Author Topic: Will of the god or will of the man?  (Read 3017 times)

muqeem

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Will of the god or will of the man?
« on: September 04, 2020, 08:02:11 PM »
Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2020, 08:53:08 PM »
Yes all path lead to God in the end.

Similitude is like hiking, all path lead to the top.
And there are many path (in this case maybe trillions or zillions in number) that eventually lead to the top.
There are path which seems like narrow path but actually it's the easiest and fastest path to the top.
There are path which seems like a wide path but actually it's one of the challenging path to the top and took longer time.
And anything in between.
The path that one choose will be the path that matches one's preference and liking.
But all in the end shall lead to the top.

Thus there is actually no 'good' or 'bad' path, as good and bad are different for everyone, all in accordance to one's taste and preference. A path that is considered good by some might be considered as bad by others and vice versa.

So actually God guides everyone, each to their own liking, taste and preference.



muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2020, 09:11:01 PM »
Yes all path lead to God in the end.

Similitude is like hiking, all path lead to the top.
And there are many path (in this case maybe trillions or zillions in number) that eventually lead to the top.
There are path which seems like narrow path but actually it's the easiest and fastest path to the top.
There are path which seems like a wide path but actually it's one of the challenging path to the top and took longer time.
And anything in between.
The path that one choose will be the path that matches one's preference and liking.
But all in the end shall lead to the top.

Thus there is actually no 'good' or 'bad' path, as good and bad are different for everyone, all in accordance to one's taste and preference. A path that is considered good by some might be considered as bad by others and vice versa.

So actually God guides everyone, each to their own liking, taste and preference.

hi, yes that makes sense to me

javed1

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2020, 02:41:35 AM »
Peace.
This question is for Jafar.
What about the one who says there is No God.
Regards

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2020, 08:27:25 AM »
Peace.
This question is for Jafar.
What about the one who says there is No God.
Regards

No exception, everyone (actually everything) is included.

Both who says there is God and there is no God will be amazed, by their own 'mistakes' (of perception).
As through mistakes they will learn.

One will realized the existence of the one infinite creator when they realized their own non-existence.
There is actually "No Thing" there is only "Everything".

“If you realize that all things change, there is nothing you will try to hold on to. If you are not afraid of dying, there is nothing you cannot achieve.”
-- Lao Tse

Nothing you will try to hold on to, not even to your own identity, ego or anything you're associating yourself with (your group, your religion, your holy books, your nationality, your home, your wealth, your favorite football club, your avatar in this forum etc..).

A longer story from Buddhist tradition..

"Once upon a time a Bodhisatva — an Enlightenment Being — was born into a high class family in northern India. When he grew up he gave up the ordinary desires of the everyday world and became a holy man. He went to the Himalayan Mountains where 500 other holy men became his followers.

He meditated throughout his long life. He gained supernatural powers — like flying through the air and understanding people's thoughts without their speaking. These special powers impressed his 500 followers greatly.
One rainy season, the chief follower took 250 of the holy men into the hill country villages to collect salt and other necessities. It just so happened that this was the time when the master was about to die. The 250 who were still by his side realized this. So they asked him, "Oh most holy one, in your long life practicing goodness and meditation, what was your greatest achievement?"

Having difficulty speaking as he was dying, the last words of the Enlightenment Being were, "No Thing."  "

tutti_frutti

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2020, 10:34:25 AM »
salam

we will all return to The God, no exception

those who followed the guidance sent by The God and submitted willingly are, with His permission and if He accepts, on the path that leads to His mercy and forgiveness

those who disobeyed and disbelieved are on the path to His wrath (very very very dangerous path)

there is just The God, and none else. my understanding from Quran He created us to worship Him.
life and death (this world) was created to test us
then i understand The God will reward the good doers of whom He wants and punish the evil doers.

how to obey Him? He detailed everything for us in the Quran.

i dont undertand why people make it complicated and keep dwelling in philosophical and “spiritual” matters

we are given guidance, hope, and warning by The God in the Quran.

we obey and follow His guidance...hope for His mercy if He wants to bestow it upon us ...

