الأرحام البريئة من الآفات وينقّلهم من الأصلاب السليمة من العاهات ويعبّيهم لكل جسيم ويربيهم لكل عظيم".
[Wa Quraysh qawmun lam yazal Allahu ta?ala yuqallibuhum fi al-arham al-bari?a min al-aafat, wa yunaqqiluhum min al-aslab al-salima min al-?Aahat, wa yu?abbihum likul jasim wa yurabbihum likul ?azeem]
Sounds like Abbasid era Nazi propaganda for the fascist Abbasid to justify their divine right to rule.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
al-Jahiz's own description of the literary status of Quraysh[21] and the Pre-Islamic Arabs[22] sums up his view of Arabic mentioned above; i.e., of an inspired supervised Arabic. According to al-Jahiz, Arabic had been miraculously enriched, initiated and divinely nurtured until it reached its pre-Qur'anic destined stage of maturity whereby Arabic and the Arabs were both to experience and witness an unusual charming Arabic, the Qur'an, that had an unprecedented arrangement (Nazm ), a new literary configuration that assembled their very own alphabets and words yet which lies beyond their literary level of superiority, and stays unsurpassable!
As the article says, this is nothing but ?Al-Jahiz's own description of the literary status of Quraysh? which has nothing to do with reality since Al-Jahiz wrote this in the 9th century CE, centuries after the fact.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
4 Divine ' Qisma'
Al-Jahiz substantiates his original thesis of the divine origin of Arabic by making another comparative study, this time among the Arabian tribes themselves; he says:
"While some Arabian tribes had shared the same fertile geographical setting, they however exhibited different poetical output. Thus, there was no relation between the geographical setting and poetical output. Poetry and power of expression, are due to "ما قسم الله", i.e., what Allah has allocated (Qasama)"[23]
And reference [23] refers to another of Al-Jahiz?s inspired jewels of nonsense, Kitab Al-Hayawan. Do you really think that the god told Al-Jahiz how he allocated anything?
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
According to al-Jahiz the invisible caring hand of God was not confined to the Arabs alone, but was also responsible for the virtues of all other nations. For example, the Greeks were also gifted with wisdom, the Persians with political management, the Turks with military strength, etc.
Before the great reading, the Arabs had nothing. Their last glory days were during the times of the Nabataeans in the 4th century and they ended at the hands of the Romans.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 27, 2008, 11:07:35 AM
The Arabs were endowed with the Arabic language and its corresponding socio-moral code, which al-Jahiz calls: "حظ العربية", "the fortune of Arabic" (Hazz al-cArabiyya)[24].
Again he says:
"God's Justice ordained that His bounties be evenly divided among His creations, by giving each generation and every nation its right share, that is conducive to the correct understanding of religion and leading to the perfection of the world's welfare"[25].
I am certain that reference [25] doesn?t refer to anything that the god actually said so it is nothing but Al-Jahiz?s fantasy and not anything that the god ordained.
The rest of the article is more of the same nonsense and shameless Abbasid era fascist Arab nationalistic propaganda. It is amazing how they managed to fit so much nonsense in one article and it is more amazing that educated people in this day and age believe it. I think I have said enough and I will let other knowledgeable people here comment on such nonsense.
Thanks for posting Dr. Attar?s article on Al-Jahiz. It further proves that my article and the work that I am presently doing in this area are badly needed.
Peace,
Ayman
youll be haven some long posts!
Salaaman Hammad,
My stand is the same as yours. :handshake:
But not on brother Ayman and others :nope:
But about blind. I also think that Allah is the ONE who clarifies aayaats VERY clearly. And He would have added the blind also in the list of Ill and Journey. Allah never run out of words nor He forget nor anything will miss from His knowledge. He is the ONLY all Knower.
May Allah guide us all towards the path that He has chosen for us :pr
Regards,
mmKhan
Peace,
Thanks for that Afridi. It was very good.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 27, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
Peace,
Thanks for that Afridi. It was very good.
Godbless,
Anwar
Thank you and welcome
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2008, 12:03:55 AM
Peace Anthony,
Now who here on this thread hasn't changed their inherited timing of the fast based on the god's signs?
Who has been using the great reading not to find out the timing but to work backwards to justify a preconceived timing? Answer this and you will see who is exactly like the dog example described in 7:175-176, you give them the god's signs or not, they keep doing the same thing. This is why it is better to ignore them as I have been doing.
Anyone can mindlessly copy and paste passages from the great reading. So notice that they throw at you 2:189 and 2:197 but they don't tell you how their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja is based on those passages. This is because of the fact is that their timing for the pilgrimage and for fast is entirely based on Hadiths and not on anything in the great reading.
The believers are ALWAYS divided from the hypocrites and the sectarians. If letting go of all preconceptions and following the god's clear signs causes division away from the hypocrites and the sectarians then we must be doing something right.
The hypocrites know who they are. They are claiming to follow the great reading while all they are really doing is defending their inherited preconceptions. Hence they mindlessly copy and paste passages from the great reading without following those passages. I think that it is clear on this thread who they are.
Peace,
Ayman
:peace:
So should we follow your calender for the fast and pilgramage, ect...? And when are the restricted months anyways ( me want to kill some of those who set up partners ;D )
And how do you know that what he copy and paste is not what he wants to say?
And also I think the hyporcrites and all practise the same rites or whatever you want to call it. What I ment by all fast at the same time weather hyporcrite or believer or sect, ect... God knows what is in the hearts.
Example: " some of the people say they believe. But they do not believe. " So, the believers say they believe and also the hyporcrites say they believe and also the sects say they believe , and so on....
i hope im maken sence, if not then dont worry about it.
:peace: all
The dividers are the ones who have taken the Quran as obsolete.
Peace everyone,
17:12 does not cancel any other verse. 10:5 and 17:12 talk about how to know the number of years AND the calculation and there is no contradiction. These verses talk about a calendar (which includes both year and other time periods within the year) and not just year. If they had mentioned only year then there would have been a major contradiction.
Knowing the number of years AND the calculation = Calendar
By combining 10:5 and 17:12, it follows that the calendar is luni-solar. Day, night, sun, and moon can all be used to calculate time periods, but the year can only be solar because of the following reasons:
1. The year cannot be both lunar and solar because the lunar year will not be consistent with the solar year and therefore lunar months will not remain consistent with the actual seasons. The hunting restriction can only be in the same season consistently every year because the breeding of animals occurs in the same seasonal time period every year.
2. The year cannot be lunar because then the same lunar months will not occur in the same seasons all the time and because the hunting restriction is determined by "the restricted shuhoor", the time of hunting restriction will not coincide with the seasons year after year which will eventually result in killing of animals in their breeding season.
3. The only way to synchronize the time period of hunting restriction with the seasons without violating both 17:12 and 10:5 and making sure that the same four restricted "shuhoor" occur in the same season every year is by using a solar year. Therefore, the year can only be solar.
Keeping this in mind and using such a luni-solar calendar, there will be 11 lunar months in a solar year for 2 consecutive years and 12 lunar months in the 3rd year. Therefore, the "shuhoor" in 9:36 cannot mean "lunar cycles/months" because it is impossible to count 12 lunar cycles/months in every solar year.
I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO COUNT 12 LUNAR MONTHS IN EVERY SOLAR YEAR.
The "shuhoor" in 9:36 can only mean "full-moons" because we will be able to count 12 full-moons in every solar year. Whenever the 13th full-moon occurs we just ignore/skip it and count only the first 12 full-moons. This way the same "shuhoor" will always coincide with the same actual seasons. This does not cancel/contradict any quranic verse and proves beyond a shadow of doubt that "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
9:36 mentions "counting shuhoor" and not the "number of shuhoor". Everyone, do yourselves a favor and open a calendar with moon phases marked in it and then count the "lunar months" in every solar year and that will be empirical verification of my above statements. You can use the following website if you wish:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html
Peace all --
Sorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 28, 2008, 04:26:31 PM
I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO COUNT 12 LUNAR MONTHS IN EVERY SOLAR YEAR.
The "shuhoor" in 9:36 can only mean "full-moons" because we will be able to count 12 full-moons in every solar year. Whenever the 13th full-moon occurs we just ignore/skip it and count only the first 12 full-moons.
Not saying it's correct; as you drop/skip every 13th full moon one can also skip the 13th new moon and that 12 months has to equal exactly one solar year are your words not Quran.
Although, we cannot continue further until MONTH or FULL MOON is resolved first.
Full Moon Dates 2008September 15
October 14
November 13
The same person depending on date of offense:
IF before FULL MOON on Sept. 14 will fast until Oct. 14th or 29 days
IF after a FULL MOON on Sept. 16 will fast until Nov. 13 or 58 days
4:92? so who does not find, so fasting TWO MONTHS following each other, a repentance from at God, and God is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
To tell the same person and offense fast ONLY 29 days if on this date and 58 days on another date is a HUGE contradiction and direct disobedience to God.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 28, 2008, 11:33:30 PM
Peace all --
Sorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.
To tell the same person and offense fast ONLY 29 days if on this date and 58 days on another date is a HUGE contradiction and direct disobedience to God.
Brother Nun , How are you now, let our prayers be with you in help to recover you faster.
Fasyaam ul shareen.
could it be the period between two consective full moons? that is to say 29 or 30 days only?
He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again.
peace
siki
Quote from: siki on September 29, 2008, 12:26:30 AM
He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again.
peace
siki
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 28, 2008, 11:33:30 PM
Sorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.
Hope you are feeling better and have a speedy recovery. I would suggest you to start taking wheatgrass powder and powdered greens (mixture of many powdered vegetables and fruits) in a glass of water every day.
Quote from: NunNot saying it's correct; as you drop/skip every 13th full moon one can also skip the 13th new moon and that 12 months has to equal exactly one solar year are your words not Quran.
Although, we cannot continue further until MONTH or FULL MOON is resolved first.
I really wish you pay more attention to what other people say because it looks like you just skim the posts and then reply to something that the other person never said. This has been a recurrent theme in your replies.
I never said that 12 months have to exactly equal one solar year. 9:36 tells us that the
COUNT of "shuhoor" is 12. I stated that it is impossible to
COUNT 12 lunar cycles/months in
every solar year. Try it yourself. You will be able to
count 11 consecutive lunar cycles/months
within a solar year for 2 consecutive years and then 12 lunar cycles/months in the 3rd year.
THEREFORE, "SHUHOOR" IN 9:36 CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTHS.On the other hand, you will be able to
count 12 full-moons in every solar year. This resolves that "shuhoor" can only mean "full-moons" and not "lunar cycles/months".
You can also count 12 new moons in every solar year but "shahr" cannot be translated as "new moon" but can be translated as "full-moon".
Siki has already replied to second part of your post and I fully agree with what he said.
Quote from: Sikicould it be the period between two consective full moons? that is to say 29 or 30 days only?
He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again.
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 28, 2008, 11:33:30 PMSorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.
I am sorry to hear about your ordeal and I thank the god that you are now well enough to post and I pray that you are on your way to a speedy recovery.
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 28, 2008, 11:33:30 PMNot saying it's correct; as you drop/skip every 13th full moon one can also skip the 13th new moon and that 12 months has to equal exactly one solar year are your words not Quran.
The great reading mentions "crescents" in general in 2:189 and not "new-moon". So unless you are changing your position that "shahr" means "month" and you are now proposing that it means "new moon" then the term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading and therefore your alternate scenario is not a valid example.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone and thank you each for the well wishes.
I?m feeling well and was in constant pain for 17 hours waiting for diagnosis and two days straight non stop vomiting every hour after surgery. They tell me it was the opiate anesthesia drug and now I know a bit why it?s difficult for heroin addicts to quit their addiction.
God taught me that no burden is too great on any individual and reaffirmed priorities on faith, health, and family before the material things.
Anyway, back to the topic...
Quote from: siki on September 29, 2008, 12:26:30 AMBrother Nun , How are you now, let our prayers be with you in help to recover you faster. Fasyaam ul shareen. could it be the period between two consective full moons? that is to say 29 or 30 days only? He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again. peace siki
Peace brother Siki,
Therefore to be consistent,
IF divorced woman (non menstruating, any age puberty to menses)
They wait 3 Full Moons = 58 days regardless
In addition, those who see the FULL MOON, must fast it.
1 Full Moon = 1 day fast
Do you see the above contradictions?
Peace truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 29, 2008, 10:56:41 AM
Hope you are feeling better and have a speedy recovery. I would suggest you to start taking wheatgrass powder and powdered greens (mixture of many powdered vegetables and fruits) in a glass of water every day.
Thank you, will do.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 29, 2008, 10:56:41 AM
I really wish you pay more attention to what other people say because it looks like you just skim the posts and then reply to something that the other person never said. This has been a recurrent theme in your replies.
Please lay off starting every post with an assumption and especially clich? dictionary buzz words (i.e. fallacious arguments) stuff.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 29, 2008, 10:56:41 AM
I never said that 12 months have to exactly equal one solar year. 9:36 tells us that the COUNT of "shuhoor" is 12. I stated that it is impossible to COUNT 12 lunar cycles/months in every solar year. Try it yourself. You will be able to count 11 consecutive lunar cycles/months within a solar year for 2 consecutive years and then 12 lunar cycles/months in the 3rd year. THEREFORE, "SHUHOOR" IN 9:36 CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTHS.
No, you auto-assume 12 lunar months have to equal one solar year.
Quran says...
9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture
There are 12 months ? that?s all.
IF to sync with each solar year or every 19 solar years is still a matter of study.
Although as stated earlier this month or full moon issue needs to be put to rest. When diagnosing any solution it's best to divide into it's smallest components and once solved move on else one will get entangled caught in a web of confusion. This is the same trap the 19 followers got into when their solution involved removing two verses to fit their theory ? big contradiction with the rest of the book cannot stand.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 29, 2008, 10:56:41 AM
Siki has already replied to second part of your post and I fully agree with what he said.
See above...
Peace Ayman,
I meant skip a month; should be same lunar calendar ? start/skip full moon or start/skip a month starting with a new crescent. Only posting a possibility.
Please don?t take any these disagreements personally. I?m sure we are all sincere although we need to keep an open mind and I?m ready to change as long as a better understanding which does not contradict is found.
This is all healthy dialog same as the thread on inheritance which thanks to Samia I changed my understanding at least 3 times since the start of the year as it became clear and was able to address EVERY contradiction -- that is the criterion, the correct, and best meaning per Quran.
We can disagree on meaning of words although there can be no disagreement on simple things such as how many days to wait after divorce or to fast.
Peace
Peace,
This post is not directed to or a response to anyone in particular.
First I wanna say to each his own. I see that we are all gonna have to make our decisions personally, because there will be no consensus here. Secondly in defense of people who use the term ''new moon" they mean waxing crescent. In reality a new moon is not visible and is after the waning crescent disapears and before the waxing crescent appears again. But I think those who use new moon mean to say waxing crescent and that should be understood and corrected with comprehension when someone uses the wrong term, not manipulated, twisted and spit back as a counter argument.
Second I wanna say that a year can be counted in different ways. There is the solstice year (whch I have a hunch is connected more to the term sanah (being seasonal years) or just from one season until the repetition of that same season), there is a year where the same day comes back around or the beginning of the same season (that in my hunch is more connected to hawl as the revolution of a certain day or season), then there are years based on fixed calendars, hence we have Jewish, Buddhist, hindu, Chinese, Islamic etc. new years which are based on different fixed calendar systems (I think this concept of a year is more connected to the term 3aam, based on the Quran's usage of this word in a possesive way in relation to the Arabs of the Quran's time.) With that said I'm sure there have been years where 12 lunar cycles have fit within a solstice based year. All we have to do is follow any particlar Islamic month backwards until it occurs directly after the solstice, or project forward to such an event.
Third I wanted to say that 2:183 brings up the topic of fasting, 2:184 lays down exceptions to fast and that a ransom/compensation/substitute for a fast is feeding a needy person 2:185: mentions how a shahr of Ramadan is a time for fasting 2:186: clarifies our relationship with God 2:187 tells us that a fast is a daily event done during daylight hours and lets us know that whereas eating may be fine in a place of worship at the end of the fast sex is not.
With that clear I would like to repeat that every daily fast that can be compensated/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person. 58:4 lets us know using the previous passages that 2 months = 60 daily fasts i.e. 60 days.
Hence the equation is 1 needy person = 1 daily fast = 1 day. And knowing that 2 shahr = 60 needy persons = 60 daily fasts = 60 days. Knowing that, I don't think it is difficult to know that 1 shahr = 30 days.
Again I will repeat the key idea here: Every daily fast that can be compensated/subsituted/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person
If fasting is the last option then it cannot be compensated/ransomed/substituted for and previous options before fasting cannot be seen as compensations, ransoms or subsitutes for fasting because fasting in such contexts has NO compensation. Hence these occurence cannot be included in these equations because they are incompensatable and unsubstitutable fasts. Some such contexts for reference are: 4:92, 2:196, 5:89.
So with that said I think it is quite obvious that the Quran concept of shahr = 30 days. I've shown how as it concerns the dictionaries defintions 29 sunset to sunset days translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
In addition to that and in closing. The concept of ramadan in the dictionaries has nothing to do with the color red, orange or yellow. It has only to do with the senation of intense heat, be that from weather, from friction or from occular irritation. So assuming that ramadan has something to do with the color red is an assumption NOT found in the dictionaries and with no evidence pointing to any possiblity that the Quran means the color red when it uses any form of the root word ramada.
Also I don't see 9:36 as a command in any fashion. But a statement that there have been 12 shahr in how God decreed things to be since he made the heavens in the earth. This gives me the impression that even before mankind was involved in this whole figuring out and counting a shahr deal that there were always just 12 of them in a year (the yearly context is clarified in 9:37 with the use of the term an-nasee') And as it concerns 3adad and 3iddah. the meaning of these terms can overlap. Literally adad is what is counted, and 3iddah is a count. But if we assume that a day has 24 hours, both the hours counted and the count of hours is 24, and hence the meaning becomes the same. So i find arguments based on the difference between these two words about the meaning of shahr or how many shahr are in a year and whether we are to leave out the 13th full moon if we take shahr as full moon becomes too semantical and word playish. It's the difference between saying the count of months and the number of months, and frankly although there is a difference, emphasizing it to prove a point is word play. In the end the count is God's (Inna 3iddata ash-shuhoori 3ANDA ALLAHI) and not ours and I think it is fair to expect that his count would be representative of what really is.
This is how I see it. There is no need for a barrage of attacks or repeats of previous counter arguments. I just wanted those interested to read my conclusions, observations and logic of the whole issue instead of thinking I have any personal interest in attacking Ayman or truthseeker's (proponents of the Red solstice moon theory for shahru ramadaana) or those who still believe that shahr should be Quranically seen as a lunar cycle begining and ending with the waxing crescent which I disagree with as well based on the obvious issue a 12 month lunar year poses for representing accurate and stable dates.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on September 29, 2008, 06:51:40 PM
With that clear I would like to repeat that every daily fast that can be compensated/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person. 58:4 lets us know using the previous passages that 2 months = 60 daily fasts i.e. 60 days.
Hence the equation is 1 needy person = 1 daily fast = 1 day. And knowing that 2 shahr = 60 needy persons = 60 daily fasts = 60 days. Knowing that, I don't think it is difficult to know that 1 shahr = 30 days.
Again I will repeat the key idea here: Every daily fast that can be compensated/subsituted/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person
If fasting is the last option then it cannot be compensated/ransomed/substituted for and previous options before fasting cannot be seen as compensations, ransoms or subsitutes for fasting because fasting in such contexts has NO compensation. Hence these occurence cannot be included in these equations because they are incompensatable and unsubstitutable fasts. Some such contexts for reference are: 4:92, 2:196, 5:89.
So with that said I think it is quite obvious that the Quran concept of shahr = 30 days. I've shown how as it concerns the dictionaries defintions 29 sunset to sunset days translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
Anwar
Peace brother Anwar
Your above deductions are wrong , because when i investigated , i did not find any fix formula for the conversions of punishments with the compensation of a skipped fast. let me show you.
4-92. killing a believer,=
Free a slave= Fast fasyaam ul shahreen.
2-196 . breaking state of iharam=animal sacrifice= 3 days fasting during haj+ 7 days once we come back, and then the ayah says that , ,,,, so that you complete the count of 10. (Note this one, this gives me an important clue)
5-89.breaking an oath=feeding or clothing 10 people=
freeing a slave=fast 3 days.
If you see above, there is no set formula, freeing a slave is equvilant to fasting for 30 days or three days at another place,
peace
siki
Quote from: siki on September 29, 2008, 10:19:53 PM
2-196 . breaking state of iharam=animal sacrifice= 3 days fasting during haj+ 7 days once we come back, and then the ayah says that , ,,,, so that you complete the count of 10. (Note this one, this gives me an important clue)
There is been sufficent evidence in favour of Aymans idea of sharr rammadan , but however there has been little support of his 10 day fasting theory.
While replying Anwar and brother Nun , i did find two more evidence from Quran in favour of his 10 days fasting.
In -2-196 If one breaks the state of ihram , the last compensation is 3 days of fasting during hajj and 7 more days when one comes back , and then the ayahh adds,
so that you complete the count of 10?why Does God want us to complete the count of 10, and says so too? wasnt 3+7 sufficient? there was no need to add this last sentence , i think he wanted to stress upon the count of 10.
If we had to fast for the whole month , why did he say "for a count of days" ? Because when ever his fasting number of days has changed from days to the bigger unit , he has always used the bigger unit, the equvilant of 30 days/month, Fasyamm ul shareen.
so if Fasyyam ul shareen turns out to be the period between two full moons,(30 days, or one month), coupled with the evidence in 2-196
" so that you complete the count of 10", definitely points towards the Number of days for fasting being
10. not
29 or 30.Moreover he uses the word
"siteen" for feeding 60 poor , but does not use
"siteen ayaam" for fast. ;D probably he trusts our counting 60 poor on the spot but , wants us to start from a reference/marker (Full moon) for a lengthy count over a period of 30 days.
peace
siki
Peace everyone,
I agree with Siki. I would just like to add certain things.
The hajj is supposed to be for "ayyaam ma'doodaat" (2:203) and the fasting is also for "ayyaam ma'doodaat" (2:184). The same phrase is used in both places. If "ayyaam ma'doodaat" means 30 days and fasting is for 30 days then hajj should be for 30 days too. :nope:
An important clue is given by "whoever hurries to two days" in 2:203, which means that the lower limit of "ayyaam ma'doodaat" is 3 days. This confirms that "ayyaam ma'doodaat" most likely refers to the numbers 3 and above. This combined with similar phrases:
"complete ten" -------------> in 2:196 pertaining to compensatory fasting,
"complete the count" -------> in 2:185 pertaining to fasting in scorching heat,
makes it most likely that "ayyaam ma'doodaat" refers to any number from 3-10, and complete the count means complete the count of 10 days.
Now let us discuss "Anwar month", which by his definition (in his imaginary wonderland) consists of exactly 30 days.
If shahr already means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month) in 2:185, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant. But, I forgot that God's book is full of redundancies. :brickwall:
If shahr means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month), then "falyasumhu"/fast it would mean fasting for 30 days straight without any break, which would be impossible. But, I forgot that God asks us to do impossible super human feats in his book. :brickwall:
If shahr means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month), then the count of such Anwar months in a solar year would be 12 and 1/6. God has used words for fractions in al-quran and 1/6 in Arabic is "sudus". If shahr meant "Anwar months" then God should have said "the count of shuhoor is ithna 'ashara wa sudus". But, I forgot that God does not know how to count in fractions! :brickwall:
If shahr means "Anwar month" then 12 such months would be 360 days and that will leave 5 days in a solar year. If we skip those five days to start the next "Anwar month", then the last month will have 35 days, not 30, and "Anwar month's" definition will automatically be contradicted. :brickwall:
If shahr means "Anwar month", then al-quran was descended in an "Anwar month" according to one verse (2:185), but descended in one night according to two other verses (44:3, 97:1). But, I forgot that God's book is full of contradictions. :brickwall:
If shahr means "Anwar month", then how can we witness such an Anwar month as per 2:185? :brickwall:
What is so special about those 30 magical days that we can witness them? :brickwall:
Even if those 30 days are special and different from other days in Anwar's wonderland, witnessing the shahr would require witnessing all 30 days BEFORE we start fasting. We can start fasting only AFTER we have witnessed the 30 days, to make sure we have witnessed the Anwar month. We cannot fast during those 30 magical days, because then we have not witnessed the Anwar month yet; but then how long do we fast? :brickwall:
Quote from: NunNo, you auto-assume 12 lunar months have to equal one solar year.
Straw man, again and again and again and again and again :brickwall:
I keep asking him to show how we can
count 12 lunar months in
every solar year, and when he fails to do that, he keeps insisting on building straw man, and attributing something to me that I never said or assumed.
Quote from: NunIn addition, those who see the FULL MOON, must fast it.
1 Full Moon = 1 day fast
Yes, they fast it by fasting one day, and
then they complete the count by fasting 9 more days.
Quote from: NunTherefore to be consistent,
IF divorced woman (non menstruating, any age puberty to menses)
They wait 3 Full Moons = 58 days regardless
Then menstruating women should also wait for 3 perfectly regular menstruations which always last for the same time and occur at equal intervals in Nun's wonderland.
He cannot understand the difference between fasting for two full-moons and waiting for 3 full-moons after divorce. They are not counted the same way. :brickwall:
When you fast for 2 full-moons, you don't fast before the full-moons but from one full-moon to the other full-moon. However, when you wait for 3 full-moons after divorce, you have to include the time between divorce and the first full-moon also, just like you include the time between divorce and first menstruation in menstruating women.
Quote from: Nun9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture
The Arabic word is "'iddata" meaning "count", not "number".
Quote from: NunThere are 12 months ? that?s all.
Then
count 12 lunar months in
every solar year as challenged earlier, if you are truthful.
These points have been repeated over and over again ad nauseam. The readers can make up their own minds, because only God can guide us. I am out of this discussion.
Peace everyone,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 30, 2008, 12:30:13 AM
On one hand God is asking menstruating women to wait for 3 events with an irregular time interval between those events, and on the other hand God is asking women whose menopause is doubtful to wait for 3 regular time periods. This is not consistent. But, I forgot that God's book is very inconsistent. :brickwall:
Are you OK?
It IS very consistent!
Wait 3 cycles or 3 months which ever comes first.
NOT consistent IS:
IF divorce is day before a full moon wait 58 days = 3 full moons
IF divorce is day after a full moon wait 28 + 58 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a full moon wait 18 + 58 days
IF...
QuoteI keep asking him to show how we can count 12 lunar months in every solar year
Why? Again Quran states 12 months NOT 12 lunar months has to = a solar year.
QuoteThen menstruating women should also wait for 3 perfectly regular menstruations which always last for the same time and occur at equal intervals in Nun's wonderland.
When did I imply such a thing?
I always stated that women are not full moon clocks and each varies.
I will ignore the wonderland comment -- only this one time.
QuoteHe cannot understand the difference between Fasting for two full-moons and waiting for 3 full-moons after divorce. they are not the same. :brickwall:
You do not understand time; date of divorce and menses can vary, etc.
When a person writes they have to make sense.
Quran is logical and you make it sound senseless with terms such as ?fast two consecutive full moons? which is something that even an American Indian would be puzzled.
OK enough of this already ? I REJECT FULL MOON!
END OF CONVERSATION.
Peace everyone,
I forgot another important point about "Anwar month" in my previous post.
We are asked to witness the shahr first and
then fast it in 2:185. In order to witness an Anwar month,
we will have to witness all the 30 magical days BEFORE we start fasting. How can we start fasting in the magical Anwar month before witnessing it completely first? :brickwall:
As everyone can see, Nun is in the habit of quoting things from me that are not in my post. Compare his first quote to my post and you can see for yourself. I could not have edited that
after his post because my edit time finished almost 10 minutes
before his posting time.
What can I say? Straw man, again and again and again and again...................... :brickwall:
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 30, 2008, 01:23:38 AM
NOT consistent IS:
IF divorce is day before a full moon wait 58 days = 3 full moons
IF divorce is day after a full moon wait 28 + 58 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a full moon wait 18 + 58 days
IF...
If this is not consistent then God is not consistent when He asks menstruating women to wait for 3 menstruations.
IF divorce is day before a menstruation wait 54 days = 3 menstruations
IF divorce is day after a menstruation wait 27 + 54 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a menstruation wait 17 + 54 days
Quote from: NunWhy? Again Quran states 12 months NOT 12 lunar months has to = a solar year.
No, al-quran does not state that. It states that the "count" of shuhoor is 12, not that 12 shuhoor = a solar year.
How will Nun define his "month"? If 12 months = a solar year then each month will have 30.416 days. How is that possible? How will he count the 0.416 of a day using cosmic markers?
On the other hand, if by month he means "Anwar month", then its rebuttal has already been given in my previous post. If "shahr" is translated as month, it creates many logical contradictions and inconsistencies as pointed out in my previous post.
Quote from: NunQuran is logical and you make it sound senseless with terms such as ?fast two consecutive full moons? which is something that even an American Indian would be puzzled.
It is very logical. Fasting for 2 consecutive full-moons means you start your daily fast when you see a full-moon and keep fasting every day from daytime to night until you see the second full-moon and then stop.
What is illogical is fasting for 2 consecutive months. How can someone fast non-stop for 2 months without a break? I forgot again; God asks us to perform impossible super human feats in His book.
:brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:
[/quote]
;) I am worried about free minds eastern wall it can break any time needs check up:laugh:
Peace,
For all those who replied to my post I would just urge you to study my post again more carefully and with more honest hearts and minds. And to pay attention to the points I made in bold. Again this is an excercise for yourselves, so there is no need to reply.
I will comment on the 12 and 1/6 comments using a similar example. A decade is 10 years as we all know. If I ask someone how many decades are in 55 years what would the answer be? Simply 5. There are only 5 decades in 55 years. Now if we want to be exact in describing 55 years (and not dealing with the question of how many decades are in 55 years) we can say that 55 years = 5 decades and a half of a decade (and in short-hand or short-tounge if you will you say 5 1/2 decades). But in all essence and truth, half of a decade IS NOT a decade, nor is 50 years a century even if we can describe it as half of a century. I think that is tricky for some because it is an issue of idioms having meaning but not representing reality yet this is very simple. You may go your whole life calling 5 years 'half a decade' but when the question is posed how many decades is 5 years, the answer is none, because 5 yeras is not a decade even if it is half of one. In that same truth 1/6 of a month is not a month. So If there are 12 months and 5 days in a year and someone asks you how many months are in a year you simply say 12, period. 12 1/6 months is an expression to describe 365 days but 1/6 of a month has never been and never will be a month. That is the truth of the matter. If that is too complicated for some or even if no one wants to admit it, it is the truth. It has nothing to do with whether God knows fractions or not. In the case of fraction use in the Quran I have seen that it used in the case of goods. So whereas 1/6 of an apple is still and will stays an apple (that goes for inheritance as well), 1/6 of a month is never and will never be a month.
As for the wonderland comments, I'll just laugh them off :laugh: Peace to all and I hope the sincere can see the truth in what I say. I have posted what I said below for those who may not be able to find what is being responded to here.
Godbless,
Anwar
QuotePeace,
This post is not directed to or a response to anyone in particular.
First I wanna say to each his own. I see that we are all gonna have to make our decisions personally, because there will be no consensus here. Secondly in defense of people who use the term ''new moon" they mean waxing crescent. In reality a new moon is not visible and is after the waning crescent disapears and before the waxing crescent appears again. But I think those who use new moon mean to say waxing crescent and that should be understood and corrected with comprehension when someone uses the wrong term, not manipulated, twisted and spit back as a counter argument.
Second I wanna say that a year can be counted in different ways. There is the solstice year (whch I have a hunch is connected more to the term sanah (being seasonal years) or just from one season until the repetition of that same season), there is a year where the same day comes back around or the beginning of the same season (that in my hunch is more connected to hawl as the revolution of a certain day or season), then there are years based on fixed calendars, hence we have Jewish, Buddhist, hindu, Chinese, Islamic etc. new years which are based on different fixed calendar systems (I think this concept of a year is more connected to the term 3aam, based on the Quran's usage of this word in a possesive way in relation to the Arabs of the Quran's time.) With that said I'm sure there have been years where 12 lunar cycles have fit within a solstice based year. All we have to do is follow any particlar Islamic month backwards until it occurs directly after the solstice, or project forward to such an event.
Third I wanted to say that 2:183 brings up the topic of fasting, 2:184 lays down exceptions to fast and that a ransom/compensation/substitute for a fast is feeding a needy person 2:185: mentions how a shahr of Ramadan is a time for fasting 2:186: clarifies our relationship with God 2:187 tells us that a fast is a daily event done during daylight hours and lets us know that whereas eating may be fine in a place of worship at the end of the fast sex is not.
With that clear I would like to repeat that every daily fast that can be compensated/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person. 58:4 lets us know using the previous passages that 2 months = 60 daily fasts i.e. 60 days.
Hence the equation is 1 needy person = 1 daily fast = 1 day. And knowing that 2 shahr = 60 needy persons = 60 daily fasts = 60 days. Knowing that, I don't think it is difficult to know that 1 shahr = 30 days.
Again I will repeat the key idea here: Every daily fast that can be compensated/subsituted/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person
If fasting is the last option then it cannot be compensated/ransomed/substituted for and previous options before fasting cannot be seen as compensations, ransoms or subsitutes for fasting because fasting in such contexts has NO compensation. Hence these occurence cannot be included in these equations because they are incompensatable and unsubstitutable fasts. Some such contexts for reference are: 4:92, 2:196, 5:89.
So with that said I think it is quite obvious that the Quran concept of shahr = 30 days. I've shown how as it concerns the dictionaries defintions 29 sunset to sunset days translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
In addition to that and in closing. The concept of ramadan in the dictionaries has nothing to do with the color red, orange or yellow. It has only to do with the senation of intense heat, be that from weather, from friction or from occular irritation. So assuming that ramadan has something to do with the color red is an assumption NOT found in the dictionaries and with no evidence pointing to any possiblity that the Quran means the color red when it uses any form of the root word ramada.
Also I don't see 9:36 as a command in any fashion. But a statement that there have been 12 shahr in how God decreed things to be since he made the heavens in the earth. This gives me the impression that even before mankind was involved in this whole figuring out and counting a shahr deal that there were always just 12 of them in a year (the yearly context is clarified in 9:37 with the use of the term an-nasee') And as it concerns 3adad and 3iddah. the meaning of these terms can overlap. Literally adad is what is counted, and 3iddah is a count. But if we assume that a day has 24 hours, both the hours counted and the count of hours is 24, and hence the meaning becomes the same. So i find arguments based on the difference between these two words about the meaning of shahr or how many shahr are in a year and whether we are to leave out the 13th full moon if we take shahr as full moon becomes too semantical and word playish. It's the difference between saying the count of months and the number of months, and frankly although there is a difference, emphasizing it to prove a point is word play. In the end the count is God's (Inna 3iddata ash-shuhoori 3ANDA ALLAHI) and not ours and I think it is fair to expect that his count would be representative of what really is.
This is how I see it. There is no need for a barrage of attacks or repeats of previous counter arguments. I just wanted those interested to read my conclusions, observations and logic of the whole issue instead of thinking I have any personal interest in attacking Ayman or truthseeker's (proponents of the Red solstice moon theory for shahru ramadaana) or those who still believe that shahr should be Quranically seen as a lunar cycle begining and ending with the waxing crescent which I disagree with as well based on the obvious issue a 12 month lunar year poses for representing accurate and stable dates.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace everyone,
Quote from: progod on September 30, 2008, 12:01:13 PMFor all those who replied to my post I would just urge you to study my post again more carefully and with more honest hearts and minds. And to pay attention to the points I made in bold. Again this is an excercise for yourselves, so there is no need to reply.
"I will not pay any attention to constructive criticism of my posts because I have made up my mind and will not change no matter what even if my position contradicts al-quran or creates inconsistencies in it. On the other hand, you guys should pay more attention to what I am saying because I am always right. I am right because of the following logic:
BECAUSE I SAY SO"
:giveup:
Peace everyone,
Quote from: progodSo whereas 1/6 of an apple is still and will stays an apple (that goes for inheritance as well), 1/6 of a month is never and will never be a month.
This is called self-contradiction. I don't know whether to laugh at this or bang my head on the wall, so I will do both :P :laugh: :brickwall:
The fact remains that there are 12 and 1/6 Anwar months in a solar year. If not, then there are 11 Anwar months and the 12th month has 35 days, thus not an Anwar month by definition. Either way it is a glaring inconsistency.
Quote"I will not pay any attention to constructive criticism of my posts because I have made up my mind and will not change no matter what even if my position contradicts al-quran or creates inconsistencies in it. On the other hand, you guys should pay more attention to what I am saying because I am always right. I am right because of the following logic:
BECAUSE I SAY SO"
The problem here I think is that you've only read 3 lines into all of my posts. You will only see it your way then you accuse me of something that you are probably mroe guilty of than I am. If you actually read through my posts you would see the logic and the complete lack of inconsistencies. I have addressed everything that you call an inconsistency and you have done no more than nitpick at my choice of words 'compensate, substitute etc. etc.' So believe me the problem is not mine, and the logic is simple. In every case in the Quran where a fast can be compensated or subsittuted (FOR WHATEVER THE ORIGINAL REASONS FOR THIS FAST MIGHT BE) it is done on a daily basis by feeding one person per day therefore equaling the concpept of 2 shahr to 60 days. All of the responses saying that this is not a Quranic idea or that it is not Quranically consistent have ignored what I just posted above in parenthesis and in caps.
So it is not because I say so, it is because this makes sense and I know that those who have a sincere heart and mind will see this. I am not going to expose what I feel are your motives anymore because whether I am right or wrong you and others will only see them as an attack. But I say this as more of a promise to make an effort on my part. Because if you take things too far I will write what I feel is the truth about your ideas and motivations in this conversation and then I will opt out of the conversation or choose to retort what I feel is releveant and I will not take care to use language that will offend you in the least.
So here is the solution: Now that i have seen your arguments I will state what I have to say to reach out to those who will listen. I have seen that you will not listen, so you can just state what you believe and what you think about my ideas (only referring to the ideas and not to me) and why they are not correct. I will do the same. This is what I have tried to do with my last post by not mentioning names and specifically saying that I have nothing personal agianst you, Ayman or siki for that matter. So to keep this from being a back and forth titt for tatt type of deal, how about we agree to this method of discussion, not mentioning or alluding to each other but rather solely the ideas and conclusions that we espouse here. Thanks and as always . . .
Godbless,
Anwar
QuotePeace everyone,
QuoteQuote from: progod
So whereas 1/6 of an apple is still and will stays an apple (that goes for inheritance as well), 1/6 of a month is never and will never be a month
.
This is called self-contradiction. I don't know whether to laugh at this or bang my head on the wall, so I will do both Tongue laugh brickwall
The fact remains that there are 12 and 1/6 Anwar months in a solar year. If not, then there are 11 Anwar months and the 12th month has 35 days, thus not an Anwar month by definition. Either way it is a glaring inconsistency.
You really in all honesty do not understand that? Roger that. I feel sorry for you man. I will end the conversation here if you are willing. Because you nailed the coffin with this one and if you can't see why then we can just let bygones be bygones. As always . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace everyone,
Please note that Anwar has carefully avoided answering ALL the inconsistencies and contradictions created by his Anwar months, and instead chose to focus only one one or two of them. The answers are conspicuous by their absence!
Peace,
Didn't i warn you against this? Cease and desist the personal provocations and false accusations. Below is my post in quotes. For anyone who wants to see if I have addressed these so-called inconsistencies or not please read my previous posts quoted below. For those who actually read it with sincerity thank you.
QuoteI will comment on the 12 and 1/6 comments using a similar example. A decade is 10 years as we all know. If I ask someone how many decades are in 55 years what would the answer be? Simply 5. There are only 5 decades in 55 years. Now if we want to be exact in describing 55 years (and not dealing with the question of how many decades are in 55 years) we can say that 55 years = 5 decades and a half of a decade (and in short-hand or short-tounge if you will you say 5 1/2 decades). But in all essence and truth, half of a decade IS NOT a decade, nor is 50 years a century even if we can describe it as half of a century. I think that is tricky for some because it is an issue of idioms having meaning but not representing reality yet this is very simple. You may go your whole life calling 5 years 'half a decade' but when the question is posed how many decades is 5 years, the answer is none, because 5 yeras is not a decade even if it is half of one. In that same truth 1/6 of a month is not a month. So If there are 12 months and 5 days in a year and someone asks you how many months are in a year you simply say 12, period. 12 1/6 months is an expression to describe 365 days but 1/6 of a month has never been and never will be a month. That is the truth of the matter. If that is too complicated for some or even if no one wants to admit it, it is the truth. It has nothing to do with whether God knows fractions or not. In the case of fraction use in the Quran I have seen that it used in the case of goods. So whereas 1/6 of an apple is still and will stays an apple (that goes for inheritance as well), 1/6 of a month is never and will never be a month.
QuotePeace,
This post is not directed to or a response to anyone in particular.
First I wanna say to each his own. I see that we are all gonna have to make our decisions personally, because there will be no consensus here. Secondly in defense of people who use the term ''new moon" they mean waxing crescent. In reality a new moon is not visible and is after the waning crescent disapears and before the waxing crescent appears again. But I think those who use new moon mean to say waxing crescent and that should be understood and corrected with comprehension when someone uses the wrong term, not manipulated, twisted and spit back as a counter argument.
Second I wanna say that a year can be counted in different ways. There is the solstice year (whch I have a hunch is connected more to the term sanah (being seasonal years) or just from one season until the repetition of that same season), there is a year where the same day comes back around or the beginning of the same season (that in my hunch is more connected to hawl as the revolution of a certain day or season), then there are years based on fixed calendars, hence we have Jewish, Buddhist, hindu, Chinese, Islamic etc. new years which are based on different fixed calendar systems (I think this concept of a year is more connected to the term 3aam, based on the Quran's usage of this word in a possesive way in relation to the Arabs of the Quran's time.) With that said I'm sure there have been years where 12 lunar cycles have fit within a solstice based year. All we have to do is follow any particlar Islamic month backwards until it occurs directly after the solstice, or project forward to such an event.
Third I wanted to say that 2:183 brings up the topic of fasting, 2:184 lays down exceptions to fast and that a ransom/compensation/substitute for a fast is feeding a needy person 2:185: mentions how a shahr of Ramadan is a time for fasting 2:186: clarifies our relationship with God 2:187 tells us that a fast is a daily event done during daylight hours and lets us know that whereas eating may be fine in a place of worship at the end of the fast sex is not.
With that clear I would like to repeat that every daily fast that can be compensated/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person. 58:4 lets us know using the previous passages that 2 months = 60 daily fasts i.e. 60 days.
Hence the equation is 1 needy person = 1 daily fast = 1 day. And knowing that 2 shahr = 60 needy persons = 60 daily fasts = 60 days. Knowing that, I don't think it is difficult to know that 1 shahr = 30 days.
Again I will repeat the key idea here: Every daily fast that can be compensated/subsituted/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person
If fasting is the last option then it cannot be compensated/ransomed/substituted for and previous options before fasting cannot be seen as compensations, ransoms or subsitutes for fasting because fasting in such contexts has NO compensation. Hence these occurence cannot be included in these equations because they are incompensatable and unsubstitutable fasts. Some such contexts for reference are: 4:92, 2:196, 5:89.
So with that said I think it is quite obvious that the Quran concept of shahr = 30 days. I've shown how as it concerns the dictionaries defintions 29 sunset to sunset days translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
In addition to that and in closing. The concept of ramadan in the dictionaries has nothing to do with the color red, orange or yellow. It has only to do with the senation of intense heat, be that from weather, from friction or from occular irritation. So assuming that ramadan has something to do with the color red is an assumption NOT found in the dictionaries and with no evidence pointing to any possiblity that the Quran means the color red when it uses any form of the root word ramada.
Also I don't see 9:36 as a command in any fashion. But a statement that there have been 12 shahr in how God decreed things to be since he made the heavens in the earth. This gives me the impression that even before mankind was involved in this whole figuring out and counting a shahr deal that there were always just 12 of them in a year (the yearly context is clarified in 9:37 with the use of the term an-nasee') And as it concerns 3adad and 3iddah. the meaning of these terms can overlap. Literally adad is what is counted, and 3iddah is a count. But if we assume that a day has 24 hours, both the hours counted and the count of hours is 24, and hence the meaning becomes the same. So i find arguments based on the difference between these two words about the meaning of shahr or how many shahr are in a year and whether we are to leave out the 13th full moon if we take shahr as full moon becomes too semantical and word playish. It's the difference between saying the count of months and the number of months, and frankly although there is a difference, emphasizing it to prove a point is word play. In the end the count is God's (Inna 3iddata ash-shuhoori 3ANDA ALLAHI) and not ours and I think it is fair to expect that his count would be representative of what really is.
This is how I see it. There is no need for a barrage of attacks or repeats of previous counter arguments. I just wanted those interested to read my conclusions, observations and logic of the whole issue instead of thinking I have any personal interest in attacking Ayman or truthseeker's (proponents of the Red solstice moon theory for shahru ramadaana) or those who still believe that shahr should be Quranically seen as a lunar cycle begining and ending with the waxing crescent which I disagree with as well based on the obvious issue a 12 month lunar year poses for representing accurate and stable dates.
Godbless,
Anwar
As always . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
peace everyone,
Since my points have gone unanswered, I will repost them too:
QuoteNow let us discuss "Anwar month", which by his definition (in his imaginary wonderland) consists of exactly 30 days.
If shahr already means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month) in 2:185, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant. But, I forgot that God's book is full of redundancies.
If shahr means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month), then "falyasumhu"/fast it would mean fasting for 30 days straight without any break, which would be impossible. But, I forgot that God asks us to do impossible super human feats in his book.
If shahr means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month), then the count of such Anwar months in a solar year would be 12 and 1/6. God has used words for fractions in al-quran and 1/6 in Arabic is "sudus". If shahr meant "Anwar months" then God should have said "the count of shuhoor is ithna 'ashara wa sudus". But, I forgot that God does not know how to count in fractions!
If shahr means "Anwar month" then 12 such months would be 360 days and that will leave 5 days in a solar year. If we skip those five days to start the next "Anwar month", then the last month will have 35 days, not 30, and "Anwar month's" definition will automatically be contradicted. No matter how you count it, there will be only 11 Anwar months in a solar year. The 12th month will not be an Anwar month because it will have 35 days.
If shahr means "Anwar month", then al-quran was descended in an "Anwar month" according to one verse (2:185), but descended in one night according to two other verses (44:3, 97:1). But, I forgot that God's book is full of contradictions.
If shahr means "Anwar month", then how can we witness such an Anwar month as per 2:185?
What is so special about those 30 magical days that we can witness them?
Even if those 30 days are special and different from other days in Anwar's wonderland, witnessing the shahr would require witnessing all 30 days BEFORE we start fasting. We can start fasting only AFTER we have witnessed the 30 days, to make sure we have witnessed the Anwar month. We cannot fast during those 30 magical days, because then we have not witnessed the Anwar month yet; but then how long do we fast?
We are asked to witness the shahr first and then fast it in 2:185. In order to witness an Anwar month, we will have to witness all the 30 magical days BEFORE we start fasting. How can we start fasting in the magical Anwar month before witnessing it completely first?
Peace everyone,
I wasn?t going to reply to hardhead anymore although this may benefit others.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 30, 2008, 02:17:04 AM
If this is not consistent then God is not consistent when He asks menstruating women to wait for 3 menstruations.
IF divorce is day before a menstruation wait 54 days = 3 menstruations
IF divorce is day after a menstruation wait 27 + 54 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a menstruation wait 17 + 54 days
What menstruations are you talking about?
Stop banging your head and pay attention!
http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/irregular_menses/irregular_menses.html
65:4 And those who became infertile/despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became suspicious, so their term (is) three months,
and those who did not menstruate...1. Women who DO NOT menstruate!
2. They can be pregnant at 54 days and NOT know it!
3. If they marry, the father will NOT be the new husband
You are disobeying God!
Verse says for them to wait 3 months to ensure they are NOT pregnant when the baby is this large...
http://www.babycenter.com/slideshow-baby-size
(http://assets.babycenter.com/ims/2007/10oct/20071004/12-lime.jpg?width=424&height=302&pad=true)
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 30, 2008, 02:17:04 AM
It is very logical. Fasting for 2 consecutive full-moons means you start your daily fast when you see a full-moon and keep fasting every day from daytime to night until you see the second full-moon and then stop.
That is only 29 days ? verse says to fast 2 months and you are again disobeying God.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 30, 2008, 02:17:04 AM
What is illogical is fasting for 2 consecutive months. How can someone fast non-stop for 2 months without a break? I forgot again; God asks us to perform impossible super human feats in His book.
Super human feats? Are you right in the head?
You seem to scribble the first thoughts which pop in your head without thinking.
A billion people including elderly and children fast a month each year.
Once a person gets into the mode they can easily fast another month.
It's not like you can't eat/drink after sunset; every day is new day and a fresh start.
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 30, 2008, 04:34:30 PMI wasn?t going to reply to hardhead anymore although this may benefit others.
What menstruations are you talking about?
Stop banging your head and pay attention!
http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/irregular_menses/irregular_menses.html
65:4 And those who became infertile/despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became suspicious, so their term (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate...
1. Women who DO NOT menstruate!
2. They can be pregnant at 54 days and NOT know it!
3. If they marry, the father will NOT be the new husband
You are disobeying God!
They can also be pregnant at 90 days and not know it. You are still unable to read and quote the whole verse. The waiting for three full-moons is ONLY for those who despaired from menstruations and only if you (not they) became suspicious. So the waiting is actually ZERO if you are not suspicious. So she can marry 1 second after the divorce not even 54 days or three months or whatever!
As for
those who did not menstruate since the divorce (but haven't despaired from menstruation), they and those who are pregnant have to wait the gestation period.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam,
Working toward taqwah fasting for 30 days.
Tired, worn out, yet happy.
Time to reflect what we achieved and celebrate.
A special greetings to those who upheld the true fast
:bravo: :group: :eat:
Peace,
Mr. Truthseeker11. I find your repost of that issue to be quite disrespectful. To call them 30 day months and to deal with the issue as such is fine. But to call them Anwar months and to repost the wonderland comment is utterly disrespectful. Please take that Anwar month stuff out of there. It is a personal provocation towards me and I do not appreciate it. And contradictions you have can be solved through seriously considering what you consider contradictions. I took the liberty in responding to the points below of taking out the disrespectful commentary.
As it concerns the isssues at hand I will post comments after the comments that were posted for clarification, then I think I'm gonna leave this alone for a while as I have made my position clear and only jumped back in to offer my position to those who may not have read it not to engage in derrogatory back and forths:
QuoteIf shahr already means "month of 30 days" in 2:185, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant. But, I forgot that God's book is full of redundancies.
This is not redundant God wants us to complete the month in fasting. It is an ecouragement to fast. Although God's book does repeat and clarify I don't find the book very redundant. But Classical Arabic does have seeminly redundant style but this is used for clarification of details as well.
QuoteIf shahr means "month of 30 days" , then "falyasumhu"/fast it would mean fasting for 30 days straight without any break, which would be impossible. But, I forgot that God asks us to do impossible super human feats in his book.
Again this is not true. How many times have people, including Muslims said they were fasting the month of Ramadan? But are they fasting the nights as well? No. So are they lying? Are we lying when we say sunrise and sunset? So it is an expression that doesn't specifically have to mean to fast even the nights. Quranically, the Quran first says to fast the month and then clarifies on how to fast duriing it. Does to touch a person mean to touch their whole body? Same issue. Whatever confusion that would have been caused by this statement is cleared up in 2:187.
QuoteIf shahr means "month of 30 days" , then the count of such Anwar months in a solar year would be 12 and 1/6. God has used words for fractions in al-quran and 1/6 in Arabic is "sudus". If shahr meant "Anwar months" then God should have said "the count of shuhoor is ithna 'ashara wa sudus". But, I forgot that God does not know how to count in fractions!
This question has been answered. Please refer to my previous posts. I will be glad to pm them to anyone interested or to post them again as quotes for those truly concerned.
QuoteIf shahr means " 30 day month" then 12 such months would be 360 days and that will leave 5 days in a solar year. If we skip those five days to start the next "Anwar month", then the last month will have 35 days, not 30, and "Anwar month's" definition will automatically be contradicted. No matter how you count it, there will be only 11 Anwar months in a solar year. The 12th month will not be a 30 day month because it will have 35 days
.
If a month is 30 days then it cannot be 35 days. Hence the extra five days are not apart of any month. They are 5 days leading towards the end of the year. By coincidence this happened to be the old egyptian system. These days were not considered apart of any month. There are 12 months that are counted in the year and these last 5 days are just that, 5 days that conclude the year. The argument is mute because no one is saying that there will be a perfect 12 month system not even the Quran says that a year will be 12 months exactly. But whereas you have to in my opinion unquranically ignore the natural 13th moon in counting the full moons to calculate a year these 5 days are counted as what they are, 5 extra days, a transitionary period if you will. There is no unquranic 13th month here that has to be ignored and there are naturally just 12 months in the year.
QuoteIf shahr means "30-day month", then al-quran was descended in an "30-day month" according to one verse (2:185), but descended in one night according to two other verses (44:3, 97:1). But, I forgot that God's book is full of contradictions.
The Quran talks about the book being given to the last prophet all at once, and whereas most Muslims say it was over time I believe that verse is saying that it was revealed to him all at once, so 44:3 adn 97:1 pose a problem to traditional Islamic beliefs but not to mine. 87:6 and 75:18 might be the clue to why a month is mentioned in 2:185 as when the book was revealed. Any other verses i come accross that support this I will be sure to pass along. To me it would seem that the book was revealed to him the first night and repeated to him thoughout the 29 days afterwards.
QuoteIf shahr means "30 day month", then how can we witness such an 30-day month as per 2:185?
The discussion on the meaning of shahida was fruitless to me. The word can be used to mean to vouch for, to experience, to witness, to see etc. etc. We are all witnessing September right now and we are going to witness October tomorrow. What does that mean in the context of 2:185? If you are going to be alive and able for 30 days during your summer to fast, then fast those 30 days. There is no need to try to make shahida witness in a way that we only witness a day when we complete it. That is just not good sense. You witness the day as it begins. You can vouch for it as well if you know of it beforehand, and you can witness to its passing and your having lived through it afterwards. But to make shahida a witnessing that is something magical, special or something that can only be done after the minute, hour or day has passed is an incorrect limitation of the word.
QuoteWhat is so special about those 30 magical days that we can witness them?
I really don't see why they are magical? But if we are around for them then nash-hiduhum. We witness them. Not a big deal. In reality if we know about september of 2009 and when it will fall we nash-hiduhu (witness/vouch for it) also.
QuoteEven if those 30 days are special and different from other days, witnessing the shahr would require witnessing all 30 days BEFORE we start fasting. We can start fasting only AFTER we have witnessed the 30 days, to make sure we have witnessed the 30-day month. We cannot fast during those 30 days, because then we have not witnessed the 30-day month yet; but then how long do we fast?
I find this argument somewhat silly knowing what shahida means. I don't really feel like this comment was made in order to recieve the obvious answer.
As always . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on September 30, 2008, 06:43:46 PMI really don't see why they are magical? But if we are around for them then nash-hiduhum. We witness them. Not a big deal. In reality if we know about september of 2009 and when it will fall we nash-hiduhu (witness/vouch for it) also.
Anwar, as I said and you admitted, you are following the Ancient Egyptian calendar, which is fine but then you have to acknoweldge its obvious flaws. Also, it is really no different than taking the five days and add them randomly to some of your 30 day months to make some of them 31 like the Gregorian calendar. You would end up basically with something that resembles very much the present Gregorian calendar and that has very little to do with the great reading. This is why you are comparing it to the Gregorian Calendar and saying witnessing September 2009. What you ignore is that September 2009 is completely arbitrary. It depends on when the new year was made to start, the order of the months, and on how the "5 missing" days were distributed. Had the Romans decided to name January as September and vice versa then you would now be talking about January 2009. Also, had the Julian calendar still been in use then you would be more than 10 days over.
Your problem is that your entire calendar is based on an over and over again discredited idea of how fasting and feeding the poor relate. But even if it was not completely discredited as you imagine, then still it is only ONE factor and you completely ignore all the other factors. I think that what Truthseeker means to say is how do you witness those 30 days since they are completely arbitrary and disconnected from the moon cycle. From what point do you start counting those 30 days and which 5 days out of the year are going to be redundant and you are going to ignore them and do they have to be consecutive and why. These are some of the major problems with your calendar that you have never answered. They are also the same exact problems that make the Gregorian calendar months arbitrary. Also, you ignore that you would need a leap year exactly like the Gregorian calendar but in your case with 6 redundant days instead of 5 every four years. So what you are presenting is basically a poor rehash of the Gregorian calendar (it too was originally adapted from the Egyptian calendar).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
This is a response to Ayman's post.
QuoteAnwar, as I said and you admitted, you are following the Ancient Egyptian calendar, which is fine but then you have to acknoweldge its obvious
I did not admit I was following the egyptian calender. Go back to my post and read carefully. I said
QuoteBy coincidence this happened to be the old egyptian system.
So if you are insinuating that my main motive here is to adopt the Egyptian calendar, as I think you are, this is incorrect. As i stated, this is COINCIDENCE.
QuoteAlso, it is really no different than taking the five days and add them randomly to some of your 30 day months to make some of them 31 like the Gregorian calendar.
Again, that would be the case if I were trying to invent a calendar system. But I am not trying to invent anything. I am just following the Quranic clues. I have made i clear that the Quran promotes a 30 day shahr. So adding days to these thirty days and calling it a shahr would be unquranic and contradictory to the Quran. These 5 days at the end of teh 12th shahr are not included in any shahr and are naturally there. I am not adding or subtracting anything, they are just there, and that is not a problem. This has nothing to do with a Gregorian calendar but everything to do iwth a year. Solar years can be based on a full revolution of either of the two solstices (winter to winter or summer to summer) or the equinoxes (fall to fall or spring to spring). Or it can be the sum of those day 365.25 starting from any point in the year. Don't try to tack Gregorian onto me and make it seem like I'm just copying. That is a negtive and an incorrect assumption.
QuoteYou would end up basically with something that resembles very much the present Gregorian calendar and that has very little to do with the great reading. This is why you are comparing it to the Gregorian Calendar and saying witnessing September 2009.
Alright hold the wild assumptions about my motives back. They seem to only smear me in the eyes of others. My conclusions have nothing to do with the Gregorian calendar, please get that out of the conversation. The fact that I mentioned September was only to say that whatever calendar is being used once you have some predictability you can witness future months, days, events, etc. Please do not try to associate me and my motives somehow with imitating the Gregorian calendear.
QuoteWhat you ignore is that September 2009 is completely arbitrary. It depends on when the new year was made to start, the order of the months, and on how the "5 missing" days were distributed.
I have not ignored this, nor do I fail to understand that. You read way too deeply into what I meant by September. Again, it was only to prove that once a calendar is predictable you can be a witness to future months, events, days etc. Hence there is no need to let a month, day or event pass in order to be a witness to it. As for the 5 days being distributed throughout the months in the Gregorian version of the Solar calender I disagree with this from a Quranic standpoint, obviously because a month is 30 days as the Quran implies it. So what they did was a manipulation to fit their own purposes. So lahum deenuhum, good on them, but it is not Quranic and it was not necessary.
QuoteHad the Romans decided to name January as September and vice versa then you would now be talking about January 2009. Also, had the Julian calendar still been in use then you would be more than 10 days over.
Again, for the reasons I mentioned the month September, any month could fit. I could used january, march, april, neesaan, huzairaan, or even months from the Jewish calendar. None of that matters. I have explained above twice already why I mentioned september. I hope you understand now and won't use it against me.
QuoteYour problem is that your entire calendar is based on an over and over again discredited idea of how fasting and feeding the poor relate. But even if it was not completely discredited as you imagine, then still it is only ONE factor and you completely ignore all the other factors.
I don't want to go in a back and forth where I say it wasn't discredited and you say it was and you say I'm in denial and then I say you're in denial. That's futile. I have ignored no factors, but you will put that into doubt. I only ask that those who are sincere read my posts and decide for themselves. I would also ask you to study what i've said more carefully. But you don't have to respond to that petition. It is your personal decision.
QuoteI think that what Truthseeker means to say is how do you witness those 30 days since they are completely arbitrary and disconnected from the moon cycle.
There is no need to mention a moon cycle here. Just like the word in English used to mean moon cycle and now means number of days that approximate a lunar cycle, using the dictionaries, the Quran and logic it is easy to see that shahr can also mean 29 or 30 days, and that the Quran promotes the shahr of 30 days in its context.
QuoteFrom what point do you start counting those 30 days and which 5 days out of the year are going to be redundant and you are going to ignore them and do they have to be consecutive and why.
Now you see I have never said we should ignore these days. Never. I don't believe in saying 'oh no, don't count that.' as with the 13th full moon issue. I am saying that whereas we must observe them and acknowledge them they do not constitute a month. That is not ignorng them. That is stating a fact. 1/6 of a month is just not a month, just like a half a century is not a century. So even with those 5 extra days if we ask the question how many months are there, we still only have 12 months in a year despite those last 5 days. I'm saying include them, count them in. Naturally and obviously they are apart of the year but recognize that 5 days is not a month and therefore 5 extra days does not add or take away form the 12 month count in the year.
QuoteThese are some of the major problems with your calendar that you have never answered. They are also the same exact problems that make the Gregorian calendar months arbitrary. Also, you ignore that you would need a leap year exactly like the Gregorian calendar but in your case with 6 redundant days instead of 5 every four years. So what you are presenting is basically a poor rehash of the Gregorian calendar (it too was originally adapted from the Egyptian calendar).
I have indeed answered all your questions. Furthermore there is no need for a calculated addition of a leap year because if it takes an extra day to reach the solstice or equinox then that day will naturally add itself as we wait for the solstice or the equinox. After all this is a purely solar calendar. I used 365 as a general count for a year as is generally done. Do not take that literally. If from solstice to solstice it takes 366 days then there will be 6 days left over. There is no problem, the count of the months still remains 12 and the solstices and the equinoxes are the guide.
I looked on wiki and here is the reason the gregorian is like it is:
QuoteThe Gregorian calendar was designed to keep the vernal equinox on or close to March 21, so that the date of Easter (celebrated on the Sunday after the 14th day of the Moon (i.e. a full moon) that falls on or after March 21) remains correct with respect to the vernal equinox.[3
I can assure you that the Quran and the true recording of time are my only concerns here, not Easter.
Here are the diffrent natural solar years taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year)
vernal equinox 365.242 374 04 + 0.000 000 103 38?a days
northern solstice 365.241 626 03 + 0.000 000 006 50?a days
autumn equinox 365.242 017 67 − 0.000 000 231 50?a days
southern solstice 365.242 740 49 − 0.000 000 124 46?a days
If one of these years drifts a day over a period of hundreds or thousands of years, then we just wait an extra 6 days (instead of a more common 5) until the completion of one of the above events and problem solved, we still just have 12 months in the year. There is no motive here other than having a correct and Quranic way of assessing the solar years. That year is 12 shahr of 30 days with 5 or possibly 6 transitional days that tag the end of the 12th month and that naturally do not make up a month.
As always . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
"Blessed is the night when we revealed Quran".
Was it sent down in a month, or all at once placed in mohammad'(pbuh) heart? I think the verse clearly tells us that it came down in a night, and which was it ? Most probably The night of Full Red moon.
Isn't it plain and simple?
But we keep searching Kadar, during the odd nights in the last ashra of an imaginary month Ramadhan.
peace
siki
Truth seeker
You need to calm down brother.
siki
If we start counting month from shahrr, as per God's instructions, whenever we witness a full moon we would say
Oh" a month has gone by (every new full moon would ring the bell of a month in our brains)
Over a reasonable period of time the primary meaning (full moon) would be relegated to secondary and we would start to identify shahrr with a month.
Most likely this is how the primary meanings got corrupted.
peace siki
If God tells us "that he revealed Quran in the night of shahrr" ( Full moon) and that particular Shahrr (1 out 12) was the Ramadhan one (Red moon) , so fast for days who so ever witnesses it,,,
we will start calling that particular shahrr, as the Ramadhan one
Over a period of time, we will name that particular month as "Ramadhan" and its original meaning would be lost, And all what would come down to us would be a "month of Ramadhan". Which , when started rotating, completely lost its Marker(Red moon) and hence its original meaning bite dust.
peace
siki
Peace All,
Is FULL MOON called badr or shahr in Arabic? Can somebody explain the difference please?
Quote from: Tlepsh on October 01, 2008, 01:28:55 AM
Peace All,
Is FULL MOON called badr or shahr in Arabic? Can somebody explain the difference please?
Moon has different stages. The cresent stages , and the Badr stages, when it is like a cresent (6-8 days) wanning or waxing, it could be called Ahillat(cresent) then we have a roundish figure for about 6-8 days in total
(The badar stages) Out of these Badars,
One is Full moon known as Shahrr, which could serve as marker for month count.(GOd's choice)
A very logical choice indeed, we cant miss it , it is available for Maximum possible time , and is The brightest.
And now, go find The cresent moon , specially the one which is running after the sun and vanishes almost along the sun ???
Like every year, last night, there has been a mess up here in pakistan for locating this so called cresent moon, The Met had declared, "As the moon is on zero deggree, so there is absouletly no chance of its sighting"
The Four comitties consisting of dozens of Mulllahs sitting on top of towers with telescopes , declared officially at 8 PM that no moon sighting, fast tomorrow ,hence people went for salat ul Taraweeh, came back and slept.
At 2315 hrs we were woken up by the news that the moon has been sighted by some one , hence the Govt has declared Eid tomorrow, The Govt, probably did it under pressure from the Fact , "That how can there be a difference of two days between Saudi Eid and pakistani Eid?
I picked up my sleeping kids, threw them in the car, and left for my family home (in another town) at 1 AM, and reached at dawn.
The sleeping shopkeepers rushed to their shops and opened them for this so called "Chand Raat"(Moon night) where as this "Chand Raat" should be the Full bright moon night. Not the NO Chand Raat
What a total nonsense this is. If we don't have the ability to decipher GOd's words with logic and reason , sure we will be messed up.
peace
siki
Anti Ayman camp! I wish you peace and tranquality.
How do you witness a man made arbitrary month? Do you think God used this word (witness), "Just casually" I think you guys have stayed in the forum long enough to witness , "That His choice of words is absoutely precise and Delibrate".
The wisdom behind each usage, "sometimes we know, and some times we find" ! But is NEVER, NEVER CASUAL, and when we dont find (wisdom) "please keep striving to find" , because his words are balanced to perfection.
Evidences are just too many, "Come on friends, If you still stick with the traditonal fast, I think your logic circuit is either shut down or due for a major Overhaul.
siki
Dear Ayman
The more I dig this subject, the more proofs pop out in fovour of your thinking line . But remember , i am not with you , I am with the truth, and looking for a chance to hop over to otherside the moment I get an undisputable proof OTHERWISE.
If you recall , all these years , I never approved , nor opposed your Red moon thinking, because it deserved a fair chance for verification. On the other hand, when , like all/any of us mortals, you fell , and illogically defended your logic on differnt subjects, I pounded you.
But so for , I think , you pulled this one Right, and hence deserve pat on your back for the hard work and perseverence.
Two thumbs up for Dr Ayman :handshake:
siki
Quote from: farida on September 30, 2008, 05:27:27 PM
Salaam,
Working toward taqwah fasting for 30 days.
Tired, worn out, yet happy.
Time to reflect what we achieved and celebrate.
A special greetings to those who upheld the true fast
:bravo: :group: :eat:
;D :peace: ;D
Peace all,
Quote from: siki on October 01, 2008, 03:30:40 AM
The more I dig this subject, the more proofs pop out in fovour of your thinking line . But remember , i am not with you , I am with the truth, and looking for a chance to hop over to otherside the moment I get an undisputable proof OTHERWISE.
These are also my exact sentiments and why I am still following this thread as long as there are comments. I continue to see more and more evidence that 'shahr' is 'full moon'.
To anwar,
Quote
If shahr means "30 day month", then how can we witness such an 30-day month as per 2:185?
The discussion on the meaning of shahida was fruitless to me. The word can be used to mean to vouch for, to experience, to witness, to see etc. etc. We are all witnessing September right now and we are going to witness October tomorrow. What does that mean in the context of 2:185? If you are going to be alive and able for 30 days during your summer to fast, then fast those 30 days. There is no need to try to make shahida witness in a way that we only witness a day when we complete it. That is just not good sense. You witness the day as it begins. You can vouch for it as well if you know of it beforehand, and you can witness to its passing and your having lived through it afterwards. But to make shahida a witnessing that is something magical, special or something that can only be done after the minute, hour or day has passed is an incorrect limitation of the word."
I'm only replying because I was part of that discussion and I would like to ask,
how do you ignore that the reading CLEARLY uses the verb 'shaheda' in different ways? I gave those examples. How can that be fruitless? I know that arranging similar verses is KEY to trying to properly understand how the god is using certain terminology and not that I just put what I want to be there, that would not be a just investigation of the truth would it? To me, this is one of the big supports for 'full moon' and if this is considered a non-issue by those who say month and they don't care how the reading uses this verb, I simply cannot accept that it doesn't matter and it shows me the weakness of this stance.
Another point that came to mind, it may have been mentioned before,
is how do we reconcile in 2:184 the god begins with "ayyaam ma'duudaat" and the interpretation of 'month? There was a point about just the form of the word ma'duudaat provides a clue since this form is used for representing a count from 3 - 10. Numbers over 10 until 20 and from 20 to 99 and so on use different forms when using them in expressions. The duals have their own form. I love the preciseness of arabic. Check this out for yourself in the great reading.
Can we say that the arabic here doesn't matter, that the arabic grammarians know arabic better than the Creator? I'd like honest answers since I am keeping the door open.
Umm Tariq
quote by farida
Salaam,
Working toward taqwah fasting for 30 days.
Tired, worn out, yet happy.
Time to reflect what we achieved and celebrate.
A special greetings to those who upheld the true fast
Quote from: afridi220 on October 01, 2008, 07:55:00 AM
;D :peace: ;D
:! Ever wonder, why should God render us useless for 1/12th of our lifetime?
If you have ever been in any islamic country, specially in an arabian state during the so called month of Ramadhan, you would know it.
Cycling for 10 days in extreme :sun: weather during a longest possible day , should be good enough.
:hmm Just my thoughts.
siki
;D
Quote from: siki on October 01, 2008, 08:20:04 AM
quote by farida
Salaam,
Working toward taqwah fasting for 30 days.
Tired, worn out, yet happy.
Time to reflect what we achieved and celebrate.
A special greetings to those who upheld the true fast
:! Ever wonder, why should God render us useless for 1/12th of our lifetime?
If you have ever been in any islamic country, specially in an arabian state during the so called month of Ramadhan, you would know it.
Cycling for 10 days in extreme :sun: weather during a longest possible day , should be good enough.
:hmm Just my thoughts.
siki
Month of Ramadan is a Festive season here the nights are full of enjoyment try if you don?t trust me
:eat:
Quote from: afridi220 on October 01, 2008, 08:33:44 AM
Month of Ramadan is a Festive season here the nights are full of enjoyment try if you don?t trust me
:eat:
Ya right, eat and drink :eat: the whole night, literally as per his commandment in 2-185 and then sleep it off during the day.
:pr Thanks to Allah for his gift of black gold, ::) Me worry , Never, enjoy till the stocks last, or captured by Americans, in that case I/we shall ride back to deserts, long live our dear old friends camels.
siki
Umm Tariq,
QuoteI'm only replying because I was part of that discussion and I would like to ask, how do you ignore that the reading CLEARLY uses the verb 'shaheda' in different ways? I gave those examples. How can that be fruitless? I know that arranging similar verses is KEY to trying to properly understand how the god is using certain terminology and not that I just put what I want to be there, that would not be a just investigation of the truth would it? To me, this is one of the big supports for 'full moon' and if this is considered a non-issue by those who say month and they don't care how the reading uses this verb, I simply cannot accept that it doesn't matter and it shows me the weakness of this stance.
I take this stance because I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around. The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse. I only need remind of the Salat as connection or method theories to prove my point. The Quran is not a dictionary.
QuoteAnother point that came to mind, it may have been mentioned before, is how do we reconcile in 2:184 the god begins with "ayyaam ma'duudaat" and the interpretation of 'month? There was a point about just the form of the word ma'duudaat provides a clue since this form is used for representing a count from 3 - 10. Numbers over 10 until 20 and from 20 to 99 and so on use different forms when using them in expressions. The duals have their own form. I love the preciseness of arabic. Check this out for yourself in the great reading. Can we say that the arabic here doesn't matter, that the arabic grammarians know arabic better than the Creator? I'd like honest answers since I am keeping the door open.
I dealt with the specifics of ma3dood/ma3doodah and the grammar of ma3doodaat. That definition of 3-10 was ONE possiblity of the meaning of the word and was not the deciding definition of the word. I showed in the very Arabic quoted here, by grace of Samia, from lisan al-3arab of how in the same parenthesis ma3doodaat had the general meanings of counted and numbered as well as the specific meaning of few. And I showed other examples of Classical Arabic grammar via the Quran where the feminine plural is used for plural inanimate objects, and specifically days. There is no preference for one form of ma3dood or another. These forms are grammatically stable and equal to the form numbered in English. In some cases it means few and in others it just means limited. I could tell someone that their days are numbered and be saying that they will die soon or I can be saying that they will die eventually as all our numbers are limited. That is great material for a a cryptogram or a cipher but it is only great material because it is true. And this is the same case with ma3dood. We see this in everyday usage of the word 'numbered' and we need to expect that when we read the Quran's words.
Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross. Grammarians made it a point to record how Classical Arabic words were used and how its grammar was used. So it is never a Quran vs. Grammarian scenario, that sort of scenario is completely nonsensical. The fact is that the Quran borrowed words and their meanings from Classical Arabic in order to get its points accross in the book, and the grammarians dedicated themselves to how the Arabs who most represented and who were most connected to pre-Quranic Arabia (the linguistic birth ground of the Quran), and how they used their words and grammar.
So I've never denied that ma3doodaat can mean few (although the meaning of 3-10 was more connected to the possibly innovated Islamic concept of pilgrimage or at very least the pre-islamic pagan origin of the pilgrimage which would give it more validity as a definition). I have also never denied that shahr can mean full moon after I saw it in the Classical Arabic dictionaries with my own eyes. But it can also refer to crescent moons, potentially any moon phase (As it can be synonymous with qamar and hilaal. And hilaal can mean any moon phase as well), or the period from waxing crescent to new waxing crescent, or 29 sunset to sunset days which equal 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
The question here is what does the Quran mean when it refers to shahr. I think it is clear from all I have presented in my previous posts that the Quran prefers the meaning of 30 sunrise to sunrise days in its context. And I think it is confirmed in the fact that using this conclusion we will always only have and be able to count only 12 shahr in the year, not a shahr more or less. And so I don't have to explain later, the naturally occurring extra 5 or 6 days after the 12th shahr are never to be ignored but the fact is that they will never constitute a shahr or an extension of any shahr because the Quranically preferred shahr is 30 (sunrise to sunrise) days. No more, no less.
And as always . . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
I hope you understand my points. Whether you agree with them or not is your decision.
Quote from: progod on October 01, 2008, 04:09:43 PM
The Quran is not a dictionary.
Anwar
Brother Anwar, salam
Trust me when i say,
"Quran, as a dictionary, has never let me down", and was always the only instrument which came to my rescue when I got stuck.
peace :peace:
siki
Peace Nun,
Quote from: NunWhat menstruations are you talking about?
I was referring to 2:228 in which "menstruations" is used for menstruating women in the same way as "shahr" is used i 65:4 for menopausal women whose menopause is in doubt. The usage of "menstruation" in 2:228 implies it is a marker, hence the similar usage of "shahr" in the same context of determining interim after divorce in 65:4 implies that it is used as a marker also and the meaning of "full-moon" is more consistent with that kind of usage because both usages result in similar number of days.
The meaning of "month" in 65:4 would result in inconsistency because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days. Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will have to wait 90 days?
Umm Tariq and Ayman have already addressed this issue before, and this is one of the points that proves that "shahr" most likely means "full-moon" in al-quran.
Peace Siki,
I will not trust you when you say this. I honestly believe that I know better, and I only say believe instead of know because since we all see things with our own eyes, if you can't see what I'm seeing then that is what you know as well. And there's no point in getting into a you're right and I'm wrong back and forth. I'd be glad to give you the main reasons why this method of taking the Quran as a dictionary is a mistake and a wrongful imposition onto the book but I'm sure I've already communicated those reason to you in most part in my previous posts. So in respect of your right to choose your own path but also to show serious concern for your choice I'll leave it at a hmmmmm :hmm I'd be open to any private conversation you'd like to have on the issue. And in the meanwhile I guess I'll just pray for what I believe to be your enlightenment on this issue :pr
As always . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Mr. progod,
Quote from: progod on September 30, 2008, 06:43:46 PM
Mr. Truthseeker11.
Preconceived notions; male chauvinism perhaps?
QuoteI find your repost of that issue to be quite disrespectful. To call them 30 day months and to deal with the issue as such is fine. But to call them Anwar months and to repost the wonderland comment is utterly disrespectful. Please take that Anwar month stuff out of there. It is a personal provocation towards me and I do not appreciate it.
I will take back the wonderland comment and apologize for that. As far as Anwar months is concerned, you should take pride in that. How is it disrespectful? Shahr has
never meant "month that always has 30 days" in Classical Arabic. This idea is a new innovation by you and because you are the originator, it makes sense to call it "Anwar month". Einstein never got offended when people referred to his theory as "Einstein's theory" did he? What is wrong to refer to an idea by the name of the innovator? It makes it easier to refer to such an idea and I think you should be proud of that. However, I will refrain from using this term in our discussions.
QuoteAnd contradictions you have can be solved through seriously considering what you consider contradictions. I took the liberty in responding to the points below of taking out the disrespectful commentary.
Not replying to someone's constructive criticism when asked repeatedly to do so is also disrespectful, so thank you for finally responding.
QuoteThis is not redundant God wants us to complete the month in fasting. It is an ecouragement to fast. Although God's book does repeat and clarify I don't find the book very redundant. But Classical Arabic does have seeminly redundant style but this is used for clarification of details as well.
Some redundancies are ridiculous. It is a ridiculous redundancy to say "complete the count" after saying "whoever among you witnesses the month of 30 days then fast it" (meaning fast for 30 days). The encouragement to fast is at the end of verse 2:184: "And if you fast it is better for you if you knew". There is no clarification needed to complete the count if it is already stated to fast for 30 days. That is why "shahr" cannot mean "month of 30 days" in 2:185 but can only mean "full-moon" because then there is no ridiculous redundancy.
QuoteAgain this is not true. How many times have people, including Muslims said they were fasting the month of Ramadan? But are they fasting the nights as well? No. So are they lying? Are we lying when we say sunrise and sunset? So it is an expression that doesn't specifically have to mean to fast even the nights. Quranically, the Quran first says to fast the month and then clarifies on how to fast duriing it. Does to touch a person mean to touch their whole body? Same issue. Whatever confusion that would have been caused by this statement is cleared up in 2:187.
You have given a wrong analogy. "Person" and "whole body" are different terms. When you say "fast for month of 30 days" it means fast non-stop for 30 days. "Fast it" does not mean "fast in it". If it had said "falyasum fihi", only then you had a point.
The other way it can make sense is if "shahr" is being used as a marker. For example I can say:
"Independence day is July 4th, so
celebrate it"
and then I can clarify to celebrate it by participating in a festival lasting 10 nights.
"Shahr" in 2:185 is used in a similar fashion. It is used as an event or a marker which signals start of fasting and then it is clarified to fast for a few days. The only way we can fast
it (the magical month of 30 days), in that sense, would be to start our fasting AFTER the 30 days are over. We will still fast for few days in the manner specified (dawn to sunset), but not for 30 days.
QuoteThis question has been answered. Please refer to my previous posts. I will be glad to pm them to anyone interested or to post them again as quotes for those truly concerned.
No, this has not been answered. We can count a fraction of an object too in terms of that object. I know that 1/6 month is not a month but we can
COUNT fractions of a unit in term of that unit. For example a hypothetical week can have 4 and a half days, so
the count of days in that week will be 4 and 1/2 days. Similarly, if a month is always 30 days then the
COUNT of months will be 12 and 1/6 months in a solar year and not 12.
QuoteIf a month is 30 days then it cannot be 35 days. Hence the extra five days are not apart of any month. They are 5 days leading towards the end of the year. By coincidence this happened to be the old egyptian system. These days were not considered apart of any month. There are 12 months that are counted in the year and these last 5 days are just that, 5 days that conclude the year. The argument is mute because no one is saying that there will be a perfect 12 month system not even the Quran says that a year will be 12 months exactly. But whereas you have to in my opinion unquranically ignore the natural 13th moon in counting the full moons to calculate a year these 5 days are counted as what they are, 5 extra days, a transitionary period if you will. There is no unquranic 13th month here that has to be ignored and there are naturally just 12 months in the year.
We are asked to count 12 full-moons. It does not make a 13th full-moon unquranic. We just don't count it. The problem is that the extra full-moon cannot be a part of the previous full moon, but the extra 5 days can easily be a part of the previous month. It is you who is arbitrarily saying they cannot be a part of it. Thus there will be 11 months of 30 days in a year and the 12th month will have 35 or 36 days.
QuoteThe Quran talks about the book being given to the last prophet all at once, and whereas most Muslims say it was over time I believe that verse is saying that it was revealed to him all at once, so 44:3 adn 97:1 pose a problem to traditional Islamic beliefs but not to mine. 87:6 and 75:18 might be the clue to why a month is mentioned in 2:185 as when the book was revealed. Any other verses i come accross that support this I will be sure to pass along. To me it would seem that the book was revealed to him the first night and repeated to him thoughout the 29 days afterwards.
87:6 and 75:18 do not mention DESCENT. 2:185 does not talk about repetition or compilation, it talks about DESCENT. 44:3 and 97:1 confirm that the DESCENT was in one night, so "shahr" in 2:185 has to mean "full-moon" and not "month of 30 days"; otherwise you are creating a HUGE contradiction in al-quran. Therefore, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
QuoteThe discussion on the meaning of shahida was fruitless to me. The word can be used to mean to vouch for, to experience, to witness, to see etc. etc. We are all witnessing September right now and we are going to witness October tomorrow. What does that mean in the context of 2:185? If you are going to be alive and able for 30 days during your summer to fast, then fast those 30 days. There is no need to try to make shahida witness in a way that we only witness a day when we complete it. That is just not good sense. You witness the day as it begins. You can vouch for it as well if you know of it beforehand, and you can witness to its passing and your having lived through it afterwards. But to make shahida a witnessing that is something magical, special or something that can only be done after the minute, hour or day has passed is an incorrect limitation of the word.
I really don't see why they are magical? But if we are around for them then nash-hiduhum. We witness them. Not a big deal. In reality if we know about september of 2009 and when it will fall we nash-hiduhu (witness/vouch for it) also.
I find this argument somewhat silly knowing what shahida means. I don't really feel like this comment was made in order to recieve the obvious answer.
POINT # 1
As Ayman has pointed out already, your definition of "shahr" as a "month of 30 days" is completely arbitrary without any quranic backing. How can we witness an arbitrary man made time period of 30 days? This man made month of 30 days will fall on different days depending on when the month is arbitrarily started. You still haven't answered the question that Ayman asked: When exactly will you start your arbitrary month of 30 days in the summer season? From what point will you start counting your 30 days? Please give quranic evidence for the exact time when you are going to start your arbitrary month.
POINT # 2
When you witness a day, yes you can witness it as soon as day starts becuse the end of the day is continuous with the start i.e. it is one unit. Month of 30 days, however, is different and made of 30 different units. You cannot witness a month of 30 days just on seeing the first day. ALL 30 DAYS HAVE TO BE WITNESSED IN ORDER TO WITNESS THE ARBITRARY MONTH OF 30 DAYS. The only way to fulfil 2:185 will be to witness all the 30 days first and then start fasting, but then how long do we fast? If you start fasting during that 30 day month, then you will be violating the command to witness it first. Hence it is impossible witness the 30 day month before fasting AND fast during it. Therefore, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
No matter how many times you repeat your argument that fasting for one day is equivalent to feeding one person, it is not supported by al-quran. It does not matter what you believe. When we look at quranic evidence, according to 5:89 fasting for 3 days is equivalent to feeding 10 people so the ratio is 1:3.33. Hence, there is no fixed formula in al-quran for ratio of fasting to feeding people.
In 58:3-4, fasting and feeding people are both compensation for estranging one's wife, and are therefore EQUIVALENT. Similarly in 5:89, both fasting and feeding people are compensation for breaking oaths and are therefore EQUIVALENT. When things are equivalent, the order of mentioning them does not make any difference. No where in al-quran, other than 2:184, is feeding people mentioned as a DIRECT COMPENSATION for fasting, so the formulas of 58:3-4 and 5:89 are not applicable to that situation at all, and thus cannot be used to derive an arbitrary man-made definition of a month.
Your definition of "shahr" also creates a major inconsistency in the interim after divorce. In 2:228 "menstruations" is used for menstruating women in the same way as "shahr" is used in 65:4 for menopausal women whose menopause is in doubt. The usage of "menstruation" in 2:228 implies it is a marker, hence the similar usage of "shahr" in the same context of determining interim after divorce in 65:4 implies that it is used as a marker also and the meaning of "full-moon" is more consistent with that kind of usage because both usages result in similar number of days.
The meaning of "month of 30 days" in 65:4 would result in inconsistency because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days. Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will have to wait 90 days?
QuoteI do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around. The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse.
On one hand you say the above, and then on the other hand you use al-quran to define "shahr" based on your faulty and defective deduction from 58:3-4 while ignoring 5:89. Is that not a hypocritical attitude to use al-quran to define a word (albeit in a faulty manner) and then ask others not to do it? NO CLASSICAL ARABIC DICTIONARY DEFINES SHAHR AS "A MONTH ALWAYS CONTAINING 30 DAYS". That is purely your novel innovation based solely on using al-quran in a faulty manner.
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 02, 2008, 02:50:24 PMNo, this has not been answered. We can count a fraction of an object too in terms of that object. I know that 1/6 month is not a month but we can COUNT fractions of a unit in term of that unit. For example a hypothetical week can have 4 and a half days, so the count of days in that week will be 4 and 1/2 days. Similarly, if a month is always 30 days then the COUNT of months will be 12 and 1/6 months in a solar year and not 12.
Exactly, we all routinely use expressions such as "half a month" so certainly fractional units in a continuous measure such as "month" are possible and are to be counted. The only way to count exactly 12 is if they were not continuous but binary 0 or 1 events. There is no "1/6 of an event". In other words, either you have the full-moon event (1) or you don't (0). Only then there is no fraction.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 02, 2008, 02:50:24 PMAs Ayman has pointed out already, your definition of "shahr" as a "month of 30 days" is completely arbitrary without any quranic backing. How can we witness an arbitrary man made time period of 30 days? This man made month of 30 days will fall on different days depending on when the month is arbitrarily started. You still haven't answered the question that Ayman asked: When exactly will you start your arbitrary month of 30 days in the summer season? From what point will you start counting your 30 days? Please give quranic evidence for the exact time when you are going to start your arbitrary month.
Exactly, Anwar couldn't answer my question, because he can't.
Anwar, for the last time please tell us when your arbitrary 30 day scorching month starts and when it ends. Tell us also when your arbitrary four restricted 30 day months start and end. Remember, they can't be arbitrary, otherwise the restriction on hunting would be violated.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 02, 2008, 02:50:24 PMNO CLASSICAL ARABIC DICTIONARY DEFINES SHAHR AS "A MONTH ALWAYS CONTAINING 30 DAYS". That is purely your novel innovation based solely on using al-quran in a faulty manner.
Exactly, Anwar is lecturing Siki "I don't trust you when you say this" but then he turns around and trusts himself not just for saying it but for actually building his entire theory around it.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Good double team AND assist! I envisoned Truthseeker11 going up with the ball and passing the assist to Ayman and BOOOM! It was a brick! Ah well, nice try. That was like an NBA Pippin/Jordan assist (I'm showing my age, sorry). I guess I should congratulate :confused:. But to come back to serious land for a bit, Mrs. (or is it Ms.?) truthseeker11, sorry about the assumption that you were a male. All i can really say is oops, my bad. Everyone is entitled to a simple mistake like that, but I do apologize. And why the male chauvinism comment? That wasn't necessary. I admit to a certain degree of chauvinism but I wouldn't try to make it too deep or try to push the point that I'm some sort of misogynist. You didn't but I got the vibe . .(for all that means, my vibes don't seem to be too accurate after getting your gender wrong).
Despite that I'll respond when I get the chance but I'll do my best not to write a book and just respond to the main points of both yours and Ayman's comments. Otherwise I'll be on the computer all day trying to basically reiterate and reword some of the things I've already said but which have not been understood. I'm pretty convinced now that if I haven't been understood by now I never will be. But I guess I feel the need to respond in order to pull my points out of the mud that has just been thrown on them. In any case I'll take my time on the response because seeing how this conversation has gone it has just become a very low number on my priority list. Take that as you will but I'd like to just clarify my points, I won't get personal like you guys want me to by continually calling me out by name (something I asked for restraint on and which I have done my best to avoid), and then I'll try (and I say that with an emphasis on the y) to withdraw from this very, very long-winded topic.
Again and as always I'll give that joyful farwell . . . (I'm trying to keep things upbeat)
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Salaam Anwar & everyone,
In the interest of everyone, can you just please answer the inquiries put forward by thruthseeker11 pointblank. Let the truth stands on its own merits.
Is there a way where we can download the thread on this topic in notepad/word form? Is there such a way? Any help is much appreciated.
O0 RAMON O0
*when i was barely 9 years old, i entered a church & then suddenly a healer-supposed-to-be-with-the-spirit-of-the-infant-jesus exclaimed "may kalabang pumasok (an enemy just entered)"... i never realized until these period in my life that I could have been viewed as an anti-Christ...but then Jesus is not God & there is no second coming except the Day of Resurrection of all. Does that make me an anti-Christ? Then, the fake healer is right all along. Sorry, this should be in the intro yourself thread...but couldn't resist validating the afro icon...wait till I get blind...is that on the left or right eye....? :jedi:
May God be with you all...SALAMUN ALAYKUM...
Peace Ramon,
Quote from: the seeker on October 02, 2008, 11:31:42 PMIs there a way where we can download the thread on this topic in notepad/word form? Is there such a way? Any help is much appreciated.
A possible simple way that you can do right from you browser is to click
File > Save As... and then in the dialog box go to the "
Save as type" pull down menu and select "
Text File (*.txt)". You can then open the text file in Notepad.
The problem is that you would have to repeat this for each page and there are now 42 pages as per my last count. A workaround this is to instead use the above procedure when you are posting a reply because when you post a reply all or most of the thread history appears in a single web page but it will be in reverse chronological order.
Either way you would need to do some cleanup in Notepad to end up with a nicely readable text by getting rid the menu labels and other generic page labels and because the images are going to appear as funny characters.
I am sure there are utilities or plugins out there that would allow you to do more but this is a simple thing that you can do right from your browser if all you need is a text file.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks! No sweat...I will do it so I can save the discussion on my mobile. It takes about 4 hours of travel time from home to work & vice-versa. Need to maximize time...death comes like a thief in the night :jedi:
Peace everyone! :)
ramon
Peace,
The only question I have not explained fully in Ayman's and Truthseeker11's posts is the origin of a 30 day month and why it is Quranic.
I have already explained how the Quran likens a shahr to 30 days and in what contexts so there is no point in repeating that. And as far as the Quran being revealed in one night and hence shahr must being full moon . . . just because the Quran was revealed all at once in one night does not mean that it wasn't repeatedly revealed which is what the Quran implies. I believe that that whole period of repeated revelation so the prophet wouldn't forget lasted 29 days after the first revelation.
Now I've explained where I got 30 days from. No it is not an Anwar month as this is not a fanciful innovation by Anwar. So I take offense to that and it is obvious why, there's no back-peddling that eptithet. But to get to the point, in addition the Quran's implication that a month is 30 days I would have been forced to leave that as just a hunch, without outside linguistic evidence, because I don't and never will use the Quran as a dictionary (that is unless it specifically says X means (or is supposed to mean) Y. Otherwise context definitions in my opinion or very wrong.) My second hunch were two hadeeths, one that referred to fasting in Ramadan when you don't see the ending waxing crescent of the new month and another I read that spoke of a month of 30 days. But I am not willing to put the contents of these hadeeths as proof of my conclusion among people who will call the hadeeth every perjorative in the book (when we just don't trust their historical and religious (including interpretations of religious topics) authenticity not their linguistic authenticity). Obviously I don't agree with everyone's specific negative opinions about the hadeeth. But that is not the point. SO whereas I think the hadeeth are valid as a linguistic source I understand that many here would not accept them and I'd be wrongly branded as a hadeeth follower and conversation would come to a hault. If anyone is going to use these hadeeths against me don't waste your finger-power because I'm not using them in my argument. (I would however like to point to one of Layth's early strokes of genius when he pointed out a hadeeth's usage of asba'a to get at the meaning of saabi'oona as 'religous deviant' (deviant not necessarily in a negative sense but in the sense of different from the majority or previous religions mentioned in a certain context), which is equivalent to the other box we might fill out on a form.)
So when I saw in the dictionary how there was a definition of 29 days I definitely felt that my argument had been close but still wrong. Then I was blessed with an insight. That insight was that a day in the Islamic sense (and for what we know in a pre-Islamic sense as well) is a Judaic sunset to sunset day. And I remembered how the Quran says that a day is from sunrise to sunrise. So I plotted out sunset to sunset days and then plotted out the sunrises that would correspond those sunsets if these days were counted in a Quranic way. And that is how my 30 day month was confirmed. So no, the dictionary does not say 30 days is a month. But it does say that 29 sunset to sunset days is a month and 29 sunset to sunset days corresponds to 30 sunrise to sunrise days. This is not the same kind of correlation as 'feeling extreme heat' = 'the color red/orange' leading to Ramadan = 'Redishness/Orangeness' which is at the basis of the shahru ramadaana = Red/Orange Moon conjecture.
So here's the point (accept it if you will or reject it if you will). Without using the Quran if I read in the dictionary that a month using the Judaic formula (which is the islamic formula as well) is 29 days, and I translate those same 29 days into a sunrise-based formula those 29 Islamic/Judaic days will equal 30 sunrise-days. The dictionary assumes the Judaic concept of a day when it defines shahr. But if we translate that into the sunrise concept of a day, for 29 Judaic days we get 30 sunrise-days. I'm not going to be too repetitive here because I think that's clear.
In the end the question is not if I'm pulling my definition of shahr from the Quran, it's whether I'm pulling my definition of yawm from the Quran. That I admit to and so far I have seen no opposition to it. But I will go dig up the verse again which I believe to be a command of how we are to count days from sunrise to sunrise and I will look through the dictionaries to see if that meaning is possibly included in the dictionaries.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
You still haven't answered anything:
1. When does your arbitrary 30 day scorching month start and when does it end?
2. When do your arbitrary four restricted 30 day months start and end?
Instead, you are again repeating discredited arguments. 30 Sunni days encompass 29 "quranic" days or vice versa (since it works both ways) and 29 Sunni days (as the dictionary says) actually encompass only 28 "quranic" days and so on. Combining the Sunni "day" (which you admit is false) with the "quranic" day to get to your month is still a discredited argument. Falsehood + Truth <> Truth (if you get what I mean).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Wow, you're really getting out of hand. I'll ignore the caps. Now these are separate questions but they are finally straight up. But let me preface them with the fact that these are separate questions from what you two were asking me before, unless I missed something. if I did please just send me a quote from when you or truthseeker11 asked me these before. A quote will be enough, save the smart-alleckey comments or false accusations.
QuoteYou still haven't answered anything:
1. When does your arbitrary 30 day scorching month start and when does it end?
Now I do not believe in a scorching month. Nor is it arbitrary. Very, very disrespectful my friend, and it doesn't convince me that this is a sincere question. I'll answer it for those who are sincere. I believe in a month during a scorching period of time, i.e. summer. That is clear but in case you think it wasn't I'll reword it (I'm sure I've said this before but I'd have to go comb through my old posts. But if you missed it I can give you the benefit of the dout). During the summer anyone can pick any 30 consecutive days to fast in. Summer is different for different areas and as far as I know every summer lasts more than 30 days. So when it's summer in your neck of the woods fast 30 days of it. That's it.
Quote2. When do your arbitrary four restricted 30 day months start and end?
Again I'd like to point out the disprespect and the nasty attitude involved in this question. Saying arbitrary is just mean-spiritied and disingeniuous. As for the 4 restricted months. 1 of them is the month we fast during summer. The other 3 are the months of pilgrimage outlined in Surah Al-Quraysh as being in both winter and spring (saif used to mean spring in the Hijaazi area and not summer). I think you pointed out in one of your old posts how qaidh is really summer. And i looked this up in Lane's lexicon. I'll admit I'll need to go review it again so that I can answer any and all specific and even contorted questions about saif being spring in surah al-quraysh without ambiguities. But naturally since it falls in both winter and spring it would fall in equal parts on the dates before and after the spring equinox.
QuoteInstead, you are again repeating discredited arguments. 30 Sunni days encompass 29 "quranic" days or vice versa (since it works both ways) and 29 Sunni days (as the dictionary says) actually encompass only 28 "quranic" days and so on. Combining the Sunni "day" (which you admit is false) with the "quranic" day to get to your month is still a discredited argument. Falsehood + Truth <> Truth (if you get what I mean).
It shows from this last commment that you understood none of what I said, or you are intentionally trying to confuse it. All you have to do, and anyone can do this is write down sunsets and start day 1 on the second sunset, follow that through until you get 29 complete days. Then look at that and add all the sunrises that are apart of those days Quranically. You'lll get 30 days. Believe it or not, reject it or accept it. That is how it is. If you are honest about it you will see.
In the meanwhile take a chill pill and cool it with the caps. Thanks.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Thank you for finally answering the questions.
Quote from: progod on October 03, 2008, 01:12:45 PMNow I do not believe in a scorching month. Nor is it arbitrary. Very, very disrespectful my friend, and it doesn't convince me that this is a sincere question. I'll answer it for those who are sincere. I believe in a month during a scorching period of time, i.e. summer. That is clear but in case you think it wasn't I'll reword it (I'm sure I've said this before but I'd have to go comb through my old posts. But if you missed it I can give you the benefit of the dout). During the summer anyone can pick any 30 consecutive days to fast in. Summer is different for different areas and as far as I know every summer lasts more than 30 days. So when it's summer in your neck of the woods fast 30 days of it. That's it.
What disrespect? Look up the meaning of "arbitrary" in the dictionary, it is not a dirty word. Is stating facts disrespectful? You know very well that summer lasts for three months (longer in tropical areas). So which 30 day period out of the 3+ months should we witness so that we fast in it. Randomly picking up
any 30 consecutive days in the summer to fast is in fact
arbitrary. So your answer in fact confirms what I and others have observed.
Quote from: progod on October 03, 2008, 01:12:45 PMAgain I'd like to point out the disprespect and the nasty attitude involved in this question. Saying arbitrary is just mean-spiritied and disingeniuous. As for the 4 restricted months. 1 of them is the month we fast during summer. The other 3 are the months of pilgrimage outlined in Surah Al-Quraysh as being in both winter and spring (saif used to mean spring in the Hijaazi area and not summer). I think you pointed out in one of your old posts how qaidh is really summer. And i looked this up in Lane's lexicon. I'll admit I'll need to go review it again so that I can answer any and all specific and even contorted questions about saif being spring in surah al-quraysh without ambiguities. But naturally since it falls in both winter and spring it would fall in equal parts on the dates before and after the spring equinox.
So again, assuming that your reading of the passages is even remotely correct, your four restricted months can be
any random four of 9+ months that constitute summer, spring and winter. So they are in fact
arbitrary (no caps) :) .
Quote from: progod on October 03, 2008, 01:12:45 PMIt shows from this last commment that you understood none of what I said, or you are intentionally trying to confuse it. All you have to do, and anyone can do this is write down sunsets and start day 1 on the second sunset, follow that through until you get 29 complete days. Then look at that and add all the sunrises that are apart of those days Quranically. You'lll get 30 days. Believe it or not, reject it or accept it. That is how it is. If you are honest about it you will see.
But your starting point is the dictionary which says 29 days (from sunrise to sunrise). So 29 days from sunrise to sunrise is in fact 28 "quranic" days from sunset to sunset. Had the dictionary said 31 days (from sunrise to sunrise) then you would be correct. Write it down and check.
Peace,
Ayman
Brother Anwar, salam
I see you faltering(a rare occurence), and that also , Terribly.
Bother Ayman, salam
I have a question for you, "Period for fasting happens to be in the first time slot of Hajj, what should hajjees do?
siki
Peace brother Siki,
Quote from: siki on October 04, 2008, 12:18:58 AMI have a question for you, "Period for fasting happens to be in the first time slot of Hajj, what should hajjees do?
It depends on what you mean by "hajj". The article on the timing doesn't reflect my latest understanding on the "hajj". If you read the passages on "hajj", you will see that 90% of them have to do with sacrificing livestock and eating from it and feeding the poor. What do you call such an event where livestock and free food are a central part? It is called a feast. In fact, the word "hajj" in Hebrew literally means "feast". Since "hajj" was known since the time of Abraham then it is natural that the people of the book would know about it. The people of the book had those harvest feasts during the summer every year (while they never went to a stone cube, let alone spun around it or kissed it). So if "hajj" means feast then there is no issue during the period of abstinance in having the daily feast after sunset. This is when most people eat dinner anyway.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Anwar,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Like I said I want to hear the other argument's side on various points.
I take this stance because I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around.
Of course the reading is using a language that was already present but I definitely believe that the god will use them PRECISELY and properly. The words can be used outside in the same way but not always how they are used outside, especially in our times, is reflected in the reading and there are many examples of this. I certainly don't have access nor the time to try and find and read pre-quranic writings and such but I trust that the god's book is sufficient in trying to understand the words it uses by looking at how they are used. Also I know that many non-arabic speaking countries, like Indonesia etc. use the reading to teach themselves arabic and the 'proper' grammar.
The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse. I only need remind of the Salat as connection or method theories to prove my point. The Quran is not a dictionary.
I'm not offended at all but I was really amazed that how the reading uses a certain word doesn't matter to you. I only see room for abuse for those who want to abuse but for a sincere study of the reading, where then should be the starting point if not from the guarantee that the god is precise and we can trust how He uses words? Your main basis seems to be a Judaic definition when we KNOW that the previous scriptures have been corrupted and they have added beliefs not authorized by the god. We see how many of their erroneous beliefs and practices were incorporated into islam through hadiths. How could you possibly convince anyone to use a Judaic definition and not the reading's usage? You were given a clear example that your hypothesis that the reading supports a 30 day month doesn't work in all cases so it can't be right. If that was the pattern that the god intended it would work in all of those examples so how can you ignore that? The reading is not a dictionary but it still even exposes the corruption in man-made dictionaries, alhamdulillah!
Why does the god Himself give us the advice to 'arrange similar verses' if it doesn't mean anything? If it's: "So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me..." and "but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse."
You didn't 'answer' my point about ma'duudaat you just gave more info. My point was that it was a clue for 'shahr' being 'full moon'. I see that you are willing and acknowledge there are going to be possibilities of meanings for many words but I believe the final criterion is how they are used in the reading, that either supports a choice or it doesn't. That's where the 'arranging' comes in.
We see this in everyday usage of the word 'numbered' and we need to expect that when we read the Quran's words.
This assumption to me is very dangerous, what do you base it on? 'Everyday usage' is subjective. I expect the great reading to be the truth, precise and consistent. If I find that the reading does not support an 'everyday usage' I will discard the 'everyday usage' and go with how the reading uses whatever word.
Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross.
I would never do that! The arabic grammarians will always LOSE! ;D It's not dedicated to that but since it's 'precise' I can expect that the reading's usage is certainly the truth and true grammar and not the other way around.
Grammarians made it a point to record how Classical Arabic words were used and how its grammar was used. So it is never a Quran vs. Grammarian scenario, that sort of scenario is completely nonsensical.
Yes, it has that 'man-made' element and that's why it's not the final authority. It's not a vs. scenario per se but we will inevitably have to compare the two and the reading will have to win out.
The question here is what does the Quran mean when it refers to shahr.
This is the crux of this debate/ discussion so what should be the final criterion? I've pointed out how your theory of 30 day month partially based on a certain hypothesis surrounding certain verses pertaining to fasting doesn't work in all cases so you have went 'outside' the reading as well to try and make your hypothesis have more weight. :confused::confused: I can't agree with that methodology: the conclusion I want isn't supported by the reading except if I make up some theory from certain verses, I will ignore the contradictions/ inconsistencies it makes in the reading and I will look elsewhere to make may conclusion strong and make it 'look like' the reading supports my conclusion. :o Wow, I can't do that.
I think it is clear from all I have presented in my previous posts that the Quran prefers the meaning of 30 sunrise to sunrise days in its context. And I think it is confirmed in the fact that using this conclusion we will always only have and be able to count only 12 shahr in the year, not a shahr more or less. And so I don't have to explain later, the naturally occurring extra 5 or 6 days after the 12th shahr are never to be ignored but the fact is that they will never constitute a shahr or an extension of any shahr because the Quranically preferred shahr is 30 (sunrise to sunrise) days. No more, no less.
Like I said, it's good to look at all of the possibilities and keep it open, the reading will inevitably narrow it down. :) I must agree however that those extra 5 or 6 days, if intended by verse 9:36, it would have been included. It seems, in my opinion, by all of what you have posted, that you don't believe in the preciseness of the god's book. This then is why we disagree. If shahr is taken, out of the possibilities, to be 'full moon' and it leaves nothing left uncovered and keeps consistency in the reading, then why would it be rejected for something else? If the god says 12 shahr, 12 full moons are EXACTLY that, nothing more, nothing less. Why would you bring an opinion that leaves some extra, that brings inconsistency in other verses? ???
Umm Tariq
Peace,
Wow, Ayman. This is becoming quite disgusting. I can't say anything without you twisting what I said and then claiming I said what I didn't.
I could call your taking out the 13th month arbitrary, because the Qurand doesn't command mankind to do anything in 9:36 but states a fact since when God made the heavens and the earth and how doing otherwise would be going against the system God put in place since the beginning. But you know what I still am not going to stoop and say it is arbitrary, not because it is not, but out of respect that you honestly think that this is correct. It is obvious that it is wrong but it is disrespectful to call it arbitrary as if you just pick it out of the air. That is in essence saying that your decision is whimsical, and it is an insult to your motives. You are not stating facts at all, and you are intentionally twisting the things I say which is in reality just plain old malciousness.
Randomly picking up any 30 days in the summer is not my arbitrary position, which is what you really want to say. It is the Quranic injunction, to fast 30 days in the summer. So if anything don't call me aribitrary on the my conclusion, maybe you really want to call God that. You are the king twister of words. I see it. I hope other see it, and I pray you come around.
All of my points concerning the 4 sacred/restricted months is based on Quranic verses. The 3 holy months during spring and winter are in the surah quraysh. If you want to discuss that we can but don't go trying to confound the issues into one pig hodge-podge which needs to be broken up an sorted out issue by issue. 'A month in summer' is the meaning of shahru ramadaana. The 30 days in a shahr is based on the natural conversion of 29 sunset to sunset days into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
And speking on that here is where you try to twist my words on the last issue, you said in your last post
QuoteBut your starting point is the dictionary which says 29 days (from sunrise to sunrise). So 29 days from sunrise to sunrise is in fact 28 "quranic" days from sunset to sunset.
If you said this on accident I can forgive you but if you did this on purpose you need to come around and ask God for forgiveness for these vile tactics. This is NOT what I said. I said, and have alwasys said, that t
he dictionary assumes 29 sunset to sunset days and if that is translated into sunrise to sunrise days (the Quranic version of a day)
then converts naturally into 30 days. Please do not twist my words, nor ask me to map out anything based on your twisting of my words. You have been doing this for a long time and I can't believe you have a following with this type of dishonest behavior at work. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you misunderstood what I said so here is the map. T stands for tuloo3 ro sunrise and G stnad for ghuroob or sunset. T(1) is the completion of first sunrise day and G(1) is the completion of the first sunset day (The dictionary's day).
T G T(1) G(1) T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T
So in the dictionary's day (the Islamic and Judaic day) the first sunset which starts the day falls Quranically withing the context of the previous sunrise and the next one.
SO I welcome everyone to count and see for yourselves that 29 Dictionary days (Islamic and Judaic) fall within the context of 30 surnise days (Quranic days).
And so there is no tmore twising
A QUranic day = sunrise to sunrise day and
a Dictionary (islamic & judaic) day = sunset to sunset day not the otherway around. Ayman was twisting my words.
As for Siki,
Why the instigatory comments? I'm faltering? I have never been clearer, but I can tell you this I am tiring of negatve comments by people like you, as well as having to untwist my words everytime a Scorching Full Moon defender responds to my posts.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace,
I see a confusion between the Quran's role as an example of impeccable Arabic and a methodology for interpreting the Quran based on context guessing at words. The two are not the same. And people who use the Quran to learn good Arabic are using dictionaries or translations to understand the definitions of words and just imitating the grammar involved in how words are put together using Qurnic sentences and phrases as a template. So I am afraid you are confusing issues here.
I have no clue what you mean by Judaic definition. If you could explain I'd appreciate it. As for a 30 day shahr working in all cases this came down to the words in English that I was choosing to communicate this concept. And I did my best to explain that whenever the Quran created a compensation or subsittute for a fast it was clear that it was on a daily basis. The few context that didn't work according to my opponents on the issue have no compensation or subsitute for fasting, fasting is always the very last option which cannot be subsituted. So I was not proven wrong that in the Quran fasting is dealt with on a daily basis and that 2 shahr in this context is made equal to 60 days. My opponets take all the contexts where fasting is the last option and read it backwords and then use this backwards logic to say I have been proven wrong and that is just not the case. You can't read passages backwards and expect to get the right answer. In all those passages they point to fasting can be compensating by nothing. It is the absolute last form of redemption. Look and you will see.
The Quranic advice to arrange similar verses has to do with defining and clarifiying the TOPIC, not defining and clarifying words. In the cases where a topic consists of one word we are only narrowing down the defintions found in the dictionaries, seeing which meanings the Quran prefers in its contexts.
As for ma'doodah you can't make up your mind about a topic and then take one meaning and act like it is a clue to the decision you've already decicded on. That fact is that ma'doodat does not have to mean few and as counted/numbered it can be a clue that 30 days is what is meant as well. You see what I mean you can't single out a meaning like that for the theory you prefer and act like that is a clue when it has other meanings that can work for other possibilites as well.
As far as the every day use of numbered being a dangerous assumption. You are pitting the bigger language against the Quran again and it doesn't work like that. The Quran is going to chose a meaning from the words of the bigger langauge that it is using, and use all of those meanings or certain meanings. And context narrows down meaning it does not define in and of itself. in the case of ma'doodaat there is no proof that the meaning has been narrowed down to 'few' in the context of the Quran, because the other meanings can work just as well with the other meanings of shahr besides full moon.
Quote
Anwar: Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross. Umm Tariq: I would never do that! The arabic grammarians will always LOSE! Grin It's not dedicated to that but since it's 'precise' I can expect that the reading's usage is certainly the truth and true grammar and not the other way around.
Your answer makes it clear that you are doing just that. The point is that unless the Quran says 'wordA equals wordB'' or ''wordA equals sets of wordsC"
then you cannot guess at definitions from context. Context only narrows down the definitions already found in the dictionaries. So the Quran can if it wanted to invent its own meanings but it would have to specifically say that a word means such and such for that to work. Otherwise if you don't use dictionaries or some other form of valid linguistic resource (the dictionary writers used native speakers of Classical Arabic) outside of the Quran to point to the meanings of the words in the Quran being used in the Classical Arabic langauge at large then you will be just guessing meanings and claiming that they are Quranic definitions becuase you guessed at them in the context of the Quran.
QuoteYes, it has that 'man-made' element and that's why it's not the final authority. It's not a vs. scenario per se but we will inevitably have to compare the two and the reading will have to win out.
Compare what two? You cannot compare a composition in any language to a book dedicated to the meanings of the language at large. That is like comparing any any book you read to the dictionary and expecting for the meanings of the words to be different? Apples and Oranges. You can't guess at words in the context of the Quran then look at the dictionary, possibly find a different meaning and then say that the dictionary loses when the source of the definition is YOU, not the Quran. You see what I'm saying?
As far as 9:36 I have been clear on this. A 6th of a 30 days is not 30 days. So if a shahr is 30 days and there are 12 of them then 5 or 6 days extra does not change the count of the 30-day shuhoor involved. But having 13 natural full moons in the year when God says in 9:36 that there have only been 12 since he created the heavens and the earth (i.e. before mankind began to count) and then saying that we can just not count the 13th moon because 9:36 is a command when it is not, it is the statement of a fact since the creation of the heavens and the earth, well, that is just plain old manipulation.
I understand that human beings have this attraction to exact perfection and exact numbers. But the fact that seeing a shahr in the context of the Quran as 30 days adds nothing and takes nothing away and still mainatins the count of shuhoor as 12 in the year, I think that is pefect in and of itself and steers us away from human manipulations that ingore the reality of the matter.
Here are the facts:
1. If shahr is full moon then there have been 13 shuhoor since the creation of the heavens and the earth, and at the very least God has been counting 12 despite the fact that he created 13. So what would be the point of that? Why would he create 13 and only count twelve? Just like why would he give mankind a brain and then ask us not to use it to know of Him? This is Trinitarian logic. Check 9:36
2. If the dictionary references ramada as the feeling or sense of extreme heat. Then how does anyone have the right to imply that because of two usages that MIGHT involve the redness of the eyes or redness of the thighs changes the meaning of the word and makes it imply redness? Redness is never mentioned in the definition and I still dout that it is a requisite that someone's eyes turn red when they feel hot. I'm sure everyone has had that experience where you're eyes burn for a little bit and no-one you ask notices any difference. As for the meaning of the thighs feeling extremely hot when rubbed, note that redness again is not mentioned in the definition and people with very dark thighs (and there were a number of very dark Arabs thoughout Arabia during the prophets time and before ('Antar's nickname was ghuraab (crow) because he was so black) don't get red thighs. So how can we imply redness from only 2 usages of the word that don't have to include redness? Whereas all references deal with the sensation of extreme heat.
3. Seeing shahr as 30 days within the context of the Quran, with the verses referring to compensation/substituion for fasting being referenced and with the natural conversion of 29 sunset days to 30 sunrise days fixes the count of shahr as 12 with the 5 or 6 days left over not comprising a shahr in any way. They are counted and at best can be seen as transitionary days but this defintion goes along with the Quran in every way.
4. Shahru ramadaana is the fasting of a month during summer. Ayman would use the word aribitrary as a trigger word to make others think that I made this decision arbitrarily and then have his cover up as picking any random 30 days during the summer to fast as arbitrary (triigger-word again). But if God is saying you can pick any 30 days to fast during the summer than the issue is not arbitrary any more but the freedom God has given us to start and stop our fasting during summer according to what is best for us. Freedom to choose, not arbitrariness.
Also I would love to ask you to talk to Ayman about how he deals with the case endings of shahru ramaadana and the like. I'm sure he'll try to attack me on it instead of allowing to you ask him and have him answer. But when he tells you how he feels the original Quran and Classical Arabic in general had no case endings and that he takes his evidence from Arabic inscriptions as well as the well known ommision of case endings during the wuqoof in Quranic recitation and ignores all of the other case endings besides the wuqoof that are always used in recitation, as well as the fact that if an inscription says 3amala or shahrun no only are the case endings absent but the internal vowels as well, giving you just 3ml and sh-hr and giving absolutely no clue at all of how to pronunce these words THEN you will understand the underlying faults in all these conclusions of his. As always . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
I'm not going to be able to review this post thoroughly for spelling mistakes so if you misundestand anything or think I made a mistake in my wording please send me a pm or a response asking me to clarify. I type relatively well but I make a lot of mistakes and sometimes use inexact word choices that others will misunderstand. I think I did relatively well on this post. It took me over an hour. Enjoy.
Now, let the senseless attacks and twisting of my words begin!! :jedi:
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 04, 2008, 11:35:05 AMWow, Ayman. This is becoming quite disgusting. I can't say anything without you twisting what I said and then claiming I said what I didn't.
So "arbitrary" is disrespectful while "disgusting" is not! You are again showing your double standards of not accepting any criticism but then lashing out at others.
Quote from: progod on October 04, 2008, 11:35:05 AMI could call your taking out the 13th month arbitrary,
You could by disregarding the difference between "3idat" and "3adad" and assume that the god uses those two words haphazardly.
Quote from: progod on October 04, 2008, 11:35:05 AMbecause the Qurand doesn't command mankind to do anything in 9:36 but states a fact since when God made the heavens and the earth and how doing otherwise would be going against the system God put in place since the beginning. But you know what I still am not going to stoop and say it is arbitrary, not because it is not, but out of respect that you honestly think that this is correct. It is obvious that it is wrong but it is disrespectful to call it arbitrary as if you just pick it out of the air. That is in essence saying that your decision is whimsical, and it is an insult to your motives. You are not stating facts at all, and you are intentionally twisting the things I say which is in reality just plain old malciousness.
Arbitrary doesn't mean malacious. The 7 days of the week are arbitrary does this mean that you are malacious for following the week? The sectarian timing for the fast is arbitrary it doesn't mean that they are malacious. It simply means that they and you don't know the correct timing.
Quote from: progod on October 04, 2008, 11:35:05 AMRandomly picking up any 30 days in the summer is not my arbitrary position, which is what you really want to say. It is the Quranic injunction, to fast 30 days in the summer. So if anything don't call me aribitrary on the my conclusion, maybe you really want to call God that. You are the king twister of words. I see it. I hope other see it, and I pray you come around.
The god often commands us to do things in an arbitrary way. For example, 9:41 "anfiru Khufafa wa thuqala", so in this case they are told to go out in any arbitrary way between light and heavy and all that matters that they go out to fight. On the other hand, we are not told to fast any arbitrary 30 day period in summer (which could be up to 6 months in tropical areas) as long as we fast.
Quote from: progod on October 04, 2008, 11:35:05 AMAll of my points concerning the 4 sacred/restricted months is based on Quranic verses. The 3 holy months during spring and winter are in the surah quraysh. If you want to discuss that we can but don't go trying to confound the issues into one pig hodge-podge which needs to be broken up an sorted out issue by issue. 'A month in summer' is the meaning of shahru ramadaana. The 30 days in a shahr is based on the natural conversion of 29 sunset to sunset days into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
Anwar, you have effectively abrogated the restriction on hunting with your arbitrary "restricted months". According to you in the same way that every person can fast whatever 30 day period they like in the summer, every person can cease hunting any additional three 30 day periods they like in the spring and winter. So essentially the hunting restriction is no more since if I can't hunt today because it is my 30 day period but my son or my brother can then he would go out and hunt for the both of us.
Quote from: progod on October 04, 2008, 11:35:05 AMAnd speking on that here is where you try to twist my words on the last issue, you said in your last post
If you said this on accident I can forgive you but if you did this on purpose you need to come around and ask God for forgiveness for these vile tactics. This is NOT what I said. I said, and have alwasys said, that the dictionary assumes 29 sunset to sunset days and if that is translated into sunrise to sunrise days (the Quranic version of a day) then converts naturally into 30 days. Please do not twist my words, nor ask me to map out anything based on your twisting of my words. You have been doing this for a long time and I can't believe you have a following with this type of dishonest behavior at work. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you misunderstood what I said so here is the map. T stands for tuloo3 ro sunrise and G stnad for ghuroob or sunset. T(1) is the completion of first sunrise day and G(1) is the completion of the first sunset day (The dictionary's day).
So in the dictionary's day (the Islamic and Judaic day) the first sunset which starts the day falls Quranically withing the context of the previous sunrise and the next one.
SO I welcome everyone to count and see for yourselves that 29 Dictionary days (Islamic and Judaic) fall within the context of 30 surnise days (Quranic days).
And so there is no tmore twising A QUranic day = sunrise to sunrise day and a Dictionary (islamic & judaic) day = sunset to sunset day not the otherway around. Ayman was twisting my words.
Anwar, it doesn't matter. 29 days sunset to sunset are going to contain 28 days sunrise to sunrise and 29 days sunrise to sunrise are going to contain 28 days sunset to sunset. If we say that the dictionary definition is sunset to sunset or G-G, then here is the dictionary definition:
G T G(1) T(1) G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G
How many T-T are in here? Can't you count them? The answer is 28.
In order for you to arrive at 30 days, you have to start from a dictionary definition of 31 days. This is indisputable. This entire discussion is also besides the point since your very basis of 30 days is founded on shaky grounds and you ignoring that A=B and A=C then B=C.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Ayman why do you refuse to get this?
1. If you map out the 29 G's involved in a sunset to sunset day and then include all of the sunrises connected to those sunsets, you get 30 Quranic/sunrise days. You need to add a T to the front of and the end of the following:
QuoteG T G(1) T(1) G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G
Why? Because the first G of the Islamic/Judaic day is naturally inside of the Quranic day that started at sunrise and ends at the next sunrise being T G T and not G T. The last G of the Islamic/Judaic day also belongs inside of the Quranic day that began the sunrise before it, and ends on sunrise the next day. Hence you should have T G T at the end, not T G. Therefore you cannot take those two T's out and be honest with this issue.
So it shoud be: T G T(1) G(1) T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T
And not what you have because, I will repeat, you are forgeting that the first G is inside of the first Quranic day that began at sunrise and the last G inside of the Quranic day that will end the following sunrise.
As for disgusting and me being hypocritical about offensive descriptives, I do find how you twisted my words in the last post disgusting. I also find these long and invetibale diatribes disgusting as well. I hate having to untwist my words with most of the responses to my posts here. But I don't find your conclusions disgusting. You were implying that my conclusions were arbitrary. If you deny that I will be skeptical, but I will be forced to forgive you. I think your choice of words was loaded. Like using the word tactic instead of strategy. So picking any 30 days within summer is not an arbitrary choice. Whereas the particular thirty days we pick to fast during the summer may be an artibtrary choice for us. There is a difference in these two phrasings (whether you believe me or not), and you were not making that clear. Let me state that again so you cannot try to say I'm contradicting myself because you didn't understand it. The Quranic command as I see it of picking any 30 days during the summer is not arbitrary, whereas the particular set of 30 days within the summer that we decide to pick is. If you understood that you were not making your understanding clear to me. Why am I having to clarify your use of words? You should be looking for where I may have misunderstood you and helping to forge an understanding not letting these misunderstandings stand and seeking to take advantage of them.
From your words here I can now assume that you do understand what I am saying:
QuoteOn the other hand, we are not told to fast any arbitrary 30 day period in summer (which could be up to 6 months in tropical areas) as long as we fast.
But you point out these six months as to make it seem too long a period. But what God says goes. So even if summer is 6 months, we can pick any 30 days during those 6 months to fast, whether that sits well with you or not is a personal issue. But up until now you have not proven that ramadan can't mean summer, nor have you proven that shahr cannot be 30 days. You have only been twisting my words, repeating my points with opportune ommisions or denying what I've been saying in order to give the impression that you've dsproven these ideas. Denying and misconstruing do not equal disproving.
And I wasn't saying that arbitrary means malicious. I never said that. I am saying that your generalizing this concpet as arbitrary was a malicious choice of words.
I find it funny that you expect ny ideas to go along with your expectations and conclusions (almost as a requisite for being correct) about the ban on hunting. When fasting and when in the months for pilgrimage we are not to hunt, simple as that. So whenever you chose to fast during the summer making sure you have a full 30 days to fast, you, yourself, and anyone fasting along with you are not to hunt. Along the same lines, we are not to hunt during the 3 months for pilgrimage where our local spring equinox falls in the middle of these 3 months so that the time of pilgrimage falls in both winter and spring per Surah Al-Quraysh. I know you have these ideas about the ban on hunting following general patterns in the animal world for mating, times of plenty and times of scant, but these are your ideas which you pull from modern (albeit ecologically sound) policies of hunting bans and permits, rather than the Quran. These ideas are not in the Quran but you are forcing them into the Quran because that's how you think it should be. I'll admit that these are good intentions but they are just not Quranic injunctions when it comes to the prohibition of hunting during the sacred/restricted months. And by the way if you know you are not to hunt but you send someone else to go out and hunt for you that is obvious dishonesty. Imagine living among Christians, pagans or Jews (and early Quranists in Mecca did) who do not follow our book and we tell them to go out and hunt for us when we are not allowed to hunt. Is that right? Obviously not. So I don't see how you can assume that something like that would ever be Quranically permissable by following my understanding of the sacred/restricted months and what our Quranic duties in them are. The only other possiblity that you are implying is that we absolutely ban hunting for everyone during these times of prohibition even if they are not observing the hurum and that we impose Quranic injunctions onto those who don't follow our book, which I am adamantly against.
I don't think God uses 3adad and 3iddah haphazardly, rather I think you are exaggerating the differences in the meaning and usage of these two words to justify your ideas. Especially since in the context of 9:36 this difference is irrelevant because the counting is God's, since he created the heavens and the earth, and not man's. The difference between "3adad and 3iddah is exactly equal to the difference between a count of something and a number of something. Whereas I recognize the miniscule difference between the two words, as many people here in the U.S. say, "It's the same difference."
Quote
n order for you to arrive at 30 days, you have to start from a dictionary definition of 31 days. This is indisputable. This entire discussion is also besides the point since your very basis of 30 days is founded on shaky grounds and you ignoring that A=B and A=C then B=C.
I've shown you above probably for the 3rd time that you do not have to start from 31 sunset days to arrive at 30 sunrise days. But because you omit from the proper mapping out of this and refuse to understand the logic behind it you keep getting the wrong answer. I explained it earlier in this post and I'm gonna revisit it one more time.
1. Once you have mapped out all of the sunsets involved in 29 sunset-days to get the correct conversion to sunrise-days you have to include ALL of the sunrises associated with those sunsets in terms of a Quranic day.
2. What does that mean? It means that if an Islamic/Judaic day starts with a sunset you have to incude the previoius sunrise. Why? Because that sunset is inside of a sunset day that already started.
3. Here it is (G= sunset and T = Sunrise): G T G(1) = Sunset to sunrise to sunset. That is one Islamic/Judaic day. But a Quranic/sunrise day is T G T = sunrise to sunset to sunrise. You cannot have a Quranic day without this equation, and as you see any sunset is already inside of a Quranic day that started at the previous sunrise.
4. So If you have a sunset day of G T G, that naturally transates into two sunrise days, i.e. T G T G T. Why? Because no sunset can stand alone in a Quranic day without already being apart of a sunrise-day that began the sunrise before. And the sunrise after that sunset officially ends that Quranic day. Get it?
So count it again: T G T(1) G(1) T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T
See it now?
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AM1. If you map out the 29 G's involved in a sunset to sunset day and then include all of the sunrises connected to those sunsets, you get 30 Quranic/sunrise days. You need to add a T to the front of and the end of the following:
Why? Because the first G of the Islamic/Judaic day is naturally inside of the Quranic day that started at sunrise and ends at the next sunrise being T G T and not G T. The last G of the Islamic/Judaic day also belongs inside of the Quranic day that began the sunrise before it, and ends on sunrise the next day. Hence you should have T G T at the end, not T G. Therefore you cannot take those two T's out and be honest with this issue.
So it shoud be: T G T(1) G(1) T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T
And not what you have because, I will repeat, you are forgeting that the first G is inside of the first Quranic day that began at sunrise and the last G inside of the Quranic day that will end the following sunrise.
This is not based on the dictionary. What I gave are the 29 dictionary days which contain 28 "quranic" days. What you did was extend the dictionary days. If you had no preconception of 30 days and you simply looked up the meaning in the dictionary, then you wouldn't get 30 and you would get 28 sunrise to sunrise days within the dictionary's 29 days based on your theory. It is useless to reason with you.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMAs for disgusting and me being hypocritical about offensive descriptives, I do find how you twisted my words in the last post disgusting. I also find these long and invetibale diatribes disgusting as well. I hate having to untwist my words with most of the responses to my posts here. But I don't find your conclusions disgusting. You were implying that my conclusions were arbitrary. If you deny that I will be skeptical, but I will be forced to forgive you. I think your choice of words was loaded. Like using the word tactic instead of strategy. So picking any 30 days within summer is not an arbitrary choice. Whereas the particular thirty days we pick to fast during the summer may be an artibtrary choice for us. There is a difference in these two phrasings (whether you believe me or not), and you were not making that clear. Let me state that again so you cannot try to say I'm contradicting myself because you didn't understand it. The Quranic command as I see it of picking any 30 days during the summer is not arbitrary, whereas the particular set of 30 days within the summer that we decide to pick is. If you understood that you were not making your understanding clear to me. Why am I having to clarify your use of words? You should be looking for where I may have misunderstood you and helping to forge an understanding not letting these misunderstandings stand and seeking to take advantage of them.
Yeah right. An arbitrary choice is not arbitrary.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMFrom your words here I can now assume that you do understand what I am saying:
But you point out these six months as to make it seem too long a period. But what God says goes.
The god doesn't say things without a reason. According to you the hunting restrictions have no purpose and effectively you have voided and annuled them.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMSo even if summer is 6 months, we can pick any 30 days during those 6 months to fast, whether that sits well with you or not is a personal issue. But up until now you have not proven that ramadan can't mean summer,
You are contradicting yourself again. The word "ramadan" can't mean "summer" even per your mangled understanding. In case you haven't noticed, summer is longer than 30 days.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMnor have you proven that shahr cannot be 30 days.
It can't mean 30 days, unless you invent your own meaning for the word "shahr" as you are doing and failing miserably at it, I might add. On the other hand, I don't have to cling to straws like you to invent anything, the meaning of full-moon is right there in the dictionary and it fits all the contexts in the great reading.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMYou have only been twisting my words, repeating my points with opportune ommisions or denying what I've been saying in order to give the impression that you've dsproven these ideas. Denying and misconstruing do not equal disproving.
No, disproving equals disproving except of course to the one who is clinging to straws and being disproved: you.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMI find it funny that you expect ny ideas to go along with your expectations and conclusions (almost as a requisite for being correct) about the ban on hunting. When fasting and when in the months for pilgrimage we are not to hunt, simple as that.
Why? What is the purpose of the hunting restriction if according to you everyone can hunt whenever they want? They can delay their own personal hunting restriction if they feel like hunting this month. As I said, you have practically abrogated the hunting restriction.
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMSo whenever you chose to fast during the summer making sure you have a full 30 days to fast, you, yourself, and anyone fasting along with you are not to hunt. Along the same lines, we are not to hunt during the 3 months for pilgrimage where our local spring equinox falls in the middle of these 3 months so that the time of pilgrimage falls in both winter and spring per Surah Al-Quraysh. I know you have these ideas about the ban on hunting following general patterns in the animal world for mating, times of plenty and times of scant, but these are your ideas which you pull from modern (albeit ecologically sound) policies of hunting bans and permits, rather than the Quran. These ideas are not in the Quran but you are forcing them into the Quran because that's how you think it should be. I'll admit that these are good intentions but they are just not Quranic injunctions when it comes to the prohibition of hunting during the sacred/restricted months. And by the way if you know you are not to hunt but you send someone else to go out and hunt for you that is obvious dishonesty. Imagine living among Christians, pagans or Jews (and early Quranists in Mecca did) who do not follow our book and we tell them to go out and hunt for us when we are not allowed to hunt. Is that right? Obviously not. So I don't see how you can assume that something like that would ever be Quranically permissable by following my understanding of the sacred/restricted months and what our Quranic duties in them are. The only other possiblity that you are implying is that we absolutely ban hunting for everyone during these times of prohibition even if they are not observing the hurum and that we impose Quranic injunctions onto those who don't follow our book, which I am adamantly against.
Yes, if you really have faith in what the god is telling you then we absolutely should ban hunting for everyone during the restriction period, in the same way that stealing and killing is banned on everyone.
Do you go hunting deer in rural PA outside of the hunting season and you tell the park rangers "I am a follower of Anwar's interpretation of the book and therefore you can't impose your hunting restrictions on me"?!!
Quote from: progod on October 05, 2008, 11:28:14 AMI don't think God uses 3adad and 3iddah haphazardly, rather I think you are exaggerating the differences in the meaning and usage of these two words to justify your ideas.
At least there is a difference and I am not making up completely baseless meanings and then working backwards to find any straw to hang to.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
After the latest posts and clarifications by Anwar, following are the 10 holes in his defective logic about this issue:
10 REASONS "SHAHR" CANNOT BE "30 DAY MONTH"
1 - 9:36 uses the word "3iddat"/count and not "3adad"/number. It makes a big difference contrary to what Anwar keeps saying. If it had said "3adad"/number, then the number of "30 day months" in a solar year can be 12 but the "3iddat"/count of "30 day months" in a solar year is 12 and 1/6 and not 12, and would thus contradict al-quran. Anyone with an understanding of basic mathematics knows that a time period can be counted in fractions, and that there is a difference in count of something versus number of something. God did not say "there are 12 shuhoor", but says "the count of shuhoor is 12".
2 - There is no DIRECT COMPENSATION for fasting anywhere in al-quran except in 2:184, so 58:3-4 or 5:89 cannot be used as reference to deduce something pertaining to compensation for fasting, or the meaning of "shahr".
3 - When different alternative compensations are stated for a certain negative behavior, all the alternate compensations are EQUIVALENT, and the order of mentioning them does not matter. 58:3-4 talks about compensation for estranging one's wife, and the different compensations are all equivalent, no matter what the order. 5:89 talks about compensation for breaking oath, and the different compensations are all equivalent, no matter what the order. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C, and C=A, and C=B, and B=A. According to 5:89, the ratio of fasting to feeding the poor is 1:3.33. Using this ratio, 60 people would equal 18 days, which would make 2 shahr equal 18 days and each shahr equal 9 days ! Because there is a discrepancy in the ratio of fasting to feeding people obtained from 58:3-4 and 5:89, neither can be used to define the meaning of "shahr".
4 - No Classical Arabic Dictionary defines "shahr" as "month always containing 30 days". 29 sunset to sunset days can never be equated to 30 sunrise to sunrise days, but can be equivalent to 29 sunrise to sunrise days, or can contain 28 sunrise to sunrise days. This logic of 29 sunset to sunset days being equated to 30 sunrise to sunrise days is the most absurd and ridiculous argument I have ever heard in my life, and cannot possibly fool any educated person even with elementary knowledge of counting.
Where in al-quran it says that a day is sunrise to sunrise? It could be sunset to sunset, as sunset has been mentioned in the context of timing of salat, but cannot possibly be sunrise to sunrise.
5 - Arbitrary starting time of four 30 day months will abrogate the hunting restriction commanded in al-quran. If everyone can arbitrarily determine their own starting time for the 30 day period during summer, and also arbitrarily determine their own starting time for the four restricted 30 day periods over a 9 month period, then it is a fact that hunting animals will continue at all times by some people, and therefore there will be no practical hunting restriction at all. This would abrogate the hunting restriction according to al-quran, and is mockery of God's signs at the highest level.
6 - Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait 90 days? The meaning of "month of 30 days" in 65:4 would result in a major inconsistency in al-quran, because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days.
7 - All 30 days have to be witnessed in order to witness a month of 30 days. No one can witness a month of 30 days just on seeing the first day. The only way to fulfil 2:185 will be to witness all the 30 days first and then start fasting, but then how long do we fast? If we start fasting during that 30 day month, then we are violating the command to witness it first. Hence it is impossible to witness the 30 day month before fasting AND fast during it.
8 - 2:185 tells us to fast it and not fast in it. How can a person fast for 30 days non-stop? The usage of "fast it" obviously implies that "it" is an event/marker, and not the time period for fasting.
9 - It is a ridiculous redundancy to say "complete the count" after saying "whoever among you witnesses the month of 30 days then fast it" (meaning fast for 30 days). There is no clarification needed to complete the count if it is already stated to fast for 30 days.
10 - 2:185 mentions DESCENT of al-quran, and not repetition or compilation. Where in al-quran does it say that it was repetitively descended each day for 30 days? 44:3 and 97:1 clearly tell us that the descent was in a single night.
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 05, 2008, 11:11:42 PM10 REASONS "SHAHR" CANNOT BE "30 DAY MONTH"
There are many more than ten. For example, we are told that the crescents are used as timing devices for the people and for the feast ("hajj"). Anwar completely ignores the moon cycle. He has also not said exactly when his solar year would start. The start of his solar year would determine when the 30 day periods would occur. So this is another arbitrary factor since he doesn't precisely specify it. Also, the feast/"hajj" is said in the great reading to be in KNOWN "ashhur". By making those "ashhur" up to each person, they become unknown because we can't read people's minds. etc. etc.
At this stage, I don't think that we can convince Anwar of anything. However, if he is serious about finding the correct timing of the restriction and the fast, then he should try to at least figure out a timing that wouldn't abrogate the restriction. Because fasting a random month is one thing but violating the god's restrictions is unacceptable and has specific legal consequences (see 5:95). A not well known arbitrary restriction period that is left up to each person's desires would make a mockery out of the god's law.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for drawing attention to the additional reasons. I should have titled it "at least 10 reasons"!
Another point came to my mind while I was pondering over 97:3. Why would God compare a night with "months"? It would be more consistent and make more sense to compare a night (which contained the scorching full-moon - 2:185) with 1000 full-moons, rather than 1000 "months".
Peace all -- to clear up a few miss truths...
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 05, 2008, 11:11:42 PM
1 - 9:36 uses the word "3iddat"/count and not "3adad"/number. It makes a big difference contrary to what Anwar keeps saying. If it had said "3adad"/number, then the number of "30 day months" in a solar year can be 12 but the "3iddat"/count of "30 day months" in a solar year is 12 and 1/6 and not 12, and would thus contradict al-quran. Anyone with an understanding of basic mathematics knows that a time period can be counted in fractions, and that there is a difference in count of something versus number of something. God did not say "there are 12 shuhoor", but says "the count of shuhoor is 12".
count -- to assign a number, to enumerate.
time -- an agreed upon standard; an hour, a day, a month, a year, etc...
2:217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted...
ONE full moon? How much time is that exactly?
There is NO such thing as a FULL MOON unit of time and never was in the history of the world.
Fast 2 full moons is meaningless; if want to translate it as the time between 2 full moons or 1 month then do so.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 05, 2008, 11:11:42 PM
6 - Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait 90 days? The meaning of "month of 30 days" in 65:4 would result in a major inconsistency in al-quran, because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days.
Get the full moon out of your head; women's menses have NOTHING to do with it.
1. menstruating women wait 3 cycles which can vary from weeks to 90 days or longer
2. menopausal and non menstruating women wait 3 months
3. widows (menstruating or not) wait 4 months and 10 days regardless
The above are all different categories and therefore different -- there is NO contradiction except when using full moon.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 05, 2008, 11:11:42 PM
8 - 2:185 tells us to fast it and not fast in it. How can a person fast for 30 days non-stop?
Read the rest of the book.
Now tell us how you fast it "a full moon" which occurs for a minute?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 06, 2008, 03:00:45 AM
Another point came to my mind while I was pondering over 97:3. Why would God compare a night with "months"? It would be more consistent and make more sense to compare a night (which contained the scorching full-moon - 2:185) with 1000 full-moons, rather than 1000 "months".
Yeah to you; what's the difference between 1000 months and 999 months (1000 full moons) -- 1 month right?
Also, how do you know that particular scorching full moon happened in the night; what if it was during the day?
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ?Jul 2, 2004 Full at 2:09 PM
Jun 22, 2005 Full at 7:14 AM
Jul 11, 2006 Full at 6:02 AM
Jun 30, 2007 Full at 4:49 PM
Jul 18, 2008 Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 12:22 PM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 2:31 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 9:40 AM
Full moon shortchanges every commandment by a month; a serious mistake and Ayman said so will be no excuse.
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMcount -- to assign a number, to enumerate.
No it is not to assign a number. You are repeating Khalifa's false idea. It is to enumerate. It involves an act of counting, not arbitarily assigning a certain number.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMtime -- an agreed upon standard; an hour, a day, a month, a year, etc...
2:217 They ask you about the full moon the restricted...
ONE full moon? How much time is that exactly?
There is NO such thing as a FULL MOON unit of time and never was in the history of the world.
The restricted full moon signals the begining of the restriction period. Read the rest of the great reading, we have to count four restricted full moons (out of the 12 in a year) to know the restriction period.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMFast 2 full moons is meaningless; if want to translate it as the time between 2 full moons or 1 month then do so.
Fasting two full moons is like waiting the time between two menstruations. You fast between the two full-moons in the same way that a woman would wait between two menstruations and doesn't get married in between. This is why full-moon is used to substitute for menstruations, the way we count them is the same.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMGet the full moon out of your head; women's menses have NOTHING to do with it.
1. menstruating women wait 3 cycles which can vary from weeks to 90 days or longer
Yes.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AM2. menopausal and non menstruating women wait 3 months
No menopausal and non menstruating women who have despaired from menstruation completely wait
ZERO time. They wait for 3 full-moons only on the rare occasion when you (not they) are suspicious. You are still unable to read 65:4.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AM3. widows (menstruating or not) wait 4 months and 10 days regardless
It is four full moons and ten days. The extra ten days is the time for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage again. This allows the crescent to be used for timing as per 2:189. You on the other hand, don't use the crescent to time anything.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMNow tell us how you fast it "a full moon" which occurs for a minute?
This is why we are told to complete the count of "a few days". It is the same way if I told you to fast "now" for ten days. "Now" is less than a second.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMYeah to you; what's the difference between 1000 months and 999 months (1000 full moons) -- 1 month right?
Even 10000000 months spent in the darkness of ignorance is not better than one night of enlightnment.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMAlso, how do you know that particular scorching full moon happened in the night; what if it was during the day?
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ?
Jul 2, 2004 Full at 2:09 PM
Jun 22, 2005 Full at 7:14 AM
Jul 11, 2006 Full at 6:02 AM
Jun 30, 2007 Full at 4:49 PM
Jul 18, 2008 Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 12:22 PM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 2:31 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 9:40 AM
The scorching full-moon doesn't appear red except when it rises above the horizon after sunset. The "red moon" is an optical phenomenon, it is not just about the moon being full. It is about it also rising over the horizon and taking the lowest path which makes it appear more red than any other full-moon.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 06, 2008, 06:48:44 AMFull moon shortchanges every commandment by a month; a serious mistake and Ayman said so will be no excuse.
When you know what "month" means and when your arbitrary "month" starts then we can talk. Otherwise, it is useless to argue with someone who follows an arbitrary traditional calendar where all that his arbitrary Ramadan is based on is when arbitrary Shaaban occured and who is absolutely clueless about when the restriction period is and yet dares to accuse others of violating commandements.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
QuoteQuote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
1. If you map out the 29 G's involved in a sunset to sunset day and then include all of the sunrises connected to those sunsets, you get 30 Quranic/sunrise days. You need to add a T to the front of and the end of the following:
Why? Because the first G of the Islamic/Judaic day is naturally inside of the Quranic day that started at sunrise and ends at the next sunrise being T G T and not G T. The last G of the Islamic/Judaic day also belongs inside of the Quranic day that began the sunrise before it, and ends on sunrise the next day. Hence you should have T G T at the end, not T G. Therefore you cannot take those two T's out and be honest with this issue.
So it shoud be: T G T(1) G(1) T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T
And not what you have because, I will repeat, you are forgeting that the first G is inside of the first Quranic day that began at sunrise and the last G inside of the Quranic day that will end the following sunrise.
Quote
This is not based on the dictionary. What I gave are the 29 dictionary days which contain 28 "quranic" days. What you did was extend the dictionary days. If you had no preconception of 30 days and you simply looked up the meaning in the dictionary, then you wouldn't get 30 and you would get 28 sunrise to sunrise days within the dictionary's 29 days based on your theory. It is useless to reason with you.
Ayman, it is clear as day and all you can do is deny it. Fine, I explained it well enough for anyone to understand that this can also be understood by the dictionary. Accept if you will or deny if you will.
Quote
Quote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
From your words here I can now assume that you do understand what I am saying:
But you point out these six months as to make it seem too long a period. But what God says goes.
QuoteThe god doesn't say things without a reason. According to you the hunting restrictions have no purpose and effectively you have voided and annuled them.
You mean to say that God doesn't say things without your line of reasoing. I have voided and annulled nothing in the book. I am only complying with it. Our restrictions on hunting are personal during Ramadan, and only for our community during the 3 month period where the spring equinox falls in the middle of them. No arbitrariness. And we can never impose our beliefs on others. What you are proposing is like imposing the Shariah on non-Muslims. And how can you compare hunting restrictions to murder? Will you stop at nothing to justify your personal agenda? Do you also think that the pilgrimage is an obligation for all mankind that must be enforced as well? This is dangerous and completely unquranic. Laa ikraaha fee deeni. Don't ever forget that.
QuoteQuote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
So even if summer is 6 months, we can pick any 30 days during those 6 months to fast, whether that sits well with you or not is a personal issue. But up until now you have not proven that ramadan can't mean summer,
QuoteYou are contradicting yourself again. The word "ramadan" can't mean "summer" even per your mangled understanding. In case you haven't noticed, summer is longer than 30 days.
Right right. Ramadan = constant/intense heat. A time of constant/intense heat is a perfect equivalent to the natural phenomenon of summer. If you think that is a mangled understanding, well that is on you. And of course I have noticed that summer is longer than 30 days. Have you noticed that I've been saying for the past 5 + posts that we can chose 30 days DURING summer to fast? Remember, you called it arbitrary. And now you are acting like you don't understand the concept again. Wow, is all I have to say.
QuoteQuote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
nor have you proven that shahr cannot be 30 days.
QuoteIt can't mean 30 days, unless you invent your own meaning for the word "shahr" as you are doing and failing miserably at it, I might add. On the other hand, I don't have to cling to straws like you to invent anything, the meaning of full-moon is right there in the dictionary and it fits all the contexts in the great reading.
All it seems you can do to discuss your opinions is use strong language and try to bash me. These low blow tactics are nothing but vitriol. How can you say this meaning fits in all contexts of the Quran when you are having trouble explaining how God has created 13 full moons in a year, yet he has only counted 12 of them since the beginning of the heavens and the earth. You have not even addressed this issue. You just focus on the miniscule difference between 3adad and 3iddat, and still totally avoid that when we look at 3iddah as the act of counting in 9:36, why has God only been counting 12 full moons since he created the heavens and the earth, when he made 13 of them?
QuoteQuote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
You have only been twisting my words, repeating my points with opportune ommisions or denying what I've been saying in order to give the impression that you've dsproven these ideas. Denying and misconstruing do not equal disproving.
QuoteNo, disproving equals disproving except of course to the one who is clinging to straws and being disproved: you.
These are empty words, Ayman. Why did you waste your time writing this?
QuoteQuote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
I find it funny that you expect ny ideas to go along with your expectations and conclusions (almost as a requisite for being correct) about the ban on hunting. When fasting and when in the months for pilgrimage we are not to hunt, simple as that.
QuoteWhy? What is the purpose of the hunting restriction if according to you everyone can hunt whenever they want? They can delay their own personal hunting restriction if they feel like hunting this month. As I said, you have practically abrogated the hunting restriction.
You keep saying I abrogated the hunting restriction, when the only thing I've abrogated is your understanding of it.
QuoteYes, if you really have faith in what the god is telling you then we absolutely should ban hunting for everyone during the restriction period, in the same way that stealing and killing is banned on everyone.
Again this has dangerous and very unquranic implications. All I have to say is Laa ikraaha fee deeni.
QuoteDo you go hunting deer in rural PA outside of the hunting season and you tell the park rangers "I am a follower of Anwar's interpretation of the book and therefore you can't impose your hunting restrictions on me"?!!
What the heck do the man made laws of PA have to do with anything? We are talking about God's words not man made laws and restrictions. These man made hunting restrictions in actuality are changed from time to time as different environmental factors play on animal populations. Again these are man-made laws why are you trying to put man made laws into the Quran?
QuoteQuote from: progod on Yesterday at 04:28:14 AM
I don't think God uses 3adad and 3iddah haphazardly, rather I think you are exaggerating the differences in the meaning and usage of these two words to justify your ideas.
Quote
At least there is a difference and I am not making up completely baseless meanings and then working backwards to find any straw to hang to.
And neither am I, although you would love for others to think so. The Quran implies that a shahr in its context is 30 days. The dictionary defintion of 29 Islamic days when seen as Quranic days equals 30 days, and there are other Old Arabic sources which also imply these 30 days. So I didn't make this up, and the Quran does confirm this meaning. The problem with you and others as it concerns the Quranic implication is that you guys think the Quran is one big mathematical equation, and it is not. We can only take the passages that offer compensation for fasting into consideration when seeing this implication of a 30 day shahr. It is not an if A =B and B = C than A = C situation. Because this is more like a bartering that is going on between actions. In this bartering a daily fast can always be bartered for feeding 1 person, whereas feeding a person cannot be bartered for one daily fast. Obviously God doesn't accept the reverse of this. For instance the Quran says in the passage under discussion that we can either feed or clothe 10 people. But is clothing the same as feeding? Which do you think a person who needs food and clothing would need more in the moment? Food or clothes? And that is the point. We can't look at actions as if they were integers. It just doesn't work like that. Whether you want to understand that or not is your prerogative. But the fact that a daily fast can be bartered through feeding one person (chpt. 2) and we also see in the Quran that 2 shahr can be bartered through feeding 60, makes the conclusion more than obvious. Again, in every other passage that would seem to go against this, fasting cannot be bartered for anything. It is the very last option.
Also you still have not even addressed (and probably won't address) the real issue of 9:36 which is the fact that according to your preference for shahr God has been counting 12 full moons instead of the 13 that he created since he created the heavens and the earth. Don't you see the problem there?
As always . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
I think this conversation is starting to wind down. If it is, thank God. This useless back and forth is time consumnig and tiring. I hope someone is benefitting from it.
Peace Nun, eveyone,
I would just like to make a few comments, in addition to what has already been said by Ayman:
Quote from: NunAlso, how do you know that particular scorching full moon happened in the night; what if it was during the day?
I know it happened during the night because God says so and I have faith in al-quran, don't you?
44:3 We have sent it down in a blessed
night. Surely, We were to warn.
97:1 We have sent it down in the
night of decree.
2:185 The shahr/full-moon of scorching heat, in which the Qur?an was sent down.
Combine 44:3 and 97:1 with 2:185 and it becomes clear that the scorching full-moon when al-quran was descended occurred during night.
Quote from: NunNow tell us how you fast it "a full moon" which occurs for a minute?
The wording "
fast it" makes it clear that God is treating "shahr ramadhan" as a marker/event and not a time period. This marker/event has to be witnessed first and marks the onset of the fasting period. He then goes on to tell us how to fast it, by fasting from start of dawn to sunset, and then He tells us to complete the count, i.e. do the same for 10 days.
If "shahr" means "month", then 2:185 tells us to
witness a month first and then to
fast it. According to this wording, "month" has to be considered a marker/event to be witnessed first, and the fasting will start
after the month has been witnessed. The fasting could not be during the month, because if that was meant, the wording would be "when the month starts,
fast in it". How can we fast during a month when we have not even witnessed it first? Therefore, the fasting would be after the shahr and not during it.
Understanding "shahr" as "month" would imply that we have to witness the whole month first by witnessing all days of an arbitrary time period, and use the whole month as a marker to signal the onset of fasting, and then fasting will start after the month. The problem is that when we consider "month" as a marker (it cannot be a time period for fasting because it does not say "fast in it"), then what does a "month" mean according to al-quran and when exactly does the month start according to al-quran?
Shahr cannot be "month of 30 days" because of all the reasons already given in my previous post. I know that any educated person cannot agree with the nonsense that 29 sunset to sunset days are equivalent to 30 sunrise to sunrise days, because that is an obvious addition of one whole day. In addition to that, not once in his lengthy posts has Anwar told us how a day is sunrise to sunrise according to al-quran. That does not matter anyway because 29 sunset to sunset days can only be equivalent to 29 sunrise to sunrise days, or can contain 28 sunrise to sunrise days.
If we read Anwar's post above, he himself admits that:
Quote from: progodWe can't look at actions as if they were integers. It just doesn't work like that.
He then contradicts himself by trying to equate two actions by treating them like integers to fudge up a definition of shahr as "month of 30 days". This despite the fact that direct compensation for fasting has been mentioned only once in al-quran in 2:184. 58:3-4 is about compensations for estranging one's wife and 5:89 is about compensations for breaking oath. The alternative compensations given in these two places are equivalent for each case, and the order in which the compensations are mentioned makes no difference because they are all equivalent. This results in different ratios of fasting to feeding people from the two verses, which shows that there is no fixed formula in al-quran to determine that ratio.
He then arbitrarily starts the first restricted 30 day month at any time during the summer, and arbitrarily starts the remaining three restricted 30 day months at any time in a 9 month period. This makes the time of hunting restrictions completely arbitrary and up to the whims and desires of the people, thus making a mockery of God's commands at the highest level. He also rejects 9:2 which indicates that the four restricted shuhoor are consecutive, and not arbitrarily determined any time we wish.
Shahr cannot be a "lunar month" also because of all the contradictions and inconsistencies created in al-quran by this understanding.
It can only be "full-moon", and this meaning fits perfectly in every usage of the word "shahr" in al-quran and does not create any contradictions and inconsistencies.
Peace,
QuoteShahr cannot be "month of 30 days" because of all the reasons already given in my previous post. I know that any educated person cannot agree with the nonsense that 29 sunset to sunset days are equivalent to 30 sunrise to sunrise days, because that is an obvious addition of one whole day. In addition to that, not once in his lengthy posts has Anwar told us how a day is sunrise to sunrise according to al-quran. That does not matter anyway because 29 sunset to sunset days can only be equivalent to 29 sunrise to sunrise days, or can contain 28 sunrise to sunrise days.
You only think this because you refuse to see the logic of this, and i've explained enough times not to have to explain it again. Atleast you finally posted the only valid question to my conclusion which I challenged you and Ayman to ask a long time ago. And that is how a day is Quranically from sunrise to sunrise. Ayman didn't mention it because he agrees with this definition as well.
QuoteIf we read Anwar's post above, he himself admits that:
Quote from: progod
We can't look at actions as if they were integers. It just doesn't work like that.
QuoteHe then contradicts himself by trying to equate two actions by treating them like integers to fudge up a definition of shahr as "month of 30 days". This despite the fact that direct compensation for fasting has been mentioned only once in al-quran in 2:184. 58:3-4 is about compensations for estranging one's wife and 5:89 is about compensations for breaking oath. The alternative compensations given in these two places are equivalent for each case, and the order in which the compensations are mentioned makes no difference because they are all equivalent. This results in different ratios of fasting to feeding people from the two verses, which shows that there is no fixed formula in al-quran to determine that ratio.
Here again you refuse to understand that despite the original reason for fasting everytime in the Quran that fasting can be substituted/compensated it always equals feeding 1 person per daily fast missed. You continue to ignore this fact, and we can't look at actions in the Quran and their compensations like mathematical equations flipping values on either side of an equal sign. But we do have a consistent bartering rule in the quran where missing a fast can be compensated by feeding a person and that leads us to see that two shahr of fasting is equal to 60 days worth of fasting. But that is on you if yo don't want to see that.
QuoteHe then arbitrarily starts the first restricted 30 day month at any time during the summer, and arbitrarily starts the remaining three restricted 30 day months at any time in a 9 month period. This makes the time of hunting restrictions completely arbitrary and up to the whims and desires of the people, thus making a mockery of God's commands at the highest level. He also rejects 9:2 which indicates that the four restricted shuhoor are consecutive, and not arbitrarily determined any time we wish.
Buzz words again. Arbitrary, Arbitrary, Arbitrary. Get it all out. Anyway the point of Ramadan is accurate, despite your negative choice of words. The other 3 months are not arbitrary and you refuse to address the fact that they are not any time during a 9 month period. They are 90 days where the spring equiniox splits these days in equal parts, hence falling in both winter and spring per surah Al-Quraysh.
QuoteShahr cannot be a "lunar month" also because of all the contradictions and inconsistencies created in al-quran by this understanding.
Shahr can be a lunar month. But we are talking about in the context of the Quran and I don't see any inconsistencies for this meaning in the Quran. The only inconsistency is in accuracy of the lunar year itself.
QuoteIt can only be "full-moon", and this meaning fits perfectly in every usage of the word "shahr" in al-quran and does not create any contradictions and inconsistencies.
It can be more than full moon. But full moon does not fit into every usage of the Quran. That is under discussion now with other members on this forum. And it doesn't seem to be holding ground.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace everyone,
For all of the bystanders just taking this debate in, I personally see the argument for 'full moon' to be clear, consistent, simple, no need for fancy calculations and you all who support it have presented the case clearly, thoroughly and fully. I don't see that there is much more that can be said as evidence after taking the one definition of 'full moon' and applying it in ALL of the verses and related topics and everything agrees with itself, CONSISTENCY. If one does check every verse that uses 'shahr' and understands 'full moon' as the meaning, it fits in ALL of the verses. Anyone just coming in without any biased leaning towards 'month' and they just want the god's words with no additions nor subtractions, the case is clear for 'full moon' without having to ignore any issue nor using fancy long arguments that don't actually answer the issues of contradiction.
The one verse I questioned how to understand it pertaining to the wind of Sulaiman (34:12), no one has answered but that doesn't prove that full moon doesn't fit the context either. When one uses 'month' as the meaning, they have to insert the word 'journey' in the verse and the god knows the word for journey but HE didn't include it so those people need to fear the god.
Here are the verses using shahr and it's plural: in which ones does the meaning 'full moon' not fit?
2:184, 194, 217 5:2, 97 9:36 34:12 46:15 97:3 5:97 shahr
4:92 58:4 shahrain (dual)
2:197, 226, 234 9:5, 36 65:4 9:2 (plural)
Overall, debates like these are beneficial and healthy for those searching for the truth.
Umm Tariq
Accoding to 9:36 has God been counting 12 full moons instead of the 13 that he created since he created the heavens and the earth. Don't you see the problem there?
I want to note that this question is not an invitation to attack my conclusions on the issue. So if you feel tempted, resist. It will be obvious that you are just looking for a fight. I just want to see the logic that deals with the problem exemplified in the above question when we see shahr as full moon in the Quran's context.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace,
I also want to clarify:
I got this online:
QuoteA Full Moon occurs when the Moon is 100% illuminated, as seen from Earth. This happens each month when the Sun and Moon are exactly opposite each other in the sky. In other words, when the Moon is 180 degrees away from the Sun. Having stated that, you could say that a Full Moon only lasts for a minute because the Moon is constantly revolving around the Earth and just BEFORE it reaches that special point in its orbit - 180 degrees away from the Sun - it is 179.99 degrees away from the Sun and at that point it is not, technically speaking, 100% illuminated. Instead, it is 99.9999999% illuminated. If you want to be a stickler for details, that is not 100% illuminated and therefore it is not a Full Moon. Also, just moments AFTER the Moon reaches that special point in its orbit - 180 degrees away from the Sun - it is 180.01 degrees away from the Sun and at that point, once again, it is not, technically speaking, 100% illuminated. Instead, it is 99.9999999% illuminated.
It is not possible to discern the difference between a Moon that is 100% illuminated and one that is 99.9999999% illuminated. So, we would say that it is a Full Moon in both situations. However, there does come a point when an observer will notice that the Moon is not quite 100% illuminated. This point is different for different observers and is probably largely dependent on how much experience you have observing the Moon and how carefully you make your observations. I would like to think that most people would notice that when the Moon is 95% illuminated it no longer appears perfectly round and so it is no longer a Full Moon.
So, with this in mind, you may be interested to know how long it takes for the Moon to go from being 95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) to 100% illuminated (Full Moon) to 95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous). I will state times and dates for an observer located in Toronto and will use the most recent Full Moon as an example.
95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) 15 Jul 2008 9:00:00 PM (EDT)
100% illuminated (Full Moon) 18 Jul 2008 4:00:00 AM (EDT)
95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous) 20 Jul 2008 10:00:00 AM (EDT)
So, as you can see, it took 109 hours for the Moon to go from 95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) to 100% illuminated (Full Moon) to 95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous). Therefore, it would appear that we had a Full Moon on the nights of July 15/16, July 16/17, July 17/18, July 18/19, and July 19/20. That's five nights in a row! Although, the actual Full Moon occurred on the night of July 17/18, and to be more specific, it occurred at exactly 3:59 AM (EDT) on July 18.
So according to Ayman's theory when we site the full moon of Ramadan we fast all of the days following 95 percent illumination waxing to 95 percent illumination waning. I assume predertermiend calendars can be used for thse caculations on cloudy days, and there is pobably leeway for people to witness a full moon from their own perspective.
I still have an issue with Ramadan as red. But I want to clarify this above point in the theory. Thanks.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace everyone,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 07, 2008, 07:40:24 AM
Here are the verses using shahr and it's plural: in which ones does the meaning 'full moon' not fit?
2:184, 194, 217 5:2, 97 9:36 34:12 46:15 97:3 5:97 shahr
4:92 58:4 shahrain (dual)
2:197, 226, 234 9:5, 36 65:4 9:2 (plural)
ALL of them! They are not nonsensical.
Today is Oct 7. Take verses below and apply in real life...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2:234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (65:4)
A man accidently kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
Now apply the same events above a week later on Oct 14 which is a full moon date.
Then apply again a day later on Oct 15.
Please provide exact number of days so we can see how consistent and clear your interpretation is.
Thanks.
Peace Nun,
All of this has been addressed over and over again on this thread. If you have something of value to say then say it instead of repeating your mindless arguments. The only way for you to add value is to propose an alternative understanding of the timing and then compare side by side your proposed timing with others such as Anwar's and mine. When Anwar did this (after I had to put it for him in bold) it became immediately clear which timing is more in line with the great reading and reflects a better understanding. So either put out an alternative better understanding of the whole timing issue or if you are happy to stay with having no understanding then you are really in no position to criticise anything.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
A typical non answer to a simple question applied in real life.
You know all your timings will be different/inconsistent and depend on the date of the event.
At least answer the case of the event happening on Oct 14, 2008 or on day of a full moon...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2:234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (65:4)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
Tell your followers HOW MANY DAYS so they know exactly what to do.
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 07, 2008, 11:22:17 PMA typical non answer to a simple question applied in real life.
You know all your timings will be different/inconsistent and depend on the date of the event.
At least we know them while you don't know anything and this is why you are mindlessly criticizing and all your arguments are essentially fallacious arguments from ignorance. Again, if you disagree and think that you have any understanding then please tell everyone what your understanding of the timing is.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 07, 2008, 11:22:17 PMAt least answer the case of the event happening on Oct 14, 2008 or on day of a full moon...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2:234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (65:4)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
Tell your followers HOW MANY DAYS so they know exactly what to do.
This has already been answered many times on this thread. So first you answer:
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (2:228)Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Ayman instead of wasting your time by talking trash, please answer our questions clearly and without attitude. That would be the best way to shut us up. If what you say is true than you should be glad to repeat these same things over and over again until we get it. My advice is that after you repeat it forus here, you just copy and paste the response again if we're too bone-headed to get it. Thanks.
QuotePeace Nun,
All of this has been addressed over and over again on this thread. If you have something of value to say then say it instead of repeating your mindless arguments. The only way for you to add value is to propose an alternative understanding of the timing and then compare side by side your proposed timing with others such as Anwar's and mine. When Anwar did this (after I had to put it for him in bold) it became immediately clear which timing is more in line with the great reading and reflects a better understanding. So either put out an alternative better understanding of the whole timing issue or if you are happy to stay with having no understanding then you are really in no position to criticise anything.
Peace,
Ayman
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar, Nun, and everyone,
Anwar, how come you have never criticized on this thread the people here who are dogmatically pushing the traditional understanding or lack of understanding as in the case of Nun?
By the same token, Nun, why haven?t you criticized Anwar?s arbitrary 30 days in the summer timing of the fast and arbitrary four 30 days restriction period in summer, spring and winter?
As we can see on this thread, it is the best available understanding that is most menacing to dogmatic miscreants like those we have seen here pushing the traditional understanding or those with no understanding or those with arbitrary understanding. Therefore, they ignore each other because they don?t really take each other seriously and instead they throw their logical fallacies ad nauseam at the understanding that has real merit and thus poses real threat to their dogma. On the other hand, the best understanding has taken on and shattered ALL existing understandings. So thanks guys.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Unfortunately that was not an answer to Nun's questions or to mine. Saying that your understanding is the best and how come we don't criticize others is not exactly an answer to our questions. Did we ask you if your opinion was the best? No. Did we ask about others' traditional/dogmatic opinions here? Couldn't I claim the same thing about your fierce criticsim of my conclusions? I believe my questions are more fitting Quranically than yours, but that is not the point. So please don't try to turn that into an argument. I'm not criticizing your conclusion here or comparing them to mine, I just want some clarification. It hoenstly seems like you are trying to avoid our questons on purpose. Why? Because this is the second time we've asked you these straight up questions with no criticism at all of your conclusions. So please answer our questions. I'll quote them below. In your next reply I hope to see some straight up no nonsense answers to these specific questions.
Nun's question which she summarized for you:
QuoteAt least answer the case of the event happening on Oct 14, 2008 or on day of a full moon...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2:234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (65:4)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
Tell your followers HOW MANY DAYS so they know exactly what to do.
Peace
My first inquiry:
Quote
Peace,
I got this online (online info is in italics):
A Full Moon occurs when the Moon is 100% illuminated, as seen from Earth. This happens each month when the Sun and Moon are exactly opposite each other in the sky. In other words, when the Moon is 180 degrees away from the Sun. Having stated that, you could say that a Full Moon only lasts for a minute because the Moon is constantly revolving around the Earth and just BEFORE it reaches that special point in its orbit - 180 degrees away from the Sun - it is 179.99 degrees away from the Sun and at that point it is not, technically speaking, 100% illuminated. Instead, it is 99.9999999% illuminated. If you want to be a stickler for details, that is not 100% illuminated and therefore it is not a Full Moon. Also, just moments AFTER the Moon reaches that special point in its orbit - 180 degrees away from the Sun - it is 180.01 degrees away from the Sun and at that point, once again, it is not, technically speaking, 100% illuminated. Instead, it is 99.9999999% illuminated.
It is not possible to discern the difference between a Moon that is 100% illuminated and one that is 99.9999999% illuminated. So, we would say that it is a Full Moon in both situations. However, there does come a point when an observer will notice that the Moon is not quite 100% illuminated. This point is different for different observers and is probably largely dependent on how much experience you have observing the Moon and how carefully you make your observations. I would like to think that most people would notice that when the Moon is 95% illuminated it no longer appears perfectly round and so it is no longer a Full Moon.
So, with this in mind, you may be interested to know how long it takes for the Moon to go from being 95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) to 100% illuminated (Full Moon) to 95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous). I will state times and dates for an observer located in Toronto and will use the most recent Full Moon as an example.
95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) 15 Jul 2008 9:00:00 PM (EDT)
100% illuminated (Full Moon) 18 Jul 2008 4:00:00 AM (EDT)
95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous) 20 Jul 2008 10:00:00 AM (EDT)
So, as you can see, it took 109 hours for the Moon to go from 95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) to 100% illuminated (Full Moon) to 95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous). Therefore, it would appear that we had a Full Moon on the nights of July 15/16, July 16/17, July 17/18, July 18/19, and July 19/20. That's five nights in a row! Although, the actual Full Moon occurred on the night of July 17/18, and to be more specific, it occurred at exactly 3:59 AM (EDT) on July 18.
So according to Ayman's theory when we site the full moon of Ramadan we fast all of the days following 95 percent illumination waxing to 95 percent illumination waning. I assume predertermiend calendars can be used for thse caculations on cloudy days, and there is pobably leeway for people to witness a full moon from their own perspective (possibly beginning or ending the fast at 92% illumination or 94% for example).
I still have an issue with Ramadan as red. But I want to clarify this above point in the theory. Thanks.
My second inquiry:
Quote
Accoding to 9:36 has God been counting 12 full moons instead of the 13 that he created since he created the heavens and the earth. Don't you see the problem there?
I want to note that this question is not an invitation to attack my conclusions on the issue. So if you feel tempted, resist. It will be obvious that you are just looking for a fight. I just want to see the logic that deals with the problem exemplified in the above question when we see shahr as full moon in the Quran's context
These are quite simple. You should be able to quote our statements and give answers to them point by point. Please don't continue to dodge answering these questions as you are putting your integrity and the consistency of your conclusions in doubt. We just want to see how you have worked out some of the details so we can be more clear on what you believe. Isn't that fair?
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 04:01:42 PMUnfortunately that was not an answer to Nun's questions or to mine. Saying that your understanding is the best and how come we don't criticize others is not exactly an answer to our questions. Did we ask you if your opinion was the best? No. Did we ask about others' traditional/dogmatic opinions here? Couldn't I claim the same thing about your fierce criticsim of my conclusions? I believe my questions are more fitting Quranically than yours, but that is not the point. So please don't try to turn that into an argument. I'm not criticizing your conclusion here or comparing them to mine, I just want some clarification. It hoenstly seems like you are trying to avoid our questons on purpose. Why? Because this is the second time we've asked you these straight up questions with no criticism at all of your conclusions. So please answer our questions. I'll quote them below. In your next reply I hope to see some straight up no nonsense answers to these specific questions.
Nun's question which she summarized for you:
Listen Anwar, I don?t have time to spoon feed you the answers to questions that have been answered many times on this and other threads. Just use the search function of the forum. In fact, Nun has already answered the questions for himself here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597055.msg177151#msg177151
Finally, if you don?t have time to use the search function or read Nun?s own answer to his own questions then answer the following easy question and you will know the answer yourself:
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (2:228)Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 04:01:42 PMMy first inquiry:
I didn't see a question in your long copy and paste.
The scorching full-moon doesn't appear red except when it rises above the horizon after sunset. The "red moon" is an optical phenomenon, it is not just about the moon being full. It is about it also rising over the horizon and taking the lowest path which makes it appear more red than any other full-moon. You also ignore that the red color of this full moon and the fact that our brains are naturally wired to make it appear larger makes it easier to observe its symmetry than other white full moons (This is why warning lights are red or orange because bright white lights blind the observer). Just try to go out and observe the scorching full-moon for yourself the next time and verify things with your own eyes instead of your armchair quarterbacking. If anything, it will help you get some fresh air and get away from the city and get in touch with nature.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 04:01:42 PMMy second inquiry:
Accoding to 9:36 has God been counting 12 full moons instead of the 13 that he created since he created the heavens and the earth. Don't you see the problem there?
The only problem I see is your ignorance of what counting means as opposed to an absolute number. If an absolute number is meant then how many full-moons or Anwar 30-day months have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth? Billions.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 04:01:42 PMThese are quite simple. You should be able to quote our statements and give answers to them point by point. Please don't continue to dodge answering these questions as you are putting your integrity and the consistency of your conclusions in doubt. We just want to see how you have worked out some of the details so we can be more clear on what you believe. Isn't that fair?
OK fair enough. But next time use the search function first and then if you still can't find the answer ask nicely.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on October 08, 2008, 05:43:16 PM
Listen Anwar, I don?t have time to spoon feed you the answers to questions that have been answered many times on this and other threads. Just use the search function of the forum. In fact, Nun has already answered the questions for himself here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597055.msg177151#msg177151
Finally, if you don?t have time to use the search function or read Nun?s own answer to his own questions then answer the following easy question and you will know the answer yourself:
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (2:228)
Not so fast, I only agreed that full moon/menstrual cycle is a possibility for that verse and never realized at the time that the whole theory is inconsistent and breaks down if day of event is the actual full moon and full moon makes absolutely NO SENSE in other verses.
Now, don't run away and answer the questions pertaining to date of a full moon Oct 14, 2008
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2:234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (65:4)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
IF you cannot answer or are clueless how your theory is applied in practice and when to start counting then say so.
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 08, 2008, 06:12:21 PMNot so fast, I only agreed that full moon/menstrual cycle is a possibility for that verse and never realized at the time that the whole theory is inconsistent and breaks down if day of event is the actual full moon and full moon makes absolutely NO SENSE in other verses.
Now, don't run away and answer the questions pertaining to date of a full moon Oct 14, 2008
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2:234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (65:4)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
IF you cannot answer or are clueless how your theory is applied in practice and when to start counting then say so.
As I said, figure it yourself based on the answer to this question:
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (2:228)If you are not intelligent enough to answer the above question on your own then you have bigger problems to worry about and I doubt that spoon feeding you the answers will help.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman,
WTF? I'm uterrly perplexed by your response. Don't be rude, and don't ask me to sift through all those posts, search option or not, it has nothing to do with anything. Just answer the questions. What is your problem? You should be able to spit them out at the drop of a dime. Maybe I need to be spoon-fed. Ok, I admit, I want you to spoon-feed me, but it is for my edification. So what is the problem? Even if you have to spoon feed, I don't see that these questions are so difficult or complicated for that spoon-feeding to be bothersome for you. 2:228 firstly has to do with a woman waiting for 3 of her menstruations to pass befire being free to mary again. Now whereas I can admit that this answers the first 2 questions concerning a woman after divorce, or a woman after being widowed (problem solved there, because shahr is not the word used in these instances), it has nothing to do with full moons and it does not explain the following questions:
QuoteA man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226)
Secondly come my questions. Since I posted alot and you obviously did not want to read what I posted. Let me put it to you like this:
QUESTION 1:
Any full moon but in particular the full moon around the summer solstice (in your case the red full moon) lasts from atleast 95% illumination waxing to 95% illumination waning. Correct? So during your concept of Ramadan do we fast the days that follow these stages of the moon? Simple question. I have no clue why you started explaining the Red Moon and its psychological implications and how it is like a stoplight. Because that ceratinly was not my question.As for this comment:
QuoteJust try to go out and observe the scorching full-moon for yourself the next time and verify things with your own eyes instead of your armchair quarterbacking. If anything, it will help you get some fresh air and get away from the city and get in touch with nature.
I found this hilarious, although way off in left field. Although it does show your need to attack me no matter what. How do you know I'm not in the country-side right now? Or how do you know I'm not a fan of camping or that I don't go spend time in nature? As a matter of fact why are you making assumptions about my personal life when that has nothing to do with the topic? You don't have to answer those questions. They are rhetorical. Please, just answer the ones in bold.
QUESTION 2:
In 9:36, even following your very strict interpretation of 3iddah as counting (which I'm not saying is wrong, although a bit restrictive), God is counting. So why would he make 13 full moons and not count the 13th one that he made since he created the heavens and the earth?This was your answer:
QuoteThe only problem I see is your ignorance of what counting means as opposed to an absolute number. If an absolute number is meant then how many full-moons or Anwar 30-day months have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth? Billions.
Unfortunately this is not an answer but an attempt to attack me when I am not attacking you but rather asking your honest opinion on this issue. If billions of 30 day -shahr's have passed since the creation of the heavens and the earth why is that a problem? The whole point is that God created 12 and has been counting the ones that he created. When He starts ignoring the ones (in this case the 13th ones) he created that creates a logical problem.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Please don't be stubborn and drag this conversation into the ground. You can answer these questions in only 2 paragraphs if you wanted to. So please just answer these questions for God and goodness sake.
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 07:34:45 PMWTF? I'm uterrly perplexed by your response. Don't be rude, and don't ask me to sift through all those posts, search option or not, it has nothing to do with anything. Just answer the questions. What is your problem? You should be able to spit them out at the drop of a dime. Maybe I need to be spoon-fed. Ok, I admit, I want you to spoon-feed me, but it is for my edification. So what is the problem? Even if you have to spoon feed, I don't see that these questions are so difficult or complicated for that spoon-feeding to be bothersome for you. 2:228 firstly has to do with a woman waiting for 3 of her menstruations to pass befire being free to mary again. Now whereas I can admit that this answers the first 2 questions concerning a woman after divorce, or a woman after being widowed (problem solved there, because shahr is not the word used in these instances), it has nothing to do with full moons and it does not explain the following questions:
Great. So you see how easy this was and you were able to answer most of the questions on your own by answering 2:228 and seeing that the way we count time periods based on menstruations is the same way we count time periods based full-moons: we count them based on events. If you search the forum on "full-moon" and "menstruation" you will see this answer repeated at least tens of times.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92) The days between two full-moons.
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226) The days until four full-moons pass.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 07:34:45 PMSecondly come my questions. Since I posted alot and you obviously did not want to read what I posted. Let me put it to you like this:
QUESTION 1:
Any full moon but in particular the full moon around the summer solstice (in your case the red full moon) lasts from atleast 95% illumination waxing to 95% illumination waning. Correct?
No. The actual full-moon lasts only one second and it may not even be above the horizon or during the night so you may not even see it at all.
This is why I said that we are concerned about the optical phenomenon of the symmetric red full-moon that can only take place at night after the moon rises. When an ancient Arabs said "I saw the scorching full-moon" he didn't mean the astronomical full-moon obtained by calculations but is below the horizon. He meant the full-moon that he saw taking the lowest path accross the horizon and appearing red and bigger to him. It appears red for the same reason that sunsets appear red, light diffraction in low altitudes. It is thus much easier to make out in terms of symmetry than the other full-moons. Therefore, 95% illumination will be immediately apparent as not the "scorching full-moon" and the correct one will be easy to witness. This is why in Chapter 84, we are told in 84:16-18 about the red color (due to light diffraction), the night, and the moon when it becomes perfectly symmetric.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 07:34:45 PMSo during your concept of Ramadan do we fast the days that follow these stages of the moon?
Yes and I have given the nights where the scorching full-moon was or is to be observed from 2005-2010 in one of the above posts. It is not the 95% illuminated one as I explained above.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 07:34:45 PMSimple question. I have no clue why you started explaining the Red Moon and its psychological implications and how it is like a stoplight. Because that ceratinly was not my question.
Because it is about how the full-moon appeared to ancient arabs. It is not about going on a web site and downloading a calendar of the moon calculations and copying and pasting it.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 07:34:45 PMAs for this comment:
I found this hilarious, although way off in left field. Although it does show your need to attack me no matter what. How do you know I'm not in the country-side right now? Or how do you know I'm not a fan of camping or that I don't go spend time in nature? As a matter of fact why are you making assumptions about my personal life when that has nothing to do with the topic? You don't have to answer those questions. They are rhetorical.
Good for you. So you have no excuse not to witness the scorching full-moon the next time around and verify things with your own eyes.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 07:34:45 PMPlease, just answer the ones in bold.
QUESTION 2:
In 9:36, even following your very strict interpretation of 3iddah as counting (which I'm not saying is wrong, although a bit restrictive), God is counting. So why would he make 13 full moons and not count the 13th one that he made since he created the heavens and the earth?
This was your answer:
Unfortunately this is not an answer but an attempt to attack me when I am not attacking you but rather asking your honest opinion on this issue. If billions of 30 day -shahr's have passed since the creation of the heavens and the earth why is that a problem? The whole point is that God created 12 and has been counting the ones that he created. When He starts ignoring the ones (in this case the 13th ones) he created that creates a logical problem.
The god didn't create 12 or 13 moons. There is only one moon and this is in how we count a property of the moon not the actual moon. The problem is that the absolute number as you acknowledge above is in the billions. So this cannot be what is talked about and indeed this confirms that there is a difference between an absolute number and the act of counting. Counting by definition is counting out of a certain set or population. So when we are told to count 12, it doesn't matter if we are counting out of the population of billions or 13. We are to count 12 this is all. Also, in counting we need to know the set that we are counting out of. In this case, the set is clearly the total population of full-moons in a year. This will mostly be twelve but about every three years will be 13 but we always count 12 and skip the 13th. This is the only fool proof and perfect way to have lunar divisions within a solar year while automatically maintaining the seasons in sync. If you have a better way then share it. Your way completely ignores the lunar cycle and is not as elelgant and automated as this.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
QuoteGreat. So you see how easy this was and you were able to answer most of the questions on your own by answering 2:228 and seeing that the way we count time periods based on menstruations is the same way we count time periods based full-moons: we count them based on events. If you search the forum on "full-moon" and "menstruation" you will see this answer repeated at least tens of times.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92) The days between two full-moons.
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226) The days until four full-moon pass
Listen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
QuoteNo. The actual full-moon lasts only one second and it may not even be above the horizon or during the night so you may not even see it at all.
This is why I said that we are concerned about the optical phenomenon of the symmetric red full-moon that can only take place at night after the moon rises. When an ancient Arabs said "I saw the scorching full-moon" he didn't mean the astronomical full-moon obtained by calculations but is below the horizon. He meant the full-moon that he saw taking the lowest path accross the horizon and appearing red and bigger to him. It appears red for the same reason that sunsets appear red, light diffraction in low altitudes. It is thus much easier to make out in terms of symmetry than the other full-moons. Therefore, 95% illumination will be immediately apparent as not the "scorching full-moon" and the correct one will be easy to witness. This is why in Chapter 84, we are told in 84:16-18 about the red color (due to light diffraction), the night, and the moon when it becomes perfectly symmetric.
I know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
QuoteThe god didn't create 12 or 13 moons. There is only one moon and this is in how we count a property of the moon not the actual moon. The problem is that the absolute number as you acknowledge above is in the billions. So this cannot be what is talked about and indeed this confirms that there is a difference between an absolute number and the act of counting. Counting by definition is counting out of a certain set or population. So when we are told to count 12, it doesn't matter if we are counting out of the population of billions or 13. We are to count 12 this is all. Also, in counting we need to know the set that we are counting out of. In this case, the set is clearly the total population of full-moons in a year. This will mostly be twelve but about every three years will be 13 but we always count 12 and skip the 13th. This is the only fool proof and perfect way to have lunar divisions within a solar year while automatically maintaining the seasons in sync. If you have a better way then share it. Your way completely ignores the lunar cycle and is not as elelgant and automated as this.
Are you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 9:36 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 9:36 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon:
9:36
Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. [That is] in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. [That is] the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلاَ تَظْلِمُواْ فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَآفَّةً وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ (9:36)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 9:36 we can discuss:
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Ayman,
You did not answer if you count or not the full moon of the date of the event.
Quote from: ayman on October 08, 2008, 08:58:08 PM
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (4:92) The days between two full-moons.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 daysQuran says to fast 2 months!
Quote from: ayman on October 08, 2008, 08:58:08 PM
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2:226) The days until four full-moons pass.
IF date of event is day before a full moon
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 days IF date of event is day after full moon
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 daysINCONSISTENT!
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Quran says he must fast 4 months!
41:20 Until when they came to it! Their hearing, and their eye sights/understanding, and their skins testified/witnessed on them because what they were making/doing.
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 08, 2008, 10:50:58 PMYou did not answer if you count or not the full moon of the date of the event.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
Quran says to fast 2 months!
I thought that you were asking to find out what the great reading says. If you already know then why ask? As I said, just tell us what your timing is for the fast and the restriction and we can compare it to what I have and what Anwar is proposing and see which understanding is best.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 08, 2008, 10:50:58 PMIF date of event is day before a full moon
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 days
IF date of event is day after full moon
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days
INCONSISTENT!
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Same as per 2:228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations:
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 daysWow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 08, 2008, 10:50:58 PMQuran says he must fast 4 months!
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMListen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
Good, I am glad this issue is behind us.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMI know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 84:18. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMAre you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 9:36 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 9:36 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon:
9:36 Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. [That is] in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. [That is] the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلاَ تَظْلِمُواْ فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَآفَّةً وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ (9:36)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 9:36 we can discuss: Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.
Where does it say in 9:36 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra")? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on October 08, 2008, 11:01:46 PM
Same as per 2:228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations:
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days
IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 days
Wow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.
Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2:228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
Quote
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Yes I do not know every thing the Quran says.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
I know the length of a day is dawn to sunset; a night sunset to dawn.
I know the length of a year encompasses a number of days and nights.
1 year = 365.242199 days
I know that shahr is a period of time and still do not know the length of this time.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
1 solar month = 30.4368499 days
As you can see they never exactly equate else what is .242199 days?
A calendar such as the Egyptian 12 x 30 day months and 360 days/year seems plausible or something similar to it which sync up every 19 lunar/solar years perhaps.
Finally, I am not too proud to say I do not know exactly this timing/calendar and researching.
Peace
Peace all,
I agree as well that all of the insults and talking down can and should stop. None of this is PERSONAL. If the god tells us that we should argue/ debate with the people of the book in a way that is better 'ahsan' then that's what we should definitely do with each other. If we get personal about discussing opinions about the great reading then maybe if we are on the truth and correct understanding we would turn away others from it just because of our behavior, that's not acceptable. Didn't the god say to His prophet: 'So it is by a mercy from the god that you were lenient for them and if you were stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from around you. So pardon them and forgive them and consult them in the affair..' 3:159 I'm just giving this as a reminder, verily the reminder benefits the believers.
To Nun,
Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2:228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
We never said that the word 'shahr' is in 2:228 and we know that it isn't. What we were comparing, to aid in coming to the correct conclusion about the meaning of 'shahr', is that the menstrual cycle is also used as a MARKER to start and stop a time period JUST LIKE a 'full moon' can be used. The topic is the same, divorce. If we were talking only about divorce right now and we bring all of the verses, we will have this one and 65:4. One mentions counting an iddah by menstrual cycles and one mentions counting an iddah by 'shahr'. I believe in the consistency of the god's words and that He has a good reason to choose the words He does to express His laws. If someone doesn't believe that the god's words are consistent then they will never see this connection.
So when we want to check how does this counting work this is where it will start (in the minimum case):
A menstruating woman (2:228) is divorced and her cycle begins the next day, she waits (counting 3 cycles): 2 months minimum
A non-menstruating woman (65:4) is divorced and the 'full moon' is sighted the next day, she waits (counting 3 full moons): 2 months minimum
I must add this here before continuing: the similarity between menstrual cycle and full moon is that CLEARLY they are markers. The menstrual cycle itself only lasts about 3-7 or 10 days and the full moon is sighted in a night, NEITHER will be present for the whole time that the woman in either case waits. I mentioned this before. If someone can understand AUTOMATICALLY that the menstrual cycle is being used as a marker then how can one not understand that the full moon is being used as a marker as well, to start and stop a time period?
This is why we are using these verses as well, pertaining to divorce, it's the god who chose to use these words to help us understand what is correctly meant by 'shahr' in the reading. Do we think that the god doesn't know that there are several meanings out there for shahr? That He wouldn't for His sincere servants then give them clues from His words which meaning He means?
With that said, if we now look at, in the minimum case, a woman from 65:4 and we take 'shahr' to mean 'month' we get: she's divorced and the next new month begins the next day (she counts 3 months) she waits; 3 MONTHS minimum
Can everyone see the discrepancy here created by using 'month'? That's why the question was asked why would there be this discrepancy in the god's book if He intended shahr to mean 'month'? Why should the women of 65:4 automatically in the minimum case wait longer than those with a menstrual cycle? Can you tell me that we cannot use verse 2:228 when the topic of divorce is the same? Why should I choose a meaning that creates this kind of discrepancy in the first place when full moon is an accepted meaning of the word shahr and keeps the verses consistent?
If anyone would have a bias towards 'month' it would be me, I was hard core salafi for 14 years but after the god showed me the truth then that's all that I want, that's all I ever wanted. I never knew until lately that 'shahr' can mean full moon and once I found out it automatically made verse 2:185 make sense to me. With the word month, 'witnessing a month' makes no sense nor do I like that the words (new cresent of) are added in such translations. But this is me. However, as I continuing studying and the issue of fasting is being discussed and the core debate is about whether shahr should be full moon or month, I see arguments like the one above and that supports full moon to me, because I believe the god is consistent in His words.
We are not comparing a man's fasting of '4 months' to a menstrual cycle, we are saying that once we are convinced, by verses like 2:185, 2:228 that shahr means full moon and that works in all of the verses it's used in, we are saying that he counts '4 full moons' the full moons are markers again, and his wait in the minimum case would be 3 months as we call that time period in between. It could be any name we give it really but the actual waiting is the same and it's whatever time period falls in between those 4 full moons. If anyone has a problem with 'in between' then you have problem with 'in between' menstrual cycles and what will you do then???
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2:228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 65:4 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 9:36 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
To Anwar,
Can you please explain how do you understand verse 9:37 about the 'naseey'? This to me is also a strong refutation against shahr being 'month' when we take these two verses together.
Umm Tariq
Peace all,
I would also like to set straight a dangerous trend by some. Just because I or anyone else agrees with 'shahr' being full moon doesn't mean we become Ayman's FOLLOWERS. I don't even know Ayman I only know him by his words, I've read many of his articles and also Layth's and many others. What's important to me is the strength of someone's position based on the reading NOT personalities. I may not even like Ayman in person but that doesn't take away from the strength of many of his positions for which I agree with some and I disagree with others. For example, I disagree with as-salat meaning 'learning connection' but he nonetheless presented a strong case and I respect that. So since I don't agree with him here, can I still be considered HIS FOLLOWER?
Even if I did agree, I am only trying to follow the god's commands, some of us will agree on some things and disagree on others we DO NOT become each other's FOLLOWERS for doing so. Just bring the facts. We all agree that pork is haraam to eat are we EACH OTHER'S FOLLOWERS for that or is that following the god's words and how clear they are?
PLEASE STOP all of the personal attacks and just stick to the facts. The truth is clear from falsehood.
Sincerely,
Umm Tariq
Peace
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 09, 2008, 05:35:48 AM
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2:228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 65:4 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 9:36 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
No, we only get different counts when using full moon not month.
A month, day, year, etc., is a standard unit of time between TWO events not ONE event.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
* Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months
* Widows wait 4 months and ten days
* Men who take vows fast 4 months
* Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months
* Travel the earth 4 months
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
There is no contradiction unless telling someone...
If on date, fast 88 days else if on different date, fast 118 days
The # of days to fast is constant NOTHING to do with women?s menses (variable).
The next full moon is exactly October 14, 2008 4:04 P.M.
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
If all above shahr events happen on that day -- what then, count it or not if before/after 4pm?
Peace,
QuoteSame man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Quran says he must fast 4 months
!
Nun, you are right that it is seems inconsistent that the fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on the date of the vow. But that is how Ayman and a few others here see God commanding it. So there is no point in arguing. In their minds it depends on the full moon and if the days vary, the days vary. Forcing this issue becomes beating a dead horse, almost like how I've shown that 365 days has 12 30 day-shahrs in it and 5 or 6 days doesn't count as a shahr in any way shape or form, but it has been repeated to me over and over again that God would have counted the fraction which is insignifiant to the the count of 30 day periods. So now you see their opinion, I would just let it go. I know it seems inconsistent but they have their reason for allowing this inconsistency based on how they interpret the word shahr. As for if the vow is taken on a full moon, I guess they count that full moon.
Ayman,
Quote
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 84:18. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
What was this for? I still dont believe that Ramadan has anything to do with the color red. So there's no need to encourage me to go out and see this red full moon as if that is going to convince me about your conclusion on the subject.
QuoteWhere does it say in 9:36 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra")? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
It seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 9:36? No. But just as it is obvious that God created everything I don't think he has to tell us that he created certain years with 13 full moons in them. So if he created certain years with 13 full moons in them why is He only counting 12 of them in these years? I don't know why you are trying to explain the concept of counting to me, when I am accepting the sole definition of counting for 3iddah in the context of 9:36 for the sake of meeting your on common ground when it comes to this verse.
The whole point here is that God is not telling us to count 12 full moons in that verse. In 9:36 GOD is counting 12 full moons each year despite the 13 full moons that he created (it is obvious that he created this natural occurrence of 13 full moons) some years. According to 9:36 he has been doing this since he created the heavens and the earth. So my question is, if we see it your way why is GOD counting 12 full moons each year when he created some years with a natural occurence of 13 full moons? Why is he not counting what he created? Is this a hard question? Why do you keep making it an issue of humans counting when there is no command in that passage, and it is God who is apparently not counting what he created, according to your understanding.
I even quoted the verse for you and all to see.
Please stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . . counting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 9:36 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 9:36 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMIt seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 9:36? No.
Here is what you said:
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMAnd you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons
Here is what I replied:
Quote from: ayman on October 08, 2008, 11:22:49 PMWhere does it say in 9:36 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra")?
So you are essentially asking me to explain ?how God created 13 full moons? and then when I do exactly as you asked and explain that in fact he didn?t you get all angry with me! Please stop wasting everyone?s time by being so defensive without reading your own posts.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMPlease stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . .
Just because you don?t understand some things, it doesn?t mean that they have nothing to do with anything. . . If you really think they have nothing to do with anything then just ignore them and stop asking me about them in the same way that I have been ignoring many of your irrelevant remarks (in this post and prior posts) so that the discussion can move on for the benefit of the reader.
Quote from: progod on October 08, 2008, 09:58:16 PMcounting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 9:36 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 9:36 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Counting is about counting out of a population or a set. You seem to be trying to invent your own Anwar definition of the concept of counting so that you can turn it again into an absolute number. So after admitting above that ?3iddah? meaning ?count? is not wrong, you go back to square one and equate the concept with an absolute number, which is the wrong position that you started with in the first place. You keep going in circles saying that 9:36 is talking about an absolute number while the god is telling us that it is just a count. Moreover, when we count like the god has set the count and as per the clear meaning of count (counting out of a population or set), the lunar cycle is automatically synchronized with the solar cycle and we accomplish the purpose of 9:36-37. If you read carefully the entire passage of 9:36-37, then you will see that the whole context of counting 12 (out of 12 or 13) is about not violating the hunting restrictions. I hope I am clear and please don?t ask me any more questions that assume equating count with an absolute number.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Ayman please be serious and answer the question. You are being very disingenuious here.
Here's the question again. I will limit my commentary so that you can answer this question which you have not answered:
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 9:36? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace everyone,
Let me rephrase the same idea in another way which might help everyone, including progod, to understand the concept better.
Suppose God had said "The count of the full-moons with God is thirteen full-moons", then it would have meant that we should be able to count 13 full-moons in every solar year, which is impossible and would have falsified al-quran. The second interpretation could have been that the year is lunar and the count of full-moons in that lunar year is always 13 full-moons, which would have contradicted 17:12 and would have caused the restricted full-moons and therefore the period of hunting restriction to be out of sync with the seasons. This would have nullified the whole purpose of hunting restriction. The hunting restriction makes sense only if it is always in a certain season because the breeding season of wild animals is always in the same season in the specific hemisphere.
As you can see, the count of full-moons with God could not be 13 full-moons because of the above reasons. However, if we always count only 12 full-moons in every solar year (which we will always be able to do), and do not count the 13th full-moon when it occurs, then:
1 - There will be no contradictions in al-quran;
2 - The seasons will always be in sync with the respective full-moons, and the four restricted full-moons will always fall in the same season every year;
3 - The period of hunting restriction will always remain the same.
Therefore, God does not count 13 full-moons but counts 12 full-moons.
Peace Truthseeker,
Thank you for rephrasing the clear answer and making it even more clear.
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 09, 2008, 07:12:33 PMIf God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 9:36? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.
Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Peace,
Ayman
It's really sad , when I find Gems like Brother Anwar go bonkers.
siki
Peace Nun,
You didn't understand what I meant at all. I meant, if you use full moon in these respective verses you get one count and if THEN use month in these respective verses you get another count. In the minimum case, they do not EQUAL. I showed that in my previous post if you read the whole thing. Do you understand now what I was talking about? That's all.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
* Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months...wait 3 full moons = 2 months (in the minimum)
* Widows wait 4 months and ten days... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
* Men who take vows fast 4 months... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
* Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months... wait 2 full moons = 1 month (in the minimum)
* Travel the earth 4 months...travel for 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I have tackled your concept of month in all honesty but you seem to refuse to do that with full moon to really show it's inconsistency. The one time you tried you failed because the consistency of full moon automatically showed itself. We are going in circles here and so it seems that there is not much more to discuss.
Umm Tariq
Ayman,
QuoteLet's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
Let me start by repeating the fact that 9:36 is a statement about God's count of the shahr and NOT a command on how we are to count shahr.
So for the sake of the conversation, I'll agree with that defintion of count. If we are counting we've got to be counting something. But let me remind all that a count can be a 1-1 relationship, like 12 out of 12 or 13 out of 13. But let's keep going.
Quote
If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
I'll give you a general yes here. But I see that you are setting up these questions without recognizing that God is doing the counting in 9:36, not us.
Quote
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
Yes.
QuoteIf YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
To make this relevant to 9:36 (which everyone needs to read), if God is choosing to count 12 out of 13 than yes. But this is the problem. Why is God only counting 12 full moons in the years that he created 13 full moons?
QuoteIf you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Lol. This is hilarious. All your questions were preconditioned that a human being is doing the counting and that 9:36 is a command to only count 12 shahr. I have been saying from the beginning that in 9:36 God is doing the counting and that this is not a command. Your whole theory is premised upon whether 9:36 is a command to the believers. But 9:36 is not a command to the believers. "The count of months with God" is explicitly saying that God has been doing the counting, not us. So why do you keep trying to phrase this in the context of human beings doing the counting? I understand that human beings can count only 12 out of a set of 13, and I understand that if God told us to do that then we are to do that. But God did not tell us to do that and 9:36 does not tell us to do that. 9:36 is explaining how GOD has been counting the shahr. So my question still goes unanswered. If God created some years with 13 full moons why has GOD been ingorning the 13th full moons he created during some years and couting only 12 when he created these 13 full moons in the first place?
Please do not repeat again that humans can easily count 12 full moons out of a set of 13. Because that is not the answer to my question. 9:36 is not a command for people to count anything. It is a statement about how God counts the shahr. So if God made certain years with 13 full-moons why has HE been ignoring the full-moons HE created in the first place to maintain the count as 12 full moons?
This is about the logic behind God's actions in 9:36. My question has nothing to do with human actions. It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
So please answer my question and stop dwelling on the defintion of count or the ability of people to count 12 out of 13 when told to. That is not what I'm having problems with. I'm having problems meshing your conclusions with God's statement that he has been counting 12 full-moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth when at the same time he created the heavens and the earth he also created certain years with 13 full moons. Why would he create something only to ignore it? That would imply that God has been ignoring a phenomenon that he created in the first place since the beginning. And why would he do that? That doesn't make much sense.
To answer my question please focus on the quran's statement of God's actions in 9:36 not human actions.
Godbless,
Anwar
And siki, thanks for the gem comment, but no thanks for the bonkers comment. Maybe you should read my posts and try to understand what I'm saying. I assure you I am not going bonkers and this is a valid question that you and others should pay attention to.
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 10, 2008, 10:07:07 AMIt seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
There are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 9:36 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 9:36 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 9:36 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 9:36-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Umm,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 10, 2008, 04:36:00 AM
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I am not confusing the issue and do understand. It is you who is confused by the full moon.
1. SHAHR IS NOT USED IN THE VERSE
2. A MARKER IS NOT TIME
3. TIME REQUIRES TWO MARKERS
Non menstruating women are different from menstruating women who are not consistent moon clocks.
Menstruating women vary and can have 3 menses in 6 weeks or in 6 months.
The average cycle length is about 28 days.
Non menstruating women (again different category) wait 3 x 28 day average cycles or about 3 months.
Again,
2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four months...
The same man, the same vow, has ZERO to do with menstruating women.
The same man cannot be asked to wait on one date...
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysThe same man cannot be asked to wait on another date...
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days58:4 ... And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other. And for him who is unable to do so, he should feed sixty of Miskeen (poor).
That is 2 months successive NOT 2 full moons or 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
2 months fasting or feeding 60 poor people or 1 person per each day.
Full moon makes NO logical sense, is INCONSISTENT, is NOT following Quran and shortchanges every verse by 1 month.
Peace
Ayman,
This debauchery and grand fraud on your part has gone on for too long. I ask a question and you speak about things that have nothing to do with my questions. Getting into the mind of God? You know it makes no sense for God himself to create some years with 13 full moons and for HIM to have not been counting those 13 full-moons since he created them. It makes no sense for God to create 13 full moons in a set some years but to only have been counting 12 of them since the day he created the heavens and the earth. The question of why would God create something and then ignore it is a valid queston that you have absolutely no answer to. Ifs, woulds? Is that how you try to make me sound unsure or hypothetical? You are a grand deciever and if anyone here believes you I fear for their salvation. You are false beyond belief and will say anything to distract readers from the main issue at hand, which you always seem to dodge. I have concluded that everything that you have said about shahr Ramadan and the count of shahr in a year is your innovation and a grand lie. This is a great shame to all Quranists everywhere.
I just want to clarify to everyone here that this question has nothing to do with hunting restrictions or getting into God's mind. Nor does it have to do with the definiton of count. The question is clearly that:
9:36 says that God has been couting 12 months each year since he created the heavens and the earth. So why in the world would God be ignoring the natural occurance of a 13th full-moon that he created in the first place?
Valid question? Of course. Can Ayman answer it? Obviously not.
I don't believe that God creates things only to ignore them himself after the moment he creates them. That is falsehood beyond belief. Say what you want Ayman. Go ahead and attack my ideas to distract from the question. Do what you like but your falsehood and intellectual dishonesty has been blatantly obvious here. Anyone that has questions about my conclusions can contact me. I urge you to trust nothing Ayman says about my opinions on the subject. As well ask him about his opinions. If you ask enough questions, especially concerning 9:36 you will get your answer.
QuoteThere are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 9:36 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 9:36 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 9:36 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 9:36-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Nun,
You know what, I see that you refuse to read what I wrote. The issue is clear, I am convinced, by the strength of the argument based on the god's words, that shahr is full moon and you, it seems, can't prove otherwise so you just ignore all that I write and just repeat your stance, not very helpful nor convincing. Nevermind.
To all who are trying, false words and arguments will not detract from the truth.
Umm Tariq
Peace,
With all due respect, Nun I think you have been beating a dead horse here. And i disagree with the shahr as full moon camp as much as you do, although for different reasons so don't get me wrong. You don't like the incosistency of the count and that is understandable but I think as it concerns how many shahr must pass in these different requirements by God to wait or to fast I think the shahr as full moon camp has been clear. I don't believe that shahr means full-moon in the Quranic context either but the inconsistency in the actual time of waiting when it concerns waiting for full moons to pass has been fully and repeatedly explained. Arguing on the basis of this inconsistency (which obviously can vary inconsistently from 88-118 days for the same offense) is pointless. Nun, I don't think Umm Tariq is being unreasonable here. That incosistency of time is consistent with 'the shahr as full moon' idea so there is no point in continuing to argue that. I hope I am not turning you into an enemy, but i don't think they can say it any more clearer. If you want to continue to challenge this belief I think you'll have to do it using another aspect or ramification of this idea. Because you are just arguing something that they already know, have already admitted and that fits with the way they view this issue. There is no Quranic or logical inconsistency with THIS APSECT in the context of the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' idea.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 10, 2008, 12:11:34 PM
Peace Umm,
I am not confusing the issue and do understand. It is you who is confused by the full moon.
1. SHAHR IS NOT USED IN THE VERSE
2. A MARKER IS NOT TIME
3. TIME REQUIRES TWO MARKERS
Non menstruating women are different from menstruating women who are not consistent moon clocks.
Menstruating women vary and can have 3 menses in 6 weeks or in 6 months.
The average cycle length is about 28 days.
Non menstruating women (again different category) wait 3 x 28 day average cycles or about 3 months.
Again,
2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four months...
The same man, the same vow, has ZERO to do with menstruating women.
The same man cannot be asked to wait on one date...
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 days
The same man cannot be asked to wait on another date...
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days
58:4 ... And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other. And for him who is unable to do so, he should feed sixty of Miskeen (poor).
That is 2 months successive NOT 2 full moons or 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
2 months fasting or feeding 60 poor people or 1 person per each day.
Full moon makes NO logical sense, is INCONSISTENT, is NOT following Quran and shortchanges every verse by 1 month.
Peace
Peace Brother,
God's Signs are very clear, but only Him who can make people to see it or not.
You only can deliver the Message, so you can be Witness in the Judgment Day agniset them.
Have Fun :)
May God increase your wisdom and protact you From getting Lost from the Straight Path.
:peace:
Salam,
According to the OT and the Quran: There has always been only 12 months in a year. This is a fact.
The Hebrews and the phoenicians had no word for that specifically meant month. They used the word "moon."
In the Old Testament the moon was used for the computation of time:
Gen 1:14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
Gen 29:14 And Laban said to him: 'Surely thou art my bone and my flesh.' And he abode with him the space of a month (literally says in Hebrew days of the moon)
1Sa 6:1 And the ark of the LORD was in the country of the Philistines seven months.
The beginning of the month was generally decided by the observation of the new moon and was generally a celebrated occassion.
Num 10:10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your appointed seasons, and in your new moons, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace-offerings; and they shall be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.'
Num 28:11 And in your new moons ye shall present a burnt-offering unto the LORD: two young bullocks, and one ram, seven he-lambs of the first year without blemish;
Num 28:12 and three tenth parts of an ephah of fine flour for a meal-offering, mingled with oil, for each bullock; and two tenth parts of fine flour for a meal-offering, mingled with oil, for the one ram;
Num 28:13 and a several tenth part of fine flour mingled with oil for a meal-offering unto every lamb; for a burnt-offering of a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Num 28:14 And their drink-offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bullock, and the third part of a hin for the ram, and the fourth part of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt-offering of every new moon throughout the months of the year.
Psa 81:3 (81:4) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day.
There were 12 months in a year.
There are only Twelve months in the Old Testament:
1Ki 4:7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, who provided victuals for the king and his household: each man had to make provision for a month in the year.
1Ch 27:1 Now the children of Israel after their number, to wit, the heads of fathers' houses and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and their officers that served the king, in any matter of the courses which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year, of every course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:2 Over the first course for the first month was Jashobeam the son of Zabdiel; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:3 Of the children of Perez was he, and the chief of all the captains of the host for the first month.
1Ch 27:4 And over the course of the second month was Dodai the Ahohite, and his course, and Mikloth the ruler; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:5 The third captain of the host for the third month was Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the priest, chief; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:6 This is that Benaiah, who was the mighty man of the thirty, and over the thirty; and of his course was Ammizabad his son.
1Ch 27:7 The fourth captain for the fourth month was Asahel the brother of Joab, and Zebadiah his son after him; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:8 The fifth captain for the fifth month was Shamhuth the Izrahite; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:9 The sixth captain for the sixth month was Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:10 The seventh captain for the seventh month was Helez the Pelonite, of the children of Ephraim; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:11 The eighth captain for the eighth month was Sibbecai the Hushathite, of the Zerahites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:12 The ninth captain for the ninth month was Abiezer the Anathothite, of the Benjamites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:13 The tenth captain for the tenth month was Mahrai, the Netophathite, of the Zerahites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:14 The eleventh captain for the eleventh month was Benaiah the Pirathonite, of the children of Ephraim; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:15 The twelfth captain for the twelfth month was Heldai the Netophathite, of Othniel; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 27:16 Furthermore over the tribes of Israel: of the Reubenites was Eliezer the son of Zichri the ruler; of the Simeonites, Shephatiah the son of Maacah;
1Ch 27:17 of Levi, Hashabiah the son of Kemuel; of Aaron, Zadok;
1Ch 27:18 of Judah, Elihu, one of the brethren of David; of Issachar, Omri the son of Michael;
1Ch 27:19 of Zebulun, Ishmaiah the son of Obadiah; of Naphtali, Jerimoth the son of Azriel;
1Ch 27:20 of the children of Ephraim, Hoshea the son of Azaziah; of the half-tribe of Manasseh, Joel the son of Pedaiah;
1Ch 27:21 of the half-tribe of Manasseh in Gilead, Iddo the son of Zechariah; of Benjamin, Jaasiel the son of Abner;
1Ch 27:22 of Dan, Azarel the son of Jeroham. These were the captains of the tribes of Israel.
1Ch 27:23 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under; because the LORD had said He would increase Israel like to the stars of heaven.
1Ch 27:24 Joab the son of Zeruiah began to number, but finished not; and there came wrath for this upon Israel; neither was the number put into the account in the chronicles of king David.
1Ch 27:25 And over the king's treasuries was Azmaveth the son of Adiel; and over the treasuries in the fields, in the cities, and in the villages, and in the towers, was Jonathan the son of Uzziah;
1Ch 27:26 and over them that did the work of the field for tillage of the ground was Ezri the son of Chelub;
1Ch 27:27 and over the vineyards was Shimei the Ramathite; and over the increase of the vineyards for the wine-cellars was Zabdi the Shiphmite;
1Ch 27:28 and over the olive-trees and the sycomore-trees that were in the Lowland was Baal-hanan the Gederite; and over the cellars of oil was Joash;
1Ch 27:29 and over the herds that fed in Sharon was Shirtai the Sharonite; and over the herds that were in the valleys was Shaphat the son of Adlai;
1Ch 27:30 and over the camels was Obil the Ishmaelite; and over the asses was Jehdeiah the Meronothite;
1Ch 27:31 and over the flocks was Jaziz the Hagrite. All these were the rulers of the substance which was king David's.
1Ch 27:32 Also Jonathan David's uncle was a counsellor, a man of understanding, and a scribe; and Jehiel the son of Hachmoni was with the king's sons;
1Ch 27:33 and Ahithophel was the king's counsellor; and Hushai the Archite was the king's friend;
1Ch 27:34 and after Ahithophel was Jehoiada the son of Benaiah, and Abiathar; and the captain of the king's host was Joab.
So what happened, you may ask?
12 lunar months fall short of a solar year and there was a decision by the Jews to insert a month about every third year, which would sometimes bring the number up to 13 months.
There is NO mention of 13 months anywhere in the Bible.
In the modern Jewish calendar (based on Talmud NOT the Bible), the intercalary month is introduced seven times in every nineteen years
(please do not focus on the fact that I mentioned the number 19).
From Easton's Bible Dictionary:
Month
Among the Egyptians the month of thirty days each was in use long before the time of the Exodus, and formed the basis of their calculations. From the time of the institution of the Mosaic law the month among the Jews was lunar. The cycle of religious feasts depended on the moon. The commencement of a month was determined by the observation of the new moon. The number of months in the year was usually twelve (1Ki_4:7; 1Ch_27:1-15); but every third year an additional month (ve-Adar) was inserted, so as to make the months coincide with the seasons.
Salam,
Arnab
Quote from: Arnab on October 11, 2008, 07:13:38 AM
According to the OT and the Quran: There has always been only 12 months in a year. This is a fact.
In the Old Testament the moon was used for the computation of time:[/size]
The beginning of the month was generally decided by the observation of the new moon and was generally a celebrated occassion.
There were 12 months in a year.[/color]
There are only Twelve months in the Old Testament:
12 lunar months fall short of a solar year and there was a decision by the Jews to insert a month about every third year, which would sometimes bring the number up to 13 months.
There is NO mention of 13 months anywhere in the Bible.[/size]
In the modern Jewish calendar (based on Talmud NOT the Bible), the intercalary month is introduced seven times in every nineteen years
(please do not focus on the fact that I mentioned the number 19).
From Easton's Bible Dictionary:
Month
Among the Egyptians the month of thirty days each was in use long before the time of the Exodus, and formed the basis of their calculations. From the time of the institution of the Mosaic law the month among the Jews was lunar. The cycle of religious feasts depended on the moon. The commencement of a month was determined by the observation of the new moon. The number of months in the year was usually twelve (1Ki_4:7; 1Ch_27:1-15); but every third year an additional month (ve-Adar) was inserted, so as to make the months coincide with the seasons.
Salam,
Arnab
Peace Arnab and All:
Thank you so much for posting God's Torah and Biblic proofs, which are confirmed by Quran.
Now, you can see what Ayman is doing is the same as Jews did in the contrary of Torah.
May God lead every one who is seeking the truth to the Straight Path
Thank you again Arnab.
:sun:
Peace Arnab,
Quote from: Arnab on October 11, 2008, 07:13:38 AMPsa 81:3 (81:4) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day (hagg).
The great reading doesn?t tell us about manmade calendars. It tells us about god-given cosmic markers. The primary purpose of the cosmic markers is to time the fast, time the hunting restriction, and time of the feast/?
hagg?. We are clearly told in the great reading that the ?hagg? is ?ash-hur ma3loomat?, i.e. known full-moons (2:197), which are also the restricted full-moons. It is therefore not surprising that the people of the book started their feasts (hagg HaMatzot and hagg HaSukkot) at the time of the full moons. In particular, the hagg HaSukkot, the most important feast for the people of the book, falls on the last full-moon of the restricted full-moons. The god tells us that the ?hagg? is a maximum of 10 days, which is also the time it takes for the full-moon to return to the crescent stage. So the crescent times the end of the ?hagg?.
On the other hand, the sectarians? pagan pilgrimage to Mecca starts on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja. So their timing neither starts nor ends with the full-moon or the crescent and it is in fact completely arbitrary in blatant violation of the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all;
Ayman here are quotations from an artical that was writtin by a person of Book
Quote
God?s Calendar
The Calendar put in place by God was set in motion at the creation. It does not depend on man or on any system of observation to determine. It was in place during the entire Temple period of Israel and is not the same calendar as observed by Jews today. Christians are obliged by Law and the Testimony of the Bible to keep this Calendar and no other.
The word month is derived from the word for moon in the ancient root language, which became English. The Hebrew word is chadash or chodesh (SHD 2320) meaning a New Moon ? hence, it means a month. The New Moon is thus the means of determining the start of the month. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon says of this word (p. 294) that it means New Moon or Month ...?1. new moon as day, time of the new moon as a religious festival. 2. month as beginning with the New Moon?. There is no doubt that historically the month began with the New Moon. The moon was also always a festival in the Temple period and the High Priest entered the Temple on this day as well as the Sabbath.
The word is related to ch?dar (SHD 2314), to surround or enclose, to conceal or curtain. In its note on Strong's 2314, the Lexicon continues: "(as something surrounding) [from] II. conceal behind a curtain, conceal, confine. IV. conceal oneself, also abide, stay or remain behind also as sheathing a sword" (p. 294).
The sense of the basis of the term is clearly that of the full dark of the New Moon and not a later crescent. The matter of the crescent moon is examined in the paper The Golden Calf (No. 222).
Another word for month is yerach (SHD 3391) (1Kgs. 6:37-38; 8:2; 2Kgs. 15:13; Zech. 11:8). This is from an unused root of uncertain significance and means a lunation, i.e. a month or moon. Another word is the Chaldean yerach (SHD 3393), which corresponds to SHD 3391 (Ezra 6:15).
The word for moon when used in the sense of sun and moon is SHD 3394 or SHD 3391. It can be SHD 3842 (Isa. 24:23; 30:26). The word for New Moon (SHD 2320) is translated as month in the English. The exceptions make it evident that a specific day is being indicated (1Sam. 20:5,18,24; 2Kgs. 4:23; Ps. 81:3; Isa. 66:23; Ezek. 46:1,6; Amos 8:5). The months are thus the first, second, third etc. New Moon.
The New Moon is thus the central or determining point of the month. It forms the basis of calculation of the periods within a month. This is so with all of the Holy Days, not the least of which are the New Moons themselves (see the papers The New Moons (No. 125); The New Moons of Israel (No. 132); and also The Harvests of God, the New Moon Sacrifices, and the 144,000 (No. 120)).
The Saxon word Almanac appears to be derived from the Aramaic words al and manach meaning the counting. Verstigan, being the only exception, says however it came from al mon aght, i.e. al mon heed or the heeding of the moons. Certainly the concept of days beginning and ending at evening sunset or twilight is consistent with this Eastern origin (cf. Brady, pp. 42-43). The original almanacs were lunar cycle calendars, carved on four wooden pieces, based on 30 and 29-day sequences corresponding to the duration of the moon determining the conjunctions and full moons. The alternating day sequence was also the Arabic practice. A copy of an original Saxon Almanac is at Brady (op. cit., Vol. 1, between pp. 42-43). A very ancient one is in St Johns College, Cambridge, England.
The moon is also symbolic because it is in phases. The New Moon represents the beginning of the activity of each cycle. There are twelve months in the year (apart from intercalation) (1Kgs. 4:7; 1Chr. 27:1-15). They are generally reckoned to have a length of 30 days and that is the way they are referred to prophetically (Gen. 7:11; 8:3-4; Num. 20:29; Deut. 21:13; 34:8; Est. 4:11; Dan. 6:7-13).
The month of the Passover, which is Nisan or Abib, is specifically commanded by the Lord to be the beginning of the year (see also Num. 9:1-3; 33:3; Josh. 4:19; Ezek. 45:18,21). This beginning symbolises the redemption of the Israel of God from the world?s system (Gal. 1:4; Rev. 14:4).
The months are numbered in sequence so that the year might be identified and not later confused (Ex. 12:2; 13:4; 2Chr. 30:2; Neh. 8:2). The months and the courses of the priests are all listed in 1Chronicles 27:1-15. The New Moons were listed in the days of worship with the Sabbath and Holy Days in Numbers 28 and 29 (esp. Num. 28:1-2,11,14).
The correct system of the calculation of the month based on the New Moon is perfectly predictable. From the New Moon at full dark there can be a larger number of thirty-day months in a year. This would return to the pre-tradition observations of up to eight thirty-day months (see above). The Passover must always fall after the vernal equinox. The New Moon may be before the equinox up to fourteen days.
The process of the New Moon is also interrelated with the tidal system of Spring and Neap Tides. The Spring Tides always occur from the Full and New Moons. The Neap Tides occur from the quarters (see Annexure).
The rules that developed are seen to be a process of refinement in order to place tradition over the Laws of God because the traditions made the observance of the Holy Days onerous.
END Quote
those are very clear signs that Moon Cycel is to calculate Month and Sun cycle to calculate days, according to Quran, Injeal and Torah.
:)
Peace Progod,
I have a counter question for you. The shuhoor being restricted is also from God's perspective and their count being four is God's count too.
Why did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?
As you said that in 9:36 the count of shuhoor being 12 is from God's perspective but so are the restricted shuhoor and their count being four. Obviously, if the restricted shuhoor and them being four is meant for humans, so is the count of shuhoor in a solar year. He just wanted us to count 12 full-moons every solar year, and therefore also count only 12 when 13 full-moons occur in a solar year, so the seasons would remain synchronized with the restricted full-moons.
I understand the point you are trying to make that the count of "shuhoor" is God's, i.e. from God's perspective but so are "restricted shuhoor" and them being four, but you are failing to consider the phrase "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" (this is the correct system/obligation) immediately following that, which refers to both the count and the restricted shuhoor being four, and therefore makes it an obligation for the humans to follow the same count and the four restricted shuhoor from the human perspective too, unless you claim that God is talking about deen being for God and not for humans.
Peace Progod,
Quote from: progod on October 10, 2008, 07:06:17 PM
With all due respect, Nun I think you have been beating a dead horse here. And i disagree with the shahr as full moon camp as much as you do, although for different reasons so don't get me wrong. You don't like the incosistency of the count and that is understandable but I think as it concerns how many shahr must pass in these different requirements by God to wait or to fast I think the shahr as full moon camp has been clear. I don't believe that shahr means full-moon in the Quranic context either but the inconsistency in the actual time of waiting when it concerns waiting for full moons to pass has been fully and repeatedly explained. Arguing on the basis of this inconsistency (which obviously can vary inconsistently from 88-118 days for the same offense) is pointless. Nun, I don't think Umm Tariq is being unreasonable here. That incosistency of time is consistent with 'the shahr as full moon' idea so there is no point in continuing to argue that. I hope I am not turning you into an enemy, but i don't think they can say it any more clearer. If you want to continue to challenge this belief I think you'll have to do it using another aspect or ramification of this idea. Because you are just arguing something that they already know, have already admitted and that fits with the way they view this issue. There is no Quranic or logical inconsistency with THIS APSECT in the context of the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' idea.
Thank you for the succint explanation.
Can't you see that your translation of "shahr" to be "month of 30 days" will create the same inconsistency in al-quran?
According to your translation, in the
SAME CONTEXT of divorce and menstruation/menopause:
Menstruating woman will wait for a minimum of 56 days with a variation of 56-83 days depending on the time of divorce. (2:228)
Menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will wait for a minimum of 90 days without any variation. (65:4)
This causes a major inconsistency in the waiting period in the same context of divorce, which defies any logical explanation.
Why does a menstruating woman wait for a minimum of 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait a minimum of 90 days ?
Peace everyone,
This is for those who claim that "shahr" means "lunar month", and therefore according to God the count of lunar months in a year is twelve per 9:36.
I have already shown that according to al-quran, the year is solar (combining 17:12 and 10:5). Therefore, if "shahr" means lunar month, then 9:36 implies to count 12 lunar months/cycles in a solar year. Following is a website which gives the moon phases in a year:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html
I challenge everyone to count the lunar cycles/months in a year and show that there are exactly 12 lunar cycles/months in every year.
You will find that the number of lunar months is 11 every year for 2 years and 12 in the third one, but it is never 12 every year. Similarly, you will find that the count of lunar months is 12.3 every year and not 12.
This conclusively proves that "shahr" cannot mean "lunar month/cycle" in al-quran.
The meaning of "lunar month" also creates other contradictions and inconsistencies in al-quran as shown in a previous post of mine:
1 - The count of lunar months in a solar year is 12.3 and not 12 like we are told in 9:36. The number of lunar months/cycles in a solar year is 11 every year for 2 years and 12 in third year, but it is never 12 every year. If "shahr" is translated as "lunar month", that makes it a time period which can be counted in fractions. Full-moon, on the other hand, is a binary event (either 0 or 1), which is either present or not, and thus cannot be counted in fractions. Translating "shahr" as "lunar month" therefore will contradict 9:36, because we will never be able to count exactly 12 shuhoor in a solar year.
2 - Why can a menstruating woman wait for a minimum of 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait a minimum of 88 days (3 lunar months)? The meaning of "lunar month" in 65:4 would result in a major inconsistency in al-quran, because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the minimum waiting period for menopausal women whose menopause is doubtful would be 88 days.
3 - All 29 or 30 days have to be witnessed in order to witness/shahida a lunar month. No one can witness a lunar month just on seeing the first day, because lunar month consists of 29 or 30 days, and witnessing one day is not witnessing a lunar month. The only way to fulfill 2:185 will be to witness all the 29 or 30 days first and then start fasting, but then how long do we fast? If we start fasting during that lunar month, then we are violating the command to witness it first. Hence it is impossible to witness the lunar month before fasting AND fast during it.
4 - 2:185 tells us to fast it (falyasumhu) and not fast in it (falyasum fihi). How can a person fast for 29 or 30 days non-stop? The usage of "fast it" obviously implies that "it" is an event/marker, and not the time period for fasting.
5 - It is a ridiculous redundancy to say "complete the count" after saying "whoever among you witnesses the lunar month then fast it" (meaning fast for 29 or 30 days). There is no clarification needed to complete the count if it is already stated to fast for the number of days in that lunar month.
6 - 2:185 mentions descent of al-quran. Translating "shahr" as "lunar month" would mean that al-quran was descended in a month, and this will contradict 44:3 and 97:1, which clearly tell us that the descent was in a single night.
Truth seeker!
Good job done.
siki
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 12, 2008, 12:32:56 PMWhy did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?
Thank you for pointing out facts and them clear :sun:
Peace,
Ayman
Peace truthseeker,
Thanks again for all the more clarity of the issue. Excellent point about the count of restricted shuhur. May the god continue to increase us all in sincerity, knowledge and guidance.
Umm Tariq
Peace,
QuotePeace Progod,
I have a counter question for you. The shuhoor being restricted is also from God's perspective and their count being four is God's count too.
Do you think it's right to ask a counter question (whatever that is) when you have not answered my last question? Is it okay to answer a question with a question? But alright if you are honestly trying to understand my position better, then for the sake of possible progress in this conversation I will gladly go along.
Quote
Why did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?
Isn't that a question you should ask God? I mean there is no logical problem about how many restricted/sacred shuhoor God wanted to make. He said four, but He could have easily said 3 or 5. The point is that He's not ignoring anything that He created in the first place.
Quote
As you said that in 9:36 the count of shuhoor being 12 is from God's perspective but so are the restricted shuhoor and their count being four. Obviously, if the restricted shuhoor and them being four is meant for humans, so is the count of shuhoor in a solar year. He just wanted us to count 12 full-moons every solar year, and therefore also count only 12 when 13 full-moons occur in a solar year, so the seasons would remain synchronized with the restricted full-moons.
Ok, let's look at 9:36 again. It says specifically God's count of months (inna 3iddata shuhoor 3anda allaahi). The 3anda which is possessive makes the count God's. And what follows lets us know that His count has been 12 since He created the heavens (that includes the moon) and the earth. So why He would create 13 full moons in some years and not have been counting them since the day He created the moon and the earth is a puzzle to me. I don't think God would create something and then ignore it.
The second part about 4 of them being sacred for God only, that part of the passage has nothing to do with God's count anymore and God's count is the issue at hand. The passage specifically says God is counting 12 shahr. This is not about the passage being from God's perspective because just about all of the Quran is from God's perspective. The issue is that the first part of this passage is only dealing with God's action of counting 12 shahr. Remember 3iddah is an action. It is counting.
God in this verse does declare 4 of these 12 shuhoor to be hurum, and we are instructed about how to act within the hurum in other passages of the Quran. So that is one of the ways that we know that these shuhoor hurum apply to us and are not just for God's sake. Let's look at the pertinent part of the 9:36:
God's count/counting of shuhoor is twelve; (that is) in God's decree/book/record the day he created the heavens and the earth. (End of first idea).
Of these (shuhoor) 4 of them are sacred/restricted. This is the correct discipline/order/way/religion. So do no wrong/harm to each other DURING THEM (this 'them' could refer to the 4 shuhoor declared hurum by God or to the 12 that God has been counting since he created the moon and the earth.) As I said before there is something seriously wong in claiming that God has been ignoring a phenomenon (the occurrence of a 13th full moon) that he created snice the day he created both the moon and the earth.
Quote
I understand the point you are trying to make that the count of "shuhoor" is God's, i.e. from God's perspective but so are "restricted shuhoor" and them being four, but you are failing to consider the phrase "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" (this is the correct system/obligation) immediately following that, which refers to both the count and the restricted shuhoor being four, and therefore makes it an obligation for the humans to follow the same count and the four restricted shuhoor from the human perspective too, unless you claim that God is talking about deen being for God and not for humans.
Yes, God is saying that His count of 12 shuhoor in the year and the 4 shuhoor declared hurum is ad-deenul-qayyimu. And that does point to the fact that we need to observe the 4 shuhoor declared hurum and that we need to imitate the way God has been counting these shuhoor. I never tried to make this deen only for God and not applicable to us. But the counting of 12 shuhoor mentioned in this verse is specifically God's action, first and foremost. And what I am saying is why in the world would God have been ignoring a phenomenon (the occurrence of the 13th full moon) that He Himself made when He first created both the moon and the earth?
So here is what your belief implies: God created the heavens, the moon and the earth, and created the phenomenon where there is a 13th full moon every few years. But He has chosen to ignore all of the occurences of the 13th full moon that He created in the first place since the very day He caused this phenomenon to exist.
So in essence you have God not counting something that He created in the first place. And that goes against 72:28 and it's claim that God takes into account (meaning He does not ignore) the number of all things. And that verse goes along with the sound logic that God wouldn't create something (including the consistent occurrence of a 13th moon) only to completely ignore it right after He created it in the first place.
Godbless,
Anwar
I hope you finally understood my issue with the Quranic implicatons of the 'shahr only as full moon in the Quran' idea and ignoring a complete shahr.
What's even more interesting is that even in the Talmudic/Pre-Quranic Arab system no-one really literally added a month. They just ignored what would have been the first lunar cylce, after the the 12th one had passed, and resumed counting on the 2nd lunar cycle as if it were the first one. And that is strikingly and eerily similar to ignoring a naturally occurring 13th full moon all together and resuming the count on what would be the second full moon of a 12 full moon cycle. I urge you not to dismiss me here and to really think about this. It is the very same thing that the Quran forbids us whether shahr is taken as a complete lunar cycle or a full moon.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 12, 2008, 12:32:56 PM
Why did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?
Salam,
Here is my current understanding:
There are Three months in the Torah in which there are specific observances. The Fourth month would be the Month of Ramadan in which the Quran was revealed.
The three great feasts in the Torah plus of the Month of Ramadan in which the Quran was revealed would equal Four sacred Months.
1. Passover Observances including Feast of Unleavened Bread, (the first month of the year in which the Exodus Occurred)
2. Shavout/Pentacost/Feast of Weeks (observed on the 50th day, or 7 weeks, from the Paschal Feast)
3. Yom Kippur, Day of Shouting, Feast of Tabernacles (Seventh Month)
4. Ramadan the month in which the Quran was revealed
1. The Month of Abib and Passover
From Eastons Bible Dictionary
The name given to the chief of the three great historical annual festivals of the Jews. It was kept in remembrance of the Lord's passing over the houses of the Israelites (Exo_12:13) when the first born of all the Egyptians were destroyed. It is called also the ?feast of unleavened bread? (Exo_23:15; Mar_14:1; Act_12:3), because during its celebration no leavened bread was to be eaten or even kept in the household (Exo_12:15).
A detailed account of the institution of this feast is given in Ex. 12 and 13. It was afterwards incorporated in the ceremonial law (Lev_23:4-8) as one of the great festivals of the nation. In after times many changes seem to have taken place as to the mode of its celebration as compared with its first celebration [by first celebration is meant the ACTUAL Exodus] (Compare Deu_16:2, Deu_16:5, Deu_16:6; 2Ch_30:16; Lev_23:10-14; Num_9:10, Num_9:11; Num_28:16-24).
2. Shavout/Pentacost/Feast of Weeks
From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
As the name indicates, this second of the great Jewish national festivals was observed on the 50th day, or 7 weeks, from the Paschal Feast, and therefore in the Old Testament it was called ?the feast of weeks.? It is but once mentioned in the historical books of the Old Testament (2Ch_8:12, 2Ch_8:13), from which reference it is plain, however, that the people of Israel, in Solomon's day, were perfectly familiar with it: ?offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the set feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.? The requirements of the three great festivals were then well understood at this time, and their authority was founded in the Mosaic Law and unquestioned. The festival and its ritual were minutely described in this Law. Every male in Israel was on that day required to appear before the Lord at the sanctuary (Exo_34:22, Exo_34:23). It was the first of the two agrarian festivals of Israel and signified the completion of the barley-harvest (Lev_23:15, Lev_23:16; Deu_16:9, Deu_16:10), which had begun at the time of the waving of the first ripe sheaf of the first-fruits (Lev_23:11). Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, therefore fell on the 50th day after this occurrence. The wheat was then also nearly everywhere harvested (Exo_23:16; Exo_34:22; Num_28:26), and the general character of the festival was that of a harvest-home celebration. The day was observed as a Sabbath day, all labor was suspended, and the people appeared before Yahweh to express their gratitude (Lev_23:21; Num_28:26). The central feature of the day was the presentation of two loaves of leavened, salted bread unto the Lord (Lev_23:17, Lev_23:20; Exo_34:22; Num_28:26; Deu_16:10). The size of each loaf was fixed by law. It must contain the tenth of an ephah, about three quarts and a half, of the finest wheat flour of the new harvest (Lev_23:17). Later Jewish writers are very minute in their description of the preparation of these two loaves (Josephus, Ant., III, x, 6). According to the Mishna (Menāḥōth, xi. 4), the length of the loaf was 7 handbreadths, its width 4, its depth 7 fingers. Lev_23:18 describes the additional sacrifices required on this occasion. It was a festival of good cheer, a day of joy. Free-will offerings were to be made to the Lord (Deu_16:10), and it was to be marked by a liberal spirit toward the Levite, the stranger, and orphans and widows (Deu_16:11, Deu_16:14). Perhaps the command against gleaning harvest-fields has a bearing on this custom (Lev_23:22).
3. Yom Kippur, Day of Shouting, Feast of Tabernacles
From The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
In Exo_30:10 it is mentioned in the directions that are given for the construction of the altar of incense that Aaron, once a year, is to make an atonement on the horns of the altar, with the blood of the sin offering, which is used for the purpose of an atonement for sin.
In Lev_23:26-32 mention is made in the list of festivals of the Day of Atonement, on the 10th day of the 7th month. It is ordered that for this day there shall be a holy convocation at the sanctuary, a fast, an offering by fire, and rest from labor from the 9th day of the 7th month in the evening.
In Lev_23:23-25 the first day (new moon) of the seventh month is set apart as a solemn rest, ?a memorial of blowing of trumpets? (the Hebrew leaves ?of trumpets? to be understood), signalized further by ?a holy convocation,? abstinence from work, and the presentation of ?an offering made by fire.? In Num_29:1-6 these directions are repeated, with a detailed specification of the nature of the offering. In addition to the usual daily burnt sacrifices and the special offerings for new moons, there are to be offered one bullock, one ram, and seven he-lambs, with proper meal offerings, together with a he-goat for a sin offering.
The Feast of Tabernacles is at once the general harvest festival, ḥagh he-'āṣīph, and the anniversary of the beginnings of the wanderings in the wilderness (Exo_23:16; Lev_23:33; Deu_16:13-15). The Eighth Day of Assembly immediately following the last day of Tabernacles (Lev_23:36; Num_29:35; Joh_7:37) and closing the long cycle of Tishri festivals seems to have been merely a final day of rejoicing before the pilgrims returned to their homes.
4. Ramadan
We know about this one :)
General Info:
From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
Found Under: Feasts, and Fasts
Passover is connected with the barley harvest; at the same time it is the zeman ḥērūth, recalling the
Exodus from Egypt (Exo_12:6; Lev_23:5, Lev_23:8; Num_28:16-25; Deu_16:1-8).
Pentecost has an agricultural phase as hagh ha-bikkūrīm, the celebration of the wheat harvest; it has a
religious phase as zeman mattan Thōrāh in the Jewish liturgy, based on the rabbinical calculation which
makes it the day of the giving of the Law, and this religious side has so completely overshadowed the
agricultural that among modern Jews the Pentecost has become ?confirmation day? (Exo_34:26; Lev_23:10-
14; Num_28:26-31).
The Feast of Tabernacles is at once the general harvest festival, ḥagh he-'āṣīph, and the anniversary of
the beginnings of the wanderings in the wilderness (Exo_23:16; Lev_23:33; Deu_16:13-15). The Eighth Day
of Assembly immediately following the last day of Tabernacles (Lev_23:36; Num_29:35; Joh_7:37) and
closing the long cycle of Tishri festivals seems to have been merely a final day of rejoicing before the
pilgrims returned to their homes.
New Year (Lev_23:23-25; Num_29:1-6) and the Day of Atonement (Lev_16:1; Lev_23:26-32; Num_29:7-11)
marked the turning of the year; primarily, perhaps, in the natural phenomena of Palestine, but also in
the inner life of the nation and the individual. Hence, the religious significance of these days as days
of judgment, penitence and forgiveness soon overshadowed any other significance they may have had. The
temple ritual for these days, which is minutely described in the Old Testament and in the Talmud, was
the most elaborate and impressive of the year. At the same time Atonement Day was socially an important
day of rejoicing.
On the subject of the Lunar vs. Solar discussion Here are some Opinions/Theories:From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
Natural Seasons for Worship
The sun alone indicated the hours for daily worship; at sunrise, when the day began, there was the
morning sacrifice; at sunset, when the day closed, there was the evening sacrifice.
The moon indicated the time for monthly worship; when the slender crescent of the new moon was first
seen in the western sky, special sacrifices were ordained with the blowing of trumpets over them.
The sun and moon together marked the times for the two great religious festivals of the year. At the
beginning of the bright part of the year, when the moon was full in the first month of spring, the
Passover, followed by the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was held. At the end of the bright part of the
year, when the moon was full in the first month of autumn, the Feast of Tabernacles was held. These may
all be termed natural seasons for worship, obviously marked out as appropriate. The beginning and close
of the bright part of the day, and of the bright part of the year, and the beginning of the bright part
of the month, have been observed by many nations.
The Luni-Solar Cycles of Daniel
The seasons for which the sun and moon were appointed are mentioned in yet another connection. In the last vision given to Daniel the question was asked, ?How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?? and it was answered, ?It shall be for a time, times (dual), and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished? (Dan_12:6, Dan_12:7). From the parallel passage in Dan_7:25, where it is said of the fourth beast, ?He shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time (‛iddān) and times (dual) and half a time,? it is inferred that mō‛ēdh in the first instance stands, like ‛iddān in the second, for a year; or the period is equivalent to half a week of years. The parallel passages in Rev_11:2, Rev_11:3; Rev_12:6, Rev_12:14; Rev_13:5 have caused these years to be taken as conventional years of 360 days, each year being made up of 12 conventional months of 30 days, and on the year-day principle of interpretation, the entire period indicated would be one of 1,260 tropical years. This again is a luni-solar cycle, since 1,260 years contain 15,584 months correct to the nearest day. To the same prophet Daniel a further chronological vision was given, and a yet more perfect cycle indicated. In answer to the question, ?How long shall be the vision concerning the continual burnt-offering, and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?? the answer was returned, ?Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed? (Dan_8:13, Dan_8:14). Whatever may be the prophetic significance of the passage its astronomical significance is clear: 840,057 days are precisely 2,300 solar years, or 28,447 lunar months, or 30,487 anomalistic months, the anomalistic month being the period in which the moon travels from perigee to perigee. It is the most perfect lunisolar cycle known, and restores the two great lights exactly to their former relationship. This fullest ?season? indicated by the sun and moon is given as that for the cleansing of the sanctuary, for the bringing in, as it were, of the full and perfect Jubilee.
It is not possible at present to decide as to whether the Jews had learnt of this cycle and its significance from their astronomical observations. If so, they must have been far in advance in mathematical science of all other nations of antiquity. If not, then it must have been given to them by Divine revelation, and its astronomical significance has been left for modern science to reveal.
Calendar
The sun and moon were appointed ?to give light upon the earth,? and ?for signs,? and ?for days and years.? They were also appointed ?for seasons? (mō‛ădhīm), i.e. ?appointed assemblies.? These seasons were not primarily such seasons as the progress of the year brings forth in the form of changes of weather or of the condition of vegetation; they were seasons for worship. The word mō‛ēdh occurs some 219 times; in 149, it is translated ?congregation,? and in about 50 other instances by ?solemn assembly? or some equivalent expression. Thus before ever man was created, God had provided for him times to worship and had appointed two great lights of heaven to serve as signals to call to it.
The appointed sacred seasons of the Jews form a most complete and symmetrical series, developing from times indicated by the sun alone to times indicated by the sun and moon together, and completed in times indicated by luni-solar cycles.
From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Astronomy
The Hebrews were devout students of the wonders of the starry firmament (Amo_5:8; Psa_19:1-14). In the Book of Job, which is the oldest book of the Bible in all probability, the constellations are distinguished and named. Mention is made of the ?morning star? (Rev_2:28; compare Isa_14:12), the ?seven stars? and ?Pleiades,? ?Orion,? ?Arcturus,? the ?Great Bear? (Amo_5:8; Job_9:9; Job_38:31), ?the crooked serpent,? Draco (Job_26:13), the Dioscuri, or Gemini, ?Castor and Pollux? (Act_28:11). The stars were called ?the host of heaven? (Isa_40:26; Jer_33:22).
The oldest divisions of time were mainly based on the observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies, the ?ordinances of heaven? (Gen_1:14-18; Job_38:33; Jer_31:35; Jer_33:25). Such observations led to the division of the year into months and the mapping out of the appearances of the stars into twelve portions, which received from into twelve portions, which received from the Greeks the name of the ?zodiac.? The word ?Mazzaroth? (Job_38:32) means, as the margin notes, ?the twelve signs? of the zodiac. Astronomical observations were also necessary among the Jews in order to the fixing of the proper time for sacred ceremonies, the ?new moons,? the ?passover,? etc. Many allusions are found to the display of God's wisdom and power as seen in the starry heavens (Psa_8:1-9; Psa_19:1-6; Isa_51:6, etc.)
An Interesting point of view on the whole lunar vs Solar discussion:
http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
Salam,
Arnab
Peace Progod,
Quote from: progod on October 13, 2008, 10:21:43 AM
The second part about 4 of them being sacred for God only, that part of the passage has nothing to do with God's count anymore and God's count is the issue at hand. The passage specifically says God is counting 12 shahr. This is not about the passage being from God's perspective because just about all of the Quran is from God's perspective. The issue is that the first part of this passage is only dealing with God's action of counting 12 shahr. Remember 3iddah is an action. It is counting.
God is also
counting 4 restricted (not sacred) shuhoor.
It is God's count as is clear from the wording "
minha arba3atun hurumun". MINHA/"from it" directly refers to the count of shuhoor being 12, which is God's count, so the count of restricted shuhoor being four is also God's count.
Why did God count only four and not 3 or 5 restricted shuhoor? All animals don't magically stop breeding in 4 shuhoor. Some of them continue for a few more weeks. Why did God ignore those animals?As I will show in this post, God is not ignoring anything, but is just making a deen/system/obligation for us to follow, instead of stating absolute facts.
Quote from: progodGod in this verse does declare 4 of these 12 shuhoor to be hurum, and we are instructed about how to act within the hurum in other passages of the Quran. So that is one of the ways that we know that these shuhoor hurum apply to us and are not just for God's sake.
Similarly we are instructed about using the count of shuhoor in other passages, for example using the count to determine the waiting period after divorce. So that is one of the ways we know that the count of shuhoor applies to us and are not just for God's sake. Even in 9:36 God says "
thalika alddeenu alqayyimu"/"this is the correct system/obligation", which is also applicable to the count of shuhoor being 12, and thus makes the count of shuhoor being 12 applicable to us, as a system/obligation for us to follow.
Quote from: progodLet's look at the pertinent part of the 9:36:
God's count/counting of shuhoor is twelve; (that is) in God's decree/book/record the day he created the heavens and the earth.
(End of first idea).
Of these (shuhoor) 4 of them are sacred/restricted. This is the correct discipline/order/way/religion.
So do no wrong/harm to each other DURING THEM (this 'them' could refer to the 4 shuhoor declared hurum by God or to the 12 that God has been counting since he created the moon and the earth.)
As I said before, MINHA joins both phrases and you cannot separate them like that; "
thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" refers to BOTH:
1. The count of shuhoor being 12 with God
2.
FROM IT/MINHA 4 being restricted
Both of these are the correct DEEN/SYSTEM/OBLIGATION
for humans. God is not ignoring anything and has made
a system/obligation of counting for us to follow.Quote from: progodYes, God is saying that His count of 12 shuhoor in the year and the 4 shuhoor declared hurum is ad-deenul-qayyimu. And that does point to the fact that we need to observe the 4 shuhoor declared hurum and that we need to imitate the way God has been counting these shuhoor. I never tried to make this deen only for God and not applicable to us. But the counting of 12 shuhoor mentioned in this verse is specifically God's action, first and foremost.
Count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also specifically God's action, as is clear from "minha"/from IT, the IT referring to the count of shuhoor being 12. The "minha" also indicates that the count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also from the day He created the heavens and the earth. So both counts are specifically God's actions, but as you correctly stated, those counts are a system/obligation for us to follow.
Quote from: progodAnd what I am saying is why in the world would God have been ignoring a phenomenon (the occurrence of the 13th full moon) that He Himself made when He first created both the moon and the earth?
So here is what your belief implies: God created the heavens, the moon and the earth, and created the phenomenon where there is a 13th full moon every few years. But He has chosen to ignore all of the occurences of the 13th full moon that He created in the first place since the very day He caused this phenomenon to exist.
So in essence you have God not counting something that He created in the first place. And that goes against 72:28 and it's claim that God takes into account (meaning He does not ignore) the number of all things. And that verse goes along with the sound logic that God wouldn't create something (including the consistent occurrence of a 13th moon) only to completely ignore it right after He created it in the first place.
HE IS NOT IGNORING ANYTHING. HE JUST CREATED A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AS IS CLEAR FROM "THALIKA ALDDEENU ALQAYYIMU"/"THIS IS THE CORRECT SYSTEM/OBLIGATION".You will have a point only if it had stated that
THE NUMBER of shuhoor with God is 12. Then He would be ignoring the occurrence of other shuhoor.
You will also have a point if "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" was missing from 9:36, but it is not missing. God chooses His words very carefully.
The count of shuhoor being 12 is a count and not a number, and
this count is a system/obligation made for us to follow. God is not ignoring, but making a system/obligation for us, just like He made only 4 shuhoor restricted. Once again, why did God ignore some wild animals who continue to breed after the four restricted shuhoor are over?
Making a system/obligation is not the same as stating absolute facts. God is not stating absolute facts, but making a system/obligation for us to follow, so He can test us. If He was stating absolute facts, He would have used the word "3adad"/number, and not "3iddat"/count, or He would not have said "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu".
HE COULD HAVE EASILY STATED THAT "THE COUNT OF SHUHOOR IS 10 OR 11 WITH GOD AND THIS IS THE CORRECT DEEN/SYSTEM", AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO IGNORE ANY FULL-MOONS IN A SOLAR YEAR AFTER THE 10TH or 11TH. 9:36 IS JUST A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AND NOT STATING ABSOLUTE FACTS. Quote from: progodWhat's even more interesting is that even in the Talmudic/Pre-Quranic Arab system no-one really literally added a month. They just ignored what would have been the first lunar cylce, after the the 12th one had passed, and resumed counting on the 2nd lunar cycle as if it were the first one. And that is strikingly and eerily similar to ignoring a naturally occurring 13th full moon all together and resuming the count on what would be the second full moon of a 12 full moon cycle. I urge you not to dismiss me here and to really think about this. It is the very same thing that the Quran forbids us whether shahr is taken as a complete lunar cycle or a full moon.
9:37 does not mention anything about adding a month. The word is "nasi'a" which means "delay".
9:37 Know that the "nasi'a"/delay causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by
making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.
God does not forbid ignoring the 13th full-moon every 3rd year, but forbids delaying the restricted shuhoor every other year. The delaying can be done not just by ignoring a shahr prematurely, but also by arbitrarily delaying the restricted shuhoor according to our personal whims and desires, which is exactly what your theory proposes. Your theory circumvents what God has made restricted, by making the determination of start of the restricted shuhoor and their occurrence completely arbitrary according to our personal whims and desires, thus violating the hunting restriction and making lawful what God made forbidden, just like 9:37 states.
Peace Siki, Ayman, Umm Tariq,
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words. Truth always exposes the falsehood but we have to control our egos and fantasies, and have complete faith/trust in al-quran, and majority fail to do that. They forget that al-quran authenticates and supercedes previous revelations or other historical information, and not the other way around. Once we control our egos and fantasies, and have faith in God's words, He always guides us to the truth. May God help us control our egos and fantasies, and understand His words and guide us to the truth.
45:23 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
Peace,
QuoteGod is also counting 4 restricted (not sacred) shuhoor. It is God's count as is clear from the wording "minha arba3atun hurumun". MINHA/"from it" directly refers to the count of shuhoor being 12, which is God's count, so the count of restricted shuhoor being four is also God's count.
As far as your definition for haraam. You have no clue. The word can means restricted and sacred. And the only way you will understand this is by understanding how ihtiraam (from the same root) means respect. So don't argue with me on the meaning of harama, because you are pidgeon-holing the meaning unjustly.
QuoteWhy did God count only four and not 3 or 5 restricted shuhoor? All animals don't magically stop breeding in 4 shuhoor. Some of them continue for a few more weeks. Why did God ignore those animals?
It is amazing how you premise this argument based on yoru man-made requisite for hunting restrictions to protect animal breeding. First of all, not every animal breeds in the same season. And ateast most government sponsored hunting bans are revoked or extended based on actual animal populations not breeding times. But, you guys agree on this general rule assuming that you know when "most" animals breed, and also trying to force these bans onto all people the way you think they should be. Listen, if the Quran had been talking about saving animal populations when it mentioned the ban on hunting, I think it would have said it. To asssume so is just that, an assumption. There is no way you can judge my conclusions based on this non-quranic conjecture. If the Quran says something ecologically sound then hey, that's great, but don't try to force an ecological agenda on the Quran that doesn't even realistically apply to all the animal populations that are subject to human hunting. And to imply that you would force these prohbitions on non-Muslims is wrong. Ayman took a good and ecologically sound, but man-made, voted on, and subject to change measure and tried to force that into the Quran. And you are accepting this? Why? We can guestimate and conjecture all day about what the hunting restriction and fasting are really for. But if the Quran doesn't say it specifically all we can do is be witnesses to the affects and praise God if and when they are good. More than that is inappropriate.
Quote
As I will show in this post, God is not ignoring anything, but is just making a deen/system/obligation for us to follow, instead of stating absolute facts.
But God did state an absolute fact. There's no getting past that. Inna 3iddata shuhoori 3anda allaahi is the statement of an absolute fact, not a command.
QuoteSimilarly we are instructed about using the count of shuhoor in other passages, for example using the count to determine the waiting period after divorce. So that is one of the ways we know that the count of shuhoor applies to us and are not just for God's sake. Even in 9:36 God says "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu"/"this is the correct system/obligation", which is also applicable to the count of shuhoor being 12, and thus makes the count of shuhoor being 12 applicable to us, as a system/obligation for us to follow.
In truth the verse is telling us an absolute fact about the way God has been doing things, and who does things better than God? Right? So we are best off following what God has been doing. I see that as the intent of those passages dealing with an-nasee'. First it tells us how God has been doing it and then it implies that we need to be doing it like God has been doing it. And with that said I am quite sure that God has not been ignoring any 13th full moon in any of the years he has created.
Quote
Both of these are the correct DEEN/SYSTEM/OBLIGATION for humans. God is not ignoring anything and has made a system/obligation of counting for us to follow.
Don't you get it? God has been counting and we are to count like he does. So for God to have been counting only 12 full moons in the years that he created 13 of them means that he has been ignoring his own 13th full moons. I know you see that, and I know you know that this is a problem.
QuoteCount of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also specifically God's action, as is clear from "minha"/from IT, the IT referring to the count of shuhoor being 12. The "minha" also indicates that the count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also from the day He created the heavens and the earth. So both counts are specifically God's actions, but as you correctly stated, those counts are a system/obligation for us to follow.
I think there is only one
mentioned count in this verse but to be honest, what is the issue? The 4 months is actually a number 3adad as well. But besides that, God counts 12 shuhoor, and then he says 4 of them are sacred/restricted and we are to imitate his count and observe his 4 sacred/restricted shuhoor. Agreed. But that still does not answer why God has been ignoring the 13th full moons (when we see shahr as full moon) that He Himself created during some years. Why would God ignore what He created in the first place?
QuoteHE IS NOT IGNORING ANYTHING. HE JUST CREATED A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AS IS CLEAR FROM "THALIKA ALDDEENU ALQAYYIMU"/"THIS IS THE CORRECT SYSTEM/OBLIGATION".
But earlier you agreed that 9:36 is a statement of God's actions that we are to imitate. Whether we are to imitate God's counting is not the issue here. We both know that that is the intent of this passage. There's no arguing that. The issue is why is God not counting the 13th full moons that he caused in the first place? Because if you are saying that God has only been counting 12 full moons since he created the heavens and the earth you are implying that he has been ignoring, by not counting, the 13th full moons that he created in the first place.
Quote
You will have a point only if it had stated that THE NUMBER of shuhoor with God is 12. Then He would be ignoring the occurrence of other shuhoor.
But the Quran says that God has been counting (3iddah) only 12 shuhoor. So that means that out of 13 full moons in any given year God has been only counting up to 12 during those years since the day he created the heavens, the moon and the earth. And in that case it is obvious that he would be ignoring His own 13th full moons that he caused in the first place. The matter is not a difference between 3adad and 3iddah, or number and count/counting my friend. I have been using the meaning of counting to make this point for a long time now. Please don't accuse me of implying number, when I am specifically talking about how many full moons God has always been counting. Taking shahr as full moon, according 9:36 God has ben counting 12 full moons each year. Despite the fact that he gave some of those years 13 full moons. So how is it that when God doesn't count the 13th full moons that HE created, He is somehow not ignoring them?
Quote
You will also have a point if "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" was missing from 9:36, but it is not missing. God chooses His words very carefully.
I have a point
with this phrase in the verse. This is the part that lets us know that we are to imitate God's way of counting. Holy/restricted months and all. But that still doesn't negate the fact that looking at shuhoor as full moon in the Quran has God ignoring the 13th full moons that he Himself created since the day He created the heavens, the moon and the earth.
QuoteThe count of shuhoor being 12 is a count and not a number, and this count is a system/obligation made for us to follow. God is not ignoring, but making a system/obligation for us, just like He made only 4 shuhoor restricted.
You are right that count and not number is the word used here. And this count is not only a system/obligation for us to follow, it is also the way God counts Himself per 9:36. But again if the passage says that God has only been counting twelve full moons since the day he created the heavens and the earth, then that means he's been ignoring the 13th full moons that He created too.
Quote
Once again, why did God ignore some wild animals who continue to breed after the four restricted shuhoor are over?
That is a question you have to ask your camp. Because it is according to your camp that these four holy/restricted months are so wild animals can breed freely during some common breeding season. So any animals left out of that process because their breeding continues later than your proposed 4 months of hunting restriction or because their breeding season falls in a completely separate time, is proof of the inconsistency of this proposal. Not to mention that the Quran does not give ecological reasons for not hunting during these shuhoor, nor does it mention the breeding cycles of animals. These reasons may not be un-Quranic but they are completely extra-Quranic and non-Quranic.
QuoteMaking a system/obligation is not the same as stating absolute facts. God is not stating absolute facts, but making a system/obligation for us to follow, so He can test us. If He was stating absolute facts, He would have used the word "3adad"/number, and not "3iddat"/count, or He would not have said "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu".
But you see 9:36 does both. It states an absolute fact and then implies that we imitate it. And I don't see your point about God using 3adad/number to state a fact and 3iddah/counting/count to to make a system. In 9:36 what's given to us is the absolute fact that God has been counting (3iddah) 12 shuhoor since he created the heavens and the earth. Then the fact that 4 of these are hurum, is also given to us. And then we are urged to imitate God's count by the use of the word deen. But that still does not eliminate the problem of God not counting His own 13th full moons since the day He created the heavens, the earth and the moon itself. This problem can't be avoided if we take shahr as full moon in the Quran.
QuoteHE COULD HAVE EASILY STATED THAT "THE COUNT OF SHUHOOR IS 10 OR 11 WITH GOD AND THIS IS THE CORRECT DEEN/SYSTEM", AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO IGNORE ANY FULL-MOONS IN A SOLAR YEAR AFTER THE 10TH or 11TH. 9:36 IS JUST A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AND NOT STATING ABSOLUTE FACTS.
Again you are ignoring the fact that God has been counting 12, and we are urged to imitate God's count. In which case the question still stands. Why has God not been counting his own 13th full moons?
Quote
9:37 does not mention anything about adding a month. The word is "nasi'a" which means "delay".
I clearly said that although people have termed this idea of a 13th month as adding a 13th month, it is really not an addition at all. It is ignoring the real 1st month (we call it the 13th month) and thereby delaying the actual 1st month of the year so that it falls on what would have been the 2nd month had we started afresh right after the 12th month expired.
9:37 Know that the "nasi'a"/delay IS an increase in rejection/denial, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.QuoteGod does not forbid ignoring the 13th full-moon every 3rd year, but forbids delaying the restricted shuhoor every other year. The delaying can be done not just by ignoring a shahr prematurely, but also by arbitrarily delaying the restricted shuhoor according to our personal whims and desires, which is exactly what your theory proposes. Your theory circumvents what God has made restricted, by making the determination of start of the restricted shuhoor and their occurrence completely arbitrary according to our personal whims and desires, thus violating the hunting restriction and making lawful what God made forbidden, just like 9:37 states.
I beg to differ about how you are reading that verse. The delaying of any shahr via ignoring it was done to to circumvent
the count that God has made restricted. And not only are the sacred/restricted shuhoor restricted to 4, but the count of the shuhoor is restricted to 12. And by circumventing these counts
they make lawful what God made forbidden!
So here's the truth:
1. If there are 13 full moons some years, but God has only been counting up to 12 (9:36), then he has not been counting the 13th full moons. So he has been ignoing them. That goes against logic and 72:28 and shows that the shuhoor of the Quran are not full-moons.
2. 9:36 is stating an absolute fact about how God has been counting the shuhoor and then urges us to imitate God's counting (3iddah) of 12 shuhoor.
3. Not counting any 13th full moons on our part is the same as the pre-islamic practice of An-naseee'u, as we delay the real first shahr of the year until what is actually the 2nd shahr after the 12th shahr has ended. Thereby, we circumvent God's count of twelve shuhoor.
4. We circumvent God's count of 12 shuhoor because for God to have taken into account, and to have counted all things means that he has never ignored any of his shuhoor either. So God's count/counting (3iddah) of shuhoor has to coincide with the number (3adad) of shuhoor that he made in the first place.
5. It is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something. I can have 8 oranges and only count 5, thereby ignoring 3 of them. But If i go to the store and buy 10 oranges and then I delcare that I have not ignored anything that I bought, when I count my oranges my count cannot be anything other than 10; by virtue of my statement that I have not ignored anything that I bought. And it is by virtue of the Quran's statement that God has counted and taken all things into account (72:28), and by virtue of logic that God would not ignore something that he made in the first place, that God cannot ignore the 13th full moons that he created. So if the Quran says God has been counting 12 shuhoor, it cannot be talking about full moons, because God's count of ALL THE SHUHOOR he has created HAS ALWAYS been 12.
6. And we are to imitate God's count of shuhoor in our deen.
7. The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.
Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
Quote from: progod on October 14, 2008, 01:13:35 AMAs far as your definition for haraam. You have no clue. The word can means restricted and sacred. And the only way you will understand this is by understanding how ihtiraam (from the same root) means respect. So don't argue with me on the meaning of harama, because you are pidgeon-holing the meaning unjustly.
As for your comment, about "haram" can mean "sacred" (making the meat of the pig potentially "sacred"), this is a perfect example of unintelligent and uncritical use of dictionaries. By the way "i7tiram" can NEVER mean "making something sacred". Its meaning of "respect" has to do with the meaning of "restricted" or "inviolable" so "i7tiram/respect of something" means "to not violate it". We even use this in English to say "respect the law" (not "make the law sacred"). The word "sacred" or "holy" in Arabic is "qudus".
Quote from: progod on October 14, 2008, 01:13:35 AM7. The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.
Just because you have a bias for an arbitrary 30 day Anwar month, it doesn't mean that everyone starts from a certain bias and works backwards to justify it from the great reading. The time of the restriction was found based 100% on what is learned from the great reading. It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.
Quote from: progod on October 14, 2008, 01:13:35 AMIt is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something.
Yes, this is indisputable and this is all that you needed to acknowledge. Now apart from the above, you can have your opinion about the population that the god counts out of but this opinion doesn't change the reality of what we can observe in the heavens and the earth. So, as far as your opinion goes we will just have to agree to disagree.
All your other comments have been repeatedly addressed and debunked in previous posts throughout this thread.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 12, 2008, 01:23:59 PM
2 - Why can a menstruating woman wait for a minimum of 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait a minimum of 88 days (3 lunar months)? The meaning of "lunar month" in 65:4 would result in a major inconsistency in al-quran, because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the minimum waiting period for menopausal women whose menopause is doubtful would be 88 days.
Again, THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION!
Minimum is NOT 56 days ? womens' menses can vary depending on the woman from once a week to once every few months. The ?average? is about once per month or 3 cycles in 3 months.
Quote from: Arnab on October 13, 2008, 12:52:28 PM
Whatever may be the prophetic significance of the passage its astronomical significance is clear: 840,057 days are precisely 2,300 solar years, or 28,447 lunar months, or 30,487 anomalistic months, the anomalistic month being the period in which the moon travels from perigee to perigee. It is the most perfect lunisolar cycle known, and restores the two great lights exactly to their former relationship.
lunar month x 28,447 = 2,299.999 solar years
Interesting...
lunar month x 12 x 309 lunar years = 299.799498 solar years
18:25 And they stayed in their cave three hundred years, and add nine.
300 solar years and add 9 for 309 lunar years
Quote from: ayman on October 14, 2008, 08:45:07 AM
It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.
What research? Like these animals which were hunted to near extinction...
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx)
http://www.oryxoman.com/oryxfacts.html
(http://www.oryxoman.com/images/thoryxwalking.jpg)
Birth SeasonOryx may calve in any month of the year but
there is a general pattern of births in the winter period December to April. This is thought to be largely the consequence of winter rains influencing conception.
Ayman,
QuoteAs for your comment, about "haram" can mean "sacred" (making the meat of the pig potentially "sacred"), this is a perfect example of unintelligent and uncritical use of dictionaries. By the way "i7tiram" can NEVER mean "making something sacred". Its meaning of "respect" has to do with the meaning of "restricted" or "inviolable" so "i7tiram/respect of something" means "to not violate it". We even use this in English to say "respect the law" (not "make the law sacred"). The word "sacred" or "holy" in Arabic is "qudus".
I personally think you need to think more on the meaning of holy/sacred and their implications. Their implications have to do with great respect. Yes, the meat of pig would be potentially sacred, if it were not called an abomination in the Quran. But if those verses are really saying that eating pig's meat is an abomination then we may have to rethink the tradtional Muslim opinion of pig's meat as being a vile item to more like a potentially holy/sacred item that we must not touch. But in my opinion I don't think it would be very logical to only make the pig's meat forbidden (that means bones, skin and fat are not) and not give the status of haraam, as holy/sacred, to the whole pig. So it is obvious that pig's meat is an abomination, not to be eaten by those who know God's law.
Quote from: progod on Yesterday at 06:13:35 PM
7. The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.Quote
Just because you have a bias for an arbitrary 30 day Anwar month, it doesn't mean that everyone starts from a certain bias and works backwards to justify it from the great reading. The time of the restriction was found based 100% on what is learned from the great reading. It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.
I think it's obvious to everyone from my quote above that I did not mentioned any 30 day months here, or Anwar months for that much. I would be glad to revisit that topic but let's keep things separate for the sake of clarity. We are dealing with your opinions on this subject now, and I am looking forward to revisting mine after we have exhuausted analysis on yours first. This is obviously an attempt at an unjustified attack on your part. And i think it's obvious that the Quran does not mention the protection of weak young animals (as merciful as that sounds) as a reason behind its restriction on hunting during the sacred/restricted months. You know just as well as i do that is totally extra-Quranic and non-quranic. But looking at what you've said I'd be curious to know when exactly is the time of restriction as you see it based on 100% of what you've learned from the Quran, having nothing to do with the extra-Quranic and non-Quranic hunting restrictions in most places around the world. Where are the Quranic verses that point to these shuhoor of restriction/sacredness and that give us the reasons you give us for the Quranic ban on hunting during these shuhoor? And can you provide them without extra commentary about the hunting restrictions found in most places around the world?
Quote from: progod on Yesterday at 06:13:35 PM
It is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something.QuoteYes, this is indisputable and this is all that you needed to acknowledge. Now apart from the above, you can have your opinion about the population that the god counts out of but this opinion doesn't change the reality of what we can observe in the heavens and the earth. So, as far as your opinion goes we will just have to agree to disagree.
That is a great way of dismissing everything else I've said and focusing on the obvious, all the while trying to associate buzz words like 'indisputable' to your opinions. As it concerns the population that God counts out of, you know well from 72:28 and from logic that it is illogical for God to have been always counting 12 shuhoor since he created the heavens and the earth when he has created some of those years with 13 shuhoor. You know that that means that means that God has been ignoring what He created in the first place. Of course we can agree to disagree and that is fine, but why can't you admit the lack of logic and the contradicton with 72:28 with your opinion on this issue?
Quote
All your other comments have been repeatedly addressed and debunked in previous posts throughout this thread.
These are just words, that have no backing. On this issue you have debunked none of my comments. You have only denied them, and tried to twist my words in order to confuse and distract the readers here. I am glad these distractions and intentional confusions are finally becoming obvious to everyone here.
I urge you to consider the fact that you are doing the same thing that the Talmudic/pre-Islamic Arab calendar did by ignoring the first shahr (in this case full moon) after the end of the 12th full moon, and thereby delaying it until the actual 2nd shahr. That is An-nasee'u and it is an additon to rejection/denial.
I think it has been made obvious from all I have written that the Quran does not mean full moon when it says shahr. But that is for each individual to be able to see on his/her own.
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace Anwar,
9:36 does not mention the absolute number of full-moons in a year but mentions count of full-moons. If God was talking about the total number of full-moons in a solar year, He would have said something like this:
"The number (3adad) of full-moons in a year is 12 every year for 2 years and 13 full-moons in the third year".
9:36 also mentions that the purpose of the count is for the hunting restriction (God counts a subset of four restricted shuhoor out of the count of 12), to give us a system/obligation to follow so we can practically implement the hunting restriction. The only way to implement the hunting restriction is to make sure the "shuhoor" are always synchronized with the seasons. Always counting only 12 full-moons out of a possible set of 13 ensures that the full-moons are always synchronized with the seasons, so hunting restriction is not violated.
The count could be any number from a set. If the total possible full-moons in a year is 13, then the count could be any number from 1 to 13. It is impossible to count 13 full-moons every year, so God counts only 12 full-moons out of a possible 13 in a solar year and makes it a system/obligation for us to follow the same count, in order to maintain synchronization between the full-moons and the seasons for the purposes of hunting restriction. The only way to maintain this synchronization is to always count only 12 full-moons in a solar year and not to count the 13th full-moon when it happens within a solar year.
You are confusing counting from a set with absolute number in a set. In 9:36, God is counting from a set, not giving us an absolute number in a set.
You still have not told us why God chose the count of restricted shuhoor to be four.
72:28 MENTIONS "3ADAD"/NUMBER OF ALL THINGS, NOT THEIR "3IDDAT"/COUNT.
YOUR THEORY ALSO COUNTS ONLY 12 "30 DAY MONTHS" IN A SOLAR YEAR AND SKIPS/IGNORES 1/6TH OF A "30 DAY MONTH" EVERY YEAR.
You are also ignoring 5-6 days every year to maintain the same synchronization between "months" and seasons. Count can be fractional too, so you are ignoring count of .17 of a 30 day month, out of a count of 12.17.
I can ask you the same question you have been asking. According to you, shahr means "30 day month". If that is so, then the absolute count of "30 day months" in a year is 12.17. Why is God not counting .17 of a month when He created it?
If you don't ignore the 5-6 days every year and instead count exactly 12 "30 day months" in a year, then you will have to skip an entire 13th "30 day month" every 6th year to maintain synchronization between the "months" and the seasons. Why would God not count this "30 day month" every 6 years when He created it?
The translation of "30 day month" you are proposing for "shahr" causes numerous irreconcilable contradictions and inconsistancies in al-quran, which have been repeatedly pointed out, and have still not been resolved. When you consider all the evidence from al-quran, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" without causing any contradiction.
Resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies caused by your interpretations and then we can discuss further. Until then we have to follow the best view and I am out of this dicussion.
39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Peace,
QuotePeace Anwar,
9:36 does not mention the absolute number of full-moons in a year but mentions count of full-moons. If God was talking about the total number of full-moons in a solar year, He would have said something like this:
"The number (3adad) of full-moons in a year is 12 every year for 2 years and 13 full-moons in the third year".
You've got to be kidding me. Why are you going backwards in this conversation? God counts everything he makes. Period. So if He were counting full moons and there are 13 full moons in any year, God would have been counting them. Otherwise you are saying that he is ignoring what he created in the first place. Why won't you get this?
Quote9:36 also mentions that the purpose of the count is for the hunting restriction (God counts a subset of four restricted shuhoor out of the count of 12), to give us a system/obligation to follow so we can practically implement the hunting restriction. The only way to implement the hunting restriction is to make sure the "shuhoor" are always synchronized with the seasons. Always counting only 12 full-moons out of a possible set of 13 ensures that the full-moons are always synchronized with the seasons, so hunting restriction is not violated.
Again there is no way you are going to take these extra-Quranic ideas about when to implement the ban on hunting during the holy/restricted shuhoor. I admitted that 4 restricted shuhoor is obviously both God's count and the actual number that God decided on. These two concepts of number and count are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are? I think you are confused on this issue and are just taking a side.
Quote
The count could be any number from a set. If the total possible full-moons in a year is 13, then the count could be any number from 1 to 13. It is impossible to count 13 full-moons every year, so God counts only 12 full-moons out of a possible 13 in a solar year and makes it a system/obligation for us to follow the same count, in order to maintain synchronization between the full-moons and the seasons for the purposes of hunting restriction. The only way to maintain this synchronization is to always count only 12 full-moons in a solar year and not to count the 13th full-moon when it happens within a solar year
.
Here come the claims saying that I said things that I didn't. It is definitely impossible to count 13 full moons every year. And that's because some years have 12 full moons and others 13. This is obvious. But for those consistently occuring years with 13 full moons, if God created them he has to be counting them, otherwise he is ingoring his creation. And that goes against logic and 72:28. You continue to imply only human action in couting. But I have already told you too many times that 9:36 is talking about God's count, and then implies that we imitate that count. So let me say this again, God's count. God's count. God's count. And in this case why does God need to syncronize the count of the full moons he created by ignoring the 13th full moons that he himself created in the first place. We are to follow God's lead when we count. And again it is absurd that God has been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created when he made the heavens, the earth and the moon. Please don't continue to say that I am implying that these 13th full moons occur every year. I never, ever implied that. But they do consistently occur and there is no way that God has been ignoring these consistently occuring 13th full moons to make His count 12. Why would he do that? And just as he would not do this, we are to follow suit and not do it either.
Quote
You are confusing counting from a set with absolute number in a set. In 9:36, God is counting from a set, not giving us an absolute number in a set.
Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 9:36. Isn't this as clear as daylight?
QuoteYou still have not told us why God chose the count of restricted shuhoor to be four.
And I still don't understand why I have to answer this question. Are there supposed to be more? Less? God said there are four and that's it for me. There's no taking away, adding or ignoring. There are four, God said so, and I dont see why I have to give you a reason for that? I think that is a question that you will have to read more of the Quran to get. Because I do not know why he made four of them. That's His choice.
Quote
72:28 MENTIONS "3ADAD"/NUMBER OF ALL THINGS, NOT THEIR "3IDDAT"/COUNT.
Exactly. The word for to count or to take into account here is AHSAA and God says that he has counted and taken into account the 3adad of all things. And as you have admitted, in those years with 13 full moons, 13 is the 3adad of the full moons. 72:28 says God counted (AHSAA) and has taken the 3adad of all things, even the 13th full moons, into account. So if He ignores those 13th full moons when they occur then he is not counting them or taking them into account. So firstly God counts and takes the number of all things into account. Secondly why would God have been ignoring the count of the 13th full moons that he created in the first place? He wouldn't.
QuoteYOUR THEORY ALSO COUNTS ONLY 12 "30 DAY MONTHS" IN A SOLAR YEAR AND SKIPS/IGNORES 1/6TH OF A "30 DAY MONTH" EVERY YEAR.
Are we talking about my theory now? Sounds like you wanna change the subject.
QuoteYou are also ignoring 5-6 days every year to maintain the same synchronization between "months" and seasons. Count can be fractional too, so you are ignoring count of .17 of a 30 day month, out of a count of 12.17.
Quote
I can ask you the same question you have been asking. According to you, shahr means "30 day month". If that is so, then the absolute count of "30 day months" in a year is 12.17. Why is God not counting .17 of a month when He created it?
I've explained this over and over again. God has been counting shuhoor? Right? Well, .17 of a shahr is not a shahr in any shape or form, and 5 or 6 days is not a 30 day-month (one of the alternate definitions of shahr) either. But you are changing the topic and you shouldn't be. And I'll warn anyone else that wants to change the topic as well, not to try to convolute this discussion. We will get to my theory but we must resolve all of the issues with this theory first. We are discussing the inconsistencies of the theory you believe in. We can discuss what you feel are the inconsistencies of mine once we finish discussing yours. One at a time is fair and just, and needed in order to maintain clarity.
QuoteIf you don't ignore the 5-6 days every year and instead count exactly 12 "30 day months" in a year, then you will have to skip an entire 13th "30 day month" every 6th year to maintain synchronization between the "months" and the seasons. Why would God not count this "30 day month" every 6 years when He created it?
What are you talking about? In addition to trying to change the subject you fail to understand that in 365 or 366 days there are only 12 30-day months to be counted. In no way will a month be added or ignored. The 5 or 6 days until the solstice are not a month or a shahr in any way. Not only is God saying that when he counts months/shahr he has been only counting 12, but since he only created 12 30-day shahr/months in 365 or 366 days God is counting all the shuhoor/months that he created in the first place. Those 5 or 6 days that we observe until the solstices or equinoxes, which are the real starters and enders of the year do not and never have consitituted a shahr. Remember in 9:36 God is counting shuhoor only, and nothing else. Also remember taht 5 or 6 days do not consistute a shahr, so whereas we are obligated to observe what God has created, these 5 to 6 days are irrelevent to the count of the shuhoor, but they are not to be skipped or ignored, because to start a new year we have to wait until the renewal of the solstices or equinoxes.
I decided to address what you thought were inconsistencies in my theory. But I hope you and others don't intend on continuing to change the subject trying to deflect attention off of this Quranically and logically flawed theory instead of dealing with the fact that it is illogical and unquranic for God to have been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created in some years and only counting twelve of them since he created the heavens, the earth and the moon.
QuoteThe translation of "30 day month" you are proposing for "shahr" causes numerous irreconcilable contradictions and inconsistancies in al-quran, which have been repeatedly pointed out, and have still not been resolved. When you consider all the evidence from al-quran, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" without causing any contradiction.
You seem to have your mind made up despite the illogical, unquranic and extra-quranic premises that this full-moon theory is based upon. And even despite the fact that this theory is the mirror image of the Talmudic/pre-islamic practice of delaying the 1st shahr afther the completion of the 12th shahr until the actual 2nd shahr whenever the the calendar threatened to fall out of line with the seasons.
Quote
Resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies caused by your interpretations and then we can discuss further. Until then we have to follow the best view and I am out of this dicussion.
This is a baseless attack on your part. You changed the topic to try to focus on my theory and deflect attention from your theory when your theory is the one that is being discussed. And then you threaten not to continue to answer the serious questions about the inconsistencies of your theory. Why? Because you have made up your mind despite the illogic of your own beliefs? Believe what you will. You are enttitled to that, but admit the inconsistencies and that you have no answer for them. Don't tell me that you won't talk because of the beliefs that I hold, which we weren't even discussing.
Quote39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Exactly. Thank you for that.
Godbless,
Anwar
Quote from: progod on October 14, 2008, 04:50:57 PM
.
Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 9:36. Isn't this as clear as daylight?
Brother Anwar salam
If God has to count 12 out 12, and 13 out of 13, in some years , because according to you, HE has to count his creation, Then,
What is the prupose of counting out from a set?siki
Quote from: progod on October 14, 2008, 04:50:57 PM
Peace,
You've got to be kidding me. Why are you going backwards in this conversation? God counts everything he makes. Period. So if He were counting full moons and there are 13 full moons in any year, God would have been counting them. Otherwise you are saying that he is ignoring what he created in the first place. Why won't you get this?
Again there is no way you are going to take these extra-Quranic ideas about when to implement the ban on hunting during the holy/restricted shuhoor. I admitted that 4 restricted shuhoor is obviously both God's count and the actual number that God decided on. These two concepts of number and count are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are? I think you are confused on this issue and are just taking a side.
.
Here come the claims saying that I said things that I didn't. It is definitely impossible to count 13 full moons every year. And that's because some years have 12 full moons and others 13. This is obvious. But for those consistently occuring years with 13 full moons, if God created them he has to be counting them, otherwise he is ingoring his creation. And that goes against logic and 72:28. You continue to imply only human action in couting. But I have already told you too many times that 9:36 is talking about God's count, and then implies that we imitate that count. So let me say this again, God's count. God's count. God's count. And in this case why does God need to syncronize the count of the full moons he created by ignoring the 13th full moons that he himself created in the first place. We are to follow God's lead when we count. And again it is absurd that God has been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created when he made the heavens, the earth and the moon. Please don't continue to say that I am implying that these 13th full moons occur every year. I never, ever implied that. But they do consistently occur and there is no way that God has been ignoring these consistently occuring 13th full moons to make His count 12. Why would he do that? And just as he would not do this, we are to follow suit and not do it either.
Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 9:36. Isn't this as clear as daylight?
And I still don't understand why I have to answer this question. Are there supposed to be more? Less? God said there are four and that's it for me. There's no taking away, adding or ignoring. There are four, God said so, and I dont see why I have to give you a reason for that? I think that is a question that you will have to read more of the Quran to get. Because I do not know why he made four of them. That's His choice.
Exactly. The word for to count or to take into account here is AHSAA and God says that he has counted and taken into account the 3adad of all things. And as you have admitted, in those years with 13 full moons, 13 is the 3adad of the full moons. 72:28 says God counted (AHSAA) and has taken the 3adad of all things, even the 13th full moons, into account. So if He ignores those 13th full moons when they occur then he is not counting them or taking them into account. So firstly God counts and takes the number of all things into account. Secondly why would God have been ignoring the count of the 13th full moons that he created in the first place? He wouldn't.
Are we talking about my theory now? Sounds like you wanna change the subject.
I've explained this over and over again. God has been counting shuhoor? Right? Well, .17 of a shahr is not a shahr in any shape or form, and 5 or 6 days is not a 30 day-month (one of the alternate definitions of shahr) either. But you are changing the topic and you shouldn't be. And I'll warn anyone else that wants to change the topic as well, not to try to convolute this discussion. We will get to my theory but we must resolve all of the issues with this theory first. We are discussing the inconsistencies of the theory you believe in. We can discuss what you feel are the inconsistencies of mine once we finish discussing yours. One at a time is fair and just, and needed in order to maintain clarity.
What are you talking about? In addition to trying to change the subject you fail to understand that in 365 or 366 days there are only 12 30-day months to be counted. In no way will a month be added or ignored. The 5 or 6 days until the solstice are not a month or a shahr in any way. Not only is God saying that when he counts months/shahr he has been only counting 12, but since he only created 12 30-day shahr/months in 365 or 366 days God is counting all the shuhoor/months that he created in the first place. Those 5 or 6 days that we observe until the solstices or equinoxes, which are the real starters and enders of the year do not and never have consitituted a shahr. Remember in 9:36 God is counting shuhoor only, and nothing else. Also remember taht 5 or 6 days do not consistute a shahr, so whereas we are obligated to observe what God has created, these 5 to 6 days are irrelevent to the count of the shuhoor, but they are not to be skipped or ignored, because to start a new year we have to wait until the renewal of the solstices or equinoxes.
I decided to address what you thought were inconsistencies in my theory. But I hope you and others don't intend on continuing to change the subject trying to deflect attention off of this Quranically and logically flawed theory instead of dealing with the fact that it is illogical and unquranic for God to have been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created in some years and only counting twelve of them since he created the heavens, the earth and the moon.
You seem to have your mind made up despite the illogical, unquranic and extra-quranic premises that this full-moon theory is based upon. And even despite the fact that this theory is the mirror image of the Talmudic/pre-islamic practice of delaying the 1st shahr afther the completion of the 12th shahr until the actual 2nd shahr whenever the the calendar threatened to fall out of line with the seasons.
This is a baseless attack on your part. You changed the topic to try to focus on my theory and deflect attention from your theory when your theory is the one that is being discussed. And then you threaten not to continue to answer the serious questions about the inconsistencies of your theory. Why? Because you have made up your mind despite the illogic of your own beliefs? Believe what you will. You are enttitled to that, but admit the inconsistencies and that you have no answer for them. Don't tell me that you won't talk because of the beliefs that I hold, which we weren't even discussing.
Exactly. Thank you for that.
Godbless,
Anwar
:( What a Generous waste of talent, and efforts .
siki
Peace be upon all,
I have also noticed that many of the questions of inconsistency with 'month' have not been answered clearly and precisely. Maybe some confuse the issue of posting a reply with actually giving a clear answer, they do not equate automatically.
One of those questions was is it allowed for the 4 ashhur hurum to change from year to year? Someone even suggested that they CAN be arbitrary. Well here's what our Lord says and that's all that matters:
9:36-37 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them four are hurum. That is the straight/valuable obligation/ system so DO NOT OPPRESS/ WRONG yourselves within them. And fight the mushrikeen completely as they are fighting you all completely and know that the god is with the prudent/ careful/ fearing. The NASEE is only an increase in DISBELIEF, those who have disbelieved go astray with it making it lawful an aam and making it unlawful an aam in order to correspond with/ agree with the count of what the god prohibited so they make lawful what the god prohibited. Adorned for them is the EVIL of their works. And the god does not guide the disbelieving people. [emphasis is mine]
Clearly from these verses, the 4 shahur are CONSISTENT EVERY YEAR and should NOT be violated. NEVER could they be arbitrary much less arbitrary from person to person. Maybe this is part of why the god mentions from the beginning that this is HIS COUNT and WE MUST follow it. If this wasn't the case, that we don't have to follow it in someway, then He wouldn't continue this topic with the issue of the nasee and calling it an INCREASE in DISBELIEF, how much stronger can this be expressed. If any weren't clear on the meaning of nasee the god is also actually explaining what it is in the verse. HE also describes this as EVIL work.
So no one has to worry about MAN's fancy words and arguments, the god has been very clear about what HE wants our obligation to be. The next natural question is WHAT makes them hurum, meaning how do we NOT oppress ourselves within them? No need for human interpretation and guessing.
5:94-95 O you who have believed, the god will surely TEST YOU by something of the game that your hands and your spears obtain/reach that the god knows/ make evident those who fear Him unseen. And whoever transgresses after that for him is a painful punishment. O you who have believed, DO NOT kill the game while you are prohibited/ restricted (hurum). And whoever kills it intentionally from you then a penalty equivalent of what he killed from the na'am judging by two just ones from you a gift reaching the base or an expiation the feeding of the poor or justice of that fasting, in order that he taste the consequence of his matter. The god has pardoned what is past but whoever returns then the god will exact retribution from him and the god is mighty owner of retribution.
He has also said clearly:
5:2 O you who have believed DO NOT violate/ make lawful the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the hadya nor the qa'laaid nor those secure of the bayt haraam seeking fadl from their Lord and pleasure and when you are ALLOWED then HUNT...
So when we are hurum and we are hurum when the 4 ashhur hurum have come, then we are not to kill the game but we will be tested during this time. Part of this test is not only to acknowledge the hurum yet transgress therein but an increase in disbelief is to CHANGE it altogether. There is a painful punishment awaiting those who do this so again, another strong statement and not something to be taken lightly by ANY means.
Of course the god knows about a 13th full moon occurring during a solar year which is the only year to follow so that the seasons remain consistent and thus the 4 hurum but HE is telling us to only KEEP COUNTING 12. It's not actually IGNORED, it's there and it's COUNTED but counted again as a new number 1 instead of a 13 which would inevitably CHANGE the 4 hurum from year to year which is NOT ALLOWED. I didn't say so the god did. This 13th full moon is a TEST. How? When we try to use it to do nasee (or any other way to make this postponement like following a lunar calendar) and change what the god made unlawful.
AGAIN, the god knows the 13th full moon is there and so do we but HE made it clear that we only KEEP COUNTING 12, as He's been counting, so that WE DON'T violate what He prohibited! This extra full moon is a test for people just like the test of the game that their hands and spears reach but yet they must fear the god unseen.
This whole issue, definitely at the time of the reading and still today, seems to be a big TEST for people. They don't want to be restricted in this way and will try to find ways to violate this command yet this is EVIL with the god and earns His punishment. This is just like many of the other tests out there for us, like life and death itself, whether we will believe or we don't.
Who here is really willing to say that the 4 ashhur hurum have NOTHING to do with hunting and that it can be inconsistent from year to year?
Another angle to this is this verse;
41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons/ remote parts and within themselves until it is made clear for them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is over all things a witness?
If we make the observation that these 4 ashhur hurum also coincide with certain circumstances related to game animals which is NOT a coincidence, and it helps us understand more about these 4 hurum then we can use that. Whether we start with the god's laws as written in the book or we sincerely look at His signs in the creation and reflect we should also find consistency between the two since HE is the author of both. We all can observe that the animals' behavior is not CHANGING from year to year.
When we look at this verse:
2:278-279 O you who have believed, fear the god and give up what remains of ribaa if you were believers. And if you do no, then be informed of a war from the god and His messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principals, do not oppress nor are you being oppressed.
Then we look to what is happening to interest and gambling based economies we can observe that the god spoke the truth, that His laws don't change, He means what He says and He doesn't break His promises.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 15, 2008, 06:11:16 AM
Peace be upon all,
I have also noticed that many of the questions of inconsistency with 'month' have not been answered clearly and precisely. Maybe some confuse the issue of posting a reply with actually giving a clear answer, they do not equate automatically.
One of those questions was is it allowed for the 4 ashhur hurum to change from year to year? Someone even suggested that they CAN be arbitrary. Well here's what our Lord says and that's all that matters:
9:36-37 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them four are hurum. That is the straight/valuable obligation/ system so DO NOT OPPRESS/ WRONG yourselves within them. And fight the mushrikeen completely as they are fighting you all completely and know that the god is with the prudent/ careful/ fearing. The NASEE is only an increase in DISBELIEF, those who have disbelieved go astray with it making it lawful an aam and making it unlawful an aam in order to correspond with/ agree with the count of what the god prohibited so they make lawful what the god prohibited. Adorned for them is the EVIL of their works. And the god does not guide the disbelieving people. [emphasis is mine]
Clearly from these verses, the 4 shahur are CONSISTENT EVERY YEAR and should NOT be violated. NEVER could they be arbitrary much less arbitrary from person to person. Maybe this is part of why the god mentions from the beginning that this is HIS COUNT and WE MUST follow it. If this wasn't the case, that we don't have to follow it in someway, then He wouldn't continue this topic with the issue of the nasee and calling it an INCREASE in DISBELIEF, how much stronger can this be expressed. If any weren't clear on the meaning of nasee the god is also actually explaining what it is in the verse. HE also describes this as EVIL work.
So no one has to worry about MAN's fancy words and arguments, the god has been very clear about what HE wants our obligation to be. The next natural question is WHAT makes them hurum, meaning how do we NOT oppress ourselves within them? No need for human interpretation and guessing.
5:94-95 O you who have believed, the god will surely TEST YOU by something of the game that your hands and your spears obtain/reach that the god knows/ make evident those who fear Him unseen. And whoever transgresses after that for him is a painful punishment. O you who have believed, DO NOT kill the game while you are prohibited/ restricted (hurum). And whoever kills it intentionally from you then a penalty equivalent of what he killed from the na'am judging by two just ones from you a gift reaching the base or an expiation the feeding of the poor or justice of that fasting, in order that he taste the consequence of his matter. The god has pardoned what is past but whoever returns then the god will exact retribution from him and the god is mighty owner of retribution.
He has also said clearly:
5:2 O you who have believed DO NOT violate/ make lawful the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the hadya nor the qa'laaid nor those secure of the bayt haraam seeking fadl from their Lord and pleasure and when you are ALLOWED then HUNT...
So when we are hurum and we are hurum when the 4 ashhur hurum have come, then we are not to kill the game but we will be tested during this time. Part of this test is not only to acknowledge the hurum yet transgress therein but an increase in disbelief is to CHANGE it altogether. There is a painful punishment awaiting those who do this so again, another strong statement and not something to be taken lightly by ANY means.
Of course the god knows about a 13th full moon occurring during a solar year which is the only year to follow so that the seasons remain consistent and thus the 4 hurum but HE is telling us to only KEEP COUNTING 12. It's not actually IGNORED, it's there and it's COUNTED but counted again as a new number 1 instead of a 13 which would inevitably CHANGE the 4 hurum from year to year which is NOT ALLOWED. I didn't say so the god did. This 13th full moon is a TEST. How? When we try to use it to do nasee (or any other way to make this postponement like following a lunar calendar) and change what the god made unlawful.
AGAIN, the god knows the 13th full moon is there and so do we but HE made it clear that we only KEEP COUNTING 12, as He's been counting, so that WE DON'T violate what He prohibited! This extra full moon is a test for people just like the test of the game that their hands and spears reach but yet they must fear the god unseen.
This whole issue, definitely at the time of the reading and still today, seems to be a big TEST for people. They don't want to be restricted in this way and will try to find ways to violate this command yet this is EVIL with the god and earns His punishment. This is just like many of the other tests out there for us, like life and death itself, whether we will believe or we don't.
Who here is really willing to say that the 4 ashhur hurum have NOTHING to do with hunting and that it can be inconsistent from year to year?
Another angle to this is this verse;
41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons/ remote parts and within themselves until it is made clear for them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is over all things a witness?
If we make the observation that these 4 ashhur hurum also coincide with certain circumstances related to game animals which is NOT a coincidence, and it helps us understand more about these 4 hurum then we can use that. Whether we start with the god's laws as written in the book or we sincerely look at His signs in the creation and reflect we should also find consistency between the two since HE is the author of both. We all can observe that the animals' behavior is not CHANGING from year to year.
When we look at this verse:
2:278-279 O you who have believed, fear the god and give up what remains of ribaa if you were believers. And if you do no, then be informed of a war from the god and His messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principals, do not oppress nor are you being oppressed.
Then we look to what is happening to interest and gambling based economies we can observe that the god spoke the truth, that His laws don't change, He means what He says and He doesn't break His promises.
Umm Tariq
Masha'allah.
umme tariq
Thanks, I was waiting for someone to clear this issue, as I was myself not very clear about this.
siki
Siki,
What a vile and mean attack. You have done nothing here but spit venom to counter the good sense that I make, the good sense that you and others don't want to understand. But that is on you, not me. Anyway I am going to have to resist the temptation to continue to post on this topic for a long time. It takes up too much time and returns very little divedends as it concerns progression in these discussions. I hope the silent readers are gaining insight from my comments. It is clear to me now that those who oppose me on this topic after all the time and effort I have taken to explain the specifics of this topic, oppose me as a point of personal pride or out of plain old stubborness. Now I'm sure some of you will respond to this post trying to throw these comments back at me with some extra insults, innapropirate comments, twisting of my points or some of the normal long winded vitriol. If you don't understand my points by now, whover you are, I forgive you for that. So don't fret. I honestly don't see anyone budging on any of these issues because there is too much evasion of actual questions and confusion of the issues intentionally being injected into this conversation. So, I just hope that after I withdrawal from this conversation that my fellow Quranist Muslims in this conversation don't foolishly declare victory in a show of ignorance and immaturity, or dedicate themselves to bashing me or misleading and misinforming readers about my conclusions on this issue. But if all of you want to continue discussing the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' theory, feel welcome to do this with absolutely no more opposition from me. And naturally that is going to only apply to those who were actually giving my comments some importance or consideration. If you weren't, then what I just said won't even concern you. I have a family to attend to in my free time, and I have completed the goals with which I got involved in this discusson. So good day to all and as always . . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
Peace,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 15, 2008, 06:11:16 AM
I have also noticed that many of the questions of inconsistency with 'month' have not been answered clearly and precisely. Maybe some confuse the issue of posting a reply with actually giving a clear answer, they do not equate automatically.
