Quran 9:36-37

[Wakas]

You can see this recent relevant thread:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

[Mazhar]

Why does verse 9:36 say there must be 12 months only? We know that in reality a year is more than 12 months.

A year is always of 12 months. It is not speaking of the days of a year. Lunar month can be of 29 or 30 days. Solar calendar is also of 12 months.

[brook]

What is "النسيء"? I don't follow hadith anymore, but the only answer I could find was in the hadith though I'm not convinced. Apparently pagan Arabs used to add a month called "النسيء" but then they stopped when they converted to Islam.

According to 9:37, النسيء was the adjustment which the polytheists made in number - عِدَّةَ
although GOD decided it on the day He had created the heavens and the earth (9:36).

They claimed that their intention was adjustment; that is, CHANGE for the better
but it was only THEIR whimsical claim and it certainly was against God's decision,
so it increased their disbelief.

Take the number of the full moons
from the summer soltice of year 630 to the summer soltice of 631
(http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html):

01: Jun 30, 630
02: July 29, 630
03: Aug 28, 630
04: Sep 27, 630
05: Oct 27, 630
06: Nov 25, 630,
07: Dec 25, 630
08: Jan 23, 631
09: Feb 22, 630
10: Mar 23, 630
11: Apr 21, 631
12: May 21, 631
13: Jun 19, 631

01: July 19, 631
02: Aug 17, 631
...

The number of the full moons was 13
but the polytheists changed* it to 12
by postponing ON PAPER the 13th full moon.

This caused the following full moons to come 11 days earlier,
thus made the moons ON PAPER drift from season to season without a sense of time
although God had decided them to come 19 days later, then 11 days earlier, then...
and thus  they would each appear in only 1 (one) season and have a sense of time.

As a result the 12-moon lunar year has no sense of time;
it can not answer questions ABOUT TIME as follows:

In which season of the lunar year was Prophet Muhammad born?
In which season is hunting game forbidden mentioned in 5:94-95?

___________________________________

*Polytheists' adjustment:

01: Jun 30, 630
02: July 29, 630
03: Aug 28, 630
04: Sep 27, 630
05: Oct 27, 630
06: Nov 25, 630,
07: Dec 25, 630
08: Jan 23, 631
09: Feb 22, 630
10: Mar 23, 630
11: Apr 21, 631
12: May 21, 631

01: Jun 19, 631
02: July 19, 631
03: Aug 17, 631
...

[Murad]

Hello Murad. Let me try to explain what I think.

Verse 9:36 does not say that there MUST be 12 months,
it says that number of the full moons is 12 - عِدَّةَ ال شُّهُورِ ... اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا
and it is all up to us to find out whether THAT number may be different sometimes.

All we need to do is to count the full moons.

In order to do that we need a definite time period with a beginning  and an end,
which can be the time from the appearance of the brightest full moon to its next appearance.

The brightest full moon appeared after the summer solstice on June 28, 2018
and it will appear again after the summer solstice on July 17, 2019
(https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2018&country=74).

Now
let's see number of the full moons;
that is, عِدَّةَ ال شُّهُورِ:

01: Jun 28, 2018
02: July 27, 2018
03: Aug 26, 2018
04: Sep 25, 2018
05: Oct. 24, 2018
06: Nov 23, 2018
07: Dec 22, 2018
08: Jan 21, 2019
09: Feb 19, 2019
10: Mar 21, 2019
11: Apr 19, 2019
12: May 19, 2019
13: Jun 17, 2019


01: July 17, 2019
02: Aug 15, 2019
...

So the number of the full moons is sometimes 13, which is God's truth
just like the truth that God's messenger Abraham expressed
when he said "Allah does indeed bring the Sun from the East." (2:258)

By saying that,
Abraham did not make the false claim that it is only the Sun which comes from the east;
he did not leave out the truth that the Moon too comes from the east.

And by saying that the number of the full moons is 12,
9:36 does not make the false claim the number must always be 12.
it does not leave out the truth that the number is sometimes 13.

To sum it up,
9:36 does not speak about the months of any year system ON PAPER called calendar by man...
but it speaks about the full moons IN THE SKY created by God.

*

During the period of time from one summer solstice to the next
planet Earth makes 1 (one) revolution around the Sun, which takes 365 days;

During the same time
satellite Moon (tied to planet Earth) may make 13 revolutions around the Sun, which takes 384 days.

And this, by itself, is proof enough that shahr-شهر in 9:36 is full moon
as the solar year does not have room for the 384 days the 13 lunar months make... but it does have room for the 13 one-day full moons.
The remainin 19 days (384 minus 365) take place in the previous and the following "عِدَّةَ ال شُّهُورِ"s.

