:: Was Muhammed name of a Prophet? ::

[huruf]

then what could be more fair than placing the Signs in the world all around you. Very straightforward, Subhan'Allah.

I think it goes deeper than that.

Everything that exists, exists only because God makes it exist out of Its own existence. Nothing is of itself. So it is only logical that everything that exists has His imprint. Nothing can be straneous to Him or come as a surprise or without His names on it. Therefore we recognize, because we also belong in that existence which is His existence.

Nothing exists that is not a sign of His.

The Qur'an is a sign for people who reflect. We may use scholars or we may not, we reflect. We may use one scholar and not the rest. We may think somebody is a scholar and disagree with the rest of the world on that. We reflect. We must reflect if we must learn from God's ayas. And more than scholar we need righteous and sincere people, whether scholars or beggars. Knowledge is not the same thing as scholarship. Virtue is not the same thing as scholarship. And virtue is not learnt by reading scholars, but by following good examples and, above all, by believing in it from the heart.

Adn as per the Qur'an: wherever you turn is the face of Allah. Everything helps and scholars may help, but God there is only one, and of each of us there is only one. Each one must do his or her own reflection, and the best reflection comes from sincerity, from one's own heart that we try to purify as m?s as we can. That task we cannot delegate. It is ours. It is our responsibility. Howe we do it is also our responsibility and our task, and for that we have to know ourselves or try to. It is us who must change, evolve, develop, even more than we may try to change, eolve or develop the world. If we do not have power over ourselves, what can we do for others. However, since we are not isolated beings, the best and most productive is that we deal with each other, and learn from others aobut ourselves. Like the river stones, we shape by rubbing and clashing with the others, and we become polished.

Salaam   

[supportpeacenotwar]

Peace huruf,

My point about Signs in the world around us/within ourselves (I should have included that bit as well, it was late, cut me some slack! ) is really about quoting the Quran without actually quoting it. My point was not to limit the Signs of Allah or say that it isn't deep. The point was directly in relation to the times I have seen many atheists mock the idea that things like the day or night, that stars set in motion, other natural phenomenon that are mentioned in the Quran such as the movement of clouds and so on, that this is all too simple to be a sign of God. That's the direct point I was addressing so it seemed most appropriate to put it like that. Especially since the Quran uses the type of terminology in translation - of Signs of Allah in the world and in themselves.

I agree with you that all of existence reflects God's existence because its made by Him. I made a similar point about God's Signs manifesting on every level in another thread. http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605300.msg326341#msg326341

[The_Chimp]

I think it goes deeper than that.

Everything that exists, exists only because God makes it exist out of Its own existence. Nothing is of itself. So it is only logical that everything that exists has His imprint. Nothing can be straneous to Him or come as a surprise or without His names on it. Therefore we recognize, because we also belong in that existence which is His existence.

Nothing exists that is not a sign of His.

The Qur'an is a sign for people who reflect. We may use scholars or we may not, we reflect. We may use one scholar and not the rest. We may think somebody is a scholar and disagree with the rest of the world on that. We reflect. We must reflect if we must learn from God's ayas. And more than scholar we need righteous and sincere people, whether scholars or beggars. Knowledge is not the same thing as scholarship. Virtue is not the same thing as scholarship. And virtue is not learnt by reading scholars, but by following good examples and, above all, by believing in it from the heart.

Adn as per the Qur'an: wherever you turn is the face of Allah. Everything helps and scholars may help, but God there is only one, and of each of us there is only one. Each one must do his or her own reflection, and the best reflection comes from sincerity, from one's own heart that we try to purify as m?s as we can. That task we cannot delegate. It is ours. It is our responsibility. Howe we do it is also our responsibility and our task, and for that we have to know ourselves or try to. It is us who must change, evolve, develop, even more than we may try to change, eolve or develop the world. If we do not have power over ourselves, what can we do for others. However, since we are not isolated beings, the best and most productive is that we deal with each other, and learn from others aobut ourselves. Like the river stones, we shape by rubbing and clashing with the others, and we become polished.

Salaam

Salam,

This is more pretence. Meaningless sanctimony and preaching. Look at the issue above. A person has posted ignorance - and you are claiming we don't need scholarship? I am sorry, but that is against logic and basic common sense. It is absolute basic - to understand Quran at first hand, you need to know Arabic. 

There is no getting around the issue. Else - you end up making some pretty horrendous mistakes. I mean, think about it, here is a book you consider to be divine word of God, written in Arabic, and you cannot be bothered to learn it. What do you do? Make petty excuses. Isn't that just dishonest.