we disobey and follow satan ...big big big danger for us

peace

javed1

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2020, 12:02:51 PM »
Peace
Thank you very much Jafar for your reply.I really appreciate your explanation but I have a few more concerns/questions.Your  thought process will then do away from a from sin and punishment,from a moral law, in fact from any morality.What would be the compulsion to do good.Furthermore, an extension of this thought process leads to the invariable conclusion that everything is God.Then we are only a short step away from seeing God in everything and start worshipping anything we wish including stones and animals.I think theistic religions distinguish between "Everything is God" and  "Everything is God's." I can't quote from the quran because there is no divine book in your thought process .Please let me know your thoughts.
Regards
javed

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2020, 08:49:38 PM »
Peace
Thank you very much Jafar for your reply.I really appreciate your explanation but I have a few more concerns/questions.Your  thought process will then do away from a from sin and punishment,from a moral law,
Exactly.. it will do away from judging and start to move towards understanding.

Quote
What would be the compulsion to do good.
Try it, have you done anything good? how does that makes you?
Or try the reverse, makes all the things inside of you good and sweet, what kind of action that you would like to do.

Feel free to try the opposite as well, makes all the things inside of you vile and bitter. (fear, anger, sadness, envy, hate) what kind of action that you would like to do.

Quote
Furthermore, an extension of this thought process leads to the invariable conclusion that everything is God.Then we are only a short step away from seeing God in everything and start worshipping anything we wish including stones and animals.

Exactly.. that's the reason WHY there is only one God in the first place.
There is no my God, his/her God, their God, our God, your God there is only God.

And can you define 'worshiping'? What is it?

Quote
I think theistic religions distinguish between "Everything is God" and  "Everything is God's." I can't quote from the quran because there is no divine book in your thought process .

Exactly..

Religion thought process is the thought process of SEPARATION.
The opposite of SEPARATION is UNITY.

The only reason why 'religion' came up with the dogma there is a 'divine' things (books ,people, statue, places whatever) is to make a DISTINCTION. A 'divine' book is created in order to levitate it's status above other books. This book is 'divine' other books are 'non-divine', usually they use the label 'man made'.

That's why usually religion enforce a belief that there is only ONE of those things.
This is the ONLY divine book the other books are not divine.
It was provided to give a sense of SPECIALTY or SUPERIORITY.
We are different than them. We are DISTINCT from them. because we have divine books, people, statue, places whatever and they do not.

That's why also religion is always go against the thought process in everything is divine or everything is in unity.
And also oddly against the thought process that everything is created by God in the first place, as that also goes against the objective of making a distinction.
With such thought process no distinction is possible, no differentiation between us and them is possible.

In reality you are 'more divine' relatively compared to merely books.
Books doesn't have any awareness and you do.
But don't believe me on this, seek it out yourselves, you (and so does everything else) have direct connection to the one infinite creator, just ask and it shall be answered.

Like mentioned before, we learned through mistakes, the more mistakes within ourselves we're able to recognize the faster our process of learning will be.
But that requires something within us.
That requires us to shed our pride as PRIDE REQUIRES A DISTINCTION in order to exist.
With pride there is no way that I can make a mistake, mistakes is the domain of others but not me, because I'm special not like others, because I'm distinct from others.

Until you realize that the thing that you call "I" actually do not exist...





good logic

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2020, 02:00:03 AM »
Peace.
Careful study about religion has concluded for me other religions that are hidden like:
Higher consciousness.
Higher consciousness is the consciousness of a god or "the part of the human mind that is capable of transcending animal instincts". While the concept has ancient roots, dating back to the Bhagavad Gita and Indian Vedas, it was significantly developed in German idealism, and is a central notion in contemporary popular spirituality, including the New Age movement.

Christ consciousness:
The basic premise of mysticism is that man can, within himself, transcend physical existence and experience his own goodness as being “one” with the universe, being a god, or existing on whatever higher plane he chooses to believe in. The name of Jesus is merely used as a prop in this latest version of the same idea.
Everyone is god.
We may also come to see that all reality is really one consciousness, i.e. God, and that we are that one consciousness. This is the truth behind the position called Idealism which stands in opposition to the idea of Materialism, and its ultimate proof derives from the direct experience of being God.