Sorry, the following has been a repetition by mistake.

But I would like to use this as a chance
and correct a mistake I made here:

During the same time
satellite Moon (tied to planet Earth) may make 13 revolutions around the Sun, which takes 384 days.

Correction:

During the same time satellite Moon too (tied to planet Earth)
turns around the Sun and makes 13 revolutions around the Earth,
which takes 384 days.

Thank you brook for taking the time to write this detailed response. Your explanation is spot on and it helped me understand the meaning of verse 9:36 better. May God bless you.

[Murad]

You can see this recent relevant thread:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

Agreed. The argument you've presented (based on the beginning of chapter 9) makes a lot of sense. So which do you believe are the 4 sacred months?

[Murad]

According to 9:37, النسيء was the adjustment which the polytheists made in number - عِدَّةَ
although GOD decided it on the day He had created the heavens and the earth (9:36).

They claimed that their intention was adjustment; that is, CHANGE for the better
but it was only THEIR whimsical claim and it certainly was against God's decision,
so it increased their disbelief.

Take the number of the full moons
from the summer soltice of year 630 to the summer soltice of 631
(http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html):

01: Jun 30, 630
02: July 29, 630
03: Aug 28, 630
04: Sep 27, 630
05: Oct 27, 630
06: Nov 25, 630,
07: Dec 25, 630
08: Jan 23, 631
09: Feb 22, 630
10: Mar 23, 630
11: Apr 21, 631
12: May 21, 631
13: Jun 19, 631

01: July 19, 631
02: Aug 17, 631
...

The number of the full moons was 13
but the polytheists changed* it to 12
by postponing ON PAPER the 13th full moon.

This caused the following full moons to come 11 days earlier,
thus made the moons ON PAPER drift from season to season without a sense of time
although God had decided them to come 19 days later, then 11 days earlier, then...
and thus  they would each appear in only 1 (one) season and have a sense of time.

As a result the 12-moon lunar year has no sense of time;
it can not answer questions ABOUT TIME as follows:

In which season of the lunar year was Prophet Muhammad born?
In which season is hunting game forbidden mentioned in 5:94-95?

___________________________________

*Polytheists' adjustment:

01: Jun 30, 630
02: July 29, 630
03: Aug 28, 630
04: Sep 27, 630
05: Oct 27, 630
06: Nov 25, 630,
07: Dec 25, 630
08: Jan 23, 631
09: Feb 22, 630
10: Mar 23, 630
11: Apr 21, 631
12: May 21, 631

01: Jun 19, 631
02: July 19, 631
03: Aug 17, 631
...

Once again, this is the answer I've been looking for. Your interpretation of verse 9:37 is very logical. Thank you!
After doing some online surfing, I had come across a video that gives the etymology of النسيء and another interpretation for 9:37 which I also find interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPjv5w4eVBg

[brook]

Salam,
Ayat 10:5 makes it clear that the calendar (year) should be Lunar.

Let?s try to find out whether 10:5 really shows that the year should be Lunar
by supposing that a camel herder started to live in the desert long ago 
and now would like to know the number of the years -عدد السنين- he lived in there. 

One thing he is sure about is this:

One of the full moons,
which appears right after the longest day-time of the year,
looks bigger and brighter than the others.

He calls it the scorching full moon
because it gives the news
that scorching days of summer are coming.

Each time he saw it appear, he made a knotch in his walking stick
and now the total number of the knotches is 33.

Is that 33
the number of the Lunar years
or the Solar years?

Following is the dates* when he witnessed the scorching full moon.

The bedouin does not know the dates though,
only WE do:

July 05, 2001
Jun 25, 2002 --- 1
July 13, 2003
July 02, 2004
Jun 22, 2005 --- 2
July 11, 2006
Jun 30, 2007 --- 3
July 18, 2008
July 07, 2009
Jun 26, 2010 --- 4
July 15, 2011
July 03, 2012
Jun 23, 2013 --- 5
July 12, 2014
July 02, 2015 --- 6
July 20, 2016
July 09, 2017 --- 7
July 28, 2018
July 17, 2019

July 05, 2020
Jun 25, 2021 --- 8
July 13, 2022
July 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2024 --- 9
July 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2026 ---10
July 18, 2027
July 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2029 ---11
July 15, 2030
July 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2032 ---12
July 12, 2033

When the full moon comes 19 days LATER than the previous year
we know that the previous series of the full moons had 13 full moons,
and the 13th full moon caused the delay. (I numbered each for you.)

_________________________________________

* https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2001&country=74