But, one would expect, that the "quran-only" would be foremost in knowing Arabic and the Quran, and that just isn't the case.

[supportpeacenotwar]

Salam,

Did you by any chance miss the fact that Mr Khan made basic errors and has been unable to defend other than making

Salaam,

Interesting you pick up on this post of mine, but don't respond to the posts I made that directly addressed you earlier about hadith and everything. I'm only mentioning this because of the tone I'm getting from you. Then again, maybe those discussions would get TOO drawn out and the discussion wears itself down so it might be for the best. Especially if you continue to discuss this way.

Sorry, but I haven't been reading all the posts, that caught my attention because I believe one does not need much or any knowledge in Arabic in order to understand the central principles Quran. I agree that it is important to understand that translations are limited and that sometimes the Arabic is not translated well. But for all the central and primary principles of Islam, I believe we have them already and the Quran is just a reinforcer and reminder, yet another blessings - I'm sure you agree - that God swt will bestow knowledge and understanding upon those seek guidance.

Was it not you who said

Are these 'signs' of yours not from Satan?

What? Can you explain this? I don't say things are from Satan, and in fact I've said that several times on this forum.

If you cannot understand Arabic, then you rely on those who do.

Brother, my whole point is about relying on God. Knowledge of Arabic is nice and all but its not necessary. The central principles of faith are laid out in the Quran. Believe in The Deity, the last day, and do good. That is all about 'salvation' as some put it but I don't really use that term.

Yes, by reading translations. But if you get bare basics wrong, yet have the audacity and stupidity to preach sheer ignorance, then you are not being "guided". This is about basic honesty and truth. Mr Khan knows he is wrong and he does not understand Arabic and he knows he cannot defend his ignorance. Yet, it appears, he also lacks  the basic honesty, humility and truthfulness to admit it and stop spreading ignorance.

You have the audacity to say you know the Quran but then you use language and a demeanour like this. I see this is clearly what you learnt was acceptable from the Quran when you read it in Arabic? Calling people stupid, ignorant. My point was not about Mr Khan, I just thought of some points based on what he said.

No, on evidence, it is not easy, far from it. Risalah is/was and absolute basic principles of Islam. Look at it? It has been ripped to absolute shreds. With what? With absolute nonsense and sheer ignorance. When mistakes are pointed out, what happens? People start spouting meaningless moralising verses about irrelevant and different subject. Why?

The rest of the Quran contains enough hints or you can simply look at whether the verse is encouraging a strange violent response when it does not encourage violence e.g. ''then beat them'' in relation to your wives.

When you call upon God swt for guidance, God swt doesn't restrict Himself to those who know Arabic or the experts and you have to then go through them to get it. Otherwise many people are doomed because they may simply not have access to such expertise. God swt emphasises equality and justice.

"The fact that Allah swt talks about signs in the world and universe - this is all too simple for atheists."

huh?

I was making a point in general that I thought of when I saw some of what mmkhan was saying. It seems you missed this.

I am disappointed by your position - supportpeacenotwar - you have chosen to side with ignorance rather than standing for truth and honesty.

I am not siding with anyone. I am trying to follow the Quran as I understand, as God guides me.

[huruf]

Peace huruf,

My point about Signs in the world around us/within ourselves (I should have included that bit as well, it was late, cut me some slack! ) is really about quoting the Quran without actually quoting it. My point was not to limit the Signs of Allah or say that it isn't deep. The point was directly in relation to the times I have seen many atheists mock the idea that things like the day or night, that stars set in motion, other natural phenomenon that are mentioned in the Quran such as the movement of clouds and so on, that this is all too simple to be a sign of God. That's the direct point I was addressing so it seemed most appropriate to put it like that. Especially since the Quran uses the type of terminology in translation - of Signs of Allah in the world and in themselves.

I agree with you that all of existence reflects God's existence because its made by Him. I made a similar point about God's Signs manifesting on every level in another thread. http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605300.msg326341#msg326341

Sorry, sister,

I did not mean to point out any lack in your post, I just saw the opportunity of pointing out what I did. I am sure you are aware and conscious of it. But, as I say, it seemed to me particularly to the point, because if we think tawheed means anything, then everything is coherent and harmony and sense will pervade everything that exists and speak to us if we listen.

You seem a very patient person. Best wishes.

Salaam

[The_Chimp]

Salam,

Interesting you pick up on this post of mine, but don't respond to the posts I made that directly addressed you earlier about hadith and everything.

I am busy and cannot reply to everything. However, if there is something pressing you wish me to answer, I am more than happy to oblige.

I'm only mentioning this because of the tone I'm getting from you.

