The Quranic Society (Please Read This)

[Damon]

Peace everyone,

My wife and I were chatting and I got to thinking about HOW we can establish a society that is based on quranic guidelines. Then I started thinking....it is the principles, morals and etiquettes of the quran that is to be established.

Please think about this!! We are not obligated to come in the name of the quran, we are obligated to come in the name of morality, righteousness, principle and civility. These are the etiquettes that the quran points out.

So instead of establishing a movement and/or organization based on the quran (at least by name or label), we should be establishing something based on the principles that the quran directs us towards. This is how we can establish a quranic society in a subtle, yet very effective, way.

Instead of saying  "we represent the quran and the quran says this is how we are to live our family lives, this is how we are to deal with our spouses and children, this is how we're supposed to promote morality in our society, etc.", we should just do the work needed to establish these ideals.

I believe Layth's work The Natural Republic is a good starting point for ideas to try and implement.

Simply put, instead of throwing the Quran and Islam (by name) down people's throats we should take Nike's advice and Just Do It!!

I'd appreciate all feedback, thoughts and suggestions.

This is My path-a straight one. You shall follow it, and do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from His commandments to you, that you may be saved.
[6:153]

Salaam.

[zenje]

Salaam Bro,

You got it!  Remember the guy I told you about person who's held lectures inviting others to the path? Most of the time he doesn't even quote verses. He can talk for an hour and tell you only of what's in the quran, and people (of various religions) wouldnt know it. In the end, most of the people he talks to, end up changing their 'ways' to the system of GOD alone.


The Message (why we're here) is important... the rest is details.

Peace.

[salikahDC]

Yep! I think that highlighting the principles of the Qur'an instead of the Qur'an itself is great outreach strategy.  Once you mention Qur'an, people's mindsets automatically switch to religious mode (maybe even our own).  This automatically creates barriers and causes people to become defensive, or dismissive, or suspicious, or whatever.


my personal experience: When I am discussing with people, I intentionally do not mention the qur'an (despite the fact that I try to base my principles and idealogies on this Guide).  If the person is intrigued, they usually inquire where and how I came up with a specific concept or idealogy.  This is when I let the cat out of the bag! I found that discussions of the Qur'an after inquiry of interest are much more productive than when I throw  the word Qur'an in their face without initial explanation.  

Here's the funny thing:  Their response is usually something like: "Salikah, how can you follow the Qur'an? You are so progressive.  You're not submissive like other muslim women.  I didn't take you for the religious type."

And that's when the qur'an discussion begins.  If they don't ask, I rarely tell... :wink:

[Ali Omar]

Dear Damon, zenje, alikahDC,

It feels good reading your posts, and other similar ones.
You hit the nail on the head and I couldn?t agree more.

The guidance, the message, the principles, that God points out for us is the main thing. We can read the Qur?an a thousand times but still not get it, but once the basics of the whole message begin to hit home, the reason for it and implementation of it becomes clearer.
It is our ways that must adapt to the rest of the Universe, for everything and everyone to have a best possible existence. If you find this guide lines in some other way, fine, that is not the issue.
That is also why I couldn?t agree to the label ?Qur?an alone? in an earlier discussion.

Thank you all for these posts!

Best regards

Ali Omar

[Nural Amin]

Peace,

I like the idea, but it's not right to deceive people because we do have a lot to do with the Quran and the gathering might also be alot to do with Quran.

A better way is to welcome all forms of wisdom, whether from Bible, Torah, Hindu Scripture etc, things that make sense, this will bring about a sense of unity, there is no harm in this as long as limits are not transgressed and we need to remember that Quran is a beacon and a mercy but not the only way in which God teaches us or communicates to us.  The signs and lessons are everywhere in his Creations.

Main aims are to disown the backward religious ways and to assert and make clear that our interests are in Truth, rightousness and progression and anything else you mentioned.

I hate the separation and tension between people that don't follow the same thing, aslong as we all believe in rightousness there should be no barriers the path should be there for us all.

Nural

[Damon]

Salaam everybody,

Thank you for the feedback and advice.

I think that highlighting the principles of the Qur'an instead of the Qur'an itself is great outreach strategy. Once you mention Qur'an, people's mindsets automatically switch to religious mode (maybe even our own). This automatically creates barriers and causes people to become defensive, or dismissive, or suspicious, or whatever.

This is an excellent way of putting it and one of the key points that I was driving at. You presented it perfectly.

I like the idea, but it's not right to deceive people because we do have a lot to do with the Quran

I have to say that I disagree with your assesment. I cannot see where deception[/u] or dishonesty is practised in this strategy. Something very important salikahDC said is that she will drop wisdom on someone and when they ask where she got it, she tells them The Quran. Deception would be to not mention The Quran, but to give the credit to a different source instead for fear of rejection or dismissal.

What I am advocating is a movement pushing the morals, guidelines and principles of The Quran. As I mentioned earlier, we are not commanded by GOD to shove the book itself down people's throats. We are commanded to invite others to embrace the guidelines and morals  that the book itself promotes.

and the gathering might also be alot to do with Quran.