One of those questions was is it allowed for the 4 ashhur hurum to change from year to year? Someone even suggested that they CAN be arbitrary. Well here's what our Lord says and that's all that matters:
Topic is on full moon theory ? why change subject ask questions on other interpretations and skip answering questions pertaining to inconsistencies on full moon?
4 ashhur hurum ? how much time exactly is that between 4 full moons?
Is that 3 lunar months, according to your earlier calculations, right?
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 10, 2008, 04:36:00 AM
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
* Men who take vows fast 4 months... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
* Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months... wait 2 full moons = 1 month (in the minimum)
* Travel the earth 4 months...travel for 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
If so which 3 months, during the winter when these animals breed?
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx)
http://www.oryxoman.com/oryxfacts.html
Birth SeasonOryx may calve in any month of the year but there is a general pattern of births in the winter period December to April. This is thought to be largely the consequence of winter rains influencing conception.
Lastly, ignoring the 13th lunar month every 3 years is no different than intercalation or adding a month only they acknowledged and gave it a name while you simply skip it.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/calendar/intercalation.html
lunar month x 37 = 2.99152681 solar years (skip/ignore 1 makes 36)
Quote from: progod on October 15, 2008, 11:00:22 AM
Siki,
What a vile and mean attack. You have done nothing here but spit venom to counter the good sense that I make, the good sense that you and others don't want to understand. But that is on you, not me. Anyway I am going to have to resist the temptation to continue to post on this topic for a long time. It takes up too much time and returns very little divedends as it concerns progression in these discussions. I hope the silent readers are gaining insight from my comments. It is clear to me now that those who oppose me on this topic after all the time and effort I have taken to explain the specifics of this topic, oppose me as a point of personal pride or out of plain old stubborness. Now I'm sure some of you will respond to this post trying to throw these comments back at me with some extra insults, innapropirate comments, twisting of my points or some of the normal long winded vitriol. If you don't understand my points by now, whover you are, I forgive you for that. So don't fret. I honestly don't see anyone budging on any of these issues because there is too much evasion of actual questions and confusion of the issues intentionally being injected into this conversation. So, I just hope that after I withdrawal from this conversation that my fellow Quranist Muslims in this conversation don't foolishly declare victory in a show of ignorance and immaturity, or dedicate themselves to bashing me or misleading and misinforming readers about my conclusions on this issue. But if all of you want to continue discussing the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' theory, feel welcome to do this with absolutely no more opposition from me. And naturally that is going to only apply to those who were actually giving my comments some importance or consideration. If you weren't, then what I just said won't even concern you. I have a family to attend to in my free time, and I have completed the goals with which I got involved in this discusson. So good day to all and as always . . . .
:sun: Godbless,
Anwar
God bless you brother, it had been a pleasure having you around this thread .
Had you not been fighting tooth and nail on this thread I would have been a little less convinced about Aymans theory. Indeed it is quite reassuring that even you, with your best efforts could not refute with any significant argument.
Thanks, :handshake: once again for all your hard work, and please dont take any thing personal, I have been evaluating every single argument with absolute neutrality to find the truth.
peace
siki
Quote from: siki on October 15, 2008, 01:34:39 PM
God bless you brother, it had been a pleasure having you around this thread .
Had you not been fighting tooth and nail on this thread I would have been a little less convinced about Aymans theory. Indeed it is quite reassuring that even you, with your best efforts could not refute with any significant argument.
Thanks, :handshake: once again for all your hard work, and please dont take any thing personal, I have been evaluating every single argument with absolute neutrality to find the truth.
peace
siki
Salaam Siki,
It?s one thing to be a bystander and claim you have made an evaluation. Do some hard work, research of your own and you may find the truth. Anwar has done has done that and, although I don?t wholly agree with him, he has made some very valid points. You bring your arguments in your own words and disprove his points with logic if you can, let's see you fighting tooth and nail and what you come up with.
Thanks Nun deplume and Anwar for bringing very valid points. Although they may fall on deaf ears here they are not wasted.
:peace:
Peace Nun,
I think that you seeing an inconsistency between how "full-moon" and "menstruations" are used as events for timing is a matter of your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, if you want to keep on endlessly repeating the same exact opinion, then just refer with a link to any one of your dozen or so debunked posts instead of crowding the thread with useless repetition. Moving on to other issues would be a more productive use of the reader's time and would give you a better chance to see the whole picture. So with this in mind, let's move to another mistake that you made as a result of not properly reading my article:
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 15, 2008, 11:04:52 AMIf so which 3 months, during the winter when these animals breed?
If you read the article carefully, then you would have seen that the hunting restriction is not about breeding and it is not during winter. According to the great reading, the hunting restriction is during the hottest time of the year (it lasts the four full-moons after the summer solstice). If you study the general patterns in nature, then you will see that this is logical for the protection of young animals. The majority of game animals give birth in the mid spring - early summer timeframe and their mortality rate follows what is called a "bathtub" curve. Right after they are born, the biggest threat to them is dying naturally from diseases and birth defects. Once they start walking and venturing away from their home by summer then, without hunting restrictions, the biggest threat becomes human hunters. By fall, young animals are old and wise enough to fend for themselves and the hunting restriction can be lifted. Summer is also the time when crops and livestock are more plentiful so this gives people who may rely on hunting for sustenance other means to survive.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Last questions only for clarity and we?ll leave it with agree to disagree...
Quote from: ayman on October 15, 2008, 07:56:20 PM
According to the great reading, the hunting restriction is during the hottest time of the year (it lasts the four full-moons after the summer solstice).
4 full-moons equates to ? lunar months x 3 = 88.59177 days
Correct?
Quote from: ayman on October 15, 2008, 07:56:20 PM
Summer is also the time when crops and livestock are more plentiful so this gives people who may rely on hunting for sustenance other means to survive.
Also, which summer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 15, 2008, 11:04:52 AM
Peace,
Topic is on full moon theory ? why change subject ask questions on other interpretations and skip answering questions pertaining to inconsistencies on full moon?
I wasn't trying to change the subject but merely responding to a recent post where someone questioned whether the 4 hurum had anything to do with hunting. This IMPORTANT part of this topic of 'shahr' must have gotten swept under the carpet a bit but it can't. I actually addressed it before as well so it was always a part of this discussion.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 15, 2008, 11:04:52 AM
4 ashhur hurum ? how much time exactly is that between 4 full moons?
Is that 3 lunar months, according to your earlier calculations, right?
Alhamdulillah you finally understand that when we say '4 full moons' we are using it as a MARKER and looking to the time period 'in between', alhamdulillah. You yourself posted my earlier conclusions so that answers your second question and NOTE that I put 'in the minimum' case, we covered various cases earlier as well.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 15, 2008, 11:04:52 AM
Lastly, ignoring the 13th lunar month every 3 years is no different than intercalation or adding a month only they acknowledged and gave it a name while you simply skip it.
This is also part of why I had to post about the hunting part of the restriction (hurum). I explained we are not necessarily 'skipping' or 'ignoring' this 13th FULL MOON but we simply RESTART the count after we have counted 12 full moons just like the god said is a 'straight/ valuable obligation/system'. It makes perfect sense to me that there is a difference between a 'count of something' and a 'number of something' and that the god is being PRECISE when He uses the terminology that He does. I notice that in English sometimes we get confused and these differences go to the wayside but not so in the great reading. If we do that with the great reading, WE are making a big mistake.
So for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way. Please reread the post and if you like you can answer the question I asked near the end of it.
Also Nun, we have been through this discussion for a long while now yet if you still feel that there are inconsistencies with the 'full moon' theory then please just restate them. Remember I began my discussion with you specifically so I can see your point of view and up until now, it has only convinced me that the view you expound is the weak one so I found no grounds to change my view about 'full moon'. Please don't take this as a personal attack on you, it's not, it's the opinion that I find no real support for from the great reading. Maybe on another topic we would agree wholeheartedly that's not what's important, it's trying to reach the truth which inherently doesn't fear investigation, doesn't bring inconsistencies and contradictions and is usually simple. I am sure that most of us here are tired of the lies being propagated in the name of the god so we just want to be certain from now on and take actions based on SURE knowledge not conjecture.
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 16, 2008, 12:16:00 AM4 full-moons equates to ? lunar months x 3 = 88.59177 days
Correct?
Yes.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 16, 2008, 12:16:00 AMAlso, which summer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Umm Tariq,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 16, 2008, 04:51:28 AMSo for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way.
Sister, the occasional 13th full moon is not counted because as per 9:36 and the meaning of the word count (counting out a of a population), we must count only 12 full-moons in a year out of the possible 12 or 13. So we have to skip counting the 13th completely. If we start recounting with the 13th as 1 then the seasons will be out of sync and we would have circumvented the god's command to count only 12 by calling the 13th "1". I just thought this may have needed clarification.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Quote from: ayman on October 16, 2008, 08:51:10 AM
Yes.
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Phases of the Moon
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php
2008 FULL MOON DATES 8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?
IF events are on June 17, does the
not counted full moon of June 18, 2008
count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2:234
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 16, 2008, 09:11:31 PMThanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Phases of the Moon
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?
They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 16, 2008, 09:11:31 PMIF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2:234
The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 9:36-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
On the other hand, as far as waiting periods for marriage there is no skipping since we are simply to count 4 full-moon events + 10 days (i.e., until the crescent).
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Nun salam
I posted the below quote some 20 pages back , probably when you were sick, and hence missed it.
Although brohter Ayman has posted enough clarifications, I am requoting just in case it might help in improving your understanding.
quote.
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
siki
Quote from: siki on October 17, 2008, 02:23:55 AM
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
siki
Sun when setting is a continuous process similar to full moon, so how can you precisely pinpoint the state of the sun for the end of the fast? If you mean after the sun set, then when after the sunset ? Once sun is set falls the night or in the middle of the sunset which is like witnessing moon in the middle of it changing its status
QuoteIf long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all
Humans are so self cantered whereas God is the most aware of all, fasting in winter is like no fasting for you but not for others see below:
::
Quote from: Rajah on September 10, 2008, 10:56:05 PM
Hello all,
Well it makes sense that ramadan should start earlier as it it were to cross over to the cooler months nearing winter, it would be very dangerous. For the cooler months we need food (thermogenic-yes we need food all year round too) and shelter and maybe the skins/furs of animals as extra clothings to keep warm. Well one should remember quran was revealed about 1200 years ago and the message had remained the same and also generations way way way before that also would have had such a similar Book Of God for their use. Of course the state of things now is quite different in terms in clothing etc, but there's no guarantee.
BUT now, we need proof. Hopefully anyone of us would be able to come up with the answer.
salaam.....
But for those who suffer from the shortage of food all seasons there is no debate :hmm may be one of the aim is for us to feel how bad it is to be without food in the winter or in the summer.
QuoteThe guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
This is what I call cut and past to your liking.
:peace:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on October 16, 2008, 11:12:07 PM
They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 9:36-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South Hemisphere
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North Hemisphere
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Actually, I remember being awed by the skipped/not counted 13th full moon on June 18, 2008 this year.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
There's no better time to see it. The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.
Also see 13-moon Calendar with only difference being you have a lunar phase called no-name/ignore.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+13-Moon+Calendar+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
Peace siki,
Quote from: siki on October 17, 2008, 02:23:55 AM
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
People in Chicago (summer) and Buenos Aires (winter) would see the same big RED moon skipped on June 18, 2008.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
A picture of the Full Moon - July 18, 2008
Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere http://www.flickr.com/photos/avatar1/2681624896
A picture of the Full Moon - January 22, 2008
Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosenow_photography/2211281625/
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2211281625_c4c8b11b41.jpg?v=0)
Above are nothing special NOR are they RED only regular full moons seen in both hemispheres when moon is opposite earth/sun.
(http://www.curriki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Coll_Athabasca/Unit4%2DLesson3PhasesoftheMoon/phasesMoon.jpg)
[2:185] "Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
Peace
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 01:40:36 PM2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South Hemisphere
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North Hemisphere
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Actually, I remember being awed by the skipped/not counted 13th full moon on June 18, 2008 which was HUGE!
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
There's no better time to see it. The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.
Both the full-moons before and after the summer solstice will have the large red moon appearance. However, remember that the term "ramadan" has two connotations:
1. Intense heat (the primary meaning).
2. The color red (the secondary meaning).
While the full-moon before the summer solstice may appear large and red, only the full-moon after the solstice will be BOTH in the period of intense heat and appear large and red. This is also perfectly in line with counting only 12 full-moons and not counting the occasional 13th full-moon, which would be the one before the summer solstice.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 01:40:36 PMAlso see 13-moon Calendar with only difference being you have a lunar phase called no-name/ignore.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+13-Moon+Calendar+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
This is not about calendars. I never proposed any calendar. However, there is nothing that prevents you or anyone from making and proposing a calendar based on the article.
This is about properly counting natural cosming phenomena in order not to violate the restrictions on hunting. We are to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons every single solar year regardless of whether we see 12 or 13. The traditional sectarian calendar will actually have some solar years with 13 full-moons. So their's is actually a 13-moon calendar as you describe but they circumvent the god's restriction by calling the "13" as 1, or 2,...12 depending on when it occurs within their arbitrary calendar.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on October 17, 2008, 02:02:00 PM
Peace Nun,
Both the full-moons before and after the summer solstice will have the large red moon appearance. However, remember that the term "ramadan" has two connotations:
1. Intense heat (the primary meaning).
2. The color red (the secondary meaning).
While the full-moon before the summer solstice may appear large and red, only the full-moon after the solstice will be BOTH in the period of intense heat and appear large and red. This is also perfectly in line with counting only 12 full-moons and not counting the occasional 13th full-moon, which would be the one before the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
What was large and red about it; typical full moon?
Full Moon - July 18, 2008http://flickr.com/photos/texaseagle/2681791144/
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2681791144_28e620fff5.jpg?v=0)
The skipped/not counted one on June 18 was HUGE; freaked me out, thought it was on a collision course with earth...lol
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Peace Nun,
Here is an actual picture of the scorching full-moon the night of July 17th-18th (remember that the "midnight" start of the new day is arbitrary and in the great reading the day starts with day break) that sister Marie took herself.
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9422/pleinelune2008002ne5.jpg)
Taken from:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=17008.msg172650#msg172650
Notice that it takes on an a striking orange hue because the picture seems to have been taken after a while from its rising. Had sister Marie taken the picture a little earlier then it would have appeared more red. Generally, the lower it is on the horizon or the more dusty is the atmosphere (such as in the desert of Arabia), the more red it would appear.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 01:53:14 PMPeople in Chicago (summer) and Buenos Aires (winter) would see the same big RED moon skipped on June 18, 2008.
It is not the same. Please read patiently the article that you provided:
?The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.?Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 01:53:14 PMA picture of the Full Moon - July 18, 2008 Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
A picture of the Full Moon - January 22, 2008 Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
Above are nothing special NOR are they RED only regular full moons seen in both hemispheres when moon is opposite earth/sun.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 02:16:19 PMWhat was large and red about it; typical full moon?
Full Moon - July 18, 2008
The skipped/not counted one on June 18 was HUGE; freaked me out, thought it was on a collision course with earth...lol
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
If you notice, the picture from NASA was taken when the full-moon was very low behind the trees. Even the full-moon on the night of June 18th will appear white like other regular full moons after it has risen enough in the sky by the middle of the night. Remember that what is special about the solstice full-moon is that it takes a lower path than other full moons. So for the first few hours from its rise and last few hours before it sets, it is hanging very low and this is what gives it the reddish color.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 01:53:14 PM[2:185] "Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
This is baseless since you don?t seem to know the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? and are thus unable to translate it.
Here is an actual picture of the scorching full-moon the night of July 17th-18th (remember that the "midnight" start of the new day is arbitrary and in the great reading the day starts with day break) that sister Marie took herself.
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9422/pleinelune2008002ne5.jpg)
Taken from:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=17008.msg172650#msg172650
Notice that it takes on a striking orange hue because the picture seems to have been taken after a while from its rising. Had sister Marie taken the picture a little earlier then it would have appeared more red. Generally, the lower it is on the horizon or the more dusty is the atmosphere (such as in the desert of Arabia), the more red it would appear.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Full moons come in all sorts of colors and names...
http://www.farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-names
July 18, 2008 (Ramadan North) was not a moon illusion (obvious from that picture).
Ignoring 13th ?no-name? is no different than intercalation and did not count largest scorching full moon illusion this year.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Quote from: ayman on October 17, 2008, 04:28:18 PM
This is baseless since you don?t seem to know the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? and are thus unable to translate it.
I see, you are back to acting the Pompous Sheik (great pseudonym if you ever want to change)... lol :laugh:
People fasting during Ramadan North
People fasting during Ramadan South
Fasting 4 months and 3 months for same offense/vow committed on different dates
Full moon illusions happen periodically during the seasons at different months
Here is one during mid September 2008 in Southern Hemisphere...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24363112-5006784,00.html
For reasons above and others stated prior I have to disagree with "baseless" conjecture shahr/full moon.
(http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6256089,00.jpg)
PeaceFly me to the moon ...
Peace Nun,
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 05:36:05 PMFull moons come in all sorts of colors and names...
http://www.farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-names
July 18, 2008 (Ramadan North) was not a moon illusion (obvious from that picture).
Ignoring 13th ?no-name? is no different than intercalation and did not count largest scorching full moon illusion this year.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
As I said, you assume that "ramadan" is meaningless despite that I already explained it and that you can look it up in dictionaries. The "ramadan/scorching full-moon" is about BOTH heat and red color. Only the solstice full-moon after the summer solstice satisfies both.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 05:36:05 PMI see, you are back to acting the Pompous Sheik (great pseudonym if you ever want to change)... lol :laugh:
Pompous Sheik, now that is a great idea for a Halloween costume! :laugh:
But seriously, it is better than ignoring the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 and assuming that it is meaningless.
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 05:36:05 PMPeople fasting during Ramadan North
People fasting during Ramadan South
Fasting 4 months and 3 months for same offense/vow committed on different dates
Full moon illusions happen periodically during the seasons at different months
No, only the full-moon around the summer solstice take the lowest path accross the horizon. You are contradicting the very article from NASA that you brought about the solitice moon being special:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 05:36:05 PMHere is one during mid September 2008 in Southern Hemisphere...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24363112-5006784,00.html
For reasons above and others stated prior I have to disagree with "baseless" conjecture shahr/full moon.
You are of course free to disagree with NASA and me as well as disagree with the god for using the word "ramadan" and therefore assume that it is meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 17, 2008, 01:53:14 PM
[2:185] "Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
Peace
And only one Leilat ul Qadr in which the Quran was descended, guidance to the people of the whole world.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on October 17, 2008, 07:56:47 PM
And only one Leilat ul Qadr in which the Quran was descended, guidance to the people of the whole world.
:peace:
Brother Ayman salam
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....
siki
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on October 17, 2008, 10:20:03 PMSo, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....
Do you think that the night of measure happened only once ever?
Also, why do you think it is called the night of measure? What is the great reading telling us about what is being measured?
Peace,
Ayman
peace brother Ayman
Apparently , I understand that Quran was sent down on the night of shahr ramadan where Mohammad (pbuh) lived, and was the night of decree, for that particular year. Before, as well as from then on,the angels and the spirit have been descending down on every such night to tweek and set the parameters for the next year.
You think they do it twice a year, on different times for Northerners and southerners?
Actually I havn't delibrated this issue in my mind , so any input from your side ?
siki
Peace all,
Thanks Ayman for clarifying that point. It did get confused for me but I looked again at the full moon listing you posted earlier and yes, it needs to be skipped. My mistake however doesn't take away from the clarity of the verses on the issue that the 4 ashhur hurum are consistent. Here's another verse that I overlooked to mention:
5:96 Made lawful for you all is the game of the sea and its food as provision for you all and the travelers and made unlawful upon you all is the game of the land as long as you are '
huruman' (prohibited/ restricted). And fear the god whom to Him you are being gathered.
Quote from: siki on October 17, 2008, 10:20:03 PM
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....
siki
To Siki,
Curiously, what are you seeing as the pothole? This was actually one of the verses to show that 'shahr' must mean 'full moon' since a full moon is also a night event. This keeps the verses consistent and precise. Or are you making another point here?
Umm Tariq
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on October 17, 2008, 11:17:57 PMApparently , I understand that Quran was sent down on the night of shahr ramadan where Mohammad (pbuh) lived, and was the night of decree, for that particular year. Before, as well as from then on,the angels and the spirit have been descending down on every such night to tweek and set the parameters for the next year.
You think they do it twice a year, on different times for Northerners and southerners?
Actually I havn't delibrated this issue in my mind , so any input from your side ?
At this stage, I believe that the answer to my second question is more important than the answer to the first one. So it is more important to answer the following questions:
Why is it described as the night of measure? What is the great reading telling us about what is being measured?In terms of the context of the timing and the night what is being measured? In this context, I think that it is the moon that is being measured as per 36:39 and 10:5. The night of measure would be the night when this measurement of the moon starts. So the next question is when exactly does the measurement of the moon starts? In both 36:39 and 10:5, we are told that the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil"). 36:39 specifically states that the moon is measured in descending stages until it becomes like an old curved sheath (i.e., a crescent). So what shape does the moon descend from in stages until it becomes a crescent? This clearly can only be the full-moon. So this is the starting point of the measurement (i.e., the night of measure). So if one goes strictly by the definition given in 36:39 and 10:5 then the night of measure is the night of the full-moon.
Of course, the night of a scorching full-moon by definition would also be a night of measure.
I think that, as you said, the scorching full-moon and thus the night of measure could happen twice a year, once for Northerners and another for Southerners so the night of measure could be twice a year. This is one possibility.
At this stage, I think it is more probable and logical that the night of measure is any night with a full moon.
In this case, the night of a scorching full-moon by definition would also be a night of measure, but not vice-versa.
At any rate, each point on earth along the direction of its rotation will have a different start of the night within the earth's 24 hour cycle. So the idea that the night of measure happens exactly at the same time for everyone, even within the same hemisphere is not grounded in reality to begin with and Nun's objection would equally apply to the traditional understanding.
Chapter 97 talks about the controllers and the spirit descending. It also talks about this night being peaceful until dawn. Yet, there is no evidence of any particular night of the year where crime is less than any other night or where wars suddenly stopped or people don't get murdered. So there is a lot about Chapter 97 that we don't understand. Perhaps the god is talking about this being a night of peace only with the awareness and realization of what this night is. I think that it goes back to our perception, since as far as the god is concerned, the moon is only one moon. The stages are just an optical effect in the narrow band of the human visible electromagnetic spectrum.
These are deep philosophical questions but we wouldn't be asking them if we hadn't reached a better understanding. If we were still content with the traditional way, we wouldn't be asking them. So I think that we are on the right track to reach a new level of understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Quote from: Umm Tariq on October 18, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
Curiously, what are you seeing as the pothole? This was actually one of the verses to show that 'shahr' must mean 'full moon' since a full moon is also a night event.
Full moons also happen during the day as this year and next three years...
Saudi Arabia ? Makkah (Ramadan North)http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 18, 2008 Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 12:22 PM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 2:31 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 9:40 AM
Johannesburg, South Africa (No Ramadan South)http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?obj=moon&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1&n=111
Jul 18, 2008 Full at 9:59 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 11:22 AM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 1:31 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 8:40 AM
Quote from: ayman on October 18, 2008, 06:24:26 PM
I think that, as you said, the scorching full-moon and thus the night of measure could happen twice a year, once for Northerners and another for Southerners so the night of measure could be twice a year. This is one possibility.
I think not, night is simultaneous in both the north and south hemispheres.
(http://www.goglobalwarmingawareness2007.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/800px-earth-lighting-equinox_en.png)
Peace Ayman
I think your thinking line is correct.
siki
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 18, 2008, 10:07:51 PM
Peace,
Full moons also happen during the day as this year and next three years...
I think not, night is simultaneous in both the north and south hemispheres.
Well done Nun :peace:
Quote from: siki on October 19, 2008, 01:03:14 AM
Peace Ayman
I think your thinking line is correct.
siki
Siki...How can you close your eyes to all the facts that Nun presented above and say (to Ayman) "I think your thinking line is correct"? :nope:
Your Propagnda to distort the truth is so obvious. But know that God will always show his Light to the believers no matter how many try to trun off.
All your and Ayman's Sect argumants are not based on Well-established Quranic Verses (or Signs). Thus, your Arrgumants = 0
Please read 3-7 to undserstand about people who do that.
Again, well-done Nun.
;D
Quote from: anthonywallace on October 19, 2008, 12:07:31 PM
;D
Peace anthony:
So, what are you getting out from this Thread? Can you see the Truth?
Quote from: belalhammad on October 19, 2008, 12:19:16 PM
Peace anthony:
So, what are you getting out from this Thread? Can you see the Truth?
:peace:
I havent really been following this thread latly. I havent been getting nothing out of it really, my mind somewere else right now. All I see is a bunch of blah blah blah and moons and calenders and all that other stuff and long posts with no evedence and I havent made time to study it.
But your posts do catch my attention thoe.
:peace:
Quote from: anthonywallace on October 19, 2008, 01:15:59 PM
:peace:
I havent really been following this thread latly. I havent been getting nothing out of it really, my mind somewere else right now. All I see is a bunch of blah blah blah and moons and calenders and all that other stuff and long posts with no evedence and I havent made time to study it.
But your posts do catch my attention thoe.
:peace:
Peace;
I agree with you that most of what were posted are circular arguments. But the Quran argumants are not circular but straight ones; thus, behold your Quran when things become confusing. Look for the verses that were posted and collect them; and when you do, find a way to understand them, by which non of the verses is canceled out by other (God's verses will allways match).
:peace:
Brothers Nun and Belalhammad Peace.
Please consider the following facts.
"There is permanent night on half of the moon , and it's dark side has never witnessed the sun"
"Planet Venus's night equals 117 earth nights, and is the only planet which rotates clockwise, and hence the sun rises from the west, and sets in the east"
Now, being in knowledge of these facts , How can one not believe in Ayman's Red moon theory?
siki
Peace siki,
Quote from: siki on October 19, 2008, 11:15:10 PM
Brothers Nun and Belalhammad Peace.
Please consider the following facts.
"There is permanent night on half of the moon , and it's dark side has never witnessed the sun"
"Planet Venus's night equals 117 earth nights, and is the only planet which rotates clockwise, and hence the sun rises from the west, and sets in the east"
Now, being in knowledge of these facts , How can one not believe in Ayman's Red moon theory?
siki
There is no "dark side" of the moon unless talking about Pink Floyd...lol
The moon get sunlight half the time same as earth because the moon also spins.
We see the light side; they are in sync like a man/earth swinging a rope/gravity with ball/moon at the end.
Strange Sun, Earth & Moon Coincidenceshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5h_qoHCn7k
This is irrelevant to the topic and there are countless other mysteries in the universe...
Are Cold Fusion reactors and Quantum Computers possible?
Do protons decay?
Does time decay?
Are Black holes, Dark matter, String theory, Super-symmetry ? is ?theory of everything? or even this life real?
6:32 And the life the present/worldly life is not except playing/amusement and play things, and (the) end's (other life's) home (is) better to those who are righteous, so do you not reason?
Peace,
Im starting to think. What similarities does Ramadan, and christian/Jewish fasting have?
I mean dont they also fast?
Rosh Hashanah
At the begining of the new year.. a little similar to what Ayman was saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Hashanah
It just leads back to the idea that perhaps previus scripture is important.
Peace
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 20, 2008, 12:29:14 AM
Peace siki,
There is no "dark side" of the moon unless talking about Pink Floyd...lol
The moon get sunlight half the time same as earth because the moon also spins.
We see the light side; they are in sync like a man/earth swinging a rope/gravity with ball/moon at the end.
:yes Oh , yes , you are right,
so , that means Ayman's theory is wrong, i suppose. :confused:
siki
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on October 20, 2008, 01:23:59 AM :yes Oh , yes , you are right,
so , that means Ayman's theory is wrong, i suppose. :confused:
The "dark side of the moon" is a misnomer. It is really the "far side of the moon" (relative to earth). I am not sure what this has to do with anything. All the phases of the moon are just optical phenomena that we perceive and no part of the moon actualy vanishes from existence when it is a crescent. It is always one and the same moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Brother Ayman,
Relax, Your theory aint going to the far side of moon, ;D that was just a bit of leg pulling after i went through last couple of posts by Brother Nun and Belalhammad.
siki
Quote from: barmack on October 20, 2008, 01:14:29 AM
Peace,
Im starting to think. What similarities does Ramadan, and christian/Jewish fasting have?
I mean dont they also fast?
Rosh Hashanah
At the begining of the new year.. a little similar to what Ayman was saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Hashanah
It just leads back to the idea that perhaps previus scripture is important.
Peace
Peace:
The followig is quotations from your link, which shows that Jewish used to use Lunar Year, and they calculate the month from New Moon (Waxing Crescent) to the next New Moon (Moon Cycel).
Begin Quote
Jewish Year Starts (at sundown)
5769 29 September 2008
5770 18 September 2009
5771 08 September 2010
Since the time of the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE and the time of Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai, normative Jewish law appears to be that Rosh Hashanah is to be celebrated for two days, due to the difficulty of determining the date of the new moon.
End Quote
They did what Ayman Believes we should do: "Ignore the Waxing Crescent". Also, please note how there year is less than Solar Year by 10 days (They use Luar Year)
Salam
Quote from: siki on October 20, 2008, 01:25:40 PMRelax, Your theory aint going to the far side of moon, ;D that was just a bit of leg pulling after i went through last couple of posts by Brother Nun and Belalhammad.
You got me too. :laugh:
Peace,
Ayman
Brother Ayman
salam
Any idea what 34-12 is trying to convey?
34-12 And (We made) the wind (subservient) to Sulaiman, which made a month's journey in the morning and a month's journey in the evening, and We made a fountain of molten copper to flow out for him, and of the jinn there were those who worked before him by the command of his Lord; and whoever turned aside from Our command from among them, We made him taste of the punishment of burning.
peace
siki
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on October 21, 2008, 12:22:25 AM
Any idea what 34-12 is trying to convey?
34-12 And (We made) the wind (subservient) to Sulaiman, which made a month's journey in the morning and a month's journey in the evening, and We made a fountain of molten copper to flow out for him, and of the jinn there were those who worked before him by the command of his Lord; and whoever turned aside from Our command from among them, We made him taste of the punishment of burning.
Umm Tariq and I had a brief discussion earlier on this. I don't think that we have reached anything conclusive. You may want to read her post and my reply:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177971;topicseen#msg177971
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Siki,
I had to jump in again to comment on 34:12. The translation you quoted is incorrect. There is no word for journey in the verse. The following is more accurate:
34:12 And to Solomon the wind/breeze, its early morning one full-moon, and its blowing quickly/briskly/violently in evening one full-moon ......................................
What this verse is talking about is the blowing of the wind forcefully in early morning alternating with blowing forcefully in evening at the command of Solomon. In other words, all this verse means is that Solomon was given control over when the wind blew with force. "Its early morning" implies "its blowing quickly/briskly in early morning", when contrasted with the second phrase "rawahuha shahrun".
Truth seeker. salam
It has been quite long that i have learnt not to trust any translation, and reached the conclusion, that one has to burn one's own oil for deciphering the arabic.
Actually , i wana always quote the arabic, but some how , i havent been able to find an easy tool on the forum to do that (any suggestions) So whenever you find a translated verse from my side , just take it easy, cause i have casually picked up any translation which i can cut and paste, to convey a refrence, or a theme , I may not agree with the translator.
Now coming to the verse it self , there is a word shahr in it , how do you fit in that?
peace
siki
Peace Siki,
I was just trying to suggest a better translation and what I understood from the verse.
I think the usage of "shahr" here is idiomatic, referring to alternate time markers, implying that Solomon could order the wind to blow forcefully whenever he wanted, miraculously by God's permission. For example, to demonstrate a miracle from God, he could have told his people that he will command the wind to blow forcefully early in the morning this coming full-moon, and then the next full-moon after that he will command the wind to blow forcefully in the evening. God knows better!
To find out exactly what it means, we will have to travel back in time to Solomon's time or wait for Last Day and ask God or wait for Him to reveal its meaning before that. I think this verse is one of the "mutashaabihaat" (3:7).
فَتَعَالَى اللَّهُ الْمَلِكُ الْحَقُّ وَلَا تَعْجَلْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مِن قَبْلِ أَن يُقْضَى إِلَيْكَ وَحْيُهُ وَقُل رَّبِّ زِدْنِي عِلْمًا (20:114) http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/
فتعلى الله الملك الحق ولا تعجل بالقرءان من قبل أن يقضى إليك وحيه وقل رب زدني علما20:114
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/20/114
20:114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur?an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say: ?My Lord, increase my knowledge.?
For quoting Arabic, go to the websites I referenced above and just copy and paste the Arabic. Then you can use the font size button to increase the text size.
Dear Ayman
salam
Anna , in another thread has asked a very pertinent question regarding fasting in the near vicinities of poles, to which wakas has refered her to one of your basic articles on the issue. He also recommends not to fast untill one sees the Ramadhan full moon, to which i agree. Now my question is , what is the anotomy of Red full moon in polar regions? Would we find there a schorching Red moon after summer solistice, or not?
siki
Peace Siki,
Places on Earth North of 66.5 degrees will never see the full-moon during the Northern Hemisphere summer solstice. Hence the "shahru ramadhan" will not be witnessed in those locations.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=341
Quote from: truthseeker11 on November 09, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
Peace Siki,
Places on Earth North of 66.5 degrees will never see the full-moon during the Northern Hemisphere summer solstice. Hence the "shahru ramadhan" will not be witnessed in those locations.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=341
Salaam
Nor would they witness the new moon so, as I said in this thread earlier on that in the far Northern hemisphere the moon will not be witnessed in the summer and there is no dawn and no sunset so as I understand it people of those Northern countries do not have to fast.
Those who chose to artificially divide the day and fast do it to their own desire, but they would witness it when the Ramadanin falls in other seasons. Fasting in the month of Ramadhan is blessing for the whole mankind including the blind, no one is exempt except those mentioned in the Qur'an.
:peace:
Quote from: truthseeker11 on October 21, 2008, 12:23:21 PM
Peace Siki,
I had to jump in again to comment on 34:12. The translation you quoted is incorrect. There is no word for journey in the verse. The following is more accurate:
34:12 And to Solomon the wind/breeze, its early morning one full-moon, and its blowing quickly/briskly/violently in evening one full-moon ......................................
What this verse is talking about is the blowing of the wind forcefully in early morning alternating with blowing forcefully in evening at the command of Solomon. In other words, all this verse means is that Solomon was given control over when the wind blew with force. "Its early morning" implies "its blowing quickly/briskly in early morning", when contrasted with the second phrase "rawahuha shahrun".
Salaam Truthseeker,
Since the primary meaning of ?SHAHR? is ?OBVIOUS?. Here can we say:
34:12 And to Solomon the wind/breeze, its early morning was obvious, and its blowing quickly/briskly/violently in evening was obvious??..
Maybe Samia can comment.
Peace be unto you, brothers and sisters,
May God guide you to the righteous path, and may He shower you with blessings from Most High.
I found out the hottest month in the area I live in (SF/Bay Area) and fast during August 1-31.
God knows my heart.
Peace and blessings.
Peace and God's blesings be on you all!
I stoped reading after page 15. Sorry all the arguments and running in circles are not helping me try to understand any better.
I basically agree with Ayman's conclusions, as they make the most since to me as to what the Quran(reading) implies.
My questions are for Ayman or anyone that agree's with his consclusions.
Let me see if I got this right..
ramadhan(scorching fullmoon) begins on the fullmoon after the summer solstice.(2:185)
The night of measure, is the night before the abstinence of the scorching moon(ramadhan) begins,Which lasts 10 days.
Abstinence occurs during the daylight periods of the 10 day period. For those with non believing families or cant afford to stay the whole 10 days may stay 3 at the gathering and then abstain for 7 at home.2:196
The months of restriction are four months,beginning with the scorching fullmoon.(the restriction is against hunting during those months)
The Gathering(hajj), last 10 days, Fullmoon to the crescent and occurs durig one or any of the last 3 restricted months.The gathering is to be attended by all believing families, but for those who dont have believing families, they can leave after 2/3 days.(2:184; 2:203)
The year is solar and has 12 months.(9:36)
Is umrah the lesser gathering and when should it be done? Can you explain to me 2:196-197?
[2:196] And perform Hajj (the gathering) and Umrah (lesser gathering?) for Allah; and if you are prevented, send sacrifice whatever is available; and do not shave your heads until the sacrifice reaches its destination; so whoever among you is sick or has an ailment in the head, must pay a compensation by fasting or charity or sacrifice; then when you are in peace - and whoever takes the advantage of combining the Hajj and Umrah, it is compulsory for him to sacrifice whatever is available; and whoever cannot afford it, must fast for three days while on the pilgrimage, and seven when you have returned to your homes; these are ten in all; this decree is for him who is not a resident of Mecca; and keep fearing Allah and know well that Allah?s punishment is severe.
[2:197] The gathering(hajj) is during the well-known months; and for one who intends to perform the Hajj in it - neither is there to be mention of cohabitation in the presence of women, nor any sin, nor a fight with anyone till the completion of Hajj; and whatever good you do, Allah knows it; and take provision along with you for the best provision is piety; and keep fearing Me, O men of understanding!
I know it says in 2:185 that whoever witnesses the scorching moon should fast/abstain, does 22:27 imply that even if we dont abstain, we should still attend the gathering(hajj)? It says it should be publicaly announced.
[22:27] "And publicly announce the gathering(hajj) to all people ? they will come to you, on foot and on every lean she-camel, coming from every far distant journey."
[22:28] In order that they may gain their benefit, and mention the name of Allah on the appointed days as He has bestowed the sustenance to them ? the inarticulate animals; therefore eat from them yourself and feed the distressed destitute.
If I am mixing up things and not understanding some things, please explain.
Thanks!
Kadeen
Thanks ayman for answering my questions the pm. ;)
I meant to say "Thanks ayman for answering my questions from the pm that I sent you".
I still need clarification on some of the other questions. ;)
2:233 And the mothers breast feed their children two years complete
31:14 and his weaning/separation in two years (fixed at 365 days x 2)
46:15 and his weight/pregnancy with him, and his weaning/separation thirty months
Equation:
weight/pregnancy with him + 730 days (365 x 2) breast feeding = 30 months
30 full moons can vary:
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
29.53059 x 30 = 885.9177 days
29.53059 x 29 = 856.38711 days
Therefore, weight/pregnancy has to vary in equation to compensate:
Woman 1 becomes pregnant day after full moon;
Weight/pregnancy with him = 886 ? 730 = 156 days
Woman 2 becomes pregnant day before full moon;
Weight/pregnancy with him = 856 ? 730 = 126 days
Regardless if 2 months early, 9 months, or month late, if both woman are pregnant equal #of days, it would contradict to state that one woman was burdened 29 days longer.
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 16, 2009, 05:09:34 PM2:233 And the mothers breast feed their children two years complete
The Arabic word "hawl" doesn't necessarily mean year. It is better translated as "cycle" as one brother kindly pointed out a few months ago on this forum. For delivering a newborn, the cycle is normally 40 weeks or about 10 full moons.
So 2 cycles would be 2*10 full-moons. So pregnancy (10) + weaning (20) = 30. This is confirmed by 46:15 that you quoted:
Quote from: Pseudo on February 16, 2009, 05:09:34 PM46:15 and his weight/pregnancy with him, and his weaning/separation thirty months
Quote from: Pseudo on February 16, 2009, 05:09:34 PM31:14 and his weaning/separation in two years (fixed at 365 days x 2)
The passage actually says "within" two years. So it is saying "in less than two years". This is consistent with it being normally 20 full-moons or a few more full-moons in case the baby is born prematurely.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 16, 2009, 05:09:34 PMEquation:
weight/pregnancy with him + 730 days (365 x 2) breast feeding = 30 months
The formula is wrong. There is no calendar system that has 280+730 = 1010 days in 30 months or 33.67 days per month.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 16, 2009, 05:09:34 PM30 full moons can vary:
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
29.53059 x 30 = 885.9177 days
29.53059 x 29 = 856.38711 days
Therefore, weight/pregnancy has to vary in equation to compensate:
Woman 1 becomes pregnant day after full moon;
Weight/pregnancy with him = 886 ? 730 = 156 days
Woman 2 becomes pregnant day before full moon;
Weight/pregnancy with him = 856 ? 730 = 126 days
Regardless if 2 months early, 9 months, or month late, if both woman are pregnant equal #of days, it would contradict to state that one woman was burdened 29 days longer.
You are describing the same type of problem faced by doctors when they try to determine the due date for delivery. The lunar cycle provides an approximate estimate because it follows a cycle that generally resembles the woman's menstrual cycle. Similarly, doctors don't calculate the due date from the time of conception but from the time of a woman's last menstruation. This plus the fact that the length of pregnancies vary is why when doctors give a woman her due date, they tell her that it can vary within +/-14 days of that date (in other words a 28 days spread, which is close to your 29).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Kadeen,
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMramadhan(scorching fullmoon) begins on the fullmoon after the summer solstice.(2:185)
Yes, "shahr ramadhan" literally means "scorching full-moon".
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMThe night of measure, is the night before the abstinence of the scorching moon(ramadhan) begins,Which lasts 10 days.
The night of measure is the night of the full-moon itself. the abstinance lasts for 10 days starting from the break of the day (dawn) following the night of measure.
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMAbstinence occurs during the daylight periods of the 10 day period. For those with non believing families or cant afford to stay the whole 10 days may stay 3 at the gathering and then abstain for 7 at home.2:196
The "scorching full-moon" marks the abstinance while the next three moons are for marking the feast. 2:196 talks about the feast/"hagg".
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMThe months of restriction are four months,beginning with the scorching fullmoon.(the restriction is against hunting during those months)
The word "month" doesn't occur in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon" the period between four-full moons is 3 lunar "months".
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMThe Gathering(hajj), last 10 days, Fullmoon to the crescent and occurs durig one or any of the last 3 restricted months.The gathering is to be attended by all believing families, but for those who dont have believing families, they can leave after 2/3 days.(2:184; 2:203)
Yes, the feast/"hagg" lasts from the full-moon to the crescent and is marked by the three inviolable full-moons following the scorching full-moon.
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMThe year is solar and has 12 months.(9:36)
No solar year has 12 constant months. 9:36 is talking about "counting" exactly 12 full-moons every single year and therefore skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon that we would get every few years. This would automatically adjust the lunar cycle with the solar cycle so that the hunting restrictions are not violated.
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMIs umrah the lesser gathering and when should it be done? Can you explain to me 2:196-197?
[2:196] And perform Hajj (the gathering) and Umrah (lesser gathering?) for Allah; and if you are prevented, send sacrifice whatever is available; and do not shave your heads until the sacrifice reaches its destination; so whoever among you is sick or has an ailment in the head, must pay a compensation by fasting or charity or sacrifice; then when you are in peace - and whoever takes the advantage of combining the Hajj and Umrah, it is compulsory for him to sacrifice whatever is available; and whoever cannot afford it, must fast for three days while on the pilgrimage, and seven when you have returned to your homes; these are ten in all; this decree is for him who is not a resident of Mecca; and keep fearing Allah and know well that Allah?s punishment is severe.
[2:197] The gathering(hajj) is during the well-known months; and for one who intends to perform the Hajj in it - neither is there to be mention of cohabitation in the presence of women, nor any sin, nor a fight with anyone till the completion of Hajj; and whatever good you do, Allah knows it; and take provision along with you for the best provision is piety; and keep fearing Me, O men of understanding!
The word "hagg" means "feast" and "umrah" could be translated as something like "prosperity". So 2:196 is talking about completing the feast and prosperity and enjoying/taking advantage of the feast and prosperity.
Quote from: Kadeen on February 14, 2009, 01:50:17 PMI know it says in 2:185 that whoever witnesses the scorching moon should fast/abstain, does 22:27 imply that even if we dont abstain, we should still attend the gathering(hajj)? It says it should be publicaly announced.
[22:27] "And publicly announce the gathering(hajj) to all people ? they will come to you, on foot and on every lean she-camel, coming from every far distant journey."
[22:28] In order that they may gain their benefit, and mention the name of Allah on the appointed days as He has bestowed the sustenance to them ? the inarticulate animals; therefore eat from them yourself and feed the distressed destitute.
If I understood your question correctly, then yes we should try to attend the feast, even if we didn't abstain. Abstinance is a different exercise.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman:
I would like to comment on this:
Beging quote:
No solar year has 12 constant months. 9:36 is talking about "counting" exactly 12 full-moons every single year and therefore skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon that we would get every few years. This would automatically adjust the lunar cycle with the solar cycle so that the hunting restrictions are not violated.
End Quote
According to your argument, in order to not violate the hunting restriction all over the earth, you will need different calender for each part of the earth. As you know, for example, when it is summer in Saudi Arabia, it is winter in south Africa, and therefore hunting season would be violated in south Africa if you do not have different Calendar for them.
In other words, if June, July, August, and September are the Hunting restriction time because of animal matting time (Fall) and animal heat exhaustion (summer), then, people in South Africa will be free to hunt from October to June period, in which animal matting time and heat exhaustion are current (violating hunting rules).
Peace
Peace ayman,
1-thanks!
Questions 2-6-Thats what I was trying to say.Thanks! :)
7-What do you mean exactly by enjoying our prosperity? The text suggest we can keep umrah at other times, but may keep umrah during hajj.
8-Thats what I was thinking, thanks!
God Bless!
Kadeen
Quote from: ayman on February 16, 2009, 09:42:11 PM
Peace Kadeen,
Yes, "shahr ramadhan" literally means "scorching full-moon".
The night of measure is the night of the full-moon itself. the abstinance lasts for 10 days starting from the break of the day (dawn) following the night of measure.
The "scorching full-moon" marks the abstinance while the next three moons are for marking the feast. 2:196 talks about the feast/"hagg".
The word "month" doesn't occur in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon" the period between four-full moons is 3 lunar "months".
Yes, the feast/"hagg" lasts from the full-moon to the crescent and is marked by the three inviolable full-moons following the scorching full-moon.
No solar year has 12 constant months. 9:36 is talking about "counting" exactly 12 full-moons every single year and therefore skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon that we would get every few years. This would automatically adjust the lunar cycle with the solar cycle so that the hunting restrictions are not violated.
The word "hagg" means "feast" and "umrah" could be translated as something like "prosperity". So 2:196 is talking about completing the feast and prosperity and enjoying/taking advantage of the feast and prosperity.
If I understood your question correctly, then yes we should try to attend the feast, even if we didn't abstain. Abstinance is a different exercise.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace belH,
Not trying to be rude or answer for ayman,but it seems like the same people keep asking the same questions over and over when the answers have already been given in the same thread more than one time....
This easy to understand concept has been answered in this thread and others several times. Ayman and others have explained that the restriction is different between northern and southern hemispheres. So the restriction,hajj and fasting/abstinence in the southern hemisphere would be different or opposite of when people peform them in the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere when its Winter here, people would be keeping the restrictions,hajj and fasting and we will not be, and when its winter there, we would be keeping them. And its been explained in this thread why this is possible or allowed. And there would be No need for two different calendars, as they are mainly used for secular reasons and not for Quranic festivals etc. We can use them or have them, but they are not required to observe the times given to us in the Quran, as also has been explained over and over in this thread and others, we use the moon and sun for counting and observing what God wishes us to do, not calendars.
Hope that helps.
Peace
Kadeen
Quote from: belH on February 16, 2009, 11:50:16 PM
Peace Ayman:
I would like to comment on this:
Beging quote:
No solar year has 12 constant months. 9:36 is talking about "counting" exactly 12 full-moons every single year and therefore skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon that we would get every few years. This would automatically adjust the lunar cycle with the solar cycle so that the hunting restrictions are not violated.
End Quote
According to your argument, in order to not violate the hunting restriction all over the earth, you will need different calender for each part of the earth. As you know, for example, when it is summer in Saudi Arabia, it is winter in south Africa, and therefore hunting season would be violated in south Africa if you do not have different Calendar for them.
In other words, if June, July, August, and September are the Hunting restriction time because of animal matting time (Fall) and animal heat exhaustion (summer), then, people in South Africa will be free to hunt from October to June period, in which animal matting time and heat exhaustion are current (violating hunting rules).
Peace
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 16, 2009, 09:12:01 PM
The formula is wrong. There is no calendar system that has 280+730 = 1010 days in 30 months or 33.67 days per month.
An equation is given:
31:14 and
his weaning ?in less than two years?
46:15 and his weight/pregnancy with him, and
his weaning 30 full-moons
Solving using substitution:
30 full-moons (856 to 886 days) ?
his weaning (< 730 days or 2 yrs) = weight/pregnancy
18 to 22+ weeks = weight/pregnancy
Lunar months:
(29.53059 x 30) 885.9177 days ?
his weaning (< 730 days or 2 yrs) = weight/pregnancy
22+ weeks = weight/pregnancy
The main issue with full-moon, it violates equality for same offense depending on date of oath:
2:226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting four months
Peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on February 16, 2009, 11:50:16 PMAccording to your argument, in order to not violate the hunting restriction all over the earth, you will need different calender for each part of the earth. As you know, for example, when it is summer in Saudi Arabia, it is winter in south Africa, and therefore hunting season would be violated in south Africa if you do not have different Calendar for them.
In other words, if June, July, August, and September are the Hunting restriction time because of animal matting time (Fall) and animal heat exhaustion (summer), then, people in South Africa will be free to hunt from October to June period, in which animal matting time and heat exhaustion are current (violating hunting rules).
Animals follow the solar cycle so their hunting restriction period must be different in the Northern and Southern hemispheres. As Kadeen kindly pointed out, this was explained in details on this thread and it is precisely because the restriction is about hunting that this confirms that the timing of the restriction period must be different between the Southern and Northern hemispheres.
On the other hand, sectarians have abrogated the hunting restriction because they only restrict it for pilgrims during the few days of their so-called Hajj (which, by the way, is not timed by either the full-moon or any phase of the moon but starts arbitrarily on the 8th of the Dhu Al-Hijja). So they are blatantly violating even their own false interpretation of "ash-hur" as "months" and that the waxing crescent times the beginning of the "hajj". So what sectarians are currently doing as far as timing goes is wrong by any measure, even their own measure. It is not surprising that their timing is completely disconnected from the god's creation in the heavens and the earth and from the god's sayings. Indeed, whoever the god misguides then there can be no guide for:
7:185. Did they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the earth and everything that the god has created, and perhaps that their own term has drawn near? So with which saying after this do they have faith in?
7:186. Whoever the god misguides, there can be no guide for and he leaves them aimlessly wandering in their tyranny.Peace,
Ayman
Peace Kadeen,
Quote from: Kadeen on February 17, 2009, 07:29:37 AM7-What do you mean exactly by enjoying our prosperity? The text suggest we can keep umrah at other times, but may keep umrah during hajj.
The word "umrah" is a common concept that can mean "prosperity" or "prospering", etc. So it is used in 9:18, for example, do indicate that the institutions of authority ("masajid") of the god "prosper" only with those who have faith.
I think that the "prosper" part of the feast has to do with the purpose of the feast of witnessing benefits (22:28). Naturally, because people are gathered from all over for the feast, this is an opportunity to conduct business and commerce, all of which would result in prosperity. So if one enjoys prosperity in the course of the feast then one should donate whatever you can of livestock to contribute to the feast.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 17, 2009, 11:09:39 AMAn equation is given:
31:14 and his weaning ?in less than two years?
46:15 and his weight/pregnancy with him, and his weaning 30 full-moons
Solving using substitution:
30 full-moons (856 to 886 days) ? his weaning (< 730 days or 2 yrs) = weight/pregnancy
18 to 22+ weeks = weight/pregnancy
Lunar months:
(29.53059 x 30) 885.9177 days ? his weaning (< 730 days or 2 yrs) = weight/pregnancy
22+ weeks = weight/pregnancy
As I explained above, while 31:14 tells us "less than two years", 2:233 more specifically tells us that the weaning is two cycles (which for newborns is 10 full-moons). So the equation is as follows:
46:15 [(pregnancy + weaning) i.e., 30 full moons] = [(pregnancy, i.e., 10 full moons) + (weaning, i.e., 2*10 full moons, i.e., 20 full moons, i.e., less than 2 years)].
As you can see, the two sides are equal.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 17, 2009, 11:09:39 AMThe main issue with full-moon, it violates equality for same offense depending on date of oath:
2:226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting four months
There is no violation and this is perfectly consistent with 2:228:
2:228 And the divorced women wait for three menstruations...
Notice that here too there is no equality since depending on when the divorce happens (right before or right after a menstruation), the waiting period will similarly vary. In fact, 2:226 and 2:228 confirm that the way we count menstruations and the waiting period are the same (notice the same Arabic word "tarabus" used in both). So this means that like menstruations, "shuhur" are also "events" the only way this can be possible is if "shahr" meant "full-moon".
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 17, 2009, 03:07:32 PM
Peace Belal,
Animals follow the solar cycle so their hunting restriction period must be different in the Northern and Southern hemispheres.
Peace Ayman:
All I'm trying to do is to show why I disagree with you, in order to reach a common ground in which we all would be united.
Please read the following verses, which you might read 100 times before, so you would understand why I'm not agreeing to having different times for Northern and Southern Hemispheres.
Hunting is restricted while a believer is "Hurum"--under restriction:
5:1 O you who believe, honor your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
5:1 يأيها الذين ءامنوا أوفوا بالعقود أحلت لكم بهيمة الأنعم إلا ما يتلى عليكم غير محلي الصيد وأنتم حرم إن الله يحكم ما يريد
5:2 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of God, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Sacred Dwelling; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted (when the restriction is over after Hejj) for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Sacred Temple; make you aggress. And bond together in piety and righteousness, and do not bind together in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for God's retribution is severe.
5:2 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تحلوا شعئر الله ولا الشهر الحرام ولا الهدي ولا القلئد ولا ءامين البيت الحرام يبتغون فضلا من ربهم ورضونا وإذا حللتم فاصطادوا ولا يجرمنكم شنءان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام أن تعتدوا وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدون واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب
If hunting restriction is violated, then the believer will have to do the following in a Certain place--Kabba:
5:95 O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kaaba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whosoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
Therefore, if one violated the hunting restriction in Southern hemispheres, according to the verse, he will have to travel to Kabba. And that is where I do not agree; I believe that Hunting restriction is during Hajj time.
Moreover, if a believer from Southern hemispheres wanted to perform Hajj, He or She will either have to travel during the Northern hemispheres gathering time or during the restricted period of the Southern hemisphere; if He would perform Hajj during Northern time, He will have to restrict himself from hunting, which means that he would be restricted twice in one year (one time during the Southern period and one time during Hajj); and if he would choose to perform Hajj during Southern time, then he would be restricted from hunting in a time that is not animal matting season nor animal heat exhaustion time in Northern part (violation of your theory).
I believe that the four restricted months period is the same in northern and southern hemisphere; and I believe that hunting restriction is only during Hajj time (5-95). And that is why I believe that Ramadan and Hajj time will rotate in season, hence, Lunar Year.
Ayman, I'm not trying to start another discussion nor aggravate any of you; God is my Witness that it makes me sad to see Submitters and Believers divided, and therefore, I'm trying to unite our understandings.
Peace
Salam
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on February 17, 2009, 07:37:50 PMAll I'm trying to do is to show why I disagree with you, in order to reach a common ground in which we all would be united.
Please read the following verses, which you might read 100 times before, so you would understand why I'm not agreeing to having different times for Northern and Southern Hemispheres.
Hunting is restricted while a believer is "Hurum"--under restriction:
5:1 O you who believe, honor your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
5:1 يأيها الذين ءامنوا أوفوا بالعقود أحلت لكم بهيمة الأنعم إلا ما يتلى عليكم غير محلي الصيد وأنتم حرم إن الله يحكم ما يريد
Exactly. 5:1 clearly says "under restriction" and not only if you are attending the "hajj" in the same way that "honoring your contracts and eating all the livestock, except that which is being recited to you" is an obligation not only if you are attending the "hajj".
Quote from: belH on February 17, 2009, 07:37:50 PM5:2 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of God, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Sacred Dwelling; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted (when the restriction is over after Hejj) for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Sacred Temple; make you aggress. And bond together in piety and righteousness, and do not bind together in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for God's retribution is severe.
5:2 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تحلوا شعئر الله ولا الشهر الحرام ولا الهدي ولا القلئد ولا ءامين البيت الحرام يبتغون فضلا من ربهم ورضونا وإذا حللتم فاصطادوا ولا يجرمنكم شنءان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام أن تعتدوا وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدون واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب
Please read the Arabic and see that the "hajj" is nowhere mentioned in 5:2. The underlined part are false words inserted based on preconceptions from Hadiths.
Quote from: belH on February 17, 2009, 07:37:50 PMIf hunting restriction is violated, then the believer will have to do the following in a Certain place--Kabba:
5:95 O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kaaba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whosoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
Therefore, if one violated the hunting restriction in Southern hemispheres, according to the verse, he will have to travel to Kabba. And that is where I do not agree; I believe that Hunting restriction is during Hajj time.
Again, in 5:95 there is absolutely no mention of "hajj". The god doesn't refer to the pagan stone cube in Mecca. The word "al-kaaba" in Arabic means "the base". The inviolable house is the base and its location is clearly given in 22:26 as any place where partners are not setup with the god. It doesn't matter if it is in the Northern Hemisphere or the Southern one or anywhere.
Quote from: belH on February 17, 2009, 07:37:50 PMMoreover, if a believer from Southern hemispheres wanted to perform Hajj, He or She will either have to travel during the Northern hemispheres gathering time or during the restricted period of the Southern hemisphere; if He would perform Hajj during Northern time, He will have to restrict himself from hunting, which means that he would be restricted twice in one year (one time during the Southern period and one time during Hajj); and if he would choose to perform Hajj during Southern time, then he would be restricted from hunting in a time that is not animal matting season nor animal heat exhaustion time in Northern part (violation of your theory).
If you travel to the US during the hunting restriction period in the US then you would be restricted from hunting in the US. You are not going to tell the police when they arrest you that you are from Downunder and therefore you follow the hunting restrictions there. Since their purpose is to protect wildlife, the hunting restrictions are a function of the location where the hunting is taking place. So even if you didn't travel to the US and while in Sydney you remotely triggered a gun that killed a deer in the US during the hunting restriction then you still violated the hunting restriction.
Quote from: belH on February 17, 2009, 07:37:50 PMI believe that the four restricted months period is the same in northern and southern hemisphere; and I believe that hunting restriction is only during Hajj time (5-95). And that is why I believe that Ramadan and Hajj time will rotate in season, hence, Lunar Year.
5:95 doesn't mention "hajj" at all. As you admit, the god clearly tells us that the restricted period is "four shahr". So even by your incorrect definition of "shahr" as "months", the restriction on hunting should be for four of your months. So you are essentially contradicting and violating your own understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 17, 2009, 11:10:21 PM
Again, in 5:95 there is absolutely no mention of "hajj". The god doesn't refer to the pagan stone cube in Mecca. The word "al-kaaba" in Arabic means "the base". The inviolable house is the base and its location is clearly given in 22:26 as any place where partners are not setup with the god. It doesn't matter if it is in the Northern Hemisphere or the Southern one or anywhere.
Peace Ayman:
The Kabaa is the place that Abraham built and called the Humans for Hajj 22-27.
And the verse I quoted clearly shows that any one violates the Hunting restriction will have to kill an equal animal in Kabba (5-95).
Please read 5-97 and you will know what is Kabba:
5:97 God has made the Kaaba to be the Sacred Dwelling; to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.
5:97 جعل الله الكعبة البيت الحرام قيما للناس والشهر الحرام والهدي والقلئد ذلك لتعلموا أن الله يعلم ما في السموت وما في الأرض وأن الله بكل شيء عليم
If God did not mention Kabba as the place in which hunting violators will have to kill an equal animal as a punishment, I would have agreed with you that Hunting restriction is during the four restricted months.
Ayman, I believe that God has declared four months out of the twelve and called them Hurm "Restricted" (9-36).
And if one choose to perform Hajj in one of them, then he becomes under restriction "Hurm" from many things including Hunting. But when done with hajj, the restriction of hunting is no longer valid.
2:197 The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
2:197 الحج أشهر معلومت فمن فرض فيهن الحج فلا رفث ولا فسوق ولا جدال في الحج وما تفعلوا من خير يعلمه الله وتزودوا فإن خير الزاد التقوى واتقون يأولي الألبب.
Peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on February 18, 2009, 07:23:07 PMThe Kabaa is the place that Abraham built and called the Humans for Hajj 22-27.
Abraham didn't build any pagan stone cube. The present stone cube in Mekka was built by the Saudis in 1996. This is an indisputable fact.
Quote from: belH on February 18, 2009, 07:23:07 PMAnd the verse I quoted clearly shows that any one violates the Hunting restriction will have to kill an equal animal in Kabba (5-95).
Please read 5-97 and you will know what is Kabba:
5:97 God has made the Kaaba to be the Sacred Dwelling; to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.
5:97 جعل الله الكعبة البيت الحرام قيما للناس والشهر الحرام والهدي والقلئد ذلك لتعلموا أن الله يعلم ما في السموت وما في الأرض وأن الله بكل شيء عليم
If God did not mention Kabba as the place in which hunting violators will have to kill an equal animal as a punishment, I would have agreed with you that Hunting restriction is during the four restricted months.
Again, no mention of "hajj" here. The real "kaaba" doesn't suddenly cease to exist when there is no "hajj". In fact, the word "qiyama" for all people describing "kaaba" means maintenance or persistent, in other words it is not just for a specific time or only for the specific people who are attending the "hajj".
Quote from: belH on February 18, 2009, 07:23:07 PMAyman, I believe that God has declared four months out of the twelve and called them Hurm "Restricted" (9-36).
And if one choose to perform Hajj in one of them, then he becomes under restriction "Hurm" from many things including Hunting. But when done with hajj, the restriction of hunting is no longer valid.
2:197 The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
2:197 الحج أشهر معلومت فمن فرض فيهن الحج فلا رفث ولا فسوق ولا جدال في الحج وما تفعلوا من خير يعلمه الله وتزودوا فإن خير الزاد التقوى واتقون يأولي الألبب.
Notice that 2:197 doesn't say "no hunting". The reason that 2:197 doesn't mention anything about hunting or being "restricted" is because the hunting restriction has nothing to do with "hajj". Even if no one in the world went to the "hajj", the four inviolable/restricted "shahr" would still be "inviolable/restricted". This is a fact.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Okay that makes since, thanks!
God Bless,
Kadeen
Quote from: ayman on February 17, 2009, 03:20:37 PM
Peace Kadeen,
The word "umrah" is a common concept that can mean "prosperity" or "prospering", etc. So it is used in 9:18, for example, do indicate that the institutions of authority ("masajid") of the god "prosper" only with those who have faith.
I think that the "prosper" part of the feast has to do with the purpose of the feast of witnessing benefits (22:28). Naturally, because people are gathered from all over for the feast, this is an opportunity to conduct business and commerce, all of which would result in prosperity. So if one enjoys prosperity in the course of the feast then one should donate whatever you can of livestock to contribute to the feast.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 18, 2009, 10:36:58 PM
Notice that 2:197 doesn't say "no hunting". The reason that 2:197 doesn't mention anything about hunting or being "restricted" is because the hunting restriction has nothing to do with "hajj". Even if no one in the world went to the "hajj", the four inviolable/restricted "shahr" would still be "inviolable/restricted". This is a fact.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam
This is because there is no single calendar and in the Quran the moon is held out as the one for keeping counts of days, the secret months are not to keep the count of time but a set of months when hunting is prohibited, which is a seasonal event in the different part of the world which can at time come within the month of fasting or Hajj if it falls in those months when wild life need to be preserved.
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on February 18, 2009, 10:36:58 PM
Peace Belal,
Abraham didn't build any pagan stone cube. The present stone cube in Mekka was built by the Saudis in 1996. This is an indisputable fact.
Peace:
That is where I believe the Kabba is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anyer2hHVRs&feature=related
I would love to hear more about 1996 buliding of The Cube.
As far as the Hunting restriction, I still believe it is during the Hajj time while the believer is Hurm.
Peace
Quote from: belH on February 19, 2009, 07:16:04 PM
As far as the Hunting restriction, I still believe it is during the Hajj time while the believer is Hurm.
Peace
In 5.95 God commands the believers not to kill wildlife when they are restricted and explains to us how one shall be punished (or how he shall compensate) if he doesn?t obey to this restriction.
In 5.96 God tells us that there are two kinds of wildlife: that in water and that on land. We do not have to impose any restrictions on water game but we must impose some restrictions to protect the wildlife on land.
If hurumun means a state of sacredness during the hajj which begins after the appointed places named miqat, which are places around and some kilometres away from Mecca, this means that God doesn?t know that there is no sea around Mecca and he allows us to kill wildlife in the seas around Meca while we are in a state of hurum.
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 20, 2009, 04:45:39 AM.
In 5.96 God tells us that there are two kinds of wildlife: that in water and that on land. We do not have to impose any restrictions on water game but we must impose some restrictions to protect the wildlife on land.
If hurumun means a state of sacredness during the hajj which begins after the appointed places named miqat, which are places around and some kilometres away from Mecca, this means that God doesn?t know that there is no sea around Mecca and he allows us to kill wildlife in the seas around Meca while we are in a state of hurum.
This is a very good point.
Quote from: Samia on February 20, 2009, 08:22:48 AM
This is a very good point.
Thank you Samia,
In this respect I have a question. I will be thankful to you if you explain to me the following.
In Lanes Lexicon page: 2616 ka3b (
كعب) means ?eminence, or nobility, and glory.
Rajul 3aliy al-ka3bi (
رجل عالي الكعب) means a man eminent, or noble, and successful in his enterprises.
So in the same way can we say (rajulun hadyan baligha alka3bati) (
رجل هَدْيًا بَالِغَ الْكَعْبَةِ) man who reached glory in guidance?
5.95 ?
يحْكُمُ بِهِ ذَوَا عَدْلٍ مِنْكُمْ هَدْيًا بَالِغَ الْكَعْبَةِ ?..
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 17, 2009, 03:41:19 PM
There is no violation and this is perfectly consistent with 2:228:
2:228 And the divorced women wait for three menstruations...
No ?shahr? in verse.
Quote from: ayman on February 17, 2009, 03:41:19 PM
Notice that here too there is no equality since depending on when the divorce happens (right before or right after a menstruation), the waiting period will similarly vary. In fact, 2:226 and 2:228 confirm that the way we count menstruations and the waiting period are the same (notice the same Arabic word "tarabus" used in both). So this means that like menstruations, "shuhur" are also "events" the only way this can be possible is if "shahr" meant "full-moon".
Woman waits 3 menstruations (not months) - Start: day of divorce
End: day of 3rd menstruation since divorce
Man waits 4 months (not menstruations) - Start: day of oath
End:
exactly 4 months later
Menstruations are variable/inconsistent one-time events.
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
Peace
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 20, 2009, 04:45:39 AM
In 5.95 God commands the believers not to kill wildlife when they are restricted and explains to us how one shall be punished (or how he shall compensate) if he doesn?t obey to this restriction.
In 5.96 God tells us that there are two kinds of wildlife: that in water and that on land. We do not have to impose any restrictions on water game but we must impose some restrictions to protect the wildlife on land.
If hurumun means a state of sacredness during the hajj which begins after the appointed places named miqat, which are places around and some kilometres away from Mecca, this means that God doesn?t know that there is no sea around Mecca and he allows us to kill wildlife in the seas around Meca while we are in a state of hurum.
Peace,
It means God knows the habitat is scarce in land wildlife; a few thousand people would eat everything.
Mecca is only 40 miles to the Red Sea abundant with fish to stock up with:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=mecca+saudi&ie=UTF8&ll=21.473518,39.814453&spn=1.290712,1.917114&t=h&z=9
http://www.hurtigruten.com/Global/Images/Greenland/580x235b/grnlDryFish_580x235.jpg
This is a logistics issue and viable option for having a large meeting of thousands or millions of people anywhere in the world especially in the Arabian Peninsula. How else to advise solving the problem for people traveling to the area or any place?
5:96 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you
and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 20, 2009, 12:14:15 PMWoman waits 3 menstruations (not months) - Start: day of divorce
End: day of 3rd menstruation since divorce
Man waits 4 months (not menstruations) - Start: day of oath
End: exactly 4 months later
Menstruations are variable/inconsistent one-time events.
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
This is not basic logic. This is your pseudo logic. :)
http://www.truthpizza.org/logic/badlogic.htm
You are essentially building a circular argument saying that "shahr" means "
month" because "
month is fixed consistent "time" between two events". As you can see, it is circular and begs the question because the assumption of "shahr" meaning "month" (the very thing you are trying to prove) is in your premise.
The other pseudo logic in your argument is that the premise itself is false since actually "month is
NOT a fixed consistent "time" between two events". For example, February is not consistent with January, etc.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 20, 2009, 12:17:13 PMIt means God knows the habitat is scarce in land wildlife; a few thousand people would eat everything.
Mecca is only 40 miles to the Red Sea abundant with fish to stock up with:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=mecca+saudi&ie=UTF8&ll=21.473518,39.814453&spn=1.290712,1.917114&t=h&z=9
http://www.hurtigruten.com/Global/Images/Greenland/580x235b/grnlDryFish_580x235.jpg
This is a logistics issue and viable option for having a large meeting of thousands or millions of people anywhere in the world especially in the Arabian Peninsula. How else to advise solving the problem for people traveling to the area or any place?
5:96 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
Please see my replies to Belal above. Again, 5:96-97 don't mention "hajj" at all so your argument is completely irrelevant to begin with. Your argument is based entirely on preconceptions from Hadiths that abrogate the clear hunting restriction and make it for the period of 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to the 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only for the area around Mecca. On the other hand, we are indisputably told in the great reading that the period is FOUR "shahr" and there is absolutely no mention of Mecca or any specific town where only there the hunting is restricted and no where else. So regardless of what you think "shahr" means, you are violating your own understanding by following what sectarians do. The god has made this clear, so don't dispute the god's restrictions and allow what he had made restricted based on your Hadiths preconceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Pseudo on February 20, 2009, 12:17:13 PM
Mecca is only 40 miles to the Red Sea abundant with fish to stock up with:
Peace Pseudo,
The following information is taken from the official site of the Ministry of Hajj Saudi Arabia for your information. The restricted area is shown in green color in the map given at the site. This area is called Haram (restricted area) and everywhere outside this area including the Red Sea is called Al-Hill (Free Area).
Location of Miqats
There are five places some distance from the Holy City of Makkah which pilgrims must not cross before they are in a state of Ihram if they intend to enter al Masjid al Haram for Umrah or Hajj. These points or stations are called Miqats. For map, see Location of Miqats
Dhu'l-Hulayfah: This miqat is about 9 kilometers from Madinah and about 450 kilometers from Makkah. Dhu'l-Hulayfah is the miqat for those who live in Madinah and for those who approach Makkah from that direction.
Juhfah: This miqat is about 190 kilometers to the northwest of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people who come from the direction of Syria.
Qarn al-Manazil: This miqat is a hilly place about 90 kilometers to the east of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people of Nejd or for those coming from that direction.
Dhat Irq: This miqat is about 85 kilometers towards the northeast side of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people of Iran, Iraq and for those coming from that direction.
Yalamlam: This miqat is a hilly area about 50 kilometers to the southeast of Makkah. This is the miqat for the people of Yemen and others coming from that direction. It is the miqat for many of the pilgrims from China, Japan, India, Pakistan who come by ship.
The area outside the Haram, the holy land on which the City of Makkah stands, is called al-Hill. Muslims who enter the Haram area on business or for other purposes need not do the ihram before entering the Holy City of Makkah unless they have the intention to perform Umrah or Hajj. Muslims coming to Makkah with the intention of performing Umrah or Hajj must not cross a Miqat without first entering into the state of Ihram, unless they live within the area between Miqat and the Haram. In this case they do Ihram either at home or just before entering the Haram area.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on February 19, 2009, 04:27:29 PMThis is because there is no single calendar and in the Quran the moon is held out as the one for keeping counts of days, the secret months are not to keep the count of time but a set of months when hunting is prohibited, which is a seasonal event in the different part of the world which can at time come within the month of fasting or Hajj if it falls in those months when wild life need to be preserved.
Thank you. Even though I disagree with you that "shahr" means "month", what you are saying is far more mindful of the god than what Pseudo or Belal are saying, which is nothing more than repeating the sectarian Hadith-based abrogation of the restriction by making it for no one except the pilgrims and only for the period of 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to the 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only for the area around Mecca (or Jerusalem in the case of Belal).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on February 18, 2009, 07:23:07 PMAyman, I believe that God has declared four months out of the twelve and called them Hurm "Restricted" (9-36).
And if one choose to perform Hajj in one of them, then he becomes under restriction "Hurm" from many things including Hunting. But when done with hajj, the restriction of hunting is no longer valid.
Sectarians believe that their so-called Hajj is from the 8th to 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah. If you believe differently and think that the "hajj" should be in any of "four months" then please tell us what those four months are.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 20, 2009, 02:58:31 PMIf you believe differently and think that the "hajj" should be in any of "four months" then please tell us what those four months are.
Excellent question, bro Ayman, but where lies the answer? If Muslims believe in those "four months", then where did it come from and why?
Quote from: ayman on February 20, 2009, 02:58:31 PM
Peace Belal,
Sectarians believe that their so-called Hajj is from the 8th to 12th of Dhu Al-Hijjah. If you believe differently and think that the "hajj" should be in any of "four months" then please tell us what those four months are.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman:
The following verse tel us that the four Restricted months are known to the Prophet and his companion:
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:5 فإذا انسلخ الأشهر الحرم فاقتلوا المشركين حيث وجدتموهم وخذوهم واحصروهم واقعدوا لهم كل مرصد فإن تابوا وأقاموا الصلوة وءاتوا الزكوة فخلوا سبيلهم إن الله غفور رحيم
And as I always said, until today, moslems sects are in agreement in what these months are, especially, Ramadan.
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 20, 2009, 04:45:39 AM
If hurumun means a state of sacredness during the hajj which begins after the appointed places named miqat, which are places around and some kilometres away from Mecca, this means that God doesn?t know that there is no sea around Mecca and he allows us to kill wildlife in the seas around Meca while we are in a state of hurum.
Peace:
That is you believe that Kabba is in Macca (Saudi Arabia); but if you believe that it is in "Bakka " Jerusalem, then the picture will be different,; there are plenty of sea life in Jerusalem surrounding area
(http://www.ddtravel-acc.com/images/ilmap.gif)
Peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on February 21, 2009, 12:27:07 PMThe following verse tel us that the four Restricted months are known to the Prophet and his companion:
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:5 فإذا انسلخ الأشهر الحرم فاقتلوا المشركين حيث وجدتموهم وخذوهم واحصروهم واقعدوا لهم كل مرصد فإن تابوا وأقاموا الصلوة وءاتوا الزكوة فخلوا سبيلهم إن الله غفور رحيم
And as I always said, until today, moslems sects are in agreement in what these months are, especially, Ramadan.
This is the well known logical fallacy of appeal to popularity. I asked you a simple straight question. Instead of appealing to the popular baseless belief amongst sectarians, please tell us what those four restricted months are. Don't you know them?
Quote from: belH on February 21, 2009, 12:27:07 PMThat is you believe that Kabba is in Macca (Saudi Arabia); but if you believe that it is in "Bakka " Jerusalem, then the picture will be different,; there are plenty of sea life in Jerusalem surrounding area
Using the fallacious logic you used above, then sectarians also say that there are many verses that tell us that the shrine in Mecca is known to the prophet and his companion and until today moslem sects are in agreement on this. This is clearly following nothing except your own whims. You appeal to popularity for the things that you like and then turn around and violate your own stand for the things that you don't like.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 20, 2009, 01:33:42 PM
This is not basic logic. This is your pseudo logic. :)
http://www.truthpizza.org/logic/badlogic.htm
You are essentially building a circular argument saying that "shahr" means "month" because "month is fixed consistent "time" between two events". As you can see, it is circular and begs the question because the assumption of "shahr" meaning "month" (the very thing you are trying to prove) is in your premise.
The other pseudo logic in your argument is that the premise itself is false since actually "month is NOT a fixed consistent "time" between two events". For example, February is not consistent with January, etc.
That is your
Pseudointellectual logic: :)
Definition: One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.
February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
A "month" is fixed: point-in-time (start of month) to point-in-time (end of month).
Time requires 2 reference points, this is basic logic else time stands still.
2:217 They ask you about the full-moon (point-in-time) the forbidden, fighting/killing in it, say:
Makes no sense, a ?full moon? is a fixed point-in-time as a clock stuck at 12 midnight:
(http://christmasallyear.org/images/image4.jpg)
When a man takes an oath, the clock starts (that day) and ends 4 "months" later.
If 100 men take oath on variable days in the same month, their end date is not the same day after a full moon.
Peace Tlepsh,
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 20, 2009, 01:49:13 PM
The following information is taken from the official site of the Ministry of Hajj Saudi Arabia for your information. The restricted area is shown in green color in the map given at the site. This area is called Haram (restricted area) and everywhere outside this area including the Red Sea is called Al-Hill (Free Area).
The circle imposed is irrelevant to this discussion; you assumed a sea nearby and ridiculed God's verse which even with your logic nullifies much of the world including Jerusalem:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Jerusalem+israel&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=NjCgSfSQO5DMnQevw9H8DQ&ll=31.767873,35.213928&spn=1.849359,2.032471&z=9&iwloc=addr
It's a logistics issue to accommodate tens of thousands and preserve wildlife regardless.
Example: late 7th century, choose a location for your gathering and plan the logistics?
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 01:09:44 PMPseudointellectual logic: :)
Definition: One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.
Exactly. :)
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 01:09:44 PMFebruary is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
"February is consistent with February of that year". :rotfl:
I hope that you can see why your circular reasoning is funny.
Here is what you said in your previous post:
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 01:09:44 PMA "month" is fixed: point-in-time (start of month) to point-in-time (end of month).
Time requires 2 reference points, this is basic logic else time stands still.
How is a month fixed? Is February fixed? How come it is sometimes 29 days? If a certain country makes up a month from February 1 to February 20 and calls it March and everyone in that country agrees, then is it a month?
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 01:09:44 PM2:217 They ask you about the full-moon (point-in-time) the forbidden, fighting/killing in it, say:
Makes no sense, a ?full moon? is a fixed point-in-time as a clock stuck at 12 midnight:
It makes perfect sense. People usually ask about something using an important or a clear aspect of it. When people in the past talked about "Harvest moon", this didn't mean that the harvest only took place in one point of time with the clock stuck at midnight. Full-moon is a marker for the period between two full moons. It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 5:3.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 01:09:44 PMWhen a man takes an oath, the clock starts (that day) and ends 4 "months" later.
If 100 men take oath on variable days in the same month, their end date is not the same day after a full moon.
This has already been addressed numerous times by the fact that the same wording for counting the time is used in 2:226 and 2:228. Instead of your comebacks, please see my replies to Nun on this thread. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman:
I believe that I have covered all the points that I have knowledge of from Quran. Since last Ramadan we have been going in endless debate. Since I came to this thread, I have been very flexible in changing my Suni teaching when it contradicts Quran. But with due all respects, your theory about Fasting is refuted by many Quranic verses, and therefore, I did not change my old view about Ramadan or the time of fasting. As I said, I believe that the time of fasting has been the 9th moon month in the Lunar Calender since the prophet time till today.
Moreover I believe that the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th moon months are the four restricted ones until proven wrong by Quran, Bible, or Old Testament (in other words, I need to search it more).
Please read the following view about Rammadan ( :rotfl: it is very funny...it talks about Free-minds)
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9223
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9196
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on February 21, 2009, 02:23:26 PMI believe that I have covered all the points that I have knowledge of from Quran. Since last Ramadan we have been going in endless debate. Since I came to this thread, I have been very flexible in changing my Suni teaching when it contradicts Quran. But with due all respects, your theory about Fasting is refuted by many Quranic verses, and therefore, I did not change my old view about Ramadan or the time of fasting. As I said, I believe that the time of fasting has been the 9th moon month in the Lunar Calender since the prophet time till today.
Moreover I believe that the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th moon months are the four restricted ones until proven wrong by Quran, Bible, or Old Testament (in other words, I need to search it more).
Thank you for answering my question. You see when you answer, you, I and everyone can benefit.
You earlier said that you follow "Moslems sects who are in agreement in what these months are". According to sectarians those months are Muharram (1st), Rajab (7th), Dhu al-Qi'dah (11th), Dhu al-Hijjah (12th).
So in fact, by pondering upon my question in light of the great reading (which clearly indicates that the four restricted "shahr" are consecutive), you have improved your understanding and are not following sectarians any more.
The next step for you is to stop following sectarians who think that the hunting restrictions are only for the pilgrims and only around a certain town.
Quote from: belH on February 21, 2009, 02:23:26 PMPlease read the following view about Rammadan ( :rotfl: it is very funny...it talks about Free-minds)
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9223
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9196
This is funny. Now I am tempted to go in there and post something to burst their bubble and expose their falsehood. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 21, 2009, 02:42:39 PM
Peace Belal,
Thank you for answering my question. You see when you answer, you, I and everyone can benefit.
You earlier said that you follow "Moslems sects who are in agreement in what these months are". According to sectarians those months are Muharram (1st), Rajab (7th), Dhu al-Qi'dah (11th), Dhu al-Hijjah (12th).
So in fact, by pondering upon my question in light of the great reading (which clearly indicates that the four restricted "shahr" are consecutive), you have improved your understanding and are not following sectarians any more.
Peace:
If you read my previous posts (during Ramadan) you would have noted that I agreed with you that the four restricted months are consecutive (per 9-1 to 5); hence, the Quran united us.
Quote from: ayman on February 21, 2009, 02:42:39 PM
The next step for you is to stop following sectarians who think that the hunting restrictions are only for the pilgrims and only around a certain town.
Here we can not agree; when saying that Hunting is restricted during Hajj is not because of Sectarians, but because of the verses that I posted before in which God says when hunting is violated, the person will have to kill an equal animal in Kabba (the one in Bakka and not Makaa :)). Therefore, you need to rething your position in this one.
Peace
Quote from: ayman on February 21, 2009, 12:47:05 PM
Using the fallacious logic you used above, then sectarians also say that there are many verses that tell us that the shrine in Mecca is known to the prophet and his companion and until today moslem sects are in agreement on this.
I forgot to comment on this;
First when I joined Free-minds, I thought that Makka is where the Kabba due to sunism techings; but one brother told me that if Makka is the House that prophet Ibrahim built, why the prophets who proceeded Ibrahim never visited Makka...after all, they were Moslem? Then I new that there is something wrong, and therefore I evaluated my position to "Kabba is in Bakka and not Makka" (As the Quran clearly states it).
Therefore, Sectarian are wrong in this one as they are with many other issues (e.g., Stoning to Death)
Quote from: ayman on February 21, 2009, 02:42:39 PM
This is funny. Now I am tempted to go in there and post something to burst their bubble and expose their falsehood. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Let me know when you will do that so we can all watch it.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 21, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
"February is consistent with February of that year". :rotfl:
I hope that you can see why your circular reasoning is funny.
Here is what you said in your previous post:
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
How is a month fixed? Is February fixed? How come it is sometimes 29 days? If a certain country makes up a month from February 1 to February 20 and calls it March and everyone in that country agrees, then is it a month?
Gather your self; this is like explaining simple logic to 19 followers:
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from: 2/1 - 2/28
Is that not so?
You are comparing months in different years and somehow to women?s periods. lol
QuoteIt makes perfect sense. People usually ask about something using an important or a clear aspect of it. When people in the past talked about "Harvest moon", this didn't mean that the harvest only took place in one point of time with the clock stuck at midnight. Full-moon is a marker for the period between two full moons. It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 5:3.
You may have something there, interpretation of day can vary as in time of fast (dawn-sunset) or beginning of the last day, perhaps so can month and year depending on context.
22:47 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
34:12 and to Solomon the wind it?s going early time and its departure time
Although it still doesn't help these scenarios:
2:226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 full-moons
2:234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves four full-moons and ten days
4:92 so who does not find, so fasting 2 full-moons following each other
9:2 so go in the earth, 4 full-moons
65:4 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 full-moons
If above are applicable to 100 people in a particular lunar month, all will have the same end date.
Guess they can celebrate together and call it a holiday.
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 06:18:59 PMGather your self; this is like explaining simple logic to 19 followers:
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from: 2/1 - 2/28
Is that not so?
This is not so. Those two points are not fixed but are completely arbitrary. Had January been 32 or 29 days then February 1 would be different. Here is what you said earlier:
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.Here is what I asked you and you are evading to answer:
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.February 1 and February 28 are not events. They are completely arbitrary. Can you admit that you were wrong or give a straight answer the above question or are you going to continue to evade it and subtly change your words from "events" to the conveniently vague "points" because you realized that what you said was false? Do you want to learn something or do you just want to argue?
Quote from: Pseudo on February 21, 2009, 06:18:59 PMYou may have something there, interpretation of day can vary as in time of fast (dawn-sunset) or beginning of the last day, perhaps so can month and year depending on context.
22:47 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
34:12 and to Solomon the wind it?s going early time and its departure time
Although it still doesn't help these scenarios:
2:226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 full-moons
2:234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves four full-moons and ten days
4:92 so who does not find, so fasting 2 full-moons following each other
9:2 so go in the earth, 4 full-moons
65:4 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 full-moons
If above are applicable to 100 people in a particular lunar month, all will have the same end date.
Those scenarios are perfectly consistent with the fact that 2:228 and 2:226 make it clear that "shahr" is counted in the same way as menstruations (i.e., it is counted as an event). You don't see it because you are unable to understand 2:228 and how it relates to and clarifies 2:226. I tried to explain to you but you can't listen and don't want to read those passages together. Try to put them side by side in Arabic and compare them and you will understand.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 01:30:55 AM
This is not so. Those two points are not fixed but are completely arbitrary. Had January been 32 or 29 days then February 1 would be different. Here is what you said earlier:
Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.
Here is what I asked you and you are evading to answer:
So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.
February 1 and February 28 are not events. They are completely arbitrary. Can you admit that you were wrong or give a straight answer the above question or are you going to continue to evade it and subtly change your words from "events" to the conveniently vague "points" because you realized that what you said was false? Do you want to learn something or do you just want to argue?
Same with full-moons (fixed time: point A to B) except you drop one every 3rd year to align.Nothing to argue, you brought up and keep bringing up Gregorian Feb (a time length) and large fonts as a diversion. lol
Regardless, every day is an event.
Stick to month per Quran (fixed time: point A to B).Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 01:30:55 AM
Those scenarios are perfectly consistent with the fact that 2:228 and 2:226 make it clear that "shahr" is counted in the same way as menstruations (i.e., it is counted as an event). You don't see it because you are unable to understand 2:228 and how it relates to and clarifies 2:226. I tried to explain to you but you can't listen and don't want to read those passages together. Try to put them side by side in Arabic and compare them and you will understand.
2:226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 months
2:228 the divorced (females) wait three "menstrual events"
3 events can happen in a month or never if in menopause, then wait = 3 months (65:4).
Menstruations have ZERO to do with oath in 2:226 or full moons.
Let's put your theory to practice, another equation:
58:4 so fasting two full-moons following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poor
So two full-moons according to you is FIXED = 29.53059 days
Date = June 7, questions: when exactly does June 7 start?
How do you fast .53 days and when is start and end to complete two full-moons fast?
Full-moons 2009June 7, 2:12 P.M.
June 21, summer solstice Northern Hemisphere
July 7, 5:22 A.M.
Which is "red full-moon" tell us your 10 day start - end Ramadan dates for this year, please?
Peace
Peace all,
I would like to make a contribution to this massive thread. Hope it helps. Alot of people are confused(including myself) about how can 'shahr' mean new moon and at the same time mean a period of time and at the same time mean the moon itself!. The word 'shahr' mean to make public or to reveal. Duh! But was the moon concealed to be revealed in the first place? The answer is yes. This is called the Dark Moon or the Astronomical New Moon. So what is really a 'shahr'. A 'shahr' is the period of time that begins with the appearance of the moon in the sky and ends with its disappearance. So the Dark Moon is not part of the 'Shahr'. So the Quranic months are separated from each other by the Dark Moons.
36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.
This mean that the Moon phases start as a crescent and ends as a crescent(returned) and therefore the Dark Moon is not a phase and not part of the shahr(revealed moon).
Regarding the count, we count 12 lunar cycles and restrict 4 consecutive lunar cycles. This count should be separated from the seasons. This count is a specific on/off ratio to hunting and war.
Peace,
Rami
Peace All,
Maybe Im over thinking this, but if ramadan is on the full moon after the summer solstice, then a new month, by whatever name you call it,lets just call it Ramadhan for the time, would begin on June 23rd this year and Night of the Power would be on July 7th. So the fast would begin on the 8th of July. Is this correct?
New Moon----------------Fullmoon(Penumbral eclipse)
Jun 22 19:35(7:35pm) Jul 7 09:21(9:21am)
Quranic Month: 1st(Day period of June 23rd)
Night of the Power: 16th(July 7)
First day of Fasting/Abstinence: 17th(July 8 )
Last Day of Month: 30th(July 21)
Just thought about something else. Those who keep 30 days of fasting and follow this would begin on the 17th of one Quranic month and end it in the next month. Unless they begin fasting on the new moon.
Quote from: Rami on February 22, 2009, 08:53:56 AM
Peace all,
I would like to make a contribution to this massive thread. Hope it helps. Alot of people are confused(including myself) about how can 'shahr' mean new moon and at the same time mean a period of time and at the same time mean the moon itself!. The word 'shahr' mean to make public or to reveal. Duh! But was the moon concealed to be revealed in the first place? The answer is yes. This is called the Dark Moon or the Astronomical New Moon. So what is really a 'shahr'. A 'shahr' is the period of time that begins with the appearance of the moon in the sky and ends with its disappearance. So the Dark Moon is not part of the 'Shahr'. So the Quranic months are separated from each other by the Dark Moons.
36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.
This mean that the Moon phases start as a crescent and ends as a crescent(returned) and therefore the Dark Moon is not a phase and not part of the shahr(revealed moon).
Regarding the count, we count 12 lunar cycles and restrict 4 consecutive lunar cycles. This count should be separated from the seasons. This count is a specific on/off ratio to hunting and war.
Peace,
Rami
Salaam Rami
I think part of the confusion is translating "3aada" as "return". The beginning as cited in the verse is "the moon" not the "old curved sheath"; so "3aada" here does not mean return, but "became" which is als a meaning of the word "3aada".
36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until
it became like an old curved sheath.
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 04:37:19 AMSame with full-moons (fixed time: point A to B) except you drop one every 3rd year to align.
Nothing to argue, you brought up and keep bringing up Gregorian Feb (a time length) and large fonts as a diversion. lol
At least the large font got your attention and you answered. Unfortunately, your answer demonstrates that you are making arguments out of ignorance. Here is the reason:
It is absolutely NOT the same. Full-moons are universal events that will happen with or without humans. On the other hand, February 1 to February 28 is a completely arbitrary manmade timeframe that has nothing to do with any events unlike what you falsely said. This is why if people agree that the month is 20 days from February 1 to 20 then this will be the new February and it will also be a "month".
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 04:37:19 AMRegardless, every day is an event. Stick to month per Quran (fixed time: point A to B).
You are again arguing from ignorance.
If not, then tell us what is the event in the day that marks the period between the beginning and end of your "month"? The great reading never says "a month is an arbitrary fixed time between manmade point A and B". Please show us such passage.Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 04:37:19 AM2:226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 months
2:228 the divorced (females) wait three "menstrual events"
3 events can happen in a month or never if in menopause, then wait = 3 months (65:4).
Menstruations have ZERO to do with oath in 2:226 or full moons.
I told you to post the ARABIC so that you can see that the word used to count the waiting period in 2:228 and 2:226 is the same, which indicates that the method of counting (counting events of full-moon and menstruation) is the same.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 04:37:19 AMLet's put your theory to practice, another equation:
58:4 so fasting two full-moons following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poor
So two full-moons according to you is FIXED = 29.53059 days
Date = June 7, questions: when exactly does June 7 start?
How do you fast .53 days and when is start and end to complete two full-moons fast?
Do you think that someone can fast the whole 29.53 days (including the .53) without dying? The two consecutive full-moons are simply markers for when to start and end the fast. Of course the fast is from dawn to sunset and .53 or whatever doesn't factor. It is simply the "dawn to sunset" daily timeframe from one full-moon to the next. How hard can this be to figure out?
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 04:37:19 AMFull-moons 2009
June 7, 2:12 P.M.
June 21, summer solstice Northern Hemisphere
July 7, 5:22 A.M.
Which is "red full-moon" tell us your 10 day start - end Ramadan dates for this year, please?
The one after the summer solstice is the scorching (red hot) full-moon (both red and happens during the hot time of the year). You need to keep in mind however that the beginning of July 7th on midnight is arbitrary. The new day actually starts at dawn. Therefore, please note that the full-moon will actually happen on the night of July 6th and thus the first day of fasting is July 7th, for 10 days.
From:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
I combined the data from moonrise to moonset for Jul 6 and 7 to avoid the artificial midnight break.
Night of Jul 6, 2009 Eastern Standard Time combined data:
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 0.6 123.5 1.00
19:40 2.0 125.1 1.00
19:50 3.5 126.6 1.00
20:00 4.9 128.2 1.00
20:10 6.4 129.9 1.00
20:20 7.8 131.6 1.00
20:30 9.2 133.3 1.00
20:40 10.5 135.0 1.00
20:50 11.9 136.8 1.00
21:00 13.1 138.7 1.00
21:10 14.4 140.5 1.00
21:20 15.6 142.5 1.00
21:30 16.7 144.4 1.00
21:40 17.8 146.5 1.00
21:50 18.8 148.5 1.00
22:00 19.8 150.6 1.00
22:10 20.7 152.8 1.00
22:20 21.5 155.0 1.00
22:30 22.3 157.2 1.00
22:40 23.0 159.5 1.00
22:50 23.7 161.8 1.00
23:00 24.2 164.1 1.00
23:10 24.7 166.5 1.00
23:20 25.1 168.9 1.00
23:30 25.5 171.3 1.00
23:40 25.7 173.8 1.00
23:50 25.9 176.2 1.00
00:00 26.0 178.7 1.00
00:10 26.0 181.1 1.00
00:20 26.0 183.6 1.00
00:30 25.8 186.1 1.00
00:40 25.6 188.5 1.00
00:50 25.3 191.0 1.00
01:00 24.9 193.4 1.00
01:10 24.5 195.8 1.00
01:20 23.9 198.1 1.00
01:30 23.3 200.5 1.00
01:40 22.6 202.7 1.00
01:50 21.9 205.0 1.00
02:00 21.1 207.2 1.00
02:10 20.2 209.4 1.00
02:20 19.2 211.5 1.00
02:30 18.2 213.6 1.00
02:40 17.2 215.7 1.00
02:50 16.1 217.7 1.00
03:00 14.9 219.6 1.00
03:10 13.7 221.5 1.00
03:20 12.4 223.4 1.00
03:30 11.1 225.2 1.00
03:40 9.8 227.0 1.00
03:50 8.4 228.8 1.00
04:00 7.0 230.5 1.00
04:10 5.6 232.2 1.00
04:20 4.1 233.8 1.00
04:30 2.7 235.4 1.00
04:40 1.3 237.0 1.00
Please notice that not only is the moon full but also it follows a low path accross the horizon and rises to a maximum of only 26 degrees so it looks fuller and more red than the next night's moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Samia and Rami,
Quote from: Samia on February 22, 2009, 11:27:55 AM36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it became like an old curved sheath.
Please also note that the word "manazil" has the connotation of "descending". So a more literal translation would be:
36:39. And the moon We have measured it to appear in descending stages, until it became like an old curved sheath.Of course, the moon can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 01:20:57 PM
You are again arguing from ignorance. If not, then tell us what is the event in the day that marks the period between the beginning and end of your "month"?
The great reading never says "a month is an arbitrary fixed time between manmade point A and B". Please show us such passage.
You are making ignorant assumptions. I stated month (Quran) is fixed. You keep coming back with February (irrelevant to discussion and a diversion).
Days, months, years all start with dawn of a new day, not with new moon or full moon. Thread is about your hot moon. lol
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 01:20:57 PM
I told you to post the ARABIC so that you can see that the word used to count the waiting period in 2:228 and 2:226 is the same, which indicates that the method of counting (counting events of full-moon and menstruation) is the same.
So all verses with root ربص means to wait on full-moon? lol
قل تربصوا فاني معكم من المتربصين
Qul tarabbasoo fa-innee maAAakum mina almutarabbiseena
52:31 Say: "Wait so that I am with you from the waiting."
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 01:20:57 PM
Do you think that someone can fast the whole 29.53 days (including the .53) without dying? The two consecutive full-moons are simply markers for when to start and end the fast. Of course the fast is from dawn to sunset and .53 or whatever doesn't factor. It is simply the "dawn to sunset" daily timeframe from one full-moon to the next. How hard can this be to figure out?
It is simple except when using full-moons then it is not consistent:
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest of poor
4:92 so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other
2 full moons
fixed = 1 lunar cycle or 29/30 days whereas in below:
2:234 يتربصن
Widows wait 4 full moons
variable =
3 to 4 lunar cycles + 10 days depends on start date.
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 01:20:57 PM
The one after the summer solstice is the scorching (red hot) full-moon (both red and happens during the hot time of the year).
Why choose the full moon in July and not the full moon in June?
The Old Farmer's Almanac Moon Phase Calendarhttp://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009
The full Moon name for this month is Full Strawberry Moon. The Algonquin tribes knew this Moon as a time to gather ripening strawberries. It is also known as the Rose Moon and the Hot Moon.
Last year the June Moon Illusion before the summer solstice was huge:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 07:29:39 PMYou are making ignorant assumptions. I stated month (Quran) is fixed. You keep coming back with February (irrelevant to discussion and a diversion).
It is not my problem that you don't have the capacity to even know what you stated. Here is the nonsense that you stated:
February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from: 2/1 - 2/28Is February a month or not a month?
So when you say "month", you mean something like February or January or whatever, which is why you said the above. So according to you, when the great reading talks about "shahr", it means a month like February. If you disagree then tell us what your Pseudo "month" is.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 07:29:39 PMSo all verses with root ربص means to wait on full-moon? lol
You are playing dumb and wasting everyone's time. I already showed you that 2:228 is using the same word to wait for menstruations (an event) and I already told you that it means waiting for an event (which is the same way "shahr"/full-moon and menstruations are counted).
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 07:29:39 PM
قل تربصوا فاني معكم من المتربصين
Qul tarabbasoo fa-innee maAAakum mina almutarabbiseena
52:31 Say: "Wait so that I am with you from the waiting."
Exactly, they are waiting for an event. They are not counting every second, minute, hour and day, etc. in a continuous period.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 07:29:39 PMIt is simple
You say so because you simply blindly follow sectarians. If not and you really have it figured out then tell us when do you fast and why?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 08:39:19 PM
It is not my problem that you don't have the capacity to even know what you stated. Here is the nonsense that you stated:
February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from: 2/1 - 2/28
Is February a month or not a month?
Yes, it is a Gregorian month (fixed time length standard between two points). Not per Quran.
Why are you constantly harping about Feb? This nothing but diversion. Topic is your hot moon.
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 08:39:19 PM
You are playing dumb and wasting everyone's time. I already showed you that 2:228 is using the same word to wait for menstruations (an event) and I already told you that it means waiting for an event (which is the same way "shahr"/full-moon and menstruations are counted).
I am not playing and you are truly clueless. The things we count or told to wait on are not the same:
Months are not full moons or menstruations. These are not all waiting on full moons because they use same word as you infer:
http://www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root: ربص
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 08:39:19 PM
Exactly, they are waiting for an event. They are not counting every second, minute, hour and day, etc. in a continuous period.
These are not waiting on full moons, they are waiting on months (a number of days dawns-sunsets):
You said they are waiting on full moons and avoid answering the non consistency:
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest of poor
4:92 so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other
2 full moons
fixed = 1 lunar cycle or 29/30 days whereas in below:
2:234 يتربصن
Widows wait 4 full moons
variable =
3 to 4 lunar cycles + 10 days depends on start date.
You fasted in the wrong month, cut short number of days to fast. You are lost and teaching others to do the same:
The Old Farmer's Almanac Moon Phase Calendarhttp://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009
Quote
The full Moon name for this month is Full Strawberry Moon. The Algonquin tribes knew this Moon as a time to gather ripening strawberries. It is also known as the Rose Moon and the Hot Moon.
Last year the June Moon Illusion before the summer solstice was huge:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 08:39:19 PM
You say so because you simply blindly follow sectarians. If not and you really have it figured out then tell us when do you fast and why?
I fasted today to make up for missed days. Admit this red hot moon is nonsense. The above should be enough to put this to rest.
I'll post my thoughts later (God willing) when I have time in another thread.
Enough said.
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 11:13:23 PMYes, it is a Gregorian month (fixed time length standard between two points). Not per Quran.
Why are you constantly harping about Feb? This nothing but diversion. Topic is your hot moon.
Topic is the correct understanding of the timing. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with my understanding. If you are not obsessed then forget everything I said and tell us what is a month according to your understanding?
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 11:13:23 PMYou fasted in the wrong month, cut short number of days to fast. You are lost and teaching others to do the same
Before you judge people, tell us when do you fast? Everyone can then see who is fasting at a wrong manmade arbitrary time.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 11:13:23 PMI fasted today to make up for missed days.
When were those missed dates? When quizzed on specifics, you are conveniently vague because you are either clueless or blindly following sectarians.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 22, 2009, 11:13:23 PMI'll post my thoughts later when I have time in another thread.
We have been hearing this since you were Nun. So it is obviously just a lazy excuse. Just stop your empty talk and do it right here and now and then I can thank you for it and we can have a balanced two sided discussion. :peace:
Peace,
Ayman
QuoteTopic is your hot moon.
Hahahahahahaha ;D
I've been reading through all these comments(well skipped a few pages) and all I got was a headache lol! But good debate at least.....I hope this arguement can be resolved by next ramadan
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 11:33:14 PM
We have been hearing this since you were Nun. So it is obviously just a lazy excuse. Just stop your empty talk and do it right here and now and then I can thank you for it and we can have a balanced two sided discussion. :peace:
Day/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles
Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years
2:197 The Hajj (are in) known months
I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples:
(http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/FIG02_004.JPG)
Also that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23:
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009
This solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time:
22:47 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
2:185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it
2:226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2:234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
4:92 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
9:2 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
34:12 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
65:4 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles
Could also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition. :peace:
Go-ahead and critic.
Peace
Peace Ayman,
At the beginning, I agreed completely with the concept of the 'red full-moon' being the true identifier for "shahr ramadhan". However, I'm starting to consider other sources, and all of the factors are not adding up. For example, the Qur'aan explicitly says that this period of abstanation has been decreed for us as it was with 'those before us', or the Jews and Nazarenes ("people of the scripture"). Well, the Jews or Nazarenes never used the 'red moon' as an identifier at all. In fact, they considered the onset of a month to begin at the sighting of the new moon, not the full moon. The followed a completely luni-solar calendar (primarily lunar), which seems very logical in this perspective... Since their years have approximately 12 months in a lunar system (actually 12.4 months), their calendar loses 11 days every year, and when they add a 13th month into the equation, they gain 19 days to keep up with the solar year cycle. Based on this, it's very likely that this is exactly what the Qur'aan was talking about when it mentioned those who add a 13th cycle into their year, since the 'shahr' (month/moon) count with God is 12.
I agree with your perceptions regarding this when it comes to other external factors, but some of these ideas are inconsistent with the teachings of the Torah, which is therefore contradictory towards the Reading... Is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of a full moon? Or is it possible that "ramadhan" was actually the name of a period of time (i.e. a month) during the pre-Qur'aanic period? Your depiction of the Qur'aanic calendar is very similar to the ancient and modern Jewish calendar; it differs in the identification of the period. You say the beginning of a month is determined by the sighting of the full moon, while the Jews and Nazarenes insist on sighting the new moon, just like sectarian Muslims...
I also agree with the characterization of "ramadhan" referring to 'scorching heat', and not referring to the name of an Arabic month. It's just the interpretation of "shahru" that's making me wonder. Based on the scriptural precedents in the Torah, it seems more likely that the "shahr" would be referring to the new moon, not the full moon, therefore alluding to a specific month. So, the passage could be written, according to this theory, as:
The new moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the new moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling, so a count of other days. God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify God for what He guided you, and perhaps you would be appreciative. (2:185)
So, is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of the full one? Don't they consist of equal time periods (i.e. waiting 2 full moons is equal to waiting 2 new moons)? Since both of them are based on the actual natural factors in the universe, determined as timing mechanisms, neither of these can be accurately called "arbitrary" or "inconsistent". What do you think? Can this time or occurance called "shahru ramadhan" be referring to the sighting of the new moon during a hot time of the year (i.e. during the summer solstice)?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Bilal,
Yes the Quran states that the fasting is ordained to us as it was ordained to the previous generations. So it must be at least in the Book of Moses. And no it's not found there. Even the Yom Kippur was made a fasting day by the traditions. There is not even Salat except later on and it is very elusive in the Hebrew scriptures. Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.
Peace,
Rami
Peace Rami,
Quote from: Rami on February 25, 2009, 02:02:30 AM
Yes the Quran states that the fasting is ordained to us as it was ordained to the previous generations. So it must be at least in the Book of Moses. And no it's not found there. Even the Yom Kippur was made a fasting day by the traditions. There is not even Salat except later on and it is very elusive in the Hebrew scriptures. Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.
I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...
Peace,
Ahmad
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on February 25, 2009, 07:59:56 AM
Peace Rami,
I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...
Peace,
Ahmad
???
BOGUS SCRIPTURE ???
Peace,
Quote from: Rami on February 25, 2009, 02:02:30 AM
Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.
It's not what is being implied, read verses in context, Torah is in Quran else no need to repeat stories.
See reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597564.msg192940#msg192940
New moon and it's cycles were known and used by all peoples across the world. Issues and intercalation are due to trying to sync days to lunar cycles or lunar cycles to solar cycles. No need:
count days dawn-sunset
count years solstice-solstice
count 12 months (new moon-new moon) in year
Restart count for next 12 lunar cycles with new moon after solstice (start Ramadan next dawn)
18:25 And they stayed in their cave three hundred years and add nine
300 solar years = (lunar cycles x 12) 309 lunar years
28:27 He said: "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for)
eight hijajin, so if you completed ten...
Hajj equated with years, one Ramadan/Hajj per year, 300 in 300 years, not 309 as would be case under current Islamic calendar.
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PMGo-ahead and critic.
Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding. I am very familiar with your theory because at one point a few years ago before I reached my present understanding, I actually considered it. Therefore, don't take what I am going to say as criticism targeted at you. I am merely sharing the same exact critic that I told myself as I was going through my own thought process on the matter.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PMDay/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles
Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years
This was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 9:36, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".
Quote from: Pseudo on February 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PM2:197 The Hajj (are in) known months
I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples:
Unfortunately, there are no such "months" known "throughout antiquity by all peoples". In fact, people have always used and continued to use different calendars with different months. This is reality.
On the other hand, what ALL people knew were the full-moon universal cosmic events. Therefore, all civilizations have always known the harvest full-moon and it is not a coincidence that it precisely corresponds to the feast/"hajj" Sukkot of the people of the book. It is not a coincidence that this biggest feast ("al-hajj al-akbar") is precisely full-moon number FOUR counting from the scorching/"ramadhan" full moon after the summer solstice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon
It is also not a coincidence that ALL people knew that the hunting restriction was lifted and hunting resumed afterwards and therefore, the next full-moon is called Hunter Moon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter's_moon
The name was used by people all over the world. In fact even Native Americans who didn't come into contact with Europeans until after the discovery of the Americas, used the same exact name Hunter Moon as the Europeans.
So indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PMAlso that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23:
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009
There are several major problems with the above:
1. The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon. The festival of Matzot and the feast of hagg HaSukkot start at the time of the full moons. In particular, the hagg HaSukkot, the most important feast (al-hajj al-akbar) for the people of the book (and all people), falls on the last full-moon of the restricted full-moons starting from the scorching full-moon.
2. The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.
3. The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PMThis solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time:
22:47 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
2:185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it
2:226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2:234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
4:92 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
9:2 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
34:12 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
65:4 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles
This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies:
1. It creates a major inconsistency between 2:226 and 2:228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
2. It creates inequality between 2:185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.
3. It creates inequality between 2:184 and 2:185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2:184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).
4. It creates redundancy in 2:185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
5. It violates the clear command in 9:36 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PMCould also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition.
No, it cannot be the equinoxes as per 17:12. In 17:12 we are clearly told that the god made the night and day for knowing the number of years. The only way to use the night and day to know the number of years is to use them to mark the period between the shortest/longest night/day and the next shortest/longest night/day. These are the solstices and not the equinoxes. Of course, the etymology of "ramadhan" points to the summer solstice and it also not a coincidence that it fits perfectly with everything we know about harvest feasts/"hajj" and hunting restriction.
As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".
As you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2:226 and 2:228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.
As I said, I already know all the major problems with your theory because at one point I held the same view as you and the critique that I said to you above, I had already said to myself. May we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ahmad,
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on February 24, 2009, 11:54:34 PMYour depiction of the Qur'aanic calendar is very similar to the ancient and modern Jewish calendar; it differs in the identification of the period. You say the beginning of a month is determined by the sighting of the full moon, while the Jews and Nazarenes insist on sighting the new moon, just like sectarian Muslims...
The great reading is not talking about calendars at all. It is talking about natural cosmic phenonmena independent from any calendar ans that are used to time the hunting restriction, the feast and the fast. Also, although the Jews use the new moon to begin their month, their feasts/hagg actually begin on the full-moon. Remember that the god said that the feast/hagg (not months) is known "shahr".
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on February 24, 2009, 11:54:34 PMSo, is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of the full one? Don't they consist of equal time periods (i.e. waiting 2 full moons is equal to waiting 2 new moons)? Since both of them are based on the actual natural factors in the universe, determined as timing mechanisms, neither of these can be accurately called "arbitrary" or "inconsistent". What do you think? Can this time or occurance called "shahru ramadhan" be referring to the sighting of the new moon during a hot time of the year (i.e. during the summer solstice)?
Please see my response to Pseudo above to see why new moon is not correct.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 25, 2009, 02:38:23 PM
Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding.
Likewise, thank you for being diligent. Your understanding has helped me see in a new light. It seems the only difference with our opinions is with new moon or full moon.
QuoteThis was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 9:36, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".
No need to sync, see prior reply above:
12 lunar cycles occur in one year, similar to your dropping/not counting a cycle.
Count 12 cycles (new moon-new moon) in one year
Restart count for next 12 cycles starting with new moon after solstice (Ramadan begins next dawn)
QuoteSo indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.
Perhaps a separate topic (occurs same time of year), let's figure out new or full moon after solstice.
QuoteThere are several major problems with the above:
1. The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon.
2. The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.
People of the book and all cultures used new moons, Quran mentions moon phases/sequences/steps (10:5 and 36:39)
Quote3. The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.
As for witness, I'll refer you to a prior post:
Quote from: ayman on February 21, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 5:3.
In addition: one can argue that a 1% new moon is more distinguishable than 99% full moon. We know that new moons and full moons happened during days and nights. We know that even a spec of light is always easier to discern, how eyes work, we see stars in the night. If a person woke up went out side without knowing, which is easier to distinguish?
1% new moon during daytime (worst viewing)
(http://www.karaite-korner.org/1Oct2008Jerusalem_a_small.jpg)
99% before/after full moon during night (optimum viewing)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2589465288_9d4638f7ae.jpg)
99% full moon during the day or night is impossible to distinguish from a 100% full moon.
(http://online.edfac.unimelb.edu.au/blog/2008group31/files/2008/05/moon-during-the-day-22-05-08.JPG)
Quote
This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies:
1. It creates a major inconsistency between 2:226 and 2:228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
Already addressed earlier, wait does not always imply to wait on full moons; wait can mean event or time length.
http://www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root: ربص
Quote2. It creates inequality between 2:185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.
One night is part of the cycle. Statement that Quran (even if one ayat) descended in June is true in any night in June.
Quote3. It creates inequality between 2:184 and 2:185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2:184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).
This is relative as in 12:20 (a low price) or 11:8, 3:24 (a short time). Few/some is بِضْعَ
Fee bidAAi sineena
30:4 In few years
falabitha fee alssijni bidAAa sineena
12:42 so he stayed in the prison few/some years.
Quote4. It creates redundancy in 2:185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
Not so, read in context to see why...
2:85 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days.
God wills/wants with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty/hardship, and to complete the term... Quote5. It violates the clear command in 9:36 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.
As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".
Same as a day can be dawn-sunset or start of a new era; the month of fasting; the year of Noah.
QuoteAs you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2:226 and 2:228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.
Politely disagree, see prior replies, and again you fasted on the wrong full moon, evidenced that last years 2008 full moon illusion occurred on June 18th only 3 days before solstice, reason it was huge:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
The full moon on July 18th 2008, almost a month after solstice was average, nothing compared to above.
QuoteMay we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.
Of course, that is Quran!
Peace
Quote from: ayman on February 22, 2009, 11:33:14 PM
Peace Pseudo,
We have been hearing this since you were Nun.
Salaam
I am so happy that Nun is back. ;D
:welcome: Pseudo
:peace:
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMLikewise, thank you for being diligent. Your understanding has helped me see in a new light. It seems the only difference with our opinions is with new moon or full moon.
This is actually not our only difference. There is one more difference which is causing several problems in your understanding. The other difference is that you are not considering the new moon but you are consideing the new moon cycle.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMNo need to sync, see prior reply above:
12 lunar cycles occur in one year, similar to your dropping/not counting a cycle.
This is not similar. You are counting a continuous time period (a cycle). Unlike an integer event, in a continuous time period fractions must be counted. Hence, one can get half a cycle or a third of a cycle. On the other hand, the event of the full moon (or the new moon) either happens or doesn't (0 or 1).
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMCount 12 cycles (new moon-new moon) in one year
Restart count for next 12 cycles starting with new moon after solstice (Ramadan begins next dawn)
This is false. You don't get 12 cycles in a year. You get 12 and a fraction. If you are counting only complete cycles between solstices then you will sometimes get 11 cycles and not 12. For example, if the first new moon event after the solstice occurs on July 17 then you will only count 11 complete cycles in a year (with the last complete cycle ending June 1st). So you either have to count fractions or you will end up with 11 new moon cycles. Try it. This is probably why Anwar chose to use a fixed cycle of 30 days that is disconnected from the moon.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMPerhaps a separate topic (occurs same time of year), let's figure out new or full moon after solstice.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMPeople of the book and all cultures used new moons,
No. When it came to timing the "hajj", they used full-moon. Also, this is not just about the people of the book but about all people. All people used the full-moon to time the harvest feast/"hajj" and the resumption of hunting.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMQuran mentions moon phases/sequences/steps (10:5 and 36:39)
But NEVER specifically the new-moon. If you disagree then show even one passage that does.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMIn addition: one can argue that a 1% new moon is more distinguishable than 99% full moon. We know that new moons and full moons happened during days and nights. We know that even a spec of light is always easier to discern, how eyes work, we see stars in the night. If a person woke up went out side without knowing, which is easier to distinguish?
1% new moon during daytime (worst viewing)
99% before/after full moon during night (optimum viewing)
99% full moon during the day or night is impossible to distinguish from a 100% full moon.
It is extremely hard to witness the new-moon under any conditions. I guarantee that you have NEVER witnessed it. What you see is typically the 1-3 days old new-moon. On the other hand, you undoubtedly witnessed the full-moon many times. This is reality.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMAlready addressed earlier, wait does not always imply to wait on full moons; wait can mean event or time length.
http://www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root: ربص
Again, it ALWAYS means waiting for an event and not counting a continuous time period. Read the passages carefully. The event is sometimes victory or defeat (4:141) or the coming of the god's decree (9:24) or two good outcomes (9:52) or waiting for things to turn against you (9:98), or until a hoped for event (23:25, 57:14), or until judgment day (20:135), or a calamity that time brings (52:30, 31).
Moreover, the parallels in 2:226 and 2:228 indicate that the method of counting is the same.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMOne night is part of the cycle. Statement that Quran (even if one ayat) descended in June is true in any night in June.
No. Otherwise it would have been sufficient to simply say the specific night.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMThis is relative as in 12:20 (a low price) or 11:8, 3:24 (a short time). Few/some is بِضْعَ
Fee bidAAi sineena
30:4 In few years
falabitha fee alssijni bidAAa sineena
12:42 so he stayed in the prison few/some years.
In all the contexts "ma3doodat" means few. Also, this doesn't resolve the redundancy if it is already known that "shahr" means "new moon cycle" or 29 days.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMNot so, read in context to see why...
2:85 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days. God wills/wants with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty/hardship, and to complete the term...
I don't see how this resolves the redundancy.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 25, 2009, 06:27:23 PMSame as a day can be dawn-sunset or start of a new era; the month of fasting; the year of Noah.
Politely disagree, see prior replies, and again you fasted on the wrong full moon, evidenced that last years 2008 full moon illusion occurred on June 18th only 3 days before solstice, reason it was huge:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
The full moon on July 18th 2008, almost a month after solstice was average, nothing compared to above.
The full-moon around the solstice is not just about being red and appearing bigger, the term "scorching" is also about heat. Only the one AFTER the solstice fits all the parameters since it will certainly be hotter at the time of the moon after the solstice than the one before the solstice. You are also contradicting what you said above about "Restart count with new moon after solstice". In other words, the one before the summer solstice that is so close to it (under 11 days) is going to be the 13th new or full moon (in my case full-moon) which is not counted.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 25, 2009, 10:55:37 PM
the event of the full moon (or the new moon) either happens or doesn't (0 or 1).
...So you either have to count fractions or you will end up with 11 new moon cycles. Try it. This is probably why Anwar chose to use a fixed cycle of 30 days that is disconnected from the moon.
Same as you drop a cycle; count 12 whole/complete in a year starting from solstice.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
New Moon Cycle
Solstice
07/03/2008 1
08/01/2008 2
08/30/2008 3
09/29/2008 4
10/28/2008 5
11/27/2008 6
12/27/2008 7
01/26/2009 8
02/25/2009 9
03/26/2009 10
04/25/2009 11
05/24/2009 12
Solstice
06/22/2009 1
07/22/2009 2
08/20/2009 3
09/18/2009 4
10/18/2009 5
11/16/2009 6
12/16/2009 7
01/15/2010 8
02/14/2010 9
03/15/2010 10
04/14/2010 11
05/14/2010 12
06/12/2010
no countSolstice
7/11/2010 1
QuoteBut NEVER specifically the new-moon. If you disagree then show even one passage that does.
It says use the phases/sequences/steps (10:5 and 36:39) so we use them:
http://www.rodurago.de/en/index.php?month=2&year=2009&geodata=40.45,-74.00,-5&site=details&link=calendar#showcalendar
QuoteIt is extremely hard to witness the new-moon under any conditions. I guarantee that you have NEVER witnessed it. What you see is typically the 1-3 days old new-moon. On the other hand, you undoubtedly witnessed the full-moon many times. This is reality.
Others for thousands of years have. I did see last year's big moon before the solstice and it freaked me out, although not sure if it was a full moon or not.
How long is a full moon event; a minute, an hour, a day, what is the "window" to see/witness the moment?
QuoteAgain, it ALWAYS means waiting for an event and not counting a continuous time period. Read the passages carefully. The event is sometimes victory or defeat (4:141) or the coming of the god's decree (9:24) or two good outcomes (9:52) or waiting for things to turn against you (9:98), or until a hoped for event (23:25, 57:14), or until judgment day (20:135), or a calamity that time brings (52:30, 31).
Moreover, the parallels in 2:226 and 2:228 indicate that the method of counting is the same.
No, the widows in waiting extra 10 days appended to the event destroy that argument.
2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten (days).
The above wait period 4 events + 10 days = continuous time.
Year Month Day Time Day of week
2009 Mar 11 02:40 Wed
Example: two men expire on the same night of full moon leaving widows and no one is there to witness, all were sleeping, only person awake was blind (hint). lol
Mr. X expires 2 hrs before full moon, wait time = 3 lunar months + 10 days
Mr. Y expires 2 hrs after a full moon, wait time = 4 lunar months + 10 days
QuoteNo. Otherwise it would have been sufficient to simply say the specific night
To say I was born during a night in March is a true statement.
QuoteIn all the contexts "ma3doodat" means few.
I render it as "numbered" in all contexts.
QuoteI don't see how this resolves the redundancy.
I don?t see the redundancy, it?s a simple statement. If sick, make up days missed:
2:85 ?God wills with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty, and to complete the term...
QuoteThe full-moon around the solstice is not just about being red and appearing bigger, the term "scorching" is also about heat.
I take it you'll cease and desist using full moon illusion as an argument. ;D
Peace
Quote from: farida on February 25, 2009, 07:20:46 PM
Salaam
I am so happy that Nun is back. ;D
:welcome: Pseudo
:peace:
Salaam Farida -- thank you.
How far away can one really go except a few clicks on a key board. ;D
:peace:
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PM
Same as you drop a cycle; count 12 whole/complete in a year starting from solstice.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
New Moon Cycle
Solstice
07/03/2008 1
08/01/2008 2
You are confused in your counting. You are saying that you are counting the cycle but you are actually counting the event of the new moon. On 7/03/2008 there is no complete cycle. The complete cycle is from 7/03/2008 to 08/01/2008 ----> 1 cycle. So unless you changed your mind and now acknowledge that we are counting events and not cycles, you should write:
07/03/2008
08/01/2008 1
This is why you will often get 11 cycles only in a year.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMIt says use the phases/sequences/steps (10:5 and 36:39) so we use them:
So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?
On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMOthers for thousands of years have.
Why is it always "others" whenever I ask this question? Is this what is meant by 2:185 "whoever OTHER than you witnesses"? :)
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMI did see last year's big moon before the solstice and it freaked me out, although not sure if it was a full moon or not.
How long is a full moon event; a minute, an hour, a day, what is the "window" to see/witness the moment?
The one after the summer solstice will also freak you out and it will be during the hot time of the year. It is not about a minute or an hour. It is not about the theoretical full-moon which may not be even above the horizon. It is about witnessing the optical phenomenon of the scorching full-moon as it slowly rises during the night taking a low path accross the horizon.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMNo, the widows in waiting extra 10 days appended to the event destroy that argument.
2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten (days).
The above wait period 4 events + 10 days = continuous time.
No. This actually destroys your argument. Had it been a continuous time then the god would have said 4 1/3 "shahr" instead of 4 shahr and 10 days.
Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2:189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (36:39). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2:234.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMTo say I was born during a night in March is a true statement.
You made it so by making one statement.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMI render it as "numbered" in all contexts.
You are then inventing your own meaning since this is not a meaning that is supported by Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMI don?t see the redundancy, it?s a simple statement. If sick, make up days missed:
2:85 ?God wills with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty, and to complete the term...
Making up the days already covers it. Your understanding makes completing the term redundant.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 26, 2009, 07:53:32 PMI take it you'll cease and desist using full moon illusion as an argument. ;D
The full moon illusion freaked you out so it is definitely a strong argument :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
Peace Pseudo,
So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?
On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".
Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2:189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (36:39). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2:234.
Peace Ayman,
In 2:234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?
According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.
يسمَّى القمر لليلتين من أَول الشهر هِلالاً ولليلتين من آخر الشهر ستٍّ وعشرين وسبعٍ وعشرين هِلالاً ويسمى ما بين ذلك قمراً
The information for hilal is given under the root word(هلل)
And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?
Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (اهل) says:
Hum ahlu ahlatin (هُمْ أَهْلُ أَهْلَةٍ) and (أَهِلَةٍ) means: They are people of the distinguished sort.
(أَهْلِيََّةٌ) Ahliyatun means: The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert: meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.
Does ahilla in 2:189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?
Peace Tlepsh,
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 27, 2009, 01:36:38 PMIn 2:234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?
2:196 tells us that those who can't find a donation should fast 3 days in the feast and 7 days when they return (if their family is not in the inviolable institution of obedience). This means that if their family is, then they should fast the full 10 days in the feast.
Also, 2:203 tells us that the feast is a few days (3-10) and that people can hurry in 2 days or stay longer. So the minimum is given as 2 days and the maximum is not given because it is known that "ma3doodat"/few means 3-10. So the maximum is automatically 10.
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 27, 2009, 01:36:38 PMAccording to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.
يسمَّى القمر لليلتين من أَول الشهر هِلالاً ولليلتين من آخر الشهر ستٍّ وعشرين وسبعٍ وعشرين هِلالاً ويسمى ما بين ذلك قمراً
The information for hilal is given under the root word(هلل)
The dictionary wrongly implies that the lunar cycle is fixed 28 days when in fact it is 29.5 days so it can be 29 or 30 days. So starting from the 26th, this is 3-4 days and not 2. Also, the shape of the crescent as described in 36:39 actually appears 4-5 days before the end of the cycle. This means 10 days after the full moon.
Also, the dictionary is clearly wrong and illogical in saying that otherwise the moon/"qamar" is named moon/"qamar" (I hope that you can see how the dictionary contradicts itself here). This is confirmed by the passages in the great reading that tell us, for example, that the moon/"qamar" swims in an orbit (21:33). Surely, the moon in all its stages swims in an orbit and not just when full or except when not a crescent as the dictionary suggests.
As I said many times on this thread, the term "new-moon" is NEVER mentioned in the great reading. The term "ahilat" means crescents (both waning and waxing) and NOT "new moon".
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 27, 2009, 01:36:38 PMAnd in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?
Because there are two types of crescents ?ahilla?. If you look up at the sky and see a crescent and you counted 10 days, you will know right away that it is the waning crescent. If you counted 15 days then it is the waxing crescent.
Unless there is a strong reason to doubt the dictionary meaning then it looks like the correct meaning, especially since it fits in the context of timing.
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 27, 2009, 01:36:38 PMLane?s Lexicon under the root word (اهل) says:
Hum ahlu ahlatin (هُمْ أَهْلُ أَهْلَةٍ) and (أَهِلَةٍ) means: They are people of the distinguished sort.
(أَهْلِيََّةٌ) Ahliyatun means: The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert: meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.
Does ahilla in 2:189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?
The word ?ahal? also means things such as bring forth or offer (5:3) and a few other things. Arabic like all human languages is full of inconsistencies. So just because words share the same root it doesn?t mean that sometimes there will not be exceptions that diverge considerably from the root. For example, ?nifaq? (hypocrisy) and ?infaq? (spending) are both from the root NFQ. The same is true in all human languages, even for the same exact words. For example in English the word ?light? can mean the two completely different meanings of ?luminosity? or the opposite of ?heavy?. So please keep this in mind unless you irrationally believe that Arabic is some kind of divine language that suddenly fell from the sky.
Now back to your question about 2:189. I don?t think that there is yet a convincing reason to doubt the meaning of ?ahilat? as ?crescents?, especially given the context of timing. If there is a convincing strong reason in the future and that better fits in the context then we can revisit.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Rami,
Quote from: Rami on February 25, 2009, 09:09:19 AM
???BOGUS SCRIPTURE ???
What are you saying is a "bogus scripture" - the Qur'aan or the Torah? :-\
Peace Ayman,
Perhaps, "shahr ramadhan" equals "yom kippur". Both are decreed in the scriptures. What does the Qur'aan say about the fast of "yom kippur"? According to the some Jewish traditions, the Torah was given to Moses on at Mount Sinai on the "yom kippur" (day of atonement)... Coincidentally, the Qur'aan mentions this day as being the same day and observance:
Ramadan is the (moon) during which the Qur'aan was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and "al-furqaan" (the criterion/statute book). Those of you who witness this (moon) shall fast therein... (2:185)
Here, it says the criterion/statute book was sent down on "shahr ramadhan" as well, and this is the scripture sent down to Moses and Aaron (see 21:48). So, perhaps the "shahr ramadhan" is in harmony with the "yom kippur" of the Jews. Could this be a possibility?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Ayman,
Thank you for your reply but I will repeat some of my questions:
If I am not mistaken according your understanding from 2.189 Ahilla (the crescents) are timing devices for people and hajj. Because the time required from the full moon to waning crescent is 10 days and from waxing crescent to the full moon is 10 days. These 10 days fits with the 10 days of fasting, 10 days of hajj, and 10 days of the period in 2:234.
If God says us that the crescents are timing devices and if the time between the full moon and any of the two crescents is 10 days; then why in 2:234 it does not say that the women shall trabbasu 4 ashhur (full moon) and the hilal (the waning crescent) which is 4 full moons and 10 days?
God will not tell us that the (hilal)s are timing devices and he will not use this timing device for us. Therefore I have doubt that ahilla in 2.189 is something else than the crescents. The meaning of (mikat) in Lane?s Lexicon is given to be ?a time appointed for the performance of some action?
Each crescent (waning and waxing) lasts for 4-5 days. If we do not count the days how are we going to be sure that it is the crescent of the tenth day after the full moon? The shape of the crescent from the 10th day after the full moon to the 14th day full moon is almost the same as described in 36.39.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
07/03/2008
08/01/2008 1
This is why you will often get 11 cycles only in a year.
This is why you will
always get 12 full moons in one year = 11 cycles.
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
I'll have to rethink this whole thing, especially why 8 hajj is used not years.
http://islamawakened.org/Quran/28/27/
Only for future reference...
New Moon Cycle
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
Solstices June 21 18:06
1 Jul 14 12:04
2 Aug 12 23:03
3 Sep 11 12:44
4 Oct 11 05:01
5 Nov 9 23:03
6 Dec 9 17:40
7 Jan 8 11:37
8 Feb 7 03:44
9 Mar 7 17:14
10 Apr 6 03:55
11 May 5 12:18
12 June 3 19:23 (short)
Solstices June 20 23:59 Universal Time (UT)
1 07/03/2008
2 08/01/2008
3 08/30/2008
4 09/29/2008
5 10/28/2008
6 11/27/2008
7 12/27/2008
8 01/26/2009
9 02/25/2009
10 03/26/2009
11 04/25/2009
12 05/24/2009
Solstice June 21 05:45
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.php
1 06/22/2009 19:35 UT
2 07/22/2009
3 08/20/2009
4 09/18/2009
5 10/18/2009
6 11/16/2009
7 12/16/2009
8 01/15/2010
9 02/14/2010
10 03/15/2010
11 04/14/2010
12 05/14/2010
00 06/12/2010 to Solstice June 21 11:28
1 07/11/2010
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?
No. It is mentioned via inclusion along with all the other phases.
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".
Classical Arabic dictionaries are a tool not Quran and may lead to wrong conclusions, like tracing the month August in English to mean ?a person? named Augustus.
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
Why is it always "others" whenever I ask this question? Is this what is meant by 2:185 "whoever OTHER than you witnesses"?
Ever think it has to do with the year 2009 not 1009 and we have calendars.
I do not use an abacus either while others still do?lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIiDomlEjJw
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
The one after the summer solstice will also freak you out and it will be during the hot time of the year. It is not about a minute or an hour. It is not about the theoretical full-moon which may not be even above the horizon. It is about witnessing the optical phenomenon of the scorching full-moon as it slowly rises during the night taking a low path accross the horizon.
That is the problem "will also" is not consistent, undistinguishable, actually confusing.
In addition, full moons "will also" occur during the day, as this year:
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
June 7 2:12 P.M.
July 7 5:22 A.M.
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
No. This actually destroys your argument. Had it been a continuous time then the god would have said 4 1/3 "shahr" instead of 4 shahr and 10 days.
What God would have said (according to you) is a disastrous statement. Stay with what God said in Quran.
QuoteMoreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2:189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (36:39). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2:234.
Impossible is this: if last full moon event occurs in daytime ? there is ?a break? in the wait until the next dawn event, woman is technically free to cheat due to loophole in time.
Using cycles, start whatever day/time, wait 4 shahr + 10 (why word day/s is not used in verse?)
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
You are then inventing your own meaning since this is not a meaning that is supported by Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Arabic dictionaries are not Quran, if so tell us the meaning of kalala in 4:12/4:176
12:20 And they bought him with a unjust price, numbered silver coins
100 silver dimes, 40 silver quarters, 10 silver dollars ? numbered is relative.
Waothkuroo Allaha fee ayyamin maAAdoodatin
2:203 And remember God in days numbered
waothkuroo Allaha katheeran laAAallakum tuflihoona
62:10
and remember God much perhaps you succeed/win.
You see, you cannot catch Quran in a contradiction using few/little.
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
Making up the days already covers it. Your understanding makes completing the term redundant.
See 18:54 and remember Leoxyz ? lol
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15275.msg146166#msg146166
The Reminder:
54:17 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
54:22 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
54:32 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
54:40 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
Quote from: ayman on February 27, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
The full moon illusion freaked you out so it is definitely a strong argument :)
Again, wrong full moon, it would also freak out people to start fasting on the wrong time like last year...
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
Peace
Peace Pseudo,
Quote from: Pseudo on February 27, 2009, 05:23:35 PMThis is why you will always get 12 full moons in one year = 11 cycles.
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
I'll have to rethink this whole thing, especially why 8 hajj is used not years.
http://islamawakened.org/Quran/28/27/
Only for future reference...
New Moon Cycle
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
Solstices June 21 18:06
1 Jul 14 12:04
2 Aug 12 23:03
3 Sep 11 12:44
4 Oct 11 05:01
5 Nov 9 23:03
6 Dec 9 17:40
7 Jan 8 11:37
8 Feb 7 03:44
9 Mar 7 17:14
10 Apr 6 03:55
11 May 5 12:18
12 June 3 19:23 (short)
Exactly 12 new moon EVENTS but only 11 CYCLES (i.e., you will be short when using cycles). Notice how when you count the event of the new moon as opposed to the cycle, it is impossible to get 11 and you will ALWAYS get 12 or 13 (out of which you count 12 as per 9:36) and this will automatically adjust the seasons. On the other hand, if you count cycles then most of the time you will only get 11 cycles in a year thereby violating 9:36. This is why we must count the EVENT and NOT the CYCLE. This is the ONLY way to use the moon. Now whether the event is the new moon or the full moon, this is another subject but at least you can now see that counting cycles is definitely wrong as one can see by actually trying to apply it to reality.
Quote from: Pseudo on February 27, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
Solstice June 21 05:45
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.php
1 06/22/2009 19:35 UT
2 07/22/2009
3 08/20/2009
4 09/18/2009
5 10/18/2009
6 11/16/2009
7 12/16/2009
8 01/15/2010
9 02/14/2010
10 03/15/2010
11 04/14/2010
12 05/14/2010
00 06/12/2010 to Solstice June 21 11:28
1 07/11/2010
Now you get it. Notice that by ALWAYS counting 12 events as opposed to the cycle, you are automatically and effortlessly adjusting the moon cycle with the seasons. You are doing this naturally and simply without having to resort to corrupt religious authorities to tell you when to intercalate (which was the main problem of the Jewish calendar).
Now the only remaining issue is whether it is the full moon or the new moon event that we are to count. I have already presented all the evidence for the full moon, including the indisputable fact that the word "shahr" itself means "full-moon". You also admitted that new moon is never specifically mentioned in the great reading but the cycle is mentioned (of which both new moon and full moon would be part). So I think that the evidence tilts very heavily towards full moon but I guess if you are still insisting on new moon that we will have to agree to disagree and leave it to the reader to decide.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Tlepsh on February 27, 2009, 01:36:38 PM
Peace Ayman,
In 2:234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?
According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.
يسمَّى القمر لليلتين من أَول الشهر هِلالاً ولليلتين من آخر الشهر ستٍّ وعشرين وسبعٍ وعشرين هِلالاً ويسمى ما بين ذلك قمراً
The information for hilal is given under the root word(هلل)
And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?
Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (اهل) says:
Hum ahlu ahlatin (هُمْ أَهْلُ أَهْلَةٍ) and (أَهِلَةٍ) means: They are people of the distinguished sort.
(أَهْلِيََّةٌ) Ahliyatun means: The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert: meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.
Does ahilla in 2:189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?
The root for
هلال hilaal is Haa Laam Laam
هلل not Alif Haa Laam . The initial alif is not original but is the alif of the plural. Also, the plural is
أهِلّة (Ahil-la) not
أهِلَة (Ahila).
Classical dictionaries are not consistent with this "two-day" theory. Some say three (al-Sahhah fil-lugha), others say up to seven (al-Muheet), so we can't take them as authority in this matter.
Peace Samia,
Quote from: Samia on February 28, 2009, 11:53:32 AMThe root for هلال hilaal is Haa Laam Laam هلل not Alif Haa Laam . The initial alif is not original but is the alif of the plural. Also, the plural is أهِلّة (Ahil-la) not أهِلَة (Ahila).
Classical dictionaries are not consistent with this "two-day" theory. Some say three (al-Sahhah fil-lugha), others say up to seven (al-Muheet), so we can't take them as authority in this matter.
Thank you for further clarifying this point.
Thanks,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
Tlepsh makes an interesting point in the following thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597952.0
It seems that the interim for widows would be fourteen full moons !!!!
Peace,brother Ayman..
I completed the reading of your article 10 times ! : )
It never occurred to anyone what the real meaning of the word "Shahr" means,and there`s nothing better-and beautiful- than a clear "monshaher" منشهر moon-a front door- to mark it!
Thank you for your genius and inspiring inputs.God bless.
I have a single question,
Is fighting restricted in the restricted months? according to 9:5 there`s a truce of some kind.
And If Ramadhan occurs at the first full moon after summer solstice,then that would mean that the four restricted months which fighting is restricted,are simultaneously June,July,August and September,"harr" times ,and that is a contradiction to 9:81 where "istinfar" was to be carried on in "harr",or did I get it wrong?
Peace sister Sa'adah,
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 05:49:48 PMI completed the reading of your article 10 times ! : )
It never occurred to anyone what the real meaning of the word "Shahr" means,and there`s nothing better-and beautiful- than a clear "monshaher" منشهر moon-a front door- to mark it!
Thank you for your genius and inspiring inputs.God bless.
All thanks is due to the god. It is only with his guidance that we can get closer to the truth.
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 05:49:48 PMI have a single question,
Is fighting restricted in the restricted months?
No, fighting is not restricted as per the clear answer in 2:217. The ONLY thing that is restricted is hunting.
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 05:49:48 PMaccording to 9:5 there`s a truce of some kind.
The truce has nothing to do with the god or the message as per 9:1.
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 05:49:48 PMAnd If Ramadhan occurs at the first full moon after summer solstice,then that would mean that the four restricted months which fighting is restricted,are simultaneously June,July,August and September,"harr" times ,and that is a contradiction to 9:81 where "istinfar" was to be carried on in "harr",or did I get it wrong?
There is no contradiction because fighting is allowed as it is always allowed in self defense. 9:81 taken with 9:86, which talks about a chapter descending, actually confirms that the great reading descended during a hot time of the year. If we read Chapter 9 then we can see that lots of things happened between 9:5 and 9:81 and the events described in 9:81 must have happened in the next year's restricted full moons.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,Ayman..
Thank you for the clarification,2:217 had lightened my chest!
But still I have difficulty understanding 9:5 ,and its relation to the restricted months.
Could you lend me some help? : )
Oh,I also searched for the red and orange moon,the moon is orange after the summer solstice,but it could be orange at many times of the year, but no one can argue that definition of "manazel" describes well a "descending" moon!it`s true that "descending" will take place only until the moon is a thinning crescent and then we`ll be ascending again to the next full one,but it`s a good marker to point which point shall be a start..
The moon of the summer solstice is at its lowest point,compared to the sun at its highest point,this IS a special phenomenon..
Thank you for this invitation to look around and ponder in God`s creation..
Peace,everyone..
"Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters."[9:2]
Who are addressed here.and why is it four months?
What is the relationship between the restricted months and fighting in this following verse:
"So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful."[9:5]
Peace,
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 08:44:23 PM
Peace,everyone..
"Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters."[9:2]
Who are addressed here.and why is it four months?
What is the relationship between the restricted months and fighting in this following verse:
"So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful."[9:5]
Peace,
My opinion:
The idolaters of Makkah are addressed here. They had started the war of religions by exiling the messenger of Islam (9:40) from his home in Makkah and kept it up by continuously attacking the Muslim State in Yathrib (33:13).
Why four months? They are the months of restrictions (ash'hurun hurum) mentioned in 9:36. Form the words "They will ask thee about fighting in the months of restrictions" in 2:217 I understand that the Arabs traditionally refrained form fighting in them.
I will continue to explain what I understand from 9:5 later, God willing, if what I am saying is making sense to the people in this forum.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on February 28, 2009, 12:43:06 AM
On the other hand, if you count cycles then most of the time you will only get 11 cycles in a year thereby violating 9:36. This is why we must count the EVENT and NOT the CYCLE. This is the ONLY way to use the moon.
9:36 That alshshuhoori count at God 12 in God's scripture, the day He created the skies/space and the earth.
Alright then let's start at the beginning of creation day 0:
fullmoon __days __Years1
___ 0 _______0 start assuming full moon lol
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
00__ 354.36708 skip full moon
365.242199 ___1 solstice Happy New Year!
1___ 383.89767 ramadan
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416
730.484398 ___2
1___ 738.26475 ramadan
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
00__ 1092.63183 skip full moon
1095.726597 ___3
1___ 1122.16242 ramadan
2___ 1151.69301
3___ 1181.2236
4___ 1210.75419
5___ 1240.28478
6___ 1269.81537
7___ 1299.34596
8___ 1328.87655
9___ 1358.40714
10__ 1387.93773
11__ 1417.46832
12__ 1446.99891
1460.968796 ___4
1___ 1476.5295 ramadan
2___ 1506.06009
3___ 1535.59068
4___ 1565.12127
5___ 1594.65186
6___ 1624.18245
7___ 1653.71304
8___ 1683.24363
9___ 1712.77422
10__ 1742.30481
11__ 1771.8354
12__ 1801.36599
1826.210995 ___5
1___ 1830.89658 ramadan
2___ 1860.42717
3___ 1889.95776
4___ 1919.48835
5___ 1949.01894
6___ 1978.54953
7___ 2008.08012
8___ 2037.61071
9___ 2067.1413
10__ 2096.67189
11__ 2126.20248
12__ 2155.73307
00__ 2185.26366 skip full moon
2191.453194 ___6
1___ 2214.79425 ramadan
2___ 2244.32484
3___ 2273.85543
4___ 2303.38602
5___ 2332.91661
6___ 2362.4472
7___ 2391.97779
8___ 2421.50838
9___ 2451.03897
10__ 2480.56956
11__ 2510.10015
12__ 2539.63074
2556.695393 ___7
1___ 2569.16133 ramadan
2___ 2598.69192
3___ 2628.22251
4___ 2657.7531
5___ 2687.28369
6___ 2716.81428
7___ 2746.34487
8___ 2775.87546
9___ 2805.40605
10__ 2834.93664
11__ 2864.46723
12__ 2893.99782
2921.937592 ___8
1___ 2923.52841 ramadan
2___ 2953.059
3___ 2982.58959
4___ 3012.12018
5___ 3041.65077
6___ 3071.18136
7___ 3100.71195
8___ 3130.24254
9___ 3159.77313
10__ 3189.30372
11__ 3218.83431
12__ 3248.3649
00__ 3277.89549 skip full moon
3287.179791 ___9
1___ 3307.42608 ramadan
2___ 3336.95667
3___ 3366.48726
4___ 3396.01785
5___ 3425.54844
6___ 3455.07903
7___ 3484.60962
8___ 3514.14021
9___ 3543.6708
10__ 3573.20139
11__ 3602.73198
12__ 3632.26257
3652.42199 ___10
1___ 3661.79316 ramadan
2___ 3691.32375
3___ 3720.85434
4___ 3750.38493
5___ 3779.91552
6___ 3809.44611
7___ 3838.9767
8___ 3868.50729
9___ 3898.03788
10__ 3927.56847
11__ 3957.09906
12__ 3986.62965
00__ 4016.16024 skip full moon 1 day before solstice, huge illusion
4017.664189 ___11
Something is missing, probably obvious, and skipping full moons or calling it no name doesn't seem right.
Also puzzling is also why 8 hijajin is used and not years???
28:27 He said: "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for)
eight hijajin, so
if you completed ten, so (it) is from at you, and I do not want that I make hardship/difficulty on you, you will find me, if God willed/wanted from the correct/righteous."
Does hajj have to be every year? Does it say 12 shahr in a solar year?
This full moon business, blind not fasting, missing the moon illusion or full moon altogether, skipping 5 in the first 11 years, different wait times for same offense etc., too many issues.
Peace
Quote from: Pseudo on March 02, 2009, 03:19:55 AM
Peace Ayman,
Also puzzling is also why 8 hijajin is used and not years???
28:27 He said: "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for) eight hijajin, so if you completed ten, so (it) is from at you, and I do not want that I make hardship/difficulty on you, you will find me, if God willed/wanted from the correct/righteous."
Does hajj have to be every year? Does it say 12 shahr in a solar year?
Peace
Peace All,
(ثَمَانِيَ حِجَجٍ) Eight hijaj
Does (ثَمَانِيَ حِجَجٍ) means eight yearly festivals/gatherings or overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences eight times? Does God mentions yearly festivals/gatherings in his book?
If it was eight years why not mentioned to be ?tamani seenin? or ?tamaniata a3wam?
Peace Tlepsh,
Quote from: Tlepsh on March 02, 2009, 07:50:00 AM(ثَمَانِيَ حِجَجٍ) Eight hijaj
Does (ثَمَانِيَ حِجَجٍ) means eight yearly festivals/gatherings or overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences eight times? Does God mentions yearly festivals/gatherings in his book?
If it was eight years why not mentioned to be ?tamani seenin? or ?tamaniata a3wam?
I agree that it wasn't 8 years. It was 8 feasts. These could at the soonest happen over 2 years (4 feasts per year). Since Moses was hired to be a helper and water and tend for sheep and not hired as somekind of a lawyer then this actually confirms the meaning of "hajj" as feast and not as anything having to do with "overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Sa'adah,
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 07:41:50 PMBut still I have difficulty understanding 9:5 ,and its relation to the restricted months.
I think that reading from 9:1-5, it seems that there was a treaty to not fight during the restriction period. This treaty had nothing to do with the god who didn't prohibit fighting at any special time according to 2:217. So the treaty expired when the restriction period expired and that's when fighting could resume. The fighting and many events happened until the restriction period came around again in 9:81-86.
Quote from: sa`adah on February 28, 2009, 07:41:50 PMOh,I also searched for the red and orange moon,the moon is orange after the summer solstice,but it could be orange at many times of the year, but no one can argue that definition of "manazel" describes well a "descending" moon!it`s true that "descending" will take place only until the moon is a thinning crescent and then we`ll be ascending again to the next full one,but it`s a good marker to point which point shall be a start..
The moon of the summer solstice is at its lowest point,compared to the sun at its highest point,this IS a special phenomenon..
Thank you for this invitation to look around and ponder in God`s creation..
Exactly, it is because the full-moon arouns the solstice is at its lowest point and takes the lowest path accross the horizon that it appears more vivid red and stays red longer than any other full-moon. The full-moon right after the solstice in addition to the red color also has the association with heat so it fits best the meaning of "ramadhan".
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on March 02, 2009, 11:48:54 PM
Peace Tlepsh,
I agree that it wasn't 8 years. It was 8 feasts. These could at the soonest happen over 2 years (4 feasts per year). Since Moses was hired to be a helper and water and tend for sheep and not hired as somekind of a lawyer then this actually confirms the meaning of "hajj" as feast and not as anything having to do with "overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
?3id? (عِيد) or (عِوْد) An occurrence that befalls, or betides one, or that happens to one; a festival, a periodical festival; a feast day (مَوْسِم) so called because it returns every year with renewed joy or from (عَاد) because people return to it.; or from (عَادَة) ?a custom? because they are accustomed to it.
The word ?3id? is used in Quran in 5.114. to mean feast.
On the other hand almost all over the quran ?hajj? and its derivatives are used to mean ?argue and dispute?
Then why not mentioned to be ?eight a3yad?
Peace Tlepsh,
Quote from: Tlepsh on March 03, 2009, 03:43:56 AM?3id? (عِيد) or (عِوْد) An occurrence that befalls, or betides one, or that happens to one; a festival, a periodical festival; a feast day (مَوْسِم) so called because it returns every year with renewed joy or from (عَاد) because people return to it.; or from (عَادَة) ?a custom? because they are accustomed to it.
The word ?3id? is used in Quran in 5.114. to mean feast.
On the other hand almost all over the quran ?hajj? and its derivatives are used to mean ?argue and dispute?
Then why not mentioned to be ?eight a3yad?
Not long ago, I used to think that "hajj" means "debate" too. However, in reality when we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 22:28 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock. We are told to eat from it and feed the poor. In fact, if we carefully read the whole passage from 22:27-37, we can realize that 90% of it is about the livestock. So this is about eating and feeding others the livestock's meat. What do we call that? This is a feast.
Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. On the other hand, none of the people of the book came from all over to "overcome of one another person in argument by evidences" and certainly Moses wasn't hired to so this but he was hired to water and tend sheep!
Unless you want to suggest that "hajj" is an entirely new concept that didn't start with Abraham then please see how the people of the book understood it:
From: http://www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact
Haggai => feast
Haggiah => the Lord's feast
Haggith => rejoicing
See also:
http://books.google.com/books?q=hebrew+hagg+feast&btnG=Search+Books
So the concept of "hagg"/"feast" is a mundane common concept that was well known to the people of the book. The word "3eed" doesn't mean a feast with FREE FOOD. It means a celebration. So the difference is the emphasis on FREE FOOD.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on March 03, 2009, 03:58:31 PMNot long ago, I used to think that "hajj" means "debate" too. However, in reality when we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 22:28 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock.
So people owe it to the god (3:97) to come from the farthest locations (22:27) just to get together to eat meat and thank the god for the meat? Kind of extravagant and pointless if you can ask me because you can eat meat at home and still thank the god for the meat. I think understanding
hajj as a symposium makes more sense.
peace all,
I have split the discussion on meaning of "hajj" into another thread in the appropriate section:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
Peace all,
This seems to be another way to describe the scorching full-moon:
84:16. So I swear but by the red glow (due to light refraction).
84:17. AND the night and what it drives on.
84:18. AND the moon when it looks symmetric.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Great work !
Just a few questions :
1: When was the first dictionary of classical Arabic written ?
2:What is the proof that the meaning which we are getting from them are the same as these were in pre-Quranic era ?
3:What were the names of the months in the Pre -Quranic era what is the proof of their names or the Arabs were without days and months?
4:How will you translate some english phrases into Arabic
a: Present month
b:Last month
I will appreciate if you spare some time to elaborate all these confusing points.
Peace Q_student,
Thank you for your kind comments and questions. Many people contributed to this work through out the discussion and we wouldn?t have improved our understanding if it wasn?t for the god?s guidance.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 05:10:25 AM1: When was the first dictionary of classical Arabic written ?
The first Classical Arabic dictionary is Lisan Al-3arab written by Ibn Al-Manzoor (1233-1311CE) who relied on Abu Mansur Al-Azhari (895-980CE).
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 05:10:25 AM2:What is the proof that the meaning which we are getting from them are the same as these were in pre-Quranic era ?
There is no proof. In fact, quite the opposite, there is plenty of proof that Classical Arabic dictionaries are full of errors and misclassifications. This is why, like any tool, one needs to understand their limitations and biases and use them intelligently and not blindly. One way to use them is to figure out the etymology, which indicates the older meaning that the other meanings were derived from.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 05:10:25 AM
3:What were the names of the months in the Pre -Quranic era what is the proof of their names or the Arabs were without days and months?
Calendars serve a function in society. In pre-Islamic times, the Arabs didn?t have their own calendar but used a variety of calendars depending on their needs. For example, for the nomads the purpose for using a calendar was to know the seasons, which dictate their movements in the wilderness to find grazing areas for their livestock. Therefore, their year was divided into 6 months: Jamad Al-Awwal, Jamad Al-Thanni, Rabi Al-Awwal, Sayf, Qayz, Rabi Al-Thanni, Kharif. Please note that Rabi Al-Awwal (first grazing) occurred in early spring and Rabi Al-Thanni (second grazing) occurred in fall.
We actually have a lot of evidence about the names of the months that were used in Arabia. This is due to the fact that there are many inscriptions where the author mentions the date. However, there is no evidence of the so-called Islamic calendar. This indicates that the new Islamic calendar is an invention of the post-Quranic Islamic empire. Even traditions readily admit that the calendar was invented at the time of Umar I and so at the time of the prophet certainly a different calendar was used.
Note that some of the names of the Umar I months were taken from the calendar of the nomads and some appear to relate the Jewish calendar, for example Safar is related etymologically to Shofar or the blowing of the trumpet during the holidays in the Jewish month of Tishrei and Dhu al-Hijjah is related to the timing of the Jewish feast/?hagg?.
The inscriptions in Southern and Central Arabia show that the Arabs there used the Sabaean calendar, where the year began in April. Here are the names of the months in that calendar:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/29fxpqv.jpg)
In northern Arabia, the city dwellers used calendars that allowed them to do business and organize their affairs. Cities that did business with the Romans used the calendar of the Romans and those that did business with the Persians used the calendar of the Persians, and the cities with large Jewish populations used the Jewish calendar.
Some Arabs followed the Byzantines in beginning the year in September, while the Arab Nestorians followed the Macedonian custom of beginning the year in October. Moreover, instead of borrowing the Latin names, the Arab Nestorian communities retained most of the month-names of the ancient Babylonian luni-solar calendar (also used, with some modification, as the religious calendar of the Jews), but they redefined these to make each one correspond to a Julian month. (See Encl. of Islam II, Tarikh)
The Arabs also used the calendar of the Persians and this continued into the Islamic era. The Persian calendar is functionally identical with that of the ancient Egyptians. It had a vague year of 365 days, divided between 12 months of 30 days each plus five extra days known as the five ?stolen? days.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 05:10:25 AM4:How will you translate some english phrases into Arabic
a: Present month
b: Last month
There is no word for "month" in the great reading. The great reading is not concerned with manmade calendars but with universal cosmic phenomena that are independent of culture and calendars. Pre-quranic inscriptions often use the words "warkh" or "yarkh" (which doesn?t occur in the great reading) to mean "month". For example, see "yarkh" used in the inscription below:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Please note above the month name Tammuz.
Also, see "warkh" used in the inscription below:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/EPIGRAPHY/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
So ?present month? in pre-Islamic times would have been translated as ?h-al yarkh? and ?last month? would have been translated as something like ?al-yarkh al-mady?.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 05:10:25 AMI will appreciate if you spare some time to elaborate all these confusing points.
One additional point to elaborate on is the meaning of the word ?nasi?a? in 9:37. As I mentioned in the first post on this thread there is no agreement on what the word ?nasi?a? in 9:37 means. A pre-Islamic South Arabian inscription from Haram (CIH 547) provides a clue for what this word could mean. Here the authors offer their excuses to their idol for that they had not performed a certain ritual in the required month, when war had forced them to flee their country, but ?postponed? (?nas?w?) it until another month. As a result of this impiety, their idol withheld the waters during the winter and summer growing seasons, whereupon the authors promised not to repeat their transgression in future (See Encl. of Islam II, Tarikh). It is quite clear from the context in the Haram inscription, that at least the verb nasa? has nothing to do with intercalation as is traditionally thought, but with the moving of a practice within the year itself. So the present so-called Islamic calendar has absolutely no basis.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam
First of all thanks a lot for your precious time
QuoteThe first Classical Arabic dictionary is Lisan Al-3arab written by Ibn Al-Manzoor (1233-1311CE) who relied on Abu Mansur Al-Azhari (895-980CE).
Sorry to say your information is not correct.Ibne Manzoor was in 8th Centrury (A.أH) i.e 716 AH
While first dictionary which was compiled was "Kitaabul Ain" by Khalil who died in 169 AH
After it many dictionaries were written in different centuries which include :
In the 3rd Century we had
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Akhfash
Gharibul musannaf by Abu Ubaid
Kitaabul Adhdad by Abu al Hatim Sahl
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Mubarrid
Alkaamil fil Lugha by Al Mubarrrid
Sooooooooooooooooo many other in different centuries before lisaan ul Arab ,like Jamharatul lugha by Ibne Duraid
Miqyaasul Lugha, Al lughatul Mojam ,Al saahibi by Ibne Faaris
Sihaah Fil Lugha by Al jauhari
Al mohkam wal Muheet
This is a very small list which was written before Lisaan ul Arab
QuoteThere is no proof. In fact, quite the opposite, there is plenty of proof that Classical Arabic dictionaries are full of errors and misclassifications. This is why, like any tool, one needs to understand their limitations and biases and use them intelligently and not blindly. One way to use them is to figure out the etymology, which indicates the older meaning that the other meanings were derived from.
When these are all unreliable sources why do you refer to them off and on ?
QuoteWe actually have a lot of evidence about the names of the months that were used in Arabia. This is due to the fact that there are many inscriptions where the author mentions the date. However, there is no evidence of the so-called Islamic calendar. This indicates that the new Islamic calendar is an invention of the post-Quranic Islamic empire. Even traditions readily admit that the calendar was invented at the time of Umar I and so at the time of the prophet certainly a different calendar was used.
Inscriptions are as UNREILIABLE AS HADITH STUFF.
If the Arabs did not know how to write then where these incriptions came from. I do not know the reason for using "extra - Quranic sources " for the Quran which is complete and "mufassal"
Sunnies use Hadith as extra Quranic sources
Quran alone use Dictionaries as extra Quranic source
Submitters use code 19 as extra Quranic source
You use use inscriptions as extra Quranic sources
If at all you want to prove something prove it from the Quran not from
-Hadith
-Code 19
-Dictionaries(according to you)
-Incriptions
because all this stuff is equally unreliable and fabricated.
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMFirst of all thanks a lot for your precious time
You are welcome :)
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMSorry to say your information is not correct.Ibne Manzoor was in 8th Centrury (A.أH) i.e 716 AH
Yes. 8th century AH / 13th-14th century CE.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMWhile first dictionary which was compiled was "Kitaabul Ain" by Khalil who died in 169 AH
After it many dictionaries were written in different centuries which include :
In the 3rd Century we had
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Akhfash
Gharibul musannaf by Abu Ubaid
Kitaabul Adhdad by Abu al Hatim Sahl
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Mubarrid
Alkaamil fil Lugha by Al Mubarrrid
Sooooooooooooooooo many other in different centuries before lisaan ul Arab ,like Jamharatul lugha by Ibne Duraid
Miqyaasul Lugha, Al lughatul Mojam ,Al saahibi by Ibne Faaris
Sihaah Fil Lugha by Al jauhari
Al mohkam wal Muheet
This is a very small list which was written before Lisaan ul Arab
Are all those works extant?
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMWhen these are all unreliable sources why do you refer to them off and on ?
It is OK to refer to unrelibale sources if one takes into account the specific unreliability and doesn't use them uncritically and understands their limitations.
For example, Hadiths are unreliable as far as telling us anything about the prophet or the time of the prophet. On the other hand, they are a reliable source for giving us an indication for the types of debates going on during the late Abbasid era when they were compiled. For example, the Hadiths saying "only write from me the Quran" indicate that there were debates during the Abbassid era against writing Hadiths so someone made up this Hadith to support their view. Etc.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMInscriptions are as UNREILIABLE AS HADITH STUFF.
As I pointed out above, it all depends on knowing their limitations and knowing how to use them.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMIf the Arabs did not know how to write then where these incriptions came from.
In pre-Islamic times, there is nothing to know about writing Arabic because Arabic was an oral vernacular that was rarely written and it didn't even have a script. Thus, when the great reading was written, the foreign Nabataean Aramaic script was used to write it. This doesn't mean that the Arabs didn't write. They wrote but not in Arabic and only on rare occasions they wrote Arabic and in those rare cases they used foreign scripts to write it.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMI do not know the reason for using "extra - Quranic sources " for the Quran which is complete and "mufassal"
Whether we like it or not we all use ?extra-Quranic sources?. You just used a computer to type this and you used English, which is not a language mentioned in the great reading. As I said, it comes down to knowing the limitations of the various other sources. What I also found out is that the sources that are truthful have never contradicted the great reading.
Quote from: Q_student on April 22, 2009, 06:37:02 PMSunnies use Hadith as extra Quranic sources
Quran alone use Dictionaries as extra Quranic source
Submitters use code 19 as extra Quranic source
You use inscriptions as extra Quranic sources
If at all you want to prove something prove it from the Quran not from
-Hadith
-Code 19
-Dictionaries(according to you)
-Incriptions
because all this stuff is equally unreliable and fabricated.
How can inscriptions that can be scientifically dated to pre-Islamic times ?fabricated?? Why would pre-Islamic people fabricate something about a future that they were completely unaware of? Also, all the things that I found from pre-Islamic inscriptions contradict Hadiths and Islamic history but are in line with the great reading. In fact, in the great reading itself we are told several times to examine the traces left by those who came before us (for example, see 30:9).
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman
QuoteIt is OK to refer to unrelibale sources if one takes into account the specific unreliability and doesn't use them uncritically and understands their limitations.
This statement is another version of code 19.
The common factor is how to get the desired interpretation.
Referring to unreliable sources and then picking up something desired naming it as critically accepted is major catch to intrepret the Quran according to one's own desires.
Try to change your desires according to Quran. Please do not try to change its interepretation t according to your own desires.
Before we were confronted with Hadith Myth and Code 19 and now there is "Inscritption myth".
Regards
Peace everyone,
For those who believe that the signs/ayaat of The God are in the great reading only, should ponder on the following sign from the great reading itself that says otherwise:
41:53 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
To arrive at the truth, one can ponder on any of the signs of The God, whether they are in the great reading or outside it in the horizons and within ourselves and are thereby "extra-quranic". Those who limit themselves to the signs of The God in the great reading only are violating and contradicting the words of The God Himself.
Peace Ayman, all,
Please could you provide a list of all the verses that are relevant to this topic. That is, not only the ones you referred to in your article at the beginning of the thread, but also any others you or anyone else contributed to the discussion later on (e.g. pregnancy/weaning, about cycles and time, etc. etc.). Chapter and verse numbers will be fine. Thanks.
A question - I can't remember the exact phrase you used, but you mentioned something about "completing the term" that is mentioned in 2:185 and you said that it was related to the "10 (nights?)" in 7:142. But isn't the phrase used in 2:185 different to the one in 7:142? Also, how do you know that "completing the term" is referring to the 10 nights, and not the 30 + 10 = 40 nights? Both 7:142 and 2:51 mention 40 nights. Or is it to do with 2:189? This verse doesn't mention siyaam.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on this forum who will take tomorrow's full moon, instead of the one after the summer solstice, as shahr ramadaan? Tomorrow's one is closest to the solstice and should therefore be bigger and redder than the following one.
Peace Nwryn,
Quote from: nwryn on June 06, 2009, 09:56:03 AMPlease could you provide a list of all the verses that are relevant to this topic. That is, not only the ones you referred to in your article at the beginning of the thread, but also any others you or anyone else contributed to the discussion later on (e.g. pregnancy/weaning, about cycles and time, etc. etc.). Chapter and verse numbers will be fine. Thanks.
I don't have a ready list. The way I would provide the list is basically by going through the article and subsequent posts and noting every passage that was referenced by me or others. You can just as efficiently do the same thing.
Quote from: nwryn on June 06, 2009, 09:56:03 AMA question - I can't remember the exact phrase you used, but you mentioned something about "completing the term" that is mentioned in 2:185 and you said that it was related to the "10 (nights?)" in 7:142. But isn't the phrase used in 2:185 different to the one in 7:142? Also, how do you know that "completing the term" is referring to the 10 nights, and not the 30 + 10 = 40 nights? Both 7:142 and 2:51 mention 40 nights. Or is it to do with 2:189? This verse doesn't mention siyaam.
The word "ma3doodat" used in 2:185 means "few", in other words a number from 3 to 10. Logically, if I tell you that you need to complete the count of "3 to 10" then this means that you need to count until 10. 2:196 which refers to "a complete 10" confirms this.
I agree that 7:142 uses different wording but the idea of 10 nights being used to complete a period is clearly used. Similaraly, 28:27 talks about making a complete 10 (years). So all this further confirms what we already know logically above.
Also, from the great reading, we can see that the Arabs clearly used a base-10 system.
Quote from: nwryn on June 06, 2009, 09:56:03 AMJust out of curiosity, is there anyone on this forum who will take tomorrow's full moon, instead of the one after the summer solstice, as shahr ramadaan? Tomorrow's one is closest to the solstice and should therefore be bigger and redder than the following one.
The word "ramadhan" has two connotations, hot and red. Only the full-moon after the solstice fits those two connotations since it occurs during the hottest time of the year and is also red.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 09, 2009, 04:50:47 PM
Peace Nwryn,
I don't have a ready list. The way I would provide the list is basically by going through the article and subsequent posts and noting every passage that was referenced by me or others. You can just as efficiently do the same thing.
The word "ma3doodat" used in 2:185 means "few", in other words a number from 3 to 10. Logically, if I tell you that you need to complete the count of "3 to 10" then this means that you need to count until 10. 2:196 which refers to "a complete 10" confirms this.
I agree that 7:142 uses different wording but the idea of 10 nights being used to complete a period is clearly used. Similaraly, 28:27 talks about making a complete 10 (years). So all this further confirms what we already know logically above.
Also, from the great reading, we can see that the Arabs clearly used a base-10 system.
The word "ramadhan" has two connotations, hot and red. Only the full-moon after the solstice fits those two connotations since it occurs during the hottest time of the year and is also red.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
The word "Ramada" means extremely hot only ,no sense of redness in it.
Secondly the "Ramadhan" is used in the Quran as a "Proper Noun" because it is being used as a "diptote". It cannot be translated as Sunday ,Monday etc cannot be translated.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 05:19:59 PM
Peace
The word "Ramada" means extremely hot only ,no sense of redness in it.
Secondly the "Ramadhan" is used in the Quran as a "Proper Noun" because it is being used as a "diptote". It cannot be translated as Sunday ,Monday etc cannot be translated.
Regards
I agree with you that it is Ramadan as in the ninth month of the lunar calendar.
Here are the meanings:
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
You're right - no redness involved.
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 05:19:59 PMThe word "Ramada" means extremely hot only ,no sense of redness in it.
This was already discussed and the fact that the usage and examples given in the dictionary in relation to the rubbing of the thigh and the redness of the eyes confirm that the connotation of red color is present and as you admitted, the first thing that happens is that the eyes become red.
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 05:19:59 PMSecondly the "Ramadhan" is used in the Quran as a "Proper Noun" because it is being used as a "diptote". It cannot be translated as Sunday ,Monday etc cannot be translated.
Proper names are not "diptote" and the vocalization marks are manmade lies that are not part of the original text of the great reading. For example, Thamud is not diptote. It is diptote one time and "triptote" another. The inconsistencies occur in the accusative because the vocalizers couldn't delete the Alif but could insert their false vocalization marks.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 09, 2009, 05:40:32 PM
Peace Q_student,
This was already discussed and the fact that the usage and examples given in the dictionary in relation to the rubbing of the thigh and the redness of the eyes confirm that the connotation of red color is present and as you admitted, the first thing that happens is that the eyes become red.
Proper names are not "diptote" and the vocalization marks are manmade lies that are not part of the original text of the great reading. For example, Thamud is not diptote. It is diptote one time and "triptote" another. The inconsistencies occur in the accusative because the vocalizers couldn't delete the Alif but could insert their false vocalization marks.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Would you please copy paste the verse in which it is (thamud) used as "triptote" ?
Regards
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 05:46:13 PMWould you please copy paste the verse in which it is (thamud) used as "triptote" ?
Better yet, here are scanned images directly from the Quran:
11:68
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE229.GIF)
25:38
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE363.GIF)
29:38
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE399.GIF)
53:51
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE527.GIF)
Please note that Thamud has a final Alif as "Thamudaa" in all those passages. In fact, in 11:68 it is spelled both with a final Alif and without in the same verse. Notice that all those inconsistencies appear in the accusative because vocalizers couldn't delete the final Alif from the text but could freely adjust their invented vocalization marks. Unfortunately, just like 19ers, some so-called Islamic web sites have taken it upon themselves to delete the Alif and correct the god's words:
http://www.al-islam.org/quran/process.asp?tArabic=on&Sura=11&SavedSura=1&fAya=68&tAya=68&searchText=&arabicdisplay=windows
So it is better if you look at an actual scanned copy.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 09, 2009, 07:26:41 PM
Peace Q_student,
Better yet, here are scanned images directly from the Quran:
11:68
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE229.GIF)
25:38
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE363.GIF)
29:38
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE399.GIF)
53:51
(http://www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE527.GIF)
Please note that Thamud has a final Alif as "Thamudaa" in all those passages. In fact, in 11:68 it is spelled both with a final Alif and without in the same verse. Notice that all those inconsistencies appear in the accusative because vocalizers couldn't delete the final Alif from the text but could freely adjust their invented vocalization marks. Unfortunately, just like 19ers, some so-called Islamic web sites have taken it upon themselves to delete the Alif and correct the god's words:
http://www.al-islam.org/quran/process.asp?tArabic=on&Sura=11&SavedSura=1&fAya=68&tAya=68&searchText=&arabicdisplay=windows
So it is better if you look at an actual scanned copy.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
These are your quoted verses :
وَأَخَذَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا الصَّيْحَةُ فَأَصْبَحُوا فِي دِيَارِهِمْ جَاثِمِينَ (67) كَأَنْ لَمْ يَغْنَوْا فِيهَا أَلَا إِنَّ ثَمُودَ كَفَرُوا رَبَّهُمْ أَلَا بُعْدًا لِثَمُودَ [هود/67، 68]
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَأَصْحَابَ الرَّسِّ وَقُرُونًا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ كَثِيرًا [الفرقان/38]
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَقَدْ تَبَيَّنَ لَكُمْ مِنْ مَسَاكِنِهِمْ وَزَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ فَصَدَّهُمْ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَكَانُوا مُسْتَبْصِرِينَ [العنكبوت/38]
وَثَمُودَ فَمَا أَبْقَى [النجم/51]
These examples of yours show that you do not know even what diptote and triptote is .
In all of these verses it is used as "Diptote"
May ask you what are diptote and triptotes ?
I was not expecting such type of ignorance from a person who belongs to an Arabi speaking country (If I am not wrong).Is Arabic not taught over there ?
Regards
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 07:54:52 PMThese are your quoted verses :
وَأَخَذَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا الصَّيْحَةُ فَأَصْبَحُوا فِي دِيَارِهِمْ جَاثِمِينَ (67) كَأَنْ لَمْ يَغْنَوْا فِيهَا أَلَا إِنَّ ثَمُودَ كَفَرُوا رَبَّهُمْ أَلَا بُعْدًا لِثَمُودَ [هود/67، 68]
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَأَصْحَابَ الرَّسِّ وَقُرُونًا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ كَثِيرًا [الفرقان/38]
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَقَدْ تَبَيَّنَ لَكُمْ مِنْ مَسَاكِنِهِمْ وَزَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ فَصَدَّهُمْ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَكَانُوا مُسْتَبْصِرِينَ [العنكبوت/38]
وَثَمُودَ فَمَا أَبْقَى [النجم/51]
These examples of yours show that you do not know even what diptote and triptote is .
In all of these verses it is used as "Diptote"
May ask you what are diptote and triptotes ?
I was not expecting such type of ignorance from a person who belongs to an Arabi speaking country (If I am not wrong).Is Arabic not taught over there ?
Can't you read? If you can then why are you playing stupid? You and whoever you copied from is a liar who deleted the Alif from ثمودا . See the scanned pages that I provided and tell me, do you see an Alif? YES or NO. There is no third choice so don't keep lying.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 09, 2009, 10:32:51 PM
Peace Q_student,
Can't you read? If you can then why are you playing stupid? You and whoever you copied from is a liar who deleted the Alif from ثمودا . See the scanned pages that I provided and tell me, do you see an Alif? YES or NO. There is no third choice so don't keep lying.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
I have asked you what are diptotes and triptotes. Give me their definitions and their signs to recognize them with EVIDENCE. Do not talk like illiterate persons.I am 100% sure that you do not know about diptotes and triptotes.Define them with evidence.Presence or absence of alif is never a Sign of Diptote.It shows your ignorance.
Regards
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 11:37:02 PMI have asked you what are diptotes and triptotes. Give me their definitions and their signs to recognize them with EVIDENCE. Do not talk like illiterate persons.I am 100% sure that you do not know about diptotes and triptotes.Define them with evidence.Presence or absence of alif is never a Sign of Diptote.It shows your ignorance.
I asked you a simple YES or NO question. Just answer instead of spewing out your usual crap.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 10, 2009, 12:05:29 AM
Peace Q_student,
I asked you a simple YES or NO question. Just answer instead of spewing out your usual crap.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
These are not signs of diptote or triptote. Please give me the definition of Diptotes and Triptote and what are signs used to recognize "DIPTOTE", then you will see what blunders you are comitting. Please also provide Evidence for the signs of DIPTOTES.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on June 10, 2009, 12:30:33 AMThese are not signs of diptote or triptote. Please give me the definition of Diptotes and Triptote and what are signs used to recognize "DIPTOTE", then you will see what blunders you are comitting. Please also provide Evidence for the signs of DIPTOTES.
No matter what you think, do you admit that there is an Alif in Thamudaa in the passages that I quoted? YES or NO.
Speak the truth and don't be a coward and a liar.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 10, 2009, 12:43:30 AM
No matter what you think, do you admit that there is an Alif in Thamudaa in the passages that I quoted? YES or NO.
Speak the truth and don't be a coward and a liar.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
This is what I am telling you .Alif has nothing to do with being diptote or triptote. If you thing that it is sign regarding this two terms.Bring up Evidence from any Grammar book.Ohther your persistance avoidence of definition of DIPTOTE or TRIPTOTE with evidence indicates that you do not know about them.It is exactly as you could not pull out the roots of the verb "tashakkat".
Secondly, what this have to do with "Ramadhan" which is diptote.It is a Proper Noun
For reference see Lane's Lexicon.
I am still waiting for evidence.
Regards
Regards
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on June 10, 2009, 01:32:09 AMThis is what I am telling you .Alif has nothing to do with being diptote or triptote. If you thing that it is sign regarding this two terms.Bring up Evidence from any Grammar book.Ohther your persistance avoidence of definition of DIPTOTE or TRIPTOTE with evidence indicates that you do not know about them.It is exactly as you could not pull out the roots of the verb "tashakkat".
Secondly, what this have to do with "Ramadhan" which is diptote.It is a Proper Noun
For reference see Lane's Lexicon.
Listen, just like the 19ers who change letters in the great reading you lied and and copied and pasted those passages with deleted Alifs. This is why you don't want to answer the simple YES or NO question that I asked you about if there is an Alif or not. If it is so simple and you are such a knowledgeable person then why are you afraid to answer a simple question? It is because you know that there is an Alif رغم أنفك and you wish there wasn't.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 10, 2009, 02:03:15 AM
Peace Q_student,
Listen, just like the 19ers who change letters in the great reading you lied and and copied and pasted those passages with deleted Alifs. This is why you don't want to answer the simple YES or NO question that I asked you about if there is an Alif or not. If it is so simple and you are such a knowledgeable person then why are you afraid to answer a simple question? It is because you know that there is an Alif رغم أنفك and you wish there wasn't.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear
Why are you trying to detrack the thread. You derailed it from "Ramadhan " to " Thamud".I am asking you what alif has to do with diptote and triptote recognition.Give me evidence.
Secondly ,what it has to with Ramadhan word which is a name of the month and Proper noun as we use January ,February etc.Do we translate them.
Please provide the evidence for
1:Alif as a sign of Diptote or Triptote.
2:Difine Diptote or Triptote so that I should know that you understand the meanings of this term.
If you go on avoiding which you usually do,then what impression the readers will take.
Regards
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on June 10, 2009, 02:19:06 AMWhy are you trying to detrack the thread. You derailed it from "Ramadhan " to " Thamud".I am asking you what alif has to do with diptote and triptote recognition.Give me evidence.
Secondly ,what it has to with Ramadhan word which is a name of the month and Proper noun as we use January ,February etc.Do we translate them.
Please provide the evidence for
1:Alif as a sign of Diptote or Triptote.
2:Difine Diptote or Triptote so that I should know that you understand the meanings of this term.
If you go on avoiding which you usually do,then what impression the readers will take.
The Alif is very much the subject of this thread because it exposes your lies. It exposes that the Diptote and Triptote dichatomy and therefore the vocalization marks are false to begin with. So you can't make a circular argument based on false vocalization marks to say that any word such as "ramadhan", Thamud, etc. is a proper name or not. This is why you are afraid to answer the simple question about the Alif. Here is how you lied and wrote, for example, 25:38 and deleted the final Alif of Thamudaa (copied and pasted from your post):
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَأَصْحَابَ الرَّسِّ وَقُرُونًا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ كَثِيرًا
Everyone can open their copy of the great reading at home and verify that it is in reality spelled as follows with a final Alif:
وعادا وثمودا واصحاب الرس وقرونا بين ذلك كثيرا
If the Alif is so inconsequential then why did you lie about it and then refused to answer the simple question? I gave you the opportunity to answer the simple question about the Alif and humbly correct your mistake but you refused. So unfortunately the only impression the intelligent reader will take is that you are a stubborn liar, not only to them but also to the god since you deliberately distorted his signs.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 10, 2009, 02:46:04 AM
Peace Q_student,
The Alif is very much the subject of this thread because it exposes your lies. It exposes that the Diptote and Triptote dichatomy and therefore the vocalization marks are false to begin with. So you can't make a circular argument based on false vocalization marks to say that any word such as "ramadhan", Thamud, etc. is a proper name or not. This is why you are afraid to answer the simple question about the Alif. Here is how you lied and wrote, for example, 25:38 and deleted the final Alif of Thamudaa (copied and pasted from your post):
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَأَصْحَابَ الرَّسِّ وَقُرُونًا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ كَثِيرًا
Everyone can open their copy of the great reading at home and verify that it is in reality spelled as follows with a final Alif:
وعادا وثمودا واصحاب الرس وقرونا بين ذلك كثيرا
If the Alif is so inconsequential then why did you lie about it and then refused to answer the simple question? I gave you the opportunity to answer the simple question about the Alif and humbly correct your mistake but you refused. So unfortunately the only impression the intelligent reader will take is that you are a stubborn liar, not only to them but also to the god since you deliberately distorted his signs.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
It is really sad that you do not know the definition and signs of Diptote.No wander that that you do not know the meanings of "Shahr" either.
Anyway ,I do not want you to be more in agony by asking you these definition.But my humble opinion ,please do learn a little bit arabic before commenting on the Quran.
Regards
At least have some shame QS. You aren't fooling anyone you know.
Quote from: savage_carrot on June 10, 2009, 10:59:33 AM
At least have some shame QS. You aren't fooling anyone you know.
Peace
Unless you do not define what the diptote is and how to identify it ,how can you know whether some word is being used as Diptote or not.
You can help him if you like.
Regards
You know what the deal is sadly, and yet still persist in your diptotty bag of tricks because you can't resolve the issue that has been raised. It is a breach of debating etiquette and you've already lost credibility. Go on if you like.
Quote from: Q_student on June 09, 2009, 07:54:52 PM
Dear Brother
These are your quoted verses :
وَأَخَذَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا الصَّيْحَةُ فَأَصْبَحُوا فِي دِيَارِهِمْ جَاثِمِينَ (67) كَأَنْ لَمْ يَغْنَوْا فِيهَا أَلَا إِنَّ ثَمُودَ كَفَرُوا رَبَّهُمْ أَلَا بُعْدًا لِثَمُودَ [هود/67، 68]
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَأَصْحَابَ الرَّسِّ وَقُرُونًا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ كَثِيرًا [الفرقان/38]
وَعَادًا وَثَمُودَ وَقَدْ تَبَيَّنَ لَكُمْ مِنْ مَسَاكِنِهِمْ وَزَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ فَصَدَّهُمْ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَكَانُوا مُسْتَبْصِرِينَ [العنكبوت/38]
وَثَمُودَ فَمَا أَبْقَى [النجم/51]
These examples of yours show that you do not know even what diptote and triptote is .
In all of these verses it is used as "Diptote"
May ask you what are diptote and triptotes ?
I was not expecting such type of ignorance from a person who belongs to an Arabi speaking country (If I am not wrong).Is Arabic not taught over there ?
Regards
Dear brother
those are not his quoted verses, I hate to say that but you have proved yourself a liar and above all you have no courage to accept your fault. this is not the behaviour of a student of quran. :nope:
Quote from: RasulHamsa on June 10, 2009, 03:46:05 PM
Dear brother
those are not his quoted verses, I hate to say that but you have proved yourself a liar and above all you have no courage to accept your fault. this is not the behaviour of a student of quran. :nope:
Peace ;
No problem you put down his quoted verses it these are those.Do not give numbers but copy paste actual.
If you want to help him ,define Diptotes and how to identify them with evidence .
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on June 10, 2009, 05:58:36 PM
define Diptotes and how to identify them with evidence .
Regards
Salaam q_student
You brought up the issue of diptotes and triptotes. Please define them if you believe that others do not understand what they are. This is a learnig forum, and not a wrestling ring. I am waiting to see if
you know your diptotes from your triptotes, and that you do not ask anymore anyone else about them before explaining them.
Quote from: Samia on June 11, 2009, 02:29:05 AM
Salaam q_student
You brought up the issue of diptotes and triptotes. Please define them if you believe that others do not understand what they are. This is a learnig forum, and not a wrestling ring. I am waiting to see if you know your diptotes from your triptotes, and that you do not ask anymore anyone else about them before explaining them.
Peace sister
Please consult W.Wright or some other standard book about the definition and bring it up for the readers.I will appreciate.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on June 11, 2009, 09:39:52 AM
Peace sister
Please consult W.Wright or some other standard book about the definition and bring it up for the readers.I will appreciate.
Regards
Salaam q_student
I am the one asking you to show to the others that you do not know diptotes nor triptotes. I am not a part of your silly game, and don't make me one. Why don't you do it yourself? I will appreciate, too.
Quote from: Samia on June 11, 2009, 10:19:26 AM
Salaam q_student
I am the one asking you to show to the others that you do not know diptotes nor triptotes. I am not a part of your silly game, and don't make me one. Why don't you do it yourself? I will appreciate, too.
Peace Samia
Let the actual debater Ayman accept that he does not know ,then I will put.
Why don't you ask him to put it or accept it.
Regards
Peace Ayman, nwryn, everyone,
Quote from: AymanThe word "ramadhan" has two connotations, hot and red. Only the full-moon after the solstice fits those two connotations since it occurs during the hottest time of the year and is also red.
I think nwryn raises a very good point. I have been thinking about this for a while. Logically, the full-moon closest to the summer solstice will be hotter and redder, and should be considered as shahr ramadhaan. I think we need to undertake a scientific study to resolve this issue and see which one is hotter and redder, the one closest to the summer solstice or the one after the summer solstice.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on June 11, 2009, 11:38:49 AM
Peace Ayman, nwryn, everyone,
I think nwryn raises a very good point. I have been thinking about this for a while. Logically, the full-moon closest to the summer solstice will be hotter and redder, and should be considered as shahr ramadhaan. I think we need to undertake a scientific study to resolve this issue and see which one is hotter and redder, the one closest to the summer solstice or the one after the summer solstice.
Peace
The word "Ramadhan " is a proper noun it cannot be translated as you cannot translate January ,February etc .It cannot be translated.Secondly,the word "Ramadha' does not have meaning of "Redness" in it. Third "Shahr" never means full moon.
Regards
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on June 11, 2009, 11:38:49 AMI think nwryn raises a very good point. I have been thinking about this for a while. Logically, the full-moon closest to the summer solstice will be hotter and redder, and should be considered as shahr ramadhaan. I think we need to undertake a scientific study to resolve this issue and see which one is hotter and redder, the one closest to the summer solstice or the one after the summer solstice.
I would be glad to consider other alternatives. However, in this case I think this is pretty well scientifically and logically established. Unless you live on the equator where it is always hot, the hottest time of the year will start after the summer solstice and not before.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
My research so far indicates that you are right. Following are the average temperatures for NYC before and after summer solstice:
http://www.accuweather.com/us/ny/new-york/10001/forecast-normals.asp?partner=netweather&traveler=1&zipchg=1&metric=0&month=6
Quote from: Q_student on June 11, 2009, 10:54:45 AM
Peace Samia
Let the actual debater Ayman accept that he does not know ,then I will put.
Why don't you ask him to put it or accept it.
Regards
This is not about Ayman nor Rassulhamsa. It's about your unacceptable way of discussing. From your response I understand that you are unable to answer the very question you think you are challenging others with, so please do not participate with the intention of challenging others and intimidating them, thus derailing serious discussions. . End of this discussion.
Peace everyone,
The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 is coming on July 6 for the Northern Hemisphere. Therefore, the fast starts on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting is July 16th. Here is the data for the Washington DC Area:
WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
W 77 02, N38 53
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 6, 2009
Eastern Standard Time
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 0.6 123.5 1.00
19:40 2.0 125.1 1.00
19:50 3.5 126.6 1.00
20:00 4.9 128.2 1.00
20:10 6.4 129.9 1.00
20:20 7.8 131.6 1.00
20:30 9.2 133.3 1.00
20:40 10.5 135.0 1.00
20:50 11.9 136.8 1.00
21:00 13.1 138.7 1.00
21:10 14.4 140.5 1.00
21:20 15.6 142.5 1.00
21:30 16.7 144.4 1.00
21:40 17.8 146.5 1.00
21:50 18.8 148.5 1.00
22:00 19.8 150.6 1.00
22:10 20.7 152.8 1.00
22:20 21.5 155.0 1.00
22:30 22.3 157.2 1.00
22:40 23.0 159.5 1.00
22:50 23.7 161.8 1.00
23:00 24.2 164.1 1.00
23:10 24.7 166.5 1.00
23:20 25.1 168.9 1.00
23:30 25.5 171.3 1.00
23:40 25.7 173.8 1.00
23:50 25.9 176.2 1.00
00:00 26.0 178.7 1.00
00:10 26.0 181.1 1.00
00:20 26.0 183.6 1.00
00:30 25.8 186.1 1.00
00:40 25.6 188.5 1.00
00:50 25.3 191.0 1.00
01:00 24.9 193.4 1.00
01:10 24.5 195.8 1.00
01:20 23.9 198.1 1.00
01:30 23.3 200.5 1.00
01:40 22.6 202.7 1.00
01:50 21.9 205.0 1.00
02:00 21.1 207.2 1.00
02:10 20.2 209.4 1.00
02:20 19.2 211.5 1.00
02:30 18.2 213.6 1.00
02:40 17.2 215.7 1.00
02:50 16.1 217.7 1.00
03:00 14.9 219.6 1.00
03:10 13.7 221.5 1.00
03:20 12.4 223.4 1.00
03:30 11.1 225.2 1.00
03:40 9.8 227.0 1.00
03:50 8.4 228.8 1.00
04:00 7.0 230.5 1.00
04:10 5.6 232.2 1.00
04:20 4.1 233.8 1.00
04:30 2.7 235.4 1.00
04:40 1.3 237.0 1.00
From:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Peace,
Ayman
That fast is going to be hard... aprox. 18-19 hours in summer...good luck.
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on June 22, 2009, 06:18:15 PMThat fast is going to be hard... aprox. 18-19 hours in summer...good luck.
Thanks for the encouragement. Keep in mind that per 2:184, those who can fast but with difficulty, can instead feed the needy.
Notice that feeding the needy at the time of hardship is described as taking the steep path in 90:14-16. Fasting on the hottest time of the year and when days are longest is also taking the steep path.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I have a question about the period of "shahru ramadaan"... Based on 2:184, you agree that we can substitute the action of "seyaam" by feeding the poor. However, shouldn't the poor people be fasting/abstaining from food too (if this is what the act of seyaam is implying)? What if we approach a poor muslim, can he eat during this period if he witnesses the "shahru ramadaan"? Or is it possible that the act of "seyaam" is referring to something other than abstaining from eating and drinking? I was just wondering, since this is something I couldn't understand from the passage... How do we know that the Qur'aanic command to "abstain" is speaking about from eating and drinking?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace everyone,
1. The poor don't have enough food to eat for the whole year and they are in a perpetual state of abstinence from food for the whole year. The annual time of abstinence will actually be a time for them to rejoice because some believers might feed them and they will have enough food for at least the duration of abstinence. I know a person who is poor and she resides in a highly developed country. She has been eating only once a day for a long time now. What I am talking about is a reality.
2. The annual abstinence is only for the mumineen/believers and not for all muslimeen. There are a lot of poor muslimeen too; not all of them are mumineen.
3. There are an overwhelming majority of poor who are not even muslimeen. The qur'aan does not ask us to feed the poor muslimeen only. They could belong to any faith or religion.
A little common sense goes a long way to understand the qur'aanic commandments.
The only time there will be no poor to feed during the time of abstinence is if there are no more poor people in the world which is impossible or if all the poor people are also mumineen which is again impossible:
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
This sign makes it clear that the majority of the people lead away from the god's path so all poor people in the world being mumineen will be impossible.
Peace Ahmad,
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on June 22, 2009, 11:08:38 PMI have a question about the period of "shahru ramadaan"... Based on 2:184, you agree that we can substitute the action of "seyaam" by feeding the poor. However, shouldn't the poor people be fasting/abstaining from food too (if this is what the act of seyaam is implying)? What if we approach a poor muslim, can he eat during this period if he witnesses the "shahru ramadaan"? Or is it possible that the act of "seyaam" is referring to something other than abstaining from eating and drinking? I was just wondering, since this is something I couldn't understand from the passage... How do we know that the Qur'aanic command to "abstain" is speaking about from eating and drinking?
I think that 2:187 makes it clear that the abstinence is from the following 3 things:
1. Sexual contact
2. Food
3. Drink
The poor should be abstaining too. However, everyone, poor or not can eat after sunset. What do the poor do now when they fast 30 days using the sectarian timing? Does everyone stop feeding the poor because of this and they starve to death? Certainly not! In fact, during those 30 days the poor have a lot more access to food because many good citizens set up public feasts at sunset.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 23, 2009, 01:45:45 PM
The poor should be abstaining too. However, everyone, poor or not can eat after sunset.
When do you break your fast? Full darkness of the night or dusk?
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on June 23, 2009, 05:43:48 PMWhen do you break your fast? Full darkness of the night or dusk?
According to the great reading, night starts at sunset as it is merged into daylight. So the abstinence ends when night starts at sunset.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace :
Ramadhan (the month of fasting ) is likely to start to start during the last ten days of August because today is Rajab 1.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on June 24, 2009, 08:00:43 PM
Peace :
Ramadhan (the month of fasting ) is likely to start to start during the last ten days of August because today is Rajab 1.
Regards
It's the 21st ;)
Had Umar decided to make the new era start on 616CE instead of 622CE then what sectarians now call Rajab 1 would have been Ramadhan 1 and they would be fasting right now.
Quote from: ayman on June 25, 2009, 02:31:40 AM
Had Umar decided to make the new era start on 616CE instead of 622CE then what sectarians now call Rajab 1 would have been Ramadhan 1 and they would be fasting right now.
Thank God that he didnt. :laugh:
I dont care about the shifiting, BTW.
Quote from: progressive1993 on June 25, 2009, 06:46:24 AM
Thank God that he didnt. :laugh:
I dont care about the shifiting, BTW.
And Umar did not try to befool people with "inscriptions".
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on June 25, 2009, 04:03:40 PM
And Umar did not try to befool people with "inscriptions".
Regards
so how did he try to befool people then? in the name of "authorities"? :confused:
i havent had a chance to really read this article, but wasnt umar the second caliph... and one of the prophets (saw) companions? if so how could he have gotten this soo wrong?
Quote from: procrastinator on July 02, 2009, 09:14:17 PM
i havent had a chance to really read this article, but wasnt umar the second caliph... and one of the prophets (saw) companions? if so how could he have gotten this soo wrong?
They didnt ;)
The current Ramadan is the correct one.
Quote from: progressive1993 on July 02, 2009, 09:29:34 PM
They didnt ;)
The current Ramadan is the correct one.
yh i agree :D
Quote from: Q_student on June 25, 2009, 04:03:40 PM
And Umar did not try to befool people with "inscriptions".
Regards
But why you are so sure that Umar made the new calendar????
Quote from: afridi220 on July 03, 2009, 12:22:49 AM
But why you are so sure that Umar made the new calendar????
Peace
Please read the whole thread and see who said this then comment.
"Think before you speak".
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on July 03, 2009, 12:41:11 AM
Peace
Please read the whole thread and see who said this then comment.
"Think before you speak".
Regards
Yes I?m aware of that thread and Wikipedia too but I don?t buy that story, like many other hadiths this one is also concocted.
:peace:
Peace Procrastinator,
Quote from: procrastinator on July 02, 2009, 09:14:17 PMi havent had a chance to really read this article, but wasnt umar the second caliph... and one of the prophets (saw) companions? if so how could he have gotten this soo wrong?
If you think that the present timing could be "so wrong" then the question of "how" or "who" is irrelevant since it doesn't magically make the timing right or non-arbitrary.
Unfortunately, the majority of so-called Muslims have been raised on hero-worship of the so-called Sahaba such as Umar. So deep inside they think that those guys were infallible. However, in reality all the instances of the prophet's "sahaba" in the great reading cast them in a negative light. In the two cases where they are mentioned in 53:2 and 81:22 they thought that the prophet is crazy and lost. Moreover, there is absolutely ZERO evidence that Umar ever met or even saw the prophet. It seems that to gain legitimacy every ruler had to claim to have a lineage or connection to the prophet. Rulers in the middle east do it to the present day.
The real questions that you need to be asking are the following:
1. Is the sectarian timing arbitrary? The answer is absolutely YES.
2. Do animals and therefore hunting restrictions go by the solar cycle? The answer is absolutely YES.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on July 03, 2009, 12:40:27 PM
Peace Procrastinator,
Unfortunately, the majority of so-called Muslims have been raised on hero-worship of the so-called Sahaba such as Umar. So deep inside they think that those guys were infallible.
Ayman
Peace :
Those were not infallible like any human being but those were the most RELIABLE groups because their righteousness and sincerity is evident even in the Quran because they got divine certificate.
وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ [التوبة/100]
Quran does not allow any "inscription " based interpretations.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on July 03, 2009, 04:06:27 PM
Those were not infallible like any human being but those were the most RELIABLE groups because their righteousness and sincerity is evident even in the Quran because they got divine certificate.
Quran does not allow any "inscription " based interpretations.
Regards
:bravo:
elhamdulillah, quran only allows hadith based interpretations:
وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ* وَالْأَنْصَارِ* وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ [التوبة/100]
9: 100 And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajirun (those who migrated from Makkah to Al- Madinah, Umar, Abu bakr siddiq etc) and the Ansar (the citizens of Al- Madinah, abu ayyub alansari, Abu Mas'ud Al-Ansari etc who helped and gave aid to the Muhajirun) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them* as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.
* For the complete list of muhajireen and ansaar see Bukhari, Muslim etc
Quote from: RasulHamsa on July 03, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
:bravo:
elhamdulillah, quran only allows hadith based interpretations:
وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ* وَالْأَنْصَارِ* وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ [التوبة/100]
9: 100 And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajirun (those who migrated from Makkah to Al- Madinah, Umar, Abu bakr siddiq etc) and the Ansar (the citizens of Al- Madinah, abu ayyub alansari, Abu Mas'ud Al-Ansari etc who helped and gave aid to the Muhajirun) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them* as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.
* For the complete list of muhajireen and ansaar see Bukhari, Muslim etc
:rotfl:
Peace Ayman,
I have the following comments on your Hot/?Ramadan? article. The quotations in red are excerpt from your article.
?Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine.?
No, this is not fine because your theory/approach contradicts Quranic verses and defies common sense.
Your theory allows for two different nights of destiny, one in the July time-frame in the Northern hemisphere and the second one in January time-frame in the Southern hemisphere. The two nights are separated by about six months. And this contradicts Quranic verse 97:1 - We revealed it in the Night of Destiny. The Quran talks about one night of Destiny only. The below quote of yours implies that you agree with one night of Destiny as well. Therefore, you are contracting yourself from the get-go.
?Interestingly, after completing this article, we inadvertently found out exactly when the night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr") occurs. Simply, the great reading was descended in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat.?
Common sense would dictate that the night of Destiny will start in one hemisphere and end in the other hemisphere in 24 hours. The night sweeps the globe in 24 hours with known exception at the Polar Regions. This is consistent with the Quran and common sense (of many people).
Further, if we apply your definition ?The full moon of scorching heat?, we find that the scorching full moon of the southern hemisphere around January time-frame (perihelion) satisfies the definition. At this time the Earth is closest to the sun unlike the northern hemisphere aphelion (July 4). The problem is we don?t find Prophet Muhammad in the southern hemisphere. Hence, your theory proves that Quran was not reveled to Prophet Muhammad which in turns implies that the God is a liar. And that is not true. Therefore, your theory must be false.
The God created the moon (Earth) for us so that we can count the twelve months. The Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of verse 9:36, 2:189, 14:33 is 1 moon cycle = 1 month. After counting 12 moon cycles we reset the count back to one again. There is nothing more and nothing less (no 13 moon nonsense). The moon cycles every 29.530 days.
The length of the solar cycle is 365.242 days. The Earth?s spin gives us days and nights. That is the service provided by the sun.
Pure solar and lunar cycles (calendars) are continually adrift against the seasons i.e. there is no connection between the seasons and the solar and lunar cycle. This is your Lord?s design. Are you questioning His design? Then why are you trying to connect the seasons to the solar and lunar cycles and bring new law to us? Are you trying to lead us astray? Or have you received a revelation from Him?
If the God wanted the season connection then He would have designed solar and lunar cycle accordingly.
The similitude is like this ?The God tells us to worship Him alone? but most people do the opposite. Likewise, the God tells us not to make new religious law (e.g. start fasting in hot full moon) but many of us do. The God has just the right punishment waiting for the disbeliever. Just wait and see.
The God said if you cannot fast in the month of Ramadan due to illness you can make it up another time. He did not say you will get less credit because you did not fast in the month of Ramadan. This proves that there are no seasonal ties to the fasting month.
Of course, there is nothing wrong in using solar cycle or lunar cycle or both together to solve some worldly problems such as determining the most optimum time to sow seeds. These are the deviation and not the standard. The standards are the natural lunar and solar cycles and according to the Quran our religious matter must be based on these standards.
?This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]?
Flawed approach: If you accept this then you must also accept Jesus as son of God, Idol worship and other nonsense archeological dig. Remember you cannot pick and choose evidence after you have accepted the archeological approach to determine truth from falsehood i.e. any archeological find is truth. How do you handle a situation where today?s archeological finding is contradicted by future archeological findings? How do you account for true evidence that is lost for ever? How do you define a complete archeological evidence set? A conclusion based on a incomplete set of evidence is not trustworthy (equates to hearsay, hadith). Do you believe in king Tut and sun worship?
?So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.?
Tying a calendar to an event does not change the lunar cycle. Therefore, the arbitrary decision problem you are instigating has no merit.
?The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.?
A righteous person would have stop right here. However, a deviated person would go witch hunting for information that does not exist.
?According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply??
Classical Arabic dictionaries = Hadith (hearsay). Is dictionary your idol?
Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad use to do what you are advocating or Prophet did it wrong? If Prophet Muhammad did it your way then where is your evidence of deviation (when did people start to deviate).
A-salaam alaikum
I have a question, you quoted the verses below. My question is where in them verses does it say that the cycle of the moon = 1 month? It does however say: They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj.
Now it provides a timing devise for the people not necessarily a timing device to determine one month, could be a timing device for something else???. Also its a timing device to determine Hajj. Also, The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. e.g. Jan, feb, march, etc... We use twelve months now. Logic tells me we are using a good calander system now which determines the seasons and natural system that god provided for us. I know from this system when to plant my crop (if I was a farmer), when to book my holiday and where to go to enjoy some rays etc etc...
May be you should have stared your sentence as: The God created the moon, sun, earth and the stars for us so that we can count the twelve months....
Forgive me if I have raised a question that might be clear to others. Excuse my ignorance as I do not mean to challege anyones understanding, thinking mine is above anyone elses. Iam new and just like many here, I am seeking the truth and logic. May God guide us to the correct system. May peace from God transcend upon you all.
The God created the moon (Earth) for us so that we can count the twelve months. The Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of verse 9:36, 2:189, 14:33 is 1 moon cycle = 1 month. After counting 12 moon cycles we reset the count back to one again. There is nothing more and nothing less (no 13 moon nonsense). The moon cycles every 29.530 days.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMI have the following comments on your Hot/?Ramadan? article. The quotations in red are excerpt from your article.
?Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine.?
No, this is not fine because your theory/approach contradicts Quranic verses and defies common sense.
The restriction is about hunting wild life. Wild life follows the solar cycle, not the lunar one. The cycle of wild life is different between the southern and the northern hemispheres. So it is normal that the restriction period would also be different.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMYour theory allows for two different nights of destiny, one in the July time-frame in the Northern hemisphere and the second one in January time-frame in the Southern hemisphere. The two nights are separated by about six months. And this contradicts Quranic verse 97:1 - We revealed it in the Night of Destiny. The Quran talks about one night of Destiny only. The below quote of yours implies that you agree with one night of Destiny as well. Therefore, you are contracting yourself from the get-go.
Firstly, it is the night of ?measure? not ?destiny?. Please see how ?qadar? is used throughout the great reading, for example in 36:39.
Secondly, who said there are two nights or over 1400 nights? You need to read carefully the whole passage in Chapter 97. The god said that he descended the great reading in the night of measure. He also said that the night of measure is PEACEFUL until the rise of daybreak. It is an indisputable reality that there is not a single night of the year where people suddenly stop fighting wars and peace on earth is achieved and criminals don't rob or kill. Unless you are saying that the god is exaggerating then your traditional interpretation is clearly verifiable as false. In my opinion, there are two feasible interpretations:
1. The night of measure occurred only once over 1400 years ago when the great reading was descended.
2. The night of measure is experienced in terms of its benefits and peacefulness as a result of one?s realization of what this night is. This is in line with other benefits of the night in general like those described in 73:6. Only those who study and ponder in the night would experience 73:6. Those who commit sins during the night wouldn?t experience the effects of the night in 73:6. Since this is based on the individual and therefore their location in conjunction with the night, then this night being different in the southern and northern hemispheres is not an issue.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AM
?Interestingly, after completing this article, we inadvertently found out exactly when the night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr") occurs. Simply, the great reading was descended in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat.?
Common sense would dictate that the night of Destiny will start in one hemisphere and end in the other hemisphere in 24 hours. The night sweeps the globe in 24 hours with known exception at the Polar Regions. This is consistent with the Quran and common sense (of many people).
Further, if we apply your definition ?The full moon of scorching heat?, we find that the scorching full moon of the southern hemisphere around January time-frame (perihelion) satisfies the definition. At this time the Earth is closest to the sun unlike the northern hemisphere aphelion (July 4). The problem is we don?t find Prophet Muhammad in the southern hemisphere. Hence, your theory proves that Quran was not reveled to Prophet Muhammad which in turns implies that the God is a liar. And that is not true. Therefore, your theory must be false.
Prophet Muhammad wasn?t in America or Morocco or Tokyo. The ?night? in those locations occurs at a different time than in Arabia. So those ?nights of measure? are not the right ones either according to your logic. Also, using your logic, the problem is that we don?t find Prophet Muhammad anywhere since he is dead, so there is no night of measure.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMThe God created the moon (Earth) for us so that we can count the twelve months. The Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of verse 9:36, 2:189, 14:33 is 1 moon cycle = 1 month. After counting 12 moon cycles we reset the count back to one again. There is nothing more and nothing less (no 13 moon nonsense). The moon cycles every 29.530 days.
The length of the solar cycle is 365.242 days. The Earth?s spin gives us days and nights. That is the service provided by the sun.
Pure solar and lunar cycles (calendars) are continually adrift against the seasons i.e. there is no connection between the seasons and the solar and lunar cycle. This is your Lord?s design. Are you questioning His design? Then why are you trying to connect the seasons to the solar and lunar cycles and bring new law to us? Are you trying to lead us astray? Or have you received a revelation from Him?
Yes, I have received revelation from him and so have you. We both received 17:12 but you are ignoring it while I am not:
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar.
So you are in fact violating 9:36 EVERY SINGLE YEAR because you are counting 12.3 ?months? in a 17:12 year. Also, 9:36-37 is about not violating the god?s restriction. What is restricted is hunting wild life, which follows the solar cycle. This is an indisputable fact.
Also, where does the word ?moon?, ?month? or ?year? occur in 2:189? You clearly don?t even understand the simple facts in 2:189.
Please read carefully 14:33 and 10:5 and note that they talk about using the sun AND the moon. Why do you reject the god?s words and not use both?
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMIf the God wanted the season connection then He would have designed solar and lunar cycle accordingly.
He did. When you count ONLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE YEAR as the god commanded you in 9:36, then the cycle is adjusted effortlessly and automatically and without relying on religious authorities.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMThe similitude is like this ?The God tells us to worship Him alone? but most people do the opposite. Likewise, the God tells us not to make new religious law (e.g. start fasting in hot full moon) but many of us do. The God has just the right punishment waiting for the disbeliever. Just wait and see.
I am waiting with you.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMThe God said if you cannot fast in the month of Ramadan due to illness you can make it up another time. He did not say you will get less credit because you did not fast in the month of Ramadan. This proves that there are no seasonal ties to the fasting month.
This proves nothing except that you have no real argument.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMOf course, there is nothing wrong in using solar cycle or lunar cycle or both together to solve some worldly problems such as determining the most optimum time to sow seeds. These are the deviation and not the standard. The standards are the natural lunar and solar cycles and according to the Quran our religious matter must be based on these standards.
You mean the Umar calendar standard and not the god?s standard.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AM?This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]?
Flawed approach: If you accept this then you must also accept Jesus as son of God, Idol worship and other nonsense archeological dig. Remember you cannot pick and choose evidence after you have accepted the archeological approach to determine truth from falsehood i.e. any archeological find is truth. How do you handle a situation where today?s archeological finding is contradicted by future archeological findings? How do you account for true evidence that is lost for ever? How do you define a complete archeological evidence set? A conclusion based on a incomplete set of evidence is not trustworthy (equates to hearsay, hadith). Do you believe in king Tut and sun worship?
The god orders people to walk the earth and look at the traces left by those before them in passages such as 30:9 and others. Why do you reject 30:9? The conclusions that one reaches based on studying the archeological evidence will depend on the person?s intelligence, objectivity and level of rational thinking and lack of bias. While someone like you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of god (the god be most exalted above what they describe), someone like me wouldn?t.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AM?So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.?
Tying a calendar to an event does not change the lunar cycle. Therefore, the arbitrary decision problem you are instigating has no merit.
It is not my problem that you don?t even know what you are following. You ignore that you are following a calendar. Since you are following a calendar that starts at a certain manmade year ONE and that has a certain manmade order of the months. The starting point of the calendar and the order of the months HAVE NOTHING TO DO with the lunar or solar cycles and are completely arbitrary manmade decisions. It is an indisputable fact that had the Umar calendar been made to start three years earlier then you would be fasting Ramadhan in what is now Sha3ban. It is also an indisputable fact that had the manmade order of the months been different then you would be fasting an entirely different month. So for all intents and purposes, sectarians are fasting a 100% arbitrary manmade month.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AM?The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.?
A righteous person would have stop right here. However, a deviated person would go witch hunting for information that does not exist.
?According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply??
Classical Arabic dictionaries = Hadith (hearsay). Is dictionary your idol?
How did you learn Arabic so that you can read the great reading? You learned it from grammar books and dictionaries. Are grammar books and dictionaries and school books your idol? Don?t be a hypocrite. One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently, is aware of their weaknesses and mistakes and validates them against the great reading.
Quote from: guest on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 AMAre you saying that Prophet Muhammad use to do what you are advocating or Prophet did it wrong? If Prophet Muhammad did it your way then where is your evidence of deviation (when did people start to deviate).
No. You are the one who is implying that the prophet followed the wrong timing. You are following Umar?s calendar which was backdated to the supposed year of the Hijra, therefore implying that the prophet fasted on the wrong dates.
Peace,
Ayman
A-salaam alaikum
Thank you for your explenation Ayman, seems logical to me. I have a few questions if you or anyone without taking too much of your time wont mind answering or directing me to sites that have answered these questions before:
1. There seems to be many celebrations or special timings in Islam like Eid, night of measure, ramadan etc. Where in the Quran is the evidence for this? Do we know the exact dates or timings to observe these special events?
2. Ayman, you mentioned Umar's calander, when was this invented? If this was a later addition, where did the need to change come from? I was always lead to believe that this timing system was present in the time of the prophet.
3. How about the name of the months, who gave them the names they have today? History is amazing!
This is really strange that I am asking these questions coming from a muslim background. I suddenly feel liberated and following a path which feels clearer to me, more logical and in line with the Quran. I always had questions before but was always told not to question what I had no knowledge of and the people at the top were specially chosen to lead us as their spirit was closest to God (holy people). As a result I have had many questions burning inside me for so long. Sorry just wanted to share that bit with you all 8)
Peace to you all.
Peace Hope4,
Quote from: hope4 on July 26, 2009, 12:55:52 PMThank you for your explenation Ayman, seems logical to me. I have a few questions if you or anyone without taking too much of your time wont mind answering or directing me to sites that have answered these questions before:
1. There seems to be many celebrations or special timings in Islam like Eid, night of measure, ramadan etc. Where in the Quran is the evidence for this? Do we know the exact dates or timings to observe these special events?
This whole thread is about the timing of ?shahr ramadhan? and the night of measure. As for the various Islamic Eids, we can take a day of rest but it is wrong to claim that the god ordered us to rest on a certain day (7:163).
Quote from: hope4 on July 26, 2009, 12:55:52 PM2. Ayman, you mentioned Umar's calander, when was this invented? If this was a later addition, where did the need to change come from? I was always lead to believe that this timing system was present in the time of the prophet.
The need to change came about when the Islamic Empire became an Empire and thus needed to establish its own standards.
Quote from: hope4 on July 26, 2009, 12:55:52 PM3. How about the name of the months, who gave them the names they have today? History is amazing!
Some of the names came from the Jewish calendar while others came from the calendar of the nomads. The names of the day of the week came directly from the Jewish calendar.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf
However, the order of the months seems to have been rearranged when the calendar was disconnected from the seasons. For example, in the calendar of the nomads, Rabi3 Al-Awwal (first grazing) occurred in spring while Rabi3 Al-Thanni (second grazing) occurred in early fall. It seems that a modified purely lunar Jewish calendar was adopted but the months were given Arab names to satisfy the Arab nationalistic orientation of the new empire.
Quote from: hope4 on July 26, 2009, 12:55:52 PMThis is really strange that I am asking these questions coming from a muslim background. I suddenly feel liberated and following a path which feels clearer to me, more logical and in line with the Quran. I always had questions before but was always told not to question what I had no knowledge of and the people at the top were specially chosen to lead us as their spirit was closest to God (holy people). As a result I have had many questions burning inside me for so long. Sorry just wanted to share that bit with you all 8)
Thank you for sharing. Everyone here is on the same road towards the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Thank you for taking the time to reply, very enlightening. The link to the Islamic Jewish Calendar is amazing, deffinitly did not know that before! Its amazing what we follow for years without questioning. May God help us make progress in our journey of knowledge and keep us on the right path.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on July 26, 2009, 09:18:27 PM
Peace Ayman
Thank you for taking the time to reply, very enlightening. The link to the Islamic Jewish Calendar is amazing, deffinitly did not know that before! Its amazing what we follow for years without questioning. May God help us make progress in our journey of knowledge and keep us on the right path.
Peace
Hope
you are right bro :welcome:
Thank you Munzir Ali.
Peace
Hope
Peace Hope4,
?My question is where in them verses does it say that the cycle of the moon = 1 month??
The God said that the sun and the moon should be used for timing purpose (calculate time). He also said there are 12 months. And verse 55:5 - ?The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.? Therefore, our timing system should be based on moon and sun and not man made seasons based system. Sun gives us days, nights, and 365.242 days period. The sun cannot give us month. It is not designed to do so. In this system the month has to be man made. The moon gives us about 29.5 days cycle. Therefore, an easy deduction is 1 month = 1 moon cycle. This is consistent with the God's law because nothing is added or taken away from the moon cycle. The sun provides us with days and nights which can be used to calculate a year (12*29.5=354 days). All man made calendars are non-compliant with the God?s law. Only the Islamic calendar is moon based and in fully compliant with the God's law. Julian calendar is purely sun based but there is no means for calculating a month in accordance with the God?s law.
?Logic tells me we are using a good calander system now which determines the seasons and natural system that god provided for us.?
No, because they are not based on the God's law. They manipulate days in all the months to maintain synch with seasons which is violation of 55:5. Even with all the manipulation the calendar is still off by 18 hrs per year. Ayman is using this wrong system to disprove the God's timing system. There is no connection between seasons and the 12 months. Please show me a verse that says our calendar should be based on seasons.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 07:37:16 AMAyman is using this wrong system to disprove the God's timing system. There is no connection between seasons and the 12 months. Please show me a verse that says our calendar should be based on seasons.
Unless you take Umar as your god, I only disproved Umar's Calendar system. You admit above that the timing should be based on BOTH the sun and the moon. It is an indisputable fact that the sun is what determines the seasons. So you are contradicting yourself. Also, you continue to ignore 17:12 which clearly says that the number of years is determined by the day and night (i.e., the interval between solstices) and doesn't mention the moon at all. It is impossible to have a 354 days period delineated by the day and night. According to 55:5, the system based on the great reading should be luni-solar as I described at the start of this long thread while your Umar system is a completely useless lunar system that even its most ardent supporters hypocritically ignore when it comes to any practical purposes.
Peace,
Ayman
The Quranic calendar is a lunar calendar with 12 lunar cycles in a lunar year. The Solar year is not counted but the seasons determine the months. So Ramadan doesn't have a fixed position in the calendar but moves within the calendar to be fixed with the seasons.
It is like having January the first month in one year and the second months in another.
So Ramadan has no fixed position in the calendar and no lunar cycle is brushed off as being intercalary.
Thats the only way to respect both the sun and the moon.
Peace Ayman,
You say: ?The restriction is about hunting wild life.?
I am not questioning the hunting restriction rather I am questioning your definition of Ramadan in the first restricted full-moon after the summer solstice. Perhaps you forgot what you have said. Here is what I am questioning:
?So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan") is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual.....?
This theory of yours contradicts Quranic verses and does not pass common sense test. The rationale for my position is provided in the previous post of mine.
You say: ?Wild life follows the solar cycle, not the lunar one.?
No, they follow neither. They are appreciative of the God and follow the God given instinct. The animals are not aware of man made calendars. I think you may have missed my definition of solar and lunar timing system in the previous post. Let me define it again for you.
The God's Timing system:
The God's solar cycle = 365.242 days
The God's moon cycle =29.530 days
55:5 - ?The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.?
These are the definition I follow to calculate the twelve months and to perform religious duties. Accordingly, my month = 29.530 days. This is the God's system. Therefore, please don't ask me to deviate from this system. Also, note that there is no connection between these definition and the seasons. However, people who try to discredit the God's system would tie the seasons to solar or lunar cycle and say that the God's timing system is wrong because it does not synchronize with the seasons and therefore should be abandoned. Ayman is suggesting that we shun the God's timing system and use the man made timing system in violation of 55:5.
The currently used Islamic calendar is based on the God's moon cycle (29.530 days). Therefore, this is the perfect timing system.
Now let us look at Ayman timing system:
The man made solar cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (365.242+delta; different days in months e.g. 28, 29, 30, 31, four year day adjustment, etc.)
The man made moon cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (13 moon nonsense)
I hope you see the difference between the God's timing system and the man made timing system. Nowhere in the Quran do we find the God telling us to define a season based timing system and to use it for religious purpose.
Instead this is what the God said:
2:189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, ?They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj, it is ....
The moon?s phases are parts of 29.530 days. It provides finer counts within a month. It is the natural cycle of the moon that are to be used for counting time and not Ayman's deviated (man made) solar or lunar calendar.
10:5 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate.....
84:18 - And the moon and its phases.
Yes, moon is our timing system and the sun gives us days and nights.
14:33 - He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, continuously... (NOT AUGMENTED MOON CYCLE)
You say: ?The cycle of wild life is different between the southern and the northern hemispheres. So it is normal that the restriction period would also be different.?
Wildlife cycle is a non-issue. The problem is Ramadan in the restricted periods of South hemisphere and north hemisphere implies two nights of destiny approximately six months apart.
You say: ?Firstly, it is the night of ?measure? not ?destiny?.?
First you said destiny then you say it is measure. This is a Flip-Flop. What will it be tomorrow?
You say: ?He also said that the night of measure is PEACEFUL until the rise of daybreak. It is an indisputable reality that there is not a single night of the year where people suddenly stop fighting wars and peace on earth is achieved and criminals don't rob or kill.?
The believers are at peace. The disbelievers are in the hellfire. The God always takes good care of the believers.
You say: ?Prophet Muhammad wasn?t in America or Morocco or Tokyo. The ?night? in those locations occurs at a different time than in Arabia. So those ?nights of measure? are not the right ones either according to your logic.
My logic is one continuous night that encompasses both northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere. May be the Quran was reveled in the first half of the night (i.e. night in Middle East). Every body gets one night and one dawn.
You say: ?Also, using your logic, the problem is that we don?t find Prophet Muhammad anywhere since he is dead, so there is no night of measure.?
Prophet was not dead at the time he got the revelation (night of destiny). According to your hottest full-moon theory Prophet Muhammad should have been in southern hemisphere. But we know he lived in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, someone else living in southern hemisphere must have gotten the revelation. This contradicts the Quran.
You say: ?How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar.?
Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
You say: ?You mean the Umar calendar standard and not the god?s standard.?
Please read my definition of solar and lunar timing system again to get a clear understanding. Fixing an initial point does not impact the timing in the God?s system. The problem arises with your convoluted timing system.
You say: ?The god orders people to walk the earth and look at the traces left by those before them in passages such as 30:9 and others. Why do you reject 30:9? The conclusions that one reaches based on studying the archeological evidence will depend on the person?s intelligence, objectivity and level of rational thinking and lack of bias. While someone like you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of god (the god be most exalted above what they describe), someone like me wouldn?t.?
You failed to understand the point I was trying to make. But I am not surprised about it. If you ever get it, you will know how awful a job you did. I would never use an approach that would accept Jesus as a son of the God.
You say: ?It is an indisputable fact that had the Umar calendar been made to start three years earlier then you would be fasting Ramadhan in what is now Sha3ban. It is also an indisputable fact that had the manmade order of the months been different then you would be fasting an entirely different month. So for all intents and purposes, sectarians are fasting a 100% arbitrary manmade month.?
I don't have this problem. My timing is not based on man made timing system like yours. This is a problem for you because you are following a timing system that is not authorized by the God.
You say: ?How did you learn Arabic so that you can read the great reading? You learned it from grammar books and dictionaries. Are grammar books and dictionaries and school books your idol? Don?t be a hypocrite. One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently, is aware of their weaknesses and mistakes and validates them against the great reading.?
If I follow your logic ?One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently? then I will have to accept hadith and other man made things.
Talking language is typically learned from mother, friends, elders, and other sources. Then come reading and writing. After this one is ready deal with worldly matter. But when it comes to understanding the Quran one must use the God given instinct (innermost thoughts) to validate the meaning of Quran. Dictionary meanings are usually misleading. The problem here was though as if you are advocating the use of classic Arabic dictionary exclusively. The message I got was from reading your article ?look at the gold mine I found using the dictionary?. You did not provide any warning ?kids don?t try it at home?.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?The restriction is about hunting wild life.?
I am not questioning the hunting restriction rather I am questioning your definition of Ramadan in the first restricted full-moon after the summer solstice. Perhaps you forgot what you have said. Here is what I am questioning:
?So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan") is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual.....?
This theory of yours contradicts Quranic verses and does not pass common sense test. The rationale for my position is provided in the previous post of mine.
I already demonstrated that your previous post has nothing to do with the great reading. You are defending the Umar Calendar using nonsensical arguments such as that the seasons are not determined by the sun and falsely attributing Umar?s calendar to the god.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?Wild life follows the solar cycle, not the lunar one.?
No, they follow neither. They are appreciative of the God and follow the God given instinct. The animals are not aware of man made calendars.
It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMI think you may have missed my definition of solar and lunar timing system in the previous post. Let me define it again for you.
The God's Timing system:
The God's solar cycle = 365.242 days
The God's moon cycle =29.530 days
55:5 - ?The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.?
These are the definition I follow to calculate the twelve months and to perform religious duties. Accordingly, my month = 29.530 days. This is the God's system. Therefore, please don't ask me to deviate from this system.
But you violate your own definition and completely ignore the solar cycle.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMAlso, note that there is no connection between these definition and the seasons.
It is not my problem that you are the only one in the world who ignores that the solar cycle and the seasons are connected.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMHowever, people who try to discredit the God's system would tie the seasons to solar or lunar cycle and say that the God's timing system is wrong because it does not synchronize with the seasons and therefore should be abandoned. Ayman is suggesting that we shun the God's timing system and use the man made timing system in violation of 55:5.
The currently used Islamic calendar is based on the God's moon cycle (29.530 days). Therefore, this is the perfect timing system.
It is not my fault that you ignore the god?s words in 17:12, 55:5, etc. which clearly tell us that we should use the sun AND the moon.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMNow let us look at Ayman timing system:
The man made solar cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (365.242+delta; different days in months e.g. 28, 29, 30, 31, four year day adjustment, etc.)
I never proposed manmade days to sync up anything. The solar cycle is the interval between the solstices as per 17:12. This will always be true and there is no need for any augmented days.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMThe man made moon cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (13 moon nonsense)
I never proposed any "Augmented days". All I said is what is said in 9:36, namely to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons within EVERY SINGLE solar cycle.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMI hope you see the difference between the God's timing system and the man made timing system. Nowhere in the Quran do we find the God telling us to define a season based timing system and to use it for religious purpose.
Again, it is not my problem that you are the only one in the world who ignores that the solar cycle and the seasons are connected.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMInstead this is what the God said:
2:189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, ?They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj, it is ....
There is nothing about determining the number of years in 2:189 so your basis is not the god?s words but Umar.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMThe moon?s phases are parts of 29.530 days. It provides finer counts within a month. It is the natural cycle of the moon that are to be used for counting time and not Ayman's deviated (man made) solar or lunar calendar.
10:5 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate.....
84:18 - And the moon and its phases.
Yes, moon is our timing system and the sun gives us days and nights.
14:33 - He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, continuously... (NOT AUGMENTED MOON CYCLE)
You ignore the sun in 10:5 and that day and night (the solstices) are used to determine the year as per 17:12, while the moon is used to determine the divisions within the solar year as per 9:36, etc. You are blindly following the Umar system.
This is why you will never be able to tell us how you can use the day and night ALONE to determine the number of years as per 17:12.Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?The cycle of wild life is different between the southern and the northern hemispheres. So it is normal that the restriction period would also be different.?
Wildlife cycle is a non-issue. The problem is Ramadan in the restricted periods of South hemisphere and north hemisphere implies two nights of destiny approximately six months apart.
Wildlife is a non-issue for non-believers because per 9:37 non-believers don?t care about violating the god's restriction on hunting wildlife.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?Firstly, it is the night of ?measure? not ?destiny?.?
First you said destiny then you say it is measure. This is a Flip-Flop. What will it be tomorrow?
You sound like George Bush. When cornered logically, you resort to useless noise.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?He also said that the night of measure is PEACEFUL until the rise of daybreak. It is an indisputable reality that there is not a single night of the year where people suddenly stop fighting wars and peace on earth is achieved and criminals don't rob or kill.?
The believers are at peace. The disbelievers are in the hellfire. The God always takes good care of the believers.
So it depends on the person and they would experience this whether they are in the southern or northern hemispheres. This destroys your previous argument.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?Prophet Muhammad wasn?t in America or Morocco or Tokyo. The ?night? in those locations occurs at a different time than in Arabia. So those ?nights of measure? are not the right ones either according to your logic.
My logic is one continuous night that encompasses both northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere. May be the Quran was reveled in the first half of the night (i.e. night in Middle East). Every body gets one night and one dawn.
It is an indisputable fact that not everybody gets the night and dawn at the same time as in Arabia. Your idea about the first half of the night in the Middle East is nothing but conjecture.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?Also, using your logic, the problem is that we don?t find Prophet Muhammad anywhere since he is dead, so there is no night of measure.?
Prophet was not dead at the time he got the revelation (night of destiny). According to your hottest full-moon theory Prophet Muhammad should have been in southern hemisphere. But we know he lived in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, someone else living in southern hemisphere must have gotten the revelation. This contradicts the Quran.
But you said above that experiencing this night depends on the person. You are contradicting yourself again.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar.?
Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
17:12 clearly mentions ONLY the night and day to determine the number of years and there is nothing about half days or the lunar cycle. Also, the lunar year is not exactly 354 days so using this method, eventually your 17:12 year will be out of sync with the lunar cycle. The only way to determine the number of years using ONLY the night and day per 17:12 is to keep looking at night and day and count the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices. This method is self-adjusting and never needs ?augmented days?.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?You mean the Umar calendar standard and not the god?s standard.?
Please read my definition of solar and lunar timing system again to get a clear understanding. Fixing an initial point does not impact the timing in the God?s system. The problem arises with your convoluted timing system.
It is not my problem that you are ignorant of the fact that fixing an initial point DOES impact the timing in your manmade system. It is an indisputable fact that had the initial point been fixed three years earlier then you would be happily fasting a month earlier in what is now Shaaban.
It is also not my problem that you are ignorant of the fact that the manmade order of the months in your manmade system DOES impact the timing. It is another indisputable fact that had the arbitrary order of the months been different then you would be happily fasting a completely different random month.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?The god orders people to walk the earth and look at the traces left by those before them in passages such as 30:9 and others. Why do you reject 30:9? The conclusions that one reaches based on studying the archeological evidence will depend on the person?s intelligence, objectivity and level of rational thinking and lack of bias. While someone like you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of god (the god be most exalted above what they describe), someone like me wouldn?t.?
You failed to understand the point I was trying to make. But I am not surprised about it. If you ever get it, you will know how awful a job you did. I would never use an approach that would accept Jesus as a son of the God.
Ignorant people would reach the wrong conclusion no matter what. Even the great reading can?t help them.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AMYou say: ?It is an indisputable fact that had the Umar calendar been made to start three years earlier then you would be fasting Ramadhan in what is now Sha3ban. It is also an indisputable fact that had the manmade order of the months been different then you would be fasting an entirely different month. So for all intents and purposes, sectarians are fasting a 100% arbitrary manmade month.?
I don't have this problem. My timing is not based on man made timing system like yours. This is a problem for you because you are following a timing system that is not authorized by the God.
Whether you like it or not it is an indisputable fact that you would be fasting in what is now Shaaban had the initial point of the timing been made three years earlier. Had it been made three years later, you would be fasting in what is now Shawwal, etc.
The same thing goes for the manmade arbitrary week. Had the people who made up the seven day week started it a day earlier then what is now Thursday would have been Friday and you would be doing your Friday prayer on what is now Thursday and the Jews would be resting on what is now Friday and the Christians would go to church on what is now Saturday. What is common amongst all those people is that, like you, they follow arbitrary manmade junk and falsely attribute it to the god.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AM
You say: ?How did you learn Arabic so that you can read the great reading? You learned it from grammar books and dictionaries. Are grammar books and dictionaries and school books your idol? Don?t be a hypocrite. One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently, is aware of their weaknesses and mistakes and validates them against the great reading.?
If I follow your logic ?One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently? then I will have to accept hadith and other man made things.
I accept the Hadiths of Bukhari as an indication of the dogmatic discussions going on during the late Abbasid era. I don?t accept them as the Hadiths of the prophet. In fact, when I study Hadiths and see all the inconsistencies and nonsense in them, I appreciate the amazing consistency and logic in the great reading even more. The misguided way of the lost serves as a contrast to the straight path (1:6-7).
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 08:55:57 AM
Talking language is typically learned from mother, friends, elders, and other sources. Then come reading and writing. After this one is ready deal with worldly matter. But when it comes to understanding the Quran one must use the God given instinct (innermost thoughts) to validate the meaning of Quran. Dictionary meanings are usually misleading. The problem here was though as if you are advocating the use of classic Arabic dictionary exclusively. The message I got was from reading your article ?look at the gold mine I found using the dictionary?. You did not provide any warning ?kids don?t try it at home?.
I agree. Please see the disclaimer at the end of the article.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
You say: ?It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.?
In order to bring this matter to proper conclusion, we will have to proceed in little steps.
Step one: Please give me your definition of solar cycle.
Fair warning: I am planning to use it against you. So please be careful and do not rush.
You already have my definition of solar cycle.
We will proceed to step 2 after completing step 1. Thank you.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 11:03:10 AM
Peace Ayman,
You say: ?It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.?
In order to bring this matter to proper conclusion, we will have to proceed in little steps.
Step one: Please give me your definition of solar cycle.
Fair warning: I am planning to use it against you. So please be careful and do not rush.
You already have my definition of solar cycle.
We will proceed to step 2 after completing step 1. Thank you.
The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.
Peace Rev.John,
Quote: ?The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.?
You are correct. However, it is very difficult get this simple point across to some people in this forum. For high level discussion, I accept the scientific data of 29.5 days moon cycle. I don?t even have to do that because I can observe the moon myself if it came to it. That?s what previous generation did. You would think the person who is trying to make a drastic change in Islamic calendar would come equipped with such a simple knowledge. Most people will not accept the fact that Quran is easy to understand.
With this fact ?But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.? And the fact that Earth?s rotation around the sun does NOT synch up with the seasons, destroys Ayman?s hypothesis. Every year the season will drift away just like the moon cycles, except at a much slower pace. To correct this problem, people use different numbers of days in months, the lip year and so on.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 02:59:54 PM
Peace Rev.John,
Quote: ?The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.?
You are correct. However, it is very difficult get this simple point across to some people in this forum. For high level discussion, I accept the scientific data of 29.5 days moon cycle. I don?t even have to do that because I can observe the moon myself if it came to it. That?s what previous generation did. You would think the person who is trying to make a drastic change in Islamic calendar would come equipped with such a simple knowledge. Most people will not accept the fact that Quran is easy to understand.
With this fact ?But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.? And the fact that Earth?s rotation around the sun does NOT synch up with the seasons, destroys Ayman?s hypothesis. Every year the season will drift away just like the moon cycles, except at a much slower pace. To correct this problem, people use different numbers of days in months, the lip year and so on.
This is all true, and with the slowing of the Earth's orbit and rotation and the receding moon it makes it almost impossible to have an accurate clock let alone a calender.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 11:03:10 AMYou say: ?It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.?
In order to bring this matter to proper conclusion, we will have to proceed in little steps.
Step one: Please give me your definition of solar cycle.
It is not my definition. It is the definition according to 17:12. I already gave it to you many times. Here it is one more time, so please read:
The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 11:03:10 AMFair warning: I am planning to use it against you. So please be careful and do not rush.
Take your best shot.
Quote from: guest on July 27, 2009, 11:03:10 AMYou already have my definition of solar cycle.
We will proceed to step 2 after completing step 1. Thank you.
You didn't give any definition. You said it is 365.242 days. This is a result of the definition and not the definition.
Please tell everyone how you found out that the solar cycle is 365.242 days.Peace,
Ayman
Peace Rev.John,
Quote from: Rev.John on July 27, 2009, 11:20:40 AMThe calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.
All calendars are manmade. Cosmic phenomenon are not manmade. The solar cycle is not manmade. The best way to determine the solar cycle is given in 17:12. The solar cycle is basically the interval between summer or winter solstices. The lunar cycle can be used to make divisions within the year by counting exactly 12 full-moons every single solar year (between solstices) and skipping the occasional 13th full-moon. This effortlessly and automatically adjusts the lunar cycle without having to rely on corrupt religeous authorities.
The year is certainly based on the interval between solstices and not based on the lunar cycle. With or without humans, the earth, trees, birds, animals, etc. all follow this solar cycle so it is certainly not manmade. On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Guest is obviously confusing your definition of a solar cycle based on 17:12 with the incorrect manmade solar calendar of 365 days. In other words he is using strawman fallacy and I hope he realizes that. The solar cycle as determined by the interval between summer or winter solstices will NEVER EVER be out of synch with the seasons and counting of only 12 full-moons in a solar cycle will ALWAYS keep the full-moons in synch with the seasons unless the god wills otherwise (i.e. the present cosmic system/universe is destroyed).
Peace Ayman,
You said: ?It is not my definition. It is the definition according to 17:12. I already gave it to you many times. Here it is one more time, so please read:
The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?
This is an obvious lie. Where in verse 17:12 does it say ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?
This is your definition period. Yet in the first sentence of your quote above you say ?It is not my definition?. This is a contradiction (my dear Watson).
Here is Yusuf Ali?s translation of 17:12 - We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail.
Here is R.K. translation: We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.
Where in these translations do we find ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest ?..? Please enlighten us. Thank you. Oh, I get it, it is coming from the classic Arabic dictionary. Is it?
You said: ?You didn't give any definition. You said it is 365.242 days. This is a result of the definition and not the definition. Please tell everyone how you found out that the solar cycle is 365.242 days.?
My definition is the natural cycles of Earth around the sun. Scientific calculation shows one such cycle = 365.242. If you have a better count, please let us know and we will consider it. My confidence in such calculated data comes from these facts - successful landing of spacecraft on comet, predicted solar eclipse, etc. I don?t think your intention is to get into the details of how these calculations are made (e.g. international marking, latitude and longitude orientations, etc.)
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 28, 2009, 08:32:32 AMYou said: ?It is not my definition. It is the definition according to 17:12. I already gave it to you many times. Here it is one more time, so please read:
The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?
This is an obvious lie. Where in verse 17:12 does it say ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.?
This is your definition period. Yet in the first sentence of your quote above you say ?It is not my definition?. This is a contradiction (my dear Watson).
Here is Yusuf Ali?s translation of 17:12 - We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail.
Here is R.K. translation: We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.
Where in these translations do we find ?The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest ?..? Please enlighten us. Thank you. Oh, I get it, it is coming from the classic Arabic dictionary. Is it?
Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 17:12). Quote from: guest on July 28, 2009, 08:32:32 AMYou said: ?You didn't give any definition. You said it is 365.242 days. This is a result of the definition and not the definition. Please tell everyone how you found out that the solar cycle is 365.242 days.?
My definition is the natural cycles of Earth around the sun. Scientific calculation shows one such cycle = 365.242. If you have a better count, please let us know and we will consider it. My confidence in such calculated data comes from these facts - successful landing of spacecraft on comet, predicted solar eclipse, etc. I don?t think your intention is to get into the details of how these calculations are made (e.g. international marking, latitude and longitude orientations, etc.)
Can you please give the "scientific calculation" that shows that a solar cycle is 365.242 days? What is it based on?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
You said: ?On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.?
False statement. Read and heed. We have more examples if you want.
And don?t forget the green house cultivation.
Japan?s cherry blossom season arrives early
Japan?s celebrated cherry blossom season has begun nearly two weeks earlier than usual this year in a number of cities across western Japan, according to a Cherry Blossom Report released by the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA) yesterday.
The picture did not paste. http://www.japantravelinfo.com/news/news_item.php?newsid=147
Peace Ayman,
Quote: "Can you please give the "scientific calculation" that shows that a solar cycle is 365.242 days? What is it based on?"
You may find these two articles very informative.
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/seri/JRASC/0080/0000134.000.html
http://daphne.palomar.edu/jthorngren/tutorial.htm
:D
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 28, 2009, 08:58:28 AMYou said: ?On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.?
False statement. Read and heed. We have more examples if you want.
And don?t forget the green house cultivation.
Japan?s cherry blossom season arrives early
Japan?s celebrated cherry blossom season has begun nearly two weeks earlier than usual this year in a number of cities across western Japan, according to a Cherry Blossom Report released by the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA) yesterday.
The picture did not paste. http://www.japantravelinfo.com/news/news_item.php?newsid=147
The above desperate attempt that is not even close shows that you have nothing and that you are a bluffing liar when you say that you have more examples if I want. What I want from you is instead of mindlessly copying and pasting irrelevant links just show us ONE animal, plant or bird that does anything earlier by 11 days EVERY year.
Quote from: guest on July 28, 2009, 09:59:14 AMQuote: "Can you please give the "scientific calculation" that shows that a solar cycle is 365.242 days? What is it based on?"
You may find these two articles very informative.
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/seri/JRASC/0080/0000134.000.html
http://daphne.palomar.edu/jthorngren/tutorial.htm
Any idiot can copy and paste links. Instead of evasiveness, please answer the simple question that I asked you. If you think that the answer is in those links then please tell everyone what the answer is.
Also, instead of wasting time in parading your ignorance on this forum, please answer the following question or at least have some honesty and courage and admit that you don?t know the answer or that my answer is the ONLY possible answer. Here it is again in case you still can't read it:
Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 17:12). Peace,
Ayman
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on July 28, 2009, 01:30:46 AMGuest is obviously confusing your definition of a solar cycle based on 17:12 with the incorrect manmade solar calendar of 365 days. In other words he is using strawman fallacy and I hope he realizes that. The solar cycle as determined by the interval between summer or winter solstices will NEVER EVER be out of synch with the seasons and counting of only 12 full-moons in a solar cycle will ALWAYS keep the full-moons in synch with the seasons unless the god wills otherwise (i.e. the present cosmic system/universe is destroyed).
Exactly, it is a self-adjusting natural system that doesn't rely on any manmade arbitrary calendar starting points or order of the months.
Notice that Guest (like everyone else who defends the sectarian calendar) couldn't refute the indisputable fact that his useless Umar calendar is 100% arbitrary.
Peace,
Ayman
The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months do not correlate directly to months on the Greyogian calender.The Islamic moths in order,are: " muHaaram, Safar, rabiix al 'awwal, rabiix ath-thaanii, jumaadal-'awwal, jumaada th-thaanii, rajab, shaxbaan, ramaDaan, shawwaal, dhuu l-qaaxida, dhuu l-Hijja. The ninth month , " RamaDaan", has been made well known. Many newscasts will include the date in both the Gregum and the Islamic calender.
The Lunar calendar is based on a Lunar cycle, and therefor does not overlap with the gregrorian calender. The Lunar calender is widly used in religious circles and in religious contex in the Middle east. It is also important to gain exposure to the Islamc and Lunar calender, ,as some countrys such as Sadi Arabia, use them exclusivly. The Lunar calendar, like the Islamic calender, is shorter than the gregreoran calender. It is used primarily by Islamic scolars to determine holy months and days, such as the start and end of fasting during the month of Rahmadaan.
Quote from: anthonywallace on July 29, 2009, 10:15:23 AM
The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months do not correlate directly to months on the Greyogian calender.The Islamic moths in order,are: " muHaaram, Safar, rabiix al 'awwal, rabiix ath-thaanii, jumaadal-'awwal, jumaada th-thaanii, rajab, shaxbaan, ramaDaan, shawwaal, dhuu l-qaaxida, dhuu l-Hijja. The ninth month , " RamaDaan", has been made well known. Many newscasts will include the date in both the Gregum and the Islamic calender.
The Lunar calendar is based on a Lunar cycle, and therefor does not overlap with the gregrorian calender. The Lunar calender is widly used in religious circles and in religious contex in the Middle east. It is also important to gain exposure to the Islamc and Lunar calender, ,as some countrys such as Sadi Arabia, use them exclusivly. The Lunar calendar, like the Islamic calender, is shorter than the gregreoran calender. It is used primarily by Islamic scolars to determine holy months and days, such as the start and end of fasting during the month of Rahmadaan.
I never knew that you are a SHEIKH. :)
Quote from: afridi220 on July 29, 2009, 10:20:16 AM
I never knew that you are a SHEIKH. :)
And what is a sheikh?
Peace Ayman,
You say: ?Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 17:12).?
I have already given you the answer in one of my previous post addressed to you (Reply #928 on: July 27, 2009, 01:55:57 PM). Here it is again:
Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
The earth takes 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) to make a full revolution around the sun.
The Quran says there are 12 Months.
Now, you tell me the length of each month according to your definition?
Are you rushing to the classic Arabic dictionary for an answer. Don?t worry if there isn?t one, just make one up.
The example of small spacecraft landing on comet was given to demonstrate the accuracy of orbital calculation. The spacecraft orbit needs to be precisely calculated to collide with calculated orbital path of the comet. This was successful and that is extraordinary accomplishment. The take way from this is: do not question the 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) cycle. I knew you wouldn?t get it. Why are you dealing with such a subject when you don?t even have the knowledge? It is like a blind performing brain surgery.
People like those who landed the spacecraft on the comet are trying to devise an accurate solar calendar for centuries without a success. It is a difficult job. You claim to have the solution. Why don?t you show us the reference point that you use for calculating your solar cycle. And remember you have constrain yourself to the units of day and night (nothing smaller). For example, if you say your start point is July 4 at certain earth position, you need to start the next cycle from the same position. No shifting reference allowed. How did the previous generation followed your approach? Don?t leave the solution to human observation. This will lead to other serious problems. Can you figure them out?
Your approach violates ?Quran is easy to understand? and ? religious duties are not meant to be a hardship on us? and many other Quranic verses.
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AM
Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
Salaam,
What is your starting point?
You made your end point clear (after 354 days), but where/when do you start the count from?
This is what is lacking in your definition.
Your decision to start your count is a manmade arbitrary decision and has nothing to do with the solar and/or lunar cycles. The count of the calender you are following started at a particular time. Am I right or wrong in saying that had that count started a year later, you would be waiting another 11 days to begin your fasting this year?
Or is there something divine about the time your calender started? And thus there is no questioning the authenticity of the 'start of count'?
Regards
Ramzi
Peace Ramzi,
If you read the previous posts of me on this thread then you would have known what is going on.
Quote: ?What is your starting point??
My calendar is based on lunar cycle.
Therefore, 1 month = 1 lunar cycle = 29.5 days
Quran says we have 12 months. Hence, my year is 12 lunar cycle = 354 days. I can use solar days to count 354 days.
This is God given system and I don?t have the 11 days problem.
The 11 day problem comes in when one use the solar cycle (365.2xxx days) to count year. Great minds of the world over the centuries have tried to implement an accurate solar based calendar but failed. This is indeed very hard problem to solve because it is a man made system. Therefore, there will always be error associate with this man made system. The length of months in this system has to be man made as well. Use of such system for religion purpose is contrary to Quranic verses. No such problem exists with the lunar system. It is very easy timing system coming from the Quran that is very easy to understand.
With the solar based timing system the reference will not be the same for the next cycle. You have shifting reference problem. Leap year and months of different lengths are used to compensate the error. And there is no verse in the Quran that says our timing system has to be in synch with the seasons. This is strictly a non religious problem and therefore the solution is man made and inaccurate.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AMYou say: ?Please tell everyone how you can determine the number of years using day and night (not spacecrafts or other things not mentioned in 17:12).?
I have already given you the answer in one of my previous post addressed to you (Reply #928 on: July 27, 2009, 01:55:57 PM). Here it is again:
You are either a liar or you can't read. What you have given is not the answer to my question.
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AMHere is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
17:12 ONLY talks about using the day and night to determine the number of years. Your answer is not the answer to how one can use ONLY the day and night to determine the number of years. What you are saying is a bunch of idiotic nonsense that nobody ever did to know the number of years either in the lunar or solar cycles.
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AMThe earth takes 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) to make a full revolution around the sun.
How do you know that using 17:12? Please don't mindlessly copy and paste links and give us a straight answer or admit that you don't know this basic knowledge.
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AMThe Quran says there are 12 Months.
Now, you tell me the length of each month according to your definition?
The word "month" is never mentioned in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon".
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AMThe example of small spacecraft landing on comet was given to demonstrate the accuracy of orbital calculation. The spacecraft orbit needs to be precisely calculated to collide with calculated orbital path of the comet. This was successful and that is extraordinary accomplishment. The take way from this is: do not question the 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds (365.242199 days) cycle. I knew you wouldn?t get it. Why are you dealing with such a subject when you don?t even have the knowledge? It is like a blind performing brain surgery.
This is like talking to a 5 year old boy who is fascinated with spacecrafts and comets but is clueless about basic knoweldge.
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 11:15:38 AMPeople like those who landed the spacecraft on the comet are trying to devise an accurate solar calendar for centuries without a success. It is a difficult job. You claim to have the solution. Why don?t you show us the reference point that you use for calculating your solar cycle. And remember you have constrain yourself to the units of day and night (nothing smaller). For example, if you say your start point is July 4 at certain earth position, you need to start the next cycle from the same position. No shifting reference allowed. How did the previous generation followed your approach? Don?t leave the solution to human observation. This will lead to other serious problems. Can you figure them out?
Your approach violates ?Quran is easy to understand? and ? religious duties are not meant to be a hardship on us? and many other Quranic verses.
It is not my solar cycle but since you gave me that honor then "my solar cycle" based on 17:12 ALWAYS starts from the same exact position every single year and there is no shifting reference.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: guest on July 29, 2009, 04:25:25 PM
Peace Ramzi,
If you read the previous posts of me on this thread then you would have known what is going on.
Quote: ?What is your starting point??
My calendar is based on lunar cycle.
Therefore, 1 month = 1 lunar cycle = 29.5 days
Quran says we have 12 months. Hence, my year is 12 lunar cycle = 354 days. I can use solar days to count 354 days.
This is God given system and I don?t have the 11 days problem.
Salaam and thanks for replying,
You assume I hadn't read any of your posts and you rush to regurgitate your statement again. I had read all your posts and decided to ask you the simple question which you did not answer.
My question: What is your starting point?
Your answer: My calender is based on lunar cycle, therefore 1 month....
I understand your definition, so there is no need to repeat it. What I am saying is that your definition lacks a starting point? What is your starting point for this 'year' you have defined in so many of your posts?
The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.
---------------------------------------
Let me repeat my question in another way:
You say: " I can use solar days to count 354 days"
OK, and when do you start this count of 354 days?
Do you agree that this 'start' is an arbitrary manmade decision?
Regards
Ramzi
Peace Brothers and Sisters
Ramzi I congratulate you on a wonderful question. Its amazing that counting the moon cycles we need a reference point e.g. month 1 the month of Ramadan for example, when the Quran was sent down would have been a wonderful help. The only thing is that if we knew what season this happened we can probably vaguely pin point a reference point or if records where taken we would not be arguing now. However, as the lunar cycle is not connected to the seasons then we can possibly guess month 1 and start from that point on and count month 1, 2, 3 etc etc. Now I am not going to dispute with anyone here about if the lunar or solar or even the lunisolar is the correct system as my knowledge is limited in this area and I feel I need more study and understanding. However, I feel this debate is not moving on for many reasons:
1. People are not open minded to seek the truth, what ever that truth maybe.
2. They are stuck with their ideologies and wont be shifted what ever the cost.
So answering Ramzi's question in a truthful way and back up with evidence will help this debate move on what ever the truth may be.
An example, when my grandfather was born no one actually recorded the date as they used to follow a lunar calander back in the isolated villages or the country for that matter. However, later the government required a surname and a proper record of everyones DOB. People did not have surnames back then, they were known by either their fathers nickname or first name. My grandfathers mother knew that he was born in a cold month so she picked a rough date that correlated to a particular month and said thats the one. Also she had to give a year, she obviously did not know and gave a random date which probably was out by 1 to 3 years. My point; to know when to celebrate something or count the years etc we need a start date e.g. month or day 1 or even zero. Otherwise picking a random date as a reference point and then trying to connect every other event to it is at the least out of sink. As a result, unless someone can say the lunar cycles started record from month zero and counted to this day is in sink then I really see no debate and we should go with it. However, if no one can come up with this start date then a reason should be given why they started at another date to call month zero.
Lets not blindly follow and look to search for the truth what ever it maybe. May God help us in our search and help us establish the correct system.
Peace
Hope
Peace everyone,
Quote from: guestFurther, if we apply your definition ?The full moon of scorching heat?, we find that the scorching full moon of the southern hemisphere around January time-frame (perihelion) satisfies the definition. At this time the Earth is closest to the sun unlike the northern hemisphere aphelion (July 4). The problem is we don?t find Prophet Muhammad in the southern hemisphere. Hence, your theory proves that Quran was not reveled to Prophet Muhammad which in turns implies that the God is a liar. And that is not true. Therefore, your theory must be false.
The above in red is another lie by guest, therefore his conclusion is erroneous.
The changing of the seasons and the temperatures is due to the tilt of the Earth's axis,
not its varying proximity to the sun.
Let's take a point in northern hemisphere which is at latitude 34 N, for example Los Angeles, USA. Let's take a point in southern hemisphere at the corresponding latitude of 34 S, for example Sydney, Australia. Now let's compare the average temperatures for the scorching full-moon after the summer solstice:
Los Angeles July average temperatures (around aphelion):
82-85 degrees Fahrenheit
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCQT/2009/7/30/MonthlyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Sydney January average temperatures (around perihelion):
77-78 degrees Fahrenheit
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/YSSY/2009/1/30/MonthlyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Clearly the scorching full-moon of northern hemisphere occurs at a hotter temperature in July than the scorching full-moon of southern hemisphere in January despite the earth being closer to the sun in January.
Peace Ramzi,
You say: ?You assume I hadn't read any of your posts and you rush to regurgitate your statement again. I had read all your posts and decided to ask you the simple question which you did not answer.?
This is my mistake and I am sorry about that.
You say: ?What I am saying is that your definition lacks a starting point? What is your starting point for this 'year' you have defined in so many of your posts??
Starting point is irrelevant to me because in my reference frame it is independent religious duties. However, collectively we can agree on a starting point to deal with worldly matter. That is what Umar did. He did a good thing in my opinion. If you don?t like his start point then start your own calendar from the next new moon. After 12 moon cycles you will have a year. My fasting month of Ramadan is still the same in this new calendar. However, if you are analyzing this from another reference frame (e.g. solar based calendar) then you will run into issue of 11 days short per year and pose question like this ?The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.? Please be consistent in your analysis.
Peace truthseeker11,
Quote: ?The changing of the seasons and the temperatures is due to the tilt of the Earth's axis, not its varying proximity to the sun.?
What a revelation. What took you so long to say it?
The perihelion distance is 91,445,000 miles and aphelion distance is 94,555,000. That is a difference of 3.11 million miles. It equates to about 5% more sunlight than NH summer. The interior land of Australian will have tremendous effect due the extra sun light.
By quoting average temperature you are not helping your buddy Ayman. He is talking about full moon of burning heat (single to a few days at most), not an average over many days.
According to data collected by the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA?s Aqua satellite: Queensland, Australia, was the hottest place on Earth, with a temperature of 69.3 degrees C (157 degrees F). Please click the below link for details. The inland portion of Australia is very hot indeed.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7149
Additional temperate data from different source:
Marble Bar in Western Australia. For 161 consecutive days to 20 April 1924 the temperature in the town never dropped below 100?F (37.8?C).
However, the town of Cloncurry in northwest Queensland holds the record for the highest temperature in the shade ever recorded in Australia, at 53.1 ?C (127.5 ?F) on 16 January 1889.
Peace Ayman,
Quote: ?How do you know that using 17:12? Please don't mindlessly copy and paste links and give us a straight answer or admit that you don't know this basic knowledge.?
Common sense and some measurement techniques is all you need to measure the 365.24xx cycle. The same techniques allowed us (human) to land spacecraft on comet. Do you get it?
Quote: ?The word "month" is never mentioned in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon".?
See verse 9:36 - The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
Quote: ??..ALWAYS starts from the same exact position every single year and there is no shifting reference.?
Just show us how you fit subsequence 365.24xx cycle within your reference point without an error factor. You will become a famous man if you can do this.
It is not the length of the cycle I am questioning; it is the man made implementation of calendar using the said solar cycle. It is indeed a very hard problem. Don?t you get it, if the God wanted us to do this then he would have made the job easy for us. Just like the lunar calendar.
Peace everyone,
Quote from: guest on July 30, 2009, 03:40:21 PM
The perihelion distance is 91,445,000 miles and aphelion distance is 94,555,000. That is a difference of 3.11 million miles. It equates to about 5% more sunlight than NH summer. The interior land of Australian will have tremendous effect due the extra sun light.
By quoting average temperature you are not helping your buddy Ayman. He is talking about full moon of burning heat (single to a few days at most), not an average over many days.
According to data collected by the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA?s Aqua satellite: Queensland, Australia, was the hottest place on Earth, with a temperature of 69.3 degrees C (157 degrees F). Please click the below link for details. The inland portion of Australia is very hot indeed.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7149
Additional temperate data from different source:
Marble Bar in Western Australia. For 161 consecutive days to 20 April 1924 the temperature in the town never dropped below 100?F (37.8?C).
However, the town of Cloncurry in northwest Queensland holds the record for the highest temperature in the shade ever recorded in Australia, at 53.1 ?C (127.5 ?F) on 16 January 1889.
Guest has lost all credibility. What a bunch of lies and deception from him. Unbelievable.
FROM HIS OWN REFERENCED ARTICLE:
"Where is the hottest place on Earth? According to MODIS, the hottest place in 2004 and 2005 was the Lut desert of Iran, which reached 70.7 degrees C (159 degrees F). In 2003, Queensland, Australia, was the hottest place on Earth, with a temperature of 69.3 degrees C (157 degrees F)."NOTE HOW HE HID THE BOLDED PART FROM OTHERS IN HIS POST.
Where is the Lut desert of Iran? NORTHERN HEMISPHERESome more references:
1. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MichaelLevin.shtml
From the above:
"Between 1960 and 1966, the highest average annual mean temperature in Dallol, Ethiopia was recorded at 94 ?F"Where is Ethiopia? NORTHERN HEMISPHERE"The hottest recorded temperature ever on earth was in Libya on September 13, 1922, which was 58 ?C"Where is Libya? NORTHERN HEMISPHERE2. http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/scienceques2001/20020524.htm
From the above:
"Even thought the Sun's ray are most direct and closest to being overhead in the sub tropics at noon near the time of the solstice, it takes a while for the land, oceans and atmosphere to heat up. The Earth is about 3% closer to the Sun in December than in June, but since there's so much more water in the Southern Hemisphere, things don't usually heat up as quickly and to the same degree as in the Northern Hemisphere.""hottest temperature ever recorded anywhere on the globe (136 F at Al' Aziziyah, Libya in September of 1922) occurred well before global warming was a buzzword, and despite the recent series of warm years, globally, these records have not seriously threatened."3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weather_records
From the great reading:
49:6 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Peace
Starting point is irrelevant to me because in my reference frame it is independent religious duties. However, collectively we can agree on a starting point to deal with worldly matter. That is what Umar did. He did a good thing in my opinion. If you don?t like his start point then start your own calendar from the next new moon. After 12 moon cycles you will have a year. My fasting month of Ramadan is still the same in this new calendar. However, if you are analyzing this from another reference frame (e.g. solar based calendar) then you will run into issue of 11 days short per year and pose question like this ?The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.? Please be consistent in your analysis.
You say a starting point is irrelevant. I would say it is very relevant. Let me put it in another way, who gave Umar authority to change the calander system? Did the count of the year begin with Hijra of the Prophet? Why? Was there a system used in the Prophets time? Why was it changed by Umar? To me its very arbitrary dates that have been selected based on specific historic events.
Some fact I found (correct me if I am wrong please):
1. lunar calendar by 'Umar in 639 CE
2. DEATH OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh), 632 CE
3. 7 years after the prophet had past away we change a system which is widely accepted by the muslims of the day.
Unfortunatly, many people of the day did not benefit from the free speech we have today. I wonder if they did, then questions might have been asked. But I bet they would have been squashed if they did question the system!?
The question still begs to be answered: Why the need for change? Why did the Prophet not make this change before his death? Have we been mislead by the devil?
Peace
Hope
Peace
Sorry its me again, just read this on a webpage:
Forbidding Intercalary Months
In the ninth year after the Hijra, Allah revealed the prohibition of the intercalary month. This is expressed in the Qur'an (9:36-37):
The number of months with Allah has been twelve months by Allah's ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Of these four are known as sacred; That is the straight usage, so do not wrong yourselves therein, and fight those who go astray.
This prohibition was repeated by prophet Muhammad during his last sermon on Mount Arafat which was delivered during his farewell pilgrimage to Mecca on 9 Dhu al-Hijja AH 10. The three successive holy months mentioned by prophet Muhammad are Dhu al-Qada, Dhu al-Hijja, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single holy month is Rajab.
http://www.thinkersforum.org/The_Muslim_Lunar_Calendar_-_Overview.php
Can someone shed light on this? Is this true? If it is then many of our questions are answered.
Peace
Hope
Dear guest ,
I am quoting one of my old posts , kindly go through it, I am sure it would help .
siki
Quote from: siki on September 25, 2008, 02:30:44 PM
:handshake:
:! lets assume for a while that >:D "Aliens abduct you, and take you to planet X ;D . There you lose all track of earth time. One day they decide to dump you back. You splash down, manage to swim out to a small deserted island with no one around.
You wanted to keep track of time , and most probably this is how you ended up doing.
You remembered God's words in his book for keeping time, and hence started to count days with the help of sun rise and set. You counted 30 days but then your month started from the day you arrived back on the planet. The only way to synchronise it with the rest of the mankind was, to take refernce of the moon. So you reset your count and started counting months with the help of moon. To begin with, for a strange reason you chose the waxing cresent which followed the sun and was barely visible in the refracting light of the setting sun (By the way the wanning cresent is much more distinct, because it is at dawn, and is opposite to the rising sun) You counted "12" as per God's commandment, for a year and then restarted , but then your year was not synchronised with the rest of the world. This method started your year when you arrived back on the planet (plus up to 28 days)
Over a period of a few years you noticed, that in your count of 12, once there was a full Moon, which was so distinct in colour that you couldn't miss it, and hence you reset your year count with the help of this Orange full moon.
As you started to count the year from this bright marker , your month count automatically began to start with Full Moon, and so was every month from then on. Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.
(because in certain months you missed it and ended up having a count of 29 or sometimes 30-31 days, and every other month you had overcast and hence had no idea weather to start recounting or not whereas the bright full moon could still be noticed even in cloudy days when it started to rise soon afer sun set)
I sincerly hope that you realize the difference.
peace
siki
[/size]
@ siki:
1. what of I landed in August? I would have to wait for nearly a year to re-synchronize my calendar/time.
2. I'd ask others in the first place or browse the i-net.
Another point I would like to make: the 'fullmoon of scorching heat advoctors' always attack the traditionalists' approach of measuring time/counting months, etc. which is the sighting of the new moon. There is no need and place for that in God's system. We already know the timings of future lunar months through calculation and not sighting. So the whole attacking of the sighting of the moon is OK, but it isnt a valid arguement against the lunar calendar approach/advocators.
Peace
Peace hope4,
Quote: ?who gave Umar authority to change the calander system??
This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."
Umar could not have change the length of the lunar cycle. Therefore, he did not change timing system. He used the same timing system as prophet Muhammad did. The only thing he possibly did (w.r.t. timing) was to start the Muslim calendar from hijra. There is nothing wrong with this.
Quote: ?Why was it changed by Umar??
Another baseless accusation. Should this be the behavior of a righteous person?
You have to think a moment and realize that fixing an initial point does not change the length of lunar cycle. Timing system will change if someone can change the length of lunar cycle.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 30, 2009, 11:40:42 AMYou say: ?What I am saying is that your definition lacks a starting point? What is your starting point for this 'year' you have defined in so many of your posts??
Starting point is irrelevant to me because in my reference frame it is independent religious duties. However, collectively we can agree on a starting point to deal with worldly matter. That is what Umar did. He did a good thing in my opinion. If you don?t like his start point then start your own calendar from the next new moon. After 12 moon cycles you will have a year. My fasting month of Ramadan is still the same in this new calendar. However, if you are analyzing this from another reference frame (e.g. solar based calendar) then you will run into issue of 11 days short per year and pose question like this ?The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.? Please be consistent in your analysis.
Your arbitrary starting point and the order of your months is what will determine when your arbitrary Ramadhan occurs. If today is the crescent moon and you start your new year today and you conjecture that Ramadhan is the 9th month in your calendar then your Ramadhan will be 9 lunar months from today. If you start your calendar the next creascent then it will be 10 lunar months from today. If you started your calendar last crescent moon then your Ramadhan would be 8 lunar months from today, etc.
Also, the arbitrary order of months in your calendar will determine when Ramadhan occurs. So if Ramadhan was your third month then you would fast three months from today and so on. So whether you like it or not, your lunar calendar is 100% arbitrary. I am sure that anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see this indisputable fact. So it doesn't help your credibility when you keep arguing about such indisputable fact. People are going to think that either you are wasting everyone's time by playing dumb or, well, you are not playing.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 30, 2009, 04:07:27 PMQuote: ?How do you know that using 17:12? Please don't mindlessly copy and paste links and give us a straight answer or admit that you don't know this basic knowledge.?
Common sense and some measurement techniques is all you need to measure the 365.24xx cycle. The same techniques allowed us (human) to land spacecraft on comet. Do you get it?
No, I don't get it. Please excuse my ignorance and show us your incredible intelligence by telling us this commone sense and measurement techniques that allows you to know this using 17:12.
Quote from: guest on July 30, 2009, 04:07:27 PMQuote: ?The word "month" is never mentioned in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon".?
See verse 9:36 - The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
Oc course the parts in underline and bold in your translation are contradictory.
See verse 9:36 - The count of full-moons, as far as the god is concerned, is twelve. This has been the god's law, since the day he created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are restricted. This is the worthy obligation; you shall not wrong your souls (by violating the restriction) therein and fight those who set partners like they fight you, and know that the god is on the side of the righteous.
Quote from: guest on July 30, 2009, 04:07:27 PMQuote: ??..ALWAYS starts from the same exact position every single year and there is no shifting reference.?
Just show us how you fit subsequence 365.24xx cycle within your reference point without an error factor. You will become a famous man if you can do this.
It is not the length of the cycle I am questioning; it is the man made implementation of calendar using the said solar cycle. It is indeed a very hard problem. Don?t you get it, if the God wanted us to do this then he would have made the job easy for us. Just like the lunar calendar.
You do it using the perfect system given to us by the god in 17:12. You use the day and night as you are clearly told in 17:12. The year is the interval between the longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night. This system is a self-adjusting system that doesn't require any adjustment. I guess I am now a famous person. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace truthseeker11,
Quote: ?NOTE HOW HE HID THE BOLDED PART FROM OTHERS IN HIS POST.?
Do you really think before you provide a response? If I wanted to hide the bolder part then I wouldn?t have given you the reference. I was refuting your average temperature claim between LA and Australia. The temperature coded color of Australia nullifies your claim.
Don?t forget Ayman?s theory requires the hottest temperature coincide with the full-moon. Arbitrary hot day is of no use. This is another serious flaw with Ayman?s concept i.e. heavy rain prior to the full-moon will reduce the temperature significantly which means you will have wait for another full moon with hotter temperature. It is also location dependent. And the problem goes on and on.
Quote: ?The Earth is about 3% closer to the Sun in December than in June, but since there's so much more water in the Southern Hemisphere, things don't usually heat up as quickly and to the same degree as in the Northern Hemisphere."?
Again you proved that you are not thinking properly or are incapable of doing so. You are quoting an average generalized situation to mislead people. You failed to understand the rationale behind my saying that ?Interior portion of Australia?? This means the land will heat up rather quickly as it is far removed from the water. The water impact is negligible in certain region of Australia.
Peace Ayman,
Qoute: ???and the order of your months is what will determine when your arbitrary Ramadhan occurs.?
Why would I change the order of the months that Prophet Muhammad used? The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that.
Quote: ?.. new year today and you conjecture that Ramadhan is the 9th month in your calendar then your Ramadhan will be 9 lunar months from today?
You think people are that dumb. What kind of mind and education do you have? I think it is something you would do though. If I am starting a new calendar from next new moon, I will call my first month Ramadan and by default it will become my new year.
Another extreme situation is this: If a powerful disbelieving system takes over and change the calendar and order of the months, I will re-synch the new months with the known Ramadan month and continue my religious duties. It is easy (Elementary my dear Watson).
Peace Ayman,
Quote: ?No, I don't get it. Please excuse my ignorance and show us your incredible intelligence by telling us this commone sense and measurement techniques that allows you to know this using 17:12.?
First, you give me the length of your solar cycle. This way you will not be able to take different position after the fact. The solar cycle I use is 365.2xxx. Why are you not dividing yours?
Quote: ?Oc course the parts in underline and bold in your translation are contradictory.?
Contradictory, says who? Are you the authority who decides what is right from wrong? You have too big an ego to be thinking that everything you do or say is correct. You must think you are infallible. Your faulty posts prove otherwise.
Quote: ?The year is the interval between the longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night. This system is a self-adjusting system that doesn't require any adjustment. I guess I am now a famous person.?
You are not famous yet. It is just a claim now. You have to put it in practice and show that it works. You can start by giving us the number of days between the ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night?. These days has to equate to the God given solar cycle.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 10:15:18 AM
You can start by giving us the number of days between the “longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night”. These days has to equate to the God given solar cycle.
lol,
Why? Is the time between longest/shortest day/night not God given?
Peace siki,
Quote: ?Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.?
And how do you make distinction between:
- moon of day before the full-moon
- Full-moon
- Moon of day after the full-moon
Without the use of a telescope or a binocular.
I am assuming that this stranded person does not have quartz base Rolex watch on him.
Peace ramzi,
I don?t understand the question "Why? Is the time between longest/shortest day/night not God given?"
However, if you meant ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night? then the answer is this:
The count of days is man made and it is subject to an error. Is it 365 days or 365.2xx days? The fraction of the day is part of the solar cycle and has to be taken into account. But Ayman?s system does not allow that because he chose the unit?s to be day and night. Therefore, Ayman?s timing system is not in synch with the God given solar cycle. Additionally, Ayman?s system will drift with seasons, like lunar based time system, caused by neglecting the fraction of a day in the God give solar cycle.
Peace Guest
I think you have misunderstood me when I said he (Umar) has changed the system. I did not suggest that the lunar cycles were changed or their lengths. I ment the calendar in use. Questions I set are not because I have knowledge or evidence that I can produce or that I am trying to change anyones mind but to understand historic events of how it was and what changed us through out the years. I am assuming it was for these very reasons that muslims divided into secs as they could not agree on particular things.
Also, If you see my second post just after the one you decided to answer you can see I have been trying to read and understand what is going on. I also placed a source of reference of what I was reading.
So let me conclude what I understand so far (I am not saying I am right, just stating my understanding of what I have been reading).
1. Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
2. One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read:
9:36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book
of God the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of
them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong
yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they
fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
3. Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.
4. Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.
We are all in search for the truth Guest and I am no different to you or anyone on this site. When I ask questions its because I want to gain different points of view and search my heart for the one that I feel is right.
Further more, Quote: This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."
Why would you say something like that? All I did was ask a question. It would have been better to use less agression in your post by simply saying I really dont know why, than trying to get me to wish something on myself so terrible as your quote. You must understand I am not attacking anyone in any of my posts, and if it seemed that way to you then appologies. You must understand I have many years to catch up on my islamic knowledge, so from time to time it may seem I am asking obvious questions but you must excuse that and be patient.
May God lead us all in the right path
Peace
Hope
Peace all --
Quote from: hope4 on July 31, 2009, 01:00:14 PM
1. Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
How do you know this?
Quote2. One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read:
How do you know which was first and which was last or which parts where first and which parts where last?
Quote3. Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.
How do you know this?
Quote4. Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.
How do you know this? Umar ruled on a number of things including stoning, how to distribute inheritance and interpreted much of the book according to whatever ideas popped in his head or in the minds of people after him according to whatever opinions they had -- attribute it to whoever back in the day give it legitimacy.
Further more, Quote: This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."
Sounds like someone being accused of adultery; no need for that we're only talking...lol
I'm of the opinion starting point is time = 0 the beginning...
Use "DOC" new moon crescent "D" full moon "O" end cycle "C" then restart count.
If using full moon there is a 7 day period of uncertainty as to moon phase.
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=8/2009
begin month/year 1
ramadan 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708
ramadan 365.242199 begin year 2
Perhaps take difference (lunar - solstice) calculate where we are at currently in the cycle.
The other thing is it may be the same with how to exactly pray; really doesn't matter, start anywhere in the cycle -- not much difference between time slices and what matters is the current moment the only reality.
Peace
Peace Eid Abdullah
1. Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
How do you know this?
Quote
2. One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read:
How do you know which was first and which was last or which parts where first and which parts where last?
Quote
3. Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.
How do you know this?
Quote
4. Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.
How do you know this? Umar ruled on a number of things including stoning, how to distribute inheritance and interpreted much of the book according to whatever ideas popped in his head or in the minds of people after him according to whatever opinions they had -- attribute it to whoever back in the day give it legitimacy.
My reply is I dont really know. The summary I gave was a summary after reading a few internet sites. I am hoping that people like you will respond with your views and possibly let us know what really happened and if possible provide some evidence or suggested reading. Thank you for your reply.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 10:57:26 AM
Peace siki,
Quote: ?Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.?
And how do you make distinction between:
- moon of day before the full-moon
- Full-moon
- Moon of day after the full-moon
Without the use of a telescope or a binocular.
I am assuming that this stranded person does not have quartz base Rolex watch on him.
Any time you find a full kinda moon while the sun has still not set, ignore it, look for it the next day, till,
you find first full moon which rises after the sun set,that is the one (shahar)
siki
peace.
This might help a few, in understanding the problem , and God's solution.
1. In God's system , there is nothing like a week, hour or a minute, because there is no natural marker to count that from. God counts in days, because we have sun rise and set for calculation.
2. Then the next bigger unit can be a time period between two consecutive natural visible markers , that could be a period between two similar shape moons, either crescents (hilal), half moons (badars), or full moons (shahar)
There are significantly more chances of an error if we take shapes other than the full moon for counting this period.
But if we take the full moon (rounded shape) which rises soon after the sun set (the first one)to start our count, we cant miss it. That is what Quran calls as Shahar.
3. However we can not call the period between the two shahars as month(neither does the quran) because that is not always fixed, it would be 29, or some time 30 units.
4. The next important unit (in human life) is a year (around which the life exists, and gets synchronised) shortest day to a shortest day , or longest day to the next longest day. We could take any for starting a year. But then how could a human precisely calculate ( back then ) without the help of a man made device?
5. God selected another marker which came once yearly, after the longest day , shahar ramadhan, The Full moon in scorching heat, which had a different color shade to it , orangish yellow, rather than yellowish white.
(if you can distingusish the color shade difference between a normal tungeston bulb and a tube light, or a mercury bulb, that is precisely the color difference)
6. As the year could not be divided in equal monthly units, with the help of this marker, so we do not have a God's month, but Shahars to approximate an intermediate unit, ( between a year and a day)
7. We count shahars, and we count only 12 as per his instructions , because every three years we will find one extra between two shahars of Ramadhan. We will not count that , that is how the life around earth will be in sync with life governing/sustaining Marker, :sun: The sun.
In my opinion this is how God wants us to keep track of time, when He says, "I have given you sun and the moon to calculate"
siki
Peace brothers and sister. I am new here (and new to Islam) and am getting ready to observe Ramadan for the first time. My friends are Sunni and tell me that the actual time of Ramadan is for 30 days (one can continue to fast an extra 10 days for some reason if they choose) and that it actually moves during the year because of the Islamic calender vs. the majority 365 day/year calender. I have read the posts in this thread and understand the scientific and Quranic evidence but yet no one has actually said when Ramadan should be or for how long or am I just missing something??? Please help! ???
Peace journeyman,
Quote from: journeyman on August 01, 2009, 02:35:30 AM
Peace brothers and sister. I am new here (and new to Islam) and am getting ready to observe Ramadan for the first time. My friends are Sunni and tell me that the actual time of Ramadan is for 30 days (one can continue to fast an extra 10 days for some reason if they choose) and that it actually moves during the year because of the Islamic calender vs. the majority 365 day/year calender. I have read the posts in this thread and understand the scientific and Quranic evidence but yet no one has actually said when Ramadan should be or for how long or am I just missing something??? Please help! ???
I sincerely recommend that you read Ayman's scholarly and eye-opening article on Ramadan.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Quote from: siki on August 01, 2009, 12:29:05 AM
Any time you find a full kinda moon while the sun has still not set, ignore it, look for it the next day, till,
you find first full moon which rises after the sun set,that is the one (shahar)
siki
Last year 4:00 A.M. June 18th you missed this big scorching full moon illusion before summer solstice?
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
Quote from: siki on August 01, 2009, 01:25:18 AM
This might help a few, in understanding the problem , and God's solution.
1. In God's system , there is nothing like a week, hour or a minute, because there is no natural marker to count that from. God counts in days, because we have sun rise and set for calculation.
2. Then the next bigger unit can be a time period between two consecutive natural visible markers , that could be a period between two similar shape moons, either crescents (hilal), half moons (badars), or full moons (shahar)
There are significantly more chances of an error if we take shapes other than the full moon for counting this period.
But if we take the full moon (rounded shape) which rises soon after the sun set (the first one)to start our count, we cant miss it. That is what Quran calls as Shahar.
Then try to distinguish between the one?s coming up in a few days...
Aug 3 95% full moon
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m154.jpg)
Aug 4 98%
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m166.jpg)
Aug 5 Full Moon 8:56 P.M. (better be outside that exact moment to witness it not indoors or asleep)
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m176.jpg)
Aug 6 100%
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m186.jpg)
Aug 7 98%
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m198.jpg)
Quote 3. However we can not call the period between the two shahars as month(neither does the quran) because that is not always fixed, it would be 29, or some time 30 units.
4. The next important unit (in human life) is a year (around which the life exists, and gets synchronised) shortest day to a shortest day , or longest day to the next longest day. We could take any for starting a year. But then how could a human precisely calculate ( back then ) without the help of a man made device?
Sure we can; start of Ramadan when you see ?D? ? begin fasting next day at dawn?
Aug 23 14%
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m044.jpg)
Stop fasting when you see ?D? again which occurs a week after you see ?C??
Sept 14 22%
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m304.jpg)
Sept 21 10%
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m038.jpg)
Quote5. God selected another marker which came once yearly, after the longest day , shahar ramadhan, The Full moon in scorching heat, which had a different color shade to it , orangish yellow, rather than yellowish white.
(if you can distingusish the color shade difference between a normal tungeston bulb and a tube light, or a mercury bulb, that is precisely the color difference)
6. As the year could not be divided in equal monthly units, with the help of this marker, so we do not have a God's month, but Shahars to approximate an intermediate unit, ( between a year and a day)
7. We count shahars, and we count only 12 as per his instructions , because every three years we will find one extra between two shahars of Ramadhan. We will not count that , that is how the life around earth will be in sync with life governing/sustaining Marker, :sun: The sun.
In my opinion this is how God wants us to keep track of time, when He says, "I have given you sun and the moon to calculate"
siki[/color]
Skipping full moons is no different than interjecting months; they called it month 13 you call it
?no name or skip full moon? start at the beginning right away need to skip a month then skipping every 2 or 3 years which the full moon will vary in color from big/orange if a day after solstice to ordinary white 29 days after the solstice?
ramadan 0 0
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
skip full moon 354.36708 365.242199 summer solstice
ramadan 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416 730.484398
ramadan 738.26475
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
skip full moon 1092.63183 1095.726597
ramadan 1122.16242
ORDINARY FULL MOON 27 days after summer solstice 2___ 1151.69301
3___ 1181.2236
4___ 1210.75419
5___ 1240.28478
6___ 1269.81537
7___ 1299.34596
8___ 1328.87655
9___ 1358.40714
10__ 1387.93773
11__ 1417.46832
12__ 1446.99891 1460.968796
ramadan 1476.5295
2___ 1506.06009
3___ 1535.59068
4___ 1565.12127
5___ 1594.65186
6___ 1624.18245
7___ 1653.71304
8___ 1683.24363
9___ 1712.77422
10__ 1742.30481
11__ 1771.8354
12__ 1801.36599 1826.210995
ramadan 1830.89658
2___ 1860.42717
3___ 1889.95776
4___ 1919.48835
5___ 1949.01894
6___ 1978.54953
7___ 2008.08012
8___ 2037.61071
9___ 2067.1413
10__ 2096.67189
11__ 2126.20248
12__ 2155.73307
skip full moon 2185.26366 2191.453194
ramadan 2214.79425
2___ 2244.32484
3___ 2273.85543
4___ 2303.38602
5___ 2332.91661
6___ 2362.4472
7___ 2391.97779
8___ 2421.50838
9___ 2451.03897
10__ 2480.56956
11__ 2510.10015
12__ 2539.63074 2556.695393
ramadan 2569.16133
2___ 2598.69192
3___ 2628.22251
4___ 2657.7531
5___ 2687.28369
6___ 2716.81428
7___ 2746.34487
8___ 2775.87546
9___ 2805.40605
10__ 2834.93664
11__ 2864.46723
12__ 2893.99782 2921.937592
ramadan 2923.52841
2___ 2953.059
3___ 2982.58959
4___ 3012.12018
5___ 3041.65077
6___ 3071.18136
7___ 3100.71195
8___ 3130.24254
9___ 3159.77313
10__ 3189.30372
11__ 3218.83431
12__ 3248.3649
skip full moon 3277.89549 3287.179791
ramadan 3307.42608
2___ 3336.95667
3___ 3366.48726
4___ 3396.01785
5___ 3425.54844
6___ 3455.07903
7___ 3484.60962
8___ 3514.14021
9___ 3543.6708
10__ 3573.20139
11__ 3602.73198
12__ 3632.26257 3652.42199
ramadan 3661.79316
2___ 3691.32375
3___ 3720.85434
4___ 3750.38493
5___ 3779.91552
6___ 3809.44611
7___ 3838.9767
8___ 3868.50729
9___ 3898.03788
10__ 3927.56847
11__ 3957.09906
12__ 3986.62965
skip full moon 4016.16024 4017.664189
ramadan 4045.69083
ORDINARY FULL MOON 28 days after solsticePeace
Peace Ayman,
For years I was thinking about what would have been the basis for the new Islamic calendar and the Islamic era based on this calendar. As a result of this thought, I was really doubting the sanctity of the Islamic calendar as believed by the so-called muslims. I read your article some two or three months back and found it really eye-opening and shedding light on what would have been the abstention mentioned in the Quran. But I have yet to study your article in depth before arriving at a conclusion. I appreciate your efforts and sincerety to find the true Islam again. I'm learning many things from your articles. Thank you. Please continue your service in the cause of God by disseminating religious knowledge. All of us are only humans and are prone to making mistakes. If you come to know some or many mistakes in your understanding of the Quranic truths in a later stage, you should always be ready to accept and correct them.
May God guide us all to the right path.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMWhy would I change the order of the months that Prophet Muhammad used? The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow.
This is pure fantasy so that you can follow your forefathers blindly without using whatever brain you still have. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMYou are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?.
I don't care about the hero worship fetish that you have for Umar. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMJudging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that.
It is not my suggestion. It is an indisputable fact that the order of the months has no basis in the great reading and is 100% arbitrary and therefore has NOTHING to do with the god's system. What makes you think that Ramadhan is the 9th month? Why not the 8th or 7th or 1st month? Your system is 100% arbitrary and manmade.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMQuote: ?.. new year today and you conjecture that Ramadhan is the 9th month in your calendar then your Ramadhan will be 9 lunar months from today?
You think people are that dumb.
No just you. Here is a simple example for slow people like you:
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 -10 - 11 - 12
New moon .... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12
New moon ......... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12
If you, Umar or whoever started the lunar calendar with the next new moon then your 9th month will be 9 months from now. If you, Umar or whoever started the lunar calendar with the following new moon then your 9th month will be their 8th month. So while you are fasting in their Ramadhan, they will still be in Shaaban, and so on... The fact is that your Ramadhan is 100% dependent on your, Umar or whoever human decided the arbitrary start of the calendar.
The same thing goes for other arbitrary manmade decisions such as the your special "Holy" day of the week:
S - M - T - W - T - F - S
.... S - M - T - W - T - F - S
......... S - M - T - W - T - F - S
When Friday, Saturday or Sunday occur depends 100% on an arbitrary manmade decision of when to start the present 7 day week. If the start was delayed by one day then your Friday would have been what is now Saturday.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMWhat kind of mind and education do you have?
Everything that I am saying is indisputable and doesn't require much brains to understand. It is only disputed by brain dead sectarians such as you.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMI think it is something you would do though. If I am starting a new calendar from next new moon, I will call my first month Ramadan and by default it will become my new year.
See the example above. Someone else who decided to start their new calendar where Ramadan is month 1 from the new moon after next would have Shaaban while you are having your Ramadan. Your and their Ramadan is 100% dependent on an arbitrary manmade decision.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 09:28:11 AMAnother extreme situation is this: If a powerful disbelieving system takes over and change the calendar and order of the months, I will re-synch the new months with the known Ramadan month and continue my religious duties. It is easy (Elementary my dear Watson).
How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 10:15:18 AMQuote: ?No, I don't get it. Please excuse my ignorance and show us your incredible intelligence by telling us this commone sense and measurement techniques that allows you to know this using 17:12.?
First, you give me the length of your solar cycle. This way you will not be able to take different position after the fact. The solar cycle I use is 365.2xxx. Why are you not dividing yours?
In other words, you can't answer.
I already gave you the length. It is the length between solstices. This was true a million years ago when the days in the cycle wasn't 365.2xxx and it will be true 10 million years from now when the days in the cycle is not 365.2xxx anymore. How hard is this to understand?
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 10:15:18 AMQuote: ?Of course the parts in underline and bold in your translation are contradictory.?
Contradictory, says who? Are you the authority who decides what is right from wrong? You have too big an ego to be thinking that everything you do or say is correct. You must think you are infallible. Your faulty posts prove otherwise.
Everyone can see that the above irrelevant rant is a surrender on your part that you can't address the contradiction.
Quote from: guest on July 31, 2009, 10:15:18 AMQuote: ?The year is the interval between the longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night. This system is a self-adjusting system that doesn't require any adjustment. I guess I am now a famous person.?
You are not famous yet. It is just a claim now. You have to put it in practice and show that it works. You can start by giving us the number of days between the ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night?. These days has to equate to the God given solar cycle.
The number of days don't matter. The number of days between solstices will always be the actual year regardless of any calendar system. This is a self-adjusting natural system that will work even a million years from now when the number of days is not 365.2xxx anymore.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ramzi,
Quote from: ramzi on July 31, 2009, 10:35:43 AM
lol,
Why? Is the time between longest/shortest day/night not God given?
Indeed, Guest seems to think that I decided when the longest/shortest day/night occur. He is so used to his timing being arbitrary and manmade that he can't tell the difference.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid Abdullah,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on July 31, 2009, 02:27:46 PMPerhaps take difference (lunar - solstice) calculate where we are at currently in the cycle.
It sounds like you don't know what are you talking about. Please give us an example and tell us exactly when your "ramadhan" and your four restricted "shahr" start and end.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on July 31, 2009, 02:27:46 PMThe other thing is it may be the same with how to exactly pray; really doesn't matter, start anywhere in the cycle -- not much difference between time slices and what matters is the current moment the only reality.
So you admit that your alternative timing is arbitrary and starts anywhere in the cycle you decide.
This is 100% false based on the fact that acording to the great reading the hunting restrictions are to be enforced and there are specific penalties for violating them. So this can't be left to each individual whims. This is what 9:36-37 are warning us about: arbitrary manmade decisions that result in violating the hunting restrictions.
Until, you come up with a better alternative then this thread still stands as the best understanding available on this matter and until a better one is found, we should all follow it.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 01, 2009, 03:36:32 AMLast year 4:00 A.M. June 18th you missed this big scorching full moon illusion before summer solstice?
This is not the scorching full moon. Scorching means "red and hot". This one is only red but the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 01, 2009, 03:36:32 AMThen try to distinguish between the one?s coming up in a few days...
Aug 3 95% full moon
Aug 4 98%
Aug 5 Full Moon 8:56 P.M. (better be outside that exact moment to witness it not indoors or asleep)
Aug 6 100%
Aug 7 98%
Yet the reality is that for thousands of years people were able to easily distinguish the full-moon and there was never any disagreement on when it occurs. You really ought to get outside more and observe for yourself and see how easy it is to distinguish the full moon, which is the
perfectly symmetric moon (84:18). Also, as Siki pointed out, the full-moon will appear after sunset not before like the 95% one.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 01, 2009, 03:36:32 AMSure we can; start of Ramadan when you see ?D? ? begin fasting next day at dawn?
Aug 23 14%
Stop fasting when you see ?D? again which occurs a week after you see ?C??
Sept 14 22%
Sept 21 10%
What you are saying has nothing to do with reality as evidenced by the annual dispute between sectarians about when so-called Ramadhan starts and ends.
Moreover, how can you count 12 periods using the time between C and D. Remember that the word "ahilat" means "crescents" in general and not just waxing crescent. You can't use "crescents" to count 12 periods.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 01, 2009, 03:36:32 AMSkipping full moons is no different than interjecting months; they called it month 13 you call it ?no name or skip full moon? start at the beginning right away need to skip a month then skipping every 2 or 3 years which the full moon will vary in color from big/orange if a day after solstice to ordinary white 29 days after the solstice?
Nope. The full moon a day after solstice will also be white during the middle of the night after it has risen enough. The key is how long it takes for the moon to rise. The full-moon after the solstice will take much longer to rise and will rise to a lower elevation than the following full-moons and therefore will remain red longer.
Also, if you use the crescent, you will get 24-26 crescents (C and D) in a year NOT 12.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 02, 2009, 10:24:29 AM
It sounds like you don't know what are you talking about. Please give us an example and tell us exactly when your "ramadhan" and your four restricted "shahr" start and end.
So you admit that your alternative timing is arbitrary and starts anywhere in the cycle you decide.
Your theory albeit a new look contradicts and for some weird reason you avoid history and ignore/skip whole months which from the chatter in those days no conspiracy ramadan meant a whole lunar month evident from the works of mathematician/scientists like Al-Biruni and others that 12 month lunar calendars where present and traversed the seasons which later a 13th month was injected across many cultures to sync the year -- exactly the same you are doing by skipping.
What I suggested was starting at the beginning as per 9:36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book of God
the day He created the heavens and the earth...
For example: in 2001 there was a new moon/solar eclipse on the summer solstice and supposedly also aligned with galaxy center which could be the starting point of the cycle and doesn't say exactly so many days/nights or 12 months have to be in one year...
Solstice June 21 New Moon Jun 21 Total eclipse
1___ 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708 365.242199 solstice 2002
1___ 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
QuoteThis is 100% false based on the fact that acording to the great reading the hunting restrictions are to be enforced and there are specific penalties for violating them. So this can't be left to each individual whims. This is what 9:36-37 are warning us about: arbitrary manmade decisions that result in violating the hunting restrictions.
I disagree that was about a global 4 month hunting restriction. Unless they were American Indians on the great plains hunting buffalo, most people on the planet do not depend on hunting for food; they settled in cities thousands of years ago, domesticated animals (varying mating seasons) and grow plants, fished, etc.
Quote
Until, you come up with a better alternative then this thread still stands as the best understanding available on this matter and until a better one is found, we should all follow it.
Again, your theory is a form of adding a 13th month and contradicts numerous things including this simple example...
2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten
Please highlight below or indicate the end date of two widows who are each to wait 14 months:
1. husband deceased on summer solstice which occurs also on the full moon ramadan 0
2. husband deceased on the skipped full moon before the summer solstice
ramadan 0 0 solstice
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
skip full moon 354.36708 365.242199 summer solstice
ramadan 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416 730.484398
ramadan 738.26475
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
skip full moon 1092.63183 1095.726597 summer solstice
ramadan 1122.16242
Quote from: ayman on August 02, 2009, 10:49:04 AM
Yet the reality is that for thousands of years people were able to easily distinguish the full-moon and there was never any disagreement on when it occurs. You really ought to get outside more and observe for yourself and see how easy it is to distinguish the full moon, which is the perfectly symmetric moon (84:18). Also, as Siki pointed out, the full-moon will appear after sunset not before like the 95% one.
Right, easy since you know what it is before going outside...lol Try guessing these without clicking...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kajo55/sets/72157600174342578/
People across cultures used new moon as start of calendars; never heard of full moon as start-end until now.
QuoteAlso, if you use the crescent, you will get 24-26 crescents (C and D) in a year NOT 12.
Not counting "C" only stating the obvious; it'll be there a week before the "D" or start/end of the cycle.
http://www.ngc7000.org/cam/moon-20050410.jpg
Btw, I went outside; moon looks full bright-white with blueish circle round it and 3 days away from 100% full.
Peace
Peace Ayman,
I said: Why would I change the order of the months that Prophet Muhammad used? The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow.
Ayman?s response: ?This is pure fantasy so that you can follow your forefathers blindly without using whatever brain you still have. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did?
My rebuttal: Ayman you don?t even know what you are talking about. Your response is wrong, illogical, inconsistence, and out of line. Seriously, you need help.
The month of Ramadan is tied to the night of destiny. Therefore, it is NOT arbitrary. This proof (the knowledge) was given to you in the previous post but you wouldn?t accept it.
7:175 - Recite for them the news of one who was given our proofs, but chose to disregard them. Consequently, the devil pursued him, until he became a strayer.
As for the claim ?Bring your proof from the great reading like I did?, you did not bring any proof from the Quran, you have twisted the God?s word according to a satanic dictionary and put forward an absurd timing system that exhibits full of error when implemented by well educated humans. Further, you provide no details about this timing system because you don?t even know what you are talking about. You approach validates the phrase ?little learning is dangerous?.
17:12 does not talk about summer solstice. It talks about using the sun for timing such as the dawn, midday, sunset etc. which is used for performing salat. You are in violation of the God?s law and here is a verse I quote for you, perchance you may take heed.
7:176 - Had we willed, we could have elevated him therewith, but he insisted on sticking to the ground, and pursued his own opinions. Thus, he is like the dog; whether you pet him or scold him, he pants. Such is the example of people who reject our proofs. Narrate these narrations, that they may reflect.