And what tone is that?

because I believe one does not need much or any knowledge in Arabic in order to understand the central principles Quran. I agree that it is important to understand that translations are limited and that sometimes the Arabic is not translated well.

But this discussion isn't really about understanding the basics is it? No one is questioning that Arabic is not required to be a simple believer and practitioner of Islam.

However, I would have thought Prophethood is a basic and central point of Quran. Yet, it isn't being understood. But look at the basis of the challenge from Mr. Khan. He in proficient in Arabic, yet builds a whole narrative, clearly upon mistakes. Yet when these are pointed out, he spouts meaningless diatribe. And you chose to answer that. Why?

It is essential to know Arabic - if you are going to talk about Arabic and use it. Would you go to a doctor who lacked basic knowledge of medicine? No.

Also this about basic "truthfulness". Which I find to be lacking.

But for all the central and primary principles of Islam, I believe we have them already and the Quran is just a reinforcer and reminder

Please elaborate - what primary principles? I would have though Prophethood was basic.  Yet look at the way it is being challenged. Again we are not talking about being a simple believer. This person himself build quite an elaborate narrative on Arabic that was clearly wrong.

Yet, he knew that he did not know much Arabic. So why did he do that? And when his mistakes are pointed out. He is not able to defend them other than meaningless diatribe. What I mean is, he could not salvage his Arabic mistakes, which are mistakes and he knows it. Yet still tries to claim credence.

I find that amazing and lacking in honest and sheer stupidity.

Brother, my whole point is about relying on God. Knowledge of Arabic is nice and all but its not necessary. The central principles of faith are laid out in the Quran. Believe in The Deity, the last day, and do good. That is all about 'salvation' as some put it but I don't really use that term.

This is not about being a simple believer. But when you begin to advocate theology, knowing full well that your Arabic level is poor and likely to be wrong then sure that is deliberately misleading people. Then it does not matter how many irrelevant verses you throw out. Does it.

You have the audacity to say you know the Quran but then you use language and a demeanour like this. I see this is clearly what you learnt was acceptable from the Quran when you read it in Arabic? Calling people stupid, ignorant. My point was not about Mr Khan, I just thought of some points based on what he said.

I am sorry, but have you missed something? What demeanour?

And if their evasion is difficult for you, then if you are able to seek a tunnel into the earth or a stairway into the sky to bring them a sign, [then do so]. But if Allah had willed, He would have united them upon guidance. So never be of the ignorant.

Do you know how strongly the Quran deals with stupidity, ignorance and spreading falsehood? I don't think there is any point in quoting verses is there.

The rest of the Quran contains enough hints or you can simply look at whether the verse is encouraging a strange violent response when it does not encourage violence e.g. ''then beat them'' in relation to your wives.

I did not understand this. Or see how it is relevant.

When you call upon God swt for guidance, God swt doesn't restrict Himself to those who know Arabic or the experts and you have to then go through them to get it. Otherwise many people are doomed because they may simply not have access to such expertise. God swt emphasises equality and justice.

Once again - this is NOT about simple guidance. And it is about expertise. I doubt Allah guides those that lack basic sense of "truth". Do you? How is deliberately spreading falsehood even remotely guidance?

I was making a point in general that I thought of when I saw some of what mmkhan was saying. It seems you missed this.

No, I didn't. As the main thread of this was about basic honesty and truth, it seems you missed this completely.

I am not siding with anyone. I am trying to follow the Quran as I understand, as God guides me.

I am sorry to say, fine sentiment, but to my ears it rings very hollow. Shouldn't you be siding with "truth" - rather than whom you perceive to be you fellow? I believe you have the faculties to assess who is telling the truth, in this matter?

"Those who say you need expertise etc in Arabic in order to understand the Quran, appear to ignore the fact that the Quran is a reminder. "

This is taking sides! I don't think you can really deny that. It doesn't matter you did not mention me. The reference IS toward me. Actually, I find that somewhat lacking in courage.  And the logic of the line is faulty. Just because something is a "reminder" why would its basic language not matter?

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

I think ignorance and misleading ideas are spread everywhere, however, the intelligent can see through them. One cannot say that disinformation about God and His system is not spread within the Sunni sect because of blind reliance upon hadith and man-made conjecture.

I am not swallowing the ideas of mmnkhan and Bender, but yet here I am following this community as a friend. They are at least reminding us that Muhammad can mean something else other than a name which is true, just like Hassan and Hussein. In the context of these verses which mmkhan highlighted it is higher probability that they are names though or the phrases would sound a bit strange. Yet it is always good to watch everything one knows with a critical eye, even things which are dumbproof. I am not saying mmkhan is right though with his thesis, but I am at least treating him with respect.

