Author Topic: How can hadiths replace verses ?  (Read 923 times)

Fadiva

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How can hadiths replace verses ?
« on: December 09, 2020, 07:22:20 AM »
Salam aleykoum,

In my knowledge some muslims think that some verses abrogate others according to one translation of one verse.
So, if we follow this logic, only verses from quran can replace others verses, right ?

So which verse replace the verses dealing with the cleaning before salat ? : washing face, hands to elbows, wipe head and feet.

Are some hadiths considered as verses ?

I mean, has someone had  answers to those questions from a scholar or a "suni" muslim who don't clean the way it is described in al quran ?
If yes, what were the answers ?

Wakas

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2020, 11:18:54 AM »
peace,

I think they would probably say the alleged sunnah adds detail to the ablution verses (i.e. it's not abrogation) and may even admit the extra steps are not necessary but when asked if they would be happy to do ablution as per Quran (without those extra steps) or is it acceptable to do it as per Quran they will almost certainly say no or be reluctant to answer.

When it comes to the claim of abrogation, just ask how many verses are abrogated? There is no consensus among Traditionalists. It ranges from a few to a few hundred.
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good logic

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2020, 03:06:36 PM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say quote:

"So, if we follow this logic, only verses from quran can replace others verses, right ?"

Here are some questions I would ask those who claim abrogation:
How can we even contemplate this kind of logic?Does GOD change His mind? Why would GOD replace a verse  after sending it to the messenger with another?
What happens to the verse that is being changed?Does GOD takes it back? Why is it still in Qoran? Why are we required to believe in all Qoran ?
  Which verses  are telling us GOD replaces some verses with others?

 I asked about abrogation  some of those who believe it but no one has given me a reasonable answer .. Some claim this verse 16:101:

When we substitute one revelation in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, "You made this up!" Indeed, most of them do not know.
وَإِذا بَدَّلنا ءايَةً مَكانَ ءايَةٍ وَاللَّهُ أَعلَمُ بِما يُنَزِّلُ قالوا إِنَّما أَنتَ مُفتَرٍ بَل أَكثَرُهُم لا يَعلَمونَ

I  say to them that it means the above and I give them the proof -the replacement here is the new revelation of Qoran- is  the following verse16:102:

Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the Muslimeen."
قُل نَزَّلَهُ روحُ القُدُسِ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَهُدًى وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

 And I confirm for them the requirement to believe every verse of the Qoran 16:104-105:
Surely, those who do not believe in God's revelations, God does not guide them. They have incurred a painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ لا يَهديهِمُ اللَّهُ وَلَهُم عَذابٌ أَليمٌ
The only ones who fabricate false doctrines are those who do not believe in God's revelations; they are the real liars.
إِنَّما يَفتَرِى الكَذِبَ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الكٰذِبونَ

Abrogation  is simply a fabrication to justify the hadith contradictions.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

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jkhan

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2020, 08:27:58 AM »
Salam aleykoum,

In my knowledge some muslims think that some verses abrogate others according to one translation of one verse.
So, if we follow this logic, only verses from quran can replace others verses, right ?

So which verse replace the verses dealing with the cleaning before salat ? : washing face, hands to elbows, wipe head and feet.

Are some hadiths considered as verses ?

I mean, has someone had  answers to those questions from a scholar or a "suni" muslim who don't clean the way it is described in al quran ?
If yes, what were the answers ?

As we all know that Hadith followers will take anything from Quran to substantiate their claim to go inline with hadith..
This abrogation is also one of those attempt.. The one who is guided by God with Quran will easily comprehend what is truth..

God definitely replace verses or modify according to the need of the community.. Remember Quran is the complete of revelations.. Whatever revealed before were targeted certain communities in general.. Not exempted quran either.. Though the core message of any God revealed book is for entire human being and Jin.. But,  those who were given revelations before Quran also were living with the people to whome Quran was revealed.. So when changes seen in Quran was not acceptable for some.. Quran changed many a rules.. For example certain things prohibited in previous books were made lawful.. So clear replacement of verses.. Even Ramadhan verses.. Etc etc.. There could be many new rules or additions to old rules.. That we don't know unless we have exact copy/ies of previous books..

So.. There is no abrogation within Quran but God has definitely replaced verses to best suit to complete His series of revelations...

Fadiva

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2020, 11:17:56 AM »
peace,

When it comes to the claim of abrogation, just ask how many verses are abrogated? There is no consensus among Traditionalists. It ranges from a few to a few hundred.

Peace Wakas

and which are the ones abrogated...
from a few to a few hundred: this makes a big difference.