I said: You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?.
Ayman?s response: ?I don't care about the hero worship fetish that you have for Umar. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did.?
My rebuttal: It is not about hero worship rather it is about giving proper credit to people who had done good deeds. It is also about improper slander without evidence.
You don?t give a hoot about these value, you only care about your own ego.
8:17 - It was not you who killed them; GOD is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; GOD is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
Only the good person acknowledges good deed. Only the bad person slander good people. And you find no wrong in it.
24:11 - A gang among you produced a big lie. Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.
24:12 - When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."
24:13 - Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.
Quote: ?What makes you think that Ramadhan is the 9th month? Why not the 8th or 7th or 1st month? Your system is 100% arbitrary and manmade.?
The night of Destiny is my God given proof. I follow the God?s system.
On the otherhand, your system is completely arbitrary.
I said: You think people are that dumb.
Ayman?s Response: ?No just you. Here is a simple example for slow people like you:
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 -10 - 11 - 12
New moon .... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12
New moon ......... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 ? 12
My rebuttal: You don?t even understand the meaning of resetting a count associate with the calendar. The God has sealed your heart. Therefore, you will not understand it. You are totally unaware.
7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Here is what my calendar looks like. I kept your above notation to make the matter simple for you.
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 ? 12 - year 1
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 ? 11 ? 12 - year 2
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 ? 12 - year 3
Another representation would be:
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11?12; 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11?12; and so on
If I want to initiate a new count of years from next new moon (assume 9th moon above), my calendar would look like this:
9 ? 10 ? 11 ? 12 ? 1 ? 2 ? 3 ? 4 ? 5 ? 6 ? 7 ? 8 Year 1
The month corresponding to the numbers remains the same. Therefore, I will perform Ramadan in the first month (#9) and do whatever I need to do in following month. And this simple fact is very difficult for you to comprehend.
Quote: ?Everything that I am saying is indisputable and doesn't require much brains to understand. It is only disputed by brain dead sectarians such as you.?
Indisputable to you and not to people who believe in one God and do good deeds.
Quote: ?How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly??
The God will raise a messenger to correct the situation, or we will follow the example of Abraham, or we will opt for feeding poor people as it is difficult to determine the month of Ramadan, etc.
In reality such situation will never happen in the future. We will always find some people still practicing the original timing system in the underground or in a favorable neighboring country. The salat and the timing system will remain intact until the J-day, God willing.
We find the Muslim of the world is united in performing Ramadan with the new moon. Even though, some may start fasting a day earlier than the others. We have no evidence of deviation from this practice.
Peace Guest,
I asked you to bring proof from the great reading but instead of taking this opportunity you continue to make useless noise and parade your ignorance and your inability to read on this forum. Your only attempt at 17:12 shows that you are deaf and blind. The god tells you "the number of years" and you hear "dawn, midday, sunset".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Everyone,
Quote from: guest on August 03, 2009, 10:41:05 AMQuote: ?How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly??
The God will raise a messenger to correct the situation, or we will follow the example of Abraham, or we will opt for feeding poor people as it is difficult to determine the month of Ramadan, etc.
Guest himself gave the example of the powerful disbelieving system and now he is forced to admit to the fact that his arbitrary manmade system has ZERO basis in the great reading and therefore can't be reached using the great reading. Enough said.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Vivek,
Quote from: vivek on August 01, 2009, 03:41:32 AMFor years I was thinking about what would have been the basis for the new Islamic calendar and the Islamic era based on this calendar. As a result of this thought, I was really doubting the sanctity of the Islamic calendar as believed by the so-called muslims. I read your article some two or three months back and found it really eye-opening and shedding light on what would have been the abstention mentioned in the Quran. But I have yet to study your article in depth before arriving at a conclusion. I appreciate your efforts and sincerety to find the true Islam again. I'm learning many things from your articles. Thank you. Please continue your service in the cause of God by disseminating religious knowledge. All of us are only humans and are prone to making mistakes. If you come to know some or many mistakes in your understanding of the Quranic truths in a later stage, you should always be ready to accept and correct them.
Thank you for your kind words. All good is due to the god. Many people contributed to this thread and this effort in understanding the timing issue. Even people like Guest with their idiotic nonsense and who suffer from hero worship disease have inadvertently helped solidify this understanding. For those who can see it, truth shines clearly in contrast to falsehood. Thank you everyone, including people like Guest, for making this thread the best and most comprehensive resource anywhere on the issue of the timing.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMYour theory albeit a new look contradicts and for some weird reason you avoid history and ignore/skip whole months which from the chatter in those days no conspiracy ramadan meant a whole lunar month evident from the works of mathematician/scientists like Al-Biruni and others that 12 month lunar calendars where present and traversed the seasons which later a 13th month was injected across many cultures to sync the year -- exactly the same you are doing by skipping.
If you are going to critique something then the first step is to understand it properly. My theory (as you call it) has no such thing as "months" and is not concerned with calendars. Once you get beyond that block then you would be able to see more clearly.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMWhat I suggested was starting at the beginning as per 9:36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book of God the day He created the heavens and the earth...
For example: in 2001 there was a new moon/solar eclipse on the summer solstice and supposedly also aligned with galaxy center which could be the starting point of the cycle and doesn't say exactly so many days/nights or 12 months have to be in one year...
You are making things too complicated for yourself. The god simply tells us in 17:12 to use the day and night to know the number of years. No need for conjecture about eclipses or things to supposedly align with the galaxy center. The ONLY way to use the day and night to know the number of years is if we take the year as the interval between longest/shortest day/night, in other words the interval between solstices. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY TO APPLY 17:12 PERIOD.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMSolstice June 21 New Moon Jun 21 Total eclipse
1___ 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708 365.242199 solstice 2002
This is false. You have 13 and not 12 new moons. You skipped counting the first one.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PM1___ 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
We both know why you stopped here and didn't continue. If you continued, you would get years with 13 new moons between solstices about every 2-3 years. So whatever objection you had for skipping to count "shahr" you haven't applied to yourself and were forced to use the same method of counting ONLY and ALWAYS 12 as per 9:36 and skip counting the 13th one.
Moreover, your decision to use the new moon has nothing to do with the great reading. The term "new moon" or "waxing crescent" is never used in the great reading. On the other hand, "full moon" is one of the meanings of "shahr".
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMI disagree that was about a global 4 month hunting restriction. Unless they were American Indians on the great plains hunting buffalo, most people on the planet do not depend on hunting for food; they settled in cities thousands of years ago, domesticated animals (varying mating seasons) and grow plants, fished, etc.
If what you are saying is true then why do all civilized societies have hunting restrictions in the summer and hunting is resumed in the fall? This is reality.
Also, 5:1-2, 5:94-96 make it clear that indeed hunting is relevant to the message.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMAgain, your theory is a form of adding a 13th month and contradicts numerous things including this simple example...
You are attacking a different theory. You need to differentiate between arbitrary months and god-given natural cosmic phenomena. I have nothing to do with adding months or any calendar. I simply count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY YEAR, as commanded in 9:36. If obeying the command in 9:36 results in not counting the occasional 13th full moon then be it.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PM2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten
Please highlight below or indicate the end date of two widows who are each to wait 14 months:
1. husband deceased on summer solstice which occurs also on the full moon ramadan 0
2. husband deceased on the skipped full moon before the summer solstice
ramadan 0 0 solstice
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
skip full moon 354.36708 365.242199 summer solstice
ramadan 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416 730.484398
ramadan 738.26475
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
skip full moon 1092.63183 1095.726597 summer solstice
ramadan 1122.16242
9:36-37 clearly tell us that the count of full-moons is 12 out of which 4 are restricted. This has to do with not violating the god's restriction on hunting and the timing for the feast/"hagg". This has nothing to do with counting the waiting period, which is counting the event of the full-moon just like menstruations are events. So when you are counting four full moons and ten nights, you don't skip any full-moons.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMRight, easy since you know what it is before going outside...lol Try guessing these without clicking...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kajo55/sets/72157600174342578/
I am not the type of guy who is glued to the net all day. You need to get some fresh air and get out more and try to see the full-moon and the new moon for yourself. I bet that you NEVER witnessed the new moon while you witnessed the full-moon countless times.
Also, there has NEVER been any dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, almost EVERY SINGLE year there is a huge dispute on when the new moon occurs.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMPeople across cultures used new moon as start of calendars; never heard of full moon as start-end until now.
Your problem is that you are still stuck on manmade calendars. Until you get beyond this mental block, you will not see. It is a fact that all cultures timed EVENTS (not calendars) according to the full moon. Therefore all cultures have the HARVEST MOON, the HUNTER MOON, etc. When it came to these practical purposes such as hunting restrictions and harvest feasts ALL THESE ARE FULL MOONS and NOT NEW MOONS.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMNot counting "C" only stating the obvious; it'll be there a week before the "D" or start/end of the cycle.
http://www.ngc7000.org/cam/moon-20050410.jpg
But then while the word "ahilat" (crescents in general) is mentioned in the great reading, the word "new moon"/"waxing crescent" is NEVER mentioned. If one takes "shahr" to mean crescents then you have 24-26 crescents in a solar year or you have to invent your own imaginary meaning for the word "shahr".
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 02, 2009, 09:12:20 PMBtw, I went outside; moon looks full bright-white with blueish circle round it and 3 days away from 100% full.
Good. This moon appeared before the sun sets and is not fully symmetric. Keep looking and you will see the actual full moon appear symmetric and AFTER sunset. On the other hand, you will NEVER see the new moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Blah,blah,blah,
Ramadan has been made well known by Allah. :hypno:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PM
If you are going to critique something then the first step is to understand it properly. My theory (as you call it) has no such thing as "months" and is not concerned with calendars. Once you get beyond that block then you would be able to see more clearly.
I understand your point in time 12 snapshot theory well.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMTHERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY TO APPLY 17:12 PERIOD.
17:12 ?and to know the years' number,
and the counting/calculating?
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMThis is false. You have 13 and not 12 new moons. You skipped counting the first one.
This is where I disagree with your definition, shahr is not as snapshot; shahr is a time length = 29.53059 days.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PM
We both know why you stopped here and didn't continue. If you continued, you would get years with 13 new moons between solstices about every 2-3 years. So whatever objection you had for skipping to count "shahr" you haven't applied to yourself and were forced to use the same method of counting ONLY and ALWAYS 12 as per 9:36 and skip counting the 13th one.
Again, with single point in time (i.e. full moon); your fast will end as soon as it starts.
2:185? so who witnessed from you the month (alshshahra),
so he should fast it?
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMIf what you are saying is true then why do all civilized societies have hunting restrictions in the summer and hunting is resumed in the fall? This is reality.
Which animals, what countries, show the data.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMAlso, 5:1-2, 5:94-96 make it clear that indeed hunting is relevant to the message.
Yes, in context: the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt...
5:96 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
It's clear that is a local ban not to deplete the resources of the gathering place.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMI simply count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY YEAR, as commanded in 9:36. If obeying the command in 9:36 results in not counting the occasional 13th full moon then be it.
Nice way to explain a contradiction. It's there simply ignore it. lol
Where does it say 12 full moons EVERY YEAR?
Not counting same the nineteen infatuated not counting chapter titles.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PM9:36-37 clearly tell us that the count of full-moons is 12 out of which 4 are restricted. This has to do with not violating the god's restriction on hunting and the timing for the feast/"hagg". This has nothing to do with counting the waiting period, which is counting the event of the full-moon just like menstruations are events. So when you are counting four full moons and ten nights, you don't skip any full-moons.
Where you get 10 nights?
2:234 ?four ashhurin and ten
14 ashhurin, which you count full moons then do not count/skip full moon.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMI am not the type of guy who is glued to the net all day. You need to get some fresh air and get out more and try to see the full-moon and the new moon for yourself. I bet that you NEVER witnessed the new moon while you witnessed the full-moon countless times.
Me me, all about me, OK enough about me, tell me what you think -- about me. lol
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMAlso, there has NEVER been any dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, almost EVERY SINGLE year there is a huge dispute on when the new moon occurs.
There was NEVER a dispute on HALF MOON either, why would there be.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMYour problem is that you are still stuck on manmade calendars. Until you get beyond this mental block, you will not see. It is a fact that all cultures timed EVENTS (not calendars) according to the full moon. Therefore all cultures have the HARVEST MOON, the HUNTER MOON, etc. When it came to these practical purposes such as hunting restrictions and harvest feasts ALL THESE ARE FULL MOONS and NOT NEW MOONS.
Your calendar is 100% Ayman made.
Don't get excited over full-moon names, it was light outside that's all.
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PMGood. This moon appeared before the sun sets and is not fully symmetric. Keep looking and you will see the actual full moon appear symmetric and AFTER sunset. On the other hand, you will NEVER see the new moon.
It was 9pm last night and it looked like an ordinary full moon same as it did tonight at 9:30pm I came back from hitting full moon looking golf balls under bright white full moon light at the driving range packed with people; go outside look at the moon...
TODAY Aug 3 Moon Phase 95%
TUE Aug 4 Moon Phase 98%
WED Aug 5 Moon Phase Full Moon 8:56 P.M. (better not be cloudy else your fast is void)
THUR Aug 6 Moon Phase 100%
FRI Aug 7 Moon Phase 98%
Peace
Peace Ayman,
Quote from Ayman (Reply #986 on: Today at 03:49:04 PM): "This is not the scorching full moon. Scorching means "red and hot". This one is only red but the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it."
This is very interesting.
All full moons are red hot. The average temperature of the moon is about 107 degree Celsius when it is receiving sunlight. Yes, you can boil water and make a cup of tea without having to light a fire. In fact the full moon after solstice in northern hemisphere is farthest away from the sun. Hence, it should be less hot than the other full moons.
You can?t just provide superficial (phony) argument like ??the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it." Provide your proof. Need evidence.
Are we supposed to fast every full moon throughout the year (12 moons)? Because they are hotter than the one you mentioned.
Is your story now going to be: the moon has to look big even though the size of the moon does not change or the color has to be red/orange even though it is caused by the Earth atmospheric conditions.
What does your dictionary say now?
We should be getting more data on the moon surface condition soon which will further nullify you crazy theory.
The moon does not have any seasons because it does not have tilt like the Earth. So you cannot claim season to justify you absurd theory.
Oh, don?t forget to look at the moon today, tomorrow, and day after tomorrow. Lets see how many full moons we see in these three days.
Peace Ayman,
I looked at the moon last night (August 4, 2009) at around 9:00 PM. I saw a clear and bright full-moon with my naked eyes. My perception was validated by lady who was walking by me. She told me that it was a full moon and that she was looking at it prior to my asking.
Then again at around 10:00 PM at a different location, I asked two young fellows (about 19 years old and no eye glasses) about the moon. They said it was definitely a full moon. They were unaware of the experiment I was conducting.
Following are moon data from U.S. Naval Observatory, Astronomical Applications Department:
- Phase of the Moon on 4 August: waxing gibbous with 98% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated
- Full Moon on 5 August 2009 at 8:55 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time
- Phase of the Moon on 6 August: waning gibbous with 100% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated
- Phase of the Moon on 7 August: waning gibbous with 98% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated
The moon of August 4, 2009 and moon of August 7, 2009 will look the same per above data (98%). And if people are saying August 4th moon a full-moon then they will also say that August 7 moon a full-moon. Therefore, a full-moon based timing system (Ayman?s System) can produce an error of 3 days. Plus you will have horrendous time defining criteria for pinpointing full-moon. Your system is path to hell. If you insist on your system then you are trying to create confusion and divisions among the believers. And you know very well that you will not be able to fool the believers as they will shun your system and you. I recommend that you recant the article, repent and reform. Otherwise you would have demonstrated a behavior that is bad to the bone. And the God does not like this at all. For your own good, please return to the Lord of the universe. He is the most forgiving.
4:113 - If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy, some of them would have misled you. They only mislead themselves, and they can never harm you in the least. GOD has sent down to you the scripture and wisdom, and He has taught you what you never knew. Indeed, GOD's blessings upon you have been great.
Dear brother guest,
Instead of cursing ayman , or asking people's opinion, carry out a simple exercise,
1-Watch sun set.
2- after sun sets,
3-watch for the moon,
4- if you find moon above horizon and it looks like a full moon,
5- ignore it, that is not the shahar,
6-Do this again next day,
7- If you find fullish kinda moon above horizon , ignore it, and keep repeating this each day,till one day you find No Moon at sun set.
8-Now start looking for the moon, which is expected to rise soon.
9-Let me assure you , that soon you will find a full huge moon rising from the opposite horizon, This would take place "a few seconds after sun set" , or would "extend to more than an hour", depends where are you on the globe , and it also depends upon time of the year (Around summer solstice, time duration will be short, and during winters it will be comparatively much longer)
This is the moon which can be termed as a shahar.
It is a celestial impossibility for a moon which rises before sun set, to have better percentage visibility than the first moon which rises after sun set, "At the instant of moon rise"
peace
siki
Peace siki,
Quote: ?Let me assure you , that soon you will find a full huge moon rising from the opposite horizon, This would take place "a few seconds after sun set"?
The huge full-moon you are referring to occurs when lunar perigee and the full-moon coincide. This does not happen every year after summer solstice. The last time it happened in the northern hemisphere was on July 21, 2005. And the next time it will happen is on August 10, 2014. In between the full-moon looks about the same.
If you are looking for scorching full-moon, you will find it in January time-frame because that is when the earth (moon as well) is closest to the sun. Even though you will feel cold in the northern hemisphere the moon will be a real hot one.
Peace siki,
In fact, the next huge, bright, and hot full-moon can be witnessed on Jan 30, 2010.
Peace Siki, Ayman, everyone,
The criterion given by Siki to determine the usual or so-called full-moon is not entirely accurate (the reason I am calling it usual or so-called will become obvious later). For practical purposes, a usual full-moon can be very easily figured out by determining which moon stays in the sky the longest during night. That can be only one moon out of the whole moon cycle during only one night and thus CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER be confused unlike what some ignorant people here are trying to make others believe. They don't do their homework per 17:36 and come up with misleading information to confuse others. This is a deliberate deception on their part because even a high school student can discover the facts with sincere research.
It is extremely easy to determine the usual full-moon for practical purposes. Just wait until the moon gets near the full phase and then measure the time from the moon rise until the moon set and the night with the longest time between moon rise and moon set will automatically be the night of the usual or so-called full-moon.
Now coming to "ramadhan"/scorching, obviously the word is used in the great reading relevant to an observer on earth rather than on the moon so it refers to the temperature on earth and not the moon surface temperature.
Therefore, determining "shahr ramadhan" is EXTREMELY EASY WITHOUT ANY CONFUSION WHATSOEVER. Look for the first almost full-moon after the summer solstice which will be the moon which stays in the sky the longest during night, which can be only one moon out of the entire moon cycle during only one night WITHOUT ANY CONFUSION.
http://odyssey.bowdoin.edu/~dfrancis/askanerd/moon/
While conducting this research, I think I have finally unlocked the mystery of "shahr" as used in the great reading and have finally determined its exact meaning as follows: :yay:
In the technical sense, the actual EXACTLY FULL MOON occurs only when the moon, the earth and the sun are exactly lined up at 180 degrees with the earth exactly in between the moon and the sun. Therefore, at that time the moon will be in the earth's shadow and there will be a lunar eclipse. So it is impossible to "see" the EXACT FULL MOON which occurs every few months, because it will be completely in the earth's shadow and there will be a total lunar eclipse !!!!! As soon as the moon comes out of the eclipse it will not be the full-moon anymore but will be almost full-moon. Therefore the moon is TECHNICALLY NEVER FULL !!!!! The so-called full moon which occurs every lunar cycle is not actually EXACTLY FULL MOON. That is why I propose that "shahr" in the great reading does not refer to FULL MOON but the moon CLOSEST TO FULL or ALMOST FULL MOON which coincides with the classical Arabic dictionary meaning, and this CLOSEST TO FULL MOON can be determined by the method outlined above WITHOUT ANY CONFUSION WHATSOEVER.
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/moon_fallacies_040227_A1.html
Therefore, "shahr" as used in the great reading would be the ALMOST FULL MOON which occurs once every moon cycle and which is the moon that stays in the sky the longest during night. No wonder it is "shahr" and not "badr" in those places where "shahr" is used in the great reading. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which increases my faith even more.
:yay: :yay: :yay:
Peace truthseeker11,
You say: ?Now coming to "ramadhan"/scorching, of course the word was used in the great reading relevant to an observer on earth rather than on the moon so it refers to the temperature on earth and not the moon surface temperature.?
If this is true then you are talking about ?red and hot? Earth. Please refer to Ayman?s definition below. Please explain to us what a ?red & hot? Earth is? You must be living in Mars. Are you a alien from Mars?
Please preach your theory on planet Mars.
Quote from Ayman (Reply #986 on: Today at 03:49:04 PM): "This is not the scorching full moon. Scorching means "red and hot". This one is only red but the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it."
You say: ?In the technical sense, the actual EXACTLY FULL MOON occurs only when the moon, the earth and the sun are exactly lined up at 180 degrees with the earth exactly in between the moon and the sun. Therefore, at that time the moon will be in the earth's shadow and there will be a lunar eclipse. So it is impossible to "see" the EXACT FULL MOON which occurs every few years.?
I am speechless. I guess you didn?t know that the lunar orbit is tilted five degree. This is why we see full-moon every month. I really don?t know what to say, except that you should get some basic astronomy education before you write again. You are not helping Ayman very much.
You say: ?It is extremely easy to determine the usual full-moon for practical purposes. Just wait until the moon gets near the full phase and then measure the time from the moon rise until the moon set and the night with the longest time between moon rise and moon set will automatically be the night of the full-moon.?
Now, you are asking us to measure full-moon from its rise to set. It is indeed a very hard job. Even if we do as you suggest, the measured time for each one of us will be different because we are not synchronously measuring the rise and set time. To do that we will need one time base. Are you going to synch our clock? How? How will you resolve these idiosyncrasies? Mr. truthseeker11, you are trying to give us new religious law in violation of the Quran.
Please stop this nonsense.
There are so much errors/mistakes in your thoughts that it is not even funny anymore.
Whether hotness is referred to earth or the full-moon, the theory is in the toilet.
The simplest and easiest thing to do is look for the new moon in the month of Ramadan and start the fast. The criterion is very simple, either you see the moon or not. On or off. This is the God given law.
Peace everyone,
It is UNBELIEVABLE how ignorant some people are which makes me think that most likely they make a deliberate attempt to mislead others rather than being ignorant.
Of course the orbital plane of the moon around the earth is tilted 5 % relative to the orbital plane of the earth around the sun but it is amazing how some people cannot grasp the simple fact that even then the moon, the earth, and the sun can be aligned at 180 degrees. In fact it happens every 173 days as I am going to illustrate. Even a high school student can grasp such a simple fact.
"Here the ecliptic plane is represented by the translucent green and blue checkerboard, with the Sun in the centre, and the Earth moving in its orbit within the ecliptic; the Earth's orbit is shown in blue. The plane of the Moon's orbit is shown as the tilted red and yellow checkerboard (in reality, it's only tilted by about 5 degrees), with the Earth being the blue and white ball in its centre. The Moon is shown in white, and its orbit is shown as a white line.
You'll notice two red blobs drawn on the Moon's orbit. These represent the point where the Moon's orbit crosses the ecliptic plane, and are referred to as nodes. Now, an eclipse can only occur when the Moon is in line with the Earth and Sun; but a line from the Earth to the Sun -- drawn here in purple -- lies along the ecliptic. So, an eclipse can only occur when the Moon is in (or near) the ecliptic; and that means that it has to be at, or near, one of the two nodes, and that node has to be positioned in line with the Earth and the Sun.
As the whole Earth-Moon system orbits around the Sun every year, the two nodes will find themselves aligned with the Earth and Sun (one in between, and one "behind" the Earth) twice a year; this means that there are two times each year when we can get an eclipse. Because the node doesn't have to be exactly lined up to cause an eclipse, there is actually a period of 37 days during which an eclipse can occur. These times -- when one of the Moon's nodes is approximately in line between the Earth and Sun, so there is the possibility of an eclipse -- are called eclipse seasons.
As the Moon goes round the Earth, if it passes through either node during an eclipse season, an eclipse will occur; a solar eclipse if the new Moon passes the node between the Earth and Sun, or a lunar eclipse if the Full Moon passes the other node. Furthermore, if the Moon is (more or less) exactly at that node at the middle of the eclipse season, the eclipse will be total (or maybe annular, for a solar eclipse) as seen from some part of the Earth.
This diagram shows the Moon passing through a node, while that node is between the Earth and the Sun; this leads to a total solar eclipse. I've cut out the middle of the Moon's orbital plane so you can see the Moon's shadow falling on the Earth:
(http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/truthseeker11/OrbitsEclipse.png)
As a matter of fact, the Moon's orbit itself is gradually rotating on its axis, with the effect that the nodes gradually rotate around the Earth. For this reason, an eclipse season happens a little more often than every six months; in fact, every 173 days."
The above is from the following website:
http://www.hermit.org/Eclipse/why_cycles.html
I would recommend everyone especially the ignorant to go through this article in detail. The other point about the time that the moon spends in sky during night by the above poster is so dumb that it speaks for itself.
The only correction I will make in my above post is that we have to measure the time that the moon is in the sky from after sunset to before sunrise. The almost full-moon will spend the longest time in the sky during the night (from the time of sunset to sunrise). The moon before the full moon will rise before sunset and will thus spend less time in the sky during night. The moon after the almost full-moon will rise later after the sunset than the almost full-moon and will thus again spend less time in the sky during night. The almost full-moon is the moon that will spend the longest time in the sky during night and WILL BE THE FIRST MOON PHASE TO RISE IMMEDIATELY AFTER SUNSET AS SIKI POINTED OUT.
So Siki was in fact correct. Therefore the ALMOST FULL MOON will have two characteristics:
1. It is the first moon phase to rise immediately after sunset during the lunar cycle.
2. It is the moon phase which will remain in the sky the longest during night.
Therefore it is EXTREMELY EASY to determine the "shahr"/almost full-moon. Just wait until the moon gets near the full phase and then look for the first moon phase that rises immediately after sunrise. This almost full-moon will also stay in the sky the longest during night (between sunset and sunrise). As everyone can see, there will be NO CONFUSION WHATSOEVER. This way even a child can figure out the "shahr".
In addition to the above two points to determine the "shahr"/almost full-moon, there are three additional features of "shahr ramadhan"/almost full-moon of the scorching heat:
3. It is the almost full-moon which will remain closest to the horizon.
4. It is the almost full-moon which will appear bigger and more red than all the other almost full-moons because of point #3
5. It will occur immediately after summer solstice.
Please see the following article which explains the moon rise and moon set times for various phases in detail:
http://cseligman.com/laboratory/findingmoon.htm
"A Full Moon rises as the Sun goes down, or within half an hour of sunset, is in the South near midnight, and sets in the West within half an hour of sunrise. The fact that the Full Moon rises and sets very close to sunrise and sunset is the easiest way to tell that it is full. A day before and after Full Moon, the Moon looks just as round and full as on the day of Full Moon, but if it is a day before Full Moon, it rises and sets about an hour before the Sun sets and rises, and if it is a day after Full Moon, it rises and sets about an hour after the Sun sets and rises. It is only on the day of Full Moon that its rising and setting times almost exactly match the setting and rising times for the Sun."
Peace truthseeker11,
You say: ?So it is impossible to "see" the EXACT FULL MOON which occurs every few months, because it will be completely in the earth's shadow and there will be a total lunar eclipse !!!!!?
So, now we have full-moon every few months as opposed to every month. This is absurd. I think, somebody needs to go through the weaning phase again.
Then you say: ?The criterion given by Siki to determine the usual or so-called full-moon is not entirely accurate?
Then you contradict yourself by saying ?So Siki was in fact correct.?
And you want us to trust you. No sir, you have lost credibility. And no one did that to you but yourself.
You say: ?Therefore, "shahr" as used in the great reading would be the ALMOST FULL MOON which occurs once every moon cycle and which is the moon that stays in the sky the longest during night.?
By saying ?ALMOST FULL MOON? you are contradicting with Ayman?s definition ?full moon?. What a slick move on your part to justify an ill conceived theory of Ayman. Here is Ayman definition ?2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was??
You say: ??..but it is amazing how some people cannot grasp the simple fact that even then the moon, the earth, and the sun can be aligned at 180 degrees. In fact it happens every 173 days as I am going to illustrate. Even a high school student can grasp such a simple fact.?
Knowledgeable peoples are fully aware of eclipse and its time of occurrence. However, it is the unknowledgeable person who brings the topic up for discussion when it is not called for. Eclipse is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Looks like someone just failed the kindergarten test.
You say: ?The moon before the full moon will rise before sunset and will thus spend less time in the sky during night. The moon after the almost full-moon will rise later after the sunset than the almost full-moon and will thus again spend less time in the sky during night. The almost full-moon is the moon that will spend the longest time in the sky during night and WILL BE THE FIRST MOON PHASE TO RISE IMMEDIATELY AFTER SUNSET AS SIKI POINTED OUT.?
This reminds me of mouse trap that Tom the cat builds to catch the mouse Jerry in ?Tom and Jerry? cartoon show. Enough said.
Here is a simple problem for you to solve. Can you find flaws in Ayman?s quote below?
?Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal.?
Peace Eid,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMI understand your point in time 12 snapshot theory well.
Let's hope.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AM17:12 ?and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating?
This doesn't say anything about how you can know the number of years based on the day and night. As I mentioned my way is the ONLY way. This is indisputable and this is why you can't say anything.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMThis is where I disagree with your definition, shahr is not as snapshot; shahr is a time length = 29.53059 days.
Then you will never be able to count 12 of your 29.53059 days periods in any year. You are violating 9:36.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMAgain, with single point in time (i.e. full moon); your fast will end as soon as it starts.
2:185? so who witnessed from you the month (alshshahra), so he should fast it?
Your incorrect understanding creates the following insurmountable contradictions:
1. It creates inequality between 2:185, which according to you says that the great reading was descended in 29.53059 days, while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in a night.
2. It creates inequality between 2:184 and 2:185 since now according to you the abstinence is for 29.53059 days but 2:184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 max days), unless you invent a new meaning for "ma3doodat" out of thin air.
3. It creates redundancy in 2:185 since if it was known that it was 29.53059 then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
4. It violates the clear command in 9:36 to count only 12 "shahr" because using 29.53059 to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMWhich animals, what countries, show the data.
This has been discussed previously in length. Please do your homework before asking.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12409.0
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMYes, in context: the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt...
5:96 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
It's clear that is a local ban not to deplete the resources of the gathering place.
In the context there is absolutely no mention of "hagg". It is clear that you are blindly repeating what sectrians believe.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMNice way to explain a contradiction. It's there simply ignore it. lol
It is your false understanding of "shahr" as 29.53059 that creates a major inconsistency between 2:226 and 2:228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMWhere does it say 12 full moons EVERY YEAR?
9:36 clearly tells us that this is a system that is there since the god created the heavens and the earth.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMNot counting same the nineteen infatuated not counting chapter titles.
This just shows that you are running out of anything of value to say.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMWhere you get 10 nights?
2:234 ?four ashhurin and ten
14 ashhurin, which you count full moons then do not count/skip full moon.
If it is 14 full moons, then you count 14 full-moons. I already explained the purpose of counting of 12 according to 9:36 and it has nothing to do with spouse waiting period.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMMe me, all about me, OK enough about me, tell me what you think -- about me. lol
In other words, you admit that you NEVER SAW THE NEW MOON and that you are merely speaking out of lack of experience.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMThere was NEVER a dispute on HALF MOON either, why would there be.
Even HALF MOON is a better marker that people will agree about more than the NEW MOON.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMYour calendar is 100% Ayman made.
This shows that you still don't understand my theory. I NEVER even proposed a calendar.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMDon't get excited over full-moon names, it was light outside that's all.
I am not excited because I knew this all along. You are the one who just learned now about the fact that most cultures used the full-moon to mark events throughout history.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 04, 2009, 12:05:13 AMIt was 9pm last night and it looked like an ordinary full moon same as it did tonight at 9:30pm I came back from hitting full moon looking golf balls under bright white full moon light at the driving range packed with people; go outside look at the moon...
TODAY Aug 3 Moon Phase 95%
TUE Aug 4 Moon Phase 98%
WED Aug 5 Moon Phase Full Moon 8:56 P.M. (better not be cloudy else your fast is void)
THUR Aug 6 Moon Phase 100%
FRI Aug 7 Moon Phase 98%
Yet somehow, unlike the new moon, no one ever disagrees on when the full-moon occurs. Maybe it is rocket science to you but it is simple to everyone else.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 07, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
This doesn't say anything about how you can know the number of years based on the day and night. As I mentioned my way is the ONLY way. This is indisputable and this is why you can't say anything.
Then you will never be able to count 12 of your 29.53059 days periods in any year. You are violating 9:36.
Your incorrect understanding creates the following insurmountable contradictions:
1. It creates inequality between 2:185, which according to you says that the great reading was descended in 29.53059 days, while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in a night.
2. It creates inequality between 2:184 and 2:185 since now according to you the abstinence is for 29.53059 days but 2:184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 max days), unless you invent a new meaning for "ma3doodat" out of thin air.
3. It creates redundancy in 2:185 since if it was known that it was 29.53059 then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
4. It violates the clear command in 9:36 to count only 12 "shahr" because using 29.53059 to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY.
1. Already answered this in another post; yes, started that night, when did these events take place, same night?
3:124 When you say to the believers: "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the angels sent descending?"
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
66:3 And when the prophet confided to some (of) his wives an information, so when she informed with it and God made it apparent on (to) him, he made some of it known and he opposed from some, so when he informed her with it, she said: "Who informed you (of) this?" He said: "The knowledgeable, the expert informed me."
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9aHoM3E2Go
2. You dismiss it as being out of thin air yet maAAdoodatin is relative not always 3-10 max days.
3:24 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative).
11:8 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).
12:20 darahima maAAdoodatin ? talks about a small price?
Depends on denominations used, example: (10) $1 coins, (40) quarters, (100) dimes, a relative small price.
3. There is no redundancy or contradiction; simply says make up missed days as without water (5:6) no hardship.?
?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days. God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata?
4. Again, you're theory is no different than intercalation (9:37) legal one year, illegal in another.
Quote from: ayman on August 07, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
This has been discussed previously in length. Please do your homework before asking.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12409.0
Clearly refuted; your restriction drifts a month; Jun 22 legal one year while another start July 21 it is not.
Quote from: ayman on August 07, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
In the context there is absolutely no mention of "hagg". It is clear that you are blindly repeating what sectrians believe.
What's going on -- the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt?
Quote from: ayman on August 07, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
It is your false understanding of "shahr" as 29.53059 that creates a major inconsistency between 2:226 and 2:228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
There are no inconsistencies.
2:226 about men, they swear clock starts and ends 4 months later.
2:228 about women divorced wait three periods, variable different for each woman.
Quote from: ayman on August 07, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
9:36 clearly tells us that this is a system that is there since the god created the heavens and the earth.
This just shows that you are running out of anything of value to say.
If it is 14 full moons, then you count 14 full-moons. I already explained the purpose of counting of 12 according to 9:36 and it has nothing to do with spouse waiting period.
Like your hunting restriction, a widow waits 13 months if husband died on the day of a full moon while another waits 29 days longer if he died
one day after a full moon and in addition, either woman will not be able to tell 5-6 days since they?ll see a full moon.
Quote from: ayman on August 07, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
In other words, you admit that you NEVER SAW THE NEW MOON and that you are merely speaking out of lack of experience.
Even HALF MOON is a better marker that people will agree about more than the NEW MOON.
This shows that you still don't understand my theory. I NEVER even proposed a calendar.
I am not excited because I knew this all along. You are the one who just learned now about the fact that most cultures used the full-moon to mark events throughout history.
Yet somehow, unlike the new moon, no one ever disagrees on when the full-moon occurs. Maybe it is rocket science to you but it is simple to everyone else.
Again cannot exactly determine a NEW MOON or FULL MOON with naked eye. If it?s cloudy you missed your fast, if you are blind/partly blind or even have 20/20 vision as evident the last 5 days which they all look alike to me and others which I asked while playing golf under the full moon light; does that moon look full to you, which he replied -- I can't see. lol
The new moon crescent start fast then when seeing it again ?D? as in Eid ? end fast.
2009 Aug 23
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m044.jpg)
Peace
Peace Eid,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PM1. Already answered this in another post; yes, started that night, when did these events take place, same night?
3:124 When you say to the believers: "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the angels sent descending?"
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
66:3 And when the prophet confided to some (of) his wives an information, so when she informed with it and God made it apparent on (to) him, he made some of it known and he opposed from some, so when he informed her with it, she said: "Who informed you (of) this?" He said: "The knowledgeable, the expert informed me."
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9aHoM3E2Go
"Started that night" is nothing but conjecture. Which night?
According to you those things happened only during 29.53059 days! Clearly, your answer only demonstrates that you don't know the difference between "inzal" (in one night and certainly not 29.53059 days) and "tanzil" (gradually to the prophet's heart and certainly not 29.53059 days). Revelation is a two stage process.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PM2. You dismiss it as being out of thin air yet maAAdoodatin is relative not always 3-10 max days.
3:24 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative).
11:8 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).
12:20 darahima maAAdoodatin ? talks about a small price?
Depends on denominations used, example: (10) $1 coins, (40) quarters, (100) dimes, a relative small price.
The denomination is already known as Darahim so you are simply hanging at straws to save your contradictions. Please provide even a single piece of evidence showing that "ma3doodat" means 29.53059. After that please explain why the god would give redundant info. If "shahr" is already known to be 29.53059 days then why say "ayyam ma3doodat" and why say "complete the count"? Do you think that the god likes to give redundant and useless info!?
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PM3. There is no redundancy or contradiction; simply says make up missed days as without water (5:6) no hardship.?
?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days. God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata?
"Ayyam ma3doodat" has nothing to do with making up missed days. It clearly describes the term of the fast. Had it already been known to be 29.53059 days as you conjecture then this would definitely be redundant and contradictory info.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PM4. Again, you're theory is no different than intercalation (9:37) legal one year, illegal in another.
Where is the word "intercalation" in 9:37? You are making up meanings out of thin air again. Also, I don't do anything in alternate fashion one year and then not do it the next and so on. I simply count 12 "shahr" EVERY SINGLE YEAR as commanded in 9:36.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PMClearly refuted; your restriction drifts a month; Jun 22 legal one year while another start July 21 it is not.
It drifts but still within the period where wild life needs to be protected. It is not left up to the whims of people as you want it to be.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PMWhat's going on -- the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt?
Where does it say that after
completing "Ihram" you may hunt? It is not my problem that you are clueless about what the words "kaaba" and "ihram" mean and therefore are unable to translate them and are blindly following sectarians.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PMThere are no inconsistencies.
2:226 about men, they swear clock starts and ends 4 months later.
2:228 about women divorced wait three periods, variable different for each woman.
The SAME EXACT Arabic word "tarabus" is used as the verb in both 2:226 and 2:228, indicating that it is the same exact action of waiting for events. Your conjecture creates inconsistencies between how the same exact verb is used.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PMLike your hunting restriction, a widow waits 13 months if husband died on the day of a full moon while another waits 29 days longer if he died one day after a full moon
Same as for the woman in 2:228 she will wait longer if she just had her period or shorter if her period happens right after.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PMand in addition, either woman will not be able to tell 5-6 days since they?ll see a full moon.
Only if they are idiots.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PMAgain cannot exactly determine a NEW MOON or FULL MOON with naked eye. If it?s cloudy you missed your fast, if you are blind/partly blind or even have 20/20 vision as evident the last 5 days which they all look alike to me and others which I asked while playing golf under the full moon light; does that moon look full to you, which he replied -- I can't see. lol
The new moon crescent start fast then when seeing it again ?D? as in Eid ? end fast.
You know that you are lying. I guarantee that you NEVER saw the new moon your entire life.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PM
"Started that night" is nothing but conjecture. Which night?
According to you those things happened only during 29.53059 days! Clearly, your answer only demonstrates that you don't know the difference between "inzal" (in one night and certainly not 29.53059 days) and "tanzil" (gradually to the prophet's heart and certainly not 29.53059 days). Revelation is a two stage process.
Start in a night during the month of Ramadan and I see what was posted finally caught your attention that "revelation is a two stage process" otherwise all those events happened
only during one night would contradict.
If you still disagree, here's another chance to answer ? when did these events take place, same night?
3:124 When you say to the believers: "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the angels sent descending?"
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
66:3 And when the prophet confided to some (of) his wives an information, so when she informed with it and God made it apparent on (to) him, he made some of it known and he opposed from some, so when he informed her with it, she said: "Who informed you (of) this?" He said: "The knowledgeable, the expert informed me."
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9aHoM3E2GoQuote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PM
The denomination is already known as Darahim so you are simply hanging at straws to save your contradictions. Please provide even a single piece of evidence showing that "ma3doodat" means 29.53059. After that please explain why the god would give redundant info. If "shahr" is already known to be 29.53059 days then why say "ayyam ma3doodat" and why say "complete the count"? Do you think that the god likes to give redundant and useless info!?
"Ayyam ma3doodat" has nothing to do with making up missed days. It clearly describes the term of the fast. Had it already been known to be 29.53059 days as you conjecture then this would definitely be redundant and contradictory info.
Already explained "darahima maAAdoodatin" is a relative term meaning they paid a small price and posted other verses...
3:24 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative).
11:8 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).Two questions; don?t skip answering like your full moon every 3rd or 2nd year?
2:185?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days?1. How do you fast a full moon? Is not the above logically clear that shahr is a number of days not a single event?
2. Which part in 2:185 informs you that
?God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata???Quote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PM
Where is the word "intercalation" in 9:37? You are making up meanings out of thin air again. Also, I don't do anything in alternate fashion one year and then not do it the next and so on. I simply count 12 "shahr" EVERY SINGLE YEAR as commanded in 9:36.
It drifts but still within the period where wild life needs to be protected. It is not left up to the whims of people as you want it to be.
Like those before who inserted a drift month to beautify their ego exactly described?
9:37 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit it a year and they forbid it a year, to agree to (the) term God prohibited, so they permit what God forbade, and (the) evil (of) their deeds was beautified for them, and God does not guide the nation the disbelieving.Quote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PM
Where does it say that after completing "Ihram" you may hunt? It is not my problem that you are clueless about what the words "kaaba" and "ihram" mean and therefore are unable to translate them and are blindly following sectarians.
I asked you what's going on (5:1-2 and 5:94-97), where are people traveling to?
5:96 Permitted for you is the sea's fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?Quote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PM
The SAME EXACT Arabic word "tarabus" is used as the verb in both 2:226 and 2:228, indicating that it is the same exact action of waiting for events. Your conjecture creates inconsistencies between how the same exact verb is used.
Yeah, what word did you expect? Waiting a stated time is waiting until a due date.
2:226 للذين يؤلون من نسائهم تربص اربعة اشهر فان فاؤوا فان الله غفور رحيم
9:52 قل هل تربص ون بنا الا احدى الحسنيين ونحن نتربص بكم ان يصيبكم الله بعذاب من عنده او بايدينا فتربص وا انا معكم متربص ون
9:98 ومن الاعراب من يتخذ ماينفق مغرما ويتربص بكم الدوائر عليهم دائرة السوء والله سميع عليم
20:135 قل كل متربص فتربص وا فستعلمون من اصحاب الصراط السوي ومن اهتدى
52:30 ام يقولون شاعر نتربص به ريب المنون
Quote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PMSame as for the woman in 2:228 she will wait longer if she just had her period or shorter if her period happens right after.
Absurd, comparing men who have to fast two consecutive months (4:92) to woman's periods; all have to fast exactly the same number of days not 29 days shorter/longer.
Quote from: ayman on August 08, 2009, 09:14:24 PM
Only if they are idiots.
You know that you are lying. I guarantee that you NEVER saw the new moon your entire life.
The only arrogant pompous idiot is you and your ignorant cheerleaders posting in this thread.
I looked at the moon every night for 5 nights which they all looked full as it did to a member of my family and anyone else who bothered to look -- see guest's earlier post. Instead replying with idiot remarks simply ask members of your family or whoever to look at the moon the next time it is 98% full see if they are idiots too.
Btw, I'll try taking a picture of the new moon crescent coming up for you; not sure if my iPhone will catch it although aiming is proof.
Peace
Salam. Ayman, i live in Derbent, Russia, when i should fast accordin to your investigation? And, stop being so mad guyz, stop hatin on each otha so much, its not islam, even if yall will be fastin your whole life.
Peace,
How did Prophet Muhammad and his follower fast?
The simple, short and sweet answer is: According to the Qur'an.
Following is the details of my understanding:
They used to fast in the month of Ramadan per 2:185 (the Arabic month as we know it today)
There are 12 months per 9:36. And one moon cycle = one month per 2:189, 14:33, 55:5. Please note that the sun cannot give us the month because of the inherent long cycle. It does however give us days, nights, dawn, midday, sunset which are used for performing salat and other daily duties.
Now, 2:189 says ?They ask you about the phases of the moon?. Clearly these phases belongs to one moon cycle because we only see one moon at a time. Therefore, the moon cycle begins with new moon and ends with the end of the last phase of the moon. This establishes a clear boundary between current moon and the subsequent moon which is not to be violated. Now, if someone foolishly define full-moon to full-moon cycle then he would be violating the boundary as established by the Quran . Further, he would introduce a bigger error in the timing system with this man made system.
Based on the above information, Ramadan starts with the sighting of new moon in the month of Ramadan. Errors will be made in sighting moon. Lets use an example to demonstrate the errors.
At location A, new moon is sighted with no problem and they have 30 days of fast.
At location B, moon sighted is two days old. Hence they have 29 days of fast.
At location C, moon sighted is three days old due to overcast issue. Thus, they have 28 days of fast.
Now, what is the God given solution to this problem. And the solution is given in 2:184 - ?Specific days ......?. The God knows that we will be making unintentional errors and gives a way out by saying specific days instead of month. The specific days are 30, 29, 28.
Now lets analyze some quotes of Ayman's :
Quote from Ayman: "Then you will never be able to count 12 of your 29.53059 days periods in any year. You are violating 9:36."
This is not true per the following illustration:
1 Month = 1 lunar Cycle = 29.53059 days
12 Months = 12 lunar Cycles = 354.36708 days
Therefore, by definition a lunar year is 354.36708 days period.
If you divide 354.36708/29.53059 you get 12.
Quote from Ayman: "As I mentioned my way is the ONLY way."
We have been trying to find what your ONLY way is? Please tell us the start dates and the end dates of your timing system for the past three years. Map your start and end dates to solar calender in use today. Then we will see what happens when rubber meets the road. Why are you not releasing these information. Are you trying to hide something or are you afraid of knowledgeable people. Your mentality of my way or the highway will not work with people who uses their brain to verify the val idity of your claim.
Quote from Ayman: ?Yet somehow, unlike the new moon, no one ever disagrees on when the full-moon occurs. Maybe it is rocket science to you but it is simple to everyone else.?
Your followers do not disagree because the devil already has you and your follower. Typically, when someone tries to do good deed, the satan whisper not to do it e.g. charity, salat, helping poor etc. In your case satan already has you, therefore, satan do not have to do any additional work.
Ayman and his followers will have this to say on the day of Judgment:
34:32 ? The leaders will say to those who followed them, ?Are we the ones who diverted you from the guidance after it came to you? No; it is you who were wicked.?
34:33 ? The followers will say to their leaders, ?It was you who schemed night and day, then commanded us to be unappreciative of God, and to set up idols to rank with Him.? They will be ridden with remorse, when they see the retribution, for we will place shackles around the necks of those who disbelieved. Are they not justly requited for what they did?
Peace Eid,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMStart in a night during the month of Ramadan and I see what was posted finally caught your attention that "revelation is a two stage process" otherwise all those events happened only during one night would contradict.
If you still disagree, here's another chance to answer ? when did these events take place, same night?
Not the same night. Only "inzal" happened in one night. On the other hand, the second stage of "tanzil" can happen anytime.
Now it is your turn. When did these events take place, in 29.53059 days?
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMAlready explained "darahima maAAdoodatin" is a relative term meaning they paid a small price and posted other verses...
3:24 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative)
11:8 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).
Your explanation has no logic. Even a million Darahim would be a relatively small price for a human being. So according to you "ma3doodat" can mean "a million" it also contradicts the clear meaning of "10 or less" as given by the dictionaries. So not only you are being illogical but you are making up your own invented meanings out of thin air.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMTwo questions; don?t skip answering like your full moon every 3rd or 2nd year?
2:185?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days?
1. How do you fast a full moon? Is not the above logically clear that shahr is a number of days not a single event?
How do you fast 29.53059 days? Is it not logically clear that no one can stay alive while fasting for 29.53059 days? Also, 2:185 clearly says that ?
who witnessed from you? (perfect past tense). So according to you it is ?
who witnessed from you 29.53059 days? should fast. So your nonsensical theory means that when you are still in day 1, 2, 3, etc. you don?t fast. It is only when you witness the
29.53059 days that you can now go back in time and fast.
The ONLY way 2:185 can make sense is if ?shahr ramadhan? is an event that marks the beginning of the fasting duty. This is why the details of the fasting duty are given in the passages around 2:185.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PM2. Which part in 2:185 informs you that ?God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata???
What are you talking about? ?ayyam ma3doodat? is in 2:184. Try to focus.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMLike those before who inserted a drift month to beautify their ego exactly described?
9:37 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit it a year and they forbid it a year, to agree to (the) term God prohibited, so they permit what God forbade, and (the) evil (of) their deeds was beautified for them, and God does not guide the nation the disbelieving.
You don?t seem to know the difference between ?drift? and ?postponement?. The drift is a natural result of the marker being the full-moon after the summer solstice. On the other hand, the ?postponement? is a manmade decision to delay the restriction period, as in your case where your 100% arbitrary timing for the hunting restriction, the ?fast? and the ?hajj? are left to your whims and fantasies.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMI asked you what's going on (5:1-2 and 5:94-97), where are people traveling to?
5:96 Permitted for you is the sea's fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
They are traveling to anywhere. Do you think that people only travel for ?hajj??
Now
tell us when is your fast and "hajj" or is it 100% arbitrary like that of Guest and can be "postponed" according to your or some other guy's whims?
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMYeah, what word did you expect? Waiting a stated time is waiting until a due date.
2:226 للذين يؤلون من نسائهم تربص اربعة اشهر فان فاؤوا فان الله غفور رحيم
9:52 قل هل تربص ون بنا الا احدى الحسنيين ونحن نتربص بكم ان يصيبكم الله بعذاب من عنده او بايدينا فتربص وا انا معكم متربص ون
9:98 ومن الاعراب من يتخذ ماينفق مغرما ويتربص بكم الدوائر عليهم دائرة السوء والله سميع عليم
20:135 قل كل متربص فتربص وا فستعلمون من اصحاب الصراط السوي ومن اهتدى
52:30 ام يقولون شاعر نتربص به ريب المنون
None of the above talks about any due date. They all talk about events. Getting stricken with punishment is an event. Waiting for things to turn on you is an event. Waiting for something bad to happen to a person is also an event. Etc. Please read what you are quoting before falsely claiming that it talks about a ?due date? which is only in your head.
So you can add all the passages that you brought to 2:228 and 2:226 which confirm that we are consistently dealing with waiting for EVENTS.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMAbsurd, comparing men who have to fast two consecutive months (4:92) to woman's periods; all have to fast exactly the same number of days not 29 days shorter/longer.
What is absurd is your lack of understanding. In 4:92 they have to fast the period between two consecutive full-moons. The period between two full-moons is a fixed period. This is why the word ?consecutive? is used. It is not between now and two full moons, it is between two full-moons.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMThe only arrogant pompous idiot is you and your ignorant cheerleaders posting in this thread.
You mean I am not incredibly smart like Guest and you. LoL.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMI looked at the moon every night for 5 nights which they all looked full as it did to a member of my family and anyone else who bothered to look -- see guest's earlier post. Instead replying with idiot remarks simply ask members of your family or whoever to look at the moon the next time it is 98% full see if they are idiots too.
Siki spelled it out for you and so did Truthseeker. It is not my problem that you are so angry that you can?t read what you should have figured out on your own anyway. You need to learn to be cool, especially if you have the high ground, which in this case you don?t.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PMBtw, I'll try taking a picture of the new moon crescent coming up for you; not sure if my iPhone will catch it although aiming is proof.
I said that you have NEVER seen the new moon and instead of admitting to this truth like any decent and honest person you decide to evade it and go on a futile exercise (thereby inadvertently confirming what I said). Fine. The new moon is on August 20. Good luck witnessing it or taking a picture of it with a powerful zoom, let alone an iPhone. You are going to need a lot of luck. I can guarantee that you will fail and you will be able to see at best the 1-2 day old moon on August 21 or 22 but not the actual new moon on August 20. We will see if you are big enough to admit your mistake.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
Not the same night. Only "inzal" happened in one night. On the other hand, the second stage of "tanzil" can happen anytime.
Now it is your turn. When did these events take place, in 29.53059 days?
No. It started that night rest was obviously revealed later. Good to see you changed your mind on this.
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
Your explanation has no logic. Even a million Darahim would be a relatively small price for a human being. So according to you "ma3doodat" can mean "a million" it also contradicts the clear meaning of "10 or less" as given by the dictionaries. So not only you are being illogical but you are making up your own invented meanings out of thin air.
I go by Qur?an and yes even a million days in hell can be little compared to eternity.
3:24 ذلك بأنهم قالوا لن تمسنا النار إلا أياما معدودت وغرهم في دينهم ما كانوا يفترون
Likewise, a numbered/near term is relative not 10 or less...
11:8 ولئن أخرنا عنهم العذاب إلى أمة معدودة ليقولن ما يحبسه ألا يوم يأتيهم ليس مصروفا عنهم وحاق بهم ما كانوا به يستهزءون
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
How do you fast 29.53059 days? Is it not logically clear that no one can stay alive while fasting for 29.53059 days? Also, 2:185 clearly says that ?who witnessed from you? (perfect past tense). So according to you it is ?who witnessed from you 29.53059 days? should fast. So your nonsensical theory means that when you are still in day 1, 2, 3, etc. you don?t fast. It is only when you witness the 29.53059 days that you can now go back in time and fast.
The ONLY way 2:185 can make sense is if ?shahr ramadhan? is an event that marks the beginning of the fasting duty. This is why the details of the fasting duty are given in the passages around 2:185.
Answering a question with questions is evading the question ? how do you fast a full moon?
To know is to see/witness and one can know/witness without physically seeing. The blind and people living in cloudy weather also fast during the month of Ramadan. Fast is during the day, when you see NEW MOON CRESCENT start fasting next day, and again the next day, until you see the new moon crescent again, stop fasting.
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
What are you talking about? ?ayyam ma3doodat? is in 2:184. Try to focus.
Pay attention, I was responding to your redundancy claim that this part is meaningless? 2:185 ?God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata??
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
You don?t seem to know the difference between ?drift? and ?postponement?. The drift is a natural result of the marker being the full-moon after the summer solstice. On the other hand, the ?postponement? is a manmade decision to delay the restriction period, as in your case where your 100% arbitrary timing for the hunting restriction, the ?fast? and the ?hajj? are left to your whims and fantasies.
You're making stuff up imagination gone wild; first it was to protect animals during birth; then when it was shown you that some are born during May, you fantasize about Arabs chasing them down with fast horses during weaning in the hot months of June, July, August; then when it's pointed out that your hunting restriction swings a whole month, you say well that's within range like animals mating habits drift a whole month...what a story teller. LOL
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
They are traveling to anywhere. Do you think that people only travel for ?hajj??
In context 5:1-2 and 5:94-97 are they still traveling anywhere?
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
Now tell us when is your fast and "hajj" or is it 100% arbitrary like that of Guest and can be "postponed" according to your or some other guy's whims?
Moon phases for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia year 643http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE.
The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE.
According to above which you can roll back only ten years to time of the prophet (peace and blessing upon him)?
New Moon - Start New Month
1/25/643 11:24 PM 27-Jan 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 9:00 AM 26-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 6:03 PM 27-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal
4/25/643 PERF 558 4/24/643 3:24 AM 4/26/643 6. Jumada al-thani
23-May 1:58 PM 25-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 2:21 AM 24-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 4:39 PM 23-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 8:32 AM 22-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 1:25 AM 21-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 6:33 PM 20-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 11:02 AM 19-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 1:58 AM 19-Dec 2. Safar
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
So you can add all the passages that you brought to 2:228 and 2:226 which confirm that we are consistently dealing with waiting for EVENTS.
As already stated, waiting a stated time is waiting for an event.
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
What is absurd is your lack of understanding. In 4:92 they have to fast the period between two consecutive full-moons. The period between two full-moons is a fixed period. This is why the word ?consecutive? is used. It is not between now and two full moons, it is between two full-moons.
Two full moons is EXACTLY 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
So right back at you ? how do you fast 29.53059 days?
How do you fast one full moon or 0 days?
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
You mean I am not incredibly smart like Guest and you. LoL.
Siki spelled it out for you and so did Truthseeker. It is not my problem that you are so angry that you can?t read what you should have figured out on your own anyway. You need to learn to be cool, especially if you have the high ground, which in this case you don?t.
I was extraordinarily cool after you referred to myself and a family member of mine as idiots and called me a liar too and your cheerleader truthseeker during his meaningless rant called us ignorant.
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
I said that you have NEVER seen the new moon and instead of admitting to this truth like any decent and honest person you decide to evade it and go on a futile exercise (thereby inadvertently confirming what I said). Fine. The new moon is on August 20. Good luck witnessing it or taking a picture of it with a powerful zoom, let alone an iPhone. You are going to need a lot of luck. I can guarantee that you will fail and you will be able to see at best the 1-2 day old moon on August 21 or 22 but not the actual new moon on August 20. We will see if you are big enough to admit your mistake.
Check your vision and exactly what I wrote?
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 09, 2009, 02:16:43 PM
Btw, I'll try taking a picture of the new moon crescent coming up for you; not sure if my iPhone will catch it although aiming is proof.
Peace
ayman, r u ignorin my post?
Quote from: Ibrahim-Khalil on August 10, 2009, 08:09:28 AM
ayman, r u ignorin my post?
Nope just responding in chronological order. I am on an airplane getting ready to take off. I won't be able to respond until after at least eight hrs.
Peace
Ayman
Salaam,
Quote from: Ibrahim-Khalil on August 09, 2009, 02:36:18 PM
Salam. Ayman, i live in Derbent, Russia, when i should fast accordin to your investigation? And, stop being so mad guyz, stop hatin on each otha so much, its not islam, even if yall will be fastin your whole life.
You're near Baku, Azerbaijan
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2009&n=369
Moon phases for Baku, Azerbaijan
<2008 year 2009 2010>
Full Moon
11-Jan 7:27 AM
9-Feb 6:49 PM
11-Mar 6:38 AM
9-Apr 7:56 PM
9-May 9:02 AM
7-Jun 11:12 PM
7-Jul 2:22 PM (full moon after summer solstice this year happened in daytime.)
6-Aug 5:55 AM
4-Sep 9:02 PM
4-Oct 11:10 AM
2-Nov 11:14 PM
2-Dec 11:31 AM
31-Dec 11:13 PM
Hi Ayman, Hi all,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer: Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
Quote from: herbman on August 10, 2009, 12:03:28 PM
Hi Ayman, Hi all,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer: Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
:laugh: You shooting the rock through the first bird, and into the second. ;)
I don't want to shoot any rock I just want to find the truth. I like the idea of having natural markers to resolve this issue, like we use markers for salat, and I think it is the most logical concept.
Quote from: herbman on August 10, 2009, 01:33:40 PM
I don't want to shoot any rock I just want to find the truth. I like the idea of having natural markers to resolve this issue, like we use markers for salat, and I think it is the most logical concept.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597441.0
Quote from: herbman on August 10, 2009, 12:03:28 PM
Hi Ayman, Hi all,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer: Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
Ssssssshhhhh... You have just presented the biggest problem and most illogical part of Ayman's system. ::)
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 10, 2009, 05:41:17 PM
Ssssssshhhhh... You have just presented the biggest problem and most illogical part of Ayman's system. ::)
It is not a problem at all because it is ordering people living near the House...so when say Ramadan means Ramadan of the Land not of the north pole.
Peace Ibrahim-Khalil,
Quote from: Ibrahim-Khalil on August 09, 2009, 02:36:18 PMSalam. Ayman, i live in Derbent, Russia, when i should fast accordin to your investigation? And, stop being so mad guyz, stop hatin on each otha so much, its not islam, even if yall will be fastin your whole life.
You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.
I hope this helps.
:group:
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid,
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMNo. It started that night rest was obviously revealed later. Good to see you changed your mind on this.
Please quote where I said that ?inzal? wasn?t in one night.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMI go by Qur?an and yes even a million days in hell can be little compared to eternity.
3:24 ذلك بأنهم قالوا لن تمسنا النار إلا أياما معدودت وغرهم في دينهم ما كانوا يفترون
I know no one who claims that they will stay in hell for 1 million days, which is relatively little compared to eternity. You are again forced to invent your own illogical meaning out of thin air because you can?t resolve the contradiction and now a few (?ma3doodat?) days can be made to mean a million days in your fantasy world.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMLikewise, a numbered/near term is relative not 10 or less...
11:8 ولئن أخرنا عنهم العذاب إلى أمة معدودة ليقولن ما يحبسه ألا يوم يأتيهم ليس مصروفا عنهم وحاق بهم ما كانوا به يستهزءون
There is nothing in 11:8 which says that it is not 10 or less so you must be imagining again.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMAnswering a question with questions is evading the question ? how do you fast a full moon?
To know is to see/witness and one can know/witness without physically seeing. The blind and people living in cloudy weather also fast during the month of Ramadan. Fast is during the day, when you see NEW MOON CRESCENT start fasting next day, and again the next day, until you see the new moon crescent again, stop fasting.
So now you are forced to do a cartwheel and invent another new meaning for ?shahr? as ?new moon crescent? (an event) instead of ?29.53059 days?. What is it the meaning of ?shahr? according to you, ?new moon crescent? or ?29.53059 days?? You are clearly caught in your inconsistencies. The reason why you are caught is the fact that ?shahid? is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you have to witness first in order to fast so clearly it is impossible for ?shahr? to mean ?29.53059 days? but it MUST be an event. Therefore despite all your ignorant noise about ?shahr? not being an event you are now forced to make a 180 degrees turn and implicitly acknowledge that it is in fact an event, which you claim is the new moon crescent.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMPay attention, I was responding to your redundancy claim that this part is meaningless? 2:185 ?God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata??
You need to read the whole passage from 2:184 and not snip it. What is the function of ?ayyam ma3doodat? in 2:184 if it is known that ?shahr? means ?29.53059 days?? It would have no function and would be completely redundant.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMYou're making stuff up imagination gone wild; first it was to protect animals during birth; then when it was shown you that some are born during May, you fantasize about Arabs chasing them down with fast horses during weaning in the hot months of June, July, August; then when it's pointed out that your hunting restriction swings a whole month, you say well that's within range like animals mating habits drift a whole month...what a story teller. LOL
Please show were I said ?that's within range like animals mating habits?.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMIn context 5:1-2 and 5:94-97 are they still traveling anywhere?
Yes, they are traveling anywhere unless you want to corner yourself again and propose that livestock had been made lawful to you in 5:1 only during ?hajj? and cooperating on righteousness in 5:2 only happen during the ?hajj?.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMMoon phases for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia year 643
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE.
The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE.
According to above which you can roll back only ten years to time of the prophet (peace and blessing upon him)?
New Moon - Start New Month
1/25/643 11:24 PM 27-Jan 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 9:00 AM 26-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 6:03 PM 27-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal 4/25/643 PERF 558
4/24/643 3:24 AM 4/26/643 6. Jumada al-thani
23-May 1:58 PM 25-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 2:21 AM 24-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 4:39 PM 23-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 8:32 AM 22-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 1:25 AM 21-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 6:33 PM 20-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 11:02 AM 19-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 1:58 AM 19-Dec 2. Safar
So now you are abandoning your arbitrary whimsical calendar where each one gets to decide their time for the ?hajj?, the fast, and the restriction according to their fantasies and instead cheerleading for the equally baseless and 100% arbitrary traditional calendar that had been thoroughly discredited on this thread by everyone with any common sense!
It doesn?t take a genius to realize that had the traditional calendar been made to start on the new moon prior to when it was adopted then your Jumada I would have been Rabi' Al-Thani and your Ramadan would have been Shaaban and so on. Also, had the arbitrary order of the months been different then you would have completely different Ramadan and so on. So your useless traditional timing is 100% arbitrary and manmade.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMAs already stated, waiting a stated time is waiting for an event.
No, it is not the same except in your fantasy land. Waiting for the event of menstruation is not waiting a stated time. Same goes for waiting for the event of the full-moon/?shahr?, or the event of something bad happening, a disaster, etc.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMTwo full moons is EXACTLY 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
So right back at you ? how do you fast 29.53059 days?
You don?t fast the continuous period of 29.53059 days (?shahr? according to you). No one does and is still alive. You fast daily between 2 full moons. The consecutive full-moons in the case of 4:92 simply signal the start and end of the fast.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMHow do you fast one full moon or 0 days?
Same as in 4:92, the full moon signals the start of the fast and the details of how long and the manner of the fast are given elsewhere. No one fasts 29.53059 days continuously.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMI was extraordinarily cool after you referred to myself and a family member of mine as idiots and called me a liar too and your cheerleader truthseeker during his meaningless rant called us ignorant.
You were referring to two hypothetical women who will not be able to tell the full-moon and so was I. I never said anything about you or a family member or any real person. If you don?t like what I said about those hypothetical women then I apologize and take back what I said. Now going back to your very intelligent hypothetical women, let?s listen to their conversation:
August 3, Sunset is at 7:10PM :hypno: Hypothetical Woman 1: The moon looks like an ordinary full moon.
:! Hypothetical Woman 2: The moon and the sun are on opposite sides of the earth so the real full moon appears right after sunset. Today?s moon, besides not being symmetric appeared an hour before sunset at 6:10PM.
August 4, Sunset is at 7:10PM :hypno: Hypothetical Woman 1: The moon looks like an ordinary full moon.
:) Hypothetical Woman 2: Again, today?s moon, besides not being perfectly symmetric appeared half an hour before sunset at 6:40PM.
August 5, Sunset is at 7:10PM :) Hypothetical Woman 2: Look it is 7:10PM and the perfectly symmetric full moon appeared at the opposite end of the sky from the sunset immediately after sunset. This is the full moon.
:sun: Hypothetical Woman 1: Wow you are right. This is so easy. Now I understand why, unlike the new moon crescent, there was never any dispute about when the full moon occurs and all ancient civilizations knew exactly when the full-moon occurs without any computers or technology.
(Data is for Washington, DC)
You should follow the example of the above hypothetical women.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 10, 2009, 12:27:59 AMCheck your vision and exactly what I wrote?
I know that you wrote NEW MOON crescent and not any regular crescent. As I said, the NEW MOON CRESCENT will appear on August 20. I guarantee that you will not be able to see it, let alone take a picture of it, on August 20 but you may see the 1-2 day old one on August 21 or 22. Don?t try to wiggle out of what you wrote by dishonestly taking a picture of a regular 1-2 day old crescent and not the NEW MOON crescent. You can also start to demonstrate your honesty by humbly admitting to the fact that you NEVER saw the NEW MOON CRESCENT in your life.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Herbman,
Quote from: herbman on August 10, 2009, 12:03:28 PMJust one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer: Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
The answer to your question will depend on the person.
1. If the person believes "hajj" to be spinning 7 times around a stone cube named Kaaba and kissing or waving at a Black Stone set in its corner while wearing nothing but towels so that his sins are wiped out then they will say that this is the biggest problem. However, frankly speaking, such person has much more severe problems on their plate. They should get their fundamentals and heart in the right place first and the timing is the least of their worries and they are not even in a position to discuss it.
2. If the person knows that 90% of the "hajj" passages talk about food and eating and that "hajj" means "feast" to the people of the book then it is natural that such feast where we share the bounties that the god provided to us would best take place when the harvest occurs and produce and livestock are plentiful, which would be different between Northern and Southern hemispheres. This person also knows that the period of the 4 restricted full moons is about hunting restriction and since wild life follows the solar cycle, it is also natural for the timing of the restriction to be different between Northern and Southern hemispheres. So for such a person, the timing being different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres is not an issue. This person knows that the location of the house is clearly given in 22:26 and it is not specifically in the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Even without the great reading, this person instinctively feels that there is something not quite right about revering and spinning around a black cube or kissing a Black Stone no matter how popular and no matter what his or her forefathers told him or her. This person has his or her heart in the right place. This person recognizes the truth when he or she sees it.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 10, 2009, 08:40:22 PM
:! Hypothetical Woman 2: The moon and the sun are on opposite sides of the earth so the real full moon appears right after sunset. Today?s moon, besides not being symmetric appeared an hour before sunset at 6:10PM.
:) Hypothetical Woman 2: Again, today?s moon, besides not being perfectly symmetric appeared half an hour before sunset at 6:40PM.
August 5, Sunset is at 7:10PM
:) Hypothetical Woman 2: Look it is 7:10PM and the perfectly symmetric full moon appeared at the opposite end of the sky from the sunset immediately after sunset. This is the full moon.
You are right, fantasy Woman 2 is a complete idiot deceiving herself.
Quote from: ayman on August 10, 2009, 08:40:22 PM
I know that you wrote NEW MOON crescent and not any regular crescent. As I said, the NEW MOON CRESCENT will appear on August 20. I guarantee that you will not be able to see it, let alone take a picture of it, on August 20 but you may see the 1-2 day old one on August 21 or 22. Don?t try to wiggle out of what you wrote by dishonestly taking a picture of a regular 1-2 day old crescent and not the NEW MOON crescent. You can also start to demonstrate your honesty by humbly admitting to the fact that you NEVER saw the NEW MOON CRESCENT in your life.
You know exactly what I meant and wrote.
Quote from: Eid Abdullah on August 08, 2009, 07:39:31 PM
Again cannot exactly determine a NEW MOON or FULL MOON with naked eye. If it?s cloudy you missed your fast, if you are blind/partly blind or even have 20/20 vision as evident the last 5 days which they all look alike to me and others which I asked while playing golf under the full moon light; does that moon look full to you, which he replied -- I can't see. lol
The new moon crescent start fast then when seeing it again ?D? as in Eid ? end fast.
2009 Aug 23
(http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m044.jpg)
Peace
I'm done with this topic and this site too -- have a nice life.
Peace be upon you all.
Bajram Avdyli
I live in Pakistan and there are at least three times in a year that people make a positive effort to look for the so called new moon (crescent) 1- we look for the crescent for so called Ramadan to start Ramadan, 2- we look out for crescent to end Ramadan, and this one is usually the favorite, because it signals the end of fasting and brings in the Ed festival next morning. 3- we look for crescent moon in the Islamic month of zul hajj, because this brings us a precise date for Hajj, and eid ul fittar.
On these three occasions, soon after sun set, you will find people/families gathered on roof tops, and making positive efforts to locate the crescent moon. We also did the same in our childhood.
All these years , I can only remember once that i ever saw a new crescent moon, and that also with great effort , and when i took my gaze/focus off and tried to relocate, I couldn't, despite knowing its exact location. It was there at same spot but i could see it again only with very positive consistent efforts.
After this I gave up sighting the moon, knowing that it is a very very difficult exercise, and no wonder , we have the official moon sighting committees in each province, consisting a bunch of Mullahs , positioned at towers/water tanks with star gazer telescopes. But yet they never find, or see it. And whenever they have announced a positive moon sighting, It is like this,
"From one hour up to 3 hours after sun set, The regular TV transmissions are interrupted, and the chief Mullah (head of the moon sighting committee) announce like this, "We have a witness reporting from so and so village confirming on oath that he did see the crescent , so hereby we confirm and announce the start of the month tomorrow, and fast/eid tomorrow"
Even today this is a regular practice, at least 20% of a 180 million nation, make some kind off effort to locate the crescent moon on these three occasions. And also, hundreds of experienced clerics divided in 5 groups for each province, look for it with specialised equipment at designated watch towers, but at the end make a mess of it. Because it boils down to a sole witness reporting from an unknown village, And when the committee reports no sighting or discredits the sightings reported by hallucinating individuals, we end up having two or three eids in the country ( :( that is almost every other year)
My Pakistani brothers and sisters, did i exaggerate?
:peace:
siki
In Urdu everyday we use many derivatives of root sh- ha -ra , and surprisingly all carry a connotation of "some thing obvious", "something you cant miss" , "something which itself makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"
we have , Mash-hoor, from sh ha ra, meaning famous.
we have, Shoh-raut, from sh ha ra, meaning fame or reppo.
we have, Ishti-har , from sh ha ra, meaning advertisement.
We Muslims/Pakistanis, have no interest/reason to look for a full moon, and hence we never do it.
But yet there is generally no confusion, we all know that now is a full moon night. We do not look for it , but it tells us itself, It is there, just there, big, shiny, bright , soon after sun set, like an advertisement, telling us "look i am full tonight".
siki
let us assume for a while that shahr is a month, and we have to take moon cycles to start this period, we can count from any "one particular shape to the same shape again, for completing a cycle", logically we would select" a shape most visible/obvious, and least confusionable. The so called new crecent moon is least bright and its duration is minimun in the sky, where as exactly opposite is true for the full moon.
"why should God encourage us to start counting from an impossible marker? Do we understand correctly what does the term marker? and what does it necessitate? Do you think God is stupid? What ever little I have known HIM , HE is not, "whereas , we all are, to a certain degree"
Are you guys blind, or don't want to see ?
peace siki, all,
Yes, multiple Eids is a very common practice in countries, even in the UK with all its so-called technology. Many years ago I had the pleasure of discussing with a member of the committee who actually decided when Eid was for the area, and he told us they never actually attempted to look for any new moon, they all just had a chat and decided when was best or what other countries were doing or what their particular sect of Islam was doing and did that. Much to my and my cousins surprise at the time (well, more so to their surprise, I was half expecting it), but that was what they did, and no doubt still do. To think that God would make us stumble about with some sort of haphazard difficult to implement timing system is nonsense, as you pointed out.
Quote from: siki on August 10, 2009, 10:55:28 PM
I live in Pakistan and there are at least three times in a year that people make a positive effort to look for the so called new moon (crescent) 1- we look for the crescent for so called Ramadan to start Ramadan, 2- we look out for crescent to end Ramadan, and this one is usually the favorite, because it signals the end of fasting and brings in the Ed festival next morning. 3- we look for crescent moon in the Islamic month of zul hajj, because this brings us a precise date for Hajj, and eid ul fittar.
On these three occasions, soon after sun set, you will find people/families gathered on roof tops, and making positive efforts to locate the crescent moon. We also did the same in our childhood.
All these years , I can only remember once that i ever saw a new crescent moon, and that also with great effort , and when i took my gaze/focus off and tried to relocate, I couldn't, despite knowing its exact location. It was there at same spot but i could see it again only with very positive consistent efforts.
After this I gave up sighting the moon, knowing that it is a very very difficult exercise, and no wonder , we have the official moon sighting committees in each province, consisting a bunch of Mullahs , positioned at towers/water tanks with star gazer telescopes. But yet they never find, or see it. And whenever they have announced a positive moon sighting, It is like this,
"From one hour up to 3 hours after sun set, The regular TV transmissions are interrupted, and the chief Mullah (head of the moon sighting committee) announce like this, "We have a witness reporting from so and so village confirming on oath that he did see the crescent , so hereby we confirm and announce the start of the month tomorrow, and fast/eid tomorrow"
Even today this is a regular practice, at least 20% of a 180 million nation, make some kind off effort to locate the crescent moon on these three occasions. And also, hundreds of experienced clerics divided in 5 groups for each province, look for it with specialised equipment at designated watch towers, but at the end make a mess of it. Because it boils down to a sole witness reporting from an unknown village, And when the committee reports no sighting or discredits the sightings reported by hallucinating individuals, we end up having two or three eids in the country ( :( that is almost every other year)
My Pakistani brothers and sisters, did i exaggerate?
:peace:
siki
You are 100 % correct :'(
Peace Siki,
You are da best :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
I am becoming a big fan of yours :) May The God bless you for your constant striving and thank you so much.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 13, 2009, 01:48:42 PM
Peace Siki,
You are da best :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
I am becoming a big fan of yours :) May The God bless you for your constant striving and thank you so much.
:handshake:
Peace,
Two quotes from Ayman:
?In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.?
?You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon. But he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
4:145 ? The hypocrites will be committed to the lowest pit of Hell, and you will find no one to help them.
The next thing to note are the two dates July 6, 2009 and the June 25, 2010. In 2009 Ayman?s year begins on July 6 (happy New Year) and in 2010 his new year begins on June 25. And he claims that his timing system is not arbitrary. He has an arbitrary and shifting reference timing system. Where is the equation for your convoluted timing system? Stop using the Naval observatory data or manmade astronomical data. USE YOUR SYSTEM ONLY TO CALCULATE DATE, HOURS, MINUTES. Show us the data you have gather thus far and the governing equations that predicts the orbit of earth and moon.
The next thing to note is that the month of July is not the hottest month of the year in the northern hemispheres. The hottest month is the month of August (dog days of August). This is because it takes time to heat land and ocean water starting from the longest day of June 21. It is common sense that the temperature of huge masses of water and land cannot be change instantly. This phenomenon is observed when one tries to boil water on stove. Now, this simple known fact is in contradiction with Ayman?s theory of scorching full-moon within 0-30 days after summer solstice.
The next thing to note is that in some years the full-moon will occur one, two, or three days prior to the summer solstice. How doest one make distinction between this full-moon and the one after the summer solstice. Especially when you remove the concept of calendar and utilize Ayman?s theory only ??..instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.? The answer is you cannot make such distinction, it is impossible. Try it.
Then the moon of July 6, 2009 is at 99%. And Ayman calls it a full-moon. Now we will apply same definition to the moon of July 8, 2009 which is also at 99%. Therefore it is also full-moon per Ayman?s definition. Now, Ayman?s theory begets two full-moons within one moon cycle. What a theory. What a convoluted mind.
39:19 ? With regard to those who have deserved the retribution, can you save those who are already in Hell?
If husband died today which calendar is used to count exactly one year with 12 equal months?
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/ancient-civilizations-use-sundials-1.jpg)
http://free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/240
Progressive Muslims 2:240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
http://free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/234
Progressive Muslims 2:234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.
Peace Rex,
Thank you for your question and a warm welcome to the forum.
Quote from: Rex on August 15, 2009, 01:56:30 PMIf husband died today which calendar is used to count exactly one year with 12 equal months?
There is no such thing as a year with 12 equal months. Even the useless lunar year will have months with 30 days and months with 29 days. So you need to reword your question.
Quote from: Rex on August 15, 2009, 01:56:30 PMhttp://free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/240
Progressive Muslims 2:240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
The word "year" doesn't occur in the passage and the word "until" is missing. The Arabic "7awl" more closely means cycle such as a crop cycle. It is used for example to describe the term for weaning a newborn in 2:233. The term for weaning a newborn is also described in 46:15. We can use 46:15 and 2:233 together to determine what the "7awl" is for a woman.
46:15: Pregnancy + Weaning = 30 full-moons
2:233: Weaning = 2 "7awl"
We know that the term of the pregnancy is 10 full-moons, therefore:
Weaning = 30 - 10 = 20 = 2 "7awl"
"7awl" = 10 full-moons
So in the case of a woman/newborn, the "7awl" is the woman's birthing term.
Quote from: Rex on August 15, 2009, 01:56:30 PMhttp://free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/234
Progressive Muslims 2:234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.
As we saw above, the "7awl" is equivalent to 10 full-moons so when 2:234 says "four full-moons and ten" it is another way of saying "four full-moons and a "7awl"". So going back to 2:240, we can see that it is a continuation of 2:234 and talks about remaining until the "7awl"/10 full-moons described above in 2:234. Indeed:
http://free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/242
2:242 It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may comprehend.Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: guest on August 15, 2009, 01:44:00 PM
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?[/color]
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon. But he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
4:145 ? The hypocrites will be committed to the lowest pit of Hell, and you will find no one to help them.
The next thing to note are the two dates July 6, 2009 and the June 25, 2010. In 2009 Ayman?s year begins on July 6 (happy New Year) and in 2010 his new year begins on June 25. And he claims that his timing system is not arbitrary. He has an arbitrary and shifting reference timing system. Where is the equation for your convoluted timing system? Stop using the Naval observatory data or manmade astronomical data. USE YOUR SYSTEM ONLY TO CALCULATE DATE, HOURS, MINUTES. Show us the data you have gather thus far and the governing equations that predicts the orbit of earth and moon.
The next thing to note is that the month of July is not the hottest month of the year in the northern hemispheres. The hottest month is the month of August (dog days of August). This is because it takes time to heat land and ocean water starting from the longest day of June 21. It is common sense that the temperature of huge masses of water and land cannot be change instantly. This phenomenon is observed when one tries to boil water on stove. Now, this simple known fact is in contradiction with Ayman?s theory of scorching full-moon within 0-30 days after summer solstice.
The next thing to note is that in some years the full-moon will occur one, two, or three days prior to the summer solstice. How doest one make distinction between this full-moon and the one after the summer solstice. Especially when you remove the concept of calendar and utilize Ayman?s theory only ??..instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.? The answer is you cannot make such distinction, it is impossible. Try it.
Then the moon of July 6, 2009 is at 99%. And Ayman calls it a full-moon. Now we will apply same definition to the moon of July 8, 2009 which is also at 99%. Therefore it is also full-moon per Ayman?s definition. Now, Ayman?s theory begets two full-moons within one moon cycle. What a theory. What a convoluted mind.
39:19 ? With regard to those who have deserved the retribution, can you save those who are already in Hell?
Salaam
I stopped contributing to this forum as I had my own grievances, but today I logged on only to say this : :handshake:
You are absolutely spot on and I would challenge all of Aymans cronies to spot their so called sharul Ramadan without the aid of manmade system. No wonder he has ignored your response
Siki goes on about chaos in a Pakistan of moon sighting and pays no attention to the fact that fifteen hundred years ago there was very little pollution in the world and spotting stars and new moon was not difficult. Stars were used for navigation and the moon for measuring the months; it?s only in the last two hundred years that the skies have started to be covered by light pollution as well as smog which makes it difficult to fully appreciate the beautiful night sky.
30:41 Free_Minds:
Pollution has appeared in the land and the sea by the hands of the people for what they earned. He will make them taste some of what they have done, perhaps they will revert.
By advocating a system of fasting according to each part of the world Ayman and his followers are working on a system which is described here:
Free_Minds:30:32
Or like those who split-up their system, and they became sects, each group happy with what it had.
Wishing all those who believe a very happy month of Ramadan :sun:
:peace:
Peace Rex,
Quote: ?If husband died today which calendar is used to count exactly one year with 12 equal months??
The answer is the lunar calendar.
One month = one moon cycle = 29.530 days (length of all months are 29.530 days)
One year = Twelve months = 12 moon cycles = 12 * 29.530 = 354.36 days.
Therefore, the count starts when the event is triggered and ends at 354.36 days after the trigger.
Example: Say the event occurred today at 10:00 AM. The end point is 354 days + 0.36 day (8.64 hrs.). The obligated period ends on 354th day at 6:38:24 PM.
Four months + 10 days =128.12 days. Therefore, if the event starts at 10:00 AM today, the end point is on 128 day at 12: 52:48 PM.
This is one way of looking at it. You can also map the time base on sunset as the start of the day. The principle is the same.
Peace,
Quotes from Ayman:
?....... The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6.........?
?........For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. ........?
The length of days between July 6, 2009 and June 25, 2010 is 354 days. This is lunar based timing system which does not synch up with the seasons. Ayman has disproved his own theory. Way to go Ayman! Thank you for helping me.
The difference between the Ayman's period and solar cycle is 11 days. He has invented the lunar cycle.
Since Ayman is using moon as the reference, the system has to be in synch with the lunar cycles. The issue is Ayman has no knowledge of it. He is clueless of what he did. How sad. He doesn't even know his own system.
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on August 16, 2009, 07:47:49 AMI stopped contributing to this forum as I had my own grievances, but today I logged on only to say this : :handshake:
You are absolutely spot on and I would challenge all of Aymans cronies to spot their so called sharul Ramadan without the aid of manmade system. No wonder he has ignored your response
I am sorry to hear that you are still bitter and I wish you peace.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: farida on August 16, 2009, 07:47:49 AM
Salaam
I stopped contributing to this forum as I had my own grievances, but today I logged on only to say this : :handshake:
You are absolutely spot on and I would challenge all of Aymans cronies to spot their so called sharul Ramadan without the aid of manmade system. No wonder he has ignored your response
Siki goes on about chaos in a Pakistan of moon sighting and pays no attention to the fact that fifteen hundred years ago there was very little pollution in the world and spotting stars and new moon was not difficult. Stars were used for navigation and the moon for measuring the months; it?s only in the last two hundred years that the skies have started to be covered by light pollution as well as smog which makes it difficult to fully appreciate the beautiful night sky.
30:41 Free_Minds:
Pollution has appeared in the land and the sea by the hands of the people for what they earned. He will make them taste some of what they have done, perhaps they will revert.
By advocating a system of fasting according to each part of the world Ayman and his followers are working on a system which is described here:
Free_Minds:30:32
Or like those who split-up their system, and they became sects, each group happy with what it had.
Wishing all those who believe a very happy month of Ramadan :sun:
:peace:
1000 x :bravo:
I wish the best of luck of luck and success for all those fasting in the month of Ramadan (Shahr Ramadan).
Peace :peace:
Peace farida,
I agree with your take on Ayman?s theory. Your view is appreciated by the believer. I wish you a very happy Ramadan.
I just spent ages reading and scratching my head trying to get to the bottom of this ramadan scorching heat business. I am now very confused. I was looking forward to Ramadan starting on the night of 20th Aug 2009 (there's a full moon pic on my calendar but it's an american/jewish calendar (another story!), and I'm in Europe, to add to the confusion!?!)
So... How long is the fast? I'm hearing 30 days, I'm reading 10 days. I'm reading full moon to the crescent (10 days) but a month is 30 days, Solar month (August) is 31 days, Lunar month is 28 days? Also then I'm reading here that with there being 4 resticted months or 4 restricted moons, I'm now worried it might be 4 months of fasting, but I must have read it wrong (I'm a bit confused about the numbers in the words eg 7aj and 7ajj what does this mean please?)
So maybe in 2:189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Ok I better not conjecture any further, that is indeed wrong, better get back to using my mind, heart, brain, eyes and ears and work out what I'm going to do about Ramadan this year! Insh'Allah next time I pray, as always, I will ask Allah to guide me aright and keep me off the wrong path, and surely if my intention is to fast purely for the sake of Allah even if I do not know whether it is for 10 days, 28 days, 30 days or 4 months, then better I do some rather than none.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
Ayman you causin alot of confusion. :confused: What is wrong wit you? Well when is Ramadan then and the date if it is different from what we all know.
No, ramadan is fairly known in the west and everywere........................................
Bring your proof....................
So you arnt going to fast in the 9th month? When do you? :hypno:
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 17, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
I just spent ages reading and scratching my head trying to get to the bottom of this ramadan scorching heat business. I am now very confused. I was looking forward to Ramadan starting on the night of 20th Aug 2009 (there's a full moon pic on my calendar but it's an american/jewish calendar (another story!), and I'm in Europe, to add to the confusion!?!)
So... How long is the fast? I'm hearing 30 days, I'm reading 10 days. I'm reading full moon to the crescent (10 days) but a month is 30 days, Solar month (August) is 31 days, Lunar month is 28 days? Also then I'm reading here that with there being 4 resticted months or 4 restricted moons, I'm now worried it might be 4 months of fasting, but I must have read it wrong (I'm a bit confused about the numbers in the words eg 7aj and 7ajj what does this mean please?)
So maybe in 2:189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Ok I better not conjecture any further, that is indeed wrong, better get back to using my mind, heart, brain, eyes and ears and work out what I'm going to do about Ramadan this year! Insh'Allah next time I pray, as always, I will ask Allah to guide me aright and keep me off the wrong path, and surely if my intention is to fast purely for the sake of Allah even if I do not know whether it is for 10 days, 28 days, 30 days or 4 months, then better I do some rather than none.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
The fast is for the entire month of Ramadan. So stay away from them pharesees and teachers. And it has been made well known so lets not let the matter fall into dispute...................
Peace Brothers and Sisters
I have been reading this thread for a while now. I see a debate going on but its going in circles. I also sense that many are not ready to research and accept research on face value when it comes to religion and see that its not the end to anything, its a theory at the end and if its logical good, if its not then you say thanks for your efforts.
I been reading the debate about summer solstice theory by Ayman. Very logical arguments so thank you for your research Ayman and may it continue.
I been reading the theory of the winter solstice by Layth in 'The Natural Republic'. Again very logical arguments so thank you Layth for your research may it continue. Just incase you are not familiar with TNR here is a summary:
The calendar of God is one that exists in nature and
which utilizes the entities of sun, moon and star to make a
perfect timing mechanism that is in-line with nature and
in-harmony with our movements through the universe.
? The year according to the Scripture is 365 days
(12:47, 17:12);
? The calendar system for the year is luni-solar
(17:12, 10:5);
? The most special event that occurs during the
year is the Night of Decree (97:4) which occurs
on the winter solstice.
? The count of the months begins with the full
moon (2:189, 36:39).
? The month of the winter solstice is known as
the month of ?Ramadhan? (2:185).
? The month of Ramadhan is ?Month-1? in the
Islamic calendar;
? Three months of Pilgrimage follow the month of
Ramadhan?all four months are restricted from
hunting any game, while domestic animals and the
catch of the sea are lawful (9:2-5, 2:217, 5:1, 5:96);
? After a count of 12 lunar months, if a 13th full
moon appears a full 30 days before the next
winter solstice, then such a month is to be
ignored and counted as ?month zero?.
We also have the lunar month theory which is well known and Ramadan the month that is the 9th lunar cycle. Again some good argument and points made by people defending this theory, please keep it up.
For us to be progressive and find the truth we need such research and debating forums. We must remain patient and be civil, and present theories and views in this manner and let the reader decide which is more logical.
May God lead us in the right path.
Peace
Hope
Peace Hope4,
Quote from: hope4 on August 17, 2009, 12:47:48 PMI been reading the debate about summer solstice theory by Ayman. Very logical arguments so thank you for your research Ayman and may it continue.
I been reading the theory of the winter solstice by Layth in 'The Natural Republic'. Again very logical arguments so thank you Layth for your research may it continue.
Sometime ago, I summerized the various points of view on this issue here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
If you notice, those who promote the traditional timing are the same folks who promote Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals. Those folks have the bigger issue of the only unforgivable sin of idolatry to worry about and timing should not be the highest priority issue for them anyway.
Unlike the traditional understanding in which everything is disconnected, so that for example the arbitrary timing has nothing special to do with the mindless pagan rituals that they call Hajj, the proper understanding connects all those issues.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 17, 2009, 04:58:25 PM
I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
Peace Ayman
I think you hit the nail on its head when you said people might be taking info too fast! I think people should digest the information given, do their own research and then make a logical decision.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 17, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
I just spent ages reading and scratching my head trying to get to the bottom of this ramadan scorching heat business. I am now very confused. I was looking forward to Ramadan starting on the night of 20th Aug 2009 (there's a full moon pic on my calendar but it's an american/jewish calendar (another story!), and I'm in Europe, to add to the confusion!?!)
So... How long is the fast? I'm hearing 30 days, I'm reading 10 days. I'm reading full moon to the crescent (10 days) but a month is 30 days, Solar month (August) is 31 days, Lunar month is 28 days? Also then I'm reading here that with there being 4 resticted months or 4 restricted moons, I'm now worried it might be 4 months of fasting, but I must have read it wrong (I'm a bit confused about the numbers in the words eg 7aj and 7ajj what does this mean please?)
So maybe in 2:189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Ok I better not conjecture any further, that is indeed wrong, better get back to using my mind, heart, brain, eyes and ears and work out what I'm going to do about Ramadan this year! Insh'Allah next time I pray, as always, I will ask Allah to guide me aright and keep me off the wrong path, and surely if my intention is to fast purely for the sake of Allah even if I do not know whether it is for 10 days, 28 days, 30 days or 4 months, then better I do some rather than none.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
Ramadan (for me at least) starts on August 21st. Dont let people confuse you - the fast lasts for 1 full lunar month.
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 17, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
So maybe in 2:189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
Salaam UmAlawi
You are right those who try to make a big thing out of small language understanding are trying to create confusion in a system which was established by the last prophet Mohammad for the whole world. No matter how divided people are they unite in fasting in the same lunar month and it has not been changed but just been given a year number by the Khalifa Umar who was no dictator but worked with the aid of people who were alive at the time of prophet Mohammad.
The introduction of corrupted ahadith can not provide an excuse to dismantle this most natural system where you would experience fasting in all seasons and comes back to the position it had in relation to the solar year approximately every 33 luner years. Thus the system synchronize back to the first event which took place in summer; the night of power: Surah 97. Power, Fate
1. We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power: Now look at the system advocated by Layth and Ayman who think they can understand the Qur?an with the help of a classic dictionary better then the prophet. :confused:
44:13 How is it that now they remember, while a clarifying messenger had come to them? :hmm
Imagine a system where blind people are not expected to fast in this blessed period the discriminatory system designed for those with vision ????
Imagine a system where there is no fasting if the sky is covered by the clouds so no sighting of the full moon thus no fasting ????
Imagine a system where "the new prophets" working out a Solstice full moon without the aid of man made system :rotfl:
(As pointed out by guest here: Quote from: guest on August 15, 2009, 06:44:00 PM)
Those who are genuinely interested in problem solving do not ignore vital points raised unless they have their own agenda. :!
Make the most of Ramdan which is a blessed month for the whole mankind. :peace:
Salam,
Quote from: farida on August 18, 2009, 08:16:16 AM
Imagine a system where there is no fasting if the sky is covered by the clouds so no sighting of the full moon thus no fasting ????
WOW... this must be the biggest clouds ever that cover the whole nation so no one can see the sky....
Quote from: arista on August 18, 2009, 09:06:08 AM
Salam,
WOW... this must be the biggest clouds ever that cover the whole nation so no one can see the sky....
Exactly! a regional based system depending on the full moon sighting :yay:
Londoner are likely to miss out as its mostly cloudy here :eat:
Salam,
Quote from: farida on August 18, 2009, 09:14:42 AM
Exactly! a regional based system depending on the full moon sighting :yay:
Londoner are likely to miss out as its mostly cloudy here :eat:
Who said about sighting only? Is it the same as sighting new moon just like tradisionalist do? If they cannot see the new moon why they can decide starting month (although with some difference in different region/sect) but can not decide if using full moon as marker? WHY?
Quote from: arista on August 18, 2009, 09:21:30 AM
Salam,
Who said about sighting only? Is it the same as sighting new moon just like tradisionalist do?
Salaam arista
For detailed explanation please read this thread, especially last year?s (2008) post. This long thread has all the answers and stubbourness of the "new" prophets .
QuoteIf they cannot see the new moon why they can decide starting month (although with some difference in different region/sect) but can not decide if using full moon as marker? WHY?
Full moon which lasts for few seconds :confused:
:peace:
Salam,
Quote from: farida on August 18, 2009, 09:34:55 AM
Salaam arista
For detailed explanation please read this thread, especially last year?s (2008) post. This long thread has all the answers and stubbourness of the "new" prophets . Full moon which lasts for few seconds :confused:
:peace:
New moon also lasts for few seconds... :confused: :peace:
Quote from: arista on August 18, 2009, 09:37:02 AM
Salam,
New moon also lasts for few seconds... :confused: :peace:
Of course so what's the difference, why claim that full moon is easy to spot :hmm
And only those who sight it should fast which could include a toddlers spoting the full moon. :rotfl:
You must read this thread to fully appreciate the jokes
:peace:
But Ayman, you still havent come to a conclution. It seems you are still only conjecturing and trying to find a way to prove your therom. I dont see what the big deal is on this one anyway... They say Ramadan start on the 21st ( my b-day :D). So when do you say it start? All you do is write all this conjecture and baseless stuff, and then tell us to find the conclution or whatever..... :peace:
Peace brothers and sisters
I hope that people in UK are watching the Debate on Moon sighting on Islamic channel. It seems they are all over the place on which day to start the fast. It seems like the birth of the new moon is the most difficult thing to sight. A logical argument is that why dont we use mathematical calculations to take over the sighting my eye. Seems logical but the panel is very split on this. Its very confusing and I am not sure that all sunni's are clear or able to agree on a start date. Mathematical calculations show that it is not possible to view the birth of the moon on Thursday or Friday night as the sun will obscure the view. There is a small window to sight it on Saturday, so fasting could start on saturday or sunday and I bet not all muslims will start on the same day, as a result eid wont be on the same day, how confusing is that. I really don't think the Umma is united which is a shame. I say this because If I start fasting according to my local mosque on saturday some of my friends might start earlier or later so we wont be able to celebrate Eid together. I remember a while back I sent a friend of mine a text to say Eid mubarak and he said eid is tomorrow, makes me feel if I followed the wrong advice. Oh well the debate goes on and unity goes begin.
Peace
Hope
Salaam Aleykum!
I am in Germany and this link
http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=146057 (http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=146057)
is showing that Thursday is forecast to be the hottest day. AND there is a symbol on my calendar on Thursday for Full Moon.
Coincidence?
:o)
Peace
Salam,
Quote from: farida on August 18, 2009, 09:46:04 AM
Of course so what's the difference, why claim that full moon is easy to spot :hmm
And only those who sight it should fast which could include a toddlers spoting the full moon. :rotfl:
You must read this thread to fully appreciate the jokes
:peace:
Can you answer these questions ?
1. When the authorities decide start month using new moon can you verify it by yourself?
2. When the authorities decide start month using full moon can you verify it by yourself?
I have read this thread and I think you are the one who miss the big picture.... Remember, some of tradisionalist insist that they MUST SPOT THE NEW MOON BEFORE BEGIN THE MONTH... and just like hope4 wrote.... "the Debate on Moon sighting".. Use your reason, can the conclusion of this debate minimize if we are using Full Moon instead of New Moon?
Britain's Muslim communities are preparing to start the holy month of Ramadan on different days because opinions are divided about the sighting of the new moon.
About half the country's Muslims will begin fasting on Friday morning, while the other half will delay the start until Saturday.
It is a similar story across the Muslim world, despite efforts each year to reach agreement.
The start of Ramadan begins when the new moon is sighted, according to Islamic texts from the age of the Prophet Mohammed.
Modern astronomy can calculate it more precisely and says the new moon arrives on Thursday evening.
Clerics in Birmingham are among those who have declared they will observe the astronomical times and fast from dawn on Friday.
But many other British Muslims will wait for the first physical sighting in Saudi Arabia to be relayed to London.
Overcast skies could delay this happening until Friday night, which means fasting will not start until Saturday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1657246.stm
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/time/moon/
I am trying to imagine how someone can possibly witness or even see the new moon. It looks like no moon to me.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on August 18, 2009, 08:00:13 PM
Britain's Muslim communities are preparing to start the holy month of Ramadan on different days because opinions are divided about the sighting of the new moon.
About half the country's Muslims will begin fasting on Friday morning, while the other half will delay the start until Saturday.
It is a similar story across the Muslim world, despite efforts each year to reach agreement.
The start of Ramadan begins when the new moon is sighted, according to Islamic texts from the age of the Prophet Mohammed.
Modern astronomy can calculate it more precisely and says the new moon arrives on Thursday evening.
Clerics in Birmingham are among those who have declared they will observe the astronomical times and fast from dawn on Friday.
But many other British Muslims will wait for the first physical sighting in Saudi Arabia to be relayed to London.
Overcast skies could delay this happening until Friday night, which means fasting will not start until Saturday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1657246.stm
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/time/moon/
I am trying to imagine how someone can possibly witness or even see the new moon. It looks like no moon to me.
Peace
Hope
Interesting. So when will you begin?
More info on the rising and setting of the moon phases:
rising, setting & phases
q: At what time of day or night does the moon rise in each of it's phases?
a: The new moon rises and sets together with the Sun. During a lunation of 29.5 days, as the Moon passes through a full cycle of phases, it rises roughly 50 minutes later each night. By first quarter it rises around midday and sets around midnight. When it reaches full it will be up from sunset to sunrise, more or less. And by last quarter it will rise at midnight and set at noon, roughly speaking, before, as it approaches another new moon, its rising and setting times converge again with those of the Sun.
http://www.inconstantmoon.com/qna_move.htm
It would appear from this information that the full moon stays in the sky the longest , thus the most visible phase of the moon.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: Rev.John on August 18, 2009, 08:08:04 PM
Interesting. So when will you begin?
A little confused at th moment Rev.John. However, I am travelling from 20th till 22nd so wont start fasting till Sunday God willing.
Peace
Hope
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on August 15, 2009, 01:44:00 PMTwo quotes from Ayman:
?In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.?
?You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon.
Wow! You found a major contradiction in my understanding :& . I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet. I will go back to be Sunni again because as Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. But wait, it's a miracle, :o here are the exact dates without using any human calendar:
This year the night of the fast was:
The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice Next year the night of the fast will be:
The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice The year after the night of the fast will be:
The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice Etc. Etc. Etc.
There. People can know exactly when to start fasting with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some guy.
Quote from: guest on August 15, 2009, 01:44:00 PMBut he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
Now your turn. You or any of the other thinly disguised Sunnis hypocritically pretending to follow the great reading:
Please give the timing of the start of the fast with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some "rightly guided" guy. WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT AND WHETHER I FORBID IT OR NOT, YOU CAN'T AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO IT PERIOD. :jedi:
Until you can do this, you will be ignored as anyone constantly babbling silliness should be.
Peace,
Ayman
I think the following verse demonstrate that years are solars, this can be a key argument in favour of Ayman's theory.
12:47 (yusuf ali)
Joseph said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear― except a little, of which ye shall eat.
قَالَ تَزْرَعُونَ سَبْعَ سِنِينَ دَأَبًا فَمَا حَصَدْتُمْ فَذَرُوهُ فِي سُنْبُلِهِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِمَّا تَأْكُلُونَ
This verse definitly links years to seasons, therefore in my modest comprehension Ramadan has to be fix.
Peace
Quote from: herbman on August 19, 2009, 05:30:07 AM
I think the following verse demonstrate that years are solars, this can be a key argument in favour of Ayman's theory.
12:47 (yusuf ali)
Joseph said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear― except a little, of which ye shall eat.
قَالَ تَزْرَعُونَ سَبْعَ سِنِينَ دَأَبًا فَمَا حَصَدْتُمْ فَذَرُوهُ فِي سُنْبُلِهِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِمَّا تَأْكُلُونَ
This verse definitly links years to seasons, therefore in my modest comprehension Ramadan has to be fix.
Peace
So I still have no idea when it should start. ??? ???
Quote from: Rev.John on August 19, 2009, 09:25:26 AM
So I still have no idea when it should start. ??? ???
21st August. If your're going to fast, then make sure that you eat and drink a lot on the night before.
Quote from: ayman on August 15, 2009, 09:30:00 PM
Thank you for your question and a warm welcome to the forum.
There is no such thing as a year with 12 equal months. Even the useless lunar year will have months with 30 days and months with 29 days. So you need to reword your question.
Thanks. To restate historic evidence shows calendar was in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558
Arabic text
Dots and hamzas added; otherwise, spelling uncorrected.
1. بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم هذا ما اخذ عبد اله
2. ابن جبر واصحبه من الجزر من اهنس
3. من خليفة تدراق ابن ابو قير الاصغر ومن خليفة اصطفر ابن ابو قير الاكبر خمسين شاة
4. من الجزر وخمس عشرة شاة اخرى اجزرها اصحاب سفنه وكتئبه وثقلاءه في
5. شهر جمدى الاولى من سنة اثنين وعشرين وكتبه ابن حديدو
1. In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is what `Abdallah,
2. Son of Jabir, and his companions-in-arms, have taken as of slaughter sheep at Heracleopolis (Ihnas)
3. from a representative of Theodorakios (Tidraq), second son of Apa Kyros (Abu Qir), and from a substitute of Christophoros (Istufur), eldest son of Apa Kyros (Abu Qir), fifty sheep
4. as of slaughter and fifteen other sheep. He gave them for slaughter for the crew of his vessels, as well as his cavalry and his breastplated infantry in
5. the month of
Jumada I in the year twenty-two. Written by Ibn Hadidu.
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643
If the above is correct then new month calculated 2/3 days after new moon align with event 10 years earlier.
New Moon
1/27/632 25-Feb
26-Mar
25-Apr
24-May Rabi' al-awwal 5/26 -
death of prophet (pbuh) 8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal) 23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
23-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
21-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
20-Sep 7. Rajab
19-Oct 8. Sha'aban
17-Nov 9. Ramadan
17-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/15/633 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
15-Mar 1. Muharram
14-Apr 2. Safar
13-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
12-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
12-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
10-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
9-Sep 7. Rajab
9-Oct 8. Sha'aban
7-Nov 9. Ramadan
7-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/5/634 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
5-Mar 1. Muharram
3-Apr 2. Safar
3-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
1-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
1-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
30-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
29-Aug 7. Rajab
28-Sep 8. Sha'aban
27-Oct 9. Ramadan
26-Nov 10. Shawwal
26-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/24/635 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
23-Feb 1. Muharram
24-Mar 2. Safar
22-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
22-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
20-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
19-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
18-Aug 7. Rajab
17-Sep 8. Sha'aban
17-Oct 9. Ramadan
15-Nov 10. Shawwal
15-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/14/636 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
12-Feb 1. Muharram
13-Mar 2. Safar
11-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
9-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Aug 7. Rajab
5-Sep 8. Sha'aban
5-Oct 9. Ramadan
3-Nov 10. Shawwal
3-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/2/637 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1-Feb 1. Muharram
2-Mar 2. Safar
1-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Jul 7. Rajab
25-Aug 8. Sha'aban
24-Sep 9. Ramadan
23-Oct 10. Shawwal
22-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
22-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/21/638 1. Muharram
19-Feb 2. Safar
21-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
20-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
19-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
17-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
17-Jul 7. Rajab
15-Aug 8. Sha'aban
13-Sep 9. Ramadan
13-Oct 10. Shawwal
11-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
11-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/10/639 1. Muharram
8-Feb 2. Safar
10-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
9-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
7-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Jul 7. Rajab
5-Aug 8. Sha'aban
3-Sep 9. Ramadan
2-Oct 10. Shawwal
1-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
30-Dec 1. Muharram
1/28/640 2. Safar
27-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
28-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
27-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-May 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Jun 7. Rajab
24-Jul 8. Sha'aban
23-Aug 9. Ramadan
21-Sep 10. Shawwal
20-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Dec 1. Muharram
1/17/641 2. Safar
15-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
17-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
16-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-May 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Jun 7. Rajab
13-Jul 8. Sha'aban
12-Aug 9. Ramadan
11-Sep 10. Shawwal
10-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
8-Dec 1. Muharram
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar Jumada al-awwal begins 3/27
24-Apr
April 25 PERF 558 There is no need to forge above dates or the receipt of sheep in two languages.
Who uses a Solar calender? I thought the gregorian, "Islamic", and lunar calenders were used in Arabic. O0
here is the link to the PERF document provided by Rex, details can be very well seen.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
peace
Quote from: hope4 on August 18, 2009, 06:37:00 PM
Peace brothers and sisters
I hope that people in UK are watching the Debate on Moon sighting on Islamic channel. It seems they are all over the place on which day to start the fast. It seems like the birth of the new moon is the most difficult thing to sight. A logical argument is that why dont we use mathematical calculations to take over the sighting my eye. Seems logical but the panel is very split on this. Its very confusing and I am not sure that all sunni's are clear or able to agree on a start date. Mathematical calculations show that it is not possible to view the birth of the moon on Thursday or Friday night as the sun will obscure the view. There is a small window to sight it on Saturday, so fasting could start on saturday or sunday and I bet not all muslims will start on the same day, as a result eid wont be on the same day, how confusing is that. I really don't think the Umma is united which is a shame. I say this because If I start fasting according to my local mosque on saturday some of my friends might start earlier or later so we wont be able to celebrate Eid together. I remember a while back I sent a friend of mine a text to say Eid mubarak and he said eid is tomorrow, makes me feel if I followed the wrong advice. Oh well the debate goes on and unity goes begin.
Peace
Hope
Salaam Hope
I am sorry I do not watch Islam TV or any other money making channel, nor do I attend any such Mosque ( still searching for a Mosque built on Tawqa). Quibbles among so called Islamic scholars is nothing new and must not become a source of despair for Muslims as Satan uses such tactics to divert us from the right path
You are worried about a possible delay in fasting for a day of two; according to Ayman?s system fasting is months apart according to the regions. please study this thread: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.720
Quote from: Nun de plume on October 16, 2008, 05:16:00 AM
Also, which summaer months, North or South America ? Chicago or Buenos Aires?
Reply from Ayman:
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres.....everyone having their own seasonal Leilat ul Qadr
:peace:
Quote from: arista on August 18, 2009, 07:05:15 PM
Salam,
Can you answer these questions ?
1. When the authorities decide start month using new moon can you verify it by yourself?
2. When the authorities decide start month using full moon can you verify it by yourself?
I have read this thread and I think you are the one who miss the big picture.... Remember, some of tradisionalist insist that they MUST SPOT THE NEW MOON BEFORE BEGIN THE MONTH... and just like hope4 wrote.... "the Debate on Moon sighting".. Use your reason, can the conclusion of this debate minimize if we are using Full Moon instead of New Moon?
Salaam
Your questions are answered in detail in this link : http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg213934#msg213934
Since we are suppose to do our own research and not follow others blindly I would suggest you study all posts by EId , Pseudo, Nun and Rex in response to Ayman?s claim.
:peace:
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 03:06:27 AM
Peace Guest,
Wow! You found a major contradiction in my understanding :& . I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet. I will go back to be Sunni again because as Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. But wait, it's a miracle, :o here are the exact dates without using any human calendar:
This year the night of the fast was: The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Next year the night of the fast will be: The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
The year after the night of the fast will be: The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Etc. Etc. Etc.
There. People can know exactly when to start fasting with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some guy.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
How did you work that out? Do we have any indication in the Quran as to how? since we do know how to work out the time for dawn and night , but I can't see anywhere how to work out the summer solstice
However the summer solstice has been known for millenniae so how was the exact time of the Solstice calculated?
Well the Time Team research shows that in early Bronze Age people painstakingly built the Stone Henge to calculate the longest and shortest day of the year... a man made monument unless you thinks some god placed Stone Henge there for you to calculate the Summer Solstice. (A pagan belief)
For the latest Winter Solistices Discovery at Baltray a monument build by ancient civilization, legend and folklore check this link; http://www.mythicalireland.com/ancientsites/baltray/solstice.html
:peace:
Quote from: herbman on August 19, 2009, 05:30:07 AM
I think the following verse demonstrate that years are solars, this can be a key argument in favour of Ayman's theory.
12:47 (yusuf ali)
Joseph said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear― except a little, of which ye shall eat.
قَالَ تَزْرَعُونَ سَبْعَ سِنِينَ دَأَبًا فَمَا حَصَدْتُمْ فَذَرُوهُ فِي سُنْبُلِهِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِمَّا تَأْكُلُونَ
This verse definitly links years to seasons, therefore in my modest comprehension Ramadan has to be fix.
Peace
Salaam herbman
Yes this verse talks of
Sineen which as I understand it is the measurement of a year linked to the seasons and relating to harvesting and draught see also 7:130 وَلَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ بِالسِّنِينَ وَنَقْصٍ مِنَ الثَّمَرَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَذَّكَّرُونَ
So far I have noticed that the term Sineen is a seasonal year (soli-lunar), when both the moon and the sun are taken to calculate the year as in 10:5
هُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ الشَّمْسَ ضِيَاءً وَالْقَمَرَ نُورًا وَقَدَّرَهُ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعْلَمُوا عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ ذَلِكَ إِلا بِالْحَقِّ يُفَصِّلُ الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ
The other world is
AAam which is used in other instances like in surah 9:28 related to the Sacred Mosque etc 9:28
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ
In one place both terms, related to years, is used: 29:14
وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَى قَوْمِهِ فَلَبِثَ فِيهِمْ أَلْفَ
سَنَةٍ إِلا خَمْسِينَ
عَامًا فَأَخَذَهُمُ الطُّوفَانُ وَهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ
I think we need to work out these two types of years used to finally understand the count of years.
:peace:
2:185 The Shahr Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the shahr shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
We are asked to fast IN "Shahr Ramadan" (the month of Ramadan). You (Ayman) say that "shahr" means "full-moon", but HOW CAN YOU FAST IN A FULL-MOON?!
Peace Eid/Pseudo/Nun/Rex,
Quote from: Rex on August 19, 2009, 09:58:59 AM
24-May Rabi' al-awwal 5/26 - death of prophet (pbuh) 8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal)
23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
How do you know that the prophet died on 12 of Rabi' Al-Awwal and not 10 of Rabi' Al-Thani or even in a different year?
You are following nothing but conjecture based on circular arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: farida on August 19, 2009, 12:22:17 PM
Salaam Hope
I am sorry I do not watch Islam TV or any other money making channel, nor do I attend any such Mosque ( still searching for a Mosque built on Tawqa).
Salams, hope i did the quote correctly, i'm a bit new to this.
I found this online mosque, which is a great idea for us to be able to pray together instead of being a Billy No Mates on the day of the Congregational Prayer. I'm talking about Jum'aah of course! :o)
Here is the online mosque: They do a Khutbah and you can play the audio file or read it.
http://www.horizonsmosque.webs.com/
Salams and peace :o)
Peace everyone,
How to determine the solstice is clearly described in 17:12:
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar and tells us exactly how to know the year.
As for hypocrites who claim that using the sun for timing is "pagan", I would suggest that they act accordingly and sleep and work at random arbitrary times during the day and stop following the seasons and not take a summer vacation ot plant crops etc. etc. and should just follow the completely useless and arbitrary manmade lunar calendar that is 100% dependent on the manmade order of the months and when was year 0 made to start by some guy.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 19, 2009, 12:43:15 PM
2:185 The Shahr Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness witnessed the shahr shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
We are asked to fast IN "Shahr Ramadan" (the month of Ramadan). You (Ayman) say that "shahr" means "full-moon", but HOW CAN YOU FAST IN A FULL-MOON?!
This has already been discussed numerous times on this thread. You are providing a false translation. The verb is in the perfect past tense so it should be witnessed. How can you fast after you witnessed a month? This means that you can only fast after the month is over. So clearly and logically, 2:185 is talking about witnessing an EVENT that triggers the fast and not a month.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 19, 2009, 01:02:31 PM
Salams, hope i did the quote correctly, i'm a bit new to this.
I found this online mosque, which is a great idea for us to be able to pray together instead of being a Billy No Mates on the day of the Congregational Prayer. I'm talking about Jum'aah of course! :o)
Here is the online mosque: They do a Khutbah and you can play the audio file or read it.
http://www.horizonsmosque.webs.com/
Salams and peace :o)
Also relevant: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598320.0
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 01:10:49 PM
Peace Progressive1993,
This has already been discussed numerous times on this thread. You are providing a false translation. The verb is in the perfect past tense so it should be witnessed. How can you fast after you witnessed a month? This means that you can only fast after the month is over. So clearly and logically, 2:185 is talking about witnessing an EVENT that triggers the fast and not a month.
Peace,
Ayman
This doesn't change much, does it? HOW CAN YOU FAST
IN the so-called "moon of scorching heat"?! Please dont try to avoid this question again, which is, btw, obvious refutation of your claim.
Concerning the past tense thing...
Many, many... phrases in the Quran are in past tense, such as the splitting of the moon and God speaking with Jesus on J-day, although both, looking at it from Muhammad's time, are in the future - how do you explain that?
The thing is that the past tense signifies
certainty. God knows everything and he was certain that the moon was going to be split, so he made the phrase it past tense.
The usage of the past tense in 2:185 can also signify that people already witnessed the moon before the revelation of the Quran - remember that fasting was practiced before the revelation of the Quran.
From submission.org/fasting-bible.html:
Jeremiah 36:6. "Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities." Here we find a definite practice of fasting. The following verses will show that this is not just a day of fasting, but precisely a month.
More detail on this day of fasting is given in verse nine: "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month. The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting. Indeed, God did not lie when he said:
2:183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you
as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware.
Ayman, do you have any evidence of monotheists having fasted after witnessing the "moon of scorching heat"?? Do you have ANY evidence? I showed you my evidence for the real Ramadan - not the fabricated, one-third "Ramadan" of yours. Are you still going to reject the real Ramadan, and not fast for a full month - not just your lousy 10 days?
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 01:06:22 PM
Peace everyone,
How to determine the solstice is clearly described in 17:12:
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar and tells us exactly how to know the year.
As for hypocrites who claim that using the sun for timing is "pagan", I would suggest that they act accordingly and sleep and work at random arbitrary times during the day and stop following the seasons and not take a summer vacation ot plant crops etc. etc. and should just follow the completely useless and arbitrary manmade lunar calendar that is 100% dependent on the manmade order of the months and when was year 0 made to start by some guy.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِتَبْتَغُوا فَضْلا مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُوا عَدَدَ
السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلا
17:12 is clearly about
Sineen a term used mainly in relation to draught and harvesting, here seeking bounty during the day and calculating
السِّنِينَ Here you may know the number of years and the calculation for harvesting (as I understand a year made up of four season) but for the month,full moon cycle (Shahar)from one cresent to the next is to be taken into consideration. Nothing less nothing more just twelve months in God's record, no skipping or adding 13th No adjustment ,9:37.......
in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful .......Call it what ever you want to but just twelve moon cycle.
9:36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
:peace:
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 19, 2009, 01:30:18 PMThis doesn't change much, does it? HOW CAN YOU FAST IN the so-called "moon of scorching heat"?! Please dont try to avoid this question again, which is, btw, obvious refutation of your claim.
First of all where does the word "in" (Arabic "fi") occurs in the passage. Please underline it in the Arabic. You are again making a false claim. I already answered many times on this thread the question about how to fast the schorching full moon so try to read. Here it is one more time for you:
How to fast the scorching full-moon is given in 2:184-187. We are told to fast from food and drink and sexual activities from daybreak until night (which starts at sunset) the complete count of a few days (ten days).
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 19, 2009, 01:30:18 PMConcerning the past tense thing...
Many, many... phrases in the Quran are in past tense, such as the splitting of the moon and God speaking with Jesus on J-day, although both, looking at it from Muhammad's time, are in the future - how do you explain that?
The thing is that the past tense signifies certainty. God knows everything and he was certain that the moon was going to be split, so he made the phrase it past tense.
While the god knows the future, this is a command for humans. Are you saying that humans also know everything about the future? "Shahid"/"witnessed" is in the perfect past tense but "yasum"/"fast" is in the present tense.
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 19, 2009, 01:30:18 PMThe usage of the past tense in 2:185 can also signify that people already witnessed the moon before the revelation of the Quran - remember that fasting was practiced before the revelation of the Quran.
Here your contradictions are exposed. You are forced to change your words from "month" to "moon" because you know that "witnessed a month" is illogical nonsense and it is impossible to witness a month and then fast in it.
Also, your idea is pure nonsense because it implies that "whoever witnessed the month before revelation shall go back in time and fast it".
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 17, 2009, 04:58:25 PM
Peace Hope4,
Sometime ago, I summerized the various points of view on this issue here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
If you notice, those who promote the traditional timing are the same folks who promote Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals. Those folks have the bigger issue of the only unforgivable sin of idolatry to worry about and timing should not be the highest priority issue for them anyway.
Unlike the traditional understanding in which everything is disconnected, so that for example the arbitrary timing has nothing special to do with the mindless pagan rituals that they call Hajj, the proper understanding connects all those issues.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
All of us dont know the traditional timing, so mayby you should spend alittle time on explaining it. And everyone who has read the great reading does not know that the so-called traditional point of view has zero support in Quran. The new era was not made to start according to a different marker. The begining of the new era was not set to 3 years earlier. And right now, not only are sectarians are fasting a completly random month ( or whole month), but monothests are fasting it also. And according to 17:12, (1) night and (2) day are two signs; so that you may know the number of years and the count ( not (1) day and (2) night as you put it. And the year being solar is not a fact, it is only some therom of yours. 17:12 is not enuff to prove the year is solar exspeasially when 17:12 doesnt go with your saying because you turned the words around and you make it as there was the sign of day first and then came the sign of night when 17:12 says otherwise. And the count is not already known as 30 or 29 days. Nor is it known as 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0r 10 days using your false interpretation of 2:184 or a month. And the night of decree does not fall in the other months other than ramadan, just like days 29-31 dont fall in the month febuary.
This is what has prompted you to search for a better point of view or ( seperate) based on the Quran. It seems like you the only one creatin a " sectary Ramadan." To God we all will be gathered. This is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute. According to 2:185 the Quran was descended sometime in the month of ramadan. 87:1 says it was sent down in the night of decree. Putting 2:185 and 97:1 together we can conclude that the night of decree is in the month of ramadan. What month was it and what day/or night was it the quran came down is the questions and answers. According to 2:185 the abtenence is for the entire month of ramadan. As long as it is ramadan we are to be fasting.
Gotta go, later. :jedi: :peace:
Peace all
As it turns out, the symbol I thought was for full moon on my calendar is not the symbol for full moon, it is the symbol for new moon! How bizarre, confusing :confused: and embarrasing! The full moon was on 6th August.
Also here is a link to the summer solstice dates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice
And the Full Moon Dates: http://www.ewpnet.com/full-moon.htm
I have just been trying to work out how Ayman worked out about his suggestion that the fast should have been on the 7th July (first full moon after the summer solstice which was 21 June)
I get that now, but Ayman, how come you refer to it being 10 days and not 30 days? You mentioned a "few" days and then after it, in brackets, you put 10 days.
Thanks
Peace
Peace UmAlawi,
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 19, 2009, 04:46:51 PMI get that now, but Ayman, how come you refer to it being 10 days and not 30 days? You mentioned a "few" days and then after it, in brackets, you put 10 days.
According to 2:184, the fast is for a few (3-10) days ("ayyam ma3doodat"). We are then told in 2:185 to complete the count. The complete count of a few (3-10) is 10. This is further confirmed by the fact that the term "complete 10" used in 2:196. Also, 28:27 talks about completing 10. Thus, in 2:185 the complete count is 10 days.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
First of all where does the word "in" (Arabic "fi") occurs in the passage. Please underline it in the Arabic. You are again making a false claim. I already answered many times on this thread the question about how to fast the schorching full moon so try to read. Here it is one more time for you:
I know that - doesnt change anything about the timing of Ramadan. What you are saying is irrelevant stuff about HOW to fast - not WHEN to fast.
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
How to fast the scorching full-moon is given in 2:184-187. We are told to fast from food and drink and sexual activities from daybreak until night (which starts at sunset) the complete count of a few days (ten days).
You didnt get my point, again. How can you fast IN the moon?! You can fast IN the MONTH. Have fun fasting IN the MOON.
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
While the god knows the future, this is a command for humans. Are you saying that humans also know everything about the future? "Shahid"/"witnessed" is in the perfect past tense but "yasum"/"fast" is in the present tense.
You didnt get my example using cross-reference (tasreef) for usage of past-tense in the Quran. If you didnt understand I'll elaborate for you tomorrow again. I have no time now.
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
Here your contradictions are exposed. You are forced to change your words from "month" to "moon" because you know that "witnessed a month" is illogical nonsense and it is impossible to witness a month and then fast in it.
It was a typo - I meant month. That typo probably made your day...
Quote from: ayman on August 19, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
Also, your idea is pure nonsense because it implies that "whoever witnessed the month before revelation shall go back in time and fast it".
You logic is filled with nonsense, and, of course, you didnt pay attention to my example(s) - how new. I'll elaborate on this tomorrow again - just for you ;D
Peace
and happy Ramadan ;D
:peace:
Peace Brother Ayman
I don't speak/understand Arabic, so it's difficult for me to know which words mean what, when trying to compare the translations. Does "ma3doodat" in Arabic specifically mean 3-10? Is that a known fact to arabic speaking people or is it something you have deduced from being able to find the same word elsewhere in the Qur'an?
Also, I think I just had a lightbulb moment?! Are you saying that :
1.Hajj and Ramadan are not 2 separate things
and
2.the (mis)translation of (full)Moon as Month has made people mistakenly believe that they have to fast for 30 days / a full month instead of the 10 days that is mentioned in the Hajj section?
So you are suggesting it's like this: If you witness a Summer Solstice, wait for the next full moon, then fast for 10 days and coincide it with the pilgrimage/feast/festival/debate if you can afford it.
?
Thanks
Peace
Peace UmAlawi,
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 19, 2009, 05:34:21 PMI don't speak/understand Arabic, so it's difficult for me to know which words mean what, when trying to compare the translations. Does "ma3doodat" in Arabic specifically mean 3-10? Is that a known fact to arabic speaking people or is it something you have deduced from being able to find the same word elsewhere in the Qur'an?
Yes, in Arabic "ma3doodat" means few, while "3adida" means many. This is well known. It is typically used for things that can be counted on the fingers. This is probably where the maximum of 10 came from. As I explained above, the complete count of "ma3doodat" being 10 can also be deduced from other places in the great reading.
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 19, 2009, 05:34:21 PMAlso, I think I just had a lightbulb moment?! Are you saying that :
1.Hajj and Ramadan are not 2 separate things
They are not completely separate. The first restricted full-moon (the one after the solstice) marks the fast and the next three restricted full-moons mark the feast/"hajj" (four restricted full-moons alltogether). The period for both the fast and easch feast is 10 days, ending when the crescent appears. This is also described in both 36:39. We are told that the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil"). 36:39 specifically states that the moon is measured in descending stages until it becomes like an old curved sheath (i.e., a crescent). So what shape does the moon descend from in stages until it becomes a crescent? clearly this can only be the full-moon. This is also how the crescents provide the timing for the "hajj" per 2:189. It is the timing for ending the "hajj". This is why we are told in 2:189 to enter from the front doors (the clear obvious full-moon). However, we can exit from the dim and unobvious back doors (the crescent).
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 19, 2009, 05:34:21 PMand
2.the (mis)translation of (full)Moon as Month has made people mistakenly believe that they have to fast for 30 days / a full month instead of the 10 days that is mentioned in the Hajj section?
Yes. The 10 days for the fast and the feast/"hajj" are consistent and the timing mechanism is the same. Those who advocate the manmade traditional timing on this have completely ignored the god's words and their "hajj" has NOTHING to do with the crescent. It starts on 8th of Dhu Al-Hajjah (not with the crescent) and ends not with the crescent either in complete violation of 2:189.
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 19, 2009, 05:34:21 PMSo you are suggesting it's like this: If you witness a Summer Solstice, wait for the next full moon, then fast for 10 days and coincide it with the pilgrimage/feast/festival/debate if you can afford it.
You are partially right. It is like this:
Wait for the first full-moon after the summer solstice, then fast for 10 days.
Wait for the next full-moon then have a feast where you gather people to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor.
Wait for the next full-moon then have another feast.
Wait for the next full-moon then have another feast.
Alltogether a period marked by four inviolable full-moons where hunting wild lifeis not allowed.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
Following is the data for average monthly temperatures in USA:
http://www.met.utah.edu/jhorel/html/wx/climate/maxtemp.html
As everyone can clearly see that although in some places August is slightly hotter than July, in majority of places and overall on an average July is hotter than August. The shahr ramadhan/nearly full-moon of the scorching heat is therefore the one immediately following the summer solstice and not the one in August.
Salaam UmAlaw
Let me give you a scenario; let?s say that a group of Ayman?s followers and one ?Sunni ?were travelling in a ship but they get stranded on an Island just like in the movie ?Blue Lagoon?. They have no idea where they are (hemisphere?) they have no modern device to keep track of time all they know is that when they left "the Sunnies" were about to end fasting.
In that Island when ?Sunni? saw the crescent he knew that Ramadan has ended and starts to cut a piece of coconut in the shape of crescent every time he sees the new moon.
The group could work out dawn when they see night light separating from the day and they can also work out night after the sunset .They can also estimate midday when the sun is high and no shadow. All of them can clearly see full moon to keep track of months. Working out the seasons is a bit tricky as it is a tropical place, but they can see the signs of spring and summer and autumn and winter.
After collecting eleven crescents the ?Sunni? starts his fast but for the rest of the group they have to first work out the summer Solstice in order to start fasting. :confused:
How would they do that?
:peace:
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 19, 2009, 04:35:33 PM
Peace,
All of us dont know the traditional timing, so mayby you should spend alittle time on explaining it. And everyone who has read the great reading does not know that the so-called traditional point of view has zero support in Quran. The new era was not made to start according to a different marker. The begining of the new era was not set to 3 years earlier. And right now, not only are sectarians are fasting a completly random month ( or whole month), but monothests are fasting it also. And according to 17:12, (1) night and (2) day are two signs; so that you may know the number of years and the count ( not (1) day and (2) night as you put it. And the year being solar is not a fact, it is only some therom of yours. 17:12 is not enuff to prove the year is solar exspeasially when 17:12 doesnt go with your saying because you turned the words around and you make it as there was the sign of day first and then came the sign of night when 17:12 says otherwise. And the count is not already known as 30 or 29 days. Nor is it known as 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0r 10 days using your false interpretation of 2:184 or a month. And the night of decree does not fall in the other months other than ramadan, just like days 29-31 dont fall in the month febuary.
This is what has prompted you to search for a better point of view or ( seperate) based on the Quran. It seems like you the only one creatin a " sectary Ramadan." To God we all will be gathered. This is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute. According to 2:185 the Quran was descended sometime in the month of ramadan. 87:1 says it was sent down in the night of decree. Putting 2:185 and 97:1 together we can conclude that the night of decree is in the month of ramadan. What month was it and what day/or night was it the quran came down is the questions and answers. According to 2:185 the abtenence is for the entire month of ramadan. As long as it is ramadan we are to be fasting.
Gotta go, later. :jedi: :peace:
Continuation,
As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2:185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2:184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2:185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month. These are just some problems with you and your followers understanding and I am sure there are more.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat."
What is traditional timing? How does the traditional point of view have zero support in the Quran? How does tradional timing assume that the word "ramadan" in 2:185 is meaningless and that the god could have said "bla bla bla," as long as it come after the month shaaban? What do you mean it assums the god could have said bla bla bla? How is traditional timing 100% arbitary? What do you mean " secetarian ramadan?" If the Islamic calender didnt start when the prophet muhamad made pilgramage to medina in 622 AD, the beginning of the Hijra, then when did it start? And who or what is Muharram? What do you mean Muharram was selected? Selected by whom of what? How is the order of the months in this new era completly arbitary? What do you mean day and night are a function of the sun and not of the moon? Is the year solar or luni-solar? And what is luni-solar? And how does traditional timing violate 9:36? Do you count exactly 12 months/or a year using a solar calender? And how much is 12.3 months again; is that like a year and 3 months, or 12 months and 3 days/weeks/months??? And how does traditional timing creat a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1? And what does 97:1 - the similar verse- have to do with us fasting the month of ramadan and obeying 2:185-the governing verse? And could you please explain how us knowing that the count is 30 or 29 days make both the so-called "any number" and " completing the count" useless and unesessary information? ???
O0
Peace everyone,
Quote from: farida on August 20, 2009, 08:36:02 AM
Let me give you a scenario; let?s say that a group of Ayman?s followers and one ?Sunni ?were travelling in a ship but they get stranded on an Island just like in the movie ?Blue Lagoon?. They have no idea where they are (hemisphere?)
It does not matter what hemisphere they are in. All they have to do is wait for summer.
Quotethey have no modern device to keep track of time all they know is that when they left "the Sunnies" were about to end fasting.
QuoteIn that Island when ?Sunni? saw the crescent he knew that Ramadan has ended and starts to cut a piece of coconut in the shape of crescent every time he sees the new moon. After collecting eleven crescents the ?Sunni? starts his fast
When "the sunnies" were about to end fast is completely arbitrary dependent on when their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar and when their god Umar decided the month of abstinence to arbitrarily be. Had their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar earlier, the sunni worshippers of Umar would be abstaining in a different part of the solar year depending on when their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar. Also had their god Umar decided on a different order of the lunar months arbitrarily, their month of abstinence would have been in a different part of the solar year. This arbitrary choice of when to start the lunar calendar and the arbitrary order of the lunar months has no basis in the great reading and observation of the period of abstinence based on such arbitrary man made calendars is therefore complete idolatry.
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?
28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.For those on the island who serve the god alone instead of Umar, when the pagan sunnies end their abstinence is of no use and completely irrelevent. Also "eleven crescents" would be approximately five and a half lunar cycles because both waning and waxing phases of the moon are crescents.
QuoteThe group could work out dawn when they see night light separating from the day and they can also work out night after the sunset .They can also estimate midday when the sun is high and no shadow. All of them can clearly see full moon to keep track of months. Working out the seasons is a bit tricky as it is a tropical place, but they can see the signs of spring and summer and autumn and winter.
Excellent. If that is the case then determining summer solstice would be very easy for them.
QuoteAfter collecting eleven crescents the ?Sunni? starts his fast but for the rest of the group they have to first work out the summer Solstice in order to start fasting. :confused:
How would they do that?
1. At summer solstice the sun is at the highest point in the sky at noon and this can be determined by measuring the length of the shadow of a tall vertical object. At summer solstice this shadow will be the shortest vertically.
2. At summer solstice the sun rises at the most northern point on the horizon. During spring the sun will rise at a further northern point every day. The day when the sun rises at the most northern point will be summer solstice. Over the next days the sun will start rising more and more south from that point on the horizon. This can also be determined from the shadow of the tall vertical object. The shadow will keep moving horizontally further and further with each successive day as the summer solstice approaches. On the day of the summer solstice the shadow will be at the most extreme horizontal point and then over the next few days the shadow will start moving in the other direction horizontally with each successive day.
A sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object can be used for the solstice determination.
Peace All
I find these continuous debates about certain issues in the quran stem from the failure to realise that the quran was revealed in stages. It has to be this way since it is meant for all time. It cannot be static, it must be dynamic. Any community or individual must be able to approach the truth presented in it no matter what their present state is. In order to achieve this the quran allows communities & individuals time to acclimatise themselves to the changes they need to make on their way to truth.
In this instance, we find that 2:184 states "ayyam ma'doodaat". It has been claimed that this means a few days & cannot be a full month. These claims are then used to say that the understanding of a full month of fasting creates a contradiction in the quran. Even understanding "ma'doodaat" to mean a few days, there is no contradiction with understanding that according to 2:185, we are required to fast for the entire month of Ramadaan (please don't bring up the issue of scorching heat as this does not have basis in the quran.If anyone insists on discussing this, we can leave it for once the current aspect has been discussed fully).
All this means is that these to verses were revealed at different times & refer to the particular stage of development of an individual as to whether to fast a few days or a full month. This understanding is further re-enforced by the fact that 2:184 states that those who are sick or on a travelling can make up the fast on other days. This is repeated in 2:185. Why would this be repeated if the verses were revealed at the same time. A closer investigation the reason for the repetition. We find that 2:184 states that if it is difficult for one to fast, such a person may feed people instead. In 2:185 there is no such concession. It would therefore seem that initially the requirement was to fast a few days with certain concessions if one found it difficult, but at a later stage a full month was prescribed. This is because once you are used to the fasting there is no longer a need for such a concession. This does not mean that 2:184 has been abrogated. It can be applied today, just as 2:185 can be applied. It is just that it applies to different people depending on the stage of their development.
Anyway, I tried to discuss this in another thread in a more general manner. Here is the link:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598672.0
Imraan
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 20, 2009, 12:05:41 PM
A sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object can be used for the solstice determination.
:bravo: After one full year thay come up with a man made deivice to work out the solstice determination. :hail
Peace UmAlawi,
If Farida's group stranded on an island spent a long time wandering and lost consciousness and lost track of time and woke up to find themselves on the island. Farida is forced to start from a "reference point" in the Sunni calendar. Because this reference point is 100% arbitrary, if this reference point is lost, it cannot be established again. The Sunni guy wouldn't know that it is Ramadan which ended and not Shaaban or whatever. The fact that the Sunni calendar is completely arbitrary is exposed and the Sunni guy is unable to follow it. If it wasn't known that "the Sunnis were about to end fasting", the lone Sunni would be forever lost and out of sync with the Sunnis.
On the other hand, the summer solstice is easily determined using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow. The group (including the Sunni) will need this anyway to know the time of the day and to organize their lives on the island. It is easy to see when the summer solstice occurs because just before the summer solstice the shadow is decreasing while right after it the shadow is increasing. So it is the day when the transition happens. Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color.
A few years later, the group is saved and the poor Sunni guy finds out that he was actually fasting in Rabbi Al-Thanni all this time. On the other hand, the group who followed the great reading on the island is in perfect sync with everyone in the same hemisphere who follow the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Imraan,
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 12:07:14 PMEven understanding "ma'doodaat" to mean a few days, there is no contradiction with understanding that according to 2:185, we are required to fast for the entire month of Ramadaan (please don't bring up the issue of scorching heat as this does not have basis in the quran.If anyone insists on discussing this, we can leave it for once the current aspect has been discussed fully).
What does Ramaddan mean then? How do you know that it is Ramadaan and not Shaaban or Rabi Al-Awwal, etc.?
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 12:07:14 PMAll this means is that these to verses were revealed at different times & refer to the particular stage of development of an individual as to whether to fast a few days or a full month. This understanding is further re-enforced by the fact that 2:184 states that those who are sick or on a travelling can make up the fast on other days. This is repeated in 2:185. Why would this be repeated if the verses were revealed at the same time. A closer investigation the reason for the repetition. We find that 2:184 states that if it is difficult for one to fast, such a person may feed people instead. In 2:185 there is no such concession. It would therefore seem that initially the requirement was to fast a few days with certain concessions if one found it difficult, but at a later stage a full month was prescribed. This is because once you are used to the fasting there is no longer a need for such a concession. This does not mean that 2:184 has been abrogated. It can be applied today, just as 2:185 can be applied. It is just that it applies to different people depending on the stage of their development.
If you take "shahr" to mean "month" then do you think that 2:185 was all revealed at the same time or was the word "fast" revealed before "who ever witnessed the month". I am asking because, when using "month", 2:185 would become internally inconsistent and result in the absurdity that one has to witness the month first and then fast after it is over since witnessed is in the perfect past tense. This is why even the most staunch Sunnis have admitted to the fact that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing the event (the new moon) and not the month.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 20, 2009, 12:44:31 PM
Peace UmAlawi,
If Farida's group stranded on an island spent a long time wandering and lost consciousness and lost track of time and woke up to find themselves on the island. Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Please do not conjure. Nowhere in my scenario they wondered for a long time or lost awareness they were stranded in an Island fully conscious, without any modern device and as I said it was already Ramdan for a sunni guy (a"reference point") so he was able to make a note of the end of Ramadan when he saw the new moon crescent.
:peace:
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 20, 2009, 12:05:41 PMthe sunni worshippers of Umar would be abstaining in a different part of the solar year depending on when their god Umar decided to start the lunar calendar.
It is not just within the solar year where because of the approximately 11 days difference, the Sunnis would have been fasting in what is now Shaaban had the start of the calendar's era been made three years earlier. The lunar month would also change even within the lunar year itself. It is 100% dependent on when year 0 and month 0 was established. Had month 0 been established a month earlier then the whole calendar would shift one month earlier. Similarly, had month 0 been established 1 month later than the whole calendar would shift one month later and so on.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on August 20, 2009, 01:14:22 PMPlease do not conjure. Nowhere in m y scenario they wondered for a long time or lost awareness they just were stranded in an Island fully conscious, without any modern device and as I said it was already Ramdan for a sunni guy (a month well known ) so he was able to make a note of the end of Ramadan when he saw the new moon crescent.
:peace:
In other words, you admit that your Ramadan is 100% dependent on humans, specifically Sunnis. You admit that if the poor Sunni loses consciousness, he would be completely out of sync and unlike those who follow the great reading, it would be impossible for him to know when Ramadan is. Let's hope that the Sunni guy doesn't get banged on the head during the violent storm that stranded him on the island :rotfl: .
When he wakes up, he will realize that his Sunni Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and manmade and he might start to look for the timing in the great reading so getting knocked out might not be a bad thing after all.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 20, 2009, 12:57:46 PM
Peace Imraan,
What does Ramaddan mean then? How do you know that it is Ramadaan and not Shaaban or Rabi Al-Awwal, etc.?
If you take "shahr" to mean "month" then do you think that 2:185 was all revealed at the same time or was the word "fast" revealed before "who ever witnessed the month". I am asking because, when using "month", 2:185 would become internally inconsistent and result in the absurdity that one has to witness the month first and then fast after it is over since witnessed is in the perfect past tense. This is why even the most staunch Sunnis have admitted to the fact that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing the event (the new moon) and not the month.
Peace,
Ayman
Ramaddan appears only once in the Quran as far as I know. You therefore have no reference within the quran by which you can verify your interpretation. Therefore it could be the name of the month just as much as it could be meant scorching heat. So there is no definitive conclusion that can be reached through tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
As for witnessing the month or moon, it really doesn't matter which of the two you use in the quran as they are both acceptable. The context would dictate the choice. There is no reason why "shahr" cannot be used as the month of Ramaddan in the beginning of the verse & the moon in the middle of the verse. Both are consistent with quranic usage. Your question is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
We run into the same problems with salat & sadaqaat in the quran. That is that there are no9 contradictions in quran, only apparent contradictions due to a lack of investigation. By that I mean investigation within the quran because it explains itself through the process of tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
You have avoided the issue I brought up regarding stages of development.
Imraan
Quote from: ayman on August 20, 2009, 01:28:23 PM
Peace Farida,
In other words, you admit that your Ramadan is 100% dependent on humans, specifically Sunnis. You admit that if the poor Sunni loses consciousness, he would be completely out of sync and unlike those who follow the great reading, it would be impossible for him to know when Ramadan is. Let's hope that the Sunni guy doesn't get banged on the head during the violent storm that stranded him on the island :rotfl: .
When he wakes up, he will realize that his Sunni Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and manmade and he might start to look for the timing in the great reading so getting knocked out might not be a bad thing after all.
Peace,
Ayman
I only presented a scenario to make my point :! However any attempt to make true Muslims loses consciousness, so that they will be completely out of sync would be futile as this is the system established by the honourable prophet Mohammad and protected by God even though majority will go astray.
:peace:
Has anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.
Peace Imraan,
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 01:29:10 PMRamaddan appears only once in the Quran as far as I know. You therefore have no reference within the quran by which you can verify your interpretation. Therefore it could be the name of the month just as much as it could be meant scorching heat. So there is no definitive conclusion that can be reached through tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly afterwards, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending/"inzal" at that time. So we can at least learn that "ramadan" was a hot time of the year.
On the other hand, how do you know that the month that sectarians call Ramadan is the one talked about in the great reading? Who decided that Ramadan ought to be the 9th month? Who decided to rearrange the restricted "shahr" in the sectarian calendar so that they would not be consecutive?
You are putting your faith in the Sectarians.
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 01:29:10 PMAs for witnessing the month or moon, it really doesn't matter which of the two you use in the quran as they are both acceptable. The context would dictate the choice. There is no reason why "shahr" cannot be used as the month of Ramaddan in the beginning of the verse & the moon in the middle of the verse. Both are consistent with quranic usage. Your question is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
So you admit that "shahr" can only mean moon in the middle of the verse. Which phase of the moon? Also, if the single meaning of "full-moon" fits everywhere then why try to force another inconsistent meaning?
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 01:29:10 PMWe run into the same problems with salat & sadaqaat in the quran. That is that there are no9 contradictions in quran, only apparent contradictions due to a lack of investigation. By that I mean investigation within the quran because it explains itself through the process of tasreef (as opposed to tafseer).
There is no problem with "salat" and "sadaqat".
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 01:29:10 PMYou have avoided the issue I brought up regarding stages of development.
I have not avoided it. The great reading has been revealed at different times and is not arranged chronologically. Had what has been revealed first or next been important then the god would have arranged the entire great reading in chronological order. So your interpretation based on chronology has no basis in the great reading and is 100% based on conjecture about what was revealed first and what was revealed next. How do you know for certain that 2:185 was not revelealed before 2:183-184? Or how do you know that they were not revealed at the same time? You don't.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Herbman,
Quote from: herbman on August 20, 2009, 01:43:32 PMHas anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.
So everyone agrees that sectarians took the common noun "jumu'a" and turned it into the meaningless proper name of their arbitrary "holy" day of the week. So we know for sure that this is their way of lying. They simply did the same with "ramadan". This is as expected and shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 20, 2009, 01:54:59 PM
So you admit that "shahr" can only mean moon in the middle of the verse. Which phase of the moon? Also, if the single meaning of "full-moon" fits everywhere then why try to force another inconsistent meaning?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Term "full moon" is not used in Arabic or even Urdu language what you call full moon is often referred to as "the moon of the 14th" in Urdu. However full moon cycle from one crescent to another can be seen as full moon/month.
:peace:
Peace herbman
Quote from: herbman on August 20, 2009, 01:43:32 PM
Has anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, whether it is a month or not, whether it is the name of a month or not, makes no difference.
The mis understanding regarding the 2,3 or 5 salat is also caused by ignoring the stages of development of communities. There has not been any number fixed to how much salat is commanded. The times of salat as they appear in the quran cover an extensive period, which one cannot uphold by interpreting these times as time that should be spent in salat (depending on your understanding of salat). This is, however off topic. I would be willing to discuss this in the appropriate forum if you are.
Imraan
Quote from: ayman on August 20, 2009, 01:54:59 PM
Peace Imraan,
A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly afterwards, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending/"inzal" at that time. So we can at least learn that "ramadan" was a hot time of the year.
Peace,
Ayman
I remember this discussion last yeear Quote from: belalhammad link=topic=9188.msg177136#msg177136 check it here
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.240
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #250 on: September 08, 2008, 11:00:05 PM ? Quote
________________________________________
Peace,
Let me ask you Question; If Rammadan is the First rectricted month, and it Falls in June 21st; and if the end of the 4 restricted is about October 21, according to Ayman; then, Does verse 9-81 proves that Ayman theory is Wrong?
The Truth is, Rammadan had to be 4 months before Summer time.
Peace
Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed, thats what makes it so special and holy. And thats what it means to us. The months on the "submission" calender start when the moon is first visible. So whoever " witnesses" the month shall fast it. There is a night in the month of ramadan called " the night of decree." This night is a speacial night. But I dont know which particular night it is. I guess this night was/or is when the decree is or was.... :peace:
Ayman stop it. Im on your head. Stop sinning or your will be punished. :police:
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 20, 2009, 03:33:28 PM
Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed, thats what makes it so special and holy. And thats what it means to us. The months on the "submission" calender start when the moon is first visible. So whoever " witnesses" the month shall fast it. There is a night in the month of ramadan called " the night of decree." This night is a speacial night. But I dont know which particular night it is. I guess this night was/or is when the decree is or was.... :peace:
Ayman stop it. Im on your head. Stop sinning or your will be punished. :police:
Peace you are becoming sunni day by day please dont scare him by :muscle: :laugh:
Peace Ayman
QuoteA sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly afterwards, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending/"inzal" at that time. So we can at least learn that "ramadan" was a hot time of the year.
This is what I refer to as grasping at straws. Anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not it was hot. My contention is that there is no contradiction in 2:185 regardless of which interpretation you use.
QuoteOn the other hand, how do you know that the month that sectarians call Ramadan is the one talked about in the great reading? Who decided that Ramadan ought to be the 9th month? Who decided to rearrange the restricted "shahr" in the sectarian calendar so that they would not be consecutive?
Again it is irrelevant in this discussion because there is no contradiction regardless of the interpretive position taken.
QuoteYou are putting your faith in the Sectarians.
My faith is based on the investigation I do through accepting that the quran explains itself. You are creating sectarianism through insistence of the absolute validity of your opinion. It is only your opinion & since you cannot disprove the alternate view it cannot be considered absolute.
QuoteSo you admit that "shahr" can only mean moon in the middle of the verse. Which phase of the moon? Also, if the single meaning of "full-moon" fits everywhere then why try to force another inconsistent meaning?
Sure, but regardless of your insistence, there is still no contradiction.
QuoteThere is no problem with "salat" and "sadaqat".
There are no contradictions, just as there are none in the verses we are discussing. There are, however what may appear to be contradictions.
In relation to sadaqat, it is shown as both voluntary & compulsory in the quran. Which is it?
In relation to the times of salat, people have been debating whether it is 2, 3 or 5. None of these are mentioned in the quran. In 11:114 & 17:78 a large span of time is mentioned for the salat. In 24:58 there seem to be 2 specific salats mentioned. These appear to present as different timings for salat.
QuoteI have not avoided it. The great reading has been revealed at different times and is not arranged chronologically. Had what has been revealed first or next been important then the god would have arranged the entire great reading in chronological order. So your interpretation based on chronology has no basis in the great reading and is 100% based on conjecture about what was revealed first and what was revealed next. How do you know for certain that 2:185 was not revelealed before 2:183-184? Or how do you know that they were not revealed at the same time? You don't.
It is not about a linear chronology, but the different stages of human & communal development. It is not conjecture, but the use of reason that points to the importance of these stages in determining the meaning & validity of verses in the context of the people applying them. It is obvious that acclimatising to something is done before going into something full swing. That is why it is clear that 2:184 was revealed before 2:185. This is not conjecture, but logic, reason & common sense.
Imraan
Peace Brother Ayman and Sister Farida
All this talk of tropical islands and coconuts is giving me cravings for a Bounty! "Ah... the taste of paradise....!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_%28chocolate_bar%29
Let's say they agree to call it ramadan, for the sake of argument, regardless of when it is that they wake up, because their intention is good, they just want to fast to please Allah s w t...
Picture this...They have a Qur'an (original, arabic, no translations), it survived the ship wreck, but they do not have access to internet/translations/ group discussions on the forums or hadith books. Can they still study the Qur'an? None of them speaks or reads Arabic.
and
scenario 1. They find a wild boar. Can they eat it to break their fast? In this scenario, there is no other meat on the island.
scenario 2. if they find a sheep, can they eat it to break their fast?
If they were desperate for food, they wouldn't be fasting anyway, right??
Wherever you are in the world, and whatever your beliefs regarding the start date for the holy time of year and fasting, however long you may be fasting for, as long as it is for the correct intention of it being for Allah Alone, I wish you much success and may you be showered with the blessings, peace and guidance of Allah s.w.t. always inshAllah. May He be constantly Glorified.
Peace :group:
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 20, 2009, 07:06:13 PM
Peace Brother Ayman and Sister Farida
All this talk of tropical islands and coconuts is giving me cravings for a Bounty! "Ah... the taste of paradise....!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_%28chocolate_bar%29
Let's say they agree to call it ramadan, for the sake of argument, regardless of when it is that they wake up, because their intention is good, they just want to fast to please Allah s w t...
Picture this...They have a Qur'an (original, arabic, no translations), it survived the ship wreck, but they do not have access to internet/translations/ group discussions on the forums or hadith books. Can they still study the Qur'an? None of them speaks or reads Arabic.
Wherever you are in the world, and whatever your beliefs regarding the start date for the holy time of year and fasting, however long you may be fasting for, as long as it is for the correct intention of it being for Allah Alone, I wish you much success and may you be showered with the blessings, peace and guidance of Allah s.w.t. always inshAllah. May He be constantly Glorified.
Peace :group:
:handshake: :group:
Best wishes and regards
scenario 1. They find a wild boar. Can they eat it to break their fast? In this scenario, there is no other meat on the island.
scenario 2. if they find a sheep, can they eat it to break their fast?
If they were desperate for food, they wouldn't be fasting anyway, right??
[/quote]
If there was no food available so they are already on fast ;)
But if you can find a sheep then no need to eat a pig :eat:
Peace Imraan,
Quote from: 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on August 20, 2009, 04:07:51 PMMy faith is based on the investigation I do through accepting that the quran explains itself. You are creating sectarianism through insistence of the absolute validity of your opinion. It is only your opinion & since you cannot disprove the alternate view it cannot be considered absolute.
If you are truthful then prove from your investigation of the great reading that Ramadan is the 9th month of a lunar calendar in which the year zero is the year of the supposed Hijra and month 0 is Safar and where months begin with the new moon crescent. If you can do it then we will know that you are truthful. I know you can't do it and you will evade because you are in reality blindly following sectarians but as usual it takes courage to admit the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
The truth is that there is NO calendar outlined in the Quran.
The Quran talks to people who know the calendar already.
Peace ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 20, 2009, 10:01:45 PM
Peace Imraan,
If you are truthful then prove from your investigation of the great reading that Ramadan is the 9th month of a lunar calendar in which the year zero is the year of the supposed Hijra and month 0 is Safar and where months begin with the new moon crescent. If you can do it then we will know that you are truthful. I know you can't do it and you will evade because you are in reality blindly following sectarians but as usual it takes courage to admit the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
I'm not sure why you seem to be insisting that my position is that Ramaddan can be absolutely defined as the 9th month. I am saying that you are presenting your view as the absolute even though you can't refute the alternate view from the quran.
My position is that it does not matter whether or not you see Ramaddan as the 9th month or not, there still is no contradiction in the quran. Any "apparent contradictions" are a product of disregarding the fact that the quran provides information/directives/laws/advices, etc. for communities at different stages of their development. Just as you cannot expect a preschooler to grasp concepts/accept responsibilities/abide by laws the way a post graduate student can, communities need to arrive at the destination that the quran is leading us to in stages.
I am saying that the sectarians believe that their view is the only truth according to the quran. Therefore when you present your view as absolute while you cannot disprove the opposing view, you may be acting in this manner & should maybe pause & reflect. Sometimes when we are in the thick of things we lose sight of many things that would otherwise be obvious to us.
Imraan
Imraan
Salam,
The fact is, Nabi definitely not using Hijrah Calendar... :)
Quote from: arista on August 21, 2009, 06:26:26 AM
Salam,
The fact is, Nabi definitely not using Hijrah Calendar... :)
please provide evidencess.
Dear all, Peace,
I did some research on 01/01/01 AH, with the classical Hijri/Gregorian date convertor which you can find here http://www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=hij-ger&day=1&month=1&year=1&date_result=1
result is Friday 16 July 622 C.E
searching summer solstice for that year 622
result : 20 Jun
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=600&n=0
searching the new moon for that year 622 after summer solstice
first new moon is 14 july
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=622&n=0
By this we can conclude the start of the new hijri calendar started exactly 2 days after new moon (when new moon was visible=mashud) after the summer solstice (hot month/Ramadan).
That's strange, isn't it?
Quote from: farida on August 20, 2009, 12:33:35 PM
:bravo: After one full year thay come up with a man made deivice to work out the solstice determination. :hail
:rotfl:
@ ayman
I will give a more detailed/long er response this time. Last time I had no time at all.
About the whole "fasting IN 'the moon"..
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan...
So I guess according to you, the Quran was sent down IN the moon.. fair enough.
Also.. please provide evidence for monotheists having practiced fasting during the time that you fast, as opposed to how it is told in the Bible and mandated in the Quran.
2:183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware/guard yourself.
I showed you my evidence from the Bible - Ramadan is the 9th month of the lunar calendar and Muslims (those who truly submit to God) are to fast in it.
Peace,
and have a blessed Ramadan :peace:
Salaam,
I feel a need to carry forward scenario in my post ? Reply #1089 on: Yesterday at 01:36:02 PM ?
One day people living near the Island saw a teen age boy sailing to their land claiming that he comes from the nearby Island. The story made big headlines and all the world media wanted to cover his story.
Hounded by the reporters the boy felt very scared but he was on a mission to find the truth for himself so he decided to answer their questions.
Someone asked, how old are you? and the boy said I am not sure as my parents do not agree on my age..he produced from his sack two crescents marked 2nd hj with a big mark in the middle of the second crescent saying Birth of the son of Abdullah and then he says but according to my mother when I was born she had to skip that moon so I was born when she skipped thirteen ?round moon? of the summer solstice calculations.
All the reporters were really puzzled they asked do you know what is the religion of your parents?
Boy: My mother calls my father Sunni but my father says he is just Muslim.
:elektro: the crowd: what you mean Muslims .....the ter rorrr...ist .
Boy: :confused: rowed? boat? yes its me :bravo:
Everyone :confused: :rotfl:
One middle eastern reports inquired :! any idea when did your parents arrive on that Island?
Boy: According to my father it was exactly 16 Ramadan back :P
What you mean your parents are the one who disappear from the face of this earth around 15 years back? :o
:-[May be I am not sure as my father calls his current time in the Island as year 16 hijri.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN!!! :yuck: Middle eastern reporter shouted your father thinks he is the prophet that he counts his migration as hijri and :! when does Ramadan falls in your hijri ???
BOY: It started two days ago but my parents were arguing over it so want to find the truth myself. According to my father?s calculation it?s the 12th moon . He starts his new count after every Ramdan as he only remembers Ramadan ended when he arrived there. :wow
Middle Eastern Reporter: What do you mean Last moon it is actually is the 9th month according to hadith >:(
Boy: :& I have never heard my father talk of anyone called Hedith he only mentioned that the system was established by the prophet Ibrahim and finally completed by Mohammad and who delivered word of God called the Quran to us. :hail
The crowed :confused: :whatever: :yeah:
Boy: 8) When does Ramadan start in your world?
Middle Eastern man :yes: some started day before yesterday others are starting today and some will start tomorrow when they see the new moon of this month. ;)
Boy: Well then my father is not wrong :yay:
Middle Eastern Reporter: NO! >:( he is not following real ?Hijri? calendar he has made up his own year of migration. :tempt:
:brickwall: arista from the crowd shouted: but The fact is, Nabi definitely not using Hijrah Calendar...
:angel: Rami raised his hand and added : The truth is that there is NO calendar outlined in the Quran. The Quran talks to people who know the calendar already.
The crowd. :yes ??? :whatever:..what does he know he is a Jew anyway :ignore:
Boy: ;D My father too says that Ramdan was known to people and has continued through the lunar cycle until this day.
;) Rev.John tried to put his word in: :! it was always Lunar calendar but later it?s been changed bbb... :-X
:hypno: You Rev don?t tell us about your views shouted Americans :muscle: you are condemned to hell as you are rejected Jesus as the saviour >:D
A western man :police: looks at the boy suspiciously and asks him to hand over his crescents and the sun dial
Boy: :( look please if you take the crescents away I can start my count from the next moon but if you take this other object away which belongs to my mother?s tribe then I will have to wait for full one year to make a new one. :'(
Middle Eastern Reporter: :rotfl: What nonsense, there are thousands of dials here in our land we call is sundial and it was a Muslim who invention it back in 8th hijri to determine Qibla direction :yes
:hmm A Swedish reporter interrupted: this was first invented by the Vikings who introduced it to Muslims when they ventured toward Muslims civilizations. :jedi:
Boy: :giveup: quietly slipped out of the crowed and sailed back to his father: Your Ramadan cucle has been maintained by the grace of God. :hail
CNN Breaking news: FBI has have discover a new terrorist cell in remote Island of ....... :handshake:
Quote from: farida on August 21, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
Salaam,
I feel a need to carry forward scenario in my post ? Reply #1089 on: Yesterday at 01:36:02 PM ?
One day people living near the Island saw a teen age boy sailing to their land claiming that he comes from the nearby Island. The story made big headlines and all the world media wanted to cover his story.
Hounded by the reporters the boy felt very scared but he was on a mission to find the truth for himself so he decided to answer their questions.
Someone asked, how old are you? and the boy said I am not sure as my parents do not agree on my age..he produced from his sack two crescents marked 2nd hj with a big mark in the middle of the second crescent saying Birth of the son of Abdullah and then he says but according to my mother when I was born she had to skip that moon so I was born when she skipped thirteen ?round moon? of the summer solstice calculations.
All the reporters were really puzzled they asked do you know what is the religion of your parents?
Boy: My mother calls my father Sunni but my father says he is just Muslim.
:elektro: the crowd: what you mean Muslims .....the ter rorrr...ist .
Boy: :confused: rowed? boat? yes its me :bravo:
Everyone :confused: :rotfl:
One middle eastern reports inquired :! any idea when did your parents arrive on that Island?
Boy: According to my father it was exactly 16 Ramadan back :P
What you mean your parents are the one who disappear from the face of this earth around 15 years back? :o
:-[May be I am not sure as my father calls his current time in the Island as year 16 hijri.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN!!! :yuck: Middle eastern reporter shouted your father thinks he is the prophet that he counts his migration as hijri and :! when does Ramadan falls in your hijri ???
BOY: It started two days ago but my parents were arguing over it so want to find the truth myself. According to my father?s calculation it?s the 12th moon . He starts his new count after every Ramdan as he only remembers Ramadan ended when he arrived there. :wow
Middle Eastern Reporter: What do you mean Last moon it is actually is the 9th month according to hadith >:(
Boy: :& I have never heard my father talk of anyone called Hedith he only mentioned that the system was established by the prophet Ibrahim and finally completed by Mohammad and who delivered word of God called the Quran to us. :hail
The crowed :confused: :whatever: :yeah:
Boy: 8) When does Ramadan start in your world?
Middle Eastern man :yes: some started day before yesterday others are starting today and some will start tomorrow when they see the new moon of this month. ;)
Boy: Well then my father is not wrong :yay:
Middle Eastern Reporter: NO! >:( he is not following real ?Hijri? calendar he has made up his own year of migration. :tempt:
:brickwall: arista from the crowd shouted: but The fact is, Nabi definitely not using Hijrah Calendar...
:angel: Rami raised his hand and added : The truth is that there is NO calendar outlined in the Quran. The Quran talks to people who know the calendar already.
The crowd. :yes ??? :whatever:..what does he know he is a Jew anyway :ignore:
Boy: ;D My father too says that Ramdan was known to people and has continued through the lunar cycle until this day.
;) Rev.John tried to put his word in: :! it was always Lunar calendar but later it?s been changed bbb... :-X
:hypno: You Rev don?t tell us about your views shouted Americans :muscle: you are condemned to hell as you are rejected Jesus as the saviour >:D
A western man :police: looks at the boy suspiciously and asks him to hand over his crescents and the sun dial
Boy: :( look please if you take the crescents away I can start my count from the next moon but if you take this other object away which belongs to my mother?s tribe then I will have to wait for full one year to make a new one. :'(
Middle Eastern Reporter: :rotfl: What nonsense, there are thousands of dials here in our land we call is sundial and it was a Muslim who invention it back in 8th hijri to determine Qibla direction :yes
:hmm A Swedish reporter interrupted: this was first invented by the Vikings who introduced it to Muslims when they ventured toward Muslims civilizations. :jedi:
Boy: :giveup: quietly slipped out of the crowed and sailed back to his father: Your Ramadan cucle has been maintained by the grace of God. :hail
CNN Breaking news: FBI has have discover a new terrorist cell in remote Island of ....... :handshake:
LMAO! :rotfl:
Best part:
Quote from: farida on August 21, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
Rami raised his hand and added : The truth is that there is NO calendar outlined in the Quran. The Quran talks to people who know the calendar already.
The crowd. :yes ??? :whatever:..what does he know he is a Jew anyway :ignore:
:rotfl:
Im not a sunni, or Aymanist, or any of the other rejecters ( code19ers, shiat, pagan, or whatever). Never claimed to be. Me being one was only the words of another. But im a monothest who submit to God Alone, and im not of those who set up partners. For all I know these people who try to call me such things on the low because my views differnt from everyonelse ( or the majority) are the pagans/rejecters/dividers/suniis.ect.... Because everytime they call me and those who believe such, they the ones who always get proved to be wrong. just like the issue with "the spoils of war." :-[ None of you can say im wrong.
So now, who is the sunni or pagan now? And dont be like Rashad. 8) And isnt it Ramadan now?
So now, who is the sunni or pagan now? And dont be like Rashad. 8) And isnt it Ramadan now?
[/quote]
Anthony Ranadan or Farida Ramadan :confused:
Quote from: herbman on August 20, 2009, 01:43:32 PM
Has anyone wonder why God will mention only one month up to 12?
Same for the days, why would God mention only one day? Everyone here seems to agree yawm jumu'a doesnt mean Friday.
God has mentionned 2 salat, so we pray 2 salat, not 5, because they are simply not mentionned.
And I wonder why the quraan does not tell us also that hajj is in "dhul hijja"! Isn't hajj also one of the "five pllars" of "Islam"! :confused:
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 21, 2009, 02:12:44 PM
So now, who is the sunni or pagan now? And dont be like Rashad. 8) And isnt it Ramadan now?
Another statement that makes absolutely no sense... What's so "Sunni or pagan" about Rashad? You're saying we shouldn't be like Rashad, and instead we should be like who,
YOU?!?!? :laugh:
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 21, 2009, 02:12:44 PM
Im not a sunni, or Aymanist, or any of the other rejecters ( code19ers, shiat, pagan, or whatever). Never claimed to be. Me being one was only the words of another. But im a monothest who submit to God Alone, and im not of those who set up partners. For all I know these people who try to call me such things on the low because my views differnt from everyonelse ( or the majority) are the pagans/rejecters/dividers/suniis.ect.... Because everytime they call me and those who believe such, they the ones who always get proved to be wrong. just like the issue with "the spoils of war." :-[ None of you can say im wrong.
So now, who is the sunni or pagan now? And dont be like Rashad. 8) And isnt it Ramadan now?
Salaam,
49: 11.
O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. 31-18: "
And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the Earth insolently. For God does not like the arrogant show offs." :peace:
Ayman, peace. Do you know that you made a mistake in 17:12 by twisting the words around? Maybey this mistake is what caused your therom. Or did you twist the words intentionally? Or do you think it doesnt matter? I expect a response from my replys, and my questions I previously asked was sincere. I also notice that you make it as we claim ramadan is 30 fixed days or 29 fixed days and you claim 10 fixed days. But the days are not fixed and we dont know the future. Thus we dont know how many days ramadan will last untill the next new or full moon comes. Then we can say ramadan was 29 or 30 or 10 days this year. To my understandin.
God sees all. :peace:
Quote from: afridi220 on August 21, 2009, 03:39:26 PM
So now, who is the sunni or pagan now? And dont be like Rashad. 8) And isnt it Ramadan now?
Anthony Ranadan or Farida Ramadan :confused:
:confused: Its just Ramadan. The Quarn was sent down in this month. Peace my brother. May God be paitent with us, and let there not be any animosity between those who believe...
Quote from: farida on August 22, 2009, 09:21:42 AM
Salaam,
49: 11. O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
31-18: "And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the Earth insolently. For God does not like the arrogant show offs."
:peace:
:hail :! :jedi: :peace:
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 22, 2009, 01:04:54 AM
Another statement that makes absolutely no sense... What's so "Sunni or pagan" about Rashad? You're saying we shouldn't be like Rashad, and instead we should be like who, YOU?!?!? :laugh:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
:bravo:
Also out of sync? What you mean out of sync? Rashad claimed the Quran was out of sync because of verses 9:128&9:129 so he discarded them. This is a reminder.
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 22, 2009, 11:09:33 AM
Also out of sync? What you mean out of sync? Rashad claimed the Quran was out of sync because of verses 9:128&9:129 so he discarded them. This is a reminder.
Way to go anthony, truth blast these rejectors with your prophethood.
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 22, 2009, 11:09:33 AM
Also out of sync? What you mean out of sync? Rashad claimed the Quran was out of sync because of verses 9:128&9:129 so he discarded them. This is a reminder.
::) Why do you idolize Rashad? You speak about him more than his own followers! If you claim that
they idolize Rashad by their excessive mention of him, then what do you call what
you're doing?
Rashad Khalifa never claimed that the Qur'aan was out of sync. Rather, he showed mathematical evidence that the Qur'aan has actually been preserved throughout the ages...
Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 22, 2009, 09:26:13 PM
Rashad Khalifa never claimed that the Qur'aan was out of sync. Rather, he showed mathematical evidence that the Qur'aan has actually been preserved throughout the ages...
So preserved that he had to delete verses from it.
Anyways, you might notice that this thread is about Ramadan, not RK...
Quote from: TheJoker on August 22, 2009, 10:30:34 PM
So preserved that he had to delete verses from it.
Anyways, you might notice that this thread is about Ramadan, not RK...
TheJoker, the thread police :police:
just 'joking' :laugh:
Quote from: TheJoker on August 22, 2009, 10:30:34 PM
So preserved that he had to delete verses from it.
Anyways, you might notice that this thread is about Ramadan, not RK...
Oh, here we go with another guy who speaks about what he doesn't understand... ::)
Rashad Khalifa didn't delete anything from the Qur'aan. Period. Stop making false accusations. Besides, I didn't turn this conversation into a discussion about Rashad Khalifa, your buddy Anthony did. You might notice that... For future reference, if you have something to say about Rashad Khalifa, alleging that he deleted verses from the scripture, then post your concerns in the Submitters' section, and I'm sure somebody can answer your questions...
Peace,
Quote from: herbman on August 21, 2009, 10:36:08 AM
Dear all, Peace,
I did some research on 01/01/01 AH, with the classical Hijri/Gregorian date convertor which you can find here http://www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=hij-ger&day=1&month=1&year=1&date_result=1
result is Friday 16 July 622 C.E
searching summer solstice for that year 622
result : 20 Jun
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=600&n=0
searching the new moon for that year 622 after summer solstice
first new moon is 14 july
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=622&n=0
By this we can conclude the start of the new hijri calendar started exactly 2 days after new moon (when new moon was visible=mashud) after the summer solstice (hot month/Ramadan).
That's strange, isn't it?
Exactly date of PERF 558 can be used to rollback calculate and verify date of events.
New Moon Date 1/17/622 16-Feb
18-Mar
16-Apr
16-May
14-Jun
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
12-Aug 2. Safar begins 8/14 -
Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) Hijra 11-Sep 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-Oct 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-Nov 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Dec 6. Jumada al-thani
1/6/623 7. Rajab
5-Feb 8. Sha'aban
7-Mar 9. Ramadan
5-Apr 10. Shawwal
5-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
3-Jul 1. Muharram 2 AH
2-Aug 2. Safar
31-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Dec 7. Rajab
1/25/624 8. Sha'aban
24-Feb 9. Ramadan begins 2/27
March 17, 624 (17 Ramadan 2 AH) Badr Battle24-Mar 10. Shawwal
23-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
23-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
21-Jun 1. Muharram 3 AH
21-Jul 2. Safar
20-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
18-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
18-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
16-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
16-Dec 7. Rajab
1/14/625 8. Sha'aban
13-Feb 9. Ramadan
14-Mar 10. Shawwal begins 3/16 -
March 19, 625 (3 Shawwal 3 AH) Battle of Uhud12-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
12-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
10-Jun 1. Muharram 4 AH
10-Jul 2. Safar
9-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
7-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
7-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
6-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
5-Dec 7. Rajab
1/4/626 8. Sha'aban
2-Feb 9. Ramadan
4-Mar 10. Shawwal
2-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
31-May 1. Muharram 5 AH
29-Jun 2. Safar
29-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
27-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
26-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Nov 7. Rajab
24-Dec 8. Sha'aban
1/23/627 9. Ramadan
21-Feb 10. Shawwal
23-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
21-Apr 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
20-May 1. Muharram 6 AH
19-Jun 2. Safar
18-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
16-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
15-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Nov 7. Rajab
13-Dec 8. Sha'aban
1/12/628 9. Ramadan
11-Feb 10. Shawwal
11-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
10-Apr 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
9-May 1. Muharram 7 AH
7-Jun 2. Safar
7-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
5-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
3-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
3-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
2-Nov 7. Rajab
1-Dec 8. Sha'aban
31-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/30/629 10. Shawwal
1-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
29-Apr 1. Muharram 8 AH
28-May 2. Safar
26-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
26-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
24-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
22-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
22-Oct 7. Rajab
20-Nov 8. Sha'aban
20-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/19/630 10. Shawwal
18-Feb 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Apr 1. Muharram 9 AH
17-May 2. Safar
16-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
15-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
14-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
12-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
11-Oct 7. Rajab
10-Nov 8. Sha'aban
9-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/8/631 10. Shawwal
7-Feb 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
7-Apr 1. Muharram 10 AH
7-May 2. Safar
5-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
5-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
3-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
2-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
1-Oct 7. Rajab
30-Oct 8. Sha'aban
29-Nov 9. Ramadan
28-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/27/632 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
25-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
26-Mar 1. Muharram 11 AH
25-Apr 2. Safar
24-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal begins 5/26 -
8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal, 11 AH) prophet left (pbuh)23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
23-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
21-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
20-Sep 7. Rajab
19-Oct 8. Sha'aban
17-Nov 9. Ramadan
17-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/15/633 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
15-Mar 1. Muharram 12 AH
14-Apr 2. Safar
13-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
12-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
12-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
10-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
9-Sep 7. Rajab
9-Oct 8. Sha'aban
7-Nov 9. Ramadan
7-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/5/634 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
5-Mar 1. Muharram 13 AH
3-Apr 2. Safar
3-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
1-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
1-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
30-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
29-Aug 7. Rajab
28-Sep 8. Sha'aban
27-Oct 9. Ramadan
26-Nov 10. Shawwal
26-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/24/635 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
23-Feb 1. Muharram 14 AH
24-Mar 2. Safar
22-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
22-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
20-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
19-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
18-Aug 7. Rajab
17-Sep 8. Sha'aban
17-Oct 9. Ramadan
15-Nov 10. Shawwal
15-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/14/636 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
12-Feb 1. Muharram 15 AH
13-Mar 2. Safar
11-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
9-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Aug 7. Rajab
5-Sep 8. Sha'aban
5-Oct 9. Ramadan
3-Nov 10. Shawwal
3-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/2/637 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1-Feb 1. Muharram 16 AH
2-Mar 2. Safar
1-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Jul 7. Rajab
25-Aug 8. Sha'aban
24-Sep 9. Ramadan
23-Oct 10. Shawwal
22-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
22-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/21/638 1. Muharram 17 AH
19-Feb 2. Safar
21-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
20-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
19-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
17-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
17-Jul 7. Rajab
15-Aug 8. Sha'aban
13-Sep 9. Ramadan
13-Oct 10. Shawwal
11-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
11-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/10/639 1. Muharram 18 AH
8-Feb 2. Safar
10-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
9-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
7-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Jul 7. Rajab
5-Aug 8. Sha'aban
3-Sep 9. Ramadan
2-Oct 10. Shawwal
1-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
30-Dec 1. Muharram 19 AH
1/28/640 2. Safar
27-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
28-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
27-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-May 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Jun 7. Rajab
24-Jul 8. Sha'aban
23-Aug 9. Ramadan
21-Sep 10. Shawwal
20-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Dec 1. Muharram 20 AH
1/17/641 2. Safar
15-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
17-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
16-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-May 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Jun 7. Rajab
13-Jul 8. Sha'aban
12-Aug 9. Ramadan
11-Sep 10. Shawwal
10-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
8-Dec 1. Muharram 21 AH
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram 22 AH
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal
PERF 558 last day of Jumada al-awwal 4/2524-Apr 6. Jumada al-thani begins 4/26
23-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 2. Safar
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages that you might know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating. God did not create this but in truth. He explains the verses in detail for people who have knowledge. 10:5
Quote from: Rex on August 23, 2009, 08:57:00 AM
Peace,
Exactly date of PERF 558 can be used to rollback calculate and verify date of events.
...
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages that you might know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating. God did not create this but in truth. He explains the verses in detail for people who have knowledge. 10:5
Salaam Brother
I had this feeling that you would come back with detailed calculations for us. I was waiting to hear from you and I thought you would be busy calculating to come back with solid evidence. :hmm
Thank you so much and Ramadan Mubarik
Jazakh Allah Kheir
Peace Rex/Pseudo/Eid/Nun,
Quote from: Rex on August 23, 2009, 08:57:00 AMExactly date of PERF 558 can be used to rollback calculate and verify date of events.
New Moon Date
1/17/622
16-Feb
18-Mar
16-Apr
16-May
14-Jun
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
12-Aug 2. Safar begins 8/14 - Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) Hijra
As you found out, the starting date of the new era has nothing to do with the supposed date of the Hijra. The Hijri era month 1 actually started about 56 days earlier. So the start date of this new era is a big lie that in reality has nothing to do with the event it claims to be based on. Had month 1 been based on the actual supposed date of Hijra or the closest new moon to it, then the entire era would have been pushed 2 months and this year's Ramadan would be in two months.
Moreover, your entire calculation is erroneous because it ignores that according to the same sectarian sources that you used to conjecture the dates of the various events, the intercalary month was abolished in the year when the prophet died. If you factor this then the 26 Safar date would occur about 89 days (three lunar months) earlier and your dates will be off. So you are essentially implying that the prophet always fasted on the wrong dates.
Again it is an indisputable fact that the present so-called Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and it depends on when some guy decided the era was to start and with which month it started and on the 100% manmade order of the months.
Quote from: Rex on August 23, 2009, 08:57:00 AMIt is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages that you might know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating. God did not create this but in truth. He explains the verses in detail for people who have knowledge. 10:5
Yet you completely ignore the sun as if 10:5 didn't mention it. This also results in you completely ignoring 17:12 as if the verse didn't exist.
Peace,
Ayman
Salam all,
I was reading this thread for 2 weeks now, and i successfully finished reading all posts (it's not that easy , 76 pages !!! ) and finally decided to post.
in my seekin of the truth, i was told that the best way to find the truth is to "reset" your ''traditional" knowledge and "free your mind" to be able to understand the signs from the great reading only.
I tell it right now, i fully agree with ayman's theory because hes posts were always so logical and so clear and whether you like it or not , all his statement and arguments have a strictly quranic basis, what is not the case for many many of you.. i don't know why you keep asking the same questions on and on.... had you understood from the very first pages, this thread wouldn't have been so long and so difficult to read for all of us ...
Also, that's why many of you skipped reading 80% of this thread, and asked the very questions discussed in 2008 topics...making this thread longer and longer and forcing ayman repeating his posts on and on..and he did it very patiently...
I think Ayman's theory would be irrelevant only if you attack it from a biased way of thinking due to traditional impact...So if you really claim that you are in this site because you follow God alone ( it means that your only source is the great reading) then you should find anything illogical to what Ayman claims. In the other hand Ayman has succefully answerd logically all of your questions without avoiding anyone. Congrats...
Last , i wanna thank you all for contributing to help me understand better than i did before..
May god help us all to find the true way and never deviate from it..
P.S : i'm not an english educated person because in my country (morocco) , english is not the mother tongue neither the first foreign language. So excuse my typing and grammar mistakes...
Peace all ...
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
There are only two naturally occurring timers which are fixed and accurate
1. Earth rotation on its axis, and hence the creation of the unit which we call day. This is the basic important calculating unit for life.
2. Earth's orbit around sun, and the resulting unit of a year. Due to natural tilt in rotating axis, this provides us with seasons and important markers like summer and winter solstices. And hence, a significant event.
As these two are far apart for calculation in reference to life on earth , so He also recommended increasing /decreasing moon shapes for splitting the above bigger unit. How?
Recurrence of a similar moon shape would aproximate 30 day units.
And would approximately divide the bigger year unit into 12 intermediary units. but there is a problem,
The third reference provider (moon) has its independent celestial properties, so the info help that it provides , does not properly dove tail, and hence cannot equally divide the other basic units, from visible reference point of view As this would occur sometimes in 29 ,and another in 30 days, so God does not use this unit as a month, but uses it as a marker.
To understand , imagine, if some one tells you to complete a certain task, in a day from now That would always mean fixed 24 hours , or one complete rotation of earth on its axis where ever you are on the globe. same way unit of year would also remain fixed , one complete orbit of earth around sun from that instant.
But if it was a month , with the help of moon, It can not be inherently a fixed period of time, because there would be an error of complete one day.
This is most likely why God does not use and call the intermediary unit as A MONTH, but tells us "to take reference from one complete visible cycle of the moon" ,He means, may it be 29, or 30 , do it in what ever moon gives you in your geographical location.
He uses shahar , the full moon, which is brightest and longest duration wise, for most of his commands as a marker , ensuring "a least chance for ambiguity"
Shahar as a Month, is most probably an evolved meaning. "When people saw full moon, and again saw the full moon they mentally realised that a certain number of days have elapsed, and hence started identifying "coming of the full moon" with a certain duration passed (Month)
I sincerely hope that this effort of mine helps some one.
peace
siki
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 02:14:43 AM
Salam all,
I was reading this thread for 2 weeks now, and i successfully finished reading all posts (it's not that easy , 76 pages !!! ) and finally decided to post.
in my seekin of the truth, i was told that the best way to find the truth is to "reset" your ''traditional" knowledge and "free your mind" to be able to understand the signs from the great reading only.
I tell it right now, i fully agree with ayman's theory because hes posts were always so logical and so clear and whether you like it or not , all his statement and arguments have a strictly quranic basis, what is not the case for many many of you.. i don't know why you keep asking the same questions on and on.... had you understood from the very first pages, this thread wouldn't have been so long and so difficult to read for all of us ...
Also, that's why many of you skipped reading 80% of this thread, and asked the very questions discussed in 2008 topics...making this thread longer and longer and forcing ayman repeating his posts on and on..and he did it very patiently...
I think Ayman's theory would be irrelevant only if you attack it from a biased way of thinking due to traditional impact...So if you really claim that you are in this site because you follow God alone ( it means that your only source is the great reading) then you should find anything illogical to what Ayman claims. In the other hand Ayman has succefully answerd logically all of your questions without avoiding anyone. Congrats...
Last , i wanna thank you all for contributing to help me understand better than i did before..
May god help us all to find the true way and never deviate from it..
P.S : i'm not an english educated person because in my country (morocco) , english is not the mother tongue neither the first foreign language. So excuse my typing and grammar mistakes...
Peace all ...
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
A very logical , well written and badly needed sum up.
:welcome: aboard.
:handshake:
siki
Quote from: siki on August 24, 2009, 02:41:40 AM
This is most likely why God does not use and call the intermediary unit as A MONTH, but tells us "to take reference from one complete visible cycle of the moon" ,He means, may it be 29, or 30 , do it in what ever moon gives you in your geographical location.
Salaam
God explains a complete visible cycle from child to old age not from full strength. :nope: Here are the
stages clearly explained :
Free_Minds:
40; 67.
He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath-
From Crescent ? To Crescent .Also:
The Hellenic calendars, the Hebrew Lunisolar calendar and the Islamic Lunar calendar started the month with the first appearance of the thin crescent of the new moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Month
QuoteHe uses shahar , the full moon, which is brightest and longest duration wise, for most of his commands as a marker , ensuring "a least chance for ambiguity"
Full Moon ??? Please do not use English term tell us in your own language what word do you use for full moon?
QuoteShahar as a Month, is most probably an evolved meaning. "When people saw full moon, and again saw the full moon they mentally realised that a certain number of days have elapsed, and hence started identifying "coming of the full moon" with a certain duration passed (Month)
Moon to month Etymology
Middle English < Old English mōna? < Proto-Germanic *mēnō?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include: Ancient Greek: μήν (mḗn), Armenian: ամիս (amis), German: Monat, Old High German: mānōd, Middle High German: mānōt, Old Irish: m?, and Old Slavic: ⰿⱖⱄⱔⱌⱐ (měsęncĭ).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/month
QuoteI sincerely hope that this effort of mine helps some one.
peace
siki
Someone ::) You mean Ayman!
:yes
Quote from: siki on August 24, 2009, 02:53:43 AM
A very logical , well written and badly needed sum up.
:welcome: aboard.
:handshake:
siki
Yehh :welcome: aboard.
:handshake: quickduck :sun:
In the past we used to get responses in support of Ayman from the eloquent ones now it?s been switched a different category. :yeah:
Maybe you can sum up this for quickduck that
The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth .... Provided humans understand :
It does not matter what hemisphere they are in. All they have to do is wait for summer.
1. At summer solstice the sun is at the highest point in the sky at noon and this can be determined by measuring the length of the shadow of a tall vertical object. At summer solstice this shadow will be the shortest vertically.
2. At summer solstice the sun rises at the most northern point on the horizon. During spring the sun will rise at a further northern point every day. The day when the sun rises at the most northern point will be summer solstice. Over the next days the sun will start rising more and more south from that point on the horizon. This can also be determined from the shadow of the tall vertical object. The shadow will keep moving horizontally further and further with each successive day as the summer solstice approaches. On the day of the summer solstice the shadow will be at the most extreme horizontal point and then over the next few days the shadow will start moving in the other direction horizontally with each successive day.
OR
On the other hand, the summer solstice is easily determined using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow. .....It is easy to see when the summer solstice occurs because just before the summer solstice the shadow is decreasing while right after it the shadow is increasing. So it is the day when the transition happens. Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color
A sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object can be used for the solstice determination However if for any handicap one is unable follow the above procedure then he is a worthless human his fast is not acceptable to God he is discarded. :ignore:
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 07:44:52 AM
Moon to month Etymology
Middle English < Old English mōna? < Proto-Germanic *mēnō?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include: Ancient Greek: μήν (mḗn), Armenian: ամիս (amis), German: Monat, Old High German: mānōd, Middle High German: mānōt, Old Irish: m?, and Old Slavic: ⰿⱖⱄⱔⱌⱐ (měsęncĭ).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthSomeone ::) You mean Ayman!
:yes
Peace Sister Farida
Speaking of German, Salat means "Salad" here ;D
:rotfl:
Quote from: UmAlawi on August 24, 2009, 08:36:33 AM
Peace Sister Farida
Speaking of German, Salat means "Salad" here ;D
:rotfl:
I can see you are fasting :laugh:
btw its Salah so stop thinking of Salads :yay:
Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.
Ramadan mubarak said to farida
Salam
Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.
to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 40:67 and 36:39.
40:67. He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i know, 40:67 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 36:39 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage . THAT's a Big difference .
2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 40:67, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 36:39 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.
i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it :o
Peace all
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 12:42:38 PM
Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.
to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 40:67 and 36:39.
40:67. He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
36:39 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i understand, 40:67 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 36:39 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage .
2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 40:67, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 36:39 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.
i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it :o
Peace all
Salaam
:wow your English is good you know the difference between "ancient" and old :bravo:
Me in development stages understand nothing :brickwall:
ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs. I have been meaning to get guidance from the Book about how to go through life in light of Allah's commandments, but I'm ashamed to say that I realised today that I have been putting off the duties of a Believer, behind the excuse of actually understanding those commandments before implementing them in my life, a definite indicator of procrastination and, worse, hypocrisy.
I guess that's why, more out of desperation than anything else, I came back to FM and searched topics about Ramadan and came across this one. I read Br. Ayman's article and whatever I could in this thread, and tried to get an understanding of all viewpoints. Before I really get into my questions and all, I'll summarize the status of Quran in my eyes at present.
I believe that the Quran is explained in detail (6:114), has all explanations for a believer (16:89) and contains the complete Shariah of God (Koran 45:18 and 42:13), as against man-made Shariah (Koran 42:21).
Please understand that I have no intention to belittle anybody else's belief's or impose mine on anybody. I admit here and now, that I'm still learning and just hoping and praying that I don't go astray. Having said that, let me post my observations and questions.
(1) The meaning of the word "Shahar" has been debated about a lot in the discussion. Some say it means "Full Moon", others contend that it means "Month". Don't know if there are other meanings which have been attributed to the word, but these seem to enjoy most popularity. So, I looked up the root word used throughout the Book to see the context that it's been used in different places, namely 2:185, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4 & 97:3, and used both "Full Moon" and "Month" to translate. In all instances, it gave me the impression of a time frame, although in some verses, a significance was attached to these time frames, i.e. "Shahru Ramadana" (2:185) and "Alshahra Alharam" (2:194, 2:217, 5:2, 5:97, 9:5). "Shahar" could very well be a time frame between two markers (e.g. two consecutive full/new moons), which would make sense, for the sake of continuing consistency and giving structure to time measurement. Whatever markers are used (Two consecutive full moons or two consecutive new moons), the time frame between them would be the same, I believe. Correct me, if I'm mistaken.
However, for the significant time frames, like "Shahru Ramadan" and "Alshahra Alharam", the starting marker will be important and understandably so. So, the real question in my mind is, what would that marker be? The New Moon? The Full Moon? The Half Cresent Moon?
The Full Moon Marker, to me, makes more "sense", mainly because it somehow incorporates all the usages of "Shahar" in one word, without skewing the context or understanding of the verses.
(2) The next issue that was discussed was the year. Two verses are used, 10:5 & 17:12. Both mention the sun and the moon, so we can know about the number of years and the count. I personally didn't infer anything concrete from the verse which suggested that the year is either solar or lunar. From what I understand, they're both complementary.
The rising and setting of the sun helps us move from day to day. The phases of the moon give us the count from Shahar to Shahar. The seasonal cycle gives us the reference point for the start of a new year, and help us count the number of years between same seasons, e.g. 3 summers ago = 3 years ago, etc.
Don't really know how the years are consequent to the understanding of Fasting or Ramadan, but I thought I should post what I understood at present.
(3) The word "Myqat" has been discussed as well, attributing the meaning, "timing" to it. Two verses are quoted, 2:189 (which has the plural, "Mawaqit") & 7:142 (which has the singular, "Myqat"). The translations used in the article are as follows:
Quote from: 2:189They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say: "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
Quote from: 7:142And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten: thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
While looking for all instances of the word, "Myqat", I found another verse which contained the word:
Quote from: 56:47-50
- And they used to Say: "After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected?"
- "As well as our forefathers?"
- Say: "The people of old and the later generations,"
- "Will be summoned to an appointed meeting on a predetermined Day."
Substituting "timing" in place of "an appointed meeting" doesn't really lend itself well to the meaning of the verse. However, on the flip side, insert "appointed meeting(s)" in place of "timing(s)" in 2:189 & 7:142, and it still makes... sense.
Now I guess I should get to the point. I don't think that the frequency of "10 nights/days" appearing throughout the Quran necessarily means it relates to Ramadan, or at least I don't see any compelling evidence for it. God's "appointed meeting" with Prophet Musa was completed counting 30 + 10 = 40 nights. So the "completed count" was 40 nights, no? Similarly, 10 days of Hajj are quoted, and Prophet Moses agreement to complete either 8 or 10 years (28:27). Note that the next verse (28:28) mentions him saying, whichever of the two "counts" he accomplishes, there'll be no hard feelings from the employer. So, for all we know he may have "completed" the 8-year count and left. (I'm not sure of any verse in the Book that mentions how much time he was in service before he left. If anyone know, kindly point out my mistake.)
I guess the crux is, even if one occurences in the which display various similarities, it doesn't automatically mean that they are related. Verse 3:7 comes to mind which mentions the danger of seeking to derive interpretations from verses similar to each other. I'm sorry if I'm out of context there, but that is my real concern.
In essence, if I believe that "Shahar Ramadan" represents a particular time frame from one Full Moon to the next and if we witness the First Full Moon which marks the start of the Shahar, then we should complete the count of the "Shahar" with the Fasting. Occam's Razor, I guess.
(4) The bone of contention, "Ramadan". Two views. Proper Noun or Common Noun?
If it is a proper noun, then it's very reasonable to assume that Ramadan was an identifiable word/month in Pre-quranic era of Arabia. Otherwise, no one would know what was being addressed, when the Message was sent down. So, now the question is, "Is there evidence of presence of the word/month of Ramadan in the Pre-quranic era and if so, is it acceptable to anybody who believes that all explanations are in the Book?"
41:44 comes to mind,
Quote from: 41:44And had We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said: "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, Say: "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
I think If "Shahar Ramadan" was not a widely understood and used terminology in Arabia in those days, the signs would still have been unclear which would have contradicted this verse.
But, even this doesn't answer the question, "How do we know if Shahrah Ramadan then is the same Shahrah Ramadan now?" This is part I'm struggling with. Maybe I'm trying to overthink it, I don't know. But something feels missing. I guess I'm expecting a clearer distinction than this.
I look at the convention of naming in general. Everything is given a name which, more often than not, is indicative of its attributes. Take Allah's names in the Quran, for example. Every name takes root from certain attibutes, e.g. Ar-Razzaq (The Ever-Providing) takes root from Rizq (Bounty/Supply/Provisions). It would not surprise me if months, seasons and years were named in the same fashion in early Arabian times. The Gregorian Calender's September and December, for example, take root from "Septa" meaning 7 and "Deca" meaning 10 respectively. Similarly, "Shahra Ramadan" may well have taken cue from it's root "Ra-Miim-Dad", meaning "Scorching Heat", signifying the hottest month.
So, basically, even if "Shahra Ramadan" is a proper noun, it's root might indicate the nature of the time frame itself. In this case, Br. Ayman's Summer Solitice Moon "Marker" seems logical and doesn't seem to create any contradiction in the Book.
Those are my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for having the patience to read through them.
Peace
"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
Quote from: siki on August 24, 2009, 01:54:39 PM
"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
You should have explained this to God to make luner months according to your requirement so that you could adjust it as you wish, when you wish :!
BTW whats the world for full moon in Urdu?
:peace:
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.
Quote from: siki on August 24, 2009, 01:54:39 PM
"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
Sorry, Siki... I might not be understanding you correctly, but when I say "Month", I don't mean the conventional Gregorian month or any other organized month for that matter. I'm just using a generalized one-word term for "Shahar", which basically seems to me as the time frame between 2 consecutive same moon phases, used in the same sense as 9:36. Not attributing a fixed number to them. It's a count from one marker to the other, right?
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 01:01:16 PM
ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs.
Peace
Salaam and welcome back
At least your family didn't abandoned you to some remote Island where you would have to wait for summer and then using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow.
Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color :hail
:! Next time you have argument with your family make sure you have a sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object for the solstice determination
:peace:
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 02:12:43 PM
Salaam and welcome back
At least your family didn't abandoned you to some remote Island
Well.... actually.......
Quote from: Rev.John on August 24, 2009, 02:06:41 PM
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.
Thanks Rev
Time to get meal ready to break fast so will catch up later insha'Allah
:peace:
Peace all,
Quote from: siki on August 24, 2009, 01:54:39 PM
So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life. Moreover, the time frame between two solstices will still be a fixed year within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 02:18:26 PM
Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life and still a year between two solstices will be fixed within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.
Salam
Yes this is true. I was just making the point that there is no such thing as a fixed point in space/time as everything in the universe is moving and speeds change. If you calculate back 1400 or 2000 years ago, it has made a difference in the time between two solstices and the time between the phases of the moon.
I agree that as far as humans are concerned, the change is not very significant within their lifetime.
:peace:
Thanks God that i have been clear enough to make you understand.. :handshake:
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 02:29:15 PM
Thanks God that i have been clear enough to make you understand.. :handshake:
Yes you made your point very well, and of course, you are right.
:handshake:
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 02:18:26 PM
Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life and still a year between two solstices will be fixed within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.
Salam
I agree, moreover Rev , As the civilization has progressed to a level where we have managed to discover the info regarding slowing down of orbits by a second, He in his infinite wisdom knew, that by then we will be able to make "week , hour seconds , nanoseconds etc, and use them. Does he restrict us to using his timing devices only?
siki
Quote from: siki on August 24, 2009, 02:34:56 PM
I agree, moreover Rev , As the civilization has progressed to a level where we have managed to discover the info regarding slowing down of orbits by a second, He in his infinite wisdom knew, that by then we will be able to make "week , hour seconds , nanoseconds etc, and use them. Does he restrict us to using his timing devices only?
siki
Of course we have the ability to add a leap second or leap day here and there to adjust our man-made time keeping to fit in with the "natural" time on the Earth, but it does change our calculations of events in history or the future.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 23, 2009, 09:09:01 PM
As you found out, the starting date of the new era has nothing to do with the supposed date of the Hijra. The Hijri era month 1 actually started about 56 days earlier. So the start date of this new era is a big lie that in reality has nothing to do with the event it claims to be based on. Had month 1 been based on the actual supposed date of Hijra or the closest new moon to it, then the entire era would have been pushed 2 months and this year's Ramadan would be in two months.
Moreover, your entire calculation is erroneous because it ignores that according to the same sectarian sources that you used to conjecture the dates of the various events, the intercalary month was abolished in the year when the prophet died. If you factor this then the 26 Safar date would occur about 89 days (three lunar months) earlier and your dates will be off. So you are essentially implying that the prophet always fasted on the wrong dates.
Again it is an indisputable fact that the present so-called Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and it depends on when some guy decided the era was to start and with which month it started and on the 100% manmade order of the months.
Yet you completely ignore the sun as if 10:5 didn't mention it. This also results in you completely ignoring 17:12 as if the verse didn't exist.
Impossible (full-moon is affecting your mind), without the sun there cannot be moon phases.
Muslim calendar started 1st month Muharram in 622 CE
Hijrah event was in the 3rd month Safar that same year
1. Cannot fast a full-moon
2. Cannot tell a full-moon from a 98% full-moon
3. Cannot apply full-moon illusion
4. Hunting restriction swings by a month from June 21 to July 20
5. Widows wait different time lengths depending on date of event
6. Men fast different time lengths for same offense depending on date of event
7. The blind, those with poor vision, and those living in cloudy weather cannot fast
8. No mention using full-moon calendars and denies all prior lunar new crescent calendars
9. Denies history only 10 years after events
PERF 558, basic logic, and history completely destroys the full-moon fantasy.
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 07:52:56 AM
:handshake: quickduck :sun:
In the past we used to get responses in support of Ayman from the eloquent ones now it?s been switched to a different category. :yeah:
Farida , peace
Ya. :yeah: ,, Most definitely that calls for an alarm on your end that even the beginners have started to digest it with a relative ease.
But As HE said, It would never penetrate, where the hearts are sealed , and ears are locked. because they would always follow what their elders followed, what their preachers preached, but do ponder , what if they were wrong?
siki
Peace Rev,
Quote from: Rev.John on August 24, 2009, 02:39:03 PM
Of course we have the ability to add a leap second or leap day here and there to adjust our man-made time keeping to fit in with the "natural" time on the Earth, but it does change our calculations of events in history or the future.
Yes, but when Ayman said that the summer solstice is in june 21th, they accused him of using man made calendar to apply god's timing system. I see no evil at using weeks, hours, minutes and seconds in our practical daily life, although they have no basis in the quran. But the evil will be ignoring God's timing system for the religious duties. That's the main point.
salam
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 02:52:41 PM
Peace Rev,
Yes, but when Ayman said that the summer solstice is in june 21th, they accused him of using man made calendar to apply god's timing system. I see no evil at using weeks, hours, minutes and seconds in our practical daily life, although they have no basis in the quran. But the evil will be ignoring God's timing system for the religious duties. That's the main point.
salam
Yes I understand. But the only time most people understand is our man-made, inaccurate calenders and time keeping. Time is relevant to where you are and how fast you are travelling. So there can never be an accurate fixed time
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 02:10:51 PM
Sorry, Siki... I might not be understanding you correctly, but when I say "Month", I don't mean the conventional Gregorian month or any other organized month for that matter. I'm just using a generalized one-word term for "Shahar", which basically seems to me as the time frame between 2 consecutive same moon phases, used in the same sense as 9:36. Not attributing a fixed number to them. It's a count from one marker to the other, right?
When God uses the term shahar, He wants us to wait, and then take reference from his marker to start, Not , that we start next day what ever moon shape we see till it returns.
Because next day we might not find the moon. What if it is the thinnest waxing crescent,and is not visible , or may be he does not want us to stay awake whole night, looking for it, if it is the thinnest waning crescent, which only has a very small visibility just before dawn.
Nor does he want us to count more than Ayaam ul Madoodat (a few days which could be easily remembered and tracked on both hands fingers) , because people were uneducated and could mess up the count.
He had to recommend something which could not be missed, so that one could see it, start, forget about the count , continue the practice, and finish when one saw the same bright marker again.
I hope this helps.
siki
Br. Siki,
We're probably on the same track but I think there still might be a communication gap. Let me try and break this down. Your understanding is,
1 - "Shahar" = Full Moon.
2 - 9:36 mentions 12 Full Moons.
3 - 1 Shahar is the time between 2 Full Moons.
Am I correct?
Peace Rex,
Quote from: Rex on August 24, 2009, 02:47:01 PM
Peace Ayman,
Impossible (full-moon is affecting your mind), without the sun there cannot be moon phases.
Muslim calendar started 1st month Muharram in 622 CE
Hijrah event was in the 3rd month Safar that same year
1. Cannot fast a full-moon
2. Cannot tell a full-moon from a 98% full-moon
3. Cannot apply full-moon illusion
4. Hunting restriction swings by a month from June 21 to July 20
5. Widows wait different time lengths depending on date of event
6. Men fast different time lengths for same offense depending on date of event
7. The blind, those with poor vision, and those living in cloudy weather cannot fast
8. No mention using full-moon calendars and denies all prior lunar new crescent calendars
9. Denies history only 10 years after events
PERF 558, basic logic, and history completely destroys the full-moon fantasy.
i'll try to answer your 9 points as of my understanding after reading this thread :
1- but you cannot either have witnessed (past tense ) the hole "month" and then fast it.
2- yes but the main point is not witnessing all the "almost full moons" , it's about witnessing the first one that rises after sunset (even if it is only 95% full moon). then you fast until the crescent phase (max 10 days).
3- i think point 2 answers this ...
4- Not only swings , but it is also very different for both hemispheres. But one thing is a fact : the wildlife follows a lunar-seasons system. you cannot ignore that.
5- what do you think is the purpose for widows to wait?? isn't for making sure that they're not pregnant if they decide to marry again ?? that seems logical for me that they don't wait the same time depending on their menstruating cycle. because as we all know, the menstruating event alters chances of pregnancy.
6- It's not true !!! Men fast exactly the same time frame : between Two consecutive "shahrayn" . if a man do the offense, so he must wait until he sees the full moon , then start fastin until the next full moon . All the Men fast the same time length !!!!!!!!!!! A B C ...easy like 1 2 3 ...
7- in my understanding, the arabic word "shahida" doesn't strictly means "witness by sight". It also means to attend/to be present at. (i.e the olympic stadium "shahida" a great game) (i.e n?2, this forum is "yash'hado" a great debate about ramadan issue). So if the blind person is not living alone in farida's lost island, he will probably know by someone else that the moon is "full" tonight.
8- i'll be pleased to comment this point if i first understand what you mean by it.
9- History may deny the full moon theory, but not the 8 points above.
salam
Peace sharp001
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 03:35:18 PM
Br. Siki,
We're probably on the same track but I think there still might be a communication gap. Let me try and break this down. Your understanding is,
1 - "Shahar" = Full Moon.
2 - 9:36 mentions 12 Full Moons.
3 - 1 Shahar is the time between 2 Full Moons.
Am I correct?
1 - Yes, "shahar" seems to mean "full moon".
2- Yes, 9:36 told us to count EXACTLY 12 "full moons" every year. And as the year is solar dependant (the only definition of the year that fits the quran is : the year is the time frame between 2 shortest/longest day/night, i.e summer solstices or winter solstices). So a "solar" year must contain only 12 full moons, yhe occasional 13 th full moon must be skipped.
3- No, 1 "humain month" is the time between 2 full moons. like a ''humain hour" is the time frame that last 60 " humain minutes" or 3600 "humain seconds". No quranic basis for humain "month" ,"hour" "minutes" nor "seconds"
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 03:56:58 PM
3- No, 1 "humain month" is the time between 2 full moons. like a ''humain hour" is the time frame that last 60 " humain minutes" or 3600 "humain seconds". No quranic basis for humain "month" ,"hour" "minutes" nor "seconds"
You lost me here, QD... What is a "Humain month"?
Salam,
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 03:47:57 PM
7- in my understanding, the arabic word "shahida" doesn't strictly means "witness by sight". It also means to attend/to be present at. (i.e the olympic stadium "shahida" a great game) (i.e n?2, this forum is "yash'hado" a great debate about ramadan issue). So if the blind person is not living alone in farida's lost island, he will probably know by someone else that the moon is "full" tonight.
THAT'S THE WORD : SHA HI DA not BA SHO RO... Everyone here can make SHAHADA to The God.. So everyone here can SHA HI DA shahru romadhona without actually seen it and fast...
salam sharp
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 04:25:12 PM
You lost me here, QD... What is a "Humain month"?
A "humain month", (like humain hour , minutes, seconds, etc..) are man made tools for timing humain life matters and not religious ones. The only timing devices that have basis in the quran are : the day (yawm), the night (layl), the moon phases including it's more obvious state (the full moon = shahr) and the years (sanat or 3am). Also there are the words (7awl = Cycle) . a humain month it's the time frame believed to be as "shahr". But when you realize that "shahr" means "full moon" you'll start understanding
Peace everyone,
Quickduck welcome to the forum. :welcome:
Sharp welcome back to the forum. :welcome: Please excuse quickduck's spelling; he meant "human month".
In addition to what quickduck said, "shahr" cannot mean the interval between two nearly full moons because of the following reasons:
1. According to 9:36 the count of shahr is 12. Sharp, please take any set of solar years and try to count 12 lunar cycles every year. You will be surprised to see that the count of lunar cycles is 11 for two consecutive solar years and is 12 in the third solar year. You will not be able to count at least 12 lunar cycles every solar year. On the other hand you will always be able to count 12 nearly full moons every single solar year. Therefore "shahr" cannot mean lunar cycle or interval between two nearly full moons but can only mean nearly full moon.
2. We are asked to witness the "shahr" then fast it. It is "witnessed" in the past tense in 2:185. The entire lunar cycle can only be witnessed after it has completed. But then how can you fast a period after you have witnessed it? Unless you invent a time machine that will be impossible. Therefore we are not being asked to witness a lunar cycle which is a time frame but we are being asked to witness a marker to start the abstinence.
3. We are asked to abstain for a few days and complete the count. That statement will make sense only if "shahr" is a marker. We are supposed to witness the marker to start the abstinence and then complete the count. If "shahr" meant the interval between two nearly full moons, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant because the lunar cycle already has the full information about the count of abstinence.
4. Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's period in the relevant signs. The women use their period as a marker to start the interim. If a menstruating woman waits for three periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.
5. We are told that the great reading was descended in a single night of qadr. Then we are told that the great reading was descended in shahr ramadhan. Therefore shahr can only mean nearly full moon because if it meant lunar cycle that would contradict with the sign saying that the great reading was descended in the night of qadr.
The reason I keep saying that "shahr" means "nearly full moon" is because technically the moon is never completely full. The moon can only be completely full when the sun, the earth, and the moon are aligned at 180 degrees or in a straight line. This occurs only once in 173 days as explained in one of my previous posts. When that happens, the moon is in the shadow of the earth in a lunar eclipse and is therefore not visible. The so-called full moon which is visible every lunar month is not usually aligned with the sun and the earth at 180 degrees but is slightly above the plane at less than 180 degrees and is therefore "nearly full moon". The classical dictionary meaning also mentions that shahr can mean the moon which is nearly full. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which should increase your faith even further. Had the great reading used a word meaning "completely full moon", that would have contradicted the known scientific fact and the reality that moon can never be full, thereby disqualifying the great reading as the god's word!!!!
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 02:18:26 PM
Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Salaam
You are toooo cleaver :o I made so many spellling/grammar mistakes in my stranded Island senerio yet you understood it so well :bravo:
On the other end is brother SIki who would not tell me the word for full moon in everyday Urdu :(
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
Salaam
You are toooo cleaver :o I made so many spellling/grammar mistakes in my stranded Island senerio yet you understood it so well :bravo:
On the other end is brother SIki who would not tell me the word for full moon in everyday Urdu :(
Chaudhvin Ka Chand
Quote from: afridi220 on August 24, 2009, 05:58:14 PM
Chaudhvin Ka Chand
U mean 14th of moon :o
But 14 is half of 28 :laugh:
neither here nor there :rotfl:
This is the marker for Siki :confused:
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 06:02:05 PM
U mean 14th of moon :o
But 14 is half of 28 :laugh:
neither here nor there :rotfl:
You asked the word for full moon in urdu right
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
Salaam
You are toooo cleaver :o ...
Thank you farida, my mom always told me that ! :offtopic:
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
Peace everyone,
Sharp welcome back to the forum. :welcome:
Thanks, TruthSeeker.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
In addition to what quickduck said, "shahr" cannot mean the interval between two nearly full moons because of the following reasons:
1. According to 9:36 the count of shahr is 12. Sharp, please take any set of solar years and try to count 12 lunar cycles every year. You will be surprised to see that the count of lunar cycles is 11 for two consecutive solar years and is 12 in the third solar year. You will not be able to count at least 12 lunar cycles every solar year. On the other hand you will always be able to count 12 nearly full moons every single solar year. Therefore "shahr" cannot mean lunar cycle or interval between two nearly full moons but can only mean nearly full moon.
Hmmm... Let me see if I get this straight, try and count 12 Lunar cycles, 1st Moon being the Full Moon after the Summer Solictice and let's assume for simplicity's sake that each lunar cycle has 30 days:
1 - 1st Moon - 2nd Moon = 30 days
2 - 2nd Moon - 3rd Moon = 30 days
3 - 3rd Moon - 4th Moon = 30 days
4 - 4th Moon - 5th Moon = 30 days
5 - 5th Moon - 6th Moon = 30 days
6 - 6th Moon - 7th Moon = 30 days
7 - 7th Moon - 8th Moon = 30 days
8 - 8th Moon - 9th Moon = 30 days
9 - 9th Moon - 10th Moon = 30 days
10 - 10th Moon - 11th Moon = 30 days
11 - 11th Moon - 12th Moon = 30 days
12 - 12th Moon - 1st Moon = 30 days
12 cycles in a Solar Year, present and accounted for. 360 days. Or did I completely misunderstand the concept?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
2. We are asked to witness the "shahr" then fast it. It is "witnessed" in the past tense in 2:185. The entire lunar cycle can only be witnessed after it has completed. But then how can you fast a period after you have witnessed it? Unless you invent a time machine that will be impossible. Therefore we are not being asked to witness a lunar cycle which is a time frame but we are being asked to witness a marker to start the abstinence.
Fair enough. Doesn't really change my understanding of beginning the fast after witnessing the marker.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
3. We are asked to abstain for a few days and complete the count. That statement will make sense only if "shahr" is a marker. We are supposed to witness the marker to start the abstinence and then complete the count. If "shahr" meant the interval between two nearly full moons, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant because the lunar cycle already has the full information about the count of abstinence.
Not exactly. At least I don't see it that way. The "complete the count" part clarifies the situation for the exceptions, i.e. being ill or in journey. For example the number of days between 2 Nearly Full Moons is 30 days. I fasted for 15 consecutive days but couldn't fast in the next two days due to illness. At the end of the lunar cycle, out of a total of 30 counted days, which were meant for fasting, I fasted only 28. So I need to fast 2 more days in the next lunar cycle to "complete the count".
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
4. Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's period in the relevant signs. The women use their period as a marker to start the interim. If a menstruating woman waits for three periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the non menstruating woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.
If I understand you correctly, than the reasoning I applied to your first point would apply here, too. Observing 3 Menstruations and Observing 3 Menstrual periods would result in two different time periods. And considering the fact that in the Menstrual cycle, Menstruation is just the first stage, observing the 3rd Menstruation and acting on it, would mean that the 3rd Menstrual cycle wasn't completed as required by the verse.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
5. We are told that the great reading was descended in a single night of qadr. Then we are told that the great reading was descended in shahr ramadhan. Therefore shahr can only mean nearly full moon because if it meant lunar cycle that would contradict with the sign saying that the great reading was descended in the night of qadr.
Hmmm... the Book was revealed/sent down on "Laylat al-qadr", on the night of the starting Marker signaling the start of Ramadan. Doesn't that technically that the the Book was sent down within the time frame of Ramadan, as that night is part of that time frame? Nothing in the verse indicates that the Book was revealed each day/night during the course of the whole of Ramadan. Revelation of the Book in that one night in Ramadan confirms the message without any contradictions that I see.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
The reason I keep saying that "shahr" means "nearly full moon" is because technically the moon is never completely full. The moon can only be completely full when the sun, the earth, and the moon are aligned at 180 degrees or in a straight line. This occurs only once in 173 days as explained in one of my previous posts. When that happens, the moon is in the shadow of the earth in a lunar eclipse and is therefore not visible. The so-called full moon which is visible every lunar month is not usually aligned with the sun and the earth at 180 degrees but is slightly above the plane at less than 180 degrees and is therefore "nearly full moon". The classical dictionary meaning also mentions that shahr can mean the moon which is nearly full. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which should increase your faith even further. Had the great reading used a word meaning "completely full moon", that would have contradicted the known scientific fact and the reality that moon can never be full, thereby disqualifying the great reading as the god's word!!!!
Thanks for that bit of info.
Peace
Peace Sharp,
I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. :'( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. :(
I have already explained all these points in my past posts on this thread IN DETAIL and I didn't want to repeat myself over and over again. That's a logical fallacy of repetition. In any case I would humbly request you to go back and read my older posts and other posts that deal with these points for details. I would also request you to do your homework, like the old Sharp used to do. Instead of inventing your fantasy calendar with every lunar cycle of 30 days, you could have consulted a real solar calendar with lunar phases superimposed and did the calculations but you didn't. Even with your fantasy calendar, had you continued counting the 30 day fantasy lunar cycles in the next solar years you would have found that for the next 2 solar years there would have been 11 complete lunar cycles in each solar year.
Ok let's start step by step and point by point. Let's deal with the first point only for now and when it is settled we can move on to the next one. You can either consider the following luni-solar calendar and count the lunar cycles in each year consecutively for at least 12 years:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html
OR do the following exercise:
Forget about all calendars and see what the reality is. Go out and start counting the lunar cycles for three actual solar years. Start from any solstice as your day 1 of the solar year. Then look for the first full moon after that day. The second full moon after that will complete the first "interval between two full moons" as per your definition of shahr. Count such intervals for the whole solar year until the same next solstice. For example if you started from the summer solstice this year then count the "interval between two full moons" until the summer solstice next year. Do this for at least 3 years and let me know what your findings are.
Let me make a prediction for you. From summer solstice this year (which was June 21) until the day before summer solstice of 2010 (June 20, 2010) you will count 11 complete lunar cycles. The first full moon during this period was on July 7 and the last full moon during this period will be on May 27. But don't take my word for it. Actually observe all the full moons and count the "intervals between two full moons" yourself. Repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2010 to June 20, 2011. You will count 12 complete lunar cycles in that time period. Then repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2011 to June 20, 2012. You will count 11 complete lunar cycles in that time period.
If you want, continue this exercise for the next 12 solar years. You will find that there are actually 11 complete lunar cycles (or intervals between two full moons) for 2 consecutive solar years and 12 complete lunar cycles in the third solar year and this will repeat. This will be empirical proof that shahr cannot mean lunar cycle because you should be able to count at least 12 "shahr" EVERY SOLAR YEAR.
See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 17:36. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.
PS: Wherever I have used the term "full moon" the reader should understand it as referring to the actual "nearly full moon".
Peace
Peace Sharp001,
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 07:02:30 PMHmmm... Let me see if I get this straight, try and count 12 Lunar cycles, 1st Moon being the Full Moon after the Summer Solictice and let's assume for simplicity's sake that each lunar cycle has 30 days:
1 - 1st Moon - 2nd Moon = 30 days
2 - 2nd Moon - 3rd Moon = 30 days
3 - 3rd Moon - 4th Moon = 30 days
4 - 4th Moon - 5th Moon = 30 days
5 - 5th Moon - 6th Moon = 30 days
6 - 6th Moon - 7th Moon = 30 days
7 - 7th Moon - 8th Moon = 30 days
8 - 8th Moon - 9th Moon = 30 days
9 - 9th Moon - 10th Moon = 30 days
10 - 10th Moon - 11th Moon = 30 days
11 - 11th Moon - 12th Moon = 30 days
12 - 12th Moon - 1st Moon = 30 days
12 cycles in a Solar Year, present and accounted for. 360 days. Or did I completely misunderstand the concept?
You partially misunderstood the concept. You are assuming that the beginning of the cycle will fall exactly on the summer solstice. This will rarely happen. Most likely, whatever marker one chooses, whether it is the full-moon or the crescent, will occur sometimes after the solstice. If it is more than 10 days after the solstice then you will only get 11 complete cycles. So as Truthseeker said, most of the times you will only get 11 integer cycles in a year. If you start counting fractions of a cycle then you will end up with 12.3 cycles in a year, never 12. The only way you can count 12 in a year is if "shahr" was an event and meant "full-moon". If it meant "crescent" then you will also have a problem because there are 24-26 crescents in a year.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 07:02:30 PMFair enough. Doesn't really change my understanding of beginning the fast after witnessing the marker.
No it does change your understanding. Now you are forced to say "marker" and not a continuous month. This is due to "witnessed" being in the perfect past tense while "fast" is in the present tense. There is no way around it, "shahr" has to be an event that, as you said, marks the start of the fast.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 07:02:30 PMNot exactly. At least I don't see it that way. The "complete the count" part clarifies the situation for the exceptions, i.e. being ill or in journey. For example the number of days between 2 Nearly Full Moons is 30 days. I fasted for 15 consecutive days but couldn't fast in the next two days due to illness. At the end of the lunar cycle, out of a total of 30 counted days, which were meant for fasting, I fasted only 28. So I need to fast 2 more days in the next lunar cycle to "complete the count".
In 2:184, we also hear that the fast is for a few days ("ayyam ma3doodat"). This would be redundant and useless information if it was already known that "shahr" is 29-30 days.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 07:02:30 PMIf I understand you correctly, than the reasoning I applied to your first point would apply here, too. Observing 3 Menstruations and Observing 3 Menstrual periods would result in two different time periods. And considering the fact that in the Menstrual cycle, Menstruation is just the first stage, observing the 3rd Menstruation and acting on it, would mean that the 3rd Menstrual cycle wasn't completed as required by the verse.
Menstruations are EVENTS exactly like the full-moon is an event. No woman I know has a continuous period from one period to the next, like month is a continuous period from one month to the next. This would be miserable, especially for her husband :).
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 07:02:30 PMHmmm... the Book was revealed/sent down on "Laylat al-qadr", on the night of the starting Marker signaling the start of Ramadan. Doesn't that technically that the the Book was sent down within the time frame of Ramadan, as that night is part of that time frame? Nothing in the verse indicates that the Book was revealed each day/night during the course of the whole of Ramadan. Revelation of the Book in that one night in Ramadan confirms the message without any contradictions that I see.
Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 07:59:13 PM
Peace Sharp,
I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. :'( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. :(
........
See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 17:36. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.
Peace
Salaam Sharp
As you said
I'm visiting FM after a long time I see that last year you stopped posting after this thread: Reply #59 on: January 06, 2008, 10:29:22 PM ?Re: Virgin Birth of Isa
:confused: However you must be wondering how come truthseeker11 seems to know you so well apparently he only joined last year with this post:? Reply #362 on: September 15, 2008, 05:11:10 AM ? on: September 15, 2008, 05:11:10 AM
Being Sharp work out yourself who is actually dual writing here :hmm
Please stay on topic.
We are well aware of who's who and if there's any breach of the rules in this regard.
Posts in response to this will be deleted and/or disciplinary action taken.
Peace quickduck,
Quote from: quickduck on August 24, 2009, 03:47:57 PM
i'll try to answer your 9 points as of my understanding after reading this thread :
1- but you cannot either have witnessed (past tense ) the hole "month" and then fast it.
2- yes but the main point is not witnessing all the "almost full moons" , it's about witnessing the first one that rises after sunset (even if it is only 95% full moon). then you fast until the crescent phase (max 10 days).
3- i think point 2 answers this ...
4- Not only swings , but it is also very different for both hemispheres. But one thing is a fact : the wildlife follows a lunar-seasons system. you cannot ignore that.
5- what do you think is the purpose for widows to wait?? isn't for making sure that they're not pregnant if they decide to marry again ?? that seems logical for me that they don't wait the same time depending on their menstruating cycle. because as we all know, the menstruating event alters chances of pregnancy.
6- It's not true !!! Men fast exactly the same time frame : between Two consecutive "shahrayn" . if a man do the offense, so he must wait until he sees the full moon , then start fastin until the next full moon . All the Men fast the same time length !!!!!!!!!!! A B C ...easy like 1 2 3 ...
7- in my understanding, the arabic word "shahida" doesn't strictly means "witness by sight". It also means to attend/to be present at. (i.e the olympic stadium "shahida" a great game) (i.e n?2, this forum is "yash'hado" a great debate about ramadan issue). So if the blind person is not living alone in farida's lost island, he will probably know by someone else that the moon is "full" tonight.
8- i'll be pleased to comment this point if i first understand what you mean by it.
9- History may deny the full moon theory, but not the 8 points above.
1. But is not an answer, again how do you fast a full-moon?
2. Then your timing is 5 to 6 days off. Try applying for a widow whose husband died today.
3. Incorrect since full moon illusion which occurs a day before the solstice is not counted.
The full moon 29 days after a summer solstice is an ordinary full moon.
4. Again not answering the question.
Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
5. Again not answering the question. Why a woman whose husband died one day after the full-moon waits 29 days longer than a widow whose husband died two days earlier the day before the full-moon?
6. It is true! The clock starts and the sex stops immediately or feeding 60 poor.
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other from before that they touch each other, so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest7. Bingo! Those who know the month of Ramadan has started and witness to do so should fast it.
8. Islamic, Jewish, Chinese new moon crescent calendars where is the full-moon?
9. What points? There were no answers given and totally ignored was PERF 558 and history.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 24, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!
There you go again. Intellectual deception withholding evidence to the contrary.
It started that night in the month of Ramadan. Read your own post.
Quote from: ayman on August 09, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
Not the same night. Only "inzal" happened in one night. On the other hand, the second stage of "tanzil" can happen anytime.
The rest came later at anytime obviously.
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him
Peace Rex/Nun/Pseudo/Eid/whatever future reincarnation,
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM1. But is not an answer, again how do you fast a full-moon?
How after you had witnessed a month you then go back in time and fast it?
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM2. Then your timing is 5 to 6 days off. Try applying for a widow whose husband died today.
This has been answered many times on this thread.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM3. Incorrect since full moon illusion which occurs a day before the solstice is not counted.
It is the one after the solstice that is the scorching full-moon.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AMThe full moon 29 days after a summer solstice is an ordinary full moon.
No it is not. All full-moons are ordinary once they rise up enough in the sky. Please post the elevation of this full-moon where you live and compare it to the elevation of the next full-moon over the same time interval. You will see that it rises slower and to a lower altitude than the other full-moons.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM4. Again not answering the question.
Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
Why according to your arbitrary manmade nonsensical calendar you can kill an animal at anytime in blatant violation of the god's command? You have basically abrogated the restriction on hunting and proposed some nonsense about the words in 5:1-2 only applying during "hajj" and not at any other time.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM5. Again not answering the question. Why a woman whose husband died one day after the full-moon waits 29 days longer than a widow whose husband died two days earlier the day before the full-moon?
Same when she is counting menstruation events. This has been answered many times. Next time try to reincarnate into someone who can read properly and patiently.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM6. It is true! The clock starts and the sex stops immediately or feeding 60 poor.
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other from before that they touch each other, so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest
This is talking about the period between consecutive full-moons.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM7. Bingo! Those who know the month of Ramadan has started and witness to do so should fast it.
You are making up your own sorry scripture. This is not what 2:185 says. This is what you fantacise that it says.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM8. Islamic, Jewish, Chinese new moon crescent calendars where is the full-moon?
All ancient civilizations (and modern ones) use the full-moon for timing things like the harvest (Harvest Moon) and hunting (Hunter Moon).
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM9. What points? There were no answers given and totally ignored was PERF 558 and history.
You are completely ignorant of the basic facts in PERF558 and history. If you were able to read then you would have seen that PERF558 NEVER MENTIONS the word "hijri". So the only thing we can determine from PERF558 is the start date of the new era. All your other dates (death of the prophet, Hijra, etc.) are nothing but conjecture based on circular reasoning. As Herbman intelligently pointed out, the start date of the new era was right after the summer solstice. This was the point of initial diversion. So the only thing that we can deduce is that the prior correct marker of the start of the year was the summer solstice. This will probably go over your head.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AMThere you go again. Intellectual deception withholding evidence to the contrary.
At least I am being me and not feeling ashamed of it. We are still waiting on Eid to provide the picture that you were boasting that you will take of the NEW MOON crescent. When this was exposed as empty boasting, it is no wonder you changed your name to Rex.
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AMIt started that night in the month of Ramadan. Read your own post.
The rest came later at anytime obviously.
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
You still don't understand the difference between "inzal" (decending by the spirit which happened in one night) and "tanzil" (bringing it down to the heart of the prophet which happened over a long time). "Inzal" is one night and not 29-30 days. "Tanzil" is over a long period and not specifically 29-30 days. So your 29-30 days month is completely irrelevant as far as this issue.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 06:02:05 PM
U mean 14th of moon :o
But 14 is half of 28 :laugh:
neither here nor there :rotfl:
This is the marker for Siki :confused:
Dear sister farida. salam
Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, who start counting with an invisible cresent, as #1 day of moon, so logically they would end up numbering the
shahar (full moon) as 14th day of moon.
But how come you ignored when I told you all the roots from sh ha ra, in urdu, like shoharat, Mashhoor, ishtihar etc, all originating and meaning "advertisement" , "something obvious" , " kind of some thing which makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"?
Quote from: farida on August 24, 2009, 07:44:52 AM
crescent of the new moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonthFull Moon ??? Please do not use English term tell us in Slavic: ⰿⱖⱄⱔⱌⱐ (měsęncĭ).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthSomeone ::) You mean Ayman!
:yes
I am a little surprised that a person like you, who has access to computer, wiki etc, thinks of it to be an authority, and is totally ignorant about working/listings in wikipedia?
I am shocked to see that you prefer to understand divine message through a man made book, disregarding over whelming evidence which the Quran itself contains? And that book, which even a novice with a frozen brain can post/edit?
Scope of this forum is to re-study and purify the understanding of divine message, disregarding all existing baggage, purely on logic and evidence.
If you have to stick with "passed on" practices, which in all likelihood have been morphed/ corrupted, I am sorry to say ," You have not understood the spirit behind this forum, and in my opinion, your time spent here probably has been thoroughly wasted.
siki
First, if you call someone worthless you will be in danger of the fires of Hell. And you will be put on trial.
Now, the below is response to Aymans 1st posts:
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2:185 and 2:189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. I agree that the sighting is not easy, but that dont change 2:185 and 2:189. Nobody said it would be easy. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. At least not to me. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2:185. I agree that 2:185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. 10:5 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon;so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. And 10:5, 17:12, 97:1, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2:185. 2:185,2:189, and 10:5 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2:189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7:142 and 89:2 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2:184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 9:36 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun. And the mention of the ten nights in 89:2 (i think) could be refering to the ten nights mentioned in 7:142, or even the ten mentioned in 2:196 even thoe the word "night" is not in that verse for all we know. Unless it is some prophesy or somethin connected to Ayman.
Some countrys end their ramadan 1 day before others because if it is 12am on one side of the globe, it is 12pm on the other side to my knowleadge. Its like salat, when we end salat it is just beginning on the other side to my understanding. Or when it is evening it is dawn on the other side to me understanding. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2:185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2:184-185 and 189. From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2:185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. I also agree that your articles only reflect your personal interpretaion of the verses of quran ( set mainly to justify your therom). And I think this article can be both misleading ( cause it cast doubt, division, and could repel from the path) and benifitial to a degree because it has a different view ( of the year being solar) that makes others research more on this topic and me want to get to the truth and bottom of it by either proving or disproving your therome. So far I am closer to disproving it thoe. With Quran; and disregarding all that he say she say unless confirmed by quran. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.
:eat:
Peace Br. TS,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 07:59:13 PM
Peace Sharp,
I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. :'( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. :(
I'm sorry to have disappointed you. I guess this is one of the many areas of my life, I really haven't pondered over. I hope to look into it further, soon. Till that time, I'll try to post as little as I can.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 07:59:13 PM
I have already explained all these points in my past posts on this thread IN DETAIL and I didn't want to repeat myself over and over again. That's a logical fallacy of repetition. In any case I would humbly request you to go back and read my older posts and other posts that deal with these points for details. I would also request you to do your homework, like the old Sharp used to do. Instead of inventing your fantasy calendar with every lunar cycle of 30 days, you could have consulted a real solar calendar with lunar phases superimposed and did the calculations but you didn't. Even with your fantasy calendar, had you continued counting the 30 day fantasy lunar cycles in the next solar years you would have found that for the next 2 solar years there would have been 11 complete lunar cycles in each solar year.
I apologize. My mistake that I didn't go through all the 80 pages of this thread, just went through first 22 pages before I jumped here. In my defense, all I can say is I needed an answer within the span of 5-6 hours, which definitely was unreasonable. But, in the end, I wasn't able to convince either myself or my brother of not fasting in the (how you would call it) so-called month of Ramadan, and ended up fasting yesterday, am fasting today and probably will till the end of this so-called month of Ramadan.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 07:59:13 PM
Ok let's start step by step and point by point. Let's deal with the first point only for now and when it is settled we can move on to the next one. You can either consider the following luni-solar calendar and count the lunar cycles in each year consecutively for at least 12 years:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html
OR do the following exercise:
Forget about all calendars and see what the reality is. Go out and start counting the lunar cycles for three actual solar years. Start from any solstice as your day 1 of the solar year. Then look for the first full moon after that day. The second full moon after that will complete the first "interval between two full moons" as per your definition of shahr. Count such intervals for the whole solar year until the same next solstice. For example if you started from the summer solstice this year then count the "interval between two full moons" until the summer solstice next year. Do this for at least 3 years and let me know what your findings are.
Let me make a prediction for you. From summer solstice this year (which was June 21) until the day before summer solstice of 2010 (June 20, 2010) you will count 11 complete lunar cycles. The first full moon during this period was on July 7 and the last full moon during this period will be on May 27. But don't take my word for it. Actually observe all the full moons and count the "intervals between two full moons" yourself. Repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2010 to June 20, 2011. You will count 12 complete lunar cycles in that time period. Then repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2011 to June 20, 2012. You will count 11 complete lunar cycles in that time period.
If you want, continue this exercise for the next 12 solar years. You will find that there are actually 11 complete lunar cycles (or intervals between two full moons) for 2 consecutive solar years and 12 complete lunar cycles in the third solar year and this will repeat. This will be empirical proof that shahr cannot mean lunar cycle because you should be able to count at least 12 "shahr" EVERY SOLAR YEAR.
I think I may have misunderstood the whole thing from the outset, because my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 07:59:13 PM
See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 17:36. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.
Ah, what a wonderful sign.
Quote from: Free Minds Translastion of The Quran17:36 - And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Thanks for the reminder.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 24, 2009, 07:59:13 PM
PS: Wherever I have used the term "full moon" the reader should understand it as referring to the actual "nearly full moon".
Yes, I perfectly understand. Thanks.
Peace Br. Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 24, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
Peace Sharp001,
You partially misunderstood the concept. You are assuming that the beginning of the cycle will fall exactly on the summer solstice. This will rarely happen. Most likely, whatever marker one chooses, whether it is the full-moon or the crescent, will occur sometimes after the solstice. If it is more than 10 days after the solstice then you will only get 11 complete cycles. So as Truthseeker said, most of the times you will only get 11 integer cycles in a year. If you start counting fractions of a cycle then you will end up with 12.3 cycles in a year, never 12. The only way you can count 12 in a year is if "shahr" was an event and meant "full-moon". If it meant "crescent" then you will also have a problem because there are 24-26 crescents in a year.
Like I said to TS, I may have started off on the wrong foot. My line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?
Quote from: ayman on August 24, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
No it does change your understanding. Now you are forced to say "marker" and not a continuous month. This is due to "witnessed" being in the perfect past tense while "fast" is in the present tense. There is no way around it, "shahr" has to be an event that, as you said, marks the start of the fast.
Hmm... I see where you're coming from, and it seems logical. But come to think of it, the current practice is the same in theory, even though the marker and the time of year may be wrong. Around the world, as soon as the New Moon is sighted/witnessed, the month and the fasting begins the next day. Again, I'm not justifying or validating the practice, just making an observation.
Quote from: ayman on August 24, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
In 2:184, we also hear that the fast is for a few days ("ayyam ma3doodat"). This would be redundant and useless information if it was already known that "shahr" is 29-30 days.
I totally overlooked that verse. Your claim of redunduncy has merit.
Quote from: ayman on August 24, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
Menstruations are EVENTS exactly like the full-moon is an event. No woman I know has a continuous period from one period to the next, like month is a continuous period from one month to the next. This would be miserable, especially for her husband :).
I agree that Mestruations are events. I think I may have misunderstood the verses as I took the Period to mean the Menstrual Cycle, whereas I think it indicates the Menstruation Phase of the cycle. Please correct me, if I'm mistaken.
Quote from: ayman on August 24, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!
I think you and TS may have misunderstood what I meant. I'll try to illustrate it.
If I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?
So basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down
in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down
throughout the "month".
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 12:56:46 AM
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other from before that they touch each other, so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest
This is talking about the period between consecutive full-moons.
Sorry about being off-topic, but I have a question about this verse. The period between two full-moons would/can be 29-30 days, but the feeding is to 60 poorest. It seems kind of odd and non-symmetrical (for lack of a better word). 30 days or 60 feedings? I expected, 30 days and 30 feeding, or 60 days and 60 feedings, for equality, I guess.
Peace All
Quote from: ayman on August 23, 2009, 09:09:01 PM
Yet you completely ignore the sun as if 10:5 didn't mention it. This also results in you completely ignoring 17:12 as if the verse didn't exist.
10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the
moon a light, and He
measured its phases so that you would know the
number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?
Peace Br Sharp,
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PM
I think I may have misunderstood the whole thing from the outset, because my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?
The old Sharp is back :yay: :yay: :yay:
Everyone watch out now :P
The answer to your above question is yes.
Quotemy line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan"
Now everyone can see why I am a Sharp fan. This Sharp theory is the best attack I have ever seen on Ayman theory :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: It has gotten me excited on this topic again !!
This theory will pass the 9:36 test with flying colors !! One always counts 12 lunar cycles from one shahr ramadhan to start of the next. Once every 3 years there will be thirteen shahrs (lunar cycles) from the start of the first cycle (shahr ramadhan) until the end of the last shahr before shahr ramadhan but the thirteenth shahr is then skipped. INGENIOUS theory but it has some problems as I will discuss later.
Ayman theory of counting 12 nearly full moons in a solar year passes this test also. So this point is a draw !!
One will have to witness the whole shahr ramadhan cycle of 29-30 days first and can then abstain for a few days starting from the second full moon at the end of shahr ramadhan and complete the count of the few days by abstaining for ten days. This would pass the 2:185 test also !!
This point is a draw also between Ayman theory and Sharp theory !!
QuoteIf I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?
So basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down throughout the "month".
I will accede this point because it can go either way. :bravo:
Shahr ramadhan allathee unzila fihi al-qur'an can also be used to refer to descent in one night of the lunar cycle of shahr ramadhan so it wouldnt contradict either Ayman theory or Sharp theory !! So this point is a draw also between the two theories !!
There are two problems however with Sharp theory. If it was not for the signs mentioning the menstrual periods to determine interim compared to count of shahr determining the interim and the sign mentioning night and day as the sole determinants of the solar year, Sharp theory would have been a complete draw with Ayman theory !!
1. Sharp theory makes the year primarily lunar whereas according to 17:12 it is primarily solar. According to 17:12 one should be able to determine the year using only day and night and the only way to do that is from one solstice to the next and not from one shahr ramadhan to the next.
One point to Ayman theory !!
2. Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's menstrual period in the relevant signs. The women are asked to use their menstrual periods as markers to determine the interim after divorce. If a menstruating woman waits for three menstrual periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.
One point to Ayman theory !!
End result:
Ayman theory wins by 2-0 with three draws !!
I will leave brother Ayman to carry on the discussion with you because now that the old Sharp is back, it should be an interesting discussion. :handshake:
Peace
Peace Ayman,
You say: ??here are the exact dates without using any human calendar:
This year the night of the fast was: The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Next year the night of the fast will be: The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice?
There are many contradictions in these statements. I will only point two of them to you. Perchance you may reflect.
In 2010 the full-moon after summer solstice occurs on 26 June at 7:31 AM (long W77.0, lat N38.9). This is a daytime full-moon which contradicts the night of the first full-moon. I suppose you are not fasting in 2010 because you don?t see the full-moon at night. Remember the next night moon is not a full-moon.
Now let?s see how you violate the verse 20:2 ? We did not reveal the Quran to you, to cause you any hardship.
In 2011 the full-moon after summer solstice occurs on 15 July at 2:40 AM (long W77.0, lat N38.9).
Now, Ayman requires that everyone (young, old and ill persons) must witness the full-moon at 2:40 AM (past midnight). Tell me Ayman, is this not hardship. You are contradicting verse 20:2.
These contradictions constitute the final nail on the coffin of Ayman?s Ramadan theory.
Recant your article, repent and come back to straight path.
You say: ?I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading???
You don?t follow the Quranic timing. You follow the timing ordained by classic Arabic dictionary. Give us a Quranic verse that tells us to consult classic Arabic dictionary to determine Quranic meaning. You are seeing Quran through the eyes of classic Arabic dictionary just as most Christian see Jesus through John, Mark, Paul, ?.You have surrendered your sole and the innermost thought to the classic Arabic dictionary. Your dictionary is a hadith making factory. The use of such approach exhibits very poor judgment on your part. The right way to study Quran is to seek God?s help and not the help of classic Arabic dictionary. The God is the teacher of the Quran. Unfortunately you elected Arabic dictionary as your teacher. What a miserable choice indeed.
You say: ?.. and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet.?
This is a false accusation against Umar. Where is your evidence? Did you witness Umar actions or do you have a evidence from the Quran? Only a liar would do what you are doing. For all we know the timing may have been ordained by Prophet Muhammad himself. Anyway these are irrelevant discussion, what matter is the truth about your proposed timing system? Please do not try to change the subject.
You say: ??.Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir.?
Farida is CORRECT. The Quran says Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. Nowhere in the Quran have we found that Ayman was given wisdom. On the contrary the Quran warns us about people like you who twist God?s words. Your understanding of Quranic verses and the lack of scientific knowledge justifies Farida?s conclusion.
You say: ??You or any of the other thinly disguised Sunnis hypocritically pretending to follow the great reading?
Again this is another false accusation. Where are you evidence? This behavior alone is sufficient to reject you as a righteous person. You are really a master manipulator and a misguided person. Satan is real proud of you.
Br. TS,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 01:20:54 PM
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PM
I think I may have misunderstood the whole thing from the outset, because my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?
The answer to your above question is yes.
That's good to hear. Now I know what page I should be on.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 01:20:54 PM
Quotemy line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan"
The problem with this line of thinking is that firstly it ignores the role of the sun in determining the year per the great reading (17:12 and 10:5) and secondly this line of thinking will result in a year that will not be in sync with the seasons thereby ending up violating the hunting restrictions as ordained by the god in the inviolable shuhoor.
True, but Br. Progressive asks a pertinent question about 10:5.
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 01:00:57 PM
10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?
This creates an apparent contradiction to the understanding of 17:12. Br. Ayman has reasoned that out in his article as follows:
Quote10.5. It is He who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light and made it stages; so that you might know the number of years and the calculation. The God didn't create this except with the truth, He explains His signs to people who know.
From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon, however there is no mention of a specific stage of the moon. Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 17:12:
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.
Both verses use "know the number of years and the calculation" in the same sense. The explanation that Br. Ayman gave for the firse verse that, "the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon", does seem to apply to the second verse as well.
On a side note, I found this article on Miraclesofthequran.com, which I post here:
Quote from: Miraclesofthequran.comCALCULATING THE LUNAR YEAR
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it phases so you would know the number of years and the reckoning of time. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know. (Qur'an, 10:5)
And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. (Qur'an, 36:39)
In the first of the above verses, Allah has clearly revealed that the Moon will be a means of measurement for people to calculate the year. Furthermore, our attention is also drawn to the fact that these calculations will be performed according to the positions of the Moon as it revolves in its orbit. Since the angles between the Earth and Moon and the Moon and Sun constantly change, we see the Moon in different forms at different times. Furthermore, our ability to see the Moon is made possible by the fact that it is illuminated by the Sun. The amount of the lighted half of the Moon we see from Earth changes. Bearing in mind these changes, a number of calculations can be made, making it possible for human beings to measure the year.
In former times a month was calculated as the time between two full moons, or the time it took the Moon to travel around the Earth. According to this, one month was equal to 29 days, 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is known as the "lunar month." Twelve lunar months represent one year, according to the Hijri calendar. However, there is a difference of eleven days between the Hijri calendar and the Gregorian calendar, in which a year is the time it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun. Indeed, attention is drawn to this difference in another verse:
They stayed in their Cave for three hundred years and added nine. (Qur'an, 18:25)
We can clarify the time referred to in the verse thus: 300 years x 11 days (the difference which forms every year) = 3,300 days. Bearing in mind that one solar year lasts 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.5 seconds, 3,300 days/365.24 days = 9 years. To put it another way, 300 years according to the Gregorian calendar is equal to 300+9 years according to the Hijri calendar. As we can see, the verse refers to this finely calculated difference of 9 years. (Allah knows best.) There is no doubt that the Qur'an, which contains such pieces of information, which transcended the everyday knowledge of the time, is a miraculous revelation.
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_13.htmlNot entirely sure if this is of any significance or relevance, but it looked like food for thought.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 01:20:54 PM
I will leave brother Ayman to carry on the discussion with you because now that the old Sharp is back, it should be an interesting discussion. :handshake:
:)... I wouldn't get your hopes up, if I were you, because I don't think I'll bring anything new to the table that Br. Ayman has already heard or read. I'll just go through this thread, jot down my questions as and when they arise, and see if they were addressed by him or anybody else in the thread or his article. If not, then I post a question, otherwise, I don't want to bother him by asking him the same questions that he or anybody else has already answered repeatedly over and over again.
Peace Br. Sharp,
Sorry for the late modification of my above post but your theory got me thinking. I will re-post the relevant portion that you missed with some minor changes:
Quotemy line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan"
Now everyone can see why I am a Sharp fan. This Sharp theory is the best attack I have ever seen on Ayman theory :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: It has gotten me excited on this topic again !!
This theory will pass the 9:36 test with flying colors !! One always counts 12 lunar cycles from one shahr ramadhan to start of the next. Once every 3 years there will be thirteen shahrs (lunar cycles) from the start of the first cycle (shahr ramadhan) until the end of the last lunar cycle before the next shahr ramadhan cycle but the thirteenth shahr is then skipped. INGENIOUS theory but it has some problems as I will discuss later.
Ayman theory of counting 12 nearly full moons in a solar year passes this test also. So this point is a draw !!
The year will be synchronized to the seasons in both theories and hunting restriction in the inviolable shuhoor will not be violated. I just realized that. So this will be a draw between the two theories also !!
One will have to witness the whole shahr ramadhan cycle of 29-30 days first and can then abstain for a few days starting from the second full moon at the end of shahr ramadhan and complete the count of the few days by abstaining for ten days. This would pass the 2:185 test also !!
This point is a draw also between Ayman theory and Sharp theory !!
QuoteIf I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?
So basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down throughout the "month".
I will accede this point because it can go either way.
Shahr ramadhan allathee unzila fihi al-qur'an can also be used to refer to descent in one night of the lunar cycle of shahr ramadhan so it wouldnt contradict either Ayman theory or Sharp theory !! So this point is a draw also between the two theories !!
There are two problems however with Sharp theory. If it was not for the signs mentioning the menstrual periods to determine interim compared to count of shahr determining the interim and the sign mentioning night and day as the sole determinants of the solar year, Sharp theory would have been a complete draw with Ayman theory !!
1. Sharp theory makes the year primarily lunar whereas according to 17:12 it is primarily solar. According to 17:12 one should be able to determine the year using
only day and night and the only way to do that is from one solstice to the next and not from one shahr ramadhan to the next.
One point to Ayman theory !!
2. Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's menstrual period in the relevant signs. The women are asked to use their menstrual periods as markers to determine the interim after divorce. If a menstruating woman waits for three menstrual periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.
One point to Ayman theory !!
End result:
Ayman theory wins by 2-0 with four draws !!
Peace all,
Here is my latest understanding for 10:5
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.
For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.
example : in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.
So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)
I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.
salam
Peace everyone,
Quote from: quickduck on August 25, 2009, 03:19:27 PM
Here is my latest understanding for 10:5
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.
For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.
example : in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.
So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)
I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
I am becoming a quickduck fan also !!
Br. TS,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 03:09:18 PM
Now everyone can see why I am a Sharp fan. This Sharp theory is the best attack I have ever seen on Ayman theory :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: It has gotten me excited on this topic again !!
Thanks for the compliment and all, but I don't think I'm anybody new who presented this "theory". Now that I'm re-reading the thread, most of my questions and observations mirror what Sis. Marie made in the first 3 pages of this topic.
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 03:09:18 PM
1. Sharp theory makes the year primarily lunar whereas according to 17:12 it is primarily solar. According to 17:12 one should be able to determine the year using only day and night and the only way to do that is from one solstice to the next and not from one shahr ramadhan to the next.
I'm still trying to understand the connection between the signs of the night and the day with the year being solar. Br. Ayman reasoned that the night and the day are both functions of the Sun. How was that conclusion reached?
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 03:09:18 PM
2. Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's menstrual period in the relevant signs. The women are asked to use their menstrual periods as markers to determine the interim after divorce. If a menstruating woman waits for three menstrual periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.
As I mention in an earlier post of mine,
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 24, 2009, 01:01:16 PM
(1) The meaning of the word "Shahar" has been debated about a lot in the discussion. Some say it means "Full Moon", others contend that it means "Month". Don't know if there are other meanings which have been attributed to the word, but these seem to enjoy most popularity. So, I looked up the root word used throughout the Book to see the context that it's been used in different places, namely 2:185, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4 & 97:3, and used both "Full Moon" and "Month" to translate. In all instances, it gave me the impression of a time frame, although in some verses, a significance was attached to these time frames, i.e. "Shahru Ramadana" (2:185) and "Alshahra Alharam" (2:194, 2:217, 5:2, 5:97, 9:5). "Shahar" could very well be a time frame between two markers, which would make sense, for the sake of continuing consistency and giving structure to time measurement. Whatever markers are used, the time frame between them would be the same, I believe. Correct me, if I'm mistaken.
If "Shahar" is taken in the sense a period between two markers, then in the case of 65:4 it can be understood as the period between one event of Menstruation to the next.
1st Menstruation - 2nd Menstruation = 1st Shahar (Approx. 28 days)
2nd Menstruation - 3rd Menstruation = 2nd Shahar (Approx. 28 days)
3rd Menstruation - 4th Menstruation = 3rd Shahar (Approx. 28 days)
Br. QD
Quote from: quickduck on August 25, 2009, 03:19:27 PM
Peace all,
Here is my latest understanding for 10:5
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.
For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.
example : in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.
So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)
I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.
salam
What if we apply the same logic to 17:12?
Quote from: Free Minds Translation of the QuranAnd We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
Wouldn't that mean the sign of the night would be used to know the number of years and the sign of the day be used to know the count?
Peace and thank you all for indulging me.
Quote from: siki on August 25, 2009, 02:06:05 AM
Dear sister farida. salam
Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Roman Salute Siki,
:yuck: Your style is not much different from the white supremacists or illuminates who are eager to cleanse the world of ?the plague?.
I guess you are too consumed with hatred to be reminded of the language when referring to النَّاسِ
QuoteBut how come you ignored when I told you all the roots...
Just- like- YOU
Quotefrom sh ha ra, in urdu, like shoharat, Mashhoor, ishtihar etc, all originating and meaning "advertisement" , "something obvious" , " kind of some thing which makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"?
:hmm In that case could you provide me with your source beside wiki to confirm that the Hellenic calendars, the Hebrew Lunisolar calendar and the Islamic Lunar calendar did not consider the first appearance of the thin crescent of the new moon as shoharat, Mashhoor, ishtihar, for a new month
QuoteI am shocked to see that you prefer to understand divine message through a man made book,
And be even more shocked :o that I refuse to count ?
AAiddata alshshuhoori? with a manmade sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object. :nope:
QuoteIf you have to stick with ?passed on" practices, which in all likelihood have been morphed/ corrupted,
:) Let me share with you which ?passed on? practice I follow: Every day at dawn I read Qur?an for the signs and this morning I witnessed today?s lesson in Surah 33:
66: On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, we wish we had obeyed God, and obeyed the messenger
67- And they will say: "Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path."
68- Our Lord, give them double the retribution, and curse them with a mighty curse
69-O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.
70-O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth
71- He will then direct your works, and forgive your sins. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger has triumphed a great triumph
72 -We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant
73- So that God may punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, and the men who set up partners and the women who set up partners. And God redeems the believing men and the believing women. And God is Forgiver, MercifulQuoteScope of this forum is to re-study and purify the understanding of divine message, disregarding all existing baggage, purely on logic and evidence.
You may take this forum to be your leader for restudying, re-doing and disregarding the system established by the honourable messengers, but I, purely on logic and evidence see this forum very differently from you.
Quote," You have not understood the spirit behind this forum, and in my opinion
Sir you are an old established original member of Ayman club so you obviously have better insight of the spirit behind this forum.
Quoteyour time spent here probably has been thoroughly wasted.
Or maybe, my time here is thoroughly wasting your efforts
:peace:
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 01:00:57 PM
10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?
Salaam Progressive,
Do you really expect Ayman's club members to pay attention to anything which would negate their theory :nope:
61:8 Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light with their mouths: But Allah will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
:peace:
ps: I may be banned soon as I have offended the Moderators :& :( :pr
Peace everyone,
Br. Sharp, before leaving, one final comment. Ayman's theory pinpoints the time of laylat al-qadr but your theory leaves one guessing as to which night of the lunar cycle is laylat al-qadr. The great reading has all the details concerning our guidance, remember? So one more point for Ayman's theory. So final score 3-0 with four draws in favor of Ayman theory.
Peace
Br. TS,
As for the Laylat Al-Qadar, I wanted to ask, what would you different on that night, than any other Ramadan night and for what purpose? You can pm me, if you don't want to or are allowed to post.
Peace
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
Peace Rex/Nun/Pseudo/Eid/whatever future reincarnation,
Who cares about nom de plumes or pseudonyms and purposely change my email and password to something unrecoverable to focus on work. Although the nonsense being posted keeps me coming back to respond, first it was the nineteen ignorant and now this absurdity. Don't worry almost done here.
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
How after you had witnessed a month you then go back in time and fast it?
This has been answered many times on this thread.
Topic is about hot moon and proves you don?t have an answer so you keep responding with questions.
AGAIN, HOW DO YOU FAST A FULL MOON?
Also read what I was answering, the 95% full moon therefore 5 to 6 day window.
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
It is the one after the solstice that is the scorching full-moon.
No it is not. All full-moons are ordinary once they rise up enough in the sky. Please post the elevation of this full-moon where you live and compare it to the elevation of the next full-moon over the same time interval. You will see that it rises slower and to a lower altitude than the other full-moons.
First you were on the full moon illusion. Then it was proven to you it is not applicable.
Tell your cult that the FULL MOON ILLUSION has ZERO to do with it.
Also was it slower, lower, bigger, or redder than last year?s full moon before the solstice?
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
Why according to your arbitrary manmade nonsensical calendar you can kill an animal at anytime in blatant violation of the god's command? You have basically abrogated the restriction on hunting and proposed some nonsense about the words in 5:1-2 only applying during "hajj" and not at any other time.
Correct it is a local restriction during Hajj.
Topic is about hot moon and proves you don?t have an answer so you keep asking questions.
Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
Same when she is counting menstruation events. This has been answered many times. Next time try to reincarnate into someone who can read properly and patiently.
No it has not.
Again, why a widow whose husband died one day after full-moon waits 29 days longer than whose husband died two days earlier?
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
This is talking about the period between consecutive full-moons.
You are making up your own sorry scripture. This is not what 2:185 says. This is what you fantacise that it says.
The only fantasy in this thread is hot moon nonsense.
If happened today, the clock starts immediately not the next full moon.
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poorOf course, we know you?ll skip over this as well and continue to post questions not provide answers.
Quote from: ayman on August 25, 2009, 01:34:10 AM
This was the point of initial diversion. So the only thing that we can deduce is that the prior correct marker of the start of the year was the summer solstice. This will probably go over your head.
Right, the hot moon fantasy is all in your head. When was this solstice again, during Dhu al-Hijjah?
New Moon Date
1/17/622 7. Rajab
16-Feb 8. Sha'aban
18-Mar 9. Ramadan
16-Apr 10. Shawwal
16-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Jun
12. Dhu al-Hijjah 14-Jul 1. Muharram
12-Aug 2. Safar Sept 9 (26 Safar) Hijra
11-Sep 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-Oct 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-Nov 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Dec 6. Jumada al-thani
Quote
We are still waiting on Eid to provide the picture that you were boasting that you will take of the NEW MOON crescent.
Was traveling, perhaps at Eid or any other "D" at the beginning of a new month.
People take pictures of the new moon crescent all the time.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=new%20moon%20crescent&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Quote
You still don't understand the difference between "inzal" (decending by the spirit which happened in one night) and "tanzil" (bringing it down to the heart of the prophet which happened over a long time). "Inzal" is one night and not 29-30 days. "Tanzil" is over a long period and not specifically 29-30 days. So your 29-30 days month is completely irrelevant as far as this issue.
How many times already. Quran started in a night, in the month of Ramadan. The rest came later in stages could be years.
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?Again, do the blind fast?
Again, do those in cloudy weather fast?
We know, you?ll avoid answering come back with more questions.
Quote from: quickduck on August 25, 2009, 03:19:27 PM
Peace all,
Here is my latest understanding for 10:5
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.
For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.
example : in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.
So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)
I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.
salam
10:5 10:5 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. 2:185,2:189, and 10:5 leave no doubt that the year is lunar.
From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon. :jedi:
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 11:29:40 PM
Peace Ayman,
Who cares about nom de plumes or pseudonyms and purposely change my email and password to something unrecoverable to focus on work. Although the nonsense being posted keeps me coming back to respond, first it was the nineteen ignorant and now this absurdity. Don't worry almost done here.
Salaam Brother
It would be a shame if you stopped posting here as your contribution is greatly appreciated at least by me.
You have never dual posted right? Whenever you came with a new ID you made it very obvious that it?s from you. Ayman is making fuss about it since I mentioned you in my reply below #1070
Quote from: farida on August 19, 2009, 12:24:24 PM
Salaam
Your questions are answered in detail in this link : http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg213934#msg213934
Since we are suppose to do our own research and not follow others blindly I would suggest you study all posts by EId , Pseudo, Nun and Rex in response to Ayman?s claim.
:peace:
Best regards
Going back to the topic:
Quote from: Rex on August 25, 2009, 11:29:40 PM
Peace Ayman,
Who cares about nom de plumes or pseudonyms and purposely change my email and password to something unrecoverable to focus on work. Although the nonsense being posted keeps me coming back to respond, first it was the nineteen ignorant and now this absurdity. Don't worry almost done here.
Topic is about hot moon and proves you don?t have an answer so you keep responding with questions.
AGAIN, HOW DO YOU FAST A FULL MOON?
Also read what I was answering, the 95% full moon therefore 5 to 6 day window.
http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php
First you were on the full moon illusion. Then it was proven to you it is not applicable.
Tell your cult that the FULL MOON ILLUSION has ZERO to do with it.
Also was it slower, lower, bigger, or redder than last year?s full moon before the solstice?
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Correct it is a local restriction during Hajj.
Topic is about hot moon and proves you don?t have an answer so you keep asking questions.
Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?
No it has not.
Again, why a widow whose husband died one day after full-moon waits 29 days longer than whose husband died two days earlier?
The only fantasy in this thread is hot moon nonsense.
If happened today, the clock starts immediately not the next full moon.
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
Of course, we know you?ll skip over this as well and continue to post questions not provide answers.
Right, the hot moon fantasy is all in your head. When was this solstice again, during Dhu al-Hijjah?
New Moon Date
1/17/622 7. Rajab
16-Feb 8. Sha'aban
18-Mar 9. Ramadan
16-Apr 10. Shawwal
16-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
14-Jul 1. Muharram
12-Aug 2. Safar Sept 9 (26 Safar) Hijra
11-Sep 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-Oct 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-Nov 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Dec 6. Jumada al-thani
Was traveling, perhaps at Eid or any other "D" at the beginning of a new month.
People take pictures of the new moon crescent all the time.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=new%20moon%20crescent&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
How many times already. Quran started in a night, in the month of Ramadan. The rest came later in stages could be years.
25:32-33 And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
80: He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
Again, do the blind fast?
Again, do those in cloudy weather fast?
We know, you?ll avoid answering come back with more questions.
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Also, another question
for ayman:
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2:185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila
feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqan
And how about fasting in a moon... is that part of your wishful thinking as well?
Therefore, those of you who
witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast
therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
Peace AW,
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 25, 2009, 11:14:22 AMRamadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting.
It does depend on when year 0 month 1 was made to start. It also depends on the order of the months. For example, had the first month been in the new calendar been the prior new moon crescent then your so-called Ramadhan would be one month earlier. Also, had the arbitrary order of the months been such that Ramadhan is the 10th month then you would be fasting one month later. This is indisputable truth.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Sharp001,
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMLike I said to TS, I may have started off on the wrong foot. My line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?
Yes.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMHmm... I see where you're coming from, and it seems logical. But come to think of it, the current practice is the same in theory, even though the marker and the time of year may be wrong. Around the world, as soon as the New Moon is sighted/witnessed, the month and the fasting begins the next day. Again, I'm not justifying or validating the practice, just making an observation.
The current practice has nothing to do with what 2:185 is saying. If one understands that "shahr" means "month" then according to 2:185 one should first witness the month (past tense) and then go back in time and abstain. It is therefore a physical impossibility for "shahr" to mean "month".
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMI totally overlooked that verse. Your claim of redunduncy has merit.
Yes.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMI agree that Mestruations are events. I think I may have misunderstood the verses as I took the Period to mean the Menstrual Cycle, whereas I think it indicates the Menstruation Phase of the cycle. Please correct me, if I'm mistaken.
You are now correct.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMI think you and TS may have misunderstood what I meant. I'll try to illustrate it.
If I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?
Birth is not a good example because it is known that birth happens in an instant at a specific time. A better example would be something that can span a long time like if you were "taveling". If you say that you were traveling in March and you were traveling on the night of the full-moon, then your statement becomes at best ambiguous since now it is not clear whether you traveled the entire month or just the night of the full-moon and at worst outright contraditory. On the other hand, the god's words are very precise.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMSo basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down throughout the "month".
This is talking about the period between consecutive full-moons.
But then you will be violating 9:36 because in most years you will only have 11 integer lunar cycles. If you start counting fractions of cycles, then you will get 12.3 cycles per year, again violating 9:36.
Quote from: Sharp001 on August 25, 2009, 12:13:24 PMSorry about being off-topic, but I have a question about this verse. The period between two full-moons would/can be 29-30 days, but the feeding is to 60 poorest. It seems kind of odd and non-symmetrical (for lack of a better word). 30 days or 60 feedings? I expected, 30 days and 30 feeding, or 60 days and 60 feedings, for equality, I guess.
Please see 5:89 where feeding 10 poorest is equivalent to abstaining for 3 days.
So here we have 1 day of abstinence = 3.33 poorest!
Hence, feeding the poorest and days of abstinence are certainly not 1:1 and their ratio depends on what it is we are compensating for.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 01:00:57 PM10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?
Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 17:12, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 25, 2009, 01:20:54 PMThis theory will pass the 9:36 test with flying colors !! One always counts 12 lunar cycles from one shahr ramadhan to start of the next. Once every 3 years there will be thirteen shahrs (lunar cycles) from the start of the first cycle (shahr ramadhan) until the end of the last shahr before shahr ramadhan but the thirteenth shahr is then skipped. INGENIOUS theory but it has some problems as I will discuss later.
No it won't pass the test. As soon as you start to count integer cycles then most years you will only get 11 cycles. If you start counting fractions then you will get 12.3 between solstices, again violating 9:36. The only way 9:36 is not violated is if "shahr" meant full-moon because you can then count exactly 12 every single year (whether the year has 12 or 13). You see one can count 12 out of 12 or 13 but not out of 11.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace to all the forum
I once read somewhere that the word "day" is in the Qur'an 365 times and the word "month" is in there 12 times (claimed proof of a solar calendar). Has anyone ever checked? I'm guessing you have to look for the words in arabic, cos I just tried checking in English and month came up 20 times but it included month, months and monthly and month's...
just wonderin
Peace :)
Peace Progressive1993, everyone,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 26, 2009, 11:04:09 AMAlso, another question for ayman:
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2:185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqan
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting
in the scorching full moon or
in a bright sun or
in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 26, 2009, 11:04:09 AMAnd how about fasting in a moon... is that part of your wishful thinking as well?
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
Please read the original Arabic of 2:185. There is no "therein" (Arabic "fihi"). There is the Arabic third person masculine pronoun "hu" which consistently with the preceding "hu" refers back to "the abstinence":
2:183. O you who believe, the abstinence has been decreed for you like it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
2:184. A few days and if any of you is ill or traveling, then a count of different days; and as for those who tolerate it (with difficulty), they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you abstain it is better for you if you knew.
2:185. A scorching full-moon, is when the great reading was descended; as a guide to the people and a clarification from the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever from you witnessed the full-moon, then he shall abstain it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then a count of different days. The god wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and complete the count, and glorify the god for what he has guided you, that you may be thankful.It is normal in the Arabic of the great reading that pronouns can refer to something which was mentioned in a prior verse. For example, (and Rex/Pseudo/Eid/Nun/whatever knows this very well), the pronoun "hiya" at the end of 74:31 refers to "saqar" all the way back in 74:26.
On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month". Even you inadvertently slipped here http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg216654#msg216654 and said "witnessed the moon" because deep inside you know that whether you like it or not "whoever witnessed the month shall fast it" is pure nonsense.
Hopefully, this now has clarified the issue for everyone, including all reincarnations of Rex. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 26, 2009, 05:11:58 PM
Peace AW,
It does depend on when year 0 month 1 was made to start. It also depends on the order of the months. For example, had the first month been in the new calendar been the prior new moon crescent then your so-called Ramadhan would be one month earlier. Also, had the arbitrary order of the months been such that Ramadhan is the 10th month then you would be fasting one month later. This is indisputable truth.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Well we know that the islam calender started when prophet made hijira in 622 ad. And what are we talkin about anyway, the islamic calender or lunar calender? And lets stick to the facts. You keep saying "had this happened" and "had that happened" ect..., but these things didnt happen. So what now? To my knowleadge we are not fasting one month earlier. And we are fasting now. :peace:
Quote from: ayman on August 26, 2009, 06:52:09 PM
Peace Progressive1993, everyone,
.....
It is normal in the Arabic of the great reading that pronouns can refer to something which was mentioned in a prior verse. For example, (and Rex/Pseudo/Eid/Nun/whatever knows this very well), the pronoun "hiya" at the end of 74:31 refers to "saqar" all the way back in 74:26.
On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month". Even you inadvertently slipped here http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg216654#msg216654 and said "witnessed the moon" because deep inside you know that whether you like it or not "whoever witnessed the month shall fast it" is pure nonsense.
Hopefully, this now has clarified the issue for everyone, including all reincarnations of Rex. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman .
As I am included in ?everyone? I would say no you are confusing yourself and others by promoting these absurd explanations. The classic Arabic dictionary meaning of the word "shahr? month is-?complete moon? =full month- a total of two crescents.
What you are calling ?full moon? is an English phrase in other words half moon
All over the world, including in England, the expression ?full moon? is NOT the end product or the Originator.
Nowhere in the world is one half of the moon taken as a complete moon/? shahr" / full moon cycle of the month. So when you ?witnessed" the crescent you fast in that month (the word originating from moon)Month Etymology: Since Urdu is nearest to Arabic culturally so let me start with Urdu "Mahina", also called "Mah" and moon too is called "Mah":yes (Mahjabeen) in Swedish, the word for month is: M?nad (from M?ne=moon) in Icelandic: M?nu? (from M?ni=moon) and, as pointed out in my earlier post, in Middle English < Old English mōna? < Proto-Germanic *mēnō?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include: Ancient Greek: μήν (mḗn), Armenian: ամիս (amis), German: Monat, Old High German: mānōd, Middle High German: mānōt, Old Irish: m?, and Old Slavic:(měsęncĭ). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/month
Btw. :bravo: it was very cleaver of Nun, Pseudo, EId, or Rex to contribute in this forum in small doses. That way his ID here does not say ?Wise One/ Burnout?; I am dreading that stage :brickwall:.
Finally to the moderators: For an investigation into ?the rational and the non-rational,? posts, is it possible to sort all the post from each contributor in such a way that we can see clearly who has contributed genuinely and who has just pasted previous replies again and again making this thread too protracted
:peace:
Peace AW,
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 27, 2009, 10:28:58 AMWell we know that the islam calender started when prophet made hijira in 622 ad. And what are we talkin about anyway, the islamic calender or lunar calender? And lets stick to the facts. You keep saying "had this happened" and "had that happened" ect..., but these things didnt happen. So what now? To my knowleadge we are not fasting one month earlier. And we are fasting now. :peace:
You are wrong, the start of the new era has nothing to do with the migration of the prophet. The era started on Muharam 1 year 0 but traditionalists say that the prophet's migration was 66 days later on 8 Rabi' Al-Awal. Even if Muharam 1 was the actual date of the migration, which is nothing but speculation anyway, then why choose this particular date? This is certainly nothing that is authorized by the god through the great reading. Some guy named Umar arbitrarily decided to choose this year and a certain month in it to start the calendar and it has nothing to do with hijra, the great reading or anything. Same goes for the arbitrary order of the months. So the sectarian Ramadan is 100% arbitrary.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 26, 2009, 06:52:09 PM
Peace Progressive1993, everyone,
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
Oooohhh.. so now you're twisting the words more and more to fit your your interpretation.. I see...
Anyways, have a nice month of Ramadan (shahr Ramadan).
Peace
Quote from: ayman on August 27, 2009, 12:04:39 PM
Peace AW,
You are wrong, the start of the new era has nothing to do with the migration of the prophet. The era started on Muharam 1 year 0 but traditionalists say that the prophet's migration was 66 days later on 8 Rabi' Al-Awal. Even if Muharam 1 was the actual date of the migration, which is nothing but speculation anyway, then why choose this particular date? This is certainly nothing that is authorized by the god through the great reading. Some guy named Umar arbitrarily decided to choose this year and a certain month in it to start the calendar and it has nothing to do with hijra, the great reading or anything. Same goes for the arbitrary order of the months. .
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman .
I am not talking about the Islamic year; I am talking about the month/moon Ramadan which is lunar and started before the Islamic calendar.
QuoteSo the sectarian Ramadan is 100% arbitrary
NO Ramadan is NOT arbitrary; it?s been in cycle from the day it was mentioned to us in the Qur?an and as you can see from my ?Blue Lagoon? scenario the ?Sunni? guy was able to maintain the cycle even if, in his calendar, it was the 12th month.
I would really appreciate if you would stop repeating yourself.
Many Thanks
:peace:
Ps: Sorry as this reply came just after my post so I thought it was in response to my post anyway I am sure AW won't mind me replying.
So I am still looking forward to your non repetitive reply
Salaam
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 12:06:42 PM
Oooohhh.. so now you're twisting the words more and more to fit your your interpretation.. I see...
You talk about twisting...
'minkum' means therein?
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 12:06:42 PMOooohhh.. so now you're twisting the words more and more to fit your your interpretation.. I see...
Anyways, have a nice month of Ramadan (shahr Ramadan).
In other words, you have nothing of value to say to address in a specific and logical way the points that I raised so instead you fall back on your typical useless rhetoric.
Happy random arbitrary month to you too. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: TheJoker on August 27, 2009, 12:14:29 PM
You talk about twisting...
'minkum' means therein?
Just to recap in case you didnt read carefully:
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 26, 2009, 11:04:09 AM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
So.. you tell me what it means if not "therein".
Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 04:04:09 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse :
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"
i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 12:44:57 PM
Just to recap in case you didnt read carefully:
So.. you tell me what it means if not "therein".
I
did read what you said 'carefully'. I'm just saying that you accuse Ayman of wishful thinking... aren't you doing the same with taking 'therein'. You can't have it both ways. Anyways, let's
please move on...
min= from
kum = you in plural form
Fihi is therein
Quote from: quickduck on August 27, 2009, 01:46:07 PM
Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 04:04:09 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse :
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"
i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
Well said.
Quote from: quickduck on August 27, 2009, 01:46:07 PM
Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 04:04:09 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse :
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"
i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
I see.. Thanks for the clarification. :handshake:
so 'falyasumhu' is literally "fast it"? Tree translations that I looked at have "fast therein" in them. Another one says "fast throughout it". Oh well..
The translation I was reading was probably not literal enough.
:peace:
Quote from: TheJoker on August 27, 2009, 02:05:51 PM
I did read what you said 'carefully'. I'm just saying that you accuse Ayman of wishful thinking... aren't you doing the same with taking 'therein'. You can't have it both ways. Anyways, let's please move on...
min= from
kum = you in plural form
Fihi is therein
Well said.
I failed in the translation of a sentence; ayman comes up with the nonsense of the Quran being revealed IN the MOON of Ramadan and then comes up with nonsense to justify his interpretation... I guess they are the same...
Here is the nonsense again:
Quote from: ayman on August 26, 2009, 06:52:09 PM
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
That's why I said that he is twisting stuff around.
Anyways, ayman, just a question:
what sounds more logical to you:
1. The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or
2. The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
Quote from: TheJokerLets please move on
To what? We're discussing a relevant issue
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 12:12:51 PMI am not talking about the Islamic year; I am talking about the month/moon Ramadan which is lunar and started before the Islamic calendar.
You are speaking out of ignorance. Even Sunni scholars readily admit that there was no pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. You have zero evidence of your claims. The term "shahr" is never used in any pre-Islamic inscription to mean "month". The word that was used in inscriptions to mean month is "warkh" or "yarkh". The great reading talks about "the scorching full-moon". There is zero evidence that Ramadan is a meaningless word as you would love it to be.
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 12:12:51 PMNO Ramadan is NOT arbitrary; it?s been in cycle from the day it was mentioned to us in the Qur?an
But what is mentioned in the great reading is a meaningful word. What you and other sectarians did is you took a meaningful word and then made it meaningless and named with it an arbitrary random month.
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 12:12:51 PMand as you can see from my ?Blue Lagoon? scenario the ?Sunni? guy was able to maintain the cycle even if, in his calendar, it was the 12th month.
The Sunnis is as lost as you. If he loses track of time because he was stuck in the hull of the ship or he loses consciousness he would be completely lost. Like you, he is 100% dependent on the info from other Sunnis. It has nothing to do with the great reading.
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 12:12:51 PMI would really appreciate if you would stop repeating yourself.
Then be a decent person and honestly admit to the indisputable fact that your Ramadan is not based on the great reading and is based on following other sectarians, no matter what you call it (e.g., following the prophet, following Sahaba, or any other junk you imagine).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 02:25:59 PMwhat sounds more logical to you:
1. The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or
2. The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one soundsmore logical to you language-wise?
Please quote where I said that "The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT". If you can't then you are either a liar or have a learning disability that prevents you from reading properly or both.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 27, 2009, 03:00:51 PM
Peace Progressive1993,
Please quote where I said that "The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT". If you can't then you are either a liar or have a learning disability that prevents you from reading properly or both.
Peace,
Ayman
There is no more escaping with your childish comments above.
I said:
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 05:04:09 PM
Also, another question for ayman:
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2:185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanThen you said:
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface! There you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
Peace,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 06:00:57 PM
10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?
Ayman?s response: ?Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 17:12, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.?
This is a pathetic response. Ayman has no idea (Zero knowledge) about the phases of moon or the definition of celestial phases. The sad part is he cannot be taught because the God has sealed his heart and mind. Therefore, he will reject the truth and God?s sign. For this, he will be humiliated in this world and far worst waits for him in the hereafter.
The God talks about phases of the moon in the following two verses:
2:189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
84:18 - And the moon and its phases.
The natural question then: what is the definition of phases?
From science and through observation we know that the moon orbits around the Earth. An observer on the Earth sees the starting phase of moon (new moon) when the moon is in-between the Earth and the sun. Then we see the half moon, full moon, half moon again and finally back to the starting phase.
The moon has phases because it orbits around the Earth and it is not a source of radiation. These are the conditions that must be satisfied to have phases (definition). Does sun satisfy these conditions, Ayman?
Ayman violates this definition when he says sun has phases. This is absurd. The sun doesn?t go around the Earth. The Earth goes around the sun.
Ayman should first define what phases or stages is? And then show it works for moon phases and the so called sun phases.
Another point to note is that there is no mention of ?sun and its phases? in the Quran. This is Ayman imagination.
The phases in 10:5 clearly belong to the moon. This is the straightforward and easy understanding of the verse.
Quote from: guest on August 27, 2009, 03:29:34 PM
Peace,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 06:00:57 PM
10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?
Ayman?s response: ?Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 17:12, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.?
This is a pathetic response. Ayman has no idea (Zero knowledge) about the phases of moon or the definition of celestial phases. The sad part is he cannot be taught because the God has sealed his heart and mind. Therefore, he will reject the truth and God?s sign. For this, he will be humiliated in this world and far worst waits for him in the hereafter.
The God talks about phases of the moon in the following two verses:
2:189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
84:18 - And the moon and its phases.
The natural question then: what is the definition of phases?
From science and through observation we know that the moon orbits around the Earth. An observer on the Earth sees the starting phase of moon (new moon) when the moon is in-between the Earth and the sun. Then we see the half moon, full moon, half moon again and finally back to the starting phase.
The moon has phases because it orbits around the Earth and it is not a source of radiation. These are the conditions that must be satisfied to have phases (definition). Does sun satisfy these conditions, Ayman?
Ayman violates this definition when he says sun has phases. This is absurd. The sun doesn?t go around the Earth. The Earth goes around the sun.
Ayman should first define what phases or stages is? And then show it works for moon phases and the so called sun phases.
Another point to note is that there is no mention of ?sun and its phases? in the Quran. This is Ayman imagination.
The phases in 10:5 clearly belong to the moon. This is the straightforward and easy understanding of the verse.
:bravo:
At least someone understands.
Welcome back guest,
Ayman never said that the sun has phases. if he did, please quote.
Sorry, but i'll have to say it again : the waiter in the restaurant gives you a knife AND a "4 spears Fork" for you can cut AND pick the meat. If you understand from this example that the knife also has 4 spears, it's your problem not Ayman's .
Salam
Peace Pro(a)gressive,
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 03:40:42 PM
:bravo:
At least someone understands.
So you also understood that the knife has 4 spears .?? !!!!! :sun: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Quote from: quickduck on August 27, 2009, 03:42:37 PM
Peace Pro(a)gressive,
You need a new joke. Did nobody ever tell you that jokes are not funny anymore once they are overused?
Quote from: quickduck on August 27, 2009, 03:42:37 PM
So you also understood that the knife has 4 spears .?? !!!!! :sun: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Please show me the phases of the sun and how they help us calculate the months.
Your example isnt really similar to what is in the Quran/your example is not relevant.
BTW, since when do knives have 'spears'?
Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
@ ayman:
do you still think that "the Quran was revealed in the moon of Ramadan" (if that is what you think)?
Also, doesnt 'qamar' = moon?
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 03:40:42 PM
:bravo:
At least someone understands.
Everyone understans and Alhumdulilah we are now moving into the 2nd quarter of the moon of Ramadan but Ayman still sticks to his rhetoric despite all the credible replies.
Quote from: ayman on August 27, 2009, 02:58:23 PM
Peace Farida,
You are speaking out of ignorance. Even Sunni scholars readily admit that there was no pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. You have zero evidence of your claims. The term "shahr" is never used in any pre-Islamic inscription to mean "month". The word that was used in inscriptions to mean month is "warkh" or "yarkh". The great reading talks about "the scorching full-moon". There is zero evidence that Ramadan is a meaningless word as you would love it to be.
But what is mentioned in the great reading is a meaningful word. What you and other sectarians did is you took a meaningful word and then made it meaningless and named with it an arbitrary random month.
The Sunnis is as lost as you. If he loses track of time because he was stuck in the hull of the ship or he loses consciousness he would be completely lost. Like you, he is 100% dependent on the info from other Sunnis. It has nothing to do with the great reading.
Then be a decent person and honestly admit to the indisputable fact that your Ramadan is not based on the great reading and is based on following other sectarians, no matter what you call it (e.g., following the prophet, following Sahaba, or any other junk you imagine).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
How arrogant you consider everyone ignorant except yourself and your cronies who seem to pop up out of nowhere to defend you every Ramadan and ::) strangely they sound so much like you though they claim not to be speaking English well.
Now, coming to your post, please give evidence for your source. Enough of speculations from you. I see that you have completely ignored my earlier post of today Reply #1213 on: Today at 04:29:25 PM ?. Why? Is it too difficult for you to understand or you are just in the habit of
repeating yourself playing on the psychology that oft repeated lies become the truth.I see how much you hope to break the chain that somehow the followers of the messenger should lose track of time or their consciousness so that you could take over and enforce your false claim, but sadly for you this will
NEVER happen. :nope:
17: 81.
And say: "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!" :peace:
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 04:08:46 PM
You need a new joke. Did nobody ever tell you that jokes are not funny anymore once they are overused?
Please show me the phases of the sun and how they help us calculate the months.
Your example isnt really similar to what is in the Quran/your example is not relevant.
BTW, since when do knives have 'spears'?*
Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
as long as you you keep asking about knives' spears and sun phases, you are right : discussing with you leads to nowhere.
P.S : i don't know any one of you personally. Neither you nor Br. Ayman, let alone Sister Farida. But i know exactly the sectarian traditions because my country (morocco) is known to be following the maliki sect, (Imam Malik is a sunni Celebrity) Although the Moroccan king proclaims himself as descendant of the prophet and claims to belong to the "ahl albayt" (wich is a pure chiiat concept). This stupid contradiction (you cannot be sunni and chiia at the same time) lead me to ask questions. And in order to answer these questions, you need to "free your mind" and overview the situation from outside. Before i started posting in this forum, i read almost every thread and every post, and believe me , i haven't any reason to be with you or with brother Ayman since the only achievement is to have the truth revealed. But since you appear, through your posts, that you haven't been able yet to strip off the Traditional cloths that you wear, and since Br. Ayman's posts don't present any lack of logic and all are quranically based, so... i already choose my side. This doesn't mean that i follow him blindly, nor that i reject you automatically, but...sorry...i cannot afford to listen to any absurdities anymore unless they are proven to be not.
Quote from: quickduck on August 27, 2009, 05:22:10 PM
Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
as long as you you keep asking about knives' spears and sun phases, you are right : discussing with you leads to nowhere.
P.S : i don't know any one of you personally. Neither you nor Br. Ayman, let alone Sister Farida. But i know exactly the sectarian traditions because my country (morocco) is known to be following the maliki sect, (Imam Malik is a sunni Celebrity) Although the Moroccan king proclaims himself as descendant of the prophet and claims to belong to the "ahl albayt" (wich is a pure chiiat concept). This stupid contradiction (you cannot be sunni and chiia at the same time) lead me to ask questions. And in order to answer these questions, you need to "free your mind" and overview the situation from outside. Before i started posting in this forum, i read almost every thread and every post, and believe me , i haven't any reason to be with you or with brother Ayman since the only achievement is to have the truth revealed. But since you appear, through your posts, that you haven't been able yet to strip off the Traditional cloths that you wear, and since Br. Ayman's posts don't present any lack of logic and all are quranically based, so... i already choose my side. This doesn't mean that i follow him blindly, nor that i reject you automatically, but...sorry...i cannot afford to listen to any absurdities anymore unless they are proven to be not.
I understand..but sometimes 'going blindly against tradition' isnt the best thing. I take info from the Quran and I have no problem to follow it, even if it coincides with what the Sunnis believe/are doing.
@ ayman
I am looking forward to your response(s)
I'm out for today.
Peace
Peace progressive :))
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 02:13:19 PM
I see.. Thanks for the clarification. :handshake:
so 'falyasumhu' is literally "fast it"? Tree translations that I looked at have "fast therein" in them. Another one says "fast throughout it". Oh well..
The translation I was reading was probably not literal enough.
:peace:
yes , "fa-li-yasum-hu" means literally "so-should-fast-it" .
The three translations you looked at are exactly a pure example of sectarians and traditionalist trying to distort and twist the quranic meaning...It is because the translators knew that the sectarians were fasting the hole "month" of ramadan, that's why they were biased in their translation..(maybe they did it with very good intentions, maybe not..) but their point was to "fit with the practice".
I think you, non-arabic speakers, should not lean on post-quranic translaters, and start to look for the real meaning of the arabic "key" words, their root and their multiple use and then choose the one that "fits the god's statement, rather than "fit" with the general practice.
salam all
peace Sister farida,
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 05:19:56 PM
Peace Ayman
How arrogant you consider everyone ignorant except yourself and your cronies who seem to pop up out of nowhere to defend you every Ramadan and ::) strangely they sound so much like you though they claim not to be speaking English well.
As you can easily verify, i registred in this forum more than 3 years ago, and i only started posting 4 days ago...also my ip adress can make you sure that i am from morocco, so i am not a reincarnation of anyone else..
And yes, i still claim that i am not an english expert, and my english level is far below my french or my arabic. I do many efforts (dictionnary help, google, translation tools) to write posts with the minimum of mistakes.
I think you should show me more respect, and give me more credits instead of acting like any "brilliant sunni scholar" , with your method of always using verses from the great reading to "curse" and scare the "infidels" .
Salam all
Quote from: quickduck on August 27, 2009, 05:49:09 PM
peace Sister farida,
As you can easily verify, i registred in this forum more than 3 years ago, and i only started posting 4 days ago...also my ip adress can make you sure that i am from morocco, so i am not a reincarnation of anyone else..
And yes, i still claim that i am not an english expert, and my english level is far below my french or my arabic. I do many efforts (dictionnary help, google, translation tools) to write posts with the minimum of mistakes.
I think you should show me more respect, and give me more credits instead of acting like any "brilliant sunni scholar" , with your method of always using verses from the great reading to "curse" and scare the "infidels" .
Salam all
Salaam
First of all I am not your sister, secondly one earns respect and you haven?t earned that from me. If quoting from the Quran makes me appear like a "brilliant sunni scholar" then I am sorry for you. However if your feel cursed or scared then maybe it?s time to seek forgiveness and guidance from Allah(swt).
:peace:
Btw I don?t care when you registered and why you stayed ducked for all this time; Not bothered
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 06:41:05 PM
Salaam
First of all I am not your sister, secondly one earns respect and you haven?t earned that from me. If quoting from the Quran makes me appear like a "brilliant sunni scholar" then I am sorry for you. However if your feel cursed or scared then maybe it?s time to seek forgiveness and guidance from Allah(swt).
:peace:
Btw I don?t care when you registered and why you stayed ducked for all this time; Not bothered
:wow sister farida.
quick duck
Your patience, composure, and most of all, sharp balanced head, is a pleasant addition to this forum.
siki
I may know the reason why some are aggressive in the Ramadan thread.
Because they are fasting Ramadan NOW so they tend to be harsh with people who reject 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan'.
Normal human reaction.
No need to worry.
Peace,
Quote from Ayman: ?On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month".?
This is the guy who produced the most contradictory article in the world. And here he is giving lecture on ?insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility?. The winner of the mother-of-all-contradiction article.
You have witnessed the month if you are in it a moment after its start i.e. right after the sunset of first day of the month. So what is the fuss about ?witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it?. What kind of nonsense logic is this, what an absurd understanding? No wonder he produced what he produced.
Quote from: guest on August 28, 2009, 10:52:26 AM
Peace,
Quote from Ayman: ?On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month".?
This is the guy who produced the most contradictory article in the world. And here he is giving lecture on ?insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility?. The winner of the mother-of-all-contradiction article.
You have witnessed the month if you are in it a moment after its start i.e. right after the sunset of first day of the month. So what is the fuss about ?witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it?. What kind of nonsense logic is this, what an absurd understanding? No wonder he produced what he produced.
Indeed, and he even tries to justify his nonsense with more nonsense.
Ayman, I'm still waiting for your response.
Have a great Ramadan, everyone! :peace:
Peace progessive
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 28, 2009, 11:39:05 AM
Indeed, and he even tries to justify his nonsense with more nonsense.
Ayman, I'm still waiting for your response.
If you really read the 100 and more Ayman's answers althrough this thread, and then put his 9 or more arguments together in front of your eyes , then you'll notice that there's no need to ask for other answers.
if you disagree with him when he says :
?On the other hand, taking "shahr" to mean "month" creates an insurmountable logical absurdity and physical impossibility since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it. This false understanding of "shahr" as "month" of course reduces the passage to complete nonsense and hence even the staunchest Sunnis and defenders of "shahr" as "month" are forced to admit that 2:185 must be talking about witnessing an event (they claim is the New Moon crescent) and not a "month".? , then recap this with te other statements so the picture would be clearer to your eyes.
Zoomin' in too close to a jigsaw puzzle does not help see the picture as clear as if you zoom out (look from above )...
For me, Ayman has already answered enough, and i am responsible for what i believe . So unless someone gives me ( or find it my self) a really logical theory that refute Aymans' summer solstice, i'll go on facing the retribution verses that farida always kindly remind me..
Salam
Quote from: ayman on August 27, 2009, 12:04:39 PM
Peace AW,
You are wrong, the start of the new era has nothing to do with the migration of the prophet. The era started on Muharam 1 year 0 but traditionalists say that the prophet's migration was 66 days later on 8 Rabi' Al-Awal. Even if Muharam 1 was the actual date of the migration, which is nothing but speculation anyway, then why choose this particular date? This is certainly nothing that is authorized by the god through the great reading. Some guy named Umar arbitrarily decided to choose this year and a certain month in it to start the calendar and it has nothing to do with hijra, the great reading or anything. Same goes for the arbitrary order of the months. So the sectarian Ramadan is 100% arbitrary.
Peace,
Ayman
peace,
Nobody said Muharram 1 was the actual date of migration. And it dont have to be either just because it is the 1st month/moon. Umar choose year 622ad cause it was the year the prophet migrated and i dont know what actual month ( or moon) and day the calender started ,only the year. Umar could have decided to start the calender in 1 muharram, 622ad, even thoe the prophet didnt migrate untill the 3rd moon of the year as they say. I dont see whats the big deal. And just because muhammad migrated in month( moon) rabi al awal, dont mean rabi alawal has to be called month 1 ( or moon 1); because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st. The months would be arbitary if rabi al awal was made to be month 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right. And there is no such thing as a " sectarian ramadan" unless some muslims start following you or using a solar calender instead of lunar.
All I know is that the years of the islamic calender are counted from the beginning of the hijra, sometime in the year 622ad. Therefore, the year 2000, for example, on the gregorian calender corrisponded to the year 1421 on the Islamic calender. The calender could have started on 8/ month ( full moon) rabi al awal/ year 622ad to my understanding. The only thing authorized by God is using the moon to keep track of the years and count. I assum umar decided to start the calender on day 8, moon rabi al awal, year 622ad. But thats my assumtion as of now. And either we or you are guided or clearly astray.
What does the start of the islamic calender have to do with?
Peace AW,
Can you understand that calendars are manmade and "arbitrary" since they depend on which day/month/year they were started ?
This also is valid for all calendars including hebrew, gregorian AND islamic one, and no matter if this calendar is lunar or solar based .
Moreover, the order of months, as in my understanding, was never been always the same. A few re-arrangements were practiced from time to time. please (re-)check http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf for better understanding.
Salam all
A night of full moon, a night full of light, the night in which quran was revealed, quran is noor "light" in the darkness of ignorance. What is laylatul qadr? :elektro:
Quote from: quickduck on August 28, 2009, 02:55:03 PM
Peace AW,
Can you understand that calendars are manmade and "arbitrary" since they depend on which day/month/year they were started ?
This also is valid for all calendars including hebrew, gregorian AND islamic one, and no matter if this calendar is lunar or solar based .
Moreover, the order of months, as in my understanding, was never been always the same. A few re-arrangements were practiced from time to time. please (re-)check http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf for better understanding.
Salam all
Oh, so what do you suggest? :peace:
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 29, 2009, 10:24:37 AM
Oh, so what do you suggest? :peace:
Salaam
Let me tell you Anthony Wallace what quickduck suggests: that if you use the quotes from the Qur?an then you are acting like a ?grown beard imam?. So We should look cool and use the word submitter instead of Muslim and use the word ?great reading? instead of Quran and learn from the
pdf file research of Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf. 8)
This research is purely hadith driven, yet he considers it acceptable for a better understanding of how a few re-arrangements were practiced from time to time[/b]
:peace:
Quote from: Rami on August 28, 2009, 01:08:53 AM
I may know the reason why some are aggressive in the Ramadan thread.
Because they are fasting Ramadan NOW so they tend to be harsh with people who reject 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan'.
Normal human reaction.
No need to worry.
Peace Rami,
Could I ask on what authority do you say that my month of fasting is 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan', please state that source or apologise for you baseless accusations.
If you have become knowledgeable from PDF file research of The Islamic Jewish Calendar How the Pilgrimage of the 9th of Av became the Hajj of the 9th of Dhu'al-Hijjah. By Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz Then you are talking rubbish based on hadiths, check it your self from these excerpts below:
There are no such differences of opinion with regard to the date of the Hijra as there are with
regard to the time when the call first came to Muhammad and with regard to the day and
year of his birth.......
They know that birth of the prophet was not known yet they puts doubts into minds by their own suggestion]...during the time of'Umar ibn al-Khattab and it became necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates. TheCaliph, who was so well aware of the sunna of the Prophet and of his temperament,
instead of fixing the standard from the birth of the Prophet, which heralded an entirely new chapter in the history of man or his death which had placed such a heavy responsibility upon the
shoulders of the Caliphs or some other event, he ordered the adoption of the Hijra as the
basic date for the Islamic calendar..
And then on basis of this hadith: Shams al-Din Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawi (d. 902) in his al-I'lan bi'l-Tawbikh
li-man dhamma ahl al-tawrikh gives the following details about the origin of the Islamic
calendar: "A report on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas states that there existed no era in Medina
when the Prophet arrived there. People came to use an era a month or two after his arrival.
This continued until Muhammad's death. Then, the use of an era was discontinued, and there
was none during the caliphate of Abu Bakr and the first four years of the caliphate of 'Umar.