...etc.
All these are just men s interpretations of what they think they understand  ".who god is".
GOD however ,knowing all these religions will spring up  keeps renewing His message. Only GOD knows  who and what He is. Only His words explain it the best.
GOD s simple message is:
Do not follow others ,ponder His message and ask His explanation. Deal directly through GOD s words and message.

Criminality and wickedness of man requires the justice of GOD Alone. Man s justice is imperfect and mostly bias. Accountability to GOD is the only just and fair judgement. Man s religions(some) do away with responsibility and accountability.

GOD bless.
Peace.
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Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2020, 02:48:56 AM »
It's wiser not to be 'entrapped' in label or merely believing something just because somebody or some book said so.
The same things happened within an umbrella called / labelled "Religion" not all Religion actually a religion.
Which then beg the fundamental question what is religion?

Seek it yourselves, know the essence / characteristics of things and then you will know and not merely believe.

Because this universe seems to be based on contrast.
On everything there's an opposite contrast.
And it's created as such for a purpose.

Separation <-> Unity
Pride <-> Humility
Fear <-> Courage
Hate <-> Love
Rage <-> Calmness
Harming <-> Healing
Dominating <-> Accommodating
Gaining <-> Sharing
Egocentric <-> Empathy
Judging <-> Understanding
Bigotry <-> Tolerance
etc..

Some might be resonated more towards Separation, Pride, Domination, Judging and Bigotry and some might resonated towards the opposite. But that's just the way it is. And everything exist only because the one infinite creator created as such.
In the end all paths will lead to the top, to the one infinite creator.

That's why; seek out your own path, nobody shared the exact same path.
When you're realized that the path that you walked through now is not comfortable for you, then find another path.
Make sure the path that you walked is the path that you're truly resonating with.
At the very least be authentic with yourselves.

Remember that everyone actually have direct connection to the one infinite creator, just ask and you shall receive.
Don't let fear be in the way for you to realize and make use of such privileges.
Whatever path that you walked on, the one infinite creator is always there to guide you all the way.

"The enemy is fear, we think it's hate, but it's fear"
-- Gandhi

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but yourselves can free your own minds, have no fear for atomic energy, cause none of them can stopped the time".
-- Bob Marley: Redemption Song

javed1

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 03:57:09 AM »
Peace Jafar
I agree with you about changing myself,removing the ego and choosing the all the 'right' opposites from the list you have compiled.Remove the 'I'.Remove the ego.All this is fine.Yet the moment you say everything is 'One',by definition,God too has to dissolve into that 'oneness',because God cannot even have a "Will",since that would make him "distinct'.So essentially it is not 'Oneness'but 'Nothingness'.Listen to Deepak Chopra and Sadhguru.Essentially if we dissect through their extremely intelligent conversation and word play,they are saying there is no God.They call it by some vague notions like "Energy" and 'Universal Consciousness".
There is No 'One eternal God' left,for that would A dichotomy.
Thanks Jafar,Good Logic and Truity Fruity.Jafar your views are intellectually stimulating always.
Javed

tutti_frutti

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2020, 04:38:13 AM »
salam javed1

my understanding:

for me there is no such thing as a “universal consciousness”

there cannot be an energy that has no will. who then created that energy? why would that “universal consciousness” exist?? the will always comes before “matter”

there is only The God and existence is what He wills it to be

existence is a product of His will

it is like when one says “this is my car” or “this is my house” etc well existence is The God’s. “to be” is His. everything that is and is not is His, and only what He wants can happen.

The God is the only Truth, He IS the Truth

for those you quoted like sandhguru, they say things about death and about existence etc my question to them is ... how do they know? did they receive some divine revelation? a scripture? when they talk about what comes after death... did they die and come back? or about the human having 5 or 7 bodies/souls? what authority do they have to ascertain all this

we have the Quran that is sent to us by The God that is logical and divine

peace :)

Cerberus

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2020, 05:49:24 AM »
It's wiser not to be 'entrapped' in label or merely believing something just because somebody or some book said so.
The same things happened within an umbrella called / labelled "Religion" not all Religion actually a religion.
Which then beg the fundamental question what is religion?

