I am going to apostate

[Wakas]

As I said, I cannot do it.

Correction: you choose not to do it.

Big difference between "I cannot do" and "I will not do".

The irony is what I said in those links is not really controversial and very little disagreement about it. It seems you are expecting to understand everything in Quran based islam in an instant manner. Doesn't work like that. Let me quote you something from my story:


Even though I had effectively accepted The Quran as the only source for Islam, I hadn't realised to what extent tradition/culture had been incorporated into everyday practice/beliefs. This point in the journey is not for the faint-hearted! Many Traditional Muslims will accept that not all Traditional Ahadith can be trusted (hence weak/strong classification etc) and most will state The Quran is the primary source but like many I had no idea that the Islam taught by The Quran was almost unrecogniseable to the Islam practiced today.
This is where many end the journey. This part requires someone to actively study/seek/research/question their own beliefs as well as their family/friends etc. It requires the breaking down of myths, embracing uncertainty, periods of confusion mixed with joy and clarity, rebuilding of ideas... who would want to put themselves through that? Not many. The more I researched, the more dissilusioned, confused, lost I became. It is important to point out it was not because it didn't make sense, it was because it was shaking my beliefs down to the ground. It was just so different and unexpected to what I had been taught. Slowly but surely I began to connect the dots and see the big picture. I now realise it was necessary to break down my beliefs and rebuild on a solid foundation [9:109]. Like most I started with a core starting point (belief in God) but had built upon it a mixture of Islam+tradition+culture+myths+hearsay+bias. This was not a solid strucutre, so I began to dismantle it using the ultimate falsehood smasher: The Quran. Akin to how a sculptor does not keep adding clay to his subject, actually, he strips away the inessentials until its true form is revealed, and the truth is beautiful.

[jkhan]

What about abortion before the fetus is formed ? When it remains just a mass of cell ?
I read some of the articles and they said alcohol is only forbidden if it causes intoxication. People can have one glass of red wine and can even use it in food
Other said that Allah made penis and vagina as the sex organ, so it is common sense Allah is only talking about vaginal sex in Quran and others prohibited. Also, there is a verse which said we should avoid indeceny which are both visible and hidden. They claim all kind of sex except vaginal sex and masturbation comes under hidden indecency.
Can you explain 4:16, isn't it talking about adultery and its punishment ?

As i said i have immense fear of misinterpreting laws of Allah and transgressing against Quran. At the same time it doesn't make sense to me either. I feel like instead of following Something wrong i should follow nothing at all. If monotheism is what the main message of Quran then I already believe in the day of Judgement and that God is one. I feel like the label of muslim is weighing down on me ( in today's time muslim doesn't mean submitter to God. Now it has taken a form of submitter to a specific religion called Islam. Now Islam doesn't just mean submission to God. It means submission to the Quran ). Plus muslims have a long way to go before they let go of arrogance and bullying. The mainstream muslims are sectarians. Forget about hadiths, if I try to explain my opinion on some verse of Quran they would start the name calling. These people have created such a bad image of Islam that i hate being associated with them. I donot fit in a sectarian world and the Quran alone is not doing it for me. I believe in God. I believe that Quran is the word of God. It's just that the words of God is not making any sense to me. I just dont want to end up in hell for abandoning Quran.

Dear, for this thread what you have written,  all I have to say is.. Don't find the rights and wrongs and beliefs of others,  try to find out how you unearth the right path for yourself .. It means logically try to find and be convinced that you are on right track .. Once you solve it,  you will know who is right and who is wrong (bit unnecessary but still you will know) .. At present you don't know where you stand when it comes to truth but keep saying about all other groups as if you have found the ultimate truth...
So all I can say is hunt for truth...
Coz God questions you.. You are responsible for your destiny..

[Anoushirvan]

Peace,

I'm going to apostate

That's ok, but depending where you live, and whether freedom of thought or freedom of religion is accepted or not, you might have to do "taqqyia" to dissimulate your disbelief like a person from the entourage of Pharaoh had to dissimulate his belief.

Quranism doesn't make sense to me.

Indeed it doesn't.

Neither does hadiths.