Oh you who believe,when the salat is called to at the time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the rememberance of GOD, and cease all selling. This is better for you , if you only knew.
[62:9]

I want to point out two things....

1). This verse is directed to the people who believe. Believe in what?? Believe in GOD. We cannot feed people The Quran if they don't even believe in GOD who revealed The Quran. That would be putting the cart before the horse. What we need to do is present the morals and principles of The Quran to others so that they will become believers. We cannot force people to observe salat if they are not believers. They have to be believers first and see the importance of salat for themselves.

2). This verse only applies to believers who are present at the time of gathering. This is a very isolated type of event. Not common at all.

A better way is to welcome all forms of wisdom, whether from Bible, Torah, Hindu Scripture etc, things that make sense,

On the surface, that's a beautiful idea, but we have to keep in mind that many of the ideas in those other books are questionable because they were not protected against corruption as the Quran is. Whatever good you can find in these other books, The Quran has already given us, plus much, much more!

we need to remember that Quran is a beacon and a mercy but not the only way in which God teaches us or communicates to us. The signs and lessons are everywhere in his Creations.

Great! You just re-iterated what I have been saying all along. We are not duty bound to throw the book itself in people's faces, but to invite them to the signs and lessons the book presents. And as you yourself just said, these signs and lessons are everywhere in GOD's creations. It is the signs and lessons that we are obligated to invite towards. This is more important than the book which guides towards the signs and lessons. Hey, the sunnis and shiahs are all into The Book. However, they are totally oblivious to the signs, lessons and principles as is apparent.

Main aims are to disown the backward religious ways and to assert and make clear that our interests are in Truth, rightousness and progression and anything else you mentioned.

Again, this is a re-iteration of what I have already proposed in my opening post.

I hate the separation and tension between people that don't follow the same thing, aslong as we all believe in rightousness there should be no barriers the path should be there for us all.

Same thing...a re-iteration of my proposal.

And who is better in saying than one who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says: "I am one of those who have surrendered."
[41:33]

We will show them OUR SIGNS in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
[41:53]

Salaam.

[sytalls]

Peace all.

Damon, you expressed more clearly what I was trying to say on the "good muslim" thread. And I wholeheartedly agree with you.

So, Ali Omar, we were close in our thoughts! Except for my reason for taking on a label that you disagree with.  

It might help to know that I live in a rural farming community in the Bible Belt of the Southern US.  There is no way to tell from my outward appearance what my religious views might be. So I'm very aware of how I conduct my life, so that when I do have the chance to tell people that I'm muslim, they want to know more. They see someone who looks and acts like they do, and who has a similar religious backgound, so they want to know why I would choose a different path.

But I almost never quote The Quran to these people and, instead, speak of general concepts and similarities in beliefs about ways to treat people, prophets, and the like.  The reason I do this is because people are resistant. They don't mind hearing about my beliefs, but it takes time for them to be receptive to listening to a quote from The Quran. It's as if they are afraid I'm going to say something that will be blasphemous to their Christian beliefs.

After some time, then they're no longer afraid. There are certain friends with whom I can share passages in The Quran as we talk about spiritual matters. As long as we go in with an understanding that we avoid the issue of Jesus' divinity, the conversations can often be spiritually nourishing and supportive.

Since I chose to follow The Quran only and not cover my head or change my name or (name pretty much any 'rules' complaint here) within a couple of years of choosing Islam, I wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms by any muslim community. That was a long time ago. I have no muslim friends (or submitters or whatever you want to call them), so I hope all of you will be patient with me when I discuss things here.

You speak in ways I'm accustomed to, discussing things by using specific ayats or citing works I'm not familiar with, as well as going over issues I'd never considered before.  It's very refreshing, and I cried when I found this place...and, yep, also through my first couple of posts. Okay, I have to stop now or I'll start crying just thinking about the crying.

But to get back to Damon's topic...from my experience, what you are proposing has worked very well toward promoting understanding and interest and reaching out to those who may open their hearts to God's Message.

[Damon]

Peace all,

Peace sytalls and thank you for your wisdom and kind words.

But to get back to Damon's topic...from my experience, what you are proposing has worked very well toward promoting understanding and interest and reaching out to those who may open their hearts to God's Message.

Yes, please allow me to elaborate a bit on what it is exactly that I'm proposing....

Here in the United States I am witnessing right before my very eyes the deterioration of society and of the human family. The public schools are terrible with shootings and bullying going on. The kids these days have absolutely no respect whatsoever. And today's music and media are beyond terrible. Homosexuailty is becoming more and more rampant as well as pedophiles, pornography, rape, murder, incest, corporate and government corruption.

It is my personal belief that we need to address the family. If we can reach the family and implement a sound strategy which instills Quranic morals in the family social setting, this will prepare todays kids to be tomorrows leaders and exemplars. We need to tackle the lack of proper upbringing, child abuse, spousal abuse, drugs and alcohol and the all too rampant trend of children having to grow up without fathers or male role models. The criminal justice system here is completely corrupt.