Then, the (Muslim) era was established.? Umar is reported to have said to the assembled
dignitaries among the men around Muhammad: "The income is considerable. What we have
distributed has been without fixed dates. How can we remedy that?" One answer came from
al-Hurmuzan. He had been king of alAhwaz. After his capture during the conquest of Persia,
he had been brought to 'Umar and had become a Muslim. He said: "The Persians have a
(method of) calculation which they call mahroz and which they ascribe to their Sassanid
rulers. The word mahroz was arabicized as mu'arrakh, and the infinitive ta'rikh was formed
from it.
'Umar chose the strictly lunar calendar as the official calendar, and no intercalation
And the authors conclude based on their twisted understanding and source: Although the Islamic Calendar has undergone two distinct changes (discontinued intercalation
and frozen commutation), is still possible to align the Islamic Calendar to its Jewish
counterpart
Yes I am fasting and that is not what makes me angry but unfounded accusations so I would appreciate if you produce your proof or else apologise.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 01:50:06 PM
Peace Rami,
Could I ask on what authority do you say that my month of fasting is 'Umar's arbitrary Ramadan', please state that source or apologise for you baseless accusations.
If you have become knowledgeable from PDF file research of The Islamic Jewish Calendar How the Pilgrimage of the 9th of Av became the Hajj of the 9th of Dhu'al-Hijjah. By Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz Then you are talking rubbish based on hadiths, check it your self from these excerpts below:
There are no such differences of opinion with regard to the date of the Hijra as there are with
regard to the time when the call first came to Muhammad and with regard to the day and
year of his birth....... They know that birth of the prophet was not known yet they puts doubts into minds by their own suggestion]...during the time of'Umar ibn al-Khattab and it became necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates. TheCaliph, who was so well aware of the sunna of the Prophet and of his temperament, instead of fixing the standard from the birth of the Prophet, which heralded an entirely new chapter in the history of man or his death which had placed such a heavy responsibility upon the
shoulders of the Caliphs or some other event, he ordered the adoption of the Hijra as the
basic date for the Islamic calendar..
And then on basis of this hadith:
Shams al-Din Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawi (d. 902) in his al-I'lan bi'l-Tawbikh
li-man dhamma ahl al-tawrikh gives the following details about the origin of the Islamic
calendar: "A report on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas states that there existed no era in Medina
when the Prophet arrived there. People came to use an era a month or two after his arrival.
This continued until Muhammad's death. Then, the use of an era was discontinued, and there
was none during the caliphate of Abu Bakr and the first four years of the caliphate of 'Umar.
Then, the (Muslim) era was established.” Umar is reported to have said to the assembled
dignitaries among the men around Muhammad: "The income is considerable. What we have
distributed has been without fixed dates. How can we remedy that?" One answer came from
al-Hurmuzan. He had been king of alAhwaz. After his capture during the conquest of Persia,
he had been brought to 'Umar and had become a Muslim. He said: "The Persians have a
(method of) calculation which they call mahroz and which they ascribe to their Sassanid
rulers. The word mahroz was arabicized as mu'arrakh, and the infinitive ta'rikh was formed
from it.
'Umar chose the strictly lunar calendar as the official calendar, and no intercalation
And the authors conclude based on their twisted understanding and source: Although the Islamic Calendar has undergone two distinct changes (discontinued intercalation
and frozen commutation), is still possible to align the Islamic Calendar to its Jewish
counterpart
Yes I am fasting but that is not what makes me angry but unfounded accusations so I would appreciate if you produce your proof or else apologise.
:peace:
I didn't read this article.
Your Ramadan is arbitrary! Your Ramdan is almost always a misnomer.
Have you wondered why the they call it Ramadan?
There is a reason and this reason doesn't go through the seasons.
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 12:03:30 PM
Salaam
Let me tell you Anthony Wallace what quickduck suggests: that if you use the quotes from the Qur?an then you are acting like a ?grown beard imam?. .....
Only if you use them OFF topic. Everyone (including me ) can/must use quotes from the quran, but only in order to prove/disaprove a theory/understanding, Not for cursing and putting spells on people because they're discussing an issue with you. (read the forum rules).
Can anyone Tell me, who in this forum uses this kind of sentences in almost all of their posts :
- Redeem or you will face an enorm Retribution
- Forget what you are thinking about, or you will end down in hell.
- God will curse you if you don't follow Farida's brilliant understandings.
Quote from: farida on August 25, 2009, 05:04:46 PM
33:66: On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, we wish we had obeyed God, and obeyed the messenger
33:67- And they will say: "Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path."
33:68- Our Lord, give them double the retribution, and curse them with a mighty curse
33:69-O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.
33:70-O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth
33:71- He will then direct your works, and forgive your sins. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger has triumphed a great triumph
33:72 -We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant
33:73- So that God may punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, and the men who set up partners and the women who set up partners. And God redeems the believing men and the believing women. And God is Forgiver, Merciful
17: 81. And say: "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish''
.
If anyone sees that those verses are not OFF TOPIC, please tell me...
As long as you keep going this way , you'll always appear like a "grown beard imam" to me. Unless you are very sure about who/what God adresses in the underlined words above.
@Anthony wallace :
what i suggest is what i already said in another post :
1 - manmade inventions are not prohibited as long as they don't contradict the quranic teachings.
2 - calendars ( including sundials and vertical tall objects :ignore:) are as useful as cars, watchs and computers in our daily life. but when it comes to religious matters (salat, fasting, hajj...) we should use the informations given in the quran. (you see farida, i can also use the word "quran" as well as "the great reading").
3- God guides whoever he wills, and leads astray whoever he wills. euuuuh...sorry, this is :offtopic:
Salam
Peace,
Quote from Ayman: ?Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 17:12:?
Another quote from Ayman: ?Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.?
Please note the use of the word ?absolutely?. This is a very strong word to be used for manmade theory. He is implying that there is no doubt in his Ramadan theory and that his interpretation of verses is infallible.
Now lets examine Ayman?s solar year i.e. interval between summer solstice. This interval must line up with the solar year cycle of 365.2xx days. Remember his assertion that year is solar. A responsible author would have done the work depicted herein to validate the theory prior to releasing it in public domain. On the other hand an irresponsible and crooked minded author would hide the error in his theory and when other exposes the errors he rejects them without proper rationale.
Also, please note that Ayman?s smallest time unit is night and day. This is evident in his second quote above. The point is he cannot handle fraction of a day.
We are looking for Ayman?s time interval (year) to sync up with the solar cycle of 365.2xx. Now lets begin the analysis:
Data of full moons after summer solstice from 2000-2019:
YEAR MONTH TIME (GMT)JULIAN DAY #OF DAYS
2000 July 16 13:57 2451742.081
354.048
2001 July 5 15:06 2452096.129
354.277
2002 June 24 21:45 2452450.406
383.902
2003 July 13 19:23 2452834.308
354.657
2004 July 2 11:10 2453188.965
354.712
2005 June 22 04:15 2453543.677
383.95
2006 July 11 03:03 2453927.627
354.449
2007 June 30 13:50 2454282.076
383.95
2008 July 18 08:00 2454665.883
354.058
2009 July 7 09:23 2455019.891
354.09
2010 June 26 11:32 2455373.981
383.797
2011 July 15 06:41 2455757.778
354.51
2012 July 3 18:54 2456112.288
354.696
2013 June 23 11:34 2456466.982
383.994
2014 July 12 11:26 2456850.976
354.622
2015 July 2 02:21 2457205.598
383.86
2016 July 19 22:59 2457589.458
354.215
2017 July 9 04:09 2457943.673
354.032
2018 June 28 04:55 2458297.705
383.698
2019 July 16 21:40 2458681.403
I have subtracted the Julian days (2nd moon-1st moon) to get the interval between the summer solstice.
Finding 1: None of the solstice interval matches the solar cycle of 365.2xx ? Contradiction
Finding 2: Ayman?s system cannot resolve the fraction within the interval ? contradiction
Finding 3: A 8 year cycle can be seen in the above table but the total number of days within the 8 year cycle is not a multiple of solar cycle. The first 8 year cycle gives 2923.945 days which is not equal to 8*365.24 = 2921.92 days ? Contradiction.
Now let?s see what happens when we don?t count the 13 moon. This is crazy but we will go through the exercise. An absurd theory requires such a fake adjustment.
Eliminating the 13 moon changes the 383.xxx days to the following (top to bottom):
383.902 goes to 354.565
383.95 goes to 354.576
383.95 goes to 354.155
383.797 goes to 354.363
383.994 goes to 354.694
383.86 goes to 354.363
383.698 goes to 354.151
With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle.
The dilemma is if you keep the 13th moon you come close to satisfying 8 years aggregated solar days (still off by few days). Without the 13th moon you have lunar year.
Therefore, the mother question to the author is where is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar??
Now, will the real author please stand up and answer the question.
More contradiction to follow, God willing.
Quote from: Rami on August 29, 2009, 02:06:10 PM
I didn't read this article.
Peace Rami,
Then what have you got to back up your accusation?
QuoteYour Ramadan is arbitrary! Your Ramdan is almost always a misnomer.
I can also say that you are an imposter but I would have to produce my evidence for it so its no good repeating Ayman?s rhetoric, come up with some thing new or shut up.
QuoteHave you wondered why the they call it Ramadan?
Keep your wondering to yourself I don?t need lesson from you at least .
QuoteThere is a reason and this reason doesn't go through the seasons.
Ha ha ha there we go again and at last we know the real identity of this one who would love to see our month of fasting disintegrate. You really thinks I pay any attention to what you have got to say.
:peace:
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PM
Peace,
With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle.
The dilemma is if you keep the 13th moon you come close to satisfying 8 years aggregated solar days (still off by few days). Without the 13th moon you have lunar year.
Therefore, the mother question to the author is where is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar??
Now, will the real author please stand up and answer the question.
More contradiction to follow, God willing.
Salaam Guest
Thank you for your calculations but do you really expect that A-team would pay any attention to your proofs? No they are promoting a hadith based twisted study in their hope that ignorant would fall for it and they would manage to disintegrate the month of Ramadan. This is only this wishful thinking and would never ever materialise. As long as this world exist some true Muslim would defend this accusation.
:peace:
Peace
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 04:27:41 PM
Salaam Guest
Thank you for your calculations but do you really expect that A-team would pay any attention to your proofs? No they are promoting a hadith based twisted study in their hope that ignorant would fall for it and they would manage to disintegrate the month of Ramadan............ :peace:
does not your "arbitrary month of Ramadan" take its basis from hadiths ?
Why yours would be correct and those hadiths that don't please you would not ??
is this not hyprocrisy ? so what is it ?
listen You should proove :
1- that the pre-islamc arabs knew a month named Ramadan.
2 -that in the pre-islamic era, a Month (or 29.53 days or timeframe Between 2 moons/crescents...or whatever ) was known as "shahr" .
and then, maybe i'll start doubting my beliefs
it will not surprise me if you don't see the big nose in my face .. :giveup:
Salam,
Peace quickduck
Quote from: quickduck on August 29, 2009, 04:58:30 PM
does not your "arbitrary month of Ramadan" take its basis from hadiths ?
Salam,
NO
QuoteWhy yours would be correct and those hadiths that don't please you would not ??
No Pick and chose hadith with me at least.
Quoteis this not hyprocrisy ? ?
Absolutely!
Quotelisten You should proove :
1- that the pre-islamc arabs knew a month named Ramadan.
2 -that in the pre-islamic era, a Month (or 29.53 days or timeframe Between 2 moons/crescents...or whatever ) was known as "shahr" .
and then, maybe i'll start doubting my beliefs
I have no desire to make you change your beliefs as per surah 109
Quoteit will not surprise me if you don't see the big nose in my face .. :giveup:
Irrelevant
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
NO
so where is it from ?
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
No Pick and chose hadith with me at least.
That's not compulsory
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
Absolutely
Yes , you're right
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
I have no desire to make you change your beliefs as per surah 109
You act like tryin' to do the opposite. Moreover , with the wrong way
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
Irrelevant
Sure it is :laugh:
salam
P.S : be polite and start your posts with some salutation.
Peace quickduck
Quote from: quickduck on August 29, 2009, 05:44:50 PM
so where is it from ?
That's not compulsory
Yes , you're right
You act like tryin' to do the opposite. Moreover , with the wrong way
Sure it is :laugh:
salam
:ignore:
QuoteP.S : be polite and start your posts with some salutation.
Point taken and mistake corrected thanks for reminding :peace:
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 05:54:44 PM
Peace quickduck
:ignore:
Point taken and mistake corrected thanks for reminding :peace:
(http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5485/alhamdulillah.jpg)
Peace Farida and
everyone who is having a panic attack as a result of the indisputable fact that their traditional calendar is 100% arbitrary,
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 05:19:56 PMHow arrogant you consider everyone ignorant except yourself and your cronies who seem to pop up out of nowhere to defend you every Ramadan and ::) strangely they sound so much like you though they claim not to be speaking English well.
Me and "my cronies" :) used to be in the same exact place as you. A few years ago I used to believe in the arbitrary sectarian Ramadan that has ZERO basis in the great reading exactly like you do. No matter what the result is, trying to determine the timing purely based on the great reading is better than ignoring the great reading and mindlessly following the chain of tradition. People who try to follow the truth in the great reading will always have the higher moral and logical ground over those who blindly follow arbitrary and false manmade traditions. This might seem like arrogance to you but it is because you have no real faith in your so-called Ramadan and this explains all the anger and inferiority complexes that you demonstrated on this thread. All that you proved is that your house is made of cards and this is why you get so mad when anyone shakes it. :)
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 05:19:56 PMNow, coming to your post, please give evidence for your source. Enough of speculations from you.
There are 84 pages on this thread of evidences and sources. Despite all the noise you are making, you have not provided even one valid or invalid argument. All you have done is be a cheerleader for Guest or Progressive1993 or anyone who comes along repeating the same old stale arguments for the sectarian arbitrary timing that we all know (remember we all have been there and done that). At least those people tried and made an effort even if they were unsuccessful and their own arguments turned against them.
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 05:19:56 PMI see that you have completely ignored my earlier post of today Reply #1213 on: Today at 04:29:25 PM ?. Why? Is it too difficult for you to understand or you are just in the habit of repeating yourself playing on the psychology that oft repeated lies become the truth.
Whether you like it or not, the fact that your Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and is not based on the great reading is true and you can?t prove otherwise. As for lies, there are plenty of examples. For example, those desperately trying to save the traditional timing on this thread have argued using 2:189, which talks about the ?crescents? being used as a timing device for the ?hajj?, but they are lying because their arbitrary timing for ?hajj? completely disregards the crescent and instead your pagan ?hajj? starts on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hija and not with any crescent and ends on the 13th of Dhu Al-Hija and not with any crescent. On the other hand, the timing that I found based on the great reading ends the ?hajj? with the crescent. Remember what I said about your house being a house of cards. I would suggest that you try to solidify your house and make a solid foundation for it before worrying about what others think. Start with something simple like 2:189 that everyone agrees on and try to time your ?hajj? accordingly.
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 05:19:56 PMI see how much you hope to break the chain that somehow the followers of the messenger should lose track of time or their consciousness so that you could take over and enforce your false claim, but sadly for you this will NEVER happen. :nope:
There is no difference between what you are saying and what Hadithists say. You might as well dip some fresh flies in your food and drink some warm Camel urine to cure all your ills. Instead of following the message, you fanaticize that you are following the messenger when you are in fact following your misguided forefathers. Your chain is tied around your neck.
Quote from: farida on August 27, 2009, 05:19:56 PM17: 81. And say: "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"
Indeed. This is why you are so upset.
This is also why many people like me who used to follow the traditional timing have disregarded falsehood and are now following the timing according to the great reading. On the other hand, you have not convinced anyone to go back to following the 100% baseless and arbitrary traditional timing.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace AW,
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 28, 2009, 02:41:18 PMNobody said Muharram 1 was the actual date of migration. And it dont have to be either just because it is the 1st month/moon. Umar choose year 622ad cause it was the year the prophet migrated and i dont know what actual month ( or moon) and day the calender started ,only the year. Umar could have decided to start the calender in 1 muharram, 622ad, even thoe the prophet didnt migrate untill the 3rd moon of the year as they say. I dont see whats the big deal.
It is big deal since had Umar decided to make the new moon nearest to the date of the Hijra the start of the new calendar then Muharam 1 would have been 3 months later and the whole calendar would have shifted by 3 months.
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 28, 2009, 02:41:18 PMAnd just because muhammad migrated in month( moon) rabi al awal, dont mean rabi alawal has to be called month 1 ( or moon 1); because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st.
He could have called the month where the actual Hijra took place Muharam and made it the first. Unless, you make a baseless assumption that there is something distinctly special about the new moon crescent of Muharam.
Quote from: anthonywallace on August 28, 2009, 02:41:18 PMThe months would be arbitary if rabi al awal was made to be month 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right.
How would they not be measured right? Is there anything special about the new moon crescent of Rabi Al-Awal that makes it distinct from the new moon crescent of Muharram?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Thanks once again for helping further discredit the traditional timing and for proving that the timing based on the great reading is best.
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PMData of full moons after summer solstice from 2000-2019:
YEAR MONTH TIME (GMT)JULIAN DAY #OF DAYS
2000 July 16 13:57 2451742.081 354.048
2001 July 5 15:06 2452096.129 354.277
2002 June 24 21:45 2452450.406 383.902
2003 July 13 19:23 2452834.308 354.657
2004 July 2 11:10 2453188.965 354.712
2005 June 22 04:15 2453543.677 383.95
2006 July 11 03:03 2453927.627 354.449
2007 June 30 13:50 2454282.076 383.95
2008 July 18 08:00 2454665.883 354.058
2009 July 7 09:23 2455019.891 354.09
2010 June 26 11:32 2455373.981 383.797
2011 July 15 06:41 2455757.778 354.51
2012 July 3 18:54 2456112.288 354.696
2013 June 23 11:34 2456466.982 383.994
2014 July 12 11:26 2456850.976 354.622
2015 July 2 02:21 2457205.598 383.86
2016 July 19 22:59 2457589.458 354.215
2017 July 9 04:09 2457943.673 354.032
2018 June 28 04:55 2458297.705 383.698
2019 July 16 21:40 2458681.403
Even if you go for a Million years into the future, you will find that the first full-moon after the summer solstice will always occur within 1-29 days after the summer solstice. It will thus always be in the same season and will never haphazardly move within the year.
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PMI have subtracted the Julian days (2nd moon-1st moon) to get the interval between the summer solstice.
The interval between summer solstices by definition is the number of days between solstices. So your calculation is irrelevant.
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PMFinding 1: None of the solstice interval matches the solar cycle of 365.2xx ? Contradiction
This is false. The interval between solstices, by definition, will always match the solar cycle.
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PMFinding 2: Ayman?s system cannot resolve the fraction within the interval ? contradiction
What fraction? Where did I use a fraction? You are a liar because I never used a fraction and I always count exactly 12 full-moons every single year.
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PMFinding 3: A 8 year cycle can be seen in the above table but the total number of days within the 8 year cycle is not a multiple of solar cycle. The first 8 year cycle gives 2923.945 days which is not equal to 8*365.24 = 2921.92 days ? Contradiction.
Where did I say anything about an 8 year cycle or any number of years cycle? You are lying and building a strawman because you are clearly desperate.
Quote from: guest on August 29, 2009, 03:04:43 PMNow let?s see what happens when we don?t count the 13 moon. This is crazy but we will go through the exercise. An absurd theory requires such a fake adjustment.
Eliminating the 13 moon changes the 383.xxx days to the following (top to bottom):
383.902 goes to 354.565
383.95 goes to 354.576
383.95 goes to 354.155
383.797 goes to 354.363
383.994 goes to 354.694
383.86 goes to 354.363
383.698 goes to 354.151
With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle.
The dilemma is if you keep the 13th moon you come close to satisfying 8 years aggregated solar days (still off by few days). Without the 13th moon you have lunar year.
Therefore, the mother question to the author is where is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar??
Now, will the real author please stand up and answer the question.
Your false question simply demonstrates your ignorance of the indisputable fact that by definition the solar cycle is the interval between solstices.
Peace,
Ayman
NOOOOOO MY MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT POST!!! :'(
Peace Meteora,
Quote from: Meteora on August 29, 2009, 10:01:35 PMNOOOOOO MY MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT POST!!! :'(
If you want to add value then tell us what the word "ramadan" means and translate it accordingly.
Peace,
Ayman
Yes, that is not of value, agreed.
Ramadan, IMO, could just be the name of a month or a timing of the year, so...
Peace Meteora,
Quote from: Meteora on August 29, 2009, 10:08:42 PMYes, that is not of value, agreed.
Ramadan, IMO, could just be the name of a month or a timing of the year, so...
So what does it mean? Is it meaningless?
Peace,
Ayman
I don't know. Do I look like the god?
I gave an opinion which I am entitled to. Wanna fight? :jedi:
Peace Meteora,
Quote from: Meteora on August 29, 2009, 10:12:34 PMI don't know. Do I look like the god?
I gave an opinion which I am entitled to. Wanna fight? :jedi:
So your opinion is that you don't know what the word "ramadan" means. I would suggest that if you want to add value you should try to find out what something means before discussing it. :)
Peace,
Ayman
I said I thought ramadan could be a name without meaning, not that it doesn't have one, and certainly my opinion wasn't that I don't know it's meaning i.e. "my opinion is that I don't know the meaning of ramadan", So...what the hell? :laugh:
Peace Meteora,
Quote from: Meteora on August 29, 2009, 10:22:24 PMI said I thought ramadan could be a name without meaning, not that it doesn't have one, and certainly my opinion wasn't that I don't know it's meaning i.e. "my opinion is that I don't know the meaning of ramadan", So...what the hell? :laugh:
So your opinion is that "ramadan" is a name without meaning and you know its non-existent meaning. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on August 29, 2009, 10:35:50 PM
Peace Meteora,
So your opinion is that "ramadan" is a name without meaning and you know its non-existent meaning. :)
Peace,
Ayman
...are you high?
Peace
Quote from: Meteora on August 30, 2009, 12:00:08 AM
...are you high?
...Or maybe someone else is low .. O0
Peace and Blessings be upon you all,
God does not want you to suffer and couldn't care less how many days you fast. We can't even confirm that shahar means month! Fasting is a universal practise ordained upon all the scriptures. God sent messengers to all Nations (as the Quran says).
If you can fast easily then do so, otherwise just give to the poor (as the quran says) and do not worry about anything. God Loves you.
Peace and Blessings xox
Rida Almansour (Acceptance of the One who will triumph)
Quote from: quickduck on August 30, 2009, 01:55:13 AM
Peace
...Or maybe someone else is low .. O0
No seriously. Could you make out what he just said?
Quote from: farida on August 29, 2009, 04:00:47 PM
Peace Rami,
Then what have you got to back up your accusation?I can also say that you are an imposter but I would have to produce my evidence for it so its no good repeating Ayman’s rhetoric, come up with some thing new or shut up.Keep your wondering to yourself I don’t need lesson from you at least .Ha ha ha there we go again and at last we know the real identity of this one who would love to see our month of fasting disintegrate. You really thinks I pay any attention to what you have got to say.
:peace:
Your language is repulsive.
I have no comment.
Peace.
Quote from: Rami on August 30, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
Your language is repulsive.
Peace.
Peace Rami
It was only in response to your abhorrent accusation.
QuoteI have no comment.
In that case stay out of this discussion.
However let me give you an example of what I consider truly repulsive:
Quote from: siki on August 25, 2009, 07:06:05 AMYes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? This language is no different from the one used by Hitler, referring to Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone and that?s why I gave him the Roman Salute in reply.
:peace:
Peace,
Quote from Ayman: "Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent"
Ayman says that an error of 1-2 days is possible with new moon based timing system. Since his so called system is better than the new moon timing system, his system must produce an error less than a day.
Quote from Ayman: "...This is the simplest and most straightforward method that would generate the least discrepancies no matter how primitive or advanced a society is ......."
In one of his post he cited the full moon date of July 6, 2009 which is in fact an error of more than a day thereby disproving his own system. But that's not the end of it, I am going to show if this system is used by the primitive people they would make an error of 30 days or more.
If you look at the sun rise/set time in the table below, you will find sun rise and sun set times are the same for days 20-22 under June column (0443 & 1937 hrs). What does this means. It means Ayman system cannot pinpoint the longest day accurately. Therefore, it is not a clear marker as he claimed to be. Determination of longest day is critical because the full moon sighting is dependent on it per Ayman theory. We need atomic and quartz timing standard to find the longest day. With the aid of modern technology we know this day to be 21 June of each year. How would the primitive people know when the longest day is? How would have they resolve the minute variation in the length of days around June 21? If they were forced to use Ayman theory, some community would have used June 20, another community would have used June 21, and other communities would have used June 22. The one who used June 20 summer solstice (full moon is also on 20 June) will make an error of 30 days. This is because Ayman's theory does not allow the use of full moon prior to summer solstice i.e. June 20 full moon. Please note that such problem does not exist with the new moon timing system
As a side note, we want Ayman to talk/write as much as possible. Because every time he write he contradicts a fact or his previous writing. Even a child will detect his shortcomings. And we find people (mature?) following him. How sad is that? Ayman, please don't stop writing, we look forward to your contradictory statements. It makes my day. Thank you.
The timing for May and July is provided for comparative purpose only i.e. one can determine the maximum deviation in minutes from one month to other and determine for themselves if primitive people were able to resolve such time deviation.
o , o ,
Location: W077 02, N38 53 Rise and Set for the Sun for 2009
Eastern Standard Time U. S. Naval Observatory
May June July
Day Rise Set Rise Set Rise Set
h m h m h m h m h m h m
01 0510 1901 0445 1928 0447 1937
02 0509 1902 0444 1928 0447 1937
03 0508 1903 0444 1929 0448 1937
04 0507 1904 0444 1930 0448 1937
05 0505 1905 0443 1930 0449 1937
06 0504 1906 0443 1931 0449 1936
07 0503 1907 0443 1931 0450 1936
08 0502 1908 0443 1932 0451 1936
09 0501 1908 0443 1933 0451 1935
10 0500 1909 0442 1933 0452 1935
11 0459 1910 0442 1934 0452 1935
12 0458 1911 0442 1934 0453 1934
13 0457 1912 0442 1934 0454 1934
14 0456 1913 0442 1935 0455 1933
15 0455 1914 0442 1935 0455 1933
16 0455 1915 0442 1936 0456 1932
17 0454 1916 0442 1936 0457 1931
18 0453 1917 0443 1936 0458 1931
19 0452 1918 0443 1936 0458 1930
20 0451 1918 0443 1937 0459 1929
21 0451 1919 0443 1937 0500 1929
22 0450 1920 0443 1937 0501 1928
23 0449 1921 0444 1937 0502 1927
24 0449 1922 0444 1937 0502 1926
25 0448 1923 0444 1937 0503 1926
26 0448 1923 0445 1937 0504 1925
27 0447 1924 0445 1938 0505 1924
28 0446 1925 0445 1938 0506 1923
29 0446 1926 0446 1937 0507 1922
30 0445 1926 0446 1937 0508 1921
31 0445 1927 0508 1920
Add one hour for daylight time, if and when in use.
Quote from: farida on August 30, 2009, 01:05:14 PM
Peace Rami
It was only in response to your abhorrent accusation.In that case stay out of this discussion.
However let me give you an example of what I consider truly repulsive: Quote from: siki on August 25, 2009, 07:06:05 AM
Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? This language is no different from the one used by Hitler, referring to Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone and that’s why I gave him the Roman Salute in reply.
:peace:
But seriously what is your astronomical point of reference for Ramadan?
And what is your proof from the Quran?
Quote from: Rami on August 30, 2009, 03:03:06 PM
But seriously what is your astronomical point of reference for Ramadan?
And what is your proof from the Quran?
Peace Rami,
Read this thread very carefully with open mind and you will get all the answers.
And then bring your evidence for your accusation.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on August 30, 2009, 04:30:24 PM
Peace Rami,
Read this thread very carefully with open mind and you will get all the answers.
And then bring your evidence for your accusation.
:peace:
This thread is a black hole. Just link me to your killer post.
Quote from: Rami on August 30, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
This thread is a black hole. Just link me to your killer post.
LoLs(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/1540/funnyguy.gif)
Ayman, I'm still waiting for a response..
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 03:07:37 PM
There is no more escaping with your childish comments above.
I said:
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 05:04:09 PM
Also, another question for ayman:
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2:185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqan
Then you said:
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
There you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 27, 2009, 02:25:59 PM
Anyways, ayman, just a question:
what sounds more logical to you:
1. The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or
2. The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
Quote from: progressive1993 on August 19, 2009, 01:30:18 PM
From submission.org/fasting-bible.html:
Jeremiah 36:6. "Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities." Here we find a definite practice of fasting. The following verses will show that this is not just a day of fasting, but precisely a month. More detail on this day of fasting is given in verse nine: "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
Indeed, God did not lie when he said:
2:183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware.
Ayman, do you have any evidence of monotheists having fasted after witnessing the "moon of scorching heat"?? Do you have ANY evidence? I showed you my evidence for the real Ramadan - not the fabricated, one-third "Ramadan" of yours. Are you still going to reject the real Ramadan, and not fast for a full month - not just your lousy 10 days?
Peace
Peace Ayman, and everyone,
I know the game A-team are playing as I am a lawyer in the west so I know how the system of exhaustion works. But to help other let me explain; when you make a complaint you need to go through the grievance procedure from first stage to last and the replies you get are long but of no substance. Still you have to exhaust the departments and often, when someone at the top of the ladder is involved, the complaint fails to get sorted :pr
Then you must take the complaint to the regulatory body and if the regulatory body sides with the culprit they first of all work on delay tactics being slow to reply. Often you will have to send them a reminder and after that they ask you the same old questions all over and reply to your very valid argument with long letters never answering or addressing your grievance. :(
Again you have to draw their attention to the relevant points and then they ignore points and you are back to the same old arguments, at times each letter referring to each point on each line raised. And the process goes on and on until it goes to the top and the top executive may look with sympathy at your file and ask special investigators to look into it who again ask you the same old questions designed only to delay and exhaust. :brickwall: (I hope now everyone understands why >:D lawyers charge hefty fees)
Ayman you are guilty of that same old tricks and long lecturing and none of us needs that. You did bring lots of valid arguments last year and we proved you wrong. Last year I genuinely thought you were sincere in your search for truth but, after giving all the evidence from the Quran and Language I was surprised to see no change in the views of you or your cronies. This confirmed to me that you are not in search of the truth but on a mission to deconstruct our Ramadan,
Everyone can see for themselves that last Ramadan, from page 8 to 28 of this thread how genuine I was hoping to learn and exchange knowledge but sadly it seems you people have a hidden agenda. You know very well that most in this forum are disgusted with hadith based teaching and I don?t blame them for hating the mullah culture, but to take advantage of this situation to promote your own warped version is even worse.
Now I will paste below references from your posts and prove to everyone that you do nothing but lecture and repeat yourself and whenever you do that I will go back to the thread and dig out your previous posts even if it means ignoring rest of my work.
Quote from: ayman on August 29, 2009, 09:29:23 PM
Peace Farida and everyone who is having a panic attack as a result of the indisputable fact that their traditional calendar is 100% arbitrary,
Me and "my cronies" :) used to be in the same exact place as you. A few years ago I used to believe in the arbitrary sectarian Ramadan that has ZERO basis in the great reading exactly like you do. No matter what the result is, trying to determine the timing purely based on the great reading is better than ignoring the great reading and mindlessly following the chain of tradition. People who try to follow the truth in the great reading will always have the higher moral and logical ground over those who blindly follow arbitrary and false manmade traditions. This might seem like arrogance to you but it is because you have no real faith in your so-called Ramadan and this explains all the anger and inferiority complexes that you demonstrated on this thread. All that you proved is that your house is made of cards and this is why you get so mad when anyone shakes it. :)
Ayman
You have given similar lecture in this thread I give you page numbers for your convenience Page 16: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer Reply #234 on: September 08, 2008, 04:24:43 AM ?
Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that ......... Its a long similar lecture. ::) Check it and let me know if I am wrong :&
QuoteThere are 84 pages on this thread of evidences and sources. Despite all the noise you are making, you have not provided even one valid or invalid argument.
Lets see your last yrs post first:[b For etymology note here your blabbling on Page 16 and[/b]
Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.... page 81 : Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer Reply #234 on: September 08, 2008, 04:24:43 AM ?
Now See My Month Etymology below pg 81: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #1213 on: August 27, 2009, 04:29:25 PM ?
Month Etymology: Since Urdu is nearest to Arabic culturally so let me start with Urdu "Mahina", also called "Mah" and moon too is called "Mah" (Mahjabeen) in Swedish, the word for month is: M?nad (from M?ne=moon) in Icelandic: M?nu? (from M?ni=moon) and, as pointed out in my earlier post, in
Middle English < Old English mōna? < Proto-Germanic *mēnō?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include: Ancient Greek: μήν (mḗn), Armenian: ամիս (amis), German: Monat, Old High German: mānōd, Middle High German: mānōt, Old Irish: m?, and Old Slavic:(měsęncĭ). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/month
QuoteAll you have done is be a cheerleader for Guest or Progressive1993 or anyone who comes along repeating the same old stale arguments for the sectarian arbitrary timing that we all know (remember we all have been there and done that). At least those people tried and made an effort even if they were unsuccessful and their own arguments turned against them.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that and try to fool others evey one can check here what we said:Up to page 28 you had several post form belH Anwar Nun but you ignore themn and Nun, Pseudo, EId, or Rex gave you scores of picture as evidence including that of the crescent But you kept saying in your response where the picture of the crescent I would like everyone to see for themselves here on page 19 this several post including this one Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #273 on: September 10, 2008, 04:41:31 PM ?
The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...but you keep coming back with accusation that he did not supply you with the picture ..dont hide the truth
I summed up my evidence from the Qur?an on page 19 in response to your theory the root question Hot/Ramadan or The Month of Ramadan. I would suggest we all do our own verification by looking into.9:1-5 and 81 Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #277 on: September 10, 2008, 09:49:00 PM ?
You started ignoring my post see page 19 Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer ? Reply #284 on: September 11, 2008, 12:32:43 AM ?
When you saw that I bowed out you came back with same old rhetoric so I came back with further evidence on page 20 Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer ? Reply #298 on: September 11, 2008, 09:04:17 PM ?
You summed up yet again on here page 22 Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #327 on: September 13, 2008, 04:33:10 AM ?
Samia came to support you and of course truthseeker11 with his duel ID, not to forget Umm Tariq :yay:On page 25
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #379 on: September 15, 2008, 09:41:33 PM ?
And yours is not a simple explanation, not even logically sound I paste here what I wrote earlier:
as Nun says in his last post "Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflectHere you go again: Quote
I think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 39:18).
And I provided you with all the evidence in my post to AW.. see below: Quote from: farida on September 09, 2008, 09:22:27 PM
Finger prints, DNA sample from your skin can bear witness and are used in this life Now!This is how i summed up:
Quote from: farida on September 09, 2008, 09:22:27 PM
Salaam Anthony and everyone,
Indeed!! As I understand from the verse above, there is no undue expectations on the physically impaired and, performing within their capacity will earn them a reward on par with that of the able.
However the argument was: ?how can one witness a month?? so it must, here, imply the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan".
As we learn from verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify.
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him.
b.? those amongst you who witnessed?? exclude only those who are mentally incapacitated.
These verses also made me realise that the deaf, the dumb and the blind are not excluded from testifying.
How does a deaf or dumb person bear witness?
By the use of eyes and skin, which would include using sign language, as well as employing writing tools. In both cases the skin is used to bear witness. Similarly a deaf person, capable of speaking, may use his sight and his lips/skin .
A blind person can use the skin (to feel with), along with the ears to witness and, regarding the month of Ramadan, a blind person has witnessed it simply by being present in his body, in that month .
This, in my opinion, is conclusive evidence, but I would welcome any input from others.
I hope we can now look into a timing device, using the sun and the moon, as a next step forward
QuoteWhether you like it or not, the fact that your Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and is not based on the great reading is true and you can?t prove otherwise. As for lies, there are plenty of examples. For example, those desperately trying to save the traditional timing on this thread have argued using 2:189, which talks about the ?crescents? being used as a timing device for the ?hajj?, but they are lying because their arbitrary timing for ?hajj? completely disregards the crescent and instead your pagan ?hajj? starts on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hija and not with any crescent and ends on the 13th of Dhu Al-Hija and not with any crescent. On the other hand, the timing that I found based on the great reading ends the ?hajj? with the crescent. Remember what I said about your house being a house of cards. I would suggest that you try to solidify your house and make a solid foundation for it before worrying about what others think. Start with something simple like 2:189 that everyone agrees on and try to time your ?hajj? accordingly
.
You can see duplicate of your this lecture here:Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer page 14 For today?s identical reply
? Reply #201 on: September 06, 2008, 02:54:12 AM
QuoteThere is no difference between what you are saying and what Hadithists say. You might as well dip some fresh flies in your food and drink some warm Camel urine to cure all your ills. Instead of following the message, you fanaticize that you are following the messenger when you are in fact following your misguided forefathers. Your chain is tied around your neck.
This is what I consider below my standard and your too I hope you can see. :nope:
QuoteIndeed. This is why you are so upset.
Look in your above quote and see who is upset :yes
QuoteThis is also why many people like me who used to follow the traditional timing have disregarded falsehood and are now following the timing according to the great reading. On the other hand, you have not convinced anyone to go back to following the 100% baseless and arbitrary traditional timing.
You can see all this ranting along with TS11 joined you pg 27 to further repeat and support you with his duel ID and my responses Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #402 on: September 16, 2008, 08:26:23 PM ?
Peace farida
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #373 on: September 15, 2008, 06:24:05 PM ?
________________________________________
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida
To make it easy for you go to page 28 there lot of evidence given by me check it now and 29 pg 30 31 and 32 this replay:
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #405 on: September 16, 2008, 09:28:56 PM ?
I repeat again O0
I think you are completely exhausted and "stuck in paralysis" after working on your Summer Solstice Scorching Full Moon Theory and could not contribute further but No worries just look at all the brilliant minds on free-minds and outside free-mind I'm sure the best calculations will be reached in due time. :peace:
Ps: Long search so if any mistakes, please do point out.
Quote from: Rami on August 30, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
This thread is a black hole. Just link me to your killer post.
At your service see above: ;D
:peace:
Quote from: Rami on August 30, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
Just link me to your killer post.
Peace Rami,
All my posts are killer post :muscle: however your request been granted above in my previous post. :jedi:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on August 30, 2009, 05:32:10 PMI know the game A-team are playing as I am a lawyer in the west so I know how the system of exhaustion works....
Judging from your long but useless post that fails to bring any evidence, you must be a really lousy lawyer. Please show any real evidence that your Ramadan is based on the great reading and is not 100% arbitrary. If Ramadan was your client, he would have fried by now :elektro: :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on August 30, 2009, 02:00:55 PMAs a side note, we want Ayman to talk/write as much as possible. Because every time he write he contradicts a fact or his previous writing. Even a child will detect his shortcomings. And we find people (mature?) following him. How sad is that? Ayman, please don't stop writing, we look forward to your contradictory statements. It makes my day. Thank you.
Listen Guest, you have already demonstrated that you ignore even the basics (for example that the solar year is the interval between solstices) so instead of parading your ignorance on the forum and focusing on me, please answer this ONE question:
Free-Minds Translation:
2:189. They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say: ?They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Pilgrimage.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed. Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons to time the "hajj".Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from Ayman, Aug 2009: "....the first full-moon after the summer solstice will always occur within 1-29 days after the summer solstice."
Quote from Ayman, Nov 20, 2004, 3:58:30 PM: "The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that."
First you say 0-30 days, now you say 1-29 days. Do you even realize that this is a contradiction. You have so many of them that you lost count of it. Any speech that comes out of your mouth is a contradiction. You are so good at it. Therefore, I am awarding the Ph.D degree to you for generating the most contradictions in a small article. You are the only winner of such certificate.
Quote from Ayman: "Thanks once again for helping further discredit the traditional timing and for proving that the timing based on the great reading is best."
Perhaps you didn't get the message, I was discrediting Ayman solstice timining system. One interval has about 354 days and other interval has about 383 days. Then you tried to discount the 13th moon to maintain sanity.
There is no traditional timing but there is such thing as Ayman's timing system where you haphazardly integrated two of God's system in violation of Quranic verses which say that the sun and the moon not to catch each other. You are trying catch them and bring them together. In doing so, you have produced an inconsistent timing system. You are the master compromiser, like the one who tried to bring the idolatry and monotheistic religion together or the one who follows two different sources. People like you tried to divert Prophet Muhammad but failed:
17:73 - They almost diverted you from the revelations we have given you. They wanted you to fabricate something else, in order to consider you a friend.
17:74 - If it were not that we strengthened you, you almost leaned towards them just a little bit.
Our timing system is based on Quranic verse 10:5 - "He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know." We use moon because it has phases to count number of years unlike the sun. Therefore, Our system is consistent with God's commandment.
Quote from Ayman: "It will thus always be in the same season and will never haphazardly move within the year."
Oh, now you are calling the God a haphazard designer of lunar system. How low can you get.
Quote from Ayman: "The interval between summer solstices by definition is the number of days between solstices. So your calculation is irrelevant."
There is nothing wrong with the summer solstice as we know it, but your sun/moon solstice is totally screwed-up.
Quote from Ayman: "What fraction? Where did I use a fraction? You are a liar because I never used a fraction and I always count exactly 12 full-moons every single year."
The fraction associated with the solar cycle 365.2xxx; you are ignoring it.
Quote from Ayman: "Where did I say anything about an 8 year cycle or any number of years cycle? You are lying and building a strawman because you are clearly desperate."
This the system you produced. You don't even know your own silly creation. Your system begets 8 years cycle.
Quote from Ayman: "Your false question simply demonstrates your ignorance of the indisputable fact that by definition the solar cycle is the interval between solstices."
This definition does not apply to Ayman solstice. You have a screwed-up timing system
2:185 Shahr ramadan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month...
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/19_SH.htm
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/17_RA.htm
I don't get why some people so DESPERATELY want to believe in the "Islamic calendar". It's the dumbest calendar ever because it serves absolutely no practical purpose. The seasons occur in different months of the "Islamic calendar" over just a few years. Also, it's next to impossible to know the precise date when a month of the "Islamic calendar" starts. Wouldn't an infinitely wise god would give us better ways of determining times of year? Understanding shahr ramadan as the Flower Moon [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Moon#Full_moon_names] is much, much more sensible because the Flower Moon is obvious, it's occurrence is independent of the decisions that were taken by previous generations and there's no evidence that the "Islamic calendar" was instituted by the god. Only those who secretly think the god is stupid can believe that the god instituted the "Islamic calendar" and therefore those who believe It did will probably go to Hell.
Quote from: ayman on August 30, 2009, 08:10:36 PM
Peace Farida,
Judging from your long but useless post that fails to bring any evidence, you must be a really lousy lawyer. Please show any real evidence that your Ramadan is based on the great reading and is not 100% arbitrary. If Ramadan was your client, he would have fried by now :elektro: :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thank you, "the Judge",, as always but at least your post is short and precise. As for me being a lousy lawyer. :yes
:peace:
35:10 The one whose evil work is adorned and he sees it as being good. God thus misguides whom he wills, and He guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself grieve over them. God is fully aware of what they are doing.
Peace Guest
Quote from: guest on August 30, 2009, 09:04:05 PM
Our timing system is based on Quranic verse 10:5 - "He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know." We use moon because it has phases to count number of years unlike the sun. Therefore, Our system is consistent with God's commandment.
Once again you are trying to use a twisted Translation to prove your (false claims).
Rachad khalifa's translation is not authorized by god.
Please read the arabic version : wa-qaddara-hu-manazila = and-measured/designed-IT-(into) phases. Notice that the "hu" refers to the moon itself.
you will accuse me of adding the ''into'' in my translation, but as everyone knows, in that case (and many others) the "into" is usesless in arabic .
Ex: wa-qaddara-hu-manazila is the same as wa-qaddara-hu-ila(into)-manazilin. But because the first form is untranslatable, we use the "into".
The reverse translation of "your and RK's 10:5", should be : wa-qaddara-manazila-hu. (and-measured/designed-its-phases.) Notice that unlike the original arabic, the "hu" here refers to the phases of the moon, not the moon itself.
And that's clear corruption of the quran (unless the one in everyone's hands is false, and you, lucky you, have the only genuine version).
So once you understand this, i'll go back to my favorite example : the knife AND the fork with 4 spears, to cut AND pick the meat. :muscle:
Salam,
P.S : wave your hand and say "hello" to every arabic speaking person who are right now laughing at you.
So it all boils down to this...
Is the year a period of 12 lunar cycles or a run through the seasons?
Is Ramadan moving through the seasons or is the seasons moving through Ramadan?
And why is Ramadan that particular lunar cycle? What is the definition of that particular cycle?
Peace.
Quote from: MUNZIR ALI on August 30, 2009, 10:35:32 AM
Don't be rude or I will :elektro:
Right before I :voodoo:
Quote from: Supernaut on August 30, 2009, 09:39:40 PM
2:185 Shahr ramadan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month...
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/19_SH.htm
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/17_RA.htm
I don't get why some people so DESPERATELY want to believe in the "Islamic calendar". It's the dumbest calendar ever because it serves absolutely no practical purpose. The seasons occur in different months of the "Islamic calendar" over just a few years. Also, it's next to impossible to know the precise date when a month of the "Islamic calendar" starts. Wouldn't an infinitely wise god would give us better ways of determining times of year? Understanding shahr ramadan as the Flower Moon [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Moon#Full_moon_names] is much, much more sensible because the Flower Moon is obvious, it's occurrence is independent of the decisions that were taken by previous generations and there's no evidence that the "Islamic calendar" was instituted by the god. Only those who secretly think the god is stupid can believe that the god instituted the "Islamic calendar" and therefore those who believe It did will probably go to Hell.
Agree with this except for the last statement. What the hell says people who believe in the traditional ramadan will go to hell?
Meteora,
The traditional understanding of ramadan is dumb and to attribute something dumb to the god is to imply that the god is dumb, which is irrational and untrue. It is the god's law that people who don't rid their minds of irrationality and falsehood will end up in Hell.
Quote from: Meteora on August 31, 2009, 05:55:44 AM
Right before I :voodoo:
:jedi: I will do it before you do!
Quote from: Supernaut on August 30, 2009, 09:39:40 PM
2:185 Shahr ramadan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month...
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/19_SH.htm
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/17_RA.htm
I don't get why some people so DESPERATELY want to believe in the "Islamic calendar".
Peace Supernaut,
You are talking of the calendar adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab as he in his wisdom felt it necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates.
For the
Quranic approach understand reference A & B below: A-9:36.
The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record......
Now if you seriously want to seek the truth then go back to Rex?s post on page 80? Reply #1185 on: August 25, 2009, 05:56:46 AM ?
In response to point 4 quickduck :
Now pay attention to a very important question raised by Rex: Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
He again raised that question to Ayman here page 81 ? Reply #1202 on: August 26, 2009, 04:29:40 AM
: Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?
Both ignored this very valid Question which is the core as described in 9:37.[/b]
B- 9:37 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may
misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people
QuoteIt's the dumbest calendar ever because it serves absolutely no practical purpose. The seasons occur in different months of the "Islamic calendar" over just a few years. Also, it's next to impossible to know the precise date when a month of the "Islamic calendar" starts. Wouldn't an infinitely wise god would give us better ways of determining times of year?
What you?re talking of now is your view/opinion and I as a lawyer should ignore it but I have time, as long as you don?t repeat your questions, or else be ready to pay my fee >:D .
I can see that you use http://www.studyquran.co.uk so it may add to everyone?s knowledge if you study the two terms for years used in the Qur?an and share this knowledge with us. I give you a few examples below:
The year 3am( عَامًا) is used for carrying out our obligations to God, and the term Seeneen ( بِالسِّنِينَ ) is also year especially in connection with land,
5:26 Land be out of reach 40 yrs
12:47,48, year of draught and harvesting ,
10:5 The sun and the moon are both used when referring to Sineen
17:12 where for daily seeking bounty from land sineen is used
9:26 wish to live life thousand seeneen,
So clearly there are two types of years in the Quran.
The calendar you or Meteora are referring to is the official calendar, adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab to fix the dates. This did NOT disturb the month of fasting.(just as the ?sunni? in my blue lagoon scenario see?s Ramadan as the 12th month, of his migration yet he fast on same occasion as the rest whose calendar see this month as the 9th)
QuoteUnderstanding shahr ramadan as the Flower Moon [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Moon#Full_moon_names] is much, much more sensible because the Flower Moon is obvious, it's occurrence is independent of the decisions that were taken by previous generations
Good of you to select ?the Flower moon ?from the Wikipedia collection since what, in English, is called the full moon is actually half of the moon cycle. ;)
Quoteand there's no evidence that the "Islamic calendar" was instituted by the god. Only those who secretly think the god is stupid can believe that the god instituted the "Islamic calendar" and therefore those who believe It did will probably go to Hell.
We do not fast according to your ?stupid" Islamic calendar, we fast according to the cycle started by the prophet per the event when the Qur?an was revealed to him, and he surly knew more than your dictionaries if it was during burning, heat/ blasted by the sun. :yes
As ?guest? pointed out on page 80 ? Reply #1192 on: August 25, 2009, 07:08:49 PM ? The Quran says Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. Nowhere in the Quran have we found that Ayman was given wisdom. On the contrary the Quran warns us about people like you who twist God?s words :hmm
So Alhumdullilah, despite all failed attempts to knock unconscious true Muslims in order to make re-arrangements, the cycle established by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is rock solid and is going on till this day without any discontinued intercalation or frozen commutation. :hail
:peace:
Ps: An example of Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous : The announcement (Cards) proud parents convey about the birth of their infant... :sun:
Peace Ayman
Quote from Ayman: ?(for example that the solar year is the interval between solstices)?
Solar year can be defined between two March equinoxes, between two June solstices, between September equinoxes, and between two December solstices.
The issue at hand is not the solar year but your convoluted solar/lunar timing system. You have produced a timing system that is neither solar nor lunar. Yet you claim that it in synch with 365.2xx. I have exposed the truth about your timing system (354/383 days). If it is strictly solar or strictly lunar timing system then you (Ayman) is irrelevant. You (Ayman) come into picture because of integrated single solar/lunar timing system.
Now, please refute the below statement and tell us how primitive people determined the summer solstice accurately.
Unlike the equinox, the solstice time is not easy to determine. The changes in Solar declination become smaller as the sun gets closer to its maximum/minimum declination. The days before and after the solstice, the declination speed is less than 30 arcseconds/day which is less than 1/60th of the angular size of the sun, or the equivalent to just 2 seconds of right ascension.
This difference is hardly detectable with indirect viewing based devices like sextant equipped with a vernier, and impossible with more traditional tools like a gnomon or an astrolabe. It is also hard to detect the changes on sunrise/sunset azimuth due to the atmospheric refraction changes. Those accuracy issues render impossible to determine the solstice day based on observations made within the 3 (or even 5) days surrounding the solstice, without the use of more complex tools.
Ayman...
Quote
There is no more escaping with your childish comments above.
I said:
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 05:04:09 PM
Also, another question for ayman:
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2:185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqan
Then you said:
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
There you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
Quote
Anyways, ayman, just a question:
what sounds more logical to you:
1. The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or
2. The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
Quote
From submission.org/fasting-bible.html:
Jeremiah 36:6. "Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities." Here we find a definite practice of fasting. The following verses will show that this is not just a day of fasting, but precisely a month. More detail on this day of fasting is given in verse nine: "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
Indeed, God did not lie when he said:
2:183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware.
Ayman, do you have any evidence of monotheists having fasted after witnessing the "moon of scorching heat"?? Do you have ANY evidence? I showed you my evidence for the real Ramadan - not the fabricated, one-third "Ramadan" of yours. Are you still going to reject the real Ramadan, and not fast for a full month - not just your lousy 10 days?
Your response is awaited.
Peace,
have a nice Ramadan.
Quote from: Supernaut on August 31, 2009, 06:36:49 AM
Meteora,
The traditional understanding of ramadan is dumb and to attribute something dumb to the god is to imply that the god is dumb, which is irrational and untrue. It is the god's law that people who don't rid their minds of irrationality and falsehood will end up in Hell.
What if they humbly believe it's not dumb? What if they're not implying that God is dumb?
Point is God won't trick. Yes surely those who think God is dumb (like those dumb enough that they thought ones with enough knowledge of the Quran will think the ahadith are God-and-messenger-supported) are condemned i.e. enemies of the prophet.
2:183 O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient.
2:184 A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able.
2:185 The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
8)
27:26 ?And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.?
I have a way to resolve the issue.
A year is a count of 12 lunar cycles.
4 are restricted.
Ramadan is the hottest lunar cycle.
No need for any intercalation, determining solstices or misnomers.
Pure, simple and straightforward.
Quote from: guest on August 30, 2009, 09:04:05 PM
Peace Ayman,
Quote from Ayman, Aug 2009: "....the first full-moon after the summer solstice will always occur within 1-29 days after the summer solstice."
Quote from Ayman, Nov 20, 2004, 3:58:30 PM: "The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that."
First you say 0-30 days, now you say 1-29 days. Do you even realize that this is a contradiction. You have so many of them that you lost count of it. Any speech that comes out of your mouth is a contradiction. You are so good at it. Therefore, I am awarding the Ph.D degree to you for generating the most contradictions in a small article. You are the only winner of such certificate.
Quote from Ayman: "Thanks once again for helping further discredit the traditional timing and for proving that the timing based on the great reading is best."
Perhaps you didn't get the message, I was discrediting Ayman solstice timining system. One interval has about 354 days and other interval has about 383 days. Then you tried to discount the 13th moon to maintain sanity.
There is no traditional timing but there is such thing as Ayman's timing system where you haphazardly integrated two of God's system in violation of Quranic verses which say that the sun and the moon not to catch each other. You are trying catch them and bring them together. In doing so, you have produced an inconsistent timing system. You are the master compromiser, like the one who tried to bring the idolatry and monotheistic religion together or the one who follows two different sources. People like you tried to divert Prophet Muhammad but failed:
17:73 - They almost diverted you from the revelations we have given you. They wanted you to fabricate something else, in order to consider you a friend.
17:74 - If it were not that we strengthened you, you almost leaned towards them just a little bit.
Our timing system is based on Quranic verse 10:5 - "He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know." We use moon because it has phases to count number of years unlike the sun. Therefore, Our system is consistent with God's commandment.
Quote from Ayman: "It will thus always be in the same season and will never haphazardly move within the year."
Oh, now you are calling the God a haphazard designer of lunar system. How low can you get.
Quote from Ayman: "The interval between summer solstices by definition is the number of days between solstices. So your calculation is irrelevant."
There is nothing wrong with the summer solstice as we know it, but your sun/moon solstice is totally screwed-up.
Quote from Ayman: "What fraction? Where did I use a fraction? You are a liar because I never used a fraction and I always count exactly 12 full-moons every single year."
The fraction associated with the solar cycle 365.2xxx; you are ignoring it.
Quote from Ayman: "Where did I say anything about an 8 year cycle or any number of years cycle? You are lying and building a strawman because you are clearly desperate."
This the system you produced. You don't even know your own silly creation. Your system begets 8 years cycle.
Quote from Ayman: "Your false question simply demonstrates your ignorance of the indisputable fact that by definition the solar cycle is the interval between solstices."
This definition does not apply to Ayman solstice. You have a screwed-up timing system
Salaam guest,
It is so good of you to give us previous references but one thing would really help if you could paste with these exhibits page number as well as reply number so that we can all check it easily
Many thanks
:peace:
Everyone but ayman is still wrong.
Quote from: guest on August 30, 2009, 02:00:55 PM
Peace,
Quote from Ayman: "Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent"
Ayman says that an error of 1-2 days is possible with new moon based timing system. Since his so called system is better than the new moon timing system, his system must produce an error less than a day.
Quote from Ayman: "...This is the simplest and most straightforward method that would generate the least discrepancies no matter how primitive or advanced a society is ......."
In one of his post he cited the full moon date of July 6, 2009 which is in fact an error of more than a day thereby disproving his own system. But that's not the end of it, I am going to show if this system is used by the primitive people they would make an error of 30 days or more.
If you look at the sun rise/set time in the table below, you will find sun rise and sun set times are the same for days 20-22 under June column (0443 & 1937 hrs). What does this means. It means Ayman system cannot pinpoint the longest day accurately. Therefore, it is not a clear marker as he claimed to be. Determination of longest day is critical because the full moon sighting is dependent on it per Ayman theory. We need atomic and quartz timing standard to find the longest day. With the aid of modern technology we know this day to be 21 June of each year. How would the primitive people know when the longest day is? How would have they resolve the minute variation in the length of days around June 21? If they were forced to use Ayman theory, some community would have used June 20, another community would have used June 21, and other communities would have used June 22. The one who used June 20 summer solstice (full moon is also on 20 June) will make an error of 30 days. This is because Ayman's theory does not allow the use of full moon prior to summer solstice i.e. June 20 full moon. Please note that such problem does not exist with the new moon timing system
Salaam guest
This is a brilliant observation :bravo:
QuoteAs a side note, we want Ayman to talk/write as much as possible. Because every time he write he contradicts a fact or his previous writing. Even a child will detect his shortcomings. And we find people (mature?) following him. How sad is that? Ayman, please don't stop writing, we look forward to your contradictory statements. It makes my day. Thank you.
:peace:
Good idea but his repeated ranting drives me mad :brickwall: It reminds me of very annoying people I have to deal with all the time, :(
:peace:
Peace Guest and others blindly following the arbitrary sectarian calendar,
As expected, you have evaded answering this question and none of the sectarians on this thread could help you:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".
You will NEVER be able to answer because just like everything else in your manmade useless unintelligent system, your timing for "hajj" is 100% arbitrary and it neither starts nor ends with the crescent.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Rami,
Quote from: Rami on August 31, 2009, 01:00:22 PMI have a way to resolve the issue.
A year is a count of 12 lunar cycles.
4 are restricted.
Ramadan is the hottest lunar cycle.
No need for any intercalation, determining solstices or misnomers.
Pure, simple and straightforward.
This is actually pretty complicated since now you have to measure temperature first and find the hottest cycle then go back in time and fast it. This also doesn't solve the logical absurdity that results from "shahr" meaning "month" or "cycle" which implies that you would have to witness the month/cycle first and then go back in time and abstain. The ONLY way to resolve this is if "shahr" was an event. There is simply no other way.
On the other hand, the summer solstices are fixed so they are pretty easy to determine using the clear method in 17:12. This is the ONLY way to apply 17:12. Next, all you would have to do is to count exactly 12 full-moons between solstices as per 9:36 and skip the occasional 13th full-moon. This effortlessly and automatically adjusts the cycle to match the seasons without relying on corrupt religious authorities who arbitrarily delay and abrogate the hunting restriction as the sectarians do. This is the ONLY and simplest fool-proof way to use the lunar cycle while maintaining it in sync with the seasons.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Everyone,
Please make a note of Ayman's method which is in line with that of the rejectors in 9:37:
Please pay perticular attention to 9:37 (B) below:
A-9:36. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous
check all the calculations from Rex and make a note of his question to quickduck page 80 ? Reply #1185 on: August 25, 2009, 05:56:46 AM ?:
Rex: Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
He again raised that question with Ayman here on page 81 ? Reply #1202 on: August 26, 2009, 04:29:40 AM
Rex: Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?
Both ignored this very valid Question which is the core as described in 9:37.
Now Read 9:37:
B- 9:37 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on August 31, 2009, 11:41:25 PM
A-9:36. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous
Now Read 9:37:
B- 9:37 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people
Rex: Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
Please notice that Rex didn't say "the next year" or "one year and one year" (consecutive years) as 9:37 says. He said "one" year and a "different" year. He knows that when the full-moon after the summer solstice falls on June 22, the one after it will never be on July 20. It will be approximately on July 10. So it is not an "additional month" every year even according to your false translation of 9:37. As I have indicated to Rex, even across millions of years the hunting restriction will always still be within the same time frame (early summer-early fall). On the other hand, let?s put your arbitrary sectarian timing to the test using your OWN understanding of 9:36-37:
1. The arbitrary sectarian hunting restriction that you and Rex blindly follow is not even four ?months? in blatant violation of 9:36-37. It is only a few days during your so-called Hajj from 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijja and the few days before it when you reach the vicinity of Mecca and do the so-called Ihram. So it is not even a week, let alone a month or four months per your own understanding. So you are hypocritically violating even your OWN understanding.
2. Your arbitrary restricted ?months? are months 11, 12, and 1 and then you suddenly haphazardly jump to month 7 (Rajab). This clearly contradicts 9:5 which confirms that the restricted period is consecutive.
3. This is all in addition to the fact that your translation of 9:36-37 is false. The word nasi? in Arabic doesn?t mean ?month?, it means ?delay? or ?falling behind in something?. This year your restricted four ?months? will be about 21 October - 19 January and then you jump ahead six months to sometimes in June. So it is completely haphazard. Next year they will be just as haphazard and so on. So essentially you are delaying one of the four months and messing up the timing every year and not just one year out of two as the Arabs did at the time 9:36-37 was revealed. So you are even worse than the rejecters in 9:37.
4. The timing of the restricted four months is 100% arbitrary and has nothing to do with the very wild life it is supposed to protect (which follows the solar cycle).
These are just four examples of your hypocrisy where you quote 9:36-37 but forget to apply them to yourself. On the other hand, I follow 9:36 to the letter and count exactly 12 full-moons every single year. This automatically results in 9:37 not being violated and the hunting restriction always falling in the same timeframe even a million years from now.
It is no wonder that neither you, Rex, Guest, Progressive, or any other hypocrite sectarian will ever be able to answer how your so-called Hajj, which like everything about your mindless system, arbitrarily takes place from 8 to 13 of Dhu Al-Hijjah despite 2:189 being absolutely clear that the crescents must be used to time ?hajj?. Here is the question again that you are hypocritically evading and hoping that people forget about:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj". I guarantee that you will
NEVER be able to answer.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I have regards for you in respect of scholarly research works in matters of Islam.
Please can you tell in a single line how one must abstain when it comes to Shar Ramadhan as per your research and understanding. I have not yet read your article fully and objectively. I'm asking this question to just know your contention in a nutshell.
Is is abstinence only on a full moon day in summer solstice?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace Vivek,
Quote from: vivek on September 01, 2009, 03:17:26 AMI have regards for you in respect of scholarly research works in matters of Islam.
Please can you tell in a single line how one must abstain when it comes to Shar Ramadhan as per your research and understanding. I have not yet read your article fully and objectively. I'm asking this question to just know your contention in a nutshell.
Is is abstinence only on a full moon day in summer solstice?
Basically, witnessing "shahr ramadhan" means witnessing the scorching full-moon. Per 2:184-185, when we witness the scorching full moon we abstain the abstinence for the complete count (10 days) of a few days (3-10 days). The scorching full-moon is the full-moon after the summer solstice. The interval between solstices is how years are determined as per 17:12. The lunar cycle is kept in sync with the solar cycle by counting exactly 12 full-moons in the solar year (as per 9:36). Thus, we would skip the occasional 13th full-moon and this would automatically and effortlessly align the lunar cycle with the solar cycle. It is the perfect system.
I hope this very short summary helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 02:29:10 AM
Peace Farida,
Please notice that Rex didn't say "the next year" or "one year and one year" (consecutive years) as 9:37 says. He said "one" year and a "different" year. He knows that when the full-moon after the summer solstice falls on June 22, the one after it will never be on July 20. It will be approximately on July 10. So it is not an "additional month" every year even according to your false translation of 9:37. As I have indicated to Rex, even across millions of years the hunting restriction will always still be within the same time frame (early summer-early fall). On the other hand, let?s put your arbitrary sectarian timing to the test using your OWN understanding of 9:36-37:
Peace Ayman,
Ok let?s put our timing to the test; Please provide us with YOUR detailed calculations,(no indication or as
*) like the recent contributors have done below:
Page 68
Eid Abdullah - Reply #1024 on: Reply #1005 on: August 09, 2009, 12:39:31 AM and Reply #1011 on: August 10, 2009, 05:27:59 AM ??AM
Page 68,
Guest- Reply #1009 on: August 09, 2009, 08:03:45 PM
Page 70
Gues - Reply #1037 on: August 16, 2009, 04:20:05 PM ?
Disproved your theoryThe length of days between July 6, 2009 and June 25, 2010 is 354 days. This is lunar based timing system which does not synch up with the seasons. Page 76
Rex?s Reply #1136 on: August 23, 2009, 01:57:00 PM ?
Rolled back calculations for the Muslim(not Islamic) calendarPage 78
Rex -Reply #1163 on: August 24, 2009, 07:47:01 PM ?
calculations showing it is Impossible without the sun there cannot be moon phases.
Page 81
Rex?s Reply #1202 on: August 26, 2009, 04:29:40 AM ?
about your "Hot Moon Fantasy"...
page 84
Guest with his detailed calculation ? Reply #1253 on: August 29, 2009, 08:04:43 PM ?
With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle. Re? Contradiction.
where is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar?? Quote1. The arbitrary sectarian hunting restriction that you and Rex blindly follow is not even four ?months? in blatant violation of 9:36-37. It is only a few days during your so-called Hajj from 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijja and the few days before it when you reach the vicinity of Mecca and do the so-called Ihram. So it is not even a week, let alone a month or four months per your own understanding. So you are hypocritically violating even your OWN understanding
2. Your arbitrary restricted ?months? are months 11, 12, and 1 and then you suddenly haphazardly jump to month 7 (Rajab). This clearly contradicts 9:5 which confirms that the restricted period is consecutive.
3. This is all in addition to the fact that your translation of 9:36-37 is false. The word nasi? in Arabic doesn?t mean ?month?, it means ?delay? or ?falling behind in something?. This year your restricted four ?months? will be about 21 October - 19 January and then you jump ahead six months to sometimes in June. So it is completely haphazard. Next year they will be just as haphazard and so on. So essentially you are delaying one of the four months and messing up the timing every year and not just one year out of two as the Arabs did at the time 9:36-37 was revealed. So you are even worse than the rejecters in 9:37.
4. The timing of the restricted four months is 100% arbitrary and has nothing to do with the very wild life it is supposed to protect (which follows the solar cycle).
These are just four examples of your hypocrisy where you quote 9:36-37 but forget to apply them to yourself. On the other hand, I follow 9:36 to the letter and count exactly 12 full-moons every single year. This automatically results in 9:37 not being violated and the hunting restriction always falling in the same timeframe even a million years from now.
This is just your opinion we want proof
QuoteIt is no wonder that neither you, Rex, Guest, Progressive, or any other hypocrite sectarian will ever be able to answer how your so-called Hajj, which like everything about your mindless system, arbitrarily takes place from 8 to 13 of Dhu Al-Hijjah despite 2:189 being absolutely clear that the crescents must be used to time ?hajj?. Here is the question again that you are hypocritically evading and hoping that people forget about:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".
Big and bold writings cannot obscure that this thread is about Ramadan not hajj, :offtopic: there is another thread going on to discuss hajj etc :yes
QuoteI guarantee that you will NEVER be able to answer.
Peace,
Ayman
Haven?t we read this many times before, same old same old; here are your recent samples;
* Even if you go for a Million years into the future, you will find that the first full-moon after the summer solstice will always occur within 1-29 days after the summer solstice. It will thus always be in the same season and will never haphazardly move within the year. :muscle: You will NEVER be able to answer because just like everything else in your manmade useless unintelligent system, your timing for "hajj" is 100% arbitrary and it neither starts nor ends with the crescent.. :& I don?t want to go into a million years nor am I going for hajj :brickwall:
:peace:
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 02:29:10 AM
Please notice that Rex didn't say "the next year" or "one year and one year" (consecutive years) as 9:37 says. He said "one" year and a "different" year. He knows that when the full-moon after the summer solstice falls on June 22, the one after it will never be on July 20. It will be approximately on July 10. So it is not an "additional month" every year even according to your false translation of 9:37. As I have indicated to Rex, even across millions of years the hunting restriction will always still be within the same time frame (early summer-early fall).
9:37 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it,
they permit a year and they forbid a year, to agree to (the) term (that) God prohibited, so they permit what God prohibited, and (the) evil (of) their deeds was beautified for them, and God does not guide the people the disbelieving.
Full Moon Makkah, Saudi Arabia http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2013&n=151
2013 23-Jun 2:33 PM daytime
2016 20-Jul 1:57 AM
28 days difference end date included
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 03:33:37 AM
Basically, witnessing "shahr ramadhan" means witnessing the scorching full-moon. Per 2:184-185
How do you fast a full moon?
How do you see a full moon with poor vision or if blind?
How do you see a full moon if living in cloudy weather?
Ayman, you are ignoring my points... :(
Nothing new, I guess...
Quote
There is no more escaping with your childish comments above.
I said:
Quote from: progressive1993 on Yesterday at 05:04:09 PM
Also, another question for ayman:
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2:185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2:185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqan
Then you said:
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
There you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
Quote
Anyways, ayman, just a question:
what sounds more logical to you:
1. The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or
2. The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
Quote
From submission.org/fasting-bible.html:
Jeremiah 36:6. "Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities." Here we find a definite practice of fasting. The following verses will show that this is not just a day of fasting, but precisely a month. More detail on this day of fasting is given in verse nine: "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
Indeed, God did not lie when he said:
2:183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware.
Ayman, do you have any evidence of monotheists having fasted after witnessing the "moon of scorching heat"?? Do you have ANY evidence? I showed you my evidence for the real Ramadan - not the fabricated, one-third "Ramadan" of yours. Are you still going to reject the real Ramadan, and not fast for a full month - not just your lousy 10 days?
To hard to counter/answer?
Everyone, including the sects and traditionalists are right except Ayman and his "cronies."
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 01, 2009, 11:27:44 AM
Everyone, including the sects and traditionalists are right except Ayman and his "cronies."
:rotfl: what makes you say that?
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 01, 2009, 11:27:44 AM
Everyone, including the sects and traditionalists are right except Ayman and his "cronies."
Thats the most ignorant impulsive thing I have ever heard in years. Totally emotional lacking logic and reason.
Quote from: Rami on September 01, 2009, 11:48:18 AM
Thats the most ignorant impulsive thing I have ever heard in years. Totally emotional lacking logic and reason.
Since when has logic and reason had anything to do with it? :laugh:
Quote from: Rev.John on September 01, 2009, 12:03:24 PM
Since when has logic and reason had anything to do with it? :laugh:
Since 2001.
Quote from: Rev.John on September 01, 2009, 12:03:24 PM
Since when has logic and reason had anything to do with it? :laugh:
Exactly as if Reply #1241 on: August 28, 2009, 06:08:53 AM had anything to do with logic and reason >:( ;)
Quote from: MUNZIR ALI on September 01, 2009, 11:38:39 AM
:rotfl: what makes you say that?
The trend on this thread.
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 12:12:34 PM
Exactly as if Reply #1241 on: August 28, 2009, 06:08:53 AM had anything to do with logic and reason >:( ;)
I am the prodigy.
Peace
So much tension on this thread. Lucky you guys are not in the same room or there will be fireworks :voodoo: It be nice for everyone to concentrate on writting their own articles for us to read and compare as the thread has become so long now its becoming harder to follow and seems like lots of repeat questions and answers. We need to move forward, there will never be any winners if thats peoples ambition, specially when it comes to belief as people will protect what they have to the end.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on September 01, 2009, 12:38:56 PM
Peace
So much tension on this thread. Lucky you guys are not in the same room or there will be fireworks :voodoo: It be nice for everyone to concentrate on writting their own articles for us to read and compare as the thread has become so long now its becoming harder to follow and seems like lots of repeat questions and answers. We need to move forward, there will never be any winners if thats peoples ambition, specially when it comes to belief as people will protect what they have to the end.
Peace
Hope
Peace
I know that is why sometime its good to have light hearted exchange, but don't worry sensible moderators have been deleting off topic posts.
As for this thread being too long tell me about it. I am on a mission to point out repeated posts so all the hard work done here will not disappear in a black hole.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 01:40:06 PM
Peace
I know that is why sometime its good to have light hearted exchange, but don't worry sensible moderators have been deleting off topic posts.
As for this thread being too long tell me about it. I am on a mission to point out repeated posts so all the hard work done here will not disappear in a black hole.
:peace:
Peace Farida
Might be a good idea to write an article with your views. :peace:
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on September 01, 2009, 02:25:35 PM
Peace Farida
Might be a good idea to write an article with your views. :peace:
Peace
Hope
Peace Hope,
No I don?t believe in writing articles, when it comes to the Qur?an, as I feel it?s a huge responsibility and one little mistake on my side may mislead many. For this reason I am very careful when it comes to airing my views but if anyone challenges my faith I don?t sit back.
However if any needs assistance then I lead them to think for themselves with the help of my understanding of the interpretations like the one here
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598921.0 Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 10:08:16 PM
33:72 -We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 08:19:33 AMOk let?s put our timing to the test; Please provide us with YOUR detailed calculations,(no indication or as *) like the recent contributors have done below:
Page 68 Eid Abdullah - Reply #1024 on: Reply #1005 on: August 09, 2009, 12:39:31 AM and Reply #1011 on: August 10, 2009, 05:27:59 AM ??AM
Page 68, Guest- Reply #1009 on: August 09, 2009, 08:03:45 PM
Page 70 Gues - Reply #1037 on: August 16, 2009, 04:20:05 PM ?Disproved your theory
The length of days between July 6, 2009 and June 25, 2010 is 354 days. This is lunar based timing system which does not synch up with the seasons.
Page 76 Rex?s Reply #1136 on: August 23, 2009, 01:57:00 PM ? Rolled back calculations for the Muslim(not Islamic) calendar
Page 78 Rex -Reply #1163 on: August 24, 2009, 07:47:01 PM ? calculations showing it is Impossible without the sun there cannot be moon phases.
Page 81 Rex?s Reply #1202 on: August 26, 2009, 04:29:40 AM ? about your "Hot Moon Fantasy"...
page 84 Guest with his detailed calculation ? Reply #1253 on: August 29, 2009, 08:04:43 PM ?
With no 13th moon, we loose 8 year periodicity. And if we add all the years we get 361.233. No connection to solar cycle. Re? Contradiction.
You don't need a calculation to tell you that the moon cycle is 29-30 days and therefore the first-full-moon after the solstice will ALWAYS be 1-29 days after the solstice even in a MILLION years. It is not my problem that you are not intelligent enough to figure this out without a calculator.
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 08:19:33 AMwhere is the connection between solar year and the solstice interval satisfying the condition ?absolutely clear that the year is solar?? [/u] [/i]
Please see 17:12. The ONLY way 17:12 can be used to know the number of years is if the year is solar and is measured as the interval between solstices. If you are not intelligent enough to read 17:12 and understand its implications then let me know and I can provide a link to the last post where I explained this.
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 08:19:33 AMThis is just your opinion we want proof
Why do I need to prove that the sectarian Hajj takes place from 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijja? It is also a fact that your sectarian arbitrary restricted ?months? are months 11, 12, and 1 and then you suddenly haphazardly jump to month 7 (Rajab). This is what the people that you blindly follow do. Go ask Guest and Progressive and Rex if you don't believe me. It is an indisputable fact that wild life follow the solar cycle. Thus, they migrate and breed in accordance with the solar cycle, not the lunar cycle. It is not my problem that you are so ignorant that you don't know these basic facts or even your own crap that you are following.
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 08:19:33 AMBig and bold writings cannot obscure that this thread is about Ramadan not hajj, :offtopic: there is another thread going on to discuss hajj etc :yes
The thread is about the timing. Of course, in your arbitrary world nothing is related and nothing makes sense. You brought 9:36-37 into your argument, which have to do with "al-ashhur al-haram", which in turn have to do with "hajj". It is again not my problem that you ignore these basic facts and are not intelligent enough to see a connection. As Is said neither Rex, Guest, Progressive, or you will EVER be able to answer this question:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 08:19:33 AMHaven?t we read this many times before, same old same old; here are your recent samples;
* Even if you go for a Million years into the future, you will find that the first full-moon after the summer solstice will always occur within 1-29 days after the summer solstice. It will thus always be in the same season and will never haphazardly move within the year. :muscle: You will NEVER be able to answer because just like everything else in your manmade useless unintelligent system, your timing for "hajj" is 100% arbitrary and it neither starts nor ends with the crescent..
:& I don?t want to go into a million years nor am I going for hajj :brickwall:
You are a hypocrite and a coward. Just get a spine and admit that you don't know the answer. At any rate, thank you for continuing to prove me right with your lame excuses and evasiveness and thank you Rex, Guest and Progressive too for proving me right with your complete silence on this question. Indeed truth destroys falsehood.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 01, 2009, 09:52:45 AM
Peace,
9:37 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit a year and they forbid a year, to agree to (the) term (that) God prohibited, so they permit what God prohibited, and (the) evil (of) their deeds was beautified for them, and God does not guide the people the disbelieving.
Full Moon Makkah, Saudi Arabia
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2013&n=151
2013 23-Jun 2:33 PM daytime
2016 20-Jul 1:57 AM
28 days difference end date included
How do you fast a full moon?
How do you see a full moon with poor vision or if blind?
How do you see a full moon if living in cloudy weather?
Salaam brother
Nice to see that you are back to handle your part in this thread and, hopefully you won't be driven away by cheap tactics. I see you have three questions above along with 9:37; I just have one suggestion for you and everyone else, that is could we discuss one topic at a time? That way we can fully exhaust the issue before moving to the next so we may discuss in anorderly manner for everyone interested in this thread.
:peace:
:peace:
Peace Progressive,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 01, 2009, 11:08:17 AMAyman, you are ignoring my points... :(
Nothing new, I guess...
To hard to counter/answer?
I ignore you becaue I already answered this. Here are my answers again:
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 01, 2009, 11:08:17 AMThere you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
I never said such thing. I said it was descended in a scorching full-moon. This is the same as saying it descended in a blazing sun or a cloudy day, etc. Just like all the phases of the moon, the scorching moon is an entirely optical phenomenon.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 01, 2009, 11:08:17 AMwhat sounds more logical to you:
1. The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or
2. The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
The great reading is about consistency. The great reading was descended in a scorching full-moon is more logical because it is consistent with the rest of the passage and other passages. For example, it is consistent with the following facts:
1. The great reading was revealed in the night of measure (1 night not a whole month).
2. If you scan all the occurrences of the word "measure" then you will realize that the night of measure is connected to the moon. Specifically, we are told that the moon is
measured in descending stages until it becomes the crescent shape. Since the passage is talking about descending stages then it is impossible for the
measure to start from anything other than the full-moon. So the night of measure is essentially the same time as the scorching full-moon.
3. The false understanding of ?month? creates an insurmountable logical absurdity since ?shahid? (witnessed) is in the perfect past tense so this implies that you have to witness the month and then go back in time and fast. Thus even the staunchest Sunnis admit that this passage is talking about witnessing an event (they claim to be the new moon crescent) and not a month. Rex and you can try to change the words of the passage to make it say ?witness the first day of the month? or whatever but this is not what the passage is saying.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 01, 2009, 11:08:17 AMFrom submission.org/fasting-bible.html:
Jeremiah 36:6. "Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities." Here we find a definite practice of fasting. The following verses will show that this is not just a day of fasting, but precisely a month. More detail on this day of fasting is given in verse nine: "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
Indeed, God did not lie when he said:
2:183 O you who acknowledge, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you that perhaps you may be righteous/aware.
Ayman, do you have any evidence of monotheists having fasted after witnessing the "moon of scorching heat"?? Do you have ANY evidence? I showed you my evidence for the real Ramadan - not the fabricated, one-third "Ramadan" of yours. Are you still going to reject the real Ramadan, and not fast for a full month - not just your lousy 10 days?
This is just some ignorant crap as typical from Submission.org. The fast in the Bible is prescribed as one day and not a whole month. If you believe in the Bible then you might as well go ahead and idolize Jesus. An example of a Jewish fast is that of Taanit Bkhorot which happens on the day before the full-moon. Also, the 9th month of the Hebrew Calendar is Kislev which occurs in the November-December timeframe.
There is no evidence of a month called Ramadan, let alone a 10 day period called Ramadan. I never said that it is a name so you are, as usual, building a strawman. I said that it is a common noun. The burden of proof is on you to show that there was a pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. I know you can?t prove it.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:16:46 PM
Peace Farida,
You don't need a calculation to tell you that the moon cycle is 29-30 days and therefore the first-full-moon after the solstice will ALWAYS be 1-29 days after the solstice even in a MILLION years. It is not my problem that you are not intelligent enough to figure this out without a calculator.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Let me tell you I have mice in my kitchen, each of which outshines you, intelligence-wise . I will give you this though; you are way above me in one respect...you'll never guess. Anyone?... Thaaat's right Arrogance!
Btw. so you do admit that the full lunar cycle is 29 to 30 days whether after the solstice or not. :P
QuotePlease see 17:12. The ONLY way 17:12 can be used to know the number of years is if the year is solar and is measured as the interval between solstices. If you are not intelligent enough to read 17:12 and understand its implications then let me know and I can provide a link to the last post where I explained this.
I would really appreciate if you realised that I am not in the mood to jump from one topic to another so let's just do one at a time. OK?
QuoteWhy do I need to prove that the sectarian Hajj takes place from 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijja? It is also a fact that your sectarian arbitrary restricted ?months? are months 11, 12, and 1 and then you suddenly haphazardly jump to month 7 (Rajab). This is what the people that you blindly follow do. Go ask Guest and Progressive and Rex if you don't believe me. It is an indisputable fact that wild life follow the solar cycle. Thus, they migrate and breed in accordance with the solar cycle, not the lunar cycle. It is not my problem that you are so ignorant that you don't know these basic facts or even your own crap that you are following
No one is asking you to discuss "the sectarian Hajj". We are on free minds discussing free minds-understanding, not YOURS . Btw this wild life preservation seems to be a good excuse for you to mess up everybody's understanding. Even at the expense of killling innocent, unarmed people it is not your concern. Right?
QuoteThe thread is about the timing. Of course, in your arbitrary world nothing is related and nothing makes sense. You brought 9:36-37 into your argument, which have to do with "al-ashhur al-haram", which in turn have to do with "hajj". It is again not my problem that you ignore these basic facts and are not intelligent enough to see a connection. As Is said neither Rex, Guest, Progressive, or you will EVER be able to answer this question:
Yes we would come to hajj too but, for now, let's sort out the basic warning of making no adjustment in order to circumvent the count, which includes adding or substracting the 13th month to get YOUR desired result. Am I right? Course I am!
QuotePlease tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".
I don't need to tell anyone anything you have taken upon yourself to tell, on my behalf in big bold script, despite knowing very well that I DO NO FOLLOW YOUR "traditional arbitrary calendar"
QuoteYou are a hypocrite and a coward. Just get a spine and admit that you don't know the answer. At any rate, thank you for continuing to prove me right with your lame excuses and evasiveness and thank you Rex, Guest and Progressive too for proving me right with your complete silence on this question. Indeed truth destroys falsehood.
:yeah: One more thing; take a piece of soap to to your tongue and scrub it well. Now can we go back to discussing all issues one at a time and progress to final picture in an orderly manner? Please.
:peace:
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex,
Wait I got to take my breath after pronouncing your name.
OK, let?s continue. :)
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 01, 2009, 09:52:45 AM9:37 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit a year and they forbid a year, to agree to (the) term (that) God prohibited, so they permit what God prohibited, and (the) evil (of) their deeds was beautified for them, and God does not guide the people the disbelieving.
Exactly, they
permit a year and they forbid a year,
permit a year and they forbid a year, and so on. The passage is talking about alternating a practice by doing it one year and not doing it another. This results from not following 9:36. This means that the problem in 9:37 results from not counting EXACTLY 12 ?shahr? every year, out of which 4 are inviolable.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 01, 2009, 09:52:45 AMFull Moon Makkah, Saudi Arabia
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2013&n=151
2013 23-Jun 2:33 PM daytime
2016 20-Jul 1:57 AM
28 days difference end date included
Why did you deliberately not show 2014 and 2015? Because you know that the difference from a year to a year and so on is NEVER a lunar cycle or even close to it. If you were honest then you would have shown the whole data. Also, even if you go a million years, the scorching full-moon will always be in early summer (1-29 days after the summer solstice).
On the other hand, you can NEVER answer the following according to 9:36-37:
1. You arbitrarily POSTPONE one of your supposed restricted months (Rajab) for six months after the other 3.
2. Your restricted period moves around all over the year.
3. You violate 9:36-37 and 17:12 which clearly indicates that the year is solar by counting 12.3 months in a year and not EXACTLY 12.
4. You will also never be able to answer how your arbitrary so-called Hajj from 8 to 13 of Dhu AlHijjah is timed using the crescents as per 2:189.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 01, 2009, 09:52:45 AMHow do you fast a full moon?
Please learn to read. I already answered this here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg218453#msg218453
The Arabic third person masculine pronoun "hu", consistently with the preceding "hu" refers back to "the abstinence":
2:183. O you who believe, the abstinence has been decreed for you like it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
2:184. A few days and if any of you is ill or traveling, then a count of different days; and as for those who tolerate it (with difficulty), they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you abstain it is better for you if you knew.
2:185. A scorching full-moon, is when the great reading was descended; as a guide to the people and a clarification from the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever from you witnessed the full-moon, then he shall abstain it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then a count of different days. The god wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and complete the count, and glorify the god for what he has guided you, that you may be thankful.It is normal in the Arabic of the great reading that pronouns can refer to something which was mentioned in a prior verse. For example, the pronoun "hiya" at the end of 74:31 refers to "saqar" all the way back in 74:26.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 01, 2009, 09:52:45 AMHow do you see a full moon with poor vision or if blind?
How do you see a full moon if living in cloudy weather?
It is not my problem that you are not intelligent enough to see that the words ?man shahid minkum? (whoever from you witnessed) imply that some from you will not witness. Otherwise, saying ?whoever from you? is completely redundant if everyone just fasts without witnessing anything.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 05:06:42 PMLet me tell you I have mice in my kitchen, each of which outshines you, intelligence-wise . I will give you this though; you are way above me in one respect...you'll never guess. Anyone?... Thaaat's right Arrogance!
Btw. so you do admit that the full lunar cycle is 29 to 30 days whether after the solstice or not. :P
I would really appreciate if you realised that I am not in the mood to jump from one topic to another so let's just do one at a time. OK?
No one is asking you to discuss "the sectarian Hajj". We are on free minds discussing free minds-understanding, not YOURS . Btw this wild life preservation seems to be a good excuse for you to mess up everybody's understanding. Even at the expense of killling innocent, unarmed people it is not your concern. Right?
Yes we would come to hajj too but, for now, let's sort out the basic warning of making no adjustment in order to circumvent the count, which includes adding or substracting the 13th month to get YOUR desired result. Am I right? Course I am!
I don't need to tell anyone anything you have taken upon yourself to tell, on my behalf in big bold script, despite knowing very well that I DO NO FOLLOW YOUR "traditional arbitrary calendar" :yeah: One more thing; take a piece of soap to to your tongue and scrub it well. Now can we go back to discussing all issues one at a time and progress to final picture in an orderly manner? Please.
You have no choice. You can't answer and you will NEVER answer
even if you wanted to. I know it and you know it. So you are screaming mad and making all this noise to divert people's attention from this reality.
BTW, you might want to learn something from your mice because even mice are intelligent enough to follow the solar cycle and know that the fully lunar calendar is completely uselss (and get an exterminator because mice are not good for your family's health).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Can some body please tell me how to paste an Microsoft object (image/picture) in a post. I tried the image icon but didn't work. The text pane will not accept the object. If you know, please give me the steps. Sorry for posting this help request on this thread. Thank you in advance.
Quote from: guest on September 01, 2009, 06:10:07 PM
Peace,
Can some body please tell me how to paste an Microsoft object (image/picture) in a post. I tried the image icon but didn't work. The text pane will not accept the object. If you know, please give me the steps. Sorry for posting this help request on this thread. Thank you in advance.
Peace Guest
Apparently you need to witness it first ;D
Peace
Hope
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 01, 2009, 06:10:07 PMCan some body please tell me how to paste an Microsoft object (image/picture) in a post. I tried the image icon but didn't work. The text pane will not accept the object. If you know, please give me the steps. Sorry for posting this help request on this thread. Thank you in advance.
1. Save your image as a GIF or JPEG.
2. Upload to an image sharing site such as:
http://tinypic.com/
3. Paste the URL in an "img" tag.
I hope this helps (hopefully the picture has the answer to how your Hajj on 8th-13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah is timed using the crescents as per 2:189).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 05:34:34 PM
Peace Farida,
You have no choice. You can't answer and you will NEVER answer even if you wanted to. I know it and you know it. So you are screaming mad and making all this noise to divert people's attention from this reality.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
You want me to discuss with you the feast style Hajj on this thread before we fininsh with the subject of the month/moon of fasting :pr Dr Ayman can't see further than preserving the wild life and devouring poor animals during Hajj that's all. Oh sorry I forgot about the ten days fast, provided it's not cloudy and you are able to see. You are obviously not blind given that blind people seem to have a sixth sense whereas you, apparently, have no sense.
Quote(and get an exterminator because mice are not good for your family's health).
What about preserving the wild life ??? :o
:peace:
Quote from: hope4 on September 01, 2009, 06:34:21 PM
Peace Guest
Apparently you need to witness it first ;D
Peace
Hope
Not witness but "witnessed"(Past Tense) Shahr.
:hmm Isn't it silly that often you get an announcement card for the birth of an infant, the teany weany new arrival, not much different from other babies, all babies look the same.
A cleaver idea is that the proud parents should wait till the child reaches full age, burning with desire just like a "full scorching moon"=Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous
:peace:
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 08:10:43 PMYou want me to discuss with you the feast style Hajj on this thread before we fininsh with the subject of the month/moon of fasting :pr Dr Ayman can't see further than preserving the wild life and devouring poor animals during Hajj that's all. Oh sorry I forgot about the ten days fast, provided it's not cloudy and you are able to see. You are obviously not blind given that blind people seem to have a sixth sense whereas you, apparently, have no sense.
You give yourself too much credit. I don't want to discuss with you. Everyone with even a little bit of intelligence can see that you hypocritically ignore even your own understanding of 2:189 and mindlessly follow your traditional timing on 8th-13th of Dhu-Alhijjah for "hajj" (regardless of what "hajj" means). This is why you will NEVER be able to answer this question:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".The reason why you won't dare to answer is that you know (and everyone with any intelligence knows) that your timing for Hajj and your entire calendar is 100% arbitrary and has nothing to do with the crescents in blatant violation of 2:189. You are not fooling anyone except those who are so lost like you that they can't understand anything from the god's message anyway.
PS: (For the benefit of everyone who uses their god-given brain) The ONLY way that the crescent can be used to time "hajj" is if "hajj" started on the full-moon. There is simply no other way to time a 10 day period using the crescent.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:41:15 PM
Peace Farida,
You give yourself too much credit. I don't want to discuss with you. Everyone with even a little bit of intelligence can see that you hypocritically ignore even your own understanding of 2:189 and mindlessly follow your traditional timing on 8th-13th of Dhu-Alhijjah for "hajj" (regardless of what "hajj" means). This is why you will NEVER be able to answer this question:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".
The reason why you won't dare to answer is that you know (and everyone with any intelligence knows) that your timing for Hajj and your entire calendar is 100% arbitrary and has nothing to do with the crescents in blatant violation of 2:189. You are not fooling anyone except those who are so lost like you that they can't understand anything from the god's message anyway.
PS: (For the benefit of everyone who uses their god-given brain) The ONLY way that the crescent can be used to time "hajj" is if "hajj" started on the full-moon. There is simply no other way to time a 10 day period using the crescent.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I am sorry; your ranting has gone sooo boring that I don't even bother to read your full reply...you are like a kid who, wanting to have the last world, puts his fingers in his ears and, with eyes closed repeats: you you you you you. ::)
You know what; I understand the reason that gave birth to Muslim and Bukhari. It was because of people exactly like you, who were hell bent on destroying the deen, that the need arose for hadiths ... and again a disguised satan, in the form of Abu Huraira, sneaked in there too like in movie the "Devil's advocate".
:peace:
Ps: In fact you have given yourself too much credit in believing that you can replace the Prophet.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
Exactly, they permit a year and they forbid a year, permit a year and they forbid a year, and so on. The passage is talking about alternating a practice by doing it one year and not doing it another. This results from not following 9:36. This means that the problem in 9:37 results from not counting EXACTLY 12 ?shahr? every year, out of which 4 are inviolable.
Not counting is called skipping which you are doing with your 13th full moon called no-name.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 05:15:20 PMWhy did you deliberately not show 2014 and 2015? Because you know that the difference from a year to a year and so on is NEVER a lunar cycle or even close to it. If you were honest then you would have shown the whole data. Also, even if you go a million years, the scorching full-moon will always be in early summer (1-29 days after the summer solstice).
To show your kill season drifts; kill them until June 23 in 2013 then kill them until July 20 in 2016.
Do animal mating habits drift by a lunar month every 3 years?
Likewise all the verses drift in hot moon, as men who swear away their wives start fasting immediately not next full moon.
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
On the other hand, you can NEVER answer the following according to 9:36-37:
1. You arbitrarily POSTPONE one of your supposed restricted months (Rajab) for six months after the other 3.
2. Your restricted period moves around all over the year.
3. You violate 9:36-37 and 17:12 which clearly indicates that the year is solar by counting 12.3 months in a year and not EXACTLY 12.
4. You will also never be able to answer how your arbitrary so-called Hajj from 8 to 13 of Dhu AlHijjah is timed using the crescents as per 2:189.
No, I count exactly 12 and nothing to do with 365.242199 days in a year, impossible to have .242199 days.
Last year you were ranting about full moon illusions and having a big debate and now it's a feast to entice people to spend $2,000 for flight and hotel so they can get a free $5 meal listen to your nonsense. If you want to discuss hajj drop your contradictory hot moon and apologize to people for misleading them and accept the clear evidence of PERF 558 and history.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 05:15:20 PMPlease learn to read. I already answered this here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg218453#msg218453
The Arabic third person masculine pronoun "hu", consistently with the preceding "hu" refers back to "the abstinence":
2:183. O you who believe, the abstinence has been decreed for you like it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
2:184. A few days and if any of you is ill or traveling, then a count of different days; and as for those who tolerate it (with difficulty), they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you abstain it is better for you if you knew.
2:185. A scorching full-moon, is when the great reading was descended; as a guide to the people and a clarification from the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever from you witnessed the full-moon, then he shall abstain it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then a count of different days. The god wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and complete the count, and glorify the god for what he has guided you, that you may be thankful.
It is normal in the Arabic of the great reading that pronouns can refer to something which was mentioned in a prior verse. For example, the pronoun "hiya" at the end of 74:31 refers to "saqar" all the way back in 74:26.
Wrong both cases?
74:31 it (Qur?an) is not except a reminder to the human (illa thikra lilbashari)
6:90 it (Qur?an) is except a reminder to the creations altogether (illa thikra lilAAalameena)
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
It is not my problem that you are not intelligent enough to see that the words ?man shahid minkum? (whoever from you witnessed) imply that some from you will not witness. Otherwise, saying ?whoever from you? is completely redundant if everyone just fasts without witnessing anything.
No, you definitely have issues; not intelligent means you are calling me and others that disproved your hot moon fantasy stupid -- so everyone living in cloudy weather, stuck indoors, in prison or without a window to see the full-moon which pops for a moment at all hours and anyone with poor vision or the blind don?t fast.
Ever think it simply means those who make the ?intention? -- faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu?
Hope you abandon the Bad Moon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYnySGM9dQA&
Peace upon you,
N
Salam all,
It will be nice if we kept civil in our exchanges...
Now Ayman you have hit on something good with the solstice idea combined with the moon cycles.
Layth however argues that the month of Ramadan starts at the beginning of the winter Solstice, and he gave an interesting argument too.
You base your argument on breaking down the word Ramadan and rooting out the meaning scorching heat.
Well I have another more obvious meaning (as I come from an area where the arabic was very close to that of the arabs in the time of the prophet in North Africa, where the children of Hassan fled persecution from their "brethren" in Syria and the Jazeerah)-
Ramadan = Ashen (from Ramad = Ash)
like ashes - dull silver, a colour seen of the moon in winter.
So here we go one could combine this with Layth angle and put Ramadan at the end of December, from the winter solstice beginning.
Of course if I were to be cynical I would prefer this, as Ramadan in winter will be easier to fast :), but joke aside, we need more evidence than just names.
But I am certain, something will turn up, Allah will get the truth out, but we must keep an open mind, and expect it, and this means stop acting like what we say is written in stone.
God bless.
Nabster
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMNot counting is called skipping which you are doing with your 13th full moon called no-name.
You can only count 12 so you have to skip the 13th. You are also giving me too much credit since it is the god who made the moon cycle, including the full-moon, so it is not "mine".
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMTo show your kill season drifts; kill them until June 23 in 2013 then kill them until July 20 in 2016.
It is ALWAYS in early summer, whether you like it or not. On the other hand, how about your arbitrary nonsense timing which drifts all over the place and even within the same year you have 3 months together and then Rajab floating all by itself? As usual, you can't answer.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMDo animal mating habits drift by a lunar month every 3 years?
Animal mating and birthing habits are in line with the seasons. The timing for the restriction will always be from early summer to early fall. On the other hand, no animal gives birth in the summer and gives birth earlier by 11 days every year until about a dozen years later it gives birth in the winter per your nonsense.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMLikewise all the verses drift in hot moon, as men who swear away their wives start fasting immediately not next full moon.
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
You are ignorantly mistranslating. The word "siyam" is a noun not a verb.
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMNo, I count exactly 12 and nothing to do with 365.242199 days in a year, impossible to have .242199 days.
No you count 12.3 in a 17:12 solar year. As for the rest of your nonsense you are clearly lost and thus you can't answer:
1. You arbitrarily POSTPONE one of your supposed restricted months (Rajab) for six months after the other 3.
2. Your restricted period moves around all over the year.
3. You will also never be able to answer how your arbitrary so-called Hajj from 8 to 13 of Dhu AlHijjah is timed using the crescents as per 2:189.You skip these facts because you know that your timing is nonsensical and arbitrary and you have no answer.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMLast year you were ranting about full moon illusions and having a big debate and now it's a feast to entice people to spend $2,000 for flight and hotel so they can get a free $5 meal listen to your nonsense. If you want to discuss hajj drop your contradictory hot moon and apologize to people for misleading them and accept the clear evidence of PERF 558 and history.
You can't even read PERF 558. Please show where the word "hijri" occurs in PERF 558.
As for spending $2,000 for flight and hotel you don't need to spend that to go to a harvest feast where you witness benefits and remember the god on livestock and eat from it and feed the poor. Remember that the "house" as per 22:26 is any place where no partners are set with the god and not the pagan circus in Mecca. As for nonsense, say this to yourself when you spend your $2,000 for flight and hotel so that you can dress in a towel and kiss and fondle a worthless stone set in a vagina-shaped enclosure and mindlessly spin around a worthless cube to satisfy your pagan fetishes.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMWrong both cases?
74:31 it (Qur?an) is not except a reminder to the human (illa thikra lilbashari)
6:90 it (Qur?an) is except a reminder to the creations altogether (illa thikra lilAAalameena)
Go learn Arabic and more importantly logic. The word "quran" is masculine while " هِيَ " in 74:31 is feminine (referring to the feminine "saqar") while in 6:90 " هُوَ " is masculine referring to the "quran". You are in way over your head and this entire discussion is clearly beyond your intellectual capacity if you can't even grasp those basic concepts. You are sounding more and more like ignorant 19ers who also confuse the feminine " عَلَيْهَا " (on it) in 74:30 as talking about the masculine "quran" and not the feminine "saqar". (not surprising since they too believe and blindly follow your manmade arbitrary traditional calendar by the way and they even made a Code for it as Progressive1993 can show you: http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdestiny.htm ).
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 01:13:29 AMNo, you definitely have issues; not intelligent means you are calling me and others that disproved your hot moon fantasy stupid -- so everyone living in cloudy weather, stuck indoors, in prison or without a window to see the full-moon which pops for a moment at all hours and anyone with poor vision or the blind don?t fast.
Ever think it simply means those who make the ?intention? -- faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu?
Hope you abandon the Bad Moon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYnySGM9dQA&
You are dreaming up your own scripture because 2:185 doesn't say "those who make the intention". Instead of wasting your energy in dreaming up excuses for the 100% manmade and arbitrary traditional timing, try to follow the timing based 100% on the great reading. Others such as Layth and Anwar have reached a different conclusion than me based on the great reading. It doesn't matter if you also reach a different or even a wrong conclusion. Just base it 100% on the great reading and not on desperately trying to justify what you found your forefathers doing. As for "not intelligent", there is no passage in the great reading that says that those who try to understand based 100% on the great reading are not intelligent but there are many passages that describe as not intelligent those who blindly follow traditions like cattle.
2:170.
واذا قيل لهم اتبعوا ما انزل الله قالوا بل نتبع ما الفينا عليه اباءنا اولو كان اباؤهم لا يعقلون شيئا ولا يهتدون
25:44.
ام تحسب ان اكثرهم يسمعون او يعقلون ان هم الا كالانعام بل هم اضل سبيلا
7:179.
ولقد ذرانا لجهنم كثيرا من الجن والانس لهم قلوب لا يفقهون بها ولهم اعين لا يبصرون بها ولهم اذان لا يسمعون بها اولئك كالانعام بل هم اضل اولئك هم الغافلون
It doesn't matter what conclusion you reach as long as your starting point is not trying to justify traditions. It is entirely your choice, stupid or intelligent?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace theNabster,
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 02:01:39 AMIt will be nice if we kept civil in our exchanges...
Thanks for the reminder. May the god give me patience.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 02:01:39 AMNow Ayman you have hit on something good with the solstice idea combined with the moon cycles.
All good comes from the god. Many people contributed to this understanding and hit on good things. Even those who are against this understanding have inadvertently helped to solidify it and further discredit the traditional timing. The solstice idea is based on 17:12.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 02:01:39 AMLayth however argues that the month of Ramadan starts at the beginning of the winter Solstice, and he gave an interesting argument too.
I had posted a quick summary of the various theories some 70 pages ago:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
In there, I explain why I don't agree with Layth's timing. However, I am open to agree if he can bring more evidence that shows that his timing is more in line with the great reading.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 02:01:39 AMYou base your argument on breaking down the word Ramadan and rooting out the meaning scorching heat.
Well I have another more obvious meaning (as I come from an area where the arabic was very close to that of the arabs in the time of the prophet in North Africa, where the children of Hassan fled persecution from their "brethren" in Syria and the Jazeerah)-
Ramadan = Ashen (from Ramad = Ash)
like ashes - dull silver, a colour seen of the moon in winter.
So here we go one could combine this with Layth angle and put Ramadan at the end of December, from the winter solstice beginning.
Although they sound similar in English, the Arabic word "ramad" for ash is actually not the same as "ramaDh" for scorching. The first is spelled with a Dal and the second is spelled with a Dhad. They are two different roots and meanings.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 02:01:39 AMOf course if I were to be cynical I would prefer this, as Ramadan in winter will be easier to fast :), but joke aside, we need more evidence than just names.
Exactly. Names are meaningless and anyone can arbitrarily call anything a certain name. The correct understanding is not arbitrary but connects everything such as "hajj", fasting, hunting restriction, etc. and automatically makes them fall into place. So far, only the "scorching full-moon" understanding does that.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 02:01:39 AMBut I am certain, something will turn up, Allah will get the truth out, but we must keep an open mind, and expect it, and this means stop acting like what we say is written in stone.
I agree. All we can do is follow the best understanding based 100% on the great reading. Right now the "scorching full-moon" understanding is the best available and it is based 100% on the great reading. If a better understanding that is also based 100% on the great reading arises in the future then I am all for it. But the best understanding will never come out from trying to justify the 100% arbitrary traditional calendar and fantacizing to be following the messenger while ignoring the message and following arbitrary manmade traditions.
Peace,
Ayman
Bro Ayman, Salam,
and thank you for the distinction between ramad and ramadh.
my "arabic" has become very rusty as i rarely use it for apart from reading the Quran,
my two main other languages being french and english.
It is sad because as I said I was brought up among people who spoke pristine sahraoui
arabic (also known as sharif arabic in north africa).
Indeed I followed the development of your ideas since I joined free-minds since 2003.
In fact joining free-mind was as a result of a prayer to The God from me.
I have been very lucky though because I never felt an urge to study or get near the hadith.
To summarise, I think in my opinion you are very close to the correct answer regarding the positioning of Ramadan,
and the way the months fall into place when The Prophet realigned them onto a luni-solar calendar which
they were not following, however, since they (the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades
forward (2 or more), they argued the opposite and said that The Prophet actually re-instated a pure lunar calendar.
I do believe that the lunar calendar was instated after the death of the prophet as an act of reversal into idolatry (Moon God
connection), akin to the other pagan customs such as the Cube and black stone and pagan rituals in Makkah...
Makkah existed, but it certainly was not the Makkah of today, it was Petra (Petra is a roman name, it is a nabatean/arabic town, so what was its arabic name?), and it is referred to in the Quran.
Jerusalem contains the Ka'aba.
It all fits as part of the conspiracy, so for those who are worried about Lunar Ramadan being destroyed, we have no foundation to start with, apart from the Quran that is, so what are you on about?
May The God make us Peace Makers and Reasonable in our endeavours and not shirk from the Truth even if we think it is painful.
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 11:30:08 PM
Ps: In fact you have given yourself too much credit in believing that you can replace the Prophet.
Salaam farida :)
In fact, Ayman is repeating the hadith of the prophet, which is: They (the crescents) are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for (the affairs of) people, and for hajj. (source: 2:189). You are the one who refuses to acknowledge this very "sahih" hadith or discuss it. ;D
Refusing to discuss it because it's about hajj is no excuse, since the discussion is about a shahr of the "Islamic" calender, and the two issues are very much linked.
BTW, why didn't the quraan tell us the name of the month for hajj? And why, in this verse (2:189) there's no mention of "Ramadan" if it has to do with "crescents"?
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AM
Bro Ayman, Salam,
and thank you for the distinction between ramad and ramadh.
my "arabic" has become very rusty as i rarely use it for apart from reading the Quran,
my two main other languages being french and english.
It is sad because as I said I was brought up among people who spoke pristine sahraoui
arabic (also known as sharif arabic in north africa).
Indeed I followed the development of your ideas since I joined free-minds since 2003.
In fact joining free-mind was as a result of a prayer to The God from me.
I have been very lucky though because I never felt an urge to study or get near the hadith.
To summarise, I think in my opinion you are very close to the correct answer regarding the positioning of Ramadan,
and the way the months fall into place when The Prophet realigned them onto a luni-solar calendar which
they were not following, however, since they (the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades
forward (2 or more), they argued the opposite and said that The Prophet actually re-instated a pure lunar calendar.
Peace theNabster,
It's always good to see the original members of the free-minds coming to rescue Ayman. However we on this thread are not interested in your Arabic background, your upbringing, your prayers or your luck.
We expect evidence that; 1. The Prophet realigned ?them? onto a luni-solar calendar
2. (the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades forward (2 or more),
Any study or article to backup would do, even like the one quickduck produced on behalf of Ayman in his Reply #1246 on: August 28, 2009, 07:55:03 PM ?page 84 ::)(reminded me of Bush coming up with his explanation for the? I wrack? war) I would love to make mincemeat out of likes of Ben Abrahamson and Joseph Katz :voodoo:
QuoteI do believe that the lunar calendar was instated after the death of the prophet as an act of reversal into idolatry (Moon God
connection), akin to the other pagan customs such as the Cube and black stone and pagan rituals in Makkah...
Makkah existed, but it certainly was not the Makkah of today, it was Petra (Petra is a roman name, it is a nabatean/arabic town, so what was its arabic name?), and it is referred to in the Quran.
I do believe = just your opinion
QuoteJerusalem contains the Ka'aba
It all fits as part of the conspiracy, so for those who are worried about Lunar Ramadan being destroyed, we have no foundation to start with, apart from the Quran that is, so what are you on about
I have come across few studies which points to the political and financial interests involved in the conspiracy to shift Ka'aba away from Jerusalem and I earnestly pray for that day when I can go to Jerusalem for my Hajj without any hindrance. :pr
QuoteMay The God make us Peace Makers and Reasonable in our endeavours and not shirk from the Truth even if we think it is painful.?
:handshake:
Quote from: Samia on September 02, 2009, 06:54:26 AM
Salaam farida :)
In fact, Ayman is repeating the hadith of the prophet, which is: They (the crescents) are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for (the affairs of) people, and for hajj. (source: 2:189). You are the one who refuses to acknowledge this very "sahih" hadith or discuss it. ;D
Refusing to discuss it because it's about hajj is no excuse, since BTW, why didn't the quraan tell us the name of the month for hajj? And why, in this verse (2:189) there's no mention of "Ramadan" if it has to do with "crescents"?
Salaam and welcome back :&
Thank you for your input Samia, I am sure Ayman would appreciate it. ;) :D
:peace:
Ps:
Quotethe discussion is about a shahr of the "Islamic" calender, and the two issues are very much linked.
Please read my Reply #1297 on: August 31, 2009, 02:31:11 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you :hmm
Peace Ayman,
First I thank you for providing the tip on pasting image on this post. Thanks!
QuoteQuote from Ayman, Reply #1 on: November 20, 2004, 03:56:18 PM: ?Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal.?
Let?s analyze the contradictions in this one simple sentence of Ayman.
The full moon around summer solstice is not special. The moon?s orbit is fixed by the God. It follows the same path since its creation. This is a verifiable scientific fact. Ayman is contradicting this fact by suggesting that the moon has two paths: one for summer solstice and a second one for rest of the year. This is a misleading statement. Even worst, he is contradicting the Quranic verse 55:5 - The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.
Ayman, our brains are not wired to perceive solstice full-moons as larger than normal. Our brain does not play any trick on us. It depicts what the eyes see. Many don?t understand what is going on. I will explain the situation to you. Even though it is you job to explain the situation to us since you are the author.
The combined effects of orbital eccentricity and the Sun's tides result in a substantial difference in the apparent size and brightness of the Moon at perigee and apogee. Extreme values for perigee and apogee distance occur when perigee or apogee passage occurs close to new or full Moon, and long-term extremes are in the months near to Earth's perihelion passage (closest approach to the Sun, when the Sun's tidal effects are strongest) in the first few days of January. Here is a link to a picture to demonstrate bigger and brighter moon in the winter season (NH). I am referring to the second picture only and nothing else.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/08jan_bigmoon2009.htm
At apogee, the moon is approximately 406,500 km away from earth with an apparent diameter of about 29.5' whereas, at perigee, it is approximately 356,500 km away and is characterized with an apparent diameter of about 33.6'. This difference of 50,000 km between apogee and perigee leads to the dramatic change in the apparent diameter. Also, don?t forget an airplane at 40,000 ft looks smaller than when it is at 10,000 ft or on ground. This effect applies to the moon situation as well.
I hope you noticed the snow in the picture which does not happen in the summer. The brightest of the bright moon happens around January timeframe because the Earth is closest to the sun at this time. Therefore, your theory of huge full moon at summer solstice as the clear marker is false. Please repent and start your fast now.
QuoteQuote from Ayman, Reply #1307 on: Yesterday at 03:50:16 AM: ? Peace Guest and others blindly following the arbitrary sectarian calendar,
As expected, you have evaded answering this question and none of the sectarians on this thread could help you:
Please tell everyone how your traditional arbitrary calendar uses the crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".
You will NEVER be able to answer because just like everything else in your manmade useless unintelligent system, your timing for "hajj" is 100% arbitrary and it neither starts nor ends with the crescent.?
Ayman, it is your job to defend your theory. You shouldn?t be asking us any questions rather telling us how 2:189 justifies your theory. This is bad logic.
Clearly the verse 2:189 says that the moon is the timing device and NOT THE SUN. Thus, we have lunar timing for Hajj and counting years.
I don't agree with your translation but will use it to disprove your theory.
Commonsense would dictate that start of the moon (new moon crescent) trigger the Hajj event and ends in crescent moon. Begin Hajj with beginning moon. Can it get any simpler than that? You are beating around the bush when you go from full moon (not a crescent moon) to another stage of the moon. Full moon is not considered crescent moon thus you are violating your own definition. Your concept is equivalent to entering a house from back door because the full moon is going back to its new moon stage again. Please stop disobeying the God?s commandments.
Here is a tip for you: the moon is a closed loop system and the sun is a closed loop system. It is impossible to bring them together which you are attempting to do, foolishly. It is not like an electronic circuit in which you can couple energy from one loop to create another loop that is in synch with the other. You don?t have that flexibility here. An analogy that fit well is: you have one foot on moon another feet on sun and forcing them to synch. And this is unwise and dangerous.
I don't understand a logical absurdity in this thread. That is if Aymans theory is false, the traditional theory becomes true.
The question remains, why is Ramadan the ninth month of the count and when does your count begin? When is the beginning of the year?
Quote from: Rami on September 02, 2009, 09:01:54 AM
I don't understand a logical absurdity in this thread. That is if Aymans theory is false, the traditional theory becomes true.
Peace Rami
I thought you were the prodigy yet I see you falling into the traditional theory trap. :nope:
QuoteThe question remains, why is Ramadan the ninth month of the count and when does your count begin? Where is the beginning of the year?
Please read my Reply #1297 on: August 31, 2009, 02:31:11 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you :hmm
:peace:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 03:33:37 AM
Peace Vivek,
Basically, witnessing "shahr ramadhan" means witnessing the scorching full-moon. Per 2:184-185, when we witness the scorching full moon we abstain the abstinence for the complete count (10 days) of a few days (3-10 days).
Why is it 10 days? Why not exactly one day?
Is it because the full-moon appears so for about 10 days to our sight?
Isn't full-moon only for a single day scientifically?
Why is it 3-10 days but not from the 1st day of the full-moon?[/quote]
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 03:33:37 AM
The scorching full-moon is the full-moon after the summer solstice. The interval between solstices is how years are determined as per 17:12. The lunar cycle is kept in sync with the solar cycle by counting exactly 12 full-moons in the solar year (as per 9:36). Thus, we would skip the occasional 13th full-moon and this would automatically and effortlessly align the lunar cycle with the solar cycle. It is the perfect system.
I hope this very short summary helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Not only traditional Islam but also major religions(Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism,etc) followed lunar calendar. The solar calendar system is purely a christian concept which all of humanity follow now. Though the Quran mentions both the sun and moon as pointers to the time, considering that all other religions followed lunar calendar, why can't we conclude that Islam too in the time of Muhammad used purely a lunar calendar having nothing to do with solar cycles? I ask this question because I believe all such religions as the revealed ones like Islam and value them all at par.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Quote from: Supernaut on August 30, 2009, 09:39:40 PM
2:185 Shahr ramadan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month...
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/19_SH.htm
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/17_RA.htm
I don't get why some people so DESPERATELY want to believe in the "Islamic calendar". It's the dumbest calendar ever because it serves absolutely no practical purpose. The seasons occur in different months of the "Islamic calendar" over just a few years. Also, it's next to impossible to know the precise date when a month of the "Islamic calendar" starts. Wouldn't an infinitely wise god would give us better ways of determining times of year? Understanding shahr ramadan as the Flower Moon [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Moon#Full_moon_names] is much, much more sensible because the Flower Moon is obvious, it's occurrence is independent of the decisions that were taken by previous generations and there's no evidence that the "Islamic calendar" was instituted by the god. Only those who secretly think the god is stupid can believe that the god instituted the "Islamic calendar" and therefore those who believe It did will probably go to Hell.
And those idiots celebrate Prophet Birth day in different seasons too.http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1562/arrowed.gif
Prophet Muhammad was born Arabia in the city of Mecca on the 12th day of Rabi-ul-Awwal, which was Monday the 20th day of April, 571 A.C. This falls on Saturday May 25, 2002 and fell on June 4th last year (2001). This is also his death anniversary.http://www.amaana.org/prophet/milad.htm
What does hajj have to do with us fasting ramadan? Nothin. :offtopic: What does this and that have to do with anything? This stupid thread been goin on too long. I think its enuff info and differnt views for each to come to their own conclutions and for this thread to be locked or something. Why is it still going on? Back and forth? And my posts alone should be enuff, I think. With verses and correct understanding of them. And either one of the two groups is guided or astray. And it was inspired to me that I am on a straight path. Me and those who follow.
All an all, Ayman is really smart in this area and he has more knowleadge than me and most when it comes to gazing at the stars and all that stuff. But I only follow what quran says and the sun has nothin to do with determining when ramadan is. I also think it is important to know what ayman knows, just like it is important to know what R.K. knew. But I will not reject because of them.
In Allah I place my trust.
Salam farida,
I am not trying to convince anyone, just putting forward what i believe is true from my synthesis of what i read so far in the Quran, and the different articles i came across.
Since it was not my intention to write an essay on this proving or disproving using certain intellectual and/or factual tools, let us say that you either take these as initial hypotheses to prove or disprove, or leave it at that and stay content with the tafseers and works of the likes of Tabari, Shafie, Bukhari you seem content to carry on following.
The Quran is factual data enough for me, and from it you can glean a lot of chronological, archeological, historical, sociological information that more often than not contradict what the sectarians have "cooked" together.
Other sources there are, and we need more work, but there is a lack of resources and will as overall, the sectarians do believe that they have the truth engraved in stone, so they do not feel the need to do any forensic and so on research on the matter, in fact if anything, there was a talk several times in Medinah that they should destroy graves and relics of Sahabah because of the dangers of idolatry (this of course will destroy valuable evidence).
I for one would love to be able to get some fragments of belongings of the prophet dating round about his death and using the latest technology to carbon date, that will shed the light on the time line.
Now the question to ask, is his body even in Medinah as we are led to believe, there was a story that during the Ottoman empire there was an attempt at stealing his body which was foiled by the guardians of his tomb...
So long as Al Saud's culture of secrecy is economical with the truth and uses superstition and intimidation to cover and discourage research in the rational history of our past, we will carry on being ignorant and the weakest mentally among us (the huge majority) will either reject the deen or turn to the "scholar" to fill the void).
No offense, but i usually do not like to engage with abrasive people like you, as you are too agressive in your exchanges for my taste, and i do have a choice with whom i choose to interact in a forum, so kindly count yourself lucky that i replied this time...
May Allah increase us in knowledge, patience, compassion, and provides us with the means to better ourselves
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2:185 and 2:189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2:185. I agree that 2:185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 10:5, 17:12, 97:1, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2:185. 2:185,2:189, and 10:5 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2:189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7:142 and 89:2 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2:184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 9:36 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun.
10:5 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2:185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2:184-185 and 189. From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2:185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2:185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2:184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2:185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat.? O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
:giveup: :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 07:19:24 AM
Salaam and welcome back :&
Thank you for your input Samia, I am sure Ayman would appreciate it. ;) :D
:peace:
Ps:Please read my Reply #1297 on: August 31, 2009, 02:31:11 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you :hmm
Thank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this one:
Quote from: farida on August 31, 2009, 09:31:11 AM
Peace Supernaut,
You are talking of the calendar adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab as he in his wisdom felt it necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates.
For the Quranic approach understand reference A & B below:
A-9:36. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record......
Now if you seriously want to seek the truth then go back to Rex?s post on page 80? Reply #1185 on: August 25, 2009, 05:56:46 AM ?
In response to point 4 quickduck : Now pay attention to a very important question raised by Rex: Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
He again raised that question to Ayman here page 81 ? Reply #1202 on: August 26, 2009, 04:29:40 AM
: Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?
Both ignored this very valid Question which is the core as described in 9:37.[/b]
B- 9:37 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people
What you?re talking of now is your view/opinion and I as a lawyer should ignore it but I have time, as long as you don?t repeat your questions, or else be ready to pay my fee >:D .
I can see that you use http://www.studyquran.co.uk so it may add to everyone?s knowledge if you study the two terms for years used in the Qur?an and share this knowledge with us. I give you a few examples below:
The year 3am( عَامًا) is used for carrying out our obligations to God, and the term Seeneen ( بِالسِّنِينَ ) is also year especially in connection with land,
5:26 Land be out of reach 40 yrs
12:47,48, year of draught and harvesting ,
10:5 The sun and the moon are both used when referring to Sineen
17:12 where for daily seeking bounty from land sineen is used
9:26 wish to live life thousand seeneen,
So clearly there are two types of years in the Quran.
The calendar you or Meteora are referring to is the official calendar, adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab to fix the dates. This did NOT disturb the month of fasting.(just as the ?sunni? in my blue lagoon scenario see?s Ramadan as the 12th month, of his migration yet he fast on same occasion as the rest whose calendar see this month as the 9th)
Good of you to select ?the Flower moon ?from the Wikipedia collection since what, in English, is called the full moon is actually half of the moon cycle. ;)
We do not fast according to your ?stupid" Islamic calendar, we fast according to the cycle started by the prophet per the event when the Qur?an was revealed to him, and he surly knew more than your dictionaries if it was during burning, heat/ blasted by the sun. :yes
As ?guest? pointed out on page 80 ? Reply #1192 on: August 25, 2009, 07:08:49 PM ? The Quran says Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. Nowhere in the Quran have we found that Ayman was given wisdom. On the contrary the Quran warns us about people like you who twist God?s words :hmm
So Alhumdullilah, despite all failed attempts to knock unconscious true Muslims in order to make re-arrangements, the cycle established by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is rock solid and is going on till this day without any discontinued intercalation or frozen commutation. :hail
:peace:
Ps: An example of Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous : The announcement (Cards) proud parents convey about the birth of their infant... :sun:
What drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ سنة " and "3aam/ عام ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting: people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
Most probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ زاهر ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this post 8)
Quote from: anthonywallace on September 02, 2009, 11:12:14 AM
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2:185 and 2:189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2:185. I agree that 2:185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 10:5, 17:12, 97:1, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2:185. 2:185,2:189, and 10:5 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2:189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7:142 and 89:2 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2:184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 9:36 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun.
Ma3doodat10:5 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2:185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2:184-185 and 189. From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2:185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2:185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2:184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2:185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat.? O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
:giveup: :peace:
Ma3doodat--3-- cant you read 3 in Ma3doodat
Quote from: Samia on September 02, 2009, 11:52:26 AM
Thank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this one:What drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ سنة " and "3aam/ عام ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting: people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
Most probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ زاهر". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this post 8)
I?m expecting a storm with thunder bolt :&
Quote from: afridi220 on September 02, 2009, 12:01:13 PM
I?m expecting a storm with thunder bolt :&
Salaam afridid220
Don't worry! Be happy!
I corrected something in my post and would like to do it on what you quoted me of if you don't mind.
Of course you find in "Islamic" literature the story and its opposite. So here is another story about the Islamic calender:
It's said that the Islamic calender was set much earlier, from the first year the prophet immigrated, and so it was logical that he started it with "rabee3 -ul-awal: first grazing", but Omar changed it to make it start with "mu7arram: the restricted month".
In my opinion:
Both stories are baseless, and they are just there to give credit to the whole fiasco of a lunar "Islamic" year. Otherwise, if the firs khalif could change the beginning of a calender, thus moving the time of fasting, how much manipulation took place in this calender?
And should we trust it, or trust God and search in His book?
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 10:47:50 AM
Salam farida,
I am not trying to convince anyone, just putting forward what i believe is true from my synthesis of what i read so far in the Quran, and the different articles i came across.
Since it was not my intention to write an essay on this proving or disproving using certain intellectual and/or factual tools, let us say that you either take these as initial hypotheses to prove or disprove,
Salaam theNabster
I am sorry to say we are long past intial hypothesis, and at a stage where we are not wasting anymore time on unfounded opinions.
Quoteand stay content with the tafseers and works of the likes of Tabari, Shafie, Bukhari you seem content to carry on following.
That is your choice not mine and you can carryon with that by all means
QuoteThe Quran is factual data enough for me, and from it you can glean a lot of chronological, archeological, historical, sociological information that more often than not contradict what the sectarians have "cooked" together.
Absolutely correct.
QuoteOther sources there are, and we need more work, but there is a lack of resources and will as overall,
Yes we need to evaluate all other sources, including Ayman's, and there is no lack of resources, but yes there is a lack of will and the old habit of dependency on others.
Quotethe sectarians do believe that they have the truth engraved in stone, so they do not feel the need to do any forensic and so on research on the matter
They are stuck in paralysis and we can only pray for them to wake up and seek the truth.
Quotein fact if anything, there was a talk several times in Medinah that they should destroy graves and relics of Sahabah because of the dangers of idolatry (this of course will destroy valuable evidence).
Yes I have read this too. Very convenient for the Saudis. Anyway they need the tourist flow so they need to modernise and expand; after all this is the biggest tourist event in the world.
QuoteI for one would love to be able to get some fragments of belongings of the prophet dating round about his death and using the latest technology to carbon date, that will shed the light on the time line.
This shows you desire the truth and, sincerely seeking the truth, we will find it.
QuoteNow the question to ask, is his body even in Medinah as we are led to believe, there was a story that during the Ottoman empire there was an attempt at stealing his body which was foiled by the guardians of his tomb...
So long as Al Saud's culture of secrecy is economical with the truth and uses superstition and intimidation to cover and discourage research in the rational history of our past, we will carry on being ignorant and the weakest mentally among us (the huge majority) will either reject the deen or turn to the "scholar" to fill the void).
I believe that, as the Qur'an prophesied, the record will be laid open and with the modern technology available to us it will happen soon insha?Allah
QuoteNo offense, but i usually do not like to engage with abrasive people like you, as you are too agressive in your exchanges for my taste, and i do have a choice with whom i choose to interact in a forum, so kindly count yourself lucky that i replied this time...
May Allah increase us in knowledge, patience, compassion, and provides us with the means to better ourselves
Since you appear to be a reasonable person following this thread you should know that I too am no friend of abusive language and, as you will see from the quotes following, I only use it in response to abuse.
I am sure you will have noticed that it was Ayman who started calling all who disagreed with him stupid idiots and ignorant, lacking knowledge etc. Such invectives, the sign of a loser, were present in almost every post of his. There is a limit to putting up with such nonsense and adding name calling to that is too much, so I feel he got no more than he rightly deserved.
If you feel I was aggressive with Siki (the Roman Salute) then know that it was in response to this remark : siki on August 25, 2009, 07:06:05 AM
Yes! because the country is PLAGUED with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? His language is no different from Hitler?s hate propaganda against the Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone at all.
And if you felt that I was aggressive with Rami as Reply #1276 on: August 30, 2009, 01:38:33 PM then know too that it was in response to his abhorrent accusation and mocking my fasting, not even understanding the basics of my fasting system. Check it yourself: ? Reply #1241 on: August 28, 2009, 06:08:53 AM page 83.
You seem to be an honest and fair minded person so please advise me; where, was I alone aggressive? Or is it the traditional value that a woman should put up with obnoxious men at the bottom of this accusation?
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 01:39:33 PM
If you feel I was aggressive with Siki (the Roman Salute) then know that it was in response to this remark : siki on August 25, 2009, 07:06:05 AM
Yes! because the country is PLAGUED with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? His language is no different from Hitler?s hate propaganda against the Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone at all.
Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death... :brickwall:
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
I never said such thing. I said it was descended in a scorching full-moon. This is the same as saying it descended in a blazing sun or a cloudy day, etc. Just like all the phases of the moon, the scorching moon is an entirely optical phenomenon.
Day = Period of time
Moon = Object
Who are you trying to fool? You are just trying to save your 'scorching moon' theory at any cost.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
The great reading is about consistency. The great reading was descended in a scorching full-moon is more logical because it is consistent with the rest of the passage and other passages. For example, it is consistent with the following facts:
Maybe that is why the moon was split by Muhammad... the Quran was stuck in it (according to your
wording).
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
1. The great reading was revealed in the night of measure (1 night not a whole month).
Are you telling me that this proves your point?
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
3. The false understanding of “month” creates an insurmountable logical absurdity since “shahid” (witnessed) is in the perfect past tense so this implies that you have to witness the month and then go back in time and fast. Thus even the staunchest Sunnis admit that this passage is talking about witnessing an event (they claim to be the new moon crescent) and not a month. Rex and you can try to change the words of the passage to make it say “witness the first day of the month” or whatever but this is not what the passage is saying.
I have already explained the reason for the usage of the past tense... If you want, I'll post it again for you.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
This is just some ignorant crap as typical from Submission.org.
Ignorant statement.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
The fast in the Bible is prescribed as one day and not a whole month.
There are many fasts described in the Bible - either-or fallacy.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
If you believe in the Bible then you might as well go ahead and idolize Jesus.
That's some screwed up logic you have...logical fallacy again..
Besides, we're talking about the OT part of the Bible... Jesus didnt exist in the time when the OT was published *hint hint*.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
An example of a Jewish fast is that of Taanit Bkhorot which happens on the day before the full-moon. Also, the 9th month of the Hebrew Calendar is Kislev which occurs in the November-December timeframe.
Why are you switching the topic? Did the fact that the people back then - real Submitters - not your Jewish calendar people with the Mishnah and Gemerrah - used a
pure lunar calendar freak you out?
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
There is no evidence of a month called Ramadan
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Jeremiah 36:9 "
And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
let alone a 10 day period called Ramadan
Why are you telling me this? Arent you the one promoting your lousy 10 days of fasting?
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
I never said that it is a name so you are, as usual, building a strawman. I said that it is a common noun. The burden of proof is on you to show that there was a pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. I know you can’t prove it.
The only one posting logically fallacious stuff is you. I presented my proofs to you - now it's your turn. As I can see from the above quote, you have none.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
Peace,
Where? In your posts?!
Anyways, I am looking forward to your reply with A PROOF for your 10 days of fasting after having witnessed a so-called "full moon of scorching heat".
:peace:
It seems my fears are true. The Ramadan of the Quran is impossible to pin-point due to insufficient data. The Quran mentions it once as if its a well known thing. And the ones who know the month are DEAD.
So let us be sectarians for Pete's sake!
Quote from: MUNZIR ALI on September 02, 2009, 01:45:10 PM
Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death... :brickwall:
No problem they have the right to behead you are burned Christians alive in their house, but you don?t have the right to complain.. >:(
The core message of the Quran is actually more simpler than fasting and Ramadan.
It all boils down to this...
Feed the poor and the orphans for God's sake.
Thats it.
The rest is history.
Salam Farida,
Allah bless you and protect you from the evil ones.
We're all in the same boat... just different brain chemicals
prompting us at different levels of concerns... :)
and to be honest I no longer wish to argue nor want to waste
the energy in doing so... our death is close enough...
hopefully, Allah will bless us with some of the answers we are
striving for...
and I do beg to differ, we are never past neither good approaches,
good questions, nor proper answers and solutions...
in fact if you read the Quran closely, we are not only enjoined, encouraged to do so
but even dared many times to do so too, to examine, scrutinise and challenge what is put in front of us, and ponder what happens to those before us, not only as people who believed (if ever in our case), but as humans too...
the tragedy for the sectarians is that as you rightly say, they have stopped following these important commandments, that
by the way the scientific community made it one of their cornerstone in their approach to the observation and understanding of reality,
but even them do get manipulated by their pre-conceived filters and ideas, so you are never careful...
the ways of the devil are numerous, but the best ploy against him is knowledge, not dogma...
Quote from: Samia on September 02, 2009, 11:52:26 AM
Thank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this one:
Salaam Samia,
No Samia there is a lot of new stuff on this thread. Ayman?s Mantra having put people like you off is another matter. But the thread is turning into a black hole and, as a result, all the hard work by the other contributors is being swallowed up. It has now come to a stage where I have to give page link as a reference for my posts to draw attention to our hard work.
QuoteWhat drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ سنة " and "3aam/ عام ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting: people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
)
I feel so honoured that you like my rendition, however, if only you had paid attention to the top part of my post, you would have noticed that it cited 9:36
?The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record.?I?m surprised that this part of my post did not interest you, despite the fact that this is the core of our belief, when it comes to count in the eyes of God as you rightly said that God does not care what "our year. Therefore no adding or skipping just count 12 *shahr/moon/month,.
*Month Etymology -Reply #1213 on: August 27, 2009, 04:29:25 PM page 81 I am sure this too was unnoticed by you
QuoteMost probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ زاهر ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this post 8
No offence Samia but, unlike you, I have little interest these hadiths, however if you like to get your hand on a hadith driven dossier, introduced to us by a very interesting character, quickduck, who was trying to convince us (failing miserably) that , the order of months, as per his understanding, has never been always the same. Get your hands on this find on page 84 quickduck?s Reply #1246 on: August 28, 2009, 07:55:03 PM I am sure you would love this findings.
As always it?s great to hear from you.
:peace:
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 04:34:41 PM
Salam Farida,
Allah bless you and protect you from the evil ones.
We're all in the same boat... just different brain chemicals
prompting us at different levels of concerns... :)
Salaam theNabster
May you be protected too.
Quoteand to be honest I no longer wish to argue nor want to waste
the energy in doing so... our death is close enough...
hopefully, Allah will bless us with some of the answers we are
striving for......
You don?t want to waste more energy on this subject; after the exchange of only a few posts you?ve already lost the will whereas we, on this thread, have been striving to uncover the deceit since last year. We are exhausted but not defeated and that?s what I meant when I said ?I am sorry to say we are long past initial hypothesis, and at a stage where we are not wasting any more time on unfounded opinions.
Quoteand I do beg to differ, we are never past neither good approaches,
good questions, nor proper answers and solutions...
in fact if you read the Quran closely, we are not only enjoined, encouraged to do so
but even dared many times to do so too, to examine, scrutinise and challenge what is put in front of us, and ponder what happens to those before us, not only as people who believed (if ever in our case), but as humans too...
And that is exactly what we have been doing since last Ramadan on this thread challenging Ayman?s distorted hot scorching full moon theory which is a straight violation of 9:36 & 9:37. And how we have been mocked and laughed at for taking this stance!
Quotethe tragedy for the sectarians is that as you rightly say, they have stopped following these important commandments, that
by the way the scientific community made it one of their cornerstone in their approach to the observation and understanding of reality,
but even them do get manipulated by their pre-conceived filters and ideas, so you are never careful...
the ways of the devil are numerous, but the best ploy against him is knowledge, not dogma
I have long since stopped worrying about the sectarians. There was a time when I used to try and change my friends from among them and, to tell you the honest truth, most of the time when I discuss issues with them in light of the Qur?an, they do not disagree with me and agree about the corruptions. But then they say; we are not as brave as you and cannot break away from what we are. So I have left them to their deeds as that is what I understand we are supposed to do; just warn if they do not listen, but for the rest we have no authority over them.
However the greatest tragedy is the case of those who claim to be
?Qur?an Aloners?, those who, on this very site spend endless time mocking the traditionalists, the sunni, the hijjabis etc.! It is such a waste of time and, of course, in stark contravention of the teachings of the Qur?an.
On this very thread a thirteen year old wrote, in response to my post to you,( Reply #1364 on: Today at 06:45:10 PM) ?
Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death..." Is this really the legacy we wish to pass on to our youngsters?! I think not.
35:8
The one whose evil work is adorned and he sees it as being good. God thus misguides whom he wills, and He guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself grieve over them. God is fully aware of what they are doing.God bless
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 06:32:05 PM
Salaam theNabster
May you be protected too. You don?t want to waste more energy on this subject; after the exchange of only a few posts you?ve already lost the will whereas we, on this thread, have been striving to uncover the deceit since last year.
Salam again prolific Sis Farida,
No mind reading please ;)
I wish I were 13 years old matter of fact ;D
As for the division into sects, nothing we can do about it, Allah pointed at it in the Quran,
and it will therefore keep on being so...
However Allah enjoins us very forcefully that we should not divide into sects.
Without the Quran there is no System of Belief, so the ball is clearly in the camp of those
who like distinguishing and separating themselves, each group giving themselves a name,
as Allah says, name they just named... no authority to those whatsoever...
Yes you are right we have enough of our own sins and shortcomings not to worry of those of others,
and as you can witness everyday, Allah hates those groups enough that they keep getting punished
for their blindness.
Blindness is no excuse, lack of judgment is no excuse, tradition is no excuse, being made is no excuse...
when there is the Book manifest in our hands, and most of us choose not to understand it, and instead out of
laziness choose to let others do the thinking for us, even if others are hell bent on our damnation...
and indeed by my last words I do not mean only scholars or mullahs, but also those "enlightened" hate mongers
you refer to who love to create animosity between communities (let's see, sectarian violence, shia versus sunni,
jihadist versus progressives).
My contention is that all these groups are inspired by dark princes of satan's kingdom, and without knowing
they are doing satan's bidding.
This also works by the way with the other religious groups in christianity and judaism, and governments...
Satan's army is now so very well oiled and organised, that I am prompted to think that maybe jihad was meant to mean
fighting the works of satan and his soldiers...
Peace
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 07:33:18 PM
Salam again prolific Sis Farida,
No mind reading please ;)
I wish I were 13 years old matter of fact ;D
As for the division into sects, nothing we can do about it, Allah pointed at it in the Quran,
and it will therefore keep on being so...
However Allah enjoins us very forcefully that we should not divide into sects.
Without the Quran there is no System of Belief, so the ball is clearly in the camp of those
who like distinguishing and separating themselves, each group giving themselves a name,
as Allah says, name they just named... no authority to those whatsoever...
Yes you are right we have enough of our own sins and shortcomings not to worry of those of others,
and as you can witness everyday, Allah hates those groups enough that they keep getting punished
for their blindness.
Blindness is no excuse, lack of judgment is no excuse, tradition is no excuse, being made is no excuse...
when there is the Book manifest in our hands, and most of us choose not to understand it, and instead out of
laziness choose to let others do the thinking for us, even if others are hell bent on our damnation...
and indeed by my last words I do not mean only scholars or mullahs, but also those "enlightened" hate mongers
you refer to who love to create animosity between communities (let's see, sectarian violence, shia versus sunni,
jihadist versus progressives).
My contention is that all these groups are inspired by dark princes of satan's kingdom, and without knowing
they are doing satan's bidding.
This also works by the way with the other religious groups in christianity and judaism, and governments...
Satan's army is now so very well oiled and organised, that I am prompted to think that maybe jihad was meant to mean
fighting the works of satan and his soldiers...
Peace
Wa alaikum salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu brother!
Ahh finally; soo relieved to see someone taking a stance based on the teachings of the Qur?an! God give you strength and resolve to stand up against those who want to erase our deen. As for dividing into sects and groups as Allah says in the Qur;an mankind were one but they fell into groups out of their own desire.
We are already separated in small sects fighting each other and, on top of that, a system of fasting, based on a twisted understanding, designed to fragment what little unity we have been able to muster. The sense of community that comes with sharing our experience of fasting would disappear should the theory Ayman is advocating win through. Not only does it swing, but it is also very different for both hemispheres so in his system we would not even be united with our next door neighbours when it comes to any act of worship. So on this note I bid you good night with these words from our Holy Book:
Say: "I seek refuge with the Lord of the people,"
"The King of the people,"
The god of the people,"
From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
Who whispers into the chests of the people."
:peace:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 02, 2009, 02:37:11 AM
You can only count 12 so you have to skip the 13th. You are also giving me too much credit since it is the god who made the moon cycle, including the full-moon, so it is not "mine".
It is ALWAYS in early summer, whether you like it or not. On the other hand, how about your arbitrary nonsense timing which drifts all over the place and even within the same year you have 3 months together and then Rajab floating all by itself? As usual, you can't answer.
Animal mating and birthing habits are in line with the seasons. The timing for the restriction will always be from early summer to early fall. On the other hand, no animal gives birth in the summer and gives birth earlier by 11 days every year until about a dozen years later it gives birth in the winter per your nonsense.
How illogically absurd; skip count, ignore a whole cycle, and say it's not yours.
Again ? no answer to drifting kill season and everything else drifting by a month. Already stated; global hunting restriction is your fantasy along with "the skipping" to allow the sun to catch up with the moon which is never the case...
36:40 La alshshamsu yanbaghee laha an tudrika alqamara
The sun should not (be) to it that it catches up the moon
Quote from: ayman on September 02, 2009, 02:37:11 AM
You are ignorantly mistranslating. The word "siyam" is a noun not a verb.
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
Let's apply the verse today:
1. Does he commence fasting? YES!
2. Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Quote from: ayman on September 02, 2009, 02:37:11 AM
Go learn Arabic and more importantly logic. The word "quran" is masculine while " هِيَ " in 74:31 is feminine (referring to the feminine "saqar") while in 6:90 " هُوَ " is masculine referring to the "quran". You are in way over your head and this entire discussion is clearly beyond your intellectual capacity if you can't even grasp those basic concepts. You are sounding more and more like ignorant 19ers who also confuse the feminine " عَلَيْهَا " (on it) in 74:30 as talking about the masculine "quran" and not the feminine "saqar". (not surprising since they too believe and blindly follow your manmade arbitrary traditional calendar by the way and they even made a Code for it as Progressive1993 can show you: http://www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdestiny.htm ).
2:170.
واذا قيل لهم اتبعوا ما انزل الله قالوا بل نتبع ما الفينا عليه اباءنا اولو كان اباؤهم لا يعقلون شيئا ولا يهتدون
25:44.
ام تحسب ان اكثرهم يسمعون او يعقلون ان هم الا كالانعام بل هم اضل سبيلا
7:179.
ولقد ذرانا لجهنم كثيرا من الجن والانس لهم قلوب لا يفقهون بها ولهم اعين لا يبصرون بها ولهم اذان لا يسمعون بها اولئك كالانعام بل هم اضل اولئك هم الغافلون
It doesn't matter what conclusion you reach as long as your starting point is not trying to justify traditions. It is entirely your choice, stupid or intelligent?
Hot moon is stupid as are your grammar rules which Qur'an is genderless also called the reminder/remembrance...
16:44 بالبينات والزبر وانزلنا اليك الذكر لتبين للناس مانزل اليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون
With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the reminder to clarify to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance/reminder to the believers.
74:31 وماجعلنا اصحاب النار الا ملائكة وماجعلنا عدتهم الا فتنة للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتاب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمانا ولايرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتاب والمؤمنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكافرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء ومايعلم جنود ربك الا هو وماهي الا ذكرى للبشر
Salam,
Have a look here:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Ramadan
Ramadan Etymology -
"ninth month of the Muslim year," 1595, from Arabic Ramadan (Turk. and Pers. ramazan), originally "the hot month," from ramida "be burnt, scorched" (cf. Heb. remetz "hot ashes, embers"). Due to the Islamic lunar calendar, it passes through all seasons in a cycle of about 33 years, but evidently originally it was a summer month.
but there is also more sinister etymology to Ramadan such as this:
The principle theme of cosmology is creation and everywhere in the ancient world festivals were celebrated on the days of creation, i.e. the days of the sun?s equinox risings. In many ancient nations the new year was celebrated on the spring equinox, for then a new world had emerged out of the darkness of winter. There is in fact a sacred holiday which bears Rama?s name--the Islamic feast known as Ramadan. The word Ramadan is a cognate of Ramazan, or san rama, meaning Holy Sun (Bayley 345). While Ramadan is officially a lunar holiday, it?s etymology shows its meaning, and its time of celebration just after the fall equinox makes a conclusive connection to its solar origin. Ramadan is celebrated on the first new moon after the fall equinox when the fertile earth (fertilized by the sun) has been harvested and its bounty will succor the people?s journey into winter.
Bayley, Harold. Lost Language of Symbolism, Volumes 1 and 2. Whitefish, Montana: Kessinger Publishing Company, 1912.
taken from - http://www.cosmosandlogos.com
Quote from: Rami on September 02, 2009, 01:59:50 PM
It seems my fears are true. The Ramadan of the Quran is impossible to pin-point due to insufficient data. The Quran mentions it once as if its a well known thing. And the ones who know the month are DEAD.
So let us be sectarians for Pete's sake!
Sectarian?
THIS IS TRADITIONAL ISLAM!(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/MJOLNIR_VII/ThisisIslam.png)
Salam Farida, all
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
...introduced to us by a very interesting character, quickduck, who was trying to convince us (failing miserably) that , the order of months, as per his understanding, has never been always the same. Get your hands on this find on page 84 quickduck?s Reply #1246 on: August 28, 2009, 07:55:03 PM I am sure you would love this findings.
As always it?s great to hear from you.
:peace:
1 - I never meant that the PDF research i linked to was infaillible.
2 - After reading it, i found that it was a hadith based research, and thus may contain false statements and/or Valid ones.
3 - I linked to that Research exactly to pionpoint the fact that we SHOULD go back to the only source that's infaillible to start our study from.
4 - it's sad, but everyone noticed that your "actual Ramadan" has no basis in the quran, instead it pops out directly from hadith books, which are as infaillible as the very PDF Research i linked to...
5- Thank you for finding me " an interesting character".. :handshake:
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 08:23:22 PM
Peace Ayman,
Hot moon is stupid as are your grammar rules which Qur'an is genderless also called the reminder/remembrance...
16:44 بالبينات والزبر وانزلنا اليك الذكر لتبين للناس مانزل اليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون
With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the reminder to clarify to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance/reminder to the believers.
74:31 وماجعلنا اصحاب النار الا ملائكة وماجعلنا عدتهم الا فتنة للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتاب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمانا ولايرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتاب والمؤمنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكافرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء ومايعلم جنود ربك الا هو وماهي الا ذكرى للبشر
Are you sure of speaking/understanding arabic ?? is ذكرى the same as ذكر to you ? is هو the same as هي ???
it's never too late to learn, if not too much laziness.
it took me only few months to improve my english drastically that it was Farida who noticed my "almost perfect" English ;).
Peace all,
Quote from: quickduck on September 02, 2009, 10:56:14 PM
Are you sure of speaking/understanding arabic ?? is ذكرى the same as ذكر to you ? is هو the same as هي ???
it's never too late to learn, if not too much laziness.
it took me only few months to improve my english drastically that it was Farida who noticed my "almost perfect" English ;).
No I speaking/understanding zero Arabic; what about you -- what is the correct gender?
4:11
للذكر to the male/masculine مثل alike حظ fortune الأنثيين the two females
54:17
ولقد and We have made يسرنا flexible القران the Quran للذكر to the remembrance فهل so is there من from مدكر a rememberer?
16:44 بالبينات والزبر وانزلنا اليك الذكر لتبين للناس مانزل اليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون
With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the remembrance to clarify to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.
74:31 وماجعلنا اصحاب النار الا ملائكة وماجعلنا عدتهم الا فتنة للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتاب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمانا ولايرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتاب والمؤمنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكافرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء ومايعلم جنود ربك الا هو وماهي الا ذكرى للبشر
74:31 it (Qur?an) is not except a remembrance to the human (illa thikra lilbashari)
هي she is الا not except ذكرى male/masculine
OR
هي it is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the human
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex ,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 11:11:13 PM
No I speaking/understanding zero Arabic; what about you -- what is the correct gender?
4:11
للذكر to the male/masculine مثل alike حظ fortune الأنثيين the two females
54:17
ولقد and We have made يسرنا flexible القران the Quran للذكر to the remembrance فهل so is there من from مدكر a rememberer?
16:44 بالبينات والزبر وانزلنا اليك الذكر لتبين للناس مانزل اليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون
With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the remembrance to clarify to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.
74:31 وماجعلنا اصحاب النار الا ملائكة وماجعلنا عدتهم الا فتنة للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتاب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمانا ولايرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتاب والمؤمنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكافرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء ومايعلم جنود ربك الا هو وماهي الا ذكرى للبشر
74:31 it (Qur?an) is not except a remembrance to the human (illa thikra lilbashari)
هي she is الا not except ذكرى male/masculine
OR
هي it is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the human
Absolute top 10 dumbest post ever..LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
quran = she = هي ????????
Could someone please answer him, i can't stop myself laughin.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
i'll come back later , once i stop
EDIT : sorry, i'm back again :)
you know, your major problem with your arabic reading/understanding is that you completly ignore the arabic vocals .
Yet, someone will tell me that the vocals don't appear in the oldest manuscript, and were added later.
That's because earlier arabs didn't need to write the vocals 'cos they understood from the context which vocal is to be connected to which letter. They even did't put the "dots" on the letters yet they could read and understand what was written.
still nowadays, the arabic newspapers for example, don't use vocals because we (arab speaking people) are very able to figure them out from the context.
the vocals were lately added to the quran specially for people like you, but you keep ignoring them and you focus only on the "root letters" and some ''tradition based" translations.
example N?1 : li ad-dhakari (male/masculine) is not the same as "ad-dhikra" (remembrance) and different from ad-dhikr ( the reminder). although they share the same root : dha-ka-ra
example N?2 : hadatha (happen ) , hadath (event) , had-data ( narrate ) and haadita (accident ) share the same root ح د ث
and they give completly different meanings .
Also, genders (masculine/ feminine ) in arabic grammar is a bit difficult for you to understand because your language doesn't have such grammatical rules. And i agree it's confusing for you...
in the great reading nowhere we find that the quran is treated as feminine (that's what made laugh my head off in your last post ) but always as masculine word . ie : ( [6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry." ....wa ouheya ilayya hadha al qur'ano li undhirakum bihi wa man balagh..
So as you see , "this" (hadha) is masculine whereas the same ''this'' become (hadhihi) when it is feminine.
"a rivederci, e a la proxima lezzione ".
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 03, 2009, 12:34:54 AM
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex ,
Absolute top 10 dumbest post ever..LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
quran = she = هي ????????
Could someone please answer him, i can't stop myself laughin.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
i'll come back later , once i stop
Here is someone for you:
In pre-Islamic times, there is nothing to know about writing Arabic because Arabic was an oral vernacular that was rarely written and it didn't even have a script. Thus, when the great reading was written, the foreign Nabataean Aramaic script was used to write it. This doesn't mean that the Arabs didn't write. They wrote but not in Arabic and only on rare occasions they wrote Arabic and in those rare cases they used foreign scripts to write it. Ref: Reply #858 on:page 58
Salaam
Quote from: quickduck on September 03, 2009, 02:45:19 AM
EDIT : sorry, i'm back again :)
you know, your major problem with your arabic reading/understanding is that you completly ignore the arabic vocals .
Yet, someone will tell me that the vocals don't appear in the oldest manuscript, and were added later.
That's because earlier arabs didn't need to write the vocals 'cos they understood from the context which vocal is to be connected to which letter. They even did't put the "dots" on the letters yet they could read and understand what was written.
still nowadays, the arabic newspapers for example, don't use vocals because we (arab speaking people) are very able to figure them out from the context.
the vocals were lately added to the quran specially for people like you, but you keep ignoring them and you focus only on the "root letters" and some ''tradition based" translations.
example N?1 : li ad-dhakari (male/masculine) is not the same as "ad-dhikra" (remembrance) and different from ad-dhikr ( the reminder). although they share the same root : dha-ka-ra
example N?2 : hadatha (happen ) , hadath (event) , had-data ( narrate ) and haadita (accident ) share the same root ح د ث
and they give completly different meanings .
Also, genders (masculine/ feminine ) in arabic grammar is a bit difficult for you to understand because your language doesn't have such grammatical rules. And i agree it's confusing for you...
in the great reading nowhere we find that the quran is treated as feminine (that's what made laugh my head off in your last post ) but always as masculine word . ie : ( [6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry." ....wa ouheya ilayya hadha al qur'ano li undhirakum bihi wa man balagh..
So as you see , "this" (hadha) is masculine whereas the same ''this'' become (hadhihi) when it is feminine.
"a rivederci, e a la proxima lezzione ".
Salam
Salaam
So you are back to do what Q_student noticed in his Reply #876 on page 59:
Why are you trying to detrack the thread. You derailed it from "Ramadhan " to " Thamud".
:peace:
Quote from: quickduck on September 03, 2009, 12:34:54 AM
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex ,
Absolute top 10 dumbest post ever..LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
quran = she = هي ????????
Could someone please answer him, i can't stop myself laughin.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
i'll come back later , once i stop
Sorry no stock :D
Quote from: quickduck on September 02, 2009, 10:56:14 PM
Salam Farida, all
1 - I never meant that the PDF research i linked to was infaillible.
2 - After reading it, i found that it was a hadith based research, and thus may contain false statements and/or Valid ones.
3. I linked to that Research exactly to pionpoint the fact that we SHOULD go back to the only source that's infaillible to start our study from.
Peace all,
Salaam quickduck,
So guest was right in his Reply #968 on page 65;
The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that Quote5- Thank you for finding me " an interesting character".. :handshake:
Yes not only interesting but a Bush alike, I mean "I wrack" type :bravo:
Quoteit took me only few months to improve my english drastically that it was Farida who noticed my "almost perfect" English ;).
:yay: It was Farida who also noticed Ayman's style :hmm.."almost perfect"
:peace:
Quote from: Meteora on September 02, 2009, 10:36:57 PM
Sectarian?
THIS IS TRADITIONAL ISLAM!
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/MJOLNIR_VII/ThisisIslam.png)
:rotfl: so true!
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 09:34:07 PM
Salam,
Have a look here:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Ramadan
Ramadan Etymology -
"ninth month of the Muslim year," 1595, from Arabic Ramadan (Turk. and Pers. ramazan), originally "the hot month," from ramida "be burnt, scorched" (cf. Heb. remetz "hot ashes, embers"). Due to the Islamic lunar calendar, it passes through all seasons in a cycle of about 33 years, but evidently originally it was a summer month.
but there is also more sinister etymology to Ramadan such as this:
The principle theme of cosmology is creation and everywhere in the ancient world festivals were celebrated on the days of creation, i.e. the days of the sun?s equinox risings. In many ancient nations the new year was celebrated on the spring equinox, for then a new world had emerged out of the darkness of winter. There is in fact a sacred holiday which bears Rama?s name--the Islamic feast known as Ramadan. The word Ramadan is a cognate of Ramazan, or san rama, meaning Holy Sun (Bayley 345). While Ramadan is officially a lunar holiday, it?s etymology shows its meaning, and its time of celebration just after the fall equinox makes a conclusive connection to its solar origin. Ramadan is celebrated on the first new moon after the fall equinox when the fertile earth (fertilized by the sun) has been harvested and its bounty will succor the people?s journey into winter.
Bayley, Harold. Lost Language of Symbolism, Volumes 1 and 2. Whitefish, Montana: Kessinger Publishing Company, 1912.
taken from - http://www.cosmosandlogos.com
Salaam alaikum brother,
Have a look here at Ayman's post where he acknowledges flaws in the available tools:
There is no proof. In fact, quite the opposite, there is plenty of proof that Classical Arabic dictionaries are full of errors and misclassifications. This is why, like any tool, one needs to understand their limitations and biases and use them intelligently and not blindly. One way to use them is to figure out the etymology, which indicates the older meaning that the other meanings were derived from.. Reply #856 on: April 22, 2009, 10:03:52 PM ?page 58
:( When I took the above approach (underlined) to figure out the month etymology, no one pays heed :brickwall:
Page 81:
Since Urdu is nearest to Arabic culturally so let me start with Urdu "Mahina", also called "Mah" and moon too is called "Mah"(Mahjabeen) in Swedish, the word for month is: M?nad (from M?ne=moon) in Icelandic: M?nu? (from M?ni=moon) this knowledge was from native language speakers and then *
I backed it up with http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/month
*Middle English < Old English mōna? < Proto-Germanic *mēnō?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon..
So maybe you can assist us with your knowledge of Arabic if month in Arabic culture is the equivalent of moon too.
Best regards
farida
Salam Farida,
from the way I was brought up, I have as long as I can remember associated twelve months with a solar year,
with the role of the moon to help in subdividing the year into weeks, this is my archetypal programing if you want to call it.
as for etymology it will be better to look into Hebrew, Aramaic, and semitic roots.
by the way when i wrote about lacking resources, i meant proper resources, like government and institutions resources.
I feel envious that so much money is being poured into finding out about the history of ancient Egypt, but nothing much
in the early life of the Prophet Mohamed and the early believers. Look, every time we hear about new discoveries being made
shedding new light on the ways and structures of life of middle ages European communities, scientists keep finding out
that they did not always get their assumptions right even for events that happened not so long ago.
So now, why are the Arabs not curious about hard facts on the life of the people who participated in bringing them
the belief system they claim to be following.
The fact is of course that they probably do not want to know, they want to follow what they fancy, not what they will find
out which will be the truth (most probably unpleasant to leaders), and I guarantee you that a lot of relics have been destroyed just for the purpose not to allow for what is real to be known.
Surely like other cover ups...
Now you can carry on wasting your time arguing with and attacking Ayman, it is a choice, but in the grand scheme of (divine) things, no one can and will rush Allah especially if one follows the wrong course.
If Ayman is right, and the time is right, his view will be espoused.
Look at all the sectarians fighting, they all think they are right, but where are they? and who knows, the Jews might decide to honour the Covenant The God made with them, and they then will be the enlightened ones.
So please do not let that question of unity bother you, unity of what, behind a month? are you serious?
Any unity on unsound foundation (i.e. e.g. based on falsehood) is bound to perish.
13:31 And if there had been a Qur'?n with which mountains could be moved (from their places), or the earth
could be cloven asunder, or the dead could be made to speak (it would not have been other than this
Qur'?n). But the decision of all things is certainly with All?h. Have not then those who believe yet
known that had All?h willed, He could have guided all mankind? And a disaster will not cease to strike
those who disbelieve because of their (evil) deeds or it (i.e. the disaster) settle close to their homes,
until the Promise of All?h comes to pass. Certainly, All?h does not fail in His Promise.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'?n) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness
over all things?
Quote from: quickduck on September 03, 2009, 12:34:54 AM
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex ,
Absolute top 10 dumbest post ever..LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
quran = she = هي ????????
Could someone please answer him, i can't stop myself laughin.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
i'll come back later , once i stop
Do you understand the
OR function what it means?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 02, 2009, 11:11:13 PM
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.
74:31 وماجعلنا اصحاب النار الا ملائكة وماجعلنا عدتهم الا فتنة للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتاب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمانا ولايرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتاب والمؤمنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكافرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشاء ويهدي من يشاء ومايعلم جنود ربك الا هو وماهي الا ذكرى للبشر
هي she is الا not except ذكرى male/masculine (according to Ayman)
OR
هي it is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the human
What you are laughing at is Ayman ascribing a gender to genderless objects which go by different names.
Quote from: ayman on Yesterday at 07:37:11 AMThe word "quran" is masculine while " هِيَ " in 74:31 is feminine (referring to the feminine "saqar")
Here is the correct rendering of the end of 74:31....
هي it is (i.e. Qur'an) الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the humanIt is, the examples and things stated prior to above is Qur'an (i.e. the remembrance/reminder).
Lets cool up the thread with some Ramadan spirit...
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/08/ramadan_2009.html
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/09/observing_ramadan.html
Fast you cronies! :P
Quote from: theNabster on September 03, 2009, 10:53:31 AM
Salam Farida,
from the way I was brought up, I have as long as I can remember associated twelve months with a solar year,
with the role of the moon to help in subdividing the year into weeks, this is my archetypal programing if you want to call it.
as for etymology it will be better to look into Hebrew, Aramaic, and semitic roots.
Salaam alaikum brother,
So I was knocking at the wrong door, no problem.
Quote
So now, why are the Arabs not curious about hard facts on the life of the people who participated in bringing them
the belief system they claim to be following.
The fact is of course that they probably do not want to know, they want to follow what they fancy, not what they will find
out which will be the truth (most probably unpleasant to leaders), and I guarantee you that a lot of relics have been destroyed just for the purpose not to allow for what is real to be known.
Surely like other cover ups...
You envy and worry about Arabs, but to one who wants hard facts you say:
QuoteNow you can carry on wasting your time arguing with and attacking Ayman, it is a choice, but in the grand scheme of (divine) things, no one can and will rush Allah especially if one follows the wrong course.
Now that's not fair brother. Why should only the Arabs be curious and not me and God will see to Ayman and we feel envious about money is being poured into finding out about the history of ancient Egyp other than that we should do nothing just sit back?
QuoteIf Ayman is right, and the time is right, his view will be espoused.
I am sure both will be eroded in the grand scheme as many nations have been destroyed and many, similar to Ayman, have disappeared into thin air.
QuoteLook at all the sectarians fighting, they all think they are right, but where are they? and who knows, the Jews might decide to honour the Covenant The God made with them, and they then will be the enlightened ones
Dear brother the reason we are in this miserable state is that, from among all three faiths God took a covenant, none is honouring that so who ever, from among these faiths, honours the Covenant will be of the enlightened ones.
QuoteSo please do not let that question of unity bother you, unity of what, behind a month? are you serious?
Now brother I can't take your advice because you have one rule for Arabs and another for me. So yes I am very serious about the unity behind the month of Ramadan.
QuoteAny unity on unsound foundation (i.e. e.g. based on falsehood) is bound to perish.
Absolutely!
I do not expect any further response from you as we are obviously on different platforms.
Good luck
Farida
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 03, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
Do you understand the OR function what it means?
What you are laughing at is Ayman ascribing a gender to genderless objects which go by different names.
Quote from: ayman on Yesterday at 07:37:11 AM
The word "quran" is masculine while " هِيَ " in 74:31 is feminine (referring to the feminine "saqar")
Here is the correct rendering of the end of 74:31....
هي it is (i.e. Qur'an) الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the human
It is, the examples and things stated prior to above is Qur'an (i.e. the remembrance/reminder).
Salaam Eid
First: In Arabic there is nothing called "genderless noun". Some nouns may have either gender, and they are very few and well known. Also, in Arabic there is no equivalent to "it". There are only two pronouns: "literally" he and she.
Secondly: ՝ذكرى is remembrance not reminder;and it is a feminine noun. Reminder is ذكر and it is a masculine noun; as in (إنا نزلنا الذكر وإنا له لحافظون ).
Accordingly, (إن هي /it is but ) refers to a feminine noun. Quraan is not a feminine noun, but masculine.Therefore, this (it's but) cannot refer to it.
Peace sister Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2009, 07:43:19 PMSalaam Eid
First: In Arabic there is nothing called "genderless noun". Some nouns may have either gender, and they are very few and well known. Also, in Arabic there is no equivalent to "it". There are only two pronouns: "literally" he and she.
Secondly: ՝ذكرى is remembrance not reminder;and it is a feminine noun. Reminder is ذكر and it is a masculine noun; as in (إنا نزلنا الذكر وإنا له لحافظون ).
Accordingly, (إن هي /it is but ) refers to a feminine noun. Quraan is not a feminine noun, but masculine.Therefore, this (it's but) cannot refer to it.
Before I respond to previous posts chronologically, let me add a small comment to your thoughtful reply. I think what confused Eid is that he assumed that there must be gender agreement between "zikra" and what it describes. There is no such gender agreement in Arabic. Same structure here:
الرجل هو قدوة لإبنه
Literal: The man (masculine) he (masculine) a role model (feminine) for his (masculine) son.
This is not an advice just for Eid but for everyone, we should all be careful and avoid knee-jerk kind responses against things that are unfamiliar to us and instead try to reason and learn patiently.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace theNabster,
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AMand thank you for the distinction between ramad and ramadh. my "arabic" has become very rusty as i rarely use it for apart from reading the Quran, my two main other languages being french and english. It is sad because as I said I was brought up among people who spoke pristine sahraoui arabic (also known as sharif arabic in north africa).
Indeed I followed the development of your ideas since I joined free-minds since 2003.
In fact joining free-mind was as a result of a prayer to The God from me.
I have been very lucky though because I never felt an urge to study or get near the hadith.
To summarise, I think in my opinion you are very close to the correct answer regarding the positioning of Ramadan,
and the way the months fall into place when The Prophet realigned them onto a luni-solar calendar which
they were not following, however, since they (the Arab conspirators) pushed the birth of The Prophet a few decades
forward (2 or more), they argued the opposite and said that The Prophet actually re-instated a pure lunar calendar.
I don't think that the prophet did anything with any calendar. All calendars are manmade. On the other hand, the god provided us with clear cosmic indicators for timing. For the hunting restriction, much like they do today (by assigning Rajab 6 months later), the rejecters alternatively postponed the hunting restriction and didn't have it as continuous. In fact, the rejecters today are even worse than the rejecters of the past. Not only they postpone part of the hunting restriction for 6 months every year (instead of every other year), they also make it float within the year. So they have essentially abrogated the hunting restriction.
The pushing of the date of birth of the prophet was not the result of a conspiracy. It was a result of the natural law of supply and demand. When people abandoned the great reading the demand for traditions and Hadiths that supposedly went back to the prophet greatly increased. This is why many of the Hadith narrators supposedly lived well over a hundred years. They had to be given an incredibly long life by subsequent generations so that the chains of hearsay would reach the prophet. Those same supply and demand forces would also naturally result in the date of birth of the prophet and the entire history of revelation being pushed forward. We actually have physical evidence that the traditional dates are false. Traditionalists contend that the prophet was born in 570CE and his birth year coincided with the year of Abraha?s expedition into Arabia. Fortunately, we have the famous Abraha inscription commemorating his expedition into Arabia. See:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
The date on the inscription translates into 552CE. This is 18 years prior to the traditional dating. So your intuitive assessment of 2 decades is very close. In all likelihood, Umar and all the so-called Sahaba never met the prophet.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AMI do believe that the lunar calendar was instated after the death of the prophet as an act of reversal into idolatry (Moon God connection), akin to the other pagan customs such as the Cube and black stone and pagan rituals in Makkah...
I think that the institution of the lunar calendar was a result of integrating Jewish traditions with pagan traditions of moon reverence. In the Jewish calendar when to do the intercalation was decided by the Rabbinical religious authorities. The Jewish leadership was not going to give up this power and so the best compromise that ensured there was no competition on when to intercalate was for the empire to adopt a lunar calendar without intercalation. This way the Jewish authorities can keep intercalating whenever they felt like it while the Jewish and Islamic months would start and end simultaneously and only the mapping of their names would float.
It is interesting that, as Herbman noted, the start of the new Umar calendar precisely coincides with when the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice was visible. So this pinpoints the point of initial corruption and further confirms the fact that before the corruption the summer solstice marked the start of the year.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AMMakkah existed, but it certainly was not the Makkah of today, it was Petra (Petra is a roman name, it is a nabatean/arabic town, so what was its arabic name?), and it is referred to in the Quran.
Mekkah didn?t exist. The word ?mekkah? is clearly a common noun that means ?destruction? and not the name of any town:
YUSUFALI:
48:24. And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Mekkah after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do. Should be translated as:
48:24. And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do. Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AMJerusalem contains the Ka'aba.
The word ?al-ka?ba? is another common noun that should be translated. The term is commonly used in Arabia in expressions like ?ka?b al-wadi? (the base of the valley) so it simply means ?the base?.
The location of the house is clearly specified in 22:26 and it is not so-called Makkah or Jerusalem.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AMIt all fits as part of the conspiracy, so for those who are worried about Lunar Ramadan being destroyed, we have no foundation to start with, apart from the Quran that is, so what are you on about?
The arbitrary sectarian calendar is already destroyed:
1. Even its staunchest defenders on this thread do not use it for any practical purpose in their daily lives. So it is empirically proven to be the calendar of the hypocrites.
2. Moreover, its existence is 100% dependent on people as even they admit. If the rulers of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco and a few other so-called Islamic countries decided that now Shaaban would be called Ramadhan and the majority agrees then this is what will happen. So it is 100% dependent on humans and their arbitrary decisions. On the other hand, with or without humans the summer solstice will take place. Similarly, with or without humans the scorching full-moon after the solstice will follow a low path across the horizon and thus will appear reddish in color and hint to the coming of the hottest time of the year will take place.
Quote from: theNabster on September 02, 2009, 03:45:02 AMMay The God make us Peace Makers and Reasonable in our endeavours and not shirk from the Truth even if we think it is painful.
May the god have mercy on us.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 02, 2009, 08:36:24 AMFirst I thank you for providing the tip on pasting image on this post. Thanks!
You are most welcome. :)
Quote from: guest on September 02, 2009, 08:36:24 AMLet?s analyze the contradictions in this one simple sentence of Ayman.
The full moon around summer solstice is not special...
There is no need to waste my time or your time or the reader time on this. I would suggest that you and anyone else who has doubts to do a Google search on full-moon illusion that happens around the summer solstice and the reason why it is more reddish in color than the other full-moons.
Quote from: guest on September 02, 2009, 08:36:24 AMAyman, it is your job to defend your theory. You shouldn?t be asking us any questions rather telling us how 2:189 justifies your theory. This is bad logic.
You are free not to question anything and blindly accept manmade falsehood. The reason for this theory is that I questioned the dumb and arbitrary traditional calendar and tried to find the answer by studying the great reading. In fact, everyone who studied this subject did so because of questioning the traditional calendar. If the traditional calendar was unquestionable then no one would bother to study this subject.
Quote from: guest on September 02, 2009, 08:36:24 AMClearly the verse 2:189 says that the moon is the timing device and NOT THE SUN. Thus, we have lunar timing for Hajj and counting years.
I don't agree with your translation but will use it to disprove your theory.
Commonsense would dictate that start of the moon (new moon crescent) trigger the Hajj event and ends in crescent moon. Begin Hajj with beginning moon. Can it get any simpler than that?
Unlike some others on this thread, thank you for honestly admitting that the start of the sectarian timing for Hajj according to their calendar on 8th of Dhu Al-Hijjah (not with the new moon crescent as you say) and its end on the 13th of Dhu-Alhijjah (not with the crescent moon) is 100% false and arbitrary.
Quote from: guest on September 02, 2009, 08:36:24 AMYou are beating around the bush when you go from full moon (not a crescent moon) to another stage of the moon. Full moon is not considered crescent moon thus you are violating your own definition. Your concept is equivalent to entering a house from back door because the full moon is going back to its new moon stage again. Please stop disobeying the God?s commandments.
It is you who is beating around the bush. Your theory of starting the ?hajj? with the new moon crescent and ending it with the waning crescent results in ?hajj? lasting for 25 days. When you think of the front door do you think of something clear and apparent or of something hidden and dim? Which is the one that is hidden and dim, the front door or the back door? The full moon or the new moon?
Quote from: guest on September 02, 2009, 08:36:24 AMHere is a tip for you: the moon is a closed loop system and the sun is a closed loop system. It is impossible to bring them together which you are attempting to do, foolishly. It is not like an electronic circuit in which you can couple energy from one loop to create another loop that is in synch with the other. You don?t have that flexibility here. An analogy that fit well is: you have one foot on moon another feet on sun and forcing them to synch. And this is unwise and dangerous.
Tell this to the god who designed this system. You choose to ignore it and instead follow an arbitrary and completely useless manmade timing system that you hypocritically don?t follow for any practical purposes. Thus, for any practical purpose such as the timing for when you plant crops or when you go to the beach or when you put on your heavy clothes or when the harvest takes place you follow the god?s natural timing. Willingly or unwillingly everyone will obey the god. The difference is that I do it willingly while you do it unwillingly.
Peace,
Ayman
Salam Farida,
if you happen to take too much caffeine, you need to ease up on it, lol...
the arabs have a big responsibility because the Quran was revealed in their mother tongue, they like it or not,
so they will be doubly accountable, so it is not an enviable position to be in, and for those of them who are rich,
do not think Allah has made them rich because of their origin, but to test them and give them a chance to come back
or finish in ignominy.
Yes the Quran did single out the Arabs, read here:
9:97 The pagan Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be in ignorance of the
limits (All?h's Commandments and His Legal Laws, etc.) which All?h has revealed to His
Messenger. And All?h is All-Knower, All-Wise.
now are you envious of this lot?
but the realm between Yathrib/Medinah and Petra/Jerusalem contain remnants, relics, forensic evidence that could shed
a lot of light into what we are looking for.
There are universities who get funding to do these things, but they do focus on what they want to find out, just check out e.g.:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/Petra/
now please kindly stop being a drama queen, let us be impartial adults and let not our emotions overtake our spirit, and be truthful
why are you so enraged at Ayman? is it because you perceive he put you down, or for defending the current status quo?
I have my deep disagreements with Ayman and other people, but that does not mean that I completely close the possibility that I might be wrong somewhere.
Here is an example, I do not understand or relate to his interpretation of Jinns, I read his explanations, and I find them fully unsatisfactory, so that is that, nothing more and nothing less.
There is no point in allowing rampant emotions in, matter of fact this is why among other things "muslims" are in such a mighty mess, they are far too emotional, and when it comes with some areas they are entrenched in, one cannot reason with many of them.
If I were Ayman I will lay it to rest too, he made his point, he should leave it to Allah to make the final judgment. Decisions, Prayers, Wishes, Actions, take time to bring things to fruition and we have beautiful examples in the Quran (my favourite one is Joseph, imagine spending years away from his family, then big tribulations when he reaches his twenties (maybe) then 12 years or more in jail, and then more years pass before he is finally re-united with his family and his treacherous brothers (who by the way are all prophets!).
I think a story like this make our little fights much in perspective.
God bless.
and our last prayer is Praise be to Allah the Lord of the Worlds!
Peace Rami,
Quote from: Rami on September 02, 2009, 09:01:54 AMI don't understand a logical absurdity in this thread. That is if Aymans theory is false, the traditional theory becomes true.
The question remains, why is Ramadan the ninth month of the count and when does your count begin? When is the beginning of the year?
If you go back to the year 01/01/01 of the sectarian era you will see that it began right after the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Vivek
Quote from: vivek on September 02, 2009, 09:22:22 AMWhy is it 10 days? Why not exactly one day?
Is it because the full-moon appears so for about 10 days to our sight?
Isn't full-moon only for a single day scientifically?
Why is it 3-10 days but not from the 1st day of the full-moon?
Because we are told that the abstinence is for a complete count of a few (3-10) days. The
complete count of 3-10 is 10. Also, we are told in 2:189 that the crescents are used as timing devices. The time from full-moon to the waning crescent is 10 days. This is the only way that a crescent can be used to time a 10 day period (also for "hajj", which we know it 10 days according to the great reading).
Quote from: vivek on September 02, 2009, 09:22:22 AMNot only traditional Islam but also major religions(Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism,etc) followed lunar calendar. The solar calendar system is purely a christian concept which all of humanity follow now. Though the Quran mentions both the sun and moon as pointers to the time, considering that all other religions followed lunar calendar, why can't we conclude that Islam too in the time of Muhammad used purely a lunar calendar having nothing to do with solar cycles? I ask this question because I believe all such religions as the revealed ones like Islam and value them all at par.
The question is not about calendars. All calendars are manmade. The god and all his creation use universal timing based on clear cosmic phenomena. Even humans who advocate a purely lunar calendar follow the god?s natural timing based on 17:12 and 10:5 etc. whether they like it or not. If we agree that the great reading points to both the sun and the moon for timing then this is what must be, especially since this is confirmed by empirically verifiable reality.
Got to go catch a plane will reply to others later.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: theNabster on September 03, 2009, 08:29:32 PM
Salam Farida,
if you happen to take too much caffeine, you need to ease up on it, lol...
Salaam,
That's what I said earlier, the orginal members always come up to derail the subject lol...
Quotethe arabs have a big responsibility because the Quran was revealed in their mother tongue, they like it or not,
so they will be doubly accountable, so it is not an enviable position to be in, and for those of them who are rich,
do not think Allah has made them rich because of their origin, but to test them and give them a chance to come back
or finish in ignominy
We all have a responsiblity and you may think they are RICH but, to me they are the poorest of the poor.
QuoteYes the Quran did single out the Arabs, read here:
9:97 The pagan Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be in ignorance of the
limits (All?h's Commandments and His Legal Laws, etc.) which All?h has revealed to His
Messenger. And All?h is All-Knower, All-Wise.
We have quite a few of them on this thread who do nothing but boast about being Arab.
Quotenow are you envious of this lot?
but the realm between Yathrib/Medinah and Petra/Jerusalem contain remnants, relics, forensic evidence that could shed
a lot of light into what we are looking for.
There are universities who get funding to do these things, but they do focus on what they want to find out, just check out e.g.:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/Petra/
now please kindly stop being a drama queen, let us be impartial adults and let not our emotions overtake our spirit, and be truthful
why are you so enraged at Ayman? is it because you perceive he put you down, or for defending the current status quo?
I have my deep disagreements with Ayman and other people, but that does not mean that I completely close the possibility that I might be wrong somewhere.
Here is an example, I do not understand or relate to his interpretation of Jinns, I read his explanations, and I find them fully unsatisfactory, so that is that, nothing more and nothing less.
There is no point in allowing rampant emotions in, matter of fact this is why among other things "muslims" are in such a mighty mess, they are far too emotional, and when it comes with some areas they are entrenched in, one cannot reason with many of them.
If I were Ayman I will lay it to rest too, he made his point, he should leave it to Allah to make the final judgment. Decisions, Prayers, Wishes, Actions, take time to bring things to fruition and we have beautiful examples in the Quran (my favourite one is Joseph, imagine spending years away from his family, then big tribulations when he reaches his twenties (maybe) then 12 years or more in jail, and then more years pass before he is finally re-united with his family and his treacherous brothers (who by the way are all prophets!).
I think a story like this make our little fights much in perspective.
:offtopic: :ignore:
God bless.
Quoteand our last prayer is Praise be to Allah the Lord of the Worlds!
:handshake:
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
Salaam Samia,
No Samia there is a lot of new stuff on this thread. Ayman?s Mantra having put people like you off is another matter. But the thread is turning into a black hole and, as a result, all the hard work by the other contributors is being swallowed up. It has now come to a stage where I have to give page link as a reference for my posts to draw attention to our hard work.
Salaam farida
As I explained, I was following the thread closely,aka reading, albeit not participating.What new opinions were there? I was not talking about new posts nor new posters. And I was definitely not put off by Ayman's posts.
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
Salaam Samia,
.I feel so honoured that you like my rendition, however, if only you had paid attention to the top part of my post, you would have noticed that it cited 9:36 ?The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record.?
I?m surprised that this part of my post did not interest you, despite the fact that this is the core of our belief, when it comes to count in the eyes of God as you rightly said that God does not care what "our year. Therefore no adding or skipping just count 12 *shahr/moon/month,.
*Month Etymology -Reply #1213 on: August 27, 2009, 04:29:25 PM page 81 I am sure this too was unnoticed by you
The pleasure is mine :)
However, it seems you did not understand my post. I liked your rendition on "sana" and "3aam" as defined by natural events (harvest and flood) not name nor number of days. Same for day (sun/sunrise-sunset - darkness), again no name or number of hours.Then suddenly a month with a name and anumber of days? Only one month? Why didn't we have the name of the month of hajj.
Etymology was of course noticed by me and I think you mentioned it in more than a post.
Even the etymology of month: starts with the noun "moon" not crescent.The "th" serves as "relative to/ related to" as in "sixth" for example. It did not start with "crescent", so, as in Arabic, it has nothing to do with crescent nor with number of days.
Quote from: farida on September 02, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
No offence Samia but, unlike you, I have little interest these hadiths, however if you like to get your hand on a hadith driven dossier, introduced to us by a very interesting character, quickduck, who was trying to convince us (failing miserably) that , the order of months, as per his understanding, has never been always the same. Get your hands on this find on page 84 quickduck?s Reply #1246 on: August 28, 2009, 07:55:03 PM I am sure you would love this findings.
As always it?s great to hear from you.
Now it's my turn! You definitely haven't read my post following the one you are quoting almost immediately:
Quote from: Samia on September 02, 2009, 05:44:17 PM
Of course you find in "Islamic" literature the story and its opposite. So here is another story about the Islamic calender:
It's said that the Islamic calender was set much earlier, from the first year the prophet immigrated, and so it was logical that he started it with "rabee3 -ul-awal: first grazing", but Omar changed it to make it start with "mu7arram: the restricted month".
In my opinion:
Both stories are baseless, and they are just there to give credit to the whole fiasco of a lunar "Islamic" year. Otherwise, if the firs khalif could change the beginning of a calender, thus moving the time of fasting, how much manipulation took place in this calender?
And should we trust it, or trust God and search in His book?
But anyway, I am glad we agree on rejecting hadith and unverified stories. However, my question is: How can you prove that a month called Ramadan is what God is talking about? Where did you get it when it was never mentioned in any of the previous scriptures, nor had any other "month" been mentioned before,nor do we have any more information abou its position in the year,its number of days...?
Why would a people call a month (scorching) when it's as scorching as well as cold as any other month?
I just hope that you honestly try to give it a little thought: Why are we in a mess every year because no one is able to see the "crescent"? Also think of the night the quraan was descended.The time we are supposed to fast was mainly chosen for this event: why start fasting a couple or triple of weeks earlier,and then just guess, if we even think about it, which night is that one better than a thousand moons? Traditioalists do not know it nor care about it tenth as much as they care about the "month of Ramadan".
And most of all, why would God link the hajj with crescents and not fasting, yet traditionalists, and unfortunately you, link fasting to crescents and not hajj? You are a lawyer and I expect from a lawyer to start from uncertainty, and work their way forward, not the other way round.
Salaam Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
Salaam Eid
First: In Arabic there is nothing called "genderless noun". Some nouns may have either gender, and they are very few and well known. Also, in Arabic there is no equivalent to "it". There are only two pronouns: "literally" he and she.
Secondly: ՝ذكرى is remembrance not reminder;and it is a feminine noun. Reminder is ذكر and it is a masculine noun; as in (إنا نزلنا الذكر وإنا له لحافظون ).
Accordingly, (إن هي /it is but ) refers to a feminine noun. Quraan is not a feminine noun, but masculine.Therefore, this (it's but) cannot refer to it.
Then apply it consistently for every word that refers to Qur'an, are these all masculine?
1. Kitab Scripture 43:2/44:2
2. Qur?an 56:77
3. Kalam Word 9:6
4. Nur Light 4:174
5. Huda Guidance 10:57/31:32
6. Rahma Mercy 10:57/10:58
7. Furqan The Criterion (of right and wrong) 25:1
8. Shifa? Healing 17:82
9. Maw?iza Exhortation 10:57
10. Dhikr Reminder 21:50
11. Karim Noble 56:77
12. ?Ali Sublime 43:41
13. Hikma Wisdom 54:5
14. Hakim Wise 10:2
15. Muhaiman Watcher (i.e., over the previous Scriptures) 5:48
16. Mubarak Blessed 38:30
17. Habl Cable (i.e., Allah?s) 3:103
18. as-Sirat al-Mustaqim Straight Path 6:153
19. al-Qiyyam Straight 18:2
20. Fasl Conclusive 86:13
21. Naba? Azim The Awful Tidings 78:2
22. Ahsan al-Hadith The Fairest of Statements 39:23
23. Tanzil Revelation 26:192
24. Ruh Spirit 42:52
25. Wahy Inspiration 21:45
26. al-Mathani The Oft-Repeated (verses) 15:87
27. ?Arabi Arabic 39:28
28. Qawl Word 28:51
29. Basa?ir Clear Indications 45:20
30. Bayan Declaration 3:138
31. ?Ilm Knowledge 13:37
32. Haqq True 3:62
33. al-Hadi Guide 17:9
34. ?Ajab Marvelous 72:1
35. Tadhkira Admonishment 74:54
36. al-?Urwa al-Wuthqa The Firm Hand-Hold 31:22
37. Mutashabih Consistent 39:23
38. Sidq The Truth 39:33
39. ?Adl Justice 6:115
40. Iman Faith 3:192
41. Amr Commandment 65:5
42. Bushra Good Tidings 27:2
43. Majid Glorious 85:21
44. Zabur Scripture 21:105
45. Mubin That which maketh plain 12:1
46. Bashir Good Tidings 41:4
47. Nadhir Warning 41:4
48. ?Aziz Unassailable 41:41
49. Balagh Clear Message 14:52
50. Qassas Narratives 12:3
51. Suhuf Leaves 80:13
52. Mukarrama Honored 80:13
53. Marfu?a Exalted 80:14
54. Mutahhara Purified 80:14
55. Qawl Word
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2009, 08:21:54 PM
Before I respond to previous posts chronologically, let me add a small comment to your thoughtful reply. I think what confused Eid is that he assumed that there must be gender agreement between "zikra" and what it describes. There is no such gender agreement in Arabic. Same structure here:
الرجل هو قدوة لإبنه
Literal: The man (masculine) he (masculine) a role model (feminine) for his (masculine) son.
This is not an advice just for Eid but for everyone, we should all be careful and avoid knee-jerk kind responses against things that are unfamiliar to us and instead try to reason and learn patiently.
The point to this pointless exercise is you avoiding to answer how to fast a full-moon.
2:183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.
2:184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?
While you have it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain,
the abstinence.
So yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Likewise apply what was asked in the prior post...
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
1. Does he commence fasting? YES!
2. Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2009, 08:25:15 PM
In all likelihood, Umar and all the so-called Sahaba never met the prophet.
False! Read history, PERF 558, and inscription in 24 AH
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/18/islamic-inscription.html
QuoteIt is interesting that, as Herbman noted, the start of the new Umar calendar precisely coincides with when the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice was visible. So this pinpoints the point of initial corruption and further confirms the fact that before the corruption the summer solstice marked the start of the year.
This has ZERO to with it; summer solstice happened in the 12th month Dhu al-Hijjah in that year which was the year of the migration and the 1st month Muharram happened on July 16 that year.
It has already been shown you that if you roll back PERF 558
only 10 years after the prophet (pbuh) left using new moon data the precise date of the start of new era which aligns perfectly with historical dates.
They knew the months (well known) and could have chosen the 1st month in any year to start the era; e.g. if they picked the year of PERF 558 then our friend would have written year 1 AH instead of year 22 which shows they used a lunar calendar at the time and obliterates the hot moon...
New Moon Date (start new month 2 days later)
1/17/622 7. Rajab
16-Feb 8. Sha'aban
18-Mar 9. Ramadan
16-Apr 10. Shawwal
16-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
12-Aug 2. Safar
Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) Hijra 11-Sep 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-Oct 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-Nov 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Dec 6. Jumada al-thani
1/6/623 7. Rajab
5-Feb 8. Sha'aban
7-Mar 9. Ramadan
5-Apr 10. Shawwal
5-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
3-Jul 1. Muharram 2 AH
2-Aug 2. Safar
31-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Dec 7. Rajab
1/25/624 8. Sha'aban
24-Feb 9. Ramadan
March 17, 624 (17 Ramadan 2 AH) Badr Battle24-Mar 10. Shawwal
23-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
23-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
21-Jun 1. Muharram 3 AH
21-Jul 2. Safar
20-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
18-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
18-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
16-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
16-Dec 7. Rajab
1/14/625 8. Sha'aban
13-Feb 9. Ramadan
14-Mar 10. Shawwal
March 19, 625 (3 Shawwal 3 AH) Battle of Uhud12-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
12-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
10-Jun 1. Muharram 4 AH
10-Jul 2. Safar
9-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
7-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
7-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
6-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
5-Dec 7. Rajab
1/4/626 8. Sha'aban
2-Feb 9. Ramadan
4-Mar 10. Shawwal
2-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
31-May 1. Muharram 5 AH
29-Jun 2. Safar
29-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
27-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
26-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Nov 7. Rajab
24-Dec 8. Sha'aban
1/23/627 9. Ramadan
21-Feb 10. Shawwal
23-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
21-Apr 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
20-May 1. Muharram 6 AH
19-Jun 2. Safar
18-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
16-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
15-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Nov 7. Rajab
13-Dec 8. Sha'aban
1/12/628 9. Ramadan
11-Feb 10. Shawwal
11-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
10-Apr 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
9-May 1. Muharram 7 AH
7-Jun 2. Safar
7-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
5-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
3-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
3-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
2-Nov 7. Rajab
1-Dec 8. Sha'aban
31-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/30/629 10. Shawwal
1-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
29-Apr 1. Muharram 8 AH
28-May 2. Safar
26-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
26-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
24-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
22-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
22-Oct 7. Rajab
20-Nov 8. Sha'aban
20-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/19/630 10. Shawwal
18-Feb 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Apr 1. Muharram 9 AH
17-May 2. Safar
16-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
15-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
14-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
12-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
11-Oct 7. Rajab
10-Nov 8. Sha'aban
9-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/8/631 10. Shawwal
7-Feb 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
7-Apr 1. Muharram 10 AH
7-May 2. Safar
5-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
5-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
3-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
2-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
1-Oct 7. Rajab
30-Oct 8. Sha'aban
29-Nov 9. Ramadan
28-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/27/632 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
25-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
Prophet's final sermon 9th of Dhu al-Hijjah, 10 AH 26-Mar 1. Muharram 11 AH
25-Apr 2. Safar
24-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal, 11 AH) prophet left (pbuh)23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
23-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
21-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
20-Sep 7. Rajab
19-Oct 8. Sha'aban
17-Nov 9. Ramadan
17-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/15/633 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
15-Mar 1. Muharram 12 AH
14-Apr 2. Safar
13-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
12-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
12-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
10-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
9-Sep 7. Rajab
9-Oct 8. Sha'aban
7-Nov 9. Ramadan
7-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/5/634 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
5-Mar 1. Muharram 13 AH
3-Apr 2. Safar
3-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
1-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
1-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
30-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
29-Aug 7. Rajab
28-Sep 8. Sha'aban
27-Oct 9. Ramadan
26-Nov 10. Shawwal
26-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/24/635 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
23-Feb 1. Muharram 14 AH
24-Mar 2. Safar
22-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
22-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
20-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
19-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
18-Aug 7. Rajab
17-Sep 8. Sha'aban
17-Oct 9. Ramadan
15-Nov 10. Shawwal
15-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/14/636 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
12-Feb 1. Muharram 15 AH
13-Mar 2. Safar
11-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
9-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Aug 7. Rajab
5-Sep 8. Sha'aban
5-Oct 9. Ramadan
3-Nov 10. Shawwal
3-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/2/637 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1-Feb 1. Muharram 16 AH
2-Mar 2. Safar
1-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Jul 7. Rajab
25-Aug 8. Sha'aban
24-Sep 9. Ramadan
23-Oct 10. Shawwal
22-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
22-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/21/638 1. Muharram 17 AH
19-Feb 2. Safar
21-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
20-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
19-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
17-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
17-Jul 7. Rajab
15-Aug 8. Sha'aban
13-Sep 9. Ramadan
13-Oct 10. Shawwal
11-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
11-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/10/639 1. Muharram 18 AH
8-Feb 2. Safar
10-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
9-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
7-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Jul 7. Rajab
5-Aug 8. Sha'aban
3-Sep 9. Ramadan
2-Oct 10. Shawwal
1-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
30-Dec 1. Muharram 19 AH
1/28/640 2. Safar
27-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
28-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
27-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-May 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Jun 7. Rajab
24-Jul 8. Sha'aban
23-Aug 9. Ramadan
21-Sep 10. Shawwal
20-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Dec 1. Muharram 20 AH
1/17/641 2. Safar
15-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
17-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
16-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-May 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Jun 7. Rajab
13-Jul 8. Sha'aban
12-Aug 9. Ramadan
11-Sep 10. Shawwal
10-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
8-Dec 1. Muharram 21 AH
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram 22 AH
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal
PERF 558 last day of Jumada al-awwal 4/2524-Apr 6. Jumada al-thani begins 4/26
23-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 2. Safar
The above data cannot be denied and no need to lie about receiving sheep at the end of the month.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:07:42 AM
Salaam Samia,
Then apply it consistently for every word that refers to Qur'an, are these all masculine?
Salaam Eid
You have a funny logic!
Words "attributed to quraan" are not the word "quraan" which you mentioned in your post and which I am talking about. Words referring to the quraan are attributes and have their own masculine and feminine description. They do not affect the gender of the word they are describing.
The example brought by Ayman best explains this.
And you cannot be critical to my post and to Ayman's at the same time if you know what you are talking bout (or maybe that was why :): Ayman gave an example of a "feminine" attribute to a "masculine" word:
الرجل قدوة . Just as saying
القرآن هدى . In both sentences, quraan (m.s) and man (m.s) are the subject and the attributes (f.s.) are attributes to the subject. Any verb conjugation, pronoun, demonstrative pronoun...etc will follow the (m.s) subject not the feminine (f.s) attribute. In other words, you will still have to treat the phrase as a
masculine singular (m.s) and use the masculine singular pronoun in these two cases.
In response to the dudes who say that the Torah calendar is a lunar one.
Well, yes it partly is.
But the FIRST month is marked by the abib barley in Israel. A system a BIT similar to Ayman's theory where there is a marker to begin the count to keep things in sync.
Quote from: Rami on September 04, 2009, 07:25:33 AM
But the FIRST month is marked by the abib barley in Israel. A system a BIT similar to Ayman's theory where there is a marker to begin the count to keep things in sync.
Exactly! By adding of 13th month to keep things in sync.
Many thanks and regards
:peace:
Quote from: MUNZIR ALI on September 02, 2009, 01:45:10 PM
Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death... :brickwall:
Salaam young man
The following examples will show that Hitler at the time of the Goebbels article (published on 16 November 1941) was voicing very similar views concerning the Jews to those expressed by Goebbels(the minister of propaganda)
At his table talk on 21 October 1941, Hitler exclaimed about the Jews: 'If we exterminate this plague, we will accomplish for humankind a deed the importance of which our men out there can still have no idea. http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/en/trial/defense/evans/430diiiC
Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians,... siki on August 25, 2009, 07:06:05 AM page 80 http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg218114#msg218114
Let me tell you son I am from Pakistan too and it makes my blood boil when I see the majority there engaged in pagan rituals at all levels from dancing at the tombs of saints to Mullahs chanting like donkeys in the Mosque. Yet I would never use such a term (plague) for them all. I say to myself; God this is your creation and despite all the guidance sent to them they still chose the path of those who went astray. Allahu Aalum WHY?
Now do you want to understand what is meant by "the Roman Salute" then please don?t ask your father; he would be hurt; just google; Adolf Hitler, fascist or Nazi.
May the god have mercy on us.
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Exactly! By adding of 13th month to keep things in sync.
Many thanks and regards
:peace:
You mixed the traditional Babylonian Jewish calendar with the Torah calendar. The idea of adding an intercalary months and the metonic cycle is Babylonian. The Torah based calendar calls the first crescent after the Abib in Israel the first month. So its auto-adjusting.
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 09:48:59 AM
Salaam young man
The following examples will show that Hitler at the time of the Goebbels article (published on 16 November 1941) was voicing very similar views concerning the Jews to those expressed by Goebbels(the minister of propaganda)
At his table talk on 21 October 1941, Hitler exclaimed about the Jews: 'If we exterminate this plague, we will accomplish for humankind a deed the importance of which our men out there can still have no idea. http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/en/trial/defense/evans/430diiiC
Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians,... siki on August 25, 2009, 07:06:05 AM page 80 http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg218114#msg218114
Let me tell you son I am from Pakistan too and it makes my blood boil when I see the majority there engaged in pagan rituals at all levels from dancing at the tombs of saints to Mullahs chanting like donkeys in the Mosque. Yet I would never use such a term (plague) for them all. I say to myself; God this is your creation and despite all the guidance sent to them they still chose the path of those who went astray. Allahu Aalum WHY?
Now do you want to understand what is meant by "the Roman Salute" then please don’t ask your father; he would be hurt; just google; Adolf Hitler, fascist or Nazi.
May the god have mercy on us.
:peace:
Have you ever wondered why Hitler started to hate the Jews though he had many Jewish friends?
What did the Jews do?
Do you know the difference between the American Jew and the German Jew?
Peace Samia
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 05:44:36 AM
Salaam Eid
You have a funny logic!
Words "attributed to quraan" are not the word "quraan" which you mentioned in your post and which I am talking about. Words referring to the quraan are attributes and have their own masculine and feminine description. They do not affect the gender of the word they are describing.
The example brought by Ayman best explains this.
And you cannot be critical to my post and to Ayman's at the same time if you know what you are talking bout (or maybe that was why :): Ayman gave an example of a "feminine" attribute to a "masculine" word: الرجل قدوة . Just as saying القرآن هدى . In both sentences, quraan (m.s) and man (m.s) are the subject and the attributes (f.s.) are attributes to the subject. Any verb conjugation, pronoun, demonstrative pronoun...etc will follow the (m.s) subject not the feminine (f.s) attribute. In other words, you will still have to treat the phrase as a masculine singular (m.s) and use the masculine singular pronoun in these two cases.
I am afraid we are pooring water in the sand, and whatever we say or whatever we try to explain to him , i bet he (Nun, Holiday, Pseudo, Eid, Rex...) still cannot understand. It's like that, you cannot do anything...it's a hopeless case .
@ Farida : i never said that i am an arab, neither that i was proud of being arab. (i hate most of them, by the way)
the fact that you speak english very well does'nt imply that you are (proud of being ) an english woman.
But your arrogance has hit again, and you are turning yourself into ridiculous, trying to hunt any inconsistency in my posts. So please grow up...
Well, i'll say it again : I am PROUD of being an ARABIC, FRENCH, SPANICH, and "not bad" ENGLISH Speaker...but arabic and french are my best ..... :)
And because we are discussing a quranic understanding and quoting from the quran, and since the quran was originally revealed in arabic ( correct me if i am mistaking) ; so it make me very very very angry when someone quotes the quran with pathetic understanding due to the lack of arabic knowledge, and also the lack of the will to learn arabic.
So that's why i am proud (not of being arab but ) of being a good arabic speaker...
Salaaaaaam
Salaam
Quote from: Rami on September 04, 2009, 09:59:13 AM
Have you ever wondered why Hitler started to hate the Jews though he had many Jewish friends?
What did the Jews do?
Do you know the difference between the American Jew and the German Jew?
Yes I do, a lot of information now a days is available on the net about the conspiracy behind the hate campaign and who were actually killed and the difference you mentioned above. But I don?t want to derail this thread so let's not go off topic pls.
Regards
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 10:00:29 AM
And because we are discussing a quranic understanding and quoting from the quran, and since the quran was originally revealed in arabic ( correct me if i am mistaking) ; so it make me very very very angry when someone quotes the quran with pathetic understanding due to the lack of arabic knowledge, and also the lack of the will to learn arabic.
So that's why i am proud (not of being arab but ) of being a good arabic speaker...
Salaaaaaam
Salaam
Salaaaaaam
I am in the middle of writing exactly that so look forward to "my forth coming post" ;D
:peace:
Peace Ayman,
As you can see, your points are in blue, and mine are in red.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
I never said such thing. I said it was descended in a scorching full-moon. This is the same as saying it descended in a blazing sun or a cloudy day, etc. Just like all the phases of the moon, the scorching moon is an entirely optical phenomenon.
Day = Period of time
Moon = Object
Who are you trying to fool? You are just trying to save your 'scorching moon' theory at any cost.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
The great reading is about consistency. The great reading was descended in a scorching full-moon is more logical because it is consistent with the rest of the passage and other passages. For example, it is consistent with the following facts:
Maybe that is why the moon was split by Muhammad... the Quran was stuck in it (according to your wording).
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
1. The great reading was revealed in the night of measure (1 night not a whole month).
Are you telling me that this proves your point?
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
3. The false understanding of ?month? creates an insurmountable logical absurdity since ?shahid? (witnessed) is in the perfect past tense so this implies that you have to witness the month and then go back in time and fast. Thus even the staunchest Sunnis admit that this passage is talking about witnessing an event (they claim to be the new moon crescent) and not a month. Rex and you can try to change the words of the passage to make it say ?witness the first day of the month? or whatever but this is not what the passage is saying.
I have already explained the reason for the usage of the past tense... If you want, I'll post it again for you.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
This is just some ignorant crap as typical from Submission.org.
Ignorant statement.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
The fast in the Bible is prescribed as one day and not a whole month.
There are many fasts described in the Bible - either-or fallacy.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
If you believe in the Bible then you might as well go ahead and idolize Jesus.
That's some screwed up logic you have...the above is fallacious as well, of course...
Besides, we're talking about the OT part of the Bible... Jesus didnt exist in the time when the OT was published *hint hint*.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
An example of a Jewish fast is that of Taanit Bkhorot which happens on the day before the full-moon. Also, the 9th month of the Hebrew Calendar is Kislev which occurs in the November-December timeframe.
Why are you switching the topic? Did the fact that the people back then - real Submitters - not your Jewish calendar people with the Mishnah and Gemerrah - used a pure lunar calendar freak you out?
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
There is no evidence of a month called Ramadan
LMAO. Is this the way you prove your points and refute others' ones?
Jeremiah 36:9 "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
let alone a 10 day period called Ramadan
Why are you telling me this? Arent you the one promoting your lousy 10 days of fasting?
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
I never said that it is a name so you are, as usual, building a strawman. I said that it is a common noun. The burden of proof is on you to show that there was a pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. I know you can?t prove it.
The only one posting logically fallacious stuff is you. I presented my proofs to you - now it's your turn. As I can see from the above quote, you have none.
So, where is your proof of people having fasted after having witnessed 'the full moon of schorching heat'?
Have a nice Ramadan :peace:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 03, 2009, 08:27:45 PM
QuoteThere is no need to waste my time or your time or the reader time on this. I would suggest that you and anyone else who has doubts to do a Google search on full-moon illusion that happens around the summer solstice and the reason why it is more reddish in color than the other full-moons.
Perhaps you forgot to take a good look at the picture of December 2008 full moon I cited. You will find it reddish in color. Enough said.
QuoteYou are free not to question anything and blindly accept manmade falsehood.
No, I am asking you good and intelligent questions. But you are the one who is asking irrelevant and poor questions. You have created a fictitious problem and an imaginary solution. The house you created is worst than that of the spider house.
QuoteUnlike some others on this thread, thank you for honestly admitting that the start of the sectarian timing for Hajj according to their calendar on 8th of Dhu Al-Hijjah (not with the new moon crescent as you say) and its end on the 13th of Dhu-Alhijjah (not with the crescent moon) is 100% false and arbitrary.
I am in agreement with the 8th Dhu Al-Hijj. The point I was trying to make with the new moon crescent is the front door vs. the back door. The new moon looks like this: ----) which is easily mapped to main entrance (welcome) or front of a house. As opposed to your crescent which looks like this: -------- ( showing the back entrance.
QuoteIt is you who is beating around the bush. Your theory of starting the ?hajj? with the new moon crescent and ending it with the waning crescent results in ?hajj? lasting for 25 days. When you think of the front door do you think of something clear and apparent or of something hidden and dim? Which is the one that is hidden and dim, the front door or the back door? The full moon or the new moon?
Here is the definition of crescent: A moon that is between a half moon and a new moon.
http://www.go-astronomy.com/glossary/astronomy-glossary-c.htm
That?s why I said hajj start and end in crescent moon. I am using your translation "crescent" to defeat your theory. Per the definition you don?t get 25 days of hajj. You are totally confused.
Your mapping of full moon to front door is irrelevant because it violates the definition of crescent.
This off-topic. Please open another thread if you want to discuss hajj.
QuoteTell this to the god who designed this system. You choose to ignore it and instead follow an arbitrary and completely useless manmade timing system that you hypocritically don?t follow for any practical purposes.
The God already told us that ?The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit (36:40). You are the one who is disobeying Him.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 04, 2009, 11:42:44 AM
Peace Ayman,
As you can see, your points are in blue, and mine are in red.
Quote from: ayman on September 01, 2009, 10:54:48 PM
I never said such thing. I said it was descended in a scorching full-moon. This is the same as saying it descended in a blazing sun or a cloudy day, etc. Just like all the phases of the moon, the scorching moon is an entirely optical phenomenon.
Day = Period of time
Moon = Object
Who are you trying to fool? You are just trying to save your 'scorching moon' theory at any cost.
1 - Moon = object , correct ! but "full-moon" = a state of the moon/object. it also describes an event/trigger.
2 - "scorching" full-moon is another state/adjective of the moon/object . So one cannot say that the quran was revealed in an "object", but one can say : quran was revealed in a night (period of time as well as a day) WHEN the moon was :
a - in a full state (obvious),
b - big ( because of its lower path)
c - reddish and hot because of the summer solstice.
it makes perfect sense. ( for those who can afford to understand common sense).
Now this is @ Guest :
3- hence, "the hot-scorching-big-obvious-reddish-full moon" ie. "shahr Ramadan" is unique because it happens only once in a year, after the summer solstice. the reddish big full moon of December misses at least one important attribute : "hot-scorching"...am i clear enough ?
i thought some people on this forum had problems with understanding arabic, but now i see that they had big problems with english as well :((((((((((
salam
@ Farida
i am waiting for your forth coming post
salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 04:21:14 PM
1 - Moon = object , correct ! but "full-moon" = a state of the moon/object. it also describes an event/trigger.
2 - "scorching" full-moon is another state/adjective of the moon/object .
3- hence, "the hot-scorching-obvious-reddish-full moon" ie. "shahr Ramadan" is unique because it happens only once in a year, after the summer solstice. the reddish big full moon of December missess at least one important attribute : "hot-scorching"...
i thought some people on this forum had problems with understandng arabic, but now i see that they had big problems with english as well :((((((((((
salam
Indeed, some people dont understand English very well.. the Quran having been descended IN a full moon... very interesting.
2:185
Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila
feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqan
BTW, what's the problem with not understanding Arabic?
Also, why the
DOUBLE POSTING?
FYI, a full moon IS an object, or do you suggest something different?
Quote from: Rami on September 04, 2009, 09:55:07 AM
You mixed the traditional Babylonian Jewish calendar with the Torah calendar. The idea of adding an intercalary months and the metonic cycle is Babylonian. The Torah based calendar calls the first crescent after the Abib in Israel the first month. So its auto-adjusting.
Peace Rami
Reply #509 on: September 22, 2008 truthseeker11
Excerpt from one of the links, http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom7.htm
"The Rabbis would structure elaboate rules as to what constituted an appearance of the new moon, how many witnesses to the event were necessary, what qualifications those witnesses must possess, etc."
This shows how hard it is to accurately witness a new moon. The current sectarians who follow the Jews instead of The Quran have the same problem of determining the new moon every year and it is an empiric fact that there is always a dispute among them about the appearance of the new moon
The modern Hebrew calendar, since it is based on rules rather than observations, does not exactly track the tropical year, and in fact the average Hebrew year of ~365.2468 days is intermediate between the tropical year (~365.2422 days) and the sidereal year (~365.2564 days)
:peace: :peace:
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 04:23:59 PM
@ Farida
i am waiting for your forth coming post
salam
Salaaam quickduck,
Good things come to those who wait. the key word is patience
:peace:
Salaam Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 05:44:36 AM
You have a funny logic!
Words "attributed to quraan" are not the word "quraan" which you mentioned in your post and which I am talking about. Words referring to the quraan are attributes and have their own masculine and feminine description. They do not affect the gender of the word they are describing.
The example brought by Ayman best explains this.
No funny logic is the full moon.
هي she is الا not except ذكرى
a remembrance"she/it is" can refer to any attribute of Qur'an; read context of 74:31 and the verse posted...
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and
a remembrance to the believers.
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 10:00:29 AM
I am afraid we are pooring water in the sand, and whatever we say or whatever we try to explain to him , i bet he (Nun, Holiday, Pseudo, Eid, Rex...) still cannot understand. It's like that, you cannot do anything...it's a hopeless case .
Mos u fshi si miza n?n bishtin e kalit. -- Albanian proverb
Do not hide like a fly under the tail of a horse.
You are an ignorant pretender and cheerleader; answer the questions...
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:07:42 AM
2:183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.
2:184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?
While you have it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.
So yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Likewise apply what was asked in the prior post...
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
1. Does he commence fasting? YES!
2. Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Peace progressive,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 04, 2009, 04:28:53 PM
Also, why the DOUBLE POSTING?
FYI, a full moon IS an object, or do you suggest something different?
Sorry for double posting, i corrected.
no, moon is an object , full moon is an event WHEN that moon object is in FULL STATE. That's what common sense suggests.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 04, 2009, 04:28:53 PM
BTW, what's the problem with not understanding Arabic?
The same problem with not understanding english.
Some may think that "workout" means working outside the office :laugh:
Peace
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 04:45:51 PM
Salaam Samia,
No funny logic is the full moon.
هي she is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance
"she/it is" can refer to any attribute of Qur'an; read context of 74:31 and the verse posted...
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.
Mos u fshi si miza n?n bishtin e kalit. -- Albanian proverb
Do not hide like a fly under the tail of a horse.
I like proverbs..
Here's an arabic one : dhil al kalb 3omro ma yen3idil
the tail of the Dog never gets straight.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 04:45:51 PM
You are an ignorant pretender and cheerleader; answer the questions...
That's what i am doing, answering, not cheerleading :ignore:
salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 04:47:25 PM
no, moon is an object , full moon is an event WHEN that moon object is in FULL STATE. That's what common sense suggests.
It can be both - I just checked dictionary.com
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 04:45:51 PM
Salaam Samia,
No funny logic is the full moon.
هي she is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance
"she/it is" can refer to any attribute of Qur'an; read context of 74:31 and the verse posted...
7:2 كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers.
Salaam Eid
Forget about using 74:31 to prove any arguement because it's the verse in question.
كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين(A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from
it, to warn with
it and a remembrance to the believers).
If you mean that this verse is your proof, what does it prove? It does not even contain (she/it is).
In fact, it proves my point:
منه لتنذر به The two red letters are masculine singular pronouns referring to (A Book). They are the two translated "its" (underlined) in the English version of the verse.
ذكرىis an attribute to the book.There's no other word linked to it in the verse, and so to any one ignorant of Arabic, nothing shows it's feminine.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 04, 2009, 05:03:34 PM
It can be both - I just checked dictionary.com
Thanks God it can be both, so fasting IN THE FULL MOON does make sense, as well as quran descending in A FULL MOON. (the event , not the object)
Thank you very much
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 05:08:19 PM
Thanks God it can be both, so fasting IN THE FULL moon does make sense.
Thank you
That is, of course, if 'shahr' means 'full moon'. And I still dont think that it makes sense, but if you think it makes sense, then so be it.
Anyways, I am looking forward to Ayman's response to my post.
Salam progressive
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 04, 2009, 05:10:41 PM
That is, of course, if 'shahr' means 'full moon'. And I still dont think that it makes sense, but if you think it makes sense, then so be it.
i also (like you did) used dictionnaries to find that "shahr" means full moon.
:handshake:
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 05:13:14 PM
Salam progressive
i also (like you did) used dictionnaries to find that "shahr" means full moon.
:handshake:
Note the
IF in my last post.
BTW: according to PRL, the root of 'shahr' can mean 'full moon' AND 'month' (among other things).
Peace :peace:
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 05:00:09 PM
That's what i am doing, answering, not cheerleading :ignore:
Then answer my prior post not run away like that fly posting nonsense as this...
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 04:21:14 PM
3- hence, "the hot-scorching-big-obvious-reddish-full moon" ie. "shahr Ramadan" is unique because it happens only once in a year, after the summer solstice. the reddish big full moon of December misses at least one important attribute : "hot-scorching"...am i clear enough ?
i thought some people on this forum had problems with understanding arabic, but now i see that they had big problems with english as well :((((((((((
YOU MISSED THIS BIG ONE LAST YEAR 3 DAYS BEFORE THE SOLSTICE!
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
The full moon which occurs sometimes 28 days after solstice will be a baby moon compared to the above.
Salaam Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 05:07:23 PM
Salaam Eid
Forget about using 74:31 to prove any arguement because it's the verse in question.
كتاب انزل اليك فلا يكن في صدرك حرج منه لتنذر به وذكرى للمؤمنين
(A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance to the believers).
If you mean that this verse is your proof, what does it prove? It does not even contain (she/it is).
No, put it all together, both are a remembrance...
74:31...
هي she/it is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the humanNow give us your honest opinion of Ayman's assertion which lead to the above off topic...
2:183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu
alssiyamuO you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.
2:184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra
falyasumhu?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?
While Ayman has it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain,
the abstinence.
So yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Does the above logic look correct to you Samia?
Likewise Samia please apply logic to what was asked in numerous prior posts and tell us if this is correct...
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
1. Does he commence fasting? YES!
2. Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Peace
Peace Eid, all,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
This is a very good point and furthermore proves that 'shahr' means 'month'. Here you go:
58:1 God has heard the woman who argues with you regarding her husband, and she complains to God. God hears the argument between you. God is Hearer, Seer.
58:2 Those among you who estrange their wives by saying to them: "You are as my mother." They can never be as their mothers, for their mothers are the women who gave birth to them. Indeed, they are uttering what is strange and a falsehood. God is Pardoner, Forgiver.
58:3 Those who had estranged their wives in this manner, then they again repeat it, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. This is to enlighten you. God is well aware of everything you do.
58:4 However, he who does not have the means shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to do it shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would acknowledge God and His messenger. These are the limits set by God. Those who do not appreciate have incurred a painful retribution.
58:4 Faman lam yajid fasiyamushahrayni mutatabiAAayni min qabli an yatamassafaman lam yastatiAA fa-itAAamu sitteenamiskeenan thalika litu/minoo biAllahiwarasoolihi watilka hudoodu Allahi walilkafireenaAAathabun aleemun.Feeding 60 needy people equates to to fasting for two 'shahrs' ('shahrayn') (months), in the above case.
Quote from: Samia on September 03, 2009, 09:44:49 PM
Salaam farida
As I explained, I was following the thread closely,aka reading, albeit not participating.What new opinions were there? I was not talking about new posts nor new posters. And I was definitely not put off by Ayman's posts. The pleasure is mine :)
Salaam Samia
Now you too are playing Ayman's game asking me to spell out for you ...naughty naughty :nope:
QuoteHowever, it seems you did not understand my post. I liked your rendition on "sana" and "3aam" as defined by natural events (harvest and flood) not name nor number of days. Same for day (sun/sunrise-sunset - darkness), again no name or number of hours.Then suddenly a month with a name and anumber of days? Only one month? Why didn't we have the name of the month of hajj.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we are required to fast a lunar month, which started with the first event of Ramadan (hottest time) when the Qur'an was revealed. This month drifts each year by 11 days (or 12 days in case of leap year). Approximately every 33 years it completes its cycle, returning to the position it had when the Qur?an was first revealed, and that is when we are to seek the night of power.So seeking Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather.
Read again word for word and you will find that Ramadan is only mentioned with regard to the revelation of the Qur?an2:185 ?A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion
Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.......? this section is about the month that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birthmonth) The complete count is from crescent to crescent from birth to death that is the most natural cycle and there is no other explanation what so ever.
QuoteWhy didn't we have the name of the month of hajj
Because hajj is not linked to any special divine event; rather it's a yearly event just like our moon/month of fasting, which has with time become known as Ramadan.QuoteEtymology was of course noticed by me and I think you mentioned it in more than a post.
:yes
QuoteEven the etymology of month: starts with the noun "moon" not crescent.The "th" serves as "relative to/ related to" as in "sixth" for example. It did not start with "crescent", so, as in Arabic, it has nothing to do with crescent nor with number of days
@
quickduck and allWe should not worry about pre-Quranic language as we follow the language mentioned in the great reading and the English term ?full moon? is not the term used in Arabic, or in any language associated with Arabic, like Urdu.(fusion of mainly Arabic, Persian and Sanscrit)
In Urdu month and moon is also referred to as Ashahra.(3hahra)[/u] The cycle is mainly divided into three parts Awwal Ashahra, Thanni Ashahra [/u] and Aakhri Ashahra. The term ?full moon? has no basis in the Qu?an. Ayman too acknowledged that English, is not a language mentioned in the great reading.
Reply #858 on Page 58:
Whether we like it or not we all use ?extra-Quranic sources?. You just used a computer to type this and you used English, which is not a language mentioned in the great. As I said, it comes down to knowing the limitations of the various other sources. What I also found out is that the sources that are truthful have never contradicted the great reading .
QuoteHowever, my question is: How can you prove that a month called Ramadan is what God is talking about? Where did you get it when it was never mentioned in any of the previous scriptures, nor had any other "month" been mentioned before,nor do we have any more information abou its position in the year,its number of days...?
Why would a people call a month (scorching) when it's as scorching as well as cold as any other month?
I think I?ll leave it to you to ponder on this point. You never know; one day you may be able to come up with substantial evidence to prove us wrong in following the order of the months firmly established by the Prophet during his stay with us (previous generation)..
QuoteI just hope that you honestly try to give it a little thought: Why are we in a mess every year because no one is able to see the "crescent"? .
:nope: Not Me but ?they? are in a mess every year, not because no one is able to see the "crescent", but simply because they rely on disunited corrupt Imams whose strings are pulled by different powers at the top. As for me I just follow the movement of the moon, according to the latest technology, and that is absolutely fine with me, as there is no requirement for everyone to physically witness the crescent.QuoteAlso think of the night the quraan was descended.The time we are supposed to fast was mainly chosen for this event: why start fasting a couple or triple of weeks earlier,and then just guess, if we even think about it, which night is that one better than a thousand moons? Traditioalists do not know it nor care about it tenth as much as they care about the "month of Ramadan"
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous has always been associated with something like the birth of a child, or death or the beginning of married life, so the middle moon, 1/2 moon cannot mean Shahra.
Once the new moon is witnessed we have arrived in that month/moon/shahr. Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)QuoteAnd most of all, why would God link the hajj with crescents and not fasting, yet traditionalists, and unfortunately you, link fasting to crescents and not hajj?
:pr
Bless you Samia for solving the riddle question in an appropriate manner and now I understand what Dr Ayman meant in his bold scripts: crescent moons as per 2:189 to time the "hajj".
: Reply #1307 & Reply #1310 on: September 01, 2009, 07:29:10 AM page 88
And of course his blabbing I guarantee that you will NEVER be able to answer. ::)
If only he could be as civil as you this issue would have been resolved looooong time ago. :'(
I asked myself this question when I was just a kid and could understand the logic and planning behind it: :hail
"
God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" from (2:185)
Hajj is an obligation only for those who can afford it and it requires travelling to a certain destination. There is no requirement to start it from the crescent because Allah(swt) did not want to cause hardship for those who needed time to travel to a far off place.
If Hajj was to start straight away after sighting the crescent, based on the same principle of witnessing the moon, as in Ramadan, then imagine the difficulty and chaos caused for those who must travel from far off places.
You plan your holidays and travel well in advance, but when it comes to pushing your desire over logic you overlook the most obvious.
:pr I do sincerely hope you pay attention to the nature of God who is the best of planners.
Ps: Now please tell your friend Dr Ayman to go and stick his head in the sand. Quote?[/b] You are a lawyer and I expect from a lawyer to start from uncertainty, and work their way forward, not the other way round
Since you mentioned the Lawyer, allow me to educate you; Samia a trespass is a trespass; you cannot sneak into a premises from the backdoor with the excuse that the notice was only displayed in the front yard.
So no fiddling as per 9:36, 37.
9:36. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record......
9:37 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.
:peace:
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:07:42 AMThe point to this pointless exercise is you avoiding to answer how to fast a full-moon.
No the point is that all your arguments are from ignorance. Even an illiterate knows the basics such as the difference between masculine (he/"huwa" and feminine pronouns (she/"hiya") and that they refer to masculine and feminine objects. You have not even reached that level. You are acting like a baby who is still learning "dada" and "mama" but doesn't know pronouns and frankly speaking I am not in the mood for babysitting so don't continue sliding this slippery slope and have the courage to admit that you were wrong otherwise you will lose whatever little credibility you still have and changing your screen name will not help.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:07:42 AM2:183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.
2:184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?
While you have it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.
Both
hu refer back to "the fasting that was dictated on you." This is because there are many types of abstinances. In this case, what was dictated on us is "the fasting of the complete count of a few days".
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:07:42 AMSo yeah a double negative, if your vision is good, you are outdoors in clear weather lucky to see the full moon then avoid the fasting.
Likewise apply what was asked in the prior post...
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
Where does it say "the abstinence of one full-moon"? In 2:185, like in 2:184, the "hu" refers back to "the abstinence that was dictated on you".
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:07:42 AM1. Does he commence fasting? YES!
2. Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
You are again speaking from ignorance. Fortunately, only Progressive1993 buys such arguments :). There is no such thing as a 1:1 relation between feeding the poor and days of abstinence. You obviously never read 5:89 where feeding 10 poor equates to 3 days of fasting (i.e., 3.33:1). I guess we won't be hearing this nonsense from you again.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 04, 2009, 05:56:58 PMThis is a very good point and furthermore proves that 'shahr' means 'month'. Here you go:
58:1 God has heard the woman who argues with you regarding her husband, and she complains to God. God hears the argument between you. God is Hearer, Seer.
58:2 Those among you who estrange their wives by saying to them: "You are as my mother." They can never be as their mothers, for their mothers are the women who gave birth to them. Indeed, they are uttering what is strange and a falsehood. God is Pardoner, Forgiver.
58:3 Those who had estranged their wives in this manner, then they again repeat it, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. This is to enlighten you. God is well aware of everything you do.
58:4 However, he who does not have the means shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to do it shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would acknowledge God and His messenger. These are the limits set by God. Those who do not appreciate have incurred a painful retribution.
58:4 Faman lam yajid fasiyamushahrayni mutatabiAAayni min qabli an yatamassafaman lam yastatiAA fa-itAAamu sitteenamiskeenan thalika litu/minoo biAllahiwarasoolihi watilka hudoodu Allahi walilkafireenaAAathabun aleemun.
Feeding 60 needy people equates to to fasting for two 'shahrs' ('shahrayn') (months), in the above case.
You might want to read 5:89 and then be mature enough to admit it when you are wrong.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
Salaam Samia,
No, put it all together, both are a remembrance...
74:31...هي she/it is الا not except ذكرى a remembrance للبشر to the human
Salaam Eid
(74:31...
هي she/it is الا not except)
What does "she/it is" refer to? It cannot refer to ذكرى since it precedes it. This is against universal grammar of linguistics.
ذكرى is not exclusively linked to the qur'aan. It's mentioned in the quraan several times with no relation to it:
verse: 38:43
وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُ أَهْلَهُ وَمِثْلَهُم مَّعَهُمْ رَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَذِكْرَى لِأُوْلِي الْأَلْبَابِ
And We gave him his people, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for all who have Understanding.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
Now give us your honest opinion of Ayman's assertion which lead to the above off topic...
2:183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.
2:184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?
While Ayman has it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.
If we see it as "linguistically ambiguous" because two m.s nouns precede it,we have to find a reason to support one understanding against the other. For example, if you say : The national banks conference: this is an "ambiguous" sentence unless you can prove whether "national" refers to banks or conference. The almost equal nearness of the adjective to both nouns causes this ambiguity.
Back to your question: In such a case I would personally say it refers to "shahr" since it's the nearest singular masculine to the pronoun.
My answer to the remainder of your post will follow.
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 06:21:01 PM
Peace Progressive1993,
You might want to read 5:89 and then be mature enough to admit it when you are wrong.
Peace,
Ayman
OMG... what is wrong with your inference/deduction/argumentation/logic?!?! You have proven them to be very bad in your last few posts...
5:89 and 58:1-4 are talking about different things, hence there are different methods of redeeming oneself. Are you trying to suggest that there is a contradiction in the Quran?
It is an undeniable fact, that one can fast for
2 'shahrs' (months) or feed
60 if in the situation described in 58:1-4.
Ayman, your theory is a like a bad word...
14:26 The example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has no stability.
I also would like to add that you have yet failed to give proofs of monotheists in the past fasting after having witnessed 'the full moon of scorching heat'.
I think you dont want to respond to my post with red and blue because I have shown you evidence from teh OT that people in Israel fasted in the 9th month of a lunar calendar... wait.. isnt Ramadan the ninth month of the Islamic Lunar Calendar? :hmm
From http://www.submission.org/fasting-bible.html:
[Jeremiah 36:9] "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah,
in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a
fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting.
The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month. The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22,
"Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a
fire on the hearth burning before him."
Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting. ----
Lets see if you continue ignoring..
:peace:
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 06:12:17 PM
In Urdu month and moon is also referred to as Ashahra.(3hahra)[/u] The cycle is mainly divided into three parts Awwal Ashahra, Thanni Ashahra and Aakhri Ashahra.
عشره my dear
عشره
Salaam again Samia & everyone,
In this thread from page 13 I have been raising the question of the blind being excluded, in Ayman?s theory of fasting based on physically witnessing the moon and so far I have not heard you view on this. Go to Ref: page 16
my post Reply #230 on: September 08, 2008, Ayman?s Reply #234 on: September 08,
Finaly my Q in AW Reply #239 on: September 08, 2008, 05:40:00 AM page; 16
AW:There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.
Me: And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward?
Ayman finally obliged me with his reply Page 17, Reply #242 on: September 08,
You are the only one here barring them. What do you have against blind people?
They are certainly not barred but they are not obligated to fast. I hope that you can see the difference. [/size] Peace,Ayman
After that Ayman transferred his job to truthseeker11 who ignored my question and just took over Ayman?s mantra until page: 30 Reply #440 on: September 17, 2008 He wrote this condescending reply regarding the blind
1. You are confusing "witnessing" with "trusting/believing". News can be wrong too. The blind man will be trusting/believing someone else who is giving or printing the news and that cannot be classified as witnessing.
After this reply everyone has ignored these very valuable people of our world ?the blind.?
Now it?s my turn just one question:
So far I have not heard what Samia has to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???
Let me recap: The argument was: ?how can one witness a month?? so it must, here, imply the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan". And ?those among you who witnessed?. Excludes all who fail to physicaly see the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan". WHICH OF COURSE EXCLUDES THE BLIND EVEN IF THEY ARE MORE EAGER TO FAST THAN THE REST.
I see that you definitely believe that God did not disapprove of you because of menstruation, yet you assume this same God would exclude the blind from his design when it comes to fasting and the night of power?
I know my God does not leave out those without sight; those who are blinded by their desires are another matter
Before I go let me draw your attention to a very good discussion going on http://freeminds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598988.msg220254#msg220254
Your original forum member Siki raised very good question;
Isnt 56-79 talking about, "Grasping the real spirit/message within quran by only those who have a pure heart? or , you think it is physically touching/holding the written/printed script?
And don"t tell me that women going through periods cant touch/read quran?
we need to sort this out. siki
Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 07:30:01 PM
salam!
Do you mean to say that menstruating women cannot touch the quran (for which wadu is not obligatory) but can pray which requires wadu? In my opinion something is not right here.
What you are saying regarding "prohibition on physically touching quran in state of "Jannaba" , I am not too sure about it , let us invite some more views.siki Reply #11 on: Today at 04:25:47 AM
Your friend there surly understands the nature of offence towards women and I am sure you too are familiar with humiliation; a woman forbidden to fast or pray due to menstruation may feel.
Your lot have a funny logic!
36:8 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
36:10 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
:peace:
Thanks RH for putting it in Urdu properly ;D
Peace Farida,
You keep using the translation that uses "fast therein" to justify that "shahr" means a month.
I don't mind repeat it again :
original arabic verse reads : falyasumhu (fast IT ), not falyasum feehi (Fast therein)..
You are free to believe that this is a small useless detail, but sorry, it makes all the difference.
"IT" links to an EVENT (shahr) while THEREIN links to a periode (month)
We are so close to find the truth if only you admit this simple Fact. Unfortunatly, ....hopeless.
Salam
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
Likewise Samia please apply logic to what was asked in numerous prior posts and tell us if this is correct...
58:3-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor
The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
1. Does he commence fasting? YES!
2. Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
3. Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Salaam Eid
I do not see that there's a question of logic here. He can wait for the full moon and start fasting; just like a divorcee has to wait until her first menstruation and then count her days. And like the mestruating woman,he has to wait and not sleep with his wife until the fasting is over.
3- Has God told us that a day of fasting = feeding 1 poor? I can only agree with you if you show me this equation.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!Yes, that's why we need to be told, in this case, how many days to fast after having witnessed the shahr. If not, then there's no fasting. This number of days is usually not told when (two consecutive shahrs) are mentioned, since we already have a definitive period.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:18:31 AMQuote from: aymanIn all likelihood, Umar and all the so-called Sahaba never met the prophet.
False! Read history, PERF 558, and inscription in 24 AH
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/18/islamic-inscription.html
Once again you ignore to read the very links that you provide:
1. Where does it say in PERF558 or the inscription that the year is AH? Can you copy and paste the transcription and underline the word "hijri"?
2. Where does it say that Umar met the prophet?
3. Where does it say when the prophet was born or when he died?
It is obvious that you are only seeing what is in your head and not what is actually in PERF558 or the inscription.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:18:31 AMThis has ZERO to with it; summer solstice happened in the 12th month Dhu al-Hijjah in that year which was the year of the migration and the 1st month Muharram happened on July 16 that year.
Are you seriously that clueless? Why do you think the next summer solstice happened 12 months later? What is the new moon crescent on July 16? Is it the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice? YES or NO.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:18:31 AMIt has already been shown you that if you roll back PERF 558 only 10 years after the prophet (pbuh) left using new moon data the precise date of the start of new era which aligns perfectly with historical dates.
As I showed you before, this is a circular argument but you are too ignorant to see it and I am not going to repeat what I said. Go read my previous reply on this.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:18:31 AMThey knew the months (well known)
What months ?well known?? Please provide any evidence. If they were well known prior to 1 AH then please show a single manuscript or inscription dating to prior to 1AH which shows those months names. On the other hand, read the following pre 1AH inscriptions and see the well-known months mentioned:
552CE (just 18 years before traditions claim the prophet was born):
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Month name: Zu A'allan (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but ?warkh?)
326CE
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html
Month name: Kaslul.
267CE
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.htm
Month name: Tammouz (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but consistent with the 552CE inscription ?yarkh?)
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 04, 2009, 12:18:31 AMand could have chosen the 1st month in any year to start the era; e.g. if they picked the year of PERF 558 then our friend would have written year 1 AH instead of year 22 which shows they used a lunar calendar at the time and obliterates the hot moon...
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
...
28-Nov 1. Muharram 22 AH
The above data cannot be denied and no need to lie about receiving sheep at the end of the month.
No the dates of the lunar calendar get pushed back by 1 month every three years. If they picked the year of PERF558 as 1AH for starting a purely lunar calendar then the 22 years difference would result in Ramadhan coming 7 months later and it would have been in what is now the month of Rabii Al-Thani in the spring and Farida and you wouldn?t be so cranky. :)
I hope that you can now appreciate the complete arbitrariness of your manmade calendar.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 06:45:09 PM
Peace Farida,
You keep using the translation that uses "fast therein" to justify that "shahr" means a month.
I don't mind repeat it again :
original arabic verse reads : falyasumhu (fast IT ), not falyasum feehi (Fast therein)..
You are free to believe that this is a small useless detail, but sorry, it makes all the difference.
"IT" links to an EVENT (shahr) while THEREIN links to a periode (month)
We are so close to find the truth if only you admit this simple Fact. Unfortunatly, ....hopeless.
Salam
Peace
Please lodge your complaint with these people,
Free_Minds:A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.I knew already that you cannot see beyond that:
36:8 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
36:10 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
:peace:
Peace Ayman,
we are off-topic, but i will not readily jump to conclusion regarding the close companions of Mohammed having met him if I were you.
Unless you have hard factual evidence, that is, and by the way 20 years is not such a long period.
So it is acceptable that the reporters like Bukhari & co are as easy to rule out as John, Mark, Luke and Paul in the case of Jesus, but
I will be careful with regards to Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Zeyd.
As for Abraha's stone, one single piece of evidence is not enough in my view.
Sometimes, we get blessed with "accidental" discoveries such as the Qumran caves where a lot of artifacts and scrolls were found, but alas hijacked by the Israelis (which is very strange as a good deal of those caves where on the Jordan side of the Dead Sea), and so a lot of the discoveries (most probably the most controversial ones, as they include writings of the Pentateuch at least 1000 years older than the oldest records we have) are now off limits.
So until either there is archaeological and forensic historical works being systematically done on these matters, we are currently condemned to rely on crumbs we may find that transpire as side lines from research done on subjects of older studies not always very pertinent to our interest.
Peace
Nabil
Salaam farida
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 06:12:17 PM
So seeking Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather.
Read again word for word and you will find that Ramadan is only mentioned with regard to the revelation of the Qur?an2:185 ?A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion
Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.......? this section is about the month that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birthmonth) The complete count is from crescent to crescent from birth to death that is the most natural cycle and there is no other explanation what so ever.
So the only description I know for this month is that it is "marked by heat". How can I witness it then when this Ramadan is "marked by cold"? This will not be the "ramadan" described in the quraan. To respect its description AND keep the lunar calendar, I have to fast it every 33 years, just the way you suggest we should seek Leilatul qadr, which, by the way, is closely linked to "Ramadaan", however we understand ramadaan.
Quoteone day you may be able to come up with substantial evidence to prove us wrong in following the order of the months firmly established by the Prophet during his stay with us (previous generation)..
Why are you sure that you are following what the prophet established for you when it's neither in the quraan nor in hadith which you do not even accept?
QuoteShiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous has always been associated with something like the birth of a child, or death or the beginning of married life, so the middle moon, 1/2 moon cannot mean Shahra.
Once the new moon is witnessed we have arrived in that month/moon/shahr. Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)
You missed one important definition: volumenous wide woman.
Who is talking of middle,1/2 moon? Even this 1/2moon is more easily "detected" than a crescent
All these events do not need an extra way of declaration.You know them without using a detective (telescope in your case to see the crescent).
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope :nope:
Quote"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" from (2:185)
Hajj is an obligation only for those who can afford it and it requires travelling to a certain destination. There is no requirement to start it from the crescent because Allah(swt) did not want to cause hardship for those who needed time to travel to a far off place.
If Hajj was to start straight away after sighting the crescent, based on the same principle of witnessing the moon, as in Ramadan, then imagine the difficulty and chaos caused for those who must travel from far off places.
You plan your holidays and travel well in advance, but when it comes to pushing your desire over logic you overlook the most obvious.
Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
The verse I asked you about does not have a commandment requiring quoting 2:185. It's a question and answer. Why can't we equally use 2:185 when we believe that God is "commanding us to witness a crescent"? In fact, hajj is not a "religious" obligation, just like timing for people in their affairs. Since you know it's a hardship to people to observe the crescent, and God does not want to bring us hardship, it's more logical that He does not make it a condition on a religious obligation. Your logic is really contradictory here. This is just like traditionalists circular arguemnet when asked why women have to abstinate from fasting and salaat when God answered a question to people concerning menustations and did not mention abstention from salaat nor fasting
Quote9:36. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record.
Since you know that a "sana/ year" is defined according to the quraan from harvest to harvest, and since the 12"months" of the lunar calender do not fulfill this definition, therefore the 12 "months" in God's record mentioned in this verse do not equal a lunar year.
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 07:33:05 PM
Peace
Please lodge your complaint with these people,
Free_Minds:A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
I knew already that you cannot see beyond that:
36:8 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
36:10 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
:peace:
No matter if this translation is RK's , Free-minds', Ayman's or Farida's . therein = feehi . hence, this translation is false and should be corrected.
Can you do me a favor ? you seem to have a huge knowledge on forum matters, can you please tell free-minds translators to correct this . Of course if you agree that therein = feehi .
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 07:33:05 PM
I knew already that you cannot see beyond that:
36:8 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
36:10 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
:peace:
Here comes the grown beard imam again, hallelujah !!
P.S : if only the quran was revealed in URDU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 07:50:18 PM
No matter if this translation is RK's , Free-minds', Ayman's or Farida's . therein = feehi . hence, this translation is false and should be corrected.
Can you do me a favor ? you seem to have a huge knowledge on forum matters, can you please tell free-minds translators to correct this . Of course if you agree that therein = feehi .
Salam
Peace
You do your own dirty work.
:peace:
Peace
@ Farida
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 07:54:56 PM
Peace
You do your own dirty work.
:peace:
Correcting mistranslated verses are now dirty work ? i'll dare do it . And proud of it.
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 07:49:04 PM
Salaam farida
So the only description I know for this month is that it is "marked by heat". How can I witness it then when this Ramadan is "marked by cold"? This will not be the "ramadan" described in the quraan. To respect its description AND keep the lunar calendar, I have to fast it every 33 years, just the way you suggest we should seek Leilatul qadr, which, by the way, is closely linked to "Ramadaan", however we understand ramadaan.
Why are you sure that you are following what the prophet established for you when it's neither in the quraan nor in hadith which you do not even accept?
You missed one important definition: volumenous wide woman.
Who is talking of middle,1/2 moon? Even this 1/2moon is more easily "detected" than a crescent
All these events do not need an extra way of declaration.You know them without using a detective (telescope in your case to see the crescent).
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope :nope:
Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
The verse I asked you about does not have a commandment requiring quoting 2:185. It's a question and answer. Why can't we equally use 2:185 when we believe that God is "commanding us to witness a crescent"? In fact, hajj is not a "religious" obligation, just like timing for people in their affairs. Since you know it's a hardship to people to observe the crescent, and God does not want to bring us hardship, it's more logical that He does not make it a condition on a religious obligation. Your logic is really contradictory here. This is just like traditionalists circular arguemnet when asked why women have to abstinate from fasting and salaat when God answered a question to people concerning menustations and did not mention abstention from salaat nor fasting
Since you know that a "sana/ year" is defined according to the quraan from harvest to harvest, and since the 12"months" of the lunar calender do not fulfill this definition, therefore the 12 "months" in God's record mentioned in this verse do not equal a lunar year.
Salaam Samia
Enough of dirty tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not babble like your friend we need solid evidence not your tarnished interpretation.However I asked you one simple Question in my post above; Reply #1436 on:
What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ??? :peace:
Ps: Take a deep breath and read again I said fast every year only night of power 33yrs.Pay attention at two differnt situation in 2:185
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Go do your own DIRTY Work
Enough of DIRTY tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not BABBLE like your friend we need solid evidence not your TARNISHED interpretation.
:peace:
We all should go have a bath or take a shower as farida started to see everyone and everything dirty in here.
Quote from: quickduck on September 04, 2009, 08:22:05 PM
We all should go have a bath or take a shower as farida started to see everyone and everything dirty in here.
What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???
Peace all,
To Ayman and Samia, the following verse is very well established:
10:5 هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم يعلمون
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.
Is this not enough to end this debate, if you truly believe in God's Quran.
Peace
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 08:27:05 PM
What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???
Peace Farida, all
No one is obliged to do anything.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's temple and saying do so , or think so.
It's all in our heads, mental filters, so dug in that we have great difficulties
being open to dialogue.
As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
rely on others or other means anyways...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
:rotfl:
Peace
Quote from: theNabster on September 04, 2009, 08:43:12 PM
Peace Farida, all
No one is obliged to do anything.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's temple and saying do so , or think so.
It's all in our heads, mental filters, so dug in that we have great difficulties
being open to dialogue.
...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
:rotfl:
Peace
Salaam,
Of course there is no compulsion in religion.
QuoteAs for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
really on others or other means anyways
Exactly but Ayman theory excludes all those who have not literally seen the scorching moon so if its cloudy no fasting, if you happen to be indoor while SS moon was out there ..No Fasting
However if a toddler happens to physically witness than technically he is suppose to fast :rotfl:
Also ::) :Ayamn ...Reply #229 on: September 07, 2008 Page 16
If you are nearer to the tropic of cancer then the scorching full moon would be with the northern hemisphere. If you are nearer to the tropic of capricon then the scorching full moon would be with the southern hemisphere. I think that if you are exactly on the equator then you have the choice to fast either with the northern or the southern hemispheres :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
For more funny ideas please read from Page 13 onward of this very thread. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
God bless
Quote from: belH on September 04, 2009, 08:34:33 PM
Peace all,
To Ayman and Samia, the following verse is very well established:
10:5 هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم يعلمون
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.
Is this not enough to end this debate, if you truly believe in God's Quran.
Peace
Salaam belH
No one is denying the "moon" as a marker for time. But do not deny the specificty of the sun in counting the years as per:
17:12
وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِّتَبْتَغُواْ فَضْلاً مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاًWe have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail
Which should make you re-read verse 10:5 in the following way to avoid any contradiction:
10:5
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم يعلمونHe is the One who
has made the sun a radiance and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases, that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.
Quote from: theNabster on September 04, 2009, 08:43:12 PM
Peace Farida, all
As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
rely on others or other means anyways...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
:rotfl:
Peace
Salaam again brother
You can see on 16 where I argued:
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against himI said in my post above: Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)
But NOOOO as you can see Samia above replied:
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 07:49:04 PM
Salaam farida
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope :nope:
Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
Now what can I say to the illogicality of their logic :brickwall:
Good night and God bless
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on September 03, 2009, 09:26:34 AMSo guest was right in his Reply #968 on page 65;
The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that
This only proves that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. The same exact thing can be said about Christianity and its hero Paul:
Jesus as the son of god was established firmly by the Prophet Jesus during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Paul invented that Jesus is the son of god without any valid evidence. Paul is the one who was a desciple with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon Christianity religion like you suggest using the example ?he claimed that Jesus is the son of god?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that If a much more drastic lie such as the one about Jesus can be invented, then the order of the months in an arbitrary calendar is the simplest thing to invent.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 08:59:19 PM
Salaam belH
No one is denying the "moon" as a marker for time. But do not deny the specificty of the sun in counting the years as per:
17:12
وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِّتَبْتَغُواْ فَضْلاً مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاً
We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail
Which should make you re-read verse 10:5 in the following way to avoid any contradiction:
10:5 هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم يعلمون
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases, that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.
peace,
therefore, we should use the Sun Phases, Day Light and Night, and the Moon Phases, the moon cycle, to measure the Year.
Now, the year consists of DAYS and 12 Months.
Is it logic to say that the Day would be measured by the Sun Phases, Day light and Night, and the Month phases to measure the month boundaries?
If you think we should use the Sun Phases to measure the Month and the Moon to measure the Day, please explain of how this could happend?
Quote from: farida on September 04, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Salaam Samia
Enough of dirty tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not babble like your friend we need solid evidence not your tarnished interpretation.
However I asked you one simple Question in my post above; Reply #1436 on:
What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???
:peace:
Ps: Take a deep breath and read again I said fast every year only night of power 33yrs.Pay attention at two differnt situation in 2:185
You are reverting to foul language ...and to the old bankrupt farida we know, but you seem to have forgotten that you could not then, and cannot now frighten anybody in the hope of shutting them up.You are the one who is frightened.
You really lost your nerves when you protest why I am not answering a question which is on a later post of yours, not the one I was responding to.
My post was answering yours paragraph by paragraph. If you think it was going into circles, look at yourself, not at me.
Night of power? What on earth is that?
ليلة القوة :rotfl:
You are the one who is need of a deep breath... and some manners.
Good bye.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 04, 2009, 02:05:51 PMPerhaps you forgot to take a good look at the picture of December 2008 full moon I cited. You will find it reddish in color. Enough said.
You sound like you think that the moon rocks actually turn reddish. Why does the moon appear reddish? If you knew then you wouldn't make such silly comment.
Quote from: guest on September 04, 2009, 02:05:51 PMNo, I am asking you good and intelligent questions. But you are the one who is asking irrelevant and poor questions. You have created a fictitious problem and an imaginary solution. The house you created is worst than that of the spider house.
I am in agreement with the 8th Dhu Al-Hijj. The point I was trying to make with the new moon crescent is the front door vs. the back door. The new moon looks like this: ----) which is easily mapped to main entrance (welcome) or front of a house. As opposed to your crescent which looks like this: -------- ( showing the back entrance.
Let's be clear. So you are in agreement that the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijjah is an arbitrary false time for "hajj" that blatantly violates 2:189? So when will you perform your "hajj", please tell us?
Quote from: guest on September 04, 2009, 02:05:51 PMHere is the definition of crescent: A moon that is between a half moon and a new moon.
http://www.go-astronomy.com/glossary/astronomy-glossary-c.htm
That?s why I said hajj start and end in crescent moon. I am using your translation "crescent" to defeat your theory. Per the definition you don?t get 25 days of hajj. You are totally confused.
Your mapping of full moon to front door is irrelevant because it violates the definition of crescent.
The definition of the crescent is clearly given in 36:39:
36:39
وَالْقَمَرَ قَدَّرْنَاهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّى عَادَ كَالْعُرْجُونِ الْقَدِيمِ
And the moon We have measured it in descending stages, until it becomes like an old curved sheath.Doesn't sound like a half-moon since the half moon is not like an old curved sheath. As I said, the only way the crescent can be used to time the 10 day period of "hajj" is if the starting point was the full-moon and the end point was the crescent.
Quote from: guest on September 04, 2009, 02:05:51 PMThis off-topic. Please open another thread if you want to discuss hajj.
It is off-topic because you are clueless about the connection between "hajj" and "alash-hur al-haram" and "al-hajj" and 2:189 because the arbitrary sectarian calendar has nothing to do with the real "hajj" or 2:189.
Quote from: guest on September 04, 2009, 02:05:51 PMThe God already told us that ?The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit (36:40). You are the one who is disobeying Him.
Floating in its own orbit doesn't mean that we should ignore the sun and ignore 17:12 which indicates that the year is solar. You are clearly hanging at straws and as I said, whether you like it or not, you follow a solar calendar for all practical purposes. So either stop being a hypocrite or start planting crops and wearing heavy clothes according to the purely lunar calendar.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 04, 2009, 10:19:10 PM
peace,
therefore, we should use the Sun Phases, Day Light and Night, and the Moon Phases, the moon cycle, to measure the Year.
Now, the year consists of DAYS and 12 Months.
Is it logic to say that the Day would be measured by the Sun Phases, Day light and Night, and the Month phases to measure the month boundaries?
If you think we should use the Sun Phases to measure the Month and the Moon to measure the Day, please explain of how this could happend?
And what are the sun phases? God did not mention such a thing.
We have to agree that the year is mainly measured by the sun when the sign of the night is obsecured, i.e not apparent. We cannot speak of a full moon being (obsecured) and a crescent being apparent.
The only way to keep the moon and the sun for the measure of years is to use the "apparent" scorching moon to start the year (since this is the only moon mentioned as a marker) and the cycle of the sun to measure the length of the year.
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 10:52:40 PM
The only way to keep the moon and the sun for the measure of years is
Please give us a clear answer to this (please choose from Sun Phases or Moon, as you are instructed by Quran):
How would we measure the Day?
How Would we Measure the Month?
How would we measure the Year?
Peace Nabil,
Quote from: theNabster on September 04, 2009, 07:35:11 PMwe are off-topic, but i will not readily jump to conclusion regarding the close companions of Mohammed having met him if I were you.
Unless you have hard factual evidence, that is, and by the way 20 years is not such a long period.
The burden of proof is on those who claim that those people met the prophet (a positive). I don't have to prove a negative (see the logical fallacy of negative proof). The topic is about timing and some on this thread have claimed that the sectarian arbitrary calendar was established by the prophet. We can empirically verify that corruption took place since the traditional Umar calendar is completely baseless and has nothing to do with the great reading. If indeed Umar established this corrupt calendar full of lies then he couldn't be one of the followers of the messenger (who would have followed the message).
Quote from: theNabster on September 04, 2009, 07:35:11 PMSo it is acceptable that the reporters like Bukhari & co are as easy to rule out as John, Mark, Luke and Paul in the case of Jesus, but
I will be careful with regards to Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Zeyd.
Actually, we should be LESS careful with those guys. At least we have the writings of Bukhari and thus we know that at least he existed. For all we know, most of those guys didn't even exist.
Two people that we know existed are Umar and Ali. The writings we have about Umar come from the Romans (describing the invasion of Jerusalem during his time) and the Jews (greatly praising him for being a champion of Zionism). Ali is mentioned in one source that talks about the Arab civil wars but he is called Abu Turab (not Abu Talib) and he is described as the Prince of Hira (present day Southwest Iraq). So even the little we know about those figures contradicts traditions about them.
Interestingly, the Roman sources also say that the kingdom of the Arabs started invading their teritories in 620-621CE when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year. According to traditions, at that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet! so the traditional dating is definitely problematic and putting all the evidence that we have together we can be pretty certain that the traditional calendar is not based on the actual year of the "hijra" but on a later date. Since this is a discussion about the timing and the validity of the traditional calendar, then all this is certainly relevant. For further reading, I would suggest that you get the book "Seeing Islam as Others Saw it" by Hoyland.
It always amazes me that people believe that everyone who held any political position during those days is a cousin of the prophet or is related by marriage. I bet that its all just political propaganda and lies much like the kings of Jordan and Morocco and anyone who pays $300 to get a certified family tree that he is one of the so-called Ashraf.
Quote from: theNabster on September 04, 2009, 07:35:11 PMAs for Abraha's stone, one single piece of evidence is not enough in my view.
This is not a single piece of evidence. This inscription correlates with other inscriptions that he left in southern Arabia. For example, there is another inscription on a dam that he built and the dates correlate with this inscription.
Quote from: theNabster on September 04, 2009, 07:35:11 PMSometimes, we get blessed with "accidental" discoveries such as the Qumran caves where a lot of artifacts and scrolls were found, but alas hijacked by the Israelis (which is very strange as a good deal of those caves where on the Jordan side of the Dead Sea), and so a lot of the discoveries (most probably the most controversial ones, as they include writings of the Pentateuch at least 1000 years older than the oldest records we have) are now off limits.
So until either there is archaeological and forensic historical works being systematically done on these matters, we are currently condemned to rely on crumbs we may find that transpire as side lines from research done on subjects of older studies not always very pertinent to our interest.
Actually, there are thousands of pre-Islamic inscriptions all over Arabia. So the problem is not lack of inscriptions or that we only have crumbs. The problem is that none of the inscriptions confirms the traditional accounts and in fact many inscriptions outright contradict it (as in the case of Abraha's inscription).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace BelH,
Although the answer was not adressed at me, but let me please answer
Quote from: belH on September 04, 2009, 11:09:12 PM
Please give us a clear answer to this (please choose from Sun Phases or Moon, as you are instructed by Quran):
How would we measure the Day?
How Would we Measure the Month?
How would we measure the Year?
How would we measure the Day? The Day is the time frame between the sunrise and the sunset.
How Would we Measure the Month? The month is the time frame between 2 (obvious) markers ie the full moon.
How would we measure the Year? the year is solar, because the best way that we have to calculate it is to count the time frame between 2 (obvious) markers i.e : the summer solstices . Therefor it follows the seasons and is used by everyone on this earth for daily life purposes.
The sun (solstice) is THE obvious marker for counting the years and the moon ( full moon ) is THE obvious marker for counting the months.
BUT..... , 9:36 talks about counting twelve full-moons, ( not months) , in GOD'S RECORD (Different from 12.3 that you actually count). so we should count EXACTLY twelve full moons (not months ) to fullfil this commandement and to keep in sync with the solar year (seasons) . Eventually we'll have to skip the occasional 13 th full moon (again not month) to acknowledge the God's will, and to keep in sync with that (natural) solar year , and hence the result is :
1 - Ramadan will always occur at the same "hot" time of the year, and will not drift away and all around.
2- The restricted full moons ( i think you got it now that it cannot be months) will always be consecutive and will always sync with the mating season of the wild life.
3- Hajj will always be in the same period of the year (ie. the harvest, in order to witness the benefits of Allah and remember and thank Him) and will always be between early summer and early fall, (yes , GOd Allowed us to do the hajj whenever one wants within the 4 restricted full-moons (you know what :bravo:) . Moreover i think that's why fighting is not allowed in this periode (harvest) to let people gather their food. and it will be unfair to attack people while they are harvesting.
@farida,
i totally agree with you about witnessing the full moon /month :) is not by physical sight, but by being present at that time. Thus the blind should fast if someone tell him that the obvious "marker" (full moon, not month nor crescent, still following me ?) has come . I can't remember if Ayman really said the opposite. can you please quote him . had he said this, i won't agree with him.
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 11:34:03 PM
It always amazes me that people believe that everyone who held any political position during those days is a cousin of the prophet or is related by marriage. I bet that its all just political propaganda and lies much like the kings of Jordan and Morocco and anyone who pays $300 to get a certified family tree that he is one of the so-called Ashraf.
Ayman
So true !!! until nowadays, the "ashrafs" demand to be treated differently as they think themselves superior. They even pay for it !!!!!
It's so true in Morocco where i live . Thanks !
Salam
Peace Quickduck,
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 12:40:08 AM2- The restricted full moons ( i think you got it now that it cannot be months) will always be consecutive and will always sync with the mating season of the wild life.
It is actually not about the mating season. It is about the time when humans are the biggest threat to wildlife and at the same time humans who rely on hunting can survive on other sources (livestock and harvest of cultivated and naturally occuring plants). The time when humans are the biggest threat is the season right after animals give birth. A newborn animal is inexperienced and is a much easier catch for hunters. Young animals can't regulate their body temperature very well and are thus much more likely to suffer heat exhaustion in the heat of the summer when chased by hunters. 5:93 makes it clear that the animals that are hunted during the time of the restriction may be EASY to catch even by HAND. Also, killing the wild animals' mother will likely result in the death of all her newborns. The time when human hunters are the biggest threat to most animals is early summer - early fall. This is why not just today but even ancient civilizations resumed hunting in the fall (with the Hunter Full-Moon).
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 12:40:08 AM3- Hajj will always be in the same period of the year (ie. the harvest, in order to witness the benefits of Allah and remember and thank Him) and will always be between early summer and early fall, (yes , GOd Allowed us to do the hajj whenever one wants within the 4 restricted full-moons (you know what :bravo:).
With this proper understanding of the timing everything falls into place. Now we can see why 80% of the passages that talk about "hajj" are talking about food. The "hajj" is essentially a "harvest feast" and this is how the people of the book understood it. In Hebrew "hagg" = feast. This is why we can invite ALL people with the feast while no one will come to a religious pilgrimage except people from a certain religion.
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 12:40:08 AMMoreover i think that's why fighting is not allowed in this periode (harvest) to let people gather their food. and it will be unfair to attack people while they are harvesting.
Fighting is NEVER allowed except in self-defense. It is unfair to attack people at any time. So fighting has nothing to do with the restriction period as per 2:217.
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 12:40:08 AM@farida,
i totally agree with you about witnessing the full moon /month :) is not by physical sight, but by being present at that time. Thus the blind should fast if someone tell him that the obvious "marker" (full moon, not month nor crescent, still following me ?) has come . I can't remember if Ayman really said the opposite. can you please quote him . had he said this, i won't agree with him.
I think that Farida never reviewed a legal contract in her life. If she did then she would have understood the difference between "not obligated to do something" and "cannot do something". According to 2:185 those who witnessed the full-moon should fast. This doesn't mean that those who didn't witness it can't fast. They could fast but they are not oligated to. Even Farida is not obligated to fast if she didn't witness the scorching full-moon but she can fast anyway.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace ayman,
You are right about the difference between "not obligated to do" and "cannot do". But i still believe that "witness" in this verse is not by sight.
In arabic , there are two verbes that have the same root, Shin-Ha-dal : shahida and shaahada ! شهد andشاهد :
Only the form شاهد (shaahada) means witnessing by sight, while شهد (shahida) doesn't require sightin. eg :
3-18 : شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ ...
Peace
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 02:51:53 AM
Peace ayman,
You are right about the difference between "not obligated to do" and "cannot do". But i still believe that "witness" in this verse is not by sight.
In arabic , there are two verbes that have the same root, Shin-Ha-dal : shahida and shaahada ! شهد andشاهد :
Only the form شاهد (shaahada) means witnessing by sight, while شهد (shahida) doesn't require sightin. eg :
3-18 : شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ ...
Peace
same is my opinion,
Moreover , I think this shahida business is basically conveying,
"When the full moon of scorching heat visits your area , you should fast" This precludes the possibility of a
globally coordinated fast by submitters.
He very clearly says ,
"That it is for your benefit , if only you knew". So there is a fair possibility that along with other benefits it does some thing good to a human body. There is a fair chance that a certain minimum duration may be a prerequisite, which could only be achieved during longest days (14-16 hours)
A supporting reason could be the
"extreme starting and ending markers for the fast" ( first light to last light) extending the duration to Maximum possible ,whereas he could have given us more prominent markers (sun rise , sun set) for this purpose,
But He did NOT.
(BTW, I do not agree with ayman for ending fast at sun set. after a detailed study i am fully convinced that it is layal, not sun set, and the layal does not begin at sun set)
Now , when we understand the reason/spirit behind this divine instruction, and we can predict the shahar with precision for every region, so in my opinion there is no need to see the shahar.
siki
Peace Bro Ayman, Sis Samia, All,
I will put my stall and finally state my stand.
You have firmly convinced me about when the fast as referred in the Quran is to be fasted,
i.e. the marker being ramadan, first full moon after the summer equinox, until its disappearance.
My mother Allah bless her soul, used to tell me that Layaltul Qadr was a very short night in the year,
this was from oral tradition from bedouin tribes in the sahara desert, and so even though this does
not constitute a proof, for me it nevertheless constitutes a sign that it has to be in summer.
Jazakumallah khairan for this piece of valuable ijtihad, and I am so convinced that I will start
enjoining those who ask to fast this way.
Ayman, I did not pay for my genealogical trees, my ancestors are well known tribes who roam the sahara deserts,
and who originate from the arabian peninsula, among their bloodlines are Sidi Mhamed Mussa, Sidi Ahmed Rguibi
(who gave rise to the famous Rguibettes or Rguibi tribe) and of course further up prior to that Mulay Idriss I founder of present day Morocco who played a prominent role in the islamisation of Spain. The last tribe before they got urbanised was the tribe of my grand father on my father side who was called Oulad Sidi Salah. - My grand father was chief of his tribe and grand chief of all the adjoining tribes in the region (Qaid) (There is a name but I do not wish to divulge publically as it is my family name).
A few of the people of the oldest tribes (up to Sidi Mhamed Moussa) who contributed works of charity and were notables such as
looked after certain matters of importance for the muslims when they died had their tombs enshrined and they now are called Zaouias (very much encouraged by Governments, and you know why).
A lot of these "Saints" were actually called "Murabiteens" because they were looked upon as guardian of the faith and the Quran.
I happen to have a relic which I would like restored, of the Quran written by hand which is pretty old that is a treasure from my family chest.
*** Sorry for the off-topic - ***
Peace
Nabster :)
PS talking about presumed dates - my father is presumed born in 1905 (we do not have an exact day because it was within a tribe), but in fact we reckon (he is dead now), that he was probably born ten years before i.e. 1895.
So this is just over 100 years ago, so how about events that happened 100's of years ago, or in the case of Mohammed over 1400 years ago.
This is why I said earlier, without scientific forensic investigations (and even in that case no guarantee) with tangible artifacts, original relics and archaeological findings, we will never know anything for sure !!!
The tendency of humans to get lost in the details is beautifully highlighted in the Quran in the account of the Cave, people trying to guess how long they slept, deciding to build a shrine over them... etc, and so instead of reflecting on the message which is lost in translation, they stick to the details which distract them from the message.
This is what is being done now too...
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 10:39:30 PM
Night of power? What on earth is that? ليلة القوة :rotfl:
The signs by which Laylat al-Qadr is knownThe first sign: it was reported in Saheeh Muslim from the hadeeth of Ubayy ibn Ka?b (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) announced that
one of its signs was that when the sun rose on the following morning, it had no (visible) rays. (Muslim, 762).
The second sign: it was reported from the hadeeth of Ibn ?Abbaas narrated by Ibn Khuzaimah, and by al-Tayaalisi in his Musnad, with a saheeh isnaad, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
?Laylat al-Qadr is a pleasant night, neither hot nor cold, and the following day the sun rises red and weak.?(Saheeh Ibn Khuzaymah, 2912; Musnad al-Tayaalisi).
The third sign: it was reported by al-Tabaraani with a hasan isnaad from the hadeeth of Waathilah ibn al-Asqa? (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ?
Laylat al-Qadr is a bright night, neither hot nor cold, in which no meteors are seen.? Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer. See Majma? al-Zawaa?id, 3/179; Musnad Ahmad
Quote from: belH on September 04, 2009, 10:19:10 PM
peace,
therefore, we should use the Sun Phases, Day Light and Night, and the Moon Phases, the moon cycle, to measure the Year.
Now, the year consists of DAYS and 12 Months.
Is it logic to say that the Day would be measured by the Sun Phases, Day light and Night, and the Month phases to measure the month boundaries?
If you think we should use the Sun Phases to measure the Month and the Moon to measure the Day, please explain of how this could happend?
:bravo:
Ayman still has to bring proof for his claims.
He doesnt and he can't, since there are no accounts (to mine and his knowledge) that monotheists used to fast after having witnessed a so-called 'full moon of scorcing heat'.
From submission.org
[Jeremiah 36:9] "And it came to pass in the
fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced: the month of fasting.
The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be
604 B.C., is stated to be in the
winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now
the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a
fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
9:36
The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record, the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them. Fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. Know that God is with the righteous.
9:37 Know that accelerating the intercalary is an addition in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it...
Edip-Layth - End Note 6 (9:36)
Verse 9:36 relates the number of months to the day of the creation of the earth. Perhaps in early days of the creation, the rotation of the Moon and Earth were synchronized and there were exactly 12 lunar months in a solar year. The increase in the length of the year or the decelerating earth is causing problems for modern technology which is very sensitive to small changes in the measurement of time, such as computers, electric grids, GPS systems, and missiles. In mid 20th century, scientists learned that the rotation of Earth was not sufficiently uniform as a standard of time. Besides solar gravity, there are many factors influencing the rotation of the earth. For instance, though in minor way, the Moon's gravity through tides causes deceleration, and melting of ice in the North Pole causes little acceleration. To compensate this net deceleration, almost every year we are adding one second to our atomic clocks, which defines and measures a second as 9,192,631,770 electromagnetic radiation or oscillation of Cesium 133. Since 1972 we added 23 leap seconds until 2006. However, the rate of the deceleration does not show a pattern. In recent years, the earth's rotation has been on schedule. See. 9:122
Peace progressive,
The ninth month you just quoted is most probably the ninth month after the Abib. You don't have a reference to count form.
Maybe Ramadan is that month?
Peace,
Rami
Peace Rami,
Quote from: Rami on September 05, 2009, 08:05:50 AM
Peace progressive,
The ninth month you just quoted is most probably the ninth month after the Abib. You don't have a reference to count form.
Maybe Ramadan is that month?
Peace,
Rami
I dont think you read carefully...
"Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting."
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 05, 2009, 08:07:17 AM
Peace Rami,
I dont think you read carefully...
"Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting."
But a month of fasting for who?? There is no such thing in the Torah.
http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
Quote from: Rami on September 05, 2009, 08:25:50 AM
But a month of fasting for who?? There is no such thing in the Torah.
http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
The Tanakh says so...
Again I need to say that I am not talking about your intercalary ayman-way month-counting Jews who dont follow God's system of 12 months in a year - I am talking about the righteous submitters who are described in the text (although the king is said not to have been righteous - neverthelss, he fasted).
This is the text from submission.org again:
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in
the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the
ninth month: and there was a
fire on the hearth burning before him."
Now the
present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine.
If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
[Jeremiah 36:9] "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah,
in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a
fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
The people fasted in the ninth month of their lunar calendar - just like we are told to do in the Quran. This is proof that people fasted exactly the same way as we do now. Ayman needs to bring proof for his claims.
Peace
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 05, 2009, 09:06:19 AM
The Tanakh says so...
Again I need to say that I am not talking about your intercalary ayman-way month-counting Jews who dont follow God's system of 12 months in a year - I am talking about the righteous submitters who are described in the text (although the king is said not to have been righteous - neverthelss, he fasted).
This is the text from submission.org again:
The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 36:22, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him."
Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.
[Jeremiah 36:9] "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
The people fasted in the ninth month of their lunar calendar - just like we are told to do in the Quran. This is proof that people fasted exactly the same way as we do now. Ayman needs to bring proof for his claims.
Peace
If its not in the Torah, its not required of the Israelites.
Peace.
Quote from: Rami on September 05, 2009, 09:55:45 AM
If its not in the Torah, its not required of the Israelites.
Peace.
You've missed the point...
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 05, 2009, 10:28:19 AM
You've missed the point...
Peace brothers,
This is derailing the main subject I would rather discuss this in the section under Christianity/Judaism/Others
:yay:
I have found most hilarious posts so check my next reply...It is soooo funny :rotfl: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 10:42:05 AM
Peace brothers,
This is derailing the main subject I would rather discuss this in the section under Christianity/Judaism/Others
:yay:
I have found most hilarious posts so check my next reply...It is soooo funny :rotfl: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
you last reply was funny too when you said, in urdu, 3shra is related to moon or month... :rotfl:
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 10:39:30 PM
You are reverting to foul language
Good bye.
Peace sister,
Ok I will send it to the dry cleaners.
Quoteand to the old bankrupt farida we know,
Old? :nope: I'd rather be bankrupt in this world than in the next.
Quotebut you seem to have forgotten that you could not then, and cannot now frighten anybody in the hope of shutting them up.You are the one who is frightened.
You mean like what you did to Q_student on page 59:Reply #876
QuoteNight of power? What on earth is that? ليلة القوة :rotfl:
So this holy night should wholly be a festival of indulgence in sex and food?! :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:
Reply #32 on: November 29, 2004,
marie: The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 36:38, 41:12, 76:16
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :
1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)[/b] :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:
:sun: Reply #33 on: November 29 2004,
:sun:
Ayman: Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence
It makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup. :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Paix,For full entertainmen you can now go to page 3 it's easy so just go to first page and then to page three. I just realisesd its on page 3 :laugh: :rotfl:
QuoteYou really lost your nerves when you protest why I am not answering a question which is on a later post of yours, not the one I was responding to.
My post was answering yours paragraph by paragraph. If you think it was going into circles, look at yourself, not at me.
You are the one who is need of a deep breath... and some manners.
Ok I have taken a deep breath now can you please give me your view about the plight of the blind in your "shahr ramadan please".
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 11:14:15 AM
Peace sister,
Ok I will send it to the dry cleaners.
Old? :nope: I'd rather be bankrupt in this world than in the next.
You mean like what you did to Q_student on page 59:Reply #876
So this holy night should wholly be a festival of indulgence in sex and food?! :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:
Reply #32 on: November 29, 2004,
marie: The same word "taqdeer" is also used in 36:38, 41:12, 76:16
The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :
1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
Allah said that the night of alqadr is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)[/b] :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:
:sun: Reply #33 on: November 29 2004,
:sun:
Ayman: Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence
It makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup. :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Paix,
For full entertainmen you can now go to page 3 it's easy so just go to first page and then to page three .
Ok I have taken a deep breath now can you please give me your view about the plight of the blind in your "shahr ramadan please".
the night of power :elektro:
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 07:49:04 PM
Salaam farida
You missed one important definition: voluminous wide woman.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Peace,
for those of you who are fasting, aren't you supposed not to argue while fasting?
anyways, for those quoting hadith, you are wasting your time on me,
Ayman is far from being a genius, but his understanding of the fast as decreed
in the Qur'an is spot on, and I invite you to follow it from next year, Allah willing,
if you wish to maximise your rewards.
Ayman, please do not be too impulsive in making comments, as I have followed you since 2003, and several
times you make pronouncements before they are fully clear in your head, this confuses matters with peeps.
You have been blessed these times with ramadan, the hajj, so glory be to Allah, and let us thank him for those
insights.
Your insights in the Jinns are completely off the mark, unless you have changed your pop psychology interpretation,
and if I were to judge you on that alone, I would not accept anything from you, but we need to be mature enough that
in Ijtihad we will make mistakes, but we ought to be big and wise enough and humble enough to recognise that we made one.
I am also curious as how you read the Quran, and do you also take into account of signs that Allah sends along the way.
We do dismiss the signs we get when asleep, while at those times our soul goes back to our Maker, and gets re-programed
in some sorts of way, Joseph was endowed with the ability to read the programing whereas I suppose for us, it is subliminal,
and everyday, we wake up we get taken over by the day to day reality, and choose to over-ride "valuable" instincts that Allah
every single night re-instills in us while we sleep...
(For a flavour of this, -though in a psychological/psychiatric contest- you can refer to: Human Givens - Joe Griffin & Ivan Tyrrell as a start up) - it is really fascinating...
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 05, 2009, 11:33:22 AM
the night of power :elektro:
ANd Hajj is all about feasting. :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 05, 2009, 10:56:43 AM
you last reply was funny too when you said, in urdu, 3shra is related to moon or month... :rotfl:
If you listen to Urdu radio service in Ramadan then you would hear about Akhri 3shra ie last ten days of the month and of course the night of power. ;)
3shra is divided into three sections. The first ten days of the moon cycle is awasl 3shra, then comes the middle 3shra and then final 3shra.(Akhri 3shra )
So 3shra is not an object call moon but the whole moon cycle from crescent to crescent.
Salaam
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 12:40:08 AM
BUT..... , 9:36 talks about counting twelve full-moons, ( not months) , in GOD'S RECORD (Different from 12.3 that you actually count). so we should count EXACTLY twelve full moons (not months ) to fullfil this commandement .
Peace
And that is what I and the believers are counting 12 Moon Cycles, as we are instructed by our Lord...
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 12:40:08 AM
Eventually we'll have to skip the occasional 13 th full moon (again not month) to acknowledge the God's will, and to keep in sync with that (natural) solar year , and hence the result is :
1 - Ramadan will always occur at the same "hot" time of the year, and will not drift away and all around.
2- The restricted full moons ( i think you got it now that it cannot be months) will always be consecutive and will always sync with the mating season of the wild life.
3- Hajj will always be in the same period of the year (ie. the harvest, in order to witness the benefits of Allah and remember and thank Him) and will always be between early summer and early fall, (yes , GOd Allowed us to do the hajj whenever one wants within the 4 restricted full-moons (you know what :bravo:) . Moreover i think that's why fighting is not allowed in this periode (harvest) to let people gather their food. and it will be unfair to attack people while they are harvesting.
And that is what I and the believers do not follow, because we know that our Lord did not Instruct us to do so...and from debating and reading the different comments in this thread, non have provided such instruction from Quran.
Therefore, you have your deen and we will have ours, and God will be the Judge in the Day were every one will be Judged.
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 05:53:24 AM
My mother Allah bless her soul, used to tell me that Layaltul Qadr was a very short night in the year,
this was from oral tradition from bedouin tribes in the sahara desert, and so even though this does
not constitute a proof, for me it nevertheless constitutes a sign that it has to be in summer.
Jazakumallah khairan
Salaam brother,
And your sister Farida is also saying the same,
NOT about
fasting but that Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather(in Jerusalem).
However for fasting:?whoever of you witnesses the month/moon, then let him fast therein?; ? this section is about the month/moon that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birth month) leading you back to the original event the revelation of the Qur?an.
Quotefor this piece of valuable ijtihad, and I am so convinced that I will start enjoining those who ask to fast this way.
You are now going to enjoy ijtihad, Ayman cooked along with his team. :eat:
Brother I will soon be posting the Grand picture so do read it word by word please and then give your valuable advice.
God bless
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 12:03:24 PM
Peace,
I am also curious as how you read the Quran, and do you also take into account of signs that Allah sends along the way.
We do dismiss the signs we get when asleep, while at those times our soul goes back to our Maker, and gets re-programed
in some sorts of way, Joseph was endowed with the ability to read the programing whereas I suppose for us, it is subliminal,
and everyday, we wake up we get taken over by the day to day reality, and choose to over-ride "valuable" instincts that Allah
every single night re-instills in us while we sleep...
(For a flavour of this, though in a psychological/psychiatric contest) you can refer to: Human Givens - Joe Griffin & Ivan Tyrrell as a start up) - it is really fascinating...
'Recitation of the Qur'an after the dawn prayers is witnessed' means that when you get your signs/guidance for the day and I firmly believe in those signs.
:peace:
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 12:27:14 PM
Peace
And that is what I and the believers are counting 12 Moon Cycles, as we are instructed by our Lord...
And that is what I and the believers do not follow, because we know that our Lord did not Instruct us to do so...and from debating and reading the different comments in this thread, non have provided such instruction from Quran.
Therefore, you have your deen and we will have ours, and God will be the Judge in the Day were every one will be Judged.
Salaam belH
Happy Ramadan! Good to see you on this thread again. Your valuable contributions, of last year, have proved a great resource. Jazakumallah khairan.
You can see again that the organised and well oiled, but badly equipped with pdf files, Prince of Darkness is bidding on the hope that he can get away with his lies. :nope: that will never happen.
:peace:
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 12:27:14 PM
Peace
And that is what I and the believers are counting 12 Moon Cycles, as we are instructed by our Lord...
And that is what I and the believers do not follow, because we know that our Lord did not Instruct us to do so...and from debating and reading the different comments in this thread, non have provided such instruction from Quran.
Therefore, you have your deen and we will have ours, and God will be the Judge in the Day were every one will be Judged.
Easy with the spooky apocalyptic language. :D
We are not disputing the 12 lunar cycles.
We are disputing the arbitrary Ramadan placement.
Quote from: Rami on September 05, 2009, 12:39:39 PM
Easy with the spooky apocalyptic language. :D
We are not disputing the 12 lunar cycles.
We are disputing the arbitrary Ramadan placement.
I will soon be posting "the Grand Scheme" behind disputing the arbitrary Ramadan placement.
So look forwad to the fianl destination plan. :jedi:
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 12:50:14 PM
I will soon be posting "the Grand Scheme" behind disputing the arbitrary Ramadan placement.
So look forwad to the fianl destination plan. :jedi:
I am enjoying this thread. ;D
AHHHHHHHHHH this is what some one is doing (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4852/bepolite.gif) the how some one can enjoy this thread. :( :nope:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 06:18:09 PM
No the point is that all your arguments are from ignorance. Even an illiterate knows the basics such as the difference between masculine (he/"huwa" and feminine pronouns (she/"hiya") and that they refer to masculine and feminine objects. You have not even reached that level. You are acting like a baby who is still learning "dada" and "mama" but doesn't know pronouns and frankly speaking I am not in the mood for babysitting so don't continue sliding this slippery slope and have the courage to admit that you were wrong otherwise you will lose whatever little credibility you still have and changing your screen name will not help.
I have vowed i.e. made shahida to fast the month and to refrain my response.
Using context, is walad -- boy/son (masculine) in 4:11 not applicable to girl/daughter (feminine)?
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 06:18:09 PM
There is no such thing as a 1:1 relation between feeding the poor and days of abstinence. You obviously never read 5:89 where feeding 10 poor equates to 3 days of fasting (i.e., 3.33:1). I guess we won't be hearing this nonsense from you again.
Thanks I did not recollect that verse. Regardless, shahr is a lunar month fast dawn to sunset 60 days or feed 60 poor.
How come we continue hear about the full moon illusion nonsense; are you too proud to admit a mistake after it was repeatedly shown the BIG RED FULL MOON a few days before the solstice makes the full moon 26-29 days after the solstice look as a baby?
Is The Full Moon Illusion still applicable Ayman -- tell the truth?
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 06:18:09 PMBoth hu refer back to "the fasting that was dictated on you." This is because there are many types of abstinances. In this case, what was dictated on us is "the fasting of the complete count of a few days".
"falyasum alssiyamu" -- that seems right to you?
Salaam Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 06:28:15 PM
Back to your question: In such a case I would personally say it refers to "shahr" since it's the nearest singular masculine to the pronoun.
Thank you for your honest answer.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra
falyasumhu -- so he should fast it (i.e. ?alshshahra?)
Quote from: afridi220 on September 05, 2009, 12:59:25 PM
AHHHHHHHHHH this is what some one is doing (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4852/bepolite.gif) the how some one can enjoy this thread. :( :nope:
Salaam Afridi,
You are so helpful when it comes to finding Urdu wrtings now see here; quickduck has quoted a proverb we have in Urdu too...
Kuty ki Dum hazar saal bhi nalki me rakhi mugur teri ki teri rahi.
From quickduck:
I like proverbs..
Here's an arabic one : dhil al kalb 3omro ma yen3idil
the tail of the Dog never gets straight.
Yet he won't acceptt that Urdu for month moon is same as Arabic. :yes
Quote from: Rami on September 05, 2009, 12:39:39 PM
Easy with the spooky apocalyptic language. :D
We are not disputing the 12 lunar cycles.
We are disputing the arbitrary Ramadan placement.
Peace,
It seems that most of God Creatures like to dispute with him, and therefore, the go astray.
If we learn to listen to God When saying " I know what you do not know.? , and reply by saying "You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise", then we will be at ease with ourselves. But, instead, we argue and dispute.
Trust God's wisdom and follow the Well-Established Verses that Instruct you to count 12 Months (Moon Cycles) when calculating a year--NO ADDING a MOON nor SUBTRACTING.
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 12:33:46 PM
Salaam belH
Happy Ramadan! Good to see you on this thread again. Your valuable contributions, of last year, have proved a great resource. Jazakumallah khairan.
You can see again that the organised and well oiled, but badly equipped with pdf files, Prince of Darkness is bidding on the hope that he can get away with his lies. :nope: that will never happen.
:peace:
So long Sister...I have not been contributing as I used to...But you and others are doing wonderful Job.
May God increase your wisdom
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 10:10:22 PM
Peace Farida,
This only proves that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. The same exact thing can be said about Christianity and its hero Paul:
Jesus as the son of god was established firmly by the Prophet Jesus during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Paul invented that Jesus is the son of god without any valid evidence. Paul is the one who was a desciple with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon Christianity religion like you suggest using the example ?he claimed that Jesus is the son of god?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that
If a much more drastic lie such as the one about Jesus can be invented, then the order of the months in an arbitrary calendar is the simplest thing to invent. [/color]
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
If you take this "invention" to a court of law, the judge would simply throw your flawed reasoning out the window so please stop playing the judge and get yourself a good lawyer.
:peace:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 07:28:12 PM
Once again you ignore to read the very links that you provide:
1. Where does it say in PERF558 or the inscription that the year is AH? Can you copy and paste the transcription and underline the word "hijri"?
What do you suppose the year 22 is referring to or is this the purpose of your question?
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Mickey+Dunce&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=d9ca629f83f82f8a
PERF 558 Contents In the name of the Merciful, Compassionate God. These are the animals for slaughtering that `Abd-Allah ibn Jabir and his companions took from Ihnas:? we took from the representatives of Theodor[akios],? the elder son of Abu Qir, and from the representative of [Chr ]istofor[ os ],? the younger son of Abu Qir, fifty sheep from the animals for slaughter and fifteen other sheep, which were butchered for the men on his ships,∞ his cavalry and his infantry in the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two. The scribe was Ibn Hadid.??
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 A.D.
The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.??
They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 A.D. Given the virtual inevitability of imprecisions of dating at the period, the fit is remarkably good.
The above is confirmed by new moon data for that year?
New Moon (start of new month crescent 2 days later)
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal PERF 558 last day of Jumada al-awwal 4/2524-Apr 6. Jumada al-thani begins 4/26
23-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 2. Safar
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 07:28:12 PM
Are you seriously that clueless? Why do you think the next summer solstice happened 12 months later? What is the new moon crescent on July 16? Is it the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice? YES or NO.
YES that was the moon cycle in those years and would be the same after summer solstice if they picked year 622, 623, or 624 two days after the summer solstice, nothing special...
New Moon Date (start new month 2 days later) 1/17/622 7. Rajab
16-Feb 8. Sha'aban
18-Mar 9. Ramadan
16-Apr 10. Shawwal
16-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
12-Aug 2. Safar Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) Hijra
11-Sep 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-Oct 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-Nov 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Dec 6. Jumada al-thani
1/6/623 7. Rajab
5-Feb 8. Sha'aban
7-Mar 9. Ramadan
5-Apr 10. Shawwal
5-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
3-Jul 1. Muharram 2 AH
2-Aug 2. Safar
31-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Dec 7. Rajab
1/25/624 8. Sha'aban
24-Feb 9. Ramadan March 17, 624 (17 Ramadan 2 AH) Badr Battle
24-Mar 10. Shawwal
23-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
23-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
21-Jun 1. Muharram 3 AH
21-Jul 2. Safar
20-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
18-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
18-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
16-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
16-Dec 7. Rajab
1/14/625 8. Sha'aban
13-Feb 9. Ramadan
14-Mar 10. Shawwal March 19, 625 (3 Shawwal 3 AH) Battle of Uhud
12-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
12-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
Quote552CE (just 18 years before traditions claim the prophet was born):
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Month name: Zu A'allan (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but ?warkh?)
326CE
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html
Month name: Kaslul.
267CE
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.htm
Month name: Tammouz (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but consistent with the 552CE inscription ?yarkh?)
When did Abraha die after he put up that sign in Southern Arabia and are Zu A?allan, ?warkh? and Tammuz (Jewish) or ?yarkh? common Arabic words that were used throughout all of Arabia including the central and northern -- what language and dialect?
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 07:28:12 PM
No the dates of the lunar calendar get pushed back by 1 month every three years. If they picked the year of PERF558 as 1AH for starting a purely lunar calendar then the 22 years difference would result in Ramadhan coming 7 months later and it would have been in what is now the month of Rabii Al-Thani in the spring and Farida and you wouldn?t be so cranky. :)
I am very calm and there is nothing to push back every three years; this has nothing with summer solstice and our friend would have simply written year 1 and the months would continue without change...
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
New Moon Date8-Dec 1. Muharram
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram 1 AH
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal PERF 558 last day of Jumada al-awwal 4/2524-Apr 6. Jumada al-thani begins 4/26
23-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1. Muharram 2 AH
17-Dec 2. Safar
Salaam again Samia,
Quote from: Samia on September 04, 2009, 08:59:19 PM
No one is denying the "moon" as a marker. But do not deny the specificty of the sun in counting the years as per:
17:12
وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِّتَبْتَغُواْ فَضْلاً مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاً
We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail
Which should make you re-read verse 10:5 in the following way to avoid any contradiction:
10:5 هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم يعلمون
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases, that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.
There is no contradiction.
10:5 No other way to read than what it exactly says; the moon phases are to know the years.
17:12 Moon phases only exist due to sunlight and therefore, the sun is used to know the years.
Peace
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 12:20:24 PM
ANd Hajj is all about feasting. :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
If you listen to Urdu radio service in Ramadan then you would hear about Akhri 3shra ie last ten days of the month and of course the night of power. ;)
3shra is divided into three sections. The first ten days of the moon cycle is awasl 3shra, then comes the middle 3shra and then final 3shra.(Akhri 3shra )
So 3shra is not an object call moon but the whole moon cycle from crescent to crescent.
Salaam
are you for real? :o
sister you really need some urdu lessons too. :yes
peace all of you,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PM
I have vowed i.e. made shahida to fast the month and to refrain my response.
not a valid excuse, since you have been roughly answering all along this thread. So why stop now ?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PM
"falyasum alssiyamu" -- that seems right to you?
Salaam Samia,
Thank you for your honest answer.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu -- so he should fast it (i.e. ?alshshahra?)
I totally agree that "hu" refers to ash-shahra not to the abstinance. But ash-shahra doesn't mean month. it means full moon (the obvious marker for counting months, exactly 12, no more nor less).
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PM
Using context, is walad -- boy/son (masculine) in 4:11 not applicable to girl/daughter (feminine)?
You still need efforts, stop faking learning arabic, LEARN
walad is a masculine noun, but it doesn't strictly means boy/son nor girl/daughter. Actually it means both as we can understand from 4:11.
Walad is used in arabic to mean progeniture/infant in both sex.
Boy/son/male = فتى/اٍبن/ذكر (from right to left) fataa/ibn/dhakar.
girl/daughter/female = فتاة/بنت/أنثى (from right to left) fataate/bint/unthaa.
until you pass the basic level of arabic, you will always have serious problems in learning islam due to the mistranslations you read.
Salam all of you ..
100 pages !!! we should celebrate :sun:
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 10:10:22 PM
Peace Farida,
This only proves that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. The same exact thing can be said about Christianity and its hero Paul:
Jesus as the son of god was established firmly by the Prophet Jesus during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Paul invented that Jesus is the son of god without any valid evidence. Paul is the one who was a desciple with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon Christianity religion like you suggest using the example ?he claimed that Jesus is the son of god?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that
If a much more drastic lie such as the one about Jesus can be invented, then the order of the months in an arbitrary calendar is the simplest thing to invent.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
You are unable to write even a single sentence without contradicting a fact or reality. And your logic is screwed-up to the point of no return. The proof is in all your posts including this one.
POINT 1:
Paul was an apostle (follower) of Jesus, who converted to Christianity after Jesus' death by crucifixion, and there is no evidence he ever personally met Jesus when he was alive.
Paul was originally known as Saul of Tarsus, and a rabid persecutor of Christians. On the road to Damascus, he is said to have been visited by the resurrected Jesus, and struck blind. After his vision cleared Saul took the name of Paul, and began to proclaim the gospel, as revealed to him by Jesus the Christ.
Therefore, Ayman is proudly demonstrating his ignorance by saying ?Paul is the one who was a desciple with the Prophet and not you.?
POINT 2:
We all know that the life of Jesus ended prematurely. He did not have time to establish the God's system like the Prophet Muhammad did. Therefore, even a 5 year old child would know that it would be easy for Paul to invent lies about the God and Jesus and get away with it because he didn't have to face the God's system. Now contrast this with the system Prophet Muhammad left behind. Ayman, please cite us the verse that talks about the punishment for blaspheming the God within the God's system. Ironically, the same verse applies to Ayman as well.
Five years old child gets this but not Ayman. The God has taken his understanding faculty away because of his wrongdoing.
POINT 3:
We have historical evidence when Paul started his gospel (point of deviation). We know of groups that protested his teaching. We have many other evidence as well. My question to Ayman is this: do you have any such evidence regarding your so called deviation of Ramadan. And don't quote me the PERF stupid thing which has been created by Greeks who are famous for making mythology. They have hundreds of idol (gods) who they worship. I think you are at home with them. Otherwise why would you use such nasty think as a source of your writing.
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 05, 2009, 02:45:16 PM
are you for real? :o
sister you really need some urdu lessons too. :yes
Salaam,
Yes brother, I am for real and what I said are Urdu phrases (not punjabbi) and Urdu is a language made up of mainly Arabic, Persian Sanskrit.
Confirm it with someone outside free-minds who is a good Urdu speaker.
:peace:
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 02:54:23 PM
100 pages !!! we should celebrate :sun:
Soon it will be 101.
Saaalaaam
Peace guest,
Now i really started doubting your intelligence. Would you please visit http://www.iqtest.com/prep.html ...maybe it will give you a hint ?
By his post, Ayman just wanted to show you that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. So he replaced words in your very prior post to show you that it sounds the same. that's simple :)
Again it's proverb time : He Tried to shoot the dear, but he missed the forest.
Salam
Quote from: ayman on September 04, 2009, 11:34:03 PM
Peace Nabil,
The burden of proof is on those who claim that those people met the prophet (a positive). ;;;;;;;;;;;Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Everyone
The Grand Scheme; Brother Nabil, in one of his post advised me:
please do not let that question of unity bother you, unity of what, behind a month? are you serious?Let me explain what the grand scheme behind this Summer Solstice/ Hot Ramadan swindle really is:
First of all, note that Ayman and Samia are always referring to ?the Prophet? or ?the Messenger?, never using the name ?Mohammad?.
Now let me go through Ayman?s post(in red) to you,
step by step outlining its final destination:
The burden of proof is on those who claim that those people met the prophet (a positive). I don't have to prove a negative (see the logical fallacy of negative proof).
The Grand Plan here is to suggest that, in fact, there never was a prophet called Mohammad!
Now see below how Ayman slyly leads us towards this uncanny conclusion:
The topic is about timing and some on this thread have claimed that the sectarian arbitrary calendar was established by the prophet
See above; there is absolutely no logic to his statement about two different things. He is simply manoeuvring towards the contention that NOTHING was established by the prophet.
We can empirically verify that corruption took place since the traditional Umar calendar is completely baseless and has nothing to do with the great reading.
First of all who are ?we? and see how he is leading us by the nose to, what he calls, his ?empirical? verification.
If indeed Umar established this corrupt calendar
He sets off by attacking the one whose name apparently has been seen on the remains of receipts etc.
full of lies then he couldn't be one of the followers of the messenger
In other words :hmmFull of lies???? Was there indeed someone called Mohammad in the first place whom Umar followed?! (who would have followed the message)
Actually, we should be LESS careful with those guys. At least we have the writings of Bukhari and thus we know that at least he existed.
This is where the accusation starts that which guy actually existed.????
Muslim and Bukhari existed and have been branded as evil ones ?the bad guy from Bukhara who concocted stories about ?those guys didn't even exist?
Two people that we know existed are Umar and Ali. The writings we have about Umar come from the Romans (describing the invasion of Jerusalem during his time) and the Jews (greatly praising him for being a champion of Zionism).
Now he brands Umar as a friend of Zionism (greatly praising him for being a champion of Zionism), a fascistic ideology that was not even devised until the 19th century!
Up to this stage it?s been firmly established that Bukhari came from Bukhara. Now the next stage is to brand Umar as a Zionist confirmed only by the enemy Romans.
Ali is mentioned in one source that talks about the Arab civil wars but he is called Abu Turab (not Abu Talib) and he is described as the Prince of Hira (present day Southwest Iraq). So even the little we know about those figures contradicts traditions about them
Now Ali is popping up; time to discredit and delete him too as being nothing but ?the traditionalist prince of Hira?.
So no Ali then...no uncle of Ali?Interestingly, the Roman sources also say that the kingdom of the Arabs started invading their teritories in 620-621CE when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year. According to traditions, at that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet! so the traditional dating is definitely problematic and putting all the evidence that we have together we can be pretty certain that the traditional calendar is not based on the actual year of the "hijra" but on a later date. Since this is a discussion about the timing and the validity of the traditional calendar, then all this is certainly relevant. For further reading, I would suggest that you get the book "Seeing Islam as Others Saw it" by Hoyland
Now we come to the Actual man Mohammad and the legitimacy of the traditional personalities.
It always amazes me
that people believe that everyone who held any political position during those days is a cousin of the prophet or is related by marriage. I bet that its all just political propaganda and lies much like the kings of Jordan and Morocco and anyone who pays $300 to get a certified family tree that he is one of the so-called Ashraf.
So finally no Mohammad, no shahada and no valid Islam. You bet!!!!! I bet that Dr Ashraf Ayman had been paid weelll over $300 for his nefarious propaganda. >:D
Congratulations brother Nabil! Now you have your own
?Murabiteens" Saint Ayman :handshake:
:peace:
7:183 Free_Minds: And I will encourage them, for My scheming is formidable.[/size]
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 12:20:24 PM
If you listen to Urdu radio service in Ramadan then you would hear about Akhri 3shra ie last ten days of the month and of course the night of power. ;)
3shra is divided into three sections. The first ten days of the moon cycle is awasl 3shra, then comes the middle 3shra and then final 3shra.(Akhri 3shra )
So 3shra is not an object call moon but the whole moon cycle from crescent to crescent.
Salaam
so which one is correct:
1. 3shra = 10 (days)?
2. 3shra = crescent to crescent 29-30 (days)?
and have you ever heard of 3shra Mubashira?
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 04:29:40 PM
Salaam Everyone
First of all, note that Ayman and Samia are always referring to ?the Prophet? or ?the Messenger?, never using the name ?Mohammad?.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
may be out of respect like many indian women don't say their husbands' names....?
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 04:29:40 PM
Salaam Everyone
The Grand Scheme;
Brother Nabil, in one of his post advised me: please do not let that question of unity bother you, unity of what, behind a month? are you serious?