Indeed they don't.

(...) I read Quran but it doesn't do anything for me. I think the only thing that is stopping me is the fear of hell and say of Judgement. Can yall just tell me if i become a deist or monotheist but donot follow any religion ( not even Islam and Quran ) will i go to hell according to Quran ? I am just tired of not finding any answer from Quran.

I will tell you the source of your troubles, and it explains why you are neither satisfied by mainstream Islam nor by Quranism, and why it's understandable to feel troubles.

The source of the problems and the kind of questions you are raising deeply lies into the mainstream narrative of the origins of Qur'an and Islam.
According to this narrative, Prophet Muhammad received the Revelation of Allah, the Qur'an, to restore pure Abrahamic monotheism that was turned into polytheism by Quraysh at Mekka and to correct false Bible and false Gospels that were corrupted by Jews and Christians.
Then Prophet Muhammad had to wage jihad against a heterogeneous coalition of polytheists, Jews, and maybe Christians, who denied his revelation. He successfully regained Mekka. After his death, his successors, the four "righteous" caliphs continued his work in order to spread Islam in the world.

Nothing could be further from historical reality than this narrative.
First of all, there is no historical trace of Islam as religion, at least under the form we know today, during the major part of the 7th CE.
It's only at the end of the 7th CE that we start to see some historical artifacts that could be linked to an emerging Islam.

Joseph Schacht in his book, the Origins of the Muhammadean Jurisprudence, showed how the Islamic jurisprudence progressively emerged by the fusion of various traditions (the "sunnahs").
He also showed how the early scholars felt embarrassed by Qur'an as it often contradicted number of traditions that people felt to trace back to companions of the Prophet.

A bundle of clues therefore militates for a history of the origins of Qur'an far different from the mainstream Islamic narrative.

It is really unfortunate to read in this forum and other Qur'an alone writers so many prejudices and biases against the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, how those were corrupted by Jews and Christians despite total lack of proof, and despising the study of those Scriptures, even though Qur'an refers to those Scriptures and is unreadable without them.

None stands on anything solid about understanding Qur'an if he doesn't understand the ancient Jewish thought first.
It is this ancient Jewish thought that gives the enlightening to the kind of questions about Qur'an you are raising and more.

In addition, study of Gnosticism (e.g. http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm) reveals that the author (or maybe authorS) had particular acquaintances with a Gnostic milieu.
It is this Gnostic milieu that is qualified as "alladhina kafaru" in Qur'an, not polytheism. Historical studies show that polytheism was disappearing in Arabia at the end of the 6th CE, so if Allah decided to send a book to call polytheists to the true faith, why all this fuss for something on the point to vanish ? It would have sufficed for Allah to wait for a couple of years more.

It would be too long to explain why but in general, Qur'an was written because there was a revolution taking place in Middle East in the first half of the 7th CE, and favored by the weakening of the two great empires: the Byzantium and Persia. This revolution originated from a Gnostic milieu, and had messianic grounds (in the ancient Jewish thought, when the biggest empires are fighting each others, this is the prelude to the world to come / hereafter, i.e. the coming of the messianic era).

In this context, the author of Qur'an was a fierce opponent to the modalities of this revolution.
And because of this revolutionary context, the author of Qur'an is most particularly concerned with how to setup a correct ethics and laws (this is called the "din" in Qur'an), and that the direction ("huda") chosen by his opponents was, in his opinion, the wrong one.

Outside this particular revolutionary context in Arabia in the 7th CE, Qur'an hardly makes sense for practice and trying to apply it anyway leads to the kind of troubles you are experiencing.
Nevertheless, and provided it is correctly understood, Qur'an still remains an interesting treatise on how the establishment of the laws in a religious context to be read like any other treatise on that subject of Ancient times.

I just want to know whether a deist is also considered a believer according to Quran, or am I disbeliever for abandoning Quran but still believing in God ?