Don't get me wrong...I understand that there are thousands of people and groups that seek to tackle these very things. Unfortunately, their attempts turn out to be futile due to what they seek to establish as alternatives to these dilemmas. This is not a blow towards Christians, but I believe that the reason they have faild in their attempts to get more people in the church as an alternative to these ills and woes is the same reason that the traditional muslims have failed in their attempts to establish Masjid life as an alternative. It is unrealistic, unsound, impractical and all too easy to see through their hypocrisy.

So what I say we do is to look at ALL of the principles and guidelines that The Quran mandates and we start an organization that not only pushes for these principles to become the new order of the day, but one which actually implements a strategy and takes appropriate action to see this strategy through. I think Layth presents some solid ideals in The Natural Republic. In a nutshell more or less, this is what I believe to be the correct course of action to take.

The only people who will take this seriously and actually seek to do this are those who look around them and have decided that enough is enough and they cannot take anymore.

Salaam.

[Nural Amin]

Peace Damon,

My point is if you want to promote Quranic morals and not anything else from OTHER Scriptures which are also mentioned within the Quran then it is only right and truthful to make that clear.

On the surface, that's a beautiful idea, but we have to keep in mind that many of the ideas in those other books are questionable because they were not protected against corruption as the Quran is. Whatever good you can find in these other books, The Quran has already given us, plus much, much more!

This is very narrow-minded and ignorant, have you read all the other books?  The Quran is complete that is God's revelations are complete, people can't even agree on what exactly the Quran is!  You are clinging onto a book too much here.  You are making many assumptions and claims here, many people would disagree.  I agree that the Quran is full of guidance but I don't think this is the best approach to society.

Just because a book has 'divine protection' doesn't mean that we have the best meaning, we should be open minded and we might discover and learn more about the reading if we keep open, other Scriptures might relate to this one and help explain something that wasn't as easily understood before.  Plus the Quran is basically a composition of KEY LAWS and the BASICS which is common sense and should be obeyed by all but the SCRIPTURE is different and should be left open and the Scripture can be used to confuse people.  First distinguish which parts of the book are QURAN and self explanatory and which should be left open.

In that case I would agree in promoting QURANIC LAWS and by that I do not mean the whole BOOK that is known as Quran today.  Recent research and also signs in the Book have shown us that the whole book consists of two parts and one part can mislead if we aren't careful.

I would personally prefer the gathering to be open to all forms of wisdom, the Quran is complete but there are believers that accept other Scriptures too.  I personally think this is a big issue because you are talking about promoting what is in Quran (which is all that is NECESSARY for success) but your not interested in anything else, what if the Bible has some interesting lessons?  Doesn't the Quran tell us to accept all of God's revelations?  Making it Quran alone makes it kind of extreme and closed rather than open minded.  Aslong as the Quranic moral and laws are not transgressed I see no problem, obviously we should keep close to this text but that doesn't mean that you should reject all else!  Everyone at the gathering would then be able to participate with wotever knowledge they have, not everyone has spent time on studying the Quran, we should hear all the ways and lessons and follow the best.

Wasn't the initial approach meant to make clear that you disown other sects and groups?  This approach doesn't do that because you place an unjust limit by only promoting Quranic laws that is the Arabic Word of God, Christians wouldn't be so happy, jewish people wouldn't celebrate.  I prefer open mindedness and also more use of our own intution, the book is there but we also have our head which God gave to us too.  This would bring more unity and unity is key and what makes a society stronger and safer.

Nural

[salikahDC]

peace damon, nural amin and all,

Nural amin,

Your previous post personifies the very religious discussions that Damon and I are trying to initially avoid.  The debate over spiritual texts, what book came first and when, believers, non believers of the Qur'an, etc...all this is a wonderful discussion if someone is open to participating in a religious debate.  But we are talking about advocating the rules, laws, and suggestions of the Qur'an without initially attacking someone's religious belief.  This way, you are being extremely respectful of the various paths and cultures of mankind.  Just as they have the right to reject the divinity of the Qur'an, people have the right to reject its wisdom as well.  Its their choice and their life.  I am only responsible for my reality and they are responsible for theirs.  But if people want to discuss my reality and ideology, I'll discuss.  Likewise, if persons want to discuss where I got my knowledge, I'll discuss that too.

I am of the school that the qur'an should not be idolized and is not the only path to the Truth...but it is a guide that I have found to have no flaws in my reality thus far so I am not afraid to live by and promote its suggestions...I made the choice to search for the Truth and the God alone has guided me....the qur'an is just a tool along the way of this path. If the God willed, I may have consulted another source in the universe.  If the God wills, I still may!    Its God's system (equal access to resources, family cohesion and structure, free trade, etc) that I want to initially discuss, not religion (or, in my opinion, the need for no religion).