Seek it yourselves, know the essence / characteristics of things and then you will know and not merely believe.

Because this universe seems to be based on contrast.
On everything there's an opposite contrast.
And it's created as such for a purpose.

Separation <-> Unity
Pride <-> Humility
Fear <-> Courage
Hate <-> Love
Rage <-> Calmness
Harming <-> Healing
Dominating <-> Accommodating
Gaining <-> Sharing
Egocentric <-> Empathy
Judging <-> Understanding
Bigotry <-> Tolerance
etc..

Some might be resonated more towards Separation, Pride, Domination, Judging and Bigotry and some might resonated towards the opposite. But that's just the way it is. And everything exist only because the one infinite creator created as such.
In the end all paths will lead to the top, to the one infinite creator.

That's why; seek out your own path, nobody shared the exact same path.
When you're realized that the path that you walked through now is not comfortable for you, then find another path.
Make sure the path that you walked is the path that you're truly resonating with.
At the very least be authentic with yourselves.

Remember that everyone actually have direct connection to the one infinite creator, just ask and you shall receive.
Don't let fear be in the way for you to realize and make use of such privileges.
Whatever path that you walked on, the one infinite creator is always there to guide you all the way.

"The enemy is fear, we think it's hate, but it's fear"
-- Gandhi

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but yourselves can free your own minds, have no fear for atomic energy, cause none of them can stopped the time".
-- Bob Marley: Redemption Song

I question the validity of all of this. It seems more of a wishful appealing thinking rather than logical and critical thinking. This is also typical to liberal religions such as the Unitarian Universalism church.

Why do all path lead to the top ? And why should they ?
And if so, does it include the path of X religion aswell ? then why complain about X religion ? why criticize at all, since all paths will eventually lead to the top ?

Why do you put "Judgement <> Understanding" as opposite to one another ? Did you know that as a result of understanding one discriminates and judges between what is right and what is wrong ? The question is actually whether that judgement is correct or not, it may very well be based on some kind of understanding. Reason above all allows to discriminate between what is rational and not rational...but in general, an individual uses their judgement to carve their own path. But remember you said all path lead to the top ?

What kind of advice is "seek your own path" ? Would it be wrong if someone, by following your advice, ends up in a path of hate, fear and pride, the things you don't speak so highly of ?

Why do you say and I paraphrase, " if a path is not comfortable for you, then find another path." Is comfort a critical index to the validity of a path ? The devil is in the details.

But in general, liberal beliefs are all about "comfort" and coziness, "nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't hurt anyone", because the purpose is "happiness" and attainment of pleasure, hence why acceptance and "tolerance", and considering judgement as bad as it discriminates. There is no right or wrong (because they refuse to think critically about the matter, and risk finding themselves in discomfort) but instead, what is right is simply what "feels right", like love, tolerance, acceptance and all that cute stuff. and what is wrong is what brings discomfort, pain, etc. i.e what feels wrong. This is simply limited to the realm of feelings and wishful thinking.
Once you step into the realm of honest critical thinking then you risk putting yourself in discomfort, something you and the religion you criticize hate to do.

good logic

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2020, 11:48:24 AM »
Peace  javed1
Let us tackle the issue of GOD from the "justice " angle.
In this case I can only conclude that GOD must be an independent entity . A separate being from all His creation, Why?

For example where do  people who do not believe in GOD and who say crime,wickedness,injustice and racism or homophobia is objectively wrong turn for both guidance and a moral standard? Their own opinions? Human systems/justice ?Maybe evolutionary theory?...

Moral values and duties/responsibilities arise from laws which imply a law giver. Put another way, since people agree that objective moral values and duties exist,  an authority exist  that ensures perfect justice.
The world shows again and again that justice in this life doesn’t always occur
So there must be a  final judgment by the original authority/GOD. Moreover, that judgment must be perfect with no possibility of any resulting injustice. 

Also, to have a perfect judgment, you must have a judge that has all knowledge and knows all the facts of each case. And that judge must be righteous because while a judge can possess all the facts of a case, they could be corrupt. 
   
 The judge must have the ultimate power to implement and enforce justice, with nothing being able to oppose him or loyalties/interference from others .