Well, the "alladhina kafaru" were not polytheists, they believed in the same god as the author of Qur'an. They just believed that salvation could only come by knowing intimately the invisible realm of god, and that this knowledge could only be gained through intermediate entities, like angels, jinns or even messengers. This is exactly the Gnostic faith.
In addition, Gnostics believed that this lowly world was inherently bad, and that anything that had as purpose to organize it was bad as well. And this includes laws.
For Gnostics, laws were certainly needed somehow, but they were a mean for the soul to remain attached to the lowly world and therefore prevent it to gain salvation through knowledge of the invisible world.

On the contrary, for the author of Qur'an, salvation must come through a correct ethics and laws and he explains at length that it is exactly what is explained in the past Scriptures that his opponents believed in.

As far as I'm concerned, I agree with the author of Qur'an that salvation of mankind comes through a correct ethics and that this ethics is not so simple to setup, but my difference is that the ethics advocated in Qur'an is simply completely outdated nowadays.

[Emre_1974tr]

Oh I am trying to read Quran everyday, but am I not reading the interpretation of Quran written by a man himself ?

Read only Quran.

Not interpretation. Not read false Bible (false Torah and Gospels.They are hadith boks).

Read only Quran please.

[Sania Haque]

Read only Quran.

Not interpretation. Not read false Bible (false Torah and Gospels.They are hadith boks).

Read only Quran please.

Huh ? What's the point of reading Quran if I'm not going to understand it ? I dont even know arabic ( i know how to read it but I don't understand it's meaning ) So i should just recite Quran without knowing what I am even reciting?

[good logic]

Peace Anoushirvan.
You say ,quote:
"It would be too long to explain why but in general, Qur'an was written because there was a revolution taking place in Middle East in the first half of the 7th CE, and favored by the weakening of the two great empires: the Byzantium and Persia. This revolution originated from a Gnostic milieu, and had messianic grounds (in the ancient Jewish thought, when the biggest empires are fighting each others, this is the prelude to the world to come / hereafter, i.e. the coming of the messianic era).

In this context, the author of Qur'an was a fierce opponent to the modalities of this revolution.
And because of this revolutionary context, the author of Qur'an is most particularly concerned with how to setup a correct ethics and laws (this is called the "din" in Qur'an), and that the direction ("huda") chosen by his opponents was, in his opinion, the wrong one.

Outside this particular revolutionary context in Arabia in the 7th CE, Qur'an hardly makes sense for practice and trying to apply it anyway leads to the kind of troubles you are experiencing.
Nevertheless, and provided it is correctly understood, Qur'an still remains an interesting treatise on how the establishment of the laws in a religious context to be read like any other treatise on that subject of Ancient times."

I have few questions for you if you do not mind:
1- Who wrote(authored) Qoran and where exactly in the middle east? Please provide some kind of solid evidence ?
2- Give a brief history of the author who was a fierce opponent of the modality of this revolution?
3-Was Qoran then just for that era?
4- How can Qoran be correctly understood by everybody like you seem to suggest?
Thank you in advance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Sania Haque.
Here is a list of the problems I had with Qoran that I am trying to solve for at least 10/11 years:

1-Why so many different interpretations? Where is the easy/straight forward interpretation that some of  its verses talk about?
2- Why send Qoran in Arabic only when it is intended for all the world? Is that fair on the French,English...etc?
3-Why does GOD not send it to us straight to our brains/mind individually like the instinct of right and wrong?
4-How can GOD expect us to work with Him when we cannot see or communicate( I thought that was not possible) with Him?
5-Why am I drawn to this book when I try to read it? Why even bother with it if it is not making sense to me now?
6- Why am I frustrated with this book,I wish I never set eyes on it? Why waste my time and effort ,I have a life to lead and friends to keep?

And the questions kept rolling every time I picked Qoran to have another browse:
7-Why am I even bothering even picking it up when I still see no sense with the majority of its verses?

After few weeks I am back to picking this book again,just  to make sure a "eurika moment" appear  or like I am developing a conscious towards "at least have another look"

Then my questions took a different approach and I started again:
1-Who am I and why am I a human?
2- What am I suppose to do/my purpose and who put me here /created all this?
3- why this way?