On this forum, critical viewing of the Quranic passages has in many cases lead to a better understanding and some have solved inconsistency which was due to misinterpretation. People are not always right, but many times they are. If the idea is flawed it oftenly shows itself and the blessed and guided follower will see it.

And several of the members on this forum are quite skilled at Arabic and you can call them professionals. And uniting the thinking power across them is also boosting the outcome.

I would say that the Quran translations which are not tainted by traditional thinking are among the best ones around. Take a sectarian Quran translation and you will see many errors right away and thus is reflects the "professionalism" of these individuals.

I am not saying I am an expert in Arabic, I need lots of help interpreting the original language, but I do not rely on biased sources. I work together with English translations and the Arabic script simultaneously and occasionally seek enlightenment elsewhere. I trust God will lead me to the true interpretation as long as I am guided.

God bless you

[zone]

Peace.

I strongly believe that everyone here presented their understanding of a phenomenon from the knowledge that they discovered.

We believe that all phenomena are created in truth by Allah, the Creator. His creations are everywhere, around us and within us. We are descendants of scientists, who seek the truth on every existing phenomena created by Allah.

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." (2:31)

Knowledge is what we construct as meanings about an existing reality or a phenomenon.  Language is just a tool of communication to enable us to engage in symbolic interaction. What is important is to arrive at the truth, the exact meaning and understanding on that particular phenomenon. This thread is to discuss a phenomenon known as Muhammad.

I strongly believe that the Quran Arabic, in terms of its manifest symbols as Arabic words and the meanings to a particular phenomenon it represents, is the God?s language created in truth for those who seek His guidance.

Most of us are used to imagine Muhammad as a superhuman Arab man, lived 1400 years ago, who is a warrior, negotiator with God (to have five prayer times for his ummah), had many wives and able to predict the future (from hadith literature).

Brother MM Khan has presented what he believes to be the true meaning of the word that represents the phenomenon Muhammad. I respect his understanding and discovery. Some may find it hard to accept.

By the way Muhammad is still a messenger, that doesn?t change.

Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky? With it We then bring out produce of various colours. And in the mountains are tracts white and red, of various shades of colour, and black intense in hue. (35:27)

And among people and moving creatures and grazing livestock are various colors similarly. Those truly fear Allah, from among His servants, who have knowledge (l-ulama). Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Forgiving. (35:28). In this context, ulamas are those who study natural phenomena.

Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours: then it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then He makes it dry up and crumble away. Truly, in this, is a Message of remembrance to men of understanding. (39:21)

[The_Chimp]

Peace,

I think ignorance and misleading ideas are spread everywhere, however, the intelligent can see through them. One cannot say that disinformation about God and His system is not spread within the Sunni sect because of blind reliance upon hadith and man-made conjecture.

I am not swallowing the ideas of mmnkhan and Bender, but yet here I am following this community as a friend. They are at least reminding us that Muhammad can mean something else other than a name which is true, just like Hassan and Hussein. In the context of these verses which mmkhan highlighted it is higher probability that they are names though or the phrases would sound a bit strange. Yet it is always good to watch everything one knows with a critical eye, even things which are dumbproof. I am not saying mmkhan is right though with his thesis, but I am at least treating him with respect.

On this forum, critical viewing of the Quranic passages has in many cases lead to a better understanding and some have solved inconsistency which was due to misinterpretation. People are not always right, but many times they are. If the idea is flawed it oftenly shows itself and the blessed and guided follower will see it.

And several of the members on this forum are quite skilled at Arabic and you can call them professionals. And uniting the thinking power across them is also boosting the outcome.

I would say that the Quran translations which are not tainted by traditional thinking are among the best ones around. Take a sectarian Quran translation and you will see many errors right away and thus is reflects the "professionalism" of these individuals.

I am not saying I am an expert in Arabic, I need lots of help interpreting the original language, but I do not rely on biased sources. I work together with English translations and the Arabic script simultaneously and occasionally seek enlightenment elsewhere. I trust God will lead me to the true interpretation as long as I am guided.

God bless you

Salam,

I think ignorance and misleading ideas are spread everywhere, however, the intelligent can see through them. One cannot say that disinformation about God and His system is not spread within the Sunni sect because of blind reliance upon hadith and man-made conjecture.

Of course it is. However within Sunni Islam there is a system to challenge this and there is not the easy acceptance of "whatever goes". Also, and advantage, a clear advantage, Sunni Islam has is that it has some clear principles and methods, which Quran-only lack.