Let me explain what the grand scheme behind this Summer Solstice/ Hot Ramadan swindle really is:
First of all, note that Ayman and Samia are always referring to ?the Prophet? or ?the Messenger?, never using the name ?Mohammad?.
Now let me go through Ayman?s post(in red) to you,step by step outlining its final destination:
The burden of proof is on those who claim that those people met the prophet (a positive). I don't have to prove a negative (see the logical fallacy of negative proof).
The Grand Plan here is to suggest that, in fact, there never was a prophet called Mohammad!
Now see below how Ayman slyly leads us towards this uncanny conclusion:
The topic is about timing and some on this thread have claimed that the sectarian arbitrary calendar was established by the prophet
See above; there is absolutely no logic to his statement about two different things. He is simply manoeuvring towards the contention that NOTHING was established by the prophet.
We can empirically verify that corruption took place since the traditional Umar calendar is completely baseless and has nothing to do with the great reading.
First of all who are ?we? and see how he is leading us by the nose to, what he calls, his ?empirical? verification.
If indeed Umar established this corrupt calendar
He sets off by attacking the one whose name apparently has been seen on the remains of receipts etc.
full of lies then he couldn't be one of the followers of the messenger
In other words :hmmFull of lies???? Was there indeed someone called Mohammad in the first place whom Umar followed?! (who would have followed the message)
Actually, we should be LESS careful with those guys. At least we have the writings of Bukhari and thus we know that at least he existed.
This is where the accusation starts that which guy actually existed.????
Muslim and Bukhari existed and have been branded as evil ones ?the bad guy from Bukhara who concocted stories about ?those guys didn't even exist?
Two people that we know existed are Umar and Ali. The writings we have about Umar come from the Romans (describing the invasion of Jerusalem during his time) and the Jews (greatly praising him for being a champion of Zionism).
Now he brands Umar as a friend of Zionism (greatly praising him for being a champion of Zionism), a fascistic ideology that was not even devised until the 19th century!
Up to this stage it?s been firmly established that Bukhari came from Bukhara. Now the next stage is to brand Umar as a Zionist confirmed only by the enemy Romans.
Ali is mentioned in one source that talks about the Arab civil wars but he is called Abu Turab (not Abu Talib) and he is described as the Prince of Hira (present day Southwest Iraq). So even the little we know about those figures contradicts traditions about them
Now Ali is popping up; time to discredit and delete him too as being nothing but ?the traditionalist prince of Hira?. So no Ali then...no uncle of Ali?
Interestingly, the Roman sources also say that the kingdom of the Arabs started invading their teritories in 620-621CE when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year. According to traditions, at that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet! so the traditional dating is definitely problematic and putting all the evidence that we have together we can be pretty certain that the traditional calendar is not based on the actual year of the "hijra" but on a later date. Since this is a discussion about the timing and the validity of the traditional calendar, then all this is certainly relevant. For further reading, I would suggest that you get the book "Seeing Islam as Others Saw it" by Hoyland
Now we come to the Actual man Mohammad and the legitimacy of the traditional personalities.
It always amazes me that people believe that everyone who held any political position during those days is a cousin of the prophet or is related by marriage. I bet that its all just political propaganda and lies much like the kings of Jordan and Morocco and anyone who pays $300 to get a certified family tree that he is one of the so-called Ashraf.
So finally no Mohammad, no shahada and no valid Islam.
You bet!!!!! I bet that Dr Ashraf Ayman had been paid weelll over $300 for his nefarious propaganda. >:D
Congratulations brother Nabil! Now you have your own ?Murabiteens" Saint Ayman :handshake:
:peace:
7:183 Free_Minds: And I will encourage them, for My scheming is formidable.[/size]
La 7awla wa la 9uwwata illa billah !!
Alcohol is bad , use it with moderation .
What about the pink elephant in your room ??
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 04:46:20 PM
La 7awla wa la 9uwwata illa billah !!
Alcohol is bad , use it with moderation .
What about the pink elephant in your room ??
aah I see, I could have never guessed it!
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 10:40:18 AM
Ad you have missed the wall..
I like the come back..
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 03:53:35 PM
Peace guest,
Now i really started doubting your intelligence. Would you please visit http://www.iqtest.com/prep.html ...maybe it will give you a hint ?
By his post, Ayman just wanted to show you that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. So he replaced words in your very prior post to show you that it sounds the same. that's simple :)
Again it's proverb time : He Tried to shoot the dear, but he missed the forest.
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 04:46:20 PM
La 7awla wa la 9uwwata illa billah !!
Alcohol is bad , use it with moderation .
What about the pink elephant in your room ??
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 02:54:23 PM
100 pages !!! we should celebrate :sun:
I must say, Ayman's cheerleader captain makes a lot of insightful posts.
Peace,
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 02:48:31 PM
I totally agree that "hu" refers to ash-shahra not to the abstinance. But ash-shahra doesn't mean month. it means full moon (the obvious marker for counting months, exactly 12, no more nor less).
You still need efforts, stop faking learning arabic, LEARN
Then since you know Arabic and disagree; tell everyone how to fast a FULL MOON?
This year's full moon after solstice July 7th full at exactly 12:22PM in the daytime.
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2009&n=214
Moon phases for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia year 2009
FULL MOON Jul 7
12:22 PMDid you see
it? Was you quick enough to "fast
it"?
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 02:48:31 PM
walad is a masculine noun, but it doesn't strictly means boy/son nor girl/daughter. Actually it means both as we can understand from 4:11.
Walad is used in arabic to mean progeniture/infant in both sex.
Boy/son/male = فتى/اٍبن/ذكر (from right to left) fataa/ibn/dhakar.
girl/daughter/female = فتاة/بنت/أنثى (from right to left) fataate/bint/unthaa.
until you pass the basic level of arabic, you will always have serious problems in learning islam due to the mistranslations you read.
I asked a simple question (thanks for proving my point) and I'm familiar with inheritance verses, thank you.
Perhaps since you know Arabic so well you can answer the questions at the end of this thread...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.0
We are especially interested in the exact definition of Kalala, Ikhwatan, and the meaning of
"للذكر to the male مثل equal حظ luck الانثيين the two females" if that is a general mixed case or if the girls are exactly two...
Please don't post it here (we already know you are gifted in languages), we have enough unanswered questions pertaining to this topic to address -- that is if you like since you are the Arabic expert and know Qur'an so well...
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الرحمن
علم القرءان
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 05:57:19 PM
FULL MOON Jul 7 12:22 PM
Did you see it? Were you quick enough to "fast it"?
:bravo:
Lets see if he can answer that one.
@ ayman,
I like your arguementation tactic: ignoring.
A blessed and successful Ramadan to all :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 05, 2009, 04:29:40 PM
Salaam Everyone
The Grand Scheme;
Salaam Everyone
The Grand Scheme;
Brother Nabil, in one of his post advised me: please do not let that question of unity bother you, unity of what, behind a month? are you serious?
Let me explain what the grand scheme behind this Summer Solstice/ Hot Ramadan swindle really is:
So finally no Mohammad, no shahada and no valid Islam.
You bet!!!!! I bet that Dr Ashraf Ayman had been paid weelll over $300 for his nefarious propaganda. >:D
Congratulations brother Nabil! Now you have your own ?Murabiteens" Saint Ayman :handshake:
:peace:
7:183 Free_Minds: And I will encourage them, for My scheming is formidable.
I am very curious of Ayman's answer to this.
I am also aware of Ayman's positions regarding certain matters in the Quran to be metaphorical / allegorical,
and there was a fierce debate between members as to the fact if previous Prophets such as Abraham, David,
Solomon and even Jesus ever existed, or if they were a combination of characters, or an invention of religious
leaders... this was of course something the large majority in Free-minds forcefully rejected.
Ayman proposed a metaphorical explanation to the reality of Jinns and Angels (i.e. that they do not actually
exist but in your head as fantasies), this was too forcefully rejected, but he still has some followers.
Now if your analysis / accusation is correct, and he starts arguing that Mohammed is an allegorical figure,
then we will act when this happens.
Otherwise, as of now, I find his argument on the counting of the years and months using his quranic
and cosmological insights together with the fast directives sound.
For me it is akin to RK, with whom I did not agree with on many points, but who opened my eyes on some.
Ayman does not also always follow a strict scientific method when he peppers statements around, which for me
does no good to his credibility.
But he does take risks, and is not paid for what he does. With many of us acting out of fear of the unknown just
to defend our status quo, I think he, Layth, Edip Yuksel and a few others have done a lot of good to the Monotheist
cause.
If your grave accusations are correct, you will still need to provide proof, i.e. e.g. that he is on the pay roll of some
dark agencies.
Salam and Allah's protection to all of us...
Peace Nabil,
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 12:03:24 PMfor those of you who are fasting, aren't you supposed not to argue while fasting?
anyways, for those quoting hadith, you are wasting your time on me,
Ayman is far from being a genius, but his understanding of the fast as decreed in the Qur'an is spot on, and I invite you to follow it from next year, Allah willing, if you wish to maximise your rewards.
Ayman, please do not be too impulsive in making comments, as I have followed you since 2003, and several times you make pronouncements before they are fully clear in your head, this confuses matters with peeps.
You have been blessed these times with ramadan, the hajj, so glory be to Allah, and let us thank him for those insights.
I agree. This is why I put the disclaimer at the end of my articles. All good comes from the god.
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 12:03:24 PMYour insights in the Jinns are completely off the mark, unless you have changed your pop psychology interpretation,
and if I were to judge you on that alone, I would not accept anything from you, but we need to be mature enough that
in Ijtihad we will make mistakes, but we ought to be big and wise enough and humble enough to recognise that we made one.
We know from the great reading that the "jinn" are what entice us to do wrong and are our "qarin"/close counterpart. Which out of those entities that have been proposed over the years we can empirically verify as fitting the above:
1. Ghosts
2. Aliens
3. Reptilians
4. Our imagination
I think the answer is clear and each one of us deep inside knows what drives him/her to do wrong but as you said we all make mistakes. Even my wife, like you, doesn't fully agree with my interpretation of "jinn" and yet I still accept things from her :).
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 12:03:24 PMI am also curious as how you read the Quran, and do you also take into account of signs that Allah sends along the way.
We do dismiss the signs we get when asleep, while at those times our soul goes back to our Maker, and gets re-programed
in some sorts of way, Joseph was endowed with the ability to read the programing whereas I suppose for us, it is subliminal,
and everyday, we wake up we get taken over by the day to day reality, and choose to over-ride "valuable" instincts that Allah
every single night re-instills in us while we sleep...
(For a flavour of this, -though in a psychological/psychiatric contest- you can refer to: Human Givens - Joe Griffin & Ivan Tyrrell as a start up) - it is really fascinating...
I am not sure how I read the great reading and if it is any different than how others read it. I don?t think about that. I guess I try to read it without any preconceptions. Most of the breakthroughs that I had were just after waking up after dawn. I also see the entire creation of the god as part of the signs that he guides us with. Even the people on this thread are signs. I think that dreams can be good or bad. For example, many corruptors did what they did as a result of dreams. I just pray that the god guides me and has mercy on me, this is all.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 12:27:14 PMAnd that is what I and the believers are counting 12 Moon Cycles, as we are instructed by our Lord...
1. Do you know the difference between a count and an absolute number?
2. What are you starting the count from?
3. What if you started the count from a different point?
If you answer those questions, you will realize that when the sectarian so-called Ramadhan occurs has nothing to do with counting 12 of anything.
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 12:27:14 PMAnd that is what I and the believers do not follow, because we know that our Lord did not Instruct us to do so...and from debating and reading the different comments in this thread, non have provided such instruction from Quran.
Believers in what? You have essentially put your faith in whoever established the order of the months and decided that it should start at a certain point. This is what you believe in.
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 12:27:14 PMTherefore, you have your deen and we will have ours, and God will be the Judge in the Day were every one will be Judged.
Agreed. But don?t claim that your arbitrary so-called Ramadhan is based on the great reading and admit that it is based on following sectarians. If the majority stops following it or you get stranded on an island and lose track of time, it will die out just as much as all falsehood will eventually die out.
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 01:21:24 PMIt seems that most of God Creatures like to dispute with him, and therefore, the go astray.
No only humans do. All of the god?s creatures naturally follow the solar cycle except Sunnis, Shias and 19ers.
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 01:21:24 PMIf we learn to listen to God When saying " I know what you do not know.? , and reply by saying "You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise", then we will be at ease with ourselves. But, instead, we argue and dispute.
Then don?t argue and dispute. Just imagine that there is no one to argue and dispute with and you only have the great reading and you have lost track of time. Now figure out the timing using the great reading.
Quote from: belH on September 05, 2009, 01:21:24 PMTrust God's wisdom and follow the Well-Established Verses that Instruct you to count 12 Months (Moon Cycles) when calculating a year--NO ADDING a MOON nor SUBTRACTING.
But you are not counting 12 Months. You have been counting continuously since 1AH. It doesn?t matter that you have given what you count names and you repeat those names every 12 names because those names are meaningless anyways so you might as well call them A B C .... In order to properly count, you have to know the population that you are counting out of.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PMI have vowed i.e. made shahida to fast the month and to refrain my response.
We should always think carefully before we talk and not just during one month.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PMUsing context, is walad -- boy/son (masculine) in 4:11 not applicable to girl/daughter (feminine)?
No need to continue to dispute the indisputable. As everyone who bothered to explain to you kindly explained, there is no such gender agreement in Arabic as you think. So feminine can describe a masculine and vice-versa. I already gave an example where the feminine is describing a masculine. Here is the opposite case:
4:103.
إِنَّ الصَّلاَةَ كَانَتْ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ كِتَابًا مَّوْقُوتًا
Literal:?The learning connection (feminine) was on the faithful a book (masculine) timed.Ironically, those who are clapping for you never bothered to explain to you those facts or correct you or stand for the truth. Compare this to me correcting others, even those who agree with me. This tells you who is standing for the truth.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PMThanks I did not recollect that verse. Regardless, shahr is a lunar month fast dawn to sunset 60 days or feed 60 poor.
So regardless of what 5:89 says you will continue with your erroneous thinking.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PMHow come we continue hear about the full moon illusion nonsense; are you too proud to admit a mistake after it was repeatedly shown the BIG RED FULL MOON a few days before the solstice makes the full moon 26-29 days after the solstice look as a baby?
Is The Full Moon Illusion still applicable Ayman -- tell the truth?
Please tell everyone what causes the solstice moon illusion and why it appears red and which moons this applies to.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PM"falyasum alssiyamu" -- that seems right to you?
It should be ?falyasum alssiyam alathi kutib alaykum? so he should abstain it (the particular abstinence that was dictated on you).
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 01:12:19 PMSalaam Samia,
Thank you for your honest answer.
2:185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu -- so he should fast it (i.e. ?alshshahra?)
It could go either way. Either way, reading the rest of the passage we know for sure that ?shahr? is a marker and this is why ?how many days to fast? is given, which would be redundant if it was known to be a month. Also, this is the only way around the logical absurdity created by taking ?shahr? to mean month and witnessed being in the perfect past tense (i.e., whoever amongst you witnessed the month should go back in time and fast it).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid again,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 02:03:37 PMWhat do you suppose the year 22 is referring to or is this the purpose of your question?
I am not supposing anything. It is you who is supposing. The term ?Hijri? doesn?t appear until about a hundred years later. So we don?t really know what this arbitrary dating is based on.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 02:03:37 PMPERF 558 Contents
In the name of the Merciful, Compassionate God. These are the animals for slaughtering that `Abd-Allah ibn Jabir and his companions took from Ihnas:? we took from the representatives of Theodor[akios],? the elder son of Abu Qir, and from the representative of [Chr ]istofor[ os ],? the younger son of Abu Qir, fifty sheep from the animals for slaughter and fifteen other sheep, which were butchered for the men on his ships,∞ his cavalry and his infantry in the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two. The scribe was Ibn Hadid.??
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 A.D.
The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 A.D. Given the virtual inevitability of imprecisions of dating at the period, the fit is remarkably good.
Hmm.. As everyone can see there is no ?Hijri? here. So again you have no idea what the arbitrary start is based on.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 02:03:37 PMYES that was the moon cycle in those years and would be the same after summer solstice if they picked year 622, 623, or 624 two days after the summer solstice, nothing special...
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
3-Jul 1. Muharram 2 AH
21-Jun 1. Muharram 3 AH
Why did you stop at 624? What happened to 625? You know the answer but as usual, you are deliberately hiding the truth. You know that after three years the lunar cycle will be out of sync with the solar cycle. So this further pinpoints the initial point of corruption since at the start (and for the subsequent three years) the cycle was in sync with the solar cycle and it started with the first new moon after the summer solstice.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 02:03:37 PMWhen did Abraha die after he put up that sign in Southern Arabia and are Zu A?allan, ?warkh? and Tammuz (Jewish) or ?yarkh? common Arabic words that were used throughout all of Arabia including the central and northern -- what language and dialect?
Who cares about when Abraha died. The date of the inscription is just 18 years prior to when traditionalists claim prophet Muhammed was born. It is consistent with all other inscriptions in that it doesn?t mention any of the names of the sectarian months but totally different months. Not only that but it also destroys the traditional history. In fact a few years ago MSM Saifullah, the owner of Islamic-Awareness.org emailed me requesting the link to this inscription after he saw it in one of my articles. Why do you think to this day he doesn?t dare to publish this inscription on Islamic-Awarness.org?
The language of all the inscriptions is Arabian but they use different dialects. The 552CE one is in a South Arabian dialect called Sabaic and uses the Musnad script while the 326CE and 267CE are in the North Arabian Old Arabic dialect and use the Nabataean script. The great reading uses both South Arabian and North Arabian terms. Notice, for example, words in the South Arabian inscription such as rahman and tawd (mountain) and many others which are used in the great reading.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 02:03:37 PMI am very calm and there is nothing to push back every three years; this has nothing with summer solstice and our friend would have simply written year 1 and the months would continue without change...
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
New Moon Date
8-Dec 1. Muharram
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram 1 AH
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal PERF 558 last day of Jumada al-awwal 4/25
24-Apr 6. Jumada al-thani begins 4/26
23-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1. Muharram 2 AH
17-Dec 2. Safar
There is nothing to be calm or not calm about so enough with the drama and don?t take this so personally.
You are forgetting that prior to the adoption of the purely lunar calendar by our friend, there used to be intercalation. So in the 22 period difference there would have been 7 intercalations, thus pushing the Muharam 1 of the new era of our friend by 7 months. So as I said many times, your Ramadhan is dependent on the following 100% arbitrary and manmade factors:
1. When the new era was made to start.
2. Which month the new era started with as month 1.
3. The order of the months.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 02:03:37 PMThere is no contradiction.
10:5 No other way to read than what it exactly says; the moon phases are to know the years.
17:12 Moon phases only exist due to sunlight and therefore, the sun is used to know the years.
17:12 doesn?t say anything about when it is daylight on the moon. It clearly talks about daylight and night (not the moon) being used to determine the number of years right here on earth. The only way you can use daylight and night to determine the number of years is if you use the interval between longest/shortest daylight/night, in other words the interval between solstices. There is simply no other way and PERF558 confirms that this was the initial practice before the corruption took place.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all of you,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 05:57:19 PM
Peace,
Then since you know Arabic and disagree; tell everyone how to fast a FULL MOON?
This year's full moon after solstice July 7th full at exactly 12:22PM in the daytime.
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2009&n=214
Moon phases for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia year 2009
FULL MOON Jul 7 12:22 PM
Did you see it? Was you quick enough to "fast it"?
1- Did i ever said that the full moon marker was to be witnessed at daylight ? Are you idiot enough to think so?
2- you're talking about the 100 % full moon which you were able to calculate using NASA websites. But what about old civilisations ? What about common people ? what about those who don't have broadband internet a few clics away from their fingers ?
You know very well that the answer to your questions has been posted enough along this thread (Farida knows best the number of pages and the replies locations, she's good at that, she can help you re-read them)..In my case, i'm done with this thread (i haven't Ayman's patience)...that's why i prefer write more" insightful" posts :)
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 05, 2009, 05:57:19 PM
I asked a simple question (thanks for proving my point) and I'm familiar with inheritance verses, thank you. :sun:
Perhaps since you know Arabic so well you can answer the questions at the end of this thread...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.0
We are especially interested in the exact definition of Kalala, Ikhwatan, and the meaning of "للذكر to the male مثل equal حظ luck الانثيين the two females" if that is a general mixed case or if the girls are exactly two...
Please don't post it here (we already know you are gifted in languages), we have enough unanswered questions pertaining to this topic to address -- that is if you like since you are the Arabic expert and know Qur'an so well...
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الرحمن
علم القرءان
Since i'm done with this thread, i will take a look at inheritance thread. But i'll never post anything before reading the entire 27 pages...
see you there ...:)
@ Ayman
Quote from: Ayman
It should be ?falyasum alssiyam alathi kutib alaykum? so he should abstain it (the particular abstinence that was dictated on you).
I think you finally convinced me that the hu/it refers to the abstinence, not to the "shahr" . I was wrong, i did not notice that there's another hu/it before that one. i.e : wa 3ala allathina yuteeqonahu"
So it's now clear that it means "yuteeqona assiyama allathi kutiba alaykum". in NO WAY people can "afford the month/full-moon with great difficulty".. (yuteequna ash-shahra does make no sense).
Thank you for correcting me :)
And by the way, this answers nun-eid-rex-pseudo-guest's 1st part of the question.
I'll answer now the 2nd part :
as i said to farida, i started reading this thread since August 7th this year, so when i got convinced by ayman's theory, it was too late to witness the july 7th full moon. No problem, i won't miss it next year if God wills.
Salam all
Peace all,
Before i quit posting in this thread, here is a quick summary from quick duck :)
1- shahar means obvious, and the only phase when the moon is obvious is the full moon phase.
2 - 17:12 tells us that the year is to be calculated using the night and day. thus the only explanation is that the year is solar. wich is completely in sync with the natural god's law of seasons. But some of you keep ignoring this.
3- When you finally realize that 'shahr' means full moon, then you will be able to count exactly 12 in a solar cycle (ie. between 2 solstices) as per 9:36
4 - the ADJECTIVE Ramadan (hot/scorching) looses its identity if the fasting period drifts all around the year, so it's logical and OBLIGATORY that the fastin period should always occur in the same season.
5 - 9:36 is clear about the fact that the "four restricted full moons" have to be consective. So again they must be in the same season to preserve the wild life they are meant for. The fact is that sectarians (there are plenty around here) are completly ignoring it.
6- Both hajj and fasting are described as being for a "numbered days" ("Ayyaman ma3doodat/easily counted" as the opposite of "ayyaman 3adeeda" which translates "numerous days"). Therefore, "numbered days" is to be 3 days min - 10 days max . Moreover, God told us that hajj is to be completed in 10 days . in the other side, we're told that we must complete the count for fasting period. It leaves no doubt that fasting period is also for 10 days.
7- God tells us that the crescents must be used for timing purposes and for the hajj. So how can you use crescents to count Exactly 10 days for hajj (and fasting as well) if not by starting the count from the full moon marker ? (Surprisingly, the time frame between the full moon stage, and "descending phases"/manazila, down untill the first next crescent is exactly 10 days). Does it ring any bell ?
8- 2:184 says that those who can afford IT (fasting ;) ) but with great difficulty may substitute it with feeding the poor, Although fasting is better for them. So there's no retribution for not fasting, but a reward/benefit for it.
9- Since the so-called islamic calendar is prooved to be 100% arbitrary and contradicts the quranic teachings, then it is not worth following it.
10 and last - [13:11] GOD does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change. If GOD wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have NONE beside Him as Lord and Master.
Enjoy your own Ramadan, see you in another thread...
Peace
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 12:44:02 AM
1- Did i ever said that the full moon marker was to be witnessed at daylight ? Are you idiot enough to think so?
2- you're talking about the 100 % full moon which you were able to calculate using NASA websites. But what about old civilisations ? What about common people ? what about those who don't have broadband internet a few clics away from their fingers ?
You know very well that the answer to your questions has been posted enough along this thread (Farida knows best the number of pages and the replies locations, she's good at that, she can help you re-read them)..In my case, i'm done with this thread (i haven't Ayman's patience)...that's why i prefer write more" insightful" posts :)
1. Then you are missing it, cannot distinguish 98% 99% 100% 99% 98% full moon.
2. Yes the common people mostly have poor vision after a certain age, and the blind, and those indoors, and those living in cloudy places especially during monsoons, etc.
You have no answers and
the most hateful of voices is the donkey's bray.(http://www.dinamobomb.net/animations/sports/cheerleader12.gif)
QuoteSince i'm done with this thread, i will take a look at inheritance thread. But i'll never post anything before reading the entire 27 pages...
see you there ...:)
@ Ayman
I think you finally convinced me that the hu/it refers to the abstinence, not to the "shahr" . I was wrong, i did not notice that there's another hu/it before that one. i.e : wa 3ala allathina yuteeqonahu"
So it's now clear that it means "yuteeqona assiyama allathi kutiba alaykum". in NO WAY people can "afford the month/full-moon with great difficulty".. (yuteequna ash-shahra does make no sense).
Thank you for correcting me :)
And by the way, this answers nun-eid-rex-pseudo-guest's 1st part of the question.
I'll answer now the 2nd part :
as i said to farida, i started reading this thread since August 7th this year, so when i got convinced by ayman's theory, it was too late to witness the july 7th full moon. No problem, i won't miss it next year if God wills.
Bye, don?t forget to check the weather forecast.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:55:35 PM
So regardless of what 5:89 says you will continue with your erroneous thinking.
Faman lam yajid fasiyamu shahrayni mutatabiAAayni
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
You tell people fast 27-30 days and to wait for full moon while it's clear they cannot sleep with their wives.
Where is tarabbusu in above verse which says wait until the next full moon?
2:226 Lillatheena yu/loona min nisa-ihim tarabbusu arbaAAati ashhurin
For those who swear away from their women, waiting four months
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:55:35 PM
Please tell everyone what causes the solstice moon illusion and why it appears red and which moons this applies to.
Sure why not: http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/
For the nth time, the illusion a few days BEFORE the solstice is not applicable in your system while the full moon 26-29 days AFTER the solstice is NOT even an illusion; compare moons ? last year June 18th 2008 BEFORE the solstice?
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
July 20 1997 full moon was a baby compared to the above and to this full moon in
DECEMBER!http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article5327206.ece
From The Times
December 12, 2008
Look up tonight for a spectacular treat in the sky
Biggest full moon for years enhanced by shooting stars If the full moon tonight looks unusually large, it is not your imagination ?
it is the biggest and brightest full moon to be seen for 15 years. Each month the Moon makes a full orbit around the Earth in a slightly oval-shaped path, and tonight it will swing by the Earth at its closest distance, or perigee. It will pass by 356,613km (221,595 miles) away, which is about 28,000km closer than average.
The unusual feature of tonight is that the perigee also coincides
with a full moon, which will make it appear 14 per cent bigger and some 30 per cent brighter than most full moons this year ? so long as the clouds hold off from blocking the view. The next closest encounter with a full moon this large will not be until November 14, 2016.
In addition to this lunar flypast,
much of Britain may also be treated to a strange phenomenon known as the moon illusion. As the Moon rises in the late afternoon, it will appear even larger as it lies close to the horizon. Psychologists have tried to explain this as a trick of the eye, as the landscape on the horizon appears to make the Moon loom much larger, an effect that disappears as the Moon rises above the horizon, although viewing it through a tube, such as a toilet roll, can make it look large again.
With the Moon approaching so close to the Earth, its gravity will pull a slightly higher tide than normal for a full moon. This so-called perigeal tide adds about 0.5m (1.6ft) to the high-water mark, and with freshening southwesterly winds forecast, this may cause some flooding, especially along parts of the South West coast.
Tonight?s full moon is also notable for rising to its greatest height in the night sky for the entire year, lying almost overhead at midnight. This is because we are approaching the winter solstice, on December 21, and thanks to the tilt of the Earth the Moon appears at its highest, as the Sun is at its lowest.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GwDYFxb8piY/SUQKEuhICmI/AAAAAAAACdw/mAeLyUNqamY/s400/capt.b5851095b0ff4fceb457b3791ba132e8.full_moon_ncfay103.jpg)
http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:55:35 PM
It should be ?falyasum alssiyam alathi kutib alaykum? so he should abstain it (the particular abstinence that was dictated on you).
It could go either way. Either way, reading the rest of the passage we know for sure that ?shahr? is a marker and this is why ?how many days to fast? is given, which would be redundant if it was known to be a month. Also, this is the only way around the logical absurdity created by taking ?shahr? to mean month and witnessed being in the perfect past tense (i.e., whoever amongst you witnessed the month should go back in time and fast it).
No it cannot go either way and if so, then how do you fast it a full moon?
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
I am not supposing anything. It is you who is supposing. The term ?Hijri? doesn?t appear until about a hundred years later. So we don?t really know what this arbitrary dating is based on.
Hmm.. As everyone can see there is no ?Hijri? here. So again you have no idea what the arbitrary start is based on.
Please you are in denial and know very well all these refer to AH...
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/kuficsaud.html
1. In the name of God
2. I, Zuhayr, wrote [this] at the time ʿUmar died in the year four
3. and twenty (i.e., 24 AH).
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/wadi1.html
1. May God have mercy on Yazīd ibn ?Abdallāh al-Salūlī and
2. he wrote [this] in Jumādā of the year seven
3. and twenty (i.e., 27 AH).
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/urwa.html
Ramadan, 29 AH / May, 650 CE.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hajri.html
1. In the name of Allāh, the Merciful, the Compassionate; this tomb
2. belongs to ?Abd al-Rahmān Ibn Khair al-Hajrī. O Allāh, forgive him
3. and make him enter into Thy mercy and make us go with him.
4. (passer by) When reading this inscription ask pardon for him (the deceased)
5. and say amīn! This inscription was written
6. in Jumada II
7. of the year one and
8. thirty.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jerus.html
# [Arabic] [In the name of] God, the Compassionate and Merciful.
# From al-Hārith b. ?Abd to the people of Nassana
# province of Gaza, in the region of al-Halus
# Pay quickly to ?Udayy Ibn Khalid of the Bani
# Sa?d Ibn Malik the due for Dhūl-Qa?dah and
# al-Muharram and Safar and the two months of Rabi?
# seventy measures of wheat and its equal in oil.
# written by Abū Sa?īd in Dhūl-Qa?dah
# in the year 54.
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
Why did you stop at 624? What happened to 625? You know the answer but as usual, you are deliberately hiding the truth. You know that after three years the lunar cycle will be out of sync with the solar cycle. So this further pinpoints the initial point of corruption since at the start (and for the subsequent three years) the cycle was in sync with the solar cycle and it started with the first new moon after the summer solstice.
How many times did I post that long list of moon data with all the dates? For the nth time it?s the moon cycle ? IT IS NEVER IN SYNC WITH THE SOLSTICE! Why even to explain that new moons happen after the solstice, before the solstice, at the solstice, which you are clearly obsessed with the solstice latching on anything having to do with it and in clear denial ? you know exactly that I?m telling the truth.
Let me know if you need me to post that again and highlight for you each 1st month after the solstice ? if you cannot see or refuse to see that all the dates perfectly align to PERF 558 and the new moon cycle then nothing more to say.
Again, no need to lie about sheep receipts, deaths, dates of battles which perfectly align themselves with a lunar new moon crescent calendar.
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
Who cares about when Abraha died. The date of the inscription is just 18 years prior to when traditionalists claim prophet Muhammed was born. It is consistent with all other inscriptions in that it doesn?t mention any of the names of the sectarian months but totally different months. Not only that but it also destroys the traditional history. In fact a few years ago MSM Saifullah, the owner of Islamic-Awareness.org emailed me requesting the link to this inscription after he saw it in one of my articles. Why do you think to this day he doesn?t dare to publish this inscription on Islamic-Awarness.org?
The language of all the inscriptions is Arabian but they use different dialects. The 552CE one is in a South Arabian dialect called Sabaic and uses the Musnad script while the 326CE and 267CE are in the North Arabian Old Arabic dialect and use the Nabataean script. The great reading uses both South Arabian and North Arabian terms. Notice, for example, words in the South Arabian inscription such as rahman and tawd (mountain) and many others which are used in the great reading.
There is no information his death only tradition and that he was succeeded by his sons, Yaksum and Masruq; including Stuart Munro-Hay, "Abraha" in Siegbert von Uhlig, ed., Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: A-C (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag, 2003) who dates his death after 553 based on an inscription.
In addition it's a Semitic language obviously some words include Aramaic and Hebrew along with Persian borrowed words. That proves nothing. The only certain is Ramadan, why 11 other are named as such; who knows perhaps did not want to continue using month names associated with paganism as the current days and months of the western calendar.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/days_months1.htm
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
You are forgetting that prior to the adoption of the purely lunar calendar by our friend, there used to be intercalation. So in the 22 period difference there would have been 7 intercalations, thus pushing the Muharam 1 of the new era of our friend by 7 months. So as I said many times, your Ramadhan is dependent on the following 100% arbitrary and manmade factors:
1. When the new era was made to start.
2. Which month the new era started with as month 1.
3. The order of the months.
You are forgetting they knew when Ramadan was obviously so all that was correct moving forward.
1. They choose the year of the migration
2. 1st month to start the new era
3. The order of the months based on Ramadan
All we need is one reference point which is PERF 558 and new moon data, roll it all back confirms the dates.
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
17:12 doesn?t say anything about when it is daylight on the moon. It clearly talks about daylight and night (not the moon) being used to determine the number of years right here on earth. The only way you can use daylight and night to determine the number of years is if you use the interval between longest/shortest daylight/night, in other words the interval between solstices. There is simply no other way and PERF558 confirms that this was the initial practice before the corruption took place.
As already stated there was no corruption PERF 558 absolutely confirms that it was a new moons calendar in use and not what you imply -- has ZERO to do with solstice and 17:12 does not have to state the obvious?
Sun = lamp which shines on the moon = phases(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2379/2079031058_9c467520ef.jpg)
I have to focus on work, like you have to fly around and this stuff is taking too much time going in circles.
Take care, have nice fast whoever is observing it.
Peace all,
Holiday
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
17:12 doesn?t say anything about when it is daylight on the moon. It clearly talks about daylight and night (not the moon) being used to determine the number of years right here on earth. The only way you can use daylight and night to determine the number of years is if you use the interval between longest/shortest daylight/night, in other words the interval between solstices. There is simply no other way and PERF558 confirms that this was the initial practice before the corruption took place.
False dilemma fallacy.
Having night and day doesnt mean that you need a solar year, and it especially doesnt mean that you need to count from solstice to solstice - this is your imiganition.
If we count alternating night and days, then we can count the days in a year - doesnt matter whether you have a solar or lunar year.
BTW, do you have any evidence for monotheists having fasted your way in the past?
The Bible fully confirms the Muslim Ramadan (9th month a the lunar calendar), in case you've missed it.
Peace
Salam Bro quickduck,
You did a good job in your summary of the work on the fasting as prescribed by the Quran, Allah rewards you for that.
I would like to plagiarise the Quran by putting this in from 7:175 - 7:176 (maybe these ayats refer to Saul/Paul):
- The likeness of the sectarian is like that of a dog, if you drive him away, he pants; and if you leave him alone he still pants.
Such is the description of the person who does not listen. -Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 01:40:14 AM
Peace all,
Before i quit posting in this thread, here is a quick summary from quick duck :)
1- shahar means obvious, and the only phase when the moon is obvious is the full moon phase.
2 - 17:12 tells us that the year is to be calculated using the night and day. thus the only explanation is that the year is solar. wich is completely in sync with the natural god's law of seasons. But some of you keep ignoring this.
3- When you finally realize that 'shahr' means full moon, then you will be able to count exactly 12 in a solar cycle (ie. between 2 solstices) as per 9:36
4 - the ADJECTIVE Ramadan (hot/scorching) looses its identity if the fasting period drifts all around the year, so it's logical and OBLIGATORY that the fastin period should always occur in the same season.
5 - 9:36 is clear about the fact that the "four restricted full moons" have to be consective. So again they must be in the same season to preserve the wild life they are meant for. The fact is that sectarians (there are plenty around here) are completly ignoring it.
6- Both hajj and fasting are described as being for a "numbered days" ("Ayyaman ma3doodat/easily counted" as the opposite of "ayyaman 3adeeda" which translates "numerous days"). Therefore, "numbered days" is to be 3 days min - 10 days max . Moreover, God told us that hajj is to be completed in 10 days . in the other side, we're told that we must complete the count for fasting period. It leaves no doubt that fasting period is also for 10 days.
7- God tells us that the crescents must be used for timing purposes and for the hajj. So how can you use crescents to count Exactly 10 days for hajj (and fasting as well) if not by starting the count from the full moon marker ? (Surprisingly, the time frame between the full moon stage, and "descending phases"/manazila, down untill the first next crescent is exactly 10 days). Does it ring any bell ?
8- 2:184 says that those who can afford IT (fasting ;) ) but with great difficulty may substitute it with feeding the poor, Although fasting is better for them. So there's no retribution for not fasting, but a reward/benefit for it.
9- Since the so-called islamic calendar is prooved to be 100% arbitrary and contradicts the quranic teachings, then it is not worth following it.
10 and last - [13:11] GOD does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change. If GOD wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have NONE beside Him as Lord and Master.
Enjoy your own Ramadan, see you in another thread...
Peace
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 06, 2009, 06:49:12 AM
False dilemma fallacy.
Having night and day doesnt mean that you need a solar year, and it especially doesnt mean that you need to count from solstice to solstice - this is your imiganition.
If we count alternating night and days, then we can count the days in a year - doesnt matter whether you have a solar or lunar year.
Let me change my reposne (above) a bit, which was to the following:
Quote from: ayman17:12 doesn?t say anything about when it is daylight on the moon. It clearly talks about daylight and night (not the moon) being used to determine the number of years right here on earth. The only way you can use daylight and night to determine the number of years is if you use the interval between longest/shortest daylight/night, in other words the interval between solstices. There is simply no other way and PERF558 confirms that this was the initial practice before the corruption took place.
In the lunar calendar, night and day are also used to calculate the days of the year - it's not like the sun is ignored.
It is your imagination that says that we need the solstices for that we need the solstices for that, or other things of the like.
If we use our brains, we can incorporate the counting of alternating nights and days to calculate the number of days in a year, using the lunar calendar - it's simple.
9:36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them. Fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. Know that God is with the righteous.
We know that one year consists of 12 lunar months- each 24-hour day is counted by alternating night and day. You count the days in the 12 lunar months and then you have the number of days in a year.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 04:03:54 AMFaman lam yajid fasiyamu shahrayni mutatabiAAayni
58:4 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
You tell people fast 27-30 days and to wait for full moon while it's clear they cannot sleep with their wives.
Where is tarabbusu in above verse which says wait until the next full moon?
2:226 Lillatheena yu/loona min nisa-ihim tarabbusu arbaAAati ashhurin
For those who swear away from their women, waiting four months
In 58:4 "min qabl an yatamasa" is specified which indicates that the fasting must happen before they get back together while in 2:226 they don't have to fast or do anything all they have to do is "tarabus" (wait for the event). So in 58:4, if the guy does not fast the coming period between two consecutive full-moons, it doesn't matter that the full-moons events passed. It is the fast that matters. This is pretty clear.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 04:03:54 AMSure why not: http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/
For the nth time, the illusion a few days BEFORE the solstice is not applicable in your system while the full moon 26-29 days AFTER the solstice is NOT even an illusion; compare moons ? last year June 18th 2008 BEFORE the solstice?
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
July 20 1997 full moon was a baby compared to the above and to this full moon in DECEMBER!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article5327206.ece
From The Times December 12, 2008
Look up tonight for a spectacular treat in the sky
Biggest full moon for years enhanced by shooting stars
If the full moon tonight looks unusually large, it is not your imagination ? it is the biggest and brightest full moon to be seen for 15 years.
Each month the Moon makes a full orbit around the Earth in a slightly oval-shaped path, and tonight it will swing by the Earth at its closest distance, or perigee. It will pass by 356,613km (221,595 miles) away, which is about 28,000km closer than average.
The unusual feature of tonight is that the perigee also coincides with a full moon, which will make it appear 14 per cent bigger and some 30 per cent brighter than most full moons this year ? so long as the clouds hold off from blocking the view.
The next closest encounter with a full moon this large will not be until November 14, 2016.
In addition to this lunar flypast, much of Britain may also be treated to a strange phenomenon known as the moon illusion. As the Moon rises in the late afternoon, it will appear even larger as it lies close to the horizon. Psychologists have tried to explain this as a trick of the eye, as the landscape on the horizon appears to make the Moon loom much larger, an effect that disappears as the Moon rises above the horizon, although viewing it through a tube, such as a toilet roll, can make it look large again.
With the Moon approaching so close to the Earth, its gravity will pull a slightly higher tide than normal for a full moon. This so-called perigeal tide adds about 0.5m (1.6ft) to the high-water mark, and with freshening southwesterly winds forecast, this may cause some flooding, especially along parts of the South West coast.
Tonight?s full moon is also notable for rising to its greatest height in the night sky for the entire year, lying almost overhead at midnight. This is because we are approaching the winter solstice, on December 21, and thanks to the tilt of the Earth the Moon appears at its highest, as the Sun is at its lowest.
http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html
You have not answered the question and instead you have given stuff which has nothing to do with the solstice moon "illusion". Here is a hint from:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.The "illusion" has nothing to do with the actual size of the full-moon. This is why it is called an "illusion". It has to do with the altitude of the full-moon.
From: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm
For the same reason that sunsets can be vivid red, the low-hanging moon frequently takes on a beautiful pink or orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere.The key here is that this full-moon takes the lowest path accross the horizon compared with other full-moons. ONLY two full-moons are "solstice moons", the one before the sosltice and the one after the solstice. Given the association of the term "ramadhan" with heat then this fits better with the moon AFTER the solstice. Here is the data (for Washington, DC) for the one on July 6 this year compared to the one that you refer to above in December 2008:
Data for night of July 6, 2009:
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 0.6 123.5 1.00
19:40 2.0 125.1 1.00
19:50 3.5 126.6 1.00
20:00 4.9 128.2 1.00
20:10 6.4 129.9 1.00
20:20 7.8 131.6 1.00
20:30 9.2 133.3 1.00
20:40 10.5 135.0 1.00
20:50 11.9 136.8 1.00
21:00 13.1 138.7 1.00
21:10 14.4 140.5 1.00
21:20 15.6 142.5 1.00
21:30 16.7 144.4 1.00
21:40 17.8 146.5 1.00
21:50 18.8 148.5 1.00
22:00 19.8 150.6 1.00
22:10 20.7 152.8 1.00
22:20 21.5 155.0 1.00
22:30 22.3 157.2 1.00
22:40 23.0 159.5 1.00
22:50 23.7 161.8 1.00
23:00 24.2 164.1 1.00
23:10 24.7 166.5 1.00
23:20 25.1 168.9 1.00
23:30 25.5 171.3 1.00
23:40 25.7 173.8 1.00
23:50 25.9 176.2 1.00
Data for night of December 12, 2008:
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:50 1.3 56.2 1.00
17:00 2.7 57.6 1.00
17:10 4.2 59.1 1.00
17:20 5.8 60.5 1.00
17:30 7.4 61.9 1.00
17:40 9.0 63.2 1.00
17:50 10.7 64.6 1.00
18:00 12.4 65.9 1.00
18:10 14.1 67.2 1.00
18:20 15.8 68.5 1.00
18:30 17.5 69.8 1.00
18:40 19.3 71.1 1.00
18:50 21.1 72.4 1.00
19:00 22.8 73.6 1.00
19:10 24.6 74.9 1.00
19:20 26.5 76.2 1.00
19:30 28.3 77.5 1.00
19:40 30.1 78.7 1.00
19:50 31.9 80.0 1.00
20:00 33.8 81.3 1.00
20:10 35.6 82.6 1.00
20:20 37.5 84.0 1.00
20:30 39.4 85.3 1.00
20:40 41.2 86.7 1.00
20:50 43.1 88.2 1.00
21:00 45.0 89.6 1.00
21:10 46.9 91.2 1.00
21:20 48.8 92.7 1.00
21:30 50.6 94.4 1.00
21:40 52.5 96.1 1.00
21:50 54.4 97.9 1.00
22:00 56.2 99.8 1.00
22:10 58.1 101.9 1.00
22:20 59.9 104.1 1.00
22:30 61.7 106.5 1.00
22:40 63.5 109.2 1.00
22:50 65.3 112.1 1.00
23:00 67.0 115.3 1.00
23:10 68.7 118.9 1.00
23:20 70.3 123.1 1.00
23:30 71.9 127.8 1.00
23:40 73.3 133.2 1.00
23:50 74.6 139.5 1.00
Notice that the one on July 6 rose to a an altitude of less than 26 degress by midnight. On the other hand, the one in December rose much higher to an altitude of 74.6 degrees by the same time. In addition, notice the rate of climb for the July 6 scorching full-moon is much lower than the one in December. The
low altitude and the slow climb is what gives the solstice moon illusion and the red color as the low altitude lasts for a long time, unlike the moon in December that climbs very quickly.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 04:03:54 AMNo it cannot go either way and if so, then how do you fast it a full moon?
You don't fast a full-moon so if this is the meaning then this is why how long the fast id given in 2:184-185, otherwise saying the fast is for a few days and saying that it is for a month would be contradictory or at best redundant.
It can go either way as the preceding "hu" refers to the "abstinence that was dictated on you".
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 01:40:14 AM
Peace all,
Before i quit posting in this thread, here is a quick summary from quick duck :)
1- shahar means obvious, and the only phase when the moon is obvious is the full moon phase.
2 - 17:12 tells us that the year is to be calculated using the night and day. thus the only explanation is that the year is solar. wich is completely in sync with the natural god's law of seasons. But some of you keep ignoring this.
3- When you finally realize that 'shahr' means full moon, then you will be able to count exactly 12 in a solar cycle (ie. between 2 solstices) as per 9:36
4 - the ADJECTIVE Ramadan (hot/scorching) looses its identity if the fasting period drifts all around the year, so it's logical and OBLIGATORY that the fastin period should always occur in the same season.
5 - 9:36 is clear about the fact that the "four restricted full moons" have to be consective. So again they must be in the same season to preserve the wild life they are meant for. The fact is that sectarians (there are plenty around here) are completly ignoring it.
6- Both hajj and fasting are described as being for a "numbered days" ("Ayyaman ma3doodat/easily counted" as the opposite of "ayyaman 3adeeda" which translates "numerous days"). Therefore, "numbered days" is to be 3 days min - 10 days max . Moreover, God told us that hajj is to be completed in 10 days . in the other side, we're told that we must complete the count for fasting period. It leaves no doubt that fasting period is also for 10 days.
7- God tells us that the crescents must be used for timing purposes and for the hajj. So how can you use crescents to count Exactly 10 days for hajj (and fasting as well) if not by starting the count from the full moon marker ? (Surprisingly, the time frame between the full moon stage, and "descending phases"/manazila, down untill the first next crescent is exactly 10 days). Does it ring any bell ?
8- 2:184 says that those who can afford IT (fasting ;) ) but with great difficulty may substitute it with feeding the poor, Although fasting is better for them. So there's no retribution for not fasting, but a reward/benefit for it.
9- Since the so-called islamic calendar is prooved to be 100% arbitrary and contradicts the quranic teachings, then it is not worth following it.
10 and last - [13:11] GOD does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change. If GOD wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have NONE beside Him as Lord and Master.
Enjoy your own Ramadan, see you in another thread...
Peace
:bravo:
Salaam everyone
And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
I have proved to everyone, from Ayman?s own post, that Ayman?s Grand Scheme here is to suggest that, in fact, there never was a deen established by the prophet ! He is simply manoeuvring towards the contention that NOTHING was established by the prophet called Mohammad.
Brother Nabil or anyone of you may be ? very curious of Ayman's answer to this?His silence on my last post is acceptance.
So I have nothing further to add to new cycle of arguments. I rest my case.
Good bye everyone
The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
:peace:
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMPlease you are in denial and know very well all these refer to AH...
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/kuficsaud.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/wadi1.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/urwa.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hajri.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jerus.html
Only the unpublished inscription of Urwa mentions Hijra. So it remains to be seen if it indeed mentions it. Even if it did then this doesn't prove that this date is not arbitrary nor that the prophet actually migrated on 1 Muharam 0 AH. In fact, even the traditionalists defending your arbitrary sectarians calendar admit that he didn't. The writings from the Romans indicate that the kingdom of the Arabs started invading their teritories in 620-21CE, which is before the traditional Hijra. Certainly, before the "hijra" there was no such Arab Kingdom or invasions of Roman teritories. There is nothing in the great reading telling us that the new era should start a couple of months before the supposed date of the "hijra". It is the same as no one knows for sure when Jesus was born and the god has not told us to use such time for anything so the Common Era is similarly completely baseless and arbitrary.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMHow many times did I post that long list of moon data with all the dates? For the nth time it?s the moon cycle ? IT IS NEVER IN SYNC WITH THE SOLSTICE! Why even to explain that new moons happen after the solstice, before the solstice, at the solstice, which you are clearly obsessed with the solstice latching on anything having to do with it and in clear denial ? you know exactly that I?m telling the truth.
Let me know if you need me to post that again and highlight for you each 1st month after the solstice ? if you cannot see or refuse to see that all the dates perfectly align to PERF 558 and the new moon cycle then nothing more to say.
Again, no need to lie about sheep receipts, deaths, dates of battles which perfectly align themselves with a lunar new moon crescent calendar.
What are you babbling about? The fact that Muharam 1 of the first year of the new era was the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice is indisputable. You even said YES that it was. Later on it wasn?t in sync with the solstice is what I said. At the starting point it was in sync and then of course as the purely lunar calendar was adopted, it diverged three years later exactly as expected.
There are no event dates that perfectly align with PERF558. All your arguments around PERF558 are circular. You don?t have the Gregorian calendar dates for any of those events (Badr, Uhud, Hijra, etc.) so that you can validate against. All we know from PERF558 is that the new era must have started on so and so date in the Gregorian calendar. This is all.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMThere is no information his death only tradition and that he was succeeded by his sons, Yaksum and Masruq; including Stuart Munro-Hay, "Abraha" in Siegbert von Uhlig, ed., Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: A-C (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag, 2003) who dates his death after 553 based on an inscription.
What does Abraha?s death has to do with anything? Moreover, the date of his death as 553CE further confirms that there is no way that Muhammed was born in 570CE on the year of Abraha?s expedition who has been dead for 17 years! So either the traditional history (including chronology of ?hijra? and so on) is false or if the traditional history is correct that he was born on the date of that event then Muhammed was born 18 years earlier.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMIn addition it's a Semitic language obviously some words include Aramaic and Hebrew along with Persian borrowed words. That proves nothing. The only certain is Ramadan, why 11 other are named as such; who knows perhaps did not want to continue using month names associated with paganism as the current days and months of the western calendar.
Why is the only certain Ramadan? Like the other 11, it is never mentioned in any pre-Quranic inscription. At least with the others, we know that the Arabs used Rabi Al-Awwal and Rabi Al-Thani for their 6 seasons (not months). With Rabi Al-Awwal (first grazing) in spring while Rabi Al-Thani (second grazing) in early fall. In fact, the only thing certain about ?ramadhan? is its meaning, which indicates a time of heat and not an arbitrary time.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMYou are forgetting they knew when Ramadan was obviously so all that was correct moving forward.
1. They choose the year of the migration
2. 1st month to start the new era
3. The order of the months based on Ramadan
You are essentially admitting that when your so-called Ramadhan occurs depends on three arbitrary factors, which is what I have been saying all along. So you surrender to the fact that if the year of PERF558 was chosen to start the new era then Ramadhan would be a completely different month now and according to you would not be ?correct?.
1. Who are those mysterious ?they?? Don?t say that it was prophet Muhammed without any evidence from the great reading. Otherwise you might as well believe in Sira and Hadith nonsense. Even traditionalists don?t claim that the prophet did such a thing and they say Umar did it. You have essentially put your faith in some unknown guys supposed knowledge.
2. Why was it more correct for them to choose the year of migration to start the new era as opposed to any other date?
3. Did the god authorize them to use the first year of migration?
4. Did the god authorize them to use Muharam as the first month and not the actual month of migration?
5. If the order of the months is based on so-called Ramadan then why is it not the first month?
6. In fact, it is the other way around. Your arbitrary Ramadhan is based on the arbitrary order of the months. If the order of Shaaban was moved to after Ramadhan instead of before it then what you would now be fasting in what would have been Shaaban.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMAll we need is one reference point which is PERF 558 and new moon data, roll it all back confirms the dates.
No you use only one reference because you are building a circular argument. Here is the baseless stuff you posted:
12-Aug 2. Safar Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) Hijra
24-Feb 9. Ramadan March 17, 624 (17 Ramadan 2 AH) Badr Battle
14-Mar 10. Shawwal March 19, 625 (3 Shawwal 3 AH) Battle of Uhud
25-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah Prophet's final sermon 9th of Dhu al-Hijjah, 10 AH
24-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal 8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal, 11 AH) prophet left (pbuh)
All that PERF558 can tell us is the day 1, month 1 of the first year of the new era.
1. Do you have any evidence that the Hijra took place on 12-Aug, 622?
2. Do you have any evidence that the Hijra took place on 26 Safar (which doesn?t match the date from PERF558 or the traditional date given for migration in Rabi Al-Awwal)?
3. Do you have any evidence that the battle of Badr took place on 17 Mar, 624?
4. Do you have any evidence that the battle of Badr took place on 17 Ramadan 2 AH and not 7 Ramadan or whatever AH month or year?
5. Do you have any evidence that the battle of Uhud took place on 19 Mar, 625?
6. Do you have any evidence that the battle of Uhud took place on 3 Shawwal 3 AH and not 17 Ramadan or whatever AH month or year?
7. Do you have any evidence that the Prophet's final sermon was 22-Feb, 632?
8. Do you have any evidence that the Prophet's final sermon was on 9th of Dhu al-Hijjah, 10 AH?
9. Do you have any evidence that prophet Muhammed died on 8 June, 632?
10. Do you have any evidence that prophet Muhammed died on 12 of Rabi? al-Awwal, 11 AH?
No you don?t. So as I said, you are essentially building a circular argument. Whatever date you put, for example, for the death of the prophet will match with some date in the Gregorian calendar. But unless you have evidence saying that the prophet died on June 8 then you have not said anything other than building a circular argument.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMAs already stated there was no corruption PERF 558 absolutely confirms that it was a new moons calendar in use and not what you imply -- has ZERO to do with solstice
No PERF558 only tells us the start of the new era. I can say that the prophet died on 21 of Ramadhan, 632 and you can?t use PERF558 to prove me wrong.
I never implied that the Umar calendar uses anything other than the new moons. This is why three years after its initiation its start no longer came after the summer solstice. You are actually confirming this.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMand 17:12 does not have to state the obvious?
You mean it doesn?t have to state what is in your imagination.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 06, 2009, 05:13:23 AMI have to focus on work, like you have to fly around and this stuff is taking too much time going in circles.
Take care, have nice fast whoever is observing it.
May the god bless you in your work and travel and provides you from his bounties. I know how hard it is to keep everything balanced with work and travel.
If the traditional timing is so solid and is not an arbitrary manmade house of cards then it doesn?t need you to defend it anyway. Generally, I think that people who have been defending it probably have bigger issues to worry about than the timing. They need to stop relying on what some unknown guys knew and start relying on what they know from the god through his book and creation.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 01:40:14 AM
Peace all,
Before i quit posting in this thread, here is a quick summary from quick duck :)
1- shahar means obvious, and the only phase when the moon is obvious is the full moon phase.
2 - 17:12 tells us that the year is to be calculated using the night and day. thus the only explanation is that the year is solar. wich is completely in sync with the natural god's law of seasons. But some of you keep ignoring this.
3- When you finally realize that 'shahr' means full moon, then you will be able to count exactly 12 in a solar cycle (ie. between 2 solstices) as per 9:36
4 - the ADJECTIVE Ramadan (hot/scorching) looses its identity if the fasting period drifts all around the year, so it's logical and OBLIGATORY that the fastin period should always occur in the same season.
5 - 9:36 is clear about the fact that the "four restricted full moons" have to be consective. So again they must be in the same season to preserve the wild life they are meant for. The fact is that sectarians (there are plenty around here) are completly ignoring it.
6- Both hajj and fasting are described as being for a "numbered days" ("Ayyaman ma3doodat/easily counted" as the opposite of "ayyaman 3adeeda" which translates "numerous days"). Therefore, "numbered days" is to be 3 days min - 10 days max . Moreover, God told us that hajj is to be completed in 10 days . in the other side, we're told that we must complete the count for fasting period. It leaves no doubt that fasting period is also for 10 days.
7- God tells us that the crescents must be used for timing purposes and for the hajj. So how can you use crescents to count Exactly 10 days for hajj (and fasting as well) if not by starting the count from the full moon marker ? (Surprisingly, the time frame between the full moon stage, and "descending phases"/manazila, down untill the first next crescent is exactly 10 days). Does it ring any bell ?
8- 2:184 says that those who can afford IT (fasting ;) ) but with great difficulty may substitute it with feeding the poor, Although fasting is better for them. So there's no retribution for not fasting, but a reward/benefit for it.
9- Since the so-called islamic calendar is prooved to be 100% arbitrary and contradicts the quranic teachings, then it is not worth following it.
10 and last - [13:11] GOD does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change. If GOD wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have NONE beside Him as Lord and Master.
Enjoy your own Ramadan, see you in another thread...
Peace
This makes more sense than the traditional sectarian way of calculating ramadhan. :peace:
PEACE
Quote from: quickduck on September 05, 2009, 03:53:35 PM
By his post, Ayman just wanted to show you that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. So he replaced words in your very prior post to show you that it sounds the same. that's simple :)
Salam
Peace quickduck,
You know very well that Ayman cannot get anything right. You should let him speak/write. That way it is more fun. He is Mr. contradiction. And you are following him. Why are you speaking for him. Did cat got his tongue? You are the one who is worshipping Ayman, we worship the lord of universe.
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 12:44:02 AM
2- you're talking about the 100 % full moon which you were able to calculate using NASA websites. But what about old civilisations ? What about common people ? what about those who don't have broadband internet a few clics away from their fingers ?
Peace quickduck,
A full moon means 100% disk illumination. Ask your master, he will confirm it. The question you posed should be directed to Ayman. And yes I agree with you that common people and old civilization would not be able to determine a full moon accurately thereby defeating Ayman's screwed-up theory. Finally, you found a contradiction in Ayman's theory but were not intelligent enough to realize it.
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 01:40:14 AM
Peace all,
Before i quit posting in this thread, here is a quick summary from quick duck :)
1- shahar means obvious, and the only phase when the moon is obvious is the full moon phase.
2 - 17:12 tells us that the year is to be calculated using the night and day. thus the only explanation is that the year is solar. wich is completely in sync with the natural god's law of seasons. But some of you keep ignoring this.
3- When you finally realize that 'shahr' means full moon, then you will be able to count exactly 12 in a solar cycle (ie. between 2 solstices) as per 9:36
4 - the ADJECTIVE Ramadan (hot/scorching) looses its identity if the fasting period drifts all around the year, so it's logical and OBLIGATORY that the fastin period should always occur in the same season.
5 - 9:36 is clear about the fact that the "four restricted full moons" have to be consective. So again they must be in the same season to preserve the wild life they are meant for. The fact is that sectarians (there are plenty around here) are completly ignoring it.
6- Both hajj and fasting are described as being for a "numbered days" ("Ayyaman ma3doodat/easily counted" as the opposite of "ayyaman 3adeeda" which translates "numerous days"). Therefore, "numbered days" is to be 3 days min - 10 days max . Moreover, God told us that hajj is to be completed in 10 days . in the other side, we're told that we must complete the count for fasting period. It leaves no doubt that fasting period is also for 10 days.
7- God tells us that the crescents must be used for timing purposes and for the hajj. So how can you use crescents to count Exactly 10 days for hajj (and fasting as well) if not by starting the count from the full moon marker ? (Surprisingly, the time frame between the full moon stage, and "descending phases"/manazila, down untill the first next crescent is exactly 10 days). Does it ring any bell ?
9- Since the so-called islamic calendar is prooved to be 100% arbitrary and contradicts the quranic teachings, then it is not worth following it.
Peace quickduck,
You are shaking hand with the devil.
Peace Nabil,
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 08:23:55 PMI am very curious of Ayman's answer to this.
The great reading didn't descend on our lap from the sky. It came through Muhammed, the messenger of the god. I think that Farida is confused because I said that many of the so-called Sahaba probably didn't exist. Since she hero-worships those people, this made her confused. What I am saying is not something amazing or extra ordinary. For example, many researchers think that Abu Hurayra didn't exist and was invented by later generations.
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 08:23:55 PMI am also aware of Ayman's positions regarding certain matters in the Quran to be metaphorical / allegorical, and there was a fierce debate between members as to the fact if previous Prophets such as Abraham, David,
Solomon and even Jesus ever existed, or if they were a combination of characters, or an invention of religious leaders... this was of course something the large majority in Free-minds forcefully rejected.
All those messengers certainly existed. I don't remember taking part of any such debates and if I ever were then this is what I said.
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 08:23:55 PMAyman proposed a metaphorical explanation to the reality of Jinns and Angels (i.e. that they do not actually exist but in your head as fantasies), this was too forcefully rejected, but he still has some followers.
I never said anything about the Biblical mythical beings wearing white robes and having halos on their heads commonly named Angels and neither did the great reading. The word "malaika" literally means controllers. The controllers are very much real and have nothing to do with fantasies. You can see them performing their duties in everything that happens in the universe.
As for "jinn", you know what pushes you to do wrong and it is not ghosts or aliens. You know the truth and you know where all falsehood comes from.
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 08:23:55 PMNow if your analysis / accusation is correct, and he starts arguing that Mohammed is an allegorical figure, then we will act when this happens.
No Muhammed the messenger of the god was a real person. On the other hand, it is sectarians like the people that Farida blindly follows who have fantacized a false Muhammed who split the moon and sits next to the god and takes them into paradise on the day of the account! This false Muhammed, like all idols, is a product of the fantasy/"jinn".
Quote from: theNabster on September 05, 2009, 08:23:55 PMOtherwise, as of now, I find his argument on the counting of the years and months using his quranic and cosmological insights together with the fast directives sound.
For me it is akin to RK, with whom I did not agree with on many points, but who opened my eyes on some.
Ayman does not also always follow a strict scientific method when he peppers statements around, which for me does no good to his credibility.
But he does take risks, and is not paid for what he does. With many of us acting out of fear of the unknown just to defend our status quo, I think he, Layth, Edip Yuksel and a few others have done a lot of good to the Monotheist cause.
If your grave accusations are correct, you will still need to provide proof, i.e. e.g. that he is on the pay roll of some dark agencies.
Salam and Allah's protection to all of us...
I think that Farida's "dark agency" accusations are probably the funniest and most bankrupt argument I ever heard on the issue of the timing or any issue for that matter. I hope that you agree that the intelligent reader will recognize that such absurdity doesn't even deserve a reply. As for the unintelligent reader, well we can't help them anyway. As usual, none of those clapping for Farida have attempted to correct her. It shows that they don't really care about her since when someone I care about makes a mistake I try to correct them. I actually feel bad for Farida.
59:13. ...You think they are together but their hearts are dispersed, this is because they are people who do not reason.Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: guest on September 06, 2009, 03:02:49 PM
Peace quickduck,
A full moon means 100% disk illumination. Ask your master, he will confirm it. The question you posed should be directed to Ayman. And yes I agree with you that common people and old civilization would not be able to determine a full moon accurately thereby defeating Ayman's screwed-up theory. Finally, you found a contradiction in Ayman's theory but were not intelligent enough to realize it.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :bravo:
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 01:40:14 AM
Peace all,
Before i quit posting in this thread, here is a quick summary from quick duck :)
1- shahar means obvious, and the only phase when the moon is obvious is the full moon phase.
2 - 17:12 tells us that the year is to be calculated using the night and day. thus the only explanation is that the year is solar. wich is completely in sync with the natural god's law of seasons. But some of you keep ignoring this.
3- When you finally realize that 'shahr' means full moon, then you will be able to count exactly 12 in a solar cycle (ie. between 2 solstices) as per 9:36
4 - the ADJECTIVE Ramadan (hot/scorching) looses its identity if the fasting period drifts all around the year, so it's logical and OBLIGATORY that the fastin period should always occur in the same season.
5 - 9:36 is clear about the fact that the "four restricted full moons" have to be consective. So again they must be in the same season to preserve the wild life they are meant for. The fact is that sectarians (there are plenty around here) are completly ignoring it.
6- Both hajj and fasting are described as being for a "numbered days" ("Ayyaman ma3doodat/easily counted" as the opposite of "ayyaman 3adeeda" which translates "numerous days"). Therefore, "numbered days" is to be 3 days min - 10 days max . Moreover, God told us that hajj is to be completed in 10 days . in the other side, we're told that we must complete the count for fasting period. It leaves no doubt that fasting period is also for 10 days.
7- God tells us that the crescents must be used for timing purposes and for the hajj. So how can you use crescents to count Exactly 10 days for hajj (and fasting as well) if not by starting the count from the full moon marker ? (Surprisingly, the time frame between the full moon stage, and "descending phases"/manazila, down untill the first next crescent is exactly 10 days). Does it ring any bell ?
8- 2:184 says that those who can afford IT (fasting ;) ) but with great difficulty may substitute it with feeding the poor, Although fasting is better for them. So there's no retribution for not fasting, but a reward/benefit for it.
9- Since the so-called islamic calendar is prooved to be 100% arbitrary and contradicts the quranic teachings, then it is not worth following it.
10 and last - [13:11] GOD does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change. If GOD wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have NONE beside Him as Lord and Master.
Enjoy your own Ramadan, see you in another thread...
Peace
:bravo: now waiting to get some bashing from Farida(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4852/bepolite.gif)
I would just like to add something to the discussion on the real meaning of Ramadan. I have just read a book entitled "Islam: a concise introduction" by Neal Robinson and according to him, Ramadan does indeed mean "scorcher" and in pre-Islamic Arabia, since the Arabs operated with a luni-solar year, it was a direct reference to the midsummer month. After arriving in Medina, Mohammad ordered his followers to fast on Ashura (the Jewish Day of Atonement). Shortly afterwards, Ashura was identified with the tenth of Muharram (the first month of the Muslim Year). However, after the Muslims broke up with the Jews, the obligatory month-long fast of Ramadan was instituted and the observance of Ashura became optional. Here is how Neal Robinson explains it:
1- [2:183-4] prescribed fasting on the Jewish Day of Atonement. The reference to "days" implied that the Muslims also fasted in the period leading up to it. In addition to Ashura, they may have fasted on the first three days of every month, as some traditions suggest.
2- [2:185-6] was added, instituting the fast of Ramadan.
3- [2:187] was added to make clear that fasting should not begin before dawn.
In addition, shortly before the Prophet died, he received a revelation which abolished the lunisolar calendar and replaced it with a purely lunar one. This had the effect of making Ramadan migrate through the seasons as it does now.
For those who don't know, the break between the Muslims and Jews occured as a result of Mohammad's followers attacking a caravan in Medina, which resulted in bloodshed. Hostilities began to arise between the two groups, and according to the author, God ordered the Muslims to distinguish themselves from the Jews: this is why the qibla changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, and the days of fasting changed from the Ashura to the Ramadan that we know today.
Another interesting remark: according to Neal Robinson, some commentators cite a tradition to the effect that the first Christians were ordered to fast in Ramadan, but that finding this too arduous, they moved the fast to the spring and extended it by twenty days as a penance for what they have done. From what I have understood, the writer does not find this account historically accurate (?).
I hope that I was clear enough for everyone to understand. I am only relating what I read, in case someone might be interested in a different view.
Peace,
Muse
Peace Ayman,
I have been very confused and messed up too in my life, you know, so I do tend to forgive up to a large point.
Again off track, Jinns' cosmogony in the Quran convinces me that they are other beings, and in fact the truth
about them is probably far more fantastic than I may imagine, and among other things they seem to have the ability
to seep into humans dna in subjects of particular weaknesses/boodlines, but this is very classified research results.
Peace Progressive1993,
Since you bothered to give a little more thought and accordingly decided to change your response, I will reply to you this time. But be forewarned that if you do not read 17:12 intelligently without preconceptions and instead keep repeating the same thing over and over again, then I will resume ignoring you.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 06, 2009, 10:43:08 AMLet me change my reposne (above) a bit, which was to the following:
In the lunar calendar, night and day are also used to calculate the days of the year - it's not like the sun is ignored.
No they are not used to calculate the days of the year. There is no such concept as a "year" in a lunar calendar. One can easily make a purely lunar calendar with 1, 2, ... 13, 14, 15, ...etc. lunar months. There is no inherent number of cycles that one must "reach" or "break" at such as 12 in a purely lunar calendar. You have essentially been counting lunar cycles since year 0 AH and it doesn't matter what you call them or if you reuse the names every 12 names since their names are meaningless anyway. This is why the lunar calendar is 100% dependent on the actual month 1 that you started counting from. In order to count 12, you have to have a start and an end for the population that you are counting from. There is no such thing in a purely lunar calendar with no inherent start or end.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 06, 2009, 10:43:08 AMIt is your imagination that says that we need the solstices for that we need the solstices for that, or other things of the like.
If we use our brains, we can incorporate the counting of alternating nights and days to calculate the number of days in a year, using the lunar calendar - it's simple.
In a purely lunar calendar the day and night cannot tell you the number of years. There is nothing inherent in day and night from which you can figure out the lunar cycle or that you need to stop counting after 1, 2, ?12 or 13 or 14.. etc. lunar cycles.
17:12 mentions ONLY the day and night as a way to determine the number of years. No full-moon no crescent no any moon.
How can you determine the number of years using ONLY the day and night? This is the question. We should not try to change the question to match our preconceptions.
The answer is that the way to determine the number of years using ONLY the day and night is to count the interval between the longest/shortest day/night (i.e., the solstices). If you have a better answer then I am all of it but don?t try to change the question.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 06, 2009, 10:43:08 AM9:36 The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them. Fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. Know that God is with the righteous.
We know that one year consists of 12 lunar months- each 24-hour day is counted by alternating night and day. You count the days in the 12 lunar months and then you have the number of days in a year.
In order to ?count?, you need to know the population that you are counting out of. This is not about labeling a month XYZ, ABC, KMN... and then repeating again 12 months later the labels XYZ, ABC, KMN... since XYZ, ABC, KMN... are meaningless and you can just as well call ABC as CBA or XYZ or RST. So just repeating the meaningless labels while endlessly continuing to count out of an endless population is not counting 12. This is why the present day sectarian Ramadhan is 100% dependent on when month 1 was. You are now counting month # 17169 and haven?t stopped the counting at 12. If you took month 2 as month 1 then the present sectarian Ramadhan would have been month 17168 and you would be fasting next month. So as I said, because you haven?t stopped counting with 12 as ordered in 9:36 and instead kept counting, your present day month #17169 is tied to your month 1 and can never be independent from it. So you have now been violating 9:36 for the past 17157 lunar months.
I hope that my reply has been professional and courteous. If there is anything in it that is not clear then I will try to explain but I will not go in circles and repeat things that were already explained numerous times on this thread.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:01:56 PM
I would just like to add something to the discussion on the real meaning of Ramadan. I have just read a book entitled "Islam: a concise introduction" by Neal Robinson and according to him, Ramadan does indeed mean "scorcher" and in pre-Islamic Arabia, since the Arabs operated with a luni-solar year, it was a direct reference to the midsummer month. After arriving in Medina, Mohammad ordered his followers to fast on Ashura (the Jewish Day of Atonement). Shortly afterwards, Ashura was identified with the tenth of Muharram (the first month of the Muslim Year). However, after the Muslims broke up with the Jews, the obligatory month-long fast of Ramadan was instituted and the observance of Ashura became optional. Here is how Neal Robinson explains it:
1- [2:183-4] prescribed fasting on the Jewish Day of Atonement. The reference to "days" implied that the Muslims also fasted in the period leading up to it. In addition to Ashura, they may have fasted on the first three days of every month, as some traditions suggest.
2- [2:185-6] was added, instituting the fast of Ramadan.
3- [2:187] was added to make clear that fasting should not begin before dawn.
In addition, shortly before the Prophet died, he received a revelation which abolished the lunisolar calendar and replaced it with a purely lunar one. This had the effect of making Ramadan migrate through the seasons as it does now.
For those who don't know, the break between the Muslims and Jews occured as a result of Mohammad's followers attacking a caravan in Medina, which resulted in bloodshed. Hostilities began to arise between the two groups, and according to the author, God ordered the Muslims to distinguish themselves from the Jews: this is why the qibla changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, and the days of fasting changed from the Ashura to the Ramadan that we know today.
Another interesting remark: according to Neal Robinson, some commentators cite a tradition to the effect that the first Christians were ordered to fast in Ramadan, but that finding this too arduous, they moved the fast to the spring and extended it by twenty days as a penance for what they have done. From what I have understood, the writer does not find this account historically accurate (?).
I hope that I was clear enough for everyone to understand. I am only relating what I read, in case someone might be interested in a different view.
Peace,
Muse
If you acknowledge that the Quran was authored by God, then you wouldnt believe this BS.
I don't have any time to explain why, now... maybe tomorrow.
Peace
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 06, 2009, 05:30:36 PM
If you acknowledge that the Quran was authored by God, then you wouldnt believe this BS.
I don't have any time to explain why, now... maybe tomorrow.
Peace
I am sorry, I thought I was clear when I said that I was RELATING what I had READ in case somebody was INTERESTED in a DIFFERENT point of view.
Peace and Happy Ramadan,
Muse
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
I am sorry, I thought I was clear when I said that I was RELATING what I had READ in case somebody was INTERESTED in a DIFFERENT point of view.
Peace and Happy Ramadan,
Muse
Piece of advice, don't act like a cronie if you don't want to get bullied in this thread. :rotfl:
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
I am sorry, I thought I was clear when I said that I was RELATING what I had READ in case somebody was INTERESTED in a DIFFERENT point of view.
Peace and Happy Ramadan,
Muse
Peace
Quote from: Rami on September 06, 2009, 05:49:39 PM
Piece of advice, don't act like a cronie if you don't want to get bullied in this thread. :rotfl:
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
I am sorry, I thought I was clear when I said that I was RELATING what I had READ in case somebody was INTERESTED in a DIFFERENT point of view.
Peace and Happy Ramadan,
Muse
Sry, didnt read the whole thing - didnt have much time,
But...
that doesnt change the fact that it is total BS, does it? (Includes the abrogation theory, doesnt know that fasting in the 9th month of the lunar calendar is an ancient monotheist practice, etc.)
Have a nice Ramadan :peace:
Quote from: guest on September 06, 2009, 02:47:39 PM
Peace quickduck,
You know very well that Ayman cannot get anything right. You should let him speak/write. That way it is more fun. He is Mr. contradiction. And you are following him. Why are you speaking for him. Did cat got his tongue? You are the one who is worshipping Ayman, we worship the lord of universe.
Peace Guest
I thought we all worshiped the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE as He created everything, we also know Him as the LORD of the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH and Everything between it. Everything He created is a sign to us if only we knew how to intepret it.
May God help us and have mercy on us and guide us.
Peace
Hope
Peace Muse,
Welcome to the thread and I apologize for the rudeness of Progressive1993. Hopefully, you have read enough of the thread to understand his frustration.
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:01:56 PMI would just like to add something to the discussion on the real meaning of Ramadan. I have just read a book entitled "Islam: a concise introduction" by Neal Robinson and according to him, Ramadan does indeed mean "scorcher" and in pre-Islamic Arabia, since the Arabs operated with a luni-solar year, it was a direct reference to the midsummer month. After arriving in Medina, Mohammad ordered his followers to fast on Ashura (the Jewish Day of Atonement). Shortly afterwards, Ashura was identified with the tenth of Muharram (the first month of the Muslim Year). However, after the Muslims broke up with the Jews, the obligatory month-long fast of Ramadan was instituted and the observance of Ashura became optional. Here is how Neal Robinson explains it:
1- [2:183-4] prescribed fasting on the Jewish Day of Atonement. The reference to "days" implied that the Muslims also fasted in the period leading up to it. In addition to Ashura, they may have fasted on the first three days of every month, as some traditions suggest.
2- [2:185-6] was added, instituting the fast of Ramadan.
3- [2:187] was added to make clear that fasting should not begin before dawn.
I think that if one reads between the lines, one can see traces of the original timing amongst the corruption. Using Gregorian to Hijri converters, Muharam 1 of the first year of the new era converts to the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice. So originally the marker for the beginning of the year was the summer solstice. If the actual start of Muhrram was the scorching full-moon (shahr ramadhan) then indeed the Muslims would have fasted in the days leading up to and including the tenth of the first month (Muharram). At that time people would have still known the ramadhan/scorching full moon as the event marking the start of Muharram and not as the name of the month. Also, by its name ?Muharam? would make more sense as the first of the restricted period and not the third.
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:01:56 PMIn addition, shortly before the Prophet died, he received a revelation which abolished the lunisolar calendar and replaced it with a purely lunar one. This had the effect of making Ramadan migrate through the seasons as it does now.
For those who don't know, the break between the Muslims and Jews occured as a result of Mohammad's followers attacking a caravan in Medina, which resulted in bloodshed. Hostilities began to arise between the two groups, and according to the author, God ordered the Muslims to distinguish themselves from the Jews: this is why the qibla changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, and the days of fasting changed from the Ashura to the Ramadan that we know today.
Another interesting remark: according to Neal Robinson, some commentators cite a tradition to the effect that the first Christians were ordered to fast in Ramadan, but that finding this too arduous, they moved the fast to the spring and extended it by twenty days as a penance for what they have done. From what I have understood, the writer does not find this account historically accurate (?).
I hope that I was clear enough for everyone to understand. I am only relating what I read, in case someone might be interested in a different view.
There was definitely no break between the Muslims and the Jews. The relationship soured during the Abbasid period and this is when those traditions about the Jews were invented. On the other hand, the Romans and the Jews themselves speak of a very strong alliance between the Jews and the Arabs well into the Umayyad period. For example, here is what the Jewish Rabbi Simon ben Yohai wrote around 680CE- describing the second king of the Arabs ('Umar I):
?The second king who arises from Ishmael will be a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a mosque (hishtahawaya) there on the Temple rock, as it is said: "Your nest is set in the rock."? (Source: Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
Umar was clearly a champion of Zionism. The Romans equally talk in their writings about being invaded by an alliance between the Jews and the Arabs. They speak for example about the Jews and the Arabs upon defeating them and entering Jerusalem going to a place that the Romans used as a dump and cleaning it up and building two shrines side by side, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. For all we know, Umar himself might have been an Arab-Jew who converted but still harbored Zionist ideas.
I think that the corruption of the timing can be understood in light of this relationship between the Jews and the Arabs (who reverted to their pagan tendencies after the death of the prophet). I briefly provided some thoughts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220236#msg220236
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 03:33:00 PM
Peace Nabil,
The great reading didn't descend on our lap from the sky. It came through Muhammed, the messenger of the god. I think that Farida is confused because I said that many of the so-called Sahaba probably didn't exist. Since she hero-worships those people, this made her confused. What I am saying is not something amazing or extra ordinary. For example, many researchers think that Abu Hurayra didn't exist and was invented by later generations.
All those messengers certainly existed. I don't remember taking part of any such debates and if I ever were then this is what I said.
I never said anything about the Biblical mythical beings wearing white robes and having halos on their heads commonly named Angels and neither did the great reading. The word "malaika" literally means controllers. The controllers are very much real and have nothing to do with fantasies. You can see them performing their duties in everything that happens in the universe.
As for "jinn", you know what pushes you to do wrong and it is not ghosts or aliens. You know the truth and you know where all falsehood comes from.
No Muhammed the messenger of the god was a real person. On the other hand, it is sectarians like the people that Farida blindly follows who have fantacized a false Muhammed who split the moon and sits next to the god and takes them into paradise on the day of the account! This false Muhammed, like all idols, is a product of the fantasy/"jinn".
I think that Farida's "dark agency" accusations are probably the funniest and most bankrupt argument I ever heard on the issue of the timing or any issue for that matter. I hope that you agree that the intelligent reader will recognize that such absurdity doesn't even deserve a reply. As for the unintelligent reader, well we can't help them anyway. As usual, none of those clapping for Farida have attempted to correct her. It shows that they don't really care about her since when someone I care about makes a mistake I try to correct them. I actually feel bad for Farida.
59:13. ...You think they are together but their hearts are dispersed, this is because they are people who do not reason.
Peace,
Ayman
35:45 And if God were to punish the people for what they have earned, He would not leave a single creature standing. But He delays them to a predetermined time. Then, when their time comes, then God is Seer of His servants
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 06:18:38 PM
Peace Muse,
Welcome to the thread and I apologize for the rudeness of Progressive1993. Hopefully, you have read enough of the thread to understand his frustration.
I think that if one reads between the lines, one can see traces of the original timing amongst the corruption. Using Gregorian to Hijri converters, Muharam 1 of the first year of the new era converts to the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice. So originally the marker for the beginning of the year was the summer solstice. If the actual start of Muhrram was the scorching full-moon (shahr ramadhan) then indeed the Muslims would have fasted in the days leading up to and including the tenth of the first month (Muharram). At that time people would have still known the ramadhan/scorching full moon as the event marking the start of Muharram and not as the name of the month. Also, by its name ?Muharam? would make more sense as the first of the restricted period and not the third.
There was definitely no break between the Muslims and the Jews. The relationship soured during the Abbasid period and this is when those traditions about the Jews were invented. On the other hand, the Romans and the Jews themselves speak of a very strong alliance between the Jews and the Arabs well into the Umayyad period. For example, here is what the Jewish Rabbi Simon ben Yohai wrote around 680CE- describing the second king of the Arabs ('Umar I):
?The second king who arises from Ishmael will be a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a mosque (hishtahawaya) there on the Temple rock, as it is said: "Your nest is set in the rock."? (Source: Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
Umar was clearly a champion of Zionism. The Romans equally talk in their writings about being invaded by an alliance between the Jews and the Arabs. They speak for example about the Jews and the Arabs upon defeating them and entering Jerusalem going to a place that the Romans used as a dump and cleaning it up and building two shrines side by side, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. For all we know, Umar himself might have been an Arab-Jew who converted but still harbored Zionist ideas.
I think that the corruption of the timing can be understood in light of this relationship between the Jews and the Arabs (who reverted to their pagan tendencies after the death of the prophet). I briefly provided some thoughts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220236#msg220236
Peace,
Ayman
35:10 Whosoever is seeking pride, then know that to God belongs all Pride. To Him ascend the good words, and they are exalted by the good deeds. And as for those who scheme evil, they will have a painful retribution, and their scheming will fail.
Quote from: guest on September 06, 2009, 03:13:35 PM
Peace quickduck,
You are shaking hand with the devil.
35:8 The one whose evil work is adorned and he sees it as being good. God thus misguides whom he wills, and He guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself grieve over them. God is fully aware of what they are doing.
Quote from: Muse on September 06, 2009, 05:01:56 PM
I would just like to add something to the discussion on the real meaning of Ramadan. I have just read a book entitled "Islam: a concise introduction" by Neal Robinson and according to him, Ramadan does indeed mean "scorcher" and in pre-Islamic Arabia, since the Arabs operated with a luni-solar year, it was a direct reference to the midsummer month. After arriving in Medina, Mohammad ordered his followers to fast on Ashura (the Jewish Day of Atonement). Shortly afterwards, Ashura was identified with the tenth of Muharram (the first month of the Muslim Year). However, after the Muslims broke up with the Jews, the obligatory month-long fast of Ramadan was instituted and the observance of Ashura became optional. Here is how Neal Robinson explains it:
1- [2:183-4] prescribed fasting on the Jewish Day of Atonement. The reference to "days" implied that the Muslims also fasted in the period leading up to it. In addition to Ashura, they may have fasted on the first three days of every month, as some traditions suggest.
2- [2:185-6] was added, instituting the fast of Ramadan.
3- [2:187] was added to make clear that fasting should not begin before dawn.
In addition, shortly before the Prophet died, he received a revelation which abolished the lunisolar calendar and replaced it with a purely lunar one. This had the effect of making Ramadan migrate through the seasons as it does now.
For those who don't know, the break between the Muslims and Jews occured as a result of Mohammad's followers attacking a caravan in Medina, which resulted in bloodshed. Hostilities began to arise between the two groups, and according to the author, God ordered the Muslims to distinguish themselves from the Jews: this is why the qibla changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, and the days of fasting changed from the Ashura to the Ramadan that we know today.
Another interesting remark: according to Neal Robinson, some commentators cite a tradition to the effect that the first Christians were ordered to fast in Ramadan, but that finding this too arduous, they moved the fast to the spring and extended it by twenty days as a penance for what they have done. From what I have understood, the writer does not find this account historically accurate (?).
I hope that I was clear enough for everyone to understand. I am only relating what I read, in case someone might be interested in a different view.
Peace,
Muse
49:6 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Quote from: Rami on September 06, 2009, 05:49:39 PM
Piece of advice, don't act like a cronie if you don't want to get bullied in this thread. :rotfl:
Peace Rami
Very childish, sound like a playground bully. If you want to do that sort of thing, I am sure you are in the wrong chat room, try yahoo.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 06:32:53 PM
35:8 The one whose evil work is adorned and he sees it as being good. God thus misguides whom he wills, and He guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself grieve over them. God is fully aware of what they are doing.
قل ان الله يضل من يشاء ويهدي اليه من اناب
Say: Surely Allah makes him who will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
Peace Nabil,
Quote from: theNabster on September 06, 2009, 05:05:44 PMI have been very confused and messed up too in my life, you know, so I do tend to forgive up to a large point.
Again off track, Jinns' cosmogony in the Quran convinces me that they are other beings, and in fact the truth about them is probably far more fantastic than I may imagine, and among other things they seem to have the ability to seep into humans dna in subjects of particular weaknesses/boodlines, but this is very classified research results.
I would be interested in learning more from you. Generally speaking though, I have found the universal concepts talked about in the great reading surprisingly easy to understand once one gets to see beyond preconceptions. So my intuition tells me that "jinn" is similarly something that everyone can empiricaly verify in their everyday lives without the need to look into DNA or any highly classified research.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Hope4,
Quote from: hope4 on September 06, 2009, 06:37:16 PMVery childish, sound like a playground bully. If you want to do that sort of thing, I am sure you are in the wrong chat room, try yahoo.
I think that you misunderstood Rami. He was actually laughing at the paranoid attitude of Progressive1993 (and now Farida) against Muse or anyone that thinks of questioning (or as in the case of Muse simply sharing others' views) on the traditional arbitrary timing.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Peace Hope4,
I think that you misunderstood Rami. He was actually laughing at the paranoid attitude of Progressive1993 (and now Farida) against Muse or anyone that thinks of questioning (or as in the case of Muse simply sharing others' views) on the traditional arbitrary timing.
Peace,
Ayman
35:43 Arrogance on Earth, and evil scheming. And the evil schemes only backfire on those who scheme them. Were they expecting anything different from the ways used on the people of the past? You will not find any change in God's way, and you will not find any bypass to God's way.
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Peace Hope4,
I think that you misunderstood Rami. He was actually laughing at the paranoid attitude of Progressive1993 (and now Farida) against Muse or anyone that thinks of questioning (or as in the case of Muse simply sharing others' views) on the traditional arbitrary timing.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Thankyou for pointing that out to me and may Rami please accept my appologies. :peace:
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on September 06, 2009, 06:52:04 PM
Peace Ayman
Thankyou for pointing that out to me and may Rami please accept my appologies. :peace:
Peace
Hope
You can only warn him who follows the reminder, and reverences the Almighty while unseen. Give him good news of forgiveness and a generous reward.
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3644/observingramadan.jpg)
Sorry for the loosers :'(
Peace Ayman,
I think some of us here have issues (cough cough ~##)
anyways classified means classified... (a hint Monsanto)...
as for preconceptions, the Quran in several numerous descriptions of Jinns in many contexts
does not leave much room but to accept that they are beings, albeit from another realm time/space
continuum adjacent/contiguous to ours, it is like us living in 2D and them in 3D so they have an extra edge,
but it could be far more complex, especially if as it has been put forward by some, they are plasma beings.
Of course you are very materialistic and minimalistic in your views so whatever you cannot see, or break
down into a smallest denominator you will disregard.
I am the opposite, looking at things as possibilities, otherwise, why do I believe in Allah whom I do not see,
it is not such a big leap that if He advises me that there are beings out there who are beyond the frequency range of
my vision or senses, I will as a matter of fact believe Him, one follows the other.
And indeed I am convinced this is what it is, they operate beyond frequency ranges that our senses and instruments can measure,
and they are able to lower their frequencies to morph into our realm to manipulate when/if they can.
This is why Allah asks us to protect ourselves against the devious among them.
Now on a conspiratorial note, some believe that there is an ongoing program to make humans even more susceptible to these
jinns manipulations with GM food, and psychotropic medicines and dna manipulations.
The Quran does prophesise that humans will in the future modify God's creation, and it is happening...
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 06:55:48 PM
You can only warn him who follows the reminder, and reverences the Almighty while unseen. Give him good news of forgiveness and a generous reward.
Peace Farida
You seem to be talk in riddles, whats your problem? I suggest you are spending too much time on the internet. May I suggest a life!
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on September 06, 2009, 07:03:40 PM
Peace Farida
You seem to be talk in riddles, whats your problem? I suggest you are spending too much time on the internet. May I suggest a life!
Peace
Hope
When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy.
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 07:12:19 PM
When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy.
Peace Farida
Thanks for the reminder.
Peace
Hope
Ah, lovely. A ramadhan thread has been turned into Sunday service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: theNabster on September 06, 2009, 07:02:37 PM
Peace Ayman,
I think some of us here have issues (cough cough ~##)
anyways classified means classified... (a hint Monsanto)...
as for preconceptions, the Quran in several numerous descriptions of Jinns in many contexts
does not leave much room but to accept that they are beings, albeit from another realm time/space
continuum adjacent/contiguous to ours, it is like us living in 2D and them in 3D so they have an extra edge,
but it could be far more complex, especially if as it has been put forward by some, they are plasma beings.
Of course you are very materialistic and minimalistic in your views so whatever you cannot see, or break
down into a smallest denominator you will disregard.
I am the opposite, looking at things as possibilities, otherwise, why do I believe in Allah whom I do not see,
it is not such a big leap that if He advises me that there are beings out there who are beyond the frequency range of
my vision or senses, I will as a matter of fact believe Him, one follows the other.
And indeed I am convinced this is what it is, they operate beyond frequency ranges that our senses and instruments can measure,
and they are able to lower their frequencies to morph into our realm to manipulate when/if they can.
This is why Allah asks us to protect ourselves against the devious among them.
Now on a conspiratorial note, some believe that there is an ongoing program to make humans even more susceptible to these
jinns manipulations with GM food, and psychotropic medicines and dna manipulations.
The Quran does prophesise that humans will in the future modify God's creation, and it is happening...
Peace,
Don't take this as a charge;but, what does this have to with ramadan? I am, simply, trying to follow this thread.
Peace All,
I decided not to argue anymore in this thread
Farida decided to tell us good bye
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 01:41:05 PM
I rest my case. Good bye everyone .
Surprisingly, she gave her login/password to that Grown Beard Imam to continue posting on her name. Let's see if it is correct...
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 01:41:05 PM
The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 06:55:48 PM
You can only warn him who follows the reminder, and reverences the Almighty while unseen. Give him good news of forgiveness and a generous reward.
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 06:46:56 PM
35:43 Arrogance on Earth, and evil scheming. And the evil schemes only backfire on those who scheme them. Were they expecting anything different from the ways used on the people of the past? You will not find any change in God's way, and you will not find any bypass to God's way.
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 06:36:18 PM
49:6 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 06:32:53 PM
35:8 The one whose evil work is adorned and he sees it as being good. God thus misguides whom he wills, and He guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself grieve over them. God is fully aware of what they are doing.
Farida has definitly turned onto a FULLY GROWN BEARD IMAM.
Forget the old bankrupt Farida, it's now up to the imam to Curse and Scare those who come to this forum seeking the truth !
Pathetic !!
@farida :
www.free-minds.org it's not the place you looked for.
Try this one :
double YOU double YOU double YOU ,TAUGHT, open-mouths, you're welCOM.
Quote from: quickduck on September 06, 2009, 07:41:10 PM
Peace All,
I decided not to argue anymore in this thread
Farida decided to tell us good bye
Surprisingly, she gave her login/password to that Grown Beard Imam to continue posting on her name. Let's see if it is correct...
Farida has definitly turned onto a FULLY GROWN BEARD IMAM.
Forget the old bankrupt Farida, it's now up to the imam to Curse and Scare those who come to this forum seeking the truth !
Pathetic !!
And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord's revelations, then he turns away from them? We will exact a punishment from the criminals.
:rotfl:
Quote from: farida on September 06, 2009, 07:52:38 PM
And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord's revelations, then he turns away from them? We will exact a punishment from the criminals.
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6576/peoplecryingbeforethelo.jpg)
Quote from: ayman on September 05, 2009, 10:54:34 PM
No only humans do. All of the god?s creatures naturally follow the solar cycle except Sunnis, Shias and 19ers.
Ayman, you are wrong about this...please reread the Quran before giving an absolute answer
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 12:20:22 PM
You have not answered the question and instead you have given stuff which has nothing to do with the solstice moon "illusion". Here is a hint from:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.
The "illusion" has nothing to do with the actual size of the full-moon. This is why it is called an "illusion". It has to do with the altitude of the full-moon.
From: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm
For the same reason that sunsets can be vivid red, the low-hanging moon frequently takes on a beautiful pink or orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere.
The key here is that this full-moon takes the lowest path accross the horizon compared with other full-moons. ONLY two full-moons are "solstice moons", the one before the sosltice and the one after the solstice. Given the association of the term "ramadhan" with heat then this fits better with the moon AFTER the solstice. Here is the data (for Washington, DC) for the one on July 6 this year compared to the one that you refer to above in December 2008:
Data for night of July 6, 2009:
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 0.6 123.5 1.00
19:40 2.0 125.1 1.00
19:50 3.5 126.6 1.00
20:00 4.9 128.2 1.00
20:10 6.4 129.9 1.00
20:20 7.8 131.6 1.00
20:30 9.2 133.3 1.00
20:40 10.5 135.0 1.00
20:50 11.9 136.8 1.00
21:00 13.1 138.7 1.00
21:10 14.4 140.5 1.00
21:20 15.6 142.5 1.00
21:30 16.7 144.4 1.00
21:40 17.8 146.5 1.00
21:50 18.8 148.5 1.00
22:00 19.8 150.6 1.00
22:10 20.7 152.8 1.00
22:20 21.5 155.0 1.00
22:30 22.3 157.2 1.00
22:40 23.0 159.5 1.00
22:50 23.7 161.8 1.00
23:00 24.2 164.1 1.00
23:10 24.7 166.5 1.00
23:20 25.1 168.9 1.00
23:30 25.5 171.3 1.00
23:40 25.7 173.8 1.00
23:50 25.9 176.2 1.00
Data for night of December 12, 2008:
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:50 1.3 56.2 1.00
17:00 2.7 57.6 1.00
17:10 4.2 59.1 1.00
17:20 5.8 60.5 1.00
17:30 7.4 61.9 1.00
17:40 9.0 63.2 1.00
17:50 10.7 64.6 1.00
18:00 12.4 65.9 1.00
18:10 14.1 67.2 1.00
18:20 15.8 68.5 1.00
18:30 17.5 69.8 1.00
18:40 19.3 71.1 1.00
18:50 21.1 72.4 1.00
19:00 22.8 73.6 1.00
19:10 24.6 74.9 1.00
19:20 26.5 76.2 1.00
19:30 28.3 77.5 1.00
19:40 30.1 78.7 1.00
19:50 31.9 80.0 1.00
20:00 33.8 81.3 1.00
20:10 35.6 82.6 1.00
20:20 37.5 84.0 1.00
20:30 39.4 85.3 1.00
20:40 41.2 86.7 1.00
20:50 43.1 88.2 1.00
21:00 45.0 89.6 1.00
21:10 46.9 91.2 1.00
21:20 48.8 92.7 1.00
21:30 50.6 94.4 1.00
21:40 52.5 96.1 1.00
21:50 54.4 97.9 1.00
22:00 56.2 99.8 1.00
22:10 58.1 101.9 1.00
22:20 59.9 104.1 1.00
22:30 61.7 106.5 1.00
22:40 63.5 109.2 1.00
22:50 65.3 112.1 1.00
23:00 67.0 115.3 1.00
23:10 68.7 118.9 1.00
23:20 70.3 123.1 1.00
23:30 71.9 127.8 1.00
23:40 73.3 133.2 1.00
23:50 74.6 139.5 1.00
Notice that the one on July 6 rose to a an altitude of less than 26 degress by midnight. On the other hand, the one in December rose much higher to an altitude of 74.6 degrees by the same time. In addition, notice the rate of climb for the July 6 scorching full-moon is much lower than the one in December. The low altitude and the slow climb is what gives the solstice moon illusion and the red color as the low altitude lasts for a long time, unlike the moon in December that climbs very quickly.
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/intro9.htm
As explained in the above article there are different theories on the full moon illusion and interesting
Azimuth is derived from Arabic السمت ('as-simt'), which means direction, referring...
Full moon rising from the 2500 year old temple of PoseidonImage taken: Jun. 18, 2008 Location: Sounio, Greece.
(http://spaceweather.com/swpod2008/19jun08/Elias-Chasiotis1_strip2.jpg)
What is certain the FULL MOON ILLUSION which I saw last year after sunset as above...
2008 June 18 BEFORE the solstice was HUGE!
2008 July 18 AFTER the solstice -- was there a moon illusion, did you see it last year, Ayman?
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2008&n=263
Data for July 18, 2008 http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
00:00 27.0 177.4 1.00
00:10 27.0 179.9 1.00
00:20 27.0 182.4 1.00
00:30 26.9 184.9 1.00
00:40 26.7 187.4 1.00
00:50 26.5 189.9 1.00
01:00 26.1 192.4 1.00
01:10 25.7 194.8 1.00
01:20 25.2 197.2 1.00
01:30 24.6 199.6 1.00
01:40 24.0 202.0 1.00
01:50 23.3 204.3 1.00
02:00 22.5 206.5 1.00
02:10 21.6 208.8 1.00
02:20 20.7 211.0 1.00
02:30 19.7 213.1 1.00
02:40 18.7 215.2 1.00
02:50 17.6 217.2 1.00
03:00 16.4 219.3 1.00
03:10 15.2 221.2 1.00
03:20 14.0 223.1 1.00
03:30 12.7 225.0 1.00
03:40 11.4 226.8 1.00
03:50 10.0 228.6 1.00
04:00 8.6
230.4 1.00
04:10 7.2 232.1 1.00
04:20 5.7 233.8 1.00
04:30 4.2 235.4 1.00
04:40 2.8 237.0 1.00
04:50 1.3 238.6 1.00
05:00 -0.1 240.2 1.00
05:10 -2.3 241.7 1.00
05:20 -4.0 243.2 1.00
05:30 -5.6 244.7 1.00
05:40 -7.3 246.1 1.00
05:50 -9.0 247.6 1.00
06:00 -10.8 249.0 1.00
19:00 -11.2 108.0 1.00
19:10 -9.4 109.4 1.00
19:20 -7.6 110.8 1.00
19:30 -5.9 112.3 1.00
19:40 -4.1 113.7 1.00
19:50 -2.4 115.2 1.00
20:00 -0.1 116.7 0.99
20:10 1.4 118.2
0.99 after sunset
20:20 2.9 119.7 0.99
20:30 4.5 121.3 0.99
20:40 6.1 122.9 0.99
20:50 7.7 124.5 0.99
21:00 9.2 126.2 0.99
21:10 10.7 127.9 0.99
21:20 12.2 129.7 0.99
21:30 13.7 131.5 0.99
21:40 15.1 133.3 0.99
21:50 16.4 135.2 0.99
22:00 17.8 137.2 0.99
22:10 19.1 139.2 0.99
22:20 20.3 141.2 0.99
22:30 21.5 143.3 0.99
22:40 22.6 145.5 0.99
22:50 23.7 147.7 0.99
23:00 24.7 149.9 0.99
23:10 25.6 152.2 0.99
23:20 26.5 154.6 0.99
23:30 27.3 157.0 0.99
23:40 28.0 159.5 0.99
23:50 28.7
162.0 0.99
FACT is your kill season and full moons "drift" after the solstice from June 21 to July 20...
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 12:20:22 PM
You don't fast a full-moon so if this is the meaning then this is why how long the fast id given in 2:184-185, otherwise saying the fast is for a few days and saying that it is for a month would be contradictory or at best redundant.
It can go either way as the preceding "hu" refers to the "abstinence that was dictated on you".
Not redundant, a few days is relative (i.e. a week, a month, a year) and to fast a month is not a big deal.
Please address the question about full moon illusion last year, YES/NO and we can move on to the others.
Peace
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 03:33:00 PM
Peace Nabil,
I think that Farida is confused because I said that many of the so-called Sahaba probably didn't exist. Since she hero-worships those people, this made her confused. What I am saying is not something amazing or extra ordinary. For example, many researchers think that Abu Hurayra didn't exist and was invented by later generations.
On the other hand, it is sectarians like the people that Farida blindly follows who have fantacized a false Muhammed who split the moon and sits next to the god and takes them into paradise on the day of the account! This false Muhammed, like all idols, is a product of the fantasy/"jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
Attention Moderators
Salaam everyone,
I would like you to stop this malicious campaign and stop Ayman from spreading deliberate lies, as my reply below reflects my stance:
Quote from: farida on September 01, 2009, 11:30:08 PM
Peace Ayman,
I am sorry; your ranting has gone sooo boring that I don't even bother to read your full reply...you are like a kid who, wanting to have the last world, puts his fingers in his ears and, with eyes closed repeats: you you you you you. ::)
You know what; I understand the reason that gave birth to Muslim and Bukhari. It was because of people exactly like you, who were hell bent on destroying the deen, that the need arose for hadiths ... and again a disguised satan, in the form of Abu Huraira, sneaked in there too like in movie the "Devil's advocate".
:peace:
Ps: In fact you have given yourself too much credit in believing that you can replace the Prophet.
I would also like the readers and the moderators to make a note that I bade goodbye to this circular discussion, but not to this thread.
Ayman, seeing that I have left the discussion, taking advantage of my absence and starting his spiteful propaganda again as everyone can see in his reply above and in the interast of decency and fairness I would request the moderators to investigage and put an end to this at their earliest.
Best wishes and regards
farida
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2009, 10:04:36 AM
Attention Moderators
Ayman, seeing that I have left the discussion, taking advantage of my absence and starting his spiteful propaganda again as everyone can see in his above and in the interast of decency and fairness I would request the moderators to investigage and put an end to this at their earliest.
Best wishes and regards
farida
You never left this thread, let alone circular arguing, for more than 4 hours. timing of your yesterday's posts are proof that you are lying.
You came back , in your grown beard Imam Jellaba, less than 4 hours after you bade goodbye and started again acting like " a kid who, wanting to have the last word, puts his fingers in his ears and, with eyes closed repeats : Allah will curse YOU YOU YOU YOU ! "
Moderators are not the blind ones.
salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 07, 2009, 10:36:56 AM
You never left this thread, let alone circular arguing, for more than 4 hours. timing of your yesterday's posts are proof that you are lying.
You came back , in your grown beard Imam Jellaba, less than 4 hours after you bade goodbye and started again acting like " a kid who, wanting to have the last word, puts his fingers in his ears and, with eyes closed repeats : Allah will curse YOU YOU YOU YOU ! "
Moderators are not the blind ones.
salam
Salaam
Can't you see the difference between my words and God's words ???
And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
Peace Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 06:18:38 PM
Welcome to the thread and I apologize for the rudeness of Progressive1993. Hopefully, you have read enough of the thread to understand his frustration.
:laugh:
Why frustration?
4:88 ...Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a way.
Going back to fasting/ramadan:
Fasting is an ancient monotheistic practice - neither God, nor Muhammad arbitrarily/randomly decided to impose fasting just like that or changed the calendar just before Muhamamd's death.
Besides, my response was not going personally to Muse, rather to the info presented, unlike what you have done to me (as shown above).
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 05:15:01 PM
if you do not read 17:12 intelligently without preconceptions and instead keep repeating the same thing over and over again, then I will resume ignoring you.
:&
By 'intelligently' you mean 'that which accords with your opinion only', assume.
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 05:15:01 PM
No they are not used to calculate the days of the year. There is no such concept as a "year" in a lunar calendar. One can easily make a purely lunar calendar with 1, 2, ... 13, 14, 15, ...etc. lunar months. There is no inherent number of cycles that one must "reach" or "break" at such as 12 in a purely lunar calendar. You have essentially been counting lunar cycles since year 0 AH and it doesn't matter what you call them or if you reuse the names every 12 names since their names are meaningless anyway. This is why the lunar calendar is 100% dependent on the actual month 1 that you started counting from. In order to count 12, you have to have a start and an end for the population that you are counting from. There is no such thing in a purely lunar calendar with no inherent start or end.
Count 12 lunar months/cycles and you have a year.
As you may know, the '4 inviolable (haram) months (or full moon, if you like)' are well-known, as asserted in the Quran - which are these according to you? 12 months (or full moons, if you like) are to be counted in a year... now, can you please gíve me a deatiled calendar, since if you have 12 full moons/months and 4 of them are inviolable/restricted, then you must have a complete calendar. Can you please show me your calendar and provide evidence for this particular calendar to have been followed by Muhammad, his companions (people), earlier prophets, etc.? I am quite sure that they not only counted a year from one summer solstice to the other, then had 4 restricted/inviolable months/full moons and that's it - where did the rest of the timing/calculation go? I thought your calendar/way of counting (using the sun and moon) could calculate THE WHOLE YEAR.
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 05:15:01 PM
17:12 mentions ONLY the day and night as a way to determine the number of years. No full-moon no crescent no any moon. How can you determine the number of years using ONLY the day and night? This is the question. We should not try to change the question to match our preconceptions.
As I said, we need to use our brains... we count as follows: night, day... night, day.. night, day... ... ... ... (one lunar cylcle finshed) - and so on. I hope you understood. BTW, you also have used markers, namely, the summer solstices - how are you going to do it without them? You accuse my arguement to be wrong/question it because I said that Muslims use the lunar cycles - this is clearly a double standard.
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 05:15:01 PM
The answer is that the way to determine the number of years using ONLY the day and night is to count the interval between the longest/shortest day/night (i.e., the solstices). If you have a better answer then I am all of it but don’t try to change the question.
Thanks for sharing your personal opinion - please check my last post´and my response to your last quote above. If you think that your way is the only possible way or is unique, then please elaborate/refute what I have said.
Note that I am
not saying that this is
not a possibility/impossible, but it is defintely not
THE (only) answer/way to understand this.
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 05:15:01 PM
In order to “count”, you need to know the population that you are counting out of. This is not about labeling a month XYZ, ABC, KMN... and then repeating again 12 months later the labels XYZ, ABC, KMN... since XYZ, ABC, KMN... are meaningless and you can just as well call ABC as CBA or XYZ or RST. So just repeating the meaningless labels while endlessly continuing to count out of an endless population is not counting 12. This is why the present day sectarian Ramadhan is 100% dependent on when month 1 was. You are now counting month # 17169 and haven’t stopped the counting at 12. If you took month 2 as month 1 then the present sectarian Ramadhan would have been month 17168 and you would be fasting next month. So as I said, because you haven’t stopped counting with 12 as ordered in 9:36 and instead kept counting, your present day month #17169 is tied to your month 1 and can never be independent from it. So you have now been violating 9:36 for the past 17157 lunar months.
12 lunar cycles/months ----> 1 lunar year
Why do we have years? To make counting of time easier; so why
would you say seventeen-thousand... months? The above example given by you seems very much like a straw man to me.
Besides, who were you addressing with 'you'? I havent been around for that long :laugh:
Peace :peace:
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 06:18:38 PM
Peace Muse,
Welcome to the thread and I apologize for the rudeness of Progressive1993. Hopefully, you have read enough of the thread to understand his frustration.
I think that if one reads between the lines, one can see traces of the original timing amongst the corruption. Using Gregorian to Hijri converters, Muharam 1 of the first year of the new era converts to the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice. So originally the marker for the beginning of the year was the summer solstice. If the actual start of Muhrram was the scorching full-moon (shahr ramadhan) then indeed the Muslims would have fasted in the days leading up to and including the tenth of the first month (Muharram). At that time people would have still known the ramadhan/scorching full moon as the event marking the start of Muharram and not as the name of the month. Also, by its name ?Muharam? would make more sense as the first of the restricted period and not the third.
There was definitely no break between the Muslims and the Jews. The relationship soured during the Abbasid period and this is when those traditions about the Jews were invented. On the other hand, the Romans and the Jews themselves speak of a very strong alliance between the Jews and the Arabs well into the Umayyad period. For example, here is what the Jewish Rabbi Simon ben Yohai wrote around 680CE- describing the second king of the Arabs ('Umar I):
?The second king who arises from Ishmael will be a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a mosque (hishtahawaya) there on the Temple rock, as it is said: "Your nest is set in the rock."? (Source: Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
Umar was clearly a champion of Zionism. The Romans equally talk in their writings about being invaded by an alliance between the Jews and the Arabs. They speak for example about the Jews and the Arabs upon defeating them and entering Jerusalem going to a place that the Romans used as a dump and cleaning it up and building two shrines side by side, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. For all we know, Umar himself might have been an Arab-Jew who converted but still harbored Zionist ideas.
I think that the corruption of the timing can be understood in light of this relationship between the Jews and the Arabs (who reverted to their pagan tendencies after the death of the prophet). I briefly provided some thoughts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220236#msg220236
Peace,
Ayman
Regarding this piece of history, I read a historical document called "Story of Heraclius" written by a christian armenian writer of the 7 th century, this writer witnessed some events and related others. Anyway he relates about arab invasion of Jerusalem and Armenia, and he mentionned that the jews of Jerusalem went to the arabs showing them that they were "cousin" by the bible, and there were requesting Mohamad for help against the Romans. Which they did and could take Jerusalem.
here is a link of the translated document in french, originaly translated from armenian.
http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/sebeos/heraclius.htm
regards
Quote from: ayman on September 06, 2009, 03:33:00 PM
Peace Nabil,
The great reading didn't descend on our lap from the sky. It came through Muhammed, the messenger of the god. I think that Farida is confused because I said that many of the so-called Sahaba probably didn't exist. Since she hero-worships those people, this made her confused. What I am saying is not something amazing or extra ordinary. For example, many researchers think that Abu Hurayra didn't exist and was invented by later generations.
From the document mentionned before "Story of Heraclius" some sahaba were mentionned and we can find that Othman for example died in a battle, in the arabic history it is not mentionned because they were so ashamed.
peace
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 08:57:06 AMhttp://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/intro9.htm
As explained in the above article there are different theories on the full moon illusion and interesting Azimuth is derived from Arabic السمت ('as-simt'), which means direction, referring...
Here is the title of the entire article that you refer to:
Why the Moon Looks Big at the Horizon
and Smaller When Higher UpSo you admit that the solstice full-moon illusion is due to the full-moon taking a low path accross the horizon. Now use the following website and tell everyone the path that the full-moon took each month and tell us which TWO full-moons took the lowest path:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
The answer is that the TWO full-moons that took the LOWEST path are the full-moons BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. This fact is so indisputable that I don't even need to check the data through the link about. However, since you are doubting this then post the data and show me wrong.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 08:57:06 AMFACT is your kill season and full moons "drift" after the solstice from June 21 to July 20...
FACT is your kill season is 100% arbitrary and drifts from January 1 to December 31.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 08:57:06 AMNot redundant, a few days is relative (i.e. a week, a month, a year) and to fast a month is not a big deal.
Great, invent an imaginery meaning for "ma'adoodat"/few (3-10) to match your preconception. As far as I remember, the dictionary didn't say that it is "relative" and that 100 million which is relatively small compared to a Billion can mean "few". What you are saying is nonsense in any language, not just Arabic. If you didn't have your preconception from the sectarian nonsense then you wouldn't be stuck and forced to invent a new illogical meaning.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 08:57:06 AMPlease address the question about full moon illusion last year, YES/NO and we can move on to the others.
As I said, post the elevation data for ALL the full moons from last year and tell us which TWO take the lowest path:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 07, 2009, 11:05:18 AMWhy frustration?
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 06, 2009, 05:58:27 PMSry, didnt read the whole thing - didnt have much time,
The frustration and lack of patience that as you ADMITTED to Muse prevented you from reading her post properly. This is also the same thing that is preventing you from reading anything properly. The questions that you are asking have been addressed in my post and on PAGE 1 of this long thread. No sense repeating for someone who is not able to read properly no matter what. This is not just a problem on this thread but in all discussions that you participate in. I sincerely suggest that you get tested to see if you suffer from a learning disability so that you can correct it.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace ayman,
I alredy advised him to take a I test.
I am not sure he did :)
Peace
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 12:18:50 PM
The frustration and lack of patience that as you ADMITTED to Muse prevented you from reading her post properly. This is also the same thing that is preventing you from reading anything properly. The questions that you are asking have been addressed in my post and on PAGE 1 of this long thread. No sense repeating for someone who is not able to read properly no matter what. This is not just a problem on this thread but in all discussions that you participate in. I sincerely suggest that you get tested to see if you suffer from a learning disability so that you can correct it.
Thank you for your concern. I am delighted.
BTW, at least I can admit mistakes, and what I said about that post where Muse quoted some guy was true.
Instead of attacking me personally the whole time, you could have responded to the following:
Quotewe count as follows: night, day... night, day.. night, day... ... ... ... (one lunar cylcle finshed) - and so on. I hope you understood. BTW, you also have used markers, namely, the summer solstices - how are you going to do it without them? You accuse my arguement to be wrong/question it because I said that Muslims use the lunar cycles - this is clearly a double standard.
How is your system unique and 'the only one' that fits with 17:12? Dont you have markers as well (ie. not only calculate the year with days), namely the summer solstices?
Also, what do you say about what is said in the Bible about fasting in the ninth month of the lunar calendar?
Quote from: quickduck on September 07, 2009, 01:26:23 PM
Peace ayman,
I alredy advised him to take a I test.
I am not sure he did :)
Peace
1. That was 'guest' whom you told that.
2. We have seen your insightful, ayman-cheering posts
Also, ayman, you are showing very good and respectful arguementation skills by attacking me personally and nagging on this one thing I said about Muse's post, although the part about it being bogus is still true. I have understood and I have corrected what I have said - no need to continue on this. If you are willing to continue with the actual them of this taopic (ramadan), then I am happy to continue discussing.
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 07, 2009, 02:04:31 PMThank you for your concern. I am delighted.
BTW, at least I can admit mistakes, and what I said about that post where Muse quoted some guy was true.
You are welcome. I would say the same advice to my own brother if he was not reading patiently and correctly. We all have weaknesses and the key is to indentify them so that one can cope with them by devising learning aids. For example, some people are more auditory than visual so reading out loud might help them to understand the text better and not skip things.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 07, 2009, 02:04:31 PMInstead of attacking me personally the whole time, you could have responded to the following:
How is your system unique and 'the only one' that fits with 17:12? Dont you have markers as well (ie. not only calculate the year with days), namely the summer solstices?
This is exactly what I am talking about. The way you read, you do not try to put yourself in the shoes of the author or go a layer deeper than superficial reading. You just read "summer solstice" and think that like you (using the moon) I am using a marker not mentioned in 17:12, which only mentions "day and night". What you fail to see is that the "summer solstice" is just a convenient label but go a layer deeper and you will see that it stands for "longest day and shortest night". So per 17:12, I am ONLY using the night and the day to determine the number of years.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 07, 2009, 02:04:31 PMAlso, what do you say about what is said in the Bible about fasting in the ninth month of the lunar calendar?
This was already answered by me as well as Rami. You are free to agree or disagree but repeating the same thing and expecting a different result only demonstrates that you have not understood our answers and have nothing further to say. Unlike you, I will not repeat the same thing and expect different results and I will not waste time on providing more info when you have not understood the first ones.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 07, 2009, 02:04:31 PMAlso, ayman, you are showing very good and respectful arguementation skills by attacking me personally and nagging on this one thing I said about Muse's post, although the part about it being bogus is still true. I have understood and I have corrected what I have said - no need to continue on this. If you are willing to continue with the actual them of this taopic (ramadan), then I am happy to continue discussing.
But we can't continue to discuss if you are not able to read what I ALREADY wrote. I would suggest that you reread what I wrote while trying to put yourself in my shoes and read with a sense of depth. Afterwards, start by making a list of the things that make sense to you from reading what I wrote (doesn't matter if you agree with them or not). Next, make a list of the things that don't make sense to you. Finally, put together the two lists and see if the things that make sense to you can explain what doesn't make sense. If something still doesn't make sense then ask and I will gladly answer. This has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing with me. At this stage, it is clear that you don't even understand what I wrote so you are in no position to agree or not agree and this is why you keep going in circles. This is the advice that I would sincerely give to my own brother if he was in your situation.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 02:52:34 PM
But we can't continue to discuss if you are not able to read what I ALREADY wrote. I would suggest that you reread what I wrote while trying to put yourself in my shoes and read with a sense of depth. Afterwards, start by making a list of the things that make sense to you from reading what I wrote (doesn't matter if you agree with them or not). Next, make a list of the things that don't make sense to you. Finally, put together the two lists and see if the things that make sense to you can explain what doesn't make sense. If something still doesn't make sense then ask and I will gladly answer. This has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing with me. At this stage, it is clear that you don't even understand what I wrote so you are in no position to agree or not agree and this is why you keep going in circles.
I will take your advice and do that.
:peace:
Peace herbman
and The God rewards you,
I saved the article, it is a very good one, and being a fluent french speaker, I will read it
and God willing benefit from it.
Salam
Nabster
Quote from: herbman on September 07, 2009, 11:26:21 AM
From the document mentionned before "Story of Heraclius" some sahaba were mentionned and we can find that Othman for example died in a battle, in the arabic history it is not mentionned because they were so ashamed.
peace
Peace Herbman,
Quote from: herbman on September 07, 2009, 11:17:11 AMRegarding this piece of history, I read a historical document called "Story of Heraclius" written by a christian armenian writer of the 7 th century, this writer witnessed some events and related others. Anyway he relates about arab invasion of Jerusalem and Armenia, and he mentionned that the jews of Jerusalem went to the arabs showing them that they were "cousin" by the bible, and there were requesting Mohamad for help against the Romans. Which they did and could take Jerusalem.
here is a link of the translated document in french, originaly translated from armenian.
http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/sebeos/heraclius.htm
Thank you for poviding this interesting link. Here is the same info in English for those who are interested:
http://rbedrosian.com/seb1.htm
What I find most interesting is his accounts of the very strong alliance between the Jews and the Arabs completely contradicting the traditional accounts, which have erased all references to this important alliance and the critical role that it played in the conquests and instead made Jews the enemies. I also find interesting his brief account of the Arab civil wars which also contradicts traditional accounts.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace every one
We should refrain ourselves from throwing verses on others and calling them rejecters these verses are not for us but for those who rejected Gods command different opinions and interpretation does not make one rejecter are Mushrik. :angel:
Quote from: afridi220 on September 07, 2009, 03:57:26 PM
Peace every one
We should refrain ourselves from throwing verses on others and calling them rejecters these verses are not for us but for those who rejected Gods command different opinions and interpretation does not make one rejecter are Mushrik. :angel:
Peace Afridi,
So this thread is for you to post silly characters and pictures in the middle of a serious discussion. Have you contributed anything worthwhile so far?
Muse had been fed lies by Neal Robinson as well as Ayman, so what is wrong if I post a very relevant reminder from the Qur?an. 49:6
O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done. Every verses posted was relevant to the topic. You know what is the biggest problem with you people? You see the Quran as a guidance for Mushrik and rejecters not for yourselves and when you are reminded you feel offended although the reminder is directed at the believers!
Read this is a a reminder for people who believe:
29:51
Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe. :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2009, 04:30:50 PM
Peace Afridi,
So this thread is for you to post silly characters and pictures in the middle of a serious discussion. Have you contributed anything worthwhile so far?
Muse had been fed lies by Neal Robinson as well as Ayman, so what is wrong if I post a very relevant reminder from the Qur?an. 49:6 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Every verses posted was relevant to the topic. You know what is the biggest problem with you people? You see the Quran as a guidance for Mushrik and rejecters not for yourselves and when you are reminded you feel offended although the reminder is directed at the believers!
Read this is a a reminder for people who believe:
29:51 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.
:peace:
And what is this is this a reminder for believers most wise and knowledgable Farida.
And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.that is what you are conributed. ???
Quote from: afridi220 on September 07, 2009, 04:42:56 PM
And what is this is this a reminder for believers most wise and knowledgable Farida.
And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
that is what you are conributed. ???
Salaam
Yes this is a very chilling reminder for the believers not to slump to that stege, ahh if only you would pay heed to the warning.
We never annihilate any community without sending warners.
By way of a reminder, and We were never unjust :peace:
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2009, 04:30:50 PM
Peace Afridi,
So this thread is for you to post silly characters and pictures in the middle of a serious discussion. Have you contributed anything worthwhile so far?
Muse had been fed lies by Neal Robinson as well as Ayman, so what is wrong if I post a very relevant reminder from the Qur?an. 49:6 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Every verses posted was relevant to the topic. You know what is the biggest problem with you people? You see the Quran as a guidance for Mushrik and rejecters not for yourselves and when you are reminded you feel offended although the reminder is directed at the believers!
Read this is a a reminder for people who believe:
29:51 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.
:peace:
17:53 And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man.(http://www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat17_files/17_53.gif)
41:34 And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend. :)
(http://www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat41_files/41_34.gif)
Peace Farida and Afridi, all,
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2009, 05:17:07 PM47:24 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?
I actually think that it is great that you have stopped arguing and instead have been posting those very touching passages. At least this is far more useful and I encourage everyone to ponder on those passages regardless of who posted them. Only those with pure hearts not locked by traditions and preconceptions can understand the great reading. This is a very relevant passage that applies directly to this thread and the issue of timing. If one starts from a pure heart, a clean sheet, without preconceptions then one cannot in a million years reach the sectarian calendar based on understanding the great reading. I admit that I am guilty of trying to find out the timing without preconceptions and based purely on earnestly seeking to understand the great reading. If I say what I am saying here on this thread in the middle of Mecca, I would probably be arrested and put to trial (this is if I don't get stoned to death by an angry "pious" mob first). Since you are the only lawyer I know on this thread, what would you say in my defense? I really would like to know. Would you even take my case or would you join the mob?
I wish you peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 05:40:01 PM
Peace Farida
Since you are the only lawyer I know on this thread, what would you say in my defense? I really would like to know. Would you even take my case or would you join the mob?
I wish you peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Sorry you will never be able to hire me I am way beyond your reach.
I wish you luck. :P
farida
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 12:08:08 PM
So you admit that the solstice full-moon illusion is due to the full-moon taking a low path accross the horizon. Now use the following website and tell everyone the path that the full-moon took each month and tell us which TWO full-moons took the lowest path:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Peace,
Ayman this fact is known to all...Now, if we follow your theory and Fast During the Solstice Moon, do we have to disobey our Lord and Count 13 Moon Per Year in order to Fast every year in the Solstice Moon Period?
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 12:08:08 PM
Great, invent an imaginery meaning for "ma'adoodat"/few (3-10) to match your preconception. As far as I remember, the dictionary didn't say that it is "relative" and that 100 million which is relatively small compared to a Billion can mean "few". What you are saying is nonsense in any language, not just Arabic. If you didn't have your preconception from the sectarian nonsense then you wouldn't be stuck and forced to invent a new illogical meaning.
Ayman, as we have told you before, Madoodat Means Counted...It Does Not Mean 3-10 nor 30 nor 100...it does not mean few, as well...Simply, COUNTED.
Peace
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 12:08:08 PM
Here is the title of the entire article that you refer to:
Why the Moon Looks Big at the Horizon
and Smaller When Higher Up
So you admit that the solstice full-moon illusion is due to the full-moon taking a low path accross the horizon. Now use the following website and tell everyone the path that the full-moon took each month and tell us which TWO full-moons took the lowest path:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
The answer is that the TWO full-moons that took the LOWEST path are the full-moons BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. This fact is so indisputable that I don't even need to check the data through the link about. However, since you are doubting this then post the data and show me wrong.
You did not even read the article and all the different theories;
here is the one from last year BIG ILLUSION
before the solstice again....
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
QuoteThere are other explanations, too.
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/
QuoteThe scientific challenge has been to explain why those equal angular sizes look unequal.
This article is long for three reasons.
1. It advances the relatively new idea (1965, 1970, 1985, 1986) that, for most people, the moon illusion begins as an angular size illusion which has several possible outcomes.
2. It reviews in detail the very few explanations of the illusion that vision scientists are paying the most attention to (and still researching). These theories are not simple.
3. It reviews in detail the latest theory (1985, 1986, 1989) that the moon illusion is an example of the less familiar, but ubiquitous, "size" illusion known as oculomotor micropsia/macropsia. Explanations for oculomotor micropsia then are reviewed.
For the moment, it seems to be the most satisfactory explanation.
Introduction and Summary. (Loading these links may take several seconds)
Section I. New Description of the Moon Illusion
Section II. Conventional Versus New Descriptions
Section III. Explaining the Moon Illusion
Section IV. Explaining Oculomotor Micropsia
Bibliography and McCready VITA
Appendix A. The (New) Theory
Appendix B. Analysis of the Murray, Boyaci & Kersten (2006) Experiment
The initial version of this article was placed on this web site in May, 1999 .
Major revisions were made in December 2002.
This entire article was revised on November 10, 2004.
Then, extremely important research on visual angle illusions was published in March 2006 in Nature Neuroscience. The article is, ?The representation of perceived angular size in human primary visual cortex,? by Murray, S. O., Boyaci, H., & Kersten, D. (2006).
It fully supports the approach advocated here, so it is reviewed in the "Technical Note added June 7, 2006., in the Introduction and Summary Section,
It is analyzed in detail in Appendix B (posted February 5, 2007).
FACT: THERE WAS NO FULL MOON ILLUSION
AFTER THE SOLSTICE ON
JULY 18, 2008!FACT: You did NOT witness a full moon illusion after sunset last year on JULY 18, 2008!
FACT: No one saw a full moon illusion (they called it a regular full moon) which was NOT even full after sunset!
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 08:57:06 AM
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2008&n=263
Data for July 18, 2008 http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
00:00 27.0 177.4 1.00
00:10 27.0 179.9 1.00
00:20 27.0 182.4 1.00
00:30 26.9 184.9 1.00
00:40 26.7 187.4 1.00
00:50 26.5 189.9 1.00
01:00 26.1 192.4 1.00
01:10 25.7 194.8 1.00
01:20 25.2 197.2 1.00
01:30 24.6 199.6 1.00
01:40 24.0 202.0 1.00
01:50 23.3 204.3 1.00
02:00 22.5 206.5 1.00
02:10 21.6 208.8 1.00
02:20 20.7 211.0 1.00
02:30 19.7 213.1 1.00
02:40 18.7 215.2 1.00
02:50 17.6 217.2 1.00
03:00 16.4 219.3 1.00
03:10 15.2 221.2 1.00
03:20 14.0 223.1 1.00
03:30 12.7 225.0 1.00
03:40 11.4 226.8 1.00
03:50 10.0 228.6 1.00
04:00 8.6 230.4 1.00 FULL MOON July 18TH @3:59 AM
04:10 7.2 232.1 1.00
04:20 5.7 233.8 1.00
04:30 4.2 235.4 1.00
04:40 2.8 237.0 1.00
04:50 1.3 238.6 1.00
05:00 -0.1 240.2 1.00
05:10 -2.3 241.7 1.00
05:20 -4.0 243.2 1.00
05:30 -5.6 244.7 1.00
05:40 -7.3 246.1 1.00
05:50 -9.0 247.6 1.00
06:00 -10.8 249.0 1.00
19:00 -11.2 108.0 1.00
19:10 -9.4 109.4 1.00
19:20 -7.6 110.8 1.00
19:30 -5.9 112.3 1.00
19:40 -4.1 113.7 1.00
19:50 -2.4 115.2 1.00
20:00 -0.1 116.7 0.99
20:10 1.4 118.2 0.99 NOT FULL MOON AFTER SUNSET!
20:20 2.9 119.7 0.99
20:30 4.5 121.3 0.99
20:40 6.1 122.9 0.99
20:50 7.7 124.5 0.99
21:00 9.2 126.2 0.99
21:10 10.7 127.9 0.99
21:20 12.2 129.7 0.99
21:30 13.7 131.5 0.99
21:40 15.1 133.3 0.99
21:50 16.4 135.2 0.99
22:00 17.8 137.2 0.99
22:10 19.1 139.2 0.99
22:20 20.3 141.2 0.99
22:30 21.5 143.3 0.99
22:40 22.6 145.5 0.99
22:50 23.7 147.7 0.99
23:00 24.7 149.9 0.99
23:10 25.6 152.2 0.99
23:20 26.5 154.6 0.99
23:30 27.3 157.0 0.99
23:40 28.0 159.5 0.99
23:50 28.7 162.0 0.99
FACT: THE ONLY FULL MOON ILLUSION EVERYONE SAW LAST YEAR WAS
BEFORE THE SOLSTICE!
Image taken: Jun. 18, 2008 Location:Weilimdorf, near Stuttgart, Germany(http://spaceweather.com/submissions/pics/s/Stefan-Seip-spaceweather080618a_1213833046.jpg)
Image taken: June 18, 2008 Location: Manchester, Maryland.(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)
Image taken: June 18, 2008 Location: Greece.(http://spaceweather.com/swpod2008/19jun08/Elias-Chasiotis1_strip2.jpg)
Image taken: Jun. 18, 2008 Location: Terre Haute, Indiana(http://spaceweather.com/submissions/pics/r/Robin-Smith-9-007_1213868025_med.jpg)
(http://spaceweather.com/submissions/pics/r/Robin-Smith-9-010_1213868025_med.jpg)
FACT: YOU ARE FASTING ON THE WRONG HOT MOON!
FACT: YOU HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG AND STILL POST ABOUT ILLUSIONS!
Now, you want to admit that full moon illusion has ZERO to do with this and move on to the next question or do you want to say that you or anyone else saw a full moon illusion last year July 18 after the solstice?
Peace belH
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 05:51:02 PM
Peace,
Ayman this fact is known to all...Now, if we follow your theory and Fast During the Solstice Moon, do we have to disobey our Lord and Count 13 Moon Per Year in order to Fast every year in the Solstice Moon Period?
this one is easy, let the cheerleader captain answer : No we count 12 full moons/not months between 2 summer solstices. And eventually skip counting the 13th full moon/not months to keep in sync with seasons.
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 05:51:02 PM
Ayman, as we have told you before, Madoodat Means Counted...It Does Not Mean 3-10 nor 30 nor 100...it does not mean few, as well...Simply, COUNTED.
i don't agree , look for any arabic text with the word "ma3doodaat" in it. then ask any arabic speaker to tell you how many does "ma3doodat" in that context means.
if i tell you that your days are COUNTED/ma3doodat, it means that there's something you should worry about.
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 05:51:02 PMAyman this fact is known to all...Now, if we follow your theory and Fast During the Solstice Moon, do we have to disobey our Lord and Count 13 Moon Per Year in order to Fast every year in the Solstice Moon Period?
Who said that I am counting 13? I am only counting 12 and skipping the 13th. Do you think that it is a coincidence that when I do this as per 9:36 the lunar cycle gets automatically adjusted with the solar cycle, and remains in sync even 1 Million years from now?
It is not my problem that you don't know what "count" means. Please tell everyone the difference between "count" (3idat) and number ("3adad") and how one can count.
Moreover, as I explained to Progressive1993, you are now counting month # 17169 and haven?t stopped the counting at 12. If you took month 2 as month 1 then the present sectarian Ramadhan would have been month 17168 and you would be fasting next month. So as I said, because you haven?t stopped counting with 12 as ordered in 9:36 and instead kept counting, your present day month #17169 is tied to your month 1 and can never be independent from it. So you have now been violating 9:36 for the past 17157 lunar months. This is indisputable.
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 05:51:02 PMAyman, as we have told you before, Madoodat Means Counted...It Does Not Mean 3-10 nor 30 nor 100...it does not mean few, as well...Simply, COUNTED.
First of all what you are saying is completely baseless, not only according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, but also as anyone who knows Arabic can tell you. For example, if you say to your wife: "I am traveling ayyam ma3doodat", she will never think that you mean to tell her that you will be gone for 1000 days (also counted) or 100 days or even 30 days. You and I and everyone who has even a basic understanding of Arabic knows this fact. So as an Arabic speaker you shouldn't be so desperate to justify your preconceptions that you forget how you speak at home.
Second, this doesn't resolve the redundancy. Why supposedly say "counted days" if it is known that "shahr" is a lunar cycle or 29-30 days? The god doesn't say useless and redundant things that are unnecessary.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: quickduck on September 07, 2009, 06:02:56 PM
Peace belH
this one is easy, let the cheerleader captain answer : No we count 12 full moons/not months between 2 summer solstices. And eventually skip counting the 13th full moon/not months to keep in sync with seasons.
Who Gave you the authority to Subtract a MOON...If Ayman is your LORD, who gave you the authority to do so, will... He is not Mine...My Lord is Allah who authenticated the Guidance in the Quran...He did not gave me the authority to Subtract a Moon.
Quote from: quickduck on September 07, 2009, 06:02:56 PM
i don't agree , look for any arabic text with the word "ma3doodaat" in it. then ask any arabic speaker to tell you how many does "ma3doodat" in that context means.
if i tell you that your days are COUNTED/ma3doodat, it means that there's something you should worry about.
I'm an Arabic Speaker...
The Root word for Ma3doodat is 3ad, which mean COUNT.
If someone tell me that my days are Madoodat, then I will tell him "You are full of it...Only God knows the years Count of anybody's life.
By the way, if you will call your self a Cheerleader Captain, please you need to change your Gender Symbol.
Peace
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 06:02:07 PMYou did not even read the article and all the different theories;
here is the one from last year BIG ILLUSION before the solstice again....
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/
FACT: THERE WAS NO FULL MOON ILLUSION AFTER THE SOLSTICE ON JULY 18, 2008!
FACT: You did NOT witness a full moon illusion after sunset last year on JULY 18, 2008!
FACT: No one saw a full moon illusion (they called it a regular full moon) which was NOT even full after sunset!
FACT: THE ONLY FULL MOON ILLUSION EVERYONE SAW LAST YEAR WAS BEFORE THE SOLSTICE!
FACT: YOU ARE FASTING ON THE WRONG HOT MOON!
FACT: YOU HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG AND STILL POST ABOUT ILLUSIONS!
Now, you want to admit that full moon illusion has ZERO to do with this and move on to the next question or do you want to say that you or anyone else saw a full moon illusion last year July 18 after the solstice?
Instead of all your babbling just answer those two simple YES or NO question:
The TWO full-moons that take the LOWEST path accross the horizon are the full-moons BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. YES or NO?
The temperature is hotter at the time of the full-moon AFTER the summer solstice than the one BEFORE it. YES or NO?Remember that "scorching" has two connotations, hot and red. If you are not smart enough to answer the above two simple questions then you are in no position to provide any valid opinion on anything.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 06:22:35 PM
Peace Eid,
Instead of all your babbling just answer those two simple YES or NO question:
The TWO full-moons that take the LOWEST path accross the horizon are the full-moons BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. YES or NO?
The temperature is hotter at the time of the full-moon AFTER the summer solstice than the one BEFORE it. YES or NO?
Remember that "scorching" has two connotations, hot and red. If you are not smart enough to answer the above two simple questions then you are in no position to provide any valid opinion on anything.
Peace,
Ayman
What all these have to do with Fasting Ramadan Month?
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 06:30:20 PMWhat all these have to do with Fasting Ramadan Month?
I am sorry to hear that you have been sleeping through the past 107 pages.
From PRL:
= Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon,
full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning,
heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda -
scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 07:02:07 PM
Peace Belal,
I am sorry to hear that you have been sleeping through the past 107 pages.
From PRL:
= Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
As I told you Before, ALLAH has given the Full Moon Different Name than Shaher (YOUR Invention), please see below:
6:77So when he saw the moon Full, he said: �This is my Lord.� But when it disappeared he said: �If my Lord does not guide me, then I will be among the wicked people!�
6:77 فلما رءا القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي فلما أفل قال لئن لم يهدني ربي لأكونن من القوم الضالين
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 06:30:20 PM
What all these have to do with Fasting Ramadan Month?
Ramadan means to burn. For the sins of those who fast and beg Allah for forgiveness in this month burn and perish.
;) http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_Fifth_Fascicle/Bliss-5-Chapter-2.htm :D
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 07:10:59 PMAs I told you Before, ALLAH has given the Full Moon Different Name than Shaher (YOUR Invention), please see below:
As I told you before, you have imagined a different name for full moon. I hope that you will not worship your imagination and call it ALLAH.
On the other hand, I didn't invent anything since the meaning of "shahr" as "full-moon" is given by Classical Arabic dictionaries, whether you like it or not رغم أنفك.
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 07:10:59 PM6:77So when he saw the moon Full, he said: �This is my Lord.� But when it disappeared he said: �If my Lord does not guide me, then I will be among the wicked people!�
6:77 فلما رءا القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي فلما أفل قال لئن لم يهدني ربي لأكونن من القوم الضالين
Now let's see who is inventing nonsense:
006.077
YUSUFALI: When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."
PICKTHAL: And when he saw the moon uprising, he exclaimed: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless my Lord guide me, I surely shall become one of the folk who are astray.
SHAKIR: Then when he saw the moon rising, he said: Is this my Lord? So when it set, he said: If my Lord had not guided me I should certainly be of the erring people.
KHALIFA: When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers." From PRL:
ب ز غ = Ba-Zay-Ghayn =
rise or come forth (normally applied to the sun/moon), flow/spread.
bazagha vb. (1) pcple. act. 6:77, 6:78
6:77 talks about "When he saw the moon rising...". So ?qamar? means moon and not full-moon, unless you want to propose some nonsense that only the full-moon rises. Same goes for other passages that talk, for example, about the ?qamar? (moon) going in orbit such as 21:33. Unless you want to apply your nonsense resulting in that only the full-moon goes in an orbit while the other phases don?t. So ?qamar? cannot logically mean ?full-moon? and it simply means ?moon?. On the other hand, ?full-moon? is ?shahr?.
Peace,
Ayman
I have a question for those who uphold that shahr = month, in this context.
2:185 says that the quran was sent down in this month (sic)
In truth, wasn't the quran sent down in stages? 25:32 and 17:106
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 07:39:04 PM
6:77 talks about "When he saw the moon rising...". So ?qamar? means moon and not full-moon, unless you want to propose some nonsense that only the full-moon rises. Same goes for other passages that talk, for example, about the ?qamar? (moon) going in orbit such as 21:33. Unless you want to apply your nonsense resulting in that only the full-moon goes in an orbit while the other phases don?t. So ?qamar? cannot logically mean ?full-moon? and it simply means ?moon?. On the other hand, ?full-moon? is ?shahr?.
This is the Arabic Tongue:
The Word Qamar = FULL MOON
The Word Helal= Crescent--Less than Full Moon
Now...If Good calls the Full Moon Shaher then He would have said "When He Saw the Shaher (6-77)
To any one who has an arabic tongue:
What is the meaning of this word:
سائل
Does it have one meaning or many different meanings--as the word Shaher that has many different meanings of which non is "MOON"
Peace TheJoker,
Quote from: TheJoker on September 07, 2009, 07:41:51 PMI have a question for those who uphold that shahr = month, in this context.
2:185 says that the quran was sent down in this month (sic)
In truth, wasn't the quran sent down in stages? 25:32 and 17:106
There are two steps for revelation:
1. Inzal/decending by the spirit which happened in one night - the night of measure where the moon start being measured in decending stages until it becomes a crescent (36:39). This is also the night of the scorching full-moon.
2. Tanzil/bringing it down to the heart of the prophet which as you said happened over a long period.
"Inzal" is one night and not 29-30 days. "Tanzil" is over a long period and not specifically 29-30 days. So the 29-30 days lunar month is completely irrelevant as far as this issue.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
Do not listen to me or to ayman and do it yourself.
Please Copy the following word:
شهر
Then Paste in the following Arabic English Dictionary to know the meaning:
http://www.babylon.com/define/98/English-Arabic-Dictionary.html
By the way, the arabic word you copied is the famous word "Shahar"
Peace all
To any one who has an arabic tongue. What is the meaning of this sentence:
الصاروخ إنطلق إلي القمر
1. The rocket is going to the full-moon :)
2. The rocket is going to the moon
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 08:34:36 PM
Peace TheJoker,
There are two steps for revelation:
1. Inzal/decending by the spirit which happened in one night - the night of measure where the moon start being measured in decending stages until it becomes a crescent (36:39). This is also the night of the scorching full-moon.
2. Tanzil/bringing it down to the heart of the prophet which as you said happened over a long period.
"Inzal" is one night and not 29-30 days. "Tanzil" is over a long period and not specifically 29-30 days. So the 29-30 days lunar month is completely irrelevant as far as this issue.
Peace,
Ayman
Brilliant!!!!!!!! متألّق . مشرق . باسم . لامع . ألمعيّ . متّقد الذكاء . رائع
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 08:44:35 PM
To any one who has an arabic tongue. What is the meaning of this sentence:
الصاروخ إنطلق إلي القمر
1. The rocket is going to the full-moon :)
2. The rocket is going to the moon
Peace,
Ayman
:rotfl:
Do not forget that the verb "Ra'aa" (Saw) was before the word Qamar in verse (6-77).
What He (Abraham) SAW was a Stage (Phase) of the Moon, which could be FULL or Crescent.
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 08:50:46 PMDo not forget that the verb "Ra'aa" (Saw) was before the word Qamar in verse (6-77).
Are you trying to say that "he saw the moon" and not "the moon saw him". OK I got you now. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
Please copy and paste the following words (one at a time) in the link I provided before (http://www.babylon.com/define/98/English-Arabic-Dictionary.html) to know the meaning yourself:
قمر هلال
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 08:55:36 PM
Peace Belal,
Are you trying to say that "he saw the moon" and not "the moon saw him". OK I got you now. :)
Peace,
Ayman
:rotfl:
Brilliant!!!!!!!! متألّق . مشرق . باسم . لامع . ألمعيّ . متّقد الذكاء . رائع
:)
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 06:22:35 PM
babbling
We were
discussing THE FULL MOON ILLUSION that you are too proud to admit is NOT applicable.
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2008&n=263
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Data for June 18, 2008 FULL MOON 1:31 PM
19:50 -2.9 124.1 1.00
20:00 -1.3 125.6 1.00
20:10 0.7 127.1 1.00
HUGE FULL MOON ILLUSION AFTER SUNSET!20:20 2.0 128.6 1.00
Summer Solstice June 21, 2008
Data for July 17, 2008 19:20 -1.7 120.7 1.00
19:30 0.4 122.2 1.00 was this the full moon illusion?
19:40 1.8 123.7 1.00
Data for July 18, 2008 Full Moon 3:59 AM Ayman's HOT MOON
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:50 -2.4 115.2 1.00
20:00 -0.1 116.7 0.99
20:10 1.4 118.2 0.99 not full moon after sunset; was this the illusion?
20:20 2.9 119.7 0.99
Answer the TWO simple YES or NO questions that I asked you.
1. Does THE FULL MOON
ILLUSION have anything to do with it?
2. Did you see THE FULL MOON
ILLUSION last year after the solstice?
Peace TheJoker,
Quote from: TheJoker on September 07, 2009, 07:41:51 PM
I have a question for those who uphold that shahr = month, in this context.
2:185 says that the quran was sent down in this month (sic)
In truth, wasn't the quran sent down in stages? 25:32 and 17:106
I read it as descended/began in a night in the month of Ramadan (first stage); the rest like this surah came later obviously...
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
80:1 عبس وتولى
80:2 أن جاءه الأعمى
80:3 وما يدريك لعله يزكى
80:4 أو يذكر فتنفعه الذكرى
80:5 أما من استغنى
80:6 فأنت له تصدى
80:7 وما عليك ألا يزكى
80:8 وأما من جاءك يسعى
80:9 وهو يخشى
80:10 فأنت عنه تلهى
80:11 كلا إنها تذكرة
80:12 فمن شاء ذكره
(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, (1) Because there came to him the blind man (2) And how can you know that he might become pure? (3) Or that he might receive admonition, and that the admonition might profit him? (4) As for him who thinks himself self-sufficient, (5) To him you attend; (6) What does it matter to you if he will not become pure (from disbelief, you are only a Messenger, your duty is to convey the Message of All?h) (7) But as to him who came to you running (8) And is afraid (of All?h and His Punishment), (9) Of him you are neglectful and divert your attention to another, (10) Nay, indeed it (this Qur'?n) is an admonition, (11) So whoever wills, let him pay attention to it. (12)
All those who make the intent (witness) to do so should fast the month including the blind!
There is nothing more clearer than the above.
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
:rotfl:
Brilliant!!!!!!!! متألّق . مشرق . باسم . لامع . ألمعيّ . متّقد الذكاء . رائع
:)
Dear Belal .
No matter how much powerful arguement you bring it is going to be useless because you can debate with anyone who has some knowledge but that one who is a heap of ignorance.
خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ [البقرة/7]Regards
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 09:55:43 PM
Peace TheJoker,
I read it as descended/began in a night in the month of Ramadan (first stage); the rest like this surah came later obviously...
Peace all,
You still didn't get it. OK ? Here is it in slow mo..
1- there are TWO forms of descending/revealing the quran, i mean in the quran : ANZALA, and NAZZALA. Unfortunately, all the translations do't make any difference between the TWO, and treat them as "descending/descendu/bajado...etc.."
2- this is for arabic speakers : (you, bilal)
NAZZALA....YUNAZZILO...TANZEELAN
ANZALA...YUNZILO....INZAALAN
Can you please tell me the difference between both ?
Witing for the answer
salam:
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 06:18:14 PM
By the way, if you will call your self a Cheerleader Captain, please you need to change your Gender Symbol.
the cheerleader captain is not an idea of mine, it's guest's and nun's ;D
Quote from: Q_student on September 08, 2009, 12:48:50 AM
Dear Belal .
No matter how much powerful arguement you bring it is going to be useless because you can debate with anyone who has some knowledge but that one who is a heap of ignorance.
خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ [البقرة/7]
Regards
Or hell bent on distorting the truth, they are on pay roll after all they make their living out of it. :yes
As for us this is what counts;
Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. God bless all those who strive against wrong doers and uphold the system established by the last prophet Mohammad pbuh.
Salaam and happy Ramadan :sun:
farida
Quote from: quickduck on September 08, 2009, 01:06:58 AM
Peace all,
You still didn't get it. OK ? Here is it in slow mo..
1- there are TWO forms of descending/revealing the quran, i mean in the quran : ANZALA, and NAZZALA. Unfortunately, all the translations do't make any difference between the TWO, and treat them as "descending/descendu/bajado...etc.."
2- this is for arabic speakers : (you, bilal)
NAZZALA....YUNAZZILO...TANZEELAN
ANZALA.......YUNZILO.......INZAALAN
Can you please tell me the difference between both ?
Waiting for the answer
salam:
the cheerleader captain is not an idea of mine, it's guest's and nun's ;D
Quote from: quickduck on September 08, 2009, 01:13:45 AM
the cheerleader captain is not an idea of mine, it's guest's and nun's
No this was Ayman's sexist title for me. You want to bet on it? In that case I will give you the reply number? :jedi:
Salaaaam
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2009, 01:12:23 AM
Or hell bent on distorting the truth, they are on pay roll after all they make their living out of it. :yes
farida
وَلَا تَشْتَرُوا بِآَيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا وَإِيَّايَ فَاتَّقُونِ [البقرة/41] :rotfl: :rotfl:
Regards
"Maadood" is a common word which we use in urdu every day, and there is absolutely no doubt about it that it means , "A very limited count"
Isn't it Farida?
Moreover , Rasulhamza was right in pointing out ,when you were trying to confuse ashraa, and "Shahar Ramadhan"
Ashraa, means arabic number 10. and you can call 1 to 10th day of a month as ashraa ae awaal, (first 10 days),11th to 20th as ashraa ul sani, (2nd ten day period) and 21st to 30th as akhari ashraa, ( last ten days), It has got nothing to do with Shahar, or shahar Ramadhan.
I am amazed , that with such ignorance , you are so arrogant?
knowing very well what "Maadood "means, you have chosen to keep quite like a hypocrite?
When some one addresses you with respect as "A SISTER" you bark at him :o . How do you want to be addressed...?
Let me assure you "Ramadhan as a month" is "deep" fried with you being its lawyer, and God save your clients in the real world.
siki
Quote from: belH on September 07, 2009, 05:51:02 PM
Ayman, as we have told you before, Madoodat Means Counted...It Does Not Mean 3-10 nor 30 nor 100...it does not mean few, as well...Simply, COUNTED.
Peace
Although "Babylon" is not a dictioary to search for classical meanings, but the result search for "أياما معدودات " is "A few days", because it's still the used meaning. Try it for yourself on tis link:
http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English/
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2009, 04:39:46 AM
Although "Babylon" is not a dictioary to search for classical meanings, but the result search for "أياما معدودات " is "A few days", because it's still the used meaning. Try it for yourself on tis link:
http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English/
30 days are few as compared to 365! thanks
Peace
Sorry to barge in but a few in proper english means a small number less than 10, so some dudes in this thread need to revise their english
as well as their arabic... ;)
now in improper english, if you want to extend a few you can say "quite a few", and that will stretch it no to more than 13/14...
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 08, 2009, 04:43:23 AM
30 days are few as compared to 365! thanks
It says "a few" not "few". Now search in an English Arabic dictionary 8)
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on November 20, 2004, 10:56:18 AM
Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal. In fact, not only will the full-moon seem bigger than normal, but the low-hanging full moon takes on an orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere.
First you say the summer solstice full moon follows the lower path across the sky. This is your so called Ramadan theory.
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 12:08:08 PM
The answer is that the TWO full-moons that took the LOWEST path are the full-moons BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. This fact is so indisputable that I don't even need to check the data through the link about. However, since you are doubting this then post the data and show me wrong.
Then you say the TWO full moons that took the lowest path are BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. You just contradicted yourself. Instead of admitting the mistake you took pride in modifying your lousy theory. This is crazy, unrighteous, and hypocritical.
Now as for ?This fact is so indisputable that I don't even need to check the data through the link about.? I will give you a challenge to determine how certain you are about the stated position.
Here is the challenge: DO YOU AGREE TO WITHRAW YOUR ARTICLE AND APOLOGIZE TO US IF I PROVE YOU WRONG? Just give me the word and I will provide the evidence.
You mean apologize not APOLIZES surely the latter does not make sense?
Quote from: siki on September 08, 2009, 02:26:43 AM
"Maadood" is a common word which we use in urdu every day, and there is absolutely no doubt about it that it means , "A very limited count"
siki
Salaaam Siki,
As Rasulhamza pointed out
30 days are few as compared to 365! And that's a human counting not God. Just imagine how long is God's فَلْيَمْدُدْ :hmm
Say: "Whoever is in misguidance, then the Almighty will lead them on." Until they see what they have been promised, either the retribution or the Hour. Then they will know who is in a worst place and weaker in power.
QuoteIsn't it Farida?
Isn't it Siknder?
QuoteMoreover , Rasulhamza was right in pointing out ,when you were trying to confuse ashraa, and "Shahar Ramadhan"
I hope you don?t pick and chose his replies or :! else you can always ask your sister Samia to come up with the interpretation to your choice.
QuoteAshraa, means arabic number 10. and you can call 1 to 10th day of a month as ashraa ae awaal, (first 10 days),11th to 20th as ashraa ul sani, (2nd ten day period) and 21st to 30th as akhari ashraa, ( last ten days),
Thank you for finally addressing Ashraa in Urdu/Arabic.
QuoteIt has got nothing to do with Shahar, or shahar Ramadhan
Nothing to do with Shahar, :o You see no obvious common root ???? :brickwall:
Whatttt . ::).. that Ramadhan has nothing to with Ashraa, even if it is clearly in relation to the count of a lunar month/Shahar. :yeah:
QuoteI am amazed , that with such ignorance , you are so arrogant?
After all I am from the same country as yours :'( but unlike you ;D I know the difference between being cocky and fascist or Nazi. :yes
Quoteknowing very well what "Maadood "means, you have chosen to keep quite like a hypocrite?
Me keeping quite :nope: you must be joking :laugh:
QuoteWhen some one addresses you with respect as "A SISTER" you bark at him :o . How do you want to be addressed...?
Simply farida which means "unique" :yes
QuoteLet me assure you "Ramadhan as a month" is "deep" fried with you being its lawyer, and God save your clients in the real world.
Only yesterday your friend Dr Ayman, impressed with my legal skills on this forum asked me to defend him against resourceful Saudi?s.
That says a lot for a female lawyer?s deep frying skills. :jedi:
:peace:
Quote from: theNabster on September 08, 2009, 07:34:27 AM
You mean apologize not APOLIZES surely the latter does not make sense?
Peace, Thanks!
Peace
Ego trips aside,
consider this:
29:2 Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested.
29:3 And We indeed tested those who were before them. And All?h will certainly make (it) known (the truth
of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars.
So I believe one of the issues with those who love calling themselves "Muslims" today, is that they are not only
being severely tested, but those of them who say we believe are not living up to the test and inquiring why they
are failing it, and so helping their unfortunate so-called "brethren and followers" and themselves from a very dangerous fate.
A proposed solution?
1. Accept the test.
2. Pass it (start by humbling the ego is a good start).
3. Get Allah's support and help.
No way around it.
The Scholars are brainwashed, they are calling to damnation, it is a mighty test indeed.
And if you want a little sign, here is one from yesterday:
'Lebanon's Madoff' bankrupted after bouncing $200,000 cheque to Hizbollah
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/lebanons-madoff-bankrupted-after-bouncing-200000-cheque-to-hizbollah-1783407.html
2:26 Verily, All?h is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is
bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth
from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did All?h intend by this parable?"
By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are
Al-F?siq?n (the rebellious, disobedient to All?h).
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 05:40:01 PM
Only those with pure hearts not locked by traditions and preconceptions can understand the great reading.
Talk is cheap. Hypocrites are people who say one way and do another. You are seeing the Qur?an via a polluted dictionary. Your understanding is heavily biased by the dictionary meaning. Therefore, you are locked by your traditions and preconceptions. You just don?t want to admit it.
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 05:40:01 PM
If one starts from a pure heart, a clean sheet, without preconceptions then one cannot in a million years reach the sectarian calendar based on understanding the great reading.
You satisfy none of these criteria. Your heart is impure and your sheet is full of satanic dictionary words. Therefore, your understanding of Qur?an is off-target and misleading.
Quote from: ayman on September 07, 2009, 05:40:01 PM
I admit that I am guilty of trying to find out the timing without preconceptions and based purely on earnestly seeking to understand the great reading.
A pure lie.
Peace
Brain washing since Imam Shafie's famous fatwa to close the doors of Ijtihad, and decide that everything had to pass through Sunna and Hadith, that is about 1300 years.
It will take a mighty push from Allah to shake the Sectarians to let go of all these time lengthy preconceptions.
This is why Allah always says to His Prophets "khudhu alkitabba biquwata" "Enforce the Book with Force/Strength", in our case
the Quran!
Advice to Bro Ayman, you do not have to engage with slanderers by the way...
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 08, 2009, 11:00:40 AM
It will take a mighty push from Allah to shake the Sectarians to let go of all these time lengthy preconceptions.
The God does no such thing. There is no compulsion in religion. I guess we don't think alike. You should follow the Qur'an.
Quote from: theNabster on September 08, 2009, 11:00:40 AM
Advice to Bro Ayman, you do not have to engage with slanderers by the way...
Ayman is a slanderer, read Ayman reply to me (earlier post). I speak the truth and truth hurts many misguided people.
Quote from: theNabster on September 08, 2009, 11:00:40 AM
Peace
Brain washing since Imam Shafie's famous fatwa to close the doors of Ijtihad, and decide that everything had to pass through Sunna and Hadith, that is about 1300 years.
\
Peace Brother
Where is provision of Ijtihaad in the Quran ?
Regards
Peace,
in the whole of the Quran, Allah invites Believers, Unbelievers, Humans, Jinns to think and ponder about His creation, consider the fate of past Nations, all the examples, parables, challenges, even daring to produce the like of the Quran, I cannot even begin to list all the invitations to improves one's lot, to travel on the earth, to meet other people, to be productive, to understand better Allah's creation and his word (..."and let there be among you a few who will stay behind and improve their knowledge in the Deen" instead of all going into battle, and that is while the Prophet was among them!!!)... and what have you,
if this is not Ijtihad I wonder what is...
Remove those blinkers and start seeing the Truth if you ever believed!!!
I owe it to my Ancestor to stop this lie propagated in his name...
Salaam to mann yatoob
Quotethe fate of past Nations
Interesting. Not even a single fate has been discovered till now.
Though the Quran says that the town of Lot is apparent to the prophet and his followers from its remains.
Funny how the Sunni fellas don't even recognize this and are not interested! What a bunch of losers!
Quote from: Rami on September 08, 2009, 12:43:34 PM
Interesting. Not even a single fate has been discovered till now.
Though the Quran says that the town of Lot is apparent to the prophet and his followers from its remains.
Funny how the Sunni fellas don't even recognize this and are not interested! What a bunch of losers!
Hey Rami you are jumping the queue; step one is to discredit the companions of the prophet, then Mohammad and finally the Qur'an.
:police:
o dear, paranoia, no good...
Peace
if one says that Mohamed did not have companions who helped him, they are clearly wrong, as the Quran refers to them, and the only one mentioned by name is Zaid ibn Thabet.
I personally believe that the closest companions i.e. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, and Hamza's stories are real, and that there is, like the Prophet's time line a time shift in their genealogy of 20 years or more forward (i.e. their real dates of birth are more than 20 years earlier).
We need good forensic evidence to prove this, but of course in the state of affairs we are in, the Saudis will never allow it, as they are planning to destroy evidence, if they haven't already done so...
To go back to the topic of this thread, the Quran can and must be the criterion because Allah says so, so it has nothing to do with anything else.
Mohamed is but a human, and he did die, he could have died in one of the battles with the believers, and the Message would still have held (look for the ayat).
Trying to immortalise him with his hadiths and his way of life is like deifying him, it is a grave sin.
As Allah said do not distinguish between any of the Prophets, why him, why not Yssah or Moussah or Daoud, Yussef, we do have hadiths about them in the Bible...
Ayman has got a big ego too, but he has got it right about ramadan...
(I disagree with him on hajj as for me it is to be held in the 1st temple (of the rock) in Jerusalem, I disagree with him on jinns as they are beings and not fantasies as he claims, and Angels are beings too) but I agree with the fact that Mecca is a pagan place of abomination and that the rituals are pagan...
Peace
Nabster
Quote from: theNabster on September 08, 2009, 08:33:51 AM
Peace
Ego trips aside,
consider this:
Reply #1510 on: September 06, 2009, 01:23:55 AM pg 101
......But he does take risks, and is not paid for what he does. With many of us acting out of fear of the unknown just to defend our status quo, ..... If your grave accusations are correct, you will still need to provide proof, i.e. e.g. that he is on the pay roll of some
dark agencies.
Salaam brother Nabil & everyone
I cannot provide a proof that Dr Ayman is working for money on this forum as I would need to access his account details and obviously I can?t do that. However, using Ayman?s favourate term, I can ?empirically verify? that someone is financially compensating Dr Ayman for devoting all his working time, writing in this forum.
From my last years experience on this topic I learned that prolific posting on this forum was as time consuming as a full time job. This year I planned it in such a way that I had my time off work incorporated into the month of Ramadan when I took on this ?jihad?.
Since I came back on this forum from August 16, 2009, and till today, despite not doing my regular work, I still have neglected my family who are quite irritated to see me absorbed in confronting the A-team. Ayman, as compared to me, has been far more prolific than I and has written many more replies to all and sundry, and on more than one topic.
Given the need to support his family, which we know he has, and his high flying lifestyle, beside his full time dedication to this forum, conducting a veritable Guerilla Blog-fare, where can he possibly find the time to go out and earn a living? Unless he is from among the Jinn it simply is not feasible (A lecture here or there will not provide a living).
The repeated reminder from Team Ayman of looming bankruptcy reflects their own fear of what must come if they lose out; I think that Farida's "dark agency" accusations are probably the funniest and most bankrupt argument (= bankrupting Ayman) September 06, 2009, 08:33:00 PM
He has consistently been jumping from one subject to another, like a squirrel in heat, and when defeated he bawls: If you are truthful then prove from your investigation of the great reading that Ramadan is the 9th month of a lunar calendar.And so it goes on and on, in circles, like the ripples in a lake where the fish are jumping.
He challenged us several time about the uses of the crescent moons, as per 2:189, to time the "hajj". I guarantee that you will NEVER be able to answer. Which is off list since I shamed him with my answer. He is in denial of anything that refers to AH (after Hijri)...
Then (out of frustration) he stoops to name calling; eg The Sunnis is as lost as you. Reply #1224 on: August 27, 2009,
And seeing he has lost his argument he turns to projection, claiming we (rather than he) are panicking : Peace Farida and everyone who is having a panic attack as a result of the indisputable fact Reply #1261 on: August 30, 2009,... Why in the world would we panic?! Who is paying us? The Saudi perhaps for cursing Abu Huraira ?!
Now please make a note of what NunHolidayPseudoEidRex said:
I have to focus on work, like you have to fly around and this stuff is taking too much time going in circles. Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 10:25:36 AM by NunHolidayPseudoEidRex ?
Have you ever heard Ayman expressing frustration at losing out on work with all the time devoted to this forum. Please give me just one such example- anyone?In between Got to go catch a plane will reply to others later. on: September 04, 2009, 01:32:04 AM
He is back on the forum within hours or as he landed : on: September 04, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
Now would all this clear circumstantial evidence change your view of Ayman? I think not,; I see this trend in all his followers who, despite all the convincing arguments shut their eyes, including out casting the blind. Not big ego but Ayman has got a lucrative job, and he is absolutely wrong about ramadan...This is brainwash. We have quite a few like Ayman; an MQM leader A. Hussein is one example, not much different from Al Zawahri or Osama. He was banned from Pakistan yet he is controlling the population of Karachi from the UK via internet. :bravo:
I do feel that you are sincere in your search for the truth and I pray to God to lead us to the right path of those He favoured not the path of those who went astray.
:peace:
Ps: I remember you saying this:
I am in his blood line (a direct descendant) on both my father and mother side, via Hassan, and Ali + Fatima. For me, it is a genealogy family tree matterYou must be pleased to know that now your family lineage goes back to the Prince of Hira and not poor Ali :bravo:
Quote from: Q_student on September 08, 2009, 11:44:01 AM
\
Peace Brother
Where is provision of Ijtihaad in the Quran ?
Regards
47:24 Do they not reflect on the Quran? Or are there locks on their minds?
47:25
Surely, those who reverted back, after the guidance has been made clear to them, the devil has enticed them and led them on.54:17 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
54:22 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
54:32 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
54:40 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
Which fatwa will you follow - God's or shafii's? :hmm
Quote from: belHAyman, as we have told you before, Madoodat Means Counted...It Does Not Mean 3-10 nor 30 nor 100...it does not mean few, as well...Simply, COUNTED.
Makes sense, but what does 'few' mean then?
I will get my undestand/not understand list up in a few days (ayyaman madoodatin (?)), illa an yasha Allah.
Peace
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 08, 2009, 02:26:55 PM
47:24 Do they not reflect on the Quran? Or are there locks on their minds?
47:25 Surely, those who reverted back, after the guidance has been made clear to them, the devil has enticed them and led them on.
54:17 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
54:22 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
54:32 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
54:40 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
Which fatwa will you follow - God's or shafii's? :hmm
Makes sense, but what does 'few' mean then?
I will get my undestand/not understand list up in a few days (ayyaman madoodatin (?)), illa an yasha Allah.
Peace
Peace :
Would you please define ijtihaad ? So that we should know what are we talking about ?
Regards
OK. To those who accept the traditional Ramadan, what is your position regarding other controversial issues like the restricted months, the hajj, the Salat etc??
Do you accept the traditional formulas too??
Quote from: Rami on September 08, 2009, 03:35:46 PM
OK. To those who accept the traditional Ramadan, what is your position regarding other controversial issues like the restricted months, the hajj, the Salat etc??
Do you accept the traditional formulas too??
Hajj is to be done in the 4 restricted months, which are consecutive (12th-3rd month). Let's not go off topic with salat - I will tell you one thing though: the traditional salat is idolatry.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 08, 2009, 03:45:55 PM
Hajj is to be done in the 4 restricted months, which are consecutive (12th-3rd month). Let's not go off topic with salat - I will tell you one thing though: the traditional salat is idolatry.
The guys who told you Ramadan is the ninth months don't agree with your consecutive months theory. The Hajj are months well known.
And the traditional Salat is NOT idolatry. Most of the Tashahud is prayer to God for Mohammed. Nowhere in the Salat do you CALL on Mohammed.
So you are going on a maverick course my friend.
Quote from: Rami on September 08, 2009, 03:35:46 PM
OK. To those who accept the traditional Ramadan, what is your position regarding other controversial issues like the restricted months, the hajj, the Salat etc??
Do you accept the traditional formulas too??
Peace :
As far as Salaat ,Hajj ,Zakaat or Ramadahn is concerne there is no controversial issue among the muslim community.Those who differ from them they should clear their position.
Regards
Quote from: Rami on September 08, 2009, 03:51:34 PM
The guys who told you Ramadan is the ninth months don't agree with your consecutive months theory. The Hajj are months well known.
And the traditional Salat is NOT idolatry. Most of the Tashahud is prayer to God for Mohammed. Nowhere in the Salat do you CALL on Mohammed.
So you are going on a maverick course my friend.
Direct quote from muslim-canada.org/salaat.html:
"All greetings, blessings and good acts are from You, my Lord.
Greetings to you, O Prophet, and the mercy and blessings of Allah.
Peace be unto us, and unto the righteous servants of Allah.
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah.
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."
At the end of their salat they say the following (even when praying alone):
"Peace and blessings of God be upon you."
To whom are they adressing this?
72:18 The temples are for God, so do not call on anyone alongside God.
Are you trying to tell me that the Sunnis are not setting up partners to God with their salat?
As for Ramadan in the 9th month vs. the 4 consecutive restricted months...
Who is 'they'? Sunnis? Rashad Khalifa? Submitters?
Be clear..
Quote from: Rev.John on September 08, 2009, 04:01:29 PM
(http://www.christianunitarian.org/f8d884aa56226d91ee8a4aca13835514.gif)
Thanks i tried to do that but fail
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 08, 2009, 04:05:49 PM
Direct quote from muslim-canada.org/salaat.html:
"All greetings, blessings and good acts are from You, my Lord.
Greetings to you, O Prophet, and the mercy and blessings of Allah.
Peace be unto us, and unto the righteous servants of Allah.
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah.
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."
At the end of their salat they say the following (even when praying alone):
"Peace and blessings of God be upon you."
To whom are they adressing this?
72:18 The temples are for God, so do not call on anyone alongside God.
Are you trying to tell me that the Sunnis are not setting up partners to God with their salat?
As for Ramadan in the 9th month vs. the 4 consecutive restricted months...
Who is 'they'? Sunnis? Rashad Khalifa? Submitters?
Be clear..
Sunni Islam.
Regarding the tashahud, you DIDN'T pray to Mohammed for anything. I know its a fabrication but its not idolatry. It is just plain ignorance.
Quote from: afridi220 on September 08, 2009, 04:11:39 PM
Thanks i tried to do that but fail
It is on my church website
Quote from: Rami on September 08, 2009, 04:11:58 PM
Sunni Islam.
Then your question doesnt make sense, since the Sunnis have random restricted months which are not consecutive - totally against what the Quran says.
Quote from: Rami on September 08, 2009, 04:11:58 PM
Regarding the tashahud, you DIDN'T pray to Mohammed for anything. I know its a fabrication but its not idolatry. It is just plain ignorance.
'you'? THEY are CALLING on the Prophet and mentioning ALONGSIDE GOD. You think that that's not shirk (setting up partners)?
Anyways...what does salat have to do with Ramadan and fasting?
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 08, 2009, 04:18:04 PM
Then your question doesnt make sense, since the Sunnis have random restricted months which are not consecutive - totally against what the Quran says.
'you'? THEY are CALLING on the Prophet and mentioning ALONGSIDE GOD. You think that that's not shirk (setting up partners)?
Anyways...what does salat have to do with Ramadan and fasting?
Nothing. I wanted to make a point.
Let the match continue between the Scorching Moon Cronie Intercalators and the Traditional Islam Arbitrary Counters.
Quote from: Rev.John on September 08, 2009, 04:12:31 PM
It is on my church website
I have this in my pc but i can not load it here in the forum, in my avatar you can see it is in still position. :(
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 08, 2009, 04:05:49 PM
Direct quote from muslim-canada.org/salaat.html:
"All greetings, blessings and good acts are from You, my Lord.
Greetings to you, O Prophet, and the mercy and blessings of Allah.
Peace be unto us, and unto the righteous servants of Allah.
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah.
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."
At the end of their salat they say the following (even when praying alone):
"Peace and blessings of God be upon you."
To whom are they adressing this?
72:18 The temples are for God, so do not call on anyone alongside God.
Are you trying to tell me that the Sunnis are not setting up partners to God with their salat?
33:56 ان that الله God وملائكته and His angels يصلون enjoin sal?t (blessings, mercy) علي on النبي the prophet يأيها O you الذين who امنوا believe صلوا call for God?s sal?t (blessings) عليه on him (the prophet) وسلموا and great تسليما greetings.
Salaam afridi and Rev John
Can you please try not to derail this thread with off-topics?
Thanks for your cooperation.
Peace Sis farida,
I made my position clear.
I gather my knowledge from whence Allah guides me.
Slandering a Muslim without proof brings a punishment equal to the punishment you accuse him/her of.
What you are talking about is circumstantial.
As for the one who asked me about ijtihad, take a good arabic dictionary and it will tell you, and do not give me the quick one that
it does not work because there is no such a word in the Quran, by the way I explained to you ijtihad with all the examples I gave you, you can figure it out...
I am not into spoon feeding...
Quote from: farida on September 07, 2009, 10:04:36 AM
Attention Moderators
Salaam everyone,
I would like you to stop this malicious campaign and stop Ayman from spreading deliberate lies, as my reply below reflects my stance:
I would also like the readers and the moderators to make a note that I bade goodbye to this circular discussion, but not to this thread.
Ayman, seeing that I have left the discussion, taking advantage of my absence and starting his spiteful propaganda again as everyone can see in his reply above and in the interast of decency and fairness I would request the moderators to investigage and put an end to this at their earliest.
Best wishes and regards
farida
Quote from: farida on September 08, 2009, 02:13:02 PM
Salaam brother Nabil & everyone
I cannot provide a proof that Dr Ayman is working for money on this forum as I would need to access his account details and obviously I can?t do that. However, using Ayman?s favourate term, I can ?empirically verify? that someone is financially compensating Dr Ayman for devoting all his working time, writing in this forum.
From my last years experience on this topic I learned that prolific posting on this forum was as time consuming as a full time job. This year I planned it in such a way that I had my time off work incorporated into the month of Ramadan when I took on this ?jihad?.
Since I came back on this forum from August 16, 2009, and till today, despite not doing my regular work, I still have neglected my family who are quite irritated to see me absorbed in confronting the A-team. Ayman, as compared to me, has been far more prolific than I and has written many more replies to all and sundry, and on more than one topic.
Given the need to support his family, which we know he has, and his high flying lifestyle, beside his full time dedication to this forum, conducting a veritable Guerilla Blog-fare, where can he possibly find the time to go out and earn a living? Unless he is from among the Jinn it simply is not feasible (A lecture here or there will not provide a living).
The repeated reminder from Team Ayman of looming bankruptcy reflects their own fear of what must come if they lose out; I think that Farida's "dark agency" accusations are probably the funniest and most bankrupt argument (= bankrupting Ayman) September 06, 2009, 08:33:00 PM
He has consistently been jumping from one subject to another, like a squirrel in heat, and when defeated he bawls: If you are truthful then prove from your investigation of the great reading that Ramadan is the 9th month of a lunar calendar.And so it goes on and on, in circles, like the ripples in a lake where the fish are jumping.
He challenged us several time about the uses of the crescent moons, as per 2:189, to time the "hajj". I guarantee that you will NEVER be able to answer. Which is off list since I shamed him with my answer. He is in denial of anything that refers to AH (after Hijri)...
Then (out of frustration) he stoops to name calling; eg The Sunnis is as lost as you. Reply #1224 on: August 27, 2009,
And seeing he has lost his argument he turns to projection, claiming we (rather than he) are panicking : Peace Farida and everyone who is having a panic attack as a result of the indisputable fact Reply #1261 on: August 30, 2009,... Why in the world would we panic?! Who is paying us? The Saudi perhaps for cursing Abu Huraira ?!
Now please make a note of what NunHolidayPseudoEidRex said: I have to focus on work, like you have to fly around and this stuff is taking too much time going in circles. Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 10:25:36 AM by NunHolidayPseudoEidRex ?
Have you ever heard Ayman expressing frustration at losing out on work with all the time devoted to this forum. Please give me just one such example- anyone?
In between Got to go catch a plane will reply to others later. on: September 04, 2009, 01:32:04 AM
He is back on the forum within hours or as he landed : on: September 04, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
Now would all this clear circumstantial evidence change your view of Ayman?
I think not,; I see this trend in all his followers who, despite all the convincing arguments shut their eyes, including out casting the blind. Not big ego but Ayman has got a lucrative job, and he is absolutely wrong about ramadan...This is brainwash.
We have quite a few like Ayman; an MQM leader A. Hussein is one example, not much different from Al Zawahri or Osama. He was banned from Pakistan yet he is controlling the population of Karachi from the UK via internet. :bravo:
I do feel that you are sincere in your search for the truth and I pray to God to lead us to the right path of those He favoured not the path of those who went astray.
:peace:
Ps: I remember you saying this: I am in his blood line (a direct descendant) on both my father and mother side, via Hassan, and Ali + Fatima. For me, it is a genealogy family tree matter
You must be pleased to know that now your family lineage goes back to the Prince of Hira and not poor Ali :bravo:
I've been traveling and hence have not been able to keep up with this thread. It has been brought to my attention that things have gotten out of hand and I suppose it was only a matter of time.
First off, if someone proclaims a self-imposed exile to discussion but not to the thread or to the numerous off-topic posts that belong to said person...it is not an absence. Secondly, if they feel strongly about whatever has been posted they can always respond, to cry I want others to stop responding to what I've already posted on the thread because I want to be able to have the last word and to go on aggressively trying to intimidate and scare people with my little gems of wisdom that match those I want it to (but not me of course) to a T...sorry, that's not fair or decent except to those blindsided by their "brilliant" posts that are apparently completely above reproach.
As we've already established in the thread, in this posters case, fairness and decency is only when it suits them. For example, they can scream sexist and then call someone "a squirrel in heat". One can only imagine if someone else were to call this poster an "animal in heat" for them to start a self-righteous storm of indignation. If you can't take the heat, don't dish it out and expect others not to respond in kind because someone then wants to hide behind their skirts. There is no higher moral ground anymore.
Regarding the continued (rather than one-time) slander of another poster on this thread, I'm not surprised to find the same poster involved who wastes no time accusing posters with a different point of view and who might happen to be long time/relatively active as "agents of the mysterious hidden hand". Heck, this forum was labeled as being financed by these mysterious entities of the deep, with the admin as willing and able cohorts/minions because it just isn't possible to allow differing interpretations/opinions on the same platform without being secret agents. What evidence you may ask? They post a lot, no one can post this much, I can't, someone else said they can't thus no one can, they have a high-flying lifestyle because they ride in planes (shock,gasp), they never complain about their family issues, how on earth do they support their families if they post a lot on the forum, these mad juggling skillz cannot be!...but wait, I did take some time out to carry on the "holy fight"...but don't anyone dare accuse this poster of being on temporary payroll because they aren't, they say so themselves and that's enough for it to be truth.
Regardless of what has been said, if this poster carries on and gets banned...they will always maintain it's because the "powers that be" can't take the "mad debatin' skillz" of said poster...most others reading the thread/forum however would know the actual reason as to why, especially when others having the same opinion continue like it's business as usual.
Once more for the road, personal attacks will not be tolerated, try to stay on topic, be respectful to other users, and all the other ruley type things.
Quote from: theNabster on September 08, 2009, 05:05:55 PM
Peace Sis farida,
I made my position clear.
I gather my knowledge from whence Allah guides me.
Slandering a Muslim without proof brings a punishment equal to the punishment you accuse him/her of.
What you are talking about is circumstantial.
As for the one who asked me about ijtihad, take a good arabic dictionary and it will tell you, and do not give me the quick one that
it does not work because there is no such a word in the Quran, by the way I explained to you ijtihad with all the examples I gave you, you can figure it out...
I am not into spoon feeding...
Salaam brother Nabil,
Yes all those claims from Ayman that Umar was a hidden Jew and all the companions of the prophet were corrupt , like in Morocco/Jordan bought for $300. What proof did he produce for such grave accusations???
It hurts you if anyone attacks Ayman's credibility, whereas Ayman has a free pass to attack the whole of Islamic history including the best past where Jews and Muslims lived side by side like cousins.
Wassalaam
Farida
Peace Sis Farida
Cool down Sister...
no it does not hurt me, matter of fact what Ayman thinks is none of my business. He just happens to have some interesting
insights, and I picked up on them.
Again I repeat the ramadan proposal is correct as far as I double checked, and it took me four years to get convinced!
So I was slow and careful...
Umar being a zionist is a joke, zionism is a modern concept, one might as well say that Moses was a zionist, and Israel/Jacob... etc.
Err, I will burst your bubble, but on my grandmother side of my father, I have jewish ancestry who converted to Islam, does that make me a zionist too according to Ayman?, I think he just likes using shocking expressions, and even now, not all jews are zionists btw...
As for those you refer to, they are dead, or absent, or I do not know them, however you are pointing accusations at someone who is a participant in this forum, and among other things, this violates some forum rules...
If he has accused you of anything as serious, you are entitled to ask that he be banned, I am afraid...
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 08, 2009, 02:26:55 PM
Makes sense, but what does 'few' mean then?
I will get my undestand/not understand list up in a few days (ayyaman madoodatin (?)), illa an yasha Allah.
Peace all,
Few means Kaleal قليل (God used this word more than 100 time in Quran).
Now here is another verse where معدود is used, which cannot mean any thing except COUNTED.
And We do not delay it except to a term already counted.
11:104 وما نؤخره إلا لأجل
معدودGod has Counted Humans' Life-Term in this Earth...For sure it has been more than 10 years since human creation!!!
Thus, Madoda does not mean Few nor 3 to 10 but COUNTED.
Now, would Ayman and Samia concur to this meaning, or would they continue to dispute, OR will they not answer?
Quote from: siki on September 08, 2009, 02:26:43 AM
"Maadood" is a common word which we use in urdu every day, and there is absolutely no doubt about it that it means , "A very limited count"
I hope 11-104 would clarify the misunderstanding that Ayman created.
Peace
Quote from: belH on September 08, 2009, 06:01:00 PM
And We do not delay it except to a term already counted.
11:104 وما نؤخره إلا لأجل معدود
God has Counted Humans' Life-Term in this Earth...For sure it has been more than 10 years since human creation!!!
Peace
"Ajal" is singular here, meaning one "ajal"= appointed.
Context is the key word!
a small; a little (qaleel) is not A few (ma3doodat).
Again: look at the context of these more than a 100 times where "qaleela" is used. It's adverb or again describing a singular.
You chose a dictionary and I showed you that it says ( a few), using the dictionary of your choice.
If you want to understand it as "counted", go ahead. No one is forcing you. As for me, I am not discussing this meaning anymore.
Peace all,
I want to share with you some Facts about This Thread.
This thread started in 2004 by Ayman--5 years old thread
As of August 2008, one year ago, this thread had 5 pages of replies (92 replies) and 800 viewers.
Since last year, August 2008, until today, The believers decided to confront Ayman and started posting their arguments...the result are, the believers have attracted more than 30,000 viewers and generated 113 pages of replies (1600 replies).
:bravo:
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2009, 06:21:49 PM
"Ajal" is singular here, meaning one "ajal"= appointed.
Context is the key word!
a small; a little (qaleel) is not A few (ma3doodat).
Again: look at the context of these more than a 100 times where "qaleela" is used. It's adverb or again describing a singular.
You chose a dictionary and I showed you that it says ( a few), using the dictionary of your choice.
If you want to understand it as "counted", go ahead. No one is forcing you. As for me, I am not discussing this meaning anymore.
Simple Question, What is the meaning of the word Madod in 11-104?
DOES IT MEAN FEW? NO
DOES IT MEAN 3 to 10? NO
DOES IT MEAN COUNTED? YES
Quote from: belH on September 08, 2009, 06:44:51 PM
Simple Question, What is the meaning of the word Madod in 11-104?
DOES IT MEAN FEW? NO
DOES IT MEAN 3 to 10? NO
DOES IT MEAN COUNTED? YES
The simple answer is its root is
ع د د .
Its Past tense :
عدّ He counted
Imperfect is :
يعدّ He counts /will count
Active participle :
عادّ = counter
Passive participle =
معدود = Counted
It is obvious even to a KG student of the Arabic language.
In fact Eyes cannot see what the mind does not know.
Regards
Quote from: belH on September 08, 2009, 06:44:51 PM
Simple Question, What is the meaning of the word Madod in 11-104?
DOES IT MEAN FEW? NO
DOES IT MEAN 3 to 10? NO
DOES IT MEAN COUNTED? YES
How many "ajals" are there in the verse? Counted from what pool?
from "maqayyesul lugha":
ومن الباب العِدَّانُ: الزمان، وسمِّي عِدّاناً لأنَّ كلَّ زمانٍ فهو محدود معدود
Translation:time is called "3iddan" because every time/period is limited and determined/decided/appointed
Here is a verse for you:
2:203:
وَاذْكُرُواْ اللّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْدُودَاتٍ فَمَن تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَن تَأَخَّرَ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ لِمَنِ اتَّقَى وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ
And remember God in a few days . But if any one
hastens to leave in two days, there is no blame on him, and if any one stays on, there is no blame on him, if his aim is to do right. Then fear God, and know that you will surely be gathered unto Him.
It's clear from this verse that less than "ma3doodat" will be 2.
OK.This time I am off this topic of "ma3dood/ma3doodat". Sorry if I refrain from responding to you next time.
You do not ask to learn, but to argue. I do not have time for that.
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2009, 07:19:49 PM
How many "ajals" are there in the verse? Counted from what pool?
from "maqayyesul lugha":
ومن الباب العِدَّانُ: الزمان، وسمِّي عِدّاناً لأنَّ كلَّ زمانٍ فهو محدود معدود
Translation:time is called "3iddan" because every time/period is limited and determined/decided/appointed
Peace :
Wrong translation :
Correct translation is :
time is called "3iddan" because every time/period is limited and COUNTED
You intentionally left the definition of Ma3dood by Maqayeesul lugha :
مقاييس اللغة - (ج 4 / ص 22)
فالعَدُّ: إحصاء الشيء. تقول: عددت الشيءَ أعُدُّه عَدّاً فأنا عادٌّ، والشيء معدود3addo = Counting of anything .you say ,"I counted a thing /I will count so I am a "counter and the THING IS COUNTED.
Moreovere it says :
معجم مقاييس اللغة لابن فارس - (ج 4 / ص 29)
والعَديد: الكثرة.
al-3adeed means MANY
This is the definition of Ma3dood given by this dicitonary.
Regards
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2009, 07:19:49 PM
Here is a verse for you:
2:203:
وَاذْكُرُواْ اللّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْدُودَاتٍ فَمَن تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَن تَأَخَّرَ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ لِمَنِ اتَّقَى وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ
And remember God in a few days . But if any one hastens to leave in two days, there is no blame on him, and if any one stays on, there is no blame on him, if his aim is to do right. Then fear God, and know that you will surely be gathered unto Him.
In addition to Q-Student reply, the following is more accurate translation of 2:203
And remember God in a counted (number of) days . But if any one
hastens to leave in two days, there is no blame on him, and if any one stays on, there is no blame on him, if his aim is to do right. Then fear God, and know that you will surely be gathered unto Him.
Two days are a "Counted Days (Number of)"
Peace
Quote from: Q_student on September 08, 2009, 07:34:01 PM
Peace :
Wrong translation :
Correct translation is :
time is called "3iddan" because every time/period is limited and COUNTED
You intentionally left the definition of Ma3dood by Maqayeesul lugha :
مقاييس اللغة - (ج 4 / ص 22)
فالعَدُّ: إحصاء الشيء. تقول: عددت الشيءَ أعُدُّه عَدّاً فأنا عادٌّ، والشيء معدود
3addo = Counting of anything .you say ,"I counted a thing /I will count so I am a "counter and the THING IS COUNTED.
Moreovere it says :
معجم مقاييس اللغة لابن فارس - (ج 4 / ص 29)
والعَديد: الكثرة.
al-3adeed means MANY
This is the definition of Ma3dood given by this dicitonary.
Regards
salaam brother
subhanAllah. very good arabic indeed. all praise to God.
brother would you please give us some examples to count an ajal? jazakumullahi khair.
God bless those who know arabic and hlep us understand quran elhamdulillah.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 09:26:41 PMWe were discussing THE FULL MOON ILLUSION that you are too proud to admit is NOT applicable.
No you were either babbling irrelevant info or deliberately lying and building a strawman. If you disagree then show me where I said that the scorching full-moon was on July 18, as you keep repeating. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were merely babbling and not deliberately lying.
You seem to have tunnel vision where you are focusing on something irrelevant that I never said (July 18) and forgetting the big picture. This was the same exact attitude that you had when you were promoting a Code 19 miracle sometime ago that supposedly preserved the great reading. After proving you wrong numerous times and going in circles exactly like on this thread, you finally admitted what should have been indisputable from post #1 via a Personal Message. This is OK because we all make mistakes. However, afterwards, I looked for you to correct what you had been writing on the forum but unfortunately you didn?t. So you didn?t care that someone might be misguided by the wrong info that you provided and all you cared about was your ego. You are doing the same thing in this discussion.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 07, 2009, 09:26:41 PMhttp://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2008&n=263
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Data for June 18, 2008 FULL MOON 1:31 PM
19:50 -2.9 124.1 1.00
20:00 -1.3 125.6 1.00
20:10 0.7 127.1 1.00 HUGE FULL MOON ILLUSION AFTER SUNSET!
20:20 2.0 128.6 1.00
Summer Solstice June 21, 2008
Data for July 17, 2008
19:20 -1.7 120.7 1.00
19:30 0.4 122.2 1.00 was this the full moon illusion?
19:40 1.8 123.7 1.00
Data for July 18, 2008 Full Moon 3:59 AM Ayman's HOT MOON
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:50 -2.4 115.2 1.00
20:00 -0.1 116.7 0.99
20:10 1.4 118.2 0.99 not full moon after sunset; was this the illusion?
20:20 2.9 119.7 0.99
Answer the TWO simple YES or NO questions that I asked you.
1. Does THE FULL MOON ILLUSION have anything to do with it?
2. Did you see THE FULL MOON ILLUSION last year after the solstice?
So finally, you post the data for the scorching full moon on July 17. However, still in your tunnel vision you forgot that the break between days at midnight is arbitrary and that the day actually is from dawn to the next dawn. The scorching full moon (100% full) as you can see from the data started to appear on July 17 at 19:30 at the same time that the sun set and not July 18 as you wrongly said.
Now we will see why you are deliberately snipping the data so that people don?t see how fast and how far the moon rises by midnight on July 17 compared to by midnight on June 18. Here is the truth that you are hiding:
WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 17, 2008
Eastern Standard Time
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 0.4 122.2 1.00
19:40 1.8 123.7 1.00
19:50 3.3 125.3 1.00
20:00 4.8 126.9 1.00
20:10 6.3 128.5 1.00
20:20 7.7 130.2 1.00
20:30 9.1 131.9 1.00
20:40 10.5 133.6 1.00
20:50 11.9 135.4 1.00
21:00 13.2 137.2 1.00
21:10 14.5 139.1 1.00
21:20 15.7 141.0 1.00
21:30 16.9 143.0 1.00
21:40 18.0 145.0 1.00
21:50 19.1 147.0 1.00
22:00 20.1 149.1 1.00
22:10 21.1 151.3 1.00
22:20 22.0 153.5 1.00
22:30 22.8 155.7 1.00
22:40 23.5 158.0 1.00
22:50 24.2 160.3 1.00
23:00 24.9 162.7 1.00
23:10 25.4 165.1 1.00
23:20 25.9 167.5 1.00
23:30 26.3 169.9 1.00
23:40 26.6 172.4 1.00
23:50 26.8 174.9 1.00Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jun 18, 2008
Eastern Standard Time
20:10 0.7 127.1 1.00
20:20 2.0 128.6 1.00
20:30 3.4 130.2 1.00
20:40 4.7 131.8 1.00
20:50 6.1 133.5 1.00
21:00 7.4 135.2 1.00
21:10 8.7 136.9 1.00
21:20 10.0 138.7 1.00
21:30 11.2 140.5 1.00
21:40 12.4 142.3 1.00
21:50 13.5 144.2 1.00
22:00 14.6 146.1 1.00
22:10 15.6 148.1 1.00
22:20 16.6 150.1 1.00
22:30 17.5 152.1 1.00
22:40 18.3 154.2 1.00
22:50 19.1 156.3 1.00
23:00 19.9 158.5 1.00
23:10 20.5 160.6 1.00
23:20 21.1 162.9 1.00
23:30 21.7 165.1 1.00
23:40 22.1 167.4 1.00
23:50 22.5 169.7 1.00By midnight only a miniscule 4.3 degrees difference between the moon BEFORE and AFTER the solstice. So the moon AFTER the solstice similarly took a very low path across the horizon, which is the source of the red color and illusion of a larger size. So this is why we saw a solstice moon illusion and red color on July 17 SAME as on June 18. So the answer to your two questions is YES and YES.
Compare this to the full-moon on December 12 that you erroneously wanted to convince us with and which climbs very quickly and is higher by a huge
52.1 degrees by midnight:
Data for night of December 12, 2008:
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:50 1.3 56.2 1.00
17:00 2.7 57.6 1.00
17:10 4.2 59.1 1.00
17:20 5.8 60.5 1.00
17:30 7.4 61.9 1.00
17:40 9.0 63.2 1.00
17:50 10.7 64.6 1.00
18:00 12.4 65.9 1.00
18:10 14.1 67.2 1.00
18:20 15.8 68.5 1.00
18:30 17.5 69.8 1.00
18:40 19.3 71.1 1.00
18:50 21.1 72.4 1.00
19:00 22.8 73.6 1.00
19:10 24.6 74.9 1.00
19:20 26.5 76.2 1.00
19:30 28.3 77.5 1.00
19:40 30.1 78.7 1.00
19:50 31.9 80.0 1.00
20:00 33.8 81.3 1.00
20:10 35.6 82.6 1.00
20:20 37.5 84.0 1.00
20:30 39.4 85.3 1.00
20:40 41.2 86.7 1.00
20:50 43.1 88.2 1.00
21:00 45.0 89.6 1.00
21:10 46.9 91.2 1.00
21:20 48.8 92.7 1.00
21:30 50.6 94.4 1.00
21:40 52.5 96.1 1.00
21:50 54.4 97.9 1.00
22:00 56.2 99.8 1.00
22:10 58.1 101.9 1.00
22:20 59.9 104.1 1.00
22:30 61.7 106.5 1.00
22:40 63.5 109.2 1.00
22:50 65.3 112.1 1.00
23:00 67.0 115.3 1.00
23:10 68.7 118.9 1.00
23:20 70.3 123.1 1.00
23:30 71.9 127.8 1.00
23:40 73.3 133.2 1.00
23:50 74.6 139.5 1.00You have such tunnel vision that you couldn?t understand even the title of the article that you brought yourself:
Why the Moon Looks Big at the Horizon and Smaller When Higher UpUnlike the wrong understanding that you have been repeating, as clear from the title, the article doesn?t dispute the fact that the moon looks big close to the horizon. It only provides explanation as to why our brains perceive it this way. I don?t care about the why and neither did the pre-Islamic Arabs. The observable fact is that it appears big close to THE HORIZON. Another indisputable fact is that not only it looks big but is also REDDISH in color (due to light refraction at low altitudes). It is an indisputable fact that BOTH the full-moon BEFORE and AFTER the solstice will take the LOWEST path across the horizon of ALL the full-moons and thus are the CLOSEST to the horizon. It is also an indisputable fact that the average temperature around the time of the full-moon AFTER the solstice will always be higher than the temperature around the full-moon BEFORE it. So only the full-moon AFTER the solstice satisfies the TWO connotations of ?scorching?, RED and HOT. If you disagree then please show any other full-moon which takes a lower path across the horizon than those two. I know you can?t and neither can Guest, no matter what ignorant things he says. This is not because I have a big ego like you but because it is a physical impossibility. If you get out of your tunnel vision and admit to this indisputable truth and correct then we can continue to discuss.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:14:50 PM
Peace Eid,
No you were either babbling irrelevant info or deliberately lying and building a strawman. If you disagree then show me where I said that the scorching full-moon was on July 18, as you keep repeating. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were merely babbling and not deliberately lying.
You seem to have tunnel vision where you are focusing on something irrelevant that I never said (July 18) and forgetting the big picture. This was the same exact attitude that you had when you were promoting a Code 19 miracle sometime ago that supposedly preserved the great reading. After proving you wrong numerous times and going in circles exactly like on this thread, you finally admitted what should have been indisputable from post #1 via a Personal Message. This is OK because we all make mistakes. However, afterwards, I looked for you to correct what you had been writing on the forum but unfortunately you didn?t. So you didn?t care that someone might be misguided by the wrong info that you provided and all you cared about was your ego. You are doing the same thing in this discussion.
...If you get out of your tunnel vision and admit to this indisputable truth and correct then we can continue to discuss.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
OUCH !!!
:elektro: :rotfl: :brickwall: :yay: :'( O0 :sun:
Quote from: belH on September 08, 2009, 06:37:42 PM
Peace all,
I want to share with you some Facts about This Thread.
This thread started in 2004 by Ayman--5 years old thread
As of August 2008, one year ago, this thread had 5 pages of replies (92 replies) and 800 viewers.
Since last year, August 2008, until today, The believers decided to confront Ayman and started posting their arguments...the result are, the believers have attracted more than 30,000 viewers and generated 113 pages of replies (1600 replies).
:bravo:
No , i think The disbelievers decided to confront Ayman and started posting their circular silly arguments...the result are, the dis-believers have attracted more than 30,000 viewers and generated 113 pages of rep-lies (out of 1600 replies).
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 08, 2009, 06:37:42 PMI want to share with you some Facts about This Thread.
This thread started in 2004 by Ayman--5 years old thread
As of August 2008, one year ago, this thread had 5 pages of replies (92 replies) and 800 viewers.
Since last year, August 2008, until today, The believers decided to confront Ayman and started posting their arguments...the result are, the believers have attracted more than 30,000 viewers and generated 113 pages of replies (1600 replies).
:bravo:
So the believers are posting a lot. Don't tell this to Farida or she will think all the believers are secret agents. :)
Since you mentioned statistics. Here is another revealing statistic:
Name:
belH Posts: 1428 (
2.746 per day)
Position: Advanced Truth Seeker
Date Registered: April 06, 2008, 08:48:52 PM
Name:
farida Posts: 1326 (
2.018 per day)
Position: Advanced Truth Seeker
Date Registered: November 20, 2007, 11:38:38 PM
Last Active: Today at 07:19:26 PM
Name:
ayman Posts: 2285 (
0.933 per day)
Position: Wise One / Burnout
Date Registered: December 25, 2002, 07:32:38 PM
Farida is posting at more than double my rate of posting so I guess the Bearded Mullah Agency wasn't hit as hard by the recession as other dark agencies. You are posting at almost triple my rate so be careful because Farida's might suspect you to be a double agent and put you on her hit list. :)
Sorry for the off-topic but I couldn't hold my self from laughing loud and it came at a good time when I needed it after a tiring day. Thanks Farida and Belal for chearing me up with your gems. :)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:34:29 PM
Peace Belal,
So the believers are posting a lot. Don't tell this to Farida or she will think all the believers are secret agents. :)
Since you mentioned statistics. Here is another revealing statistic:
Name: belH
Posts: 1428 (2.746 per day)
Position: Advanced Truth Seeker
Date Registered: April 06, 2008, 08:48:52 PM
Name: farida
Posts: 1326 (2.018 per day)
Position: Advanced Truth Seeker
Date Registered: November 20, 2007, 11:38:38 PM
Last Active: Today at 07:19:26 PM
Name: ayman
Posts: 2285 (0.933 per day)
Position: Wise One / Burnout
Date Registered: December 25, 2002, 07:32:38 PM
Farida is posting at more than double my rate of posting so I guess the Bearded Mullah Agency wasn't hit as hard by the recession as other dark agencies. You are posting at almost triple my rate so be careful because Farida's might suspect you to be a double agent and put you on her hit list. :)
Sorry for the off-topic but I couldn't hold my self from laughing loud and it came at a good time when I needed it after a tiring day. Thanks Farida and Belal for chearing me up with your gems. :)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Re-ouucchhhh !!!
Peace Quickduck,
Quote from: quickduck on September 08, 2009, 09:30:35 PMOUCH !!!
:elektro: :rotfl: :brickwall: :yay: :'( O0 :sun:
Actually, perhaps the only appropriate emotion is crying. There is nothing to laugh or be happy about and I feel sorry that I had to post this. However, this is bigger than me or Eid. What if my children read the site? We should always correct our mistakes publicly in the same way that we give our opinion publicly. As we are now people of the book we bear a heavy burden to reveal it to people. The god has surrounded us all and at the end we can only be saved by his mercy. May the god help Eid, Farida, Guest, Q_Student and help us all for we were once like them.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:34:29 PM
Peace Belal,
So the believers are posting a lot. Don't tell this to Farida or she will think all the believers are secret agents. :)
Since you mentioned statistics. Here is another revealing statistic:
Name: belH
Posts: 1428 (2.746 per day)
Position: Advanced Truth Seeker
Date Registered: April 06, 2008, 08:48:52 PM
Name: farida
Posts: 1326 (2.018 per day)
Position: Advanced Truth Seeker
Date Registered: November 20, 2007, 11:38:38 PM
Last Active: Today at 07:19:26 PM
Name: ayman
Posts: 2285 (0.933 per day)
Position: Wise One / Burnout
Date Registered: December 25, 2002, 07:32:38 PM
Farida is posting at more than double my rate of posting so I guess the Bearded Mullah Agency wasn't hit as hard by the recession as other dark agencies. You are posting at almost triple my rate so be careful because Farida's might suspect you to be a double agent and put you on her hit list. :)
Sorry for the off-topic but I couldn't hold my self from laughing loud and it came at a good time when I needed it after a tiring day. Thanks Farida and Belal for chearing me up with your gems. :)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
:rotfl:
This is between you and Frida...I'm out of it.
Let us focus on what will benefit the readers.
:)
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:43:36 PM
Peace Quickduck,
Actually, perhaps the only appropriate emotion is crying. There is nothing to laugh or be happy about and I feel sorry that I had to post this. However, this is bigger than me or Eid. What if my children read the site? We should always correct our mistakes publicly in the same way that we give our opinion publicly. As we are now people of the book we bear a heavy burden to reveal it to people. The god has surrounded us all and at the end we can only be saved by his mercy. May the god help Eid, Farida, Guest, Q_Student and help us all for we were once like them.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
sorry i had to laugh my head off, but sincerly, the one thing i'm afraid of, is that if any genuine truthseeker came by this site and reads this thread, he will be lost , because af the huge amount of idiocy babbled and babbled again, by .....they would recognize themselves.
You act like old loving caring brother with them, and they treat back as secret agent willing to destruct islam, starting from the sahaba, then
muhammad and finishing with Quran . What kind of feedback/reward is this ??
I, like nabil, don't agree with you on all your explanations, maybe because you're wrong or because i didn't give enough time to read, search and analyse. But as far as this Ramadan issue, it seemed so clear and so logic from Page 1, except some doubting details. those doubts vanished 5 pages later. so i am very disappointed to see that this thread is now 113 pages.
I am pretty sure that they are not that stupid, but they do this circular arguing DELIBERATLY so this thread could loose credibility.
some of them even logged with different usernames to fake a huge confrontation against your ideas. to me it's really a kind of conspiracy.
It's sad, but i'm afraid very few new visitors would dare read through all those over a thousand rep-lies, and turn back,(except those whom GOD helps).
"wa man adhlamu min man iftaraa 3ala allahi al-kadeb" ?
Peace
Guys, let's get back on topic. Thanks!
Quote from: quickduck on September 08, 2009, 10:02:53 PM
Peace Ayman,
sorry i had to laugh my head off, but sincerly, the one thing i'm afraid of, is that if any genuine truthseeker came by this site and reads this thread, he will be lost , because af the huge amount of idiocy babbled and babbled again, by .....they would recognize themselves.
You act like old loving caring brother with them, and they treat back as secret agent willing to destruct islam, starting from the sahaba, then
muhammad and finishing with Quran . What kind of feedback/reward is this ??
I, like nabil, don't agree with you on all your explanations, maybe because you're wrong or because i didn't give enough time to read, search and analyse. But as far as this Ramadan issue, it seemed so clear and so logic from Page 1, except some doubting details. those doubts vanished 5 pages later. so i am very disappointed to see that this thread is now 113 pages.
I am pretty sure that they are not that stupid, but they do this circular arguing DELIBERATLY so this thread could loose credibility.
some of them even logged with different usernames to fake a huge confrontation against your ideas. to me it's really a kind of conspiracy.
It's sad, but i'm afraid very few new visitors would dare read through all those over a thousand rep-lies, and turn back,(except those whom GOD helps).
"wa man adhlamu min man iftaraa 3ala allahi al-kadeb" ?
Peace
Peace :
Your post is no surprise .It is very old theme.
وَإِنَّ الشَّيَاطِينَ لَيُوحُونَ إِلَى أَوْلِيَائِهِمْ لِيُجَادِلُوكُمْ [الأنعام/121]Regards
Quote from: quickduck on September 08, 2009, 10:02:53 PM
Peace Ayman,
sorry i had to laugh my head off, but sincerly, the one thing i'm afraid of, is that if any genuine truthseeker came by this site and reads this thread, he will be lost , because af the huge amount of idiocy babbled and babbled again, by .....they would recognize themselves.
You act like old loving caring brother with them, and they treat back as secret agent willing to destruct islam, starting from the sahaba, then
muhammad and finishing with Quran . What kind of feedback/reward is this ??
I, like nabil, don't agree with you on all your explanations, maybe because you're wrong or because i didn't give enough time to read, search and analyse. But as far as this Ramadan issue, it seemed so clear and so logic from Page 1, except some doubting details. those doubts vanished 5 pages later. so i am very disappointed to see that this thread is now 113 pages.
I am pretty sure that they are not that stupid, but they do this circular arguing DELIBERATLY so this thread could loose credibility.
some of them even logged with different usernames to fake a huge confrontation against your ideas. to me it's really a kind of conspiracy.
It's sad, but i'm afraid very few new visitors would dare read through all those over a thousand rep-lies, and turn back,(except those whom GOD helps).
"wa man adhlamu min man iftaraa 3ala allahi al-kadeb" ?
Peace
:hypno:
Gregory XIII, 1502?85, pope (1572?85) had introduced Ayman's theory before 500 years ago...why do not you gave the Pope the credit? or your blind love for Ayman made you unjust. :yes
I told you the scorching hot moon will win. :sun:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:14:50 PM
You seem to have tunnel vision where you are focusing on something irrelevant that I never said (July 18) and forgetting the big picture. This was the same exact attitude that you had when you were promoting a Code 19 miracle sometime ago that supposedly preserved the great reading. After proving you wrong numerous times and going in circles exactly like on this thread, you finally admitted what should have been indisputable from post #1 via a Personal Message. This is OK because we all make mistakes. However, afterwards, I looked for you to correct what you had been writing on the forum but unfortunately you didn?t. So you didn?t care that someone might be misguided by the wrong info that you provided and all you cared about was your ego. You are doing the same thing in this discussion.
Yes, I did change my mind on code 19 after figuring out that it was all random, could not find any consistency, you pointed out some like flipping verses and did a lot of my own work looked into thoroughly was finding multiples everywhere which was the main reason I came back with Holiday, Pseudo, and Eid to dispel all that nonsense which you can easily search my user names and see that most of my posts were to refute the nineteen obsessed...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3466;sa=showPosts
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3633;sa=showPosts
What you do Ayman when proven wrong instead of repenting and make your mistakes right, you deny clear evidence, attack the messengers that brought you the contradicting news about your hot moon; you cannot let go of your ego which is the same that infected nineteen cult. You belittle people, build a straw man/woman call them ignorant, say they babbling, lying, etc., all one has to do is search your posts and you even stoop low as in the above PM example not telling truth what actually transpired.
Tell people about your PM to me and what you requested about my work/posts in the 19 forum.
On this hot moon topic you are more lost, obsessed, and illogical than those infected with fitna of 74:31.
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:43:36 PM
Actually, perhaps the only appropriate emotion is crying. There is nothing to laugh or be happy about and I feel sorry that I had to post this. However, this is bigger than me or Eid. What if my children read the site? We should always correct our mistakes publicly in the same way that we give our opinion publicly. As we are now people of the book we bear a heavy burden to reveal it to people. The god has surrounded us all and at the end we can only be saved by his mercy. May the god help Eid, Farida, Guest, Q_Student and help us all for we were once like them.
Hopefully you'll explain to your children why people don't fast who live in cloudy weather or the blind.
Hopefully they'll see a picture of the globe that it is the same night in both Hemispheres and you won't call them ignorant or accuse them of babbling and lying when they ask you to explain why Qur'an was descended in a night not TWO Nights and TWO Ramadans.
(http://i25.tinypic.com/2im6s6h.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcrT9A_MLA0&
1. Ha.-Mim
2 By the manifest Book (this Qur'an) that makes things clear.
3 That We descended it (this Qur'an) down on a blessed night, that We are ever warning.
All best wishes to you and your children; may they grow up reading the Book, attain wisdom, and know the truth.
Peace
Peace
As we know it, time is relative, however The Quran was revealed to start with to communities in the middle east.
So when it was descended on the ramadan full moon (Jerusalem time) to the Archangel Gabriel, who was instructed
by Allah to reveal it and make it memorised in stages by Mohamed and his group of believers.
This was a localised event, even if the Quran is meant for the whole of humanity.
Now how could you explain fasting nearest to the North Pole where daylights can either be inexistent or last months?
We will deal with these issues when we reach them, as the sectarians have already dealt with them with their own
"ijtihad".
For now, we need to accept that ramadan is a full moon, and it is the one after the summer equinox (which corresponds to the hot/scorching one) in the middle east where the Quran was revealed.
Salaam
Nabster
and When you are ready to be tested say I Believe ...
Quote from: Q_student on September 08, 2009, 07:34:01 PM
Peace :
Wrong translation :
Correct translation is :
time is called "3iddan" because every time/period is limited and COUNTED
You intentionally left the definition of Ma3dood by Maqayeesul lugha :
مقاييس اللغة - (ج 4 / ص 22)
فالعَدُّ: إحصاء الشيء. تقول: عددت الشيءَ أعُدُّه عَدّاً فأنا عادٌّ، والشيء معدود
3addo = Counting of anything .you say ,"I counted a thing /I will count so I am a "counter and the THING IS COUNTED.
Moreovere it says :
معجم مقاييس اللغة لابن فارس - (ج 4 / ص 29)
والعَديد: الكثرة.
al-3adeed means MANY
This is the definition of Ma3dood given by this dicitonary.
Regards
salaam brother
found any example yet to count an ajal? thanks
I think the obvious thing to do would be for those who disagree with the "full moon of scorching heat" etc theory, is to write a clear and detailed rebuttal, as an article. Ideally, with an alternative.
These things are not difficult to do, but it takes a special kind of person to do them. We shall see.
Peace ayman,
my 'understand/not understand/need clarification' lists:
(Note for the reader: these are only things I understand/dont understand from Ayman's article - they dont necessarily represent my own position).
First off, here are the things I understand:
- 'shahr Ramadan' = 'full moon of scorching heat'
- this full moon appears after the summer solstice
- the Quran was sent down during the night appearance of this full moon (laylatul qadr)
- the year is solar: we should count 12 full moons in each of them, hence the calendar is luni-solar
- the crescents help us for the timing of the hajj, but also the fast, since it takes 10 days for the moon to go from its full moon phase into its crescent phase - the fasting and the hajj both take 10 days each.
- as exaplained above, the fasting is for 'ayyaman madoodatin', which means 'few days'. As per a hint from 7:142, one can conclude that fasting is for 10 days.
- the count of the full moons in a year is 12. Although 13 might appear in some years, they shall not be counted, as per the command in 9:36.
- the restricted full-moons are cleverly picked from Summer to Autumn, since this is when many female animals are pregnant, and to kill one of them would mean to kill their potential offspring.
Things that I dont understand/need clarification for:
- PERF 558 (a link with the contents of this documents and it's validity would be good)
- a clear and thorough exaplanation of why 17:12 and 10:5 make tell us that the year is solar and that the calendar is to be luni-solar. Also, a good reason why we should count from solstice to solstice and the command thereof in the Quran. Why not from winter solstice to winter soltice, or from autumn equinox to the next, etc.? Why not count the days and have the lunar months are markers?
I have noticed something very interesting from your article, which might seem insignificant at first, but with the right connection to the Bible, it has some significance :
The first full-moon of the restricted full-moons (the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan") is for abstinence while the remaining three full moons are for the debate. This gives people three opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate."
(note for the reader: ayman changed his definition of 'hajj' from 'debate' to 'feast')
Connection to: Exodus 23:14 "Three times a year you shall keep/observe a 'hag' to Me.
If there is anything that I have missed commenting about, then please let me know.
I'm looking forward to your response,
Peace
peace Pogressive,
This is soo far your best/reasonable/smartest/open-minded post i have ever read from you. :handshake:
Let the real debate begin : :bravo:
Quote from: quickduck on September 07, 2009, 06:02:56 PM
Peace belH
this one is easy, let the cheerleader captain answer : No we count 12 full moons/not months between 2 summer solstices. And eventually skip counting the 13th full moon/not months to keep in sync with seasons.
i don't agree , look for any arabic text with the word "ma3doodaat" in it. then ask any arabic speaker to tell you how many does "ma3doodat" in that context means.
if i tell you that your days are COUNTED/ma3doodat, it means that there's something you should worry about.
ايام عمرك معدودةCongratulations...The above ENGLISH Words in your post are the TRUE Translation of the Arabic sentence above.
:bravo:
:brickwall: why arguing otherwise...Apparently you Agree to the Meaning of Maddodat to be COUNTED.
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2009, 04:39:46 AM
Although "Babylon" is not a dictioary to search for classical meanings, but the result search for "أياما معدودات " is "A few days", because it's still the used meaning. Try it for yourself on tis link:
http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English/
Samia, I copied the following arabic words:
ايام عمرك معدودة
Then I paste them in your above link to translate. The following are the results:
"Your age days are numbered"
Not only me who thinks that Maddodat = Numbered and not FEW nor 3 to 10.
Peace Ayman,
I really liked your article and think it is the best example of how to observe abstinence as prescribed by the Qur'an that I have heard so far.
From what I understand, if it says to abstain two 'shahr', we would abstain from the first full moon and end on the next full moon. The only question I have is that if shahr = full moon, why does the Qur'an mention the word consecutive to describe the two full moons in 4:92 and 58:4. If the word consecutive wasn't there, we would get the same meaning.
If shahr = month, then the word consecutive would make a difference because it is possible to fast two months that aren't consecutive. I don't see any way you can fast two full moons that aren't consecutive. I am just wondering because it is hard for me to accept that the word contribute to the meaning of these verses.
Peace all,
When comparing two things, both should have the same attributes.
Now, God is comparing the Night of Decree against 1000 Shahar:
97:3 The Night of Decree is better than one thousand Shahar.
97:3 ليلة القدر خير من ألف شهر
Thus, if the Night is a period of time, then the Shahar has to be a measurable Period of Time and NOT A Beautiful Image.
Therefore, Shahar CANNOT BE a FULL MOON Image but a MONTH.
Peace
Peace all
In setting up a calendar that will fit what the Quran advocates we need to follow the fitra (ways) that
Allah has set up for Nature, and they do follow a luni-solar calendar.
Another commandment is to listen to what is said and follow what is best, that fits in the many definitions
of the word shahar, of course, words can be overloaded with more than one meaning, and one of the
meaning of shahar is month, but how can you best measure shahar to obey the natural "fitra" of Allah on Earth?
Surely a Calendar that has no regard for the real seasons is not realistic.
We need a realistic calendar, that will also fit the meaning of the word ramadan, that will make sense logically
and scientifically (the Quran is a reasonable and intelligent and wise book) etc...
So I think the approach was sound, and we have a good work done, so instead of trying to keep on debunking,
I propose to the nay-sayers who are stuck in their blind traditions (and that is their test), to help in refining it, and making sure
it fits even better within the natural framework of seasons that we witness and that the Quran talks about at length, and that
cannot be accounted for with a purely only lunar calendar.
Quote from: belH on September 09, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
Peace all,
When comparing two things, both should have the same attributes.
Now, God is comparing the Night of Decree against 1000 Shahar:
97:3 The Night of Decree is better than one thousand Shahar.
97:3 ليلة القدر خير من ألف شهر
Thus, if the Night is a period of time, then the Shahar has to be a measurable Period of Time and NOT A Beautiful Image.
Therefore, Shahar CANNOT BE a FULL MOON Image but a MONTH.
Peace
Peace :
Absolutely true .
Bananas can be compared with Bananas but not with donkeys in any way.
Shahro Ramadhan al dhii unzila fihil Quran . Was the Quran revealed IN THE MOON
It is the month of Ramadhan (Time period) in which Quran was revealed not on the Stones of the Moon.
Actually unfortunately common sense is very uncommon.
Regards
Peace all,
Quote from: theNabster on September 09, 2009, 04:12:31 AM
Now how could you explain fasting nearest to the North Pole where daylights can either be inexistent or last months?
and When you are ready to be tested say I Believe ...
Fast involves seeing dawns and sunsets;
Those living in constant day or night never see the white thread of dawn or the sunset -- they never fast.
Quote from: Meteora on September 09, 2009, 07:52:47 PM
..Begin?
Are you kidding?
Hasn't it been established? The scorching hot moon won since the first few posts were made.
Established is that this is the easiest to refute; taken from the first few posts...
Quote from: ayman on November 21, 2004, 12:57:29 PM
The restriction full-moons is counting a period spanning four full-moons starting with the full-moon of scorching heat/"ramadan". During that period, hunting wildlife is restricted and the gathering of the "7ajj"/debate takes place.
Right, seems the only animal the above restriction protects is wild pigs?
(http://www.texashuntlodge.com/images/wild-pigs.jpg)
After a gestation period of 112 - 115 days a litter of 3 - 12 piglets is born in the spring.
The young are suckled for about 12 weeks (i.e. solstice) before they are completely weaned onto food.
Summer Solstice June 21, 2008
July 17, 2008 hot moon restricted #1 hot moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
19:30 0.4 122.2 1.00
(http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/2008/jul/hur-dolly-20080723-ir-loop.gif)
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/index.php?report=hazards&year=2008&month=jul#tropical
Bertha was the longest-lived July Atlantic tropical storm when it entered its 16th day on July 19. The second longest-lived July tropical storm was Storm Number 2 in 1960, lasting just over 12 days (Associated Press/BBC News).
Aug 16, 2008 hot moon restricted #219:10 1.8 107.8 1.00
Sep 14, 2008 hot moon restricted #319:10 14.5 106.2 1.00
Oct 14, 2008 hot moon restricted #419:10 22.1 90.6 1.00
(http://www.texashuntlodge.com/images/arabian_oryx.jpg)
The Arabian Oryx males reach sexual maturity at age 18 months; females as young as 12 months. The gestation period for an Arabian Oryx is 8 to 8 1/2 months and they typically give birth to 1 offspring at a time. The breeding season is all year, though heavy rains stimulate females to come into heat within a week.
(http://www.texashuntlodge.com/images/afghanurials.gif)
In their native habitat, mating season begins in September, where Afghan Urial Rams will select 4-5 ewes, who will give birth to one or two lambs after 5 months of gestation. That makes February when they are born after the restriction is lifted.
(http://www.texashuntlodge.com/images/axis.jpg)
Another feature of axis is that, being a tropical deer, they do not follow a seasonal rut. Axis Bucks can be found in hard horn and in velvet at the same time any time in the year, which also means that fawning can occur in any month.
http://www.texashuntlodge.com/images/Eland_family.jpg
The Eland diet consists of mostly grass, and they flourish in the Texas Hill Country environment. The Eland are gregarious and very gentle for a wild animal. They tend to breed year-round in the United States and their Gestation Period is 8 1/2 months.
American Bison ? a favorite served at a local restaurant when I visit Fermi Lab...
(http://ed.fnal.gov/trc_new/sciencelines_online/sp_smr98/graphics/buffalo.jpeg)
Mating season begins in July and can run through September. The female gives birth to one calf after about nine months (i.e. April, May, June).
In the mean time while half the globe fasts; those living south of the equator are free to gorge all day ? especially in Buenos Aires Argentina renowned throughout the world for its exquisite beef.
(http://www.hotelsbycity.net/blog/int_argentina_buenos-aires/files/2007/06/asado.jpg)
Perhaps "travel" south of the equator skip the fasting altogether like the full moons.
Peace
Peace,
There are always exceptions.
In all "civilized" countries, there are in place hunting restrictions in certain periods of the year to protect
wild game, and by the way animals do adapt too, if you allow them a window of opportunity.
The solar calendar takes into account the tally of the seasons so that we keep track of the seasons.
Again the Quran was revealed in the Middle East so when it talks about when it refers to the time
co-ordinate then (i.e. Jerusalem time in my view).
In the south hemisphere they will adjust and fast in their summer.
In the North Pole, they can choose to fast in sync with say Medinah, this will then be a shura ijtihad matter like the sectarian ulemah
resolved it, same with other places where it is impossible to witness the first full moon after the solar solstice.
But we are not there yet, far from it.
Quote from: Q_student on September 10, 2009, 02:01:23 AM
Peace :
Absolutely true .
Bananas can be compared with Bananas but not with donkeys in any way.
Shahro Ramadhan al dhii unzila fihil Quran . Was the Quran revealed IN THE MOON
It is the month of Ramadhan (Time period) in which Quran was revealed not on the Stones of the Moon.
Actually unfortunately common sense is very uncommon.
Regards
Absolutly true !! months can be compared to months and NIGHTS have to be compard to nights.
the night of measure = night of ramadhan full moon = night in which the coran has been descended, IS BETTER than 1000 other nights = 1000 of other full moons nights.
YOU GOT IT ! Great !!
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 10, 2009, 03:11:21 AM
Absolutly true !! months can be compared to months and NIGHTS have to be compard to nights.
the night of measure = night of ramadhan full moon = night in which the coran has been descended, IS BETTER than 1000 other nights = 1000 of other full moons nights.
YOU GOT IT ! Great !!
Salam
Shahr is night or Moon ?
Your logic goes something like this little knowledge of an ignorant teachers who told the students "HEN means Darkness". One of those student was memorising this meaning at home. When his father heard ,father told the son that HEN is the name of a domestic bird.It is not DARKNESS.
Next day the child told the teacher that HEN does not mean Darkness but it is a domestic bird. Now teacher had his own Logic saying " When the hen spreads its feather ,is there not darkness below the feathers ?" The student said "yes it is".The teacher said "It means HEN is Darkness"
Use common sense.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on September 10, 2009, 03:27:31 AM
Shahr is night or Moon ?
Your logic goes something like this little knowledge of an ignorant teachers who told the students "HEN means Darkness". One of those student was memorising this meaning at home. When his father heard ,father told the son that HEN is the name of a domestic bird.It is not DARKNESS.
Next day the child told the teacher that HEN does not mean Darkness but it is a domestic bird. Now teacher had his own Logic saying " When the hen spreads its feather ,is there not darkness below the feathers ?" The student said "yes it is".The teacher said "It means HEN is Darkness"
Use common sense.
Regards
night = time period between sunset and sunrise
Moon = Earth's only natural satellite and the fifth largest satellite in the Solar System.
full moon = a lunar phase that occurs when the Moon is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun.
Now , full moon = the most obvious phase of the moon = marker = shahr.
so please stop going in circles ! we've already discussed this 111 pages ago. if you dont agree, it's your problem...
P.S : No one in this thread has said nor understand that "shahr " is the "moon", except YOU. so whether you are lying or you cannot read !
Peace
Quote from: quickduck on September 10, 2009, 04:48:44 AM
night = time period between sunset and sunrise
Moon = Earth's only natural satellite and the fifth largest satellite in the Solar System.
full moon = a lunar phase that occurs when the Moon is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun.
Now , full moon = the most obvious phase of the moon = marker = shahr.
so please stop going in circles ! we've already discussed this 111 pages ago. if you dont agree, it's your problem...
P.S : No one in this thread has said nor understand that "shahr " is the "moon", except YOU. so whether you are lying or you cannot read !
Peace
What is Shahro Ramdhan then ? If Shar is not moon .
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on September 10, 2009, 04:57:45 AM
What is Shahro Ramdhan then ? If Shar is not moon .
Regards
Read from page 1
Peace
Quote from: quickduck on September 10, 2009, 05:21:00 AM
Read from page 1
Peace
This is called "Lie has no memory"
Which phrase and word you and Ayman have been translating as "Full Scorching Moon"?
I am sure you will run and avoid as Ayman has been doing in certain other discussions.
Regards
Slow down a bit have you ever heard of the atomic clock? have you ever heard of the USA Navel Observatory?
How about GPS satelite or astronomy for that matter. One of the problems that we face in our community is our
backward thinking. THE POSITIONS OF THE CELESTIAL BODIES CAN BE CACULATED TO THE MINUTE. The new moon appeared at 6:02 am thursday the 20th of August therefore the first of Ramadan began friday the 21st. We have no problem using a newspaper or some other source to find out sunrise or sunset but we forget that the same applies to
all the heavenly bodies.
Peace
Peace all,
for those who wish to carry on following the sectarian way of fasting, be my guest.
Jesus came to bani israeel to ease some of the burden of the laws of the torah, and i believe so
Mohamed (extended to all of humanity).
You wish to make matters harder for yourself and Mankind, fine, your accounting is with Allah who, as
He said to the People of the Book "...do not exaggerate in your deen..."...
Now I guarantee, that if the Ulamaa of the Sunna and Ijmaa gathered in the Azhar mosque and decided
with the approval of the so called "muslim" governments particularly Saudi Arabia, and the blessing of some
powers that be (I won't cite these lest I risk being in trouble as this is a public forum), so if they decided that:
let us change the calendar to a luni-solar one, and use the first full moon after the summer solstice as being the start
of the calendar, and all the rest of it, with the only reason that it is more convenient, you will align yourself like little sheep that you are, because you do not follow the truth, but what you are told, you do not use your brain, but use Tabari, Shafie, the other scholars and all the other Khalifs past's Brains who made the decisions for you in years past.
You are the cattle...
No amount of evidence will convince you, you do not follow one God, but many gods, the gods who manipulate your views...
Quote from: Q_student on September 10, 2009, 05:29:05 AM
This is called "Lie has no memory"
Which phrase and word you and Ayman have been translating as "Full Scorching Moon"?
I am sure you will run and avoid as Ayman has been doing in certain other discussions.
Regards
LMAO :rotfl:
Follow quickduck's advice...
Quote from: quickduck on September 10, 2009, 05:21:00 AM
Read from page 1
To make it easy for you in case you are to lazy to read or cannot read at all: 'shahr ramadan' has been translated as 'full moon of scorching heat' by Ayman...
*sigh*.. QS... :nope:
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 10, 2009, 08:24:55 AM
for those who wish to carry on following the sectarian way of fasting, be my guest.
What you are referring as the sectarian way of fasting is the right way of fasting which is in synch with the Qur?an. Your way of fasting is the same as Ayman?s way of fasting which is unquranic. What you have demonstrated is a blind following another blind.
Quote from: theNabster on September 10, 2009, 08:24:55 AM
?because you do not follow the truth, but what you are told, you do not use your brain, but use Tabari, Shafie, the other scholars and all the other Khalifs past's Brains who made the decisions for you in years past.
Your truth = Ayman?s truth = FALSEHOOD
Ayman tells you to jump, and you say how high ? miserable decision/judgment indeed.
Your brain = Ayman?s Brain = Empty vessel - less than a bird brain. Even a bird would detect this simple falsehood.
You use quickduck (quack, quack) and Ayman as your scholar ? They are making decision for you.
Quote from: Amouna on September 09, 2009, 10:25:31 PM
From what I understand, if it says to abstain two 'shahr', we would abstain from the first full moon and end on the next full moon. The only question I have is that if shahr = full moon, why does the Qur'an mention the word consecutive to describe the two full moons in 4:92 and 58:4. If the word consecutive wasn't there, we would get the same meaning.
If shahr = month, then the word consecutive would make a difference because it is possible to fast two months that aren't consecutive. I don't see any way you can fast two full moons that aren't consecutive. I am just wondering because it is hard for me to accept that the word contribute to the meaning of these verses.
peace
Unfortunately, the English translation for the word
"Muttatabeainne" as consective is not very accurate.
the root is
Ta ba ain, which is
"tabiae" the correct meaning of this root is , to follow , walking behind, succession of one to another,and when you have succession of one to another that can also mean to convey as consective.
If the translator has preconceived "shahareen" as two months, then he will always choose consective for Muttattabeainne, but it is actually conveying ,
Start Fasting after seeing a shahar, and follow it up to the next/second shahar.
This command is ensuring, That you start your fast only with the shahar using it as a marker, so that you do not make a mistake in counting, and then finish it up when you see the next shahar (full moon)
I hope it helps.
siki
Peace,
Quote from: siki on September 10, 2009, 05:39:24 PM
Start Fasting after seeing a shahar, and follow it up to the next/second shahar.
This command is ensuring, That you start your fast only with the shahar using it as a marker, so that you do not make a mistake in counting, and then finish it up when you see the next shahar (full moon)
I hope it helps.
siki[/color]
Helps clearly
see that all these verses are NOT applicable for blind men/women according to hot moon illusion...
2:185 ?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it
2:226 For those who swear away from their women, waiting four months?
2:234 ?they wait with themselves four months, and ten
4:92 ?and who killed a believer mistakenly, so freeing a believing neck
?so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other
58:4... so who did not find, so fasting two months following each other (continuous)
Quote from: theNabster on September 10, 2009, 08:24:55 AM
Peace all,
for those who wish to carry on following the sectarian way of fasting, be my guest.
Jesus came to bani israeel to ease some of the burden of the laws of the torah, and i believe so
Mohamed (extended to all of humanity).
You wish to make matters harder for yourself and Mankind, fine, your accounting is with Allah who, as
He said to the People of the Book "...do not exaggerate in your deen..."...
Now I guarantee, that if the Ulamaa of the Sunna and Ijmaa gathered in the Azhar mosque and decided
with the approval of the so called "muslim" governments particularly Saudi Arabia, and the blessing of some
powers that be (I won't cite these lest I risk being in trouble as this is a public forum), so if they decided that:
let us change the calendar to a luni-solar one, and use the first full moon after the summer solstice as being the start
of the calendar, and all the rest of it, with the only reason that it is more convenient, you will align yourself like little sheep that you are, because you do not follow the truth, but what you are told, you do not use your brain, but use Tabari, Shafie, the other scholars and all the other Khalifs past's Brains who made the decisions for you in years past.
You are the cattle...
No amount of evidence will convince you, you do not follow one God, but many gods, the gods who manipulate your views...
28:55 واذا سمعوا اللغو اعرضوا عنه وقالوا لنا اعمالنا ولكم اعمالكم سلام عليكم لانبتغي
الجاهلين
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 10, 2009, 01:18:24 AM
Another commandment is to listen to what is said and follow what is best,
Peace,
The precondition for this commandment is all involved in the discussion are believers. The big question is: are you, Ayman, quickduck, and all who follow you are believers or not. If you are believers or even muslims then why don't you all accept the challenge i gave you. Because you know the outcome is a defeat for you. And this negates you all as believers.
Quote from: theNabster on September 10, 2009, 01:18:24 AM
So I think the approach was sound, and we have a good work done,
The approach is one of the worst in the history of mankind and work done is misleading. Of course it is good for satan but not for humans. You don't have clue as to what a good approach is.
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 08, 2009, 09:43:36 PM
What if my children read the site? We should always correct our mistakes publicly in the same way that we give our opinion publicly. As we are now people of the book we bear a heavy burden to reveal it to people. The god has surrounded us all and at the end we can only be saved by his mercy. May the god help Eid, Farida, Guest, Q_Student and help us all for we were once like them.
Yes, you will mislead your children. You try to cover-up your mistakes! This is clearly evident in your posts.
Just worry about your own neck. You need not worry about us. You really do need to worry about yourself.
Peace guest,
You have no clue what you are talking about.
The appreciation of my islam and my state of belief is between me and Allah.
Unlike you I will not dare to make comments on yours.
You are indeed an extremist as you are quick to condemn.
Why do you think Allah most of the time refers to the Believers in the past? (Ya ayooha alladhina amanoo)
Why do you think Allah never refers to the Muslims in the past tense?
I do not agree with Ayman's lack of diplomacy towards you, but since you are singling me out, this is slandering
and I will not take it.
Beware, perchance I am a better Muslim and I am closer to Allah than you ever will be...
Quote from: guest on September 10, 2009, 04:07:34 PM
Peace,
Your truth = Ayman?s truth = FALSEHOOD
Ayman tells you to jump, and you say how high ? miserable decision/judgment indeed.
Your brain = Ayman?s Brain = Empty vessel - less than a bird brain. Even a bird would detect this simple falsehood.
You use quickduck (quack, quack) and Ayman as your scholar ? They are making decision for you.
one off topic question : How old are you ?
Holy eff you guys...keep it up...actually, this thread will be locked in a few minutes...lol (actually I don't know)
Eid/Rex/Noob/whatever (I guess you're the devout anti-19 spam-a-whole-lot-of-numbers-using-apostatesofislam-website-and-forget-my-username-and/or-password-every-other-week *inhales* freeminder) I was being sarcastic when I said Ayman won, though this is basically his thread. No one should have posted after his long first posts which I'm sure not even half the people read (who the crap would?)
And LMAO @ guest saying "coran".....WTF??!?!?!?!? :rotfl: :rotfl: :bravo:
Peace guest,
I am sorry to have offended you... you did escalate the "offense" though by bringing in Satan,
and non-muslim, non-believer accusations, a trait very typical of the violent extremists...
All prophets came and challenged the status quo.
Jesus was hated by the organised rabbinate (and his messengership cut short), and so were the other prophets before him with the organised religions of their day, why, because humans have a tendency to grab for themselves what Allah has bestowed
them.
So with nowadays Ulamah, they do not want us to understand the Quran on our own, they want us to use them
as filters, so they can manipulate us and keep the message to themselves to accommodate their patrons (guess who).
The Ulamah in Sunni Islam have replaced the Ayatollah in Shia and Priests in Christiandom and Rabbis in Judaism, and
Shamans in Witchcraft.
If you are not getting this, then I am sorry, you are in deep trouble...
9:31 They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides All?h (by
obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without
being ordered by All?h), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while
they were commanded [in the Taur?t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to
worship none but One Il?h (God - All?h) L? il?ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but
He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with
Him)."
but you are still a Muslim, just that you are in great danger of losing your faith, because you are putting your trust
in people who do not deserve it.
I for one, never ever will follow any human, including Ayman that you accuse me of.
Allah has blessed me with some intellect, the ability to read arabic, english and french, and a logical and rational mind,
and I trust the events in my life (I am mature enough), and the signs I have witnessed have given me enough experience to appreciate and be careful and measured in what I am talking about.
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 11, 2009, 09:03:28 AM
I am sorry to have offended you... you did escalate the "offense" though by bringing in Satan,
and non-muslim, non-believer accusations, a trait very typical of the violent extremists...
You do not call this satanic ?you do not follow one God, but many gods, the gods who manipulate your views...?
Please tell me who follow many gods?
Your accusation is non conditional, whereas my accusation is conditional. And there is a big difference between them, if you only knew.
Peace to all, I see messages of people are as the title of the subjet very HOT.
As we have seen we have the pro's and con's about Ayman's definition of when fasting as per Quran alone. Indeed it is an answer.
My question is for the cons:
When do you fast by using Quran alone?
Do you need an extra source to define it (fasting month)?
How long do you fast by Quran alone?
This is not meant to offense any point of view, but to go further in the debate.
best regards
Peace guest,
What is more conditional than sticking to Allah's Quran?
and in any event we, like any other beings in this universe are submitted to Allah unconditionally,
humans and jinns having been endowed with free will are required by Allah as a test, a condition
they agreed to upon their creation, in exchange for this endowment, to acknowledge this willingly
mentally, with their hearts and in their deeds.
To help them out, Allah sends Messengers with Messages.
The current Message to the whole of US is the Quran, no if's, no but's , no extra's, no less, no more...
What we need to know and do is all contained in the Quran, fulfilling Allah's will and the Prophet's work
is being guided by the Quran.
Allah takes it upon Himself to explain it to us through Signs in our environment, i.e. it is a work in progress
until the Day of Judgment.
And this is what the Ayat in my Signature clearly says.
Now stop mocking about guest, if you want to have Yousuf Alquardawy or Ali Khameini decide for you fine by me,
but do not try and impose it on me, oki?
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 09, 2009, 02:22:46 AMYes, I did change my mind on code 19 after figuring out that it was all random, could not find any consistency, you pointed out some like flipping verses and did a lot of my own work looked into thoroughly was finding multiples everywhere which was the main reason I came back with Holiday, Pseudo, and Eid to dispel all that nonsense which you can easily search my user names and see that most of my posts were to refute the nineteen obsessed...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3466;sa=showPosts
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3633;sa=showPosts
What you do Ayman when proven wrong instead of repenting and make your mistakes right, you deny clear evidence, attack the messengers that brought you the contradicting news about your hot moon; you cannot let go of your ego which is the same that infected nineteen cult. You belittle people, build a straw man/woman call them ignorant, say they babbling, lying, etc., all one has to do is search your posts and you even stoop low as in the above PM example not telling truth what actually transpired. Tell people about your PM to me and what you requested about my work/posts in the 19 forum.
Yes you did good work on debunking Code 19 numerology. But after the PM you didn?t recant and correct what you posted in colors and great fanfare here on this sticky thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597669.msg190690#msg190690
Someone reading the above post and then finding no correction from you on the thread might be misguided.
I was proven wrong many times and I even proved myself wrong many times without anyone telling me. For example, right here on this thread, I have corrected my understanding of ?hajj? and there is a fierce debate (mild compared to this one) with Wakas who now holds my previous view.
It is the same thing here. I used to blindly believe the traditional timing exactly like you and then I believed in a fixed 30 day month as Anwar believes. I was defending that ?shahr? means 30 day month when a Sunni fellow pointed to me the fact that one of the meanings of ?shahr? is moon. Indeed, when I looked in the dictionary, I found the meaning of full-moon right there and this was the breakthrough. I didn?t tell the guy ?your #%&* moon? and dismissed it. This would be the ignorant ego-driven thing to do since the poor fellow didn?t travel back in time and conspire with the dictionary author against me. Knowledgeable people know not to dismiss something without researching. Letting the ego take over is a sign of ignorance. Same thing with the word ?ramadhan? and you making fun of the meaning of ?hot? or ?scorching? since if you took 1 minute to check a Classical Arabic dictionary, you would have seen that it is the PRIMARY meaning of the word. The god doesn?t choose his words haphazardly so you are in fact making fun of the god?s words.
As for saying that you are lying or saying irrelevant info, please look at your own words below:
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 09, 2009, 02:22:46 AMOn this hot moon topic you are more lost, obsessed, and illogical than those infected with fitna of 74:31.
Hopefully you'll explain to your children why people don't fast who live in cloudy weather or the blind.
Your claim above is a demonstration of what I am talking about. Please copy and paste where I said: ?people don't fast who live in cloudy weather or the blind?. What do you say about someone who consistently misrepresents what you said? You would say that he is either deliberately lying or has not understood what you said and is therefore giving irrelevant info. I would suggest that if you want to talk about what I said then just copy and paste it or put it in a quote.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 09, 2009, 02:22:46 AMHopefully they'll see a picture of the globe that it is the same night in both Hemispheres and you won't call them ignorant or accuse them of babbling and lying when they ask you to explain why Qur'an was descended in a night not TWO Nights and TWO Ramadans.
1. Ha.-Mim
2 By the manifest Book (this Qur'an) that makes things clear.
3 That We descended it (this Qur'an) down on a blessed night, that We are ever warning.
Please copy and paste where I accused you of lying or babbling when you said what you are saying above.
Do you know of any night where people suddenly stop killing each other and there is zero crime in the world? What is this night and how is this night peaceful then? You need to ponder on the signs of the god with the objective of learning, not with the objective of debunking me.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 09, 2009, 02:22:46 AMAll best wishes to you and your children; may they grow up reading the Book, attain wisdom, and know the truth.
Same to you and your family and may the god have mercy on us all.
PS: Here is something that I quickly put together and that I hope you would find beneficial:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599057.0
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother Wakas,
Quote from: Wakas on September 09, 2009, 08:49:03 AM
I think the obvious thing to do would be for those who disagree with the "full moon of scorching heat" etc theory, is to write a clear and detailed rebuttal, as an article. Ideally, with an alternative.
These things are not difficult to do, but it takes a special kind of person to do them. We shall see.
Thank you for your wise and timely advice. One would think that writing an article proving the traditional timing according to the great reading would be a piece of cake. After all, the traditional timing has been instituted and unchallenged for almost 1400 years, so one would think that it must have a solid base in the great reading.
As it turns out, this is not the case. Even the staunchest defenders of the traditional timing admit that it is based on what some people arbitrarily decided to do or not to do a long time ago and cannot be reconstructed based on the great reading. It is an indisputable fact that if the sectarian timing got changed by the majority or one lost track of it, then like all falsehood it will be lost. So good luck writing an article, they are going to need it.
On the other hand, my article was surprisingly easy to write once I got in the right direction that it should be based 100% on the god?s signs and not on manmade calendars. It sends shivers down my spine when I think about how easy it was even after 1400 years of corruption. This great reading could not have come from anyone other than the god. This is very scary.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 11:26:33 AMmy 'understand/not understand/need clarification' lists:
(Note for the reader: these are only things I understand/dont understand from Ayman's article - they dont necessarily represent my own position).
First off, here are the things I understand:
- 'shahr Ramadan' = 'full moon of scorching heat'
- this full moon appears after the summer solstice
- the Quran was sent down during the night appearance of this full moon (laylatul qadr)
- the year is solar: we should count 12 full moons in each of them, hence the calendar is luni-solar
- the crescents help us for the timing of the hajj, but also the fast, since it takes 10 days for the moon to go from its full moon phase into its crescent phase - the fasting and the hajj both take 10 days each.
- as exaplained above, the fasting is for 'ayyaman madoodatin', which means 'few days'. As per a hint from 7:142, one can conclude that fasting is for 10 days.
- the count of the full moons in a year is 12. Although 13 might appear in some years, they shall not be counted, as per the command in 9:36.
Thank you for your excellent summary. You actually did a much better job than me in explaining in better and simpler terms.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 11:26:33 AM- the restricted full-moons are cleverly picked from Summer to Autumn, since this is when many female animals are pregnant, and to kill one of them would mean to kill their potential offspring.
The timing has to do with protecting young animals as I explained to Quickduck here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220546#msg220546
The key is about protecting young animals when human hunters pose the highest risk. Most animals give birth in late spring ? early summer. The mortality follows a bathtub curve. Right after they are born, the rate is high because of disease and birth defects and other predators. After a few weeks when they are old enough to venture away from their place of birth, human hunters become the highest risk until fall when they have grown enough to fend for themselves. So this would coincide with a hunting restriction period from early summer to early fall.
Another consideration is that humans who rely on hunting for sustenance can easily find other sources of food during the summer when fruits and vegetables and livestock is more plentiful.
In fact, there is a relation with ?ramadhan? and an inhumane method of hunting. The ancient Arabs used to hunt during the hottest time of the year by using dogs that are kept fresh and well hydrated and can then chase the prey until its feet burn in the heat of the desert and becomes an easy catch. This method called ?taramadh? is described in Classical Arabic dictionaries in one of the entries related to ?ramadhan?.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 11:26:33 AMThings that I dont understand/need clarification for:
- PERF 558 (a link with the contents of this documents and it's validity would be good)
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 11:26:33 AM- a clear and thorough exaplanation of why 17:12 and 10:5 make tell us that the year is solar and that the calendar is to be luni-solar.
10:5 talks about both the sun and the moon (sun is mentioned first) and then says they are used to know the number of years so this is an indication of a luni-solar system. 17:12 further confirms that the year is primarily solar by saying that the daylight and night (both are a result of the sun and not the moon) are used to know the number of years.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 11:26:33 AMAlso, a good reason why we should count from solstice to solstice and the command thereof in the Quran. Why not from winter solstice to winter soltice, or from autumn equinox to the next, etc.? Why not count the days and have the lunar months are markers?
We can?t count the days and use lunar months as a marker because 17:12 doesn?t mention the moon at all. Also, there is nothing inherent in a lunar month that marks the year. One can make a lunar calendar with a year consisting of 10, 11, 13, 14, or 1000 lunar months, so lunar months by themselves are not markers to begin with. In the traditional calendar, the months have been accumulating continuously since its inception. Recycling the names (which are meaningless anyway) every 12 lunar cycles is not counting 12. This is why the traditional calendar is dependent on month 1. The count hasn?t stopped since month 1. On the other hand, with the correct understanding of counting 12 in a 17:12 solstice year, the 12 are independently counted and are not dependent on the previous 12.
The equinoxes cannot be used because using the criteria of daylight and night in 17:12 the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year. The choice can only be between the two solstices, the summer or winter solstice. The marker ?shahr ramadhan? points to the summer solstice. The meaning of ?ramadh? is closely tied to the summer solstice. Here is an entry from Lisan Al-Arab:
والحَصى رَمِضٌ، والرِّيحُ ساكنةٌ، والظِّلُّ مُعْتَدِلُ
?The sand is scorching (?ramadh?), the wind is still, and
the shadow is vertical?
Also, here is another entry relating the sun?s behavior around the summer solstice to ?ramadh?:
قال ذو الرمة يصف جُنْدَباً: مُعْرَوْرِياً رَمَضَ الرَّضْراض يَرْكُضُهُ، والشَّمْسُ حَيْرى لها في الجَوّ تَدْوِيمُ كأَنها لا تمضي أي قد رَكِبَ حَرَّ الرَّضْراض، والرَّمَضُ: شدة الحر، مصدر رَمِضَ يَرمَضُ رَمَضاً،
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 11:26:33 AMI have noticed something very interesting from your article, which might seem insignificant at first, but with the right connection to the Bible, it has some significance:
The first full-moon of the restricted full-moons (the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan") is for abstinence while the remaining three full moons are for the debate. This gives people three opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate."
(note for the reader: ayman changed his definition of 'hajj' from 'debate' to 'feast')
Connection to: Exodus 23:14 "Three times a year you shall keep/observe a 'hag' to Me.
Yes, this is a very interesting observation. Moreover, the biggest ?hag?/feast of the people of the book was Hag Sukkot, which takes place on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. In other words, it coincides precisely with the last inviolable full-moon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Amouna,
Quote from: Amouna on September 09, 2009, 10:25:31 PMI really liked your article and think it is the best example of how to observe abstinence as prescribed by the Qur'an that I have heard so far.
From what I understand, if it says to abstain two 'shahr', we would abstain from the first full moon and end on the next full moon. The only question I have is that if shahr = full moon, why does the Qur'an mention the word consecutive to describe the two full moons in 4:92 and 58:4. If the word consecutive wasn't there, we would get the same meaning.
If shahr = month, then the word consecutive would make a difference because it is possible to fast two months that aren't consecutive. I don't see any way you can fast two full moons that aren't consecutive. I am just wondering because it is hard for me to accept that the word contribute to the meaning of these verses.
Thank you for your kind comments. The answer to your question is found by looking at the other occurrences where we are asked to do things according to the full-moon/?shahr?. For example, in the case of the waiting periods, the woman has to wait from the present time until the full-moons have passed. This makes the waiting period variable based on when the last full-moon occurred. The same goes for 9:2 where ?the roaming of the land? starts now until four full-moons have passed. On the other hand, in the case of 4:92 and 58:4, the abstinence is a fixed period between any two full-moons following one another. So unlike the other cases, one doesn?t have to start fasting now and wait for two full-moons to pass.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
The equinoxes cannot be used because using the criteria of daylight and night in 17:12 the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year. The choice can only be between the two solstices, the summer or winter solstice. The marker ?shahr ramadhan? points to the summer solstice. The meaning of ?ramadh? is closely tied to the summer solstice. Here is an entry from Lisan Al-Arab:
We know Ayman was ignorant of scientific facts/knowledge up until recently when we provided him with accurate scientific data disproving his Ramadan theory. Now, he does not get the benefit of doubt when it comes scientific facts related to his Ramadan theory. Any incorrect fact produced by him will be rightfully considered as premeditated act of misleading. Let's analyzed Ayman's above statement.
He says ?the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year.? He intentionally omitted the fact that the interval between two solstice is also half year. Picking one solstice is the same as picking one equinox e.g. March equinox. He is intentionally trying to mislead people. Please beware. There are numerous intentional error in Ayman's posts (today). I wonder why quickduck and others who claims to be independent minded people is not questioning the misleading errors. Because they do follow Ayman's tradition.
Peace guest,
What you are saying is that Ayman makes mistakes, like all of us. We as his peers owe it to him to correct him, not to debunk him.
You want to debunk him. And your reasons are very clear, to keep your traditions intact, even if they are sending you head first into the hell-fire...
There is no ambiguity in the definition if you consider one solstice only, and the one is the summer solstice, and yes solstices are separated by 6 months as there is one summer solstice and one winter solstice.
The same goes with equinox, one spring equinox and one autumn equinox which are separated by six months.
Peace Nabil,
Quote from: theNabster on September 11, 2009, 06:00:33 PMThere is no ambiguity in the definition if you consider one solstice only, and the one is the summer solstice, and yes solstices are separated by 6 months as there is one summer solstice and one winter solstice.
The same goes with equinox, one spring equinox and one autumn equinox which are separated by six months.
In order for things to be clear, I learned from the great reading that we need to get past the convenient labels that we use and understand in terms of the nature of things. The night is equal to the day twice a year (the equinoxes), on the other hand the longest day/shortest night and longest night/shortest day happen once a year.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thank you for the clarifications and distinctions in your last posts.
Noble
Quote from: guest on September 11, 2009, 04:47:55 PM
Peace,
He says ?the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year.? He intentionally omitted the fact that the interval between two solstice is also half year. Picking one solstice is the same as picking one equinox e.g. March equinox. He is intentionally trying to mislead people. Please beware. There are numerous intentional error in Ayman's posts (today). I wonder why quickduck and others who claims to be independent minded people is not questioning the misleading errors. Because they do follow Ayman's tradition.
1 - i was travelling so i couldn't check latest posts.
2 - i am not questioning any "misleading errors" because you it is YOU the one who can see them.
3- it is not about any two solstices, but about two SUMMER solstices. he explained this too clearly to sister Amouna.
4 - i am not following Ayman's tradition. I agree with him on his so far logical/flawless theory. As long as i see no "misleading errors" in it, i 'll go on agreeing.
5 - you still didn't answer my question , if you don't mind : How old are you ? :offtopic:
salam,
P.S : @ Amouna, :welcome:.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:15:12 AM
Yes you did good work on debunking Code 19 numerology. But after the PM you didn?t recant and correct what you posted in colors and great fanfare here on this sticky thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597669.msg190690#msg190690
Someone reading the above post and then finding no correction from you on the thread might be misguided.
Perhaps re-read above post and the one prior which clearly refutes Bahman's video and removing verses...
Quote from: Holiday on December 31, 2008, 02:35:49 AM
Fact is God has caused some of you to loose your minds in an ocean of digits...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ace4i1osfU&feature=channel_page
0, 1, 2, & 3...
n 123456...n, 123456...n n 6234..., n 123456...n 114 6234..., 123456...n 114 n 6234
Let n = number (1 to infinity) then infinite ch/verse combinations in infinity.
Check out this book based on 1, 9, & 19 (OK so I was bored a bit this evening...lol)
In addition, shows if all verses are used the same claim can be made including even-odd symmetry which God swears by along with prime number totals which is not the case when removing two verses. Anyways, off topic and nice summary in the appendix; I'll consider consolidating all my 100s of posts into one as well.
QuoteI was proven wrong many times and I even proved myself wrong many times without anyone telling me. For example, right here on this thread, I have corrected my understanding of ?hajj? and there is a fierce debate (mild compared to this one) with Wakas who now holds my previous view.
Disagree with both, evidence context 28:27 8/10 hijajin while you have 3 per year. Another time perhaps.
Quote
It is the same thing here. I used to blindly believe the traditional timing exactly like you and then I believed in a fixed 30 day month as Anwar believes. I was defending that ?shahr? means 30 day month when a Sunni fellow pointed to me the fact that one of the meanings of ?shahr? is moon. Indeed, when I looked in the dictionary, I found the meaning of full-moon right there and this was the breakthrough. I didn?t tell the guy ?your #%&* moon? and dismissed it. This would be the ignorant ego-driven thing to do since the poor fellow didn?t travel back in time and conspire with the dictionary author against me. Knowledgeable people know not to dismiss something without researching. Letting the ego take over is a sign of ignorance. Same thing with the word ?ramadhan? and you making fun of the meaning of ?hot? or ?scorching? since if you took 1 minute to check a Classical Arabic dictionary, you would have seen that it is the PRIMARY meaning of the word. The god doesn?t choose his words haphazardly so you are in fact making fun of the god?s words.
Main Entry: scorching
Part of Speech: adjective1
Definition: very hot
Synonyms:
blistering, burning, fiery, hot, searing, sizzling, sweltering
QuoteAs for saying that you are lying or saying irrelevant info, please look at your own words below:
Your claim above is a demonstration of what I am talking about. Please copy and paste where I said: ?people don't fast who live in cloudy weather or the blind?. What do you say about someone who consistently misrepresents what you said? You would say that he is either deliberately lying or has not understood what you said and is therefore giving irrelevant info. I would suggest that if you want to talk about what I said then just copy and paste it or put it in a quote.
Please copy and paste where I accused you of lying or babbling when you said what you are saying above.
author=ayman link=topic=10715.msg62474#msg62474 date=1131673496
In primitive societies public viewing is exactly what they did. Nowadays we have computers, observatories and so on that can help us with the witnessing so "shahada" doesn't have to be physically seeing the scorching full-moon. It is like having eye witnesses, finger prints, and even DNA as evidence that people can witness in the case of a crime and all this is "shahada" (witnessing). Even a blind person who has a highly sensitive hearing ability can witness that a certain person was there through hearing his voice.First you posted above in another thread which can also apply in viewing new moon crescents and now this...
author=ayman link=topic=9188.msg220546#msg220546 date=1252129280
I think that Farida never reviewed a legal contract in her life. If she did then she would have understood the difference between "not obligated to do something" and "cannot do something". According to 2:185 those who witnessed the full-moon should fast. This doesn't mean that those who didn't witness it can't fast. They could fast but they are not oligated to. Even Farida is not obligated to fast if she didn't witness the scorching full-moon but she can fast anyway.Clarify your position if they are applicable or not to blind men and women or if too cloudy to count...
2:185 ?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it
2:226 For those who swear away from their women, waiting four months?
2:234 ?they wait with themselves four months, and ten
4:92 ?and who killed a believer mistakenly, so freeing a believing neck
?so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other
58:4... so who did not find, so fasting two months following each other (continuous)
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
The timing has to do with protecting young animals as I explained to Quickduck here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220546#msg220546
The key is about protecting young animals when human hunters pose the highest risk. Most animals give birth in late spring ? early summer. The mortality follows a bathtub curve. Right after they are born, the rate is high because of disease and birth defects and other predators. After a few weeks when they are old enough to venture away from their place of birth, human hunters become the highest risk until fall when they have grown enough to fend for themselves. So this would coincide with a hunting restriction period from early summer to early fall.
Another consideration is that humans who rely on hunting for sustenance can easily find other sources of food during the summer when fruits and vegetables and livestock is more plentiful.
In fact, there is a relation with ?ramadhan? and an inhumane method of hunting. The ancient Arabs used to hunt during the hottest time of the year by using dogs that are kept fresh and well hydrated and can then chase the prey until its feet burn in the heat of the desert and becomes an easy catch. This method called ?taramadh? is described in Classical Arabic dictionaries in one of the entries related to ?ramadhan?.
1. Post evidence that births correlate and how June 22 - July 20 plus 3 lunar cycles after protects them.
2. It is inhumane to needlessly hunt and kill animals for pleasure/sport; neither the book (Qur'an 24:41,17:44,22:18) or a believer's conscious allows that regardless of the time or season and is not much different than the ideology of NRA (National Rifle Association).
Peace and kindest regards,
- N aka 50
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 12, 2009, 01:26:37 AM
1. Post evidence that births correlate and how June 22 - July 20 plus 3 lunar cycles after protects them.
2. It is inhumane to needlessly hunt and kill animals for pleasure/sport; neither the book (Qur'an 24:41,17:44,22:18) or a believer's conscious allows that regardless of the time or season and is not much different than the ideology of NRA (National Rifle Association).
Peace and kindest regards,
- N aka 50...:)
Peace all,
For your information, Hunting is ONLY prohibited during Hajj, according to Quran.
O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will know who reverences Him while unseen. Whoever transgresses from now on, then he will have a painful retribution.
5:94 يأيها الذين ءامنوا ليبلونكم الله بشيء من الصيد تناله أيديكم ورماحكم ليعلم الله من يخافه بالغيب فمن اعتدى بعد ذلك فله عذاب أليم
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
The above clearly shows that if someone hunts deliberately while he is
restricted, then he will have to sacrifice an equal animal WHEN HE REACHES KABBA--God's Restricted House, which Abraham Built and God ordered Believers to make Hajj to. And that is the only place where Sacrifice should take place, according to Quran.
We are only under restriction when we are in Hajj--see below:
O you who believe, honor your contracts. Made lawful for you are the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you.
You are not permitted to hunt the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
5:1 يأيها الذين ءامنوا أوفوا بالعقود أحلت لكم بهيمة الأنعم إلا ما يتلى عليكم غير محلي الصيد وأنتم حرم إن الله يحكم ما يريد
O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of God, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor
the safety made by the Restricted House; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing.
And when restriction is over, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because
they had barred you from the Restricted Temple; make you aggress. And help each other in piety and righteousness, and do not help each other in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for the retribution of God is severe.
5:2 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تحلوا شعئر الله ولا الشهر الحرام ولا الهدي ولا القلئد ولا ءامين البيت الحرام يبتغون فضلا من ربهم ورضونا وإذا حللتم فاصطادوا ولا يجرمنكم شنءان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام أن تعتدوا وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدون واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب
Peace
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 01:57:34 AM
Peace all,
For your information, Hunting is ONLY prohibited during Hajj, according to Quran.
None of yout quoted verses mentions hajj.
In other words, hajj is during the haram period, therefore while you are in hajj you are during the 7aram period; but not vise-versa.
Maybe you can then deduce the meaning of "wa antum 7urum" and its relation to "hajj".
And how long is hajj period according to quraan?
Hint: 2:197
And how long is the 7aram perid?
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
10:5 talks about both the sun and the moon (sun is mentioned first) and then says they are used to know the number of years so this is an indication of a luni-solar system. 17:12 further confirms that the year is primarily solar by saying that the daylight and night (both are a result of the sun and not the moon) are used to know the number of years.
We can?t count the days and use lunar months as a marker because 17:12 doesn?t mention the moon at all.
Let's analyze Ayman's logic from above quote and draw conclusion:
Ayman is saying: both sun and moon are used to know the number of years (10:5)
Then Ayman says: only sun is used to know the numbers of years (17:12)
If you look at it from the most simplistic mind you would know that these are contradictory statement. A knowledgeable person will not say both X and Y objects are required to do Z and then turn around and say only X is required to do Z. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Only an insane person or a deliberate misleader would do something like this. Worst yet, Ayman is implying that the God is making this contradiction in violation of His own words: No contradiction in Quran.
In a very sneaky way Ayman is trying to discredit Allah. Therefore, please beware of him.
CONCLUSION: Ayman is spreading lies about the God.
Please note that if you use moon to count number of years, you don't face Ayman's contradiction.
The God used Ayman's to expose his own hypocrisy. Thank you Lord, the Great.
Peace guest,
Let us try and avoid name calling, I can be guilty of it too, but it is childish, and it does berate any good conversation.
Allah uses Signs to talk to us, and my understanding is that the Sign of the Year is using the Sun, precisely one revolution
of the Sun around the Earth, this you can do most easily with the Winter Solstice or the Summer Solstice, also
it is a natural event, which synchronises the Seasons, meaning there is a regular pattern to it, and it repeats itself year after year.
This has in fact nothing to do with the Moon.
The moon is used for convenience to subdivide that Solar Year into 12 segments, and the count of 12 full moons is almost in sync
with that.
Allah further says that the number of months in Allah's System is 12, so it does not take a genius to imply that a solar year will
therefore have 12 months.
A month is marked by a full moon, so we use month or full moon as synonyms, interchangeably.
Ramadan is the full moon that appear just after the Solar Solstice.
Count 12 full moons from then, for a long while there will be no intercalatory full moon, the day there is, discount it, but that one only at that very time (that will not be naseei, naseei was when they arbitrary decided that a month was halal or haram, this they cannot as 1st it does not happen for a long time, 2nd it is a natural phenomenon).
All of this is based on clear Signs of simple natural phenomena and counting.
Now if you say an event happened for instance my child was born 120 moons / months ago, you can work out the year and they will be solar years there will be no ambiguity, because 12 full moons = 12 months = 1 solar year.
Whereas in the current system you will not know if your child was born in the spring or the winter, not that maybe it matters for you, but I think that planning for crops harvest and climatology prediction and even body clock issues, it is important.
So we do rely on the gregorian calendar for our day to day lives, and we use the sectarian, moon based calendar for our religious lives,
so what we are basically saying to Allah that deen has a calendar, and everything else has a better more useful workable calendar.
"... And to Allah belongs the best example..." this is mazeed minna alkufr ya akhee, wake up!!!
Quote from: Samia on September 12, 2009, 04:57:01 AM
None of yout quoted verses mentions hajj.
In other words, hajj is during the haram period, therefore while you are in hajj you are during the 7aram period; but not vise-versa.
Maybe you can then deduce the meaning of "wa antum 7urum" and its relation to "hajj".
And how long is hajj period according to quraan?
Hint: 2:197
And how long is the 7aram perid?
Peace all,
Samia, Why cannot you give up your bad habit?
If you choose to refute my argument, please do without confusing others. Stick to the points I raised and chose as Sound supporting Truth from my Lord. To make it easy for you, please answer to the following (Pay close attention to the underline part)
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
The above clearly shows that if someone hunts deliberately while he is restricted, then
he will have to sacrifice an equal animal WHEN HE REACHES KABBA--God's Restricted House, which Abraham Built and God ordered Believers to make Hajj to. And that is the only place where Sacrifice should take place, according to Quran.
Your efforts in trying to Give Up Your Bad Habit will Truly be appreciated.
Peace
Peace all
If Ayman and his followers have some creditability left, please answer this question:
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD MONTH?
Sorry for the big letters, but I want everyone to understand why we are disputing with Ayman and his followers.
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 08:30:00 PM
Peace all
If Ayman and his followers have some creditability left, please answer this question:
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD MONTH?
Sorry for the big letters, but I want everyone to understand why we are disputing with Ayman and his followers.
Can you clarify please,
Are you asking about a term which is equivalent to 30/31/28/29 day period? or a certain specific month (like Jan/Feb/march etc?
siki
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 02:11:29 PM
Peace all,
Samia, Why cannot you give up your bad habit?
Which is? Making you nervous when I expose your misquoting of the quraanic verses, and ignorance of the meaning of what you quote?
Why don't you just answer my question and show where the word hajj is mentioned in these verses?
Or perhaps you think that "7urum" means "hajj"? :nope:
You are just going into circles: mu7rim is a 7ajj; hajj is only a few days, therefore hunting is restricted only for a few days...
Ignoring the mention of restricted "months" / al-ashhur l7urum
Or, I hope you would not translate this into "ashhur that are hajjs " ... :confused:
Quote from: siki on September 12, 2009, 08:50:46 PM
Can you clarify please,
Are you asking about a term which is equivalent to 30/31/28/29 day period? or a certain specific month (like Jan/Feb/march etc?
siki
Peace,
A Month is the period of time that is equal to 1/12 of a year.
My question is
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD MONTH?
Quote from: Samia on September 12, 2009, 09:13:04 PM
Which is? Making you nervous when I expose your misquoting of the quraanic verses, and ignorance of the meaning of what you quote?
Why don't you just answer my question and show where the word hajj is mentioned in these verses?
Or perhaps you think that "7urum" means "hajj"? :nope:
You are just going into circles: mu7rim is a 7ajj; hajj is only a few days, therefore hunting is restricted only for a few days...
Ignoring the mention of restricted "months" / al-ashhur l7urum
Or, I hope you would not translate this into "ashhur that are hajjs " ... :confused:
:rotfl: It is to tough for you to give it up.
I will make it easy for you, what is meaning of the following:
whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba.
:)
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 09:26:49 PM
I will make it easy for you, what is meaning of the following:
whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba.
Still....what makes hunting restricted only during hajj? (which is, according to you, about a week or less). Is "kaaba", as you understand it, restricted to hajj only?
This is why I ask...where is hajj in this verse?
I do not give up just because someone is intimdating me, but I give up when I read some sensible logic.
Quote from: Samia on September 12, 2009, 09:49:03 PM
Still....what makes hunting restricted only during hajj? (which is, according to you, about a week or less). Is "kaaba", as you understand it, restricted to hajj only?
This is why I ask...where is hajj in this verse?
I do not give up just because someone is intimdating me, but I give up when I read some sensible logic.
what is meaning of the following:
whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 12, 2009, 01:26:37 AMMain Entry: scorching
Part of Speech: adjective1
Definition: very hot
Synonyms: blistering, burning, fiery, hot, searing, sizzling, sweltering
So do you think that the god chooses his words in an arbitrary way and that the clear Arabic meaning of the word "ramadhan" doesn't matter. The god could have just as well said "XYZ" or any meaningless label? It is abantantly clear that you cannot understand when "shahr ramadhan" occurs without understanding the key word "ramadhan". This is the minimum required for any understanding.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 12, 2009, 01:26:37 AMauthor=ayman link=topic=10715.msg62474#msg62474 date=1131673496
In primitive societies public viewing is exactly what they did. Nowadays we have computers, observatories and so on that can help us with the witnessing so "shahada" doesn't have to be physically seeing the scorching full-moon. It is like having eye witnesses, finger prints, and even DNA as evidence that people can witness in the case of a crime and all this is "shahada" (witnessing). Even a blind person who has a highly sensitive hearing ability can witness that a certain person was there through hearing his voice.
First you posted above in another thread which can also apply in viewing new moon crescents and now this...
author=ayman link=topic=9188.msg220546#msg220546 date=1252129280
I think that Farida never reviewed a legal contract in her life. If she did then she would have understood the difference between "not obligated to do something" and "cannot do something". According to 2:185 those who witnessed the full-moon should fast. This doesn't mean that those who didn't witness it can't fast. They could fast but they are not oligated to. Even Farida is not obligated to fast if she didn't witness the scorching full-moon but she can fast anyway.
Clarify your position if they are applicable or not to blind men and women or if too cloudy to count...
2:185 ?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it
The first quote is probably an older post of mine. I later realized that there is a difference between "shahad" and "shahad an". The first "shahad" always involves physically witnessing. If you understood my second post then you would have seen that the blind can fast and so can you if it is too cloudy but you wouldn't be obligated to. There is nothing that says that anyone CANNOT fast.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 12, 2009, 01:26:37 AM2:226 For those who swear away from their women, waiting four months?
2:234 ?they wait with themselves four months, and ten
4:92 ?and who killed a believer mistakenly, so freeing a believing neck
?so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other
58:4... so who did not find, so fasting two months following each other (continuous)[/color]
Unlike 2:185, where is the word "witness" in the above?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 12, 2009, 01:26:37 AM1. Post evidence that births correlate and how June 22 - July 20 plus 3 lunar cycles after protects them.
See the following example:
http://wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunting/hunting_dates_and_seasons.htm
Note that hunting season is in the spring or the fall and winter. There is no hunting at all in the summer.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 12, 2009, 01:26:37 AM2. It is inhumane to needlessly hunt and kill animals for pleasure/sport; neither the book (Qur'an 24:41,17:44,22:18) or a believer's conscious allows that regardless of the time or season and is not much different than the ideology of NRA (National Rifle Association).
I agree. However, the hunting restriction is not about killing as a sport it is about killing for food. This is why we are told that we can eat seafood and livestock as an alternative.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 08:30:00 PM
Peace all
If Ayman and his followers have some creditability left, please answer this question:
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD MONTH?
Sorry for the big letters, but I want everyone to understand why we are disputing with Ayman and his followers.
do you mean this month ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Month
As you can see, the english word "month" is a human arbitrary subdivision of the year. it has never been the same 29-30 days in all ancient cultures. There are many types of months, not all of them have the same meaning.
So if you posted this question in BOLD just because you are convinced that month depends EXCLUSIVELEY on the moon, so tell me what do you think about the ? month ? February ?
Is it depending on the moon ?
The Quranic teaching for this , is that we should START counting from obvious markers/events (shahr = full moon = front doors) and stop the count @ 12, within a solar year (don?t you really see that the year is solar ??)
After that, it?s up to you to find a word for the ? time frame ? between two obvious moon markers ??shahar?? .. some call it month , why don?t you ?
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 01:57:34 AMFor your information, Hunting is ONLY prohibited during Hajj, according to Quran.
O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will know who reverences Him while unseen. Whoever transgresses from now on, then he will have a painful retribution.
5:94 يأيها الذين ءامنوا ليبلونكم الله بشيء من الصيد تناله أيديكم ورماحكم ليعلم الله من يخافه بالغيب فمن اعتدى بعد ذلك فله عذاب أليم
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
The above clearly shows that if someone hunts deliberately while he is restricted, then he will have to sacrifice an equal animal WHEN HE REACHES KABBA--God's Restricted House, which Abraham Built and God ordered Believers to make Hajj to. And that is the only place where Sacrifice should take place, according to Quran.
There are several problems in your logic (or more appropriately, lack thereof).
1. The first problem is that you ignore the meaning of the Arabic word "kaaba" and are thus unable to translate it.
2. The second problem is that even the Arabic words that you know such as حرم , which you correctly translate as "restricted", you ignore that correct meaning and instead imagine that it means "taking off your clothes and wearing some towels so that you can mindlessly spin half-naked around a stone cube".
3. The third problem is related to the first problem. Since the "kaaba" to you means a useless stone cube that is only for you to mindlessly spin around, you seem to think that the real "kaaba"/base (the god's inviolable house) suddenly disappears when there is no "hajj".
4. The fourth problem is that when the god mentions "four inviolable four moons (or months according to you)", you hear instead "inviolable while doing the sectarian so-called Hajj". So you even ignore your own understanding of the restriction period being four "months" and instead assume that it is just on the 8th-13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 01:57:34 AMWe are only under restriction when we are in Hajj--see below:
O you who believe, honor your contracts. Made lawful for you are the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you. You are not permitted to hunt the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
5:1 يأيها الذين ءامنوا أوفوا بالعقود أحلت لكم بهيمة الأنعم إلا ما يتلى عليكم غير محلي الصيد وأنتم حرم إن الله يحكم ما يريد
O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of God, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Restricted House; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when restriction is over, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Restricted Temple; make you aggress. And help each other in piety and righteousness, and do not help each other in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for the retribution of God is severe.
5:2 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تحلوا شعئر الله ولا الشهر الحرام ولا الهدي ولا القلئد ولا ءامين البيت الحرام يبتغون فضلا من ربهم ورضونا وإذا حللتم فاصطادوا ولا يجرمنكم شنءان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام أن تعتدوا وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدون واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب
So according to your logic, "honor your contracts. Made lawful for you are the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you" is only from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and otherwise we shouldn't honor our contracts and we should eat pork!
You also ignore once again the very translation that you are providing. It clearly says "when restriction is over" not "when your so-called Hajj from 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hiajjah is over".
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 10:33:25 PM
do you mean this month ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Month
As you can see, the english word "month" is a human arbitrary subdivision of the year. it has never been the same 29-30 days in all ancient cultures. There are many types of months, not all of them have the same meaning.
So if you posted this question in BOLD just because you are convinced that month depends EXCLUSIVELEY on the moon, so tell me what do you think about the ? month ? February ?
Is it depending on the moon ?
The Quranic teaching for this , is that we should START counting from obvious markers/events (shahr = full moon = front doors) and stop the count @ 12, within a solar year (don?t you really see that the year is solar ??)
After that, it?s up to you to find a word for the ? time frame ? between two obvious moon markers ??shahar?? .. some call it month , why don?t you ?
Peace duck,
Let me make simple for you as I did with Samia:
Translate the following ENGLISH WORD TO ARABIC:
MONTH
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 08:30:00 PMIf Ayman and his followers have some creditability left, please answer this question:
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD MONTH?
Sorry for the big letters, but I want everyone to understand why we are disputing with Ayman and his followers.
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD WEEK?Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:38:54 PM
Peace Belal,
There are several problems in your logic (or more appropriately, lack thereof).
1. The first problem is that you ignore the meaning of the Arabic word "kaaba" and are thus unable to translate it.
That is the meaning of KABBA:
God has made the KABBA to be the Restricted House; to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you may know that God knows what is in the heavens and what is in earth, and that God is aware of all things.
5:97 جعل الله الكعبة البيت الحرام قيما للناس والشهر الحرام والهدي والقلئد ذلك لتعلموا أن الله يعلم ما في السموت وما في الأرض وأن الله بكل شيء عليم
The Kabba is the Restricted HOUSE...Which I believe is in Jerusalem, where Makam (Tomb) Abraham Stands.
Thus :
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and
to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
The Sacrifice shall be in the Restricted House..Therefore, the Hunting Restriction is During our Hajj to the Restricted House. :!
Now:
WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:47:44 PM
Peace Belal,
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD WEEK?
Peace,
Ayman
Please Ayman, make it simple for him
@ BelH
Translate the following ENGLISH WORD TO ARABIC
WEEKI mean , this WEEK :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week
salam,
P.S : :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 10:55:32 PM
Please Ayman, make it simple for him
@ BelH
Translate the following ENGLISH WORD TO ARABIC
WEEK
I mean , this WEEK :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week
salam,
P.S : :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
أسبوع
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 10:54:50 PMThat is the meaning of KABBA:
God has made the KABBA to be the Restricted House; to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you may know that God knows what is in the heavens and what is in earth, and that God is aware of all things.
5:97 جعل الله الكعبة البيت الحرام قيما للناس والشهر الحرام والهدي والقلئد ذلك لتعلموا أن الله يعلم ما في السموت وما في الأرض وأن الله بكل شيء عليم
The Kabba is the Restricted HOUSE...Which I believe is in Jerusalem, where Makam (Tomb) Abraham Stands.
Thus :
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the Kabba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whoever returns, then God will seek vengeance on him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.
5:95 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تقتلوا الصيد وأنتم حرم ومن قتله منكم متعمدا فجزاء مثل ما قتل من النعم يحكم به ذوا عدل منكم هديا بلغ الكعبة أو كفرة طعام مسكين أو عدل ذلك صياما ليذوق وبال أمره عفا الله عما سلف ومن عاد فينتقم الله منه والله عزيز ذو انتقام
The Sacrifice shall be in the Restricted House..Therefore, the Hunting Restriction is During our Hajj to the Restricted House. :!
Are you saying that the sectarians' Kaaba is not the real "kaaba" but they just built a stone cube and hijacked the word "kaaba" from the great reading and named their pagan shrine accordingly? This is very interesting. How do we know that you are also not hijacking the word "kaaba" and slapping it on some rock in Jerusalem? Please tell us what "kaaba" means so that we can see if you are truthful.
If you don't trust the sectarians on "kaaba" then why trust them on "ramadhan". It is much easier to name an arbitrary abstract month than to make people go on a pilgrimage to a different physical location hundreds of kilometers away in the middle of the desert.
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 10:54:50 PMNow:
WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?
I see that you took out the word
QURANIC. If you did it on purpose then thank you for your honesty and correction. So do you now acknoweldge that the great reading doesn't mention arbitrary manmade calendars and their arbitrary months and weeks?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 11:04:52 PM
أسبوع
Correct !
but can you please quote a verse with أسبوع ?
If you don't find, what can we deduce ?
that it is unquranic ? that it doesn't exist ? or that
it is not important as long as we Count 12 full-moons "shahars" in solar year ?
Good luck !
P.S : please post in bold so everyone could read your answer !
Salam
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:47:44 PM
Peace Belal,
What is the QURANIC ARABIC WORD that is equal to the ENGLISH WORD WEEK?
Peace,
Ayman
God Has mentioned Friday and Saturday in Quran...Now, What is the period between TWO Fridays or Two Saturdays?
The arabic Word for this period is:
أسبوعNow:
WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 11:10:31 PM
Correct !
but can you please quote a verse with أسبوع ?
If you don't find, what can we deduce ?
that it is unquranic ? that it doesn't exist ? or that it is not important as long as we Count 12 full-moons "shahars" in solar year ?
Good luck !
P.S : please post in bold so everyone could read your answer !
Salam
I have told you the arabic word that is equal to WEEK, Now:
WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 11:11:27 PMGod Has mentioned Friday and Saturday in Quran...Now, What is the period between TWO Fridays or Two Saturdays?
The name Friday comes from the Old English friged?g, meaning the day of Frige the Anglo-Saxon form of Frigg, a West Germanic translation of Latin dies Veneris, "day (of the planet) Venus."Saturday was named no later than the second century for the planet (Saturn), which controlled the first hour of that day according to Vettius Valens. The planet was named for the Roman god of agriculture Saturn. It has been called dies Saturni ("Saturn's Day"), through which form it entered into Old English as S?ternesd?g and gradually evolved into the word "Saturday". Saturday is the only day of the week in which the English name comes from Roman mythology. The English names of all of the other days of the week come from Germanic polytheism.Can you please provide the passages of the great reading where the god mentions the day of the pagan goddess of fertility Frigga (the equivalent of the Roman Venus and the Greek Aphrodite) and the day of Saturn, the Roman pagan god of agriculture?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 11:14:02 PM
WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?
i did'nt notice that you changed you initial question (quranic word to arabic word) ?
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 11:11:27 PM
God Has mentioned Friday and Saturday in Quran...Now, What is the period between TWO Fridays or Two Saturdays?
the Answer should freak you :
The time periode between two fridays is also called : " 1 friday "
eg: Belal was traveling for 1 friday . (= for a week)
Now i'll answer your big-bold-moving question :
the time frame between 2 shahrs can also be called "1 shahr".
But this is arbitrary, can you understand ?
Salam
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 11:07:31 PM
I see that you took out the word QURANIC. If you did it on purpose then thank you for your honesty and correction. So do you now acknoweldge that the great reading doesn't mention arbitrary manmade calendars and their arbitrary months and weeks?
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman, let us Cut the chase...If you answer the following, I will give you some creditability:
WHAT IS THE QURAINIC ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 11:21:54 PM
Peace Belal,
The name Friday comes from the Old English friged?g, meaning the day of Frige the Anglo-Saxon form of Frigg, a West Germanic translation of Latin dies Veneris, "day (of the planet) Venus."
Saturday was named no later than the second century for the planet (Saturn), which controlled the first hour of that day according to Vettius Valens. The planet was named for the Roman god of agriculture Saturn. It has been called dies Saturni ("Saturn's Day"), through which form it entered into Old English as S?ternesd?g and gradually evolved into the word "Saturday". Saturday is the only day of the week in which the English name comes from Roman mythology. The English names of all of the other days of the week come from Germanic polytheism.
Do you mean that there is no Saturday nor Friday in Quran?
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 11:21:54 PM
Can you please provide the passages of the great reading where the god mentions the day of the pagan goddess of fertility Frigga (the equivalent of the Roman Venus and the Greek Aphrodite) and the day of Saturn, the Roman pagan god of agriculture?
Peace,
Ayman
2-65, 4-47, 4-154, 7-163, 16-124, 7-163, 62-9
Peace Quickduck,
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 11:23:26 PMi did'nt notice that you changed you initial question (quranic word to arabic word) ?
He did it after I asked him about the QURANIC ARABIC word for WEEK. :)
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 11:23:26 PMThe time periode between two fridays is also called : " 1 friday "
eg: Belal was traveling for 1 friday . (= for a week)
Belal's question about Friday and Saturday is as irrelevant as asking about January and February.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 11:23:26 PM
Now i'll answer your big-bold-moving question :
the time frame between 2 shahrs can also be called "1 shahr".
But this is arbitrary, can you understand ?
Thank you for concurring to this valuable meaning:
SHAHER is the ARABIC WORD FOR the ENGLISH WORD MONTHNow, SHAHAR RAMADAN equal the ENGLISH WORDS MONTH of RAMADAN
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 11:32:45 PMAyman, let us Cut the chase...If you answer the following, I will give you some creditability:
WHAT IS THE QURAINIC ARABIC WORD THAT EQUAL THE ENGLISH WORD "MONTH"?
This is an easy question. The god doesn't mention the word "month" in the great reading in the same way that he doesn't mention the word "week" (as you realize by now) and many other things.
Quote from: belH on September 12, 2009, 11:32:45 PMDo you mean that there is no Saturday nor Friday in Quran?
2-65, 4-47, 4-154, 7-163, 16-124, 7-163, 62-9
Those passages don't mention anything about Frigga day or Saturn day. If you knew what the Arabic words "juma'a" and "sabt" mean then you wouldn't be asking this question.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 11:39:42 PM
Peace Belal,
This is an easy question. The god doesn't mention the word "month" in the great reading in the same way that he doesn't mention the word "week" (as you realize by now) and many other things.
WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT IS EQUAL TO THE ENGLISH WORD MONTHQuote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 11:39:42 PM
Those passages don't mention anything about Frigga day or Saturn day. If you knew what the Arabic words "juma'a" and "sabt" mean then you wouldn't be asking this question.
:wow Can you teach us the correct meaning PLEASE, but after answering the above question as duck did.
Ayman, after answering my BIG Question, can you also teach us the true meaning of 5-95, specially these ARABIC WORDS:
هديا بلغ الكعبة
Thank you for your effort in educating us ;D
Quote from: quickduck on September 12, 2009, 11:23:26 PM
the time frame between 2 shahrs can also be called "1 shahr".
Peace,
I know your time is valuable, but can you tell us HOW MANY DAYS ARE IN 1 SHAHR?
Duck, I know you will not let us down by not answering in a straight forward way.
:handshake:
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 12:20:38 AM
Peace,
I know your time is valuable, but can you tell us HOW MANY DAYS ARE IN 1 SHAHR?
Duck, I know you will not let us down by not answering in a straight forward way.
:handshake:
All actual arabic "months" are 29-30 days .
All gregorian "months" all 30-31 days except fberuary 28-29.
Time frame between 2 "shahrs" events ( full moons ) can be called as 1 shahr period (month).
The same way as the time frame between 2 women menstruating "events" can be called as 1 menstruation "period" .
I hope i was as clear as you could understand .
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 13, 2009, 12:34:42 AM
All actual arabic "months" are 29-30 days .
All gregorian "months" all 30-31 days except fberuary 28-29.
Time frame between 2 "shahrs" events ( full moons ) can be called as 1 shahr period (month).
The same way as the time frame between 2 women menstruating "events" can be called as 1 menstruation "period" .
I hope i was as clear as you could understand .
Salam
Thank you duck for your post.
By the way I will correct the above red words to the following red words ;D
All actual Lunar "months" are 29-30 days .
Thank you...I'm done with you for now
:)
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 12:38:41 AM
Thank you duck for your post.
By the way I will correct the above red words to the following red words ;D
All actual Lunar "months" are 29-30 days .
False ! read this from wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Month
Types of months
[edit] Sidereal month
The period of the Moon's orbit as defined with respect to the celestial sphere (known as esthers) is known as a sidereal month because it is the time it takes the Moon to return to a given position among the stars (Latin: sidus): 27.321661 days (27 d 7 h 43 min 11.5 s). This type of month has been observed among cultures in the Middle East, India, and China in the following way: they divided the sky into 27 or 28 lunar mansions, identified by the prominent star(s) in them.
[edit] Tropical month
It is customary to specify positions of celestial bodies with respect to the vernal equinox. Because of precession, this point moves back slowly along the ecliptic. Therefore it takes the Moon less time to return to an ecliptic longitude of zero than to the same point amidst the fixed stars: 27.321582 days (27 d 7 h 43 min 4.7 s). This slightly shorter period is known as tropical month; cf. the analogous tropical year of the Sun.
[edit] Anomalistic month
Like all orbits, the Moon's orbit is an ellipse rather than a circle. However, the orientation (as well as the shape) of this orbit is not fixed. In particular, the position of the extreme points (the line of the apsides: perigee and apogee), makes a full circle (lunar precession) in about nine years. It takes the Moon longer to return to the same apsis because it moved ahead during one revolution. This longer period is called the anomalistic month, and has an average length of 27.554551 days (27 d 13 h 18 min 33.2 s). The apparent diameter of the Moon varies with this period, and therefore this type has some relevance for the prediction of eclipses (see Saros), whose extent, duration, and appearance (whether total or annular) depend on the exact apparent diameter of the Moon. The apparent diameter of the full moon varies with the full moon cycle which is the beat period of the synodic and anomalistic month, and also the period after which the apsides point to the Sun again.
[edit] Draconic month
Also called the nodical month. The orbit of the moon lies in a plane that is tilted with respect to the plane of the ecliptic: it has an inclination of about five degrees. The line of intersection of these planes defines two points on the celestial sphere: the ascending node, when the moon's path crosses the ecliptic as the moon moves into the northern hemisphere, and descending node when the moon's path crosses the ecliptic as the moon moves into the southern hemisphere. The draconic or nodical month is the average interval between two successive transits of the moon through its ascending node. Because of the sun's gravitational pull on the moon, the moon's orbit gradually rotates westward on its axis, which means the nodes gradually rotate around the earth. As a result, the time it takes the moon to return to the same node is shorter than a sidereal month. It lasts 27.212220 days (27 d 5 h 5 min 35.8 s). The plane of the moon's orbit precesses over a full circle in about 18.6 years.
Because the moon's orbit is inclined with respect to the ecliptic, the sun, moon, and earth are in line only when the moon is at one of the nodes. Whenever this happens a solar or lunar eclipse is possible. The name "draconic" refers to a mythical dragon, said to live in the nodes and eat the sun or moon during an eclipse.
[edit] Synodic month
This is the average period of the Moon's revolution with respect to the sun. The synodic month is responsible for the moon's phases, because the Moon's appearance depends on the position of the Moon with respect to the Sun as seen from the Earth. While the moon is orbiting the earth, the Earth is progressing in its orbit around the Sun. This means that after completing a sidereal month the Moon must move a little farther to reach the new position of the Earth with respect to the Sun. This longer period is called the synodic month (Greek: σὺν ὁδῴ, sun hodō, meaning "with the way [of the sun]"). Because of perturbations in the orbits of the Earth and Moon, the actual time between lunations may range from about 29.27 to about 29.83 days. The long-term average duration is 29.530589 days (29 d 12 h 44 min 2.9 s). The synodic month is used in the Metonic cycle.
[edit] Month lengths
Here is a list of the average length of the various astronomical lunar months.[1] These are not constant, so a first-order (linear) approximation of the secular change is provided:
Valid for the epoch J2000.0 (1 January 2000 12:00 TT):
anomalistic month 27.554549878 - 0.000000010390 ? y days
sidereal month 27.321661547 + 0.000000001857 ? y days
tropical month 27.321582241 + 0.000000001506 ? y days
draconic month 27.212220817 + 0.000000003833 ? y days
synodic month 29.530588853 + 0.000000002162 ? y days
Note: time expressed in Ephemeris Time (more precisely Terrestrial Time) with days of 86,400 SI seconds. y is years since the epoch (2000), expressed in Julian years of 365.25 days. Note that for calendrical calculations, one would probably use days measured in the time scale of Universal Time, which follows the somewhat unpredictable rotation of the Earth, and progressively accumulates a difference with ephemeris time called ΔT.good bye !
BTW
السبت means : rest /retire
الجمعة means : gathering / reunion
salam,
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 12:38:41 AM
Thank you duck for your post.
By the way I will correct the above red words to the following red words ;D
All actual Lunar "months" are 29-30 days .
Thank you...I'm done with you for now
:)
Belh.
salam. Do you know why God did not name this period ? (between two shahars,or according to you, a certain moon shape to the same shape again )
siki
Quote from: siki on September 13, 2009, 12:55:48 AM
Belh.
salam. Do you know why God did not name this period ? (between two shahars,or according to you, a certain moon shape to the same shape again )
siki
Peace,
As Duck concurred, this period is named by God as the ARABIC WORD SHAHAR; not only in the Quran, but also in the Bible and Old Testament.
God gave the ONE Sun Cycle period the name "Yhom"--Day, The Moon Cycle period (29 to 30 days) the name "Shahar"--Month, and the 12 Moon Cycle Periods "Sana"--Year.
As you can see the Sun and the Moon have to be used to calculate the time periods, which can not be counted unless you use the Sun and the Moon Together, as per 10-5 and 17-12 instructions.
Peace
Quote from: quickduck on September 13, 2009, 12:49:00 AM
False ! read this from wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Month
If you are a Researcher, then you should know that wikipedia is not a Valid nor Reliable source of information. Therefore, it will be a waste of time to analyze information that is Junk.
Quote from: quickduck on September 13, 2009, 12:53:33 AM
BTW
السبت means : rest /retire
الجمعة means : gathering / reunion
salam,
Duck, do السبت (Sabaat) and الجمعة (Jom3a) mark specific days within the 7 days period of time? In other words, are the two days repeated every 7 days (7 Sun Cycles)?
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 01:37:31 AM
Peace,
As Duck concurred, this period is named by God as the ARABIC WORD SHAHAR; not only in the Quran, but also in the Bible and Old Testament.
God gave the ONE Sun Cycle period the name "Yhom"--Day, The Moon Cycle period (29 to 30 days) the name "Shahar"--Month, and the 12 Moon Cycle Periods "Sana"--Year.
As you can see the Sun and the Moon have to be used to calculate the time periods, which can not be counted unless you use the Sun and the Moon Together, as per 10-5 and 17-12 instructions.
Peace
He never said that God has named this period as shahar in quran, he said that we , the mortals have started to call this period ,as shahar too. Or to clarify , "shahar as month" is an evolved meaning in Arabic, and over a period of time has dominated the original meaning to an extent that the divine meaning has become extinct. Thanks to "Ayman and cronies "that they are trying to revive the original meanings after finding hints from the Quran.
Ok , my question is, why has not God named this period?
siki
Peace all
The Sign of the Year is the Sun -
The Sign of the Month is the Full Moon -
Some here remind me of the people of Bani Israeel in the 2nd Chapter of the Quran asking for more and more details
to Moses about the Calf they were asked to sacrifice.
Also accusing others that they are followers of Ayman is slander, one follows the truth, and no one apart from Allah has
monopoly over it. In my view, all humans are amateurs.
If you read ayat 10:5, the Sun is mentioned first, so it has higher emphasis than the moon, the order that Allah enunciate
his Signs is very important, and show level of importance as well as chronology...
The more we elaborate about this matter, the more I get convinced about it...
Now talking about following Ayman, I do not, and the proof of the pudding is that I disagree with his on the Jinn cosmogony theory,
and with the fact of the absence of a geographical position of the kaaba, and that the kaaba is a base, as opposed to
a natural protruding rock situated in Jerusalem, and that Masjid Al Aqsa referred to in the Quran is not on Earth, etc.
Salam
Noble
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 07:00:16 AM
Peace all
The Sign of the Year is the Sun -
The Sign of the Month is the Full Moon -
Some here remind me of the people of Bani Israeel in the 2nd Chapter of the Quran asking for more and more details
to Moses about the Calf they were asked to sacrifice.
Also accusing others that they are followers of Ayman is slander, one follows the truth, and no one apart from Allah has
monopoly over it. In my view, all humans are amateurs.
If you read ayat 10:5, the Sun is mentioned first, so it has higher emphasis than the moon, the order that Allah enunciate
his Signs is very important, and show level of importance as well as chronology...
The more we elaborate about this matter, the more I get convinced about it...
Now talking about following Ayman, I do not, and the proof of the pudding is that I disagree with his on the Jinn cosmogony theory,
and with the fact of the absence of a geographical position of the kaaba, and that the kaaba is a base, as opposed to
a natural protruding rock situated in Jerusalem, and that Masjid Al Aqsa referred to in the Quran is not on Earth, etc.
Salam
Noble
+1
I repeat : I don't follow Ayman. I follow what I am convinced of. i Use my reason/brain to figure out...
Ayman did a very good job on the Ramadan issue. if a had to give him a (logical/quranic) mark, it will be 9/10. Sectarian Ramadan (logical/quranic) Mark is 1/10.. that's it !!!
Ayman's Ramadan theory is so far his best work , although the most controversial one.
Salam
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
We can?t count the days and use lunar months as a marker because 17:12 doesn?t mention the moon at all.