 To have meaningful ethics and true justice,  there must be life after death where an omnipotent, omniscient, righteous, and holy judge awaits who will bring about final justice for everyone and everything.
Hence GOD must be one and independent from all His creation.
GOD bless you.
Peace
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Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2020, 02:16:20 PM »
Why do all path lead to the top ? And why should they ?
And if so, does it include the path of X religion aswell ? then why complain about X religion ? why criticize at all, since all paths will eventually lead to the top ?

Because the infinite creator is all that actually exist..

Yes it include the path of X religion as well..
Or more exactly the path of X individual.
Religion cannot do anything, it's the people who can do things..

Quote
Why do you put "Judgement <> Understanding" as opposite to one another ? Did you know that as a result of understanding one discriminates and judges between what is right and what is wrong ? The question is actually whether that judgement is correct or not, it may very well be based on some kind of understanding. Reason above all allows to discriminate between what is rational and not rational...

This is a limitation in english language, or maybe I choose the wrong word.
It should be Judging vs Understanding.

And right and wrong or good and bad depends on many subjective circumstances and context.
Even 1+1 equal 2 might be wrong if the context base of number is binary, if it's binary 1 + 1 = 10

Quote
What kind of advice is "seek your own path" ? Would it be wrong if someone, by following your advice, ends up in a path of hate, fear and pride, the things you don't speak so highly of ?

I never 'not speak highly' or 'lowerly' of such path.
Path of hate, fear and pride might be correct for someone.

But yes you're correct by saying that the path of hate fear and pride it's not comfortable for me.
I don't enjoy it, it felt not natural for me.
But perhaps it is natural for others..

From my perspective the path of fear can be seen as catalyst, a catalyst to find or seek the opposite.
There are limit of how one can sustain walking the path of fear, until at one time it just snap! grew sick and tired of it and starting to seek for the opposite. The same thing goes with hate, pride, domination, lies etc..

That's why in the end it will end up at the same 'destination'..
The differences will be how long for one to arrived at the destination, depending on the actual path taken for the journey.

Quote
Why do you say and I paraphrase, " if a path is not comfortable for you, then find another path." Is comfort a critical index to the validity of a path ? The devil is in the details.

Again limitation of language or I choose the wrong word.
By 'comfort' here it means 'natural' to the feeling inside of you.

If feel not natural don't be afraid to seek a new path, I have explained the details above..

Quote
But in general, liberal beliefs are all about "comfort" and coziness, "nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't hurt anyone", because the purpose is "happiness" and attainment of pleasure, hence why acceptance and "tolerance", and considering judgement as bad as it discriminates.

I don't know who do you mean by 'liberal' here, and for the sake of discussion it's better not to label anything as label actually do not mean a thing and can be misleading. The same thing goes for 'stereotyping'.

I've explained what it meant by 'comfort' above, it does not necessarily mean coziness.

Some people feel 'comfort' / 'natural' when they're bullying other people, I however do not.
But actually bullies never find any 'coziness' by bullying if you asked them.

Again judging good and bad is subjective.

Quote
There is no right or wrong (because they refuse to think critically about the matter, and risk finding themselves in discomfort) but instead, what is right is simply what "feels right", like love, tolerance, acceptance and all that cute stuff. and what is wrong is what brings discomfort, pain, etc. i.e what feels wrong. This is simply limited to the realm of feelings and wishful thinking.

I think you're mixing up the judging (good vs bad which is subjective) and the contrast of every concept.
To some all the "cute stuff" is indeed discomfort and to some other all the "cute stuff" is comfort.

But your last sentence is correct, 'feelings' or should I say 'emotion' does matter. If not it's actually what matter.
Machines or AI are able to 'think critically' (a.k.a deductive reasoning), million times better than any human.
But they cannot have "Feelings" and "Emotion", only 'living being' does..

Quote
Once you step into the realm of honest critical thinking then you risk putting yourself in discomfort, something you and the religion you criticize hate to do.

Oh yes I totally understand what you mean, because I've been through that too and definitely I will still experiencing many discomfort in the future. I see that as a compass for my journey.