However, it is not Sunni Islam that is under-discussion. We can make it so. But, right and wrongs of Sunni Islam have no bearing on this.

I am not swallowing the ideas of mmnkhan and Bender, but yet here I am following this community as a friend. They are at least reminding us that Muhammad can mean something else other than a name which is true, just like Hassan and Hussein.

I am sorry, but when you deliberately set out to mislead with your two-penny's worth then that is severely problematic. Why would some pretend to have knowledge of something they clearly don't.

And the argument that the word "Muhammad" is not a name is build upon clear mistakes. And you cannot cover that up.

In the context of these verses which mmkhan highlighted it is higher probability that they are names though or the phrases would sound a bit strange. Yet it is always good to watch everything one knows with a critical eye, even things which are dumbproof. I am not saying mmkhan is right though with his thesis, but I am at least treating him with respect.

Respect? It is not a question of respect. It is question of right and wrong.

On this forum, critical viewing of the Quranic passages has in many cases lead to a better understanding and some have solved inconsistency which was due to misinterpretation. People are not always right, but many times they are. If the idea is flawed it oftenly shows itself and the blessed and guided follower will see it.

Care to highlight any? I have missed any so far. I have not been here long. I get the feeling, you tend to bury your head in the sand. 

And several of the members on this forum are quite skilled at Arabic and you can call them professionals. And uniting the thinking power across them is also boosting the outcome.

Sadly mmKhan isn't one of them.

I would say that the Quran translations which are not tainted by traditional thinking are among the best ones around. Take a sectarian Quran translation and you will see many errors right away and thus is reflects the "professionalism" of these individuals.

But this simply shows your prejudice. Upon which basis are you saying:

"I would say that the Quran translations which are not tainted by traditional thinking are among the best ones around."

As for:

"Take a sectarian Quran translation and you will see many errors right away and thus is reflects the "professionalism" of these individuals."

What are you talking about? Is there a quran-only translation? Where?

I am not saying I am an expert in Arabic, I need lots of help interpreting the original language, but I do not rely on biased sources.

So which sources do you rely on? If I can ask. What are biased/unbiased sources?

[The_Chimp]

Peace.

I strongly believe that everyone here presented their understanding of a phenomenon from the knowledge that they discovered.

We believe that all phenomena are created in truth by Allah, the Creator. His creations are everywhere, around us and within us. We are descendants of scientists, who seek the truth on every existing phenomena created by Allah.

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." (2:31)

Knowledge is what we construct as meanings about an existing reality or a phenomenon.  Language is just a tool of communication to enable us to engage in symbolic interaction. What is important is to arrive at the truth, the exact meaning and understanding on that particular phenomenon. This thread is to discuss a phenomenon known as Muhammad.

I strongly believe that the Quran Arabic, in terms of its manifest symbols as Arabic words and the meanings to a particular phenomenon it represents, is the God?s language created in truth for those who seek His guidance.

Most of us are used to imagine Muhammad as a superhuman Arab man, lived 1400 years ago, who is a warrior, negotiator with God (to have five prayer times for his ummah), had many wives and able to predict the future (from hadith literature).

Brother MM Khan has presented what he believes to be the true meaning of the word that represents the phenomenon Muhammad. I respect his understanding and discovery. Some may find it hard to accept.

By the way Muhammad is still a messenger, that doesn?t change.

Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky? With it We then bring out produce of various colours. And in the mountains are tracts white and red, of various shades of colour, and black intense in hue. (35:27)

And among people and moving creatures and grazing livestock are various colors similarly. Those truly fear Allah, from among His servants, who have knowledge (l-ulama). Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Forgiving. (35:28). In this context, ulamas are those who study natural phenomena.

Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours: then it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then He makes it dry up and crumble away. Truly, in this, is a Message of remembrance to men of understanding. (39:21)

Salam Zone,

I am sorry to say, this kind of meaningless spiel doesn't work. I can easily prove mmKhan is wrong and to an extend have done so.

When you say:

"Brother MM Khan has presented what he believes to be the true meaning of the word that represents the phenomenon Muhammad. I respect his understanding and discovery. Some may find it hard to accept."

No he hasn't. he clearly hasn't. Mr Khan has basic issues of truth and honesty. So what is this "discovery" that you respect? Please do share in your own words. A summary?



"By the way Muhammad is still a messenger, that doesn?t change. "

So if this doesn't change, what is the point, what is this new discovery?



"I strongly believe that the Quran Arabic, in terms of its manifest symbols as Arabic words and the meanings to a particular phenomenon it represents, is the God?s language created in truth for those who seek His guidance."

Statements like this are virtually meaningless. What do you mean?