17:12 doesn't mention SUN either. Why aren't you highlighting this fact like you do for the moon. It doesn't talk about long day or short night, it simply says we rendered the night and the day two signs. The fact is day and night is caused by earth spin. Therefore, if the earth did not spin then half of it will be lighted and other half will remain dark all the time. We use night and day to calculated fractions of lunar month. And that is the proper use. Twelve months gives us one lunar year. The new moon serve as the beginning marker and it needs sunlight to perform this job. You are making hadith when you connect the night and day to the sun and use it to satisfy your imagination. Remember there is no sun in 17:12. You are beating around the bush to make your point.
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
Also, there is nothing inherent in a lunar month that marks the year. One can make a lunar calendar with a year consisting of 10, 11, 13, 14, or 1000 lunar months,
The year is marked by 12 months = 1 year (lunar that is). As for the claim that ?One can make a lunar calendar with a year consisting of 10, 11, 13, 14, or 1000 lunar months...?, a disbeliever would do this kind of thing. A believer will use 12 months per 9:36.
10:17 - Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about GOD, or rejects His revelations. Certainly, the transgressors never succeed.
10:19 - The people used to be one congregation, then they disputed. If it were not for a predetermined word from your Lord, they would have been judged immediately regarding their disputes.
Quote from: siki on September 13, 2009, 02:47:24 AM
He never said that God has named this period as shahar in quran, he said that we , the mortals have started to call this period ,as shahar too. Or to clarify , "shahar as month" is an evolved meaning in Arabic, and over a period of time has dominated the original meaning to an extent that the divine meaning has become extinct. Thanks to "Ayman and cronies "that they are trying to revive the original meanings after finding hints from the Quran.
Ok , my question is, why has not God named this period?
siki
If you think so, can you answer it yourself; in other words, if Shahar is not the Authentic Arabic Word for Month, what is the One Authentic Word?
If you Search All the Arabic Dictionaries you will Find one Word--
Shahar I dare you, Ayman, and any one to Come with another Word but Shahar.
As far as the "Full Moon" in Arabic Words, please search all the Dictionaries and you will Find Many Authentic Arabic Words, of which Non is Shahar.
Shahar = Full Moon is not a well-established nor a Valid Translation as Shahar= Month; The later has overwhelming evidences that can not be denied except by the Hypocrites--the ones who follow the non-well-established meaning to cancel out the well-established ones (3-7)
Peace
You mean the one approved by the majority.
Since when approving with the majority made one a hypocrite, according to this definition all Prophets were hypocrites.
This is pathetic, lame, irrational, and whimsical reasoning.
LA TAFQAHUNA SHAIAH... YAWAILATA ALAIKUM...
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 12:03:04 AMWHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD THAT IS EQUAL TO THE ENGLISH WORD MONTH
I dare you, Ayman, and any one to Come with another Word but Shahar.
It depends on which Arabic you are talking about. Are you talking about Pre-Islamic Arabic or Modern Arabic? I hope that you know that there is a difference.
In the case of the great reading, we are only concerned with Pre-Islamic Arabic. In Pre-Islamic Arabic, the Arabic word for month was
?yarkh? in Northern Arabian dialects and
?warkh? in Southern and Central Arabian dialects. On the other hand, ?shahr? was never used to mean ?month?. This is confirmed by the physical evidence of Pre-Islamic inscriptions:
1. Southern/Central Arabian dialect (see
?warkh? used to mean month):
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
2. Northern Arabian dialect (see
?yarkh? used to mean month):
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Also, please note that none of the Pre-Islamic inscriptions mention any of the sectarian months? names.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 12:03:04 AM:wow Can you teach us the correct meaning PLEASE, but after answering the above question as duck did.
Quickduck already provided you with the meaning and their meaning has nothing to do with the week. Now your turn please provide evidence from the great reading that the week is 7 days.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 12:10:26 AMAyman, after answering my BIG Question, can you also teach us the true meaning of 5-95, specially these ARABIC WORDS:
هديا بلغ الكعبة
Thank you for your effort in educating us ;D
First, do you agree that ?kaaba? doesn?t mean a stone cube?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 09, 2009, 04:26:33 PM
my 'understand/not understand/need clarification' lists:
(Note for the reader: these are only things I understand/dont understand from Ayman's article - they dont necessarily represent my own position).
First off, here are the things I understand:
- 'shahr Ramadan' = 'full moon of scorching heat'
- this full moon appears after the summer solstice
- the Quran was sent down during the night appearance of this full moon (laylatul qadr)
- the year is solar: we should count 12 full moons in each of them, hence the calendar is luni-solar
- the crescents help us for the timing of the hajj, but also the fast, since it takes 10 days for the moon to go from its full moon phase into its crescent phase - the fasting and the hajj both take 10 days each.
- as exaplained above, the fasting is for 'ayyaman madoodatin', which means 'few days'. As per a hint from 7:142, one can conclude that fasting is for 10 days.
- the count of the full moons in a year is 12. Although 13 might appear in some years, they shall not be counted, as per the command in 9:36.
Thank you for your excellent summary. You actually did a much better job than me in explaining in better and simpler terms.
progressive1993 omitted the most important purpose of Ayman's article i.e. his timing system will produce an error less than 1 day. Instead of correcting this error Ayman applaud progressive1993 for an excellent summary of his article. Does he not know that the most important part of his theory is missing from the summary. Maybe he doesn't want to bring it up because he knows that it produces an error of 30 days or more.
Here is Ayman's original quote: "In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent."
Peace Guest,
I normally wouldn't reply to your antics, especially since they have been answered many times on this thread. I will give you this chance but if you can't understand this reply then it is useless to discuss with you.
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 12:03:03 PM17:12 doesn't mention SUN either. Why aren't you highlighting this fact like you do for the moon. It doesn't talk about long day or short night, it simply says we rendered the night and the day two signs. The fact is day and night is caused by earth spin. Therefore, if the earth did not spin then half of it will be lighted and other half will remain dark all the time. We use night and day to calculated fractions of lunar month. And that is the proper use. Twelve months gives us one lunar year. The new moon serve as the beginning marker and it needs sunlight to perform this job. You are making hadith when you connect the night and day to the sun and use it to satisfy your imagination. Remember there is no sun in 17:12. You are beating around the bush to make your point.
The day and night are determined by the sun and they have nothing to do with the moon.
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 12:03:03 PMThe year is marked by 12 months = 1 year (lunar that is). As for the claim that ?One can make a lunar calendar with a year consisting of 10, 11, 13, 14, or 1000 lunar months...?, a disbeliever would do this kind of thing. A believer will use 12 months per 9:36.
10:17 - Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about GOD, or rejects His revelations. Certainly, the transgressors never succeed.
10:19 - The people used to be one congregation, then they disputed. If it were not for a predetermined word from your Lord, they would have been judged immediately regarding their disputes.
Tell this to yourself. Do you even understand what a count is? In order to count, you have to know the population that you are counting out of. Just recycling the names of the months every 12 months is not counting 12, especially since those names are meaningless anyway and so you could call those months anything. Therefore, the sectarians are now counting month # 17169 and haven?t stopped the counting at 12. If they took month 2 as month 1 then the present sectarian Ramadhan would have been month 17168 and they would be fasting next month. Because the sectarians haven?t stopped counting with 12 as ordered in 9:36 and instead kept counting, your present day month #17169 is tied to month 1 and can never be independent from it. So the sectarians have now been violating 9:36 for the past 17157 lunar months.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:19:07 PM
Peace Belal,
It depends on which Arabic you are talking about. Are you talking about Pre-Islamic Arabic or Modern Arabic? I hope that you know that there is a difference.
In the case of the great reading, we are only concerned with Pre-Islamic Arabic. In Pre-Islamic Arabic, the Arabic word for month was ?yarkh? in Northern Arabian dialects and ?warkh? in Southern and Central Arabian dialects. On the other hand, ?shahr? was never used to mean ?month?. This is confirmed by the physical evidence of Pre-Islamic inscriptions:
1. Southern/Central Arabian dialect (see ?warkh? used to mean month):
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
2. Northern Arabian dialect (see ?yarkh? used to mean month):
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Also, please note that none of the Pre-Islamic inscriptions mention any of the sectarian months? names.
I could not find any reference to WARKH nor YARK in the links you provided.
Moreover, can you find if the word Shahar means Full Moon, and the Word Ramadan Means Scorching Moon in the Pre-Islamic Arabic. And once done, please share the results with us.
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:19:07 PM
Quickduck already provided you with the meaning and their meaning has nothing to do with the week. Now your turn please provide evidence from the great reading that the week is 7 days.
Duck still stumbling with the rest of my question--How many days are between two Sabet (Saturday)? A
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:19:07 PM
First, do you agree that ?kaaba? doesn?t mean a stone cube?
I believe brother Layth has provided a clear defination to the word Kabba, which I believe is the most accurate, in his article.
Now, answer the question.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:35:58 PM
The day and night are determined by the sun and they have nothing to do with the moon.
The sun does not determine day or night. Its job is to generate and emit light, period. The earth makes day by presenting parts of itself to the sun. The part that is hidden from the sun in night. Likewise the part that moon exposes to the sun becomes day there. The moon reflect this sunlight towards us and lights part of the earth. So even at night we get sunlight, though not as strong as direct sunlight. How does sun determine the day and night? Is the sun flip-flopping its position back and forth between two sides of earth to give us night and day?
Please show us the word SUN in 17:12.
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:35:58 PM
Tell this to yourself. Do you even understand what a count is? In order to count, you have to know the population that you are counting out of. Just recycling the names of the months every 12 months is not counting 12, especially since those names are meaningless anyway and so you could call those months anything.
Don't tell me how to do counting using population. You have already demonstrated your ignorance by quoting the use of bathtub curve. I would have used the weibull distribution. Do you know why I would have chosen weibull instead of bathtub curve? I will save more discussion for latter.
Quote
Peace Ayman,
The sun does not determine day or night. Its job is to generate and emit light, period. The earth makes day by presenting parts of itself to the sun. The part that is hidden from the sun in night. Likewise the part that moon exposes to the sun becomes day there. The moon reflect this sunlight towards us and lights part of the earth. So even at night we get sunlight, though not as strong as direct sunlight. How does sun determine the day and night? Is the sun flip-flopping its position back and forth between two sides of earth to give us night and day?
There is no Quranic evidence for this neo-astronomy. In the Quran, the Sun moves and determines the day and night.
The phases of the moon comes from the fact that the Sun takes 24 hours to orbit the Earth while the moon takes 24 hr 50 minutes.
You either join us or die! :P
I admit. :offtopic:
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 02:45:55 PMI could not find any reference to WARKH nor YARK in the links you provided.
This is because you didn't read them carefully.
Read line (iii) 4th word and line (ix) 4th word in Abraha's inscription. (warkh)
Read the sixth line, second word in the Raqush inscription. (yarkh)
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 02:45:55 PMMoreover, can you find if the word Shahar means Full Moon, and the Word Ramadan Means Scorching Moon in the Pre-Islamic Arabic. And once done, please share the results with us.
It looks like you were on "sabt"/rest through the 120 pages of this thread. Instead of lazily asking to be spoonfed the answers, read the thread properly and make an effort to look in Classical Arabic dictionaries and you will see that "full-moon" is one of the meanings of "shahr" and that "scorching" is one of the meanings of "ramadhan". So "shahr ramadhan" = "scorching full-moon".
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 02:45:55 PMDuck still stumbling with the rest of my question--How many days are between two Sabet (Saturday)? A
In Quranic Arabic, "sabet" doesn't mean Saturday so your question is pure nonsense.
If you are intelligent then tell us how many days in a week according to the great reading.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 02:45:55 PMI believe brother Layth has provided a clear defination to the word Kabba, which I believe is the most accurate, in his article.
This is what Layth says:
"The Kaba (cube) which was used as the center of pagan rituals, is an emulation of the Kaba of Abraham which the Nabataens may have certainly come to know through the call of Abraham to the pilgrimage many centuries ago."He translates "kaaba" as "cube". Is that what you think? I think that any reasonable person would see that the cube has nothing to do with the god's inviolable house and this is nothing but nonsense.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 02:45:55 PMNow, answer the question.
I don't think that anything can help you if you think that some cube is what the god meant by "kaaba".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 02:57:18 PMThe sun does not determine day or night. Its job is to generate and emit light, period. The earth makes day by presenting parts of itself to the sun. The part that is hidden from the sun in night.
As everyone can see from his own contradictory words, Guest is either a hypocrite, mentally challenged or both (most likely).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 03:37:15 PM
I don't think that anything can help you if you think that some cube is what the god meant by "kaaba".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Sorry this may be a little off topic, but I am a little curious now to the meaning of 'Kaaba'. If you don't mind can you please explain. Thank you for your continued patients on this thread. May God be pleased with you.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 03:42:58 PM
Peace everyone,
As everyone can see from his own contradictory words, Guest is either a hypocrite, mentally challenged or both (most likely).
Peace,
Ayman
You have a comprehension problem. You react without understanding a matter. This is why your concept and the article is flawed. The SUN does not decide where on earth the day is. It is determined by the earth. Hope you get this simple matter. Otherwise tell us how we get a day on earth.
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
Peace Ayman,
The sun does not determine day or night. Its job is to generate and emit light, period. The earth makes day by presenting parts of itself to the sun. The part that is hidden from the sun in night. Likewise the part that moon exposes to the sun becomes day there. The moon reflect this sunlight towards us and lights part of the earth. So even at night we get sunlight, though not as strong as direct sunlight. How does sun determine the day and night? Is the sun flip-flopping its position back and forth between two sides of earth to give us night and day?
sun does not determine day or night? :o ,
let us see, there is no sun, what would it be on earth?
If earth does no rotate, but sun is still there, would there be day and night on earth?
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 03:53:08 PM
You have a comprehension problem. You react without understanding a matter. This is why your concept and the article is flawed. The SUN does not decide where on earth the day is. It is determined by the earth. Hope you get this simple matter. Otherwise tell us how we get a day on earth.
only Allah swt determines day and night. thanks
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 03:53:08 PM
You have a comprehension problem. You react without understanding a matter. This is why your concept and the article is flawed. The SUN does not decide where on earth the day is. It is determined by the earth. Hope you get this simple matter. Otherwise tell us how we get a day on earth.
Brother , if there was no sun, it will be all darkness, no day/night, where as if earth did not rotate , there will still be day and night (permanent) on earth.
siki
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 03:53:08 PM
You have a comprehension problem. You react without understanding a matter. This is why your concept and the article is flawed. The SUN does not decide where on earth the day is. It is determined by the earth. Hope you get this simple matter. Otherwise tell us how we get a day on earth.
i'd make to you a tutorial video if only i had time. Because you seem having big problems with plain text !
One more time, please how Old are you ?
Peace,
Quote from: siki on September 13, 2009, 03:54:00 PM
sun does not determine day or night? :o ,
let us see, there is no sun, what would it be on earth?
If earth does no rotate, but sun is still there, would there be day and night on earth?
All Ayman alike people have understanding problem. Here is one of them.
The answer to the first question is the earth decide which of its side gets the day and NOT the sun.
The answer to the second question is dark earth, it will get some light from star.
The answer to the third question was already provided. You don't read/understand. See red text below.
Quote from: ayman on September 11, 2009, 03:16:57 PM
We can?t count the days and use lunar months as a marker because 17:12 doesn?t mention the moon at all.
17:12 doesn't mention SUN either. Why aren't you highlighting this fact like you do for the moon. It doesn't talk about long day or short night, it simply says we rendered the night and the day two signs. The fact is day and night is caused by earth spin. Therefore, if the earth did not spin then half of it will be lighted and other half will remain dark all the time. We use night and day to calculated fractions of lunar month. And that is the proper use. Twelve months gives us one lunar year. The new moon serve as the beginning marker and it needs sunlight to perform this job. You are making hadith when you connect the night and day to the sun and use it to satisfy your imagination. Remember there is no sun in 17:12. You are beating around the bush to make your point.
Peace Hope,
Quote from: hope4 on September 13, 2009, 03:49:51 PMSorry this may be a little off topic, but I am a little curious now to the meaning of 'Kaaba'. If you don't mind can you please explain. Thank you for your continued patients on this thread. May God be pleased with you.
Thank you for your question. In Arabic, the masculine and the feminine have the same meaning but the feminine can add some intensification. The Arabic word "kaab" has the same basic meaning as "kaaba". In Arabic the word "kaab" is used in expressions like "kaab al-wadi" to mean "the base of the valley" and in "kaab al-hithaa" to mean "the base of the shoe". So the word "kaab" essentially means "base". The "base" being a safe place for gathering is a well-known universal concept that everyone understands, including children who play hide and seek. On the other hand, there is nothing inherently safe or condusive to gathering about any cube, no matter how special.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 04:19:12 PM
Peace,
All Ayman alike people have understanding problem. Here is one of them.
The answer to the first question is the earth decide which of its side gets the day and NOT the sun.
The answer to the second question is dark earth, it will get some light from star.
The answer to the third question was already provided. You don't read/understand. See red text below.
It is basically the sun :sun: which is responsible for creating day and night , earth only helps it self by spreading this evenly.
Does God talk about day and night (in that particular aya )in reference to where you live on globe ?
Moreover what the fuss is all about ? It is a business between sun and the earth, Your friend MOON has got nothing to do with day and night.
siki
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 04:24:48 PM
Peace Hope,
Thank you for your question. In Arabic, the masculine and the feminine have the same meaning but the feminine can add some intensification. The Arabic word "kaab" has the same basic meaning as "kaaba". In Arabic the word "kaab" is used in expressions like "kaab al-wadi" to mean "the base of the valley" and in "kaab al-hithaa" to mean "the base of the shoe". So the word "kaab" essentially means "base". The "base" being a safe place for gathering is a well-known universal concept that everyone understands, including children who play hide and seek. On the other hand, there is nothing inherently safe or condusive to gathering about any cube, no matter how special.
Peace,
Ayman
Thank you Ayman for taking time out to answer. Sorry to everyone for going off topic.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: quickduck on September 13, 2009, 04:09:45 PM
i'd make to you a tutorial video if only i had time. Because you seem having big problems with plain text !
One more time, please how Old are you ?
You have no knowledge of earth sun moon relationship. Sun produces light, it does not decide who gets the light. Just like if you going to a light shield room. You decided to deprive yourself of sunlight. The earth does the similar think in accordance with Gos's law. Get it. Other wise explain how the sun makes the decision as to who gets the sunlight.
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 04:33:07 PM
You have no knowledge of earth sun moon relationship. Sun produces light, it does not decide who gets the light. Just like if you going to a light shield room. You decided to deprive yourself of sunlight. The earth does the similar think in accordance with Gos's law. Get it. Other wise explain how the sun makes the decision as to who gets the sunlight.
let me repeat once again,
God talks about day and night in general , Not about the decision regarding who gets the light.
siki
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 04:33:07 PM
You have no knowledge of earth sun moon relationship. Sun produces light, it does not decide who gets the light. Just like if you going to a light shield room. You decided to deprive yourself of sunlight. The earth does the similar think in accordance with Gos's law. Get it. Other wise explain how the sun makes the decision as to who gets the sunlight.
Peace Guest
I think you and others are going off topic. The sun, moon and earth do not pick light or anything else. They are bodies in motion. The Earth orbits around the sun. The earth also spins on its axis. The moon orbits the Earth. God created the universe and everything in it and outside of it. I feel there are reasons why the earth orbits the sun, moon orbits the earth and why earth spins on its axis. You can argue that this is a natural cycle which determines our night and day as well as our seasons and calendars. I think most grown up people will know the general motions of these bodies and we can move on to main topic. Thank you. Please do not be offended.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 04:33:07 PM
You have no knowledge of earth sun moon relationship. Sun produces light, it does not decide who gets the light. Just like if you going to a light shield room. You decided to deprive yourself of sunlight. The earth does the similar think in accordance with Gos's law. Get it. Other wise explain how the sun makes the decision as to who gets the sunlight.
Light determines day and night.
Salam,
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :brickwall:
Quote from: guest on September 13, 2009, 04:19:12 PM
The answer to the first question is the earth decide which of its side gets the day and NOT the sun and the earth decide which of its gets the night NOT THE MOON.
The answer to the second question is dark earth, it will get some light from star NOT FROM MOON NOT FROM SUN (ouch wait a minute, is it sun also a star? :rotfl: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:.
then, where is your moon?
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 03:37:15 PM
Peace Belal,
This is because you didn't read them carefully.
Read line (iii) 4th word and line (ix) 4th word in Abraha's inscription. (warkh)
Read the sixth line, second word in the Raqush inscription. (yarkh)
Is this what do you call Arabic!!! You have lost your Brain...Can any one tell me if this looks like any writtings of Quran:
(http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/x-large/color_xl_jpeg/fig04.jpg)
Let us see if Free- Minds Moderators will do something about this
These are Ayman Evidence that Month does not mean Shahar but Warkhan:
m a'in d m / gh z w t n / r b a'in t n /
b w r kh n / z th b t n / k f s d w / k l / b n ya a'in m r m
Ma'ndam / Ghazwatn / rab'atan / b'warkhan / Zthbatan /Kafa saadu / kl/ bani amrm
against the tribe of Ma'ad ( in ) the battle of al-Rabiya in the
month of "Dhu al Thabithan" (April) and fight (against) all the (tribes) of Bani A'amir.
If Ayman saying the truth, Why non of the above Words has been used in Quran? Why the style of Writing (The way it looks) is not the same as the Quran?
CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT AYMAN IS MISLEADING YOU.
He knows that Shahar = Month in Arabic...And instead of admitting, he is quoting from Pagan Language that is not related to Arabic
I think I'm 100% that these guys are the followers of some Dark Side, which there main objective is to mislead Humans from God's Path.
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 04:24:48 PM
Peace Hope,
Thank you for your question. In Arabic, the masculine and the feminine have the same meaning but the feminine can add some intensification. The Arabic word "kaab" has the same basic meaning as "kaaba". In Arabic the word "kaab" is used in expressions like "kaab al-wadi" to mean "the base of the valley" and in "kaab al-hithaa" to mean "the base of the shoe". So the word "kaab" essentially means "base". The "base" being a safe place for gathering is a well-known universal concept that everyone understands, including children who play hide and seek. On the other hand, there is nothing inherently safe or condusive to gathering about any cube, no matter how special.
Peace,
Ayman
So your answer is: There is no Hajj nor a Place for Hajj.
If this is true, then I truly mean the following:
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
109:1 قل يأيها الكفرون
109:2 لا أعبد ما تعبدون
109:3 ولا أنتم عبدون ما أعبد
109:4 ولا أنا عابد ما عبدتم
109:5 ولا أنتم عبدون ما أعبد
109:6 لكم دينكم ولي دين
[/size]
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 07:00:50 PM
I think I'm 100% that these guys are the followers of some Dark Side, which there main objective is to mislead Humans from God's Path.
So now you share farida's accusations. you're not "out of it " anymore.
Ok, let me put this clear :
WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF A DARK SIDE ORGANISATION, AND WE ARE HERE TO MISLEAD HUMANS FROM GOD'S PATH. NOT ALL HUMANS, ONLY THE IDIOTS. SMART PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND FARIDA ALWAYS SEE IT COMING AND AVOID IT. BUT PLEASE, DONT TELL ANYONE AND LET US FINISH OUR JOB, IF WE DONT HIRE AT LEAST 10 IDIOTS PER DAY, WE WILL BE FIRED, AND NO ORGANISATION WILL ACCEPT US ANYMORE IN ANY OTHER JOB.
PLEASE I HAVE A FAMILY TO FEED. DONT RUIN MY LIFE !!!!!
Salam
Peace BelH,
stop being a drama queen, a few spoken languages have been known to change their scripts, even in contemporary times, like
Turkish...
and the Quran was revealed in the arabic tongue, and could be written by the way in any written arabic script...
Quote from: quickduck on September 13, 2009, 07:30:38 PM
WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF A DARK SIDE ORGANISATION, AND WE ARE HERE TO MISLEAD HUMANS FROM GOD'S PATH. NOT ALL HUMANS, ONLY THE IDIOTS. SMART PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND FARIDA ALWAYS SEE IT COMING AND AVOID IT. BUT PLEASE, DONT TELL ANYONE AND LET US FINISH OUR JOB, IF WE DONT HIRE AT LEAST 10 IDIOTS PER DAY, WE WILL BE FIRED, AND NO ORGANISATION WILL ACCEPT US ANYMORE IN ANY OTHER JOB.
PLEASE I HAVE A FAMILY TO FEED. DONT RUIN MY LIFE !!!!!
:rotfl: Who is darth vader? Who is Luke Skywalker? and I supose the idiots are the storm troopers :rotfl: :jedi:
May the force be with you and protect you all from the death star :jedi: :peace:
When did this thread get out of hand lol :giveup:
Peace
Hope
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 06:46:03 PM
(http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/x-large/color_xl_jpeg/fig04.jpg)
Peace,
The above language, which Ayman used to refute that the Arabic meaning of month is Shahar, contains the following words:
Begin Quote
w yement / wa r'a rab hamw / Twadam / w thamat / satro / zn / satran / K'ghazow
Ma'ndam / Ghazwatn / rab'atan / b'warkhan / Zthbatan /Kafa saadu / kl/ bani amrm
Wazaki/ malikn/ abjabar / b ainam/ kadat/ wain/ w basharm / bin hasahanm/ bainm
San dam/ wa mardam / wa hadaru/ qadami / jayshan/
alia bani yamram/ kadat/ wail/ b wad /samrakh / wa mardam/ wa sadam/ b wad..
B manhaj / tarban/ w zabahow / wa sarw /
w ghanamw / zaisam / wa makhdah/ malakin/ b halban/ wa danw
Ka zalam/ maidam / wrahanw / wa badanahaw /
nwa sa'aham mw / amram / bin/ mazran.
Wa rahanamw / bin haw / wa sata khalafw / ala/ ma'dam/ wa qafalw/ bin/ hal.
( bi)n / (b) akhayal / rahman / wa rakhaw / zalan / salthany / w sathya/ ws
End Quote
Can anyone, including Ayman and his followers, quote any of the above words in Quran...If you cannot, and you will not, then would this make you feel that Ayman is underestimating your intelligence by claiming that the above language is Authantic Arabic like the Quran Language.
:rotfl:
This is stupidity as it can be... :rotfl:
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 08:09:56 PM
Peace BelH,
stop being a drama queen, a few spoken languages have been known to change their scripts, even in contemporary times, like
Turkish...
and the Quran was revealed in the arabic tongue, and could be written by the way in any written arabic script...
Peace,
How long did it take for it to change to this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Qur%27anic_Manuscript_-_3_-_Hijazi_script.jpg/494px-Qur%27anic_Manuscript_-_3_-_Hijazi_script.jpg)
That is a quite change between the above and what Ayman posted:
(http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/x-large/color_xl_jpeg/fig04.jpg)
peace belH
this looks to me like a genealogical tree, so with people's names i need more samples with actual text renderings of actual descriptions
to make a final judgment.
here you are just questioning a pre-islamic exhibit whether it is the arabic tongue or not, right?
regarding the actual logic and rationality of the luni-solar calendar, i believe it is pretty impressive, and can only be divine, not satanic
as you try to suggest.
besides, you call us Ayman followers, but you seem to be a Layth follower regarding other matters? are you not?
i think you are very much emotionally attached to the traditional ramadan mythology, that is why you and those like you defend it
so fiercely, throwing out all kinds of desperate excuses, even going as far as using character assassination, this was a ploy used by disbelievers against Messengers, so you are not in good company, sorry...
err...
now for what i do not accept...
ka'aba in the part of the world i spent my formative years in (sahara desert), in arabic tribal sahraoui, reckoned to be very close to the pure Arabic tongue, ka'aba refers to a swelling, or something that has form/shape, and the rock in the dome of the rock in Jerusalem, together with other clues in the Qur'an fits that very well. (off topic) ;)
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 09:20:16 PM
peace belH
this looks to me like a genealogical tree, so with people's names i need more samples with actual text renderings of actual descriptions
to make a final judgment.
here you are just questioning a pre-islamic exhibit whether it is the arabic tongue or not, right?
If you truly wants to know what is the pre-islamic arabic, study this--Jesus Language, Aramic.
(http://www.syriatourism.org/servers/gallery/19358.jpg)
(http://sepehr.mohamadi.name/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/aat_table.jpg)
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:17:49 PM
So do you think that the god chooses his words in an arbitrary way and that the clear Arabic meaning of the word "ramadhan" doesn't matter. The god could have just as well said "XYZ" or any meaningless label? It is abantantly clear that you cannot understand when "shahr ramadhan" occurs without understanding the key word "ramadhan". This is the minimum required for any understanding.
Perpetual straw-man arguments ? ?so do you think? then overlay your thoughts as being mine. Read context, was responding to your accusation of making fun using the word ?hot? which you use ?scorching? and called this thread Hot/"ramadan".
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:17:49 PM
The first quote is probably an older post of mine. I later realized that there is a difference between "shahad" and "shahad an". The first "shahad" always involves physically witnessing. If you understood my second post then you would have seen that the blind can fast and so can you if it is too cloudy but you wouldn't be obligated to. There is nothing that says that anyone CANNOT fast.
Unlike 2:185, where is the word "witness" in the above?
That is issuing a fatwa -- the blind and those in cloudy weather are NOT obligated to fast.
Qur?an has a provision for those not able; e.g. feed the poor or today, had acid indigestion, auto reacted, reached for a glass of water, realized too late and broke my fast; no big deal hope to make it up another day same as a few days missed due to being ?under the weather.?
You refuted and contradicted yourself in countless earlier posts and threads?
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2005, 07:55:45 PM
According to 2:185, fasting is for those who witnessed the scorching full-moon. You didn't witness it so you don't need to make up anything.
Peace,
Ayman
Suggest a re-write a new thread ?Hot/Ramadan II? since this topic is all over the place and cluttered.
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:17:49 PM
See the following example:
http://wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunting/hunting_dates_and_seasons.htm
Note that hunting season is in the spring or the fall and winter. There is no hunting at all in the summer.
You changed your mind on this too as you did with hajj (debate/feast) which your current restriction varies approximately from June/July 21 to Sept/Oct 18 depending on the year?
21-Jun
21-Jul
20-Aug
18-Sep
18-Oct
April 25 - 26, 2009 Youth turkey-hunting weekend ?
No Protection!May 3 - May 31 Spring gobbler season (wild turkey) ?
No Protection!Sept. 1 - November 24, 2009 Black bear/end dates vary for method ?
No Protection 1-2 months!Sept. 2009 - Jan. 2010 Waterfowl/dates vary by species and zone ?
No Protection 3 months!Sept. 26-27, 2009 Youth waterfowl weekend (Saturday and Sunday)
Sept. 15 - Dec. 15 Deer/archery ?
No Protection 2 months!Sept. 15 - Dec. 15 Fall turkey/archery ?
No Protection 2 months!Oct. 12 - Oct. 16, 2009 Fall turkey/shotgun (in certain WMUs only); Monday ? Friday
Sept. 2009 - March 2010 Small game/dates vary by species and region ?
No Protection!Oct. 1 - Dec. 31 Pheasant ?
No Protection!Oct. 17 - Oct. 25 Moose (by permit only) ?
No Protection!Oct. 24 - 25 Youth deer-hunting weekend ?
No Protection!Oct. 31 - Nov. 10 Deer/muzzleloader (note -- opens Nov. 2 in WMU A) ?
No Protection!Nov. 11 - Dec. 6 Deer/firearms (note -- closes Nov. 29 in WMU A) ?
No Protection!Also see prior post?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 10, 2009, 02:10:23 AM
Established is that this is the easiest to refute; taken from the first few posts...
Quote from: ayman on September 12, 2009, 10:17:49 PM
I agree. However, the hunting restriction is not about killing as a sport it is about killing for food. This is why we are told that we can eat seafood and livestock as an alternative.
Absolutely agree, find it appalling the worst of disbelief including the mindless ocean/sea hunting to feed people?s fetishes/appetite for the exotic and renewed my Greenpeace membership today which was doubled by a most generous supporter.
6:38 And (there is) not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor (a) bird (that) flies with its two wings, except (they are) nations امثالكم similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.
Peace and best wishes,
Holiday/Eid
Peace all,
Here is a study about the Month calculation in the Bible and the Torah (retrieved from http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml)
Please note how the Bible verses are the same as the Quranic (I will highlight in red)
The New Moon
in the Hebrew Bible
The Biblical month begins with the crescent New Moon, also called First Visible Sliver. The Hebrew word for month (Hodesh) literally means New Moon and only by extension the period between one New Moon and the next.
The Rabbanite Midrash relates that when God said to Moses "This month (HODESH) shall be for you the beginning of months" (Ex 12,2) the Almighty pointed up into the heavens at the crescent New Moon and said "When you see like this, sanctify! [=declare New Moon day]". This Rabbinic fairy-tale highlights an important point, namely that the Bible never comes out and says we should determine the beginning of months based on the New Moon. The reason for this is that the term for "Month" (Hodesh) itself implies that the month begins with the crescent New Moon. As will be seen, this would have been obvious to any ancient Israelite present when Moses recited the prophecies of YHWH to the Children of Israel and therefore there was no need to elucidate this concept any more than such terms as "light" or "dark". However, due to the long exile, we have lost the use of Biblical Hebrew in day to day speech. Therefore, we will have to reconstruct the meaning of Hodesh from the usage of the word in the Biblical text using sound linguistic principles.
He Created the Moon for Holidays
There can be no doubt that the biblical Holidays are dependent on the moon. The strongest proof of this is the passage in Ps 104,19 which declares:
"He created the moon for Mo'adim [appointed times]"
The Hebrew term Mo'adim [appointed times] is the same word used to describe the Biblical Holidays. Leviticus 23, which contains a catalogue of the Biblical Holidays opens with the statement: "These are the Mo'adim [appointed times] of YHWH, holy convocations which you shall proclaim in their appointed times [Mo'adam].". So when the Psalmist tells us that God created the moon for Mo'adim [appointed times] he means that the moon was created to determine the time of the Mo'adim of YHWH, that is, the Biblical Holidays.
"Hodesh" Is Related To the Moon
The above verse clearly teaches us that the holidays are related to the moon. But when the Torah was given Ps 104 had not yet been written by the Levitical prophets, and the question still remains of how the ancient Israelites could have known this. The answer is that the Hebrew word for month (Hodesh) itself indicates a connection to the moon. We can see this connection in a number of instances in which Hodesh (month) is used interchangeably with the word "Yerah", the common Biblical Hebrew word for moon, which by extension also means "month". For example:
"...in the month (Yerah) of Ziv,
which is the Second month (Hodesh)..." (1Kings 6,1)
"...in the month (Yerah) of Ethanim... which is the Seventh month (Hodesh)..." (1Kings 8,2)
Another proof that Hodesh is related to the moon (Yerah) is the phrase "A Hodesh (month) of days" (Gen 29,14; Nu 11,20-21) [meaning a period of 29 or 30 days] which is equivalent to the phrase "A Yerah (month/ moon) of days" (Dt 21,13; 2Ki 15,13). Clearly then Hodesh is related to "Yerah", which itself literally means "moon".
"Hodesh" Means New Moon (Day)
The primary meaning of Hodesh (month) is actually "New Moon" or "New Moon Day" and it is only by extension that it came to mean "month", that is, the period between one New Moon and the next. This primary meaning is preserved in a number of passages such as 1Sam 20,5 in which Jonathan says to David "Tomorrow is the New Moon (Hodesh)". Clearly, in this verse Hodesh is used to refer to the specific day on which the month begins and not the entire month. Another passage which uses Hodesh in its primary sense is Ez 46,1 which talks about "The Day (Yom) of the New Moon (Ha-Hodesh)". Clearly in this verse Hodesh (New Moon) is a specific event and the beginning of the month is the day on which this event (New Moon) occurs.
The Biblical New Moon is the "First Crescent"
"Hodesh" (New Moon), is derived from the root H.D.SH. meaning "new" or "to make new/ renew". The Crescent New Moon is called Hodesh because it is the first time the moon is seen anew after being concealed for several days at the end of the lunar cycle. At the end of the lunar month the moon is close to the sun 1 and eventually reaches the point of "conjunction" when it passes between the Sun and the Earth.2 As a result, around the time of conjunction very little of the moon's illuminated surface faces the Earth and it is not visible through the infinitely brighter glare of the sun. After the moon moves past the sun it continues towards the opposite side of the Earth. As it gets farther away from the sun the percentage of its illuminated surface facing the Earth increases and one evening shortly after sunset the moon is seen anew after being invisible for 1.5-3.5 days. Because the moon is seen anew after a period of invisibility the ancients called it a "New Moon" or "Hodesh" (from Hadash meaning "new").
Crescent New Moon vs. Astronomical New Moon
Many people have been led astray by the inaccurate use in modern languages of the term "New Moon". Modern astronomers adopted this otherwise unused term, which had always referred to the first visible sliver, and used it to refer to conjunction (when the Moon passes between the Earth and the Sun, at which time it is not visible). The astronomers soon realized that the inaccurate use of "New Moon" to refer to conjunction would lead to confusion so to be more accurate scientists now distinguish between "Astronomical New Moon" and "Crescent New Moon". "Astronomical New Moon" means New Moon as the term is used by astronomers, i.e. conjunction. In contrast, "Crescent New Moon" uses the term in the original meaning of the first visible sliver. A good English dictionary should reflect both meanings. For example, the Random House Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged Edition defines New Moon as: "The moon either when in conjunction with the sun or soon after being either invisible [Astronomical New Moon] or visible [Crescent New Moon] only as a slender crescent." (square brackets added by NG).
The Supposed Evidence For "Concealed Moon"
Having been confused by the use of the term New Moon in modern astronomy some people have sought Biblical support for this incorrect meaning of the term. Ps 81,3 [Heb. 81,4] is usually cited which says:
"Blow on a horn for the Hodesh (New Moon)
On the Keseh (Full Moon) for the Day of our Hag (Feast)."
According to the "Concealed Moon Theory", the term "Keseh" is derived from the root K.S.Y. meaning "to cover" and thus means "covered moon" or "concealed moon". According to this interpretation, when the verse says to blow on a horn on the day of Keseh it actually means "[blow on a horn] on the day of Concealed Moon". However, the language does not support this argument for the second half of the verse also refers to the day of Keseh as "the day of our Feast (Hag)". In the Bible, Feast (Hag) is a technical term which always refers to the three annual pilgrimage-feasts (Matzot, Shavuot, Sukkot; see Ex 23; Ex 34).3 New Moon Day (Hodesh) is never classified as a "Pilgrimage-Feast" so Keseh/ Hag can not possibly be synonymous with New Moon Day (Hodesh). It has further been suggested that Keseh refers to the Biblical holiday of Yom Teruah (Day of Shouting), which always falls out on New Moon Day. However, the Bible describes Yom Teruah as a Moed (appointed time) and never as a Hag (Pilgrimage-Feast) so Keseh/ Hag can not refer to Yom Teruah either.
What Does Keseh Really Mean?
It is likely that Keseh is related to the Aramaic word "Kista" and the Assyrian word "Kuseu" which mean "full moon" (see Brown-Driver-Briggs p.490b) [Hebrew, Aramaic, and Assyrian are all Semitic languages and often share common roots]. This fits in perfectly with the description of Keseh as the day of the Hag since two of the three Pilgrimage-Feasts (Hag HaMatzot and Hag HaSukkot) are on the 15th of the month, which is about the time of the Full Moon!
More on "Concealed Moon"
Another point to consider is that there is no actual "day" of concealed moon. In fact the moon stays concealed anywhere from 1.5 to 3.5 days in the Middle East. It has been proposed that the "day" of concealed moon is actually the day of conjunction (when the moon passes between the Earth and Sun). However, it was only 1000 years after Moses that the Babylonian astronomers discovered how to calculate the moment of conjunction. Therefore, the ancient Israelites would have had no way of knowing when the moment of conjunction takes place and would not have known on which day to observe "Concealed Moon Day".
It has been suggested that the ancient Israelites could have looked at the "Old Moon" and determined the Day of Conjunction by when the Old Moon was no longer visible in the morning sky. However, such a method would not work in the Middle East where the so-called "concealed moon" can remain concealed for as many as 3.5 days! It is in fact common for the moon to stay concealed for 2.5 days and in such instances how would the ancient Israelites have known which day was the Day of Conjunction?
In contrast, the ancient Israelites would have been well aware of the Crescent New Moon. In ancient societies people worked from dawn to dusk and they would have noticed the Old Moon getting smaller and smaller in the morning sky. When the morning moon had disappeared the ancient Israelites would have anxiously awaited its reappearance 1.5-3.5 days later in the evening sky. Having disappeared for several days and then appearing anew in the early evening sky they would have called it the "New Moon" or "Hodesh" (from Hadash meaning "New").
Note 1: From the perspective of an observer on Earth. Back
Note 2: I.e. it is on the same plane as the Sun and the Earth. Back
Note 3: see BDB pp.290b-291a. Even in the few instances where Hag does not refer to the three Biblical Pilgrimage-Feasts, it refers to non-Biblical pilgrimage-feasts. For example, in Judges 21,19 Hag refers to the annual pilgrimage-feast held around the shrine of Shiloh. Also, in Exodus 10,9 Moses tells Pharaoh that the Israelites must leave Egypt to celebrate a Hag to YHWH in the desert, which clearly is a pilgrimage-feast. It is worth noting that Moses says that they have a Hag, meaning they must make a pilgrimage, in this case to Mt. Sinai, and thus they must leave Egypt in order to observe the Hag properly. Back
Peace belH,
thank you for the info, but i didn't ask for it.
what i know is that it is easy to refute, and hard to build an argument.
we are amateurs, and in many cases we use our emotions, and sometimes we even use mind reading of Allah's as proof,
as if we could do so, may He have Mercy on us, when he warns us that He is unlike any-being we know!
What I find terrible are the "Scholars" attitudes, they are amateurs too, what kind of Knowledge is that which they have
when they carry the corpus of people whose lives were governed by superstition and pleasing their Rulers, because this
is what has survived.
Why did the Mongols kill all the Scholars in Baghdad and played making pyramids with their skulls, why didn't Allah help,
because that was the beginning of the end of the Islamic Civilization that had stopped being Islamic, because it strayed
from Allah's guidance. This same happened in Spain where the Moors were kicked out too, a bit later on.
Read the Signs of Allah in the Quran and the environment. The past Muslims have gone, they made their mistakes, and we won't
be made accountable for their mistakes, and they won't be made accountable for ours.
This is written several times in the Quran for previous communities, we need to adapt it.
If we make the same mistakes, we will get the same fate. The Ottoman empire was a second chance, but they squandered it.
I will not start on the jihadist, they are an abomination created to make sure Islam never gains any credibility.
But having Scholars like the ones we have now, ignorant, stupid, stubborn, narrow minded, incapable of learning from the past, Islam will never ever gain credibility, unless Allah as he said will find another community who will be better than these sectarians and who will be the new peacekeepers on earth.
This month/year/ramadan issue is a small issue.
The true Scholars are the ones who when they read the Quran make things happen (remember the one who could outsmart the Jinn Ifriit)...
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 10:12:10 PM
Peace belH,
thank you for the info, but i didn't ask for it.
what i know is that it is easy to refute, and hard to build an argument.
we are amateurs, and in many cases we use our emotions, and sometimes we even use mind reading of Allah's as proof,
as if we could do so, may He have Mercy on us, when he warns us that He is unlike any-being we know!
What I find terrible are the "Scholars" attitudes, they are amateurs too, what kind of Knowledge is that which they have
when they carry the corpus of people whose lives were governed by superstition and pleasing their Rulers, because this
is what has survived.
Why did the Mongols kill all the Scholars in Baghdad and played making pyramids with their skulls, why didn't Allah help,
because that was the beginning of the end of the Islamic Civilization that had stopped being Islamic, because it strayed
from Allah's guidance. This same happened in Spain where the Moors were kicked out too, a bit later on.
Read the Signs of Allah in the Quran and the environment. The past Muslims have gone, they made their mistakes, and we won't
be made accountable for their mistakes, and they won't be made accountable for ours.
This is written several times in the Quran for previous communities, we need to adapt it.
If we make the same mistakes, we will get the same fate. The Ottoman empire was a second chance, but they squandered it.
I will not start on the jihadist, they are an abomination created to make sure Islam never gains any credibility.
But having Scholars like the ones we have now, ignorant, stupid, stubborn, narrow minded, incapable of learning from the past, Islam will never ever gain credibility, unless Allah as he said will find another community who will be better than these sectarians and who will be the new peacekeepers on earth.
This month/year/ramadan issue is a small issue.
The true Scholars are the ones who when they read the Quran make things happen (remember the one who could outsmart the Jinn Ifriit)...
Peace,
Agree with all the above.
Do not Forget that WE SHALL CONFRONT LIES AND SPREAD THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD.
What Ayman is Spreading are LIES, and therefore, We Shall Confront it and Spread the Truth about Fasting and Month Calculation. As we note, Today's Christians and Jews have abandon the Lunar Calendar and adopted Solar-Lunar Calender, which is the same as Ayman is proposing. And now, according to Ayman, it is our turn to follow their footstep...This is not a small issue as you said, but it is a great issue for us.
:)
Peace belH
us WHO?
I didn't know you were the spokesperson to any particular organisation?
Well count me out as I am 100% independent.
The Bible is not a 100% valid source of guidance.
The Quran supersedes all previous books.
A Calendar is man made and has everything to do with whom set it up.
Natural phenomenon were what Middle East Nomads and Farmers used to keep track
of the seasons and the passage of time, and all along in the Quran, Allah swears with Natural
Bodies / Events / Phenomena, and connecting many to the Practice of Islam.
Why are you in your stubbornness wanting to argue using semantics and philology which are
sophist masturbatory human constructs that the Greeks were experts at,
arguing ad-nauseum about a subject they know little about to wear out their proponents into accepting their views...
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 10:58:36 PM
Peace belH
us WHO?
We are trying to be of those who order what our Lord have taught us in the Books, and Prohibit what Our Lord has not prescribed in His Books.
And not of those whom God spoke about in the following:
The hypocrite males and the hypocrite females, they are to each other. They order what were not prescribed and prohibit were prescribed (In the Books), and they close their hands. They forgot God, so He will forget them; indeed, the hypocrites are the wicked.
9:67 المنفقون والمنفقت بعضهم من بعض يأمرون بالمنكر وينهون عن المعروف ويقبضون أيديهم نسوا الله فنسيهم إن المنفقين هم الفسقون
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 10:58:36 PM
Why are you in your stubbornness wanting to argue using semantics
:rotfl: how about the one .who is arguing using Pagan Language to Refute that the Shahar = Month; After all, as our Lord ordered us, we shall believe in the Quran, the Bible and the Torah.
If you want to Judge, please be fare...After all, you have said you are independent and not of those who worship Ayman and want to Market His Image as the Smartest of all when He is the opposite.
;)
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:19:07 PM
1. Southern/Central Arabian dialect (see ?warkh? used to mean month):
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
2. Northern Arabian dialect (see ?yarkh? used to mean month):
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Also, please note that none of the Pre-Islamic inscriptions mention any of the sectarian months? names.
This is the true Pre-islamic scripts--The Aramic Language Script, The True Bible...Please note the similarities between the ARABIC and ARAMIC
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RrFTRNcWhxk/SkWLxor5i1I/AAAAAAAAAPU/H9fqYexKz3c/s400/0626_bible_398w_right_side_up.jpg)
(http://www.schoyencollection.com/aram-heb-syr_files/ms036.jpg)
(http://www.barefootsworld.net/images/slotae.gif)
Peace belH,
no not the Bible,
Leaves of Abraham, Torah to Moses, Psalms to David, The Gospel to Jesus, these are what Allah
wants us to be aware of and be concerned about, why, maybe one day we will know.
The Bible contains accounts of the above well after they were revealed, so be careful with your quotes too.
Ayman like you, me, and many others, and because we are in a forum, and not writing in a scientific journal
(though in my view, since we are talking about matters as serious as the Divine, we should be doubly serious),
especially when we get emotional, do not always check out our sources properly, this is called wishful thinking.
Language has nothing to do with ideology, pagan or not, or scripture of it depends on where the tribe in question
acquired the script which they used as a convenient form to convey their spoken tongue.
Abraham is quoted as having spoken chaldeen or sumerian for which there are different scripts which are according
to your definition pagan, because the people of Sumer were pagans. Do not misquote me on this, I am not an expert historian.
You have a misconception that the script of a language defines the religious inclination, or ideology of those who use it, or even their tongue, it does not, just look nowadays around you, jewish persians using arabic scripts, jewish sefarids in the past century using arabic scripts, they were not muslims, same arabic christian catholic who did not use arabic scripts but used latin tongue for their ceremony, etc...
Do not get confused... you cannot say a Pagan language as you cannot say a stupid language, and it has nothing to do with the language in your case, you were referring to the script, as for the language, the same applies, people of different language (ie speaking tongues) can have different ideologies (pagan or not)...
Will you now please become more rational, logical, human :)
Quote from: theNabster on September 13, 2009, 11:51:49 PM
Peace belH,
no not the Bible,
Leaves of Abraham, Torah to Moses, Psalms to David, The Gospel to Jesus, these are what Allah
wants us to be aware of and be concerned about, why, maybe one day we will know.
The Bible contains accounts of the above well after they were revealed, so be careful with your quotes too.
Ayman like you, me, and many others, and because we are in a forum, and not writing in a scientific journal
(though in my view, since we are talking about matters as serious as the Divine, we should be doubly serious),
especially when we get emotional, do not always check out our sources properly, this is called wishful thinking.
Language has nothing to do with ideology, pagan or not, or scripture of it depends on where the tribe in question
acquired the script which they used as a convenient form to convey their spoken tongue.
Abraham is quoted as having spoken chaldeen or sumerian for which there are different scripts which are according
to your definition pagan, because the people of Sumer were pagans. Do not misquote me on this, I am not an expert historian.
You have a misconception that the script of a language defines the religious inclination, or ideology of those who use it, or even their tongue, it does not, just look nowadays around you, jewish persians using arabic scripts, jewish sefarids in the past century using arabic scripts, they were not muslims, same arabic christian catholic who did not use arabic scripts but used latin tongue for their ceremony, etc...
Do not get confused... you cannot say a Pagan language as you cannot say a stupid language, and it has nothing to do with the language in your case, you were referring to the script, as for the language, the same applies, people of different language (ie speaking tongues) can have different ideologies (pagan or not)...
Will you now please become more rational, logical, human :)
Peace,
Thank you for the advise, which should be said to Ayman as well, espacially, He was the one who used the pre-islamic language issue to refute the meaning of Shahar.
Now, Can you tell us, What is the Arabic Word that is equal to the English Word "Month"
I hope you will take into account your valuable advise when answering this Important Question.
May God Lead and Bless those who are seeking His Truth.
Peace
Peace belH
in the Arabic I was brought up in, shahr means month.
i was also brought up using a solar calendar, never using the lunar calendar.
i was aware of the hijri calendar which i also never used, but whom religious people
referred to for religious events such as Ashoura, fasting Ramadan, Hajj, etc.
they still used the solar calendar for their day to day and all of their business lives.
For me I found it very odd, I wish I could have asked my father who was a Qadhi (ie an Islamic Judge), but he was dead
when I showed an interest in the matter.
At the time I was reading the Quran, and didn't realise the existence of another corpus the hadith and sunnah until much later,
so I lived a very sheltered life, and I am very grateful to Allah and my parents for that.
I found the Quran very self sufficient, and I was learning Islam this way, until I had the misfortune to meet a sectarian...
(i could as well say safely a satanist, because this is what I believe those who advocate forcefully their ideology actually are, and despite not being a believer in the relevance of Hadith, there is a great one on this, where one day the majority of the members of the Ummah will see Hell Fire, and will think it is Paradise, and run away towards it, and will see Paradise and will think it is Hell Fire and will run away from it - hadith like these make me wonder that maybe a few of them are after all Sahih)...
but that is veering off topic...
Good luck in your debunking Mr belH you will need it
Peace
Noble
Belh
You seem quiet intelligent, but why cant you seem to grasp a simple thing,
Month is a time period between two shahrs , and as this is not fixed, so God does not use it , because, if he tells you to carry out something for , let us say two months,
How many days would you count ? 58,59,or 60?
You see above, that would create confusion in your mind, and you know God , and Quran, HE/ IT does not create/leave any confusion for us.
siki
Salaam,
Dear Ayman or anyone who can share the knowledge,
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 04:24:48 PM
..The Arabic word "kaab" has the same basic meaning as "kaaba". In Arabic the word "kaab" is used in expressions like "kaab al-wadi" to mean "the base of the valley" and in "kaab al-hithaa" to mean "the base of the shoe". So the word "kaab" essentially means "base"..
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ
إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ
إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ Need clarification on word
"Ka3bain" (Dual - "Base" or "Ankle" ?) as in 5:6 above.
May I know the difference between
"maraafiq" vs
"maraafiqain". What statement that we could deduce from this wording structure. Apology if this have been discussed before becoz couldnt find it.
Peace, Ashraf
Quote from: Ashraf on September 14, 2009, 01:35:15 AM
Salaam,
Dear Ayman or anyone who can share the knowledge,
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ
وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ
Need clarification on word "Ka3bain" (Dual - "Base" or "Ankle" ?) as in 5:6 above.
May I know the difference between "maraafiq" vs "maraafiqain". What statement that we could deduce from this wording structure. Apology if this have been discussed before becoz couldnt find it.
Peace, Ashraf
I suggest , that this should be asked and discussed in appropriate thread.
siki
Quote from: Samia on September 08, 2009, 07:19:49 PM
Here is a verse for you:
2:203:
وَاذْكُرُواْ اللّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْدُودَاتٍ فَمَن تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَن تَأَخَّرَ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ لِمَنِ اتَّقَى وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ
And remember God in a few days . But if any one hastens to leave in two days, there is no blame on him, and if any one stays on, there is no blame on him, if his aim is to do right. Then fear God, and know that you will surely be gathered unto Him.
It's clear from this verse that less than "ma3doodat" will be 2.
OK.This time I am off this topic of "ma3dood/ma3doodat". Sorry if I refrain from responding to you next time.
You do not ask to learn, but to argue. I do not have time for that.
Dear Samia,
I want to learn and hope you dont mind to reply :)
Is it wrong if i understand the verse 2:203 as follows:
Minimum "ma3doodat" >>> two days
Maximum "ma3doodat" >>> varies (3 or 4 or 7 etc) but preferably 10, however 10 is not a mandatory.
The only 10 that I consider a preferred count was just my understanding base on "hint" in 2:196 and 89:2. (is there anything else?)
However 10 days in 2:196 is for hajj
I am not sure whether I can overconfidantly say so that 10 days apply to Ramadhan as well.
My understanding at this moment is that Allah give His mercy (leeway) for us to decide the max no of days to our personal preference/ability this time around, but minimum is two. (This stand is still subject to debate/correction)
On other note Allah is very specific with the number of siyaam ie. 3 days (5:89), 10 days (2:196). Any feedback appreciated.
Peace, Ashraf
Peace siki,
Quote from: siki on September 14, 2009, 01:29:46 AM
Month is a time period between two shahrs , and as this is not fixed, so God does not use it , because, if he tells you to carry out something for , let us say two months,
How many days would you count ? 58,59,or 60?
You see above, that would create confusion in your mind, and you know God , and Quran, HE/ IT does not create/leave any confusion for us.
60 dawns to sunsets (days Qur?an); .061 or 1.4hrs includes the 60th dawn; 2 lunar months = 59.06118 days (24hrs).
Oldest lunar calendar identified: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/975360.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/975000/images/_975360_las300a.jpg)
Now your turn ? how many days are they free to travel from the day of proclamation?
9:2 فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin (full moons according to you)?
9:3 واذان And proclamation من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الناس the people يوم (on) day الحج the hajj الاكبر the greatest?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 14, 2009, 04:11:22 AM
Peace siki,
60 dawns to sunsets (days Qur?an); .061 or 1.4hrs includes the 60th dawn; 2 lunar months = 59.06118 days (24hrs).
Oldest lunar calendar identified: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/975360.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/975000/images/_975360_las300a.jpg)
Now your turn ? how many days are they free to travel from the day of proclamation?
9:2 فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin (full moons according to you)?
9:3 واذان And proclamation من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الناس the people يوم (on) day الحج the hajj الاكبر the greatest?
where/what is your criteria for making a month as of 30 days?
siki
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:35:58 PM
The day and night are determined by the sun and they have nothing to do with the moon.
The sun does not decide where on earth the day should be. It simply emits light in all direction at all time. In order for the sun to decide the location of day on earth it will have to go around the earth. And we know this is not true. If it were then we would have a chaotic solar system. Unfortunately, Ayman insists on sun going around the earth to satisfy his faulty concept in the quote. Ayman is trying very hard to disprove God?s system. He is trying to eliminate the truth. He will not succeed. The God has exposed his hypocrisy and exposed his blind follower quickduck and siki.
The statement in the above quote qualifies Ayman as the most ignorant and unintelligent person of the world. Ayman, you are hereby entered in the Guinness World Records as the most foolish person. You need to frame the quote and hang it on the wall of your living room.
I will use an example to illustrate the situation at hand.
Take a white round ball and call it the earth. And take laser pointer, fixed it at an angle and call it the sunlight (red laser light)
Now bring the white ball under the laser so that laser spot can be seen on the ball. We will call this lighted area the location of day on earth. If the earth did not move on its axis then we will have a fixed location day on earth at all time.
Now rotate the ball clockwise or counterclockwise and you will notice the location of day on earth is different than the initial position. Now who is determining the location of day on earth? The earth and definitely not the sun. Sunlight is necessary but the sun makes no decision.
If you turn the laser off then the whole earth is dark (night). And when you turn the laser on again we find portion of the earth is still dark (night). Therefore, sun does not make night. Ayman violates this phenomenon when he says sun determined the night. Sunlight just eliminates a portion of earth?s darkness as determined by the earth (not sun)
If sun determines who get the light then how does the sun decide to give light to a deep underground facility. Also the effect of dark cloud needs to be explained.
Now case 2: the sun determines the location of day on earth:
Take the laser light (sun) and move around the ball (earth) and you will see the location of day on earth is changing. This is sun determining day (not night). This is what Ayman is proposing. We all know this is false except Ayman, quickduck and siki, etc.
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 03:42:58 PM
Peace everyone,
QuoteQuote from: guest on Yesterday at 07:57:18 PM
The sun does not determine day or night. Its job is to generate and emit light, period. The earth makes day by presenting parts of itself to the sun. The part that is hidden from the sun in night.
As everyone can see from his own contradictory words, Guest is either a hypocrite, mentally challenged or both (most likely).
Peace,
Ayman
Here are some key points that can be inferred from your response:
1. If you can detect a contradiction then you wouldn?t be making a contradiction. The fact is: each and ever posts of yours has numerous contradiction. Just based on that logic, you claim of contradiction in my statement is nullified. You see, the contradiction pool is exhausted by you, you have used it all up, and there is nothing left for us to use. Thank you
2. Your focus is not finding the truth, you want people to glorify you and sing your song. Unless you change this behavior for the good, you will be humiliated in this world and a far worst awaits you in the hereafter
3. And when you said ?Guest is either a hypocrite, mentally challenged or both (most likely)?, you behaved like a bully who has just lost a fight. You do not comprehend a simple matter and refused to accept the truth. And you are an unappreciative person ( you don?t admit when someone corrects your error)
4. Now that you could not show the word sun in 17:12, and that the sun does not cause night, and that day is caused by earth?s rotation: what is your new hypocrisy? Please enlighten us, keep us informed
5. Pretty soon I will issue you another challenge (you did not take the first one), if you accept you will be doomed (because you are a liar), if you refuse it you become a master hypocrite. Please stay tune
theNabster, why aren?t you chastising Ayman for slandering? I will give you the benifit of doubt, maybe you haven't read the post yet.
Peace,
Quote from: quickduck on September 13, 2009, 04:09:45 PM
Quote from: guest on Yesterday at 08:53:08 PM
QuoteYou have a comprehension problem. You react without understanding a matter. This is why your concept and the article is flawed. The SUN does not decide where on earth the day is. It is determined by the earth. Hope you get this simple matter. Otherwise tell us how we get a day on earth.
i'd make to you a tutorial video if only i had time. Because you seem having big problems with plain text !
One more time, please how Old are you ?
Why don?t you produce your explanation of how the sun makes the decision as to who gets the sunlight. When Push Comes To Shove you hide behind women's skirt - Why are you afraid to explain your theory. Because you know you will self destruct yourself from your contradictory writing. Looks like you are the one having problem with simple statement.
Ayman says quack and you go quack, quack.
Quote from: guest on September 14, 2009, 08:24:05 AM
Peace,
The sun does not decide where on earth the day should be. It simply emits light in all direction at all time. In order for the sun to decide the location of day on earth it will have to go around the earth. And we know this is not true. If it were then we would have a chaotic solar system. Unfortunately, Ayman insists on sun going around the earth to satisfy his faulty concept in the quote. Ayman is trying very hard to disprove God?s system. He is trying to eliminate the truth. He will not succeed. The God has exposed his hypocrisy and exposed his blind follower quickduck and siki.
The statement in the above quote qualifies Ayman as the most ignorant and unintelligent person of the world. Ayman, you are hereby entered in the Guinness World Records as the most foolish person. You need to frame the quote and hang it on the wall of your living room.
I will use an example to illustrate the situation at hand.
Take a white round ball and call it the earth. And take laser pointer, fixed it at an angle and call it the sunlight (red laser light)
Now bring the white ball under the laser so that laser spot can be seen on the ball. We will call this lighted area the location of day on earth. If the earth did not move on its axis then we will have a fixed location day on earth at all time.
Now rotate the ball clockwise or counterclockwise and you will notice the location of day on earth is different than the initial position. Now who is determining the location of day on earth? The earth and definitely not the sun. Sunlight is necessary but the sun makes no decision.
If you turn the laser off then the whole earth is dark (night). And when you turn the laser on again we find portion of the earth is still dark (night). Therefore, sun does not make night. Ayman violates this phenomenon when he says sun determined the night. Sunlight just eliminates a portion of earth?s darkness as determined by the earth (not sun)
If sun determines who get the light then how does the sun decide to give light to a deep underground facility. Also the effect of dark cloud needs to be explained.
Now case 2: the sun determines the location of day on earth:
Take the laser light (sun) and move around the ball (earth) and you will see the location of day on earth is changing. This is sun determining day (not night). This is what Ayman is proposing. We all know this is false except Ayman, quickduck and siki, etc.
waw !!! brilliant !!! i really cannot find the word to thank you for clarifying this !! the sun is fixed and does'nt orbit around the earth !?? the earth orbits around its axis and around the sun ??!!! Amazing !!! But Beware ! the 16th century catholic church could condamn you and execute you for this heresy !
MY DEAR GUEST , YOU ARE BREAKING THROUGH AN OPEN DOOR !! No one in this thread discusses those elementary facts, as they are already known to my 5 years old child.
IT takes too much stupidity to teach college students that 1 + 1 = 2...Altough no one of them said that it equals 3. it's only on your mind...
We all are sure about what you tried to scream at us, but what you cannot understand, is that for ALL EARTH CREATURES, IT IS THE SUN THAT DECIDES ABOUT NIGHT AND AND DAY ON EARTH, WHETHER THIS EARTH SPINS OR NOT !!!! One question : can you feel the earth moving/spinning right now ?? if not, do you see the sun moving in the sky ?? if yes, so WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE ?? DO YOU WANT TO PROVE TO US THE SAME FACT THAT GALILEE WAS KILLED FOR ?? ARE YOU TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE, with YOUR INTELLIGENT LASER LIGHT AND WHITE BALLS, THE SAME THING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENT KNOW BY HEART ???
Once again, i ask you the same question :
HOW OLD ARE YOU ??Salam
DUMB & DUMBER is good movie , go watch it !!
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 10:36:28 AM
THE SAME THING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENT KNOW BY HEART ???
You just insulted your master Ayman, read his posts, he doesn't know THING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENT KNOW BY HEART.
And your and siki's questions imply: you guys don't know it either.
Peace,
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 10:36:28 AM
We all are sure about what you tried to scream at us, but what you cannot understand, is that for ALL EARTH CREATURES, IT IS THE SUN THAT DECIDES ABOUT NIGHT AND AND DAY ON EARTH, WHETHER THIS EARTH SPINS OR NOT !!!! One question : can you feel the earth moving/spinning right now ?? if not, do you see the sun moving in the sky ?? if yes, so WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE ?? DO YOU WANT TO PROVE TO US THE SAME FACT THAT GALILEE WAS KILLED FOR ?? ARE YOU TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE, with YOUR INTELLIGENT LASER LIGHT AND WHITE BALLS, THE SAME THING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENT KNOW BY HEART ???
Hey quickduck, why don?t you ask your master Ayman to take the following challenge or better yet why don?t you tell Ayman that he is wrong since you know as much as a fifth grade student.
Quote from: guest on September 08, 2009, 07:31:45 AM
Peace Ayman,
First you say the summer solstice full moon follows the lower path across the sky. This is your so called Ramadan theory.
Then you say the TWO full moons that took the lowest path are BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. You just contradicted yourself. Instead of admitting the mistake you took pride in modifying your lousy theory. This is crazy, unrighteous, and hypocritical.
Now as for ?This fact is so indisputable that I don't even need to check the data through the link about.? I will give you a challenge to determine how certain you are about the stated position. Here is the challenge: DO YOU AGREE TO WITHRAW YOUR ARTICLE AND APOLOGIZE TO US IF I PROVE YOU WRONG? Just give me the word and I will provide the evidence.
Peace guest (Ahmed B?)
i have no need for your doubt ;)
your replies are unconvincing and reactive.
the recurring themes in the Quran are those of patterns that obey rules, and in the case of a pure lunar calendar
the seasonal patterns are broken from one year to the next, that in itself is enough for me to discount it,
there are enough clues in the Quran to show that a luni-solar calendar is what Allah means when he says
the count of the year is twelve months.
You must take into account of the harvest periods, the farming periods, the planning for seasonal changes factoring in
droughts and irrigations, all need a calendar that is solar, the lunar part is used for the counting of the segmentation in between in months using lunar months and adjusting therewith.
This is a logical, rational system...
If we get the time line of the Prophet right, we will know for sure that luni-solar was correct, but wahabbism has made any
investigative attempts sacrilegious, go figure...
and please Mr guest stop name calling people, you are not the Prophet oki? for all intents and purposes, you might be
the guilty party here..., and by the way, nothing to be ashamed of, we all have an ego, and it tears us towards bad ways, you might be jealous of Ayman, who knows...
I wonder why, he gets a lot of stuff wrong, but at least he is not a coward, he discusses and challenges things, unlike being a sheep, and a follower to sheep mehhhh :)
Peace theNabster,
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
Peace guest (Ahmed B?)
What is this; I mean what?s in the bracket.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
your replies are unconvincing and reactive.
My replies are the truth to the best of my knowledge and consistent with the Quran. Maybe you cannot handle the truth. That is you problem.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
the recurring themes in the Quran are those of patterns that obey rules, and in the case of a pure lunar calendar
the seasonal patterns are broken from one year to the next, that in itself is enough for me to discount it,
Where is the verse that tells us that the religious rite has to be in synch with the seasons?
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
You must take into account of the harvest periods, the farming periods, the planning for seasonal changes factoring in
droughts and irrigations, all need a calendar that is solar, ..
Go ahead and use solar calendar for agriculture need. No one is preventing you from this. Just don?t mix the agriculture with the religion. It?s that simple.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
This is a logical, rational system...
Luni-solar is illogical and irrational system.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
please Mr guest stop name calling people, ??
Why aren?t you asking Ayman to do the same? Are you afraid of him or is he your idol?
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
you are not the Prophet oki?
I never claimed that I am a Prophet. You are a lying sick person. Maybe you are confusing me with your idol.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
all intents and purposes, you might be
the guilty party here...,
If you say following Quran without twisting its words = guilty then I am guilty.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
you might be jealous of Ayman, who knows...
Why, why, why,??What does he have other than lies and bad behavior. This is a mighty mistake on your part.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
I wonder why, he gets a lot of stuff wrong,
Why did satan got it wrong? The answer is pride and ego. This is a good observation on your part though.
Quote from: Ashraf on September 14, 2009, 02:48:43 AM
Dear Samia,
I want to learn and hope you dont mind to reply :)
Is it wrong if i understand the verse 2:203 as follows:
Minimum "ma3doodat" >>> two days
Maximum "ma3doodat" >>> varies (3 or 4 or 7 etc) but preferably 10, however 10 is not a mandatory.
The only 10 that I consider a preferred count was just my understanding base on "hint" in 2:196 and 89:2. (is there anything else?)
However 10 days in 2:196 is for hajj I am not sure whether I can overconfidantly say so that 10 days apply to Ramadhan as well.
My understanding at this moment is that Allah give His mercy (leeway) for us to decide the max no of days to our personal preference/ability this time around, but minimum is two. (This stand is still subject to debate/correction)
On other note Allah is very specific with the number of siyaam ie. 3 days (5:89), 10 days (2:196). Any feedback appreciated.
Peace, Ashraf
Welcome back! It's been almost a year... 8)
I wouldn't consider 2 as part of ma3duudat, since it's mentioned as an exception for special circumsatnces of what would be accepted outside the ma3duudaat.
Minimum of ma3duudat: 3
Maximum: 10
Peace,
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 13, 2009, 04:49:18 PM
Light determines day and night.
No, light (sunlight) only removes darkness/night from a object if the object expose itself to sunlight.
Darkness exist by itself.
Peace Ashraf,
Quote from: Ashraf on September 14, 2009, 01:35:15 AMDear Ayman or anyone who can share the knowledge,
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ
وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ
Need clarification on word "Ka3bain" (Dual - "Base" or "Ankle" ?) as in 5:6 above.
The base of the foot is the "heel" not the "ankle".
Quote from: Ashraf on September 14, 2009, 01:35:15 AMMay I know the difference between "maraafiq" vs "maraafiqain". What statement that we could deduce from this wording structure. Apology if this have been discussed before becoz couldnt find it.
Plural and dual are not always used in accordance with Classical Arabic rules in the great reading. Maybe Samia can help but off topic here.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: guest on September 14, 2009, 02:36:35 PM
Peace,
No, light (sunlight) only removes darkness/night from a object if the object expose itself to sunlight.
Darkness exist by itself.
" Darkness does not exist . Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton 's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."You have to be proud of yourself, you've just debunked Albert Einstein !
Peace Belal, everyone,
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 08:54:32 PM:rotfl: This is stupidity as it can be... :rotfl:
If you are going to parade your ignorance on the forum then do it in small fonts. Especially, since you know that you didn?t dare to say anything about the word ?yarkh? in this very familiar Arabic inscription that I provided in the same post:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Also, unless you enjoy humiliating yourself, when saying things like that in big fonts, you had better be knowledgeable about the subject and be 100% sure that you are right. You will see why next.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 08:54:32 PMCan anyone, including Ayman and his followers, quote any of the above words in Quran...If you cannot, and you will not, then would this make you feel that Ayman is underestimating your intelligence by claiming that the above language is Authantic Arabic like the Quran Language.
So according to your own criteria, all I have to do is show ANY word that is in the great reading to prove that you are overestimating your own intelligence. Now read the following line that you quoted:
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 06:46:03 PM( bi)n / (b) akhayal / rahman / wa rakhaw / zalan / salthany / w sathya/ ws
The word ?rahman? as an attribute of the god can be found many times in the great reading (1:1, etc). So I did quote you ?any? word that is in the great reading and I can stop right here after proving to everyone that you are overestimating your own intelligence and underestimating your ignorance. However, I will continue so as to do you a favor and help you snap out of any delusions you may still have about your intelligence. You will thank me later when you wizen up. :)
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 08:54:32 PMw yement / wa r'a rab hamw / Twadam / w thamat / satro / zn / satran / K'ghazow
Ma'ndam / Ghazwatn / rab'atan / b'warkhan / Zthbatan /Kafa saadu / kl/ bani amrm
Wa zaki/ malikn/ abjabar / b ainam/ kadat/ wain/ w basharm / bin hasahanm/ bainm
San dam/ wa mardam / wa hadaru/ qadami / jayshan/ alia bani yamram/ kadat/ wail/ b wad /samrakh / wa mardam/ wa sadam/ b wad..
B manhaj / tarban/ w zabahow / w asarw / w ghanamw / zaisam / wa makhdah/ malakin/ b halban/ wa danw
Ka zalam/ maidam / wrahanw / wa badanahaw / nwa sa'aham mw / amram / bin/ mazran.
Wa rahanamw / bin haw / wa sata khalafw / ala/ ma'dam/ wa qafalw/ bin/ hal.
( bi)n / (b) akhayal / rahman / wa rakhaw / zalan / salthany / w sathya/ ws
The following words in the inscription appear in the great reading
Tawd: mountain (26:63)
Satro: wrote (68:1)
Saadu: repelled/confronted (2:217, etc.)
Zaki: promoted/bettered (2:43, etc.)
Malikan: the king (2:246, etc.)
Wad: valley (14:37, etc.)
Zabahow: slaughtered (2:67, etc.)
Asarow: took prisoner (2:85, etc.)
Ghanamw: took the spoils of war (4:100, etc.)
Danw: come near (53:8, etc.)
Rahanw: took as collateral (2:283)
Khalafw: appointed (2:30, etc.)
Khayl: power/horses (8:60)
In addition to the above, words such as ?jayshan? (army), ?ghazwat? (raid) and others are routinely used even in modern Arabic today. So Belal not only ignores the pre-Islamic language of the great reading but also modern Arabic spoken by native Arabic speakers.
As a side note: The person who did the transcription and transliteration didn?t do a good job. Firstly, he confused transcription and transliteration and switched them. What Belal copied and pasted should actually be called the transliteration and not the transcription. Second, he made many obvious mistakes in the transliteration. For example, he mistakenly attached the Alif of ?asarw? (take prisoner) to the preceding ?and? (?w?) in line vi and he mistakenly attaches a non existent Alif to ?khayl? in line ix, to name a few mistakes. All those errors can be easily spotted by looking at the transcription (which he mistakenly called transliteration). The person who did the page is probably the Webmaster or the museum curator and doesn?t seem to have good knowledge about pre-Islamic Arabian dialects. Judging from the hypercorrections that he inserted in the transliteration (for example: ar-rahman for rahmanan), the guy is certainly a native Arabic speaker.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 06:46:03 PMIs this what do you call Arabic!!! You have lost your Brain...Can any one tell me if this looks like any writtings of Quran:
Let us see if Free- Minds Moderators will do something about this
You are only exposing that you ignore the difference between language and script. The script is irrelevant. For example, ?Bism allah alrahman alrahim? is in Arabic language despite being in English script. You are also further confirming your ignorance since the Arabian Musnad script of the inscription is the real Arabic script which has the full 28 letters of Arabic represented. On the other hand, the Nabataean Aramaic script that was used to write the great reading is a foreign script and therefore it doesn?t have all the letters of the Arabic language represented (Aramaic only has 22 letters). This is why dotting has to be used to disambiguate the letters, just like the apostrophe is used in English with the letter A to disambiguate ?Ain and Alif.
Quote from: belH on September 13, 2009, 09:39:49 PM
If you truly wants to know what is the pre-islamic arabic, study this--Jesus Language, Aramic.
(http://sepehr.mohamadi.name/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/aat_table.jpg)
You are in over your head in things that you have zero knowledge of. Can you please show everyone where the Arabic letters
Thaa ث , Khaa خ , Thaal ذ , Dhad ض , Thah ظ and Ghain غ are in your table? As I said, unlike the Sabaic South Arabia dialect, Aramaic (and the Nabataean Aramaic variation) are not even Arabian languages. They are foreign languages and therefore only have 22 letters while Arabian dialects have 28 letters. Unlike you, I will not lie and say that you are brainless since the god gave you a brain. I will say that if you used your god-given brain then you would have seen this fact from your own figure instead of just blindly posting stuff you have no knowledge of.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 13, 2009, 10:03:20 PMPerpetual straw-man arguments ? ?so do you think? then overlay your thoughts as being mine. Read context, was responding to your accusation of making fun using the word ?hot? which you use ?scorching? and called this thread Hot/"ramadan".
What straw-man? You were defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar where ?ramadhan? can occur at any haphazard time, even in the cold of winter. Either you believe that the god uses the word ?scorching/hot? haphazardly and ?ramadhan? can be during the cold of winter or you agree with me that the timing for ?ramadhan/scorching/hot must be during the hot time of the year. There is no other choice and this is irrespective of whether ?shahr? means full-moon, crescent, or month.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 13, 2009, 10:03:20 PMThat is issuing a fatwa -- the blind and those in cloudy weather are NOT obligated to fast.
Using your logic, I could also say that you are issuing a ?fatwa? FORCING the blind and those in cloudy weather to fast.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 13, 2009, 10:03:20 PMQur?an has a provision for those not able; e.g. feed the poor or today, had acid indigestion, auto reacted, reached for a glass of water, realized too late and broke my fast; no big deal hope to make it up another day same as a few days missed due to being ?under the weather.?
You refuted and contradicted yourself in countless earlier posts and threads?
Suggest a re-write a new thread ?Hot/Ramadan II? since this topic is all over the place and cluttered.
I suggest that you reread 2:185 and see that it clearly says ?man shahid minkum? (whoever witnesses from amongst you). What is the purpose of saying whoever witnesses from amongst you, unless some amongst you will not witness? Who are the people AMONGST YOU (the believers) who will not witness according to you? If witnessing was not required and just being present is required then the statement is redundant and unnecessary and the god could have simply said ?fast? and that would be it. You are not blind nor it was cloudy during the night of the scorching full-moon and yet you didn?t witness it and you weren?t even aware of it so you are not obligated to fast (but absolutely you still can fast anyway).
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 13, 2009, 10:03:20 PMYou changed your mind on this too as you did with hajj (debate/feast) which your current restriction varies approximately from June/July 21 to Sept/Oct 18 depending on the year?
21-Jun
21-Jul
20-Aug
18-Sep
18-Oct
April 25 - 26, 2009 Youth turkey-hunting weekend ? No Protection!
May 3 - May 31 Spring gobbler season (wild turkey) ? No Protection!
Sept. 1 - November 24, 2009 Black bear/end dates vary for method ? No Protection 1-2 months!
Sept. 2009 - Jan. 2010 Waterfowl/dates vary by species and zone ? No Protection 3 months!
Sept. 26-27, 2009 Youth waterfowl weekend (Saturday and Sunday)
Sept. 15 - Dec. 15 Deer/archery ? No Protection 2 months!
Sept. 15 - Dec. 15 Fall turkey/archery ? No Protection 2 months!
Oct. 12 - Oct. 16, 2009 Fall turkey/shotgun (in certain WMUs only); Monday ? Friday
Sept. 2009 - March 2010 Small game/dates vary by species and region ? No Protection!
Oct. 1 - Dec. 31 Pheasant ? No Protection!
Oct. 17 - Oct. 25 Moose (by permit only) ? No Protection!
Oct. 24 - 25 Youth deer-hunting weekend ? No Protection!
Oct. 31 - Nov. 10 Deer/muzzleloader (note -- opens Nov. 2 in WMU A) ? No Protection!
Nov. 11 - Dec. 6 Deer/firearms (note -- closes Nov. 29 in WMU A) ? No Protection!
Also see prior post?
You are misreading the data. The info gives the times when hunting is ALLOWED not when hunting is restricted. Now read again and see how the protection mostly overlaps except a few times for the animals whose hunting season starts in mid September and the difference is only for a couple of weeks on average.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 13, 2009, 10:03:20 PMAbsolutely agree, find it appalling the worst of disbelief including the mindless ocean/sea hunting to feed people?s fetishes/appetite for the exotic and renewed my Greenpeace membership today which was doubled by a most generous supporter.
6:38 And (there is) not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor (a) bird (that) flies with its two wings, except (they are) nations امثالكم similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.
I agree completely. So by the same token, the restriction is about protecting wild life all over the world from humans who hunt them for food during the period of the FOUR inviolable ?shahr? and not just around Mecca and only on the arbitrary days from 8th of Dhu Al-Hijjah to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah while people are walking around half-naked wearing nothing but towels as the sectarians whose timing you are defending are proposing. Otherwise, there is no purpose of the god clearly decreeing FOUR inviolable ?shahr? and if your understanding is correct then he would have just clearly said ?from 8th of Dhu Al-Hijjah to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only in the vicinity of Mecca?.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace,
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 03:31:56 PM
" Darkness does not exist . Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton 's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
You have to be proud of yourself, you've just debunked Albert Einstein !
Read and heed. You put Albert Einstein over the God. What a miserable person.
6:1 - Praise be to GOD, who created the heavens and the earth,
and made the darkness and the light. Yet, those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.
[17:78] You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines towards the darkening of the night. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
(17:78)اقم الصلوة لدلوك الشمس إلى غسق اليل وقرءان الفجر إن قرءان الفجر كان مشهودا
So do you still deny that the sun determines (someway) the night and day ??
Who are you trying to fool ?
I bet if Ayman tell you that the milk is white and the tar is black, you'll still would go debunking him.
Is it personal ??
Salam
Peace,
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 03:42:29 PM
[17:78] You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines towards the darkening of the night. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
(17:78)اقم الصلوة لدلوك الشمس إلى غسق اليل وقرءان الفجر إن قرءان الفجر كان مشهودا
So do you still deny that the sun determines (someway) the night and day ??
Who are you trying to fool ?
I bet if Ayman tell you that the milk is white and the tar is black, you'll still would go debunking him.
Is it personal ??
Salam
If light is removed then the natural state is darkness. The verse you quoted is consistent with this concept.
Quote from: guest on September 14, 2009, 03:49:57 PM
Peace,
If light is removed then the natural state is darkness. The verse you quoted is consistent with this concept.
So you agree that Darkness depends on the presence of the light . Ok , so where DID Einstein contradict GOD ??
Also , Notice that CREATING is Different from MAKING...Had GOD not created heavens, the earth would still exist.
In opposite, had GOD not MADE the light, it will be no darkness. you can call it whatever you want but NOT darkness.
Quote from: guest on September 14, 2009, 02:36:35 PM
Peace,
No, light (sunlight) only removes darkness/night from a object if the object expose itself to sunlight.
Darkness exist by itself.
so you are saying:
light removes darkness = day
absence of light = night
so light determines day and night?
Peace Rasulhamsa
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 14, 2009, 04:25:07 PM
so you are saying:
light removes darkness = day
absence of light = night
so light determines day and night?
Do you really expect Guest to understand This ??
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 14, 2009, 04:25:07 PM
so you are saying:
light removes darkness = day
absence of light = night
so light determines day and night?
Actually there is no such thing as darkness, it is just the absence of light. Just as cold is only the absence of heat.
Hey guest,
I visualise you living in a cave in Afghanistan and typing away in this forum.
Are you for real?
Can you have a forward looking outlook? or are you like some who refuse to sit on a sofa
because in the time of the Prophet there was none?
Don't you see why the Muslims are so backward, because of backward thinking like yours, and
more to the point, an inability to grasp a big picture, and getting lost in details and false logic.
For any human being since the dawn of humanity, they saw the sun revolving around the earth,
so it appeared to them as if (this is relative motion) the Sun revolves around the Earth.
The Quran is very subtle, read it subtly, I am really always amazed and disappointed at the
ignorance of the Sunnis or Shias, who can be pretty intelligent, but when it comes to issues of
Deen, it is like their heart gets clouded over by a deep fog.
How can you separate Deen and day to day life, are you out of your mind.
Your Qareen is indeed very powerful...
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 01:19:07 PM
1. Southern/Central Arabian dialect (see ?warkh? used to mean month):
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Peace all,
After an extensive search, it appear that the recent spoken Amharic language (Ethiopian) is identical to what you thought is the Root Language of Quran... even the word Warkh still used between Ethiopians and means Month :brickwall:
months ( )
0 votes up, 0 down
/w?rat/
Therefore, your claiming of the Sabaean Language to be the authentic Quranic Language= Zero
Please study the following to learn about the Original Quranic Language:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcq_VmEBG0
It is the Semitic language what appears to be the root of the Islamic Arabic language. This relationship places Arabic firmly in the Afro-Asiatic group of world languages.
Please do your own search, using valid and reliable sources if you want to argue.
I can quote Italian, English and Spanish words that has an Arabic root...does that make the Languages relate to each others, and can be used to understand its authentic meanings?
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 03:33:26 PM
You are in over your head in things that you have zero knowledge of. Can you please show everyone where the Arabic letters Thaa ث , Khaa خ , Thaal ذ , Dhad ض , Thah ظ and Ghain غ are in your table? As I said, unlike the Sabaic South Arabia dialect, Aramaic (and the Nabataean Aramaic variation) are not even Arabian languages. They are foreign languages and therefore only have 22 letters while Arabian dialects have 28 letters. Unlike you, I will not lie and say that you are brainless since the god gave you a brain. I will say that if you used your god-given brain then you would have seen this fact from your own figure instead of just blindly posting stuff you have no knowledge of.
Peace,
Ayman
Your answer can be found in this study...It shows how these letters evolved .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabic_inscriptions
Peace everyone,
Quote from: belH on September 14, 2009, 10:26:49 PMYour answer can be found in this study...It shows how these letters evolved .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabic_inscriptions
This just demonstrates that Belal is still clueless about the difference between letters (script) and language.
Here is another pre-Islamic Arabian inscription showing the word "yarkh" to mean "month" and this one uses the Nabataean Aramaic letters.
(http://i25.tinypic.com/212etdw.gif)
From:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
Ayman, Here is my gift for you from the same link:
these are some of the early Arabic scripts that is written on the wall of the True Kabba.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/DoTR.html
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 14, 2009, 10:36:11 PMAyman, Here is my gift for you from the same link:
these are some of the early Arabic scripts that is written on the wall of the True Kabba.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/DoTR.html
And your point is? Or do you just like to show off that you revere a shrine you named Kaaba which is built for a filthy rock that people idolize?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 10:42:55 PM
Peace Belal,
And your point is? Or do you just like to show off that you revere a shrine you named Kaaba which is built for a filthy rock that people idolize?
Peace,
Ayman
:rotfl: Did I trigger your Stressful Hormones; Now you are calling the Kabba in Macca and the Dom of the Rock in Jerusalem FILTHY ROCK .
Here is another gift for you that will trigger a huge dose of the Stressful Hormons:
You said:
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 10:33:56 PM
Peace everyone,
This just demonstrates that Belal is still clueless about the difference between letters (script) and language.
Here is another pre-Islamic Arabian inscription showing the word "yarkh" to mean "month" and this one uses the Nabataean Aramaic letters.
(http://i25.tinypic.com/212etdw.gif)
From:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Peace,
Ayman
above you said Yarkh (
يراك) = Month; after my search, it appears that God used the Word Yarkh in the Great Reading (Quran)
26:218 The One who sees you when you stand.
26:218 الذى
يراك حين تقوم
Should Ayman now withdraw his argument about the word Month in Arabic? or should He propose a new translation to the above verse to be:
26:218 The One who MOTH you when you stand.
Ayman, it is your time to shut down your Argument until you further study this subject...otherwise, you are making a fool of yourself in front of us and your kids.
Quote from: belH on September 14, 2009, 11:00:27 PM
Here is another gift for you that will trigger a huge dose of the Stressful Hormons:
You said:
above you said Yarkh (يراك) = Month; after my search, it appears that God used the Word Yarkh in the Great Reading (Quran)
26:218 The One who sees you when you stand.
26:218 الذى يراك حين تقوم
Should Ayman now withdraw his argument about the word Month in Arabic? or should He propose a new translation to the above verse to be:
26:218 The One who MONTH you when you stand.
Oh my God, i thought you belal, were an arabic speaker !!!! What's this ? are you kidding us ? where do you see
يراك (yaraaka) , in the quoted pre-islamic inscription ??? moreover, you highlited it in red !!!
يرخ = (yarkh)
month =
يرخ not
يراك !!!! are you blind ?? (if so, don't fast :laugh:)
يراك = sees you
بيرخ = ب + يرخ = in month
do you read "yaraaka" the same way that you read "yarkh" ? what's this ?????????????????????
if you wrote this at the beginning of this thread, i would have ignored you by now, and it is what everyone here would have done ! And this thread would have been much shorter !
it's ABSOLUTLY USELESS to talk with you . Sorry, i wasted my time with such ignorant and extremely mulish person as you ...
take arabic lessons or start learning salsa, no more options ...you're as far from Quran as the Sun from Pluto !!
Quote from: belH on September 14, 2009, 11:00:27 PM
Ayman, it is your time to shut down your Argument until you further study this subject...otherwise, you are making a fool of yourself in front of us and your kids.
just replace "Ayman" by "belh" and you will get a reasonable phrase.
P.S : it's very clear that it is either your eyes or your brain (surely both) that are sooo stressful.
tututututututututututututut !
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 11:41:45 PM
Oh my God, i thought you belal, were an arabic speaker !!!! What's this ? are you kidding us ? where do you see يراك (yaraaka) , in the quoted pre-islamic inscription ??? moreover, you highlited it red !!! يرخ = (yarkh)
month = يرخ not يراك !!!! are you blind ?? (if so, don't fast :laugh:)
يراك = see you
بيرخ = ب + يرخ = in month
do you read yarraka the same way that you read yarkh ? what's this ? ????????????????????
just replace "Ayman" by "belh" and you will get a reasonable phrase.
tututututututututututututut !
I have been searching the Quran for the words that Ayman suggested to be Month (Yarkh and Wark) and the close that I can get is the Word I showed 'Yarraka...of course this word meaning has nothing to do with the word Ayman suggested, but that is the close as it can get. Can you see that Ayman instead of admiting that Shahar is the right word for Month, He is Posting Semitic Words and Aramic words.
If you want to continue diffending your Lord, let Him show us a True Arabic Word for Month...after all he have showed that the Word Month has been used for thausand of years in different languages, but why not in Arabic language. Does that tell you that Shaher is the Word?
I hope you can see the struggle we are going through with Ayman and his followers...Again
What is the Authantic ARABIC word that is Equal to the English Word "MONTH". Please Post an Arabic Quotation and not other language if you want to end this in a mutual agreement...Otherwise, I will keep taking this thread as a game in which Stupidity is allowed.
:)
Peace all:
Please Copy the following word شهر (Shahr) and paste in the following link that has FOUR Classic ARABIC dictionaries.
http://www.lexilogos.com/english/arabic_dictionary.htm
You will note that all the dictionaries translate it to "Month"...Is this a reliable and valid argument that Shahar is the True Meaning of "Month"?
I think I'm done with the Shahar = Month Argument.
Peace all
BelH
I had asked you a question too.
What is your criteria for making a month consisting of 30 days?
siki
Quote from: siki on September 15, 2009, 12:33:09 AM
BelH
I had asked you a question too.
What is your criteria for making a month consisting of 30 days?
siki
Per God's instructions in the Quran, the Bible, and the Old Testement to use the Moon Cycle period to calculate the Month length (it can be 29 or 30 days)
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 12:04:30 AM
I have been searching the Quran for the words that Ayman suggested to be Month (Yarkh and Wark) and the close that I can get is the Word I showed 'Yarraka...of course this word meaning has nothing to do with the word Ayman suggested, but that is the close as it can get.
Very poor argument..
let's reverse it : Let's take the word "اسبوع" ( Authentic arabic word that equals the english word "week", as you previously answered) . if i decided to look for it in the quran, then i quoted this word (السبع = the lion) as it is the most close word one can get from the quran and because the quran doesn't mention the word "week"/"اسبوع" at all? What you would have treated me of ?? Ignorant? liar ? hypocrite? stubborn? satan worshiper ? idiot ? dumb ? blind? brainless ? dark agency follower ? donkey ? arrogant ? zero knowledge ? clueless ? non-sense champion? lock-hearted ? Astrayed ? disbeliever ? looser ? piggish ? What would you have said ????????
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 12:04:30 AM
What is the Authantic ARABIC word that is Equal to the English Word "MONTH".
It depends on what do you mean by authentic arabic language .
1 - If you mean northern/southern pre-islamic old arabic then month is "yarkh/warkh" (يرخ / ورخ ).
Although it doesn't appear in the quran (the word اسبوع either) . It doesn't mean that they don't exist in human manmade calendars.
2 - If you mean post islamic classical arabic, then month is "shahr" (شهر) , the same as full-moon, as long as i it is (the full moon) the obvious marker of the moon.
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 12:04:30 AM
Otherwise, I will keep taking this thread as a game in which Stupidity is allowed.
:)
Another stupid argument !
Salam
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 12:37:51 AM
Per God's instructions in the Quran, the Bible, and the Old Testement to use the Moon Cycle period to calculate the Month length (it can be 29 or 30 days)
Then why did you reply me with 60 days? why not 58 or 59 days? (when i asked you the question, "if God asks you to do something for two months , how many days in total you would do it for" ?)
siki
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 12:31:04 AM
Peace all:
Please Copy the following word شهر (Shahr) and paste in the following link that has FOUR Classic ARABIC dictionaries.
http://www.lexilogos.com/english/arabic_dictionary.htm
You will note that all the dictionaries translate it to "Month"...Is this a reliable and valid argument that Shahar is the True Meaning of "Month"?
I think I'm done with the Shahar = Month Argument.
Peace all
CAN YOU READ ARABIC? YES OR NO ?
Anyway, i did copy paste the word "شهر" in the link you provided. here is the answer :
شهر (لسان العرب)
الشُّهْرَةُ: ظهور الشيء في شُنْعَة حتى يَشْهَره الناس.
وفي الحديث: من لَبِسَ ثَوْبَ شُهْرَة أَلبسه الله ثوبَ مَذَلَّة. الجوهري:
الشُّهْرَة وُضُوح الأَمر، وقد شَهَرَه يَشْهَرُه شَهْراً وشُهْرَة فاشْتَهَرَ وشَهَّرَهُ تَشْهِيراً واشْتَهَرَه فاشْتَهَر؛ قال: أُحِبُّ هُبوطَ الوادِيَيْنِ، وإِنَّنِي لمُشْتَهَرٌ بِالوادِيَيْنِ غَرِيبُ ويروى لَمُشْتَهِر، بكسر الهاء. ابن الأَعرابي:
والشُّهْرَةُ الفضيحة؛ أَنشد الباهلي: أَفِينا تَسُومُ الشَّاهِرِيَّةَ بَعْدَما بَدا لك من شَهْرِ المُلَيْساء، كوكب؟ شهر المُلَيْساء: شَهْرٌ بين الصَّفَرِيِّة والشِّتاء، وهو وقت تنقطع فيه المِيرَة؛ يقول: تَعْرِض علينا الشَّاهِرِيَّةَ في وقت ليس فيه مِيرة.
وتَسُومُ: تَعْرِض.
والشَّاهِرِيَّة: ضَرْب من العِطْر، معروفة.
ورجل شَهِير ومشهور: معروف المكان مذكور؛ ورجل مَشْهور ومُشَهَّر؛ قال ثعلب: ومنه قول عمر بن الخطاب، رضي الله عنه: إِذا قَدمْتُمْ علينا شَهَرْنا أَحْسَنَكم اسماً، فإِذا رأَيناكم شَهَرْنا أَحسنكم وَجْهاً، فإِذا بَلَوْناكم كان الاخْتِيارُ.
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال. الليث: الشَّهْرُ والأَشْهُر عدد والشهور جماعة. ابن سيده: والشهر العدد المعروف من الأَيام، سمي بذلك لأَنه يُشْهَر بالقمر وفيه علامة ابتدائه وانتهائه؛ وقال الزجاج: سمي الشهر شهراً لشهرته وبيانه؛ وقال أَبو العباس: إِنما سُمي شهراً لشهرته وذلك أَن الناس يَشْهَرُون دخوله وخروجه.
وفي الحديث: صوموا الشَّهْرَ وسِرَّه؛ قال ابن الأَثير: الشهر الهلال، سُمِّي به لشهرته وظهوره، أَراد صوموا أَوّل الشهر وآخره، وقيل: سِرُّه وسَطه؛ ومنه الحديث: الشهر تسع وعشرون، وفي رواية: إِنما الشهْر، أَي أَن فائدة ارْتِقاب الهلال ليلة تسع وعشرين لِيُعَرف نقص الشهر قبله، وإِن أُريد به الشهرُ نفسُه فتكون اللام فيه للعهد.
وفي الحديث: سُئِل أَيُّ الصوم أَفضل بعد شهر رمضان؟ فقال: شهر الله المحرمُ؛ أَضافه إِلى الله تعظيماً وتفخيماً، كقولهم: بيت الله وآل الله لِقُرَيْشٍ.
وفي الحديث: شَهْرَا عِيدٍ لا يَنْقُصان؛ يريد شهر رمضان وذا الحجة أَي إِنْ نَقَصَ عددهما في الحساب فحكمهما على التمام لئلا تَحْرَجَ أُمَّتُه إِذا صاموا تسعة وعشرين، أَو وقع حَجُّهم خطأًً عن التاسع أَو العاشر لم يكن عليهم قضاء ولم يقع في نُسُكهم نَقْص. قال ابن الأَثير: وقيل فيه غير ذلك، قال: وهذا أَشبه، وقال غيره: سُمي شهراً باسم الهلال إِذا أَهَلَّ سمي شهراً.
والعرب تقول: رأَيت الشهر أَي رأَيت هلاله؛ وقال ذو الرُّمة: يَرَى الشَّهْرَ قبْلَ الناسِ وهو نَحِيلُ ابن الأَعرابي: يُسَمَّى القمر شَهْراً لأَنه يُشْهَرُ به، والجمع أَشْهُرٌ وشُهور.
وشاهَرَ الأَجيرَ مُشاهَرَةً وشِهاراً: استأْجره للشَّهْر؛ عن اللحياني.
والمُشاهَرَة: المعاملة شهراً بشهر.
والمُشاهَرة من الشهر: كالمُعاوَمَة من العام، وقال الله عز وجل: الحَجُّ أَشهرٌ معلومات؛ قال الزجاج: معناه وقتُ الحجّ أَشهر معلومات.
وقال الفراء: الأَشهر المعلومات من الحجّ شوّال وذو القَعْدَة وعشر من ذي الحِجَّة، وإِنما جاز أَن يقال أَشهر وإِنما هما شهران وعشرٌ من ثالث وذلك جائز في الأَوقات. قال الله تعالى: واذكروا الله في أَيام معدودات فمن تَعَجَّلَ في يَوْمَيْنِ؛ وإِنما يتعجل في يوم ونصف.
وتقول العرب: له اليومَ يومان مُذْ لم أَرَهُ، وإِنما هو يوم وبعض آخر؛ قال: وليس هذا بجائز في غير المواقيت
لأَن العرَب قد تفعَل الفِعْل في أَقلَّ من الساعة ثم يوقعونه على اليوم ويقولون: زُرْته العامَ، وإِنما زاره في يوم منه.
وأَشْهَرَ القومُ: أَتى عليهم شهرٌ، وأَشهرتِ المرأَة: دخلتْ في شهرِ وِلادِها، والعرب تقول: أَشْهَرْنا مُذْ لم نلتق أَي أَتى علينا شهر: قال الشاعر: ما زِلتُ، مُذْ أَشْهَرَ السُّفَّارُ أَنظرُهم، مِثلَ انْتِظارِ المُضَحِّي راعِيَ الغَنَمِ وأَشْهَرْنَا مذ نزلنا على هذا الماء أَي أَتى علينا شهر.
وأَشهرنا في هذا المكان: أَقمنا فيه شهراً.
وأَشْهَرْنا دخلنا في الشهر.وقوله عز وجل: فإِذا انسلخ الأَشهُرُ الحُرُم؛ يقال: الأَربعةُ أَشهر كانت عشرين من ذي الحجة والمحرمَ وصفرَ وشهرَ ربيع الأَول وعشراً من ربيع الآخر، لأَن البراءة وقعت في يوم عرفة فكان هذا الوقت ابتداءَ الأَجَل، ويقال لأَيام الخريف في آخر الصيف: الصَّفَرِيَّةُ؛ وفي شعر أَبي طالب يمدح سيدنا رسولُ الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم: فَإِنِّي والضَّوابِحَ كلَّ يوم، وما تَتْلُو السَّفاسِرَةُ الشُّهورُ الشُّهور: العلماء، الواحد شَهْر.
ويقال لفلان فضيلة اشْتَهَرها الناسُ.وشَهَر فلان سيفَه يَشْهَرُهُ شَهْراً أَي سَلَّه؛ وشَهَّرَهُ: انْتَضاه فرفعه على الناس؛ قال: يا ليتَ شِعْرِي عنكُم حَنِيفا، أَشاهِرُونَ بَعْدنا السُّيُوفا وفي حديث عائشة: خرج شاهِراً سيفه راكباً راحِلَته؛ يعني يوم الرِّدَّة، أَي مُبْرِزاً له من غمده.
وفي حديث ابن الزبير: من شَهَر سيفه ثم وضعه فَدَمُه هَدَرٌ، أَي من أَخرجه من غمده للقتال، وأَراد بوضَعَه ضرب به؛ وقول ذي الرمة: وقد لاحَ لِلسَّارِي الذي كَمَّلَ السُّرَى، على أُخْرَياتِ الليل، فَتْقٌ مُشَهَّرُ أَي صبح مشهور.
وفي الحديث: ليس مِنّا من شَهَر علينا السلاح.
وامرأَة شَهِيرة: وهي العَرِيضة الضخمة، وأَتانٌ شَهِيرة مثلُها.
والأَشاهِرُ: بَياض النَّرْجِس.
وامرأَة شَهِيرة وأَتان شَهِيرة: عريضة واسعة.والشِّهْرِيَّة ضرْب من البَراذِين، وهو بين البِرذَون والمُقْرِف من الخيل؛ وقوله أَنشده ابن الأَعرابي: لها سَلَفٌ يَعُود بكلِّ رِيعٍ، حَمَى الحَوْزات واشْتَهَر الإِفَالا فسَّره فقال: واشتهر الإِفالا معناه جاء تشبهه، ويعني بالسَّلَفِ الفحل.
والإِفالُ: صغار الإِبل.
وقد سَمَّوْا شَهْراً وشُهَيْراً ومَشْهُوراً.
وشَهْرانُ أَبو قبيلة من خَثْعَم.
وشُهارٌ: مَوضع؛ قال أَبو صخر: ويومَ شُهارٍ قد ذَكَرْتُك ذِكْرَةً على دُبُرٍ مُجْلٍ، من العَيْشِ، نافِدِ
Assuming you can read arabic (which is not very sure) , tell us what's the main meaning of شهر ?
Everyone can read (except you) that it means most of the time , something obvious/wellknown..and everyone can read (except you) that only one of its meaning can be "month". And this is because it is related to a (shahar/obvious) moon . ie. full moon.
As you can see, the only source claiming that شهر means crescent (هلال) is a hadithic source...
the hadith says :"fast the shahr and it's secret part "صوموا الشَّهْرَ وسِرَّه؛" it leaves no doubt, even from a hadith source (lol) that the moon has its obvious part " الشَّهْرَ / full moon" and its secret part "وسِرَّه؛ / crescent".
you're trapped in your own hole !!!
Peace quickduck
good work!
Peace belH
your obsession, and guest's obsession with the moon is surely unhealthy...
Peace guest
of course you are not a Prophet, thank God for that, but you certainly act like one.
who gives you the right to be Allah's spokesperson, does He need you to be? and more to the
point as He does not need anyone, does He want you to be?
When I read the Quran I feel very comfortable, and complete, when I read your explanations, which
are very similar to the kind of arguments that any sectarian will give to defend hadith based fallacies,
I feel extremely uncomfortable in my body and mind, these are for me Allah's Signs of what is right and
what is false.
You take matters out of their context and build arguments as a base for systems that Allah has not authorised,
be they sunna, shia, sufi...
The first ones who are at the source of these are the worst criminals in Islam's history, and you are just one of their repeaters,
followers, and apologists.
Let us take the moon, you take it out of its context, which is the earth and the sun, and you do the same with the sun, and then you build a story that suits a pagan ritual in which you replace the name Baal (Moon God) will Allah, this is Lucifer playing..., and you wonder why the moon is ever present on the mosque minarets, and on the "muslim" emblems?
How can Allah condone such idolatry?
Hi all, Peace,
just a thought....
new moon depends on our geographical location on earth, it can start at J for some and J+1 for others regardless of the hemisphere (north or south).
Then logically for some "laylat al qadr" will be at one night and for the others it will be at one night +1. So the same month we have 2 laylat al qadr!!!!!
This is IMPOSSIBLE as per surat 97.
This test failed!
So either we use the astronomical definition of the new moon, where moon earth and sun are synchronized and therefore it means that WE CANNOT WITNESS IT.
as per 2:185.
This test failed!
In the other case we can say or think, it (new moon) has to be at prophete Muhamad's location! But then someone in New Zeeland has to know and or follow the news coming from Mecca (Muhamad supposed location) to know when he needs to start the fast, which is possible today but was not possible 50 years ago, and we don't know if it will be still possible in the future.
So not easy to determined.
This test failed!
Peace
Quote from: quickduck on September 15, 2009, 01:05:04 AM
Anyway, i did copy paste the word "شهر" in the link you provided. here is the answer :
شهر (لسان العرب)
الشُّهْرَةُ: ظهور الشيء في شُنْعَة حتى يَشْهَره الناس.
وفي الحديث: من لَبِسَ ثَوْبَ شُهْرَة أَلبسه الله ثوبَ مَذَلَّة. الجوهري: الشُّهْرَة وُضُوح الأَمر، وقد شَهَرَه يَشْهَرُه شَهْراً وشُهْرَة فاشْتَهَرَ وشَهَّرَهُ تَشْهِيراً واشْتَهَرَه فاشْتَهَر؛ قال: أُحِبُّ هُبوطَ الوادِيَيْنِ، وإِنَّنِي لمُشْتَهَرٌ بِالوادِيَيْنِ غَرِيبُ ويروى لَمُشْتَهِر، بكسر الهاء. ابن الأَعرابي: والشُّهْرَةُ الفضيحة؛ أَنشد الباهلي: أَفِينا تَسُومُ الشَّاهِرِيَّةَ بَعْدَما بَدا لك من شَهْرِ المُلَيْساء، كوكب؟ شهر المُلَيْساء: شَهْرٌ بين الصَّفَرِيِّة والشِّتاء، وهو وقت تنقطع فيه المِيرَة؛ يقول: تَعْرِض علينا الشَّاهِرِيَّةَ في وقت ليس فيه مِيرة.
وتَسُومُ: تَعْرِض.
...........
Assuming you can read arabic (which is not very sure) , tell us what's the main meaning of شهر ?
Everyone can read (except you) that it means most of the time , something obvious/wellknown..and everyone can read (except you) that only one of its meaning can be "month". And this is because it is related to a (shahar/obvious) moon . ie. full moon.
.......
The Dictionary argument (which you returned against yourself, lol) is not the ONLY argument for"shahr" doesn't mean "month"
let's not forget that :
1 - As Ayman enphacised before, GOD did "anzala" the quran in ONE NIGHT as per 97:1...but HE did "nazzala" the same quran during the rest of prophet's life (assumed to be 23 years) . the difference between "nazzala" and "anzala" is very known to arabic speakers, which is not the case of belal, guest neither nunpseudoholidayrex...(anzala is "punctual" while nazzala is "continuous" within a period).
Therefore, as per 2:185, "shahr ramadan" can only mean one night because GOD uses the same word "anzala" and not "nazzala" in both verses (97:1 and 2:185).
2 - logical analysis of 2:185 leads us to deduce that it is impossible that "shahr ramadan" can be one month, because you cannot "have witnessed" (past tense) the month before you go back in time and fast it .
3 - God emphacised that abstinence is for few days (min 3 - max 10 ) , so it would be illogical to claim that shahr means month (quranically speaking, because in daily arabic, one friday can also mean one week from friday to friday, one summer can also mean a year from one summer to the other, etc...)....
4 - as per 9:36, you can not "count" 12 months but only 12 full moons in a solar cycle.
so if you, Belal or whoever, wants to disapprove that shahr = one night , you'll have to "debunk" those 4+1= 5 arguments
at the same time, not only the dictionary one .
Salam
Peace herbman,
why fail?
the Quran was revealed in Middle East Time, so?
on Earth you cannot escape relative times wherever you are - you need a point of reference ( a time frame)...
as for God's Time, I do not think there is any... that is only for us...
so using lunar or luni-solar, you will still have days that will "fall" in different seasons
but they are the same days.
The leylat Qadr Day was a special day when the Quran was revealed (or downloaded to use a word that now defines it even better), it was a full moon in Jerusalem just after the Summer Solstice, and wherever else you were on the globe
whatever the moon phase that was the day.
There is no test to be applied, irrelevant... your brain-storming idea is not useful, throw it in the bin.
As for the people in New Zealand, they had their own messengers at the time, tough for them, Mohamed's
message had not reached them yet ;D
Salam
Noble
Quote from: herbman on September 15, 2009, 07:50:40 AM
Hi all, Peace,
just a thought....
new moon depends on our geographical location on earth, it can start at J for some and J+1 for others regardless of the hemisphere (north or south).
Then logically for some "laylat al qadr" will be at one night and for the others it will be at one night +1. So the same month we have 2 laylat al qadr!!!!!
This is IMPOSSIBLE as per surat 97.
This test failed!
So either we use the astronomical definition of the new moon, where moon earth and sun are synchronized and therefore it means that WE CANNOT WITNESS IT.
as per 2:185.
This test failed!
In the other case we can say or think, it (new moon) has to be at prophet Muhamad's location! But then someone in New Zeeland has to know and or follow the news coming from Mecca (Muhamad supposed location) to know when he needs to start the fast, which is possible today but was not possible 50 years ago, and we don't know if it will be still possible in the future.
So not easy to determined.
This test failed!
Peace
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 14, 2009, 04:25:07 PM
so you are saying:
light removes darkness = day
absence of light = night
so light determines day and night?
6:1 - Praise be to GOD, who created the heavens and the earth, and
made the darkness and the light. Yet, those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.
Dark is a reality just as much as light is a reality. Therefore, your second postulate is wrong (satanic) and since the third postulate depends on the second it is in the toilet.
You are trying to contradict the Quran (your hidden agenda) by asking silly question such as ?absence of light = darkness?. You are only going to fool yourself and not the believer. Satanic scheme is flimsier than the spider web.
Try your stupidity with Ayman, he likes this kind of stuff.
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 04:03:31 PM
So you agree that Darkness depends on the presence of the light . Ok , so where DID Einstein contradict GOD ??
Also , Notice that CREATING is Different from MAKING...Had GOD not created heavens, the earth would still exist.
In opposite, had GOD not MADE the light, it will be no darkness. you can call it whatever you want but NOT darkness.
No, I don't agree with you.
As the Earth spins, we move through the light, into the darkness, and back again.
Peace guest
for once something we can agree on, nothing like a Quran ayat to settle an argument.
as one who has believed, i will therefore concur with you that their definition of darkness need overhauling.
but, let us not make the mistake that because people make mistakes, we take it as an excuse to reject
all their work sundry.
you too need some spring cleaning in your approach, and by the way not everything that is not yet understandable
is necessarily satanic... we cut ourselves from a lot of opportunities with such an attitude...
and i find it even worse in those who argue against the existence of Jinns (and by extension of Satan) as real beings, as they put
themselves and those who accept the view in great danger, because how can you defend yourself from something you do not believe exist...
regarding the subject of this thread, i accept something only when i get convinced by it for myself, and it has nothing to do with Ayman, or whoever, it just clicks as the normal natural divine system to follow, and that the Quran is progressive, not regressive, which means with ijtihad, we have room to improve our deen, by Allah's leave, albeit with the core foundation of monotheism and reality intact, i.e. all what is described in the Quran is binding, but not what was written or done in the past for which we are not responsible, we are responsible for our present, and our future, and those entrusted to us... and Allah is showing, because we are suffering...
if we were doing as we are supposed to, things will be very easy, really...
it has been downhill since Imam Shafie, Bukhari and the Abassids...
Quote from: quickduck on September 14, 2009, 04:37:02 PM
Peace Rasulhamsa
Do you really expect Guest to understand This ??
You mean would I be able to foil a satanic scheme. You bet, I will. The God always guides and protect his servents.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 05:01:13 PM
Don't you see why the Muslims are so backward, because of backward thinking like yours, and
Muslims are backward because of people like you. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote from: theNabster on September 14, 2009, 05:01:13 PM
the Sun revolves around the Earth.
That?s what Ayman still believe. And you are his advocate. What does that say.
Quote from: guest on September 15, 2009, 11:00:40 AM
No, I don't agree with you.
As the Earth spins, we move through the light, into the darkness, and back again.
I think i have to ask you again : DO YOU FEEL THE EARTH SPINNING RIGHT NOW ? DO YOU SEE THE SUN FIXED IN THE SKY ?
If not, so nobody does . But if you do, then you are the only one amongst god's creatures.
for every earth being, (except YOU ) the sun IS THE responsible for day and night. NOT the earth, NEITHER the moon !
Quote from: guest on September 15, 2009, 11:18:07 AM
You mean would I be able to foil a satanic scheme. You bet, I will. The God always guides and protect his servents.
Quote from: guest
Dark is a reality just as much as light is a reality. Therefore, your second postulate is wrong (satanic) and since the third postulate depends on the second it is in the toilet.
I agree with you . Even stupidity is a reality and it's not the absence of intelligence . you are a living proof of it !
Salam
Peace guest
So your method to your winning arguments when you are losing them is to become abusive, charming.
I will not lower myself to your level, your place is not discussing in a Real Muslim forum, but among like
minded people in waziristan and tora bora...
You are the shame, and will take this responsibility with you on the day of judgment.
My sins are enough for me, but they certainly do not include covering the truth as you do...
I look for the Truth...
You are arrogant, and you think you already have the Truth...
Who is Satan's minion?
Quote from: guest on September 15, 2009, 10:48:13 AM
6:1 - Praise be to GOD, who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet, those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.
Dark is a reality just as much as light is a reality. Therefore, your second postulate is wrong (satanic) and since the third postulate depends on the second it is in the toilet.
You are trying to contradict the Quran (your hidden agenda) by asking silly question such as ?absence of light = darkness?. You are only going to fool yourself and not the believer. Satanic scheme is flimsier than the spider web.
Try your stupidity with Ayman, he likes this kind of stuff.
SubhanAllah
I know people here are just jealous of your intelligence but I'm just trying to learn, I enjoy reading your posts. :bravo:
so according to your understanding: In the night time people actually do not experience "absence of light" but they experience darkness because there is no light of the sun in the night times? or may be the light is there its just us who are unable to see the light because of utter darkness?
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 15, 2009, 03:58:58 PM
SubhanAllah
I know people here are just jealous of your intelligence but I'm just trying to learn, I enjoy reading your posts. :bravo:
He's really good, isn't he ?
Quote from: quickduck on September 15, 2009, 11:46:12 AM
I think i have to ask you again : DO YOU FEEL THE EARTH SPINNING RIGHT NOW ? DO YOU SEE THE SUN FIXED IN THE SKY ?
If not, so nobody does . But if you do, then you are the only one amongst god's creatures.
for every earth being, (except YOU ) the sun IS THE responsible for day and night. NOT the earth, NEITHER the moon !
I agree with you . Even stupidity is a reality and it's not the absence of intelligence . you are a living proof of it !
Salam
Just a few post ago you said earth-moon-sun relationship is elementary school problem. How come you are asking elementary questions now? Shame on you.
The earth is spinning whether you like it or not. Every day around 4 AM I see planet Venus (?) from my window (looking east). First I see it on the horizon and then in matter of 15-30 minutes I see it moved noticeably higher. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that either earth is moving, or Venus is moving, or both are moving (one may be faster than the other). Did that answer your question.
As for the other question "DO YOU SEE THE SUN FIXED IN THE SKY ?", this is laughable. No I don't see sun fixed in the sky. I see sun in the horizon, then high up, and then back to horizon again. And you are calling this fixed. Shame, shame, shame.
Quote from: quickduck on September 15, 2009, 01:05:04 AM
CAN YOU READ ARABIC? YES OR NO ?
Anyway, i did copy paste the word "شهر" in the link you provided. here is the answer :
شهر (لسان العرب)
الشُّهْرَةُ: ظهور الشيء في شُنْعَة حتى يَشْهَره الناس.
وفي الحديث: من لَبِسَ ثَوْبَ شُهْرَة أَلبسه الله ثوبَ مَذَلَّة. الجوهري: الشُّهْرَة وُضُوح الأَمر، وقد شَهَرَه يَشْهَرُه شَهْراً وشُهْرَة فاشْتَهَرَ وشَهَّرَهُ تَشْهِيراً واشْتَهَرَه فاشْتَهَر؛ قال: أُحِبُّ هُبوطَ الوادِيَيْنِ، وإِنَّنِي لمُشْتَهَرٌ بِالوادِيَيْنِ غَرِيبُ ويروى لَمُشْتَهِر، بكسر الهاء. ابن الأَعرابي: والشُّهْرَةُ الفضيحة؛ أَنشد الباهلي: أَفِينا تَسُومُ الشَّاهِرِيَّةَ بَعْدَما بَدا لك من شَهْرِ المُلَيْساء، كوكب؟ شهر المُلَيْساء: شَهْرٌ بين الصَّفَرِيِّة والشِّتاء، وهو وقت تنقطع فيه المِيرَة؛ يقول: تَعْرِض علينا الشَّاهِرِيَّةَ في وقت ليس فيه مِيرة.
وتَسُومُ: تَعْرِض.
والشَّاهِرِيَّة: ضَرْب من العِطْر، معروفة.
ورجل شَهِير ومشهور: معروف المكان مذكور؛ ورجل مَشْهور ومُشَهَّر؛ قال ثعلب: ومنه قول عمر بن الخطاب، رضي الله عنه: إِذا قَدمْتُمْ علينا شَهَرْنا أَحْسَنَكم اسماً، فإِذا رأَيناكم شَهَرْنا أَحسنكم وَجْهاً، فإِذا بَلَوْناكم كان الاخْتِيارُ.
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال. الليث: الشَّهْرُ والأَشْهُر عدد والشهور جماعة. ابن سيده: والشهر العدد المعروف من الأَيام، سمي بذلك لأَنه يُشْهَر بالقمر وفيه علامة ابتدائه وانتهائه؛ وقال الزجاج: سمي الشهر شهراً لشهرته وبيانه؛ وقال أَبو العباس: إِنما سُمي شهراً لشهرته وذلك أَن الناس يَشْهَرُون دخوله وخروجه.
وفي الحديث: صوموا الشَّهْرَ وسِرَّه؛ قال ابن الأَثير: الشهر الهلال، سُمِّي به لشهرته وظهوره، أَراد صوموا أَوّل الشهر وآخره، وقيل: سِرُّه وسَطه؛ ومنه الحديث: الشهر تسع وعشرون، وفي رواية: إِنما الشهْر، أَي أَن فائدة ارْتِقاب الهلال ليلة تسع وعشرين لِيُعَرف نقص الشهر قبله، وإِن أُريد به الشهرُ نفسُه فتكون اللام فيه للعهد.
وفي الحديث: سُئِل أَيُّ الصوم أَفضل بعد شهر رمضان؟ فقال: شهر الله المحرمُ؛ أَضافه إِلى الله تعظيماً وتفخيماً، كقولهم: بيت الله وآل الله لِقُرَيْشٍ.
وفي الحديث: شَهْرَا عِيدٍ لا يَنْقُصان؛ يريد شهر رمضان وذا الحجة أَي إِنْ نَقَصَ عددهما في الحساب فحكمهما على التمام لئلا تَحْرَجَ أُمَّتُه إِذا صاموا تسعة وعشرين، أَو وقع حَجُّهم خطأًً عن التاسع أَو العاشر لم يكن عليهم قضاء ولم يقع في نُسُكهم نَقْص. قال ابن الأَثير: وقيل فيه غير ذلك، قال: وهذا أَشبه، وقال غيره: سُمي شهراً باسم الهلال إِذا أَهَلَّ سمي شهراً.
والعرب تقول: رأَيت الشهر أَي رأَيت هلاله؛ وقال ذو الرُّمة: يَرَى الشَّهْرَ قبْلَ الناسِ وهو نَحِيلُ ابن الأَعرابي: يُسَمَّى القمر شَهْراً لأَنه يُشْهَرُ به، والجمع أَشْهُرٌ وشُهور.
وشاهَرَ الأَجيرَ مُشاهَرَةً وشِهاراً: استأْجره للشَّهْر؛ عن اللحياني.
والمُشاهَرَة: المعاملة شهراً بشهر.
والمُشاهَرة من الشهر: كالمُعاوَمَة من العام، وقال الله عز وجل: الحَجُّ أَشهرٌ معلومات؛ قال الزجاج: معناه وقتُ الحجّ أَشهر معلومات.
وقال الفراء: الأَشهر المعلومات من الحجّ شوّال وذو القَعْدَة وعشر من ذي الحِجَّة، وإِنما جاز أَن يقال أَشهر وإِنما هما شهران وعشرٌ من ثالث وذلك جائز في الأَوقات. قال الله تعالى: واذكروا الله في أَيام معدودات فمن تَعَجَّلَ في يَوْمَيْنِ؛ وإِنما يتعجل في يوم ونصف.
وتقول العرب: له اليومَ يومان مُذْ لم أَرَهُ، وإِنما هو يوم وبعض آخر؛ قال: وليس هذا بجائز في غير المواقيت لأَن العرَب قد تفعَل الفِعْل في أَقلَّ من الساعة ثم يوقعونه على اليوم ويقولون: زُرْته العامَ، وإِنما زاره في يوم منه.
وأَشْهَرَ القومُ: أَتى عليهم شهرٌ، وأَشهرتِ المرأَة: دخلتْ في شهرِ وِلادِها، والعرب تقول: أَشْهَرْنا مُذْ لم نلتق أَي أَتى علينا شهر: قال الشاعر: ما زِلتُ، مُذْ أَشْهَرَ السُّفَّارُ أَنظرُهم، مِثلَ انْتِظارِ المُضَحِّي راعِيَ الغَنَمِ وأَشْهَرْنَا مذ نزلنا على هذا الماء أَي أَتى علينا شهر.
وأَشهرنا في هذا المكان: أَقمنا فيه شهراً.
وأَشْهَرْنا دخلنا في الشهر.وقوله عز وجل: فإِذا انسلخ الأَشهُرُ الحُرُم؛ يقال: الأَربعةُ أَشهر كانت عشرين من ذي الحجة والمحرمَ وصفرَ وشهرَ ربيع الأَول وعشراً من ربيع الآخر، لأَن البراءة وقعت في يوم عرفة فكان هذا الوقت ابتداءَ الأَجَل، ويقال لأَيام الخريف في آخر الصيف: الصَّفَرِيَّةُ؛ وفي شعر أَبي طالب يمدح سيدنا رسولُ الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم: فَإِنِّي والضَّوابِحَ كلَّ يوم، وما تَتْلُو السَّفاسِرَةُ الشُّهورُ الشُّهور: العلماء، الواحد شَهْر.
ويقال لفلان فضيلة اشْتَهَرها الناسُ.وشَهَر فلان سيفَه يَشْهَرُهُ شَهْراً أَي سَلَّه؛ وشَهَّرَهُ: انْتَضاه فرفعه على الناس؛ قال: يا ليتَ شِعْرِي عنكُم حَنِيفا، أَشاهِرُونَ بَعْدنا السُّيُوفا وفي حديث عائشة: خرج شاهِراً سيفه راكباً راحِلَته؛ يعني يوم الرِّدَّة، أَي مُبْرِزاً له من غمده.
وفي حديث ابن الزبير: من شَهَر سيفه ثم وضعه فَدَمُه هَدَرٌ، أَي من أَخرجه من غمده للقتال، وأَراد بوضَعَه ضرب به؛ وقول ذي الرمة: وقد لاحَ لِلسَّارِي الذي كَمَّلَ السُّرَى، على أُخْرَياتِ الليل، فَتْقٌ مُشَهَّرُ أَي صبح مشهور.
وفي الحديث: ليس مِنّا من شَهَر علينا السلاح.
وامرأَة شَهِيرة: وهي العَرِيضة الضخمة، وأَتانٌ شَهِيرة مثلُها.
والأَشاهِرُ: بَياض النَّرْجِس.
وامرأَة شَهِيرة وأَتان شَهِيرة: عريضة واسعة.والشِّهْرِيَّة ضرْب من البَراذِين، وهو بين البِرذَون والمُقْرِف من الخيل؛ وقوله أَنشده ابن الأَعرابي: لها سَلَفٌ يَعُود بكلِّ رِيعٍ، حَمَى الحَوْزات واشْتَهَر الإِفَالا فسَّره فقال: واشتهر الإِفالا معناه جاء تشبهه، ويعني بالسَّلَفِ الفحل.
والإِفالُ: صغار الإِبل.
وقد سَمَّوْا شَهْراً وشُهَيْراً ومَشْهُوراً.
وشَهْرانُ أَبو قبيلة من خَثْعَم.
وشُهارٌ: مَوضع؛ قال أَبو صخر: ويومَ شُهارٍ قد ذَكَرْتُك ذِكْرَةً على دُبُرٍ مُجْلٍ، من العَيْشِ، نافِدِ
Assuming you can read arabic (which is not very sure) , tell us what's the main meaning of شهر ?
Everyone can read (except you) that it means most of the time , something obvious/wellknown..and everyone can read (except you) that only one of its meaning can be "month". And this is because it is related to a (shahar/obvious) moon . ie. full moon.
As you can see, the only source claiming that شهر means crescent (هلال) is a hadithic source...
the hadith says :"fast the shahr and it's secret part "صوموا الشَّهْرَ وسِرَّه؛" it leaves no doubt, even from a hadith source (lol) that the moon has its obvious part " الشَّهْرَ / full moon" and its secret part "وسِرَّه؛ / crescent".
you're trapped in your own hole !!!
Peace all,
Thank you very much for using Arabic evidence, and not Amharic (Ethiopian) as Ayman did, in order to argue about the true arabic meaning of Shahar.
Non of the above shows that the Word Shahar= Full moon...But in one of the meaning (one of the tens suggested uses) says the following (the part that you highlighted in red):
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال
Translate as follow (Word by Word):
And the Month the Moon, it was named like this due to its bright appearance; and they said, WHEN IT SHOWS (the Moon) and ALMOST CLOSE TO BEING FULL.
Does that gave you a hint that he is not talking about THE FULL MOON, rather, something is gradually becoming FULL MOON...What that thing could be? :!
By the way, most, if not all of the above Arabic dictionary, which you quoted, suggest that the Word Shahar = the Length of the MOON CYCLE (29 to 30 days)...Can you deny this?
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 06:43:02 PM
By the way, most, if not all of the above Arabic dictionary, which you quoted, suggest that the Word Shahar = the Length of the MOON CYCLE (29 to 30 days)...Can you deny this?
i don't deny this, and i never did !!
What i said is in arabic, we can also use the word friday to mean week, and spring/summer to mean year. eg: i'll be traveling for a friday (i'll be traveling for one week) because friday in this case, is used as a marker of the week (obvious "marker" because of friday's prayer = easy to remember/count, jut like the shahr/full moon is used to mean a month since the month can be described as the time frame between 2 full moons (obvious markers easy to remember/count).. that's it !
And don't forget, you have 4 other arguments to refute, and then we can discuss.
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 15, 2009, 09:36:46 PM
i don't deny this, and i never did !!
In our efforts to eliminate stupidity, I will explain to you what I wrote:
The Arabic dictionary that you quote suggests that Shahar means the period between the first appearance of the Moon, not the full moon, to second appearance--Waxing Crescent to the next waxing Crescent.
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 06:43:02 PM
Peace all,
Thank you very much for using Arabic evidence, and not Amharic (Ethiopian) as Ayman did, in order to argue about the true arabic meaning of Shahar.
Non of the above shows that the Word Shahar= Full moon...But in one of the meaning (one of the tens suggested uses) says the following (the part that you highlighted in red):
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال
Translate as follow (Word by Word):
And the Month the Moon, it was named like this due to its bright appearance; and they said, WHEN IT SHOWS (the Moon) and ALMOST CLOSE TO BEING FULL.
Does that gave you a hint that he is not talking about THE FULL MOON, rather, something is gradually becoming FULL MOON...What that thing could be? :!
By the way, most, if not all of the above Arabic dictionary, which you quoted, suggest that the Word Shahar = the Length of the MOON CYCLE (29 to 30 days)...Can you deny this?
Do you still agree? Because what you wrote either you made unintentional mistake or we are letting Stupidity takes over again...then I will act the same when arguing.
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 10:13:26 PM
The Arabic dictionary that you quote suggests that Shahar means the period between the first appearance of the Moon, not the full moon, to second appearance--Waxing Crescent to the next waxing Crescent.
1- Note that this "suggestion" is only from hadith interpretation , and yours as well...All other meanings of shahr are related to something obvious...
2- for this point, i still agree with you , BOTH MEANINGS ARE CORRECT
shahr = night of full moon (original marker) = month (period between 2 full moons in day to day language).
just like :
friday = 6th day of the week (original marker) = week (period between 2 fridays) in day to day language) .
and also,
spring = season from march 21 to june 20 (original markers) = Year (period between 2 springs in day to day language )
I really want to discuss, so let's put stupidity behind us ok ?
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on September 15, 2009, 10:44:35 PM
1- Note that this "suggestion" is only from hadith interpretation , and yours as well...All other meanings of shahr are related to something obvious...
2- for this point, i still agree with you , BOTH MEANINGS ARE CORRECT
shahr = night of full moon (original marker) = month (period between 2 full moons in day to day language).
Peace,
I will give this one more chance...you still ignoring that the translation and the meaning of your own evidence:
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال
Translate as follow (Word by Word):
And the Month the Moon, it was named like this due to its bright appearance; and they said, WHEN IT SHOWS (the Moon) and ALMOST CLOSE TO BEING FULL.
The above does not suggest Full Moon, rather, Waxing Crescent.
Now, I will move to another issue. If what you and Ayman are proposing, we should ignore the moon #13 when calculating a Year, then, can you calculate for us the following, after reading this:
46:15 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and
weaning lasts thirty months. So that,
when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says: �My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.�
46:15 ووصينا الإنسن بولديه إحسنا حملته أمه كرها ووضعته كرها وحمله وفصله ثلثون شهرا حتى إذا بلغ أشده وبلغ أربعين سنة قال رب أوزعني أن أشكر نعمتك التي أنعمت علي وعلى ولدي وأن أعمل صلحا ترضيه وأصلح لي في ذريتي إني تبت إليك وإني من المسلمين
1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse?
2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse?
Please let us give it one more chance to end this in an intelligent way.
Any one wants to answer, please do so.
peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 11:30:08 PM1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse?
This has already been answered. try to read before going in circles:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg215872#msg215872
Quote from: belH on September 15, 2009, 11:30:08 PM2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse?
Please let us give it one more chance to end this in an intelligent way.
This is a stupid question. How old are you? Do you know anyone who counts his or her age in lunar months?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: siki on September 15, 2009, 12:46:55 AM
Then why did you reply me with 60 days? why not 58 or 59 days?
(when i asked you the question, "if God asks you to do something for two months , how many days in total you would do it for" ?)
siki
Belh
I am still waiting for your response on the above question that i asked sometime back.
siki
Quote from: Samia on September 14, 2009, 02:33:01 PM
Welcome back! It's been almost a year... 8)
Thanks and Peace to u..in fact i am always hooking up to FM although I'm not posting..FM is truly opensource :!
Quote from: Samia
I wouldn't consider 2 as part of ma3duudat, since it's mentioned as an exception for special circumsatnces of what would be accepted outside the ma3duudaat.
Minimum of ma3duudat: 3
Maximum: 10
1. That is what I am thinking before (2 days is exception), but after looking at the verse 2:203 again & again, my perspective have been changed.
وَاذْكُرُواْ اللّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْدُودَاتٍ
فَمَن تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ where 2 days was describe as acceptable period for remembrance and no explicit maximum no of days specified.
2. The 3 days siyaam fil hajj (or 10 days for a man/women who have their family coming together?) is a
compensation imposed (fidyah min siyamin aw sodaqatin aw nusuqin 2:196) for inability to send offering >
due to inability to perform hajj within even a minimum of 2 days as specified in 2:203. See that Quran is very specific when it comes to precision matters where 3 was clearly mentioned.
3. In short, you have to compensate with
3 days siyaam if you cannot make even
2 days remembrance4. If you
managed to make 2 days remembrances,
do we still need to compensate with 3 siyaam ? :!
5. Why 2 days be regarded as "exception"? Further, there is no "Illa" mentioned anywhere in this verse.
6. Thus ayyaman ma3dudat definition as per quran shall incorporate minimum 2 days..(anybody agree or mind boggling with this argument?) ;D
Peace, Ashraf
Salaam,
In my opinion, there is a clue on how we can determined scientifically the exact time when the very "1st" night of "scorching full moon" (or near full moon) happen, thus we can verify the year when quran was descended.
Quran was descended during Lailatul Qadr لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ أَلْفِ شَهْرٍ where during this special event night, the intensity of brightness, surface heat or temperature of the moon shall equivalent to 1000 ordinary full moon (other than this very unique night).
Probably there was someone outside there who is brilliant to work our the celestial object study of this very special moon.
Peace, Ashraf
Peace Ashraf,
Quote from: Ashraf on September 16, 2009, 01:27:30 AMIn my opinion, there is a clue on how we can determined scientifically the exact time when the very "1st" night of "scorching full moon" (or near full moon) happen, thus we can verify the year when quran was descended.
Quran was descended during Lailatul Qadr لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ أَلْفِ شَهْرٍ where during this special event night, the intensity of brightness, surface heat or temperature of the moon shall equivalent to 1000 ordinary full moon (other than this very unique night).
Probably there was someone outside there who is brilliant to work our the celestial object study of this very special moon.
The god says that the great reading is light. I think that the night of measure and the 1000 full-moons can be understood accordingly.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 01:36:21 AM
The god says that the great reading is light. I think that the night of measure and the 1000 full-moons can be understood accordingly.
Hi Ayman,
I already saw your argument before :). Probably they are more physical evidence to it, literal and real.
Peace, Ashraf
Peace,
Quote from: RasulHamsa on September 15, 2009, 03:58:58 PM
so according to your understanding: In the night time people actually do not experience "absence of light" but they experience darkness because there is no light of the sun in the night times? or may be the light is there its just us who are unable to see the light because of utter darkness?
Here is my solution for the darkness and light issue:
1. In verse 6:1 the God talks about the Darkness first and then Light
2. In other verses the God talks about rolling night over day and then day over night
3. In other verses the God talks about merging night and day
4. In other verses the God talks about night overtakes day
Conclusions from the above 4 points:
- Darkness and light are two different entity i.e. darkness is not a consequence of light (lack) as this would violate 6:1.
- Darkness existed before light
- Darkness is the starting point. For example, our day starts after sunset
- We start from darkness and then the God out of His mercy provide us with light to reveal SOME of the secret of darkness. As we know day cannot reveal what is inside our body, or what is in the depth of ocean, or the outer space, or inside the tree, etc. Therefore, day cannot get rid of darkness completely. Light has limited capability. Darkness is more capable than light (maybe more power?)
If you try to define darkness as ?absence of light? it will cause numerous problems which I don?t care to discuss here.
Remember even during day when we have direct sunlight, light cannot remove all the darkness.
Hope this answers your questions.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 16, 2009, 08:00:51 AMHere is my solution for the darkness and light issue:
The only issue is your lack of understanding. Everyone, even little kids, understand that day and night are related to the sun and have nothing to do with the moon. Also most people with any kind of education know that the only way to use day and night to measure the year is if the year is taken as the interval between solstices (longest/shortest day/night). Despite all your useless ranting, you use terms like "
sunset" (regardless of how it sets). If you lock yourself in a dark room, it doesn't mean that it is night. You don't seem to be able to understand even simple things like the fact that darkness and light are different concepts than night and day. Instead of sincerely trying to find the truth based on the great reading, your objective is to work backwards to justify your traditional timing. So you are completely lost and are in no position to find a solution for anything. If you want to find a solution for something then first find a solution for cleaning up your mind from all the traditional junk and cleaning up your heart from the idol/hero worship fetishes that you have for stone cubes and the so-called Sahaba. Maybe afterwards you will have a small chance of understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
Instead of sincerely trying to find the truth based on the great reading, your objective is to work backwards to justify your traditional timing.
Are you impersonating Ayman. Because the Ayman I am used to (this forum) does not care about the Quran. He wants to get famous by twisting God?s words in the Quran. Will real Ayman please stand up? Real Ayman will not succeed in putting out God?s message. This is guaranteed.
Salaam guest
Please keep to the topic and do not turn it into personal attacks. Be respectful to others.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 12:02:58 AM
Peace Belal,
This has already been answered. try to read before going in circles:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg215872#msg215872
This is a stupid question. How old are you? Do you know anyone who counts his or her age in lunar months?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
Ayman knows that in order for him or one of his follower to answer my two simple question, they will have to refute their own theory.
I will Ask them again...maybe one of you will have the guts to do...here are my TWO CORRELATED questions again; please note that you will need to answer the
two questions and NOT ONE, as Ayman is Proposing above :rotfl: (He is very sneaky Boy... ;D)
Challenge Starts here:
If what you and Ayman are proposing, we should ignore the moon #13 when calculating a Year, then, can you calculate for us the following, after reading this:
46:15 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says: �My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.�
46:15 ووصينا الإنسن بولديه إحسنا حملته أمه كرها ووضعته كرها وحمله وفصله ثلثون شهرا حتى إذا بلغ أشده وبلغ أربعين سنة قال رب أوزعني أن أشكر نعمتك التي أنعمت علي وعلى ولدي وأن أعمل صلحا ترضيه وأصلح لي في ذريتي إني تبت إليك وإني من المسلمين
1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse?
2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse?
Please let us give it one more chance to end this in an intelligent way.
Any one wants to answer, please do so.
peace
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 12:02:58 AM
o you know anyone who counts his or her age in lunar months
By the way Ayman, How many Months Did God Count in the mentioned 40 years?
Did God Count 40 X 12 = 480 Lunar Cycle?
Or, according to your theory, Did God discounted the Full Moon #13 every three year?
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2009, 12:47:55 AM
Belh
I am still waiting for your response on the above question that i asked sometime back.
siki
Peace,
I will do for two Moon Cycles--each Cycle could equal 29 or 30 days.
Peace belH
In your eagerness to debunk, you are splitting hair at the nano level!
It is not natural to count years using a lunar calendar, years is for a pure solar calendar.
So the years (sineen or aam that the Quran refer to are Solar years, not even luni-solar).
Now as a convenience, to mark twelve months, because Allah demands that a year be subdivided
in 12 months, we use the phases of the moon to help us, and lo and behold, most of the time, there are
12 full-moons every year, so wouldn't this be an obvious marker, with a word that also means moon and
famous at the same time shahar?
What you are asking for is spurious and idiotic, it is like asking how old will someone be who is born on a 29 February
after 60 years.
Let me give you what Imam Shafie did to someone a bit more extreme than you, but similar (he might have made sense in his day and age after all)
There was someone in a market who found a grain of rice on the floor, and was shouting as to whom it belonged, making a nuisance of himself and disturbing the peace.
Imam Shafie happened to be in the area, and asked for him to be arrested, asked him what was the fuss about, the guy said he did not want to be punished for not returning a lost property to its owner, Imam Shafie asked him to repent, as he refused, he was flogged 20 lashes...
You get the drift?
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
What straw-man? You were defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar where ?ramadhan? can occur at any haphazard time, even in the cold of winter. Either you believe that the god uses the word ?scorching/hot? haphazardly and ?ramadhan? can be during the cold of winter or you agree with me that the timing for ?ramadhan/scorching/hot must be during the hot time of the year. There is no other choice and this is irrespective of whether ?shahr? means full-moon, crescent, or month.
I disagree with your translation and understanding including the meaning of shahr ramadhan.
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
Using your logic, I could also say that you are issuing a ?fatwa? FORCING the blind and those in cloudy weather to fast.
You're make it same as the blind, lame, or sick who don't have to fight. (48:17)
80:1-2 Frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man
2:183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious).
33:35 ...the men and the women who observe Saum (fast)...
Nothing about blind and cloudy weather; actually they do it for their own soul/benefit.
22:46...it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind.
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
I suggest that you reread 2:185 and see that it clearly says ?man shahid minkum? (whoever witnesses from amongst you). What is the purpose of saying whoever witnesses from amongst you, unless some amongst you will not witness? Who are the people AMONGST YOU (the believers) who will not witness according to you?
Reread 2:84 and see they are those who DO NOT "intent" to fast AMONGST YOU; e.g. the sick, old, or opt to feed the poor.
2:184 And that you fast is better for you if only you know. (blind and those living in monsoons included)
Quote from: ayman on September 14, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
You are misreading the data. The info gives the times when hunting is ALLOWED not when hunting is restricted. Now read again and see how the protection mostly overlaps except a few times for the animals whose hunting season starts in mid September and the difference is only for a couple of weeks on average.
I agree completely. So by the same token, the restriction is about protecting wild life all over the world from humans who hunt them for food during the period of the FOUR inviolable ?shahr? and not just around Mecca
Global restriction after the solstice allows killing in the other 8 months. Invite thousands of people to a vicinity and tell them hunt except for late summer/fall then see what happens to the wildlife as with the Buffalo and Arabian Onyx which breed year round.
Arabian Onyx hunted to extinction
(http://www.arabian-oryx.gov.sa/images/archive2.jpg)
Why buffalo disappeared
(http://rvtravel.com/blog/chuck/uploaded_images/Bison_skull_pile,_ca1870-772015.png)
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2009, 12:47:55 AM
Belh
I am still waiting for your response on the above question that i asked sometime back.
siki
Your question was answered sometime back; count #of dawns to sunsets (i.e. Quranic days) between moon cycles.
We're still waiting for you to answer how many days are they free to travel from "the day" of proclamation?
9:2 فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin (full moons according to you)?
9:3 واذان And proclamation من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الناس the people يوم (on) day الحج the hajj الاكبر the greatest?
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 16, 2009, 08:22:16 PMI disagree with your translation and understanding including the meaning of shahr ramadhan.
When it comes to "ramadhan", it is not my translation or understanding. All Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly say that it means "hot/scorching". If you disagree with the meaning of "ramadhan" and think that it can mean "cold" then you are imagining a false meaning. If you don't know the meaning then you are in no position to agree or disagree with anything. Just so that you don't say that I am building a strawman, please tell us what you think "ramadhan" means or admit that you don't know the meaning.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 16, 2009, 08:22:16 PMYou're make it same as the blind, lame, or sick who don't have to fight. (48:17)
80:1-2 Frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man
2:183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious).
33:35 ...the men and the women who observe Saum (fast)...
Nothing about blind and cloudy weather; actually they do it for their own soul/benefit.
22:46...it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind.
Reread 2:84 and see they are those who DO NOT "intent" to fast AMONGST YOU; e.g. the sick, old, or opt to feed the poor.
2:184 And that you fast is better for you if only you know. (blind and those living in monsoons included)
So what is the purpose of saying "whoever witnessed the shahr amongst you"?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 16, 2009, 08:22:16 PMGlobal restriction after the solstice allows killing in the other 8 months. Invite thousands of people to a vicinity and tell them hunt except for late summer/fall then see what happens to the wildlife as with the Buffalo and Arabian Onyx which breed year round.
Arabian Onyx hunted to extinction
Why buffalo disappeared
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would save the Arabian Onyx or the buffalo according to your timing?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 16, 2009, 08:22:16 PMYour question was answered sometime back; count #of dawns to sunsets (i.e. Quranic days) between moon cycles.
We're still waiting for you to answer how many days are they free to travel from "the day" of proclamation?
9:2 فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin (full moons according to you)?
9:3 واذان And proclamation من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الناس the people يوم (on) day الحج the hajj الاكبر the greatest?
Before I answer, who said it is from the day of proclamation in 9:3? The travel the land for four full-moons is already decreed before the proclamation in 9:3. The bigger "hajj" happened between the decree in 9:2 and the ending of the inviolable full-moons. So it must have happened on one of the inviolable full-moons.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 16, 2009, 06:33:52 PM
Peace,
I will do for two Moon Cycles--each Cycle could equal 29 or 30 days.
That's like a good boy;
So now you understand that there can not be a thing like "a Month" in God's system, because it would have created a dilemma for an individual.
Moon cycle/cycles is the correct answer.Ok one more Question, If you have to do something for one/two/three moon cycles, would you like to do it any day/tomorrow (picking up and remembering the shape of moon at night, till when the same returns) or, for your own ease you would like to delay your start from a certain prominent shape of moon?
(Before answering above, you must keep in mind the situation of people a few thousand years back)
siki
Quote from: theNabster on September 16, 2009, 08:16:34 PM
Peace belH
In your eagerness to debunk, you are splitting hair at the nano level!
:o you and Ayman, and all of his followers sound like the Iman of the Suni Masjed that I used to go to...He used to get angry when I ask him a question that he does not have an answer for; moreover, he used to say that we should not think and use our brain to understand the Quran; however, I used to remind him that God wants us to use our brain and think logically, otherwise, he would make us live like animals or worse.
Please, I'm asking you to tech me without making fun of my ignorance.
Can you take a deep breath and answer to the following:
If what you and Ayman are proposing, we should ignore the moon #13 when calculating a Year, then, can you calculate for us the following, after reading this:
46:15 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says: �My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.�
46:15 ووصينا الإنسن بولديه إحسنا حملته أمه كرها ووضعته كرها وحمله وفصله ثلثون شهرا حتى إذا بلغ أشده وبلغ أربعين سنة قال رب أوزعني أن أشكر نعمتك التي أنعمت علي وعلى ولدي وأن أعمل صلحا ترضيه وأصلح لي في ذريتي إني تبت إليك وإني من المسلمين
1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse? (please simply write the number)
2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse? (Please simply write the number)
Any one wants to answer, please do so.
peace
Quote from: siki on September 16, 2009, 09:17:31 PM
Ok one more Question, If you have to do something for one/two/three moon cycles, would you like to do it any day/tomorrow (picking up and remembering the shape of moon at night, till when the same returns) or, for your own ease you would like to delay your start from a certain prominent shape of moon?
Peace,
If I want to count from tomorrow, it will depend on what is nature of this thing. If it is related to my Job, which uses today's calender, I will count from 9/16 to 12/15.
But if it is related to God's religion (e.g., fasting for three month), it will start from the Ramadan 27 to Dhu al-Hijjah 26.
Peace belH
I am certainly not making fun of your ignorance that will be a sin.
but your getting annoying with your insistence on useless matters that will not add to your knowledge if answered, just mabe to your skills, and as I said before, I am not into spoon feeding...
I will give you a hint though from the gregorian calendar, if you were to know say how much money you earn every week, will you be able to work how much you earn pcm (that is per calendar month), and vice versa if you were to know how much money you earned every year, wouldn't you be able by the same token to work oout your earning per week and per calendar month?
This is basic accounting.
So do your own calculations , and if you are using a man made calendar, you will need a point of reference, i.e a start, you cannot evade that, and I think this is where your confusion (and Ayman's btw) comes from about debunking, and being right.
As for me, I am very satisfied, unless Allah shows me otherwise, that ramadan describes the full moon that marks the month just after the summer solstice.
We still need to work out a point (time) of reference to start the calendar, that does not depend on the moon, and I suggest the summer solstice itself...
and a space of reference (so we get a mean time so other areas of the globe compare to, like the current GMT, maybe JMT Jerusalem MT)...
or we can keep the current solar calendar and juxtapose on it a luni-solar one that takes into account that ramadan is the first full moon after the summer solstice (that could be more practical)...
or take Ayman suggestion, which I have nothing against, i.e staring the year with the actual ramadan full moon.
Any of these will require adjustments anyway, and this is accounting work...
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
The only issue is your lack of understanding. Everyone, even little kids, understand that day and night are related to the sun and have nothing to do with the moon.
First lesson: it is not ?day and night? rather darkness (night) and day. Why do you insist on doing thing opposite of the God?s way? Why be so unappreciative. Did He not give you two eyes, a brain, two hands, education, shelter, food, and many more things? Please show your appreciation. Give thanks to God, the more you thank Him the more He gives.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
Also most people with any kind of education know that the only way to use day and night to measure the year is if the year is taken as the interval between solstices (longest/shortest day/night).
Between solstice gets you half a year, I think you meant between two June solstices. We will overlook this minor mistake.
Nights and days are used for counting numbers of days within a moon cycle. 12 moon cycles = 1 year. It is that simple.
The reason people invested so much effort in establishing an accurate solar calendar is because an accurate solar calendar equates to making more money i.e. optimum plantation means more crop and more crop = more money. Solar calendar has nothing to do with the religion.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
Despite all your useless ranting, you use terms like "sunset" (regardless of how it sets).
I am using sunset, sunrise, east, and west per Quranic point of view. Here are couples of examples.
50:39 - Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise, and before sunset.
2: 258 - Have you noted the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord, though GOD had given him kingship? Abraham said, "My Lord grants life and death." He said, "I grant life and death." Abraham said, "GOD brings the sun from the east, can you bring it from the west?" The disbeliever was stumped. GOD does not guide the wicked.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
If you lock yourself in a dark room, it doesn't mean that it is night.
Are you suggesting that inside the dark room is a day? Or inside the grave is a day? Or at the center of the earth is a day? Or depth of an ocean is a day?
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
You don't seem to be able to understand even simple things like the fact that darkness and light are different concepts than night and day.
I do, I follow the Quranic definition. You follow the dictionary definition. Ayman is cooking his own goose.
79: 29 ? He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
Instead of sincerely trying to find the truth based on the great reading, your objective is to work backwards to justify your traditional timing.
You are not in a position to talk about truth because you follow your own misguided way and not God?s way. You are working backward: you start with a dictionary meaning and then manipulate it to fit Quranic meaning. This is your ugly backward approach.
Here is an example:
Quote from Ayman (Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 03:56:18 PM):
?There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.
However, one can indirectly verify the meaning.?
And more evidence of such manipulation is readily available.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
and cleaning up your heart from the idol/hero worship fetishes that you have for stone cubes and the so-called Sahaba.
I don?t worship idol. It is you who is trying to force yourself on to others as an idol. But you will not succeed. Truth shall overtake your falsehood.
You are committing sin by falsely accusing others of idol worship. Produce your evidence or shut-up. Otherwise you are eating the flesh of your dead brother, and enjoying it.
49:12 - O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Peace,
Quote from: Samia on September 16, 2009, 04:38:25 PM
Salaam guest
Please keep to the topic and do not turn it into personal attacks. Be respectful to others.
Thanks for your cooperation.
You are trying to portray yourself as a nice person but your action proves otherwise. Why were you silent when Ayman made the below comment?
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 08:42:58 PM
Peace everyone,
As everyone can see from his own contradictory words, Guest is either a hypocrite, mentally challenged or both (most likely). Peace,
Ayman
Peace guest
dhulumatt and nuur
are two opposing ghaib matters that we cannot fully see in our universe, even if Allah has given us clues (with parables and analogies, as He often does to build up from things we know to things we do not know) as what He means by them,
they have nothing to do with Layl, and Nahar which are linked to the rotation of the Earth around the Sun, but which appear for all intents and purposes to an observer on Earth as the result of the Sun revolving around the Earth.
The Quran audience were not "geniuses" like you, but normal people who use normal day to day concept, now if you can deign move down from your aura and pedestal of great mufti, imam, amir, and knower, you will be able to communicate with us mere mortals.
The Quran was revealed to average intelligence mere mortals, who need guidance to help them in their daily lives, not to make that harder...
Otherwise, different versions would have been printed, ones for the intelligent like you, and ones for the idiots like the rest of us...
Hope you feel satisfied now, you can also use Saturn instead of the Moon and see if I care...
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:37:43 AM
Peace,
You are trying to portray yourself as a nice person but your action proves otherwise. Why were you silent when Ayman made the below comment?
Quote from: ayman on September 13, 2009, 08:42:58 PM
Peace everyone,
As everyone can see from his own contradictory words, Guest is either a hypocrite, mentally challenged or both (most likely).
Peace,
Ayman
I know many used some harsh words against each others within their response, but when one dedicates a post just to attack another this will be unacceptable. Those who repeat this may get up to a ban.
So you see I
am a nice person, not pretending to be.
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse? (please simply write the number)
You are asking an irrelevant question. Either you have not understood a single post of this thread or you are playing dumb. What I am saying has nothing to do with manmade "months" and the word "month" (like week) never appears in the great reading. What do you mean by your vague "months". Do you mean February or Tammouz or Zhul Al-Higgah or an imaginary 30 day period, etc.? On the other hand, everyone understands what is meant by "full-moon".
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse? (Please simply write the number)
This will depend on how long before or how long after a full-moon or a waxing crescent you were born. Please tell us what your definition of month is. If it is from waxing crescent to waxing crescent then before asking others, tell us the answer to your question according to your own definition.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMFirst lesson: it is not ?day and night? rather darkness (night) and day. Why do you insist on doing thing opposite of the God?s way? Why be so unappreciative. Did He not give you two eyes, a brain, two hands, education, shelter, food, and many more things? Please show your appreciation. Give thanks to God, the more you thank Him the more He gives.
You are contradicting yourself. You can lock yourself forever in a dark room during the day. This doesn't mean that there is no day and that the god stopped rolling the day and night.
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMBetween solstice gets you half a year, I think you meant between two June solstices. We will overlook this minor mistake.
You know what I meant but you are not smart enough to get beyond labels and see the true nature of things. The true nature of things is that there will be exactly one year between the longest day/shortest night and the next longest day/shortest night. Same goes for the shortest day/longest night and the next shortest day/longest night.
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMNights and days are used for counting numbers of days within a moon cycle. 12 moon cycles = 1 year. It is that simple.
No they are not. The moon cycle has nothing to do with the number of days. It has to do with the sighting or calculaiton of a certain phase of the moon. Thus, you don't always get the same number of days in a moon cycle.
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMThe reason people invested so much effort in establishing an accurate solar calendar is because an accurate solar calendar equates to making more money i.e. optimum plantation means more crop and more crop = more money. Solar calendar has nothing to do with the religion.
Are you saying that crops and animals follow something different then "islam"?
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMI am using sunset, sunrise, east, and west per Quranic point of view. Here are couples of examples.
50:39 - Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise, and before sunset.
2: 258 - Have you noted the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord, though GOD had given him kingship? Abraham said, "My Lord grants life and death." He said, "I grant life and death." Abraham said, "GOD brings the sun from the east, can you bring it from the west?" The disbeliever was stumped. GOD does not guide the wicked.
Exactly. It is SUNset not LIGHTset.
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMAre you suggesting that inside the dark room is a day? Or inside the grave is a day? Or at the center of the earth is a day? Or depth of an ocean is a day?
Are you suggesting that the god stops merging day and night when you are inside a dark room? Whether you are in a dark room and whether you are dead or alive and whether humans existed or not, the god is merging day and night.
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMI do, I follow the Quranic definition. You follow the dictionary definition. Ayman is cooking his own goose.
79: 29 ? He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.
You are not in a position to talk about truth because you follow your own misguided way and not God?s way. You are working backward: you start with a dictionary meaning and then manipulate it to fit Quranic meaning. This is your ugly backward approach.
But you are saying that night is 100% equivalent to dark. To say he "made its dark dark" is nonsense.
Quote from: guest on September 17, 2009, 08:18:05 AMI don?t worship idol. It is you who is trying to force yourself on to others as an idol. But you will not succeed. Truth shall overtake your falsehood.
You are committing sin by falsely accusing others of idol worship. Produce your evidence or shut-up. Otherwise you are eating the flesh of your dead brother, and enjoying it.
If you don't worship Umar then tell everyone how you base your timing on the god authority alone and not on what Umar did or did not do.
42:21
أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةُ الْفَصْلِ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
If you don't worship the stone cube and the black stone then denounce revering those inert useless objects and mindlessly spinning around them, waving at them, fondling them and kissing them.
25:55
وَيَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لَا يَنفَعُهُمْ وَلَا يَضُرُّهُمْ وَكَانَ الْكَافِرُ عَلَى رَبِّهِ ظَهِيرًا
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 12:31:03 AMBut if it is related to God's religion (e.g., fasting for three month), it will start from the Ramadan 27 to Dhu al-Hijjah 26.
If you were on a deserted island and didn't have access to a calendar and decided to fast then how would you fast your three "months"?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace theNabster,
Quote from: theNabster on September 17, 2009, 09:38:21 AM
Peace guest
dhulumatt and nuur
The Quran audience were not "geniuses" like you, but normal people who use normal day to day concept, now if you can deign move down from your aura and pedestal of great mufti, imam, amir, and knower, you will be able to communicate with us mere mortals.
The Quran was revealed to average intelligence mere mortals, who need guidance to help them in their daily lives, not to make that harder...
Otherwise, different versions would have been printed, ones for the intelligent like you, and ones for the idiots like the rest of us...
Hope you feel satisfied now, you can also use Saturn instead of the Moon and see if I care...
The Quran was revealed to the mankind. Why are you making false attributes about me and others? Please make your point on the main topic. Thank you.
Peace guest
I love you too...
please do not take it too personally, i take pills...
Quran was revealed to Mankind and Jinns, btw...
sorry for using Saturn...
Salam
PS I was imam for a while ;)
Peace all,
It seems that both Ayaman and Nabster are not up for the challange and running away from answering very simple Two Questions in a straight forward way.
Her are my humbled answers to the two questions:
30 month (moon cycle) = 2.5 years
40 years = 40 x 12 moon cycle = 480 month
I know there are many of you out their who can identify that Ayman and his followers are trying to twist every Quranic verse to fit their ideology that has been promoted for the past 400 years or more...The ideology that represent Satin's Oath that he took upon himself to mislead Adams's sons and daughter from God's well-established guidance.
If I misunderstood Ayman and his followers, then let them prove me wrong by providing straight forward answers to my two CORRELATED Questions...otherwise, this Thread should be closed and lift for the readers to decide their own religion. Unless this happened by the help of Free-Minds Moderators, this thread will continue to be the battle ground for Satin to spread Stupidity and misguidance among Adam's Children.
May God complete His Light and Spread His Mercy upon all of those who are seeking his Truth. :sun:
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 09:20:14 PM
Peace all,
It seems that both Ayaman and Nabster are not up for the challange and running away from answering very simple Two Questions in a straight forward way.
Her are my humbled answers to the two questions:
30 month (moon cycle) = 2.5 years
40 years = 40 x 12 moon cycle = 480 month
Thus, The CORRELATION is: God is descripting the first 2.5 years (30 month) of our life, and then, what a believer would say after 37.5 years (450 moon cycles) passes after the first mentioned period (30 month).
I know there are many of you out their who can identify that Ayman and his followers are trying to twist every Quranic verse to fit their ideology that has been promoted for the past 400 years or more...The ideology that represent Satin's Oath that he took upon himself to mislead Adams's sons and daughter from God's well-established guidance.
If I misunderstood Ayman and his followers, then let them prove me wrong by providing straight forward answers to my two CORRELATED Questions...otherwise, this Thread should be closed and lift for the readers to decide their own religion. Unless this happened by the help of Free-Minds Moderators, this thread will continue to be the battle ground for Satin to spread Stupidity and misguidance among Adam's Children.
May God complete His Light and Spread His Mercy upon all of those who are seeking his Truth. :sun:
Peace,
I forgot added the CORRELATION between my two questions...here it is:
The CORRELATION is:
God is descripting the first 2.5 years (30 month) of our life, and then, what a believer would say after 37.5 years (450 moon cycles) passes after the first mentioned period (30 month).
Peace belH
How about this Ayat then?
31:14 And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in
weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years give thanks to
Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.
The times you refer to are not set in stone. It is like puberty, or growing a beard, or walking, or talking, for each human it is
slightly different, you cannot build a rule on that.
You are the one being tested, and please stop calling anything that disturb your little comfort zone satanic, I think satan
is very happy with you, and all the sectarians and cultists.
Now let me ask you an important question:
Did the Fatimids read in the Quran to side with the Crusaders to fight against the Jews and Muslims and give Jerusalem to the
Christians?
How about all the crimes that were made in the name of Islam, was it the Quran that asked them to do them?
Why are you making your life and that of people difficult by creating exaggeration in Allah's Deen.
Didn't Allah say to the Prophet that He did not send the Quran for him to be in hardship?
Good you worked out a conversion, which you probably started with in the first place (i.e you knew the answer), but
can't you at least consider the possibility that you are wrong?
I will not be as arrogant as you in your shoes.
This hadith that says that we must do the opposite of everything that the People of the Book do is rubbish.
For starters, why are you using their stuff? their TV's and computers, and fridges, and planes, and water purification systems, and cars, and medical facilities, etc. who are doing the Islamic stuff you or them?
Go back and crawl to a little cave where you might belong, because according to that hadith you should not be using any of that stuff, and nor any of the sectarians, this is sheer hypocrisy...
and don't give me that cheap retort that I am abusing you, because you do sting as well every now and then.
Maybe if the "muslims" stop being such losers, we will be able to have some pride back, but not with an attitude like this...
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
You are contradicting yourself. You can lock yourself forever in a dark room during the day. This doesn't mean that there is no day and that the god stopped rolling the day and night.
There is no contradiction in my statement. Your response is irrelevant. You need time to comprehend a written statement. Therefore, take your time and do not rush with an irrelevant response. This is bad for you.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
You know what I meant but you are not smart enough to get beyond labels and see the true nature of things. The true nature of things is that there will be exactly one year between the longest day/shortest night and the next longest day/shortest night. Same goes for the shortest day/longest night and the next shortest day/longest night.
I simply corrected a mistake you made. Instead of thanking me (an attribute of a good person) you are calling me not smart. You made the mistake, not me. This is unquranic. Anyway, you are welcome.
It is not easy to implement ?longest day/shortest night and the next longest day/shortest? concept without modern technology. I have challenged you on this point in one of my previous post but you failed to answer it. Primitive people could not have implemented this concept without making significant errors. This invalidates your assertion that solstice based timing system is easily implemented by primitive people.
I don?t want to spend more time beating a dead horse.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
No they are not. The moon cycle has nothing to do with the number of days. It has to do with the sighting or calculaiton of a certain phase of the moon. Thus, you don't always get the same number of days in a moon cycle.
For your information 1 moon cycle = 29.5x days. The God has given us the knowledge and the basic ingredients to calculate moon cycle precisely using days. The new moon marks the beginning of a month.
It is your system that does not give same number days within moon cycles. Therefore, it is a no brainer that your system will be rejected by any sensible person.
The God said we can use night (dark) and day to calculate time. Therefore, I can use it to calculate moon cycle, solar cycle (earth going around sun), planet cycle, comet cycle?. You are the one who is restricting its uses to solar cycle only. This is a violation of Quranic law. Only foolish people will go along with you. We only accepts God?s law and not yours or anyone else?s.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
Are you saying that crops and animals follow something different then "islam"?
Crops and animals follow system that has been designed for them by the God. Our timing system is not the same as theirs just like our digestive system is not the same as theirs.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
Exactly. It is SUNset not LIGHTset.
Exactly, it is not NIGHTset or DAYset.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
Are you suggesting that the god stops merging day and night when you are inside a dark room? Whether you are in a dark room and whether you are dead or alive and whether humans existed or not, the god is merging day and night.
What is inside the darkroom when it is night (dark) outside?
What is inside the darkroom when it is day outside?
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
But you are saying that night is 100% equivalent to dark. To say he "made its dark dark" is nonsense.
Your understanding is nonsense. Right understanding is Night=dark.
Quote from: ayman on September 17, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
If you don't worship Umar then tell everyone how you base your timing on the god authority alone and not on what Umar did or did not do.
I just described the timing system above and in numerous posts. This system was practiced by Prophet Muhammad and it is 100% consistence with God?s law.
Your timing system is good for animals.
Peace guest
What are you talking about,
even the greek and the romans had sun "clocks" they used that allowed them to calculate the length of the day, using shadows, and the egyptians as early as 3500 BC, with the Sumerians well before that-
so, bro, on the contrary, it was very easy especially in that area of the world to know precisely the longest day and shortest night.
You too need to think before you speak :)
Salam
beside you all the way ;)
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 18, 2009, 09:53:30 AM
so, bro, on the contrary, it was very easy especially in that area of the world to know precisely the longest day and shortest night.
You too need to think before you speak :)
Salam
The length of days around summer solstice is the same i.e. June 19 thru June 22 the day lengths are equal. How do you determine which is the longest day. If you factor in the full moon around June solstice, an error of 30 days is a certainty. You get more accurate system if you don't use the June solstice in the primitive days.
I posted the following on August 31, 2009 @ 03:37:47
Now, please refute the below statement and tell us how primitive people determined the summer solstice accurately.
Unlike the equinox, the solstice time is not easy to determine. The changes in Solar declination become smaller as the sun gets closer to its maximum/minimum declination. The days before and after the solstice, the declination speed is less than 30 arcseconds/day which is less than 1/60th of the angular size of the sun, or the equivalent to just 2 seconds of right ascension.
This difference is hardly detectable with indirect viewing based devices like sextant equipped with a vernier, and impossible with more traditional tools like a gnomon or an astrolabe. It is also hard to detect the changes on sunrise/sunset azimuth due to the atmospheric refraction changes. Those accuracy issues render impossible to determine the solstice day based on observations made within the 3 (or even 5) days surrounding the solstice, without the use of more complex tools.
Peace guest
The answer shouts in your face.
After a first few observations, take the first day that came, and each year adjust...
Do nor overestimate those guys from the past. They were very good at figuring out patterns, what they lacked in technology, they made up with acumen and craftsmanship...
By the way, there is nothing in the Quran that imposes a particular calendar on us, and so if it is easier with the Equinox, I say start counting from the Spring or Autumn Equinox.
Still Ramadan will be at the scorching month.
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 18, 2009, 01:51:53 PM
By the way, there is nothing in the Quran that imposes a particular calendar on us, and so if it is easier with the Equinox, I say start counting from the Spring or Autumn Equinox.
You just defeated Ayman's theory.
I don't agree with you on the hot month.
Peace guest,
nobody is defeating anybody.
calendars are set up by organisations approved which approve standards nowadays.
in the old days, it was set up to suit kings and rulers' fancy, or by whoever had the power at the time.
you, me and ayman are at the moment just little pawns, who are being tested.
we do not know Allah's grand design or end game.
for sure, it does not include the sectarians, otherwise, they wouldn't have gone from ignominy to ignominy
since the destruction of the Abassides.
The Fatimides were big traitors and fought against their own brethren to give away Jerusalem.
The Shia split, and formed their own fantasy and mythology (based on a set of hadith mind you, charming).
Then came the Wahabis who also betrayed the Ottomans the same way the Fatimids betrayed the Muslims of their day...
Are these the signs of a people that God will choose as His Peacemakers on Earth, I doubt it?
Ayman's proposal is not a theory, but it is based on Signs that He extracted from the Quran. I personally am not very good at astronomy, I can follow just, so I will be lying to say that I can vouch for it 100%, so you are telling me it is not practical, so if it is not, and you are a man of good faith, and you know what you are talking about, and you did your due diligence about the way people of old computed time, and you came to this conclusion, then I will have to agree with you...
However, if your intention, is to debunk just because you have made up your mind already, and no matter what, you will be choosing something the majority of the current non-thinking relying on scholars majority is doing, then, you are a danger to yourself and to those who listen to you...
Ramadan is the only word referring to a month in the Quran, that also means scorching hot, but you are stubborn enough to ignore this fact, that gives me a clue about your character though...
And Allah knows best...
Peace Belal and Guest,
I will respond to both of you to save time since it doesn't matter what specific points you guys post because it is all a bunch of nonsense anyway.
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 09:20:14 PMIt seems that both Ayaman and Nabster are not up for the challange and running away from answering very simple Two Questions in a straight forward way.
Her are my humbled answers to the two questions:
30 month (moon cycle) = 2.5 years
40 years = 40 x 12 moon cycle = 480 month
30 month (Gregorian months) = 2.5 years
40 years = 40 x 12 Gregorian months = 480 month
What you posted can be applied to any calendar. So the only thing you proved is that your are using fallacious circular reasoning.
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 09:20:14 PMI know there are many of you out their who can identify that Ayman and his followers are trying to twist every Quranic verse to fit their ideology that has been promoted for the past 400 years or more...The ideology that represent Satin's Oath that he took upon himself to mislead Adams's sons and daughter from God's well-established guidance.
If I misunderstood Ayman and his followers, then let them prove me wrong by providing straight forward answers to my two CORRELATED Questions...otherwise, this Thread should be closed and lift for the readers to decide their own religion. Unless this happened by the help of Free-Minds Moderators, this thread will continue to be the battle ground for Satin to spread Stupidity and misguidance among Adam's Children.
May God complete His Light and Spread His Mercy upon all of those who are seeking his Truth. :sun:
If Guest and you are really sincere and think that you are not stupid and are not misguided followers of satan, then instead of continuously spewing nonsense on this thread and being obsessed with me and what I think, just forget about me and explain to everyone the following:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap. If you can do it then I will admit that I was wrong and follow your timing. Surely this should be a piece of cake for two bright guys like you. Fair enough?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace ayman
I second that...
there is nothing more sickening than the ignorance of the stubborn...
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
Peace Belal and Guest,
I will respond to both of you to save time since it doesn't matter what specific points you guys post because it is all a bunch of nonsense anyway.
30 month (Gregorian months) = 2.5 years
40 years = 40 x 12 Gregorian months = 480 month
What you posted can be applied to any calendar. So the only thing you proved is that your are using fallacious circular reasoning.
If Guest and you are really sincere and think that you are not stupid and are not misguided followers of satan, then instead of continuously spewing nonsense on this thread and being obsessed with me and what I think, just forget about me and explain to everyone the following:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order of the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
If you can do it then I will admit that I was wrong and follow your timing. Surely this should be a piece of cake for two bright guys like you. Fair enough?
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
Peace Belal and Guest,
I will respond to both of you to save time since it doesn't matter what specific points you guys post because it is all a bunch of nonsense anyway.
30 month (Gregorian months) = 2.5 years
40 years = 40 x 12 Gregorian months = 480 month
Peace all,
Ayman, it seems that you are trying to ignore your own theory, Shahar = Full Moon and not a MONTH, when answering my two Questions :!
Is it because, using your theory to answer the two question would put you in position that you would have to refute it?
Be honest with yourself and us, and explain why your theory cannot be used to answer the two questions...And if you do so, you will earn my and everyone respect.
Quote from: theNabster on September 17, 2009, 04:32:22 PM
PS I was imam for a while ;)
:rotfl: I knew it...By the way, you still sound like one.
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
If you can do it then I will admit that I was wrong and follow your timing. Surely this should be a piece of cake for two bright guys like you. Fair enough?
Thank you for your valuable proposal...I promise you that I will answer it again, but after you answer my two question using your theory: Shahar= One Full Moon.
Peace belH
Do not laugh too soon, I was leading Professors and Phd students in a Western University, and even with them
they considered me too progressive for their comfort.
But I do not have to justify myself to you, you are a failure so far as Allah's testing is concerned, which is worse than
any failure you will get from academia or engineering.
You have the complete wrong attitude to looking for the Truth, you think it is first within you, and you try to confirm it,
worse you do your utmost to cling to it.
The Truth is with Allah's and He has given you tools that you misuse pretty badly, even the tool of humility,
you do not seem to have, you are so cocky about your self righteousness that you refuse to contemplate
the possibility to look for another approach.
And Allah will ask you why you did not use in excess of His Word, the environment, and the people around you, and the technologies, and any means necessary to find out the Truth.
Yet you are stuck with decisions made for you by scholars in the 8th century and thereafter, and do not seem able or courageous enough to question their wisdom, or the accuracy of their approaches.
In my view, you are an intellectual coward...
and when challenged, you invoke Satan...
well the disbelievers like you invoked Magic...
You really do not interest me anymore, ana baree-un minka...
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 18, 2009, 09:58:50 PMAyman, it seems that you are trying to ignore your own theory, Shahar = Full Moon and not a MONTH, when answering my two Questions :!
You are just upset that I demonstrated that your question and answer about months and years is the same exact question and answer about the Gregorian calendar. Therefore your question and answer are irrelevant.
Quote from: belH on September 18, 2009, 09:58:50 PMIs it because, using your theory to answer the two question would put you in position that you would have to refute it?
Be honest with yourself and us, and explain why your theory cannot be used to answer the two questions...And if you do so, you will earn my and everyone respect.
Anyone can see that 30 full-moons are 30 full-moons. Your claim that they are equivalent to 2.5 years is just your baseless claim. The god never said that they are 2.5 years. As for how many full-moons are in 40 years, there is a year with 13 full-moons every 3 years so it is going to be about 493 full moons, give or take depending on when one was actually born relative to the full-moon. On the other hand, the Gregorian calendar was used to answer your two stupid questions and produced the SAME EXACT answers as you. So according to your logic this means that we should all fast according to the Gregorian calendar now.
Quote from: belH on September 18, 2009, 09:58:50 PMThank you for your valuable proposal...I promise you that I will answer it again, but after you answer my two question using your theory: Shahar= One Full Moon.
You are obsessed with me. Forget about me and stop using me as an excuse for your mental laziness. Your stupid questions have nothing to do with the fact that your traditional arbitrary timing is not based on the great reading. You are just hanging at straws because you know that you have NOTHING.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 17, 2009, 10:28:12 PM
Peace,
I forgot added the CORRELATION between my two questions...here it is:
The CORRELATION is: God is descripting the first 2.5 years (30 month) of our life, and then, what a believer would say after 37.5 years (450 moon cycles) passes after the first mentioned period (30 month).
Belh,
What do you want to prove with this?
I have tried my best to understand the reason/wisdom behind this question of yours, but have failed.
Moreover , I have told you so many times that Month is an inaccurate/inconsistent unit of measure, and hence any command using the term Month cannot be full filled due inherent ambiguity in its definition. As the Book/GOD is perfect, hence He did not use this unit, and opted to use marker, (shahar) what ever time period they give us (29 or 30)Let me try and explain to you yet another way ,
If you are commanded to do something for , let us say , a second, or a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a week, or a year, there will be no confusion in your mind as to how many time units (lets say in seconds) you have to carry out a certain exercise, where as Month is the only man made unit which would give you so many options to choose from, 28, 29 ,30, or 31 days or its smaller units of hour/minutes/seconds.
That is why God does not use this unit.If you cant grasp this simple logic, then i am afraid, there are only three possibilities, "you have a frozen brain", if not true , then an "idiotic attitude", and if both are not true, then i am afraid , as Nabeel said, "your mind is in complete grip of Satan", do something about it .
siki
Peace all,
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2009, 11:20:02 PM
Anyone can see that 30 full-moons are 30 full-moons. Your claim that they are equivalent to 2.5 years is just your baseless claim. The god never said that they are 2.5 years.
If 2.5 years is not the right answer, based on your theory, how many years are the 30 Shaher that are mentioned in the verse equal to?
Quote from: theNabster on September 18, 2009, 10:55:43 PM
Peace belH
Do not laugh too soon, I was leading Professors and Phd students in a Western University, and even with them
they considered me too progressive for their comfort.
But I do not have to justify myself to you, you are a failure so far as Allah's testing is concerned, which is worse than
any failure you will get from academia or engineering.
You have the complete wrong attitude to looking for the Truth, you think it is first within you, and you try to confirm it,
worse you do your utmost to cling to it.
The Truth is with Allah's and He has given you tools that you misuse pretty badly, even the tool of humility,
you do not seem to have, you are so cocky about your self righteousness that you refuse to contemplate
the possibility to look for another approach.
And Allah will ask you why you did not use in excess of His Word, the environment, and the people around you, and the technologies, and any means necessary to find out the Truth.
Yet you are stuck with decisions made for you by scholars in the 8th century and thereafter, and do not seem able or courageous enough to question their wisdom, or the accuracy of their approaches.
In my view, you are an intellectual coward...
and when challenged, you invoke Satan...
well the disbelievers like you invoked Magic...
You really do not interest me anymore, ana baree-un minka...
:rotfl: Your ego is about to explode...Imam.
God does not love the arrogant who shows off.
Soon your knowledge (if you have any) will diminish, and your students' will prosper. Then, your ego will die with you.
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 12:03:28 AM
Moreover , I have told you so many times that Month is an inaccurate/inconsistent unit of measure, and hence any command using the term Month cannot be full filled due inherent ambiguity in its definition.
Peace all,
You are wrong about this. Here is one from the many examples of which the Prophet had fulfilled by measuring accurately the Month period:
Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
9:2 فسيحوا في الأرض أربعة أشهر واعلموا أنكم غير معجزي الله وأن الله مخزي الكفرين
So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the bond, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:5 فإذا انسلخ الأشهر الحرم فاقتلوا المشركين حيث وجدتموهم وخذوهم واحصروهم واقعدوا لهم كل مرصد فإن تابوا وأقاموا الصلوة وءاتوا الزكوة فخلوا سبيلهم إن الله غفور رحيم
Did the Prophet were able to Measure the Period in which Fighting was prohibited?
By the way, how many days did the prophet had to wait before fighting? Because according to Ayman theory, he would have had to not fight for 10 days per moon cycle (the period of the full moon per moon cycle)...in other words, he would have fought for 20 days, and stop fighting for 10 days per moon cycle...is this what he did, or did he wait for complete 4 moon cycles--about 118 days? :)
Quote from: theNabster on September 18, 2009, 10:55:43 PM
Do not laugh too soon, I was leading Professors and Phd students in a Western University, and even with them
they considered me too progressive for their comfort.
Are you sure that is what they thought of you (being progressive of their comfort), or your ego's imagination.
Until now, I don't consider you too progressive for my comfort, rather, an arrogant Imam who uses Non-well-established verses to cancel out the well-established ones. Hence, you are the same as the ones whom God described in 3-7 (the ones underlined):
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are well-established revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are not well-established.
As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is not-well-established from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say: �We believe in it, all is from our Lord.� And none will remember except the people of understanding.
3:7 هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتب منه ءايت محكمت هن أم الكتب وأخر متشبهت فأما الذين في قلوبهم زيغ فيتبعون ما تشبه منه ابتغاء الفتنة وابتغاء تأويله وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله والرسخون في العلم يقولون ءامنا به كل من عند ربنا وما يذكر إلا أولوا الألبب
:)
Quote from: belH on September 19, 2009, 12:29:44 AM
Peace all,
You are wrong about this. Here is one from the many examples of which the Prophet had fulfilled by measuring accurately the Month period:
Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
9:2 فسيحوا في الأرض أربعة أشهر واعلموا أنكم غير معجزي الله وأن الله مخزي الكفرين
So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the bond, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:5 فإذا انسلخ الأشهر الحرم فاقتلوا المشركين حيث وجدتموهم وخذوهم واحصروهم واقعدوا لهم كل مرصد فإن تابوا وأقاموا الصلوة وءاتوا الزكوة فخلوا سبيلهم إن الله غفور رحيم
Did the Prophet were able to Measure the Period in which Fighting was prohibited?
can't it be taken for a time period spreading over the appearance of 4 markers,(shahars)? You seem so sure about your statement regarding prophet as if you are carrying a video of his .
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 01:06:50 AM
can't it be taken for a time period spreading over the appearance of 4 markers,(shahars)? You seem so sure about your statement regarding prophet as if you are carrying a video of his .
Peace, so you are saying that he would have had to not fight for 10 days per moon cycle (the period of the full moon per moon cycle),...in other words, he would have fought for 20 days, and stopped fighting for 10 days per moon cycle (he had to stop the war four times that are equal to 20 days each)...is this what he did, or did he wait for complete 4 moon cycles--about 118 days?
Quote from: belH on September 19, 2009, 01:21:03 AM
Peace, so you are saying that he would have had to not fight for 10 days per moon cycle (the period of the full moon per moon cycle),...in other words, he would have fought for 20 days, and stopped fighting for 10 days per moon cycle (he had to stop the war four times that are equal to 20 days each)...is this what he did, or did he wait for complete 4 moon cycles--about 118 days?
When this command was downloaded to his heart , he stopped fighting and waited for the first full moon to appear and when it did , he counted it as number one ,waited for the next full moon, counted it as second , waited for the next full moon and counted it as third, and then the next. When he saw 4th full moon , restriction was over .
Shahar is only one , and it is a Marker, there is nothing like shahar spreading over 10 days time period.
When ever there is a command of a single shahar, that is to be followed by a time period, (like in 2-185 ambiguity was clarified in 2-184 as ayayam ul madoodaat) , but if it is more than one , then it is the time period starting from next first visible, to the 2nd /third/ or 4th.
siki
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 01:44:45 AM
When this command was downloaded to his heart , he stopped fighting and waited for the first full moon to appear and when it did , he counted it as number one ,waited for the next full moon, counted it as second , waited for the next full moon and counted it as third, and then the next. When he saw 4th full moon , restriction was over .
siki
Peace,
Therefore, it is not too hard to calculate four Moon Cycles (29 to 30 days per cycle)--Months, as you thought before.
Now, which Full moon was the marker for the day in which fighting were to begin, taking into consideration that the prophet did not have the technology we have today:
(http://www.stariel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/moon_phases1.jpg)
Or is it more easier to look for the new appearance of the moon-the Waxing Crescent?
Peace
If GOD wanted to make you do something for , let us say more than 30 50, or 90 days , It was difficult for the people back then to keep track of count, so he made it easier for them by counting a few full moons (two , three or 4 only)
Your pictures of full moon is a circular argument again, i have told you repeatedly , that , Shahar is, the first full moon which appears after the sun has set. so watch sun set, if there is a fullish moon ignore it, next day again watch sun set, if you see a full moon above horizon , again ignore it, do this exercise till the time you do not find a moon at sun set, now look for the moon rise, it will rise soon, This is Shahar.siki
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 01:44:45 AM
Shahar is only one , and it is a Marker, there is nothing like shahar spreading over 10 days time period.
When ever there is a command of a single shahar, that is to be followed by a time period, (like in 2-185 ambiguity was clarified in 2-184 as ayayam ul madoodaat) , but if it is more than one , then it is the time period starting from next first visible, to the 2nd /third/ or 4th.
siki[/color]
Now, I have one more question for you:
How many moon cycles the prophet was allowed to fight for before the next 4 restricted Moon Cycles start again, in which fight should stop?
is it 8 moon cycles period or 9?
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 01:44:45 AM
Shahar is only one , and it is a Marker, there is nothing like shahar spreading over 10 days time period.
When ever there is a command of a single shahar, that is to be followed by a time period, (like in 2-185 ambiguity was clarified in 2-184 as ayayam ul madoodaat) , but if it is more than one , then it is the time period starting from next first visible, to the 2nd /third/ or 4th.
siki[/color]
Are you proposing two different periods, 2 to 10 and 29 days' period, for the Shahar?
Do Ayman and the Imam agree with your proposal? Because it is a New proposal.
Quote from: belH on September 19, 2009, 02:24:30 AM
Now, I have one more question for you:
How many moon cycles the prophet was allowed to fight for before the next 4 restricted Moon Cycles start again, in which fight should stop?
is it 8 moon cycles period or 9?
I dont know, nor am interested to teach you the meaning of this commandment, i am merely applying the shahar as a marker to calculate the time period in this aya, and trying to tell you that what ever it is , taking shahar as full moon marker makes sense.
siki
Quote from: belH on September 19, 2009, 02:36:21 AM
Are you proposing two different periods, 2 to 10 and 29 days' period, for the Shahar?
Do Ayman and the Imam agree with your proposal? Because it is a New proposal.
::) So, this is what you understand out of my three line post ???
:o Any other forum member understanding so?
:confused: Belh, Bro, Please share it with me , I won't tell any one, OK. :( Are you mentally disabled , or something?
You know i was suspecting it for long, and i already told you so in one of my previous posts quoted below.
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 12:03:28 AM
there are only three possibilities, "you have a frozen brain", if not true , then an "idiotic attitude", and if both are not true, then i am afraid , as Nabeel said, "your mind is in complete grip of Satan", do something about it .
siki
Peace all,
I am choosing to stop interacting with belH as per Allah's commandment that if Allah's ayats are made a mockery of, I should not stay or communicate with such a person, belH falls into this category as he ridicules Allah's Signs.
Salam
Noble
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 08:59:44 PM
When it comes to "ramadhan", it is not my translation or understanding. All Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly say that it means "hot/scorching". If you disagree with the meaning of "ramadhan" and think that it can mean "cold" then you are imagining a false meaning. If you don't know the meaning then you are in no position to agree or disagree with anything. Just so that you don't say that I am building a strawman, please tell us what you think "ramadhan" means or admit that you don't know the meaning.
Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ra-Miim-Dal = to starve from cold, destroy, put in ashes, become dirty. ramad (pl. of armidatun) - ashes, fine and copious ashes
ramad n.m. pl. 14:18
مثل similar الذين those كفروا who disbelieve بربهم with their Lord اعمالهم their deeds كرماد as ashes...Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2:185
LL, V3, p: 322, 323
شهر Shahr/month/time (start-end)
رمضان Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558
the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 08:59:44 PM
So what is the purpose of saying "whoever witnessed the shahr amongst you"?
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
19:26 فقولي so say ان that نذرت I made a vow للرحمن to The Merciful صوما a fast...
فمن so who شهد witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare منكم from you الشهر the month فليصمه so he should fast it.Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 08:59:44 PM
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would save the Arabian Onyx or the buffalo according to your timing?
Certainly not by permitting global hunting for 8 months. The Arabian Onyx and all animals are saved by those who are constantly mindful of the reminder...
6:38 And not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor bird flies with its two wings, except nations امثالكم similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.
Quote from: ayman on September 16, 2009, 08:59:44 PM
Before I answer, who said it is from the day of proclamation in 9:3? The travel the land for four full-moons is already decreed before the proclamation in 9:3. The bigger "hajj" happened between the decree in 9:2 and the ending of the inviolable full-moons. So it must have happened on one of the inviolable full-moons.
Who said on one of the days of the full moon which occur after sunset?
Explain
one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
9:1-2 براءة Annulment من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الذين those عاهدتم you promised من from المشركين the takers of partners, فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin?Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 02:21:23 AM
If GOD wanted to make you do something for , let us say more than 30 50, or 90 days , It was difficult for the people back then to keep track of count, so he made it easier for them by counting a few full moons (two , three or 4 only)
Really, were they wired different and the minds of today smarter than the ancient philosophers, Pythagorean mathematicians, Sumerian stone movers/builders, and Mayan calendar makers?
Better tools make better tools and we have a bit more precision and understanding of physics today.
Quote from: siki on September 19, 2009, 02:21:23 AM
Your pictures of full moon is a circular argument again, i have told you repeatedly , that , Shahar is, the first full moon which appears after the sun has set. so watch sun set, if there is a fullish moon ignore it, next day again watch sun set, if you see a full moon above horizon , again ignore it, do this exercise till the time you do not find a moon at sun set, now look for the moon rise, it will rise soon, This is Shahar.[/color]
Then your marker varies and is sometimes
98% full as the case in November this year....
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 5:06 PM 4:43 PM
ignored Full at 2:14 PM
3-Nov-09 5:05 PM 5:25 PM shahr
Sun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:30 5.9 245.5 16:30 -3.1 62.1 1.00
16:40 4.1 247.1 16:40 -1.4 63.6 1.00
16:50 2.4 248.7 16:50 0.8 65.1 1.00
17:00 0.8 250.3 17:00 2.3 66.6 1.00
17:10 -1.5 251.9 17:10 4.0 68.0
1.00 ignored17:20 -3.4 253.4 17:20 5.7 69.4 1.00
17:30 -5.3 254.9 17:30 7.5 70.8 1.00
17:40 -7.1 256.4 17:40 9.2 72.2 1.00
17:50 -9.0 257.9 17:50 11.0 73.6 1.00
18:00 -11.0 259.5 18:00 12.9 75.0 1.00
3-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:30 5.7 245.2 16:30 -9.4 50.7 0.98
16:40 3.9 246.9 16:40 -7.9 52.4 0.98
16:50 2.2 248.5 16:50 -6.4 54.0 0.98
17:00 0.6 250.1 17:00 -4.8 55.6 0.98
17:10 -1.7 251.6 17:10 -3.3 57.1 0.98
17:20 -3.6 253.2 17:20 -1.7 58.6 0.98
17:30 -5.5 254.7 17:30 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
17:40 -7.3 256.2 17:40 1.9 61.6 0.98
17:50 -9.2 257.7 17:50 3.5 63.0 0.98
18:00 -11.1 259.2 18:00 5.1 64.4 0.98
Peace and kindest regards,
Eid
I guess we can stop the debate. Ramadan is over. Happy Breakfast Feast(as if they didn't feast every single day at sunset)
Cronies, good job shaking the faith of these Sunni drones in the traditional timing.
Next stop, Hajj.
:group:
Peace
I thought (Eid) that we talk of a different context when it is the same word...
but the word Ashes (ramadan) and Scorching Hot (ramadzan) are two distinct words, so how can you
use this as different context in the separate Ayats, the words are different, and have different meanings,
are you fooling around with God's meanings?
You, like belH are playing with Allah's Signs so beware...
As for your other grievances, Ayman's several patient posts answered them at length, if you cannot, or more appropriately do not want to be convinced, fine...
but to be honest, someone reading the beginning of your post will not give much weight to your rationality, and will not take you seriously...
Salam
Noble
Quote from: theNabster on September 20, 2009, 05:40:05 AM
Peace
I thought (Eid) that we talk of a different context when it is the same word...
but the word Ashes (ramadan) and Scorching Hot (ramadzan) are two distinct words, so how can you
use this as different context in the separate Ayats, the words are different, and have different meanings,
are you fooling around with God's meanings?
You, like belH are playing with Allah's Signs so beware...
As for your other grievances, Ayman's several patient posts answered them at length, if you cannot, or more appropriately do not want to be convinced, fine...
but to be honest, someone reading the beginning of your post will not give much weight to your rationality, and will not take you seriously...
Salam
Noble
Peace (Noble) the name not the attribute,
The first was an example, the rest facts which you don't address instead pad and pollute the thread with cheerleader rants as a few of the others popping out of the internet bushes adding zero value diverting the topic.
Fact: Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Fact: Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2:185
LL, V3, p: 322, 323
شهر Shahr/month/time (start-end)
رمضان Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558
the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
19:26 فقولي so say ان that نذرت I made a vow للرحمن to The Merciful صوما a fast...
فمن so who شهد witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare منكم from you الشهر the month فليصمه so he should fast it.Also addressed in another thread...
quote author=thegod link=topic=9597441.msg197964#msg197964 date=1240312339
Lisaan alarab is a thirteenth century work, & lane's lexicon is an nineteenth century work. In between the two u have taj alarus, which is an eighteenth century work.
quote author=thegod link=topic=9597441.msg198055#msg198055 date=1240372155
elke-a cycle / cercle per definition has no beginning and no end.
A cycle is a series of events that recur (in the same order).
The "new" moon is the marker because (it follows the "moonless" night, &) it is the beginning of a "new" cycle. The reason shahr has been applied to the new moon is that it announces (underived meaning of shahr) the moon after the moonless night. Because the new moon marks the beginning of a month, shahr also denotes the same.Explain
one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
9:1-2 براءة Annulment من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الذين those عاهدتم you promised من from المشركين the takers of partners, فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin?Fact: Then your marker varies and is sometimes
98% full as the case in November this year....
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 5:06 PM 4:43 PM
ignored Full at 2:14 PM
3-Nov-09 5:05 PM 5:25 PM shahr
Sun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:30 5.9 245.5 16:30 -3.1 62.1 1.00
16:40 4.1 247.1 16:40 -1.4 63.6 1.00
16:50 2.4 248.7 16:50 0.8 65.1 1.00
17:00 0.8 250.3 17:00 2.3 66.6 1.00
17:10 -1.5 251.9 17:10 4.0 68.0
1.00 ignored17:20 -3.4 253.4 17:20 5.7 69.4 1.00
17:30 -5.3 254.9 17:30 7.5 70.8 1.00
17:40 -7.1 256.4 17:40 9.2 72.2 1.00
17:50 -9.0 257.9 17:50 11.0 73.6 1.00
18:00 -11.0 259.5 18:00 12.9 75.0 1.00
3-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:30 5.7 245.2 16:30 -9.4 50.7 0.98
16:40 3.9 246.9 16:40 -7.9 52.4 0.98
16:50 2.2 248.5 16:50 -6.4 54.0 0.98
17:00 0.6 250.1 17:00 -4.8 55.6 0.98
17:10 -1.7 251.6 17:10 -3.3 57.1 0.98
17:20 -3.6 253.2 17:20 -1.7 58.6 0.98
17:30 -5.5 254.7 17:30 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
17:40 -7.3 256.2 17:40 1.9 61.6 0.98
17:50 -9.2 257.7 17:50 3.5 63.0 0.98
18:00 -11.1 259.2 18:00 5.1 64.4 0.98
If you want to continue the discussion and add value then answer if the above are TRUE or not.
Regards,
Eid
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMNot about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ra-Miim-Dal = to starve from cold, destroy, put in ashes, become dirty. ramad (pl. of armidatun) - ashes, fine and copious ashes
ramad n.m. pl. 14:18
مثل similar الذين those كفروا who disbelieve بربهم with their Lord اعمالهم their deeds كرماد as ashes...
Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
The words رمد and رمض are two completely different words in Arabic with different spelling. What you are saying is like confusing ?mat? (a rug) and ?mad? (crazy) in English. Your time would be better spent in learning Arabic than in defending the nonsensical and arbitrary sectarian calendar.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMRa-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2:185
LL, V3, p: 322, 323
شهر Shahr/month/time (start-end) رمضان Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
It only became ?the month of fast? after 2:185 was revealed. So you are using circular reasoning. An Arab hearing 2:185 for the first time and trying to understand when this ?month? occurs wouldn?t use circular reasoning (CIRCULAR: to fast during the month of fast). This is a post-Quranic meaning that doesn?t say anything about when to fast. Even using your own definition of "shahr" as "month", the pre-Quranic Arab listening for the first time to 2:185 without any post-Quranic bias would understand it as a "month" of scorching heat.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMSo they make an inward intent called shahida...
19:26 فقولي so say ان that نذرت I made a vow للرحمن to The Merciful صوما a fast...
فمن so who شهد witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare منكم from you الشهر the month فليصمه so he should fast it.
Actually, the examples that you brought destroy your argument that ?inward intent? means ?shahida? since 19:26 clearly says that such intent is called ?نذرت I made a vow ?. Also, according to you ?whoever didn?t make a vow? is not obligated to fast. So according to your logic, even fully able people in good health are exempted if they ?don?t make a vow?.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMCertainly not by permitting global hunting for 8 months. The Arabian Onyx and all animals are saved by those who are constantly mindful of the reminder...
6:38 And not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor bird flies with its two wings, except nations امثالكم similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.
This doesn?t answer the question. Any hunting for sport would fall under spilling blood unnecessarily and is therefore prohibited anyway. Also, hunting endangered species would fall under corrupting the earth and therefore is also prohibited. What we are talking about is hunting for food and restricting it so that those species don?t become endangered. So the question is:
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMWho said on one of the days of the full moon which occur after sunset?
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
9:1-2 براءة Annulment من from الله Godورسوله and His messenger الي to الذين those عاهدتم you promised من from المشركين the takers of partners, فسيحوا so travel في in الارض the earth اربعة four اشهر ashhurin?
The god said so. He said that the ?hajj? occurs on ?ash-hur ma'aloomat?. So the ?hajj? occurs on known full-moons. The harvest full-moons are known to everyone and the people of the book had ?hagg? on the inviolable full-moon (Hagg Sukkot). On the other hand, there is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on). Moreover, 9:3 makes it clear that the restriction period is consecutive but according to your arbitrary false calendar they are not consecutive but are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7.
Travel in the land for four full-moons is the same if I tell you that I will see you after four full-moons. Nothing ambiguous about it.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMReally, were they wired different and the minds of today smarter than the ancient philosophers, Pythagorean mathematicians, Sumerian stone movers/builders, and Mayan calendar makers?
Better tools make better tools and we have a bit more precision and understanding of physics today.
Yet despite all the tools there are still disputes every year about when your so-called Ramadhan month occurs (including this year) but there was never any dispute about when the full-moon occurs.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMThen your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
No it doesn?t. You are saying this because you are used to disputes every year about the start of Ramadhan. Please provide any link or reference showing that there was ever any dispute about when the full-moon occurs. If you can?t provide such reference then you have proved that just because you ignore when it occurs, it doesn?t mean that everyone does.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 20, 2009, 12:23:19 AMhttp://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 5:06 PM 4:43 PM ignored Full at 2:14 PM
3-Nov-09 5:05 PM 5:25 PM shahr
Sun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:30 5.9 245.5 16:30 -3.1 62.1 1.00
16:40 4.1 247.1 16:40 -1.4 63.6 1.00
16:50 2.4 248.7 16:50 0.8 65.1 1.00
17:00 0.8 250.3 17:00 2.3 66.6 1.00
17:10 -1.5 251.9 17:10 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
17:20 -3.4 253.4 17:20 5.7 69.4 1.00
17:30 -5.3 254.9 17:30 7.5 70.8 1.00
17:40 -7.1 256.4 17:40 9.2 72.2 1.00
17:50 -9.0 257.9 17:50 11.0 73.6 1.00
18:00 -11.0 259.5 18:00 12.9 75.0 1.00
3-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:30 5.7 245.2 16:30 -9.4 50.7 0.98
16:40 3.9 246.9 16:40 -7.9 52.4 0.98
16:50 2.2 248.5 16:50 -6.4 54.0 0.98
17:00 0.6 250.1 17:00 -4.8 55.6 0.98
17:10 -1.7 251.6 17:10 -3.3 57.1 0.98
17:20 -3.6 253.2 17:20 -1.7 58.6 0.98
17:30 -5.5 254.7 17:30 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
17:40 -7.3 256.2 17:40 1.9 61.6 0.98
17:50 -9.2 257.7 17:50 3.5 63.0 0.98
18:00 -11.1 259.2 18:00 5.1 64.4 0.98
You are forgetting practical reality. The fact is that the full-moon on November 2 is the full-moon. Sunset starts from the time the sun starts to go through the horizon (the sun is about .5 degrees wide, and so is the moon). So here is the data for November 2 and 3:
November 2
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
17:01 0.6 250.5
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:48 0.5 64.8 1
November 3
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
17:01 0.4 250.2
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
17:31 0.6 60.3 0.98
As you can see, the moon on November 3 occurs 30 minutes after sunset (will appear to an earth bound observer even later). On the other hand, the full-moon on November 2 occurs only 13 minutes before sunset. More practically speaking though, unless you are in the middle of the sea, the full moon doesn?t actually appear to earth bound observers until it has risen about 2 degrees so it will be apparent at the same time as the sunset. There is no ambiguity that this is the full moon and any doubt will be cleared once one sees that the next day moon appears more than 30 minutes after sunset.
Again there was never any doubt about when the full-moon occurs, on the other hand there is doubt EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when the new moon crescent of the sectarian Ramadhan appears. This is indisputable, but you are clearly biased. So the way for you to prove your point is to bring an independent source showing that there is or ever was a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, there is a dispute EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when your so-called Ramadhan occurs. Here is the data for this year showing a variation of THREE days even within the same country or countries right next to each other:
Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August: Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).
Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August: Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.
Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August:India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)
The above is on top of the fact that your so-called Ramadhan is 100% arbitrary to begin with since it is dependent on when month 1 was made to start, the arbitrary order of the months and the arbitrary start of the era. Those are indisputably THREE 100% arbitrary and manmade factors.
Instead of wasting your time trying to jealously prove that like the empirically verifiable 3 day dispute in your so-called Ramadhan there is dispute on when the full-moon occurs, I would suggest that you try to help Belal answer the following question. You guys are going to need all the help you can get. Bring a Billion sectarian supporting one another if you want but still you will never be able to do it. :)
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap. Peace,
Ayman
Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex (?)
theNabster, and by the grace of Allah, strives to be on the side of Allah, who is the Truth,
and not His Creation who are history or well below his Splendor, be they Messengers, Prophets, Angels,
Humans or Jinns.
Allah has given me great gifts, and I use them to understand as best as He wishes me to His Creation, and
His Quran.
If that includes your misnomer "cheer-leading" of an approach that is closer to what Allah wants in terms
of how we should perform the fast, so will it be, but your derogatory remark says more about you than it says about me...
Allah in His Mercy will, I pray, accept and reward us for all the fasts that we have made so far, but if we are made aware
that we are exaggerating in our Deen, and this is not how Allah wants us to conduct our affairs, then, there will be no excuse after that.
Because there are good convincing arguments of exaggerations put forward, and Ahl al Sunnah, Ahl al Shiaa, and other Sects/Cults are not taking heed, so soon, Allah might send mighty painful warnings, and I do not wish to be on the side of those on whom Allah's wrath will fall...
At the end of the day, each of us is on his/her own...
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 18, 2009, 01:51:53 PM
The answer shouts in your face.
After a first few observations, take the first day that came, and each year adjust...
This is not the recipe for an accurate timing system. Ayman?s criterion is length of longest day?.. Thus any of equal longest days meets the criteria. This system will cause more disputes and fighting than the system Ayman is trying to replace.
Quote from: theNabster on September 18, 2009, 01:51:53 PM
Do nor overestimate those guys from the past. They were very good at figuring out patterns, what they lacked in technology, they made up with acumen and craftsmanship...
I see, you are accepting and giving credit to some people of the past (non believer) and not other (believers). Your logic is contradictory, so is your thought process. You favor non believer over the believer.
Peace guest
your mind is pretty much made up that anyone who does not agree with you is deceitful.
so i am tired arguing with you.
let us call it quits, and let Allah decides. He is the one who eventually will impose His Will
no matter what you, me, or Ayman and the rest of the Humans and Jinns put forward.
Good bye and have a nice life
Salam
Noble
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
If Guest and you are really sincere and think that you are not stupid and are not misguided followers of satan, then instead of continuously spewing nonsense on this thread and being obsessed with me and what I think,
No one is obsessed with you. We are just responding to your illogical and irrational postulate. Perhaps you forgot that you authored the nonsense article at the begging of this thread. Your satanic pride and ego fooled you again; no one is obsessed with you.
Quote from: ayman on September 18, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
just forget about me and explain to everyone the following:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Looks like you have abandoned your own theory and off to a new topic. Now that you cannot defend you work anymore you want to change the subject. Why are you running like zebras?
Here is a rebuttal of your saying:
?
purely on the god's words from the great reading?
The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran. Unlike you the believer will not mislead the mankind.
9:122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.
Below is another example that justifies acceptance of knowledge from others believers. As you see some are more knowledgeable than other. You are not among the knowledgeable because you are a dishonest person.
27:15 - We endowed David and Solomon with knowledge, and they said, "Praise GOD for blessing us more than many of His believing servants."
Finally, the word of the day for you (Ayman).
98:1 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, as well as the idol worshipers, insist on their ways, despite the proof given to them.
98:6 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.
Peace guest,
this is exactly what I meant by my last post, anyone who disagrees with you is now a kafeer too, are you sure you are not an ultra salafist by any chance?
the history of islam is filled with bad fatwas by scholars who created mayhem in the ranks of believers.
-who let Ali be assassinated like a dog at Kufa?
-was Hussein killed by muslims yes or no?
-was Hassan poisoned by order of a muslim yes or no?
-who sided with the crusaders on the 9th century and gave Jerusalem to them, a muslim faction yes or no?
-how about the excesses of baghdad, and the painful retribution of the mongol invasion with all books and knowledge
destroyed, and scholars killed with their skulls made into pyramids by playful mongonl soldiers - why this ignominous end,
where there not muslims among them, yes or no?
-who is to blame for the debacle of the Moors (Muslims) in Spain, where they divided into little fiefdoms, fighting one another, in contradiction
with the Quranic injunction that they should not divide into sects? and got seduced with women and pleasures?
-and closer to home, who again handed Jerusalem again to the British Empire, and help to finalise the fall of the Muslim Ottoman Empire (were they not the Wahabbis whom you now take as patrons, beside Allah?).
Now let us go back in History and even if it is not fully forensically authenticated, how about when Mohamed was very sick and close to death, his companions were discussing near his room the person who will replace him, and Umar put himself forward despite the majority choosing Abu Bakr, despite the pain, the Prophet came out of the room crawling, and looked very angry, showing his discontent, the Companions looked at it as a Sign that Abu Bakr, who was reported to be humble, should it be...
Does this strike as infallible humans?, just because they are believers?
You look at the Believers of old, and give them God like attributes of infallibility, beware, this is shirk, only Allah is infallible.
And being a Believer is not a permanent state, it has its ups and downs as well.
What you refer to as study the Deen in The Quran, is improve in knowledge in comprehension of what was given you, so you can apply it better... Life and its multiple challenges is dynamic, you want to make it static, and live like a zombie, no wonder, most of the wahabbis/ sunnis / shias / etc will only ever have one motto, destroy what you cannot understand.
and you seem to be clearly one of them, living in the shadows of the mistakes of those before you...
And by the way, if there was only one single true real believer on this Planet Earth, Allah will have some pity on us... as it is we will keep on suffering as the people of Moses, before Moses, slaves that we are...
Salam nabster,
Quote-was Hussein killed by muslims yes or no?
-was Hassan poisoned by order of a muslim yes or no?
-who sided with the crusaders on the 9th century and gave Jerusalem to them, a muslim faction yes or no?
the answer to all the above is a categoric
no since a Muslim by definition is a person who submits to the laws of God (hence, someone who does not submit is not a "muslim" at that moment and is no longer under God's divine protection).
QuoteNow let us go back in History and even if it is not fully forensically authenticated, how about when Mohamed was very sick and close to death, his companions were discussing near his room the person who will replace him, and Umar put himself forward despite the majority choosing Abu Bakr, despite the pain, the Prophet came out of the room crawling, and looked very angry, showing his discontent, the Companions looked at it as a Sign that Abu Bakr, who was reported to be humble, should it be...
Does this strike as infallible humans?, just because they are believers?
What nonsence! the prophet and those who follow him would uphold the laws of governance as outlined in the Quran (leadership by consultaion and debate - never by sucession). the story is clearly fabricated.
Salam Layth,
Indeed it might be, or it might be not, because consultation includes disapproval of the Leader, and according to Aisha (who purportedly related the story), most of the companions and the Prophet wanted Abu Bakr, but a small group and Umar who are very influential pushed Umar forward, who was well known to get things done (I have nothing against Umar, I have never known the guy, apart from through Seera and Hadith stories, and we know how unreliable these could be).
So it could have been a matter of correcting his aspirations by the Prophet to Umar, do not forget people do get carried away, and a Believer can be misled to be thinking he is the best for the job, and tries to win the majority towards him, well if this account is true, the Prophet seems to have put a brake on that...
But as all these accounts, we will never know exactly, all these people died, and the only account we can accept as hopeful Believers, are what was recorded in the Quran...
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
this is exactly what I meant by my last post, anyone who disagrees with you is now a kafeer too, are you sure you are not an ultra salafist by any chance?
It?s not my way. It is God?s way or the highway.
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
the history of islam is filled with bad fatwas by scholars who created mayhem in the ranks of believers.
You didn?t get the most important part of my message. I will highlight the part for you. The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar
provided it is in line with the Quran.
The God has warned us about the satan and his tricks. Therefore, all the killing and conspiracy you mentioned is no news to me. Ayman is spreading lies about God and we have to be aware of it. You are a liar making up things about good people. Produce your evidence. I have to be aware of bad (satan) people like yourself. I seek the God?s help. He will guide me.
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
with the Quranic injunction that they should not divide into sects? and got seduced with women and pleasures?
You make a good example of being seduced by Ayman.
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
-and closer to home, who again handed Jerusalem again to the British Empire, and help to finalise the fall of the Muslim Ottoman Empire (were they not the Wahabbis whom you now take as patrons, beside Allah?).
You look at the Believers of old, and give them God like attributes of infallibility, beware, this is shirk, only Allah is infallible.
I don?t give anybody God like attributes. It is you giving Ayman the God like attributes. And please stop associating bad attributes to the believers.
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
Life and its multiple challenges is dynamic, you want to make it static, and live like a zombie, no wonder, most of the wahabbis/ sunnis / shias / etc will only ever have one motto, destroy what you cannot understand.
and you seem to be clearly one of them, living in the shadows of the mistakes of those before you...
And you are the judge, jury, and the executioner. You know it all. And you are talking about infallibility. Shame on you.
Peace guest
you are really a dangerous feral child. I hope they do not allow people to carry guns in your country, you will probably kill me...
what a lost soul you are, hiding behind a pretense of belief...
are you that blind to what surrounds you? Can't you see that Allah has forsaken the "Ummah" you fantasise about?
It does not exist... a mirage...
who cares about you or Ayman, or me?
I personally long to die every single day because I feel so uncomfortable seeing what's going on around me...
My being here in this thread is for closure, I do not care what you think, I am convinced now, from next year, I will be fasting
10 days at Ramadan Badr after the Summer Solstice, until Allah shows me a Sign otherwise.
There is a nice saying in Arabic, do not be too rigid, or you will break, and do not be too soft, or you will get squeezed, clearly
you are a very hard and rigid individual, and sincerely, I feel myself, by the grace of Allah, a better Muslim than you are, why because watching my brothers and sisters jumping through a cliff pains me, whereas you seem you want to push them even further.
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 02:24:31 PM
you are really a dangerous feral child. I hope they do not allow people to carry guns in your country, you will probably kill me...
what a lost soul you are, hiding behind a pretense of belief...
You need psychiatric help. Apparently, God?s word is not enough for you. How sad.
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 02:24:31 PM
There is a nice saying in Arabic, do not be too rigid, or you will break, and do not be too soft, or you will get squeezed, clearly
you are a very hard and rigid individual, and sincerely, I feel myself, by the grace of Allah, a better Muslim than you are,
You are a compromiser like the satanic people who tried to compromise with Prophet Muhammad.
Peace guest
It is you who God's words is not enough for you that you need a calendar set up by Umar in the 7th century, and countless decisions made by Imam Shafie and Bukhari and others to feel your Deen complete.
Stop this charade about compromise, I am not about playing scrabble with you...
My purpose is not to please the likes of you, oki...
What you would have loved is that I would have bent to you and asked show me this or show me that.
Allah has freed Man from the Slavery of Man to the Service to Him, it is up to Man to take the challenge.
What you are saying is that I am a Slave to Man, well, first of, I am not a slave to Ayman, and certainly not to you, and not to anyone by the grace of my Maker, other than my Maker, so go and chant your pitiful preachy serenades to whoever is idle enough to listen to them...
Bye...
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 03:31:33 PM
What you would have loved is that I would have bent to you and asked show me this or show me that.
You don't know much about the Quran, do you. God is the one who guides. Not me, not you, not Prophet Muhammad. Get it. The God told Prophet Muhammad that you can ask forgiveness for others seventy times, I will not forgive them. If you knew this then you wouldn't have made the comment, you did.
Quote from: theNabster on September 21, 2009, 03:31:33 PM
What you are saying is that I am a Slave to Man, well, first of, I am not a slave to Ayman, and certainly not to you, and not to anyone by the grace of my Maker, other than my Maker, so go and chant your pitiful preachy serenades to whoever is idle enough to listen to them...
You are making all these false accusation without any proof. You are the one following Ayman's false doctrine and now you are blaming me for it. What a illogical mind.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 21, 2009, 11:32:50 AMNo one is obsessed with you. We are just responding to your illogical and irrational postulate. Perhaps you forgot that you authored the nonsense article at the begging of this thread. Your satanic pride and ego fooled you again; no one is obsessed with you.
It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself.
Quote from: guest on September 21, 2009, 11:32:50 AMLooks like you have abandoned your own theory and off to a new topic. Now that you cannot defend you work anymore you want to change the subject. Why are you running like zebras?
Here is a rebuttal of your saying:
?purely on the god's words from the great reading?
The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran. Unlike you the believer will not mislead the mankind.
You mean the same scholars that told you:
1. Dip flies in your food because one of its wings is medicine.
2. Drink warm fresh camel urine to cure all your ills.
3. Kiss the behind of a Black Stone to get all your sins forgiven.
Sorry I forgot about those..ahem...scholars. I guess you win and you don't have to prove your arbitrary timing based purely on the god's words from the great reading since you got the "scholars". :)
Quote from: guest on September 21, 2009, 11:32:50 AM9:122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.
You are right when the believers returned they were eager to learn about kissing the Black Stone and dipping flies in their food and drink and about arbitrary months such as Dhu Al-Qi'ada and all sorts of important things left untold by the great reading but revealed to scholars. Why didn't I think of that? :)
Quote from: guest on September 21, 2009, 11:32:50 AMBelow is another example that justifies acceptance of knowledge from others believers. As you see some are more knowledgeable than other. You are not among the knowledgeable because you are a dishonest person.
27:15 - We endowed David and Solomon with knowledge, and they said, "Praise GOD for blessing us more than many of His believing servants."
David and Solomon didn't know anything about kissing a black stone or dipping flies in their food. So I guess your scholars are much more knowledgeable than David and Solomon. :)
Quote from: guest on September 21, 2009, 11:32:50 AMFinally, the word of the day for you (Ayman).
98:1 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, as well as the idol worshipers, insist on their ways, despite the proof given to them.
98:6 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.
The idol worshippers are those who refuse to kiss a black stone or revere and mindlessly spin around a black cube and they don't believe in dipping flies in their food or drinking camel urine to cure all ills and they don't follow an arbitrary manmade timing system but instead follow the timing based purely on the great reading. On the other hand, the believers are those who love to kiss, fondle and mindlessly spin around a bunch of filthy stones and follow the Hadiths of the scholars and their 100% arbitrary manmade timing system. I guess I was wrong because I thought it was the other way around :).
May the god give you and your scholars what you deserve on the day of the account.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Layth,
Quote from: Layth on September 21, 2009, 01:16:38 PMthe answer to all the above is a categoric no since a Muslim by definition is a person who submits to the laws of God (hence, someone who does not submit is not a "muslim" at that moment and is no longer under God's divine protection).
Anyone can call himself a Muslim (capital M). It is even written on people's ID card and birth certificate in the Middle East. People who have fought one another over power during the first civil war were not "muslimeen" even if they called themselves Muslim (capital M).
Quote from: Layth on September 21, 2009, 01:16:38 PMWhat nonsence! the prophet and those who follow him would uphold the laws of governance as outlined in the Quran (leadership by consultaion and debate - never by sucession). the story is clearly fabricated.
Which part is fabricated? Is it the part that the leaders at that time were "followers of the prophet" or the part that they fought each other? We know that the first Islamic civil war and the ensuing Shiite movement happened. So objectively and without emotional attachment to those guys, the part that is most likely fabricated must be the first one.
Peace,
Ayman
guest,
Brother salam.
All these years of mine that I have stayed in this forum , I am yet to come across a person, who's mind is so much deprived of logic such as yours, and on top of it you label everyone as satan, who tries to question any of the twisted practices we have inherited. With such a clogged and shackled brain, I am a little surprised to find you as member of FREE_MINDS.
I sincerely pray that GOD heals your sick brain, but at your end, you need to atleast recognise the problem and initiate some effort, what ever little it may be.
peace
siki
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
The words رمد and رمض are two completely different words in Arabic with different spelling. What you are saying is like confusing ?mat? (a rug) and ?mad? (crazy) in English. Your time would be better spent in learning Arabic than in defending the nonsensical and arbitrary sectarian calendar.
That was an example, could?ve used any number of words including الرُّومُ The Romans which according to your Lisaan alarab 13th & lane's lexicon 19th century holy books can be confused with desired, to seek, to wait/pause/expect, be patient, to mock/ridicule, and I wrote?
?Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.?
Similarly if we ask what is ?July? people say a month, little to do with Julius Caesar from which it derives.
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
It only became ?the month of fast? after 2:185 was revealed. So you are using circular reasoning. An Arab hearing 2:185 for the first time and trying to understand when this ?month? occurs wouldn?t use circular reasoning (CIRCULAR: to fast during the month of fast). This is a post-Quranic meaning that doesn?t say anything about when to fast. Even using your own definition of "shahr" as "month", the pre-Quranic Arab listening for the first time to 2:185 without any post-Quranic bias would understand it as a "month" of scorching heat.
Circular is to imply: falyasumhu so he should fast the fasting when it refers to the month.
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
Actually, the examples that you brought destroy your argument that ?inward intent? means ?shahida? since 19:26 clearly says that such intent is called ?نذرت I made a vow ?. Also, according to you ?whoever didn?t make a vow? is not obligated to fast. So according to your logic, even fully able people in good health are exempted if they ?don?t make a vow?.
No straw-man, you?re habitual at projecting your opinions into the posts of others. Nothing about who do not make a vow/intent not obligated, it simply says what it says.
19:26 فقولي so say ان that نذرت I made a vow للرحمن to The Merciful صوما a fast...
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
This doesn?t answer the question. Any hunting for sport would fall under spilling blood unnecessarily and is therefore prohibited anyway. Also, hunting endangered species would fall under corrupting the earth and therefore is also prohibited. What we are talking about is hunting for food and restricting it so that those species don?t become endangered. So the question is:
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?
So now you?re restriction is better as if a contest of sorts.
Already posted not about global hunting; simply a local restriction during the gathering like a lollapalooza concert with no street vendors so be prepared same as you would not go empty to your hajj feast?
(http://www.noeviltwin.com/images/LollaCrowd_small.jpg)
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
The god said so. He said that the ?hajj? occurs on ?ash-hur ma'aloomat?. So the ?hajj? occurs on known full-moons. The harvest full-moons are known to everyone and the people of the book had ?hagg? on the inviolable full-moon (Hagg Sukkot). On the other hand, there is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on). Moreover, 9:3 makes it clear that the restriction period is consecutive but according to your arbitrary false calendar they are not consecutive but are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7.
Again straw-man thread is about timing which all evidence, logic and common sense (e.g. the blind and people in cloudy weather get free pass) points to contradiction.
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
Travel in the land for four full-moons is the same if I tell you that I will see you after four full-moons. Nothing ambiguous about it.
Not if your vision is poor or if it?s cloudy outside you won?t.
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
Yet despite all the tools there are still disputes every year about when your so-called Ramadhan month occurs (including this year) but there was never any dispute about when the full-moon occurs.
No it doesn?t. You are saying this because you are used to disputes every year about the start of Ramadhan. Please provide any link or reference showing that there was ever any dispute about when the full-moon occurs. If you can?t provide such reference then you have proved that just because you ignore when it occurs, it doesn?t mean that everyone does.
No disputes straw man; the new crescents are precisely calculated forward/backwards. I know exactly when to fast.
Quote from: ayman on September 20, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
You are forgetting practical reality. The fact is that the full-moon on November 2 is the full-moon. Sunset starts from the time the sun starts to go through the horizon (the sun is about .5 degrees wide, and so is the moon). So here is the data for November 2 and 3:
November 2
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
17:01 0.6 250.5
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
16:48 0.5 64.8 1
November 3
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
17:01 0.4 250.2
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
17:31 0.6 60.3 0.98
As you can see, the moon on November 3 occurs 30 minutes after sunset (will appear to an earth bound observer even later). On the other hand, the full-moon on November 2 occurs only 13 minutes before sunset. More practically speaking though, unless you are in the middle of the sea, the full moon doesn?t actually appear to earth bound observers until it has risen about 2 degrees so it will be apparent at the same time as the sunset. There is no ambiguity that this is the full moon and any doubt will be cleared once one sees that the next day moon appears more than 30 minutes after sunset.
Again there was never any doubt about when the full-moon occurs, on the other hand there is doubt EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when the new moon crescent of the sectarian Ramadhan appears. This is indisputable, but you are clearly biased. So the way for you to prove your point is to bring an independent source showing that there is or ever was a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, there is a dispute EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when your so-called Ramadhan occurs. Here is the data for this year showing a variation of THREE days even within the same country or countries right next to each other:
Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August:
Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).
Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August:
Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.
Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August:
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)
The above is on top of the fact that your so-called Ramadhan is 100% arbitrary to begin with since it is dependent on when month 1 was made to start, the arbitrary order of the months and the arbitrary start of the era. Those are indisputably THREE 100% arbitrary and manmade factors.
Instead of wasting your time trying to jealously prove that like the empirically verifiable 3 day dispute in your so-called Ramadhan there is dispute on when the full-moon occurs, I would suggest that you try to help Belal answer the following question. You guys are going to need all the help you can get. Bring a Billion sectarian supporting one another if you want but still you will never be able to do it. :)
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Again straw man the moon was clearly in the sky at sunset.
Astronomical Applications Dept.
U.S. Naval Observatory
Washington, DC 20392-5420
WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
o , o ,
W 77 02, N38 53
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Nov 2, 2009
Eastern Standard Time
Altitude Azimuth Fraction
(E of N) Illuminated
17:00 2.3 66.6 1.00
17:01 2.5 66.7 1.00
17:02 2.7 66.9 1.00
17:03 2.8 67.0 1.00
17:04 3.0 67.1 1.00
17:05 3.1 67.3 1.00
17:06 3.3 67.4 1.00
17:07 3.5 67.6 1.00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
Nov 2, 2009
Eastern Standard Time
Altitude Azimuth
(E of N)
17:00 0.8 250.3
17:01 0.6 250.5
17:02 0.4 250.6
17:03 0.3 250.8
17:04 0.1 250.9
17:05 -0.0 251.1
17:06 -0.8 251.2
17:07 -1.0 251.4
One does not have to be in the middle of the ocean and reminds me of a d?j? vu dream, a family on a beach all dressed up taking pictures and this guy exercising with his dog which he grabbed and flung the dog in the ocean water. Then a few weeks later was watching the sunset on the Pacific and a family from California lined up on the beach to take a picture all dressed up before dinner and this guy was running up-down the shore and doing laps swimming exercising with his dog when all of sudden he grabbed and flung the dog in the water too for a swim which triggered the remembrance.
(http://www.8thelementdiving.com/images/puerto_vallarta_sunset.jpg)
Peace
Peace Eid,
You just wasted one more electronic page and achieved nothing contributing to more global warming lol :rotfl:
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2009, 05:46:48 PM
You mean the same scholars that told you:
1. Dip flies in your food because one of its wings is medicine.
2. Drink warm fresh camel urine to cure all your ills.
3. Kiss the behind of a Black Stone to get all your sins forgiven.
No, I meant scholar like Prophet Muhammad, David, Solomon, Noah, Abraham, Mosses and other believers. According to your logic these people are disbeliever/misleader and should not be trusted. Your pride and ego got the best of you. That's why you are equating flies and urine cure as the sayings of scholars. You are fully aware of trickery satan plays with human, they have the power to whisper into our innermost thought, but we are given the power to shun them. But you voluntarily gave that power up to become one of them.
Simply put, Ayman?s message is: when you hear a call like Noah made in 7:59 Ayman?s response is 11:32. Ayman dislike people who listened/followed Noah. This is the fundamental message he is propagating. Please be aware of him.
7:59 - We sent Noah to his people, saying, "O my people, worship GOD; you have no other god beside Him. I fear for you the retribution of an awesome day."
11:32 - They said, "O Noah, you have argued with us, and kept on arguing. We challenge you to bring the doom you threaten us with, if you are truthful."
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2009, 05:46:48 PM
You are right when the believers returned they were eager to learn about kissing the Black Stone and dipping flies in their food and drink and about arbitrary months such as Dhu Al-Qi'ada and all sorts of important things left untold by the great reading but revealed to scholars. Why didn't I think of that? :)
Now, you are mocking God?s word and accusing believers of teaching false things. Ayman, this is your trait. You are confusing yourself with the believers. By definition a believer cannot do bad things as suggested by Ayman. He is totally lost and shame on him for making such a wrongful statement about a believer. His payment is on the way:
4:145 - The hypocrites will be committed to the lowest pit of Hell, and you will find no one to help them.
9:67 - The hypocrite men and the hypocrite women belong with each other - they advocate evil and prohibit righteousness, and they are stingy. They forgot GOD, so He forgot them. The hypocrites are truly wicked
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2009, 05:46:48 PM
David and Solomon didn't know anything about kissing a black stone or dipping flies in their food. So I guess your scholars are much more knowledgeable than David and Solomon. :)
Ayman keeps talking about the black stone and the dipping flies because he is obsessed with it. He keeps reading this kind of things to increase his knowledge. That?s why you will find a great correlation between this nonsense and his so called Ramadan theory.
Quote from: ayman on September 21, 2009, 05:46:48 PM
The idol worshippers are those who refuse to kiss a black stone or revere and mindlessly spin around a black cube and they don't believe in dipping flies in their food or drinking camel urine to cure all ills and they don't follow an arbitrary manmade timing system but instead follow the timing based purely on the great reading. On the other hand, the believers are those who love to kiss, fondle and mindlessly spin around a bunch of filthy stones and follow the Hadiths of the scholars and their 100% arbitrary manmade timing system. I guess I was wrong because I thought it was the other way around :).
Again, you are obsessed with kissing black stone, drinking camel urine, and hadiths. You and your followers are the only ones who keep talking about this nonsense. Therefore, these sources must be very near and dear to you. You cannot part from it.
Peace siki,
Quote from: siki on September 22, 2009, 01:15:47 AM
deprived of logic such as yours, and on top of it you label everyone as satan, who tries to question any of the twisted practices we have inherited.
Please read your own posts carefully and you will know what deprived logic means.
I did not label everyone as satan. You just proved yourself that you are deprived of logic.
I have no issue with questioning twisted practices. I myself am questioning double twisted practice advocated on this forum. And you disapproved of it. Again an illogical thought process.
Quote from: siki on September 22, 2009, 01:15:47 AM
With such a clogged and shackled brain, I am a little surprised to find you as member of FREE_MINDS.
Truth is very hard to swallow as evident from people of Noah, Prophet Lot, Ad, Jesus and others. Your reaction is normal and anticipated. Generally people are not interested in finding the truth; they are interested in their ego, pride and worldly gains.
Quote from: siki on September 22, 2009, 01:15:47 AM
I sincerely pray that GOD heals your sick brain,
Please pray for yourself, you really need it. I don?t need you prayer. But thanks for the offer.
Peace guest,
I think dissing you hard got over the top somehow, but do you still need to be this paranoid?
It is really annoying, I cannot have a conversation with someone who brandishes satanic and hypocrite and hell fire
every other sentence, are you also obsessed with these things, you are scared they might be in you too?
This ping pong of accusations will never end.
Listen the scholars I meant were not Messengers or Prophets oki?
But if you look at the Book, even Prophets go through learning curves, learn from mistakes, and do reprehensible things,
Allah bothers to quote these examples so that we see that they are humans, and that there is nothing inherently wrong in making a mistake, what is wrong is thinking we will never make mistakes, never learning from mistakes, not repenting from mistakes, and not repairing mistakes.
You do not seem to be in this forum to learn anything, you just come to accuse, and attack, I am sorry but this is not an attitude I can sympathise with...
You seem to want to be better than a Prophet...
Quote from: theNabster on September 22, 2009, 03:54:53 AM
Peace Eid,
You just wasted one more electronic page and achieved nothing contributing to more global warming lol :rotfl:
Peace theNabster,
Instead of grinning like لجهلين (the ignorant) قردة خسءين (apes despised) gather yourself and simply go outside Nov 2nd 41 days from today watch the 100% full moon
before sunset.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AM
Astronomical Applications Dept.
U.S. Naval Observatory
Washington, DC 20392-5420
WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
o , o ,
W 77 02, N38 53
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Nov 2, 2009
Eastern Standard Time
Altitude Azimuth Fraction
(E of N) Illuminated
17:00 2.3 66.6 1.00
17:01 2.5 66.7 1.00
17:02 2.7 66.9 1.00
17:03 2.8 67.0 1.00
17:04 3.0 67.1 1.00
17:05 3.1 67.3 1.00
17:06 3.3 67.4 1.00
17:07 3.5 67.6 1.00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
Nov 2, 2009
Eastern Standard Time
Altitude Azimuth
(E of N)
17:00 0.8 250.3
17:01 0.6 250.5
17:02 0.4 250.6
17:03 0.3 250.8
17:04 0.1 250.9
17:05 -0.0 251.1
17:06 -0.8 251.2
17:07 -1.0 251.4
(http://www.8thelementdiving.com/images/puerto_vallarta_sunset.jpg)
Peace
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMThat was an example, could?ve used any number of words including الرُّومُ The Romans which according to your Lisaan alarab 13th & lane's lexicon 19th century holy books can be confused with desired, to seek, to wait/pause/expect, be patient, to mock/ridicule, and I wrote?
?Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.?
Similarly if we ask what is ?July? people say a month, little to do with Julius Caesar from which it derives.
So what it the best meaning for "ramadhan" according to you? A meaningless name of an arbitrary month? Or the circular and nonsensical "month of fast" so that when the god says "shahr ramadhan" he means "the month of the month of fast" according to your logic?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMCircular is to imply: falyasumhu so he should fast the fasting when it refers to the month.
What month? You said "ramadhan" means the "month of fast" so "shahr ramadhan" according to you means "the month of the month of fast". Can't you provide even a half-decent answer that doesn't reduce 2:185 into nonsense?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMNo straw-man, you?re habitual at projecting your opinions into the posts of others. Nothing about who do not make a vow/intent not obligated, it simply says what it says.
19:26 فقولي so say ان that نذرت I made a vow للرحمن to The Merciful صوما a fast...
2:185 clearly says "whoever amongst you xxxx should fast". Regardless of what xxxx means (vow or whatever other imaginary meanings you can make up), this implies that "those amongst you who don't xxxx are not oligated to fast". This is basic logic. You talk about strawman because you only see as far as your nose and fail to see the logical implications of your own interpretation.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMSo now you?re restriction is better as if a contest of sorts.
You are evading the question because you know that you have no answer.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMAlready posted not about global hunting; simply a local restriction during the gathering like a lollapalooza concert with no street vendors so be prepared same as you would not go empty to your hajj feast?
This has already been proven false. Why do you keep repeating false arguments? The things that are in 5:1-2 (honoring contracts, the livestock being made lawful, not hunting while restricted) clearly don't apply only around Mecca and only during "hajj". In fact, "hajj" is nowhere mentioned.
Again, the question is:
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?I answered all your questions but so far you can't answer any of my questions.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMAgain straw-man thread is about timing which all evidence, logic and common sense (e.g. the blind and people in cloudy weather get free pass) points to contradiction.
What strawman? Do you deny the following facts:
1. Your arbitrary "restricted months" are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7 and are not consecutive?
2. There is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on).
Instead of happily repeating "strawman" like it is a new word you just learned, support your nonsensical calendar by providing evidence denying the above facts and prove that I am indeed building a strawman.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMNot if your vision is poor or if it?s cloudy outside you won?t.
Now this is a real strawman. Please tell me where the word "witness" is in 9:1-3. The ONLY time witnessing is mentioned is in relation to the fast. This is it.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMNo disputes straw man; the new crescents are precisely calculated forward/backwards. I know exactly when to fast.
It is not a strawman unless you can disprove the following reality:
Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August: Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).
Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August: Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.
Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August:India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)
Again, all the above sources (Libya, Bosnia, Egypt, Saudi, India, Pakistan, etc.) that are independent from you and me didn't conspire with me against you just to prove you wrong. The above is the reality of what happened. What you are saying (that there is no dispute) is only in your wishful imagination.
When did you start your fast by the way?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 22, 2009, 03:40:31 AMAgain straw man the moon was clearly in the sky at sunset.
Again, you are biased and therefore looking at things from a biased point of view. Please post an independent source (like I did) showing that there was ever a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. If you can't then just be honest and admit it.
More importantly, just like guest, Belal and a billion sectarians, I am not surprised that you evade answering the most important question:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap. You clearly have ZERO answer.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:39:14 PM
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Correction: it's Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi Awwal.
9:2 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
According to you, is Ramadan also a month for the hajj?
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 22, 2009, 01:58:35 PMCorrection: it's Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi Awwal.
9:2 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
Please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar
"The three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, months 11, 12, and 1. The single forbidden month is Rajab, month 7."Please provide a source that indicates that they are "Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi Awwal" and not "Zul-Qiidah, Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar" or "Shawwal, Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar" or "Ramadhan, Shawwal, Zul Qiidah, Zul Hijjah", etc.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 22, 2009, 01:58:35 PMAccording to you, is Ramadan also a month for the hajj?
Out of the four inviolable full moons, the first one is for the fast and the following three are for the feast.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar
"The three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, months 11, 12, and 1. The single forbidden month is Rajab, month 7."
According to hadith fabricators and their followers, yes, but not according to God's words:
9:2 Therefore,
roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
They are consecutive.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
Please provide a source that indicates that they are "Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi Awwal" and not "Zul-Qiidah, Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar" or "Shawwal, Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar" or "Ramadhan, Shawwal, Zul Qiidah, Zul Hijjah", etc.
Edip-Layth - End Note 7 (9:37)
Today's Sunni and Shiite mushriks consider Rajab, Zul-Qada, Zul-Hijja, and Muharram to be the Restricted Months (the 7th, 11th, 12th, and 1st months of lunar calendar). However, when we study 2:197,217; 9:2,5,36 and the names of known months, we will discover that real Restricted Months must be four consecutive months and they are Zul-Hijja, Muharram, Safar, Rabi ul-Awal (12th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd months). The very name of the 12th month, Zul- Hijja (Contains Haj), gives us a clue that it is the first month of haj pilgrimage. When we start from the 12th month, the last of the Restricted Months becomes the 3rd month, Rabi ul-Awal (First Fourth), and the very name of this month also is revealing; it suggests that it is the fourth month of the Restricted Months. Then, why the qualification "First"? Well, the name of the following month provides an explanation: Rabi ul-Akhir (Second Fourth), which is the fourth month from the beginning of the year. In other words we have two months called "Fourth," the first one referring to the fourth restricted moth, with the second fourth referring to the fourth month of the lunar year. The word rabi (fourth) is used for seasons because each season is one fourth of a year. It is interesting that many of the crimes and distortions mentioned in the Quran have been committed by those who have abandoned the Quran for the sake of hadith and sunna; they repeated the same blunder of their polytheist ancestors.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
Out of the four inviolable full moons, the first one is for the fast and the following three are for the feast.
With the above statement I assume you mean that Ramadan is not a month (or full moon, if you like) for the hajj. This is clearly against the Quran:
2:197
The hajj is in the four known months. So, whosoever decides to perform the hajj in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor quarreling in the hajj. Any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is awareness; and be conscientious of Me O you who possesses intelligence.
It depends on which translation, look at this one (based on another tafsir):
(in arabic it does not give a number it just say months maalumaat:)
2:197 The Hajj (pilgrimage) is (in) the well-known (lunar year) months (i.e. the 10th month, the 11th month
and the first ten days of the 12th month of the Isl?mic calendar, i.e. two months and ten days). So
whosoever intends to perform Hajj therein by assuming Ihr?m), then he should not have sexual
relations (with his wife), nor commit sin, nor dispute unjustly during the Hajj. And whatever good you
do, (be sure) All?h knows it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best provision is
At-Taqwa (piety, righteousness, etc.). So fear Me, O men of understanding....
The Noble Quran
In the English Language
A Summarized Version of At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir
with comments from Sahih Al-Bukhari
By
Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan
Peace Progressive1993,
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 22, 2009, 03:11:04 PMAccording to hadith fabricators and their followers, yes, but not according to God's words:
9:2 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
They are consecutive.
I know that the inviolable full-moons are consecutive. On the other hand, the sectarian calendar doesn't have them as consecutive. So we know that the sectarian calendar is false since they arbitrarily select the inviolable period and make it not consecutive.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 22, 2009, 03:11:04 PMEdip-Layth - End Note 7 (9:37)
Today's Sunni and Shiite mushriks consider Rajab, Zul-Qada, Zul-Hijja, and Muharram to be the Restricted Months (the 7th, 11th, 12th, and 1st months of lunar calendar). However, when we study 2:197,217; 9:2,5,36 and the names of known months, we will discover that real Restricted Months must be four consecutive months and they are Zul-Hijja, Muharram, Safar, Rabi ul-Awal (12th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd months). The very name of the 12th month, Zul- Hijja (Contains Haj), gives us a clue that it is the first month of haj pilgrimage. When we start from the 12th month, the last of the Restricted Months becomes the 3rd month, Rabi ul-Awal (First Fourth), and the very name of this month also is revealing; it suggests that it is the fourth month of the Restricted Months. Then, why the qualification "First"? Well, the name of the following month provides an explanation: Rabi ul-Akhir (Second Fourth), which is the fourth month from the beginning of the year. In other words we have two months called "Fourth," the first one referring to the fourth restricted moth, with the second fourth referring to the fourth month of the lunar year. The word rabi (fourth) is used for seasons because each season is one fourth of a year. It is interesting that many of the crimes and distortions mentioned in the Quran have been committed by those who have abandoned the Quran for the sake of hadith and sunna; they repeated the same blunder of their polytheist ancestors.
Layth and Edip timing is just as arbitrary as sectarians and they are just as clueless:
1. First of all, just because someone named a month "Zul-Hijja", this doesn't mean that it contains Hajj (unless you take "zul-hijja" as a common noun, like I did with "ramadhan"). So here Edip and Layth are contradicting themselves. They take Ramadhan as a meaningless name that has nothing to do with its meaning of "scorching heat" and on the other hand they take Zul-Hijjah as meaningful and having something to do with its meaning. They are clearly caught in their inconsistencies.
2. Who said that Zul-Hijja must be the first month? Why not the last or in the middle? They just selected it arbitrarily as the first one.
3. Moreover, their timing is 100% dependent on the order of the months. What if Rajab was originally month 10 or month 2 but the sectarians changed its place? Since all the names are meaningless anyway, the names can be arbitrarily rearranged.
4. As I said, the names in the sectarian calendar are meaningless. So let's call them month 1, 2, 3, .... 12. Now you are saying that months 12, 1, 2, and 3 are restricted. But there is nothing inherent in month 1 that makes it month 1. So had the sectarians decided to start the count a month later then Edip and Layth's present month 12 would be a month later.
5. In fact, the sectarian (and Edip and Layth per the note) timing is tied to year 1 month 1 and can never be independent from it because they have been counting continuously since that time and didn't stop at 12. Recycling the names or labels of the months every 12 is not counting 12 as the god ordered in 9:36. They are now counting month #17170.
6. Layth and Edip confuse Rabi ul-Akhir and call it (Second Fourth). I expect such ignorant blunders from Edip but I never expected Layth to ignorantly confuse ربيع (grazing/spring) with رابع (fourth). Again, all this is besides the point anyway since in Edip's and Layth's world those months are meaningless labels anyway, otherwise they have to apply the same logic to "ramadhan" (scorching heat).
There are many other logical problems. I hope that this is not Layth's view but is just Edip as I expect such ignorance from him but Layth is generally a little more careful when it comes to making baseless assumptions.
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 22, 2009, 03:11:04 PMWith the above statement I assume you mean that Ramadan is not a month (or full moon, if you like) for the hajj. This is clearly against the Quran:
2:197 The hajj is in the four known months. So, whosoever decides to perform the hajj in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor quarreling in the hajj. Any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is awareness; and be conscientious of Me O you who possesses intelligence.
Where does it say FOUR in 2:197? Please give the Arabic and underline the word.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Nabeel,
Quote from: theNabster on September 22, 2009, 04:03:13 PMIt depends on which translation, look at this one (based on another tafsir):
(in arabic it does not give a number it just say months maalumaat:)
2:197 The Hajj (pilgrimage) is (in) the well-known (lunar year) months (i.e. the 10th month, the 11th month
and the first ten days of the 12th month of the Isl?mic calendar, i.e. two months and ten days). So
whosoever intends to perform Hajj therein by assuming Ihr?m), then he should not have sexual
relations (with his wife), nor commit sin, nor dispute unjustly during the Hajj. And whatever good you
do, (be sure) All?h knows it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best provision is
At-Taqwa (piety, righteousness, etc.). So fear Me, O men of understanding....
The Noble Quran
In the English Language
A Summarized Version of At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir
with comments from Sahih Al-Bukhari
By
Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan
This is intereting because the
"shahr" and ten days maybe some of the traces left from the original practice from before the corruption.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 22, 2009, 01:58:35 PM
Correction: it's Zul Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi Awwal.
9:2 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
Peace,
If what you say is true, then the following can be concluded:
Wednesday 21 March 630 C.E. is the day when 1 st Zul Hijjah year 8 (the year when the prophet concord The restricted City, and I believe when chapter 9 was revealed) was.
That tell us the following:
The first day of Ramadan was in Friday 22 December 629 C.E.
The 4 restricted months started on spring time and ended on July 630 C.E.
The Prophet had to fight during the Hot season, Which is true according to this verse in the same chapter 9:
Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say: �Do not mobilize in the heat.� Say: �The fire of Hell is much hotter,� if they could only understand.
9:81 فرح المخلفون بمقعدهم خلف رسول الله وكرهوا أن يجهدوا بأمولهم وأنفسهم في سبيل الله وقالوا لا تنفروا في الحر قل نار جهنم أشد حرا لو كانوا يفقهون
The above information are the most logic conclusions that are confirmed by the Quran.
On the other hand, according to Ayman, Fasting was in July year 8 (Arabic Calender), therefore, verse 9:81 is not true (we have to cancel out); hint, the four restricted month would have ended in Fall or winter time and never in Hot season.
To all, when Ayman (or even our Imam, Nabster) answers my two questions I posted for him before, please PM me so I can reply.
My Questions were, how many days are in the 4 restricted months? or how many days or years are in the 30 months that in verse 46-15.
May God bless the true believers, and guide those who are seeking his truth.
Peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 23, 2009, 12:05:11 AMIf what you say is true, then the following can be concluded:
Wednesday 21 March 630 C.E. is the day when 1 st Zul Hijjah year 8 (the year when the prophet concord The restricted City, and I believe when chapter 9 was revealed) was.
That tell us the following:
The first day of Ramadan was in Friday 22 December 629 C.E.
The 4 restricted months started on spring time and ended on July 630 C.E.
The Prophet had to fight during the Hot season, Which is true according to this verse in the same chapter 9:
Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say: �Do not mobilize in the heat.� Say: �The fire of Hell is much hotter,� if they could only understand.
9:81 فرح المخلفون بمقعدهم خلف رسول الله وكرهوا أن يجهدوا بأمولهم وأنفسهم في سبيل الله وقالوا لا تنفروا في الحر قل نار جهنم أشد حرا لو كانوا يفقهون
The above information are the most logic conclusions that are confirmed by the Quran.
On the other hand, according to Ayman, Fasting was in July year 8 (Arabic Calender), therefore, verse 9:81 is not true (we have to cancel out); hint, the four restricted month would have ended in Fall or winter time and never in Hot season.
To all, when Ayman (or even our Imam, Nabster) answers my two questions I posted for him before, please PM me so I can reply.
My Questions were, how many days are in the 4 restricted months? or how many days or years are in the 30 months that in verse 46-15.
May God bless the true believers, and guide those who are seeking his truth.
You are building dreams using thin air as walls. I think that this is so clear that anyone who doesn't see this deserves to be misguided.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 01:17:57 AM
Peace Belal,
You are building dreams using thin air as walls. I think that this is so clear that anyone who doesn't see this deserves to be misguided.
Peace,
Ayman
:rotfl:
OOOPS...Is that was a possible answer to your question?
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:39:14 PM
On the other hand, Belal and Eid act like they are all progressive and logical when in fact they are no different from Farida and Guest but instead of admitting the obvious, they claim to be following the great reading and then turn on their heels and run away from answering:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Peace,
Ayman
:) I think it is...Now it is your turn to answer my questions...Take a deep breath and go for it.
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:39:14 PM
Yeah, I miss the comic relief too :) . But seriously, Farida and Guest at least have implicitly admitted the obvious, which is that they are blindly following "the companions", "the believers" or "the scholars" (whatever they imagine those things to be).
Lies and more lies is your motto. You say believers are telling people to drink camel?s urine and dip flies in their food and now you are spreading lies about me of blindly following scholars. I hope you realize that these are bad behavior. You don?t even know the definition of believer. You have to be a believer to know a believer. I said ?
The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran.? Now, what kind of deduction mechanism did you used to convert this statement into a blind follower?
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 23, 2009, 03:08:44 PMLies and more lies is your motto. You say believers are telling people to drink camel?s urine and dip flies in their food and now you are spreading lies about me of blindly following scholars. I hope you realize that these are bad behavior. You don?t even know the definition of believer. You have to be a believer to know a believer. I said ?The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran.? Now, what kind of deduction mechanism did you used to convert this statement into a blind follower?
Do you suffer from somekind of inferiority complex? Instead of mindlessly repeating "I am not a blind follower of scholars" and "I am a believer" to bolster your self image, just do it. No intelligent person cares if you say a hundred times "I am a believer and Ayman is not". Your argument style is like that of a 5 year old child.
Which of your moronic scholars (name them and tell us exactly what they said) and which of their false teachings on the timing are in line with the great reading? Did the great reading tell you any of the following:
1. To arbitrarily go on your so-called Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hjjah?
2. To arbitrarily choose months 11, 12, 1, and 7 or 11,12,1,2 or 12,1,2,3 (as Belal baselessly assumes) or 10,11,12,1 or 9,10,11,12 or whatever as restricted.
3. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing the year 622CE to start the calendar.
4. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing any haphazard month (not even the month of the supposed Hijra) as month 1?
5. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on an arbitrary order of the months?
6. To take the god's word "ramadhan/scorching heat" as meaningless info that doesn't reflect the truth about the timing?
You and Belal and all sectarians who claim to follow the great reading will continue to expose your hypocrisy unless you can at least address the above 6 issues so that you can answer the following question:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap. I know that even a billion sectarians can't answer so please don't do like Belal and don't dream up a bunch of idiotic nonsense full of baseless assumptions that fails to address any of the above issues and therefore cannot answer the question.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace All,
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 06:51:30 PM
I know that even a billion sectarians can't answer so please don't do like Belal and don't dream up a bunch of idiotic nonsense full of baseless assumptions that fails to address any of the above issues and therefore cannot answer the question.
Ayman, calm down...Be constructive when criticizing so we can all learn.
My assumptions and conclusion are based on Quran ( 9-81 tell us that the four restricted months ended around Summer Time) and science (using the date converter to identify the season in which the four restricted moon cycles and Ramadan occurred when chapter 9 was revealed).
Before I follow any opinion I examine it using the Quran and other sound data...Therefore, I examined Brother Layth opinion. The result is "Layth's Opinion does not violate the Quran or the scientific data, and yours violates both...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?
I'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.
Peace all
Quote from: belH on September 23, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Peace All,
...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?
I'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.
Peace all
Peace :
Quote from: belH on September 23, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
Peace All,
...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?
A common methodology adopted by anyone who lacks arguements
QuoteI'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.
Which you will never get probably.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on September 23, 2009, 10:05:34 PM
Which you will never get probably.
Regards
Peace,
Let us hope he will be brave enough to do answer.
May God Bless
Peace Bro Ayman,
Regarding some of the idiotic comments made by the slanderer, 9:81 refers to the battle of Tabuq to which the Prophet led an expedition in October.
In that year there was a drought, abnormal heat, and famine, this is well documented...
since some of these who post here will only believe "infallible" muslim scholars, this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it:
deep breath:
"
9:81 Those who stayed away (from Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their staying behind the Messenger of
All?h; they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of All?h, and
they said: "March not forth in the heat." Say: "The Fire of Hell is more intense in heat", if only they
could understand!
9:117 All?h has forgiven the Prophet (SAW), the Muhajir?n (Muslim emigrants who left their homes and
came to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (Muslims of Al-Madinah) who followed him (Muhammad SAW) in
the time of distress (Tab?k expedition, etc.), after the hearts of a party of them had nearly deviated
(from the Right Path), but He accepted their repentance. Certainly, He is unto them full of Kindness,
Most Merciful.
9:118 And (He did forgive also) the three [who did not join the Tab?k expedition (whom the Prophet SAW)] left (i.e. he did not give his judgement in their case, and their case was suspended for All?h's
Decision) till for them the earth, vast as it is, was straitened and their ownselves were straitened to
them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from All?h, and no refuge but with Him. Then, He
accepted their repentance, that they might repent (unto Him). Verily, All?h is the One Who accepts
repentance, Most Merciful.
Battle of Tabuk
Mujahid and several others said, "This Ayah was revealed concerning the battle of Tabuk.
They left for that battle during a period of distress.
It was a year with little rain, intense heat and scarcity of supplies and water.''
Qatadah said, "They went to Ash-Sham during the year of the battle of Tabuk at a time when the heat was intense.
Allah knew how hard things were, and they suffered great hardship. We were told that two men used to divide a date between themselves. Some of them would take turns in sucking on a date and drinking water, then give it to another man to suck on. Allah forgave them and allowed them to come back from that battle.''
Ibn Jarir reported that `Abdullah bin `Abbas said that `Umar bin Al-Khattab was reminded of the battle of distress (Tabuk) and `Umar said, "We went with the Messenger of Allah in the intense heat for Tabuk. We camped at a place in which we were stricken so hard by thirst that we thought that our necks would be severed. One of us used to go out in search of water and did not return until he feared that his neck would be severed. One would slaughter his camel, squeeze its intestines and drink its content, placing whatever was left on his kidney. Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said, `O Allah's Messenger! Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, has always accepted your invocation, so invoke Allah for us.' The Prophet said, (Would you like me to do that) Abu Bakr said, `Yes.' The Prophet raised his hands and did not put them down until rain fell from the sky in abundance. It rained and then stopped raining for a while, then rained again, so they filled their containers. We went out to see where the rain reached and found that it did not rain beyond our camp.''' Ibn Jarir said about Allah's statement, 9:117 , 9:118.
"
As for the time for the Battle of Tabuk, it can be found out from several sources that it was in October, so not in the Summer!!!...
Quote from: theNabster on September 23, 2009, 10:58:48 PM
Peace Bro Ayman,
Regarding some of the idiotic comments made by the slanderer, 9:81 refers to the battle of Tabuq to which the Prophet led an expedition in October.
In that year there was a drought, abnormal heat, and famine, this is well documented...
since some of these who post here will only believe "infallible" muslim scholars, this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it:
deep breath:
"
9:81 Those who stayed away (from Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their staying behind the Messenger of
All?h; they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of All?h, and
they said: "March not forth in the heat." Say: "The Fire of Hell is more intense in heat", if only they
could understand!
9:117 All?h has forgiven the Prophet (SAW), the Muhajir?n (Muslim emigrants who left their homes and
came to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (Muslims of Al-Madinah) who followed him (Muhammad SAW) in
the time of distress (Tab?k expedition, etc.), after the hearts of a party of them had nearly deviated
(from the Right Path), but He accepted their repentance. Certainly, He is unto them full of Kindness,
Most Merciful.
9:118 And (He did forgive also) the three [who did not join the Tab?k expedition (whom the Prophet SAW)] left (i.e. he did not give his judgement in their case, and their case was suspended for All?h's
Decision) till for them the earth, vast as it is, was straitened and their ownselves were straitened to
them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from All?h, and no refuge but with Him. Then, He
accepted their repentance, that they might repent (unto Him). Verily, All?h is the One Who accepts
repentance, Most Merciful.
Battle of Tabuk
Mujahid and several others said, "This Ayah was revealed concerning the battle of Tabuk.
They left for that battle during a period of distress.
It was a year with little rain, intense heat and scarcity of supplies and water.''
Qatadah said, "They went to Ash-Sham during the year of the battle of Tabuk at a time when the heat was intense.
Allah knew how hard things were, and they suffered great hardship. We were told that two men used to divide a date between themselves. Some of them would take turns in sucking on a date and drinking water, then give it to another man to suck on. Allah forgave them and allowed them to come back from that battle.''
Ibn Jarir reported that `Abdullah bin `Abbas said that `Umar bin Al-Khattab was reminded of the battle of distress (Tabuk) and `Umar said, "We went with the Messenger of Allah in the intense heat for Tabuk. We camped at a place in which we were stricken so hard by thirst that we thought that our necks would be severed. One of us used to go out in search of water and did not return until he feared that his neck would be severed. One would slaughter his camel, squeeze its intestines and drink its content, placing whatever was left on his kidney. Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said, `O Allah's Messenger! Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, has always accepted your invocation, so invoke Allah for us.' The Prophet said, (Would you like me to do that) Abu Bakr said, `Yes.' The Prophet raised his hands and did not put them down until rain fell from the sky in abundance. It rained and then stopped raining for a while, then rained again, so they filled their containers. We went out to see where the rain reached and found that it did not rain beyond our camp.''' Ibn Jarir said about Allah's statement, 9:117 , 9:118.
"
As for the time for the Battle of Tabuk, it can be found out from several sources that it was in October, so not in the Summer!!!...
Peace :
Do not jump into the lap of fabricated history and ahadith.
How come now they have become "reliable" ??
Contradiction /cotnradiction /conradiction between words and action.If someone else quotes from Tabari ,will you accept it ? First decide it .
Regards
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 23, 2009, 08:47:29 PMAyman, calm down...Be constructive when criticizing so we can all learn.
My assumptions and conclusion are based on Quran ( 9-81 tell us that the four restricted months ended around Summer Time) and science (using the date converter to identify the season in which the four restricted moon cycles and Ramadan occurred when chapter 9 was revealed).
If you want constructive criticism then here is the most constructive thing anyone here ever gave you: Don't start from the sectarian calendar and desperetly work backwards to justify it and instead start from a pure mind free of preconceptions.
9:81 doesn't say that the four restricted months ended around summer time. Can you please copy and paste the passage that says that the event in 9:81 came
immediately after 9:1-3 and that everything in the 77 passages between 9:1-3 and 9:81 we can just forget about? The fact is that all we know is that 9:81 happened after 9:1-3 and was in the hot time of the year and from 9:86 that a passage was revealed around that time. We don't know if it is a few months after or one year after or 5 years after 9:1-3. So you are making a baseless assumption.
The other baseless assumption you are making is that the restricted "months" are the sectarian restricted months but starting from Zul Hijjah. So you know that the sectarian calendar is false and yet you hypocritically continue to base your nonsense on it.
The other nonsense in your argument is that you conveniently forget that the so-called Islamic calendar was not even established at that time. The months in the Islamic calendar are 100% dependent on when month 1 started and the year where the new era was made to start, all of which were arbitrarily decided later supposedly at the time of Umar. You have no idea when the so-called Islamic Calendar was established and even if it was established earlier this has zero impact on the fact that it is arbitrary and still the months will depend on month 1 and the start of the new era and the haphazard order of the months. So THREE completely arbitrary and manmade factors.
Again, EVERYTHING that you said is based on starting from the preconception of the sectarian calendar and then working backwards. You are not starting from the great reading with pure intentions.
You should have been able to see all this on your own if you had a little bit of intelligence instead of asking me to spoonfeed you what has been repeated on this thread time after time again. It is not my fault that you are slow.
Quote from: belH on September 23, 2009, 08:47:29 PMBefore I follow any opinion I examine it using the Quran and other sound data...Therefore, I examined Brother Layth opinion. The result is "Layth's Opinion does not violate the Quran or the scientific data, and yours violates both...does that makes you angry enough to call me names?
Again, you seem unable to read previous posts:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg223683#msg223683
Quote from: belH on September 23, 2009, 08:47:29 PMI'm still waiting for your answer to my two questions.
I already answered every question you and anyone else had on this thread. On the other hand, you and none of those following the sectarians' timing on this thread have answered my ONE question.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Nabeel,
Quote from: theNabster on September 23, 2009, 10:58:48 PMRegarding some of the idiotic comments made by the slanderer, 9:81 refers to the battle of Tabuq to which the Prophet led an expedition in October.
In that year there was a drought, abnormal heat, and famine, this is well documented...
since some of these who post here will only believe "infallible" muslim scholars, this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it:
I wouldn't put any weight on Islamic history, especially the dating of all its events. All the dates were messed up and pushed forward by years so that several generations later people can claim that their forefathers, saints and bygone kings fought with the prophet or were his companions or his relatives. Chapter 9 itself destroys Belal's baseless claim that 9:81 happened right after 9:1-3. All he needed to do was to read the 77 verses in between and see all the other events that happened in between (for example the battle of Hunayin in 9:25). Belal is following nothing but "thann"/conjecture.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 06:51:30 PM
Do you suffer from somekind of inferiority complex?
I was responding to your false accusation. This is my God given right. People who are against God would most certainly take that right away from good people. Ayman, stop acting like a child, improve your behavior, and hold fast to God?s light.
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 06:51:30 PM
Instead of mindlessly repeating "I am not a blind follower of scholars" and "I am a believer" to bolster your self image, just do it. No intelligent person cares if you say a hundred times "I am a believer and Ayman is not". Your argument style is like that of a 5 year old child.
The above quote is very interesting since you are equating repeating behavior to 5 year old child. Now, how many time have you repeated this quote of yours my dear Watson: ?How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.?, 5 times, 10 times, or 20 times? The answer is numerous times. Therefore, by your own definition, you are a 5 years old child, who is repeating the same thing mindlessly. You have condemned yourself, ignorantly.
It will be very interesting to play chess with you because it would take only few moves to defeat you (checkmate) since you are incapable of thinking ahead even a single move (as demonstrated by your quote above). Ayman, truly you do make my day. Please keep it up. Thank you.
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 06:51:30 PM
Which of your moronic scholars (name them and tell us exactly what they said) and which of their false teachings on the timing are in line with the great reading?
I have many scholars but I will just name one for you: Prophet Muhammad. And you are proudly calling Prophet Muhammad and his follower morons. This is a despicable act of yours. Initially people used their innermost thought to accept Prophet Muhammad?s message as there were no written Quran to go around. Quran was not canonized yet. You and your followers must be very proud for labeling Prophet as a moron.
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 06:51:30 PM
Did the great reading tell you any of the following:
1. To arbitrarily go on your so-called Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hjjah?
2. To arbitrarily choose months 11, 12, 1, and 7 or 11,12,1,2 or 12,1,2,3 (as Belal baselessly assumes) or 10,11,12,1 or 9,10,11,12 or whatever as restricted.
3. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing the year 622CE to start the calendar.
4. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on arbitrarily choosing any haphazard month (not even the month of the supposed Hijra) as month 1?
5. To have the placement of your so-called Ramadhan dependent on an arbitrary order of the months?
6. To take the god's word "ramadhan/scorching heat" as meaningless info that doesn't reflect the truth about the timing?
My dear Watson, we are not debating my theory here. We are debating you theory. Why don?t you have the capability to keep this in mind when you are writing and asking questions? Please put you theory in the above format (i.e. 1. your marker, 2. when you start Ramadan, 3. how you count years, etc) and I will (God willing) disprove it again via contradiction. And to show contradiction in your theory is merely a child play.
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AM
I have many scholars but I will just name one for you: Prophet Muhammad. And you are proudly calling Prophet Muhammad and his follower morons. This is a despicable act of yours. Initially people used their innermost thought to accept Prophet Muhammad?s message as there were no written Quran to go around. Quran was not canonized yet. You and your followers must be very proud for labeling Prophet as a moron.
Will you kindly share the
DVD with all of us, which prophet Mohammad (pbuh) passed on to you for the benifit of mankind?
siki
Peace Bro Ayman,
As a response to what is being said...
I do not think the word scholar/s convey the meaning alim/ulama as it is.
In fact the derogatory word in english for muslim alim is (among other) cleric.
It will be better to think in terms of Alim, as in my view, most certainly no Prophet was
a Scholar in the western sense...
beside, Prophets have a special standing, in that they do not produce works of scholastic
interest (this is what scholars do), they in fact receive Revelations from Allah, so the exemplifying a Prophet to a Scholar is clearly incorrect.
As for the Alims like the ones who really matter (cf the one who outsmarted Ifrit in Solomon's and Queen of Saba story)
these you will not meet in a Jama'a, a conventional Library, a common Masjid/Jama', or a sectarian gathering I am afraid and certain of, and am sure they keep to their own, if there are still people of this caliber, and I wish there are, they do get things (ghaib things by Allah's leave that solve problems), done.
As a conclusion, comparing a Prophet to an Alim is not appropriate, whatever the definition, as the functions are different.
Using this argument as an excuse in the current argument to undermine a line of thought is therefore (gently put) misleading...
Quote from: theNabster on September 24, 2009, 11:52:17 AM
Peace Bro Ayman,
As a response to what is being said...
I do not think the word scholar/s convey the meaning alim/ulama as it is.
In fact the derogatory word in english for muslim alim is (among other) cleric.
It will be better to think in terms of Alim, as in my view, most certainly no Prophet was
a Scholar in the western sense...
beside, Prophets have a special standing, in that they do not produce works of scholastic
interest (this is what scholars do), they in fact receive Revelations from Allah, so the exemplifying a Prophet to a Scholar is clearly incorrect.
As for the Alims like the ones who really matter (cf the one who outsmarted Ifrit in Solomon's and Queen of Saba story)
these you will not meet in a Jama'a, a conventional Library, a common Masjid, or a sectarian gathering I am afraid and certain of, and am sure they keep to their own, if there are still people of this caliber, and I wish there are, they do get things (ghaib things by Allah's leave that solve problems), done.
As a conclusion, comparing a Prophet to an Alim is not appropriate, whatever the definition, as the functions are different.
Using this argument as an excuse in the current argument to undermine a line of thought is therefore (gently put) misleading...
Islam is not in need of westrized concepts but of its own concepts. We would like to believe in Umar ,Uthman RA instead of David ,Richard ,Lewnski etc but
Birds of a feather flock together.
Peace,
in my view, the western scholars constrain themselves to the realm of the Seen (athahir), whereas a true muslim Alim will endeavor to look at reality from a more extended view, including the Unseen (ghaib/baattin).
but if one wishes to use the word Alim loosely, there are levels of Ilm, from the Seen to the Unseen, and it is better to not be exclusive in the definitions, as the Quran does not seem to be, as in the Ayat "... above every one who who is endowed with 'Ilm, (Allah makes) one more Alim (knowledgeable) - and I dispute that this definition is only about Deen as the sectarian religious scholars want to force feed...
so yes, that also includes john, joshua, joaquim and michael, together with umar, reza, abu hanifa and ayman ;)
Quote from: Q_student on September 24, 2009, 12:11:55 PM
Islam is not in need of westrized concepts but of its own concepts. We would like to believe in Umar ,Uthman RA instead of David ,Richard ,Lewnski etc but
Birds of a feather flock together.
Quote from: siki on September 24, 2009, 11:00:06 AM
Will you kindly share the DVD with all of us, which prophet Mohammad (pbuh) passed on to you for the benifit of mankind?
siki
DVD is 1995 technology. Therefore, Prophet Muhammad couldn?t have passed DVD to us. As usual, this is another of your illogical and contradictory statement.
DVD as an industry standard was announced in November 1995 and backed by major players in the CE, IT and movie industry. The first players appeared in Japan in November, 1996, followed by U.S. players in March, 1997. To produce DVD players, one needs to license a range of patents, owned by different companies. A number of these companies (Philips, Sony, Matsushita and Toshiba) have decided to license the necessary patents through one licensing agent. Philips has been selected to take up this administrative role. Matshusita, was the company mainly responsible for the development of DVD as it is today. Philips, one of the first companies to make CD players, was the first to make a DVD player. The invention of DVD cannot be attributed to one person or one company.
Quote from: theNabster on September 24, 2009, 12:57:58 PM
Peace,
in my view, the western scholars constrain themselves to the realm of the Seen (athahir), whereas a true muslim Alim will endeavor to look at reality from a more extended view, including the Unseen (ghaib/baattin).
but if one wishes to use the word Alim loosely, there are levels of Ilm, from the Seen to the Unseen, and it is better to not be exclusive in the definitions, as the Quran does not seem to be, as in the Ayat "... above every one who who is endowed with 'Ilm, (Allah makes) one more Alim (knowledgeable) - and I dispute that this definition is only about Deen as the sectarian religious scholars want to force feed...
so yes, that also includes john, joshua, joaquim and michael, together with umar, reza, abu hanifa and ayman ;)
Ayman? How ? a person who does not know abc of Quranic language ,you are considering him among Ulamaa.Look at our discussion of diptotes. Ask him what a diptote is and whether if the word Ramadhan is used as a diptote in the Quran or not.
He will run away as usual which is his very obvious methodology.
Regards
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 01:22:49 PM
DVD is 1995 technology. Therefore, Prophet Muhammad couldn?t have passed DVD to us. As usual, this is another of your illogical and contradictory statement.
DVD as an industry standard was announced in November 1995 and backed by major players in the CE, IT and movie industry. The first players appeared in Japan in November, 1996, followed by U.S. players in March, 1997. To produce DVD players, one needs to license a range of patents, owned by different companies. A number of these companies (Philips, Sony, Matsushita and Toshiba) have decided to license the necessary patents through one licensing agent. Philips has been selected to take up this administrative role. Matshusita, was the company mainly responsible for the development of DVD as it is today. Philips, one of the first companies to make CD players, was the first to make a DVD player. The invention of DVD cannot be attributed to one person or one company.
So, in such a scenario, when you dont have a footage of prophet Mohammad's life , let me say that, You have chosen to follow the word of mouth practices corrupted by scholars through 30 odd generations.
No wonder you are totally disregarding the clear evidences from the only incorruptible source left by our prophet Mohammad (pbuh).
So think again, Are you following the prophet, or Are you following scholars who have corrupted the practices over a period of time?
siki
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AMI was responding to your false accusation. This is my God given right. People who are against God would most certainly take that right away from good people. Ayman, stop acting like a child, improve your behavior, and hold fast to God?s light.
The above quote is very interesting since you are equating repeating behavior to 5 year old child. Now, how many time have you repeated this quote of yours my dear Watson: ?How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.?, 5 times, 10 times, or 20 times? The answer is numerous times. Therefore, by your own definition, you are a 5 years old child, who is repeating the same thing mindlessly. You have condemned yourself, ignorantly.
It will be very interesting to play chess with you because it would take only few moves to defeat you (checkmate) since you are incapable of thinking ahead even a single move (as demonstrated by your quote above). Ayman, truly you do make my day. Please keep it up. Thank you.
My question has to do directly with the issue which has over 2000 posts and over 34000 views. On the other hand you mindlessly repeating "I am a believer while you are not a believer, na na......na na na" is typical of spoiled undisciplined playground children. Even my little kids have been raised to be disciplined and mature enough and they don't act like you.
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AMI have many scholars but I will just name one for you: Prophet Muhammad. And you are proudly calling Prophet Muhammad and his follower morons. This is a despicable act of yours. Initially people used their innermost thought to accept Prophet Muhammad?s message as there were no written Quran to go around. Quran was not canonized yet. You and your followers must be very proud for labeling Prophet as a moron.
What you are saying is the same thing that Christians say about their prophet. They say ?Prophet Jesus said: I am the son of god". You are in reality following satan and you are misguided. You are a liar just like your idiot scholars who attributed the false Sunna to the prophet. If you are not a liar then please quote where Prophet Mohammed said the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on:
1. O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
2. O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
3. O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
4. O believers ignore 9:5 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.
5. O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.
6. O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.
7. O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
8. O believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AMMy dear Watson, we are not debating my theory here. We are debating you theory. Why don?t you have the capability to keep this in mind when you are writing and asking questions?
You have no answers to my questions and so of course you cowardly don?t want to debate your nonsensical theory about the traditional timing and want us to follow it blindly like cattle like you and your forefathers.
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AMPlease put you theory in the above format (i.e. 1. your marker, 2. when you start Ramadan, 3. how you count years, etc) and I will (God willing) disprove it again via contradiction. And to show contradiction in your theory is merely a child play.
Read post 1. It is now over post 2000 and almost 5 years later and no one has been able to disprove it. It is safe to say that someone with your demonstrated low level of knowledge and intelligence can never do it.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: siki on September 24, 2009, 01:48:59 PM
So, in such a scenario, when you dont have a footage of prophet Mohammad's life , let me say that, You have chosen to follow the word of mouth practices corrupted by scholars through 30 odd generations.
How would you know the authenticity of the DVD i.e. how do you know that it hasen't been tampered with. This is also true of the classical dictionary. DVD = word of mouth. You are facing the same dilema. You need to think slowly and logically. All matter comes down to the innermost thought.
Quote from: siki on September 24, 2009, 01:48:59 PM
No wonder you are totally disregarding the clear evidences from the only incorruptible source left by our prophet Mohammad (pbuh).
Not at all. I am disregarding Ayman's twisted words and the definition of arabic dictionary. Thats all.
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on September 24, 2009, 01:30:10 PMAyman? How ? a person who does not know abc of Quranic language ,you are considering him among Ulamaa.Look at our discussion of diptotes. Ask him what a diptote is and whether if the word Ramadhan is used as a diptote in the Quran or not.
He will run away as usual which is his very obvious methodology.
Regards
You sound a little jealous :) . Maybe you are still mad that I proved you to be a shameless blatant liar when you said that Thamuda didn't have a final Alif, which I am sure that you will now remember for the rest of your life whenever you read the occasional occurrences of Thamuda with an Alif in the great reading. Instead of being obsessed with me, why don't you try to answer the question:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.We will now see who will cowerdly run from answering the question like all the other blind sectarians defending the indefensible traditional calendar on this thread.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 02:58:49 PM
Peace Q_student,
You sound a little jealous :) . Maybe you are still mad that I proved you to be a shameless blatant liar when you said that Thamuda didn't have a final Alif, which I am sure that you will now remember for the rest of your life whenever you read the occasional occurrences of Thamuda with an Alif in the great reading. Instead of being obsessed with me, why don't you try to answer the question:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
We will now see who will cowerdly run from answering the question like all the other blind sectarians defending the indefensible traditional calendar on this thread.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
There is no confliction. Give the definition of Diptote and its signs to recognize it. And tell every one whether Ramadhan is used as Diptote in the Quran or not. Why are you running away. Prove your Classical Arabic efficiency. Why Reluctant as usual.
NABSTER !! please note he has evaded the diptote question. I foretold you.This is what I wanted to prove.
Regards
Peace, Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 02:48:14 PM
My question has to do directly with the issue which has over 2000 posts and over 34000 views.
Finally, the real Ayman really stood up. His true motive is number of posts and views and NOT THE TRUTH.
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 02:48:14 PM
What you are saying is the same thing that Christians say about their prophet. They say ?Prophet Jesus said: I am the son of god".
I didn?t tell you to follow wicked people. I told you to follow believers like Prophet Muhammad. Use your innermost thoughts to decipher good from the bad. You are consistently using satanic view as an example. That is your style. No wonder why your theory so polluted.
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 02:48:14 PM
Read post 1. It is now over post 2000 and almost 5 years later and no one has been able to disprove it. It is safe to say that someone with your demonstrated low level of knowledge and intelligence can never do it.
You are unable to comprehend even a simple matter. This happens when one is under the spill of satan. For your information, post 1 is not in the format I requested. I knew you aren?t going to do that because then you will expose your own falsehood. Go ahead provide your concept in the requested format and I will defeat it in no time. You are too slick to do it. I will disprove your so called Ramadan theory again and then send you to the BORG. And you what they do best.
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 03:29:26 PM
Peace, Ayman,
Finally, the real Ayman really stood up. His true motive is number of posts and views and NOT THE TRUTH.
I didn?t tell you to follow wicked people. I told you to follow believers like Prophet Muhammad. Use your innermost thoughts to decipher good from the bad. You are consistently using satanic view as an example. That is your style. No wonder why your theory so polluted.
You are unable to comprehend even a simple matter. This happens when one is under the spill of satan. For your information, post 1 is not in the format I requested. I knew you aren?t going to do that because then you will expose your own falsehood. Go ahead provide your concept in the requested format and I will defeat it in no time. You are too slick to do it. I will disprove your so called Ramadan theory again and then send you to the BORG. And you what they do best.
Peace Guest
You are just wasting your time. Look at this Quranic Principle .
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنْذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنْذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ (6) خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ [البقرة/6، 7]
Regards
Peace Q_student
what are you on about with your diptotes and triptotes bs?
these are grammatical classifications made for convenience after the fact like for any and all languages...
you happen to read something somewhere and now you are a linguist?
who cares?
I am interested in the meanings of the words in the Quran, especially words as important as Ramadhan since we
are having an issue here!!!
Well if it makes you happy, in the classification, any word that ends with an (aliph, nun) is a diptote, so according to this
the word ramadhan is a diptote, and so is the word ramadan (ashes)... happy now :whatever:
and to quote the definition, a diptote is a word which cannot be conjugated...
now you will have to do better in your debunking homework...
speaking of which, you are just debunking for the sake of debunking, you do not care about the Truth, or Salvation,
you are just a spoilt self righteous brat, and I am sure that at the time of the Prophet if you were to exist, you would have been the most argumentative pest there would have been, and would have kept with the People of the Book if you were among them, citing how the Torah was much better at explaining what Muhammed was sent for...
So be careful who you point your finger at as being the kafir...
Quote from: theNabster on September 23, 2009, 10:58:48 PM
this is what Ibn Kathir Tafsir says about it:
Qatadah said,.''
Ibn Jarir reported that Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said
"
Do I smell Hadith's argument? :rotfl: You can't quite being Imam.
Quote from: ayman on September 23, 2009, 11:26:13 PM
Peace Belal,
If you want constructive criticism then here is the most constructive thing anyone here ever gave you: Don't start from the sectarian calendar and desperetly work backwards to justify it and instead start from a pure mind free of preconceptions.
An argument can start both ways...You can start with the Quran to evaluate an argument or you can start with the argument backwards and see if it violates the Quran--Inductive and Deductive Reasoning.
The Altimate truths (My assumptions) that I used to evaluate your, Suni, and Layth's arguments are:
The Four Restricted Moon Cycles are consecutive
War Is Prohibited during these Moon Cycles
There was a Battle that Prophet Mohamed was preparing for During Heat Season (summer)
Because the above assumptions are the Ultimate sound truth, Then the FOUR RESTRICTED MOON CYCLES HAVE TO START FOUR MOON CYCLES BEFORE SUMMER.
Therefore, YOUR HYPOTHESES THAT RAMADAN IS IN SUMMER TIME IS NOT TRUE :!
Accusing my argument to be based on Baseless assumption is far from truth.
When I used the same above true assumption to evaluate Layth's argument, the result is as I said before "Layth's argument is not violating the True and sound assumptions--The Quran.
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 07:02:13 PM
Do I smell Hadith's argument? :rotfl: You can't quite being Imam.
Peace :
For this group every thing "ibne kathir " Ibne Jarir " are ok provided it may help them from some remote interpretation.
Such type of contradiction is a clear indication of lack of knowledge and arguement .
It happens when "A drowning man catches at a straw".
Regards
Salam,
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 07:02:13 PM
War Is Prohibited during these Moon Cycles
There was a Battle that Prophet Mohamed was preparing for During Heat Season (summer)
You still not getting the big picture.... There was a battle BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEMSELF... read again Al-Quran, The God never allowed aggression....
Peace all,
Ayman, please allow me to evaluate another argument of yours:
Quote from: ayman on November 20, 2004, 10:55:00 AM
One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.
If Omar started to change from Solar Calender to Lunar in year 638 AD is TRUE
And if the Prophet used to Fast During July Month and his companion up to year 637 AD before Omar Change the Calender (Scorching Moon) Is TRUE
Then Ramadan Month Should have been in July, 638AD, and then started to change gradually due to Omer Calender.
Now is the above hypotheses (the underlined part) is TRUE based on the un-disputable date fact?
The result is : NO.
Monday 3 Rajab 17 A.H. falls on July 21, 638
Now, can you see why I do not agree with your hypotheses...Simply because your hypotheses can't be validated using sound and un-disputable data.
I hope you can understand my argument my position now...it is never been about you or suni or any one, but it is about my God given brain that I have to use in order to reach the Truth.
Quote from: arista on September 24, 2009, 07:34:59 PM
Salam,
You still not getting the big picture.... There was a battle BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEMSELF... read again Al-Quran, The God never allowed aggression....
Peace,
The prophet was ordered to wait until the four restricted months ended before starting the war...hence, he was not under attack, which would allow him to defend his town even if were during the Restricted Moon Cycles.
However, he was ordered to start wars in order to free the Holly Land, and in some wars to help the oppressed people whom were tortured due to their religion. And in all these kind of wars, He was never a transgressor.
Now, with respect to the war that is mentioned in 9:81, it is clear that it was not an immanent war, which He was under attack.
When reading 9:83, clairly it shows that the Prophet was at war away from the town in which he lived.
So,
if God sends you back to a group of them, and they ask your permission to come with you, then say: �You will not come with me ever; nor will you fight any enemy with me. You had accepted staying behind the first time, so stay with those who remain behind.�
9:83 فإن رجعك الله إلى طائفة منهم فاستءذنوك للخروج فقل لن تخرجوا معي أبدا ولن تقتلوا معي عدوا إنكم رضيتم بالقعود أول مرة فاقعدوا مع الخلفين
Peace
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 07:02:13 PM
There was a Battle that Prophet Mohamed was preparing for During Heat Season (summer)
How do you know it was during the summer? , there was a heat wave and famine during the whole year of the (btw never to happen)
Battle of Tabuq...
As I lived in the Sahara desert, I was born there, I know what I am talking about...
I have unignored you temporarily.
Tell your other slanderer mate that to be a student, he needs to be ready to learn, an attribute he seems to lack and so do you, and you are both very selective in the reading of posts, just groping at what dazzles you and running away building arguments (usually flawed at that) against it.
Also I was seduced by Layth proposal, but it loses out on several grounds...
Peace Arista,
Quote from: arista on September 24, 2009, 07:34:59 PMYou still not getting the big picture.... There was a battle BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEMSELF... read again Al-Quran, The God never allowed aggression....
Thank you for pointing out the obvious that should have been clear to anyone who has read the great reading. If you have been following this discussion then you probably know by now that Belal never read 2:217 and is hopelessly unaware of the fact that, as you said, fighting is ALWAYS allowed in self-defense (even during the restriction period) and is NEVER allowed in agression.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 07:46:31 PMAyman, please allow me to evaluate another argument of yours:
If Omar started to change from Solar Calender to Lunar in year 638 AD is TRUE
And if the Prophet used to Fast During July Month and his companion up to year 637 AD before Omar Change the Calender (Scorching Moon) Is TRUE
Then Ramadan Month Should have been in July, 638AD, and then started to change gradually due to Omer Calender.
Now is the above hypotheses (the underlined part) is TRUE based on the un-disputable date fact?
The result is : NO.
Monday 3 Rajab 17 A.H. falls on July 21, 638
Now, can you see why I do not agree with your hypotheses...Simply because your hypotheses can't be validated using sound and un-disputable data.
I hope you can understand my argument my position now...it is never been about you or suni or any one, but it is about my God given brain that I have to use in order to reach the Truth.
You are forgetting that there was no month Rajab and no month called Ramadhan, etc. and no present order of the months prior to Umar or whoever made up the calendar. All these were invented sometime after the death of the prophet (who we don't know when he died). So everything that you are saying is just conjecture based on more conjecture.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: guest on September 24, 2009, 02:56:33 PM
How would you know the authenticity of the DVD i.e. how do you know that it hasen't been tampered with. This is also true of the classical dictionary. DVD = word of mouth. You are facing the same dilema. You need to think slowly and logically. All matter comes down to the innermost thought.
Not at all. I am disregarding Ayman's twisted words and the definition of arabic dictionary. Thats all.
:confused: My dilema in your case is that , "On one side you have the intellect to question the authenticity of the footage recorded on a disk, but then you blindly follow the scholar's passed on practices in the name of Islam , in gross violation of Quran ???
:'( I just cant understand above. :hypno: Will you help me out here , as to how you accomplish this?
:wow So you are zipping through this life with the help of innermost thoughts :tempt: only, and Quran has nothing to do with guidance in your case :hmm
siki
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 09:17:33 PM
You are forgetting that there was no month Rajab and no month called Ramadhan, etc. and no present order of the months prior to Umar or whoever made up the calendar. All these were invented sometime after the death of the prophet (who we don't know when he died). So everything that you are saying is just conjecture based on more conjecture.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman, are you fooling us or yourself...Where did I assume that prior to 638 AD the Prophet used the Lunar Calender? In order to be fair when evaluating your hypotheses, I ignored this fact, which I believe is true.
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 09:11:37 PM
as you said, fighting is ALWAYS allowed in self-defense (even during the restriction period) and is NEVER allowed in agression.
Again, your argument violates the ultimate truth of 9:5. And as I said before, the wars that were ordered by God are not aggressions but to help other societies whom lived under oppression.
Quote from: theNabster on September 24, 2009, 08:37:16 PM
How do you know it was during the summer? , there was a heat wave and famine during the whole year of the (btw never to happen)
Battle of Tabuq...
If it was not the Summer season, how would they have predicted that there will be a heat wave in the future? Even today, no one can predict the weather for the coming two months (which is about the time for preparing and traveling to the land in which the battle will take place) with all the technology we have.
It seems that you are giving up in being logic, and instead, you want to live in the state of mind when you were Imam.
Ayman and Nabster, you are running away from using your God Given Brain, and soon you will loose it. Unless you build your argument on a solid assumptions as I did, you are making fool of yourselves.
Salam co-believers, my post here is just an advice, and it goes more to the proponents of Ramadhan=HOT month. Pls we should stop calling each other names simply because someone refuses to believe in what u feel is right or better, we know how people react to ideas they don't like or can't comprehend. Pls the proponents of this topic should be aware that they are like messengers who are trying to deliver the people from error and ignorance and so have to do that with wisdom. For it is far better to see someone in paradise because u were able to convey a message to his heart than seeing him in hell because you show him the truth and he refused to believe. And lastly the forgone sectarian scholars are gone and unaware of us and we are not liable to what they did, so why insulting them as morons and nonsense scholars? All these insult will not revart the corruption upon the religion. And moreover we are advice in the great reading not to insult the idols worshiped by the idolaters.
Quote from: justice on September 24, 2009, 09:58:36 PM
Pls we should stop calling each other names simply because someone refuses to believe in what u feel is right or better
Thank you for the valuable reminder of our Lord. May God forgive us for our mistakes.
Quote from: justice on September 24, 2009, 09:58:36 PM
Pls the proponents of this topic should be aware that they are like messengers who are trying to deliver the people from error and ignorance and so have to do that with wisdom.
Do you agree that discounting 1 moon cycle every 3 years is wisdom?
Do you agree that period of the moon cycle is 10 days sometimes and 29 in other times is wisdom?
Do you agree that The blind Man is not obligated to fast?
Do you agree that there are two Share Ramadan, one for the Northern and the other for the Southern Hampshire is wisdom?
These are some of the wisdom of the Proponents of this topic.
:)
Peace belH
and thanx for the nihilistic antipreach pieces.
I personally do not adhere to all the points that you mentioned, but that is besides the point.
Regarding knowledge, Imam Shafie did a great disservice to the Umma by putting a straight-jacket on
the future interpreters of Quran, and that created massive damage to the community creating all the divisions and
problems that all the generations have gone through, but as justice said, his retribution is with Allah.
The question is how to move from the straight-jacket, because the sectarians are not wont to let go of any of it, they
love their misery, it is what they call in psychology "learned / acquired helplessness".
This debate for me is really a luxury, so long as important issues are not tackled.
What is more valuable to you, sanctity of life and honor or splitting hair regarding calendars, prayer times, and ceremonies?
Firstly, Monotheism needs to enter the heart, love of God needs to be absolute, then Truth will become manifest, and so answers will
start coming.
There are no worthy foundation anywhere for true Monotheism to emerge, so what you get is, well fitna, or worse, wrath of Allah...
I ask you sincerely, before you post here, do you ask for The God's guidance?
How is the presence of Allah in your life?
This is more important than everything else, this is how one starts, if your vessel (i.e, metaphorically your heart) is dirty, Allah will not touch it...
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 10:11:14 PM
Thank you for the valuable reminder of our Lord. May God forgive us for our mistakes.
Do you agree that discounting 1 moon cycle every 3 years is wisdom?
Do you agree that period of the moon cycle is 10 days sometimes and 29 in other times is wisdom?
Do you agree that The blind Man is not obligated to fast?
Do you agree that there are two Share Ramadan, one for the Northern and the other for the Southern Hampshire is wisdom?
These are some of the wisdom of the Proponents of this topic.
:)
Quote from: Q_student on September 24, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Peace Guest
You are just wasting your time. Look at this Quranic Principle .
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنْذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنْذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ (6) خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ [البقرة/6، 7]
Regards
I'm sure you've been told this before, but not all here are Arab literate.
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 24, 2009, 09:17:33 PM
You are forgetting that there was no month Rajab and no month called Ramadhan, etc. and no present order of the months prior to Umar or whoever made up the calendar. All these were invented sometime after the death of the prophet (who we don't know when he died). So everything that you are saying is just conjecture based on more conjecture.
Ayman, this is the infinite time I am telling you that your logic is faulty, faulty, faulty,???? and flawed, flawed, flawed,????????
You are forgetting that the oldest Quran we have dates back to year 651. This is an incomplete Quran because it is missing many chapters. Now, if we apply your faulty logic to this situation, the result is no Quran prior to year 651. Therefore, the Quran did not exist prior to year 651 and that the Quran we have today was fabricated by Uthman and other people whom you label as disbelievers. Thus, according to Ayman?s logic, Quran is just conjecture based on more conjecture.
Ayman, do you see how disgraceful your logic is? You should cover up you face completely when you go on the street.
Please stop your nonsense.
Quote from: guest on September 25, 2009, 08:36:06 AM
Peace,
... the Quran we have today was fabricated by Uthman and other people whom you label as disbelievers. ...
Uthman would have saved us a lot of angst if he left a trail (proof of concept) as to how he put the Quran together. I for one believe that the Quran was already put together by the Prophet in a finalised book form after the final revelation and well enough before his death.
Uthman might have gotten involved in binding that copy, or helping in the proof reading and checking for nasty additions, with reliable scribes, so as to make it checked and double checked by readers and finally fully approved as authentic.
But this does not explain the two versions Warsh and Hafs by the way...
I do not wish to comment about the other bit you accuse Ayman of, as for me, Uthman was indeed a companion of the Prophet as were Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali, Hamza and Zayd, as to where they come from, I believe from north western arabic peninsula (i.e close to Jerusalem, or even Petra), and for the timeline, it is all messed up, thanks to Mr Imam Shafie fitna, tempting people to produce hadith factories and links to the Prophet ...
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 09:39:09 PMAyman, are you fooling us or yourself...Where did I assume that prior to 638 AD the Prophet used the Lunar Calender? In order to be fair when evaluating your hypotheses, I ignored this fact, which I believe is true.
You assumed it but you are too much of a fool to understand your own silent assumptions. Again, the Umar calendar is made up and the months' names are meaningless and their order is arbitrary. So he or whoever could have called the period where "ramadhan" occured, Rajab, Safar, Dhu-Al-BelH :) or whatever. It doesn't matter they are just meaningless labels that have nothing to do with reality. Also, we don't know when the calendar was established 638CE, 640CE, 630CE, etc. All we know is that it certainly wasn't there in pre-Islamic times and when the messenger was there and the great reading was being revealed. Thus the great reading is completely oblivious to the so-called Islamic calendar.
Quote from: belH on September 24, 2009, 09:39:09 PMAgain, your argument violates the ultimate truth of 9:5. And as I said before, the wars that were ordered by God are not aggressions but to help other societies whom lived under oppression.
No you are just making baseless conjecture. How do you know how many months or YEARS passed between 9:5 and 9:81? You DON'T. You are just making up baseless conjectures as you go.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on September 25, 2009, 10:02:04 AM
All we know is that it certainly wasn't there in pre-Islamic times and when the messenger was there and the great reading was being revealed.
With this statement ?certainly wasn't there?, Ayman is raising himself to the status of God. Only the God is in a position to say such thing since He is all knowing. Ayman, you didn?t even witness the event, how can you be certain about it. You want to be God, right. That?s why you are trying to give us new Ramadan. Your attempt is futile.
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 25, 2009, 10:50:41 AMWith this statement ?certainly wasn't there?, Ayman is raising himself to the status of God. Only the God is in a position to say such thing since He is all knowing. Ayman, you didn?t even witness the event, how can you be certain about it. You want to be God, right. That?s why you are trying to give us new Ramadan. Your attempt is futile.
It is a certainty unless you can quote passages that say the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on:
1. O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
2. O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
3. O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
4. O believers ignore 9:5 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.
5. O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.
6. O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.
7. O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
8. O believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 25, 2009, 11:15:23 AM
Peace Guest,
It is a certainty unless you can quote passages that say the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on:
1. O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
2. O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
3. O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
4. O believers ignore 9:5 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.
5. O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.
6. O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.
7. O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
8. O believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.
Peace,
Ayman
You forgot chapter number.
Peace all,
That is what My Lord have created for the believers as a Month Clock...If this is not good enough for you, ask Ayman if his created Clock is better than this.
(http://theabysmal.fenris.ca/theAbyss/Revolute/Lunar/Lunation.png)
Ask yourself, what is God's Wisdom behind the above Cycle, is for you to ignore or to accurately calculate His Twelve Months.
I will be back soon.
Peace
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 25, 2009, 07:32:23 PMThat is what My Lord have created for the believers as a Month Clock...If this is not good enough for you, ask Ayman if his created Clock is better than this.
Take a good look at the image. It only has ONE shape that is the most obvious and only occurs ONCE during the cycle and on which there was NEVER any dispute on when it occurs. It is called the "shahr"/full-moon. It is also the ONLY shape that one can count 12 of in a solstice-to-solstice verse 17:12 solar year. Stop idolizing me by claiming that I created the full-moon. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2009, 02:00:17 PM
Peace Belal,
Take a good look at the image. It only has ONE shape that is the most obvious and only occurs ONCE during the cycle and on which there was NEVER any dispute on when it occurs. It is called the "shahr"/full-moon. It is also the ONLY shape that one can count 12 of in a solstice-to-solstice verse 17:12 solar year. Stop idolizing me by claiming that I created the full-moon. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
The is a sample of Ayman Calender System :yuck:
(http://www.fertilitymoon.com/images/lunar-moon-phase-calender-may-2008.gif)
You can read more about here:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://content.esotericteaching.org/jyotish/images/lunar_cycles.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.esotericteaching.org/jyotish/the-vedic-calendar&usg=__DUR6GDrnn2E6sSJDfWc0iwa5r7Y=&h=612&w=792&sz=94&hl=en&start=27&tbnid=Yvrxa6Nlz8D-NM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlunar-solar%2Bcalender%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D18
Is this how we should treat our prefect Month Clock by ignoring its precise Cycle, and instead, we pick one image--full moon, and ignore the rest?
Her is my advice to you: LOOK at the image below and do the following:
Ponder over the creation of the heavens and the earth and say: Our Lord you have not created this in vain, glory to You, spare us the retribution of the Fire(http://theabysmal.fenris.ca/theAbyss/Revolute/Lunar/Lunation.png)
Peace All,
WHO IS THE BIGGEST LOOSER.
Is he the one who steals ideas of others and then promoting it as his?