It's a discomfort to find mistakes within ourselves, once we apply total honesty to our own self.
It's a discomfort to switch orientation or thought processes.
But the triggering of such actions were also caused by discomfort.

It's a discomfort to be in a middle of a crowd who chanted "Dead to the X ethnicity".
It's a discomfort to hear how we have so many enemies that threatening us with destruction and torture, jews, the west, america, the devil and even the God himself.
It's a discomfort to find cursing within a book which I consider to be flawless and holy.
It's a discomfort to hear my honored teacher boasted about how our group status is much higher than others.
It's a discomfort to hear my honored teacher teaches about how the other group will be eternally tortured, just because they're not within our group.
It's a discomfort to see how my own grandma really wanted to kiss a black stone and I helped her with that.
It's a discomfort to hear how explanation from people outside of my group makes more sense to me.
It's a discomfort to remember what I have thought and believed in the past.
And thousands if not millions of other discomforts,
But all of those discomforts need to happened, I see all of those discomforts as my catalyst for change...

But changes can only happened once we found courage to 'fight' away our own fear.

While "religion" is merely a concept, it cannot do any thinking,
Only the people who associate themselves with a religion are capable of such thing.
That's why 'a religion' is dynamic in nature, it depends on the people who are associating themselves with a religion.


Cerberus

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2020, 07:13:22 AM »
Ok let me try to simplify all that you're saying, because you're saying a lot and in doing that you're obfuscating your point.

You're making a moral relativist argument, that because there is no universal way of looking at things, therefore the more appropriate attitude is to be accepting and tolerant etc...It comes convenient with your idea that feelings is what matters. Everyone feels different, and everything is ok, and the cherry on top is that "all paths lead to the top" because of the infinite creator.

All of this aside, quickly look outside and watch people complaining about the lockdowns or even the mask-wearing, those people are all about their feelings, and your moral relativist argument doesn't help either. Feelings are selfish by nature and compulsive. Selfless acts are done thoughtuflly with understanding and intent (it could come with pain and discomfort, but it doesnt matter because feelings are blind and shouldnt dictate anything).

reel

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2020, 09:39:06 AM »
Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace

You can run a test and see this at work. Ask a question to your subconcious mind and say that you want the answer within 24 hours.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2020, 01:42:03 AM »
Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace
Salam!
Your answer is in 76:30.
Peace!

muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2020, 01:28:59 AM »
Salam!
Your answer is in 76:30.
Peace!

Thanks, "But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom."

does it mean God only is, seperation of self is an illusion?

muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2020, 01:31:18 AM »
It's wiser not to be 'entrapped' in label or merely believing something just because somebody or some book said so.
The same things happened within an umbrella called / labelled "Religion" not all Religion actually a religion.
Which then beg the fundamental question what is religion?

Seek it yourselves, know the essence / characteristics of things and then you will know and not merely believe.

Because this universe seems to be based on contrast.
On everything there's an opposite contrast.
And it's created as such for a purpose.

Separation <-> Unity
Pride <-> Humility
Fear <-> Courage
Hate <-> Love
Rage <-> Calmness
Harming <-> Healing
Dominating <-> Accommodating
Gaining <-> Sharing
Egocentric <-> Empathy
Judging <-> Understanding
Bigotry <-> Tolerance
etc..

Some might be resonated more towards Separation, Pride, Domination, Judging and Bigotry and some might resonated towards the opposite. But that's just the way it is. And everything exist only because the one infinite creator created as such.
In the end all paths will lead to the top, to the one infinite creator.

That's why; seek out your own path, nobody shared the exact same path.
When you're realized that the path that you walked through now is not comfortable for you, then find another path.
Make sure the path that you walked is the path that you're truly resonating with.
At the very least be authentic with yourselves.

Remember that everyone actually have direct connection to the one infinite creator, just ask and you shall receive.
Don't let fear be in the way for you to realize and make use of such privileges.
Whatever path that you walked on, the one infinite creator is always there to guide you all the way.