Fadiva

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2020, 11:26:53 AM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say quote:

"So, if we follow this logic, only verses from quran can replace others verses, right ?"

Here are some questions I would ask those who claim abrogation:
How can we even contemplate this kind of logic?Does GOD change His mind? Why would GOD replace a verse  after sending it to the messenger with another?
What happens to the verse that is being changed?Does GOD takes it back? Why is it still in Qoran? Why are we required to believe in all Qoran ?
  Which verses  are telling us GOD replaces some verses with others?

 I asked about abrogation  some of those who believe it but no one has given me a reasonable answer .. Some claim this verse 16:101:

When we substitute one revelation in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, "You made this up!" Indeed, most of them do not know.
وَإِذا بَدَّلنا ءايَةً مَكانَ ءايَةٍ وَاللَّهُ أَعلَمُ بِما يُنَزِّلُ قالوا إِنَّما أَنتَ مُفتَرٍ بَل أَكثَرُهُم لا يَعلَمونَ

I  say to them that it means the above and I give them the proof -the replacement here is the new revelation of Qoran- is  the following verse16:102:

Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the Muslimeen."
قُل نَزَّلَهُ روحُ القُدُسِ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَهُدًى وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

 And I confirm for them the requirement to believe every verse of the Qoran 16:104-105:
Surely, those who do not believe in God's revelations, God does not guide them. They have incurred a painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ لا يَهديهِمُ اللَّهُ وَلَهُم عَذابٌ أَليمٌ
The only ones who fabricate false doctrines are those who do not believe in God's revelations; they are the real liars.
إِنَّما يَفتَرِى الكَذِبَ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الكٰذِبونَ

Abrogation  is simply a fabrication to justify the hadith contradictions.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace good logic

Those are good questions.

in different translations , for "ayatin " : we can find verse, revelation or sign.

If we choose revelation, we can understand that the previous revelations (in previous books) were replaced, indeed But is that so ?


And I have heard that some hadiths are considered to be revelations of Allah.

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2020, 10:24:17 AM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say quote:
"And I have heard that some hadiths are considered to be revelations of Allah."

As far as we are concerned , We should believe GOD 100%. GOD said all we need for our salvation is  Qoran, :
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quoan has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ

This verse clearly indicates to us that Quran is the only source of religious guidance. Anything else we take as revelation from other sources will be against what GOD is saying here. i.e taking on other authority/god which is idolatry.
Or did GOD forget to mention other revelation not in Qoran? GOD could have said :"This Qoran and the other revelations in hadith?"
I am sure you are aware of this I was only clarifying  for the purpose of answering those who claim other revelations besides Qoran exist.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Fadiva

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Re: How can hadiths replace verses ?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 04:35:47 AM »
Peace,

While wanting to ask question about traditional ablutions in a forum named "yabiladi"I found this question already asked by a member a few years ago and the answers (from different members)are :

- you have the fardhs in the Quran and the sunnan and as you know it is preferable to follow the sunna and the fardhs.
-while doing ablution according to sunna we surely do it according to the Qurqan
-why following sunna in this context is bad? The Quran gives clear instructions which are respected by the sunna
-the verse is clear, the face include eyes, nose and mouth and she adds two slice of verses from the Quran telling we must obey Allah and the messenger and conclude : "There is the Holy Quran which has been send to us but the prophet shows us how to practice rituals. "
- she is explaining to us that we should follow the way that is vaguely explained on the Quran and giving up the way that the one thought as if the prophet didn't understand what the Quran encompasses.
- Of course we have to follow the method applied by the prophet
-Look, being Muslim is believing in Allah and his prophet. If you obsession is to destroy the Sunna and rewriting Islam you are in trouble.
- who is the prophet Muhammad for you?
- By applying this hadith we apply this verse because Othmane's ablutions don't contradict the verse of the Quran
The face, the nose, the mouth, the ears are parts of the head.
- neither the hajj rituals are in the Quran, they were given by the prophet
.....

Then she was accused of pouring her hatred on sunis and sowing fitna.
That she had several accounts and was in fact an atheist against Islam...

She said that the verse is clear. She said also that she was accused of "innovation" while doing "ablutions" the way it is mentioned in al Quran.

The verse is clear, how can't a person see it as clear?
I realize that some people just don't want to follow just what they call fardhs in al Quran here but need other details. Hadiths are really important to them and I read someone telling the Quran and the Sunna (Hadiths) are  inseparable.

Here the link, but it's in French.

https://www.yabiladi.com/forum/ablutions-dans-coran-sunna-80-9814042-page=1.html

Roughly in another site about Islam it is said that there are 3 proofs of ablution:
From the Quran, from Hadiths, from muslims.