Ayman instead of promoting your proposed Calender as it is your idea, instead please call it THE VEDIC CALENDER...do not steal others ideas
At least, we did not do that, rather, we are fighting and promoting a 1400 years old calender that has not been changed since, and above all, does not violate the Quran.
Quote from: Rev.John on September 26, 2009, 03:39:48 PM
:offtopic: I'm sorry, I know this is off topic, but I cannot stop being amazed when I see these photos of the phases of the moon. So beautiful.
Then say:
Our Lord, you have not created this in vain, glory to You, spare us the retribution of the Fire
Peace
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2009, 02:00:17 PM
Stop idolizing me by claiming that I created the full-moon. :)
I had to laugh at this statement... :rotfl:
Peace
Dude learn to speak English.
I am tired of this...
loser not LOOSER (and stop shouting btw)...
we are
fighting and promoting a 1400 years old calender < --- how can you fight and promote something at the same time?
Get a grip, you might get a heart attack... :rotfl:
Quote from: belH on September 26, 2009, 03:43:30 PM
Peace All,
WHO IS THE BIGGEST LOOSER.
Is he the one who steals ideas of others and then promoting it as his?
Ayman instead of promoting your proposed Calender as it is your idea, instead please call it THE VEDIC CALENDER...do not steal others ideas
At least, we did not do that, rather, we are fighting and promoting a 1400 years old calender that has not been changed since, and above all, does not violate the Quran.
Quote from: theNabster on September 26, 2009, 05:44:20 PM
Peace
Dude learn to speak English.
I am tired of this...
loser not LOOSER (and stop shouting btw)...
we are fighting and promoting a 1400 years old calender < --- how can you fight and promote something at the same time?
Get a grip, you might get a heart attack... :rotfl:
Peace:
As far as Quran is concerned ,english does not matter but Classical Arabic does matter which neither you nor Ayman knows it.
Regards
Quote from: Q_student on September 26, 2009, 07:19:44 PM
Peace:
As far as Quran is concerned ,english does not matter but Classical Arabic does matter which neither you nor Ayman knows it.
Regards
I guess Classical Arabic is to Ayman and theNabster as English is to you. :laugh:
Peace Q_S
oki but how can i understand you if you do not express yourself properly, and you annoy me shouting using caps letters?
???
do you think shouting and putting on massive pretty gifs, some from idolatry websites (fertility moon for crying out loud!),
are going to convince me?!
until now, none of what your "group" put forward convinced me...
you are very rude and obnoxious, spoilt, and whoever disagrees with you in this thread you call an Ayman follower who is Satanic
and a Kafir...
you are not acting as muslims, believers, let alone dai's... so please go away...
Peace progressive
my arabic is ok, i just have not practiced it for donkey's years, but i can understand and read almost everything thrown at me, as I was fluent in my teens, and I am one of the rare ones who had the luck of learning sahraoui arabic in my formative years which is the closest you can get to the arabic written in the Quran...
Peace theNabster,
Quote from: theNabster on September 26, 2009, 07:40:01 PM
Peace progressive
my arabic is ok, i just have not practiced it for donkey's years, but i can understand and read almost everything thrown at me, as I was fluent in my teens, and I am one of the rare ones who had the luck of learning sahraoui arabic in my formative years which is the closest you can get to the arabic written in the Quran...
I just made a point based on QS' statement. I didnt really mean to say anything about your Arabic or Ayman's directly (since I didnt even know if what he said was true); rather, I wanted to make a point about QS' English.
peace progressive,
i was getting a little bit cranky...
apologies if i offended you...
salam
Noble
Quote from: progressive1993 on September 26, 2009, 07:45:49 PM
Peace theNabster,
I just made a point based on QS' statement. I didnt really mean to say anything about your Arabic or Ayman's directly (since I didnt even know if what he said was true); rather, I wanted to make a point about QS' English.
Quote from: theNabster on September 26, 2009, 07:52:58 PM
peace progressive,
i was getting a little bit cranky...
apologies if i offended you...
salam
Noble
No offense taken. I only clarified what I meant before in my last post. :peace:
Quote from: theNabster on September 26, 2009, 07:40:01 PM
Peace progressive
my arabic is ok, i just have not practiced it for donkey's years, but i can understand and read almost everything thrown at me, as I was fluent in my teens, and I am one of the rare ones who had the luck of learning sahraoui arabic in my formative years which is the closest you can get to the arabic written in the Quran...
Peace :
Knowing spoken of today does not mean necessarily you know the Classical arabic also. It is the reason Ayman does not know who to extract roots of words ,does not know the difference between Definite and Proper nouns , does not know that the Proper nouns cannot be translated ,does not know what the diptote is and consequently he cannot Recognise them.
Regards
Regards
Peace
Found this site www.karaite-korner.org and in it, it mentions that the Jews believe through their text of the following:
1. The beginning of months in the Biblical calendar according to the visibility of the Crescent New Moon
2. The beginning of years in the Biblical calendar according to the state of the barley crops (Abib) in the Land of Israel.
3. Ps 81,3 [Heb. 81,4] Blow on a horn for the Hodesh (New Moon)
On the Keseh (Full Moon) for the Day of our Hag (Feast)."
I don't know if this has relevance to the topic, specially as it is quotes outside the Quran and also its a site belonging to Karaism sect of Judaism. So it is open to scrutiny. However, I could not pass it by when I saw the simularities to begginning of month as being the visibility of the crescent new moon and also the begining of the year being linked to a particular event which happens according to the seasons. What I don't know is the actual time of the season these barley crops reach a certain state to start the count or finish the count of a year. It also mentions on the site of using a 13th month in a leap. I don't know if this is helpful but I thought I post it.
Peace
Hope
Peace
Rules of language come after language. There is no such a thing as classical arabic.
What you call classical is just a snapshot decided by academics in Al-Azhar or Al-Madinah.
The only thing i can tell you is if Allah promised that he will preserve the Quran, he will also
preserve the ability to understand it.
The arabic i learnt was from nomad tribe in the sahara which was pure arabic tongue, my grand parents and their
ancestors were arab tribes leaders.
Quote from: Q_student on September 26, 2009, 08:19:48 PM
Peace :
Knowing spoken of today does not mean necessarily you know the Classical arabic also. It is the reason Ayman does not know who to extract roots of words ,does not know the difference between Definite and Proper nouns , does not know that the Proper nouns cannot be translated ,does not know what the diptote is and consequently he cannot Recognise them.
Regards
Regards
Peace Hope
Thanks, this is very helpful.
Salam
Noble
Quote from: hope4 on September 26, 2009, 08:48:55 PM
Peace
Found this site www.karaite-korner.org and in it, it mentions that the Jews believe through their text of the following:
1. The beginning of months in the Biblical calendar according to the visibility of the Crescent New Moon
2. The beginning of years in the Biblical calendar according to the state of the barley crops (Abib) in the Land of Israel.
3. Ps 81,3 [Heb. 81,4] Blow on a horn for the Hodesh (New Moon)
On the Keseh (Full Moon) for the Day of our Hag (Feast)."
I don't know if this has relevance to the topic, specially as it is quotes outside the Quran and also its a site belonging to Karaism sect of Judaism. So it is open to scrutiny. However, I could not pass it by when I saw the simularities to begginning of month as being the visibility of the crescent new moon and also the begining of the year being linked to a particular event which happens according to the seasons. What I don't know is the actual time of the season these barley crops reach a certain state to start the count or finish the count of a year. It also mentions on the site of using a 13th month in a leap. I don't know if this is helpful but I thought I post it.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: theNabster on September 26, 2009, 08:56:48 PM
Peace
Rules of language come after language. There is no such a thing as classical arabic.
What you call classical is just a snapshot decided by academics in Al-Azhar or Al-Madinah.
The only thing i can tell you is if Allah promised that he will preserve the Quran, he will also
preserve the ability to understand it.
The arabic i learnt was from nomad tribe in the sahara which was pure arabic tongue, my grand parents and their
ancestors were arab tribes leaders.
Peace brother
Spoken language is always different from the literary language. Secondly language of one era is not exactly the same as that of another era. For example ,you will see a lot of difference between todays' english and the enlish of Shakspear's era.The same is true for MSA and Classical Arabic.
Regards
Quote from: theNabster on September 26, 2009, 08:56:48 PM
The only thing i can tell you is if Allah promised that he will preserve the Quran, he will also
preserve the ability to understand it.
Peace theNabster
I agree with your statement. I don't think and this is only my thoughts that God ment to preserve the Quranic language but the meaning. This is evident from the language changing over the years and writing styles.
Peace
Hope
Peace everyone,
Quote from: belH on September 26, 2009, 03:43:30 PMWHO IS THE BIGGEST LOOSER.
Is he the one who steals ideas of others and then promoting it as his?
Ayman instead of promoting your proposed Calender as it is your idea, instead please call it THE VEDIC CALENDER...do not steal others ideas
At least, we did not do that, rather, we are fighting and promoting a 1400 years old calender that has not been changed since, and above all, does not violate the Quran.
This is probably the most intellectually bankrupt argument since Farida's hilarious babble that I was a "secret agent". :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Q_student,
Quote from: Q_student on September 26, 2009, 07:19:44 PMAs far as Quran is concerned ,english does not matter but Classical Arabic does matter which neither you nor Ayman knows it.
If you knew Classical Arabic then you would have known that the language of the great reading is not Classical Arabic.
If you knew anything about any Arabic then you would have been able to read the
Alif that is occasionally found in the great reading at the end of Thamuda. In Egypt we have a fitting famous example for ignorant blind followers like you who can't even read an
Alif but are too arrogant to realize it:
لا يعرف الالف من كوز الذرة
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 26, 2009, 11:55:36 PM
Peace Q_student,
If you knew Classical Arabic then you would have known that the language of the great reading is not Classical Arabic.
If you knew anything about any Arabic then you would have been able to read the Alif that is occasionally found in the great reading at the end of Thamuda. In Egypt we have a fitting famous example for ignorant blind followers like you who can't even read an Alif but are too arrogant to realize it:
لا يعرف الالف من كوز الذرة
Peace,
Ayman
Egyptian...Interesting to know.
By the way, the below arabic words fit you more
لا يعرف الالف من كوز الذرة
Peace
this thread is getting too annoying for me, so I am off, good luck Ayman, and good work by the way, pity it falls on some
wet behind the ears teenagers (well if they are not they certainly act like toddlers).
One day we will know for sure if you were right, for now, muslims are just slaves on the earth, or donkeys who carry zero's...
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 27, 2009, 12:10:15 AMEgyptian...Interesting to know.
By the way, the below arabic words fit you more
لا يعرف الالف من كوز الذرة
Please read earlier in this thread the following post of Q_Student where he either lied and deliberately deleted an Alif from Thamuda in 25:38 or he is an ignorant who can't identify the Alif:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg203629#msg203629
For an ignorant person there is always hope that he might grow and learn one day but for someone who deliberately lies and deletes letters from the great reading, there is no hope. So what I said is actually a challenge for him to live up to his screen name and start to let the teacher of the great reading and not Classical Arabic grammarians teach him the real language of the great reading. On the other hand, all that you proved is that you haven?t read this entire thread carefully and instead of answering my questions you resort to mindless copy and paste argumentation by big fonts and calling people "losers" (which is less than childish since even well-raised kids don't do this) and you only further demonstrate that, like your avatar, your mouth is bigger than your logic.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Hope4,
Quote from: hope4 on September 26, 2009, 08:48:55 PMFound this site www.karaite-korner.org and in it, it mentions that the Jews believe through their text of the following:
1. The beginning of months in the Biblical calendar according to the visibility of the Crescent New Moon
2. The beginning of years in the Biblical calendar according to the state of the barley crops (Abib) in the Land of Israel.
3. Ps 81,3 [Heb. 81,4] Blow on a horn for the Hodesh (New Moon)
On the Keseh (Full Moon) for the Day of our Hag (Feast)."
I don't know if this has relevance to the topic, specially as it is quotes outside the Quran and also its a site belonging to Karaism sect of Judaism. So it is open to scrutiny. However, I could not pass it by when I saw the simularities to begginning of month as being the visibility of the crescent new moon and also the begining of the year being linked to a particular event which happens according to the seasons. What I don't know is the actual time of the season these barley crops reach a certain state to start the count or finish the count of a year. It also mentions on the site of using a 13th month in a leap. I don't know if this is helpful but I thought I post it.
Thank you for researching and sharing this interesting info. I agree that this info must be carefully scrutinized. We have to validate what the people of the book claim against what the great reading tells us. There is nothing in the great reading about blowing horns on the new moon and in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading. On the other hand, we are told in the great reading that "hagg"/feast is "ashhur ma'alumat" and we know that one of the meanings of "shahr" is "full-moon". The people of the book KNEW that the hagg/feast was on the full-moon. It is not a coincidence that the timing for the "hagg"/feast of the people of the book (Hag Sukkot) coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all,
To Ayman and Nabster (our Normand Imam), Did you follow my advise?
Did you LOOK at the image below and said "Our Lord you have not created this in vain, glory to You, spare us the retribution of the Fire"
(http://theabysmal.fenris.ca/theAbyss/Revolute/Lunar/Lunation.png)
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2009, 12:55:02 AM
start to let the teacher of the great reading and not Classical Arabic grammarians teach him the real language of the great reading.
Who gave you this title?
THIS IS MY LORD'S TITLE
55:1 The Merciful
55:2 He has taught the Reading.
Do you think you can claim Your Creator Title...Are you NUTS...You are a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER
Peace Nabeel,
Quote from: theNabster on September 27, 2009, 12:39:53 AMthis thread is getting too annoying for me, so I am off, good luck Ayman, and good work by the way, pity it falls on some
wet behind the ears teenagers (well if they are not they certainly act like toddlers).
One day we will know for sure if you were right, for now, muslims are just slaves on the earth, or donkeys who carry zero's...
Don't be saddened brother when we have the higher ground. Those who follow the sectarian timing know that it has no real basis in the great reading and they know that their timing is 100% arbitrary and manmade. So all they can do is try to drag us into the mud with them. As you said, one day we will know for sure but what we know for certain is that each one will go to the eternal destination where the path that he chose took him or her. As such, even if we were wrong about some things, it doesn't matter since we did our best to follow the god's map, the great reading. It is about the hard journey on the straight path and not succumbing to the temptation of disregarding the map and taking easy short cuts through traditions and "scholars".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 27, 2009, 01:25:31 AMWho gave you this title?
You just did. Once again, please stop idolizing me. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2009, 01:10:06 AM
Peace Hope4,
in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading.
Ayman, stop lying about Our Lord:
They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say: They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage. And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
2:189 يسءلونك عن الأهلة قل هي موقيت للناس والحج وليس البر بأن تأتوا البيوت من ظهورها ولكن البر من اتقى وأتوا البيوت من أبوبها واتقوا الله لعلكم تفلحون
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 27, 2009, 01:44:54 AMQuote from: aymanPeace Hope4,
in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading.
Ayman, stop lying about Our Lord:
They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say: They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage. And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
2:189 يسءلونك عن الأهلة قل هي موقيت للناس والحج وليس البر بأن تأتوا البيوت من ظهورها ولكن البر من اتقى وأتوا البيوت من أبوبها واتقوا الله لعلكم تفلحون
Please underline the word "new moon" in your translation above. Belal, a word of advice, if you are going to accuse people that they are lying and be obnoxious about everything that you say and use big fonts then you had better be 100% sure because you know that you will get called on it and if you turn out to be wrong as usual, then you would only be further exposing more loudly your inability to patiently read my posts and even less so your own posts and your lack of logic in responding. Please take this as a friendly advice. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2009, 02:26:42 AM
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belalAyman, stop lying about Our Lord:
They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say: They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage. And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
2:189 يسءلونك عن الأهلة قل هي موقيت للناس والحج وليس البر بأن تأتوا البيوت من ظهورها ولكن البر من اتقى وأتوا البيوت من أبوبها واتقوا الله لعلكم تفلحون
Please underline the word "new moon" in your translation above. Belal, a word of advice, if you are going to accuse people that they are lying and be obnoxious about everything that you say and use big fonts then you had better be 100% sure because you know that you will get called on it and if you turn out to be wrong as usual, then you would only be further exposing more loudly your inability to patiently read my posts and even less so your own posts and your lack of logic in responding. Please take this as a friendly advice. :)
Peace,
Ayman
He didnt use "new moon" in his translation..
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2009, 01:10:06 AM
Peace Hope4,
Thank you for researching and sharing this interesting info. I agree that this info must be carefully scrutinized. We have to validate what the people of the book claim against what the great reading tells us. There is nothing in the great reading about blowing horns on the new moon and in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading. On the other hand, we are told in the great reading that "hagg"/feast is "ashhur ma'alumat" and we know that one of the meanings of "shahr" is "full-moon". The people of the book KNEW that the hagg/feast was on the full-moon. It is not a coincidence that the timing for the "hagg"/feast of the people of the book (Hag Sukkot) coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Thank you for the explenation. Can I conclude from what I wrote earlier that the Jews used a luni-solar calander and not purely lunar one?
Peace
Hope
Peace,
Quote from: hope4 on September 27, 2009, 07:11:01 AM
Peace Ayman
Thank you for the explenation. Can I conclude from what I wrote earlier that the Jews used a luni-solar calander and not purely lunar one?
Peace
Hope
Depends which 'Jews' you are talking about.
http://www.submission.org/fasting-bible.html
Quote from: ayman on September 25, 2009, 11:15:23 AM
Peace Guest,
It is a certainty unless you can quote passages that say the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on:
1. O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
2. O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
3. O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
4. O believers ignore 9:5 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.
5. O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.
6. O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.
7. O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
8. O believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.
Peace,
Ayman
1.?O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.?
The starting point of a calendar is irreverent, illogical and pointless in counting number of years in lunar (or any) calendar system. This statement of yours demonstrates that you know NOTHING about calendar system. Yet, you are trying to establish new timing system. This is like using the testimony of a blind man for an eyewitness account. And this can only happen in Ayman?s system. Ayman is WRONG.
2. ?O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.?
Again, knowledgeable people will laugh at this statement of yours as this has no impact on counting number of years. You are making a fool of yourself. Only the ignorant will be with you.
3. ?O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.?
The order of the months has been established and used by Prophet Muhammad and remained intact. You did not produce any evidence to disprove this system. You are jealous of Prophet Muhammad and angry at God for not choosing you as a Prophet or a messenger. Please be thankful of what He gave you and do not cross bound set by the God. This is for your own good.
4. ?O believers ignore 9:5 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.?
Ayman is the one ignoring 9:5 by forcing Ramadan in the restricted month. Plus there is a one year gap between his restricted months when he cannot witness the full moon after summer solstice due to bad weather. This is how horrible his design is.
5. ?O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.?
Only an ignorant would ignore 2:189 and that would be your system. Your attempt to turn truth into falsehood will never successed. Performing Hajj in the month of Al-Hijjah is fully compliant with 2:189. The new moon is the marker and the Hajj is performed thereafter. 8th thru 13 are within the phases of the moon.
6. ?O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.?
Ayman is WRONG again. We use day and night to calculate lunar month. When we say moon is 8 day old, it means we have used solar days (includes night i.e. 24 hrs interval) to calculate moon?s age. Ayman is incapable of comprehending this simple fact.
Ayman?s timing system is 100% visual based which means calculation is prohibited thus violating 17:12 which allows for calculation based timing system.
Since there are at least THREE LONGEST DAYS (no clear marker), Ayman relies on madam the palm reader to determine which day to use as the marker. And since he has forbidden the calculation, he must witness the full moon. And if he cannot witness the full moon due to heavy cloud, he must wait a year to get back to his marker i.e. he incurs an error of 1 year. He has created a flawed system.
7. ?O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.?
Ayman is WRONG again. We are using the correct meaning of Ramadan. Whereas Ayman is twisting God?s words to support false theory.
8. ? believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.?
Ayman is the one who is ignoring 9:36. In his system there is no concept of months. He is defining June solstice to June solstice a year. Therefore, he has to fabricate months (unnatural) in violation of 9:36. Ayman is beating around the bush to prove his faulty point/logic. Therefore, only illogical people will follow his theory. As I said before there is no relation between month 1 and calculation of years. Ayman is desperate; he is throwing unintelligent questions at us to hide his falsehood.
Peace everyone,
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM1.?O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.?
The starting point of a calendar is irreverent, illogical and pointless in counting number of years in lunar (or any) calendar system. This statement of yours demonstrates that you know NOTHING about calendar system. Yet, you are trying to establish new timing system. This is like using the testimony of a blind man for an eyewitness account. And this can only happen in Ayman?s system. Ayman is WRONG.
When there is a switch from a Luni-solar calendar to a lunar calendar then the lunar calendar will depend on when the switch was made. This is due to the fact that the lunar calendar shifts by a month every three years. Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal. Only those who can't even count to 3 don't understand this.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM2. ?O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.?
Again, knowledgeable people will laugh at this statement of yours as this has no impact on counting number of years. You are making a fool of yourself. Only the ignorant will be with you.
Had month 1 been the actual supposed date of the Hijra then month 9 would be 3 months later and Guest would be fasting 3 months later. Guest is the only one not to know this indisputable fact.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM3. ?O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.?
The order of the months has been established and used by Prophet Muhammad and remained intact. You did not produce any evidence to disprove this system. You are jealous of Prophet Muhammad and angry at God for not choosing you as a Prophet or a messenger. Please be thankful of what He gave you and do not cross bound set by the God. This is for your own good.
Notice that Guest doesn't contest the fact that his present arbitrary timing is 100% dependent on the order of the months. Even the stupidest person can't dispute this fact. So now unlike the other points where he likes to play stupid, he is forced to shamelessly lie. Even Guest's moronic scholars don't make such a ridiculous and baseless claim about the prophet. Guest is a liar who has attributed the order of the months to the prophet without any authority from the god. On previous posts, he has admitted that he is not following the great reading but is following his "innermost thoughts" (another word for his "innermost desires"). As we saw, his outermost thoughts are soiled with stupidity and lies so we can be sure that things only get dirtier for his innermost desires.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM4. ?O believers ignore 9:5 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.?
Ayman is the one ignoring 9:5 by forcing Ramadan in the restricted month. Plus there is a one year gap between his restricted months when he cannot witness the full moon after summer solstice due to bad weather. This is how horrible his design is.
The question was about providing anything from the great reading to support the sectarian arbitrary timing of the restricted "months". The question was not about me. Obviously, Guest has nothing to support his falsehood that the arbitrary "Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab" are the "restricted months" and therefore as usual his satanic innermost thoughts tempt him to divert the issue with false idiotic babbling.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM5. ?O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.?
Only an ignorant would ignore 2:189 and that would be your system. Your attempt to turn truth into falsehood will never successed. Performing Hajj in the month of Al-Hijjah is fully compliant with 2:189. The new moon is the marker and the Hajj is performed thereafter. 8th thru 13 are within the phases of the moon.
Only people like Guest don't know that ALL days within any month are "within the phases of the moon" so it could be the xxth-xxth. So Guest has just called himself an ignorant because indeed he ignores 2:189. Guest listens to 2:189 saying that the crescents provide timing for the "hajj" but then his evil innermost thoughts change what he heard into "the new moon is the marker and the "hajj" is performed within any of the phases of the moon" (on the 8th there is no crescent but there is about half full and on the 13th there is no crescent either but the moons is about 95% full).
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM6. ?O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.?
Ayman is WRONG again. We use day and night to calculate lunar month. When we say moon is 8 day old, it means we have used solar days (includes night i.e. 24 hrs interval) to calculate moon?s age. Ayman is incapable of comprehending this simple fact.
Ayman?s timing system is 100% visual based which means calculation is prohibited thus violating 17:12 which allows for calculation based timing system.
Since there are at least THREE LONGEST DAYS (no clear marker), Ayman relies on madam the palm reader to determine which day to use as the marker. And since he has forbidden the calculation, he must witness the full moon. And if he cannot witness the full moon due to heavy cloud, he must wait a year to get back to his marker i.e. he incurs an error of 1 year. He has created a flawed system.
No one can use the day and night alone to calculate the lunar month. One cannot look at the day and night alone to know that the moon is 8 or any xx days old. This is an indisputable fact that only the dumbest don't know. Also, Guest's innermost thoughts are deluding him into changing 17:12 to say that it talks about calculating the moon's age in the lunar month when it clearly talks about calculating the number of years. Guest is also further demonstrating that he is a pathological liar. I never have "forbidden" the calculation for knowing the number of years or anything.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM7. ?O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.?
Ayman is WRONG again. We are using the correct meaning of Ramadan. Whereas Ayman is twisting God?s words to support false theory.
What is the meaning that Guest and his sectarian accomplices are using? As usual he is lying and this is why he doesn't dare to tell us this mysterious meaning. He knows that he is using it as a meaningless proper name of an arbitrary month.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 11:31:00 AM8. ? believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.?
Ayman is the one who is ignoring 9:36. In his system there is no concept of months. He is defining June solstice to June solstice a year. Therefore, he has to fabricate months (unnatural) in violation of 9:36. Ayman is beating around the bush to prove his faulty point/logic. Therefore, only illogical people will follow his theory. As I said before there is no relation between month 1 and calculation of years. Ayman is desperate; he is throwing unintelligent questions at us to hide his falsehood.
There is an inherent relation in the sectarian false calendar between month 1 and the present sectarian Ramadhan. Had month 1 been one month earlier then Ramadhan year 1 would have been 1 month earlier and so would be all the Ramadhans up to today. By merely recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names, sectarians are not counting 12 but they have not stopped counting since month 1 and this is why present day so-called Ramadhan is 100% tied to month 1. Guest is either a liar or too dumb to understand this simple indisputable fact (most likely both).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
So what it the best meaning for "ramadhan" according to you? A meaningless name of an arbitrary month? Or the circular and nonsensical "month of fast" so that when the god says "shahr ramadhan" he means "the month of the month of fast" according to your logic?
What month? You said "ramadhan" means the "month of fast" so "shahr ramadhan" according to you means "the month of the month of fast". Can't you provide even a half-decent answer that doesn't reduce 2:185 into nonsense?
No, that is your
distortion (building straw man) to justify a meaningless nonsensical full moon fantasy.
shahr ramadan ? "time" between two successive lunar phases.
falyasum
hu -- so he should fast
it (the month/Ramadan).
Prefer context/cross-reference for best meaning not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
2:185 clearly says "whoever amongst you xxxx should fast". Regardless of what xxxx means (vow or whatever other imaginary meanings you can make up), this implies that "those amongst you who don't xxxx are not oligated to fast". This is basic logic. You talk about strawman because you only see as far as your nose and fail to see the logical implications of your own interpretation.
No, believers who witness including the blind, those in cloudy weather or indoors after the sunset are obligated.
3:53 Rabbana amanna bima anzalta waittabaAAna alrrasoola faoktubna maAAa alshshahideena
Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
You are evading the question because you know that you have no answer.
Again, simply pretend you're on an island Nov 2, 2009 see the 100% full moon
before the sunset.
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Nov 2, 2009
Eastern Standard Time
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
17:04 3.0 67.1 1.00
17:05 3.1 67.3 1.00
17:06 3.3 67.4 1.00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
17:04 0.1 250.9
17:05 -0.0 251.1
17:06 -0.8 251.2
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
This has already been proven false. Why do you keep repeating false arguments? The things that are in 5:1-2 (honoring contracts, the livestock being made lawful, not hunting while restricted) clearly don't apply only around Mecca and only during "hajj". In fact, "hajj" is nowhere mentioned.
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?
I answered all your questions but so far you can't answer any of my questions.
Answering questions with rhetorical questions is not answering questions.
Clearly not global restriction (some animals give birth year round) nor hajj a feast to fast in...
2:196 fasiyamu thalathati ayyamin fee alhajji -- so fasting three days in the hajj
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
1. Your arbitrary "restricted months" are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7 and are not consecutive?
2. There is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on).
1. Then post where in Qur'an it says that the "restricted" months are
consecutive.2. Then post evidence that full moons were used/skipped, etc. in Islamic or any times in history or as waiting devices with meanings other than those from dictionaries written between the 13th - 19th centuries which also have Ramadan defined as a month.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
It is not a strawman unless you can disprove the following reality:
Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August:
Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).
Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August:
Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.
Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August:
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)
Again, all the above sources (Libya, Bosnia, Egypt, Saudi, India, Pakistan, etc.) that are independent from you and me didn't conspire with me against you just to prove you wrong. The above is the reality of what happened. What you are saying (that there is no dispute) is only in your wishful imagination.
No dispute when
I should start fasting; nor would it make a difference if I had to wear glasses or if it was too cloudy outside or if I was indoors or I forgot to go outside view the full moon like you suggest.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
When did you start your fast by the way?
23 August 2009 and have 10 days to make up due to travel and a bad cold.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
Again, you are biased and therefore looking at things from a biased point of view. Please post an independent source (like I did) showing that there was ever a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. If you can't then just be honest and admit it.
How can there be a dispute on a thing not used in history to time Ramadan. Post evidence.
Quote from: ayman on September 22, 2009, 01:28:44 PM
More importantly, just like guest, Belal and a billion sectarians, I am not surprised that you evade answering the most important question:
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
You clearly have ZERO answer.
Post my opinion of hajj other than the above about feasting and fasting which before I post prefer to look at the subject thoroughly; again your straw man opinion on my view. This thread is about timing of fast which I did look at and found ZERO evidence for the full moon. Open a thread on hajj, this one is all over the place.
Peace
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2009, 02:21:14 PM
When there is a switch from a Luni-solar calendar to a lunar calendar then the lunar calendar will depend on when the switch was made. This is due to the fact that the lunar calendar shifts by a month every three years. Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal. Only those who can't even count to 3 don't understand this.
In order to have an intelligent discussion with your opponent, you need to understand his view point clearly and then you can agree or disagree. You can provide rationale for the disagreement. Your response clearly indicates that you failed to understand my viewpoint which is so simple that even a baby can understand it. I gave one read to your theory and understood your view point. I think you have serious comprehension problem.
MY SYSTEM IS PURE. PURE, PURE,...... LUNAR SYSTEM. THEREFORE, I DON?T HAVE THE LUNI_SOLAR SWITCH OR THREE YEARS PROBLEM. I live in a pure lunar timing system. Why can't you get this simple, simple, simple,.......concept.
The switch problem and the three years problem arises with your nonsense Luni-solar calendar. That is not my timing system. Therefore, I do not have your problem. You have created that problem for yourself. You deal with your problematic system. PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE YOUR POLLUTED SYSTEM TO MY GOD GIVEN PURE LUNAR SYSTEM DESIGNED FOR RELIGIOUS RITES. Therefore, do not give me the nonsense talk like this ?Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal.?
For non-religious purpose one may look at the solar calendar but that will have nothing to do with the lunar religious calendar. The problem arises when a foolish person try to integrate to different closed loop timing systems into one synchronous system. Your system does not provide solution rather it creates problems.
This is mind boggling. Why would anyone listen to this guy. I guess I should say why would anyone with intelligence listen to this guy named Ayman.
I will provide answers to your other nonsense talk when I get to it.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PMNo, that is your distortion (building straw man) to justify a meaningless nonsensical full moon fantasy.
shahr ramadan ? "time" between two successive lunar phases.
falyasumhu -- so he should fast it (the month/Ramadan).
Prefer context/cross-reference for best meaning not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE.
What best meaning? You mean the meaning that you like and fits with your preconceived sectarian nonsense. You have imagined a baseless meaning. Your imaginary meaning that
"shahr ramadan" means "time" between two successive lunar phases is pure nonsense. If you disagree then please stop using fuzzy logic and tell us the following:
1. Which phases?
2. What "shahr" means?
3. What "ramadhan" means?
4. Put them together and tell us what they mean together according to your logic?
Unless you can truthfully and clearly answer then anyone with a little bit of logic who closely scrutinizes your statement will see that it is nothing but conveniently vague imaginary nonsense.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PMNo, believers who witness including the blind, those in cloudy weather or indoors after the sunset are obligated.
3:53 Rabbana amanna bima anzalta waittabaAAna alrrasoola faoktubna maAAa alshshahideena
Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing.
This has nothing to do with the timing. This has to do with your lack of understanding the logic of saying "whoever amongst you witnessed". It would equally apply to whatever vague "phases" you choose.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PMAnswering questions with rhetorical questions is not answering questions.
Clearly not global restriction (some animals give birth year round) nor hajj a feast to fast in...
2:196 fasiyamu thalathati ayyamin fee alhajji -- so fasting three days in the hajj
I will take this as a surrender on your part that you have no logic behind your useless hunting restriciton on a bunch of pagans walking half-naked wearing nothing but towels only in the vicinity of Mecca and only on the arbitrary 8th to 13th of Dhu-Alhijja.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PM1. Then post where in Qur'an it says that the "restricted" months are consecutive.
See 9:5 showing that they are clearly consecutive. If you contest that this is what 9:5 is implying then you will expose yourself.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PM2. Then post evidence that full moons were used/skipped, etc. in Islamic or any times in history or as waiting devices with meanings other than those from dictionaries written between the 13th - 19th centuries which also have Ramadan defined as a month.
Most people through out history had known HARVEST full-moons where harvest feasts/"hagg" took place. It is not my problem that you are the only one in the world who is ignorant of the very well known HARVEST MOON.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PMNo dispute when I should start fasting; nor would it make a difference if I had to wear glasses or if it was too cloudy outside or if I was indoors or I forgot to go outside view the full moon like you suggest.
23 August 2009 and have 10 days to make up due to travel and a bad cold.
You are still dreaming. Wake up to reality. Your start of the fast on 23 of August is different from the vast majority of Muslims. So there was a disupte as everyone except you knows. Your problem is not in your sight or glasses or clouds it is in your blind mind, which deludes you into escaping reality. According to calculations (independent of glasses or cloudy outside or whatever) the new moon crescent occured on August 20 and the fast should be August 21. So you are contradicting yourself. Why didn't you fast on 21 August and instead waited for the VISIBLE 2 days old crescent and didn't fast with the actual precisely calculated New Moon crescent?
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PMHow can there be a dispute on a thing not used in history to time Ramadan. Post evidence.
Typical fallacious nonsense asking for negative proof for a dispute that never existed. The full-moon was used for many things throughout history such as the harvest feasts. No one ever had a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. The burden of proof is on you to show that there was ever a dispute on when the full-moon occurs, not just between idiotic sectarians but amongst any people.
Quote from: NunHolidayPseudoEidRex on September 27, 2009, 07:12:20 PMPost my opinion of hajj other than the above about feasting and fasting which before I post prefer to look at the subject thoroughly; again your straw man opinion on my view. This thread is about timing of fast which I did look at and found ZERO evidence for the full moon. Open a thread on hajj, this one is all over the place.
In your arbitrary nonsensical timing nothing is connected and nothing makes sense so it is not surprising that you don't see a connection and therefore evade answering the question. You are not alone, no other defender of the sectarian timing on this thread was able to answer. I was hoping that you might be more intelligent than Guest or Belal. Instead you evade thereby unwillingly submitting to the fact that you have no answer. When cornered on specifics "staying on topic" suddenly becomes so important to a guy who posted irrelevant images such as a pile of skulls of the American Buffalo that have nothing to do with the fast or an irrelevant boring story about some guy on the beach. Come on Eid, you can be more intelligent than this, just try to answer as best as you can. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Guest,
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 08:58:34 PMIn order to have an intelligent discussion with your opponent, you need to understand his view point clearly and then you can agree or disagree. You can provide rationale for the disagreement. Your response clearly indicates that you failed to understand my viewpoint which is so simple that even a baby can understand it. I gave one read to your theory and understood your view point. I think you have serious comprehension problem.
MY SYSTEM IS PURE. PURE, PURE,...... LUNAR SYSTEM. THEREFORE, I DON?T HAVE THE LUNI_SOLAR SWITCH OR THREE YEARS PROBLEM. I live in a pure lunar timing system. Why can't you get this simple, simple, simple,.......concept.
You are delusional. The Islamic Calendar new era starts with a year 1 month 1 in the year 622CE. Prior to that it didn't exist and this is indisputable. If you disagree then tell us prior to 622CE which year you think it started in and what was its first month and the names of the months and their order and if it did exist prior to 622CE why was there a need to abolish it and start a new calendar in 622CE.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 08:58:34 PMThe switch problem and the three years problem arises with your nonsense Luni-solar calendar. That is not my timing system. Therefore, I do not have your problem. You have created that problem for yourself. You deal with your problematic system. PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE YOUR POLLUTED SYSTEM TO MY GOD GIVEN PURE LUNAR SYSTEM DESIGNED FOR RELIGIOUS RITES. Therefore, do not give me the nonsense talk like this ?Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal.?
There is no three or two or one or any number of years problem with the timing system based on the great reading. It gets automatically reset every year by counting exactly 12 full-moons in every verse 17:12 year. So each year is independent from the next and month 1 this year has nothing to do with month 1 last year or 1400 years ago. This is why the believers are able to follow the correct timing at any time regardless of what happened about 1400 years ago while you can't.
Quote from: guest on September 27, 2009, 08:58:34 PMFor non-religious purpose one may look at the solar calendar but that will have nothing to do with the lunar religious calendar. The problem arises when a foolish person try to integrate to different closed loop timing systems into one synchronous system. Your system does not provide solution rather it creates problems.
This is mind boggling. Why would anyone listen to this guy. I guess I should say why would anyone with intelligence listen to this guy named Ayman.
I will provide answers to your other nonsense talk when I get to it.
Ask Eid, belal and others mindlessly defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar to help you. I bet they can't answer either. You guys are so clueless that you can't even answer the simple quesiton about why your so-called Hajj happens on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and have to make up lame excuses like "this thread is about timing of fast".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Quote from Ayman: ?When there is a switch from a Luni-solar calendar to a lunar calendar then the lunar calendar will depend on when the switch was made. This is due to the fact that the lunar calendar shifts by a month every three years. Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal. Only those who can't even count to 3 don't understand this.?
I have already provided response to the above quote but I will reiterate the main points again.
1. Luni-solar calendar suffers from switch and a month shift every three year because it is designed by immature people like you.
2. Pure lunar calendar does not have the problem of Luni-Solar calendar. If you are in the lunar reference frame then you experience no shift at all. But adult people with immature brain will ignorantly try to evaluate lunar system while they are on the solar reference frame. This will earn you a BIG ZERO in physics class. And people wonder why Muslims are getting a bad rap.
3. Within lunar calendar days and nights are used for calculating lunar months (1-12). In addition, day and night is used to establish salat timing.
4. Only intelligent question that can be asked of lunar system is that it is not in synch with the seasons. The answer is so what, who cares (disbeliever will use this to divert ignorant people). The God connected religious rites to the moon cycle and day and night AND NOT THE SOLAR CALENDAR.
5. People who follow the solar calendar are doing the same thing as the people who do not worship God alone disregarding the fact that God commanded us to do so in the Quran.
Quote from Ayman: ?Had month 1 been the actual supposed date of the Hijra then month 9 would be 3 months later and Guest would be fasting 3 months later. Guest is the only one not to know this indisputable fact.?
Again, some foolish person keeps evaluating the lunar system from the luni-solar reference frame. This is the sign of mega senselessness. Fixing an initial point does not impact the counting or calculating the lunar month. For example ( for babies), let start a lunar calendar from 10th and 8th month and see if that changes timing of our religious rites e.g. Ramadan.
Islamic months (9 month is Ramadan):
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5
If I start count from the 10th month then my year looks like this:
10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
If I start count from the 8th month then my year looks like this:
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
As you can see I am performing Ramadan at the same time within the lunar calendar even after shifting the initial month. Start of the year does not change the Ramadan time.
Quote from Ayman: ??..Guest is a liar who has attributed the order of the months to the prophet without any authority from the god.?
Prophet Muhammad established God?s system on earth truthfully and firmly. He validated the order of the months while he was on earth for many years after he got job of Prophet. That is what we follow. You are trying very hard to destroy that system without any evidence.
Quote from Ayman: ?On previous posts, he has admitted that he is not following the great reading but is following his "innermost thoughts" (another word for his "innermost desires").?
My innermost thought tell me to accept Quran as the truth unlike your innermost thought which tell you to make fun of Quran and destroy it if possible
Quote from Ayman: ?The question was about providing anything from the great reading to support the sectarian arbitrary timing of the restricted "months". The question was not about me. Obviously, Guest has nothing to support his falsehood that the arbitrary "Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab" are the "restricted months" and therefore as usual his satanic innermost thoughts tempt him to divert the issue with false idiotic babbling.?
Look how Ayman is running like zebras. When I told him that Hajj was not the subject of this topic, he violently reacted by saying that it had everything to do with the full moon Ramadan theory. Now, that I exposed the truth about his system which has an error of at least one year, he is acting like a cry baby and saying the question is not about me. Guest is unfair to me. The truth is Ayman's system produces a gap of more than a year between the restricted months and he is asking us to accept his satanic teaching.
Quote from Ayman: ?Only people like Guest don't know that ALL days within any month are "within the phases of the moon" so it could be the xxth-xxth. So Guest has just called himself an ignorant because indeed he ignores 2:189.?
I gave you a lesson on phases of moon. See the below post from me to you. Instead of thanking me for the lesson you are calling me ignorant. What an unappreciative person you are.
Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #928 on: July 27, 2009, 01:55:57 PM
2:189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, ?They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj, it is ....
The moon?s phases are parts of 29.530 days. It provides finer counts within a month. It is the natural cycle of the moon that are to be used for counting time and not Ayman's deviated (man made) solar or lunar calendar.
Quote from Ayman: ?Guest listens to 2:189 saying that the crescents provide timing for the "hajj" but then his evil innermost thoughts change what he heard into "the new moon is the marker and the "hajj" is performed within any of the phases of the moon" (on the 8th there is no crescent but there is about half full and on the 13th there is no crescent either but the moons is about 95% full).?
Now that you agree 8th thru 13th is within the phases of the moon, you are in fact validating that the Hajj can be performed any time during the month of Dhu al-Hijjah. By the way your definition of crescent is 100% nonsense. Crescent does not happen on dying moon.
Quote from Ayman: ?No one can use the day and night alone to calculate the lunar month. One cannot look at the day and night alone to know that the moon is 8 or any xx days old. This is an indisputable fact that only the dumbest don't know. Also, Guest's innermost thoughts are deluding him into changing 17:12 to say that it talks about calculating the moon's age in the lunar month when it clearly talks about calculating the number of years. Guest is also further demonstrating that he is a pathological liar. I never have "forbidden" the calculation for knowing the number of years or anything.?
Only you (Ayman) cannot use day and night to calculate moon?s age. All sensible people are able to do the calculation. Yes, 17:12 tells us to count and calculate number of lunar years.
As for your statement ?I never have "forbidden" the calculation for knowing the number of years or anything.??
Yes you did. Just that you don?t know what you are talking about. Here is a quote from your initial post ?2:185 doesn't say "whoever was told by someone, who was told by a Mullah about "al-shahr"", it says "whoever witnessed "al-shahr"".? You are forcing to witness the al-shahr which means you are negating the calculation otherwise it will be a contradiction.
Quote from Ayman: ?There is an inherent relation in the sectarian false calendar between month 1 and the present sectarian Ramadhan. Had month 1 been one month earlier then Ramadhan year 1 would have been 1 month earlier and so would be all the Ramadhans up to today. By merely recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names, sectarians are not counting 12 but they have not stopped counting since month 1 and this is why present day so-called Ramadhan is 100% tied to month 1. Guest is either a liar or too dumb to understand this simple indisputable fact (most likely both).
This is your nonsense talk. Read the response under the second quote above. Opps, I forgot that you have serious comprehension problem. Ask a five year to read and explain it to you. He will even give you a balloon after the lesson.
Quote from: siki on September 24, 2009, 09:29:13 PM
:confused: My dilema in your case is that , "On one side you have the intellect to question the authenticity of the footage recorded on a disk, but then you blindly follow the scholar's passed on practices in the name of Islam , in gross violation of Quran ???
:'( I just cant understand above. :hypno: Will you help me out here , as to how you accomplish this?
:wow So you are zipping through this life with the help of innermost thoughts :tempt: only, and Quran has nothing to do with guidance in your case :hmm
siki
guest,
:hail Me too, waiting for a response from your side. :eat:
siki
Peace all
Is Allah more worthy of worship than the moon?
Why this fixation with the moon, guest?
If it were not for the reference of the pre-islamic (pagan and polytheistic of course) Moon-God, I would have some sympathy for you,
but there is too many blasphemous references attached to a pure lunar calendar.
Who is bigger the Sun or the Moon, who is more useful the Sun or the Moon, can you see the Moon without the Sun? but you can see the Sun without the Moon...
One revolution of the Sun gives you twelve Moons, this is basic indexing, mathematics, we learnt from it. A year is one revolution of the Sun. A Month is one revolution of the Moon. Neat, geometrically and mathematically symmetrical.
Within each Month you have phases of the Moon for the counting of smaller portions of the Month.
Within each Month too you have capability like shadows for counting smaller portions of the Days that each Month is divided too
using Sun Set and Sun Rise.
Both Sun and Moon are used, bun Sun is the super index, and Moon is the sub index.
And as the Quran said, you cannot mix the too, each index is independent of each other, the Sun revolves around the center of the Galaxy, and the Moon revolves around the center of the Earth, but you can build a Calendar for a relative observer on Earth, by first taking the bigger Object the Sun as the principal index, and then the Moon for the months as the second index, then the weeks as the fourth index and so on...
If you want to be dogmatic and pig headed stick to your pagan Moon God inspired lunar calendar...
Sorry I said will abandon this thread, but I saw these untruth being written, like since when did Allah said that there was to be a distinction between real life and Deen?, and all other nonsense, I could not resist posting...
Peace,
Quote from: siki on September 24, 2009, 09:29:13 PM
:confused: My dilema in your case is that , "On one side you have the intellect to question the authenticity of the footage recorded on a disk, but then you blindly follow the scholar's passed on practices in the name of Islam , in gross violation of Quran ???
I am not blindly following the scholar's passed on practices, you are blindly following the religious practice instituted by Ayman in violation of Quranic law. I follow the Quran and the Quranic laws as implemented by Prophet Muhammad. Which practice of mine is gross violation of Quran? The God has given me the understanding to distinguish between truth and falsehood. Thank you Lord the Great.
Quote from: siki on September 24, 2009, 09:29:13 PM
:wow So you are zipping through this life with the help of innermost thoughts :tempt: only, and Quran has nothing to do with guidance in your case :hmm
siki[/color]
Yes, the innermost thought is the key. Just like my innermost thought tells me to reject Ayman?s nonsense theory and your innermost thought tells you to accept Ayman?s nonsense theory. It?s that simple.
Unlike many peoples innermost thought, my innermost thought tells me to accept Quran as the guidance. That doesn?t mean I have to accept nonsense interpretation of the Quran. If you accept the fact that Quran is easy to understand then you will find many theories published on this forum to be false.
Peace Guest,
This representative extract from your post demonstrates exactly what Siki, myself and others have been trying to tell you:
Quote from: guest on September 28, 2009, 11:01:15 AMIf I start count from the 10th month then my year looks like this:
10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
If I start count from the 8th month then my year looks like this:
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
As you can see I am performing Ramadan at the same time within the lunar calendar even after shifting the initial month. Start of the year does not change the Ramadan time.
?
Start? the count means starting at 1 so in your two examples month 10 becomes month 1 and month 8 becomes month 1, respectively. So your example should look like this:
Islamic: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
Guest: 1----2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see that your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 6 (Jumada Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 12 (your Dhu Al-Hijja).
For your second example, it would look like this:
Islamic: 8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
Guest: 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So now your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 4 (Rabii Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 2 (your Safar).
This is all clear and easy for anyone to understand. There can be two explanations for why you can?t understand such basic facts and instead demonstrate such severe mental blockage:
1. You are in reality a 13 year old kid hiding behind a cyber ID.
2. You are a mature adult who is a hopeless blind follower of traditions and Mullahs and who suffers from delusions in form of a little cukoo in your head that you call ?innermost thoughts? and who is mildly retarded (probably also a little bit anti-social based on the above and your self-centered writing style).
If you are #2 then you fit the profile of someone who can be easily manipulated by Mullahs and the cukoo in your head to do some pretty bad things in return for getting 70 virgins so I sincerely hope that you are a 13 year old kid. In this case, my fatherly advice to you is to study and learn and not waste your time in participating in a forum like this one without first gaining some knowledge. When you come back in a few years you will appreciate what I am saying and you will thank me for this advice but for now there is no point in discussing with you.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
I think that the example that Guest brought illustrates a fairly simple and obvious issue with all manmade calendars:
Quote from: ayman on September 28, 2009, 05:15:01 PM?Start? the count means starting at 1 so in your two examples month 10 becomes month 1 and month 8 becomes month 1, respectively. So your example should look like this:
Islamic: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
Guest: 1----2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see that your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 6 (Jumada Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 12 (your Dhu Al-Hijja).
For your second example, it would look like this:
Islamic: 8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
Guest: 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So now your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 4 (Rabii Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 2 (your Safar).
The above would apply not only to the sectarian manmade calendar but also to any manmade calendar. For example, in the Gregorian calendar when February occurs also depends on manmade arbitrary decision about which month 1 the calendar started from. So had the Gregorian calendar been made to start a month later then January would be the present day February and February would be March and so on:
Gregorian: 2---3----4----5----6---7---8---9---10--11--12--1
Alternate: 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
The same also applies to the arbitrary order of the months. The arbitrary manmade order of the months determines when February occurs in the same exact way that the arbitrary manmade order of the months in the sectarian calendar determines when so-called Ramadan occurs. There is ZERO logic to the order of the months in the sectarian calendar in the same way that there is ZERO logic to the order of the months in the Gregorian calendar. This is why the god doesn?t use manmade calendars for timing but uses clear cosmic phenomena that are independent of arbitrary manmade decisions. This is the simple issue that some here such as Guest, Eid, Belal and perhaps others following this thread have been struggling to grasp. Once everyone grasps this simple reality then the rest is easy.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 27, 2009, 10:15:38 PM
Ask Eid, belal and others mindlessly defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar to help you. I bet they can't answer either. You guys are so clueless that you can't even answer the simple quesiton about why your so-called Hajj happens on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and have to make up lame excuses like "this thread is about timing of fast".
Peace all,
Ayman, are you experiencing what 19ers experiencing? Rashad Kalifa (Egyptian Man) build his theory on the assumption that Usman added two verses in chapter 9.
Now you (Egyptian Man) are building your theory on the assumption that Omer invented the Lunar Calender...will, both assumptions are not only non-Quranic, but 100% hadith in type. :yes Are you a hadith follower?
Will, Both theories equal ZERO because the two were based on a fabricated assumptions.
The answer to your Hajj Question, as per Quran, Hajj can be performed any time during the four restricted months...Are you happy now...does that would help in pulling you out of your misery.
Peace Belh,
Quote from: belH on September 29, 2009, 10:08:18 PMAyman, are you experiencing what 19ers experiencing? Rashad Kalifa (Egyptian Man) build his theory on the assumption that Usman added two verses in chapter 9.
Now you (Egyptian Man) are building your theory on the assumption that Omer invented the Lunar Calender...will, both assumptions are not only non-Quranic, but 100% hadith in type. :yes Are you a hadith follower?
Will, Both theories equal ZERO because the two were based on a fabricated assumptions.
It doesn't matter who invented your useless nonsensical calendar. It is a 100% manmade fabrication like the sectarian 8th-13th of Dhu Alhijja crap unless you can quote passages from the great reading that say the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on:
1. O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
2. O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
3. O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
4. O believers take the restricted "months" as Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab or WHATEVER (<= insert names of months here).
5. O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah or "any time during the four restricted months".
6. O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.
7. O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
8. O believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.Since of course you have ZERO answers, you just keep diverting the issue with ever more bankrupt arguments. First Farida brought up the secret agent argument and then you brought up the loser argument and now the Egyptian argument. So according to you guys, the reason the Islamic Calendar is correct is that I am a "Loser Egyptian Secret Agent". Obviously, you guys are a few chickpeas short of a Hummus. :)
Quote from: belH on September 29, 2009, 10:08:18 PMThe answer to your Hajj Question, as per Quran, Hajj can be performed any time during the four restricted months...Are you happy now...does that would help in pulling you out of your misery.
This "any time" violates 2:189 which clearly says that the crescents time the "hajj". Also, this doesn't change the fact that your "restricted months" are 100% arbitrary and manmade and thus depend on when some guy decided to start month 1 year 1 and decided the arbitrary order of the months. Please don't dream like guest and claim that this guy was the prophet unless you can quote passages from the great reading saying the 8 points above.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Let?s demonstrate your ignorance:
Quote from Ayman: ? .............
Islamic: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
Guest: 1----2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see that your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 6 (Jumada Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 12 (your Dhu Al-Hijja).?
Even a bird brain would know that your mapping (equating) of Islamic calendar to the newly designed offset calendar is wrong.
You should map (equate) existing calendar to the offset calendar (new) and not the other way around (like you did) because I am trying to demonstrate that changing of the initial mark (month 1) does not change the fasting month with respect to the calendar established by Prophet Muhammad. Your way of mapping defy commonsense and relational concept.
Therefore, month 9 = month 12 and NOT month 9 becomes month 6 i.e. you fast on month 12 in the offset calendar. And this preserves the original fasting period (Ramadan) and disproves your claim of dependency on month 1 of Islamic calendar. Remember you falsely accused Umar of changing Islamic calendar by moving the calendar 3 months beyond Hijra which according to you changed the fasting period. You, siki and others are boldly defending this false nonsense.
You have accused Umar of changing calendar established by Prophet Muhammad. I don't accept that. Even if he did, he would maintain the above mapping to preserve Ramadan and Hajj. You don't even have the knowledge to understand this simple fact. To an ignorant person like you this mapping will look like arbitrary ordering of months and the dependency of Ramadan on start date of a calendar. This is FALSE.
This is what the God had to say about people like Umar:
3:110 - You are the best community ever raised among the people: you advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and you believe in GOD. If the followers of the scripture believed, it would be better for them. Some of them do believe, but the majority of them are wicked.
And you are calling them morons and liars. You just proved yourself that you are an enemy of God. This community has shown so much progress in such a short time that out ranks any other civilization in the history of mankind. Their achievement is exemplarily. This community united all the tribes and work together to establish God?s system. Initially the Romans did not take them as a threat because they were so unorganized and uneducated. But because of their faith in God they became victor over the Romans and others within 50 years.
At some point this system started to fall apart. Do you know why? Because of people like you who started to twist God?s word to fit their desire. That?s why God warned us about people like you.
63:2 - Under the guise of their apparent faith, they repel the people from the path of GOD. Miserable indeed is what they do.
You can design another offset calendar from my offset calendar without compromising the original fasting period. Did you get it or do I have to show you the baby steps again?
Remember I told you to go to a five year old to understand what I am saying, had you done that you wouldn't have made fool of yourself again. I give you sincere advice, you should listen to it.
Quote from Ayman:
?This is all clear and easy for anyone to understand. There can be two explanations for why you can?t understand such basic facts and instead demonstrate such severe mental blockage:
1. You are in reality a 13 year old kid hiding behind a cyber ID.
2. You are a mature adult who is a hopeless blind follower of traditions and Mullahs and who suffers from delusions in form of a little cukoo in your head that you call ?innermost thoughts? and who is mildly retarded (probably also a little bit anti-social based on the above and your self-centered writing style).
If you are #2 then you fit the profile of someone who can be easily manipulated by Mullahs and the cukoo in your head to do some pretty bad things in return for getting 70 virgins so I sincerely hope that you are a 13 year old kid. In this case, my fatherly advice to you is to study and learn and not waste your time in participating in a forum like this one without first gaining some knowledge. When you come back in a few years you will appreciate what I am saying and you will thank me for this advice but for now there is no point in discussing with you.?
1. For sure, Ayman is not a 13 years old kid, just that his behavior is less than that of a 5 year old kid. He has demonstrated this via all his posts and in particular by equating month 9 to month 6. His goal is to mislead others. He is a disgrace to the society.
2. Your violent reaction to my post makes you a little cukoo bird yourself (so little IQ). You act like a bully and consistently cite hadith in you posts. Yet, you accuse others of following hadith. I think you and Bukhari are related or you accepted him as your friend. That's why you are bringing him up so frequently in you posts. This is an indication that you are obsessed with him. On one hand you say hadith is satanic and on the other hand you accept hadith of Umar changing calendar. And you call yourself a sane person. This is excessive hypocrisy.
Quote from Ayman: ?This representative extract from your post demonstrates exactly what Siki, myself and others have been trying to tell you:?
You are a misguided and a deviated person. You are a liar and a big one at that. If you and your foolish followers are trying to tell us what I showed then why you didn?t do the work and produced it as evidence in your article or posts. You had plenty of time between 2004 and now. The answer is: you don't have the brain to think properly nor write sensibly. As usual, you are trying to turn truth into falsehood. You may convince siki and others to follow your falsehood but not me or any other believers.
Quote from: ayman on September 29, 2009, 11:55:12 PM
1. O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
2. O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
3. O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
4. O believers take the restricted "months" as Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab or WHATEVER (<= insert names of months here).
5. O believers ignore 2:189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah or "any time during the four restricted months".
6. O believers ignore 17:12 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 17:12.
7. O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
8. O believers ignore 9:36 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.
Peace all,
Ayman, why should you be ashamed from being an Egyptian? :confused:
Any way, let me explain to you how God can empower us to name our calender months and how calculate.
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender:
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the year
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY Because we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
Now Relax for a minute and then
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY Because the Month in which the Quran was revealed is known to the prophet, then all the prophet had to do is to count 11 months after this month in order to reach the month in which the Quran was revealed
Anniversary .
Therefore, that is how he counted, "Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (One year from Ramadan ends), Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..........
DO YOU GET ITNow, is the prophet or even any of his believers empowered to use names (except of the name Ramadan) instead of numbers to keep track of the 12 moon cycles? Sure, they are because God did not give names to them. THUS, THE ARABIC CALENDER WAS CREATED USING ITS CURRENT NAMES.
:) Now Relax EGYPTIAN MAN, and think it over before replying.
Peace
Peace guest
your little sequence of number demo does not make sense (and I teach maths btw)...
you are very immature and unable to respond in proportion to a flame...
again everything you have been using to defend a lunar calendar does not convince me...
I cannot see a lunar calendar without a solar influence into it, the info will be contained at the point of start or reference,
plus at the 10 days regression each year. This is unavoidable, it has to do with 3D orbital geometry, there is no absolute co-ordinate,
the measure of time we are talking about for a year comes for one rotation of the earth around the sun, and as an observer on earth, relatively this looks like one revolution of the sun around the earth. So one year = distance the earth makes to move around the sun.
one day = time it takes for the earth to revolve around its axis.
if we wanted absolute co-ordinates, we will use the sun as centre of co-ordinates.
but since we are also using the Moon, it is easier to use the Earth as centre of co-ordinates, but you cannot remove the Sun from the equation.
The Sun allows us to count 365.25 days for one year.
We notice there are twelve full moons in one year.
Allah says that the number of months is 12.
Well carry on...
Umar took the advice of the scholars, some from bani israeel who converted to Islam, will we repeat his mistake? Or is Umar infallible? because he was a sahabi? are all sahab infallible?
if so, great, I am a descendant of Mohammed, I must be infallible, would you believe me?
Salam
Noble (pseudo)
Peace Belal,
Quote from: belH on September 30, 2009, 09:52:43 PMAyman, why should you be ashamed from being an Egyptian? :confused:
Any way, let me explain to you how God can empower us to name our calender months and how calculate.
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender:
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the year
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY
Because we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
Now Relax for a minute and then
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY
Because the Month in which the Quran was revealed is known to the prophet, then all the prophet had to do is to count 11 months after this month in order to reach the month in which the Quran was revealed Anniversary .
Therefore, that is how he counted, "Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (One year from Ramadan ends), Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..........
DO YOU GET IT
Now, is the prophet or even any of his believers empowered to use names (except of the name Ramadan) instead of numbers to keep track of the 12 moon cycles? Sure, they are because God did not give names to them. THUS, THE ARABIC CALENDER WAS CREATED USING ITS CURRENT NAMES.
:) Now Relax EGYPTIAN MAN, and think it over before replying.
I am relaxed. I am not the one holding a grudge against a specific nationality. :)
"Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (One year from Ramadan ends), Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..........So you admit that if this is the case then "ramadhan" would be the FIRST "month" (or first "full-moon") and not the 9th month. Thank you for admitting what I have been saying all along and confirming that the Islamic Calendar is messed up and the placing of your so-called Ramadhan as the 9th month is 100% arbitrary.
Hopefully, I am not increasing your level of frustration and hate for Egyptian men. :)
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 30, 2009, 11:46:51 PM
Peace Belal,
I am relaxed. I am not the one holding a grudge against a specific nationality. :)
"Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (One year from Ramadan ends), Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..........
So you admit that if this is the case then "ramadhan" would be the FIRST "month" (or first "full-moon") and not the 9th month. Thank you for admitting what I have been saying all along and confirming that the Islamic Calendar is messed up and the placing of your so-called Ramadhan as the 9th month is 100% arbitrary.
Hopefully, I am not increasing your level of frustration and hate for Egyptian men. :)
Peace,
Ayman
And say: ?The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.? We send down (stage by stage) in the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. (Surah Al Isra? 17:81-82)ME :whatever: :D
Peace Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on September 29, 2009, 04:19:54 PM
Peace everyone,
I think that the example that Guest brought illustrates a fairly simple and obvious issue with all manmade calendars:
The above would apply not only to the sectarian manmade calendar but also to any manmade calendar. For example, in the Gregorian calendar when February occurs also depends on manmade arbitrary decision about which month 1 the calendar started from. So had the Gregorian calendar been made to start a month later then January would be the present day February and February would be March and so on:
Gregorian: 2---3----4----5----6---7---8---9---10--11--12--1
Alternate: 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
The same also applies to the arbitrary order of the months. The arbitrary manmade order of the months determines when February occurs in the same exact way that the arbitrary manmade order of the months in the sectarian calendar determines when so-called Ramadan occurs. There is ZERO logic to the order of the months in the sectarian calendar in the same way that there is ZERO logic to the order of the months in the Gregorian calendar. This is why the god doesn?t use manmade calendars for timing but uses clear cosmic phenomena that are independent of arbitrary manmade decisions. This is the simple issue that some here such as Guest, Eid, Belal and perhaps others following this thread have been struggling to grasp. Once everyone grasps this simple reality then the rest is easy.
Peace,
Ayman
As usual, Ayman doesn?t know what he is talking about. He turns a simple matter into a complex and complicated thing. This is his nature. I will illustrate Ayman?s ill thinking using a simple concept that uses Prophet Muhammad as the reference point. Other prophets can be used just as well.
Arbitrary Months: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Pre Quranic)
Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Receive revelation)
Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Defines Calendar)
Prophet Muhammad has the authority to define the arbitrary pre-Quranic months into Islamic months/calendar. Thus, Prophet Muhammad establishes the Islamic calendar with 9 as the month of Ramadan because that?s when he received the revelation from the God. Henceforth, by definition the calendar cannot be called arbitrary anymore. Thus, the Islamic calendar has been canonized by Prophet Muhammad.
Now, guest wants to establish an Islamic calendar with new initial point (mark or month 1)
Islamic Calendar: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6----7----8----9
Guest Calendar: 1---2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
As a God fearing person, I would have to maintain synch with Prophet Muhammad defined month of Ramadan. Therefore, in Guest calendar, Ramadan is performed in the month 12. This way I have a different calendar, yet fasting in the same physical timeframe, even though Guest month is 12 and Islamic month is 9. Similarly, I can move the initial point to any point in time without compromising the calendar defined by Prophet Muhammad.
This is so simple, yet, Ayman doesn?t get it.
22:3 - Among the people, there are those who argue about GOD without knowledge, and follow every rebellious devil.
22:4 - It is decreed that anyone who allies himself with him, he will mislead him and guide him to the agony of Hell.
Quote from: afridi220 on October 01, 2009, 07:53:57 AMAnd say: ?The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.? We send down (stage by stage) in the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. (Surah Al Isra? 17:81-82)
Indeed.
Quote from: guest on October 01, 2009, 11:25:07 AM
Now, guest wants to establish an Islamic calendar with new initial point (mark or month 1)
Islamic Calendar: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6----7----8----9
Guest Calendar: 1---2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
Peace all,
Good and simple illustration, may God reward you for your efforts.
Quote from: ayman on September 30, 2009, 11:46:51 PM
"Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (One year from Ramadan ends), Ramadan, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..........
So you admit that if this is the case then "ramadhan" would be the FIRST "month" (or first "full-moon") and not the 9th month. Thank you for admitting what I have been saying all along and confirming that the Islamic Calendar is messed up and the placing of your so-called Ramadhan as the 9th month is 100% arbitrary.
I hope Guest illustration is enough to fix your logic...otherwise, you are experiencing "LACK OF INTELLIGENT" .
Now, I take it that you agree with my other points:
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender:
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the year
Because we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
Ayman, Stop acting like the 19ers...Follow the Quran well-established guides, and stop twisting the Non-well-established meanings to cancel out the Well-Established Ones:
It is well-established that the Year Has 12 Months
It is well-established to use the Moon and the sun to calculate our timings, Year, Day, and Month.
Otherwise, 3-7 speaks about you.
Peace
To the Moon calendar fanatics, consider and ponder on this ayaht:
40:57 The creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed greater than the creation of mankind, yet most of
mankind know not.
Ahl al Sunnah, why are you insulting Mohammed?
Quote from: theNabster on October 01, 2009, 07:24:30 PM
40:57 The creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed greater than the creation of mankind, yet most of
mankind know not.
2:285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers: We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers; and they said: We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny.
2:286 God does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns. Our Lord, do not mind us if we forget or make mistakes; our Lord, do not place a burden upon us as You have placed upon those before us; our Lord, do not place upon us what we cannot bear; pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; You are our patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people.
Quote from: belH on September 30, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
:) Now Relax EGYPTIAN MAN, and think it over before replying.
Peace
Belh
This is probably, the silliest and most idiotic sentence that I ever read in this forum.
siki
Salam Bilal,
Quote from: belH on September 30, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Peace all,
Ayman, why should you be ashamed from being an Egyptian? :confused:
...........................
:) Now Relax EGYPTIAN MAN, and think it over before replying.
Peace
Since When Nationality or race has to do with one's belief ?
I'm happy you didn't ask for our skin color too :bravo:
What do you think about the moroccans, the pakistanis, the australians? I want to know....
I think every reader now would give you no more credibility, if he already gave you any btw...
brain sickness have no nationality, you should know it...think it over before replying ;D
Salam
Quote from: quickduck on October 02, 2009, 05:25:03 PM
Salam Bilal,
Since When Nationality or race has to do with one's belief ?
I'm happy you didn't ask for our skin color too :bravo:
What do you think about the moroccans, the pakistanis, the australians? I want to know....
I think every reader now would give you no more credibility, if he already gave you any btw...
brain sickness have no nationality, you should know it...think it over before replying ;D
Salam
:rotfl:
Duck, where did I say that Egypt produces Fake prophets (or sects leaders) except for Rashad Kalifa and Ayman...Did I say that because Ayman is from Egypt, then he is Fake, or did I say Ayman, the Egyptian Man, is Fake as Rashad Kalifa, the Egyptian Man.
;)
Peace belH,
May the verses you sent guide us all to what Allah wishes.
These verses are very important and again emphasize that we need to focus on the Quran as a basis for our understanding. Now if you combine that with the verse of my signature, the environment needs to be studied, and with other verses Allah urges to study our environment, together as what is within ourselves, and then verify for ourselves, by any means at our disposal, that indeed what is said in the Quran is indeed the Truth.
This is supposed to be ongoing, it has not stopped with Imam Shafie, or Ibn Taimia, Hassan Al Banna, Syed Qutb or Muhamed Abdu (to cite Arab "reformers").
I would think that after a long period of stagnation, it is overdue to look into every single thing that deals with the faith, and verify everything as far back as the first schisms in Islam happened.
Allah is very patient, but He has a plan, and no one can stop His plan, so if we are not worthy, He will destroy us and find others more worthy to carry His plan.
There are already people who have the correct attitude, but not the correct belief, they are misled by the "muslims" themselves (which is a crime against Allah) because they present to them a bad image of Islam.
Read this for instance, this is a beautiful example of someone who should have been a Muslim doing his job of working to unravel the secrets of God's creation, and in the process finding something useful to help mankind. Now when he succeeds, how many "muslims" will be saved by his efforts. And how many "muslims" will also be punished because he was not exposed to the true message of Islam?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6859344.ece
In the same way Mr Ayman is making an effort to understand the Quran, I was easily convinced from the start by him because I was not brought up by a sectarian (my father was a muslim), and because I strongly believe that Allah gave us logic, geometry and understanding of patterns (mathematics) to make pronouncements, and if you look at the way the {Allah,[Galaxy, Sun, Earth, Moon, Man]} are related to one another, you will use a luni-solar calendar as it takes into account of all the parameters that Allah describes in the Quran...
You can look at it as an opinion, or you can be honest and dig deep in your heart and find out who are you doing it for (clinging to a pure Moon calendar), just ask Allah, without anticipating your correct answer...
it might take some time, after all it took me seven to ten years to get out of the sunni hell hole...
Quote from: belH on October 01, 2009, 08:45:01 PM
2:285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers: We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers; and they said: We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny.
2:286 God does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns. Our Lord, do not mind us if we forget or make mistakes; our Lord, do not place a burden upon us as You have placed upon those before us; our Lord, do not place upon us what we cannot bear; pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; You are our patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people.
Quote from: theNabster on October 02, 2009, 09:08:53 PM
Peace belH,
May the verses you sent guide us all to what Allah wishes.
These verses are very important and again emphasize that we need to focus on the Quran as a basis for our understanding. Now if you combine that with the verse of my signature, the environment needs to be studied, and with other verses Allah urges to study our environment, together as what is within ourselves, and then verify for ourselves, by any means at our disposal, that indeed what is said in the Quran is indeed the Truth.
This is supposed to be ongoing, it has not stopped with Imam Shafie, or Ibn Taimia, Hassan Al Banna, Syed Qutb or Muhamed Abdu (to cite Arab "reformers").
I would think that after a long period of stagnation, it is overdue to look into every single thing that deals with the faith, and verify everything as far back as the first schisms in Islam happened.
Allah is very patient, but He has a plan, and no one can stop His plan, so if we are not worthy, He will destroy us and find others more worthy to carry His plan.
There are already people who have the correct attitude, but not the correct belief, they are misled by the "muslims" themselves (which is a crime against Allah) because they present to them a bad image of Islam.
Read this for instance, this is a beautiful example of someone who should have been a Muslim doing his job of working to unravel the secrets of God's creation, and in the process finding something useful to help mankind. Now when he succeeds, how many "muslims" will be saved by his efforts. And how many "muslims" will also be punished because he was not exposed to the true message of Islam?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6859344.ece
In the same way Mr Ayman is making an effort to understand the Quran, I was easily convinced from the start by him because I was not brought up by a sectarian (my father was a muslim), and because I strongly believe that Allah gave us logic, geometry and understanding of patterns (mathematics) to make pronouncements, and if you look at the way the {Allah,[Galaxy, Sun, Earth, Moon, Man]} are related to one another, you will use a luni-solar calendar as it takes into account of all the parameters that Allah describes in the Quran...
You can look at it as an opinion, or you can be honest and dig deep in your heart and find out who are you doing it for (clinging to a pure Moon calendar), just ask Allah, without anticipating your correct answer...
it might take some time, after all it took me seven to ten years to get out of the sunni hell hole...
If you want to provide a constructive argument, please answer to this:
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender:
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the year
Because we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
:)
Quote from: belH on October 03, 2009, 12:30:23 AM
If you want to provide a constructive argument, please answer to this:
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender:
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the year
Because we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
:)
Prohphet(pbuh) understood this and had correct system. God would ensure that he understood correctly, if he did not , HE guided him, The system got corrupted gradually after his death, but we have the system preserved in the great reading , we have to take clues and info from Quran and then use our God given ability of logic and reason, to restore what God originally intended it to be. We must not let our brain logic be over ridden by corrupted baggage that we have been carrying along since our childhood.
We should use sun for day, and years, and as these are two units far apart, we need to split the bigger unit (year) into smaller units taking help of the moon. As the moon has different geometry/orbit , not in sync with sun, so it cannot split the bigger unit into accurate exact units. So God does not make this unit as a month because of inherent inaccuracy , but tell us to take help from a marker to split it into approximate units for keeping count. Also, the different shapes give us some idea where we are in that period (man made month)
Month is not quranic, nor is week hour, minute or second.
Main question is what to use for a year? and it looks like you are getting on track. Year is solar, because the life on earth is being governed by sun, not by moon.
Moon is just a help to split the bigger unit into intermediate count.siki
Quote from: siki on October 03, 2009, 12:56:11 AM
Prohphet(pbuh) understood this and had correct system. God would ensure that he understood correctly, if he did not , HE guided him, The system got corrupted gradually after his death, but we have the system preserved in the great reading , we have to take clues and info from Quran and then use our God given ability of logic and reason, to restore what God originally intended it to be. We must not let our brain logic be over ridden by corrupted baggage that we have been carrying along since our childhood.
We should use sun for day, and years, and as these are two units far apart, we need to split the bigger unit (year) into smaller units taking help of the moon. As the moon has different geometry/orbit , not in sync with sun, so it cannot split the bigger unit into accurate exact units. So God does not make this unit as a month because of inherent inaccuracy , but tell us to take help from a marker to split it into approximate units for keeping count. Also, the different shapes give us some idea where we are in that period (man made month)
Month is not quranic, nor is week hour, minute or second.
Main question is what to use for a year? and it looks like you are getting on track. Year is solar, because the life on earth is being governed by sun, not by moon. Moon is just a help to split the bigger unit into intermediate count.
siki
Let no one underestimate The Lord; There is no inaccuracy in our Lord's created System, rather, it is in the Humans' logic, which when failing to grasp the wisdom of the system, they call it inherent Inaccuracy.
The Bigger, the year, should be split into 12 Moon Cycles, as per our Lord Instruction.
Peace,
Quote from: belH on October 03, 2009, 01:42:31 AM
Let no one underestimate The Lord; There is no inaccuracy in our Lord's created System, rather, it is in Humans Brain which when failing to grasp the wisdom of the system, they call it inherent Inaccuracy.
The Bigger, the year, should be split into 12 Moon Cycles, as per our Lord Instruction.
Peace,
Peace
exactly, you need to have something to split first,
the thing to split is the solar year...
think, use this amazing one kilo computer between the ears that the Almighty Allah has given you.
and the Moon helps you do the splitting (counting / segmenting) exactly like cutting a dessert pie...
Quote from: belH on October 03, 2009, 01:42:31 AM
Let no one underestimate The Lord; There is no inaccuracy in our Lord's created System, rather, it is in Humans Brain which when failing to grasp the wisdom of the system, they call it inherent Inaccuracy.
The Bigger, the year, should be split into 12 Moon Cycles, as per our Lord Instruction.
Peace,
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period.
I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system. And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
Salam siki,
Quote from: siki on October 03, 2009, 02:03:28 AM
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
Well written, but it's still too complicated for them to get it. Try to make it more simple. O0
Quote from: siki on October 03, 2009, 02:03:28 AM
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
do you mean that the thirteenth Moon is the inherent Inaccuracy? thus, we should ignore it...Thus what would you call this Moon, would you call it "God's System Inherent Inaccuracy"? or to be more polite, GSII Moon?
Quote from: siki on October 03, 2009, 02:03:28 AM
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
Show me where in the Quran that God says the Year Should be calculated by using the Gorginian Calender or any other similar Calender?
Quote from: theNabster on October 03, 2009, 01:57:40 AM
Peace
exactly, you need to have something to split first, the thing to split is the solar year...
You need a WELL-ESTABLISHED proof from Quran, about the above assumption, before proceeding with your argument.
Peace belH
it is ok, I am not a patient man, but here goes, i will ask you this question:
"imagine you only have a pure lunar calendar, how if the need arises would you point to a month that is contained in one season, like winter or autumn, spring or summer?"
take your time...
also surely the Quran does talk about the seasons, so you cannot say it is not Quranic...
Salam
Noble
Quote from: belH on October 03, 2009, 12:05:22 PM
You need a WELL-ESTABLISHED proof from Quran, about the above assumption, before proceeding with your argument.
Quote from: theNabster on October 03, 2009, 01:45:25 PM
Peace belH
it is ok, I am not a patient man, but here goes, i will ask you this question:
"imagine you only have a pure lunar calendar, how if the need arises would you point to a month that is contained in one season, like winter or autumn, spring or summer?"
take your time...
also surely the Quran does talk about the seasons, so you cannot say it is not Quranic...
Salam
Noble
The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Now, are you going to argue about Ramadan = Scorching Heat? ...Please do not.
Well peace brother belh, how you been? Long time no hear. Im just speaking. :peace:
O.k. now, peace all,
:jedi: The Lord said:
" For like 1400 yrs you have gone without eating during the 9th month. But did you do it for Me? And when you eat, isnt it for your own enjoyment? My message today is the same one I commanded the earlier prophets to tell Juruslim and its villiges when they were prosperous. As well as the others, when they were filled with people. So, once again,I, the Lord All-Powerful, tell you: " See that justice is done, be kind and merciful to one another, and stop making plans to hurt each other."
When you worship Me by going without eating, it should become a time of celebration.
:peace:
Peace belH
The implications of what you are saying are that you want a lunar calendar for religious rites, and another calendar for seasonal functional affairs.
So how about the interpretation of Joseph's that he made of the king's dream, did he make it using a lunar calendar (religious) so that each year is about 354 days, or the solar calendar in which each year is exactly 365.25 days?
Do you really believe that Allah wants us to divide or separate Deen from our daily life?
this is what most of the modern people say, this is why there is not much morals left in the world, apply God's law in the kannisat (church),
and man's laws outside are separate.
I guess this is how it all started, with the help of the son of Abu Sufyan, Muawyah who sure wanted to get back the rich idolatrous Quraish centre stage.
Allah in the Mosque, Rulers in the Land...
I also do not dispute that the Moon purpose is to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan and four restricted months, but you cannot isolate it from how it is used, without the Sun radiance, the Moon is useless, it is the Sun's radiance that gives the crescents which we then use to count the portions of solar year that elapse. Allah has told us to fix that as twelve portions, twelve segments, it is simple mathematics, Allah is aware that people of that time had some knowledge of mathematics.
The reason you cannot use a pure lunar system is because it is a relative system that lacks information, it cannot tell you when you are, you need a point of reference, and a rule of concordance or conversion with the absolute co-ordinate which is the solar one.
Otherwise why does Allah painstakingly talks about the orbiting of the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon and their place in His creation?
You cannot separate the link between the three.
Salam
Noble
PS Quran never encourage muslims to go to war only when necessary in self defense btw...
ponder this: lunar or luni-solar?
106:0 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
106:1 This should be cherished by Quraysh.
106:2 The way they cherish the journey of the winter and summer.
106:3 So let them serve the Lord of this Dwelling.
106:4 The One who fed them from hunger, and protected them from fear.Quote from: belH on October 03, 2009, 02:28:47 PM
The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Now, are you going to argue about Ramadan = Scorching Heat? ...Please do not.
Quote from: belH on October 03, 2009, 02:28:47 PM
The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Can you only imagine people gathering for feast in the winter ? Even Woodstock Festival takes place at summer :rotfl: :yay:
Peace all
Quote from: anthonywallace on October 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
Well peace brother belh, how you been? Long time no hear. Im just speaking. :peace:
Peace Brother,
well, it is always good to hear from you...may God increase your wisdom and reward you for your correct efforts, and forgive you and keep you away from the wrong ones.
Quote from: theNabster on October 03, 2009, 04:48:41 PM
Peace belH
The implications of what you are saying are that you want a lunar calendar for religious rites, and another calendar for seasonal functional affairs.
Peace,
I believe so; however, I do not fully understand the wisdom of our Lord about this, due to my limited logic (I'm a Human), that only can increase by God's will...all I can say for now, I HEAR and I OBEY.
Peace
Peace belH
but there is nothing solid in the Quran to validate a pure lunar calendar, it is only based on hadith and past pagan practices of arab tribes, you also need a start date as a reference to keep the seasons in check, otherwise it will be floating, and a conversion factor to go from lunar to solar. - are you comfortable with this? because I am not.
The solar calendar on its own keeps track of the seasons without anything else.
Because a calendar's prime objective as the Quran states is counting, so the counting has to be related to real and useful events, and the seasons are important events for life on the planet-
the crescent Moons come second. this is not even logic, this is mathematics, geometry and numbers ratio counting.
Let me give you an example though of the fallacy in logic, we think we are uniting the Ummah by using a pure lunar calendar, but let us take two geo points Paris and Sydney.
1st when it is day in Paris, it is night in Sydney - so where is the unity?
2nd the lunar reference point taken to start calendar in Sydney is different from the one taken to start calendar
in Paris (or Jerusalem) - this is where the flaw in logic is, they do not have the same pure lunar calendars to start with because
a pure lunar calendar does not exist, and needs a time reference point to start from, the one in Paris could be in the Autumn, and the one in Sydney would be in the Spring...
3rd So in fact there is not one lunar calendar but many depending where you are in the world, so it is not accurate, it depends on your geographical position on the planet, and so cannot be relied upon for counting...
A solar calendar is the best one useful for counting days and years and by the use of mathematics and number ratios portions of the year, like seasons, equinox, solstice...
using the moon, or juxtaposing the moon then comes as handy for keeping track of religious rituals...
However as I said before, only an authority will implement such matters, in this forum we are only discussing...
Peace,
Quote from: siki on October 03, 2009, 02:03:28 AM
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
??. for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days??
The above statement does not make sense at all. An earth bound object or a person coming from outer space will see different period depending on the characteristics of its reference frame (speed, other motion, etc.). The 29.53xxx days moon cycle is seen by an observer on the earth and NOT an earth bound observer. Please ignore what siki and Ayman is saying on this forum! They are misleading!
?And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year
as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.?
And where did the God say to ignore the 13th moon? Oh, I get it, you and your follower have another quran where you find anything you desire. On one hand you are saying to follow God on the other hand you are saying to follow you. What a convoluted logic. By the way, did you realize that you became the god when you told us to ignore the 13th moon (new law). You are really a poor magician at best since you could not even make the unwanted moon disappear for us. Your scheming is vey wicked one but easily foiled by the God fearing people.
The 13th moon problem invalidates your concept. If you only knew.
Peace,
Quote from: quickduck on October 03, 2009, 06:12:57 AM
Salam siki,
Quote from: siki on October 03, 2009, 07:03:28 AM
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
Well written, but it's still too complicated for them to get it. Try to make it more simple.
Please don't forget to tell us how you manage to vanish the 13th moon. Also, do tell us how you connect the days to "orbit of earth around sun" and verse 17:12. I will give you a hint: - night and day is not caused by earth's orbit around the sun; 17:12 talks about night and day among other things. Therefore, how do you connect day to earth's orbit aroundthe sun? Where in 17:12 YOU FIND EARTH GOING AROUND THE SUN?
And some one calls this ill written statement a well written statement. No wonder why the muslims are getting bad name.
Peace
Well it eluded me to write this that the day and night depend on the rotation of the earth around its axis, i do not remember if i wrote it in a previous post, but of course that again shows that both the earth and sun relative motion are needed in the interaction for the build-up of a useful calendar, so what is your damage guest?
As for your mourning for your vanishing 13th moon, you indomitable moon lover (i am sorry to say), where in the Quran does it say that you will not be allowed to do so?
The commandment is to build up a useful viable natural cosmic calendar that takes into account of (i.e. does not violate) the physical laws of Allah and at the same time responds to the call that there are twelve months in it.
A pure lunar calendar violates seasonal laws, and is useless for counting or predicting cosmic outcomes without converting back to its centre of reference absolute co-ordinates, and its starting point, which was Jerusalem (or Madina)...
wake up dude
:welcome:
Quote from: guest on October 05, 2009, 09:18:30 AM
Peace,
Please don't forget to tell us how you manage to vanish the 13th moon. Also, do tell us how you connect the days to "orbit of earth around sun" and verse 17:12. I will give you a hint: - night and day is not caused by earth's orbit around the sun; 17:12 talks about night and day among other things. Therefore, how do you connect day to earth's orbit aroundthe sun? Where in 17:12 YOU FIND EARTH GOING AROUND THE SUN?
And some one calls this ill written statement a well written statement. No wonder why the muslims are getting bad name.
Peace Ayman and all,
Just because Muhammad migrated in the moon/month named rabi alawaal ( or adhar using lunar calender), dont mean rabi alwaal or adhar has to be called moon number 1, because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st, which, the first moon is named kaanuun ath-thaaniyy or MuHarram using Islamic calender. The months would be arbitary if rabi alawaal (or adhar) was made to be month number 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right.
The months on the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months correlate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The order of Islamic months are fairly well known. The Islamic calender is based on the start of the prophets pilgramage to madina in 622AD. The months of the Lunar calender ,in order are:
1. kaanuun ath-thaaniyy 7. tammuz
2. shubbaat 8. 'aab
3.adhaar 9. 'ayluul
4.naysaan 10.tishriin al-'awwal
5.'ayyar 11. tishriin ath-thaaniyy
6. Huzayran 12. kaanuun al'awwal
The lunar calender is based on the lunar cycle. Month 'ayluul on the lunar calender in month ramadan on the islamic calender. In order to start a new calender or era based on the same lunar cycle, one had to change the names of the moons (or months). Thus, the 9th moon 'ayluul was named Ramadan,ect...all to distinguish the two calenders using the same moon. The Lunar calender exsisted before the Islamic one. The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months relate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The moons phases (or numbers) are what makes rabi awal distinct from Muharam. Moon/month number ones names are kaanuun ath-thaaniyy and Muhaaram. And adhar and rabiix al awwal are exclusive names of moon number 3. The 9th moon/month 'ayluul (or ramadan) is the hottest moon/month, and the Quran was sent down in that month.
For all we know. :peace:
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on October 05, 2009, 03:35:48 PM
Peace
Well it eluded me to write this that the day and night depend on the rotation of the earth around its axis, i do not remember if i wrote it in a previous post, but of course that again shows that both the earth and sun relative motion are needed in the interaction for the build-up of a useful calendar, so what is your damage guest?
Both you and Ayman need basic education in astronomy. Otherwise why would you write an ignorant thing like solar year is exactly 365.25 days? That is a rounded number that is used to explain elementary school children the concept of leap year that occurs every 4 year. Therefore, 365.25 is NOT AN EXACT NUMBER. Get it. See below quote for your mistake. We already know how nights and days are caused.
Quote from: theNabster on October 03, 2009, 04:48:41 PM
So how about the interpretation of Joseph's that he made of the king's dream, did he make it using a lunar calendar (religious) so that each year is about 354 days, or the solar calendar in which each year is exactly 365.25 days?
The damage is yours not mine. Like Ayman, you did not comprehend the matter in my statement. The nights and days are NOT connected to the earth?s orbit around the sun. We would still get nights and days even if the earth did not go around the sun. Therefore, you cannot connect 17:12 to solar calendar. Hence, you cannot say that the God is ordering us to use the solar calendar for our timing system.
Peace,
and what physical phenomenon will hold the Earth while it is rotating on its axis?
so Mr guest you seem to be lacking even more basic levels of physics...
.25 do not bother me, very manageable, the Gregorian calendar works beautifully...
nowhere in the Quran it also says that we must stick to a rigid calendar, so long as we do not violate foundational principles
of monotheism, and we obey the commandment, which is in fact the hint that the number of months in a year is 12.
Saying that Allah means a lunar year is idiotic to say the least!
and yes sir, saying that you and your follower belH are idiots do not violate foundational principles of monotheism, so i say it with
confidence and a clear conscience, you are both idiots in your narrow mindedness, and you are the ones giving Islam a bad name...
this is coming from me who advised you already that i am doubly in the blood line of our Prophet on my father and mother side, as you are sunni which i clearly gather, you certainly treat blood lines with contempt, but maybe just maybe, the Prophet prayed good for his descendants, and i in turn pray that Allah makes matters manifest between us and show us the Truth not as we keep on arguing, but as it will benefit us all... and so Allah help us...
guest, belH, everybody, let us remember Allah sees us...
to lighten up despite all, smile, you might be on camera ;)
Quote from: guest on October 06, 2009, 09:01:36 AM
Peace,
Both you and Ayman need basic education in astronomy. Otherwise why would you write an ignorant thing like solar year is exactly 365.25 days? That is a rounded number that is used to explain elementary school children the concept of leap year that occurs every 4 year. Therefore, 365.25 is NOT AN EXACT NUMBER. Get it. See below quote for your mistake. We already know how nights and days are caused.
The damage is yours not mine. Like Ayman, you did not comprehend the matter in my statement. The nights and days are NOT connected to the earth?s orbit around the sun. We would still get nights and days even if the earth did not go around the sun. Therefore, you cannot connect 17:12 to solar calendar. Hence, you cannot say that the God is ordering us to use the solar calendar for our timing system.
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on October 06, 2009, 12:22:36 PM
Saying that Allah means a lunar year is idiotic to say the least!
and yes sir, saying that you and your follower belH are idiots do not violate foundational principles of monotheism, so i say it with
confidence and a clear conscience, you are both idiots in your narrow mindedness, and you are the ones giving Islam a bad name...
The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (25:63). Peace.
Guys, guys, this thread is going nowhere!
You know why?
Because the Quran doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state when exactly Ramadan is.
So chill. :handshake:
peace be to you again and guidance and protection from ignorance and saying about God what we do not know...
how do we know if the Prophet is granted to see this "ummah" now,
would he not like Daoud, Sulaiman, and Issa for bani Israeel curse us as a whole?
Quote from: guest on October 06, 2009, 03:12:04 PM
Peace,
The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (25:63). Peace.
this thread is going where it should go, that we have not learnt yet to live as a community, and are busy squabbling and fighting among ourselves (and that is nothing compared to other religious sects), instead of building and flourishing, and fulfilling Allah's covenant, "...ansuruni, ansurukum, washkuruli, walatakfurun...", surely we won't hit that like the lottery,
it needs finding out what went wrong and correcting it,
surely it has not been corrected because Allah is not answering...
surely He asks us to use our God given abilities, not be idiots and drones...
ring a bell?
:jedi:
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2:185 and 2:189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2:185. I agree that 2:185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 10:5, 17:12, 97:1, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2:185. 2:185,2:189, and 10:5 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2:189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7:142 and 89:2 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2:184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 9:36 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun. Just because Muhammad migrated in the moon/month named rabi alawaal ( or adhar using lunar calender), dont mean rabi alwaal or adhar has to be called moon number 1, because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st, which, the first moon is named kaanuun ath-thaaniyy or MuHarram using Islamic calender. The months would be arbitary if rabi alawaal (or adhar) was made to be month number 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right.
10:5 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2:185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2:184-185 and 189. From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2:185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2:185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2:184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2:185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month. The months on the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months correlate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The order of Islamic months are fairly well known. The Islamic calender is based on the start of the prophets pilgramage to madina in 622AD. The months of the Lunar calender ,in order are:
1. kaanuun ath-thaaniyy 7. tammuz
2. shubbaat 8. 'aab
3.adhaar 9. 'ayluul
4.naysaan 10.tishriin al-'awwal
5.'ayyar 11. tishriin ath-thaaniyy
6. Huzayran 12. kaanuun al'awwal
The lunar calender is based on the lunar cycle. Month 'ayluul on the lunar calender in month ramadan on the islamic calender. In order to start a new calender or era based on the same lunar cycle, one had to change the names of the moons (or months). Thus, the 9th moon 'ayluul was named Ramadan,ect...all to distinguish the two calenders using the same moon. The Lunar calender exsisted before the Islamic one. The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months relate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The moons phases (or numbers) are what makes rabi awal distinct from Muharam. Moon/month number ones names are kaanuun ath-thaaniyy and Muhaaram. And adhar and rabiix al awwal are exclusive names of moon number 3. The 9th moon/month 'ayluul (or ramadan) is the hottest moon/month, and the Quran was sent down in that month. The Lord said: ? My message today is the same one I commanded the earlier prophets to tell Juruslim and its villiges when they were prosperous. As well as the others, when they were filled with people.
So, once again,I, the Lord All-Powerful, tell you: " See that justice is done, be kind and merciful to one another, and stop making plans to hurt each other." O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
When you worship Me by going without eating, it should become a time of celebration. Said the Lord.
:jedi: End of disccusion :peace:
Peace
that will make guest happy, you have your own sign now, wow!
btw "messenger" don't you think it will be nice if whoever is inspiring you used a spell-checker too >:D
Peace Rami,
Quote from: Rami on October 06, 2009, 03:35:37 PMGuys, guys, this thread is going nowhere!
You know why?
Because the Quran doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state when exactly Ramadan is.
I agree. The great reading doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state exactly when a month that has the meaningless name of Ramadan is. Human calendars are ultimately dependent on when the era was made to start, which month it started with, the order of the months and the meaningless names of the months. This is the same as for the week. When religious holy days occur is also 100% arbitrary and manmade. For example, when Friday, Saturday and Sunday occur depends on when the 7 day week was adopted, which day it started with and the arbitrary order and assigned labels of the days. The great reading doesn't specify any of the above either for months or for weeks. So yes, it certainly doesn't specify a calendar. However, what is abundantly clear is that it specifies and keeps telling us to pay attention to clear cosmic phenomena for timing. This is why based on this correct understanding we are now and at any time in the future able to know with certainty when to fast no matter what happened or did not happen in the past. Those who are arguing for the sectarian manmade calendar cannot get this point and cannot experience this.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on October 07, 2009, 02:33:02 PM
Peace Rami,
I agree. The great reading doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state exactly when a month that has the meaningless name of Ramadan is.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Give me a break. The Quran clearly tells us to establish a LUNAR calendar otherwise we would be NON-COMPLIANT with many God's commandments.
10:5 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may
learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
Without a calendar you cannot count or calculate years.
Conventional knowledge is death to our souls,
and it is not really ours. It is laid on.
Yet we keep saying we find "rest" in these "beliefs."
We must become ignorant of what we have been taught
and be instead bewildered.
-Rumi
Quote from: ayman on October 07, 2009, 02:33:02 PM
Peace Rami,
I agree. The great reading doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state exactly when a month that has the meaningless name of Ramadan is. Human calendars are ultimately dependent on when the era was made to start, which month it started with, the order of the months and the meaningless names of the months. This is the same as for the week. When religious holy days occur is also 100% arbitrary and manmade. For example, when Friday, Saturday and Sunday occur depends on when the 7 day week was adopted, which day it started with and the arbitrary order and assigned labels of the days. The great reading doesn't specify any of the above either for months or for weeks. So yes, it certainly doesn't specify a calendar. However, what is abundantly clear is that it specifies and keeps telling us to pay attention to clear cosmic phenomena for timing. This is why based on this correct understanding we are now and at any time in the future able to know with certainty when to fast no matter what happened or did not happen in the past. Those who are arguing for the sectarian manmade calendar cannot get this point and cannot experience this.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Ayman, this makes a lot of sense but I'd like to know how it was determined what 'abstaining' (as it is translated) means/covers? How do we know it refers to fasting? And if it does, how do we know it's food AND water, since going without water all day--especially if you happen to be working out in the fields or outside in the scorching sun all day--can be quite unhealthy; people can become very dehydrated. As far I know, the following verses are the only ones that touch on this subject. Again, as with many other important topics, these verses are also vague/unclear and open to interpretation, not to mention scattered throughout the Qur'an. I can't help but wonder why God would not have made them a bit more specific/clear. These are your translations, taken from your first couple of posts.
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion,
so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
7:142. And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten: thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
10.5. It is He who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light and made it stages; so that you might know the number of years and the calculation. The God didn't create this except with the truth, He explains His signs to people who know.
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
If 2:185 is translated correctly, and if 'witness' is indeed the word used, it becomes clear that one cannot witness a month; however, one can witness the moon. But how does one 'abstain' it? How does one abstain or even fast a moon?
Quote from: RasulHamsa on October 07, 2009, 03:27:17 PM
Conventional knowledge is death to our souls,
and it is not really ours. It is laid on.
Yet we keep saying we find "rest" in these "beliefs."
We must become ignorant of what we have been taught
and be instead bewildered.
-Rumi
He was so right.
Peace Scheherezade,
Quote from: Scheherezade on October 07, 2009, 05:15:32 PMAyman, this makes a lot of sense but I'd like to know how it was determined what 'abstaining' (as it is translated) means/covers? How do we know it refers to fasting? And if it does, how do we know it's food AND water, since going without water all day--especially if you happen to be working out in the fields or outside in the scorching sun all day--can be quite unhealthy; people can become very dehydrated. As far I know, the following verses are the only ones that touch on this subject. Again, as with many other important topics, these verses are also vague/unclear and open to interpretation, not to mention scattered throughout the Qur'an. I can't help but wonder why God would not have made them a bit more specific/clear. These are your translations, taken from your first couple of posts.
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
2:187 clarifies what the fasting is about:
2:187. It has been made lawful for you during the night of abstinence to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. The god knows that you used to betray yourselves so he has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what the god has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of daybreak; then you shall complete the abstinence until the night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are the god?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that the god makes his revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous. The abstinence is prescribed only for those who can do it without difficulty. Those who can do it but with difficulty should substitute by feeding a poor person. It is not an obligatory thing to do.
Quote from: Scheherezade on October 07, 2009, 05:15:32 PMIf 2:185 is translated correctly, and if 'witness' is indeed the word used, it becomes clear that one cannot witness a month; however, one can witness the moon. But how does one 'abstain' it? How does one abstain or even fast a moon?
There are two possible explanations.
In Arabic people regularly use expressions like "Omrat Ramadan". This doesn't mean that they will be going on the sectarian Omrat for the whole month that they call Ramadan. This simply means that the month of Ramadan is what marks this "Omrat" of theirs. Same thing with "abstain it". The scorching full-moon only marks the abstinence. How long (the complete count of a few days) and what the abstinence is about (food and water and sexual contact during the day) are given in other places around 2:185. Had "abstain it" meant "abstain a month" then the info about how long given elsewhere would be redundant and unnecessary.
The other possible explanation is that the "it" (like the previous it) could be referring to the "abstinence that was decreed on you". So the passage is saying "abstain the abstinence that was decreed on you (not just any abstinence)".
Either of those explanations easily resolves any perceived logical issues. On the other hand, the interpretation of "shahr" as month creates several insurmountable logical absurdities:
1. Of course "witnessed a month" is illogical since one cannot witness a month as you said.
2. It is also illogical since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. So logically this would imply that one would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it.
3. Just "being present" in a month is logically not enough since everyone is present but the passage is talking about "whomever amongst you" (meaning some amongst you did not witness) and therefore this is further confirmation that the passage is talking about witnessing the event of the scorching full moon.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace guest
have many breaks, and may Allah rests your soul
jazakallah for the ayat 10:5, it actually goes opposite to what you think ;D
however since you have not particularly been nice to me, i will not give you any hint, let us see if your one kilo mass of fat cells between your ears can figure this out for themselves...
though i doubt it will assuage you, you will again try and find something else to force your lunar calendar through, as you are a stubborn individual who is a creature of habits, and who make no effort to think for himself...
Quote from: guest on October 07, 2009, 03:00:30 PM
Peace,
Give me a break. The Quran clearly tells us to establish a LUNAR calendar otherwise we would be NON-COMPLIANT with many God's commandments.
10:5 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
Without a calendar you cannot count or calculate years.
Quote from: RasulHamsa on October 07, 2009, 03:27:17 PM
Conventional knowledge is death to our souls,
and it is not really ours. It is laid on.
Yet we keep saying we find "rest" in these "beliefs."
We must become ignorant of what we have been taught
and be instead bewildered.
-Rumi
WARNING: Please beware of poets and the ignorant people who quote them. Poets are one of the key reasons why we have Greek Mythology (half human and half animal, thousands of gods, idol worship ?.). They are DISBLEIVER as evident from the following Quranic verses:
26:224 - As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers.
36:69 - What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a formidable proof, and a profound Quran.
69:41 - Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
??and it is not really ours? implies that we don?t have to believe in ONE GOD (disbeliever) and can commit bad deeds without any consequences i.e. no punishment since the soul is not ours.
Therefore, please ignore Rumi?s poetry and the Rumi lovers.
He is so WRONG.
Professor Nabster, why are you silent on this irrelevant and untruth post? Do you love Rumi?s nonsense poetry as well?
Peace,
Quote from: theNabster on October 07, 2009, 10:36:34 PM
Peace guest
however since you have not particularly been nice to me, i will not give you any hint, let us see if your one kilo mass of fat cells between your ears can figure this out for themselves...
Thank you for the "NO HINT". Save IT for the disbelievers. Peace.
The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (25:63). Peace, peace.
Peace guest
there are so many wrong things in this world, i would not know where to start...
on this thread i focus on calendar...
rumi was astray and mentally sick, same with all sufis...
as you wish, no hint, and thank you for the label, it is mutual btw, peace to you too...
peace peace
The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (25:63). Peace, peace.
Quote from: guest on October 08, 2009, 08:56:55 AM
WARNING: Please beware of poets and the ignorant people who quote them. Poets are one of the key reasons why we have Greek Mythology (half human and half animal, thousands of gods, idol worship ?.). They are DISBLEIVER as evident from the following Quranic verses:
26:224 - As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers.
36:69 - What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a formidable proof, and a profound Quran.
69:41 - Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
??and it is not really ours? implies that we don?t have to believe in ONE GOD (disbeliever) and can commit bad deeds without any consequences i.e. no punishment since the soul is not ours.
Therefore, please ignore Rumi?s poetry and the Rumi lovers.
He is so WRONG.
Professor Nabster, why are you silent on this irrelevant and untruth post? Do you love Rumi?s nonsense poetry as well?
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-Thomas Jefferson
Quote from: RasulHamsa on October 08, 2009, 04:04:16 PM
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-Thomas Jefferson
The slaves were denied education to keep them ignorant, do you prefer that over error. Error is correctable with education. You need to think and comprehend. You need time to do that.
at last something we can agree on, (on top of foundational principles of monotheism that is...)
Quote from: guest on October 09, 2009, 03:44:06 PM
The slaves were denied education to keep them ignorant, do you prefer that over error.
Error is correctable with education. You need to think and comprehend. You need time to do that.
This thread is so incredibly long... :o
Are there good arguments on inner pages that can be highlighted in a separate, shorter thread?
Quote from: sarah_bd_gemini on November 25, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
This thread is so incredibly long... :o
Are there good arguments on inner pages that can be highlighted in a separate, shorter thread?
This thread waas realy realy very hot :sun: dont reopen it please but yes you can find some very good arguments in it. :police:
Quote from: afridi220 on November 25, 2009, 07:58:56 AM
This thread waas realy realy very hot :sun: dont reopen it please but yes you can find some very good arguments in it. :police:
believe me, I don't want this thread reopened. It is already unwieldy enough as it is.
Peace Sarah,
Quote from: sarah_bd_gemini on November 25, 2009, 01:53:58 AMThis thread is so incredibly long... :o
Are there good arguments on inner pages that can be highlighted in a separate, shorter thread?
This thread is long as a result of attempts to refute the arguments on page 1 but instead unwillingly contributing to strengthening them and inadvertently creating the most detailed resource anywhere in the world on the issue of the timing according to the great reading. So the good arguments are on page 1 and if you can read between the lines then the rest is just the icing on the cake.
Peace,
Ayman
Selam
I would love to see this thread written as an article, with all its argument for and against.
Peace
Quote from: hope4 on November 25, 2009, 12:25:16 PM
Selam
I would love to see this thread written as an article, with all its argument for and against.
Peace
seconded,
almost no one here has the time to go through 143 pages of material and figure out what's worth reading and what isn't.
Quote from: sarah_bd_gemini on November 25, 2009, 12:32:57 PM
seconded,
almost no one here has the time to go through 143 pages of material and figure out what's worth reading and what isn't.
Selam Sarah
I followed it for months and feel there were loads of circular arguments. Someone will leave the discussion after hitting a brick wall and then another come back and start the same argument all over again. The fact is the argument could possibly be condenced to 10 pages, most of the pages are repeated discussions hence the circular argument bit. I personally feel Ayman is on to something here and would like for him to continue his study in this area, may Allah give him patients and good health to continue and produce his findings as an article for us to read and judge with an open mind.
Peace
Quote from: sarah_bd_gemini on November 25, 2009, 12:32:57 PM
seconded,
almost no one here has the time to go through 143 pages of material and figure out what's worth reading and what isn't.
Thirded
I'm not going through 143 pages either
Quote from: nsws1988 on December 29, 2009, 09:08:34 PM
Thirded
I'm not going through 143 pages either
Then why both of you are increasing these pages. ???
Quote from: afridi220 on December 30, 2009, 02:37:22 PM
Then why both of you are increasing these pages. ???
We're not. We're still on the same page.
Quote from: ayman on November 25, 2009, 12:19:20 PM
Peace Sarah,
This thread is long as a result of attempts to refute the arguments on page 1 but instead unwillingly contributing to strengthening them and inadvertently creating the most detailed resource anywhere in the world on the issue of the timing according to the great reading. So the good arguments are on page 1 and if you can read between the lines then the rest is just the icing on the cake.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all:
Ayman,
Have you had the time to update your article on ramadan timing, taking into consideration the other points raised in this forum?
Thanks,
Ramon
ayman i just wrote down in detail all i wanted to say about how to know when the months are ,and the computer ate them all.and it is late ,tomorrow longday.so i am going to make this quick.
i cannot believe what happened the computer ate the most important thing i have written in my life.
any ways i willl do it again.
first of all let us agree on what a shaher is ,
yes every one tell you it is a month ,well it is not .
all we know is that a shaher is present twelve times in a year.
and it is both lunar and solar.very well.
ok the prophet was told to tell us in the quran about the ahillat ,we need to use them so we know time of haj.good
so what is a shaher. it is the ahillat,but hey wait a minute am i saying that a month is from one ahillah to another.like maybe 26 days no not at all.
a ahillat is the combination of the hillals that is between or around five days. when the moon dies and there are those nights with out the moon then the moon is born again.those nights are what we call a shaher.yes those nights with out a moon.
yes that is a shaher and i will show you why. is is like only about five days.
and we have twelve of them in one year.so that we know the years.
good so it starts with the deiing of the moon to the birth of a new one,now why did allah tell us in the verse in the quran that we should come the homes from the door and not from the back,for if we count the ahiilat from the birth of a new moon then one shaher would be like 26 days but if come from the door of the shaher it will be like only five days.
strange what makes me say that,ok give one more minute.see about ashhur el haram,what could there be that we know them.
bare with me ,so now we know that a shaher is not the moon cycle,but the cycle of the ahillat.great,so how do we know ashhur al haram,we know from quran they are four.in one year four of those shahers have less nights then the ussuall ashhur.yes it is strange they are the shahers that come after the shaher of ramadan.and i will tell you how we know it is ramadan ,give me another minute.
onlythose ashhur all haram are seperate from eachother they like have two ashhur between them that are regular ashhur.in ahshur all haram their nights are only four and the rest of the ashhur have five nights.
so ashhur all haram are about four days long each and they are four.they come in pairs,this is what the test shows and often they are devided by a pair of regular shahers not months dont make the mistake of thinking a shaher is month.
it is a shaher ,the days and nights where one cannot see the mooon between the ahillat.
then we need to know when is ramadan.for it is true that the ashhur all haram start after the shaher of ramadan and that is what i have noticed.so know how do we know that ramadan has started.
or it is the coming shaher .
the quran tells us that the shaher of ramadan is a shaher of bayinat that we will be signaled with many signs to know it is it.
so let us see,since it is only a five night and day shaher as all the other regular shahers then it must be evident during the days that come before it that will give us all those signs.that it will be clear that this month is different.
so let us see together what are those signs.
1-the rain will start to fall again after a long summer.ramadan
2 change of season.
3-plants beggin to grow again.
4-the days stop form getting bigger and they start to get smaller.
5-one big moon in the sky and i mean really big. the biggest you can find all year round.the collor is different too.
6-the sun is different during sun set even after it sets those collors are differnt and the sun have a round shape we can see,with out hurting our eyes.it is also the biggest sun we can ever see.
7- all this in a few days likesome twenty days.or twenty six and can be found together with in that time frame.
6-some call the moon the harvest moon for the fulll moon during that time is full of light,and one can see very clearly.
so we get all those signs and then we know that the time this time when the moon is not there any more for those comming few days it is called the shaher of ramadan.yes five days we are ordered to fast those days without a moon.
during those days is lalayet al qadr.remmember when the quran says,(wa kan kaba qawsayne aw adna)yes between those too cresents when there is no moon to light the night,and there is only darkness it is the shaher.
the thing about those ashhur el hurum and ramadan well they dont change seasons,yes mostly ramadan is in september or october,and the hurum ashhur basically come,in march april and october december.
but do the experiments your selfs dont take my word for it.
inshaalah allah will lead us with the quran and nothing else,every thing else is shurk and will result in many ikhtilaf.
brother please forgive me if i have mistaken or mislead you in any way.
Allah knows best.
Peace brother Mohamad, all,
Thank you Mohamad for your interesting post and for sharing your interesting theory. I will study it and reply soon. Right now I a have to rush because I am writing this from the Airport and my flight is going to be departing shortly.
Meanhwile, as requested by several members, I have summarized the findings on this thread in a new article. However, the article is in Arabic since I wanted to also test this understanding with Arabic speakers and interestingly, the arguments are much more compelling in Arabic:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
I would be interested in feedback from Arabic speakers on the forum.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Selam Mohamad
Very good observation and a interesting concept which deffinitly calls for more investigation. If someone can put that in a article form it will be excellent to read and ponder over. Keep up the good work and may Allah guide us.
Peace
Selam Ayman
Any chance you will have that article translated into English?
Peace
hope you have a safe trip.as for what you have written i have read it.
yes is see what you mean,i want you to know that i could not of come up with my conclusion if it was not for your help.
thank you again.
pls consider what haram means.
it mostly means unique.see it in the quran ,it means unique
al beit al haram,the unique house for there is non like it.
unique in the sense that it is left out from the other houses it might have other qualities that other houses do not.
ashhur hurum we have the same thing here again. they are unique in the number of days and nights mostly three or four as for the other ashhur they are five .
and concerning when in the quran it was Allah told us that the blood is haram ,pork,and the dead.it makes sense since it must be left out of our food,like kept unique as not to be eaten in relation to the other meat we eat.
i hope this helps in your research and please forgive me if i lead you astray see i dont know.only allah is the one with knowledge.inshhaaa he will forgive me and i hope adn ask that he does.
salam
as for the day of jumua it is not jamaa3a but jumua maybe you out to look into that.thank you ayman and thank you all for your help.
ayman as for youm al jumoua.
if we observe the aya it has alot of meaning in it.
i would want to high light each word in this phrase "noudiya min youm el joumoua"
usually al nidaa is something is done with an order or some thing to ask for,like here noudiya lilsalat.
it is clear up to here so some one is calling for prayer during the day ,meaning midday prayer but what is yaoum al joumoua.
here moslems might missunderstand this to be friday.
i would like to make clear that we dont have week days in the quran and they are neither seven.
so what is joumoua.dont worry i promise this is easy to understand and will be easier then most think.
joumoua is a word from jamaa but to make it smaller we say in arabic tasgheer ,meaning to make smaller ,jamaaa is alot and alot of people.so joumoua is a group of people and they dont have to be a big group just any group of people.
but what is meant by yaoum.so we have a call for mid day prayer from a group of people.
in the quran it is referd this word yaoum.in many many ayas .
yaoum meaning during the day of " " ,it is like when we say in english during the day of judgement.so we need to have judgement for the word that day to take place.it is connected to the subject .the day of something.
so what is the day of joumoua.
yaoum al joumoua ,it simpley means the day when a group meets .
so now the aya is clear it states clearly that when it is called for prayer on the day that there is a group of people together then stop work adn go pray.
it seems that Allah is telling us in the quran that he likes us to be in groups ,especially during mid day prayer,when ever there is a group who calls for mid day prayer then pray with them and stop your work that is.only in midday prayer.
but this has taken a different meaning when we started
having the meaning to be days of the week ,those where never from the quran and have changed with time.
so people think it is a friday but it does not have to be a firday.it could be every day.or every time a group is calling for prayer during midday.
but that even does not nullify what moslems do on friday.it seems that they agreed to meet in groups only on fridays during mid day adn have the prayer.
i state again this is not wrong it goes with the aya.but please know that this does not mean that joumoua prayer happens only once a week.it could happen every day.and it could happen once a year in some cercumstances.
Quote from: ayman on June 24, 2010, 05:59:54 PM
Peace brother Mohamad, all,
Thank you Mohamad for your interesting post and for sharing your interesting theory. I will study it and reply soon. Right now I a have to rush because I am writing this from the Airport and my flight is going to be departing shortly.
Meanhwile, as requested by several members, I have summarized the findings on this thread in a new article. However, the article is in Arabic since I wanted to also test this understanding with Arabic speakers and interestingly, the arguments are much more compelling in Arabic:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
I would be interested in feedback from Arabic speakers on the forum.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
Peace Ayman, all.
Thank you for all your efforts. May God bless you.
Your understanding of the shahr ramadhan has certainly rubbed on me and that it has been about 4 to 5 years since I'm into this study. Your new article is surely something to look forward to reading. And although I'm not an arabic speaker I will take this as a sign that I should start learning into the language as well. Of course, we would appreciate this article to be in english by God's leave.
I am in the Philippines and a few minutes ago my son and I folded the world at the equator (0 degrees) and my country falls into the northern hemisphere but still close to the southern hemisphere.
Last year, I failed to witness the "scorching full moon" of July 7, 2009 since this is also the time that my daughter was born. It just missed my mind and apparently Satan's whisper was so strong that I'm unable to go out of the hospital to look at the moon. Tonight, June 26, 2010 is the "scorching full moon" here but I only got to see the moon at about close to 9 p.m. (today, June 26 2010 the moon should have risen at around 7 p.m. and with the eclipse running up to 8:45 p.m.) and I noticed the absence of the reddish hue already. Could it be because it has already risen up? Or could the absence of the reddish hue be due to our location in the hempishere?
This means that tonight I failed to see the moon rising up on the horizon as well as the eclipse. And this is my question: Is it enough to see the full moon as a marker to fast? Or is it that we should be able to see the moon rising in its reddish glow to be able to say that we "witness" shahr ramadhan?" I have looked forward to this day since missing the shahr ramadhan in 2009 (the time I made the decision to fast) and the fasting but everything is God's will. There is always a reason for everything.
I would appreciate a response bro. It will help a lot in making the decision to fast tomorrow or not. By the way, my two sons (9 and 6 years old) and my daughter (7 years old) witnessed the full moon with me. Are they under any obligation to fast as well?
A response is really appreciated.
Peace.
Ramon :jedi:
Peace Ayman, all.
Just for anything: my email address is m.jalmaani@yahoo.com.ph.
Thanks again.
:jedi: Ramon
Peace all:
And yes I am on Facebook too: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1654630457. There is no need to hide identity now since what I have been doing is already known here; though I'd still maintain that I am a nobody, I can guide no one even the ones I love and that I continue to learn from God.
It just hit me that witnessing the full moon is enough marker to fast:
From Ayman's translation:
2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
Or is it?
Thanks,
Ramon O0
I quickly read it to see if there is a change of our understanding about of the night "alqadr" since our last exchange in November, 2004, page 3 of this thread.
I would like to read comments from other arabc speakers on your article.
You chose a relevant title for your article.
It is a pleasure to read your articles.
Peace be with you all
Salaam Ramon
Hereby some remarks related to your questions if I may.
Quote from: the seeker on June 26, 2010, 10:56:15 AM
This means that tonight I failed to see the moon rising up on the horizon as well as the eclipse. And this is my question: Is it enough to see the full moon as a marker to fast? Or is it that we should be able to see the moon rising in its reddish glow to be able to say that we "witness" shahr ramadhan?" I have looked forward to this day since missing the shahr ramadhan in 2009 (the time I made the decision to fast) and the fasting but everything is God's will. There is always a reason for everything.
A red moon is not everywhere at the same day in the whole hemisphere.
In the Northern countries there is even during mid-summer seldom a real red moon.
So it seems to be better to follow the place where the Koran was sent down as an objective criterium for the timing of the fasting.
The hottest period of the year in Arabia is related to the summersolstice - this might go together in that region with a red moon.
So the first full moon after the summersolstice on the Northern Hemisphere seems to be relevant, it can be known all over the word by moon-calendars.
In an allegorical way all the believers all over the world witness this -shahr ramadan-.
This is an objective issue not depending on a personal experience. Mind the millions of believers who would miss the red moon because of a clouded day.
So also the believers who do not see the red moon in person should fast the -shahr ramadan-.
Quote from: the seeker on June 26, 2010, 10:56:15 AM
I would appreciate a response bro. It will help a lot in making the decision to fast tomorrow or not. By the way, my two sons (9 and 6 years old) and my daughter (7 years old) witnessed the full moon with me. Are they under any obligation to fast as well?
God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 22:78.
Verse 2:184 states that the believers who are able to fast but do not fast should provide for the food of a poor person - this seems to imply that only the believers who are old enough to have a regular income and to engage into legal transactions - which is giving away money or food- should join the fast.
So your children are not obliged to fast, it seems.
Salaam and ramadan kareem.
truthseeker171
please not that that the moon does not always keep the same distance from earth.
sometimes it is close and sometimes it is far.and that distance is grate about 15 degrees in difference.
it is important to know that the moon is full sometimes at a closer distance adn sometimes at a further distance.
for one cycle of distance the moon needs to make takes one year.exactly one year,i find that very strange.
Allah subhanahi wa taala tells us in the quran "wa qadarnahu manazilla hata ada kal erjun al kadeem" some people understand this as the regular moon phases.
but i think arjun this word means lantern. so the aya clearly states that we have given levels till it comes back as an old lantern.
the meaning is clear that this is a full moon with dimmed light ,in contrast to a full moon with a strong light.if it is close then the light is strong and if it far then the light of the full moon is dim.
so if we put that with the yearly sun cycle then we might find out that maybe when the moon is closest and at the same time it is full during that day,then we now that the coming shahr is ramadan ,please refer back to my previous post to see what i mean by shahr.
back to the moon .and we know those days when the moon is furthers form the earth we might see ashhur hurum for they last longer then two days.
.i will try to put that in drawing to explain what i mean.
salam.
Peace sister Marie,
Quote from: marie on June 26, 2010, 11:40:40 PMI quickly read it to see if there is a change of our understanding about of the night "alqadr" since our last exchange in November, 2004, page 3 of this thread.
I would like to read comments from other arabc speakers on your article.
You chose a relevant title for your article.
It is a pleasure to read your articles.
It is great to hear from you and thank you for reading the Arabic article and your kind evaluation. You inspired and contibuted to several of the points in the article. I remembered and experienced the following amazing signs last night with my family:
فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ
084.016
YUSUFALI: So I do call to witness the ruddy glow of Sunset;
PICKTHAL: Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the sunset redness, Right after sunset we went out to witness the scorching full moon. We looked in the direction where the sunsets and saw the red afterglow of the sunset.
وَاللَّيْلِ وَمَا وَسَقَ
084.017
YUSUFALI: The Night and its Homing;
PICKTHAL: And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,
SHAKIR: And the night and that which it drives on, We turned to the directly opposite direction where the darkest part of the sky is and where darkness seems to be spreading from.
وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا اتَّسَقَ
084.018
YUSUFALI: And the Moon in her fullness:
PICKTHAL: And by the moon when she is at the full,
SHAKIR: And the moon when it grows full, From that direction where darkness spreads, after a few minutes, we saw the scorching full-moon slowly rising.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2nqe0yh.jpg)
Living and experiencing those signs was amazing.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on June 27, 2010, 05:16:23 PM
Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
Hope
there are only 144 pages, just go thorough them quickly to have a good understanding!
Quote from: RasulHamsa on June 27, 2010, 05:20:47 PM
there are only 144 pages, just go thorough them quickly to have a good understanding!
:yes
Peace, about 140 of them are circular arguments. But thanks for pointing out the obvious ;)
Quote from: hope4 on June 27, 2010, 05:16:23 PM
Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
ONly read this artical no need to go through all pages.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Hope
Quote from: hope4 on June 27, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Peace, about 140 of them are circular arguments. But thanks for pointing out the obvious ;)
obvious is the most difficult but you are welcome!
Quote from: afridi220 on June 27, 2010, 05:30:11 PM
but she must know all the arguments not just that one post!
Quote from: RasulHamsa on June 27, 2010, 05:32:45 PM
but she must know all the arguments not just that one post!
She OR he what type of optical your wearing??
Quote from: afridi220 on June 27, 2010, 05:40:29 PM
She OR he what type of optical your wearing??
sorry to offend you good sir, it was just a typo!
Non taken :peace:
please we are not yet sure as when is ramadan.
we have to be clear on this.
i think the matter is in its simplicity.
we have to observe the moon again.
and see more proof from the quran.
the proof we take must be obvious,no (taaweel)
we still need to figure out what is shahr and we need to figure out when is ramadan.
remmember only the quran will do,as for other sources ,i find difficulty to take .
thank you and salam.
the quran says that ramadan has bayinat so it is more then one sign.so it is not just the moon phase or full moon or no moon.we neeed more proof for ramadan. as for those signs and what they are we need to find from the quran.
give it more time ,allah is mercifull and he will show us in shaa.
Salaam Hope
Quote from: hope4 on June 27, 2010, 05:16:23 PM
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-.
Verse 2:185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.
- ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2:184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.
This seems to be a compelling quranic ruling with a clear unambiguous time-frame.
An abstention out of the time-frame of the duration of the full moon is not suggested in the relevant verses.
There seems not to be another verse that could put this aside in a compelling way.
Other related verses and comments can be read at:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0
Salaam and ramadan kareem
truthseeker171
Salaam Mohamad
Quote from: mohamad itani on June 28, 2010, 03:38:52 AM
the quran says that ramadan has bayinat so it is more then one sign.so it is not just the moon phase or full moon or no moon.we neeed more proof for ramadan. as for those signs and what they are we need to find from the quran.
Verse 2:185 - The month [the full moon] of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month [it] .... -
Pickthall - between brackets is added.
The word -bayinat- relates to the Koran not to the word -ramadan-.
The Koran states that one should abstain the -shahr ramadan- when it is witnessed.
A full moon can be witnessed and abstained - other readings would be rather illogical.
We can not witness a whole month and go back into time and abstain the month.
The period between the two -hilal- when the moon is absent does not seem to be relevant either. We can not witness the absence of the moon in an unambiguous way that we would be able to know the period of fasting - most of the day the moon is absent.
Furthermore verse 2:189 informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Compelling seems to be the absence in this verse of the other communal Islamic event: the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.
Salaam
truthseeker171
yes i see brother,wow ,you are clear.
it might mean that al shahr is the full moon.
but does that mean that we should fast on every full moon 12 times a year for two or three days.
the quran states only two.
for when you first see it then comes day one and then day two.
it clearly says that you can be with your woman in day one and eat and drink on day two.
so we can stilll use the end of the moon phase for haj as for ramadan it is the full moon.right
i see truth seeker ramadan was not mentioned in the moon phase change only haj and timing ,you are right ,
thank you you made something very diffuclt for me easy
i dont know what to say .
you are a brother.
but now we need to know is there one month a year or more.
you get what i mean.
thank you appreciate your reply.
salam
as for haj the no moon phase apply and how the four month are different from the others ,stilll needs to be tested.
thank you '
what i find difficult ,is how to know it is full moon.
i sometimes confuse the full moon from the semi-full moon.
yesterday was a full moon . i think it is easy if we use numbers as when the moon was born.
so we might fast for twelve of those days of full moon are they three or two i dont know.
the aya is clear.
so they might be three.
thank you seeker.
salam.
so we have the shahr that is the full moon.
so we have like twelve consecutive times to fast a year. twelve of those
addind up to two or three days each. right.
as for the no moon phases they are for haj and that we know the times.
that is cool .and the moon pheses are for us to know the times.
ok i see.
i still think that there are times in between the moon phases that are different in length sothatwe know when is haj.
but see there is some contradiction here .there are ashhur hurum the ones for haj .and when ahilat was mentioned we see clearly that the quran states so we know when are those times for haj , clearly stating the no moon phases.the ending of the moon phase and the beggining of the other"ahhilat"
pls consider. they are called ashhur ,so the ashhur hurum are not full moons.because the quran clearly states that the ahillat are the times of haj.
as for the full moon i think the quran states it to be the al arjoon . the lantern.
pls consider ,i know you have spent a long time on this but i want to be clear . thank you and thank you seeker .
so shahr ramadan is not a full moon but a no moon phase.
i think it is mostly three nights in length,as stated. but we neeed to know when are ashhur hurum.we need proof from the quran ,we needd to keep on looking .
maybe when we know the missing peace it will be clearer.
they are simply unique months with similarities.
ashhur hurum meaning unique.
kissas. meaning similar or equal.
and there is in the quran al haj al akbar. what does that mean. i dont know
i am only speculating ,could it be one of longer length like three insted of two or four insted of three.
just putting more to look at .
thank you .
truth seeker.
i have something that i want to share with you ,tell me what you think.
the aya is clear it says that who ever sees the full moon the shahr then he must fast.
and in here we despute whta is a shahr is say it is the no moon like the new moon as it is known and you say it is the full moon.
i dont know.
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.
i want to give you an example
when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.
pls let us reflect more on this ,i think we need to giveit more time ,dont jump to conclusions and dont get misguided from thta which is not quran. i see it gives others the exact opposite as some claim that the prophet saws used to fast on a full moon. pls we have to discover from the quran.
let us see further this issue.
salam
Salaam Mohamad
Quote from: mohamad itani on June 28, 2010, 08:44:36 AM
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.
Verse 2:185 states that when one witnesses the -shahr ramadan- one has to abstain it.
Witnessing can mean literally seeing, but allegorically it can mean being present.
Millions of people did not see the -shahr ramadan- because it was clouded in their region.
So following moon-calendars could be the best way - the believers can witness the -shahr ramadan- in the most unambiguous way.
Quote from: mohamad itani on June 28, 2010, 08:44:36 AM
when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.
We can not prove your assumption that once a year the new moon is seen during the day and not during the night. This is highly unlikely.
The -shahr ramadan- is one of the 12 or 13 full moons of the year - it is related to the scorching heat - that is the meaning of the word ramadan.
In Arabia that is the moment of the summersolstice - june 21.
The first full moon after the summersolstice indicates the period of abstention - this once a year and unambiguous.
Salaam
truthseeker171
in shaa allah i will put aya numbers soon. as for now ,
if one is to take full moons as signs then it is difficult because one cannot know when it is exactly full ,even to the professional eye.
i think it is not to do with the full moon .
besides the name of the full moon in the quran is al qamar.
the aya states wa qadarnahu manzilla hatta ada kal irjun al kadeem.
al qamar is the whole moon i think.
but it was not ever given to be a sign for fasting .it was never said who witness the al qamar then fast. it was said who witness al shahr.
i have more proof from quran,,but i will stay silent for now. i dont know why but i dont feel i can come out with this at the moment. i would like to be more quranic about it.
salam.
Salaam Mohamad
Quote from: mohamad itani on June 28, 2010, 05:03:24 PM
if one is to take full moons as signs then it is difficult because one cannot know when it is exactly full ,even to the professional eye.
You are right in stating that the full moon has not a 100 percent clear beginning and ending - the same we can say for the -hilal-, regarding the international debates about the beginning and ending of the traditional fast of the sunni, shia and others.
And as said before verse 2:189 states that the -hilal- is only relevant for the hajj and personal timing for the people, the other communal event; the period of fasting is not mentioned. From this we can deduce that another timing-device is relevant for the -shahr ramadan-.
A moon-calender can show us the moment of the scientific full moon - exactly to the minute, but the full moon with at least 98% coverage lasts three days, no shorter not longer.
What can be discussed is when the three days of fasting start.
Is it one day before the scientific full moon when there is 98% coverage - so day 3 will also have about 98 % coverage?
Or is it the start after the scientific full moon with about 99.+x % coverage and do we accept that the moon is at day 3 of the fast only 96 % visible?
Verse 2:184 states that the fast should be more than two days - regarding the plural-form days -ayyaamaan-.
So the full moon can be a perfect marker of the beginning and ending of the three days of fasting.
Only there is to be decided if the scientifical or the visual full moon is to be followed - 98 % coverage is a visual full moon.
Salaam
truthseeker171
i was trying to take this further the timing or ramadan and ashhur hurum.
and i think there is this time in the year where the new moon the full moon that cannot be seen for it is on the side of the sun,only once a year for about one hour in the horizon it can be seen. some call it twilight.
the strange thing about it is that it is a shahr as i stated before and it is seen,now what is really strange is that a shahr cannot be seen ,becuase mostly at night when we got the shahr it is on the side of the sun so cannot be seen ,it is in between the cresents.
now i got to go back to the quran,it says :
man shahida minkum el shahr fal yasoumh.
meaning who ever witness the new moon shall fast.
but how can we witness tthe new moon ,it cannnot be seen.
only on that night where it is in the horizon ,its shaded part can be seen. the sun shows it even after it sets .
the quran states
alam tara eella rabika kayfa mada al zthilla wa laaw shaaa la jaalahou sakinaan thouma jaalana al shamsa alayhi dallilla.25:44
thuma kabadnahu elayna kabdan yaseera:25:45
the strange is yet to come.
after ramadan there comes four shouhour where we cannot see the hillal in the first middle part of the night. it cannot be witnessed the moon is never seen on those four months.
strange yes.
the moon can only be seeen even if it was a hillal in the later part of the night when people are mostly sleeping.
unlike the other eight month.
what you think.
this is only possible if al shahr means new moon. the unseen moon.
and about the seasons on our planet well yes they do mean a lot to our calendar. but seasons are always changing there location on the star map.
they change every 19 years to come back where they have started. so the true year is the lunar year adn our seasons my friend seem to be changing location.
if we look at the big picture what is bigger our solar system or the universe.
and it seems that one rotation around the universe map is one year adn the seasons are changing with time, theire timing.
so that when it was the time of ramadan that was the exact time the quran came down. and exact location. but if we take the solar timing it keeps on changing in regard to the universal map.so one time it is in scorpio and the other it is in some other insstalation and that is pointless.
so the time is actually a location is space. ramadan shows us the time and location of where the quran came down from .there might be a (mi3raj )there. or there might be a bab or abwab.so it is either a black hole or some worm whole of some sort. and allah is most knowledgable. or it points directly to something. alah knows best.but that is how the quran came down to us from there.there is ramadan.
please tell me what you think.
salam from mohamad.
Salaam Mohamad
God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 22:78.
You have an astronomical approach, which is rather hard to grasp.
We have to bear in mind that the Koran is a global message which is in principle clear and easy to understand - verse 6:114, 16:89.
Quote from: mohamad itani on June 29, 2010, 09:55:47 AM
but how can we witness tthe new moon ,it cannnot be seen.
only on that night where it is in the horizon ,its shaded part can be seen. the sun shows it even after it sets .
after ramadan there comes four shouhour where we cannot see the hillal in the first middle part of the night. it cannot be witnessed the moon is never seen on those four months.
the moon can only be seeen even if it was a hillal in the later part of the night when people are mostly sleeping.
unlike the other eight month.
this is only possible if al shahr means new moon. the unseen moon.
The natural phenomena that you describe seem to be of a rather regional character and it would be a very weak sign especially in more humid and clouded areas.
Furthermore it would last only a relative short moment, as you wrote, it lasts about an hour.
The Koran is clear about the duration of the abstinence.
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2:184 requires a number of more than two days.
The believers who witness the -shahr ramadan- should fast it, that means the whole period of the -shahr ramadan- not longer or shorter.
The full moon lasts three days - with at least 98% coverage, a visual full moon. That is compatible with verse 2:184.
The -shahr- as the full moon can be witnessed globally at the same day.
Scientifically full moon starts at the same moment over the whole world.
The Arabic word -shahr- means obvious, round and clear, your description of the -shahr- is the opposite of the literal meaning of the word -shahr-.
The -hilal- is the sign of the start of the new moon and the ending of it.
Verse 2:189 is very relevant.
This verse informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Interesting is the absence here of mentioning the other communal Islamic event: the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.
Verse 25:45 is related to the shadow and the sun - there is not a direct connection to the phases of the moon.
Verse 25:46 states allegorically that the sun is drawn back, verse 25:47 tells why this happens: to create the night, the night is described in the first half of verse 25:47.
Quote from: mohamad itani on June 29, 2010, 09:55:47 AM
and about the seasons on our planet well yes they do mean a lot to our calendar. but seasons are always changing there location on the star map.
they change every 19 years to come back where they have started. so the true year is the lunar year adn our seasons my friend seem to be changing location.
If you read verses 10:5, 17:12 and 12:47-49 together then one can see that the Koran indicates that the solar year is valid.
The Koran has in many perspectives a very down to earth approach, so the period of abstinence is rather described from the human perspective - according to the Koran it is clear and easy to understand - for instance verse 12:1, 15:1.
Salaam
truthseeker171
Quote from: truthseeker171 on June 27, 2010, 03:05:45 AM
Salaam Ramon
Hereby some remarks related to your questions if I may.
A red moon is not everywhere at the same day in the whole hemisphere.
In the Northern countries there is even during mid-summer seldom a real red moon.
So it seems to be better to follow the place where the Koran was sent down as an objective criterium for the timing of the fasting.
The hottest period of the year in Arabia is related to the summersolstice - this might go together in that region with a red moon.
So the first full moon after the summersolstice on the Northern Hemisphere seems to be relevant, it can be known all over the word by moon-calendars.
In an allegorical way all the believers all over the world witness this -shahr ramadan-.
This is an objective issue not depending on a personal experience. Mind the millions of believers who would miss the red moon because of a clouded day.
So also the believers who do not see the red moon in person should fast the -shahr ramadan-.
God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 22:78.
Verse 2:184 states that the believers who are able to fast but do not fast should provide for the food of a poor person - this seems to imply that only the believers who are old enough to have a regular income and to engage into legal transactions - which is giving away money or food- should join the fast.
So your children are not obliged to fast, it seems.
Salaam and ramadan kareem.
truthseeker171
Salam truthseeker171 and all:
Thank you for your response.
I have started fasting the day after June 26 after witnessing the full moon already above the horizon. Guess I have to wait for 2011 to see the reddish hue, God willing.
Your observation on "witnessing" is worth researching into because as of the moment my understanding is one has to see the full moon to be obligated to fast. Of course one can fast any time by God's leave. As a matter of fact in 2007 I fasted for 60 days with the intention of quitting smoking. Alhamdulillah I did it.
I thank you also for your observation on who can fast: being one who has regular income and to engage in legal transactions. I'd like to caution you on this because other people may not have a regular income and engage in legal transactions but they are able to seek provisions (from God) for themselves, their family and other people (by way of charity). So I believe the best description is that the one who fast is "capable of seeking provisions for himself and others." So this necessarily exclude young children (although again no one should bar them if they wish to fast.)
Peace and thanks!
O0 Ramon
i am considering what you are saying and i do agree with alot of it ,still having some doubt about some of it though.
i need more proof.like the full moon it happens twleve times a year ,are we supposed to fast twelve times.
what make it in the summer,is it the name ,which i consider a bit weak to put my faith on as ramadan.
still not clear i think we need to look some more in the quran.my presumptions could be very wrong.still need brighter proofs.
like is it the summer solace is it clear in the quran.need to look some more. i need more time.
yousouf and the seven years ,i dont know. i always seem to be looking in the other direction.hope to come up with something i dont know. i need to reflect on the quran.
peace.
Peace Mohamed,
Quote from: mohamad itani on July 05, 2010, 01:51:10 PMi am considering what you are saying and i do agree with alot of it ,still having some doubt about some of it though.
i need more proof.like the full moon it happens twleve times a year ,are we supposed to fast twelve times.
The full-moon after the summer solstice is the one that marks the fast.
Quote from: mohamad itani on July 05, 2010, 01:51:10 PMwhat make it in the summer,is it the name ,which i consider a bit weak to put my faith on as ramadan.
still not clear i think we need to look some more in the quran.my presumptions could be very wrong.still need brighter proofs.
like is it the summer solace is it clear in the quran.need to look some more. i need more time.
yousouf and the seven years ,i dont know. i always seem to be looking in the other direction.hope to come up with something i dont know. i need to reflect on the quran.
It is not a meaningless name. It is a clear description given by the god.
This is further confirmed by 17:12:
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.There is only one way to know the number of years using the night and day. The year has to be the time between solstices, either summer solstices or winter solstices. The meaning of "ramadan" clearly points to the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
i see what you mean,that would all be simple if ramadan is the month of heat.
this is a clear point.
is there any other proof,and what about ashhur hurum.
i think the same methode should be used to conclude both of the matters. they are both times .
like the ramadan and how it is known as a season and how is ashhur hurum known.
peace ayman it is great to hear from you.
Peace
I did some research about the reading during these last days. I would like your opinions.
The word ?Ramadan? contains the root ?r m d = scorching heat? and the suffix ?a/n? which could mean, now, the beginning of the ?ramad? (scorching heat). In Arabic, the equivalent of the season is ?alfasl?that I understand as the limit between two seasons.
In the verse 2:185, we read whoever of you can observe the full moon which marks the beginning of the scorching heat season, then make from this night your first night of fasting.
Like the word ?ramadan?, in the word ?alquran? one can see the root ?q r a/ = to read? and the suffix ?a/n? which could mean now.
To read now, in the present ?
In the word ?alsalat? one can see the word ?sila = the link? and the suffix ?A/t? which could mean to move towards the link?
I will be back to finish my post God willing
Bon app?tit et bonne f?te!
Peace and best wishes
ayman i do owe you an apology you have put so much work into this,and i am merely speculating.
after going through the book"the natural republic "
i realized that in order to take any thing from the quran it must be clear ,no speculation and one must have good intentions.
i do realize that i am mistaken for taking the shahr to mean the no moon phase or the new moon as some call it.i was wrong and i admit it.
i could not find any where in the quran that states me to be right.
any ways that is how i am ,i always need time to agree after i go through things.
that is what made me what i am today ,a submitter to the truth that is quran and to refuse all stories put by generations of ignorance.
i found you to be very calm in your replies and always tolerant.
thank you again ,hope to learn more from you and "the natural republic " i want to congradulate the author too.
at first i did not know that people like myself existed.
i was trying to understand and speculate by my self and i did find many explanation to be exactly like my understanding of the quran.
thank you all for the effort
and may God bless you all.
thank you ayman.
peace
Is there anyone think about that:
Why believers can't do "sawm" during voyage (2:184) ??
Is there any difficulty for Islamic sawm (fasting) during voyage ?
Why believers forbidden to sex during "sawm" in public (masjit) instead of everywhere ?
Why there is no any mention about breaking "sawm" during war or propaganda in these hottest days ?
Can we get any relationship between day/night and propaganda-salat in day/take breath at night ?
Is "fasting" exact translation of the root of "Sad-Waw-Mim" ?
Regards
Peace Ayman,
I have a problem:
(http://www.worldtravelguide.net/a/main/8f350f44-1a25-476a-9457-1c431cc20c8b/563a7dd0-d7f1-4216-8070-81dd4a9981d1/3e81277b-fe90-4d2d-a153-510e99409489.gif)
As you can guess from the pic, the temperature here stays roughly the same throughout the year--but let's say, the hottest time in the year is around September (the driest is August). While the summer solstice for the Southern Hemisphere is in December. And i have yet to see which full moon is the brightest/clearest throughout the year (for 2010, local news said it (the brightest full moon) happened in January 30, Saturday night. Those in the northern hemisphere might have witnessed it in Friday night, January 29 (http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=28&month=01&year=2010)). That is, if this "perigee" full moon. Oh, and i found this Lunar Perigee and Apogee calculator (http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html). Seems that this "Lunar Perigee" has its own schedule (i.e., nothing annual).
Plus these are some info that i found contradicting your "scorching/orange/brightest full moon" explanation on the first page. I'm no astronomer, just a layman on this matter, but at least i can read between the lines...
Quote
The Moon at Perigee and Apogee
(http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/figures/sidebyside.jpg)
[...]
How Bright the Moonlight?
When the Moon is full near perigee, you'd expect it to be brighter than a full Moon near apogee and it is: lots brighter; let's figure out how much. Since the Moon shines by reflecting sunlight (not very well?it reflects only about 7% of the light that strikes it, comparable to a lump of coal) the following two factors determine the intensity of moonlight at the Earth:
1. The intensity of sunlight striking the Moon.
2. distance reflected light travels from the Moon to the Earth.
Since the difference between the minimum and maximum distance of the Moon, 50345 km, is an insignificant fraction of the average distance from the Sun to the Earth and Moon, 149597870 km, the intensity of sunlight at the Moon can be considered constant and ignored in this calculation. (Sunlight intensity at the Moon does vary, of course, due to the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit around the Sun, but we'll ignore that smaller annual effect here since we're concentrating on lunar perigee and apogee.)
The intensity of light varies as the inverse square of the distance between a light source and the observer, so taking the ratio between the perigee and apogee distances in the photographs above as typical, the distance at apogee was 1.1363 times the perigee distance, and hence the Moon's intensity at perigee was the square of this quantity, 1.2912 times brighter?about 30%. Using the long-term extremes plotted in the drawing in the previous section yields only a slightly greater intensity difference: a distance variation of 1.1413, with the Moon shining 1.3026 times brighter at perigee.
Like the variation in angular size, few people ever notice this substantial difference in the intensity of moonlight at perigee and apogee because there's no absolute reference against which to compare them. If you could flick a switch and move the Moon back and forth between apogee and perigee, the difference would be obvious, though not as evident as you might expect from a 30% change in illumination due to the logarithmic response of the human eye. Another document on this site discusses the differences between the linear response of photographic film and electronic sensors as opposed to the human eye, and how computer image processing techniques can allow producing images that approximate visual perception.
[...]
source: http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/moon_ap_per.html
And some bits of info which suggest that your "orange moon" theory needs some checking:
Quote
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Harvest_moon.jpg/300px-Harvest_moon.jpg)
Times of appearance
The Harvest Moon comes soon before or soon after the autumnal equinox. It is simply the full moon closest to that equinox. About once every four years it occurs in October (in the northern hemisphere), depending on the cycles of the moon. Currently, the latest the Harvest Moon can occur is on October 7. Often, the Harvest Moon seems to be bigger or brighter or more colorful than other full moons. These effects are related to the seasonal tilt of the earth. The warm color of the moon shortly after it rises is caused by light from the moon passing through a greater amount of atmospheric particles than when the moon is overhead. The atmosphere scatters the bluish component of moonlight (which is really reflected white light from the sun), but allows the reddish component of the light to travel a straighter path to one's eyes. Hence all celestial bodies look reddish when they are low in the sky.
The apparent larger size is because the brain perceives a low-hanging moon to be larger than one that's high in the sky. This is known as a Moon Illusion and it can be seen with any full moon. It can also be seen with constellations; in other words, a constellation viewed low in the sky will appear bigger than when it is high in the sky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon
In short: the hottest period of the year, the summer solstice, and the brightest/orange/scorching full moon, they don't mix so well -- i have trouble applying your proposition/theory into my situation. I was eager to put your timing theory into practice but now i'm just not sure.
Peace
Peace San,
Quote from: san on August 26, 2010, 09:59:19 PMI have a problem:
As you can guess from the pic, the temperature here stays roughly the same throughout the year--but let's say, the hottest time in the year is around September (the driest is August). While the summer solstice for the Southern Hemisphere is in December. And i have yet to see which full moon is the brightest/clearest throughout the year (for 2010, local news said it (the brightest full moon) happened in January 30, Saturday night. Those in the northern hemisphere might have witnessed it in Friday night, January 29 (http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=28&month=01&year=2010)). That is, if this "perigee" full moon. Oh, and i found this Lunar Perigee and Apogee calculator (http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html). Seems that this "Lunar Perigee" has its own schedule (i.e., nothing annual).
Plus these are some info that i found contradicting your "scorching/orange/brightest full moon" explanation on the first page. I'm no astronomer, just a layman on this matter, but at least i can read between the lines...
source: http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/moon_ap_per.html
And some bits of info which suggest that your "orange moon" theory needs some checking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon
In short: the hottest period of the year, the summer solstice, and the brightest/orange/scorching full moon, they don't mix so well -- i have trouble applying your proposition/theory into my situation. I was eager to put your timing theory into practice but now i'm just not sure.
What you are saying only applies for the regions around the equator, which are going to have relatively constant hot temperatures (as you can see from your graph). The term "ramadan" from the point of view of a pre-quranic Arab has to do with heat and red color. The link that you posted from Wiki explains that what gives the full-moon a reddish color is its low altitude. It doesn't say what causes the low altitude. As you may know, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth. So when the sun is high, the moon is low. Thus, the full-moon will always take the lowest path in the sky (and thus most reddish in color and this color lasting the longest) around the summer solstice (when the sun is at its highest).
Now as far as fasting, there are two ways to put this into practice:
1. Simply mark the fasting by the full-moon after the summer solstice in the southern or northern hemisphere depending on where you are (this is the approach I think is correct).
2. This second approach was proposed by Truthseeker171. Since the event of the scorching full moon is associated with sending down the great reading, which happened in the northern hemisphere, then everyone fasts according to the timing of the northern hemisphere.
Keep in mind that even if you follow approach #2, this doesn't change when the restricted full-moons occur, which should be different between southern and northern hemispheres since the the wild life cycles will be different.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
I do not agree with the second approach suggested by truthseeker171 approved by Aymen, due following reasons,
If God picked up the hottest and longest possible duration for us to fast, and He says , it is good for you only if you knew, it means that a certain duration or hardship is required for benefit, but when the people down under try and synchronise with the Northerners, they end up doing it in the most comfortable time of the year for a shortest possible time, and probably that wouldn't serve the purpose which Allah envisaged.
When Allah has clearly used the word Shahida (witness) for orange Moon, He means us to do it with our orange moon which would come in our scorching heat , giving us Hot and longest day .
Witnessing orange moon simply means " when you get your orange moon do it" Not when they get it .
siki
Quote from: siki on August 27, 2010, 05:51:49 PM
Peace
I do not agree with the second approach suggested by truthseeker171 approved by Aymen, due following reasons,
If God picked up the hottest and longest possible duration for us to fast, and He says , it is good for you only if you knew, it means that a certain duration or hardship is required for benefit, but when the people down under try and synchronise with the Northerners, they end up doing it in the most comfortable time of the year for a shortest possible time, and probably that wouldn't serve the purpose which Allah envisaged.
When Allah has clearly used the word Shahida (witness) for orange Moon, He means us to do it with our orange moon which would come in our scorching heat , giving us Hot and longest day .
Witnessing orange moon simply means " when you get your orange moon do it" Not when they get it .
siki
Dear All,
Please visit www.aastana.com and download a book "Truth about Saum" by Dr. Qamaruzzaman. You may, may find some answers there!!
Quote from: mubashir55 on September 04, 2010, 11:13:25 AM
Dear All,
Please visit www.aastana.com and download a book "Truth about Saum" by Dr. Qamaruzzaman. You may, may find some answers there!!
Selam mubashir55. Thanks for the link. The article makes a lot of sense and is well written. I am not an arabic speaker to varify his claims and will be hoping others with good arabic read it and let us know what they think. It is worth starting a thread on this article alone. May Allah guide us.
Peace
Quote from: hope4 on September 04, 2010, 05:53:53 PM
Selam mubashir55. Thanks for the link. The article makes a lot of sense and is well written. I am not an arabic speaker to varify his claims and will be hoping others with good arabic read it and let us know what they think. It is worth starting a thread on this article alone. May Allah guide us.
Peace
It started off well but the rest... :confused:
Quote from: nsws1988 on September 04, 2010, 11:06:51 PM
It started off well but the rest... :confused:
Selam
Yes I agree with you here. Seemed near the end to go off on a tangent with some very strong claims. It is for this reason I have asked for some people with good knowledge of arabic to read and maybe someone could start a thread on it to see if the claims are true or not.
Peace
Quote from: ayman on August 27, 2010, 10:21:36 AM
As you may know, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth.
This is not true.
Quote from: Hassan Bin Izhar on September 08, 2010, 01:31:07 PMThis is not true.
Tell this to NASA:
Anytime the Moon is full the Sun and the Moon are on opposite sides of the Earth. If one is high in the sky, as the Sun will be near the beginning of summer, the other must be low.From:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast14jun_1/
Peace,
Ayman
Yes, ONLY on the full moon.
Salam,
There can only be one month of Ramadhan and that it is the winter month in which the Quran was revealed.
If you are not in the northern hemepshere (or on earth) then you cannot "witness" that month and the fast is not required of these believers.
Quote from: Layth on September 18, 2010, 09:32:24 AM
Salam,
There can only be one month of Ramadhan and that it is the winter month in which the Quran was revealed.
If you are not in the northern hemisphere (or on earth) then you cannot "witness" that month and the fast is not required of these believers.
Peace Bro
I read your article regarding Qadr/jesus conception/Ramadhan, and my opinion is that your winter Ramadhan postulate is not all convincing. I think Ayman's scorching full moon is the way to go.
siki
Peace Siki,
QuoteI read your article regarding Qadr/jesus conception/Ramadhan, and my opinion is that your winter Ramadhan postulate is not all convincing. I think Ayman's scorching full moon is the way to go.
If I agreed with the scortching moon theory then I would not continue to post as I do on the winter timing :P
Ramadhan from my analysis can only occur during the month of the longest night(s). The scortching moon theory is very shaky.
Peace Layth,
Quote from: Layth on September 20, 2010, 04:31:47 AMIf I agreed with the scortching moon theory then I would not continue to post as I do on the winter timing :P
Ramadhan from my analysis can only occur during the month of the longest night(s). The scortching moon theory is very shaky.
You would have a point if it wasn't for one minor inconvenience :), which is that in Arabic the word "ramadan" means "scorching heat". Perhaps according to your winter solstice theory it would have been not shaky if the god described it as بردان/"baradan" (cold) instead of رمضان/"ramadan" (scorching heat). :)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Let's say someone woke up on an island like Hawaii or regardless if Anchorage Alaska observing sun and moon cycles.
Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)
10 October 2011 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us
Phase of the Moon on 10 October 2011: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Moonrise 5:19 p.m. (Full-moon before sunset repeats every 12 cycles)
Sunset 6:09 p.m.
2:185 full moon Ra-Miim-Dad = to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)
(http://oi53.tinypic.com/11s1hrp.jpg)
Full moon is visible in the east while the sun is still visible in the west before sunset and cycle repeats every 12 cycles (e.g. next one is 28 September 2012) and no need for intercalation/adding a 13th every 3rd year which Qur'an prohibits or skipping count/ignoring..
The above seems plausible if not for existence of Archduke Rainer's Papyri Collection PERF 558
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40A12F83C5B10738DDDA10994DD405B8484F0D3
http://aleph18.onb.ac.at/F/IMQQS86YHSLXQQ4D4NABY25AGTLIUMBHDGXLI8CUFXQ2F1DMJB-51951?func=find-acc&acc_sequence=000011467
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE. The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE
21-Jul 4:39 PM New Moon
23-Jul Ramadan 1st Day
05-Aug Full moon 5:47 PM
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
When calculating forward aligns with today's practice?
AH
22 0 0 643
23 354.36708 0.970224911 643.9702249
24 708.73416 1.940449822 644.9404498
.
.
.
1431 499303.2157 1367.0469 2010.0469
1432 499657.5828 1368.017124 2011.017124
CE AH First day Full moon
2011 1432 1 August 13 August 9:58 PM
This is Noon btw, had email/password issues and needed a new pseudo.
Peace
SEid -- Mr. Holiday
Quote from: SEid on January 04, 2011, 08:24:38 AM
Let's say someone woke up on an island like Hawaii or regardless if Anchorage Alaska observing sun and moon cycles.
Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)
10 October 2011 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us
Phase of the Moon on 10 October 2011: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Moonrise 5:19 p.m. (Full-moon before sunset repeats every 12 cycles)
Sunset 6:09 p.m.
That's not it for the same holds true in prior and preceding months; might be a different pattern I've not had a chance to analyze throughly.
Here is PERF 558 which unless a forgery it clearly spells out that shahr was a lunar month at least in 643 CE...
(http://oi52.tinypic.com/1zz5l4x.jpg)
Is it not possible that the verse where it says "black thread from the white thread" is a metaphorical reference towards truth becoming clear from falsehood. Further, eating and drinking may also mean consumption in a metaphorical sense.
In 19:26, Mary has been eating and drinking while in a state of "fasting/sayam"
My personal issue with this is that how come "fasting" which is supposed to make us "righteous/mutaqeen", is used as a punishment by God throughout the Quran. There are many verses where it is said that we should fast based on a prohibited act.
Peace Noon/Eid,
Quote from: SEid on January 04, 2011, 08:24:38 AM2:185 full moon Ra-Miim-Dad = to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)
Full moon is visible in the east while the sun is still visible in the west before sunset and cycle repeats every 12 cycles (e.g. next one is 28 September 2012) and no need for intercalation/adding a 13th every 3rd year which Qur'an prohibits or skipping count/ignoring..
This is not how the god tells us to observe the full-moon:
فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ
وَاللَّيْلِ وَمَا وَسَقَ
وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا اتَّسَقَ
084.016
YUSUFALI: So I do call to witness the ruddy glow of Sunset;
PICKTHAL: Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the sunset redness,
084.017
YUSUFALI: The Night and its Homing;
PICKTHAL: And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,
SHAKIR: And the night and that which it drives on,
084.018
YUSUFALI: And the Moon in her fullness:
PICKTHAL: And by the moon when she is at the full,
SHAKIR: And the moon when it grows full, As per above here are the steps:
Step 1: See the after glow of sunset
Step 2: See the night driving on from the opposite direction
Step 3: From that direction the symmetric full-moon will appear.So clearly the god tells us that the actual full-moon appears right after sunset.
Quote from: SEid on January 04, 2011, 08:24:38 AMThe above seems plausible if not for existence of Archduke Rainer's Papyri Collection PERF 558
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40A12F83C5B10738DDDA10994DD405B8484F0D3
http://aleph18.onb.ac.at/F/IMQQS86YHSLXQQ4D4NABY25AGTLIUMBHDGXLI8CUFXQ2F1DMJB-51951?func=find-acc&acc_sequence=000011467
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE. The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE
21-Jul 4:39 PM New Moon
23-Jul Ramadan 1st Day
05-Aug Full moon 5:47 PM
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
When calculating forward aligns with today's practice?
AH
22 0 0 643
23 354.36708 0.970224911 643.9702249
24 708.73416 1.940449822 644.9404498
.
1431 499303.2157 1367.0469 2010.0469
1432 499657.5828 1368.017124 2011.017124
CE AH First day Full moon
2011 1432 1 August 13 August 9:58 PM
If you notice PERF558 doesn?t mention ?Hijri?. It just says ?the year 22?. So we don?t know what this calendar dating is based on. So we don?t know how many years had passed between the prophet?s death and the invention of the calendar or even the unknown event that it was based on.
Here is what we also know from manuscripts about Umar I the alleged inventor of the calendar (From the writings of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai around 680CE):
The second king who arises from Ishmael is a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a ?hishtahawaya? (temple) there on the Temple rock, as it is said: "Your nest is set in the rock." According to this physical evidence Umar I was a Zionist who championed the primary Zionist cause of restoring the temple. This is how his actions and their motivations should be viewed. The Hijri calendar uses the crescent like the Jewish calendar. So the months would start and end at the same time. However, for the Jews the intercalation is the function of the Rabbinical authority and the Jews were not going to give up this authority to the state. Umar ensured this by doing away with intercalation for the state calendar.
Quote from: SEidHere is PERF 558 which unless a forgery it clearly spells out that shahr was a lunar month at least in 643 CE...
We know that in pre-Islamic times the word used for ?month? is ?yarkh? or ?warkh?:
552CE
http://www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Month = ?yarkh?, Month name = Zu A'allan
326CE
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html
Month = ?warkh?, Month name = Kaslul.
267CE
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.htm
Month = ?yarkh?, Month name = Tammouz
So we know that in PERF558 this is a post-Islamic meaning different to the pre-Islamic one (the great reading should be understood as a pre-Islamic text).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on September 29, 2010, 08:56:46 PM
Peace Layth,
You would have a point if it wasn't for one minor inconvenience :), which is that in Arabic the word "ramadan" means "scorching heat". Perhaps according to your winter solstice theory it would have been not shaky if the god described it as بردان/"baradan" (cold) instead of رمضان/"ramadan" (scorching heat). :)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
The word "Ramadhaan " cannot be translated because it is a "Proper noun" used by the Qurank. As a matter of principle proper nouns are never translated Keep this in mind.
Quote from: Q_student on February 07, 2011, 11:55:05 PM
The word "Ramadhaan " cannot be translated because it is a "Proper noun" used by the Qurank. As a matter of principle proper nouns are never translated Keep this in mind.
سلام،
انصحك بقراءة كتاب 'المعجزة الكبرى' للمهندس عدنان الرفاعي وإن شاء الله سترى أنّ رسم الكلمة في القرءان معجزة. فالقرآن الكريم ينتمي لعالم الأمر، ولا ينتمي لعالم الخلق.. ويتعلّق بصفات الله تعالى، وليس للبشر واجتهاداتهم شيءٌ في رسم كلماته، فرسم الكلمة القرآنية هو بأمر من الله تعالى، كما هي تماماً في اللوح المحفوظ..
لغة القرآن الكريم أكبر وأشمل من قواعد اللغة العربيّة التي تم تأطيرها، والقرآن الكريم هو المعيار لهذه القواعد..
salam,
this subject has every one thinking for a long time,what if we take the quran alone ,how will we know when is ramadan.
i think the more obvious is the better.we dont really need alot of scientific theory to figure out when is ramadan.
it must be something obvious else we will go into taweel and we dont want to do that.
to know when is ramadan then we need a sign right,the only sign you can get in nature is when we change the season from winter to spring ,we see the trees getting green again.well it is Allah giving life again to the plants.
Ramadan has to do with spring for ramad means spring as clear as that no need to for Nuclear physics.now we still have one problem ,when is the month we now we do have the season but when does the month start?
Allah Subhanah gave us another sighn to know the starting of the month and that is the new moon.when we first see it then we are in ramadan.
every where on earth does share the season change in the north hami the snow will melt and the birds are back,the treas will start to get grean.south hami the same thing spring does have that season change too.so the next sign will be the moon .who ever sees it then must fast that month .yes the whole month,as for the year with thirteen moon cycles.true we do have thirteen moon cycles during that year every eleven years or so but that is we dont have thriteen full moon life cycle,only a beginning of a new cycle.so we dont have full thirteen months in one year never.as we know now the moon cycle is only used for ramadan and money issues.
as for laylat el qadr ,well it does not have to do with the quran.it could mean something else too.who knows.it was not clear in the aya what was sent down with laylat el qadr.all it says is that it was el rouh and almalaikat.that is all.
Allah knows best.
Quote from: mohamad itani on April 10, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
Ramadan has to do with spring for ramad means spring as clear as that no need to for Nuclear physics.
so the next sign will be the moon .who ever sees it then must fast that month .yes the whole month,
Salaam
The meaning of the word -ramadan-:
- to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast -
Lane's Lexicon does not mention the meaning -spring- for the word -ramadan-.
quote from: http://www.med.umich.edu/diversity/pdffiles/ramadan.pdf
... In the pre-Islamic Arabic calendar, the month of Ramadan fell during the heat of summer.
The word Ramadan means ?scorcher? in Arabic. The early Arabic calendar, like the
current Islamic calendar, was lunar. Because a lunar month has only 29 or 30 days, a year
of 12 lunar months falls short of the 365 days in a solar calendar. In the pre-Islamic
calendar, the lunar months kept their place in the seasons by the insertion of an extra
month every two or three years. The Islamic calendar abolished this practice ...
Actually the Koran uses the language of pre-Islamic Arabia - otherwise the Koran would not be understandable for the people.
The Islamic calender seems to be a product of people who lived after the departure of the prophet Mohammed.
Does -shahr- mean a whole month?
The Koran seems to indicate otherwise.
1. Verse 2:189 indicates that there is no koranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last 29/30 or 10 days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the -hajj- and not for the communal event of the abstention during the -shahr ramadan-.
2. Verse 2:203 gives the only koranic exact example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2:184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the -hajj- which lasts ten days in total.
In verses 2:80 and 3:24 the word -ma'doodat- refers to the few days that the fire will touch a group of people according to their assumption.
In verse 12:20 the word -ma'doodat- refers to a few -dirhams-.
So the Koran indicates that the word -ma'doodat- is rather a very small number - not 29 or 30.
3. Verse 2:184 tells the believers when they witness or see the -shahr ramadan- that they should fast it - one can witness or see the full moon and fast it - the full moon lasts about three days.
If here a total lunar-cycle was meant - then it would be rather impossible: to witness or see the whole month and go back into time to fast the whole month.
One can only acknowlegde the start of a month - seeing the -hilal-.
But verse 2:189 clearly rules out that the period of fasting -shahr ramadan- has anything to do with the -hilal-.
The -hilal- was relevant for the -hajj-, not for the other communal koranic event - the communal fasting.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 22, 2011, 04:59:07 AM
The Koran seems to indicate otherwise.
1. Verse 2:189 indicates that there is no koranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last 29/30 or 10 days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the -hajj- and not for the communal event of the abstention during the -shahr ramadan-.
2. Verse 2:203 gives the only koranic exact example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2:184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the -hajj- which lasts ten days in total.
In verses 2:80 and 3:24 the word -ma'doodat- refers to the few days that the fire will touch a group of people according to their assumption.
In verse 12:20 the word -ma'doodat- refers to a few -dirhams-.
So the Koran indicates that the word -ma'doodat- is rather a very small number - not 29 or 30.
3. Verse 2:184 tells the believers when they witness or see the -shahr ramadan- that they should fast it - one can witness or see the full moon and fast it - the full moon lasts about three days.
If here a total lunar-cycle was meant - then it would be rather impossible: to witness or see the whole month and go back into time to fast the whole month.
One can only acknowlegde the start of a month - seeing the -hilal-.
But verse 2:189 clearly rules out that the period of fasting -shahr ramadan- has anything to do with the -hilal-.
The -hilal- was relevant for the -hajj-, not for the other communal koranic event - the communal fasting.
I got similar understand as yours about Ramadhan and its period of fasting, but not sure about the word "Shahr". I still have to study it in detail. Can you put some light on your understanding the meaning meaning of word "Shahr".
Thanks in advance.
May Allah increase us all in true knowledge and guide us all to His path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Quote from: mmkhan on April 22, 2011, 11:20:11 AM
I got similar understand as yours about Ramadhan and its period of fasting, but not sure about the word "Shahr". I still have to study it in detail. Can you put some light on your understanding the meaning meaning of word "Shahr".
Alaikoom as-salaam brother
Lanes Lexicon gives several meanings:
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent,
the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.
So the standard work of classical Arabic does not give a solution - only possibilities.
That is why it seems to be the best to focus on the word -ma'doodat-, the number of days of the communal abstention, in verse 2:184.
In this way the Koran may guide us to the koranic meaning of the word -shahr- in verse 2:184, the full moon that lasts three days.
Regarding the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses: 2:203, 2:80, 3:24 and 12:20 - three or a few.
Also verse 2:189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.
So the lunar-cycle starting with the -hilal- has no relevance to -shahr ramadan-.
When the word -shahr- is used in the plural form, then the days that are between the full moons are also belonging to the indicated period.
For instance verse 2:234 - the waiting period and 9:5 - the restricted full moons.
The period lasts from the first day of the first full moon until the last day of the last full moon.
In verse 2:194 -shahr haram- is mentioned in singular form - since it relates to one of the four restricted moons (verse 9:36), here the -shahr- is mentioned as exemplary as one of the four restricted full moons, which indicate a longer period.
So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following: when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2:185.
Salaam,
Truthseeker.
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 22, 2011, 12:51:06 PM
When the word -shahr- is used in the plural form, then the days that are between the full moons are also belonging to the indicated period.
For instance verse 2:234 - the waiting period and 9:5 - the restricted full moons.
The period lasts from the first day of the first full moon until the last day of the last full moon.
In verse 2:194 -shahr haram- is mentioned in singular form - since it relates to one of the four restricted moons (verse 9:36), here the -shahr- is mentioned as exemplary as one of the four restricted full moons, which indicate a longer period.
So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following: when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2:185.
Peace -- to be consistent, exactly how many days total?
4:92/58:4 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (شَهْرَيْنِ) consecutively
2:226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
2:234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ) and ten (i.e. fourteen)
9:2 so move about in the land four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
65:4 so their waiting period three ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 06:35:56 AM
Peace -- to be consistent, exactly how many days total?
4:92/58:4 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (شَهْرَيْنِ) consecutively
2:226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
2:234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ) and ten (i.e. fourteen)
9:2 so move about in the land four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
65:4 so their waiting period three ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
Salaam
Anyway the measuring of the month according to the -hilal- is not very exact - seeing the international disagreement about what and when a -hilal- is.
The full-moon marker seems to be more exact - since the mooncalendar can give reliable information about when the full moons are within a range of years.
For each example that you mentioned - there could be a rather precise countingmethod.
But one issue has to be delt with first - what is the beginning of the day - the morning or the evening?
Apart from this the standard rule might be: the first day of the full moon when there is about 98% coverage until the last day of the last relevant -shahr-, when there is also about 98% coverage.
The moon is actually never full seen from earth's perpective - if the sun, earth and moon where exactly in line, there would be a lunar-eclips.
The full moon with at least 98% coverage can be witnessed as a full moon and lasts about three days.
For the four restricted full moons this could mean that this period lasts about 91.5 days (3 x 29.5 + 3).
But the fine-tuning depends on when a new day starts - the evening or the morning? - that is another topic, that can be dealt with.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 23, 2011, 09:25:58 AM
Salaam
Anyway the measuring of the month according to the -hilal- is not very exact - seeing the international disagreement about what and when a -hilal- is.
The full-moon marker seems to be more exact - since the mooncalendar can give reliable information about when the full moons are within a range of years.
For each example that you mentioned - there could be a rather precise countingmethod.
But one issue has to be delt with first - what is the beginning of the day - the morning or the evening?
Apart from this the standard rule might be: the first day of the full moon when there is about 98% coverage until the last day of the last relevant -shahr-, when there is also about 98% coverage.
The moon is actually never full seen from earth's perpective - if the sun, earth and moon where exactly in line, there would be a lunar-eclips.
The full moon with at least 98% coverage can be witnessed as a full moon and lasts about three days.
For the four restricted full moons this could mean that this period lasts about 91.5 days (3 x 29.5 + 3).
But the fine-tuning depends on when a new day starts - the evening or the morning? - that is another topic, that can be dealt with.
Peace -- you keep skipping answering simple questions with more questions;
as with any problem let's break it down and simply apply it to fasting only...
We know fasting is from dawn to sunset, therefore how many days exactly?
4:92/58:4 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (شَهْرَيْنِ) consecutively
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 01:11:28 PM
Peace -- you keep skipping answering simple questions with more questions;
as with any problem let's break it down and simply apply it to fasting only...
We know fasting is from dawn to sunset, therefore how many days exactly?
4:92/58:4 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (شَهْرَيْنِ) consecutively
Salaam,
The fact that I brought up the relevant issue -when is the start of a new day-, did not hinder to give an answer.
I agree that fasting begins at dawn.
The ending of fasting at sunset - that is really an issue, that has not been cleared definitely yet - other topic.
(in my opinion the koranic night starts after the vanishing of the redness of the sky - witnessing the first planet/star, anyway later than sunset, since during sunset the -nahar- is still too dominant).
The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2:184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2:185 refers to three days.
One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, global, efficient tool - not high-tech.
As said before: if a plural of the full moon is mentioned, then the days between the full moons are to be included, for instance according to verse 2:226.
For two consecutive full moons - the number of days could be: at average: 29.5 + 3 days.
It is correct to bring up these verses concerning the plural -shahr-.
This subject seems not to overrule the wording of verses 2:184 and 2:185 - regarding -shahr ramadan-.
Furthermore:
The meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses: 2:203, 2:80, 3:24 and 12:20 - three or a few.
Verse 2:189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.
If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you:
1 - to proof that the word -ma'doodat- can mean 29/30.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2:189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing divice for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.
salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 23, 2011, 03:03:44 PM
Salaam,
The fact that I brought up the relevant issue -when is the start of a new day-, did not hinder to give an answer.
I agree that fasting begins at dawn.
The ending of fasting at sunset - that is really an issue, that has not been cleared definitely yet - other topic.
(in my opinion the koranic night starts after the vanishing of the redness of the sky - witnessing the first planet/star, anyway later than sunset, since during sunset the -nahar- is still too dominant).
salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam
And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary.
We took from them a solemn covenant; (33:7)
The Qur?an did not drop from the sky it was revealed to an ordinary man with special status due to a solemn covenant So Muhammad(pbuh) knew exactly when to start fasting and how to fast in that month. It will be better if you put your energies into doing bit of research into that period
Simpls ;)
Quote from: IMHO on April 24, 2011, 11:47:31 AM
And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant; (33:7)
The Qur?an did not drop from the sky it was revealed to an ordinary man with special status due to a solemn covenant So Muhammad(pbuh) knew exactly when to start fasting and how to fast in that month. It will be better if you put your energies into doing bit of research into that period
Salaam
The -solemn covenant- refers probably to the perfect transfer of the -message- to mankind.
The message that Mohammad had to give to mankind was the Koran - he succeeded very well as far as we can know.
So we have to search and find in the perfect and complete Koran, see for instance verses 6:115, 16:89, the right way of Islam - not in humanly invented sources like the -ahadeeth-, see for instance verses 45:6, 42:21.
Where do you suggest to find the right way of fasting during -shahr ramadan-?
I hope you will prefer to say: the Koran - our perfect guidance, verse 2:2.
If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you:
1 - to prove that the word -ma'doodat-, as in verse 2:184, can mean 29/30 in stead of 3 (days) or a few.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2:189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing device for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.
salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 24, 2011, 01:12:36 PM
Salaam
The -solemn covenant- refers probably to the perfect transfer of the -message- to mankind.
The message that Mohammad had to give to mankind was the Koran - he succeeded very well as far as we can know.
So we have to search and find in the perfect and complete Koran, see for instance verses 6:115, 16:89, the right way of Islam - not in humanly invented sources like the -ahadeeth-, see for instance verses 45:6, 42:21.
Where do you suggest to find the right way of fasting during -shahr ramadan-?
I hope you will prefer to say: the Koran - our perfect guidance, verse 2:2.
If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you:
1 - to prove that the word -ma'doodat-, as in verse 2:184, can mean 29/30 in stead of 3 (days) or a few.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2:189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing device for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.
salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam
There is a huge difference between hedth and sunnah so how about digging into past to find out how Muhammad (pbuh) implemented deen and once you put your energies into that eara, you would get your answers.
As for the point you raised they have been discussed several time in this thread and going into circular argument will not revive this threat anymore, the time has gone when this thread attracted lot of attention its time to move on to better subjects.
Simpls ;)
Quote from: IMHO on April 24, 2011, 03:21:34 PM
There is a huge difference between hedth and sunnah so how about digging into past to find out how Muhammad (pbuh) implemented deen and once you put your energies into that eara, you would get your answers.
As for the point you raised they have been discussed several time in this thread and going into circular argument will not revive this threat anymore, the time has gone when this thread attracted lot of attention its time to move on to better subjects.Simpls ;)
Salaam
Again I ask you - which sources do you advice to investigate the true meaning of the wording -shahr ramadan-?
If you name anything different from the Koran - then a discussion would be difficult - because the Koran is to be regarded as the real and only guidance - to find true Islam, verses 6:115, 16:89.
If you find some circular arguments in this thread - then it should not be very hard to find possible answers to following question:
If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you:
1 - to give koranic proof that the word -ma'doodat-, as in verse 2:184, can mean 29/30 in stead of 3 (days) or a few.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2:189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing device for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.
salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 06:35:56 AM4:92/58:4 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (شَهْرَيْنِ) consecutively
The period between two consecutive full-moons, in other words 29-30 days.
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 06:35:56 AM2:226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
Since "shahr" is an event like menstruation is an event, the same wording is used in both 2:226 and 2:228. The number of days will vary between 29.5x3 (if separation happens right before the full moon) and 29.5x3+28.5 (if separation happens right after the full moon).
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 06:35:56 AM2:234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ) and ten (i.e. fourteen)
The "ten" can be understood in light of the following passages 46:25 and 2:233:
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا
وَالْوَالِدَاتُ يُرْضِعْنَ أَوْلَادَهُنَّ حَوْلَيْنِ كَامِلَيْنِ لِمَنْ أَرَادَ أَنْ يُتِمَّ الرَّضَاعَةَ The word "7awl" is the time it takes for something to mature (the normal human gestation period). Thus the two passages can be reconciled using the following formula:
10 + 2(10) = 30
The time between 10 full-moons is 29.5x9= 265.5 and the normal human gestation period is 38 weeks or 266 days. The
only way to reconcile those two passages with the scientifc reality of human gestation period is if "shahr" was an event (the full-moon) and not a continuous period of 29 or 30 days. Otherwise, the human pregnancy would be 300 days, which we know if false!
So in 2:234, 14 = 4 + the normal gestation period (10). So they wait for 14 full moons.
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 06:35:56 AM9:2 so move about in the land four ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
Move about the land for four full-moons (until four full moons had passed).
Quote from: SEid on April 23, 2011, 06:35:56 AM65:4 so their waiting period three ashhurin (أَشْهُرٍ)
So their waiting period is three full-moons (until three full moons had passed).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on April 24, 2011, 06:27:35 PM
The "ten" can be understood in light of the following passages 46:25 and 2:233:
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا
وَالْوَالِدَاتُ يُرْضِعْنَ أَوْلَادَهُنَّ حَوْلَيْنِ كَامِلَيْنِ لِمَنْ أَرَادَ أَنْ يُتِمَّ الرَّضَاعَةَ
The word "7awl" is the time it takes for something to mature (the normal human gestation period). Thus the two passages can be reconciled using the following formula:
Ayman, salam
your reference for 46-25 is wrong , actually it is 46-15,
What would you say about " Haul" in 2-240 ? is it a year , or a cycle, and if cycle what cycle ?
siki
Peace Siki,
Quote from: siki on April 24, 2011, 08:46:45 PMAyman, salam
your reference for 46-25 is wrong , actually it is 46-15,
You are right. It is a typo and it should be 46:15. Thanks for correcting. :)
Quote from: siki on April 24, 2011, 08:46:45 PMWhat would you say about " Haul" in 2-240 ? is it a year , or a cycle, and if cycle what cycle ?
It is the same period mentioned previously in 2:233. In other words, the normal human gestation period of 10 full-moons.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Widow waits 4 shahars, if there is no sign of pregnancy, she can re marry, but if she is pregnant, then she is to go through 10 shahars (9 months of human gestation cycle) before she can re marry. And she must be provided for the complete (haull) cycle which is equvilant to 10 shahars or 9 months or 38 weeks, provided she decides to stay in her deceased husband's house, but if she wants to leave earlier, then it is not binding.
The waiting period for a divorced woman is counted with coming of menstruation , and she is to count 3 before she is free, but the same interim for widows is counted in shahars, and are 4, Any reason/logic ?
65-4 also gives instructions regarding women who have reached menopause and hence cannot rely on menstruation for completing their divorce interim, it replaces three mensturations with counting of three shahars.
And this is the most important clue that shahar is not a month , but an event , just like coming of menstruation.
siki
Peace
Verses 2:228 and 65:4 together also may provide evidence that the -shahr- is used as an -event- for counting time and is not a period of 29/30 days itself.
Verse 2:228 - the waitingperiod for a divorced woman is three -qurūin-, menstruations.
Three -events- of menstruation have to pass.
Verse 65:4 - the waitingperiod for a divorced woman (not pregnant) without (reliable) menstruationcycle is three -shahr-.
Three -events- of witnessing the full moon have to pass - 2 x 29.5 + 3 = 62 days (shortest - when full moon is witnessed the day after the divorce)
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam bro,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 22, 2011, 12:51:06 PM
Alaikoom as-salaam brother
Lanes Lexicon gives several meanings:
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent,
the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.
So the standard work of classical Arabic does not give a solution - only possibilities.
Yeah, I was looking to get the exact meaning of 'Shahr' but could not able to find it. If we take 'full moon' instead of 'month' it will change almost everything with reference to 'Shahr' in AlQuraan. For instance:
2:194
الشهر الحرام بالشهر الحرام والحرمت قصاص فمن اعتدى عليكم فاعتدوا عليه بمثل ما اعتدى عليكم واتقوا الله واعلموا أن الله مع المتقين2:194 The restricted month may be met with in the restricted month, and what is unlawful may be met with retaliation. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of Allah, and know that Allah is with the righteous.
What means AlShahr AlHaraam in 2:194? The Restricted Full Moon?
2:217
يسءلونك عن الشهر الحرام قتال فيه قل قتال فيه كبير وصد عن سبيل الله وكفر به والمسجد الحرام وإخراج أهله منه أكبر عند الله والفتنة أكبر من القتل ولا يزالون يقتلونكم حتى يردوكم عن دينكم إن استطعوا ومن يرتدد منكم عن دينه فيمت وهو كافر فأولئك حبطت أعملهم في الدنيا والءاخرة وأولئك أصحب النار هم فيها خلدون2:217 They ask you about the restricted month: Is there fighting in it? Say: Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of Allah and to disbelieve in it, and the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out from it is far greater with Allah, and persecution is worse than being killed. And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their works in this world and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide!
What does FEEHI mean in 2:217? Fighting in Restricted Full Moon?
5:2
يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تحلوا شعئر الله ولا الشهر الحرام ولا الهدي ولا القلئد ولا ءامين البيت الحرام يبتغون فضلا من ربهم ورضونا وإذا حللتم فاصطادوا ولا يجرمنكم شنءان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام أن تعتدوا وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدون واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب5:2 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Restricted Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Restricted Temple; make you aggress. And help each other in piety and righteousness, and do not help each other in sin and aggression. And be aware of Allah, for the retribution of Allah is severe.
O believers, do not make Restricted Full Moon HALAAL?
And there are many. We have change from 4 months understanding to 3 months and from 2 to 1.
Quote
That is why it seems to be the best to focus on the word -ma'doodat-, the number of days of the communal abstention, in verse 2:184.
In this way the Koran may guide us to the koranic meaning of the word -shahr- in verse 2:184, the full moon that lasts three days.
Regarding the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses: 2:203, 2:80, 3:24 and 12:20 - three or a few.
Also verse 2:189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.
So the lunar-cycle starting with the -hilal- has no relevance to -shahr ramadan-.
My understanding of 'ayyaamam ma'doodaat' is also three as per AlQuraan.
Why do you take 'Ahillati' as 'Hilaal' in 2:189? 'Ahillati' is a derivative of 'Uhilla' in 2:173, how will you translate 2:173 then?
Quote
So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following: when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2:185.
Scorching Moon? I did not see any such moon yet. And...
2:185
شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينت من الهدى والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله على ما هديكم ولعلكم تشكرون2:185 A month of aspiration, in which the Quraan was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify Allah for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
So, who ever witnesses 'AlShahr' [i.e., The Full Moon] then he should fast IT? How can we fast The Full Moon?
I am sure there is a difference in meanings of 'Shahr' and 'AlShahr', if you notice brother, 2:185 used both the words, why only 'Shahr' with 'Ramadhan' and why 'AlShahr'? Lets see how Allah guides us, we don't need to rush to misguide ourselves.
May Allah increase us all in true knowledge and guide us all to His path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
Yeah, I was looking to get the exact meaning of 'Shahr' but could not able to find it. If we take 'full moon' instead of 'month' it will change almost everything with reference to 'Shahr' in AlQuraan. For instance:
2:194 الشهر الحرام بالشهر الحرام والحرمت قصاص فمن اعتدى عليكم فاعتدوا عليه بمثل ما اعتدى عليكم واتقوا الله واعلموا أن الله مع المتقين
2:194 The restricted month may be met with in the restricted month, and what is unlawful may be met with retaliation. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of Allah, and know that Allah is with the righteous.
What means AlShahr AlHaraam in 2:194? The Restricted Full Moon?
2:217 يسءلونك عن الشهر الحرام قتال فيه قل قتال فيه كبير وصد عن سبيل الله وكفر به والمسجد الحرام وإخراج أهله منه أكبر عند الله والفتنة أكبر من القتل ولا يزالون يقتلونكم حتى يردوكم عن دينكم إن استطعوا ومن يرتدد منكم عن دينه فيمت وهو كافر فأولئك حبطت أعملهم في الدنيا والءاخرة وأولئك أصحب النار هم فيها خلدون
2:217 They ask you about the restricted month: Is there fighting in it? Say: Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of Allah and to disbelieve in it, and the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out from it is far greater with Allah, and persecution is worse than being killed. And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their works in this world and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide!
What does FEEHI mean in 2:217? Fighting in Restricted Full Moon?
5:2 يأيها الذين ءامنوا لا تحلوا شعئر الله ولا الشهر الحرام ولا الهدي ولا القلئد ولا ءامين البيت الحرام يبتغون فضلا من ربهم ورضونا وإذا حللتم فاصطادوا ولا يجرمنكم شنءان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام أن تعتدوا وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدون واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب
5:2 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Restricted Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Restricted Temple; make you aggress. And help each other in piety and righteousness, and do not help each other in sin and aggression. And be aware of Allah, for the retribution of Allah is severe.
O believers, do not make Restricted Full Moon HALAAL?
And there are many. We have change from 4 months understanding to 3 months and from 2 to 1.
The reading of the word -shahr- seems to depend on the context - where the -shahr- is related to the four restricted full moons - then the longer time of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days is referred to.
When the -shahr ramadan- is mentioned - then there is reference only to the scorching full moon itself.
Since the Koran does not state that there are more than one -shahr ramadan- in a year.
This is different form the restricted full moon - according to the Koran there are four of them in a year.
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
My understanding of 'ayyaamam ma'doodaat' is also three as per AlQuraan.
Why do you take 'Ahillati' as 'Hilaal' in 2:189? 'Ahillati' is a derivative of 'Uhilla' in 2:173, how will you translate 2:173 then?
Correct that you mention the meaning of -hilal-.
Depending on the context a word can have a different meaning - the meaning of verse 2:173 needs not to change because of any reading of verse 2:189.
The word -ahillati- in 2:189 is generally translated as new crescent moons, but also as phases of the moon in general.
In both meanings of the word the argument remains valid that only the communal event the -hajj- was regulated by the (several) -hilal- and not the communal fast.
If you take the meaning of phases of the moon as the only right one of reading of the word -ahillati-, the -shahr ramadan- could only be just one phase of the moon and has still nothing to do with the phases of the moon - in plural of more than two, as mentioned in verse 2:189.
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
Scorching Moon? I did not see any such moon yet. And...
2:185 شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينت من الهدى والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله على ما هديكم ولعلكم تشكرون
2:185 A month of aspiration, in which the Quraan was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify Allah for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
So, who ever witnesses 'AlShahr' [i.e., The Full Moon] then he should fast IT? How can we fast The Full Moon?
The moon can be witnessed as full during a period of three days - you can check this via a mooncalendar - three days with at least 98% coverage.
Actually the moon is never perfect full from earth's perspective - otherwise there would be a lunar-eclipse.
Three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- of verse 2:184.
So it is very possible to witness and fast the full moon.
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
I am sure there is a difference in meanings of 'Shahr' and 'AlShahr', if you notice brother, 2:185 used both the words, why only 'Shahr' with 'Ramadhan' and why 'AlShahr'? Lets see how Allah guides us, we don't need to rush to misguide ourselves.
May be this is a relevant point.
For now I could say - the wording -shahr ramadan- refers to the one special -scorching full moon- in which the Koran descended. And that -el shahr- refers to each -scorching moon- in which we may celebrate and remember that God has given mankind the perfect guidance - the Koran.
I agree we need not rush to misguide ourselves - but the fact is that Islam has been distorted throughout centuries by the acceptance of the system of -ahadeeth-. The best way seems to be, to study the Koran as if it just arrived on earth - to study it with as little as possible prejudice - also regarding the so called islamic calendar.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 25, 2011, 09:03:36 AM
The reading of the word -shahr- seems to depend on the context - where the -shahr- is related to the four restricted full moons - then the longer time of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days is referred to.
There I disagree. I don't believe that any meaning of a word of AlQuraan depends on the context, this is what the so called ulamas say, and they change the meanings as per their requirement. If we do the same, we are no more different from them.
BTW, I don't understand what means 'restricted full moons', can you please elaborate?
Quote
Correct that you mention the meaning of -hilal-.
Depending on the context a word can have a different meaning - the meaning of verse 2:173 needs not to change because of any reading of verse 2:189.
:nope:
As per my knowledge that Allah gave me I found each word of AlQuraan has a single meaning. Meaning will never change.
Quote
The word -ahillati- in 2:189 is generally translated as new crescent moons, but also as phases of the moon in general.
In both meanings of the word the argument remains valid that only the communal event the -hajj- was regulated by the (several) -hilal- and not the communal fast.
If you take the meaning of phases of the moon as the only right one of reading of the word -ahillati-, the -shahr ramadan- could only be just one phase of the moon and has still nothing to do with the phases of the moon - in plural of more than two, as mentioned in verse 2:189.
I still did not get the meaning of 'Shahr' as 'Full Moon' or 'Phases of Moon' or any other except 'Month' and it seems simple and clear to me yet.
Quote
The moon can be witnessed as full during a period of three days - you can check this via a mooncalendar - three days with at least 98% coverage.
Actually the moon is never perfect full from earth's perspective - otherwise there would be a lunar-eclipse.
Three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- of verse 2:184.
So it is very possible to witness and fast the full moon.
I understand the 3 days fasting during Ramadhan, that is OK about 98% of coverage, but not sure about Full Moon still. I have to check that with the help of Allah, inshaAllah.
Quote
May be this is a relevant point.
For now I could say - the wording -shahr ramadan- refers to the one special -scorching full moon- in which the Koran descended. And that -el shahr- refers to each -scorching moon- in which we may celebrate and remember that God has given mankind the perfect guidance - the Koran.
As I read from above posts people are getting back to 'event for counting time' so what is the different if we take it a month? Is there any problem it translating 'Shahr' as 'Month'?
And can you please explain the above red part.
Quote
I agree we need not rush to misguide ourselves - but the fact is that Islam has been distorted throughout centuries by the acceptance of the system of -ahadeeth-. The best way seems to be, to study the Koran as if it just arrived on earth - to study it with as little as possible prejudice - also regarding the so called islamic calendar.
Agreed. And that is what I said above in the beginning of my post.
May Allah guide us all to His path and increase us all in true knowledge :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Dear brother MMkhan,
you need to go through the whole thread from beginning, all of it, in it you will find answers to all of your queries , every thing is discussed many a times, over and over, in detail. And please dedicate a few days to grasp the idea.
siki
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 10:18:54 AM
There I disagree. I don't believe that any meaning of a word of AlQuraan depends on the context, this is what the so called ulamas say, and they change the meanings as per their requirement. If we do the same, we are no more different from them.
As per my knowledge that Allah gave me I found each word of AlQuraan has a single meaning. Meaning will never change.
For instance the word -salaat- can have several meanings - depending on the context.
Verse 24:58 -salaat el fajr-, the word is singular and indicates one of the daily prayers - analogy with: -shahr ramadan-, one of the full moons in a year.
Verse 4:103 -as-salaata-, the word is singular and in this verse the word refers to the -salaats- in general - analogy with: -el shahr haram- of for instance verse 5:2, the word is singular, but refers to the restricted full moons (and the days between them) in general.
Verse 2:238 -as-salawaati-, plural - analogy with -ashoor- plural, for instance verse 9:2.
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 10:18:54 AM
I still did not get the meaning of 'Shahr' as 'Full Moon' or 'Phases of Moon' or any other except 'Month' and it seems simple and clear to me yet.
The word month seems not to be mentioned in the Koran - only the timeframe of one full moon (three days) or several full moons (then
including the days between the full moons).
There might be a similar development of the word moon into the word month in several languages.
The human-made calendar has disconnected the month from the full moon.
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 10:18:54 AM
I understand the 3 days fasting during Ramadhan, that is OK about 98% of coverage, but not sure about Full Moon still. I have to check that with the help of Allah, inshaAllah.
God did not bring hardship with the religion Islam.
Verse 22:78 ... and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...
The current general practice of fasting 29/30 days is contrary to this verse - many people suffer and endanger their health - especially in the warmer countries. The economies of developing countries often go during "ramadan" at a slower pace - while the time is needed to build a good society.
A holiday of three days - fasting, resting and sleeping (and the middle-prayer) during daytime and be awake, eating and drinking during the night - celebrating and remembering the gift to mankind of the perfect guidance - the Koran.
That seems to be more compatible with verse 22:78.
The end of verse 2:185 seems to give a purpose of fasting during the -scorching full moon-,
2:185 ... and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
The Koran is the guidance - verse 2:2.
Quote from: mmkhan on April 25, 2011, 10:18:54 AM
As I read from above posts people are getting back to 'event for counting time' so what is the different if we take it a month? Is there any problem it translating 'Shahr' as 'Month'?
Verse 2:185 seems to be very clear and precise:
... Therefore, whoever of you has witnessed the full moon, then let him fast
it.
Only the duration of the full moon itself has to be fasted.
The verse does not say - when witnessing the full moon then one has to fast it (three days) and a number of extra days, while that number is not given in the Book.
Completing the count as mentioned in verse 2:185 is due to the people who want to fast their missed day(s) - a count until three is also a count - as is a count until ten.
The word -ma'doodat- of verse 2:184 refers to a few days at most, that is structurally different from a lunar-cycle of 29/30 days. That is a strong proof for that the word month is not indicated in verse 2:185.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam siki,
Quote from: siki on April 25, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
Dear brother MMkhan,
you need to go through the whole thread from beginning, all of it, in it you will find answers to all of your queries , every thing is discussed many a times, over and over, in detail. And please dedicate a few days to grasp the idea.
siki
Thank you brother, inshaAllah, I will go through it in detail.
May Allah guide us all to His true path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Quote from: ayman on April 24, 2011, 06:27:35 PM
Since "shahr" is an event like menstruation is an event, the same wording is used in both 2:226 and 2:228. The number of days will vary between 29.5x3 (if separation happens right before the full moon) and 29.5x3+28.5 (if separation happens right after the full moon).
The "ten" can be understood in light of the following passages 46:25 and 2:233:
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا
وَالْوَالِدَاتُ يُرْضِعْنَ أَوْلَادَهُنَّ حَوْلَيْنِ كَامِلَيْنِ لِمَنْ أَرَادَ أَنْ يُتِمَّ الرَّضَاعَةَ
The word "7awl" is the time it takes for something to mature (the normal human gestation period). Thus the two passages can be reconciled using the following formula:
10 + 2(10) = 30
The time between 10 full-moons is 29.5x9= 265.5 and the normal human gestation period is 38 weeks or 266 days. The only way to reconcile those two passages with the scientifc reality of human gestation period is if "shahr" was an event (the full-moon) and not a continuous period of 29 or 30 days. Otherwise, the human pregnancy would be 300 days, which we know if false!
Peace Ayman,
Time between 10 full-moons varies according to what you wrote and depends on the day of event?
If event is day before the full-moon then time = 9 x 29.53059 = 265.77531 days
If event is day after the full-moon then time = (29.53059 - 1) + (9 x 29.53059) = 294.3059 days
(2:233) and the mothers shall suckle/ yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ)
If ḥawlayni means 2 pregnancy times (lunar month x 9 = 265.77531 days) = 1.45533737 years
(2:240) and who die from you and leave behind wives a will for their wives provision for al-ḥawli (ٱلْحَوْلِ)
If al-ḥawli means the duration of a pregnancy lunar month x 9 = 265.77531 days
These can be reconciled which have same word and substitution used to form an equation?
(46:15) and bearing of him and his weaning/wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) thirty shahran
(31:14) and his weaning/wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) in āmayni (عَامَيْنِ)
If āmayni means two lunar years or 24 lunar months then equation becomes?
And bearing of him and his weaning in āmayni (two lunar years /24 months) = 30 months
30 - 24 = 6 months (bearing/weight of him) felt after 3 months when the baby weighs 1 ounce.
Salaam brother TS171,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 26, 2011, 12:51:49 AM
The word -ma'doodat- of verse 2:184 refers to a few days at most, that is structurally different from a lunar-cycle of 29/30 days. That is a strong proof for that the word month is not indicated in verse 2:185.
No no no, I think you misunderstood me completely brother. Let me tell you what I understand and what I don't.
Ayyamam maadoodaat is 3 days [fasting] = It is very clear to me.
Shahr refers to Full Moon or Phases of Moon = Not yet clear to me.
Shaharu Ramadhan is hottest month = This is how I understand it.
It seems very simple and clear to me this way. But I got stuck in my understand as follows:
Whoever witness the hottest month [Shaharu Ramadhan] shall fast for 3 days [ayyamam maadoodaat] of it. But which 3 days of that month is the problem. We cannot take any 3 days of that month because, 'if you are sick or you are traveling' [Inkumtum mardha aw ala safarin] make no sense then.
So, I am thinking that 'Shahr' may refer to 'Full Moon' but I am not yet satisfied as I did not get any solid proof.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 26, 2011, 12:51:49 AM
Verse 2:185 seems to be very clear and precise:
... Therefore, whoever of you has witnessed the full moon, then let him fast it.
Only the duration of the full moon itself has to be fasted.
The verse does not say - when witnessing the full moon then one has to fast it (three days) and a number of extra days, while that number is not given in the Book.
Completing the count as mentioned in verse 2:185 is due to the people who want to fast their missed day(s) - a count until three is also a count - as is a count until ten.
The word -ma'doodat- of verse 2:184 refers to a few days at most, that is structurally different from a lunar-cycle of 29/30 days. That is a strong proof for that the word month is not indicated in verse 2:185.
Peace -- translate below as three or can it be a relatively little number?
(2:184:2) days maʿdūdātin (مَّعْدُودَٰتٍ) so who is from you sick or on journey faʿiddatun (فَعِدَّةٌ) from days other
(2:203:5) and remember Allah in days maʿdūdātin (مَّعْدُودَٰتٍ)
(2:80:7) and they say, "Never will touch us the Fire only days maʿdūdatan (مَّعْدُودَةً)"
(3:24:9) they say, "Never will touch us the Fire only days maʿdūdātin (مَّعْدُودَٰتٍ)
(12:20:5) dirhams maʿdūdatin (مَعْدُودَةٍ)
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on April 26, 2011, 07:46:30 AM
No no no, I think you misunderstood me completely brother. Let me tell you what I understand and what I don't.
Ayyamam maadoodaat is 3 days [fasting] = It is very clear to me.
Shahr refers to Full Moon or Phases of Moon = Not yet clear to me.
Shaharu Ramadhan is hottest month = This is how I understand it.
It seems very simple and clear to me this way. But I got stuck in my understand as follows:
Whoever witness the hottest month [Shaharu Ramadhan] shall fast for 3 days [ayyamam maadoodaat] of it. But which 3 days of that month is the problem. We cannot take any 3 days of that month because, 'if you are sick or you are traveling' [Inkumtum mardha aw ala safarin] make no sense then.
So, I am thinking that 'Shahr' may refer to 'Full Moon' but I am not yet satisfied as I did not get any solid proof.
The word -ma'dootan- can be 3 as seen in verse 2:203, but in other verses it means -a few-.
If -shahr ramadan- is read as the -scorching full moon- (also because it is the full moon which is in general most red of all full moons during the year) then the meaning of 3 days becomes most relevant - because the full moon lasts 3 days.
This is how we can witness the full moon and fast
it, according to verse 2:185.
May be it is good to consider that verse 2:189 only mentions the communal event of the -hajj- that is regulated by the -ahillati-, be it the crescent moons or phases of the moon - and not the other communal event of the fasting.
So the -shahr ramadan- has appearingly nothing to do with - phases of the moon - with a whole month - or with the crescent moon.
This supports that -shahr ramadan- is only the relevant full moon itself.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace
Quote from: SEid on April 26, 2011, 08:05:55 AM
Peace -- translate below as three or can it be a relatively little number?
(2:184:2) days maʿdūdātin (مَّعْدُودَٰتٍ) so who is from you sick or on journey faʿiddatun (فَعِدَّةٌ) from days other
(2:203:5) and remember Allah in days maʿdūdātin (مَّعْدُودَٰتٍ)
(2:80:7) and they say, "Never will touch us the Fire only days maʿdūdatan (مَّعْدُودَةً)"
(3:24:9) they say, "Never will touch us the Fire only days maʿdūdātin (مَّعْدُودَٰتٍ)
(12:20:5) dirhams maʿdūdatin (مَعْدُودَةٍ)
Verse 2:203 - ma'doodat- as 3.
The other verses as few.
If -shahr ramadan- is read as the -scorching full moon- then the meaning of -ma'doodat- as 3 becomes most relevant - because the full moon lasts 3 days.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: SEid on April 26, 2011, 07:43:56 AMTime between 10 full-moons varies according to what you wrote and depends on the day of event?
If event is day before the full-moon then time = 9 x 29.53059 = 265.77531 days
If event is day after the full-moon then time = (29.53059 - 1) + (9 x 29.53059) = 294.3059 days
(2:233) and the mothers shall suckle/ yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ)
If ḥawlayni means 2 pregnancy times (lunar month x 9 = 265.77531 days) = 1.45533737 years
(2:240) and who die from you and leave behind wives a will for their wives provision for al-ḥawli (ٱلْحَوْلِ)
If al-ḥawli means the duration of a pregnancy lunar month x 9 = 265.77531 days
These can be reconciled which have same word and substitution used to form an equation?
(46:15) and bearing of him and his weaning/wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) thirty shahran
(31:14) and his weaning/wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) in āmayni (عَامَيْنِ)
If āmayni means two lunar years or 24 lunar months then equation becomes?
And bearing of him and his weaning in āmayni (two lunar years /24 months) = 30 months
30 - 24 = 6 months (bearing/weight of him) felt after 3 months when the baby weighs 1 ounce.
Firstly, 31:14 says "fi"/inside two years. So it means < 2years. This reconciles 31:14 and 2:233 and 46:15 since 20 shahr is < 2 years.
Secondly, it is impossible for the pregnancy to be 9 lunar months since the formulas we need to solve are as follows (W=Weaning and G=Gestation):
(1) From 46:15_______ G + W = 30
(2) From 2:233_______ W = 2G
If G=9 then W would be equal 18 in (2) and substituting 18 for W in (1) would give a pregnancy of 12 lunar months!
On the other hand, if we use simple algebra to solve (1) and (2) together then we get:
G + 2G = 30 -----> 3G=30 --------> G=10
There is no other possible answer to this simple algebra problem.
As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."The great reading gives the same max as modern science.
On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!
As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2:233 and 46:15 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the
only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 26, 2011, 01:15:59 PMVerse 2:203 - ma'doodat- as 3.
The other verses as few.
If -shahr ramadan- is read as the -scorching full moon- then the meaning of -ma'doodat- as 3 becomes most relevant - because the full moon lasts 3 days.
The word "ma'doodat" always means "few", in other words 3 to 10. This is why in 2:184-185 we are told to complete the count of "ma'doodat". This means completing the count of 3-10, which can only mean reaching 10.
The "shahr" is not a 3 day period but is simply the event to start counting the 10 days from. You don't go outside and witness it first for a 3 day period so that you can fast. Remember "witnessed" in 2:185 is perfect past tense and thus "shahr" can only be an event and not a 3 day or a 30 day period.
Peace,
Ayman
salam all,
i think if we really consider how our understanding of tradition do shape our understanding of language then we might really consider to think outside the box.
and since we all agree that we cannot take but the quran as a source then we might want to consider our understanding of certain words in it ,and we must take the best meaning that goes with all the Ayas in the "Quran"
and since i do believe that the quran is never a book on paper but only in read form i would like to consider one thing(think out side the box that has been placed for so long on our understanding of the language and please trust that Allah is the only teacher through AL Quran.
I could go on to tell you what is shahr and what is ramadan,even i could tell you what is sujud ,and what is tasbeah too.
but first do try to see that the moon cycles you are considering has no proof from the quran,and who said that ramadan happens once a year at a certain time.it is something completely different.
i can go on and explain it,but consider first that most of the words that you hear from the quran has been tempered with through ages of religios misunderstanding.
sorry if i offended any one that was not my perception ,but i have seen that most learned in religion to misunderstand even the word sujud.and please i dont speculate.
salam alaykum
Peace Ayman
Quote from: ayman on April 26, 2011, 10:16:06 PM
The word "ma'doodat" always means "few", in other words 3 to 10. This is why in 2:184-185 we are told to complete the count of "ma'doodat". This means completing the count of 3-10, which can only mean reaching 10.
The "shahr" is not a 3 day period but is simply the event to start counting the 10 days from. You don't go outside and witness it first for a 3 day period so that you can fast. Remember "witnessed" in 2:185 is perfect past tense and thus "shahr" can only be an event and not a 3 day or a 30 day period.
The Koran does not state that -completing the count- can only mean counting until ten - a count until three can also be the count that has to be completed.
For instance the count of the -restricted full moons- would be until four - also within the -ma'doodat- range-.
The wording of 2:185 -completing the count- seems rather directed towards the people who missed the standard fasting days (or one or two of them). They can fast other days and have to complete the count (knowingly that the period of the full moon lasts three days) - probably because they miss the direct indicator - the full moon itself.
The wording of verse 2:185 seems to be clear: the person that witnessed the full moon should fast
it. (without keeping to look at it)
The event of the full moon is according to this wording the time-frame of the fasting period.
These words do not indicate that one has to start to fast a number of days that is not mentioned in the Koran.
In verse 2:185 one hardly can find any proof that one has to fast 3 days (the duration of a full moon) plus 7 days.
The wording -should fast
it- is complete and precise - it refers to the duration of the witnessed full moon itself.
Accepting this seems to take away the relevance of the subject if a count -ma'doodat- can or should only be until 10 or until another low number - for this we can not find any information in the Koran.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother,
Quote from: ayman on April 26, 2011, 10:16:06 PM
The word "ma'doodat" always means "few", in other words 3 to 10. This is why in 2:184-185 we are told to complete the count of "ma'doodat". This means completing the count of 3-10, which can only mean reaching 10.
I cannot see that, can you please let me know how you get that understanding? There is already a word used to 'complete' in 2:187 is 'atimmoo' same as in 2:196 and that is referring to a single day of fasting in 2:187 and for Hajj and Umrah in 2:196 to complete.
Can you also point me out how you get madoodaat means UPTO 10 only?
May Allah guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
oh i see some to be misguided by it as well.
please could any one explain to me what is the meaning of al shahr from the quran ,it has been used in so many ayas this word yet we are speculating on what it could mean through our speculation.
please a simple question what is al shahr.
and only from the quran.
as for what has been happening here i only see theories,that is nice ,but the quran needs not to be theorized it is clear in all form so why dont we all look at its clarity.
once we know what is shahr alot will be clearer.
thank you salam.
Salaam
In the matter of -completing the count- of days that have to be fasted - three or three plus seven, verse 2:196 is interesting.
2:196
... But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten ...
This verse that is about the -hajj- mentions both a 3 days fast (communal during the -hajj- for a special group of people) and an individual form of fast of 7 days, as a follow-up when one had arrived at home. The ten was to be made complete.
Regarding the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- not such a dual form of fasting is found in verse 2:184. The wording of 3 days plus 7 days is missing.
This might mean that:
- completing the count of 10 days of fasting was relevant for a special group of participants of the -hajj- after arrival at home.
- this regulation of 3+7 days is not linked to the fasting of -shahr ramadan-, since the Koran does not mention this.
- the completing of the count by the ones who missed the fast (or missed 1 or 2 days) during the -scorching full moon- indicates: as a follow up - completing the count of 3 days - the duration of the full moon, since verse 2:185 prescribes to fast the full moon itself.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace brother mmkhan,
Quote from: mmkhan on April 27, 2011, 05:04:40 AMI cannot see that, can you please let me know how you get that understanding? There is already a word used to 'complete' in 2:187 is 'atimmoo' same as in 2:196 and that is referring to a single day of fasting in 2:187 and for Hajj and Umrah in 2:196 to complete.
Can you also point me out how you get madoodaat means UPTO 10 only?
Please read the original Arabic.
In 2:185 you will see
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ (and
complete the count).
In 2:196 you will see
تِلْكَ عَشَرَةٌ كَامِلَةٌ (this is a
complete ten).
It is the same Arabic root "KML" (complete), used as a verb in 2:185 and the other time in 2:196 as an adjective to clearly describe that the "ten" is the completion of the count of a few.
Finally, for those who after all the clear signs are still confused or choose to confuse themselves, I am 100% certain that the god knows that any average person is aware that 3+7=10 and since the god is not addressing the mentally retarded in the great reading, the
only reason to state the obvious in 2:196 is to clarify that completing the count of a few is indeed 10.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam
Quote from: ayman on April 27, 2011, 10:29:26 PM
Finally, for those who after all the clear signs are still confused or choose to confuse themselves, I am 100% certain that the god knows that any average person is aware that 3+7=10 and since the god is not addressing the mentally retarded in the great reading, the only reason to state the obvious in 2:196 is to clarify that completing the count of a few is indeed 10.
This sentence seems not to contain any koranic evidence.
It is rather an assumption that -completing a count of a few- should always be until ten.
From verse 2:196 one can learn that a count until ten is an example of a count that completes a count of a few - not that it is the only way of completing a count of a few.
It would be very particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
4:92 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
58:4 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
5:89 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2:196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
To assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and should assume from sources next to the Koran that a count has to be until 10 seems to be particular - since the details of the verses mentioned above.
Verse 2:185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
2:185 - The -shahr ramadan-, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast
it.
Whoever is ill or traveling, then the
same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and
so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
1. the time-frame of the communal fast is given in detail - the duration of the full moon itself (3 days).
2. the principle of completing the count is only directed towards a special group of people, those who missed the fast of the full moon or one or two days of it. They should complete the count by fasting other days - knowingly that the duration of a full moon is three days.
Until now there has not been shown any koranic evidence that could overrule this clear regulation of verse 2:185 - a communal fast of three days - the duration of -shahr ramadan-.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Ts, peace
shahar (full moon) can not be for three days, it is an event (marker) and hence only one moon out of these so called full moons can be designated as a "Shahar"
Moreover there are important clues pointing towards "complete count" as a 10
siki
Quote from: ayman on April 26, 2011, 10:07:05 PM
Peace Eid,
Firstly, 31:14 says "fi"/inside two years. So it means < 2years. This reconciles 31:14 and 2:233 and 46:15 since 20 shahr is < 2 years.
Secondly, it is impossible for the pregnancy to be 9 lunar months since the formulas we need to solve are as follows (W=Weaning and G=Gestation):
(1) From 46:15_______ G + W = 30
(2) From 2:233_______ W = 2G
If G=9 then W would be equal 18 in (2) and substituting 18 for W in (1) would give a pregnancy of 12 lunar months!
On the other hand, if we use simple algebra to solve (1) and (2) together then we get:
G + 2G = 30 -----> 3G=30 --------> G=10
There is no other possible answer to this simple algebra problem.
As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."
The great reading gives the same max as modern science.
On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!
As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2:233 and 46:15 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Yes ?in? also means inside, within, or < 2 in most languages and why impossible?
(2:233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ)
(31:14) wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) in āmayni (عَامَيْنِ)
(46:15) and bearing of him wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) thirty shahran
Gestation is up to 10 lunar months 29.53059 = 295 days according to science and link you posted, therefore:
(2:233) fiṣāluhu = 2 gestations/20 months
(31:14) fiṣāluhu/20 months < 2 years
(46:15) gestation/10 months + fiṣāluhu/20 months = 30 months!
That is if yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) is same as fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) or are they dissimilar terms?
(2:233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ) for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raḍāʿata (ٱلرَّضَاعَةَ)
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that.
So if they both desire
fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them.
And if you want to ask another woman to suckle/tastarḍiʿū your child so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner.
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer.
Peace Siki
Quote from: siki on April 28, 2011, 03:00:32 AM
shahar (full moon) can not be for three days, it is an event (marker) and hence only one moon out of these so called full moons can be designated as a "Shahar"
Moreover there are important clues pointing towards "complete count" as a 10
An event can last for instance three days - as seems to be the case with the full moon.
At the moment I do not find any koranic evidence that the -shahr- as in -shahr ramadan- (verse 2:185) is only a marker of the beginning of a fasting-period.
The wording of verse 2:185 is very clear - Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast
it.
If the -shahr- would only be a marker of the start of the fast, why is the wording of the verse not indicating that?
The Koran has no lack of words - the wording -beginning to fast- and the number of extra days of the fast would be necessary in the verse to understand -shahr- just as a marker of the beginning.
The command of completing the count is only directed towards the persons who missed the fast of the -shahr ramadan- or one or two days of it.
I have not found any evidence in the Koran that completing the ma'doodat count means only a count until 10.
Verse 2:196 does not say that all the counts ma'doodat should be 3+7=10, this seems only valid for a special group participants of the -hajj-.
So may be you can give compelling koranic evidence that all the ma'doodat counts have to be until 10.
I really do not find it in verse 2:196 or any other verse.
If this evidence is not found - we should take care not to make our own rules, by declaring that the ma'doodat count can only be until 10.
I missed your comment on following:
-quote-
It would be very particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
4:92 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
58:4 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
5:89 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2:196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
To assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and should assume from sources next to the Koran that a count has to be until 10 seems to be particular - since the details of the verses mentioned above.
Verse 2:185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed. -unquote-
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: SEid on April 28, 2011, 07:58:14 AMYes ?in? also means inside, within, or < 2 in most languages and why impossible?
(2:233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ)
(31:14) wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) in āmayni (عَامَيْنِ)
(46:15) and bearing of him wafiṣāluhu (وَفِصَٰلُهُۥ) thirty shahran
Gestation is up to 10 lunar months 29.53059 = 295 days according to science and link you posted, therefore:
(2:233) fiṣāluhu = 2 gestations/20 months
(31:14) fiṣāluhu/20 months < 2 years
(46:15) gestation/10 months + fiṣāluhu/20 months = 30 months!
That is if yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) is same as fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) or are they dissimilar terms?
(2:233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ) for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raḍāʿata (ٱلرَّضَاعَةَ)
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that.
So if they both desire fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them.
And if you want to ask another woman to suckle/tastarḍiʿū your child so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner.
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer.
You are assuming that 46:15 and 2:233 apply to the rare maximum gestation period and not the normal. The great reading is not talking about the maximum rare gestation period. It is talking about what is normal. Also, please see what I copied in blue above. This maximum is due to the way modern science calculates pregnancy based on the event of the last menstruation and variation of when actual conception occurred relative to this event (like the full-moon is an event).
So interpreting "shahr" as full-moon covers the normal while allowing for the range up to the max that modern science determined. On the other hand, the traditional definition of "shahr" as a 29.5 days lunar month will always result in the max of 294 and never the normal, which is false. This is why it is impossible. It is a physical impossibility that every human gestation is the max 294 days as your interpretation would imply.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 28, 2011, 12:19:43 PMAn event can last for instance three days - as seems to be the case with the full moon.
At the moment I do not find any koranic evidence that the -shahr- as in -shahr ramadan- (verse 2:185) is only a marker of the beginning of a fasting-period.
The wording of verse 2:185 is very clear - Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it.
In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 5:06AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Concerning the discussion about duration of suckling and pregnancy.
There seems to be a relevant difference between suckling/yur'dina - verse 2:233 and weaning/fisalu - verse 2:233, 31:14 and 46:15.
Verse 46:15
... his mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his weaning lasts thirty full moons.
According to verse 31:14 the weaning/fisalu (the process of gradual separation from the breast) should be ended before two years have passed: -amayni-
According to verse 2:233 the suckling/yur'dina should last: -hawlayni- probably two periods of pregnancy.
So if -amayni- means 2 solar years then verse 46:15 remains to be researched, since the usage of the word -weaning/fisalu- and the absence of the word -suckling/yur'dina-.
period until the end of weaning/fisalu: 2 solar years - 730 days (2x365)
pregnancy: the period between 10 full moons - 266 days (9x29.5)
the total of this should be 30 shahr - 856 days (29x29.5)
730 + 266 = 996
There seems to be a surplus of about 140 days.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: ayman on April 28, 2011, 01:28:39 PMIn Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 5:06AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
From this we can not induce a general rule - since for instance -isha- is a broader time-frame in which -salaat el isha- has to be done.
The same can be said about -shahr ramadan-, it provides for a time-frame of three days that can be fasted.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
I would say, even dawn is a period, stretching from , first light to sun rise.
siki
salam i will let you on what you could not wait to see,
as for shahr it is a mistake to think it is the full moon,
actually ashahr has two meanings in the quran and it reveals again the mircle of the quran.
as for the year having twelve shahrs it means twelve locations in the maps of the stars.
we do have twelve of those subhana allah.
and hear those locations do mean times too,since every location would need exactly the same time to ellapse.so shahr is three meaning in one.
phase,location,and time when it is to that matter of time it is one of twelve observed in the ski.as for al ahillat it has nothing to do with the moon has the quran even mentioned that al ahilat is the moon,why do you take it for granted that it is the moon while it is the stars in relation to each other please look. for one can look once at the sky and now in what part of the year he is in.that moon cycle that moslems has come up with is so lame.
as for ashhur hurum,well they are locations in mecca four locations that one has to visit so that he has preformed haj.
and that can happen any time of the year.no specific time in the quran.
seriously now do you think that it would be kept out of the quran if it was for some time.
as for ramadan my friends there i will tell you next time ,for who ever wants to know.
salam alaykum.
Salaam,
Quote from: mohamad itani on April 28, 2011, 10:01:42 PM
salam i will let you on what you could not wait to see,
as for shahr it is a mistake to think it is the full moon,
actually ashahr has two meanings in the quran and it reveals again the mircle of the quran.
as for the year having twelve shahrs it means twelve locations in the maps of the stars.
we do have twelve of those subhana allah.
and hear those locations do mean times too,since every location would need exactly the same time to ellapse.so shahr is three meaning in one.
phase,location,and time when it is to that matter of time it is one of twelve observed in the ski.as for al ahillat it has nothing to do with the moon has the quran even mentioned that al ahilat is the moon,why do you take it for granted that it is the moon while it is the stars in relation to each other please look. for one can look once at the sky and now in what part of the year he is in.that moon cycle that moslems has come up with is so lame.
as for ashhur hurum,well they are locations in mecca four locations that one has to visit so that he has preformed haj.
and that can happen any time of the year.no specific time in the quran.
seriously now do you think that it would be kept out of the quran if it was for some time.
as for ramadan my friends there i will tell you next time ,for who ever wants to know.
salam alaykum.
You used the word 'quran' 5 times in your above post, claiming this and that, but no aayat quoted? Put forward your evidence please.
May Allah guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam brother ayman,
Quote from: ayman on April 27, 2011, 10:29:26 PM
Please read the original Arabic.
In 2:185 you will see وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ (and complete the count).
In 2:196 you will see تِلْكَ عَشَرَةٌ كَامِلَةٌ (this is a complete ten).
There are possibilities otherwise.
-
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ in 2:185 is referring to those who are sick or travelling, they have to complete their count.
-
فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ is just the counting from other days.
If you notice, the key words here are not
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ but
أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ for fasting. So,
أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ is not referring to 10 but 3 as per 2:203.
What do you think brother?
May Allah guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam,
Quote from: ayman on April 28, 2011, 01:28:39 PM
In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 5:06AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
I agree with you.
May Allah guide us all to His true path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
ok let us go back few hundred years ,where traveling by day in the dessert was so hot,but even the great danger is that traveling by day you make you loose your way for there in the dessert all looked the same,sand dunes every where are similar.
but at night the we do have the same problem no way to go but there is no sun and less heat ,but wait a second the old trick is to use the stars my freind for navigation.
yes it must be that the stars where used as signs for travel so that we dont loose our way,so they must know about those stars,
wow,aint that some thing.
then if we observe closer we see that the stars sometimes are together in one night especially in winter summer and fall season,they do share the sky,the north stars the south starts west and east. in many cases during the year they are together.
but spring has something very weird to it,it has four stars that each last one month and they dont come together,they are alone.
each star is on its own,or a group of stars in may is different then the group of stars in june and they dont appear together at the same time in any given period,that is why they are called "HURUM" each month in the spring there is HURUM stars that come alone and dont interact with the other stars.and they do share equality in length of time they only last a month each not more not less.
SUBHANA ALLAH ,even a kid then would know the stars else he will get lost in the dessert if needed to travel so it was one of the few things they needed to know.
but you can keep with your moon if you want !
as for my proof of the quran ,well not alot of ayas about ashhur and al shahr ,look it up really does not need to be stated i can write them down for you ,since they are very few ,but i am sure you know the ayas.you have been mentioning them all along.
Quote from: siki on April 28, 2011, 07:56:21 PMI would say, even dawn is a period, stretching from , first light to sun rise.
Yes, but even if we take it as the period from first light to sunrise there is nothing in the great reading telling us to do the "salat" exactly from first light to sunrise. So if you start your "salat" just before sunrise and it stretches for an hour after sunrise, it is still "salat al fajr". So again, the action is simply called by its marker.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: mmkhan on April 29, 2011, 05:03:59 AMThere are possibilities otherwise.
- وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ in 2:185 is referring to those who are sick or travelling, they have to complete their count.
- فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ is just the counting from other days.
If you notice, the key words here are not وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ but أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ for fasting. So, أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ is not referring to 10 but 3 as per 2:203.
What do you think brother?
May the god guide us all to the straight path.
Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression "
فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied together:
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
You shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful. To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
2:203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2:203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2:196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
Peace,
Ayman
Salam Ayam,but what do you mean by salat.
i know this could be another discussion then intended,but what is salat?
how is it performed ,what is done ,and how is it done,what is to be said ,how is perfomed.
as for the fasting for haj is different from fasting in ramadan,it is all connected to knowing what is ramadan,
i think much thought is needed,and the only way to find out is through simplicity,ALLah is all knowing.
salam alaykum.
Quote from: ayman on April 29, 2011, 12:24:27 PM
Yes, but even if we take it as the period from first light to sunrise there is nothing in the great reading telling us to do the "salat" exactly from first light to sunrise. So if you start your "salat" just before sunrise and it stretches for an hour after sunrise, it is still "salat al fajr". So again, the action is simply called by its marker.
-Fajr- and -isha- are rather time-frames in which the -salat- should be done.
So the beginning and ending of these periods could be seen as markers - not only the start of a period.
Verse 4:103 indicates that the -salat- is at prescribed times.
The time-frames of -salat- are given by the Koran.
-Salaat el fajr- should be done only during -fajr-, that is the koranic time-frame.
If one crosses the time-border while doing the -salat- (-taraf-, verse 11:114) then one can not be sure if the part after sunset still can be called -salat el fajr-, if one trangresses consciously a clear time-frame frome the Koran.
In analogy - the fasting of -shahr ramadan-, verse 2:185 clearly gives the time-frame of the fast - the duration of the full moon itself - 3 days.
2:185 ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast
it...
The start of the full moon is the marker of the beginning of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the end of the fast.
Within this time-frame there are periods that one should fast (from the start of -fajr- until -lail-) and that one should not fast (the night of the fast).
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: ayman on April 29, 2011, 12:38:43 PM
Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression "فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied together:
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
You shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
This way of reasoning seems not to be binding.
In verse 2:185 two groups of peope are mentioned:
1 - the ones that fast the -shahr ramadan-
2 - the ones that fast other days for compensation - they have to fast then a count of other days.
This does not imply or exclude that the first group had to count as well - the first group could simply keep on with the moon or read from a mooncalendar. They could can also count the number of days of a full moon.
This seems not to be a structural issue.
The real issue is: until which number the count should be: 3 or 10.
Both groups can magnify God and remember the gift of the Koran to mankind - only the timing is different.
Quote from: ayman on April 29, 2011, 12:38:43 PM
2:203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2:203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2:196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
2:203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2:196 - a number until 10.
The issue remains that verse 2:196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
When the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.
It is interesting that verse 2:196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2:185.
The 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2:196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.
It depends on the context what -completing the count ma'doodat- means.
In verse 2:196 a count of 10.
In verse 2:185 a count of 3 - since the wording: ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast
it... (full moon is a period of three days).
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Ts ,
peace, how do you determine that full moon is for 3 days? why not 5 , or 7 ?
siki
Salaam TS and all,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 30, 2011, 02:31:07 AM
2:203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2:196 - a number until 10.
The issue remains that verse 2:196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
When the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.
I totally agree with you and this is exactly the way how I understand it.
Quote
It is interesting that verse 2:196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2:185.
The 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2:196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.
It depends on the context what -completing the count ma'doodat- means.
In verse 2:196 a count of 10.
In verse 2:185 a count of 3 - since the wording: ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it... (full moon is a period of three days).
:bravo:
Nicely said brother, mashaAllah.
May Allah guide us all to His true path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam ayman,
Quote from: ayman on April 29, 2011, 12:38:43 PM
Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression "فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied together:
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
You shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
Yes, I agree with you brother. 'Waw' between them clarifies that it is not in relation with only who are sick or travelling.
I understood that
فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ is simply mentions 'so, counting is from other days', clearly mentioned for those who are sick or travelling, and
وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ is 'and to complete the count' is referring to both who fast during Ramadhan and who are sick and travelling.
Quote
2:203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2:203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2:196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
Now, how do we understand how much is the count? We have look together 2:196 and 2:203. Please note that 2:196 does not use the word
الْعِدَّةَ[/color] that means count, it only uses the word
كَامِلَةٌ[/color] that means 'complete', this does not mean that whenever the word 'complete' is used that is referring to 'completing the count of fast', but it simply means complete as in:
5:3
حرمت عليكم الميتة والدم ولحم الخنزير وما أهل لغير الله به والمنخنقة والموقوذة والمتردية والنطيحة وما أكل السبع إلا ما ذكيتم وما ذبح على النصب وأن تستقسموا بالأزلم ذلكم فسق اليوم يئس الذين كفروا من دينكم فلا تخشوهم واخشون اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي ورضيت لكم الإسلم دينا فمن اضطر في مخمصة غير متجانف لإثم فإن الله غفور رحيم5:3 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than Allah, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
'Complete' is used without counting.
2:233
والولدت يرضعن أولدهن حولين كاملين لمن أراد أن يتم الرضاعة وعلى المولود له رزقهن وكسوتهن بالمعروف لا تكلف نفس إلا وسعها لا تضار ولدة بولدها ولا مولود له بولده وعلى الوارث مثل ذلك فإن أرادا فصالا عن تراض منهما وتشاور فلا جناح عليهما وإن أردتم أن تسترضعوا أولدكم فلا جناح عليكم إذا سلمتم ما ءاتيتم بالمعروف واتقوا الله واعلموا أن الله بما تعملون بصير2:233 And the divorced mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. A soul is not burdened except with what it can bear. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and counsel, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of Allah, and know that Allah is watching over what you do.
Here period of 'completion' is two years.
16:25
ليحملوا أوزارهم كاملة يوم القيمة ومن أوزار الذين يضلونهم بغير علم ألا ساء ما يزرون16:25 They will carry their burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also from the burdens of those whom they misguided without knowledge. Evil indeed is what they bear.
Again 'complete' is used without the number of counting.
This is how the word
كَامِلَةٌ is used in 2:196 without the word counting. As 2:233 [above mentioned] refers to the only 'completion of period mentioned in it', 2:196 is also refers to the only 'completion of period mentioned in it' and it has nothing to do with Ramadhan. This is how I understand it brother.
This is clear to me, but still my old question 'Shahr' being 'Full moon' remains :)
May Allah guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
reading from the blog here one can see that we are only trying to find out yes ,but what we should really do is simply take the quran literaly.
meaning word for word.
the three day fast is done in haj while the ramadan should be fasted as a shahr.
it is never said in the quran that ramadan is fasted for three days.remmember we dont need a scientist to explain our quran than we are in the same black age moslems are today.
i would suggest to go back to word shahr.how did any one conclude that it is the full moon when the quran did not state so.
i dont find proof it is the full moon.i would say that i will exclude that meaning for now ,until further evidence is brought from the quran.
please concluding is good ,but any thing not from the quran then it is not right to really expand on it.
so i would say the full moon prophecy is not right.
thank you and salam alaykum,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 30, 2011, 02:31:07 AM
2:203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2:196 - a number until 10.
quote from
mmkhanNow, how do we understand how much is the count? We have look together 2:196 and 2:203. Please note that 2:196 does not use the word الْعِدَّةَ[/color] that means count, it only uses the word كَامِلَةٌ[/color] that means 'complete', this does not mean that whenever the word 'complete' is used that is referring to 'completing the count of fast', end quote
Since this finding of brother mmkhan I have to correct the assumption that a -count ma'doodat- can be until 10, according to the Koran.
- Verse 2:196 does not contain the word -'adat-.
- Verse 2:203 contains a form of the word -'adat-.
So one can only say from verse 2:196 that -ayyam ma'doodat- means 3 as a standard and can mean 2 or somewhat more than 3.
From this verse one can not deduce that one could stay 10 days during the -hajj-.
Some reasons for the assumption that verse 2:196 does not explain verse 2:185 in any way:
1. Verse 2:196 regulates the fast of only a special group of participants of the -hajj- and not the fast of the believers in general, during the communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
2. Verse 2:196 rather indicates a private count until 7 so that one can add this up to the 3 communal days fasted during the -hajj-, that makes of course a complete 10.
3. Verse 2:185 contains the wording -completing the count-, verse 2:196 does not contain the word -count-.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: siki on April 30, 2011, 03:19:24 AM
peace, how do you determine that full moon is for 3 days? why not 5 , or 7 ?
Verses 2:184 and 2:185 contain two requirements of the duration of the fast of -shahr ramadan-
Verse 2:184 informs us that the fast lasts: -ayyaman ma'doodatin-, the plural of more than two.
Verse 2:185 informs us that the fast is within the time-frame (between the two markers of the beginning and ending of the full moon) of the full moon.
- ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it...
The full moon is from earth's perspective never really full - when the sun, earth and moon are perfectly in line, there would be a lunar-eclipse.
Watching with the eye - a coverage of 98% is seen as a total full moon.
A mooncalendar shows that a coverage of 98% lasts about three days.
It is noticable with the eye at the fourth day, the first day after the full moon: that it is not full anymore.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
ok let us say it is the full moon for now ,but which full moon will that be.
like what is the time. is it the summer as claimed in this blog,i dont think there is enough proof.
salam
Quote from: mohamad itani on April 30, 2011, 09:27:12 PM
ok let us say it is the full moon for now ,but which full moon will that be.
like what is the time. is it the summer as claimed in this blog,i dont think there is enough proof.
The Koran indicates that the -shahr ramadan- is during the warmest period of the year.
As can be read in the first post of this thread - the article.
quote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.
However, one can indirectly verify the meaning. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the second half of the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only separators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly after 9:82, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending at that time and from 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended so that provides an additional link between "shahr ramadhan" and "al-shahr al-7aram". Hence, circumstantial evidence from the great reading supports that "al-shahr al-7aram"/"shahr ramadhan" is a hot time of the year and confirms the dictionary's meaning.
Now 2:185 contains the complete information that we need to know when to start the abstinence. It is the complete information irrespective of what calendar system each nation or group uses because it doesn't rely on any calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot.
end quote --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This information indicates a fast during the warmest period of the year.
This seems to be the best way of reading - in the Koran until now is not found any compelling proof for the fasting of the full moon -ramadan- during another time of the year.
The word -ramadan-, meaning -scorching heat- seems to be compelling in this matter.
Any other option requires koranic proof that indicates otherwise.
Verse 2:185 indicates to fast the -shahr ramadan- itself, a period of the full moon - three days.
Three holydays: to fast, rest and sleep (apart from the middle prayer) from -fajr- until -layl- and to break the fast, be active during the -layl- until -fajr-.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
i seem to agree most with truth seeker,
ramadan after autumn solice the full moon.three days
and they are a time for prayer,
this is the best explanation i can go with i think.thakn you .
one question when is ashhur hurum.and al shahr el haram.and if el shahr was only full moon then they used to stop fighting for three days and then go back to fighting,so it is four month with three days of nonfighting in every month.i dontknow but that does not seem to make sense.
i dont think i want to trust in dictionaries they seem to be the most misleading.
as for what kind of fasting.in al haj is it fasting from food or speaking.it is not stated and how can you tell.
i know ramadan is fasting from food for it is said to do so.but after haj is it food or speaking that we must obstain from ,please if you can reflect on these.
that remains for an answer yet.
thank you
salam
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 02, 2011, 06:30:00 AM
ramadan after autumn solice the full moon.three days
The most scorching heat and the most red moon appear in Arabia in general after summer-solstice, not during the autumn.
The first full moon after june 21 seems to be the correct timing.
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 02, 2011, 06:30:00 AM
one question when is ashhur hurum.and al shahr el haram.and if el shahr was only full moon then they used to stop fighting for three days and then go back to fighting,so it is four month with three days of nonfighting in every month.i dontknow but that does not seem to make sense.
The timing of the four -restricted full moons- seems to need more investigation.
There seems not be found compelling koranic evidence for the timing of them.
When four full moons are mentioned together - then the days between them are rather to be included.
The four -restriced full moons-: 3 x 29.5 + 3 days makes about 91.5 days - including the duration of three days of the last full moon.
The first day of the first full moon could be the marker of the start of the -restricted full moons-.
The last day of the last full moon could be the marker of the end of the -restricted full moons-.
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 02, 2011, 06:30:00 AM
as for what kind of fasting.in al haj is it fasting from food or speaking.it is not stated and how can you tell.
i know ramadan is fasting from food for it is said to do so.but after haj is it food or speaking that we must obstain from ,please if you can reflect on these.
that remains for an answer yet.
You are right that the type of fast can depend on the context - the fast of Maryam - 19:26.
But during the -hajj- the fast seems to be at least concerning the food - since verse 2:196 contains rulings about the subject of offerings - food-provision.
It seems hard and not very relevant - not to speak during three days of the -hajj- and even more when one arrived at home and one would have to be silent another 7 days.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 30, 2011, 02:31:07 AMThe issue remains that verse 2:196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
It does clearly state that the "10" is
complete. Why did the god say that it is 10 and "complete"? The god knows that any idiot can add 3+7 and thus saying 3+7 would have been 100% sufficient if what you are saying is even remotely true.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 30, 2011, 02:31:07 AMWhen the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.
This is because you assume that "maadoodat" can be anything. Maadoodat is 3-10. The fact that 2:196 states that 10 is complete further confirms this.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 30, 2011, 02:31:07 AMIt is interesting that verse 2:196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2:185.
The "hajj" does indeed start with the full-moon.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on April 30, 2011, 02:31:07 AMThe 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2:196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.
You are once again not reading the complete passage until the end as you did with وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
Please read until the end of the passage. It clearly says that waiting to get back is only for those whose family are not in the inviolable institution of obedience:
ذَلِكَ لِمَن لَّمْ يَكُنْ أَهْلُهُ حَاضِرِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ This (7 days when you return) is for the one whose family are not in the inviolable institution of obedience and be forethoughtful of the god and know that the god is severe in retribution.So for those whose family is in the inviolable institution of obedience the fast would be a continuous period for the complete 10 days. While for those whose family are not, the fast would also be the complete 10 days but they would be broken up into 3 and 7 days.
Peace,
Ayman
i still think that our answers are speculative,can we find a more direct answer.
i hope we can,but pls we need that ,stateing the scorching heat of that time,well where is it reflected in the quran,as for a meaning for the word ramadan,it is only dictionaries and we will not take that into account.
let us look further into ramadan.
it is said in the quarn "shahru ramadan ilazi unzilla fihi ilquran ,hudan linnah ,wa bayinatin mina al huda wal furqan"
here there are two clear words " HUDA and FURQAN"they will lead us to what and when is Ramadan.
it is also said in the Quran that ,we where given the stars for Huda.
"litahtadu biha"
and Allah knows best,
please reflect,let us use the quran and not any dictionary for reflection
salam tell me what you think,let us look into this further.i hope to look deeper into FURQAN and Huda and "kutiba alaykum el siyam kama kutiba ala ilazeena min qablikum "
all this must be taken into account.
al shahr is not the full moon.
for allah has given precise terms in the quran ,no puzzles.
this must be looked into further. i do appreciate all your effort,and i do take it seriously,thank you all.
but i am still looking let us keep our faith that Allah will give us guidance.
salam
Quote from: ayman on May 02, 2011, 08:23:22 PM
It does clearly state that the "10" is complete. Why did the god say that it is 10 and "complete"? The god knows that any idiot can add 3+7 and thus saying 3+7 would have been 100% sufficient if what you are saying is even remotely true.
Verse 2:196 states that a 10 is complete because in this special case 3 and 7 have to be added.
There are more examples in the Koran that a combination of numbers is mentioned in a special way.
For instance:
verse 29:14 - 1000 minus 50
verse 18:25 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2:196 gives the total of the to be added numbers, the reason for this is unclear.
From this we can not induce a general rule that all the counts should be until 10.
If all the complete sums where to go until 10 - then there rather would be a clear ruling.
We should avoid making rules when the verses of the Koran do not indicate this.
The wording concerning the count in verse 2:196 is different from verse 2:185 and 2:203.
- Verse 2:196 does not contain the word -'adat-.
- Verses 2:185 and 2:203 contain a form of the word -'adat-.
This is an extra indication that verse 2:196 does not explain verse 2:185 in any way.
Furthermore - the verses are about the fast of different groups of people in different circumstances.
Quote from: ayman on May 02, 2011, 08:23:22 PM
This is because you assume that "maadoodat" can be anything. Maadoodat is 3-10. The fact that 2:196 states that 10 is complete further confirms this.
I did not write or assume that -ma'doodat- can be anything, as you suggest.
- quote
So one can only say from verse 2:196 that -ayyam ma'doodat- means 3 as a standard and can mean 2 or somewhat more than 3.
From this verse one can not deduce that one could stay 10 days during the -hajj-.
unquote -
It is your assumption that ma'doodat is 3 - 10.
One can only deduce from verse 2:203 that the -count ma'doodat- is 3 or 2 or somewhat more than 3.
There is no proven connection with verse 2:196 - also because of the absence of the word -'adat-, which is present in verses 2:203 and 2:185.
Quote from: ayman on May 02, 2011, 08:23:22 PM
You are once again not reading the complete passage until the end as you did with وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
Please read until the end of the passage. It clearly says that waiting to get back is only for those whose family are not in the inviolable institution of obedience:
ذَلِكَ لِمَن لَّمْ يَكُنْ أَهْلُهُ حَاضِرِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ
This (7 days when you return) is for the one whose family are not in the inviolable institution of obedience and be forethoughtful of the god and know that the god is severe in retribution.
So for those whose family is in the inviolable institution of obedience the fast would be a continuous period for the complete 10 days. While for those whose family are not, the fast would also be the complete 10 days but they would be broken up into 3 and 7 days.
The way that you read the last part of verse 2:196 seems not to be compelling.
Rather the total ruling of -a fast of 3 + 7 days- is only for the participants: who can not give an offering whose family does not live near the -masjid el haram-.
One can assume from this that:
The family of the poor participant provided for the food for him/her, the poor participant probably stayed at their homes.
So they where not dependend on the food-provision of the -hajj-organisation.
I missed a reaction to following:
It would be particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
- 4:92 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
- 58:4 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
- 5:89 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
- 2:196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
It seems to be particular to assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and that they should read in sources next to the Koran that a -count ma'dootan- has to be until 10 - since this general rule is not found in the Koran.
Verse 2:185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -
full moon- shall fast
it ...
The ones who missed the communal fast, or one or two days of it, can fast other days and complete the relevant count - in this case that seems to be until three, the duration of a full moon.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brothers TS and Ayman,
Quote from: ayman on May 02, 2011, 08:23:22 PM
This is because you assume that "maadoodat" can be anything. Maadoodat is 3-10. The fact that 2:196 states that 10 is complete further confirms this.
Can you please explain how you understand 'maadoodat' is 3-10 brother? If the figure is not fixed specially in case of fasting then there is no problem in fasting any number of days between 3-10, because 2:196 says that completion of 3+7 is 10, but does not clarify that the completion of maadoodat is 10.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 03, 2011, 03:56:40 AM
One can only deduce from verse 2:203 that the -count ma'doodat- is 3 or 2 or somewhat more than 3.
2:203 never states that maadoodaat could be less then or more then 3, it simply clarifies that it is just fixed 3.
If you notice the words used in 2:203 are 'yaumaini' and 'ta-aqqara'. The usage of word 'yaumani' means 2 days clears it all when it came with the combination of the word 'ta-'ajjala' means hasten.
Clarification from 2:203:
Two days - Is not possible maadoodaat, because it is 'hastening in maadoodaat' and 'yaumaini' itself means 2 days not maadoodaat.
Three days - Is possible maadoodaat, because two days is hastening in it and four days is delaying in it.
Four days - Is not possible maadoodaat, because if four days or more then that is maadoodaat, then what about 3 days? And we should not forget that 2:196 states the total Hajj period is 3 days. Therefore, this falls under 'ta-aqqara' means 'delay'.
May Allah guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Quote from: ayman on April 28, 2011, 01:18:31 PM
Peace Eid,
You are assuming that 46:15 and 2:233 apply to the rare maximum gestation period and not the normal. The great reading is not talking about the maximum rare gestation period. It is talking about what is normal. Also, please see what I copied in blue above. This maximum is due to the way modern science calculates pregnancy based on the event of the last menstruation and variation of when actual conception occurred relative to this event (like the full-moon is an event).
So interpreting "shahr" as full-moon covers the normal while allowing for the range up to the max that modern science determined. On the other hand, the traditional definition of "shahr" as a 29.5 days lunar month will always result in the max of 294 and never the normal, which is false. This is why it is impossible. It is a physical impossibility that every human gestation is the max 294 days as your interpretation would imply.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Using full moons is short 29 days unless using maximum ?
10 full moons: (29.53059 x 9) = 266
20 full moons: (29.53059 x 19) = 561
30 full moons: (29.53059 x 29) = 856
266 + 561 = 827 (short 29 days)
10 full moons: (29.53059 x 10) = 295
20 full moons: (29.53059 x 20) = 591
30 full moons: (29.53059 x 30) =
886295 + 591 =
886Only like terms need to be reconciled...
00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
(31:14) and his separation (wafiṣāluhu) < two years (āmayni)
(46:15) and bearing of him and his separation (wafiṣāluhu) thirty shahr
30 months ? gestation < 2 years
30 months < 2 years + 10 months
2.425 years < 2.8 years
al-ḥawli (ٱلْحَوْلِ) pregnancy cycle
ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ) two pregnancy cycles
yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) breastfeeding
fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) separation
2:233 And the mothers shall suckle/yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ) for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raḍāʿata (ٱلرَّضَاعَةَ)
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that
So if they both desire separation/fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them
And if you want to ask other women to suckle/tastarḍiʿū your children so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer
Salaam brother Mohammed
Quote from: mmkhan on May 03, 2011, 06:08:54 AM
2:203 never states that maadoodaat could be less then or more then 3, it simply clarifies that it is just fixed 3.
If you notice the words used in 2:203 are 'yaumaini' and 'ta-aqqara'. The usage of word 'yaumani' means 2 days clears it all when it came with the combination of the word 'ta-'ajjala' means hasten.
Clarification from 2:203:
Two days - Is not possible maadoodaat, because it is 'hastening in maadoodaat' and 'yaumaini' itself means 2 days not maadoodaat.
Three days - Is possible maadoodaat, because two days is hastening in it and four days is delaying in it.
Four days - Is not possible maadoodaat, because if four days or more then that is maadoodaat, then what about 3 days? And we should not forget that 2:196 states the total Hajj period is 3 days. Therefore, this falls under 'ta-aqqara' means 'delay'.
I agree with you that one can read verse 2:203 in a way that one can conclude that -ma'doodat- refers only to the number three.
But one could read the verse also in the following way: The number of days that one may join the -hajj- was: -ma'doodat-.
The verse clarifies that this number is three days as a standard, but that it also can be two or somewhat more than three.
The wording -ma'doodat- seems to indicate a number that can be called a few - three and the numbers around it.
the word -ma'doodat- in others contexts:
verse 2:80 and 3:24 - few days in the fire.
verse 12:20 - few dirhams, as a price for Yusuf - a symbolical low price.
These verses seem to indicate that -ma'doodat- refers to a small number.
One could assume if -ma'doodat- only can mean three, that the word three could have been used in stead of the word -ma'doodat-.
Together with verse 2:203 one could say that the word -ma'doodat- refers to the number three, or means two or somewhat more.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 04, 2011, 02:25:26 AM
I agree with you that one can read verse 2:203 in a way that one can conclude that -ma'doodat- refers only to the number three.
But one could read the verse also in the following way: The number of days that one may join the -hajj- was: -ma'doodat-.
The verse clarifies that this number is three days as a standard, but that it also can be two or somewhat more than three.
The wording -ma'doodat- seems to indicate a number that can be called a few - three and the numbers around it.
the word -ma'doodat- in others contexts:
verse 2:80 and 3:24 - few days in the fire.
verse 12:20 - few dirhams, as a price for Yusuf - a symbolical low price.
These verses seem to indicate that -ma'doodat- refers to a small number.
One could assume if -ma'doodat- only can mean three, that the word three could have been used in stead of the word -ma'doodat-.
Together with verse 2:203 one could say that the word -ma'doodat- refers to the number three, or means two or somewhat more.
Correct! But still, if you take madoodaat as any number from 3-10, then how will you decide the number of fasting during Ramadhan? From 2:203 we can get the exact number i.e., 3. I think this number 3 may refer to all the aayaats where the maadoodaat is used.
At the moment, we does not require to know the exact number in other aayaats where the word 'maadoodaat' is used, but we must have to know the exact number of Ramadhan for fasting.
2:203 is not directly referring to Ramadhan but it is about Hajj, and when we take the count of fasting in Ramadhan from 2:203 then the same exact number will refer to all the aayaats where the word maadoodaat is used.
The reason of using the word maadoodaat instead of three is still unknown. Allah knows best.
May Allah guide us all to His true path. :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam brother,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 03, 2011, 03:56:40 AM
Verse 2:185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it ...
The ones who missed the communal fast, or one or two days of it, can fast other days and complete the relevant count - in this case that seems to be until three, the duration of a full moon.
I got a problem here.
2:185
شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينت من الهدى والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله على ما هديكم ولعلكم تشكرون2:185 Shahr of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever witness AlShahr, he shall fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.
If
Shahru = Full moon [singular]
Ash-huru = Full moons [plural]
Then, the word used in 2:185 is "
فليصمه" that means "So, he shall fast
it".
Falyasum + HU and "Hu" is singular, that cannot be referring to plural full moons, either 3 full moons or more. If it has to be plural the word would be "FALYASUM + HUNNA". To understand it better please follow:
2:185
شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينت من الهدى والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله على ما هديكم ولعلكم تشكرون2:197
الحج أشهر معلومت فمن فرض فيهن الحج فلا رفث ولا فسوق ولا جدال في الحج وما تفعلوا من خير يعلمه الله وتزودوا فإن خير الزاد التقوى واتقون يأولي الألببPlease note that the word 'AlShahra' is singular in 2:185, and 'Ash-hurun' is plural in 2:197. In the same way 'hu' of falysumhu is singular in 2:185 and 'hinna' [is referring to 'Ash-hurun', plural of 'shahr'] of feehinna is also plural in 2:197.
This shows that 2:185 is not referring to 3 full moons. As always, my doubt about 'shahr' being full-moon is increasing now.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on May 04, 2011, 05:38:04 AM
Correct! But still, if you take madoodaat as any number from 3-10, then how will you decide the number of fasting during Ramadhan? From 2:203 we can get the exact number i.e., 3. I think this number 3 may refer to all the aayaats where the maadoodaat is used.
At the moment, we does not require to know the exact number in other aayaats where the word 'maadoodaat' is used, but we must have to know the exact number of Ramadhan for fasting.
2:203 is not directly referring to Ramadhan but it is about Hajj, and when we take the count of fasting in Ramadhan from 2:203 then the same exact number will refer to all the aayaats where the word maadoodaat is used.
The reason of using the word maadoodaat instead of three is still unknown. Allah knows best.
In verse 2:203 one can only read that -ma'doodat- refers to three or two or a number slightly higher than three (be it four or five).
The verse does not imply a count until ten - that would be out of context - the difference would be too big to call an increase of the stay during the -hajj- with more than 200% - just a delay.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on May 04, 2011, 06:02:03 AM
I got a problem here.
2:185 شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينت من الهدى والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله على ما هديكم ولعلكم تشكرون
2:185 Shahr of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever witness AlShahr, he shall fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.
If
Shahru = Full moon [singular]
Ash-huru = Full moons [plural]
Then, the word used in 2:185 is "فليصمه" that means "So, he shall fast it".
Falyasum + HU and "Hu" is singular, that cannot be referring to plural full moons, either 3 full moons or more. If it has to be plural the word would be "FALYASUM + HUNNA". To understand it better please follow:
2:185 شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينت من الهدى والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله على ما هديكم ولعلكم تشكرون
2:197 الحج أشهر معلومت فمن فرض فيهن الحج فلا رفث ولا فسوق ولا جدال في الحج وما تفعلوا من خير يعلمه الله وتزودوا فإن خير الزاد التقوى واتقون يأولي الألبب
Please note that the word 'AlShahra' is singular in 2:185, and 'Ash-hurun' is plural in 2:197. In the same way 'hu' of falysumhu is singular in 2:185 and 'hinna' [is referring to 'Ash-hurun', plural of 'shahr'] of feehinna is also plural in 2:197.
This shows that 2:185 is not referring to 3 full moons. As always, my doubt about 'shahr' being full-moon is increasing now.
Verse 2:185 refers only to one special full moon that occurs one time a year - the scorching full moon/shahr ramadan.
That is why one has to fast
it, not to fast them.
The meaning of the singular -hu- is indicative for this.
The -hajj- was an event within the four restricted full moons - within a period of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days (including the duration of the last full moon).
From the Koran we can only really know that it lasted somewhat longer than three days - verse 2:203.
Regarding the duration of the fast of -shahr ramadan- verses 2:184 and 2:185 alone are clear and detailed - the full moon lasts three days (ayyaman ma'doodat), that is the duration of the communal fast.
Verses 2:196 and 2:197 do not explain or add rules to verses 2:184 and 2:185 - since they are about other subjects.
Verse 2:203 confirms that the number -ma'doodat- refers to number three as a standard - compatible with the duration of the full moon, three days.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam bro,
I am sorry if I am not clear in making my point.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 04, 2011, 08:14:15 AM
Verse 2:185 refers only to one special full moon that occurs one time a year - the scorching full moon/shahr ramadan.
That is why one has to fast it, not to fast them.
The meaning of the singular -hu- is indicative for this.
That is what I am saying brother that 2:185 refers to the only special scorching shahr [whatever it means] once in a year.
'FalyasumHU' is either referring to 'a period' [shahr may mean that] or referring to 'a month' [shahr may mean that], but not a 'full moon'. If shahr means 'full moon' it is NOT working out with 'maadoodaat' and 'falyasumhu', as maadoodaat is referring to 3 days and 'HU' is a singular. We cannot change 'it' to 'this' to fit our understanding brother. Unless and until we study it deeply and keeping our personal understandings aside, we are not gonna find the truth.
Quote
From the Koran we can only really know that it lasted somewhat longer than three days - verse 2:203.
???
Quote
Regarding the duration of the fast of -shahr ramadan- verses 2:184 and 2:185 alone are clear and detailed - the full moon lasts three days (ayyaman ma'doodat), that is the duration of the communal fast.
Totally agreed.
Quote
Verses 2:196 and 2:197 do not explain or add rules to verses 2:184 and 2:185 - since they are about other subjects.
Verse 2:203 confirms that the number -ma'doodat- refers to number three as a standard - compatible with the duration of the full moon, three days.
2:197 does. Without taking all the aayaats in relation we are not going to find the truth.
Quote
The -hajj- was an event within the four restricted full moons - within a period of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days (including the duration of the last full moon).
Brother, I want to understand what means 3 in addition from the above 3 x 29.5 + 3 what this plus three when you already counted full moons also in 29.5?
May Allah guide us all to His true path. :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 04, 2011, 08:14:15 AM
Salaam brother
Verse 2:185 refers only to one special full moon that occurs one time a year - the scorching full moon/shahr ramadan.
That is why one has to fast it, not to fast them.
The meaning of the singular -hu- is indicative for this.
The -hajj- was an event within the four restricted full moons - within a period of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days (including the duration of the last full moon).
From the Koran we can only really know that it lasted somewhat longer than three days - verse 2:203.
Regarding the duration of the fast of -shahr ramadan- verses 2:184 and 2:185 alone are clear and detailed - the full moon lasts three days (ayyaman ma'doodat), that is the duration of the communal fast.
Verses 2:196 and 2:197 do not explain or add rules to verses 2:184 and 2:185 - since they are about other subjects.
Verse 2:203 confirms that the number -ma'doodat- refers to number three as a standard - compatible with the duration of the full moon, three days.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salam, Peace to all,
2:203
وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْدُودَاتٍ ۚ فَمَنْ تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَنْ تَأَخَّرَ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ ۚ لِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ ۗ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَwhat about if AYAMIN plural of YAWM means "PERIODS" instead of DAYS?
A deep study of word YAWM would imply a different meaning than just DAY, don't you think?
Peace
Quote from: herbman on May 04, 2011, 10:49:45 AM
2:203
وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْدُودَاتٍ ۚ فَمَنْ تَعَجَّلَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَنْ تَأَخَّرَ فَلَا إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ ۚ لِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ ۗ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ
what about if AYAMIN plural of YAWM means "PERIODS" instead of DAYS?
A deep study of word YAWM would imply a different meaning than just DAY, don't you think?
The context of verse 2:203 is clearly the -hajj- as that is in verse 2:196.
The word -ayamin- seems to indicate a number of days in a literal sense.
The word -yawm- can also refer to a very long time.
Verse 32:5 - a day as 1000 year.
Verse 70:5 - a day as 50.000 year.
Verse 50:38 - the creation in 6 days.
Concerning the -hajj- and the fast - a day seems to be a common -human day-.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on May 04, 2011, 10:10:02 AM
That is what I am saying brother that 2:185 refers to the only special scorching shahr [whatever it means] once in a year.
'FalyasumHU' is either referring to 'a period' [shahr may mean that] or referring to 'a month' [shahr may mean that], but not a 'full moon'. If shahr means 'full moon' it is NOT working out with 'maadoodaat' and 'falyasumhu', as maadoodaat is referring to 3 days and 'HU' is a singular. We cannot change 'it' to 'this' to fit our understanding brother. Unless and until we study it deeply and keeping our personal understandings aside, we are not gonna find the truth.
-falsyasum-hu- in verse 2:185 refers to the full moon - singular.
Something that is singular can have several elements - the full moon has three days (with 98% coverage at least, from earth's perspective seen as a full moon).
Those three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- as mentioned in verse 2:203.
Quote from: mmkhan on May 04, 2011, 10:10:02 AM
Brother, I want to understand what means 3 in addition from the above 3 x 29.5 + 3 what this plus three when you already counted full moons also in 29.5?
One can see the beginning of the first full moon as a marker of the beginning the restricted full moons and the end of the fourth full moon as a marker of the end of the restricted full moons.
Since the duration of the full moon is three days - one could add the relevant three days to: 3 x 29.5.
Only when the moon becomes visibly smaller - the fourth day, then the restricted full moons are really over.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
but the time for haj is al ahilat and not the full moon.
to what that may mean ,al ahilat is commonly understood as the crecents.but it might have another meaning we must look into that.
but it surely is not a full moon.
or if it is ,then proof from the Quran is required.
salam.
Salaam brother,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 04, 2011, 05:00:38 PM
-falsyasum-hu- in verse 2:185 refers to the full moon - singular.
Something that is singular can have several elements - the full moon has three days (with 98% coverage at least, from earth's perspective seen as a full moon).
Those three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- as mentioned in verse 2:203.
I understood that the moon has three days with 98% coverage from earth's perspective that exactly fits with 2:203 and I agree with that.
But when you agreed that "falyasumHU" is referring to a SINGLE full moon, it is not possible to refer it to three days. Please read my post # 2281 above for detail. This clarifies that either 'shahr' means 'a period of three days' or 'a longer period' or 'a month' but not just a SINGLE full moon.
Quote
One can see the beginning of the first full moon as a marker of the beginning the restricted full moons and the end of the fourth full moon as a marker of the end of the restricted full moons.
Since the duration of the full moon is three days - one could add the relevant three days to: 3 x 29.5.
Only when the moon becomes visibly smaller - the fourth day, then the restricted full moons are really over.
Why to add those relevant three days to 3 x 29.5 when it is already added in 29.5 days?
May Allah guide us all to His true path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Salaam brother
Quote from: mmkhan on May 05, 2011, 01:06:06 AM
I understood that the moon has three days with 98% coverage from earth's perspective that exactly fits with 2:203 and I agree with that.
But when you agreed that "falyasumHU" is referring to a SINGLE full moon, it is not possible to refer it to three days. Please read my post # 2281 above for detail. This clarifies that either 'shahr' means 'a period of three days' or 'a longer period' or 'a month' but not just a SINGLE full moon.
Verse 2:185 mentions the -shahr ramadan-, translated as the scorching full moon - this is within the count of 12 full moons in a year (9:36) a special single full moon. The fact that it returns every year does not make the plural-form needed. Since the count until 12 starts over again with the start of the new year.
So I do not see a problem in the usage of the singular form -falyasum
hu-, it refers to the one single scorching full moon that occurs during a year.
We can fast the witnessed full moon by fasting the three days (ayaman ma'doodat - 2:184, 2:203) of it.
Verse 2:185 refers to the one special full moon (in singular) that has to be fasted.
Verse 2:184 refers to the -ayaman ma'doodat- (in plural) that have to be fasted, the three days that are elements of the special full moon.
Quote from: mmkhan on May 05, 2011, 01:06:06 AM
Why to add those relevant three days to 3 x 29.5 when it is already added in 29.5 days?
In analogy - the travel lasts four tunnels.
Then one has to go through the last tunnel as well to end the travel.
A lunar-cycle lasts 29.5 on average.
So if one has to abstain 2 -shahr- (58:4) then one starts to abstain the first day of the first full moon - after 29 or 30 days one sees the beginning of the second full moon. Then one can better fast until the moment that the moon has become 'smaller' after day three of that full moon - that is an extra three days.
Since one has to abstain the two consecutive full moons, including the days between them.
The beginning of the full moon is the marker of the start of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the last day of the fast.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam Mohamad
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 05, 2011, 12:50:16 AM
but the time for haj is al ahilat and not the full moon.
to what that may mean ,al ahilat is commonly understood as the crecents.
You are right - the Koran informs us in verse 2:197 that the -hajj- was within the time-frame of the four restricted full moons.
Verse 2:189 states that the crescent moons or the several phases of the moon were to be used for the precise timing of the -hajj-.
From the Koran we can not know for certain that the timing of the -hajj- was related to the full moon - but being one of the phases of the moon, it might have been.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
this is a good assumptoin that it is a full moon.but we need further proof,numbers will not do.we need direct proof.or else a shahr will mean one month.
a woman suckle her child 30 shahr.it is impossible to just sucke him or her on just full moons.
in the quran 30 shahr is hawlayn kamilayn two years.
i think we must give up this idea of full moons.
you dont have proof.
"kutiba 3alaykum il siyam kama kutiba 3ala illazeena min kablikum"
the christains do fast for thirty days or more.something actually like fourty.
yet here we want to prove that it is three days full moon.
i totally disagree.
salam
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 05, 2011, 03:54:30 AM
The beginning of the full moon is the marker of the start of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the last day of the fast.
Peace --
Summer solstice is June 21 2011 so let's apply to this year in Northern Hemisphere.
When do you expect to visually "witness" the full moon and "fast it" -- provide exact start and stop dates?
http://www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/DC/Washington/2011-07
The next full moon...
July 13 97%
July 14 100%
July 15 Full Moon 2:39 A.M.
July 16 98%
Salaam Mohamad
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 05, 2011, 08:26:25 AM
this is a good assumptoin that it is a full moon.but we need further proof,numbers will not do.we need direct proof.or else a shahr will mean one month.
a woman suckle her child 30 shahr.it is impossible to just sucke him or her on just full moons.
in the quran 30 shahr is hawlayn kamilayn two years.
i think we must give up this idea of full moons.
you dont have proof.
As written before: when more than one full moon is prescribed by the Koran - then the days in between should be included.
So the period of suckling could be as a standard: 29 x 29.5 + 3 days (the last full moon included)
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 05, 2011, 08:26:25 AM
"kutiba 3alaykum il siyam kama kutiba 3ala illazeena min kablikum"
the christains do fast for thirty days or more.something actually like fourty.
yet here we want to prove that it is three days full moon.
Verse 2:183 supports a duration of the fast of far less than 29/30 days.
In the jewish religion one communal day of abstention is prescribed: -jawm kippur-.
This fast occurs one day a year and lasts only one total day - from the evening until the next evening.
The christian fast is a product of christian -ahadeeth-, the fast of 40 days is not found as a communal duty in the Torah or in the Gospel.
According to the Gospels (we can not know how reliable they are now) - Jesus had fasted 40 days, this was not prescribed for this followers in any known verse of the Gospel.
A fast of three days during -shahr ramadan- is more compatible with the fast as prescribed for the jewish people than a fast of 29/30 days.
Actually as far as we can know, Jesus was a follower of the jewish sharia as well, there is no proof or indication that the messenger Jesus had changed this element of the sharia into 40 days.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: SEid on May 05, 2011, 09:18:00 AM
Summer solstice is June 21 2011 so let's apply to this year in Northern Hemisphere.
When do you expect to visually "witness" the full moon and "fast it" -- provide exact start and stop dates?
http://www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/DC/Washington/2011-07
The next full moon...
July 13 97%
July 14 100%
July 15 Full Moon 2:39 A.M.
July 16 98%
From this one can read that the fasting of -shahr ramadan- is at 14,15 and 16th of July in 2011.
There are in general three days with coverage of at least 98% - the fourth day normally one can see with the eye that the moon becomes 'smaller'.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
hello truth seeker,
if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.
Salaam Mohamad
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 05, 2011, 07:44:37 PM
if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.
The full moon after the summer-solstice is the most reddish moon on average - together with the highest temperature in Arabia, that gives the connection with the literal meaning of -ramadan-: scorching heat.
The dates of the lunar-eclipse are rather divided over the year - I do not see the connection between -ramadan- and the lunar eclipse, also because an eclipse can be more times a year.
Until now I have not seen any compelling koranic evidence regarding the timing of the four restricted full moons.
One could assume that -shahr ramadan- is one of them - since it has to be a garanteed peacefull moment within the year to be able to rest and sleep (apart from the middle-prayer) during daytime.
But this subject is somewhat off topic - it could better be discussed on another thread - as is the subject of -soojood-
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 03, 2011, 03:56:40 AM
Verse 2:196 states that a 10 is complete because in this special case 3 and 7 have to be added.
There are more examples in the Koran that a combination of numbers is mentioned in a special way.
For instance:
verse 29:14 - 1000 minus 50
verse 18:25 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2:196 gives the total of the to be added numbers, the reason for this is unclear.
This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.
ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: mmkhan on May 03, 2011, 06:08:54 AMCan you please explain how you understand 'maadoodat' is 3-10 brother? If the figure is not fixed specially in case of fasting then there is no problem in fasting any number of days between 3-10, because 2:196 says that completion of 3+7 is 10, but does not clarify that the completion of maadoodat is 10.
The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2:196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Eid,
Quote from: SEid on May 03, 2011, 10:08:15 AMUsing full moons is short 29 days unless using maximum ?
10 full moons: (29.53059 x 9) = 266
20 full moons: (29.53059 x 19) = 561
30 full moons: (29.53059 x 29) = 856
266 + 561 = 827 (short 29 days)
It is not short. You are missing the period between the 10 and the 20. There is no baby I know of that is born and then waits for 29.5 after delivery before he is fed.
Quote from: SEid on May 03, 2011, 10:08:15 AM10 full moons: (29.53059 x 10) = 295
20 full moons: (29.53059 x 20) = 591
30 full moons: (29.53059 x 30) = 886
This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.
The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: mohamad itani on May 10, 2011, 08:15:42 PMi think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation
Thank you brother Mohamad. May the god bless you and your family.
2:2. This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful
ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Salaam ayman,
Quote from: ayman on May 10, 2011, 09:36:51 PM
The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2:196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?
Let me breakdown what you wrote:
- The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
- The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
- ...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering [i.e., AlHadya].
- This is clear from 2:196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2:196 without any mentioning of iddat.
- If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2:196, so there must be some reason.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His only path :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
Quote from: ayman on May 10, 2011, 09:44:28 PM
This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.
The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).
Peace Ayman,
It comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?
Quote from: ayman on April 26, 2011, 10:07:05 PM
As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."
The great reading gives the same max as modern science.
On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!
As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2:233 and 46:15 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.
The point was there is no need to reconcile dissimilar terms:
yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) breastfeeding
fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) separation
31:14 and his separation (wafiṣāluhu) < two years (āmayni)
46:15 and bearing of him and his separation (wafiṣāluhu) thirty shahr
2:233 And the mothers shall suckle/yur'ḍiʿ'na (يُرْضِعْنَ) their children ḥawlayni (حَوْلَيْنِ) for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raḍāʿata (ٱلرَّضَاعَةَ)
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that
So if they both desire separation/fiṣālan (فِصَالًا) through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them
And if you want to ask other women to suckle/tastarḍiʿū your children so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer
seid you did not fully put that into scope.
yes the thirty shahr include the pregnancy period and the suckleing period.
wich is only about six month of pregnancy and tow years of suckleing.
i would say that the first few month of pregnancy the fetus is not devaloped to call it a fetus it is really only a fertelized egg.
only when their is extra weight that it is considered and that would be after three month of pregnancy and a fetus would start to devalope,check the ultra sound for a pregnant woman,trust me i have three kids and i see how the fetus devalope.
so it is thirty month of carrying.
salam.
Quote from: mmkhan on May 11, 2011, 04:35:29 AMLet me breakdown what you wrote:
- The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
- The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
- ...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering [i.e., AlHadya].
The period of "hajj" is not specifically 3 or 10. One can stay 2 or more than 3. We know that "maadodat" cannot be just any number and is more than 2 based on 2:203.
So the only question remaining is what is the max/complete of "maadoodat"?Quote from: mmkhan on May 11, 2011, 04:35:29 AM- This is clear from 2:196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2:196 without any mentioning of iddat.
- If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2:196, so there must be some reason.
The reason is to answer the question "
what is the max/complete of maadoodat?" Simple.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: SEid on May 11, 2011, 08:00:55 AMIt comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?
It comes up as the MAX not as the NORMAL as in your calculation, which we know is not true.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on May 10, 2011, 09:28:19 PM
This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.
ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.
verse 29:14 - 1000 minus 50
verse 18:25 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2:196 - 3 plus 7 - a complete 10
The analogy between these verses is that numbers are put in a special way - and thereby the verses can let the reader wonder what the reason could be behind this.
The three verses have three different ways of presenting a count - that is clear, that does not make the analogy false.
Verse 2:196 does not imply that a count until 10 can be called a -count ma'doodat- according to the Koran.
The word -ma'doodat- is not used in verse 2:196.
Verse 2:203 gives koranic evidence for a possible range of -ma'doodat-: as a standard it is 3, it can be 2 or somewhat more.
The wording -to hurry/hasten- is connected to the number of days of staying at the -hajj- going from 3 to 2.
The wording -delays- refers to a stay of somewhat longer than 3 days.
The number 10 seems not to be in this range of -ma'doodat-: an increase of the stay up to 230% of the standard duration of 3 days could hardly be called a reasonable delay. In the Koran no proof is found that the -hajj- lasted until 10 days.
Rather a maximum stay of 4 or 5 days seems to be implied.
- Anyway there is no koranic proof beyond reasonable doubt that a -count ma'doodat- can be until 10.
- There is no koranic proof that completing a -count ma'doodat- should only go until 10.
- Considering the wording of verses 2:196 and 2:203 - one can conclude that they do not suggest a duration of the communal fast of 10 days in any way.
The wording of verses 2:184, 2:185 and 2:203 refers rather to a duration of the communal fast of 3 days.
The following words seem to be clear, precise and binding:
verse 2:185 ... whoever witnessed the full moon shall fast
it ...
The duration of the full moon as seen from earth's perspective is 3 days (at least 98% coverage).
The connection with the duration of the fast can be found confirmed by the usage of the wording -ma'doodat- in verses 2:184 and 2:203.
As said before:
It would be particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
- 4:92 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
- 58:4 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
- 5:89 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
- 2:196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
It seems to be particular to assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and that they should read in sources next to the Koran that a -count ma'doodat- has to be until 10 - since this general rule is not found in the Koran.
Verse 2:185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it ...
The ones who missed the communal fast, or one or two days of it, can fast other days and complete the relevant count - in this case that seems to be until three, the duration of a full moon.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace --
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 14, 2011, 05:30:27 AM
verse 29:14 - 1000 minus 50
sanat سَ نَ ة cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
46:15 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
^^
Peace,
First, re: living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'
Second, your equation raises another question: what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.
Third, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 12:27:53 AM
^^
Peace,
First, re: living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'
Peace,
It's illogical, means all those people also lived 950 years and contradictory ...
2:96 if he could be granted life thousand sanatin
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 12:27:53 AM
Second, your equation raises another question: what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.
Perhaps used wrong word in English; look up all uses choose best meaning...
6:152 ashuddahu his development
12:22 ashuddahu his development
17:34 ashuddahu his development
18:82 ashuddahumā their development
22:5 ashuddakum your development
28:14 ashuddahu his development
40:67 ashuddakum your development
46:15 ashuddahu his development
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 12:27:53 AM
Third, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".
It's not sanat - sanat; rather sanat - aman different terms, equation for calculation clearly given...
46:15 30 shahr = 40 sanat
Quote from: SEid on May 21, 2011, 01:35:16 AM
Peace,
It's illogical, means all those people also lived 950 years and contradictory ...
2:96 if he could be granted life thousand sanatin
No, not necessarily
all those people. Reported in 29:14 is just a "he" who remained among his people (say, a nation, collectively, i.e. generations of the same nation).
2:96 clearly speaks of a different person/people.
It may sound illogical for us who are not used to seeing people older than age 100. Though i still think that this is not something that is already set in stone, since we haven't figured out everything about our DNA and all the potentials we have.
Quote
Perhaps used wrong word in English; look up all uses choose best meaning...
6:152 ashuddahu his development
12:22 ashuddahu his development
17:34 ashuddahu his development
18:82 ashuddahumā their development
22:5 ashuddakum your development
28:14 ashuddahu his development
40:67 ashuddakum your development
46:15 ashuddahu his development
same question with another word here ("development" in place of "strength")...
Quote
It's not sanat - sanat; rather sanat - aman different terms, equation for calculation clearly given...
46:15 30 shahr = 40 sanat
okay, i should've said 1000 something - 50 something
else but you clearly missed my point about being 'overly cryptical'...
My point being, the term sanat might have been a common measurement unit (not necessarily same as "aman/year"), but what is the significance of 3/4 lunar month or ~22 days?
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 02:51:21 AM
No, not necessarily all those people. Reported in 29:14 is just a "he" who remained among his people (say, a nation, collectively, i.e. generations of the same nation).
2:96 clearly speaks of a different person/people.
It may sound illogical for us who are not used to seeing people older than age 100. Though i still think that this is not something that is already set in stone, since we haven't figured out everything about our DNA and all the potentials we have.
23:24 so said the chiefs those who disbelieved from his people, "This is not except a man like you...
Would you consider someone living today yet born in 11th century the same as you;
perhaps he?d give insight on events 900+ years ago like crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 CE?
Reminds me of those who believe in 6000 year old earth, yet trees are older...
World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Swedenhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htm
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 02:51:21 AM
same question with another word here ("development" in place of "strength")...
ashuddahu pertains to different stages of growth and development...
4:6 and test the orphans until when they reach the age of marriage
so if you perceive in them sound judgment so deliver to them their wealth
17:34 and not come near wealth the orphan apart from with what it's best until he reaches ashuddahu
You consider withholding orphan?s wealth and forbid marriage until they reached age 40?
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 02:51:21 AM
okay, i should've said 1000 something - 50 something else but you clearly missed my point about being 'overly cryptical'...
My point being, the term sanat might have been a common measurement unit (not necessarily same as "aman/year"), but what is the significance of 3/4 lunar month or ~22 days?
عَامٍ is year...
29:14 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat less fifty āman
31:14 and his separation in ʿāmayni (two years)
sanat سَ نَ ة (harvest window perhaps)
(30 lunar months) / 40 = 22.1479425 days
2:96 if he could be granted life thousand sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years
5:26 "so indeed it forbidden to them forty sanat they will wander in the earth
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 40 = 2.42556228 years
22:47 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat from what you reckon
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years
29:14 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat except fifty āman
(3/4) x lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
32:5 in a day measure which is thousand sanat from what you reckon
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years
46:15 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches his development and reaches forty sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 40 = 2.42556228 years
70:4 a day its measure fifty thousand sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 50,000 = 3,031.95285 years
sinīna سِ نِ ي ن is seasons/harvests perhaps ?
12:47 He said, "You will sow seven sinīna as usual, so what you reap so leave it in its ears only little from what you eat.
17:12 ...and that you may know number al-sinīna and the count. And everything We have explained it detailed
18:25 And they remained in their cave three hundred sinīna and add nine
Quote from: SEid on May 21, 2011, 04:00:33 PM
23:24 so said the chiefs those who disbelieved from his people, "This is not except a man like you...
Would you consider someone living today yet born in 11th century the same as you;
perhaps he?d give insight on events 900+ years ago like crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 CE?
Yes, especially when our background (e.g. nationality) hasn't changed much in all those nine centuries. You're not comparing Noah's time with today's (and back to 11th century) Jerusalem are you?
And I don't know why you're referring to 23:24, because in that case, even a prophet from six or nine thousand years ago is also "not except a
man like you".
Please note that i haven't assigned any number to the 'variable'. At this point however, i will not discard the option of even "nine hundred and fifty years" just because it is not something that's happening in this time (and AQ doesn't suggest this either--it's a reference of the past, and likely, of a
very special case).
Quote
Reminds me of those who believe in 6000 year old earth, yet trees are older...
World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Sweden
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htm
I don't get the relevance. I believe that humanity (with God-conscious potential) was started more than tens of thousands of years ago on earth.
Quote
ashuddahu pertains to different stages of growth and development...
4:6 and test the orphans until when they reach the age of marriage
so if you perceive in them sound judgment so deliver to them their wealth
17:34 and not come near wealth the orphan apart from with what it's best until he reaches ashuddahu
You consider withholding orphan?s wealth and forbid marriage until they reached age 40?
Yes, I believe Ashuddahu is different for everyone, it's not a one-size-fits-all standard marked by certain amount of time, as you have suggested yourself. From 46:15, I do
not equalize "ashuddahu" with "40 sanat". I asked because of a little semantic problem with your equation/conversion of 46:15.
You would not give all the orphans' wealth when they reached age two and a half year so they can manage it by themselves, would you? "Sound judgment" in that age would be the miraculous exception rather than the norm, i suppose we'll both agree on that (i.e. "sound judgment" will be reached past age 2 1/2).
Let's try to see it this way, using your translation and your conversion:
46:15 And bearing of him and his separation
thirty shahran until when he reaches his development/maturity and reaches
forty sanatan Would it be logical for AQ to talk about human development in random fashion such as this:
46:15 And bearing of him
and his separation
2.42556228 years until when he reaches his development/maturity (
>2.42556228 years) and reaches
2.42556228 years This is where the question came from.
Quote
sanat سَ نَ ة (harvest window perhaps)
(30 lunar months) / 40 = 22.1479425 days
Thank you but IMO you're just presenting your own conversion table. You're so called "equation" is where verification is most needed. Thanks however for showing that it could be somehow related with
sinīna. For now i will hold my opinion. :)
Peace,
Quote from: SEid on May 20, 2011, 11:54:22 PM
Peace --
sanat سَ نَ ة cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
46:15 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
Salaam
This thread was becoming so repeatative that it was not worth contributing to it, until you started discussing Sanat and Aam as this is very important subject this may lead us to reccognising forbidden months too.
Why not start a new thread discussing the difference between these terms so others, who may have had enough of this thread and may not even bother to look at it twice, will miss out on this subject.
I always :hmm Noah live for almost a century and how many generation he saw passed during his life time?
When referring to Noah's age we read Sanat and Aaman in that verse so yes I am inclind to follow your calculations so does that means he lived till 60+ OR was it after the storm that he lived for another 60 years?
Peace
BTW I only read this thread when I see any contribution form SEid
Simpls ;)
Quote from: SEid on May 20, 2011, 11:54:22 PM
sanat سَ نَ ة cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
46:15 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
Peace
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand -sanatin- less fifty -<aamaan-.
Both the word -sana- as the word -<aam- seem to mean a year according to the Koran. Both words are seemingly interchangable
But it is noticable that sometimes the Koran uses the word -sana- in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.
7:130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
12:47 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
12:48 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
12:49 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."
Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.
This information could lead to following reading of verse 29:14 - as is mentioned in Lane's as well.
- And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.-
In the Bible, Genesis 9:29 states: And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
The reading of the word -sana- as 22 days seems not to be supported by verse 46:15.
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
These words are rather spoken by an adult person - not by a little child of about 2.4 years old.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace,
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 11:24:35 PM
Yes, especially when our background (e.g. nationality) hasn't changed much in all those nine centuries. You're not comparing Noah's time with today's (and back to 11th century) Jerusalem are you?
And I don't know why you're referring to 23:24, because in that case, even a prophet from six or nine thousand years ago is also "not except a man like you".
No, unless humans had similar life spans he'd be a man 900+ years older/unlike you not a tree.
Quote from: san on May 21, 2011, 11:24:35 PM
Would it be logical for AQ to talk about human development in random fashion such as this:
46:15 And bearing of him and his separation 2.42556228 years until when he reaches his development/maturity (>2.42556228 years) and reaches 2.42556228 years
Talks about one critical stage of early life development (ashuddahu) and equates 30 shahr to 40 sanat not about attaining wisdom/maturity at exactly age 40 or that people are dumb before that.
40:67 furthermore He brings you out a child, furthermore lets you reach ashuddakum
Quote from: IMHO on May 22, 2011, 02:28:59 AM
This thread was becoming so repeatative that it was not worth contributing to it, until you started discussing Sanat and Aam as this is very important subject this may lead us to reccognising forbidden months too.
Why not start a new thread discussing the difference between these terms so others, who may have had enough of this thread and may not even bother to look at it twice, will miss out on this subject.
Yes, this thread is the mother of all threads. Perhaps I'll revive/link to one of the older topics.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 22, 2011, 07:10:56 AM
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand -sanatin- less fifty -<aamaan-.
Both the word -sana- as the word -<aam- seem to mean a year according to the Koran. Both words are seemingly interchangable
But it is noticable that sometimes the Koran uses the word -sana- in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.
7:130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
12:47 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
12:48 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
12:49 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."
Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.
This information could lead to following reading of verse 29:14 - as is mentioned in Lane's as well.
- And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.-
That's an obvious contradiction; Lane was a bad logician. 50 harsh or good years?
When does a year start and how to determine a good or bad year; can it be both?
Why would anyone desire thousand years of hardship?
2:96 ...he could be granted a life thousand sanat (bad years?)
22:47 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat (bad years?) from what you reckon
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 22, 2011, 07:10:56 AM
In the Bible, Genesis 9:29 states: And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
No time to study Bible or ancient Hebrew although it's similar to Arabic?
http://biblos.com/genesis/9-29.htm
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 22, 2011, 07:10:56 AM
The reading of the word -sana- as 22 days seems not to be supported by verse 46:15.
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
These words are rather spoken by an adult person - not by a little child of about 2.4 years old.
Does it say in the verse at
exactly age 40 the human says that?
They are spoken by those considerate of their parents ? at any age!
46:15
And We have enjoined the mankind to his parents? kindness
Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardship
And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat
He says, "My Lord...
Quote from: SEid on May 22, 2011, 08:32:18 PM
That's an obvious contradiction; Lane was a bad logician. 50 harsh or good years?
Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.
1000 years of difficulty minus 50 years that were as a contrast good.
In analogy of following verses:
7:130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
12:47 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
12:48 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
12:49 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."
As said before, verse 29:14 has a special wording.
A person could say: I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
The explanation as found in Lane's dictionary seems not to be illogical.
Quote from: SEid on May 22, 2011, 08:32:18 PM
When does a year start and how to determine a good or bad year; can it be both?
The Koran does not give information about the timing of the start of the year.
Both words for year -<aam- and -sana- are used in the Koran in general.
Only in the case of a contrast between years the word -sana- is sometimes used in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.
Quote from: SEid on May 22, 2011, 08:32:18 PM
Why would anyone desire thousand years of hardship?
2:96 ...he could be granted a life thousand sanat (bad years?)
22:47 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat (bad years?) from what you reckon
The word -sana- is also used in a neutral way as is the word -<aam- when there is not a context of positive versus negative.
Quote from: SEid on May 22, 2011, 08:32:18 PM
No time to study Bible or ancient Hebrew although it's similar to Arabic?
http://biblos.com/genesis/9-29.htm
Copy-paste from the link:
sha?nah years
The Hebrew word -shanah- for year is rather similar to the Arabic word -sana-
Quote from: SEid on May 22, 2011, 08:32:18 PM
Does it say in the verse at exactly age 40 the human says that?
They are spoken by those considerate of their parents ? at any age!
46:15
And We have enjoined the mankind to his parents? kindness
Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardship
Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 46:15 at other ages as well.
Quote from: SEid on May 22, 2011, 08:32:18 PM
And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat
He says, "My Lord...[/color]
The cause and effect of the verse seem to be: when one reaches maturity - symbolized as the age of 40 years, then one may acknowledge the value of following sentence:
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 03:05:53 PM
1000 years of difficulty minus 50 years that were as a contrast good.
50 of 1000 cannot be called bad then also called good.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 03:05:53 PM
12:47 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
12:48 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
12:49 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."
As said before, verse 29:14 has a special wording.
A person could say: I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
The explanation as found in Lane's dictionary seems not to be illogical.
An obvious contradiction and illogical; seven good which they stored their food followed by seven bad?
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 03:05:53 PM
Copy-paste from the link:
sha?nah years
The Hebrew word -shanah- for year is rather similar to the Arabic word -sana-
Perhaps they have it wrong ...
Hebrew Transliteration English
וַיִּֽהְיוּ֙ vai?yih?yu become
כָּל־ kol- all
יְמֵי־ ye?mei- day/era
נֹ֔חַ no?ach, Noah
תְּשַׁ֤ע te?sha nine
מֵאֹות֙ me?'o?vt hundred
שָׁנָ֔ה sha?nah, ?
וַחֲמִשִּׁ֖ים va?cha?mi?shim fifty
שָׁנָ֑ה sha?nah; ?
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 03:05:53 PM
Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 46:15 at other ages as well.
Therefore a contradiction as with the case of orphans marrying and getting their inheritance < age 40.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 03:05:53 PM
The cause and effect of the verse seem to be: when one reaches maturity - symbolized as the age of 40 years, then one may acknowledge the value of following sentence:
- "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
Again another contradiction soon as any believer < age 40 says that.
Quote from: SEid on May 23, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
50 of 1000 cannot be called bad then also called good.
The special wording of verse 29:14 seems to give the message that the years of Noah that he remained with his people were many and most of them were difficult. In a literal reading: 50 easier and 950 harder years.
As said before in analogy:
A person could say: I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
Quote from: SEid on May 23, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
An obvious contradiction and illogical; seven good which they stored their food followed by seven bad?
The first seven years can also be seen as hard years because of following:
12:47 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods,
except for the little that you will eat."
Quote from: SEid on May 23, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Perhaps they have it wrong ...
Hebrew Transliteration English
וַיִּֽהְיוּ֙ vai?yih?yu become
כָּל־ kol- all
יְמֵי־ ye?mei- day/era
נֹ֔חַ no?ach, Noah
תְּשַׁ֤ע te?sha nine
מֵאֹות֙ me?'o?vt hundred
שָׁנָ֔ה sha?nah, ?
וַחֲמִשִּׁ֖ים va?cha?mi?shim fifty
שָׁנָ֑ה sha?nah; ?
Both the Koran as the Torah indicate that the age of Noah was very high and that it is worthwhile to mention.
This is not the case with other prophets.
According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned with Noah and not with the other prophets?
Quote from: SEid on May 23, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Therefore a contradiction as with the case of orphans marrying and getting their inheritance < age 40.
Again another contradiction soon as any believer < age 40 says that.
There is not a contradiction - it depends on the context what the word -ashuddahu- means.
There are nevertheless the literal wording of verse 46:15 many children that are not getting breast-feeded until the total age of 30 -shahr- (including pregnancy).
The words are rather used in general in a normative way concerning the period of breast-feeding. This does not create a contradiction either.
As said before:
Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 46:15 at other ages as well.
This is not contradictory - it is rather the sometimes special use of language of the Koran.
Anyway for now I do not see any sense in a new usage of a 22 day period of counting.
From verse 46:15 one can not read a binding ruling in this matter - rather the contrary, seeing the other koranic verses.
It seems not to have any contact with phases of the moon or other phenomena - or with known calendars.
There does not seem to be any practical use for a period of 22 days as a way for counting time.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace Eid,
Quote from: SEid on May 20, 2011, 11:54:22 PMsanat سَ نَ ة cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
46:15 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years
Dear brother, I agree that "sana" and "aam" are different but forty sana cannot be 2.42 years. Reason is that if we read the rest of 46:15, we will see that upon reaching 40 sana, the person would say
"O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for your favour that you have bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness that you approve; and make my offspring good. I have repented to you and I am amongst the peacemakers." Surely, a 2.42 year old child cannot utter such prayer.
I think that if we look at all the passages where "sana" is mentioned, it seems to have to do with the natural cycle of the earth (For example, see 10:5 and 17:12).
On the other hand, "aam" seem to have to do with human calendars. For example, see "aamohm" (
their year):
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَاء إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌPeace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace truthseeker,
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 05:57:24 PM
Both the Koran as the Torah indicate that the age of Noah was very high and that it is worthwhile to mention.
This is not the case with other prophets.
According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned with Noah and not with the other prophets?
Samia explained it nicely in this thread...
Quote from: Samia on July 22, 2009, 08:19:27 AM
I do not think that Noah lived 950 years, otherwise, his people would have believed in his message, thinking that he was an extraordinary creature or an angel...
Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 23, 2011, 05:57:24 PM
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 46:15 at other ages as well.
Correct!
Quote from: ayman on May 24, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Peace Eid,
Dear brother, I agree that "sana" and "aam" are different but forty sana cannot be 2.42 years. Reason is that if we read the rest of 46:15, we will see that upon reaching 40 sana, the person would say "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for your favour that you have bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness that you approve; and make my offspring good. I have repented to you and I am amongst the peacemakers." Surely, a 2.42 year old child cannot utter such prayer.
I think that if we look at all the passages where "sana" is mentioned, it seems to have to do with the natural cycle of the earth (For example, see 10:5 and 17:12).
On the other hand, "aam" seem to have to do with human calendars. For example, see "aamohm" (their year):
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَاء إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thank you for that concise reply and sanat seems to fit perfectly with concept of time in general...
Here are verses for reference...
2:259 he said, "nay, you remained hundred AAam
9:28 so not let them come near al-masjid al-haraam after āmihim
9:37 they make it allowed AAam
9:37 and make it prohibited AAam
9:126 do not they see that they are tried in every AAam once or twice?
12:49 then comes from after that AAam
29:14 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat/time only fifty AAamA
31:14 and his separation in āmayni
2:96 if he could be granted life thousand sanat/time
5:26 so indeed it forbidden to them forty sanat/time they will wander in the earth
22:47 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat/time from what you reckon
29:14 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he stayed with them thousand sanat/time only fifty AAamA
32:5 in a day measure which is thousand sanat/time from what you reckon
46:15 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat/time
70:4 a day its measure fifty thousand sanat/time
7:130 and certainly, We seized people Firaun bil-sinīna/with the time and scarcity of the fruits
10:5 that you may know amount al-sinīna/the time and the count
12:42 so he remained in the prison short sinīna/time
12:47 he said, "You will sow seven sinīna/time as usual so what you reap so leave it in its ears only little from what you eat
17:12 and that you may know amount al-sinīna/the time and the count and everything We have explained it detailed
18:11 so We cast over their ears in the cave sinīna/time amount
18:25 and they remained in their cave three hundred sinīna/time and add nine
20:40 so you remained sinīna/time among people madyan
23:112 he?ll ask "how long did you remain in the earth, amount sinīna/time? They?ll say, "We remained a day or a part a day
26:18 he said, didn't we bring you up among us a child, and you remained among us from your life sinīna/time?
26:205 We let them enjoy sinīna/time
30:4 in short sinīna/time
6:152 and not go near wealth the orphans except with that which best until he reaches ashuddahu
12:22 and when he reached ashuddahu We gave him wisdom and knowledge
17:34 and not go near wealth the orphans except with that which best until he reaches ashuddahu
18:82 so intended your Lord that they reach ashuddahuma and bring forth their treasure
22:5 and We cause to remain in the wombs what We will for a term appointed moreover We bring you out a child moreover that you may reach ashuddakum
28:14 and when he reached ashuddahu wa-is'tawā We bestowed upon him wisdom and knowledge
40:67 furthermore He brings you out a child furthermore lets you reach ashuddakum
46:15 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat/time/phases/stages
Best regards,
Eid Abdullah
Quote from: SEid on May 24, 2011, 06:14:14 PM
Samia explained it nicely in this thread...
- I do not think that Noah lived 950 years, otherwise, his people would have believed in his message, thinking that he was an extraordinary creature or an angel... -
According to the Koran - several prophets had special signs next to the content of the message itself.
For instance:
- Abraham and the fire that was cool for him.
- Moses and the kane that became a snake and the special white hand.
- Jesus who called people back from the death, healing the sick.
A sign of Noah could be his high age - this can be seen as compatible with the extraordinary deeds of other messengers.
Also Abraham, Moses or Jesus could have been regarded as an extraordinary being because of the special signs.
That was probably the point of the signs - to have a special way of getting attention to the content of the message.
The question remains:
According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned in the Koran with Noah and not with the other prophets?
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
seid has a point about sinnean and hisab ,
even if he is mistaken he has done a good job by looking at this,he has an open mind.
i salute you seaid
thanks
you have a point i will look into this
Peace brother Eid,
Quote from: SEid on May 24, 2011, 06:24:18 PMThank you for that concise reply and sanat seems to fit perfectly with concept of time in general...
Here are verses for reference...
I agree that "sanat" fits in the concept of time in general. I would like to add that it is the concept of measuring time via a general natural cycle. On the other hand "aam" seems to be related to specific manmade calendars.
So the formula for Noah is:
1000 natural cycles - 50 calendar cyclesI don't know what this formula implies. Perhaps time on the arc time passed differently than on earth.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaamun alaikum,
I know it's been a long while since I have been on this board. Still haven't completed the project I wanted to do about so called quotes of Muhammad in hadith books vs. his quotes in the god's book but still intend to.
Anyway, just wanted to know Ayman if you could post the list you made of shahr ramadan months for several years. I had it saved but have since lost it when we moved.
I'd appreciate it.
Umm Tariq
Quote from: ayman on May 29, 2011, 02:29:43 PM
Peace brother Eid,
I agree that "sanat" fits in the concept of time in general. I would like to add that it is the concept of measuring time via a general natural cycle. On the other hand "aam" seems to be related to specific manmade calendars.
So the formula for Noah is:
1000 natural cycles - 50 calendar cycles
I don't know what this formula implies. Perhaps time on the arc time passed differently than on earth.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I?m still looking into this which it seems that different words could be used to describe a natural time cycle versus an event (point in time). Puzzling is the last line in Perf558 contains both sanat and shahr ?
(http://oi54.tinypic.com/2z811j6.jpg)
شهر shahr جمدى Jumada الاولى the first من from سنة sanat اثنين two وعشرين and twenty وكتبه and writing his ابن ibn حديدو hadiduwAlthough seems very suspicious like an attempt by someone clever inscribing modern Arabic script into the document to prove a point which it?s the only text from that time to contain dotting. Notice also the spacing ? why start writing in between Greek text when there was plenty of room left at the bottom?
On a side note; was vacationing last week in the south coast of Turkey and the room was built high on a hill and perhaps a sign exactly aligned same as the sleepers in the cave got to see the sun when it rose inclining away from the right and when it set passing away to the left ...
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=17
Peace
Peace -- it maybe helpful to understanding the use of alif at beginning of some words to denote plural and at end which the closest translation is like the word "for" in English.
11 singular
1. 2:185 shr Ramadan that was revealed in it the Quran
2. 2:185 so who shahida from you al-shr so he should fast it
3. 2:194 al-shr al-harām
4. 2:194 in al-shr al-harām
5. 2:217 they ask you about al-shr al-harām fighting in it
6. 5:2 not violate rites Allah and not al-shr al-harām
7. 5:97 and al-shr al-harām
8. 9:36 indeed count al-shwr with Allah (notice wa?)
9. 34:12 and to Sulaiman the wind its morning course shr
10. 34:12 and its afternoon course shr
11. 97:3 night the power better than thousand shr
2 dual
4:92 and who not find so fasting shryn mutatābiayni
58:4 so who not find so fasting shryn mutatābiayni
8 plural
1. 2:197 the hajj ashr (plural) well known
2. 2:226 to who swear from their women waiting four ashr (plural)
3. 2:234 and leave wives should wait with themselves four ashr (plural) and for ten wAsra
4. 9:2 so move about in the land four ashr (plural)
5. 9:5 so when have passed al-ashr (plural)
6. 65:4 the menstruation from your women if you doubt so their count three ashr (plural)
7. 9:36 (is) for twelve shra
8. 46:15 and We have enjoined the mankind in his parents kindness. Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardship. And carrying of him and his separation for thirty shra until when he reaches asdh and reaches forty snh he says, "My Lord ...
7 singular
1. 2:259 hundred Aam
2. 2:259 He said, ?No, you remained hundred Aam
3. 9:28 Aamhm (theirs)
4. 9:126 do not they see that they are tried in every Aam once or twice?
5. 12:49 then comes from after that Aam in it will be given abundant rain..."