"The enemy is fear, we think it's hate, but it's fear"
-- Gandhi

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but yourselves can free your own minds, have no fear for atomic energy, cause none of them can stopped the time".
-- Bob Marley: Redemption Song

Thank you Jafar, your views speak to me. Did you ever have the experience of oneness? The way you express your views it seems that it is coming from a personal experience  :hail

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2020, 05:35:55 AM »
Thank you Jafar, your views speak to me. Did you ever have the experience of oneness? The way you express your views it seems that it is coming from a personal experience  :hail

Peace Muqeem

That's a very good question.

Have I ever have experienced oneness.

Apparently both the question and the answer is not as simple as I or should I say we initially thought.

Based on my current understanding, if Jafar has experienced truly oneness then Jafar will not be here. The reason why Jafar is here is because he's still on his way towards oneness.
So the question is similar to kindergarten kid asking his class mate have you obtained your PhD degree?
No insult to the question, because the question is a very good question.

But oneness or unification on much smaller scale might have been experienced by Jafar.
The example of such is this:
Jafar is merely an avatar on this forum, there's another persona behind Jafar who are 'living' on different 'realm'.  But somehow Jafar and this persona think that they're both one, the persona is associating him (or her) self as Jafar as his (or her) manifestation inside the realm of this web forum.

This is not a static definition it could also be possible that Jafar is also associating himself with another different persona. As such now Jafar is a manifestation of two different persona behind him. Jafar and the two persona think that they're one. The two personas have common manifestation on the realm of this webforum as Jafar.

The opposite is also possible, the persona have multiple avatars... besides Jafar ithe persona is also manifesting him or herself as Jerome (for example) and they think that they're one.

Thus this is a matter of "scoping of perspective" about the definition of "I" and "Me" and also "We" and "Us".

Based on my current understanding, true unification or true oneness is a unification with everything a unification with an infinity. Infinity is a very large number isn't it?

How to achieve that?

There are two ways,

A. is to continuously enlarge the definition of "I" to also include other "I" (the you, he, she, it, them), in human language there are other word to describe the collection of "I" it's called "Us" or "We". Continuously enlarging "Us" to also include other "I" until there are no more "I" among the collection of "Them" are left.
The question will be how long will it takes?
It depends on the number of "I" who are among "Them"... the problem here is that the total number of "I" is actually infinite. Thus it will took an infinity to include the infinite number of "I".

The other option is:
B. to instantly just remove the boundary or border that define the "I". The border that differentiate between the "I" and the "Non I" (he, she, it, you, them). Instantly everything is included... but it will also resulted in the total abolishment of the "I" and also the "Non I", he , she, it, you, them. As "I" exist only because the "Non I" exist.

This is perhaps what ancient sages mean when they say: "By becoming nothing you will become everything".
By destroying our own ego we will achieve unification a.k.a oneness with everything.

That is my current understanding, but who knows along the way towards unification I will learn something new and the above understanding will changed or should I say be 'enriched'.



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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2020, 12:20:59 PM »
Salam muqeem,

I haven't read the responses yet but wanted to add a comment to what you said.  Yes I am in agreement that all paths lead to Allah in the literal sense that after death we return to our Lord. However my humble opinion is that this does not mean that each path is of equal value or recommended. It's clear to me that the Quran advises us to follow a specific set of paths and to avoid other sets of paths. This is directly linked to the amount of spiritual growth each path can afford. The goal for us is not only to return to Allah but to also return with an acceptable amount of growth to the nafs that we were entrusted with. There's a literary metaphor used in the Quran where Allah describes the resurrection as people swarming as butterflies or returning as a locust. To me this speaks to people taking the advise of God and transforming themselves as the butterfly does and returning as the prodigal son or people taking the path of greed, earthly desires, carefreeness and devouring the world as a locust only to return to God no more as a locust. Unlike the butterfly, the locust goes thru no metamorphosis in it's lifecycle. So we return to Allah better or we return to Allah stale. Just my thoughts. Thanks!

Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2020, 07:09:43 AM »
Thanks, "But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom."

does it mean God only is, seperation of self is an illusion?
Salam, dear brother!
This simply means that Allah's will is ever stronger/overwhelming. See 8:30 also for better understanding.
Peace!

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2020, 11:22:56 PM »
Quote
does it mean God only is,
seperation of self is an illusion?

Actually yes..   God IS

Separation is merely a temporary illusion.
This entire universe is an illusion.