All I can say now is that the contents are now directing my curiosity and questions, I am hooked ,I have to study this book and try my best to really see what it is saying to me.
Yes, it felt like I am now becoming engaged in a long conversation with this book. That took a little more than two years. I felt like it was written for me to wrestle with it.
I came to a conclusion that I cannot leave it until I am satisfied and can prove that it is a lot of nonsense.
Or this book is really from outer space by another intelligence.

Here are more questions for more choices with Qoran:
1- Why believe Qoran is from GOD if you do not believe GOD?
2-Either believe or do not believe,but be true to yourself and use your GOD given faculties in your life to reflect on your choices and decisions with or without Qoran?
3-Why be afraid of GOD or sanctions from GOD if you cannot connect with GOD or His message?
4-- Why do salat if you do not know what it is or benefit from it? After all who are you fooling?
5- why follow any law if you do not agree with it or are not forced either by choice or system? I do not see GOD forcing anyone,nor do .I see GOD taking any choices from humans,but I see communities and human systems do that?

I find it an individual task,journey  that each has to take . Iman grows and with it our soul. GOD feeds the soul according to its limitation/capacity and choice to grow. Or GOD does not interfere at all if the soul takes that choice and stays undernourished.

I  also find Qoran to be tailored for my limitation and I have no knowledge of where this limitation goes up to. Each one of us ,if they want to feed their soul,they will  find that GOD has "catered"/"tailored" for their needs in the Message . "La  Wukallifu ALLH Nafsan Illa Wusaaha".
Leave or take. Your choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Fadiva]

Read only Quran.

Not interpretation. Not read false Bible (false Torah and Gospels.They are hadith boks).

Read only Quran please.

Salam,

I think she is trying to say that when reading the translation of quran, she is reading the interpretaion of one man. I think she can't read and understand arabic,
and I feel the same, with translation we can have the understanding of his author: in translations we have a few differences.
When saying "read only Quran please" are you talking about a translated one ? If she doesn't understand arabic how can she understand the verses in al quran ?
And even after learning arabic, she can encouter different meanings for one word  and some meanings have probably changed with time.
And yes we can compare all the occurences of words in the Quran to set a meaning, I think.

She said she is confused and fear to wrong herself reading quran (translations) that why she wonders if she can only believe in God without reading quran as she can't understand the arabic understood by the people to which the quran was sent at that time.  Telll me if I am wrong, Sania Haque.

I experienced that, with fear and no confidence, it's difficult to move forward.

If everybody here understood the messages of God, they would agree. But it is not the case, and I think she fears to follow something wrong by misunderstanding al quran as she noticed here that people disagree.

The fear of hell prevents her from  giving all up. However she is very confused and suffers to the extend of thinking to abandon. Aren't you Sania ?

May Allah guide us.

[good logic]

Peace Fadiva/Sania Haque.

I will address this to both your query.
I understand what you are both saying,. I had the same issue when I started. Why Arabic and what about those that do not understand Arabic?

All I could do at first is look at different translation and see if it makes sense to me.
Then I challenged GOD to guide me. Once I realised who GOD, I could not ignore  the all powerful ,the ever living ,the all knowing.... I either had to take the journey on GOD s side with GOD s help or ditch the idea of struggling by myself.
Or is GOD not capable and sufficient for the servant?
Of course one has to be patient and tried for their honesty and true conviction. But GOD has promised help and support and GOD fulfills all the promises.

I am not saying I understand all Qoran and I am where in the journey, I am saying this journey with GOD has to be taken by each individual and will be ongoing.
All I can do is give my own understanding and views but it needs to be checked  and resonate or not. with others. That is fine we humans have different views/tastes and are at different parts of the journey.
Patience and perseverance and trust in GOD are key.
For the moment try different translations and compare where your understanding is and move according to your satisfaction and comfort.
Or take a different course in life without GOD or Qoran or anything that don t make sense to you. Be honest with yourself. Get to know yourself properly.
GOD bless you both.
Peace.

[Fadiva]

Peace Good logic,

I ask the God to forgive me, to guide me and help me to understand what is not totally clear about some practices. I hope and I trust and praise Allah.
I agree with you.
I can only advice Sania the same and of course to be patient.

God bless you.