6. 9:37 they make it allowed for Aama
7. 9:37 and make it prohibited for Aama
31:14 and his separation in Aamyn
29:14 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand snh only for fifty Aama
50 x 12 lunar months = 48.5112456 solar years
1,000 snh is probably non literal for numerous times like saying: ?We warned them a thousand times.?
70:1-4 asked a questioner about a punishment bound to happen to the disbelievers not of it any preventer from Allah owner the ways of ascent. Ascend al-malāikatu wal-rūḥu to Him in a day/time is its measure fifty thousand snh 70:5 So be patient...
Quote from: Umm Tariq on June 07, 2011, 02:23:40 AMI know it's been a long while since I have been on this board. Still haven't completed the project I wanted to do about so called quotes of Muhammad in hadith books vs. his quotes in the god's book but still intend to.
Anyway, just wanted to know Ayman if you could post the list you made of shahr ramadan months for several years. I had it saved but have since lost it when we moved.
I'd appreciate it.
Peace sister and it is good to see you back on the forum.
I think that the list is probably somewhere on the thread. The full-moon after the summer solstice will occur on July 15 this year.
The rule for determining when exactly the full moon occurs is given clearly by the following signs:
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk. 84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds. 84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.So after sunset when the sky is glowing red and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.
This year this will happen on July 15. So on July 15th shortly after sunset and from the opposite direction of its red afterglow the full moon will appear.
It is not the nearly full-moon on July 14th since this one will appear before sunset. It also cannot be the one on July 16th because it will appear long after sunset.
This same rule can be consistently applied every year. You can get the data about the moon and the sun from this link:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Eid,
Quote from: SEid on June 07, 2011, 01:04:49 PMI?m still looking into this which it seems that different words could be used to describe a natural time cycle versus an event (point in time). Puzzling is the last line in Perf558 contains both sanat and shahr ?
شهر shahr جمدى Jumada الاولى the first من from سنة sanat اثنين two وعشرين and twenty وكتبه and writing his ابن ibn حديدو hadiduw
Although seems very suspicious like an attempt by someone clever inscribing modern Arabic script into the document to prove a point which it?s the only text from that time to contain dotting. Notice also the spacing ? why start writing in between Greek text when there was plenty of room left at the bottom?
I think that you make some valid observations. It seems that the Arabic was added by a different scribe after the Greek was written. This is also seen in the difference of the wear between the Arabic and Greek text. However, it is probable that the Arabic was added very shortly after the Greek was written within a few days or weeks. However, I disagree that this is a clever attempt by someone to deceive. If they wanted to deceive then they wouldn't choose such a mundane text as the vehicle. Also, the research and disagreements about dotting is a modern debate. I do agree that the practice of forging documents was very much widespread in the so-called Islamic empire and we actually have many examples of blatant forgeries such as the letters supposedly sent by Mohamed to leaders of the ancient world.
Quote from: SEid on June 07, 2011, 01:04:49 PMOn a side note; was vacationing last week in the south coast of Turkey and the room was built high on a hill and perhaps a sign exactly aligned same as the sleepers in the cave got to see the sun when it rose inclining away from the right and when it set passing away to the left ...
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=17
Yes. This would indicate that the cave had southern exposure.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 26, 2011, 04:23:59 PM
Peace sister and it is good to see you back on the forum.
I think that the list is probably somewhere on the thread. The full-moon after the summer solstice will occur on July 15 this year.
The rule for determining when exactly the full moon occurs is given clearly by the following signs:
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds.
84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.
So after sunset when the sky is glowing red and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.
This year this will happen on July 15. So on July 15th shortly after sunset and from the opposite direction of its red afterglow the full moon will appear.
It is not the nearly full-moon on July 14th since this one will appear before sunset. It also cannot be the one on July 16th because it will appear long after sunset.
This same rule can be consistently applied every year. You can get the data about the moon and the sun from this link:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/
Peace
Both on 14th of July and 15th of July, the moon rises before sunset in for instance London, Great-Britain.
15th of July - in the table below.
This means that the above given interpretation of verses 84:16-18 is not correct, or at least not valid everywhere on earth.
Furthermore: the night that enshrouds is rather a while after sunset - when the darkness really starts, with the first stars - that is after the moonrise in July.
Truthseeker
-------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for London (longitude E0.2, latitude N51.5):
Friday
15 July 2011 Universal Time + 1h
SUN
Begin civil twilight 04:14
Sunrise 04:59
Sun transit 13:05
Sunset 21:11 End civil twilight 21:55
MOON
Moonrise 20:32 on preceding day
Moon transit 00:49
Moonset 05:12
Moonrise 21:03 Moonset 06:26 on following day
Full Moon on 15 July 2011 at 07:40 (Universal Time + 1h).
Quote from: truthseeker171 on June 27, 2011, 01:29:06 PMBoth on 14th of July and 15th of July, the moon rises before sunset in for instance London, Great-Britain.
15th of July - in the table below.
This means that the above given interpretation of verses 84:16-18 is not correct, or at least not valid everywhere on earth.
Furthermore: the night that enshrouds is rather a while after sunset - when the darkness really starts, with the first stars - that is after the moonrise in July.
From http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php :
QuoteSunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon, considered unobstructed relative to the location of interest. Atmospheric conditions are assumed to be average, and the location is in a level region on the Earth's surface.
Moonrise and moonset times are computed for exactly the same circumstances as for sunrise and sunset.
Please see the detailed data below (specifically the times marked in red), which shows that the full-moon will technically appear at almost the same time the sun disappears and not before the sun by 8 minutes as you indicated. According to the data, 21:05 is when the full-moon upper edge appears (not the whole symmetric full moon as the great reading clearly states). Now keeping in mind that the full-moon (and the sun) angular width is 0.5 degrees, by the time the entire full-moon appears over the horizon it will be about 20:10 and the sun would be below the horizon. Also, keep in mind that due to haze on the horizon and uneven terrain, even in a flat desert the full-moon will practically not be visible until it is 1-2 degrees above the horizon. So under the best circumstances it would be around 21:20 when Londoners would see the full-moon. As I previously said, as far as I know, this is true anywhere on earth except in extreme latitudes where the sun doesn?t set.
From: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
LONDON E 0 10, N51 30
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
Jul 15, 2011
Zone: 1h East of Greenwich
Altitude Azimuth
(E of N)
20:30 4.6 299.5
20:35 4.0 300.5
20:40 3.3 301.4
20:45 2.7 302.4
20:50 2.1 303.3
20:55 1.5 304.3
21:00 0.9 305.3
21:05 0.4 306.2
21:10 -0.8 307.221:15 -1.4 308.2
21:20 -2.0 309.2
21:25 -2.6 310.2
21:30 -3.2 311.2
LONDON E 0 10, N51 30
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 15, 2011
Zone: 1h East of Greenwich
Altitude Azimuth Fraction
(E of N) Illuminated
20:30 -5.4 112.3 1.00
20:35 -4.7 113.2 1.00
20:40 -4.0 114.1 1.00
20:45 -3.3 115.1 1.00
20:50 -2.6 116.0 1.00
20:55 -1.9 116.9 1.00
21:00 -1.3 117.9 1.00
21:05 -0.0 118.8 1.00
21:10 0.6 119.7 1.0021:15 1.1 120.7 1.00
21:20 1.7 121.6 1.00
21:25 2.3 122.6 1.00
21:30 2.9 123.6 1.00
Quote from: ayman on June 27, 2011, 08:27:51 PM
From http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php :
Please see the detailed data below (specifically the times marked in red), which shows that the full-moon will technically appear at almost the same time the sun disappears and not before the sun by 8 minutes as you indicated. According to the data, 21:05 is when the full-moon upper edge appears (not the whole symmetric full moon as the great reading clearly states). Now keeping in mind that the full-moon (and the sun) angular width is 0.5 degrees, by the time the entire full-moon appears over the horizon it will be about 20:10 and the sun would be below the horizon. Also, keep in mind that due to haze on the horizon and uneven terrain, even in a flat desert the full-moon will practically not be visible until it is 1-2 degrees above the horizon. So under the best circumstances it would be around 21:20 when Londoners would see the full-moon. As I previously said, as far as I know, this is true anywhere on earth except in extreme latitudes where the sun doesn?t set.
Peace Ayman,
180 degrees, 12 hours sunrise to sunset, 15 degrees/hour or 2 minutes for the sun's 1/2 degree to set.
It depends on location...
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us
http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/fullmoon.htm
Sort check dates for full moon after summer solstice June 21st. Here is Chicago...
U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9):
Thursday
11 July 1957 Central Standard Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 3:52 a.m.
Sunrise 4:25 a.m.
Sun transit 11:56 a.m.
Sunset 7:26 p.m.
End civil twilight 8:00 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 6:23 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 4:18 a.m.
Moonrise 7:04 p.m.
Moon transit 12:08 a.m. on following day
Moonset 5:16 a.m. on following day
Full Moon on 11 July 1957 at 4:50 p.m. Central Standard Time.
22 minutes Moonrise before Sunsets 3 July 1993 Central Daylight Time
Sunset 8:29 p.m.
Moonrise 8:15 p.m.
14 minutes Moonrise before Sunset Few observations:
97:3 night the power better than thousand shr
It's more precise, as better than single shr amplified 1000. Not written as 1000
ashr plural.
If calculating full moon or month, carrying him <= 6 lunar months; i.e. after 12 weeks weight is felt.
Using word substitution?
46:15 and carrying him and his separation
(for) thirty shr
a 31:14 and his separation <= Aamyn (2 x 12 lunar months)
30 shr
a - 24 lunar months his separation <= 6 lunar months carrying him
Quote from: ayman on June 27, 2011, 08:27:51 PM
From http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php :
Please see the detailed data below (specifically the times marked in red), which shows that the full-moon will technically appear at almost the same time the sun disappears and not before the sun by 8 minutes as you indicated. According to the data, 21:05 is when the full-moon upper edge appears (not the whole symmetric full moon as the great reading clearly states). Now keeping in mind that the full-moon (and the sun) angular width is 0.5 degrees, by the time the entire full-moon appears over the horizon it will be about 20:10 and the sun would be below the horizon. Also, keep in mind that due to haze on the horizon and uneven terrain, even in a flat desert the full-moon will practically not be visible until it is 1-2 degrees above the horizon. So under the best circumstances it would be around 21:20 when Londoners would see the full-moon. As I previously said, as far as I know, this is true anywhere on earth except in extreme latitudes where the sun doesn?t set.
Peace
The more one gets to the North the longer the time appears to be between the rise of the full moon and the sunset.
For instance Edinburgh:
U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Edinburgh (longitude W3.2, latitude N55.9):
Friday
15 July 2011 Universal Time + 1h
SUN
Begin civil twilight 03:52
Sunrise 04:48
Sun transit 13:19
Sunset 21:49 End civil twilight 22:45
MOON
Moonrise 21:09 on preceding day
Moon transit 01:03
Moonset 05:05
Moonrise 21:35 Moonset 06:24 on following day
Full Moon on 15 July 2011 at 07:40 (Universal Time + 1h).
This shows that there is not a general valid sequence, for places with sunset, that can be deduced from verses 84:16-18.
May be more to the South there would be a more consequent sequence of first the sunset and then the rise of the full moon.
But the wording -the night and what it enshrouds- of verse 84:17 disproves a possible sequence of events. The time just after sunset is a part of the -nahar- not of the -lail-, because just after sunset actually there is no darkness to cover things from sight. The full moon is already visible before the actual darkness is starting.
Anyway in the wording of verses 84:16-18 one can not find a linkage with the start of the fasting.
Peace,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Peace all,
If data is gathered for past traditional months of Ramadan and 1st visible full moon ...
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us
Ramadan in 2011 will start on Monday, the 1st of August
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Anchorage, Anchorage Borough, Alaska (longitude W149.9, latitude N61.2):
Saturday
13 August 2011 Alaska Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:06 a.m.
Sunrise 6:02 a.m.
Sun transit 2:04 p.m.
Sunset 10:04 p.m.
End civil twilight 11:00 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 9:13 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 1:42 a.m.
Moonset 6:24 a.m.
Moonrise 9:22 p.m.
Moonset 7:47 a.m. on following day
Full Moon on 13 August 2011 at 10:58 a.m. Alaska Daylight Time.
The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9):
Saturday
13 August 2011 Central Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:26 a.m.
Sunrise 5:57 a.m.
Sun transit 12:56 p.m.
Sunset 7:54 p.m.
End civil twilight 8:24 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 7:07 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 12:25 a.m.
Moonset 5:51 a.m.
Moonrise 7:35 p.m.
Moonset 6:53 a.m. on following day
Full Moon on 13 August 2011 at 1:58 p.m. Central Daylight Time.
The following information is provided for Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1):
Friday
12 August 2011 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:43 a.m.
Sunrise 6:07 a.m.
Sun transit 12:34 p.m.
Sunset 7:01 p.m.
End civil twilight 7:24 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 5:41 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 5:11 a.m.
Moonrise 6:22 p.m.
Moon transit 12:12 a.m. on following day
Moonset 6:05 a.m. on following day
Phase of the Moon on 12 August: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 13 August 2011 at 8:58 a.m. (Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time).
(http://oi51.tinypic.com/v8g00x.jpg)
2:185 shr (full moon) Ra-Mim-Dad -- to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)
9:36 indeed count al-shwr with Allah (for) twelve shra
9:37 they make it allowed (for) Aama and make it prohibited (for) Aama
I've checked prior years and believe the above pattern continues indefinetly...
Ramadan 2010 11th of August
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Anchorage, Anchorage Borough, Alaska (longitude W149.9, latitude N61.2):
Wednesday
22 September 2010 Alaska Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 7:01 a.m.
Sunrise 7:44 a.m.
Sun transit 1:52 p.m.
Sunset 7:59 p.m.
End civil twilight 8:42 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 7:07 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 1:04 a.m.
Moonset 7:21 a.m.
Moonrise 7:10 p.m.
Moonset 8:41 a.m. on following day
Phase of the Moon on 22 September: waxing gibbous with 100% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 23 September 2010 at 1:18 a.m. Alaska Daylight Time.
The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9):
Wednesday
22 September 2010 Central Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:10 a.m.
Sunrise 6:38 a.m.
Sun transit 12:43 p.m.
Sunset 6:48 p.m.
End civil twilight 7:16 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 5:48 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 11:49 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 5:58 a.m.
Moonrise 6:10 p.m.
Moonset 6:58 a.m. on following day
Phase of the Moon on 22 September: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 23 September 2010 at 4:18 a.m. Central Daylight Time.
The following information is provided for Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1):
Wednesday
22 September 2010 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:56 a.m.
Sunrise 6:18 a.m.
Sun transit 12:21 p.m.
Sunset 6:25 p.m.
End civil twilight 6:47 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 5:27 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 5:46 a.m.
Moonrise 6:00 p.m.
Moon transit 12:15 a.m. on following day
Moonset 6:35 a.m. on following day
Full Moon on 22 September 2010 at 11:18 p.m. (Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time).
Ramadan 2009 21 August
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Anchorage, Anchorage Borough, Alaska (longitude W149.9, latitude N61.2):
Thursday
3 September 2009 Alaska Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:11 a.m.
Sunrise 6:57 a.m.
Sun transit 1:59 p.m.
Sunset 8:58 p.m.
End civil twilight 9:44 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 8:20 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 1:01 a.m.
Moonset 5:58 a.m.
Moonrise 8:21 p.m.
Moonset 7:23 a.m. on following day
Phase of the Moon on 3 September: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 4 September 2009 at 8:03 a.m. Alaska Daylight Time.
The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9):
Thursday
3 September 2009 Central Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:50 a.m.
Sunrise 6:19 a.m.
Sun transit 12:50 p.m.
Sunset 7:20 p.m.
End civil twilight 7:49 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 6:21 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 11:45 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 5:16 a.m.
Moonrise 6:44 p.m.
Moonset 6:19 a.m. on following day
Phase of the Moon on 3 September: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 4 September 2009 at 11:03 a.m. Central Daylight Time.
The following information is provided for Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1):
Thursday
3 September 2009 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:51 a.m.
Sunrise 6:13 a.m.
Sun transit 12:28 p.m.
Sunset 6:43 p.m.
End civil twilight 7:05 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 5:39 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 5:26 a.m.
Moonrise 6:13 p.m.
Moon transit 12:13 a.m. on following day
Moonset 6:17 a.m. on following day
Phase of the Moon on 3 September: waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 4 September 2009 at 6:03 a.m. (Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time).
Quote from: SEid on June 28, 2011, 08:25:06 AM
Few observations:
97:3 night the power better than thousand shr
It's more precise, as better than single shr amplified 1000. Not written as 1000 ashr plural.
If calculating full moon or month, carrying him <= 6 lunar months; i.e. after 12 weeks weight is felt.
Using word substitution?
46:15 and carrying him and his separation (for) thirty shra
31:14 and his separation <= Aamyn (2 x 12 lunar months)
30 shra - 24 lunar months his separation <= 6 lunar months carrying him
Correction, it should be?
30 shra ? 24 (or less) lunar months his separation
=> 6 (to 10) lunar months carrying him
Quote from: SEid on June 28, 2011, 03:58:16 PM
If data is gathered for past traditional months of Ramadan and 1st visible full moon ...
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us
(http://oi51.tinypic.com/v8g00x.jpg)
2:185 shr (full moon) Ra-Mim-Dad -- to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)
9:36 indeed count al-shwr with Allah (for) twelve shra
9:37 they make it allowed (for) Aama and make it prohibited (for) Aama
I've checked prior years and believe the above pattern continues indefinetly...
It's not unique for the above 12 count cycle and seems to exist for every full moon.
The question remains how to identify Ramadan 12 count cycle; i.e. if one was on an island?
Peace brother Eid,
Quote from: SEid on June 28, 2011, 08:25:06 AMFew observations:
97:3 night the power better than thousand shr
It's more precise, as better than single shr amplified 1000. Not written as 1000 ashr plural.
In Arabic this is the case for all plurals above ten. For example, you also say 50,000 sana (year) and not 50,000 sanawat (years). You also say 1000 lyla (night) not 1000 layaly (nights). You also say 1000 ragl (man) and you don't say 1000 regal (men).
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on July 11, 2011, 02:24:09 AM
Peace brother Eid,
In Arabic this is the case for all plurals above ten. For example, you also say 50,000 sana (year) and not 50,000 sanawat (years). You also say 1000 lyla (night) not 1000 layaly (nights). You also say 1000 ragl (man) and you don't say 1000 regal (men).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace bro Ayman,
Yes, thanks that makes sense; not sure why sunnah written as سنة or snh is interpreted as year?
As in other languages roads/ways is used to mean multiples/times which resolves many of the issues...
2:96 if he could be granted life a thousand سنة times
2:255 Allah - no God only Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of all that exists;
Not overtakes Him سنة time and not sleep.
5:26 forbidden to them forty سنة times they will wander in the earth
15:13 not they believe in it and truly have passed سنة time the past
17:77 سنة way whom truly We sent before you of Our Messengers. And not you will find لِسُنَّتِنَا (in our way) any change.
18:54-55 And indeed We have explained in this the Quran to humanity of every example and is the human most things quarrelsome. And what prevents the human that they believe when has come to them the guidance and they ask their Lord, only that comes to them سنة time the past or comes to them the punishment ahead?
22:47 Day/time with your Lord like thousand سنة times/ways from what you reckon
29:14:9 and indeed, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand سنة times only (for) fifty Aam
a/years
32:5 Day/time measure which is thousand سنة times from what you reckon
33:38, 33:62 سنة time/way Allah
46:15 and carrying him and his separation (for) thirty shr
a until when he reaches asdh and reaches forty سنة times he says, "My Lord ...
forty multiples/times/ways is perhaps stage # of cell splits since inception:
2^40 2x2x2x2... = 1,097,728,000,000 or trillion divisions until adulthood
48:23 سنة time/way Allah which passed away from before and never you will find lisunnati in (the) way of Allah any change.
70:1-4 asked a questioner about a punishment bound to happen to the disbelievers not of it any preventer from Allah owner the ways of ascent. Ascend al-malāikatu wal-rūḥu to Him in a day/time is its measure fifty thousand سنة times
70:5 so be patient...
Likewise,
سَنَةٍ snh feminine cannot be the same as
عَامٍ Aam masculine or
سِنِينَ snyn masculine plural.
2:259 hundred Aam/year ... then He raised him. He said, "How long you remained?"He said, "I remained a day or part a day." He said, "No, you remained hundred Aam/year so look at your food and your drink not change time ytsnh يَتَسَنَّهْ
9:28 Aamhm/year theirs
9:37 they make it allowed (for) Aam
a/year and make it prohibited (for) Aam
a/year
9:126 do not they see that they are tried in every Aam/year once or twice?
12:49 then comes from after that Aam/year in it will be given abundant rain the people and in it they will press."
31:14 and his separation in Aamyn/two years
7:130 We seized people Firaun bal-snyn/in the years and scarcity of the fruits
10:5 & 17:12 that you may know amount al-snyn/the years and the count
12:42 so he remained in the prison short snyn/years
12:47-49 he said, "You will sow seven snyn/years as usual so what you reap so leave it in its ears except little from what you eat. Then comes from after that seven hard consume what you advanced for them except from what you store. Then comes from after that Aam/year in it will be given abundant rain the people and in it they will press."
18:11 so We cast over their ears in the cave snyn/years amount (duration in cave not specified)
18:25 and they remained in their cave three hundred snyn/years and add nine
300 x 12 months + 9 solar years = 300.067473 solar years is speculation refuted in the next verse...
18:26 Say, "Allah knows best about what they remained...
23:112 he?ll ask "how long did you remain in the earth, amount snyn/years?
26:18 he said, didn't we bring you up among us a child, and you remained among us from your life snyn/years?
26:205 We let them enjoy snyn/years
30:4 in short snyn/years
20:40 so you remained snyn/years among people madyan
Peace,
Eid
Salaam
The Qur'an enjoins those who witness the month of Ramadan to fast in it.
How does one witness a month? When you experience the day breaking and ending for around thirty/29 days. So those who live in the s/northern hemisphere do not witness some months, as the sun never sets or rises and so there is no distinct separation at dawn or towards night. This is a basic requirement for starting and ending fast and as one commentator said ? a common principle that any who suffers from impractibility, the relevant provision of law does not apply to him?
Best regards
farida
Peace,
This was probably already discussed, but as evident this thread is way too enormous to go through to find the answer.
I was just wondering why the "old palm sheath" metaphor for crescent, when the word for crescent is already clearly used? Does the metaphor lend to any additional clues or anything?
Salam,
QuoteI was just wondering why the "old palm sheath" metaphor for crescent, when the word for crescent is already clearly used? Does the metaphor lend to any additional clues or anything?
Because it is not referring to the "crescent", but the full moon (the old palm sheaths fall to both sides, making a full circle shape).
It has been a very long time since I have posted on this site and am not sure if my concern even fits this category but my question is why is it assumed that fasting means forsaking food and drink when the only example of fasting cited in the book is of Mary mother of Eesa and her example of fasting was no talking? Where is the command from Al Ilahe(The god) to abstain from food and drink?
Quote from: mekaeel7 on August 16, 2011, 08:16:10 PM
It has been a very long time since I have posted on this site and am not sure if my concern even fits this category but my question is why is it assumed that fasting means forsaking food and drink when the only example of fasting cited in the book is of Mary mother of Eesa and her example of fasting was no talking? Where is the command from Al Ilahe(The god) to abstain from food and drink?
The Holy Quran, Surah Al Baqarah 2:187
?Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are limits (set by) Allah: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint
Ok, I am well aware of this ayat but the problem still remains in my mind concerning the fast of Mary mother of Eesa being that she not speak not eating played no part in this description of what fasting entails. The ayat that you quoted does not say "and abstain from eating and drinking and sexual intercourse". Other than the description of the fast of Mary, not speaking, there is no other ayah that describes what exactly entails, is there?
Quote from: Layth on August 16, 2011, 05:10:09 AMBecause it is not referring to the "crescent", but the full moon (the old palm sheaths fall to both sides, making a full circle shape).
This is incorrect because the passage uses the singular "sheath" while, as you can see, you had to use the plural sheaths to turn it into the sheaths falling on both sides (even this is an incorrect imagery since it doesn't have the same shape of the full round circle of the full-moon).
Since the passage talks about a single sheath then this is clearly referring to the crescent shape.
The passage talks about descending stages "manazil" (from NZL: Descend). Since the moon can only descend in size from the full-moon, then it is clearly talking about the cycle starting from the full-moon and descending in stages until it becomes a crescent.
Peace,
Ayman
Assalaamu wa alaikum
it returns as a curved sheath (singular). so the new moon is basically the zero moon or the astronomical new moon, which is before the crescent. when there is no moon in the sky.
the main problem is that the moon cycle is not a strict 29 or 30 days. rather 29.53 days. sometimes you will not see the new moon because the new moon might take place when it is day on earth, and by the time the sun sets, the crescent has already appeared.
if the moon returns as a curved sheath. then the next phase after the waning crescent is no moon in the sky, which can be easily confirmed through naked eye and telescope, where neither can contradict each other.
as shahr is something obvious it may be the phase when there is no moon, and it is obvious, even if you go to a mountain you won't see it.
as our calendar is similar to the scripture, the people of the book also use the astonomical new moon which is the zero moon to identify the new month.
Regarding the month of ramadhan, my opinion is there are a couple of definitions for the word ramadh, with i think shortness of rations predominating the heat interpretation.
if we denote rabi al awwal as the start of the grazing season, which starts in april, the grazing season finishes in autumn. there is shortness of rations as the trees shed their foliage. If we take rabia al awwal as april in the grazing season, then if we count down the months till ramadhan in order, we will find that it falls in october which falls in autumn.
in addition the word ramidha is used as a name in muslims and arabs and means white rose. As you know white roses or in general roses are particularly attached with autumn.
http://www.special-dictionary.com/names/r/ramidha_14.htm
that is why we have the famous " autumn rose "
As seasons are based on harvest, i would interpret ramadhan as ramidha or shortness of rations.
Salaam
Peace Nadeem,
Quote from: nadeem1 on October 05, 2011, 07:34:54 PMit returns as a curved sheath (singular). so the new moon is basically the zero moon or the astronomical new moon, which is before the crescent. when there is no moon in the sky.
Have you ever seen a curved sheath?? It is certainly not invisible like the zero moon or even barely visible like the new moon crescent.
Also, the shape of the curved sheath can be either the waning crescent or the waxing crescent. How did you decide which one?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone :peace:
I Just wanted to note that the Qurna states that in sura 9
QuoteThe hypocrites worry that a sura may be revealed exposing what is inside their hearts. Say, "Go ahead and mock. GOD will expose exactly what you are afraid of."(9:64)
يَحْذَرُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ أَن تُنَزَّلَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُورَةٌ تُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ ۚ قُلِ اسْتَهْزِئُوا إِنَّ اللَّـهَ مُخْرِجٌ مَّا تَحْذَرُونَ ﴿٦٤﴾
Quote"...They said, "Let us not mobilize in this heat!" Say, "The fire of Hell is much hotter," if they could only comprehend. (9:81)
Quote
"Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed...(2:185)
Based on this evidence, can is it not rightfull to say that the "scorching hot" month is the month of ramadan
Peace All,
I have just gone through this whole thread from when it started years back. Phew! What a fantastic read. Can anyone tell me the names of the 4 restricted months?
Peace.
Quote from: farida on August 13, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Salaam
The Qur'an enjoins those who witness the month of Ramadan to fast in it.
How does one witness a month? When you experience the day breaking and ending for around thirty/29 days. So those who live in the s/northern hemisphere do not witness some months, as the sun never sets or rises and so there is no distinct separation at dawn or towards night. This is a basic requirement for starting and ending fast and as one commentator said ? a common principle that any who suffers from impractibility, the relevant provision of law does not apply to him?
Best regards
farida
salam,
In the qur'an are signs for people who use their god given reasoning faculty.
If one asks how can one witness a month, then this person must continue asking other questions, such as how can one fast a full moon, or how can one fast while at work on the space station. Yet a better thoughtful question, how can believers fast someday while working on the moon itself.
I mean no ills for anyone.
sincerely
khodr
Quote from: youssef4342 on December 02, 2011, 01:23:37 PM
Peace everyone :peace:
I Just wanted to note that the Qurna states that in sura 9
Quote
The hypocrites worry that a sura may be revealed exposing what is inside their hearts. Say, "Go ahead and mock. GOD will expose exactly what you are afraid of."(9:64)
يَحْذَرُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ أَن تُنَزَّلَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُورَةٌ تُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ ۚ قُلِ اسْتَهْزِئُوا إِنَّ اللَّـهَ مُخْرِجٌ مَّا تَحْذَرُونَ ﴿٦٤﴾
Quote
"...They said, "Let us not mobilize in this heat!" Say, "The fire of Hell is much hotter," if they could only comprehend. (9:81)
Quote
"Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed...(2:185)
Based on this evidence, can is it not rightfull to say that the "scorching hot" month is the month of ramadan
dear youssef
was the Quran not revealed in stages? can we really conclude from the wording of Sura 9 that
1. something was
really revealed because the subjunctive is used (The hypocrites worry that a sura
may be revealed exposing what is inside their hearts.)
2. deduced from the fact
that the entire Quran was sent down completely during Ramadan?
If this was so, then your conclusions are correct.
If he was not fully revealed in Ramadan, but over a longer period, then your conclusions are not correct and Ayman could be quite.
how the Koran was sent down? :confused:
Quote from: mirjamnur on February 19, 2012, 11:57:13 AMwas the Quran not revealed in stages? can we really conclude from the wording of Sura 9 that
1. something was really revealed because the subjunctive is used (The hypocrites worry that a sura may be revealed exposing what is inside their hearts.)
2. deduced from the fact that the entire Quran was sent down completely during Ramadan?
If this was so, then your conclusions are correct.
If he was not fully revealed in Ramadan, but over a longer period, then your conclusions are not correct and Ayman could be quite.
how the Koran was sent down? :confused:
I think that the key is to understand the difference between INZAL (happens during the night of measure/ the scorching full moon, which also happens during the hot time of the year) and TANZIL (happens gradually on the heart of the prophet). One can then see that the two complement each other and are not mutually exclusive. This was discussed previously in the forum.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
thank you very much.
where it was discussed?you can give me the link? or it's all in the' hot ramadan'?thank you for your help.
Salaam,
I'm looking for it as well. And people who don t agree can you place your arguments please cause that would help out as well.
peace
In Qur'an, Ramadaan is not used for a month but rather a category of 'Negatives of life' like 'Don'ts of life'. In human nature, the negative approaches such as self caring, non-factual, emotional, blind following, or thinking only of him/herself, family etc and not of collective life is where the problem is. With such approaches, it may not be devastating upfront, but collective human life suffers miserably when all is said and done. That's what was referred 'Ramadaan' as a category and was mentioned that Qur'an was brought forth for this category of approach since guidance is needed only where there are things that are not to be done. The objective was successful, progressive, bountiful, responsible, harmonious human life in this world.
Whenever, wherever you encounter that category, stay away (Saum) from it. If humans did not have that negatives in biological makeup, they would not need any guidance. So it was not any month of Ramadaan or fasting of food that Qur'an talked about. Its message was to address individual approach of life based on successful collective human life so that whatever we do in our individual capacity, it should be a very thought out approach based upon successful of collective human life. That's what is most difficult for human being.
Quote from: mirjamnur on February 23, 2012, 05:07:51 AMthank you very much.
where it was discussed?you can give me the link? or it's all in the' hot ramadan'?thank you for your help.
It was discussed in several places in the forum.
In summary, the great reading was descended in two stages and two distinct veb forms are used ti denote both stages. The first stage is "inzal" in one night per year (laylatu al-qadr/shahr ramadan). The second stage is gradual "tanzil" to the prophet's heart by the spirit Gabriel (see 26:192-195, 25:32).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace everyone,
The scorching full-moon, which is the first full-moon after the summer solstice, will occur on the night of July 3rd, 2012. So fasting will begin on July 4th and last for 10 days until July 13th.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on June 17, 2012, 11:53:53 AM
Peace everyone,
The scorching full-moon, which is the first full-moon after the summer solstice, will occur on the night of July 3rd, 2012. So fasting will begin on July 4th and last for 10 days until July 13th.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
Selam Ayman
Will this be the case for the northern hemisphere?
Peace
Concerning the duration and timing of the fast following threads can be useful to read:
duration: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0
a fasting-period of three days - this year at 2th, 3th and 4th of July, might be most probable according to the literal reading of relevant verses, especially verse 2:185
timing: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600827.0
the fasting is connected to the remembrance of the arrival of the Koran according to verse 2:185, this is at the same time for the believers living on the northern and southern hemisphere, the -shahr ramadan- where the Koran arrived - in Arabia.
salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Way to confusing...Ill stick to Ramadan beginning on the fullmoon after summer solstice(July 3rd,2012) and fasting 30 days since from one fullmoon to the next is roughly 30 days. and The night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr"),in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat which would be the 1st day/night of ramadan.
Some will argue that 2:185 "let him abstain it" means the first day of the fullmoon,some will say its the whole 10 day period, and some will say the whole period of 30 days. This is my way of keeping it until I learn Ancient Arabic so I can read it myself, or until Allah shows me different. Peace.
Peace all.
" Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord. Do not follow other idols beside HIM."
Whatever your understanding so far from reading/studying the Koran do it, and trust in your Creator to make things clear to you , as you progress through HIS trial.
Remember you are submitting and relying on your Lord Alone. Others , whether from this site and whatever they claim, are giving their views.
Keep checking with GOD Alone.
Peace.
good logic, good logic :bravo:
Salaam JKRethland
It is a good approach to respect each others reading of the book, but may be the subject of the communal fast should not be confusing at all.
22:78 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...
- A fasting of 30 or 31 days during the hottest period of the year - I do not think this is compatible with verse 22:78.
May be rich people who do not have to work hard during the daytime and have airco could fast without too much hardship a longer period of time, this is not so for the not so rich people.
2:184 [Fasting for] a limited number -ma'doodatin- of days ...
For the people who missed one or more days, they should fast other days and fulfill the count - a count until three is a count.
The central word is -ma'doodatin-, the duration of the fast and of the full moon.
The Koran is perfect and clear and gives the meaning of this word.
2:203 And remember Allah during [specific] numbered -ma'doodatin- days. Then whoever hastens [his departure] in two days - there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays - there is no sin upon him...
From this verse we can learn that -ma'doodatin- is as a standard the number three.
3:24 That is because they say, "Never will the Fire touch us except for [a few] numbered -ma'doodatin- days," and [because] they were deluded in their religion by what they were inventing.
This verse may relate to a possible mockery concerning the christian belief that the prophet Isa entered hell for a period of three days,
I can hardly imagine that one would say that one would accept to stay in the fire for a period of more than a few days - I do not think 30 or 31 is relevant here.
Anyway I wish you and other readers a blessed fasting period.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on June 24, 2012, 03:26:41 PM
Concerning the duration and timing of the fast following threads can be useful to read:
duration: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0
a fasting-period of three days - this year at 2th, 3th and 4th of July, might be most probable according to the literal reading of relevant verses, especially verse 2:185
correction:
a fasting-period of three days - this year at 3th, 4th and 5th of July, might be most probable according to the literal reading of relevant verses, especially verse 2:185.
These three days have a moon that is at least 98.5 percent visible.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam TruthSeeker171,
We fasted in May 2012 [for three days] on 5th, 6th and 7th because of the full moon on those three days during the hottest month :D This was our second year that we fast three days in hottest month as per Allah's guidance. :handshake:
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: mmkhan on July 02, 2012, 03:16:02 AM
We fasted in May 2012 [for three days] on 5th, 6th and 7th because of the full moon on those three days during the hottest month :D This was our second year that we fast three days in hottest month as per Allah's guidance.
Salaam Mmkhan
As far as I know the hottest month on the Northern Hemisphere is in general:
continental climate - July, because of the summersolstice
maritime climate - August, because of the gradual warming of the sea during summer
- of course there can be local differences.
But these differences over the world seem not to be relevant for the communal fast because of following:
According to verse 2:185, the fasting is linked to the arrival of the Quran, the fasting can be a celebration for the Guidance that has been received.
2:185
The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore,
those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and
glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
This is for me the main reason that all believers over the world can abstain at the same days all over the world - namely the full moon when the Quran has arrived, most probably that was the -scorching moon- in Arabia.
In Arabia the most reddish full moon, during the most hot period, is the first one after 21th of June, this year 3th,4th and 5th of July.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaams truthseeker, and thanks for the info. Three days sounds better to me, but, I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days, but inshaAllah, if I am wrong may Allah guide me to the right decision.
The Full moon is on July 3 at 02:51:54 pm Eastern Time(USA), which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period. Three day periods would be 4th,5th,& 6th going by that.
http://www.fullmoon.info/en/fullmoon-calendar.html
July & August are the hottest months where I live. :sun:
Quote from: JKRethland on July 02, 2012, 08:46:32 AM
Salaams truthseeker, and thanks for the info. Three days sounds better to me, but, I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days, but inshaAllah, if I am wrong may Allah guide me to the right decision.
The Full moon is on July 3 at 02:51:54 pm Eastern Time(USA), which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period. Three day periods would be 4th,5th,& 6th going by that.
http://www.fullmoon.info/en/fullmoon-calendar.html
July & August are the hottest months where I live. :sun:
Salam, Peace,
any quranic support for the "I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days,"?
thanks
Salaam JKRethland
According to the Bible Moses, Elijah and Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights, these where special people with special assignments.
Nowhere these ways of fasting are prescribed in the Bible for the ordinary believers.
The Jewish people have only an obligatory fast of 24 hours - yaum kipoor-, Christians actually have no obligatory fast prescribed in the Bible.
22:78 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent.
So one can witness the full moon this year (here in Western-Europe) at the evening of 2th of July, then the night of the fast begins (2:187) to prepare for the fast, the actual fasting can be then at 3th,4th and 5th of July.
If you would fast the 6th of July - then the moon is not full anymore when seen with the naked eye - it has about only 95 percent visibility, then you would go across the time-frame as given in verse 2:185 - to fast the duration of the -scorching full moon- itself, not any moment longer.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: herbman on July 02, 2012, 09:38:47 AM
Salam, Peace,
any quranic support for the "I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days,"?
thanks
Peace,
7:142 is where I was getting the "whole month+10 days" for Musa. Yeah I see its not exactly referring to ramadan. I may have to adjust my view or at least not use this surah in reference to ramadan. But there is 29/30 days between one full moon and another. Hmmm 3 days or 29? May Allah rightly guide us.
As for Isa , it mentions he fasted 40 days in the Gospels. I mentioned it as an example. Just like some use the OT to show that David prayed 3 times a day, Evening, and morning, and at noon Psalm 55:17-18.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on July 02, 2012, 09:43:57 AM
Salaam JKRethland
According to the Bible Moses, Elijah and Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights, these where special people with special assignments.
Nowhere these ways of fasting are prescribed in the Bible for the ordinary believers.
The Jewish people have only an obligatory fast of 24 hours - yaum kipoor-, Christians actually have no obligatory fast prescribed in the Bible.
22:78 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent.
So one can witness the full moon this year (here in Western-Europe) at the evening of 2th of July, then the night of the fast begins (2:187) to prepare for the fast, the actual fasting can be then at 3th,4th and 5th of July.
If you would fast the 6th of July - then the moon is not full anymore when seen with the naked eye - it has about only 95 percent visibility, then you would go across the time-frame as given in verse 2:185 - to fast the duration of the -scorching full moon- itself, not any moment longer.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
The Full moon here in Central time zone USA is on July 3rd at 01:51:54 pm , which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period to fast. Three day periods here would be 4th,5th,& 6th.The moon want be full here on the 2nd, just the nights of 3rd,4th,& 5th. And cant fast the 3rd as the fullmoon isnt until almost 2 pm in the afternoon.
Quote from: JKRethland on July 02, 2012, 10:20:20 AM
The Full moon here in Central time zone USA is on July 3rd at 01:51:54 pm , which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period to fast. Three day periods here would be 4th,5th,& 6th.The moon want be full here on the 2nd, just the nights of 3rd,4th,& 5th. And cant fast the 3rd as the fullmoon isnt until almost 2 pm in the afternoon.
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent. Probably also near your place at the evening of 2th July the moon can be witnessed as full - with the naked eye. So you could fast the 3th,4th and 5th of July.
The -scientific full moon- lasts only a few minutes - but with the naked eye it can be witnessed three days, the difference between 98.5 and 99.9 is hardly noticeable. Actually the real scientific full moon would be a lunar eclipse - so this means that the moon is never exactly seen as full.
The 6th of July according to the tables, the moon will be shrunk to about 95 percent visibility and is not full anymore.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on July 02, 2012, 02:12:53 PM
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent. Probably also near your place at the evening of 2th July the moon can be witnessed as full - with the naked eye. So you could fast the 3th,4th and 5th of July.
The -scientific full moon- lasts only a few minutes - but with the naked eye it can be witnessed three days, the difference between 98.5 and 99.9 is hardly noticeable. Actually the real scientific full moon would be a lunar eclipse - so this means that the moon is never exactly seen as full.
The 6th of July according to the tables, the moon will be shrunk to about 95 percent visibility and is not full anymore.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
After lookin at this link http://www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/moon-phases/ I see what your talking about, tonight it will be 98 % tomorrow 100% and Wednesday it will be 98%.
So the fast shouldnt actually start on the actual full moon but what it appears to be.
Quote from: JKRethland on July 02, 2012, 03:27:52 PM
After lookin at this link http://www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/moon-phases/ I see what your talking about, tonight it will be 98 % tomorrow 100% and Wednesday it will be 98%.
So the fast shouldnt actually start on the actual full moon but what it appears to be.
Agreed - one can witness the full moon if it appears to be full with the naked eye. This is a natural way of using the moon as a calendar.
A moon can be never perfectly full as seen from the earth, because only a lunar eclipse would be the perfect balanced full moon.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on July 02, 2012, 07:19:31 AM
Salaam Mmkhan
As far as I know the hottest month on the Northern Hemisphere is in general:
continental climate - July, because of the summersolstice
maritime climate - August, because of the gradual warming of the sea during summer
- of course there can be local differences.
But these differences over the world seem not to be relevant for the communal fast because of following:
According to verse 2:185, the fasting is linked to the arrival of the Quran, the fasting can be a celebration for the Guidance that has been received.
2:185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
This is for me the main reason that all believers over the world can abstain at the same days all over the world - namely the full moon when the Quran has arrived, most probably that was the -scorching moon- in Arabia.
In Arabia the most reddish full moon, during the most hot period, is the first one after 21th of June, this year 3th,4th and 5th of July.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salaam brother,
Sorry for late reply.
I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2:185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.
BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.
Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path :pr
mmkhan
Quote from: mmkhan on July 06, 2012, 03:19:27 AM
I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2:185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.
BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.
Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.
Salaam brother
2:185 The
-shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down/revealed as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2:185 as was suggested.
12:2 We have sent it down an Arabic Quran/recitation, perhaps you will reason.
It is true - we do not have 100 percent evidence that the actual sending down on the person that received the Koran happened in Arabia at that moment.
Though there is enough circumstantial evidence found in the Koran to assume that Mohammad was in an arid area on the Northern Hemisphere. I do not have any evidence that shows otherwise. Hence the first full moon after the summersolstice of the Northern Hemisphere seems to be the right one.
There is no indication that Mohammed lived in a maritime west-coast climate, that is one of the rare climates that has August as the warmest period of the year.
Salaam,
Truthseeker
Disclaimer: the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 17:36.
Salam Ayman.
I believe you have seen this; http://www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2505 This guy said he debated with you in 2006 on this subject. Cannot see it on here, seems to be a big gap from 2005-2007 I have been studying this subject, and I am confused as to how Ma'doodat means a number from 3-10. This guy says some horrible things about you, which I find completely unfounded. The point he makes is that the AT at the end is only for grammatical Ayaam Madoodat is also valid, in this case the AT may be added to describe the feminine plural Ayaam, again the meaning of the word Madoodat STAYS THE SAME.
Could you be so kind and explain this to me, as I am a little confused.
I appreciate your time and kind response.
Salam Simone.
Quote from: truthseeker171 on July 09, 2012, 12:37:00 PM
In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2:185 as was suggested.
Salaam brother,
Oh! Sorry again for a month late reply as I missed this thread and was not remember to answer this. Anyways, here it goes...
If you understood the red part above, than you can also understand that "sent down" of rain does not mean that "rain will not send down anymore". Hope you understand what I am saying, inshaAllah.
And there are several aayaats that says about AlQuraan which is still under process of sending down. If you are interested inshaAllah I will write about it.
About Mohammed, please click here (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604108.msg302100#msg302100)
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path :pr
mmKhan
Peace Simone,
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on August 03, 2012, 01:23:41 PMI believe you have seen this; http://www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2505 This guy said he debated with you in 2006 on this subject. Cannot see it on here, seems to be a big gap from 2005-2007 I have been studying this subject, and I am confused as to how Ma'doodat means a number from 3-10. This guy says some horrible things about you, which I find completely unfounded. The point he makes is that the AT at the end is only for grammatical Ayaam Madoodat is also valid, in this case the AT may be added to describe the feminine plural Ayaam, again the meaning of the word Madoodat STAYS THE SAME.
Could you be so kind and explain this to me, as I am a little confused.
I appreciate your time and kind response.
Sorry for late reply. Just saw this post.
The meaning of the term "maadoodat" is given by the dictionary as "few". You can see this here:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/maxq_2006/lexi-madood.gif)
If the meaning is not the dictionary meaning and instead means "counted" then what is the purpose of saying that? It becomes superfluous and useless information since any number is counted.
This guy used to post on this forum and he could never explain why he felt so strongly that he needed to deviate from the Classical Arabic dictionary meaning even when his interpretation made the word superfluous. I think his only objective was to argue against me :) and he couldn't see beyond this and realize the implications of his own interpretation.
Not sure where he stands on other issues right now but as far as I remember at the time he was promoting idols like the stone cube, etc. I think that he wasn't very happy when I exposed his filthy idols. :)
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman.
LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. :o Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! :jedi:
Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. :brickwall: :confused: ;)
Peace S-d,
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on January 02, 2013, 12:39:37 PMLOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. :o Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! :jedi:
Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. :brickwall: :confused: ;)
If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book:
www.quran4peace.org
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on January 02, 2013, 03:32:28 PM
Peace S-d,
If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book:
www.quran4peace.org
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
What do you think about this ?
Firstly you must remember
that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.
Did you know
that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?
Did you know
that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10
Peace
Peace all.
I realize that this thread is extremely long, and what I am about to write may have already been said or replied to, but in the case that it hasn't, I'll see what people think.
I've been studying the Qur'an in regards to "ramadan". I read Ayman's article about it and honestly found a lot very interesting and could see some basis for it in the Qur'an as well as in 'Arabic dictionaries. However, when discussing the issue last night with my wife a few things came up that have got me thinking.
The definitions of the key words "m'addudat","shahr", and "ramadan" are really the main issues that I believe, once understood correctly, will solve the meaning of the the time and length of the fasting period.
1. I have noted several definition for the root Ayn-Dal-Dal: counted, numbered, and as Ayman pointed out from the Qur'an itself as well as in classical 'Arabic dictionaries, few. All of these definitions can be quite subjective and relative; someone could argue that 29-30 days out of 365 days could be considered a few. I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but I understand it.
2. In terms of "completing the count" in 2:185, this can also be taken to mean different things depending on the meaning of the other words in question. My wife asked why we would have to look at a verse about Hajj to determine the length of fasting, and I was a little confused myself. I wonder if there is an easier way of understanding the exact length of the fasting period based on the verses in relation to fasting itself instead of having to look in so many different places to put a puzzle together. One very interesting thing I noticed is that in 89:2 God is swearing/taking an oath on 10 nights. What are these ten nights? They must be significant indeed.
3. The definition of "shahr" as "full moon" is understandable and logical as a "full moon" fits the description of the root Sh-ha-Ra as being "apparent, manifest, conspicuous, public". I found it weird that dictionaries gave the definition of "new moon" as that is not "apparent" at all as far as I am concerned. However, the first sighting of the moon in its phase does make sense to use as a starting point of a time period. When I look at images of the lunar phases I find that the nights before and after the "full moon" look identical to me, so this confuses me as to how it is any easier to determine for lay folk like myself without the use of a "calendar" of sorts.
4. The root Ra-Meem-Dad does definitely refer to intense heat, but again this is a little subjective in my opinion regarding when this time actually is. Brother Ayman has put forward the idea that this is the "full moon" of the summer solstice, but I was thinking the "full moon" following the summer solstice is actually during the middle (hottest time) of summer, and this might fit the description better.
Again, please forgive me if I am being repetitive or if these issues have already been clarified.
May God increase our knowledge.
Peace,
Please excuse me and disregard #4 of my previous post. As I read over the article and thread again last night I realized that Ayman is talking about the full moon following the summer solstice, which makes much more sense.
After re-reading as much as I could yesterday, the main thing that I cannot get my head around is this "complete the count=10 days" understanding.
In one post brother Ayman said:
..."2:185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose"
I have yet to understand how this is possible. To the best of my knowledge, in order to understand this complete the count, we must look at verses regarding Hajj and Moses' appointment with God on the mount. Is there not a clear cut answer to the duration of the fast within the command itself without unraveling a mystery?
I believe God gave us clear commands to follow that are straightforward, and although certain things required a little thought and consideration for me to understand what I do at this point, fasting/abstinence seems to be a tricky one to figure out solely from the verses dealing with the actual command.
Again, if someone could break down the whole "a few days/complete the count=10 days" from 2:184-185, I would really appreciate it.
God bless.
James
Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.
I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.
1. A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
2. The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".
I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.
Peace be with you.
Please forgive me for being repetitive. I wrote the following as a message to a brother, and I thought that it was the most complete, pardon the pun, question/comment I have put together so far on this subject.
One of the major things regarding the duration of the abstinence I am trying to understand is in regard to the theory of "complete the count" being ten.
I understand exactly what you are saying about putting things in different verses together to grasp a concept, but in my experience I have always found logic in the connections because the verses were related in terms of the subject. For example, although I still may have lots to learn on the subject, I found that the times of salat were found in the limited verses dealing specifically with salat and not from verses on fasting. Likewise, with the topic of fasting/abstinence I expect to find a clear answer about the duration within the verses about the topic itself.
In this case we are looking at the meaning of "complete the count". From what I understand of your explanation and the explanations of many others this phrase in 'Arabic is found throughout the Qur'an to indicate ten. However, in the verses you mentioned I do not see a clear connection.
Let me try to explain:
2:185 "walitukmiloo alAAiddata" and complete the count
2:196 "tilka AAasharatun kamilatun" = this is ten complete
7:142 "waatmamnaha biAAashrin" = and we completed then with ten
28:27 "fa-in atmamta AAashran" = but if you complete ten
The only verse above that contains a word from the same root "kaf-meem- lam" as in 2:185, is 2:196. However, this verse, in my understanding, is talking about Hajj and that three days are to be fasted while at/on/in Hajj and 7 once the individual has returned home. I do not know why God chose to say "this is ten complete", but I do not see how we can use this verse about Hajj to define the duration of the annual fast of Ramadan. To me it is similar to a discussion I had years ago with someone trying to define the night and day by the time of fasting mentioned in 2:187.
Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 16:25. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.
As for the other verses, neither say "complete the count". 7:142 talks about "completing 30 WITH 10" to make 40, so 40 is the actual total. In 28:27 Moses' father in law is giving him an option to complete 10 hajj's if he volunteered to do extra work.
It just seems a like bit of a disjointed argument to tie these verses together to arrive at an understanding of "complete the count" in 2:185. I have been thinking of an alternative, but the only thing I could think of, which another brother already pointed out, is that "complete the count" is simply referring to completing the days that one was unable to fast due to to illness or because of travelling. Perhaps "ma'doodat" is all we need in terms of a duration. Maybe God left it up to the individual to fast however many days they are able to as long as it is a "few" after witnessing "shahr ramadan"? I'm not entirely sure yet, but I do see some apparent inconsistencies in the "complete count" being ten argument.
I hope no one takes this as an attack or anything of the sort. I simply want to discuss this matter intelligently with anyone willing to, and pray that God guides us to the truth.
God bless.
James
Peace Farida,
Quote from: farida on January 02, 2013, 03:51:19 PMWhat do you think about this ?
Firstly you must remember
that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.
Did you know
that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?
Did you know
that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10
Language is not an issue. The bigger problem for being guided to a better understanding has nothing to do with language:
ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ
2:2. This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful
شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ الْقُرْآنُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَاتٍ مِّنَ الْهُدَى وَالْفُرْقَانِ فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ يُرِيدُ اللّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلاَ يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
وَالْبُدْنَ جَعَلْنَاهَا لَكُم مِّن شَعَائِرِ اللَّهِ لَكُمْ فِيهَا خَيْرٌ فَاذْكُرُوا اسْمَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهَا صَوَافَّ فَإِذَا وَجَبَتْ جُنُوبُهَا فَكُلُوا مِنْهَا وَأَطْعِمُوا الْقَانِعَ وَالْمُعْتَرَّ كَذَلِكَ سَخَّرْنَاهَا لَكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
لَن يَنَالَ اللَّهَ لُحُومُهَا وَلَا دِمَاؤُهَا وَلَكِن يَنَالُهُ التَّقْوَى مِنكُمْ كَذَلِكَ سَخَّرَهَا لَكُمْ لِتُكَبِّرُوا اللَّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَبَشِّرِ الْمُحْسِنِينَNotice that the term "magnify the god for what he has guided you" only occurs with respect to the timing of the fast and the feeding of the poor in the feast. So only those who are guided will know those concepts. This is why they may not be easy.
Peace,
Ayman
Quote from: jtc on February 24, 2013, 12:07:59 PMUpon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.
I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.
1. A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
2. The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".
I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.
Here is a copy and paste of the relevant entry showing the meaning of "full-moon" in Lisan Al-Arab:
شهر - لسان العرب:
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال.Peace,
Ayman
Peace JTC,
Quote from: jtc on February 24, 2013, 10:38:51 PMInterestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 16:25. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.
Thank you for raising this issue. The word "hawl" indicates a "transformation". For example, it is used in relation to agriculture cycles as well as cycles of female camels bearing baby camels. Of course, with respect to the solar or luni-solar year, it would indicate the solar cycle. However, the context of "hawlayni kamilayni" is not about the solar cycle but is talking about babies. So the relevant cycle would be the cycle of the transformation of babies. In the case of babies this is the time it takes from conception to delivery or the gestation or pregnancy period (P). According to the great reading, pregnancy (P) + weaning (W) is 30 full-moons:
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا
....his carrying and weaning thirty full-moons. P + W = 30 Shahr
We also know that weaning is the period of two "hawl". If we take ?hawl? to mean a solar cycle or 12 solar or lunar months or whatever, then we would get
P = 30-24= 6
This is impossible since it is too little for the average normal gestation period for human babies. So in the context of human babies ?hawl? can only mean the cycle of the transformation of human babies, which is 10 full-moons.
The period delimited by 10 full-moons is approximately 29.5x9 which is approximately 266 days. Interestingly, according to modern science the average embryonic age is 38 weeks or 266 days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy#Duration
When we solve the equation P+W=30 correctly we get the same answer as modern science:
P + W = 30 Full-Moons
W = 2P
Therefore:
P + 2P = 30 Full-Moons
3P = 30 Full-Moons
P = 10 Full-Moons = 29.5x9 = 265.5 days
So here we have again the word ?COMPLETE cycle/transformation? or "hawlayni kamilayni" being used in relation to each ?hawl? being TEN full-moons.
There is another passage that talks about 2 years and it says the following:
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ وَهْنًا عَلَى وَهْنٍ وَفِصَالُهُ فِي عَامَيْنِ أَنِ اشْكُرْ لِي وَلِوَالِدَيْكَ إِلَيَّ الْمَصِيرُ
...and his weaning within two years...The term "fi" indicates "within". So the weaning (W) is "within" 2 years so this means less than 2 calendar years.
W < 2 years
W = 2 Pregnancy periods = 20 Full-Moons < 2 years
All of the above statements are in line and do not contradict reality only if a ?
COMPLETE hawl? means the human gestation period of
TEN full-moons.
Also, this further confirms that ?shahr? must be the event of the full-moon and NOT a 30 day period since 10x30=300 days, which is too long for the average normal human pregnancy.
I hope this helps clarify the issue. Please let me know what you think.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman.
Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.
Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 2:33 (not 16:25 as I mentioned by mistake): I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.
I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 17:36?
I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.
This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.
I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.
God bless.
James
Quote from: jtc on February 27, 2013, 11:12:45 PM
Peace Ayman.
Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.
Here is the translation:
Shahr: The moon and it was called such due to it being obvious/famous and apparent and it is said "when it is apparent and nearly full".
Quote
Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 2:33 (not 16:25 as I mentioned by mistake): I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.
I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 17:36?
I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.
This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.
I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.
God bless.
James
I don't believe it should be easy given the emphasis and close relation between knowing the timing and being guided by the great reading as indicated in 2:185.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace, Ayman..
I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".
Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree
There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?
The Jews have their own solution: Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.
But I keep asking myself: Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?
Looking forward to you imput on this issue.
@jtc
Concerning Hajj, I believe the most logical explanation is that the 4 Restircted Months are the Hajj months. It cannot be any other way. Allah ordained a period of 4 months wherein we have to abstain from hunting game (wild animals). To make up for this restriction, Allah gave us the livestock (namely: cows, camels, sheep and goats) as special creatures totally subserviant to us, and we can slaughter them during those 4 months (instead of hunting). The ancient Arabs knew this, and they observed the restirction. The Hajj serves the following functions:
1- Eat the meat of the livestock that is offered, and feed the poor.
2- Discuss the problems that affect society in the presence of the elected leaders of the state.
3- Trade.
4- Remember the place of the first ever Bayt, which I am 100% confident is in the area where human civilization began, and where the First or Orginial Urban Settlement was established.
5- Give charity to the needy
What is going on in the so-called city of Makkah today is a farce, and a mockery of the real Hajj, and has nothing to do with the Deen whatsoever. It's all a bunch of pagan rituals.
Regards.
Peace Ayman.
So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".
So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.
I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".
Quote from: jtc on February 27, 2013, 11:12:45 PM
Peace Ayman.
Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.
Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 2:33 (not 16:25 as I mentioned by mistake): I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.
I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 17:36?
I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.
This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.
I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.
God bless.
James
I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...
Quote from: Pazuzu on March 04, 2013, 02:26:23 PM
Peace, Ayman..
I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".
Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree
There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?
Salaam
please see here: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0
i disagree.
shahr=full moon : ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.
according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.
Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.
For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.
Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.
we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .
Quran says that nassiya (practiced by jews) is the false method (9-37).
it tells also that, some years, nassiya have the good counting.
that is an important indication. Jews are not always wrong.
So full moons have to be counted to 1 to 12 and the first shahr is the first after autum equinox.
Now, it is interesting to note that first full moon after autum equinox is always the day of jewish succot feast (even with their nassiya).
Succot is our first shahr haram. It is the one where saoum should occur.
from 19-26, saoum is spiritual retreat where we should not speak to humans.
phonetically, succot in arabic means silence.
for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah
the fourth one is the more complicated since jews lost it.
We have to find who is the nassara
it is, i think near the day where the zoroaster mithra was born.
Happy christmas dear brother pazuzu (even if jesus is a false prophet).
if i am wrong, please note that i have many coincidences and it is quran who astrayed me. ???
Peace
Peace be with you.
What time of year should hunting restrictions start?
For mmm and jtc:
The Lord and Sovereign has informed us that the
Qur'an is incorruptible as well as safeguarded:
6:115 The Word of your Lord is perfected in truth and justice. None can change His words. He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
6:34 Other messengers have been denied before you, and they bore their rejection and persecution steadfastly, until Our help came to them. There is no one who can change the words of God. You have already received some account of those messengers.
15:9 It is We who have sent down the Reminder and We will, most surely, safeguard it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are told that the book is easy to understand, with it's diversity of meanings derived or obtained by the basic root word. It should be obvious that the restraint/authority/judgement/wisdom/ الْحِكْمَةَ is there, it all depends on who is searching for it, or who is just following blindly.
2:269 He grants wisdom to whom He will; and whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted abundant wealth. Yet none bear this in mind except those endowed with understanding.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The truth is there for all to see, if you look about.
[The Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
[The Quran 6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[The Quran 12:111] In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message.
[16:78] God brought you out of your mothers' bellies knowing nothing, and He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains, that you may be appreciative.
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
[50:37] There is truly a reminder in this for whoever has a heart, whoever listens attentively.
[54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[39:28] An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous. :offtopic: :yay:
Peace Scrappy-doo.
I'm not sure I follow the logic is saying that "It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message." and then post a verse about the Qur'an being an 'Arabic book.
The fact of the matter is, those whose mother tongue is not the same language as this book are required to seek out a translation that they "like" or "understand", or study 'Arabic enough to basically make their own translation. This leave a lot of room for misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and making things up as we go along, all the time assuming that the book is from the Lord.
How can someone believe a book is from God, if they can't even understand it's language?
Also, just because the book says it is from God, does that make it so?
Peace jtc.
The verses are there. They tell us that with a submissive heart and a sincere endeavour to better understand Allah's directives by using the faculties He endowed us with, we will come upon the truth.
Perhaps it would be better to start another Topic on this. :peace:
Peace Scrappy-doo.
I have started a few topics on this actually. It just is a topic that I feel applies to all of these threads, but I guess it is better to limit this to a discussion for those who are convinced of the Qur'an being the word of God.
I am still interested in what people think about the fasting period though. Right now I can see fasting mentioned as "a few days" during the "new/full moon". I am totally not getting the "complete the count" as being "fast ten days", but based on the root of shahr "full moon" seems to make more sense, even though the dictionaries seem to point to is being "new" or "being near full". The phrase "fast it" seems to be more accurate than "fast during it", in terms of translation.
I know this has been debated so many times, but I was wondering for some new thoughts or clarifications.
Peace brother Pazuzu,
Quote from: Pazuzu on March 04, 2013, 02:26:23 PMRamadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree
Some slight clarifications that may help answer your remaining questions.
shahr ramadan/scorching full-moon is the same time as laylat al-qadr/night of measure (of the moon).
As you stated, shahr ramadan is the scorching full-moon. It is the first full-moon after the summer solstice which signals the hot time of the year and follows a low path accross the horizon, which gives it a reddish color.
Laylat al-qadr is the night of measure. The question is what is it a measure of? The ONLY other time in the great reading the term "qadr"/measure is used in relation to timing is in the following passage (can't remember the exact number):
And the moon we have measured it (qadarnahu) in descending stages (manazil) until it became like an old sheath.Clearly the term "laylat al-qadr" has to do with this process. So the night of measure is the night when the measurement of the moon in descending stages begins. Since the moon shape can only begin to descend in stages from the full-moon then this is the night of the full-moon. In other words, it is the night of "shahr ramadan".
Quote from: Pazuzu on March 04, 2013, 02:26:23 PMThere remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?
The Jews have their own solution: Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.
But I keep asking myself: Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?
Looking forward to you imput on this issue.
This one is actually very simple. We are clearly told to
count ONLY 12 full-moons in a year. The year is the time between solstices, specifically the mark we are given is the summer solstice. So we need to count 12 full-moons between summer solstices. In the year where we get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, we don't count this 13th full-moon and skip it. This will automatically and effortlessly adjust the lunar cycle to be aligned with the seasons. There is no simpler or clearer way. It is an amazingly perfect and clear system and its perfection is in its super simplicity.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace brother JTC,
Quote from: jtc on March 05, 2013, 12:08:30 AMSo the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".
So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.
Any full-moon that you see is actually 99.9% full. The actual 100% full-moon only lasts an instant.
No Arabic dictionary says that "shahr" means "new moon". So I am not sure where you got "new moon" from.
I would suggest looking at ALL the entries under shahr to see if the etymology of the word points to something full and round and apparent or something dim and cannot be seen by anyone except a lucky few.
Quote from: jtc on March 05, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".
The book is clear in that the present timing of the sectarian so-called Ramadan clearly contradicts the book. We can all at least agree on that. Why do you think this is the case? Had the great reading been manmade then wouldn't it have been a lot easier for those who made it to insert their Umar invented false timing into it? Sometimes we know truth by contrasting with falsehood. So in the big picture, the god allowing falsehood to spread ultimately serves a good purpose.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother mmmm,
Quote from: mmmm on March 05, 2013, 05:24:40 AM
I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...
We are actually very fortunate to be living in this day and age of the information revolution. Studying the great reading is now easier than ever. In fact, when it comes to the topic of the timing and "ramadan" you are very fortunate to be browsing this topic, which is probably the most thorough and complete thread on this subject in the entire UNIVERSE :).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Noshirk,
Quote from: noshirk on March 08, 2013, 03:16:00 PMshahr=full moon : ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.
The term "qadr" is never used in the great reading in reference to the sun or the equinoxes. When it comes to timing, it is ONLY used in relation to the moon and specifically the ful-moon as I mentioned above to Pazuzu.
And the moon we have measured it (qadarnahu) in descending stages (manazil) until it became like an old sheath.Quote from: noshirk on March 08, 2013, 03:16:00 PM
according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.
Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.
For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.
Not sure where you got the year 617 from. Also, I think that contextually the events in 30:1-2 are reversed due to vocalization distortion. Why would the believers by happy with the victory of the trinitarian Romans??
Also, according to the Romans manuscripta the Arabs started raiding them in 620-621CE. At this time, according to traditions, the prophet didn't even immigrate yet!
Quote from: noshirk on March 08, 2013, 03:16:00 PM
Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.
we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .
The god clearly tells us in 17:12 that we know the year by the day and night. The only way that you can know the year by simply the night and day is that the year is the interval between either longest day/shortest night or shortest day/longest night. These are the solstices. On the other hand, with the equinoxes you would only get half a year.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam brother ayman
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 11:33:08 AM
Peace Noshirk,
The term "qadr" is never used in the great reading in reference to the sun or the equinoxes. When it comes to timing, it is ONLY used in relation to the moon and specifically the ful-moon as I mentioned above to Pazuzu.
73:20 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUQADDIROU) the night and the day. ....
The day where night and day are of equal measure is an equinoxe day.
here are the verses where qadr is used:15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 11:33:08 AM
Not sure where you got the year 617 from. Also, I think that contextually the events in 30:1-2 are reversed due to vocalization distortion.
see here from all links: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 11:33:08 AM
Why would the believers by happy with the victory of the trinitarian Romans??
see here :http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0
Islam raised in arab peninsula between roman empire at left and persian empire at right
islam beneficiate from the war between roman an persian empire. When the front line between moved to irak, arabian peninsula was freed for first muslim. It is in this front line from where Khalid Ibn Walid began his conquest from 632.
Hope you don't believe that jesus is issa. If you don't accept that, perhaps you can accept that nassara are persians and that for quran, romans as all actuals christians are simply jewish sect.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 11:33:08 AM
Also, according to the Romans manuscripta the Arabs started raiding them in 620-621CE. At this time, according to traditions, the prophet didn't even immigrate yet!
according to traditions is not a serious argument dear ayman.
Hijra occured before quran revelation since quran speaks about it.
Dear ayman,
i can add something more amazing.
read carefully verses 33-50 to 33-52
After 617; Muhammad took no more wifes. Tradition written by persians is , of course, not agree.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 11:33:08 AM
The god clearly tells us in 17:12 that we know the year by the day and night. The only way that you can know the year by simply the night and day is that the year is the interval between either longest day/shortest night or shortest day/longest night. These are the solstices. On the other hand, with the equinoxes you would only get half a year.
Peace,
Ayman
you need a precise clock for that.
Now look at the polar star and open your arms and turn your head to the east. When sun rise exactly at the east showed by your arm, it is the equinox day.
(http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/DZsun.jpg)
sample 1 of equinox sunrise: http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/dzibilchaltun.html
(http://cambodianpridetours.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/the-sun-rise-on-top-of-the-middle-tower-at-angkor-temple.jpg?w=470)
sample 2 of equinox sunrise: http://cambodianpridetours.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/equinox-over-angkor-wat/
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/192x/28/9d/1b/289d1b41e1663743e50111c5b8c7c5b9.jpg)
sample 3 og equinix sunrise. Cannot be more easy to determine. Only three stones oriented to north needed.
Hope you noticed that jewish succot feast is in the full moon after autum equinox.
Look also to persian calendar.
Peace
Peace brother noshirk,
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PM73:20 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUQADDIROU) the night and the day. ....
The day where night and day are of equal measure is an equinoxe day.
here are the verses where qadr is used:15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23
In none of those verses qadr means "equal". It means measure. The terms measure and equal are not the same. Even 73:20 confirms this, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3 of night has no equality relation with day.
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PMsee here from all links: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0
see here :http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0
Islam raised in arab peninsula between roman empire at left and persian empire at right
islam beneficiate from the war between roman an persian empire. When the front line between moved to irak, arabian peninsula was freed for first muslim. It is in this front line from where Khalid Ibn Walid began his conquest from 632.
Hope you don't believe that jesus is issa. If you don't accept that, perhaps you can accept that nassara are persians and that for quran, romans as all actuals christians are simply jewish sect.
Nasara are not Trinitarians. The great reading mentions that Trinitarians are rejecters while in 9:30 Nasara claim that Jesus is the (human) son of the god (he be exalted). This fits the Nestorians , who by the way were in Norhtern Arabia.
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PM
according to traditions is not a serious argument dear ayman.
Hijra occured before quran revelation since quran speaks about it.
It only shows that the traditional dates are messed up and pushed forward since traditional hearsay history says that the Arabs started invading the Romans in 632 but the Roman manuscripts say 621. Also, Abraha invasion of Arabia happened in 552 according to his inscrption but the Arab hearsay from 200 years later say it was 575. So we have here a pattern of Arab history being pushed forward. It seems like the Quran is older than we think (10-25 years older) and thus revelation started sooner.
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PM
Dear ayman,
i can add something more amazing.
read carefully verses 33-50 to 33-52
After 617; Muhammad took no more wifes. Tradition written by persians is , of course, not agree.
We don't know what year Mohamed was born or when he died or when he received revelation. Certainly, the year when he was marrying or not marrying is far less certain than those bigger events.
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PM
you need a precise clock for that.
No, you only need to observe the shadow. This is why all ancient people easily knew the solstices.
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PMNow look at the polar star and open your arms and turn your head to the east. When sun rise exactly at the east showed by your arm, it is the equinox day.
The polar star has nothing to do with day or night or what you said above about the measure being equal. Also, no matter what, there will ALWAYS be 2 equinoxes that are exactlt alike in terms od day and night and thus you can only count half a year.
Quote from: noshirk on March 11, 2013, 03:08:41 PMHope you noticed that jewish succot feast is in the full moon after autum equinox.
Look also to persian calendar.
Please see the full name of Succot. It is called Hagg Succot. So this is the timing for "hagg"/feast not the fast. The Hagg Succot perfectly coincides with the fourth inviolable full-moon, which is the last full-moon for the "hagg"/feast.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Brother Ayman
i learned very much while reading your articles. God Bless you.
However, i am not at at all agree with your understanding of What is laylatou el qadr and ramadhan.
You have to find a solstice + full moon night. try this: http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
Peace brother noshirk,
In none of those verses qadr means "equal". It means measure. The terms measure and equal are not the same. Even 73:20 confirms this, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3 of night has no equality relation with day.
please take note i understand arabic.
i never said that qadr means equal. Just that equinox is day where length of night and length of day are of equal measure.
Now, equinox day has many properties like , for example, to be equinox day in both hemispheres in the same time.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
Nasara are not Trinitarians. The great reading mentions that Trinitarians are rejecters while in 9:30 Nasara claim that Jesus is the (human) son of the god (he be exalted). This fits the Nestorians , who by the way were in Norhtern Arabia.
Where is the guy called Jesus in Quran ?
Nassara is pointing to Issa and Issa is not Jesus. Nassara cannot be Nestorians or any christians sect related to the called Jesus.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
It only shows that the traditional dates are messed up and pushed forward since traditional hearsay history says that the Arabs started invading the Romans in 632 but the Roman manuscripts say 621. Also, Abraha invasion of Arabia happened in 552 according to his inscrption but the Arab hearsay from 200 years later say it was 575. So we have here a pattern of Arab history being pushed forward. It seems like the Quran is older than we think (10-25 years older) and thus revelation started sooner.
We don't know what year Mohamed was born or when he died or when he received revelation. Certainly, the year when he was marrying or not marrying is far less certain than those bigger events.
First, we cannot use history of Abraha for any Muhammad event datation. it is not even proven that Abraha is referred indirectly in Quran. Even if it was so, All we know is that it happened before Quran was revealed. All links to Muhammas events of life are made throught hearsays.
Now, 617 datation is base on two incontestable facts:
- 30-1 and 30-2 and change of curse of victories from persians victories to romans victories during their war from 602 to 628. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_War_of_602-628). That is an international fact.
- The huge concidence equinox + Full moon + Moon at perigee the 20 september 617.
On the other hands, in don't know from where you get roman manuscripts speaking about arab invasion near 621. But 621 is always 4 years after 617 and then is in a period where Hijra has already occured according to 617 theory. So Muslim with Muhammad at their head were there at 621.
(Please note that with quran you cannot proove that Muhammad make war to quraich people. Idolaters can be what you want, even romans or nassara 3-80).
We know also from history that a muslim army arrived in Jesuralem around 636 and 638. That is an international fact.
There is a very important decision you have to take, brother ayman. Was Quran revealed one shot or gradually ?
I decided for my self that it was one shot. In a night where laylatou el qadr was also a full moon night.
Muhammad received Quran in one night and preached with it after that without using his own hadiths. He just teached Quran.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
No, you only need to observe the shadow. This is why all ancient people easily knew the solstices.
The polar star has nothing to do with day or night or what you said above about the measure being equal
Here we are in the science field. Equinox day is at least as easy to determine as solistice.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
. Also, no matter what, there will ALWAYS be 2 equinoxes that are exactlt alike in terms od day and night and thus you can only count half a year.
this is not an argument.
people knew that and can use either automn or spring equinox as reference. That was what persians (nassara for me) did and also what jews did.
Now, your solstice datation is based on Ramadhan word meaning.
Me too:
والرَّمَضِيُّ من السحاب والمطر: ما كان في آخر القَيْظِ وأَوّلِ الخَرِيف، فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها.
والرَّمَضُ المطر يأْتي قُبُلَ الخريف فيجد الأَرض حارّة محترقة
That's autum and not summer.
Quote from: ayman on March 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
Please see the full name of Succot. It is called Hagg Succot. So this is the timing for "hagg"/feast not the fast. The Hagg Succot perfectly coincides with the fourth inviolable full-moon, which is the last full-moon for the "hagg"/feast.
it is all conjectures.
You cannot proove that period of saoum is not also a period of Hajj (please note that who make only Omra during Hajj have to make saoum).
You cannot proove that Ashor Haram are consecutives.
You cannot prove that saoum is fasting from something else than speaking to humans (please note i don't know what you mean by word fast).
You don't know how many Hajj a muslim should do in his life (the only indication you have is comaraison between torah and quran relative to Moses period of working with his stepfather).
Succot can be either period of Hajj and Saoum. Who make Hajj has not to do saoum.
Please note that is seems that succot is linked to agriculture and first rains (i am not sure. Need help). Exact meaning of ramadhiyou.
People of Quran, People of Torah (Jews and christians), People of Injeel (zoroasters and derivate hindouism) should have similarites.
Consecutive ashor haram is a kind of rejection of old scriptures and has no solid quranic basis.
Peace
Peace bro noshirk,
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMSalaam Brother Ayman
i learned very much while reading your articles. God Bless you.
However, i am not at at all agree with your understanding of What is laylatou el qadr and ramadhan.
You have to find a solstice + full moon night. try this: http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
Thank you and god bless you for trying to improve our understanding. However, this is a misunderstanding of my article on your part. I am talking about the full-moon AFTER the summer solstice. Of course, this certainly happens every year.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMplease take note i understand arabic.
Then I would suggest that you read the Arabic version here:
www.quran4peace.org
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMi never said that qadr means equal. Just that equinox is day where length of night and length of day are of equal measure.
Now, equinox day has many properties like , for example, to be equinox day in both hemispheres in the same time.
Since you know that measure doesn't mean equal then the equinox (equal) theory is not even remotely supported by the great reading.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMWhere is the guy called Jesus in Quran ?
Nassara is pointing to Issa and Issa is not Jesus. Nassara cannot be Nestorians or any christians sect related to the called Jesus.
This is a different subject.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMFirst, we cannot use history of Abraha for any Muhammad event datation. it is not even proven that Abraha is referred indirectly in Quran. Even if it was so, All we know is that it happened before Quran was revealed. All links to Muhammas events of life are made throught hearsays.
Now, 617 datation is base on two incontestable facts:
- 30-1 and 30-2 and change of curse of victories from persians victories to romans victories during their war from 602 to 628. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_War_of_602-628). That is an international fact.
- The huge concidence equinox + Full moon + Moon at perigee the 20 september 617.
On the other hands, in don't know from where you get roman manuscripts speaking about arab invasion near 621. But 621 is always 4 years after 617 and then is in a period where Hijra has already occured according to 617 theory. So Muslim with Muhammad at their head were there at 621.
(Please note that with quran you cannot proove that Muhammad make war to quraich people. Idolaters can be what you want, even romans or nassara 3-80).
We know also from history that a muslim army arrived in Jesuralem around 636 and 638. That is an international fact.
Abraha has nothing to do with the Quran and neither is your 617 dating. The point I was trying to make is that the whole Islamic chronology is messed up. So we can't base anything on it.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMThere is a very important decision you have to take, brother ayman. Was Quran revealed one shot or gradually ?
I decided for my self that it was one shot. In a night where laylatou el qadr was also a full moon night.
Muhammad received Quran in one night and preached with it after that without using his own hadiths. He just teached Quran.
It was done in 2 stages: INZAL then TANZIL. INZAL was one time a year while TANZIL was done gradually on the heart of the prophet.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMHere we are in the science field. Equinox day is at least as easy to determine as solistice.
It is not about which is easier to determine. It is about which one can be used to count years using the day and night as per the quran. It is impossible to use the equinox as a marker to count years since there are 2 equinoxes where the day and night are exactly the same and so this would give you half a year and not a year.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMthis is not an argument.
people knew that and can use either automn or spring equinox as reference. That was what persians (nassara for me) did and also what jews did.
The quran ONLY gives ?day and night? as the way of counting the years. It doesn?t give any other factor. For example, the Jews use the harvest of barley to differentiate and select the autumn equinox as a reference. Again, it is an indisputable fact that the SINGLE way you can use ONLY the day and night to count the number of years (not half years) is if you use one of the solstices.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMNow, your solstice datation is based on Ramadhan word meaning.
Me too:
والرَّمَضِيُّ من السحاب والمطر: ما كان في آخر القَيْظِ وأَوّلِ الخَرِيف، فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها.
والرَّمَضُ المطر يأْتي قُبُلَ الخريف فيجد الأَرض حارّة محترقة
That's autum and not summer.
This is not the meaning of ?ramadan?, which simply means hot/scorching. What you are presenting is the meaning when associated to clouds and rain. 2:185 is not talking about ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain?, it is talking about the hot/scorching full-moon. This clearly best fits the first full-moon AFTER the summer solstice.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMit is all conjectures.
You cannot proove that period of saoum is not also a period of Hajj (please note that who make only Omra during Hajj have to make saoum).
You cannot proove that Ashor Haram are consecutives.
You cannot prove that saoum is fasting from something else than speaking to humans (please note i don't know what you mean by word fast).
You don't know how many Hajj a muslim should do in his life (the only indication you have is comaraison between torah and quran relative to Moses period of working with his stepfather).
Succot can be either period of Hajj and Saoum. Who make Hajj has not to do saoum.
Please note that is seems that succot is linked to agriculture and first rains (i am not sure. Need help). Exact meaning of ramadhiyou.
Exactly, Hagg Succot is a harvest feast just like the hagg talked about in the great reading. It is not a fast.
Please see 9:5, which clearly proves that the inviolable full-moons are consecutive.
Quote from: noshirk on March 12, 2013, 09:15:14 AMPeople of Quran, People of Torah (Jews and christians), People of Injeel (zoroasters and derivate hindouism) should have similarites.
Consecutive ashor haram is a kind of rejection of old scriptures and has no solid quranic basis.
In most places in the world and according to science, hunting is best restricted in the summer and resumes in the fall. So this further confirms the marker being the first full-moon after the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Brother Ayman
Before All, i want to tell that your articles changed completely my way of thinking and specially the "What's in the name" one.
I accepted many of your understandings (Jinns/fantasy/imagination, Hajj/feast, salat/connection, Hijri calender rejection and so on). But the most important concept i found is the Tartil/arrangment concept who is for me the key of understanding Quran.
I will be always grateful to you.
However, don't take it bad, you are not my Rabb and we are both students of the great teacher (rabb). That mean that i have the pretention to claim that i can sometimes not be agree with some of your understandings without misunderstanding you.
For example, i will respond here to you last other post. Your interpretation of Expression "Batni Mekkati" holded, for a while, for me, the status of best available undertsanding.
But now, i think i found a better one. Batni is related to eating and mean venter. Batni consume food from God, extract energy and transform the remaining in something Bad. Batni is quite the opposite of the feminine womb/rahm who transform the food of god in a living thing.
When you see meaning of word Makka you can find something like this:
مكك (لسان العرب)
مَكَّ الفصيلُ ما في ضرع أُمه يَمُكُّه مَكّاً وامْتَكَّه وتَمَكَّكَه ومَكْمَكَهُ: امْتَصَّ جميع ما فيه وشربه كله، وكذلك الضبي إذا استقصى ثدي أُمه بالمص.
that meaning of Mecca is clear continuation of eating concept. Mecca is aspiring/sucking something until it ends.
Expression of "Batni Mekkata" can then be simply understood as Hell. It aspires Mixers of Quran in an "eating" of words of God that produces nothing.
With that understanding, 48-24 is not speaking at all about a battle. it is speaking about separation of destiny of Mo'omini returning to the orginal Rahm (rahman and rahim) from mushrikins aspired in "simply" destroyning venter.
it is interesting to read the entire sourate 48 with the idea that Fath mean heart conquest and not mecca conquest.
Quote from: ayman on March 23, 2013, 12:20:57 AM
Thank you and god bless you for trying to improve our understanding. However, this is a misunderstanding of my article on your part. I am talking about the full-moon AFTER the summer solstice. Of course, this certainly happens every year.
i understood that very well and accepted it partially. i think now that shahr ramadhan is the full moon "AFTER" the autumn equinox.
But the night where quran was revealed, it was both Full moon and Laylatou el Qadr. That is clear in quran and is, for me, an astronomical indication from our Teacher.
I found a perfectly fitting full moon/autum equinox in wich there is in addition the bonus of the supermoon night. The night of full moon the month after, there was a lunar eclipse (inchiqaq qamar ???).
Is that all coincidences or just confirmation of understanding that Laylatou el Qadr is equinox ?
Quote from: ayman on March 23, 2013, 12:20:57 AM
It was done in 2 stages: INZAL then TANZIL. INZAL was one time a year while TANZIL was done gradually on the heart of the prophet.
please can you give me more hojjaj about this point ?.
Quote from: ayman on March 23, 2013, 12:20:57 AM
Please see 9:5, which clearly proves that the inviolable full-moons are consecutive.
Absolutely not convincing.
i accepted your concept of Zakat and Shahr. But it seems that concept of consecutive ashor is something that is not zakkified yet from your old beliefs that shahr means month. What have we to do between the 4 consecutive full moons ?
Let me now add some new arguments on the theory that period of Hajj is SUCCOT feast.
here is the last post of brother Hawk99
Quote from: hawk99 on March 22, 2013, 05:11:40 PM
003.096
YUSUFALI: The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and
of guidance for all kinds of beings:
The Valley of Baca " Baca, Correctly spelled from the Hebrew as "Baka" or " The Valley of Baka "
Now according to your commenters The Valley of Baka is located in Palestine, but Psalms 84 gives
specific ID on the geographical location.
> Psalm 84
> 1 How amiable are thy tabernacles, O LORD of hosts!
> 2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth
out for the living God.
> 3 Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay
her young, even thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God.
> 4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.(S-L-H)
> 5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
> 6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (Zamzam)
> 7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
> 8 O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah.
> 9 Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed.
> 10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house
of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.
> 11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will
he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
> 12 O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.
BAKA
1) This Place is a Valley
2) In this Valley there is a blessed Well
3) To this Valley pilgrims make their journey
4) There is a Sacred House of Worship in this Valley of Baka
5) This Place of worship where the sacred house is at there are COURT YARDS
6) There are alters
7) Sparows and Swallows Lodge at this location and bare their young
There is no place in Palestine that fits this discription.
ONE GOD
really interesting.
Book of pslams seems to be what remains from not scelled (makhtoum) "ZABUR OF DAOUD" our teacher mentionned in Quran.
BACCA in Quran is clearly related to Hajj (by Abraham).
In the "Zabur of Daoud ?", we found it related to feast of tabernacles(other name of Succot feast) in a "raining" context.
In addition, like for word Mecca, it is possible that Bacca is not a name of place.
i saw that many traductions of psalm 84 traduce word Bacca in valley of "crying". But Boukaa is not the only understanding of Bakka.
it is very funny to notice this linguistic explanation of why Mecca is Bacca:
وقيل: لأن الناس يتباكّون فيها من كل وجه أي يتزاحمون(of course, i don't believe that temple of goddess of fertility is Masjid haram).
So BACCA can simply means a crowded place and Bacca of Muhammad can be not the Bacca of Abraham.
In fact, my actual understanding is that Bacca is quite the same meaning as Ommu el Qura.
28:59 And your Lord was not to destroy the towns until He sends a messenger to their capital (in the mother OF THAT qura), to recite Our revelations to them. And We do not destroy the towns unless its people are wicked.
So, building a Masjid Haram in a mother of Qura of a region seems to be a "to do task" from some Messengers.
Of course, a Masjid Haram is more "practical" in a crowded place. Only "fools" can believe that a teacher ask to build university in a desert behind a Hijaz.
Please brother ayman, dont take my posts as polemical ones. If other Arbabs were allowed in islam, i would have choosen you and brother Pazuzu as teachers.
But both of you are doing mistakes as certainly i do.
Peace
Peace be with you.
Could someone please let me know when Ramadhan will start this year.
Thanks
:sun:
Peace be upon you.
According to brother Ayman's theory the period of fasting starts right after the first full-moon after the summer solstice (shahr ramadan). In Europe this will be the case on June, the 23rd.
Thank you. :bravo:
Peace be with you all.
It has been suggested to me that verse 2:185's "you" is not about anyone outside of 2:185's "people," which is based on 2:185's "among you," as if the verse is for those present in the month that the qur'an was revealed.
Any thoughts most welcome.
:jedi:
Salam, noshirk
QuoteSo BACCA can simply means a crowded place and Bacca of Muhammad can be not the Bacca of Abraham.
How did you come to this conclusion?
Doesn't the Quran say that The Sanctuary (al-Bayt) that was cleansed by Abraham is the one at Bakkah? So if Bakkah simply means "crowded place", the passage would be rendered as such:
{The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one at a crowded place, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds * In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And Allah is owed from the people to make hajj to the Sanctuary, whoever has the means to do so. And whoever rejects, then Allah has no need of the worlds}...[3:96,97]Does this seem logical to you? Why would Allah instruct people to make Hajj to a place that He specifically designated as the first ever of its kind that was established for humanity, and clearly refer to it as being the place that Abraham was lead to, only to have such a vague description of its location?
The term "Al-Bayt" that appears numerous times in the Quran refers to THE Sanctuary (the first one ever of its kind established for the people), which happens to be in Arabia.
{And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating}...[2:215]{And as Abraham removed the qawa'id from the Sanctuary , along with Ismael: "Our Rabb, accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable}...[2:217]{O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the forbidden month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Forbidden Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing...}...[5:2]{Allah has made the kaa'bah to be the Forbidden Sanctuary; to enforce for the people, and for the forbidden month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you may know that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is in earth, and that Allah is aware of all things}...[5:97]{Our Rabb, I have resided some from my progeny in a valley with no vegetation, near your Forbidden Sanctuary. My Rabb, so that they may hold the salat. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks}...[14:37]Which Sanctuary (Bayt) is mentioned in all of the above? Is this not the one to whose viccinity Abraham had migrated?
When the mysterious guests of Abraham greeted him and his wife (the future mother of ISHAQ), what did they say to him? Here's the answer:
{They said: "Do you wonder at the decree of Allah? The mercy of Allah and blessings are upon you, O people of the Sanctuary. He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.}...[11:73]When the Quran gave Muhammad a series of instructions concerning the behavior of his wives, and told him to relate these instructions to them, what did the Quran call Muhammad and his wives?
Here follows is the answer:
{You shall be content in your homes, and do not show off like in the old days of ignorance. You shall uphold the salat, and contribute towards purification, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah wishes to remove any affliction from you, O people of the Sanctuary, and to purify you completely}...[33:33]I am sorry...but I fail to see how the Bayt of Abraham is not the same Bayt that Muhammad later occupied. I fail to see how the "crowded place" to which Abraham called to all people for the hajj is different than the "crowded place" where Muhammad went to for his hajj.
The reason is because you insist on the hypothesis that the Quran does not mention proper names of places. As if mentioning proper names is somehow detrimental to the message?
There could be many such sanctuaries in the world. The CHerookee "Indians" of America might have had one such place somwehere, before white man arrived and colonized their land. The Incas of Peru might have had a Sanctuary somewhere up in the Andes Mountains. The people of Tibet might have observed rituals in a sacred grove or valley in the Himalayas, for all we know.
And then the Quran tells us that the FIRST Sanctuary ever established for mankind is the one in a "crowded place"? Does this seem to you like it does justice to the place?
Search your soul before you answer,
May Allah guide us all.
P.S: I would like your opinion on the term
"ahillah" which appears in
[2:189] as timing mechanisms for the hajj, and how it fits with your Autumn Equinox ramadan theory.
Also, I hope brother Ayman can give us his feedback on this issue.
Peace...
Salam
I just wanted to better grasp the understanding of Ramadan however other things came about. Some clarity would be beneficial.
I had to stop and re-read the Ramadan theory as I was stuck on the notion of 10 days but I can see how 10 is concluded based on understandings of ma3dodat.
But then the issue of alash-har alharam comes about. The sacred months/full moons. We know 4 are restricted based on 9:36 So we go by what we know, assuming the first full moon is after the summer solstice when Ramadan starts. Why wouldn?t fasting finish when the next full moon appears?
Is it because of the issue about the hilal? 2:189 talks about hilal as markers for people and for hajj
If a new moon to a hilal is always up to 10 days then I guess that can make sense. Is this easy to calculate??
So particular events are marked by the hilal (assuming 10days, if we take hilal to mean an end marker) so hajj is 10 days during the 4 sacred months/full moons after the summer Solstice? or maybe it's possible that Hajj starts from the hilal and finishes at the new moon?
In the sacred months fighting isn?t allowed (unless you?re being attacked) 2:194
Hunting only seems to be specific to those during a state of pilgrimage 5:1, unless I've missed something?
Salam
Peace with you all :sun:
I was reading this topic for a while. It is very nice to see that many of memebers here discuss this important topic. There are many different understanding on the verses/words so actually my too- individual people, individual ways. Please feel free to give me a hunt )))
Here I want to point at one word in following verse:
2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
As far as I understand, and I red trough this topic, "shahr ramadan" has nothing to do, so some of members interprate like that, with so called Ramadan when is fasting time.
But, in this verse we have
1.shahr ramadan when the reading was descended
2. shahr as an object? that can be witnessed and those who do that, has to fast
That means shahr doesn't mean a month but full moon?
If this is true then
if there is only mentioned shahr- marked bold- then could it be to fast by witnessing the full moon?
That will be each month, rufly speaking, some 3 days, because after few days there is no more full moon.
In the translation of the verse above I can't identify "that" before al-shahr, or is "that" already in the expression "al-shahr" included ?
If so (with "that"), then it will be to fast exacly that month: shahr ramadan. Otherwise, each month by full moon ??
PS: Maybe was my question already stated, but I haven't noticed..
May God Mercifully guide us on the stright way.
Quote from: Pazuzu on April 23, 2013, 02:36:31 AM
Salam, noshirk
How did you come to this conclusion?
Doesn't the Quran say that The Sanctuary (al-Bayt) that was cleansed by Abraham is the one at Bakkah? So if Bakkah simply means "crowded place", the passage would be rendered as such:
{The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one at a crowded place, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds * In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And Allah is owed from the people to make hajj to the Sanctuary, whoever has the means to do so. And whoever rejects, then Allah has no need of the worlds}...[3:96,97]
Does this seem logical to you? Why would Allah instruct people to make Hajj to a place that He specifically designated as the first ever of its kind that was established for humanity, and clearly refer to it as being the place that Abraham was lead to, only to have such a vague description of its location?
The term "Al-Bayt" that appears numerous times in the Quran refers to THE Sanctuary (the first one ever of its kind established for the people), which happens to be in Arabia.
{And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating}...[2:215]
{And as Abraham removed the qawa'id from the Sanctuary , along with Ismael: "Our Rabb, accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable}...[2:217]
{O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the forbidden month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Forbidden Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing...}...[5:2]
{Allah has made the kaa'bah to be the Forbidden Sanctuary; to enforce for the people, and for the forbidden month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you may know that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is in earth, and that Allah is aware of all things}...[5:97]
{Our Rabb, I have resided some from my progeny in a valley with no vegetation, near your Forbidden Sanctuary. My Rabb, so that they may hold the salat. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks}...[14:37]
Which Sanctuary (Bayt) is mentioned in all of the above? Is this not the one to whose viccinity Abraham had migrated?
When the mysterious guests of Abraham greeted him and his wife (the future mother of ISHAQ), what did they say to him? Here's the answer:
{They said: "Do you wonder at the decree of Allah? The mercy of Allah and blessings are upon you, O people of the Sanctuary. He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.}...[11:73]
When the Quran gave Muhammad a series of instructions concerning the behavior of his wives, and told him to relate these instructions to them, what did the Quran call Muhammad and his wives?
Here follows is the answer:
{You shall be content in your homes, and do not show off like in the old days of ignorance. You shall uphold the salat, and contribute towards purification, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah wishes to remove any affliction from you, O people of the Sanctuary, and to purify you completely}...[33:33]
I am sorry...but I fail to see how the Bayt of Abraham is not the same Bayt that Muhammad later occupied. I fail to see how the "crowded place" to which Abraham called to all people for the hajj is different than the "crowded place" where Muhammad went to for his hajj.
The reason is because you insist on the hypothesis that the Quran does not mention proper names of places. As if mentioning proper names is somehow detrimental to the message?
There could be many such sanctuaries in the world. The CHerookee "Indians" of America might have had one such place somwehere, before white man arrived and colonized their land. The Incas of Peru might have had a Sanctuary somewhere up in the Andes Mountains. The people of Tibet might have observed rituals in a sacred grove or valley in the Himalayas, for all we know.
And then the Quran tells us that the FIRST Sanctuary ever established for mankind is the one in a "crowded place"? Does this seem to you like it does justice to the place?
Search your soul before you answer,
May Allah guide us all.
P.S: I would like your opinion on the term "ahillah" which appears in [2:189] as timing mechanisms for the hajj, and how it fits with your Autumn Equinox ramadan theory.
Also, I hope brother Ayman can give us his feedback on this issue.
Peace...
Salaam brother Pazuzu
بكّ (مقاييس اللغة)
الباء والكاف في المضاعف أصلٌ يجمع التزاحُمَ والمغالبة. قال الخليل: البَكّ دقُّ العُنق.
ويقال سمِّيت بكّة لأنّها كانت تَبُكُّ أعناق الجبابرة إذا أَلحَدْوا فيها بظُلْمٍٍ لم يُنْظَروا.
ويقال بل سُمّيتْ بكّةَ لأنّ النّاسَ بعضُهم يبكُّ بعضاً في الطَّواف، أي يدفع.
root of bacca mean rush/crush/jostle (sorry i selected from google traduction). I deduced that Bacca is a crowded place in the meaningthat there is naturally many people there.
To see if explanation of Bacca fit, whe have first to agree on aim of Hajj and meaning of Masjid.
if you Traduce Bayt by sanctuary, Haram by sacred, probably will find that Crowded place not fit.
I derived my understanding of Hajj and masjid from the great work of brother ayman.
Hajj is for me a feast where many people (not only believers since Quran use general word of Naass) are called to listen to words of God and debate.
Masjid is a word that derive from word sjd wich means for me listen + obey + agree
i don't accept understanding of sacred for word haram. haram is opposite of halal and means the forbidden.
For me, Masjid is a place where laws of God are explained. Laws don't express wishes and generally are expressed in a form of "don't do...".
Bayt means where someone lives.
بيت (مقاييس اللغة)
الباء والياء والتاء أصلٌ واحد، وهو المأْوَى والمآب ومَجْمَع الشّمْل. يقال بيتٌ وبُيوتٌ وأبياتٌ.
So bayt and masjid can means same thing. Bayt words points to the architectural aspect and Masjid to the function (like parliement).
(18-21 ???)
i can push further the reasoning. Kaaba is simply the tribune where the speaker stands in the auditorium (masjid) and where the had'y (gift of Allah=words of Allah) reashes it's destination (mind and spirit of believers).
Putting all together, if aim of hajj is to transmit and explain words of God even to non muslims, it is more likely to place masjid and bayt in a place where there is people.
A desertic region in the hijaz (barrier) is the worse place one can chose for this objective.
3:96 The
first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
Word first is a big problem in the "sanctuary sacred by allah himself" theory.
first means that there can be others and , probably, they are not even mentionned in quran.
is bayt "of muhammad" same as bayt of "Abraham" ?
i don't know. Perhaps the couple medina/median is the key for this question
you said:
QuoteThe reason is because you insist on the hypothesis that the Quran does not mention proper names of places. As if mentioning proper names is somehow detrimental to the message?"
i didn't said such a thing. i dont know what names are proper names of a place and what are not.
i just responded to bender post to say that it is not easy to demonstrate that a place that seems to be a proper name of place is a propoer name of place. So it is not impossible that there is no proper name of place in Quran.
QuoteP.S: I would like your opinion on the term "ahillah" which appears in [2:189] as timing mechanisms for the hajj, and how it fits with your Autumn Equinox ramadan theory.
Really, i don't know.
Before your question, i thought that Ahillah was phase of crescent moon.
Now that i focus on this point, a h l seems to be a root that is related to "people of" OR prepare for something (ahhala).
Of course, meaning of crescent moon exists and seems like if it comes from the meaning that moon is preparing to reappers.
Really i doubt now that there is moon in 2-189.
A traduction without moon of 2-189 can be like this:
يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الأهِلَّةِ قُلْ هِيَ مَوَاقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَالْحَجِّ وَلَيْسَ الْبِرُّ بِأَنْ تَأْتُوْاْ الْبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنِ اتَّقَى وَأْتُواْ الْبُيُوتَ مِنْ أَبْوَابِهَا وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ 2:189 They ask you regarding the "when to make the preparation of regroupement" , say: ?There are at specific timings for the people and the Hajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back (to go there for bad reasons like to eat and make feast), but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors (for deen reasons and get science of Words of God). And be aware of God that you may succeed.
i think (if a had good remembrance) that brother ayman used this verse to argue that, if we understand ahilla as crescent moon, that the starting of counting of a moon is the full moon (the main door) and not the crescent monn(back door).
But really, i am not sure.2-189 seems to be a "mutashabihat" ayat.
Peace
Peace Birdy.
Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 05:41:49 PM
2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
As far as I understand, and I red trough this topic, "shahr ramadan" has nothing to do, so some of members interprate like that, with so called Ramadan when is fasting time.
But, in this verse we have
1.shahr ramadan when the reading was descended
2. shahr as an object? that can be witnessed and those who do that, has to fast
That means shahr doesn't mean a month but full moon?
If this is true then
if there is only mentioned shahr- marked bold- then could it be to fast by witnessing the full moon?
That will be each month, rufly speaking, some 3 days, because after few days there is no more full moon.
[...]
PS: Maybe was my question already stated, but I haven't noticed..
The issue has been discussed here: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0 I don't know, whether it was also adressed within the "hot ramadan"-topic itself.
Moreover we had a discussion concerning the fast of 3 days every full-moon in our german forum. Have a look here:
http://forum.meine-islam-reform.de/index.php?topic=300.0
The idea about the 3-day-fast arose from this post onwards:
http://forum.meine-islam-reform.de/index.php?topic=300.msg6714#msg6714
Peace brother Timur,
Quote from: Timur on April 09, 2013, 11:52:47 AMAccording to brother Ayman's theory the period of fasting starts right after the first full-moon after the summer solstice (shahr ramadan). In Europe this will be the case on June, the 23rd.
You are correct. In the northern hemisphere, the full-moon after the solstice will be June 23rd.
I would like to request a big favor from everyone: In most places, the full-moon will appear shortly after the sun sets and remember the following passages as you witness it:
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk. After sunset when the sky is glowing red
84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds. and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction
84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.
Please take a picture of the full-moon as it appears and post it here. Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Salam to all.
Excellent idea brother Ayman. I shall endeavour God willing to take a picture and post it here. I must say now that my mind is somewhat clear on when and how I am supposed to fast, I am looking forward to Ramadhan this year. Still a little unclear on the 10-30 days (sigh)! Still delving deep, Inshaa Allah I will have one of those Eureka moments ;) lol.
:jedi:
Peace and best wishes to all.
Salam all,
Can someone tell me how long this period will last from right after the first full moon after the summer solstice? I'm not in the mood to go through this whole thread. Thank you.
Peace FA 21098,
You can at least read the article that started this thread, no? :)
17:36. And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
Peace Abdelilah,
I'm not upholding or intending to "follow" this theory. I am aware that we shouldn't uobold anything without knowledge about it, and will certainly study this thread thoroughly. All I want at the moment is "know" the timings and the range of the fasting days in a simple sentence. So if you or anyone else would help me, I would really appreciate it :).
Peace FA 21098,
The burning full-moon ("shahr ramadan") will occur this year on June 23. Thus, the abstinence will start on Monday June 24 and will last for a completed count of a few days ("ayam ma3doodat") as per 2:185. The completion of a count is 10 as per 2:196 and 7:142.
Hope this helps ;)
Peace,
Thanks :)
Peace Birdy,
I know hardly any Arabic, but what little I do know inspired me to fast for the duration of the full moon following the longest day. This is what I did last year. I shall be doing it again this yer on the 23rd June, God willing.
I would like to remind folk that God clearly states he doesn't want to make life difficult. Well, where I come from, this year, Muslims wii find life difficult trying to fast until nearly 11pm at night. Whatever, that cannot be right.
Peace dawngorgeous and all, :sun:
thank you for respond/s.
I think the same, as you've said, that some people have to fast long days and additionaly in summer when is very hot in some countries.
According to above, In my understanding I think the fasting time should be in the time of equinox and that is spring or autmn but it needs also full moon. The other indikation are 4 months that are restricted but for hunting of wild animals. if we take in considaration that in those 4 months the wild bear or are in the state of reproduction, then it is mostly in the rain time. and those are spring or autmn. Autmn is more appropiate because the months after are still better for hunting because they are not so hot as the months after spring( summer months).
Besides of my statment in this post I've thought why couldn't muslims fast each month 3 days by full moon but only if in those 4 restricted month we are allowed to fast, or the 4 months aren't in context in Koran with fasting anyway- I fall to see any context- if so, then all of us could fast in the same time and one part of us will have sometimes long days to fast and the others short days, also colder and hotter days and that s fair. I don't understand the verse that we have to complete the fast of 10 days, only few days- full moon appears for 1 day and to complete to few days means for me 3 days.
God Mercifully knows better.
May God guide us to the stright path.
Peace All,
When I said 'that can't be right' in my last post, I was making reference to those Muslims who would be fasting for a whole month - especially until 11 pm at night, eat, then up again at 2am. They'll still be full from the night feast!
Peace,
I would say fast from when the sun rises up visibly in the sky until it disappears visibly, even if it never gets completely dark. It is the rule I applied in Sweden during Ramadan because I cannot believe we have to stop fasting and eating at 11 and then the only other opportunity is to have a meal right before 2 in the night.
With the above rule I think it becomes like 9-10pm to 3-4am time span to do whatever needs to be done until the fasting is on again.
I know how tough it is to work full-time on a demanding job and fast until very late in the night and then go up on more time after a few hours to topfill the stomach. The northern countries have a quite hard time during the fasting nights.
At least it is not the fast Youssef here on the forum undertook :)
God bless you
These days sunset is at near 10pm (daylight saving time).... but does it ever get really dark? No, dusk and dawn light merges... so the typical style of eating only when there is no white thread in the sky, just won't work. So what's going on here? Is the timing of fasting misplaced in the cycle of the solar year, or are there even greater misunderstandings going on? I find it hard to believe that God would instruct people to fast during certain times that are not even applicable at certain places during certain times of the year. Something is wrong here....
Quote from: Zulf on June 21, 2013, 11:35:31 AM
These days sunset is at near 10pm (daylight saving time).... but does it ever get really dark? No, dusk and dawn light merges... so the typical style of eating only when there is no white thread in the sky, just won't work. So what's going on here? Is the timing of fasting misplaced in the cycle of the solar year, or are there even greater misunderstandings going on? I find it hard to believe that God would instruct people to fast during certain times that are not even applicable at certain places during certain times of the year. Something is wrong here....
This is why you need Hadith. Without Hadith Quran will never make sense.
According to Hadith if there is a situation where there is continuous daylight or some other odd situation then you make an estimation or calculation for the timings of your acts of worship.
That means if you live in a place where there is continuous daylight or darkness, then you calculate using the township which is nearest to you which doesn't have that problem.
Thanks for your respons.
Right, I understand, and I've been following the same method, HOWEVER, let's be very clear here. What hadith does, is to patch up an unclear situation with a rule of exception. This doesn't address the issue at all. Actually, if we need hadith because the quran is not clear, then this is the same as saying that the quran is not complete, and hadith will complete it where needed. But again, this is not the situation. The real issue is not that information is lacking in the quran, which is then solved by information from hadith. The real issue is that we may have the incorrect understanding of the quran, and hence our understanding doesn't fit with reality/nature. See, these are two totally different situations. We must not confuse them and mix'em up.
Just to highlight again:
1. The problem according to hadith proponents: "The quran contains instructions, but further information from hadith is needed in order to make useful sense out of it all."
2. The problem according to me: "The quran contains instructions that are exhaustive, complete and accurate, but our understanding is lacking which becomes apparent when it doesn't fit nature."
The key point to understand is that our current understanding 'clashes' with nature/reality (because it is faulty)... AND that hadith does NOT solve this clash... it just ignores it and gives you a way around it while the initial clash IS STILL THERE. So hadith did NOT solve the issue, nor did it clarify it by supplying missing information. This is important to understand. Hadith doesn't do what it claims to do. It just invents another instruction, which doesn't add any clarity or explanation to the quran... rather it ignores the quran and leads away from it!
So, we don't need to do symptom treatment by adding a layer of hadith on our faulty understanding, to get even further away from the quran... rather we need to make sure we have an accurate understanding in the first place. Actually, this is at one level a matter of faith.... of personal attitude and view of God. We simply have to choose whether we believe that the quran is accurate and complete, or not.
That's how I see it. And just because there is something I may not understand right now, it would be foolish by me to make up an artificial understanding to fill the void. Such an attitude just leads further away from truth.
Peace
Quote from: Zulf on June 21, 2013, 04:46:50 PM
Thanks for your respons.
Right, I understand, and I've been following the same method, HOWEVER, let's be very clear here. What hadith does, is to patch up an unclear situation with a rule of exception. This doesn't address the issue at all. Actually, if we need hadith because the quran is not clear, then this is the same as saying that the quran is not complete, and hadith will complete it where needed. But again, this is not the situation. The real issue is not that information is lacking in the quran, which is then solved by information from hadith. The real issue is that we may have the incorrect understanding of the quran, and hence our understanding doesn't fit with reality/nature. See, these are two totally different situations. We must not confuse them and mix'em up.
Just to highlight again:
1. The problem according to hadith proponents: "The quran contains instructions, but further information from hadith is needed in order to make useful sense out of it all."
2. The problem according to me: "The quran contains instructions that are exhaustive, complete and accurate, but our understanding is lacking which becomes apparent when it doesn't fit nature."
The key point to understand is that our current understanding 'clashes' with nature/reality (because it is faulty)... AND that hadith does NOT solve this clash... it just ignores it and gives you a way around it while the initial clash IS STILL THERE. So hadith did NOT solve the issue, nor did it clarify it by supplying missing information. This is important to understand. Hadith doesn't do what it claims to do. It just invents another instruction, which doesn't add any clarity or explanation to the quran... rather it ignores the quran and leads away from it!
So, we don't need to do symptom treatment by adding a layer of hadith on our faulty understanding, to get even further away from the quran... rather we need to make sure we have an accurate understanding in the first place. Actually, this is at one level a matter of faith.... of personal attitude and view of God. We simply have to choose whether we believe that the quran is accurate and complete, or not.
That's how I see it. And just because there is something I may not understand right now, it would be foolish by me to make up an artificial understanding to fill the void. Such an attitude just leads further away from truth.
Peace
Salaamun alayka,
very nice :bravo:
Salaam,
Bender
@Zulf
You say the real problem is that we are not understanding the Quran properly. Are you saying for 1400 years no one has even understood the Quran, which claims to be a clear book which contains no doubt and a guide for righteous??
I think your dilemma is quite simple. You are on one hand claiming Quran is an exhaustive book, fully detailed, not needing any kind of supplemental text or explanation, but then on the other hand you cant even figure out such a basic thing like how to observe a fast based only the info you got from Quran.
Time for you Quranists to get real and stop deluding yourselves.
Peace,
Need no hadith for the intention and performance of the fasting for a month. It is pretty clear what one should do. If you miss or day or two unintentionally because of your shortcomings it is fine as long as you fast for the duration of a month. Intention at heart is most important.
God bless you
Quote from: Israfeel on June 21, 2013, 11:04:13 PM
@Zulf
You say the real problem is that we are not understanding the Quran properly. Are you saying for 1400 years no one has even understood the Quran, which claims to be a clear book which contains no doubt and a guide for righteous??
I say that there are some things in the quran we don't understand properly. I DO NOT say that there is no-one with the right understanding, and I DO NOT say that there has never been a correct understanding. But I wouldn't trust the majority, as also advised in the quran. The majority and main stream populace usually base its understanding on tradition and habit, and not on reason.
I believe that God guides us individually to the quran and wisdom in general. If we are not "connected" enough to God, i.e. pure of heart, we won't be blessed with insight into truth.
Also, one could say similar things about Christians.... how is it possible that they are wrong when they have been saying the same thing for longer than the quran has been around? Let's not appeal to time or numbers. Quantity will not do it if the quality is wrong.
Quote
I think your dilemma is quite simple. You are on one hand claiming Quran is an exhaustive book, fully detailed, not needing any kind of supplemental text or explanation, but then on the other hand you cant even figure out such a basic thing like how to observe a fast based only the info you got from Quran.
Time for you Quranists to get real and stop deluding yourselves.[/size]
That's the dilemma, you're right. But I'd rather admit lacking in certain understanding, and pray for guidance, instead of being over confident, ignoring the signs of discrepancy, and adopt instruction from other than God.
How about the cutting hands and smacking corpses with meat? People STILL uphold this as truth, even though it by simple logic and analysis of the quranic text can be explained in a wise, productive and sane way. So apparently there are plenty of things that already have been explained from the quran itself, while the insane version is still upheld by the majority.
Quote from: Zulf on June 22, 2013, 04:25:33 AM
How about the cutting hands and smacking corpses with meat? People STILL uphold this as truth, even though it by simple logic and analysis of the quranic text can be explained in a wise, productive and sane way. So apparently there are plenty of things that already have been explained from the quran itself, while the insane version is still upheld by the majority.
What are you trying to say? Cutting off the hands of the thief is not Quranic?
In addition to the points made by Zulf:
I would add that the Quran constantly refers to human nature and the way in which mankind is very argumentative, ungrateful and that will effect the way the majority of people deal with the Quran. Take a look at the People of the Book and what they did. It should be evident what will then happen with guidance, it won't get fair treatment - it will just be something that people can use for power, control, glory etc. This is a corrupt thing to do and people know if they are trying to "use" the Quran or understand the Quran. But they never want to rid the current cultural customs. That can still be the case for some Quran only as well, but considering different interpretations is part of trying to understand the Quran.
Quote from: Israfeel on June 22, 2013, 04:55:28 AM
What are you trying to say? Cutting off the hands of the thief is not Quranic?
Have you missed that?
You can find the explanation on this forum, and on other websites aswell, if you'd care to find out. The info is all out there.
Take out your cameras and post your pictures here.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dIzcwc_PPWc/UccTz2HsipI/AAAAAAAAAnM/OSxkm448CcE/w450-h300-no/image.jpeg)
Not of your camera ofcourse but of the full moon. Make sure you don't miss it! At sunset or shortly thereafter is the ideal moment.
QuoteNot of your camera ofcourse but of the full moon. Make sure you don't miss it! At sunset or shortly thereafter is the ideal moment.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Israfeel,
I'm afraid you are way off the mark. Years behind. The true understanding of the cutting of the hand was understood and accepted when the submitters first came to the fore years ago. We have moved on. I am afraid the situation is that Koran Aloners understand what you are saying, but unfortunately, what Koran Aloners are saying has absolutely no meaning to you. it is like a foreign language to you. It reminds me of what God points out in the Koran, that the blind cannot see and the deaf cannot hear. I am not mocking you, I am simply stating a fact - this is written in the Koran and you cannot argue with it, unless of course you are challenging God.
Dawn.
Peace.
I'm afraid we won't be able to witness the full moon over here. Very cloudy in Belgium and the Netherlands. We hope for the best. For those of you who are lucky enough to witness it: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg327565#msg327565
Peace Abdelilah.
Yes, very cloudy indeed over here at the border triangle Germany, Belgium, Netherlands. Nevertheless I am going to position myself on top of a nice hill and look out for the full moon rising. In a few minutes it is time to set forth. :yay:
Best wishes,
Timur
Beautiful moon over here in the Middle East.
Quote from: dawngorgeous on June 23, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
Beautiful moon over here in the Middle East.
Salaam,
We (my family and I) saw the reddish 'scorching full moon' here in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia at 19.52 local time (7.52am NY/12.52pm London) last night. It was a delay of almost 20 minutes from the scheduled 19.33 moonrise, possibly due to some hilltops over the horizon that the moon had to clear first, as well as the thick haze enveloping KL these last few days. By 20.45, it was huge, beautiful and high in the sky. Took photos, but unfortunately unable to upload them here. Will work on it.
We are now fasting dawn to dusk for the next ten days. For now, I am convinced that bro Dr Ayman's interpretation of the relevant verses is the best, until and if I find a better one.
God bless all.
Quote from: dawngorgeous on June 23, 2013, 04:10:46 PMBeautiful moon over here in the Middle East.
In the middle east the moon appears more dramatic due to the dusty atmosphere of the desert which refracts the moon light even more and gives it more red appearance. The Arabs must have been fascinated by this red hot moon that signals the hot time of the year and this is why they called it the scorching full moon/"shahr ramadan". Please post pictures if you can. You can use websites such as http://tinypic.com/ to upload the pics and share the links here.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
Quote from: Malayaman on June 23, 2013, 07:38:11 PMWe (my family and I) saw the reddish 'scorching full moon' here in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia at 19.52 local time (7.52am NY/12.52pm London) last night. It was a delay of almost 20 minutes from the scheduled 19.33 moonrise, possibly due to some hilltops over the horizon that the moon had to clear first, as well as the thick haze enveloping KL these last few days. By 20.45, it was huge, beautiful and high in the sky. Took photos, but unfortunately unable to upload them here. Will work on it.
We are now fasting dawn to dusk for the next ten days. For now, I am convinced that bro Dr Ayman's interpretation of the relevant verses is the best, until and if I find a better one.
Yes, it does take a little while after its rise for the full-moon to clear the hilly terrain and trees. It is amazing how the great reading pinpoints the exact spot where the full moon rises. I just tell my family to look at the aferglow of the sunset and then turn 180 degrees to the darkest point in the sky where the night seems to be spreading out from. From that exact point the full-moon eventually appears exactly like the signs in the great reading say. It is a great experience to witness the god's signs in action. God bless you and your family.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
Peace dear brother Abdelilah,
Quote from: Abdelilah on June 23, 2013, 01:32:53 PMI'm afraid we won't be able to witness the full moon over here. Very cloudy in Belgium and the Netherlands. We hope for the best. For those of you who are lucky enough to witness it: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg327565#msg327565
This year I initially wasn't able to clearly see it too due to cloud cover in my area. However, I looked at the afterglow of the sunset and then turned around 180 degrees to the darkest point in the sky where the darkness seemed to be spreading from. Amazingly, just a little over the horizon there was this orange glow faintly coming from behind the clouds. My family was amazed at how I was able pin point the location of the full-moon and identify it despite the cloud cover. This is because the god's signs showed me exactly where to look. Later the moon rose enough to be above the clouds in the distance and we were able to see it between the clouds.
Peace and god bless you,
Ayman
Salam,
It has been cloudy in London, UK... but there was some periods of clear, and I have quite a few pictures I managed to shoot with my smartphone...
I selected a few:
It would have been nice if I could get shots of the moon lower to the horizon, but it was below buildings, and there were clouds then...
comment: the Moon came from the opposite direction to the Sun, i.e. from the West...
PS. I do not know how to insert them here as images... :(
1 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/skagyx7fa08ebam/20130623_223316.jpg)
2 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/anau99ztduddt9i/20130623_223329.jpg)
3 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s7zmch9id57m1r4/20130623_223337.jpg)
4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/uo1w876af6skgrn/20130623_230045.jpg)
5 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1yafac8o4nq8ldh/20130623_230048.jpg)
6 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/r6zdty9u943jjrj/20130623_230147.jpg)
7 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fdathnzfnud4bu/20130623_230309.jpg)
8 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/i1wwuwmy51epk8j/20130623_230351.jpg)
9 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk1rx6iei8auvje/20130623_234346.jpg)
10 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1en167iyep18n08/20130623_234354.jpg)
11 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/aajzs8z4ztzm0q7/20130623_234431.jpg)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/aajzs8z4ztzm0q7/20130623_234431.jpg)
Salam, I'm not sure if it is able to upload image file but you can copy and paste the image link like this
Click on the Mona Lisa's icon above these emoticons and insert the image links beween the two []'s.
Salaam,
Quote from: Malayaman on June 23, 2013, 07:38:11 PM
Took photos, but unfortunately unable to upload them here. Will work on it.
Ok, worked it out using "TinyPic.com" - thanks bro Ayman.
1. At 7.52pm, KL time, Sunday 6/23/2013, above invisible treelined hilltops - emerging super full moon almost imperceptible:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/5me4ps.jpg)
2. At 8.42pm, from a different location in KL, surrounding looks clear due to using flash:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2m2xobn.jpg)
3. At 8.44pm, from the same location as 2. above but not using flash:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/s17y3s.jpg)
Best and God bless.
Peace everyone.
This picture was taken on top of the Lousberg at Aachen, Germany one hour after the calculated rise of the moon. It wasn't reddish anymore, but slightly yellow. I am sorry for the bad quality of my camera.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2psq3jd.jpg)
About half an hour earlier I could see the moon shining deeply orange through the clouds, but unfortunately only for a few seconds and only a small part of the moon was visible. Nevertheless I can imagine how impressive this full moon would have been, if there were no clouds obstructing its light. I was impressed anyway.
Peace,
Timur
salam Ayman or more,
do you speack french please???
God willing, it will work now:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2hdqiy0.jpg)
this is an interesting one, as it seems to moon is reflected off the clouds themselves :)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2h3pthw.jpg)
when sky became clearer, on its own, almost:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zzhpcj.jpg)
behind a window (suffers from refraction):
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2mc9lir.jpg)
All praise belong to Allah the Master of the Universe...
Salam
Nabil
PS - using: http://tinypic.com
peace:
bravooo: quraniyoons are going to fast in the full moon of summer solstice, now they will be worshipers of the sun.
what I understand:The year has 12 شُّهُورِ (aljazeem/almaany dictionaries=months, declare, announce, proclaim, promulgate, etc. but never full moon, so full moon=conjecture. قَمَرَ is moon ) and we have to fast 1 شْهُرٍ and not a number of days as many twist it.
2:185 شْهُرٍ of Ramadan in which the Qur'an was ...... Hence, whoever of you lives to see شْهُرٍ then shall fast it فَلْيَصُمْهُ...........
as you see the word says to fast the shahru, and not in the shahru. the "in/therein" is none existing, so the translators must be adding it. Maybe they wish to fast a short time in it and not it.
now, the problem of confusion because every body says, "is not a month but a number of days, " is because of the next two verses, but lest see them in a different light:2:183O YOU who have attained to faith! Fasting is ordained for you as it was ordained for those before you, so that you might remain conscious of God: (2:184) [fasting] during a certain number of days. But whoever .....
as you see the verse number and word "fasting" are being added, but if we remove that, we end up with the fragment "a number of days"; however, this is solved if we add this fragment to the previous phrase, then we se the complete meaning. Arranged in this way, without adding or deleting words, the verses are not referring/talking about to the length of fasting anymore, but to the purpose of the fast.2:183O YOU who have attained to faith! Fasting is ordained for you as it was ordained for those before you, so that you might remain conscious of God during a number of days. But whoever .....
The cycle of the moon even in the polytheist calendars has been for thousands of years from when first appears until it disappears. If we accept your wonderful find :o that a cycle of the moon is from one full moon to next full moon, then a day is from mid day to mid day ;), and not from down to dusk. Definitely, no body can guide to whom God wants to lead astray :'(.
peace, Ayman and more
Sorry for my English but I little speak your language and I the use a translator to read and express me
I always ask the question whether it was the moment of the breaking of the fast and reading these verses I think understand how determining the beginning and the end of the period of prayer to the dawn and the sunset, and this will also determine the time of breaking the fast.
Here is the reason for my analysis
56.75.فَلَا أُقسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ
56.75. Nay, I swear by the places of the stars
56.75. Fala oqsimu bimawaqiAAi alnnujoomi
16.16.وَعَلامَاتٍ وَبِالنَّجْمِ هُمْ يَهْتَدُونَ
16.16. And landmarks (too), and by the star they find a way.
16.16. WaAAalamatin wabialnnajmi hum yahtadoona
6.97.وَهُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ لَكُمُ النُّجُومَ لِتَهْتَدُواْ بِهَا فِي ظُلُمَاتِ الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ قَدْ فَصَّلْنَا الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ
6.97. And He it is Who hath set for you the stars that ye may guide your course by them amid the darkness of the land and the sea We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
These verses explain that the stars are cosmic benchmarks, and not a measurement tool, but complements the Sun and the Moon
52.49.وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْهُ وَإِدْبَارَ النُّجُومِ
52.49. And in the night time also hymn His praise, and at the setting of the stars.
52.49. Wamina allayli fasabbihhu wa-idbara alnnujoomi
This verse explains that the end of the appearance of Star plurals so less than three stars determines the exact time of the dawn, and by mirroring this also applies to the sunset with the appearance in the sky of a minimum of 3 stars to define accurately the night, thus breaking the fast. I is not need stress you that the appearance or disappearance of the Sun at the horizon determines the end or the beginning of the prayers.
What think you?
Langue source
Et ce verset explique que la fin de l?apparition d??toile aux pluriels donc moins de trois ?toiles d?termine le moment exact de l?aube, et par effet miroir cela s?applique aussi au coucher du soleil avec l?apparition dans le ciel d?un minimum de 3 ?toiles pour d?finir avec exactitude la nuit, donc la rupture du je?ne.
Quote from: wrkmmn on June 25, 2013, 07:01:53 PM
peace:
bravooo: quraniyoons are going to fast in the full moon of summer solstice, now they will be worshipers of the sun.
what I understand:The year has 12 شُّهُورِ (aljazeem/almaany dictionaries=months, declare, announce, proclaim, promulgate, etc. but never full moon, so full moon=conjecture. قَمَرَ is moon ) and we have to fast 1 شْهُرٍ and not a number of days as many twist it.
2:185 شْهُرٍ of Ramadan in which the Qur'an was ...... Hence, whoever of you lives to see شْهُرٍ then shall fast it فَلْيَصُمْهُ...........
as you see the word says to fast the shahru, and not in the shahru. the "in/therein" is none existing, so the translators must be adding it. Maybe they wish to fast a short time in it and not it.
now, the problem of confusion because every body says, "is not a month but a number of days, " is because of the next two verses, but lest see them in a different light:2:183O YOU who have attained to faith! Fasting is ordained for you as it was ordained for those before you, so that you might remain conscious of God: (2:184) [fasting] during a certain number of days. But whoever .....
as you see the verse number and word "fasting" are being added, but if we remove that, we end up with the fragment "a number of days"; however, this is solved if we add this fragment to the previous phrase, then we se the complete meaning. Arranged in this way, without adding or deleting words, the verses are not referring/talking about to the length of fasting anymore, but to the purpose of the fast.2:183O YOU who have attained to faith! Fasting is ordained for you as it was ordained for those before you, so that you might remain conscious of God during a number of days. But whoever .....
The cycle of the moon even in the polytheist calendars has been for thousands of years from when first appears until it disappears. If we accept your wonderful find :o that a cycle of the moon is from one full moon to next full moon, then a day is from mid day to mid day ;), and not from down to dusk. Definitely, no body can guide to whom God wants to lead astray :'(.
Salaam Dear wrkmmn,
Your reasoning is flawless and quite logical. GOD bless you.
Peace,
Khalil
Quote from: wrkmmn on June 25, 2013, 07:01:53 PM
2:185 شْهُرٍ of Ramadan in which the Qur'an was ...... Hence, whoever of you lives to see شْهُرٍ then shall fast it فَلْيَصُمْهُ...........
as you see the word says to fast the shahru, and not in the shahru. the "in/therein" is none existing, so the translators must be adding it. Maybe they wish to fast a short time in it and not it.
Peace,
According to you, we have to fast
a single day as per falYASUMhu, as it is referring to only one sawm of the month?
You are making it more easier bro ;)
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Peace everyone,
To be dismayed, and use the type of sarcasm included in previous posts, because people have come to a different conclusion to you about a particular practice, in this case Ramadan - especially because they might not the ins and outs of Arabic, makes me wonder. It makes me wonder about what people think it means to be Muslim. Being knowledgeable in Arabic can have its benefits, but Allah swt is the Most High in Majesty, if He wills it anyone can understand however much they need to of the Quran - even if they only grasp a small out of Arabic. That small amount being the Arabic they pick up while reading it.
I would have thought what would matter is all those things that anyone - without knowing Arabic - can understand in immense detail. Such as when Luqman talks to his son about important things - it refers to not creating associates with Allah swt, not being arrogant, thankfulness to Allah swt, good to parents (and implied there is that parents are good to children and bring them up well), that Allah swt sees and hears all things in a way we don't need to know, about building our relationship with God swt. All of these things are central and important as described as wisdom given to Luqman. Not just did he know it but he emphasised practicing it. Arabic can be looked up by non-Muslims and they can work out their own conclusions as done here about Ramadan and similar things, if they come to the "right" conclusion, does that make them Muslim? I don't think so, what matters is sincerity to Allah swt and that people practice the things Allah swt mentions many times in terms of our character and our behaviour. The central Islamic principles could be something everyone who will come to the path practices --- even prior to fully embracing Islam in terms of One God or fully accepting the Quran. So it seems that that is what is most important. Exploring other practices has its place too, but the most often repeated verses contain other Quranic/Islamic principles about behaviour.
May Allah swt bless and reward all those strive in His way no matter how "small" it may seem, Allah swt is appreciative, all Praise is ultimately due to our Cherisher.
Salaam Dear sister,
I did not have the slightest intention of being SARCASTIC in my post. I just wanted to let WRKMMN to know that, according to verses of The Qur?aan, I have the same understanding regarding RAMADZAN, i.e. the MONTH OF FASTING. I wanted to confirm that ALLAAH, swt, has ordained for us to FAST the WHOLE month of RAMADZAN, i.e. from the NEW MOON CRESENT of the NINTH month of Islamic LUNAR calendar-year to the NEW MOON CRESENT of the TENTH month, i.e. to fast either 29 or 30 consecutive days through the WHOLE month of RAMADZAN. The Qur?aan is straightforward regarding this issue. Exotic and philosophical interpretations are nothing but innovative conjectures.
And I agree with you 100% when you say ?... Allah swt is the Most High in Majesty, if He wills it anyone can understand however much they need to of the Quran - even if they only grasp a small out of Arabic...?
Our degree of Guidance doesn?t have anything to do with our academic, linguistic, theological, and whatnot knowledge.
Peace,
Khalil
Peace brother,
I wasn't really referring to you. I was also mentioning it because I've seen the sentiment expressed elsewhere on here or other places. People are free to express that, I'm just saying, it makes me wonder a little.
It's called the Ego... or Uncontrolled Mind. It jumps at statements we hear, being very very defensive... interpreting so many things as threats against us(itself). Useless bickering, debates and arguments are a sign of the uncontrolled mind... running the show while our real selves are at it's mercy due to "unconsciousness"....
Quote from: ayman on August 31, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
You can see the meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab as I quoted earlier on this thread or summarized here:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Salam.
Most of your articles can no longer be seen/read in the new free-minds website. Where can we find them; especially the ones dealing with shahr ramadhan and salah/learning connection?
Alhamdulillah.
Ramon
Peace Ramon.
I think some can be found here: http://www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/language.htm
Quote from: kgwithnob on June 26, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
Our degree of Guidance doesn?t have anything to do with our academic, linguistic, theological, and whatnot knowledge.
:bravo: :handshake: :bravo:
Peace Ramon,
Quote from: Ramon on July 03, 2013, 11:44:11 PM
Most of your articles can no longer be seen/read in the new free-minds website. Where can we find them; especially the ones dealing with shahr ramadhan and salah/learning connection?
01 - Far In The Horizon (http://www.free-minds.org/far-horizon)
02 - Know Thy Enemy (http://www.free-minds.org/know-thy-enemy)
03 - Rules Of Engagement (http://www.free-minds.org/rules-engagement)
04 - Free Choice (http://www.free-minds.org/free-choice)
05 - The Natural Republic (http://www.free-minds.org/natural-republic)
06 - The Trust (http://www.free-minds.org/trust)
07 - The Hidden Side (http://www.free-minds.org/hidden-side-straight-path)
08 - Magic! (http://www.free-minds.org/magic)
09 - What's In The Name (http://www.free-minds.org/whats-name)
10 - Blind Dating VS Perfect Timing (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0)
11 - Language Barrier (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9527.0)
12 - Idiot's Guide To Code 19 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9721.msg41107#msg41107) + The Code 19 Debate
13 - How Did It Come To This_Part 1 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.msg71066#msg71066)
14 - How Did It Come To This_Part 2 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11419.msg76440#msg76440)
15 - Introduction To Peacefulness (http://www.free-minds.org/introduction-peacefulness)
Abdelilah
Salam.
Thanks Timur & Abdelilah for the links!
Alhamdulillah.
peace brother Ayman, all,
I finally read your article.
Firstly, thanks for sharing your research, it is appreciated.
With regard to the timing discussion, I agreed with many, not all, points in your article, as it is quite a lot to digest. I'd need to think over it some more. One question that came to my mind about your understanding was the following:
2:185 says whoever witnessed the shahr/full-moon should abstain it
---> you take this to mean a number of days: 3-10 (if I have understood you correctly)
2:217 asks about the inviolable shahr/full-moon: is there fighting in it
---> how long a time do you take this as?
IF there is any discrepancy between the two parts in red - can you clarify/explain why, thanks.
Peace brother Wakas.
Quote from: Wakas on August 07, 2013, 11:37:59 AM
2:185 says whoever witnessed the shahr/full-moon should abstain it
---> you take this to mean a number of days: 3-10 (if I have understood you correctly)
As far as I know brother Ayman refers this back to 2:183: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220451;topicseen#msg220451
Quote from: Wakas on August 07, 2013, 11:37:59 AM
2:217 asks about the inviolable shahr/full-moon: is there fighting in it
---> how long a time do you take this as?
Here we have the preposition "fi", which we do not have in 2:185. Therefore I think it denotes the period delimited by those four full-moons and this is period of 3 months.
peace brother Timur,
Thanks, I was unaware of the alternative "hu" reference. It seems theoretically possible.
In 2:217 inviolable shahr is singular so to me "in it/full-moon" doesn't sound ideal. I will see what bro Ayman has to say.
#####
As a side note, I read most of this thread today. I should have made a list of the key points I wanted to highlight but it was quite a laborious task reading all of it as it was. In any case, a few thoughts from memory:
We can all (or most) agree that the traditional present-day timing system would be very difficult (perhaps impossible) to prove as per Quran.
It would have been much better if those opposed to Ayman's view presented a couple of their strongest points in a clear and concise manner - this may have prevented the thread being so long. Some did get better at doing this however.
There were a few interesting/reasonable arguments against, but most of these were clarified - thus, the original article really needs an up to date write-up to reflect this.
There was some discussion about days of abstinence being 3-10, and one thing that came to my mind is that perhaps a fixed number is not given because not everyone will witness the start/end points the same. "10 complete" in 2:196 (if it is related) may be indicating that since there is no fixed number, 10 may have been the average hence it is reassuring the reader/believer that 10 is complete for them.
truthseeker171 thinks it meant 3 but one would think if it was 3 why doesn't Quran just say 3. Also, one can have witnessed the full-moon but only have one day left of it to abstain, thus I think of the options, this seems the weaker one.
There was another issue brought up by Nun/Pseudo about the weaning+bearing = 30 shahr. Even though possible explanations were given, each Nun and Ayman had their own, there seems to be another option: I did some cross-reference and it seems the bearing is referring to carrying the burden, so it likely at least refers to when a bump is visible, and this about 2-4 months for most.
There were some aspects not discussed much - at least I don't think they were, e.g. how the ahilat fit into the hajj timing 2:189, the issue I raised with 9:1-5 (see here (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605648.0)). I also think the finding related to "al masjid al haram" (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html) may help clarify things.
Overall, I'm not entirely convinced by the full-moon theory but it does seem to be the strongest option so far. It will be much better if an updated write-up is done. It is possible it can be fine-tuned further.
Peace all.
Wakas I would be interested to read your theory on Shahr Ramadan, if you would be so kind as to comment on what you have so far, I would really appreciate it.
peace SD,
I haven't studied the timing, or terms, in much detail, so I don't have any strong view at the moment.
QuoteOverall, I'm not entirely convinced by the full-moon theory but it does seem to be the strongest option so far. It will be much better if an updated write-up is done. It is possible it can be fine-tuned further.
Peace Wakas.
Thank you. I look forward to your views.
Quote from: ayman on June 23, 2013, 11:36:36 PM
In the middle east the moon appears more dramatic due to the dusty atmosphere of the desert which refracts the moon light even more and gives it more red appearance. The Arabs must have been fascinated by this red hot moon that signals the hot time of the year and this is why they called it the scorching full moon/"shahr ramadan". Please post pictures if you can. You can use websites such as http://tinypic.com/ to upload the pics and share the links here.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
salam,
Excuse me for my English
When I read the work of Dr. AYMAN, I ask the question of the exact date of the fasting period, despite are explanation I assumed "layl qadr" was refers to the Equinox of September and not to the summer solstice, but reading the verse 10/5 my open mind on something else.
Being that give ?manazil? means a backward step, as for the moon with one as starting with a full moon, why the Sun which is also involved in this verse would not also this specificity?
But how to measure it, since there is no system of Crescent?
It remains more than his race in the sky which allows to determine these backward steps "manazil.
so to respect the principle of ?manazil? we measure it in are the highest step to start the calculation.
still us more than the solstice the Sun highest summer before descending.
Another verse States that persons who complete the "hajj" can once again hunt. This implies that they come out of the 4 moons restrictive and that the last restricted Moon is linked to the "hajj" and not to the young.
When do you think?
peace all,
Perhaps we can also consider:
Classical Arabic usage clearly gives us the meaning of "shahr" as moon (in all its phases it seems) and month. The meaning of month is inextricably linked to moon.
Thus, does "shahr" simply mean "moon", and we must use logic/context to determine when it means "moon" and when it means "month" in Quran?
From my studies, use of logic/context to determine which meaning is meant is relatively common in Quran.
Just a thought.
QuoteWhen I read the work of Dr. AYMAN, I ask the question of the exact date of the fasting period, despite are explanation I assumed "layl qadr" was refers to the Equinox of September and not to the summer solstice, but reading the verse 10/5 my open mind on something else.
Peace Bachton..
I also debated this question for a very long time. This question of whether the fasting time begins with the Equinox of September or the Solstice of June. After many months of pondering, I have come to accept the Solstice theory (around June 21-23) as the most viable one. Let me explain to you why, very briefly:
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat, while "shahr" means "that which is the clear mark or announcement of something". The Arabs used to call the moon "shahr" when it became fat and neared fullness (because it became clear and apparent). Hence, "Shahr Ramadan" is that moon which annouces / makes clear the period of heat.
The reason why September was fitted into the equation is because the term "Ramdhiyy" was given to the rain when it fell upon the hot ground. They assumed that because we have rain mixing with hot earth, this must mean that we are in autumn. But this is only from the point of view of those who live in climates where the rain season happens to start in September. But this is not so in many areas of the world. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the rainy season is during March/April. That marks the end of the cold season there. It never rains there in September. (Those members who live in Saudi Arabia can confirm this). In many parts of Europe and North America, the rainy season is in summer, where the most savage of thunderstorms and torrential rain can be witnessed in June or July, when the earth is hot from the summer. So their Ramdhiyy comes in June.
As you can see, inserting rain into the picture will only serve to confuse matters. Simply stick to the original meaning of the root "Ra-Mim-Dad", which means "HEAT". And what better marker (shahr) we have to announce the begining of the heat season than the full moon of the summer Solstice, when the moon is exceptionally large over the horizon, and assumes a distinct orange hue?
Isn't this better than blindly following Sistani or the Mufti of Saudi Arabia, or Hassan Fadhlallah, and the other so-called "marja3s", who resort to their esoteric "calculations" and often reach contradicting results for no better reason than to spite each other and increase the sectarian division among their followers, to achieve their own worldly ends?
Now since the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil"), until it assumes the appearence of a thin, curved sheath, this means that if you count 10 days from the occurence of the super full moon of the Solstice, you arrive at the "hilal" (crescent), which marks the end of your fast.
So far, I think this is the most logical and convincing formula put forth.QuoteAnother verse States that persons who complete the "hajj" can once again hunt. This implies that they come out of the 4 moons restrictive and that the last restricted Moon is linked to the "hajj" and not to the young.
When do you think?
Yes, there is clearly a period of restirction from hunting, which the Quran states is 4 "ashhur". Even if we translate this as 4 months, it would still contradict the mockery being practiced today in Makkah, where they put on their so-called "Ihram Dress" and abstain for a mere 4 or 5 days while they are conducting their rituals. Is this really the "ihram" mentioned in the Quran?
Although I am certain that Ramadhan comes in summer, I am inclined to believe - for now - that the period of Hajj may be the spring months which end immediately before Ramadan. Hence late February until the Solstice of June is the period when hunting game is prohibitted.
Thanks for your input.
Salam Wakas ,In my understanding the answer to your below question : Quote from: Wakas on October 06, 2013, 09:11:38 AM
Thus, does "shahr" simply mean "moon", and we must use logic/context to determine when it means "moon" and when it means "month" in Quran?
From my studies, use of logic/context to determine which meaning is meant is relatively common in Quran.
Just a though
lies on your same post in first statement below :Quote from: Wakas on October 06, 2013, 09:11:38 AM
The meaning of month is inextricably linked to moon.
Salam Pazuzu ,Quote from: Pazuzu on October 06, 2013, 10:13:05 AM
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat.
I believe too that rmdh رمض is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below :Quote from: Alkitab الكتاب on September 15, 2013, 09:22:05 AM
Salam Dear All ,
Some Arabic linguistic illustration from The Qur'an :
Difference between Al-Rahman & Al-Rahim
Al-Rahman is under the pattern Fa3lan
Al-Rahim is under the pattern Fa3il
The Pattern Fa3lan indicate :
- Incidence ( الحدوت )
- Regeneration ( التجدد )
- Fullness ( الأمتلاء )
- Reaching the Maximum of the description ( الأتصاف بالوصف الى حده الأقصى )
Ex : Ghadban غضبان / Angry , Mean he was full of anger , the anger regenerate that it reach its maximum .
Mean that the rmdh رمض has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh رمض will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh رمض has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
Quote from: Alkitab الكتاب on October 06, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
Salam Wakas ,
In my understanding the answer to your below question :
lies on your same post in first statement below :
Salam Pazuzu ,
I believe too that rmdh رمض is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below :
Mean that the rmdh رمض has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh رمض will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh رمض has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
peace,
Hello
Sorry for my English
Verse 10/5 uses "manazil' for the Moon and the Sun, so if ?manazil? is a backward step, this explains clearly that for the Moon that begins with the full moon as the stress Dr. Ayman, but also to the Sun and it cannot start with the summer solstice since (c) its highest point in a year.
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
Which confirms the theory of Dr. Ayman in explaining that the year begins with the summer solstice.
What do you think.
do you speack french??????
peace,
Quote from: bachton on October 07, 2013, 11:48:46 AM
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
See:
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=10&verse=5#(10:5:1)
Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan wa alqamara nooran waqaddara
hu manazila...
red = feminine
blue = masculine
hu = masculine singular
"...qaddara/determined hu/it manazila/phases..."
Quote from: bachton on October 07, 2013, 11:48:46 AM
peace,
Hello
Sorry for my English
Verse 10/5 uses "manazil' for the Moon and the Sun, so if ?manazil? is a backward step, this explains clearly that for the Moon that begins with the full moon as the stress Dr. Ayman, but also to the Sun and it cannot start with the summer solstice since (c) its highest point in a year.
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
Which confirms the theory of Dr. Ayman in explaining that the year begins with the summer solstice.
What do you think.
do you speack french??????
salam bachton ,
the word " manazil / stages or phases " is only used for the moon in the verse 10:5
10:5 ( It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it stages - that you may know the number of years and account [of time]. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know) (http://imageshack.us/a/img593/5567/dzi0.jpg)
The sun and the moon are a one united mechanism , but the sun it self in its orbits is not mentioned in the quran to be a tool to determine years and counts , the tool for this is the moon only using indirectly the reflected light of the sun at dark ( night ) ( they are one unified mechanism , but we use only the moon to witness the years and the count ) As for 12:7
سورة الإسراء - سورة 17 - 12
وجعلنا الليل والنهار ايتين فمحونا اية الليل وجعلنا اية النهار مبصرة لتبتغوا فضلا من ربكم ولتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب وكل شيء فصلناه تفصيلا
17:12 (And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account [of time]. And everything We have set out in detail.)This verse is mentioning that allaah has mad the sign of the day/light visible مبصره because if the sign of the day wasn't visible you could not distinguish between day/light and the night so you cant make any count because you can't know the concept of one full day ( night + daylight) ...with no light visible mobasser مبصر , to distinguish between night and day there would be no way to count ...imagine the day يوم is all night with no daylight you will make no difference as how many days passed and how many left , you see the point ? the daylight role from the sun is to distinguish between night and daylight so we can distinguish between days so we can count , you can count by that system only without the moon but you'll never know exactly when the year has finished , also it's very hard and useless that someone use the tool of the day to count 60 days or 40 nights , the easiest and the tool designed for that is the Moon by its stages , also the count of the years is practical through the count of the numbers of months ( full moon to the next full moon ) , and the qur'an told us that they are twelve 12 .
This verse is not pointing at all that we should use the sun as a tool to know the count and the years , but the sun itself is indirectly used by the swap of night and daylight . so the only tool to be used for the count and the years is the moon stages , the sun is already withing that mechanism (http://imageshack.us/a/img23/1248/r9l.gif)
Moon stages to be used to determin number of days so number of months number of year...withouth the sun it would be impoosible to distinguish between naight and daylight so the count become impossible as it will be a expended monotone state "sardmad سرمد " سورة القصص - سورة 28 - آية 71
قل ارايتم ان جعل الله عليكم الليل سرمدا الى يوم القيامة من اله غير الله ياتيكم بضياء افلا تسمعون
28:71 ( Say, "Have you considered: if Allah should make for you the night continuous until the Day of Resurrection, what other than Allah could bring you light ( diaA )? Then will you not hear?")The light (diaA ضياء ) from the sun is used to distinguish between night and daylight so we can start to count using the moon , without the light of the sun the tool of the moon is useless because the moon is in need of the light ( diaA ) to be visible , it's the Sun who make the moon mechanism visible so can used it for the counting , so the sun is indirectly used in the mechanism of the moon and that is what was meant in 17:12 . notice that is the DiaA ضياء which is used in 10:5 not the sun as it's pointing to the light itself , it is pointing to the concept of making things visible and distinguishable
Quote from: bachton on October 07, 2013, 11:48:46 AM
do you speack french??????
sorry ! yes i speak french ! do you ?
(http://imageshack.us/a/img23/1248/r9l.gif)
The numbers that are identifying moon stages is wrong in that particular picture as the first day is the full moon stage n?17 in the picture and it goes on
Quote from: Alkitab الكتاب on October 07, 2013, 01:24:23 PM
salam bachton ,
the word " manazil / stages or phases " is only used for the moon in the verse 10:5
10:5 ( It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it stages - that you may know the number of years and account [of time]. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know)
salam wakas,
10.5. Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila .......
diyaan = masculin
nooran = masculin
hu= masculin
In the end this is neither the Moon nor the Sun which is used to measure, but the light that they emit (Sun) or reflected (Moon), such as the phases of the Moon the Moon and as the light of day for the Sun, therefore the 'hu' male tells us about the male 'light'?
translate in french :
Au final ce n?est ni la lune ni le soleil qui sert ? la mesure, mais la lumi?re qu?ils ?mettent (soleil) ou refl?t(lune), comme celle des phases lunaire pour la lune et comme la lumi?re du jour pour le soleil, donc le ? hu ? masculin nous parle de la ? lumi?re ?masculin ???
(http://imageshack.us/a/img593/5567/dzi0.jpg)
The sun and the moon are a one united mechanism , but the sun it self in its orbits is not mentioned in the quran to be a tool to determine years and counts , the tool for this is the moon only using indirectly the reflected light of the sun at dark ( night ) ( they are one unified mechanism , but we use only the moon to witness the years and the count )
As for 12:7
سورة الإسراء - سورة 17 - 12
وجعلنا الليل والنهار ايتين فمحونا اية الليل وجعلنا اية النهار مبصرة لتبتغوا فضلا من ربكم ولتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب وكل شيء فصلناه تفصيلا
17:12 (And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account [of time]. And everything We have set out in detail.)
This verse is mentioning that allaah has mad the sign of the day/light visible مبصره because if the sign of the day wasn't visible you could not distinguish between day/light and the night so you cant make any count because you can't know the concept of one full day ( night + daylight) ...with no light visible mobasser مبصر , to distinguish between night and day there would be no way to count ...imagine the day يوم is all night with no daylight you will make no difference as how many days passed and how many left , you see the point ? the daylight role from the sun is to distinguish between night and daylight so we can distinguish between days so we can count , you can count by that system only without the moon but you'll never know exactly when the year has finished , also it's very hard and useless that someone use the tool of the day to count 60 days or 40 nights , the easiest and the tool designed for that is the Moon by its stages , also the count of the years is practical through the count of the numbers of months ( full moon to the next full moon ) , and the qur'an told us that they are twelve 12 .
This verse is not pointing at all that we should use the sun as a tool to know the count and the years , but the sun itself is indirectly used by the swap of night and daylight . so the only tool to be used for the count and the years is the moon stages , the sun is already withing that mechanism
(http://imageshack.us/a/img23/1248/r9l.gif)
Moon stages to be used to determin number of days so number of months number of year...withouth the sun it would be impoosible to distinguish between naight and daylight so the count become impossible as it will be a expended monotone state "sardmad سرمد "
سورة القصص - سورة 28 - آية 71
قل ارايتم ان جعل الله عليكم الليل سرمدا الى يوم القيامة من اله غير الله ياتيكم بضياء افلا تسمعون
28:71 ( Say, "Have you considered: if Allah should make for you the night continuous until the Day of Resurrection, what other than Allah could bring you light ( diaA )? Then will you not hear?")
The light (diaA ضياء ) from the sun is used to distinguish between night and daylight so we can start to count using the moon , without the light of the sun the tool of the moon is useless because the moon is in need of the light ( diaA ) to be visible , it's the Sun who make the moon mechanism visible so can used it for the counting , so the sun is indirectly used in the mechanism of the moon and that is what was meant in 17:12 . notice that is the DiaA ضياء which is used in 10:5 not the sun as it's pointing to the light itself , it is pointing to the concept of making things visible and distinguishable
Peace Alkitab,
Quote from: Alkitab الكتاب on October 07, 2013, 01:24:23 PM
This verse is mentioning that allaah has mad the sign of the day/light visible مبصره because if the sign of the day wasn't visible you could not distinguish between day/light and the night so you cant make any count because you can't know the concept of one full day ( night + daylight)
Why count days at all? 17:12 mentions years (sineen) not days (ayyaam)! Hence the change of day (nahar) and night (layl) is sufficient for determining a year (sanat). This makes the year clearly solar.
Quote from: Timur on October 09, 2013, 04:56:59 AM
Peace Alkitab,
Why count days at all? 17:12 mentions years (sineen) not days (ayyaam)! Hence the change of day (nahar) and night (layl) is sufficient for determining a year (sanat). This makes the year clearly solar.
Salam Timur ,The verse 17:12 is mentioning years ( sineen ) and (al-hissab ) mean counts or counting , to count what ? of course to count days , here are many things in the quran that needs days counting ex from the quran : 3days , 7 days in 2:196 . 2 days in 2:203 . the known counted days in 2:184 and 2:203 . also we need to count days for selling and buying purpose according to 2:282 :
2:282 (O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a fixed time , write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] time. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah. And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. )
So we need to count days .Quote from: bachton on October 08, 2013, 06:01:35 AM
salam wakas,
10.5. Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila .......
diyaan = masculin
nooran = masculin
hu= masculin
In the end this is neither the Moon nor the Sun which is used to measure, but the light that they emit (Sun) or reflected (Moon), such as the phases of the Moon the Moon and as the light of day for the Sun, therefore the 'hu' male tells us about the male 'light'?
translate in french :
Au final ce n?est ni la lune ni le soleil qui sert ? la mesure, mais la lumi?re qu?ils ?mettent (soleil) ou refl?t(lune), comme celle des phases lunaire pour la lune et comme la lumi?re du jour pour le soleil, donc le ? hu ? masculin nous parle de la ? lumi?re ?masculin ???
Salam bachton ,
You can consider it that way if you want as it's true too , but when you are witnessing the moon at night during its stages can you make difference between the light of the moon and the moon itself ? the light , the sun and the moon is a one mechanisme
Vous pouvez envisager de cette fa?on , si vous voulez , c'est vrai aussi, mais quand vous ?tes t?moin de la lune dans la nuit au cours de ses ?tapes pouvez-vous faire la diff?rence entre la lumi?re de la lune et la lune elle-m?me ? la lumi?re le soliel la lune est un seul m?canisme
Quote from: Pazuzu on October 06, 2013, 10:13:05 AM
The reason why September was fitted into the equation is because the term "Ramdhiyy" was given to the rain when it fell upon the hot ground. They assumed that because we have rain mixing with hot earth, this must mean that we are in autumn. But this is only from the point of view of those who live in climates where the rain season happens to start in September. But this is not so in many areas of the world. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the rainy season is during March/April. That marks the end of the cold season there. It never rains there in September. (Those members who live in Saudi Arabia can confirm this). In many parts of Europe and North America, the rainy season is in summer, where the most savage of thunderstorms and torrential rain can be witnessed in June or July, when the earth is hot from the summer. So their Ramdhiyy comes in June.
Salaam Brother
Really , i dont know why you are seeing raining in Saudi Arabia. What happened there ? :o
Look here for Yemen:
http://athaia.org/yemen-meteo-climat-fr.html
(rain is called pluie in french)
Now, September hypothesis is based for me on these facts:
- Meaning of word ramadhan as you noticed.
- Meaning of word qadr (measure) wich can be understood as perfect equilibrum between lenght day and length of night
- equinox day is equinox day il all the planet, even in north pole. Summer solistice in noth hemisphere in winter is south and there is no night in north pole.
-Based on 30-2 and history of persian/roman war, year 617 is propably the year in wich occured the layloatou el qadr in wich quran was revealed. It was both laylatou el qadr (equinox) and shahr ramadhan (full moon of ramadhan) as quran said it was revealed in both laylatou el qadr and shahr ramadhan. Night of 20 spetember 617 was night of such a concidence. Moreover , it was a night in wich moon was at perigee, wich means that it was a supermoon (the biggest moon possible in the sky). The next full moon, the one of 20 october 617, was ? night of inchiqaq qamar, that is a lunar eclipse in middle east whare moon appeared splitted in two.
and here are the proofs:
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLEmap/0601-0700/LE0617-10-20P.gif
and just type year 617 here
http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
What a beautiful night it was.
Peace
Quote from: Alkitab الكتاب on October 06, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
Salam Pazuzu ,
I believe too that rmdh رمض is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below :
Mean that the rmdh رمض has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh رمض will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh رمض has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
Peace Al-Kitab
What about superlative of ra-mim-dhad" which is "armadh" vs "ramadhan"
"Armadh" shall be "the most scorching" or "the hottest" the form similar to:
akbar
asfal
asghar
May i know what is the core difference between these two form of derivative.
best n peace,
ashraf vs sharafan
Quote from: Ashraf on October 26, 2013, 03:46:22 AM
Peace Al-Kitab
What about superlative of ra-mim-dhad" which is "armadh" vs "ramadhan"
"Armadh" shall be "the most scorching" or "the hottest" the form similar to:
akbar
asfal
asghar
May i know what is the core difference between these two form of derivative.
best n peace,
ashraf vs sharafan
Salam Ashraf ,
Armadh is under the pattern Af3al it is a superlative or comparative pattern between two or more ex :
This month is Armadh from all the al-shuhur so this month is Ramdan
Allaah is Arham al-rahimyin so he is al-rahman
Iblis is the AshaT from all the rest of the world , so he is al-shaytan
The pattern Af3al can also be used as a name when the al is added at the begining
سورة المنافقون - سورة 63 - آية 8
يقولون لئن رجعنا الى المدينة ليخرجن الاعز منها الاذل ولله العزة ولرسوله وللمؤمنين ولكن المنافقين لا يعلمون
63:8 (They say, "If we return to al-Madinah, the more honored (al-A3az) will surely expel therefrom the more humble ( al-Adal )." And to Allah belongs [all] honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know.)The pattern Af3al is only used to indicate comparison and superlative forms between two things or more , while the pattern Fa3lan doesn't require comparison or superlative form , if something was known to be the most in a state or attribute compered superlatively to other-things under the pattern Af3al then his name become under the pattern Fa3lan , ex :
allaah Arham al-rahemyin
allah is the most merciful from all others
So allaah is al-rahman ( the name form of the most merciful under the pattern Fa3lan ) , we can also say allah is al-arham ( under the pattern Af3al ) but this form is a comparative and superlative , the name that is concluded from that comparative superlative form is al-rahman
Comparative & superlative form Name derived
Form : Af3al Form : fa3lan
Armadh----------------------------------------------= ramdan
Ashtan-----------------------------------------------= shaytan
Aryah ------------------------------------------------= rayhan
Aanass-----------------------------------------------= inssan
A3tash------------------------------------------------= 3atshan
So the pattern Fa3lan ( name ) is including the pattern Af3al ( comparative & superlative adjective )
Quote from: Wakas on October 07, 2013, 12:25:57 PM
peace,
See:
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=10&verse=5#(10:5:1)
Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan wa alqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila...
red = feminine
blue = masculine
hu = masculine singular
"...qaddara/determined hu/it manazila/phases..."
salam,
i have a question, please.
17.12.وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِتَبْتَغُواْ فَضْلاً مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاً
17.12 . And we appoint the night and the day
two portents . Then We make dark the portent of the night , and We make
the portent of the day sight giving , that ye may seek bounty from your Lord , and that ye may know the computation of the years , and the reckoning ; and everything have We expounded with a clear expounding .
10/5.Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa
diyaan wa alqamara
nooran waqaddara
hu manazila...
the portent/signs is a
light?????? and not a moon???
Does Ramadan mean 'hot, scorching heat' or does it signal the first signs of rain after the heat? Can someone clarify this with proofs? Not hunches or gut feelings.
In what source is the following expression and that it means a number between 3 and 10 days
Langue source
Dans quelle source trouve-t-on l?expression suivante et qu?elle signifie un nombre entre 3 et 10 jours :
أَيَّاماً مَّعْدُودَاتٍ
Salaam freeminders,
I would like to add my 5 cents to the discussion on Ramadhan from slightly different perspective.. through analysing the book of Exodus.. However you might be surprised how this analysis connects to your arguments...
I have opened a new theread as it brings new info and I wouldn't like to disrupt your discussion here. I would really appreciate your comments and feedback regarding it:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606402.0
Looking forward to hear from you
M.
So what is the Summer calculation for 2014?
Summer Solstice 2014 = Jun 21, 2014
So would ramadan be starting on the Following FULL moon 2014 = July 12, 2014 (11:25am Saturday)??
Peace!
Quote from: TheQuranAloneRevolution on April 28, 2014, 04:43:45 PM
So what is the Summer calculation for 2014?
Summer Solstice 2014 = Jun 21, 2014
So would ramadan be starting on the Following FULL moon 2014 = July 12, 2014 (11:25am Saturday)??
Yes, this would be the case.
What about having the fasting period count the new moon after the summer solstice? has anyone experimented with this idea?
I just saw that this thread has been going on for nearly 10 years now and just laughed my head off. :rotfl:
Peace to all.
Surely for those fasting at the start of the Summer Solstice, the date would be June 13?
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on May 19, 2014, 12:40:19 PM
Peace to all.
Surely for those fasting at the start of the Summer Solstice, the date would be June 13?
I am waiting reply for this as well :peace:
Peace,
according to my understanding, fasting will start on 13th June, and lasts for the next 10 days. Even if the full moon will be visible somehow on 12th in the morning, I believe that we are commanded to fast from the next day. It is because according to Quran and ancient Jewish calendar, day count starts not from the sunrise but from the nightfall and finishes at the sunset, and the day 2 is counted and so on..
So even if moon is observed at some pint during the day, the count should start from the nightfall, does that make sense to you?
Peace,
Those who advocate 10 days of fasting. What is your argument for this? I am researching on this myself and the whole thing is so vaguely interpreted in the recitation.
God bless you
Peace,
I have already given the full explanation of my position on that on this thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606402.0
My comparative analysis of Quranic verses and Torah Exodus shows absolute accordance and logic behind revelations of Torah and Quran and gave me instructions that fasting is for 10 days from the full moon after the summer solistice (which will start on 13 July this year).
Of course, this is my research and other people might have other ideas about ramadhan and fasting, but to me it was a striking Eureka moment when I realised that my analysis of the journey of Children of Israel from the land of Phiraun up to the moment they got to the Mountain where Moses received revelation comes to exactly the same conclusion as independent study by brother Ayman who focused purely on semantical analysis of Quranic verses on the subject of fasting and calendar!!! If you are looking for clear cut answers and obvious verses, then you might get disappointed. The whole ramadhan stuff falls into those unclear verses category and the only solution for you is to ponder on verses, ask critical questions and search for answers for yourself.
actually, I agree that the whole ramadhan and fasting issue is just as much ambiguous as the issue where the real Kaaba or even more. I spent really long hours and days and weeks searching and analysing things and I would reccommend you brother a lot of patience and really carefully reading this thread (at least first few dozens of pages lol) and the link I gave you as they deal with very detailed and really complicated matters that you or I never bothered before such as what is the true calendar system, intercelary month,its counting, dvelving on meaning of words such as shahr, nasi, ramadhan etc etd.
After all, what I think matters and God knows best is our intention. If someone came to conclusion after prayers for guidance and pondering on verses and critical and logical analysis that one should fast 3 days in September then let them do it. As long as people do sth based on their genuine intention to follow God and His command after making effort to search for answers then I believe that is fine. But it is not fine to follow others blindly just because they say so or because it's been like this for ages and it is considered as unquestionable truth even though it is illogical.
A Sunni woman told me today that she fasted yesterday because it was a mandatory "preparation fast". Have I missed something in the scripture?
Quote from: Existential1 on June 15, 2014, 11:16:52 PM
A Sunni woman told me today that she fasted yesterday because it was a mandatory "preparation fast". Have I missed something in the scripture?
As far as I know, it's not mandatory for Sunni, but more like special sunnah practice ---> "Fasting in Sha'ban".
http://www.newislamicdirections.com/nid/notes/fasting_during_shaban
http://askaquestionto.us/question-answer/shaban/the-significance-of-fasting-shaban
http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?id=1719&category=130
http://www.islamicity.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0409-2468
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/shaban.htm
http://www.dailyhadith.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=69.0
http://www.albalagh.net/general/shaban.shtml
http://www.sunnah.org/ibadaat/shaban/ghunya_shaban_frame.htm
http://salaf-us-saalih.com/2010/07/15/deeds-are-presented-to-allah-during-shaban-today-is-3rd-shabaan/
Quote from: JavaLatte on June 16, 2014, 01:01:51 AM
As far as I know, it's not mandatory for Sunni, but more like special sunnah practice ---> "Fasting in Sha'ban".
http://www.newislamicdirections.com/nid/notes/fasting_during_shaban
http://askaquestionto.us/question-answer/shaban/the-significance-of-fasting-shaban
http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?id=1719&category=130
http://www.islamicity.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0409-2468
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/shaban.htm
http://www.dailyhadith.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=69.0
http://www.albalagh.net/general/shaban.shtml
http://www.sunnah.org/ibadaat/shaban/ghunya_shaban_frame.htm
http://salaf-us-saalih.com/2010/07/15/deeds-are-presented-to-allah-during-shaban-today-is-3rd-shabaan/
Ok, thanks for all those links. So her stating that is was "mandatory" has more to do with her families/mosque values in complying with hadith.
She might think it was mandatory, because as per my experience, "common man" never reads the quran, but only hears and learns by word of mouth what to do and what not to do. People do recite the quran... or rather they imitate the sounds of the Arabic. Typically there is no comprehension what so ever of the text itself.
Quote from: Zulf on June 16, 2014, 09:02:40 AM
People do recite the quran... or rather they imitate the sounds of the Arabic. Typically there is no comprehension what so ever of the text itself.
That's why I learn in English before Arabic. But I really need to take a break from reading and just focus on learning Arabic :'(
Peace,
Such a long thread. :o
I read most of it and gave a brief summary here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg334061#msg334061
Some people might not know what the word "mandatory" means.
Peace and Greeting to all.
Forgive my ignorance in advance. Is ramadan part of the 4 sacred shahr? If so how do we understand this from al Qur'an?
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on March 20, 2015, 03:49:27 PM
Peace and Greeting to all.
Forgive my ignorance in advance. Is ramadan part of the 4 sacred shahr? If so how do we understand this from al Qur'an?
Salam,
Ramadan is not part of the 4 sacred months (shahr) for hajj because:
Ramadan is the month (shahr) of fasting (seyam ) 2:185. Therefore how can we observed 3 + 7 days fasting (seyam) 2:196 during hajj, if Ramadan is part of the months for hajj?
Rafasu (sexual pleasure between leagal partners) is allowed during the night of Ramadan 2:187. And it is not allowed to individuals performing the act of hajj 2:196.
What is the Summer timings for ramadan 2015?
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on May 22, 2015, 03:12:36 PM
What is the Summer timings for ramadan 2015?
The timings for
Ramadan is based on the count of
shahar but not seasons of a year
9:36
Various efforts were made to define
Ramadan literally as the time of summer but my observation is that verse 2:185 clearly defines what
Ramadan is. Contextually it defines
Ramadan as the
shahar when Quran descended, so you can keep adding 12
shahar to recount again and again as per 9:36 I believed there is nothing wrong with the traditional counting as the two counting systems lunar and solar were already in use
Remember companions of the cave please study this verse
18:9
At the end one group count 300 years for the youth stay in the cave while another group counted 309 years 18:25
For lunar (
shahar) counting method
10:5
For solar counting method
17:12
So if you don?t know the count ask those who keep record, you may refer to 23:113 for guidance please
Muslims who take islamic lunar year serious
loook up the sky to see the so-called ramadan crescent.
However, date of the ramadan crescent
in the sky is not the same as in the islamic lunar year.
Date of ramadan crescent
2015: 17 June (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2015&country=74)
..630: 17 June (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=630&country=74)
Convert 17 June 630 to islamic lunar year.
Result is 29 Safar 9 AH.
Not 1 Ramadan 9 AH.
Which date is the valid one?
Salam
Anything in the Quran is for our guidance and all that is required from us is to
1 Keep listening
2 Then Study carefully
3 Then Submit to or apply the concept
4 Then Wait or be patient for the result
5 And finally Enjoy the fruits of your work
The lunar and solar are two calendar systems approved in the Quran for reckoning of years and fractional portions of a year meaning detail information. Therefore both lunar and solar calendars are islamic!
For lunar (shahar) calendar system 10:5
The pronoun hu that suffix the word qaddara is referring only to the moon, the word manazila is referring to the stages or phases of the moon form beginning to the end. 36:39 contains additional information about the moon and its phases. The words aada and qadeem are the additional information, aada in the context means complete/return/end and qadeem means initial/old/early stage. Therefore aada ending is kal urjuun returning like qadeem beginning
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Lunar_libration_with_phase_Oct_2007_450px.gif/200px-Lunar_libration_with_phase_Oct_2007_450px.gif)
Moon phase?s link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_phase
2015 Moon Phases
The new moon at location X will be born at 02:24 on 16 of July 2015 and ends at 15:53 on 14 of August 2015 therefore the duration is 29days 13hours 29minutes
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html
How to observe Ramadan
If new moon is born before fajar that day should be observed and whenever a fasting is started then its completion is night 2:187
The 100% un-illuminated portion by an observer during the phases of the moon is always the beginning then followed by the illuminated in stages until it returns back as clearly explained in 36:39
Information worth pointing in verses 10:5 and 17:12 is the word hisab which is referring to the fractional information of any given year. If sanat is referring to the whole year then hisab is referring to additional months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, seconds etc.
Remember yawm al-hisab day of reckoning/mathematical computation of our deeds. The day when all records shall be displayed in numbers please note kitabun marqum in 83:9 & 83:20
Therefore the period of Ramadan is to be determining by computation, if computation is not accessible then by physical stages as both are acceptable in the Quran.
73:1-4 the command to measure night proportionately.
73:20 they were able to measure closely adna instead of exactly please note an lan tuhusuhu as a confirmation of their in-capability because they do not have the means/instruments/devices as we have today for accurate calculation of the hours of days and nights thus fataba alaykum meaning an option for measurement is granted
The following verses also supports that Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capability
2:286
7:42
23:62
For solar calendar system 17:12
In the Quran day and night are independent 17:12 but as a whole i.e. the 24 hours day starts after the sunset when the night begins and ends on the next sunset, please note the word waja?alna meaning And We set/made. Did you notice the sequence, the night 1st then the day the same as it happens in moon?s phases, the 0% of illumination then followed by the illuminated phases until it returns.
Calendar related links for further studies
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac06
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_calendar
Calendar conversion
This is another useful link for calendar conversion
https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
Quote from: bagyane on June 06, 2015, 12:38:31 PM
In the Quran day and night are independent 17:12 but as a whole i.e. the 24 hours day starts after the sunset when the night begins and ends on the next sunset, please note the word waja?alna meaning And We set/made. Did you notice the sequence, the night 1st then the day the same as it happens in moon?s phases, the 0% of illumination then followed by the illuminated phases until it returns.
Salaam,
Red: Please consider
36:40 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=40). A 24 hours day cannot start at sunset but at sunrise.
36:40 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=40)
لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ ۚ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: mmkhan on June 07, 2015, 07:27:57 AM
Salaam,
Red: Please consider 36:40 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=40). A 24 hours day cannot start at sunset but at sunrise.
36:40 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=40)
لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ ۚ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Salam
The phrase
وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ is tell us that the earth will never spin back because it is on computation and it must reach the computed period
Please study the word
ajalin musamma in 35:13
Quote from: bagyane on June 07, 2015, 08:08:39 AM
Salam
The phrase وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ is tell us that the earth will never spin back because it is on computation and it must reach the computed period
Please study the word ajalin musamma in 35:13
Salaam,
There is no mention of earth in that phrase nor in the aayat bro. That phrase talks about alLayl and alNahaar. And it clearly says that
the night does not overtake the day. That means, the night cannot come before the day. Simple as that.
The 24 hours day starts from alNahaar and not from alLayl. This is how I understand from this phrase.
And even 35:13 does not talk about earth. And yes there is a fixed ajal for their rotation/swimming for all mentioned in that aayat.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: mmkhan on June 07, 2015, 09:49:43 AM
Salaam,
There is no mention of earth in that phrase nor in the aayat bro. That phrase talks about alLayl and alNahaar. And it clearly says that the night does not overtake the day. That means, the night cannot come before the day. Simple as that.
The 24 hours day starts from alNahaar and not from alLayl. This is how I understand from this phrase.
And even 35:13 does not talk about earth. And yes there is a fixed ajal for their rotation/swimming for all mentioned in that aayat.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Salam
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Globespin.gif/220px-Globespin.gif)
That is how day and night is appearing on the earth by its rotation
Is that what you are denying?
The detailed information in the Quran is not only a literary work by its designer, rather it is an intellectual design for those who minded to reflect.
Therefore intellectual information of the Quran are laid/kept in the mind/brain of the intellectual/professionals. 29:49
That is why those who possessed knowledge before knowing the Quran quickly submit to the lord of the creations after they acknowledge it. 17:107
Quote from: bagyane on June 07, 2015, 11:50:10 AM
Salam
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Globespin.gif/220px-Globespin.gif)
That is how day and night is appearing on the earth by its rotation
Is that what you are denying?
The detailed information in the Quran is not only a literary work by its designer, rather it is an intellectual design for those who minded to reflect.
Therefore intellectual information of the Quran are laid/kept in the mind/brain of the intellectual/professionals. 29:49
That is why those who possessed knowledge before knowing the Quran quickly submit to the lord of the creations after they acknowledge it. 17:107
Salaam brother,
Did I deny anything? Please do not overlook my messages.
And I did not claim that I am an intellectual nor a professional, but I am just a Muslim to my Lord, Allah alone.
I understand that usage of words in alQuraan/alKitaab is very very precise and particularly used. We cannot replace them with other words. When Allah talks about alNahaar and alLayl you cannot change it with earth rotation or whatever. It is only about alNahaar and alLayl. If you don't like to agree with this, then there is no point in discussing it further.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Quote from: Existential1 on June 15, 2014, 11:16:52 PM
A Sunni woman told me today that she fasted yesterday because it was a mandatory "preparation fast". Have I missed something in the scripture?
I started fasting at the beginning of the month just to get a head start.
Salaam,
I was thinking, if Shahr means Full Moon and Ramadhaan means Hottest, then
Shahru Ramadhaan = Hottest Full Moon
What does this means? Please take a look at http://www.universetoday.com/19969/red-moon/
And also please note that the phrase فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ 2:185 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=185) is all about singular full moon. Even شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ is singular. So, does it mean when someone witnesses the single red/hottest full moon is the one day Ramadhaan?
http://www.space.com/15689-lunar-eclipses.html
If so, then what means أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ 2:184 (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=184)? Does this mean that hottest moon appears 3-9 times in a year? I got stuck here :-\
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
Salami,
Ayat 183 says that fasting has been prescribed to the believers like to those before. No mention of Ramadan.
Ayat 184 tells how who and what to fast. those before had to fast counted days.
Ayat 185 is a new mandate for the believers to fast the month of ramadhan.
This is my current humble understanding.
I usually try not to capitalize my writing. I wrote this reply from my pad.
Salaam,
The first full moon after the summer solstice is 2 Jul @ 03:19 am,
so I will be fasting 3 days from and including 2 Jul 2015, 3 and 4 July 2015,
(this is the best I can do in my circumstance having to take meds, and being hypoglycaemic),
to complete, it should be 10 days from 2 Jul 2015,
according to the full moon counting for the summer solstice worked out by Ayman.
Please Ayman confirm.
Layth's ijtihad worked out a Winter Solstice scenario, which I don't follow.
Nabil @inabster @menabster
Quote from: theNabster on June 17, 2015, 10:21:41 AM
Salaam,
The first full moon after the summer solstice is 2 Jul @ 03:19 am,
so I will be fasting 3 days from and including 2 Jul 2015, 3 and 4 July 2015,
(this is the best I can do in my circumstance having to take meds, and being hypoglycaemic),
to complete, it should be 10 days from 2 Jul 2015,
according to the full moon counting for the summer solstice worked out by Ayman.
Please Ayman confirm.
Layth's ijtihad worked out a Winter Solstice scenario, which I don't follow.
Nabil @inabster @menabster
I have been fasting since June 1 and I will continue until you stop maybe. When will you stop? I'll be covering all of the standard Ramadan, extra days before, and extra days after if yours is included.
I don't think the actual time is really relevant or important though if one is having difficulty figuring out when it is, just that one covers 30 days or so of a set period during what is generally considered Ramadan (or any other time) and fasts from before sunrise to after sunset, not eating or drinking during the period of the daylight, and potentially exercising as well to maintain the activity of the metabolism which might stagnate otherwise.
Peace,
@FreedomStands
the answer as to what I will do is in the post.
Peace Ayman,
I am starting to get more and more convinced that fasting in "shahr ramadan"/"scorching full moon" is for 3 days. To the naked eye, the moon one day before the full moon, the full moon, and the moon one day after the full moon have almost the same appearance and the difference is negligible. This would fit perfectly with "whoever of you witnesses the full moon shall fast IT" and "ayyaam ma3doodat"/"a few number of days" (2:184, 2:185), and will leave no ambiguity whatsoever.
For example, this year's fasting would have been for 3 days from July 1 (one day before the full moon) to July 3 (one day after the full moon). Those 3 moons would have appeared almost the same to the naked eye:
http://www.moonconnection.com/moon_phases_calendar.phtml
The percentage illumination for those 3 moons was almost the same:
http://www.moongiant.com/phase/07/01/2015
http://www.moongiant.com/phase/07/02/2015
http://www.moongiant.com/phase/07/03/2015
What is interesting is that 100% illumination occurred on July 1, one day before the full moon!
Your input will be appreciated.
Peace
Quote from: truthseeker11 on August 01, 2015, 08:16:50 PM
Peace Ayman,
I am starting to get more and more convinced that fasting in "shahr ramadan"/"scorching full moon" is for 3 days. To the naked eye, the moon one day before the full moon, the full moon, and the moon one day after the full moon have almost the same appearance and the difference is negligible. This would fit perfectly with "whoever of you witnesses the full moon shall fast IT" and "ayyaam ma3doodat"/"a few number of days" (2:184, 2:185), and will leave no ambiguity whatsoever.
Peace
truthseeker11
salam,
There is a fair of amount of reasonability behind your assertion, we do need to look more in this direction too, lets see it..
peace
siki
With regard to duration, there is also another angle that may help:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
QuoteWhen to end one's HaJJ?
A person undertaking HaJJ can hurry to 2 days but usually it is more than this [2:203]. The word "ma3doodat" [2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 12:20] typically indicates a low number, e.g. from 3-10 as it is often used for numbers which can be counted by one's fingers. A maximum of 10 days may also be indicated in 2:196 wherein it seems to make equivalent (in terms of giving) one who benefitted/enjoyed in a visit to the HaJJ and one who did HaJJ. The phrase "ten complete" in 2:196 is interesting as it is obvious 7+3=10, thus may be a clarifying instruction to reassure the instructed that since there is no fixed number 10 is considered complete/sufficient.
There is also a theoretical scenario wherein a visitor to the HaJJ enjoyed/benefitted (thus should undergo 3 days abstinence during HaJJ, and 7 upon return) but there is less than 3 days of HaJJ left thus cannot abstain 3 days during it. The guidance provided could indicate that one is to make it up to 10, e.g. if only one day left of HaJJ, abstinence that day, then 9 upon return. Please note that this scenario would be rare as it is unlikely someone would on purpose make such an important trip with so little time to enjoy or benefit from it, unless they were delayed unexpectedly enroute etc.
If the above information is coupled with 2:200, 22:29 and 22:34, it implies the individual determines when their obligation of HaJJ is complete - and that is once they have performed their obligatory act of devotion/servitude, i.e. slaughter an animal to share and feed those in need. That would explain why there is no fixed duration time explicitly stated in AQ. Interestingly most traditional commentators also regard one's personal HaJJ to end after this act.
Salam.
Since that time of the year is approaching, I thought I would throw out my views to help those looking for answers.
Ramadhan is NOT in the summer months. It is done at winter time when the night is longest and the day is shortest in the northern hemesphere.
The word Ramadhan does indeed mean scorching heat and was originally coined when it fell in the summer. However, we know from 9:37 that the Arabs had manipulated the count of the months and played havoc with God's system so as to circumvent the restricted months.
This is why Ramadhan was in the winter when the Quran was revealed as the prophet asked to be wrapped in a blanket (74:1) and why the Islamic history records the revelation as occurring in December.
The birth of Jesus at the end of summer when the dates rippen is proof that he was conceived in December during the night of destiny when the Angels and the Spirit decsend - same month the Quran was revealed.
Regards,
Quote from: Layth on May 18, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
Salam.
Salam
Interesting post!
Quote from: Layth on May 18, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
Since that time of the year is approaching, I thought I would throw out my views to help those looking for answers.
Great idea! I have been coincidentally thinking about the same topic lately.
Quote from: Layth on May 18, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
Ramadhan is NOT in the summer months. It is done at winter time when the night is longest and the day is shortest in the northern hemesphere.
I am not clearly understanding what you are suggesting.
Are you saying that we are currently observing Ramadhan in the wrong season?
Or are you simply saying that we associate the wrong season with Ramadhan?
The reason I ask is because the Quran tells us that with Allah the number of moths is 12 (9:36) by the ordinance of Allah for which the new moon is the marking of a new month(2:189). Lunar months are slightly shorter than the gregorian calendar's months. 355-56 days versus 365-66 days on average 11 less days. Following the ordinance of Allah for keeping count of time, seasons do not remain fixed to particular months but they gradually slide or shift. In this manner you could never claim that Ramadhan was in a particular month some day 1400 years ago unless you take in consideration this "sliding".
So I am not mistaken into thinking that you agree with this notion correct?
Quote from: Layth on May 18, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
The word Ramadhan does indeed mean scorching heat and was originally coined when it fell in the summer. However, we know from 9:37 that the Arabs had manipulated the count of the months and played havoc with God's system so as to circumvent the restricted months.
Indeed akin to the Gregorian calendar
Quote from: Layth on May 18, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
This is why Ramadhan was in the winter when the Quran was revealed as the prophet asked to be wrapped in a blanket (74:1) and why the Islamic history records the revelation as occurring in December.
I am not sure the "blanket" argument is too convincing about the seasonal condition at the time of revelation. Especially because the word blanket is never used. Also it seems it is possible that it could be an allegory for the cloak of prophethood or simply because he is being told to stand in the night, which is both expressed in 73:1 and 74:1, and we are all familiar with how cold nights can be in the desert.
Quote from: Layth on May 18, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
The birth of Jesus at the end of summer when the dates rippen is proof that he was conceived in December during the night of destiny when the Angels and the Spirit decsend - same month the Quran was revealed.
Maybe I am just not understanding but do you have actual Quranic evidence as to what season the first revelation of Quran was revealed?
Peace
Quote from: HP_TECH on May 18, 2016, 07:28:37 PM... Quran tells us that with Allah the number of moths is 12 (9:36) by the ordinance of Allah for which the new moon is the marking of a new month(2:189).
9:36 tells us that the
set of full moons is made up of 12 full moons at the least. That means that 11 does not make a set, it has to be 12 at the least. But sometimes the set has an extra full, making the number 13. The proof is for you to count the full moons between the two consecutive appearances ot the first full moon after the summer solstice.
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2016&country=74
01... 20 July 2016
02... 18 Aug
03... 16 Sept
04... 16 Oct
05... 14 Nov
06... 14 Dec
07... 12 Jan 2017
08... 11 Feb
09... 12 March
10... 11 Apr
11... 11 May
12... 09 June
However,
the previous
set had an extra full moon,
so it was made up of 13 full moons:
01... 02 July 2015
02... 31 July
03... 29 Aug
04... 28 Sept
05... 27 Oct
06... 26 Nov
07... 25 Dec
08... 24 Jan 2016
09... 22 Feb
10... 23 March
11... 22 Apr
12... 22 May
13... 20 June
You can place 13 full moons between the two consecutive appearances of a full moon,
but you cannot place 13 lunar months.
I guess I will reply to you while I await Layth's response.
Quote from: brook on May 20, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
9:36 tells us that the set of full moons is made up of 12 full moons at the least.
Do you have access to a Quran?
That is not what 9:36 says AT ALL...
9:36 إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ
9:36 Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
9:36 Indeed,
(the) number (of) the months with Allah (is) twelve months in (the) ordinance (of) Allah (from the) Day He created the heavens and the earth; of them, four (are) sacred. That (is) the religion the upright, so (do) not wrong therein yourselves. And fight the polytheists all together, as they fight you all together. And know that Allah (is) with the righteous.
Quote from: brook on May 20, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
That means that 11 does not make a set, it has to be 12 at the least. But sometimes the set has an extra full, making the number 13.
Where are you pulling out this jargon from?
Please DO NOT misinterpret Verses nor make up your own rules. The verse is clear.
Quote from: brook on May 20, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
The proof is for you to count the full moons between the two consecutive appearances ot the first full moon after the summer solstice.
There is no proof in what you say.
We do not count full moons.
We count crescent moons.
the summer solstice. Really ?? ???
There is no mention of moons in this verse nor
sets, which is why I asked the above question.
So again, excuse me but where do you read this "set", "13" business? DO NOT seek to twist the Message man.... :nope:
9:36 tells us there have been 12 months from day 0.
2:189 clarifies the new moons are indicators of periods for the people and for the hajj
2:189 يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْأَهِلَّةِ قُلْ هِيَ مَوَاقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَالْحَجِّ وَلَيْسَ الْبِرُّ بِأَن تَأْتُوا الْبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنِ اتَّقَىٰ وَأْتُوا الْبُيُوتَ مِنْ أَبْوَابِهَا وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ
2:189 Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji walaysa albirru bi-an ta/too albuyoota min thuhooriha walakinna albirra mani ittaqa wa/too albuyoota min abwabiha waittaqoo Allaha laAAallakum tuflihoona
2:189 They ask you about the new moons. Say, "They (are) indicators of periods for the people, and (for) the hajj And it is not [the] righteousness that you come (to) the houses from their backs, [and] but [the] righteous (is one) who fears (Allah). And come (to) the houses from their doors. And fear Allah so that you may (be) successful.
Quote from: brook on May 20, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2016&country=74
01... 20 July 2016
02... 18 Aug
03... 16 Sept
04... 16 Oct
05... 14 Nov
06... 14 Dec
07... 12 Jan 2017
08... 11 Feb
09... 12 March
10... 11 Apr
11... 11 May
12... 09 June
What is this set you talk about? And how do you pick such set? It seems arbitrary to me.
Why are you complicating the clearest instructions with jargon?
Just count 12 CRESCENT MOONS/NEW MOONS but not in the modern astrological understanding (which is when there is no moon). DO NOT count full moons. 36:39 Clearly explains that the moon RETURNS as the date stalk the old. Obviously describing a crescent moon.
crescent moon T-0
crescent moon T-1
crescent moon T-2
crescent moon T-3
crescent moon T-4
crescent moon T-5
crescent moon T-6
crescent moon T-7
crescent moon T-8
crescent moon T-9
crescent moon T-10
crescent moon T-11
crescent moon T-12Quote from: brook on May 20, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
However,
the previous set had an extra full moon,
so it was made up of 13 full moons:
01... 02 July 2015
02... 31 July
03... 29 Aug
04... 28 Sept
05... 27 Oct
06... 26 Nov
07... 25 Dec
08... 24 Jan 2016
09... 22 Feb
10... 23 March
11... 22 Apr
12... 22 May
13... 20 June
It seems like your numbering is off.
Whatever you start out with is T-0 (or T initial).
Quote from: brook on May 20, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
You can place 13 full moons between the two consecutive appearances of a full moon,
but you cannot place 13 lunar months.
I am not sure what you are concluding here.
If you start off with crescent T-0 and end with crescent T-12 you would have witnessed 12 lunar months and 13 crescent moons.
The crescent moon is an indicator not the actual month. In addition if you begin with witnessing a crescent moon that does not indicate you witnessed a month obviously. It indicates the initiation of the month in THAT case.
Salam,
QuoteI am not clearly understanding what you are suggesting.
Are you saying that we are currently observing Ramadhan in the wrong season?
Or are you simply saying that we associate the wrong season with Ramadhan?
Yes, that is indeed my point. Both the wildly spinning Sunni/Shia calendar which moves throughout the entire seasons as well as the literal "Ramadhan is the Summer" fasts are not correct.
QuoteThe reason I ask is because the Quran tells us that with Allah the number of moths is 12 (9:36) by the ordinance of Allah for which the new moon is the marking of a new month(2:189). Lunar months are slightly shorter than the gregorian calendar's months. 355-56 days versus 365-66 days on average 11 less days. Following the ordinance of Allah for keeping count of time, seasons do not remain fixed to particular months but they gradually slide or shift. In this manner you could never claim that Ramadhan was in a particular month some day 1400 years ago unless you take in consideration this "sliding".
So I am not mistaken into thinking that you agree with this notion correct?
The verses 9:36-37 need to be combined to get the proper picture.
9:36 is stating a simple fact, that the year in God's system is based on the 12 month principal (roughly 360 days). 9:37 then takes us to the intercalary (how to deal with the gap) and tells us that the Arabs had misused the system by using a "one year on, on year off" method which created a deliberate slippage in the months thus allowing them to circumvent the 4 restricted months.
QuoteMaybe I am just not understanding but do you have actual Quranic evidence as to what season the first revelation of Quran was revealed?
Yes, I do have the evidence. The logic is to look at the "night of decree" which is the night the Quran was revealed (97:1). The night of decree is a time when the angels and Spirit descend 97:4. The angels and Spirit descended on the night that Mary was told she was pregnant (19:17, 3:45). Jesus was conceived 9 months later at the time when dates ripen 19:25 (which is around August/September for the Mediterranean).
Working with these facts, we can determine with certainty that the Night of Decree occurred around the winter period (December?). The final peace of information we can look at is the fact that this is a "night" event (not day) when God sends His angels and Spirit to carry out specific tasks (97:1) and where His blessings are spread. The feature of December 21/22 is that it happens to be the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere which is a fitting feature of the blessings of our Lord being granted to their maximum capacity.
Quote from: HP_TECH on May 21, 2016, 02:15:54 AM
crescent moon T-0
crescent moon T-1
crescent moon T-2
crescent moon T-3
crescent moon T-4
crescent moon T-5
crescent moon T-6
crescent moon T-7
crescent moon T-8
crescent moon T-9
crescent moon T-10
crescent moon T-11
crescent moon T-12
It seems like your numbering is off.
Whatever you start out with is T-0 (or T initial).
What does T stand for,
does it stand for Time?
If it stands for the Time of a particular moon phase,
you have to count the appearances of only that particular moon phase
so that your counting will make sense.
You can choose
the very first phase after the New Moon
or you can choose the full moon.
It makes no difference so far as you stick to the same phase throughout the counting process.
If you are checking to see
how many times the first phase appears right after the NM
between its two consecutive appearances, that is during the time the earth turns around the sun once,
the number will be 12
but not always, sometimes it will be 13.
For example
the first NM after the summer solstice of 2016 is 04 July,
as a result the first waxing crescent is 05 July.
01... 05 July 206
02... 03 Aug
03... 02 Sept
04... 02 Oct
05... 31 Oct
06... 30 Nov
07... 30 Dec
08... 29 Jan 2017
09... 27 Feb
10... 29 March
11... 27 Apr
12... 26 May
Next عدة:
01... 25 June 2017
02... 24 July
03... 22 Aug
04... 21 Sept
05... 20 Oct
06... 19 Nov
07... 19 Dec
08... 18 Jan 2018
09... 17 Feb
10... 18 March
11... 17 Apr
12... 16 May
13... 14 June
To cut it short
شهر in 9:36 cannot be a lunar month (lasting 29.plus days)
because 13 lunar months make 383.plus days
and it is impossible to place 383.plus days in the عدد.
The شهر is FM or any other moon phase like it
as it is possible to place it 13 times in the عدد.
Quote from: Layth on May 21, 2016, 02:50:25 AM
9:36 is stating a simple fact, that the year in God's system is based on the 12 month principal (roughly 360 days).
No,
it does not state 12 shahr is a year- سنة,
it simply states that 12 shahr is the عدة:
عدة الشهور عند الله اثنا عشر شهراسنة is سنة,
عدة is عدة.
Let's stop
mixing them up
and claiming that it is God's ordinance.
Such a year which consists of 12 shahr is null and void,
it is so helpless that it cannot show you the seasons, in other words it has no sense of time.
A year without a sense of time is nothing but a joke.
You cannot make a year out of the
shahrs.
Quote from: Layth on May 21, 2016, 02:50:25 AM
Salam,
Yes, that is indeed my point. Both the wildly spinning Sunni/Shia calendar which moves throughout the entire seasons as well as the literal "Ramadhan is the Summer" fasts are not correct.
The verses 9:36-37 need to be combined to get the proper picture.
9:36 is stating a simple fact, that the year in God's system is based on the 12 month principal (roughly 360 days). 9:37 then takes us to the intercalary (how to deal with the gap) and tells us that the Arabs had misused the system by using a "one year on, on year off" method which created a deliberate slippage in the months thus allowing them to circumvent the 4 restricted months.
Yes, I do have the evidence. The logic is to look at the "night of decree" which is the night the Quran was revealed (97:1). The night of decree is a time when the angels and Spirit descend 97:4. The angels and Spirit descended on the night that Mary was told she was pregnant (19:17, 3:45). Jesus was conceived 9 months later at the time when dates ripen 19:25 (which is around August/September for the Mediterranean).
Working with these facts, we can determine with certainty that the Night of Decree occurred around the winter period (December?). The final peace of information we can look at is the fact that this is a "night" event (not day) when God sends His angels and Spirit to carry out specific tasks (97:1) and where His blessings are spread. The feature of December 21/22 is that it happens to be the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere which is a fitting feature of the blessings of our Lord being granted to their maximum capacity.
Peace bro
Interesting observations Layth.
Having said that, my only "beef" with your analysis is the associations of the seasons with the 12 shahrs.
The Gregorian calendar only attempts to wrap the year or cycle around seasons and utilizes pseudo lunar months 30-31 day months.
The problem with you and Brook's understanding is that you assume the year is a 365.5 day cycle.
You also both assume that the 12 months are supposed to encapsulate the seasons.
What I mean is that months are directly correlated with the seasons in the Gregorian calendar which you utilized. For example December is linked with Winter season, March with Spring, June-July with Summer and September with Fall.
The truth is that neither a 365.5 day cycle nor shahrs determined by seasons are indicated by the Quran.
Steadfastness in keeping number of the years and time is in observing the 12 shahrs and new moon phases regardless of changing seasons.
Adhering to the 12 shahrs cycle irrespectively of seasonal shifts will not cause issues such as gaps or postponing.
That's my current understanding, I believe that adhering to a calendar that compensates for seasons is similar to the postponing that the pagans were doing at the time of the prophet.
Unless someone can find evidence within Quran or root meaning that the shahrs are seasons or correlated with the seasons rather than the new moons as Quran clearly indicates, I doubt there is any valid argument to be made against the claim above.
Peace
Quote from: ayman on November 20, 2004, 10:56:18 AM
2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?
Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon.
There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.
However, one can indirectly verify the meaning. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the second half of the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only separators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly after 9:82, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending at that time and from 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended so that provides an additional link between "shahr ramadhan" and "al-shahr al-7aram". Hence, circumstantial evidence from the great reading supports that "al-shahr al-7aram"/"shahr ramadhan" is a hot time of the year and confirms the dictionary's meaning.
With this understanding, let's now complete the translation of 2:185 that we started above:
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
Now 2:185 contains the complete information that we need to know when to start the abstinence. It is the complete information irrespective of what calendar system each nation or group uses because it doesn't rely on any calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot.
Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal. In fact, not only will the full-moon seem bigger than normal, but the low-hanging full moon takes on an orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere. For the same reason that warning lights are orange, this orange hue creates a strong visual response, preserves the observer's night vision, and allows him/her to better see the shape and details of the moon than the normal white moon light (while driving, we all experienced how looking into white headlights degrades those abilities). Hence, the full-moon after the summer solstice is easier to witness. Moreover, because this orange moon appears while the days are longest, at the time of its appearance it is still daylight and it is still hot outside. All these signs are certainly not coincidental.
Now the next question to ask is about the year. Is the year in the great reading solar or lunar?
A few years ago i was driving in the Netherlands and i could not believe what i saw. It was a orange moon and it was very low, you could only see the half of the moon and it was very big, i have never seen such a thing, i always wondered how this was possible.
When is the ramadhan? Is it in June or after the summer? I do not understand this
According 2:185 it is when we witness the full moon, but as i understand most Muslims begin with fasting when they see the crescent moon
Quote from: belH on September 06, 2008, 03:47:18 PM
Salam;
Do you want an honst debate? if yes please note the following:
جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ
The Moon is what God is refering to when saying "Wa Kadarho Manazel Le-tarofo Addad elsineen wa-elhesab"
The words wa-Kdarho Manazel, which means Made its Stages only refers to Moon Stages.
وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩)
And the Moon― We have measured for it stages, till it returns like the old "3rgoon"(39)
The Sun does not have stages as the Moon; it is allways Full Sun.
Also, as I told you before, when calculating the Moon Cycle in order to know the Month and year, we should start from the begining of the Cycle (Waxing crescent) till the end of cycle (the other Waxing crescent).; as I would know that the wineing Crecsent is giving me hints the the Moon Cycle is about to end. But if I use it (the wineing Crescent) as a mark of the end of Month, then the month would be 20 days or less; and that will not agree with the verses that says the year has 12 month; nor with the verses that discribs the women period and its relation to one month.
Peace
After reading many posts i think at this moment ( it may change ) that the crescent moon is the start of ramadhan
peace TGO, all,
I read the original article and this entire thread a while ago and gave my thoughts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg333873#msg333873
Somewhat of a summary post here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg334061#msg334061
2:185
singular shahr
"...revealed in it...", "witnessed" and "abstain it"
2:217
singular shahr
"...fighting in it..."
Implication:
"in it" refers to the whole month/moon-cycle, whilst the combo of "witnessed al shahr" and "abstain it" refers to the full-moon onwards, which gives us upto 10 days. Could be of no significance but a possible fit.
Quote from: Wakas on June 09, 2016, 11:47:35 AM
peace TGO, all,
I read the original article and this entire thread a while ago and gave my thoughts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg333873#msg333873
Somewhat of a summary post here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg334061#msg334061
2:185
singular shahr
"...revealed in it...", "witnessed" and "abstain it"
2:217
singular shahr
"...fighting in it..."
Implication:
"in it" refers to the whole month/moon-cycle, whilst the combo of "witnessed al shahr" and "abstain it" refers to the full-moon onwards, which gives us upto 10 days. Could be of no significance but a possible fit.
Selam Wakas,
i have read your post and i see you believe the start of ramadan is with a full moon. Also the post is from 2013, did you research it more and do you have an other opinion now or is it the same. We agree that the thread is too long and that is why i started a new thread hoping some people have researched this issue more and that we without many discussion finally find a answer.
Peace
Quote from: Pazuzu on October 06, 2013, 10:13:05 AM
Peace Bachton..
I also debated this question for a very long time. This question of whether the fasting time begins with the Equinox of September or the Solstice of June. After many months of pondering, I have come to accept the Solstice theory (around June 21-23) as the most viable one. Let me explain to you why, very briefly:
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat, while "shahr" means "that which is the clear mark or announcement of something". The Arabs used to call the moon "shahr" when it became fat and neared fullness (because it became clear and apparent). Hence, "Shahr Ramadan" is that moon which annouces / makes clear the period of heat.
The reason why September was fitted into the equation is because the term "Ramdhiyy" was given to the rain when it fell upon the hot ground. They assumed that because we have rain mixing with hot earth, this must mean that we are in autumn. But this is only from the point of view of those who live in climates where the rain season happens to start in September. But this is not so in many areas of the world. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the rainy season is during March/April. That marks the end of the cold season there. It never rains there in September. (Those members who live in Saudi Arabia can confirm this). In many parts of Europe and North America, the rainy season is in summer, where the most savage of thunderstorms and torrential rain can be witnessed in June or July, when the earth is hot from the summer. So their Ramdhiyy comes in June.
As you can see, inserting rain into the picture will only serve to confuse matters. Simply stick to the original meaning of the root "Ra-Mim-Dad", which means "HEAT". And what better marker (shahr) we have to announce the begining of the heat season than the full moon of the summer Solstice, when the moon is exceptionally large over the horizon, and assumes a distinct orange hue?
Isn't this better than blindly following Sistani or the Mufti of Saudi Arabia, or Hassan Fadhlallah, and the other so-called "marja3s", who resort to their esoteric "calculations" and often reach contradicting results for no better reason than to spite each other and increase the sectarian division among their followers, to achieve their own worldly ends?
Now since the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil"), until it assumes the appearence of a thin, curved sheath, this means that if you count 10 days from the occurence of the super full moon of the Solstice, you arrive at the "hilal" (crescent), which marks the end of your fast.
So far, I think this is the most logical and convincing formula put forth.
Yes, there is clearly a period of restirction from hunting, which the Quran states is 4 "ashhur". Even if we translate this as 4 months, it would still contradict the mockery being practiced today in Makkah, where they put on their so-called "Ihram Dress" and abstain for a mere 4 or 5 days while they are conducting their rituals. Is this really the "ihram" mentioned in the Quran?
Although I am certain that Ramadhan comes in summer, I am inclined to believe - for now - that the period of Hajj may be the spring months which end immediately before Ramadan. Hence late February until the Solstice of June is the period when hunting game is prohibitted.
Thanks for your input.
TGO check this answer by bro Zuzu
I don't agree with everything but the Summer solstice argument makes sense.
Did you read this yet?
Also to Wakas,
what happened to brother Pazuzu all of a sudden he is merely a guest, was he banned or something?
He was not banned.
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 10, 2016, 03:19:33 AM
TGO check this answer by bro Zuzu
I think that is an unique and interesting nickname for Pazuzu.
I wonder what he would think about it. Reading it (that nickname) made me laugh a bit. ;D
Peace.
Quote from: JavaLatte on June 10, 2016, 12:15:34 PM
I think that is an unique and interesting nickname for Pazuzu.
I wonder what he would think about it. Reading it (that nickname) made me laugh a bit. ;D
Peace.
selam sister, can you explain to me, i want to laugh too ( what is zuzu and pazuzu ) peace
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 10, 2016, 03:19:33 AM
TGO check this answer by bro Zuzu
I don't agree with everything but the Summer solstice argument makes sense.
Did you read this yet?
Selam brother, thank you, i have read it now and i do not know what to think about it, i am making a summary in the thread i created and i will work it out from there.
About descending i am not sure, there are more meanings. About shahr i believe it means moon and not month, but even the month of ramadhan you can witness without the moon, that could be done when we start at the hottest month with fasting. What is the hottest month, is it July or June or maybe August?
About restriction the 4 months, if it is about hunting, than we have to have a look when do the animals give birth. The first day of ramadan i saw a new born dead baby bird that was fallen out of her nest, i believe this is guidance from God and that He shows me that ramadan is when the new moon comes and not full moon.
About summer solstice i do not believe that this can be right, because idol worshipers believe in this and Allah would not choose this as a start for a holy month. In the thread i created you can read about summer solstice, there are a few links there.
At this moment i can not conclude when ramadan month begins, but at this moment i think it is with the new moon. I think we should not say that everything that shia and sunni sects believe is a lie, ramadan can be something that is the same since the Quran came down.
Quote from: The Guided One on June 10, 2016, 05:14:54 PM
selam sister, can you explain to me, i want to laugh too ( what is zuzu and pazuzu ) peace
I don't really know how to explain it. :confused:
Perhaps I laughed because that nickname ("bro Zuzu") sounds more intimate/friendly and not daunting.
Have you ever seen his profile picture?
If you know Pazuzu's profile picture and read many of his posts, perhaps you could understand why it made me laugh.
I wish Pazuzu did not deactivate his account, but I don't have right to force him to stay here. My hope is that he lets his account/profile open for people to track (find) his posts easily.
In my view, Pazuzu is a very mysterious person, perhaps no member (or hardly any) on this forum who knows his true identity except himself - but, I suppose he has influenced many people through his works (posts/writings). I will always have respect toward him as a good brother, insha'Allah. Maybe one day he'll be back to (rejoin) this forum.
Peace.
Quote from: JavaLatte on June 10, 2016, 12:15:34 PM
I think that is an unique and interesting nickname for Pazuzu.
I wonder what he would think about it. Reading it (that nickname) made me laugh a bit. ;D
Peace.
;D
Quote from: The Guided One on June 10, 2016, 05:33:37 PM
About restriction the 4 months, if it is about hunting, than we have to have a look when do the animals give birth. The first day of ramadan i saw a new born dead baby bird that was fallen out of her nest, i believe this is guidance from God and that He shows me that ramadan is when the new moon comes and not full moon.
Are you sure Ramadhan is one of the sacred months?
I say this because I reason that the sacred months are a period for hajj and that in this period besides no hunting there is abstinence and fasting when we are in ihram for three days and after returning seven days. That is 10 complete days. This is indicative that fasting is not held continuously throughout the entire period of the sacred months nor for an entire month at that!
So if fasting is not issued for an entire shahr during the months of hajj then Ramadan cannot be one of them.
This is my reasoning brother
Quote from: The Guided One on June 10, 2016, 05:33:37 PM
About summer solstice i do not believe that this can be right, because idol worshipers believe in this and Allah would not choose this as a start for a holy month. In the thread i created you can read about summer solstice, there are a few links there.
Yes I will God willing check it out soon
Quote from: The Guided One on June 10, 2016, 05:33:37 PM
At this moment i can not conclude when ramadan month begins, but at this moment i think it is with the new moon. I think we should not say that everything that shia and sunni sects believe is a lie, ramadan can be something that is the same since the Quran came down.
By new moon, do you mean crescent moon?
(http://www.theragblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/waxing-crescent-moon-purple.jpg)
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 10, 2016, 09:32:29 PM
Are you sure Ramadhan is one of the sacred months?
I say this because I reason that the sacred months are a period for hajj and that in this period besides no hunting there is abstinence and fasting when we are in ihram for three days and after returning seven days. That is 10 complete days. This is indicative that fasting is not held continuously throughout the entire period of the sacred months nor for an entire month at that!
So if fasting is not issued for an entire shahr during the months of hajj then Ramadan cannot be one of them.
This is my reasoning brother
Yes I will God willing check it out soon
By new moon, do you mean crescent moon?
(http://www.theragblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/waxing-crescent-moon-purple.jpg)
yes i mean crescent moon
it all depends how you translate, witness the month-moon and fast in it-fast it. And do not come from behind in your houses but at the front, so clearly thiss tell us to begin the ramadan with crescent moon.
I will research it more, as soon i got more time
I don't know how much this will contribute to the discussion but here we go. I live in Southern California and June 19th was the first really day above body temperature reaching 107F. The temperature was intense and it was humid. While waiting outside I witnessed the full moon on its rise from the east looking bright and full. Coincidentally the next day as the first day of summer (summer solstice). Temperatures soared to 45 degrees Celsius (113 F).
It is as if the moon brought the heat with itself. I do not know perhaps it is a Sign for me.
2:185 shahru ramadana: The month/full moon of Ramadhaan :
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
I basically witnessed the scorching heat of the full moon (https://weather.com/weather/monthly/l/91325:4:US)/month
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 10, 2016, 09:32:29 PM
Yes I will God willing check it out soon
(http://www.theragblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/waxing-crescent-moon-purple.jpg)
The Summer Solstice begins when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of the zodiac sign Cancer. The Summer Solstice is one of the four major "Solar Festivals" of the year; the others being the Winter Solstice of December 21st, when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of Capricorn, and the other two being the Spring Equinox when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of Aries, and the Fall Equinox when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of Libra.
All of the Satanic [original Pagan] holidays have been corrupted and replaced with false and imposter biblical characters, fictitious legends, and practices completely unrelated to the original holidays. This was done by the Catholic Church for the sole purpose to remove all spirituality and occult knowledge.
That is why i believe summer and winter solstice are not part of Islam.
Quote from: The Guided One on June 22, 2016, 09:19:40 AM
The Summer Solstice begins when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of the zodiac sign Cancer. The Summer Solstice is one of the four major "Solar Festivals" of the year; the others being the Winter Solstice of December 21st, when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of Capricorn, and the other two being the Spring Equinox when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of Aries, and the Fall Equinox when the Sun enters into 0 degrees of Libra.
All of the Satanic [original Pagan] holidays have been corrupted and replaced with false and imposter biblical characters, fictitious legends, and practices completely unrelated to the original holidays. This was done by the Catholic Church for the sole purpose to remove all spirituality and occult knowledge.
That is why i believe summer and winter solstice are not part of Islam.
Salaam
I hear you but just because the wrongdoers make inventions about these periods and commit evil in it, does it really mean this period itself is evil?
Then does the fact that those void of knowledge go to Mecca to kiss the back stone, throw stones at rock idols of shaytan and drink miracle zam-zam water, make Mecca an evil place?
There are people that commit evil during hajj period and while they are in irham in Mecca wrong themselves, does this equally make the hajj period and Mecca the opposite of what we know them to be?
I would hope not. Therefore, perhaps looking at the wrongdoers is not helpful towards assessing what righteousness entails.
It may be after all that these periods of heat upsurge and seasonal change are correlated with Ramadhaan.
After all Allah Has subjected for us the moon and the sun each running for a term appointed that we may keep measurement of time. Perhaps these seasonal changes are more in congruence with the natural way of time-keeping established by God.
Let us keep searching and pondering.
Peace
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 23, 2016, 11:01:59 PM
Salaam
I hear you but just because the wrongdoers make inventions about these periods and commit evil in it, does it really mean this period itself is evil?
Then does the fact that those void of knowledge go to Mecca to kiss the back stone, throw stones at rock idols of shaytan and drink miracle zam-zam water, make Mecca an evil place?
There are people that commit evil during hajj period and while they are in irham in Mecca wrong themselves, does this equally make the hajj period and Mecca the opposite of what we know them to be?
I would hope not. Therefore, perhaps looking at the wrongdoers is not helpful towards assessing what righteousness entails.
It may be after all that these periods of heat upsurge and seasonal change are correlated with Ramadhaan.
After all Allah Has subjected for us the moon and the sun each running for a term appointed that we may keep measurement of time. Perhaps these seasonal changes are more in congruence with the natural way of time-keeping established by God.
Let us keep searching and pondering.
Peace
Selam,
Do we agree that the night of decree is a peaceful night?
If we do than 21-22 December never can be that night. So in this night satanic sacrifices happen and that is why it can not be the night of decree. I hope now you understand.
Peace
Allah's Tranquility does not fall upon everyone 48:26 (http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=48&verse=26#(48:26:12))
Only Allah's Tranquility falls upon the believers even in battle!
The disbelievers still had disdain in their hearts.
The same is possible for the Night of Decree, Salamun is a greeting, like that of the Angels to Ibrahim.
Perhaps alluding to Angels greeting the believers as they descend to carry out the commands of Our Lord.
Angels descend upon the BELIEVERS so wrongdoers wronging themselves would not affect this.
We can't say that because people are wronging themselves then this cannot be the period.
People are always wronging themselves.
Also I was referring to Summer Solstice not Winter because of shahr ramadana.
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 25, 2016, 12:54:33 AM
Angels descend upon the BELIEVERS so wrongdoers wronging themselves would not affect this.
We can't say that because people are wronging themselves then this cannot be the period.
People are always wronging themselves.
Yes. I totally agree with this.
I'm not saying mid December is the time we are looking for, but the things that disqualify mid December is
NOT that some people, some where, at some point in history, carries/carried out evil/destructive acts. Such acts happen 24/7/365 in this world.
Peace
Quote from: Zulf on June 25, 2016, 06:08:25 AM
I'm not saying mid December is the time we are looking for, but the things that disqualify mid December is NOT that some people, some where, at some point in history, carries/carried out evil/destructive acts. Such acts happen 24/7/365 in this world.
Peace
exactly...
the timing of gay bar is on every single night throughout europe till america... 24/7/365 lol
murder happen after every ten mintutes throghout the year... 24/7/365
lot of other things continue to happen including rape, robbery, theft and many more idol worship 24/7/365...
can you figure out one night in which nothing wrong happen throughout the world so that night we can qualify that night of decree.. unfortunately not...
peace
I'm from India and Eid here has been pushed to 7 July Indian time. However, UAE would be celebrating Eid tomorrow (6 July by Indian time). From what I've read, this is because UAE follows the Shafi interpretation, while the Indian subcontinent goes by the Hanafi interpretation. Both are Sunni belief systems.
I was quite confused and wanted a clearer answer based on the Koran. Google was my friend and I soon stumbled across Ayman's post, and it seems to make a lot of sense to me. I also happened to stumble across this article http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/summer-solstice-full-moon-1.3640759 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/summer-solstice-full-moon-1.3640759).
It says,
That's because the summer solstice is technically the moment when the Earth's northern axis of rotation is most tilted toward the sun, and that happens every 365? days, and our calendar is just 365 days (with a leap year every four years) so the alignment between the two events varies, says Paul Mortfield, chair of the David Dunlap Observatory in Richmond Hill, Ont.
Another interesting point which seems to confirm Ayman's interpretation is that the word "shahr" (meaning month or full moon) occurs exactly 12 times in the Koran, and the word day occurs exactly 365 days. No numerology here.
From what I've read so far, the meaning of shahr as "full moon" and Ramadan as "full moon of scorching heat/summer solstice" seems to be quite convincing and simple. The full-moon around the summer solstice also happens to be the one that's easiest to witness for anyone than any other moon observation.
Nevertheless, I will add that this is my understanding after a brief research. I do not claim that my understanding is the best or the most accurate. The moment we do this, we create differences. You are my brother/sister in faith, despite our differences in opinion, because we we're all trying to seek God through reason and questioning. Please feel free to add your opinions.
God alone knows best.
Peace.
This article corroborates the fact that the summer solstice full moon appears bigger than any other full moon due to an illusion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/01/the-moon-illusion-why-our-lunar-satellite-appears-larger-when-lo/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/01/the-moon-illusion-why-our-lunar-satellite-appears-larger-when-lo/)
Quote from: imrankhawaja on June 25, 2016, 06:45:04 PM
exactly...
the timing of gay bar is on every single night throughout europe till america... 24/7/365 lol
murder happen after every ten mintutes throghout the year... 24/7/365
lot of other things continue to happen including rape, robbery, theft and many more idol worship 24/7/365...
can you figure out one night in which nothing wrong happen throughout the world so that night we can qualify that night of decree.. unfortunately not...
peace
So you do not believe Allahs words that Muslims are safe in that night, you do not believe that such a night exists? That is what you are telling with your post and i want to explain that Muslims are safe on that night, what others do in gaybars is not of our concern. I believe that the night of decree is a safe night and that Angels protect Muslims, as Allah says. I do not believe that satanic rituals on 21.22 December can be that night, because satanic rituals happen. But maybe it is and that is the reason that Allah sends Angels to protect us, but than we have other satanic rituals, also on 21 december and if we say that this the reason for angels coming down, than they would come also down on this other satanic dates. So i do not think that it has to with the satanic ritauls, or else there would have been 10 or more nights of decree
Quote from: bookish on July 05, 2016, 02:10:55 PM
This article corroborates the fact that the summer solstice full moon appears bigger than any other full moon due to an illusion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/01/the-moon-illusion-why-our-lunar-satellite-appears-larger-when-lo/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/01/the-moon-illusion-why-our-lunar-satellite-appears-larger-when-lo/)
This might be a good explanation, i will look into it
Quote from: bookish on July 05, 2016, 01:26:55 PM
I'm from India and Eid here has been pushed to 7 July Indian time. However, UAE would be celebrating Eid tomorrow (6 July by Indian time). From what I've read, this is because UAE follows the Shafi interpretation, while the Indian subcontinent goes by the Hanafi interpretation. Both are Sunni belief systems.
I was quite confused and wanted a clearer answer based on the Koran. Google was my friend and I soon stumbled across Ayman's post, and it seems to make a lot of sense to me. I also happened to stumble across this article http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/summer-solstice-full-moon-1.3640759 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/summer-solstice-full-moon-1.3640759).
It says,
That's because the summer solstice is technically the moment when the Earth's northern axis of rotation is most tilted toward the sun, and that happens every 365? days, and our calendar is just 365 days (with a leap year every four years) so the alignment between the two events varies, says Paul Mortfield, chair of the David Dunlap Observatory in Richmond Hill, Ont.
Another interesting point which seems to confirm Ayman's interpretation is that the word "shahr" (meaning month or full moon) occurs exactly 12 times in the Koran, and the word day occurs exactly 365 days. No numerology here.
From what I've read so far, the meaning of shahr as "full moon" and Ramadan as "full moon of scorching heat/summer solstice" seems to be quite convincing and simple. The full-moon around the summer solstice also happens to be the one that's easiest to witness for anyone than any other moon observation.
Nevertheless, I will add that this is my understanding after a brief research. I do not claim that my understanding is the best or the most accurate. The moment we do this, we create differences. You are my brother/sister in faith, despite our differences in opinion, because we we're all trying to seek God through reason and questioning. Please feel free to add your opinions.
God alone knows best.
Peace.
Peace nothing against you brother but....
....You will never ever arrive at the truth by mixing it in with the falsehood.
The earth does not rotate around the sun and it is not a spinning globe.
It is a dome enclosed stationary plane as Allah has created it. There is overwhelming evidence in Scripture(Torah, Old Testament, Psalms, Gospel, and Quran) and evidence in Scientific history( Samuel Rowbotham, George Sagnac, Nikola Tesla, Michelson and Morrey) and contemporary efforts( Me and 1000's of amateur star gazers, scientists) which have demonstrated through real experiments the earth is neither spherical or in motion.
Dear brother, you will be misled if you conjunct the falsehood with the truth
Quote from: bookish on July 05, 2016, 02:10:55 PM
This article corroborates the fact that the summer solstice full moon appears bigger than any other full moon due to an illusion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/01/the-moon-illusion-why-our-lunar-satellite-appears-larger-when-lo/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/01/the-moon-illusion-why-our-lunar-satellite-appears-larger-when-lo/)
I would not call it illusion/magic, that is what the disbelievers say in the Quran about the Signs of Allah 54:1-4 (http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=54&verse=2#(54:2:6)). It is instead a wonderful creation of Allah hence a Sign/Miracle to serve as a reminder of the Awesomeness of The Creator. Glory be to Him!
If you pay attention however to your own link they claim this:
"The Moon illusion
During the summer months, the full Moon also shares this part of the sky and its proximity to the horizon can play visual tricks thanks to the ?Moon illusion?.
This makes a rising full Moon seem much larger than it actually is. There are many theories that attempt to explain this. One suggests we interpret
the sky as a flattened dome."
Zulf I hope you now see the importance of not being deceived by modern anti-god science
However I do agree that the mechanism responsible for changing the trajectory (elliptical path) of the moon and sun around what we know as Summer Solstice might be correlated with Ramadhan but again if we assume a ball earth spinning around the sun, then we are being deceived by the deceiver about the life of the world and Our Creator. The FE model which is congruent with Allah's Words is more befitting to answer the question of the timing of Ramadhan that's all I am saying.
Peace
Nice Hp Tech. i have created a thread do we believe Allah or scientists and NASA and most people who post there do not believe in a flat earth, even if Quran says that Allah spread the earth like a carpet,there is not any mention of a round world in Quran and other scriptures say the same story. I am very happy we share the same view.
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 05:43:13 AM
Nice Hp Tech. i have created a thread do we believe Allah or scientists and NASA and most people who post there do not believe in a flat earth, even if Quran says that Allah spread the earth like a carpet,there is not any mention of a round world in Quran and other scriptures say the same story. I am very happy we share the same view.
RED: There is no mention of flat/carpet/cubic/globe/cylindrical/pyramid/whatever shape in the quran about the shape of earth.
Quote from: Bender on July 08, 2016, 05:50:49 AM
RED: There is no mention of flat/carpet/cubic/globe/cylindrical/pyramid/whatever shape in the quran about the shape of earth.
As devout Muslims, we have good reason to conclude the Earth is flat; the Qur'anic verses 15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30, 88:20 and 91:6 all clearly state this and not a single verse in the Qur'an hint to a spherical earth.
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 05:43:13 AM
Nice Hp Tech. i have created a thread do we believe Allah or scientists and NASA and most people who post there do not believe in a flat earth, even if Quran says that Allah spread the earth like a carpet,there is not any mention of a round world in Quran and other scriptures say the same story. I am very happy we share the same view.
By the way, if you still insist to continue your thread that discuss about FE, I suggest you to have two way discussion with HP_TECH about this issue, perhaps you both could use PM.
I think this young brother (HP_TECH) is a real/sincere scientist, and I hope you both could have good mutual discussion.
Peace.
Quote from: JavaLatte on July 08, 2016, 06:42:18 AM
By the way, if you still insist to continue your thread that discuss about FE, I suggest you to have two way discussion with HP_TECH about this issue, perhaps you both could use PM.
I think this young brother (HP_TECH) is a real/sincere scientist, and I hope you both could have good mutual discussion.
Peace.
Selam,he was talking to bookish, and i do not have to discuss this with him, we share the same view. Peace
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 07:04:10 AM
Selam,he was talking to bookish, and i do not have to discuss this with him, we share the same view. Peace
But in my opinion, you were rather 'careless' in sharing the information about FE. I think it is good to be careful (e.g. study it carefully first) and selective if you want to share information about FE on this forum.
Don't you know that there are FE shills?
Peace.
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 06:27:14 AM
As devout Muslims, we have good reason to conclude the Earth is flat; the Qur'anic verses 15:19, 20:53, 43:10, 50:7, 51:48, 71:19, 78:6, 79:30, 88:20 and 91:6 all clearly state this and not a single verse in the Qur'an hint to a spherical earth.
Indeed!
Quote from: JavaLatte on July 08, 2016, 07:13:08 AM
But in my opinion, you were rather 'careless' in sharing the information about FE. I think it is good to be careful (e.g. study it carefully first) and selective if you want to share information about FE on this forum.
Don't you know that there are FE shills?
Peace.
You know that people for many years believed in a flat earth and those people knew more about nature and astronomy than we know now. In the thread i created who do you believe Nasa and scientists or God, because i wanted to see how people use their brains and to show me what they think about this. Now i have seen many explanations, but is there any proof for what they claim? Is gravity proven? Rotation of the earth? The size of the sun and moon? And many other things that NASA says are true? I believe that NASA lies and if they say that the earth is round,than the earth might be flat.
The astronauts of the Apollo can not swear on the bible that they have been to the moon. Many people lie in a court and do not see that as a big sin, but these man even not in court will not swear on the bible. This means that they know the truth and that they know that there is a creator, a God, The God. One of the funniest things is when the journalist asks a astronaut who says to have been thru the van allen belt: ' how did you penetrate the Van Allen belt and he answers: We did not know about the van Allen belt, they were not discovered yet.
Mr Bean's Belts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2FTZhyuJy8
Now for the pictures of the earth, are they true? No they are not
What i think is best proof that NASA lies are the pictures from NASA that shows the continents sometimes larger and sometimes smaller. Go on their website and watch a picture freom 1978 and one from 2012.
The Man Who Saw The Flat Earth: Auguste Piccard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIFYiHGqshc&index=10&list=LLvAcGp9QKvlW5BgXjawaxwQ
A fish eye lens is one of the tricks they use to show you curvature
Fish-eye lenses create images with absurd curvature! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnHTV4L0mA8
Now why would they use this tricks if the earth was round?Astronauts get snorkels for spacewalks, so are they in space or maybe in a pool?
So i am not careless. I have given many more proof that we are being lied to, but many just come and defend their theories about a round earth without even watching one of the videos i have linked. This says it all.
I have studied the lies and i have given proof and i also have said that other scriptures also say that the earth is flat. Why do we think that we are smarter than all other people who lived many thousands years ago? Because we have scientists? And we have TV? Actually i think that we are the most stupid people ever lived on this planet and that we believe many things that can not be true.
Why is there an arctic treaty?
Do you know what a zero g plane is?
In my opinion if you want to say something about me or my research, you should first go and research your self and than make statements that i am careless in shearing information.
Peace
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
So i am not careless. I have given many more proof that we are being lied to, but many just come and defend their theories about a round earth without even watching one of the videos i have linked. This says it all.
hmm i think, u did not still sure about the science behind
theory and
proven fact...
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
I have studied the lies and i have given proof and i also have said that other scriptures also say that the earth is flat. Why do we think that we are smarter than all other people who lived many thousands years ago? Because we have scientists? And we have TV? Actually i think that we are the most stupid people ever lived on this planet and that we believe many things that can not be true.
hmm so all people are indeed studpid because earth is flat , and experiments are going in the favor of spherical..
excellent i wonder the stupid most people invented things which are condsider magical for the perosn who lived onn this planet 200 years ago... i m sure if suddenly he see the achievements of this stupid person or scientist he will think he is another world...
so the world is changed by stupids , really this information open up my mind and eyes...
we must beleive earth is flat forget about proven fact , what if quran is saying 2+2= 5 but scientist are saying no its four , we need to reject scientist.. otherwise we are stupid... but i get connfuse here becoz quran never say 2+2= 5 ... some people are confused about 4 and 5.. its not qurans fault...
peace
Quote from: imrankhawaja on July 08, 2016, 08:27:43 AM
hmm i think, u did not still sure about the science behind theory and proven fact...
hmm so all people are indeed studpid because earth is flat , and experiments are going in the favor of spherical..
excellent i wonder the stupid most people invented things which are condsider magical for the perosn who lived onn this planet 200 years ago... i m sure if suddenly he see the achievements of this stupid person or scientist he will think he is another world...
so the world is changed by stupids , really this information open up my mind and eyes...
we must beleive earth is flat forget about proven fact , what if quran is saying 2+2= 5 but scientist are saying no its four , we need to reject scientist.. otherwise we are stupid... but i get connfuse here becoz quran never say 2+2= 5 ... some people are confused about 4 and 5.. its not qurans fault...
peace
For someone who lives in England, you English grammar is very bad, so maybe you should go back to school and first learn English, than learn to read and response with proof and not only a few words that are not a fact nor a proof, but only your own opinion. Also again you should learn to read and i said this many times to you, i said that we are stupid for believing in our schooling system and the tv and scientists and NASA and that we should investigate and than we would know what is real and what not.
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
In my opinion if you want to say something about me or my research, you should first go and research your self and than make statements that i am careless in shearing information.
I'm sorry if I made wrong opinion about you. Perhaps I should not use the world 'careless'.
I think you started that thread with a good question (the title of that thread). But, then you brought this:
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 06:29:51 AM
The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished." - Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia
I don't understand why you did that. I think it is not a good idea to put something like that to back up FE. We should not threaten people to believe FE.
Peace.
Quote from: The Guided One on July 08, 2016, 08:38:21 AM
For someone who lives in England, you English grammar is very bad, so maybe you should go back to school and first learn English, than learn to read and response with proof and not only a few words that are not a fact nor a proof, but only your own opinion. Also again you should learn to read and i said this many times to you,
you know when some body use these type pf words instead of giving their proofs and reasonings its mean they are so much frustrated and personal attacks means person is so much afraid by other side and may b have a lot of grudge against other person,, (i can understand what you feel about me) but its a place to share views.. people like you when they have nothing to prove in the end they mock on eachother and do personal attacks..which i dnt really care . :peace:
look at the sentence in bold here is a spelling mistake and grammer mistake , but i did not bother about it ... niether i will use this as a proof to proving your flat earth theory flase.. :yeah:
because simply i dnt need to ... only the players who lose the game mock on winners that what you are doing ...
you neeed to look at my posts again becoz i just arrise some very logical questions..
FE can be discussed in designated threads.
Here we should focus on Ramadhan.
Peace all
Quote from: Zulf on July 08, 2016, 02:03:29 PM
FE can be discussed in designated threads.
Here we should focus on Ramadhan.
Peace all
exactly
Salam everyone.
I agree - let's limit the discussion to Ramadan. I wasn't even aware that some of us here believe that the earth is flat. Nevertheless, I respect your conclusion, and I cannot agree or disagree with you because I'm yet to do any thorough research in this area. I do understand that you have come to this conclusion after an analysis of some evidence. When time permits, I'd love to do some personal study before I can share my opinion. It's definitely something very interesting, because we take it for granted now that the earth is round and it's going round the sun. This is what I also believe in, but I'm open to questioning my beliefs. The biggest mistake we can make is to label something outright as "right" or "wrong", without any study or analysis. That's what most people I come across do.
He doesn't pray 5 times a day? Oh he's not a Muslim!
He follows only the Koran? Oh he's a crazy guy!
I believe most of us can share at least one instance where someone has labelled us as "ignorant".
Peace....
Quote from: bookish on July 09, 2016, 12:59:54 PM
Salam everyone.
I agree - let's limit the discussion to Ramadan. I wasn't even aware that some of us here believe that the earth is flat. Nevertheless, I respect your conclusion, and I cannot agree or disagree with you because I'm yet to do any thorough research in this area. I do understand that you have come to this conclusion after an analysis of some evidence. When time permits, I'd love to do some personal study before I can share my opinion. It's definitely something very interesting, because we take it for granted now that the earth is round and it's going round the sun. This is what I also believe in, but I'm open to questioning my beliefs. The biggest mistake we can make is to label something outright as "right" or "wrong", without any study or analysis. That's what most people I come across do.
He doesn't pray 5 times a day? Oh he's not a Muslim!
He follows only the Koran? Oh he's a crazy guy!
I believe most of us can share at least one instance where someone has labelled us as "ignorant".
Peace....
Wow you see Zulf this is the response of a believer! This is what Allah created us for!
Quote from: HP_TECH on July 09, 2016, 06:54:42 PM
Wow you see Zulf this is the response of a believer! This is what Allah created us for!
Allah created us to question our beliefs?
Quote from: Comrox on July 09, 2016, 06:57:46 PM
Allah created us to question our beliefs?
Peace, i am a fan of descartes reasoning, and i believe it is in parts similar to what God tells us in the quran, which is to verify everything for ourselves.. the basis of which descartes logic was:
Accept as true only what is indubitable.
I am also a fan of other philosophy, including simply reflecting on the creation of God, i trust He also encourages this in the quran
peace.
But yes, i would say question your beliefs, as we can easily be in error without realizing it. i dont think we should ever become content with our beliefs, untill the point at which we have become 100% sure of everything we think to be true, there are some things i know as a fact, and trust are true, such as that God is my lord, my soul has borne witness to this fact, and i know it is true, hence i do not need to question it.
I am not advocating doubt, i am simply advocating verification, and asking God to confirm things for us that we are unsure about, and purify us of things we are sure about which are not true
Quote from: Timotheus on July 09, 2016, 07:18:28 PM
But yes, i would say question your beliefs, as we can easily be in error without realizing it. i dont think we should ever become content with our beliefs, untill the point at which we have become 100% sure of everything we think to be true, there are some things i know as a fact, and trust are true, such as that God is my lord, my soul has borne witness to this fact, and i know it is true, hence i do not need to question it.
I am not advocating doubt, i am simply advocating verification, and asking God to confirm things for us that we are unsure about, and purify us of things we are sure about which are not true
I agree, I'm still not sure God created us for that purpose though, given our purpose seems to be clearly enough stated in 51:56.
Anways, I'm sorry... :offtopic:
Quote from: Comrox on July 09, 2016, 09:35:45 PM
I agree, I'm still not sure God created us for that purpose though, given our purpose seems to be clearly enough stated in 51:56.
Anways, I'm sorry... :offtopic:
Peace,
Yes to worship our lord, part of which is to purify ourselves.
purifying ourselves from falsehood by questioning what we think, believe etc is one way of doing this..
life is off topic anyway, its called the natural flow of conversation :)
peace
Quote from: Comrox on July 09, 2016, 06:57:46 PM
Allah created us to question our beliefs?
No I said the following
Quote from: HP_TECH on July 09, 2016, 06:54:42 PM
Wow you see Zulf this is the response of a believer! This is what Allah created us for!
As a response to bookish humbly deciding to not deem our interpretation wrong without having thoroughly verified himself. Unfortunately many folks including people in this forum lack this blessing from God.
Instead they jump in defense of the paradigm they have been indoctrinated to without verification.
So bookish example is the apparent Favor of Allah upon Him and upon every believer whom He grants patience, determination, reason and understanding.
It is a Sign of His Mercy upon believers like bookish. And for that Allah has created them.
Is your question genuine?
The Quran, how do you read it?
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=11&verse=119#(11:119:1)
11:118 And if your Lord (had) willed surely He (could) have made the mankind one community, but not they will cease to differ.
11:119
Except (on) whom your Lord has bestowed Mercy, and for that He created them. And will be fulfilled (the) Word of your Lord, "Surely I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the men all together."
Those in whose breast lies the Quran knew what I was saying Comrox
Hi.
I read the first few pages of the discussion and am not satisfied with Ayman's explanations. I'm sorry if these questions have already been answered; I won't be able to read hundreds of pages. 1) Hottest days of summer fluctuates. It's sometimes before summer solstice, and sometimes far after the solstice, like in the latter days of august. So "Ramad=hottest" equation fails. 2) Can you tell which one of the following phases are full moon an which ones are crescent? There's no diving line between phases. It's all continuous. So noone can count exactly 10 days by observing phases. You can count the first 7-8 days (new moon), following 14-16 days (after the line of illumination got past half-mark), and the following 7-8 days (after the line of illumination got past half-mark, diminishing to crescent) though. So, I can't see how one can count 10 days looking at the moon. I'd appreciate any help, thanks.
"Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 29:14 where both are used"
3am means season so Noah stayed with his people one thousand years, less fifty seasons
Quote from: Ffddar on June 24, 2017, 03:13:13 AM
"Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 29:14 where both are used"
3am means season so Noah stayed with his people one thousand years, less fifty seasons
In Lughat-ul-Quran, Parvez writes that al-sana(t) is called a year of hardship/famine and al-aam a year of greenery and abundance. So may be 29:14 is saying that Noah mostly had hardship except for a little time of ease.
Some say SAVM should be observed for 10 days. They remind Moses's 10 days to support this but I don't see how it's related to SAVM. Look at this picture showing moon phases. Can you count 10 days here? I could count two periods of 7-8 days, where it goes from new moon to half moon, and then half moon to new moon. Maybe I could count 14-16 days half moon to half moon. But how can one count ten days? Can you even tell exactly which one(s) of these is/are full moon? Very subjective.
(https://journeytothestars.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/lunar-phases-1-copy.jpg?w=2000&h=)
At-Taubah 36:
Number of the shahrs with God is twelve shahrs
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا
We had better start
with what shahr is.
Shahr is full moon in the Quran
or rather full moon night such as لَيْلَةِ الْقَدْرِ .
Proof is that
in one solar year
sometimes there are 12 shahrs,
sometimes 13.
For instance
in 2017 there are 12 shahrs (https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2017&country=74),
in 2018 there are 13 shahrs (https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2018&country=74).
If shahr meant 29.5-day long lunar month
13 months would add up to 383.5 days
and 383.5 days would not find enough room in the 365-day long solar year.
But there surely is enough room for 13 shahrs in 2018
because shahr is full moon time, that is only 1 night.
So whoever from you witness the hot fool moon, shall fast it
فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
You shall fast the hot full moon after you witness it,
that is after July 8 of 2017 (https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2017/july)
and after June 28 of 2018.
Quote from: brook on July 24, 2017, 02:42:32 AM
At-Taubah 36:
Number of the shahrs with God is twelve shahrs
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا
We had better start
with what shahr is.
Shahr is full moon in the Quran
or rather full moon night such as لَيْلَةِ الْقَدْرِ .
Proof is that
in one solar year
sometimes there are 12 shahrs,
sometimes 13.
For instance
in 2017 there are 12 shahrs (https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2017&country=74),
in 2018 there are 13 shahrs (https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2018&country=74).
If shahr meant 29.5-day long lunar month
13 months would add up to 383.5 days
and 383.5 days would not find enough room in the 365-day long solar year.
But there surely is enough room for 13 shahrs in 2018
because shahr is full moon time, that is only 1 night.
So whoever from you witness the hot fool moon, shall fast it
فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
You shall fast the hot full moon after you witness it,
that is after July 8 of 2017 (https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2017/july)
and after June 28 of 2018.
Why do people try to arbitrarily fit shahrs in solar year? Who said the year had 365 days?
Quote from: HP_TECH on June 22, 2016, 01:28:16 AM
I don't know how much this will contribute to the discussion but here we go. I live in Southern California and June 19th was the first really day above body temperature reaching 107F. The temperature was intense and it was humid. While waiting outside I witnessed the full moon on its rise from the east looking bright and full. Coincidentally the next day as the first day of summer (summer solstice). Temperatures soared to 45 degrees Celsius (113 F).
It is as if the moon brought the heat with itself. I do not know perhaps it is a Sign for me.
2:185 shahru ramadana: The month/full moon of Ramadhaan :
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
I basically witnessed the scorching heat of the full moon (https://weather.com/weather/monthly/l/91325:4:US)/month
Cool!
Quote from: Novice on June 24, 2017, 05:03:56 PM
In Lughat-ul-Quran, Parvez writes that al-sana(t) is called a year of hardship/famine and al-aam a year of greenery and abundance. So may be 29:14 is saying that Noah mostly had hardship except for a little time of ease.
Peace, cannot have 1,000 years of hardship (perhaps in hell/one's head) likewise three separate words/meanings ...
18:25 ولبثوا and stay they of فى in كهفهم cave theirs ثلث three ماىه hundred
سنىن sinīna/years (lunar) وازدادوا and increases they of تسعا nine of (i.e. those asking the questions add a 9) 18:26 قل say الله the god اعلم knows بما in what لبثوا stay they of له for him غىب unseen السماوت the heavens والارض and the land ابصر sees به in it واسمع and hears ما not لهم for them من from دونه besides him من from ولى guardian ولا and not ىشرك associate فى in حكمه wisdom his احدا anyone of
(https://s4.postimg.org/93cbe12ml/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch18v22-v28.jpg)
29:14 ولقد and surely ارسلنا sends we of نوحا Noah of الى to قومه folk his فلبث so stay فىهم in them الف thousand سنه sanatin (period of time) الا except خمسىن fifty عاما Aama/year of (solar) فاخذهم so seizes them الطوفان the deluge وهم and they ظلمون were unjustly
(https://s4.postimg.org/v18s7thn1/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch29v10-v18.jpg)
Pease
Sorry I missed this post earlier.
Quote from: Noon waalqalami on August 19, 2017, 04:33:45 PM
Peace, cannot have 1,000 years of hardship (perhaps in hell/one's head) likewise three separate words/meanings ...
18:25 ولبثوا and stay they of فى in كهفهم cave theirs ثلث three ماىه hundred سنىن sinīna/years (lunar) وازدادوا and increases they of تسعا nine of (i.e. those asking the questions add a 9) 18:26 قل say الله the god اعلم knows بما in what لبثوا stay they of له for him غىب unseen السماوت the heavens والارض and the land ابصر sees به in it واسمع and hears ما not لهم for them من from دونه besides him من from ولى guardian ولا and not ىشرك associate فى in حكمه wisdom his احدا anyone of
I guess living in a cave unconscious is not enjoyable time but difficult time.
Quote from: Noon waalqalami on August 19, 2017, 04:33:45 PM
29:14 ولقد and surely ارسلنا sends we of نوحا Noah of الى to قومه folk his فلبث so stay فىهم in them الف thousand سنه sanatin (period of time) الا except خمسىن fifty عاما Aama/year of (solar) فاخذهم so seizes them الطوفان the deluge وهم and they ظلمون were unjustly
When a messenger is doing everything to convey the message and people are not listening then it is a difficult time. The verse can be interpreted that most of his life he faced difficult time because the message was not accepted except for a little time.
Quote from: Novice on August 19, 2017, 05:56:33 PM
I guess living in a cave unconscious is not enjoyable time but difficult time.
When a messenger is doing everything to convey the message and people are not listening then it is a difficult time. The verse can be interpreted that most of his life he faced difficult time because the message was not accepted except for a little time.
Peace, do simple word substitution to see that meaning ascribed by Parvez below is senseless/contradicting...
Quote from: Novice on June 24, 2017, 02:03:56 PMIn Lughat-ul-Quran, Parvez writes that al-sana(t) is called a year of hardship/famine and al-aam a year of greenery and abundance. So may be 29:14 is saying that Noah mostly had hardship except for a little time of ease.Likewise three separate words:
عام Aam/year (solar);
سنىن sinīna/years (lunar);
سنه sanatin (time-frames/dates)
12:47 قل said تزرعون thou cultivating سبع seven سنىن sinīna/years of hardship/famine? دابا usual of فما so what حصدتم harvest you فذروه so leave it فى in سنبله corn husk its الا except قلىلا little of مما from what تاكلون thou eating
17:12 وجعلنا and made we of اللىل the night والنهار and the daytime اىتىن signs two فمحونا so erase we of اىه sign اللىل the night وجعلنا and made we of اىه sign النهار the daytime مبصره visible لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of فضلا bounty of من from ربكم lord yours ولتعلموا and to thou know ye of عدد number السنىن l-sinīna/the years of hardship/famine? والحساب and the account وكل and each شىء thing فصلنه explain we it تفصىلا detailed of
70:4 تعرج ascend الملىكه the controllers/angels والروح and the spirit الىه toward him فى in ىوم day كان be مقداره measure its خمسىن fifty الف thousand سنه sanatin/years of hardship/famine?
Quote from: Noon waalqalami on August 20, 2017, 03:47:10 PM
Peace, do simple word substitution to see that meaning ascribed by Parvez below is senseless/contradicting...
Quote from: Novice on June 24, 2017, 02:03:56 PM
In Lughat-ul-Quran, Parvez writes that al-sana(t) is called a year of hardship/famine and al-aam a year of greenery and abundance. So may be 29:14 is saying that Noah mostly had hardship except for a little time of ease.
Likewise three separate words: عام Aam/year (solar); سنىن sinīna/years (lunar); سنه sanatin (time-frames/dates)
12:47 قل said تزرعون thou cultivating سبع seven سنىن sinīna/years of hardship/famine? دابا usual of فما so what حصدتم harvest you فذروه so leave it فى in سنبله corn husk its الا except قلىلا little of مما from what تاكلون thou eating
17:12 وجعلنا and made we of اللىل the night والنهار and the daytime اىتىن signs two فمحونا so erase we of اىه sign اللىل the night وجعلنا and made we of اىه sign النهار the daytime مبصره visible لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of فضلا bounty of من from ربكم lord yours ولتعلموا and to thou know ye of عدد number السنىن l-sinīna/the years of hardship/famine? والحساب and the account وكل and each شىء thing فصلنه explain we it تفصىلا detailed of
70:4 تعرج ascend الملىكه the controllers/angels والروح and the spirit الىه toward him فى in ىوم day كان be مقداره measure its خمسىن fifty الف thousand سنه sanatin/years of hardship/famine?
Peace Noon
Here is what Parvez explained in his Lughat ul Quran. All the meanings you gave for three words are given by him as well. What he wrote is that a usage of AAM and Sinina is also time of hardship and time of abundance.
س ن و W-N-S
َۃُ ?
َ َّ لسن
ا) ?as-sanah) means years (its plurals are ?ات ٌ وَ َ
ُ ْو َن? ,(sanawatَ ? (سن
ِ ْی َن? and) sinoonِ ? (سن
.(sineenِ ?(سن
There is some difference of opinion about its root. One school of thought says that its root is (S-N-H)
because the Arabs say ? ت ُہَ ْ
ً َسان
ُ َلانا
ف) ? saanahtu fulana) which means that I cut a deal with him on yearly
rate.
Ibn Faris says the real meaning of ?ٌ
َہ
سن) ? َsanah) is dependent on a period of time.
َۃُ ?
َّ ْخل
َ ِت الن
َہ
سن) ? َsanahatan nakhlah): many years passed on the date palm. A second opinion says that its
root is ?وَ ٌ
سن) ? َsano) from which ?وُ ْ
َ ْسن
ی) ?yasnu) has been derived, which means to go round and round a
well.
َۃُ ?
ِی
َ َّ لسان
ا) ?as-saaniyah) means an animal which is made to go round and round a well in order to bring
water out .
َۃُ ?
َ َّ لسن
ا) ?as-sanah) means one orbit of the sun. This is also called ?ار ٌ د) ? َdaar), and since this orbit takes a
full year, therefore ? ُۃَ
َ َّ لسن
ا) ?as-sinah) means one year.
َۃُ ?
َ َ لسن
ا) ?as-sanah) is a solar year while ?ام ُعْ َ
َل
ا) ?al-a?am) is a lunar year.
َۃُ ?
َ َّ لسن
ا) ?as-sanah) also means a year when there is drought and intensity, and ?ام ُعْ َ
َل
ا) ?al-a?am) is a year
when there is prosperity and good harvest .
29:14 And he lived fifty less than one thousand years
among his people
ِ
ِ َث ف
َب
َل
ْ َف فـ
ل
َ
ْ ا
ِهم
ْ
ٍ ي
َة
ن
َ ً
َ س اما
ْ َين ع
ِ
َْس
َّلا خم
ِ
ا
Here ?ً
عاما) ? َa?ama) is the period without hardships and ?ٌۃَ
سن) ? َsanah) is the period when there were
hardships.
Lane says ?ٌۃَ
سن) ? َsanah) also means crop of which there are four harvest in a year.
َ ٍۃ?
ْ َف َ سن
َل
ا) ?alfa sanatin) means two hundred fifty years, and ?ام ٌع) ? َa?am) is one full year. So if ?ً
? َخ ْم ِسْی َن َ عاما
(khamseen aama) are taken out from it, it leaves us with two hundred years, which could be a man?s age.
But these are all conjectures. When more historical facts come forth it will become clear what the Quran
meant to say that Nooh lived fifty less than one thousand years among his people (29:14). Some say this
is his period of messenger-hood, which commenced from the the era of an earlier messenger of Allah.
?َُّ
اه
َۃً? or) sannahَ ? (سن
ِی
َ ْسن
ت) ?tasniah): opened it, facilitated it, made it easy {T, M, R}.
Source http://qes.no/Lughat/LughatVolum-II.pdf
Quote from: Novice on August 20, 2017, 05:12:06 PM
Peace Noon
Here is what Parvez explained in his Lughat ul Quran. All the meanings you gave for three words are given by him as well. What he wrote is that a usage of AAM and Sinina is also time of hardship and time of abundance.
Peace Novice, he/they are all over the place -- do you see the clear contradiction with below?
12:47 قل said تزرعون thou cultivating/harvesting سبع seven سنىن sinīna/years of hardship/famine?
Likewise with this receipt for sheep Perf-558 was year "22" (25 April 643 CE) bad/good year?
شهر shahru جمدى jumada الاولى the first من from سنه sanatin اثنىن twosome وعشرىن and twenty (i.e. 22) وكتبه and written his ابن son حدىدو hadidu
(https://s3.postimg.org/u5wb0wv0j/Perf-558.jpg)
Peace Noon
What I understood from his Lughat is that Aam and Sinina were also used as years of hardship/famine or years of ease/abundabce. It does not mean that this usage is for each and every instance.
How would you translate/understand verse 29:14?
Quote from: Novice on August 21, 2017, 10:19:18 PM
Peace Noon
What I understood from his Lughat is that Aam and Sinina were also used as years of hardship/famine or years of ease/abundabce. It does not mean that this usage is for each and every instance.
How would you translate/understand verse 29:14?
Peace Novice, need to study نوحا nūḥan (Noah of/a Noah); likewise 46:15 اشده ashuddahu/vigor his وبلغ and reach اربعىن forty سنه (it's different uses) cross-reference especially with 18:82 واما and as for الجدار the wall فكان so it was لغلمىن for boys two ىتىمىن yatīmayni/orphaned two ... فاراد so intended ربك lord your ان that ىبلغا reached dual اشدهما ashuddahumā/vigor theirs dual (40 year old orphans?) perhaps forty سنه in context pertains to 40 cell divisions/iterations and is about aging; see Hayflick limit.
Peace,
Quote from: ayman on August 03, 2009, 03:37:34 PM
You are making things too complicated for yourself. The god simply tells us in 17:12 to use the day and night to know the number of years. No need for conjecture about eclipses or things to supposedly align with the galaxy center. The ONLY way to use the day and night to know the number of years is if we take the year as the interval between longest/shortest day/night, in other words the interval between solstices. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY TO APPLY 17:12 PERIOD.
That is not true as we could pick the interval between equinoxes. What speaks against this? Can you explain also why it can't be any other days?
Also, how would the intercalary period work - what happens if a 13th full moon appears. How exactly would one account for that, how long, etc.?
Salaam!
So who is fasting now?
I jumped from thread 120 to 285 just to ask the question.
May Allah bless us all.
Quote from: Nomar on July 06, 2018, 06:31:28 AM
Salaam!
So who is fasting now?
I jumped from thread 120 to 285 just to ask the question.
May Allah bless us all.
The correct question is not who is fasting now,
but why are muslims blind to God's truth?
And God's truth is that each full moon appears only in its own season;
so the fasting full moon
no matter which particular one it is
appears only in one particular season of the year.
Quote from: brook on July 06, 2018, 07:54:48 AM
The correct question is not who is fasting now,
but why are muslims blind to God's truth?
And God's truth is that each full moon appears only in its own season;
so the fasting full moon
no matter which particular one it is
appears only in one particular season of the year.
No need to of a calendar. Wrong translations will lead to this kind of threads
See the gods truth to which Muslims will be blind forever
http://quranstruelight.com/thematic-translation-installments-1-35-in-english/crucial-themes-of-fasting-and-pilgrimage-installment-8
Quote from: Nomar on July 06, 2018, 06:31:28 AM
Salaam!
So who is fasting now?
I jumped from thread 120 to page 285 just to ask the question.
May Allah bless us all.
It should be "page 120 to 285."
So did anyone here fast the shahr ramadhan on June 28, 2018?
Quote from: progressive1993 on October 06, 2017, 02:31:46 AMThat is not true as we could pick the interval between equinoxes. What speaks against this? Can you explain also why it can't be any other days?
Also, how would the intercalary period work - what happens if a 13th full moon appears. How exactly would one account for that, how long, etc.?
Peace and sorry for the delayed reply. The equinoxes will only give you the count of half a year and not a year as per 17:12.
In years where you get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, you simply ignore the 13th moon and skip counting it and count only 12 as per 9:36. This realigns the year so that the first full-moon is always the one after the summer solstice.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
Peace and greetings.
I counted from the last prescribed fast (June 28) 12 Full Moons - which works out to be on June 17 2019. This is 4 days before the official day of the start of the Summer Solstice, which is on the 21 June.
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on April 24, 2019, 11:07:55 AM
Peace and greetings.
I counted from the last prescribed fast (June 28) 12 Full Moons - which works out to be on June 17 2019. This is 4 days before the official day of the start of the Summer Solstice, which is on the 21 June.
Peace Scrappy.
Please note that number of the full moons is not 12 but 13
from summer solstice 2018 to summer solstice 2019:
http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html
01 ->
Jun 28, 2018
02 -> July 27
03 -> Aug 26
04 -> Sep 25
05 -> Oct 24
06 -> Nov 23
07 -> Dec 22
08 -> Jan 21 ...
09 -> Feb 19
10 -> Mar 21
11 -> Apr 19
12 -> May 18
13 -> Jun 17
01 -> July 17 2019
...
Welcome back Brook. It's been a while.
Quote from: brook on April 24, 2019, 09:40:21 PM
Peace Scrappy.
Please note that number of the full moons is not 12 but 13
from summer solstice 2018 to summer solstice 2019:
http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html
01 -> Jun 28, 2018
02 -> July 27
03 -> Aug 26
04 -> Sep 25
05 -> Oct 24
06 -> Nov 23
07 -> Dec 22
08 -> Jan 21 ...
09 -> Feb 19
10 -> Mar 21
11 -> Apr 19
12 -> May 18
13 -> Jun 17
01 -> July 17 2019
...
I counted 12 moons from the last Ramadan, not 13. :/
Does the 13 month get counted as 1, otherwise we will be fasting in april in a few years. I must be having a numpty head moment, cause I can't seem to count. :giveup:
I counted the 13th month as number 1 the start of Shahru Ramadan, and fasting is always in June, If you miss the 13th month out completely, which is not what I am understanding anyway, we will keep going backwards.
Salaam Ayman,
Some of the links on the Quran 4 Peace website is no longer clickable.
Quote from: ayman on November 23, 2018, 02:57:41 PM
Peace and sorry for the delayed reply. The equinoxes will only give you the count of half a year and not a year as per 17:12.
In years where you get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, you simply ignore the 13th moon and skip counting it and count only 12 as per 9:36. This realigns the year so that the first full-moon is always the one after the summer solstice.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
Quote from: ayman on November 23, 2018, 02:57:41 PM
Peace and sorry for the delayed reply. The equinoxes will only give you the count of half a year and not a year as per 17:12.
In years where you get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, you simply ignore the 13th moon and skip counting it and count only 12 as per 9:36. This realigns the year so that the first full-moon is always the one after the summer solstice.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
Ayman seems to say that number of full moons is never 13 as per 9:36. But God is not saying that. What God is saying as per 9:36 is that
number of full moons is 12 just like He is saying as per 2:258 that God brings the sun from the east.
Does the fact that God brings the sun from the east mean that He brings only the sun from the east? Does He not bring from the east the full moons as well?
The claim that number of full moons is only 12 belongs to the supporters of the 12-moon lunar YEAR, and the claim is false. God's truth is that you cannot make a YEAR from الشهور - the full moons.
Quote from: brook on May 02, 2019, 01:57:57 AM
Ayman seems to say that number of full moons is never 13 as per 9:36. But God is not saying that. What God is saying as per 9:36 is that number of full moons is 12 just like He is saying as per 2:258 that God brings the sun from the east.
Does the fact that God brings the sun from the east mean that He brings only the sun from the east? Does He not bring from the east the full moons as well?
The claim that number of full moons is only 12 belongs to the supporters of the 12-moon lunar YEAR, and the claim is false. God's truth is that you cannot make a YEAR from الشهور - the full moons.
peace brook ... see difference count (1, 2, 3, ... 10, 11, 12) and number e.g. (12)
9:36 عده ʿiddata/count
9:37 عده ʿiddata/count
23:112 عدد ʿadada/number
72:28 عددا ʿadadan/number of (a number)
Quote from: Noon waalqalami on May 02, 2019, 07:40:18 AM
peace brook ... see difference count (1, 2, 3, ... 10, 11, 12) and number e.g. (12)
9:36 عده ʿiddata/count
9:37 عده ʿiddata/count
23:112 عدد ʿadada/number
72:28 عددا ʿadadan/number of (a number)
Ayman has discussed this in the past, e.g.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9480.msg39246#msg39246
Original article: http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
Quote from: Noon waalqalami on May 02, 2019, 07:40:18 AM
peace brook ... see difference count (1, 2, 3, ... 10, 11, 12) and number e.g. (12)
9:36 عده ʿiddata/count
9:37 عده ʿiddata/count
23:112 عدد ʿadada/number
72:28 عددا ʿadadan/number of (a number)
Peace, dear Noon.
Without diacritical marks
عده in 9:36 is the same as
عدد in 23:112.
I mention this because you consider it important.
As for the years where you get 13 full moons between summer solstices,
man has to take it as it is and live the 13th full moon as it is.
Man cannot postpone it or skip it as he has no means.
God has placed it where it is,
and there it stays
no matter what man petends to do.
The earth makes 1 complete revolution around the sun every 365 plus days,
and that is what makes the YEAR.
The year does not depend on the 12/13 revolutions of the moon around the earth.
The solar year is related to full moons (10:5), yes
but it is not open to man's playing with it.
Full moons do need man's skipping or postponing them in order to fit the year.
peace,
Quote from: brook on May 02, 2019, 09:19:50 PM
Without diacritical marks
عده in 9:36 is the same as
عدد in 23:112.
False. For example the former has the ta marbuta at the end.
Quote from: Wakas on May 03, 2019, 09:40:08 AM
peace,
False. For example the former has the ta marbuta at the end.
Yes. I noticed that after I had posted my reply;
thank you for correcting the error.
However, what I said in my reply still counts
from the expression "As for the years..."
to the end of the expression "Full moons do NOT need man's skipping or postponing them in order to fit the year."
This is also my response to Noon's following post.
Quote from: brook on May 02, 2019, 09:19:50 PM
Peace, dear Noon.
Without diacritical marks
عده in 9:36 is the same as
عدد in 23:112.
I mention this because you consider it important.
As for the years where you get 13 full moons between summer solstices,
man has to take it as it is and live the 13th full moon as it is.
Man cannot postpone it or skip it as he has no means.
peace brook, have a closer look.
9:36 indeed iddata/count l-shuhuri near/with the god dual ten [i.e. (12)] shahran
i.e. count 12 between solstices not 13 (man-made count).
likewise, the year is solar in all occurrences, never lunar.
9:126 every amin/year solar (sing)
31:14 amayni/year two solar (dual)
2:259 hundred (100) amin/year
likewise, most likely for 200
l-sinina/the years (counted pl. 3 to 9)
10:5 adada/number l-sinina/the years
18:25 three hundred (300) sinina/years
likewise, for 400, 500, ..., 800, 900
sana/years, perhaps for duration?
tens: 10, 20, 30, ..., 70, 80, 90
thousands: 1000, 2000, ..., 50000
46:15 group of (40) sanatan/years
70:4 group of (50) thousand sanatin/years
29:14 thousand sanatin/years except group of (50) aman/year of
this is the only problematic one for it says we sent "a noah"?
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/36/handschrift/163
662-765 CE (95.4%) [Carbon 14 dated by Coranica]
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMBbPSQ9/ch9v34-40.jpg)
peace and all the best!
Salam,
The true fast is in December for 10 days only.
https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2018&country=74
--------1----------2-----3-------4-------5-------6-------7------8------9------10------11-----12-----13---
A.Jun 28, 2018-Jul 27-Aug 26-Sep 25-Oct 24-Nov 23-Dec 22-Jan 21-Feb 19-Mar 21-Apr 19-May 19-Jun 17
B.Jul 17, 2019-Aug 15-Sep 14-Oct 14-Nov 12-Dec 12-Jan 10-Feb 09-Mar 09-Apr 08-May 07-Jun 05 ..........
C.Jul 05, 2020-Aug 03-Sep 02-Oct 02-?
A, B, C are not a year;
they are each a series of full moons between summer solstices;
and each one of them begins on Shahr Ramadan (Scorching).
The year begins on June 21, when the longest daytime is lived.
The first 4 full moons of each series
are arba?AAtun hurum (9:36), restricted four, as hunting is restricted in them.
If you want to avoid the restriction,
you postpone the last non-restricted full moon of a series, e.g. Jun 17, 2019
and live it in place of the following first restricted full moon, e.g. July 17, 2019
or you postpone Jun 05, 2020 and live it in place of July 05, 2020.
For anyone who cares, and if God so wills, I shall be fasting July 16 for 10 days.
:jedi: :eat: :peace:
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on May 06, 2019, 12:57:15 PM
For anyone who cares, and if God so wills, I shall be fasting July 16 for 10 days.
:jedi: :eat: :peace:
Huh that's my birthday.
Quote from: ayman on November 23, 2018, 02:57:41 PM
... The equinoxes will only give you the count of half a year and not a year as per 17:12.
In years where you get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, you simply ignore the 13th moon and skip counting it and count only 12 as per 9:36. This realigns the year so that the first full-moon is always the one after the summer solstice.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
What realigns the year is not
full moons but man's choice of the day when the year should start.
For example the Christians who drew up their calendar have chosen Jesus Christ's birthday,
so muslims may choose the day when Prophet Muhammed migrated from Medina.
This is none of the business of the full moons because the year is not made up of full moons but months.
Full moons and months are different things.
The following are not months;
they are each a 12/13-full moon series between summer solstices:
--------1----------2-----3-------4-------5-------6-------7------8------9------10------11-----12-----13---
A.Jun 28, 2018-Jul 27-Aug 26-Sep 25-Oct 24-Nov 23-Dec 22-Jan 21-Feb 19-Mar 21-Apr 19-May 19-Jun 17
B.Jul 17, 2019-Aug 15-Sep 14-Oct 14-Nov 12-Dec 12-Jan 10-Feb 09-Mar 09-Apr 08-May 07-Jun 05 ..........
C.Jul 05, 2020-Aug 03-Sep 02-Oct 02-?
The 13th full moon of June 17, 2019 takes place in the series before summer solstice 2019
because it rises BEFORE summer solstice 2019.
The 12th full moon of June 05, 2020 takes place in the series before summer solstice 2020
because it rises BEFORE summer solstice 2020.
God has decided their place, so they stay where they are;
all which man has to do is abide by God's decision.
Man has no power, anyways, to
postpone a full moon;
neither does he have any power to
skip counting it.
Each full moon stays in the series where it belongs to and man lives it during its due time.
The number of full moons in series A is 13,
and the number of full moon in series B is 12;
This is God's truth, and man will acept it.
Salam,
I would like to add a comment on this 12 or 13 months issue.
The Quran is very clear in 9:36, that the "count of the months with God are 12 months".
This verse is what has caused a tailspin with the Sunni/Shia calendar causing them to chop-off the 13th months which used to be inserted to stabilize the year (although the Qur'an states that they were guilty of manipulation by inserting the 13th year every other year - when it should have been nearly every 3rd year).
As has been pointed out in this thread, the "month" is a full cycle of the moon - lasting 29-30 days, and is not the sighting of the crescent or the full moon.
As such, the statement in 9:36 becomes very clear: the 12 months in 1 year are a factual statement, as there can NEVER be 13 full cycles in 1-year (383 days), further defining to us that the length of the Quran's count of the year, using full months, cannot be less than 354 or greater than 384.
Quote from: Layth on May 08, 2019, 03:12:07 AM
Salam,
I would like to add a comment on this 12 or 13 months issue.
The Quran is very clear in 9:36, that the "count of the months with God are 12 months".
This verse is what has caused a tailspin with the Sunni/Shia calendar causing them to chop-off the 13th months which used to be inserted to stabilize the year (although the Qur'an states that they were guilty of manipulation by inserting the 13th year every other year - when it should have been nearly every 3rd year).
As has been pointed out in this thread, the "month" is a full cycle of the moon - lasting 29-30 days, and is not the sighting of the crescent or the full moon.
As such, the statement in 9:36 becomes very clear: the 12 months in 1 year are a factual statement, as there can NEVER be 13 full cycles in 1-year (383 days), further defining to us that the length of the Quran's count of the year, using full months, cannot be less than 354 or greater than 384.
Following are the Scorching Full Moon nights;
--> .. indicating the exact time of the 13th full moon in the
full moon series initiated by the Scorching Full Moon.
https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2033&country=74
Jul. 05, 2001
Jun 25, 2002 --> 01
Jul. 13, 2003
Jul. 02, 2004
Jun 22, 2005 --> 02
Jul. 11, 2006
Jun 30, 2007 --> 03
Jul. 18, 2008
Jul. 07, 2009
Jun 26, 2010 --> 04
Jul. 15, 2011
Jul. 03, 2012
Jun 23, 2013 --> 05
Jul. 12, 2014
Jul. 02, 2015 --> 06
Jul. 20, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018 --> 07
Jul. 17, 2019
Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 25, 2021 -- >08
Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2024 --> 09
Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2026 --> 10
Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2029 --> 11
Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2032 --> 12
Jul. 12, 2033
Peace Scrappy-doo,
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on May 06, 2019, 12:57:15 PM
For anyone who cares, and if God so wills, I shall be fasting July 16 for 10 days.
:jedi: :eat: :peace:
The scorching full moon is on the night of July 16. So the fasting starts on the dawn of July 17 and lasts for 10 days, i.e. until July 26th.
In most places, the full-moon will appear shortly after the sun sets. Remember the following passages as you witness it:
84:16. So I do swear by the redness of dusk.After sunset when the sky is glowing red
84:17. And the night and what it enshrouds.and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction
84:18. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.
Tip: I believe the best way to witness this full moon is to find a spot where there?s a low horizon at the point exactly opposite the sunset, because this is where the big full moon will rise (e.g. the countryside, the beach,...). Once it climbs overhead it will shrink to a fraction of its moonrise size. If possible, try to position yourself so it rises behind some far away buildings or trees to appreciate the size difference.
Peace
The night of alqadr and shahr ramadan.
http://www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-part6.pdf
God bless
Quote from: Houriya on November 07, 2019, 12:16:35 PM
Peace
The night of alqadr and shahr ramadan.
http://www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-part6.pdf
God bless
salam Houriya,
I know, it's been more than five months but do you have a translation of this article ?
Thanks.
Peace Fadiva,
Quote from: Fadiva on April 29, 2020, 08:19:21 AM
do you have a translation of this article ?
The chapter in the link is based on the original posts in this thread (same author). Maybe not an exact translation — the link has also some additional information/insights from discussions in this thread and others on this forum — but it is mainly an Arabic version/translation of the article (see original post).
Also, only the first three chapters of the book are available in English for now (see my signature).
Best regards.
Salam Zach,
Thank you :)
For the purpose of delay their must be a certain period of happening or certain events occurring, restriction is from hunt therefore period of hunt must coincides with period of restriction, which is four, and delay is to make hunt permitted one year and restricted another year. In purely lunar calendar this coincidence can never take place 'permanently' thus circumvention is evident. Ancients must have loved the hunt.
A day is better than days and should night be better than it must be better than other nights but in no case day or night could be compare with each other or the months, as they are disparate product of cosmic luminaries. thus, in 97:3 "shahar" is not months.
Quote from: Dr Adnan on June 18, 2020, 10:41:50 AM
For the purpose of delay their must be a certain period of happening or certain events occurring, restriction is from hunt therefore period of hunt must coincides with period of restriction, which is four, and delay is to make hunt permitted one year and restricted another year. In purely lunar calendar this coincidence can never take place 'permanently' thus circumvention is evident. Ancients must have loved the hunt.
Peace Dr. Adnan,
I have been inactive for a while but saw your post today. Indeed the whole timing is all about the hunting restriction. Even fasting is about the hunting restriction and our role as good stewards of this blessed earth and all the creatures in it. From your observation, not only does the hunting restriction coincide with the inviolable 4 full moons but also the fact that the ancients used improper intercalation to violate the hunting restriction would confirm that the year starts with the inviolable 4 full moons (since intercalation happens at the end of the year).
The scorching full-moon (the first inviolable full moon) and inhumane hunting are closely connected. In the discussion of the root "RaMaD" in Lexicons one of the derivatives is "taramod" and it has the meaning of a hunter chasing prey during the time of scorching heat ("ramad") until its legs are burned from the intensity of running in the heat and the hunter easily catches it . By killing a female wild animal in this inhumane manner as she went out searching for food for her newborns, the hunter would not just be killing her but he would also be sentencing her dependent newborns to a slow death by thirst and starvation. Instead of proper intercalation, the Arabs used to delay the first inviolable full-moon (the scorching full-moon) every other year in order to take advantage of this inhumane way of hunting to easily catch prey.
It is often believed that the purpose of fasting is to feel the suffering of the poor. However, this is clearly false since the poor are also to fast and there is no exemption for them. Passage 5:95 lists fasting as one of the punishments for violating the hunting restriction and specifically as a way for the hunter to "
TASTE the evil result of his deed".
005.095
O you who have faith! do not kill game while you are restricted, and whoever among you shall kill it intentionally, the compensation is the equivalent of what he killed from the livestock, as two just persons among you shall judge, as an offering to reach the base, or the expiation by feeding the poor, or the equivalent of it in fasting so that he may taste the evil result of his deed. The god has pardoned past offenses. But whoever does it again, the god will inflict retribution on him; and the god is mighty with retribution. Fasting will make the hunter taste the evil result of his deed by experiencing thirst and hunger like his victim's newborn animals.
The connection of fasting with animals and the hunting restriction is a reminder that humans as leaders of the earth should humanely treat creatures under our care. It is also apparent when we look at the only two passages in the Quran where the expression "magnify the god for what he guided you" occurs:
2:185. A scorching full-moon is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and revelations from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling, a count of other days. The god wants to make it easy not hard on you. And complete the count and magnify the god for what he guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
022.037
YUSUFALI: It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches that reaches the god. It is your forethought that reaches him. He has thus made them subject to you, so that you magnify the god for what he has guided you and give good news to all who do right. The purpose of the fasting marked by the scorching full moon (the first inviolable full moon that signals the beginning of the hunting restriction) is to remind us to have compassion for the suffering of newborn animals who would die from thirst and hunger if a hunter kills their mother.
Those who are guided will understand how everything is connected, the timing, the restriction, fasting, our purpose in life, and the god appointing us as leaders of this earth.
Peace and blessings,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I would like to have your opinion on this article concerning the practice of siyam as a retreat in the temples.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=8a217a9b0e845f01e1c6a696b7383fa5&topic=9610862.0
We had a discussion about laylate alqadr in 2004.
Peace
Houriya alias marie
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for elucidation, learning itself is a journey some travel fast some slow.
Indeed, they are all connected, "the timing, the restriction, fasting". which were in later time separated by founders of artificial religion called Al-Islam in same manner the way they separated salat and Qur'an.
Peace and blessing,
Adnan
Peace,
You haven't answered my request.
Peace
Quote from: Houriya on July 21, 2020, 06:52:38 AM
Peace Ayman,
I would like to have your opinion on this article concerning the practice of siyam as a retreat in the temples.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=8a217a9b0e845f01e1c6a696b7383fa5&topic=9610862.0
We had a discussion about laylate alqadr in 2004.
Quote from: Houriya on July 21, 2020, 06:52:38 AM
Peace Ayman,
I would like to have your opinion on this article concerning the practice of siyam as a retreat in the temples.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=8a217a9b0e845f01e1c6a696b7383fa5&topic=9610862.0
We had a discussion about laylate alqadr in 2004.
Peace
Houriya alias marie
Peace Sister..
I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 58:04 or 5:95 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam? Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation...
Peace brother,
I would like to answer your question in the thread dedicated to spiritual retreat during siyam.
God's law: in the same solar year
every tour the moon makes around the earth produces a NEW lunar month;
therefore never does a lunar month e.g. Jumada al-Ula repeat itself.
Did we believers obey this divine law in solar year 2020
so that the time of Shahr Ramadan in solar year 2021 can be true?
Please take a look at the full moon dates in year 2020
and decide for yourself:
Full Moons in 2020:
Jan 10 ---------- Jumada al-Ula*
Feb 08 ---------- Jumada al-Akhirah
Mar 09 ---------- Rajab
Apr 08 ---------- Sha'ban
May 07 ---------- Ramadan
Jun 06 ---------- Shawwal
Jul 05 ----------- Dhul-Qa'dah
Aug 04 ---------- Dhul-Hijjah
Sep 02 ---------- Muharram
Oct 01 ---------- Safar
Oct 31 ---------- Rabi' al-Awwal
Nov 29 --------- Rabi' ath-Thani
Dec 29 --------- ?
Full Moons in 2021:
Jan 27 ---------- Jumada al-Ula
Feb 26 ---------- Jumada al-Akhirah
Mar 28 ---------- Rajab
Apr 26 ---------- Sha'ban
May 26 --------- Ramadan
.......
____________________________________________
*https://www.al-habib.info/islamic-calendar/hijri-global/hijri-calendar-1441-AH.htm
peace,
If recipients knew what shahr ramadan (2:185) meant, - a lunar month starting from new crescent - then why they asked for "crescents" (2:189)? recipient knew what shahr ramdan meant and it was something which prompted them to ask about crescent because it had nothing to do with crescents.
peace
Quote from: Scrappy-doo on May 06, 2019, 12:57:15 PM
For anyone who cares, and if God so wills, I shall be fasting July 16 for 10 days.
:jedi: :eat: :peace:
Salaam.
Are you fasting now? Anyone here fasting like us after witnessing shahr ramadhan 2022 a few days ago?
Quote from: ayman on July 21, 2020, 12:40:53 AM
Peace Dr. Adnan,
I have been inactive for a while but saw your post today. Indeed the whole timing is all about the hunting restriction. Even fasting is about the hunting restriction and our role as good stewards of this blessed earth and all the creatures in it. From your observation, not only does the hunting restriction coincide with the inviolable 4 full moons but also the fact that the ancients used improper intercalation to violate the hunting restriction would confirm that the year starts with the inviolable 4 full moons (since intercalation happens at the end of the year).
The scorching full-moon (the first inviolable full moon) and inhumane hunting are closely connected. In the discussion of the root "RaMaD" in Lexicons one of the derivatives is "taramod" and it has the meaning of a hunter chasing prey during the time of scorching heat ("ramad") until its legs are burned from the intensity of running in the heat and the hunter easily catches it . By killing a female wild animal in this inhumane manner as she went out searching for food for her newborns, the hunter would not just be killing her but he would also be sentencing her dependent newborns to a slow death by thirst and starvation. Instead of proper intercalation, the Arabs used to delay the first inviolable full-moon (the scorching full-moon) every other year in order to take advantage of this inhumane way of hunting to easily catch prey.
It is often believed that the purpose of fasting is to feel the suffering of the poor. However, this is clearly false since the poor are also to fast and there is no exemption for them. Passage 5:95 lists fasting as one of the punishments for violating the hunting restriction and specifically as a way for the hunter to "TASTE the evil result of his deed".
005.095
O you who have faith! do not kill game while you are restricted, and whoever among you shall kill it intentionally, the compensation is the equivalent of what he killed from the livestock, as two just persons among you shall judge, as an offering to reach the base, or the expiation by feeding the poor, or the equivalent of it in fasting so that he may taste the evil result of his deed. The god has pardoned past offenses. But whoever does it again, the god will inflict retribution on him; and the god is mighty with retribution.
Fasting will make the hunter taste the evil result of his deed by experiencing thirst and hunger like his victim's newborn animals.
The connection of fasting with animals and the hunting restriction is a reminder that humans as leaders of the earth should humanely treat creatures under our care. It is also apparent when we look at the only two passages in the Quran where the expression "magnify the god for what he guided you" occurs:
2:185. A scorching full-moon is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and revelations from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling, a count of other days. The god wants to make it easy not hard on you. And complete the count and magnify the god for what he guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
022.037
YUSUFALI: It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches that reaches the god. It is your forethought that reaches him. He has thus made them subject to you, so that you magnify the god for what he has guided you and give good news to all who do right.
The purpose of the fasting marked by the scorching full moon (the first inviolable full moon that signals the beginning of the hunting restriction) is to remind us to have compassion for the suffering of newborn animals who would die from thirst and hunger if a hunter kills their mother.
Those who are guided will understand how everything is connected, the timing, the restriction, fasting, our purpose in life, and the god appointing us as leaders of this earth.
Peace and blessings,
Ayman
Salaam.
Are you halfway through your fasting now bro Ayman?
Quote from: Nomar on July 22, 2022, 05:40:23 AM
Salaam.
Are you fasting now? Anyone here fasting like us after witnessing shahr ramadhan 2022 a few days ago?
Salaam,
Absolutely, though the fast had begun on the full moon which was the 14th of July and just ended today, the 23rd. You can find Ayman on his facebook group at:
https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace
Thank you!
Quote from: zeljko67 on July 24, 2022, 04:08:32 AM
Salaam,
Absolutely, though the fast had begun on the full moon which was the 14th of July and just ended today, the 23rd. You can find Ayman on his facebook group at:
https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace
One group of Scholars claim that pre-Quranic Arabia was following Luni-solar calendar and after Quranic injunction calendar was abandoned and pure Lunar calendar was adopted, opposite group of scholars claim that pre-quranic Arabia was following lunar calendar and they use to postpone the restricted period. And after Quranic injunction postponement system was abandoned. Both groups of scholar claim that zodiac names found in safiatic epigraphic evidence (dialects of Old Arabic attested in the Safaitic script) were substituted for the name of lunar months. However, there is no attested proof that nomads of hijaz followed any luni-solar or purely lunar calendar substituting zodiac names for months. In contrary, Al Jallad, the leading authority in the field, has with cogent evidence based on archeological findings of Safaitic epigraphic evidence from pre-Quranic time, disproved the proposition that in pre-Quranic Arabia the zodiac names were substituted either for month names of the luni-solar calendar or, of a purely lunar calendar. According to him, two terms associated with the zodiac names: rʾy and ks¹ʾ in epigraphic evidence if employed as meaning new moon and 'full moon', thus signaling the beginning and middle of the month, produces several chronological mismatches with the events described in the inscriptions and the time of year in which they are said to have taken place. He further demonstrated that if the nomads used an ideal 360-day calendar without intercalation or a purely lunar calendar, then the months would move forward each year by four days with the former and 11.25 days with the latter. This, however, seems impossible in light of the re-occurring phrase, 'mlḥ w ḏkr w ʾmt 'Aquarius and Aries and Libra', zodiac names, which corresponds to the similar triad of season, dṯʾ w qyẓ w s²ty 'the season of the later rains and the dry season and the winter'. The term syf (early summer), according to him, occurs only three times in the Safaitic inscriptions signifying a transitional period between dṯʾ and the dry season, qyẓ . Its fourth attestation is in Quran 106:2.
Al jallad has pointed out that on the basis of safaitic epigraphic evidence, the recording of time in epigraphs are expressed through four different means: (i) the explicit mentioning of the word snt 'year', (2) the mentioning of a particular season, (3) constellations, or (4) the use of the Babylonian months. Al jallad has concluded while discussing pre-Islamic Arabic zodiac calendar in his another 2016 published work that Arabian zodiac as a system is not directly comparable to any of the attested zodiac calendars known from antiquity, nor can it be interpreted as a luni-solar or lunar calendar where the zodiac names are simply substitutes for month names. Zodiac constellations in inscriptions, according to him, were tied to seasonal events: rains, migrations and perhaps religious rituals such as pilgrimage. Such events were mentioned in conjunction with the movement of the sun through the constellations, stars, their dawn and evening risings, rʾy and perhaps the presence of the full moon or their cosmical setting, ks¹ʾ.
Verdict being, nomads followed the seasons and mentioned the time of the season in conjunction with the movement of the sun through the constellations and perhaps the presence of the full moon. It turns out that all that we ever heard of pre-quranic Arabian calendar system from scholars is nothing but cooked up stories.
In archeological findings of Safaitic epigraphic evidence from pre-islamic time, word shahur is attested in two epigraphs discovered till now, once as singular in (KRS 1965) and another in plural in (WH 3792.a). In later as 'wrd tltt 's2hr s'nt hrb g{s2}m 'L tmd' meaning, 'he went to water for three shahrun the year {Gs2m} and the people of Tmd made war' and in former as 'b- s2hr s'bt' meaning 'in shahr sebat. 'S¹bṭ' here refers to Babylonian month sabbatu. Does Arabs were using word shahr for month?
According to Al jallad , Babylonian month corresponds to seasonal formula, he stated that sabbatu, jan-feb, corresponds to Arabic shita (winter), however, he pointed out that (KRS 1965) wherein word shahr is used, is an exception for not mentioning any season. Nevertheless he showed that Babylonian months were not used as a part of the dating formula but it was repurposed into a seasonal calendar. Therefore, it's possible that Babylonian month sabbatu correspond to particular constellation in season shita, being simply substituted for seasons or astronomical phenomena. This means that if sabbatu, (jan-feb) simply substituted for seasons or astronomical phenomena than it corresponds to zodiac 'mlḥ' that is Aquarius. This is very important, for al jallad has argued in his 2015 published work that the Safaitic inscriptions as a whole do not reflect a process of free composition, but belong instead to a formulaic writing traditions. In line with this argument he has suggested in his published work of 2016 that in pre-Islamic epigraph discovered in northern Jordan by Sabri Abbadi, c.1995 word 'qmr', literally moon, in 'b- qmr h- ʾns¹y' correspond to 'b- ks¹ʾ ngm' meaning in full moon of virgo. Both ʾns¹y and ngm meaning virgo thus qmr correspond to ks¹ meaning full moon. Similarly, it's also possible that 'b- s2hr s'bt' in (KRS 1965) is referring to full moon of sabbatu, because its corresponding to 'b- ks¹ʾ mlḥ' in (C 523) meaning 'full moon of Aquarius'.
For word month, it's suggested that safaitic inscriptions uses word 'wrhn' but they does not use either the name of constellation or of Babylonian months along with this word. Formulae in (KS 25) 'L- hmsH 'rh' 'for five rh' and in (RVP 7) 'b- rhbt wrhn' meaning 'over two wrhn' seems to be similar to 'tltt 's2hr s'nt'. Keeping in mind that pre-islamic arab didn't used any monthly based calendar or a fixed calendric system to keep track of the days, and month but they identify period of time through appearance of celestial bodies, it's not farfetched that 'wrhn' alike 'shahr' also means full moon. In summary, Arab nomads identified full moon in terms (Qamar, shahr, whrn, KS) as transition from one seasonal constellation/period to another seasonal constellation/period.
Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT) points out that yareah and s2hr, also means "full moon" {see HALOT, #3968; 3970). Similarly, in sematic usage for Arabic "sh-ah-r" there are two words in Hebrew bible (if one remembers the shift from shin to sin like shalom/salam and vice versa from sin to shin) one is שַׂהֲרֹן"saharon" plural from the same סַהַר"sahar" according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance former refer to ornament, round tire like the "moon" (Isaiah 3:18) and later word is agreed by all that it refer to "roundness" (Songs 7:2).
Hence, all the etymology of the word "shahr", its usage in Qur'an, in epigraphic evidence of pre-Quranic time, and its Semitic usage indisputably and clearly points to roundness of full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon (like Ayman put it), or concept of month as we understand.
the original meaning of roundness of expression S2hr is very important. when quran uses the word s2hr with winds, it is certainly speaking of vortex. the control over inner and outer vortex of violent winds.
may my sustainer increase me in knowledge.
Seasons and climate defines people what they want to do and when to do, like the period they can travel different directions, the period when they reset their business , properties and activities, periods of fasting etc. Even now in many parts of world, somehow this becomes important. In deserts this may not be that clear to the masses, and the way we all ignore this in the name of religion without proper reasons may lead to difficulties of all forms.
There are alternatives found nowadays as technology improved, but certain beliefs are helpful in many ways if we take those constructively and I do not think Islam should prevent us in following those in the right way.
Everyone sees the benefits of fasting, it cleans both the mind and body, even though i think the Ramadan should be a specific month with bright moon, possibly around September, and thats when the seasons change all through out the world and many cultures do some kind of fasting in this month for some reasons.
By Fasting we not only abstain from food, but our excesses in all forms, our new found habits that we feel we are addicted with.
Quote from: amin on March 11, 2024, 12:40:50 PMEveryone sees the benefits of fasting, it cleans both the mind and body, even though i think the Ramadan should be a specific month with bright moon, possibly around September, and thats when the seasons change all through out the world and many cultures do some kind of fasting in this month for some reasons.
By Fasting we not only abstain from food, but our excesses in all forms, our new found habits that we feel we are addicted with.
Salam..
It's your view.. Appreciate. I don't see any benefit of fasting.. I mean conventional fasting by skipping food and drink.. It only named as skipping food.. Lol..
I was born to a lower middle class family.. And I had times where I was self sufficient and with Covid and all again jobless.. During entire life almost or more than three decades I have fasted.. I never learned anything from it..
Tried a lot to learn but nothing I learned.. Cuz it is meaningless ritual.
Look.. For Rich they have their way of fasting.
Loads of food and drinks at dawn.. Half a days of sleep.. And before sunset, set to breakfast in front of table full of food and drinks.. And indeed it's a feast...
Poor people anyway they don't have more than one meal a day throughout the year.. People like me at least trying two meal a day or sometimes one.. That too basic of basic food just to tame the hunger.. So.. During fasting they skip food and drink during day time.. And poor people too. Cuz two meals a day means..at least 15 hours no food... So as a poor person being in poverty teaches us lot of thing and needless again additionally stay in hunger and learn... Do you ever understand that my lovely people..
I don't blame rich at all.. They are rich and blessed and thats how life style is.. But rich person eat more and tummy full and fast.. When tummy full normally in my little experience I can skip food and drink easily for one day.. Cuz hunger never comes save sleep.. And specially if I had full of flesh instead of carbs.. And I feel so sad to those who in hot sun doing labor work.. And honestly they don't fast.. I checked.. They indeed doing that labor work to ease their hunger and not to be in hunger..
Allah never commanded to be in hunger.. I never believe it..
Siyam is beautiful practice of self Descipline regardless of rich or poor..cultivate it by freshening every month in case you deviated..but siyam is retribution for certain violations in life and reform those specific violations by being self control..
If skipping food and drink makes a person thathaqun and Ivan afraid all Muslim world is muththakun... That's a whopping lie..
5:95
" ..... or an expiation of feeding of needy people or the equivalent. (Dhalika) that is / such is Siyam (Self control /Self Descipline) , in order that he may experience / perceive consequence of his deed...."
Really I am astonished by this verse.. It's clear.. We do various things that's not worthy doing it even violates.. Just repenting won't work we have to cultivate steadfastness.. That's why God says, let him EXPERIENCE / PERCEIVE... YES .perceieve his consequences so he can be of self control.
Indeed if you read the full verse you will realize the person has violated by hunting which is forbidden... So as an expiation certain options given ..so why he doing it executing those expiation is to cultivate self Descipline...and God rightly called.. "THAT'S SIYAM IN ORDER THAT HE MAY PERCEIVE /EXPERIENCE CONSEQUENCE OF HIS DEED" And not celebrate Eid once Siyam is completed but perceive the consequences... Eid?? Crazy...
well PERFECT for me... But unfortunately see the translations of conventional Muslims... Rediculous... Simply nonsensical tbh... Yes. I was blinded cuz I am non Arab and not guided bulk of my life with Quran most of the time. But not when guidance reached..
Or take a look below verse where Siyam is executed..
4:92
" .... And whoever does not find then Siyam (Self Descipline) for two months, continually repenting from Allah..."
Retribution is performed through Siyam.. Cuz he has killed an innocent believer unknowingly..so continuous repentance for two months .. So he is cultivating his self Descipline by respecting the life he took away... So you can understand Siyam involves repentance too.. We perform siyam to cultivate self discipline to a known action or unknown action committed... 2:183:187 is unknown actions committed so we control ourselves to overcome it and to reflect if what we did and keep repenting and asking forgiveness and thus magnifying the Lord.. That siyam format a person and allow him to come out as a new person for rest of the month and again next month full moon days... Not yearly skipp food.. Lol
Quote from: jkhan on March 11, 2024, 08:55:22 PMSalam..
It's your view.. Appreciate. I don't see any benefit of fasting.. I mean conventional fasting by skipping food and drink.. It only named as skipping food.. Lol..
I was born to a lower middle class family.. And I had times where I was self sufficient and with Covid and all again jobless.. During entire life almost or more than three decades I have fasted.. I never learned anything from it..
Tried a lot to learn but nothing I learned.. Cuz it is meaningless ritual.
Look.. For Rich they have their way of fasting.
Loads of food and drinks at dawn.. Half a days of sleep.. And before sunset, set to breakfast in front of table full of food and drinks.. And indeed it's a feast...
Poor people anyway they don't have more than one meal a day throughout the year.. People like me at least trying two meal a day or sometimes one.. That too basic of basic food just to tame the hunger.. So.. During fasting they skip food and drink during day time.. And poor people too. Cuz two meals a day means..at least 15 hours no food... So as a poor person being in poverty teaches us lot of thing and needless again additionally stay in hunger and learn... Do you ever understand that my lovely people..
I don't blame rich at all.. They are rich and blessed and thats how life style is.. But rich person eat more and tummy full and fast.. When tummy full normally in my little experience I can skip food and drink easily for one day.. Cuz hunger never comes save sleep.. And specially if I had full of flesh instead of carbs.. And I feel so sad to those who in hot sun doing labor work.. And honestly they don't fast.. I checked.. They indeed doing that labor work to ease their hunger and not to be in hunger..
Allah never commanded to be in hunger.. I never believe it..
Siyam is beautiful practice of self Descipline regardless of rich or poor..cultivate it by freshening every month in case you deviated..but siyam is retribution for certain violations in life and reform those specific violations by being self control..
If skipping food and drink makes a person thathaqun and Ivan afraid all Muslim world is muththakun... That's a whopping lie..
I like your view, the steadfastness/discipline at times of hardships is the one required for us to come out of those difficult times.
I too have the idea, that fasting is not simply restricted to food alone, but primarily it starts with food.
Most of us revolves around with excesses of all kinds, be it rich or poor, these comes as a social practice, some may not follow or follow it as per their ableness.
I am thinking why the Islamic founders opted for a calendar to be solely based on moon is still not clear, as names like Rabi(spring that starts over march) should be spring months not the winter ones, possibly they want to remove all links of the religious events completely away from the preexisting practices that relied on sun/seasons or they thought its of no use to them or idolizing?
The sea farers, the farmers, the nomads in the desert, all need to adjust their activities based on the seasons, even our cleaning/repairing of the house if practiced on specific month, it will benefit?
Quote from: amin on March 11, 2024, 11:24:34 PMI like your view, the steadfastness/discipline at times of hardships is the one required for us to come out of those difficult times.
I too have the idea, that fasting is not simply restricted to food alone, but primarily it starts with food.
Most of us revolves around with excesses of all kinds, be it rich or poor, these comes as a social practice, some may not follow or follow it as per their ableness.
I am thinking why the Islamic founders opted for a calendar to be solely based on moon is still not clear, as names like Rabi(spring that starts over march) should be spring months not the winter ones, possibly they want to remove all links of the religious events completely away from the preexisting practices that relied on sun/seasons or they thought its of no use to them or idolizing?
The sea farers, the farmers, the nomads in the desert, all need to adjust their activities based on the seasons, even our cleaning/repairing of the house if practiced on specific month, it will benefit?
Thank you for your reply..
No.. It's not primarily start with food.. That's ritual fasting, but God's command to Siyam not with food.. No relation at all with food and sex.
Let me explain..
We are to reform at every given interval. Every month is assigned for that to check our evils which we committed specially as believer..ie self reform through self control ... This is the fundamental purpose and meaning of Siyam.. So we can repent, we can ask forgiveness we can reflect a lot based on our prior DEEDS before we forget so we PERCEIVE the CONSEQUENCES...
Got it?
But you may wonder then why Sex and food in verse2:187 is writtem.. Sex is special PERMISSION.... If Allah had forbidden food and drink in the verse 2:187, He would have worded probably the verse 2:187 as "Permitted for you nights Siyam food and drink and whatever the real verse states.. But it is not the case..
Entire verse 2:187 is concentrated on PERMISSION of Sex at night instead of day where you devoted with fundamental of Siyam. Though sex is part of life and normal it is forbidden in view of the fact it would not pave way to the person who reform and reflect on his past deeds to repent .. It's a distraction..
Note even at the end of the verse also Allah didn't say anything about food and drink and said not to near Sex alone.. And finished the verse saying that's LIMIT of Allah ..yes for the purpose of Siyam.. Clear?
Now in the middle of the verse it states like "So now enjoy and have relations with them.... Yes at night... And combined with it EAT and DRINK.. indeed this means Allah is telling them to be NORMAL and be HAPPY at night. Having food and drink and enjoying with wife is a normal life.. Indeed food and drink is a fundamental need of human being.. But eventually (hatta) when it is time to begin the process of self control from dawn to dusk you are not ALLOWED to approach wife and NOT food and drink.. Since food and drink was amalgamated with nearing wife, it is wrongly assumed that you have to skip food and drink as well while you steadfast. Nope...
Just focus on the verse 2:187 and its aim.. And its aim is only to herald a message to those who reform every month three days during ful moon is that YOU ARE PERMITTED sex at night.. And no other message... But NEVER approach while in Self control but only at night cuz it is LIMIT of Allah.. And the meaning of Siyam is well known to them to the audience of then by word itself and that's why Allah said "prescribed for you Siyam as it was prescribed before you" well familiar the word itself .. Though word siyam is plumetted loads of manipulations with time...
Same to Maryam.. Eat and drink.. ie.. Be normal .. Eating and drinking is indeed a normal life.. Isn't it? But do what one has to do to self to control / be Desciplined to recollect ones DEEDS of the past and thus PERCEIVE / EXPERIENCE ones CONSEQUENCES... Thats Siyam.. So 2:187 was just a PERMISSION during the night when you involved in self control process for specific reason...
Logically ponder.. Sex is direct barrier and not food and drink... Reflect people. Suppose you working on a very critical project which requires all sorts of concentrations.. Would food and drink be barrier while working on it or would sex be barrier... Your entire concentration could well and truly detached cuz it's a distraction of direct nature .
Quote from: jkhan on March 11, 2024, 09:17:05 PM5:95
" ..... or an expiation of feeding of needy people or the equivalent. (Dhalika) that is / such is Siyam (Self control /Self Descipline) , in order that he may experience / perceive consequence of his deed...."
Really I am astonished by this verse.
Context is your friend!
5:89 ...
so reparation its feeds group of ten who needy from average what thou feeding family yours
or clothe them
or liberate neck (captive/slave)
so who not find
so abstinence (fast) group of three days
such reparation right hands (oaths) yours
5:95 ...
so recompense same what killed from the cattle ...
or reparation feed who needy
or equitable
Dhālika/such
Şiyāmāan/abstinence
Liyadhūqa/to tasted consequence directive his
It depends on the size of the game killed. It's three days fasting or feed 10 needy individuals. The amount of meat obtained from large game can vary, but on average, a single large game animal, such as an Arabian oryx or Nubian ibex, could potentially provide enough meat to sustain several people for a significant period. Hence says two fair individuals to be judges on the matter.