Just like the universe of this webforum is an illusion.
The separation of "muqeem" an avatar on this forum and the persona who created "muqeem" is an illusion, muqeem the avatar and the persona is always in unity.

Another metaphor for this, is let's take a novel,
The "Lord Of The Rings" by Tolkien

There's the hobbits: Bilbo Baggins, Frodo Baggins, Sam Baggins
The human: Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn,
The elves: Legolas,
The Dark Forces: Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul

There's conflict, war, somebody murdered somebody etc.. within the novel.

But when asked :
1. Where is Tolkien in the Lord Of The Rings?
Well we can say that 'his manifestation' is on all things within the Lord Of The Rings universe, all hobbits, all elves, all human, all dark forces, all the forest, all the caverns, jungle everything. As all things within the Lord Of The Rings was created from Tolkien's thought.
2. Does Tolkien's created The Dark Forces in Lord of the Rings?
Answer is yes, Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul, Saruman who transformed from white to black are all the product of his thought. So there is no such thing as conflict between Tolkien vs The Dark Forces. If Tolkien's so will, the dark forces can easily be deleted instantly.
3. Why then not Tolkien just removed the Dark Forces?
Answer is how do you find the story of a bunch of hobbits living peacefully within the Shire? No conflicts, no challenges. "Once upon a time there were Hobbits living peacefully in the Shire. The End". Will you be interested to even read the book?
4. In the Lord Of The Rings it's told that Bilbo Baggins authored a book titled "Hobbits" and so does Sauron who authored "Book of Dark Magic", does that mean that those books were actually authored by Tolkien?
Answer is yes since everything within Lord Of The Rings were product of Tolkien's imagination. Thus there is no such thing as a 'conflict' between Tolkien books vs Sauron books.
5. From Tolkien's perspective how does the event within Lord Of The Rings took place?
All the events took place at the same time, Tolkien (or LOTR book reader) can easily turn the pages to focus on certain timeline and jump around the timeline if he / she wishes to.

muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2020, 03:29:54 PM »
Actually yes..   God IS

Separation is merely a temporary illusion.
This entire universe is an illusion.

Just like the universe of this webforum is an illusion.
The separation of "muqeem" an avatar on this forum and the persona who created "muqeem" is an illusion, muqeem the avatar and the persona is always in unity.

Another metaphor for this, is let's take a novel,
The "Lord Of The Rings" by Tolkien

There's the hobbits: Bilbo Baggins, Frodo Baggins, Sam Baggins
The human: Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn,
The elves: Legolas,
The Dark Forces: Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul

There's conflict, war, somebody murdered somebody etc.. within the novel.

But when asked :
1. Where is Tolkien in the Lord Of The Rings?
Well we can say that 'his manifestation' is on all things within the Lord Of The Rings universe, all hobbits, all elves, all human, all dark forces, all the forest, all the caverns, jungle everything. As all things within the Lord Of The Rings was created from Tolkien's thought.
2. Does Tolkien's created The Dark Forces in Lord of the Rings?
Answer is yes, Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul, Saruman who transformed from white to black are all the product of his thought. So there is no such thing as conflict between Tolkien vs The Dark Forces. If Tolkien's so will, the dark forces can easily be deleted instantly.
3. Why then not Tolkien just removed the Dark Forces?
Answer is how do you find the story of a bunch of hobbits living peacefully within the Shire? No conflicts, no challenges. "Once upon a time there were Hobbits living peacefully in the Shire. The End". Will you be interested to even read the book?
4. In the Lord Of The Rings it's told that Bilbo Baggins authored a book titled "Hobbits" and so does Sauron who authored "Book of Dark Magic", does that mean that those books were actually authored by Tolkien?
Answer is yes since everything within Lord Of The Rings were product of Tolkien's imagination. Thus there is no such thing as a 'conflict' between Tolkien books vs Sauron books.
5. From Tolkien's perspective how does the event within Lord Of The Rings took place?
All the events took place at the same time, Tolkien (or LOTR book reader) can easily turn the pages to focus on certain timeline and jump around the timeline if he / she wishes to.

This is it!  :handshake:  :hail